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YEAH HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE, I WISH EVERYONE ON SUBTALK A HAPPY NEW YEAR, and GOOD LUCK IN 2001. LET THE SUBWAYS ROLL ON INTO THE NEW YEAR!
You Suck! I demand a re-clock! Hey, do you still want to come on our trip? Sorrt for mot getting to your e-mail in a timly fashion.
I hope everybody at SubTalk has a wonderful 2001 full of clear signals and free of delays. May all of your MetroCards be accepted on the first swipe.
HA, I was the first message of 2001. Beat that, I beat you by 28 seconds, HA HA! j/k
Christopher Rivera
Do you want to come on our trip?
Happy new year from the entire staff of
New York Area Railroads
(actually I am the entire stff, but what the hey)
I thank you all for visiting my site which has recieved 6,957 hits since July 1st, 2000 and I will improve it as time goes by.
Have a happy and prosperous New Year!
-Daniel C. Boyar :)
Happy New Year to all! May the new year bring great prosperity to all!
-cordially,
turnstiles
Tomorrow I am off to Union Hall to begin training for conductor. I will post details from what I encountered at this event.....
Train#1980Mike
Happy New Year to all. Be safe.
How about this idea?
Weekdays:
E-Qns Blvd Exp-53rd St
F-Qns Blvd Exp-63rd St-6th Ave
G-Qns Blvd Lcl-Crosstown
Q-Qns Blvd Exp-60th St-Broadway Exp
R-Qns Blvd Lcl-63rd St-Broadway Lcl
V-Qns Blvd Lcl-53rd St-6th Ave
Weekends:
E/F/G-Same as weekday
R-Local via 60th
Would you mind posting tph of your proposed plan or do you assume that QB line is made of rubber.
Arti
the E, F, and Q would be 9-10 tph, so can the G. Every week, I get on at Woodhaven Blvd at the beginning of PM rush, and there is so much time between trains on the local track, you can easily fit in another train. As for the express, you can lower the amount of Es a bit since I usually see two of them go by before an F at Roosevelt.
So, essentially all the services will be running 10 tph. This translates to 50 tph going into Manhattan, a net loss of 10 tph from the proposed routing scheme of an E, F, R and V each running at a nominal 15 tph.
would the R and V really run at 15tph. Personally, with the current R line, I could not imagine seeing an R every 4 minutes, and also see a new line run every 4 minutes.
I could not imagine seeing an R every 4 minutes, and also see a new line run every 4 minutes.
Is the prospect of not having to wait for a train so objectionable?
I'm not saying that I would rather wait for a train, but if an extra service, like the V is running, and it starts using up some of Jamaica's R46s, they'll have to take some away from all the others. It doesn't make sense for Queens Blvd riders to get trains into Manhattan every 1-2 minutes, and Crosstown riders to have to first make sure they are on a 53rd St train, and then to connect to what they want.
If you have two different 53rd St services, and esp when one serves the local stations on Queens Blvd. and Broadway, then I don't see how that is a problem. Passengers always should be aware of which train they're boarding, no matter where they get on the system.
Lets try this possibility, Have the G train go to and from smith 9th sts. to Parsons Archer ALL TIMES. Have both E & F trains go to 179th st. via EXP RUSH HOURS Have the R & V go to continental all times except for midnights. the E or F could go local during midnights. very simple the G would of course stay as a local. Only problem is what equipment R68/As?
You can't have the "G" go to Parsons/Archer at the present 10-11 minute headways (5-6 TPH). The mob scene would be catastrophic at Sutphin and Parsons Archer. You would have to increase "G" service markedly for your idea to work.
And increasing service on a line that doesn't directly serve Manhattan doesn't make sense.
-Hank
No one ever said to increase service on the "G", where did you get that idea from?
However, the residents of Greenpoint, Long Island City, Williamsburg, Bedford-Stuvysant, Cobble Hill, Boreum Hill, Vinegar Hill, Carroll Gardens, South Brooklyn and Red Hook would disagree with you.
Oh, and I didn't factor in the Queens communites that use the "G".
:)
You said that you wound need to increase service on the G to stretch the line to Parsons/Archer. Just page back a few lines in this thread.
-Hank
That reply was in response to the suggestion that the "G" run to Parsons/Archer, which wasn't my idea. I had said that if you were to run the "G" to Parsons/Archer, you would need to increase service.
I said for the "G" to properly serve Parsons/Archer, service obviously would have to be increased. My original idea was to run the "G" to 179.
Don't confuse the two ideas. My idea was to put the "G" to 179 at the same service level, not to run it to Parsons Archer under increased service.
What about all of those bus people at Parsons Blvd?
In order for this to work, you will reduce the number of trains which can cross into Manhattan, which was the whole point of the project. Most rush hour commuters at Jamaica Center are headed for Manhattan, some for Forest Hills' or LIC's commercial districts. They're not interested in a "G" train.
which is why the G should stop at Continental, and let the R keep going, which gives direct Manhattan service.
You're missing the point. The R already serves Manhattan. The purpose here is to increase total train frequency to Manhattan, which your idea would prevent.
Manhattan-bound Service before 63rd St Project service: 3 express trains (E, F,7-peak), 3 local (N,R, 7 local).
After "F" shifts to 63rd St and "V" is instituted: 3 express trains (same as above) and 4 locals (N,R, V and 7-local).
Again, running the G on the same track as the V and/or the R reduces the total number of trains you can run into Manhattan. That is why the V must remain clear of Queens Plaza.
But are they really going to increase service on the R, b/c right now the frequency of Rs is bad.
That depends on the public.
Why don't you show up to the public hearing and voice your concerns? You can even advocate for keeping the G train, and present your reasons. The MTA needs to hear from people.
The hearing on 63rd St Service is at:
Long Island City High School
14-30 Broadway, Long Island City, Queens
Closest subway stop: Broadway, N train.
Date and time: Tuesday, January 23, 2001, at 6PM
You can register to speak at the hearing until 7PM at the hearing itself, or send a letter requesting to register to:
Douglas Sussman
Deputy Director, Govt. and Community Relations
Metropolitan Transportation Authority
347 Madison Avenue
New York NY 10017
Telephone: (212) 878-7483
You can also send Mr. Sussman your written opinions about this plan, which will be included in the record for review. Even if you do that, you can (and should) still come to the hearing tospeak, and listen to others speak.
wouldn't it be better to have the R go to Parsons Archer and end the G at Continental?
Design capacity of the Queens Blvd. line is basicly 2 lines running express and two lines running local. The system can accomodate more service BUT there is a point where a single breakdown will paralyze things. The plan at hand takes the G out of the mix opening the local tracks for another local out of Manhattan. The E has to stay in 53rd St. (no other access to 8th Av.) and the R must stay in 60th St. to maintain local service from Queens Plaza. Moving the F to 63rd St. is feasible since the 6th Av local tracks feed both the 53rd St and 63rd St. Tunnels, but people are used to the F serving Queens Plaza. The Broadway Express Tracks are the best suited to a 63rd St. service since they are connected directly to 63rd St, and won't remix trains which separated back in Queens. Any other routing requires crossover moves which will delay service on Sixth Av, Broadway, or Queens Blvd (a no-no at rush hour).
Now there is this other factor called the Manhattan Bridge...
More people ride between QB and Manhattan during the rush hour than from QB to the crosstown all day. That's the justification.
You need more "E"s than "F"s with the addition of the "V" train because you will have 2 local trains serving the 6th Avenue line, and (if you cut the number of "E"s to 10), definitely not enough "E"s serving the 8th Avenue line. Remember the "E" is the train all commuters from Penn Station currently take to the 53rd St & Fifth Ave and 53rd/Lex stops. Running the "Q" into Queens would take up time needed by the "E" and "F" trains. If anything, run the "W" alternately to Ditmars and to 179th St, say maybe 5 TPH to each terminus. That would leave you with 14 "E"s and 11"F"s for the QB express line. Does QB need 3 local trains? How would you turn around both the "G" and "V" at Continental/71st during rush-hour withour creating a bottle-neck? I think that since "G" riders wil have free-transfer options to the "E","V" and now the "7" at Court Square, they should be happy.
I personally don't think the G should remain at Court Square. Court Square is not a proper terminal (just as Smith/9th is not either). John H. Delaney would turn in his grave if he could see what will become of once a key part of the original IND Crosstown Line. At the very least, maintain some element of service to Queens Blvd for the G. Here's how it might be done:
If 71st Avenue cannot handle the turnarounds from the G, run it to 179th, which has PLENTY of excess capacity for turnarounds. If the present G headways are kept (5-6 TPH, or an average frequency of every 10-11 minutes), I believe that R and V service can continue to operate on the Queens Blvd. corridor between Queens Plaza and 71st, without problems from the G, IF the G runs to 179. The timing must be exacting (keeping in mind the crossover the V must use east of Queens Plaza). The direct connection is saved.
Now, you might question about car shortages. According to the 10/99 car assignments (the most recent from Joe Korman's web site), you have the following spares:
SPARES:
R46: 88 AM, 128 PM
R68: 69 AM, 85 PM
R68A:32 AM & PM
R44: 66 AM & PM
R32: 104AM, 114 PM *
R40S:42 AM & PM
R40M:12 AM & PM
R38: 34 AM, 60 PM
R42: 56 AM & PM
As you can see, we have plenty of excess R units. Even taking into account cars undergoing SMS, which I doubt can be more than 30% of the spare car fleet, you still have a substantial number of spares available. On top of that, the R 143 order is a minimum of 200 units, and as I understand it, delivery should being shortly.
I am sorry, the "*" next to the R32 Spares was meant to tell you that some of the R32's are GE units assigned to Euclid/207. They still are spares nonetheless.
Al
Your idea does not address the fact thatoperating "G" service at Queens Plaza and points east reduces the frequency of "V" service (because they use the same track - you would have "V", "R" and "G" on the same track), which reduces the number of trains per hour the TA can send across the river to Manhattan. That is the whole point of this exercise.
If the TA, as part of the 63rd St project, had also enlarged the tunnel leading into Queens Plaza, and provided 6 tracks at Queens Plaza with the extra platforms (at lower level?) having a ramp to the crosstown line, then the "G" could operate to Queens Plaza on its own track and platform without interfering with "V" headways. But that would have added another $100-200 million to the project. And the "G" could still not travel east of Queens Plaza, because of the reasons stated above.
You can still put the "G" to 179, if they reduce the TPH from the present 5-6 to maybe 4 TPH. It would kill me to see a weekday train at 15 minute intervals, but it is a better choice than to turn trains at Court Square. I ride the "G" quite often, and the crowds coming into Queens from Northern Brooklyn warrant some other plan.
But each G train takes up a slot that a Manhattan-bound train could occupy. And since Manhattan is where the majority of the passengers are going, it makes more sense to do it the way the TA wants to do it now, than to satisfy a small group of people who use the G.
-Hank
Again, if the "G" is put on a reduced headway, it will not interfere with the "R" and "V" services. A "G" running 4 tph via IND local and turning at 179 will not interfere with the "R" and "V" services running from 71 to Queens Plaza.
In addition, this service plan does nothing to assist the passengers using the IND line EAST of 71st Avenue. Why doesn't the "V" or the "R" run to 179th, if the priority is Queens Blvd. passengers, as you state?
The priority is Manhattan passengers, not Queens Blvd passengers. The service pattern makes sense. Trains that run local from 179st-71ave run express from 71av to Manhattan. New local trains begin at 71ave. The trains that made 10 stops and are now full make 3 more stops, and go to their destinations. Empty trains make 10 more stops.
-Hank
"The priority is Manhattan passengers, not Queens Blvd passengers"
So by your logic, none of the Queens Blvd. passenegers count?
I like the plan exactly the way it is. It'd be nice if there were direct trains from my stop to school other than at night, but I'm not going to bitch and moan about it just because the MTA is doing something which doesn't help me. It's not that bad going 2 stops, crossing, and going 3 more.
Just to clear things up. The R143's will be assigned to the Canarsie Line (L) for CBTB testing. They should not be considered for use on Queens Blvd.
Shawn.
The entire order of at least 200 cars, with the option cars (another 200) will go to East New York???
Absolutely. The R143 will be exclusively used by the Eastern Division lines (J/L/M/Z).
Then the entire fleet or R40s, R40Ms, and R42s will be scrapped or transferred?
See manage a trois!
avid
The R-143s aren't replacing anything.
If they aren't replacing anything, and the fleet will go over 200 units, what is ENY going to do with the surplus MU cars?
By terminating the G at Court Square, the TA cuts 12 train operator and conductor jobs every weekday. And since the plan is to make the G a 24 hour OPTO line, that will eliminate a grand total of 36 C/R jobs every weekday.
Plus there will be fewer trains used which means greater maintenance savings.
Face it Italian Guy, since the people who live on the G line are unwilling to voice an objection to the plan and since the large majority of Greenpoint G line users transfer to the E/F anyway, the chances of the G still running to Queens Blvd are the same as the rebuilding of the Culver Shuttle. Zero.
How many of those jobs will go to the new V service? Not accounting for those?
How about the extra jobs for the double-service when the bridge goes down (yeah, I know it's temporary)?
How about the jobs from the nominal service increases soon to be enacted?
-Hank
My listing only takes into account the savings incurred by slashing G line service. By continuing G service into Forest Hills after the connector has opened, that is how many jobs would have to remain in addition to the V jobs that will be created. And to extend it to 179 St as the Italian Guy has suggested, those numbers would only inflate. And this would be for a service that would only hinder R/V line service.
Also the switchover of jobs from the G to the V would fall on the lap of the E line supt. who will officially become the E/V line supt.
In my opinion, the V line will have as many crews as the L line give or take a couple. Right now, the L line on the AM and PM tours uses 43 crews Monday-Friday, 32 on Saturday and 23 on Sunday.
Yes extend to 179, but cut service. I can't think of any other way to do it except the Court Square turnaround.
The are not unwilling, but unaware of the impending problem. None of the stations have posted any such community notice, or updates, in any language of the upcoming service plan changes.
With the logic of the service plan, one must wonder how 'service' can be used correctly.
Not true. I've seen posters on the buses, and several Queens Blvd stations. They've even got notices at Bronx stations on the 1/9! And with the change not occuring until August, there's no need for service change notices yet.
-Hank
There are no notices posted. I've been to 63rd Road, 67th Drive, Woodhaven Blvd. and Northern Blvd. stations yesterday alone, I only saw notices for E/F local G.O. routing. Nothing with regard to public hearings.
In addition, nothing on the public hearings on Greenpoint, Nassau Av., and all the Crosstown stations, except Bergen Street, where there were posters about the upcoming G.O. to turn G trains at Hoyt/Schemerhorn.
I don't like the idea of having 4 QB trains and 2 of them are 6th Avenue. There should be variety. All current lines are equally crowded all times. Also, 11 Fs isn't enough since it has to handle all the Culver line unless the V will help.
There is a variety. Of four Queens Blvd services involved in the 63rd St plan, two would serve 6 Av, one would serve 8 Av and one would serve Broadway - that's three different corridors.
And since 6th Ave is the most heavily-used (in terms of where people are going) it needs the extra service. THere's a graph below, that is likely from the late 80's, showing the relative loading on each line. If New Flyer thinks it's equal, s/he needs to get his/her prescription checked.
-Hank
All current lines are equally crowded all times.
Really?
ok
You need all those Es. The V will run with more tph than the G, and that "extra time" does not occur very often. In the AM rush, at its peak, there will often be 2 Rs, a G, and 2 more Rs, with hardly any breathing room.
What I think would be the best course of action would be to run the G to Court Sq during the rush, and other times to 71/Continental (or at least Queens Plaza, yes they can still turn trains there, obviously not during the rush since crossing from D2 to D1 requires blocking both express tracks).
The G to Continental during rush hour is not possible. To give you an idea on how strapped for cars Jamaica is during the AM rush, often Queensbound locals will be sent express to Continental because they have nothing to send out for a particular headway.
Anyone what "Subway Q & A" on Metro? They're running it all day today. Very entertaining. They're all over NYC on the subway asking people questions and doing funny things.
Yeah, I was watching some of it. It seems that they dont venture out of Manhattan that much. Only in a few cases such as:
1. On a 2 train heading to Flatbush. Trying to convince a girl to go on a date.
2. At 71-Continental. Complementing a girl on shoes.
3. At 161-YS on the 4. Trying to trade tickets.
4. Followed a Jamaican lady from the C train to the Q train to PP and then followed her home to Canarsie for jerk chicken.
5. One of the reporters was at Jay Street-MetroTech making station annoucements over the PA system.
6. Talking to token booth clerk at Utica Ave IND. Followed the clerk to Franklin Ave where they went into a pool hall.
These are all I can remember. Also they keep showing clips of the F and G at Smith/9 and the Franklin Shuttle.
Train#1981Mike
I'm been watching it on and off all day. I just wish that they had more questions about the actual train operations.
They had a scene inside the Track Geometry Car
Sorry, I think that show is LAME, they came up to me once on the D train a little while back and I told them to get lost.
Peace,
ANDEE
if you can get your hands on yesterdays sunday times section 11, the real estate section, there was a front page article with several pictures about the abandoned west side freight line...i was trying to put up a link to the nytimes website, but the article is already in their achives... the article continues onto a full page on page 6, with a large 1/3 of a page map of the existing structure and the names of the buildings that it connected to... there is also a black and white picture of a freight train running on ground level preceded by a flagman on a horse who was called a cowboy... i actually remember seeing that along 12th ave back maybe 40 years ago...
you maybe able to access the article through the new york public library free of charge....
This is a really long URL to it. It never asked me for a username and password or payment or anything. It does not include the map of the structure as you mentioned.
http://www.nytoday.com/scripts/editorial.dll?fromspage=re/RealEstate.htm&categoryid=&only=y&bfromind=18&eeid=3734865&eetype=article&render=y&ck=&ver=2.11
Shawn.
It works,but it might be easier just to
click.
Heypaul. There was also a similar piece on the Westside High Line organization in last week's VILLAGE VOICE.
The jest of the article was that the real estate moguls want to rip down the lines while the Westside group wants to either restore the tracks and use it as a lightrail operation, or replace the trackage with a paved roadway for bikers/roller bladers/skate-boarders and joggers.
Maybe those guys should seek out the aide of Bob Diamond and his Historic Railway Society?
BMTman
Anyone out there know how to get hold of Joe Testagrose, whose great pictures dot another part of this website? I'm interested in finding out if I can have a copy of two pictures he took for a tee shirt I want made up for me at our local shirt shop. If anyone knows how I can reach him or him me, please let me know.
According to the "about" section, his email is joet@nycsubway.org
That's an email forwarder, it should still work. Haven't talked to him in ages though...
-dave
I get email via my robby@nycsubway.org alias once in a while, when I reply does it still appear as the nycsubway.org address, or my primary one?
Well, that depends on what you put in your mail client software as your return address.
-dave
Joe Testagrose posts almost every day of the week in a a newsgroup:
alt.binaries.pictures.rail
I believe his e-mail address is:
joet1@worldnet.att.net
You might wanna go to the newsgroup and check for sure, though -- he usually posts a couple dozen rail shots every evening around 9 p.m. EST (6 p.m. PST is when they always show up).
Happy January everyone!
...MARTA's base fare is now $1.75, up $0.25 from $1.50.
Other fare media increases:
Weekend Transcard: was $8.00, now $9.00
Weekly: $12, now $13
Monthly: $45, now $52.50
roll of 20 tokens: $20, now $30
old person discount: $0.75, now $0.85
Student pass: now $10
University pass (U-pass): now $37
Read MARTA's justification. I think it's worth it.
How much are train/bus transfers? Or do you need a Transcard?
Transfers are free. You just press a transfer button at the turnstile to get a bus transfer, or ask for a bus or rail transfer when you get on a bus.
at the destinators club on yahoo, one of the members posted the following list of r44/46 roll sign readings and asked the meaning of the diamond and circles... did a diamond denote something other than rush hour service then?
1. White Airplane in Light Blue circle
2. A (White in Blue circle)
3. C (White in Blue circle)
4. H (White in Blue circle)
5. E (White in Blue circle)
6. F (White in Orange circle)
7. G (White in Light Green circle)
8. R (Black in Yellow circle)
9. S (Black in Yellow Circle)
10. W (Black in Yellow diamond)
11. N (Black in Yellow circle)
12. B (Black in Yellow circle)
13. D (Black in Yellow circle)
14. Q (Black in Yellow circle)
15. D (White in Orange circle)
16. Q (White in Orange circle)
17. B (White in Orange circle)
18. K (White in Blue circle)
19. S (White in Orange circle)
20. V (White in Orange circle)
21. M (White in Brown circle)
22. R (White in Brown diamond)
23. J (White in Brown circle)
24. Z (White in Brown circle)
25. L (White in Gray circle)
26. S (White in Gray circle)
27. Not In Service (Two line, "Not In" and "Service"
28. Special
29. Shuttle
All have a black background. 27, 28 and 29 are white lettering.
Does anybody know the difference for the circles and diamonds?
Those are the current sign readings. The was a rush hour special, and the was also originally planned to be a rush hour special from Astoria to Whitehall, when the goes over the bridge.
But the yellow diamond "W" will still run as rush hour line when they finish the MB repair work until 2004. So we should see the "W" run between Astoria & Whitehall St around 2004.
HAPPY NEW YEAR
My site has the same readings for R42 end signs!
Take a look.
Funny how the four back to back 8th Ave. blue signs spell the word "ACHE".
COOL! You have to do the R-30-38 (current) sign. I once had one, but couldn't do anything with it because it was so long (tried to unravel it from an attic to take a picture of the whole thing, but it was still taller than the 3 story house! So I sold it off at an ERA auction).
It pretty much follows the R-42 pattern, except that since it has the route information, it has alot of variants such as
B.(orange circle)..6th Av/West End
...................West End Shuttle
..(orange diamond).Wash Hts/6th Av/West End
...................Wash Hts/6th Av
..(yellow circle)..Broadway/West End
...................West End Shuttle
..(Yellow Diamond).Astoria/Bway/West End
Could somebody tell me what was the car equipment used on the old Rockaway Shuttle "H" line?
HAPPY NEW YEAR
Usually whatever ended up down there from the A and E lines - mostly R1/9's, occasional R10's over the duration. But largely whatever they had ...
At the end, in 1988 and 1989, the equipment on the "H" was GOH green R10s. The shuttle, which still runs today, and is marked "S" but from what I understand is officially known in NYCT as "H" (when it comes to picks, I would guess), is made up of at least three four-car sets of R44 equipment. One of these bunches is 5330-31-33-32.
wayne
My wish to get the SOAC set for this shuttle went down the tubes when they went to Kennibunkport mueseum. I would have loved to see that set boggie across the raunt just after the snow stopped , sending up a cloud of loose snow flakes in a dual vortex behind. The sweet sound of the weeping and wailing and knashing of teeth of the stahlworth fans of the slant 40s bemoaning their stint in the purgatory of slug-ish Canarsie line. Unique and picturesque, but a slugway. Thats the dream for today. Its almost as good as Viagra!
Mush! Mush! Mush you SOACs , Mush!
avid
R10's. Only once did I see anything else, and that was a train of R38's, pre GOH.
Ricohet MetroCard
went on sale today at 7am. I am grouping statiosn to save space.if A LINE IS NOT LISTED THE CARD IS NOT AVAILABLE ON THAT LINE
59--A,B,C,D,1,4,5,6,N,R
50-A,C,E
w 4- All
Broadway-Nassau/Fulton-2,3,4,5,A,C,J,M,Z
47-50--B,D,F,Q
34--B,D,F,Q,N,R,1,2,3,9
23--F,N,R,1,9,6
Broadway-Lafayette/Bleecker--6,D,F
53/5th--E,F
51/Lex--E,F,6
49-N,R
28--N,R,1,9,6
14--N,R,4,5,6,L,1,2,3,9
8--N,R
City Hall--N,R
Cortlandt--N,R,1,9
Whitehall-N,R
3 av--L
50--1,9
42--1,2,3,9,7,N,R,S
18--1,9
Chambers--1,9
Wall--2,3,4,5
Rector--N,R,1,9
S Ferry--1,9
Grand Central--4,5,6,7,S
33--6
Astor--6
Brooklyn Bridge--4,5,6,J,M,Z
Bowling Green--4,5
DISCLAIMER: A booth scheduled to get the cards might not get the cards and booths not listed may get the cards due to transfer of cards by supervision. Part-time booths at a listed station might not get thew cards. For best chances go to the main full-time booth.
typo- the card is a Ricochet MetroCard. No photos available-the bulletins never show us whatt he card looks like.
Also note--the SUbway Series promotion for MVMs has been **cancelled**
What is this new Metrocard? Is it like a "look on the back and win" or is it a Metrocard with different Terms of Use then the already exsisting cards?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" You know the rest lol
Now that it's a new year, I have some words of wisdom for all New Yorkers. Following them will make your lives happier. Disbelieve them at your risk:
1. There is no ironclad law of nature which says that it's impossible to expand transit systems. Other cities around the country are able to do so. New York can too.
2. You can put out a fire by smothering it with dirt. You cannot solve all social problems by smothering them with taxpayer money.
3. John Lindsay, advocate of the limousine liberal philosophy, died nearly broke, having to beg the city for a fake job just so he could get health insurance. Limousine liberalism is similarly bankrupt.
4. The Times is just a newspaper, a hopelessly ideological one at that. It is not a guide to life.
5. The Dodgers are perfectly happy in Los Angeles. They aren't coming back to Brooklyn.
6. All the whining about Census "undercounts" doesn't obscure the fact that the Sunbelt won and New York lost. Get used to it.
7. Coney Island will never again see its glory days of the 1950's. People today go to Disney World or Six Flags.
8. Old Penn Station is lost and gone forever.
9. Assuming that businesses will pay huge premiums to locate in New York because the city's full of art museums and symphony orchestras is less logical than believing in the Easter Bunny.
10. The world does not end at the Hudson River. Millions and millions of people have happy lives out there in the land of Interstates, single-family subdivisions and Wal-Marts.
11. Don't get too complacent about the city's low crime rate. Things can change, very quickly. Just one or two highly publicized incidents will change perceptions 180 degrees.
Geez, Pete, sounds like you don't like it here. You can always take advantage of national policy and follow your federal tax dollars elsewhere.
New York City and state government do provide a worse deal for those who aren't insiders than most places do. But the City itself is sufficiently superior to have overcome it, thus far. As for the rest of the country, all you have to do is catch a cold at watch some weekday television on UPN 9 and you'll NEVER want to go there.
Geez, Pete, sounds like you don't like it here. You can always take advantage of national policy and follow your federal tax dollars elsewhere.
New York City and state government do provide a worse deal for those who aren't insiders than most places do. But the City itself is sufficiently superior to have overcome it, thus far. As for the rest
of the country, all you have to do is catch a cold at watch some weekday television on UPN 9 and you'll NEVER want to go there.
As I'd said to Sea Beach Fred, I'm more or less stuck in New York. If I had no ties, and could relocate anywhere at will, Phoenix probably would be my first choice, although I'd consider Denver or Dallas as well. I've never been to any of them, but from what I've heard they sound like pretty terrific places.
Phoenix is a miserable, smog-bound city where very little green things grow, mostly desert sands, boulders and rocks, and hideous saguaro cactus growing even on people's front lawns. Don't be fooled by the old saw "It's dry heat" - when it's 116 degrees, you feel it, and it feels like a bloody oven. Just take a ride up Squaw Peak and gaze down on the brown miasma which envelops most everything below. No mass transit either, just a fleet of diesel-belching buses (they may be using CNG buses by now), trucks, and zillions of cars. It's like LA only worse - no ocean, just desert.
wayne
Gotta agee with Wayne. I've been out to Vegas where a friend and his wife relocated. They were pressing me to move out there. Sure, I loved the sun and the cool evenings -- BUT -- I told them that I'd die of boredum within two years of moving out there because there is very little to do out there if you're not into casinos. Also, I'd go bonkers w/o the beauty of the change in seasons. I love the weather of the northeast where we get a true smorgisbord (sp/) of weather conditions which makes it interesting.
Besides, Vegas doesn't know the meaning of "mass transit".
BMTman
I love the weather of the northeast where we get a true smorgisbord (sp/) of weather conditions which makes it interesting.
It also makes you appreciate the summer.
I can't stand heat, I run the air conditioner well into October and run the ceiling fan (since our only A/C is central) into December.
Lucky for me, most entertaining cities (New York, Boston, Chicago, et al.) are in the cold world.
Come on Pork! No one in their right mind can love the weather you guys are getting right now. Change is seasons is fine; I'm looking forward to spending some fall time in New England. However, when it gets five and zero and below that, well, I don't think anyone can like that. I don't miss those winters at all.
I love cold weather. The colder the better. Its just gotten to the point where my local lake froze and I can go walking out on it w/o falling through. Its above freezing today so I hope its still safe wo walk on it tonight. Its easier to warm up from cold weather than to cool down from hot weather. You just add layers and if that dosen't work you start exercising. Also its alot easier to build a fire than a central airconditioning system. Also when its cold you can boost your matabolism and you can eat everything you want and not get fat. I've turned the heat off in my room to further that goal.
Also, it's cheaper to run the heater, and the heating up process is faster than the A/C.
In the winter, I can turn off the climate control system (I set the program to 19 degress, it's only on when the actual temperature is lower than the desired temperature) at night because I have blankets and fall asleep before the temperature change at 2 AM. In the summer I have to set the A/C to 41 (opposite of the above) ALL THE TIME! And the summer is the time that I actually let the meter reader into the house.
All the snow we have on Long Island right now is absolutely beautiful. True last Saturday it was hard to get to work but I managed. It is worth it just to look at all the picture postcard scenery. And its really great to go outside with my 4 yr old son Arthur and play in the snow. And a couple of months ago the leaves on the trees were such beautiful colors while driving on the Northern State Pkway. Now the same trees are all snowy and beautiful.
These will be your son "Good old days", ain't life grand!
avid
Indeed. Right now I'm back in my beloved Livingston, MT where I called home for 13 years. About 3 weeks of bad hot weather, 3 weeks of bad cold weather but otherwise much like NYC normally the seasons aren't too extreme. Beautiful mountains too...great if you can make a living [IF!] and if you can stand high wind for much of the winter...every time a warm front comes in. Warm/hot all year...those who want the sunbelt can keep it.
As for Mr. Rosa's post: there's good and bad about every place. [Good riddance JVL too] When I visited mom for her last days lst March I almost thought "I cold live here again" but in reality I could never afford to again and still love the west too much . But I do wish I could ride the trains places instead of driving everywhere for one. I got to love the people in Chicago [then theres the L], San Fran is neat. But weighing everything if mostly for its size I still have to rate NYC as Number one. Almost anything you wish to do can be enjoyed, to pick up someone else thought there is the ocean; except for Seattle where else could you have something as beautiful as the Staten Island ferry at night, etc? Hope it never gets like it was when I left in 1977. Peple get used to what is around them and it gets overlooked easily. No place is perfect.
Big Ed: So you are a Westerner. I knew there was something about you that I liked. What I miss in New York is the subway, I'll be right up front with that. What I do not miss is the cold weather. I find it easier to cool off than warm up, so to me California is just fine.
Hmmm...wouldn't a nice 3 track el structure down Indian School Road be a nice touch....
I agree 100%. I was in Phoenix a couple years ago and the whole city is one giant parking lot interrupted by the occasional McDonald's or Wal-Mart store. On top of that, most of the people I met there seem about as authentic as their manicured lawns. But to each his own. (In all fairness, the rest of Arizona outside of Phoenix and Tucson is incredibly beautiful. If Oak Creek Canyon doesn't make a person believe in God, nothing will.)
As for Dallas, two hours at DFW Airport was about two hours too much of Texas for me.
New York certainly isn't perfect, and as a proud Chicagoan I've taken more than a few stabs at the Big Rotten Apple (mostly in good fun), but I still respect New York as a great city and I'd pick the South Bronx any day of the week over Phoenix.
Oh well... Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, I guess.
-- David
Chicago, IL
As for Dallas, two hours at DFW Airport was about two hours too much of Texas for me.
How can you tell anything about a city - let alone a whole state - from a couple of hours at the airport?
Well, let's just say that my first impression of Texas would have been a lot better if they spent a little less money on cowboy boots and belt buckles and a little more money on some books and dental work. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
(Well, let's just say that my first impression of Texas would have been a lot better if they spent a little less money on cowboy
boots and belt buckles and a little more money on some books and dental work. :-))
WRONG. Thanks to the Census of Governments, I can now refute almost any misperception with authority. In FY 97, the people of Texas spent 5.11 percent of their income on taxes to support public education, well above the national average of 4.51. Georgia is also above average, with Arizona slightly below. This is the proper measure of education spending, because is accounts for the cost of living -- ie. New Jersey may spend more per pupil, but the higher cost of living (which correlates with higher incomes) means it has to in order to attract the same quality teachers.
How about the VAMPIRE STATE? I've got some good news and bad news. The good news is that overall New York's spending as a share of income is the same as Texas. The bad news is that whereas spending in Texas is relatively equal across the state, spending in New York is the second most unequal in the U.S. As a result, New York City's spending on public education would be 49 out of 50 states. Only Hawaii, where results are skewed by a large number of income earning retirees and expats relative to the number of children -- pays less.
There's one potential problem with your analysis: Texas has no income tax, unlike New York. The US as a whole figured out a long time ago that making everybody pay the same percentage of tax regardless of income places a disproportionate burden on the middle, lower-middle and lower income classes. Texas relies on consumption taxes, which are inherently regressive (greater burden on the poor). So in essence there is a transfer of wealth from poor to rich.
If schools in Texas are funded primarily by property taxes (and I don't live there, so I don't know that for a fact), then there would be an opportunity to partially corrct for the above inequity by assessing higher tax rates on wealthier properties - so long as a portion of those taxes went into a state fund to be redistributed to less wealthy areas. In general though, poorer areas tend to assess higher per-mil property taxes, so again the poor get screwed. The presence of a lottery to fund education only worsens that.
No, Larry, the proper way to measure education spending (or transit spending, or health care spending) is not purely by proportion of income. It is by proportion of income relative to wealth and to the poverty line. Additionally, the presence or absence of local resources should be considered. For example, the Beverly Hills school district, with many wealthy parents, ample property taxes and fund-raisers, in California, earns $750,000 a year in royalties from crude oil pumped from under the campus. The Compton School District, which is beset by poverty and gangs, has no such supplemental income.
It would be better to define what amount is needed to provide the lowest acceptable level of service in a particular state based on cost of living, then see how well a school district measures up to that. If they fall below, maybe the state needs to step in to address that.
Texas did fund its school systems for years almost wholly on the basis of local property taxes, which was challenged by a poor school district near San Antonio (Edgewood ISD) in the late 1980s. Back then, property- or oil-rich schools could be spending over $7,000 per pupil, while the poorest districts might only have a per-pupil spending rate of around $2,000. The courts told the Texas Legislature that had to change.
The Legislature, under then-governor Ann Richards, came up with what was dubbed the "Robin Hood" plan, in which a group of wealthy and poor school districts (usually two to eight) would be grouped together, with the richer schools transfering their property taxes directly to the poorer ones through these education districts. While it satisfied the Edgewood decision, many of the richer school districts sued, claiming the plan was unconstitutional because their districts were being taxed to pay for other district's kids. The court sided with those districts, and the plan was thrown back into the Texas Legislature's lap in 1997, after Bush became governor.
The plan Bush and the Democratic-controlled legislature came up with, and wihch is in use now, again pools property taxes, but with a difference -- Texas assumes all school districts will set a tax rate of at least $1.50 per $100 valuation in order to receive the maximum state funding. If richer school districts don't want to set their tax rates that high, then the assumption is, they don't need as much state aid, and don't get it.
It also allows a little flexibility on spending, in that richer schools can still spend more than poor schools, but there has to be a minimum per-pupil spending amount for every school district in the state. Not a perfect solution, but it worked well enough to avoid court challeges and get Bush re-elected in a landslide in 1998.
In FY 97, the people of Texas spent 5.11 percent of their income on taxes to support public education, well above the national average of 4.51.
I hope they saved their receipt. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Phoenix is a miserable, smog-bound city where very little green things grow, mostly desert sands, boulders and rocks, and hideous saguaro cactus growing even on people's front lawns. Don't be fooled by the old saw "It's dry heat" - when it's 116 degrees, you feel it, and it feels like a bloody oven. Just take a ride up Squaw Peak and gaze down on the brown miasma which envelops most everything below. No mass transit either, just a fleet of diesel-belching buses (they may be using CNG buses by now), trucks, and zillions of cars. It's like LA only worse - no ocean, just desert.
Dunno ... Phoenix may not be perfect, but an awful lot of people are voting with their feet, so to speak. Its low cost of living and superb job market - two areas in which New York is obviously very deficient - must make up for other disadvantages.
By the way, while I'm not 100% sure, I believe that light rail is in the planning stages, hopefully there'll be some real transit before long.
"Its low cost of living and superb job market - two areas in which New York is obviously very deficient"
The Federal gov't taxes the northeast & midwest and subsidizes the mountain west.
It's interesting that high cost of living of something that you decry.
One has to afford high cost of living, and since I don't see as many abandoned buildings with FOR RENT signs in Manhattan, somebody wants to pay that, when they can easily afford to move. High cost of living definitely has a lot to do with market forces.
Hey Mr R40: When you knock LA, remember we have beautiful beaches and mountains with cool air-----only an hour from each other. It was 82 degrees today. What you say about Phoenix is your business, but I will not let you berate Metropolitan Los Angeles. The city itself does leave a lot to be desired, but Los Angeles is more than the city------A lot more.
Hey Mr R40: When you knock LA, remember we have beautiful beaches and mountains with cool air-----only an hour from each other. It was 82 degrees today. What you say about Phoenix is your business, but I will not let you berate Metropolitan Los Angeles. The city itself does leave a lot to be desired, but Los Angeles is more than the city------A lot more.
You should move to Atlanta. Thousands upon thousands of New Yorkers move here every year, primarily to the suburbs. It seems that no one who lives in Atlanta is from Atlanta. I hardly know anyone who was actually born in Georgia. Makes me wonder who these "rednecks" are that people think we are.
Think it's a fellow named John Rocker ... and we've got a #7 train waiting for a gap on him ...
Makes me wonder who these "rednecks" are that people think we are.
I don't call Atlantans Rednecks, I reserve those kinds of epithets for the baseball team.
Yeah, but in Atlanta the subway doors freeze shut on cold days. I heard that from someone on this board, someone in California!
LOL, I know. Also paper transfers fall apart in the rain.
(Thousands upon thousands of New Yorkers move here every year, primarily to the suburbs. It seems that no one who lives in Atlanta is from Atlanta. I hardly know anyone who was actually born in Georgia. Makes me wonder who these "rednecks" are that people think we are.)
This is a point often missed by those who assume that the country is becomming more conservative because conservative areas are growing. They are growing with migrants and immigrants, and thus their character is changing. New Yorkers aren't losing representation. They are represented in North Carolina and Georgia, where they now live.
I don't know what is meant by Redneck, but both North Carolina and Georgia are far more progressive -- in the sense of seeking ways to make government work better -- than New York. In New York small cliques of interests have grabbed power and won't let go -- they are fleecing and fleeing. Elections in NC and GA are competitive.
As for the real Redneck states, they aren't doing so well. Oklahoma and Mississippi lost a seat, Alabama and Tennesee are a long way from gaining one.
This is a point often missed by those who assume that the country is becomming more conservative because conservative areas are growing. They are growing with migrants and immigrants, and thus their character is changing. New Yorkers aren't losing representation. They are represented in North Carolina and Georgia, where they now live.
This begs the question: do New Yorkers who move to the Sunbelt remain liberal, or do they become more conservative (or liberatarian) in their new locations? I don't know the answer, although I do suspect that the typical relocating New Yorker is already less likely to be a liberal than his or her counterparts who remain behind.
1) Nearly impossible.
2) Very few NYC democrats believe that, and even if they do, they dare not say it publicly.
3) Even his obituaries state in kind words that he was more image than substance.
4) The don't even try to hide their liberal bias anymore.
5) Don't tell Howard Golden that.
6) No surprise here, we've been losing seats sice at least 1970.
7) See #5.
8) And it's demolition created (for better or worse) NYC's Landmarks Preservation laws.
9) No good liberal wants to hear that.
10) See #6
11) It all depends on the next mayor, not too comforting is it?
It all depends on the next mayor, not too comforting is it?
That mayor could be (of all people) Bernie Goetz. Now granted his handgun was licensed and he killed in self defense, but still...will it become illegal NOT to have a gun on the subway? -Nick
That mayor could be (of all people) Bernie Goetz. Now granted his handgun was licensed and he killed in self defense, but still...will it become illegal NOT to have a gun on the subway?
I would actually vote for him and send him a bribe campaign contribution.
I might consider myself a liberal from time to time (I'm really a radical libertarian, and I've already discussed that) but on the matter of gun control, I'm firmly in the right, along with a bunch of other things (like nearly all economic issues, that's what a libertarian is).
That mayor could be (of all people) Bernie Goetz. Now granted his handgun was licensed and he killed in self defense, but still...will it become illegal NOT to have a gun on the subway? -Nick
Accuracy Police ("You Have the Right to Post Silently") Time:
Goetz's gun was not licensed and he didn't kill anyone.
He attempted to get a license, but since he was mugged in the past, the police wouldn't give him one. One of the people he shot was permanently crippled, but noone died.
No political statements intended in above comments.
2) Sure you can. The amount of money needed just grows like 1/(1-x) where x is the % of the problem solved. You can do anything with enough money. For examples I cite the moon landing and the Q2.
4) The Times is a guide to life only if combined with the infinite wisdon of Ted Kopel each weekday night.
5) See #2. If NYC bought the Dodgers they would return.
8) See #2. If NYC dumped the stupid plans for the 2nd ave subway they could rebuild Penn Station. PENN STATION WILL RETURN!!!!!
10) From my point of view the world does end at the Hudson River. The only thing EAST of it is a bunch of soggy rats.
11) The incident will probably be the murder of 2 college students early in the morning of Jan 10th.
5) See #2. If NYC bought the Dodgers they would return.
no they would not! In order for a baseball team to move 2/3 of all owners have to approve it. There is no way baseball would let L.A. not have a baseball team. It is also agains leage rules to have a team move into the same city that a team already plays in. So unless the mets and yanks both go to jersey they won't move back.
Dan - big time Red Sox fan.
Ok, NYC could buy the team and either bribe the owners to move it or change the name. They could then get the Mets to change their name to the Dodgers and build the next stadium in Booklyn.
Why can't people in new york get over the fact that the dogers are gone? They left 43 years ago and half the people who want them back can't never saw them play in New York. Yu got the mets to replace the Dogers. In boston the braves moved away and we got no team to replace them. So what if they were the TEAM OF THE 90s People in boston Love the team we have win or losse unlike all of you yanks fans.
I'm not one of those people who thinks that the Dodgers should move back to Brooklyn.
I'm one of those people who thinks the NL/AL monopoly should be dissolved (yes, I know the Supreme Court ruled in favor of them).
Watch out for Steinbrenner. He seems determined to leave the Bronx. Whatever negative historical traits I have towards the Bronx and the Yankees, the Yankees belong in the Bronx. To see them playing in New Jersey is anathema to me. But both NY football teams play there, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility. I don't think the Mets would leave New York, though. Think if the Dodgers did return to NY if the Yankees went to Jersey. You'd have a helluva rivalry spring up between the Dodgers and Mets. It would be like the old Giant=Dodger rivalry of decades ago-----which I can tell you was the most rabid and vicious rivalry in all sports. And with Fox, you never know. I live in California but have never taken to the LA version of the Dodgers. I love my state, but I can tell you categorically that LA fans are the dumbest, least informed fans in all of baseball. They come in the 3rd, leave in the 7th, and eat all the time they're there. I wouldn't miss the Dodgers at all.
11) The incident will probably be the murder of 2 college students early in the morning of Jan 10th.
Where will you be at 3 AM? I'm told heypaul needs to make plans...
Slowly, slowly he turned... toward Niagara Falls...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The incident [that rekindles fear of crime in NYC] will probably be the murder of 2 college students early in the morning of Jan 10th.
Hmmm ... now that's being very specific. If there really is such a murder, expect a visit from NYPD detectives :-)
Seriously, it's sort of surprising that the Nicole Barrett brick attack did not do severe damage to the city's reputation. It got considerable nationwide publicity, featured an attractive girl-next-door victim, and was frighteningly random. Yet the whole incident seems to have blown over fairly quickly. I suppose one factor was the victim's refusal to blame the city, in fact she tried to move back to her apartment in Queens, though her lingering disabilities made that unworkable.
4. The Times is just a newspaper, a hopelessly ideological one at that. It is not a guide to life.
I got a 2001 New York Times Almanac for Christmas. I LOVE stats. I wanted specifically that one becasue it has subway stats. However, reading other things, like political stuff, they do tend to have a bias in it. Having bias in a newspaper is one thing, but having bias in an almanac is very unacceptable, whether I agree or not. Dan is right, they don't even try to hide it. Raw statistics shouldn't be biased what so ever.
What figures are they biased on?
I shouldn't have siad raw stats. They are biased on interperting them. It's really political stuff that you see it. For example, on page 259, talking about the Census:
...the Census Bureau sought to use statisical sampling methods to enumerate the hardest-to-count 10 percent of the population...Republicans in congress challenged the plan, fearing that an acturate count of the country's minority population would erode GOP numbers.
For someone reading this, it sounds like the Republicans do not want an accurate count and that statistical sampling will solve all the counting problems. They do not explain what it is. I personally don't know how statiscal sampling works. So all I see is that Repubicans are dishonest and they fear accuracy. If I were writing it, I would explain that statistical sampling has been considered and then go on to explain what it is. Let the reader decide if statistical sampling is a better way.
I love points 2,3 and 11. Just wait until a Democratic Mayor gets in! Crime will go through the roof, and Rudy G will once again become the Mayor in 2005. I think they elect a new one this year and in 2005.
I want Bill Clinton to run for Mayor. It would be a 4 year party.
Sounds more like a DEMOCRATIC party to me. :~O
Hillary would KILL him if he did, assuming she has intentions on running for president in 2004. Try to imagine the spin the Republicans would give the rest of the country about where their tax dollars would go if the Democratic presidental nominee's husband was mayor of New York. It might not be true, but it would be really effective.
She's not going to run for president in 2004. I think Al Gore is going to make a comeback. "Gore in 4" is a killer slogan.
She's not going to run for president in 2004. I think Al Gore is going to make a comeback. "Gore in 4" is a killer slogan.
I dunno if Gore will run again, but Hillary will not run for President until 2008 because she intends to fulfill her full senate term, which ends in 2006. But when the time comes, she may be running against Jeb Bush...if the nation doesn't blame him for the Florida fiasco. Look out though for a 3rd party candidate in 2004; Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura. -Nick
Look out though for a 3rd party candidate in 2004; Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura.
What a thought ...
Vice President, The Rock.
Secretary of State, Goldberg.
Chief of Staff, Mankind.
Don't laugh at Ventura. I certainly don't agree with all his positions, and he can be a bit TOO outspoken. (There IS a difference between not kissing voter ass and purposely pissing off large portions of the people with no benefit from it.) But from a rail & transit standpoint, he's pretty good. He actively shepherded Twin Cities light rail through a hostile legislature and has supported Minnesota's participation in the Midwest Regional Rail plan.
Minnesotans are not stupid. They were disenchanted with the two majors, Jesse is colorful, but no dummy. He tends to say what he feels, and the press still can't quite figure him out. He totally lacks the political habit of saying publicly neutral things for public consumption, which makes him exactly like 90% of the world.
He must have bought the Advanced Ronald Reagan Model of Teflon, 'cause he says things and does stuff that would crucify a normal politician and NOTHING sticks!!!
And, he supports RAIL!!!!
If the Vampire State had somebody like Jesse in Albany, NYC would have the Second Avenue Subway, the 42nd Street Light Rail would be a reality and the Long Island would be electrified everywhere.
The time for another Govonorship has arrived.......
Bill Clinton for NEW YORK STATE GOVERNOR!
Lets stay on the front page of every paper in the world and lets have a permenant segment of CNN >
avid
Bill Clinton for NEW YORK STATE GOVERNOR!
Won't it be hard for him to run the state from Sing Sing?
Don't worry, though...if you want a socialist leftist democrat in Albany, you won't have to look much farther than Cuomo-the-Lesser. He'll probably take up the cause next time 'round.
pjd
He'd be better than Guilliani!!!
He'd be better than Guilliani!!!
But only at sucking and being a crappy mayor.
[But only at sucking and being a crappy mayor.]
No one can even come close to Rudy in that respect.
No one can even come close to Rudy in that respect.
Of course nobody can, they're all far and away worse (or better, if we want to avoid double negatives).
1)Easy to say, hard to apply - though that's no excuse.
5)Let ehm stay there. there's too many people here as it is.
6)Sunbelt? Smogbelt sounds a little more appropriate.
7)People said that about Times Squaure. Now it IS disneyland.
8)Yes, and that's why they're converting the post office...
9)Heh... heheh... HAHAHA!
10)...and many of them people are married to their cousins, living in trailers.
11)Good. Maybe then we can shake some of the annoying tourists.
All in good fun:
The Joe
Without a healthy city core, a lot of suburbs start sucking turtle eggs. You may like it at first, but then you wonder why you ever bothered.
Land is not an inexhaustible commodity, and when markets and regulators appropriately assign costs to subdivisions reflecting what has been done to it, consumers everywhere will have a much more fair comparison of city vs. suburban living.
That looks like a list from Uncle Scrooge...
That looks like a list from Uncle Scrooge...
It's hard not to be Scrooge-like when it comes to New York.
I thought of a good analogy. New York (mainly the city, but the state to some extent) is like a person who is diabetic, with extremely high blood pressure, yet who is grossly overweight, gorges himself with junk food, drinks liquor like it's going out of style, and smokes three packs of Camels a day. In other words, slow suicide.
and smokes three packs of Camels a day.
Camels SUCK ever since they got rid of Joe Camel. Joe Camel's death is a direct result of pressure from "babysitter" governments.
BRING BACK JOE CAMEL!
If not as the cigarette product mascot, then as a children's cartoon(with cigarette firmly in mouth).
Camels SUCK ever since they got rid of Joe Camel. Joe Camel's death is a direct result of pressure from "babysitter" governments.
BRING BACK JOE CAMEL!
Wouldn't you prefer Henry Hog?
I'm afraid I have to object to your conservative indoctrination. I respect your opinions, but it is very, very arogant to call them "lessons for all New Yorkers".
2. No. Money isn't the be-all and end-all answer to all social problems. But you can't do much of anything about them without it. Education and other social services require competent and focussed management, but they also require money. Teachers and Social Workers provide vital and underappreciated serices to the public---and they can't live on tax cuts! Schools require books, and classrooms and teachers to reduce class size. Money money money. These things don't appear out of nowhere.
3. OK. So what if he was more vision than substance. Granted, we need doers, but we also need leaders who see the big picture, and who can see beyond pragmatic politics.
And I object to the term "limosine liberal"--Are you trying to say that liberals are sheltered and naiive? That is not your judgement to make--any more than I could make a judgement on your politics.
4. OK. The New York Times has a political bias. Show me a newspaper that hasn't! I get nauseous at the sheer one-sided propoganda the NEw York Post dishes out. At least the Times tells the whole story.
Andrew
Don't get too complacent about the city's low crime rate. Things can change, very quickly
While I do support mayor Giuliani, I certainly do not give him all the credit for the city's low crime rate at the moment. Take a look around people, crime is down in the entire country...and no, I'm not giving Bubba credit for that either. Crime is low because the # of males age 18-25 is at its lowest rate in decades....once that # increases, we'll be watching out for ourselves even more. -Nick
Crime is low because the # of males age 18-25 is at its lowest rate in decades....once that # increases, we'll be watching out for ourselves even more.
No, it's because the number of black people is at its lowest point in decades. You know those niggaz* are responsible for all of America's crime.
I was kidding, unfortunately, a lowlife like Nick was not.
*I apologize if that offended someone, I was only trying to show how stupid any kind of prejudice is, since for most of us racism against blacks is out of style (and ageism against the young unfortunately isn't).
Now that my anger at the comments has somewhat died down, I must say that I don't Nick or where he's coming from, so the "lowlife" comment refers only to this specific idea of his (and everybody else who believes it too). Not the person.
Sometimes I should think more before posting, but what can you do when something is so blatantly horrible?
This is a generic answer to the immediately preceding question. It should be applied to everyone, not just Pork.
Just pretend this is a real face-to-face conversation and think what would happen if you said something to that person's face, ie would he continue to argue or smack you upside the head. If the latter, than don't post it!
Pork: the other white trash meat -
Apparently you're unaware of the study published last year whose purpose was to explain the decrease in the crime rate. The panel hypothesized [note] that the increased use of birth control and abortion by low socio-economic single girls had led to a substantially lower number of boys between 13 and 20 who had raised themselves without benefit of family. Since this is the group that commits the most crimes per capita, the crime rate decreased. Nick left out the socioeconomic considerations from his post and appeared to post an ageist slur.
(note): the panel was too surprised by the results to call it a conclusion; people from the political and religious right have tried to shoot it down, thus far unsuccessfully.
It's not a surprise that people from a poor, single parent family would be more likely to commit crimes. There's no reason that people should be judged because they happen to be in the same "group." People should be judged as individuals and not through stupid classifications of age, sex, race, etc.
And where do you get off calling me white trash? All I was trying to point out is how there is no real difference between racism and ageism.
That was just in response to the word that you used. By striking the word, I retracted it. Don't be offended; any friend of Jersey Mike must be OK.
Are you insulting him again? That seems somewhat sarcastic.
Nick left out the socioeconomic considerations from his post and appeared to post an ageist slur.
Thank you, Bob, for pointing this out. I'm sorry to have missed this part.....but I in no way was putting race into this at all; I am not a bigot. -Nick
but I in no way was putting race into this at all; I am not a bigot.
Bigotry includes more than racism.
And when did I imply that you included race anyway?
4. The Times is just a newspaper, a hopelessly ideological one at that. It is not a guide to life.
How many newspapers are there that aren't ideological? Anybody with a brain should be able to take editorials and features with a grain of salt.
5. The Dodgers are perfectly happy in Los Angeles. They aren't coming back to Brooklyn.
The team doesn't decide where they want to go. If a Brooklynite wanted to buy them, then they wouldn't be happy anymore.
6. All the whining about Census "undercounts" doesn't obscure the fact that the Sunbelt won and New York lost. Get used to it.
Better to beaten by a piece of shit than to be king of said shit.
7. Coney Island will never again see its glory days of the 1950's. People today go to Disney World or Six Flags.
That's right.
I'm not being sarcastic either.
8. Old Penn Station is lost and gone forever.
So, when somebody is murdered you should drop criminal prosecution because the dead guy isn't coming back?
10. The world does not end at the Hudson River.
Yes it does. It starts again at the Delaware, and gets lost a few times on its way to the other coast.
Millions and millions of people have happy lives out there in the land of Interstates, single-family subdivisions and Wal-Marts.
Lots of people in mental institutions are perfectly happy.
Ok I have a dumb question. And it was something I was wondering for a while. I'm asking it because it was mentioned here. Forgive me if it really isn't transit related.
Why didn't Wal-mart ever build any stores here in the immediate NYC area? It seems that with the demise of Caldor, the near death of Bradlees, the ill health of KMart, and the absence of many Targets that Wal-mart would swoop in and try to gain control.
Ok I have a dumb question. And it was something I was wondering for a while. I'm asking it because it was mentioned here. Forgive me if it really isn't transit related.
Why didn't Wal-mart ever build any stores here in the immediate NYC area? It seems that with the demise of Caldor, the near death of Bradlees, the ill health of KMart, and the absence of many Targets that Wal-mart would swoop in and try to gain control.
One theory is that Wal*Mart's "middle America" culture is too incompatible with a sophisticated urban atmosphere. I find that a little hard to accept, as the company has been perfectly willing to site stores in other urban areas. Besides, being answerable to shareholders, Wal*Mart's management will go any place where they think they'll get a decent rate of return.
I suspect that unions are the key. Wal*Mart prides itself on being a completely non-union company. And it practically goes without saying that New York is the nation's most unionized area, having taken over that title from the industrial Midwest. 'Taint hard to see why the company's afraid of New York.
Of course, Wal*Mart is not a complete stranger to the New York area. It does have some stores in the fringes of the metro area, although the city itself is off-limits. Union support must tail off at the city line.
BTW - Bradlees is no longer nearly dead. Management has pulled the plug, and the stores will be part of history once liquidation sales are completed.
[Wal*Mart prides itself on being a completely non-union company.]
And that helps to explain why it has a reputation for treating its workers like garbage.
BMTman
One theory is that Wal*Mart's "middle America" culture is too incompatible with a sophisticated urban atmosphere.
That's probably right. Here, thankfully, there are no Wal-Marts in intown Atlanta (inside the Perimeter, I-285). I hate Walmart, it's the epiphany of suburban sprawl. What's worse, they're now making "Super Walmarts." I wouldn't shop there for anything.
Wal*Mart prides itself on being a completely non-union company.
They aren't unionized probably because it would be too funny to see the 100 year old man who greets everyone go on strike.
One theory is that Wal*Mart's "middle America" culture is too incompatible with a sophisticated urban atmosphere.
That's probably right. Here, thankfully, there are no Wal-Marts in intown Atlanta (inside the Perimeter, I-285). I hate Walmart, it's the epiphany of suburban sprawl. What's worse, they're now making "Super Walmarts." I wouldn't shop there for anything.
In my original posting, I said that I did not believe that Wal*Mart's "middle America" culture was the reason for its lack of stores in NYC. As a publicly held corporation, answerable to shareholders, Wal*Mart will locate stores anywhere it believes will be economically advantageous. Similarly, their lack of stores inside the Perimeter probably has nothing to do with culture (not to mention the fact that metro Atlanta's culture is less alien to Wal*Mart's than is New York's). Wal*Mart stores need a lot of land, costs for which probably are considerably less outside the Perimeter. Remember, people are willing to drive considerable distances to patronize Wal*Marts, so what seem like relatively remote locations probably aren't so bad.
"As a publicly held corporation, answerable to shareholders, Wal*Mart will locate stores anywhere it believes will be economically advantageous. Similarly, their lack of stores inside the Perimeter probably has nothing to do with culture (not to mention the fact that metro Atlanta's culture is less alien to Wal*Mart's than is New York's). Wal*Mart stores need a lot of land, costs for which probably are considerably less outside the Perimeter."
But Walmart isn't Home Depot or Ikea, selling mostly large items that MUST be transported by car or truck. They sell the same things that a Sears does, and Sears has always maintained an urban presence. Other retailers with the same product mix as Wal-Mart and which usually build big boxes -- K-Mart, for instance -- have adapted to urban markets by building locations in old department stores, having multilevel garages instead of parking lots, etcetera. But Wal-Mart doesn't. Therefore, the fact that Wal-mart builds ONLY the stand-alone, parking-lot-surrounded land-intensive variety of store when other similar retailers adapt to the urban market suggests to me that the difference IS attributable to corporate culture.
The bulk of Wal-Mart's stores are just a step or two above the metal corrigated building level, which makes it easy for the company to build them almost as disposable items.
There are lots of Wal-Mart buildings ranging in size from 60,000 to 90,000 sq. ft. that were built and then abandoned after only a few years, when the company decided to build 150,000- to 200,000 sq.ft. supercenters in their place. Sometimes the building is sold to another business or subdivided into smaller stores, other times it just sits idle for years.
Many of these are built and they destroy a village downtown with their "falling prices," forcing the owners and workers of these businesses to work at minimum wage jobs. Once they've successfully killed the competition, they drop their prices well below -2,147,483,647, forcing everyone to pay the new high prices and eventually they close the store completely, forcing people to drive to a superstore far away.
With apologies to "The Matrix," there is only one other thing that behaves like that, a virus. Which is all Walmart will ever be. For everybody's information, there's a www.walmartsucks.com.
With apologies to "The Matrix," there is only one other thing that behaves like that, a virus.
You touch upon an interesting point. It's not a far stretch to say that cities are living beings that function much the same way as biological organisms. Of course they're almost entirely man-made and operate on a much larger scale than any natural organism, but the general idea remains the same. Different components serve different functions, and cities come in a wide variety of shapes, sizes, and varying degrees of health. Not much different than most biological organisms when you think about it, and it only makes sense because cities are the direct products of bilogical beings (us humans). Streets, highways and mass transit are the circulatory system, the power grid and telecommunications networks are the nervous system, and sewage treatment plants are the... well, you get the picture.
With that idea in mind, the parallels between suburban sprawl and malignant tumors are staggering. Both consist of rapidly multiplying mutant "cells" that that suck nutrients and resources away from the host organism and eventually overcome that organism and kill it if the cancer is not stopped. Just look at places like Los Angeles, Houston and Atlanta to see this process in action. Detroit lost the battle at the earliest stages of the epidemic; Chicago is slowly turning the tide after decades of assault.
Whether Wal-Mart and other predatory "big box" retailers are the causes or merely the byproducts of this cancer is debatable, but their strong association with this cancer cannot be ignored. I tend to think of them as merely one type of "mutant" cell which forms the overall malignancy.
Just something to think about... Have a nice day!
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's not a far stretch to say that cities are living beings that function much the same way as biological organisms ... With that idea in mind, the parallels between suburban sprawl and malignant tumors are staggering. Both consist of rapidly multiplying mutant "cells" that that suck nutrients and resources away from the host organism and eventually overcome that organism and kill it if the cancer is not stopped ... Whether Wal-Mart and other predatory "big box" retailers are the causes or merely the byproducts of this cancer is debatable, but their strong association with this cancer cannot be ignored. I tend to think of them as merely one type of "mutant" cell which forms
the overall malignancy.
What's really awful are these gangs of armed thugs that threaten to slaughter people unless they shop at Wal*Mart ... what's that? There AREN'T any such gangs??? Oh no, this is awful ... it must mean that (gulp!) people actually like to shop at Wal*Mart!!!
I trust you see my point. Your "living being" analogy is interesting, but the fact remains that cities - not to mention suburbs and rural areas - are comprised of people who have, or should have, free will. Whatever you may think of Wal*Mart, if people want to shop there, no one has a right to stop them from doing so. If by patronizing Wal*Mart people cause some downtowns to wither and die, that's the way the cookie crumbles. No, I wouldn't want to see that happen, healthy downtowns are desirable, but no one has the right to change peoples' preferences to suit an urbanist (or any other kind of) agenda.
Please don't get the impression that I'm some sort of apologist for Wal*Mart. I find their stores a bit cluttered, Target has better merchandise, and I think it's rather hypocritical that Wal*Mart refuses to carry CD's with "parental warning" stickers yet is the nation's biggest gun dealer. But the fact remains, pretty much indisputable, that Wal*Mart serves the needs of millions upon millions of people very well. Nothing we say can change that.
But the fact remains, pretty much indisputable, that Wal*Mart serves the needs of millions upon millions of people very well.
So does Phillip Morris. And so do pimps, crack dealers and ambulance-chasing lawyers, but that doesn't mean it's good for our communities.
Don't get me wrong: I don't mind the concept of "big box" retailers per se (Marshall Field's magnificent store on State Street is one of the biggest boxes of them all), nor do I necessarily have a problem with national retail chains (I freely admit to purchasing a latte at Starbucks every weekday morning on the way to work).
What I do have a problem with is companies who think they are above the rules of common decency and who use their size and power to unfairly crush their competition and monopolize local retail markets, or who impose their formula-designed stores onto existing communities with no regard given as to how they impact the local quality of life. I'm a firm believer in free will and a free market economy, but that means a free market for all people and not just those who have the political and/or financial power to manipulate the playing field to their own advantage at the expense of everybody else.
I agree that people should have the right to shop where they choose, and that means people should also have the right to shop on Main Street rather than have their shopping choices dictated to them by a bunch of corporate suits in Arkansas who have a vested self-interest and the power to crush Main Street out of existance.
-- David
Chicago, IL
A local example for me is a neighborhood in Atlanta called Little Five Points. It's just north of Inman Park MARTA station. This is one of the most characteristic neighborhoods of Atlanta. It has a "psychidelic 60s" feels to it, also known as where the "freaks of Atlanta go." It's a very friendly neighborhood with lots of charm and absolutely no chain stores. Except for a Starbucks, which was built less than a year ago. The controversy surrounding the opening of that Starbucks was huge. The entire neighborhood was against it, fearing that it would ruin the area's atmosphere. It's not the typical group of NIMBYs that are a minority. Everyone is this neighborhood is dead set aganist chain stores. I walked by that Starbucks recently and thankfully no one was in it. No one ever goes to it.
Big Box chain stores never know when they aren't wanted. Walmart, Home Depot, and others have attempted(are attempting) to build stores there. As a result, Little Five is trying to create rules where it is nearly impossible to build a chain store. Unfortunatly, the rules also make it difficult for individual small business owners that are welcome there to be able to set up shop. It's sad to see that a neighorhood must go to extreme measures to keep out unwanted retailers. Big Box retailers refuse to take "no" for an answer.
Sorry, David, but Starbucks is on my $h!t list, but not as high as Walmart.
Sorry, David, but Starbucks is on my $h!t list, but not as high as Walmart.
Well, I have no particular loyalty to Starbucks other than the fact that they're located in the lobby of the Sears Tower next to the elevators I use, and make for a convenient pit stop before I head up into the clouds each morning.
That said, Starbucks seems to serve as a convenient scapegoat for urban gentrification but I don't think the backlash against Starbucks is entirely justified. Only by virtue of the fact that they're on almost every street corner, they serve as the most visible symbol of all the ills associated with gentrification and therefore seem to take the brunt of the backlash. Chicago has several neighborhoods like the Little Five Points area you describe, and new Starbucks locations in these areas have often been welcomed by bricks thrown through the front windows.
I can sympathize with neighborhood residents who are justifiably concerned about gentrification -- nobody here wants Chicago to become another San Fancisco or Boston, and I'd be throwing bricks too if I were being faced with the prospect of getting priced out of my own neighborhood -- but I feel their anger is a bit misdirected. Starbucks isn't Wal-Mart for a number of reasons:
1) Their stores, while numerous, are usually small and fit well within the existing urban fabric. In most cases they are very pedestrian-oriented and actually add life to the streetscape instead of sapping it away. Neighborhoods need more stores like this, not fewer.
2) Since Starbucks usually locates within pre-existing retail space rather than building their own buildings from scratch, it is inherently impossible for them to have a cookie-cutter design. Most Starbucks here in Chicago each have their own unique design character (occasional plywood storefronts nowithstanding).
3) From what I understand, Starbucks actually treats their employees fairly well, offering them pay and benefits that entry-level retail employees would be lucky to even dream of.
4) So far I have yet to hear any serious allegations of Starbucks deliberately conspiring to destroy its competition by underselling or other predatory practices. In fact, except for maybe a few college areas, the whole coffee craze never really caught on until Starbucks wetted the public's appetite. So it's not like there were scores of locally-owned coffee houses that suddenly went out of business upon the arrival of Starbucks. In reality I think the reverse may even be true. It seems that Starbucks itself created the demand for quality coffee in a classic case of "If you build it, they will come" marketing philosophy. That, in turn, eventually led to the opening of dozens of locally-owned coffee houses in neighborhoods across the city, each coffee house determined to make better coffee and serve it in a better atmosphere than big evil Starbucks. You can't spit in Chicago's Lincoln Park neighborhood without hitting a coffee house, and I'd guess that only about a third or fewer are Starbucks. Starbucks is also opening up in the artsy Wicker Park neighborhood, where they will have a difficult time competing against popular places like Urban Grind and Earwax Cafe which already have fiercely loyal followings.
In conclusion, I will continue to sip my Starbucks latte guilt-free until am presented with a good enough reason not to.
You're right about some of the other "superstore" national chains, though... They don't give a shit about their local communities, and they don't even give a shit about their own customers. The only thing that matters to them is their stock value on Wall Street which is boosted by constantly expanding their presence, not by good business. The same rules that allow Amazon.com to turn millions without making a profit also allow the superstores to turn millions while treating their employees, customers and communities like dirt. Welcome to the New Economy.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Unlike Wal-Mart, Stabucks doesn't undersell their competitors, if anything, their prices are higher than most other coffee shops. They make that work by either A.) Offering a premium brand of coffee better than other stores and/or B.) Being trendy enough to attract the Gen X/Yuppie crowds willing to pay the extra price for Stabucks because....well, because it's Starbucks.
A better comparison to Wal-Mart's situation in the retailing business is the hue and cry over the growth of Barnes and Nobel Bookstores across the country.
Here, you've got a business that began in New York, and for years was based only at Fifth Ave. and 18th Street, which in the 1980s began expading out into the hinderlands with its large-volume stores (with accompanying Starbucks Cafes, of course) and volume buying of books which undercut smaller independent bookstores around the U.S.
To small-scale booksellers, B&N is as much of a Great Satan as Wal-Mart is to mom-and-pop retailers, though I think only the Upper West Side of Manhattan has mounted any major protest in the city over their intrusion onto Broadway. But just like Wal-Mart, B&N's success is based on the fact they do offer lower prices and larger selections to parts of the country that didn't have those options before.
And just as Wal-Mart has competition from Target in most of the more-populted areas (where the Supercenters tend to go) and from the Dollar General and Family Dollar chains in the smaller areas, B&N's competition comes from both Borders (also in the more populated areas) and Amazon.com. In both cases, the competition is still enough to keep Wal-Mart or B&N from instututing monopolistic price increases even with their growing dominiance of their retailing sectors.
In the case of small bookstores, I must say one thing:
They SUCK. And so do the big ones for that matter. I vow never to even come within spitting distance of any one of these pieces of shit.
It's impossible to find anything but a "best seller" at these locations. What the big stores have an advantage in inventory, they make up for in complexity. At a library, there are catalogs and call numbers to find what you want. It never takes more than a few minutes to do so. At a bookstore, one is always required to ask a useless worker (someone who does something that people can do for themselves) for help, and then there is no guarantee. Even the big stores don't have access to the inventory of other stores so you can go cross town to get something. A library does.
An online bookstore on the other hand, has a huge selection, and all you have to do is type the name and get it as early as the next day. No tax combined with discounts gets the price with shipping to something equal to a bricks and murder book store.
Sometimes a small store will have a specialty where you can find out of print and rare books. A chain has none of these things. A chain is only useful for reading new best sellers for free. I don't feel the slightest bit guilty for creasing their paperbacks.
To small-scale booksellers, B&N is as much of a Great Satan as Wal-Mart is to mom-and-pop retailers, though I think only the Upper West Side of Manhattan has mounted any major protest in the city over their intrusion onto Broadway
Why does that not surprise me in the least?
A better comparison to Wal-Mart's situation in the retailing business is the hue and cry over the growth of Barnes and Nobel Bookstores across the country ... But just like Wal-Mart, B&N's success is based on the fact they do offer lower prices and larger selections to parts of the country that didn't have those options before.
You've touched on a point that the anti-Wal*Mart crowd overlooks. Many people have an unreasonably idyllic notion of life in the pre-Wal*Mart days. In their view, most of America was characterized by charming small downtowns right out of a Jimmy Stewart movie. Mr. Jones the friendly storekeeper had a quaint little shop on the corner, with a twinkle in his eye and encyclopedic knowledge of every item in the shop. Then cam big bad Wal*Mart, and poor Mr. Jones was ruined.
Reality was usually quite different. Most downtowns - which probably never had been particularly charming - were on the decline well before Sam Walton expanded out of Bentonville. The little shops usually were anything but quaint, with high prices, poor selections, and limited hours.
And just as Wal-Mart has competition from Target in most of the more-populted areas (where the Supercenters tend to go) and from the Dollar General and Family Dollar chains in the smaller areas, B&N's competition comes from both Borders (also in the more populated areas) and Amazon.com. In both cases, the competition is still enough to keep Wal-Mart or B&N from instututing monopolistic price increases even with their growing dominiance of their retailing sectors
President Eisenhower (with consulting help from one Robert Moses) laid the groundwork for the decline of small town shopping areas with the creation of the Interstate Highway System, which allowed rural residents the chance to go to big city and/or suburban malls 50- to 100-miles away in less time than it takes commuters from Eastern Queens or Staten Island to get into Manhattan.
Not that people that far away would hit the mall on a spur-of-the-moment thing, but the roads made planned trips to shop far easier than on the old narrow two-lane highways. Now, you even have the outlet malls that deliberately locate along interstates in rural areas midway between urban centers with the idea that people in both cities will drive out to the country for discounts.
Chain bookstores, while they have their advantages, are more of a negative than any other type of chain store in my opinion. They offer essentially the same merchandise regardless of where you are in the country, focused on the so-called "best sellers" rather than on intellectually-interesting books that the owner and his staff have read. Also, since they are owned by the publishing houses, they enjoy special pricing that significantly undercuts the prices they charge the independents. Even small chains with comparatively large inventories can't compete, local-interest and knowledgeable staff notwithstanding. Wallace Kuralt (brother of the late Charles Kuralt) founded a bookstore in Chapel Hill, North Carolina called The Intimate Bookshop many years ago. While it did carry bestsellers, its focus was always on books of intellectual merit and regional interest. Kuralt eventually expanded from one store to at least six (or was it nine?), in North and South Carolina, and was doing well until the publishers (Barnes and Noble among them) delayed shipments to his stores until the major chains had saturated the market with the new releases, and were also charging him more (wholesale) than they were retailing the books for. Eventually he was back to two locations, then one, and finally out of business in 1998. The loss of his stores was a major blow. Unfortunately, it's a sign of the times.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're right about some of the other "superstore" national chains, though... They don't give a shit about their local communities, and they don't even give a shit about their own customers. The only thing that matters to them is their stock value on Wall Street which is boosted by constantly expanding their presence, not by good business. The same rules that allow Amazon.com to turn millions without making a profit also allow the superstores to turn millions while treating their employees, customers and communities like dirt. Welcome to the New Economy.
News Flash: for any publicly traded company, the stock price is all that really matters. Any talk about "community responsibility" and such is mere window dressing. Today's institutional investors demand high returns and have zero tolerance for corporate managers who don't remain focused on enhancing shareholder value. This isn't the New Economy, it's basic Economics 101.
I know this sounds bleak, but the relentless pursuit of corporate self-interest has, despite what one might imagine, improved the lots of most Americans quite nicely. Let's take Wal*Mart, shall we? Whatever its role in the destruction of middle America's downtowns might be (and I believe this role has been greatly exaggerated), it has become the nation's largest private-sector employer. Many of those jobs, no doubt, were created in small-town and rural areas that weren't exactly hotbeds of hiring before Wal*Mart came along. Funny, the company's critics never seem to acknowledge this fact.
News Flash: for any publicly traded company, the stock price is all that really matters. Any talk about "community responsibility" and such is mere window dressing. Today's institutional investors demand high returns and have zero tolerance for corporate managers who don't remain focused on enhancing shareholder value. This isn't the New Economy, it's basic Economics 101.
News Flash: For traditional national retail chains, you first had to start small and then expand by offering superior selection and superior service at superior prices. Most of these chains were privately owned until they had expanded significantly enough to become public. Nowadays, all it takes is a fat wad of IPO cash and an aggressive marketing strategy to go in and rape and plunder a local retail community.
And whether these companies admit it or not, they do in fact have a community responsibility. If their shareholders refuse to acknowledge this, then that's a personal issue for them to deal with. Regardless of what the laws say, -- laws can be changed at the drop of a hat -- no company has the moral right to make their profits off the death and destruction of other people's health or livelihoods, whether by dumping toxic chemicals into a watershed or by using predatory tactics to destroy local communities.
Hasn't this SubTalk thread been beaten to death by now?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yes, it has been beaten to death.
Yes, I like your thinking>
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, how many times can ya beat a dead horse, anyway?
BMT (Sanwich) man
That's just about enough out of you. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I forgot to add that the vast majority of Wal-Mart's "new jobs" are dead-end, minimum-wage retail positions with no health benefits and virtually no opportunities for significant advancement. No wonder any employee suspected of union-organizing activities is fired on the spot. (Back in a former life I worked as a cashier for Target for a year, and the employee manual made no bones about its zero-tolerance policy toward unions. And Target was considered a cush job compared to our couterparts at Wal-Mart across the street.)
I just love how large corporations are somehow exempt from the moral crusade that Republicans are constantly trying to shove down our throats.
(Okay, I promise this is my final posting on this thread. I just have a hard time allowing bullshit to go unrefuted.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's this simple, As long as the ideology subscribed to by the republican party today is adhered to by any significant number of Americans, (Linda tripp morality) america will go down.
>>>I just love how large corporations are somehow exempt from the moral crusade that Republicans are constantly trying to
shove down our throats.
Well, you cannot successfully bite the hand that feeds you. Who makes up the largest category of "contributions" to Congressional campaigns? - and especially Republican campaigns?
-cordially,
turnstiles
I forgot to add that the vast majority of Wal-Mart's "new jobs" are dead-end, minimum-wage retail positions with no health benefits and virtually no opportunities for significant advancement.
And the jobs in the long-lamented Main Street retailers were any better?
Before blasting Wal*Mart jobs, you should go into one of their stores and see what sort of people actually work there. Most of the non-managerial workers fall into one of three categories:
1. Teenagers, looking to make some money after school.
2. Older people retired from other jobs, looking to keep busy and maybe supplement their pensions a bit.
3. Adult women, most of whom are married and want to make some extra cash while the kids are in school.
What you won't see in any appreciable numbers are adult men, the sort of people who usually are their households' main breadwinners. Yeah yeah, I know there are exceptions; some of the women might be heads of household, and so on, but the general rule stands.
Face facts, whether you like Wal*Mart or not, the company is a monumental success by any standards and isn't going anywhere. You aren't going to change things, so save yourself the heartburn and make your peace with these facts.
I forgot to add that the vast majority of Wal-Mart's "new jobs" are dead-end, minimum-wage retail positions with no health benefits and virtually no opportunities for significant advancement.
And jobs in the small mom-and-pop retail stores are any different? Speaking as someone with a financial interest in a small retail business (and having worked there anywhere from 15 to 100 hours a week for quite a number of years - even now, almost 500 miles away, I'm still actively involved in the business) I can tell you that there is no opportunity for advancement, no health benefits (even as an owner), and not much pay either. If I were to run the business full-time, with just the other partners - no other paid employees - I'd be doing well to clear 30K per year. I would love to be behind the counter, but I have a family to feed and educate. I could make more working as a department manager for Wal*Mart, and spend a lot fewer hours on the job. Fortunately, I have other marketable skills, which is why I'm in New Jersey working as a project manager for a major firm with a reasonable salary and decent health benefits.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peter, this is the manifesto of Conservative/libertarian morality. (A HUGE oxyMORON) My feeling is that to restore respectability to the rule of law people should vote and work union always. Wal*Mart can go to hell and if our country doesn't shape up real soon America's decline is inevitable and unstoppable. Don't shoot me I'm just the messinger.
I consider myself a libertarian, but one that is PRO-union and PRO-some regulation.
I agree with you but you are NOT a libertarian in the accepted meaning of the word
NOBODY can be take any extreme viewpoint perfectly.
Or, somebody can, but it will never work. It's impossible to be at the extreme end of the spectrum, one'll fall over.
Actually, Wal-Mart is still in its expansion phase -- I only know of one town they've gone into, opened a store that chased out the downtown businesses, then closed and moved away.
They normally replace the 60,000 square foot store with another one nearby around 175,000 square feet that includes a supermarket, which allows them to target the other supermarkets in that community. They also mail out bulk circulars to customers in wide-zoned areas (you really want to see people who hate Wal-Mart? Talk to anyone in the newspaper business, which rarely gets a dime from the company in ad revenues). Sending out all those circulars does require a general standardization of prices regionally.
What they are running into though, is the fact that the grocery industry is more hospitable to unionization than the retailing industry. When the meat cutters at one Supercenter voted to unionize, Wal-Mart not only shut that meat counter down, they decided to shut them all down and contract out to a third party to provide those stores with pre-packaged meat.
This may keep the unions at bay, but for shoppers who actually want specific types or cuts of meat, Wal-Mart has assumed a "take it or leave it" attitude, which figures to help their competitors.
But Walmart isn't Home Depot or Ikea, selling mostly large items that MUST be transported by car or truck. They sell the same things that a Sears does, and Sears has always maintained an urban presence. Other retailers with the same product mix as Wal-Mart and which usually build big boxes -- K-Mart, for instance -- have adapted to urban markets by building locations in old department stores, having multilevel garages instead of parking lots, etcetera. But Wal-Mart doesn't. Therefore, the fact that Wal-mart builds ONLY the stand-alone, parking-lot-surrounded land-intensive variety of store when other similar retailers adapt to the urban market suggests to me that the difference IS attributable to corporate culture.
Wal*Mart has many more stores than Home Depot and vastly more than IKEA. Their stores are basically a standardized item (as J. Lee also noted), and presumably are built to a uniform plan. Deviating from that plan in order to build urban stores might very well be more trouble than it's worth. Sears is a very poor analogy, as it's been around decades longer than Wal*Mart, having started when urban, transit-friendly stores were the exception rather than the rule.
If Wal*Mart's adversion to unions is a form of "culture," I suppose you could say that culture is responsible for keeping the stores out of cities, seeing as how unionization is more of an urban thing these days. I consider the union policy to be a dollars-and-cents business principle rather than a matter of culture, however. YMMV.
I wouldn't call it culture, it's just good business. Do something. Do it well. Do it as often as you can. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
What Wal*Mart does well is get cheap land, throw up a cookie cutter store, negotiate sweet deals for your inventory, manage that inventory through top-notch systems and sell the inventory with inexpensive labor.
You can't get cheap land in NYC -- or inexpensive labor.
KMart is trying to break their mold with their Manhattan stores. I'd love to see the P&L statement on those locations. I'm sure Wal*Mart would also.
CG
What Wal*Mart does well is get cheap land, throw up a cookie cutter store, negotiate sweet deals for your inventory, manage that inventory through top-notch systems and sell the inventory with inexpensive labor.
A strategy which has made the company #4 on the Fortune 500 after only a few decades in existence. Not to mention the fact that it's also the nation's largest private-sector employer.
KMart is trying to break their mold with their Manhattan stores. I'd love to see the P&L statement on those locations. I'm sure Wal*Mart would also.
Rumor (yes, just rumor) has it that the Manhattan K-Marts are run-of-the-mill, fiftieth-percentile performers for the chain. Their revenues are high, but so are their expenses, so it all about evens out. Note that K-Mart seems to be in no hurry to open any more stores in Manhattan.
What Wal*Mart does well is get cheap land, throw up a cookie cutter store, negotiate sweet deals for your inventory, manage that inventory through top-notch systems and sell the inventory with inexpensive labor.
You left out one major component of Wal-Mart's business strategy: the elimination of any locally-owned competition. When Wal-Mart decides to move into a given area, here is usually what happens:
1) Before plans for a new store in a given market are even publicly announced, Wal-Mart will take a thorough inventory of existing independent retailers within that market, taking note of what they sell, how much they sell it for, etc.
2) Upon opening, the new Wal-Mart store will saturate the local market with goods and prices specifically selected to compete with the local independent retailers, based on their previous research. Most Wal-Mart stores undercut their prices on this merchadise so low that new stores actually operate at a loss for the first year or so of business, usually ample time for any local competition to be driven out of business.
3) New Wal-Mart stores will typically also hire far more staff than they actually need, partly to lure employees away from other retailers and also to overwhelm customers with artificially high levels of customer service to get them into the habit of shopping at Wal-Mart.
4) Once most local competition is eliminated, usually within a year in most cases, a typical Wal-Mart store will then raise its prices by an average of 33% and lay off a significant portion of its staff.
5) In many cases, Wal-Mart will then shut down one or more of its own stores within a region after a couple years of operation even if the store itself is profitable. This forces customers to drive even further for basic goods at larger, more profitable Wal-Mart stores which can then dominate an even larger geographic area.
This is not free-market capitalism. This is profiteering off the rape and plunder of other people's livelihoods. Wal-Mart is one of only two companies (Disney being the other) that I absolutely refuse to give a dime of my money to. Some apologists will defend these practices as simply being "the American way". Well, if that's truly the American way, then I'm truly ashamed to be an American.
Obviously, (in addition to the other factors mentioned such as labor unions and the cost of real estate) this type of business strategy would be just about impossible in most larger urban areas, especially New York, so Wal-Mart has the good sense to stay in small and medium-sized rural and suburban markets where local merchants tend to be fewer and scattered much farther apart, and therefore much easier prey.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well put, David, more people need to know what bastards Wal-Mart are.
Peace,
ANDEE
Good assessment.
Also, why Disney?
[re listing of Wal*Mart's predatory business practices]
What's that I see? Ah, it's my Urban Legend Detector, flashing yellow.
My source is the book "Cities Back from the Edge: New Life for Downtown". (I don't recall the authors offhand but I can find out when I get home from work this evening.) Their information about Wal-Mart's busines practices is well-documented and comes from a former high-level senior manager at Wal-Mart's corporate headquarters, whose name I believe is also given in the book. Again, I'll find out more specific information when I get home and can pull the book off my shelf.
I believe that flashing yellow light is the public gullibility indicator. Must be the result of those feel-good Wal-Mart commercials where they tell people what wonderful corporate citizens they are.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>I believe that flashing yellow light is the public gullibility indicator. Must be the result of those feel-good Wal-Mart commercials where they tell people what wonderful corporate citizens they are. <<<
Touche!
PEace,
ANDEE
My source is the book "Cities Back from the Edge: New Life for Downtown". (I don't recall the authors offhand but I can find out when I get home from work this evening.) Their information about Wal-Mart's busines practices is well-documented and comes from a former high-level senior manager at Wal-Mart's corporate headquarters, whose name I believe is also given in the book. Again, I'll find out more specific information when I get home and can pull the book off my shelf.
I'm somewhat skeptical about this source, as it sounds from the book's very title that the authors may not be completely objective. And that former manager could very well have scores to settle. But let's assume that the claims are true. That does not make Wal*Mart's practices illegal in any way, or even, for that matter, unethical. Wal*Mart is not a nonprofit organization. Its managers have the duty of enhancing shareholder value, and they've apparently come to the conclusion that crushing the competition in certain areas is the best way to accomplish that end. Any othe company, be it Target or K-Mart or anyone else, would do the exact same thing if they could.
Besides, I'm somewhat skeptical as to how many areas really have a Wal*Mart monopoly. Target and K-Mart remain strong competitors, the former in particular, not to mention all the other retail outlets. It's probably in only the smaller towns that Wal*Mart is truly dominant, and that's largely because of their willingness to open stores serving smaller population bases than is the case with Target or K-Mart. And most of the people in these smaller towns probably appreciate Wal*Mart's big selection and reasonable prices, especially compared to the mediocre local stores that used to be the only game in town.
I'm somewhat skeptical about this source, as it sounds from the book's very title that the authors may not be completely objective. And that former manager could very well have scores to settle.
I dig some digging and found the passages in the book I mentioned. The name of the book is Cities Back From the Edge: New Life for Downtown by Roberta Brandes Gratz and Norman Mintz, published in 1998 by John Wiley & Sons. And while the book is not entirely objective and makes to claims to be objective, it is very well-balanced and its findings are based on a vast collection of objective data and case studies. It is also at its core a very optimistic book, with chapters on how big-box superstores can be (and have been) incorporated into existing urban neighborhoods in such a way that they enhance the local business community instead of destroying it. Transit issues are also dealt with extensively, and I highly reccomend the book to anybody who has the slightest interest in urban planning and design issues. The best thing about the book is that it thoroughly de-bunks many popular myths about superstore retailing and suburban sprawl, and doesn't merely paint the picture in black-and-white terms.
Upon doing a bit of digging, I found the section dealing with Wal-Marts busines practices and the "former senior manager" I alluded to turned out to be none other than Sam Walton himself describing the company's business formula in his autobiography.
In composing this message I was looking for a good juicy paragraph to quote from, but upon further reading I found that I would have to transcribe the entire chapter here on SubTalk to really do it justice. Instead, I'll just list the chapters from the table of contents to give people an idea of what this book covers in case they're interested in picking it up themselves:
Section One: Where Are We?
Chapter 1: Mansfield, Ohio -- Getting off the big-project merry-go-round
Chapter 2: The mess we have made
Chapter 3: Project planning or urban husbandry -- The choice
Section Two: Transportation and Place
Chapter 4: Death and rebirth of the public realm
Chapter 5: Rebuilding place, valuing transit
Chapter 6: Undoing sprawl
Section Three: Big, Little, Predator
Chapter 7: Free competion or no competion?
Chapter 8: You don't have to be Wal-Mart to be Wal-Mart
Chapter 9: To market, to market
Section Four: Downtown Essentials
Chapter 10: Public buildings, public places
Chapter 11: Back to basics
Chapter 12: Investing in people
Section Five: It's happening
Chapter 13: The SoHo syndrome
Conclusion: Back from the Edge
That does not make Wal*Mart's practices illegal in any way, or even, for that matter, unethical. Wal*Mart is not a nonprofit organization. Its managers have the duty of enhancing shareholder value, and they've apparently come to the conclusion that crushing the competition in certain areas is the best way to accomplish that end.
Bullshit. A runner who wins the race by running the fastest is one thing, but a runner who wins the race by smashing his competitors' skulls with a brick is the lowest form of life imaginable.
-- David
Chicago, IL
(Cities Back From the Edge: New Life for Downtown by Roberta Brandes Gratz and Norman Mintz, published in 1998)
Don't take anything written by these people seriously. They were the once who advocated the policies that drove cities to the edge 40 years ago, and are constantly looking to deflect the blame. In NYC, their big claim to fame is working to keep new stores out of NYC. In fact, they work to keep new ANYTHING out of NYC, despite the fact that it is an influx of new people, new kinds of people, new businesses, and new kinds of businesses that has brought NYC back from the edge.
Have you actually read the book? The policies that drove cities to the edge (literally) 40 years ago were the policies created by the Dwight Eisenhowers and Robert Moseses of the day. This book is firmly in line with the likes of Jane Jacobs and William H. Whyte, who were about the only friends cities had 40 years ago.
I don't deny that New York has plenty of other policies that hurt it today, namely in terms of real estate development, housing and inept city governemnt crippled by a gamut of conflicting special-interest and NIMBY groups. And it is possible to carry urbanist ideals to such an extreme that the results end up being far worse than the initial problems.
(Exhibit A: Asinine zoning laws in places like New York, San Francisco and Boston that make almost any new construction illegal, thereby driving real estate prices up so high that national chains like Borders and Gap are the only stores that can afford to locate there. Exhibit B: Celebration, Florida, a New Urbanist community built by Disney that behaves more like a Soviet gulag than any cookie-cutter subdivision in the 'burbs.)
There are some things in the book I don't completely agree with. The authors take great pains to denounce some major public building projects, and anybody who has read my postings on SubTalk knows that I'm firmly in favor of large-scale investment in the public infrastructure. But all in all I thought it was rather fair-minded book that presented simple but innovative solutions for improving the quality of urban life. I highly reccomend reading it, even if some parts need to be taken with a grain of salt.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>That does not make Wal*Mart's practices illegal in any way, or even, for that matter, unethical.
Peter:
A strategy of underselling specifically and solely to eliminate all local competitors, followed by a policy of rising prices dramatically after a monopoly is established - what David Cole is claiming, is both very unethical and anti-competitive for even a for-profit business. I am completely unfamiliar with his source, but if it is true (which you are assuming it is), then Walmart is benefiting noone except itself. It doesn't benefit the market overall since the key element of a market economy, real competition, longer exists. The most significant theoretical benefits of a market economy (truly large and sustained growth and innovation that theoretically will ultimately benefit every individual - i.e. trickle-down economics) all fail if all that a firm has to do to survive is sit on their figurative behinds and rake in profits because no opposing firm is left to compete! Numerous people state correctly that capitalism hinges on the accumulation of wealth in a competitive enviroment to drive improvements and innovation. Some people remember the part concerning the accumulation of wealth, but then completely forget the importance of competition as the driving force that compells people to perform and be better.
-cordially,
turnstiles
You left out one major component of Wal-Mart's business strategy: the elimination of any locally-owned competition.
David, in my experience with Wal*Mart, that hasn't been part of the equation. I'll cite three areas, all in North Carolina, in order of increasing size, with which I am familiar.
First, Louisburg. Wal*Mart arrived about 1991. Louisburg is a small "city", the centrally-located county seat of Franklin County, about 35 miles north-northeast of Raleigh. At the time Wal*Mart arrived the entire county had a population of between 35,000 and 40,000 inhabitants. (It's over 40 now and, along the southern edge, growing fast.) Downtown Louisburg had been in a slump long before Wal*Mart arrived, and out on Bickett Boulevard there existed a small Ames department store, a Winn-Dixie grocery, a disreputable auto parts store, and a chain pharmacy. Downtown had a couple of small local grocery stores (the A&P had closed a couple of years before), a florist, a couple of barber shops, H.C. Taylor's Hardware and Fine Furniture, a dress shop, a local pharmacy, Rowe's Men's Shop, and Leggett's department store (part of the Belk co-op, based in Charlotte). Of course, the post office, courthouse, and Louisburg Junior College were downtown as well. Wal*Mart brought products to Louisburg that, by and large, weren't readily available in town; shoes, casual clothing, and office supplies come quickly to mind. Now, ten years later, Taylor's is gone, Rowe's has moved out to the boulevard, Leggett's is gone (literally - it's now a parking lot), and the downtown florist and dress shop have closed as well. The downtown pharmacy moved out to the boulevard but closed shortly thereafter, when its owners divorced, but a number of other new stores have opened out on the boulevard - a hardware/garden center, two good auto parts stores, and several specialty shops (including a shoe store, right next to Wal*Mart), almost all locally-owned. And Wal*Mart's level of service is the same today as when it opened.
Second, Rocky Mount. Wal*Mart arrived there at about the same time as they did in Louisburg - maybe a year or so before. Rocky Mount is a city of about 30,000 population that straddles the Nash-Edgecombe county line. Its old downtown, bisected by the ACL (now CSX) main line, lies about eight miles east of I-95 and about 60 miles due east of Raleigh. Downtown was dying in the early '80s and by 1986, with the construction of a second shopping mall along US 301, was nearly dead. Today, it is a bustling area of specialty stores, catering to various ethnic groups that populate the area. Wal*Mart has expanded twice since their arrival in Rocky Mount; in their current incarnation they are a SuperCenter (a good-sized grocery in addition to other merchandise, located directly behind the one remaining mall (the other was flooded by Hurricane Floyd in 1999 and has never reopened), and across the highway from a K-Mart (also with a grocery section). Up the road, their former location now hosts a Target. All of the stores are busy, as are the locally-owned stores that populate the many strip centers up and down the highway.
Third, Raleigh. Wal*Mart has several stores in Raleigh (the state capital, pop. 250,000) now, plus a Sam's Club (although that is rumored to be closing). They are largely in areas of the city that were undeveloped ten years ago; Wal*Mart comes in with the developers, building their cookie-cutter stores right next to the cookie-cutter subdivisions. Again, no displacement of local merchants here.
So from my experience I don't see your complaint.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Wal*Marts in North Carolina not damaging downtowns or local businesses]
I've got a theory why anti-Wal*Mart sentiment might be higher in New York. Local businesses in North Carolina may have been able to survive and thrive despite Wal*Mart's presence because the state's vibrant economy means that there's enough money and business for everyone. In New York, and in the northeast in general, businesses are competing for pieces of a shrinking pie, creating a classic zero-sum game. It's not hard to see why existing businesses are a lot more frightened.
That may be, Peter. I know that for us it meant we didn't have to make the 35 mile drive to Raleigh any more for certain basic items - just the 14 mile drive to Louisburg.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Okay, let me work on this here listing to get some clarity out of it:
[1. There is no ironclad law of nature which says that it's impossible to expand transit systems. Other cities around the country are able to do so. New York can too.]
Unfortunately most of New York is already overdeveloped so extending lines -- at least within city limits -- is almost impossible without an order of "iminent domain". Other (and noticably less densely populated cities) are able to expand due to the availability of land area around the outskirts of town.
[2. You can put out a fire by smothering it with dirt. You cannot solve all social problems by smothering them with taxpayer money.]
Right, the word here is ALL social problems cannot be solved by 'smothering' with taxpayer money. BUT, there needs to a REASONABLE amount alloted for SOME social programs or this city (and country) would truly be on par with a Third World society.
[3. John Lindsay, advocate of the limousine liberal philosophy, died nearly broke, having to beg the city for a fake job just so he could get health insurance. Limousine liberalism is similarly bankrupt.]
Hogwash. Conservatives would like everyone to believe that Lindsey was living some kind of destitute life. This was not the case. Sure, he had health problems, but he could in no way be labeled as "needy". He was given that position by Rudy G. more out of respect for a former elected official (this is done quite often, BTW), than out of "pity".
[4. The Times is just a newspaper, a hopelessly ideological one at that. It is not a guide to life.]
Nobody should make any NYC paper as their "guide to life", but compared to the alternatives, The Post, and The News, the Times has more real 'news' to it than the other two rags put together.
[5. The Dodgers are perfectly happy in Los Angeles. They aren't coming back to Brooklyn.]
You'll get no argument with me there...
[6. All the whining about Census "undercounts" doesn't obscure the fact that the Sunbelt won and New York lost. Get used to it.]
This may be the case THIS time around. Everything doesn't stay the same, including census counts (however, we'll have to wait for the next ten years unfortunately).
[7. Coney Island will never again see its glory days of the 1950's. People today go to Disney World or Six Flags.]
You're on the money on this one...
[8. Old Penn Station is lost and gone forever.]
Ditto...Except in our memories...
[9. Assuming that businesses will pay huge premiums to locate in New York because the city's full of art museums and symphony orchestras is less logical than believing in the Easter Bunny.]
Are you saying that businesses ONLY reason for staying in NYC is for the proximity to cultural centers? That might be PART of the reason, but maybe it has something to do with the location of Wall Street, the fact that NYC has some 93 different ethnic groups living in it, or perhaps that we have three major airports and a massive transportation network in place? Cultural attractions ain't gonna be the #1 priority for major companies to pay premium real estate taxes...pleazzzze.
[10. The world does not end at the Hudson River. Millions and millions of people have happy lives out there in the land of Interstates, single-family subdivisions and Wal-Marts.]
Yeah, but just within the confines of the five boroughs -- heck, within the borough of Brooklyn alone -- there are some many different culturally diverse neighborhoods and sights to see that indeed the city is a "world unto itself". And keep in mind that the 'burbs are having their own share of "city-like" problems of late like increasing gang-violence problems, tax-raising issues, environmental headaches and over-development.
[11. Don't get too complacent about the city's low crime rate. Things can change, very quickly. Just one or two highly publicized incidents will change perceptions 180 degrees.]
The crime in New York will likely go up if the economy starts to take a turn for the worse. The two are most often related. It's not like there's going to be a crime wave all of a sudden (Of course there's always some psycho or two around to do some serious spur-of-the-moment damage).
Sorry about the loooong post.
BMTman
[4. The Times is just a newspaper, a hopelessly ideological one at that. It is not a guide to life.]
Nobody should make any NYC paper as their "guide to life", but compared to the alternatives, The Post, and The News, the Times has more real 'news' to it than the other two rags put together.
The more I read the Daily News, the more respect I have for it. I consider it to be the only one of the three that isn't excessively biased (in that respect, the Post is even worse than the Times). To give a pretty clear example, it is not condescening toward minorities (in contrast to the Times) and does not treat them as violent thugs (in contrast to the Post). It considers them to be (drumroll please) real people with real concerns. If the News would reduce some of its sports and entertainment coverage in favor of more hard news, it would be a terrific paper.
[6. All the whining about Census "undercounts" doesn't obscure the fact that the Sunbelt won and New York lost. Get used to it.]
This may be the case THIS time around. Everything doesn't stay the same, including census counts (however, we'll have to wait for the next ten years unfortunately).
That's true. In all fairness, I should point out that New York's dismal Census results are a bit misleading. They cover the whole decade of the 1990's, which includes the very bad years early in the decade. New York's performance from about 1993 to 1999 would have been a lot better.
[9. Assuming that businesses will pay huge premiums to locate in New York because the city's full of art museums and symphony orchestras is less logical than believing in the Easter Bunny.]
Are you saying that businesses ONLY reason for staying in NYC is for the proximity to cultural centers? That might be PART of the reason, but maybe it has something to do with the location of Wall Street, the fact that NYC has some 93 different ethnic groups living in it, or perhaps that we have three major airports and a massive transportation network in place? Cultural attractions ain't gonna be the #1 priority for major companies to pay premium real estate taxes...pleazzzze.
Oh no, I certainly don't believe that most businesses care at all about cultural attractions when it comes to location decisions. There are many more "harder" factors that count. Unfortunately, some of the more out-of-touch-with-reality New Yorkers (hello Upper West Side!) DO believe that the city's cultural attractions are enough to overcome a plethora of economic disadvantages. It's truly ludicrous that some people are so misguided.
I'm being a nitpicker, but who cares.
When you put in Upper West Side, put it in quotes, this way you come out clearly as talking about the stereotypical UWS state of mind, and not the neighborhood which is very diverse and consists of middle class people, some of which have never been in a limousine.
Well I did get a very late start, but I had to do some railfanning today. I got the 2:28pm OB train from the Sea CLiff RR station. It was a very slow ride, even after Mineola, it seemed we didn't whiz through to Jamaica like we normally do. Must've been due to the snow, which was covering the tracks with only rails visible.
Got on an M-3 at Jamaica, which was quite loud on those concrete ties they have west of Jamaica (concrete ties are noisier than wooden ones). But it was pretty fast right on through Woodside.
The Penn tunnels had lots of snow in them (how did it get there?). Must've been from trains but subway tunnels don't have any snow in them. Man that tunnel is leaky, the engineer had the window wiper going. I think the ice near the eastern portal is from leaks.
Going through there fast, almost too fast. Still doing 55mph right after the slow down signal. Then the bell rings and the engineer takes his hand off the contoller. I guess what was next was the emergency brakes, because I had to hold on real tight as the train came to an abrupt stop. Wonder why that happened.
Then took a D down to Grand street. They were running express (was PLan 4 only for Saturday?). It was very fast ride to Grand even though we had a Hippo.
Chinatown's streets and sidewalks could've been cleared a little better of snow, especially around East Broadway.
Then a B going back, got off at 34th to get something to eat in Manhattan mall. Wow, Stern's has been ransacked, and the bathrooms, well they were absolutely pitiful. I will surely not go in there again, flooded and full of papers.
It was pretty dead in there, but the food court was busy.
Then took an F train to Roosevelt, which was running express and was pretty fast. Then a 7 train, another fast ride to Flushing w/the window. Seemed to be alot of hotrod T/O's out there today.
Flushing's streets and sidewalks were pretty clear, but nowhere is immune to slush. Flushing wasn't too busy, neither was Chinatown, but certain spots were very busy, usually music stores and markets.
The snow looked really nice on the 7 el.
An uneventful N21 bus ride home.
subway tunnels don't have any snow in them
On Saturday, Cortlandt St on the N/R had a few inches of snow on the station platforms where there were sidewalk grates above. (I thought they're usually offset or have something in between to avoid letting whatever's on the sidewalk come straight down into the station, but I guess the snow made it in anyway.)
96th Street on the west side has grates over the center of the express tracks. Some snow got in there too.
Shawn.
Could somebody tell me the car assignment of those lines that were involved in the MannyB diversion circa 1986-1988?
Happy New Year
As I recall:
(B) R27/R30/slant R40 (to 57/7 BMT, Qnsboro Plz, Astoria)
(N) R32/R68 (to Astoria)
(R) R32/R46 (to 71st/Cont. IND)
(D) R32/R68 (to 57/7)
This was the time (1987) that the N and the R swapped terminals, R's now were being shopped at Jamaica, beforehand they didn't have direct access to a shop.
N's went to Astoria, and relied on Coney Island. This is why there was a mulitude of assignments, the N's started running the new R68s, and the R's took the R46's normally assigned to the N out of Jamaica.
These cars all were pre-GOH, and the original car numbers, larger window pains, and axiflow fans dominated the cars under the R42s.
B: UpperR42, lower R40 slants, R32's, odd R27/30
D: Upper R42's, lower R42's, R40's until October, when R68's took over
N Forest Hills period-R46/R32, afterwards-R68, R32 (although R46's ran to Astoria for a time in the fall of '87)
Q Same as lower D, but used a few R32's and didn't get newer R68's until early 1987.
R Astoria: everything except R38's, R10's and 75' cars. This line had the most diverse fleet I've ever seen. After 5/87 terminal swap to Forest Hills: R46/R32 (same as the N).
R16's ran an occasional train on both the B and Astoria R prior to their retirement in the spring of 1987.
Fore a brief time in the autumn of 1987 odd car assignments abounded. A few green R10 trains ran on the K/upper B line, a few redbird R30's ran on the R to Forest Hills, plenty of R46's ran to Astoria on the N, and 2 or 3 sets of R68's ran on the F.
If I remember well....
>B: UpperR42, lower R40 slants, R32's, odd R27/30
R32's, odd R27/30 run on the upper side as well
>D: Upper R42's, lower R42's, R40's until October, when R68's took over
R32's on the upper (and lower side) and R68's on the upper side after fall 88
>N Forest Hills period-R46/R32, afterwards-R68, R32 (although R46's ran to Astoria for a time in the fall of '87)
>Q Same as lower D, but used a few R32's and didn't get newer R68's until early 1987.
I remember the narrow "Q" letter on the pre-GOH R40's
>R Astoria: everything except R38's, R10's and 75' cars. This line had the most diverse fleet I've ever seen.
>After 5/87 terminal swap to Forest Hills: R46/R32 (same as the N).
Weren't there R46 even before the switch? I'm not sure but remember seeing big green round "RR" signs.
>R16's ran an occasional train on both the B and Astoria R prior to their retirement in the spring of 1987.
>For a brief time in the autumn of 1987 odd car assignments abounded. A few green R10 trains ran on the
>K/upper B line, a few redbird R30's ran on the R to Forest Hills, plenty of R46's ran to Astoria on the N, and 2
>or 3 sets of R68's ran on the F.
R68's on the F! I guess living on the Upper west side then, I missed the opportunity.
I remember the last night for the eighth Ave. "K". They were turning around everything.
R 40 Slants' on the "C" and "K" (for the new daytime "B"s). Next morning, the "C" was
R10, R27-30 and R32. After that for a while, R10's, 27-30's still showing "CC"
signs and "HUDSON TERMINAL" were not unusual either. The R10's even did the "A"
once again for the last time. The "J" even though given a new terminal were still running
the pre redbird R27-30 Graffiti trains (and red birds). And the 5 still looked like canvases.
The R-10s had "Hudson Terminal" destination signs on their original curtains. I'm pretty sure the R-27/30 did as well, at least originally. I saw only one such train on the AA, and it was headed in the opposite direction from where I was standing, so I didn't get a good look at any of the signs.
It would be very interesting if there is any documentation of the last revenue run of a train of R-10s on the A. Larry Redbird R-33 would have that sort of info, if anybody did.
What will happen to these (underused as is) lines when the LIRR East-side connection via 63rd St to Grand Central Terminal is built - (circa- 2008)? Admittedly, it would be difficult to convert the lines to subway service (I think HuntersPoint uses the main line to Woodside anyway), but if we could build another 2 tunnels under 34th Street (under the LIRR/ConRail tunnels, like 63rd Street), we might solve the QB congestion mess. The LIC line, if I remember correctly doesn't really have highly accessible station platforms, but doesn't a 34th St line make sense? (I know, I know, after the Javits extension, the Second Avenue subway, etc.) I could be totally wrong here, but the LIC line into 34th Street shouldn't cost a fortune- it does run through Elmhurst, Maspeth, Woodside, many communities that has passengers that take a bus to transfer to the "E","F", and "7" currently to get into Manhattan. I guess building a set of tunnels under the existing 4 under 34th St and linking it to the LIC station at Vernon Ave would be time-consuming & expensive, though, huh? But a 34th St line with stops at 2nd Avenue, Lex, 5th Avenue, Penn Station (7th-8th Ave), and Javits/11th Avenue means the "7" extension to Javits wouldn't be necessary, and if the new sports stadium over the LIRR rail yards is built as Rudy wants, this would be the subway line to get there. Any thoughts?
There are some good uses for them - such as conversion to subway use with construction of connecting tunnels from the 63rd St or other lines. It depends on time tables for accomplishment; availability of Capital Plan funds; priority vs. other projects.
The LIC line to Jamaica has some good possibilities, one of which is light rail. Such a conversion would be compatible with the existing infrastructure, could connect with the 7 at Vernon-Jackson and with the E/J at Jamaica using short street running segments. The Hunters Point terminal should be left as is since it is in the middle of the Main Line and adjacent to the 7 station.
As I recall, the LIC line was mentioned in the past as one of the routes for the long-dead "suoper express" that would have connected with the 63rd St. tunnel. At the time, the neighbeorhoods it went through objected vehemently, even though it would have brought them new subway service.
Let's be careful about "neighborhoods objecting vehemently." More often than not this has meant a small subset of people objecting to it (which is their perfect right), pretending to represent the entire neighborhood (which is common, and, unfortunately, dishonest). Newspapers and TV stations usually do not bother to find out who and how many are really against it, or for it. This was demonstrably true with regard to AirTrain.
Also, the majority in a neighborhood may be against a specific plan, but not another. For example, an elevated train to La Guardia from the Ditmars terminal would generate considerable,sincere opposition; a new underground line offering new ADA stations in East Elmhurst would probably generate a lot of support.
"For example, an elevated train to La Guardia from the Ditmars terminal would generate considerable,sincere opposition;"
I grew up near Ditmars. I often hear about opposition to an extension of the N to LaGuardia. This puzzles me since only about 2 blocks of residents along 31st street from Ditmars to 20th Ave would be affected. The rest of the line could be sited through industrial and landfill areas along 19th Ave. And the net effect of an extension would be increased service to the Ditmars area via the center express track.
Wow! And here I was, a NIMBY skeptic, over estimating opposition to a project!
Peter Vallone doesn't like the elevated extension, ostensibly because it doesn't provide new subway service to East Elmhurst and other places. Some Astoria residents may be opposed because they're guaranteed a seat on the train when they get on at Ditmars. That's a good deal, and maybe some aren't willing to share.
I personally like a service which would offer a connection to people coming from eastern Queens, which the N train does not do. I wrote to Vallone about extending underground service from Steinway Street through East Elmhurst to the airport; he liked the idea and sent it to the MTA for comment. Underground service via 63rd St is another possibility. Please note that Vallone has enough clout to kill the project.
If this post appears twice, my apologies. I submitted an earlier one but the computer froze up.
The only problem is that the Steinway tracks are overused and the Astoria line tracks are underused.
Granted. I would also support a branch off the 63rd St tunnel.
Rebuilding the N train so that you have a new underground subway in Astoria and modifying the route so it serves more areas than just the airport (branch to Whitestone?) might be a good idea. Boston's rebuild of the old elevated Orange Line to an underground line was a hit with riders (watch reruns of St. Elsewhere on cable TV's Bravo channel to see the elevated line). Of course, that would be at least a $2 billion project.
Boston's New Orange Line carries lots of traffic, but only serves the neighborhoods of two former stations (Forest Hills and Green). Former patrons of Egleston, Dudley, Northhampton and Dover have to take buses to the new line. The MBTA promised replacement service from Dudley to downtown, light rail at first, then trackless trolleys and now a low emission, low floor, low efficiency, low capacity bus.
Without significantly increasing rapid transit mileage or ridership, the Southwest Corridor reroute significantly increased bus mileage. It would be like taking the #7 line and puting it on the Port Washington ROW. We got rid of the El, but rerouted its riders through hell!
You make an interesting point about the Orange Line's reroute. However, in our case here in New York, the underground routing alternatives would serve more neighborhoods than the elevated extension (but my fellow Subtalker's views about underused tracks are quite valid) and would encounter less political resistance.
MBTA has a lot of accomplishments - I hope the "can do" spirit will allow reintroduction of rail transit to the neighborhoods you speak of.
This puzzles me since only about 2 blocks of residents along 31st street from Ditmars to 20th Ave would be affected.
Yes, but the entire neighborhood, plus Peter Vallone, have rallied to oppose the extension. I remember at one of the public hearings for the N extension, some Astoria residents said the only acceptable way to extend the N was if the MTA tore down the entire Astoria el and replaced it with a subway. Most others simply tried to suggest other alignments in Queens, which prompted NIMBY objections from people living in those other areas. Basically no one wanted the extension through their neighborhood, even though almost everyone claimed to accept the idea of a subway line to LGA. Classic NIMBY.
I know this will never happen but...
Can't the MTA just use money generated by fares or some money that dosen't some from the government? Since the project wouldn't not be publicly funded then who cares what the people in that area think. They're not paying for it, so why listen to them complain? Is there some way these people can block construction besides refusing to fund it?
Shawn.
Remember that the MTA is part of the government, so there are restrictions that apply to them no matter what they do.
However, many of the restrictions that we are familiar with, and bureaucratic hurdles, are a result of federal funding. As I understand it, if a project goes through normal bureaucratic channels, and most of them do, to compete for federal transit dollars, it needs to have certain studies at certain steps. Major Investment Studies, Environmental impace statements, etc. (I believe that certain projects, like the new penn station project, are line items inserted into the federal budget and thus escape this review.)
IIRC, the southern NJ light rail project is being built without federal funds. The DVARP point of view is that they chose to do this because the whole thing is pretty much a boondoggle, so when they did ridership studies and cost analyses (which are part of the Major Investment Study) they would have looked terrible and the feds would not have given them money anyways. So they skipped the time, expense, and embarrassment, and funded the project themselves.
If DVARP is right, the studies would have showed that limited transit dollars could have spent elsewhere with better results. They say NJT forced the SNJ project through because politically they had to build something in south jersey and this project had less powerful nimby opposition than other, BETTER projects in south jersey. I guess it depends on your point of view - if you think its better to get something built, anything, in your area, you thing NJT is doing the right thing. If instead you need to spend your limited transit bucks in the best possible way, you think the project is worse than useless.
So perhaps the studies have some purpose. I think a lot of people here like to rant about the time and money being spent proving that the 2nd Ave. subway will be useful. I imagine most of the time and money on the 2nd avenue subway studies is going into engineering designs and the like, not environmental impact statements.
One thing is for sure, the 2nd ave subway, and the vast majority of the other projects we discuss here, won't happen without federal $$$. And we may all know that they make sense, but uncle sam is going to ask for a little proof before he sends $5B or so up to NYC. These studies are not going away...
(I'm reading Ambrose's book about building the transcontinental RR, Nothing like it in the world. It turns out that detailed studies of the route were crucial for getting congress and private investors to fund the building of the railroad. So one of the most important transportation projects in our countries history was delayed for years as the studies dragged out.)
I would have no argument with you on most of your points (I am not familiar with the South Jersey project).
Some engineering was done on the newest 2nd Av incarnation - but it is a two-track stubway - more work needs to be done to plan the full-length line. The ridership's there; the train isn't.
Again, I think we need to be careful about using the terms "everyone" and "no one" without careful research. The NIMBYs may show up to meetings and try to drown out everyone, but they, in most cases, do not represent the majority.
Peter Vallone's support is politically important. But he has indicated provisional support for other alignments. The MTA has to secure his cooperation, and with his help, secure some of the other pols.
With a careful plan, lots of public notification, lots of visible concessions (like rebuilding a block everyone wants rebuilt, landcaping a park, providing soundproofing to apartment buildings), and crossing t's and dotting i's, a rail link to La Guardia can get done. The real concerns should be realistically addressed; any leftover NIMBYs will then be run over, frankly. They should be allowed to vent, then told where to buy Metrocards (because they will be the first in line to use the subway when it opens).
We can't be afraid of NIMBYs - we just have to know how to deal with them.
Here's an idea. Build a new Ditmars station underground. The portal from the el would be just beyond Astoria Blvd. That stretch of 31st St. is industrial, so no NIMBYs need aply. Benefits -- new Ditmars station would actually be at Ditmars, rather that 1/2 block south as now, making bus connection better. El at Ditmars commercial area is eliminated. New station would have 3 tracks, so it would be an express stop for LGA extension. Residents along 31st would not have a new el overshadowing them. Then bring the extension back above ground at the ConEd plant at 20th Ave, run it on surface or as el along 19th Ave. industrial wasteland to LGA, with possible stations at Steinway St, and Hazen St. This route with a new short underground stretch at Ditmars has to be cheaper than new underground from R train at Steinway thru E. Elmhurst, and uses underutilized Astoria line trackage.
True, but it doesn't offer any connections to passengers coming from Queens.
Here's another part of this problem I didn't mention before. Claire Shulman has been pushing for new intermodal (subway-LIRR) terminals, better LIRR service for Queens, and has seen some of her projects stymied (though the completion of 63rd St will be a partial victory, and she did support AirTrain. An N extension would be seen clearly as a benefit to Manhattanites primarily, and would be a snub to Queens pols. Another route offering tangible benefits to Queens commuters would help garner critical political support more easily.
I hate to admit it sometimes, but if you have to offer solutions which are politically palatable, and an N extension might not be. And politics is what helps get you past the NIMBYs.
An N extension to LAG is accessible to the rest of Queens through the 7 transfer at QP ( though in a rather roundabout way). You're right about the need for compromise, though.
Not a bad idea. Unfortunately many will still oppose it because of the construction disruption....
Why wouldn't they object as the super-express would have provided no service to them.
Arti
Translate that message into: We're holding out our hands so you can pay us off (schoolyard bully style).
Actually, even a "super-express" can be of great value to a neighborhood:
1) You can always add stations later if communities demand them.
2) The improvements visited on decrepit ROW, including fixing fences, improving landscapes and soundproofing, rebuilding overpasses etc. can greatly improve the appearance and function of the neighborhood
3) Employment opportunities during and after the project.
"It doesn't stop here so it can't help us" is narrow-minded enough to be a great excuse for NIMBYs. Don't buy it, unless they offer you a piece of the Brooklyn Bridge along with it (two for one special).
I like light rail, so I should be open-minded about this. But in NY light rail is probably a waste of money because if you are going to revive a ROW leading to an area with a subway connection, you're better off (more cost effective) introducing a subway train, not a trolley, so you can take maximal advantage of that connection.
This is beginning to sound like the thread about the Philly area Metrorail.
We'll just have to wait and see if Vallone becomes mayor or a private citizen in November.
BTW, any chance that the anti-Green entering the White House will do something about all the trees that get chopped down to make paper for all the environmental impact statements that are required to prove that trains are less polluting than cars?
Hello all. Happy holidays and such. I'd just like to know the obcession with the "Juicers?" Subways ane the current model of electric locomotives do nothing at all for me. I don't see anything very much appealing about riding through an underground passage in semi-box cars. I'm much more partial to buses and diesel locomotives myself. My favorite bus, the always appealing and always reliable RTS and my favorite locomotive the GP-30.
Tell me about the NYC subway system and what's so great about it. Being from Houston and not traveling much, I've never experoenced any form of rail travel. Well, I did take the monorail at Disney World once, but i really wanted to take one of their buses (they operate an almost exclusively RTS fleet).
Thanks.
Jason
Cool, another GP-30 fan. I love that duck back. I myself prefer heavy rail electric locomotives.
You have expressed what seems like an aesthetic value. Fine. The view in a tunnel is certainly not exciting.
My POV: Electric locomotives and self-propelled units (MU) are capable of higher speeds and acceleration. Faster ride, more exciting, get there sooner. Diesel engines produce particulate smog, which exacerbates pulmonary illnesses and costs society in lost productivity and healthcare costs, a problem particularly in cities like Houston, where air quality is the worst in the nation.
Electricity for MU's (subway and commuter rail cars) can be generated in a variety of ways, including methods which avoid air pollution or at least minimize it, is more versatile, and efficient. One electric locomotive is usually much more powerful than a diesel, because diesel locomotives are diesel-electric anyway. The diesel engine does only one task: spin a generator. The diesel itself is "dead weight" which the train has to carry around. An electric locomotive drawing power from a catenary devotes much more of its own weight to placing traction on the rails. A classic example from history is a GG-1 electric locomotive racing at speed with a train that would have otherwise required three diesel-electric units to achieve a lower top speed.
Diesel-mechanical units (eg with selectable geared transmissions like trucks) are not practical with trains. Disel-hydraulic units have existed (Krause-Maffei? Other builders?) but have generally be judged as failures.
Well, I don't like smog and air pollution, but I find the "unreliable" diesel WAY more interesting than your bread and butter electric cars. I liked the GG-1, but they had been gone from Amtrak for a few years by the time I was even born. They don't make those anymore or any other intresting electric unit for that matter.
Most railfans LOVE steam engines and they threw HUGE clouds of black smoke into the air, so much as they were banned from NYC resulting in yes, the unrelaible but "cleaner" diesel engine. Diesel engines were also more relaible and cost effective than the steamers and I've read it's easier for frieght railroads to operate a fleet of diesels compared to electric units. Plus, there would be the cost of putting up electrical cable all over the country and the maintenence of that along with the rolling stock itself.
Also, diesel fuel is much cleaner than it was say 20-30 years ago and the locomotives get more powerful with each new model. Back in the 50s, there were experimental locomotives that could produce 6000+ hp and were NOT electric. They were however to costly and were scrapped early.
I used to be a steam fan, but now I prefer Electrics and Diesels. However steam still has the single unit power record. I have yet to see a single unit diesel or electric locomotive achieve Q2 power (8000hp). Of course the Q2 burned money.
HHP-8 is rated at 8000 hp, the GG-1s can do 8000+ for short periods, and I think there are a few > 8000hp continuous units out there.
BTW, I believe diesels are rated in the US at the prime mover, which means they don't really put out as much power as it seems, because of "transmission" losses. There's about 20% due to electrical generation, I believe
Etlectrics can accelerate also because they're lighter, and have an overload capacity that diesels don't have. Anyone who's used to the standard Amteak F-40 or GE units is in for a BIG surprise if they take the Acela express. And even the AEM-7 hauled units aren't bad. Show me an 8 car Amfleet train pulled by a SINGLE diesel up and down 1.5% grades with the kind of acceleration the AEM-7s (and the AEM-7ACs, which feel even better, IMHO) can do.
Oh yeah, and if you still don't get it, take NJT out of Hoboken, and hope they stop at MMC. The start from a dead stand still to track speed is a jaw dropper.
Taste is in the eye of the beholder. I was speaking to the efficiency and utility of electric motive power; however, I can certainly understand your appreciation of the nicer lines of the diesels. They have their own character.
You are correct when you cite improvements to disel locos. GE's Genesis series provides 4500 horsepower per engine, and better aerodynamics (so less drag), than previous Amtrak units built by General Motors. I think they look great, too - but in the Northeast Corridor, since we have the electric infrastructure already up, there is no reason not to use electrics.
In the 1950's, Krause-Maffei built gas turbine powered locomotives (essentially a jet engine hooked up to reduction gears), which achieved 6,000+ horses per unit. Also, Union Pacific RR used a disel equivalent of the Big Boy; they purchased locos with two 16-cylinder supercharged diesel engines, each loco putting out 6,600 horses. But these were jdged too difficult to maintain (for example, the gas turbine was fouled by the Bunker C oil used to fuel it).
You are correct when you say it is easier to use diesel locos in areas not already equipped with electric catenaries. However, that is an upfront cost savigs; there are places outside the Northeast Corridor where the upfront investment of installing catenaries is balanced by the savings achieved with electric locomotives (not to mention reduction in air pollution). So a benefit/costanalysis would need to be done to decide which strategy would pay off.
I wonder if Genesis locos can be retrofitted to run on cleaner-burning natural gas. If I am not mistaken, the same engine running on LNG produces a little less horsepower per unit fuel than diesel, but perhaps this difference would be marginal -or one could run the disel at higher RPM (and lower fuel efficiency) to compensate...
Diesels could be run on LNG or CNG because there are some low hp switchers that run on th alternative fuels. It'd be nice to see a rebuilt SD40 running on an alternative fuel as well though.
There ARE gas turbine units ... and they're LOUD! One of the problems with natural gas though is most railroads are in PROPANE country. No gas pipelines nearby. Just so's you know, Selkirk is not one of them - several nat gas pipelines (including the MAJOR one that feeds Con Ed) is located right here - Tennessee Nat Gas and others) ... but in railroading where the serious "national interest" stuff, shipping of UPS trucks and other freight, is done, there is no pipeline and this is the reason why smelly diesels are what provide traction away from "mass geese haulage" (ask any C/R exposed to old timers what "geese" are) in areas where electricity is available.
Don't mind me, I'm an old timey railroader who did "ta" duty and also got to do the real choochoos as well (never lost an ounce of respect for my fellow TWU brothers even if I turncoated and did BLE and UTU). In the open country, the mighty diesel is the ONLY way to get from hither to yon ... there ain't no 600DC in Voorheesville ... and ain't no 13kV or higher either ... you either make your own electrons in that GM or GE "still" or you push it with a lever ... them's the options.
There is nothing I would enjoy more than to see solar panels generate 180kW at night when we actually do "movements without benefit of Senator Goodman" ... sure hope nobody here takes any offense, but the realities of ensuring you folks down in NYC have food and water could not possibly be done without smelly diesels ... be grateful for what ya got - NYS brings electric dereg this coming year and up here in the Albany country area, we already own candles and fossil fuel generators we can setup outside the house. Suggest YOU do same. :)
No animals were harmed in this email though after eating our holly plants, "BAMBI MUST DIE!" ...
A lot of truth in all this but after travelling thru Europe for 6 weeks its nice to see what can be done with electrification when it becomes the plan. Admittedly they have a lot more density of population and service but then we DID have the Pennsy mainline and even in dsolate Montana there was the electric Milwaukee once. It can be done. But as I did on BN and MRL..make the best of what we have.
Alternative fuels are for loosers. I advocate cleaning things up from the other end. Plant more trees and recycle. Also trains are far more efficient than trucks so they have some leeway. I want to see EMD go back to 2-cycle engines. Long live the 710 and ditch this new H series crap.
Planting trees and recycling are great, but as to the rest, well, it sounds like your're speaking with your heart, not your head (that's OK- that's why we're all human and don't have pointed ears like Star Trek's Mr. Spock).
I just want my cake and the consumption thereof. My plan of more trees, more recycling and more mass transit lets us save the earth and use our big powerful V-8 SUV's yo get where transit can't take us. If we save the planet by forcing people to drive little CNG roller-skates we'd have a situation where the living would evny the dead.
How about banning private autos within a 30 mile radius of Philly and a 50 mile radius of New York, but subsidizing SUV's outside this area?
How would people who live in Philly be able to leave Philly if they don't have a car?
If you can't get there by train, it's not worth going to.
Unfortunitly the best way to railfan is by car. You can't take a picture of a train from the inside.
Some cute pictures can be had on curves...
>>>Alternative fuels are for loosers.<<<
Rather be a living loser than a dead winner. The great thing about alternative fuels is that one can operate vehicles without much damage to the enviroment as opposed to diesel and gasoline. I would like to see more trees and plants planted, but if there is a way to run trains where there are no wires, and operate a bus fleet without damaging the ozone, then I'll take it. Sure it will be expensive at first, but in the long run, our planet will thank us for it.
By the time the ramifacations hit we'll all be long dead of old age.
"I want to see EMD go back to 2-cycle engines"
Ever clean the airboxes on a 567 or 645? I'm talking serious oily filth there. I've done it, and it's no picnic. When the airbox is clean, you (and the 500 rags you used) are filthy.
Compared to a 567 or 645, an Alco, GE or Fairbanks-Morse engine is clean as a whistle after 15,000 hours.
The exhaust of a mis-fired steam engine is clean by comparison to an EMD 2-cycle.
Yes diesels pollute, but imagine how much more polltuion there would be if all of those TOFC's were being pulled by individual trucks?
And take everyone on the bus and put them each in a car, and see how much worse the smog gets.
Off Topic: Which was/is more powerful GG-1s or Toasters?
Dave
A GG-1 had c.4800 continious hp where an AEM-7 has either 6000 or 7000. However a GG-1 could overload to 8000 hp and it might have had more tractive effort becuase it had 12 motors on 6 axles.
A toaster (DC) can pull 7 cars up the hill into Jersey out of the tube from a stop; a GG-1 could pull at least 23 cars.
I thought a toaster could pull 9. One of my books rates the GG-1 at 4950 hp continuously and 8500hp overload with 70,000 pounds of TF. They rate an AEM-7 with 53,000 pounds of TF. FYI they also rate an FL-9 with 58,000 pounds of TF.
I posted something on this board last month about how many cars the AC rebuilt toasters could pull up the hill from a dead start, but the memory is one of the first things to go, IIRC. Or is it third? I think the DC toasters could haul 9 cars if they didn't stop in the tunnel.
I was 150 miles away from home on New Years Eve, and got 15 minutes on someone else's PC to check out SubTalk.
I was all set to post a greeting when I realized that I had no idea what my password was.
Talk about frustration!
I know I'm late, but, better late than never...
Happy New Year, Everyone!
Thank you
Can someone confirm for me if there's an odd couple made up of one GE R-32 and one R-38? Someone told me he thought he saw them married yesterday, and were not in separate pairs. Don't know of the car numbers involved, but I am interested to know if there is such an odd couple out there...
-Stef
The R38 class is the only car class to not have any married pairs that are out of numerical sequence.
Unless this happened recently, your friend was mistaken.
I took the C this weekend and there was a R32/R38 set train half each. So how could that be?
It's not unusual to see 32s and 38s mixed they do it all the time, on the C and A at least.
Peace,
ANDEE
And the C is only 8 cars long so it could be 1/2 and 1/2
Peace,
ANDEE
I think he ment the one car is a R32 & the other is a R38. Not half the train.
Thanks! That's exactly what I said. It isn't uncommon to see a train of R-32s coupled to a train of R-38s, but having an individual R-32 married permanently to an R-38 is one of those rare items.
Zman hasn't seen anything out of the ordinary, so I'll assume my friend was just seeing things.....
-Stef
Not so! I saw them as well, but in my suprise I failed to get the car numbers. I saw them just before Christmas weekend . Maybe the 20th or 21st of December last year.
avid
Be sure and let Wayne know so he can update his records.
Lou, you're late. That particular consist has been around for a month or more (a number of SubTalkers have seen it in action).
And 32's and 38's can certainly MU w/o any problems. Aside from minor interior and exterior detailings the cars are basically the same.
BMTman
I've always been intrigued by cars 3594-3595.
They both have an R32 exterior car body, but the inside looks exactly like an R38 with absolutely no interior signs of an R32.
Does anyone know the story behind these two unique cars?
They're the R-32 GE rebuilds. One pair is used for parts, the other 8 cars are in service. The A/C doesn't work and there are no parts to repair it, so these cars do the same vanishing act as the R33s during the summer.
If I read the R32 page on this site correctly, there were 2 competing designs for the interior of the R32. In 1964, the 2 competing designes were put on public display at 34th/6th, th a married pair representing each. The present design won. Perhaps those 2 cars represented the losing design, which was later used on the R38.
Just an educated guess.
Ok, after all the NY posts...I couldn't resist but to put this list together. I am not a permanent Boston resident, just a college student who has been there for a few years.
1.) There are not 25 letters in the alphabet, there are 26...please learn how to use the letter R correctly.
2.) While the "T" is historical, there are many problems with it. Its too slow and crowded at times, no real express track (yet they run express trains that must slow down inside the stations), but id does get you where you wanna go....eventually. Hopefully the addition of triple car trains on the green line will solve a couple of problems.
3.) The Bid Dig will not solve all travel problems, and it will still be quite awhile before it opens. Boston's streets are still way to narrow, there are to many confusing "circle" intersections, and it's both hard and sometimes expensive to get a place to park.
4.) You better pray that Breda will get the type 8s not to be lemons, even though they should have purchased more kinki-sharyo vehicels instead, which now come in low-floor style. But no, the MBTA went with the lowest bidder, and look what happened.
5.) Stop pretending to be NYC...cuz ur not. I wonder where the tree lighting at Prudential Tower idea came from, or why we should be excited about Boston's sports teams.
6.) Speaking of sports, I understand if our fellow Red Sox fans hate the Yankees...but really, wouldn't it help your team when they are playing NY to chant something positive like "Let's Go Red Sox" instead of just "Yankees Suck?" Also, try to be nicer to Yankee fans...even if they are wearing a Yankee hat or shirt (sorry Dand124). New Yorkers should give the same respect to Red Sox fans as well.
Ok, again, this is meant to be all in good fun.....but I am interested in other fellow subtalkers comments.
Peace,
Nick
As a long-time New Yorker who truly believes NY is the Capital of the world, I like Boston, and I like the T. It is too slow, and there is no real express service. But it got me where I wanted to go, and I'm glad to hear about the new Silver Line and placing more of the trolley service underground (with ADA improvements). I hope MBTA keeps up the good work.
[I like the T. It is too slow, and there is no real express service.]
Ron, are you only talking about the "Green line" ? because the other colors typically do 50 MPH ... can't do that in NYC !
As for the Green line ... ever been out to Riverside ? I like the hopping around like a jack rabbit in heat.
Mr t__:^)
I like the Green Line. The T is slow because there is no true express service. Yes, you can get 50 mph trains. But they have to accelerate there and decelerate to stop. So the average running speed, including stops, might be only 15-20.
To illustrate the effect of this, consider: Assuming perfect track conditions and all green signals under Central Park West. If I am on an express train with top speed of 35 mph, and you are on a local train with top speed of 50 (but you have to make every station stop, and average dwell time per station is 20 seconds), which one of us will get from Columbus Circle to Harlem first?
Understand your point, but next time you're up there try the Red line going to Braintree ... nicely spaced stations. Or the Blue line going to the airport ... again some long runs amoung the weeds (kind of reminds me of my favorite museum :-)
Mr t
Know each one well - and I like the Blue Line run to Wonderland. Hope they extend it.
Yes - but the changes in the Blue Line signal system in recent years are abominable! Uphill Grade Timers? In the good old days, once the red at the pump room cleared, you had solid green to Maverick unless the station was occupied, you got your momentum for the 5% grade and could coast into the station! Now it is painful to watch a train which should be under full power having to come to almost a complete stop on the steepest grade in the system, and then crawl into the station. [Only NStar (formerly Boston Edison) likes this! $$$ :)] The situation repeats at Airport, where again a timer slows the train unnecessarily as you climb the grade. The third atrocity is the string of six red signals approaching Wonderland, closely spaced and all either timers or home signals! Back in the old days there were two 20 mph timer approaching the platform, the first cleared to the second and the second clearted to a yellow onto the platform. The present system is overkill!
It will all be for moot when we get CBTC. Come on New York....get it right the first time on the Canarsie. That's the one the T is watching.
6.) Speaking of sports, I understand if our fellow Red Sox fans hate the Yankees...but really, wouldn't it help your team when they are playing NY to chant something positive like "Let's Go Red Sox" instead of just "Yankees Suck?" Also, try to be nicer to Yankee fans...even if they are wearing a Yankee hat or shirt (sorry Dand124). New Yorkers should give the same respect to Red Sox fans as well.
Don't you know, Red Sox fans are genetically unable to be civil to opposing teams!
Hell, they can't even be civil to the RED SOX! You expect the opponents to get respect?
no only teams in from New York that stole all of our pleyers.
[3.) The Bid Dig will not solve all travel problems, and it will still be quite awhile before it opens.]
Speaking of this ... understand they had a party down there ... something about folks running on the ROW between a couple of stations
Mr t__:^)
They had a tour of it on Sunday, here's the story from the Boston Globe,
BIG DIG TOUR
Peace,
ANDEE
Great article. I believe there is a website devoted to it - with pictures, movies and construction updates, similar to the AirTrain website maintained by the Port Authority. If I am not mistaken, it is www.bigdig.com
1) Thay alsa naad to lan that tha aar atha vaals than ah.
3) Traffic circles are the greatest invention in traffic control. They might take a bit more thought than a traffic light, but anyone w/ 3 brain cells can learn to navigate them. On average you will spend less time waiting at a traffic circle and they have very few fatal car accidents.
OK Rookie, we'll take them one at a time!
1. We do have a regional accent. BTW, are you from toidy toid street or Lon Giland?
2. The Green Line is a trolley line and doesn't even have the capability to be a subway line. (It's the one we let the college students ride on! That's why nobody really cares that the type 8's aren't here.)
3. The Big Dig will not solve all the traffic woes, but it will help. Now that the good people of NY had the sense to vote for someone from outside of NY, you too might get some federal money for a big project.
4. The MBTA had no choice but to go with the lowest bidder. It's a state law. Again, nobody is really excited about the lack of new Green Line cars ...... they're just being used by college students and some displaced New Yorkers who live in Brookline and Newton.
5. I think you'd have a tough time proving that tree lighting came from NYC. But the concept of First Night Celebrations, (no boose, no flooze, good for the kiddies) did start in Boston back in the seventies.
6. The Red Sox will do a lot better when the New York family that has owned them for the last seventy years, finaly sells!
Oh and how come, if New York is so great, you have to "paahk your caah" here in Boston for four years when it comes time for college???
Really I want to thank you New Yorkers for coming to live in Boston, well Brookline, Brighton, and Newton, and keeping those trolleys full. But, we are keeping the real subways for ourselves. Sorry!
Yo, In philly its pronounced 33rd schtreet. And when you paak your caar don't forget to paat at the gaabage. Gaad Gad.
Now that the good people of NY had the sense to vote for someone from outside of NY, you too might get some federal money for a big project.
This was a mistake....we all know that the carpet bagger just wants to rule the world, and now she is a step closer to doing so.
. The MBTA had no choice but to go with the lowest bidder. It's a state law. Again, nobody is really excited about the lack of new Green Line cars ...... they're just being used by college students and some displaced New Yorkers who live in Brookline and Newton
It's too bad if that was state law...perhaps it needs some modification. As for not caring about college students, let me remind you that there are 45 colleges in and around Boston, which 250,000 college students attend. The only annpying part is BU using the B line as their student shuttle.
Oh and how come, if New York is so great, you have to "paahk your caah" here in Boston for four years when it comes time for college???
I will agree with you on one aspect here....Boston is a better place to go to college, since there are so many colleges and college students.
By the way, I am from CT, and therefore have career speech :) -Nick
Nick, I'm also from CT ... what part of the state ?
As for living ... I still like Boston for that ... it was a real treat for me to overnight on Beacon Street last summer ! However, the colored lines in Boston can't hold a candle to NYC ... even though I did enjoy riding them again.
Mr t__:^)
Nick, I'm also from CT ... what part of the state ?
I'm on the shoreline in the southwestern part of CT...u? -Nick
I grew up in a little town called Haddam Neck ... 50 families in the summer time. The big deal of the YEAR was the Country Fair on Labor Day. The "Airline" route still existed when I was growing up (NH to Boston via Middeltown, Willimantic, Putnam, etc.). Also the line along the CT river went from Saybrook to Middletown (the portion north to Hartford had already be cut back). I got introduced to mass transit in Boston in the 60s ... lived on the Green line (Beacon Street) ... used it to go to work & school.
Mr t__:^)
I have relatives in East Haddam...sometimes I take the shoreline east to old saybrook to visit them.
I was introduced to mass transit in NYC back in the early to mid 1980s when I would visit another relative in Queens....I was fascinated by the subways from day one!
I'm in my 3rd year at school in Boston now. For 2 years I went to school near the green line near the B, C, and D lines...but now I've transferred and am closer to the Mattapan station. -Nick
What a SMALL World ... ever been to the Opera house in East Haddam ?
My mom goes there frequently with her brother & his wife. Had a cusin who did set design there before he went to clown school in Fla. Now he's doing computer graphics. Another SubTalker & friend of mine went to Moodus for a Jazz concert ... this same uncle was in the audiance ... they didn't meet.
Too bad we didn't meet up on the T party last year.
One of the great pleasures for me is all ther SubTalkers that I have met, e.g. when 8th Ave Steve makes a joke I can SEE the smile on his face, or the one that heypaul does.
Mr t__:^)
Never been to the opera house, but certainly I have seen it. I have been to Gillete Castle, Devil's Hopyard, and the Essex steam train/river boat though.
I wish that I was at the T party....I thought everyone was meeting at Park Street at 10 AM, and nobody was there at 10:20 so I left (cuz i got there a few mins late myself figuring i missed everyone). But it turns out nobody showed up until 10:30 :( -Nick
BTW, ever hear the Moodus noises ?
Mr t__:^)
Although Boston may have the rep, it's a not-so-known secret that the Philly area has more colleges and college students than any other city in the country. Boston just seems like such a college town because its so much smaller, and hence has a higher proportion of college students.
2. The Green Line is a trolley line and doesn't even have the capability to be a subway line. (It's the one we let the college students ride on! That's why nobody really cares that the type 8's aren't here.)
The Green Line to Riverside may as well be commuter rail! It amazes me how there's such little capacity on such a far-reaching line.
6. The Red Sox will do a lot better when the New York family that has owned them for the last seventy years, finaly sells!
Sorry - you're cursed, and you just have to live with it :)
Oh and how come, if New York is so great, you have to "paahk your caah" here in Boston for four years when it comes time for college???
Because the New York area, for having so many people, such an extensive transportation system, and so much money, is severly lacking in colleges and universities (note sarcasm).
The Green Line to Riverside may as well be commuter rail! It amazes me how there's such little capacity on such a far-reaching line.
It was a commuter rail line. It was converted in 1959 from an abandoned Boston & Albany branch. It has carried more passengers as a streetcar/light rail line than it ever did as a railroad.
The "capacity" problem is related to a power problem. The Type 7's & 8's (if they ever get there) draw more power than a 3 car train of PCC's. The T has to beef up the power before three car trains of LRV's can be operated regularly.
The Red Sox will do a lot better when the New York family that has owned them for the last seventy years, finaly sells!
Tom Yawkey saved the Red Sox and made them into a good team. without him they would not be playing in boston now
I agree about the express tracks. If you read my trip report, I mentioned I was on an express green line which wasn't that great.
The transfer between the Green and Red lines is Park Street, not Pawk Street.
And when walking across the Congress Street Bridge, I must have seen one huge construction crane for every three tall buildings. Is this the Big Dig or the Big Inconvienence?
Stop pretending to be NYC...cuz ur not
good
no real express track (yet they run express trains that must slow down inside the stations)
Thats because when you have an express track
there arre stations that don't get served by the express trains. people in boston go nuts when one part of the city gets better service than they do. People who use the savin hill stop on the red line have been trying to get braintree trains to stop there since it opened.
but really, wouldn't it help your team when they are playing NY to chant something positive like "Let's Go Red Sox" instead of just "Yankees Suck?"
the yankees stole the red sox when a new yorker bought the sox and sold babe ruth and the rest of the Red Sox start to the Yanks. 3/4 of the yanks teams of 20s were on the sox in the 1910s.
but really, wouldn't it help your team when they are playing NY to chant something positive like "Let's Go Red Sox" instead of just "Yankees Suck?"
The yankees are on such a high horse they need to be constantly reminded how much they really suck. Also if p is the opposite to q NOT p is the same as q. Therefore "Yankees Suck" is equilivent to "Red Sox Rule".
there are to many confusing "circle" intersections
Yeah, but one of them is Leverett Circle :-)
(See my email address if you need an explanation.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If there are any working motormen on this list, I need some info badly:
I expect to be called soon from the new TA motorman's job list--at least I think it'll be soon, because I had a pretty low list number. Had a "survey" test a couple weeks ago; no one offered any info there and have heard nothing since. My phone calls fell on deaf ears. Anyone know how long they usually take to put people to work?
Question #2: Excluding the one week training class, how long do they generally allow for learning the job itself?
Is the time allowed sufficient?
Question #3: Are new motorman placed on an extra list?
Question #4: How do they treat the extra men? Working now for a RR (which shall go nameless) where extra people often get split days off and have to stand by on their rest days.
Question #5: Is there a bidding system for positions?
Question #6: If I would in fact start out on an extra list, do regular positions frequently come up, and does a new man have much chance of getting one?
Question #7: What other positions would I have access to from a motorman's job, either through bidding, or whatever system there is? Any promotion possibilities?
Question #8: Is there much overtime?
Question #9: Heard the city has a good package. Can anyone fill me in on vacation, sick and personal days, retirement?
Question #10: How are the working conditions, in general?
I really appreciate any advice you can give; it's impossible to get any info from NYCTA.
Thanks,
nyhal
I really appreciate any advice you can give; it's impossible to get any info from NYCTA
You have to read the board. All of your questions have been answered at one time or another during the past month.
Tom
Even though Old Tom was right, I'll answer your questions since you appear to be a new SubTalker.
>>>Anyone know how long they usually take to put people to work?<<<
Not being mean, but don't sweat it. They'll call you when they'll call you. That's what everyone else did.
>>>Question #2: Excluding the one week training class, how long do they generally allow for learning the job itself?<<<
3 months in the IRT, 5 1/2 months IND/BMT.
>>>Question #3: Are new motorman placed on an extra list?<<<
Yes. In the IND/BMT, you're on the "extra extra" list for 2 years.
>>>Question #4: How do they treat the extra men? Working now for a RR (which shall go nameless) where extra people often get split days off and have to stand by on their rest days.<<<
They treat you OK. You can start work in any of the 4 boroughs (no S.I) on any given day. You'll always get two consecutive days off. Most likely Tues/Wed or Wed/Thur when you start. And when you're off, you're off.
>>>Question #5: Is there a bidding system for positions?<<<
You pick jobs according to seniority. It'll be two years(IND/BMT) before you get to pick a job.
>>>Question #6: If I would in fact start out on an extra list, do regular positions frequently come up, and does a new man have much chance of getting one?<<<
There is something called a "vacancy bid" that occurs once a pick (a pick usually lasts 5 months) when some jobs have been vacated due to promotions, retirement, etc. A new man has very little chance of getting one of these jobs as this bid also goes in order of seniority.
>>>Question #7: What other positions would I have access to from a motorman's job, either through bidding, or whatever system there is? Any promotion possibilities?<<<
The only three promotional titles available to a train operator is: Train Dispatcher, Yard Dispatcher(hard to get), and Train Service Supervisor (oversees T/O's and Conductors). All promotional positions are accessed via civil service exams.
>>>Question #8: Is there much overtime?<<<
OT is extremely limited as far as working one of your days off. OT is usually achieved by working an open job after your regular job has been completed. However, most jobs have some built in OT in which you can get 9, 10, or even 11 hours pay in a specific day (these are called "penalty jobs"). You'll work harder, but you'll be guaranteed more $$$ since you'll have a longer work day. Anything after 8 hours is paid at time & a half.
>>>Question #9: Heard the city has a good package. Can anyone fill me in on vacation, sick and personal days, retirement?<<<
Vacation: 2 weeks in first 2 years of employment, 4 weeks from 3-15 years, 5 weeks with 15+ years. Vacation days can not be carried over into the following year.
Sick: 12 days a year, unused sick days are carried over into the following year.
Personal days (AVA's): On every public holiday, you may either receive 8 hours extra pay on top of your regular pay (total 16 hours pay), or you may bank an AVA in lieu of the 8 hours extra pay (8 hours pay + AVA). You also have an option of trading one week's vacation (5 days) for 5 AVA's at the beginning of the year. On Jan. 1st, you also receive one personal day automatically.
>>>Question #10: How are the working conditions, in general?<<<
The TA leaves you alone which is great, unless you mess up and then they really smack you. Also when some administrative problems arise such as a short check, etc., it can be a pain in the neck but you'll get used to it.
Good luck.
General note to everyone: If there are any more queries about working for the TA, please send them to the link at the bottom of this answer.
Your phone calls fall on deaf ears, because everyone in your shoes is trying the same thing, and the people you are asking don't know the answers.
#1 How long they usually take to put people to work?
It depends. It was 4 years between the time I took the CR test and the time I was hired (I was #800). It was 4 months between the time of the TO test and when I got the promotion (I was #46).
#2 Excluding the one week training class, how long do they generally allow for learning the job itself? Is the time allowed sufficient?
There is NO 1 week training class. Where does everyone get this peculiar idea from? If you go into the A division, your training will be 3 1/2 months. If you go into the B Division, it will be 5 1/2 months. If you can soak up everything they tell you and have areasonable hand-eye co-ordination level, yes it is sufficient. More time would be better, but that's not an option.
#3: Are new motorman placed on an extra list?
Yes, and you should expect to be there for at least 2 years.
#5: Is there a bidding system for positions?
Yes. About every 6 months, all jobs go up for a new pick. The pick is carried out in seniority order. Yard and switching jobs tend to go first, followed by penalty (pay over 8 hours) jobs.
#6: Do regular positions frequently come up, and does a new man have much chance of getting one?
Shortly after the pick starts any open jobs will come up for bid. If you bid on one and no one ahead of you does, you get it. Chances vary - I bid on one and lost to someone a thousand slots ahead of me; my classmate bid on another one and got it.
#7: What other positions would I have access to from a motorman's job, either through bidding, or whatever system there is? Any promotion possibilities?
From Train Operator, you can promote to Train Dispatcher, Train Service Supervisor and Yard Dispatcher. From those titles you may be picked to go into Management.
#10: How are the working conditions, in general?
Ain't no one gonna answer this one. Ask anybody who works there and they will give you a different answer from anyone else. It's job. In the winter, you're cold; in the summer, you're hot. They give you a rule book, play by the rules and they usually can't do anything to you.
For your other questions, please go here.
I think the one week thing is the week you get paid the $5.50 an hour. I think that is why everyone believes there is a standard week training followed by the different times for each Division.
Went by my local hobby shop last week and picked up the "Premiere Issue" of Railroad Explorer. Nice collection of winter photos, BUT
- Their policy is NO news will be included.
- Photos aren't going to be all new.
Wonder how long they'll last featuring "Trains of Northeastern North America".
Rapid Transit included ... someone putting a canoe on a RDC; GG1s in AmTrak colors; F-40 in a Vt snow scene. Since I'm a Swamp Yankee I liked the photos.
Mr t__:^)
For some time now I've been interested in finding a book on the Electrics used by the NYNH&H from NYC to NH.
At my local hobby shop I found NH Div, Murry Hill to Cedar Hill by A. Sherry, 1988. Includes: lots of shots of EFs & EPs (box cabs & covered wagons) ... some of the early Alco, F-M & GE diesels ... the MUs before the Cosmapolitian.
AND all three of the "Light Weights", i.e.
- John Quincy Adams by F-M
- Roger Williams (Hot Rod RDC) by Budd (BTW, Danbury has one of them)
- Daniel Webster by B-L-H
Question 1: What is the real name for the Pullman Std "Washboards" ?
Question 2: What is the real name of the Osgood-Bradleys that preceded them ?
Mr t__:^)
Real name of the "Washboard" cars? m.u. cars
Real name of the Osgood-Bradley cars? Really old m.u. cars
I think they were also called "MUT's" by the NH railroad crewpeople (Multiple Unit Trains).
Actually, in those days, rail equipment didn't need to be named. All of it was specifically built for each road, and people used the trains whether they had a fancy name such as "Cosmopolitan" or not. The naming trend seemed to take place int he late 1960's when ridership was waning a bit.
I believe the name "Washboards" was originally railfan oriented, and was used to describe the corrugated sides of the 1954 fleet of NH m.u. cars.
Here's a couple more books you might find NYNH&H electric operations information from:
"When The Steam Railroads Electrified" by William Middleton
"New Haven Power" by Al Stauffer
"New Haven Railroad: The Final Decade" by Scott Hartley
"Classic Power No. 9: New Haven EP-5 Jets" by Joe Cunningham
Sorry to say, all of the above are out of print and have been so for years. I would suggest, however, that you check out train shows as sometimes people have copies of these books for sale. You may also check libraries in the NYC area, perhaps they have copies.
Thanks for the input, I've made a note of it.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
All of the NH electric cars, including the "washboards" were referred to as MUT's (multiple unit trains).
Pullman Standard took over the Osgood Bradley company in the early 1940's. OB had taken over the Wason Co many years earlier. I believe that the Pullman Standard division that built the "washboards" was the location of the old Osgood Bradley. Standard Steel Car Co also built MUT's for NH in the old days.
I think that the book New Haven Power mentioned by Steve, was actually written by J. W. Swanberg. and published by Staufer. I'm not real sure that it is out of print, because I saw Staufer selling it at the last York meet. It is a terrific book (big at 600 pages), but an expensive one as well, somewhere around $80.00.
Pullman-Standard took over Osgood Bradley before 1940, as Baltimore Transit was buying PCC cars from Pullman in 1939, so it had to be before that date. The OB plant was in Worcester, and the Boston MTA bought all their PCCs save one from Pullman. Kept the money in Mass.
Karl & Dan ... many thanks for the additional input.
So the NH didn't assign a number to the MUTs like MU-6 as they did to the EF & EPs ?
I feel bad that the only NH equipment I became familiar with when I was growing up was the diesels in freight operations. Of course I lived in the middle of the state (next to a big SWAMP) far away from the electric operation. I used to regularly see a few cars rumbling up the Connecticut river or across the overpass in East Hampton. Both lines no longer see service, although Valley RxR runs steam as far north as East Haddam and P&W comes a little south of Middletown.
Mr t__:^)
I had an uncle who lived in New Haven and worked for the New Haven in train service many years ago. I have his keys and pocket watch.
I have a neighbor here who is the ultimate New Haven modeler in HO. He is formerly from Providence RI, and has all but recreated the NH in a full basement train layout. I believe that he also worked for the NH. He seems to know everything there is to know about the NH, and even builds HO operating models of their old steam engines. I had never met anyone before who could build operating models!
Karl, I enjoyed your reminising ... do your friends know of the
New Haven RxR Hist & Tech Assoc ?
They publish a newsletter that comes out a few times a year. One or two very nice color photos & lots of steam & text on what used to be, e.g. Putman CT used to be a major hub.
Mr t__:^)
Pity you missed seeing the neat assortment of traction the New Haven had. I used to photograph between Woodlawn and Wakefield...not to mention the Central"s collection. The New Haven had a dandy assortment of electrics until mid 1960 or so..Boxcab EP-3, streamline EP-4, the diesel-looking EP-5; coaches of 3 eras in each train, then the Washboard and the steel MU's and among the steels I believe one train of Clerestory roof MU's a day came thru.
Traction watching was grand back then... each line with the varied equipment. Only the IND and the DL&W had basically one type of car, almost the same for Pennsy unless you watched freights too.
He is a retired widower and is not on the internet.
I would think that he would belong, but I'll tell him about it anyway to be sure.
He literally lives and breathes New York, New Haven & Hartford. He is about the New Haven the way we are about New York City Transit! His basement railroad is equipped for the New Haven circa 1950.
One of my ambitions is to model the New Haven mainline, complete with four mainline tracks, with a NYC subway flavor to it. I'm heavily into NH rolling stock myself, whatever AC Gilbert churned out in American Flyer. I've got a bunch of the Little Joe NH electrics they made; several sets of orange-striped passenger cars; and several each of dual AA NH and single Alco A NH diesel engines. Not to mention the NH Pacific steamers they made along with the NH Pullmans.
And here I thought all along you we a IND type of guy. We now have another thing in common, as there is still a s[ecial place in my hart for the good old NH ... that's what makes Branford even more special for me ... have to go by NH to get there, it near my mom's place & they have this neat group of old subway cars that OPERATE ... next best thing to Heaven or what ?
Mr t__:^)
Oh, I'm still an IND man at heart. I lived in Connecticut for 7 years, 4 1/2 in Cheshire, which isn't all that far from New Haven. Plus I like the looks of Gilbert's NH diesel paint scheme. If I ever do build my dream layout, I still have to decide whether to go with catenary or not. One of my NH electrics is rigged to draw current through its pantographs, but because of the way I did it, a short train would have to be the rule. Otherwise, the current draw could melt the plastic.
A-N-D with you interest in Branford, you'll have to include some of those Connecticut Company yellow cars ! 775 would go nicely on your layout ... intercity (she did NH to West Haven before being currently assigned to East Haven to Branford), big car, she zips along nicely & has a great horn (we toot toot a lot). She would love to interchange with your MUs.
You must come a see what they did to the Quonset Hut ... all yellow now. They must have more then half a dozen Conn Co cars completely restored now. They are trying to turn the place into a "museum" ... they'll still let us play, but guest will do more walking around & less riding. The 3/4 Ton Crew was part of the show last year ... "see those guys over there, they're resoting a R-17, that's a subway car from New York City, mfg. in 1955, came to the museum in 1987 ... yada yada yada)
Mr t__:^)
Steve, Lionel committed a "mortal sin" with the Little Joe nomenclature on that engine. Since they had a version of it painted Milwaukee they called it a Little Joe. The real Little Joe had a vaguely similar double ended carbody [Milwaukee loco] but would have looked more like a New Haven EP4. BTW the South Shore had some Joes, since you were a South Bend man once. Unfortunately the Joe was for Josef Stalin as they were originally uilt for Russia but a US gov't embargo stopped the shipment.
Lionel sure misled alot of younger model rails. The real nickname for those engines was "jets", officially they were EP-5.
For a model New Haven don't miss having a couple of els to cross over it. Pelham and what hadbeen 3rd ave. anyway. Then you need model Low-V's, SMEE's etc. I wish I hadn't given away my New Haven EP-2, EP-3, and EP-4 drawings...that would have been a loco to scratch build in "S". I had them 38 years and never used them.
Ah yes the EP-5 Jets are a classic, like the C-Liners, FA/PAs or the Centipede. I also like the RS-2 & have one in NH colors. Of course a FL9 would be a must ! Saw a Centipede in "O" at a Westchester open house last Spring ... impressive.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, the South Shore had three Little Joes. They had to rewire them for 1500-volt DC operation, plus the m. u. components were removed. One of them is at IRM in Union, IL; I saw and photographed it during my 1996 visit.
The Soviets ordered 20 GE locos in the late 40s, then the government banned the shipment after the Berlin blockade, IIRC. GE built the locos anyway to the Russian specs (3300 VAC) and sold them at bargain basement prices. Milwaukee-St. Joe bought 12 of them; NH bought 5, and the South Shore got the other three.
Right now that NH layout is a pipe dream due to space constraints. Someday, hopefully. I also thought about giving it an IND flavor, but realized there wouldn't be enough room for one flying junction, let alone three.
If NH bought some did they ever run them? For the life of me I can't remember seeing any in real life or in photos. There was I believe an Ef3a which was the freight version of the EP4. If I've missed this piece of rail history please advise!
Yes the EF-3a & EP-4 are both covered wagons (freight vs. passenger) ... very high hood vs. the Jets, i.e. EP-5s. They were also doubled enders like the Jets.
Mr t__:^)
True. Now that my mental computer has clicked a day later IIRC the remaining Joes went to Brazil..Sao Paulista RR or something like that?So that leaves the EP4 and EF3a the only covered wagon, many wheels artic's on the NH that I can think of. Of course my favorites were the EP3 boxcab and had I seen them I'd have liked he EP2 boxcabs.Back to Milwaukee thet kindly obliged with the long departed Westinghouses, western EP2/3 lookalikes.
I also have the Lionel-reissued NH Electric in S gauge; didn't go for the Milwaukee-St. Joe. I'm still waiting for them to issue it in South Shore livery; I'd grab one in a heartbeat. Or two. Or three.
Sao Paulista RR or something like that?
Another CP. A previous post in the thread pointed out this Companhia Paulista electric locomotive photo page.
The South Shore bought the first three and Milwaukee bought twelve, but I don't believe New Haven had any. Not sure what happened to the other five.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I stand corrected. The NH must have had something closely resembling a Little Joe, then.
Yes, put that way, you're right. I would say that the EP-4's and EF-3's did "resemble" the Little Joes in certain aspects. However, the Little Joes had platforms at the ends, whereas the EP-4 and EF-3 series did not. The shape of the carbody and general configuration could lead one to think there was some family resemblance.
corrections
1. original order for 50 units
2. 5 of the 20 built before Truman cancelled the deal were sold to Fe Pa Sa the Sao Paulo State railways (Brazil)
comment They were truly awesome.
OK, so that explains the following page of photographs that I stumbled on while searching for information earlier tonight. The page linked from the picture of the unit being unloaded mentions "Little Joe" (that's the one that originally showed in my search) but I assumed that it was something to do with a museum.
Companhia Paulista de Estradas de Ferro Electric Locomotives
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fantastic find! After Interurban, Subways and RDCs, Electric locs are dear to my heart. Thanks for sharing.
avid
The NH had box cabs like these, EF-2, EP-2 & EP-3a from Baldwin-Westinghouse.
Mr t__:^)
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the EP-3's were GE's?? For those who may not know they were the test bed for the Pennsy's GG-1 incidentally.
In Allen Sherry's book he says the EF-3a were GE, EF-3b were B-W and EP-3a was B-W. The EP-4 & 5 were GE.
Mr t__:^)
Hm, I never knew the Soviets originally ordered 50 of them. My only source was from South Shore: The Last Interurban. It mentions those suckers were the most powerful electric locos ever built at the time.
Speaking of NH Electrics, I just received my Lionel NH and Reading MUs. I haven't openned the box yet. I'm waiting, letting the anticipation build. I'm want the adrenalan pumping. I what those butterfly in my stomach. To enhance the high, I cruised this sites Metronorth and CDOT segements.
There are a lot of very good photos of "washboards, and other MUs" Nice food for tought for future Lionel, MTH or kitbashed items.
Thanks to David and all the other fans for the great photo shots of history.
avid
The New York Westchester and Boston had a nice car style that would make for a nice Proto type for "O" gaugers and other gaugers too.
Or maybe K-Line or Lionel will just issue what they currenty put out for interubbans with a new paint job and Road name?
avid
You could double up and use that NYWB MU coach for an Erie loco-hauled commuter car as well. Give the manufacturers the idea? I think NYWB had a center door? Maybe not but the bodies were about the same.
Yes, I noticed it in some photos on this site. The Lionels have small rain gutters above the doors on the roof. here's the kicker, there is one in the center of the car, but NO DOOR! The arched windows on the side would look terrific. To bad the photos didn' show color.
Anyone know what color they were? Where did they fially end up after the company folded. NH maybe?
avid
According to a couple books on the NYW&B, their car fleet was taken over by the New Haven, given a quick rehab (i.e. remove the center door and electrical equipment) and used in commuter service behind locomotives in the Boston area.
Color scheme? I was always under the impression that they were a dark drab green (like many railroads' equipment in those days) with gold lettering.
Belated thanks for the information.
avid
Huh???? That's the first I EVER heard of the New Haven getting any of the "Little Joe" electrics.
The Paulista Railway in Brazil got some. Now where did THOSE come from? Maybe those were the ones mixed up to be NH??
You're in S gauge, aren't you?
Yep, I sure am.
Weren't the Pullman PCC's built at some other Pullman location (i.e. Chicago)???? Not all Pullman stuff was built in Worcester, Massachusetts.
The NYCTA had some R-1/9 types -- I forget which ones, specifically, that were Pullman products. There were built in the mid-1930's. Didn't they come out of the Chicago plants, too?
Nope, all Pullman's PCC production was done at the Worcester plant. (Ex-Osgood Bradley) As a gag, we had a builder's made plate for BTC PCC 7407 that proclaims "Built by the Osgood Bradley Car Company, Worcester, Massachusetts U.S.A"
7407's real plate says "Pullman-Standard Car Manufacturing Company", of course.
Thanks for the update on the info -- wasn't sure where they did the PCC's.
Thanks for the correction on the NH Power book....I did a quick check of the bookshelves and wasn't too careful there.
Yes, it was in print last year, a new printing. I bought mine about 11 years ago and paid $65.00 for it, so the $80.00 price isn't too bad. It is worth every penny of it.
Mention of the "Washboards" in the above posts jarred my memory a bit. Can anyone tell me why the "Washboards" had so short a career?
Those cars were built in 1954 and to the best of my knowledge - were all retired by the early to mid 1970's.
I realize that the M2 "Cosmopolitans" were ordered as the replacements for all electric powered MU equipment on the New Haven, but I don't understand why those "Washboards" needed to be replaced after at most - 20 years of service. Was there a quality problem? Too many breakdowns? Perhaps the Washboards were slower than the M2s?
Think of it - nearly every railroad has gotten more than 20 years out of their MUs - some have gotten more than twice that. So why so short a time with the Washboards??
Any answers you can provide will be appreciated.
I think one of the reasons was that the cars were neglected for many years and would have needed oe helluva lot of maintenance $$$ sunk into them to catch up. (I know one thing for sure, their suspension was literally SHOT, and it was quite a task to walk the aisles of these cars when under way.)
Not sure, but can anyone verify if they had PCB's in any of the components? That may have played a big part too.
[I think one of the reasons was that the cars were neglected for many years and would have needed oe helluva lot of maintenance $$$ sunk into them to catch up.]
I kinda thought that was the reason, but didn't say because I wasn't sure. They have a couple of them in MOW at NH ... any more saved anywhere ? Was surprised to see a LIRR "MP" MU up at Seashore.
Mr t__:^)
I recently moved from Queens to Cedarhurst, LI and now take the Rockaway line of the LIRR to the city daily. I now realize firsthand how inconvenient this line has become to south shore residents since the closing of the Forest Hills-Ozone Park corridor line in 1962. Even though I need to go west from Cedarhurst to NYC, the line takes me east first, through a loop going through Woodmere, Hewlett, Gibson, Valley Stream, Locust Manor, et al. It really bugs me to think that a usable, though neglected, line exists connecting Far Rockaway with the main line w/o having to visit points east. Could've cut my trip by 30 minutes. Ugh.
You can do something about that. Get involved with your state govt to get a decent Capital Plan passed. Make sure the East Side Access project survives so two additional LIRR tracks carry trains via 63rd St into Manhattan by 2008. With the additional tunnel capacity coming, you can make a reasonable case for revival of this line, because the Manhattan-bound total capacity after 2008 will support it. Then be prepared to help craft a plan to address objections or challenges posed by property owners along (or in) the former ROW, local political demands, NIMBYs, and the need to place some start-up funds for this project in one of the upcoming Capital Plans (2005-2009, or 2009-2014).
Not an easy process. But not impossible to accomplish.
I've walked the ROW. Somebody "put up a parking lot" in a couple of places along the line. Otherwise, the biggest obstacles in the ROW are the trees growing between the rails. Oh, and that metal spider.
And the fact that the bridge over the lower Montauk is, well, not there. The tunnel under the LIRR main has also been sealed at the north end.
Minor difficulties. Those school buses and the parking for that apt. house will be the real toughies.
Is the staircase that goes to the Crescent Apts one of Brooklyn Manor station? It looks similar to the Forest Hills staircases before they rehabbed them, and it approaches the embankment at an angle appropriate for a station, but highly inconvenient for people headed for their cars.
>>>Oh, and that metal spider. <<<
What's the deal with that thing? Is it grafitti or what?
Peace,
ANDEE
Nope. Its a real, steel spider. See the Rock line fan trip photos at OLDNYC.com for a further discussion about that spider.
Too bad they tore up (three times!) the Cedarhurst Cutoff . That would have saved you about 7 miles of travelling distance.
I've read about that line. Wasn't that the line that was built and torn up three times without ever having gone into service?
As it is, service via the loop route is slow and worse, unnecessarily cumbersome given the fact that faster alternatives were planned and existed.
Oh well...more time to sleep, I guess.
Sounds almost like the Oyster Bay Line complaints. But they usually blame that lines troubles on it being diesel. But the Far Rockaway, West Hempstead, and Long Beach Branches are electric.
Considering the whole trip from Cedarhurst to Penn is about 50 minutes, cutting 30 minutes would be quite a trick.
And while it's true you head somewhat east before turning west at Valley Stream, the route then runs more or less straight west to Penn. If you took the old route via Hammels and Ozone Park you'd be heading southwest a good distance before turning northwest to get to White Pot and Penn.
You can figure out about how long it would take from these 2 schedules (from Bob Andersen's lirrhistory.com):
Rockaway Park segment
Hamilton Beach segment
Ad for Rockaway line service showing travel time.
About 10 years ago, many commuters from North Woodmere and other parts of the 5 towns west of Peninsula Blvd. would drive to Rosedale -- which cut both their commuting time and their ticket cost. I've noticed now, that most of the parking lots at Rosedale are empty and grown over. What happened there to change that commuting pattern? Did the city start to charge for parking?
Plan 4 was in effect all weekend, only the Franklin Ave shuttle stopped running during the snow storm I beleive. I got to watch trains run up and down the Brighton Sunday morning while waiting for my 20 minute headway D train (the non revenue moves were coming faster then the revenue moves, pissed a lot of people off).
Chopping away on the paltform with 6 cleaners. 4 of which were on the platform, two had shovels one an ice pick and one throwing salt (or whatever) down. One with a mop inside fare control making the dry tiles wet and slippery, pushing the muck all over the place. And the SUPERVISOR on the opposite platform from the 4 workers standing around. Should give him a tape measure to measure the piles of snow or something like that.
6am Sunday Morning Kings Hwy, Brighton.
I guess MOnday didn't count as the weekend, as I saw regular 6th ave express (B and D) running on the express track. Same for Queens Blvd with E and F express in both directions.
There was no Express service on the Brighton Monday. They trains on A2 and A4 were out of service, removing built up snow and ice.
I guess maybe only above ground express tracks were closed.
The only line that went local instead of express was the A. At Hoyt, when the T/O of my train saw the signal this conversation took place:
T/O: Express on the local?
Tower: No.
T/O: Worth a shot.
[We start to leave, tower operator comes out and walks down the abandoned platform]
Tower operator (laughing): Express on the local?! Express on the local?!
[they converse while train is crawling out of station at 3 MPH.]
At Euclid they held us while the tower operator there brought out some food to be delivered to Lefferts Tower.
Did anyone post this, seems there is Uptown Broadway express service from now until March (hehe).
Uptown Trains will skip Prince, 8th, 23rd and 28th Streets from 12:01am Tuesday Jan. 2nd to Midnight Sunday March 18th.
Then from late March to early June DOWNTOWN trains will run express.
All for station reconstruction.
Now I wonder if the construction companies will get bonus' for early work done. I don't see the Manhattan Bridge flip flop happening with local tracks out of service on Broadway and with only a month leeway to get the job done... Who Knows, maybe we won't get the flip flop in the summer.
As of this morning, they were still stopping at 23rd St.
According to a short article in today's Post the purpose is to have the stations ready for the increased traffic after the flip.
I rode down Broadway tonight to check out the construction; here's what's going on:
28 & 23 Sts: all the "new" tile is gone, exposing the original BMT tile. At the south end of both platforms (the extension, I assume), the entire wall is gone. At 28 St, it looks like some new white tile has already been put up at the north end of the platform.
8 St: All the "new" tile is gone, except at the extension. Interesting to note that the station plaques alternate "8th Street" and "NEW YORK UNIVERSITY." Also, the directional signs to the Waverly Place exit say "TO ASTOR PL." The tile here is in remarkably good condition. Scaffolding was set up on the tracks, with workers doing something on the ceiling.
Prince St: the north half of the station hasn't been touched yet; the "new" tile on the south half is gone. The BMT tile here is pretty beaten here.
At each station, there's a small bulldozer parked on the platform. All fare arrays are gone, and the old bathrooms (storerooms?) are being ripped out. Hopefully there will be something left for me take some pictures tomorrow; someone else took the @#$& digital camera from work tonight.
I let five R-46s and 68s go by before finally getting a 32 for the ride back uptown, and the railfan window was taken! It was a man with two young children, a girl and a boy, no older than four, who are obviously budding railfans. The girl was even explaining the GO to the boy :). "We're skipping a lot of stations because of construction." Another observation: on two Hippos and a Slant, at least one side route sign was set to an upside-down <W>, and on one Hippo, I'm sure I saw a <N>! Does that even exist?
There was an which ran from Astoria to Whitehall back in the day of N via bridge. It was the Broadway local. The sign above the Cortland st station entrance at the WTC mall still shows this.
As for all the ;lt;M> signs, on the inside it will appear normal. That's because the N shown on the inside is actually the one meant for the outside, but they look almost identical so the sign changer didn't notice.
The 68's use older signs that had for the Whitehall special service, and this is what has been replaced by the on the rest of the signs. (some of the original R-68 signs have been replcaed with the newer ones)
The latest rumor is that President-elect Bush will today name former California congressman and current Commerce Secretary Norman Minetta to be Transporation Secretary. Minetta is a Democrat from San Jose. While a congressman, he was chairman of the House Transporation and Public Works Committee.
About the only topic-relevant quote I could quickly find from Minetta comes from a 1994 report titled "Towards A National Intermodal Transportation System" --
"There has never been a coherent, coordinated, and comprehensive national transportation policy that includes highways, transit, rail, airports and seaports as parts of a greater whole. And it is our greatest challenge here in the 1990's to start thinking and planning in terms of that greater whole."
At first blush, seems to be transit-friendly -- most certainly for those wanting subways to airports and the like. Perhaps our resident Californians can give us a little more background on Mr. Mineta.
CG
Mineta has been nominated for Transportation Minister.
http://europe.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/02/bush.transition/index.html.
I don't know anything about his stances though.
This is a quote from MSNBC News:
"Mineta is best known for his high-tech views on transportation, favoring research into 'maglev' trains that use magnets to float above rails, and intelligent transport systems like road sensors, collision avoidance technology and electronic toll booths. He also has shown interest in electric cars and other alternative vehicles."
http://www.msnbc.com/msn/491164.asp
He's a Democrat and willing to think outside the chauffered limousine and chartered jet box. We could do worse.
("Mineta is best known for his high-tech views on transportation, favoring research into 'maglev' trains that use magnets to float above rails, and intelligent transport systems like road sensors, collision
avoidance technology and electronic toll booths. He also has shown interest in electric cars and other alternative vehicles.")
Didn't see the word "subway" in there. At least he is unlikely to favor Trent Lott's proposal to take all the transit funding away from New York and California. It will have to be taken away from New York alone.
I was at W4 and a cop was on the pay phone of the 8th St entrance, I would assume homeless women,but I am not descriminating against said to the cop "Excuse me officer, I'm $.20 cents short" the cop then says, "OK, go through the gate," so the S/A opens the gate and she goes into the subway for free, and still gets to keep the $1.30! So your telling me that a cop says to let someone in, you just let them in? Why must I spend $1.50 while she gets on for free with no chance of Fare Evasion?
Mike
"Mr. Mass Transit" As a few have called me
OHH give me a break. Have you ever been stranded and asked to be allowed into the system? Or your Metrocard transfer expire and the bus driver lets you on.
If he was allowing every other person into the system, then I would have a problem. I don't even think the S/A could accept the $1.30 into the count sheet anyway. Guess that S/A was over $1.30 for the day.
Good point. The day of the big storm I asked a bus driver if I could go just five blocks and get off due to the snow conditions on the streets and sidewalks.
He let me on and he didn't ask for the fare as he knew people were having difficulties getting around.
BMTman
This is turning into a pattern, you and fare evasion you know!!
The Station Agent must either collect the $1.50 and issue a token/metrocard or accept no money at all. If the clerk were to take the $1.30, the clerk would be placing his/her job in serious jeopardy as the clerk isn't issuing a token/metrocard in return. If caught, the clerk would be facing immediate dismissal.
ONLY a police officer has the authority to let a person on for free. And if the officer took the $1.30 as well, he'd be fired too. That's why she rode for free, the $1.30 would open a pandora's box.
Zman is correct! If a police officer tells us to let a person enter without paying the fare we must obey the police officer.
While we must obey the rules, if a police officer tells us to allow entry the rules require us to obey the police.
If a customer comes to our window and asks to buy a token and does not have enough money we cannot sell them a token-- Why? we'd be short and have to pay for the difference out of our own pocket.
We tell the customer " I am sorry but a token is $1.50. Please find a police officer and come back."
The NYCTA website lists the following "facts" on station locations.
Underground stations: 277
Elevated stations: 153
Embankment stations: 29
Open Cut stations: 9
I wonder how they figure this? I count 9 open cut stations on the Sea Beach alone (if you count the rather odd 8th Ave and Ft. Hamilton Pkwy configurations). But you also have the following open cut stations on the Brighton Line: Botanic Garden, Prospect Park, Parkside, Church, Beverley, Cortelyou, Newkirk. That's another 7.
How do they count Metropolitan Avenue, E105 and Rockaway Pkwy? I would call them surface stations. What's 9th Avenue (West End/Culver)? An elevated station or open cut station over an abandoed subway station?
How would you figure these? Anybody have other counts?
I would count 9th Avenue as a surface station, like Metropolitan Avenue.
Botanic Garden (shuttle line) - I would consider this a subway line, even though its partially in open cut. Andersen-Jerome Avenue on the 9th Avenue el also had a subway/open-cut config and was considered an underground station.
About the other Brighton stations: have to agree with you - they should be open cut stations.
An old copy of "facts and figures" has 17 open cut stations, and only 20 embankment figures, roughly in line with what you reported. Someone must have erroneously classified the Upper Brighton as embankment rather than open cut.
I wonder what Dykman Street on the #1 is classified as?
I was wondering the same thing. It sounds to me like an open cut, but then again, none of the platform is under ground (in a tunnel). That's a good question!!
The Dyckman St. station on the No. 1 line is hard to classify. It is considered to be an aboveground station on an underground portion of the line. The tracks are actually outdoors at the Dyckman St. station even though theorically they're underground.
BMTJeff
Theoretically underground? Whose theory? To get to the station you start at street level and climb up stairs to the platform which is outside. The portal is about 50 - 75 feet south of the station. Next thing, someone will try to convince me that 125/Bway is below ground because it's downgrade from 116 and upgrade of 137, both of which are underground.
At the northern end of the station, it's elevated. At the southern end, it's surface level. At no point is it "underground".
Well, 125th & Broadway isn't considered an Elevated station because the structure it is on is not considered an El!
How's that ;-)
--Mark
Then, pray tell, what is it?
A - Subway
B - Open Cut
C - Embankment
D - Surface
E - Elevated
F - Viaduct
As Ed McMahon said to Johnny Carson, "you are correct, sir!"
--Mark
Why a duck?
Because the Sanity Claus says so
Peace,
ANDEE
But there is no Sanity Claus.
Ummm ... can somebody pass me a baggie of whatever they're smoking?
No smoke here, TMO! The stretch of the IRT Broadway Line ovr Manhattan Valley is considered a viaduct, not a bona-fide El.
--Mark
What is mean by an "embankment" station?
:-) Andrew
The right-of-way on the Brighton line, past Newkirk Avenue. and before Sheepshead Bay is built on a 15-20 foot embankment; i.e., a big hill of dirt. Every few blocks, a cross street slices through the right-of way, and the tracks bridge this gap using a steel viaduct. the stations along this section of the line are "embankment" stations.
Thank you, Moving Platform.
:-) Andrew
This may be nitpicking, but I've noticed that the R44 and R46 cars used on the "A" line release much more air from the air brakes (the "hissing" noise) before moving out of a station than the same cars used on other lines.
Is this accurate, and if so, is this because of different brake maintenance methods used in the 207th Street shops, or perhaps different methods of brake system overhaul during rebuilding, or what?
Only R44's are used on the A line. The difference between lines that you are noticing is a difference in equipment. The A runs R44's while the other lines run R46's. At least this is what I know from reading the posts here.
Shawn.
That is the case. The only way I know of to tell the cars apart (other than unit numbers) is there are 3 seats on the R44 between the back of the cab and the first door and only 2 on the R46.
The R44's also have a dull gray stripe on their waist line. Do the R46's have this also? I cannot remember right now.
Shawn.
The grey stripe is on the R-44 because that area is made out of steel, as opposed to stainless steel. (Look for the bubbles where the rust is seeping through.)On the R-46, the same area is made of stainless steel.
I saw a R44 at 34th Street New Years Eve that appeared to have big grey sticker over that area. I could tell it was a sticker because at overhung the end at little and had bubbles in it near the end. It's hard to describe perfectly since I just noticed it quickly as it was pulling out.
Shawn.
In addition to the R46's not having the dull gray strip, IIRC. I found two other differences at the A ends based on two picutres I found on this site. I don't know if it's accurate for all the R44/46's but it's worth mentioning. I have circled (lightly in yellow) the two differences I found in the first picture which is a R44.
Please note that I modified the size of the images without any regard to keeping them in scale. They will appear side by side depending on your screen resolution. I'm using 1280x1024 :)
The other noticeable difference is that the R-44s have swinging cab doors, the R-46 has sliding. Also, the R-44 still has the glass pane and black frame in the doorway partitions.
They grey stripe isn't completely accurate because the SIR had that section replaced with stainless steel. The SIRs also have quieter braking systems.
There are way more differences, check the archives, I've posted them all about 10 times over in my time here at SubTalk.
The R-44s were given a brake system overhaul before the GOH.
They were originally delivered with P-wire, which was very
unreliable. The R46 had P-wire also, but it was slightly more
reliable on that car class and the P-wire was retained until GOH.
The particular implementation of Westcode braking system used
on R44 cars is unique in NYCT. The noises that a car makes
when releasing aren't a very good indicator of how much air is
actually being exhausted. The noise is determined by the shape
of the exhaust hole, the presence or absence of a muffler on it,
and its proximity to other objects. In fact, and this is what
I thought you meant by your subject line, the R44 is unique in
that it carries full main reservoir pressure in the Brake Pipe,
not limited down to 110 by a feed valve as in every other car.
I don't know why this was done. It doesn't have any effect on
normal, service braking, just emergency dumps.
If I recall correctly, the p-wire would have been the automatic train control originally intended for the Second Av subway, to replace fixed-block signalling.
No, P-wire and ATC are two independent concepts, although the R46
was delivered with all of that as a package.
P-wire was an attempt to replace the pneumatic signal of the
trainline straight air pipe with a signal conveyed by the
amount of electrical current flowing in a closed trainline
circuit. It was a purely analog system (unlike the R142
cars which use digital signaling to convey brake request).
P-wire is still successfully used by LIRR and MNcRR, but
transit had terrible problems with the failure of that trainline
P-wire circuit. Any break in the circuit, i.e. 0 current flow,
was the same as a full-service brake application, so "loss of P-wire"
and the consequent struck brakes were a common failure on
the R44 and R46 fleet.
On the R44, a contract was let with WABCO to replace the brakes
with the Westcode system, using a single rotary (aka "Cineston")
combined power/brake handle. It was poorly design from a crew
comfort standpoint. This was about 1990 IIRC. The R46 fleet
was patched with a series of P-wire improvements that Train Dude
can tell you more about, but when GOH time came around in the mid-90s,
car equipment decided to chuck P-wire and use a New York Air Brake
equivalent of the Westcode system.
The differences you hear is the difference in brake equipment used on the cars and not likely related to the relative volume of air released. R-46s use NYAB brake equipment while the R-44 use Westcode brake system (the only cars to use it). Both the R-46 and R-44 use tread brake units as the final braking device (as opposed to clasp brakes) and the TBUs work under very similar pressures and air volumes. The actual difference is the J relays and R magnets on each type of car and the relative size of the exhaust ports.
"J" Relays Is that like a "J1" Relay Valve, used to interface the Brake valve with the control valve?
We refer to them genericly as the J relay. In fact the R-46 uses a J1.4-14 relay valve. I'm not sure what the exact designation of the R-44 equivalent is. Basically, it is the interface between the brake manifold and the final braking device.
Could one of you diagram (verbally) the braking system in a subway train? I understand that there are two systems: the air pressure-maintained emergency brake which deploys when air is released by the stopcock when a tripper arm hits it; and the regular air brake, which is used after dynamic braking brings the train down to <10 mph.
If I have it right so far, could one of you outline the braking systems and explain the basic relationships of the valves, manifolds etc. It would help me and others understand more about these topics and to better follow your posts.
Thank you.
There may already be a web page somewhere explaining this in
great detail. There is a lot of detail to explain, in fact,
as even the simplified air brake instruction books are dozens
of pages long.
Basically, the "SMEE" (and successor) air brake systems use
two train-line air pipes: Brake Pipe (BP) and Straight Air
Pipe (SAP). SAP is a signal proportional to braking effort
request, ranging from 0 psi (release) to about 85 psi (depending
on vintage) representing maximum service brake. The SAP
pressure is fed by the motorman's brake valve, which is
self-lapping. The self-lapper has a pair of auxilliary contacts
which energize the Apply and Release electrical train line
circuits, causing the A and/or R magnet valves in each car to
follow the action of the self-lapper and more quickly equalize
the trainline SAP pressure to the motorman's request.
The SAP signal is received by two systems: dynamic and pneumatic.
A transducer converts SAP pressure into a proportional voltage
which is used to control dynamic braking effort. At the same
time, the J relay valve on each car effectively "computes" the
brake cylinder pressure by multiplying the SAP pressure, the
loaded weight factor of the car, and a constant factor which depends
on the type of brake actuator (there being two principal types:
simplex and duplex). This multiplication is performed by
pnemumatic/mechanical means. This is the derivation of the
term "relay" valve. Earlier SMEE cars (pre-R-26) used a "B"
model relay valve.
So long as dynamic braking is effective current flows through
a lockout magnet valve, i.e. a solenoid-operated valve.
When energized, the lockout MV vents the brake cylinder line
and holds off the pressure from the relay valve. When the
dynamics fade, the lockout valve de-energizes and the correct
air pressure flows into the cylinders, applying the tread brakes.
I'm deliberately excluding discussion of the "inshot" valve here.
BP is an emergency feature. It is initially filled to 110 psi
by the motorman's brake valve. The _rapid_ loss of BP air,
such as would be caused by a train coming apart, a broken hose,
a pulled cord, or a signal trip, causes the emergency valves in
each car to activate. This immediately disables the motor controls,
and dynamic brakes too, and applies a higher level of cylinder
pressure. The amount of pressure varies based on load weight,
as with service braking, to avoid skidding. Different "algorithms"
have been used over the years to set service and emergency
brake pressures. I won't get into that now.
That's the basics of SMEE braking, but of course there are a lot
of minute details that I have glossed over.
As simply as I can state it:
The emergency brake is controlled by brakepipe air. Brakepipe air aside, braking is straight foward - almost. The train operator through the brake handle, regulates the straight air. Straight air is usually from zero (release) to roughly 80 PSI (full service). This, however, is not the air that stops the train. This is the controlling air. The straignt air runs trainline - the length of the train. To insure that this air responds promptly to changes in demand, Application and Release magnet valves - controlled electrically from the operating brake valve, add or release air from the straight air pipe simultaneously in each car.
Each car has a load sensor that constantly weighs the car. This device allows the same brake demand to be translated into a braking effort that is proportional to the weight of the car. Hence, a demand for a 50 Lb. brake will result in varying brake efforts in each car depending on the load.
Each car has a device that senses the brake effort demanded and sets the equivalent brake effort via dynamic brake. On GE for example, the device is called a DBRT or Dynamic Brake Rate Transducer. While a dynamic brake is being generated, the curent also holds closed a valve called the Lockout Magnet which keeps the car from having an air brake while in dynamic brake. When the dynamic brake fades, this valve opens and allows the air brake.
At this time, the brake demand is fed to the J relay Valve (or equivalent). This valve takes the straight air demand and using Main Reservoir air, supplies a proportional air pressure to the final brake device. For example a straight air setting of 80 PSI on an R-46 will result in a 60 PSI brake cylinder pressure in a lightly loaded train. At the same time, an equivalent brake demand on a similarly loaded R-32 might result in a 30 PSI brake cylinder pressure. The resulting brake effort should be the same.
So do the A trains release more air than the others?
If it wasn't clear from the previous detailed explanations, no they don't.
Shawn.
Thank you, Train Dude, for that well-written explanation. The elegance of the design is quite impressive.
Go here:
Brake diagram
That diagram is pretty but it's slightly dated. For one thing, we removed INSHOT over 10 years ago.
Heh. Well, I left the railroad nearly thirty years ago - so to me it looked pretty modern. I remember trying to explain Wsetinghouse to some rail buffs up here who thought you charged up a tank and valved it directly to the cylinders. A real eye-opener that diagram was for them.
Then came the inevitable question of why LED's were rare on trains for so many years and having to explain the philosophies behind life critical designs where LED's had not been "proven" enough to be acceptable to railcar manufacturers for many years.
Still, even if it's old, better than nothing. Anyone wanna try to diagram the Pwire fiasco? That'd be a hoot. :)
Okay, if my memory serves me correctly, some railroad locomotives use a valve called a J1.6-16, this valve has an output of 160% of control port pressure. Soooooo, a J1.4-14 has an output of 160% of control port pressure?
I think you mean 140%. I'd love to say yes but I'm not sure.
Yes, I did mean 140%
Okay, if my memory serves me correctly, some railroad locomotives use a valve called a J1.6-16, this valve has an output of 160% of control port pressure. Soooooo, a J1.4-14 has an output of 140% of control port pressure?
When will we start getting R143s? Will Bombardier be making any of them?
-Dan
They are currently in production in Kobe, Japan. I assume that the parts will be shipped to the US for assembly as soon as enough become available to warrant shipping. This contract was awarded to Kawasaki only. Bombardier got the deep end of the R142 order, Kawasaki got the smaller share plus the R143's.
Shawn.
ATTENTION SUBTALKERS:
The MTA will be holding a public hearing on the 63rd St Connector's proposed service plan. The detailed text can be found on www.straphangers.org. The short version:
a. G train cut back to Court St
b. F train to operate via 41 Av in Queens and 21rst St-Queensbridge, Roosevelt Island-63rd St tunnel.
c. V train to provide local service from 71 St via Queens Blvd and Broadway to Queens Plaza, then to Manhattan via 53rd St tunnel.
d. Free Metrocard transfer to be offered from G train to 7 train
Whatever your opinion might be, please come to this hearing. A possible free Metrocard transfer from the F at 63rd St-Lex to the 59 St-Lex station is being seriously considered, and you can help make it happen.
If you have alternative ideas, please come and speak.
The hearing on 63rd St Service is at:
Long Island City High School
14-30 Broadway, Long Island City, Queens
Closest subway stop: Broadway, N train.
Date and time: Tuesday, January 23, 2001, at 6PM
You can register to speak at the hearing until 7PM at the hearing itself, or send a letter requesting to register to:
Douglas Sussman
Deputy Director, Govt. and Community Relations
Metropolitan Transportation Authority
347 Madison Avenue
New York NY 10017
Telephone: (212) 878-7483
You can send your written response to the proposed plan to Mr. Sussman. Even if you do, you can still come to speak.
If you mail a letter after Jan 6, remember to use a 34 cent stamp!
If attending by transit, the Broadway N stop is a good 10-12 block walk. You can take the Queens Transit bus west on Broadway as well.
Triboro Coach's Q19A bus runs along 21st Street and stops at Broadway right down the block from LIC HS. The 19A begins at the Queens/Queensboro Plaza complex. Queens Surface's Q104 can be accessed from the Steinway Street station on the 'G' and 'R' or the 46th Street station on the '7'.
Experience has shown the Q19A to run much more frequently than the 104.
Thanks to all of you for taking the time to answer.
--nyhal
I just heard on the news that Bush picked a democrat for Sec. of TRANSPORTATION!!!!! WOO HOO. The party isn't going to end! Transit has a future and it ain't SUV lanes.
And if it did end, there's always the Moscow Metro...
Yeah that remains to be seen. The guy could turn out to be a "token" and just genuflect (sp?) to his "master" Dubya's wishes.
BMTman
Dubya's not a master of anything. If Cheney has one more heart attack, George might even become president.
You guys are just angry and bitter. Give GWB a chance. One thing is certain. There will be a good deal more decency and honor in the office than the past eight years. He is reaching out to groups who rejected him for reasons I do not know, If he screws up, he will be out in four years. If we does well, he will be re-elected. I will make you a wager. He will get a lot more than 9% of the African=American vote next time around, and more than the 38% of the Hispanic vote. And if he does, the Democrats are toast.
Had he won at least 50% of Florida, I might feel differently.
Or at least beaten Gore by at least .1%
When it believed that Bush would win the popular vote, yet lose the electoral vote, all you heard Democrats like Mario Cuomo and Jesse Jackson say what that was the intention of our founding fathers and it is the law, so tough. Well it turned out the other way, and we hear
all the libs, including those two nincompoops, berating the system as unfair. My my, how they've changed their tune. That's the law folks. Bush won by the law. I know some Democrats think the law is moot, especially since that disgraceful individual who has brought disgrace to that position and flaunted the law, proved laws are made to be broken. But this electoral college law stands and that is that. Get over it and get used to it. GWB is President. Live with it. I lived with Clinton for eight years. Now it's your turn.
We're just going to have to hope for the best even as we fear the worst.
Still, it would have made me happier if Bush won by getting more votes in Florida instead of by convincing the courts not to count them. But that's a topic for another board.
Just remember this. That slurry mouth liberal Tom Brokaw called Florida for Gore with only a few votes in, and that precluded over a quarter of a million people in the Republican rich panhandle not to go out and vote. If that hadn't happened Bush would have carried Florida with oodles of votes to spare. I don 't hear any Democrats bemoaning that. Still, the system down there does need cleaning up. No voter should be deprived of their rightful powers as citizens. Florida must bring all voting machines up to date in ALL the various neighborhoods.
IIRC, all the networks used the same number crunching outfit to do their projections. Whatever network TB works for, I doubt that he was the one who decided what to call and when. A talking head is just a talking head.
As for the polls still being open in the panhandle when the projection was made, I agree that no projection for a state should be announced while its polls are open. While no one was "precluded" from voting, I am sure that many are dissuaded. (My recollection is that the networks said that they were waiting for the polls to close in each state. Did the polls in the panhandle close later than Miami?
BTW, "slurry mouth"? Please define.
The networks (and Voter News Service) seem to be particularly clueless about states bi-sected by time zones. There aren't a whole lot -- Indiana, Kentucky and Tennessee also are split between the Eastern and Central Zons, while Texas, like Florida, has a far western sliver of the state within the Mountain Zone. We'll find out two years from now, when they have to call state senatorial and gubenatorial races, whether or not they've learned their lessons.
When the great state of Texas jointed with the rest of the union it was not unconditionally. Two conditions I know of were:
1) The State would have a single time zone.
2) The state would keep all of its unclaimed or vacant land. That is it was not to be Federal land like that found in Nevada or Utah other western states.
avid
Standard time zones were established in 1883. Texas joined the Union long before 1883.
Bush dosen't care about ethnic groups. He wants to use the Ioseph Stalin (TM) method to appear to be their friend and savior, but really concentrates power in the hands of a small group [of old money white people] leaving the minority groups out in a crap hole, but loving him none the less. The only way he'll help minorities is help them enjoy being slaves to the establishment.
Ioseph Stalin (TM)
It's Joseph Stalin because you're not speaking Russian.
BTW, do you call it Russia or Rassya (pronounced Ra-sea-ah)?
Spain or España
China or Chung-kuo
Japan or Nippon
Korea or Han-kuo
Hungary or Magyar
Finland or Suomi
Spain or España
Actually, I prefer Espanya (I lived in Barcelona for a year and developed a strong affinity for the Catalan people - that's the Catalan spelling).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[He will get a lot more than 9% of the African=American vote next time around, and more than the 38% of the Hispanic vote.]
George Dubya's "reaching out" is lame. The two headlining blacks in his cabinet all have ties to his daddy -- so you can't include them. Try again.
Blacks and hispanics won't fall for it.
BMTman
"George Dubya's 'reaching out' is lame. The two headlining blacks in his cabinet all have ties to his daddy -- so you can't include them. Try again."
I usually don't participate in these political threads, but I feel like I have to with this kind of nonsense. It doesn't COUNT that he picked a black man for Secretary of State and a black woman for National Security Advisor (both high-power positions, not places where you'd expect token minority appointments, like Education or HUD) because they worked with his father?!? WTF?! They aren't *really* black because they worked with Bush Senior? So when WOULD black appointees actually count as black, eh? Only if they were rootin-tootin liberals like Jesse Jackson? A Republican president isn't going to appoint a liberal Cabinet member -- NEWSFLASH! Neither would a Democrat president appoint a conservative Cabinet member. Nor would I expect them to.
Newsflash: I wouldn't appoint Jesse Jackson to head anything!
How about the Rockaway Park shuttle during the next snow storm?
Well alright on that. At least we agree on this. Jackson is a publicity seeking bum with very little love in his warped mind. If he wants to do something really important, he should go to some of those minority schools out here in California where the lighting fixtures don't work, where there aren't any textbooks, no toilet paper in the bathrooms, sinks that have no running water, and schools that are coming apart at the seams. There is where he should direct his talents, but that wouldn't get his name in the papers. There is no political hay in that. Kids don't vote. But this is where he could do a lot of good, but I won't hold my breath until he comes out here and addresses this tragic problem.
John: Why waste your breath on those guys. Transit whizzes they are, but politically they are so far to the left that they're in foul territory. I didn't hear any hue and cry from the Libs when Clinton failed to appoint a Republican during his first administration, but hear the libs howl when GWB doesn't appoint a Demo. As far as those two high profile African=Americans, Clinton never appointed one to as high and important position as Bush has. And I'll tell you something else. Jesse Jackass wouldn't be a good scab off of Colin Powell's or Condy Rice's rear end.
Give GWB a chance. One thing is certain. There will be a good deal more decency and honor in the office than the past eight years. He is reaching out to groups who rejected him for reasons I do not know, If he screws up, he will be out in four years. If we does well, he will be re-elected. I will make you a wager. He will get a lot more than 9% of the African=American vote next time around, and more than the 38% of the Hispanic vote. And if he does, the Democrats are toast.
There was an interesting column in the New York Post this morning, pointing out that Bush hasn't chosen any Jews for his cabinet or close advisors. Which in a sense is odd, because he got at least a decent percentage of the Jewish vote.
Not odd at all; in a 1993 interview, Bush stated his belief that all Jews, as well as all other non-Christians, are going to hell. He probably thinks his administration would fall out of favor with G-d if any of his Cabinet can't be "saved."
http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/07/07/born_again/index.html, page 2, seventh paragraph.
As a Republican I find that 1993 statement by the new President very troubling. I'm not a Jew, but my daughter's boyfriend is, and his parents have become very close to me and my wife. In plain fact, Jesus was a Jew. He never renounced his religion, and, therefore, he died a Jew. It seems to be that almost all early followers of Christ were Jews, and Peter is at the gate. Peter was Simon. He was a Jew. All Christians have to get by him to get in. I'll be damned if I would say anything derogatory about Jews even if I felt that way. You cannot be a good Christian is you are anti=Jewish. To me it as simple as that. GWB should renounce what he said quickly.
[GWB should renounce what he said quickly.]
Why should the lout renounce something if he truly believes in it???
BMTman
He "renounced" it, sort of, in 1998: "My faith tells me that acceptance of Jesus Christ as my savior is my salvation, and I believe I made it clear that it is not the governor's role to decide who goes to heaven. I believe [G-d] decides who goes to heaven, not George W. Bush." A couple paragraphs down in the same article.
I wonder if he thought any of the prisoners he sent to the electric chiar could get into heaven?
Had this one happened a year earlier, I'm sure it would have made it into the debate over Bush and the death penalty -- seven convicts escaped from a South Texas prision in early December, two serving time on murder charges, one for capital murder. On Christmas Eve they turned up 300 miles to the north in Dallas, where they robbed an Oshman's sporting goods store and shot a police officer (father of three) 11 times, killing him instantly.
The seven are still on the loose, so there's no telling if they'll end up back in jail, dead, or will get away cleanly, but as I said, if this had happened in December 1999 instead of December 2000, I'm sure the question of whether the two murderers should have gotten the death penalty instead of life in prison would have come up during the campaign, with the majority of people feeling if they had executed them in the first place the officer might be alive today.
They would have still been on Death Row, going through the Appeals process and planning the escape.
Get rid of the Death penalty, its barbaric! Make all capital offense criminals Donors! Depending on the crime, they give back to society.
Some only blood, marrow and skin. Others one of anything that comes in pairs or can regenerate, ie the liver. The ulimate Doner would give up all of the above, plus the heart and lungs when needed. Each catagory would yield its resources plus those below it. It would be a nice form of deterence. For those with life threating diseases, back to the Gadiator Games. Chicago Vs Los Vegas, New York Vs Philly .Charge for admission and commercial TV.
Put a bigger price tag on crime. If their appeals come through or they are proven innocent, well then they might still be alive, right.
avid
I wonder if he thought any of the prisoners he sent to the electric chiar could get into heaven?
Yeah, the innoscent ones.
I followed that link, and the Salon article ALSO states that:
1) Bush has several important advisors who are Jewish, which he wouldn't if his narrow religious belief manifested itself as actual hatred of and discrimination against Jews.
2) Gore, when he was running for Congress, made pro-life statements and called homosexuality "abnormal."
If that is so, then he has made a mistake.
Well, speaking as a Jew who voted for Bush, I don't particularly care if he appoints any Jews to major posts in his administration. Indeed, I would hate to think that he would use religion, race, or any other irrelevant criteria in making his decisions. What I do care about is that he appoints the best-qualified person for each post - and, so far, I think he's done a pretty good job in that area.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess all of the qualified Jews are Democrats.
There are a lot of qualified people. What I said is that I want the best-qualified person on the job. I make that kind of decision on a daily basis in my organization at work. Some might say that I have too many Indian ethnics in my test organization, or too many Orientals in development. Personally, I don't care what ethnic or other category a person fits in to - what I want is to make the best use of the resources I have available to me. One of my three release managers is going to be promoted to district manager (a direct supervisory position) the 15th of this month. She's not being promoted because of her sex or her ethnic group but because there is a new group being created which she is ideally qualified to lead. I don't know yet who I will appoint to fill her current role or if I'll redistribute that work among several other people, but I will do what makes the most sense, regardless of ethnicity or gender.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Frightening thought!
But there is one more line of defense if Cheney bites the big one: George Bush, Sr.! At least he's the brains in the family.
BMTman
As an aside, Mineta is Japanese-American, and was placed in a concentration camp with his family during WWII. He is currently Commerce Secretary, and the first Asian-American cabinet member. As Chair of the House Transportation and Public Works Committee until 1995, during which, I believe but may be wrong, the ISTEA legislation was passed.
As an aside, Mineta is Japanese-American, and was placed in a concentration camp with his family during WWII.
Internment camp, not concentration camp. BIG difference. The internment camps were certainly no walk in the park for those detained, and their creation was by no means one of America's finest hours, but they were still a far cry from what Hitler was doing in Europe.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Still, it was a rotten thing to do to a very industrious and hard working, patrioitic people. That episode so unfuriates me that in class when I come to EO9066 I can hardly contain myself. Despicable is the only word to describe what he did to those people. There was no excuse for it.
what he did to those people.
Who he? Earl Warren?
EO -- Executive Order? --It would have been Roosevelt. Of course if thr republicans hadn't delayed the start of WWII, Millions of combat and genocide victims would have survived the early 1940's, Meanwhile, the president select, bu$h plans to pursue the same type of foreign policy THIS WILL LEAD TO WAR IN THE NEXT 4 YEARS if your waste basket is on fire, throw water on it DON'T IGNORE IT Also this country is so divided by economic class and state of residence, to say nothing of the religious wedges driven by the republicans that America is no longer as capable of uniting behind a common cause as it once was. and it's only going to get worse A MAJOR WAR WOULD BE A DESTRUCTIVE STRAIN ON THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AT THIS POINT. I FEAR FOR AMERICA'S FUTURE Also, GAS PRICES -- YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHIN' YET
if the republicans hadn't delayed the start of WWII
Since when were FDR and Joe Kennedy Republicans?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Would you like to tell me in all honesty what kind of foreign policy the Clinton Admin. has pursued the last 8 years? Sending troops to hither and yon(and for what?), interfering in the governance of one of our staunchest allies(Israel) and selling them out for his "legacy," and helping to create such low morale in our armed services.
They all talk of the lack of foreign policy experience Bush has, but did you ever hear of media criticism of Clinton when he ran in 1992 as far as his expertise was concerned? He had none!
Carl M.
Back in 1992, one of the things that got Clinton elected was the complaint that Bush's father was spending way too much time on foreign policy -- remember the "It's the economy, stupid," line by James Carville?
It's hard to see what Clinton or Barak are trying to accomplish right now that doesn't have the whiff of some sort of desperation move -- Clinton for his legacy and Barak for a peace deal he hopes will bump up public opinion before the upcoming election.
And no, I don't know if a Bush foreign policy will be any better, but judging by the most recent poll numbers in Israel, he's going to be faced with a choice pretty quickly on whether or not to support Sharon (and Netanyahu) in their position against the current peace talks, because it looks like they're going to win the election.
>>>Would you like to tell me in all honesty what kind of foreign policy the Clinton Admin. has pursued the last 8 years?
Has it ever occurred to you that most of the Clinton administrations
foreign policy issues are carry-overs from previous administations - especially left-over unresolved issues from Bush's administration?
Iraq - Saddam Hussein is still the ruler of Bagdad. Yes, removing him may create a power void with some regional instability - but I am certain we all agree that it is quite unstable as it is.
Bosnia/Hersegovina/Kosovo/Serbia - Largely sweeping it under the carpet during one Bush administration is no better than Clinton's stance of aiding the Kosovars (or Bosnians).
For years it has never ceased to amaze me how Republicans in general (and especially certain Congressionsl leaders) so staunchly oppose almost any stance negative to then-"president" Milosevic! He seems to be the only major ex-Soviet bloc communist (he succeeded the infamous Marhsall Tito in Serbia) that the Republican leadership in Congress have nothing negative to say about! Remember that until the very end, Milosevic's party was still called the "Socialist" party.
So what does make Milosevic rather unique? The most obvious and clear answer is his heinous policy of "ethnic cleansing". "Ethnic cleansing" and massive evictions of a religously different - Bosnians and Croatians are Catholic and Kosovars are Muslim - with numerous local massacres, bigotry on a massive scale. Aren't Republicans supposed to be exquisitely sensitive to religious persecutions? - well , it appears that Catholic Christians and Muslims do not concern them.
It sometimes appears to me that old-fashioned bigotry and ethnic violence can restore even a hardened Communist in the minds of certain (less than open-minded) people in this country.
And then the younger Bush still defends his speaking at Bob Jones University - this university finally ended its policy against inter-raical dating, but left its policy against dating Catholics firmly in place! It is no wonder that Catholics in America are a "swing" voter group that, despite sometimes conservative leanings, cannot bring themselves to vote decisively for any party.
Haiti - Denying support to a renegade Catholic priest (Aristide) and openly supporting the military governemnt that followed him does not constitute good foreign policy.
It is difficult to state which governemnt was worse (Aristide's or the succeeding one), but isn't it interesting that Bush and the Republicans in Congress backed the (deranged) military rulers over a (also deranged) clerical one? True loyalties - where do they lie!
Israel - Well, neither Bush nor Clinton's administration caused the original conflict here (obviously). However, which president has been most consistent and firm about the U.S.'s support for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians? I do not believe that it was President Bush.
China - Both administrations have tried a friendly (as can be possible with a communist-ruled country) policy with China. Oh, well - Clinton didn't start anything new here.
Sorry, I didn't mean to post twice. Please read my next post (and disregard this one) as I added some new things there (about Bosnia especially).
-cordially,
turnstiles
I do not criticize presidents elect for lack of experience, that's why there are advisors. Condoleeza Rice is a G*E*N*I*U*S (Gary Hart's foreign policy advisor) and G.W.B. Has the permission of all sane americans to call Dad for advice As for Israel, any delay in reacting to a threat will be disastrous. Bush had better be quick to respond. but the only real guarantee of Israel's future is a lasting peace with it's neighbors, negotiated with a palestinian entity which can be trusted. Arafat is no longer capable of delivering the goods. and it's not all Ariel Sharon's fault, Gore would face the same dilemma but I think he would react more quickly. One early indicator would be if Bush does the right thing and relocates the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as the law requires and as he promised in his campaign. One thing is certain, any peace deal is years in the future.I am Jewish and am as concerned as anyone about this issue.
>>>Would you like to tell me in all honesty what kind of foreign policy the Clinton Admin. has pursued the last 8 years?
Carl:
Has it ever occurred to you that most of the Clinton administration's foreign policy issues are actually carry-overs from previous administrations - especially left-over unresolved issues from Bush's administration?
Iraq - Saddam Hussein is still the ruler of Bagdad. Yes, removing him may create a power void with some regional instability - but I am certain we all agree that it is quite unstable as it is.
Bosnia/Hersegovina/Kosovo/Serbia -
Largely sweeping it under the carpet during one Bush administration is no better than Clinton's stance of aiding the Kosovars (or Bosnians). Quite simply, if the U.S. did not lead the UN at that point, Milosevic would probably still been power and the issue would have been passed on to future presidents anyway.
And it was not in internal affair of one country as it involved: 1) two peoples (Serbians and Kosovars) that should not have been placed in the artificial combined nation of Serbia/Kosovo to be begin with (I believe the UN was responsible for this); 2) the massive outflux of hundreds of thousands of Kosovars into several surrounding countries made it clearly an international problem; 3) remember that Serbia has actually invaded foreign nations during the Bush administration - Bosnia/Hercegovina.
For years it has never ceased to amaze me how many Republicans in general (and especially certain Congressional leaders) so staunchly oppose almost any stance negative to then-"president" Milosevic! He seems to be the only major ex-Soviet bloc communist (he succeeded the infamous Marhsall Tito in Serbia) that the Republican leadership in Congress have nothing negative to say about! Remember that until the very end, Milosevic's party was still called the "Socialist" party.
So what does make Milosevic rather unique? The most obvious and clear answer is, in fact, his heinous policy of "ethnic cleansing". "Ethnic cleansing" and massive evictions of a religously different people - Bosnians and Croatians are Catholic and Kosovars are Muslim - with numerous local massacres, bigotry on a massive scale. Aren't Republicans supposed to be sensitive and alert to religious persecutions? - Well, it certainly appears (by the Congress's and Bush's own actions - or inactions) that Catholic Christians and Muslims do not concern them. Sadly, it sometimes appears to me that old-fashioned bigotry and ethnic violence can restore even a hardened Communist in the minds of certain (less than open-minded) people in this country.
And then the younger Bush gave his well-known speech at Bob Jones University - this university finally ended its policy against inter-racial dating, but left its policy against dating Catholics firmly in place! It is no wonder that Catholics in America are a "swing" voter group that, despite sometimes conservative leanings, cannot bring themselves to vote decisively for any party.
Haiti - Denying support to a renegade Catholic priest (Aristide) and openly supporting the military government that followed him does not constitute good foreign policy. It is destabilizing and neither one probably deserved our support.
Israel - Well, neither Bush nor Clinton's administration caused the original conflict here (obviously). However, which president has been most consistent and firm about the U.S.'s support for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians? I do not believe that it was President Bush.
China - Both administrations have tried a friendly (as can be possible with a communist-ruled country) policy with China. I have known quite a few damning stories about this regime from friends and other people. However, I do understand the point (made by many free-trade Republicans and some Democrats) that China will make an increasingly important trade partner in the future.
Also, the Los Alamos security issue (which is now known to be seriously exaggerated) actually has been occurring since at least the Reagan administration.
In short, I never believed that Bush was quite the foreign policy president that some claimed him to be.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Sorry, I didn't mean to post twice! In any case, please read this one instead of the other because I added some new things here.
-cordially,
turnstiles
You forgot Clinton's policy of pressuring Russia not to smash Chechniya, another genocide prevented by Clinton.
Yes, indeed. Absolutely right. And Chechnya is even more definitely not just an "internal affair" of the state of Russia as it is even officially a separate state.
Except for Iraq and China none of the above matters a hoot.
A] we're trapped somewhat in the Iraq situationbecause we built a dependency on mostly Mideastern imported petroleum
B]I fear we built a monstrosity with China and they're getting what I see as the biggest piece of our trade deficit because making things in China or Mexico are currently the cheapest way of making consumer goods and "toys". It scares me considering their population and where an economic strenght we give them can make the only real surviving Communist nation thrive. Our own "leadership" helped give us that and business and the consumer played right into their hands.
C] Vietnam was a disgrace enough on us for the American blood we wasted and the money, IMHO to prove things like Kosovo etc will get us noplace and I hope it never becomes another Vietnam.[it could]
Israel, Haiti, and Cuba among others if you wish are strictly politics. Why did we let Communism take over Cuba, close to home, and then fight to "end Communism" in Vietnam.?
There are so many nations friendly to us, that live like us, like Northern and Western Europe, and I"d add Italy and Spain largely..why can't we just be grateful for the friends we have and the places at peace instead of wasting blood and money over things they can't change as the locals there can't or won't change things. We waste lives and in the end come out right where we started.
we're trapped somewhat in the Iraq situationbecause we built a dependency on mostly Mideastern imported petroleum
No. Most of our imported oil is from this hemisphere. However Europe receives much of its oil from the ME. Middle East problems could cause Europe to compete with us for Mexican and South American oil.
Ed:
>>>Vietnam was a disgrace enough on us for the American blood we wasted and the money, IMHO to prove things like
Kosovo etc will get us noplace and I hope it never becomes another Vietnam.[it could]
Israel, Haiti, and Cuba among others if you wish are strictly politics. Why did we let Communism take over Cuba, close to
home, and then fight to "end Communism" in Vietnam.?
You are raising some great points here, especially about Vietnam. The only thing that without a "promise" not to attack Cuba when the missiles were being installed (later removed), the spector of a nuclear confrontation was a real possibility during the early 60's.
Free trade with China is a tricky issue. One positive it that clearly encourages capitalism in China. Areas where some degree of free market has been allowed in China (Canton area, etc.) have grown and prospered enormously (>200% growth in revenues in several years). Will it significantly aid the end of the communists in China - I'm not certain.
I never thought Kosovo would turn out in any way like Vietnam. Recent events have borne me out as well. In Kosovo, the UN and the US were largely well received by the population (of course, not by Milosevic and his Serbian Socialists lackeys) - much more so than in Vietnam at least. More importantly, as events have turned out, Milosevic's government has been discredited even in the eyes of the Serbian people who voted him out of office and a new and (at least for now) stable replacement government had taken over in Serbia. An autocratic party and army (Serbian) without firm popular support of its own people simply cannot successfully withstand combat against an overwhelmingly stronger military power (the UN/US). Perhaps people in Serbia rememeber the dark days under communism - under Milosevic. In contrast, the North Vietnamese government, whatever its merits, had wider support than most communist movements, having successfully fought foreign enemies in the French (and I believe the Japanese also) prior to the U.S., and could draw on this support in a limited non-nuclear war against the U.S.
Also, there is a substantial military difference here: while historically Serbians have been famously successful guerilla fighters (against Nazi Germany and later, Tito kept even Stalin at arm's length), modern Serbia did have a conventional army with heavy equipment that can be targeted and attacked successfully by the superior armed forces of the U.S. This contrasts greatly with Vietnam where armies "disappeared" into the night.
In Vietnam, the U.S. was often seen as an outsider and where it supported a succession of governments in South Vietnam that were infamously corrupt and very ineffectual (of course, still better than the communists - but this is not saying very much). In fact, IIRC South Vietnam had 6 or 7 successive governments, all but one of which overthrew the previous one.
Well, good to hear from you.
cordially,
turnstiles
Thank you for the information and positive outlook on matters that concern me. I don't dig deep enough to seethe other side; guess I do wish we had more real industry in the USA as we once did. Thanx again.
Oh please, like Mr Mass Transit from Arkansas really helped out. The SUV boom started while he was in office, and hell, I've never seen a pic of him on a subway or commuter train. And Ms Clinton probbably can't figure out how to swipe a Metrocard, let alone navigate around NY by subway.
Hey, Amtrak sucks harder now than they did 5 years ago, the LIRR's still a mess, NJT, MN, Septa, etc are still running the same 70's vintage junk they were 8 years ago, Penn station is still a dump, and the vast vast vast majority of people still travel by car.
i.e. Clinton didn't do much for mass transit.
Oh yeah, and with Bush in there, we might finally get the balls to kill of that joke called Amtrak.
Other than too fares out of most people's price range, what's wrong with Amtrak?
You mean that in itself isn't enough? Someone needs to put a few new colors in your paint box.
5 years ago was Amtrak's all time low point. In 1994-95 Amtrak tried to cut it way into profitability. It was a disaster and they lost even more money. Amtrak service now is far better than in 1995.
Bullshit. I'm still getting stuck 20+ min on the NEC, I'm paying more, my Hartford connection is a freaking commuter train that makes the OLD LIRR equipment look like a Pullman (heh ;) It's just as crowded, just as slow, and the employees still have that "I don't give a shit" attitude. The Hartford station is a dump, 2 out 3 ticket machines are regularly busted, there's a few gaping holes in the platform. Oh, and I now need a reservation for virtually every train out of Hartford.
Face it. Amtrak's a joke. Unfortunatly, the joke is on the taxpayers.
My Amtrak trains are usually on time. FYI The Springfield Line is a mostly commuter line and if an Amtrak Amfleet makes the LIAR look like Pullman I'll love to ride on the LIAR. The trains are slow because of idiot drivers in Meriden and Wallingford who can't figure out grade crossings needing 25mph PSR's. Now that the Inland trains get 2 F40's each acceleration shouldn't be a problem. I'm sorry about Hartford station, but Amtrak dosen't have the money to build a palace station is every jerkwater burg. The Hartford station is very nice compared to the acerage station. You should be thankful that you have a heated place to wait, mass transit connections, ticket agents (BTW buy your tickets online or from a person, not those lamo machines), and itsn't a basement under some sports venue. Finally all the Amtrak employees I have dealt with have been curtious and helpful.
I am rather pissed about the reservation thing, but again I remind you to buy your tickets online or just use an agent. There is also a way to make a reservation via a public phone and then to pay for it on the train.
PS: What's under the Hartford platform? They should have really kept a second track there.
The Peter Pan Trailways buses pull in under the platform. The second track was on the same level as the first. (IIRC, there were 4 tracks in the station at one time.) Anyway, there is a palatial station in Hartford. It's just not being used as a RR station any more. (Nice Italian restaurant in part of it.) What is being used is the bus terminal. (It looks like a bus terminal.)
I think Amtrak service in the NE is great. Compare to backwater areas of the country with one train per day, which is routinely as late as several hours. The seats are very comfortable. "The joke is on the taxpayers."??? The government taxes railroads, builds roads and freeways, and subsidises auto travel. How can you say the taxpayers are being hoodwinked by Amtrak?
Oh please, like Mr Mass Transit from Arkansas really helped out. The SUV boom started while he was in office...
*sigh* Sadly, that's what happens when the economy does well. People frivolously buy expensive vehicles.
Maybe Bush will be good for mass transit after all...
Good show Phil. But just between you and me, I don't think you impressed the liberals at all. They all have a blind spot where Bill Clinton is concerned. Keep your fingers crossed. He just might be indicted. Wouldn't that be a whoop.
I rode the 7 (head car number 9643) to 42nd street. I brought a number 7 Train Straphanger T-shirt and then got on the Shuttle at Grand Central. I rode (1911 head car). The Motorman almost missed the Train because the Motorman on the tail end almost closed the door. He and I laughed because He said he can't go no where with out me!. Anyway I got of 1911 and went to the Tailing motor at Times Square and now is the head motor. it is 1961. There was a Guy looking thru the Railfan window. I told him about the R62A we were on, then I mentioned NYC Subway org and then I told him there are alot of people who know alot more than me, and even some Motormen!
Riding the system just for fun are you !
On a October day last year I was on the #7s lead car. A small boy came up to the storm door window. After a few stops I asked if he knew it was the IRTs birthday ... he didn't care :-(
I don't think he even knew what IRT ment.
Mr t__:^)
I talked to T/O's and C/Rs from the 7 and 6 line. On the 7, they don;t believe that the R62's will make it to the 7 anytime soon. I am 18 now, and they say they will be here still when I am a T/O. that should be a couple of years from now. Then on the 6, I asked a C/R "no R142's today"? she says there are some out, but these are warmer(R62A) She said the R142's are a piece of Junk. Then I said thats why they aren't all running yet! LOL.
I have a friend who is a C/R on the 2 line and he said the crew does not like them over there as well.
Train#1982Mike
Can you be more specific about the problems?
Hurrah!! my pre-taped "heypaul's anti-142s seminar"
HAS made it to the Flatbush Terminal VCR unit!!
Now if only Flatbush had a TV so we could watch it.
IMHO, if John Lennon were alive, he'd recycle a hit of his and title it "Give Them a Chance" in reference to the R-142s. I'm not going to judge them until I have a chance to ride on them myself. It's only fair.
When you are a T/O? Are you currently employed by the TA? No? Then the correct expression is 'IF'. And I just love these first-person accounts of what people think.
-Hank
I was just wondering: do any of the mainline A or B division lines (other than shuttles) ever run trains shorter than eight cars?
6 car Gs on weekdays, 4 car Gs on friday evenings and all weekend. On Friday eve the G has a C/R in the rear cab, and annoys the hell out of Queens Blvd riders (particularly at Grand Ave, one entrance is at the very rear of the platform, far far away from the last car). The R-110B on the C is 6 cars long, and pulls up to the 10 marker at every stop.
yes the G train CrossTown local Runs 6 cars aabbaa coupling a representing operating cars, and b representing trailers R-46
Seven, sorry but you are incorrect. The G train runs 6 car consists. All but one are A-A-A-B-B-A. There is one consist of A-B-A-B-B-A. There are no G consists in the configuration that you list.
im sorry i meant A-A-A-B-B-A i was misspelling my apologies thanks a lot guy
This morning, i was on the 6:55 a.m. "D" out of Brighton Beach to the city, and saw "Q" and "D" trains running deadhead all the way back on the express track. When my "D" got to Kings Highway, the "Q" was having people get on the "D" and it never passed us. Was the tracks still covered with snow and ice, or were there other things that happened on the Brighton line to have this effect?
Q train(s) had trouble with ice on the rails. The heavier, more reliable R-68 had no such problem.
But, boy, were those R-68's slow this morning on the D!
That's just what Train Dude said: the R-68s had no problem with the ice, so they were running just as they always do! :D
Several years ago, I was having a problem with heel spurs. As a result, I could barely walk by the end of the day - especially when it was exceptionally cold. One particularly cold day, I was on my way to John Jay College where I was a part time student. I was changing from the F to the D at 50th Street about 5 PM. I was plodding along the platform as fast as I could when a young, 'outwardly' attractive young lady came up behind me on the crowded platform. She walked around me and turned and yelled,
"Jesus-FU%$!N-Christ, can you walk any FUC&!NG slower"?
Needless to say she got to the rear of the D train and waited as I kept plodding along. Eventually, I got to the rear of the train and boarded at the same door that she did. On board, I (slightly loudly) expressed the fact that despite the fact that I had a physical disability, she and I ended up in the same place and I didn't have to be rude to anyone to get there. I got off at Columbus Circle because it was my stop. She followed close behind - perhaps to change trains again or perhaps due to being embarrassed about her nasty, thoughtless behavior. But I digress.
Much as I did that night, the Ds may plod along but usually get there as fast as the allegedly faster car classes. There is much to be said for dependability.
I can see your tounge in your cheek there!!
It shows that much, does it?
Well I went to the Hall today:
1. Met the new leader, Roger Toussaint. It was the first day at the job.
2. Met a few people there from the different departments.
3. Met the Union reps.
4. Got the pass.
5. Go to PS248 tomorrow for the rest of the week.
6. Did I say what division Im in? Lets see, there are 55 people in the class. 34 slots for the A division and 21 for the B division. Well lets just say that I will stay true to my namesake. I was at the bottom of the list and the B division slots went like hotcakes!! In 5 minutes, they were gone. There was even had a guy from the Bx that wanted the B but the pick people told him otherwise.
Well at least I get to operate the Redbirds b4 they say bye-bye or gurgle-gurgle. We might go to the East on Friday but it is a slim chance.
Railfan:
1. Uptown N and R was still going local at 23 and 28Sts.
2. There was service disruption on the 7 this morning. No service along 42St.
3. A R142 set with the 6336-6341 cars in the rear discharge passengers at Chambers(downtown platform). There was another set earlier entering Hoyt.
IRT, Here I come!!!
Train#1983Mike
I don't think you'll have to spend much time over in the "A" division. When the "B" picks it's second pick of 2001, send a G2(letter to document unusual occurrances. In this case it's used differently)to the pick section where you'll be placed in the spot according to your file number. They'll come out with a notice stating when a pick will begin and the deadline to have the G2 in if you wish to consider transferring divisions. If you don't make it over this year, you will next year.
I forgot to mention that when I started as a conductor, I had to go to the A division(12-91). I picked a job in the A for the 3-92 pick, then put a G2 in to pick in the B. I was able to transfer to the B in 8-92. So, I had less than a year on the job and already worked both divisions. You'll move up fast in seniority. I know a conductor with about 3 yrs who has Friday/Saturday off on the p.m. tour.
Look at the bright side SubBus, the A division is the perfect training grounds for a C/R. I did a year there and transferred to the B. (I HATED THE IRT).
It's always rush hour in the IRT (for a C/R) so be prepared.
Good Luck!
Thanks!!!. I aint mad at all. It seems there is a lot more work in the B division as far equipment and other stuff. Besides, I grew up on the Brooklyn IRT so Im in familiar territory.
Train#1984Mike
Thanks!!!. I aint mad at all. It seems there is a lot more work in the B division as far equipment and other stuff. Besides, I grew up on the Brooklyn IRT so Im in familiar territory.
Train#1984Mike
from "News Briefs" in Tuesday's Philly Inquirer:
"The Y2K computer glitch hit Norway's national railroad company a year later than expected. It was discovered when none of the company's new 16 airport express trains or 13 high-speed, long-distance Signatur trains would start early in the morning of Dec. 31. The computers on board the trains apparently did not recognize the date. The problem was quickly solved on a temporary basis by resetting the computers to Dec. 1, 2000, and the trains started."
A recent Railway Age article mentioned that Heathrow airport was in line for a people mover. I haven't been there in a few years, so could any Londoners or someone who's spent some time there lately fill me in? What would this mean for the subway which already stops at most terminals? Where would they connect? Would one supersede the other? Thanks a lot.
London Heathrow is served by the London Underground (subway). The subway has several stops through the airport. Within the last year, British Rail opened a commuter rail express line to Heathrow from downtown London (Paddington Station, I believe). I had heard rumors of a people mover which would better cover areas not immediately near the subway and feed more people to it.
London Underground has its own website. Use Yahoo or another search engine to bookmark it.
London Underground (LUL) has plans to build a Picadilly Line extension to Terminal 5 and have it ready by 2007. The people mover appears to be an airport shuttle. It could use a some sort of a mini-people mover between Terminal 4 and the LUL station as it is a very long walk between the two.
For more info on LUL: www.thetube.com or www.londontransport.co.uk
You think that little underground ramp from Heathrow 4 to its Underground station is "a long walk"? I thought it was the most convenient thing I'd ever seen. :-)
Try dragging your suitcases from the Shuttle at Times Square to the IND at 8th Avenue. At least Heathrow 4's Underground station is barrier free and accessible via elevators. Of course that can't be said for the rest of the Underground especially if you need to transfer from the Piccadilly line to some other line in central London.
>>>You think that little underground ramp from Heathrow 4 to its Underground station is "a long walk"? I thought it was the most convenient thing I'd ever seen.<<<
Mind you I'm not complaining, but when I walked from the British Airways terminal to the LU, the walk took quite a while. Unless I'm getting confused with the walk from the Virgin Airways terminal (Terminal 1) to the LU Term.1,2,3 stop.
Even with a long walk, it's still far more convenient than what NYC has.
Heathrow is a long subway ride from the center of London. I thought I read somewhere that because of that they recently opened a railroad station at the airport. Those trains offer faster service to the center city and connections to intercity routes.
They built a whole new railroad spur from an existing line (which was electrified for the Heathrow service). It's pretty nice. They have remote check-in and baggage check at Paddington Station. It costs GBP 12, kind of expensive, but the remote check in is worth it (you can use the remote check in and then use the Underground to get to the airport, if you want).
-Dave
That was a very interesting article. I'm disappointed there was no mention of the Hartsfield Airport people mover. According to the Adtranz web site, it's the most complex system in the world. Also, it carries more people than any other people mover hands down. Also more passengers than many subway systems.
5 free or almost free steps to vastly improve SEPTA service.
1. Have cashiers in ticket booths give change. (otherwise, they are no better than the machines sitting next to them)
2. Display system maps in every subway and commuter rail station, not just one (Suburban).
3. Indicate bus frequencies at all bus stops.
4. Give away system maps for free, to encourage use of the system. Do not sell them for SEVEN DOLLARS.
5. Instruct bus drivers to stop at every stop where passengers are visibly waiting, even if they are behind schedule.
1) Unless you want hopless gridlock the agents can either deal with paper transfers and passes and cash fares OR they can run a little token store.
2) At most commuter rail stations the cost of a system map would exceed the value of the station. Also I believe all subway stations have basic system maps.
3) Ok
4) The $7 maps are HI QUALITY and worth $7. They are NOT give away items.
5) I can't really comment on this.
#4. Yes, the maps are worth $7. But SEPTA is neither AAA nor Rand-MacNally. They should not be in the business of creating (as SEPTA customer service told me) "The best and most detailed map ever made of Philadelphia". I don't need to know every 8 foot wide alley. Just the streets with bus routes on them would be nice.
SEPTA also has no money. If they don't charge $7 they'll give away a phamphlet just like every other city.
Why not post it on their website like every other city? That's free.
No they won't
New York has nice, detailed maps. The bus maps give you every eight foot alley they know about.
Which brings up a good point...neighborhood maps like the ones that many New York subway stations have would be nice to have at SEPTA stations.
Just an idea
Mark Michalovic
Interesting. For # one, where do they not give change? That is rediculous, but I think they acutally do. And they take transfers too, don't forget.
#2 They have system maps at 15th Street Station and on all the trains, and on quite a few other stations, like Wayne on the R5 and others. There is even a suburban map at Bryn Mawr for the route 100, although that is really outdated (I know, SEPTA seriously needs more)
#3 Bus frequencies aren't always that accurate, and would have to be changed whenever there were schedule changes. They have those on the route 100, and now they changed late ngiht service to every half hour rather than every hour, so those aren't correct.
#4 These are only suburban transit maps, and they should be free, like the City and University City maps are free.
#5 Lol, where does that happen? That has never happened to me at all before. Are you sure the buse driver didn't just think they were waiting for another bus. Also, the bus may have been full, you know. (although in Jamaica that wouldn't matter at all)
#1. Any subway stations. There are cashiers, but you still need to give exact change. Most stations now have change machines, but it is still a parody to have cashiers in booths who will gladly take your $2 but not give you your 40 cents back. People from out of town are astounded.
#2. I am referring to the complete system map, not just the subway and suburban rail lines map. It would be nice to see where the busses go from the subway station or suburban rail station whence you are exiting.
#3. There are a few bus stops in Center City, particularly along Walnut St. which indicate, e.g. Rte. 21: 7am-10am, 7 minutes, 10am-4pm, 20 minutes, 4pm-6pm, 15 minutes, 6pm-9pm, 30 minutes, 9pm-2am, 45 minutes, 2am-7am, 60 minutes; Rte. 19: etc.
It would be very inexpensive to indicate this on every bus stop, particularly on urban routes which haven't changed in decades.
#5. I often take the 40 from 3rd and Lombard around 8:30am to work. The route begins at 2nd and Lombard. If it is running late, it will take on passengers at 2nd, then not stop until 7th or later, although there are lots of people waiting at every block. I have experienced this on several other routes at different times of the day. Sometimes the driver will smile or even wave at you as he or she passes.
For #5, the Q23 bus up here does that all the time during the AM rush when it's ON-TIME! But it's so crowded, a mouse couldn't fit in there. I get on at the third stop (65th ave) for the "shuttles" which only go half the entire route (started 62nd drive). Trying to get on one that came all the way from East Elmhurst requires serious prayer. I am often the last person on before the bus goes straight to 71/Continental, on both the shuttles and full length runs. The buses run every 5 minutes, so how are they so crowded? Moreover, how on earth do the people at those stops get anywhere? We need articulateds, or a 108st subway line.
#1. Any subway stations. There are cashiers, but you still need to give exact change. Most stations now have change machines, but it is still a parody to have cashiers in booths who will gladly take your $2 but not give you your 40 cents back. People from out of town are astounded.
Why do they even have those monkeys then? install a turnstile that takes bills and change.
Probably a union thing. Steven Brookens would shut down the city again, and maybe then have the audacity to run for city council.
Well the MDBF numbers for December are not official yet but the R-68s of Bronx lineage have for the 2nd time in 3 months performed at an MDBF of over 400,000 miles. Official numbers will be available in a few days.
Steve,
Please E-mail me with your E-mail address. There is a matter I must speak with you about privately and you haven't been putting in your E-mail address of late.
Peace,
ANDEE
If only the other equipment had as good a zoo keeper as our farorite Supt. who keeps those Hippos rolling and rolling and rolling.
A tip of my Subway Series hat to you !
Mr t__:^)
Since I do ride some of your cars, my unoffical thanks (offical in a few days).
BTW, will the storm hurt you much for next month?
I suspect that despite our best efforts, snow and chemicals will cause a spike in trolley lead failures. This is despite the fact that the trucks were replaced recently. I never underestimate the effects of weather.
What part of the T-lead is prone to failure? The segment
between the underbody and the truck? Why is that one
wire more vulnerable than the motor leads or air hoses?
There is a connector between the truck and car body segments. This particular junction, because of its location and size, and considering the high currents it handles, is prone to failure due to packed snow above the truck.
Are they still using the "handshake" connector with a fiberboard
sleeve that slips over it? Maybe a useful improvement would
be a rubber boot matched to the O.D. of the T-lead that can
be clamped at each end.
We sleeved it. We booted it. We wrapped it. We shielded it. Results were the same.
Hmmmm. Is the problem that corrosion causes the connector
to fail open, or the line blows to ground? I would think that
a connector problem could be addressed with a hermetic rubber
boot and possibly filling the inside with a water-blocking gel.
That's great news. Keep it up!
The MDBF I posted for the Concourse R-68s was a preliminary number and was incorrect. It was not 400,000 miles+ as originally posted. The actual number appears to be 556,400 miles. The 12 month moving MDBF for the Concourse fleet is also a record setting 200,000 miles.
Is this like the new on-time preformance system, i.e. the trains are just as late but the report shows an improvement ?
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone know if a Nassau bus map (eg MSBA route map) is available in similar format to the borough bus maps? The MTA website contains only individual Nassau bus schedules.
No. I don't believe so. I always thought Nassau should be treated as the sixth borough when it comes to bus maps--ie the map should be in the same format and part of the same "series", both systems being part of the MTA and all. But no. 'Tis not the case.
:-) Andrew
I haven't seen one available to the public in many years. I'll be in the Hempstead terminal in a few weeks and will check then.
Well, the map DOES exist in hard copy. I thought Ron was just asking about the online edition. You can get one by calling MTA Long Island Bus.
Dumb question: Any good reason they didn't make it "MTA Nassau Bus" or something. That's really who they serve.
:) Andrew
Sulfolk bus is not part of the MTA? They dont take metrocards.
No. Suffolk Transit is county-run, as are the systems for Westchester (Bee-Line), Rockland (Transport of Rockland) Putnam (Puntnam Area Rapdi Transit or PART) and Dutchess (Loop). There are also a few city and town run bus systems in Southern New York State: City of Long Beach busses (they run a few unnumbered routes, and the N69), the Town of Huntington's HART, and the City of Pughkeepsie's system.
A few Nassau LI Bus routes do overlap a little into Suffolk. But all bear the "N" prefix.
:) Andrew
I thought Bee Line was run by Libery Lines (or is that just its Bronx routes)?
Liberty has extensive routes in Westchester & provides Express service to Manhattan from the Bronx for nycDOT.
Mr t__:^)
Bee Line has contractors who can put in small notes on the bus but they have to be decorated in the Bee Line motif.
I've only noticed that some of the Bee Line buses say "Operated by Liberty Lines," so I assumed it to mean that Bee Line was a subsidiary of Liberty Lines. Thanks for the clarification.
Go to Hempstead terminal. You may also find one at several LIRR stations (in a take-one or ticket office). Map was last updated in 1994, so no N6 limited (and possibly no JFK flyer).
Suffolk county also has a bus map, I found one once in Babylon. Its in a similar style to Westchester County's Bee Line map (available at MNRR stations, last updated Feb 1997).
The Newark and Hudson NJ bus maps have not been updated since 1990, but they are available at customer service desks in Newark and Hoboken.
There, everything you ever needed to know about finding NY area bus maps.
Thanks to all for their useful input.
Ron, I have a "Long Island Bus Syatem Map" 1994 & "Suffolk County Transit Bus Route Map" Fall 1998.
Try calling LI Bus at 516-766-6722 & Suffolk Transit 631-852-5200.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks Mr. T!
This evening it was personally confirmed to me from CapitalOne Bank that their "Amtrak Smartrak Rewards" program does not, and has not, for the last week or more, made any Amtrak rewards for the use of such cards. They admitted that customers such as myself have not been advised by CapitalOne Bank that this progam has been discontinued. Many of you may have known this, but they verified that no official notice has been made to their customers and could not either explain why such notification has not been made nor could they give a firm date by which they would disseminate such important information to their customers. Since many Subtalkers like to take long Amtrak trips and may indeed possess such a card, they should, in my opinion, be aware of what happened. While I offer no personal opinion about whether or not one should continue to use such cards, this information might give you reason to consider your use of such credit cards with any bank that may have issued them. There have been references to Amtrak's new "mileage program" on this and other railfan websites. "Let the buyer beware!"
Where are the track maps for the three Divisions? I can't seem to find the compact, detailed, maps anymore. Were they removed from this Web site? If so, why? If not, I'd appreciate "directions" as to how to get to them. Problem: The last times I tried to access them from the link that says "Track Maps", the connection "derailed" and and I was "switched" to something else. Anyone else have this problem?
Thanks.
Check each division section (eg. www.nycsubway.org/irt). They're each toward the bottom of the page. I checked them and they work for me.
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/
seems to work just fine from my PC at work. Where did you find the old link?
When the B, D, and Q (screw the new names) end up on Broadway, do you think one staircase per platform will do?
Just some food for thought next time you think transferring there is bad now.
Come to think of it, all they're doing is basically fixing up the other staircase. Two staircases isn't all that much better than one. If only they had a ramp...
That ramp should have never been remvod.
The B & D will not have a section operating via Broadway. They will terminate at 34th/6th.
The Q will operate via Broadway (probably from 57th St).
That's what I meant by "screw the new names." I wanted to stress the 3 additional lines without getting all wordy or using fancy HTML.
I still feel that this should be done the same way as the 1980s South Side Only G.O.
8 PM. Don't miss it. The R-30s ride again.
I have it on tape. Don't care to see Fox slice it to death.
Peace,
ANDEE
Its an awful movie anyway.
True, but the subway scenes, even though inaccurate are neat.
Peace,
ANDEE
As do I. They'll probably show the scene where the innocent R-30 gets all smashed up, but cut out the one where the bad ol' token booth torcher gets what's comin' to him.
Right, and if I remember the scene they have a numbered route on the end of that R-30 (I guess trying to pass it off as an IRT Redbird).
Next to "Taking of Pelham 1-2-3" "Money Train" is in my book as one of the better made subway flicks. The production crew should be commended for painstakingly reproducing a subway station, tunnel and most of the esthetic detailings of the NYCT system on a Hollywood location. Not bad for 'faking it'.
BMTman
They cut to view of the train 3 times in that scene. The first 2 it said <5> Dyre Ave. The third time it said N Coney Island.
I'm sure you'll enjoy Money Train's trivia and goofs sections at the Internet Movie Database.
--Mike
And dressing up Union Square to pass it off as Wall St.? Come on.
I think a great idea that I wouldn't think to be so difficult would be to add some sort of software to the Subway Station Value Reader to tell you how much time you have left on a transfer. I believe that this would be great so that you know wether you will be paying the buck fifty when you get off the train to transfer to the bus or if the transfer is still good. Does anyone else think this would be atleast a 1/2 good idea?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" I almost wrote this on a paper the other day
Would cost the MTA money to get Cubic to do it. Cubic won't even fix problems without money up front, e.g. the Depot Computers are 2 to 5 minutes behind the mainframe even though the "system" is supose to re-set the clock above a one minute error.
Mr t__:^)
Is the MTA credit rating that bad?
With student passes and unlimited passes they show when you last swiped. They should do that with regular cards as well.
With pay per ride I don't believe that it shows the last time you swiped. With any type of unlimited ride card, they show you because of the 18 minute rule. They should show when u last swiped your Pay per ride metrocard then you could add 2 hours and know if the transfer is ok or not still.
Mike "Mr Mass Transit" As my friend called me tonite
It's actually two hours and eighteen minutes.
You can always go to your friendly Station Agent and ask them to check your card to see if the transfer is still there.Our computer in the booth wioll show the last time/place the card was used. Each bus line and station has a code (Which I will not reveal). We could check your card and tell you "it was used at 3pm on the bus or it was used at 130pm on the subway."
That's a waste of time. Having to wait in line and having to lose control of the card.
Come on Piggs ... our friend is just trying to say that the Station Agent should be willing to provide the customer some SERVICE. All of us employees of the system should never forget it's part of our job.
Mr t__:^)
That reminds people that if they really needed the information, they could still get it. It doesn't mean that the TA shouldn't consider the original suggestion.
>>>...having to lose control of the card<<<
Why do you consider this a problem?
Peace,
ANDEE
Dave,
Wow...you started of the new year, century, and millenium with a BANG! I really like the new design to the opening page...it works, and has many features of "modern" webpages, like the changing photos without a reload :) -Nick
Dave:
Nice job. The webpage hasn't look better. It is more colorful than before. Keep up the good work. Terrific to start off the new year with a fresh look.
BMTJeff
Thanks. I like the way it looks better at home moreso than at work. Combination of font choice and size, I suppose.
In case anyone is wondering, I always view and design the site in a "letter sized paper" browser, higher than it is wide (around 600x1024). Text is easier to read when the lines aren't too long. I think this is atypical of most surfers though, who have the browser maximized to the size of the screen which is wider than it is tall.
Us guys & gals with glasses (and without 17 inch or larger screens) appreciate that we don't have to use a magnifying glass to read Sub/BusTalk. Thanks Dave.
Mr t__:^)
The new format is great! I typically have the window taking up the full height of the screen, and about 3/8 to 1/2 the width. The new front page is definitely "narrow browser" friendly.
Thank you for providing a great resource, as always!
More complaints about W train,
W=WORSE
Peace,
ANDEE
Do you smell LAW SUIT??
Mmmmmmmmmmm, It's a possibility
Peace,
ANDEE
[From the article:"Wong estimated that for the thousands of people who live in Brooklyn and commute to Chinatown, the changes will nearly double their daily travel time. "]
I don't see how would it double the travel time, Canal St is maybe 5 -10 minutes to walk from Canal St station. Also they have an option to switch to M.
Arti
True, but most people a) don't look at the map and find alternate routes, and b) like to complain. Where are the cheering masses of people who live along the Brighton & West End and work on the east side of Manhattan, who now have a Broadway express and can finally transfer to the uptown 6?
I don't live in Brooklyn, I'm in the Bronx but I'm cheering, I get on the D at BPB and get off at 34th always a seat not only on the way to work but also on the way home I CAN'T WAIT. Loved it the last time too except for those awful pre-GOH R42s. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Complaints always draw more attention in the media that praise does, and if you take the Daily News story to its (il)logical conclusion, the compliners apparently want the MTA to magically create an alternate connection between the Manny B and the Grand Street station, or just continue running trains over the northeast side of the bridge. They might be able to get a judge to issue an injunction to do that -- at least until the first R-68 goes head-first into the East River.
The only positive thing that could come out of this is if the MTA and the city have to explain (once again) why the bridge repairs are needed and outline the design flaw in the Manny B, and some of the politicians actually start thinking about building a replacement tunnel for either the Sixth Ave. and/or Broadway lines.
Ughh, have you seen the Canal street sidewalks? They are packed as it is. With the switch, they will really be clogged since that many more people will be walking down Canal street.
It is only about 5 or 10 minutes, but with the traffic jam of people it takes me almost 15 to 20 minutes from Grand to the Canal street station.
The only way I can make it in 5 to 10 is to jaywalk and walk in the street. Betcha you'll be seeing alot of people walking in Canal street once the switch happens.
Let the MTA at least run the V to Grand, it's a bigger destination than 2nd ave.
[Ughh, have you seen the Canal street sidewalks? They are packed as it is. ]
Solution use parallel streets.
[Let the MTA at least run the V to Grand, it's a bigger destination than 2nd ave. ]
That would make the trip last twice as long as the complainer pointed out, from Bklyn to 34th and then back to Grand, makes no sense. Of course I understand your concern as you will coming from Queens ...
Anyway you should consider J or Z.
Arti
Maybe it should be pointed out that Bowery can be a reasonable alternative and it is just one stop from Canal on the J, M, and Z.
In order to have the V from Queens terminate at Grand St. you would have to get PERFECT ontime performance. Don't forget that you would have to single track from north of Bway-Lafayette to Grand St. Of course, the next train would have to wait for its' leader to come back!
If Ms. Wong has been living near Bay Parkway for 17 years, then she should remember the last time the 6th Ave. side of the bridge was closed. This is the same service plan that was in effect form 1986-89. Instead of having a yellow 'B' and orange 'B', the TA decided to call the Brooklyn half the 'W'. Hopefully though this time the W won't be turning at Queensboro Plaza during middays, as this caused a major bottleneck last time around. Yes it's really going to suck, but unfortunately its something we're all going to have to live with for awhile.
[If Ms. Wong has been living near Bay Parkway for 17 years, she should remember the last time....]
People's memories can be VERY selective.
-----
The basic complaint seems to be: "Transit has no right to sever the Brooklyn-to-Grand-Street link, even if the trains are being evicted from the bridge. Don't bother with the facts, just run the trains whether the tracks are there or not." This, even from the Straphangers Campaign, clearly in order to profit from lots of press conferences.
If they were smart they could easily make the "W" train express in Manhattan and in Brooklyn on the 4th Av. line. At the same time they can send the "D" and "Q" trains over the Manhattan bridge and on to the BMT Braodway line.
BMTJeff
The W will be express. B and D will not exist in Brooklyn. This is to reduce confusion that ensues with a 'northern' B and D service and a 'southern' B and D service. Only the Q will run on the Brighton to Broadway, in both express and local versions (ala the rush-hour service on the 5, 6, and 7). The southern section of the B will be called the W, and there will be no southern D. Otherwise, the plan is identical to the one used the first time the bridge was closed. Additionally, the Grand St station will NOT be closed at all times, there will just be no Brooklyn-bound service.
-Hank
Yes Grand St. won't be closed but a once station shuttle train is no fun then switching to the "F"orever is your only option.
A shuttle train is better than nothing though!
(A shuttle train is better than nothing though!)
No it isn't. Does anyone remember what the shuttle was like in the 1980s? You could smell it from a passing F train!
They should close the station, and use the resources to run the V through to Church and the F express. Chinatown would benefit from more trains at E. Broadway and Delancy, and many 6th Avenue B/D/Q riders could walk to the F.
The TA should just pitch the Bowery station around the corner as the solution. You just take any train from there one stop (just like the shuttle) to Essex for the , and also one stop the other direction for the , the other direction to Brooklyn.
Any ideas about MU assignments for the BMT with this change?
Will the "W" run to Queensboro Plaza or Astoria?
(The TA should just pitch the Bowery station around the corner as the solution. You just take any train from there one stop (just
like the shuttle) to Essex for the , and also one stop the other direction for the Q, Q, or W the other direction to Brooklyn.)
There are many things the TA could do to offset the damage of this change. High on the list is finding some way to reduce the number of spares, expending the V and G to Church, and making the F express (and the F to Stillwell super express).
Since the F passes within walking distance (or a short bus ride) of the D/Q, N and B at different points, a substantial number of people have a choice of which train to take. With the free bus to subway transfer, many of those might choose to take an F express, especially if their destination is 6th Avenue.
Yes Grand St. won't be closed but a once station shuttle train is no fun then switching to the "F"orever is your only option.
Oh and the downtown 6
Not if the Grand St shuttle were extended to West 4th Street. Then you'd have options to transfer for A, C and E trains. What would stop that from being done?
--Mark
Where would you cross it without delaying through service? Maybe run it to the upper level of West 4th, empty out , proceed to the layup track just south of 34th and reverse. Still a nooseance to through service.
avid
There is a scissors crossing both to the north and to the south of W4th St. between both express tracks.
You are right! I stand corrected.
avid
Why even cross it? Run one train on each track in both directions, like the Times Square/ Grand Central Shuttle, timed so they meet each other at Broadway / Lafayette.
--Mark
Actually that sounds like a GREAT idea. Run the shuttle from Grand street to W4th. That would give Grand street riders more choices.
Even though the walk from Canal is a pain I'd rather do the Broadway express and make the change, since it'll still be faster.
Besides the new Canal street bridge station looks really nice.
Besides the new Canal street bridge station looks really nice.
Yeah but it still smells like rotting fish and feces.
wayne
Grand street can smell just as bad.
Take this time to put a second staircase in at the station. Run a short shuttle train less then 10 cars and work on the station.
Good idea. Which stations would the shuttle train run from?
BMTJeff
It is slatted to run now from Broadway/Laffette to Grand St. I assume it will be a short OPTO train but you are gonna have to wait for the summer picks.
Lou From Brooklyn:
That will be a very short shuttle. I think that it is only two stations long if I'm not mistaken.
BMTJeff
Win one, lose one but thousands still whine.Once upon a time the Chrystie St. connection was hooked up and the generations old Southern services were jiggled quite a bit, with West End and most Brighton service shifted to 6th Ave. Many hated it but it was done and oh well. Canal and Broadway sta. still serves Chinatown albeit a few blocks west, the West End service will be just as fast [too bad they won't revert to "T' for it] and even though I'm 2000 miles away I will still apreciate the Broadway express tracks being in service again. Now if they'd only accomodate Sea Beach Fred and route the N that way again. As for connections to other lines there are others available.All a matter of getting used to it.
They should accomodate the "N" formerly #4 train over the Manhattan bridge. Running it through the Whitehall Street tunnel is a stupid idea in my own opinion. In short bring back the Sea Beach Express. Then #4 Sea Beach Fred would be very happy.
BMTJeff
As a Queens resident, I find it funny when someone complains about a Manhattan station being closed. OK. The Canal St. station is few blocks away. I have to drive three miles to get to my station.
And it's not like the TA can do anything about it anyway. The Manhattan Bridge north tracks are being closed by the city DOT.
:) Andrew
The Manhattan bridge contruction is indeed the DOT's job, so perhaps those who are unhappy should complain to the DOT about why it's taking so damn long to fix the bridge, since the MTA has no jurisdiction on the MB.
The complaints are misdirected, but fair. A service plan with half the bridge out for four years stinks. The fact that the current condition also stinks is besides the point. Notice, also, that there will be no public hearing because the service change is "temporary", yet it is now being described as FOUR YEARS.
The timing is delicious. A service improvement for Queens timed to match a service disruption for Brooklyn. Perhaps the LIRR to GCT can be announced the day these other changes are made.
We're sure to be treated to four or five potential borough presidents screaming about the W, having previously ignored the Manhattan Bridge agony for close to 20 years.
There is no service cuts involved here for Brooklyn riders. The trains are simply being rerouted.
These politicians are blowing smoke. One way to call their bluff is to allow them to go to court to get an injunction stopping the reroute plan. Then when the DOT closes the north side (out of control of the MTA), run NOTHING over the bridge.
(These politicians are blowing smoke. One way to call their bluff is t o allow them to go to court to get an injunction stopping the reroute plan. Then when the DOT closes the north side (out of control of the MTA), run NOTHING over the bridge.)
These politicians are just trying to deflect blame in the event that the media latches onto the fact that Brooklyn subway service has stunk since 1982 as a result of the loss of the bridge tracks, and none of these SOBs has bothered to notice. The mistake isn't complaining about the W. The mistake is failing to complain for 18 years. I'd personally like to see some outrage, but I'd like to see some of it directed to these paycheck collecting idiot time servers.
Do we even know where the proposed W train will run or what its proposed route will be? I have seen some articles in the popular newspapers and it made little sense and some articles were contradictory of one another. One infamous artice had the train going from Queens Plaza to Astoria. This is clearly in error unless the author of the article meant Queensborough Plaza which makes some kind of sense. Other articles had the V running through the 63rd street tunnel yet the sevrvice plan proposed by the MTA in the public hearing has the proposed V line going via the 53rd street line. Can someone shed some light on what the proposed route will be? It appears evident from all the ballyhooing that the north side bridge work will have to be done sooner or later. It may as well be done sooner rather than later since if it is done later it will cost far far more money to the taxpayer.
The W will run to Astoria during the rush hours, Queensboro Plaza during the middays. The V is scheduled to run thru 53rd. St, with the E.
Never look to the nwspapers for accurate transit reporting.
This is all part of a LONG TERM problem. Politicians are just noticing it now. Maybe if we did something 19 years ago about it we wouldn't be stuck with half-a-bridge.
BTW, anyone have any idea on the MU assignments for the Southern Division when this re route goes into effect???
Here would be my response to these criticizims if I were a TA official:
Shut the $@#!%@& up. You have no choice. We have no choice. Adjust to the unalterable realities that prevail.
...and follow the statement up by hitting someone in the head with a metal folding chair! Heh heh heh!
Now they are closing Grand street! I'm glad to see the Chinese community is outraged. They should be. Unfortunately because of poor planning in the long run, there really is nothing that can be done to solve the problem.
If they could just run the V to Grand, which I still argue makes a hell of alot more sense than the 2nd ave station.
Grand street is much busier than 2nd ave, and this should be the terminal. I can't believe a switch isn't feasible. In China there's the saying if "there's a will there's a way" then it can be done.
The people of Chinatown, as well as me, won't buy the MTA's hogwash until they start realizing just how important Grand street is.
It's seems to be one of the busiest stations in Manhattan, you can't just shut it down without any service.
You can't turn trains around at Grand street, it's going to be one track shuttle, how would you run mainline trains that way?
Arti
Now they are closing Grand street!
I think SubTalkers would know about a change like that before the Daily Snews does :)! Someone at the paper probably just needs to get their facts straight...
Grand St. is NOT closing. Just no access from Brooklyn. And a few minutes ago I posted the operational reason why the V cannot run to Grand St. The best course of action is a 4 car shuttle on a single track from Bway-Lafayette to Grand. You'll have consistent service on this.
Don't you think they could go walk over to Bowery and take the "M" straight to Sunset Park. While they're at it, couldn't they factor in some kind of mid-day "M" service, or if not, extend it by an hour either end of the rush hours, i.e. run it to 9:30 and start it at 3:30. There are ways around Grand Street's non-existence.
wayne
Took the 7:37 from Rockville Centre this AM. At about 7:35, the announcement was made that our train would be 4 cars short. At 7:37, in rolls a 6 car double decker. The ride was still packed, standees in all the aisles. Arrived Penn Station about 4 minutes late -- par for the course.
Are the LIRR's MU's so paralyzed by the snow that the DM's are being pressed into covering service usually run by the MU's? Yesterday, both my trains were 4 cars short, and there were multiple cancellations during the AM rush on the Babylon line.
My AM trains were also short (two cars) both yesterday and today. I get on at Mineola.
Are the LIRR's MU's so paralyzed by the snow that the DM's are being pressed into covering service usually run by the MU's? Yesterday, both my trains were 4 cars short, and there were multiple cancellations during the AM rush on the Babylon line.
Yesterday evening, I got the 5:23 to Long Beach out of Penn Station, connecting at Jamaica to a Ronkonkoma train that originates at Hunterspoint. To my surprise, and the surprise of many other people judging by their reactions, a diesel pulled into Jamaica bound for Ronkonkoma.
All the M-1's I've seen on the LIRR are going much slower than normal and make this awful burning smell. Snow is probably getting into the motors and causing problems. So why can't the LIRR clear the trackbed of snow?
I have a new invention, something that blows warm air onto the tracks and melts the snow.
I've noticed that burning smell more frequently on the MU's in the past few weeks. Used to smell it all the time on NJT, but never on the LIRR. From what I understand it's the asbestos in the brake pads burning off when the train stops short, but I suspect my explanation falls way short of what's really happening.
Asbestos?? Isn't that stuff banned because it's a carcinogen?
What is going on at the Stamford station? I haven't been there in a long time. the last time I was there they were rearranging the platforms. Has there been any progress lately?
Track 5 is in operation and sometimes MNcRR trains stop on it and have to open BOTH sides.
Hi,
I figure you guys are the ones to ask this...
I always thought the "Cutting Key" was a, well, key, like in lock and key. I saw a picture of one on the JoeKorner Web Site and it looks like a little wrench. How does that work? Do you have to unbolt something on the coupler? Thanks in advance.
Nat
Come up to Shoreline Trolley on New York days and see it in operation. I've gotten a lot of experience using a cutting key on an R9 and Low-V. Even the 17 and R9 when the 9 got stuck.
Soon though Jeff will have it all fixed and we won't need the cutting key and yes it is a wrench for the above cars. I don't know the physical connections, but I put it on a knob on the coupler and PULL!!! I'm sure someone will jump in with the dirty details and some BenGay for me....
1689 got stuck? When? How?
Lou, you've got cutting keys and cutting irons confused.
A cutting key is a little piece of metal, similar to a reverse
key, which fits into the slot on a cutting valve and allows you
to operate the valve. Opening the cutting valve admits air to
the cutting pistons inside the H2 coupler head and unlocks the
couplers, retracts the electric portions, and isolates the brake
pipe. On R-type equipment there is one in each cab (except
married pair blind cabs, of course) and another one directly
underneath accessible from the ground. Lo-Vs only have a cutting
valve down below since you have to be there anyway to make the
cut (disconnect the jumpers).
What you used at the museum in making your copayment to the
sweat equity fund was a cutting iron, aka cutting wrench.
This is a large angled square-head wrench which fits over
a square-headed shaft located at the top of the coupler head.
Turning this shaft 1/4 turn clockwise manually rotates the locking
dogs against spring pressure, allowing the heads to uncouple.
This procedure must be used when there is a problem with the air
cutting system, such as _was_ the case with 1689 and 5466
at the museum, or when you are cutting off dead cars that have
no main reservoir air available. This year, just before Autumn
in NY weekend, we completed repairs and the air cut works
and was in fact used.
Jeff, I got the same problem: referred to a cutting iron as a cutting key.
BTW, Happy New Year!
BMTman
And another benifit of hanging out in the shop was when I saw our own Steve K. with the cutting value all apart.
All the nitty gritty stuff that I & my new friends up there have seen first hand has given me geat pleasure. Jeff, Bill, Lou & Ted, amoung others, have been great teachers. Getting a little handle time on one of the big guys is just iceing on the cake.
Mr t__:^)
I stand correctd (going though Museum withdrawl and working 2nd job weekends now), >G<. Thank Jeff.
The cutting key is used the same way that you would think it would; to make a "cut" away from another car. Cutting keys are used on all SMEE equipment (not R44/46).
To make a cut:
1) Turn the control cutout to the on position and then insert your reverser and place it into the reverse position.
2) You insert your brake handle and place it into the emergency position.
3) You take your cutting key, insert it into the cutting slot which is below and to the left of the master controller, and after inserting, lift it up. (There is also a cutting slot underneath the train on the #1 end but this slot is used for maintenance purposes only).
This should release or "break" the two locks on the two couplers which would allow a cut to be made. If only one lock or no locks "break", an RCI must come to physically break the lock(s) with a hammer(according to TA rules).
4) You then charge the train up.
5) After charging, indication will not come in. Release the brakes, place the controller in the switching position (one point) and press the indication bypass button. The train will move backwards. Move the train no more than one foot. Make sure that any gates/chains between the two cars being cut have been removed before moving.
6) "Dump" the train, normal the reverser and move the cutting key to the down position and take it out. Turn the control cutout to the off position.
The cutting key is only used for the purpose stated above.
And that's how you cut a train. Hope this answered your question.
Thanks very much, as usual you gave a great answer. You should consider putting in for Motor Instructor when the next test comes up. You, Train Dude, Jeff H., Big Ed (and a couple of others) really add a lot to this board. The knowledge that you guys impart on a daily basis is greatly appreciated.
Nat
Oh, another thing, to couple to another train is it the same process in reverse?
Thanks again!
A quick synopsis as to how to couple a SMEE (non R44/46) train:
1) Make proper safety stops(2 cars, 50 feet and 10 feet. 3 cars instead of 2 in inclement conditions) and stop 2 feet away from the standing cars. Place service brake in full service.
2) Inspect the standing cars, make sure that proper handbrakes have been applied. After inspecting, make sure that the two couplers are properly aligned. Also make sure that the coupler pins are retracted and the pin "doors" are closed.
3) Make the add at no more than 1 mph. The train should "dump" automatically upon coupling. If the train does not couple, one of the reasons could be:
3a) One of the air angles have been pulled underneath one of the cars. Push back in the air angle(s) then re-try.
3b)If a cut was made earlier, the cutting key is still activated in the cutting package. Remove the cutting key then re-try.
4) After waiting 17 seconds "penalty time", charge the train. You'll then hear two "boomphs" meaning that the train is now properly coupled. Turn off and on the car body lights and make sure that the lights in the opposite cars blink to verify electrical coupling.
5) Dump the train, take your operating tools and leave. When charging, make sure that the train fully charges up, otherwise the train could "quick charge" (charge itself up).
Thanks Zman, I see that the procedure is different. I would say that making sure that the proper handbrakes have been applied on the standing cars is VERY important. If not, the "boomphs" could become BOOM when you send the standing cars careening into the barn or bumper.
(If you're a "Honeymooners" fan: "You're not boomphin' right Norton").
Schoolcar's over for today,
thanks,
Nat
>>>I would say that making sure that the proper handbrakes have been applied on the standing cars is VERY important.<<<
That is in my opinion the #1 thing to check out on the standing cars.\
>>>(If you're a "Honeymooners" fan: "You're not boomphin' right Norton").<<<
There is no key Ralph. You gotta boomph your way out. :)
Wasn't that the sketch with the trick handcuffs? According to Norton, "There ain't no key, Ralph. You gotta boomph your way out."
That's right Steve...
Nat
Thank you for the wonderful compliment! :)
I try to answer questions using the Train Operator's point of view. Individuals like the Train Dude and Jeff H. know the mechanical and technical points of a subway car wayyyyyyy more than I do. They're a couple of smart cookies and I've gotta hand it to them.
Hopefully when I reach Motor Instructor in a couple years, I'll be able to vastly increase my knowledge of the mechanics/technicalities of a subway car even though the TA has "dumbed" down the title in recent years.
Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed it very much !
Mr t__:^)
Besides Lou from Brooklyn, I've also had some experience using the "cutting key". Yes, it is a wrench, but it is a big-ass one, almost the size of a crow bar. It needs the length since serious leverage is needed to uncouple a set of H2C cars. I busted apart the IRT LowV and R-9 on the last day of operations on "Autumn in New York" weekend at Brandford.
BMTman
You are confusing a cutting key with cutting irons. The cutting irons are the long square wrench. The cutting key is a small slotted wrench with a tit on one side.
Thanks for the clarification, Steve.
The cutting key is a small slotted wrench with a tit on one side.
Freudian slip?
Nope, that's what we call it. We also have cut out cocks and angle cocks. As an RCI, I carried titless keys for the R-44/R-46 (titless keys were illegal except for Car Equipment employees). The nice thing is after about 5 minutes in school, the adults get over their snickering and realize like many other english words, these can have more than one meaning and in any event, as adults, we ignore the sexual connotation - on the job.
Nope, that's what we call it [tit]. We also have cut out cocks and angle cocks. As an RCI, I carried titless keys for the R-44/R-46 (titless keys were illegal except for Car Equipment employees). The
nice thing is after about 5 minutes in school, the adults get over their snickering and realize like many other english words, these can have more than one meaning and in any event, as adults, we ignore the
sexual connotation - on the job
Maybe, but in today's p.c. world all you need is for one hypesensitive person to take offense and scream sexual harrassment, and all Hell breaks loose.
WHOA! LOOK OUT FOR THE TRIP COCK!!!
Pity all the prewar cars are gone - they used to issue butt plugs for the electric braking. Back when those were issued, the TMO's were nicer to ya lest you suggest an alternative to the cab for placement.
Good point Train Dude.
That reminds me: there are many more RR related items that have a sexual connotation. While, Thurston, Lou and I were doing trackwork up at the Shoreline Trolley Museum this fall, we were using a tool called a "Dog's Dick" to extract spikes from hard-to-get-at angles. The name of the tool is self explanitory....;-)
BMTman
Railways being traditionally male-dominated workplaces and
having an overall phallic motif, the origin of these vulgar
terms is not surprising. Of course, hanging around the museum
you've seen plenty of examples of one's [lever-actuated valve]
getting stuck in a dark place and needing some lubricant and
gentle persuasion.
I wouldn't even care to mention the slang term for the trunion bolt but those are just that, slang expressions. On the other hand, if you need a 3/4" ball cock, I believe that is the legitimate name for the device. At one time, george Carlin did a bit about the double meaning of words. One was, "You can prick your finger but you can't finger your ......................... I think that example makes the point best. Many years ago, the TA made a concerted effort to remove gender-based titles like motorman or towerman or foreman from our vocabulary. No such effort was ever made to re-name legitimate parts of a train.
Then please explain the car-borne tripping device that we all learn about in School Car.
That's easy! Your school-car instructor is a weenie.
TA has tried we now have:
car borne tripping devices not trip cocks
straight air and brakepipe angles not angle cocks
we sound our horn not blow it
we no longer lay-up trains we place/take them to the storage yard
Perhaps you do. My cars still have angle cocks and trip cocks. My cleaners still clean the lay-ups and my RCIs pre-inspect them. And heaven help the inspection line car inspectors if they do not blow the horn when performing their inspection. It will be that way until I get a memo from Labor Relations that states that we can no longer refer to those items by their current terms.
Good for you Dude ! Too many folks in this country are paranoid about everything that MIGHT be taken the wrong way by some over sensitive person. Not that you don't have to be aware about stuff that you just don't say or do anymore, but some things are getting carried away, e.g. folks are afraid to say Merry Christmas for fear the person might be .... well you get the point (I'm not talking about offending Jewish folks).
Mr t__:^)
That's when you say Happy Holidays. Also, how about honking the horn?
The most incorrect term is "angle cock". This is derived from
mainline railroads, which still use true angle cocks to isolate
the brake pipe. An angle cock is a large assembly (ok girls,
stop giggling) where the handle is at a 45 degree angle and you
must lift it up to turn it. All trainline isolating cocks
used in NYC transit practice are either straight inline cocks
on the hose or pipe (e.g. gate cars, Hi/Lo Vs) or the same thing
placed further back on the pipe with extender rods (all of the
R-type equipment).
Webster says: "Cock = A faucet, tap, valve, or the like. The act of cocked position of a hammer (firearm). Half cocked."
Webster also says: "Intercourse = Dealings or connections between persons, organizations, or nations, as in common affairs, or business; communication. (the OTHER meaning is listed second !)
Mr t__:^)
Does it say anything about a rooster?:-)
Gack! Do you guys also have to "recycle lunch" when saying those words? (upstate we STILL hump cars if we're not knocking 'em) ...
I think the problem is too many lawyers chasing too little work.
Mr t__:^)
I had a problem with a hobo harrassing passengers on a train a few years back and had to call command center for police. I still call them that from time to time. Never was told I couldn't, despite the memorandums and bulletins call them control. But anyway, I referred to the hobo as a "skell" on the radio. Nothing wrong there, the intent is the same but the desk superintendant decided to chastize me ON the radio for using that word as if I violalated the FCC statutes of the century. I replied to them to the tune of, "I have a financially disadvantaged individual bothering the paying passengers entraining and detraining the train." I'm sure the great Dr Deekman would have agreed, the one who wrote the blue book of customer communications replacing the famed practices of "step lively" and "watch the closing doors". Never the less, I had to give them the traditional phone call upon the arrival at the terminal, in which I was instructed to call the passengers customers and not to be a wiseguy again. I continue to use "trip cocks", "pet cocks", "angle cocks" and the like because I still have my school car books that call them that. We still have those on the lines who refer to the "D" line as DOG, the M as in Madness and the 2 as the beast. The TSSs in school car have a lot less time than those on the road and without the job security of a real pick can be easily brainwashed into thinking that RT5C was a can of cola. One of my favorite Assistant Train Dispatchers retired today after 34 years of service. Another dinosaur title like motorman instructor or assistant chief trainmaster or assistant general superintendant. Change is hard to get used to and some don't like it at all but it is part of the job. I just hope I don't get a suspension for operating a train with "long brakes".
Your little ditty with control center and all this talk about sexual innuendo reminds me of a little incident when I was a C/R.
One weekday I was working the E at around 3pm. As I was closing the doors at 5th Avenue, a male passenger comes up to me and says that there is a homeless man masturbating in the last car in front of some women. I notified control and they told me to check it out when I reached 7th Avenue.
So at 7th Av when I reached the last car, I didn't see any homeless men inside. I asked one of the passengers if they had seen anything and they said no. Control came back on the radio and asked me if I had seen the homeless man masturbating. I said that there was no sign of him, he must have GOT OFF.
It took the dispatcher at control a few minutes to regain his composure.
Re: using "Non-Politically correct" terminology:
Is it true that the couplers between married pairs on R-26's were replaced by drawbars some years ago, as in the later IRT cars? This would prevent someone from making reference to the "Catholic" and "Protestant" married pairs, as they were once known as. (Married pairs with couplers were "Protestant", because they could be "divorced" easily in the yards, while those with drawbars were "Catholic".)
Yes. I remember the R26,R27,R28 cars having H2Cs on the number two truck. In Pitkin when I worked extra, there was a recepticle on the R27/30 car's #2 end for battery jumper cables to run car to car. this way upon cutting the cars for misc inspections, the air car can be safely backed off and still have the low voltage to control the contactors, B2, ETC. I'm not sure that cutting the married pairs was an RTO responsiblity as I never did it personally, maybe Train Dude can elaborate more as to how they made the move (RTO is SUPPOSED to provide all movement of trains).
If that dispatcher had a rim shot button at his disposal, he probably would have pushed it.
[Of course, hanging around the museum
you've seen plenty of examples of one's [lever-actuated valve]
getting stuck in a dark place and needing some lubricant and
gentle persuasion.]
Well, Jeff, I can't speak for myself on this topic. However, I'd have to assume that you have had some personal observations of this problem?...:-)
BMTman
Guys will you behave yourselves? I not sure what Jeff is referring to, but I wonder if mating cars should be classified as copulation? Are H2 Heads considered to be the genitalia of the fleet?
I'd be happy to raise a flock of REDBIRDS at Branford....
RIGHT ON!!!!
-Stef
Is it too late to bring up "mixed marriages"?
Oops! They're certainly aren't any same sex marriages out there, but cars have been divoreced and remarried. Should the cars be classified as Protestant Married Pairs, or something to that effect?
Oh yes, but what about the sex change that made R-32 female 3659 into male 3348? I don't get it sometimes....
-Stef
Now somehow I just knew you were going to interject that device. We did have a little fun with the name that Sunday, especially with the area boys who showed up to help change some ties. I'm now wondering if "snorting" is just a "MOW Bill" term or something used in general by Gandy Dancers ?
To the rest of you ... can you believe that a bunch of guys ENJOYED working on the RxR, digging out & changing ties, lifting rail, spiking those ties, using a jack hammer, getting greasy & oily ? It was satisfing work, especially when you are the guy/gail driving a R-17 or a trolley over those new ties ... no more clickly clack or thump thump. Now if I had to do it every day I don't think it would be so much FUN.
Mr t__:^)
It was fun SUNDAY, sure wasn't too much fun come MONDAY...
(Opps another sexual remark to the DAY AFTER..)
It's funny that you mentioned Gandy Dancers. I haven't heard that job title in a long time.
Many years ago Frankie Laine recorded a record called The Gandy Dancer's Ball on Columbia. I think it was around 1952. It was a very "peppy" song. It did well on the hit parade at the time. I think Frankie was trying to see how many railroads he could mention in the song.
>>>It's funny that you mentioned Gandy Dancers. <<<
What, exactly, is a Gandy Dancer? I've heard the term before but do not recall what it means.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee, Next Fall you'll have to join the track week-end & we'll SHOW you. The BMTman & I saw it first hand one raining Sat. MOW Bill was showing us how to set a spike & it went flying ... we had to DANCE out of the way not to end up with it impailed in our leg.
It's a term for MOW track workers .... may fit us rather inexperienced workers best.
Mr t__:^)
And I have a cock/blowdown/saftey release....
I bet your wife is glad that you have one of those. :)
Tower at 47th/50 Rock has hand written sign in window (funny how messages get put in the tower window when the tower is on automatic) "PLAN #1".
I assume that this is for today Wednesday since on the weekend the hand written sign said "PLAN #4".
Still slow service this morning on the Brighton but I'm not complaining (my fellow pax were).
Now to more important things, what is the status and what plan is HeyPaul on today??
I was in Portland on New Year's Day. Here's what I noticed on the trip up: The foundation is just starting to be prepped for the future transportation center off of exit 2 (I-95/ Maine Turnpike) in Wells. It will be right in front of you once you come to the end of the ramp and pay your toll. (Exit 2: ME 9/ME 109 -Wells/ Sanford.)
In Portland, the new ramps for access to Concord Trailways are now open. You still take exit 5 from I-295 northbound. You now follow the sign for ME route 22 west (which guides you to the Thompson Point Connector Road). On the way in, note the sign which reads "Concord Trailways/ Train Station." Although there are tracks behind the station, there is no hint of any train station yet. You'll snicker about it too. Trust me! :>
By the way, will this Amtrak line service the new bus terminal in Portsmouth, NH? It's served by C&J Trailways and is off of exit 3 of I-95 (NH 33- Greenland/ Stratham). This exit is also for the Pease International Tradeport. Any answers will be appreciated!
There were up to 30 minute delays on Metro-North this morning particularly on the Hudson Line. I don't know what the cause was but either signal problems or frozen switches wouldn't surprise me. Unlike the last big snowstorm that practically cripped Metro-North at least this time the trains are running albeit with delays.
BMTJeff
An arrangement in which three persons(as a married pair and the lover of one or both of the pair) share sexual relations especially while living together. [Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary]
So how about this.
Limited GOH/ II to cheaply expand and enhance the existing fleet as brand spanking new R/143s come on line.
Take US Grade AAA Prime r/42 to be overhauled, to remove both cabs to expand passenger capacity. To refinish the seating color scheme to match that of the R/46s. To replace the brake, power and wiring systems to match that of the R46s. In short, to totally make these choice cars (R/42) 100% compatible with R/46s and thrust between an A/B married pair with draw bars. For the extremely kinky, thrust between the B B of an A B B A foresome yeilding an A B X B A arrangement. The purpose of all of this is to allow 660 ft consist to run again on the "E" & "F" lines, as mentioned in "I Wispered In Her Ear"
Similarly Some R/32s are menage a troised into enough threesomes. These could be done with a less extensive GOH/ II . But again remove the cabs for more passenger capacity, or just one if three car cosists are perceieved to be in the running. This would allow a nine car consist to be created to eventually replace the "A" division cars on the Flushing #7 line and run the "N" to Main St. Let the #7 go to Astoria. If the Tooth fairy allows , extend the platforms on the Flushing line to accomadate 600 ft trains. Otherwise nine cars, but fatter.
One never have seen a better trailer then the R/44 Bs , do one?
I realize there is a segment in the community that abhor equipement missmatches, so I do emphasize true conversion. If the seating could be snatched from scrape track r/44s and installed in the converted r/42s giving lateral and linear seating , even better. I suspect thats asking much to much.
Change is inevitable.
Some States recognize alternate life styles, why not transit consists?
avid
Let the #7 go to Astoria...
Just where do you propose to do routine maintenance/cleaning for the Astoria-Steinway trains?
Times Square, see what Rudy did to all that snow! Just kidding.
Still use the Yard at Flushing Meadow, just less , because of less overall train sets.
avid
Still use the Yard at Flushing Meadow, just less , because of less overall train sets.
Just how are you going to move the trains from the Corona Yard onto the Astoria line during rush hour?
The centre track at Hoyt Avenue-Astoria Boulevard station comes immediately to mind.
wayne
The centre track at Hoyt Avenue-Astoria Boulevard station comes immediately to mind.
Running time between Ditmars and Times Sq is 22 minutes. A two minute layover at each terminal brings the R/T time to 48 minutes. This tranlates to 16 trains for 20 tph service. The NYCT spares average is 17% or 3 trains in this case.
Are you sure you have enough room at Hoyt Ave to service 3 trains and still provide regular passenger service. It seems like a pretty cramped shop. Where do you plan to locate the gantry crane? Are you sure you have clearance under the El for a service pit? Remember, an oversize truck did manage to demolish part of the Hoyt Ave Station a couple of years ago.
20 minute headway night time service requires 3 trains max. Where will you be storing the other 13 trains? BTW is this the same centre track you plan to use for LGA express service?
Thank you . You bring up many very valid points. There was a float barge slip very close to the Vernon Blvd. station and a cut leading to it. Could this possible be the answer we need. If not is there any vacancies in the Sunnyside yards?
Express to LGA.... Forgetaboutit! A branch off the approach to the Hellsgate built over the BQE near the Cemetaries would stir up less NIMBYS . Steve you are an Inspiration. You encourage thought. Do you have any other points not covered yet, we're making real progress here, don't you think.
avid
There was a float barge slip very close to the Vernon Blvd. station and a cut leading to it. Could this possible be the answer...
The LIRR freight line between 48th and 49th Sts (LIC) is gone. It has been turned into a very nice little park.
If not is there any vacancies in the Sunnyside yards?
There are plenty of vacancies in the Sunnyside Yards. One could hide a few 80 MW gas turbine generators there before anybody became aware of their presence. However, every government agency - AMTRAK, LIRR, NYC - feels that they own the air rights and are jealously guarding what they consider to be a financial bonanza.
Do you have any other points not covered yet,
For starters they placed the new Queens Plaza Master Tower in the path of trains from Astoria trains turning onto 23rd St on the way to the Steinway tunnels. Demolishing it and replacing it with a technologically modern facility might be the only tangeable benefit to returning the Astoria Line to the IRT.
The major problem with the plan is that the Steinway Tunnels would be underutilized. The line can accomodate 40 tph, thanks to the tail tracks at Times Sq. Astoria only use would use only 20-24 tph.
Thanks for your transit consist explanation. But I'd rather have the one mentioned by Webster's thank you very much.
Yea
avid
Then there was the C types on the BMT els. Motor cars were of the 1400 series of 1907, the trailer was an 1893 steam coach. They did remove the Manhattan seating arrangemnt on the motor cars and make them bowling alley so the interiors were similar.
Mechanically a sound operation but with all the added hardware..visually..eauty is in the eye of the beholder! Please.
I find this station to be very mysterious. Has anyone ever taken a tour of it? Are there are any photos online to look at?
It's so mysterious, I've never even heard of it. Any information?
It is located at 102nd Street and Atlantic Avenue on the Flatbush Branch of the LIRR. It is an underground station with two tracks and two bay platforms. It appears to be standard length, with beige square tile and purple name tablets. There is a center stairway on each side in the center of the station itself, there is no mezzanine or crossover, but there was no fare control either, so you would cross the street to get to the other side.
I don't have any pictures of it; this description is based on visual observation; I was on a few trains that stopped there many years ago (in the days of the MP-54s).
wayne
Kevin Walsh has some information and pictures of the elevated Woodhaven station on the Rockaway line at Forgotten-NY, and there's a short blurb on Joe Brennan's Abandoned Subway Stations page as well. I'm sure Bob Andersen has more information (while I'm promoting websites, his is LIRR History).
I actually remember when it was on the schedule and trains stopped there. It was only about 2 or 3 trains a day each way. Now, whenever I take the Bklyn line I try to see if I can find it out the window. It is extremely dark and hard to find. A little easier at the railfan window but still hard. There is a switch just W/O it on the E/B side which you can hear and feel which lets you know you're just about there.
By the way, who else remembers the Union Hall Street Station? It was just E/O Jamaica Station on the Main Line and only the Hempstead Line (and possibly the old East Williston Electric trains) stopped there. I assume they closed it because it was too close to Jamaica Station. Small parts of the platforms are still there. I seem to remember a Bellaire Station near the Queens Village Station which Hempstead trains also stopped at. Of course there was no station at Hillside Facility then as there was no facility there.
By the way, I'm 47 years old and I'm talking about the 50's & 60's.
When I was a kid, in Jamaica for a show or shopping I would go up on the platforms and watch trains go by . After a while I or my friends and I would go back down to the street level, head to the Green Bus terminal, It was behind the stores on NEW YORK Blvd , and catch a Q6 to South Ozone Park.
avid
Guy R. Brewer?
-Hank
This was Pre Guy R. Brewer. BTW he was a supporter of the resoration of the Rockaway Branch way back when a subway route was proposed through 1] Baisely Pond Park and
2] Down Van Wyck express way
back when the 4 billion bond issuue of the late sixties was ballyhooing lines to and from everywhere.
avid
I wonder why there have been no tours of this closed stop. It would make sense to visit the station in conjunction with tours of the Rock surface line.
I'm not aware of any sponsored tours of the Rockaway line. The pictures on Forgotten NY were taken on a walking tour coordinated by SubTalkers, and I'm sure no one here can legally get us in to the underground station. I'm still wondering how they got up to the Woodhaven Station, I couldn't find a way and I spent an entire afternoon looking.
I went with Mark W some time ago. We reached the ROW from a embankment in rego park. We walked from there to the Woodhaven El station. There is a side street a few blocks from the station which at the end there is a small embankment you can climb. But be warn, there is a small homeless population up there.
As for the underground station, Mark opened a access hatch under the el station. The old woodhaven stqation is lit by small dim lights.
I dont know if the hatch can be opened now but I wouldnt go down there if I was you.
I've walked frequently on the Rego Park-Metropolitan ave stretch along the tracks (on my way to and from my doctor), but the area S of the Lower Montauk is the biggest pain in the ass to try in the summer. I climbed down to it after it went below street level, walked for about 20 minutes, but I gave after reaching the second or third underpass, and climbed up to it (some Forest Park road). The trees were just too thick, and I was wearing my good clothes. I walked along the street, found Woodhaven, but the only side street within 5 blocks either direction I found with a climbable embankment had a brand new fence (no one had yet cut a hole).
There was also a HILLSIDE station, just west of the Hillside Facility station, a fragment of the W/B platform support is visible, and the station-house is still there; it is somebody's garage. This station was located right where the Flyover joins the main line, just about at the west end of the facility building. The E/B platform I can not see any trace of it, but it may be underneath the Flyover tracks and hard for me to see from that angle.
wayne
Here's a picture of the Hillside station when it was still open.
OK,
The North side (IND) tracks are being closed. I am assuming this is only the section actually ON the bridge and the approaches.
Is it possible, to construct a short (300 - 400') foot connecting tunnel from the south side BMT tracks (just inside the tunnel) to the north side IND tracks? No fancy flyovers or flying junctions a la the IND, but like the BMT crossing at Myrtle/Broadway....)
With this arrangement, it might even be possible to put the "Q" back onto Broadway Express to 57/7, or .... QUEENS?!?!
Ok, the last part was a little far fetched, but I think it is very possible to construct a tunnel, again without fancy flyovers...since I am estimating the tunnel would not have to be longer than 400'. You will have a traffic disruption with the bridge while construction is going on, but I think Heavy Rail should come before Auto traffic. Moses is dead.
If you could bring back the can-do mentality that existed before the end of WW 2 imagine the service you'd have now. Queens IND to the city line, Jam. el to another outlying area, Pelham to Coop City, etc etc. People have been having to take a bus at the end of the train ride for 50 years too long. And add probably an hour a day to a round trip commute very day.
Yes I know, but this idea is reasonable, at least to me....I could go on about fantasies, such as a 4 track tube to replace the Manhattan Bridge, extension of the Bronx Els, the BMT line to Arrorchar, S.I., restoration of express service on the Sea Beach...but those are fantasies.
I still think it can be done, if started now.
How could I forget my pet peeve #1...the long overdue 2nd Ave. subway..maybe even an el but we know that's out. The east side and Queens seem to be hurting most from under-capacity. The rest you mention is interesting. Somebody sent me a clipping on an idea for a frieght rail tunnel under the Narrows..maybe they could do a dual purpose deal and include rail transit in it. Another thing I doubt we'll ever see. Since SI'ers were largely opposed to the Narrows Bridge in the 60's for concern about it bringing excessive development I wonder if that mentality would still oppose direst rail service. Personally I"d hate to see the ferry go out of business..which rail service could do. The ride is a treaure.
Trust me, they would love it. How many times can you let a skipped X1 bus on Hylan run past you? lol
My Queens dreams:
--F all the way to city line on Hillside--with a local and express
--A brand new subway, sharing th L from 8th Ave, then cutting off at Metropolitan Ave, then taking Metropolitan to Union Tpke to the city line---and maybe a branch up Continental through Jewell and 73rd Aves to Alley Pond Park (practically my doorstep!)
7 down Northern Blvd to Little Neck Pkwy
Well, a guy can dream, can't he?
:-) Andrew
Oh! And don't forget a conversion of the Lower Montauk, to share the 60th St tunnel with the N and R and go to Jamaica and maybe beyond.
:-) Andrew
I have spent at least 2 hours studying the 1939-40 World's Fair Approaches Map found in the second edition of "12 Historical NY Street & Transit Maps". I was not aware, until looking at this map, that this World's Fair straddled the Grand Central Parkway. I always thought the Fair was just on the east side of the Parkway. (Did the 1964 Fair also straddle the Parkway?) Almost makes me want to go on a field trip this Spring, map in hand, tracing where things used to be from this Fair at today's Flushing Meadows Park. (Do I smell a field trip, anyone? :)
Anyway, one thing I looked at, and still wonder about, was why the IND World's Fair Railroad was not extended further north, even a little bit. While there was a proposal to add additional stations on this stretch, I don't think a proposal ever arose to extend it north of its original terminal. It ended in the amusement area of the Fair, so it basically took people home, while the IRT/BMT gate along today's Flushing El served to deliver people to the Fair. The IND terminal was only a short distance south of Horace Harding Blvd, and there were plans of the IND Second System to run a line under Horace Harding Blvd into Eastern Queens. These plans were still under consideration in 1939 (and in fact, this rapid transit extension map is also found in the second edition of the street/transit map box). With all the "forward thinking" the IND had (Van Wyck Stub, Roosevelt Ave terminal station built in phase I in anticipation of the line to Rockaway, the S 4th St "station", Utica Ave), it seemed to blow it big time planning this one. This line could have enabled a transfer to the Horace Harding Blvd Line. Perhaps, with this extention being built, there could have even been a Horace Harding Blvd line. There seemed to be enough population in that area at the time to support it.
Yet the map seems to partly indicate, perhaps, why the line was never extended, or why those stations were never built. East of the IND World's Fair ROW was nothing but golf courses (Arrow Brook, Queens Valley), and the area was still very rural. There was really little housing until Horace Harding Blvd, and maybe the IND fathers decided that the axiom that "population follows transportation" would not apply in this case. Also, there was still a LIRR Whitestone Branch to northeast Queens that the line may have had to compete with.
Thoughts anyone?
--Mark
John H. Delaney would have loved this one.
The IND Spur, as constructed, was a temporary terminal designed to take and draw some people from the joint BMT/IRT service operated over the Flushing Line. Remember, as this is KEY, that the IND, IRT and BMT were all seperate, independent traction companies. This is why you had a 4 track IND subway, while a totally rebuilt Dual Contracts El operated...all under and above Fulton Street in Brooklyn. Why? Simple. Draw people away from the wooden BUs and C units, and the freezing cold weather and give them faster, steel subway cars, modern stations in a underground setting. For the same nickel. The el didn't have a chance. The Board of Transportation knew this. You could still hear the ghost of John Hylan laughing when the Fulton El was torn down :(.
Getting back to the IND spur, the line was in competetion only for the 1939-1940 season, because for the 1940-1941 season, the system was unified. That's was you don't see those Blue and Orange WORLDS'S FAIR maps after the first season.
At the time, the IND spur was constructed through a ash dump, which makes up most of Horace Harding and the Van Wyck Expressway. Today, travel south on the Van Wyck from the LIE and you will see the Jamaica Yards on the right, the IND spur line lead took the exact ROW that the Van Wyck today now uses. Fredick Kramers' "BUILDING THE INDEPENDENT SUBWAY" and "THE WORLD'S FAIR" will go into much greater detail what transpired during the 30s.
If the spur was constructed with stops at 69th Road...or Horace Harding...I am certain the IND spur line would exist today. The IND Second Plan failed firstly because of the Depression, and again by the advent of WWII. There are many IND plans for a much more involved system, but this was before unification. Perhaps they still would have expanded after 1940, but not to the extent that was planned way back in the late 20's.
Was Robert Moses a factor during this time? Maybe. Always private auto in favor of transit, it sure was possible for him to negate any chance of extending the spur to Jewel Avenue, or any other route, but then again, the line was built just for the World's Fair. Had a station or two been built in between the Jamaica Yard and The three tracked terminal, then we might still have a fine spur line today.
Your comments are all valid, and when the Worlds Fair railroad was planned in 1935, as you state, the subway operators were competing with one another. But in 1929 the IND Second System also planned, for the first time, routes that did not compete with anyone, and attempted to get new customers first, also "taking away" from the other subway operators. Since the WFRR line was already being built (guaranteed), it wouldn't have taken much more money to extend it to a "worthwhile" terminal like Horace Harding Blvd, which, according to the 1939 Board of Transportation map, had a proposed line to eastern Queens that also didn't compete with any of the other traction companies. So a scenario would have been set up where one of the intersecting lines was completed, and that may have given the other line a better chance of being started (or at least, given a different priority). Something that was "temporary" could have become permanent and been useful with a relatively small expenditure.
And the IND could have achieved its goal of "taking passengers away from the other subway operators".
Fredick Kramers' "BUILDING THE INDEPENDENT SUBWAY" and "THE WORLD'S FAIR" will go into much greater detail what transpired during the 30s.
Yes, I'm aware of those references. But have you seen my History of the Independent Subway?
--Mark
I lived in the Flushing Meadow Park area for 31 years, and have visited the Park many many times. There's isn't a lot left from the 1939-40 Fair; Robert Moses did away with a lot of the remnants for the 1964-65 Fair. One of the more striking remnants was the old ice skating rink that used to straddle Meadow Lake; it was demolished in the mid-1990's, but the foundation remains as a low, white structure. The Unisphere, twin towers and New York State Pavilion building, as well as Terrace on the Park, the Queens Science Museum and Shea Stadium are all remnants of the 1964-65 Fair.
I think Robert Moses had a very big hand in the demolition of the IND spur. If you read "The Power Broker," you'll see that Moses was very against mass transit and wasted no time getting the spur demolished so he could use the cleared ROW for the Van Wyck. Moses' power was very great in 1940 and he had much of city government under his thumb.
All valid points. Moses was transit's death knell. Thank God he didn't surface until much of the IND was constructed, I'd hate to see the result.
Moses also:
* Kept the Subway off the Verrazano Bridge in 1959.
* Drew funding away from Transit and into moronic and ugly projects
(Gowanus Expressway, Parkway system with purposely-built low
bridges to prevent Buses from using the parkways)
Nice guy eh? Next time you wish your subway went further, you know who at least in part to thank.
I have to disagree with you about the parkway system. It was Moses' greatest accomplishment. Ugly & Moronic??? They certainly weren't ugly. Before they were widened and the wooden light poles were replaced the parkways were absolutely beautiful. Buses & trucks can use the expressways. Even now the parkways are still pretty, especially in the fall with the changing colors and the winter with its snow. Its just less beautiful with metal light poles, school buses, pickup trucks, airport vans, and 3-4 lanes. Take the Northern State E/O the Wantagh Pkway to see how nice Moses' ideas were. Now the LIE is ugly!!!
And the IND wouldn't have gone East of Queens anyway!!
THANK G-D FOR ROBT. MOSES!!!
In fact, many of Moses Parkways were never meant to handle rush hour commutation (Taconic Parkway comes to mind).
I, too, liked those wooden style light poles you're talking about. The Belt still has a few of them, widely scattered, most on exit/entrance ramps.
In 30 or 40 years, people will be talking about how the Eisenhower Interstate System wasn't built to "today's" standards.
--Mark
The wooden light poles can be found a in a number of parkways in downsate New York:
The Ocean Parkway, where there are any lights at all.
The Wantagh Parkway, south of the Southern State Parkway
The Palasades Parkway, at Bear Mountain
and a few state parks.
:-) Andrew
In 30 or 40 years, people will be talking about how the Eisenhower Interstate System wasn't built to "today's" standards.
Well, it's always nice to hope that in 30 or 40 years from now, "today's" standards will involve two steel rails!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Or one concrete rail
Mark - this may be a nit - but nonetheless - To the best of my knowledge, the Taconic was not one of Moses projects. There was some sort of East Hudson Parkway Authority and I believe they are the ones responsible for the Taconic.
As for who ran the East Hudson Parkway Authority - I think the Roosevelt family had something to do with it. I read up on this about a year ago and just don't remember seeing anything involving Moses name with regard to the Taconic.
Some trivia for those of you familiar with the Taconic - the original name of the Taconic was the "Eastern State Parkway." That was around the '30's into the '40's when it took on the name of the Bronx River Parkway Extension (in part.) In the late '40's the road was renamed the Taconic State Parkway.
Sorry for the slight diversion here - but - I live near the Taconic and happen to know a little about it.
Actually, the Taconic was one road Moses tried to block! From Steve Anderson's NYC Roads page, the Bronx River Parkway Extension was created by the Taconic State Park Commission, headed by FDR. Roosevelt had to get his funding from Moses' State Parks Council, who wanted more money for his pet projects on Long Island! Remember, Moses loved Long Island and probably couldn't care less about what happened north of the City. Jurisdiction was transferred from Westchester County to the East Hudson Parkway Authority in 1961.
Ahh, you learn something new every day. Thanks for the quick history lesson!
--Mark
I've read THE POWER BROKER, and Robert Moses, even though he was a great architect and builder of NYC and LI's highways, parkways, and bridges, was A RACIST. The word POWER has many meanings, and not all are positive.
Whether or not Robert Moses was a racist is very debatable. I too, personally believe he was flamingly racist but some other people (parkway-lovers) would say otherwise. The undisputable fact is that within the city of New York, Moses routed his freeways through Minority areas on purpose. Much of this is due to the fact that minority areas had next to no political clout and thus tearing down their houses to build elevated highways was a lot easier. Take, for instance, the routing of the BQE - the way it jogs east after crossing the LIE before splitting and going around the Cemetery. That adds a couple miles to the BQE but also made it hella cheaper to build. A lot of this was probably for economic reasons (no lawsuits, less property compensation cost) but one wonders how much was purely racially motivated.
Much of this is due to the fact that minority areas had next to no political clout and thus tearing down their houses to build elevated highways was a lot easier.
That is obviously true, but it has nothing to do with racism. It has to do with money. Rich people can stop things, and Moses was stoppable. The poor did not yet see the power of lawsuits and we didn't have those Pro-NIMBY laws.
Moses wanted to run the BQE through downtown Brooklyn along Hicks Street just like Red Hook. Rich Brooklyn Heights people had the power to force Moses to build along the bluff and build a nice promenade, Red Hook had no power. It had squat to do with racism. I'm sick of how people always assume it's racism when poor people are involved. That, in itself is racism, to assume that the poor have to be of one of the "inferior" races.
It's obvious that "minority" in this country refers to a minority of finances, not population. There is the mythic "race" of Hispanics, which is a underhanded way of creating a minority consisting partially of "white" people. And people from Spain, the original Spanish speaking county, aren't even Hispanic. A century ago, Irish, Italians and Jews were considered minorities, that's not true anymore, even though there are fewer Jews than many other ethnic groups. Just wait, when immigration from China dies down, Asians will no longer be minorities.
I look forward to all of your cries of racism. Remember, only politically correct people aren't racists.
Reading Caro's section on Moses' construction of the Northern State Parkway confirms his bias was more against the poor in general than against and specific poor racial group. The rich North Shore Long Islanders were able to shift the parkway south and through then farmland owned by poorer farmers in eastern Nassau and western Suffolk counties, who were almost uniformly white.
That's not to say Moses didn't have any racial prejudice in him, just that Social Economic Status mattered more then skin color or nationality as to whether or not ol' Bob was going to plow a highway through your neighborhood.
I didn't know that about him. I DID know that he was a SOB for putting the Auto ahead of Rapid Transit.
Thank God he didn't surface until much of the IND was constructed,
Moses first came into NYC government through fellow Republican John Mitchel, while Mayor Gaynor was recovering from an assassination attempt circa 1911. Mitchel was President of the Board of Aldermen and Acting Mayor during Gaynor's absence. Gaynor recovered and booted Moses out. Gaynor also negotiated and signed the Dual Contracts.
All valid points. Moses was transit's death knell. Thank God he didn't surface until much of the IND was constructed, I'd hate to see the result.
Wrong. All INVALID points.
Moses also:
* Kept the Subway off the Verrazano Bridge in 1959.
Typical Revisionism. In order for the subway to run over the bridge, the approaches would have to be much longer than they already are and the bridge deck stronger. All would cost $$$ that STILL isn't worth it for a SI connection.
* Drew funding away from Transit and into moronic and ugly projects
(Gowanus Expressway, Parkway system with purposely-built low
bridges to prevent Buses from using the parkways)
How do you expect vehicles to get around anyway? Subway tunnels?
The reasons for keeping busses off the parkways was because they weren't designed for mass transit, they were for scenic family drives.
Nice guy eh? Next time you wish your subway went further, you know who at least in part to thank.
Bullshit. Ignoring subways was the "vogue" of the time. Politicians could have stopped him and eventually they did. It's quite clear that this is what the prevailing mood wanted.
Typical Revisionism. In order for the subway to run over the bridge, the approaches would have to be much longer than they already are and the bridge deck stronger. All would cost $$$ that STILL isn't worth it for a SI connection.
Wasn't there a plan for a bridge that could have accommodated transit that Moses rejected? Or wasn't the bridge supposed to be a tunnel at one time?
--Mark
Your response is short-sighted.
Moses was a staunch opponent of mass transit. He believed that mass transit projects were filled with "pork", despite the fact that his own bridge and tunnel projects were similarly filled with patronage. If not for Moses, we would have a much more comprehensive and useful mass transit system than the one that currently exists. Its no coincidence that NYC's mass transit system has not had one new line built since 1940, when Moses' power was reaching its zenith, while hundreds of miles of subways were built before then.
It was Moses who was directly responsible for the creation of the Transit Authority in 1953. Moses wanted state and city funds to be available to him more readily (despite the fact that his TBTA had more money available to it because of bond issues), so he convinced Mayor Impelliteri and the state legislature to remove the mass transit system from the auspice of the Board of Transportation and give it to a "Transit Authority" which would have to be self-sustaining, like all other authorities. Moses KNEW this plan would fail, because the costs to run the mass transit would far outstrip turnstile receipts (tokens were introduced because of Moses' actions; up until 1953, when the fare went to 15 cents on the subway, turnstiles accepted nickels and dimes. When the fare was increased, a token was necessary because the turnstiles couldn't accept nickels AND dimes in combination.) Still, he wanted the subways and buses to be removed from the city and state budgets to the extent possible. He obviously succeeded.
Moses also considered the Verrazano to be his crowning achievement, and not only kept trains off it, he kept pedestrian walkways off it as well. The Verrazano was the first bridge built in the city to not accomodate pedestrians. Moses also killed off the Bay Ridge-St. George tunnel project, which had been on and off the books up until then. (Moses hated all tunnels, subway and vehicular - he was adamantly against the construction of the Queens-Midtown Tunnel and the Brooklyn-Battery tunnel, wanting a Brooklyn-Battery Bridge instead.)
Moses also pushed for the demolition of the Third Avenue El in Manhattan and the Fifth Avenue El in Brooklyn. Both of these railways were eating up City money, which he wanted, and the Fifth Avenue El's stanchions would come in handy for the Gowanus extension to the BBT. The result? Ride the Lex IRT sometime.
No one ever "stopped" Robert Moses. He was in power for 44 years and built almost every project he wanted because of his control over the city and state legislature. He was finally thrown out at the age of 79 by Rockefeller, who created the MTA with Ronan, and stripped Moses of his control of the TBTA. True, Moses built a lot of valuable highways and tunnels, but ignored the future needs of the city - the expenses involved in the upkeep of his structures and the need for mass transit.
Moses hated all tunnels, subway and vehicular - he was adamantly against the construction of the Queens-Midtown Tunnel and the Brooklyn-Battery tunnel, wanting a Brooklyn-Battery Bridge instead
A quote out of a book i own, Divided Highways (a very fair and accurate account of the construction of highways in America.
The Automobile should not be resorted to a tunnel - a great tiled bathroom.
My primary argument was that Moses could and eventually was stopped. However, no governor until Rockefeller wanted to do so. Governors are elected, this was obviously what people wanted. Every one of Moses' projects was approved by the City Council, which Moses had no power over.
Since the fare was going to go up to 15 cents at some point, tokens were inevitable.
The Third Avenue El was far from the jurisdiction of Moses, even the Lower Manhattan Expressway had plans to pass over the Third Avenue El.
The Verazanno Bridge was built without walkways partially because of its length but mainly because of jumpers. Either way, the bridge still has provisions for them, look at the towers.
As for the Fifth Avenue El, it was obsolete beginning in 1915.
Thank you. =)
Moses did indeed prevent the subways from using the bridge. 1959 plans had the second lower level as a future addition, with the same level of support, if not more so for the lower deck. It went for auto traffic in 1969. The approaches were already constructed with ample space either in the median or shoulder areas, which continue from the Brooklyn ancorage to 67th Street. Sea Beach trains could have easily taken advantage of this connection. As far as it not being worth it, there are 675,000 Staten Island residents who would disagree with you, and now must rely on diesel buses as the only halfway decent Manhattan connection, except for the ferry.
LaGuardia at the time of Moses' infiltration (1933 on) was steadfastly against most of Moses' lame brained ideas, but he was powerless to stop him. It took F.D.R., a sitting PRESIDENT...to kill the proposed Battery-Brooklyn bridge, which would have displaced many more people in Red Hook and Carroll Gardens than the present Tunnel structure. To say nothing of the blight that would have came on the Manhattan side!!
As far as how I expect cars to get around, I frankly DON'T. Especially in New York City, at 9 or 10 million people. In a city that swelled to over 9 million (or more) in the first part of the century, fast, efficent mass transit should have always been a priority. The thinking of "how vehicles should get around" clearly demonstrates to me that your priority would be an auto-based system of transport, like in Los Angeles, Phoenix, Houston, Dallas, or many other cities. The result? Smog, pollution levels beyond compare, sky high registration taxes and inspection costs. Again, in a city as large and vast in population as NYC, an auto-based system cannot reasonably handle traffic loads, unless you want to sit in a freeway for 3 hours to travel 10 miles, a la Los Angeles. I know, I have lived there. I'd take a 4 train uptown from the Battery to Grand Central any day over a cab. So would most rational people. Unless they love to look at the beautiful Gowanus elevated shitroad of a "interstate" highway.
There are only about 450K people in Staten Island, not anywhere near 675K.
The width of the Bridge approaches is not an issue, it is the LENGTH. The bridge approaches would have to be much less steeper for a subway line.
Finally, if you think that a city transportation model can be based exclusively on mass transit, then you're living in a dream world. How do you expect people to get between outlying parts of the region (like from Staten Island to anywhere except Manhattan?), or for essential goods to be delivered? It is wrong to expect a functional city to be based entirely on auto-transport. It is even more wrong to expect the opposite.
1. What Census figures are you quoting from?
2. If you will go back to my statement, I said the bridge feeds into the sub-grade auto highway. I never said anything about the WIDTH of the bridge. At nearly two miles from the Brooklyn anchorage (approx. 101st Street to 67th Street), a line could have been put in. I acknowledge the present grade would have to be modified, but there are many sections of the subway (BMT West End El - 4th Avenue, BMT Lawrence Street into DeKalb) that have almost equal (5-6%) grades. Again, the constuction of the present I-278 in southern Brooklyn affords the option of at least a 2 track standard gauge line, either in the median (with lanes shifted away toward shoulders), or via the shoulders of the sub grade floor.
3. New York City is the only major city in the U.S. without a direct rail connection. I expect goods to be transported via RAIL, like most every other city world wide. That was the purpose of the PA's creation in 1921, for a cross harbor link. They saw the need for such a link even 80 years ago. If that link would have been completed, you would have slashed to truck reqirements for shipping in this city, if not nearly eliminate them entirely.
I am not saying to deny auto transport. I AM saying that MASS TRANIST should have been a priority instead of highways and parkways designed to inhibit lower income people from using them.
Robert Moses did a lot of bad for public transit. BUT he was absolutely necessary for the development of the highway infastructure we have today. Nearly every major highway in downstate New York had his mark on it.
I say we need both our roads and our public transit. One shouldn't have to cancel out the other---Now where funding should come from, I just don't know.
At any rate, I'd take Moses' can-do attitude over today's pass-a-bill-then-a-referendum-and-in-ten-years-maybe,maybe,maybe-we'll-think-about-building-something attitude this country has had since the fifties or so---for both mass transit and highways.
(There are highway gaps in and arround New York too. No bridge over the LI Sound. I-95 is unfinnished through New Jersey.)
I-95 is unfinnished through New Jersey.)
By design. NIMBYs fought the construction of the complete I-95 through Central Jersey. That's why I-95 only has a small part in Central Jersey, and you have to loop back w/ 295 & 195 to get back to the continuation of I-95, around exit 8 on the NJ Turnpike.
NIMBYs also fought I-95 going straight thru into Boston, which is why it doesn't today.
The NY Times just had an article on this on December 29th, 2000.
--Mark
I-95 is unfinnished through New Jersey.)
By design. NIMBYs fought the construction of the complete I-95 through Central Jersey. That's why I-95 only has a small part in Central Jersey, and you have to loop back w/ 295 & 195 to get back to the continuation of I-95, around exit 8 on the NJ Turnpike.
NIMBYs also fought I-95 going straight thru into Boston, which is why it doesn't today.
The NY Times just had an article on this on December 29th, 2000.
--Mark
I think Robert Moses had a very big hand in the demolition of the IND spur. If you read "The Power Broker," you'll see that Moses was very against mass transit and wasted no time getting the spur
demolished so he could use the cleared ROW for the Van Wyck. Moses' power was very great in 1940 and he had much of city government under his thumb.
Except I don't believe that the city ever intended the spur to be anything but temporary.
...he could use the cleared ROW for the Van Wyck...
The Van Wyck Expressway was built after WWII as an approach road to Idlewild. The section between Queens and Northern Blvds - the one occupied by the Worlds Fair IND - wasn't built until 1962 as part of the 1964 Worlds Fair.
One of the more striking remnants was the old ice skating rink that used to straddle Meadow Lake; it was demolished in the mid-1990's
Are you referring to the Aquacade from the 1939 fair? That was a swimming pool not an ice skating rink. The ice skating rink was located in the still standing NYC Building from the 1939 fair.
There's isn't a lot left from the 1939-40 Fair;
Actually, I miss the Nike missle base they put in during the Korean War.
Shea Stadium wasn't part of the World's Fair; it was built by the city to serve as the home of the Mets and Jets. Bill Shea played a key role in bringing National League baseball back to New York; hence, the stadium bears his name. Casey Stengel was asked if he thought the Mets might get some runoff from the fair, to which he replied, "If there are any people at the fair, it will be because my ballpark is too crowded."
The other remnants you mentioned were intended to be retained permanently, along with the Singer Bowl and US pavilion. I visited the park in October for the first time since we visited the fair in 1965, and had Wayne (Mr. Slant R-40, who was with me) photograph me at about the same spot my father photographed my sister and me in '65, with the Unisphere and NY state towers in the background. It turned out to be an interesting picture; we were there in the morning and it was foggy. It's a backlit shot, more or less. Thanks, Wayne!
I want to visit the park again the next time I'm in the city.
I wish that it was done. If you would have had a station except the terminal on the spur line, I am certain that the line would remain intact.
The IND Spur line was an afterthought. When planning for the World's Fair began in earnest in 1935, the Jamaica Yards were already planned and constucted/being constructed. If there were not, I highly doubt you would have seen a spur line from Queens Blvd.
You do have an informative section on the IND, however the sources you list I have been very familiar with.
Why were the platforms not uniform in 660'?
I have some other questions, but BMT related
I have a video of the 1939-40 World's Fair which shows many of the attractions and exhibits. While there is no subway footage (bummer), it does mention that there was consideration for keeping the fair as a permanent fixture in Flushing Meadow Park. WWII put an end to this plan; however, one must wonder if the IND spur line would have been kept had the fair been kept on permanently.
A VERY Good chance it would have!!!
I cannot see to it that if the Fair structures were still intact, that the BoT would think about razing the line. Of course, a mid point station would have assured spur line survival.
I would have love to have a film clip of some prewar R MUs signed for "GG" or "E" service approaching the 69th Road overpass =(
I have an apartment on the 16th hole of the ArrowBrook golf
course :) That section between Horace Harding, Union Tpke,
Main Street and Flushing Meadows was rapidly developed after
WW II to house returning GIs and their baby-booming families.
There is a little bridge over the GCP which connects the
main body of Flushing Meadows Park with the Corona annex.
The Hall of Science and the Queens Zoo are located there, to
the west of the GCP.
why were some R17s turned into redbirds?
were any other non goh cars turned into redbirds?
Or were they GOHed?
why were some R17s turned into redbirds?
were any other non goh cars turned into redbirds?
were these cars Goh
What cartypes were turned into greenbirds?
Also what numbers?
Were they GOH cars?
Many R-10s and some R-26s became greenbirds. The Green was supposed to mean "limited overhaul".
--Mark
Were there any others?
(R21 7075 was one)
lincoln:
There was an R-17 that was a "greenbird" and the number was 6677.
BMTJeff
I remember about 10 R33s numbered 88xx's that were green.
10 R33's and about 120 Westinghouse R10's were painted this color in 1985-86.
Dumb question: Why were the R10's given this limited overhaul when the R16 was a newer car, one that didn't use that cumbersome pneumatic door system? I know the R16 was in awful shape, but so was the R10 at this time.
The R-10s were more reliable than the R-16s. That's part of the reason why the R-10s outlasted the R-16s.
--Mark
I refer to the R-10s as Thunderbirds, for obvious reasons.
is there a list of the R26s and R33s that got this overhaul?
No R-26s got that kind of overhaul -- they went right to GOH and were painted "Redbird" red.
Ten or so R-33s and one R-21 (7075, I think) were painted forest green, same color as the R-10s. Unlike the R-10s, however, these cars did not receive an overhaul -- it was just a paint job. The R-21 was subsequently retired, and the R-33s were subsequently GOHd and painted "Redbird" red.
David
You also forgot about R17 6677 she was also painted "Forest Green".
Thanks...I had a dim recollection of a R-17 being repainted but wasn't sure enough to post it.
David
Fourteen IRT cars were painted in that dark green paint scheme.
R-33 8842-3, 8846-7, 8848-9, 8856-7, 8860-1, 8862-3
R-17 6677
R-21 7075
Larry, RedbirdR33
howmany Non Goh cars were painted in Fox Red?
A handful of R-17s including 6688 were painted Redbird red. IIRC they filled in for the Flushing R-33 singles while they were out for GOH.
That is correct. 6688 put in some duty in most of the system, so almost anywhy we have her signed up was correct at some point in her stay there, e.g. Bronx #5, Flushing Line, Times Sq Shuttle, etc.
Mr rt__:^)
For the record, how many coats of paint were stripped off 6688? I'd have to say at least four: Fox red, white, silver/blue, and maroon unless it was repainted before getting the silver-and-blue treatment.
It appears the car was painted silver/blue twice.
-Stef
how could you tell that?
could it have been a thick layer of paint instead?
One layer of the silver/blue was clean, and then under it was all the graffitti. Just remember that 6688 spent almost of all her time on the shuttle from 1976-87, and these were among the cleanest in the system. They remained the cleanest into the 1980s when they were painted white and sported a blue interior.
-Stef
That makes sense, as most if not all IRT cars got a second silver-and-blue treatment in 1979-80. If 6688 did in fact spend all that time on the shuttle, it no doubt would have stayed clean. I rode on the shuttle during 1978-79-80 and couldn't help but notice how clean its cars were. I may have even ridden on 6688 back then without realizing it.
Did it have a coat of bright red paint beneath the silver and blue, or did it go directly to the original maroon?
Maroon was under the blue/silver.
-Stef
I may be mistaken, but I'm really unsure if 6688 actually showed up on the Flushing Line. I could swear I've seen a picture of it at an ERA meeting of a #7 train leaving Shea Stadium, but that might have been in fact 6618, with R-36s. Redbird's post puts some question into that.
The car was probably in continuous shuttle service from 1976 to 1987, a long assignment.
-Stef
another thing, i saw a picture of an R12/14 in Fox red. Why would this have been done?
I think its in the scrapyards section.
Many LAHT cars which weren't already red were painted red before the silver-and-blue scheme took hold.
Here's an example:
Look at the right edge of the photo. See the red poking through the green on 8724?
another thing, i saw a picture of an R12/14 in Fox red. Why would this have been done?
I think its photo is in the scrapyards section.
Someone in RTO/DCE was either using the car as a classroom, or perhaps it was a shed to store materials.
-Stef
Wait a minute. Where did you find this thread? It appears to be dated January, which should not even be on this board!
- Lyle Goldman
January 2001 at that. Notice the incredible difference in message #.
I suppose he searched for it, and the old messages still exist, but just aren't on the list?
Yeah, but you were never able to respond to archieved posts, this is truly strange. I vaguely even remember this thread. Very strage because it does say it's a thread from January????? How'd he do that?
That's all I'm asking!
- Lyle Goldman
Posted by R30 on Wed May 29 15:36:37 2002, in response to Re: Greenbirds, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Wed Jan 3 16:33:09 2001
I didn't notice it until someone mentioned it, but if you click on "first in thread" look where it brings you!
R10 #2974 was a Greenbird, and I miss them all. There were many others. Somewhere (I think William A Padron has it) there is a list of them all.
wayne
Paging Mister R-10, paging Mister R-10!
I got to have a B.M.T. Subway Sandwich today for the very first time.
The associate on duty told me that the B.M.T. stood for Boston Mass Transit. The home office of Subway is in Milford CT, and the CEO at the time of the sandwich's invention was a transit fan of the Boston system.
I have been thinking all of this time that it was named after New York's BMT, which we all know stood for Brooklyn Manhattan Transit.
What do you think of this explanation?
A cop out.
As every rapid transit fan knows there is only one BMT. And that one was based in Kings County, Long Island.
BMTman
Well, you reeled my in. The Boston line doesn't have a Sea Beach on it, so they are a pack of frauds. Come to think of it, none of the Boston lines I rode could compare to the Brighton or West End either. Now the 4th Avenue Local? Well, let's leave them out of this equation.
Well, you reeled me in. The Boston line doesn't have a Sea Beach on it, so they are a pack of frauds. Come to think of it, none of the Boston lines I rode could compare to the Brighton or West End either. Now the 4th Avenue Local? Well, let's leave them out of this equation.
Hey, Fred, maybe Subway should offer a Sea Beach sandwich (wrapped in paper with a big numeral 4, of course), along with a West End and Brighton. They could even number them on their menu in accordance with the original BMT number code.
My daughter's boyfriend has a sister who works in a Subway Sandwich Shop. I will make such a proposal. Let me see, a Sea Beach sandwich should have what? Of course, lettuce and tomatoes, Italian oil for dressing, and a combo of turkey, salami and ham. Yea! That sounds about as exciting as the LA Clippers. Let me think this one out awhile longer. A Sea Beach sandwich should be unique.
It should have a Nathan's hot dog from Coney Island, Genoa salami from Bensonhurst, kasha varnishkes from Borough Park, fried rice from Sunset Park, shawarma from Pacific Street, and sun-dried tomatoes from Brooklyn Heights.
What would a West End sandwich have, then?
Western Omlet with Italian sausage and onyooooooons!
avid
My stomach goes into convulsions just thinking about it. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Same thing as the Sea Beach, except the Sea Beach is open-faced.
So, along that vein, a Brighton sandwich would be part open-faced, right?
Right, with slanted ends cut into the bread.
(Slant ends not available on the Extra Large sandwich).
That was the slant R-40 sandwich, actually. But it would apply to the Brighton as long as the slants are still running there.:-)
Which reminds me of the Franklin Shuttle sandwich.
It has the freshest ingredients, but it's only half the size it used to be.
We might as well round out the Southern Division with a Culver sandwich. What would it have? Oops, almost forgot about the 4th Ave. What about it?
The Culver sandwich was once one of the originals and one of the big sellers. Starting in 1954, half of the sandwich was replaced with bland ingredients and the other half was left to spoil.
LOL! Good one, Paul...:-)
BMT (sandwich) man
I was at a Subway restaurant in Scott City, KS the other night and had my usual Subway Club. You don't know how close I came to calling it an IND just to see how the folks behind the counter would react. All the usual maps, photos, and articles were up on the walls.
The Jamaica ELL sandwich was a special on fridays.
avid
I hear there's a Culver Sandwich in the works...but it will be sold at McDonald's.
I've BS'ed with several Subway sandwich employees and advised them of the TRUE origins of BMT. Some were interested some couldn't care less..in NoDak and Montana that's another language! I always order the BMT, no only for nostalgia but a seemingly good Italian combination that I enjoy.If you don't expect gourmet Italian food.
That wouldn't explain, then, the large number of NYC subway murals and photos on the wall of every Subway Sandwich Shop. Maybe the associate was giving you "IRT": Idiotic Revisionist Tripe.
I tried to explain the BMT, IRT, IND history, and 1940 unification, but he was firm on his Boston Mass Transit story. He also claimed that no one that he could remember had ever tried to order an IRT in any of the locations where he had worked. I got the impression that he was not from here in PA, but I never did ask him where he originally came from.
Just tell him the Subway chain was founded in Bridgeport, CT in 1965, the trademark for "B.M.T." sandwich was register from Bridgeport in 1975 and never had anything to do with Boston.
Besides, there's the common sense test. Nobody in Boston ever referred to the subway there as the "BMT" so why would you trademark something with a reference noone would understand?
Next this guy will tell you that they have to turn the bread upside down to make sandwiches for left-handed people ;-)
This was my first time buying at a Subway (I did like the B.M.T.). This one was in a food court at the Gettysburg Outlet Mall. There are no subway maps or signs in evidence on the walls, but it was a food court.
I did know from previous threads the origin of B.M.T. in Subway.
I tried to give him a brief history of the BMT etc, but he wanted to know if New York's BMT went to CT. He was very preoccupied with Milford Ct.
I got the impression that no matter what I said, he felt his story was better than mine. I guess his story was the first he heard, and the one that he will always remember, right or wrong!
...he wanted to know if New York's BMT went to CT. He was very preoccupied with Milford Ct...
Did you ask him if Boston's "BMT" does?
Never mind; he may have said yes :)
I always go for a Subway Club myself, which as far as I'm concerned could be renamed the IND. Most of the Subway restaurants in food courts don't have maps or newspaper accounts of the 1904 opening; only the sit-down joints do.
We have another Subway in town that I have never been in.
It is a sit-down, so I'll have to get my next B.M.T. there!
Check out the newspaper accounts of the opening of the Contract One segment in 1904. Not to mention the useful information for passengers.
It was funny to see NYC subway maps in a Subway in Montréal this past summer... I would have figured they would have had maps of the local system instead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would think "subway" has a decidedly NY connotation anywhere north of the RIo Grande.
Try an experiment (those of you who don't live within snorting distance of NY): Ask a friend: "Can you guess where we're thinking of going on vacation? My wife/kid/friend has never been on the subway."
See if they guess anyplace other than NYC, or if it takes them long to guess.
Just as I would know where you were going if you said: "On this vacation, I'm going to get in plenty of rides on the Underground."
You should see the looks I get when I suggest there ought to be IND and IRT sandwiches. Usually, it's along the lines of, "Huh?" It's not surprising when you consider all the people I've met who have never been to New York.
I'm glad that I never asked him that question!
This was a food court Subway so the usual Maps and pictures were not part of the decor. I should have thought about that and reminded him.
Tell him the BMT stands for "Bromo-seltzer Must Take."
MP? I like that. I was never a fan of the IRT anyway. To me the New York Subway was the BMT. To me the IRT was the Bronx, way out of it. The BMT was Brooklyn and Manhattan and Queens.
Since Boston's system is the Metropolitan Boston Transit Authority, and Subway sandwich shops are wallpapered with old New York City subway maps and photos of New York landmarks, I'd have to say that they can logically only be referring to Baltimore Mass Transit :)
Maybe we should revive that old thread from a few months ago about new names for Subway Sandwiches (R-10s, R-44s, etc).
Oh, no... :)
Or, we could come up with a new set based on Boston, since that's presumably what Subway's focus is. The Green Line: five pounds of sardines, served on a dinner roll ;)
Some of those were pretty hilarious, IIRC.
[Since Boston's system is the Metropolitan Boston Transit Authority....]
But it isn't; MBTA is the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority.
And........isn't the usual moniker for the Boston system "The T"?
Oops... that's right. I've been brainwashed into thinking that "M" always has to stand for "Metropolitan" when referring to transit :).
"T" refers to the subway, MBTA commuter rail, and ferries; "MBTA" is the T plus buses.
I think he was funning you.
Officially, "BMT" subway sandwich stands for "Big Meat Taste." But it's an obvious allusion to New York's BMT. Someone could correct me on this, but I don't believe Boston ever used "BMT." Before it was MBTA it was MTA, and before that I believe it was Boston Elevated Railroad, or BERR.
I think you're right on all counts, Paul.
BMTman (not the sandwich)
But Wait. Doug! (Not the Sandwich), There's More.
B.M.T. (with the periods) was registered by "Doctor's Associates" (the legal name of Subway) in 1975 at Bridgeport, CT (not Boston, MA) for the sandwich of the same name.
For the easily amused, two mini-facts. The Real BMT (ours) usually (not always) abbreviated themselves B.-M.T., keeping the hyphen, but I'm not sure whether it was to hook together "Brooklyn" and "Manhattan" in the name or keep the boroughs at arm's length (I prefer the latter).
Someone actually registered "B.M.T. LINES" as a trademark for a line of clothing in 1988 but the trademark was cancelled in 1995. It looked like this:
I think I like ours better ;-)
Someone actually registered "B.M.T. LINES" as a trademark for a line of clothing in 1988 but the trademark was cancelled in 1995
That must be Rat Race Design's "Bomb Mass Transit" line of graffiti-promoting shirts I found a while ago.
A ticket?? I can hear it now: "L train arriving at track 48 at 7:12 PM, departure time, 7:12:30..."
Someone actually registered "B.M.T. LINES" as a trademark for a line of clothing in 1988 but the trademark was cancelled in 1995
That must be Rat Race Design's "Bomb Mass Transit" line of graffiti-promoting shirts I found a while ago.
Maybe not the same people. Rat Race Design is at:
Gargano, Mike
Ratracedesign
4809 Ave N, Box 388
Brooklyn , NY 11234
while "B.M.T. LINES" was registered to Masterpiece Apparel, Ltd. in Manhattan.
I wonder if the current BMT Lines clothing knew about the earlier line.
Wow; competing rip-off clothing lines :)
Here's more on rapid transit related apparel labels: Modell's Sporting Goods chains (at least in the city) feature a line of denim jackets and jeans called "Brooklyn Express". The jeans looked pretty rugged, so I went and bought a pair. Needless to say I wear them whenever I'm railfanning or doing trackwork up at Shoreline...:-)
BMTman
In commemoration of National Engineers Week (which is in February, I think) every year, Cooper Union held a t-shirt design competition. The 2000 design was a black shirt with the blue "E" bullet on the front, but missing the left side of the E (either because the designer thought he was being cool, or to avoid copyright infringement). The back was a subway map that only showed the IRT lines (official reason: more colors would have been too expensive) with a couple of stops, and a red X on Astor Place with the words "You Are Here: National Engineers Week 2000."
As far as I know the Subway BMT sandwich (which is called the "Classic Italian BMT") was named for the BMT division of our own beloved subway. I asked this question of a store manager when I first began going to Subway sandwich shops and he was happy to answer the question. The restaurants are decorated with wallpaper depicting the opening of the IRT, the building of the IRT and even what looks like a 1975-vintage Hagstrom-designed subway map.
I think they should use bullets (like they do for subway lines) to describe the Subway sandwiches - like they do at Blimpie's (they use numbers; I am referring to my traditional Blimpie stops in Willoughby and Bridge Streets, in Park Row and also at Canarsie). I would use the "N" for the BMT, perhaps the "A" for Subway Club, "B" for Meatball, "E" for Cold Cut Trio, "F" for Tuna, etc. and would use the correct colors on the signs, of course.
wayne
The sandwich designations might get confusing during the Manhattan Bridge flip-flop......
...Would you have Orange and Yellow sandwiches with the same letters?
Only during peak hours in the off-peak direction. All other times, sandwiches operate local on the express track except for days with a full moon on which they skip-stop every other condiment.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>I think they should use bullets (like they do for subway lines) to describe the Subway sandwiches - like they do at Blimpie's (they use numbers; I am referring to my traditional Blimpie stops in Willoughby and Bridge Streets, in Park Row and also at Canarsie). I would use the "N" for the BMT, perhaps the "A" for Subway Club, "B" for Meatball, "E" for Cold Cut Trio, "F" for Tuna, etc. and would use the correct colors on the signs, of course. <<<
These references would have no meaning for anyone outside of the NYC area.
Peace,
ANDEE
I wonder what a slant R-40 sandwich would consist of.:-)
Naturally, it would have to be cut at a shovel-nose angle.
Sounds like BS but I wrote them to ask when I get a response I will let you know. In the mean time, look at their history BTW "SUB" is for submarine sandwich no mention of mass transit, SUBWAY SANDWICH SHOP HISTORY
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, in New Jersey, they're called hoagies. At least that's what we sold in band in high school. In NYC, it's heroes. In most of New England, they're grinders.
Here is the response I recieved from their corporate HQ.
>>>Dear Customer,
BMT stands for Biggest, Meatiest, and Tastiest.
Thank You
Lu Ann Fontana
Customer Service Rep<<<
Peace,
ANDEE
What next? Jared from the TV ads will be the train conductor? Anyway, SubWay is based in Milford, CT nowadays. It's also home to the Bic Corporation. (Proof? There's a Bic Drive exit from I-95.)
Did this actually exist or not? Stan Fischler's book on the subway suggests it did, while others say that no evidence suggests it was ever actually built.
I suppose they must have bricked up the wall at Atlantic Avenue, but I remember that the westbound local shared the platform with the LIRR and a simple wrought iron fence separated the trains from one another. Another three-four feet of rail and there would have been a connection. Is this what you're referring to?
There is a map of this connection which was drawn by a railfan
in the late 1920s based on personal recollections. It shows
I believe track 6 of the LIRR terminal extended west, then curving
south, following the wall of the station (there is a ticket
counter there now) until it met up with the manhattan-bound IRT
local track. This map indicates that the connection was built
in 1908 and used until 1916.
Actually, I believe the connection was still in use until about 1923, but I'm not completely sure.
BMTman
Is there any published picture of the Mineola or other Interborough equipment on the LIRR?
Dave, that's a good question.
I have never seen a picture of the Mineola on the LIRR, or any other IRT equipment for that matter.
Part of the problem with pictures of the Mineola is that few exist. And there was a reason for that. Legend has it that August Belmont was very protective and secretive about his personal activities. The Mineola was his 'baby' where he wined and dined the rich and famous, hence he wasn't too interested in having much publicity.
BMTman
The "3 Boro Field Trip" included a visit to the "pocket" on the north bound Atlantic Ave platform of the IRT. Just look north across the tracks & see where the connection WAS.
Mr t__:^)
The track map that I have from LIRR Historian Bob Emery shows that the connection was with track 1 not track 6. However, I seem to recall that someone told me that the tracks were renumbered sometime in the distant past so that it may have been track 6 then.
The tracks were renumbered, I've heard that many times. They will be renumbered after the rebuild too..
Yes, that's the map I am referring to
I understand that the trackWAY was built - its still there today. My question is, was there ever a track there, and if so, did Belmont really ever use it?
Back in those days there was little record keeping for the movements of rail equipment through the subway system.
I'm sure Belmont's car was given "clearance" (aka running rights) over the LIRR much like a G.O. would be put into effect for a run of the Nostaligia Train on revenue tracks.
One thing to keep in mind is that Belmont would certainly have wanted to get his guests out to the racetrack bearing his name on Long Island. What better way to do this from his hotel to the track than via his gorgeous 'Minnie' running down the Lex then over the Atlantic Avenue branch of the LIRR?
BMTman
To add to this I have my DUCK theory ... if it looks like, walks like, quacks like ... ?
The Minnie was kept at Belmont's hotel near Grand Central; the track connection was there; he liked to visit his race track; he liked to entertain is friends in grand style ... me thinks it's a duck.
Mt t__:^)
Belmont's hotel near Grand Central; the track connection was there
I have always wondered just exactly where that connection was located? Is there any trace of the track or trackway left today?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
I have assumed he used track one at the "H" after the Broadway line was extended south, i.e. just out of sight on the bend. Your map calls the area "1S".
I'll leave it to others to comment on what was done, if anything before then.
Mr t__:^)
I belive there's a photo in Stan Fischler's book that shows what may have been the hotel portal to the IRT tunnel. He doesn't indicate precisely where that is located in the tunnel, however.
I've always wondered about that photo. I don't think the portal covered by the rolldown door is tall enough to have held an IRT car. I think Stan's off base on that one.
I don't think he meant that the train fit through the portal; this was a pedestrian passage to the tunnel.
AFAIK the car was not kept in the hotel basement per se on
its own track. It would be held on track 5 (between tracks
1 and 2 west of the 42 St [GCT Shuttle] station), then
switched onto s/b track 1 and brought up to the loading door
which led into the basement. I believe this door is east of
the station as the track curves to the south.
I think the layout shown in Peter Doughterty's track book is incorrect for the Shuttle section. IIRC, at the Grand Central end it's a very wide platform, i.e. track 3 covered over. Also track 1 curves at the Times Sq. end (maybe this is just a space/printing problem).
Re: Track 5 ... I'll have to check that out the next time I'm in the area (the space for this extra track). Track 2 I know the story about, but I seem to remember seeing something else that looked a little funny between Times Sq & Grand Central.
Re: Roll door ... that's just where I thought it was. Also in the Times Sq station you can still find the "Knickerbocker" door. It's at the East end of track 1 platform.
Mr t__:^)
I don't think Pete's map book is meant to be to scale or exactly 100% representative of the location of curves, size of platforms, etc. Look at the #7 line in Manhattan, for instance. That line is just squeezed in where it fits, on the maps.
Belmont also served on the LIRR Board of Directors, or some similar echelon; hence his ties to the LIRR.
Isn't the Atlantic Ave LIRR line in the RPA's MetroLink plan to be converted to a subway line and connected into the system?
http://www.rpa.org/mobility/metrolink.html
Are IRT cars useable on this line, i.e. is the third rail compatible?
Who the hell uses the LIRR Atlantic Ave line anyway?
Who the hell uses the LIRR Atlantic Ave line anyway?
Ridership is much higher than most people would imagine.
During the rush it's quite popular for people headed for Wall st. The 2/3, 4/5 are only a few stops away, and it's practically across the platform to get to the 2/3.
Isn't that the terminal for the Hempstead line?
No the Rockaway & Long Beach Branches go there, after a stop at Jamaica.
Mr t__:^)
Most Hempstead trains DO terminate at Bklyn.
Opps ... sorry about that. So that makes 3 lines from the south shore that go their. Some also go to Penn Stn rush hours only.
Mr t__:^)
[Isn't the Atlantic Ave LIRR line in the RPA's MetroLink plan to be converted to a subway line and connected into the system?]
Uh, the RPA has had LOTS of ideas in the past and this one is one of those 'far-out' concepts, and it's a dumb one. Turning the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Branch into a subway line is redundant beyond all reasoning. Why? It's elementary: The Fulton Street Line (A/C) runs parallel with the LIRR up to the East New York area. They are no more than two blocks away from each other between at any point from Flatbush Avenue on eastward. If an A/C rider were to transfer at Broadway/East New York to the J/Z trains for Jamacia, then the customer would continue to parallel the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Branch all the way to Jamaica Center. So, as you can see the conversion of the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Branch (aka Flatbush Avenue Line) into rapid transit use doesn't make a whole lotta sense.
Are IRT cars useable on this line, i.e. is the third rail compatible?
The power for LIRR is 750 volts and the subway system is 600. So things would not work out power-wise for the IRT cars (burnt-out motors would be the answer).
Who the hell uses the LIRR Atlantic Ave line anyway?
Lots of folks. Actually anybody headed for Wall Street would use the Atlantic Avenue Line because it is alot closer to lower Manhattan than 34th Street on the westside. A passenger only has to jump on the IRT (across the platform for a 2/3/4/5) and ride for about five mintues and they're at Wall Street.
BMTman
Well, despite it being redundant to the Fulton Street line, I think the RPA's ideas are kinda nifty, with a hybrid car using both systems and all. ALso, the plan calls for the Atlantic Ave line to be the one-seat ride to JFK, which makes sense, because when I lived in downtown Brooklyn, the car service always took me down Atlantic to get to JFK. The plan envisions a new tunnel for the converted LIRR tunnel to the financial district which would connect to the Atlantic Ave Line.
The A/C lines could have had a parallel El if they hadn't knocked it down as well. I like the idea of redundant lines (Have you ever rode the A/C at rush hour? -- it's got some of the rudest people on earth on it)
I use the Atlantic Avenue line daily from Cedarhurst, on the Rockaway line. You are 100% correct about Flatbush Avenue being much closer to Wall Street than Penn Station. Its a one seat right from Cedarhurst to Flatbush Avenue, which is great. I do see the LIRR eventually closing the East NY and Nostrand Avenue stations, b/c of safety concerns and low usage.
I do see the LIRR eventually closing the East NY and Nostrand Avenue stations, b/c of safety concerns and low usage.
ENY may be a different story, but Nostrand Avenue gets heavy reverse-commuter usage. It probably would be even heavier if the LIRR actually offered semi-decent reverse-commuter service.
Maybe. But East NY looks like a dark and dangerous station. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone get on or off there.
I guess you've never been there during rush hour. Alot of people use that station. I work near one of the "J" stations along Bway and although I usually drive to work since I work 4x12's, when I do occasionally work a day tour I take the train and use ENY. Alot of people get off there with me and walk to Bway Junction. Its alot faster than taking the "J" from Jamaica Station-Sutphin. And in the afternoon alot of people wait for the E/B trains at ENY. Although I don't know for sure, I'd bet more people use Nostrand & ENY than Kew Gardens & Forest Hills on the NY line.
You can't really compare ENY to Kew Gardens or Forest Hills. The latter two are local stops while ENY is an "express" stop in the sense that all Flatbush Ave trains, eastbound and wetbound, stop there. So you'd expect more people to use ENY than either of the two local stops. I have been on the Flatbush Ave line during both the morning and evening rush, and have never seen more than one or two people get on and off.
Hey, Sarge. Quick question: when you get off at ENY station on the morning rush, do you leap over the low-wall along the roadway, or do you use the underpass? Reason I'm asking is that if you did the former I might have seen you a couple years back. I used to commute from Lynbrook to Flatbush Avenue and recall a gent existing at ENY and semi-leap over the low-wall along the Atlantic Avenue service road.
BMTman
Doug, when I know I'm gonna get off at ENY I deliberately stay in the last car of the train. There is an opening from the platform to Atlantic Av by the last car.
Doug, when I know I'm gonna get off at ENY I deliberately stay in the last car of the train. There is an opening from the platform to Atlantic Av by the last car. By the way, we DID meet once, at the SubTalk party at HeyPaul's house. Remember, I was with my 4 yr old son who hogged Paul's motorman's cab.
I remember, but you DROVE in :-(
Too bad you had to leave before our Wonder Wheel & bumper car ride, thanks Mark.
Mr t__:^)
Me and 4yr old Arthur were getting up early the next morning to go to Saratoga Springs, but we did enjoy a nice walk along the water at Sheepshead Bay.
A LIRR/TA connection would save most riders if not all time and alot of headaches. The overcroweding on the FULTON/8TH AVE LINE during the rush hours is enough to make you want to avoid it.THE EAST NEW YORK/BROADWAY JUNCTION complex is almost as crowded as GRAND CENTRAL... Direct service from points east to and through downtown BROOKLYN to LOWER MANHATTAN has always been a ''must do sometime,but not right now''point on the MTA lists of ''thing to do''.A JAMAICA AVE SUBWAY from the ENY STATION of the A/C LINES to the CYPRESS HILLS STATION of the J/Z LINES would have solved this problem a long time ago.
[I do see the LIRR eventually closing the East NY and Nostrand Avenue stations, b/c of safety concerns and low usage.]
I disagree. Since I live in Canarsie section of Brooklyn, when I have to go out east I occasionally use the East New York station. Granted, it can be desolate at times and has had a reputation for crime -- but much like the surrounding East NY area -- the crime has gone down quite a bit and I now have no problems waiting there during daylight hours for a train. As a sign that things have gotten better at ENY is the fact that there is no longer a 24-hour police presence at the station as was the norm just a few years ago.
Another thing to keep in mind: next time you're riding the line in the a.m. take note of the amount of folks waiting on the OUTBOUND platforms at East New York and Nostrand Avenue. You will see a good amount of black women who are waiting for trains to take them to their baby-sitting/nanny and/or maid jobs on Long Island. So, those stations are necessary stops even though on 'off-peak' hours and weekends they could be turned into 'skip-stop' stations.
BMTman
If there is steady ridership then perhaps those stations should be next on the rehabilitation list after the Atalantic Av complex, and Jamaica Station. A rehab would help the station and the surrounding neighborhood.
[If there is steady ridership then perhaps those stations should be next on the rehabilitation list after the Atalantic Av complex, and Jamaica Station. A rehab would help the station and the surrounding
neighborhood.]
Sounds reasonable to me, particularly in light of the other (subway) work going on in that area (East New York/Broadway Junction).
BTW, I used that station, off-hours to get home after a Field Trip and had the benifit of some fellow SubTalkers who waited with me for my train ... there were other folks waiting too.
Mr t__:^)
Don't forget the resurgence of Metrotech Center.
Who the hell uses the LIRR Atlantic Ave line anyway?
Lots of folks. Actually anybody headed for Wall Street would use the Atlantic Avenue Line because it is alot closer to lower Manhattan than 34th Street on the westside.
In addition, the run from Jamaica to Flatbush Ave. is a few minutes shorter than the run from Jamaica to Penn Station, and is much less prone to delays.
And seats are plentiful.
As long as don't have to "Change in Jamaica" that's a plus.
I've used it a number of times, it's a good alternate in bad weather.
e.g. in a snow storm you may not be able to get on a train at Penn Station, but you can get on that same train at Jamaica ... so how do you get to Jamaica ???? Atlantic Ave !!!
Personally I can also walk home from a stop on the Long Beach line, so another reason for me to use it.
Mr t__:^)
If it did, it doesn't any more. The roadway where it would have been has recently been filled with concrete and brought up to platform level.
Yes, it not only existed, but is very much still there.
However, it is currently being used as some kind of storage facility for various MTA work crews (or contractors).
Before the above development, you could clearly see the ROW turnout from the IRT tracks to the LIRR. The connection back in the 20's was made with LIRR track #6 (the current location of track #1 as LIRR track numbering was reversed some years ago).
BMTman
I remember, in 1967, a switch that could've easily rerouted a # 2 or 3 onto the LIRR. This was at the north end of the northbound Seventh Avenue local. Today there is no more trackage in that area.
Right, but the ROW is still there.
The LIRR ticket booth and information counter fill the space where the connection would have been.
BMTman
Sounds like something to add to my list of things to check out next time I'm in the city. I caught a glimpse of where the connection was a year or two ago from a 4 train.
Steve...Do you recall the "pocket" that existed on the wall of the eastbound track as you entered the Atlantic Ave. station? They removed same several years ago. Could that have been a plan to underjump the station right onto the LIRR?
Carl M.
Doug, just because a connection existed between the LIRR and the IRT at Atlantic Avenue doesn't mean August Belmont used it for the Mineola. I would think if he did use it it would have been well documented and somebody would have published it. I'm sure pictures would have been taken. The fact that nobody knows for sure means he probably didn't use it.
As an aside, as long as we're talking about the way owners of Belmont Pk got to the track in the 70's & 80's when Ogden Mills Phipps was the chairman & majority shareholder of the NYRA (which owns Belmont PK) he arrived and left on his personal helicopter on the backstretch. Certainly not as romantic as on the Mineola.
Its jury slection time in the trial of the boyfriend who pushed his girlfriend's car in front of a NS freight train in Sinking Spring PA on the NS Harrisburg Line. The local DA is seeking the death penalty.
I say, if he really did kill someone intentionally, he should get what he deserves.
He killed not only his ex-girlfriend, but also the three passengers in her car.
yesterday was a bad day for NJT. First the 907 from NY Penn did not leave until after the 937 was due to leave. They did not even open the doors until after 930. The 937 was 20 minutes lates. Then last night frozen swittches held us hostage near PATH's HCMF for over 60 minutes. AT least that train crew knew how to make annoucements. I was even late for work thanks to NJT- by **one** minute.
yesterday was a bad day for NJT. First the 907 from NY Penn did not leave until after the 937 was due to leave. They did not even open the doors until after 930. The 937 was 20 minutes lates. Then last night frozen switches held us hostage near PATH's HCMF for over 60 minutes. AT least that train crew knew how to make annoucements. I was even late for work thanks to NJT- by **one** minute.
Don't they set the switches ablaze during cold weather? LIRR does, and I have seen NJT do so around Hoboken.
It depends. In frequently cold places point heaters are installed. There are 2 main types, air blowers and direct burners. Conrail prefered the direct burners and most switches have propane jets in a trough outside of each rail. I prefer this model because you can't see it. Most other RR's use hot air blowers with little trackside burner and air ducts around the rails. In places w/o much cold switches can be set on fire w/ heavy oil etc. however CR had installed heaters at CP-Hatch in south jersey so I guess we count as cold.
They do but this switch heater must be a different type or failed.
HCMF?
Harrison Car Maintenance Facility.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BTW I remember how NJT deals w/ snow on the AC line. Because its a relitivly warm line point heaters are not worth it. Instead they have about 6 of these giant kerosene lamp things that are set under the points and lit. They hold like 3 gallons of kero and probably have to be re-filled every day or so.
I was gonna say, but didn't that in many railroad situations up to modern times, they'd run a car down the line and light "smudge pots" under the points ... smudge pots were good for about 24 hours or so and since railroads actually *HAD* MOW departments, it'd just be a traincrew sent to drop them and light them. B&O and others did this routinely as did PRR and NYC when it went below freezing.
Smudgepots were these things that were shaped like bowling balls where you could light a flame on them. They were often used by highway departments a long time ago to warn of work zones, missing roads and other things. Still used in orange groves and places where cold isn't expected to keep the air near or above freezing. But railroads would routinely use them as point heaters.
The modern ones are shaped like shoe boxes.
Damn! Where's the fun in that? At least the round smudgepots could roll away.
WEll well well whats up with these F trains with the words KA KA KA KA KA KA KA writtten all over them in big black letters all ovr two cars, saw them tuesday morning, not to mention a running tag on an AM M train at 9th street, and what is really up with this "vandalism" thing lately coming back on the Wheels Of STeel. What, the Work Bums aint interested in preservation of rolling stock? and what about the proposition of big 'ol MTA saying "NO MARKED CARS WILL RUN" can someone explain and be nice at the same time?
Sometimes a few squeak by without getting cleaned. I bet tomorrow you won't find a spot on those cars. Taking the train out to clean may have left an empty headway all day, which is much worse than a marked car or two. I've seen this happen several times, though more on the Queens IND since trains are often stored on the express tracks evenings and weekends (way easy acess). Then again, the Queens IND is my home line, obviously it would appear to me to happen more here than anywhere else.
The actual policy states that cars with graffiti should be removed from service ASAP but must be cleaned within 24 hours. Some people interpret this to mean that the train must immediately be removed from service. This is not necessarily the case. I got the feeling that the originator of this thread might have also been responsible for the graffiti. I hope I am wrong.
Dude, You probably are right.
what gives you that idea? why woudl a vandal post on SubTalk?
The way you posed the question is a pretty good indicator that you might have vandalized the train in question. The over-estimation of your work, thinking the train was 'ruined' shows a definite over-inflated self image. I also think that since you couldn't see the direct reactions of those inconvenienced by your handiwork, you post here to get another sort of reaction. If you are the criminal that did the vandalism that you reported, you are hardly unique or original. We've had other vandals here before you who also got off by boasting here. They didn't last long and I suspect you'll be just another flash in the pan. That is unless the NYPD transit bureau, vandal squad doesn't track you down first. Believe me, seven, you are just a minor pest to the TA.
well well well , sorry train dude but i was not responsible for this act,even if i was i wouldnt blab it around as if, u see Tom and Jerry maybe online so, although i am a fan i dont participate in this , reguardless, i know how much you would love ot boast me about how inconvenient a writer might be, im sorry to disappoint you , well in this case, although Tom and Jerr do a fine job at the "vandal Squad" aparently they're getting old. As for my self , why do you presume i am a vandla, boy you people are quick, take it easy and as for Transit Police, good job responding to 10-33 assissting MTS and MSTF on new years eve
Let's drop this, Seven. I don't really understand your rantings and I'm too old to learn a new language. Whether you are a vandal doesn't interest me. Eventually you'll either be arrested, be killed by a train or 3rd rail or you'll get old enough to understand how you wasted your life committing stupid acts.
Any current or prospective members of DVARP's board here? I noticed that there are only 10 candidates for 9 spots, but they all seem qualified from their statements. How do I pick the one to leave off? The only name I recognized both there and in this forum is Isaac Shomer, but then most handles here aren't real names. Thanks for any input.
I rode R142A car 7271 this evening and I noticed that the mylar covering on the side door windows does not cover the entire window.
There is about a 1/4" gap on the top and bottom and about a 1/8" on each of the sides. This will lead to someone attempting to (and maybe suceeding) in peeling a portion of the sheert off and then scratching the window. Failing that they might start creating a scratchiti border around the sheet. Either way it defaets the TA's idea (which is good) of using mylar to discourage the vandalism.
It is almost like someone got lazy and came up with the idea of rather than remove a scratched mylar covered window and putting a new one its place they just rip off the sheet and put a new one on it.
Time will tell.
P.S. - Tonight I saw 2 other sets of R142A in service on the 6 making for at least 3 sets running.
Have you tried to peel it off? I cut my finger while seeing if it was possible. You'd need the special tool.
They are done that way to avoid the hassle of having to remove the entire window to change the sheet. The point of it is not just to reduce cost but also to save time. The buses are done this way too (though I have seen them peeled off from time to time, probably done by a knife).
On the same topic, today I was on R-62As 2166-2170 and all windows are covered with the removable layer (including the tiny cab door window ones and the ones inside the cabs, at least the transverse ones).
A whip is probably the most effective way to eradicate scratchiti!
Flog 'em! :-0
You would have to catch them first.
they tried that here on the L.A. M.T.A. buses here! the windows are now scratched up to the point of becoming grey !!
they tried that here on the L.A. M.T.A. buses here! the windows are now scratched up to the point of becoming grey !!
they tried that here on the L.A. M.T.A. buses here! the windows are now scratched up to the point of becoming grey !!..
Just heard on the news that there was a terrible accident at a grade crossing near Huntington station. At around 7pm a LIRR train with commuters hit a car with four teenage girls in it. Witnesses say the car tried to beat the train and went around the down gates.
Thanks to the foolishness of these idiots, service in both directions is suspended between Hicksville and Huntington.
The car looked pretty messed up, and of course the news makes the victims, most of whom have passed away. The real victims are the engineer, who will have to live with the image that his train killed somebody, and commuters who once again get incovenienced, by stupid idiots who cross tracks when gates are down.
I think that police or some agency should patrol grade crossings. Anybody who tries to beat a train by crossing against the gates should have their car seized. People who risk their lives and the lives of others by their driving should not be driving.
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains
That makes two tonight. An NJT Coast Line train from Hoboken to Bay Head hit the rear of a car that was stopped in traffic in Red Bank. It was just a glancing blow - six more inches and there wouldn't have been any contact, no injuries as far as I know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Didn't I read this exact same post about a month ago?
Here are the stories in the Times and the Daily News. The driver drove around several cars that were waiting at the crossing.
They should set up cameras like they have in various locations around NYC. If you go through a red light, the camera takes your picture, and you get sent a ticket.
The same could apply to railroad crossings. The cost to set these cameras up will be probably be less than the millions the families of the victims sue for each time this happens.
Sounds like a good idea!
Thanks. I got the idea when someone mentioned that they should put cops on patrol near the grade crossings. Since that sounded like a good idea, but not one that may translate well for the municipalities, I figured the next best thing would be to do what NYC has done for the past 7 or 8 years to deal with those who run the red light.
The program has been a success so far. Unfortunately, they have not installed anymore traffic cameras than the 10 or 15 that have been around the city. I'm not sure why. The cameras are in fact costly to install and maintain. One near my home has about 5 dents on it which indicate that someone tried to shoot the camera. By the size of those dents, I would say it was a really POWERFUL gun. But so far as I have heard, the cameras are helping to bring money into the city.
Full barriers - covering all lanes on both sides of the tracks - would be more effective. They'll keep people from making the mistake in the first place.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>Full barriers - covering all lanes on both sides of the tracks - would be more effective. <<<
As I understand it, they cannot do that because os the risk of vehicles becoming trapped when the gates are down
Peace,
ANDEE
Modern barriers are designed to break away on impact when struck from trackside. Your car will get a small dent or two but that's a lot better than a big dent from a locomotive. I watched a trapped car break through one about ten years ago (it was a staged situation for an Operation Lifesaver filming, not a real emergency) - the vehicle, an older Ford Fairmont, sustained relatively minor damage, while the gate snapped off near the pole and landed on the pavement.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's incredible that someone would dart around the gates while the car that was involved in the collision was being hoisted onto the flatbed! Perhaps the cars should be left by crossings. I've seen it done a few times to discourage drunk driving, and once to encourage seat belt use (a mangled postal Jeep with a banner proudly stating "the driver walked away!").
C'mon guys. Am I the only person on SubTalk with compassion and feelings. Stop calling these people idiots. This is a public board. Their friends and families might be on the board now. People make mistakes. And I'm very surprised at you John as I remember you had a death in the family last summer. You should be the most compassionate. And if you have to call the driver an idiot please keep it singular, not plural. Only one person drove through the gates. The two passengers did not. For all you know they might have been yelling "don't do it". If a bus went through the gates would you call all the passengers idiots? The real victims are the girls!!! The engineer will continue living life and will hopefully get over it. The passengers who were inconvenienced will go on living, as LIRR riders they will probably be inconvenienced more times in the future.
Maybe my being a cop for 19 years has given me more compassion as I've been with family members of people killed by accidents and crimes many times.
My deepest condolences go out to the 2 girls killed and my prayers for a speedy recovery for the surviving girl.
For all you know the passengers were the ones encouraged the driver to beat the train because they had to get to mall before it closed or something. At the very least they weren't paying attention to the driver enough to see what's going on and yell "No you idiot! The train is comming!".
To repeat what Jeffrey, for all you know, the passengers may have known full well what the driver was doing and were screaming at her not to! It's true that the engineer will have to suffer with the knowledge that his train killed an anonymous person, even though there was nothing he could do about it. Let's not forget that these girls had family and friends, to whom they were not anonymous bodies crossing in front of a train, who loved them and will miss them. As for the passengers, I doubt that another delay on the LIRR will have a profound, lifelong effect on them.
In case anyone forgot, we live in America. And there's this little thing Americans believe in called INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. There's no excuse for the driver of the car going around the crossing gates. She was a f***ing idiot and as much as I feel sorry for her family, she could've prevented it had she been more patient. However the other two girls we will never know. Sure, there is a chance that they egged her on, but there's also a chance that they told her to stop or didn't say anything because they were scared. Now the American way of looking at it is to assume that the two passengers were INNOCENT and had no part in it. I feel very sorry for the families of the two girls and I don't think you should go around bashing them. The driver was stupid but that doesn't mean the passengers were.
Abe
Keep in mind that by sitting back and not doing anything they would become part of the problem.
And exactly how much control do you have over a car from the backseat? My guess is that they weren't driving the driver's ed special either, so even the front passenger could at best grab the steering wheel. Only the driver can use or not use the pedals. They couldn't have done anything other than scream "NOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo"
Which they probably didn't do. My dad's getting goofier these days and I have to be really alert to prevent him from doing stupid things while driving. Also when driving w/ my friends I am always yelling things like "red light" and "car!"
>>>Also when driving w/ my friends I am always yelling things like "red light" and "car!"<<<
Thanks for letting us know NEVER to drive a car that you are a passenger in.
Peace,
ANDEE
So I should let my reckless teenage driver friends run red lights and cut off cars? Not while I'm a passenger!
Let's all remember something: Regardless of what the passengers are doing, the driver is legally responsible for operating the vehicle. This means that a) it is incumbent on the driver to drive in a safe manner; b) it is the driver's responsibility to appropriately deal with passengers. If passengers scream, distract, party, the driver needs to tell them to stop, or to pull over and refuse to operate the vehicle if the passengers are creating a hazard.
A 20 year old woman with a record of previous violations, including involvement in death of another person (assuming that these facts, posted on this site, were reported accurately), probably does not have the maturity to exercise this responsibility (where another 20 year old might). It sounds like her suspension was lifted too soon. She'll never make another mistake.
There's no way to prove either scenario.
This latest grade-crossing accident certainly is tragic. Equally tragic is that no matter how many times this kind of thing happens, it keeps right on happening. While grade crossings present an inherently dangerous situation, it becomes dangerous only when common sense is abandoned.
We've all seen impatient motorists and pedestrians cross the tracks with the gates down either right before or after a train passes. In this latest incident, the doomed car drove past other, lawfully stopped vehicles. Some witnesses claimed that because an eastbound train had just passed, it was ASSuMEd the gates were just slow in raising. Hasn't it occurred to anyone that there are two tracks, and frequent contra-peak flow service in that area?
An increasingly common occurrence takes place when commuters exit an outbound LIRR train at a home station with a crossing at the front: Instead of waiting for the train to depart and gates to go up, they'll walk down the steps or ramp at the front of the platform and right around the lowered gates and across the tracks in the path of the train. Now the engineer has to hold the train until everyone finish crossing the tracks! I've seen this happen at Cedarhust, Oceanside, Stewart Manor, Nassau Boulevard, Northport, Kings Park, East Williston and other locations- but especially at New Hyde Park, where the gates tend to stay down for long periods of time during rush hours due to heavy train traffic. People just can't wait to get home, can they?
Last time I drove in the area, I was forced to wait at the South 12th Street crossing, which is at the west end of NHP, for about five minutes while about a total of six trains passed in either direction. Every time a train passed, but without the gates going up, the motorist behind me honked furiously. The gates finally did go up, but only for about twenty seconds, which wasn't enough time to proceed without several cars turning left off 2nd Avenue (which parellels the ROW) across the tracks in front of me. When the gates went down again, the impatient driver climbed out of his Jimmy and threatened to pour the contents of his Starbucks coffee on me. I was saved by his cell phone ringing.
The combination of heavy rail traffic and multiple crossings, such as on the main line west of Hicksville, certainly is incentive to grade separate the line. It's said that some people were actually happy about the infamous 1982 collision at Herricks Road that killed nine teenagers because the bad publicity would lead to elimination of the crossing. Sure enough, it was- sixteen years later. You still gotta be pretty twisted to revel in someone's death, even if it was a result of stupidity.
Last night's victims probably figured they were immortal, and it's not 'cool' to obey traffic rules, like all teenagers. Unless all grade crossing are eliminated- highly unlikely- this type of tragedy will keep right on happening. It is a shame that lives are lost, countless commuters are delayed and train crew traumatized because of sheer lack of common sense.
Of course, some people think the world was created just for them, and everyone else is an obstacle to their existence, like someone recently overheard who must've been delayed by the suicide jumper on the Flushing line: "If the jerk wanted to kill himself, why didn't he just take sleeping pills?"
[like someone recently overheard who must've been delayed by the suicide jumper on the Flushing line: "If the jerk wanted to kill himself, why didn't he just take sleeping pills?"]
The best thing I ever overheard a bystander say after a tragedy was about 18 years ago as a rookie cop I was at the corner of Livonia Av & Rockaway Av on the street under the station. A guy committed suicide by jumping in front of a train. The train sliced him in two at the waist. His upper body from the belt up was lying on Livonia with his legs still under the train on the tracks. I still remember a young bystander saying "Look at the chains that guy is wearing, too bad there's so many cops here"!!!
About 25 years ago I was travelling S/B on New Highway going from Rt 109 to Sunrise Hway. Where that one track spur going from Hicksville to Babylon crosses New Highway I noticed the gates were stuck in the down position. I waited there about 15 minutes watching car after car go around the gates. Nobody made a u-turn however all I could picture in my mind was a speeding diesel so I turned around, went back to 109 and took Wellwood.
In the long run I think common sense does prevail. There really isn't too many grade crossing accidents. We see 'em more because as railfans they stand out to us. However there are alot more car accidents caused by stupidity.
While I don't condone any illegal crossings of gates I could understand pedestrians doing it but I really don't understand how any driver can do it. At least pedestrians can look both ways before crossing but a driver cannot look down the tracks unless he is directly on it. I have to admit I've been guilty myself occasionally at the Main Street crossing in Mineola. (That's the station I use) But I always made sure there were no trains coming in any of the 3 directions (including from Oyster Bay)
By the way, while typing this I just heard on channel 7 news that the female driver, who just turned 20, was involved in an accident a few months ago where an elderly woman was killed and just had her license reinstated as it had 2 suspensions. She also had 2 red signal violations.
(By the way, while typing this I just heard on channel 7 news that the female driver, who just turned 20, was involved in an accident a few months ago where an elderly woman was killed and just had her license reinstated as it had 2 suspensions. She also had 2 red signal violations.)
Guilty as charged, but I guess you have to presume the others are innocent until proven guilty.
The bottom line is, some drivers can't conceive of the fact that trains have the right of way, because they were there first. Shouldn't the train have to stop at every grade crossing and wait until no cars want to cross? Perhaps it should be put in a way drivers can understand. Luxury SUVs have the right of way over economy cars because they are bigger, and can heedlessly run over the economy cars killing their occupants if they do not stay out of the way. The same holds for a train and a motor vehicle.
That's great! While we're at it, using the same logic, if a tractor-trailer crushes a Volkswagen beetle on the LIE, the truck should have the right to keep going so the payload can reach its destination on time. Since the beetle's occupants would be roadkill anyway, why should the rest of us have to wait for our groceries, appliances or whatever the truck was carrying?
Shouldn't the train have to stop at every grade crossing and wait until no cars want to cross?
The Supreme Court said that trains always have the right of way.
"The Supreme Court said that trains always have the right of way."
I guess *sometimes* the supreme court can make snese.
"An increasingly common occurrence takes place when commuters exit an outbound LIRR train at a home station with a crossing at the front: Instead of waiting for the train to depart and gates to go up, they'll walk down the steps or ramp at the front of the platform and right around the lowered gates and across the tracks in the path of the train. Now the engineer has to hold the train until everyone finish crossing the tracks!"
Worse yet, is when there is a crossing at the rear of the train. In that case, commuters go around the back of the train but can't see a train coming in the opposite direction. During the rush hour, many of the westbound trains are deadheading back to NYC and are operating at speed. At Oceanside, where the platform is so short that the rear of an 8-car train is still in the street, a number of deaths, injuries and near-misses led to the installation of sirens (to indicate trains coming on both tracks), extended gates and a maze of fencing. Still, I've seen people occasionally try and duck under the gates.
CG
Also one must remember that during rush hour on the main line many trains wrong rail.
What really gets me about these grade crossing crashes on the LIRR is that we're not dealing with slow lumbering freights that can take a long time to clear the crossings. At least then it might be easier to understand why drivers and pedestrians are willing to take risks. But life is not so short that people can't wait the few seconds it takes for an electric train to zoom through.
You have said it all very well. Even if a frieght roared thru like they do at most places it is a minute or two. Laurel Montana where I lived a few years was a real pain. They'd dribble thru at 10 MPH and then the train would stop to hand line a switch. With some trains 7000 feet long you could have a 10 minute delay. Maybe it was OK 50 years ago with shorter trains and fewer vehicles. Today Laurel is Suburbia USA..in more ways than too many vehicles.
I pity the innocent in such cases just as I do in DUI deaths..usually the driver lives [why fate]. Even I am guilty as gross inattention sometimes, but running around gates proves intention and is inexcusable. As you say..these MU's only take a few seconds to pass.BTW they do run around gates in Montana too.
There may be too many crossings for densely settled Long Island, but almost all the time it's passenger trains passing through, which by and large doesn't keep the gates down long- except when two trains are passing in opposite directions, or where the line is very busy, like west of Hicksville.
In most of the rest of America, freight trains still dominate, and some of them can have dozens of cars and keep the gates down for much longer than on the Island. Downtown Reno, NV, population 100K+, has a railroad running right smack through downtown, crossing the main drag at grade- at least it did in 1974 when we were there. Some incredible traffic jams ensued whenever a freight went through.
In a lot of rural areas in Colorado, Utah, South Dakota et al, there are no gates, or even lights- just plain crossbucks. Of course, it is pretty hard not to hear those whistles.
Suburban Chicago has many more rail lines (and crossings) than our 'burbs, and some carry both METRA commuter and freight lines. (Funny aside: I often speak to a vendor in Buffalo Grove, IL, and many times our conversations are interrupted by loud diesel whistles!) Are motorists there any more accustomed to- and more patient at crossings than here? There was one well-publicized school bus accident with multiple fatalities some years ago.
I went to college in a small upstate town outside of Rochester, and there were several freight lines nearby, plus one Conrail trunk line that carried freight and Amtrak east out of Buffalo. Couple of times a year, a Downstater would die at the hands of a freight after driving around the gates. Every time it was the same excuse: "(S)he grew up on the Island, was used to the LIRR going through fast and hated waiting for those long, slow freights."
Even in nearby Westfield and Edison, NJ, there's a freight railroad cutting through and crossing many roads at grade- who'd a-thunk it? New Jersey has quite a few freight-only ROWs in heavily suburban areas. Either the motorists there are used to this, or fatal crossing accidents don't get the heavy play in the local media that those on the Island get.
In summary, LIRR crossings are annoying and inconvenient- but it's a lot more so elsewhere.
Part of the answer is to improve ROW and increase train speeds. The Florida East Coast railway has a high-speed freight line where trains routinely run 79 mph (FRA-allowed max. speed). Straight, well-maintained track and crossing gates helps. If I recall correctly, Arizona has some really first-class track where trains could (safely)go even faster, if FRA rules were changed to allow it.
The 79 mph FRA speed limit is there to encourage RR's to adopt the use of ATS or ATC divices. Even with a simple intermittant ATS the speed would be raised to anything the track could handle.
Of cource most RR lines aren't as flat and straight as the FEC main. However on the NS Pittsburg Line timetable speeds can reach 60-70 intermodals and NS (or CSX) has just been testing intermodal trains at 70-80 on other parts of their system.
Anyway don't think the FRA is being a jerk. The railroads were given 20-15 years of notice to install ATS and most chose not to because safety is too expensive. W/o ATS rules we'd be just like the UK and we know their safety record.
Thanks for the information.
I do not imply anything derogatory about FRA (my posts elsewhere are supportive of FRA).
Because of FRA, there are fewer dead bodies in US train crashes than after European train crashes. Amtrak's Acela may be heavier (and initially buggier) than TGV or ICE in Europe, but it is safer for passengers.
FYI the 80 mph speed limit was been in effect since 1948.
I was in NJ today, and we had to wait at an RR crossing at Anderson street while on the 175. An NJ transit train pulls in, a diesel (there's only one track). It pulls in fast, and departs fast, unlike the LIRR diesels.
Drivers in NJ don't cut in front of buses like they do here on LI, in general I think people have more common sense over there. Aint that way with rude Lawng island people.
Also NJT bus drivers seem to be quite patient with riders, and don't stop or take off abruptly.
There are alot of crossings in NJ, but perhaps since it is a less high strung place to be, compared to Long Island, accidents happen more rarely.
So how good are NJT trains, from a railfan perspective?
I like most of their rail equipment, standard push-pull stuff. But, that Comet IV puke pink interior has got to go!
Peace,
ANDEE
Having been an engineer in Montana and often disturbed by things that could have happened [luckily fate spared me just as I was spared suicides in my years as a motorman but had some near-misses in both areas] and as an irritated motorist in Montana I've wished all toooften that those cursed crossings could be eliminated in populated areas, lets say even over 20 thou. pop. But as another poster says the safety is compromised for price.
BTW with modern well sealed climate controlled autos and often the sound system played [by some] at a high volume I think often times even train horns aren't heard. But that's another story. Vigilance and prudence by the motorist is needed first. The engineer does his/her best most of the time, if not all the time.
In most respects public rail/road crossings are a pain.
I still remember my drivers ed teacher at East Meadow High School, Mr Glaser, in 1971 (30 yrs ago) telling us to treat railroad crossings no different than any other intersections. There were alot more crossings in those days as the Babylon line was still at street level in Nassau with RR crossings all along its length. Those crossings were even more dangerous as each one had a major intersection with Sunrise Highway just feet south of them.
Since I learned how to drive in Manhattan, I never learned to drive across railroad crossings.
It's easier than most intersections in Manhattan anyway.
Actually he said it in the classroom. We never went across any crossings in driver's ed either.
>>>There were alot more crossings in those days as the Babylon line was still at street level in Nassau with RR crossings all along its length. <<<
I remember those days all too well. At the time I had a job that entailed a lot of driving on the South Shore, Baldwin to Bayshore, even though I've never lived on LI I drove out there so much I knew it as well as any native. Horrendus accidents at those crossings were a commom occurence. I think there was at least "a van full of teenagers was killed" in the papers monthly. Or so it seemed.
Peace,
ANDEE
Your point about "sealed autos" is well taken. With your windows rolled up and the stereo blasting, you can't hear anything. Sirens from police cars, ambulances, fire trucks - all silent to the driver of that car. That leads to a lot of collisions between autos and emergency vehicles (and autos vs. trains, I guess, at those crossings with no lights and no gates).
Again, though, we should remember it is the driver's responsibility to operate the motor vehicle safely. In most states, I believe, a driver operating the vehicle in any condition where he/she can't hear anything on the road would be subject to a citation.
You said you rode on Denver's light rail line when you were out here. Did you go all the way to the southern end of the line at Mineral Ave.? If so, you may have noticed that the line runs along Santa Fe Drive (US 85) from Broadway to Mineral. There used to be a ton of grade crossings all along that rail corridor; they've all been eliminated. With all the coal trains using those freight tracks, traffic snarls were getting worse. I remember when they started eliminating those grade crossings; people were breathing a sigh of relief.
IIRC the RR crossing where the accident occured is the second crossing west of the Huntington Station and therefore the trains can get up to a good rate of speed before they pass the gates.
I spoke to someone today who says that sometimes the gates stay down for a long time before a train passes. This could be due to the movement and switching of trains before Huntington and E/B trains waiting for clearance to proceed. If this is true you can understand a person's impatience and frustration. Doesn't excuse the stupidity in driving around downed gates. The idea of a camera giving out tickets is a great idea. Similar to the cameras at certain NYC intersections (Utica/Eastern Parkway) & (Queens Blvd/Ascan Ave to name 2)
They also have cameras at Northern Blvd in Douglaston at one of the lights. Needless to say, buses rarely blow through that light.
Last night's victims probably figured they were immortal, and it's not 'cool' to obey traffic rules, like all teenagers.
Are all women hysterical? Are all blacks criminals?
Pok:
Hmmm - that one is a bit blatent.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Just as blatant as the All teenagers comment.
Pork:
The all teenagers comment was actually the one I was talking about. I did not expect to see such an obvious comment such as that.
-cordially,
turnstiles
OK, you're right, that WAS a rank generalization, about 'all' teenagers being too cool to obey rules, and I apologize for that.
The proper term to use would have been MANY teenagers. At the risk of sounding more inflammatory, many years' experience, and the responsibility of raising offspring, has taught me that **most** PEOPLE, irregardless of age, don't seem to want to be bothered following rules of common safety or courtesy such as:
-Signalling to change lanes;
-Making room in your lane for someone who is signalling as such;
-Stopping for pedestrians even if they have the light;
-Stopping for school buses- doing that in Queens can get you cursed and threatened bodily harm;
-Waiting ones' turn on lines for buses, token booths, supermarkets, fast food etc.;
-Taking up one space in a parking lot;
-Being in front of ones building when ones ride comes, not twenty minutes (of honking) later;
-Cutting ones conversation short when it's obvious other people are waiting for the pay phone instead of making additional calls;
-Not making calls on ones cell phone in movies, restaurants, etc. when it becomes apparent the conversation is not of an emergency nature;
-Moving ones bags off the next seat when many people are standing;
-Making sure you have the proper change or a legitimate Metrocard BEFORE you get on the bus;
I could go on, but probably shouldn't.
I understand NYStatehas given LIRR a $50 million grant to design and start work on grade separations (under or overpasses) near New Hyde Park. Does anyone have any idea of the schedule for this work?
The LIRR is opting to eliminate the grade crossings in Mineola east to roslyn road first.
Well said!
After what happened to my Mom I have less compassion for people who choose to risk their own life. The driver chose to take the chance and go against the gates, my Mom had no chance, Cancer strikes randomly, and there's is little that can be done to avoid it.
Well put, Jeff
Peace,
ANDEE
sorry about not closing out the bold html. Here is a correction!!
C'mon guys. Am I the only person on SubTalk with compassion and feelings. Stop calling these people idiots. This is a public board. Their friends and families might be on the board now. People make mistakes. And I'm very surprised at you John as I remember you had a death in the family last summer. You should be the most compassionate. And if you have to call the driver an idiot please keep it singular, not plural. Only one person drove through the gates. The two passengers did not. For all you know they might have been yelling "don't do it". If a bus went through the gates would you call all the passengers idiots? The real victims are the girls!!! The engineer will continue living life and will hopefully get over it. The passengers who were inconvenienced will go on living, as LIRR riders they will probably be inconvenienced more times in the future.
Maybe my being a cop for 19 years has given me more compassion as I've been with family members of people killed by accidents and crimes many times.
My deepest condolences go out to the 2 girls killed and my prayers for a speedy recovery for the surviving girl.
Apparently it was the driver's birthday -- her 20th -- which may increase the possibility that alcohol was involved. I'm sure they'll do an autopsy and we'll know the toxicology results in a day or so.
I just heard on the 10:00 news, the 20 year old driver had a questionable driving record to say the least. Last year she was involved in a fatal accident (deemed not her fault- hmmmmmm). Her license has been suspended twice (in 3 years) and she's also received 2 summonses for ignoring traffic control devices. I guess one can draw their own conclusions. I wonder how long it'll be before the 3 families file suit against the LIRR?
At West 4th today the downtown F was ordered to go express to Jay st! Boy that changed the SRO state of the train in a hurry! A few people rushed down from the upper level after hearing the announcement (prospect of superceding an A). The C/R changed the digital signs to F TO CONEY ISLAND | 6 AV LOCAL | CULVER EXPRESS which was close enough to what we were actually doing. The real surprise was the T/O was doing the R.R. track clear horn (long, long, short long) instead of (short short, short short). He almost forgot to slow to 15 for one stop (but the horn surprised everyone into stepping as far away from the platform as possible). At Jay we became a normal F, and the signs changed back to 6AV/CULVER LCL. The A across the platform was sent local all the way to Euclid (poor them).
The F many times will battery run to Jay, I've been on them a few times.
BTW, a NorthBound "F" ran via West End to West 4th via "B" and Manhattan Bridgte this afternoon at 1:15PM. T/O said a re route. Must have been way behind???
Not really a Culver Exp;. Too bad they could say "Houston Express". Haha .The Culver Express was a blast. Bergen, 7th Ave, Church, 18th Ave, Kings Hwy.then all stops. Ran a few with R1-9 too. Great.
A few questions about skip stop service.
This occured today on a Manhattan bound 2. We left Flatbush and skip 2 stops-Newkirk AV and Beverly RD. We stoped at Church and then we skip 2 more and finally arrived at President st. We went local to Manhattan from there. My question is such operations normal? It was during rush hour. I though that both the 5 and 2 were local in Brooklyn. Are there any other line that use this practice?
What is the difference between a short,short,short,short horn and a short,short,long,short horn?
They do that when the trains need to make up some time due to a delay. Happens everywhere, if you saw my post about the F line's little express run. Other lines where this happens almost daily are:
N/R - Routed via B'way express when late
F - Hillside ave express when late, and also in Brooklyn either the express tracks or express on local stopping at express stations only (+ 4th ave).
G/R - Express in either direction along QB (the full length often). Often on the local track, sometimes express.
6 - Express on the local, but will also stop at Bleecker in the downtown directions. Trains will also not pick up passengers until 14st after turning at Brooklyn br (and will not pick up there either).
1/9 - Express on local, also stopping at 59th st and Houston st stations.
Q - Down B'way express, no stops between 14th and Dekalb. Nobody's ever on the train because they don't know where its going, and the time will often be around 15-20 minutes to do so. Nap time...
Also, no stops from Kings H'wy to Church ave.
2 - No stops between 96th and 135 (either direction). If T/O forgets and stops at 110th, it changes to no stops until Grand Concourse.
4 - Jerome ave express stops, also Yankee Statium.
2/5 - Skips various stops along White Plains rd el.
The D will get routed express on the Brighton when running late.
>>>What is the difference between a short,short,short,short horn and a short,short,long,short horn?<<<
Short, short, short, short is used for trains bypassing a station.
Under the new rules, the T/O blows two short blasts upon entering and another two short blasts upon leaving.
Under the old rules, a T/O was required to blow short successive blasts for the length of the station.
Short, short, long, short does not exist.
Long, long, short, long is the warning signal used for a railroad train (federal law). This signal is not used in the NYCTA subway system.
Rule 61 from an old rule book:
"o" for short sound and "___" for longer sound.
(a) ___ Apply brakes immediately-STOP
(b) ___ ___ Sounded when passing caution lights or flags to warn flagman of approach of train.
(c) o o An answer to any signal
(d) o o o Road Car Inspector (RCI) to respond to train.
(e) ___ o Signal Maintainer to respond to train.
(f) ___ o ___ o Train Crew needs (Police) assistance
(g) o o o o Train request to Tower Operator or handswitcher for route or signal.
(h) Succession of Short Sounds A warning to persons on or near the trackway or on short station platforms. This isgnal must also be sounded when a train is operating agianst the normal direction of traffic or when a train is making an irregular move, or when a train is pasing through a station without stopping
H is the rule that is changed.
LONG-LONG-SHORT-LONG is one signal used by railroads when they approach grade crossings. I last heard it used when the SIR had grade crossings. The last grade crossing on the Subway system was eliminated many years ago on the "L" in Carnarsie.
I was one of the few M/M who used the standard grade crossing whistle signal as it wasn't in the TA rulebook! Being a railfan I knew it so blew that signal at E105 st, when I worked Canarsie. It broke my heart having to stop before crossing. Nice downgrade stretch of track to make a grandstand stop at E105, which transpired later. BTW the__o_ signal can be used for warning track personnel, or other workers On ROW.
Denver's LRVs use that signal at both high speed grade crossings on the light rail line. There is a third grade crossing beneath the Colfax viaduct; however, it only has a flashing signal and LRVs do not blow that signal. At that point, they're negotiating a sharp curve and aren't going all that fast.
Can anyone direct me to (or identify) a complete list of subway lines that have an additional layup track or turnaround loop (i.e.- 34th St. IND, Brooklyn Bridge "6", South Ferry "1,9", Broad Street "J", 71st/Continental "R,G"), that allow for a subway line to terminate and turn around (like the "J") while another line that shares the same track and station (the "M") continues beyond the terminus point of the other line ? Also, if possible, please indicate if the layup track or loop disrupts or delays the normal service of the line which shares the same track and does not terminate at that station. I hope I phrased this question correctly- it would help with a project I'd like to work on shortly. Thanks, fellow sub-talkers!
Can anyone direct me to (or identify) a complete list of subway lines that have an additional layup track or turnaround loop
(snippage)
Hi,
I think the book of track maps that I publish will asnwer all your questions (and more). Click on the cover image below and follow the link. I will have about 75 copies of my brand new version (2.4b) coming back from the printer next Monday.
Conversely, I've also put older versions up online (in colour) if you're interested in researching it that way. They are at http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
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Thanks for the heads-up. I'm the world's farthest thing from a Web designer, and that site was thrown together in Front Page 97 back in 97 or 98. It's a horrid site that I'd dearly love to update if I ever re-learn how to edit HTML. I think what you're getting is an error relating to the Front Page extensions or some other FP crap that gets littered into code by that wretched product.
One of these days, when I'm not flying, playing with Linux, Win2k, my firewall and proxy server, revising my trackbook or spending quality time with my wife (not in that order), I'll re-do the entire site, only this time using Dreamweaver, GoLive--or HomeSite if I get brave.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
What's wrong with Emacs to edit your html? ;-)
Besides, the quuxuum.org server if that's the one you're talking about doesn't support and never will support the FP Extensions.
What's wrong with Emacs to edit your html? ;-)
Oh, nothing's wrong with Emacs (or VI or even lowly little pico). The problem is more locally focused on that area between the chair and keyboard. I am still greatly HTML-impaired terrified (writing event he simplest lines of code gives me the same feeling as having my tongue within inches of a cold flagpole in January!). Not to mention Emacs-impaired as well (grin).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
It's those typos. They'll get you every time.
Guess what zman, if you didn't use Bill's Browser, you could get there. Works fine on Netscape.
Hi Folks, This evening while traveling with a friend, We came across an R 36 Mainline pair on the 7 line at Grand Central. The car #s are 9550 and 9551. We rode the 9550 to Queensboro Plaza. The bulk head signs still say "6 Pelham Bay Park" and "6 Brooklyn Bridge" these cars must have just come over. Theres more Mainliners to come. the weird thing is that these 2 cars are westinghouse cars and are riding with a GE consist go figure.
Those mainline cars don't have lights that flicker do they?
Yes they do. They are basically the same as their worlds fair counter parts only difference is the smaller windows.
Well they could be sending them over since the R-142As are appearing in droves now on the 6. It makes sense, but it's mere speculation on my part....
-Stef
Well they could be sending them over since the R-142As are appearing in droves now on the 6. It makes sense, but it's mere speculation on my part....
Was that part of the TA's plan...to salvage the mainline R36s as well? I thought only the worlds fair cars would stay around longer. But hey, there have been several different posts on subtalk recently regarding when the R62As go to the #7, and/or which redbirds will be retired first...I think we'll really just have to wait and see what will happen instead of speculating...though I know that is fun to do :) -Nick
It makes sense that if all R-36s are the same, except for the windows, then the best of the group will be preserved, regardless of the window configuration. "The Best" probably has more to do with structural integrity than anything else.....good parts can always be cannibalized from the cars the get scrapped.
Add 9552-9557 to the list. They're on the 7 line too. At one time however, werent these all part of the 7?
I remember 9484-9557 being a part of the #7 line in the 70's.
I guess these will come over before the aluminum cars.
I also noticed they 'broke up' the subway series car. Car # 9712 and 9713 are not part of it anymore and the cars are out of order. What's up?
flx7595
as i figured the redbirds will finish on the # 7 line !!!!!!
Either that or too many WF R36's are dropping dead that they had to call in Mainliners for backup.
Shawn.
Train Dude said in the last MBDF report the No. 7 trains had the second highest numbers behind his R-68s at Concourse, so I doubt there are suddenly a lot of them falling apart.
It may be that due to the high MBDF the MTA has decided to keep the Corona fleet as intact as possible and augment it with spare R-36s from the mainline. If that's the case, the MTA may have decided to keep the R-62s on the mainline and phase out all the Redbirds there as the R-142s arrive.
If they move the R-36s mainliners and the best of the R-33s over to the Flushing line, it won't see any new trains until either the last of the R-142s show up, or when the next order (reportedly the R-160) arrives, which would also allow time to modify the Corona and Coney Island car shops to handle the new roof-mounted AC systems.
R160???!!! What's that?
R-160 may or may not be the contract number for the next order orf IRT cars to replace the last of the Redbirds.
R-160 may or may not be the contract number for the next order of IRT cars to replace the last of the Redbirds.
From what I figured, the current R142(A) including option orders are able to entirely replace the Redbirds and have some cars to spare.
Shawn.
What about the WF R-36s camped out on the 6? Wouldn't it make sense to send them back to their original habitat first?
I would think so, but I've heard a couple of the are among the rustier R-36s in the fleet.
Time for the Bondo Squad, then.:-)
Noticed last night that the 'subway series' redbird is broken up. Looks like 9712 and 9713 have been uncoupled and the other cars moved around (9357 is now the lead car to Flushing).
Any news?
thanks.
flx7595
Don't you mean cars 9394-9395 were moved around? 9394 was the lead car to Flushing wasn't it? Then who's the lead car going towards Times Square if 9712-9713 was taken out?
9389-9388 is the lead to the Square.
flx7595
Cars 9550-9557 now on the #7
This was probably asked, but how do they get from the #6 to the #7 line? Through Queensboro Plaza?
flx7595
With two R33S cars at each end, here is my guess.
Westchester Yard -> 125 Street Uptown Station -> Jerome line -> Concourse Yard -> Coney Island -> Broadway line -> Queensboro Plaza -> Corona Yard.
Chaohwa
If they are willing to do a couple of reverse moves, they can do it much faster by reversing at 47-50 St. to Lex-63rd, then reversing to 57th-7th, then to Queensbridge. To avoid delaying revenue trains, they would probably have to do this either at late night or with two T/Os, one at each end. I'm not sure if it's worth it from a cost perspective, though, considering the OT involved.
subfan
The Mainline R 36 car #s that are on the 7 line are: 9548-9557. Now all we need is 9478-9547 to come over. I can hardly wait.lol. These cars will probably come in sets of 10s.
Last night there was a consist involving an R36 MainLine on the 7:
9629-9628-9331-9551-9550-9727-9726-9735-9734-9662-9663
IDK if they still have this consist existing but be on the lookout for more.
I just saw it this morning pass by 55th Street.
Did they send 9478-9483 to the #6 too?
Those are also #7 originals I believe.
flx7595
Yes, indeed.
Chaohwa
Here's a story about last night's 6:37 pm Trenton local.
Read See http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?j0104_BC_NJ--StuckTrain
A fairly comprehensive story by Joe Malinconico et. al. appears in Friday's Star-Ledger. An air connection embedded in a block of ice became disconnected and was hidden by the ice, so the cause of the stoppage was not discovered for quite a while.
Transportation in general, and transit in particular.
He handed out goodies for people with power. The main thrust is a program to guarantee that outside New York City the elderly won't have to pay county taxes anymore (no matter how rich they are).
Larry Littlefield:
I didn't listen to the state of the State address but the fact that he didn't mention a thing about transit doesn't surprise me. I also think the fact is interesting that elderly residents OUTSIDE of New York City in time will not have to pay county taxes anymore. What about those who live in New York City. I guess they don't count. I also guess that transit doesn't count either.
BMTJeff
(I didn't listen to the state of the State address but the fact that he didn't mention a thing about transit doesn't surprise me. I also
think the fact is interesting that elderly residents OUTSIDE of New York City in time will not have to pay county taxes anymore. What about those who live in New York City. I guess they don't count. I also guess that transit doesn't count either.)
I'm not prepared to say I despise Pataki more than I despise Sheldon Silver, but at least they are even.
It seems only fair that the elderly won't have to pay county taxes outside NYC. They already don't pay county taxes inside NYC. :-)
"It seems only fair that the elderly won't have to pay county taxes outside NYC. They already don't pay county taxes inside NYC. :-) "
Yeah, but they pay a little thing called NYC Income Tax, which probably outweighs any county tax out there.
("It seems only fair that the elderly won't have to pay county taxes outside NYC. They already don't
pay county taxes inside NYC. :-) "
Yeah, but they pay a little thing called NYC Income Tax, which probably outweighs any county tax
out there.)
Yep, when you add up New York City's local taxes they are about the highest anywhere, mostly because of the massive amount the state requires the city to either transfer to the state for Medicaid or spend on Welfare (these are state responsibilities elsewhere in the U.S.) When I ran the numbers, however, I found a shocker -- Nassau and Suffolk taxes are as high, despite a far lower health and social services burden. All the benefits of screwing New York City have been captured by the patronage machines out there.
I owned property in Brooklyn for 8 years and had relatives in Nassau Co. Even considering that my property was much older I still paid less than half what they paid in real estate tax.
Now I hear of such taxes running $4000-5000- and up in suburban counties in New York and New Jersey while I'd pay about $800 for similar in Montana. NoDak somewhat lower but they have a sales tax OTOH Mont. pols. want one in the worst way.
I talk too much...simply nothing is free and where one doesn't get you the other does, in a different way. EG if you have a new or nearly new vehicle in Montana the plates cost in the $500 range..all vehicles except the oldest are assessed and you are taxed for plates.
Do NYC Transit employees receive discounts or free passage on any of the other MTA Agency services such as LIRR, SIRT or bridges/tunnels?
Officially, No.
Peace,
ANDEE
In other works you work for TA your "pass" is only good on TA. If you work for LIRR your pass is only good for LIRR.
Back in 1985 when I took the SIRT to Tottenville HS the head of the MTA got on the train. At the time SIRT was collecting fares on the train (lifting transportation) when the head of the MTA showed the conductor his pass he was told that it was not good on the SIRT and he needed to pay. The head of the MTA did pay the fare.
When the Trainman pointed out to the Conductor WHO he just collected the fare from, the head of the MTA laughed it off saying the Conductor was 100% right and just doing his job. This did make the headline of the advance though, somthing like "MTA HEAD has to pay for his ride"...
Correct. However, some conductors on NJT, Amtrak (my experiences) or LIRR or MetroNorth(other employees experiences) let us ride for free. One time I was going to Philly and an AMtrak stopped routinmely at my station on NJT . The conductor saw my MTA jacket and asked where I was headind. I stated Philly and he said come on and ride (for free)!
I always have tickets ready and expect to pay for other than NYCT subway, MaBSTOA Bus and NYCT local bus. We have to pay for NYCT express bus service.
And the nycDOT "privates" expect their brothers in the TWU (union speak, not a sexist remark) to pay ... we get the most trouble with the mngt. that EXPECTS to ride for free. We also get the same treatment from the guards at Riker's ... our drivers don't argue with a guy/gale carrying a gun.
Mr t__:^)
>>>Correct. However, some conductors on NJT, Amtrak (my experiences) or LIRR or MetroNorth(other employees experiences) let us ride for free. One time I was going to Philly and an AMtrak stopped routinmely at my station on NJT . The conductor saw my MTA jacket and asked where I was headind. I stated Philly and he said come on and ride (for free)! <<<
I'm surprised you didn't report him. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Back in the early 70's a Penn Central Hudson conductor askedif I was a priest because I was dressed too somber. I advised him I was a motorman and he asked to see my pass..rode on the house with him a few times. Once rode SIRT on my TA pass, once on the LIRR because they took my sidekick's New Haven pass. But it wasn't common nor accepted practice, needless to say could have resulted in discipline for trainman accepting it.
Yes, but it's more common on the Class 1 RxRs & AmTrak. When I worked for Pan Am it was a official thing, i.e. you'ld need to obtain a ticket for your almost free ride ... I always liked Delta, back then they treated you much better then the other US airlines. Usually you got treated to worst on your own airline.
Mr t__:^)
Sounds like that toll booth attendant near the end of the original Pelham 1-2-3 who insisted on collecting 50 cents from Garber even though he flashed his TA police badge.
BMT Standard--New name for the current B.M.T.
BMT Triplex--Heavy Duty! All the ingredients of the BMT Standard, served on a 137' long roll, cut in three pieces for easy eating.
The IRT--One piece of bologna with no toppings. The money for ingredients went to buy out all the other sandwich shops.
The IND--Nicely toasted roll served with instructions to take the ingredients out of other patrons' BMT and IRT sandwiches.
The IND Second Sandwich--Twice as expensive as all the other sandwiches put together. Consists of a plate with a 64-page color brochure explaining what a great sandwich it would have been if only they could have made it.
The Second Avenue Sub--Everyone pays a subcharge on their sandwiches to fund this. Currently consists of two small pieces of bread served on three plates.
The Manhattan Bridge--12" hero, but you're not allowed to eat the other half of it until 2004.
Paul this is a classic.
LOL!
It's a keeper...
BMTman
I tried ordering one of the Second Ave Sandwiches; they told me it will be ready soon, but I've been standing on line since 1923....They told me if I'm patient, maybe they'll serve me a "stubway" sandwich.
I ordered a "Franklin Avenue Shuttle" sandwich....most of the ingregients were rotten, so they removed the good ones and put them on a single slice of bread and served it to me that way.
... and, for this week only, every sandwich comes with a complementary Green Hornet (comic) book!
--Mark
...whatabout the South Ferry Feast?
:ALL the toppings must fit into the
first 5 feet of the sub since that's all
that's gonna "fit into your platform mouth"
in one sitting?
How about "The Market-Frankford" meatball sandwich. It will have four meatballs.
That has to be served with an Almond Joy on the side.
The Triplex would be so heavy you'd need a hoist to lift it to your mouth.:-)
How about the Multisectional? Lightweight, cut into five equal sections. Perfect for dieters.
How about the Multisectional? Lightweight, cut into five equal sections. Perfect for dieters.
I was thinking of The Bluebird, light grilled chicken breast on a flaky croissant roll with blueberry mayonnaise.
Do you think it would fly?
It wouldn't fly, but its acceleration into your digestive system would be pretty good :)
--Mark
An R-10 sandwich would go down fast, with thunderous results.:-)
Allright. I'll join in. The IRT is of course narrower than the other sandwiches--and can't be served with any other sandwich---but can be accross the table from a BMT at the Queensboro Counter.
Well, I gave it my best shot.
:-) Andrew
What next? Jared will be our conductor? (He'll soon inspire us all to lose weight and ride our local transit systems! :>)
Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that.:-)
The Sea Beach Sandwich. It's my contribution to culinary taste. An Italian sausage, red peppers, in a non-onion ( I hate onions) marinara sauce. It must be served on a whole wheat Italian roll. Top it down with a cold glass of California lemondade, and you have a treat. That's my Sea Beach sandwich, and I think it's a real bang-up treat.
However, all Subway restaurants in Astoria and eastern Queens plan to stock several times as many (up to seven (7) times as many) IRT Sandwiches as they do BMT Standard burgers. Thus the line for the BMT's at the QB counter will always be long and grumpy.:<
-jestfully,
turnstiles
As long as they're not serving pre-war meat. :)
Ee-eeeeewwww!
For those who ride the B line, I'd like to offer them my R68 Sandwich. It's compliments include:
1) Heavy on the mayo, heavy on the bread, just plain heavy.
2) Good tasting but slow going down. So slow, you might get the "runs" for another train.
3) BBQ extra for the 2579 fanatics.
4) Iron supplement
LOL, couldn't of put it better myself
Peace,
ANDEE
When did the Monmouth Jct. station (between Princeton and Jersey Ave.) on the NEC close? There's still a little passenger shed there, but I have a 60's pic of a large granite station building. When was that knocked down?
I don't know the exact date (without a timetable search) but the last time I recall stopping there was in the mid 70's. I made one of my last mainline trips in MP54's at about the same time. I remember stopping at Monmouth Jct., Deans and Adams. I remember the doodlebugs stopping at Monmouth Jct. in the early 60's, but never got the chance to ride them at that time.
I had a intresting ride in this AM on the D 8:07am from the Highway (feet hurt, wanted a seat so no Q today).
Had to be a new conductor or one in training,
Ave M was annoucned Ave H was nexted.
Newkirk, new Strong voice on the PA annoucing transfer to Q.
Court/Bev the other voice is back.
Church Ave, annoucment made "Church Ave, D to Manhattan, Step in Stand Clear of the Doors, Please"...Problem the doors never were opened. Doors open, annoucment made once more in a more embarrased voice.
Parkside, "Let Them In Please, Let Them In Please" (first time for that).
Prospect Park heard in the backround on PA "Stick your head out the window".
Here it gets fun, Command holds us for sick pax at Grand St. Now we have the T/O C/R and Instructor C/R all making annoucements SOME at the same time (guess who shouted over who).
Well at least it passed the time while waiting, ride took an extra 40 minutes.
Ugh, student C/R. Whenever I get on a train with a student C/R (you can tell by the shaky and unsure voice and sometimes you can hear the regular C/R in the background telling the student what to say), I just groan since I know that my commute has just been unwillingly extended.
Hey they gotta learn sometime
Why not feel honored that you're helping break in a new student?
Several years ago, I boarded a Southern Calif. Rapid Transit District bus on my way to college classes. The bus was driiven by a student driver who wasn't supposed to take on passengers, but the instructor sitting behind him didn't notice me soon enough to stop me from hopping aboard; he decided I was OK, so I paid the fare and stayed on. The student drove the bus on the usual route, making all stops and opening and closing doors, practicing pulling out into traffic, the works; but I remained his only passenger.
When we arrived at the college I got off, but not before praising him for his consciencious efforts and his obviously good rapport with the instructor. I wished him luck.
About a year later, I boarded the same line, and there he was, the former student now a full time driver (and he did a superb job). He remembered who I was! I congratulated him on his promotion, and continued riding his bus frequently thereafter.
I was speaking as a passenger and not as a train operator. I should have clarified that.
Not to mention that I've had a few road students of my own that almost made my hair turn white. Now, I don't accept road students anymore except on the C & G lines. Those two lines as you all know run shorter trains so at least there is some room for error (and believe me, there's a whole lot of error).
I would accept them on all lines if the TA didn't hold the trainer (me) 100% responsible for anything that would happen(i.e. station overrun, etc.), but since they do, the majority of times I'll let someone else earn the extra 2 hours pay.
I know you were speaking as a passenger. That's why I related my own story as a passenger (I am not a transit professional, so I have no stories as one by definition).
If you need that type of room for error, then you aren't in control of your train at all times. I already know what it will be like to train these outside T/Os, as I did break in the carpenters and structure maintainers who were forced into RTO around 1994 or so. My attitude is someone has to do it. Let it be the ones wh do it for a living. There are those who are claiming already that they will refuse to break in student T/Os coming off the street and our job will further demoralize when they run through switches, signals and station. The C.B.A. pays us 2 hours, not enough in my book but none the less, overtime given us to do the job. A while back, miscellaneous T/Os filed a grievance because both T/Os wanted the 2 hours to break in a student because the T/Os don't change responsiblities during the day. The one who gets the engine stays there, the one who flags is out in the cold for the duration. The TA used a TSS to break in the students after that so who is really gaining? I'd rather have the qualified knowledgible motorman breaking in the student as it does reflect to the student. To be off the 8 car marker is just as much a cardinal sin for the Jay Street SORC TSSs as it is to put the panel out of the station. Don't use a short train as an excuse here to be cocky with the equipment, it doesn't work anymore. You are only as good as your last move.
>>>The C.B.A. pays us 2 hours, ...<<<
A question, is this 2 hours incuded? In other words work 8 and get paid for 10?
Question 2: I hab=ve a good friend who is a TW/O does it work the same for him when he has a "student"?
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes for both questions.
Then I see your point, they should pay you double when you have a student.
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually I would train all students for free if they just didn't lay all of the blame on us if anything minor happens. If a train puts a door panel out and it's called in, I'm out for 15 days and absolutely nothing happens to the student.
If I want to gamble my paycheck like that, I'd rather go to the local OTB.
I hear you
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>There are those who are claiming already that they will refuse to break in student T/Os coming off the street<<<
Count me among them.
So, it is not required that you take a student?
Peace,
ANDEE
Sounds as if you had to be there.
Nice confidence builder, Lou. :):) No seriously, what other mistakes did you notice besides the annoucements and door not opening right away?
Train#1986Mike
I am happy to report that the world famous Coney Island Cyclone rails are clear of snow.
At least I'm happy!
It should also be noted that there is no snow reported on the Thunderbolt, either :)
--Mark
I don't know about that; how well do scrapyards generally shovel?
Okay we all know from the movie Pelham 123 that a subway train gets it's call sign from their departure terminal and the time they leave and good old Stillwell you qualify it with the line letter. And we've read that reroutes like a Mott train on 7th Ave still uses the Lex call sign.
But what about like a Q ending a run at Brighton Beach and then is moved to the yard. Would it still be Brighton XXX even though it is going the other way?
Basicly what are non revenue moves called or call signs?
Thanks
Depends where you are.
Put-ins from 137 Yard to 242 are referred to by their position (North/South) and Track Number (7, 8, 9). Layups are refered to the same way.
Trains going from 242 to the carwash at 207 Yard are "Wash trains" and the ones coming back are "Wash returns"
Put-ins from New Lots to Flatbush are "Flatbush Put-ins".
Trains that go out-of-service en-route become "The original Call sign running light"
Trains not in service, moving from one point to another are "Light" or "Extra"
The garbage trains are "Regular Work #?"
The Revenue Collectors are "Collector #?"
Work trains are either "Work #?" or "Roadmaster #?"
Your hypothetical Q is probably just a "Q lay-up to Stillwell Yard"
>>>The garbage trains are "Regular Work #?"<<<
I haven't heard that saying "Regular Work" in years! Shows you how long I've been away from the IRT.
In the B division, a garbage train is called a "pickup".
Originating in 38 St Yard: Eastern Pickup & Southern Pickup
Originating in 207 St Yard: #3 & #4 Pickup.
Funny how the A & B divisions while they look the same are sooooo different from one another. And not just with "pickups/ regular works" either.
>>>But what about like a Q ending a run at Brighton Beach and then is moved to the yard. Would it still be Brighton XXX even though it is going the other way?<<<
In the case of the Q layup, the train would keep it's original call letters out of 21st Street until it reaches Stillwell Yard.
Alex L.'s post illustrates most of the examples used. One other is for yard to yard transfers. In the B div., you just state the destination of the transfer and the operating motor.
IND/BMT lines use the letter of the line in their call letters. The IRT just uses the terminal, which can get a little confusing if you're a rush hour train out of Flatbush Av.
The following are the most popular TA terms used to identify a train:
A-Apple
B-Bravo
C-Charlie
D-Delta
E-Echo
F-Fox
G-George
J-just the letter J
L-Larry, but more often the letter L is only used
M-Mary
N-November or Nancy
Q-Quincy
R-Romeo
S-Shuttle
Z-Zebra or just the letter Z
The IRT just uses the terminal, which can get a little confusing if you're a rush hour train out of Flatbush Av.
Actually, Flatbush is the exception. Trains out of Flatbush during rush hours usually ID themselves as "Flat to White Plains" or "Flat to Dyre" sometimes with the occasional "2 type" or "5 type" thrown in, especially if they are on the wrong side of town.
A couple of questions:
First of all, trains leaving terminals with "numbered" names like 207th Street or 179th Street, how do they identify their departing station on the air? Do the "F" trains use "Hillside" and the "A" trains use Inwood?
Also why doesn't the TA use a standard phonetic alphabet like the US Military or the NYPD? Speaking of which, does tne NYPD use "Lincoln" or "Larry" for "L"?
Thanks
George
The International Civil Aeronautics Orginization Phonetic for "L" is LIMA, Police generally use LINCOLN
And LIMA is pronounced "Leema," not "Leima" like a lima bean.
Not at all. An F train might be referred to as the 6:01 Fox (or Foxtrot) 179th St. An A train might be referred to as the 7:17 Apple 207th St. The terminal name is a terminal name regardless of whether it's a number or not.
A=Apple...B=Bravo...C=Charlie...D=Delta...E=Echo...F=Fox...G=George...J=?...L=Larry...M=Mikey...N=November...Q=Quincy...R=Romeo...Z=Zebra
J is simply Jay
M is Mary not Mikey
Shawn.
According to CNN.com, Congressman Bud Shuster, R-PA, announced he will retire on Jan. 31 because of "health scares." Woo-hoo.
Woo-hoo? Is that a technical term?
From what I've read, he should be in jail.
I hear the new chir of the House Transportation Committee is from Alaska. So much for mass transit.
Which is a better location for watching NEC trains go by at speed? Linden NJ, Rahway NJ, or Metropark NJ. I'm going down to one of these stations on friday to photograph some fast trains in the snow. The snow kick-up effect is really cool.
-Dan
nyrail.cjb.net
Rahway or Linden would be better. Most everything stops at Metropark. New Brunswick is scenic too but it's up on embankment, may not be much snow (but you could busgeek the Rutgers bus system while you were there).
-Dave
> busgeek the Rutgers bus system
Oops, forget that, it's winter break.
-Dave
If you want to go further south, Princeton Junction is a very ideal station for you, much better than the stations you mention.
Chaohwa
You want to go to Rahway. Rahway has an island platform that give you good shots of all 6 tracks and UNION tower can make a nice back drop. The only problem might be NJ coast trains stopping for a station stop and or slowing for the flyunder. Linden is a Corridor Line local only stop.
Following is a somewhat literary account of my trip on Acela Express, which took place between New York and Washington, DC on the evening of Friday, December 22, 2000. Having been away for the week between Christmas and New Year's Day, I have not had time to post to the board till now. Please accept my apologies if I rehash other posters' observations, as I have neither had time to read many of the messages since returning home. Here goes…
After arriving at Penn Station, my wife and I decided to sit in the Metroliner waiting area. We were early and had an hour or so to wait for our 9:00 departure, so we sat listening to the spine-gratingly squeaky escalators and shooing away a vagrant trying to sell and out-of-date magazine (how did he get in the seating area anyway?). After 2 or 3 minutes of this nonsense, I decided to ask whether our AE tickets would allow us to wait in the Metropolitan Lounge. "Not technically," said the attendant, but he let us in anyway to wait in relative comfort and quiet. Even though there were more than a couple of kids running around in there, I decided to score one for Amtrak Customer Service.
At about 8:50 or so, we were led, pre-announcement (thank God), to Track 13 (uh-oh), West Gate, to wait to descend. Soon the train was announced, and down we went. As we boarded through the first door we saw, I found that a great many people already occupying seats. I didn't think about the fact that many a passenger might use Acela trains to travel through New York, commonly a terminus for Amtrak trains. My wife and I had to haul our luggage all the way down to the first coach to find 2 seats together. There was plenty of space in the overhead bin for my mid-sized rolling suitcase, my coat, and our backpacks. We were also lucky enough to find rack space in the forward luggage tower for my wife's larger suitcase.
In a few moments, we were heading into the Hudson tube. I noticed that it was rather bright in the coach, and this was with one side's fluorescent lights off. I much prefer the much dimmer Amfleet lighting, which lends an air of privacy to your trip. In these coaches, I felt like I was in a fish bowl. Also extremely annoying was the 2 hours and 45 minutes worth of muzak, which played over the PA for our entire trip. I asked the conductor about it. According to him, it was supposed to be playing. Why, I do not know. I noticed later, when I walked through the train, that some of the coaches were not playing it. I wished we had been on one of them.
After stopping at Newark, I noticed the automated announcement, "Stand Clear of the Closing Doors." I found this strange for a heavy-rail train. The LED displays and automated station stop announcements within the coach were not working (where have we heard that before?), and when I asked about that, the conductor said something like, "Oh, yeah. I guess you're right." I guess the Acela crews and engineers are still getting the hang of the new train.
As I concentrated on the smoothness of the ride after Elizabeth, I came to the conclusion that it is only a bit smoother than Amfleet equipment, but I think this has more to do with the infrastructure than the train. Later on in the trip, when there were more curves than there are in New Jersey, I could not feel the tilt while sitting. However, I could definitely detect it while standing up or walking, though it was only mild.
Before long, I overheard a man in the seat in front of me say to his seatmate, "Not as much room as advertised. Seems tighter than a Metroliner." I leaned up and had to interject, "Still beats coach on an airplane." He agreed.
After fiddling around a bit, the crew was eventually able to dim our cabin (cabin?!), I mean coach, somewhat after we had left Trenton. Thankfully, this made it easier to see out the window. But by that time, hunger had overtaken us, so I decided to try the café car for some snacks. As I walked backward through the train, I noticed that the couplings are so sealed off you can hardly tell where one car begins and the other ends. I walked through 3 or 4 of those sliding glass doors (a la "Get Smart" or "Star Trek"-whoooosh) and arrived at the Bistro car. There I got myself a cheeseburger, the wife a chicken wrap, some chips, and a soda. (All were passable.) I found it ironic that in highest of high-tech trains, the café attendant was using a manual calculator and a cardboard box for a cash register. I commented on this and was informed with a half-smile that I was not the first to point this out. I returned to my seat to munch and watch us zoom by the cars on I-95 between Trenton and Philadelphia. I concluded we must have been going over 100 mph. We soon arrived in Philly to see the second AE trainset sitting there in the yard, all aglow.
After leaving Philadelphia, between there and the Elmwood Carhouse, I noticed a huge fire blazing in the southwestern part of the city. I imagine the glow could be seen for miles. I later read in the papers that this giant fireball was some kind of gas pipeline rupture (there were no injuries, thankfully). Already having seen more than I expected, I finally caught my awaited glimpse of the neat rows of Kawasakis and PCCs at Elmwood.
It was then that nature called and I headed forward to try out the gigantic restroom, but not before taking a peak into the power car. If you shield the light, you can look in to see the machinery, a series of dimly-lit pipes and guages. Though this was very cool, I had no idea what I was looking at.
I soon finished what I had to do and returned to my seat to watch one of the crew members head to the head. Because I felt like it, and because I had noticed, I decided to mention to him that the red "occupied" indicator light did not come on when he was inside. I explained that I was simply concerned about a customer being unwittingly surprised by other passengers. (I had had the misfortune to do the surprising on my recent trip to the loo, but fortunately, the young lady was merely washing her hands at the time!) A few minutes later, an older fellow in a blue blazer with a nametag came down the aisle to check it out. They managed to jimmy the lock to make the red light come on, but I'm not sure passengers know to go through that kind of trouble. They seemed thankful for my concern, at least to my face. Who knows how I might have been ridiculed while out of earshot.
I returned to my seat to discover my unusual 2-setting reading lamp. I also realized that there were plugs for a headset, yet none were provided. I guess you have to bring your own. Thankfully, no one was yacking on his cell phone this trip, so I didn't really miss it. I never had a chance to inquire about this, so I'm still wondering. I looked out the window for a good while then and noticed a lot of flashing, which I can only assume was the pan arcing.
I soon decided to wander again and found myself back in the Bistro car. There I met a technician named Dave, whom I found at the conductor's closet. The display was showing the doors at the time, since we were stopped at Baltimore. Unfortunately, I did not get to see the speedometer (no great loss as we were in the lower, 135mph corridor anyway). Dave and I got to chatting, and I told him I had been "doing some reading." When I asked him how they solved the truck-hunting problem (they changed the wheel profile), he seemed taken aback, "Wow, you have been reading!" I guess he was not used to a knowledgeable passenger, and he seemed young enough that he probably has yet to become jaded towards us foamers. I'm sure that will change as he gets older. In our discourse, I learned that the reason for the slow speed on the southern portion of the NEC was both track and catenary related. After I listened to the café attendant complaining about "always having to ride backwards," I learned from Dave that they use wyes in both Boston and D.C. to turn the train in order to use "the better power car." Please forgive me for not remembering the number of the lead car in our consist. I will have to get my film developed to find out. Finally, after passing several laid-up HHP-8s in the yard outside of Union Station, we arrived on time to meet my sister and her husband for our ride to their Virginia home. (We would have taken Metrorail, but we had unwieldy luggage.)
My Review
Overall, the main highlight of the train was that it was new. The NY to DC speed is not all that much better than a Metroliner, and the coaches are perhaps only equally as comfortable. (As a matter of fact, there seemed to be random placement of fabric color on the seats. Some were a little greener, some bluer.) Also, it is somewhat difficult to manage the seat-back pocket due to the configuration of the tray-table in stow mode. The ride is a bit smoother, but the lighting is too bright, especially for night-viewing. That infernal muzak has got to go too! The spacious overhead bins are nice, but, as I discovered later, my wife's bigger suitcase will fit in an Amfleet overhead, but not in the AE's. I suppose this is not much of a concern for business travelers, although most of the travelers on that late-evening, holiday-weekend train were decidedly not business travelers at all. Having had the experience, I would probably choose Metroliner or Acela Regional over Acela Express when travelling between NY and Washington, simply in order to save the money. I do plan to take AE someday soon to Boston so I can experience that 150mph speed in Rhode Island. As far as the southern NEC, I recommend riding once for the bragging rights, but not again till they can upgrade the infrastructure.
I recommend riding once for the bragging rights, but not again till they can upgrade the infrastructure.
How could they upgrade it? Its the Standard Infrastructure of the World.
Replace the obsolete and worn-out catenary
Install moveable frog switches
Redo the signal system to support ACSE
Fix the crumbling bridges and tunnels
Replace Penn Station (NY)
Restore Penn Station (Newark)
Realign that stupid S curve in Elizabeth (?)
Realign the equally stupid S curve around North Philly
Remove the crumbling remnants of the old North Philly station
Replace the various catenary poles that have been wacked, bent, rusted, or twisted
Upgrade the power system to 60hz like it should have been 20 years ago
Remove the old, unneeded track structures and buildings along the ROW
Finish off concrete tieing the tracks
Even more radical - make the local tracksd next to each other and have every NJT stop an island platform, that way the express tracks can be next to each other and the interlockings can be simplified and smoother, plus there wouldn't be any need for locals to cross in front of expresses.
"Replace the obsolete and worn-out catenary"
The current cat is of far higher quality and looks much nicer than modern cat. The FRA is just a wuss.
"Install moveable frog switches"
I'd make re-installing all the old X overs a higher priority. 'Sides, those are lame.
"Redo the signal system to support ACSE"
Or just install 2 new cab signals. Satalite systems are prone to failure.
"Fix the crumbling bridges and tunnels"
Just because its looks crublming dosen't mean its going to fall down. All that old stuff was overengineered enough to tolerate a rather large amount of crumble. Look at the Slateford Cuttoff, that baby will never come down. Heck, every RR RoW has got the crumbles.
"Replace Penn Station (NY)"
With what, your ass or a hole in the ground? j/k Do you mean the station or the tracks or both. The tracks are the best possible design. BTW I was looking at a map and I found room for 2 more east river tubes at the end of the NJT tracks (1-4). The other tubes run under city streets and a tunnel at tracks (1-4) could mirrior the LIRR tubes on the north side.
"Restore Penn Station (Newark)"
What, the concourse or the tracks? Because they are already restoring parts of it. BTW is this really necessary for faster service?
"Realign that stupid S curve in Elizabeth (?)"
Bite you tounge! That's the most photogenic stop on the line!
"Realign the equally stupid S curve around North Philly"
What equally stupid S-curve? N. Philly is a large interlocking that will never see hi-speed service. Its close to ZOO and is hemmed in with industrial blight. You'll never see more than a 55-60 mph speed limit and that is possible w/ an S curve.
"Remove the crumbling remnants of the old North Philly station"
Why, it might grow to incorporate those remnents? Also in case you didn't know that's how old things are disposed in Philly. Its called the Philly Forget and you can see other examples at 30th St. and Suburban stations.
"Replace the various catenary poles that have been wacked, bent, rusted, or twisted"
I haven't seen (m)any of those. It is really a problem?
"Upgrade the power system to 60hz like it should have been 20 years ago "
Is there really an advantage to 60Hz power besides not having to pay conversion costs? I find it good that Amtrak has a self-contained power supply.
"Remove the old, unneeded track structures and buildings along the ROW"
Why pay money to remove something you'll probably end up needing later. BTW the only buildings along the RoW are interlocking towers and all of those are MoW bases or relay rooms.
"Finish off concrete tieing the tracks"
Blame SEPTA.
Ok, your radical plan is just plain nuts. Do you know how a 4-track main line is suposted to work? Depending on the time of day you can run the tracks in a comming-going 3-1, 2-2 or 1-3 arrangement. The current setup allows for maxium flexibility. BTW Locals are rarely put in front of Amtrak trains. Amtrak trains are frequently put on the local track behing a local. Island platforms require a fattening of the RoW, overhead walkways and reduced train speeds. Also your plan would hinder NJT express trains and local Amtrak trains.
/*The current cat is of far higher quality and looks much nicer than modern cat. The FRA is just a wuss.*/
WRONG. Please, every time it gets cold out, NJT and Amtrak are forever tied up because of a dam dewirement on the NEC. How many of those do you hear happening in the upgraded (NY) portion of the New Haven Line? Oh yeah, and they're finally tearing out that triangle shit above Port Chester asnd replaceing it with real catenary. New poles are going up, and they're already bolting up the supports, etc.
/*I'd make re-installing all the old X overs a higher priority. 'Sides, those are lame. */
Crossovers are high maintenance, don't allow for high speeds, and are rough. That's why they've all been replaced with switches.
/*Or just install 2 new cab signals. Satalite systems are prone to failure.*/
Whatever. Even the LIRR's ASC has a wider range than Amtrak's.
/*
Just because its looks crublming dosen't mean its going to fall down. All that old stuff was
overengineered enough to tolerate a rather large amount of crumble. Look at the Slateford Cuttoff,
that baby will never come down. Heck, every RR RoW has got the crumbles.*/
Um, the Baltamore tunnels are in need of replacement, the NY tunnels are getting bad, and there's at least one bridge in Maryland that needs replacement. Overbuilding something doesn't stop the effects of corrosion and reppeated stree cycles.
/* Do you mean the station or the tracks or both.*/
The station, and slightly realign the tracks to straighten out the LIRR platforms.
/*The tracks are the best possible design.*/
Debatesable. When the station was new and the West Side yard diudn't exist, it was the right design, now though, there's lots of dead wood that can probbably be pulled out. BTW,there's a Penn Central era stainless steel train car sitting in Penn. been there for who knows how long.
/* BTW I was looking at a map and I found room for 2 more
east river tubes at the end of the NJT tracks (1-4). The other tubes run under city streets and a
tunnel at tracks (1-4) could mirrior the LIRR tubes on the north side.
*/
This should be done, but then, if Amtrak was better at running Penn, it probbably wouldn't be needed.
/*What, the concourse or the tracks? Because they are already restoring parts of it. BTW is this really
necessary for faster service?
*/
Both. And hey, Newark is a hidden gem. It's just grimy and all.
/*Bite you tounge! That's the most photogenic stop on the line! */
It's also a stupid slow down.
/*I haven't seen (m)any of those. It is really a problem? */
Yes, they look bad and they're bound to come down sooner or later.
/*
Is there really an advantage to 60Hz power besides not having to pay conversion costs? I find it
good that Amtrak has a self-contained power supply.*/
Lighter equipment, ability to shop around for electricity, I've heard the AEM-7s do better on 60Hz. No need to buy hundred million dollar conversion plants, ability to take power from multiple sources, creating a redundant system. The 25hz system is dead.
When I say crossover I mean an interlocking plant with the ability to cross from any track to any other track. Also AE should be able to take the elizabeth curve at a faster speed with its tilting ability.
Many of your proposals seem to assume that Amtrak has oodles and oodles of cash to spend. I wouldn't be surprised if the employees don't run to the bank to cash their paycheques before the money is all gone.
>>>...and looks much nicer than modern cat. <<<
Looks do not matter. Functionality does
>>>Bite you tounge! That's the most photogenic stop on the line! <<<
Railroads should be built to transport passengers to their destinations as quickly as possible. Not for Photo-Ops.
Peace,
ANDEE
Looks matter, too. Of course, functionality matters more. Still, it's nice to have both when we can.
This is true'
Peace,
ANDEE
Music??? They didn't have music on my train.
As for the bathroom, I walked in on people because the locks themselves didn't work right. I took the northbound train from NY to Boston and also noticed many people traveling through New York.
How is the cafe car attendant riding backwards? On my train, the attendant was at the north end of tha car.
Interior signs announcing the next stop were working in some cars and not others on my train. I saw one that said Washington was the next stop.
My post was posted on December 31st (I think) if you wish to refer to it.
>>>Music??? They didn't have music on my train. <<<
I was hoping someone would say this. It proves my theory that the crew really didn't quite know what they were doing yet with the new train. The crew member I "complained" to was probably just blowing me off by telling me that the music was supposed to be on. A**hole.
>>>As for the bathroom, I walked in on people because the locks themselves didn't work right. I took the northbound train from NY to Boston and also noticed many people traveling through New York.<<<
Did you mention anything to the crew? Maybe if enough of us say something, they'll do a redesign. The Blue Blazer man et al seemed very interested in making sure the insides of their brand new train were working properly. I think it's still close enough to the beginning of the new service that they still care about customer feedback.
>>>How is the cafe car attendant riding backwards? On my train, the attendant was at the north end of tha car. <<<
As you know, on AE, the "kitchen" is situated such that the front counter faces the end of the car as opposed to facing the side as in an Amfleet II Cafe. It just so happened that the counter was facing aft on my trip.
>>>Interior signs announcing the next stop were working in some cars and not others on my train. I saw one that said Washington was the next stop. <<<
I did see the YELLOW electronic signs just inside the coach doors. They had 3 "readouts" in a single panel for displaying the major end-stops, like "BOSTON," "NEW YORK," & "WASHINGTON, D.C." But these did not change with each stop made (I mean like the way the R-142 is supposed to work). What I did not see working were the RED LED displays, overhead, at the end of each car.
I think they don't really yet have the hang of the new train yet. Or at least the people who do know every nut and bolt haven't bothered to train the crews well enough.
Criminee! They've had over a year to train these people!
The overhead LED signs were yellow, not red and displayed nothing worth reading, unlike on the Amfleet. What I wanted to see was automated announcements and the announcements would be displayed visually on the LED displays, sort of like on buses. For instance, as the automated announcement said "We are now approaching Philadelphia's 30th Street Station. Passengers detraining at Philadelphia's 30th Street Station should check the area around them for their personal belongings at this time. Please remember there is a small gap between the train and the platform. Thank you for riding Amtrak's Acela Express number 2150", the LED would say:
We are now approaching Philadelphia's 30th Street Station. Passengers detraining at Philadelphia's 30th Street Station should check the area around them for their personal belongings at this time. Please remember there is a small gap between the train and the platform. Thank you for riding Amtrak's Acela Express number 2150.
While that was done automatically, the conductors could help passengers with their baggage.
I didn't mention anything to the crew, mainly because they weren't interested or didn't understand I was a railfan. Also, some transit employees get annoyed with me after awhile.
Interesting post. Why not edit it and send it to Amtrak's president? Can't hurt (they won't keep you from buying another ticket) and if enough people do, maybe you'll see incremental improvements.
I've been cross-country several times on Amtrak, and up and down both coasts. I've been a regular on Metroliners and conventional trains. Most crews try hard to please customers, and I have heard them voice frustration (privately to me) that they want to offer better service but the equipment problems they faced were not going to be fixed anytime soon. One example of this was in the form of a grizzled old cook on the Empire Builder, who couldn't prepare the dinner sirloin because the grill was out - so he prepared chicken fried steak instead ("Amtrak don't want to fix nuthin" was his complaint). But his genuine respect for the passengers, and his outstanding crew chief's attitude, more than made up for it.
I haven't ridden Acela yet, but I will soon.
>>>Most crews try hard to please customers, and I have heard them voice frustration (privately to me) that they want to offer better service but the equipment problems they faced were not going to be fixed anytime soon. <<<
I believe you are right. But if this is the case, all I would ask is an honest answer. That way, should I write to Amtrak about the service, as you suggest, I would know where to place the blame. In other words, I would have more information to give Amtrak, and they in turn would be better able to direct their resources in the fixing the problem (in a perfect world, of course).
Not to go on a tirade here, which, of course, means that I'm about to, but it bothers me when people customer service positions are directed to treat their customers as ingnorant fools rather than intelligent adults. It's especially grating when I am in their corner, as is the case with me and Amtrak.
Incidentally, this is a major complaint of air travelers. It's not so much the fact that the plane is delayed, but rather that the airlines can't tell them why!
And before I hear, "You get what you pay for," from anybody, let me interject that customer service is a people thing, not a pay thing. It's about common courtesy. It's why you hold the door for a lady who is 10 steps behind you. She's not paying you, but you still respect her. I've held all kinds of jobs in my life, from the most menial service job to the white-collar position I have now. At no time did I ever feel as though I should treat my customers like they were idiots!
I can empathize with your feelings. Absolutely share them with Amtrak. Rather than looking to place blame, though, try to make it a positive, constructive letter showing what went right and what needs to be improved. You can't lose for doing it, and someone at Amtrak will read it - even if they won't do anything about it right away.
>>>Rather than looking to place blame, though, try to make it a positive, constructive letter showing what went right and what needs to be improved.<<<
Of course. I should have said "ascertain responsibility" rather than "place blame." I certainly wouldn't use the syntax I sometimes use in this forum in correspondence with any service provider! Especially if I was serious about being listened to.
The following is HEARSAY (from a fairly reliable source, but hearsay nonetheless).
The first class of Off-the-street TOs will be called for 22 January 2001. The second class will be called for 26 February 2001.
Once again, the preceding is RUMOR only at this time.
I saw R33s 8836-8845 on #4 and were pasted with orange stickers during Christmas holidays. Is this train a permanant move to Jerome line?
Chaohwa
Orange stickers would seem to indicate that this a permanent move. I spotted 8838 and 39 mixed in with the usual fleet of Jerome Av R-33s sometime ago.
On a related manner, I spotted 8846-55 this evening, and judging by the previous set of cars sent over to the 4, I'd guess Jerome Av has just gained an additional set for service. Will check to confirm this and see if there's anything out of the ordinary.
-Stef
...perhaps to cover for the "crash-and-snap"
set of r62a's damaged in the recent bump?
Good point. I thought of that, but of 15 of the 20 R-62 cars involved in the accident should have returned to service at one point or another.
-Stef
OK, I admit it, I haven't been following subtalk for awhile and don't live in NYC, so what's all this about V and W trains? More specifically, what's this about closing Grand Street? Does this have anything to do with the continued revitalization of the Manhattan Bridge? Anyone who'd like to shed some light on this will make me a happy boy. Thanks!!!
The're not closing Grand St. The V is a proposed Queens Blvd local to 53st and down 6th ave, while the F goes via 63st to 6th. As for the W, simply pull out a subway map from around 1987 and replace the yellow B D and Q with diamond W, round Q, diamond Q (respectively).
I was wondering if u guys wanted to take a Vote on this. I Like GE controllers because of how loud they are, and I believe they are faster! I was on a Westinghouse led R32 E once and it reached 40. ILL! Then I rode a R32 E with a GE Controller. Everytime the Operator hit the full service, it makes a sound that ONLY a GE makes!. Also, when a GE dumps, it is louder and better. A Westinghouse is too quiet!. I like loud Trains! Westinghouse is quiet, but I hear they are lighter weight. The only Westinghouse controllers I like are the ECAM controllers found on the R62A! No place better to hear a ECAM Controller dump is the 42nd street Shuttle!
Layta,
E to JAMAICA CENTER, 5546 R46
Whoa, what are you talking about? First, the fact that a car has GE or Westinghouse controller has nothing to do with how loud it is when the train dumps. Second, the R-32s have not had westinghouse controllers since 1988. Third, the E-cams are also on the R-68s. Finally, I doubt that you could tell by the way the car accelerated or by the sound it made in multiple, what type of controller it has.
>>>First, the fact that a car has GE or Westinghouse controller has nothing to do with how loud it is when the train dumps.<<<
Actually it does. An R32 train with a GE controller dumps louder than a R32 train with a Westinghouse controller.
>>>Second, the R-32s have not had westinghouse controllers since 1988.<<<
I used one last night.
Actually it does. An R32 train with a GE controller dumps louder than a R32 train with a
Westinghouse controller.
Train Dude cut-n-pasted the previous poster's erroneous lingo:
controller vs group switch.
When the R32s were GOH'd, the group switch was upgraded to GE
SCM-1, including cars that previously carried WH pneumatic CAM
packages. The master controllers are GE on Phase I rebuilds
and WH on Phase II. There were several other contract variations
between the rebuild phases including the HVAC equipment and
the air brakes. The Phase II cars have NYAB packages under
the floor and Phase I have WABCO. I don't recall what was
done with the ME42B brake valves. The NYAB cars have sort
of a "sneeze" emergency dump and the Phase I/WABCO cars
sound more like a flush.
On the subject, do the Coney Island R42s still have that ear shattering blast from the EMVs in the number 1 cab when the emergency brake is applied?
Actually it's the M&K R42's that blow your ears out. The CI 42's as well as all 40's just give a "gshhhh".
Thanks for answering a question that I've been meaning to ask Jeff.
I've always wondered why the R32's with GE and WH controllers have different brake packages. Now I know.
Zman - it's back to school car for you. R-32s do not have westinghouse controllers. All 594 R-32s have GE SCM-1 controllers. There are approximately 290 R-32 Phase II cars that have Westinghouse master controllers - hardly the same thing.
I interpreted the original post from "E to Jamaica Center" to mean to discuss master controllers. The point being made here is that an R32 with a westinghouse master controller does indeed dump quieter than a R32 with a GE master controller. I thought that's what he meant in his post.
P.S. Send me back to school car anyway. I could use a few days off the road!
Will do Zman and the first thing to teach you is the difference between the P2A and the SCM
What you are actually hearing is the difference in the EMV ports between the R-32 Phase I and R-32 Phase II. That is the valve mounted behind your head in the cab. You may also detect a slight difference from the pilot valve, the device in the master controller that is referred to as the "dead-man's feature".
BTW: For our politically correct friends, why have they not changed the name of this device to something like ITOEBA "incapacitated train operator emergency brake activator"?
Probably because they would have to define "incapacitated" and that would require an "electronic breathalyzer interface" (EBI) as well as a "randomized voluntary urinary depository device" (RVUDD) in order to determine the extent and type of incapacity ... either way, you're a randomly-gendered deceased personage.
On the mighty diesel, we just call them the mushroom. Step on it and bliss ensues. Fail to step on it and you get to explain it to NTSB. Or someone else.
Nonsense aside, there is nothing that makes me feel better than hearing an R1/9 do a brake release. Even BIE is music. Any chance of getting some handle time on one at one of the museums? As much as playing with 6k HP powered by dinosaurs is fun, there is nothing I enjoyed more than my days on the IND when those three magic letters MEANT something and there was such a thing as "Houston Express" and Hudson Terminal.
Any chance of getting some handle time on one at one of the
museums?
Join the Branford Shore Line Trolley Museum and, as a
member, you'll be entitled to come up on Members' Day (last
Saturday in April) and run our R-9 or Lo-V.
Ask heypaul to make a copy of his R-9 tape recording for you. You get all those marvelous R-1/9 sounds and can relive those good old days with a touch of a button.
>>>...like ITOEBA "incapacitated train operator emergency brake activator"? <<<
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
Coast guard rescue as I post! Story was on Channel 5 a few minutes ago.
Should we get together and start a DUKW service?
DUKW?
DUKW's are WWII amphibious vehicles that look like tanks.
There is a tour company in Boston called Boston Duck Tours (DUKW=Duck) that operates these vehicles on a land-water tour (it tours the streets of Boston, then dips in the Charles River for a short sail). I've been on it the past couple times I was in Boston, and loved it! The guides are very entertaining and funny. In fact, it appears that the whole thing is a tongue-in-cheek operation.
On a trip downtown on the #5 train, I noticed sprinklers on the Southbound track bed just north of I think it was The Fulton St. Station. The sprinklers were on as the train rolled over that section of track. Why are they there? Does the undercarriage equipment get that hot? If it is not to cool down equipment, during the winter's cold temp spraying the undercarraige like that freeze up some of the equipment?
Seeking the Sprinklers, eh?
See: 14st. Union Square @ Southbound 5th Car
The sprinklers are on the roadbed to lessen the amount of noise the train makes on the rails as it rounds the curve coming into the station. Whenever a train approaches the station, the sprinklers spray water on the running rails to cut down on the amount of decibels that you and I must endure while waiting on the platforms for a train.
I saw this morning a sad sight @ Broadway Junction: the grand green tower of 'East New York Junction' has been razed completely. There is little sign that one was even there. It's amazing how fast these contractors worked considering the weather conditions the past few days.
Another rapid transit 'landmark' is lost.
BMTman
I can only relate..
I thought the same of a green tower
seen midtrack north of E. 180 Street.
Lit by sunlight over a snowcast ground,
the tower surely looked classical..
What about Atlantic Av? Is that completely wiped out too?
-Stef
that too is going if it is not gone already.
No, the skeleton is still standing.
BMTman
According to someone who "lurks" here that tower had landmark status, wrong again I guess.
Peace,
ANDEE
Landmark status does not mean that it can't be torn down, just that there is a lot more red tape in doing so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse:
As you seem to be someone with familiarity with legal statutes, I would like to ask you just what would have to be done to remove/alter a landmark. Thanks very much!
-cordially,
turnstiles
Well, I have some familiarity with preservation law simply because I own an old house (locally landmarked, not a National Register listing) and because I have an interest in preserving viable old buildings. I am NOT a lawyer and am in no way offering any legal opinions.
With that formality out of the way... the answer is: it depends. If it is listed on the National Register of Historic Places, it cannot be demolished or altered in a way that would compromise the character or historical integrity of the structure or the structure's immediate environment using tax money. It would also prevent a private owner from taking tax credits for the use of the structure, even if such credits were unrelated to the historic status of the building. In addition, there are many local preservation ordinances which may have an impact on a structure. None of these ordinances can prevent the removal of a building, but they can restrict the alteration of an existing structure and (much like a zoning ordinance) can impact the use of the property after an existing structure is removed.
National Register listing requires the consent of the property owner at the time the listing is made so, contrary to popular belief, old Penn Station could not have been saved that way. A strong local preservation ordinance, however, would have saved it - and is what ultimately saved Grand Central. Structures can be de-listed; however, doing so for reasons other than significant damage or destruction doesn't usually occur.
Publicly-owned structures on the National Register face more significant obstacles when major modifications are needed, since by definition tax money is involved. In many cases this will involve a hearing in the court system - typically before an administrative law judge - to determine if the changes requested are essential to the public interest. The public has the opportunity to challenge the findings of the judge and can file suit to overturn the judge's ruling or parts of it. This process can be quite costly, on both sides, and consequently the governmental body involved either (1) takes action only when it is sure that there will be no public opposition and when there is a very clear case for public good, or (2) takes massive destructive action covertly, then says "well, there's nothing left worth saving", and gets what they want that way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess the MTA got away with the removal of the Third Avenue Railway trolleybarn (Kingsbridge Depot) or the City's removal of the Thunderbolt by smashing the buildings before the court hearings. This is a popular practice of Rudy Guiliani as he evicted squatters then wrecked their buildings before the courts could get out the restraining orders. Once the buildings department considers a structure unsafe, taking it down is easier. Are there any penalties that can be levied in the latter for taking illegal destructive action? I would suppose that if the City of New York issued a permit of destruction with an address of a historical landmark, then any demolition should be considered illegal.
This is a popular practice of Rudy Guiliani as he evicted squatters then wrecked their buildings before the courts could get out the restraining orders.
Good! We don't need some limousine liberal judge allowing those squatters to continue to live illegally.
[Good! We don't need some limousine liberal judge allowing those squatters to continue to live illegally.]
Easy for you to say -- you're not out on the street!
And besides, alot of those city properties were going to pot. Yet, the squatters fixed them up (at least some of them did) but once the city sees that they can get some $$$$ for the buildings, the squatters get booted! Sure, it wasn't their property, but there has to be some give-and-take in situations like that.
BMTman
Why are the squatters spending their money fixing properties they don't have control over? They can spend it getting an apartment.
[Why are the squatters spending their money fixing properties they don't have control over? They can spend it getting an apartment.]
Have you seen the prices for apartments lately? You CAN fix up an apartment for a 'few dollars' (to make it livable). But to rent can be in the thousands. Just thought I'd point that out...
BMTman
There are always outer areas, roommates, and boarding houses.
re solutions to high NYC rents
There are always outer areas, roommates, and boarding houses.
And moving to the Sunbelt
And moving to the Sunbelt
Maybe if a cemetery plot is too expensive. But then there are plenty of bridges with walkways in New York.
>>>Maybe if a cemetery plot is too expensive.
Pork:
A cemetary plot? As a place for squatters to go - you must be joking.
-cordially,
turnstiles
No. I'm not saying squatters should die! I'm just putting death before moving to the sunbelt in a list of alternatives for people.
I'm not insulting squatters, I'm insulting the Sunhell.
No. I'm not saying squatters should die! I'm just putting death before moving to the sunbelt in a list of alternatives for people.
The hundreds of thousands of people who've moved to the Sunbelt would beg to disagree. Most of them probably are kicking themselves for not having moved years earlier.
Peter, Be my guest -- Actually, I like Tennessee
Actually, Peter, the scores of thousands of tons of white crap (snow) just within a mile's radius of my house convinces me that I'd like to go down there.
For something that usually only takes place for three months, that's not a valid reason.
I'd rather plow snow every weekend than have to run the air conditioner 24/365.
I feel the same way. Actually I enjoy some cold weather as long as it doesn't stay severe too long..sometimes does, sometimes doesn't. Four seasons are more interesting than warm all year.
Admittedly I was still young -34-when I moved from New York to Montana but still enjoying 4 seasons was part of the program.
(Actually, Peter, the scores of thousands of tons of white crap (snow) just within a mile's radius of my house convinces me that I'd like to go down there.)
Better go all the way down. Oklahoma (where my parents live) and Memphis (where a friend's parents live) have gotten socked this year. Come to think of it, none of the people I know who moved to Brooklyn FROM the sunbelt want to go back there, either.
I just hope our representatives concentration on cutting off the money to the "welfare states" now that they no longer have the power to tell them what to do. If Wyoming needs revenue, let it fill in Jackson Hole by turning it into a landfill. That would just encourage more people to vacantion in the Adirondaks.
The hundreds of thousands of people who've moved to the Sunbelt would beg to disagree. Most of them probably are kicking themselves for not having moved years earlier.
I never give beggars anything. They should learn to support themselves.
I doubt that the Third Avenue barn was on the National Register, though, nor was it likely to have been covered by any preservation ordinance. Also, the owner of the Thunderbolt had explicitly refused landmark designation. And you're absolutely right - once the buildings department has deemed a structure unsafe, removal is much easier. Landmark or no, if the private owner won't maintain it, the government is not obligated to do so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>Also, the owner of the Thunderbolt had explicitly refused landmark designation.
And this the same owner who later complained about the demolition of the Thunderbolt.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Correct. It's debatable whether or not the Thunderbolt would have been deemed eligible anyway, but one of the C.I. preservation groups had offered to do the application on his behalf; he wasn't interested. Given the number of changes that had been made to it over the years (and the amount of reconstruction it would have required to make it operational again) obtaining landmark status was probably no better than a 50-50 shot.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse:
Oh well, the Cyclone still soldiers on.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Archetectural Preservationists should work to raise funding for their projects. but don't ask me for anything because MY efforts and donations go EXCLUSIVELY to OPERATNG rail museum projects. (track, cars and locomotives)
I do some of both. I got my first taste of hands-on historic preservation when I became involved in the fight to save Poughkeepsie's historic City Hall in 1973 and the ex-NYC railroad station at Poughkeepsie in 1974. Both of these battles, fortunately, were successful; had we lost the fight to save the railroad station, today's hordes of commuters would have just an unattended shelter to wait in. I've also been part of some less-successful efforts in North Carolina. Now I do my part by owning and living in a house built somewhere between 1690 and 1768 (I think 1756 is the most credible date) that looks much as it did after an extensive renovation in 1937. We'll be returning the exterior to a closer resemblance to its 1850 appearance (after the "new" section was added - built around 1810 as a separate house, it was moved and attached to the older structure around 1850) either this year or next when we replace the existing roof with a standing-seam metal one. The interior will still be closer to 1937, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I only work on locomotives, rolling stock, track and shops for OPERATING museums NO STATIONS, not now, not ever. Good thing you saved Poughkeepsie though, 'Mouse.
You guys have missed an important point: The owner didn't want the 'Thunderbolt' landmarked for the simple reason that he was in negotiations with another amusement park owner to disassemble the 'Thunderbolt' so it could be moved to a new (out of state) location. Obviously, landmarking the rollercoaster would have meant an end to his plans.
The Mayor got his way -- as usual -- with strong-arm tactics.
BMTman
BMTman:
Ah! Now that is beginning to make sense - I was not aware of that. Which amusement park was this, by the way?
And yes, our illustrious mayor certainly made his presence.
-cordially,
turnstiles
turnstiles: I don't recall, but I'll have to see if I still have the local Brooklyn newspaper that had this front-page story (it was a big piece).
BMTman
BMTman:
Thanks!
-cordially,
turnstiles
Most interesting - especially the portion about Penn Station. Thanks!
-cordially,
turnstiles
Good point.
Since the tower was NYCT PROPERTY, they could do whatever they want with it, irregardless of the structure having some kind of 'landmark status'. If the structure is in the way of 'progress' as they see fit, well then you're likely to hear the famous 'TIMBER!' yell at some point.
Sad but true...
BMTman
The tower on the 3 between Junius and Pennsylvania will be gone in a few weeks, too.
I can see that tower from my window. I got to start getting the pics going since I missed the NL tower.
Train#1988Mike
Has heypaul ever mentioned anything to you about wanting a tower to go along with his motorman's cab?:-)
Yeah, and he also mumbled something once about getting his fellow tenants evicted so he could take over their apartments, finish building a complete R-9 car, install an interlocking, and a full-scale replica of a section of the Fulton Street/8th Avenue four-track line....I thought you were aware of his "master plan". ;-)
BMTman
PSSST...PSST, Over here, yea you. I got a sign box for 'ya ... Cheap
Peace,
ANDEE
The only other thing I was aware of was heypaul's desire to put that steam engine in Jersey (IIRC) someone mentioned a while ago in his apartment.
Right now, I'm still picturing his rapid scrolling text and am still snickering.
No you have it all wrong, his next project will be a Greyhound ... not the dog ! It will be a scenic cruiser or at least as much as will fit into his bed room.
Mr t__:^)
Midday Thursday & Friday they're turning half the Fs at Church ave. Most crews don't even realize, signs are set to CI, even announce "next stop Ditmas" while the station PA says "train out of service." They used the departure lights when the trains were leaving. At one point a train wrong-railed onto the express track (OOS).
While walking around Brooklyn Heights in the snowstorm Saturday taking pictures for
www.forgotten-ny.com
I noted that the BMT subway entrance at Clinton and Montague was again sporting a pair of old-fashioned green and white 'Subway' lamps. I am aware that, during the 70s when I was going to school (St. Francis College) there, they were among the last holdouts with those old signs, likely protected by the eternal scaffolding of St. Anns Church. Of course they eventually succumbed.
Are the ones there presently the originals, or are they clever reproductions?
It would be very interesting to see if those subway lamps are actually the originals not reproductions. If they are the originals it would be great to see that at least another piece if history was saved and is still in use at the same time.
BMTJeff
Does anyone know what is located at 215 Montague Street? I'm very interested in knowing. Long ago it used to be the ticket headquarters of the old Brooklyn Dodgers, and I can still hear Red Barber and Connie Desmond tell us we can get out tickets by mail at that address. If anyone knows, let me know.
It's a large branch for EAB (European American Bank).
BTW, you might like to know that a bronze plaque is on the outside of the building that features text and an image of both Ebbett's Field and Jackie Robinson, and mentioning that the home office for The Brooklyn Dodgers was located at that site.
If I get the chance, I'll take a picture for the benefit of those who would like to see it.
BMTman
Thanks Doug! And by all means, please take the picture. I would love to see it.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I agree with you that it would be very interesting to see what is located at 215 Montague St. I believe by reading the message thread the it is presently an EAB bank branch. BTW I have some MP3 files of the organ on the B&B Carousell.
BMTJeff
I would SUSPECT that they are not originals, since the four that are in place are extremely vulnerable to vandalism...
www.forgotten-ny.com
That won't stop me from posting them on Forgotten, since they are very good likenesses, if that's what they are.
It would be very interesting to see if those subway lamps are actually the originals not reproductions. If they are the originals it would be great to see that at least another piece if history was saved and is still in use at the same time.
BMTJeff
I've actually taken pictures of them and it's on my website (www.zdeno.com) under the Borough Hall BMT section.
I believe their reproductions...
-Harry
Well, everyone knows about the F running express in Brooklyn tonight and Tuesday night because of construction on the elevated portion. What few (if any) have mentioned is the G will be running a shuttle from Bed-Nost to Hoyt because of not being able to use the local tracks at Smith-9. The thing is, they can (or once could) turn trains at Bergen st upper level, and if the lower platform was open they could simply transfer to the F there. While writing this I realized that Bergen st tower was probably responsible for that switch, so its useless as well, but it doesn't make sense that switches are still useless after a fire that occurred almost 2 years ago.
They could also build switches from express to local befor Carroll St, run F to Bergen St lower level, then switch to local, G could permanently terminate at Bergen upper level not interfering with F operations.
Arti
what is easier to access , the Bergen Street Upper Level or lower level platform from the street entrences, , one would have to consider which line is used more. The F in this case. also a question reguarding that area. after leaving the bergen street station, does the G rise up and over the F tracks to go into Hoyt/Schmrn.
The track connection from G exists only to local tracks (upper level),
so there are not too many options here.
Arti
AFAIK the F tracks are on top at that monstrosity of a flying junction at Smith and Schermerhorn. Not sure how the A/C and G tracks are intertwined, although the former seem to ramp down into Hoyt-Schermerhorn after leaving Jay St. The Court St. stub tracks are at the bottom.
It would be quite difficult to construct a switch from the lower level (of Bergen Street) to the upper level tracks in time to service Carroll Street ... the tracks are never at the same level until just south of the Carroll Street station! However, these out-of-service switches at Bergen Street (there are 6 of them ... 2 for the upper-level south-end cross-over, 2 for the lower-level south-end cross-over, and the 2 at the junction of the upper- and lower-level tracks at the north end) should be repaired, if for no other reason, to accomodate GO service adjustments.
Speaking of Bergen Street, why didn't they put those little black caption tiles on the station wall when they renovated the station several years back?
- Lyle Goldman
Probably to save a buck or two. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
How do you cut a R-46/44 or a LIRR Mu?
Is cutting a C3 trainset similar? Anyone have experience doing so?
I'll explain the R44/46. I have no clue about MU's.
1) Take down any springs/gates.
2) Place reverser in the forward position and place controller in the emergency position.
3) Take the vapor key, activate the cutting panel by turning it to "on" with the key, then depress the uncouple button.
4) Charge the train.
5) Release the brakes and place the controller in "switching" (keep the reverser in forward). Buff the coupler by momentarily placing forward pressure on the coupler. Move the controller then to "coast", train will then back up off the coupler of the adjoining train and the cut will be made. A slightly different method is used if cutting uphill.
6) Dump the train, place the controller in the "handle off" position and normal the cutting panel by turning the vapor key to off.
I know it's a stupid question but what do the signs that say "W" on the Oyster Bay line mean? Also I notice there appears to be a signal light by the grade crossings. What does that mean?
'Whistle'
-Hank
I guess whistle for a grade crossing.
Announce future transfer to W train extension into Long Island.
--Mark
CP Rail just delivered 6431-6435 to Fresh Pond Yard
Shawn.
What time was that this morning?
Mike told me he heard diesel horn blasts close to midnight last night, so there might have been some movements at Linden yard.
BMTman
It was around 4 AM.
Shawn.
Thanks, Shawn. I will be on the lookout for more 142s as they arrive tonight.
-Stef
Then I think that what was heading down to Linden via the Bay Ridge line at 7:45pm this evening.
Train#1985Mike
Arrived at 9:41PM on Track M, north of Jackson Avenue with Loco 68, RD334 (R-15), and Loco 63 heading up the consist. 6435-34-33-32-31 were trailing with Loco 901 to bring up the end. Out from Linden Yard, up to the East they go!
-Stef
was i surprised a little while ago, when i looked out the window and saw bmtman, with a sewer cover pulling hook, yanking sewer covers from in front of my building...
when i asked him if he were either crazy or recently appointed to a long sought job with the department of environmental protection, he said no... instead he claimed to have found a rare document that had been mislaid inside the recently demolished east new york tower... said document reveals plans in the early part of this century to build a transcontinental underground railroad linking the sheepshead bay racetrack with the west coast santa anita racetrack... rumor has it that it was actually started in 1910 and about 2 miles of it were constructed before the great crash of 1911... if he succeeds in unearthing this tunnel, bmtman hopes to follow in the footsteps of a fellow brooklynite with the same last name...
bmtman hopes to follow in the footsteps of a fellow brooklynite with the same last name...
Jumpman? Who changed his name to Mario after his adventures with Donkey Kong and went on to save the Princess several times.
Much too early in the AM for such humor ... LOL just the same.
Mr t__:^)
You have been the innocent victim of BMTmans campagion of desinformatiom. He, BMTman is snatching those manhole covers, to be use in a new joint venture with Great Rays Pizza and International House of Pancakes. The product, BMTmans secret receipe for giant waffel peppproni mushroom pizza will utilize the manhole covers to imprint the waffel/pizza with a unique New York LOGO for backward tourist.
Free delivery available upon request.
avid
Article from NY Post on condition on Penn Tunnel escape stairways
DIZZY
Peace,
ANDEE
I gotta get me a job in the NY Press ....
--Mark
Are the TA's under-river tunnels any better?
From what I've heard and seen, MUCH better. But not perfect
Peace,
ANDEE
It's inexcusable that such a situation exists. I think the MTA should purchase the tunnels and get it done.
How can we put money before safety??
Easily, its done all the time. To be 100% safe would cost an infinite amount of money.
How can we put money before safety??
Like it or not, everything has a price, everything has a risk. If we lived in a totally-risk free world it would be so bland, so boring, that I personally don't think life would be worth living. At the time the tunnels were constructed that was an acceptable exit strategy, and in many respects it still is. What are the chances of a disaster occurring in the tunnels where such an escape route - even one with ten-wide staircases with landings - would make a difference? Infinitesimally small. Better to invest the money in reducing the risk of such a problem, as far as I am concerned.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
ATTENTION SUBTALKERS:
The Port Authority has scheduled four public hearings on its proposed toll and PATH fare congestion-pricing plan.
The public hearings will begin on January 16. They will be held at the following locations and times:
· January 16: 10 a.m. to 2 p.m., 1 World Trade Center, Oval Room, 43rd Floor, Manhattan.
· January 16: 5 p.m. to 9 p.m., Hudson County Administration Building Annex, Freeholders Chamber, 567 Pavonia Ave., 3rd Floor, Jersey City.
· January 17: 5 p.m. to 9 p.m., College of Staten Island, Williamson Theater, 2800 Victory Boulevard, Staten Island.
· January 18: 5 p.m. to 9 p.m., Holiday Inn, 283 Route 17 South, Hasbrouck Heights.
The Port Authority Board of Commissioners on December 14, 2000 authorized hearings on the proposed toll and fare structure. Following the hearings, the Board will make a formal recommendation to the Governors of New York and New Jersey.
------
I encourage you to show up at the hearing and present your feelings, criticisms ideas etc.
I personally would like the PA to standardize the fare around the prevailing MTA fare and modify all PATH faregates to accept the Metrocard. Also, the PA could sell Metrocards for passengers who not only will use it on PATH but will board MTA trains as well.
The use of Metrocards will allow the future possibility of discounted transfers between the two subway systems.
Let's hope it does bring some kind of regional fare. As I was looking at the fare proposal chart in today's paper that was my first thought. It does seem as though the PATH proposals are leaning that way. Yes it will be $2, but that is only for a one-way fare. Round-trips, 10 trip, and 20 trip cards all are $1.50 per trip. That could be tha initial step in a regional fare including PATH, MTA, and HBLR.
(Yes it will be $2, but that is only for a one-way fare. Round-trips, 10 trip, and 20 trip cards all are $1.50 per trip. That could be tha initial step in a regional fare including PATH, MTA, and HBLR.)
The problem is, if NYC signs a new lease renewing control of JFK and LaGuardia for the Port Authority, the PATH fare will once again, and permanently, be lower than the NYC subway fare.
The way in which the mayor is dealing with the PA the airport lease renewals are not a given. How does that affect the PATH fare proposals, anyway?
(The way in which the mayor is dealing with the PA the airport lease renewals are not a given. How does that affect the PATH fare proposals, anyway?)
JFK and LaGuardia make big profits. Until the 1989-93 recession, bi-state transportation (ie. the bus terminal, PATH, the bridges and tunnels) also made a profit or broke even. In effect, drivers subsidized transit riders for giving up a share of the road. That was more or less "fair." The Port Authority has proposed a big time airport access system and other improvements, using the airport profits and a passenger facility charge.
But the recession hit all the governments in the region. The MTA was forced to cut service, cancel a plan to replace subway cars on a regular (150 to 200 per year) basis (causing the current car shortage), raise tolls to $7.00 round trip, and raise the transit fares to $1.50.
Meanwhile, the Port Authority kept the PATH fare at $1.00 after 1987 (a huge decline when adjusted for inflation) and kept the tolls at $4.00. Bistate transportation started running huge deficits -- in fact the Lincoln Tunnel lost money last year -- so the Port Authority cancelled many of the improvements promised to New York and used the profits from the New York airports to keep the fares and tolls low instead. Note how the PA is not doing anything about transit access to LaGuardia, despite collecting the PFC there.
Cuomo didn't object, because he wanted to help his friend Florio, just as Dinkins didn't object when Cuomo suddenly took $1 billion in school aid away from the City to reduce the budget cuts in other parts of the state. They all lost anyway, but the Republicans have gone on screwing New York City.
Well, the airport leases expire in 2015. If the city takes control of the airports, it earns all those big profits (though it is also unlikely to spend them on transportation in New York). New Jersey wants to keep spending money earned in New York in New Jersey.
So the Port Authority is proposing to raise tolls and fares to a level equal to New York, in the hopes that Giuliani's successor will sign a new lease. As soon as the new lease is signed, however, the New Jersey representatives on the Port Authority Board will presumably once again refuse to approve any fare and toll increases.
Well, the airport leases expire in 2015. If the city takes control of the airports, it earns all those big profits (though it is also unlikely to spend them on transportation in New York). New Jersey wants to keep spending money earned in New York in New Jersey.
Basing current policy on something that'll happen 14 years from now sounds sort of dubious. It may well be that usage at the three airports will be a lot lower then, due to increasing Sunbelt migration, and therefore the airports will no longer be cash cows.
Or Sunbelt migration will stop because all of its resources will have become exhausted. Either that or people will come to their senses and would stop moving to a social wasteland.
No, it's the first one.
It seems there was a jumper at 34th Penn today infront of an E
don't we mean 12-9 ??
YES....TYPEING FASTER THEN I WAS THINKING
So that is why an E was sent via B'way. Thought that was odd.
Yesterday, while waiting for a (Q) in the Lexington Av. station, I saw a service notice saying that the (E)(F)(R) trains would be diverted over the weekend of January 13-15. (E)(F) would run via 6th Av, and would stop at "57th St, Lexington Av, Roosevelt Island, 21st St-Queensbridge, and then resume regular service beginning with 36th St". (R) would do the same from 57th St-7th Av.
Perhaps because this is only temporary (full service expected in August?), the MTA made no mention whatever of this being a new routing. Or is it need-to-knowism or incredible modesty? In any case, the route is apparently ready for use. Why then is service not scheduled until August? Is this intended to be a series of test runs?
Bob Sklar
Service is not scheduled until August because the current reroute is due to necessary work in the 53st tunnel. Once 53st is renovated, full service can begin.
-Hank
Sounds like the perfect time for a subtalker round convention. The "E" will be great for railfanning through the 8th Ave/6th Ave junction then through the new connection.
Who's up for it!
avid
DRAT! I'm having a hernia operation Tuesday the 9th, and the doctor said not to expect to do any normal activity for about a MONTH!! That pretty much precludes drinking, subway riding, hiking in Prospect, Inwood, or my personal favorite, Fort Tryon, or anything else that makes life fun.
It would have fun just to see how people react to seeing their Manhattan-bound train stopping at 21st/Queensbridge instead of Queens Plaza. I bet most subway riders have never even heard of the 63rd Street extension, let alone been on it.
Oh well, I've got cable, VCR and the 'net at home- even though the latter is AOL- Always Off Line. Half the time I can't even access Subtalk at home; I keep getting that "Traffic Jam on The Information Superhighway- Try Again Later" screen. I'm spoiled at work, having Windows and being part of a network.
Oh well, better to be out of commission in January than July.
When the Archer Av tunnel opened, a fair number of riders paid no attention to train destination signs and got a look at the new stations (then had to backtrack to get home).
Hope you feel better soon.
A suggestion from one AOL sufferer -- I mean user -- to another: First, log on to AOL. Then, shut down all of those little extra windows that open up inside the main window. Then minimize AOL. Then start IE or Netscape or some other browser of your choice.
In this configuration, AOL functions solely as an ISP. Since all those traffic jam messages originate within the AOL browser software, no more nasty little messages.
Works for me. Try it. (BTW, you can also start the browser first, so long as you start AOL manually before you try to access a web site.)
Good luck on your operation, Mr Fein. I hope all turns out well
Peace,
ANDEE
I think I will be in New York next Sunday (1/14/01). This is a great chance to see what's going on the 63rd Street connection. Glad to see R32s on E trains!
Chaohwa
Every time I visited NYC[such as the past few hoildays]and traveled by train even though we drive down, I ride the subways. Last trip Ipaid a visit to the 36th street station on the QUEENS BLVD LINE and saw the new connection for the first time compleated. nice work Imight add.As most of you could and would agree, seeing this work come to a end can ether bring tears to your eyes or make you jump for joy. 30 years is along time to wait for a subway line to be finished,and within some circled I travel[Capitol District Transit Authority and some others]in ,the 63rd street''tunnel to nowhere'' has made the CITY the laughing stock. I'm not saying that to be rude,BUT coming from a person who's sister lives in QUEENBRIDGE since 1980 outside the 21st station [41 ave-21st]YOU HAD TO WONDER IF AND WHEN THE T.A. WOULD EVER FINISH THIS LINE. IFyou think about it, it's taken the MTA three decades to finish a litle over 3 miles of subway!!! thats 3 quarters of mine and anyone elses live that was born in the 60s!!!! Oh well, I'm glad to see that its over. thanks for listening kameOUT......
Sunday the 14th might be a good day for me and Anon_e_mouse Jr. If anyone wants to plan something we'll try and join up (no promises, though).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How does this sound? A Round Robin! Meet at WTC at a mutually agreed upon hour, Take "E" [MUST be R/32 for Flat nosed fans] uptown thru switch from 8th Ave. to 6th ave. uptown via 57th, 63rd tunnel, end at Roosevelt. Reverse to " R " local or "E" or "F" express to Queens bridge and change to "R" downtown to Chambers Street. There Used to be a Pretty good Greek place on the corner of Church and Chambers ST. for the hungry rover. Or start at Roosevelt , meet at door to Hidden Phantom platform, or just inside fair controlas close to control gate as possible. Again at agreed upon Hour. I haven't encountered an "R" train of R/32s in a while,but if someone new what was running and when, the flatnoses woudld be happy.
I would be coming in from L.I. so Roosevelt would be my first choice,but would travelto WTC for food or work, no,no,no, I mean to hook up with the rest, if any.
avid.
Looks like an unofficial fieldtrip!
Chaohwa
Looks like, WTC, 10:00am, on Sunday. Start approx. 10:30 , 10:45 latest.
avid
where in wtc?
Why not meet right in front of OCULUS, the giant eye, which is near where the 2/3 transfer is. You can't miss that.
PS I am thinking of joining in provided my Mom is OK, she's in the hospital and I won't know till tomorrow evening just what is up with her - she is facing some tests.
wayne
I hope all turns out well with your mom.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ditto here. My father underwent quadruple bypass surgery four weeks ago today. He's doing fine now.
Actually, I probably could miss it :-) Remind me exactly where it is - I'll be coming up on the Never and Rarely to Cortlandt Street.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was just checking the NFL schedule, on espn.com.
Bad news. Both games are on Sunday. The Giant/viking game is at 12:30 on Sunday . Fox network
The Raider /Raven gsme starts at 4:00pm.
Do you think the Round Robin could be reset for Saturday?
It will take me about 2 Hours to Get back to my couch and remote from NYC. I fear, once again I'll be a wus. Please except my apoligies.
I'll go solo on Saterday, starting out at Roosevelt on which ever comes in first. Walk the walk at Chambers, and return to suberbia. My anonymity virtuously remaining in the shadow world.
tempus Edax Rerum
avid
You would actually delay a Subfan adventure for the Giants, who deserted NY for NJ?
Long live the Dallas Cowboys!!
avid... i'd be down for saturday... this way there would be at least two reality challenged people on the trip... contact me on channel 8 on the shadow's special radio telephone...
Mom has her tests tomorrow, lower GI series to find a nasty leak. Her heart's stable, so I will hope for the best.
OK I think Anon_E_Mouse is on board (double check w/ him) for Sunday at 10:15AM at the Chambers-WTC/H&M station mezzanine at the Oculus artwork.
Who is in?
wayne
Yes, I'm on board... anyone else?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm on standby for the replay..
or re-feed.. of
this G.O.
2 to South Ferry G.O. 9/2000.. :)
I stole a poster for it: "(2) (3) (5) Trains rerouted south of 149-Grand Concorse"...etc. It hangs over my TV, right next to "(E) (F) (R) Devíso de los trenes subterráneos que van hacia Queens". The English version hasn't been posted in my station yet, so I'll have to wait a few days before it "falls off". West 4 had a few extra, they'll never miss one...
If I can find it, I'm there! All the best to your mother, Wayne.
See "Pedis Orbis Sufferes"
avid
Is the Sunday trip also still on as well? Hell, I'll try to make both, although I don't usually see 8:30 AM on Saturdays.
TO my knowledge , yes the Sunday trip is still on. The 08:30 hour was picked on Saturdeay because the attendees are Early worms to catch the Pedis Orbis Round Robin. So far , not counting you , there are three travelers set for Saturday, Looking forward to seeing you if you can make it.
avid
Yes, the Sunday trip is on... see the notice in the Upcoming Events. Avid, if you want yours publicized, send Dave an email - he'll put it there too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why not meet right in front of OCULUS, the giant eye, which is near where the 2/3 transfer is. You can't miss that.
PS I am thinking of joining in provided my Mom is OK, she's in the hospital and I won't know till tomorrow evening just what is up with her - she is facing some tests.
wayne
Round Robin,
Sunday, January 14,2001
Meet Time Range 10:00 - 10:30 Leave approx 10:45 LATEST! Lets be prompt please, It looks like the Giants will be the early game, with the Ravens traveling to the west coast to meet the Raiders.
Meet at the fare control of the "E" terminus at Chambers Street, the exit furthest south, towards the World Trade Center.
Coming from the "N" or "R" , get off at Cortland ST and walk thru the WTC to the "E" or get off at City Hall/Chambers and walk one block west to Church St and get on "E" . Its one of those times an Unlimited use Metrocard comes in handy.
avid
WTC would be better for us... we'll either come in on PATH or, more likely, across the ferry and up from Whitehall Street. If we get the 9 AM boat we can make WTC around 10:15.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
10:15 sounds good, Perhaps a time range from say 10;00 to 10:45 to allow anyone encountering delays. On Sunday . One thing though, is that the sunday of NO football? If so fine. If not I must press for Saterday. Or check the game time first.
avid
>>......the sunday of NO football? If so fine.
foot-what?
Too bad I won't be aroung for that. I would love to be on a train as it switches from one local track to the other south of W. 4th St. Well, I was on a JFK express once which did so, but because I was in the last car, I didn't see the maneuver.
Its a straight line. Remaining on 6th causes you to diverge, as does remaining on 8th. Crossing between in either direction is perfectly straight.
And for those who haven't seen the poster yet (also one at Times Sq)...
It has a red diamond 63st reroute logo on the upper left side. The WEEKEND graphic is on one line and slightly smaller than the normal ones. The poster specifically mentions no transfers to the 4,5,6,G.
I assume the 63rd st shuttle will also be running for customers going the other way.
When I saw the poster it appeared as if the E and F would go express to Roosevelt after the connector. The sign said: E rerouted W4 to Roosevelt, F rerouted 47/50 to Roosevelt, R rerouted 57st to 36st. Either way you go at Queensbridge, you will end up at Roosevelt.
And to those who said there wouldn't be an R via 63rd G.O., kindly admit I was right and you were wrong.
With E/F/R service through 63rd, they have no choice but to run G trains past Queens Plz that weekend in order to facilitate any kind of service between Queens Plz and the rest of the QB line.
With E/F/R service through 63rd, they have no choice but to run G trains past Queens Plz that weekend in order to facilitate any kind of service between Queens Plz and the rest of the QB line.
Not according the MTA website. They will be providing bus shuttles to 21st St. Also, all trains will be running local between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt.
Judging by the services involved, I'd guess that they are replacing/overhauling the local-express crossover just north of the Queens bound Queens Plaza platform. They did have other options. They could have done the work at night and wrong railed through Queens Plaza. However, the MTA adage appears to be: implementing any service improvements as painful as possible so that passengers will stop demanding them.
Thats a big switch , the local/express and the express/layup. Will the T.A. do the whole anchallata, is that spelled right, or just the express/local set? What about the Queens side westbound switches? Were they done ,or do they need doing at a future date?
avid
the correct spelling is enchilada, for your information.
The switches south of Queens Plaza: looks like work area is set up there too; they even have street-lamp style lights with sodium lamps to illuminate the workarea. There was NO "R" this past Saturday.
wayne
Shuttle bus instead of just running the trains through? It really must be important to them to make the people walk through the long passage as much as possible. Sounds sick to me.
They can't run the G through! If they could, don't you think they'd run the R normal? They're working on the switch east of Queens Plaza. No train can go through Queensbound on either the express or the local track.
Judging by the services involved, I'd guess that they are replacing/overhauling the local-express crossover just north of the Queens bound Queens Plaza platform
Judging by the number of work-lights erected in that tunnel stretch I would tend to agree with you on that. I went through that stretch on an "E" train on Saturday - the G.O. diverting "E" and "F" service to the local track was in effect, but our "E" made a battery run from Roosevelt through to 71st Avenue on the express track. Went at a pretty good clip too.
wayne
The next big project is the replacement of the diamond crossover on the Queens bound tracks leaving Queens Plaza. Supplement schedules go into effect on Monday on the daily schedule to provide increased running time due to a slow speed order due to skeletonised track in the switch area. The TA ain't dumb: the riders will be late, but the trains will be on time!
They won't run full time service till August for a number of reasons. Switch replacement at Queens Plaza, work in the 53rd St. tube, new signals have to be placed into service at Queens Plaza and other stuff which I am not privy to. While this work goes on, 53rd St. service will be diverted on weekends and for a few hours during the overnites to 63rd St.
It's official: MTA New York City Transit has stated that the Manhattan Bridge's structural elements cannot support a crossover track between the north and south sides. Therefore, this cannot serve as an alternative to the extensive reroutes planned.
The TA says it is out of alternatives for the plan.
Other fresh ideas out there? Every reasonable option
deserves to be weighed.
Where were they going to put this track? Diagonally across the auto lanes?
Yes, the proposal was to create a temporary grade crossing with a gate. It was a long shot, and as it turns out, the bridge couldn't support it.
A trial balloon, worth floating for consideration.
If you have other ideas, or if this reminded you of others, please post them.
I proposed that as a joke several weeks ago. It was a completely idiotc idea and I can't believe that anyone has taken it seriously. Perhaps I think too much like the TA & MTA on some issues but why this exercise in futility. Service will be changed for 4 years.If it could have been avoided, the MTA would have avoided it. The costs of implimenting a service change of this magnitude are quite large. On the otherhand they are inevitable. Now, what action do you take? You take the most reasonable action at the most reasonable cost that will give you the most reasonable result. With this plan, just one station out of over 480 is being significantly affected by the bridge closing that's approximately 0.2% if my math is correct.
The real question is do you invest hundreds of millions , if not billions of dollars on a crossing that will be used only a short time (relatively speaking) For that money, the MTA could provide free 'demand' service to the people who use the Grand St. station for the life of the project. Again, the question becomes, "Do you do it because you can or because it makes sense" The TA did not build a parallel line for the franklin shuttle when it was rebuilt. It bit the bullet - or rather the line riders did. Are the people of Chinatown due greater consideration. At least they retain some service - albiet with some minor inconvenience.
I proposed that as a joke several weeks ago. It was a completely idiotc idea and I can't believe that anyone has taken it seriously. Perhaps I think too much like the TA & MTA on some issues but why this exercise in futility.
There are many other policies that the TA & MTA have enacted that equally ludicrous. Placing a grade crossing in the middle of the Manhattan Bridge, complete with crossing gate, is more believable than say trashing half the R32 fleet, while there is a severe car shortage. Of course the proposals have to be taken seriously, the MTA/TA lack any sense of humor - not sadism - just humor.
Service will be changed for 4 years.If it could have been avoided, the MTA would have avoided it.
That's a non-sequitor and not true. The Feds proposed building a grade level merge between the north bridge tracks and Bway and 6th Ave tracks the before the MB overhall started in 1981. This would have provided normal non-rush hour service, while the south bridge tracks were not available. The entire cost for installing this junction would have been funded by the FHWA bridge rehabilitation funds. The MTA/TA and also the NYSDOT objected.
..just one station out of over 480 is being significantly affected by the bridge closing that's approximately 0.2% if my math is correct.
Your math is misleading at best. NYCT services PASSENGERS not stations. A more accurate estimate should be based on the number of passengers affected.
The real question is do you invest hundreds of millions , if not billions of dollars on a crossing that will be used only a short time (relatively speaking)
First off, it's not MTA money - it's FHWA money. Money not spent here gets recycled on some overpass near Plattsburgh or Atlanta. Second, The Chrystie St. Subway of the 1960's resulted in less routing flexibility. This would have provided a no-cost (to the MTA) means to partially remedy this oversight. Third, no highway project can be funded wholely or in part by the federal government, that severs a significant non-motorized transportation link during its construction. I would assume that the Manhattan Bridge coordinators would want to protect their jobs from some litigants who would tie up their funding in the courts for years.
For that money, the MTA could provide free 'demand' service to the people who use the Grand St. station for the life of the project.
Similar services have been provided for other bridge renewel projects.
Do you do it because you can or because it makes sense"
The federal criteria is because you must.
The TA did not build a parallel line for the franklin shuttle when it was rebuilt. It bit the bullet - or rather the line riders did.
The Franklin Shuttle was scheduled for 1 year and was under NYCT supervision. This project will take longer and is beyond the TA's control.
The idea of building a temporary "parallel line" is not without precedent. This was done when the Meeker Ave Highway portion of the BQE was rebuilt in the late 1960's. A temporary 3 lane elevated roadway was first built adjacent to the east side of the BQE. The Queens bound roadway was demolished and replaced followed by the Brooklyn bound roadway. The temporary highway was then removed. This technique maintained traffic flow and doubled the project cost. Nobody objected.
As a dim sum fan, I often find myself on East Broadway. I suppose it's morbid curiosity, but I can't resist looking at all the -- I think of them as lolly collumns -- propping up the bridge. I'm not an engineer, and I know I'm not qualified to make a judgment about the structural integrity of the thing, but it makes me nervous just looking at it.
So, in a way, I'm glad to hear that it was a joke. On the other hand, and I hope you won't take this the wrong way, isn't one Heypaul on this board enough?
So, in a way, I'm glad to hear that it was a joke. On the other hand, and I hope you won't take this the wrong way, isn't one Heypaul on this board enough?
I don't know! Previously, I was told I was too serious. I doubt that i can compete with heypaul's humor but I'd hate to think that I am going to be permanently consigned to reciting facts about subway rolling stock. How about if I cut back on the homor just a bit?
It seems that where the Manhattan Bridge (or at least its trackways) is concerned, there is no such thing as humor. Personally I like the idea of a 10 car train zig-zagging across the roadway :) That long gap in the third rail would be brutal though - especially going upgrade!
Happy New Year!
Gerry
That long gap in the third rail would be brutal though - especially
going upgrade!
After much thought, I have arrived at a solution to the long gap: a retractable third rail that pops up from the road surface as the crossing gate goes down.
Hey, what's up with the Manhattan Bridge? With all the talk of the work on Stillwell I haven't heard much of the Manny B lately. Have they finally decided what trains are going to run on the south side now, or is that decision still far off? I was under the impression that the decision on this would be rendered by the first of this year.
The bridge flip happens in July, I believe. The Q will be back on Braodway, where it belongs (IMHO, of course)running as a circle (Brighton local) and diamond (Brighton express) along with the W, which is really the Broadway/West End B (or T.) The Sixth Ave B and D will be cut back to 34th St.
:) Andrew
And I suppose that leaves the Sea Beach off the bridge permanently, is that it? Well, I'm not to happy with that. Why was a W or a T train added to the mix anyway?
Something had to run on the West End. You are lucky that they still have the N as a trunk line. It should be a shuttle at night instead of the B/T?W or R
People became colorblind since the 80's and can't tell the difference between orange and yellow Bs. So they need different letters.
BTW: The N may still end up on the bridge nights and weekends, capacity opens up and 2 lines for the downtown stops aren't necessary outside business hours.
And when the bridge is fully fixed the N and Q will probably do the bridge, with that W running the Astoria/B'wy local to Whitehall (you know, what they planned on doing).
Maybe the N or W will become the peak direction express on the Astoria line (this could happen even before the swap).
How would you make those hardly listening to annocements to distinquish between "yellow" and "orange" "B-s."
Probably the study showed that different letters, perhaps, are easyer to understand for gen. public?!
Arti
Henry, that is music to my ears. Too bad you don't work for the TA so you can put in a good word. I hate it that the Sea Beach doesn't go over the bridge after canal street but rather runs the gamaut into the bowels of Manhattan. That is a boring ride
A lot of "idiotic" ideas have resulted in benefits to society, either because it turned out that they were not so idiotic in the first place, or because thinking about them led to insights which produced a different, but much more do-able, and original idea.
Do yourself a favor - if what I'm detecting in your post is a little arrogance, try to tone it down - you never know what you might miss with the blinders on.
Again, why not a connection just west of the conversion from bridge structure to cut and cover, and dig out and build a simple, no frills tunnel connecting the south side (BMT) tracks with the North Side (IND) tracks?
I'd estimate it would be less than 500' of tunneling, and more in the area of 400' I would say. It just has to tunnel under the 3 lane roadway.
Of course, traffic would be disrupted, but I think heavy rail should be a priority in this city. You could still have the Manhattan Bridge's upper level lanes for traffic.
A simple, NON-flying junction connection. At least with this plan, the Bridge still gets repaired, service remains the same on the IND, and maybe even put the Q up Broadway.
:)
No room. There isn't enough space to build the tunnel in that location. Additionally, the shap turn into Grand Street prohibits a switch or crossover in the area (or else they could have kept the BMT connected all this time)
-Hank
I looked at the location several times over the years, both the North and South sides, and I'd disagree with you in terms of room.
If you are referring to a scissors crossover, that could be placed on the surface structure of the South (BMT) side of the bridge, at the surface transistion point.
With regard to the two curves once the tunnel commences, the general track layout would permit this connection, if you try to picture the area in a three-dimensional aspect, you should be able to see the lay up and connection being feasible.
By room, I mean vertically.
-Hank
I suggested a few days ago that a cross TUNNEL be dug from a point just under the surface from the south side approx. 300 - 400' feet long to the IND connection, under the 3 lane roadway. No fancy flyovers or flying junctions, but a connection a la the BMT Myrtle-Broadway connection.
This is a can-do connection, and could even be upgraded in the future to be a flying crossover.
Actually, that is a nice idea, but MTA may not be able to accomplish it in time due to the various activities which are required before a shovel goes in the ground.
Of course, there is one other possibility: If the NYC Dept of Transportation agreed to delay the flip-flop for repairs while MTA built a new subway connection, would that be worth the millions per day we taxpayers would pay to have repair crews and contractors waiting until they get the go-ahead? (This is a long-shot trial balloon also. I expect most of you will consider it ridiculous).
Years ago, an underground connection was made in Manhattan from the then-northside Broadway tracks to what were then the Nassau Loop-connected southside tracks, establishing the connection to Broadway now under (hopefully) final repair. These tracks paralleled each other for some distance so the connection was able to be made. The distance involved was probably no more than 100 to 200 feet of new track, I'd guess. That's what allowed the northside tracks to become the Christie St. connection.
My recollection is that a similar situation exists between those northside and southside tracks, once underground in Manhattan, that might allow the southside tracks to have a similar connection to the northbound tracks before they turn north to Christie St. Again, the distance for construction should only be100 to 200 feet.
With review of the historical information on the earlier track changes, both in terms of time to construct, disruption (if an) to surface traffic and cost, it should be possible to use those data to estimate the feasibility, time, and cost, to provide a connection from the southside tracks to Christie St.
If this is going to be a four-year project where the northside tracks will be out of commission, then what I propose, if it have excessive cost, may be a way to avoid the problem.
Here's another possibility: establish a frequent express shuttle bus connection between the Christie St. and Canal St. stations, to bring people who would use Christie St. directly to Canal St. to get Brooklyn-bound trains. That could be a low-cost sopution that would reasonably satisfy the many disgruntled riders.
Mike Rothenberg
I like your way of thinking. Even if MTA's current plan goes through, it's still worth doing...
This is simply an observation I have noticed over at the Dyre Avenue line.
I am wondering if some extra R62A's were sent over to the line. It appears that everytime I see a train pass on the trestle that intersects my street, it is a consist made up of R62A's. I am not near enough to read the car numbers.
I do know that the line was all redbird until a few years ago when OPTO started in the evenings. That's when the line received 2 10-car sets and 1 5-car set from the Pelham line. If you go between cars, the bulkhead signs still read (6). Anyway, I was just wondering if some more trains were being transferred over to the (5) since there are a few R-142/142A's running on the (6). Or maybe they are just using the R62A's they presently have for more runs.
Is there a method to rotate the cars on a line so that they all receive the same amount of wear and tear?
The reason I ask is for an anecdote of mine. I remember in college I used to work for the school by driving the intercampus shuttle. When I was made dispatcher, I was instructed to rotate the vans so that they would all get their fair share of use and mileage. At the time, we had vans that looked like they went through a war (after less than two years of use-the vans were on a 2 year lease) and others that had plush carpeting, velvet seats, A/C and tinted glass. My fellow students always wanted to drive the fancy vans naturally, but the transportation director said that all the vehicles needed to be equally used. Thanks.
I know that at least one set of either R62s or R62As have run on the #5 for at least a couple years now, especially during the rush hour. Maybe that is the train you saw. However, if u start seeing lots of R62As on there, then you may have a different situation...even though I've never heard that idea happening. -Nick
The late night shuttle on the Dyre Avenue Shuttle uses R62A cars from the 6 Line. Those cars were probably just put together for AM rush and returned back to the 6 after. What time did you see this?
Metrorail Article in Phila. Inquirer
Sometimes I wonder whether people have forgotten how to do simple arithmetic. The article says that an estimated 50,000 per day will use the proposed line. It says, however, that the pols can't figure out where to find $30 million per year for operating costs. 52 weeks per year x 5 work days per week x 50,000 round trips per day = 13 million round trips per year. A fare of $2.50 per round trip will cover the operating expense with a little something left over for a rainy day.
I could be wrong, but I think the $30 million is the projected subsidy the line will need (ie operating expenses less fares).
I was at the Fulton Street station yesterday. A train pulls in on the northbound track. It was a train of R142A cars. I then notice a train of R142A cars arriving on the southbound track. The lead car of that train was 7271. All the signs on the train were blank. The train stopped and the doors opened. Inside, the interior signs were also blank. I then assumed that this was the train to Bowling Green. (Unusual phrase, isn't it?) I took this train to Bowling Green and got off. I saw another train of R62A cars on the northbound track, which I got a picture of. I waited a few minutes and saw 7271-7280 pull into the station, hold with the doors closed for a minute, and leave. Strange, isn't it?
Rob, the bullets you are attempting to display have been replaced by the FortuneCity logo.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What should be there is the following:
I was at the Fulton Street station yesterday. A train pulls in on the northbound track. It was a train of R142A cars. I then notice a train of R142A cars arriving on the southbound track. The lead car of that train was 7271. All the signs on the train were blank. The train stopped and the doors opened. Inside, the interior signs were also blank. I then assumed that this was the train to Bowling Green. (Unusual phrase, isn't it?) I took this train to Bowling Green and got off. I saw another train of R62A cars on the northbound track, which I got a picture of. I waited a few minutes and saw 7271-7280 pull into the station, hold with the doors closed for a minute, and leave. Strange, isn't it?
If you have the Bahn 3.58 or 3.59 Train Simulator, I've just completed a upgraded A Division Layout which simulates service for after the R142 Deliveries.
If interested in a copy of this layout, please e-mail me at tlogan@transitalk.com, and I'll e-mail you a copy of the layout!
Happy New Years to All!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
with real nyct cars
WCBS FM is doing a "Subway Brown Bag" ... am listening to Petula doing "Downtown" right now.
Mr t__:^)
According to today's Newsday, the driver got impatient. When she arrived at the crossing there were four cars in front because the gates were down in anticipation of an E/B train. That train passed and the gates came up. The first two cars went over the tracks before the gates came down again in anticipation of the W/B train that ultimately struck the car. When the gates went down the second time she was now third in line. She backed up, pulled around the two cars in front of her and proceeded around the gates.
The driver's record----one summons for failing to obey a traffic control device. Involved in a collision, when another driver suffered a fatal heart attack and crashed his car into hers. Not charged. License suspended due to unpaid traffic tickets. Another summons for not obeying a traffic control device.
The article goes on to quote a friend "he wouldn't ride with her because she was a very aggressive driver".
While we can all feel sympathy for her family, the other victim who leaves a baby behind, and the third passenger who is in critical condition and the LIRR engineer who has to live with this nightmare for a long time, at least one very aggresive driver is off the road before she has a chance to cause anymore injuries or fatalities. She gave herself quite a 20th Birthday present !
See what STUPIDITY gets ya?
True I feel very bad for the passengers, but not for the driver. Better she checks out than check out another innocent driver. Good riddance.
I feel this confirms the 'idiot' label from a previous thread. Of course, where can we get the source info from?
-Hank
Of course the damage to the LIRR train could easilly run in the 10s of thousands of dollars. Who is responsible? Of course the MTA would never sue the family. In the Newsday article (a real tearjerker) the girl lost everything when her family apartment burnt to the ground. Of course I don't know what that's like but then again that was a 2000 Honda Accord she played demolition derby with (9 years newer than mine). Questions, questions, questions. Oh well, with all due grief, I did feel somewhat safer out on the road today.
Presumably the LIRR would proceed against the insurance company under the property damage portion of her policy. Then sue her estate, which is probably zilch or less than zilch, for the balance. Then John Q Taxpayer makes up the difference.
Isn't that what liability insurance is for??
Considering minimum liability coverage in this state, I doubt that it will make much of a difference. When you start adding up the costs, you begin to realize the emormity of the financial losses in an incident like this. Besides, would the MTA go after the estate?
The MTA probably wouldn't go after the estate because there probably isn't much in there. This was a 19 year old girl. Based on what Newsday said and my experience as a CPA, perhaps the girl had some clothes, jewelry and a few bucks in the back. The car now has only scrap value. If the auto had collision insurance, those funds would first go to the loan company as the secured creditor. It would probably cost the MTA more in legal fees to get whatever little she had.
Also according to Newsday a burial fund was set up by a local charity for the victims of the accident. Funeral Costs were estimated at $5,000. I doubt the girl had any assets if a funeral fund has to be set up.
Note: I do not know the victim or her family, nor am I employed by the MTA. The above is just speculation based on experience.
10-1 Mommy or Daddy really owned the car.
-Hank
Does anyone know that you're never supposed to drive through a railroad crossing when the gates are down and when the gates are coming down. If I drive through a railroad crossing I'll even check for trains even if the gates are up and then I'll cross. Another way to help prevent tragedies is to set up the crossing gates in such a way that there is no room to cross the tracks when the gates are lowered. One way is to have the "four quadrant" railroad crossing gates which would be two sets of double gates or to have single gates long enough to extend all the way across the roadway. This way it would be almost impossible to defeat them.
BMTJeff
They purposely don't use 4-quadrant gates because they would trap people who were not clear of the tracks when the gates began coming down. This happens way more often than people intentionally trying to go around the gates.
You can't physically compensate 100% for people's carelessness or stupidity.
Set up the gates so that the right hand side gate as the driver faces it comes down first and then the gate on the other side comes down.
BMTJeff
Set up the gates so that the right hand side gate as the driver faces it comes down first and then the gate on the other side comes down.
OK, but then you'd need some way to make sure the track isn't fouled before the second gate comes down. The law saws you're not supposed to start to cross a track until you can see your way clear to get to the other side, but people do it all the time. They sometimes stop right on the tracks or close to them. I'm amazed there aren't more grade crossing collisions than there are now.
You can have a sensor placed to that if something is fouling the track the gate will not come down and the there will be a red signal for the train. But the signal has to be quite some distance away from the crossing to allow enough time for the train to stop before it reaches the crossing and this could be very difficult if a freight train is involved. There probably will never be a 100% foolproof system to prevent people from trying to cross the tracks when their not supposed to but better systems should be used to help discourage people from trying to cross railroad tracks when a train is too near for them to cross safely. Better systems will result in fewer people getting killed at railroad crossings. In all, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
BMTJeff
People have been fooling with 4 quadrant gates for a while, and not really getting anywhere. My favorite approaches (aside from eliminating crossings, which takes big bucks):
- Medians in the road, which prevent you from pulling around the gate (you'd have to go over the median, which would be pretty high)
- Photo enforcement. When the gates are down, if you go around them, the camera will see you and you will get a ticket.
It seems like use of these two could cut down incidents a lot.
I like those measures! Nice ideas - and the median is not very expensive to implement.
David McCabe:
Those are two very good ideas. With the median it would be almost impossible for someone to attempt to cross the tracks while the gates are down. This would also save lives. Photo enforcement would also be a help.
BMTJeff
Although the accident last week and the famous van accident in 1982 are fresh in people's mind I don't think too many railroad crossing accidents are caused by people crossing downed gates to beat a train. I would think most accidents are caused by people stuck on the tracks behind traffic.
Have you compiled statistics to back that assertion up? I would tend to disagree, but am prepared to be wrong.
In any case, a RR crossing is like a controlled intersection. A driver is not supposed to enter the intersection immediately behind other traffic if it is likely he/she will block the intersection as lights are changing (but being a cop, you already know that). I realize that may be a bit difficult at a RR crossing, esp. one where the tracks curve, so you can't see the appraching train.
I realize that may be a bit difficult at a RR crossing, esp. one where the tracks curve, so you can't see the approaching train.
It's not difficult at all. You simply don't stop on the tracks, period. I know of no jurisdiction where stopping on the tracks is legal under any circumstances. But many wanna-be Darwin Award winners do it every day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hello all,
Periodically I like to test my mind and figure out to myself how the subway could run if something were to happen, even though I'm just an ordinary citizen and subway fan. This includes cutting routes in half, rerouting trains, etc.
This is a little brainteaser for you, asking this question: If you were in charge of routing trains for the Transit Authority, what would you do if this were to happen?
I MUST STRESS BEFOREHAND THAT THIS IS JUST AN IMAGINARY SCENARIO, AND THAT THIS IS NOT A SCHEDULED SERVICE CHANGE.
Here's the scenario:
The Montague Street Tunnel must be closed in both directions for two whole weeks for trackwork. In effect this closes, at the least, the Court Street and Lawrence Street BMT stations. You are asked to reroute the M, N and R trains.
Again, this scenario is imaginary.
If this WERE to happen, then what would you do? (Frankly, I can't figure this out myself!! LOL)
- Jose
End lower Brooklyn M service.
Run the N with the Q and W via Manhattan Bridge, and local through Fourth Ave, Brooklyn. Terminate the R at Whitehall St. Run a shuttle between 36th and 95th Sts Brooklyn.
Or not. Just thinking out loud.
:-) Andrew
Before the planned Man. Bridge flip-flop:
M shortlined between Metropolitan Av and Chambers St.
N to operate two services. One between Astoria and Whitehall St and the other between Queensbridge and Coney Island via 6th Avenue. Supplement schedule would go into effect on the Q line to avoid logjams at 21 St.
R to be rerouted via 6th Avenue Express & Manhattan Bridge to DeKalb Av.
Second N service from Coney Island to Court St via 4th ave, using crossover North of Lawrence to enable use of both tracks at Court. Temporary free transfer between Bowling Green and Whitehall stations.
The Brooklyn natives wouldn't like that. It would be a two seat ride into Manhattan under that plan. That and you would overcrowd the B & R lines during rush hour when all the N people from the Sea Beach portion get off as well as the same lines for the reverse commute.
Court & Lawrence are two minor stations as far as patronage compared to Manhattan service. I'd temporarily close them. For Court, transfer at Pacific for the 2/3/4/5 to Borough Hall, for Lawrence take the 2/3 to Hoyt St.
Assuming the MB Bway tracks are in operation, they could run the N/R over them, run the W (and/or some Rs) to Whitehall, route the M through the Chrystie connection to the 6 Av line and terminate the J/Z at Broad. This would keep the Manhattan transfers available. In Brooklyn: Brighton and West End would terminate at DeKalb or Pacific; a shuttle could run to Court St if desired (single-tracking between Court & Lawrence). The connection to Manhattan would be via the bridge service at DeKalb or Pacific, the IRT at Atlantic, or Jay St/Nevins. If the bridge is capable of the loading, Brighton & West End could continue over it during peak times. Run additional F service that folks within range of it can take that instead of Brighton or Sea Beach
1) Dont run any M trains into Brooklyn. All trains terminate at Chambers
2) R Shuttle from 95th to 59th.
3) N trains in two parts:
a) from Coney Island to 21St/Queensbridge via 4th Av Local/6 Av Express
b) from Astoria to Canal St via Broadway Local
4) No Q service at all. Make every other D train in peak directions (AM to Manhattan, PM to Coney Island) run express.
That would have the B, D and N over 6th ave express, and the R on broadway local. This is very much like the plan that they had a few months ago (July/August) Where they were
When they were fixing the tracks at Whitehall Street, they had City Hall, Cortlandt, Rector, Whitehall, Court and Laurence Street Stations Closed all weekend. There is close enough service for these areas by other lines:
City Hall: 2/3 Park Place, 6 Brooklyn Bridge
Cortlandt St: E to WTC, A/C to Chambers, 2/3 Park Place, 1/9 Cortlandt St.
Rector: Cortlandt St is close to Rector St, also Rector on 1/9
Whitehall: 1/9 South Ferry, 4/5 Bowling Green
Court St: 2/3/4/5 Boro Hall
Laurence St: 2/3 Hoyt, A/C/F Jay St-Boro Hall.
Assuming the north tracks of the Manhattan Bridge are still closed I'd re-route the R trains to the 6th Ave line. M trains would operate Between Metro. Ave and Broad Street during rush hours and between Metro. Ave and Bway-Myrtle Ave all other times. I'd add a couple of extra train to the N line. Southbound N trains would terminate at Whitehall Street.
In Brooklyn I'd provide shuttle bus service from DeKalb Ave. to serve Court and Lawrence Street Stations.
Wayne
>>>Again, this scenario is imaginary. <<<
Need to know if this includes the Manhattan Bridge being completely open, partially open and if so what side?
Peace,
ANDEE
All M trains terminate at Chambers rush hours and middays. The R operates from 95th to 36th Street at all times and the N from Coney Island to Pacific Street at all times making express stops on 4th Avenue at all times. There would also be N service from Astoria to Whitehall Street at all times and R service from 71st Avenue to Canal Street at rush hours and middays making local stops. The G would run to 71st Avenue at all times except nights to make up for R service on Queens Boulevard. Additional cars would run on the B, D, and Q to handle the additional crowds. The B51 bus would be extended to Pacific Street and paper transfers would be insinuated for free travel from Pacific Street in Brooklyn to City Hall in Manhattan via the B51 bus. Passengers would be asked to use the A, C, E, F, 2, 3, 4, and 5 as alternates.
Here's the scenario:
The Montague Street Tunnel must be closed in both directions for two whole weeks for trackwork. In effect this closes, at the least, the Court Street and Lawrence Street BMT stations. You are asked to reroute the M, N and R trains.
Just two weeks? First get permission from NYC DOT to open both sides of the Manhattan Bridge for the 2 week period.
Run the N over the south side of the Bridge. Have people taking the M transfer at Canal.
Break the M and R into two services. An R from 95th St and M from Bay Parkway, local on 4th Ave., via bridge and Broadway Express, terminating at 57th Street.
The north section of the R would run from Forest Hills to Whitehall Street, local on Broadway. The north section of the M would run from Metropolitan Avenue to Chambers or Broad Street.
LOVE it
Peace,
ANDEE
The Port Authority has set up a submission form for comments regarding the new proposed pricing structures for HudsonRiver crossings and for the new PATH fare structure. If you can't make it to any of the hearings, please submit your comments via their website: http://www.panynj.gov.
A list of hearing times and places is located there. I have also posted them previously.
I wrote in. I guess the good news is that the PA, unlike the MTA, is permitting on-line comments. The internet makes it easy to comment. Too easy, I guess, in the view of some.
I will also mail in a letter to the MTA, asking that it do SOMETHING for Brooklyn (V to Church/F express, V to BMT Broadway line replacing J/Z) as part of its plan.
Great!
>>>I guess the good news is that the PA, unlike the MTA, is permitting on-line comments<<<
Yes that is good news. The MTA should stop running a "deaf" website. It's nauseating that you cannot communicate with them on the web.
Peace,
ANDEE
[Sorry if any of you find these long posts about my rail trips last week annoying, but I know that at least some of you might be interested. There is a dearth of railfans in my office or in the group of my friends who are my age. You guys are the only ones who might relate! Anyway, cheers, and Happy New Year!]
This past holiday week was one of busy travel for my wife and me. The trip began before Christmas on the Acela Express, about which I reported earlier, to Washington to see my sister, then to Harrisburg to see my parents, then to Tampa to see my Grandmother, then back to Harrisburg, then back to New York via Amtrak. I would very much appreciate answers to questions, in bold.
In Tampa, I got to ride the people-mover at the airport. It was a little confusing because I was not sure if there were stops in between the airside terminal and the main terminal, so we guessed and got off at the first stop, which turned out to be right. I couldn't tell while in the pod. It looked like the tracks went on, and there were no announcements or maps in the pod. Researching on this site would have answered my questions beforehand, but I had forgotten about the Tampa section.
Notes, comments and questions from myAmtrak Keystone trip:
At the Harrisburg Transportation Center, there is a nice display of black and white photographs on the wall of the track crossover mezzanine. They depict Amtrak and Penn Central in Harrisburg throughout the years. (I didn't see any purely PRR photos in this group, though there are others elsewhere in the station.) You can see several AEM7s, and even some GG-1s, photographed in service! If you're travelling on the Pennsylvanian, Three Rivers, or Skyline Connection soon, I recommend using the 20 minute rest in the schedule to take a peek. Hurry! I don't think the display is permanent. In addition to the familiar Pennsylvania routes, the photo captions mention the "National Limited" to St. Louis (now defunct - Amtrak doesn't even traverse the route anymore after Pittsburgh) and the something called the "Big Apple Limited" (what were the terminals of this service, and when did it run?).
Jersey Mike might be interested to know I saw one of the new wayside color-light-type (not sure of their official name) signals a few feet to the east of the Amtrak platforms at Harrisburg. NS just double-tracked their Harrisburg Line through the city and I guess they must have replaced the PRR position light signals on that portion of their track. See the recent issue of Railpace for details. I didn't get a photo, since my wife and I were dragging around heavy luggage. Being laden so makes it hard to bop around railfanning. (I saw that position light signals are still in use on Amtrak's Harrisburg-Philadelphia Line.)
Unfortunately, a Genesis locomotive is what led our 4-car Amfleet coach consist. I always wish for an AEM7, which is occasionally granted if I am lucky. This leads me to my next question. The "Keystone" route between HAR and the Philadelphia metro area often winds through some fairly dense forestation. Within these woods, I often saw large trees, which had fallen and severely stretched (for lack of the official term, I'll call them) the power distribution cables. These are the cables you see strung along electrified routes about 50 feet from the ROW, about 10 feet off the ground. Isn't this dangerous, and can't it possibly interrupt the power to the catenary? If so, shouldn't the cables be cleared of these hazards?
Does anyone have any information about the huge former rail yard just east of Coatesville station, between there and Downingtown? There are many tracks ripped up there, and it's odd to see wide poles and catenary strung over dirt! (I say cop the wire for use in Harrisburg's Corridor One Light Rail project!)
After we passed Paoli, I saw a couple of the wooden wedding-cake style stations in mid-renovation, up on blocks. Later, the 2 AE trainsets were sitting in the yard at 30th Street. It was New Year's Day, and they were idle.
At 30th Street, I took the 25 minute "layover" to venture up into the station. (There are advantages to having your wife along, because she can guard your bags while you railfan! The only other times I have used the locomotive-change-time to go up into the station are when I have only a backpack, which I take with me, or when I'm starved enough for a Big Mac. Hey, if you're not gonna put a Café car on the train…)
Every time the conductor announces to the passengers about the locomotive switch, it's a varying story. Sometimes they say nothing. Sometimes they tell you it's a "power change." Sometimes they explain that it's a "switch from diesel to electric." They usually warn you the train will get dark for a few minutes, that you can step off and "have a cigarette," and always tell you when the train will leave at #:## "with or without you on it." So up I went with my watch. I wasn't hungry, so I spent most of the time looking at the placard display of "30th Street Station through the ages," which is a series of panels situated in front of the large "Spirit of Transportation" sculpture, in the anteroom next to the main concourse. I didn't know about the new "Center City West" plans. It looks like there may soon be buildings over the yard at 30th Street. Anyone have more information about this?
The rest of the trip to New York was uneventful, and the good part is that on this leg, the train stops only in TRE, PJT, NWK, and NYP, so it's a virtual Express!
Were these new colour light signals on Amtrak or the NS Lurgan Branch that crosses over the Amtrak tracks on the concrete bridge? Did they look like stoplights? Amtrak uses PRR PL Dwarfs, the old CR Harrisburg line has US&S H-8's (the Amtrak entrance signal to CP-HARRIS is an H-8), Conrail used round signals and NS uses in-line stoplight signals.
To answer your questions:
I am going to guess that the "power distrabution cables" you mentioned are on small wooden polls, are insulated and are about as thick as your arm. These have nothing to do with power distrabution. The power lines are only those involved with the catenary setup on the steel polls. The cables you saw are for communications and signaling. They are quite robust and may not even be in use any more.
The Yard just past Dowington is Thorndale Yard. Thorndale yard runs from THORN (MP 35.0) to CALN (MP 36.6) interlockings and had about 6 electrified and non-electrified tracks. In PRR/PC days is was a helper base for freight trains moving on the main line. There was a coaling dock there and it was staffed my mostly L1 2-8-2's. There are grades westbound from about MP 38 to MP 43 and Eastbound from about MP 30 to MP 21. Currently it is used by MoW crews and possibly by layover SEPTA trains.
>>>Were these new colour light signals on Amtrak or the NS Lurgan Branch that crosses over the Amtrak tracks on the concrete bridge? Did they look like stoplights? Amtrak uses PRR PL Dwarfs, the old CR Harrisburg line has US&S H-8's (the Amtrak entrance signal to CP-HARRIS is an H-8), Conrail used round signals and NS uses in-line stoplight signals.<<<
The signals I saw looked like this:
o
o
o
o
o
o
o
I may not have the groupings right, and I was to the side of them, so I don't know if they were actually colored or not, but they did look like stoplights. They were near NS's switch at CP-PAXTON, which is on the tracks running parallel to and to the east of Amtrak's Harrisburg Station tracks. Railpace: "the connector track toward CP-CAPITAL...now designated a continuation of Harrisburg Line Track #1 from CP-CAPITAL to the Pittsburgh Line...at CP-HARRIS. The new track is Track #2, "which uses part of the Royalton Branch" to the west.
You can always catch a good view of a freight running through there if you're willing to poke about after debarking, as I have occasionally done, and these days its not unusual to see GPs in both NS and Conrail livery.
If the concrete bridge you're talking about the Mulberry Streeet bridge, south (east) of the station, that's an automobile bridge. I don't remember seeing any concrete railroad bridges passing over Amtrak's tracks near the Harrisburg Transportation Center.
This reminds me. Did you know Harrisburg has a "subway?" That's right. The Amtrak tracks north (west) of the station pass over Walnut Street, which carries automobile traffic and ducks under the railroad at a steep grade. The overpass is supported by many thin steel i-beams which are painted white. This similar construction to the NYC Subway may be why the locals refer to it as "the subway." I swear! I can't believe I didn't remember this till now!
>>>I am going to guess that the "power distrabution cables" you mentioned are on small wooden polls, are insulated and are about as thick as your arm. These have nothing to do with power distrabution. The power lines are only those involved with the catenary setup on the steel polls. The cables you saw are for communications and signaling. They are quite robust and may not even be in use any more. <<<
Yep. That's what I'm talking about. They did look old and rusty and almost down in some places. It would make sense that they're not in use anymore, 'cause they don't look it. BTW, if these aren't used for signalling anymore, what is? Did they move the cable which is used for its purposes now to the catenary poles. If so, why was the first cable ever put up? It would make sense if the cable had been for communications before radio, but then what are the wires way up high above the catenary for if not for communication. What I'm getting at is, why string a weird extra cable up 50 feet of the track 10 feet off the ground? I've only ever seen this running beside electrified trackage, like here or on MNRR Hudson Line.
On most of the LIRR electrified lines there are old cast iron metal towers or wooden poles with electrical cable. Are those used for third rail power?
Its probably Hi-V AC that feeds into substations.
I've done some photo research and I can say almost for certain that those cables are for signaling and communications. I have several theories why you see them where you do. First of all those type of thick, cable suspended cables are found on non-electrified portions and used there also for S&C. Out west of Chicago all the signals are hooked into lines like that. The old old S&C cables are those non-insulated telegraph wires you see all over the place. They were used for block phones and even track circuts. The thick cable suspended lines are a more recent devolopment. It could just be that when a line was electrified and resignaled the communications system was redone and the old telegraph style lines were removed (you never see them after all) and replaced with these bundle cables or underground lines.
Another reason might be that the nigh votlage transmission and catenary lines could interfere with the open copper telegraph wires and induce phantom currents in them. A bundle cable placed away from the 132Kv transmission lines could solve the problem.
The reason that they are not used today is probably because most RR's place their S&C cables underground along the RoW. As I said western roads don't and it sticks out.
As for Harrisburg dosen't the Lurgan branch cross both the river and the PRR line on a concrete arch bridge?
Both the former Reading Company bridge and Cumberland Valley Railroad bridge traverse the Susquehanna via concrete arch bridges. The CVRR bridge is a bit wider and has catenary poles, but the catenary itself is gone and the bridge is only tracked about 1/3 of the way from the east shore to serve as Amtrak's wye at Harrisburg. You can see some pretty high weeds growing along the bridge surface. I wish I had the balls to hike it, but I don't feel like going to jail. Anyway, the CVRR became part of the PRR early in the last century, and they electrified the river bridge. I'm only guessing, but passenger service over the bridge may have included HARRISBURG-YORK-BALTIMORE-WASHINGTON trains using the West Shore line, such as the D.C. portion of the Broadway Limited. Anybody know?
CAT (Capital Area Transit) actually owns the bridge itself. It was bought years ago after abandonment by PRR/PC/Conrail in anticipation of serving Harrisburg's transit needs in some way, and all kinds of proposals have been floating around. It's commonly refered to as the Corridor One project. News bites were legitimized in my mind recently by a mention in Railway Age's "2000 Transit Guide." (I still anxiously await delivery of the 2001 version.) The corridor is to stretch from Carlisle to Lancaster and will most likely use Amtrak's ROW from LAC to HAR and then the former CVRR (using the bridge) between HAR and Carlisle, currently single-tracked on the immediate west shore. I wish I knew the current branch names for you. I think NS/Conrail makes more use of the double-tracked former Reading ROW west of Harrisburg, but I have witnessed freights on the old CVRR portion. There are supposed to be some demonstration projects soon, most likely with RDCs, and you can bet I'll be on-hand for that. I think the plan is to introduce the service in a limited fashion using RDCs to garner interest, and later convert to conventional light rail. Of course this is all years away, but hell, if Burlington, VT can have trains, why the hell can't a former "rail center" such as The Burg? But I am wondering about ridership, since event the current bus service on the west shore portions of the route is infrequent (maybe 3 rush-hour runs each way a day) and uses those smaller buses (not vans, but not long like NYC buses either).
But back to the point, I'm certain the CVRR bridge tracks meet Amtrak's at-grade south of the station. The Reading bridge is still in use, and never had catenary. I'll be jiggered if I can recall where its tracks go once they reach the East Shore, so you may be right about a bridge if the "Lurgan branch" you mention is perhaps the former Reading ROW. I don't know, but I'll investigate next time I'm there.
The Lurgan Branch is the Reading line to Shippensburg. It crosses the river on a concrete arch bridge that is one level higher than the PRR bridge because the Lurgan Branch crosses over the PRR just south of the station. The new interlockings in the HGB area are to serve the increased traffic through the Hagarstown gateway.
Thanks. I'll pay more attention next time I pull into HAR to see if I can get a better idea of the interlockings and crossovers.
Do you have track maps or something? If so, where can I get my hands on them? I keep asking about a reco on a good railroad atlas, but nobody seems to know whether the one I've found for $80 is worth it.
There are official 1992 track diagrams located at http://members.aol.com/amtrakmaps/C-index.html
They have pictures like this:
Remember to check the home page for NY to DC maps.
I find your posts most interesting. They educate me about systems that I have not been on, yet. Keep 'em comin'
Peace,
ANDEE
Saw this on the news here yesterday. Down in san diego a compact car filled with people either gets stuck on the tracks & or crosses them while the san diego trolley comes on full speed. The trolley wins & goes back into service with almost no damage at all like nothing happened!
My comment is why would anybody not take serious being at any railroad crosing of any type of train? It always results in disaster. What happened to the people trapped inside was too horrible to comment on.
We should always be careful at & around any type of train(s) & especially at railroad crossings!
I fully agree with you. I think that people try to beat a train at a crossing because they treat a crossing like any other road intersection, where they can "beat the light." Unfortunatly, there are different consequences when another car hits you and when a train hits you.
salaamallah is absolutely right about "beating the train". In Baltimore we've had 17 auto/truck vs. LRV accidents since 1992. The LRV won EVERY time.
As there is no real need for off peak direction V train it could run to Smith St. and return as G to Continental, PM rush the other way round.
Arti
That is an interesting idea. The V provides the rush hour Manhattan service we need, then provides crosstown service.
But: is the non-rush service it would give G riders enough to make it worthwhile? To put it another way, would a full-time V have more demand than a part-time G?
It will, since some people take E/F,R to Queens Plaza during the afternoon rush and cross over for the G if headed toward BK. And they take the G to the E/F,R when going to work. The V would definitely be useful there, since it would provide extra service for those passengers. Often, Crosstown riders are headed toward schools on the QB line, so it definitely would work in both the morning and afternoon.
The problem is Gs would still have to turn at Court Sq so that crosstown riders in the opposite direction who have nothing to do with the QB line don't get screwed, and you can't turn trains and provide through service on the same tracks unless the actual turning point is past the station on its own tracks (i.e. Church Ave (F), Smith-9, Bowling Green, 71/Continental).
There would be no problem turning Gs with ONE WAY V through service using the layup track between Court Square and 21st Street.
Arti
Imagine this: A G ends up in front of the V northbound. D1 at Court is already filled, the G ends up going in to D2. 20 minute wait for V passengers since D2 would probably empty first. Meanwhile, the next 2 Gs are piled up behind.
Southbound, the G on D1 would have to clear out in a hurry so that the V can enter.
MAYBE by turning trains on whatever track is not providing through service would work, but keep in mind you will need that second track if any delays occur.
Also, your average commuter is a complete moron who can't read signs. V - TO SMITH-9 | VIA CROSSTOWN and V - TO SMITH-9 | 6 AV LINE look an awful lot alike. Overhead platform signs displaying time ranges would confuse passengers.
Anyway, Smith-9 can't turn 2 lines. One would have to go to Church.
[Imagine this: A G ends up in front of the V northbound. D1 at Court is already filled, ]
With G rush hour frequency, it would be hard to imagine. Anyway, to keep things moving, let's delay G riders while keeping G on the layup track.
[Anyway, Smith-9 can't turn 2 lines. One would have to go to Church. ]
Whatever, it's just the best plan I could come up with to satisfy those who insist that there's the need for G QB service.
IMHO the best thing for G would be 2 car trains running frequently and on their own ROW. Light rail if you will.
Arti
Go to http://www.maxlightrail.com and wait for the map on the mainpage to load up. I made the whole thing using nothing but MSPaintbrush for the map and nothing but Notepad for the HTML that makes it clickable. Pretty cool, huh? Click on a station to go to that station, or a section to go to that section
Hey, that is cool. I always wondered how to divide a picture up into several links like that. But how does the coords tag work? I assume you take them in pairs, and that they refer to pixels, but what direction are they in, top to bottom, left to right, etc.?
Thanks.
That map is PHAT!! Love your "easter eggs," they make the map look cool. I always wanted to make a map where you can click and then see pictures of the stations, but I'm way too lazy to put in the time or effort.
Very, very impressive.
BTW everyone, I'll be flying to Seattle tomorrow morning, trip report when I get back.
Nice site! Has me seriously considering Portland for my vacation this summer, Thanks!
Peace,
ANDEE
Just heard that the PATCO line in Philly has been shut down since 5:30 along its entire length due to electrical problems. Apparently, people are stranded downtown. Does anyone know if they run shuttle busses in cases like this? It seems to make sense, but I don't know whose busses they would use, since DVRPA only runs one rail transit line, and not any busses. Perhaps PATCO should be managed by SEPTA or NJT? (I'd prefer NJT).
It's running again, but only every 25 minutes! Apparently there was a fire in a generator station.
As of the time of this post, PATCO’s website has a streaming message at the bottom of the page stating approximately 20 minute service due to electrical problems.
Although such service shutdowns on PATCO are very rare, it would be wise to have a backup plan, and that's PATCO's Achille's heel. If anything, PATCO would most likely go to NJ Transit for bus substitution, since they also serve Philly. But that is a great unknown.
Planning is under way for the purchase of the R-160 fleet for the B division. Seems like it'll be a 60' car. Initial order will be 660 cars with an option for 330 additional. R-38, R-40, and 1/2 of the R-32 fleet (likely phase I) will likely be replaced.
I'm surprised half the R-32s will go before the R-42s, based on the reported little problems with the 42s on the Eastern Division. Does the replacement plans include both the R-40 Slants and the R-40Ms?
Len me answer in two parts:
I was asked by someone writing an opinion about which cars should be scrapped first, what my opinion was. He then stated that scrapping 1/2 of the R-32s was being considered and he asked which 1/2 I would scrap. I suggested that the phase I cars be scraped first. My thoughts were that the Phase II cars have Stone Safety HVAC and it is far more reliable than the thermoking HVAC on the 32s. I also suggested that the Phase I Wabco brake valve be used to replace the NYAB brake valve on the Phase IIs. We did this on te R-68s and the improvement is remarkable.
As for what cars will be scrapped, It's only in the talking stages right now but i can assure you that the 38s and 40S will go first and fast.
Let me answer in two parts:
I was asked by someone writing an opinion about which cars should be scrapped first, what my opinion was. He then stated that scrapping 1/2 of the R-32s was being considered and he asked which 1/2 I would scrap. I suggested that the phase I cars be scraped first. My thoughts were that the Phase II cars have Stone Safety HVAC and it is far more reliable than the thermoking HVAC on the 32s. I also suggested that the Phase I Wabco brake valve be used to replace the NYAB brake valve on the Phase IIs. We did this on te R-68s and the improvement is remarkable.
As for what cars will be scrapped, It's only in the talking stages right now but i can assure you that the 38s and 40S will go first and fast.
Scrapping newer stuff first is quite a comment on those purchases.
Might be a comment on the maintenance that has been performed over the years. Besides the amount of stainless in the R-32s, haven't they had a major overhaul more recently than the 38s and 40s?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
True, but not by much. The first of the current overhauled cars to appear were the R38's in early 1987 (and what a shock it was to see them, I thought they were brand new cars at first). Then the R40's started appearing in the fall of 1987, followed by the the R42's in 1988. My last ride on a pre GOH R42 was on the Q line in December 1988. The last ride on a pre GOH R32 I took was in September 1989.
>>>Scrapping newer stuff first is quite a comment on those purchases.<<<
Sure won't be first time, and I'm sure it won't be the last.
Peace,
ANDEE
The R10 outlasted the R16 by 2 years. They even outlasted almost all the R27's, which were purchased a full 12 years after the R10.
I'll miss those wonderful slants. Good riddance to the R38.
You may have time for a ride or two on the slants. We're looking at 2004 for delivery to start. As for the demise of the R-32 - that may be premature. The scrapping of 1/2 of the fleet is ONLY being talked about - nothing more.
In my opinion, they shouldn't scrap any of the working cars! They should keep them around in case of a shortage.
- Lyle Goldman
I'll bet they will. But the R38's and R40's are really approaching the end of any useful operating lives. Body rust ...
The problem is similar to a personal auto. You can keep it running forever if you want to keep investing in repairs. For what it is worth, the division of car equipment is not the one calling for the scrapping of the R-32s. We will have our say when the time comes. In the meantime, the R-32s will go through another 12 year SMS before any decision is made.
This evening about 5:15PM or so I witnessed another pair of Main Line R 36 cars. Car #s 9548 and 9549 Again they are running with a GE consist 9548 is connected to 9666 and 9549 is connected to 9700 there will be more to come stay tuned.
Today I was on R-36s 9550-9551, coupled to R-33 single 9331 (I think). Anyone else notice the builder's plates are gone?(green rectangle of pre-goh paint instead). I bet some of Westchester yd's boys took a few souveniers before sending them off.
Low-life "railfans" steal them too! I've seen them missing on R68/68As beleive it or not.
Peace,
ANDEE
Here's the correct consist:
9746-9747-9313-9701-9700-9725-9724-9549-9548-9666-9667
9550-9551 consist is still the same.
#7 Flushing Local#9551Gary
Correction: 9339 instead of 9313 on this consist.
R33#9339Gary
On a short railfan trip today to Rahway, I photographed some splendid Amtraks at speed with their trailing clouds of kicked up snow. I was a sight to see, and when I develop my roll, you will all see.
When I went to take the PATH from Newark to WTC, the train came in from the east full with passengers at the bottom level PATH platform from the opposite direction. (For those of you unfamiliar with the PATHI, trains from NY are supposed to be sent to the upper level platform where all passengers get off) I wasn't sure why this was done, but there was a lot of people.
Also, when I was coming home, I noticed that the track turnout ice melters were actually flaming up about foot from the rail head. Are de-icers supposed to flame up? It ppeared to be natural gas because it was a blue flame.
-Dan
They are called point heaters and in most places they are propane, but the NEC might be on a gas line.
Railfan and Railroad Magazine has a photo of the first Genesis loco, #123 at the Ivy City yard in Acela livery. I need a correction: is the gray with dark blue top and red stripe Acela livery or the new Amtrak phase V livery? Anyway, they are planning on converting many northeast AMD-103s to the new livery in the near future just like the AEM-7s.
-Dan
Uni 123 was the first painted inthat livery. All subsequently delivered units are also in that livery. Plans are to repaint the entire fleet that way -- but as we all know Amtrak, by the time they get halfway through, they will come up with yet another livery.
That's a definite improvement, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Unit 123 is painted in the new corporate logo, not the acela logo.
I took the subways today, although my destination was Garden State Plaza from GWB.
Going I was lucky enough to get the 7X with a front window from Flushing.
Got off at Times Square and walked the long passageway for the uptown A train. A train of R44's just pulled out as I got in the station.
About 5 minutes later an A of R38's came. Fortunately the window was available.
The CPW ride was fast, and we'd really fly if it wasn't for all those timers. Then I saw what looked like an R44 C train at 110th on the downtown local, but at closer inspection it was an R110B. Never saw one in person before, the digital signs said "listen for announcements".
Then at 125th the same A I missed was in the station and we had to wait. Those R44's are slow, aren't they?
Then at 145th street somebody holds the doors on my train, and I heard the conductor warn the doorholder over the PA "You won't be so lucky next time".
Got off at GWB.
Going back from GWB I had an A of R44's. Needless to say, the ride wasn't anywhere near as enjoyable. The CPW express run wasn't impressive to say the least. The R44 train was quiet, and you could fall asleep on the seat near those plastic things near the doors, or just from boredom.
Got off at W4th and got a packed Q (this was around 4pm) just one stop.
I left the system so I could walk over to the uptown 6 (no xfer to uptown, only downtown).
Uptown 6 all the way to Grand Central. We caught up to the 5 we just missed at 42nd.
Picked up my 2001 NYC subways calander at the transit museum store.
Then the Shuttle to Times Square. They were making announcements about some sort of problem on the F train, though they seemed pretty much unintelligable.
Then at Times Square I got a 7X train back to Flushing.
We had a T/O in training, and it was quite interesting listening to the instructions.
Phrases like "two points", "wrap it up" were said alot. Pretty fast ride through the Steinway tubes, after to the T/O wrapped it up after the P marker at the 1sta ve crossover. Many T/O's should know the timers clear after 1st ave, and go in full speed. Many don't and you don't get good speed in there. This new guy was doing a great job.
We emerged from the tunnel after HP and the snow looked beautiful. The 7 train in the snow is awesome. Everything looks so nice in the snow.
The instructor warnsthe T/O "stop" when that tricky signal comes up in the middle at QBP.
This guy did well on the middle track. There was also a lot of pretty arcing and flickering due to the snow.
After Junction there were several loud pops from under the train, probably arcs.
When we got to Flushing the instructor asked me "he did great didn't he" and I said yeah.
He did awesome, one of the best 7 train rides I had in a long time, and the snow was the icing on the cake.
Also what's going on with Subtalk lately? I'm having alot of trouble getting connected to the site. I'm trying my Juno account now to get this post up. Hope it works!
> Also what's going on with Subtalk lately?
> I'm having alot of trouble getting connected to the site.
I've been having trouble, too. It seems the more messages there are on the server, the slower the server is to respond! I was able to have this problem temporarily fixed by changing my Subtalk settings so that only the messages from the last two weeks are loaded. Dave Pirmann should program the server to respond with something almost immediately, and maybe stagger the response, so that it doesn't time out.
- Lyle Goldman
Change your settings to load only 3 or 4 days; it loads much faster.
I normally load only one day. The messages list isn't the problem, it's individual messages that seem to give me fits. Lots of timeouts, and I'm on a cable modem - and then I'll go for half an hour with no problems. Dave?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I get that too and on a T1!
Peace,
ANDEE
I know, but I want to see as many messages as possible.
Funny thing is, when I go to the Subtalk index late at night, it usually loads faster.
- Lyle Goldman
I only have it to display the last two days. Funny thing is when I got onto Subtalk through my Juno account it seemed fine. But last night the spec.net didn't work well with Subtalk. Tonight it seems abit better though.
>>>... but at closer inspection it was an R110B. Never saw one in person before...<<<
The R110B you saw is the only one.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah I know there was only one set, so it was indeed a rare opportunity. Too bad I didn't get to ride it.
There are three 3-car sets of R-110Bs. Two are in service on the C as a 6-car train; the remaining set has been cannibalized for parts.
>>>They were making announcements about some sort of problem on the F train, though they seemed pretty much unintelligable. <<<
Too bad you didn't get on an F train, you could've ridden through the 63rd St. tunnel, they were being rerouted due to a broken rail in the 53rd st tunnel
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh darn!! Well I'll have to wait till next weekend, there's a G.O. for E,F,and R trains to be run through 63rd st. You can bet I'll be going through there at least a few times.
I finally got it today. Actually, I was kinda pissed when I left school (personal stuff . . . ) and didn't feel like going straight home, so I took the bus into the city, took the 7 to Grand Central and waited on the southbound Lex platform.
A redbird #6 train pulled in and I had to try very hard to let it pass. I couldn't believe I was passing up a redbird!
Anyway, it left and the next was an R-62/A. Not a problem, I'm used to letting those go . . .
Then the next one came . . . redbird. I couldn't fight it. I just stepped on. A pleasant surprise to find that it was one with blinking lights. Anyway, I rode down to Brooklyn Bridge, got off, and watched for the next 6's coming in. R-62.
So off to the uptown side, where the train I came on was already waiting. As we left, what train should appear arriving on the downtown platform, but an R-142!
So off at Canal and waited.
The R-142 came, I got on the 3rd car, and passed to the 2nd. Those double-doors are kinda cool, in a weird sort of way.
It sounded like a happy electronic couple doing the announcements - the wife announced the stops, the husband said Stand Clear of the Doors [Please].
Then something weird happened - between Astor Place and Union Square, the lights flickered twice! Just like on the Flushing Line redbirds!
Could flickering lights live on in the R-142/A?
Overall, not bad. BUt like everything else, the novelty will wear off and then I'll really miss the redbirds.
OH yeah, and the bus ride back to Jersey was almost pure hell. Almost, because despite the congestion and resulting crowds and delays, I grabbed one of the two remaining seats.
I saw on the TA website that the F will use the 63rd Street connector next weekend because of construction at 53rd Street. Will it be using 63rd this weekend, too?
Nope, the poster I saw said next weekend only. That will probably be the R-32's first trip into the tunnel. So far its been R-46 only.
I've seen three R-142a trains on the 2 line so far. There might be more, but I'm not sure.
are you sure you don't mean the R142? R142a's are only on the #6. There are at least 4 sets of R142s on the #2, including the subway series pinstriper. -Nick
Duh, how do you tell a r-142 from a r-142A? Sometimes I just don't see these things!!!!!!!!!!! :)
The easiest way is the builders plate. Look for it near the M/M's cab.
Peace,
ANDEE
Being a subway buff as yourself, don't you know the car numbers are the difference maker? :p
R142s' numbers are 6300s and above; whereas R142As' numbers are 7200s and above.
Also, R142's AC traction motor is quieter than that of R142As.
Since R142As are made by Kawasaki, their AC motors reminds me of those in Taipei Subway.
Chaohwa
Another way to tell the difference is that the R142A is built better,and more stylish...eventually all of them will have the long banner picture in each car. -Nick
Today was snowy in the morning. Also, because of Tony Kornheiser's recommendation about "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" on the radio everyday, I decided to watch "Crouching Tiger" today. It was only shown in DC. So I had to ride Metrorail to Union Station to watch the movie this afternoon.
So I went to school to check things up, and then to College Park- U of MD station to go to Union Station. I rode Green line to Fort Totton to transfer to the Red line. I rode Breda car 3197.
I found that the system map had changed. I have not rode Metrorail for nearly a month. This was the first time I saw this map. The remaining Green line to Branch Avenue has shown in service. Between Union Station and Rhode Island Avenue there is a planned New York Avenue station on Red line. Finally, there is a plan to extend Blue line from Addison Road to Summerfield and Largo Town Center.
I plan to post it, but I
I believe ground has been broken on New York Avenue.
It has.
Yes, indeed. I was surprised that WMATA has put New York Avenue Metro Station at their newest edition yesterday.
Chaohwa
So, how was the movie?
Peace,
ANDEE
I posted it at the second half of my long post. It was very good, better than I thought.
Chaohwa
Today was snowy in the morning. Also, because of Tony Kornheiser's recommendation about "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" on the radio everyday, I decided to watch "Crouching Tiger" today. It was only shown in DC. So I had to ride Metrorail to Union Station to watch the movie this afternoon.
So I went to school to check things up, and then to College Park- U of MD station to go to Union Station. I rode Green line to Fort Totton to transfer to the Red line. I rode Breda car 3197.
I found that the system map had changed. I have not rode Metrorail for nearly a month. This was the first time I saw this map. The remaining Green line to Branch Avenue has shown in service. Between Union Station and Rhode Island Avenue there is a planned New York Avenue station on Red line. Finally, there is a plan to extend Blue line from Addison Road to Summerfield and Largo Town Center.
I plan to post it, but I
Oh, there is some difficulty posting things. So I write the following:
===
I plan to post this information, but I think Oren had posted earlier. I will report my trip, anyway.
Crouching Tiger is a very good movie. I am Taiwanese, so I know all the conversation in Chinese. I am amazed that there is 80% full in the theater, and people appreciate good movies.
After the movie I went to see my favorite AEM7s and then ride Metrorail back to College Park. I rode Red line to Gallery Place- Chinatown to transfer to Green line back to College Park. I was surprised that I rode Breda 3080 on Red line and then Breda 3079 on Green line.
Next Saturday there will be a ceremony celebrating Green line extending to Branch Avenue. If the CAF cars will be on Green line that day, I will ride those new CAF cars.
Chaohwa
What did I post on? I haven't posted about DC since I left for New York before Christmas.
Are you going to the new stations next week? I was planning on asking the rest of the board (once I finish reading the new messages).
The CAF cars should be on the green line next weekend. They haven't started revenue testing to my knowledge but 26 of them will be needed by January 16th at the latest for rush hour service. I don't know about this but they might be able to theoretically manage without all 26 cars until that Tuesday (federal holiday Monday-MLK Day).
Because the pocket map's version is November 2000, I thought you have posted this information. My memory is very short. :p
Chaohwa
They put in new maps already? Amazing. It took months for the new map to appear anywhere else other than Glenmont after that station opened in July of 1998.
That is exactly why I am amazed. I went to Union Station to pick up those pocket maps. These maps are November 2000 versions. That is a miniature version of the system map I saw on Breda 3197.
Chaohwa
Actually, the reason for delay after Glenmont was so people could debate as to weather or not they should rename Friendship Heights Station. They didn't want to reprint the map with Glenmont and reprint it again with the new name for Friendship Heights. They were considering Friendship Heights/Chevy Chase, Chevy Chase/Friendship Heights, and even just Chevy Chase, the latter being unacceptable to most. I like none of the three, especially after all those ridiculous names they gave to the orange line stations in Virginia (and the operators don't even use), Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan, and U Street/African American Civil War Memorial/Cardozo (the stupidest of them all because no one who I know knows what or where the AACWM is).
The online Metro System Map does not show these new changes.
The stations open Saturday.
>>>I plan to post it, but I >...<<<
...keep hitting the wrong key? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
That's right. My connection was not very well at that time.
Chaohwa
LOL
Most of the 70s tile is gone at 23st. You can clearly see the mosaics and old signs (including DOWN STAIRS FOR DOWN TOWN TRAINS).
It seemed like just a few days ago they were walking around in white suits with red tape on the platform labelled "DANGER: ASBESTOS" in clear view of passengers waiting on the downtown platform.
...including DOWN STAIRS FOR DOWNTOWN TRAINS...
Sigh... they'll probably meet the same fate as JAMAICA
AND ROCKAWAYS at 65 St and CANARSIE at Times Sq.
They actually had most of the modern signage and
some tile removed from 28 St in the couple of weeks
before the closure.
It figures; all the breaks go to the better half ! My wife got in from work a bit late tonight and reported that the F train she was on got re-routed up the 63rd St. connector and express through to Roosevelt Ave. Al this due to a broken rail somehwere along 53rd St. she said. Apparantly they were running the Es up 6th as well. All this was around 7-ish tonight.
Anybody know if things are back to normal already, or will we get to see some 32s going through the connector *this* weekend as well.
I ask, hoping, since I will be in Boston next weekend for a conference.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
And I was on one of those trains. Guess what? I got off before it went to 63rd!
Well, I was in a hurry. I got on at 14th. At 34th I heard the announcement. I thought fast and got on the R. It didn't occour to me 'till too late that the 53rd St delay could have meant a 63rd St reroute.
Oh well. Maybe next time.
:) Andrew
I consider myself lucky. While I usually transfer to the R at Time Square, yesterday I went to take the F train at 14 Street/6 Ave. an E train came (all this was around 4:30)! I dunno but that train went through the 63 Street connector (maybe it was the first R-32 to go over the connector?)! I doubt the reroute continues through today, although I don't know how long it takes for TA to fix a broken rail (it was at Lex Ave/53 btw), but it was cool to see the connector on an R-32 a week before it was supposed to go there.
How did the passangers on your train react? I'd bet it was their first trip through it, and most probably had no idea of it's existance.
Anyways, these occasional emergency reroutes during peak riding times are a great way to famaliarize people with the new connection well before it opens permanently.
Oh yeah, it was pretty funny. When they made those announcements on 50th Street, everyone looked up and a few of the passengers left the train. So many people looked at Lexington Avenue/63 Street in awe.
A wild ride, indeed.
I got on at 23 St and started nodding off just after 34 St. When I woke up, we were stopped in the tunnel between 34 & 42; the destination signs (which had read "TO CONEY ISLAND") were out, as were the fans. Off with the headphones, I thought, this is going to get interesting.
After a minute or two, there's an announcement that we're being held because of congestion. We start moving again, and the fans and signs come back to life. The signs are even saying "QUEENS EXPRESS" now, although they switch back to "CONEY ISLAND" in less than a minute.
Stop in the tunnel again between 42 and 47-50; conductor again announces there's congestion. At 47-50, he announces that we'll be running on the Q to 21-Queensbridge, and the F behind us will be making regular F stops. Most people pile off the train, others have no clue; I'm preparing myself for another Long Island City walking tour for those who don't believe that the Q doesn't go to Forest Hills. I was sitting under the map; one woman asked me what color the Q is! Now the announcement changes: we'll be running on the Q to 21-Queensbridge, then making ALL STOPS to 179 St!! Biiiig smile on my face! The same woman asks me where 179 St is; interestingly enough; she didn't get off until Van Wyck Blvd. People pile back on the train, most of them asking themselves, "are we going to stop at Queens Plaza?" Sigh.
Looks of total amazement as we pull into the 63 St stations, especially Lexington Avenue, where I'm sure a number of people got off expecting to catch the 6. A group of about five very vocal girls whose destination was Roosevelt Avenue insisted that it wasn't really Lexington Avenue. They almost got off at Roosevelt Island, after they remarked "what's Roosevelt Island?" "Where are we?" and "This must be the same as Roosevelt Avenue!" Fortunately for them, the conductor announed the next stops would be 21 St and Roosevelt Avenue.
After 21 St, the tunnel is very cool. A lot of passengers were looking out the side windows. Going around the curve, there's a great view of the Manhattan-bound trackway. Going up the ramp to meet the Queens Blvd line is a thrill, too, especially with a local train passing by. It was definintely worth the delays to get to ride through the tunnel!
Didn't know the signs cut off when over a 3rd rail gap.
So how long does it take to get from 21st Queensbridge to 36th? The tunnel sounds cool, hopefully I'll get a chance to really check it out with that weekend G.O.
I was so enthralled with the tunnel, I didn't even notice how long it took! It's definitely longer than from Queens Plaza to 36 St, but less than the time from 23-Ely to 36 St. You'll find out for yourself in a few days :)!
my F train, did the same, after sitting at 47-50 for 15 min and the t/o begging the c/r to close the door,finally a supv. can on and id himself and ordered the c/r to close the doors, the whole time the c/r was announ. next stop Lex, forgetting about 57th. lots of confusfed people but I knew where were were going and it was a great ride...
We may have been on the same train; I'll never forget the booming voice that came over the PA at 47-50: "Conducta, will you PLEASE CLOSE the DOORS!!"
AARGH!!!!!!!
I was all set to go to 34th to take the F home Friday night, which I have done every single railfanning day since they started T/O familiarization in the tunnel, hoping for a G.O. But then I remembered that there were mainline R-36s on the 7, so I took that instead, and did get a mainline R-36 on first train that arrived (and it stopped right in front of me too). I should of taken that as a sign that I was missing something big. At Roosevelt, I heard over the PA "After an earlier incident, Queensbound E and F trains are running normally, but use the G and R if possible." A super crowded E arrives, followed by a 3 minute gap (which often means crush situation on next train) and an F with the crowd levels of about 2 in the afternoon. The thing which made me suspect a 63st reroute was the last 2 cars had ample seats, impossible if the train stopped at 53/Lex.
I have two questions about the #5 Train.
First of all, I've noticed that some #5 trains are going to Utica Avenue. Why are they doing this? The map says that when the #5 trains do go to Brooklyn, they go to Flatbush Avenue, and there was no service announcement regarding this. What's going on?
Second, it says on the Service Advisories page on the MTA's website under the #5 line that downtown trains are running express from 14th Street to Brooklyn Bridge late nights. I thought #5 trains didn't go to Manhattan late nights! Did they put that there by mistake?
- Lyle Goldman
>>>First of all, I've noticed that some #5 trains are going to Utica Avenue.<<<
They've been doing this for years. When I was in the IRT in 1994, they had 2 or 3 early evening #5 trains scheduled to go to Utica Av instead of Flatbush Av.
>>>I thought #5 trains didn't go to Manhattan late nights!<<<
Right you are! It was inserted in error.
Just like the G.O poster I saw once:
LATE NITE - NO 5 Service Between 149st and Bowling Green. 11:30 PM SAT - 5AM SUN.
1. Most of the time, the 5's that are scheduled to Utica run OOS to Livonia Yard to take a midday break. There are some that DO turn back at Utica and head into Manhattan. In the early morning and early evening rush hour however, the 5 makes all stops from NL to Utica before going express. At the end of the evening rush, there are a couple of 5's that would run OOS to Livonia Yard, and there are a couple that make stops to NL before going to the yard. There are a couple of 2 trains that go to NL as well during the morning and evening rush. It is so that they can be stored in Livonia Yard. You shouuld see the Livonia El from 9:30 to 10:30am. Talk about bumper to bumper traffic :):). Hopefully, this problem will be relieved if the TA decides to build a storage yard at Flatbush Junction.
2. Just a mistake. The 5 dont run late nights.
Train#1987Mike
[Hopefully, this problem will be relieved if the TA decides to build a storage yard at Flatbush Junction.]
Mike, I think the idea is not a storage yard at Flatbush/Nostrand Junction (since there isn't room), but to extend the 2/5 tracks onto the Bay Ridge Line, thereby allowing for one or two layup or 'turn-around' tracks to help with rush-hour headways.
BTW, a few years ago there was another idea from MTA that would involve turning a part of Linden Yards into a storage facility for 2/5 trains. This of course would have meant: (1) electrifying the Bay Ridge Line between Flatbush/Nostrand and Linden, and (2) disturbing the freight schedules of clients on the Bay Ridge. That's probably why this plan never saw the light of day. (not to mention that a plan like this would involve FRA approval since it is a freight line).
BMTman
Is that ROW a two or four track capacity? Do I understand correctly that if there is NO connection between the tracks the FRAs then have no compulsion on the transit lines. The freight and transit are two separate and unique entities, and not subject to each others rules. I know you know this area, line and such. Please light a candle in the dark!
avid in the dark
[Is that ROW a two or four track capacity? Do I understand correctly that if there is NO connection between the tracks the FRAs then have no compulsion on the transit lines. The freight and transit are two separate and unique entities, and not subject to each others rules. I know you know this area, line and such. Please light a candle in the dark!]
The Bay Ridge Branch ROW has room for four or five tracks, but at present time there are no more than two tracks used at the most. The remnants of four track operation on the Bay Ridge Line is quite evident on the embankment and cut sections of the eastern-most part of the ROW (Farragut, Canarsie and East NY). Once the line dips down and heads west to Bay Ridge it is strictly single-track out to the float-bridges by 65th Street and the Brooklyn Army Terminal.
Right you are, about frieght and R/T operations. One of the few R/T operatoins that I know of that is under FRA rules & regs is PATH. That's because the PATH system does have a connection (although not actually used anymore) with CSX somewhere near Harrison. And of course PATH was originally under Penn Central operations way back in the day.
BMTman
Well, Path does have a connection that comes out of the Yard, and connects with Amtrak and NJT on the NEC. When the Hoboken Festival was held this year, Path Equipment had to use this connector to the NEC, in order to get to Hoboken Terminal. It works!!! How else can you get PATH equipment in and out of the system? The connector is an equivalent to that of Linden Yard's connection with the Bay Ridge Line, serving the purpose of R-142 deliveries....
As for Path's ties with the major RR's: Operation east of Journal Square, was under joint control with the Pennsylvania Railroad, in the days of when it was the Hudson and Manhattan. Some of the 1958 cars that operated over the H and M as part of joint operation were purchased partly by the PRR.
Speaking of Path, construction west of Journal Sq single tracked trains through Harrison and Newark on the WTC Bound Track today.
-Stef
Yea! Meaning my usual Comp Limo to Newark Penn (AKA PATH) wasn't free you had to catch it on the side with the fare control. Meaning $1 for a 53 second ride to Newark Penn.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" As I take the bus instead of paying Harrison ---> Newark
Wouldn't it have been easier to electrify the flyover entrance to Linden? That wouldn't interfere with freight ops on the Bay Ridge.
The last (south) 3 cars will not open at Metropolitan Ave. station for the next two weekends in accordance with G.O. 3061-01. Contractors will be performing asbestos removal in the Dispatcher's office and the RTO crew room.
Any crews reporting for duty will have to walk to the Fresh Pond Yard Tower instead.
If the TA cared about it's operating employees, they would run 4 car trains to prevent the T/O and C/R from possibly inhaling dust particles. In the south motor, particles could still enter while the train waits to make it's interval, endangering the T/O(on an 8 car train). The C/R has to observe three car lengths or up to the end of the platform whichever comes first. On the eight car train, the location of the office fullfills both criteria. I can't wait to finally earn my college diploma so I can get a nice office job with lots of different perks! I won't have to worry about endangering my health anymore.
4 car trains are really all that's necessary for the M shuttle.
That's very true and I 100% agree with you. But not only have they not cut the trains recently, but if they decided to do it, cold weather plan #1 which has been in effect for about a month now prohibits cutting trains for revenue service. So there goes that idea.
The old station timer has replaced the wheel detectors at Chambers St (J/M) on 1 track. At least that's one less thing for T/O's to worry about.
Perhaps the TA doesn't want any speed restriction devices hampering fleeing trains when the Chambers St. station caves in ...
They were installed but not active for a long time. What prompted them to active them recently and now deactivate them again? It sounds like a big waste of money and I don't get it. I think it's a little excessive having WD's in most places anyway since GT signals seem to work fine as they are.
Shawn.
Yes Folks, Another R 36 Mainline set has arrived to the # 7 line at 11 30 PM tonight. There were NO R 33 SINGLES on this consist. It was a solid 10 car set. The car #s are 9536-9539 9542-9547. What happened to 9540 and 9541? If any one knows please post up. Thank you. It sounds like the Mainline invasion has begun.
Wow! The arrivals of R142s/R142As make two sets of R33s migrate from #2 to #4, and two sets of R36 mainlines migrate from #6 to #7.
Chaohwa
They'll probably stick in an R-33 between 9537 and 9538 for revenue service.
They will put a single car on the Mainline R 36 set it will probably be connected to 9546 and 9536. 9547 will be the north motor and 9539 will be the south motor. Also heres another weird lash up 9556 is connected to the world series single car R 33s 9327. after 9327 is 9600 9601 9691 9690 then I couldnt see the other 4 WF R 36 GE cars. 9557 is the north motor on that train. Again with ANOTHER GE consist.
I rode the SF muni "F" historical trolley line today, and it was a blast! All along the embarcadero they can wrap the controller around between every stop, and the track is all newly laid and real smooth.
I love museums, but to ride on a historic car that is fighting street traffic and taking on passengers who are commuting and not just riding really makes it seem more "real" some how.
I highly reccomend it, over and above the cable cars, which are like an amusement park ride now.
In SF for the week,
Dave
PS, FYI: the street trackage on Fremeont street is now completely gone, as the trolleys no longer loop at the transbay terminal.
I'm always impressed with any of the rail operations in San Francisco but particularly the "F"line. I was up there alst month, and even my wife now asks if we can "ride the old trolleys" for fun!! She loves them, and my 17-year old stepson also really likes them better than anything else.
The speed runs on the Embarcadero are particularly impressive. I was in the back of the blue/yellow double-ender watching the speedometer hit 48 miles an hour....only problem was, the operator was a bit heavy on the brakes all the time, so the car was filled with that not-so-pleasant "hot brakes" aroma.
I will be sending pictures of almost all the cars in the next few days to Dave Pirmann for NY Subway Resources. I just found the packet of all the photos I took on the very first day of "F" line operation a few years ago. Sure was fun watching THAT parade, especially with the help of one of the SFPD traffic officers. She parked her three-wheeler at Noe & Market, and let me sit in it while taking all my pictures, if only I'd just call her over from where she was directing traffic in the middle of the street if she got a call!
I've heard that Frisco was getting more Milan Peter Witts, great. But also wondering, pardon my lack of knowledge, whether that Milan is phasing them out? I hope not.
For those who still love the looks, sounds, and feel of the classic trolleys [or traction generally] assuming Milan still has a good fleet of them I recommend Milan if you're planning a trip. I was there in Oct. 98 and was joyed with the Witts running on sveral lines 24/7. Until then I believed no such place existed. No rush hours only, or one line only...just like turning the calendar back 50 years.
I rode Milan cars both out and back yesterday, MUNI has about six of them now. They have fare boxes, radios, and something I'd never seen on MUNI before:
A box that had buttons for "L", "R", blue(blank), and "CALL" These four buttons would all flash approaching street lights and turnouts.
On the way back in, we made an extra loop near the ferry building, and to select the non-normal route, the motorman reached up and held the "L" button until the point moved. To this point I thought that MUNI still used current-sensing track switches. The Boeing LRV's had a shunt switch to effect this.
Is there something new going on here?
Dave
Steve...
Thanks!!
I haven't been able to get out to SF since the Embarcadero branch opened (after having gone out there in 96, 98, and 99). Maybe this year I'll get to go back out...
-Dave
New York Waterway announced that shuttlebus service to and from the East 34th ferry terminal would terminate Feb 2 and that the ferry service would terminate March 2. Story in Saturday's Times.
Seems kinda silly to eliminate the bus service a month earlier than the ferry service, doesn't it?
Peace,
ANDEE
It provides a disincentive for riding the ferry, reinforcing the notion that the service wasn't necessary anyway!
True, but since they have already announced the the ferry service is to be discontinued anyway it just doesn't make much sense. I mean, if they discontinued the bus service w/o continuing the ferry service as a ploy to drive down patronage then it would make more sense to me.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd better stop procrastinating and ride one of these days if I am to continue my quest to ride all NYNJCT area ferries. As I recall the fare is $1.50. This boat brings pretty much every person who rides the 4:54 PM LIC express.
I assume the free Queens Surface bus (Q69) will go as well?
Bob, Would you believe that no one told QSC ... our Q69 is the bus service on the other side of the East River. I'm giving a copy of your post & the Times article to our Transportation VP.
Thanks to Bob & Dave the company realy got it's money's worth for this connection today !
Disclaimer: I'm not a official spokesperson for nycDOT, Port Auth, or my employeer.
Mr t__:^)
Hi everyone its been a week or 2 since I gave my last update of being a Student C/R.
I finished posting on the IRT. It went good the only bad day I had was Tuesday on the No.1 Line where some homeless person went crazy and was attacking people on my train. This had to happen at 137 St southbound during the AM Rush Hour. So we spent 5 Minutes waiting for Police that never came. So Control Center told us to signal in route for police. Now this made the rest of my run a Nightmare. Jammed platform with everyone trying to fit in the train when they can't. Then the real kicker is I had holding lights at 96 Street for 3 Minutes.
Then the rest of the week was the Final and Practical. I passed all of the above and the T.S.S told me I am offically a Conductor. All thats left now is the 2 Days of R 142 Training then I'm on my own starting Wednesday as Extra Extra Extra. I did request the PM Tour so hopefully they keep me mainly PM'S.
The Lines I like the best are the 1,4,5,6 Lines The like I don't like are the No.3 and 7 Lines.
>>>It went good the only bad day I had was Tuesday on the No.1 Line where some homeless person went crazy and was attacking people on my train.<<<
That was the line superintendent. He probably didn't get his christmas bonus this year.
>>>The Lines I like the best are the 1,4,5,6 Lines The like I don't like are the No.3 and 7 Lines.<<<
In the IRT, I loved the 4,5,7. Everything else blew big monkey wang.
Congrats, guy! Trial by fire ... welcome to the fraternity and sisterhood! Railheads are a great bunch to hang out with and you're on your way. Now it's all a question of how long you'll sit back in the middle before you want to take on school car so you can see out the front on that special angle.
Step lively and watch the closing doors!
Thanks!!
I hope to move up front within 6 Years. After all the SUPT of RTO Training said we have to wait 5 Years for the next Exam.
Well THAT chews it ... I was lucky in my own timing, got hired up as a blue suit with a badge and hat back in 1971 at the tail end of the "massive retirements" ... once we got handed our S keys and our "report to" papers, they were already trying to sell us recruits on school car ... I was a conductor on Brighton/concourse for almost 6 months before the motorman exam was given, I did it, did well and got called up 6 weeks later ... back in those days they actually had dummy platforms setup at Coney and they rushed us through.
At the time they were shorter on crews than on rolling stock and that says something about the TA's desperation at the time. The mighty IND was shedding bodies like there was no tomorrow, most having their "time in and taking it" ... it was the very last relay of the gravy train. :)
I found that being a train nut and then going to work for the mighty geese haulers didn't work out well - I washed out after some minor anticlimber damage on a layup at Coney (back then, they put you on switching before letting you out on revenue) and that was my ticket out of there - option was to do pump car duty or quit, so I decided to quit. In my own situation, it was a brake failure but then again, when you damage company equipment, didn't much matter what caused it. :)
Got a better deal out of Gonerail - had friends and dispatchers that would let me play with mightier units ... amazing what can get hired up when there's a labor crunch.
But to this day, I am STILL grateful as someone 50 years old of being handed the handles of the mighty R1/9'ers back when I managed to have "the touch" as my instructor put it - rookies were not handed pre-war cars routinely since there was fresh meat coming on and the "cake assignments" had already done the rounds. Anyone in my rookie group that WANTED the "wrecks" were more than welcome to have them. Cantankerous beasties they were but they gave me a ... trip cock. Heh.
Spent my entire time with few exceptions on R1/9's with two trips on a 44, quite a few on 32's (HATED them because you HAD TO announce) and the 44 I did the two trips on was screwed up (C/R at the time) - went and pushed for the bing-bong and it sounded like a messed up 8 track. Did a bbbwwwiiing-bwwwwong" instead of the familiar doorbell sound. Earned a 10-9 under it but hey, it was the guy up front that took the fall ... I just got taken off duty even though I had no idea of what had happened other than the pawnbroker lights never went down at 59th.
May your stripy boards always line up and may you always give indication. Two buzzes, let's go. :)
Whoops! It was a 32 with the 8-track distorto version of the doorbell and it was one of the first 24 cars that came in. They were just *SO* screwed up ... died in service so many times after delivery as to be pathetic. Wonder if they ever fixed them. Nah ... :)
But man ... I still get an ... angle cock ... for the old high iron. Gimme my door shim (also handy for breaking off bad shoes) and handles and keys to a mighty R1 and it's better than sex. Well ... hmmm ... yeah.
The 10 weeks as a motorman was the best part of the trip. Even did some cutting - what a rush it was hearing about that from some of the other folks here - got shown how to do it (with flashcards and all) and only ever had to do it once. Natch, not on my own. Damned RCI's with their "oh yeah? Show me." Heh. Had a controller fall apart in my lap once - that was also part of the "well, it needs some TLC, but it'll run" days when I worked in the "anything can happen equipment blues band" days of the mighty "ta" ...
Seriously, though I was born and raised in the Bronx (Born 1950) and Lo-V's were a childhood experience, I moved out of the city in 1976 to New Paltz and then to the (no joke) "Little town of Bethlehem" (just south of the city (?) of Albany) ... but the time I put in with the "ta" (New York City Transit Authority - intercourse this MTA crap) was the very happiest year and change I've spent.
The ta was, despite its many anal and irrational qualities, a wonderful place to work - the old-timers had great stories and would show you unnatural acts you could perform with the pre-war cars (ever see a standard with the governors cut out? Faster than a ten car consist of R1's with motors on every car and faster than a redbird without timers on a downhill) that nobody in their right mind would consider doing. I really enjoyed myself even if the supervisors proved on a regular basis why the old-timers were quitting in droves. It was a time when interlocks hissed. (and you were allowed in a tower)
Nothing sucked worse than rush hour split shift duty and deadheading to the other end of the railroad to report ... I lived in the Bronx at the 205th street station of the D. Where was my crew call? Coney or Brighton. One trip, layover, do it again in 6 hours. Not fun.
But the "ta" was also an adventure ... savor it ... it's a nice place to play as long as you can forgive the rectal-cranial intercession. This MTA stuff, I don't know. But fun is what you make of it and it sounds like you're there ... I still remember how delicious that was.
In previous posts you have mentioned something called a "butt-plug", satisfy my kinky curiousity and explain what that was, please.
Peace,
ANDEE
GREAT story, keep 'em commin'. Thanks!
Peace,
ANDEE
Nothing but luck to you
Peace,
ANDEE
All the best, Pelham Bay Dave, Jr.!
If you ever are aware of a "father/son" crew about to happen, let me know and I'll see if I can get some press coverage.
Will see what happens. Starting Wednesday I'll be on the road by myself. It seems like the days been going fast. Its hard to believe I been a Student Conductor for 5 weeks.
Tomorrow is my Birthday so everything has happened with great timing.
Thanks for your Support!
Congrats Dave:
I wish you all the best and hopefully, I will join you there as well.
Train#1988Mike
I wish you all the best!
The FRA has just anounced some rule changes regarding locomotive toilets. Basically every leading or occupied locomotive must have compliant toilet facilities. Exceptions include:
Switch Engines
Engines in transfer service
Commuter Service
Class III RR's where facilities are provided en route
Historic and Senic RR's.
Basically during a locomotive's daily inspection the toilet facilities will be judged compliant or non-compliant. To be compliant a tiolet must have:
Adequate ventilation
A supply of tiolet paper
a washing system
trash can
door closure w/ lock
potable water
tiolet sanitized and sucked
You see, if the FRA was in charge of the subway, bathrooms would improve dramatically. Maybe we'll see better bathrooms on the PATH. The rules require compliant facilities to be made available if none exist on the locomotives.
"Maybe we'll see better bathrooms on the PATH"
Wouldn't PATH be considered commuter service?
"You see, if the FRA was in charge of the subway, bathrooms would improve dramatically."
We are talking about bathrooms in locomotives, are we not? Based on the exceptions, I doubt that the subway system would be required since they did stipulate "except where facilities are provided enroute".
Again, we are not talking about bathroom facilities for customers but for the crews of trains. I would disagree with the FRA exempting commuter RRs. What is the difference between the engineer's kidneys on an AMTRAK run from Penn Station - Albany and the LIRR run from Penn Station - Montauk?
Commuter RR's must provide wayside facilities. Sorry I forgot to mention that. Same w/ Class III's. Also on commuter lines there is only one man in the cab so the train would have to be very delayed for an engineer to take a station break. Most commuter runs last no more than 1.5 hours. Freight trains can get stuck out in the middle of nowhere during 12 hours shifts.
Basically during a locomotive's daily inspection the toilet facilities will be judged compliant or non-compliant. To be compliant a tiolet must have:
Adequate ventilation
A supply of tiolet paper
a washing system
trash can
door closure w/ lock
potable water
tiolet sanitized and sucked
Most toilets in office buildings wouldn't meet those standards!
What office building do you work in -- non union understaffed janitors
What office building do you work in -- non union understaffed janitors
Au contraire ... my building is owned by the Carpenter's Union, which has its HQ and training session on the upper floors. I doubt any non-union tradesmen would dare enter the place.
Anyone who has been ever on a locomotive particularly those old clunkers with straight hoppers can appreciate what FRA has done, P*H*E*W and as for chemical systems -- Inca Gold ain't exactly yummy.
Inca Gold?
Inca Gold is the chemical used with retention type locomotive toilets. It adds it's own distinctive fragrance to that of the toilet, helping to make a cab ride a memorable experience. 8~>
Is that the same blue chemical used in "porta potties" and Greyhound buses?
Nice emoticon!
This does include MU trains, I suppose. Once on the New Haven Line, the train was stopped at a station when the engineer got out of the cab and walked to the bathroom at the back of the car. The train was still on time! (less that 6 minutes late)
Commuter trains are exempt IF bathrooms are provided en-route. However because of the short travel times I would expect the RR to expect its employees to go before the go.
The Congress Heights, Southern Avenue, Naylor Road, Suitland, and Branch Avenue WMATA Green Line Stations open next Saturday, January 13, at 8 AM. There are ceremonies at Southern Avenue at 10:30 and Branch Avenue at noon. Free rides are available at those 5 stations from 10 AM until 4 PM. Is anyone other than Chao Hwa or me planning on going?
I may go. I can't count on it, but I may make it.
I have put a few pictures of a Snow Emergency Train on my website www.zdeno.com (I have provided a link below). A friend of mine who works for NYCT donated these to my website so that is why the quality of these pictures is slightly poorer than most on the website. I have also included close ups of the coupling used between the diesel locomotives and the R68's. The link to the SET train is the first one on the right side of the website (under the "latest updates" section).
Last month I had the most visitors for one month in the websites history.
I update it with new photos every two weeks so please continue to visit.
The Other Side Of The Tracks- The Largest Collection Of Current NYC Subway Photos In The World
-Harry
Diesel 51?!? It gets used on the IRT Snow Emergency Train with the R-62As, but they also use it with the R-68s as I have found out.
51 and 54 were being used on the A Division SET and departed East 180th Street last Sunday, what day did your friend take pictures of the R-68 Snow Emergency Train?
-Stef
I'm not sure offhand- I think they were taken about a year ago for a presentation he was about the winter operations plan.
-Harry
I'm not sure offhand- I think they were taken about a year ago for a presentation he was giving about the winter operations plan.
-Harry
THANKS! Harry.
Peace,
ANDEE
Just a question that's been bugging me for a while...
When the IRT first opened how was the rolling stock put into the system? It was all underground so I don't know how they went about getting it in there. I looked at the IRT book on this website but couldn't find an explanation.
Thanks,
Harry
If my understanding is correct, cars entered the system through the old 147th Street Yard, on the Lenox Av Line, with a ramp coming off the Harlem River. The 2nd Avenue Elevated tested the some of the cars during that time and cars were floated on a barge up the river towards 147th Street.
-Stef
Stef is 100% correct, IIRC.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee,
Another thing to take note of, is that cars could also be transferred by the old 1905 Bronx connection between the 3rd Av and the Subway (namely what is the 2/5 at present). There's a picture in Joe Cunningham's Book on the IRT, showing a Composite Car being pulled by a Steamer on this connection.
It was possible to route elevated trains from 2nd and 3rd Avenues up the West Farms El, using Freeman Street as a terminus. The connection was used from 1905 to 1946.
Imagine that! Trains leaving Jackson Av and heading south could go into the subway, or continue on the el on Westchester Av and merge with the 3rd Av el at 149th Street. I always wondered why the support columns rise above the tracks as we head into the tunnel at 3rd Av, now I know what it was for....
Actually the supports near the portal weren't for running over Westchester Ave to the el at 149 st.While there was such a connection there was also the Bergen Ave cutoff that ran from over the subway portal to 143 st/3rd bypassing 149 st and relieving pressure there.
Let's say you leave Jackson on a 2nd or 3rd Ave train via Bergen next stop would have been 143 st. [upper level only BTW].
FYI delivery of the 1938 Worlds Fair IRT cars if I interpret the story right as they were going direct to Queens was into the 2nd/3rd Ave. el connection off the Harlem River..from the New Haven, and then via 2nd Ave el-Queensboro Bridge to Corona Yard.
Bigedirtmanl writes:
>Actually the supports near the portal weren't for running over >Westchester Ave to the el at 149 st.
This is unclear to me. You mean to say that el trains transversing the connector didn't go up and over the subway tracks going to/coming from the portal? Maybe I should check a track map.
>While there was such a connection there was also the Bergen Ave >cutoff that ran from over the subway portal to 143 st/3rd bypassing >149 st and relieving pressure there.
>Let's say you leave Jackson on a 2nd or 3rd Ave train via Bergen >next stop would have been 143 st. [upper level only BTW].
Agreed. This was the Bergen Av Cutoff, constructed in 1917 as an addition to the original 1905 connection, in which trains could skip 149th Street in it's entirety.
>FYI delivery of the 1938 Worlds Fair IRT cars if I interpret the >story right as they were going direct to Queens was into the 2nd/3rd >Ave. el connection off the Harlem River..from the New Haven, and >then via 2nd Ave el-Queensboro Bridge to Corona Yard.
You're right! There's a picture of this in Joe Cunningham's IRT Book in which gate cars are pulling two 1938 World's Fair Motors onto the el from the connection with the New Haven. And with that said, the Flushing Line's connection with the rest if the IRT was the Queensboro Bridge.
-Stef
My mention of the track layout was in my visual imagination from years of riding.As the Westchester-WPR el curves toward the subway you can visually follow Westchester Ave..where it meets 3rd is just north of 149 st station so I assumed I was right. I Have checked the track map in "Tracks of NY-Vol 3" from the ERA and it about proves the initial info correct..that the pillars near the portal were for the Bergen cutoff only. Hope I've been of some help///the irt-manhattan L man.
At the time of the original Broadway construction, there were no other outlets to the surface at the time except the 125th St Viaduct and I do not know how any thing would have got up there unless a temporary connection existed from some trolley tracks to the south tunnel portal as that via was the last portion of the original route completed before the opening day of Oct 24, 1904. The Lenox Ave portion opened a month later. Some cars had to be put into the system well before opening day for test purposes. Could there have also been a temporary ramp built somewhere to effect equipment loading before the subway ROW was covered again by the new Broadway street surface.
Does anyone know why they were not runing today. I rode one on the 6 today but when I went to go on the 2 they were not rolling
Robert
I don't know what I was thinking when I put in the subject line in the first post. This is what I ment.
Meant? Ment? Have a MINT, pal...
:)
I went to the Atwater Kent Museum of Philadelphia City History today. I was disappointed by the amount of transit-related material; I seem to remember there having been more the last time I visited about two years ago. Their exhibition space is tiny compared to their collection, so they can only display a fraction of their warehouses' contents at a given time. There were a few really detailed maps from the 1700's, 1901 and 1935. There was a cool photo of Market St. looking West from just before 2nd St. All the trolley tracks made a big loop just before the intersection, and it was packed with cars. It was almost a continuous line of them for blocks in both directions. Also cool was an exhibit of artifacts discovered during the building of the CC Commuter Tunnel in the early 1980's. Apparently it went through a free Black church and cemetery from around 1800 that had been completely forgotten. Only the church's foundation was found, and that was many feet under the current ground level, under a factory of some sort built before the Civil War. For only $3, it was well worth it, especially since urban history is as much a passion of mine as transit. If you're in Philly with an hour or two to kill, check it out.
There's an Atwater Kent museum in Philly? I have an Atwater Kent radio. model 84, 1931. Still works, too, or did the last time I tried it. Not bad for "unreliable tube equipment" :)
Yep, that's how the original endower of the museum made his money. The early industrialist started with automotive electrical components (he patented the first spark-plug/electric starter), then expanded to radio parts and then radios. During WWI he made rifle sights and munition components.
The people who take the G can't get the E/F/R during this GO. Why didn't they end R service at 57/7 and run the G to 71st?
They're running shuttle buses between Court Sq, 23/Ely, Queens Plaza, and 21st Queensbridge. Problem solved.
[The people who take the G can't get the E/F/R during this GO. Why didn't they end R service at 57/7 and run the G to 71st? ]
Wouldn't terminating R at 57/7 inconvinience significantly more people. G riders connect, with that GO theis options still remain L, J and M, A/C, F.
Arti
Both tracks just north of Queens Plaza will be out of service to replace the diamond crossover.
This will take more than one weekend. It will take two, possibly 3, if the Jay St and Continental ave crossover replacements are any indication. I guess they only posted it for one weekend so they can analyze the passenger and train traffic flow, to see if any changes to this new option of rerouting is necessary (of course the first would be the elimination of the R if things get too congested).
That's true. On another psoting, I talked about a supplement schedule to add running time. I think that goes on for 6 weeks. Why these posters are for one weekend I just don't know!
Work lights are up and lit at Queens Plaza North of the Station this AM.
The switch is now out of service, and it is blocked. No crossover moves can be made. The switch will be replaced, hence the need for this weekends' G.O. I don't know why the large posters are for one weekend only. The work will probably take 6 weekends, the last of which be most likely Presidents Day weekend when the concrete will be poured. Look for the new switch to be part of Queensboro Master Tower.
Could somebody tell what line did the R17s finished is days? Which R17s were painted in redbird red (I know that 6688 was one which were the others)? I know that there were a set of greenbird green running back in the 1980s which R17 6677 was one & R33 8843 with R22 7075 what were the other car #s that were painted in greenbird green?
i remember them in1972- 1976 fast wonderful rugged strong !
retired too soon if you ask me!!
also i liked the r-21-22s & the split open storm "railfan window"
Nice!!!
When new the R17 storm door windows could open too. Just for information. Guess that feature was just let go over the years.
That's true. My Trolley Museum Colleague took the time to service the rotating storm door window which hadn't worked in years. As time goes on, we're going to attempt to bring the car back in time, before the TA Modifications.....
-Stef
What was the logic behind these doors with windows which could open? Perhaps the designers thought that windows which could be opened would allow the storm doors to remain closed during the summer, still allowing good air circulation. Those latched open doors on some of the non AC'd cars made for ear splitting rides during the summer.
I might be inclined to go with circulation of air, and what made the designers go from this to the type of window found on the R-21/22 is beyond me.
-Stef
Only one R17 was painted green. The R17's last run was on 2/24/88, on the # 5 line.
Amin,
The R-17 finished it's days on the #5 Line, 2/29/88. 16 Cars were painted Redbird Red for the Flushing Line, then the 42nd Street Shuttle, 1984. The 16 cars were assigned to the Flushing Line to fill in for R-33 World's Fair Cars, out for rebuilding. They went to the shuttle until they were retired from the line, October 1987 after running on the shuttle for some 11 years (and their brief run on the 7), and were replaced by R-62s.
6688, 6681, 6614, 6579, 6550, 6626, 6665, and 6699 were among those repainted as redbirds. Some went to work service, while others were retired from active duty after 2/29/88. To date, 6688 is the sole surviving Redbird R-17 as she calls East Haven, CT home. She wasn't on the ceremonial last train on 2/29/88, as she was making her way up on the Highway to the Shore Line Trolley Museum where the car has been ever since. I'm an operator of that car, and have certainly enjoyed taking her down the 100 year old railway. She looks unusual with a trolley pole for overhead power collection, but it does work, as 3rd Rail is not permitted in the state of Connecticuit. I and several others are currenty engaged in refurbishing 6688. We hope to get repainting of the car done in the spring. If you have the opportunity to travel, why not come and see 6688 at the Trolley Museum? Go to www.bera.org, for information about the Museum. We're currently closed, but we reopen for visitors in April.
As for Greenbirds, 6677, 7075, 8842 and 43, as well as 8 other R-33s were repainted. Green was initially proposed for the repainting of cars, but was dropped in favor of Redbird Red. 6677 and 7075 were extras, subbing for the and pair of the 10 car R-33 train painted green.
To Stef and all others at BERA:
I had an absolute blast on 10/7/00 taking her most of the way from the barn to Short Beach. I can't wait for April 15th (tax season) to be out of the way so that I can come up there and help, in some way, with the continuing restoration and to drive her again. Any reader of this board who can make it up there should. Check out the Museum Roster section of this website to see pictures of 6688 as well as many other cars in the collection.
She sits quietly in the barn waiting for me to take the controls once again. You could hear the release of the brakes, one-two-three, two blasts of the car horn and off we go. I enjoy playing with her, unfortunately, I still have to finish a load of work on her.
Come on up again and take the controls one more time for Member's Day!
-Stef
SHE NEEDS TO GET DRESSED!!!
We should have a painting party this spring.
Right you are Lou ... when the weather warms a few extra hands would be appreciated.
Mr t__:^)
I remember being at Shoreline once and seeing 6688 in the shop. As luck would have it, its compressors kicked in before I left. A familiar sound, indeed.
Stef, You need to add when they were "Whitebirds". 6688 was white when she did the Shuttle duty as were a number of other Redbirds ... anybody recall the cover of the 2000 Subway Calendar ?
Mr t__:^)
Those weren't "whitebirds;" those were "canvases." :)
I'll be there to paint!
Or "pigeons", in keeping with the bird theme.:-)
Of course! 6688 as a whitebird was very clean while on the shuttle and had a refreshing blue interior. Before that, 6688 was in MTA Blue and Silver.
-Stef
That big blue strip is visable on one side of her, but not for long.
Mr t__:^)
Was the blue stripe painted on the carbon steel cars, or was it a press-on adhesive stripe? I was always curious about that.
It was painted on. Last year, while stripping paint, we were trying to figure out if the whole front end was blue or just a stripe.
Mr t__:^)
2 questions about Philly's Market-Frankford Line:
1) This site mentions that before the construction of the Frankford El, the Market Street subway continued to "Chestnut and Market" (sic). These streets don't intersect, but I think it meant it turned south to Chestnut. I've read somewhere else that it continued south to South St. Was this merely trolley tracks running in the street, as the subway was originally used by diverted street trolleys before the heavy rail was laid; or was there an elevated structure?
2) Why the station gap between 15th and 30th Sts.? On the East side of CC there are stations every 2 or 3 blocks, but on the West side of CC, there are none. 15 blocks and a river crossing is a long distance in the center of downtown between stops. Did they ever stop at the 19th and/or 22nd St. subway-surface stations? Especially given the growth of office building densities in the West Market area in the last 50 years, a station around 20th would make a lot of sense. What gives?
1. The Market Street Line used to continue as an elevated to about Delaware Avenue and South Street, before the Frankford Line was built. The impetus to go there was because there was a ferry terminal there, that got good use before the Ben Franklin Bridge. This was not closed, actually, until the 50s. There were two stations, the Market-Chestnut Station (between those two streets, not at their intersection) and South Street.
2. I think the impetus is that people will use the subway surface as a local service. Unfortunately, this alignment sucks because there are no across the platform transfers.
Thanks for the info on ?#1. Do you have a further source (web or print)? BTW you got my vote in DVARP.
What happened was that the city never bothered to build a 20th Street station when The El went "underground" in 1955, so instead there was a Subway-Surface station built, figuring that there would be patronage for the trolleys to offset abandonment by PTC (which was in the hands of National City Lines, and you know what they were infamous for). Just be lucky that they did not keep the original stations at 32nd and 36th Streets because there would be an even longer gap from there to 15th Street. Too bad that The Delaware Avenue El no longer exists, that would have made a great extention into New Jersey Via The Walt Whitman Bridge.
The Walt Whitman extension could still be done. But SEPTA needs money and political backing in Harrisburg (and Trenton, because a line to NJ would step on DRPA's toes).
I've always said that you would need a lot of green, plus isn't NJ Transit stepping on SEPTA's toes with bus service into Center City an The Atlantic City Rail Line?
..."isn't NJ Transit stepping on SEPTA's toes with bus service into Center City an The Atlantic City Rail Line? "
It's not quite the same. NJT already runs express commuter bus service to Philly from different places, so a bus to Atlantic City isn't a big deal. On the other hand, rail service across to Jersey would be if SEPTA uses a DRPA bridge (DRPA owns Ben Franklin, Whitman, Commodore Barry and Betsy Ross bridges). Conflict of interest...but if the two agencies cooperate (like MTA and NJT do out of Hoboken) then a lot of things are possible.
as to the rail line, does that start at 30th St station, or at Lindenwold? Amtrak used to run a "Gambler's Express" out of New York - do they still do that?
You have a point there.
Amtrak abandoned the "gamblers' express" years ago; NJT runs from 30th Street to Atlantic City.
So I could see Buddtrainzrule's point about NJT's stepping on SEPTA's toes re: Atlantic City by its use of 30th St station - if SEPTA owns it. If Amtrak owns it, then obviously moot.
Amtrak owns 30th Street Station.
30th St. is Amtrak's NEC headquarters.
While Amtrak's Northeast Corridor HQ's are at 30th Street Station, their Corporate HQ's are located inside of Union Station in Washington, DC. On an unrelated note, ever notice how the Market/ Frankford blue line's western terminus is in Spring Garden, PA? I believe that it's only two or three blocks outside of the Philadelphia city limits. (Note the street signs around the terminal.) Trust me, Philly street signs are very distinctive.
The69th St terminal is in Upper Darby.
The Western terminus is in Upper Darby, PA. It does have a station at Spring Garden St., but it never passes through what was once the borough of Spring Garden, now incorporated in Philadelphia City.
Upper Darby? Oops! Sorry about that! Isn't the zip code 19082? I haven't been there since October 1999. (I stll have a Septa token from that strip. It has a brownish bar accross it.)
That copper strip in the token is SEPTA's answer to the counterfeit token cartel. How that prevents counterfeiting, your guess is as good as mine.
Nope. The copper strip was put on the tokens during the last fare increase. If a token without the stripe went into a farebox or a agent's hopper, an additional fare was required. After a while, the non-striped tokens were not accepted at all.
That's not new - both PTC and Red Arrow did the same thing from time to time. I've samples of lots of different plating of Philadelphia tokens from all the operators.
..."isn't NJ Transit stepping on SEPTA's toes with bus service into Center City an The Atlantic City Rail Line? "
Isn't SEPTA stepping on NJT's toes by running the R7, R3 and maybe a bus in that area (the R3 is probably more cause to complain due to the connection. But there was the whole political thing with the Morrisville Yard etc.)
Of course, somebody has to run a train from Philadelphia to Trenton - else how would you continue your trip to New York? Could the station have been built right on the state boundary (bridge over the river)?
Why, when there's a perfectly good station already there? SEPTA and NJT are simply operating agencies that took over PC/CR trackage, they didn't create the railroad or build the stations (with a couple of exceptions).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was only kidding - electronic posting doesn't allow transmission of tenor of voice...
NJT's bus service into Center City is purely for the benefit of NJ riders. One cannot use NJT for local trips within Phila. Since SEPTA doesn't provide any bus service into NJ, it's hard to say that NJT's service hurts SEPTA.
If one wanted to cross the Walt Whitman bridge, might it not be easier to build an extension or spur of the Broad Street Subway? Not that this will ever happen, but it's another idea.
Mark Michalovic
Today, yes it would be easier to use The Ridge Avenue Spur, but back then (mind you this is ancient history), The El went over Delaware Avenue, and would have made use of then existing infrastructure and The Walt Whitman would have been built with provisions for rail service. On the other hand, if SEPTA wanted a subway to South Jersey, a tunnel could be dug under The Delaware and bypass The DRPA. As always, there has to be a lot of cash involved.
The Ferries branch of the El was an elevated line. The station at Market-Chestnut served both streets (just as Walnut-Locust, Tasker-Morris, Ellsworth-Federal, Susquehanna-Dauphin, and for you old-timers, 30th-31st!). The name doesn't imply that the streets intersect. There were ferry piers at both Market St (PRR) and Chestnut St (Wilson Line among others). The El was later extended to South St to serve the Reading RR ferry pier.
The construction of the Frankford El in 1922 caused the line to have two terminals for a while. The construction of the Ben Franklin Bridge in 1926 (the Delaware River Bridge until the 50's) took much of the ferry business away. Even so, the last of the ferries survived until 1952. The El quit the Ferries branch service in 1939, replaced by a bus (route F-1 originally, later route 83) from 2nd St station.
Most trolley routes did not extend to the Delaware River, stopping short at Front St. Similarly, Delaware Ave had railroad tracks in its bed, thus the trolley companies tended to avoid any service there.
Despite the end of El service to the ferries, a sign at the 11th St station indicated that 'Service to Ferries/Frankford' could be had from the eastbound platform (the sign was at the north end of the pedestrian crossover at the station) for some time. This sign was finally removed when the station was rehabbed in the early 80's.
Cool, thanks for the info. Do you know if there's any visible sign of the old el along S. Front St.? I've never seen anything, but then I've never looked for it. I figure there might be a foundation or something, since most trolley-wire poles are still up around that area, but then again the destruction wrought by I-95 might have obliterated everything.
Sorry, all evidence of the old Delaware Avenue El was wiped out due to I-95 and The El track relocation.
No signs, and unless you checked the website in the afternoon of January 5th you had no prior notice (the site lies and says updated Jan 4, browser says Jan 5). N terminated northbound at 42nd, but started southbound at 49th. Usually when they do this they allow passengers to stay on to 57th (and leave the station open). Also, the R was running in brooklyn only, meaning E/F local in both directions all day. Usually they extend the R to 42nd, not this time. The only signs put up directed Queensbridge shuttle-goers to the 6th ave line, where they were running from 2AV to Queensbridge (local).
I was a part of that R GO today and what a pain in the ass. The R was running shuttle from 59th-95th so that ment that you had to get the N if you were going to/from Bay Ridge. Of course with my luck thats where I was going and I took the R Shuttle from 59 to Bay Ridge Ave and I waited so long that I think I would be safe to say they had one train running the whole route. The wait took so long I shoulda just walked, but thats the TA for ya. Does anyone know why the R was only running in Bay Ridge?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" as my man Frank calls me
Surprise? Indeed. This weekend, service notices posted in Astoria el stations told only of 'N' trains skipping 49th Street, not beginning there. Instead, yesterday (Sunday), the 'N' in Astoria was a shuttle between Ditmars Blvd. and Queensboro Plaza. Also, the E and F were running local Jamaica-bound for sure, but there were no Manhattan-bound local stops open, at least between Roosevelt and QP.
E/F ran express Roosovelt to Queesn Plaza, entered on local track exited and switch to express track. Pain for the C/R's and even at 10:30pm on Sunday people stood on the platform waiting for local service and some for express (ain't express if it ain't on express track thinking I guess).
I saw an RR crossing near Wayne on route 3 (or 46?) which featured one track across the six lane highway, with a crossing light only, that said EXEMPT.
Being that it's a major highway I guess they don't run any trains through there anymore. Never saw a crossing in the middle of a highway, that's a first.
Also it seems that there appeard to be a rail line running near the Willowbrook Mall. I could just make out what looked like overhead Catenary wire in what looked like an open cut, just beyond a few residential streets.
I have seen several crossings like this in NJ, there is also one over by the HBLR as well. My dad passes the crossing you mention on almost a daily basis, and only once saw a train (but he never said what year, it could be anytime after 1970).
It couldbe that the tracks are there because they service a siding that might be used for some special equipment on a very rare basis, such as power plant apparatus, etc. The "Exempt" signs indicate that the crossing does not require a stop by buses and trucks carrying hazardous/flammable materials. If a train did need to negotiate this section of track, railroad personnel would have to flag the crossing manually.
There used to be, a couple decades ago, a single track line of the Delaware & Hudson that had a crossing northof Albany on Interstate 87!!! Yes, on a full interstate highway! The reason it was done is that the railroad was used maybe once or twice amonth, and it looked as though it might be abandoned in the future (which it was) and the highway planners did not want to spend the money on an overpass. There were plenty of warning signs from what I remember, and it, too, was marked "Exempt" when I was driving tour buses up and down I-81 on a regular basis in 1981-1982.
Is the crossing by Roosevelt Field on Stewart Ave "exempt" too? Buses don't stop at that one either I think.
Is it used anymore, or is that rail yard just south of Stewart the end of the line? I've seen some freight in there, and doesn't the "circus" train still use that track?
I remember seeing a train cross there (about 25 yrs ago though) with RR employees jumping off the train and stopping the traffic on Stewart. They also jumped off & stopped traffic at the other crossing about a block north by that entrance to Roosevelt Field. I don't think its ever used now though. The crossing at Clinton Av by the LIRR station turned firehouse has signs that say exempt.
On the RR X crossing sign, the word EXEMPT has to be there in New York State or all School Buses and trucks carring haz mat must STOP at the crossing. If there is no work EXEMPT, then the bus has to stop.
Though even if the sign EXEMPT is there, some drivers still stop, nothing wrong or unlawful with that.
Isn't I87 a fairly empty interstate? Perhaps that makes the crossing worse, though - people are going faster, and not paying as much attention, when suddenly the conductor is trying to get people to stop...
NJT's Boonton Line passes just east of the Willowbrook Mall. In that area, it's a single track with no catenary, though. No station near the mall, though. The Little Falls station is about 1.5 miles away.
CG
Are ther any NJT train stations near malls? Figured one day I'd try it out. I've seen alot of northeatern NJ (Bergen and part of Passiac, as well as Jersey City) but I'd like to check out central NJ, Edison,Woodbridge and vicinity. What is Woodbridge like? I know there's a mall there, but I haven't figured out any way to get there by public transportation.
I like NJ, it seems so different than Long Island. There's more space, they have more highways and the buses are really good. Also alot of shopping and things to do, as well as what appears to be a somewhat different pace of life from what I'm used to on "high strung" Long Island.
The NJT buses are really clean. Are NJT's trains cleaner than LIRR's?
Even Septa's trains are cleaner than LIRR's. I'd imagine most trains in the former soviet union are cleaner than LIRR's. NJT trains I have been on have been much cleaner than LIRR's.
The only rails to a mall that I can think of is HBLR to Newport Center. (PATH to Exchange Place;HBLR to Newport) There are buses to other malls that probably connect with NJT stations. Metropark is not far from either the Menlo Park Mall nor Woodbridge Center. The 62 connects from Penn Station, Newark and goes to both Jersey Gardens in Elizabeth and Woodbridge Center. (Just make sure it is the right 62 route; not all go the same route.) For a complete list of buses try the scroll down on NJT, just make sure your scroll choice is a mall and not a city shopping district. That is, Jersey Gardens you want; Elizabeth Center you don't.
Well, if you take PATCO to the Ashland Station, it is walking distance to The Echelon Mall. I prefer that than The Gallery, plus you can't beat the ride.
Its not that much of a walking distance. Most NJT buses running from Philly terminate at a mall. About 6 routes go to the Cherry Hill mall.
Well I went to see Woodbridge. Whenever I take SIR to Tottenville I wonder what it's like across the water.
I'd walk from Metropark to Woodbridge Center, is Woodbridge an OK area to walk around?
Woodbridge is not very pedestrian friendly, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
It is not pedestrian friendly at all. At least the area around the mall.
The #62 bus serves both the Metropark station and Woodbridge Center Mall.
Can you get a combination bus/rail ticket from NJT for the train and bus fare or do I have to get seperate tickets?
I notice most areas around NJ Malls aren't pedestrain friendly. Route 4 in Paramas has no sidewalk, and when I walked from Willowbrook Mall to Wayne Town Center there were no sidewalks and I had to dodge some cars.
LI Malls aren't any better. Roosevelt Field has very few sidewalks into and out of the mall and you find yourself dodging cars. Unfortunately malls gear more to car drivers than pedestrians and bus riders.
Nope. have to buy them separately. And local buses are exact change only (they take $1 bills). BTW 62 runs once an hour between Metropark and Woodbridge Center Mall. There are also rush hour feeder Academy buses under NJT contract (I believe rt 3 goes by but not into the Mall. And another one goes to RT 1 and Gill Lane(about 1/4 mile walk to the mall)
If I walked from Metropark would I have to cross highways, or are there just local roads?
I am not afriad to walk down local roads, but forget about trying to cross a six lane highway! UNless there is an overpass.
you have cross rt-1 but there is a traffic light. is long walk!! this is a loop bus in that area but i don't know if it goes to woodbrigde, it may go the menlo park mall
Well I want to see Woodbridge. Whenever I take SIR to Tottenville I wonder what it's like across the water.
I'd walk from Metropark to Woodbridge Center, is Woodbridge an OK area to walk around?
There is an NJT bus route that serves both Red Bank and Asbury Park (both of which are stops on the NJT Coast Line) and which also serves Monmouth Mall and what's left of Seaview Square. Not sure what the number is, but I get stuck behind it sometimes on 35 in Shrewsbury and Eatontown.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That would be the M22.
How could you get stuck behind it and still not know the route number?
One of the things that give bus maintenance people fits is rear number boxes on buses. The constant vibration causes problems and the cabling to the box fail quite a lot. In Baltimore 80% of the buses with rear route number displays have failed units. The MTA is no longer buying buses with rear route displays.
The newest Orions at NYCT and LIB have rear route signs. They do malfunction alot, especially at LIB. So what do you mean by MTA's new buses not having rear route signs?
The MTA is also the initials of the transit authority in Baltimore.
CG
Actually I don't know about cleanliness, but the few times I've ridden NJ Transit, I've found that I don't like them nearly as much as the LIRR and Metro-North MU series. I find them to be rather cramped myself.
:) Andrew
That sounds like the crossing on RT 46 in Elmwood Park Near the GSP entrance. There also is one (it may be gone now) on RT 17 in Lodi.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yup, it was near a Garden State Parkway entrance and it was route 46.
FYI, their used to be a garage there for the defunct "Manhattan Lines"
bus company. A company absorbed by NJT.
Peace,
ANDEE
"EXEMPT" means that vehicles that are required to stop at RR crossings don't have to stop at this one - for example, buses and any vehicle posted as carrying hazardous materials.
In practice, this means that the crossing operates "backwards" from the norm - trains stop for cars, instead of the other way around. The train will stop, crew will activate the crossing signal/gate (if not automatic - there still are some, though the one you refer to is automatic) and flag traffic. Once traffic has been stopped, the train will proceed across the crossing at restricted speed, the crew will release the signal/gate (if needed) and verify that any flares, etc. are extinguished or will at least not start any fires, and then re-board the train.
Wow sounds pretty interesting. I guess the chance of seeing a train crossing like this area pretty rare since it doesn't happen that often, and it probably happens late at night.
Too bad you can't get schedules of freights.
These are generally on little-used (or unused) crossings. Most of the exempt crossings are tracks to industrial parks or similar, and not heavily-used trackage. On the Route 46 one in question, I have seen it used during the day (1 PM or so) on occasion. I haven't been commuting through there in many years, though, so I can't say if it still gets that use or not.
I'm going on a ruin-fanning trip tomorrow (Sunday) to explore the Callowhill and Pennsylvania Ave. tunnels. After 6 years away from FL I can finally deal with a little snow. Interested in joining me, respond by noon tomorrow.
When was the last time that a 75' car (R44-46-68-68A) ran through the Nassau St line? I heard back then that there was a R46 laying up @ the deadend north of Chambers St were those tracks went through the Manny B,(pre Chrystie St)what movie were they filming involving those R46s car, especially what was the name of that movie?
I remember riding home and seeing an R46 sitting on 1 track at Essex and being very confused. I think the movie was Great Expectations. They showed an R46 signed up as the G train (with green interior, everything in that damn movie was green) running over the Williamsburg bridge. I'm not 100% sure if this is the one you're referring to.
Shawn.
I saw the first half of this movie "Great Exceptation" that u just mention & I saw a R46 marked "G" that Ethan Hawke character exits the train @ 7th Ave Sta on the "F" & "G" lines. Probably thats the one!
I remember having been on a D train that took a wrong lineup northbound at DeKalb Av. He went via Nassau St to Essex St then changed ends and ran thru the Chrystie St cut back to the 6th Av line. By the way the T/O was running on the platform, this was being done on the "hush hush". There's no question that 75 footers can fit on the Nassau St line (in the Manhattan part anyway).
You can confirm punch at Lawerence and since the rash of N drivers punching wrong last year, the Nassau punch was removed from the 10 car stop marker.
The Manhattan part doesn't have the curves, it is the East Brooklyn part such as that hard right and hard left on the L line at Graham Ave and Montrose Ave. The trains go pretty fast around those curves when you think about how hard they are.
However, the punch at B'wy-Lafayette says NO 75 FOOT CARS above ESSEX ST.
right so that's probably where the TA feels the 75 footers should stop so as to avoid the Brooklyn curves.
I ask you, wounldn't this be one possible solution to the Manny B flip?
Run the "D" &"B" via Nassua, Have the T/O of the previous consist waiting ad the reversing end to resume on the 6th Ave line. The T/O that took it thru Nassau then walks to the back of the platform to await the next train? Or would it tie up the "J","M", and "Z" to much?
avid
That's exactly what was done in 1982 during a weekend Manhattan Bridge closure. It's not practical for regular daily operation, though. Makes you wish those tracks from Houston to Delancey were turned in the opposite direction.
Rather then closing off half of the canal tracks , a route as you suggest should have been dug to give that "Just-In-Case" flexibility.
Isn't hindsight wonderful. It would be some thing like the connection between the 53rd st crosstown segment from Seventh Ave and both uptown and downtown branches of the 8th Ave line. Just coming off one set of lines instead of two.
avid
There are two stub end tracks just north of 57th/7th on the N/R line. These extend after all the switches for 60th and 63rd are done, and then a few hundred more feet. It was planned to go to the Upper West Side, if any other major connection is going to take place this decade, maybe the TA should consider connection those stub tracks to the CPW R-O-W.
I think the engineers missed the boat on this one. The two stub tracks should have extended further north into a pair of turnaround pocket tracks. This would have allowed express trains to travel to Queens, and local trains to terminate at 57th Street. (On most lines, the expresses go further than the locals.)
There are two stub end tracks just north of 57th/7th on the N/R line. These extend after all the switches for 60th and 63rd are done, and then a few hundred more feet. It was planned to go to the Upper West Side...
Actually, those are for the possible connection to the Second Avenue line. The tracks continue to the other side of the wall at Lexington and 63rd.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He's referring to the other stub trackways, I guess. They were meant to go the same place the express tracks were meant to go back when they were stubs before 63st got built. I thought they should have connected the local to 63rd as well using these stubs, but I guess not...
Nope , New flyer is correct. The local tracks north of the 57th St Station on 7th ave were to go to Morningside Heights. They were to travel under Central Park. I think these were planned pre-Dual contracts. I'm not positive.
I advocate running them up under Central Park to a point between 72nd St. and 86th St., and bringing them both up from below the layup tracks. Thereby giving a connection from either the local or express tracks of the Central park West portion of the 8th Ave lines, uptown and downtown. Both "B" and "D" service could then have a safty valve for the next time the Manny B craps out. The southside of the
avid Manny B or the tunnel would be available when all the construction is EVER finished.
avid.
I'm not sure that the BMT Upper West Side line was ever actually "planned." Rather, the BMT built the tail tracks north of 57th Street - 7th Avenue because the company wanted the Rapid Transit Commission (or whichever body was in power in those days) to award it the upper west side line and wanted to be able to show the RTC that they already had partial construction done. Turns out that Hylan came to power and used that line for the IND.
I don't think the BMT Upper West Side line was formally part of the Dual Contracts discussion.
In that Great book "SUBWAYS" I think by Colllier did it. But the inside of the front and rear covers had a real and a "future" subway map. What eever, we seem to be speaking about the same tracks and plans.
avid
That would be very difficult given the fact that the northbound and southbound tracks are on two levels. Tying them into the express tracks, OTOH, would be fairly simple.
Think about it a little more. You have a nice long layup track, both levels. You send the uptown track under first, as soon as possible , begin the ramp. Go up 2 levels to the uptown layup. As soon as the uptown ramp clears the floor of the downtown layup , slide the down town connection under and start its ramp. I beleive there is enough of a run to allow the uptown ramp to go up two levels. Does anyone have the exact length of the layups in question? How long for the acceptable incline? For example , the "A" train goes from an Elavated to a subway , two levels Plus in an equaliant distance. Ponder over it for a while.
avid
There are two stub end tracks just north of 57th/7th on the N/R line. These extend after all the switches for 60th and 63rd are done, and then a few hundred more feet. It was planned to go to the Upper West Side...
Actually, those are for the possible connection to the Second Avenue line. The tracks continue to the other side of the wall at Lexington and 63rd.
Sorry, Anon, but you're thinking of something totally different. At 57/7, the local tracks presently curve inward a bit and continue on to the 60th St. tunnel. The express tracks can go either to 63rd St. or 60th Street. There are trackways (with some bits of un-connected rail) leading up from the local tracks to the outside. These were supposed to go to the Upper West Side.
What you are referring to is the continuation of the express tracks, G3 and G4. They go north and then east and into the presently-unused side of Lexington Ave., behind the false wall. A train coming up from 57 & 7 will cross over at X-26 ball and proceed into Queens on T2 track (and vice versa coming from Queens--T1 crossing over to G3).
If you have my book, look on P. 13 (map Uptown F)
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
I always wondered about those ramps. Wouldn't it have been a good idea to connect these unused ramps to the 63rd. St. leads to allow maximun flexibility for potential 2nd. Ave service? As it is today, the only way for Broadway locals to access the 63rd. St line is to cross over to the express tracks south of 57/7th.
As overbuilt as the IND is, you have to give kudos to the folks who designed it for its built-in flexibility.
err - there is no connection at 53rd & 7th Ave. - the tracks are parallel & stop on opposite sides of the same platform, but there is no track connection.
subfan
Go back and look again. The local tracks extend to 59th street and a tad or two under Central Park. Perhaps your are thinking of something else.The North bound side has a shed or shanty of some sort hust after the switchto the downward leg of the 63rd segment.
avid
That would require a tad of wrong-railing. To be practical it would have to be:
1. One line only
2. Rush hour direction only.
The only line which can make both north and south terminals and use B'way in one direction and 6th in the other is the Q. Therefore, the Q would end up being the only 6th ave/Brooklyn BMT line, and only in the rush direction.
The way those moron politicians are going, this would end up being a service.
I've had the opportunity to ride a number of R-142s on the 6 and 2 lines recently, and find them to be a dull, sanitized ride.
Oh sure, there's a lot of glitz, in the form of the electronic strip maps and the LED station announcement signs. But I find the electronic voice announcements to be extremely mechanical and cold. I'd rather hear the good old voice of a human conductor, errors, accents and all. And I also find the flourescent lighting to be too bright and the plastic seating much too plain. In all, the car has a sterile look about it, with no warmth or character about it at all. Think I'm still going to wait for a Redbird wherever possible.
The R44/46 did car interiors right.
Good luck in waiting for a redbird, I was doing the same thing waiting for an Almond Joy train when they were getting the M-4 Adtrash (excuse me, Adtranz) cars. When they first got them, I've only rode them twice, the first time, it broke down, the second, New Year's day (no bus service whatsoever into Market east no thanks to The Mummers; more of this on Bus Talk). Nowadays, I've avoid riding the el as much as possible. I will never forgive SEPTA for getting rid of The Almond Joys, in fact, SEPTa is very proud of the fact that they got rid of them. On their website, at the museum store page, it saids "In celebration of the retirement of the M-3 Budd fleet...", it should say, "As we mourn the loss of the M-3 Budd fleet...". SEPTA, do me a favor and not shove that M-4 in my face, as I wait anxiously for their turn to head for the scrapyard, and embrace the M-5 cars (no "Star Trek" jokes please), which I bet, will be 5 years from now.
There was an "M-4" in Star Trek lore as well - that was the flying robot that protected Rayna 16, Mr. Flint and the ryetalin on the OS episode "Requiem for Methuselah."
I'll bet that that Star Trek machine was more reliable than anything made by ADTRASH.
LOL
if Daimler/Chrysler made it, it is usually crap. lets hope Bombardier has an effect on their quality for the better.
Adtranz was Daimler Chrysler's answer to National City Lines 8-)
I think a mistake was made to go with an all white interior. It's gonna look bad in no time. I've noticed that the one R-142a that I've been on on the 6 line had some artwork in it, above the side window on the interior side of the electronic destination sign. But on all the Bombardier R-142's that I have been on on the 2 line, there's no artwork, its just blank. Are all of the Kawasaki cars going to have art above the window, or was that just one train? And if there is going to be art on all the cars, is it going to be the same mural on all cars, or are different murals planned throughout the Kawasaki fleet?
Also, I've read in the latest Railfan magazine that the M-4's are literally falling apart. Especially the seats (which I guess could be replaced).
As long as the interior is scratch resistant than who cares what color it is or what it looks like. The interior of the R142's looks a lot better to me than an R62A that has scratti covering every piece of exposed steel. There are very few parts of the R142's that are left available for scratching.
Shawn.
no those spaces most likely will be used for ads. daimler-chrysler is to blame for the M-4's falling apart. they weren't built well.
SEPTA did it for the better. from my experience, riding the almond joys was scary. they were loud, and mechanically impaired. they were in such bad shape, SEPTA couldn't have them rebuilt. thank god i wasn't in the crash 12 years ago, for i was on the train before the one that crashed visiting Phila. maybe the new cars aren't all that and still cause glitches but, i rather have cars that glitch than a cars losing its pieces along the way.
I absolutely loved the Almond Joys, though I only rode them (as a conscious railfan) during the summer. Hot, storm doors open, loud, blinking lights. The R-10s of Philly. The ADTRANS are allright, I don't hate them, i'd rather have had a half-n-half fleet. What, nobody ever heard of segmenting fleet replacement? Do exactly half, wait a decade, then the other half. That way if you f**k up you have a second chance. Imagine how depressing the IRT would be if the R-26 thru 36 had been replaced with R-62s along with the R-12 thru 22? Scratched up steel paneling would be on every IRT car until 2030.
I wouldn't call cracking trucks and doors popping open on the wrong side or not pop open at all a couple of glitches, and that has happened on some of the M-4 fleet. And as for the 1990 30th street accident, common sense will tell you that you do not support a 700-lb. traction motor with a single bolt and cotter pin, so the motor mounts were replaced with new mounts that had a ring around the motor and suspended from the sides of the trucks (a design that was used on PCC trucks). Sure it was a very critical design flaw on the Adirondack trucks, but at the same time, it was also easily correctable. A brand new train shold not have their brand new trucks cracking after only a year in service.
of course like what the adirondack trucks were to the almond joys, the same for the cracked trucks and pop open doors were the Adtranz. (Adtrash on your behalf) a manufacturing flaw which was corrected. so, the Adtranz is up and running now. i understand how you feel about losing the almond joys as we are losing our redbirds very slowly. but these cars are falling apart. they have to go.
Can you say R-46?
> Good luck in waiting for a redbird
Are you kidding? The Redbirds completely dominate the #2 line! There is only a small number of R-142 trains in the entire system! It is just about impossible to ride the #2 line regularly (or the #5 or #7 line, for that matter) without riding a Redbird! So what are you talking about?
- Lyle Goldman
I find the exterior sides of the car boring. For some reason, the decision was made (as with the upcoming R-143) to have no corrugations in the stainless steel. Hell...even if they went back to painting fat blue stripes on the sides of the cars, they would look a little sharper.
At least the front end has some character, although I can't understand why the front windows are asymentrical.
who owns the blue prints for the design of these rapid transit cars? just curious.
Yeeeeeeee-ha!!
Find me one smiling passenger on any
r142 car....... it CAN'T be done!!
The newness and novelty of the R142s (and a's) got old fast. I have ridden the ones on the #6 a number of times. It just doesn't surprise people anymore. Which is par for the course for New Yorkers.
Speaking of novelty wearing off...
...anyone seen or heard from the "test train"
which was wisked away into the 207 Yard
for "modifications" soon after passing
the 30-day finish trip arm??!?!
....it CAN'T be found!!
no railfan ( storm front window)
at least this could have been installed !!
The railfan window is installed, just for employees. Look harder next time.
not the same you still have to look thru the cab which is usually blocked off sometimes with newspaper!
The cab window is now also covered with the same material found on other cars that is tinted refracts the light. I assume all of this is for the comfort of the T/O. It is possible to see through the window but it looks more like a kolidescope than a railfan window :)
PS Does anyone know the technical term for that stuff? :)
Shawn.
It's called a polarizing filter in most uses.
-Hank
Salaam,
Grab a fork! Soon will come the day when we can devour
"sticking a fork" in the r-142s... and bring a tripod
to Maxell the experience!
watch & see the redbirds hang tough in spite of this new junk !!
Agreed. The Redbirds are like faded denim jeans or comfortable old shoes - old and beat up, but always useful and ready to go.
Last time I rode a redbird was about 10 years ago. When I looked in the cab though the one thing that truly depressed me was the incredible amounts of body rot ... especially around the motorman's window and down the wall behind the controls. When the train got to 242, asked him to open the door panel and the seat by it so I could show him a couple of tricks ... the multi-door bauble for instance where a dropped lead would cause the doors on the other side of the car to open if you opened one side ... and no, kids, do NOT try this at home, thus I won't go into the rest. My expectation is that they redesgined the door sensors since on the redbirds, but once upon a time you could manually open a door and get the doors on the other side of the car to start bumping if you did it just right.
Anyhoo, the amount of rust I saw way back when was incredible. much like that which you would expect to see on a 1970's GM convertible automobile that had never been garaged. How the redbirds have not collapsed under their own weight amazes me. I'd never get on one nowadays unless I had been assured that new steel had been welded under the chassis at least. Them puppies had some serious water intrusion problems and that's back when they were vital, before the "house windows in threes" were replaced with those silly-looking "cut from Flushing line or brightliner" type windows ... I shudder to think. As much as I like the redbirds, they STILL didn't have the charm of a Lo-V ... so please excuse me if I'm not as passionate about them as others. The Lo-V's had SOUL ... Wagner's Waggens were interlopers to me.
from my experience, even though its not a novelty anymore (or was one to begin with cause New Yorkers don't care about much)there are still suprised faces. people still talk about it in a good way. some people hate the bright walls. on Monday around seven p.m. coming from pelham on the 142A, a few people who got on were impressed. the following day on a 142 on the 2, people were talking about how nice it is and when bypassing stops, people were staring and pointing at the new equipment. yes it is a bore now but, if you sit in these new trains and observe and pay more attention to people looking around inside a 142, or if you pay attention to their conversations, then you know that the novelty still exists. if you think i'm bluffing, meet up with me at times-square 42nd street and sit with me and see the peoples faces, even though there is so little of people impressed.
The R-46 interior is arguably the nicest and most durable of all the car interiors. The marlite surfaces have held up very well. In fact, the TA has lots of marlite with the embossed MTA logo in stock & I actually tried to have it installed on the R-68 bulkheads during the SMS.
As for the R-142s, unless you are a railfan, what you really want is a sanitized ride. The cars have clean lines and are nice and bright. they are relatively smooth and quiet. Regular passengers like it although subfans might not.
(The R-46 interior is arguably the nicest and most durable of all the car interiors. The marlite surfaces have held up very well. In
fact, the TA has lots of marlite with the embossed MTA logo in stock & I actually tried to have it installed on the R-68 bulkheads during the SMS. As for the R-142s, unless you are a railfan, what you really want is a sanitized ride. The cars have clean lines and are nice and BRIGHT. they are relatively smooth and quiet. Regular passengers like it although subfans might not.)
The problem is, if you are use to the R46s and Redbirds, you are used to a cream interior, which is somewhat muted. The R142s are very bright, with white walls and more light. Even the metal walls seem to absorb more light than the white walls in the R142s. As a result, I find the R142 interiors to be a little jarring. A darker car gives more of a feeling of privacy and quiet, something you need when you are packed in with all of humanity on your way to work every day.
Moreover, it doesn't exactly give a classy feel. It reminds me of the cinderblock interior hall of a public housing project, covering in glossy white paint.
Its just very stark. The flat, featureless exteriors bother me too. Can't we have a little style with our commute? (though not as far out as the R-40 :-)
(Its just very stark. The flat, featureless exteriors bother me too. Can't we have a little style with our commute? (though not as
far out as the R-40 :-)
I don't see what would be wrong with keeping the typical MTA nose, from the M1 and R46s. Exceptional stuff looks better if it stands out, while unexceptional stuff looks better if it fits in. If they had kept the MTA nose, all the trains would have looked about the same in 15 years.
As for the interior, I like the black floors -- less likely to show dirt and wear. But I would have preferred a more muted tone on the walls. You want the train to seem like riding in a living room, not a bathroom.
Yes, it does look like a bathroom, doesn't it? All that's missing is the white tile.
Oh, for the days of the R1-9's - now there was style! The BMT Standards too....
All that's missing is the white tile
We have that on the platform walls!
We have Brightliners, Redbirds, Slants, et al. Behold - the Bathtubs!
so the R-142's should be nicknamed the Bathtubs because of the white walls or the milk cartons. (corny isn't it)
Yes! Nice to have someone aboard on my wave length. The good old pre-war stuff of all types of course I'll defer to those disagreeing that its period style. (keep the Multi's and a few others out please).
I still have to give credit to the R44/46 for being about the nicest of the modern fleet. The metal panelling in the 62 and 68 is too institutional. What little I've seen of the '142 I have to agree with all of you. TOO sterile and bright .
Yeah, those ceiling fans on the R-1/9s were, shall we say, quaint. I liked them nontheless.
I agree that the R-46 interior is most pleasant. In fact, it's my favorite feature on the R-46s, next to the electronic signs. The door chimes, well, as long as they're in tune....
at least the brightness and sterile look makes the cars look and feel cleaner than all the other cars in the system
If I was the czar of car design, the new rolling stock would have the front end of the R143-B, the sides of an R42, the roof of an R68, and the interior of an R-46.
Since we can't go back to 1904-1935 or so I'd almost agree with you.. how about the sides of the R40M instead of the R42? But please, never those awful R40 seats!
I'd throw in spur-cut bull and pinion gears.:-)
Give them time; they'll be scratched and filthy soon enough ;).
Actually, I was on #7225 yesterday, and the strip map was already scratched pretty badly :(.
luckily the plastic housing over it is there to protect it from vandalism
yes yo will see sharpie shadow (when vandals use permanent markers on the walls and then the TA will clean off the mess that will leave smears from the marker or imprint of a tag left behind) also look for scratches around the window sil and seats since they aren't vandal proof. on Bom R-142 scraches on extra stainless steel will appear next to the doors. hasen't happen yet though
i feel this same way about all of the newer transit cars after the r 38 era !!
Be careful what you wish for -- 15 years from now someone at Jay Street might get the bright idea to paint the interiors of the R-142s pistachio green with gray doors and yellow stenciled interior car numbers and "Please Keep Hands Off The Doors" lettering.
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it...
I wonder if they still have any of that pistachio green paint kicking around. Someone must have made the TA a helluva deal just to get all that paint off their hands.
So long as the R-32s are still around, I'd be scared to think that paint might show up again on a New York City subway car after the next overhaul.
Now a pistachio green-and-gray R-68 interior -- that would be interesting, especailly if they painted all the seats with the same gray paint that chipped off the first time it got wet, like they did on the R-7 through R-36 cars :-)
Federal surplus, just like that weird blue paint that did many a station I beam column ... TA bought in bulk and passed the savings on to you.
That may explain the interior colors the MTA ended up with -- only the U.S. military would want to buy pistachio green and gray paint in that amount -- actually, only the U.S. military would want to buy paint in that color combination, period.
But it came REAL cheap and was only slightly radioactive. Just kidding. Most of the El paint was also surplus, a large order of green and the brown stuff too.
Hey, if it had glowed in the dark the MTA never would have had to fix the Redbirds during GOH so the lights wouldn't flicker when the third rail connection was lost. In fact, instead of only the route signs having that green flourecent glow, the whole train could have had it.
Hahahaha ... I think I know what we can do then when Indian Point II springs a leak again ... does Martian Paint still give away them wooden swizzle sticks for paint? It'll save more electrons than all them 142's trying to back feed an empty third rail segment.
Don't knock surplus paint... back in the early '70s a friend and I purchased a large number of surplus telephone company cars - mostly '65 Dodge Dart 2-door sedans - and fixed them up for resale. We bought them frightfully cheap because, among other things, they were this nasty shade of olive green. Surprisingly, the cars were structurally solid - no rust-through on them, although there was a bit of surface rust on most... anyway, we did the mechanical basics - tuned them all up, replaced clutches, brakes, and tires as necessary, cleaned and primed the worst of the surface rust, and painted every one of them. The paint? Mis-mixed automotive paint from all the paint stores within a 50 mile radius. We paid up to $2 per gallon for it, but much of it we got free just for hauling it away. We'd mix a few gallons together - enough to do three or four cars - and spray away. The next group would start with whatever was left from the last ones with some additional colors added. By careful mixing we ended up with some reasonable shades of blue, green, brown, and gold, and some off-whites as well, and since we were painting the entire car (not the door jambs though - we weren't trying to compete with Earl Schieb) the exact shade didn't matter. Only once did we get part way through a car and run out, so that one ended up with two coats on much of it.
At least one of those cars, a dark blue one, was still running in 1996.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a question, I haven't been in NYC for about 3 months. Just how many of the new R142s are in service?
B61Leonard
And how many of them are amused by Subfans staring at their paint? :0) :0) :0( (in case a few of you didn't find that funny)
Did the train take you where you needed to go? Yes? Then it did it's job admirably. It's not there to look pretty for railfans, it's a form of transportation.
-Hank
I do think the cars should look pleasing to the eye somewhat...
METROCARD & CARDHOLDERS COLLECTOR¹S CATALOG
This is an 8.5 inch x 11inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collector¹s MUST HAVE. The supply is very limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea. plus $2. P & H in check or Money Order.Made out to: Mike Makman,
To: Prof. Putter, Po Box 755, Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
Folks. Check out this live traffic webcam of the Van Wyck Expway at the Grand Central. Is that the Jamaica Yard at the left of the picture?? Can Anyone make it out for sure?? I have webtv and my TV pic isn't so clear. Here is the URL: http://metrocommute.com/cgi-bin/metro/video/QUEENS/video531.html
Don't know. It's not too clear on a computer either.
Peace,
ANDEE
This one shows a little piece of the Babylon line in Massapequa in the upper left hand corner just under the time.The url is http://metrocommute.com/cgi-bin/metro/video/LI/video731.html Its only recently that this cam showed it, It used to be more to the right. I guess the camera has a tendency to move.
Here's another webcam. The overpass in the background, just above the message board sign is the overpass that the Oyster Bay Branch uses to cross the LIE between E Williston & Albertson. It would be very rare to see a train as the picture reloads about every 3-5 minutes and there are very few trains crossing there, and they are very short, taking only a few seconds to cross. The url is http://metrocommute.com/cgi-bin/metro/video/LI/video722.html
Not too clear on my computer, but I've seen Metro Traffic Reports and the shot of the Kew Gardens Interchange has a peice of Jamaica Yard in the lower left corner of the pix.
Can't see anything clear now. Gotta wait for daylight.
Sorry, but the webcam is alot clearer today and what I thought was the Jamaica yard is cleary a big parking lot.
I read back a few weeks. Someone posted that on the MBTA the tunnels are well lit and it is not necessary for subways to use headlights. Just how bright are the tunnels? Are they brighter then the LIRR tubes? I assume they are nothing like the NYCTAs dim tunnel lights.
The brightness in the MBTA tunnels vary, but in most cases, they are bright enough to read rail. Of course, when a train enters a tunnel from surface running, it will usually require headlights for a number of seconds, until the motorperson's eyes adjust. Generally, it is easier to see personnel signalling with flashlights with the headlights off. I have no knowledge of how this compares to other tunnels.
I have just made a complete round trip on the J from Jamaica Center to Broad St and return, enjoying the view through the storm door window of Salaam's video camera. I believe this was filmed in October!
I have seen several of Salaam's videos in the past, and each one seems to be better than the one before. He had relatively graffiti free windows on these J train trips, and the pictures are very good.
Most of you know that it has been many years since I have ridden a subway train in New York and I particlularly enjoyed seeing the system again, especially my home line. The tape also includes trips on the L and the M, and I am looking forward to viewing them as time permits. If you like videos from the railfan window, you should really enjoy this latest tape!
I observed a person with a camera videotaping me while entering 121 street on the J tonight at 8:50. I wonder if it was him?
No, he's in LA... only comes east once a year or so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
To experience the ultimate express run, play the tape in fast-forward. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Especially if it's a video of an A train headed up CPW. I can only imagine fast-forwarding a video of an R-10 A train, if such a video were to exist.:-)
depends pn the model & make of the VCR maybe the JVC flying erase head models are best suited for this special effect. You can lock the fast foward search mode & see this
thank you sir the L J M tape is one # 7 #2 #5 #436 some shot inside a r 62 motormans cab! the A & Q trains etc..
it was enjoyable and my legs and feet were very tired when i was done! also the sound is improved as well along with the ususlly 6 hour long viewing etc. Anyway i enjoys all of this stuff & i can go home anytime. we are working on a tape of the orange empire museum as well
thanks i am glad you liked it ( the video )
I just rode the M and made the the trip from Bay Parkway all the way to Metropolitan Ave on your video. I couldn't believe all of the changes to Metropolitan Ave station. I realize that it had a major fire since I last saw it. I figured out that I last used that station about 43 years ago.
I'll bet nothing much has changed at Chambers St. You said a while back that it didn't look all that good even back in the 50s.
Chambers St looked pretty bad in Salaam's video, worse than I remembered. Chamber's St has been neglected for way too many years.
It probably hasn't been painted since the '50s.
Actually, it may not be the worst neglected part of the system. Parts of the Sea Beach line in Brooklyn may have not been rehabbed since it opened in 1915!
--Mark
Warning! Shameless plug ahead!
I'm also working on a video called "Railfanning the BMT Eastern Division" which has cab runs and runbys of, well, the BMT Eastern Division :), amongst some others. This complements the current video I have called "BMT South & East".
The 61st St / Woodside Station & LIRR platforms are very interesting places to grab shots at night, during the evening rush hour.
My video list will be updated in the coming weeks.
End shameless plug!
--Mark
Say, Mark, you videotaped the Roosevelt Ave. terminal station once, didn't you? If so, is it pretty comprehensive? In other words, does the footage begin at the station mezzanine as you enter the corridor? Just curious.
It begins about 1/2 way through the corridor, walks along the Rockaway-bound trackway, then through the scissors crossover, along the Roosevelt Ave bound trackway, includes the Manhattan-bound through-service ramp leading down to the IND Queens Blvd Line (in fact, I video an R-46 pulling out of Roosevelt Ave / Jackson Heights from that vantage point, came out decent but not perfect), shows you the "end of the line", then walks back. I even have a short sequence standing on the island platform, which is the only view many people will ever get of "waiting for a train" on that platform. Then I walk back through that corridor until the end of it.
Yeah, pretty comprehsnsive if you ask me.
It's called "You Can't Get There From Here".
Dave has some stills I took from the video and if the gamma rays are with us, they should be available as part of the "disused / abandoned stations" page RSN. (The lighting, as you'd probably imagine, is pretty poor, but the video does pick up the images of everything really well).
--Mark
What does RSN mean?
It's a highly technical web site development term that means "Real Soon Now". :-)
It begins about 1/2 way through the corridor, walks along the Rockaway-bound trackway, then through the scissors crossover, along the Roosevelt Ave bound
trackway, includes the Manhattan-bound through-service ramp leading down to the IND Queens Blvd Line (in fact, I video an R-46 pulling out of Roosevelt Ave /
Jackson Heights from that vantage point, came out decent but not perfect), shows you the "end of the line", then walks back. I even have a short sequence standing
on the island platform, which is the only view many people will ever get of "waiting for a train" on that platform. Then I walk back through that corridor until the end
of it.
Yeah, pretty comprehsnsive if you ask me.
It's called "You Can't Get There From Here".
I wouldn't mind getting a copy of that sometime myself :)
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
I find it a bit amusing that people seriously want to retain the old Budd cars and not use the new ones.
I can see where nostalgia and tradition come in here. I loved the old cars that roared down the Grand Concourse in the 1960's; no air conditioning, a puny fan blowing hot air overhead; jerky stops and starts and stuck doors. But they had style.
The Budd cars were nearly 40 years old, were sweltering hot in summer, were LOUD to the point where people's hearing could be seriously damaged by riding them every day, and were in such a state of disrepair that a passenger was killed when a car losta motor, forced a switch, and was slammed into a support pillar.
I've ridden the Adtranz cars a few times. Not enough times to witness their shortcomings, of course. But assuming that they are mechanically OK, or the bugs can be worked out, I do like them a lot better.
If I recall correctly, the Market-Frankford Line is a narrow-gauge railway. If this is correct, this is one thing I wish SEPTA (or its predecessor) had not done. It would have been nice if SEPTA could order cars for use on either of its subway lines, or at the very least, usedstandard gauge trucks to simplify manufacturing...
Adtranz is now part of Bombardier. Is that likely to improve their reputation?
The Market-Frankford line is "Pennsylvania Standard Wide-Gauge", 5 feet, 2 1/2 inches.
So I it is actually wider than standard gauge (4 feet 8.5 inches). I'm sure that offers advantages in operation - but equipment commonality is probably not one of them.
Thanks for posting the info.
When the Market Street Subway/Elevated was built in 1906, the subway was built by the city and the elevateds on each end (Market St. and Delaware Avenue) were built by the Market Street Elevated Railway Company (a subsidiary of the Philadelphia Rapid Transit Company [PRT])
The line was constructed to the streetcar gauge of 5' 2 1/4" in order to use streetcar work equipment during the construction.
When the City built the Broad Street Subway in 1928, they used the BRT/BMT construction standards, resulting in the standard gauge in use there.
Thus, the Philadelphia saying "Market is Broad, and Broad is Standard".
Very cute, and appropriate.
Seriously, it really surprises me when people are going around saying "Keep the old Almond Joys" Now, I have ridden those trains most of my life, and the extremely squeaky turns and screeching do not appeal to me, in addition to the flickering lights and the bad airconditioning. I never hated them, they were interesting, but the Adtranz trains are much more comfortable in my opinion. I remember how they used the wistle to announce the doors closing. One time my family was boarding it, and the doors closed right in my mother's face, right between her and my father. from then on I was always nervous and rushing out to exit the train, since the conductor couldn't see me. Now, they have cameras on the platforms on view screens in the driver's compartment so they can witness the boarding and alighing of passengers. Also, these trains are going to be automated, and all in all I think they are much more comfortable, although i'm not one for only one window between each set of doors. Also, i don't really like that high whine of whatever it is, whether it's the airconditioning or whatever. But I prefer riding these, and there is also a window on the passengers side at the front of the car, and when you are on the elevated track over Market Street, it's a great view to the city. Also, about SEPTA ordering cars for use on all of teh subway lines, I actually prefer having one type of train for this line and another for another line. It gives a lot of variety, although I always pictured the Adtranz cars runnign on the Broad Street line in BSL colors.
I can appreciate your preference for variety of cars - I think that's great. But if at least the trucks are the same as those on the Broad Street Line, the rest of the car can look different and SEPTA's maintenance department would have an easier time taking care of things.
I second your vote for views on the Frankford elevated and the West Philly side too). I want this line extended! (OK, pipe dream)
Extended to where? Along Rt. 30?
Gosh, I don't have that sketched out. Also, not having lived there since 1993, I wouldn't remember. I had the impression it didn't go far enough north.
OK- you can save me by deciding where to extend it, and I'll say "Of course, that's what I was thinking of," or " I knew that."
:0)
If I was head of SEPTA, I would have retained Budd cars, had them shipped off to Morrison-Knudsen (or it's succesor), have the cars completely rebuilt, have A/C installed (I would sacrifice the arch ceiling), installed all new seats and new doors with safety inerlocks as well, electronic chopper controls, and find at least 270 sets of Pioneer III's. I would retain the traction motors and gearboxes. Or place an order with Vickers for 220 Almond Joy II's, and have the latest stuff in it (except it would retain the DC traction motors). The first option would have been cheaper.
Pioneer IIIs? What are those?
Pioneer III's were the 6 1956 stainless steel MU cars Budd built the the PRR. They were a landmark design with AC/DC rectifiers and a praticiularly good truck design. The basic design was used in the Silverliner MU series and the trucks were used in the Amfleet fleet.
Thanks much.
I've meant the trucks that were used on most Budd cars between 1959 until the last cars built. The reason why The Almond Joys used Adirondack trucks was due to the fact that the city owned half the fleet, the same reason why The Almond Joys married pairs were mixed marriages (odd numbered cars had GE 1250F1 traction motors, favored by the city, and even numbered cars and all single units had Westinghouse 1454A traction motors, favored by PTC). Incidentally, you could tell which motors were faster by their sound (which were the 1454A's). If it wasn't for the fact the city cheaped out on the trucks, and the cars were air-conditioned, The Almond Joys would still be around.
Except the Budds weren't Air Conditioned. The "humps" that gave the "Almond Joy" nickname housed the fans that ventilated the cars. Remember riding them inbound from either 69th Street or Bridge Street in the middle of August, with every end door window open and that racket from the motors, the el structure, the rails permeating everything.
Aside from that, by the end of their time they were run to pieces, been though 2 sets of deferred maintenance followed by a GOH that only did half the fleet and generally suffered from SEPTA's usual financial drought.
Given that, they gave almost 40 years of service, proving the dependability of Budd's shot-welding and tried and true PCC technology. Their sucessors won't see 30.
Then again there were the original Market cars from l907 thru a few years later which ran until 1960. They were great..not much for speed but livelier than the 1922 Frankford cars which were much heavier.
I have some good fortunes from being older..and riding the pioneer electric trains of many roads is one [but don't think I don't wish I were younger]
The original Market st. cars looked like a cross between the IRT Gibbs and the Manhattan el. Any Philly folks here remember them?
Are there any pictures of these trains? I would love to see them.
My best suggestion is try to find a copy of the Road From Upper Darby by Dr. Harold Cox...goes back some 30? years. Not a very big book, soft cover, was reasonable once. Construction, cars, and a side trip to related lines. If you can't find one send me an e-mail, I can either copy mine or the car photos at least, or have prints or copy slides made of my slides.
While browsing through this website, I came across a photo of a consist of former CTA 6000-series railcars (the so-called "Spam Cans" based on the PCC design) in SEPTA livery in Philly. A couple questions come to mind:
When were these cars sent to Philly and how long were they in service?
Which line did they run on? I'd guess the BSS since the MFL is a non-standard guage, which makes me wonder what, if any, modifications needed to be made to the cars before they could be run on Philly's system. And since the Broad Street Subway was supposedly built to BMT standards, wouldn't it be concievable that CTA trains could also run on the NYCTA's B-Division routes? Actually, I belive CTA cars are slightly smaller than IRT dimensions as well, so I suppose there's no reason they couldn't also run on A-Division.
Now THAT would be an interesting sight... Almost as interesting as seeing a train of Redbirds crossing over the Wells Street Bridge. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
SEPTA bought 4 sets 0f 6000's from CTA for use on the P&W (Norristown Line). 1 set was never used, 2 got the SEPTA paint scheme, and 1 remained in CTA colors, with the 6000 numbers still in the standee windows, with the SEPTA number on the car sides. The cars were run as two-man, with the conductor (and fareboxes) on each car, at the blind end. A seat was removed next to the doors at the blind end. The Conductor had to go between the cars to collect all the fares. The line collects fares outbound from 69th Street, and inbound towards 69th Street. It wasn't totaly easy to operate, but SEPTA was desparate for equipment for the P&W. The Bullets were dying, the 60's were almost gone, and the N5's were nowhere in sight. And SEPTA had passengers to move.
I was one of the passengers SEPTA was moving with the 6000's. My impression at the time (I was not a serious railfan yet) was that they were in deplorable condition and seemed to be in worse shape than the much older Brill bullets. They were colder, too, in the winter, with wind blowing through openings in the cars. I much preferred the Strafford 160's and bullet 200's.
They were not in the best of shape sice they came from the retired cars that CTA was selling off. They were all 6000's from the 1950 batch, and CTA had pretty much beaten them to death. SEPTA got them cheap, and since they were all-electric PCC rapid transit cars, Woodland Shop could handle them. They got them because the Bullets and 60's were collapsing at a rapid (no pun) rate. Before the 6000's showed up around 35 to 40% of the rush hour trips were getting cancelled due to lack of cars.
You remember when it really got desparate - when several Almond Joy singles were transferred to the P&W, equipped with trucks salvaged from the PATH "K" cars, and ran until the N5's finally showed up in enough numbers. They ran them to death. They were so beaten up that the El didn't want them back - even though they were beginning to have a car shortage themselves.
On the issue of fare collection, my recollection was that the farebox was placed next to the second door of the first car in each set and everyone had to pay there (exiting outbound and entering inbound). The result was slow loading or unloading. I don't recall the conductor walking through the cars collecting fares.
This was most awkward on the AJ's when the farebox was placed next to the center door. The conductor's position required the removal of the adjacent longitudinal seat.
I meant to say weren't. Sometimes I type too fast and i need to catch my grammatical errors.
Yes, or the grammar police from Royal Island will be after you.
Nah, keep the seats as the Budd ones were, that is one of the only things I miss about them.
Also, the CCTV was a good move. If the Almond Joys were rebuilt, they should have CCTV, CBTC capabilities, and any adjustments that would get rid of the loud noises that they made, and railfan windows like the M-4s have. Also, redo the flooring. Now, wait, these cars are starting to sound exactly like the M-4s.
Saw a curious change on the PATH service map in some of the new (three doors; not to be confused with the group that sings "Kryptonite") cars. It indicates a basic 6AM to midnight four route operation, with two trains the rest of the time. This can be translated two ways: they're reinstating the round robin 9AM-7:30PM weekends and holidays, or it will be limited to the six least patronized hours seven days a week. If anyone spots it can they give their interpretation? I'd hate to think they're cutting back service when they're contemplating doubling the fare.
According to the November 2000 brochure:
33rd St - Hoboken runs 7 days per week/24 hours
33rd St - Journal Square runs weekday and weekend days 7 days, round-robin late eve-overnight
Journal Square-WTC runs 24/7
WTC-Newark runs24/7
Hoboken-WTC runs days and rush 7 days; late evenings and overnight no direct service; change trains at Grove St.
Those "new" cars (the PA-4's) date from 1988. It's possible there is an old map in one (or more) of them. Did you get the car number, by any chance? The PATH web site doesn't make any mention of this change, and it would generate a huge outcry if it happened.
Huh? They've been running all four routes 9AM-7:30PM on weekends for a while now. We always seem to miss the cut-off on Sat. and Sun. evenings when we come back from the city and have to travel through Hoboken to get to Grove St. or wait longer at the WTC to get to Exchange Place because there is only the Newark route running from there.
Hi, I'm still looking for a photo of the old Canal St. Station signs
that had a single line of Chinese characters under the English.
Can anyone help me on this one?
Can't say I have a picture...but if one were available in the flesh I'd love to buy it.
You can see one in Woody Allen's 'Manhattan Murder Mystery' hanging on the bedroom wall. At least that's what I *think* you're referring to...
Can any fellow ST'er toss out the 411
about the store that reportedly sells
NYC Transit Memorabilia and Station Signs?
It was mentioned in a previous '2000' post
as being in the vicinity of Houston/Canal?
I, as well as the 'grrl, would benefit.
There's a junk shop at Houston St & Bowery (northwest corner, look for the 3.0 gpf toilets on the sidewalk) that usually has a good selection of subway signs. I know I saw one of the large "Canal St" signs with Chinese letters to the right, but that was a while ago. I also knew someone who swiped one and had it on his bedroom wall :).
Wow! I'd love to get a picture of that sign. I need it for a project I'm working on. Meanwhile, I'll check out the shop you
mention. Someone told me they may have tiled over them when they
re-did the station.
its on Houston just west of the Bowery. its an outdoor lot lots of wild stuff besides all kinds of subways signs..
I was just there an hour ago, they have quite a few subway signs, some VERY large ones. The big ones are $200, the small ones $100.
Marc
has anyone seen a figure on how much energy is saved on a "regenerative braking" system which pumps energy back into the 3rd rail when stopping... as much as i am not fond of the new cars, i do like this feature... it seems like a positive energy saving system...
In 1992, the TA published a small book about the R-110s an the prospects of the new tech trains for the future In the book, the original estimates were that the fleet would return up to 25% of the energy used. Personally, I hope so but I also have some doubts. That sounds a little over-optimistic.
Are you sure you read that exactly that way? Is the TA referring, perhaps, in part, to running a train in an A-B-B-B-A configuration (or multiples thereof) where the "B" cars feature only one motorized truck? Clearly, such a train (the R-142, correct?) would draw less power.
No, I think I read it clearly enough. They projected that the train would return up to 25% of the energy used.
does it seem like the technology will require a lot of maintenance, or is it basically simple stuff?
and a second question... energy transmission has always struck me as a strange world... i recall that energy cannot be stored in a transmission line, or something like that... suppose a new car is braking, and returning energy to the 3rd rail, but there are no other trains in that same section of the track, does that create a problem?
the unused current will backfeed all the way thru transformers, entering the power company's lines at primary voltage. Energy returned in this manner actually causes the watthour meters to run backward, therefore MTA "sells" the power to the power company. this process is relatively common in industry. It is known as Cogeneration.
the unused current will backfeed all the way thru transformers, entering the power company's lines at primary voltage. Energy returned in this manner actually causes the watthour meters to run backward, therefore MTA "sells" the power to the power company.
Depends on how the circuits are set up. Someone else has indicated that this is blocked on the TA setup, and that the new cars have dynamics installed that are capable of handling the entire regen load in the event that there isn't another train in the same segment to use the juice.
Do we have any experts out there that can give us a definitive answer?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why would the MTA have the cogen. arrangement blocked? Is Edison not set up for it; is there a rule against it?
From what I read some time ago on this board, this limitation is a by-product of the technology used by the TA power supply system, which pre-dates dynamic brakes, not an intended purpose.
I've put up an explanation a few posts down further in this thread, but I neglected to mention that the MTA would have to install some large and very expensive power handling equipment in their substations in addition to what is already there in order to pass the unused electricity back from 600 VDC third rail to 60 cycle AC used in the north American electrical distribution grids. All subway cars with regenerative braking are equipped with resistances that can handle some or all of the current generated if there is nothing else on the same third rail circuit to use it, since it would be too expensive and impractical to retrofit all subway system substations with the required inverter circuits to allow back feeding to the power company's lines. This setup essentially turns the regenerative braking circuit into a dynamic braking circuit where the electrical current is dissipated as heat.
-Robert King
Do we have any experts out there that can give us a definitive answer?
The 600V power is transformed at each substation from the
distribution voltage, which is typically 10-25 kV. Each substation
may contain multiple converters, or "phases" (but it's all DC).
Each "phase" in turn has multiple circuit breaker-protected
sections. Regenerated power can travel within a phase, but it
can not cross a phase boundary and certainly can not back feed
into the AC side or back to the power company!
Regen as used on the R110/142 cars employs a dead rail detector
which tests whether the rail is disconnected. I'm not certain
of the exact mechanism but I believe the regen voltage is
periodically cut off to test if voltage is being supplied by
the substation. If not, the assumption is that power has been
shut off for emergency reasons and the regen is halted.
There is also circuitry to monitor the "receptiveness" of the
rail to the regen power, i.e. to see if there is a load that can
accept the amperage being offered. If any of these conditions fail,
regen is turned off and the power is instead dumped across a bank
of grid resistors.
Hmmm, I wonder if the the scenario of multiple R142 trains in
the same section trying to regen has been fully tested?
The figure of 25% return will of course vary wildly based on
statistical field conditions. After these cars have been in
service for a while, it should be possible to extract reliable
figures from the on-board computers.
thanks jeff... you answered a question i thought of about feeding current into a dead 3rd rail...
how about this question... can some of the regenerated current feed the same train's lighting and heating requirements?... if there is not a need for all of the regenerated current, can some of it that is needed go into the rail while the unused part goes into the train's resistor grids?
heypaul:
I'm sure that some of the regenerated current can be used for the trains' lighting, heating and air conditioning systems if it was set up that way.
BMTJeff
The answer here is that power will only re-enter the Third Rail if there is another train moving that can use it. How close does that train need to be to use regenerated power? If the third rail is connected down an entire length of track, I'd imagine that late night service would be the only time the power could not be used.
One thing for certain -- the timing for putting energy saving equipment in service could not be better.
one of the major improvements will be the end of the blast of hot air as a train arrives in a station. And this in turn will dampen the AC load on the system. In turn whether winter heat or summer AC, even a slowing train continues to draw power.
Also, I'd assume the AC traction motor inverters are somewhat more efficient than the traditional camshaft and resistance controller now used. Anyone know for sure?
Yes.
All solid state propulsion electronics (this includes the DC to DC chopper control as well as the AC inverter systems), are more efficient than the earlier resistance based controllers.
-Robert King
The other fringe benefit with the R-142s propulsion system is according to David Vartanoff is that there will no longer be a blast of hot air as the train enters the station. I've been in the subways on occasion during the summer and it can get quite hot down underground. At least there will be a little relief from hot subway tunnels during the summer. I also like the savings of energy that will result with the new cars. It couldn't have come at a better time when energy costs are rising. Finally the T/A has energy efficient subway cars.
BMTJeff
We had a long thread analyzing heat sources about a year ago.
I don't think the heat rising from the grid resistance is the
major contributor to hot platforms in the summer. Most of the
heat is generated by the A/C on the cars. Regen will help, but
just a little.
Will also be interesting to see what effect moving the condenser
to the roof on the 142s will have in the tunnels.
>>don't think the heat rising from the grid resistance is
the
major contributor to hot platforms in the summer. Most
of the <<
my anectdotal memory from the late 60's is exactly that blast of heat as the trains entered the stations. This was pre AC on all but the R-40's. My hope is that the new system will cut the koad on the AC by cutting the resistor grid output. In turn this should lower the heat being dumped by the AC. (Note I am NOT an engineer--merely an ekectrician who is interested in energy efficiency)
How can you convert the DC back into AC through ordinary rectifiers?
You can't, and that's the end of it.
Additional equipment basically comprising of a large capacity inverter that can synchronise to the power company's AC line frequency would have to be installed and configured only to operate when there is a surplus of current in the third rail produced from regenerative braking, otherwise a vicious circle loop would ensue where the rectifiers send electricity into the third rail where it would promptly leave through the inverter to be returned to the powerlines.
-Robert King
But there is such a system: Amtrak's ACELA uses a computer to convert AC to DC, then back to three-phase AC for the motors. If a computer on a locomotive do this, why not a computer at a power substation?
roninbayside said:
"Amtrak's ACELA uses a computer to convert AC to DC, then back to three-phase AC for the motors. If a computer on a locomotive do this, why not a computer at a power substation? "
my guess is that the computer aboard the acela merely monitors the situation and controls other devices aboard the locomotive that do the actual heavyweight conversions of ac-->dc---> ac... i would be really surprised if the those conversions actually occurred within a computer...
"Amtrak's ACELA uses a computer to convert AC to DC,"
Correct me if I'm wrong but I've yet to see a computer that will convert AC to DC. Usually we use a device called a rectifier. Rectifiers are cheaper and far more efficient. Why use a computer?
The information I collected was a long article published within the last year about the use of AC locomotives. The article, which I am trying to locate again (I originally downloaded it as a PDF file), stated that Amtrak's ACELA collects AC from the catenary, converts it to DC, then a computer system recreates three-phase AC for delivery to the motors. Now, I am not an electrical engineer, but I read that this method was a way of getting around the limitations of using AC in a locomotive without converting to DC first (a straight AC motor being inefficient and impractical).
I will try to look up the URL again. It may have been a link off of Bombardier's website...
That's essentially correct. The 25kV from the single-phase
catenary is transformed down to a lower voltage, rectified
and filtered to produce DC, which is then converted to 3-phase,
variable-frequency, variable-phase AC. I wouldn't describe
it as a computer, which conjures images of Pentium processors
and microsfot bluescreens. It's more like an embedded controller/
signal processor.
So, my next question is, can or should you do that on a very large scale (larger than an individual motor or train)?
Do what, specifically?
Apply the concept to a power substation (see posting 183576)??
Um. no, it's just like Robert King explained. You would basically
have to replace the entire substation with very, very expensive
equipment to make it a co-gen facility able to sync up to
the power grid. Overall it doesn't make sense because the energy
flow pattern in the substation is basically away from the grid
and into the third rail, except perhaps during midnight hours
when it will be one way for 30 seconds and the reverse for the
next 30.
The problem is that the tasks are different. Power in the loco moves in only one direction, through 2 stages, each stage using equipment designed to convert the power in a particular way, while the substation would have to allow power to flow in either direction.
Sounds like a first cousin to a short circuit.
the unused current will backfeed all the way thru transformers, entering the power company's lines at primary voltage.
Considering that the third rail system is DC, the returned power would have a hard time trying to "backfeed all the way thru transformers". At what point is AC from the power grid converted to DC for the third rail? The equipment used is not likely to be capable of running in reverse to produce AC on the supply side.
If power returned by regenerative braking must be used at that moment by another train, the 25% savings figure is pretty good. Which leads to the question: could further energy savings be achieved by installing storage batteries (or some other technology) in the substations that could absorb returned power that isn't needed at that moment? Surely this will not be cost efficient until a large proportion of all trains in service use regeneration, but would it then be? That is something that should be studied (if it hasn't yet been).
It was common in the first few decades of electric traction
to have HUGE storage battery plants adjunct to a substation,
mostly to handle peak loads (not much regen happening in 1895).
The cost of maintaining the battery plant usually outweighs
the energy savings recovery, unfortunately. There have been
some attempts to store the energy locally on the train either
through batteries, fuel cells or flywheels.
One basic rule of physics is that there are no free lunches. If two trains that weigh the same travel on level, straight tracks at the same constant speed, using car bodies with the same aerodynamic drag, won't each require the same amount of energy to accelerate and to overcome losses due to friction? Perhaps using fewer, larger motors would be slightly more efficient; but I can't imagine saving 25% even if they used one motorized car and 9 trailers.
ken... i think that the energy that will be saved with the new cars will be recovered energy... it's not that the motors operate more efficiently, it's more that the energy of motion instead of being turned into heat by the brakes or the resistor grids, will be turned back into electrical energy which will be fed into the 3rd rail...
Thanks. I knew that, but I was responding to someone who thought you could save power by having fewer motors. See post 183531.
25% seems about right to me for a modern subway train with contemporary AC propulsion electronics. The exagerated claims for regenerative braking returns probably are the 30% and 1/3 (33.3%) that are noted in the literature for H5 subway cars and CLRV streetcars, respectively. Now whether there is something in that section of 3rd rail circuit that can take advantage of the returned current and use it is another matter, because if there isn't the regenerative braking sends the current through a resistance grid the old fashioned way...
-Robert King
The unused current will backfeed all the way to the power company's lines
I don't think so.
The subway runs on direct current supplied to the third rail from substations where the power company's alternating current is rectified so that it becomes direct current. I do not know of any substations on a DC powered transporation system which can take a surplus of direct current existing in the third rail or streetcar wire and convert it back into alternating current in synchronization with the power company's AC line frequency to allow back feeding. Rectification of AC to DC at the present time is typically done with large diodes of several types or mercury arc rectifier tubes which electricity to flow in one direction only. This electrical/electronic characteristic of the equipment used in itself forbids back feeding to the power company's lines.
-Robert King
Sounds like you would need to install a DC motor at each substation and use it to power a shaft to drive an AC generator and hook the generator output into the grid. Perhaps there is a more modern set up that could produce the same result. The then is cost vs. benefit.
It is nice to know that i read it correctly.
25% is a lot of saved energy. How much does power cost the TA per year? With that kind of savings, the 142s can pay for themselves. I read here that the next TA car order (after the 143s) is supposed to be designed for maximum effiecency, maybe the money saved on energy can be used for building 2 Ave. (Yeah, right :))
>>>maybe the money saved on energy can be used for building 2 Ave. (Yeah, right :))
Well, we can dream! :)
-cordially
turnstiles
1. what does the large glass or plastic enclosed box on the left side of the car above the driver's position do?
2. what are the other readings on the roll signs on the pcc's?
3. what is the source of the heat in the cars, especially in the rear seats?
1. what does the large glass or plastic enclosed box on the left side of the car above the driver's position do? It's a fare register, left over from Public Service days.
2. what are the other readings on the roll signs on the pcc's? SPECIAL and blank. AFAIK
3. what is the source of the heat in the cars, especially in the rear seats? Waste heat from the dynamic brake. The motors and control equipment turn the dynamic brake current into waste heat, which is disposed with into the heating ducts in the carbody.
Point number 3 concerning the heating is correct, but it is only covers one half of where the waste heat comes from. The heat from the resistances which are used during the PCC's acceleration to control current flow to the traction motors is also fed through the same ducts along the bottom of the walls on the inside of the car body. Those ducts are what ensures the heat is distributed reasonably evenly throughout the streetcar. The driver's area would be the exception since it is only heated from electric heaters mounted on the floor by the pedals and are controlled separately from the other heating system.
There are quite a few PCC pictures on my website at http://members.nbci.com/wobit
-Robert King
P.S. Aren't PCCs wonderful things?
You forgot to mention that PCC's have dampers that divert the airflow to either the carbody or the street. The dampers are air actuated, and there is one on the trolley shroud that can be opened to bring fresh air into the carbody.
PCC's in northern cities usually were equipped with "acceleration heaters", which were standard car heaters mounted in the controller cabinet. They could be turned on (usually by the operator, sometimes by thermostat) for very low temperatures or long runs with little braking.
A real oddity among PCC's were the cars built for San Diego, which had no dampers and no heating ducts - all the waste heat went straight to the street. In San Diego it never gets cold enough to use heaters. It was funny that the only resale of the cars was to El Paso, which has basically the same climate.
LA and SF get cold enough to need heat, so they both got standard PCC heat schemes.
The ex-SDERy PCC's that ended up in El Paso ended up getting longitudinal electric heaters under the seats.
The dampers on air PCCs are moved pnumatically (by air).
The dampers on all electric moved by a small electric motor powered by the 37.5 volt electrical system (all electric PCCs do not have an air system).
The damper is basically used to effectively turn the heat on or off, off being when the heat generated by the resistances restricting the flow of electricity to and from the traction motors while the acceleration or dynamic braking is engaged is forced out the bottom of the PCC without travelling through the body.
-Robert King
I've always heard the heaters in question called "Auxillary
Heaters", not "acceleration heaters". Is that a Baltimore
term? On Brooklyn cars a switch on the gang switch panel
activates a contactor in the control package which applies
600 to a bunch of heaters sitting in the air duct.
Let's put it this way: the President's Conference Committee set out to find a way to build a better streetcar. They accomplished that and then some. In a way, it's too bad Denver never had any PCCs. There was an idea tossed around to use secondhand PCCs on the proposed West Corridor light rail line, a la San Francisco's F line.
But Colorado Springs, the city closest to Denver in the country (although not closest in the state) has PCC's. I don't know how many they have, but they were sold to them from SEPTA, so the state of Colorado did not escape being PCC-free.
I didn't know that.
1. what does the large glass or plastic enclosed box on the left side of the car above the driver's position do?
It's a fare register, left over from Public Service days.
dan: this box looks much more modern... do you mean the box where the driver pulled a chain and a bell rang and a number advanced on a counter?... the box i am referring to looks like it has some relays inside... it is definitely not a pull chain counting kind of box...
It used to be a fare register, but was replaced with the clear box with electrical stuff in it over the last year or so.
I remember when the fare boxes were still there, motormen used to ring the bell on that even though it served no purpose!
Could it have something to do with the retrofitting of the pantograph?
On SEPTA's PCC's, that compartment above the driver's seat, that is made of steel, and it is nothing more than a glove compartment. As for your next question, I have no answer. For your third question, since Philly, and I assume New Jersey is in The Northeast, PCC's built for those areas and other colder climates used resistor heat, which was generated (no pun intended) from the motors when braking, and was ducted into the carbody on the lft and right sides under the seat mountings on the wall.
Was there any reason that the R was running shuttle on Saturday? And with the wait I had at 59th St I think they were running 1 shuttle, maybe 2 but the wait was atleast 20 mins between each one.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" As people asked me how to get to Bay Ridge instead of the slow R shuttle
Track work in Queens I believe, didn't want it running all the way out there to 71st. F/E ran local Queens Blvd Queens Bound all the way. Local to Roosevelt then Express Queens Plaza city bound.
Do all the front bullet signs have all the letters and numbers or is it divided by the 2 divisions A and B. I would assume A and B since the 2 are different sizes and no one would never be able to run on both divisions. Secondly I believe it was at Cortlandt St. (N/R) I saw a slant R-40 "N" I believe it was and in the middle it had a "K" sign in dark blue. 2 Questions 1. Where did the "K" run and what years? and 2. How could that bullet sign still read "K" has it been that long?
Thanks
Mike "Mr Mass Transit" I can't think of a One-Liner
The sign probably got stuck on K while it was being scrolled. The K replaced the AA when double letters were eliminated. It ran from 168st to the World Trade Center until December 11, 1988.
I though the K ran from Jamaica to 168 St. -- or was that the KK?
I think the original "KK" line, which ran during the late 1960's and early 1970's, went down Sixth Ave. I'm not sure where the northern terminal was, but (reading southbound) it cut off on the Chrystie St Connection then went over the Williamsburg Bridge (a connection that hasn't been used for a quarter of a century now.) Then it followed Brooklyn's Broadway Elevated (today's J/Z) until Broadway Junction, wherupon it turned onto the Canrsie Line (another now-unused connection) and terminated at Rockaway Parkway.
In the 1980's the letter K was used again in a completely different service. It was an Eighth Ave local (replacing the AA) which ran from 168th St to World Trade Center.
:-) Andrew
Northern terminal was 57/6th. A few years before it was eliminated they shortened it to Eastern Pkwy.
I'm pretty sure the signs are by division. IRT cars only have the numbers plus the letter "s", while the IND/BMT cars only have the letters.
:) Andrew
SubTalk's own R36 #9346 has recreated R17/21/22/26/28/29/33/36, R42/44/46, and R62 rollsign readings at his Transfer Point page.
Thanks for the free plug!
I followed, with some concern, several examples of back and forth postings among Subtalkers which deviated from this board's purpose and which ended up in personal attacks.
I would like to share with you how I look at you, not because I'm any better than anyone else here (I have many shortcomings), but in hope of triggering a little perspective...
I don't know most of you personally (I might have met a few on a trip to Staten Island's North Shore line once). I don't know what most of you do professionally, though some of you post conversations or have email addresses (or sendme email) where I can guess a few things.
I do not check up on who is posting under the same handle in other chat sites, and I'm not sure it would be any of my business, anyway.
You, in turn, don't know me all that well. I've mentioned my profession in one or two posts, but that's it. You don't know whether I'm rich or poor, black or white, have served time at Riker's Island, or believe in the supernatural. The topics we discuss just don't lend themselves to a broad understanding of each other. My participation in this site has enriched my knowledge of a particular aspect of the world, and given me breadth of knowledge.
Let me try to illustrate what I'm saying with an example: Suppose this site were about civil engineering. Yasir Arafat, head of the Palestinian Authority, who evokes tremendous emotions among different people (both positive and negative) could post to such a site, and would come across as an exceptionally knowledgable, politically and organizationally savvy chief engineer (which is exactly what he was before he took over a major guerilla and political movement- he helped build a lot of infrastructure in Saudi Arabia). But all the other things he's done - good, bad, ugly, heinous, whatever, would not normally show up here. And if it didn't, what participants would get is the benefit of technical discourse with an experienced engineering authority.
If someone in whose discussion I am participating begins to post offensively, I will generally seek to withdraw from the thread if one or two posts requesting civility are not acknowledged (I'm not perfect, so I may even have violated that in the past). But I'll do it passively. A bully whose posts are not acknowledged will ultimately stop posting out of boredom.
Some of you may participate in the Klan, not want to pay income tax, espouse racism elsewhere, or believe in the tooth fairy, but I'm not going to worry about it unless it explicitly shows up here - and even then my response will be, after a short while, passive - I'll let that person have the last word, and move on.
On the other hand, if you boast here, credibly, that you committed a felony or hurt someone, it would not be wrong for any of us to help the authorities track you down.
I guess what I'm getting at is, for the sake of this board, I'm not going to worry about what anybody does or says elsewhere. If you hate Jews or Muslims, or whatever, your loss - but if you're here to discuss trains, I'll welcome the discussion.
I apologize if this comes across as a rant...
A MEN
Well put Ron.
More of our fellow SubTalkers should read this posting.
BMTman
I am honored. I expect you to hold me to it - if I slip (I'm human), I hope you'll gently but firmly pull me back to the right path.
...And on the eighth day, David Pirmann created
the killfile.. a craft which has consumed more male names
than my ex of 7 years--yet miraculously "filtered"
and "greatly trimmed" my SubTALK readings in favor of
"transit-only gospel".....and for that, I rave 2 Dave.
i agree totally with your post.........thanks!
Ron, Thoughtful remarks that I totally agree with.
This site should be F-U-N and educational, if not that, you don't belong. I mean a little HPS is just fine with me, but personal attacks or off-topic rants have no place here and just take up space.
A customer or employee may want to get something off their chest once in a while, but if that person is always sour grapes ... again I say go away ... I'm thinking of one or two posters in particular.
Now THAT poster may answer ... why should I go away ... well you're not having fun, aren't educating us on any aspect of our hobby and are boring us to death.
This is totally different from a good debate, again I'm thinking of a few SubTalkers who enguage in thoughtful exchanges of view points ... Larry, Peter, Ron, Jeff, Train Dude, and heypaul ... oh yes if you read between the lines even heypaul can realy get you thinking about a topic.
Mr t__:^)
According to KYW 1060 NEWS Radio:
Ridership on the Atlantic City Line is down for the last several years. But expect it to go up given the new hotel and casino construction.
Compare that to the dismantlement (is that a word?) of one of two tracks into the station for the Brigantine Connector highway.
Do commuters to Philadelphia use this line much, or is it mostly to get gamblers to A.C.?
Mostly casino and hotel employees.
It seems to me that a direct line to AC from NYC, without having to go through Philadelphia, would get a lot of riders. Does any such trackage or ROW exist?
Doubt it. It's more than 120 driving miles from NYC to A/C; too far for a daily commute. And the buses have the gambler market tied up. Do you really think the train is going to be handing out discount vouchers and rolls of quarters as people get off? Will the train make a rest stop on the parkway and show entertainment "in-flight" on televisions? Doubtful.
Part of the justification for NJT's line was as an employment importer for the casinos. The casinos do not want to hire locally because their management believes, rightly or wrongly, justly or unjustly, that too many of the locals would fail drug tests, a no-no for places where most employees would be handling a fair amount of money and would have to be bonded and insured.
[The casinos do not want to hire locally because their management believes, rightly or wrongly, justly or unjustly, that too many of the locals would fail drug tests, ]
Hmm, kind of hard to believe, sounds like an urban myth to me. Anyhow it's difficult to belive it could be enforced inLas Vegas :-)
Arti
The casinos are recruiting relatively far from A.C. This is because all of the available talent in A.C. is already gainfully employed.
Considering what Atlantic City looks like beyond the casino and hotel strip, there are multiple generations of local residents whose futures are bleak because no one considers them "talent."
Considering that the cassinos take that attitude, I don't suppose one could argue that they were ever any good for Atlantic City and its residents. Wasn't the whole idea to create jobs?
That's something we'd better consider long and hard before we ever think of allowing gambling here in New York.
Andrew
>>>That's something we'd better consider long and hard before we ever think of allowing gambling here in New York. <<<
C'mon. Gambling's been allowed in New York since long before Trump put up his first Boardwalk highrise. I'm sure you've seen the Casino. It's that big building on Wall Street.
[The casinos do not want to hire locally because their management believes...that the locals would fail drug tests.....]
Atlantic City politicians have complained from the beginning that locals have been red-lined merely for being locals (interpret that as you will), and that no resident of AC has even scrubbed a toilet in any casino - this after developers promised to revitalize the city AND got huge state subsidies to do so.
Yes, there is an almost direct route to AC via the old CNJ Southern Division running from Red Bank through Freehold, Lakehurst, Charsworth and Winslow Jct. As I have said before most of the line from Lakehurst to Winslow Jct. is out in the middle of nowhere with few heavily patronized grade crossings. It is very flat and runs straight. It could easily be upgraded for 100-110 mph running. These trains could then run express at 85-90 on the AC line into AC from Winslow Jct.
Mike, I have read on another board that part of that line, a piece between Lakehurst and Winslow Jct., IIRC, is privately owned by some industrial concern. Have you heard anything like this?
Yes, there was a sandpit near Rt. 72 that used the line to haul its sand out. They don't use it any more and the pit might be OoB. On one of my mpas that line is marked "Clayton Sand".
That's one less obstacle than I thought.
The closest we ever had is the CNJ route that the Blue Comet used: Ferry to Jersey City, CNJ Seashore Line from Elizabethport, CNJ Southern Division south of Redbank onto the AC ROW at Winslow Junction.That last ran around sixty years ago. The ROW now ends near the Pine Barrens and no longer connects to Winslow Junction.
The track is all there. They have paved the grade crossings in a few locations (Rt 206 and Chatsworth).
If no one minds going through PA the train could go down the NEC to Philly. Of course, then NJT would be in direct competition with the company that owns the tracks for NY-Philly service.
That's the route that AmTrak used: NY to North Philadelphia and then reverse to AC. It took too long and went too far to be competitive with the buses.
It appears as if Corona yard is confused with the Main line R36 cars being Westinhouse and NOT GE. Today, I saw this consist arriving at Main St: 9604 9605 9313 9683 9682 9594 9595 9552 9553 9598 9599. I have yet to see which GE consist 9554 and 9555 are riding with. I saw another GE consist with a main line pair 9557 and 9556 wiith R 33s 9327 on the point. How ever those 3 cars hopefully went to Westinghouse consist. Also 9550 and 9551 are beginning to show signs of dead motors. (you know what that means) I hope 9540 and 9541 are ok. Does anyone know what happened to this pair?
Does anyone know which lines the double-deck cars run on? Any shot of seeing one on the Rockaway line anytime soon?
Probably no since the double-deckers were obtained to replace the 45-50 y/o diesel coaches and the Far Rockaway Line is electrified.
They generally run on the diesel lines -- Oyster Bay, Port Jeff, Patchogue/Speonk/Montauk and Greenport.
I did catch one on the Babylon branch last week, but I suspect that it was only covering for regular MU cars which had been knocked out by the snow.
As far as seeing one on the Far Rock line, your chances are between slim and none. And Slim's in Texas. If you're just looking to ride one as part of your regular commute, you're probably better off catching one of the DM's between Jamaica and Penn.
CG
Or else you could take one from Jamaica to Hunterspoint Ave or Long Island City, then transfer to the 7.
:) Andrew
A number of tri-levels (yes, they have three levels if you include the door level) use the Babylon Line instead of using that single track between Bethpage & Babylon through Lindehurst. There is even one dual mode (from Patchogue) that stops at Freeport each morning.
Double Deckers or C3 the car designation are used on unelectrifed portions of the LIRR. Port Jeff, Greenpoint, Oyster Bay and Montauk are the only lines that will see them in normal opertion and at the end of those lines where there is no third rail (Oyster Bay has one station with 3rd Rail East Williston >G<).
You will see them at Jamica for the Montauk and Oyster Bay lines transfer or Hicksville for transfer to Port Jeff (every other train) running on Non-Dual Mode locos or you can see them on the few Dual Mode trains that go to Penn for the above lines.
Anything going into or out of Hunterspoint and LI City are bilevels except for the 5-something PM Ronkonkoma train.
I realize that the name of this station on the J was changed because the west end or 102nd St end was closed.
Does anyone have any knowledge of when this change took place?
It's unlikely that it occured at one time.
I'm sure that at some point the TA changed the name to 102nd-104th Streets and then eventually removed the 102 name.
The map no longer shows the Elderts Lane and Forest Parkway parts of the 75th and 85th Stations. Once the stations are renovated, then watch the signs remove references to those names too.
Chris R27-R30 would better know the answer to your question.
My map must be a little older than yours. It shows only 104th St. The same thing appears at Elderts Lane which is now called just 75th St. The real puzzle is Forest Parkway, it is still referred to as 85th St-Forest Parkway.
Is there any schedule as to how often new subway maps are issued?
About 3 times a year or when service changes take effect.
It would seem that I had better try to get a new map more than once every few years :-).
Only the maps refer to Elderts Lane as 75th St. only. Everyone else still uses the older name and all the signage says "Elderts Lane" only.
104th St. is the only "renamed" Jamaia el station to have it's old name completely erased.
Speaking of old names, isn't the use of the older "named" street signs completely obsolete for the Liberty Ave. el? Those streets were renamed to numbers way back in 1918 ...
Talking about Liberty Ave, how many years did the NYCTA call it Lefferts Ave when it had long since been changed to Lefferts Blvd!
Using 75 St. only doesn't make a lot of sesne since there actually is an Elderts Lane on the Brooklyn side of the border.
Anyone have any idea when this will be beginning?
Why are there no guardrails running alongside the tracks on the elevated portion of the Atlantic Avenue line?
Like a guard rail will stop an MU from coming off the elevated if it derails?
The walkway is in the center of the two tracks so no guard rail is needed on the outside since there is no walkway there (like TA Elevatedes)
Oh. Its looks pretty scary from the street level, though.
Yeah. It may be irrational. A guardrail may not be much help against an enourmous derailing commuter train. But it still makes me nervous looking at the LIRR from the street level on Atlantic Ave.
:-) Andrew
That was the first thing I noticed that last time I was in Chicago. After the railhead is the street below. It's bizare, but I guess I'm really used to seeing the guardrails on the MTA. It did feel somehow "unsafe" with out them. CTA also has the center walkway, right in between the uncovered(!) third rails.
Dave
Yeah. It may be irrational. A guardrail may not be much help against an enourmous derailing commuter train. But it still makes me nervous looking at the LIRR from the street level on Atlantic Ave.
Each track on the elevated portion has a "black rail," which is an extra rail between the two running rails. In theory, at least, a black rail is supposed to keep a derailing train upright and on the viaduct.
This is correct, a guard rail will not compensate for a major track defect.
On the old 5th Av El station at Atlantic & Flatbush, 1 or 2 cars actually fell to the street, accompanied by loss of life, about 1930 or so. I think I saw a photo of something similar that occured in Manhattan too.
The one in Manhattan happened at 53rd & 9Av. The tower had a track switched to turn w/b on 53rd thinking a 6th Av El train was coming but a S/B 9th Av El train came full speed through the switch and derailed.
There was also a devastating derailment on the 9th Ave El about 1905. See it on this page:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/9thavel/9Ave.html
B Division trains are about 600 feet long. How long, typically (or as a maximum) are MetroNorth, LIRR, and NJT trains?
A 12 car train of LIRR M-1's would be 1020 feet @ 85 feet per car, or a little less than one-fifth of a mile.
From what I have observed, the LIRR normally operates 6, 8, 10 and 12 car trains (not counting the bilevels). They seem to be about equally divided in number, although some branches tend to have shorter trains (Hempstead and West Hempstead, for example), while others tend to have longer ones (Babylon, Huntington).
Chicago Metra diesel lines run trains of up to 11 85' cars (plus an F40PH locomotive), or close to 1000 ft. long. I believe that the 11 car limit is due to the HEP limit from the locomotive -- more cars than that wouldn't have enough power for heat/AC/lights.
On the line I ride (UP-West line, Ogilvie Transportation Center to Geneva), the longest trains are 9 cars, and the shortest are 4. Some stations have shorter platforms where not all of the cars can open. Also, at Ogivlie Transporation Center (formerly NorthWestern Station), not all of the tracks/platforms can accommodate longer trains. There are only two (of 16) which can accommodate 11 car trains, and 6 more which can accommodate 9. The rest are limted to shorter trains (as few as six cars on track 16).
-- Ed Sachs
NJT runs trains up to 12, 13, or 14 85' cars on the NEC (the Arrow MUs). The engine hauled trains can only pull up to 10 cars electric, 8 cars diesel. LIRR runs up to 8 cars in DM sets or 13 cars in non-DM sets with 2 engines (summer Cannonball).
Have any R26/R28 cars gone into semi-retirement yet? There are enough R142's on the road to retire some of the old rustbirds.
..how many fingers am I holding up?
can't retire redbirds if you've only
got a few r142s ratting about..
As much as I enjoy knowing the relics are still there when their high tech flops can't make the grade I'll have to say why can't they stick to something that's basic and will do the job?
In some ways I wish the same had happened in the 50's so my beloved old IRT fleet wouldn"t have been wiped out so fast. But when economics are involved [even a publically-operated RR can only waste so much] why do they insist on going thru with an entire fleet when the earlier trials weren't the happiest situation?
Ed, I agree with you completely. For example, you rarely see any Redbird consist with a dead motor, yet I see R62 consists with a least one dead motor guard light illuminated. As far as the rolling soda cans go, we'll see how their sensitive systems stand up to the everyday use of the system after a year or two. Unfortunately, the Redbirds will be gone by then. Remember the R46 trucks?
Marc
I remember them. Designed by Rockwell, with the hope of adapting aerospace technology to mass transit (Boeing-Vertol took a shot at some projects too), the intention was good but the technology didn't hold up to the pounding the cars took, so conventional trucks were substituted.
But instead of smickering, let's remember that these experiments were worthwhile (though not enough testing was done). New technologies for carrying passengers efficiently and giving them better information should be nurtured.
I had the pleasure of riding the new Bombardier subway cars on the MBTA's Red Line. There were occasional snags, like the wrong station announcements, but on the whole it was a good experience. I'd like to see that happen in NY.
I think it's a shame that with the new technology the character that the trains had (what made us railfans) will be gone. The new stuff is too antiseptic, plus there's no front window! How many railfans started out as wide-eyed kids staring out the front window of a speeding, clickity-clackity express train? It'll all be gone soon.
You can still advocate for a front window!
Even operating the train is a joke...
It doesn't have the right 'feel' to it...
Like I said, a shame.
Marc
When the F-16 fighter was first designed, the control stick had "force sensors" and did not actually move. Thelack of stick movement was very foreign - "it didn't feel right." Pilots complained that they weren't getting any tactile feedback, so General Dynamics put in some artificial movement to the stick. In the end, though, pilots adjusted and eventually came to regard the airplane as the most capable they flew.
Are there good things the new train can do that the old ones won't? Is it possible that a little positive mental attitude from the motorman, along with constructive feedback to Bombardier and the TA, could bring eveybody to a reasonably happy medium?
Before I forget another note on this thread I too still like the railfan window.we all know part of the program is eventual all-OPTO, of course I HOPE NOT.When I was a kid I hated seeing Gibbs car on the point of a set of IRT High-V's although I liked those cars. The whole vestibule was shut off by doors on them. Before the R44 there was the multi [BMT] that was shut off on the head end...for OPTO and this was over 60 years ago.
I ran the redbirds and the usual gosh-awful mixes of postwar cars in the 70's and there were enough dead motors, dropping out, dead compressors, etc. They really let things go to h---then but thankfully the rebuilding made them a good car again. They were the best of the postwar IRT stock, the 26-36.
I remember the Rockwell truck debacle; unfortunately it had happened before..when the R10 were new, likewise the trucks on the beloved R1-9 were not very durable either. My shop supervisor friend called them the worst truck in the history of railroading..but there were many others elsewhere. Then there were all the built in engineering flaws on the R44 [among other all-new cars of that period on other systems].Again going back to reinventing the wheel!
If I ever get back to NY City again maybe I can have the good fortune of riding a redbird with you before it's over; too bad I can't run one once more but that's out [rules, etc]. Motorman big ed l967-77.
Hey Ed,
Believe it or not, those times back in the '70s/early '80s were interesting-at least I think they were. The system is 'boring' now compared to back then. You mentioned the mixed consists, for one, that was always fun to see all the different combinations of cars. Running them, was of course, a different story. But on the other hand, you got some education as a Motorman-troubleshooting, isolating cars, stuck brakes, all the types of problems that today's 'Train Operator' has to call all kinds of supervision and bosses to deal with. Heck, just working the yard making up trains was an adventure! Glad you're on this board Ed. I always read your posts and enjoy your comments/rememberances. Keep in mind that the Branford Museum in CT has redbird 6688 in its collection. I'm sure they'll give you a turn at the handles. Do you still have your brake handle?
Regards,
Marc
Heck, Big Ed would feel right at home running R-9 1689, too!
I had to of course return all TA issued tools when I quit so no more brake handle. If I ever got to Brnford I"d be a lot happier running the High V, Low V, or the R1-9 or BU. The SMEE's are just inci cdental to me! Unfortunately I was too late to qualify on the High-V's, the Low-V's I learned from work trains but they aren"t too different to handle than an ABor R1-9. I did run the museum set on a fantrip in the early 70's.
I'm sure compared to what I knew the system is boring now..the glory days to me were before I hired out though. My memories of the 50's are of so many different types of equipment except for the IND which was except for the R10 one type of car.I did have a chance to run the Q's for almost 2 years and did so off and on so guess that would qualify me on the BU's?
My dislike of the IRT SMEE mixes was that it was hard to make a smooth stop with the different dynamic brake fade out rates. Otherwise they were indeed interesting to watch and ride.
Drop me an e-mail sometime..if I ever get back to the city may get a chance to visit??
I'm back from my trip to Seattle. It's a great city and friendly people there. The views of the Cascades are amazing. Flying into SeaTac, we flew past Mt. St. Helens and circled Mt Rainier, both mountians are awe-inspiring. Anyway, Seattle has a very extensive bus system. The downtown tunnel is really cool. The stations are breath taking, absolutly works of art. It's a shame that the tunnel has such retarded hours- it closes at 7pm on weekdays and 6pm on Saturday, and not even open on Sunday. I never got to ride through the whole thing Since it was closed Sunday. Why such limited hours? I rode the Waterfront trolley which was alright. The monorail was awesome. It was a lot faster and quieter than I expected. If Seattle wants to expand it, more power to them, although I don't see how they would do it. The Space Needle wasn't as cool as I was expecting. And uglier, I thought it was silver, not painted white, great views, though. I must be spoiled because I've been to the CN Tower three times, and that's tall. I like the articulated buses, they have a lot of them. I'll post some more stuff if I can remember it.
Some others things to note:
Bus schedules and routes are easy to understand and buses are fairly frequently, Sunday service is good
The Metro tunnel looks like it will have a MUNI-type feel to it if and when light rail is built. All the lines might originate in the tunnel and spread out once it leaves it.
3rd Ave is sort of the Seattle equivilent to Market St. in San Fran, where all primary lines come together.
There are tracks already in place in the Metro tunnel, what are they for? I was hoping that they guide the buses thru the tunnel, but I couldn't see anything on the bus that would suggest that.
Mama's Mexican Resturant on 2nd Ave & Bell is GREAT. Ranks right up there with El Azteca here in Atlanta.
Traveling allows me to appriciate other cities' airports, my another interest of mine. I didn't get a chance to ride it, but there are three people movers at SeaTac. Anyone ever ride them?
Traveling also allows me to appriciate that Hartsfield International is the best airport in the world, and I've been to plenty of them. In two bathrooms I used at SeaTac, only one sink in the whole bathroom worked. Hartsfield is also a lot better looking.
I have to disagree with you on Hartsfield. I think it's a horrible airport. Granted, it is the busiest in the country, so I couldn't expect much better, but I will never again have a layover in Atlanta if I have a choice. I did see the CN tower two months ago, and it's definitely worth the flight to Toronto in itself. Too bad I'm scared shitless of heights. I couldn't step on the glass floor if my life depended on it.
Interesting... my wife and I were at the CN Tower this past August (had dinner in the 360 Restaurant - nice view, good but not great food, lousy service) and were duly unimpressed. Yes, there were some interesting views, but the view from Casa Loma (a mansion, later hotel, now museum) up on the hill was much better - and there's railroad action visible from there too, we saw several grain trains pass, one right after another, with a real mixed bag of power (new wide cabs mixed with older SW units on a couple of the trains, plus one train of all older power with an SW running cab-first in the lead).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
but the view from Casa Loma (a mansion, later hotel, now museum)
up on the hill was much better - and there's railroad action visible from there too, we saw several grain trains pass, one right after another, with a real mixed bag of power (new wide cabs mixed with older SW units on a couple of the trains, plus one train of all older power with an SW running cab-first in the lead).
That was my old stompin' grounds--the North Toronto subdivision of the CPR. I was a brakeman on the CP in the mid-90s and I must have run through there a zillion times. Surprised to see that much grain in August, though. It usually comes in after September.
CP always has different types of power, especially so along that sub...you'll see everything from 1200s, GP9s and SD40-2s all the way up to the big GEs from out west. A lot of rent-a-wrecks out there too .
I think all the old Alcos were finished by last year, however. They had a few 4-axle Alcos left when I finished up in '96, but they were few and far between.
Damn, I miss the CPR!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
I was there last June and was watching BlueJay batting practice from the glass floor.
I remember your posting about that... nothing spectacular going on underneath the glass when we were there. Mary was too chicken to walk on it; my irrational mind said "why not" so I did.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Atlanta's Hartsfield airport may have its problems, but it's one of the best there is for a subway fan. I always hope my flights get delayed there just so I have time to take a ride on the wonderful MARTA trains. Plus those same trains that run so conveniently to the airport let me check out more of the city itself. Just about anywhere else all I ever see of the city is its look-alike airport terminals.
By the same token, I can't wait until Salt Lake City builds its airport light rail line.
Mark Michalovic
Hartsfield is one of the most poorly-designed airports I've ever had the misfortune of flying through. (DFW is the only major airport I'd consider worse.) It astounds me that a liscensed architect with a masters degree got paid to design a major airport that has arriving and departing passengers (and hence, ticketing and baggage claim) sharing the same level and arranged in a way that passengers going in opposite directions must cross through each other's paths on the way to/from the concourses.
O'Hare, while no longer the "world's busiest" at the moment, is suberbly designed for passenger flow and includes two terminals that count as world-class architectural landmarks (the United terminal by Helmut Jahn and the International terminal by Ralph Johnson of Perkins & Will) in addition to the two original terminals by C.F. Murphy Associates and the world's largest parking garage. O'Hare also is also ideal for railfans; the CTA Blue Line has a beautiful subway terminal designed by Helmut Jahn directly under the airport itself, and there's a nifty people-mover that connects the terminals and parking areas. The "reincarnation tunnel" between Concourses B and C at the United terminal is another must-see. And don't forget that O'Hare features many authentic Chicago-based restuarants, a far cry from the typical bland airport food served by some concessionary company based in Wichita.
Hopefully it will only be a matter of time before O'Hare regains its rightful title as the world's busiest... Plans are underway for two additional new terminals, and suburban NIMBY idiots in DuPage County won't be able to stall construction of an additional runway forever.
Midway Airport, while a bit of a dump right now, is currently being completely rebuilt with the additon of a brand-new terminal and concourses, and will be a nice airport in its own right once construction is complete. And the Orange Line CTA terminal is just outside the door.
See the amazing things that happen when municipal control over the airports isn't ceded to the state politicians or to some port authority? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
My dad, a seasoned business traveler, with experience at almost all of the major U.S. airports, said that SeaTac is the worst airport he's had to connect at. I'm not sure exactly why.
As far as O'Hare regaining the title of "World's Busiest," don't count on it if American Airlines is successful in its bid to acquire TWA (see yesterday's and today's papers). Their plan is to use TWA's St. Louis hub to relieve congestion at their O'Hare and DFW hubs. Although this may reduce their traffic at O'Hare, I doubt they will voluntarily relinquish their takeoff and landing slots to a rival carrier. This congestion relief may be about the only good thing to come out of this merger. Don't count on Attorney General designee Ashcroft to prioritize anti-trust prosecution in his Justice Department. Do expect poorer customer service and higher fares as competition dwindles.
So what would a forward looking administration have to do to get out from this present situation. Is the P.A. administration selfsuficient. Does it pay for its self, or is it subsidised by bridge and Tunnel revenue, from port fees and what other sources of income it has. It seems the Ny Metro area is in a battle with the P.A. the P.A. wants a free hand in rail access to the airports and chose an incompatible type system just to avoid co operating with the current transit system. Who has the answers, or suggestions?
Tempus edax Rerum
avid
The NY Metro area is not in a battle with the PA. Rudy Guiliani is in a battle with the PA. There is an importance difference between the two.
The PA's and the city's interests overlap, but they are not the same - hence there is not always agreement over what is best for the area.
Is the P.A. administration selfsuficient. Does it pay for its self, or is it subsidised by bridge and Tunnel revenue, from port fees and what other sources of income it has.
The Port Authority is financially self-sufficient, not requiring tax subsidies. What's interesting is that its various components have very different financial consequences. The bridges and tunnels are huge cash cows (except, temporarily, the Lincoln Tunnel), the airports are highly profitable, and the World Trade Center does pretty well too. The seaport operations run at about the break-even point. Finally, PATH runs at a significant loss and the Bus Terminal is basically a bottomless money-devouring pit.
So perhaps gate fees at the bus terminals need to be looked at..
And a PATH fare increase (already in the works, of course).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No! Increasing bus fares will not necessarily turn people onto trains. If you have a group of people on an occasional weekend trip, the bus is cheaper than both the train or driving. But up the bus fares, and it'll be more cars.
Driving is still cheaper than a bus for most intercity trips.
People who take the bus:
Don't own a car.
Don't want to take a car.
Like busses for some strange reason.
Own a crappy car that would never make the journey.
Here is something you many not know about the bus terminal. It was actually profitable until a decade and a half ago, but the Port Authority charged big money to the interstate bus lines in order to cross-subsidize NJT, to reduce the tax burden on New Jersey (note the theme)?
Well, the intercity bus business collapsed as airline fares fell after deregulation. That left the PABT in the red. Unwilling to ask New Jersey to pay more, the PA simply took more money from elsewhere.
The real money loser is the George Washington Bridge bus terminal. How many people actually take a bus there and then catch the subway?
Well, I use the GW bus terminal both ways (coming and going to NJ) for trips where NJT from Hoboken or PATH doesn't go exactly where I need to go. I've noticed a fair number of other people doing that too. Granted, its ridership is nothing like the 8th Av terminal.
I used to take the interstate bus here from Pennsylvania, and I noticed there were never any stops in New Jersey. I figured it was because NJT had some kind of monopoly in New Jersey and no other buses had any reason to stop there. Does Greyhound or Trailways stop anywhere in New Jersey at all?
Unfortunately yes. At least half of greyhound/peter pan busses between Philly and NYC stop in Mt. Laurel and Camden.
I didn't say "Raise bus fares." I merely pointed out that the main revenue stream for the PA at the terminal most likely comes from gate fees or rent paid by the bus carriers. If the PA wants to lower its deficit there, then raising gate fees is one of the few options it has right now (another is leasing air rights over the terminal, which it also getting ready to do). Whether bus fares go up is up to the carriers, who will examine their margins and decide what, if anything, to do.
Hartsfield is perfectly designed for the purpose it serves: a hub. Hartsfield was the first airport designed specifically to fuction as a hub. Why should passengers who will never see baggage claim or ticketing have to go through security and another terminal to catch their connecting flight? Passengers at the two primary Delta concourses, A and B (they're at all the concourses, but anyway) can easily connect to their flight with the people mover. Crossing paths for people going in oppsite direcions is not a concern because there are seperate stops for baggage claim and ticketing. Passenger flow is excellent. Transfering passengers circulate between all the concourses, all within security. Security is right between the north and south ticketing, so there's no long walk, and baggage claim is at the very end, so it won't interfere with departing passengers. What's bad about that?
O'Hare has a way to go to catch up with Hartsfield to be the world's busiest. ATL carried 6 million more than ORD in 1999, and if you check www.airports.org you'll see that ATL had 6 million more passengers in 2000 up til September, ATL also had a higher growth in the number of passengers than ORD from 1999.
Harsfield is a case study in effienicy. It has only four runways, sits on a land area of only a little more than 3,700 acres and less than 200 gates, yet it manages to be the world's busiest in passengers and in takeoffs and landings. Starting this month Hartsfields is beginning a 10 year expansion program with construction of a new runway, terminal building and concourse, a second MARTA station to serve the new terminal and improved access roads and drop-off areas. For the curious, see The Master Plan ATL is projected to handle 121 million passengers by 2015. I wonder why? ATL is poorly designed, right? Who knows why it's so successful.
For the layed-over railfan, there's the people mover, that runs on a 13 station, 3.5 mile loop, and a nice big railfan window. Good for a few hours of fun. Also, MARTA is right at the west end of the main terminal for really long layovers.
Are you referring to the "fifth runway" which originally was intended as a 6,000 foot prop runway and now will be extended to 9,000 feet?
Yes. They still need approval for the 9,000 ft one, but they can start building the 6,000 ft section. In fact, work starts this month, beginning with a drainage system.
Well, let's not get too general with the criticisms here - everyone makes mistakes from time to time, and everyone does something "heads up" from time to time too.
Kennedy here is not regarded as a great airport - but it is not wholly bad either.
As an example: When I try to catch a Delta flight from JFK, I have to negotiate a rather confusing terminal - and that's Delta's fault as much as the PA. On the other hand, when I land at JFK, picking up luggage and leaving has been very easy (except for lack of rail service, now being remedied). Not to mention that JFK is a good "plane spotter" airport, much more so than O'Hare (though most travellers don't care about that). And JFK has probably the longest runway with the best safety margin of any US airport runway - 14,500 feet. The Space Shuttle could land there!
I'd like to see improvements there, and many are in progress. Terminal 4 looks pretty good so far. Foodwise, Sylvia's of Harlem is opening a branch there! Can't get much more original than that.
In a few years, when it's all done, we'll be able to assess the whole gestalt and see if JFK is really better.
Delta said that it was going to rebuild a terminal at JFK for $2 billion. Is that right?
I believe that's correct.
When comparing airports, I think we need to consider whether it is our home airport, our destination airport, or a transfer airport. They can be three completely different experiences. As a home airport, I really like PHL, but I've heard that people who make transfers there hate it. If I'm transferring, I don't care if there is rail access to the airport. As a destination, however, I'm not likely to visit a place that I need a taxi to get downtown.
You make very good points. So noted.
The sixth runway at Denver International Airport will be 16,000 feet long. A grant was awarded recently which will permit grading to be completed; construction including pouring of concrete is expected to take two years. This runway was supposed to be built along with the rest of the airport when it opened, but wasn't due to cost overruns. It's needed because a fully loaded jumbo jet cannot otherwise take off on hot summer days due to the altitude.
So now Denver will hold the record for longest runway - but Kennedy's near-15,000 feet are more effective because that runway is close to sea level...
The Denver authorities are being prudent.
Because of Denver's mile-high altitude, a fully-loaded jumbo jet needs a longer runway in order to take off in hot weather. DIA officials hope that the 16,000-footer will attract more international flights, which typically use jumbo jets.
BTW, DIA's five existing runways are all 12,000 feet long. Plus there's enough space for six more, not including the 16,000-footer.
Because of Denver's mile-high altitude, a fully-loaded jumbo jet needs a longer runway in order to take off in hot weather. DIA officials hope that the 16,000-footer will attract more international flights, which typically use jumbo jets.
BTW, DIA's five existing runways are all 12,000 feet long. Plus there's enough space for six more, not including the 16,000-footer.
I once heard a story about DIA, but it sounded a little urban-legendish to me. Hopefully you'll know. At any rate, during the first year or so after the airport opened, people returning rental cars to the on-airport agencies had no way of avoiding those exhorbitant refuling charges imposed on anyone returning a car with the gas gauge not on Full. DIA was so isolated, the story went, that a car would use up enough fuel getting there that its gauge would not be on Full even if it were filled at the nearest gas station. Supposedly there now are stations on or near airport property, and the problem's been solved.
A good reason to extend Denver's light rail to the airport! Has that idea ever been proposed? I have layovers in Denver every now and then, and it'd be fun to take a ride while I'm on the ground.
Mark Michalovic
As Nixon used to say, I'm glad you asked that question.
There is a commuter rail line on the drawing boards from Union Station downtown out to DIA. It would follow I-70 along Smith Rd., stopping at the old Stapleton parking garage which is now a Park'n'Ride, then follow Pena Blvd. out to the airport. It's still quite a way from becoming a reality, though. The Central Platte Valley Spur is next on the list of lines to be built, and they're supposed to be starting on it in a month or two.
And, yes, there are gas stations near the airport now, off Pena Blvd. Hotels and motels are starting to spring up in that area as well.
A commuter train between DIA and Union Station would be great! Then instead of taking a commuter plane to western Colorado, I could fly into Denver and easily take Amtrak to points west. For those who have never taken the ride, the train ride between Denver and Grand Junction is spectacular, and not to be missed.
But even if its some years away, I'm pleased to hear light rail is expanding. I'd rather have a rail project delayed because other rail plans are more urgent than because of politics, nimbyism, etc.
Mark Michalovic
What was so bad about Hartsfield? Since I never need to layover there, I don't know what would be bad that isn't at any other busy airport.
Bus schedules and routes are easy to understand and buses are fairly frequently, Sunday service is good
It's not so great in the suburbs. I remember a ride from Redmond to downtown Seattle on the weekend involved an hour-long ordeal via the Bellevue Transit Center, on a maybe hourly bus. Then again, I guess that's better than some suburbs in the NYC area.
Do they give out system maps yet? I was unable to find any to take with me when I was there.
There are tracks already in place in the Metro tunnel, what are they for? I was hoping that they guide the buses thru the tunnel, but I couldn't see anything on the bus that would suggest that.
They're for show. When the bus tunnel was built light rail funding wasn't in place yet. I guess they put the rails there to give the illusion that they tunnel could be converted quickly to light rail, and to make it seem more like light rail was a done deal. In reality there was something with the way the rails were installed that makes them unusable for actual light rail service, so they have to rip them up and relay them.
The rails have nothing at all to do with the buses. I seem to remember "signals" interspersed in the tunnels as well, which have only one aspect that stays on all the time. :-)
Traveling allows me to appriciate other cities' airports, my another interest of mine. I didn't get a chance to ride it, but there are three people movers at SeaTac. Anyone ever ride them?
Yeah. They don't go all that fast, and I think they're automated. Certainly the announcements are. IIRC the announcements are given in three languages, one is English. Supposedly (someone told me this, I don't know if this is true) the non-English languages vary based on time of day and/or day of week, depending on where the most international flights are going to / coming from.
I'm just guessing here, but would they be Japanese, French, Korean, and Mandarin?
It's been a while since I've been there ... I heard Japanese for sure, and I think I remember hearing Mandarin. I don't remember (or didn't recognize) others.
I used to live in Seattle and I've definitely heard Japanese, French, and Spanish - but not at the same time, and I'd wondered why. Your explanation certainly makes sense.
The Seattle Airport ain't pretty, but as a practical matter's it's well-designed. I think Seattle was among the first airports to put large, tall garages right near the flights, which reduces walking time. The people mover was also pretty forward-thinking - it's been running at least since the early 70s, when I was a toddler and really loved riding it (especially since it was the way to pick up Gramma and Grampa).
The biggest complaints I've heard lately (I haven't been there in a while) is that it's overwhelmed because of population growth. But that's Seattle in general, and a big reason I don't go there anymore.
Do they give out system maps yet? I was unable to find any to take with me when I was there.
Only for individual routes. I wish there was a map for all the routes, becuase I wanted one.
I seem to remember "signals" interspersed in the tunnels as well, which have only one aspect that stays on all the time. :-)
Yup, always green. I thought that they had other signals, but I just missed seeing them.
>>Do they give out system maps yet? I was unable to find any to take with me when I was there.
>Only for individual routes. I wish there was a map for all the routes, becuase I wanted one.
I picked up a King County Metro system map at the information desk at SeaTac airport. It's marked "effective September 1998" but that may be have been the latest version when I was there (April 1999). Pierce Transit (Tacoma and surrounding communities, essentially) also produces a system map, but I don't remember where I picked it up.
I had the good fortune to ride the oldest Redbird (and thus the oldest car still in subway revenue service) earlier today on the east side IRT. Kudos to R26 #7750 and the men/women who helped keep her on the road these past 40 years.
Gonna miss the Redbirds. Lotsa history there.
the r-142s will not last 1/2 that long !! what line was she on ??
All R-26s and 28s reside on the 5. Some train will be temporarily relocated to the 2 during the morning and afternoon rush, but they always go back at the end of the day.
good old classics!!
the r-142s will not last 1/2 that long !!
Of course it won't. It will last twice as long (OK, not as much, but much longer than your mental age).
how old are you "mental midget" ????
Can't be so sure about that. Here in DC, car 1001 arrived before 1000. All you can say by the numbering is which was numbered first. Not which was manufactured first or what arrived on the property first.
Still cool though.
Just for information the R22's were delivered with the GE group first which were 7525-7749 ; then the 7300-7524 Westinghouse group. This is basic info--somewhere I recall the last 10 or so came with fiberglass seats and a different interior paint scheme, speckled green of sorts.And I think for some reason they were in the GE group but delivered later..I seem to remember them being 7525 and up.??
>>>Gonna miss the Redbirds. Lotsa history there.
Yes, indeed. Thirty years from now, many of those who can't wait to get rid of them will see these cars as valuable antics. Ride them now while they are still in service - not standing motionless as exhibits in a museum (or a ocean reef :))
-cordially,
turnstiles.
I have several car number plates in my collection, on the way home after buying plate number 7804, on the number 5 train, I rode in car number 7804! The plates that I have were removed from the cars in the GOH in the late '80s.
Actually I think they were removed during the graffitti epidemic of the 70's. I can recall seeing many of them in a stack at Coney Island yard, and yes, I took one or two [long gone]. I recall then they were using tape numbers and just pasting them on.
Thanks Ed,
A lot of those tape and stick numbers are peeling off and the plates are rusted. Good for us collectors, though. At least we can buy some inexpensive relics of the redbirds. The Transit Museum sells them for $5.00.
Nat
I managed to get number plates from the 7000, 8000, and 9000 series in my collection! Glad the Transit Museum decided to sell them off!
Marc
You are lucky. 7804-05, I have heard is the oldest surviving Redbird on the property. These were delivered before 7750-51. Cars were delivered with higher numbered series coming first, and lower numbered cars came afterward.
-Stef
Wow,
Thanks for telling me this! She looked to be in fairly good shape. She was the second car of the consist-7805 being the lead north motor of a nortbound 5 train at Brooklyn Bridge on 12/7. I hope I meet up with her again, I'll try to snap a picture.
Nat
How was its appearance? Some of the oldest Redbirds have severe corrosion problems, to the extent that you can see right through the holes into the car's interior.
Some of the R142As will reuse some of the redbird numbers. They will use Nos. 7750 - 7760. These are the numbers presently ib use on some R-26s.
BMTJeff
Every now and then people ask about the NY Division ERA meetings. I just received by January meeting notice and have posted it here.
I typically post them in the Upcoming Events. Didn't receive my January notice yet, though.
Thanks for the post Paul ... if you never have been to one of these & your a railfan ... you must. I've been to several meetings & trips.
Mr t__:^)
Our trip's tomorrow and we still don't really have a handle on where bathrooms are located within the NYCS. Please list every station you guys know with a bathroom.
Aren't they all closed? unless they reopened a few, the majority have been locked up for... how long now? 15, 20 years at the least.
Okay, 179 Street on the F upstairs. Brighton Beach downstairs on the Brighton 7th Street end. Coney Island. I think there's on at Canal Street on the N/R Line on the Brooklyn Bound Platform. Sheepshead Bay on the D/Q at the Sheepshead Bay Road exit. Rockaway Park on the Rockaway Shuttle. Mott Avenue on the A. Just don't wait till the last mimute. They always disappoint you when their closed.
36 St on the B/N/M/R and Roosevelt Ave E/F/G/R/7 immediately come to mind (the latter is really, really horrendous). I think Beach 116 St has one, too.
Kings Hwy 24hr entrance (center near C/R). Dekalb maybe maybe not but there is a candy stand within fare control he somtimes has hot dogs.
I'm afraid you're too late!
They should be on their trip right now!
57 st Manhattan N/R
34th Herald sq.
Jamaica Center(E,J,Z) and Pelham Bay Park(6).
Most IND terminal stations (wether the tracks end there or not), plus Church Ave, 34st on the BMT, Coney Island, Willets Pt-Shea Stadium, Rockaway terminals, and Roosevelt Ave.
There's a bathroom available at all 468(?) stations. It's called the end of the platform. :)
Just don't whiz on the electric fence. When I worked at the TA, I got to see the end result ... and it's something you really don't want to see. Wouldn't want to see my own pride and joy look like charcoal colored popcorn ... assuming it could be identified. Going between cars is ALSO a really bad idea. Same 600 volt reason.
Don't forget to go before you go I s'pose ... and don't ask the conductor if we're there yet. :)
The LIRR Rockaway line should be a subway, and it should be reconnected to the A line at Far Rockaway, (they were originally connected.) The only problem I forsee is that the branch leaves the five boroughs. Getting it sanctioned a rapid transit subway may be tough.
By the way, which station at Far Rockaway is the original? The elevated one on the A line or the ground level one on the LIRR?
I was thinking that if the LIRR could spare the trackage (I'm betting they can't) the tracks that run from Jamaica through Locust Manor and Laurelton could be made into subway tracks--in fact they could be that E extnsion.
:-) Andrew
Wasn't that the plan back when the Archer Ave. extension was designed?
The original plan, IIRC, was to use the Atlantic Branch ROW. Just don't ask me which of the two lines in SE Queens is the Atlantic Branch and which the Montauk Branch.
The Atlantic Branch has stops at Locust Manor, Laurelton, and Rosedale, generally served by Long Beach and Far Rockaway Branch trains. Montauk Branch goes through St. Albans and Babylon Branch trains normally traverse it.
When W Hempstead is running past Valley Stream, which one does it use?
Are there any trains (diesels) terminating at Jamaica?
Electric trains to Hunterspoint Avenue?
>>>Are there any trains (diesels) terminating at Jamaica?<<<
Yes, on the Oyster Bay and Montauk branches.
>>>Electric trains to Hunterspoint Avenue?<<<
No.
West Hempstead trains will generally use the Atlantic branch if they are going to stop at Valley Stream and the Montauk if they are skipping Valley Stream -- but there's no hard rule. Also, if the connection from Penn (no Penn to West Hempstead direct trains) is a Babylon train, then the WH train will use the Atlantic. If it is a Long Beach or Far Rock, then it will use the Montauk.
The 5:29 Hunterspoint to Ronkonkoma is the only train from Hunterspoint which runs exclusively in electric territory. I believe that it is usually an MU-train.
CG
If they ever get around to extending the E train into SE Queens on the Atlantic Branch ROW, is there enough capacity on the Montauk Branch to handle the current Atlantic Branch traffic along with what the Montauk Branch handles now?
Isn't the terminus at Parsons/Archer beyond where the Atlantic branch turns off the LIRR aminline? If so, how would they connect the subway to that branch?
Isn't the terminus at Parsons/Archer beyond where the Atlantic branch turns off the LIRR aminline?
It is not.
"Isn't the terminus at Parsons/Archer beyond where the Atlantic branch turns off the LIRR aminline? "
"It is not. "
It absolutely is. The Atlantic branch breaks off from the Main Line just east of Jamaica Station, at about 150 Street. (In fact, you can see the street sign for 150 St from the cross-under to the Atlantic).
Parsons/Archer is about 4 blocks east of there. I'd guess that even if you broke off immediately after clearing the platforms at Sutphin you'd need a wheel screeching 90 degree turn to get onto the Atlantic branch.
CG
That 90 degree turn already exists at Parsons Blvd-Jamaica Center! It's on the upper level E tracks. The tunnel extends about 1000 feet as far as Liberty Avenue. (I don't know if they use it for layups).The turn may even be more than 90 degrees since the tracks have to double back somewhat to reach the Atlantic Branch tracks. The original plan was to have these tracks come above ground and merge with the Atlantic Branch around South Road. The Atlantic Branch would then become a subway line serving southeast Queens.
True it makes a 90 degree angle, but the entire section actually resembles an S curve. The length of the tunnel from the edge of the E platform to the bumper blocks is approximately 38 car lengths or 2280 feet. At the blocks, there is an emergency exit marked "168 St" at around Liberty Av. And each track holds three layups each.
If the "E" were to surfass, wood there be enuff Wright away to allow for the additional tracks? Or wood the present tracks be shared or given over totally to subway usage? Wood additional stations be built? How long to re-signal or dual signal the line. Wood a layup be set up on an expanded embankment east of Rosedale. Wood the MTA try to test the waters by going all the way to Valley Stream?
HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING of course.
The operative word here is "IF".
avid
I think the plan was for the subway to take over the Atlantic branch as far as Laurelton or Rosedale, but that would have forced all the LIRR Atlantic Branch trains to use the already heavily utilized Montauk Branch. At the very least, a high density signalling system would have had to be installed on the Montauk Branch. I think there's enough clearance alongside the Atlantic Branch to add 2 side tracks. In the late 1950's they were able to keep 2 temporary tracks open while they did a grade crossing elimination project on that branch. The LIRR could therefore use the 2 express tracks, while the subway would use the side (local) tracks.
A cheeper way to do it would be to close St. Albans and consider a third track on the Montauk branch between Jamaica & Valley Stream, i.e. the two track section.
Others have even suggested the line also take ove the LIRR Rockaway line.
Mr t__:^)
I agree that it should be reconnected, but as an LIRR line.
Actually neither. Both stations were pretty much built after the connection was severed. The orginal LIRR Far Rockaway station was where the Waldbaum/Jamaica Savings Bank shopping center is now on Mott Av. If you're interested in reading about the old Rockaway Line read "Change At Ozone Park" by Herbert George.
It hasn't been a Waldbaum's for years. It's an Associates now.
Jamaica Savings Bank is still there.
Why would sanctioning be so difficult. Asdide from money. What legalities would keep the TA, a branch of the MTA from its property. If the tracks were kept separate, FRAs would be out. Maybe policeing the property, but I'm sure Nassau could work with the City officers.
Lack of equipement, GOH-II the r/38s,R/40s, R/42s, M/1s. Signals and fare control and security could be solved.
Transfer and share ROWs, Bring back the Far Rockaway Loop and the Hempstead Loop. Then cast a jaundice eye north, to Westchester County and push the "A" & "D" trains to further the Empires boaders!
Avid
That idea would never happen because all those communities in the 5 Towns area would never allow it to happen. Also, what would commuters gain by this "conversion?"...a longer ride?...again, no one would want to ride a subway car verses a LIRR MU for that length of time.
You're right on both counts.
If you really wanted to extend service to Nassau County, your best bet would probably be to send the E or the F out to Hempstead along Hempstead Avenue/Turnpike.
Those communities (Elmont, Franklin Square) would probably be least likely to resist, and most likely to ride as they currently have no direct LIRR service anyway.
CG
The Queensbound F is going thru the 63rd Street connector this weekend right?
The E, F, R all going through 63rd Street connector, with the E running on 6th Ave until West 4 and the R running to 57/7. It will be pretty interesting Saturday and Sunday.
It'd be pretty weird for all the people on the 63st line, seeing E,F,R go one way and never return.' There'd be service every 4 minutes in one direction, every 20 in the other.
Why is the R going through 63 street? Work is only being done in the 53 street tunnel.
No it's not!!!! The crossovers at Queens Plaza are being redone!!
I came across this tidbit on the CNN site: Massage and a Snack
Just imagine the lunacy if they tried that in NYC.
Peace,
ANDEE
1. Are they still going to rebuild the L line between Atlantic Avenue and East New York, tearing down the Fulton El sections?
2. Are they going to cut the "horseshoe" out of Canal Street on the J and close one side of the station, rerouting the Jamaica-bound train to the Chanbers Street bound express track?
I know these were projected projects, but when are they going to start? I think they're both useless and a waste of money. They should be using their money to build a Second Avenue Subway.
Didn't they just renovated Canal Street on the Nassau line? I don't know if they would close down something they just renovated, with all those new tiles and everything. But the TA have done some things like this in the past.
They only renovated the downtown side, the part they're planning on keeping. They didn't even reopen the passage from the bridge station to the northbound side.
I don't know if they would close down something they just renovated, with all those new tiles and everything. But the TA have done some things like this in the past.
Like renovating the abandoned shuttle platform at Bowling Green. That sounds like it was also a waste of money.
>>>Like renovating the abandoned shuttle platform at Bowling Green. That sounds like it was also a waste of money. <<<
IIRC the shuttle was still in service at the time they renovated that platform.
Peace,
ANDEE
1. Are they still going to rebuild the L line between Atlantic Avenue and East New York, tearing down the Fulton El sections?
2. Are they going to cut the "horseshoe" out of Canal Street on the J and close one side of the station, rerouting the Jamaica-bound train to the Chanbers Street bound express track?
Yes on both counts. In fact, the contract numbers are included in the book.
It will be a shame to see the removal of the K tracks at Atlantic from a historical perspective. But reducing unnecessary ironwork helps out neighbourhoods and will also aid the CBTC system (less possible diverging routes). Likely the sold-off iron work will generate a bit of revenue as well, but I would have to think that it would be minor, at best.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
again today, big delays on NJT. This makes every day this year so far! First there was a disabled train at NY Penn and all Westbound trains were held and one train cancelled. Then after 45 minutes of wait, I finally got a train. AFter I got home, WCBS 880 tells of more delays due to drawbridge problems.
This is not a third world country. This is not Hawaii or Florida. NJT should expect snow and as such needs to learn how to deal with snow and ice(As should Amtrak)
Perhaps Amtrak is the problem, not NJT. Most of LIRR's problems also occur in and around Penn station.
>>>This is not a third world country<<<
No, it's a third world state.
I'm hearing an awful lot of the R-142's being tested and running to and fro. It does nothing for me, but I would like to know if the R68's will still be running on my Sea Beach line? I like the way they run and the way they look. But after taking the Sea Beach off the Manny B, making it a local, and now talking of terminating it at 86th Street, who knows what's next? I hope they keep running the R68's because I think they are an impressive looking car. No, nothing like my all time favorites, the D Triplex, but nice, nevertheless.
Fred:
I believe so. The last time I rode the N, just over a week ago, the R-68's still plied the rails.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Yep, and the N is almost split even R-68 and R-32, with an R-68a or R-40 slant coming around every so often. Uptown it's a Broadway express until March, then downtown express until June. Cuts a whole 2 minutes off, but feels a lot faster.
Sea Beach Express? You mean it. Sounds wonderful. I wonder when some TA dork will find this out and terminate it. Oh, for the Sea Beach to run exclusively as an express again.
>>>the Sea Beach to run exclusively as an express again.
Fred:
It was exclusively an express? Never knew that. Please confirm this - thanks!
-cordially,
turnstiles
The N used to run express in Manhattan 24/7 once upon a time. I remember it well - R-32s zipping effortlessly along Broadway then later, R-42s. It also ran express along 4th Ave. at all times many years ago, then was scaled back to running express along 4th Ave. during daytime hours Mon-Sat. At the same time, it no longer skipped DeKalb except during rush hours. As for the Sea Beach open cut portion, the Franklin-Nassau specials ran nonstop from 59th St. to Stillwell Ave via the express tracks.
Actually, it's 4 Avenue express during daytime hours only from Monday through Friday.
Thanks Steve. You just answered Turnstiles question for me. I remember even farther back than that. What a sight to see and hear the Triplex roaring through stations in Manhattan and Brooklyn until it got to the open cut. We made fast time on my train. It was the express' express, if you know what I mean. Today it is just a shell of what it was and could be again. The TA, damn them.
According to the 1994 map in Lex/53rd, at one point the N had no express service in Brooklyn at all. It read: N now runs express on 4th ave, M-F except nights.
The R-68's are quite nice...however, the R'32's are so much warmer and cozy in the winter time....still can't stand the slant R40's (the seating)....my guess for Manny Bridge assignments, the N will still be R68/R32..keep in mind that the slants have YELLOW Q signs as well as yellow W signs....so, as always, N will be left with the R32's and R68's....
Has anyone seen the R40's on the B over the weekends with the 145 St terminal sign...doesn't that bring back memories???...
Question: do they even have enough cars to run service once the new changes come into place: V train, Bronx D's and B's, two Bklyn Q's....
MAYBE they should cancel west end M trains and take some R42's for Q service which would more or less resember the Nassau/Brighton thing...
just a thought....
The R-68 and 68A do have yellow Q, circle and diamond, and diamond yellow W, as does also the R-32 and 38. At least on the side. I've scrolled through often. For the 68 I may have been looking at the replacement rollsign.
Another Sea Beach man on this website. It's about time. I need some backup all the time against those Brighton boys. Welcome aboard.
You are forgetting. A split B (aka the B and W) and a full B need about the same number of cars. Same with the D and Q. As for the V, I guess it gets the cars the G won't need anymore.
I wonder what subway stations are considered the most unsafe to be at night. One would think the busier stations would probably be the safest, such as 42nd street Grand Central or Times Square in Midtown.
In Queens, I guess Main street-Flushing would be the safest since the 7 is said to be busy at all times.
But someone told me that Flushing is quite dangerous, especially at night when asian gangs roam around.
So is there any truth to that? Anybody here who lives in Flushing, please give us the real scoop on what the place is like.
On the other end, I'd guess stations like Broadway-East New York, Coney Island-Stillwell, and Far Rockaway would be the most dangerous at off hours.
Is Broadway-East New York really dangerous during non rush hours?
Is there still a police station right within the complex at B'way - ENY? I remember being there at 2AM back in the 80's and not feeling unsafe.
I live a long way from Brooklyn now so I'll can't tell you!
Is there still a police station right within the complex at B'way - ENY?
Yes.
All stations are safe at the waiting areas. Avoid lengthy transfer passages, though. Also avoid smaller spaces; large open areas deter criminals. Stay in high traffic areas. Hold on to your back pack or pocket book. Stand away from the platform edge, especially when trains are entering and leaving the station.
Well after a break for awhile I got to some hard core railfanning today.
First, a ride to Jamaica on the Oyster Bay line. Seemed to be faster than usual, I guess we had a good LE. Also the announcements were working properly this time.
At Jamaica I got off and headed down to the subway for the E.
I got an R32, and it was a pretty fast ride down Queens Blvd express.
Even with the timers we managed good speed between Forest Hills and Roosevelt. It was nice, no F in front of us we really raced through that stretch under Northern blvd.
53rd street tubes were fast, but there was an F sitting in Lexington for a few minutes. Got off at 5th, and changed to an F, Got off at 34TH then waited for an express. Let a Hippo D go by, then got a Q.
The dash was awesome as usual, and I'm sure gonna miss it when the flip happens. Over Manhattan bridge there were track workers, so there was a big slowdown. The bridge portal tunnels were lit up by work lights. Got off at Dekalb, then got a D going toward Manhattan.
Later I decided to take the L train, from beginning to end. I never been on the L past Bedford. First train was a Slant R40, got on at 8th to get on when it was empty so the window would be available. The ride through the 14th street tubes was dissapointed, we had a "scardey cat" T/O, and he let the timers clear way ahead. There are alot of stops on that L line, and alot of curves. After a seemingly endless local run underground we emerge after Halsey street, but there was only the eastbound track above ground. There was a large freight yard to the right, a cemetary to the left. At Wilson we stop underground and the westbound is beside us once again, then above ground after Bushwick. East New York station looked nice, and there were several unused trackways in the vicinity. What a beautiful complex of el's! Then around Livonia the IRT #3 line crosses over us. The area was definately not the kind of area you'd want to walk around though.
Shortly after we arrive at the last stop, Rockaway pkwy. There was another L of R42's on the other platform. I ran to the head end, since I wanted to have an R42 going back.
You get a better view of some of those unused trackways. After Bway-ENY it goes underground, for good. Get some good speed in that particular spot. I was looking forward to 14th street tubes. But we had another "scardey cat" and we did not blow through there.
At 8th ave I got a Brooklyn bound A of R44's. Did pretty well, Cranberry st tubes were fast, I like the way those 44's rock back and forth!
A Queens bound F from Jay street. The F train was fast through 53rd street tubes, but we had to slow down after Queens Plaza, due to skeletonized track.
After that the ride to 71st was fast, Queens-bound is always the best.
Needless to say, I'm damn anxious to see what that 63rd street connector looks like (this weekend right?).
Yes this weekend and i'm pretty excitied.
Since there is a zero tolerance policy for hitting a signal I would say the T/O's you encountered were doing the smart thing. TA is adamant about this; 30 days suspension or demotion to former title if you are on probation. I can't afford to miss 6 weeks pay. Can you?
I agree but for some reason when I rode the L through the 14th street tubes last year they went faster in there. Maybe they changed the timers?
The timers are the same. The thing is, some T/Os do worry (justly) about hitting a signal. When driving, would you race toward a red light at 55 MPH just because it's supposed to change? What if one day it didn't?
The place where T/Os shouldn't worry is the 60th st tubes. Timed at 50 with two shot timers. The other day a trainee slowed down for the first timer (past the one-shot), but the instructor told her to take it at full speed ("You don't slow down for these"), so she did. We topped at 56. It's nice to know new T/Os are bing shown exactly how fast you can go in these tunnels.
There was never a slow ride through the 14th St. tunnel with the BMT standards (downgrade, anyway) or the R-7/9s.
No, they didn't change the timers. You simply had a T/O who was not a "regular" and therefore didn't know how to work the timers.
Make that two new T/O's since I was in there twice. I just don't have the luck do I?
I've always wondered why, with todays laser utilizing survey equipement, that annoying zigzag at the bottom of the tube hasn't been eliminated. I almost get whiplash if I'm reading a book or drowsing. those tracks could be shimmed or reset or what ever to make MY ride smoother. There is a lesser Zigzag or dip on one side of the tracks of the north bound tube as well. I think the zig or dip is more noticable on the short wheel based 60ft R/32s and R/38s.
Anybody else notice this phenomena and been annoyed by it?
avid
Is there really a town called Country Life Press, or is that just the name of a station on the LIRR?
It's a station in Garnden City on the Hempstead branch... named after the publisher at that was at that site. This from www.lihistory.com:
At the same time, the inability to attract land buyers prompted the Garden City Corp. in 1910 to sell 40 acres on Franklin Avenue to Doubleday, Page & Co. -- a rare invitation to industry from the planned community. Former President Theodore Roosevelt laid the cornerstone and the publishing plant's 700 employees soon were turning out 6,500 books a day. Doubleday dubbed it Country Life Press, a name that lives in a railroad station by that name. (The plant closed in 1988 and has since been converted to offices.)
That sure explains it!
Thanks for the response, Todd!
Last January I interviewed at the Doubleday Book Club for a job, but didn't get it. The Doubleday building is still quite close to the station. It would have been a pleasure to use the station every day--it's in a quiet rural setting.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Here's a picture of the station from 1950.
Is the third rail uncovered in that picture??
I think with the exception of the raised platform to accomodate the M-1's, the station looks pretty much the same today.
By the way, when I was a 'lil kid in the late 50's, early 60's my grandparents used to take meto Brooklyn via the Hempstead Line. We always sat in the first car with me always talking to the engineer in the front vestibule/platform. Since C.L.P. was single track while the rest of the Hempstead Line double tracked (& Hempstead multi tracked with a yard), I remember once asking an engineer where the track was for the opposite direction. He said it was a few blocks away and being so young I actually believed him!!! Since we used the line in both directions I actually was amazed that both stations looked identical!!!It wasn't till I was a teenager that I realized the truth, that it was the same trackin both directions. By the way, the 1 station between Hempstead & CLP was the 1rst LIRR stretch I ever solo'ed on without adult supervision. (My first subway solo was by one of my grandmother's house in Vanderveer on the IRT one stop between Newkirk & Flatbush. I don't remember which one came first)
The SARGE-my homepagemy trainbuff pagemy MEMORIAL to ROOSEVELT RACEWAYmy Live World Webcam Pagemy ULTIMATE Abbott & Costello Trivia Quiz
Last I saw (a few years back), the station house was in pretty bad conditions, and it looked like kids were using it to hang out.
first off, George W. Bush is a drunkard, he picks an extremist for his attorney general seat, and he picks someone for what ever seat he assigned her to that exploits illegal immigrants. was he drinking when he picked these people too? who is he gonna pick to hold another political seat next? Marilyn Manson?
Interstingly enough, Marilyn Manson is a Republican. Linda Chavez had several employees who were in the country illegally, now she's up for Labor Secretary and she makes Ashcroft look like a liberal. The TREASONOUS opposition coined the phrase Slick Willie for Clinton, well we can NEVER LET BU$H FORGET THAT HIS ADMINSTRATION IS STAINED BY ILLEGITAMACY SO WE THE PEOPLE CALL HIM KING GEORGE,II.
What is wrong with illegal immigrants? Why do you think we can have a 4% unemployment rate and almost no inflation? Its because he have Mexicans comming in to clean toilets and pick crops for $6 an hour. Our ecomonic boom wouldn't have lasted as long w/o all that cheap labour. Some people might object to this exploitation, but $6 is better than nothing and in a recession INS clamps down and that's what they get.
Well getting off topic here, but the Bush administration's choices clearly show we turn a blind eye to the exploitation of illegal immigrants by the rich elite, and only something other than the two major parties, a party that represents ALL workers, will clean up the corrupt government that bows to the elite.
now that BUSH in in say goodbye to your R-142 funding !! looks like the redbirds will not all dissapear so fast after all !!!!
The heck with the R142 and R143 funding, those suckers are just about paid for. KILL the funding for the R160. That way, my "friends" the R38s and R40s can stick around.
Hey, zman! You may not have to worry too much. A well-placed source in NYCT told me that there are plans (not solidified) to hold onto the R-40M and R-42's for another go round of GOH (sorry, but supposedly this plan does NOT include the slant R-40's).
But here's the catch: when they go for the next upgrade the plan is to give them full-width cabs. Is this possible? I would think that to do this would mean eliminating the leftside doors on the A-end of the married sets.
BMTman
its mostlikely that R-40 slants will be scrapped suffering from massive frame corrosion(from my sources)
Do this and make them compatible with R/68s, and give up the cabs at the wedding ring end, for additional passenger seating. Are couplers compatible? If so upgrade the rest of the wiring and controls. Make some singles too. So 660 ft length sets can once again ply the "E","F" and "A".
avid
So most of the redbirds will survive! right ??
If they don't fall completely to a pile of rust first.
thats waht the car overhaul shop is for right ??
You can't unrust body panels.
-Hank
Picture a big electro-chemical contraption that turns the rust back into Fe. Dreaming again.
Thank you Salaam, you just proved one of my points in a previous post. Please do not take this the wrong way but you don't have a clue about car maintenance. The bodies of the redbirds are rusted so badly that conceivably one carbody could easily be seperated from the frame. Now, of course you can build retro-bodies, paint them red and weld them to 40 year old frames but every consultant that the TA and the MTA has hired has come back with the same answer, "SCRAP THEM". Do you know something that the consultants don't?
The rebuilt PCCs in Boston are very nice much better than the Breda or Boeings.
Redbirds aren't PCCs. I don't know much about subways, but I do know it seems that it'd be waste of money to rebuild piles of rust like the Redbirds. You can use that money to overhaul worthy cars that aren't forty years old and aren't rusted almost beyond repair.
if that happens, we would be riding corrosion cars later on. blame the chad i say!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but NYCT's annual report states that they recive no federal funds.
Dubya will, hopefully, do what's right--cut off funding to AMTRAK and deregulate the train system in much the same way Carter did with the airlines, thus bringing the effeincy of the market to the nation's railroads.
Yeah, Right Read The business page, The history of airlines over the last 20 years has been bankruptcy,followed by short periods of prosperity. Now TWA is the latest victim. Deregulation has wrecked the airline industry. and if you look at the shrinking rail network, Staggers has failed also.
May I kindly ask:
WHAT THE F--K?
-Deregluation has brought about competition (sowthwest)
-Competition has brought about lower prices (a round trip flight from DCA-LGA is cheaper than a round trip AMTRAK ticket between the same two dests.)
-Competion has forced the modernization of the aircraft fleet
-Modernization has made the fleet safer
-Competition has made the indutsry safer
.
.
.
The list goes on and on. Deregulation was the biggest accomplishment of the Carter admin.
excuse me, BUT
airfares are now extremely arbitrary, it costs more to fly from Rochester to CHGO than Rochester to London. Anyone can compute the fraud there. As to the comparison to ATK, think about the relative cost structure--ATK pays (directly on NEC, indirectly elsewhere) fot signaling etc. Airlines do not fund the FAA Airports are generally on gov't land--no real estate tax.
If yu think airfares are lower look at the figures--NYTimes Sunday travel sction givs a chart most weeks. Check out the "list" prices. The point is that one a given plane ticket prices for identical trips may vary by a factor of ten. For an in depth look at airline defects see the Don Phillips series in the Wash Post last spring.
excuse me, BUT
airfares are now extremely arbitrary...
excuse me, BUT
airfares are decided by what people are willing to pay for them, demand for them and supply for them, not just distance.
Eoconcrats think they have all the answers but the reality is that many airlines are in deep financial dew-dew and the public (Oh, I forgot, they don't matter even in an industry which takes in billions of subsidy dollars yearly) is being BADLY served. Meanwhile, The vultures are getting ready to go to work on US AIRWAYS and TWA Economics is a social science and Economists are social engineers who are no more infallible than LBJ's war on poverty Social engineers BTW, if an airline starts service to Upstate New York at reasonable fares, it is acquired and the upstate service is dropped or sharply curtailed.
You're obviously not a frequent flier. While there is more competition in some areas, there is less in others, and passengers get screwed. Remember Northwest in Minneapolis? THey had better than 75% of all flights from the airport, and when they started cancelling flights due to lack of equipment (delays in other parts of the country), people got screwed.
Since deregulation, Eastern and Pan Am, and now TWA, all at one time major players in the industry, and in fact the founders of it, are fallen flags. Did you know that combined, TWA-AA will hold 25% of all us air routes, and the combined US Air-United will hold 26%. That's 51% of the air route miles in the US under the control of two companies. Can you smell the future price fixing?
-Hank
As opposed to the past price fixing? The people who run businesses are no more moral or honest than the rest of us. (Isn't that a frightening thought?) They just have greater opportunity to indulge their greed.
Carter didn't suddenly wake up one morning and say to himself, "Looks like a nice day. I think I'll de-regulate the airlines." People didn't like the results of the way the system was being run. They complained. It was changed. Today, people don't like the status quo. They are complaining. It will be changed again.
In short, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." Of course, I think TR was the last Republican who really enforced the antitrust laws.
If deregulation was such a panacea, how come it's lights out in California? Coming to NYC by the way this spring with ALL of the same mistakes ... check your utility bill this month for a free preview. The reason I live up here in Selkirk is that I worked for (and QUIT) the NYS Public Service Commission ... motto: "Got candles?"
Ummm ... that's EXACTLY THE SAME as what Paturkey's geniuses here in Albany have done ... and with an election year coming up where Paturkey is planning on the third term that he promised not to go for because Mario did that, there is no political will to raise the rates in an election year but the wholesale is unregulated.
I *did* say that what's going on in California was a preview to here for all the same reasons - thanks for the details and all - may come as a surprise to others but not to me. I worked at Agency building 3 at the Erastus Corning Empire State Submarine pen. Remember that the PSC was also the brains behind the dual contracts, something I reminded my coworkers at PSC of frequently.
Got candles? :)
I thought all of you liberals were FOR higher enegry price. Remember AlGore's BTU tax?
Liberal? I don't think so ... but thanks for playing. Remember that John Lindsay was a republican. Liberals don't get past Newburgh alive ya know. :)
California's mistake was in thinking they could deregulate without building new power plants and without the utilities assuring themselves that their main supplier of natural gas -- Canada (surprise) wouldn't turn around and sell to higher bidders in the Midwest when the contracts ran out.
Most of the old natrual gas pipelines from the southwest to Southern California were deactivated when Canadan contracts underbid the domestic gas suppliers, who then found other parts of the country (i.e. the Northeast) to pipe the gas. And not building any new power plants for five years with the explosion in electric usage was just plain stupid.
Ummm ... once again the same deal - NIMBY's upstate, all power companies required to dump their turbines to other companies, Hydro Quebec, same, same, same ...
And the power plants up here in Niagara Mohawk land have all been sold to ... PSE&G ... so what power plants there WERE up here to take up NYC and LI's peaks now belong to New Jersey. Like I said, going to be an east coast rerun and I *worked* at PSC when these decisions were made. I'm not kidding ... buy candles ...
Wall Street Journal--a great fiction magazine
1.conservation? well yes we here in CA have done numerous things to reduce electricity use. In fact (speaking as an electrician) we have serious energy saving requirements both in new qnd remodel construction. For years we reduced usage enough to absorb population increases without new capacity. In fact, our utilities SAVED money by reducing usage back when the cost of capital was too high.
2. overly strict environmental regs? maybe, care for a breathing mask? Why do you think we have strict rules? Its the air, s-----!
3 Peak/off peak pricing? Gov Moonbeam tried to get it instituted. BUT the utilities balked. A very miniscule number of residential customers have it--just one I am personally acquainted with.
4. Stupid utility behaviours. THEY decided to play spot market. LA water & power said no thank you and is sitting pretty. THEY rolled the dice and...
Besudes, hthe other side of this debacle is that the utilities created holding co's to own generating capacity which are raking in the dough, but they don't count that as existing when they whine at PUC hearings.
5. Actual electricity shortage? Doubtful. SoCalEdison hired a bunch of MIT profs who concluded that the [rice gouging over last summer was caused by very well timed temporary plant shutdowns designed solely to spike rates(source LATimes--not exactly an anti-business paper.)And now for transit content, Coupla weeks ago a flack for BART said essentially we have a guaranteed price/no blackout contract. So escalators still run at off hours at lightly used stations still brightlyy lit(this IS stupid!) and the SF financial district was wqell lit for xmas.
In the same vein, Maryland officials now believe that they won't get funding for a Maglev train between Baltimore & Washington D.C. The line was proposed as part of the area's bid for the 2012 Olympics.
(Will somebody please tell me why one would need to travel between these two cities in 15 minutes? Amtrak regularly makes that run in about 35 minutes non-stop, and would be even quicker if not for the tunnel in west Baltimore. BTW, a few years ago I had the thrill of standing about 5 feet from a speeding Amtrak train as it blew thru the Laurel, MD MARC station on the "local" track. Talk about WHAAA!)
Republicans have traditionally been biased in favor of highways and air travel...which is what their constituents use. Buses and rail still have this stigma of being "low class". Besides, any commuter riding mass transit is not consuming gasoline, and you KNOW that cheeses off the oil lobby. Please remember that the "president-elect" is a former (read "failed") oil man, and you'll understand what the next four years will bring.
For what it's worth, Bush did support a bill while governor to allow matching funding by Texas to prevent the discontinuation of Amtrak's Texas Eagle service between Chicago and San Antonio. Amtrak said it would discontinue the four-times-a-week line because of its unprofibility, unless Texas would come through with finanical support (This came up during the election because when someone wrote Al Gore's office asking him to help preserve the Texas Eagle, his staff sent back a form letter outlining the vice president's commitment to protecting endangered species across the United States. Staffers -- ya gotta love `em).
(For what it's worth, Bush did support a bill while governor to allow matching funding by Texas to prevent the discontinuation of Amtrak's Texas Eagle service between Chicago and San Antonio.)
You just have to talk to the Republicans the right way:
"Boy, the roads are sure getting crowded these days, and its not just the number of cars, it's the type of people who are moving out to the suburbs and driving these days. Remember when there were not of them to be seen, in town or on the road? These seem genetically unable to drive, especially those immigrants! My Lincoln Navigator got a dent in the parking lot the other day. Wouldn't it be great if we could pack 'em all in rolling housing projects, and stuff in the liberal environmentalists too? Got to get us some more of those in our town!"
(Staffers -- ya gotta love `em).
I wrote few letters to politicians on a couple of subjects in the last couple of months, mostly the Medicaid Matching formula. Several came back "thank you for your comments on the Florida Election."
John,
Perhaps you'd like to explain how the "Bush administration's choices clearly show we turn a blind eye to the exploitation of illegal immigrants by the rich elite".
From what I've read, Ms. Chavez became aware of the plight of a Guatemalan (illegal) immigrant sometime around 1991. Apparently this woman (Ms. Mercado) was being abused by her boyfriend, with whom she lived. Chavez took Mercado into her home, and did not ask her about whether or not she was in the country legally. During the time that Mercado lived with Chavez, Chavez drove her to job interviews and taught her how to use the subway in Washington to get to and from other interviews and appointments. (a quick flash of vaguely on-topic material, to be followed ever-so-swiftly by divergence once again)
To earn additional cash, Mercado did odd jobs for Chavez and some of her neighbors (housekeeping, babysitting, dog walking). Apparently this went on for about a year, before Mercado returned to Guatemala (for those who don't recall, Guatemala was particularly unsafe in the late 80's/early 90's).
About the only fact in dispute is when Chavez learned of Mercado's illegal status. Mercado says she told Chavez after she'd been living with her for about 3 months. Chavez says she didn't know until Mercado had gone back to Guatemala and then contacted her about needing assistance to re-enter the U.S. (Mercado is now in the U.S., legally).
So, where is the exploitation? Or as Rev. Jackson claimed, "indentured servitude"?
CG
The party of "zero tolerance" might heed their own rhetoric here - "the law is the law is the law is the law" ... she's toast. Today she admitted that she LIED to the FBI about it and knew from the very first moment and chose not to heed the law BECAUSE ... "I thought she was out of the country and therefore I did not have to disclose this to the FBI." Pretty damning for the "Law & Order party" I would think.
Please watch the closing rhetoric, step lively ...
Selkirk, GOOD NEWS FOR WORKING PEOPLE The stupid witch, Linda Chavez withdrew her name from consideration for Labor secretary. One Down, Two Asscroft (The Crisco kid) and Gale Norton (Anne Burford II) To Go YEE HAAAH
It's going to be different now. We are going to have the bully pulpit of the Presidency, and if the Dimwitocrats want a war, they're going to get one. Bush will be underestimated just as Reagan was, and that will be to the Dems' undoing. Remember Texans voted for Bush overwhelmingly, and he took Gore's state as well, as Clinton's, too. And BTW, we Republicans turned against Nixon when we found out he was a sleeze, but the Dems never turned on that draft dodging, lying, philandering no good bum leaving the White House in ten days. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
off topic ... i remember the 2 no good BUMS regan & bush !!!!
And BTW, we Republicans turned against Nixon when we found out he was a sleeze, but the Dems never turned on that draft dodging, lying, philandering no good bum leaving the White House in ten days.
The reason the Democrats never turned against Clinton is because the only thing that whoever was the office of the Chief Government Pervert (OIC), be it Kenneth Starr, Robert Ray or the first guy, proved nothing more than Clinton's marital infidelity. Something that's nobody's business except for the Clinton family. The president shouldn't have even testified to the Chief Pervert.
The impeachment was just a good old witch hunt. Andrew Johnson was impeached under the same circumstances: His real crime was being hated by the opposition, so they came up with some lameo excuse.
So lying under oath is not a crime, nor is perjury. Is that what you're saying? No wonder our youth today is such dire straits as far as morals are concerned. If this is the thinking of young people, what happened Columbine in '99 is now understandable. When right and wrong become blurred, human decency is the first casualty.
And what was Iran / Contra, Ronnie had his head up his butt, yet he supposedly had Denyability! You swallow that bunk? Or was he, even then a simple puppet, still in show biz?
Please lets get back to trackin' and trollin'!
avid
Avid: Yes Ronald Reagan was culpable, but that's just it. We Republicans will admit when our guys screw up, but the Dems don't. Even Robert Byrd, US Senator from W. Vir. said Clinton was guilty of obstructing justice and perjury, then voted to acquit him. But back to transit. Here's a question for you or someone else. Know the old Culver route now traversed by the F train? After Ditmas Avenue, the train heads into a tunnel for a number of stops. Whoi built that tunnel, was it the BMT, or the Independent Line. Remember, the Ind. F used to terminate at Church Avenue, the next stop after Ditmas, I believe. I have never had that question answered clearly for me.
The "Lower Brooklyn" IND was connected to the Culver BMT arround 1955. Together they make up the line that is today's F.
Andrew
That was the D from 55 until 67 on the Culver
That was the D from 55 until 67 on the Culver. Prior to that it was the F that terminated at Church Ave
>>>We Republicans will admit when our guys screw up,
Fred:
Well, you might, but most of the Republicans in Congress certainly do not. Some Republicans and conservative journals (National Review, and probably others) have even advance "revisionist" and scarily positive opinions about Nixon's political career, whom you admit was quite wrong and quite an embarassment to his party.
-cordially,
turnstiles
I beg to differ. Most republicans supported his resignation. However, historians have partially vindicated Mr. Nixon. While he had a definite short-fall in the area of ethics, he was one of the most effective modern era presidents in the area of foreign affairs. Of course, clinton's claim to fame may turn out to be in the field of magic. I'd love to know how Vince Foster's body moved itself after he killed himself. Now there's a neat trick.
Train Dude: All right - not a problem:
>>>Most republicans supported his resignation.
How about his impeachment. Remember he resigned in order to avoid an actual impeachment?
Also, how many Republicans supported Nixon's resignation early on - while he was still publically denying the mounting evidence? When evidence came in concerning his V.P., Agnew? Also, how about the turning over of the tapes? Or Nixon's initial claims about the "missing" blank areas of the tapes. It is easy to abandon a clearly sinking (political) ship, but blind party loyalties last quite some time.
Numerous Democrats in Congress have criticized Clinton on one thing or another over the years. Not just southern conservative Democrats either; even Senator Bob Kerrey very seriously and publically critiqued Clinton on one of his sexual scandals (I cannot remember which right now) - which, in context of the time of the critique and which party KErrey is in, may be easily interpreted as almost the next thing to asking him to quit.
And concerning Vince Foster, let's just say that I don't exactly adore Clinton either.
Also, (although Democrats would certainly do the same thing if Clinton was impeached), do keep in mind that Gerald Ford, the so-called conciliatory president, did totally pardon Nixon of all offenses soon after his inauguration, claiming that he wanted to move on. Noone was fooled. Clearly, party politics is not dead - in either major party.
>>>he was one of the most effective modern era presidents in the area of foreign affairs.
Whatever else Nixon did, he is primarily remembered for his dealings with China ("only Nixon can go to China"). I have already posted my reservations about China, although establishing relations with China is clearly an understandable position.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Nixon was a lying crook. He obstructed justice and he had a suspicious personality that trusted no one. However, as a President he accomplished some outstanding things. To wit:
1. He opened relations with China. Even today he is the most revered American in that country.
2. He concluded the Berlin Accord of September, 1971, that ended the Berlin Crisis that had gone on since 1945.
3. He concluded the ABM Treaty with the Soviet Union, the first arms limitation of any kind between the two.
4. He instituted revenue sharing with cities, a lilberal program if there ever was one.
5. He instituted the first Affirmative Action Program.
That is not a bad record for an otherwide deceitful man.
He also created our environmental laws, endangered species laws and the EPA.
Can you tell me more about #2? I was under the impression that travel between the two Berlins was OK before 1961, and then the wall impeded it until 1989.
As for #5, nobody should be revered for creating our first Affirmative Discrimination law.
The Berlin Accord of 1971 is, for some strange reason, absent from the history books, yet was a very important agreement during the Cold War.
1. Both the US and USSR agreed to keep the traffic flowing freely in and out of Berlin.
2. West Berliners would be given West German passports, but they would be given special stamps to show them to be citizens of that divided city.
3. West German activity could continue in West Berlin. Before the Russians insisted that WB and WG were two dinstict separate units. By this they were unofficially admitting that they were indeed connected.
4. The Russians could open a consulate in West Berlin, but be responsible to the allied powers rather that the West Berlin government.
Now you know more about this than almost all American US History teachers.
I believe former West Berlin mayor, and then-West German Chancelor Willie Brandt, received a lot of credit for the accord's passage. and as it turns out, the Russians and East Germans had to feel pretty secure that the West Germans and U.S. weren't pulling a fast one, since Brandt's No. 2 aide was revealed about 15 years later to be an East German spy.
I'd like to think that after German reunification that rotten spy was executed, but Germany doesn't have the death penalty. He probably escaped to North Korea or Cuba, or some other Communist paradise.
Dude: I think even some apologist Clintonites would like to know how that could come about. We might learn something about human anatomy, or maybe dead men do tell tales of a sort.
Fred, for a old guy, about to be retarded, opps I mean retired, you are ok. Enjoyed the day with you a couple of weeks ago
Why are you deriding all youth based on my words alone just because I'm part of some group? Why did you choose youth as your group and not something else? This kind of stereotyping helps NO ONE and harms EVERYONE.
Anyway, Congress didn't give a damn about the perjury, they needed an excuse, and this whole investigation was it. Bill Clinton had no reason to testify about this matter, and shouldn't have been forced to.
You might consider me an anarchist, but it isn't immoral to violate an unjust law, and testifying about things which are nobody's business but your own, is an unjust law, although perjury itself isn't.
In NY, it's legal to lie on a form when the question comes up whether you've been in jail in the past. It should be legal to lie when a court asks questions that shouldn't be asked.
And BTW, while I would encourage disregard of unjust laws, I wouldn't discourage the government's right to prosecute them.
In the words of a great philosopher (with the initials AB): It's not called cheating if you don't get caught. I would add it's not cheating if you don't get caught and hurt nobody else in the process. Who did Clinton hurt by lying about his sexual relations?
Well, I wouldn't put it exactly that way. I mean, cheating is cheating, caught or not. But your main point holds true as far as I'm concerned.
Bill Clinton was guilty of marital infidelity and of leading a naive girl on, not by any means a federal, impeachable crime. If his lies were even a crime at all, they deserved at most some kind of censure. There were a million ways Congress could have punnished him. The Republicans wouldn't hear of settling for anything short of impeachment. Impeachment! For lying about sex!
That whole hoopla had nothing to do with justice. This was all about political interests. This was a party who felt that a Democrat had no right to the presidency, and went after him with EXTREME prejudice.
There are far, far worse things presidents have done and completely gotten away with. Reagan and Bush, Sr. were involved with selling arms to Iran--one of our greatest enemies during the 1980's! That is nothing short of treason. Both guys got off scott free! And somehow Ollie North considers himself a hero!
Ugh!
Andrew
Maybe Clinton will be indicted and we can see for ourselves in openb court just what he did and how serious it is. Frankly, I hope he is found not guilty, but I would like him to have to face the music. He paid nothing for what he done, and he should pay some price. Of course, I am biased. I admit that. I despise Clinton.
I'd really like to see us move off this nonsense - Clinton doesn't have motors, compressors, brake shoes or pickup shoes. He paid a TERRIBLE price for his indiscretions - a person who could have gone down in history as one of our better presidents now goes down as one of our worst - all because of a continuing witch hunt by the repubs.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they DO go after him for this only to have it thrown back in their faces as double-jeopardy since he was already "convicted" by the repubs on these charges and voted "not guilty" as the outcome.
But rest assured that as a result of this national disgrace (I mean the impeachment itself since it had NOTHING to do with TREASON) will have ALL of us watching Shrub and his kids VERY carefully, waiting for the opportunity to bring his butt up on charges and do the very same thing to him. Watch ... what comes around goes around, especially in politics. Gonna be one hell of a four years ahead, especially after the Supreme court's coup d'etat ...
If you think it was just a witch-hunt, then not talking about trains may not be your biggest problem. There were some pretty serious issues that arose out of the Monica Lewinsky incidents and they weren't as petty as a stained blue dress or a stained blue carpet.
You have the issue of the president of this nation lying under oath.
You have the president of this nation conducting foreign policy, usually a secret, if not top secret matter, with a female with no security clearance, with her lips locked around his - well you get the picture. He was hardly giving full attention to his duties.
You have a president committing acts of war in hopes of derailing the investigation into his libido-driven activities.
Finally, you have a president of this nation, accused of sexually harassing a second woman and possibly raping a third.
Now if you call this a witch-hunt I'd like to know what your standards are for a legitimate investigation. And if as you say, you'll be watching the new president very closely, for an opportunity to even the score, what does that say about your sense of honesty and fair play. To put it simply, Mr. Clinton was and is likely a sexual predator and a bum. Would 'getting' George W. Bush make Mr. Clinton's behavior any less abhorrant?
It WAS a witch hunt ... they were after Bubba for "travel gate," "flowers gate" (he confessed to that one) and of course a string of so-called corpses ... despite over 65 million dollars in special prosecutor charges, they never DID get Bill or Hill on any of it. So what did it all come down to?
Now with that as a standard, shouldn't we go after Eisenhower and his mistress or George H W Bush senior and HIS mistress? And what about Jane Wyman. Please ... JFK got some lip lock with Marilyn Monroe. And I'm sure she heard some things she shouldn't either.
Bottom line ... I'd MUCH rather the president be doing it to an intern than doing it to *US* ... n'est ce pas?
Times change. The standards for politicians and their sex lives in Washington changes forever back in 1975, when Wilbur Mills got caught in the Tidal Basin pool with stripper Fanne Foxe. The press had just come off Watergate, Mills was a powerful southern Democrat who chaired the House Ways and Means committee who wasn't well-liked by the press, and they just took it and ran. Since then the level of scrutiny of politicians private lives has grown and grown, through the Gary Hart-Donna Rice incident in 1988 to Clinton's ongoing troubles.
Clinton's problem was while he apparently wanted to emulate JFK in every way, times have changed and you can't expect to be running around doing these things and have someone like Ben Bradlee know about it but look the other direction, not in the era of 24 hour news channels and the Internet.
Is it a better system? Maybe not, but that's the way it is and anyone elected president in the future is going to have to live by those rules. People may not be shocked in 2004 or 2008 if some other candidate has just as wild a sex life as Clinton, but the candidate has to realize any actions like that are going to become part of the public record.
Young sir, if that's what you really believe, well, you have a problem.
If you find someone's opinions objectionable and simplistic, why do you have to assume they're young? Especially when they're NOT!
Pork, now you've overstepped the line. I'm 60, a young 60 I hope, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that all of you guys I've been exchanging threads with are under 60. That makes you younger than me. Don't knock it, I'd love to be 30 again. BTW, in my opinion, the 30's are the best age group for a person to be.
If the Americans keep on voting Republican, We will be right back IN the thirties (the 1930's)
Back in the 30s? You mean Bush is going to rebuild all the Manhattan and Brooklyn els? Sounds like a plan to me :-)
I agree about the 30s thing.
The best time runs from 25 to about 39. 25 is the year when punitive youth auto insurance rates end, so the last shackle of youth falls off.
At 40 or later, the shackles of age begin to lock in.
That is so true.
Peace,
ANDEE
Shackles of age, eh? I just got back for my 4.5 mile run, but you just ruined it for me. Those damn shackles.
You fight those shackles and they can't chain you down!
Good for You, Fred!!!
thats telling him !!!
Yea, I think selkirkTMO is around 45 yo, right?
Peace,
ANDEE
CLose enough ... 50 ... and LOVING it. :)
Just be careful and watch yourself. Get checkups and keep in touch with your doctor. The 50's are a critical decade and they can go either way.
I'm not so worried ... I live out in farm land, work for a software company with a good health plan and stress is nonexistent out here - as long as I avoid politicos and other gasbags. :)
But it was okay to do it with Clarance Thomas?
Wel said. Clinton is, according to George Will, not the worst President we've ever had, just the worst man to be President.
Coup d'etat my ass. The Florida Supreme Court tried to change the rules of the laws of the state AFTER the fact. In fact, they were warned by the US Supreme Court to abide by their own constitution and ignored what the USSC told them. They got what they deserved. In fact, the CJ of the FSC who voted against the majority said his colleagues violated the law and warned them the USSC would overturn what they had done. You can check it out.
"Who did Clinton hurt by lying about his sexual relations? "
Well, for one he hurt the woman who was suing him at the time.
She had brought forth a claim that Clinton had abused his power and sexually harassed her while Governor of Arkansas. His truthful testimony about his relationship with Lewinsky would have given credence to her story that he had established a pattern of abuse towards subordinates. (Most "women's advocates" would argue that a sexual relationship between the male president of an organization and a 24-year old female intern could not possibly be consensual -- unless you are talking about Clinton and Lewinsky, then they go hide).
Despite the perjury and obstruction charges -- which were pretty well grounded factually -- the vote essentially became a vote on whether Clinton's conduct was worthy of removal from office. From that perspective, the hypocrisy on both sides of the aisle is quite obvious.
The Democrats overwhelmingly voted for acquital, despite long being champions of sexual harrasment laws and the women's movement and also voting overwhelmingly not to confirm Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court based on sexual harrassment charges far more timid and far less substantiated than those against Clinton.
The Republicans, on the other hand, were so over-zealous in their desire to remove Clinton that they forgot to look at themselves. Rather than allowing the facts to be the facts and allowing the public to form it's own opinion over time, the Republicans tried to push the issue and got caught with their own pants down.
CG
"Who did Clinton hurt by lying about his sexual relations? "
He hurt you, he hurt me, he hurt most people in this country. He degraded the office of the presidency of this nation - he did it in front of the entire world. But let's not forget he also thought it would be a trip to conduct official foreign policy business while monica lewinsky was smoking the peace-pipe. He also committed an act of war to try to derail the investigation. Yeah, i'd say he did some damage.
I'm not one of those people who considers sex to be dirty and that our leaders don't need it. He crashed through this country's horrible puritanical streak and shocked the Neo-Victorians that have no place in our modern society.
Hopefully Neo-Victorianism will be countered in the next date, which I hope will be called "The Naughties" (naught is a chiefly British word for zero).
Frankly I don't care about his sexual proclivities. In fact, since hilly and Janet fdo absolutely nothing for me, I don't really blame him for what he did. What I object to when and where and what he was doing while and then what he did to cover it up.
Hey, Train Dude, I'll see to it PERSONALLY, that Bill Clinton pay your therapist for damages done you...;-)
BMTman
Hope he's got major medical. I can see myself spending much time on the couch - especially this wekend. I've already called in 'sick' for Sunday.
Well, you can always call in 'sick' for another Official SubTalk Sickout and join the elite 'SubTalk Sickos' for an outing...time and date To Be Announced...;-)
BMTman
Now how did I know that you would enter into this argument. Tell me about the last Clinton fundraiser you attended. Just a joke.
Assault with a lively weapon!
avid
Because lying under oath and perjury is illegal and subject to punishment under the Constitiution. You're not an ararchist, but you do seem to have a case of the shorts when it comes to understanding what is permissible under the Constitution and what is not.
The Constitution says nothing about what is and isn't a crime. The President can be impeached for "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors."
Except for treason and bribery, high crimes and misdemeanors would be defined by law. Not once is perjury mentioned in the Constitution.
The irony of the entire thing is the two laws Clinton pushed during his first term -- extension of the independent counsel law (which Republicans opposed since it had been used only against them) and the sexual harrassment law -- were the ones that ended up causing this whole thing.
No sexual harrassment law, no Paul Jones lawsuit as to whether or not then-Governor Clinton did or did not take out "Mr. Winkie" in that hotel room in Arkansas. No Paula Jones suit, and there would have been no 1998 deposition in which he was asked about Monica Lewinsky. And if Clinton had gone along with the Republicans and tossed out the special prosecutor law (which Ken Starr opposed, BTW), then it would have been up to Janet Reno herself to decide whether or not to investigate the Lewinsky/perjury matter, instead of handing the hot potato off to Starr's office the way she did. And the odds are an internal Justice Department investigation would have gone far better for the president than the one Starr and Ray have conducted.
>>>The irony of the entire thing is the two laws Clinton pushed during his first term -- extension of the independent counsel law
(which Republicans opposed since it had been used only against them)
Ahh - yes! A double irony indeed!
-cordially,
turnstiles
As for Columbine, the primary reason for it occuring is the fact that these students were IMPRISONED by the school system.
Many people feel horrible about their high prison school environment, the only difference is that these people were disturbed on another level, and those two forces came together that fateful day.
Instead of a real examination of the problems facing the students which are marginalized until they lash out (and some in horrible ways), there was a growth of zero tolerance policies and other injustices that only put salt on the wounds and also hurt people who aren't menaces to society.
When what defines human decency is blurred, what is right becomes the first casualty, at the cost of what is wrong.
You've got it backward. The primary reason was that these people were disturbed. That they may have felt imprisoned by the school system can only be a secondary cause at best, given that (apparently) so many other students feel imprisoned by the system.
I didn't get it backwards only because I didn't provide an order. They were both disturbed and oppressed. Others are just oppressed and nothing happens.
Imprisoned? As a high school teacher that really ticks me off. Most teachers I know are warm and dedicated people who want the best for their students----at least so they avoid the same mistakes we might have made during our youthful careless forays in our distant past. What you said is just wrong.
Yeah teachers are in it for the money right, maybe tops 50K per year, to take all the verbal abuse and physical abuse, and paying for things out of their own pockets. Tell him Fred
I have no idea why the message I posted in response to this is gone.
Teachers are not the problem.
People are forced to go to school against their will, and to be "taught" in a system designed for an industrial society when we live in a technological one.
People are arrested for being on the street when they are supposed to be in school, like some escaped convict. People who have special needs are ignored, those above average are forced into slow classes where they lose interest and become bored and waste their time. Those below average (and there is NOTHING wrong with that) can't possibly keep up and always fail. Some resort to humor to get the respect of their classmates and end up being derided by teachers for their clownlike approach to their studies. Then there are those who have no sense of humor and resort to violence to assert their superiority over those "nerds." In High School either you have people who will drop out or who will go to College. A HS diploma is worth as much as a square of toilet paper. One learns skills that will never be used in the real world or in further education (because there isn't any) or ends up re-learning it in College.
Particularly in the final two years of High School, people are developed adults, yet are segregated into the same prisons and are limited in the work that they can attain and learn nothing of consequence. Ever noticed how state requirements for many subjects drop off after 3 years leaving one's senior year to useless electives? It would make a lot more sense to go to college, or to learn something from the REAL WORLD.
Imprisoned? As a high school teacher that really ticks me off. Most teachers I know are warm and dedicated people who want the best for their students----at least so they avoid the same mistakes we might have made during our youthful careless forays in our distant past. What you said is just wrong.
Teachers aren't the problem. It's being forced against one's will into a system with incompatible people (is everybody the same just because they were all born in the same year?) into something that was designed for an industrial society, when we live in a technological one.
If you made careless mistakes, did they adversely affect your future life, or are they just something that happened and you learned from?
Slave dealers must go. Bush had Zero deny ability! He stood by his decision for her publicly. So He codonnes her criminal activity of harboring , housing and aiding an illegal alien. Law and new order my ass. I'm sure behind closed doors she was told to walk. Now for the other slave trader Christy Witman. Environment, Ha, thats a joke. We'll see who she protects! It won't be drinking water or air for breathing. It'll be profits for taking!
avid
Damn that Christie todd Whitman! I now understand why Al Sharpton is so determined to short-circuit her nomination. She has privately stated that her first order of business will be to spend whatever it takes to clean up that toxic mess that holds Sharpton's hair down.
That would be EPA's greatest accomplishment
You guys are horrible!
Hey don't worry about it -- there isn't enough money in the EPA's Superfund toxic site cleanup program to ever get this job done :-)
She DID say that according to the Associated Press ... and we know we can trust them, right?
You guys are horrible---but please keep doing it. I'm having a laugh at that rotten racist's expense.
If they did accomplish that task , how could anyone tell him and Don King apart?
avid
Both are rotund men.
Both con-men.
Both have huge mouths.
Perhaps they are related.
Perhaps they are the same person.
[Both are rotund men.
Both con-men.
Both have huge mouths.
Perhaps they are related.
Perhaps they are the same person.]
Hey -- I think you've just described Rush Limbaugh! (could he be related to Big Al, too?)
BMTman
You know ... the two have never been seen in the same place at the same time ... like Superman and Clark Kent. I'm sure Seinfeld already did this one though. :)
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh GREAT! A new comedy team is born. Ladies and Gents the comedy stylings of the TMO/BMT Men!
Peace,
ANDEE
Every T/O needs a TMO ... how else will they know it's time to close the doors and LEAVE? Some jokes just write themselves ya know. Sorta like Shrub attending an intelligence briefing.
You could tell them apart by scraping them off the wall and check DNA for positive proof. Even then there might be a problem.
What I find interesting are the comments about Ms. Chavez by Senator Ted Kennedy. He has serious qiestions about her integrity because she did/didn't hire one illegal alien.
Let's not forget it wasteddy the swimmer who let mary-Jo Copeckney drown in his car, taking whatever secrets she had with her.
It was Senator ted who paid untold sums of money to the Copeckney family to keep the details of their daughter's autopsey from the public.
it was also Senator Ted who had nothing to say when our sleeze-ball president was jamming his manhood down the throat of monica lewinsky while conducting foreign policy business over the phone.
Finally, it was teddy the lush (who can't say that he hasn't had a drink in 14 years) who had nothing to say when slick willy bombed an asperin factory in an attempt to deflect the runaway impeachment train.
And this is the same senator teddy who has serious doubts about ms. Chavez's integrity. Have the democrats no shame.
Not Teddy, that fat out of shape rump pot. He has no shame whatsoever. But, then again, neither do the Democrats. Robert Byrd said he was guilty as sin but voted not guilty at the impeachment trial. What the hell kind of logic is that? Loserman "condemned" him by saying nothing should happen to him, however. What crap.
So when is whats-her-name going to be carted off to prison for violating INS laws now that she's stepped down? Let's see the Law & Order party demonstrate that they actually stand behind their rhetoric. Send her down to Texas and give her the flu shot ...
Since this whole thread is really really off topic and the death march in Shrub's state is done with chemicals instead of third rail current, can't think of a single way to bring this one back on thread. At least here in NYS, we can strap them to the front of a 40M and check the antirisers ...
Let's not forget it was teddy the swimmer who let mary-Jo Copeckney drown in his car, taking whatever secrets she had with her.
It was Senator ted who paid untold sums of money to the Copeckney family to keep the details of their daughter's autopsey from the public.
That was never proven.
it was also Senator Ted who had nothing to say when our sleeze-ball president was jamming his manhood down the throat of monica lewinsky while conducting foreign policy business over the phone.
It is none of the country's business how the president chooses to satisfy himself.
Finally, it was teddy the lush (who can't say that he hasn't had a drink in 14 years) who had nothing to say when slick willy bombed an asperin factory in an attempt to deflect the runaway impeachment train.
So what? If the factory wasn't sometimes used to make explosives, it was an honest mistake in an attempt to destroy Osama Bin-Laden. Just like the accidental bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. War comes with innocent casualties.
I notice that you didn't respond to the part about clinton knocking holes in the back of monica's head ( from the inside) and teddy the swiller not having anything to say about it.
I'm sure that Ted Kennedy secretly wished it was him getting the job.
I understand that Bill Clinton ALWAYS did it doggy style. He'd sit up and beg and hilly would roll over.
We call that foreplay.
avid
Well, I think Pork didn't want to mention Nixon's indescretions with Checkers...;-)
BMTman
What have you been smoking after school? The reason for low unemployment is not the illegal aliens. They're not part of the equation. Point is, if not for the illegal aliens, there could be more entry-level jobs available to welfare recipients. Illegals get taken advantage of in that they do the jobs teenagers and journeymen would do, such as landscaping, janatorial, and child care. If legal citizens were willing to take these jobs, unemployment would be lower, as would persons dependent upon government assistance.
-Hank
There's no black and white answer to it. While it's true there are many jobs illegals take -- such as housekeepers -- that could go to entry level workers or people trying to get off welfare -- there are a lot of others, especially in the agricultural field, that have to be filled by undocumented workers, because of the back-breaking labor and poor conditions involved (better than when Rachel Carson's "Silent Spring" came out 40 years ago, but it's still going to be 110 degrees in the Coachella Valley and other places in California and the southwest when crops need to be picked).
Raise the salaries substatially and you probably could get legal U.S. citizens to brave the pesticide-covered fields, but you would also be looking at either fruit and vegtable prices spiking sharply upward or U.S. farms losing out to foreign produce, where the pay and working conditions are a lot worse. It would be nice if there was an easy answer to the problem, but unless you unionized the entire world to force pay scales up, it isn't going to happen.
There's no black and white answer to it. While it's true there are many jobs illegals take -- such as housekeepers -- that could go to entry level workers or people trying to get off welfare -- there are a lot of others, especially in the agricultural field, that have to be filled by undocumented workers, because of the back-breaking labor and poor conditions involved (better than when Rachel Carson's "Silent Spring" came out 40 years ago, but it's still going to be 110 degrees in the Coachella Valley and other places in California and the southwest when crops need to be picked).
As is so often the case, NYC is (or may be) different. There's some evidence that immigrants, whether documented or otherwise, occupy many of the entry-level retail and food service jobs that elsewhere are held mainly by teenagers. Whether this is good or bad is a matter for debate. Immigrants are able to find starting places on the economic ladder, while on the other hand city teens don't get the job experience that's largely taken for granted by their suburban counterparts.
It would be nice if there was an easy answer to the problem, but unless you unionized the entire world to force pay scales up, it isn't going to happen.
Tariffs. Duties would be charged on imports to make up for the crappier conditions of workers outside the US. Tariffs would be different for each country because every country is different. America has gained nothing from NAFTA. We can have a NAFTA with Canada and Europe (NA would mean North Atlantic like NATO), but Mexico should be left out.
Tarrifs tend to breed retalitory tarrifs -- remeber Al Gore holding up the pictures of Mr. Smoot and Mr. Hawley during his debate against Ross Perot over NAFTA on "Larry King Live" seven years ago? Congress and the Hoover administration went with high tarrifs after the stock market crash of 1929 and Smoot-Hawley only served to deepen the depression because nobody could afford to trade with anybody else because of the import surtaxes.
We're already in a dispute with the Eurpoean Union over tarrifs they want put on U.S. beef imports, while Japan's reliance of setting high tarrifs on the importing of U.S. produce and other goods has helped create the high-price stagnation that country has experienced for the last decade (though it seemed like a great idea for them up until about the middle of 1989).
Union strength ebbs and flows -- back in the post-WWII period, when importing goods was either impossible or less practical, unions were dealing from postiions of strength because the U.S. consumption had to come from U.S. production. That collapsed in the late 1970s with the Japanese onslaught and right now, unless you're part of a union that requires very specific and domestic skills (i.e. - major league baseball players), the unions are operating from a position of overall weakness. They and people like Perot, Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan think raising tarrifs will solve that problem, but what it really will take is the spread of democracy in foreign countries (including Mexico) to remove the low-wage or slave labor conditions and turn those countires populations into consumers who can band together to demand higher wages to buy the goods they need.
Union strength ebbs and flows -- back in the post-WWII period, when importing goods was either impossible or less practical, unions were dealing from postiions of strength because the U.S. consumption had to come from U.S. production. That collapsed in the late 1970s with the Japanese onslaught and right now, unless you're part of a union that requires very specific and domestic skills (i.e. - major league baseball players), the unions are operating from a position of overall weakness.
Union weakness is mainly limited to the private sector. Things are quite different in the government sector (including, of course, transit), which for these purposes includes the government-subsidized health care and social-service fields. Unions in these areas remain quite strong. Lack of foreign competition is obviously a main reason, as well as the prevalence of Baumol's Disease (the tendency of fields with little room for productivity increases to gravitate toward the government sector).
My point is Illegals let us have low unemployment and low inflation together. Because of hi demand for labour American workers can demand and recieve higher wages which drives up costs and therefore prives. It also drives up demand (more disposable income) and can reduce time devoted to work which also add to inflation. Illegal workers will accept near or below minimum wages. Instead of having to pay an American a huge sum to do an unpleasent job (because many nicer jobs pay more) they can get a Mexican to go it for peanuts. This way we can have maximum employment of American workers and still keep costs low to fight inflation. The basic point is we need workers NOW! A ack of warm bodies will send us into recession.
My point is Illegals let us have low unemployment and low inflation together. Because of hi demand for labour American workers can demand and recieve higher wages which drives up costs and therefore prives. It also drives up demand (more disposable income) and can reduce time devoted to work which also add to inflation. Illegal workers will accept near or below minimum wages. Instead of having to pay an American a huge sum to do an unpleasent job (because many nicer jobs pay more) they can get a Mexican to go it for peanuts. This way we can have maximum employment of American workers and still keep costs low to fight inflation. The basic point is we need workers NOW! A ack of warm bodies will send us into recession.
Illegal immigration has little if any responsibility for the nation's high employment/low inflation paradox. Economists are still trying to figure out why this condition can exist. As best can be determined, technology-related improvements in productivity are the main reason, although no one's completely sure.
My guess is that if illegal immigration were stopped, or drastically curtailed, we'd see no huge increase in salaries - and inflation - as citizens and legal immigrants rushed into the jobs formerly filled by illegals. What instead would happen is that many of the jobs simply wouldn't be filled. Some of the jobs done by illegals, such as agricultural harvesting, are indispensible, but others are things we can live without.
I agree, increased productivity due to technology is the secret. Meat packing and agriculture are jobs which require low wage workers (I don't like it but it's true) When the maquiladoras begin unionizing in a generation or so and the REAL benefits of NAFTA kick in for the average Mexican, we will face a real problem in that these workers will stay at home to work in a factory for a family wage(GOOD FOR THEM!!!) but, hopefully a technological solution is forthcoming for industries who use low wage workers.
Chavez and the Guatamalean woman apparently are at odds over when the woman told her about her illegal status -- the woman says it was three months after they met, Chavez says a year.
While Chavez doesn't have the same IRS problems as Zoe Baird (remember her?) did with her illegal alien nanny, the conflict here is probably enough to sink her nomination, unless she can document her side of the story. This may be bad for Chavez, but in the long run it probably helps Ashcroft, since the press is drawn to wounded nominees -- Republican or Democrat -- like a shark to blood. The focus will be on Chavez' nomination, and while Ashcroft won't sail through, the critcism will be more muted and/or less covered by the press if Chavez in going down in flames at the same time.
Also, Christine Todd Whitman apparently has the same illegal problem, but it's unlikely to affect her nomination to head EPA, since that was revealed during the Baird confirmation dispute in 1993, and she's been elected New Jersey governor twice since then.
What will be interesting to see, as far as sticking to the topic of this board in concerned, is what type of treatment within the Bush White House awaits Norman Minetta as Transportation Secretary, since he'll be the lone Democrat in a top spot (excluding Louie Freeh at FBI and George Tenet at the CIA).
Damn, I think Bush is an idiot and also disagree with most of his appointments, but he did give up drinking before I was born, so calling him a drunk is an exaggeration of the facts. Me however...
Are you sure you want to start an another off-topic thread, especially this one? Of course then we'd have to talk about Zoe Baerd. We'd have to talk about Vince Forster. We'd have to talk about Jennifer Flowers. We'd, of course, need to talk about Monica Lewinsky. We should also mention Janet Reno and all the prosecutions and investigations she didn't pursue. We'd have to also mention the impending charges against the current presidential letch and his pending disbarment. If I want, I think I can do another 2 - 3 thousand words on the subject from memory, before I have to look back on my copious notes. We are seeing the most morally bancrupt administration ever, finally skulking out of the whitehouse. Let's not start the stone throwing before there is a legitimate target.
[We are seeing the most morally bancrupt administration ever, finally skulking out of the whitehouse.]
Not exactly -- aren't you forgetting "Tricky Dick"?
BMTman
I don't think that you can compare the two. Nixon was guilty of coverig up a criminal break-in. Agnew was guilty of another offense. The Clntons have been guilty of ont thing or another since they were elected. Leave us not forget travelgate or the blue dress. Let's not forget hilly having access to confidential FBI files. And then, of course, we have the mystery of how Vince Foster committed suicide and then moved his own body to the spot where it was found. I think you'd have to admit that Nixon left the rug in the Oval Office cleaner that Clinton will. That rug would be a forensic's expert's lifes work - identifying all the DNA stains.
Yeah, except for the minor detail of Nixon actually having committed a felony. Clinton lied to and cheated on his wife, he redefined what constitutes sexual relations (and ask any normal teenager today what they think of fellatio), engaged in cronyism (what politician doesn't?) and narrowly escaped scandals that, while maybe MORALLY abhorrent, were of no real consequence to the citizenry, but as of yet has not been accused of committing an actual crime, AFAIK.
Of course, someone with my email address shouldn't be talking.
-Hank
Nixon wins the award for the most corrupt president, but Clinton has seized RN's crown as the nation's funniest president in history, achieving a feat similar to Baltimore's Cal Ripken in breaking the record held by Lou Gherig which was thought would last forever.
And while much of Nixon's incidents that became a source of ridicule occured in the 20 years before he became president (the Checkers speech in 1952 and "You won't have Dick Nixon to kick around anymore" after the `62 California gobernatorial election) Clinton achieved all but one of his acts worthy of parody between January of 1992, when he bgean running for office, and the end of 2000, when he rescinded his own five-year ban on administration officials becoming lobbyists. Outraguos to many Republicans, but funny that he would have the huevos to do it just as he's leaving office.
An astonishing record of laughs in such a short period. Clearly, Bush will have to do better than just mangling the English language for the next four years like his dad to top it. Like the NBA trying to find another Michael Jordan, the bar has been raised so much higher.
Gotta take a longer view on all this - for the last 8 years, it has been nothing but Republican whining and conspiracy theories, black helicopters and the spread of the "new world order" ... a term frequently used by Hitler, laid at the feet of President Bubba. Of course everyone forgets that it was Ronnie and King George I that were always had "God Bless America and the New World Order" in every speech of theirs at the end.
So now we have Shrub in the Oval Office - it's the other side's turn now to whine while we revert to the ever so cool 80's once again. The repubs now have to revel in their holdings and put up with the whining just like we had to put up with theirs ... only difference is we won't have as much money in our pockets as we had gotten used to and there's no really good music like there was in the 80's.
Invest heavily in tomorrow's growth stocks - guns, tobacco and booze. These are republican times after all. Nobody's going to get laid. :)
LOL!!
BMTman
Of course, you're trying to tell me Billy Boy is without sin, and a paragon of virtue. Are you really trying to have us buy that? Remember, Republicans turned on Nixon when they realized he was a sleeze, but your boys have stuck with that no-good draft dodging pot smoking philandering SOB until the very end. I haven't heard of such loyalty since the Third Reich. Remember, the German people stuck with Hitler until the bitter end. Have you Deimwitocrats not a modicum of shame in your bones?
Yes we do.
That's why nobody is going to decry Clinton's desire to go to College and not fight in a senseless war, his desire to smoke something that has no right to be illegal, and his desire for sexual satisfaction that is NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS just because the oh so wonderful forces of Republicans are forcing them to.
Just remember - these are republican times and nobody's gonna get any. And WE and LARRY FLYNT will be peering through ALL of their bedroom windows just to make SURE they ain't getting any. After all, they've set the standards. :)
14 years ago Dubya got cut off for drinking. So he went after the Oval Office to get him some. Why do you think he had the supreme cout go to bat for him?
avid
Oh, you kids! You're really off the deep end. Oh well, politics will do that to us. I still think you guys are all wet, but your opinions count, too. Good day.
I suspect that a lot of presidents have commited acts no better than the Clinton administration. It's just that Clinton had a Republican congress that was litterally out to get him.
A hundred Monica Lewinskys couldn't equal the act of treason Bush, Sr. got away with. I mean, what could be worse that selling arms to our enemies? Oh, I get it! It's OK 'cause he's Republican!
Andrew
Good point.
And while we're at it, let's put Clinton's 'zipper problem' in perspective: JFK was getting away with more 'tang in the White House than any other President before or since. Big difference was that he was charismatic, and from a family of prestige and connections. Also, his popularity with the Press prevented alot of his 'hanky-panky' from being publicized.
BMTman
Traindude, you can maul over Janet Reno all you want ! The rest of us will maul over Flowers and Lewinski. See Ya. You can have the Bimbo who taped Lewinskis phone conversations as well. Whatshername again?
avid
Linda Tripp
I always did like my women tall. Now, is she a woman?
If she is, she was either: 1. beaten severely with an Ugly Stick or 2. not really from Planet Earth.
When the Howard County Prosecuter was trying to get her indited for violating Maryland's wiretap law, nobody was really certain if he was really trying to indite her for what she did, or for impersonating a woman. The Grand Jury was impressed for #1, but the court ruled otherwise and quashed the inditement. It did pass for Political Comedy, Maryland style.
Oh, sorry for the confusion. I was referring to janet Reno who's over 6' tall, butt ugly and is reported to be a woman. Linda tripp is shorter, not quite as ugly and I'm pretty certain she's a she.
Between Janet and Linda, I'll take Linda
Well John ,I certainly hope so. If I ever woke up in the middle of the night and was staring at Janet Reno, I'd either faint or have a heart attack. Forgive me God, but she is bad looking.
If I ever woke up in the middle of the night and was staring at Janet Reno
THAT would be an A1; First Class; One Hellofa Nightmare.
Lay off the beer and Italian Sausage (hot) sandwich right before beddy-bye.
And the sweets. One of my students told me why I had a bad dream last night, a violent one at that. She told me if you have sweets before you go to bed, you will have bad dreams. I'm sold. Can you imagine having a Janet Reno or Hillary nightmare. That would freeze me for eternity.
Beer, Hell Lay off the LSD--- BAD TRIP,MAN. As for Italian Sausage IT'S GOOD FOR YOU, EAT MORE
Yeah, but not right before beddy-bye. Causes all sorts of noturnal wierdness.
Janet Reno! Now that;s a fine piece of work, isn't it. But what the hell is it? Democrats have the nerve to tear down Linda Tripp. She a babe next to Reno. Reno is the most pathetic looking excuse for a woman I have ever seen, but even worse she was a boot licking, kiss ass AG, and one of the worst this country has ever had.
Your argument about JFK is a weak one. After all, JFK was a democrat too. Now if you raised the issue of Ike's mistress - now there's something to chew over.
Aw, dude they all had'em Rep or Dem -- All have mistresses If the Lewinsky affair had happened during a Republican Administration, Linda Tripp would have had a car accident. Bye,Linda.
Like Vince Foster? Oh that was a 'suicide', my bad......
That's my point.
To Train Dude: I was merely using JFK as an extreme example (even though he and Bubba are both from the same party). The party doesn't matter as much as whether it's a Dem or Rep having a 'party of two' with their pants down is not uncommon (valor?) in regards to the Whitehouse...;-)
BMTman
What's Ted Kennedy's favorite movie?
Dude, where's my car?
-Hank :)
Remember when National Lampoon got in trouble for showing a picture of a VW Beetle (it of the sealed bottom compartment) floating on a lake with the caption "If Ted Kennedy had driven a Volkswagon, he'd be president now." The VW people didn't think it was funny and had the magazine recall copies and pull the parody ad, even if it had the ring of truth to it.
Sorry, I'm not old enough.
-Hank
It was pretty funny, and if I rememeber right, was done by one of the female staffers at the magazine (Mary Jo's revenge, I guess).
You're knocking a Democrat? Whoopie!!!!! I didn't know you had it in you. Congrats. BTW BMT Doug, when Kennedy was President I was a loyal Democrat who really looked up to JFK. I still have soft spot for him. At least he exuded some class. Clinton exudes nothing but some sperm stains on a dress. You can't really repect that man, can you?
Well, in the words of the gipper himself:
"There you go again"
And here we go again. However, if you are interested in habitual drunkeness, extremeism, murder, etc... you might well be advised to look into the past of a certian senator from a northeastern state who I shall only call Teddy K.
I've got it, the perfect couple. Teddy boy and Janet Reno. Wow! Wouldn't they be an item. They could earn a great living together. Ted making his own moonshine booz so he wouldn't have to spend his late father's money, while Janet could earn her keep standing outside her doctor's office making people sick.
You have to stop talking about Janet Reno. Some of us have just eaten you know.
Well, we agree on something. Buono appetit
For those of us in school or even beyond high school and college, this could happen to any of you. Hopefully, it won't.
Last Thursday, I was sick and stayed home from school. I called a classmate who is in all my classes so he could fax me a worksheet and some notes. The kid gave two very poor reasons for not faxing the papers. How I got the work is irrelevant but today, the kid told me if anyone else had called, he would have faxed the stuff but because I liked the Metro, he didn't feel like it. Something that would not happen if I didn't like trains.
Hope this never happens to anyone but as if railfans are ignored as it is and I can think of TA employees who don't like our existance, but common people? Is the world that messed up?
Most kids in my school joke around about it a little. But more often they end up asking for directions, and asking about why this, that, or the other thing happened on the train the other day. No one ever held it against me. The kid you called is one lousy person, but people like that all end up in the same final destination. Remember that whole bible passage about "When I was hungry, you didn't feed me" and the like.
They do the same with me. Over the weekend, there was trackwork on the green and yellow lines which was announced on the Metro web site and on at least one local radio station, and today, a kid asked me what went on because he went on those lines not knowing what would happen (that kid is known for not paying attention). I also love getting the questions that make no sense whatsoever. But the kid not willing to fax the stuff to me is lousy. I am just as good a student as he is and he sees it as his way to make him better than me. I did point out to my advisor his people skills weren't that great as she filled out a reccomendation for the same kid who wouldn't fax me the stuff when I told her about it this afternoon.
This kid fantasizes about Metro Hobos-homeless people who find the money to get on the train and then live there. Knowing this kid, that is what he will be. Or if not that, at least someone commuting by train into work to a job he hates. One advantage to being a railfan is you can work for WMATA.
"commuting by train into work to a job he hates. One advantage to being a railfan is you can work for WMATA. (fast forward 10 years)
2011 you are running an LRV for WMATA some monday morning, really enjoying life, when a familiar face trudges onto your car, you say HI and he just gives you a glassy stare then you tell him I LOVE MY JOB!!! ***REVENGE IS SWEET***
That is what I am waiting for. Or I find him homeless on the Metro and I take the pleasure of kicking him off and sending him to the cold world on the street.
BTW: No LRV viechles at WMATA.
Metro would never allow anyone camping out in their trains. As soon as the train puts up for the night, the bums would get the boot.
BUMS! Can't stand 'em. Dey stinks from da woid "GO".
wayne
The attitude of this kid to the Metro is much like the attitude of some kids to public transit (with the possible exception of Regional Rail) at my old school. Some were more enlightened than others, but many of the teachers were not very enlightened on public transit. I had trouble at that school, not only because I was a railfan, but because I had many beliefs that are different from that the establishment. Thankfully, I go to a much bigger school, which is better, because it is so big that the whole school could not possibly turn against one person, and if one social group has trouble with you, you hang out with another, and even railfans will be accepted (though I don't know of an admitted railfan).
What an ass hole. Get some WD-40 or expanding foam insulation and squirt through the vents in his locker at school. That'll show em.
Are we trying to make matters worse or better here? Knowing the kid and the school, I'd be in really big trouble. The kid would say I contaminated his locker with nuclear waste found on the tracks in a tunnel in Anacostia that some kid who I will not name helped me get and while I was getting this stuff, I was shot 60 times... You see where this is going? If he can decide not to fax homework because I am a railfan, he will make a story to that effect. It is also just plain wrong to retaliate that way, but if that is how you deal with your anger, I am not going to stop you (I won't start with my way).
That's only true if he can prove you pranked his locker. Just be smart and don't get caught.
And the premeditation discussed here?
-Hank
Anything that goes wrong for him is automatically the fault of either me, two other kids who he blames for stuff, or the bus company that takes him (and me, Jersey Mike, don't get started) to school and is a whole lot less reliable than the Metro.
This other student needs counseling. If you were not a railfan , he would have found another reason. You must read the Scriptures for your plan of action or inaction.
When Moses came down from the mount after receiving the Ten Comamandments , he forgot the other two he put in his back pockets. Choose one.
XI Commandment. Thou Shall Not Get Caught!
XII Commandment. Thou Shall Not Get Involved!
Choose Wisely Grasshopper.
avid
This is bad. Where I go to school now, I don't think anyone would have the disrespect to say anything like that. Well, you'll get back at him the day when he has a date with his girlfriend and his parents can't drive him there, and he needs metro directions from you, so you give him directions to Columbia Heights or some place like that.
He is too unsocial to get a girlfriend. Also, I should hope he isn't stupid enough to follow my advice. What I could do is send him for a loop. I could say take the blue line to Virginia instead of yellow, which can add 5 to 10 minutes to the trip most of the time (TRAVEL TIP: From certain stations on the red line early Sunday mornings if you take the first train, it is faster to take the blue line to VA. E-mail me for details!!!)
This sort of stupidity truly makes my blood boil when I hear about it. Somehow, I don't think anybody here would believe me if I were to tell a little bit about some of my experiences being a streetcar and subway fan in school, but I will write anyways just to show exactly how messed up the world can be at times.
I used to get beat up and bullied for it constantly. I will tell about one of the worst experiences I had:
In the fall of 1992 while I was in my last year of grade school, grade 6, we had a school field trip to Roy Thompson Hall to hear the Toronto Symphony Orchestra play. The class had to get downtown on the TTC, so all of us had to walk from the school to Eglinton station to get on the subway. Once everybody had gotten in and had been shepherded to the southbound side of the platform we waited for a train to arrive. When the sound of it could be heard and the reflection of the headlights could be seen on the tunnel wall due to the curve before the station, two of my classmates started trying to push me off the platform onto the track bed. The teacher finally stopped this while there were still a few inches of platform between my heels and the edge, and pulled me back on all the way on to the platform as the front of the train was just starting to enter the switch located before the station begins. Then, the teacher phoned and had someone from the school come down to the station and collect the two people who did this. They got punished - they spent the rest of the day and the next day sitting in detention in the administration office, if you can consider this a punishment, which I don't. Nothing further came of it like every other little incident that happened in that miserable excuse of a school, despite complaints to the incompetent school administration, etc.
I could probably write a small book on what used to happen in grades 3, 4, 5, and 6 because I didn't like sports and I did like the subway and streetcars instead.
Well what those kids did was horrible. Punishment should humiliate the kids, and in fact, a few hours each day at a re-education camp should help. Those kids that almost pushed you in front of the train should be flogged in front of their peers.
So the punishment should be two-fold, humiliation by public flogging in front of his classmates, and re-educated on safety for two hours a day for two weeks.
Flogging (especially with the pants down) always gets my support. Yes, same goes for scratchiti-ers, graffiti-ers, those who beg in extremely-packed rush hour trains, those who hold doors open for friends who haven't even entered inside the fare zone, those who stand with their back to the storm window looking toward rear like a jack*** (I always hate this... cops are excused), etc etc etc.
Re-education? Where have I heard that before.
Anyway, this is the kind of crime that deserves more than a flogging. They should go to the child equivalent of prison (elementary military school).
Oh yeah, one other thing. I was also teased alot in school because I liked science and trains, and hated sports. I was also short, that means you get kicked around even more. And girls treated me like a little boy. (sadly, even grown women seem to have a thing against short men)
School can do more harm than good, because while acedemics are important, learning values, respect, and social skills are just as important, perhaps even more important.
I'm glad those years are behind me, but I still see such "image based" judgement even in the adult world.
Two of your classmates tried to push you off the subway platform when the train was about to come, and ALL they got was detention? Dude, I would have called the police and file an attempted murder charge. You could have been killed. Thank God that you are still around.
Yes, all they got were two days worth of detention each. The administration of that school refused to acknowledge that they had a bullying problem and refused to deal with any of it, period. The fact that those classmates actually got a punishment of some sort was a big execption from the norm. Hell, even most of the teachers in that school teased me about my being interested in the subway and streetcars and they let those kids get away with everything. My grade 6 teacher was the only teacher I had who didn't tease me about it. Believe me, I could never scatch the surface of explaining how terrifying it was having some of your classmates try to push you off of a subway platform while they're being cheered on by even more of your classmates and you can see your toes hanging over the edge as the train was approaching the station and YOU KNOW that they obviously knew what would happen to you when the train arrived and YOU KNOW that what they were doing was deliberate. At the time I was just happy that the teacher was able to run and yank me back on the platform while I still had my heels dug in against the last row of the small checkerboard edge tiles on the plaform, and that the two people who tried to push me off in front of the train at least ended up in the office. I only found out that that was the extent of their punishment several days later when I realised that nothing else was happening to them.
You could have always tried to have them charged with attempted murder. The school isn't going to rock the boat on your behalf... YOU have to do it...
In the fall of 1992 while I was in my last year of grade school, grade 6, we had a school field trip to Roy Thompson Hall to hear the Toronto Symphony Orchestra play.
Not to nitpick too much, but there's no "p" in Roy Thomson Hall. I mention that solely because Roy Thomson was the founder of my employer's parent company.
I think most of the people do not understand the fun of railfanning. They tend to think it is a strange hobby so that they will think of you differently.
If you accept this fact, everything else comes easy. My advice is tell him just give me the damn fax. No need to explain.
However, when you express your intentions, please be humorous because humor can cure a lot of things! :)
Chaohwa
Or, just tell him to give you the fax, or the next time he's on his way to a Redskins game, you'll make his train go into BIE ;).
I'm sorry this had to happen to you. I generally see railfans and subfans get picked on, but good-naturedly, not mailiciously. On a field trip to the 63 St tunnel a few years ago, a classmate of mine who was known to be a hard-core railfan was treated to a chorus of "Hey [name deleted], here come da choo choo" when a G train passed by :). I generally get picked on at work by the heavy-rail fans for being a subway & bus fan.
I wish he would do that. Before this happened, I would have sent him stuff, even though I don't like him. Its a matter of common courtesy and what is right.
My wife doesn't understand what I find so enjoyable about those "dirty old trains". She won't come with me on any railfanning or museum trips. Even when we go to the City, she prefers the bus.
However should she see a train show while channel surfing she'll let me know ... then I have to find ANOTHER TV to watch it on :-)
Tryed to talk her into going to Boston with me last year, but when she found out what I was going there for that was it, even if my friends brought their wives.
This hobby makes me very happy & I don't much care what others think about it. I also am pleased with all the new friends that I've made this past few years.
Mr t__:^)
You should ask Jodi about that :)
-Hank
I can add my own childhood experiences on the subject but for the sake of my emotional well being won't go into details. I admit I took it too far but went thru hell from my peers, down to the point of having to change schools halfway thru my sophomore year. It had gone onabout 9 years then and the same punks hadn't grown up after I cooled it.
It isn't only TA employees [some] who dislike railfans. I had co-workers here in Montana that yelled insulting remarks when they'd see fans taking pictures of trains. Pity that people who earn such good wages hate their jobs so much.
Looking back, I never got any grief from schoolmates for being a subway buff; however, my sister didn't care for my fanatical passion for the NYC subway system after we moved to Jersey.
It seems kinda stupid to switch to the local track at 42nd, then back express after 49th. May as well go straight and let the N get 49th.
I'm thinking about making a day trip to NYC sometime in the spring to railfan the subway. What day of the week would be the best? I was thinking during the weekday because all the lines would be operating, so I can ride the Q, among others. Would rush hour crowds interfere with railfanning? What do you think?
You're in Atlanta, right? It's pretty cold up here right now (I'm originally from north FL). April or May are good, weatherwise. NY is great because most lines run all the time. Just avoid the 4567 and you should get a seat any time.
Any time of year is good - just be sure to check the weather web sites before you begin your trip. A sunny 35 degree winter day is, IMHO, better that an 85 degree humid summer day. Best months for mild weather are April and May, or September through November. But always check the weather because a day long rain makes railfanning more difficult.
A true railfan ought to experience a New York rush hour at least once. However, weekends are fine because the subways generally run every 10-12 minutes on all major lines, and are still well patronized also.
As long as the wind doesn't blow hard a 35 degree day can be very nice. Put on a coat and a hat, and enjoy yourself (bring a little green to enjoy a bag of roasted nuts or a hot dog with saurkraut during the day).
I'm thinking I'll go for one day during my spring break, or between spring and summer semesters. I've experiened NYC rush hour before, on the Lex. I got on a local at an express stop and I was pressed against the door, and had to get off on the other side at the next stop. It was fun. The last time I was there it was the weekend, not really crowded. I want to come to NYC to ride more of the IND and BMT, since I've ridden all of the IRT lines and only a few of B divsion lines. I really want to ride the Brighton express, just because of how everybody says how fast it is, and it only runs during the week, right?
Yes, the Q is a weekday-only service.
It is the SUBWAY for goodness sake, who needs GOOD weather. Note April 9 to 13th Public school is closed (I'm off the 9th (2nd Day Passover) and 13th (Good Friday), might put in for vacation the other 3 days... Do some railfanning... hmmm...
Sounds like the beginnings of a "Field Trip" ? I'll bet you could get the usual suspects to join you.
Rob, I here the Franklin Shuttle is lovely that time of year ;-)
Mr t
I was thinking to visit N.Y.C.this summer as well,do most lines still have railfan windows ? if not then which ones do ?
A good time to visit New York might be when heypaul is OUT of New York.
:-0
BMTman
LINES WITH RAILFAN WINDOWS:
2-SOME(changes weekly)
4-SOME
5-ALL
6-SOME(changes weekly)
7-ALL
A-SOME
B-SOME-ONLY ON WEEKENDS
C-ALL EXCEPT ONE
E-SOME
G-SOME
J-ALL
L-ALL
M-ALL
N-SOME
Q-ALL
R-SOME
Z-ALL
Peace,
ANDEE
IIRC, you can occasionally get a railfan window on the 3, provided a single R-62A is the lead motor.
You're right, forgot about that
Peace,
ANDEE
Ok.......Now,my friend who works for the T.A. says that taking videos or photos in the subway is not allowed...and that the transit police can take away your camera.......is this true ? i don't need any bright lights to film in the subway so i will not be a safety hazzard to the motormen or passengers,i know that this can interfeer with the operation of the subway.in the 70's you could get a pass which let one film on transit property...a red card i still have it somewhere,do they still issue them ? thanks.
See here:
PHOTOGRAPHY IN THE SUBWAY
Hope it helps
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank you very much.
No problem at all. Enjoy your visit!
Peace,
ANDEE
For great views of the City, even if not at a Storm Window, a couple of musts: Gowanus Canal (take a Hippo on the F over Smith Street); the Flushing line (coming into Manhattan). Most of the elevelated lines are OK too. Then you want to consider some of the great runs, e.g. a Slant 40 on the Brighten, a Red Bird Express on the Lex. or 7th Ave., Central Park West (INDs). If you've ever taken the Franklin Ave. Shuttle BEFORE the work there, you'll be amazied at how it looks now. You could get off the Brighten for it, or take a Red Bird to it, then the Brighten to Coney Island & ride the Wonder Wheel (the cars on the inside are on RAILs you know). Don't forget about PATH, Newark City Subway, & HBLR ... a LRV/PCC vs. subway.
Or if bringing members of the family, use the subway to get there, e.g. Coney Island, Ellis Island, Radio City, Times Square, St. John the Unfinished, North Church, Grant's Tomb, Lincoln Center, etc.
Mr t__:^)
Hey, it would be cool to meet some people from here. I haven't decided what lines to hit yet, but I would like to ride the Franklin shuttle.
The Franklin Shutttle is a neat little train now. And it goes to a beautiful place (Botanical Gardens, which I highly recommend you visit).
NYC sucks. But I can say this cause I've been here for 27 years.
Sketchy details but here it is.
Here's the story from the Daily News. The train was "one of the aging Redbird fleet."
So?? More cries to get the 142's on the road? Get ride of the redbird?
Saftey system worked? C/R did pull his cord when he saw/heard the screams but why was indication passed in the first place?
Did dragging ever get this much press back in the 70's??
In Defense of a Redbird... and Journalism:
How coINCIDENTal to use the phrase "aging Redbird"
in a news report involving a "75" year old woman...
Sure, our Redbird MAY be aging..
..but that woman takes the cake!
I noticed that one of the set of R142's in Unionport yard is programed to display <5>, the only problem was that the destination was listed as Eastchester. I know this is incorrect, it should have displayed Bayschester. I hope they correct that.
No, it was right. Dyre Ave is in the Eastchester section of the Bronx. When the routes were programmed, someone felt it necessary to use the older station names and locations. Hence 241 St - Wakefield instead of just 241 St; Nereid Ave instaed of 238 St; West Farms Square instead of E. Tremont Ave.
Actually, I think they wanted to be more RR-like. Notice how the word name comes first in many stations in Manhattan? (Union sq, Grand Central, etc). The higher numbered 142As actually omit the number name on the digital sign (until 7240 they include it).
A 14-year-old boy was killed by a NJT Pascack Valley Line northbound train in Westwood, Bergen County, around 8 PM Monday, according to a Metro Briefs item in the Times. Circumstances (accident, suicide) were unknown as of the writing. The boy died in the hospital.
The boy was walking on the track alone wearing headphones and the train came up behind him.
Geez ... we had the same thing happen just north of the Selkirk Yards just before Christmas near Voorheesville, NY ... same story. Trespasser, 15 years old, headphones, flattened. It's like the idiots who have their car stereos blasting while driving down a private road with no grade crossing signals wonedring why they got hit by a train.
Simple rule - if you're on the tracks, STOP, LOOK, LISTEN. Better yet, don't be on the property AT ALL ... railroading is dangerous enough when you're paying attention. But having headphones on is nothing more than daring Darwin.
There's people who actually believe that a train in BIE can stop as fast as a car. Darwin will get ya every time.
I know most of the folks who inhabit THIS place have a modicum of brains, but for those friends of yours who are Darwin bait, something you might want to pass along to them about railroad property and trains ... in the business, if we HAVEN'T killed someone with our train yet, we refer to the phenomenon as "greasing the rails" when you hit a person or a vehicle that's in the way. It's a way of preparing yourself for the inevitability of it because if you remain on the railroad, you WILL hit somebody or something at some point in your career. And the term "grease" is quite real in too many cases. All that's left is red-colored lubricant on the rails where a person might have possibly once existed.
TELL your friends never to put themselves on rails at stone level and if they absolutely MUST, never never have sounds playing that can keep you from hearing the 211 horn signals from "real" trains ... 2 long, 2 short AT MINIMUM. Be sure to be in quiet enough surroundings where you can hear the lead motor coming from behind you if you're dumb enough to be on the tracks at all.
When driving, come to a COMPLETE STOP ... then roll down the window and listen ... look BOTH ways because sometimes a train might be "wrong railed" and come from a direction you might NOT be expecting. Even if it's a SINGLE track, be SURE that there isn't another train right behind the one that's just gone through, breezing it in the same block. Rare, but this happens too every now and then since the rule on a crowded railroad can be left to its bare minimum like the glory days of the IRT once you got past the "block block" of "drafting the train behind you" by observing the "half your sight of view" rule.
On a double or more tracked railroad, don't EVER assume that there isn't another train coming on another track in the same or opposite direction that's within the signal's timing. It's not unusual for someone to see the train pass and just go, only to be flattened by another train on the NEXT track. In fact on the subway, this just happened to some poor asshole crossing the express track after a train went by only to be flattened by the local on the next track.
Now I expect you guys here have more brains, but people who AREN'T railfans taunt Darwin every day ... words cannot describe the blood pressure rise when I see folks hit the gas as soon as the ass end of a train blows by but the gates don't come up. There's a reason and way too many have found out the hard way what that is.
Whenever near a railroad of any type, STOP, LOOK, LISTEN. Do NOT move unless you have already kept your head constantly turning to ensure nothing's coming and make certain that your hearing is not imparied in any way by extraneous noises and do not make a move until the latter two are satisfied. I've been lucky. I've never greased anyone. Many union brothers in UTU and BLE haven't been so lucky. No one ever gets over killing someone else with their consist and no matter how much they know it's impossible to stop the train or to get a moron out of the way when the inevitable happens, the operator is NEVER the same since. Worst I've ever done was bent some metal when a brake valve stuck on me during a layup. That was bad enough. A 10-9 would just ruin me. Don't put someone else through that. Tell your homeys.
That's a great posting - trouble is, will anyone but us converted folks read it?
At least I know that, on your train, there's a professional with heart!
It should be posted at every crossing, or maybe played as an almost-silent recording to subliminally affect people.
Very well put, Selkirk.
And as an added comment: thanks to some connections I had the opportunity to be in the cab of a GP-38 (or was it a GP-35) being used in the filming of an Operation Lifesaver special in North Carolina about ten years ago. We struck a mid-'70s Olds Delta 88 that had been placed (minus its gas tank) on the tracks, while we were travelling about 35 mph with three or four cars and a caboose in tow. I NEVER FELT SO MUCH AS A BUMP! We pushed the car a considerable distance before we came to a stop, BIE. The film - taken from the cab window, from a pilot-mounted camera (that actually survived the impact!), and from a couple of other wayside cameras - made for an impressive infomercial.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse:
Quite a memorable experience! Perhaps the MTA or Straphangers could air that sometime.
>>>We struck a mid-'70s Olds Delta 88 that
had been placed (minus its gas tank) on the tracks
The car was minus its gas tank? Was this a movie film shoot, just out of curiosity?
-cordially,
turnstiles
Yes, this was being filmed for an Operation Lifesaver public service program, shown in schools and by some other organizations, that was also aired on North Carolina Public Television. Totally staged, no one in the car, several hundred spectators watching from a safe distance, and my older son and I in the cab along with the engineer and the cameraman. I was ostensibly a reporter that day, helping a friend (who really is a reporter) cover the event for the Raleigh News and Observer. The engineer was a customer of mine at the Hobby Shop, hence I was selected to be the "pool" reporter in the cab.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your participation in this activity is commendable. I am sure you have prevented a fatality (somebody in that audience was listening).
Well, let's hope so. I know it made an impression on my older son (who was about 11 years old at the time), even though he already had it pretty well drilled into him. (Wish it would have had some effect on the speed he prefers to travel, though... all three of our children of driving age have lead feet, and they sure didn't get it from my example... of course, I've almost always driven a big wagon or [now] a minivan, my wife's the one with the Mustang...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We shot one here with the crew of the local NBC affiliate (WNYT13, Albany) where we dusted up an old farm truck ... and yes, unless you were watching out the cab window, you'd never know you had hit something. In our case, it was just the loco, nothing else (an old SD type from the CP D&H railroad - it was going to be surplused anyway). The truck didn't even bend the grabirons on the front.
The train *ALWAYS* wins ...
Just an observation, the R142's make an awful whining sound when pulling out of a station. I'm sure the tech people on the board could give an explaination for it.
Those are the A/C traction motors. You'll hear it on any train that uses them (BART, Washington D.C. etc)
Hi David,
That's what I figured--I don't recall if the AC motors in the set of R38's sound like the R142's, but I'll have to compare...
I miss the R1-9's *sigh*
Marc
I miss those moaning, groaning, grunting, snarling, and hissing beasts as well.
Any word on how the R142's motor noise compares to the Bombardier 01800's on the MBTA Red Line? (Todd?) I actually like that sound a lot; I think it's a lot more distinctive than the typical groan of a subway train. I especially like the way you can hear the motors changing phases as the train decelerates into a station, along with the buzz of the regenerative braking. That AC traction sound is a big reason the 01800's are among my favorite subway cars anywhere.
Just my opinion... Guess it's a matter of taste.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It seems to me the R142s' AC sound is somewhat quieter than the Boston MBTA 1800s. But I've only had one ride on the R-142s, and I was in deep conversation with our friend Pelham Bay Dave, Jr. while his dad ran the train... so I wasn't paying too much attention to the train sounds.
Any word on how the R142's motor noise compares to the Bombardier 01800's on the MBTA Red Line? (Todd?) I actually like that sound a lot; I think it's a lot more distinctive than the typical groan of a subway train
I'm with you all the way on this, Dave! The 01800s have an extremely cool sound...and so do the Breda type 8s. As for the R142s/R142As, their a/c sound is much quieter. But I am really interested to see what the R143s will sound like, since they will be more similar to the 01800s than the R142s as far as length and width are concerned. -Nick
The WMATA (Washington DC Metro) ROHR cars do that regenerative-braking/AC traction whine BEAUTIFULLY!
wayne
Cool! Believe it or not, I have yet to ride the Washington Metro even though I've probably researched it more than any other transit system besides Chicago's. Now that I've been to Philly, Metro is the last major subway system on the East Coast that I haven't ridden on. (I guess I'd have to hit Baltimore as well whenever I get to DC.) I'm looking forward to checking it out, especially the architecture of the stations which were all designed by Harry Weese, a well-known Chicago architect.
BTW, what's a good way to tell the Breda and Rohr cars apart from each other? From the photos I've seen they all look fairly similar.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Towards the end of the car, near the last door, there are no sideways facing seats on the inner side (towards the middle door) on the Bredas.
The new cars coming in will have a new, less 70s and more Naughties color scheme.
>BTW, what's a good way to tell the Breda and Rohr cars apart from >each other? From the photos I've seen they all look fairly similar
If the Breda cars are like the ones in Boston or San Fran they are the ones you can only see in the yard.
also atlanta los angeles etc..
I actually love the noise. It's like the train is singing. As the train pulls out of a station, you'll hear three notes. It kind of sounds like NBC's old station identifier music. Remember. EEEENNNNNNNN BEEEEEEEE SEEEEEEEEEEE! I think I'd better get to bed.
I've been living in Manchester, England for a few months now and have had some fun riding its light rail system, Metrolink, to work. It's brand new and consists of two lines with many more under construction. But there is a weird thing and I've never seen it in any other subway system:
There's a station on the system called Cornbrook. They call it a transfer station. It's the only station on the system where you can do a cross platform tranfer between lines. The catch is that you can't exit the station (except for an emergency exit). Has anyone out there ever heard of a station that is only used for transfers?
In the states, in Secaucus, New Jersey, in the middle of the Meadowlands (swamp), they are building a transfer-only station on the Northeast Corridor, on which run heavy-rail commuter trains. (Or if there is an exit to the outside, there's nothing there to exit to, except possibly bits of rubble which are the remnants of the real Pennsylvania Station.) It's not simply cross-platform -- there will be platforms on different levels, and the lines run perpendicularly. It's set to open in 2003 or 2004 to facilitate transfers between New Jersey Transit commuter lines which serve northern New Jersey, and terminate at Hoboken, and the Newark/New York trains. Also on the NEC, a transfer to an extension of the Newark Airport monorail system is being built near Elizabeth, NJ. It doesn't look like there is anything worth exiting the station for there either. As far as a transfer-only station in a "populated area," I can't think of any.
AFAIK, Secaucus transfer will include an office complex, and road access.
The old Manhattan Transfer, where the PRR third rail from Penn Station ended and engines were changed until Newark opened and the catenary was installed. The H&M also stopped there, and terminated at Park Street (or place?) in Newark, not Penn Station.
"As far as a transfer-only station in a 'populated area,' I can't think of any."
67th Street on the (Chicago) Metra Electric, for interchange on certain off-peak trains between the main line and the South Chicago branch.
There's always the canonical example, Manhattan Transfer.
Manchester Metrolink Photos
-Dave
Caught the Jan 2001 edition at 3:30 yesterday afternoon, actually my daughter taped most of it for me.
TT = Ski Ski & Ferry Ferry (alt to Tapen Z bridge) ... that's the main story line, but:
Acela: a decent amount of film of various train sets in action. Also a long interview & inside shots.
TA Museum: Some footage inside of cars & other exhibits, small clip of the D Types ... old footage of Bus Festival & interviews, with photos of 2969 & 6259 ... Ralph would like them.
Enough so I was glad that I caught it.
Mr t__:^)
See screen captures at the home page.
--Mike
He either didn't mention any transportation improvments, or if he did those ideas never made it to the newspapers.
You know, Larry, New York (C and S) is pretty hopeless when it comes to transit. I didn't fully realize this until I was driving home from Philadelphia with one of my kids and ran into bad traffic on the Belt during a storm. I ended up going north on the Van Wyck and, when I saw the advancing construction of Sky Train, I felt like I was dreaming.
There in front of my eyes, a new rail line was being built! Never mind, it's not as good as a direct line to Penn. Never mind it may not be the technology we want. It was being built! We've gotten so used in New York to trying to scuttle any transit plan that isn't perfect, we don't seem to realize that NOTHING gets built.
Does anybody appreciate that politicians are happy to give us a full-length 4-track Second Avenue Subway on paper instead of a 2-track Stubway in reality? The paper line is much cheaper and keeps hope alive.
And what about the 42nd Street Light Rail. This looked so good for a while that the City Council was ready to do battle with the Mayyuh over the right to designate MORE lines on other streets. But when the objections came in, the politicians were quick to dump all the plans.
I've seen lots of speculation on whether Dubya is bad for transit. All I know is, the Longhorn State has some shiny new light rail and more being planned and built. What's New York got?
I agree with a lot ofyour sentiments, but I really do think a 2nd Av subway can become a reality.
On the other hand, given the tight integration of NYC subwaysin Manhattan, and the traffic jams we already have, I think light rail would be more of a bother than an asset here - and it would divert money from subways. If you put LRT underfround - well, if you're tunnelling anyway, why not build a subway line? In this case, opposition to LRT (in Manhattan) is reasonable.
I understand NJ Transit has had a good experience so far with the Hudson-Bergen LRT - and that's good news.
There are winners in New York, and losers.
Among the winners are the NYC non-profiteers, retired (on or off the job) NYC public employees in Tier I and Tier II, overpaid and overstaffed local governments in the rest of the state, businesses doing business with (and ripping off) state and local government, businesses receiving special tax breaks, those who ran up a nation-leading state and local debt and then moved out, and the formerly middle-income elderly who can transfer assets to their children and (in New York State and almost nowhere else) be entitled to a home health aid, a maid, a personal shopper, a chauffer, etc -- any time one of those who are paid to provide the services says it they are necessary. These are the people who "own" our "representatives."
Among the losers are everyone who will be here in 10 to 15 years paying off that debt, public employees in NYC in Tier 4 who actually work, Black, Latino, and working class children in inadequate schools, those using NYC park and recreation facilities, anyone who doesn't have a special deal to escape New York's high taxes -- especially new, growing businesses. And transportation. The losers do not have representatives in this state.
All the noise is made by the winners, because they have the money to get into the media. The losers are drowned out.
I agree with a lot of your sentiments, but I really do think a 2nd Av subway can become a reality.
On the other hand, given the tight integration of NYC subwaysin Manhattan, and the traffic jams we already have, I think light rail would be more of a bother than an asset here - and it would divert money from subways. If you put LRT underground - well, if you're tunnelling anyway, why not build a subway line? In this case, opposition to LRT (in Manhattan) is reasonable.
I understand NJ Transit has had a good experience so far with the Hudson-Bergen LRT - and that's good news.
Sorry that this is such short notice.
The December 2000 TransTalk, the newsletter of the ITE NY/NJ Metropolitan section, has an article by George Haikalis and Roxanne Warren on their proposal for the 42 St "Auto-Free Light Rail Boulevard." They will also be the featured speakers at the Met section January meeting, Tuesday 1/16, at The Captain's Ketch, 70 Pine Street in Manhattan. Schedule is as follows:
4:00-5:30 PM Executive Board Meeting
5:30-6:00 PM Reception-Open Bar (2 drinks)
6:30-7:30 PM Dinner and Section Business Meeting
7:30-9:00 PM Evening Technical Presentation: Auto-Free Light Rail Boulevard for 42nd Street
The cost is $45 for members, $50 for non-members, and $22.50 for full time students; you must make a reservation by Thursday, January 11 by calling NYC Arrangements Chairperson Mike Salatti at (973) 678-1960 or e-mail m_salatti@gpinet.com.
Indicate your choice of entree with your reservation:
(A)Jumbo shrimp, scallops with crushed tomatoes, garlic, olive oil over linguine
(B)Grilled ribeye steak with garlic shrimp sauce, mashed potatoes, vegetables
(3) Breast of chicken Sorrentino, topped with eggplant, prosciutto, fresh mozzerella, and tomatoes, with mashed potatoes and vegetable.
(Yes, it says A, B, and 3 on the flyer :) ). Sorry to post the whole mess here, but it isn't on their website.
Why the emphasis on 42nd Street, one of the most transit-served streets in the city. I wonder...
If I recall right, George Haikalis is an engineer with the Committee for Better Transit (correct me if I am wrong). While I like some of his obviously creative thinking, I don't appreciate his efforts to derail every major transit project which didn't match his personal world view. His past propensity for totally ignoring political and fiscal realities has limited the contributions he could make to our transit systems.
Still, this dinner sounds like it would be well worth attending.
Mr. Haikalis is with the CBT, as well as Transportation Alternatives, Institure for Rational Urban Mobility, and other "auto-free" groups. A friend of mine is of the opinion that now that his name is attached to the 42 St project, it's guaranteed to be dead, although I think it's doomed with or without his involvement.
42 St is the focus because it all started in 1994, when Times Square was experiencing its "rebirth," and today, the Times Square glitz is stretching ever westward. The idea is for the light rail to serve as a "cleaner" alternative to buses, but Mr. Haikalis' main concern is ridding the street of automobiles to turn it into a pedestrian boulevard.
An amusing anecdote about the original 42 St light rail project: the community board was outraged at the potential impact the LRVs would have on pedestrians, so one consultant facetiously brought up the idea of bringing back "Tenth Avenue cowboys," the horses that would lead trains down Tenth Ave before the high line, to 42 St. The community board took it seriously and demanded it!
The idea of a car-free 42nd St isn't a bad one.
However, if you're going to do one, why not put an LRV on 34 Street, where it can connect Penn Station to Herald Square, among other places? That street relies on buses for Eas-West connections.
Yeah, community boards can be pretty strange sometimes. You have to find out what they really want, arrange to get it, and prepare to horse-trade. That, and not be afraid to embarass a little. An example of the latter occurred when an airline industry lobbyist fighting AirTrain was made to look like little more than a common thief at one of the meetings.
The only reason to put in light rail (as opposed to other modes) is to take away lanes from buses, trucks, taxis, and emergency vehicles, along with private cars. To make it work, 42nd Street would have to have signal priority over the Avenues. All of Midtown would lock up. Light rail only works in low traffic areas, or on a private ROW (which makes it more like heavy rail).
Not to be a broken record, but if the Flushing Line were extended west, and the Shuttle were extend east, we'd have a vastly superior east-west transit line, albeit at a vastly greater cost. And the right way to reduce traffic in Manhattan is to toll the rest of the crossings into Manhattan using EZpass, then jack up the tolls until speeds improve. Too bad the two can't be combined.
I'd have to agree...
That would penalize anyone who has to drive into Manhattan.
Sarge, lots of people want to drive into Manhattan. Very few absolutely have to. We could always give them a discount.
How would one prove his/her destination? Those who drive into Manhattan are "punished" by dealing with the traffic. I don't think NYCT is hurting for ridership at peak hours; the system is rather overburdened as it is. Of course, so is the highway system.
How would one prove his/her destination?
The proposal which led to this "sub-thread" was to limit westbound cars on the currently free East River bridges to EZPass. Since anyone who goes across one of those bridges westbound ends up in Manhattan on reaching the end of the bridge, I don't understand your question. Please clarify.
Those who drive into Manhattan are "punished" by dealing with the traffic.
"TANSTAAFL." Someone always pays. The real question is who, the user or the general public. In the case of free bridges into Manhattan, the public pays in cash for repairs and in adverse health (and other) consequences while the driver pays by being inconvenienced. I think that there would be less traffic if there were EZPass tolls on the bridges. Reasonable (they are reasonable, aren't they) people differ as to whether the community is better off with fewer cars going across our bridges into Manhattan. I think so.
I don't think NYCT is hurting for ridership at peak hours; the system is rather overburdened as it is. Of course, so is the highway
system.
Despite the difficulties and expense of doing so, I believe that subway capacity in and around Manhattan can be increased more readily than road capacity.
The proposal which led to this "sub-thread" was to limit westbound cars on the currently free East River bridges to EZPass. Since anyone who goes across one of those bridges westbound ends up in Manhattan on reaching the end of the bridge, I don't understand your question. Please clarify.
I was referring to your proposal to offer a discount to those who have no option but driving into Manhattan. How would one prove one's destination and the necessity of driving to it, and who determines what is a reasonable cause for driving?
"TANSTAAFL."
I'm not familiar with that acronym...
I think that there would be less traffic if there were EZPass tolls on the bridges
It would only signuficantly reduce the number of through trips made by people who use free bridges to avoid tolls, and these trips would only be diverted to other bridges. I doubt people commute to Manhattan by car simmply because they can do it for free; the scarcity and cost of parking and the lost time sitting in traffic make the cost of a toll neglegible.
Reasonable (they are reasonable, aren't they) people differ as to whether the community is better off with fewer cars going across our bridges into Manhattan. I think so.
I definitely agree that lower traffic volumes would be a positive impact, but I don't think putting a toll on every bridge is going to reduce traffic to the point that it would make a difference.
Despite the difficulties and expense of doing so, I believe that subway capacity in and around Manhattan can be increased more readily than road capacity.
Increasing subway capacity requires signal upgrades, fleet increases, more staff; increasing roadway capacity can usually be accomplished by changing signal timing, restriping lanes, and eliminating parking. Increasing capacity across the river, however, is nearly impossible without constructing a crosstown expressway.
"'TANSTAAFL.' "I'm not familiar with that acronym..."
There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Oddly enough, it's a pre-Internet acronym, usually attributed to science-fiction author Robert Heinlein, and not net-speak like IMHO or AFAIK.
Ah; thanks :)
I was referring to your proposal to offer a discount to those who have no option but driving into Manhattan. How would one prove one's destination and the necessity of driving to it, and who determines what is a reasonable cause for driving?
Since all destinations in Manhattan can be reached by subway or (horrors) bus, one would not have to prove one's specific destination. One would have to prove the necessity of driving by proving that he is incapable of using public transit due to his physical condition or because he regularly transports more "stuff" in his car than can be carried on a bus or subway or for some other, comparable reason. Since buses and subways run less frequently from the end of the evening rush until the beginning of the morning rush, no tolls would be collected during those hours. Who decides? Maybe the same people who decide now who gets a discount on the subway and buses.
It would only signuficantly reduce the number of through trips made by people who use free bridges to avoid tolls, and these trips would only be diverted to other bridges. I doubt people commute to Manhattan by car simmply because they can do it for free; the scarcity and cost of parking and the lost time sitting in traffic make the cost of a toll neglegible.
We disagree on the elasticity of demand for access to Manhattan by car. I think that even a 25 cent toll would reduce total usage marginally. The larger the toll, the greater the impact. Perhaps you wouldn't want to set the tolls high enough to finance the subway tunnel to SI; maybe not even high enough to cover routine maintenance on the East River bridges. I would suggest setting the lower East River bridges at par with the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel and the 59th Street Bridge to match the Midtown Tunnel.
I definitely agree that lower traffic volumes would be a positive impact, but I don't think putting a toll on every bridge is going to reduce traffic to the point that it would make a difference.
As I just said, we disagree. No one will know who is right until someone tries it and measures the impact.
Increasing subway capacity requires signal upgrades, fleet increases, more staff; increasing roadway capacity can usually be accomplished by changing signal timing, restriping lanes, and eliminating parking. Increasing capacity across the river, however, is nearly impossible without constructing a crosstown expressway.
Not to mention digging more subway tunnels. At some point all of the standard traffic flow measures are already employed. I don't know whether this is the case yet in NYC; but, in an age when "traffic calming" (actually, deliberate traffic obstruction) is the rage, I see street capacity decreasing. Lots of luck getting a cross-town expressway built in Manhattan.
Since all destinations in Manhattan can be reached by subway or (horrors) bus, one would not have to prove one's specific destination. One would have to prove the necessity of driving by proving that he is incapable of using public transit due to his physical condition or because he regularly transports more "stuff" in his car than can be carried on a bus or subway or for some other, comparable reason.
With all buses and more and more subway stations being ADA compliant, it would be difficult to prove that one physically needs to drive. And those who don't regularly transport large items? I had to move, so I drove my empty minivan across the Queensboro Bridge. I wouldn't have had a permit as a regular transporter; would I have been able to apply for a temporary permit, or would my one-time trip be considered an "unnecessary" drive? I wouldn't be particularly happy if I had to pay, while the guy at the next tollbooth is using his commercial van to take his girlfriend out in the city and zips through with his transporter pass.
Since buses and subways run less frequently from the end of the evening rush until the beginning of the morning rush, no tolls would be collected during those hours. Who decides? Maybe the same people who decide now who gets a discount on the subway and buses.
The cost of implementation of tolls on four to thirteen bridges would probably not make it worthwhile to collect tolls during peak hours only, especially if there's the added cost of the paperwork involved in giving out permits. Off-hours is also when transit could use a boost in ridership.
As I just said, we disagree. No one will know who is right until someone tries it and measures the impact.
But nothing is ever tried without knowing the impact first; maybe a survey of bridge users would give an idea, though.
At some point all of the standard traffic flow measures are already employed. I don't know whether this is the case yet in NYC; but, in an age when "traffic calming" (actually, deliberate traffic obstruction) is the rage, I see street capacity decreasing. Lots of luck getting a cross-town expressway built in Manhattan.
The grid system causes problems with increasing intersection capacities in Manhattan, for obvious reasons, but it isn't the case that everything that could be done has been done. Elimination of traffic calming is one of those things that could be done!
Do what they do in Singapore. If a vehicle wants to drive in Manhatten Say South of 59th St, they have to buy a monthly permit. For daily or weekly use, charge the same amount. Then people will use public transportation even from New Jersey and Other States.
(I doubt people commute to Manhattan by car simmply because they can do it for free; the scarcity and cost of parking and the lost time sitting in traffic make the cost of a toll neglegible.)
Tens of thousands of people on the ins with the City of New York get permits to park on the street, in restricted zones, for nothing. They are the real losers of a toll of the free bridges.
(I definitely agree that lower traffic volumes would be a positive impact, but I don't think putting a toll
on every bridge is going to reduce traffic to the point that it would make a difference.)
No, but it might pay for the cost of completely rebuilding the bridges. There was a toll when they were built the first time.
Tens of thousands of people on the ins with the City of New York get permits to park on the street, in restricted
zones, for nothing. They are the real losers of a toll of the free bridges.
Wouldn't they be the winners? They'd probably get a free EZPASS
deal to relieve this "hardship" and once they actually make
in into Manhattan, they'd have a faster drive to their free
parking spot since no one else will be allowed to be in a car.
There was a toll when they were built the
first time.
What bridges are we talking about again? I don't think there
was ever a toll on the 4 free bridges over the East River.
The Brooklyn & Williamsburgh bridges had a 1¢ toll until 1910. I'm not sure if they bothered putting a toll on the Manhattan & Queensboro, since they opened less than a year before the toll elimination.
Prior to 1910, traffic volumes were probably an order of magnitude lower than they are today; installing a toll array would only add to the severe congestion. And please, no one start the "EZ-Pass only" argument again...
I'm not sure if they bothered putting a toll on the Manhattan & Queensboro, since they opened less than a year before the toll elimination.
There were tolls on both these bridges.
Prior to 1910, traffic volumes were probably an order of magnitude lower than they are today;
Peak traffic volume for the Brooklyn Bridge was 1908.
Peak traffic volume for the Brooklyn Bridge was 1908.
Vehicular? Or counting the transit lines that no longer run there?
The term "traffic" has a precise legal definition.
From the NYS Vehicle & Traffic Law
S 152. Traffic. Pedestrians, ridden or herded animals, vehicles, bicycles, and other conveyances either singly or together while using any highway for purposes of travel.
That's ridiculous.
All you can do is show definitions, when it's obvious that the poster who said that traffic was higher was only referring to traffic that was subject to the toll!
Are you going to actually contribute something more than a dictionary to this board?
All traffic was charged tolls on the East River bridges. The East River Bridge Company collected revenue based on per capita use from the El and trolley car companies that used the Brooklyn Bridge. I have not looked for it recently, but the last time I checked the Williamsburgh Bridge pedestrian toll booth still existed. I'm sure you've also seen this booth but never realized what was its original function.
It is not surprising that Brooklyn Bridge traffic volume should have peaked in 1908. It was the last full year before the Manhattan Bridge opened.
Reporting the traffic volumes on the East River Bridges used to be one of the few statutory obligations of the NYC Traffic Commissioner (later the Transportation Admistrator). The counts usually take place in October. These annual reports are available for public view and show some interesting trends. For example, around 1918 nearly half the crossings of the Queensboro were by pedestrians. Also, Queensboro traffic volume peaked in 1939 - not surprising because people were visiting the Trylon and Perisphere.
I was referring to vehicular traffic alone; charging pedestrains a toll in 2001 is ludicrous.
Have you looked at the WB pedestrian walkways recently?
A lot has changed.
Where was this toll booth, on the Manhattan or Brooklyn side?
Have you looked at the WB pedestrian walkways recently? A lot has changed.
It's going to change a lot more, when the north side is rebuilt. BTW, the 3 newer East River bridges all had dual pedestrian paths because of the deficiency of the Brooklyn Bridge Promenade. Can you guess why and when the extra pedestrian paths were removed on the MB and WB?
Where was this toll booth, on the Manhattan or Brooklyn side?
On the Manhattan side. Look at the back cover of "The Tracks of New York Number 1", you'll see it.
Can you guess why and when the extra pedestrian paths were removed on the MB and WB?
The north side of the Manhattan Bridge and the south side of the Williamsburg Bridge had the walkways removed in World War II to prevent spying of the Navy Yard?
Now, correct me if I'm mistaken, but weren't the inner roadways
of the willie-B originally purely for pedestrian use? I recall
a photo where you can clearly see those roadways terminate at
the headhouse structure. They are full of pedestrians who evidently
headed downstairs and paid their toll to get on to Delancey.
When the inner roadways were cut over to auto use, new ped walkways
were constructed above them. They were scary-looking wood plank
affairs. In later years, only one walkway was open due to
poor maintenance. Today, all of that structure has been removed.
The ped walkway is this absurd caged box south of the south
outer roadway. The original headhouse was completey demolished
but very carefully. Each brick was numbered and it is supposed
to be re-assembled in some park somewhere. I guess it makes sense
that they'll erect another box walkway as they re-rebuild the
north side of the bridge.
Now, correct me if I'm mistaken, but weren't the inner roadways of the willie-B originally purely for pedestrian use? I recall a photo where you can clearly see those roadways terminate at the headhouse structure. They are full of pedestrians who evidently headed downstairs and paid their toll to get on to Delancey. When the inner roadways were cut over to auto use, new ped walkways were constructed above them.
No, the pedestrian/bicycle lanes were originally above the inner roadways. The inner roadways were designed for streetcars. Manhattan streetcars used the north inner roadway and terminated at Washington Plaza. Brooklyn trolleys ran to the underground Essex St terminal. Access to the these pedestrian lanes on the Manhattan side was via a stairway where the south inner roadway would been, had it not gone underground. Access on the Brooklyn side was via a ramp below the El tracks in the center that terminated at Driggs Ave.
Manhattan streetcar service stopped in 1924 and the north inner roadway was converted to automobile use. Brooklyn trolley service stopped in 1948. The Manhattan stairway and the tollbooth were moved to the center of the bridge to make room for the new automobile access ramp.
They were scary-looking wood plank affairs.
Steel plates with an asphalt shingle surface was originally used. These lasted until the mid 1980's, when they were replaced by wood planks as an emergency measure.
In later years, only one walkway was open due to poor maintenance.
Sounds reasonable but not true. The south pedestrian walkway and the Manhattan Bridge's north pedestrian walkway were both disassembled in 1942, at the request of the War Department. They were removed to prevent spies from taking pictures of the Brooklyn Navy Yard. Signs prohibiting taking pictures from the bridge lasted well after the Navy Yard's closure in 1965.
I guess it makes sense that they'll erect another box walkway as they re-rebuild the north side of the bridge.
This one should not have any stairs.
I just found the source for the East River bridge use. It is in the Jan 1993 copy of Technology Review. There's a diagram that shows how the 4 bridges have changed over the years. It also shows peak year traffic and present (1991-1992?) volumes. Here are the comarisons:
Brooklyn Bridge - peak (1907) 426,000; present 178,000
Manhattan Bridge - peak (1939) 703,000; present 360,000
Williamsburg Bridge - peak (1924) 505,000; present 240,000
Queensboro Bridge - peak (1940) 326,000; present 248,000
I was off on the peak years by 1 year in my previous post.
N.B. total peak crossings and present crossings:
1,960,000 (peak); 1,026,000 (present)
Clearly, present traffic can almost be doubled on the existing bridges based on their previous documented performances.
Vehicular only, or including pedestrians? Also, annual volumes are meaningless if you consider that a bridge operating at capacity for a few hours and flowing freely for the remainder of the day would have a lower annual volume than one operating at 50-75% capacity over a longer time period (I'm not sure how applicable that is to early 20th century traffic patterns, though).
Also, annual volumes are meaningless...
I thought that the actual numbers would have made it obvious that these are daily counts.
An average daily count is an annual total/365 (or was this conducted on a single day?). The logic still applies; this says nothing about the temporal distribution of the daily volume.
There are several ways to estimate "average" daily counts. Counting for an entire year and dividing by the number of days is one. There are other sampling techniques that are more efficient in terms of the labor involved. There is no systematic error so long as the techniques are consistent. Since the answers were rounded in thousands, precision is not particularly important.
While temporal information would certainly be interesting I don't understand its relevance in confirming or debunking the assertion that these bridges are currently carrying 50% the traffic from their peak years. The enabling legislation for the two most recent bridges stated that "these bridges when completed shall be public highways for the purpose of making travel between ... safe and certain at all times." I would assume that a 24 hour measure, as opposed to a peak figure, would be a better measure of how well the bridge performed to this specification.
While temporal information would certainly be interesting I don't understand its relevance in confirming or debunking the assertion that these bridges are currently carrying 50% the traffic from their peak years.
The discussion was initially about putting tolls on the briges, and how toll collection would introduce a new control point and further limit the capacity on the briges, which already operate at capacity during peak hours. Regardless of how much daily traffic the bridge is carrying today relative to seventy years ago, if the bridge is at capacity in the peak hours, it's at capacity, even if it's only at 20% of its theoretical daily capacity. Additionally, the capacities of the bridges today are controlled by signals or highway ramps at either end, which probably was not the case in the earlier part of the century. To match its 1939 peak, the Manhattan Bridge would have to carry an average of 14,646 vehicles per hour, per direction; you can visualize Canal St & the Bowery or Flatbush Ave & Tillary St with that kind of volume?
The discussion was initially about putting tolls on the briges, and how toll collection would introduce a new control point and further limit the capacity on the briges, which already operate at capacity during peak hours.
The capacity of the Manhattan Bridge is effectively limited by the traffic lights at the Bowery and Chrystie St (for the upper level). Toll collection at the Brooklyn approaches need not limit its peak capacity.
To match its 1939 peak, the Manhattan Bridge would have to carry an average of 14,646 vehicles per hour, per direction; you can visualize Canal St & the Bowery or Flatbush Ave & Tillary St with that kind of volume?
I can visualize 30 trains per hour each with 1200 passengers for 36,000 per hour in one direction. Add in another 14,000 or so for the Nassau St Loop and you can get 50,00 per hour in one direction. The point is that the private automobile is probably the least efficient means for transporting people from a land (or bridge) use perspective.
A single lane of private automobiles will move about 2200 people per hour (if you are lucky). That same facility will move 4000 people, if they were on foot; 6000 people if they were on bicycles or 15,000 if they were in buses.
(Brooklyn Bridge - peak (1907) 426,000; present 178,000
Manhattan Bridge - peak (1939) 703,000; present 360,000
Williamsburg Bridge - peak (1924) 505,000; present 240,000
Queensboro Bridge - peak (1940) 326,000; present 248,000)
Geez, with that condescending tone, you'd better be right. Are those figures per day? Are they one way or two-way?
According to the Hub Bound survey, in 1997 the Manattan Bridge had 117,000 riders entering and 117,000 riders exiting on the subway, and 63,000 entering and 108,000 exiting in motor vehicles. That totals something very close to your 360,000 (it's about 400,000).
So if that's what you mean, then we are talking about people not vehicles, and you can move a lot more people in trains, trolleys and buses than in cars. When was elevated service over the Brooklyn Bridge downsized by subway service over the Manhattan Bridge? About 1907? When was subway service over the Manhattan Bridge downsized by the Cranberry and Rutgers tunnels? After 1939? When was elevated service over the Queensboro terminated? Some time after 1940? When did the Canarsie Line get finished, taking pressure of the Willie B? Some time after 1924?
Sure, turn the subway tunnels over to cars and the bridges over to more trains (if they can hold them) and you get more PEOPLE over the bridges. As for vehicles, I doubt they ever carried more.
Sure, turn the subway tunnels over to cars and the bridges over to more trains (if they can hold them) and you get more PEOPLE over the
bridges. As for vehicles, I doubt they ever carried more.
They did during the 1980 subway strike - about 20% more than current figures.
(Tens of thousands of people on the ins with the City of New York get permits to park on the street, in restricted zones, for nothing. They are the real losers of a toll of the free bridges.)
(Wouldn't they be the winners? They'd probably get a free EZPASS
deal to relieve this "hardship" and once they actually make
in into Manhattan, they'd have a faster drive to their free parking.)
Perhaps the City Council, the State Legislature, the Mayor, the Governor, and the MTA Board would get free EZ-Pass. My guess is most of the rest would have to pay.
You have to pay one way or another. Manhattan street space is scarce, and some means will be developed to ration it. We can ration it by price through tolls or other means, by "need", or by queue -- everyone keeps driving in until it is so packed that no one can move and some decide they can't stand it anymore.
We now have a hybrid system. Restrictions on the provision of off-street parking, the 18 percent parking tax, and tolls on some bridges and tunnels attempt to raise the cost of driving and ration by price, with some of the money diverted to transit to shift the incentive. Limitations on off-street parking, combined with the liberal dispensation of on-street parking passes to the politically connected, are our version of need (some go to the handicapped). More and more, however, people are driving in until the level of congestion is itself a deterrent -- rationing by queue. Unfortunately, vehicles in the queue spew pollution, and emergency vehicles, buses, cabs, and delivery vehicles are caught in the queue.
I say go with price.
You forgot one important component of the equation:
availability of workable alternatives. Making a decision
between driving to the city and taking transit is a choice
of which is the least unpleasant, both financially as well
as emotionally.
One reason why we may be seeing crisis levels of Manhattan
commuter traffic (which thankfully has not included animals,
singly or herded, thank you Stephen Bauman) is that the
unpleasantness factor of transit, and the subway system in
particular, has risen sharply in the past five years thanks
to diminishing system capacity. At the same time, we have
seen a sharp rise in income among the affluent, which makes
the economic unpleasantness on driving less of an issue.
I say build out more park-n-ride facilities within the boroughs
and work on improving peak capacity. But don't worry, the recession
should ease traffic somewhat.
(I say build out more park-n-ride facilities within the boroughs
and work on improving peak capacity. But don't worry, the recession
should ease traffic somewhat.)
I agree on the park-n-ride front. NYC's parking expenditures are a small share of its parking revenues. And we could certainly use the Second Avenue Subway, though a "study" is all we are likely to get.
As for the recession, don't count on it hitting NYC. Since 1975-77, most recessions have been regional, based on the restructuring of the leading industry in the region. In the early 1990s, finance and advanced business services restructured -- that's us. In the early 1980s manufacturing restructured, and New York lost a handful of jobs. It looks like a manufacturing recession again this time.
A think lightrail ALL OVER major thorofares in NYC and primarily Manahttan is a great idea, perhaps even to the extent of gradually phasing out most Bus routes in favor of slowly replacing them with far more environmentally friendly light rail. But my suggestion is that we use and elevated LR, so that NO lanes of traffic anywhere have to be lost, and plus, for a LR to be trully effective, it has to not be conventionally limited by things ordinary street traffic is limited by, such as red lights, traffic congestion, etc. I think a great example is the Vancouver Canada Skytrain, an Inverted monorail (?) LR which hangs down from the tracks as its wheels are on top of each carbody. In the interest of fairness, I think it should be MaBSTOA bus drivers who would be displaced who should have first choice at employment in operating these LRs. Peace, Thomas :/
(But my suggestion is that we use and elevated LR, so that NO lanes of traffic anywhere have to be lost, and plus, for a LR to be trully effective, it has to not be conventionally limited by things ordinary street traffic is limited by, such as red lights, traffic congestion, etc.)
I agree you have to go up or down, and up is cheaper, but is up really effective? The PAX lose time, especially when transferring from an underground subway. There was a long thread about monorails a while back. They are quiet (you never hear them coming at Disney) and cheaper to build, but they are also up while the subways are down.
HEV buses are an enviromentally friendly alternative to diesel buses, and they don't suffer from the shortcomings of light rail.
Elevated rail would be a great solution traffic-wise, but els were eliminated because they block out light and, in certain areas, are conducive to crime and vagrancy. I don't think we'll see a 42 St el anytime in the near future.
Light rail would work on selected "crosstown" routes in the outer boros heavily served by buses, especialy on wide boulevard-type streets. For example, in the Bronx you could run a route roughly paralelling the Bx12 bus line, starting in Marble hill, east along Kingsbridge Rd. skirting the Fordham/Concourse shopping area, past Fordham Univ. and the zoo, then across Pelham Pkwy., perhaps ending in Coop City. Only buses serve many of these areas, the buses run in bunches and are slow and crowded, etc.
Signal priority wouldn't be an absolute necessity; it could run as a "guided busway" that would operate just as buses do now. Of course, it would result in bunching, as buses do, with the detraction that the LRVs couldn't pass one another, unless it will have three or four tracks and a liberal amount of switches, which eliminates the desired effect of turning the street into a pedestrian boulevard.
NYCT is supposed to be experimenting with remote devices to give buses signal priority, so it will be interesting to see what effect that has on the intricately-timed traffic signal network. I'm guessing it won't be pretty.
I don't think that bus bunching has anything to do with traffic. Have you ever waited for a bus near the staring point of the line in Manhattan? They happen to bunch already there!
Arti
I think you're right. I believe that bus bunching is mostly due to inadequate frequency of service.
Why do they need all that remote signaling technology? Here in Philly we have a much cheaper system: the buses just ignore stoplights.
Mark Michalovic
Buses everywhere do that; I guess the TA wants to cut down on accidents :). I was almost broadsided by a RIPTA bus running a red light on 12/24/99.
Doing it on 34th would be better, because both nieghboring side streets -- 33rd and 35th streets, also are available to funnel traffic from the east side to the west side. At 42nd Street, you've got the problem of Tudor City blocking 41st and 43rd streets at First Ave., the Public Library blocking 41st at Fifth and Grand Central blocking 43rd and 44th at Grand Central. All the traffic rerouting that would cause would offset any savings in air pollution from closing 42nd to traffic.
Except I seem to remember an unusual fact that 33rd Street is one-way AWAY from Broadway in both directions. Anyone know why that is?
It's probably to allow the perennially backed up traffic on northbound 6th Avenue a relief valve to get out of the intersection.
Now that I've thought about it, I'm sure the real reason is to keep cars from entering this very congested intersection from 33rd St. at that point.
It was most likely to avoid gridlock from 33 St traffic that would block Broadway and 6 Ave. The single eastbound block, between 5 Ave & Broadway, has now been reversed, and 33 St is entirely westbound; however, a median has been erected between 6 Ave and Broadway, forcing all 33 St traffic onto Broadway.
I agree that 34th St would a better place than 42nd St to have light rail service. But 34th also gets choked with traffic many hours of the day. The light rail would definitely need priority traffic signals and completely reserved lanes for the LRVs or it would have to run underground for part of its route. And since so many people arrive in New York City by train, putting the light rail on 34th St would put it right where people can find it. Putting it on 42nd St in the area of the bus terminal would be bad because with so many buses coming and going out the terminal and the amount of traffic, it would severely slow LRVs down, even with reserved lanes.
Cross-town LRVs in Manhattan would be just large, non-polluting buses. Come to think of it, what's so bad about large capacity, non-polluting buses?
Who says both directions of a trolley have to go on the same street? Why not put a westbound LRV on 42 St, thus removing only 1 lane from traffic, and put the eastbound track on 40th Street?
"Why not put a westbound LRV on 42 St, thus removing only 1 lane from traffic, and put the eastbound track on 40th Street?"
Because unless your destination is on 41st St., your walk either to or from your destination will be two blocks longer. Someone whose office was on 43rd Street, for instance, would walk one block in the morning and three in the evening. That equals inconvenience, and with alternatives like the 7 line and the shuttle, inconvenience would mean fewer passengers.
[Because unless your destination is on 41st St., your walk either to or from your destination will be two blocks longer. Someone whose office was on 43rd Street, for instance, would walk one block in the morning and three in the evening.]
If you use buses on the avenues, your walk is going to be significantly longer, 2 city blocks is really nothing.
[That equals inconvenience, and with alternatives like the 7 line and the shuttle, inconvenience would mean fewer passengers. ]
The trains will make you walk even more, they don't stop at every avenue + long walk down the stairs.
Arti
If it's cold, windy, raining or snowing, better to walk three blocks underground than three blocks on the street.
Ideally a light rail line would run on 34th St. over to around Lexington Ave., and then travel up to 42nd and then over to the East River, since 34th becomes a lot less commercial east of Madison Ave. That would allow the rail line to hook up the Penn Station and Grand Central areas, along with the UN and the Javits Center, while avoiding the big bottlnecks west of Lexington due to the blockage of 41st and 43rd streets by GCT and the NY Public Library.
Of course a light rail line wrong-waying north on Lexington could create its own problems, even with a dedicated lane, while going down Third would put it too far away from GCT and going down Park would probably stir up the area's richer NIMBYs.
[If it's cold, windy, raining or snowing, better to walk three blocks underground than three blocks on the street. ]
Lot of people from the East Side have that as an only option. Take me, for example, walking from 26th St. and 2nd Ave to 28th and Park, and imagine people on Upper East Side...
Arti
I used to live at 20th and First, so it was either walk six blocks down to the L at 14th St. or three blocks north and four longer ones over to the 6 at 23rd and Park.
Not fun in bad weather, and since you live on Second Ave., you're probably pretty familar with the wolf-like habits of the M-15 bus -- they only travel in packs, and then you can't find any for long periods of time, which meant it wasn't the greatest option in the world either at this time of year.
Well I pretty much avoid M15. IMHO they could improve the trave situation, by introducing double bus lanes (like on Madison and 5th) and enforcing it (unlike Mad & 5th.) This brings me to the topic of NYC traffic law enforement, well it doesn't exist! Lot of problems, especially CROSSTOWN travel could be soleved by enforing the EXISTING laws.
I remember when they started building the Baruch on 25th, every day there was a police patrol fining people turning left from 3rd Ave., well for few years havent't seen that to happen...
Arti
That also makes 34th a better place for light rail.
Manhattan is no place for light rail. It would offer few advantages over a bus. With all that traffic and north-south signal priority, you need grade separation to get crosstown against the lights. If you give the light rail priority, you lock the grid, and stall out deliveries, emergency vehicles, buses and cabs, as well as Single Occupant Vehicles (SOVs).
Heck, I'd even like to see a Montreal-style below ground pedway on 49th Street, to cut the time needed to walk crosstown.
42 St is the focus because it all started in 1994, when Times Square was experiencing its "rebirth," and today, the Times Square glitz is stretching ever westward. The idea is for the light rail to serve as a "cleaner" alternative to buses, but Mr. Haikalis' main concern is ridding the street of automobiles to turn it into a pedestrian boulevard.
Without a completely isolated (from motor vehicles) right-of-way and full grade separation with all the intersecting avenues, a light rail line on 42nd Street will be nothing more than a glorified bus line, no faster than a bus line. But far more expensive.
Whatever happened to the group that was proposing light rail for the Greenwich Village area?...I know they had a web site a few years ago too....
The Village light rail website is listed in the Transfer Station in this website!
I bumped into one of that group giving out literature at the opening of the HBLR extension to Newport Mall.
During my morning commutes on the CTA Red Line from Berwyn to Jackson, I typically board the last car of the train because it seems to offer the best chances of finding a seat. Railfan window is nice, but at 7:00 AM the only thing on my mind is finding a place to sit down before I fall down and go back to sleep.
Yesterday morning was fairly typical, except that for whatever reason the train was unusually crowded and there was not a single place to sit. I noticed, however, that the door to the operator's cab had been propped open. (Cabs on CTA 2600's are a bit odd that there is the cab itself which is only partial-width, and there is the larger cab area which is full-width. When the cab is not in use, the door is closed so that the operator's portion of the cab is closed off but that the left-hand side remains open for additional seating.) On this train of rebuilt 2600's (I was riding in 2747), the whole thing was left open. Since every other seat on the car was occupied, I did the only natural thing as a railfan: I took the operator's seat in the cab, facing out the rear of the train.
Of course the cab was "de-activated", so it's doubtful that I could have operated any controls at the time without a key. Still, I decided not to take any chances and adopted a strict hands-off policy.
A few observations:
The cab is extremely cramped with rather limited visibility. I'd guess motormen got rather claustrophobic in the days before OPTO and full-width cabs.
The speed guage is mounted up next to the front (rear?) window in a format that resembles two thermometers side-by-side: One is the actual speed and it has indicators up to 70 MPH, and the other is allowable speed, broken into the following increments which light up depending on what the cab signalling is telling it: 0-15 MPH, 25 MPH, 35 MPH, 55 MPH, and 70 MPH. (To my knowledge CTA trains do not exceed 55 MPH in regular service.)
Directly on the opposite side of the window, mounted on the bulkhead next to the storm door, are various other controls for lighting, climate control, communications, etc. Overall it looks very low-tech compared to what I've seen on newer trains like the MBTA's 01800's. Newer controls have been tacked on for the automated announcement system. Of particular interest were the two knobs by which the marker lights and destination signs are set. One dial is marked A, B, and C; and the other is marked with numbers 1 through 5. Above the knobs is a decal explaining the possible combinations and their associated marker light / destination sign settings:
12345A95/Dan RyanHowardLoop
(Purple)LindenHowardBWilsonRooseveltLoop
(Brown)KimballBelmontCFord CityMidwayLoop
(Orange)Not in ServiceExpress
Obviously, this scheme only includes the possible destinations for the Red, Brown, Purple and Orange Lines. The Blue, Green and Yellow lines have some other scheme. I also thought it was interesting that the marker lights were not controlled independently of the destination signs, but I guess that makes sense.
Finally, the controller. On the 2600's it sort of resembles the throttle of a motorboat. (On other models like the 3200's it is more like a traditional trolley controller.) Here are the controller positions:
P4
P3
P2
P1
COAST
B1
B2
B3*
B4
OFF
* B3 is labelled in yellow while all the other positions are labelled black. I assume B3 must be the equivalent of full service braking, while anything beyond that would activate the track brakes. Or am I wrong?
On one final note, as we pulled into subway stations I coud hear the "pshhh!" of the pneumatically-operated trip arms raising after we passed each signal. The timing was such that it almost made it sound like the train had air brakes!
I stayed in that seat all the way down to Jackson. I got a few strange looks from people, but nobody said anything.
Anyway, just thought I'd share my experience... Questions/comments are most welcome.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I've seen Conductor's on the LIRR open the cab and offer a seat to members of the opposite sex. They usually stand there for a while & strike up a conversation ... sometimes not.
Mr t__:^)
Heh. Now you're gonna have half this group doing it in DRAG. Back when the A1A's were first arriving and the LIRR was trying to hire anyone willing to run "the route of the mighty diesel" (any fellow UTU folk from the LIRR will remember that campaign) I struck up a conversation with a motorman, and after showing him my electric cert, let me grab the throttle into Jamaica ... back then Metro North and the LIRR were one happy railroad and the logic was if the MTA chairman could grab throttle, then by gum, union brethren could too.
In fact, the incident with the former MTA chairman was what led up to the changes in FRA workrules that now set cabs OFF LIMITS to anyone not an employee of the railroad at question *GRRRRRRRRR!!!!* Many a wet dream was ruined by that rule since at the time, I was used to social engineering my way into the cab at least on *any* train anywhere and in many cases, once pointing and reciting, for some handle time while the motorman stood and stretched his legs a bit on intercity runs ... then again, brakemen were ready to leap in if need be as well. Ah, the fun we all could have once upon a time with just a wee bit of actual handle time somewhere. :)
... and you wonder why they have transverse cabs now and plate metal. The guy at the throttle is scared to death of what could happen if a trainee or other non-tenured person managed to get at the switches and handles. "You break it, you bought it." If the conductors who do that were ever discovered by management, it'd be their last ride with or without a ticket.
Berwyn, eh? I board that line at Bryn Mawr when I'm in the Windy City; my aunt lives right on that line a block south of that station. She'll get off at Berwyn if she has to get groceries at that Jewell store. Whenever I cross or walk along Broadway in that area, I think of the #36 Broadway-State streetcar route, one of the last streetcar routes to be converted to bus. In fact, it was the next-to-last route. The 43rd anniversary of the last Broadway streetcar run is coming up on Feb. 16.
Oops, make that the 44th anniversary. The last Broadway streetcar run was on Feb. 16, 1957.
I have been looking at tracks, and the rest of the visible parts. One thing seems to be common throughout, I have not seen Welded rail on any of the Elevated portions. I haven't been on all of them, but the ones I have been on, no welded rail! Some have some nice tight fitting joints, joints over ties for quite rides, but NO welded rails. Whats the story here? Is it to allow the "El" structure to flex with every stop and start? Anyone notice this as well?
How come the lower level of W4th on the uptown express tracks, 4 bolt rail joiners are still being used instead of 6 bolt rail joiners? I'm suprised the rail is Not welded! It certainly would be quiter! Does anyone know of other noisie stations that one would have though should have been welded to improve the Quality of Life in the Big Apple? Whats with all this unwelded rails?
Tempus Edax Rerum
avid
Elevated rail is not welded for a reason: the track is installed in pre-made panels, trucked to the site and put in place by crane.
Alex
I've seen that done. It would seem its equally done to replace the ties. Do the tie weather faster above ground. Welded rail can be laid on els, with the same ease as undergound or in cuts or on embankments.
I think its more for flexing of the structures. Pre-made panals are neat ,fast and uniform, but the joints are not staggered. What's the benifit of a staggered joint? And don't get personal!
avid
Non-staggared joints do more damage to both the train and the tracks. When both wheels hit the joint at the same time a small horizontal force is exerted on next segment. Over time a gap forms and once that happens the problem gets really bad with huge gaps. Also as the train passes over it you get a shock comming btom both wheels at once. With a staggared joint the wheel on solid rail can provide more of a buffer.
Regarding welded rail on els, the NYCS els are very old and are not the tightest structures. There's lots of expantion on any el line and NYC is probably worse than average. However many other elevated structures have relded rail. PATCO over the Ben Franklin bridge, numerous railroad lines and the Market St. El. But most RR's are built to higher tolerances and MFL is built on an elevated roadbed of stone. The PATCO part on the bridge has an open bed like the NY el's and is 1920's era metal work. Welded rail is possible because they have about 4 welded rail expantion joints on each side. These special joints allow 2 pieces of welded rail to slide endwise as they expand contract or their base expands and contracts. I see no reason why the MAT shouldn't install welded rail.
From what I understand, the rail is not welded at the two types of sections on the el; where there are signals and where there are expansion joints. I've noticed that when SEPTA was reconstructing The Frankford El.
Expansion & contraction of the rail due to seasonal temperature changes on the structure.
My pictures are up of the new MARTA CQ312 car class. These cars are the Jessica Alba of subway cars. Here are a few samples. The picture quality sucks, but you should still get the idea.
Here's my choice for best looking subway car :)
That would be one of my choice to.
Robert
Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is that? Is it an old B-division redbird?
It's a BMT Standard, or "steel" cars as they were sometimes called!
Also known as the ABs to distinguish between 3-car lashups (B unit) and single cars (A units).
My vote for the best looking subway car goes to the R-32s as delivered from Budd. I still wish they could have kept their blue doors.
Don't forget the three car BX lashups!
Even if they were unsymmetrical with the center car having the R1-9 style deck roof and the outer two having the Stillwell (I think) style rooves. When the trailers were scrapped these were made into two car BT units, both motors.
I will never understand why the 4000's were dumped first. They were the newest of all of the Standards. I guess it had to be because they were trailers, and had no motors.
The 4000's had the same roof configuration as the 2500-2800's didn't they?
The 4000"s had the same roof as the 2600-thru 2800's. The 2500's had the Stilwell roof with box vents and bigger destination signs--the earliest ones had real small signs. To me 2500's were the neatest.
Yes the 4000's were scrapped because they were trailers, in my book something those cars never should have had due to underpowering.
The R27/30 replaced all the odd stuff first, like ex SIRT's, Multi's, AB trailers even Low-V's modified for BMT width on shuttles; finally the oldest of the AB's went. Most of the 2000-2200's, maybe some 23's.
I never remember seeing a BX set operating by itself. When three car trains were called for, they were always B's or three A's. The BX sets were always used in at least a six car train when they could be coupled to a B set.
I guess five cars could pull the sixth, but two cars were not up to pulling a third.
AFAIK, BX units were banned from the Manhattan Bridge because of the steep grades, but once in a while one would sneak over, perhaps coupled in the middle of an 8-car train. I can just see an everybody-out-and-push scenario...
I'll still go with the R-33/36 WF cars in their original exterior and interior paint designs as the best looking cars. Thank god the green and gray interior paint scheme never made it to the Flushing line in the 1970s, even if the silver and blue exterior colors did show up when the air conditioners were added.
I'll second that. The Flushing fleet was passed over during the first round of silver-and-blue repainting. Not all of the WF R-36s got that scheme. Some went from teal-and-white to all white.
Now if it only had a front destination/route number sign...
That was the main reason I didn't like them. That and the fact they had three sets of doors per side. By the time I first saw them, I had gotten used to the R units with their four sets per side.
That one will always be Number 1!
I like the ones with the squared-off roofs (I think these are the PRS Standards) better! :o>
wayne
I have to disagree with you with that, Wayne. The squared off tops look somewhat like R-1/9 tops.
Even if I liked the boxy, indestructible looks of the original IRT fleet or the R1-9 I'd have to agree on the earlier BMT standards for looks..as far as the first move ahead in getting modern for their time. My favorites were the 2500's.
The A-B's were a well-advanced car for their time, even if they had a few unnecessary gadgets a lot of their features were very good ones [some of which the R1-9 didn't have]. If only they had 400 HP !
Thanks for the plug for the old stuff!
Having operated both the BMT standards and R-1/9s, which control arrangement did you prefer? The BMT's controller on the right and brake valve on the left, or the other way around? Was it wasy for you to go back and forth between car classes?
Oh, uh, I like the R142a's. I'm not really into the pre-1985 cars.
Don't worry. You're welcome here. As long as you wear your armor. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
LMAO!
Mike "Mr Mass Transit" Still laughing at that post!
Very nice! Better than what I rode on in Atlanta in the summer, but those weren't bad either. I still like my WMATA Bredas and Rohrs and the Chicago 3200 series look cool, too. Also, the R62 in NYC looks cool too.
The worst? Undoubtly, the R142A (I have never seen an R142 in person and don't want to for that matter). That black front is so uncool it isn't even funny. The train looks like it has a mask.
I like the old cars, but I admit the "corporate look" of the R44-46 is very attractive. I like the R-142 and R-143.
The truth is, I like any subway car which comes right as I get to the platform, so I don't have to wait. And the TA has treated me well, on the whole, from that regard.
Very nice indeed... MARTA was actually the first subway I ever rode on (I was a rather late bloomer as a railfan, not riding a subway for the first time until a church trip to Atlanta during my junior year in high school). I've always been a big fan of the newer equipment such as MARTA, Washington Metro and BART. Best looking, though? I guess that's a bit subjective. I've always been a big fan of the CTA 2200's as pictured below:
Aside from the blinker doors, you can't get much more clean-cut and modern than that... Hard to believe these cars are almost retirement age now. As far as I know these are the only subway cars to have actually been designed by an architect: The Chicago-based powerhouse architecture firm Skidmore, Owings and Merrill served as the "aesthetic consultants" for the design of these cars. This is the same architecture firm that was designing the John Hancock Center and the Sears Tower around the same time.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>"you can't get much more clean-cut and modern than that... Hard to believe these cars are almost retirement age now"
Ahh. So you like these stainless-steel beauties from Budd! Modern in appearance - definitely! It never ceases to occur to me how that firm's earlier products, its stainless steel cars in the 60's and prior, always seemed a bit ahead of its time wherever they are run: Chicago, here in New York (R-32 Brightliners), on "mainline" railroads (numerous coaches, RDC's, and other cars). Alas, then came the Metroliners and SPV2000's...
How about the 2600's from Budd? They are among the most attractive cars outside NYC, IMHO. Why? - in part because I have always thought that the the "Spirit of Chicago" livery scheme (I believe that it is what it is called!) was most attractive - before the CTA started rebuilding some of the cars.
-cordially,
turnstiles
The 2600s may be attractive appearance-wise, but I found them to be noisy as hell in the Dearborn and State St. subways the last time I rode on them in 1996. Supposedly, they added some soundproofing during their rebuilding.
How about the 2600's from Budd? They are among the most attractive cars outside NYC, IMHO. Why? - in part because I have always thought that the the "Spirit of Chicago" livery scheme (I believe that it is what it is called!) was most attractive - before the CTA started rebuilding some of the cars.
I guess I don't really have any strong feelings one way or the other about the appearance of the 2600's. Since they form the backbone of the CTA fleet and don't look radically different from the 2400's (or even the 3200's for that matter), I have a tendancy to take them for granted and not give them much thought. I tend to think of the 2600's as being the CTA's most "typical" car in much the same way as I think of the R62 as the most "typical" A-division subway car; nothing about it is inherently beautiful or ugly, but it sets the default by which all other cars on the system are compared.
As strikingly modern as the 2200's were when they were introduced, the CTA nowadays has incredibly conservative design tastes in terms of aesthetics. (Hell, even most of the newer CTA stations are about as dull as dishwater, but that's a topic for another day.) There's nothing at all flashy about CTA railcars, and each new series makes only incremental changes from the series before it. I guess that design conservatism gives the cars sort of a timeless quality that defies trendiness (and prevents aesthetic disasters such as the R40-slants), but also eliminates the possibility of truly groundbreaking new cars such as the MBTA's Bombardier 01800's. (Having said that, the CTA 3200's are not bad looking at all; I'd say they're my second-place favorites after the 2200's.)
The Spirit of Chicago ("I Will") paint scheme on the 2600's probably looked a lot better when they were brand-new. On the 2600's that have not yet been rebuilt, the paint is usually more than a bit faded and/or chipped. The rebuild strips them of their paint and leaves them without a bit of the original design character, but they now look a lot fresher and newer. (The rebuild also includes new interior lighting, mechanical/electrical modifications, and a much smoother and quieter ride -- a big improvement over before.)
Speaking of rebuilds, in the interest of fair disclosure I should point out that the 2200's were rebuilt themselves a few years ago and have changed a bit since the photo in my original posting was taken. The black paint around the front windows and headlights has been removed, and the fixed side windows have been replaced by hopper windows with thicker frames and an operable top section. I persoonally think they looked better before the rebuild, but they are still fairly sharp-looking cars even today.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Everyone responding to my original post must have mistakenly thought that this was up for debate, 'cuz it's not :)
The 2200s are a very attractive looking set. It's hard to believe that they are from the same time period as the Redbirds. They've withstood the test of time with flying colors. The windows look like the ones you would normally see on a "modern" car. You're right about it being clean cut, looks good. Both the front and the sides are perfectly designed, even the doors go with it. Those are some funky doors, though. Something that you would see on a light rail car. Isn't there a fixed column down the middle of the door?
Those are some funky doors, though. Something that you would see on a light rail car. Isn't there a fixed column down the middle of the door?
The doors are indeed funky; the 2200's are the last cars still operating on the CTA system with blinker doors. But up until the arrival of the 2400-Series, blinker doors were standard throughout the system. And yes, that's a fixed column; each "door" is actually two seperate openings about 24" wide each. Not wide enough for a wheelchair, unfortunately, which is why you'll no longer see an entire CTA train of 2200's.
Interesting comment about light rail cars... CTA cars probably have more in common with streetcars than any other rapid transit cars I'm familiar with. The 6000-Series were in fact based on the PCC design, and even today CTA cars are almost sort of a half-breed between trolley and heavy rail.
I too almost fell off my chair when I compared the dates of manufacture of the 2200's and the redbirds and found they were almost the same age; I think the 2200's are incredibly modern-looking even by R142 standards.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>I too almost fell off my chair when I compared the dates of manufacture of the 2200's and the redbirds and found they were almost the same age; I think the 2200's are incredibly modern-looking even by R142 standards.<<<
I think that PATHs PA1 cars have them all beat. From the same time period also.
Peace,
ANDEE
The PATH cars were no doubt very modern-looking when they were first introduced, but I think they look incredibly dated nowadays. Sort of like the MBTA Blue and Orange line cars, you almost expect to find orange shag carpet on every interior surface. In my opinion the 2200's, by contrast, have withstood the test of time and still look as new today as they did 30 years ago. (Keep in mind I'm talking about strictly the exteriors; aside from exceptionally generous windows, nothing really stands out about the interiors of any of the current CTA cars.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Oh, don't get me wrong, David. I have yet to see the 2200s in person and I would be the first to admit that they are good looking piece of equipment. But, I have to stick with the PA1s until I see a 2200 up close and personal. If 'ya know what I mean.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think the Chi. 2200's are ugly! My favorite of CTA is the 2400's they are distinctive, the 2600's close but not as neat. 3200's probably my second favorite.
Not only were the 6000s based on PCC technology, 570 of them were built from parts cannibalized from Chicago's postwar Green Hornet PCCs.
The 2200s are a bit newer than the Redbirds, having been built in 1969. The newest Redbirds, the R-36s, entered service in 1963-64.
Steve, I've said it before and I'll say it again, there was no car like the Triplex. What a car and what a ride.
I'm sure those who rode them daily would say the same thing. I only wish I could have ridden on them when they were still around. I had one chance, and blew it.
It's hard to decide which is my favorite NYC Subway car (with the subways of the other cities, I have no idea!)
I've always had a thing for the R62/R62A (to be honest I can't tell them apart.) Maybe it's partly because the 1/9 route goes to Columbia/Barnard, where once lived a female whom I was gone for in my youth. But besides that, I think the 62's are a nice, sleek looking car. I'm looking forward to seeing some on the 7.
I also like the Worlds Fair R36s. Large windows look good on redbirds.
For the B division: I have a thing for the R42s. There's just a quiet dignity about them, and a look that just says New York. I also like the R68s, which are vaguely like a B-division version of the R62s.
The R44s and 46s are not good looking cars at all in my opinion. To be honest, the digital signs are a big part of the problem. Besides being generally awful, hard to read from a distance, and lacking in the subway's color/shape code, well they're also just plain ugly. Also, without the blue stripe, they just have this dull grey look about them. But there is something homey about the interior.
:-) Andrew
My vote is for the Philly-Camden bridge units which later ran on the Broad Street Subway-designed in the same vein as the Bluebirds except that these units actually provided regular service for many years
Everyone is mentioning the best looking and worst looking cars. I have not seen anyone mention the most sleek, ugly, beautiful and odd looking car ever made called.....................
THE SLANT 40!!! YEAH BAYBEE!!!
The R-40S's were nice looking when they were new. All the safety crap they added ruined them.
By the way, the ugliest interior I've seen is on the R110B, currently on the C line. I believe it's the R110B. It looks like the inside of a senior citizen home. There are no seats, and the lighting sucks.
Any other dinosaurs here remember Lucius Beebe? The Age of Steam , etc author.He referred to the railroads substituting the decor of the operating room for the grand car interiors of years past. And this referred to the 1950's give or take a few years. Of course the public wanted modern anyway.
I haven't seen the R110b but get the picture. You're probably right.
Any other dinosaurs here...
I resemble that remark! And yes, I remember Beebe - have most of his books, including some of his later ones in first editions that I bought new... he and Charles Clegg were a rare pair, especially for their day. They produced some of the greatest railfan books of all time. Their Virginia City was a prime example of opulence.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are no subway cars with no seats. What the hell are you talking about?
I'm really surprised that you didn't see his intended sarcasm.
Peace,
ANDEE
How is that sarcasm? If it is, it's a really lame attempt at it.
Lame? Maybe. Sarcasm? Definitely, referring to the lower seating capacity of the R110B. Just surprised you didn't catch it
Peace,
ANDEE
Then it wouldn't be sarcasm, it would be exaggeration.
The problem with the internet is that in real life one would be able to hear the tone and accentuation of one's voice and understand the meaning.
All words here are the same size. Emoticons and fonts just don't cut it since they don't come naturally.
As you all know, my vote for the best looking subway car would be The Almond Joy. Second place would go to The Kawasaki B-IV, third would be a tie between The Chicago PCC-based subway car and The PATCO fleet (both Budd and Vickers).
R36WF #9440 :).
As for an entire class, either PCCs or R40s!
My favorite looking car is the R15....one of my first memories of a NYC subway car were the double-circle window designs-Nick
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r15/r15-5971.jpg
Not to mention the R16-style porthole Storm Door (came out four years before the "16") and those neat little handholds, the kind they have in the R110B (R131) that you can just about fit you fist into.
If I remember correctly, some of the R15s had the Trane fans with the different diffusers, although this isn't mentioned in my Passenger Car data book.
I would have to say the Slant R40s were among the most distinctive-looking cars, although with all that junk on their "A" ends (which, for safety reasons, HAS to be there), they qualify as the UGLIEST subway car EVER. So outright ugly that all you can do is to love them.
wayne
Hey, Wayne, don't forget about that R-15 fan you discovered on that R-33S we were on in October.
I guess that fan is the oldest piece of working equipment still in revenue service on the subway, followed I guess, by the R-17 doors married to the R-26/28 cars.
You really had to see these in person and ride on them to appreciate how beautiful and unique they were.
Yes!!!
The Gloucesters were the 'Classics" of North America's subway systems.
Rock solid British engineering, and a delight of railfans. With the operating controls on the left (Exactly as the Gloucester Railway Carrage and Wagon Company built every tube car they produced.) ever railfan could imagine "being the motorman".
Heavy, and S-L-O-W.....
When the M-1's came for University, the TTC had to run them in the "low-rate" settings, otherwise they would run up against the red at every signal when following a Gloucester.
They are missed by lots of people.
Forgive my ignorance, but where is that?
:-) Andrew
They look to be Toronto
Peace,
ANDEE
The city is Toronto. The first picture shows a train of Gloucster type subway cars arriving on the southbound platform at Rosedale station, on the Yonge (Toronto's first) subway line. The second picture shows the last train of Gloucsters on the retirement fan trip in the somewhat abandoned Lower Bay station, which forms the connection between the Yonge-University-Spadina subway line and the Bloor-Danforth line.
The TTC's G1 subway cars, popularly known by the nickname "Gloucsters" after the name of the Gloucster Railway Carriage & Wagon Company in England that built them. Those subway cars were the original rolling stock used on the Yonge subway, which was the first subway line to be built in Canada, in Toronto from the time it opened in 1954 untill sometime in mid October of 1990 when the last train of those cars used as a rush hour extra was retired. That event took all the excitement out of waiting for a subway train on the Yonge-University-Spadina line.
You really had to see these in person and ride on them to appreciate how beautiful and unique they were.
Not forgetting the OPQR stock families on London's surface lines. Long gone, but several preserved, this is a wonderful art deco design.
Unfortunately, good photos are hard to find on the internet, this one is the best that I could find.
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~billdav/photos/rs039.jpg
there is also a photo in the 'vehicles' section at
http://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/depot/index.html
Note the flared bodywork at platform level and the 'streamlined' air vents.
count the los angeles red line subway to nowhere cars !! ugh!! ugly!
The Red Line Subway cars are better looking than The M-4 cars.
I'd have to disqualify any car that has rivets on the outside, is painted on the outside, has stainless steel on the inside, or is completely square in the front. I also don't like those ridges on the R32 -- looks like an old time garbage can. As for the R40, the look in the front is awful. It's hard to have a good look on the nose, yet still have a car that can be placed in the middle of the train. Hence the R40 disaster.
Got to go with the R46.
I think the red-painted London Underground cars look pretty nice myself.
Mark Michalovic
Pity you never rode the Bluebird or the Zephyr of the BMT Lines fleet. Not only were they art-deco snazzy, they were as smooth as a baby's ... ummm ... damned pretty but I guess too old to be appreciated now.
"Pretty" flies in the face of urban transit design, summarized best by NYCTA as "people movers" ... "pretty" was never part of the design concept of a box that carries geese and little more. The old railroads were concerned with "style, appointments and glitz" ... but subways were always designed and intended to be no better than shoeboxes, to seat as many and move as cheaply and quickly as possible. "Style" costs ... the last time the TA went for "style" it resulted in the R40 slants ... they learned. :)
OTOH the R44 for a time anyway put an end to what I call the cold efficiency of most postwar cars; unfortunately ithas returned. The R44/46 were a nice warm interior appearance even if they had too many bugs.
On the big roads the glitz was in first class. The old New York Central steel coaches that are on my list of favorites, except for the seating, were only a little more ornate than the IRT of their period that as many know are still my favorites.Massive and awesome [unfortunately subject to corrosion].
Externally the modified R40's were as nice looking as you could get, internally no. They were a good running piece of equipment.
I have a suggestion for the quaintest looking subway car-the BMT C types.They had a homemade look that really set them apart.They were really neat to ride also.Of course they were el cars but I think we're using subway broadly here,right?
I get what you mean but for the quaintest looking I vote for the Manhattan el MUDC cars which were also of course converted gate cars. Another homemade job, almost sad looking. I loved them, what little chance I had to ride them.
Also rode the C's their last year; neat and pretty lively even if ..oh well, if its classic I still like it! The Q's were BMT's perfection of the art in that respect. Lucky we had them as late as we did.
Too bad the Qs weren't able to keep their original trucks until the end.
Yes, they'd have been a good snappy train if they had. Unfortunately the wriring to the motors had to be routed to both trucks when the composite trucks were installed, and had the Peckham trucks from the 1300's which were much available when the Q's replaced them been put under the Q's the wiring would have to be routed back to the 2- motors on one truck, other truck a trailer, type. Essentialy hen they'd have had the original trucks and motors re-installed. OTOH they'd probably have been OK without trailers with the composite trucks.
YES!! THIS WEEKEND I GET TO RIDE A NEW CONNECTION, EVEN IF IT'S NOT EVEN A MILE LONG!!! MY UNLIMITED RIDE CARD IS READY!!
For the adventurous (not as long as what Jersey Mike and Pigs are doing now), you could do WMATA's new green line stations AND 63rd Street in a single weekend this weekend. You could also do one if traveling to both is not practical. At least you can cross over for free at any WMATA station (I could do my tour Saturday without paying more than one fare if I wanted).
Now I have a head ache, thanks
I don't know whether anyone else has seen this today, but the D was re-routed via the B from Pacific to Coney Isle, and the Q was terminating at prospect park. They said something about a tree on the tracks.
They were cutting branches this weekend on the Dorchester overpass, and this morning I noticed the trucks were there again. Maybe something fell in.
tree fell on the tracks around Cortelyou Road area, that's all I know. The entire Brighton line was out for a while.
while riding around pasadena after the rose parade mess is being hauled away we noticed the absolutely first of the first of the construction of the pasadena blue line being put up! the typical trailers posters signs etc. i guess we are going to finally get this light rail done by 2003 2004 !!
whooopee!!
Absoulutely amazing, especially after the LA Rail fiscal disaster. After that implosion, nobody thought any more rail construction could happen.
BTW, why are they calling it the Blue Line when the lines won't be connected. Typical LA thinking?
yhis is the sleight of hand whereby a "stand alone" shell agebcy was invented to run this project. Then the MTA 'gave' the "outside" agency its budget, because the MTA itself was under a consent decree to spend money on bus service. film at eleven. Mind you, I am generally in favor of most new rail projects, but in LA's case, way too much money was lost to corruption. Secondly, MTA has tended to spend more money on suburban "Metrolink" yhan on the local transit.
I like the 5 train but this is what's goin on, straight from the MTA page:
No trains between East 180 St and 149 St-Grand Concourse
Weekend, 10 PM Fri to 5 AM Mon, Jan 12 to 15
Take the 2 instead.
By The Way, about the R142's makin that loud noise, its the traction motors dude.
Okay. Get ready to make fun of me, laugh at me, and scar me for the rest of my tender 23 year old days. What does WMATA stand for? What railroad are you talking about. Remember, I'm (sniff) sensitive.
WMATA stands for Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority, AKA Metro.
What does WMATAGMOAGH stand for? Inquiring minds are curious.
WMATA was just explained, GM stands for General Manager (which I am not, but that is beside the point), and OAGH are my initals.
Can this be added to the Subway FAQ? It seems to get asked every so often.
I was wondering myself...
Whatever it stands for.. or however you pronounce
it... I've just the place for that name..
Where would that be?
Tonight between the hour of 4:30 PM and 5:30 PM the following happened on the Lexington Av line:
Train goes BIE on the uptown express track at 14th St (all trains routed via local track)
Traihn goes out of service at 77th St (uptown) - one #6 rouyed via Express from GC
Sick passenger at 28th St (uptown) - nothing is going anywhere
Sick passenger removed, things get moving - on the local track.
BIE cleared up - Express track back in use
Passenger altercation at 33rd St (uptown [naturally]) Local track (with re-routed trains blocked).
Situation at 33rd St cleared but re-routed train waiting south of 33rd St is not moving (no one knows why).
Passenger injury (woman slipped and her leg fell between the train and platform) at 125th St (uptown express [why not]). All trains routed via local from Gc to 125 and making local stops.
Train south of 33rd St. starts moving - still no reason what he was waiting for.
Injured passenger at 125th St finally removed. Express track back in service.
#4 train leaving 125th St stops south of 138th/Grand Concourse becuse he doesn't have the proper line up. Comtrol tells him to accept the line up given. No movement. Train finally moves after 6 minutes. (I am still on a train at 125th at this point).
All in all it took me 2 hours and 20 minutes to get home from Wall St.
Why did all this happen???? I'll tell you. I looked out the window and the reason was quite clear: There is a FULL MOON tonight.
This is totally unacceptable, I was on a slow moving 6 train from 42 st-125 street. This trip took just over 30 minutes.
It took me an hour & half to get home from Bowling Green to Hunt Point & normal getting home from work is 50 minutes. BWT I rode R142 #7250-#7241 & the rode is smooth.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
www.geocities.com/justin2669/NYCTransiTrans.html
That full moon will do it every time!!! (Believe me, I drive a transit bus for a living, all the whacko's are out in full force when the moon is full. Glad I have enough seniority so I don't have to work anything but very early morning shifts, home by 1 p.m.!!!)
Was there a GO involving the F today? I saw F signs pointing to the Broadway tracks at 34 St this afternoon, but the F was running normally. To further complicate things, most of the destination signs on the uptown F that came in said LAST STOP, except one car that had QUEENS EXPRESS/TO 179 ST QUEENS, and the last car, whose signs were blank.
My F ran normally. However it was overcrowded, so perhaps it was delayed.
:-) Andrew
Those signs were for the benefit of R riders the past weekend who's brains turned to mush after realizing the R wasn't running and needed special signs to augment the 10 or so large normal signs pointing to the F.
> most of the destination signs on the uptown F that came in said LAST STOP
That seems to happen a lot. Also, the signs are often set for the wrong direction. Whenever I see something like that, I am tempted to go to the conductor and point it out, but I usually don't have time. Actually, though, I have alerted conductors about this twice. They seemed to be annoyed at first, but then they thanked me!
- Lyle Goldman
Sometimes the signs are set and due to a car defect, the message posted does not go thru the whole train. Sometimes the motorman and conductor both have to program the sign sign code.
I saw an amusing TA poster today, (paraphrasing) "During service advisories, Know Which Way to GO," with the GO encircled with red arrows. Is that supposed to be a play on words that few people will get? :)
They're all over the place. It can be taken in one of two ways:
Cattle: A way to go around the problem (graphic makes little sense)
Employee/Railfan: Get around a GO (makes perfect sense).
Two identical ships will carry 60 freight cars each between Mobile, Alabama, and Coatzacoalcos, Veracruz, beginning this month. The ships are on their way to Mobile now. A ship is expected to leave each port every 4 days. Connection in Mobile is with all four U.S. large railroads; connection in Coatzacoalcos is with Ferrosur. This service, said to cut time and cost for shipping to Mexico City and southern Mexico compared with all rail, will be provided by CG Railway, Inc. Aqueous ROW maintenance in Mobile is provided by our tax dollars via Army Corps of Engineers. Doug Diamond Travel Service is organizing a walking tour in Coatzacoalcos.
At 8pm a consist of R142's headed northbound thru Brooklyn Bridge. I was in a downtown #4 and didn't notice till I heard the diesel rev up. Too dark between the two trains to catch unit numbers.
i can never catch them in delivery to take pics
You need to take a trip to Yonkers. I've seen 3 of them, on trucks.
-Hank
[You need to take a trip to Yonkers. I've seen 3 of them, on trucks]
True, if any of you have missed my pics I posted here of Yonkers, visit nyrail.cjb.net for them.
Here's one:
R142s and Metro-North FL-9s: a great contrast!
-Dan
Yep, that's a great contrast. Nice photo! The sight of a pair of back-to-back FL-9's brings back memories of growing up in the Fordham area and seeing them by the multitudes back in the early 1960's.
And with all the bitching and moaning about the R142's, perhaps it is time for people to realize that those FL-9's have been causing the railroads major headaches for up to 44 years now. They have always been a problem locomotive, just as the R142's are having their share of teething problems....and just as LIRR's DE/DM30 loco fleet is having. Sure, the FL-9's are still around, but they have NOT been without major problems. I seem to recall how they had a propensity for catching fire when they were in their "youth" just like their counterparts on the LIRR do nowadays. They also had their problems with third rail gaps, just as LIRR's DM's do nowadays.
History always seems to repeat itself.
Lovely photo, hope you don't mind but I made a copy for my own use.
Mr t__:^)
It's interesting that the R142's from Kawasaki are being delivered with the red and gray stripe on them already. IIRC, the Bombardier units do not have the red and gray stripe when they are delievered. I may be wrong about that. I'll have to take a closer look next time I catch a delivery.
Shawn.
The 142s already have the stripes on them when they're delivered. Perhaps the darkness is playing games with your vision.
-Stef
At around the same time this evening, I was on a northbound #2. About five R142's were being "diesled" northbound on the express track near Nevins St. The number on at least one of them was six thousand-something.
Hey Dave, what's up? No pics (hehe)?
In the latest news on R-142 deliveries, Cars 6396-6400 have arrived on NYCT property. Diesel 68 led the charge with RD334 (R-15) and Diesel 63 pulling 6400-6399-6398-6397-6396, Diesel 901 at the trailing end, long hood forward. Sighting was at 20:53 hours at Jackson Av.
-Stef
Locomotive 901 was cut loose from the transfer and was just spotted travelling solo. I assume it's going back to Linden Yard for what could be another R-142 pickup later on....
Hey Mike, if you're reading this and you hear a diesel blast by you, it's probably Loco 901 coming your way.
-Stef
Like I said, I was on a downtown #4; even if I had gotten off at Brooklyn Bridge they were already passing through. It's unlikely I could have caught up with them were I to have backtracked.
how many trains are in revenue service right now?
I don't know how many are actually in service but there are 14 Bombardier trainsets and 14 Kawasaki trainsets on the property. This is from the delivery notes, which I assume is accurate. The delivery notes say that 5 of the Bombardier trainsets are in service and also 5 Kawasaki trainsets, which I'm not sure is accurate or not.
Shawn.
Not sure about 142As, but I can tell you that R-142s 6311-20, 6326-35, 6336-45, and 6411-20 are all in service.
6326-35 and 6336-45 have undergone car swaps, on two occasions. They were paired together as is, and were then swapped so that 6331-35 and 6341-45 were together, with 6326-30 and 6336-40 out on the sidelines. 6336-45 are back together again as of 1/12/01.
-Stef
Whats up with the 6301-6310 set? Ive seen it layed up by Unioport Yard for the past couple of days. That was the only R142 that I got to ride.......
Train#1991Mike
I don't know. Funny but it was stored next to the original Kawasaki Set, 7211-20 at Unionport. What happens to that train is anyone's guess. 6391-95 and 6406-10 were also outside.
I'm wandering what will the next set be to enter service? Haven't seen any sets in road testing though. 6421-30 perhaps?
-Stef
today 6301-6310 was being tested on white plains road as a 5 train.
> This is from the delivery notes, which I assume is accurate.
Only if the delivery has come to my attention.
I don't have someone at NYCT faxing me the details you know...
-Dave
Was it a Bombardier or Kawasaki? It probably was 6391-95 or 7311-7315 for all I know, or even 6436-6440. Anyway, sorry you couldn't see the numbers, mr. pirmann. Well, adios!
--CWalNYC (8^)#
Definitely a 6xxx, Stef already posted the numbers. The Kawasakis aren't being delivered that way anyway.
-Dave
Try 6396-6400.
-Stef
So they do go up the Lex. I was thinking of going to Utica or Atlantic to see if they would on the 7Av or the Lex. Well now I know. Funny, the set is going up the more busier Lex than 7Ave......
Train#1989Mike
What are the advantages of sending them up Lexington rather than 7th Ave?
Shawn.
Attention Subtalkers:
Another reminder to attend the hearing! For details, paste the following into your browser:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/communications/hearing-63st.htm
I finally have my pictures from BMTman's Brooklyn Waterfront Railway tour on December 10, plus pictures from the "aftertour" of the 36 St Yard, the Pieter Claeson Wyckoff house, and a highrail at LIRR East New York: www.geocities.com/ripta42. Also, old pictures from Autumn in New York at Shore Line, the 2000 Bus Festival, and some RIPTA bus pictures. It looks like the humble beginnings of a transit page :).
I realy liked the Branford photos, e.g. "Me operating 6688"; the group shot (myself, Bill Newkirt, Stef, Jeff H., Rockaway (something don't remember his whole handle), BMTman).
Also, for those that want to see the inside of the Mineola check it out.
And, for trolley buffs you have many shots that could have been taken 50 or 100 years ago ... great work !
The Brooklyn Waterfront group, for me only the shots at the TA scrap yard came up.
Mr t__:^)
That's Far Rockaway A Train. Who is the guy sitting next to BMTman?
The Brooklyn Waterfront page is working OK for me, although it can be slow-loading. Maybe I should stick with the link style and forget the thumbnails.
Yeah, you got some good shots there, Mike.
I really appreciate that spur-of-the-moment one you got of the high rail vehicles at LIRR East NY station.
BMTman
Thanks! I don't think I've ever loaded a roll of film into a camera faster than I did at East New York...
The second time was a charm ... agree with The BMTman, a nice selection of photos, incl.
- Lots of old "Rs" and diesels in the MOW yard; the trash fleet (R-62 look-a-likes); Culver Shuttle ramp (too bad you didn't get a photo of the portals).
- NYCHRR #21 was on the fence when we came back the Fri before New Years (she's listed as retired in the Trains July 2000 article). BTW on page 62 of that article is a photo of Rick Abramson. That Fri we saw him at the controls of, I think, a loaned SW1500 and a long string of box cars.
- We did also ride a NewFlyer, sorry no photo for our BusTalk friends.
Mr t__:^)
Well I got up there OK, but out idea of starting with the SIRR anf the SIF was a big mistake. Instead of finding a wonderful Route 100-esque suburban hi-speed rail line with B&O high CPL signals I got a slow, run down piece of shitte that had been resignaled with high dwarf signals. By the time we got to 1 South Ferry 9 it was 9:40 and we knew we were sorta doomed. We tried to call Heypaul for advice, but he wasn't home like he said he'd be. The final straw was when Pigs' dad called saying he had forgotten his keys and wouldn't be able to get in after work. Anyway out little dry run taught us some things.
1: We need a waorking watch with a strap.
2: We need more people.
3: We need easier access to the log book and camera. Even in SRO conditions.
4: A video recording would be cool.
And some positives...
-There's a chineese place on the walk route on Bedford Park Blvd that can be called ahead for lunch.
-Despite a 20oz and 12oz soda I didn't have to go to the bathroom for 6 hours.
-The walking transfers were not hard or scary.
I'll post more complete details after this.
SIR can be pretty slow, those R44OH's are kinda slow. But the express is fast, it can reach over 50mph. But it's directional and only during rush hours (to St.George in AM, Tottenville PM).
It is still a very scenic railway, even though a bust for speed buffs.
You need an SIR express train. Our last field trip took a Great Kills Express (First Stop Great Kills) and we did MOVE. Morning rush is harder since you have trains go into service at different points along the line. PM Rush it is just St. George so the line moves more efficently.
When (read IF) they double signal both tracks you will see improvements in the morning rush.
The those at the MTA had maybe invested in something with the acceleration of the PATCO train or a Route 100 car it wouldn't be as cab. Those R40's just trundle along like its Sunday. They seriously lack motovation.
Considering that the average distance between stations is 1/2 mile, there's no way to get 'moving'. From Grasmere to Clifton is the longest distance between stations, but it's uphill westbound.
The signals are B&O co-po, and they are the original signals from the last time the B&O resignaled the line.
-Hank
Stupid B&O! I wanted to see some hi-signals, not high dwarfs. I real high signal is about as big as a PRR position light signal but usually migh taller with its marker lights and such.
So ride the NEC. Those signals are used where speed and distance are major factors in construction of the line. The fastest train SIR has ever seen probably went no faster than 60, and the sightlines are such that bilboard size signals make no economic sense.
Trains are there for transportation, not for entertaining railfans skewed view of them.
-Hank
Riding the NEC won't help. Amtrak colourized position lights are different than B&O colour position lights. To see those you have to ride the Capitol Limited or on the Three Rivers between Youngstown Line and Willard OH. The change in signals also indicated a lowering of standards on the SIRR. The SIRR should see service and speeds akin to the LIRR or PATCO. Its a real Railroad, not some subway.
I guess you've been told. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Sure it should. And pigs should always fly first-class on American.
-Hank
And pigs should always fly first-class on American.
Why?
Not you, just pigs in general. There was a story recently about it in the news.
-Hank
I remember that story now.
SIR express is pretty good. I remember the SI field trip and that SIR ride rocked.
There are two afternoon north(east?)bound express trains. #93 skips Stapleton and Tompkinsville. #87 runs EXP Tompkinsville to Prince's Bay, then all stops until Grasmere, express to St. George. It skips more stops than most of the AM expresses.
I assume we should substitute Tottenville for Tompkinsville.
-Hank
Oops...
Assume NOTHING
Peace,
ANDEE
The final straw was when Pigs' dad called saying he had forgotten his keys and wouldn't be able to get in after work.
Incorrect. I thought that was the case, but it wasn't.
And my father doesn't have any work keys.
>>. By the time we got to 1 South Ferry 9
>> it was 9:40 and we knew we were sorta doomed..
Yep, you guys "got to me" alright... :)
...Did somebody say "video recording"???
To get to my SubWay 5K I had to catch the 6:38 train out of Trenton. My mom was going to drop me off on her way to work. Looking at a map I realized I could get 5 minutes of extra sleep by using the new Hammelton station. Well getting there was a breeze. I got out of the car and I was basically trackside. I had arrived at like 6:32 and I had just gotten my ticket when a train pulled in. I ran on it to only find it was an express. Well I desided to get off at Princeton Jct and catch the following local. Before I could de-train a flood of people poured in and filled the near emply car. I got out on the platform to wait with another equally large crowd. I assumed they were there for the following local, but I was wrong. About 5 minutes later an Amtrak Clocker pulled up. It was pulled by a coughing and wheezing E60 and it was already SRO. I watched the platform of people stuff themselves into the train and I wondered how those people could pay Amtrak prices for such a shitty ride. Heck they could have taken the earlier express, gotten a seat and saved a few bucks. Probably would have pulled into Penn b4 the E60. Only like 20 ppl were left waiting for the local which soon arrived and we all got good seats. The train never fully got SRO even by Rahway (of couse the first 2 cars could never platform.) Why are those Princetonians such gluttans for punishment?
Clockers accept NJT monthly and weekly passes. They probably shoved themselves in so they could get breakfast on the way to work.
Pardon my ignorance, but what is SRO? Also, I took a clocker back from NYC to Philly on Jan. 1. It was almost empty and there was no cafe service!
Standing room only.
Hmm, I don't remember people having to attend work on Jan 1. It was some sort of holiday.
In comparison to my train from Philly to NY on the 31st, when it was too crowded for conductors to walk up the aisles to even check tickets, I thought those people might have to return around the same time as I was.
It's all about time. The Clocker from P-Junct takes :54 minutes to Penn. An NJT express (local to Metropark, then express) takes 1:02. The local all the way takes 1:12. 18 minutes one way is 36 minutes per day and 3 hours a week.
For commuters with families and especially small children (who go to bed early), those 3 extra hours make a huge difference. Before we had our baby, I never understood why saving 10 minutes was so important to some people, but now it's a lot clearer.
CG
You could also make the arguement that by getting a seat where you can sleep, read or work you can save even more time per week for family. If you can guarentee a 45 minute nap on the train you can go to bed later etc etc.
As few of you knowq I have really only taken 2 trips on the NYCS. A trip from the WTC to Pellham Bay and back to Penn Station back in 1994 and a 1999 trip from CGT to Penn Station.
This was my frist real trip where I could see of all those mythic places you all talk so fondly of. I was also able to sample all those 'R' things you prattle on and on about.
Here's what we did. After getting off the SIF I made an ass of myself funbling w/ my MetroCard at the (1) South Ferry (9) station (long live metal slivers!) so that sort of hung a cloud over me. After waiting a while a 1 train finally came. We changed at chambers for an express 2/3. Well the first train to arrive was a Redbird 2! This was my first real trip on the Redbird and it ROCKED! The T/O had his cab door open until 72nd St. but it was still cool. Those Redbird cabs look so Spartan compared to modern cabs. I also like the general ghetto look of the Redbirds and how they tend to soak up the ambient light when they enter a station. At 96th we changed back to a 1 and lo and behind it was the same one we left at chanbers. We rode to 242 and then back to 207 to change to the A. We then went to 145 to catch a D to Bedford Park where we walked to the 4 with a chineese food stop along the way. I noted that the 4 line had been re0signaled with US&S equipment including A-10 penumatic switches! The 4 took us to Grand Concourse where I saw an ITR signal on the 2 that took us to 135th. We changed to a 3 and went to 148th for a little Harlem field trip transfer to the D at 145. We took the D south to 47th 50th to hop a Q. The Q was a made of those rockin R "Slant" 40's. We barely caught the train and he had to pass through like 6-7 cars to get to the window up front. The greatest thrill I had all day was passing through the slant end of an R40 while it zoomed through the tunnel. It was SO cool. From 21st we talked to the Queensboro counter where we ordered a number 7 IRT meal to 5th ave. We hopped a B so that I could go over the Manny B (before it falls down). I wanted pigs to get off at Pacific so we could take the Panama canal to the Q and then go to Sheepshead bay and drop in on Heypaul (who was still not returning my phone calls!). Pigs wanted to get home (his car is still at Tottenville) so we hooked up with the R and then the s51 bus over the Narrows and then on the SIRR for one last ride back to Tottenville. Pigs drove me back to Rahway via the Gothels bridge and I was just in time to catch the 5:14 train to Trenton.
BTW I had 2 brief layovers at rahway and Trenton and they are both great places to railfan. Island platforms get you out in the action. They are both located at interlockings so the signals tell you what's comming and both sites have trains going through at speed.
One problem: It's the S53. The S51 was the schedule that was in the bus.
I just rode back home from Trenton on an R7 train. Unlike NJT SEPTA does not put a metal plate over the Railfan Portal that lets you see out the front. They also have real PRR PL cab signals in plain sight. By looking out the front window and the Speedo I determined that R7 service is very good. We hit 85 mph several times and frequently got over 70 between each station stop. Acceleration was very fast and most stations had nice facilities. From FAIR to GRUNDY we were following a deadhead move and I got to see the cab signals (and real signals) dance around from Clear to Approach Medium and Approach.
I've been on the R1 many times - always a good, clean, fast run.
On NJT I take for granted that I ride in the cab more often than in the coach. I guess that metal plate does get annoying...
A certain document sort of fell into my posession this week. It was given to me by a collector of subway memorabelia via one of my employees. It's a sign - the kind usually found taped to the inside of a subway car window. This particular one (in absolute mint condition) is announcing the end of "Brooklyn Bridge El Service" on Sunday March 5, 1944 at 12:00 Noon - issued by the Board of transportation. Before I frame it and hang it in my den, I will attempt to scan it for anyone who would like to see it.
Steve
If you could, that'd be WONDERFUL ... I had been trying to figure out exactly when Park Row had closed ... had it pinned somewhere between 1938 and 1948 but couldn't figure out the year it actually happened.
That is a great find, Steve! I sure hope that you will scan it!
The next one you should try to locate is the termination of service for Oct 13th, 1950.
[A certain document sort of fell into my posession this week.]
Isn't life great ! The joy of this hobby is the way most of us teat each other. Some days are better then others, so I'm happy for you !
I too had a interesting AM. A driver friend lost his dad over the holidays & got the job of making the arangements & cleaning out his place in Calif. Since his wife won't fly he missed them at Christmas.
The last time he was here we talked about that for a while. Previously he has brought me some odd items, which I happyly traded him for MetroCards. Today he got a big bunch from me & in return I got a 1947 American Leagon Subway Map. I don't recall seeing it as one of the those on display at the Transit Museum. Anybody know if it's rare or not ? It's in pritty good shape so I intend to keep it.
Like me he prefers to TRADE vs. E-bay or thru the mail. The only sad note is that he won't be having any more Denver quarters to trade.
Mr t__:^)
What sort of Denver quarters are you looking for? All we ever see around here are coins minted in our fair city.
Just the Denver version of the new quarters. This friend's dad & I would swap Philly for Denvers. We can talk about this more off-line if you would like.
BTW, Looks like Doug & I will be on the upper West Side Monday & be taking the IND up Central Park West ... be thinking of you when we do it.
Mr t__:^)
Everyone in this area is clamoring for the Denver mint version of the new state quarters.
The only ones available around here are the Philadelphia mint version!
If you really want an out-of-area quarter, the best place to try is getting change in the shops at the nearest airport (if you're northwest of Washington, I guess it would be Dulles or BWI). Air travelers from the western states often drop off some of their money there, just as east coast filers may leave some Philadelphia coinage in western airports.
Yes, please try to scan it. That would be terrific!
--Mark
Interesting. I was under the impression that el service terminated when a fire gutted the Park Row station in 1944 and service was terminated rather than the station being rebuilt. Obviously, that cannot be true if this sign is authentic.
I assume the sign is authentic but I will attempt to have it authenticated at the TA museum. I hope to have it scanned over the weekend and will E-mail the GIF to anyone who asks.
Put me down for that if you would, please.
I will attempt to scan it for anyone who would like to see it.
Since we're sharing, I've put 2 posters from my collection online:
This is the notice of the closing of the original H&M 33rd St. station due to the construction of the 6th Ave IND.
And here is the notice of the opening of the WTC PATH station (and therefore the closing of the old Hudson Terminal station).
If you email rather than post your scan, please send me a copy (to the address in the header of this post). Thanks!
Doh! Cut and paste strikes again. The second link in my previous post
should have sent you here. Sorry about that!
Terry, thanks for posting the first notice. The one that I got was in such excellent shape, I questioned the authenticity. However after seeing the font & style of yours, mine sure looks genuine.
I have a huge assortment of these (mostly fare change notices) and they are almost all in surprisingly good shape for their age. Some have minor tears, and they all have unusual folds (as you can see from the holes in mine, it was filed in an old-style binder with many others). Some of them have poor-quality printing on them, but it seems to be more of a printing defect than anything due to aging. One thing that may have helped preserve these is that they were printed on good-quality glossy paper. Much newer ones that were printed on cardboard stock haven't generally held up as well - the surfaces have built up all sorts of grunge.
That date, March 5, 1944, 8 days before I was born.
Anyway, what was the date of the Sands St Terminal fire that seemed to preclude the end of BB El service? Do we have any info on that fire? Do the NY TIMES or NY Daily News Archives have info on the fire?
On April 20th,1946 a fire also destroyed the Bridge-Jay St el station along with three el cars,
I'd love to know the numbers of the three destroyed el cars.
What are we talking about here, Sabotage. This was right in the thick of WWII. You would think that all forms of rapid transit were kept running during this time. Especially with gasoline rationing and every other form of homefront activity, like get to and from (war) work.
WWII was over months before Apr.20th,1946
I had a very good trip today, but the one thing that stood out was how slow everything was. From the SIRR trains that rarely went above 35 and a speedo that only went to 50 to express trains that barely moved faster than locals it seems the whole system's get up and go, got up and went. Everybody is always ragging on SEPTA and how much it sucks, but the NYCS makes SEPTA's MFL and BSS look like solid gold. It makes PATCO look like a pumkin sized diamond. I'm sorry I have to be so harsh, but I am used to a T/O pushing the controler all the way over when he's ready to leave a station and keeping it there until its time to slow down for the next stop. I'm used to trains actually ACCELERATING with some force when the controler is moved. Those trains had worse acceleration than the Vermonter powered by a single F40! And what is up with those trucks. They are hard riding poorly handling. I think its time for the TA to refit its cars with Pioneer III's! I think its time for the TA to get its rear in gear, litterally.
Sadly, that's the one thing I really recall from my most recent visit to New York. For some reason I remember travelling at a pretty good clip on the (2)/(3) express on previous trips, but maybe that's just my memory playing tricks on me. I guess this time was unusual because I had ridden the MBTA, SEPTA, NYCTA and the CTA all within a week of each other (I was doing a lot of travelling -- At one time I had a MetroCard, an MBTA monthy pass and a CTA Transit Card in my wallet at the same time!), and the slowness of the NYCTA was readily apparent after spending time on these other systems. Barring a few perpetual slow zones, CTA trains routinely get up to about 55 MPH between stops. The MBTA Red Line goes 50 MPH between most stops. I didn't ride SEPTA much, but their subways seem reasonably fast as well. On the New York subways, particularly the Sea Beach line to Coney Island and the other B-division routes I took, I felt like I was stuck in one huge slow zone. But with a normal slow zone, you crawl through a particular area until you finally feel the welcome tug of the G-forces as the train accelerates to normal speed. In New York, I kept anticipating that pull of the acceleration but it just never came. (sniff)
In terms of comfort, most of the trains I rode were reasonably comfortable, with one exception being the R30-something tool shed I ended up catching on the Sea Beach line. Slow as molasses, terrible ride, and NO VIEW! Next time I head over to Coney Island somebody remind me to take the Culver!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well because NYC transit can't get it's tracks safe enough for speed.
The TA over-reacts to each and every accident with a slowdown. Things are much slower at the wye after Dekalb between the A/B tracks and H tracks leading to the MB, ever since the accident on the Q train.
Tunnels leak, tracks are falling apart, in general there just isn't enough money going into the subway. And whatever is, contractors are overpaid.
It aint as fun as it used to be, even since I started riding two years ago. But there are still certain spots for speed, the 34th-W4th dash on 6th ave express, the BMT 60th street tube, and Queens Blvd express Queensbound.
You mean the Hippo's (R68's) don't you?
No, they were much older than the R68's, with small windows and corrugated sides. Not sure what particular model they were, but they were about as old and decrepit looking as the redbirds on the IRT. Based on the photos here on nycsubway.org, they were either R32's or R38's.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The R32 has a window and the R38 is only on the A and C. WHAT CAR ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??
The R-32.
The lack of view is a symptom of the Sea Beach line, not of the car.
And why do you think he was talking about the railfan window anyway?
Are you talking about Wayne's favorite Slant R40s?
Chaohwa
They were R-32s. R-32s have 10% smaller windows then R-38s. This comes after I realized my arm fits on the windowsill next to the rollsign of the R-38, but not the R-32. The door pocket area is larger on the R-32, thus smaller windows.
Sure they're decrepit looking now. Wait until 2015 when they're retired.
Here's a pic of my fav R-32, of course:
5k. How many of you have mono and bi color signature pictures that take up less than that?
The R32's look fine, especially those with the nw black floors. Wanna see decrepit? Check out the CI overhauled r42's on the J/M and Z....
I was on a B train that got GO'd to run express all the way down Sea Beach. It was a pleasant suprise, but man, it was so slow. I'd swear that we just crawled past each station at no more than 15 mph.
Sounds painful, you have my sympathy.
Peace,
ANDEE
Culver stinks too. I haven't done Sea Beach but I've done West End and Brighton. The Brigton trip involved changing to a Q which ran local because of a GO. Never caught up to the D I had been on.
LET US NOT FORGET THE LEXINGTON AVENUE LINE, THE SLOWEST RUSH HOUR EXPRESS SERVICE IN YEARS! I'm soory to say that, but it is sort of true!
I'd have to second that.
It's VERY simple. Lack of Field Shunting. After the aformentioned accidents, NYCT's action was to remove the field shunting, and install loads of Timers.
Why so slow?
You obviously haven't been paying attention during the past
few years as the technical reasons for this have been discussed
and discussed
and discussed
....
I never read those posts because I didn't have any first hand experiance to make me interested.
There has been plenty of reasons why the;y slowed the subway trains down. I would imagine a lot of overkill like everything in this country. But what about the future is there any hope that the trains one day will be back to make New York the great system that it really is? After all you have new cars arriving, new signal technoloy.
It would require something the TA has all but stopped doing - replacing track rather than polishing it until they're polishing the ties. I remember around the time that I left the TA, they were redoing the 4th avenue express (south of DeKalb) tracks with all new ties and rails and when it reopened after several months, it was "wind it up" territory and one hell of a fast ride. But it shut down the line for months, something the TA doesn't have the moxie or the dinero to pull these days.
Speed requires track maintenance and that in turn requires patience on the part of riders as sections of line are closed to allow the work. Perhaps this is the problem?
Well, Dave's got an archive, so... start reading! There are only about 185,000 posts... consider it a semester's worth of Subway 101.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I never read those posts because I didn't have any first hand experiance to make me interested
Never mind how much hand experience you have! You're the
one who was complaining that there aren't enough posts to
read here to keep you occupied.
In summary: the TA in its infinite wisdom created a serious
system safety issue over the course of fifty years and was
finally compelled to do something about it when the NTSB
investigated the 1995 fatal crash on the WB bridge. As is
typical for most public and even private agencies, they over-
reacted and now have a serious passenger capacity problem
just as ridership has reached 30-year record highs.
c.f. field shunting
The TA should have upgraded its signal system a long time ago. Systems like PATCO have ATO and ASC. SEPTA Broad Street line reached 70 MPH and they still use trippers like NYC.
ATC (Automatic Train Control) is the generic term, ASC is specific to the LIRR and I've only seen BSS trains max out at 63 and the MFL hit 55. The signaling system is not to blame for all these current woes. SEPTA uses the the exact same system. Track and route conditions plat a big part. SEPTA lines generally run straight. On the old el portions and the curves the MFL is just as slow as the NYCS. However they have much better acceleration to quickly recover from the slowness.
The real differance in the signaling systems is that SEPTA has blocks long enough for hi speed operation. You can check out my signal diagrams in this website. On higher speed sections the signals are placed farther appart. On the e/b 30th to 15th srtetch signals are 4 blocks appart. Same with the BSS express tracks. The TA should go through the system and remove every other signal and splice the wires through.
Alother thing is that they want trains traveling at linespeed to stop w/in a block after being tripped. The whole point of multi-block signaling is that the train can travel faster than to stop w/in one block. The TA needs to associate a speed restriction with the Approach signal aspect (25 or 30 mph). The problem with this is that the TA dosen't really trust its T/O's to obey this speed restriction like locomotive engineers are trusted. I don't know if this is founded or not, but I generally suspect that T/O's lack the training and professionalism of engineers.
hey did anyone hear about that tree that fell at corteluy road today? damn what a bottleneck, man oh man had to go and take the B16 after they discharged my Q train at prospect park. how is that going? anyone got hurt? i hope not.
When did this happen? I was on the Q Train tonight at around 6:00, and there didn't seem to be any trouble.
- Lyle Goldman
There was normal PM rush hour service... Only heard about the tree here.
I dunno, son. Some whack tree fell on the f_____g tracks and clogged up da big D. Probably some f_____g cops trying to keep us down.
Yo, da mo-fu@%in tree fell on da Mo-fu@%in tracks and the Mo-fu@%in TA peeople picked up da mo-fu@%in tree and da mo-fu@%in trains started runnin again. Ya know where I'm commin from?
Dey whacked da tree? Whaddid da tree do to earn getting whacked? Heh. Fugeddaboudit.
Yo, just sos you nose, Fuggeddaboudit, is spelt wit two gees. Awright, right!
avid
I swear dey was dere when I dropped dem off ... musta been inventory shrinkage. Yeah, dat's da ticket ...
Hey, what is this? Italian bashing day? Ah fuggedaboudit!
Nah, a more generic Bwookwyn accent ... whaddya want? I was a boy from Villa Avenue, 204th street, Bainbridge Avena, Da Bronix ... Da udda guys was busting chops so of course I hadta get into da act. Bustini, bustini ...
He made the Tree and Offer the Tree couldn't refuse, but the tree tried to refuse it. See, Thank you G*D Father.
At least that tree didn't fall onto the Sea Beach line.
Did anyone yell, "TIMMMMMMM-BUHHHHHHHHH!!!!"
If one did, would anyone notice?
Nah, It was ebonics trashing, but somehow it turned into a bad lesson in Brooklyneese.
Yo, waddup with yo funky spellin' n' all dat stuff??
;-)
Yo' If ya dont wanna chill wit da boyz don't be quizzen us wit no silly queztions, my man.
Did the tree pay the fare or did it fare evade into the system??
jus' tryin' ta keep real and on da down-low.
Peaaaace out.
I don't recall if I asked this, but I wanted to know if there is a signal that controls movement of equipment to and from the Bay Ridge Line and into Linden. Mike or Doug, what about it?
-Stef
There is a signal at the gate at the end of the Linden yard, but IIRC it's entrance vs. exit signal ... was dead when the BMTman & I walked the Bayridge.
Mr t__:^)
I hate to ask..I've been gone too long..where's the Linden Yard "at"?I don't remember any transit connections to the bay ridge line, sounds like it was a good idea. I'd guess a connection to the IRT New Lots or the L line in the Livonia-Canarsie area.
Yes, Ed, you're pretty much on the mark.
Linden Yards (aka Linden Shops) has an address/entrance located on Linden Blvd. near the corner of Rockaway Ave. In actuality it is the old LIRR/ex-PennCentral storage facility of ENY.
NYCTA acquired it sometime in the 70's or 80's I would guess.
It is kept non-electrified as it is used primarily as a track-fabrication plant. But, as you're heard here at SubTalk it is also used as a interchange yard when New York & Atlantic Railway drops off new equipment (like the R-142's) for NYCTA.
BMTman
Now I get the picture.I recall going by their on the then LL and seeing box cars being unloaded..and I don't mean by the consignees; I"m sure you get the picture. Needless to say shortly thereafter cars were no longer spotted there..at least not loads. Many locals got new furniture that Saturday afternoon I remember.. Is there a connection to both divisions there?
[Is there a connection to both divisions there?]
Yes, a single track that begins in the track fabrication yard climbs an El structure that splits into a "Y" whereby the left or 'main-branch' leads into the center track of the New Lots Avenue Line (just outside of the eastbound platform at Junius Street). The arm that branches off to the right leads into the Canarsie Line's P1 track (wrong-railing of course).
This El structure was built approximately 1989 or 90 and replaces the previous LIRR/NYCT direct-connection that existed just north of the New Lots Avenue station between the Bay Ridge Line and the Canarsie Line's southbound platform (a remnant of the switch connection is still visible, as well as the gated chain-link fence).
If you're ever able to make it out east again, I'll have to give you a tour...:-)
BMTman
[... This El structure was built approximately 1989 or 90 and replaces ...]
The great photo op there shows how much in a hurry they were, i.e. one of the abandoned set of tracks of the Bayridge still goes right THROUGH that overpass ... that's right the tracks go right up to the structure & continue on the other side.
Mr t__:^)
The connection to the L was cut (just a piece of track was removed).
As I'm sure you know you could also get to the B & N/R by taking the Bayridge to the end, crossing over to the NYCHRR, then the SBK and entering the system at 9th Ave on the B. Although the last time I was there with the BMTman that piece of track was still missing in the street (2nd Ave) just before SBK.
Mr t__:^)
Stef, there is a homeball just before a gated fence that leads to the Linden Yard "Y" connection. When Thurston and I saw it last year it was a "dead" signal (no illumination of any color -- not "online" or otherwise taking electric power).
Within the past few months it has been re-activated due to the deliveries of the R-142's into the system. It is a "call-on", being in the Red-signal mode as it's normal setting. Which makes sense since the connection leads to an active mainline part of the subway system (New Lots or Canarise/14th Street).
BMTman
Due to switch replacement at Queens Plaza, all Queens bound E,F & R trains will be operating via the 63 St. connection from 12:01 a.m. Saturday until 5:00 a.m. Monday. This will be the first time 63 St. will be used in passenger service.
It already has, I missed it. This is the first time it's planned to be used. (The one day I take the 7, a broken rail in 53rd!).
'Iwent through it last Fri night on an F
Why does this station get an escalator? Who in their right mind approved it? Most other stations see more people one night than this does in a week! It's one of those "enter to start" things, not sure if that's what you have to do since I never see it moving but its never blocked off.
Maybe in anticipation of the A/B track closure. Bowery is reasonably close to Grand, where people who normally use the B (B trains seem to get most passenger discharge and pick up than D or Q at Grand).
Those people may shift to the M which does run to Bay Parkway during rush hours. I wonder if the M will be made to go to Bay Parkway 24/7 after the flip?
The escalator makes me think the TA is anticipating a shift from Grand to Bowery when the switch happens. Let them increase M service to Bay Parkway, which will draw alot of people over to Bowery. If they don't than the escalator plan was stupid.
Was that escalator there before, or is it being installed now?
Doesn't anybody think the escalator was ALWAYS there? The station is pretty deep, it's hell climbing all of those stairs like at Coney Island (stupid ramps built for crowds that station will never again have).
I know it was always there. I implied that by mentioning the "Enter to start" thing. Everyone knows the TA stopped putting in new ones like that in the early 90s, or so I thought.
It's been there for years.....more than 15.
In three cardboard boxes today, guarded by three MTA employees, the notices were escorted from 47-50th to Roosevelt ave, where they will remain in a locked room until they are distributed among the Queens Blvd line stops. Here are some examples of what I saw:
Large posters:
E F R reroute (this weekend)
E F reroute (late night)
E F R Trains will take routes they never have before
Small handouts:
E F R reroute (this weekend)
E F R reroute (this weekend, en español)
E F R trains will take routes they never have before
Who times a downgrade for a BMT tunnel at 30? And on the way up at 25? What about all those stupid WDs around Lawrence, one on straight track set to 10? When they go into use I will launch a terrorist attack on the Montague st tunnel, to put it out of its misery.
WD are used for interlockings when you switch tracks. The WD at Lawrence is for the cross over. You have a very tight curve into/out of Dekalb and Lawernce so you get your GT's. Smaller curve on your way to Court St too.
I thought interlocking WDs were at the (end?) of a switch (the merge). The one in the Steinway tubes is located there. The river tube is the only place I have problems with the GTs, all others in this section are justified. There are WDs after you complete Dekalb interlocking but before Lawrence.
Me and Tom MR R36Maley rode on the following consist tonight on the 7 line:
9388-9389-9323-9542-9543-9552-9553-9549-9548-9547-9546
The bold car was the 1 that we rode on-was pretty impressed by it.
There was another R36 ML consist out there today too:
9372-9373-9337-9536-9537-9538-9539-9551-9550-9414-9415
The Met train is split up once again:
9713 is North motor connected to 9651.
9361 is also North Motor connected to 9455.
9356-9357 are the conductor cars. 9356 was connected to 9365 but I forgot what 9357 was connected to.
R36ML#9547Gary
I made 2 errors on the last post:
9713 is the South motor connected to 9651-not North.
9361 is also the South Motor connected to 9455-not North.
Sorry bout the error.
Has there been any answer as to WHY these cars are appearing on the Flushing line? Which lines are they coming from, and what is happening to the WF cars they are replacing?
Hopefully, the R36-WF cars will all be back on the 7 line soon, and are being replaced temporarily in small groups while work is done on them. Could that work include:
(1) modifying the lighting system so that, like other cars, they no longer go dark on 3rd-rail breaks, or
(2) installing the more sensitive door-open sensors to prevent dragging incidents? All the stainless steel car types are said to have these, and the TA's reason for not installing them on Redbirds has been that they will be scrapped soon. But if some of them won't be...
(BTW, why didn't those sensors prevent the dragging incident at 23rd St./Ely Ave. a couple of weeks ago?)
The reasons are there is not enough trains on the 7 line. Some are having problems. Also because of the R 142As taking over the 6 line. 1 more train of Main Line R 36s will arrive soon i dont know when. From what I was told the 7 line is to recieve 3 trains from the 6 line. we already have recieved 2. 1 more to go. car #s should be 9524-9535. Eventually ALL R 36 cars will return to the 7 line once most of the R142As are in service on the 6 line.
Yesterday I saw 9557-9556 at CI. Didn't they just get transferred to be needing repairs?
The RCI's in Corona have been pulling their hair out with that train. It was having intermittant indication problems, and they are having a hard time pin-pointing the exact car. All the time those cars spend in the cold doesn't help matters. So by splitting it up they can find the culprit car by process of elimination.
How long will the Mets train last? I need to get a few more photos before the entire train is broken up and plain R36s are put in the middle. The Mets train I found (pictured below) had #9600 stuck in it. Also, when will they take off the Mets paint?
-Dan
nyrail.cjb.net
I think shortly after the beginning of the 2001 season.
Car 6398 lives once again disguised as an R-142. If it looks like an R-16 and quaks like an R-16, then it must be an R-16. At least it's an R-16 dressed up to look like an R-142 in the year 2001. It meets those dreaded Y2K standards, where Microsoft Windows rules the train operator's cab instead of the train operator.
If my transit friends are reading this, well done. Your ploy to put 6398 back in service has worked.....
-Stef
P.S. I'll probably act even more delirious when 6688 is reborn.
Have the authorities been notified? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I guess they might as well paint the signage blue then if Windows is running them - I can see it now:
(3) Lenox Express
General Protection Fault
Train Halted.
... and don't forget to call your customer service rep for assistance :)
--Mark
And "blue screen service" also includes a minor US$35 "per incident" deducted from your Meat-roCard ... oh THAT would go over big. :)
Do ya want fries with that? Bing bong ...
To which we would reply, "Do a master reset.":-)
I wonder if the signs on the R-142s can show "TILT!!"
Here is another message that you might get.
(3) Lenox Express
This program is performed an illegal operation and will be shut down. Please contact the vendor if the problem persists.
Train Halted.
Here is another message that you might get.
(3) Lenox Express
This program has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down. Please contact the vendor if the problem persists.
Train Halted.
Then when you turn it on again, it makes you run scantrain before it can do anything...
And worse ... after the scantrain, it will insist that it has found new routes and demands over and over that new routesigns be inserted into all of the cars before it will charge the pipe. The problem will continue to loop until it receives an R142-B upgrade or command pulls third rail power for a hard dump/charge or end of shift, whichever happens last.
And furthermore it will have insist that you have to install the airbrake program, controller program, the door operating program, the air conditioning program, the ventilating program, the interior lights program etc. before you can get the train moving again.
BMTJeff
And then ...
63rd street warning!
Connection lost.
And then:
Invalid page fault.
Train Halted.
BMTJeff
Requiring that the train be GOH'd with a Linux retrofit.
IF OPERATING SYSTEMS RAN THE RAILROAD
__________________________________________
UNIX Railways
Everyone brings one piece of the train along when they come to the station. They all jump down on the tracks and put the train together piece by piece, arguing non-stop about what kind of train they are supposed to be building.
DOSRail
Everybody pushes the train until it rolls, then they jump on and let the train coast until it lurches to a stop again. Then they push again, jump on again, and so on ...
MacTrak
All the conductors, train operators, baggage handlers, and ticket agents look and act exactly the same. Every time you ask questions about details, you are gently but firmly told that you don't need to know, don't want to know, and everything will be done for you without your ever having to know, so just shut up and watch the closing doors.
Windows Lines
The terminal is pretty and colorful, with friendly conductors, easy baggage check and boarding, and luxurious seats in a 75 foot car. After about 10 minutes in the tunnel, the train smashes into a wall with no warning whatsoever.
Windows NT Lines
Just like Windows Lines, but costs more, uses 250 foot long cars, and takes out all the other trains within a 40-mile radius when it explodes.
Linux Commuter Rail
Disgruntled employees of all the other railroads decide to start their own subway. They build the trains, platforms, and lay the rails themselves. They charge a small fee to cover the cost of printing the track maps, but you can also download and print the maps yourself. When you board the train, you are given a seat, four bolts, a wrench and a copy of the seat-HOWTO.html. Once settled, the fully adjustable seat is very comfortable, the train leaves and arrives on time without a single problem, the club car brunch is wonderful. You try to tell customers of the other railroads about the great trip, but all they can say is, "You had to do what with the seat?"
It seemd that you don't want any kind of computer system running the railroads. Then again.
(3) Lenox Express
Fatal Error.
Train Halted.
BMTJeff
Did they dress it up with the slanted door motor panels? :-)
They even replaced the St Louis Car tag with one that says "Bombardier" ... sneaky sneaky.
Uh, the R-16s were built by ACF. The slanted door pockets came later.
You know technically, before official retirement 6398 was used on the #3 and #4 pickups. Therefore, she is 36398
I doubt they run Windows on those things :) I would be interesting to find out more about the R142 software. You can make a touch screen embedded system with parts from Radio Shack these days :)
Unfortunately, MVM's are based on Windows NT 4.0. I've seen them blue screen and all. I touched Start once on an MVM in Grand Central and it blue screened before my eyes. At least they didn't accuse me of hacking it :)
Shawn.
"Ladies and Gentlemen, due to the BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH this train is being held in the station. Please be patient".
Lets see NYCT make a poster that plays on BSOD now ala the "Know the way to >>GO<< one" :)
Shawn.
"This train has performed an illegal operation and will shut down."
Stef:
This program has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down. Please contact your vendor if this problem persists.
What will the train operator do if he gets this message while he is operating the train. Even better, what will he do if he gets the BSOD. Will pressing Ctrl+Alt+Del do the trick?
BMTJeff
Yeah! He's got to restart the system.
-Stef
What happens if the BSOD appears again and again. He might have to F-disk the system.
BMTJeff
..I hear 7477's on the way..
I have thought of a proposal for better subway service through the 63rd St tunnel, consisting of the following service modifications:
G - cut back to Court Sq.
V - new route from 71st/Continental to WTC via Queens Local, 6th Ave Local and using the connection at W4th St.
E - runs via 8th Ave express / Fulton local to Euclid
C - cut back to WTC, but run more frequently
This does not include all the Manhattan Bridge reroutes, which will be implemented at the same time.
The question is whether this proposal is whether there are enough trains, and whether it can be made relevant to NYCT on January 23rd.
Show up at the hearing and present it; I'll look forward to your talk.
There is an article in today's Daily News, which features borough president Golden complaining about the proposed changes. In the article, Califero says he can't run the V to Brooklyn because the Bergen tower was never fixed, and there aren't enough cars.
I wish he would just state the truth -- Golden, and other Brooklyn pols, have ignored transit problems in general, and the Manhattan Bridge in particular,for 20 years, caring far more about other priorities that matter to the people they associate with. There has been no political support, and no political demand, for remedying the situation, and it is too late to do anything about it.
Why does the MTA feel the need to let these guys off the hook?
Larry,
I have to deal with all kinds of low-grade morons in the course of pursuing my livelihood. As much as I'd like to, I can't exile all of them to the great frozen north. I deal with them the best I can, then hope somebody eventually replaces them with others more to my liking. I had to leave a government contracting job two years ago that was not working out because of the incompetent bureaucrats above me - but it turns out, I'm in a much better situation now, and they were subsequently "reassigned" (can't fire them unless they shoot somebody).
The MTA can't get rid of Howard Golden. Only Brooklyn voters can do that...
(The MTA can't get rid of Howard Golden. Only Brooklyn voters can do that...)
In New York State, and particularly in Brooklyn, politicians generally run unopposed, with the two parties rarely competing and state laws manipulated to keep other competitors off the bench. Only term limits will allow use to kill off Golden, and will probably lead to multiple competitors in the 2001 City election (if they don't find a way to get rid of it). There are no term limits at the state level.
Larry,
While you point out correctly some realities of politics today, I choose not to be paralyzed and totally fatalistic about our future choices.
Golden's point about the G train and L:a Guardia was quite reasonable, and given current realities, his stated desire to use the V to get express and local service into Brooklyn is reasonable.
Why not put aside the past motivations long enough to see that we can still take advantage of the pols positions to get some useful things done?
Show up at the hearing and offer your input. Or write a letter of response and post a copy here.
(Show up at the hearing and offer your input. Or write a letter of response and post a copy here.)
I sent in my comments, for what it is worth. Until politicians are held accountable for their choices, there is little point, however.
Which brings me to a point about transportation advocates, an impotent lot if ever there were any. While opinions vary, I get the feeling that the majority of folks on this board share a point of view that is different from the other transport advocates out there. Who are they?
1) You have the anti-car crowd, including the light-rail oriented Better Transit group, the bike oriented Transportation Alternatives group, and various environmentalists. They are more interested in taking away on option (driving) than providing one (better transit).
2) You have the anti-transit crowd, including those that want to cut funding to transit and want more roads and parkings. AAA is no longer in that camp (they realize the need to keep other people off the road) but many influential people in the suburbs and in Queens are.
3) You have the pro-transit, anti-future crowd, including the TWU and the Straphangers. Their goals are higher wages combined with lower fares, and while they aren't opposed to maintaining and improving the system directly, they are by subtraction, since that is way down the priority list.
4) You have the mafia (I'm sorry, the construction industry), which wants more construction spending but at inflated prices with little benefit actually produced.
The result? Virtually no highway improvements in the city. Virtually no transit improvements in the city. A rising amount of state pay-as-you-go funds going to keep the fare low even as wages rise (now $140 million per year), but no state money for the MTA capital plan, just lots of debt. What little money is available is sucked up by the need to maintain the system, since the cost of doing so is inflated.
On this site I see a plurality in favor of fare increases that keep up with inflation, having transit cover a higher share of its cost, more investment in road and rail, less debt to burden the transit users of the future, and fair value for our construction buck. There is virtually no publicity for this point of view out in the public forum, however.
Maybe on the planet Xenon, where you would have liked to come from, governments are pure and non-corrupt and responsive to citizens and full of wisdom, and everything gets done as it should. And no doubt Xenovians live longer, healthier lives than we do.
But until NASA decides to build a rocket ship to take us there so we can build the ultimate utopian society, we're stuck with working and living alongside people whose agendas don't match ours exactly. I've worked with the Straphangers, and they make a lot more sense than you give them credit for. Some of your descriptions are basically political advertising slogans - leave them for the pols to use and bring some serious discussion to this table.
I classify myself as a transit advocate. I've tasted frustration, impatience, the feeling that I have to wait forever to be tossed a bone, you name it. But I've also had the privilege of fighting very hard for worthwhile projects (not perfect projects - those only exist on Xenon), like AirTrain and the Second Av subway, and seen my efforts pay off. AirTrain is a reality. The Second Av subway is a line item in the Capital Plan (it didn't have to be; never take something like that for granted); and I've worked with local pols to get MTA to consider small suggestions (like a Metrocard transfer from 63rd to 59th-Lex), and have received feedback that these are on the table and may be accomplished.
So, Larry, it's your choice. I think your writing to MTA is worthy, and I thank you for doing it. (You still haven't posted a copy here).
Or you can give up and wait for the next Orion-class ship to leave for Xenon (don't forget your passport and visa).
(Maybe on the planet Xenon, where you would have liked to come from, governments are pure and non-corrupt and responsive to citizens and full of wisdom, and everything gets done as it should. And no doubt Xenovians live longer, healthier lives than we do.)
I'll settle for the national average. New York City and, especially, state government are much worse than that. The second highest taxes and debt as a share of its residents income (behind Alaska, which has most of its taxes paid by and debt backed by oil revenues). The second most unequal school aid spending (behind New Hampshire, which virtually doesn't have school aid and thus commits a sin of omission rather than commission). And, almost certainly, the highest share of transportion money going to studies and not improvements.
New York State accounts for two-thirds of the "aid" from local government to state government in the entire country. Uniquely, the state decisions which interests will get government funding, but local government foots the bill. The state legislature, therefore, doesn't worry about fair value, and local areas with large number of poor and dependent people get crushed. Despite being advantaged in this way, Nassau, Suffolk and Rockland have local taxes that are damn near as high as in NYC, in part because they provide public education and NYC does not.
The numbers paint an ugly picture. I'm optimistic about the City of New York. Giuliani has cleaned up a lot, though he has passed his usefulness, and term limits could lead to fiercely contested elections across the board. But the major decisions are made by the state, and IT STINKS!
OK, it stinks! It also stinks that you are not empowered to decide where the line defining compromise is drawn.
I'm still waiting to see your letter...
The numbers paint an ugly picture. I'm optimistic about the City of New York. Giuliani has cleaned up a lot, though he has passed his usefulness, and term limits could lead to fiercely contested elections
across the board. But the major decisions are made by the state, and IT STINKS!
Politics rears its ugly head once more. At least some of the animosity that the state feels toward the city is due to the fact politically the two places might as well be on different planets. New York state voters outside the city tend to be ticket-splitting moderates, with pockets of conservatism and pockets of liberalism, while in the city itself most voters are liberal Democrats. If city voters would learn the virtues of moderation, and realize that you win when both parties have to compete for your support, the huge city/state divide might start to weaken.
That doesn't make any sense.
You can't change a person's beliefs. A person can choose to split their vote, but what's the point of voting if you vote for something that goes against your primary beliefs? What NYS needs is a better spirit of compromise. Hell, the whole county needs that.
That doesn't make any sense.
You can't change a person's beliefs. A person can choose to split their vote, but what's the point of voting if you vote for something that goes against your primary beliefs? What NYS needs is a better spirit of compromise. Hell, the whole country needs that.
[Sorry if this got double posted, but this one is the real message]
re NYC residents splitting their votes
That doesn't make any sense.
You can't change a person's beliefs. A person can choose to split their vote, but what's the point of voting if you vote for something that goes against your primary beliefs? What NYS needs is a better
spirit of compromise. Hell, the whole country needs that.
Those primary beliefs are what deserve some examination. Most MYC residents take it as Gospel truth that traditional limousine-liberal ideas will solve all their problems. Guess what, that isn't true. Looking to politicians all across the political spectrum would make far more sense.
"Liberal" vs. "Moderate" has nothing to do with it. The ideology of those in power in New York State is feudalism. You have capitalism, under which you get what you earn, at least in theory. As a economist I can agree with that. You have socialism, under which you get what need, at least in theory. As a Christian, I can agree with that. But both have a tendency to decay into feudalism -- where those who have it keep it, whether they earn it or not, deserve it or not. And that's what NY State is. Republicans and Democrats each have their supporters to pay off, and everyone and everything else is sacrificed.
The NYS School Aid formula was declared unconstitutional today. I am most gratified, since I sent those who did the suing a whole bunch of spreadsheets, and it appears some of the info might have been useful.
On this site I see a plurality in favor of fare increases that keep up with inflation, having transit cover a higher share of its cost, more investment in road and rail, less debt to burden the transit users of the future, and fair value for our construction buck. There is virtually no publicity for this point of view out in the public forum, however.
I'd agree with that assessment. It's also true, unfortunately, that one tends to hear less-reasoned claims in most public debate. To your list of the four main viewpoints, I'd add a fifth, one that is espoused mainly by the Regional Planning Administration (if I've got their name correct) and some of the more zealous railfans - advocacy of enormous, pie-in-the-sky transit improvements (which, needless to say, haven't a snowball's chance of becoming reality) while ignoring the sort of smaller-scale projects that might be do-able in today's environment.
Personally, despite being generally pro-transit, I'm more interested in promoting economic development than expanding transit per se. Given New York's situation, these two goals usually match. Transit improvements generally are good for business. But I cannot support higher tolls or other driving restrictions even if they will mean more money for transit, if there's a chance that the business community will suffer.
What about ARP's, such as DVARP or NJARP? IMO they tend to have similar views to most posters here.
(What about ARP's, such as DVARP or NJARP? IMO they tend to have similar views to most posters here. )
What are those, Area Regional Planning agencies, or something?
Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers and New Jersey Association of Rail Passengers
[4) You have the mafia (I'm sorry, the construction industry), which wants more construction spending but at inflated prices with little benefit actually produced. ]
Maybe New York shoud become a right to work state eliminating that problem. Perhaps that's why they can get transit projects moving in Texas.
Arti
It's called FUNDING ... which the politicos control. Know WHAT to kiss, and WHEN ... that's the MTA motto.
Yes, that's the art of running a public agency. Get over it.
Yes, it's several months away, but because of the distance factor I figure this would require a bit more advance planning than a typical SubTalk field trip.
I'm curious to have some people's input as to the logistics of such a trip, as well as highlights of Chicago-area transit that people would be most interested in seeing. Ideally, this should be planned so that SubTalkers from outside Chicago (namely all you New Yorkers) would be able to make the trip as painlessly as possible. I love the opportunity to show off my beautiful hometown, but it wouldn't be quite the same showing it off only to people who already live here. :-)
One important question: What weekend over the summer would work best? My schedule is fairly flexible so far. The last week of June or first week of July might be worth considering so we could also catch Taste of Chicago in Grant Park.
Possible trip highlights would include:
Starting off with a trip to the Sears Tower Skydeck at night to get an incredible look at the city's massive street grid as well as a general lay of the land.
Some time to explore Amtrak and Metra operations at nearby Union Station.
A trip on the Heritage Corridor (the fastest and most scenic of Metra's lines) down to Joilet and then a Rock Island train back into the city. (The 30-minute layover at the junction in Joilet usually offers some great mainline freight action to watch during the wait.) This would have to be done on a weekday, since the HC has a very limited schedule.
A trip on the Metra Electric down to Pullman and then the South Shore Line back into downtown, or vice-versa.
Various CTA highlights including the Lake Street el, the Douglas and O'Hare branches of the Blue Line, the Wilson stop on the Red Line, the Purple Line express and Skokie Swift (again, weekdays only), the Ravenswood line, the new Orange Line to Midway, and of course the world-famous Chicago Loop L. If we really wanted to, we could probably cover the entire CTA system in a single day.
A trip to the Illinois Railway Museum? (Any IRM members here on SubTalk?)
Deep-dish pizza dinner!! (New York thin-crust pizza is guaranteed to never taste the same again!)
A get-together at my apartment in Edgewater. No R9 cab to offer, but plenty of cool books to look at and bad booze to drink.
Time and weather permitting, a brief architectural walking tour of the Chicago Loop, the birthplace of the skyscraper and Modernist architecture, with yours truly as your friendly tour guide.
Unfortunately we may not have time for all of the above in a single weekend, but I thought I'd just toss out a few ideas and see what sticks. Any additional comments/questions/ideas are most welcome. I'd also be interested in getting a rough idea of just who all would be interested in attending this little excursion.
And if you live in New York and decide to come visit Chicago, be careful... You may not want to go back! :-)
Thanks in advance,
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'm there, David. Just let us know the dates. I'm a member of the Illinois Railway Museum and it's a must-see. July 4 is the Trolley parade but that's a Wednesday, which probably would make it difficult for most NY subtalkers to visit.
I might consider doing this but June/early July is out because of the end of the FY.
I was in the windy city in 1994 when I asked my wife to marry me. Would bring back memories....
I'm interested, as is the BMTman, so that's four plus you at this writing. I'm looking forward to hanging with you again Dave !
I'm also up for a second "T Party" trip to Boston & Kennebunkport. The latter would be a 2 or 3 day week-ender. Maybe Bill P. up there can be talked into rolling out a couple of his Boston T cars for us this year or a repeat of the "A Train" would be real fine too.
Mr t__:^)
I'd love to come but will have to pass... my wife and I were married in Chicago many, many years ago so there are lots of happy memories there...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm interested. Picking the same week/end as Taste of Chicago is a bonus but do you think it might be hard to find cheap lodging convienent to downtown? Perhaps we should get a "group rate" at some hotel right on the L and make it our headquarters.
<< Perhaps we should get a "group rate" at some hotel right on the L and make it our headquarters. >>
That's a good idea. There are several hotels in or near the Loop.
...Bueller.. Bueller.. Bueller..
Self is interested, Mr. Cole.
I'd be interested. Of course, I recommend adding a couple of Wal*Marts to the trip :-)
We'll point you in the general direction of DuPage County and then plan on meeting you back at the hotel. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
As long as it's summertime, I'll gladly hop over to Chicago.
A good place to stay is the O'Hare Marriott. Right on Blue Line,
(Cumberland Station) and a 45 minute drive on Tollway to IRM.
Must have dinner at Twin Anchors, best ribs in the world!!! Also,
right at Brown Line station (Sedgwick). Count me in if I am available, maybe someone could get a tour of Skokie Shops. IRM is a
must, it is so much bigger that Seashore, no offense, Todd Glickman.
Yes, I vote for a side trip to IRM too. If we take a train from NY, we'll need a way to get to IRM. Looks like it might be a good size group ... also looking like it was a good idea that Dave brought it up so early. Some of us have hung with Dave on another Field Trip, he's a great host/leader.
Dave Cole, what are we going to call it ... can't be a "T Party" ?
Mr t__:^)
Dave Cole, what are we going to call it ... can't be a "T Party"?
Not sure yet... I've been trying to think of creative ways to work "L" into a catchy name, but so far the best I can come up with is:
Welcome to my "L"!!
yuk yuk yuk...
-- David
Chicago, IL
How about calling this trip "To L and Back" or "To L With It". :-)
You have my premission Dave, no copyrights necessary...;-)
BMTman
How about "An L of a Field Trip"
LL be goin' on an L of an "L" Field Trip.
Dan, I like it a lot ! Might even be a Windy L of a Field Trip.
Mr t__:^)
If the "O'Hare Marriott" is near the airport, likely so, I vote no. I for one will not be going just to ride the L etc. There's plenty of other things to do in Chicago. Having stayed "out of (down)town" on a trip to Boston to save a few bucks, I'd never do it again. The hotel is simply too far away to head back there for a rest, change of clothes, whatever, to make it worthwhile. I think the hotel needs to be downtown, in the Loop. The time spent riding back and forth from downtown to the hotel will eventually drive you crazy, transit fan or not.
I'm sure Dave can point us to a Bed & Breakfest that would be good enough for me. Last year I stayed in the place that Dave P. recomended ... he didn't know I use to live on that very street many years ago. Some of us may want a little more fancy, but I say BYOB, chips, etc. & have a little party to unwind in your room. Coffee, juice & a roll is enough for me in the AM.
Mr t__:^)
Point taken. There's dozens of decent hotels in or near downtown, including the Loop, River North, Mag Mile and Streeterville. Not too many bed & breakfast places in that area that I'm aware of, but hotel choices range from Motel 6 to the Four Seasons. It's mainly a matter of what people are willing to pay for.
If somebody can give me a reasonable price range, I can do some homework and come up with a short list of half-decent hotels that fit the budget, and I can tell you which ones are closest to which L stops so we can make a decision from there.
Regarding the dates, it sounds like later on in July or even August might be more reasonable than during Taste of Chicago. (Taste is fun, but mainly geared toward tourists and suburbanites who aren't already familiar with the city's culinary delights. No need for that when you have me around to show you the best places in Chicago, and more often than not these are not the places that would have a booth at Taste anyway.) Besides, there's usually some festival or another in Grant Park all summer such as Blues Fest, Jazz Fest, Venetian Night, Air & Water Show, etc. So even if you miss Taste of Chicago there will most likely be something else going on. And there are fireworks at Navy Pier three nights a week all summer long, too.
I'd also be interested in the Boston trip... I was planning on visiting New York and Boston for a few days this summer anyway (using Acela Express, no less!), and it would be great to make it up to Seashore again while I'm there. Keep me posted on what's up on that front.
-- David
Chicago, IL
David & others... I'm sure we'll coordinate another Seashore Field Trip this summer! (But first I have to figure out when the good weather will be.... :-)
But first I have to figure out when the good weather will be...
Huh? I always thought weathermen decided the weather. :-)
(Bitter disillusion strikes yet again... Think I may have to take the rest of the day off...)
-- David
Chicago, IL
you might also want to doit when Bush is not around.
AHEM...The place I stayed at last summer [Clarion Executive Plaza] was pretty cool- about a block and a half from the Loop-right on the river The rooms are large,the security pretty decent...If you are going to be doing the Lake Shore/or Three Rivers thing, Amtrak might be able to get a good deal for you there[I got my package thru Amtrak vacations..my room was 16th floor on the river side of the hotel-FANTASTIC view! Especially the night there was a nasty thunderstorm]. There is NO such thing as a decent priced nice place to stay in Chicago that is anything convienant [believe me I TRIED...]..its as bad as NYC in that way....Also, breakfast at a place called Lou Mitchell's [next to Union Station] is NOT to be missed....reasonable...everything is homemade, and its GOOD....
<< Also, breakfast at a place called Lou Mitchell's [next to Union Station] is NOT to be missed....reasonable...everything is homemade, and its GOOD.... >>
Although not near the Loop, breakfast at Corner Bakery is to die for. There's one about a 10-minute walk from the Red Line at Erie and St. Clair, IIRC.
There's several Corner Bakery locations throughout the city (including one in the Sears Tower, where I work); I suspect they're actually nationwide and I'd be surprised if there weren't any in New York. BTW, that Corner Bakery at Erie and St. Clair happens to be the same building as my doctor's office.
I was actually thinking about Ann Sather's for breakfast as well, on Belmont right next to the Red Line L. I've only eaten there for dinner, but I'd be shocked if their breakfasts weren't as incredible as their dinners. Positively the best cinnamon rolls on God's green earth.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Edgewater as in Edgewater Beach Plaza? Or Edgewater Beach Apartments? All are in plain sight from my aunt's apartment. I still remember when the old Edgewater Beach Hotel was still there in all its splendor.
Edgewater as in the Sheridan Edgewater Apartments, on the northwest corner of Foster and Sheridan (5200N/1000W) across from the Dominick's grocery store.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Blames Bergen Street Fire,
GOLDEN SPEAKS ON V TRAIN
Peace,
ANDEE
Notice the woderful mixing of the Manny B service changes and the QB changes. No wonder people are up in arms; their best source of information has it screwed up!
-Hank
Howard Golden makes a reasonable point here. The MTA should have been able to repair the Bergen St station sooner than its current schedule.
His point on La Guardia service struck a note; the proposal about a new tunnel north on Steinway Street and then east to East Elmhurst and La Guardia could be servedby a re-routed G train (but only if it continues past Court, which it won't do). But it's nice to find common ground with other people...
Ron, is there a proposed routing for an East Elmhurts/LaG extension? Most of E. Elmhurst is low-rise 2-3 family homes -- the NIMBYs would have a field day. It might make more sense to run it along a commercial street like Northern Blvd (starting at Broadway) rather than up Steinway, and then up 94th St.
Steve,
The competing proposals (as far as I know) are: 1) Extend N train to La Guardia as elevated) 2) Diversion tunnel from Steinway (Peter Vallone thought that idea had merit) 3) I've heard mention on this site of a branch from the 63 St tunnel. I don't know if MTA knows about it or has looked at it.
Your points about using commercial streets are well taken. However, I repeat some points I made before about NIMBY:
1. They most often do not represent the majority view in a neighborhood
2. East Elmhurst residents have indicated a desire for underground subway service (new ADA-compliant stations). If a sensible plan is offered in whose discussion they participate, the subway may well get a warm reception from many. Concessions to local residents in terms of engineering and construction are important.
3. If the MTA is diligent about point 2, and Peter Vallone, Claire Shulman, and certain other key pols are aboard, the remaining NIMBYs will vent, then find themselves run over. Being hypocrites to the bone, of course, they'll get over it in time to be the first to line up at the Metrocard sales window.
You can't be afraid of NIMBY - but you have to know how to deal with it.
G to LGA doesn't make much sense; I thought the ultimate goal was a one-seat side from Manhattan to the airport. A branch off Steinway or the Northern Blvd express tracks would work, and send some off-peak E, F, R, or V trains to LGA. Ignoring engineering considerations, a shuttle could run from a connection built at Steinway St or Northern Blvd station rush hours; we don't want to interfere with Queens to Manhattan capacity, or encourage tourists to bring luggage onto rush hour trains.
(G to LGA doesn't make much sense; I thought the ultimate goal was a one-seat side from Manhattan to the airport.)
The only way it would make sense is if big bucks were going to be spent to appease the Astoria NIMBYs, in lieu of any other transit improvments in the city. In exchange for replacing the El on 31st Street with a subway, Astoria residents would be presented with G local service and a need to change trains -- the G would then terminate at LaGuardia.
Meanwhile, trains from the 60th St tunnel would run non-stop on express tracks up to LaGuardia, then continue on to additional stops in Flushing and Eastern Queens. Perhaps one branch could somehow take away the Port Washington Line (Great Neck residents wouldn't like it) while another branch would go elevated from the airport on to a huge park-n-ride and bus terminal area with a series of stops at the old Flushing Airport.
Come to think of it, Great Neck and Port Washington riders (almost all of whom have cars) might be better off driving on the Cross Island to such park-n-ride facilities and an express subway to Manhattan than they are trying to find parking in their own towns. But they would be unlikely to be willing to mix with subway riders -- even those from Eastern Queens.
"But they would be unlikely to be willing to mix with subway riders -- even those from Eastern Queens."
And what do you suppose that they do now once they arrive at Penn Station?
Larry's point about racism and elitism is not entirely unfounded - he just surrenders to it a little too easily.
I posted this a couple of months ago -- running the G to LaGuardio doesn't make sense, but building a spur line off the Queens local tracks from around Northern Blvd. and Broadway that would follow the BQE and Grand Central Parkway route to the airport would avoid the NIMBY protests of Peter Vallone and his Astoria constituency.
With the spur line, the G could go back to running to 71st Continental while the V or the R train could go to LGA, thereby solving the one-seat ride problem. It was also presumably take some of the traffic off the No. 7 line from people who have to walk or take a bus south to Roosevelt Ave. right now, and with the low frequency of G trains, having the G/R/V share trackage between Northern Blvd. and 36th St. would be feasible, the way the B/D/Q and M/N/R arraingements are coming into and out of DeKalb. It would also allow the F to resume running via 53rd St. while the V would run via 63rd, since there wouldn't be a need to connect local riders up with the G at 23rd-Ely anymore.
(I posted this a couple of months ago -- running the G to LaGuardio doesn't make sense, but building a spur line off the Queens local tracks from around Northern Blvd. and Broadway that would follow
the BQE and Grand Central Parkway route to the airport would avoid the NIMBY protests of Peter Vallone and his Astoria constituency.)
The question is how many trains and lines do we want to cram onto that local track, when a whole different line (the Astoria) connected to a whole different tunnel to Manhattan (60th Street) is available.
Ideally, you would extend the N from Astoria, but as I said, the Vallonites there are hell-bent against any extension unless its a subway, and for others not even that will do.
A spur off the Queens local track and along the BQE/Grand Central would be less likely to attract opposition because the people nearby are already living along an interstate highway; construction of a subway would be an inconvienence for several years, but when finished might actually cut some of the traffic on the road bound to and from LGA.
As far as the three lines on one track between Northern Blvd. and 36th St., it's not the ideal situation, but its one the MTA already has had in place for a decade between DeKalb and Rockefeller Center on the B/D/Q along with rush hours through the Montague St. tunnel, so it is feasible. And as far as the no-line-before-the-Second-Ave.-subway problem, if a new line in Queens went to where Manhattanites wanted to go -- LaGuardia Airport -- they would no doubt give it honorary "Manhattan line" status and be less opposed to it than, say, if the MTA planned on a new line for Southeast Queens.
If the goal is to create a fast train from LGA that can serve most of Manhattan, with a connection to Queens, without overburdening existing lines, then the N extension from Ditmars is the best solution. It could run from the airport non-stop to Ditmars, then use the center express track to QP (connection to 7), the 60th St, tunnel, and the underused Bradway express trackage to lower Manhattan (Whitehall?). It would also provide express service in Astoria. But it has provoked NIMBY oppostion along 31st St, north of Ditmars beacuse the el would be extended along that street. This can be alleviated by putting the line underground from Astoria Blvd. to the end of 31st at 20th Ave. (North of 20th, there is mainly industrial wasteland, and the line could be aboveground again.) This would entail a new Ditmars underground station, ADA compliant, with 3 tracks, and a new location right below the Ditmars buses (which are currently a long 1/2 block away). Also, removing the el would benefit the 31st St. commercial strip. Although more expensive than an all- elevated extension, it would be far cheaper than extending the Steinway/Queens Blvd. line underground thru East Elmhurst.
I disagree on a number of points:
1) If an underground line is needed, extending Steinway Street is a much better choice. At baseline tunnelling costs of $250 million per mile, an underground N line is not significantly cheaper. A Steinway extension with new stations could be done at $900 million, give or take...Even at 2x cost of an elevated N extension, it's far more cost effective.
2) Extending the N will not as effectively serve the rest of Queens, and the local Queens Blvd. tracks can handle more trains than they have now (assuming the G is cut back and the V takes its place). One line may be rerouted to La Guardia - and depending on the line is built, LGA service could come from west or east.
An N extension connects only to the 7. Contrary to what you may believe, that connection does not serve most of Queens, though it does serve Flushing and Jackson Heights.
3) Politically, you can't get Peter Vallone (City Council speaker) to sign off on it. Without that, the proposal's dead.
Don't make the mistake of worrying about NIMBY. Get the right politicians on board (yes, MTA will have to pay to offer concessions in Astoria - get over it) and they'll squash the NIMBYs for you.
Still - I'm in favor a subway line that gets built. It's far better to dig an acceptable subway than to plan the perfect one which never leaves the drawing board. If your idea is really the best, and it gets done and we ride the train, then you will be right. We'll all be right.
Ditto for the other ideas.
I didn't say I support that specific idea - only that it was not unreasonable on its face...
What additional damage still exists from the Bergen St fire that would "take years to repair", as Peter Cafiero says?
Even if Bergen St interlocking were alive and well today, this additional service would cause backups on the line while extended V trains wait for G trains to turn at Smith / 9th Streets. The G would have to be extended to Church Ave and use that underground yard there to turn around. Extensions of the G to Chruch Ave have usually been frowned upon.
The City is not going to spend the money to build a Steinway St tunnel to LaGuardia when it still hasn't built the 2nd Ave subway. The N extension to LaGuardia is the most likely, and least expensive, scenario.
It's also nice to see Howard Golden wake up from his long sleep regarding Brooklyn subway service. I mean, where has he been all these years with the Manhattan Bridge construction?!?
--Mark
Mark,
The City is not going to build anything that significant politicians veto. The MTA will build a line to La Guardia that generates the least political opposition - cost is second to that.
The Second Avenue Subway's size is so much larger than any La Guardia Extension proposal (up to $10-15 billion) that a slightly more expensive LGA option won't make much difference one way or the other.
This mornings ride on the Canarie line was a little interesting as usual. I've seen this before but this is the first time I bothered to post anything about. Due to a GO they have the "L" single tracked between Union Square and Lorimer. Here are two things that I noticed...
This is what I called the "Manual Absolute Block"...
When the train gets to the cross over before 3rd Av, someone walks across the track and hands the T/O a piece of yellow painted wood with black tape stripes. When the train gets to the cross over before Lorimer St, the T/O hands the piece of wood to someone else. What I assume happens next is that that person will hand off the piece of wood to the T/O heading towards Manhattan. In this way, no two trains can occupy the same area at the same time. This method is rather effective I would assume but very "old fashioned." This just might be the future when CBTC craps out :)
The other thing I wanted to bring up is the strangest singal I've seen so far. It's in the middle of the (normally) Manhattan bound tube. It is only active when approached from the wrong direction. The signal is Q2 74 (or 72... can't remember). It has red K in a red circle under it. It is a single singal head that shows red over red (top and bottom). I assume that it means stop and stay. The trains will stop in front of it and it will clear to yellow (in the center). After this signal there aren't any others, IIRC. There's also that nifty "End Of Signal Control" sign. Does this kind of signal exist anywhere else in the system? As far as I know the Brooklyn bound tube does not have this kind of signal in it.
Anyway... I think that's enough for tonight.. my brain hurts :)
Shawn.
The red circle K means its a manual key-by signal where the T/O has to punch a button. End of Signal Conrol probably means the end of facing block signals for the train and after that the train is working on absolute block to the next interlocking.
In the instance with this signal, the T/O does ever have to punch the key by button, and I don't even know if there is one by the signal. I've noticed that once a train stops in front of it, it clears in pretty much the same amount of time always. What's left to wonder is if it's a really slow GT or is it controlled by a tower operator near 3rd Av or Bedford Av. It's rather strange I think :)
Shawn.
does should be dosen't
Not enough sleep again :) I stay up to late hunting R142's being delivered (which there were none of last night).
Shawn.
The board you're referring to IIRC was called the baton on the TA and some other railroads, it has also been called a staff on some roads. Good simple idea that works. We had a piece o branch line on Montana Rail Link that I suggested such an operation for rather than using a written register to show that a train had been there and then registered out; my idea wasn't adopted.
I find having the circle-K on what appears to be a home signal strange. Used to be we had to get a call on [red over re over yellow ] to key thru a home signal therefore the K would be superfluous. But then I've been gone 23 years.
The End of Signal Control sign had also been used on layup tracks in some areas, as I recall on IRT els..I do remember seeing one on Astoria ceter track [which had been IRT].
There is (or was) an "end of signal control" sign on the Sea Beach express tracks between Kings Highway and just south of the 4th Ave portal.
--Mark
Was. that one's gone, as well the one that used to be north of 219/ White plains Rd on M Track.
I'm not familiar with wrong-railing on that track. Are you
saying that after this odd signal, there is no homeball
or jack (dwarf signal) controlling the move from the
M/B track back to the right rail at Lorimer St?
I've asked a couple of BMT signal experts. Here is the answer:
This is a unique signal in the system. It is a combination
marker signal and timer. In order to clear it, traffic must
be set in the tower for wrong-rail operation, and the train
must occupy a very short (maybe a car length) track circuit
in approach to the signal. This makes it effectively a timer.
If the traffic is set normal, or if the timer fails, it can be
keyed manually, thus the circle-K. East of this point there
is no signal control for the wrong-rail direction until you
get to the homeball that controls the crossover back at Lorimer.
Out of all the ideas I've heard on what the route layout will be when 63rd St is completed, very few have mentioned the Q train. With E, F, R, and V taking QB where will the Q train end w/o disrupting service?
By the way, the first idea I read months back said they will prob. make the Q go to 179th. How come that idea has been turned down, if it would make their commute faster?
According to the plan, the Q will terminate at 57th/7th, like in the good old days, and thus no blockage anywhere. Awhile back, I put in my two cents on this site on 2 possible plans of running the Q to Jamaica-179th. One of those plans drew no response. On the other hand, I am far from being the only subtalker who thought of a plan to send the Q (express all the way) to Jamaica. I believe this idea also appears on Joe Korman's website. Possibly, when both sides of the Manhattan Bridge open in 2005, this change will occur. There would be a few more advantages and less disadvantages to such a plan with the MB fully open.
You also have to remember the "Q" will be running Local and Express in Brooklyn...
I wonder how they will handle that? Are there Q diamonds on the roll signs?
It will depend on what cars they intend to use. The R-68's have only a yellow diamond. The R-68a's & R-40's have both a yellow circle and an orange circle. Of course, they can install new roll signs.
I would think that the matter of getting new rollsigns should be the least expensive and least troublesome of the problems.
The problem is that the Queens Blvd. express is overtaxed as it is. I've heard that if they upgrade the signaling systems, they could maybe get another express on there.
If it could work, then I'm all for it. A Broadway express Q that stayed express all the way to 179th St. would be very useful for my purposses. It would save me a lot of stops.
:-) Andrew
All the necessary upgrading can be done with a simple timer-ectomy. The only necessary ones are the one around Van Wyck Blvd for the diverging E, and the Grand Ave area. This leaves about 3 excess timed spots (Woodhaven Blvd and 63 Drive, and the river tunnel).
The V is only temporary while the Manhattan Bridge switch is going on. Once they reopen the 6 av side, the plan is for the Q to go to Parsons with the E going back to 179 st.
Would the Q stay on Broadway (where I say it belongs!) or would it go back to 6th?
:-) Andrew
Arguments can be made for both. It should be on Broadway to free up capacity on the North, and the N might get lonely being the only south side/B'wy express line. And finally, what does 6th ave need with 2 Brighton services?
The need for it on 6th would be this: 57st/6th. That damned station screws everything up. Before the Manny B mess the B served it all times except rush hours. Problem is, the B is needed to 145th at all times. Mayhaps a shuttle from 57th to 2ave via 6 ave local?
This is how it should go:
With North side of bridge ONLY open:
Weekdays:
E-53rd and QB Exp to Parsons Archer
F-53rd and QB Lcl to 179
Q-63rd St and QB Exp to 179 {Exp with F}
R-60th and QB Lcl
I like that setup because you have 2 exp and 2 lcl, there is no congestion, 179 St riders have an exp all the way in and a lcl all the way in, Parsons Archer has its express, and G riders have a local that goes to 53rd St for an easy connection.
Weekends: F would go to 63rd, and Q wouldn't run, so 53rd, 60th, 63rd, all get one train
Now. . .
With South side of bridge ONLY open:
Weekdays:
E-53rd and QB Exp to Parsons Archer
F-63rd and QB Lcl to 179
Q-from Bway-63rd and QB Exp to 179
R-60th and QB Lcl
V-53rd and QB Lcl
There is no clogging up the express tracks, G riders still have a simple connection, 179th is in the same situation, so is Parsons Archer, there is an exp AND a lcl serving 53rd AND 63rd.
Weekends:
Same except no Q and no V. MAYBE F would go to express.
"F-53rd and QB Lcl to 179
Q-63rd St and QB Exp to 179"
The V plan is good because it elimates a double transfer for G riders, and eliminates a transfer at Queens Plaza for riders using the 53rd Street route stations. The exception would be to extend the V to 179th Street so that express service (via the F)is restored.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
"The V plan is good because it elimates a double transfer for G riders, and eliminates a transfer at Queens Plaza for riders using the 53rd Street route stations."
I don't understand. G ridersat Court Sq have only a connection to 53rd, there would be an express AND a local at 53rd, and the local would go all the way to 179th, and if you want to go to Parsons Archer, you have the E. Also, one stop a way on the E/F is Lexington.
No matter where on QB you want to go, it is only one train. So I don't see where a double connection is necessary.
The problem with your plan is the bridge swap will occur in late June/Early July, while the connector will open in August. And after this swap, the next time the north side opens the south side will re-open.
The problem with your plan is the bridge swap will occur in late June/Early July, while the connector will open in August. And after this swap, the next time the north side opens the south side will stay open.
Waiting until August would solve the problem simply.
We can only hope.
I agree totally with your plan but it would need some further details. A lot of F trains (I think it is 18 per hour) leave Queens in the AM rush, and according to your plan the Q would replace it. This would probably mean circle Q (Brighton local) and diamond Q (Brighton express) according to the MTA's plan. 18 tph would have to enter the downtown Broadway express and merge with the W trains out of Astoria, which I assume would have 10 tph. That's a tight merge which could cause delays. To my way of thinking, the W out of Astoria should go Broadway local from Queens AM rush, to Queens PM rush. Thus, the Q would have a free, non-merge track all the way to Coney Island (as the F does currently). The non-merge is definitely an advantage vs. the MTA's proposal as in its proposal, the F and V from Queens would have to merge at Rockefeller Center.
in terms of the Broadway line, to satisfy the preferences, maybe this could happen:
With south side only open:
N-Bridge-Bway Exp-Ditmars
Q-Brighton Exp-Bridge-Bway Exp-QB
R-Same
T-Brighton Lcl-Tunnel-Bway Lcl-57/7
W-West End-Bridge-Bway Lcl {wouldn't be a problem}-Ditmars
That way, the Q gets at least 15 tph and the N gets almost or about the same
No, with 15 Q + 15 N + West End trains over the bridge you've got too many. You have to assume 18 tph in the morning rush for the Q in order to fully replace current F service. That would be 9 circle Q and 9 diamond Q, the circle Q would be Brighton local and Hillside Av. local, operating 24/7 but local in Queens at night. The Diamond Q would be Brighton Express and Hillside Av. Express, operating 6 AM to 10 or 11 PM daily. The Sea Beach has less passengers than the West End and far less than the Brighton. You can find in Joe Korman's website that even many years ago the Brighton had more than double the trains of the Sea Beach. Thus, to my way of thinking, the MTA is right on. The N should be the service relegated to the tunnel.
so, just according to my layout, both Qs, and the West End would go over the bridge?
Maybe you can put circle Q through the tunnel and diamond Q over the bridge, that way Brighton riders can get into lower Manhattan w/ one train, and also, to bring back the nice QB/QT aspect. Also, maybe under that scenario, 4th Ave would get something besides the W over the bridge. Of course, though, when diamond Q isn't running, circle Q would go over the bridge, or make it simpler, and let diamond Q just be known as a local to circle Q so circle Q wouldn't change between bridge/tunnel.
Whatever the plan, it would have to be kept simple, so as not to confuse the general public. The MTA has done a great job in recent years by keeping and making things simple. I believe that what you say in your post would only complicate matters.
The MTA plan is for both Qs and the W to use the bridge. What I was proposing is that from Queens AM rush and to Queens PM rush the W would use the tunnel. The Never and the Rarely Broadway local service from Queens AM and to Queens PM needs to be beefed up, anyhow.
"You have to assume 18 tph in the morning rush for the Q in order to fully replace current F service."
Does the F really get 18 tph??? If the F does get 18 tph and track capacity is its usual 30 tph, that means that right now the E only gets 12 tph, and I have multiple experiences standing on Roosevelt Ave seeing two Es go by before my F comes. It might be the other way around, ie 18 Es and 12 Fs, thereby making the Q replace the F perfectly. Also, it would be good to have 18 Es, just in case something happens where the E is the only thing that can go to 53rd St, so it would still get a train every 4 minutes.
For the moment, we have in August a connection completed and the bridge the way it is right now {unless they plan to switch the bridge before August}. With the bridge right now, and the connection done, and the V train added, you would have 5 trains running down 6th Ave and only 2 on Broadway. Unless they switch the bridge before the connection opens, they should just forget about the V for the time being, and let the Q go out there. It doesn't make sense to stop the Q from going to Queens and add an extra service {V} to go out to Queens to do what the Q can do!
You forget that 6th Av serves the Bronx as well as Queens in its northern aspect, and Broadway does not. Its ridership territory is bigger and denser; that's why it has more trains. The V train will allow transfers to the shortened G; a Q-train would not.
Ultimately, I'd like to see the 63rd St line handle Broadway traffic as well as 6th Av traffic. But I am satisfied to see the current MTA proposed plan carried out. If it proves inadequate it can always be changed later.
Nonetheless, your opinion deserves airing. Come to the hearing, and speak.
Does anyone know why the Brooklyn-bound Nostrand Avenue platform on the LIRR Atlantic Avenue line is being skipped? It doesn't look like any construction is going on.
The LIRR website doesn't have any servcie advisories posted. And the official timetable still shows most trains stopping at Nostrand.
Could it be that the train you're on isn't scheduled to stop there? The 7:19 from Far Rockaway stops at East New York and Flatbush, but not Nostrand.
CG
That's my train. I guess other trains do stop there.
Thanks.
Some trains don't stop at Nostrand, check the schedule. I believe for the ease of train movements from the yard and/or track limitations at Flatbush (who wants to use Track 1?) they skip nostrand.
First off, I have nothing to do with this software company - I do work now for a company that makes internet privacy software, but this has nothing to do with that either.
I had not realized how many younger folks this place attracts, that in turn resulted in a gigundo "DUH!" when I realized what I was when I was nuts on teh subway - got cured when I actually got a job there.
If you've ever wanted to run a train ( I mean THROTTLE TIME! ) but didn't have the stones myself and a few friends did back in the early 1960's in stealing a redbird from 242 (some idiot left their bag of handles and keys on the platform - what WAS a boy to do) only to abandon it at 191 after outrunning the 52nd precinct who had to climb around the Dyckman entrance and then ahve to admit my crime to the TA to much amusement ... here's a legal and KEWL way to have yourself some throttle time through the miracle of 320x200 computer graphics!
There is a program out there called MECHANIK which was created by some kids in Poland which simulate Polish railways and generic eurotrains. The graphics are LOW resolution but you'll forgive that when you see what it can do ... actual cab view, throttle, braking, you actually run a train over a "route" that ain't quite NYCTA ...
A fellow named Isklander did an improvement to the original called J-Mech which uses the Japan Rail fleet (mostly subway cars but since Kawasaki is now TA issue, its your own personal 142) and it's pretty neat for anyone who is a wannabe and still hasn't actually worked a railroad ... you can download it at:
http://web.tiscalinet.it/papalima/jmech/
And if you've ever wanted to get some motorman time in ('allo, "Heypaul?" ... put up a screen with this in your simulated cab and figure out how to wire it up, and you're in heaven) ... I cannot recommend this software highly enough. Having actually done motoring and such, this is pretty damned real ... as close as anything running on Microsquish is gonna get and if it's really really true that your conductor today is Bill Gates, then this puppy will make you ride the *BUS* ... heh.
Seriosuly, if you've ever wanted to play motorman, download this stuff. Keeps me stiff. Heh.
I've have been enjoying the software for quite awhile. Still not use to driving on the left side of the tracks on one program. But a new version is been worked on. I hope it works on Windows 2000.
Paul
Yeah, I downloaded it and I'm hooked. I sure wish they'd get the IND/BMT lines in there too!
How do you make your own route?
Try http://go.to/mechanik at JB Mechanik page. You can also join the egroup for Mechanik that is a posting board that the group might be able to help. Good Luck.
IRT and BMT versions can be found here:
Jon's Mechanik page download section
They're working on a new BMT layout which should be available soon. There is also a route generator that will make up random routes from pieces of a master file but making your own routes requires making BMP artwork and some mighty serious coding without benefit of documentation. Definitely something someone with serious free time on their hands is strongly encouraged to do.
Thanks to Selkirk for the 411..
I'm so down the White Plains Line
right about now.. all in 3 downloads!
Next best thing to stealing a train.
'Say that again.. ;c)
MS is working on a Microsoft Train Simulator. More somewhere at microsoft.com.
Feh ... I've seen it. News just in if anyone's interested, Mechanik 2 is back in development - one of the creators just got out of the Polish army and is hoping to have a new Mechanik with dynamic scenery and a raft of new features somewhere in the spring ... as far as Microsoft goes, I think I've given them enough money. :)
You can still try the software. Its still cool.
Sorry, didn't mean to come off as being cold. It's Microsoft that I have a bit of contempt for, no dissing towards you intended. Here's the link to the Microsoft train sim ... they're doing it in conjunction with kuju of the UK ...
http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim
For my brother sufferers of Pedis Orbis fever, (The NFL Playoffs)another "E"F"R" Round Robin has been planned for the Saturday of Jan. 13th. The afflicted will gather at the nothbound end of the Chambers St/WTC platform of the "E" train. All appointments are for not later than 08:30am. Group therapy and treatment will begin thereafter. Late comers will have to self-immunize themselves!
Unnamed sources have revealed that due to hia very heavy and tight schedule BMTman wont be able to leave his bed to receive Group Treatment at this unGodly hour.
avid
Early yesterday morning I was listening to the radio and heard an announced by the Mayor Guiliani that he wants to embark on a project to revive Coney Island. I think that reviving Coney Island would be a great idea. They could build a reproduction of the recently demolished "Thunderbolt" roller coaster along with accurate reproductions of old Coney Island style wooden carousels complete with big fairground organs to supply the music. If it is true we soon might be able to go to Coney Island and not see lots strewn with garbage and decaying buildings in the area. Coney Island could become a great place once again.
BMTJeff
(Early yesterday morning I was listening to the radio and heard an announced by the Mayor Guiliani that he wants to embark on a project to revive Coney Island.)
What the Mayor proposed is sheer idiocy. In addition to his $70 million gift to the Mets, which is a done deal, a new bathhouse, which the City Council made him do, and an expansion of the Aquarium, which was in the works anyway, Rudy's big idea is a "Sports Museum." Who will pay for this museum, and who will go there, is an open question.
You just aren't going to get people from Westchester going to Coney Island. The Aquarium considered moving out for that reason. The people who might go to Coney Island are Brooklynites, and those living in Lower Manhattan. What Coney Island needs is major commercial devleopment with an entertainment theme, but the Mayor has blocked that with his stupid schemes.
Put in a Strip of Casino Gambling joints, zoned to a limited area, and watch the theme like parks of Los Vegas do the rest.
Those wannabe Expresses will be back in service real quick , west end , culver . Specials could be run from all over the city to a new ,improved Stillwell Ave.
avid
(Put in a Strip of Casino Gambling joints, zoned to a limited area, and watch the theme like parks of Los Vegas do the rest.)
There actually isn't a lot of room down there. The minor league giveaway, plus it's parking lot, will take up the only large site.
There is lots of useless crap and empty lots between Stillwell Avenue and Sea Gate. Streets can be demapped if necessary. There won't be a necrology for them because they're all sequentially numbered (except for the strange lack of West 18th).
> they're all sequentially numbered (except for the strange lack of West 18th).
And West 26th, and West 34th.
- Lyle Goldman
Why IS that?
I have no idea! That's been bothering me, too, for a long time.
- Lyle Goldman
Lyle Goldman:
It is strange that there is no W.18th Street at Coney Island. Maybe there was at one time but then it disappeared.
I wonder what you think of the idea of reviving Coney Island. I know that a great many old timers would be for it. Although I never saw it it its heyday because I'm too young (37 years of age) it was a great place at one time from what I've read and seen on television and in the Coney Island museum. I've only seen Coney Island the way it is today which is far from what it used to be. I think it would be great if they could make the area nice once again by building a reproduction of the old "Thunderbolt" roller coaster which was recently demolished, one or more reproductions of wooden Coney Island style carousels and a mix of traditional and modern day amusement rides. If they could make Coney Island a nice place once again people could go there and get away from it all at just the cost of a subway ride. They wouldn't even need a car to get there.
BMTJeff
I don't think there ever was. The streets look very evenly spaced, there are just some numbers missing. Maybe Brooklyn's chief engineer at the time couldn't count :).
And how about the "other" Atlantic Avenue, off Surf Avenue in Sea Gate?
You might be right that there was no W.18th Street in Coney Island but there were instances where streets were not always evenly spaced.
BMTJeff
They are from Stillwell Avenue to W37 St, at least legally. I don't remember what actually exists today.
For curiosity is the Tornado coaster atill up or has that been demolished too. I would have said 2 out of 3 but even with the Cyclone survving [and the B&B Carousel in another light] those are the great remnants.
Coney can be restored if not to what it had been at least some still exists and some newer ideas built around it, ok, get some of the neat game places like Feltman's again, etc.
The main object is that this can become prime revenue producing and TAX producing real estate; and like the early days of many electric railways [once upon a time they owned the parks just to get people to ride their trains therefore get off-peak use of the plant] some income for mass transit. Foolish to let what could be a prime area [seashore] be of low value.
The Tornado was demolished in 1977. The "Thunderbolt" was demolished on November 18, 2000. The "Cyclone", B&B Carousell and the "Wonder Wheel" are still standing and operating.
BMTJeff
I don't know why those streets were skipped. It doesn't look like there is space for them, which is odd considering none of the East numbered streets in Brooklyn are skipped. Some are replaced by other, named streets, but there is always room for them.
Anyway, I wish Coney Island could be revived to its old glory. My mother and her family grew up there. However, it would be difficult to revive Coney Island. It's not just the neighborhood itself: it's mostly the lower-income people who live there. The very eastern end of Coney Island, however, seems to be a last holdout of the old neighborhood. Many of Coney Islands's former residents live there. But even that part is changing.
- Lyle Goldman
True it might be difficult to revive Coney Island but it can be done. They revived Times Square which was quite difficult so they can certainly revive Coney Island.
BMTJeff
Let's hope he's successful, though I doubt he will be. Coney Island is much bigger than Times Square, and besides, Times Square is a business area, while Coney Island is mostly residential.
- Lyle Goldman
Avid, Larry and Pork: Just the fact that the Mayor is talking about trying to revive Coney Island is a step in the right direction. At least the problem isn't being ignored. Maybe from that better ideas could emerge. Let's face it, do we want Coney Island to deteriorate any more from neglect. Hell, I'm 3000 miles away and would rejoice to see Coney Island take on a new coat of paint, so to speak.
Yeah, but I think Rudy G.'s looking to erect a giant statue of himself next to the Parachute Jump so the populace can genuflect whenever they pass. I believe this edifice will include an army overcoat over his shoulders, riding pants and a bullwhip in his hands. And the inscription will read: "He Made the Trains Run on Time".
:-)
BMTman
LOL! :)
Yeah, but I think Rudy G.'s looking to erect a giant statue of himself next to the Parachute Jump ... And the inscription will read: "He Made the Trains Run on Time".
Except he didn't :-)
With a shadowy form of his mistress in the backround! She too with a riding crop in hand.
avid
I wonder what kind of monument we would build for the next mayor.
From the four major candidates, I'm not sure what to make of them.
Maybe the Marx Brothers or the Three Stooges if one of them decide to bow out.
Or maybe they'll work to build a monument to their friend, David Dinkins. Lord knows they'll run the city the same way.
BMT Man: Will it get the parachute ride going again? Will it lead to an improvement in the amusement park? If so, let Rudy have some credit. I want to see a great Coney Island again. You see I can remember what it once was, and to me Coney Island is still the prototype for I see as an amusement facility. Let the prototype be the best.
Maybe Rudy will hang him self from the Parachutte Jump. Also they can rebuild Luna Park on the site of the old Steeplechase. As I stated before there are 2 Luna Parks in Australia, with modern rides and attractions and maybe they can get the owner there to invest in NYC
God to hear from you Brighton Express Bob. Hope you're all settled in and ready lock and load on this site. I was getting ready to ask if anyone had heard from you. BTW, we have another Sea Beach man on this site. We're starting to grow.
2 Fools, Yeah Fred I got here safe and sound, with my 1st Ticket in 25 years. Speeding in Virginia, 76 in a 65. O well. Still looking for a place to live, and it is discouringing. Hopefully I will know about one Monday. Today I signed a application with 30 pages on it. I think they are checking me out to work for the FBI or CIA and get top clearance. My computer is still on route, but I have one here at my office. Will e mail you as soon as I know whats happenin. Thanks for lunch a couple weeks ago, and the trip on Red and Blue Lines. Bob
If my morning and afternoon with you is any example of what company is like with rainfanners in general, then I have a lot to look forward to when I meet some more of my brothers on this site. We didn't do anything spectacular but I still had a hell of a good time. Hope your new job works out well. I will be taking a trip to NY in late March of a baseball reunion. You can expect me to expect you to make me a great reservation.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
Right on Fred! I would also rejoice if Coney Island was revived. If Coney Island is really revived, Brooklynites and everyone else who visits Coney Island wouldn't have to see garbage strewn lots and decaying buildings. There can be amusement rides once again plus I would add a reproduction of the recently demolished "Thunderbolt" roller coaster. I found out that it can be done because someone at the Coney Island chamber of commerce told me that the blueprints for the old roller coaster were saved. I would also put in at least two or more accurate reproductions of original Coney Island style wooden carousels. I would also have rides such as "The Whip" and I would put the "Parachute Jump" back into operation once again so a new generation of people can enjoy Coney Island like their grandparents did many years ago. I wouldn't put in any gambling casinos since that does not belong at Coney Island. Coney Island should be strictly an amusement area, not a place for gambling. Gambling would ruin the character of Coney Island.
BMTJeff
The Thunderbolt only looks so good in people's eyes because it's recently gone. A new coaster should go in its place. And steel coasters are cooler.
While I'm not a coaster buff, those who are Prefer wood Since the blueprints still exist, the demolition of the Thunderbolt is actually a plus. All new materials and modern fasteners and hardware will assure safe construction. Think of it as a BMT Standard with air conditioning. 5 out of 5 experts agree, steel coasters suck.
Why do steel coasters suck? They come in various flavors, they can go upside down, through loops and corkscrews have the wheels above and beneath the rails, include stand up models with or without floor, can go backwards and forwards and do everything that a wooden coaster can't, and they are less busy structurally (less or those supports, it looks simpler).
Ask ALL the experts, they ALL agree that wood is BETTER, however the entire redevelopment shouldn't be a throwback/retro amusement park. Modern rides and amusements should be used to complement the older design rides and KEEP GAMBLING OUT those who wish to throw their money away can hop over to Frantic City.
I agree with you that gambling should be kept out of Coney Island. I probably would have some modern rides to compliment the traditional rides but, I would like to have some good reproductions of old rides as well. I would certainly mix the old and the new together at Coney Island. When it comes to carousels you cannot improve on the traditional wooden carousel with its beautifully carved and painted horses and other animals plus the beautifully decorated trappings that go with it. Add to it a big fairground organ to supply the music and if the music is well arranged it can attract a crowd.
BMTJeff
I think if he does go through with it, gambling will be INEVITABLE and very likely the whole point to doing it in the first place. NYC is looking to get its "piece" of the Native American gambling going on upstate - and with more casinos on the way up here, it only makes sense that economically, the city sees this as a cash drain.
Some of us remember the water balloon races and perhaps, as was in my case, actually KNEW some of the carneys (I used to repair the games there in the summertime when I was a pup) and as such, know that it was like any other carney, "take in the rubes" ... but it was fun and even though folks knew they were being scammed, they went there to have fun and they had some.
It *is* historically the kind of place where you WOULD do a casino rather than midtown or Queens. And I can see the Sea Beach express tracks come back to life for the special trains. Think it out - this would make total sense from a politician's point of view if they wanted to bring casinos to the city ... and add those revenues to the treasury luring in "outsiders" to drop coin.
those who wish to throw their money away can hop over to Frantic City.
Or Lost Wages.
Let's go spend some tax dolla$$$$$$$$$$$$$. He's out of office soon, soooooooo.....
My suggestion would be to keep the Casinos out of Coney Island, but build them in the Rockaways, instead. This way both areas could be revitalized.
The Rockaways would probably be better for casinos, because they're more isolated from the rest of the city and don't have those big housing projects nearby that the casinos would probably push to have relocated, which would stir up a major dispute. The only problem would be the casino building heights would have to be limited due to the JFK flightpath.
[The only problem would be the casino building heights would have to be limited due to the JFK flightpath.]
I think that very large hotels such as those in Atlantic City or Las Vegas would be unnecessary because a larger proportion of the gamblers would be "daytrippers" since the casinos would now be located right next to the major population area, not several hours drive time or a plane trip away.
I think that the Rockaways would be a good place to build casinos. They probably couldn't build them that tall because of cartain restrictions and like Coney Island they can be reached by subway. BTW there used to be a small amusement park in the Rockaways until it closed down in 1986.
I think like some others that Coney Island should be strictly an amusement area and that no gambling should be permitted. This would keep Coney Island the way it was meant to be. A pleasure and amusement area where one can get away on a hot summers' day for just the cost of a subway ride.
BMTJeff
I think like some others that Coney Island should be strictly an amusement area and that no gambling should be permitted.
Gambling IS amusement. But I agree, gambling no longer belongs in Coney Island.
This would keep Coney Island the way it was meant to be. A pleasure and amusement area where one can get away on a hot summers' day for just the cost of a subway ride.
Coney Island was not meant to be any of those things. 100 years ago, Coney Island was the Las Vegas of its time. And I mean the real, "traditional" Las Vegas, not the Disneyesque LV that the local tourism board and all of the casino owners are trying to sell. In fact, CI was even more wilder, as the owners of the various amusements bought the Gravesend chief constable, it was too far away for the KC Sheriff to care and Austin Corbin et al. would hire goons (there's nothing like the personal attention you get with hired goons) with clubs to stand in the back of every Town Hall meeting where CI matters were discussed. CI was loaded with gambling, booze and prostitution, all of which flourished. At this time, CI was the province of the rich. It took forever to get there through rutted dirt roads through the countryside from Brooklyn, or by steamboat from New York. Eventually, as the RRs came in the trip only took a few hours, but it was still well beyond the means of the common man for whom it took two days of work just to get together the one way fare. This was also exacerbated by the fact that there was no road through Coney Island, a trip to one establishment was a trip just to that one! That problem was solved with the building of Surf Avenue and the RR line from Norton's Point to the Brighton Beach Hotel. Wild debauchery abounded in Coney Island, with freak shows, carnivals, and in 1896, the first amusement park.
It wasn't until around 1915-20, when the BMT Broadway subway was built, and the modern Stillwell Avenue terminal went up shortly after that Coney Island truly became the common man's paradise. Because of the subway, the hotels were gone as it was now just a short trip for most New Yorkers. Some establishements (including Nathans!) were forced to demolish in the 1920s to widen Surf Avenue and Bowery Street. Some didn't come back.
Coney Island is not more muted these days because of the city's neglect. After the War, suburbanization caused many people to live far from the subway and instead attend more car friendly beaches like Jones Beach or the Jersey Shore. Air conditioning made it less of a necessity to enjoy the cool ocean breezes. The rise of aviation made it easy to attend year round theme parks in warmer locales. Even amongst seasonal parks, the lack of room in CI forced newer developments to open in places like Jackson, NJ.
But we cannot forget NYC's stubbornness, unwillingness to see the future and unwillingness to crack a few eggs to make an omelet. Robert Moses could crack those eggs (that's his quote), but the poor man was not his friend, and neither was the Coney Island brand of entertainment.
Pork:
I agree with you that gambling has no place whatsoever in Coney Island. If you read your history three card monte was commonplace in Coney Island for many years. Coney Island should be a place where an individual or family can get away for the day at just the cost of a subway ride and to have some fun in addition. Improving Coney Island would expand the amusement area and get rid of the garbage strewn lots and fix up or demolish decaying buildings. Then Coney Island would be a nice place once again. And you can get there without using a car.
BMTJeff
they could build 2 1 steel and rebuild the thunderbird. Knotts and Magic Mountain in Calif have both, why can t Coney Island.
What about the Cyclone? I don't think CI can support 3 'coasters.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sure it can. Great Adventure has 6 (or is it 7 now?). Coney Island is a shorter trip. You can have a wooden coaster (the Cyclone), a sit down steel coaster and a hanging legs coaster. If there's a fourth coaster, it can be a reverser coaster, but those are overrated.
The Six Flags Magic Mountain Park on I-5 north of Los Angeles is scheduled to soon have 13 roller coasters on site. Apparently they think it's not a problem, so long as each one is different enough to attract customers.
It had the Tornado
No Pork, they are not. Please believe me, the wooden ones are the greatest. Knott's Berry Farm here in So Cal has a new ghostrider that I rode on last summer (front seat, of course). Wow! Nothing like it. The steel ones don't give you the thrill that wooden ones do. No way.
I should really finish reading before posting my responses!
Rebuilding those wooden carousels and reopening the parachute drop is a GREAT idea. The parachute drop can be seen from most open areas or rooftops in Brooklyn (I can see it from my roof). I've always wanted to ride it and always hoped it would reopen.
What is "The Whip?"
Finally, a new generation of people should enjoy Coney Island in the 21st Century, not as their grandparents did.
Fortunately for us, there are many who share our thinking. If there are enough of us clammoring to an improvement of the place, Coney Island might yet become the garden spot if should be.
Great, Nathans, a amusement park, a rebuilt subway terminal. and the beach, what more can you ask for.
(Avid, Larry and Pork: Just the fact that the Mayor is talking about trying to revive Coney Island is a step in the right direction.)
He could have taken that step at any point during his first seven years in office, when he still had a chance to accomplish it. His goal seems to be to announce everything, this way he can take credit for anything the next Mayor does. He should concentrate on finishing his own agenda, instead of pretending he was something he wasn't.
BTW, Larry, alot of Rudy's grandstanding on Coney Island is related to a personal vendetta he has against Brooklyn BP Golden. Both of their terms ends in November, so Rudy is getting all the thorns he can into Golden's side before time is up.
BMTman
(BTW, Larry, alot of Rudy's grandstanding on Coney Island is related to a personal vendetta he has against Brooklyn BP Golden. Both of their terms ends in November, so Rudy is getting all the thorns he can into Golden's side before time is up.)
Coney Island is a particular thorn in the side for me. With it's near unlimited transit capacity (most subway riders are traveling to Manhattan, so the trains arrive in Coney empty) and access to Brooklyn's one and only highway, it is the best place in Brooklyn for large scale commercial redevelopment.
Unfortunately, most of Coney Island is zoned with districts that attempt to preserve the past, and prevent the future. Mayor Lindsay identified the area north of Neptune Avenue as a good spot for major retail development. The result was a special district that makes just about everything that isn't already there illegal.
The nearby C7 district is designed to preserve outdoor amusement parks. It therefore does not permit, amoung other things, most forms of retail, hotels, and health clubs/recreation facilities.
A proposal to build an entertainment center there in the early 1990s never got off the ground. "Planning advocates" said it didn't reflect Coney Island's history enough. The related Sportsplex would have been a year round facility. Giuliani too the site and handed to the Mets, who will play a few games than prohibit anyone else from using it the rest of the year.
I was in charge of a project to rewrite most of the city's business zoning regulations, a project that was later shelved (if the laws are obsolete we just won't enforce them -- except against minorities and the politically unpopular). I wanted to update the C7 rules as part of that project. The higher ups in the Department refused. "Why bother? No one is going to go there. No one is going to build there. Certainly, no one will take transit to get there, so we'd have to do this big EIS. And if the EIS called for improving the Cropsey Avenue exit off the Belt, no one is going to do it."
Meanwhile, advocates for low income housing keep chewing up the available land in Coney Island piece by piece. It's something to give them that no one values. "Advocates" for Coney Island are appeased by "protecting" it from new businesses.
This has gone on for seven years of Giuliani's term. When it comes to land use and infrastructure, Giuliani is a total failure. In fact, he's a disgrace, and Dinkins was worse. That's why you need term limits, to bring in people with different knowledge and abilities so the neglect will only go on for so long.
Unfortunately, do you really think that any of the four candidates that are supposedly running have any fresh or new ideas?
They are part of the same political machine that Dinkins was a part of. And I can bet WHOEVER wins, the other 3 will have some other job close to the mayor in City Hall. They appear to be so chummy and they all appear to think alike. The best is when they are leaning over eachother during a City Council meeting and are whispering into eachother's ear and chuckling. Makes me think of grade school kids.
Sometimes I wonder if human cloning wasn't already started 50 something years ago when they were all born.
Coney Island is a particular thorn in the side for me. With it's near unlimited transit capacity (most subway riders are traveling to Manhattan, so the trains arrive in Coney empty) and access to Brooklyn's one and only highway, it is the best place in Brooklyn for large scale commercial redevelopment ... Unfortunately, most of Coney Island is zoned with districts that attempt to preserve the past, and prevent the future ... Meanwhile, advocates for low income housing keep chewing up the available land in Coney Island piece by piece. It's something to give them that no one values. "Advocates" for Coney Island are appeased by "protecting" it from new businesses.
And yet ... it seems to me that if major businesses really were eager to located in Coney Island, they'd use their political and economic influence to get the land-use rules modified. It also goes without saying that we've seen nothing of the sort. Call me cynical, but I get the sneaking suspicion that few if any businesses are particularly interested in the area. They do not see it as some bountiful source of riches.
Why does everything have to be a reproduction.
I do not want to live in a world in which the populaces embraces the past as the only path to a good future. God knows we have that now will all of that old lamppost crap. I don't need to walk down a street and have it look like 1900, I want it to look like 2001. We have museums that preserve true artifacts of the past and I DO enjoy them. I just enjoy the future more than the past.
Well put. I was thinking the same thing.
I grabbed a handout in one of the stations and it said something to this, "#7 train called the 'International Express'" I have only been on the #7 to Shea, and would like to explore more. Is walking around here alright or should I bring my uzi? This trip will probably be me and one or two friends, (My group being diverse itself) would we be alright walking around here? The trip will for the most part during the daylight and probably a little around dusk.
Thanks
Mike "Mr Mass Transit" The #7 explorer!
Most neighborhoods arround the Flushing IRT are fine. The only questionable ones are Long Island City (especially Queensboro Plaza) and Corona. But the rest are fine. I'd say Woodside, Jackson Heights, and Flushing are definitely worth a visit.
:-) Andrew
You don't give Corona enough credit. I've been arou8nd a lot and never had a problem there.
Don't forget to visit Corona Park...
Are these neighborhoods diverse in themselves or is it each neighborhood has a dominant ethnic backround? If possible could someone give me a rough idea, I am obviously fluent in English and a little Spanish enough for me to get around.
Thanks
Mike "Mr. Mass Transit" Ethnic Diversity makes NYC the greatest city in the world and the subway only makes it better!
Are these neighborhoods diverse in themselves or is it each neighborhood has a dominant ethnic backround? If possible could someone give me a rough idea, I am obviously fluent in English and a
little Spanish enough for me to get around.
Flushing is what you might call pan-Asian, with several different nationalities; Jackson Heights is mainly Latin American with a substantial Indian/Pakistani presence; Woodside is an unusual mix of Hispanics, Koreans, and Irish immigrants. Sunnyside, as mentioned elsewhere, is another very diverse mix. I'm not sure about Corona.
Corona seems mostly Latin American as well.
Flushing has a large Chinese and Korean population. A good percentage of the Chinese-owned businesses are on and around Main street, and western portions of Roosevelt avenue, as well as Kissena Blvd.
Alot of the chinese people actually come from Taiwan, so it's a bit more westernized than Chinatown. They speak the Mandarin dialect of Chinese. Most chinese resteruants have Taiwanese style food.
The Korean section is on and around Union street, but this section I do find a bit more dangerous, especially at night.
The western part o Queens is a place where you can certainly gain a few pounds.
Some years ago, I ate at an elegant Spanish (from the European continent, that is) restaurant at 40th St and Queens Blvd, right under the 7 station. If it's still there (run by a real Castillian family!) I recommend it. It was on the pricey side, but the paella, gazpacho (seasonal) and other dishes were to die for. By the time you're done, they have to roll you out of the restaurant!
If you walk around any neighborhood with the attitude that you are in imminent danger, people will pick up on it.
Aside from specific places in LIC which have documented problems (usually at night), there really isn't anyplace along the 7 you can't visit in reasonable safety.
Enjoy yourself responsibly. There is great beauty in Queens.
"Enjoy yourself responsibly. There is great beauty in Queens. "
Especially if you find a girl that came from the Mainland on Main street in Flushing. The mainland chinese population is increasing there, so there's more beauty coming to Flushing.
"Enjoy yourself responsibly. There is great beauty in Queens. "
Especially if you find a girl that came from the Mainland on Main street in Flushing. The mainland chinese population is increasing there, so there's more beauty coming to Flushing.
Sunnyside is a really interesting neighborhood. It is mostly Turkish, recent Irish immigrants, and of course Latinos, with a little Korean as well.
I personally would not have a problem with the neighborhoods served by the #7.
Are there neighborhoods along the PATCO line that are both somewhat urban (i.e. car-free livable) and safe/"nice"? I don't want to give up the mobility of Center City, but I would love to escape the crippling wage tax. I don't think Camden would be an option, but what about inner-ring suburbs such as Collingswood? The only other area outside the Philly city limits with frequent 24 hour transit is Upper Darby.
I lived in Philly for four years. Collingswood station is near some pretty good housing (and affordable!), and convenient shopping. Haddonfield is pretty good, but more of a sprawl.
Investing in a Sunday Philadelphia Inquirer and scouring the real estate ads usually produces results.
Collingswood, Haddonfield and Westmont are all old centralized communities that grew up around the old Camden and Atlantic Railroad. Most places in them are within walking distance (30 min max) of their downtowns and the PATCO station. Walking from home at 9am I can get to the University of Pennsylvania in 50 minutes. I can walk to most places downtown in 20 minutes. My bike can get me anywhere in 10. We have many nice parks and wooded/open areas. The only possible problem for you is that it might be a bit out of your price range. Also proterty taxes are a killer. See at least you live in the city that taxes you. Ppl that work in philly have to pay both local proterty and city wage taxes I believe.
Collingswood has affordable housing (row houses) adjacent to PATCO. I lived 2 blocks from the Collingswood PATCO station and walked to it every day for 2 years (before I moved to Stratford, which is walking distance to Lindenwold station)when I worked in Radnor.
Tax-wise, it's best to live in Jersey if working in Philly because NJ income tax is not assessed on income taxed by Philly, but PA reidents pay both Philly wage tax and PA income tax on the same income.
Well, for people who only sleep in Jersey, but work in Phila., the wage tax is infinitessimally smaller than for residents, but I think it's fair that they pay at least some of it, considering they use our infrastructure as much as residents. (Okay, so you don't benefit from our schools, but then neither do Philadelphians). However, the wage tax itself is criminally high for everyone (or everyone with a wage). I believe it's the highest in the country. As for property taxes, I'd be renting an apt., so it couldn't be more than in the city.
why were these cars turned into work cars, before the rest of the fleet?
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/work/nycta30630b.jpg
Also an R33, turned into a rail adhesion car, i think.
I don't know about the picture you linked there, but the R33 I can explain. R33 #8884 was involved in the President Street wreck in 1997. It was the 10th car of a 2 train and the switch moved under it. It hit a dividing wall and was scrapped on site. Car 8885 was put to work as a rail adhesion car. I have a picture of it on my web site. (Call# 15-17).
some time ago,a subtalker posted several photos taken recently of the remains of this structure. Can you please send the photos to the webmaster so they can be put on the J Line Page
Someone had some photos from track level. I don't recall who it was, either. I have one from street level which you may use if you wish. It's here.
I just got the members' mailing from the NY Transit Museum. They've added a number of new tours (the "J," the "7," and "D" to name a few). There's also a new procedure for members to sign-up: by mailing back a form with preferences from which they will fulfill orders. This seems to be a big improvement over the call-in system.
They're also soliciting suggestions for how the upcoming 100th anniversary should be celebrated... what they're calling "a truly interborough birthday celebration."
They're also soliciting suggestions for how the upcoming 100th anniversary should be celebrated... what they're calling "a truly interborough birthday celebration."
Great to hear, Todd! Is there a place to send are suggestions, or is this for members only? -Nick
He3re's the address for suggestions:
New York Transit Museum
The New York Subway - A century of Progress
130 Livingston St., 9th Floor, Box E
Brooklyn, NY 11201
It doesn't specifically say it's for members only.
"There is one underground feature which I have not described. That is the electric conductor that lies in a shallow trench between our streetcar rails and from which the cars derive their power. New York City is removing its streetcars as fast as possible. Buses are so much better. Streetcars slow down and often block traffic, and are, in any case, an unsatisfactory means of getting about. Soon, neither Manhattan nor the Bronx will hear their grind and jangle. Their rocking, jolting clatter will be only a memory in all the Boroughs of the city.
We will not be sorry to have them go any more than we mourned the removal of the Second, Sixth, and Ninth Avenue Els. All Els, of course, are slated to be torn down. They are thunderously noisy, they block sunshine, and their supports are dangerous traffic hazards. Take a good look at the Els. Some day you will have to describe them to your own children."
Granick, Harry. Underneath New York. Fordham UP, New York, 1948. p. 196.
The first Queens bound passenger train through the 63d St connection will leave 21 Queensbridge at 12;01 am on Saturday January 13,2001 Queens bound. E, F, R Service will be diverted through the connector. Manhattan bound service will be normal.
The first Manhattan bound passenger train through the 63d St connection will leave Roosevelt Avenue at 10;00 pm on Monday January 15,2001 on the express track.Manhattan bound. E, F, R Service will be diverted through the connector. Queens bound service will be normal.
Is anyone from subtalk riding these first passenger trains?
As they used to say on Hawaii Five Oh. Be there aloha!
Actually, there has already been revenue service through the tubes in both directions, due to service disruptions. The service scheduled for this weekend is due to a G.O.; there is a field trip scheduled for Sunday when a number of us are going to ride the E through the connector (see the >a href="http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/events.cgi">Upcoming Events section for more information) and there is one also planned for Saturday that another poster is organizing, with a similar itinerary but an 8:30 AM departure from WTC (that one's not in the Upcoming Events section yet... the organizer apparently hasn't sent the information to our webmaster).
Come join us on Sunday (or the Saturday tour if you prefer, or both)!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, there has already been revenue service through the tubes in both directions, due to service disruptions. The service scheduled for this weekend is due to a G.O.; there is a field trip scheduled for Sunday when a number of us are going to ride the E through the connector (see the Upcoming Events section for more information) and there is one also planned for Saturday that another poster is organizing, with a similar itinerary but an 8:30 AM departure from WTC (that one's not in the Upcoming Events section yet... the organizer apparently hasn't sent the information to our webmaster).
Come join us on Sunday (or the Saturday tour if you prefer, or both)!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe one of the rerouted Manhattan bound trains (about a week ago) had my car on it. There was a problem at 60/Lex and an oddly empty R headed up by
arrived at 42st during all this. I also heard over the scanner a few minutes later "southbound N and R service back to normal, 2 reroutes."
I was proud and angry at the same time. Proud because she was the exact first R-32 to enter Manhattan bound. Angry because I was not on it.
I believe one of the rerouted Manhattan bound trains (about a week ago) had my car on it. There was a problem at 60/Lex and an oddly empty R headed up by
arrived at 42st during all this. I also heard over the scanner a few minutes later "southbound N and R service back to normal, 2 reroutes."
I was proud and angry at the same time. Proud because she was the exact first R-32 to enter Manhattan bound. Angry because I was not on it.
Where exactly is the "Oculus mosaic" in relation to the E platform entrance and/or the PATH escalators, and how will those of us who haven't yet seen you recognize you?
Since I haven't been there in a while I asked Wayne to describe its location, and he sent me this:
Oculus? OCULUS!!! You can't miss it, it is that big, a giant mosaic on the floor maybe 25 feet across, behind a stainless-steel railing, in the mezzanine of the IND Chambers-H&M/WTC station.
Best way I can describe where it is is thus: It is at the head of the stairs at the SOUTH END of the "A" or "C" (Chambers-H&M) platform, you bear left, then bear right and you can't miss it. It is right near where the transfer to the #2/#3 train is. It is pretty much right at the Park Place/Church Street IND exits.
As for recognizing me, there's actually a photo or two of me on this site in the context of other SubTalk field trips, but here's one taken last May (sorry, the cute one - my grandson Alex - won't be with us, he lives in Arizona).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thx. Hope 2 see u guys there.
Or, as Fonzie used to say, "Be there. Whoa."
Do I understand you correctly. The reroute is only one sided!
It is NOT rerouted thru the 63rd tunnel both ways! This totally destroies the concept of ROUND ROBIN - abitity. So Only one half of Queens Plaza will be out of service.
Please , if some one can verify this do so . Ihave not had the opertunity to read or even see one of the Official notices.
But I'll still go for the Saturday excursion. That Group has been limited to allow for maximum flatnose time at the Stormdoor.
avid
Yeah, Manhattan-bound service is normal :(. I was surprised to see a sign stating this at 51 St this morning; I was also expecting 53 St to be shut down altogether. MTA website confirms this.
It looks like a variety of service changes are going to happen over the next few weeks. Also, there's another amusing E/F/R GO poster out: "At night and on weekends, your train may go over a route it's never been on before."
What a friggin' notice . To go were nobody has gone before to seek out new life forms, to find (and heres the good part) intelligence at the TA.
I'm glan theres not a pop quiz on the notice! I hope there are life forms at the infected stations and lines. Yes infected.
avid
We all discuss this alot why #3 line runs 9 car trains due to yard length @ Lenox Yard & because of the 142 St Junction if they put an additional car @ the end of a 9 car #3 train while stopping at 145 St I'll overhang the 142 St Junction Interlocking, have problems with the track switches & blocks traffic on the #2 line. My question is that sometimes when the #2 line with 10 cars is diverted into Lenox Terminal while stopping @ 145 St opening the first-four cars of the front train & the other 10 cars in the back of the station, arent they blocking or should say overhanging the 142 St Junction Interlocking. of the last car on the #2 line? another idea why can the uptown #2 just wait for the uptown #3 to clear up from the 142 St Interlocking so that the #3 could start running 10 car sets? great idea. Also is it true that some R142 will run on the #3?
No R142s will not run on the 3. However, when they have all been delivered, the rumor has it that the 3 line will be expanded to 10 car consists.
Is it on the actual ROW, or on the streets that parallel? I've done both, but if I am to go I need to know what shoes & other things to wear.
Its winter, perfect time to explore the ROW south of the Lower Montauk.
Bring a good pair of boots, long pants, a cell phone and a chain saw for cutting plant growth.
Many people have mentioned that a lack field shunting is the reason the subway is so slow these days. Most people have explained field shunting to me as "something that makes the motors spin faster". Anyway, on my unbiased trip yesterday I felt that the lack of high sustained speeds was not the biggest problem. Except for expresses t most trains are frequently starting and stoping, theres no time for high speeds. From what I saw NYC subway trains simply have no pep. They accelerate like cobble stones and decellerate like bannana peels. On the SEPTA MFL with stations 3 blocks appart the trains reach 25-30 by the end of the plstform and frequently don't begin breaking until they enter the platform. PATCO dv/dt is so voilent that if you don't maintain 3 points of concact you risk injury. On the NYCS the trains would slow and dribble into the station. Yes, DRIBBLE! I remember reading that field shunting kicks in at higher speeds (less torque) so there should be no excuse for this poor acceleration. As I have stated about Amtrak, average speed is the key. Hi speed trains only have an average speed of 60-70 mph. If you could reduce turnaround time at station stops it could dreatly speed the trains even w/o field shunting. You need new trains or new mortors or Poineer III trucks or something.
Also Pigs said something about new soft brake shoes being the problem. IE the trains can't stop w/in the existing blocks and can't enter the platform at speed. Heck, I've seen an NJT ALP hauled train stop from 30 mph w/in a platform legnth.
The effects of the field shunt mod show up at about 18 MPH
on level track.
There are also myriad new fixed-plate speed restriction
signs to deal with, which are obeyed strictly by train
operators (not motormen) for fear of discipline.
dv/dt is a. I think you mean da/dt, i.e. "jerk" rate.
It is well-documented that excessive jerk rate can lead
to discomfort or injury.
P.S. And a big HHH to D if you're lurking :)
I think you got that backwards Jeff. The motormen have been around enough to know the s**t has hit the fan as far as Labor Relations go. It doesn't pay to run fast anymore. The new guys and gals who are bouncing around on the list don't have their speed restrictions memorized yet. Due to several switch run-throughs that have occured in the past two weeks, 207 and 239 Street Yards to name at least two, the efficiency test TSSs will be out there watching all and taking prisoners.
You don't think the probies are more terrified than old-timers?
The diff between m/m and t/o is that a m/m knows what the _real_
safe operating speed is. Either way, you're not in a position
not to play the game. There is no incentive to run on time and
of course a tremendous disincentive to run fast.
What does excessive speed on the mainline have to do with
not watching your iron in the yard?
I'm glad that you asked that question, Jeff as that would be mine. Switch run-throughs have absolutely no relevance to speed. They are the Train Operator's equivalent of A.D.D.
Getting back to the issue of field shunting, I think that the issues have been muddied. Without the math it seems that the signal system (especially on the IND) was designed with the R-9 in mind. The R-9 had two 190-HP traction motors and was a lumbering beast. The R-10s, with four 100 HP traction motors, became the standard for power throughout the TA. In the early 70s and again in the mid eighties, the TA began to buy heavier, longer cars with 115 HP traction motors. Again, no problem, because these cars were heavier and needed the extra power.
The problem was that someone opted for a standard traction motor size. As the cars went through overhaul, they were refitted with the 115 HP traction motors. That 15% power boost made cars like the 32s and 38s, 40s and 42s perform like 'teenagers on viagra'. The trouble is, these cars were not the same cars they were when they were purchased. They had comporition brake shoes instead of cast iron. They had different J relays too. While the cars still stopped within the TA required specifications, they were capable of more speed. However, the poor old signal system could no longer protect the system with these over-powered cars.
The cure might have been reasonable. Disable the energy conservation relay so the cars could never get to field shunting. Great idea because the signal system could handle cars running at the reduced speeds. This would maintain the system until the signal systems could be upgraded. The real problem arrises with those larger, heavier cars like the R-44, R-46 and R-68. They were originally designed to operate as they are currently configured (sans the ATO and P-wire of course) with 115 HP motors and composition brakes. Removing the field shunting from these cars, I believe, might have reduced their speed unnecessarilly. This is especially noticable on the Concourse line where between 161 St and 167 St, an empty train, with 8 live motors, running in parallel, will achieve a top speed of 21-23 MPH. This is hardly rapid transit...
"Teenagers on viagra"???? I wouldn't touch that with a .....
Certainly there were many factors that lead up to the FS
decision. That's what I meant by a long-term system safety
problem.
A better solution to the top-end speed problem would have been
to increase the gear ratio. Of course, that's a lot harder
than strapping up the ECR relay.
If any of the cars should have been left alone, it was the
75 footers. However, even the smaller cars really dog it now.
The 75 footers aren't performing much differently than when
delivered (+/- relay valve tinkering that has been un-done),
but even so they push the limit of signal protection. All
of these cars were delivered with comp shoes, and it was well
known in the pre-GOH days that the 44/46 fleet stopped way longer
than the older equipment.
Theyshould have all be left alone; likewise all the added timer signals. I wondered what happened to the nice speedy ride on Lex and Broadway-7th first time I returned in 1996; then heard tht trains had been slowed as an aftermath of the Willy B crash. When you have so much train activity on so many lines every day perfect safety is impossible but it has always been a wonderfully safe system. Unfortunate that there is no such thing as perfect. Work a freight railroad and see how much is lacking even with modern loco's signals, etc. Very little room for human error.
Amen ... but these are modern litigious times where the law expects that if you climb over the fence on the top of Empire, a net is supposed to jump out of the building and snatch you on your way down and deposit you gently in a chaise lounge. Darwin is under house arrest. :)
Damned shame one of the best little railroads in the world has been turned into an amusement park ride.
I don't know. Perhaps who like speed for speed should be carfans, or planefans. It doesn't seem that either acceleration or top speed is the problem. It is that trains crawl along like cars stuck in traffic on the BQE, even off peak when there are big gaps between trains.
The 7th Ave.-Broadway express run is still pretty good. I've been on 3 trains during my past two visits which got up to 47 mph at 50th St., and 42 on the 7th Ave. straightaway.
Now if they could bring back the 45-50 mph CPW express dash...
Without the math it seems that the signal system (especially on the IND) was designed with the R-9 in mind. The R-9 had two 190-HP traction motors and was a lumbering beast.
Signal system designs are based on emergency braking rates and maximum speed. Acceleration does not influenece signal system safety design only its capacity.
While the cars still stopped within the TA required specifications, they were capable of more speed. However, the poor old signal system could no longer protect the system with these over-powered cars.
Not really. The question of the "poor old signal system" revolves on the emergency braking rate. The rates you gave for the TA are 3.0/3.2 mph/s for service and emergency. The service rate is average but the emergency rate is much lower than current (or past) industry standards.
However, even with the poor brake performance, the signal system is up to snuff. Consider a train going 50 mph with a braking rate of 3 mph/s (both figures chosen to be worst case) one gets a stopping time of 16.7 sec and a stopping distance of 615 feet and within the design limits of the "poor old signal system". This is within a single block length. By comparison, most braking rates are between 3.5 and 4.0 mph/s for dynamic/air brake combinations. The braking rate for track brake systems is in excess of 5.0 mph/s. With a better emergency braking rate of 3.5 mph/s one can stop in the same distance from an initial speed of 60 mph.
SEPTAs subway trains are a whole lot faster then NYCs. They use the same emergency brake tripper system as NYC but their trains can reach a much higher speed then NYCs. They also seem to stop much faster. Broad Street trains can hit 50 by the time the last car leaves the platform and on 2 car trains they reach at least 30. I remember last time I road a BSS from the 8st station. By the time he reached the end of the platform we were doing well over 45.
That speedometer flys to 50 in seconds.
It's too bad we can't race SEPTA and NYCTA trains. That would be fun.
I once overheard a Market-Frankford operator saying that the new M-4 trains could reach 60 mph, but that there was rarely a long enough stretchbetween stations to reach it. Too bad there are no express tracks on the MFL. Then they could really fly.
Which brings me to an engineering challenge: Express service would be great on MFL, as after 2nd St almost no one gets off until the last two stops. But it's really hard to four-track an elevated over narrow streets. So here's the challenge: How would anybody out there put extra tracks on the northern branch of the MFL? I'd love to hear any ideas from the practical to the boldly absurd.
Mark Michalovic
The old Budd cars accelerated nicely along the stretch between 2nd/Market and Spring Garden.
Your observation about the passengers not getting off till they hit Margaret-Orthodox or Frankford Terminal is the equivalent of a big sign saying the Market-Frankford subway needs to be extended further. Those people getting off continue their trip by other means. I'd put money into an extension before spending it o an express track.
You could consider three tracks - enough to provide peak-direction express service in place of the current skip-stop scheme. Would you need an additional storage yard in Frankford (to manage and turn the additional trains) to accomplish that?
Actually what really needs to be done is the rehabilitation of Kensington, so that there will be more people getting on and off at the stations that the MFL already serves. But that's daydreamin' I guess.
As for extension, that is needed, too. A lot of proposals call for a Broad Street Line branch that serves the northeast, and a one station extension of the MFL to connect with the BSL extension. I like that idea because the new service to the northeast would run down the BSL tunnels which do have express tracks, and there for service to the norhteast would be faster.
I don't know about adding more storage space at Frankford in a three-track scheme. The current yard is pretty cramped, with houseing all around it and little room to expand.
Mark Michalovic
Your comments about Kensington are noted. I meant no disrespect to its long-suffering citizens.
As a medical student, I spent a month with the medical examiner and had occasion to accompany deputy M.E.'s and homicide detectives to visit a dead body in a Kensington house. I didn't like what I saw, either in the house (shotgun pellets embedded in the walls from a drive-by) or out on the street. The neighborhood could use some reinvestment.
Don't worry, Ron. I didn't at all get the idea that you were slighting Kensington or its people. I was only trying to make it clear that by calling for better service to northeast Philly I meant no slight to the inner city myself.
Things aren't pretty there, no doubt. The dreamer in me sees all those under-utilized stations along the MFL in Kensington as great places for transit-oriented developments. I know the obstacles are without number, but it's nice to think about. I mean, the rail service is already there and the area is only a short ride from jobs in Center City I hope it happens someday, and in a manner that doesn't price the people living there out of their own homes.
Mark Michalovic
I hope so too.
I assume the MFL no longer has A and B skip stop service, as Chicago has undone it as well. They could expedite at least rush hour trips ond save on power and brake wear. Not an express but still helps.
My Philly connections are few but have ridden MFL many times [but not since 1977] and Broad as well. Still hold the old heavyweights on Broad my last time there. But do remember A-B service on the Almond Joys on MFL, also on the old [by my standards] cars.
Just for a side trip my other half [we were married earlier on and had 3 kids, we're now back together] was a Kensington native who moved to Montana with her family when a teen (dad said enough ..I'm not raising my kids here..there were younger siblings) and we met out here. When they left Kensington there was nothing left to do but walk away from the property. So I can relate to what I'm reading. So other than my youthful visits to Philly I now have a Philly native sitting right next to me. [3325 N. Phillips.. wasn't the same house in your story?]
A-B skip stop service is still there, but they have recently promoted 5 or 6 skip stations to full stations and the current service might as well be normal stop.
I don't remember exactly what street the house was on...
With the new signaling SEPTA could install full bi-directional Rule 261 running. WIth some fancy dispatching express trains could wrong rail around local trains. There are 6 full crossovers on the Frankford portion of the el.
That's a pretty good idea. But don't subways run too frequently, even in off-peak direction, to make as much use of that as you would on commuter rail?
As I said on the Frankford side there is a full crossover every 3-4 stations. Opposing trains would probably be delayed waiting for the express to clear. Off peak you would see a long gap and then 2 trains in quick succession.
Many rapid transit lines have this many crossovers. Do any of them operate in this fashion???
The only ones that could operate like that are those that are set up for full bi-directional running. Most of those have fairly infrequent crossovers.
What about, in a pinch, making the A-B system faster? What stations along northern stretch of the Market-Frankford line does anyone think should be made A or B only?
Mark Michalovic
In my opinion the operation would be better for patrons to change the service from A-B to the following:
AM Peak:
Trains leave Frankford every 5 minutes as 'limited stop', calling at Frankford, Margaret-Orthodox, Erie-Torresdale and Allegheny, then direct to 2nd St as next stop.
Regular service trains leave Frankford 1 minute after limiteds, making all stops.
Trains leave 69th St every 5 minutes as 'limited stop', calling at 69th, 60th, 52nd and 50th, then direct to 30th St.
Regular service trains leave 69th St 1 minute after limiteds, making all stops.
Limiteds run all-stop after leaving Center City on outbound runs.
PM Peak:
Alternate trains leaving 15th St operate as limiteds in outbound direction, making same stops as noted above. Trains leave terminals on 5-minute headways staggered to space limiteds and locals once they leave Center City.
Any thoughts?
The Chicago el did on some 2-track lines many years ago. Expresses and interurbans were wrong railed around locals. I have a book with a photo of this on the Garfield Park line [now replaced by the Congress or Eisenhower line].
MFL trains hit 55 on the stretch b/t 30th and 15th. Their speedo goes up to 80. I heard a second hand rumour of a test crew disconnecting the normal computer and running the train off a laptop on the Frankford el (the 80's rebuilt section). Apparently they went on to reach 100 mph.
If SEPTA sanctioned that run (through timing lights, etc.) they could take the official speed record (88 mph) away from the R-44!
SEPTA's trackage is almost entirely a straight line. One is very loudly reminded of this on the curve between 2nd and Spring Garden.
This might only interest you Atlanta transit fans, but I just snagged a ride on the brand new MARTA CQ312 Breda cars. I caught the four car set leaving the airport around 3:50. The head car was 612 or 613. The new cars are NICE. While not a drastic change from the previous Hitachi and Franco-Belge cars, the new cars seem to improve on what seems to be an already good design. A few observations:
-The cars were clean and "sterile" as many of you have pointed out about the R-142.
-I may be the only one who can answer this but the traction motors for the cars sound EXACTLY like those of the R-142a.
-Also, the door mechanism acts just like that of the R-142 series.
-A police officer was walking THROUGH the cars (this happens all the time in NY but NEVER happens in Atlanta)
-Automated announcements were barely audible but scrolling signs worked fine
-The train seemed to max out in all preset speed zones under ATO which doesn't always happen with the other MARTA trains.
I was a bit annoyed when I asked a t/o if the new train was running and he said probably not. Four minutes after his train left, the CQ312 pulled up right behind him. These trains bear striking similarities with the R-142s (mechanically wise). Does anyone know if they share contractors for any of their components?
Nappy
I rode a revenue test train last month. I love those cars, I got pictures in the Atlanta section of this site. It's got a very pleasant sounding door tone.
-Also, the door mechanism acts just like that of the R-142 series.
You mean where all the doors shut and if one is blocked, only that one will stay open? I thought that they shut with a cool sounding rubbery "thud."
-A police officer was walking THROUGH the cars (this happens all the time in NY but NEVER happens in Atlanta)
You've never never seen this before? Nearly every time I ride, I see a cop walk through the train (and the occasional panhandler)
-Automated announcements were barely audible but scrolling signs worked fine
Hopefully the scolling signs will always work fine, but history is not in favor of that.
Does anyone know where the real McDowalls is in Queens? If so please tell me where it is because someone told me it really exsists, please give street its on, station and line(s), and neighborhood information.
Thanks
Mike "Mr Mass Transit" "McDonalds has the Golden Arches we have the Golden Archs"
The "Mc Dowalls" used in the movie "Coming to America" does not exist. It was a redressed McDonalds on Queens Blvd.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think it's actually the Wendy's at Queens Blvd & Broadway; G/R to Grand Avenue, north side of Queens Blvd.
Could be. I know that there is no such thing as a real Mc Dowalls. IIRC they re-did that whole area for the movie.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Siberia Bar at 50th and Broadway is being evicted, along with other small businesses and an entrance to the 1/9 because of building owner's renovation plans. Article in Thursday's Daily News says it's the only bar in the subway system.
Homeline loses another "uniqueness".
Note to self: Must Visit Tomorrow.
1SF9
Homeline loses another "uniqueness".
Note to self: Must Visit Tomorrow.
1SF9
Lower Manhattan has a dire need for a LIRR terminal.
Is it theoretically possible to build two tunnels to permit Penn Station-bound LIRR trains to enter the PATH tracks at or about 34th Street and 6th Avenue, and use the PATH tracks to WTC?
I know that there is no chance of such a project even being considered. I just am curious to know whether its possible.
You ever try to put 10 lbs. of "stuff" in a 5lb. pound bag?
avid
The best way to bring the LIRR and Metro North to Lower Manhattan is to have them "buy" the BMT Broadway line, which duplicates the 6th Avenue line.
MetroNorth would merge into the 63rd St connection from the exterior tracks in the Park Ave tunnels, then run down the express to a three-track terminal on the Lower Level of City Hall. The interior tracks would continue to GCT.
The LIRR would turn off from two tracks of the Penn tubes down 5th Avenue, and into the Broadway line under Madison Square. It would run local down to a three-track terminal at Whitehall. The LIRR would have to get 75 foot cars. Other LIRR trains would go to Penn or Grand Central.
Most LIRR and MetroNorth riders would never have to set foot on the subway. MetroNorth riders could switch to the LIRR to go south to Whitehall and WTC. LIRR riders would transfer to MetroNorth at 23rd to go back the other way to Time Square. The BMT Broadway Line would become something like a luxury subway, with extra fill ins between the direct commuter trains and a premimum fare.
Meanwhile, prior to giving up the Broadway line the TA would receive a new, four track Second Avenue subway, effectiving "moving" the capacity of the BMT Broadway Line to Second Avenue. It would be paid for in part by having the suburbs "buy" the BMT Broadway line.
Nice dream.
Wonderful Dream,
I'd have both Lirr and Metro North go to the Lower level of City Hall and loop back into the Unsued tracks and platforms of Chambers St, going north then re connecting with the B'way line just north of Canal to somewhere south of Prince, Printz, Prints, choose one. No layup, in and out and gone. Maybe just cut out the center section of four windows.
FROM |00| |0000|0000|0000| |00| TO |00| |0000|0000| |00|
Trimming 85ft. down to 75ft.
Ithink thats a close approximation.
avid
I forgot about the diused or abandoded westside NYC/ Amtrak tunnel. Turn it back up. Send as far south as Little West 12th and have some other wiser heads figure out a good terminal setup. Maybe let some of the LIRR cruise thru Penn, up to the storage area , connect to the westside tracks and head as far south (Little w 12th st) and then some to a terminal to be determined. This could avoid the B'way takeover.
avid
I forgot about the diused or abandoded westside NYC/ Amtrak tunnel. Turn it back up. Send as far south as Little West 12th and have some other wiser heads figure out a good terminal setup. Maybe let some of the LIRR cruise thru Penn, up to the storage area , connect to the westside tracks and head as far south (Little w 12th st) and then some to a terminal to be determined. This could avoid the B'way takeover.And leave the cars their current length.
avid
I still prefer the idea of extending the Atlantic Branch from Flatbush Terminal to Wall Street.
Besides the fact that the 33rd St. PATH tubes don't "go to WTC" they instead "go to New Jersey and from thence to WTC", consider the fact that a typical LIRR car is 30 feet longer and 2 feet wider and then try to shove it thru the tight turns the PATH is well known for. Also, the LIRR tunnels are probably another 75 feet below the PATH tubes at 34th Street-- where are you going to build the ramps and huge radius curve to connect the two? Under Macy's? Under the Empire State Building?
Construction/engineering aspects aside, why should the NJ commuters have their tunnels taken away for use by Long Islanders? Screw Long Island. It's their own fault for living on an island in the first place. What's your beef against the PATH? Why not use the 8th Ave. IND or 7th Ave. IRT for your connection instead? Those are the lines that already handle the Penn Station-downtown volume and would therefore make better sense for a through route. If you take up the PATH, what do you propose to get the NJ people into the city? Or do you agree with Mayor Giuliani, who has repeatedly claimed that New York City derives no benefit from the PATH? (Although he proposes only killing the subsidy, your plan would kill most of the capacity of the already overburdened PATH line-- because you'd be using both sets of under-river tunnels-- keeping NJ commuters out of the city entirely. The Amtrak/NJT tunnel and Port Authority couldn't handle the extra volume either.) Lets not have that argument again.
If the Long Islanders want downtown access so bad have them pay for a new tunnel from Atlantic Ave. Brooklyn or along the west side of Manhattan.
end rant.
If the Long Islanders want downtown access so bad have them pay for a new tunnel from Atlantic Ave. Brooklyn or along the west side of Manhattan.
As I noted elsewhere, there's no need for any construction. The existing Flatbush Avenue - IRT route provides very quick access to Lower Manhattan for LIRR riders.
But these suburban riders congest the Brooklyn IRT lines to intolerable levels. I'd like to see an extension of the LIRR line from Flatbush to the financial district, if cost wasn't so prohibative.
There's pleny of unused space at Chambers/Centre St. Perhaps an LIRR connection to this station would be in order.
The best way to get that done -- from an "I'll scratch your back if you'll scratch mine" financial standpoint, would be to extend the LIRR across the East River as part of a bi-level tunnel like 63rd St., with the other level going towards at least a partial replacement of the Manhattan Bridge crossing for NYC subway riders.
The LIRR line would have to angle due north from the Flatbush Ave. terminal towards the Pratt campus, and away from all the downtown Brooklyn subway lines. Once past that, it could turn slightly west underneath the BQE towards the Manny B and then meet up with the new subway tunnel branching off from the DeKalb Ave. station.
After crossing the river paralell to the Manny B, the LIRR tracks could turn west on Madison Street, then angle south at Madison and Pearl Streets towards the South Street Seaport and the financial district. The subway tunnel would continue up Pike Street to Canal, then turn west where it could be hooked into either the B/D Chrystie Street line or the N/Q station at Broadway and Canal. With flying junctions, you could still keep both the Broadway and Sixth Ave. lines hooked up to the bridge, giving the trains the option of going either by bridge or tunnel, but send most of the trains via tunnel to take the stress off the Manny B as much as possible.
Doing a bi-level tunnel would give both Long Island commuters and subway riders from Brooklyn some benefits, which means you might actually get the politcians in both the city and the eastern suburbs to agree on the project.
I not questioning the feasability of your suggestion, but let me offer this comment. I can remember all of the uproar leading up to the 63rd St. Tunnel thirty years ago (when I was 21). Now I'm 51 and the subway portion is finally coming on line. I seriously doubt I'll see the LIRR tube in operation in my lifetime. However, I hope it proves me wrong.
There was an 11 page list of alternatives drawn up for the Lower Manhattan access study that was narrowed to a "top 5;" none of them involved using the PATH tubes.
Lower Manhattan already has excellent LIRR service via Flatbush Avenue. It's a very quick ride indeed on the IRT to lower Manhattan.
Sorry; LIers are spoiled. If their Lexus RX-400s can get them door-to-door, so should the LIRR.
(Lower Manhattan already has excellent LIRR service via Flatbush Avenue. It's a very quick ride indeed on the IRT to lower Manhattan.)
But not a comfortable ride.
It is not possible only because you can't go right now to the WTC from the 6th Ave. and 34th street terminal of PATH. Also, the PATH trains are designed to make to sharp turns that are long the route to Newark. The LIRR MUs could never manage those underground curves.
Right, most commuters who need to get to the Wall Street area use the LIRR Flatbush terminal to get to work. One would have to extend the tube beyond that point and terminate north of the ferry service and south of the South Street Seaport area. All of this would cost tons of money.
I would much rather propose the building of a subway tunnel linking Staten Island to the rest of the subway system. That would so benefical of everyone around and would cut traffic tie ups.
A link to SI would be great, but it would have to be via Brooklyn. Any hook up to Manhattan would require a very long tube and a connection to the N,R lines (two stubs are present south of the Whitehall St station). Also, since the St George Station is not underground, the tunnel would have to begin somewhere near the Stapleton station. A link to Brooklyn would be cheaper. The only question I have with that: what would the effect be around DeKalb Ave with an additional train running through the area?
Why not via NJ? Cheaper and maybe faster, probably less NIMBY reaction...
The TA has already refused to co-operate with any scheme involving SI-NJ connections. They say they don't do interstate. They probably don't do windows, either.
Why does there have to be another train route? If I'm on the right track here??? Run an R service Tottenville-Astoria. Or every other R train, whatever..alternate trains to 95 st-4th Ave.
Perth Amboy-Tottenville-Astoria?
That would be a long trip. If you're going to run a train to Tottenville vis 95th St., better to use the Nassau Loop and terminate it downtown at Chambers Street, so a problem on one part of the line wouldn't foul up service on the entire Broadway route.
Good idea. By the time they clean up Chambers Street, they can have a tunnel or bridge built across the kill.
two stubs are present south of the Whitehall St station
Those stubs were intended for another BMT tunnel to Brooklyn which was never built .... not to Staten Island as many think.
The only connections to Staten Island that I am aware of were planned from the vicinity of 65th St / 4th Ave, Brooklyn.
--Mark
What about the original proposal for the South Brooklyn "F" Express tracks that are now unused? I read that that was also supposed to be used for "future" service to Staten Island with a line down Fort Hamilton Parkway
That's plausible, I suppose, although this is the first I have heard it. The Church Street station on the F is only about a block past the intersection of Fort Hamilton Pkwy and MacDonald Avenue.
Boston's MBTA is about to contract with companies to sponsor station names. Here's the article from The Boston Globe.
God help us. Just what we need, more corporate logo feces.
Peace,
ANDEE
My sentiments exactly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i would rather look at corporate logo feces then pay an extra 25 cents
It's a good way to raise funds.
Ridiculous; I was hoping that article would be dated 4/1/2000. I rememeber a discussion here a few months ago where the idea of station naming rights was thrown out in jest; I never thought it would actually happen! They should at least have stations named for businesses that are actually at the stations; e.g., 34 St-Macy's.
BTW, was Slattery Plaza a shopping center that predates Queens Center Mall, or just the name of the intersection, like Queens Plaza? And an extremely dumb question for Bostonians - is Lechmere on the Green Line named after the now-defunct store?
>And an extremely dumb question for Bostonians - is Lechmere on the >Green Line named after the now-defunct store?
The store was named after the (Lechmere) Square
And Lechmere Square was the home of the H/Q of the now defunct store. On the Lowell branch of the commuter rail, Lechmere used to have a warehouse just south of Mishawum (with a freight siding). There was a one-car length platform on either side, with a "Lechmere" sign. It was a flag stop, used primarily for workers at the warehouse. The warehouse is now closed, of course, but the platform (and signs) remain.
The easy way to get free advertising: name your store after the location. I take it Lechmere Square predates the Lechmere store, unlike Times & Herald Squares.
>I take it Lechmere Square predates the Lechmere store, unlike Times >& Herald Squares.
Yes and Lechmere Point (I found out today) predates Lechmere Square!
I don't know if I'd shop at a store called Heralds or Times, for that matter.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was referring to the fact that the squares were named for the newspapers, as opposed to Lechmere Square (and Point), which were not named for the store; rather, the store was named for its location.
How about Disney/42nd Street?
Or MTV/42nd Street? You can have televisions that play videos by Britney Aguilera 24/7.
Maybe WWF/42nd street? Complete with mosaics of the Rock or Stone Cold.
Well, I guess it will raise funds....so the T better put that money to good use! I can only imagine the conductor saying "Get ready to rise to the occasion; Viagra's Harvard Square is next! :) -Nick
Rim shot!
You can sell all the ads in a station to a company (like with Amtrak), but you can't name a station after a company. I can't wait until Friendship Heights is renamed Hecht's/Friendship Heights. At least it sounds better than Friendship Heights/Chevy Chase.
Three car MBTA Green Line trains have begun appearing, exclusively on the D/Riverside line. Yesterday I saw a consists of Boeing LRVs and Type-7s. The few extra cars to make up the three-car consists were obtained from spares previously used as "RAD" (Run As Directed) trains -- put-ins to aid gaps in service.
I believe this is the first time that three-car trains have been in regular scheduled service since the PCCs were removed from service on the Green Line back in the 70s.
There is still no word on the Type-8 cars, which are sidelined with many issues, and an on-going dispute between the T and Breda.
I believe that the Comm ave line. was also upgraded to three car train operation, was it not?
Interesting that SFO is also having problems with the Bredas. It seems just like the Boeing cars, where SF flat out refused some cars, and the T had a host of problems...
Can't they just buy a proven design?
Dave
The three-car trains can run on B/Comm Ave, but they just don't have the equipment or operators to do so. Since the D/Riverside is the most crowded line, that's where the few extra cars went.
I believe there are still power restrictions downtown that would prevent too many three car sets. They are working on it.
>Can't they just buy a proven design?
No! State Law requires the T to purchase from the lowest qualified bidder. Most of us assume that the Riverside Breda tests of a few weeks ago, were just to prevent Breda from bidding on the Blue Line order under the grounds of "no longer qualified."
[Most of us assume that the Riverside Breda tests of a few weeks ago, were just to prevent Breda from bidding on the Blue Line order under the grounds of "no longer qualified." ]
But Breda makes other mass transit equip. that doesn't seem to be giving operators much grief .... ?
Mr t__:^)
>But Breda makes other mass transit equip. that doesn't seem to be >giving operators much grief .... ?
I think blue line equi. might be more like the San fran light rail Than the D.c or L.A. subways
Negative! The Blue Line cars are identical to the Orange Line cars except for size (Blue's are 48'10", Orange are 65'4"), 2 doors per rather than 3, grids and HVAC are on top rather than under.
The parts are interchangeable, made by the same manufacturer at (virtually) the same time. As a matter of fact, 24 Blue Line cars are scheduled to go to the Orange when the Blue receives its new cars.
At one time, you would have been correct, it was a streetcar line. With rebuilding, even the rail and switch profiles have changed.
San Francisco HAD problems with their initial 75-car order of the Breda LRV's. Apparently, they have worked them all out as all cars were accepted by mid-2000, AND they are currently in the process of putting the second order on the rails. I was up there in early 11/2000 and they had about 12 or so of the new order out on the streets and mixed with the original order.
I do know that one of them was damaged badly enough to warrant being written off. (Car 1404 was rebuilt and returned to service, but you can see some wavy body panels along one side -- not sure of the other one involved in one of the nasty Church Street fiascoes.)
Trolley service on the outer portion of the E/Arborway line has been "temporarily" discontinued for decades, with the line cut back to Heath Street. The T contends that Huntington Avenue in this stretch is too narrow for modern LRVs, and that service will impede parking availability (supposedly local mercants agree with this) and passage of emergency equipment.
Recently, a local group brought suit against the MBTA contending that the T had committed to resumption of service from Heath to Arborway during funding negotiations years ago. So the MBTA has been forced to hold public hearings, which are advertised on the MBTA Web site. Unfortunately, this is probably a pro-forma process, and nothing is likely to come of it. But it's nice to see.
I gather the maps on this site (i.e, inddiv.gif) haven't been updated yet to show the new connection? Any plans to update?
Just before anyone launches down your throat - be very, very careful about asking questions about the 63rd street connection. All the questions that can be answered are in the FAQ for this site. Anything else can't be answered yet because the TA hasn't finalized its plans for how the new lines will look. In the interim, Please Do Not Annoy The Webmaster, The Volunteers Who Maintain Maps, Or Your Fellow Posters.
Gently and understandingly,
Christian.
Chill up there, Christian..
for all you know.. THERE IS!
an "updated" map on this site..
Just gotta look for it, chap.
Since it is only tempoary reroute, why are yo changing maps? When the 5 is GO'd to the Broadway line do you change the map?
But are you volantering to change the maps? Maybe I didn't understand your question.
I was just looking for the track configuration, that's all. I understand the routing/scheduling is still unsettled. Someone sent me a map with what I was looking for.
A source tells me that NJ Transit is ending PCC service in February. I'm sure someone will have more concrete information on this soon; for now, just consider it a nasty rumor.
The mattapan-ashmont line in boston will still have PCCs for another 15 years at least
I also understand that there is a very good chance of some PCCs in Philadelphia being rebuilt* and returned to service.
* Complete with wheelchair accessability equipment and air conditioning.
1. I'm not sure how this is going to be effected, but it will certainly entail some extensive modification of the PCC's interior layout and doorways.
2. Is air conditioning really necessary? PCCs have lots of windows that can open quite wide.
2. Is air conditioning really necessary? PCCs have lots of windows that can open quite wide.
Yes it is. The windiness is annoying, and it creates resistance that causes the train to strain more.
And open windows do squat when the train isn't moving or moving slowly, which it will undoubtedly do very often as it is a trolley.
The general feeling is that the proposal to rebuild PCC's with A/C and wheelchair lifts at the center doors in a low-floor config is just SEPTA BS to continue to fool the city about streetcars returning to North Philadelphia. SEPTA is on record a being basically opposed to streetcars anywhere but the Subway-Surface.
To do this to a conventional 1947-48 model all-electric St. Louis Car PCC would require a complete revision of the underfloor equipment in order to install the low-floor section. The only way to do this would move the cabinets closer to the front, which would cause massive revision of the push rods. Supposidly Woodland Shop would do the job, but many doubt they have the expertise to do it right.
As to the Newark PCC's, strong, almost confirmed rumor has all but 3 going to MUNI, who needs additional cars badly. They are so desparate for PCC's that they are even willing to take GE cars, which IMHO they have never had.
As to the Newark PCC's, strong, almost confirmed rumor has all but 3 going to MUNI, who needs additional cars badly. They are so desparate for PCC's that they are even willing to take GE cars, which IMHO they have never had.
Great news! I take it the remaining three will be preserved locally?
The rumor I've heard has one being preserved within the state and the two currently in active work car service remaining in that capacity.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The almost confirmed rumor had a car going to both Seashore and Branford, with NJT keeping the third. No mention if the two in Work Service are included in the total going to MUNI.
I would have to assume that MUNI's allocation is being reduced by two, then, since the work cars are needed by NJT - they don't have another line car, AFAIK.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of the NJT work cars, anyone know what kind of shape the ex Toronto sweeper is in and what its fate is? I have been looking for any pictures of it for a possible HO scale model for my traction layout
Thanks
Steve
I imagine that it would be somewhat similar to the sweeper at the Halton County Radial Railway museum. If it is, there is a picture of the museum's sweeper on their website which might help you.
Sweeper picture:
http://www.hcry.org/ttc_s37.jpg
Museum website:
http://www.hcry.org
-Robert King
It still exists... that's about all I know. There was a picture of it in the paper a month or two back... search past threads (if Dave's got that capability working again... I'm not sure) for more info.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just what Branford needs! Another car.
Plus a low-floor PCC would look hideous IMO, in fact, I think that any low-floor looks weird. I would favor the more complex wheelchair lift over a low-floor anyday. As far as air-conditioning, a Sutrak could be custom-built to work on a PCC and the housing could resemble the trolley-based cowling from a PCC, therefore making it look original. In my earlier posts somewhere, I've thought a bus A/C unit would not work on a PCC, but it would, if the fan and compressor motors were changed to work on a 600 VDC system. That's what I would od if I owned a TA. What SEPTA would do, well, that's a different story.
The whole proposal to rebuild PCC cars to include an air conditioning retrofit and a low floor section is just silly. On the other hand, it would be much more feasable to rebuild them in their current configuration and return typical PCCs to service, not extensively modified ones. Also, to do such an extensive modification on an all electric PCC would be much easier than to do it to an air PCC, because those have even more equipment under the floor for the air system which would have to be rearranged as well.
Why isn't there much confidence in the capabilities of the Woodland shop?
While Woodland can do repairs to both PCC's and LRV's, they do not have the in-house expertise to totally re-engineer the control relocation. The MG and air ducting on the carbody don't require much rework. The low floor would most likely only affect the center door well and the basic flooring. Dropping the center of the car would not affect the left side, and the side ducting could remain at the as-built level. Since the ventilation is MG blower related, it is logical to believe that. A/C would probably be similar to DC Transit's treatment to the Silver Sightseer.
However, as I said in the post that started this, it's all SEPTA BS.
The BS in right in line with things like the 13 car low-floor articulated LRV RFP. Nobody was interested in so small an order, which is exactly why SEPTA did what they did. They are not interested in returning streetcar service to North Philadelphia.
As an aside, the Kawasaki LRV's are approaching their 20th anniversary, and will require a GOH pretty soon. Betcha the work goes to an outside contractor.
Installing a low floor section in the center door area is practically not possible using the existing PCC car structure. There is also too much stuff under that section of the floor that would be crazy to try to relocate. You might as well build the car from scratch.
Installing a lift on the forward platform of non-MU all-electric PCC's IS practical, and can be done rather easily. I have spoken several times on the trolley listserve with a gent who actually helped write the ADA regs, who is a transit engineer, AND who also is a trolley fan. He engineered the thing himself, and is quite adamant that it would be real world ready.
I don't believe that SEPTA ever had any multiple unit PCCs, so installing a lift in the front shouldn't be a problem if they decide that that is what they want to do, assuming that the PCCs are indeed rebuilt in the first place.
On the topic of multiple unit PCCs, would I be correct if I said that there aren't any multiple unit PCCs running anymore, except perhaps in streetcar museums (the HCRR has two, but they are in need of one heck of an exhaustive restoration)?
-Robert King
The PCC cars still running in Boston are MU, but they'll never run them like that again.
I was referring to non-MU cars, because the MU gear and the coupler assembly would get in the way of the lift installation.
The PCC cars still running in Boston are MU, but they'll never run them like that again.
I was referring to non-MU cars, because the MU gear and the coupler assembly would get in the way of the lift installation.
But if a PCC is MU equipped, then the wheelchair lift could be installed at the center door. But you would have a dilemma if a PCC was MU equipped AND double-ended and you want to make it ADA compliant.
The real answer is very cheap and very simple--pour concrete ramps at 'key' stops as SF MUNI has done. Then equip the cars with a moveable "bridge plate" Very few moving parts--no0 stupid motors etc. AND useful for non ADA patrons with kids in prams, large laundty/shopping/luggage carts. At the very least ramp/saftey islands at all major intersections/transfer points should suffice.
Memphis,TN has a small trolley loop downtown on Main Street and on former Railroad (Illinois Central) right of way near Riverside Drive. ADA was addressed by having mini lifts at each stop. The customer would wait at the station (glorified bus stop). The operator would get off the trolley and with a key operated switch, operate the lift to allow the person to enter the trolley.
NJT's Hoboken Terminal has a similar feature since it too has low platforms.
note to Dave- I am not planning a trip there any time soon so I cant do a write up anytime soon--sorry! All I can say is the system is operated by the Memphis Area Transit Authority(MATA) and uses rebuilt italian trolleys with Air Conditioning added.
Yes abd San Jose VTA has similar OVER PRICED lifts. My point is that rather than a wrecjing historic cars or b o****** money down a sewer on expensive junk, concrete ramps are cheap and effective low maintenance solutions. BTW Kudos to NJT-- on my recent trip East I rode the HBLR and was impressed by the Genuineroll on roll off platform to LRV floor match. Too bad CalTrans/ATK couldn't bother to do the same at the newly built station in Bakersfield. Instead they have phenomenally expensive lifts--notoriously unreliable--on each car.
I wish I could show y'all how much electrical gear and wiring is crammed in between the center door and the MG set, and the trucks. It's practically the entire control center. I WOULDN'T DO IT!
You might as well spend yer money on a compliant Tatra T3R.
However, if you spliced up two PCC cars to make an articulated (like Sarajevo), then you could use the rear set of center doors for the lift. And they could be MU too. :-)
what does GOH stand for? Also, you have to understand, there are good reasons for not returning streetcar service. Gosh, more trolleybus lines would be more practical. What's the point of having lines which could easily be majorly delayed by just one stupid person parking on the line when you can have a bus route where the bus can go around that obstruction? the reason why the subway-surface lines were kept was because they go underground in the city, and therefore would be out of the way of traffic on the surface, and they are sorta like commuter light rail lines.
GOH stands for General OverHaul. To lengthen the life of rail cars, they should be overhauled after 20 or so years of service.
As to streetcar line replacement, SEPTA is right in the NCL style camp. Diesels, diesels, diesels. Also, since the TC fleet is pushing 20, betcha the replacement will be more diesels, unless somebody higher up in the SEPTA chain comes to their senses.
Also, believe it or not, NCL was actually considering killing the surface running on the Subway-Surface and building a transfer facility at 40th street. This was actually talked about circa 1961, but the idea never progressed beyond the talking stage. Also would you believe that Woodland Carhouse was on the PRT replacement program, but it never got done. PTC did nothing, either, and SEPTA didn't even try until the 1975 fire (possibly the last carhouse fire in the Western Hemisphere). If the fire had never happened, we might have treated to the sight of LRV's being stabled in an 1863 era horsecar barn.
I can't believe that somebody would write on this message board of all places that people breaking traffic laws and parking where they shouldn't qualifies as a good reason not to implement streetcar service!
Streetcars are actually a very effective mode of public transportation. Visit any city with a large traditional streetcar network that is primarily street running on your next railfan holiday and see how useful they are.
>Visit any city with a large traditional streetcar network that is >primarily street running
how many of those ar there left in the U S or Canada
SF, Boston, Philly, Toronto. Especially Toronto.
Boston only has about 1000 feet of street running street car service. Heath to Arborway is disused but may reopen.
Your don't want to forget HBLR in Jersey City.
Mike "Mr Mass Transit"
(G)eneral (O)ver (H)aul
if you cannot make it up to Boston Dave had Posted 20 of photos of the line at
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/boston/mattapan/index.html
This brave little rumour about the Newark cars going to San Francisco came up a couple of times before. Muni has not said they have bought/lease/borrowed anything yet. I have asked those who are supposed to know, and those who prepare for additional maintenance/rebuilding.
Right now according to NJT, all the cars and parts are being held close to the vest and are to stay in NJ for a special project, details are still fuzzy. Car 25 is up at the new Light Rail Facility already with that unsolvable controller brainfart from a while back.
The idea that NJT would keep the well worn work cars around in service when they just bought new units at great expense also seems alittle much of a stretch. High tech ops, higher voltages, and cab control kinda rule out banging around in a grouchy, wood bodied 85 year old work motors.
I know we'd all like the Newark PCC's to go to SF and live out their days being cared for at Geneva carhouse.
Sorry folks. If anything does go on between NJT/Muni, I will certainly post it here as soon as I get confirmation from those who will have to deal with it for the next 15 years or so.
The MBTA is selling name rights to four stations. Kendal-MIT-Glickman has a nice ring to it!
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/011/metro/Next_stop_corporate_logos-.shtml
Better hope Fleet Bank doesn't get any weird ideas, like buying out every T stop in the system and renaming them all to Fleet.
"Entering: Fleet... Next stop: Fleet... The destination of this train is: Fleet..."
-- David
Chicago, IL
You mean like North Quincy, Quincy Center, Quincy Adams & Quincy Market OR all those HAMs in Boston (Needham, Hingham, Dedham, etc.)
Mr t__:^)
Actually, Fleet Bank would just shut them all down in order to prevent some other bank from getting the naming rights.
(only half-joking)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Fleet is my bank, you ain't only 1/2 joking
Peace,
ANDEE
At one time every station on the orange line had 2 stations here is an orange line map from the NE Transit site
Maybe they'll co-brand with the people who make Fleet enemas... after all, the system is certainly going down the tubes...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Naaah, that's OK Dick. I'd rather have "Kendall/MIT/Seashore-Trolley-Museum."
Oh is there going to be a free transfer to catch the Fishbowl to Sea Shore ?
Mr t__:^)
>Oh is there going to be a free transfer to catch the Fishbowl to Sea Shore ?
How 'bout from the Wells (ME) Amtrak Station?
If the group is big enough, i'll bet it could happen. Sea Shore has a couple of buses that are licensed for the road, one is used mainly for parades, it's in great shape. The second, the fishbowl, ran just fine last year when fellow member Todd Glickman took us for a ride.
Mr t__:^)
As a matter of fact, Mr. t_:^) we just acquired a SECOND fishbowl (#6069), and hope to have it on the road this upcoming season. So we could have a two-car train of Fishbowl buses doing shuttle runs between the Amtrak station and Seashore.
An Articulated Fishbowl now that would be something to see just by itself !
Mr t__:^)
gmartic has one that he ran during the LA transit strike; see YOYOYO...WAKE UP LADIES GM ARTIC TO RUN IN A IN ACTUAL SERVICE. You can probably e-mail him for pics (I should do the same).
I assume you'll do the only proper thing and link them together back-to-back with a drawbar to create a married pair? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
How about Lowell Commuter Rail Station/ Seashore Trolley Museum!
Now that may be closer to the truth!
Apparently, Metro tickets are a hot item in Rome, even hotter than Giants playoff tickets!
Scalping Metro Tickets
-Hank
Italy needs to re-value their currency. It was just a few years ago that 1,500 lire = 1 USD.
What Italy really needs to do is have a gov't that lasts more than a year.
Oh, the joys of the parliamentary form of govt! Maybe if Italy were surrounded by Arabs, its govts would last longer.
What's the point? Next January it will be replaced by Euro notes anyway. Currently it's de facto Euro.
Arti
The Euro is going down the toilet. The UK will get to say "I told you so" then all the other europian countries have their currency tank.
And you base this on what?
-Hank
The dismal proformance of the Euro since its introduction. Instead of the Euro they should have just adopted a standard currency pegging scheeme. It would have united the economy, made any currency work anywhere and let each country keep its national pride. Also those nations with economic problems could have their currency devauled instead of bringing everything down w/ it.
Its performance versus what? Devalueing currency has its own problems, none of them simple.
Unless you have an economics degree, I suggest you not make such drastic comment on the common economic policies of foreign nations.
-Hank
It went from $1.20 to 90 cents. With a common currenct the whole EU could go down because of one or two bad apple states (like France). I say they should stick w/ their traditional currencies.
Mike, the dollar is so strong right now that all currencies are down when compared to it.
The UK pound in April 2000 was at $1.63
At closing on 1/11/01, it is $1.49 and was as low as $1.39 ninety days ago so you can't just insinuate that the UK pound will stay strong while the Euro will go down the toilet.
By the way, the reason why the Euro is so low (95 cents to 1 Euro), is the German economy is shot right now, and Germany was the biggest backer of the Euro. When the Euro was struggling two years ago, the head financial officer of Germany (equivalent to Alan Greenspan) was saying on record that the Euro would bounce back and that there would be nothing to worry about. When the Euro continued to plummet (five years ago, it was $2 USD to 1 Euro), he got sacked. BTW, Greece backed out of the Euro conversion six months ago (357 Greek Drachma to $1 USD).
Well at least you're not talking about Hillary Rodham. Let's not pollute this website with the likes of her.
at leastshe is smart and knows what she is talking about. Not like George Wimp Bush or the last Republican VP Dan the Bird Brain Quayle
Gotcha!!! I just knew you would take the bait. Hope that apartment you rented give you some scenic view of your new neighborhood. I'm sure that part of Virginia is very picturesque. Virginia----now a good Republican state.
And you base your insight on what?
Arti
Psst...wanna metrocard...Psst...yea you...I'll give you such a deal
Peace,
ANDEE
I was wondering what style of signaling is used on the BSS, IRT or SMT/IND. I believe it is the IRT method with the upper head speaking of the main route and the lower head speaking of any diverging route. I believe they are IRT style (I spent lots of time watching them this summer), but I can't quite seem to remember.
Many of the older people on this board missed the old cars of the subway and think those were "real" subway cars. To me, I see a picture of a BMT Standard and I think that it belongs in the 1800s as the caboose on the Transcontinental Railroad and not in a subway. Since I wasn't alive when these old cars were in service, I'm used to a subway car looking streamlined with no intricate designs or frills. While I will always like new and forward thinking models better, I have an appriciation for old cars. However, I have trouble appricaiting cars that, in my opinion, don't look like they would belong in a subway.
I want everybody who was alive when these pre-R cars were running to tell me how they fit into the subway. What was the overall ambience of the subway? What noises did the trains make? How did the stations look to match the look of the cars? Were they "unrefined" compared to modern-day cars? Answering these questions will give me a better appricaition of these cars and understand where you all are coming from when you talk about these cars.
Hmmmm, that's quite a question that you asked, let me just start a reply: My memory of the "old cars" only goes back to the 60s. The D types were around but I never rode one until 2000. I rode Standards, Q types, PATH Black cars (well I at least saw the Black cars in the Hudson Terminal when I worked at 90 Church) and early "Rs", e.g. R-9s, R-15 (with the pair of little fans vs. big cieling type fan), R-17 & up. If you go back to the beginning there was the wooden El cars & early steel. The Lo-V & Hi-V are in this group, before my time ... this is why a museum such a great place to "Catch the cars you missed". The TA one in Brooklyn is nice for a static display, but riding on one helps to give you the feel of how they were.
My memory is the early steel cars were dark, dirty & hot in the summer, plus they each made their own noises. So, that's the car ambiance part. Stations, about the same ... bare light bulbs made the place dim. Those wooden turnstiles & iron madens. There's a public TV film clip that runs a lot ... shows guys in suits & hats ... that was gone by the 60s, at least the hats for the most part. The crouds are still there, just not as well dressed as they use to be.
Your local trolley museum will also give you some of this ambience, as they want us operators to ware a white shirt under a dark suit, vest, hat & watch on a chain ... only thing missing is a cigar or a pipe.
(I like to play around, i.e. I have a firemans hat (parade version) and a TA bus operastors badge on that hat, my watch was obtained at Burger King & has a likeness of "Cat & Dog").
OK, I now leave it to others to take you back further in time.
Mr t__:^)
thats the same experence we have out here at the ORANG EMPIRE MUSEUM in peris calif .
I don't recall seeing this answer, so please pardon me if you already gave it ... you've mentioned this place several times before, are you a member, operator or anything like that there ?
Mr t__:^)
how about trolley cars ?
>>>The crowds are still there, just not as well dressed as they use to be. <<<
My mother used to tell me about that time. People, even a janitor, would actually DRESS to go to work and then change when they got there. INCREDIBLE!
Peace,
ANDEE
It's like comparing apples and oranges!
A/C did not exist fifty years ago, except in some motion picture theatres. It did not seem to matter how hot the train was for when you got to your workplace it was hot there too. The trains did keep nice and warm in the winter, except when one chose to ride out on the open platforms of the gate cars.
I can't recall being aware of passenger's preoccupation with how fast or slow a train traveled between stations. Speed and acceleration did not seem to concern us as passengers the way it seems to today. We did get annoyed with unexplained stops.
Most trains were lit with incadescent bulbs, but I can't say they were dark. There always seemed to be plenty of light to read by.
There were no PA systems on the trains so delays could not be explained to the public except by word of mouth. Several major stations did have platform PA systems.
None of the trains had headlights in the subways. I guess we were taking our lives in our hands riding like that.
End signs were all but non-existant, except on some of the more recent cars. Passengers determined their train by the marker light colors on the front, or the side signs.
Gatemen and conductors were out with the public, and not shut up in a motorman's cab. They always seemed ready to talk to transit fans, and share the latest transit gossip.
It has been many years since I rode the subway, but I think it must have been more fun in my day, with fewer accidents and train delaying incidents.
>>>It has been many years since I rode the subway, but I think it must have been more fun in my day, with fewer accidents and train delaying incidents. <<<
...and far less full of employees who are in the wrong line of work.
Peace,
ANDEE
On this thread guess I have to agree with Pork at least for ambience on the R46..which are NOT bland, even if the R142 is and doesn't have to be. Agree with Ed Sachs on the BMT cars vs IRT for seating and ride. The BMT had the same feel as let's say the New York Central MU"s.Same sounds but quieter and not so many rattles and the feel of the motors and track permeating the ride, but guess that's why I liked the IRT so much. You were surrounded by "railroad" while riding.
Thanks for coming to the defense of the old stuff Karl..We lived without air conditioning in most homes and autos so the train didn't make much difference and the paddle fans and open doors and windows created cooling of some degree. Butthen the big RR's had a/c, even retrofitted on some old cars. for a 20-30 minute ride we didn"t care. I feel the old cars were warmer in winter; lighting wise it was gentler with the incandescents than fluorescent, if dim it wasbecause the TA extended the lives of the bulbs by using 130 V bulbs which burned dimmer but longer. Half the lights sometimes out was because if one bulb burned out in a circuit (series) 4 others also went out, lose 2 bulbs and half the car..or almost..was out.
The old trains were not slow. True, with faster acceleration and decelaration the new cars reduced running time..perhaps 6 minutes on the hour...faster true but not muh different; now with more and more speed restrictions placed..oh well.
Headlights were't really a necessity as there was with one exception no right of way with road crossings, livestock on tracks, etc...of course if a person were on the track the headlights helped [I admit I'd rather have headlights] but they never did protect against other trains therefore it was not unsafe.
I could go on and on but given my druther's I'd still wish I cold have the chance to ride those trains in regular service again. As I've told rob they had a masculine feel to them where now things have to be antiseptic [OK..not really.]I'm glad I had the chance to ride and run them --one orthe other--for 30 years.
I rode on almost all of the "old" equipment spoken of on this site up until I was 9 years old, 1964. Rode on many R-1/9s and the "Newfangled" R-10s, flourescent lights were a REAL BIG DEAL at the time. One of my favorite sounds on the R1/9s was the brake handle swinging back an forth, with its rythmic clang, clang. Since I was in the Bronx I have vague memories of the BMT Standards and such. Unfortunately my parents moved to Jersey in '64 and I didn't ride much between then and '80. Have been riding daily ever since then.
Peace,
ANDEE
Let me tell you about the D's, or the Triplexes as I refer to them. They will majestic, big and powerful and when I rode them as the Sea Beach Express or the Brighton Express, it was like thunder roaring through the tunnel. They made a chugging noise, not real loud, but dynamic. You knew you were riding in a powerful unit. I'd give almost anything to ride in a Triplex again. If you never rode in one, you missed out on a real experience.
It's nice to find someone like you on this board. I'm basically sick of being one of the few people who feels the exact same way! That the R-142 is a well designed subway car in its deisgn simplicity and "blandness" and that's what subway cars are supposed to be like.
My favorite car is and always was the R-46.
But, Pigs the point I was making is that I too didn't ride a lot of the old subway cars ... and never had even seen one of those wooden trolleys in service.
But since joining the museum at New Haven I've grown to appreciate those old trolleys & now can understand what all the yada yada is all about now that I've ridden on a Lo-V, Hi-V, Hudson Tube car & Gate car
I'm also going to miss the Storm Window cars (Red Birds, Slant 40, R-32 & R-38) when they get replaced.
Mr t__:^)
I remember what seemed to be an eight of an inch of crud, steel dust and what ever on the R/1-9s except close to the doors were it ha been worn away by hands hold the doors or clothing brush against it. I recall check out the butts on the babes as they got up and left the trains, and being treated to a rattan imprinted butt. I remember the lights blinking or going off while riding over switches. Multipe blinking during snow storms. There was a time you could look from end to end of a train of R/1-9s because all the storm doors were cocked open. I thought of it as lookig down serpents throat, but it had lights. I remember the feeling of speed. After I learned how the stand properly in a subway , it seemed to slow a little. With out A.C. it didn't seem so hot. I guess because the heat was evenly spread around, and there were more stairs and exits/entrances for hot air to escape. I remember more doors out of service. They use to have potbelly stoves in the fair control areas of the El stations. I try to spot where the stove pipes came up thru the tracks. There was a ton of vending machines on the stations, gum, nuts, soda, combs and scales that old your fortune.
Some cars had half their lights out. Some cars had olive drab paint on the walls , with white ceilings . When the heat came on, from under the seats, you felt like your legs would cook, but you ears were still cold. Lots of white porcelain poles and handles with steel dust way up high.
Can ypou taste it now? You must make a nostailga ride.
avid
[There was a ton of vending machines on the stations, gum, nuts, soda, combs and scales that old your fortune.]
Some were still there into the 60s & 70s
[Some cars had half their lights out etc. ... etc.]
Some of this has to do with the lack of maint. in that time frame vs. a car type being a lemon.
Take for example the R-16 & R-17. Both have bad reputations yet the two that survive in museums are OK, because they get a lot of TLC & don't have two or three trips everyday.
Mr t__:^)
I don't remember the R-17s as having a bad reputation, except for their experimental air conditioning systems not working.
I too was surprised when a TA visitor to Branford said it, maybe it was just sour grapes from him, as he's a suit and can't operate anything anymore. We don't have much trouble at all with her. Even in the cold weather she like to gallop down the line.
Mr t__:^)
The only bad I could ever say about the R16-22 was I didn't like the GE control systems..for some reason the R16 was the biggest dog of the bunch; the IRT ones did much better. I can"t say why; most of my other feelings are prejudiced because I liked the prewars better.
It seemed everything went bad on the R16's and for this reason the R10 survived them. Maintenance? Poor on all types, some made it some didn't.[I'd make Corona barn the exception..had very little trouble with the Corona cars.
To be sure, deferred maintenance took its toll on the entire fleet. The R-16s probably suffered the most from this policy. I'm in no position to judge them, however, since I rode on them only twice.
The thing I remember most about the pre-WWII subway cars is that the BMT cars (Standards and Triplexes) always seemed to be a cut above those on the IRT (Low Vs) and IND (R 1-9s).
The BMT cars seemed to rattle less and ride more quietly, and just seemed more sturdily constructed. I remember riding once on one of the ex-SIRT cars which ran on the BMT in the late 50s, and noting to myself that it rode more like an IRT or IND car than a BMT car.
The other thing I recall fondly is the SEATING capacity of the Triplexes. Rather than being designed to cram in standing passengers, sardine style, the Triplexes actually had lots of seats (most of any subway car ever built, I think) and were designed to carry lots of SEATED passengers. I remember the outcry from Brighton line passengers when they were replaced by the R 32s.
-- Ed Sachs
T think the factor that made the Standards seem to ride quiter was they were on a full tie on a gravel bed. When tis was replaced with ties in concret the noise went up. The R/1-9s on the Rockaway line were quite too.
avid
We have a old BU el/gate car at Branford & she just glides down the line. Am wondering how a string of them would have sounded & felt on the Els of Brooklyn ? The best we can do right now is hook up the "G" trailer to it when she comes back from the TA.
Mr t__:^)
G is coming back?? I was under the impression is was a "permanent loan" deal. I've always thought of G as the "showpiece" of the NYTM, but I'd rather ride than look!
G is coming back sometime in 2003. Awww yes, she does roll down Branford's line even at 120 years old! Incredible....
-Stef
It's a 5 year loan
Peace,
ANDEE
[I've always thought of G as the "showpiece" of the NYTM, but I'd rather ride than look!]
My thoughts exactly ... too bad the TA Museum doesn't make up a train of their old woodies.
Mr t__:^)
You have three or four more of those gate cars in the storage barns at BERA!
You just might see a train of them some day. I'd love to see that!
I was going to add that very remark. I understand that at least one more wouldn't take too much work to add her to the operating fleet.
With the growing subway/el group to complement the trolley guys & gails only good things can happen up there.
Mr t__:^)
I rode the 1300 types when i lived on Fresh Pond Rd, shortly before they were replaced with the Q'S the semi convertibeles were my favorite,in the summer,when they were waiting at Metropolitan Ave the smell of the ties mixed in with the motor smell and the folage near the tracks is a memory which will last me forever,as kids we would follow the conductor as he floped the seats over to face the direction of travel we came behind him and floped them over the other way,one day we got caught and put out onto Metropolitan Ave,we as kids knew how to sneek back in and did through the rest room window and back onto the trains.riding the platforms were fun, at speed looking down onto the street.....i miss it.i still remember waiting at the Fresh Pond Rd station in the winter morning with my dad near the old stove untill the train came, again the gate cars only the sides were installed and nice and toasty warm inside.i don't care how nice and new the cars are today...you cannot ever capture that feeling of that time again....ever.
Would have felt GREAT. Too bad you can't get the 1227, 1339 [I think it is] and the 659 together to run over Brooklyn again. I might even make a special trip east for it. IIRC you do have those 3 at Branford?Would be a typical Brooklyn el mismatch too..they had many.
It's 1349 Ed!
In addition to 659 I believe they also have 1362 and trailer 197.
Great googa mooga man! a whole 5 cars complete with one trailer.I wasn't sure which 1300 they had but didn't know there were two...so that gives 4 motors and a trailer. All BRT too. To be honest I never rode the typical mixed train , only gates left when I discovered "Myrt" were the 1300's. Did ride 5 cars of them which is as good as someone my age could get..unless I lived in Brooklyn earlier. Would have been neat to see and ride the BMT mixed consists over all the els as they were. Likewise for Manhattan.
In the 1940's they ran the 600's, 900's, 1200's & 1400's mixed together.
For some reason they always kept the 1300's in separate trains except for an occasional 100 or 200 trailer. As a result I got the impression that the 1300's could not run mixed with the others.
Jeff H posted here many months ago that he knew of no reason why they couldn't be mu'ed, and that maybe that was just policy at the time.
I did find one or two photos of a 1300 in a mixed consist in the Brooklyn el book but yes it was rare. Like Jeff H I see no reason they shouldn't be mixed.. the 1200 1300 and 1400 what I knew of them, not much other than running Q's and riding 1300's would have seemed all three series would be more compatible than the earlier 600, 900, 1000's etc yet all these were mixed with 1200's at one time or anothe.
They have over a 1/2 dozen wooden elevated cars in the collection. Some are in pritty bad shape, some pritty good ... all are inside now & an effort is under way to raise the tracks (above storm tide level) and put plastic under the ties to reduce the dampness. Both the wooden & steel cars need that to help save them.
Mr t__:^)
What about the Standard? Last I saw (a year and a half ago) it was in sad shape, the carbody was coming apart. I've seen pictures of Branford from years ago, and it looks like the car had been in the same place all this time. Will there be any attempt to restore it, or is it more of a lost cause?
2775 was given a coat of paint in the mid-90s. AFAIK its motors need to be refurbished.
Branford's roster of BRT el equipment: 659, 1227, 1349, 1362,
197 (blind trailer) and 999 (former instruction car).
197 (blind trailer) ... built in 1888 by Pullman.
Blind ? Was it a coach hauled behind one of those little steamers & never had motors or lights/controller, i.e. it had to be put in the middle of a electric train ?
Mr t__:^)
Those trailers ran quite well between two gate cars with motors. They looked just like the other gate cars, but did not have traction motors or motorman cabs. They drew power for their lights via a ceiling level jumper cable on the end platform attached to a motorized neighbor. A trailer sandwiched between two motors ran quite well as a three car set.
I rode them many times on the Lex!
In the early 60's when i lived at Fresh Pond Rd, i would take my dog for a walk twards the playground then known as farmers oval, and be near the B.M.T. tracks as the standard cars headed to Metropolitan Ave,the standards were very quiet runing on the ballasted track,heading to the overpass of the L.I.R.R. tracks,my friends and i would play at the end of the ball field at the playground and compare the L.I.R.R.trains to the B.M.T.cars there was a tower across from the ball field which i guess is gone now it was for the L.I.R.R.but the standards were very quite.
The ball field and park are still there and are used frequently by the locals during the warmer months.
Are we talking about Mafera Park (ex Farmers Oval) here? It's off of Fresh Pond Road. It was completely renovated a few years back. It now inclues a roller hockey rink and everything :) They did make the playground area a lot smaller but from what I heard the Police Athletic League and the 104th Precint had a lot to do with the new design.
Shawn.
Yea, but where the ball field runs along the L.I.R.R.tracks the ones that run under the B.M.T. line was a hill of dirt sloping down to the fence line,we dug some rathar large boulders out to let them roll down to the fence,is that old tower still there ? last time i saw that was in 1966.also i herd that a new building went up near the old conductors building thats near the throat to the Fresh Pond yard,is it a new building replacing the old one ?
Thanks Karl! I asked about Farmer's Oval on this site about a year ago, and no one had ever heard of it.
I had the feeling it was between Fresh Pond Road and Metropolitan Ave.
Weren't the Fresh Pond yards originally known as Lutheran Yards?
Yes,i used to play in the old Fresh Pond carbarn in the early 60's and even played in a trolley car that was on the 2 nd fl as an instruction car, it might have a Peter Witt type it was in fair condition.i herd the older people who lived in my apartment house just on the other side of the parking lot at Fresh Pond Rd station mention they rode the Luthern line so named because of the cemeterry at Metropolitan Ave,any photos of the trolley barn would be nice if anyone has any.the doors rolled up into pockets we kids used to jump the pits and there were bulls eyes at the rear wall.
I think you are talking about the new NY & Atl Tower just West of their freight yard (inbetween the Bayridge & Metropolitian overpasses).
Mr t__:^)
What exactly is a tower good for around here? Nothing is signalled that I know of. All switches in or near the yard are manual.
Shawn.
almost directly across from the ball park years ago.
I was lucky to be able to experience the R-1/9s and BMT standards when they were still around. I gravitated more towards the former because they had signs up front, while the BMT standards did not. The spur-cut bull and pinion gears on the prewar equipment provided a nonstop serenade of musical sound. There was nothing like barrelling through a tunnel with the gears wailing away. Not to mention the air compressor, braking (tch-ssssss) and door sounds. And if there were no headlights, it was a real treat. During the summer months, the ceiling fans would be on, providing some degree of air circulation in the cars.
Incandescent lighting could be found at many IND stations, resulting in dimmer lighting than what is seen today.
The good old days.
Well, I don't remember too much about the pre-R cars, but I DO have many memories of the R-1/9 class cars, especially those on the Jamaica Lines and the Eastern Division. These cars were in declining health when I rode them, and were nearing the ends of their days. The ones on the Jamaica line, which were the R-6 (all three flavors) and R-7 varieties, were in awful shape, rattling, wheezing, hot the summer, cold in the winter, some with their lights out, plagued by breakdowns and dead motors; their only saving grace was the occasional hot rod set with a frisky lead motor. The GE-outfitted R-6-2 seemed to be especially fast, sometimes reaching or exceeding 50MPH (my guess). The R-6-3 were plagued by problems; the ones that broke down on me all seemed to be the R-6-3s. But these were great trains nonetheless, with their peculiar air sounds and groaning bull gears. In Eastern Division, where the R-7a and R-9 lived (cars #1440 to #1802), some of them got NYCT paint jobs, silver and blue, with pistachio green interiors - AWFUL! A sacrilege. AND the backbreaking fiberglas seats in the #1500s and up, like those they put into the R10 and R16. Many, many memories of these classic cars, which provided 35 to 40 years of yeoman service in some cases.
Those were the days, my friends
We thought they'd never end.... **
wayne
"Those Were The Days" by Gene Raskin
(C) 1968 TRO-Essex Music Co. All Rights Reserved
IIRC thelowest number on the Eastern eventually became 1360-1370 or in that area as more new cars came to Jamaica yard. Didn't care for the MTA paint scheme but liked the Pistachio green interiors. One would wonder why after those rotten fiberglass cushions [must have been some passenger complaints] had been on the R10/16 that they'd keep getting more of that shape for the R7/9. They were awful. One of the church people I knew rode the J and told me how bad they were..I told her to watch for a car with a 1400 number.(some of them got them too).
If you think the equipment was bad in the 70's the worst in my memory was about 1966 on the Jamaica cars..E,F,GG. They moved fast enough but because of air line contamination the doors caused many delays as well as many overcharged feed valves causing sticky brake problems. When the R38's arrived they did get a chance to repair this fleet. They were the lowest numbers and highest numbers. All the R6 were uptown, moved later to Queens.
Toward the end it seemed the poorest although the newest were out of East New York.Seemed [in my opinion] that they never could maintain them right there; even if much like the AB 's.
Yes, those were the days, except for the Lackawanna MU's they were the last of the days that made me love electric railroads; I was glad to be able to run the R1-9 as late as they were around.
Ah, so they did manage to repair those R-1/9s which were dropping like flies in August of 1966. Jamaica Yard had to go so far as to borrow 32 R-16s for GG service, and as a result a group of BMT standards were yanked off the scrap line and put back in revenue service with the S for Scrap painted over where it had been applied.
And if memory serves me correctly, that was just over a year from the day when you first rode a subway train. Was it July 23? or thereabouts. I know it was a Sea Beach train. Did those breakdowns in '66 have any effect on your A line, or were they using a different car on that line?
The A line then was nearly all Steve's beloved R10's, here and there an R1-9. But the uptown fleet--Concourse and Wash.Heights had nowhere near the breakdown rate the Queens fleet had, especially had virtually no door problems. Steve is right about the R16's borrowed..guess they had to get R1-9 repaired and having more cars was the way to do it, and they did get it done. They HAD TO.
I can vouch for the concourse fleet - that's where I worked. Dead motors galore (and still they climbed the concourse) but door and air problems were rare. Of course half the fleet was dark but hey, made for better loving. The Mosholu (concourse) yard and the 207 shop was able to keep the 1's through 10's cooking and still had enough old timers who remembered what they worked like when they were new.
The A line was almost totally R10, the CC was exclusively 4's, 6's and 9's and was the D until the 32's arrived. B and D got the 32's and whatever was new. That was when the troubles began. I started out on the older cars and preferred them so it was rare when I got stuck on the newer lemons. After all, real conductors live BETWEEN cars, not in 'em ... and when I got done with school car, the attitude was "you know the R1/9's and don't mind them, here's your brake plug and have a nice fricking day" ...
The AA got R-32s as well when the Chrystie St. connector opened. You wouldn't know an AA train had pulled in until you actually saw it at 42nd St. - the R-32s were that quiet. E trains lumbered in, R-1/9s snarling and hissing. A trains came in screaming down that southbound incline into the station, and stopped on a dime every time.
Yep ... when they came into 205th northbound, someone would have to yell "railroad!" at us so we wouldn't get smacked in the face by them wailing in. Now, folks diss the "brightliners" as so much junk. Then again, wonder what they would say to live R1/9'ers. I still preferred the older cars since they'd been around since I was an egg. Them was real subway cars, not the tintoys that replaced them. :)
My first AA ride stands out. It was on May 7, 1967 from 42nd St. to 81st St. Other than going neck-and-neck with a D train out of 59th St., the thing I remember most was the bull and pinion gears wailing away at about E above middle C all the way to 72nd St. Not to mention tunnel lights flickering past. All those marvelous sounds. No sooner had that train left 81st and we were walking down the platform to the Museum of Natural History when an A train thundered past in a blaze of teal and white in a matter of seconds (can't remember if it was 8 or 10 cars). I had just seen the R-10s do their stuff for the first time.
On the way back to 42nd St., we ran alongside another D train for a brief period, and I vivdly remember seeing the backlit "Coney Island" side signs. In 1967, you could still find backlit side signs on the R-1/9s.
Big Ed: One of the things that confound me is how so many of you know exactly what car ran on what route. I'm still trying to digest the R series, the standards, the multi sections, etc. I'm an ace on the D's, but that's about it. I'm learning fast, though. Thanks fort he info.
Guess it's a matter of having been young then and absorbing everything well, likewise of course being consumed with an interest in trains. [and ships, mostly inland, cars and music of the 50's].
Not to brag, I doubt if I could learn lets say computers enough to make a living nowadays but can remember where all car types ran on all parts of NYCT as well as much of Chi., some Philly, NY Central, ad infinitum. Nice to know and not bashful about it, but would have put more money in the bank had I learned to fix vehicles.
You know how I feel about the Thundering Herd.:-) Rest assured I was just as fond of the old timers, especially if I was lucky enough to get a train of them on the A.
You're real close - it was on July 21, 1965 and, yes, I've determined it was an N train. We left for home on the 23rd, which coincidentally was the last day of service for the Triplexes. I'm still kicking myself for not having seen any of them.
The E, F, and GG lines were impacted by the Jamaica Yard crisis.
Hey Fred,
Lest any of these young ones could know, in the late 1960's the failure rates of the R9s was horrific, thanks to extreme deferred maintenance. It got so bad that ABs already marked with a large "S" for scrap were taken off the scrap line and put back into service for awhile! Had it not been for the unnecessary and untimely demise of the D-Types, these too would have been used to stem the high failure rates of the R9s, till newer equipment arrived in greater numbers.
Oh yes, this delay in the arrival of R38s was due to a strike at the St. Louis Car Co.
How I miss those ABs, D-types, and yes, the R9s
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Right, those BMT standards were given a last minute stay of execution when those 32 R-16 were loaned by the Eastern Division to Jamaica Yard. By February of 1967, the situation at Jamaica Yard had eased, so much so that the R-16 were returned to the Eastern Division and those BMT standards met their ultimate fate.
Just as the demolition of the outer end of the Jamaica el is a sore spot for Chris R-27/R30, the premature slaughter of the Triplexes is a sore spot for me. I really wish I could have ridden on them back then.
the R/30s were premature as well.
avid
So were the forest green R-10s.
Although I hated when they painted those R-9's the MTA paint scheme with the pistachio interiors & hard seats, in case anyone is interested, there is one on display in the NYS Museum in Albany as part of the NYC exhibit. Its right next to an old NYC fire truck and a whole reproduction of a Chinatown Street. By the way, the rest of the museum is excellent too.
I grew up in Brooklyn in the 1950's.I remember riding on all sorts of old cars-open gates,C's,Q's,multis,Triplexes,standards,and a good part of my life on Low-V's.Firts of all,the gears made a very pleasant accelerating noise and there were great window views-the Low V's had a "steering wheel" brake control which I used to "drive" the train.The C's were homemade rickety contraptions that were fun to ride.The open gates were antiques that were great fun to ride.How can I say this-the old trains had character and were full of strange noises and creaks with rattan seats and whirring overhead fans-it was a totally different experience.The els were tops ,especially the Fulton Street line.The first time my mom took me to Broadway Junction I was transfixed.I'm glad you enjoy the new trains-but they are entirely too impersonal for me.Thanks for asking the question.
Amen brother. Guess I'm about your age except grew up in the Bronx but travelled all over the city. The IRT my first love but share your feelings for the BMT you once knew. Lucky me I did get to ride C's and BU's too.
I agree with joeb, I grew up in Brooklyn in late 40s early 50s, and riding the old cars was great, driving the Low Volts on the Bdwy 7th Ave Express from Times Sq to Dyckman St was a blast with the wheel breaks, or riding on a warm summer day, with the window down on the Brighton Express between Kings Hwy and Prospect Park, or over the Manny Bridge. Fond Memories.
Bob: It's the first time I can remember hearing you praise the Triplexes. I hope that's the train you're referring to since the Brighton carried both the D's and B's. When I rode your favorite train from 42nd Street to Prospect Park, it was exhilirating. When we crossed the Manny B, I knew we were getting close to Ebbets Field. When we pulled out of the tunnel and whooshed into Prospect Park Station it was almost like entering human heaven. But you wouldn't know that because you were a rotten Yankee fan. A Yankee fan from Brooklyn. Pure heresy.
I was still a child when I rode the R6-R9 cars during their last years on the 'F' and the 'LL'. By this time most of the subway was dominated by postwar cars, with the round roofs, relatively large door windows and either a stainless steel skin, a solid red or black (I know now it was supposed to be olive green) paint scheme, a light green/off-white scheme, or the evermore frequent MTA white and blue scheme. The sides, for the most part were smooth (or fluted on some stainless steel cars). Many of the stations on the 'F' had fluorescent lighting, including my home station. In contrast, the R6-9 cars were grimy black on the outside, had old fashioned railroad roofs and large round rivet heads sticking out of the sides. Because of the use of dimmer incandescent light bulbs, there would always be yellowish light coming from the windows and openings, which stood out in contrast from the bright, white light of the stations' fluorescents. They tended to have a strange oily smell, common to the "old" cars but rare on the newer ones. Even when passing by in front of you they looked unusual: the radically different window sizes between the doors and the sides caused the blur of the passing train to have an up-and-down pattern, as opposed to the smoother constant flow of the slant R40's and 42's.
Everything about the R6-9's had a brutish, archaic aspect to it. When they entered the station they made a loud, but not unbearable, r-r-r-r sound as opposed to the smoother, finer sound of the newer cars. When the doors opened they would start quickly then just as quickly decelerate at an uneven rate as they receded into the door pockets. On most newer trains the doors moved in a smooth motion from beginning to end. The door cushions on the old cars had an uneven, baggy appearance whereas similarly shaped cushions on the R17-R32 cars were neat and uniform. The interior of the car had dark green paint, which combined with the incandescent light looked somewhat depressing, compared to the light blue paint and brighter lights of the R40. The incandescent lights themselves were just bare bulbs in ceiling fixtures, with no decorative covering whatsoever (although they provided enough light to see clearly). The roll signs were unevenly shaped (2 small and one large) with old fashioned cranks, unlike the newer, larger, more attractive, green-backlit signs of the R32 and 38. (However, I could at least look out the small window underneath the roll signs.) Many times the old seats were made of anachronistic wicker (as opposed to the more modern fiberglass), which when frayed was rather irritating to tender skin.
You here the two-stage sound of the air brakes, and as the train starts with a lurch and accelerates, the motor sounds grow from a low growl to loud groan. As the train travels through the tunnel the groaning sound cuts out every so often as the train coasts, leaving just the thunking of the wheels over the rail joints, then suddenly the groaning continues where it left off as more power is applied. Looking toward the front of the train you see the interior lights wink out briefly several cars down, then the car after that, then the next car, and then the next, until finally it's your car's turn. You're suddenly enveloped in darkness, with nothing but the incandescent tunnel lights outside the windows for lighting. Just as suddenly the interior lights snap back on, and you watch as the lights in the car after yours wink out briefly, then the next, and then the next.
As your train finally enters the station bright white light from the fluorescents come in through the windows. As the groan subsides to a grumble you prepare to leave the train and head for the doors. The doors open, and when you step out onto the platform you look to your left and right. What you see is a row of black cars, with a less-than-sleek exterior, yellowish incandescent light coming from the windows and doors, and making a chug-a-chug-a noise as the primitive compressors operate (newer cars tend to have a more vibrating, as opposed to a pulsating, sound). As usual, the black cars provide a stark contrast with the white tiles of the station. You watch as the doors close in an abrupt fashion, bumping into each other in the process. The two-stage sound of the air brakes is heard (I always thought it sounded more like tsshh-haahhhhhhh myself) and the train lurches out of the station, first growling then groaning.
That's what is was like riding on the R6-R9's, at least when I was travelling to Herald Square (Macy's, Gimbel's, Korvette's) or Jay Street (A&S). I didn't ride them on the elevated sections as much, but when I did they could really move! If you want to see for yourself what they looked like compared to newer cars at the time, Dave has plenty of great pictures of them in action here. Just download, sit back, and imagine....
You've brought back a ton of memories, my friend. The R-1/9s had air-operated doors, which did slow down before receding into the door pockets as they opened. The doors on the R-10s did this as well, albeit faster. When the doors closed, the "pshhht" sound you would hear was the load sensing valve. Those cars, like their prewar IRT and BMT counterparts, had spur-cut bull and pinion gears, resulting in the moaning and groaning and rise in gear pitch as they gathered speed. Postwar cars beginning with the R-10s have helical-cut bull and pinion gears, which are much quieter.
Then there were the ceiling fans and the clanging handbrake handles.
You can say all you want about the old cars, how noisy, dirty, hot in summer, cold in winter and just generally unattractive they were, but to tell you the truth, those cars got people to work and play in a time when so many more people relied on and used the subways to get from here to there and back.
I basically rode the Hi and Low-V's since I grew up a block from the Livonia Ave. el in Brooklyn. I also rode the Standards and Triplexes to the beach during the summer. The R 1/9s came later for me. You can have the new cars. They may be sleeker, faster and neater-looking, but they are not the same as these old cars, not for this old-time subway fan. I even detest the new "roll-signs."
It's interesting to note that when I took the "Day One on the IRT tour" back in 1997, our tour guide informed us that right up to the late 50's, the Broadway-7th Ave Local kept to a 5 minute headway, religiouly, using Hi and Low-V cars! These old cars were the backbone of a very much-used transit facility for many years and did not owe the City one dime when they quit.
Carl M.
That they did. What I wrote was my recollection of I thought of them as a child, and back then I really did not like them much. At that time I liked the R-42's best: nice, new, air-conditioned in the summer. Now, with a better perspective of what they represented, I'd love to see them in action again. Unfortunately, I don't think the Transit Museum will be able to trot those cars out anytime soon 8-(.
Thanks for the kind thoughts on the equipment that was so dear to me in my youth. I liked the equipment [then] of all 3 divisions but the High V and Low V were my favorites, add the Flivvers and steinways which looked same as the others. They all still live in m y memory, heavy on the High V's. Then add the Manhattan L MUDC's.
They did a fine job as you say. Like you I detest the digital signs. Guess with constant route changes they're easy to set up though.
I also remember the Flivvers, Steinways and World's Fair cars. Some of the Flivvers wound up on the Culver Shuttle in the late 50s. I did not ride the Third Ave. el in Manhattan so I never rode the MUDCs on that line. I also fondly recall the Multi's and especially the Q's on the Myrtle el. I do regret never riding the outer portion of the Fulton St. el(I had many chances) or riding on the gate cars. Memories, memories!
Carl M.
I forgot to mention the ceiling fans, thanks! 8-) I was never impressed with their ability to blow air, but they always reminded me of an old GE fan we had, also with steel blades. It was dangerous for kids (you could stick part of your HAND through the bars), but it really knew how to air! As for the clanging handbrake, I suspected that's what it was, but I was never entirely sure. I remember it mostly from my trips back from Coney Island, where for practical reasons we stayed in the last car and not the first. As the train raced along the elevated then along the express tracks north of Church Ave., you could here the clank of the handbrake handle or the clank of the bar and chain outside the storm door. Never heard that on any other cars because there was no large handbrake handle and the bar and chain were located farther from the door.
I kind of liked the R-10's, they could be noisy as hell (I hated it when A trains passed by at 81 St and Central park West) but they at least sounded fast when riding them, and like what someone here said, they sounded like no other car. 8-).
One of the tricks some people used to stop that handbrake [on the Blackall staff brakes] was stuffing newspaper in them. One night I was securing a train, taking the last stretch to tighten that brake, and zing..it let go and I went sailing against the bulkhead, my lower back striking right at the window sill. I had to go to the hospital for examination but they found me OK after X rays.
Reason?? the handbrake being stuffed with paper and the top casting slid off the ratchet. In the future I checked first.
You certainly got an earful when a train of R-10s would roar past 81st St. They bore down on that station going northbound with a full head of steam. Not only did the R-10s SOUND fast, they WERE fast. It made for a devastating combination when coupled with the CPW dash. Their compressors had a sound all their own, and their doors were the fastest in all of New York.
I credit those immortal cars for forging my allegiance to the A line.
The only thing they forged in me was envy 8-). Taking the F in Manhattan or the AA up Central Park West was slow, I always watched as the express A and D trains left us in the dust. These days, the C and E trains run faster than the A south of 59th Street.
I felt the same way while standing at 81st St. while A trains would thunder past and D trains would howl and wail as they sped by (the R-32s would streak effortlessly once they arrived on the scene). All I could think was, I've got to ride on one of those express trains ASAP. Then on November 24, 1967, my wish came true. Since then, I've ridden on that express jaunt scores of times.
I remember one instance in which we were heading for the Museum of Natural History, and our AA train left 59th St. just after a D train had left. I could see the end bulkhead of the last car of that D train ahead of us, but with the way those R-32s could move, we had no chance of gaining any ground. That train left us in the dust and then some.
A trains still come tearing down that downhill run between 50th and 42nd Streets, although it's not as terrifying as it used to be with the R-10s. Between 34th and 23rd Streets, I can remember E trains getting an edge on the A train I would be on, but I knew we'd blow right by it at 23rd and leave it behind. Southbound A trains have always skipped 23rd at a good clip, even today. Northbound has been another story for as long as I can remember, and, yes, C and E trains will often zoom past an A train.
Since you enjoy the sounds of doors on those cars I'll clue you in about the sounds of the doors on the old IRT. They sounded something like opening and closing sliding doors on older Chevy vans; when closing they'd pause for a split second about 6-8" before a full close and then shut. The center door on the battleships [manual door cars, but center ones were air] sounded something like somebody breaking wind smoothly! Didn't smell luckily.
For motor sounds the High V, Low V and Flivvr had the stoutest sounds with their 400 HP and pulling 3 trailers in 10 cars, 2 in 7, etc. Ten's could be split into two 5 car trains and often there were 3 motor 5's.
I do remember the doors on the BMT standards. Smooth and quiet. Once in a while, a door leaf would be improperly adjusted and would whip open and slam shut.
I've read that the manual vestibule doors on the Hi-Vs were described as "brutal", causing arm and back injury to many a conductor.
Weren't the Flivers motor cars only? They weren't compatible with any other prewar IRT rolling stock and consequently ran only in solid trains.
All the pre-1915 cars had manual doors. When the center doors were added to the 1904 and l907 groups they were air [in 1910]. The 1915 cars included both High V trailers and Flivvers, a separate group of 12 Steinways too. All these plus the 1916 and 1917 cars also but not MUDC. This came later. As you're quoting the Interborough Fleet book you caan find exact dates of MUDC conversions in there. I think the first factory MUDC cars were in 1922. The others made MUDC about 1920. [Likewise the BMT standards too].
As much as I liked the "battleships" the way the IRT men I knew used the term it referred to all the manual door cars I wish the IRT had shelled out the money, even if in short supply, to convert the whole bumch of those miserable things..the old heads told me they sent a lot of men to the hospitals. After the last group was made MUDC in 1936 there were just enough to have one on each end of a ten car train, or on one end of a 5 or 7. Just like the beloved Pennsylvania the IRT was miserably stingy with anything that would make life better for their train crews/engine crews. Just compare to BMT amenities, even to the point where the IRT could have moved the old keybox for signals up to cab level, and done like the BMT. But enough of baiting my number one RR.
The Flivvers being 400 HP cars indeed had trailers, the same make up as the High-V and Low-V...7 motor 10. 5 motor 7's etc. Only in their last years they scrapped the trailers first so Flivvers ran in 10 motor tens. The photo in my book with 4111 ..caption is no lie..I had just gotten off the train, 10 motors..and it showed what a solid train of the 400 HP motor cars could do.
The Steinways were the only ones built to run all-motors, powerI believe was 280., maybe the same motors as the AB's? Oh yes, the 1938 World"s Fair too.
The four fleets were esentially incompatible; except Low-V's and Steinways could be MU'd but not normally run together because of the power differences. Major exception was the Low-V trailer -Steinway mix on 3rd ave. in last years.
The High-V obviously had to remain by itself--with high voltage controls would burn out the entire systems on other cars. Likewise had AMRE brake which was incompatible with AMUE. But they could run or trail with others..air only.
The Flivvers had AMRE brake like the High V's but Low=V control so had to keep to themselves. Like the High V could probably run air , OK maybe power too with Low V's but didn't.
So look-alikes or not the IRT had 4 separate fleets. Phew. More later if you wish.
Are you the Ed that wrote "They moved the millions"? That's my favorite NYC subway book!
He is the very same ... I've just printed off a copy of his post to add as a supplement ;-)
Mr t
As Thurston has already confirmed my identity I will say thank you so much for the kind words! Best wishes.If you're ever in Livingston, MT and I'm still here look me up/
They could have kept a few Gibbs Hi-Vs on the Bowling Green shuttle. Not only would you have essentially a museum train doing the honors, but there would have been no need to make any door modifications such as those done to the four R-12s used in later years. Just use the center doors at both stations and leave the vestibule doors closed.
They could have kept a few Gibbs Hi-Vs on the Bowling Green shuttle. Not only would you have essentially a museum train doing the honors, but there would have been no need to make any door modifications such as those done to the four R-12s used in later years. Just use the center doors at both stations and leave the vestibule doors closed.
Almost forgot: yes, the BMT standards had 280 hp per car as did the Steinways. IMHO the standards could have used four motors per car, as heavy as they were, or at least beefier motors.
Trying to map out which streets the El uses through Brownsville and East New York.
Anybody?
If you're referring to the New Lots line I think it's Livonia all the way thru...before the turn into Livonia I think Sutter/Rutland is in East Flatbush??/
The Jamaica el thru East NY runs on Fulton, and Broadway before Alabama.
Canarsie el on Snediker and Van Sinderen, I forget which one first Canarsie bound...
The L runs on Snediker northbound only at Atlantic. Elsewhere it is both ways on Van Sinderen. The Altantic simplification will eliminate the Snediker portion.
The section of the 3 at Sutter Avenue runs above East 98th Street.
Does anyone know if Straphanger Designs still has a website? The link in this site doesn't produce the website. Also, would anyone know if any other vendor carries similar merchandise? Thanks to all who respond.
Other than me and Isaac Shomer, is anyone either considering or definately going? It seems Branch Avenue is competing with 63rd Street...
I was thinking of taking a ride down there. I was going to go to Branch Ave. from L'enfant Plaza, where I would transfer from the Orange line and then take it all the way up to Greenbelt.
Wish I can go, but I am still have to look for a place to live, tired of living with my wife s friends out in Clarke County. Need a place of my own, so my wife could come over from Maui
Keep me posted, if possible.
I still get irritated, however, every time I look at the DC METRO map and notice that no METRO lines extend beyond the Beltway in Prince George's County. Other lines extend beyond the Beltway in Montgomery County (and pretty well beyond it at that!) and in Virginia. I'm still trying to get Dr. Gridlock to come up with a plausible reason for this. It sure seems like a slap at Prince George's residents to me.
The original system had the green line going to Rosecroft Raceway.
For those interested, take a virtual tour at wmata.com. I can see pictures and Congress Heights has Type II arches.
Place the blame squarely where it belongs - the NIMBY contingent. There was rabid debate/wrangling for years about the route and terminus. Many didn't want Metro coming out there at all. All the usual complaints like "we don't want the undesirable element coming here." Unfortunately, they made far more noise than those who want Metro, so that's why the concluding segment is as it is.
Now that traffic has become just as miserable coming up from lower Prince George's and beyond as in Montgomery Co. and Nova, there is talk of extending the Green Line down to Waldorf or even St. Mary's along Route 5. The debate over that should be quite entertaining. I'll be sure to have something cool to drink. We'll see what happens next decade.
If you look at the updated metrorail map, I'm not sure if its on WMATA's website or not yet, but its in the stations and the trains, the Blue Line extension to Largo Town Center will finally place the Metro outside the Beltway, barely. Who knows when this thing will ever be built, though. Talk is cheap. I've never heard so much talking about where to extend it to and no building is ever done.
They should have extneded it out to the Capital Centre in the first place, which would have made the thing more attractive for events and given WMATA a large park-ride facility, if they could have worked out a deal with Abe Polin for weekday morning and afternoon usage.
It is.
Hey I'm glad to see Metro expanding, particularly through my old neighborhood, Columbia Heights (which certainly needed a shot in the arm). But I don't think you folks in the DC area have much cause for complaint about slow expansions. Compare the amount of expansion in that area to the expansion in the NY area or (shudder) the Philly area.
Place the blame squarely where it belongs - the NIMBY contingent.
Interesting observation. This is one thing I hadn't thought about with regard to Prince George's Co. (and here I am thinking primarily of the northern part, where an extension on the Green Line might have continued to Beltsville, and possibly even to Laurel). Are there any references around that talk about this at the time of the planning. I wasn't around for the early planning days (mid-century); by the time I arrived in the Laurel area in the mid-sixties, later planning was already under way. As a former New Yorker and lover of public transportation I would have voiced my opinion strongly for extension to the Laurel area; no opinions seemed to have been solicited by that time. Strange how the phrase "public transportation" resonates differently to different people (this was apparent in the reported NIMBY argument against Metro stations in Georgetown--not the only argument against a station in Georgetown; now, of course, many have to live with the final decision with regret)
In any event, it certainly seems strange that upper Prince Georgians would have more NIMBY clout than the Montgomery County residents, who
ended up with five stations outside the Beltway. I remember there were severe budgetary limits looming large in the planning, but lopping off three stations on the Red Line to Shady Grove might have yielded enough for another stop or two on the northern Green Line, going as far as Beltsville or Laurel (the local Laurel area press used to make much of the fact that Laurel actually had trolley service from Main Street in Laurel all the way to downtown Washington from about the beginning of the century to around the First World War). At the present time, such an extension does not appear to be even a gleam in planners eyes (and I don't think there would be a NIMBY problem now).
As for the possible extension in the southern part of the county, I don't think I will live to see it.
Steve Brookens loses control of local SEPTA union
I am back on line, now living 60 miles West of DC. Now I can go to some field trips and am freezing to death. Much different then 80 degree Hawaii
Welcome back, hope all is well
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks Andee, You would not believe how hard itis to find a place to live down here. I just signed a 30 page rental app. giving my life s history. such bs.
You must have moved not too far from me!
I am about 75 miles northwest of DC!
Sixty miles west of DC?? I used to live in that territory in 1981, in Winchester.
Yup, 8 Miles from Winchester in Berryville, if I get that apt I just put in for. Love the area, and a view of the N&S 1 block away
You're in the Shenandoah Valley? One of my favorite places. Never been there but know an awful lot about it because of my love of the Civil War. I could get from place to place real easily because I have a map of it in my head. You're not too far from the Blue Ridge either. You seem to landed in a good spot. Glad everything turned out great.
Guess they still got the drop-down window
in your 'ville, eh? :)
Archives and Smithsonian will be closed until about 6 PM, Saturday, January 20 for security reasons. I am sure this will confuse every tourist and Republican who rides the DC Metro that day. Looking foward to it...
The Republicans will be the ones trying to drive to DC that day.
Lol. Read my other (fictional) WMATA post.
I just read that one, that's a good idea!! Maybe we can just keep them on the Red Line by not allowing trains to stop at Metro Center or Gallery Place. Make them figure out how to get down there from Union Station. Maybe they can run two car trains for them too!!
Red line is my line, I don't want to even see one. Tourists on the DC Metro can't...
* figure out where they are going
* realize the train is a jungle gym, and the parents are more concerned about not losing farecards, people, or getting off at the right place to keep them in line
* figure out how to use the farecard machines either and since I have SmarTrip, I can only use the machines that can dispense passes and multiple farecards
* figure out how to use a faregate either
* figure out anything on the operator's console or how the train works, but look out the front window anyway. If they are really stupid, they will look out the right side.
In short, if you hear a train coming in and the wacky out of towner in front of you is moving slower than a R68, you won't catch that train.
figure out anything on the operator's console or how the train works, but look out the front window anyway. If they are really stupid, they will look out the right side.
That's pretty selfish. Who put you in charge of deciding if someone has a good enough reason to look out the front? Do you have a sixth sense to determine if someone is appriciating the railfan window enough? I couldn't care less about how the T/O console works, and I don't give a crap about signals. Therefore, am I not allowed to look out the front window? There are only two things I look at out of a railfan window: 1) How the tunnel is built, and 2) any type of provision for unbuilt lines. Next time before I look out a railfan window, I'll be sure to ask for your permission before I do so.
YOu have a valid reason, but I can tell when people don't.
Heypaul hasn't gotten my password, don't worry.
Archives and Smithsonian stations will be closed on January 20 until 6 PM. This will confuse the annoying tourist types who will be on the Metro that day. To save all the normal, smart, local democratic riders and railfans all the pain and suffering, trains for republicans, all citizens of the state of Florida, and tourists will run every half hour on all lines except red, where they will run every 15 minutes between Grosvenor and Silver Spring. None of these republican/Florida/tourist trains will operate the new 5000 series cars from CAF so these cars aren't messed up before a full 8 days of operation. Secret service, local police departments, and Metro Transit Police will make sure all these rules, as well as normal rules and regulations are followed.
>>>Heypaul hasn't gotten my password, don't worry. <<<
Are you absolutely certain of that???
Peace,
ANDEE
I know its unlike me to post such humor but you will notice all my sentences start with capital letters. I even capitalized "Heypaul" (something I will have to know for my exam next week). Also, no WMATAGMOAGH posts I can't recall posting have appeared yet.
Hi all-
Went for a little railfan trip today along the broadway section of the N,R in Manhattan, and the J,M lines also in Manhattan. Some observations/questions:
1)Beautiful mosaics uncovered at Prince, 28, 23, and 8th streets. I can't believe how fast they are working.
2)What is the newly renovated corridor (actually a platform not in service) of the canal street station between J,M,z and N,R going to be used for? Will existing service be rerouted to utilize the station...or was it repaired only for use as a passage?
3)Visited the Bowery station on the M train today...bot is it quite and in a state of disrepair!! It appears that the downtown side is being renovated? Does anyone have input on this one?
Mjb69
The Canal Street lower level will be the last stop in Manhattan to Brooklyn and first stop in Manhattan from Brooklyn on the trains that cross the South Side of the Manhattan Bridge (H Tracks). These trains will operate express on Broadway.
2)What is the newly renovated corridor (actually a platform not in service) of the canal street station between J,M,z and N,R going to be used for? Will existing service be rerouted to utilize the station...or was it repaired only for use as a passage?
Hi Michael,
Starting in August, this platform will once again be returned to passenger service after about a decade of disuse! It is connected to the Broadway tracks and will server trains crossing over the south side of the Manhattan Bridge. Click here for details.
3)Visited the Bowery station on the M train today...bot is it quite and in a state of disrepair!! It appears that the downtown side is being renovated?
The Nassau St. line is being reconfigured over the next year or two. Part of this reconfiguration will be the abandonment of the Queens-bound side of both the Canal Street and Bowery stations. In other words, both Canal and Bowery will each have one island platform and two tracks. The existing "downtown" platofrms will be refurbished. J4 track will be the Queens-bound track, J3 will be completely abandoned and J1 will be a non-revenue-service track only.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
I think they should connect the center and Queens-bound tracks at Canal Street to the corresponding tracks at Chambers Street. They should also extend the four-track configuration to Broad Street so that the J and Z trains can terminate there without delaying the M line. But, hey, I guess destruction is less expensive than construction, no matter how useful the construction may be!
- Lyle Goldman
A four-track run to Broad St. would be next to impossible. Nassau St. itself is quite narrow - so much so that the line is bi-level at Fulton St. - with no room for additional trackage. That segment was one of the tougher ones to build because of the tight quarters.
But could they at least build a lower level at Broad Street, even if it does go to two tracks just north of the station?
- Lyle Goldman
Listen very carefully.
That area of Manhattan is very congested below street level. That street is so narrow and has so much beteath it,aswell as north and south of it, you have to go to the street level just to change your mind. It has the "A" train beneath it, the 2 and 3 cross above it, not to mention telephone cables,water,sewer pipes and Con Ed cables and stream pipes.
avid.
Little wonder, then, that the 1931 segment from Chambers St. to the Montague St. tunnel cost $10 million to build in 1931 dollars. Of course, they hadn't started on the 6th Ave. line yet...
No. You listen very carefully.
What I'm saying now is, how about keeping the line the same way it is down to somewhere between Chambers and Broad Streets and then, south of that spot, build a new, diverging set of tracks that branch off and go below the current set of tracks, thus building a lower level at Broad Street. This way, during rush hours, the J and Z Trains can terminate on one level, and the M Trains can go through on the other level unobstructed. How about that?
- Lyle Goldman
The grade is thne problem. Chambers Street on the J/M/Z is a little more than two levels below ground (slightly lower than the 4/5/6 at Brooklyn Bridge). At the Fulton/Broadway/Nassau complex, the J/M/Z tracks are one and two levels below the surface, with the A/C tracks on Fulton four levels below the surface.
Those tracks pretty much create a wall that would force any new Nassau Street line to run five levels -- roughly 60 feet -- below the surface. While that might not be a problem going towards Broad Street, a rise of nearly three levels from Fulton to Chambers would be a pretty tough thing to manage, which would be made even tougher by the fact that the 2/3 tracks coming across Beekman Street from City Hall Park to Williams Street are three levels underground, below the J/M/Z but above the A/C tracks. That means the tracks would have to rise two levels in two blocks to be able to use Chambers Street, which is just too much of a grade to deal with.
Well said and explained.
avid
One correction: the and lower lines are one level apart, because there is only the one, clearly single level flight of stairs from Bway Nassau, then about 3 steps up to the Fulton St platform. The line is further back, and parallel to the Nassau line at that station and crosses it north of Fulton, but I'm not sure at which level.
The 2/3 crosses below the J/M/Z at Beekman Street, after it crosses under the 4/5 and the 6 City Hall loop, as well as the dual level BMT City Hall Station, which is why the Park Place Station is so deep. That would mean the lower J/M/Z would be about 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 levels below the surface, dropping down after crossing over the 2/3 tracks, by the time it reaches the Fulton Street station.
Really, the only connection possible in that area would be to run the lower level BMT tracks east on Ann Street, below the 4/5, and then ramp it down so it could get under the J/M/Z and 2/3 tracks at Nassau and William streets. Then it could hook up with the A/C tracks where Ann merges with Fulton Street and continue on to Brooklyn.
However, unless there's a big demand by residents of Southwest Queens and the Rockaways to have a one-seat ride to the east side of the NYU campus or to Union Square, I don't see this project starting any time in the next milenium :-)
> However, unless there's a big demand by residents of Southwest Queens and the Rockaways
> to have a one-seat ride to the east side of the NYU campus or to Union Square . . .
I don't quite see your logic here. The J/M/Z trains don't go near the NYU campus or Union Square. Also, the A and C trains do stop near NYU (at West 4th Street), so they do have a one-seat ride there!
- Lyle Goldman
It would be connected to the lower level of the City Hall station on the N/R, which has never been used. Going down Ann Street to hook up with the A/C tracks would allow Fulton Street trains in Brooklyn to run on the Broadway local tracks in Manhattan, though as I said, while it's workable from an engineering standpoint, I don't see a great pasaenger demand for that connection.
As big as Chambers St. is on the J/M/Z, there's just no place to extend the extra tracks on the south side of the station.
Larry Littlefield would be for that in conjunction with the Dekalb-Rutgers connection (and another connection in the same area between DeKalb and Cranberry St) because then if the Manhattan Bridge is ever totally lost, you could maintain both the 6th Av. and Broadway express service (plus add 8th Av. service and not have to use only Montague St. If the Bridge was lost, Brooklynites would probabaly be all for it.
Okay. I guess that explains it.
- Lyle Goldman
Hi folks,
Just a quick note to let everyone know that as of January 9th, the most recent edition (version 2.4b) of my book is finally shipping! After battling with several New York print shops, I finally found a shop that was able to deliver a good quality product at a fair price!
This is the final printing of the second edition, which was first released back in January, 1998, and will be the last version depicting the Manhattan Bridge as it exists today (north side open, south side closed) and with the existing "D-train" cover. This is a significant upgrade from version 2.2, and also encompasses many changes from version 2.3 as well. If you have 2.3 or 2.4a, my personal recommendation is to hold out for 3.0; if you have 2.2 or before, there is a *lot* of new stuff in here!
In this edition I have added a significant number of new diverging-route home signals--including the signals governing the routes along the 63rd St. connection in Queens, and details of the new V and W train services slated to begin in August.
I have added (starting in v2.3) two map pages depicting the anticipated track configurations on the Nassau Street line in lower Manhattan and at Atlantic Avenue on the Canarsie line, where much of the old and redundant ironwork will soon be dismantled. Also started in v2.3, there are two all-new colour signal pages (one of which depicts the most common wayside signs found on the system) and to-scale yard outlines are included on the main track pages.
Please note, there *will* be a third edition of the book, which I expect to release just in time for the massive service changes starting in late August of this year.
Please click on the image below for more information. I sell them directly (see the link), or they can be ordered from the Transit Museum and the Boston Street Railway Association.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
I don't mind your shameless plug & think you have a lot of friends here.
Mr t__:^)
I don't mind your shameless plug & think you have a lot of friends here.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for the very kind words. It's a pleasure to be amongst such an august group of transit people, and I'm just happy that my book has been able to help a few folks around here.
Thanks again!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Siberia, at the subway entrance on 50th Street 1/9.
Hope to get some pics for..
www.forgotten-ny.com
Too bad. I've been there..one of the few decent places in Midtown to get a drink.
At the MTA web site. Basically:
F and R via 63st both ways.
E not running at all, R to Jamaica CTR.
Its the second plan in the pamphlet about the 63st "detours." So get videos of the 8th/6th connection this weekend, It'll be a while before its used again.
Good advice.
avid
I rode the SIR today. Somebody made the comment that it is slow. I really don't think so. The local seems to get decent speed between stations and there are no annoying GT's.
The SIR looked nice in the snow, especially those beautiful fields around Tottenville.
I kinda like the old B&O signals. Are they the original signals or have they been re-done? I also notice that screens cover the signals, probably to prevent vandalism.
They seem to have a double green aspect when approaching, with a lunar white on top.
Also passed the Clifton facility, there seems to be an old yellow railcar sitting there, I think it was marked SIR 509.
SIR is a really nice railway though, and considering you can get from St.George to Tottenville in around 45 minutes, it's quicker than your local subway route.
Also you can two great radio stations in from NJ, Magic 98.3 and 94.3 The Point. Great variety you'd never hear on the boring NYC radio dial.
There doesn't seem to be much of a distance between Tottenville and NJ across the Arthur Kill. Would be cool if they could link up SIR so you could go to NJ from SI.
Does anybody know what is required to be an SIR T/O? They don't wear any uniform and dress like LIRR engineers.
Also a note on various sidings. They don't appear to be used, they were all covered with snow.
Wish I had a camera to take all those nice SIR pictures with snow (on the ground).
Alot of it is melting, it was warm and sunny today when I was there.
The B&O used colour position light signals that were even more position based than PRR signals. The line was originly signaled with standard B&O high signals. These consist of a large round head with up to 4 pairs of lights ( Y /, LW \, G |, R - ) and then above and below this head are up to 6 yellow or lunar white marker lights. A full B&O hi signal looks like this:
(W)--(W)--(Y)
......|
.....(G)
..(W)...(Y)
.(R).....(R)
..(Y)...(W)
.....(G)
......|
(W)--(W)--(Y)
......|
......|
Most of the marker lights are not used for automatic block signals so a block signal looks like this:
.....(W)
......|
.....(G)
..( )...(Y)
.(R).....(R)
..(Y)...( )
.....(G)
......|
......|
......|
......|
Anyway, these majestic signals were removed at some point and replaced by B&O dwarf CPL signals raised up on a high post. This is called a Pedestal Signal. Dwarf signals are typically more restictive than high signals. For example a green dwarf only means slow clear, not clear. A pedestal signal is a way for a RR to use a cheap dwarf, but get all the benifits of a high signal. However B&O signals are special. Because of the marker lights dwarf signals can display any and all asepcts a high signal can so in the case of the SIRR the posts are for added visivility.
In the aspect you described you did not see a double green aspect, but a vertical line of green (these are position lights after all). Both green lights act as one "light". The lunar white is to make the CPL aspect given less restrictive. With out the LW marker the signal would show Slow Clear, Slow Approach and Stop. With the marker the signal shows Clear, Approach and Stop and Proceed. I am disapointed that the SIRR had to cheap out and use these crummy signals. At least they are better than regular lights. FYI Amtrak replaced all its dwarfs at Chicago Union Station with US&S made (not GRS made as on the SIRR) B&O CPL dwarfs. I took some pictues of them.
For more information of B&O CPL signals you can visit the following websites:
The B&O C&S Department http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/csx4290/csdept.html
Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Color-Position Light Signals
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/7432/sigpics.html
Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Color-Position Light Signal Aspects
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/7432/signals.html
Thanks for the information. The SIR signals are different than anything I've ever seen, that's for sure.
On the LIRR, do the DE's and DM's have cab signalling or do they rely on position light signals?
DM's and DE's have cab signals, but the LIRR still uses fixed wayside PRR PL signals. While on the road cab signal indications superceede wayside signal indications.
What about the retired old diesel equipment? Did they have cab signals?
Of course. The LIRR has been cab signaled since the 1930's.
SIR only uses dwarf signals at St. George but they are still color indications. Red over Red with Lunar white, as long as there is a number plate on the signal is Rule 509A, stop and proceed announed over the radio. No number plate and it is stop and stay.
There are full dwarf (non pedestal) signals at Tottenville also. A number plate is of secondary importance as to pemissiveness. When the dwarf shows R-R (not red over red) it means Rules 292, Stop. If there is a lunar white marker light above the R-R the indication is upgraded to Rule 291, Stop and Proceed.
Check out this website: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/7432/signals.html
I was refering to the SIR rule book
Is there any transit service across the Arthur Kill? I've been trying to figure out hwo to ride the SIR and the Hudson-Bergen light rail in one trip.
Mark Michalovic
My SI Bus map doesn't show any service to NJ from Tottenville, nor anything across Kill Van Kull to Bayonne, so I guess you can't do it easily in one day. PATH, Newark City Subway & HBLR is much easier to do all at once.
BTW, John you went back to SIRT without us :-( Bet you had to ride INSIDE on the ferry !
Mr t__:^)
If you do this trip on a weekend or holiday, I can join you at Nassau, my new home station, and IIRC the last with a wood/asphalt platform.
-Hank
Ohhhh, you're way done near the end of the line. Lou from Brooklyn said he'll do another Field Trip there when the weather warms & the sun stays up longer. We haven't talked about weekday vs. weekend.
Mr t__:^)
Speaking of the ferry the boat I had going to SI looked newer and had bucket seats instead of the benches. I liked the big windows also.
Are they going to upgrade the ferry fleet or something?
That boat is from 1981. It's either the Newhouse or the Barberi. The other three boats are the Kennedy, American Legion, and Lehman, built in 1964-65. They're due for retirement within a few years, and replacement plans are in progress. Two other boats, the Austen and Noble, are used off-hours.
-Hank
The other three boats are the Kennedy, American Legion, and Lehman, built in 1964-65. They're due for retirement within a few years, and replacement plans are in progress.
Glad to hear the replacement plans are in progress. I was on the Kennedy twice on Sunday - first time in a couple of years I've been on that one - and she sounded horrible, lots more clanking than the Legion or the Lehman, really shuddered and shook too, even up on the second deck. The cabin looked in reasonably good repair though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It shuddered and shook when it was NEW, according to all accounts. Nature of the beasts.
-Hank
Compared to its sister ships it seems to be a lot worse... I would have expected all three of the big boats to be about the same, but they're not. Heading toward St. George in particular the propeller shafts sounded extremely loose and badly out of balance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ooo! Ooo! (best Toody impression) Francis! I'll bet that one of the blades hit Jimmy Hoffa! Ooo! Ooo!
Impossible, they don't go to Secaucus.
The Giants stadium goal post gag was merely a diversion. Ol' Jimmy's buried in the trunk of a Lincoln Towne Car that fell off the ferry. :)
She is the lead (oldest) vessel of the class.
The Legion is the one with all the problems. Dead generators, struck by a freighter...
-Hank
This stirs memories of thr "GOLD STAR MOTHER" "MISS NEW YORK" the "VERRAZANO" and one other boat , a smaller one. I got it , the "MARY MURRAY"
The Hoboken ferries had some boats, I remember the deck crew catching the ropes and spinning huge wheels to take up the slack.
That was when commuting was an adventure. They had names like Pheob SNOW, but those I clearly don't remember.
avid
I think one went to Rikers Island. I don't know which one.
avid
Does anyone remember two ferries named after the towns "Dongan Hills" and the "Tompkinsville"? I think they were in the same class as the Mary Murray.
They don' ring my bells.
avid
They were built, along with the Knickerbocker, between 1929 and 1931, and were similar to the original American Legion (1923) except they fixed the snub-nosed hull.
Bi-level boats, the last with the high twin smokestacks, and with wrap-around exterior areas on both ends. The quality of the wood paneling on the second level's interior cabins was pretty amazing.
All four boats were retired when the Kenedy class boats arrived in 1965. Too bad at least one couldn't have been preserved.
No, the Mary Murry and Gold Star Mother were the class that replaced the Tompkinsville, Dongan Hills, and Knickerbocker, IIRC. The Murray is in the Raritan River, visible from the turnpike near interchange 9.
I'd fact check now, but my references are packed at my Mom's house. (didn't move them yet)
-Hank
The Mary Murry, Gold Star Mother and Miss New York were built in 1938 and ran with the other boats for the next 27 years. The Verrazano, Corneilus G. Kolff and Pvt. Joseph F. Merrill arrived in 1953, so for the next 12 years there were 10 boats on the Staten Island Ferry. Naturally, service schedules were a wee bit better under those conditions then they are now...
Which boat is being used as a dock at Weehawken?
YES..and they were beautiful. Among the last ships built in classic steamboat style. Tall stacks, upper deck clerestory, beautiful cabinwork. Off topic but better than politics..still mass transit if maritime..fed rail lines at both ends of the sail.
American Legion: built 1926, first of the class with graceful sponsoned hull [no ribs showing] but design caused wash over the bows;
Dongan Hills-1929; Tompkinsville-1930, Knickerbocker 1931. Same class with the strutted cabins from narrower hull as was conventional for its time. Otherwise all 4 virtually identical.
American Legion held as spare boat from delivery of the Verrazano in 1951 until 1963, sold for scrap. The other 3 replaced by the 3 Kennedy class.1964-65.
The Mary Murray, Miss New York, and Gold Star Mother built 1937, in mild art-deco I guess, modernized around the plan of the previous four. [The female fleet I called them]Forgot the circumstances of their replacement but believe they were gone by early 70's. The Merrell class [1950-51]was replaced by the Newhouse and Barberi.
Thanks for mentioning those 2 ships! They brought back fond memories.
The American Legion had one last hurrah in 1962, when the Verrazano struck a tanker off the Staten Island shore, limped into St. George and then sank in its slip (not a real big drop, mind you, the water only came up to the roadway deck level). The Legion went into regular service for about a year while the Verrazano was under repair, then was sold for scrap.
Does anyone remember two ferries named after the towns "Dongan Hills" and the "Tompkinsville"? I think they were in the same class as the Mary Murray.
There are peak direction express buses that run between Exchange Place/Newport Mall and Hylan Blvd or Richmond ave. No online schedule, a B/O gave me an operator's schedule. I'll post some times when I get home (school computers have T1).
All the AM trips are impractical for railfanning, so I'll list only the PM. All departure times are from Newport Mall, add 5 minutes for Exchange Pl.
144 - Stops at Richmond/Victory, Platinum/Marsh, Richmond/Amboy, Arden/Hylan, Arden/Arthur Kill
4:05, 4:35, 5:00, 5:15, 6:00
Platinum/Marsh is the SI Mall. Richmond/Amboy is Eltingville Station and the only stop the bus and train meet.
122 - Stops at Clove/Victory, Hylan/Steuben, Hylan/Guyon, Amboy/Nelson, Hylan/Richmond
4:20
Basically this is the same as the X1. I assume these buses make other stops than the timepoints, but just in case...
Hylan/Steuben is close to Grasmere and Old Town, Hylan/Guyon is near Oakwood Hts. I recommend you bring a map of SI (bus map is fine) if you use this route, Hylan Blvd parallels the SIR, sometimes close, sometimes far.
Too bad nothing to Perth Amboy or Woodbridge. It sure would be alot easier to get to Woodbridge Center that way.
Too bad the interstate bridges don't have walkways.
There is really no excuse at all for building any bridge anywhere without a walkway (that you can also bike on). Ok, maybe not the bridges that are part of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge/Tunnel. But any auto bridge, and any rail bridge built with public money, should absolutely have a walkway.
I agree. Unfortunately those car-friendly politicians don't agree. After all the influence of big car companies and their money has alot to do with this. The hell with the "will of the people", now all that talks is money.
That reminds me of something stupid I did as a teenagerm in the 1980's:
I lived in Levittown, NY at the time. One day I took my bike on the LIRR (with my cyc-and ride permit) to Penn, biked to the ferry, and went accross to Staten Island. I then preceeded to bike all the way down Hylan Blvd, expecting to get on SIRT for the return trip.
I don't remember what station I tried to board--this was like 13 years ago! But anyway, they wouldn't let me take my bike on the train.
Now at this point, it was like 4 PM in the early spring. Daylight only had a few hours left. I was still closer to the ferry than to the other end, but as a stubborn, consequences-impaired teenager, I pushed on southbound. My plan was to get over the Outerbridge Crossing, then take my bik on NJ Transit back to Penn.
Well, one thing I didn't realize was that the Outerbridge has no walkway/bikeway, and it's WAY too narrow for a bike to travel in a lane with cars. I got maybe an eighth of a mile before the Port Authority police ordered me to turn off. He directed me down an embankment to a deserted street below.
I rode a ways down there, feeling rather nervous about the dead calm, till I came to a hotel. There, I finnaly realized I was a bit in over my head. I called my parents (collect--you bet!) and they drove some fifty miles to pick me up! Looking back on it, I was a lucky kid to have such devoted parents.
It was also lucky that I didn't get over the bridge, since that would have only made my parents drive farther, with yet another toll. As I later found out, NJ Transit dosen't allow bikes either.
:-) Andrew
I once got a flat way on the south side of chicago, in an industrial area. While pumping up, I wrecked the valve, and did not have another tube. Me and my friend walked over to the IC (now metra electric i guess) and waited. We sort of positioned ourselves away from the center of the platform. Sure enough, when the train came, we could walk to a door with no conductors and get on, with bikes. By the time the conductor made it to us, we were halfway back to 53rd. He asked if we were going downtown, we said no, and he let us ride. I never was sure, but I think if we could have been stopped before we got on, we would have been out of luck.
Most transit systems seem to be liberalized towards bikes these days.
SIR allows Bikes, but you have to arrange it ahead of time, non rush hours. They put your bike in a closed car, but now that the crew is down to two and they don't close cars a lot I don't know what you do.
Sneak on quick.
-Hank
GWB has one. (Of course it's not very near to SI.)
It's been a long time since I drove over it, but I seem to remember the Bayonne Bridge having a pedestrian walkway. It may be okay for bicyclists, but not necessarily for pedestrians because on the Staten Island side it empties into a rather seedy industrial area. There are several bus routes that go to the ferry.
The Bayonne end is at the very beginning of that city's street numbering system, which makes it a good mile and a half from HBLR's 34th Street terminal.
I always wished the tunnels had pedestrian paths, but the carbon monoxide would kill you.
You're right about the Bayonne Bridge having a pedestrian path. I walked on it. Got a few hundred feet out onto the bridge and made the mistake of looking down. Turned around.
I remember the area on the SI side being much nicer than you describe.
IF anyone needs the routings ,I have them,,contact me directly on Smokiecat@webtv.net
I believe the SIR is connected to NJ somewhere on the unused Westbound spur. There is a bridge. Check out a Hagstrom NJ street atlas and you will see the connection. The SIR was originally part of the B&O railroad. It's important to note that the unused North-West spur was electrified and then de-electrified. The ideal plan would be a connection across the Verizano bridge to the R line. If you have to tear up a car lane on the bridge, too bad. Trains are more important. Imagine a super tunnel from south ferry, following the Staten Island Ferry route to Staten! I wonder if digging such a vast underwater tunnel is possible.
No direct rail service to SI from NY will ever happen. NYSDOT will make sure of that. They're buying brand new ferries, if any train service were implemented to Bk ot NY ferry ridership would become nonexistant. The one rail link I can see is HBLR from the Bayonne branch to the North Shore line, then to St. George. Fare control would have to be redesigned.
Maybe it makes more sense for transit from SI to go through NJ. It seems like it could potentially be faster and cheaper than going through Brooklyn and for better or worse would get a lot less opposition than a line from Brooklyn. I don't know much about how population is distributed on SI, but looking at the map, it does not seem like asking people to ride SIRT north to St. George then SW towards Howland Hook would go over very well. I guess they'd have to put in a subway somewhere south of there, heading west toward Bayonne.
BTW the map shows a long gap between Clifton and Grasmere stations. Why is this?
BTW the map shows a long gap between Clifton and Grasmere stations. Why is this?
It's the longest gap between two stations on the line.
Why the gap? Because those stations are far apart, longest gap on the line.
-Hank
Arghh. Hank, you're the second person to say the reason the stations are so far apart is because they are the farthest apart. That does not seem to answer the question!!! Why isn't there another station in there? Is it an industrial, or undeveloped area? Or for some other reason is there little demand for transit there??
Clifton is the last stop at the shore facing NY Harbor. The line turns inland (actually, it used to split; but the branch to South Beach is a memory) after Clifton. Once you leave the shore, the island is less densely built in that area. Probably even more so when the line was built.
Another possibility is that the line was still close to the old South Beach line, so maybe the station was on the SB Line.
The area was served better by the long-defunt South Beach branch. The area is somewhat built, but most of the construction is recent.
-Hank
I believe the SIR is connected to NJ somewhere on the unused Westbound spur.
It was, once upon a time... I think the connection was severed in 1982, plus or minus a couple of years. The connection never saw passenger service, however, at least not during the electrified years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Connection was severed when P&G closed Port Ivory sometime after 1989. The line is in the proces of being restored to service. The track has been renewed as far as South Ave, the bridge was rehabbed, and the West Shore branch was also restored. This line will be an important part of both the PA's expansion plans for Howland Hook, and the city's plans to close Frsh Kills. Trash will be transloaded to trains at the dump, and shipped to VA.
-Hank
I'm not sure which piece of the line you are talking about; but, if it is the part from St. G to the Arthur Kill bridge, there are numerous abandonned pax stations along the way.
By "the connection" I was referring to that part of the line over the bridge to New Jersey. I'm well aware of the passenger stations on the line west of St. George - I've explored a couple of them over the years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You mean they ran pax trains back and forth between the bridge and St. G w/o providing any service to NJ? That's really crazy. I guess I always just assumed that the pax service went over the bridge.
Passenger trains ran as far as Arlington Station, which served Proctor and Gamble. There were also several other industries along the line, such as US Gypsum and Bethlehem Steel.
-Hank
Did the B&O ever run long distance passenger trains to the NYC metro area? If so, where did they terminate?
they used the cnj terminal in jersey city. the b&o came up the reading line from philly to bound brook and then to jersey city on the cnj,
Also briefly (1918-1926) they came into Penn Station - this was a USRA directive after our entry into WWI and they continued the practice for a few years, until they decided that Jersey City (and significantly cheaper platform space) was close enough. All service ended in 1958.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks. Interesting that they had their own trackage on SI but used the CNJ terminal in JC instead.
Tony, you may not have heard, but this has gone around several times. Unfortunately, the VZ Bridge cannot handle rail weights, and given the number of people likely to use SIRT, the cost of a tunnel cannot be justified. Heck, SIRT only covers something like 10 percent of its operating costs now, compared with 100 percent for the subway. It's a big island (as big as Brooklyn), and the SIRT is not accessible for most people.
My idea, which many people here don't agree with, is to take advantage of technology that will make buses less offensive -- ie. fuel cells/electric -- and covert the SIRT to a busway, a la the busway in Pittsburg. This would require enough room to allow buses to pull off where the stations are, and allow other "express" buses to go by.
Look at the long gap between trains on the SIRT, even at rush hour. During that whole time, express buses could be rolling up the ROW, instead of crawling up Hylan Boulevard. Buses could then go over their own lane on the VZ bridge, up their own lane on the new Gowanus, and through the counterflow lane on the BBT.
Filling the idea out, the north shore line could also be coverted to a busway. Some buses would run over the VZ, while others would run with local stops to the Ferry, like the SIRT does now. In fact, the entire Staten Island bus map could be altered to take advangate of the busway (and the bus lane on the SIE). Instead of having buses crawl across the whole island stopping at lights, they could travel through neighborhoods, then get up on the busway and crusise right to the ferry, or to Manhattan, without stopping.
Staten Island is about the same size and density as the City of Pittsburg, so I think this is the right mode.
For the umpteenmillionth time, it's impossible to extend the SIR across the VZ for engineering reasons.
-Hank
Yes but they can connect the SIR to the tunnel!!
You can tell where the tunnel is, the cut out is just south of Whitehall, there are two bell mouths. This is the tunnel to Staten Island and the SIR!!!
I couldn't help myself.
No it isn't. This has been previously discussed at length. They were for a possible different route of the Montague tunnel.
-Hank
I see your obvious sarcasm detector is in the shop.
Yah, getting to close to his "BIG DAY"...
Yeah! Today was it! I finally got a cable modem!
-Hank
Even though Cablevision is my Cable provider, they say they are not (on their web site). When I went to the Wiz, they said my cable has not been upgraded to provide cable modem service and it will be at least 3 yrs.
HoHum, I'll stick to work and a T3 with my own parallel zip drive.
You see. I told you that Cablevision (owner of Madison Square Garbage and Nobody Beats Takin' a Whiz) is the essence of EVIL.
Well, I've got AOL-TW 49% owned ('we don't really own it, so that promotion doesn't apply') Staten Island Cable. So far, so good. I got me a router, too.
-Hank
.......for this weekends G.O. will leave WTC tonite at 11:43 PM. Let's hope it's an R32! Sorry I can't join you guys Sunday morning, I'll take a ride as a passenger Saturday nite after the UTC meeting.
Oops! 1:46 too soon!
You mean the first train to be redirected via 63 St
will be the 1143 E WTC on FRIDAY night?
Works for my schedule....guess I'll ride.
Right!
How does this work?
There is no connection from 63rd to 8th Av.
The E changes from the Eighth Ave. line tracks to the Sixth Ave. tracks between Spring Street and West Fourth Street, and runs up Sixth to the 63rd St. connection, skipping its normal stops between 14th St.-Eighth Ave. and Queens Plaza.
What exactly is happening this weekend on 53/63 St? Sorry if this was covered before.
They are doing repair work on the switches near Queens Plaza. This means they will redirect all Queens Blvd. traffic through the 63rd Street connector since it is before Queens Plaza.
Shawn.
**
Correction. Manhattan-bound traffic is running as normal. Only Queens-bound traffic will be rerouted through the 63rd Street connector.
The service advisories posted on the MTA website are kinda confusing.
Shawn.
Proposal for pot ads on trains,
HIGH, HOW ARE YOU
Peace,
ANDEE
corrected URL
Has anyone on this board ever seen an ad for marijuana on a train or bus?
- Lyle Goldman
First forget about cost. We have a blank check.
Could the Els built during the Dual contracts with vacant express tracks be upgraded? Could they have the iron work installed at this late date?
Remember , we're fantasizing here.
What would you do to improve service on the Jamacia Line? How would you go about eliminating the 75ft inhibiting curves.?
What medium would you use on any totally new structures? Steel, reinforced concret, or other? How many and what type of stations would be planned and where?
After we plan this to everyons satisfaction, we start on the Westside freight line from Spuyten Duyvil north and South. Then for those frothing at the mouth, the Rockaway branch . Our goal here is
S P E E D. You may create new technology .
avid
First, forget about cost. We have a blank check.
Could the Els built during the Dual contracts with vacant express tracks be upgraded? Could they have the iron work installed at this late date?
Remember , we're fantasizing here.
What would you do to improve service on the Jamacia Line? How would you go about eliminating the 75ft inhibiting curves.?
What medium would you use on any totally new structures? Steel, reinforced concret, or other? How many and what type of stations would be planned and where?
After we plan this to everyones satisfaction, we start on the Westside freight line, from Spuyten Duyvil north and South. Then for those frothing at the mouth, the Rockaway branch . Our goal here is
S P E E D. You may create new technology .
avid
No reson I can't think of that an express track couldn't be installed on the Jamaica el; as much as I enjoy what nostalgia is left of the stretch between Cypress Hills and Alabama would as soon see a new el built along Jamaica Ave in that area and get rid of those cursed slow curves. You'd probably gain 4 minutes in running time on that alone and make the line an attractive alternative for Jamaica customers at least below midtown.
I think I'd go with the concret structure, similar to the type being installed for the Air Train. T seems to go up rather quickly. i utilizes welded rail for a smooth and quiet ride. From what i've observed at JFK, it's not a bad looking structer and could accomadate three tracks at a dual platform for "express stops". Part of the Charmand nostailga of an El was the Noise, but swiftness is better. AA reroute, continuing along Jamaica Ave. may allow for a junction with the Canarsie Branch and possibly the Fulton Ave portion of the 8th Ave. line. I'm guessing thats what those bellmouths east of the B'way East New York station were for. Rerouts galore!
Remember the Blank Check.
The Bad news is ,where the new portion is put in I'd put in four stations to replace the five taken out. they'd be Alabama,Van Siclen, Cleveland, Norwood and Cresent. Maybe they would only be shifted. But if so, Cresent will be lost.
avid
To answer you and Karl B in one post. Yes cemeteries on one side of Jamaica Ave. YES Nimbys' on only one side of the tracks. OTOH as Karl says Crescent was always the busiest which I'll confirm having lived in that area l969-77. And indeed such relocation would inconvenience a lot of people from the area I lived in. OTOH would make a few other happy.
Years ago a plan was out to 3-track the line andshift from Fulton to Jamaica Ave. sooner but community opposition stopped it.
We could rest assured if such took place it would be a concrete el, if virtually noiseless reason number one. Gasp.imagine an A train to Jamaica. My ultimate would be an E/K train...present E to West 4th..over to Houston then Chrystie connection back where it started via the el. Buyt don't hold my [or anyone else's] breath for any changes!
There is steel girder work at East New York that rises and approaches the Alabama Ave station as if the thought were to have a third track on Fulton St that would be above the five island platforms. It has been there unused for at least sixty years.
I wonder what stopped the original plan, and why it has never been removed. Does it have something to do with the structural integrity of the remaining el?
About ten or twelve years ago an incident/accident occured in the sunnyside yard. A Propane car derailed. All rail, bus and auto traffiic was stopped in the event of an expolsion. No LIRR, NO #7,
no E, no F, no G,no buses.
Pure and total chaos.
Now if , just if the Ta could have sent E traffic as you suggest a jillion people may have had some light at the end of the tunnel instead of cursing the dark.
I shouldn't exaggerate, it was 1/2 jillion people. Just send the E from WTC to WEST 4th st and reverse via Houston and Willy B.
Trouble some, Yes. Imperfect , of course. A contingency plan, a big yes.
avid
I think that the el was originally built on Fulton St because of going through a population center. Fifty years ago Crescent St was the most used station of the five, with Norwood running a close second.
Running on Jamaica instead would be alongside cemetaries almost the entire distance.
Is there really much nostalgia left after the closing of all of the one end entrances, and those damn new corrugated steel buildings built everywhere. They even stuck one between the tracks on the curve from Fulton into Crescent!
Still, the portion between Alabama and Cypress Hills (before the curve) is the only piece of the original Brooklyn L still extant, and the oldest structure in the City. I'd hate to see it go as long as it's not unsafe and can't be fixed..
I'd hate to see it lost too!
I photographed the old Fulton St el stub today at Pitkin and Snediker, as well as the soon to be demolished el section over Snediker, for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
First- from alabama to crecent there could be an upper level of express track above the existing track
second- new three track structure from crecent street to 85th street
third -85th to 111th, new center track
forth -111-121th existing center trackto end before 121st.
Actually the BMT did plan for a third track on today's J Line and the upper level express. However, they ran out of money before final plans were made.
My morning D train pulled into 50th St (6th Av) and the TSS came out(of the tower) to get the call leters. The T/O pointed out to the TSS that he had the snow brake on. TSS didn't care..
I do, why would you have the snow brake on this morning?
In my days as a motorman it was against the rules to use snow brake in the tunnels. Of course..it's unnecessary and creates dust by dragging the brakes. Perhaps he couldn't get it off because of a mechanical defect but worded it wrong?
What is the snow brake?
I believe it's a position on the brake handle when activated creates alot of friction between the braking pad and the wheels that creates alot of heat. The heat is then used to melt the ice and snow around it. It's handy when it's snowing quite hard.
Perhaps on some models or on modified cars it is on the brake valve, zone of the controller or however they do it. When the R44/46 were new all you did was push a button or turn a switch, memory fails me but it was separate..and you'd set up about 8 psi of brake cyl pressure. Also a light on the console came on.
This was a result of the change from cast iron to composition shoes. Cast iron heat up a lot sooner so between stops there was no ice build up. IIRC but won't swear to it...the LIRR M-1's were the first New York area production cars with them [had been trials on some sets of NY city cars previous...even on R1-9's] and with the new shoes trains were running past platforms in snowy weather as the shoes didn't heat up and melt ice/snow. Hence the snow brake feature was put on..the R44/46 came with it. Maybe the M-1's had it from the beginning but I'm relaying the story as I remember it..that they found out the hard way. With iron shoes none of the old equipment had such a feature. I'm wondering if it was retrofitted to the SMEE's after GOH. The redbirds e.g. sound like they have composition shoes now...so I'd think they'd have a snow brake. Anyone know?
All cars today except electric diesel locomotives, most rider cars and the work motors on the current signal dolly use Cobra or Tiger composition brake shoes. The means of clearing the brake shoes of ice is in part by maintaining zero clerance between the wheel treads and the shoe surface, not just by heating the wheels. This is obtained by providing enough Brake Cylinder PSI to overcome the release springs then force the shoes against the wheels, usually 7 to 9 PSI. Any more would constitute a friction brake application. All passenger cars have snow brake except the R36 equipment. On cars with the ME42 valves except the R36, there is an added position in between release and the variable service application zone which falls just short of closing the 5-wire. With the lockout magnet valves not receiving the 5 wire circuit, the 7 to 9 PSI in the straight air pipe can flow through the J-Relay and on to the brake cylinders. On Westcode and Cinestron valves (single handed controllers), the R-Wire is always energized in power positions, therefore the snow brake is controlled by a magnet valve that sort of mimics the old inshot valve. It chokes off the brake cylinders regardless of the positions of the Release Magnet Valve porting and keeps the shoes on the treads. Let the beatings begin.
Guess that was a simple modification to the ME 42 valve. Just don't get a full release. Did you mean running release position..I assume so. Do they still have full release, had to use that to get a pneumatic release in my days. How come the R36 was excepted. Do they still have cast iron shoes? Thanx.
Hi,
Just curious - do the R-32 roll signs have ALL IND/BMT line designations and all destinations that they serve? For example, could the R-32 trains have signs that look something like this...
205 Street
Bronx
Coney Island
Brooklyn
D - 6 Avenue
Brighton Local
just in case the D needed to use an R-32 consist as a backup?
Yes, I own an R-32 signbox with current signs. All current B division routes are on it. Even has W and V
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee,
Would it be a pain in the arse if you listed all the sign readings for the R-32 (I am guessing that it's identical to the R-38 as well). If not, or if you know of a site or if it was posted earlier in the archives, can you let me know what site or a vague idea of maybe when it was posted and I'll look through them while I'm at work that would be greatly appreciated.
Alex =)
Something like this:
JFK Express
Wash Hts/8th Av/Fulton
Concourse/8th Av/Fulton
8th Av/Fulton
May also be one for the 145th-WTC service
Rockaway Shuttle
Queens/8th Av
Queens/6th Av/Culver
Bklyn/Queens Crosstown
Queens/Bway/4th Av
Astoria/Bway/Sea Beach
Astoria/Broadway
63rd St. Shuttle
Bway/West End
<> Astoria/Broadway/West End
West End Shuttle
Broadway/Brighton
Broadway/Brighton
Concourse/6th Av/Brighton
Concourse/6th Av
6th Av/Brighton
Wash Hts/6th Av/West End
Wash Hts/6th Av
6th Av/West End
West End Shuttle
Wash Hts/8th Av
via 6th Av.
6th Avenue Shuttle
Nassau/4th Av.
Myrtle/Nassau/West End
Myrtle/Nassau/4th Av
Myrtle Shuttle
Jamaica/Nassau
<> Jamaica/Nassau/Brighton
14th Street/Canarsie
Franklin Av Shuttle
Not in Service
Special
Shuttle
N & R may be switched
Not sure of exact arrangement of various "B"s
That's pretty impressive, but on the QB lines, replace "Queens" with "Queens Blvd". Also, though I think it's redundant, the G is signed as "Queens Blvd/Crosstown".
Remember also that the N and R once had opposite Queens terminals. They might still have the signs with the old configurations as well.
:-) Andrew
THANKS, Eric
Peace,
ANDEE
You forgot:
(S) 63st Shuttle
(R) Queens Blvd/Broadway
Listen for Announcements
Those are on there (except for "Listen for announcements" which is only on R-44/46 electronic signs, not on any roll signs.)
Scroll completely through some time. Not all signs have it. It's at the very end (not sure which end). It's also on some redbird rollsigns, the older ones with the larger print (and everything on one line for the inside).
[Scroll completely through some time.]
If you are lucky to find an empty car that still has the knobs on the signs. Here is a short list of cars I have found that fit this description.
3480
3481
3559
3758
3759
They are all R32 cars. Check on the E and N lines for them.
The key to my Bowling Ball locker fits perfectly in the scroll slot. The only problem is scrolling requires a lot of wrist action, it's easy to tire out the hands.
Now all we need are the North and South Terminal rolls.
The R32/38 signbox I own has NORTH/SOUTH TERMINAL on it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Could you e-mail me the readings (for both) or post them up here?
I will scroll through them this weekend, if I have the time, and post them here.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm guessing you didn't have the time this weekend, eh?
No, I didn't, some things came up. I haven't forgotten, though. I will try during the week.
Peace,
ANDEE
OK. I'll be waiting...
This is a reminder to SUBWAYSURF about the rollsigns. Here are a couple of things I've seen on some.
South:
Church Avenue
Coney Island
Crescent St(?)
Whitehall St(?)
World Trade Center
2 Avenue
North:
Franklin Av/Fulton St
Jamaica Center
Metropolitan Avenue
The bold type is what the sign was set to.
I'm guessing from the above that the readings are in alphabetical order unlike on the IRT.
Also, what about < N > Astoria/Bway/Sea Beach?
The N-Astoria/Bway/Sea Beach appears on the side route curtain, the bottom one of the three.
What I meant was N-diamond. I've seen it on some of the R32 cars.
I stand corrected.
That would only be on older signs, like the original R-68 signs, from before the W replaced the diamond N
a brown "R"???
R trains used to run on the Nassau Street line during rush hours from Chambers Street to 95th Street.
The interior reading of the F should read as:
(F) Qns Blvd/6 Av/Culver
For the R it should read as:
(R) Qns Blvd/Bway/4 Av
The N exterior should read as ("Astoria" on first line followed by "Bway Sea Beach" on the bottom):
(N) Astoria
Bway Sea Beach
Other than that, everything's good. At least, I don't think there are any more errors to note. Great to have you back by the way.
By the way, Robert, I do have some photos to submit for your gallery of absurd stuff. Also the "64 Drive" signs at the 63 Drive station were finally fixed. :-(
Hmmm... where might one get a box for an R68A or anything else? Please fill in the following too... $_ _ _ . _ _ Thanks!
You sure you don't have one already? Several are missing...
Rollsign boxes sell on EBay for about $200 complete side, $20-100 for one roll (no box), and about $40-80 for R 1-9 rollsigns in boxes (not everything: Route only or destination only).
Got mine for $40. The last time the TM had an auction sale. About 6 years ago. Carrying it home on the 4 was a bitch! Those things are heavy!
Peace,
ANDEE
My IND signbox, complete with signs and mechanisms, weighs in at 100 pounds. It's been propped up against a shelf in the garage for the past 20 years. Someday I hope to set it in a wall opening and wire it up for lighting. The lower destination sign still has its light sockets and wiring intact and functional.
I had to lug my IND bulkhead destination mechanism through rush hour traffic after buying it at Cityana Gallery back in 1978. Lots of fun.
would you be kind enough to post the routes?
He did already, look around...
Refer to this POST
Peace,
ANDEE
I would bet that R32s have already run on just about every B-division line, at one time or another.
:-) Andrew
Yesterday evening after work, around 6:30 or so, I was waiting for a Brown Line train at Quincy/Wells in the Loop. (I usually grab the Red Line subway home from work, but had an errand to run that required me to take the Brown Line to Diversey.) Sure enough, a Brown Line train shows up at Quincy/Wells after a short wait. The problem? It's on the inner loop track and going clockwise around the Loop as opposed to its normal counterclockwise route! At first I just thought it was really an Orange Line train with an incorrect destination sign, but it was only six cars long and the marker lights were the green/red scheme which indicates the Brown Line. And as if that wasn't enough, a few seconds later an Orange Line train shows up on the outer track, going clockwise as opposed to its regular counterclockwise route. In addition, the Orange Line operator announced that the train would be running express, with Roosevelt as the next stop. The inner track seemed to be exceptionally congested, with at least two Purple Line trains waiting behind the backwards Brown Line train, which itself was stuck behind another train further up the track (an Orange Line train, I presume.)
Anybody know of any delays on the L during yesterday's evening rush that would have caused this, and under what circumstances would two different routes go around the Loop in the opposite direction from normal? Since all the Loop stations have side platforms, putting the trains on the wrong track makes it impossible for anybody waiting for that train to catch it without having to hustle over to the other platform by using the crossover or mezzanine, or even going outside the fare-control zone at some stops.
There is no method to their madness, my friends.
-- David
Chicago, IL
At about 5:30 PM I was at Fullerton southbound when I heard on the radio of a gas leak at Quincy/Wells, and with trains being turned back. It turned to be a false alarm. Two Ravenswood(brown line) trains were turned at 14th Street. One was innerlooped. One Midway(orange line) was turned at Adams/Wabash,another was outerlooped. One of my Evanston Express(purple line) leaders run 507 was turned at 14th St. I (run 514) ran normal around the inner loop, but I arrived back at Howard St.(where I am releived for lunch) 28 minutes late.
Thanks for the info. Now that I think about it, I do remember seeing a fire truck with its flashing lights on under the Quincy/Wells stop, with a few firefighters wandering around the adjacent parking garage as if they were looking for something. It all makes sense now...
BTW, Nice to see at least one CTA "insider" here on SubTalk... The NYCTA and MBTA employees such as Train Dude and Boston T Party add a lot to the discussion here about their respective systems, and it's nice to have that same sort of perspective from Chicago.
-- David
Chicago, IL
My pleasure. I don't post on subtalk to often, but I do look at it every couple of days. I understand there might be a subtalk feild trip here in Chicago this summer. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance. I would also like to meet you Dave, I really have esspecially enjoyed your posts. E-mail me off line, I work 514 Tues.-Fri.
How does moving a train from the inner to the outer loop, or vice versa, help with this type of situation????
Also, what was a Ravenswood train doing down on 14th St??
I can't answer the first question (I was sort of wondering that myself, actually), but I can answer the second question:
Last year there was a huge water main break under the Quincy/Wells L stop (that stop must be a magnate for bad luck, it seems) that forced the shutdown of that section of the Loop while officials made sure the water hadn't washed out one of the foundations of the el structure.
Inbound Brown Line trains were diverted onto the inner loop track and head down the Lake and Wabash sides before changing ends at 14th Street, apparently the first location south of the Loop where trains could do so. After changing ends, the trains would head back through the Loop the same way they came, except using the outer loop track.
During the recent gas leak scare, I assume Brown Line trains were preparing to make a similar move. But when it turned out to be a false alarm, the Brown Line train still south of the Loop was diverted onto the Van Buren and Wells sides using the inner loop track.
I assume the Orange Line trains found themselves in a similar situation, except from the opposite direction. I guess the only thing I can't figure out was why the one Orange Line train was turned at Adams/Wabash instead of continuing through the Loop and turned someplace either west of the Wells/Lake junction on the Green Line tracks or north of the junction on the Purple/Brown line tracks. It still would have been messy, but at least the train would have been able to serve at least four more downtown stops.
OR they could have just avoided the Loop L altogether and through-routed the Brown Line trains to Midway via the State Street subway and Orange Line trains to Kimball, and vice-versa... Now THAT would have been interesting. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
(That stop must be a magnate for bad luck, it seems)
Oops, that should have been MAGNET.
An occasional dumb typo doesn't bother me, but a gross mispelling does. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Traffic last night on the downtown Lex local was snagged by a R142 that stalled as it was departing the 51st Street station southbound.
Anyone have any idea what happened? One doesn't expect a brand-new train to break down like that.
Sure, R-142s have a few problems on the road. All trains do.
Does anyone have an UPDATED Listing
Thank you
Steve
Where are they posted???
R142's do not have roll signs.
UUMM..the R142 does not have rollsigns.
Peace,
ANDEE
I posted the rollsign listing.
Andy
I should have said ,,READINGS
Steve
Sure Cummins doesn't make the motor on that train?
All cars, when purchased have quirky problems. I can't think of a contract that hasn't. In fact, it took nearly a decade to get the R-68s to perform the way they are now. Don't be too quick to jump onto the 'R-142 is junk' bandwagon.
Train Dude:
Maybe it will take a decade to get the R-142s running right. If we're lucky they may have them running right much sooner. It does seem to take a little time to get the new equipment in decent enough running order. They're new and there's going to be a few niggling problems.
BMTJeff
so! the redbirds will be around a lot longer !!!!!!
salaam, If the redbirds are around a little longer it will not be because of the R-142s being lemons. The TA had planned to maintain several trainsets for emergency use. It now appears that they will maintain several more trainsets to increase service on the 4, 5 & 6 lines. If you continually get a chubby everytime someone suggests that the R-142s might be problem-prone, the blood will continue to drain from your head and will slow your 'rational' thought processes. Try to keep an open wind. You'll learn more that way. Please do not take offense to the above.
salaam, if the redbirds are around a little longer it will not be because of the R-142s being lemons or even perceived as lemons. The TA had always planned to maintain several trainsets of redbirds for emergency use. It now appears that they will maintain several more trainsets of redbirds to provide increased service on the 4, 5 & 6 lines. If you continually get a chubby everytime someone suggests that the R-142s might be problem-prone or lemons, the blood will continue to drain from your head and will slow your 'rational' thought processes. Try to keep an open mind. You'll learn more that way. Please do not take offense to the above.
Try to keep an open mind.
Are you sure you're talking to Salaam? Because I'm sure you know that to keep an open mind you need a mind to begin with.
Yes, I was talking to salaam. I'm the eternal optimist and think there is hope, even for him. The R-142/R-142A will have their share of problems. So will the R-143 and the R-160 if they are ever built. Anyone riding the LIRR can look at the "A" yard and see C-3s lined up for Kawasaki to repair & modify. So it is with every railcar made. They are not built by Lionel and don't run perfectly, "Out of the box". Perhaps when salaam accepts the inevitable, both in the world of trains and in the world in general, he'll start to think in a more socially acceptable way.
I agree with you that there will never be the "perfect" rail car out of the "box" and ready to roll. They all will have problems from the start but once they are worked out the cars generally work. Even the much maligned R-44s and R-46s worked once they had the bugs worked out of them. The R-142s and the R-142As are having some problems right now but I bet you with time they'll all be taken care of and the cars will run fine. So far the R-142 cars don't seem to be having all the problems that the R-44s and R-46s had since they were smart and they ran the test trains for a number of years so that when it came time to build the cars they would be built and ready to roll with nothing more than some minor to moderate problems.
As for Sallamallah he seems to be mellowing out and is becoming socially more acceptable. I've also noticed that Pork; The Other White Meat is starting to mature though he still has a ways to go.
BMTJeff
I've also noticed that Pork; The Other White Meat is starting to mature though he still has a ways to go.
I've noticed that you are nothing more than an ignorant idiot, and you aren't anywhere near stopping to be one.
And for those who believe that people on Subtalk should treat other Subtalkers as they would in real life, unless BMTJeff is an angry, burly and large individual, I would say the exact same thing. I do not allow ignorant, ageist FOOLS to insult me and get away with it.
I will bet you any sum of money that if you didn't know I was eighteen, you wouldn't bother talking about my maturity. I don't talk about your maturity, but it's not because I know that at (insert your age here) people are supposed to be mature, I just don't do that kind of thing to people. I don't know how to explain you however.
This is an ad-hominem attack, and an inexcusable one at that, but I had to retaliate and I will not apologize.
BTW, I don't appreciate your putting me on your mailing list just because we exchanged ONE e-mail. I've put you on my blocked senders list (and that was before you proved yourself to be a closed-minded, ignorant fool).
Pork:
We are not trying to attack you and I'm not a large burly angry individual. However, many of us on Sub Talk know that you're eighteen years of age and you have made a few mistakes. We all make mistakes at some point in our lives. I know that many people on Sub Talk have been criticizing you from time to time but you have posted articles on Sub Talk that deserved a good deal of criticism. Your negative views upon what should done to Coney Island got quite a few people upset with you and in certain ways the criticism was justified. If you're going to get angry with everything then you shouldn't post messages on Sub Talk. I realize that what I'm saying is off topic but you just can't rip people apart just because you don't like what they say. You're entitled to your views but be prepared to take the heat if many of the people who are on Sub Talk disagree with you and don't call them narrow minded angry people if they reply back to you in a negative manner.
BMTJeff
I happen to like most of Pigs postings and don't appreciate you speking for me.
Peace,
ANDEE
SUBWAYSURF:
Some of Pig's postings have been good but there have been a few that have gotten people upset and unfortunately he can't take some constructive criticism.
BMTJeff
Some of Pig's postings have been good but there have been a few that have gotten people upset and unfortunately he can't take some constructive criticism.
Using my age as a petty insult against me is not constructive criticism.
And posts will get people upset if you don't understand the fact that not everyone will agree with you. That is something you have failed to understand.
I know that many people on Sub Talk have been criticizing you from time to time but you have posted articles on Sub Talk that deserved a good deal of criticism.
I agree with you that my postings deserve a good deal of criticism, but that is their raison d'etre.
You love the agreement posting genre, which I loathe, but I've never criticized or insulted you for posting a message which does nothing more than register your agreement with something.
I, on the other hand, come here for two things: Information and debate. If you haven't already figured out, it is really the debate that keeps me coming. In all but a few situations, I have not resorted to insults and hits below the belt. If you were to examine the threads on Coney Island, you'll find that I responded with nothing but civility in my arguments for or against Coney Island. Things became uncivil when you began to use my age in a dismissive manner.
If you are angered by people who disagree with you, then don't bother coming here. It's clear that you will not destroy the atmosphere of debate here that you detest, so perhaps you should retire to your own BMTJeff's yes-men group.
Your negative views upon what should done to Coney Island got quite a few people upset with you and in certain ways the criticism was justified.
Criticism of my views was justified, but you acted like a simpleton when you decided that instead of presenting FACTS to show that my views on Coney Island are misguided, you instead decided to insult me specifically. We are not politicians, we should not argue with one another like small children and resort to personal insults when one of us doesn't like what the other has to say.
If you're going to get angry with everything then you shouldn't post messages on Sub Talk.
I don't get angry with everything. Most of my messages here don't even have the slightest tinge of anger, and I've been here a lot longer than you have and I'm one of the original people on the board who posted in 1997 when all of the messages ever posted fit on a single page and we had to type our name with each new message.
We all make mistakes at some point in our lives.
By your logic, I'm immature because I've made a few mistakes. If the above is also true, then everybody here is immature.
I realize that what I'm saying is off topic but you just can't rip people apart just because you don't like what they say.
Do as I say and not as I do. You were the one who first resorted to attacking the character and not the idea. Now you're being a hypocrite and saying that I shouldn't rip people apart if I don't like what they say. Maybe YOU should have taken this advice to begin with and we wouldn't be here.
You're entitled to your views but be prepared to take the heat if many of the people who are on Sub Talk disagree with you and don't call them narrow minded angry people if they reply back to you in a negative manner.
You post good advice, too bad you don't follow it first.
When someone goes on and insults me with no legitimate provocation (and I explained the lack of said provocation in prior paragraphs), I have no choice but to put said person in their place.
Pork:
Enough said. I understand your views. I may not necessarily agree with them at times but they are your views. You've said what you needed to say. We both have made mistakes. Let us both stop this and apoligize for what we have both done to each other and get it over with and continue posting messages on Sub Talk no matter what our views are. There will be times when people will not argee with our opinions but that is part of Sub Talk. This happens sometimes and it has gotten blown out of proportion so we both should stop this before it gets worse. I don't think that either you or me want to have what happened back in June with Sub Talk when there were some problems which got out of hand. Lets cool it and get on with it so we should put our differences aside.
BMTJeff
I agree.
It should end here.
I do hope we are having an only a political-ideaological difference here ( which is fine with me ) however some of the rest of the posts i have seen here after this one did leave a lot to be desired !!
& some of the posters also had many challenges & un truths !!
As for the new R-142 LEMONS ( scrapyard junkers ) it seems that having to " keep some redbirds around " does have a lot to say about
how new dosent always mean better !! make sure this new junk proves itself before some of you folks brag & boast first please!!
Actually, salaam, 40-60 redbirds were going to be held ready in case of emergency. This would include a fleet defect declared on the R-142s(this has not happened) or perhaps a computer virus. This has been done before - especially when the R-46 trucks began to crack in the late 70s. It is simply a prudent thing to do.
Now fast foward several months. The MTA decides to also increase service on the 4, 5 & 6 lines. Alas,1,080 cars will not be enough to do it so additional redbirds will be TEMPORARILLY saved from scrapping. Again, this, in to way should lead to the conclusion that there is anything significantly problematiic on the R-142s
Train Dude:
I wonder if you'll see the message on the signs within the R-142 cars say "This program has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down. Contact the program vendor if the problem persists". Or you might get a message that says "Invalid page fault". If you run an Anti-Virus program such as Norton's you might get a message saying "Virus detected".
BMTJeff
I'm sure we all know that a virus can not infect our individual PCs if we never interact with the outside world. While not a PC, the R-142 and R143 systems are processor based. This too can be said of the E-cam or the Side signs on the R-44 and R-46. Each of these systems has E-mroms that are vulnerable because they rely on outside sources to be updated. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that these systems can be corrupted by some malevolent person. If so, I don't know if the 'infection' is transmittable over trainline wires but one must admit that the possibilities are there.
Train Dude:
The only way that the onboard computers on the R-142 and R-143 series subway cars could end up with a virus is if some malevolent person inserts one into the system by inserting a disk with a virus or by programming a virus in to the system so that is why you might want to have an Anti-Virus program for the onboard computers of the R-142 and R-143 subway cars. A computer that isn't connected to the internet can still get a virus if you get a disk from someone that is infected with a virus and you put it into computers' disk drive.
BMTJeff
The R-142 doesn't have a disk drive, it only gets things from outside computers.
Therefore, an AV program on the outside computer should suffice.
I guess if some malevolent person wants to put a virus into the onboard computers of the R-142 and R-143 subway cars he would put the virus into the AV programs on the outside computers.
BMTJeff
The MTA decides to also increase service on the 4, 5 & 6 lines
Are you implying that Lex Ave service can be increased without a 2nd Ave Subway, a new signal system or straightening out Union Square?
I am not implying anything. I am repeating what I believe the media reported several weeks ago. This should come as good news to you since you've been insisting all along that the NYCT has reduced the number of TPH over the past decade or so.
From today's (19 Jan 01) NY Times Metro Briefing:
MANHATTAN: MORE SUBWAY CARS
Hoping to ease the rush-hour crush on the busiest subway
lines, New York City Transit officials voted yesterday to
increase their order for new subway cars by $185 million for
150 additional cars. The increase means that over the next
two years, 1,550 new subway cars will appear on the IRT
lines - the Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 9 - replacing all 1,400 of
the oldest trains. Lawrence G. Reuter, transit president,
noted that the train fleet included about 6,000 cars, so the
expansion was relatively small. But he said he expected some
improvement in the subway system, where ridership has
risen steeply.
Randy Kennedy (NYT)
I guess there goes that extra cushion and the possibility for improved service.
I would also venture to say that this modest fleet increase will probably result in fewer cars available for passenger service. The old fleet was composed of 700 married pairs. If 4% of the cars were unavailable due to repairs or maintenance, then 56 cars would need repair and 112 cars would be out of service. The new cars are 5 car units. Repairs for the same 56 individual cars would result in 280 cars being out of service. This is a net loss of 168 cars.
According to the FTA figures NYCT is currently running 17% spares. This calculation uses the number of cars required for peak service as its base. Translating this to total fleet - 15% spares, 85% peak service. Take an "improvement" that kills 5 cars instead of 2 for each failure, one should expect that the spare level would increase proportionately for the same service level, giving a 37/63 split instead of 15/85. Therefore to provide the same service level for the 1400 redbirds to be replaced, the TA would require approximately 1900 new cars.
0.85 * 1400 = 0.63 x
x = 1888.9
It would appear that the present order is 350 cars short. If the TA merely wishes to maintain existing service levels, with the new fleet, then it must make up the available car shortfall by retaining some redbirds. How many?
0.85 x + (0.63 * 1550) = (0.85 * 1400)
x = 250
[The increase means that over the next
two years, 1,550 new subway cars will appear on the IRT
lines - the Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 9 - replacing all 1,400 of
the oldest trains. ]
I thought the #1 & #9 aren't supposed to get R-142's. Will the side doors line up at South Ferry ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They are replacing 1400 cars with 1550 new ones. However, availability will be significantly reduced because of the linkbars. There will be more R142's available only if the number of unavailable cars - for any reason - is less than 50 or 3% of the fleet. With mandatory inspections every 90 days and each inspection taking 1 day, this means that the 3% threshold has already been exceeded. Thus, the only way for improved availability is for a zero failure rate.
If TA management thinks that this is an improvement, they would probably think nothing of missing the gap fillers by a few feet. I'm sure they will have the automatic announcement say something like "Watch you step getting on and off the train". Of course, the announcement will be made at Cortlandt St because failures in the station announcement system were ignored during the acceptance tests.
OF course they will! Until the next IRT order (around 2005), there will be a few trains left for rush hour only service (think R30). I hope its the R36, those blinking lights are great (I love it when the polaric reverser for the fluorescents isn't working, the tubes turn purple!).
I still enjoy the R-142a, the're my fav IRT car. 142, not so much.
um, from my visual experience, R-142's were being reconfigurated number wise(switching sets and rearranging them)is the reason they are out of service and the 6 line is flooded with R-142A's 6 of them were running on thursday 1/11/01
Switching trainsets might also be a method of troubleshooting and we both don't know it. They might also be trying to find a way to run the R-142s together with the R-142As if need be. They also might be trying to see if they can run them in other than sets of 5.
BMTJeff
They also might be trying to see if they can run them in other than sets of 5.
There's nothing to see, we know they can do 4 or 6 car sets already.
i guess that was a new set? the other sets have been problem free since they came in.
Stations will be on a normal weekday schedule. All gates will be opened at their normal weekday time and all part-time booths will open at their normal time.
This applies to stations- I do not have RDO's plans.
I'd like to ask our fellow SubTalker employees of other transit systems if your system celebrates MLK day (with a personal day or extra pay) since the NYCTA does not.
WMATA, Ride-On, and the other DC transit comapnies operate Saturday schedules with supplemental schedules on some routes. Off peak fares.
DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR
Holiday
January 15, 2001
Most SEPTA service will run on a regular weekday service schedule for Martin Luther King Day on Monday, January 15, including Regional Rail Lines, Market-Frankford Line, Broad Street Subway, Suburban Transit Routes, Light Rail Lines and Trackless Trolley Routes. However, the City Transit Division will run a modified weekday schedule. School-related trips will NOT operate and certain peak hour trip times may vary. Any questions concerning service on January 15th should be directed to SEPTA Travel Information Center at 215-580-7800.
Nothing out here in California does any observance. regular weekday schedules in force Monday. (If you didn't post the question I probably wouldn't have realized it WAS a "holiday".)
The message boards in Los Angeles' Red Line subway are announcing Saturday level service with some additional morning trips Monday, January 15.
I'm not an employee, but RIPTA ran Sunday service yesterday, except the Providence-Newport ferry, which ran on its usual Monday-Friday schedule.
RTO is running a normal Monday schedule. The next RTO holiday is President's Day followed by Memorial Day.
A few days ago someone posted about the sound the AC traction motors on the R142's make. I took a ride on both the R142's and R142A's and I have noticed that only the Kawasaki units make that whining sound. The Bombardier units are relatively silent.
Another thing I noticed is that you can hear these trains coming from pretty far. They seem to make the tracks make more noise that the older models. I'm guessing this is due to their weight. They're roughly 70,000 pounds empty. Does anyone know how much a R62(A) or a Redbird weigh?
Shawn.
I am the person who made that statement about the sounds of R142/R142A. I am very impressed with Bombardier's effort to make its AC motors quiet.
Chaohwa
There is definately a distinctive sound. You can't really hear it inside the car, however, just on the platform.
Once everything is up and running, perhaps the MTA can improve the announcements. I'd like to see someone different with and appropriate accent -- perhaps someone from the neighborhood -- announce each stop. And since it's all automated, so you are not relying on the expertise of the individual conductor, why not announce neighborhood names? Highways have signs that say "Yonkers next four exists." Why not "Windsor Terrace next two stops?"
Because Yonkers is a very well defined city. Windsor Terrace is a vague neighborhood (as are all neighborhoods - I'm not picking on yours alone) with borders subject to change, depending on whose talking. For example, my old Brooklyn home - for years I lived in Bensonhurst. Then one day, it was Midwood. Since then, I have seen identified as Flatbush, Flatlands, E. Flatbush and Gravesend. Mind you, in 38 years, the house never moved, just people's perception of its location.
Maybe we should dissolve New York City, leaving it with only Manhattan, and making the rest into the cities, towns, villages and hamlets it was before.
Why not break up Manhattan, too, while we're at it?
What would that accomplish?
Manhattan is much more one unit than the other boroughs, and it was one unit for a very long time.
Harlem used to be independent, so was Greenwich, but that was before the revolution.
Is it that long? Maybe you're right. However, it's also been quite a while since Kings County became one municipality. Come to think of it, how long was it after Brooklyn swallowed up the other towns in Kings County until NYC "amalgamated" with Brooklyn?
how long was it after Brooklyn swallowed up the other towns in Kings County until NYC "amalgamated" with Brooklyn?
Two years.
Some might view it as poetic justice. Peronally, I think the city has gotten too large to manage.
I would restore NYC to its 1873 setup (with Bronx being part of Westchester County, and the Westchester County Courthouse would be right under the #6 at East Tremont and Westchester Avenues). I don't know what I'd do about the part of Eastchester that became part of the Bronx, since Mount Vernon would divide it in two (didn't exist in 1894), I guess I would make it part of the Town of Westchester.
Then people would be able to petition to make new cities and villages.
There are very few things here that would need to be unified. One thing that would be unified would be the East River Valley Subway Authority, since all the boroughs that have subway service border the East River.
A few other things, such as water supply; but, in general, sounds good to me.
Each of the areas had their own water supply, but there's no reason we should waste the resources we have now, and I don't see Brooklyn reopening the aqueduct beneath the Sunrise Highway to pump water from Long Island (now that there are actually places that need the water there).
The Central Hudson Valley Watershed Authority
It is the same thing here in The Bronx when I moved in, 20 years ago, I moved into Bedford Park. Then about 5 years ago it mysteriously became Norwood. I still call it Bedford Park.
Peace,
ANDEE
You're right ... Norwood is my old digs, bounded by Mosholu Parkway on the south, Webster Avenue to the east, and Gunhill Rd to the north, a triangular block of neighborhood surrounded by park and parklets. That's Norwood. When I lived there and worked for the "ta" I reported to Stillwell for my choochoo. I was one unhappy camper since I worked the D train.
But you ARE in Bedford Park, that area by the Concourse from Kingsbridge to Mosholu ... by St Nick's all the way west to Sedgewick. ...
R26 GE 78180 Even #s 78300 Odd #s
R26 WH 78060 78180
R28 GOH GE 77920 78140
R28 GOH WH 77800 78020
R29 GOH GE 76770 76790
R29 GOH WH 76650 76670
R33 GOH GE 77280 76850
R33 GOH WH 76500 76400
R33S GOH Single car 75310
R36 GE 73530 73100
R36 WH 72910 73080
R62 Odd #s 74900
R62 Even #s w/ Compressor 74540
R62 Even #s w/o Compressor 73380
R62A Even #s 75550
R110A A car 72000
R110A B car 67400
R142 Average weight, empty 70000
R142A Average weight, empty 70000
Well, there you go. All weights are from NYCT Revenue and Non-Revenue Car Drawing Manual except R142/R142A which are from their respective training guides.
OK, silly me. I forgot that tabs don't show up here. In the previous post, the first number is the weight of the even car, the second is that of the odd.
the R-62's and redbirds are around 60,000 pounds (i'm not sure. poor recollection)as far as making alot of noise coming, i heard mostly the 3rd rail shoe rubbing and i new it was it or i heard the hvac from far away. r-142(bombadier) it is quiet but when the hvac is off you can hear an electronic singing and a mediocre wind up during mid speed acceleration.
The nightmare of the LA subway continues. Recall that LA's MTA spent tons of money on fancy new offices, then ran out of money to build the subway. Now CNN is reporting a massive fire at the LA Transit offices. Imagine the chaos if the building burns down, taking all the records and contracts with it.
Too soon for details.
I wonder if the MTA has backup records, like many corporations do?
Reason #327 not to live in Los Angeles. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Why is L.A. so dangerous? California is a pretty state, shame there is so much dirt in L.A.
No need to worry; fire's out. If they don't back up now, they'll probably start real soon!
The fire was confined to a balcony area used by window washers to store equipment. As usual, the media made a lot of hype out of a little bit of smoke.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Today in & out of the rain the los angeles MTA Hdq. TAJ MAHAL luxury suite hotel they built for themselves on the government DOLE ......
Caught on FIRE on the 27th floor ! This was the same building used on one of the star trek " Voyager " T V series episodes etc..
The MTA TAJ MAHAL is located walking distance from the los angeles union station home of the soon to be built pasadena BLUE line the red line subway to nowhere station downstairs metrolink amtrak upstars.
a greyhound taxi amtrak bus thruway connections & a parking lot in front with fees too high to park there !! ( oh well ) at least the MTA strike is over & our scratchitti infested buses are still running !!they were not running last time we rode the train to nyc last fall! ( shooting the worlds best ever subway videos )
the good of this was no one was hurt ( no serious injuries ) & everyone had to stand out in the pouring down rain!! boo hoo !!
Question : why was this piece of JUNK built anyway ?? what a waste!!
( of our tax money ) , shot to hell damn it !!!!!
Ok, why does one of America's smallest subways require a 27 story operations building? And in SoCA where tall buildings are as common as surgery-free faces? Couldn't they have occupied a 27 acre, one story compound?
I agree with you 100% !!!!
also to steal your thunder , there are taller VACANT new nice building (s) in downtown los angeles ( lost-angeles ) where for
" A VERY LOW COST " this los angeles MTA could have moved into
& check this bullshit out THEY WOULD HAVE HAD MORE SPACE etc..
Even today there are these "ready made towering infernos" begging
for occupancy & this is where the LOS ANGELES MTA should have gone !
Instead they build a new LUXURY TAJ MAHAL ( sports stadium ) for\
themselves instead of putting LIMITED taxpayers dollars into the
actual rail transit projects not just some DEEP HOLE underground etc..
Thats the same sick logic that killed our PE system & PCC trolley
syetem thay was working just fine here BEFORE it was ripped out !!!
( i am glad no one got hurt today ) !! the MTA needs to be kicked
out of there & be forced to go elsewhere downtown like they should
have been done in the first place !!
i am sure i made some spelling / wordprocessing error somewhere here!
>>>Instead they build a new LUXURY TAJ MAHAL ( sports stadium ) for...<<<
You mean they run LAMTA from a sports stadium?
ANDEE
that will work!!
AH
Consider the source.
The fire was on the OUTSIDE of the building only, and it was ONLY some window cleaning elevator/hoist equipment. It did do some major cosmetic damage to the marble building exterior panels.
It did do some major cosmetic damage to the marble building exterior panels.
They can't afford to finish their subway, but they can afford a 27-story headquarters building with marble cladding. Not even the CTA would be able to get away with that. Gotta love it...
-- David
Chicago, IL
It did do some major cosmetic damage to the marble building exterior panels.
They can't afford to finish their subway, but they can afford a 27-story headquarters building with marble cladding. Not even the CTA would be able to get away with that. Gotta love it...
It sort of reminds me of something that happened in Connecticut. In the late 1980's, the General Assembly (Legislature) built a huge, palatial office building for itself near the Capitol. It was built according to a spare-no-expense policy and immediately became nicknamed the "Marble Palace." But hey, the state's economy was in a dizzying bubble, er, boom at the time, and money grew on trees. People were too busy earning and spending money to complain.
Within a year or two of the Marble Palace's completion, the state's economy rolled over and died, ushering in the bleak, double-digit-unemployment years of the Great Recession. Far from being a source of pride for the state government, the building became a huge embarassment.
I suppose the LA Fire Department had to strip-search the window cleaners.
right! thats how they do like when they the republican & demoncratic conventions we both paid for in philly/La. Ca. etc..
Man the pork was thrown around big time remember? & why did we have to pay MILLIONS so they could have thier silly little conventions AT OUR EXPENSE!
( just like the MTA TAJ MAHAL here in lost angeles )
@ let them pay for this stuff out of the rich folks pocket & leave the poor little workers alone!!
Let these rich CO-OPERATE WELFARE types come out of thier pockets to pay for thier own PORK !!!
Here's the link to the LA Times article on the fire. They indicate that it was triggered by outside lighting on the balcony, no mention of the window washer's equipment as CNN had indicated (although CNN did indicate it was electrical in origin). Minor water damage, no smoke damage to the interior.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NY1 reports that there is, at present, NO SERVICE ON 1/2/3/9 between 42nd and chambers, both directions, due to a fire in an electrical closet.
Peace,
ANDEE
The 6th ave lines seemed screwed up today. Had a packed D going both ways from 34th to Grand, and had to wait awhile both times.
As I left the station, there was another train right behind the D.
Also on the Queens bound F we had to wait about 8 minutes in the tunnel, just after rejoining the local lines. There was a train stuck ahead of us too. Maybe there was some problem at Roosevelt?
This was around 4:15pm.
That fire was at Houston Street. I was working the No.1 Line today and got lucky and only went as far as 137 Street then got turned back to the Bronx. Today was also the first time I had to Discharge a train.
No.1 trains where turned at 137 Street or Times Square and no No.9 Service.
No.2 Trains where sent down the Lexington Ave Line
No.3 trains where turned at 96 St or Times Sq and Uptown No.3 trains where turned back at Chambers St and Atlantic Ave.
It started around 1:30PM and All service resumed around 4:30PM.
Strange, I never heard anything on 880 about the fire. Perhaps that could explain the unusual extra load on the IND.
Did anything run off the Lex to South Ferry?
A brief story in Saturday's Times
looks like No. 6 Pelham Express's post was plagiarized, but the info is attributed to Al O'Leary.
Thanks!
Peace,
ANDEE
Haven't seen anything on it at the NY1 website. And 880 WCBS top story was the police protection of Judith Nathan.
Pretty sad times when major transit disruptions aren't even a top story. Radio should be accountable to the people, in fact there should be a publicly owned news station. Ooops, there I go again!
I've learned that NY1 probably won't put something like this on their web site. If they do they'll take their sweet time doing it. They did a good job handling it as "Breaking News" though.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yep, I was stuck in Bklyn for a hour trying to get to the Bx. The 3 train that I was on turned back at Wall St.
Train#1990Mike
NYC subway cars have a tall arched roof that makes them them taller than cars in other cities. Does the design make the cars look taller, or are NYC cars really taller compared to other systems?
Virtually all NYCT cars are 12' to 12' 1 1/2" from the railhead. I don't know how that compares to any other system.
That's about the same as CTA railcars as well. CTA cars do seem to have considerably more interior headroom than NYCTA cars, however, probably because of the fact that all A/C components are mounted underneath the car instead of above the ceiling.
For other CTA dimensions, I found a document that I had made a copy of at the library, CTA's design specifications as of 1963. Judging by the CTA cars put in service since then, I doubt the specifications have changed much:
Dimensions and Design Considerations:
Length of car on centerline over anticlimbers: 48'-0"
Length of two-car unit over drawbar faces: 96'-0"
Distance center to center of trucks: 33'-8"
Truck wheel base (maximum): 6'-6"
Width of car over side sheathing at belt rail (maximum): 9'-4"
Width of car body at top of floor (maximum): 8'-8"
Width of car at corner posts (maximum): 8'-8"
Height of light car from top of rail, not to exceed: 12'-0"
Heiht of car floor from top of rail at side door opening, light car: 3'-9 5/8"
Height of center line of coupler face from top of rail, light car: 3'-3 3/8"
Maximum number of cars per train: 10 [Interesting... I wonder how many CTA stations could handle a 10-car train. *drooling*]
Curve Limitations:
Radius of shortest lateral curve: 85'-0" [compare to about 700' on MARTA, 350' on BART, and 600' on Metro]
Radius of shortest vertical curve: "Cars shall negotiate vertical curves where the horizontal center line of the coupler head tilts either 4 degrees above or below the horizontal center line of the coupled heads on level track. Cars shall also operate seperately up a 10 percent grade ramp, 8'-7 1/2" long, onto a transfer table where one truck in on the level and the other is on the ramp."
Weights:
Light weight, without air conditioning (maximum): 45,000 lbs.
Passenger weight: 22,500 lbs.
Loaded weight: 67,5000 lbs.
Metra's bilevel coaches are about 15'-10" above the railhead.
The Rohr cars of the Washington Metro are 10'-10" above the railhead; I assume the Breda cars are about the same. I'd also guess that MARTA and BART cars are within a similar range. No idea about any other systems.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Rohr, Breda, and rumor has it the new CAF cars are the exact same dimensions.
Hope to catch a CAF in my travels today.
Body dimensions almost identical to the old 4000's. Except for the wider, curved out side. Probably a L standard frozen by time for the curves and clearances. Then again the North Shore managed to get 55"9" cars around those curves.
That brings up a question that's been burning on my mind for a while now: What is the absolute maximum length a CTA car can be without making extensive modifications to the physical infrastructure of the system?
In my current "dream scheme" for Chicago, I envision using 150' long articulated cars, made up of three 50' segments. This would be on the Local Division, made up mostly of the existing L lines, with local stops in the city.
The Metro Division would be an entirely new animal in itself, using 75' married pairs similar to MARTA or Washington Metro, and it would extend further out into the suburbs and become express in the city, with free connections to the Local Division trains at certain major stations.
Local and Metro division trains would be as mechanically identical as possible, and an articulated Local Division unit would be the same length as a married pair of Metro Division cars. I have a pretty good idea of some specific routes and stations I'd use, but haven't gotten around to actually planning the whole thing out just yet.
The Regional Division would be the commuter rail system, similar to current Metra operations except it would be fully electrified and run express in areas served by the Metro or Local divisions. All three divisions would have an integrated fare structure, with fare zones kicking in beyond the reach of the Local Division.
Make no little plans!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sounds like a deal. But one disagreement. Why bother with an artic design..if you need two types of cars anyway might as well stick to the present setup for the local division. The artic 5000's never were much of a success. [???]
A division equipment is a few inches lower, 11'10" I think.
That makes a big difference on the pre-dual contracts IRT
lines where the vertical clearance envelope is very tight.
Right as usual. I tend to forget the A division but for the record
R-33 is 11' 10 3/8"
R-110A is 11' 10 5/8".
Using this sites great library of information and photos, I took a tour of WAMTA amd MARTA and found their rolling stock pleasing to the eye. Judgeing from the photos only the seating looked comfortable too.
I beleive these will be and ideal proto type for replacing the LIRR M-1s when the Hempstead Loop and the Rockaway Loops are captured and subgagated tooo the Will of the RUDY. Less is More.
avid
P.S. Please checkout the sites bwfore commenting.
a.
Please e-mail oren@orenstransitpage.com tonight (need e-mail in my box by 8:30 AM tomorrow morning) if you think you are going! If your attendance is dependant on the 5000 series cars, I imagine they will be running, if you don't mind waiting in the cold for them (or wait at an underground station, any green line station between Petworth and Congress Heights).
Well, I did make the trek down to the Branch Ave. Station around noon today. I walked from my apartment one and a half blocks to the Ballston station and took the Orange Line to L'Enfant Plaza. The Green line pulled in right away, but to my dismay, it was a 3000 series Breda and not the new CAF trains. It was packed with people riding down to the new stations. I arrived at Branch Ave to find a million people milling around the platform and the mezzanine levels and went outside to see a big closed in structure where all the dignitaries were yacking. I saw the Gov. of Md. and all his buddies on the stage. I managed to get one of the last pennants they were handing out advertising the opening of the Green Line stations.
The ride from Congress Heights to Branch Ave. is pretty nice, although there isn't much to see as it runs next to the Suitland Parkway. We were held up at Anacostia Station for a few minutes becauase they were having track problems and were single tracking to the next station, Congress Heights. Once we finally moved, everything ran smoothly. THe only thing I noticed is that when the trains arrive at Branch Ave., some were stopping short and had to move up two car lenghts. I stuck around to see several trains come and go, but no CAF's. Not sure if they are holding them until the politicians were done blabbering or what. I saw two trains way down past the station, but they all look the same from a distance, so there was no way for me to tell if they were the new ones or not.
Maybe someone else had better luck? All in all, it was a nice day for a ride. At least I snagged a souvenier.
I hear the R142s are fast. I was on one on the 2 express last week. It was going so fast that the T/O didn't wanna tell me how fast he was going. Also I hear that the R142s on the 2 do not make the takeoff sound when they leave the station. I got off at Park place and it made the sound when leaving, and this was a 2!
The R-142s have excellent speed. What the other posters meant is that the take off sound cannot be heard from within the train unless its absolutely quiet and a window or storm door is open. The three pitched sound of the 142 was the very first thing that intrigued me when I saw them testing on the Dyre a year ago. When the Air Conditioning is on, its so loud even people on the platform can not hear the take-off sound.
Carl Perelman reported in Railpace Hot News that a NS engineer was killed by another train while he was on the ground inspecting his locomotives for flat wheels. 2:45 AM Friday, South Fork, PA. Mr. Perelman got the story from Conrail Technical Society E-mail Update.
Railpace’s Hot News reports that Juniata Terminal bought the two ex Conrail E-8’s from CSX, joining the one he previously bought from NS and restored.
After school today I scanned one of the 63st handouts I've collected over the week.
Front
Back
EFR reroute
Some nice scans. I can't get my HP ScanJet 4100C to look like that. I can manage to get it straight but not with such nice full colors. My scanner is too picks up the little details and I get too many details and I can even see the texture of the paper.
The school spent about $500 on their scanner, it'd better be good. It can scan at up to 1600 DPI should I choose, and do large posters as well. What you saw is 200 DPI, after I halved the picture size with Photoshop.
Does anyone have the EXACT Routing,,i know it was posted here,,at one time
Thanks
Steve
Exactly how could one visit these two malls using NJ Transit?
Which mall is better? I also hear NJ actually has some Chinese supermarkets and some chinese bookstores, something we don't even have on LI.
Quite frankly, you can't.
There is no railrod stop near either mall. Bus service is not like it is in NYC. There are a couple of bus lines (don't ask me what they are) but I think they only run once every half hour or so.
You have to understand that these areas are geared for people wih cars. Public transportaion here is an after thought.
As for which mall is better? Woodbridge is larger. Aside from the different anchor stores, you will find the same stores in either mall.
Can't you take an NJT train to a station (like Metropark) and then get a bus to the mall?
If they run half hourly, I'm used to that (many LI Bus routes don't even run that often).
WOODBRIDGE CENTER:
1. Take Northeast Corridor Line to Metropark Station, then get the #62 bus to the mall.
OR
2. Northeast Corridor to New Brunswick station, then M10 or M15 bus.
MENLO PARK:
Northeast Corridor to New Brunswick, then M10 bus. Use M10 to travel between Menlo Park and Woodbridge Center.
ALSO
Check out the following malls:
Bridgewater Commons - NJT #114 bus from PABT
Jersey Gardens - NJT #111 bus from PABT
Palisades Center - Red & Tan bus #20 from PABT
---------
Check NJ Transit's website for bus and train schedules for the 62, M10, M15, 114, etc. - www.njtransit.com
Red and Tan/Rockland Coaches at www.redandtanlines.com for #20 bus schedule.
Have fun!
For Menlo Park Mall: Take Northeast Corridor to MetroPark. Take the number 5 loop bus to the mall. Runs during AM and PM rush periods.
For Woodbridge mall, take the number 62 bus (any day except Sunday) to the mall.
I used to live within walking distance of the Menlo Park Mall -- but 11 years ago. There was a bus which ran half-hourly from the Metuchen NJT station. I thought it was the M10, but that was mentioned in an earlier post as being from New Brunswick.
I'll see if I can find out any other info on-line.
CG
the M10 does run from Metuchen- that too is an option for Menlo Park Mall
To get to Woodbridge Mall, via NJ Transit, you could take the North Jersey Coast Line to Perth Amboy, then take a bus, or take the bus from Newark Penn Station ( not Broad Street), but that route is too long. I am not familiar with Menlo Park.
Here is a summary of the more interesting stuff:
Fit Bergen st interlocking with SSI signals repair interlocking damage caused by fire and transfer control to Jay st tower (something like that).
Replace Union sq gapfillers.
ADA acessibility for 179st.
Read all about it...
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/eye-nyct.htm
Of course, this doesn't mean it will actually happen, but there's hope...
I think we're going to put a bid in for A35833 which will consist of a Windows ME equipped machine running NXSYS and "the clapper" to replace the punch boxes along with car jacks and cranks to operate the switches. Maybe we'll throw in a motor or two to turn them.
Actually, looks like they may well be planning to put Bergen IL back into operation - I suppose they've learned their lesson with the bridge being out. Might be hope after all.
Narf!
ADA at 179th is great (so long as they don't block the layup tracks. I don't want to see a Main St-Flushing style upgrade...
So now this weekend we riders get to take a test ride through the new 63rd street connection, since there is some construction work to be done. Is this part of a plan to gradually ease us into the proposed changes in the system? This will reveal itself as the days pass.
I remember watching the movie King of N.Y. dated back from 1989, starring Chris Walken @ the end of the film their were GOH R33 Redbirds car# 9150-9151,& 9152-9153 showing them @ 42 St Station on the Shuttle including the interiors of 9151,9152,9153. Were R33 Redbirds running on the 42 St Shuttle back in the late 1980's?
Not unless the 4 car set was on Track 3 of the shuttle. There was one exception in the 80s where an R-26/28 was running in revenue service on the shuttle, but married pairs are rare to the best of my knowledge. 1989 saw single Kawasaki R-62s (should have been 1531-40?) units on the shuttle before linking began.
9152 and 53 are no more. They were lost in a derailment 3 years ago.
-Stef
i woke up this morning with a load of energy and decided that this would be the day that i was going to ride the whole system... i dressed, packed a couple of pounds of ground beef and chicken, and grabbed my gas barbeque and headed to the sheepshead bay station... as i had not planned to do this, i asked the station agent for the jan 2001 edition of "the map" and asked him to circle the stations that had bathing facilities, as i realized that i had left the house without taking a shower... i went up on the platform, and spent a couple of hours studying the map and trying to figure out my first move... finally i decided to get on a southbound q and ride it to brighton beach, and at least cover that end of the line ... when i got to brighton, i started feeling hungry, so i set up the barbeque and threw a couple of pieces of chicken and some kishka on the grill... as the meat was cooking several people came over and asked how much i was charging... fortunately i had plenty of provisions, so i cooked up a about a dozen pieces of chicken and sold about 5 hot knishes,10 ice cold orange drinks and 5 good humor ice cream pops that i had in the food locker... all in all, i pocketed about $25, which was not bad for about an hour's work... i cleaned off the grill and got on an arriving d train and returned to sheepshead bay, where i ended my first attempt to ride the system...
Rats, next time let me know I would love to try some of your kishka. Sorry I missed it.
Peace,
ANDEE
I usually take the 7:56 Q Train out of Brighton Beach to get to school. This C/R doesn't keep quiet. This guy makes the most useless announcements. Such as...
At 7 Avenue
-----------
This is 7 Avenue
Next stop is Atlantic Avenue
Please use all the doors along the train line
Stand clear of the doors
Next stop is Atlantic
Between 7 Avenue and Atlantic Avenue
------------------------------------
This is a Manhattan-bound Q Train
Next stop is Atlantic Avenue
Transfer to the 2,3,4,5,B,M,N,R on the upper level and to the D Train on this platform
Ladies and gentelmen for safety reasons, please stand away from the end doors of each subway car.
Please use the hand rails and grab poles.
This is Atlantic Avenue.
Please excercise caution and watch out for wet, icy, slipery conditions.
Please remember to take all your packages, baggage and and personal belongings.
This is Atlantic Avenue. Please make room for your fellow passengers.
Now, imagine this between every station from Brighton Beach to DeKalb Avenue.
Sounds like a new, consciencous conductor. The announcements may be a bit more than is called for but they seem to be done in the spirit of good communication. I think you might try tollerance - or ear plugs.
...or find a car with a broken PA system.
Peace,
ANDEE
"The announcements may be a bit more than is called for. . ."
What announcements are the C/R required to make???
I do not recall the precise text of the required announcement but not to long ago, the TA was roundly criticized for requiring that c/Rs drop all unnecessary chatter from their PA announcements to speed up train service. However, that was, I believe, only pertaining to 'in station' announcements. I do not think that between station announcements were specificly addressed. Having said that, I find the between station announcements, if done clearly, are very much appreciated by customers not familiar with the subway system or the city - for that matter.
What the news made a big deal of was the mentioning of the "stand clear of the closing doors please", with the conductors not to say please or something like that. The American's with disabilities act mandates that connections be addressed where possible. It is alot clearer to hear them with the train stopped, rather then when it is moving.
Now that I think about it, the conductor on that F train I took from Roosevelt Ave. to 14th St. last October never included "please" in his "stand clear and watch the closing doors" spiel. His announcements were very clear and concise, though.
Harry, we loved ya, pal!
He was a Broadway local institution. I'd cut school just to ride his trains.
OH PLEASE don't bring up the PLEASE not Say Please while dwelling in the the station, please.
C/R were to say "Stand clear of the closing doors" Instead of "Stand Clear of the closing doors, Please" to speed up service.
We had many lenghty threads on that one. Even someone doing the math on the A running local and how much time is saved by not saying PLEASE at each station.
Oh PPPPLLLLEAAAASSSEEEE!!
I may get killed on this one, but I feel a conductor saying please is unnecessary. "Please" sounds like begging, especially when it's 2 crew-men vs. 1,000+ people. I want the conductor to be in charge. When he/she says "Stand Clear of the Closing Doors", it should be taken as and order to the passengers that the doors are closing, that it's time for this train to leave this station for the good of the service so that we can get this train down the road and the next train into this station in order to have evenly spaced intervals. How many times have people held my doors at Parsons E and Supthin. Now I'm late and that F which I should be ahead of at Continental, got in front of me because I'm late.
I always preferred the PATH announcement:
Hoboken train, hoboken train, watch the doors.
Because if your watching the doors, you're not in the way of them!
Not to mention having to explain to the supervisor at the far end why your train was "tardy" ... like it was YOU who decided to make it lay down. There ARE times when train crews should be issued sidearms. :)
For the efficiency experts upstairs, I wonder how many road seconds could be saved by not ringing the chimes and just closing up without warning and let the front end wind it up as soon as indication appears. I guess y'all see why I didn't stay on the railroad for long.
But Darwin is very much alive and well and the train ALWAYS wins. And every now and then we've all fantasized about mixing the two.
>>>Not to mention having to explain to the supervisor at the far end why your train was "tardy" ...<<<
"Yes Dispatcher, 1428 Romeo 95 delayed at Canal Street waiting for Egg Foo Young order to be completed. Also gangs at Queensbridge. Could not verify if it was Bloods or Crips sir".
Nope, they guy is pretty old. I've seen him when I got off my train before. He has a beard and looks like Santa in disguise.
One some of my morning trips on the CTA Red Line, I sometimes get an operator who seems to have a sick fascination with the train's automated announcement system, so he pushes whatever button to repeat each announcement several times over. Those announcements are annoying enough to begin with, especially on one of the many cars where the PA volume is loud enough to wake the dead. Imagine listening to these from a cheery Midwestern radio-announcer voice at about two thousand decibels at 7:15 on a Monday morning:
This is Berwyn
This is Berwyn
This is Berwyn
[ding-dong] Doors closing
[ding-dong] Doors closing
[ding-dong] Doors closing
[ding-dong] Doors closing
Argyle is next. Doors open on the left at Argyle... Smoking, littering and playing of radios or other loud devices is prohibited.
Argyle is next. Doors open on the left at Argyle... Smoking, littering and playing of radios or other loud devices is prohibited.
This is Argyle
This is Argyle
This is Argyle
[ding-dong] Doors closing
[ding-dong] Doors closing
[ding-dong] Doors closing
[ding-dong] Doors closing
Lawrence is next. Doors open on the left at Lawrence... Please familiarize yourself with the train communication and evacuation procedures posted in each car.
Lawrence is next. Doors open on the left at Lawrence... Please familiarize yourself with the train communication and evacuation procedures posted in each car.
This is Lawrence
This is Lawrence
This is Lawrence.............
You get the idea. I've ony gone two stops and I'm already starting to wish the train would plunge off the el and put me out of my misery. ARRRGH!
-- David
Chicago, IL
I take it your city prohibits guns on the train as well.
That's another annoyance about the R142s; when passengers hold the doors, it keeps repeating "Stand clear of the closing doors, please" in the same voice. At least when a C/R does it, each time is more angry and forceful :).
The repetition supposed to make you so annoyed you break the appendage of the person that is blocking the door so you can get on with your trip. Anyway, the C/R keeps hitting the button over and over, it's not automatic.
That actually may be a good thing! This way the passengers already on the train can be annoyed at the door holder!
Back in the days when CTA still had conductors, there was a fellow on what would have been the northern portion of the Red Line who gave a running account of notable places at each station, not to mention alternate names ("They call this (fill in the blank)"). He sounded like a radio DJ.
ROTFLAMO!!!! You little description just put me on the floor. I was able to picture exactly what you go through because I always have a blast with automatic anouncement machines. I have always gotten a little punchy with things like scoreboards and those little things on keychains ("Shut up-shut up, kiss my butt, go to hell-go to hell") because I find doing that sort of thing incredibly amusing. Of cource if I'm not the one controling the anouncements its the most annoying thing ever. How versitle are those automated anouncements. Are there one that yell at idiot passengers ("Yo, jackass...")? Would it be possible for a t/o to record his own anouncements and load them into the system?
This sounds more like a technical failure than some guy pressing a button, esp if it repeats itself 3 times for the station announcements, twice for the "no smoking no radio" thing and 4 times for the doors closing. Still I agree it should have been sorted.
I've been on the el a few times, not heard this yet.
I think the London Underground "Mind the Gap" is more irritating, because the sound plays continuously whilst the doors are open on some classes of EMU's
Lexcie
Hey, the Mind the Gap tape loop rocks. I only heard it once and I have ever since minded gaps.
>>>Hey, the Mind the Gap tape loop rocks. I only heard it once and I have ever since minded gaps. <<<
I would imagine that, you might think differently if you had to listen to it more than once, every day. Over and over and over and over and over.....
Peace,
ANDEE
Good point. If only 1 30 second dose got me minding gaps for at least 6 years, imagine what prolonged exposure would do.
Another "Gabby Gus", as I call them. These conductors should be sentenced to listening to their own annoucements in a locked room for a period of not less than 15 years.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wet, icy, and slippery conditions at ATLANTIC AVENUE? I've been there once, that station is UNDERGROUND.
Here in DC, some operators are very annoying. One says "HAVE A GREAT DAY!" at every stop, another's voice drives me crazy after about 5 or 10 minutes. At least the former is a nice guy who is willing to talk if he is tailgating another train, but I haven't even heard his train for over a year.
Has it ever occurred to you that people who board a train above ground bring whatever ice, snow, etc. on them into the train, and then by necessity the floors get wet?
The conductor could be a little more efficient about announcements, but he's doing his job. Railfans know every stop from memory, but a commuter with other issues on his/her mind may miss one announcement and then wish it were repeated.
I don't mean to be rude, but maybe R-68 is the one who needs to quit whining about a non-problem.
Not to 'nit-pick' but it is R-68A. The R-68s get enough bad raps on subtalk.
Do announcements about using all doors, using handrails, and watching out for wet, slippery, icy conditions really need to be made all stops? I'm pretty sure most people would already know. But taking that train 5 times a week and hearing for 8 stops is annnoying to me and other people on the train. Everyone in my car start sucking their teeth as soon as that guy goes on. That's listening to that guy say the same exact stuff 40 times a week.
At every stop, unless crowds demand it, it is not necessary to do the doors and definately not the ice.
How do you think his motorman feels after listening to this all day long for 3 or 4 trips per day and 5 days per week if both have weekends off?
Probably the same as Oscar Madison when he said, "Murray, I'll give you $200 for your gun." 1968 dollars, mind you.
Oh yeah he says that too...
"Have a great day ahead of you"
yes, at every stop.
That's like twisting the knife. A little something to make you go "Rrrrrrr!". However he is telling the truth. You day will get better simply by not having to listen to him.
Be appreciative that he's doing his job, and that people who aren't experts on subway travel get a chance to hear announcements they may have missed the first time because they've got their own troubles to think about - and quit whining.
I believe his job is to announce that the doors are closing, the current and next stop and the transfers like most do. Slippery floors, hold the handrails, who doesn't know that?
How nice... a conductor who actually does their job! I wish that they would all make the proper announcements.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think it's a little overboard. What do you think a C/R should be announcing... definately not all that.
hwy man, if you dont like my announcements, then dont take my train.....
I feel like sleeping for 6 minutes more in the morning and I don't feel like being late for school.
i was joking...anyway school isnt that important that you have to be there on time.
Well, latenesses will effect my grade. If it's excessive, it's -5 on the final grade.
what do you have that period?
Español.
ha...sucks for you
This would be my delivery or something close to it:
Atlantic Avenue, doors open on the left side.
Transfer here for the "B" "D" "M" "N" "R", #2 #3 #4 #5
and connection for the Long Island Rail Road
"Q" Express to Brighton Beach, stand clear of the doors please
Next Stop 7th Avenue
Doors will open on the right side at 7th Avenue
AND as far as the announcement advising people to stay away from the end doors, they're probably been ordered to do that on the "Q" line since that accident last month where the child fell out of the train.
wayne
I don't believe other C/Rs announce it as I have been on other Q Trains heading home.
Speaking of R68s, whatever happened to the "chatterbox" train that formerly ran on the Q before the equipment swap? Condcutors had a choice of male or female announcements and they were always wrong.
The units are still operable. The entire train is assigned to the Coney island fleet.
It wasn't a chatterbox train, it was one car. The yardmaster at CIYD was instructed to keep that car in the middle of the train at the conductors' operating position.
You know this is a pretty stupid post but of course let me add my $.02. On the Path there is a C/R that talks alot, but I have talked to him and he is seriously a genuinly nice guy. Me and a group of friends went to the city on his birthday and I asked him to say, "Happy Birthday Frank" and he did it over the PA, how many C/R would do that? Besides yesterday on the train he said, "Lets go Giants" on the PA. Atleast he has personality and has tone in his voice not monitone like some other people. On the way back the C/R was bad I will say he said, "No eating, drinking, smoking on Path, No Changing cars while train is in motion," he even said, "there are emergency breaks in all cars,"plus more, now come on getting a little carried away.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" I don't recall anyone calling me that while I was sleeping on the PATH
It could be worse. on the N there's a character who's voice is waaaaaay too nasal, who insists on mumbling through the announcements and trailing off at the end so it's more of a half-announcement... good intentions, bad application...
On the flip side, there's another character who seems to have a load of fun doing his job on the N, exaggerating words (ex: "ahhhvvvvenue" , which is his favorite) and occasionally tossing in an odd comment (Ex: "this is 5th ahhhhvvvvvenue, central park south. the exit is located at the rear of the train, but you may walk to the front to view the entire platform"). i get a kick outta him...
-Joe
You haven't heard announcements until you ride a Metra Milwaukee West train coming into Chicago Union Station in the morning rush. There's a daily spiel about:
*not crossing the tracks at Union Station because it's not only dangerous but can be punished by a fine up to $500;
*if you are riding downtown on a one way ticket, remember to buy a return ticket at the station counter to avoid a $1 surcharge for tickets bought on trains leaving Union Station; and
*remember not to leave your personal belongings on the train.
This is supplemented in the first and last few days of the month by reminders to buy monthly passes, including a lengthy reminder that they can be pruchased by mail or through the Internet as well as at the Union Station counter. And those are the OFFICIAL announcements. There's also the wannabe-DJ conductor who commented on the election dispute while it was ongoing, and who reminded us all through December that we were going to be paying one cent more for regular stamps after January 1st, but that the cost of post cards wasn't rising. Ugh!
December that we were going to be paying one cent more for regular stamps after January 1st, but that the cost of post cards wasn't rising. Ugh!
LOL, if I was on that train I'd be on the floor laughing. I'm always a sucker for non sequiter remarks. I'd always be waiting for the c/r to out do himself with another random remark. Has he asked you to help control the pet population and have your pets spayd of nutered?
Sorry that is not the worst C/R I've heard on the Quincy.
I had the guy who would give you connections that you had to take a train for that wasn't at the station.
For example he would make the normal Atlantic Ave annoucment then tell pax to stay on the train for M,N,R to change at Dekalb.
At Broadway/Laffette he would explain how to take the downtown 6 train to transfer to 4/5.
At West 4th he would explain how to take the F train to get the L train.
At 34th Street, well don't ask but he covered everything including how to walk to Penn and what streets to cross.
At 42nd in addition to the normal transfers we learned how to take the shuttle to get the 4/5/6 and that Grand Central Station is a post office.
At 50th St we learned not only last chance for the F and Q but we could take the F to get the G.
Need I go on, now that GUY never shut up!! You needed a map to follow along.
Oh god! I had that guy a year ago on the Q Line.
I am actually reminded of a lift we have in the office building in which I work - and this company happens to be a commuter railroad...
Our lift goes:
Doors closing
Lift going up
First floor
Second floor
Doors opening
Stand clear of the doors
Doors closing
Lift going up
Third floor
etc...
More annoying than a commuter train, I can assure you, especially when it takes less time for me to climb the stairs than to take the lift because of the time it takes in making all the announcements before the doors actually close.
Lexcie
We have those same elevators at MACY*S. They never shut up. Talk about annoying. First floor going up, Second floor going up, etc. I think it has to do with ADA regs.
Peace,
ANDEE
You mean that feature has been reenabled? They used to have those announcements at Macy's at Herald Square in the late 60s, but I haven't heard them in a long time. Lest we forget the "Welcome to Macy's. Please touch button for desired floor." Then at each floor: "Arriving second floor", "arriving third floor", etc. When the 34th St. elevators were still in service, you'd hear, "Arriving street floor. For service to the lower level, transfet to 35th St. elevators" when your car reached the first floor.
No it has not been re-enabled. It is the result of an upgrde and car replacement from about 2 years ago. It is mostly for ADA compliance. It is incredibly annoying as it recycles and repeats itself every time a person gets on. So it is possible to hear 2nd floor going up...2nd floor going up...on and on, like a broken record.
Peace,
ANDEE
It must be on the 7th Ave. elevators, then, as they stop at every floor. The 35th St. elevators go nonstop to the eighth and ninth floors only.
It's on what we call "the Crossbanks". The 8 elavators that cross the building in the middle.
FYI, the 35th st. bank is due to be upgraded very soon.
Peace,
ANDEE
You'd never guess there's a bank of elevators on the 34th St. side now, the way they've been walled off.
Yes, they have been permanently closed.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heck, I still remember when the manually operated express elevators on the 34th St. side were still in use. The operator of one of the cars even dropped us off on the second or third floor once, even though they normally didn't stop there and had signs by the gates to that effect.
We still have two of those manual cars. They were never upgraded and are used as freight cars today.
Peace,
ANDEE
There was a mini-fantrip aboard the 1143E WTC tonight,
the first _scheduled_ passenger run through the new
63 St connector. Many subtalk and ERA types were
to be found clustered around the RAILFAN WINDOW of
car 3517, as well as some unofficial TA executive
representation and a few bewildered passengers.
I hope you brought your ANTI-RAILFAN SPRAY.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bewildered by all the people or bewildered when they suddenly found themselves on Sixth Ave. (Doesn't this train go to the Port Authority?) headed towards the 63rd St. connector?
When are Romeo went OOS at Canal we talked to the T/O for about a minute and my friend asked "How fast does this train go?", and his answer was 15 or 16 mph, first thing what an answer second thats not the point. Before leaving the station he reached his arm out the window and hit a button that was suspended from the ceiling. I believe this is something like a time clock, am I right? If not what is it? I thought it was a "time clock like device," but he then switched onto the unused SB Broadway Express Track after hitting it. I wouldn't think it would be a switch control because people would be changing the track all the time.
Thanks
Mike "Mr Mass Transit" What is that button to call for drinks?
It's a "punch box". It's used to select routes. It sends a signal to the tower and then a TW/O makes the request happen.
Are you sure the T/O didn't say, "50 or 60mph"?
Peace,
ANDEE
<< When are Romeo >>
Are? Try "our."
If you don't even know what a "punchbox" is... I would seriously consider changing your handle. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Perhaps 'I no transit' would be more appropriate.
If you know mass transit so well, then you know that it was a punch box to ID himself to the tower (in this case City Hall Tower). This is SO basic! And you say "1128 Romeo at Canal". No way an 1128 Romeo drops out a Canal. Are you talking about the late PM, as in 32 minutes before midnite? If you are, you should know that the TA uses military time, which means the train is the "2328". I think you should change your handle for awhile and first read what some of the more knowledgeable contributors have to say on this board before you claim any more about knowing mass transit! I think you have a lot to learn about mass transit!
You know what I think that the critizism should stop the first response was suffice and answered the question perfectly end of story, next post. Instead people have to go on and on for what reason? I know everything there is to know about NJT and NYCS is something I am acquiring knowledge for and I ask questions to find out, if asking questions is such a wrong thing, well I don't care I still going to keep doing it, I thank you Andee for answering in the first place but then why must you critisize me? Is there any reason I asked a question, I have read alot of worse questions on this board that this question. And finally I would put any amount of money that I know more about mass transit than any other 16 year old that you will find. So it looks like most of you guys have a good 30-40 years experience on me so cut me a break. Peace.
Bye
Mike "MR MASS TRANSIT" IM GLAD I HAVE THIS HANDLE, I LOVE IT! AND WILL NOT CHANGE IT, UNLESS I ASK A REALLY STUPID QUESTION WHICH I HAVEN'T DONE YET.
Mike,
I'm 16 and can promise you that there are 16 year olds who know much more than you...
-Harry
Mike, don't take the criticism too seriously. Many of the names used by subtalkers are misleading. R-68A-5200 is obviously not a subway car and people who are known by station names are obviously not stations. I'm sure brass balls doesn't really have brass balls. Anon_e_mouse is clearly not & I have my doubts as to whether heypaul is really heypaul. Right now you may not be the sharpest tool in the woodshed but don't let that stop you. Keep the handle - keep learning and some day you may, "Know Mass Transit".
train dude speaks the truth when he says:
"Right now you may not be the sharpest tool in the woodshed but don't let that stop you."
it hasn't stopped any of us chuckleheads here from posting here either...
train dude speaks the truth when he says:
"I have my doubts as to whether heypaul is really heypaul"
right on the money... after many years of costly psychotherapy, i have learned that i am not really who i am... my use of lower case letters couldn't be further from the truth of my inner anger... if i were honest i would
POST LIKE THIS!!!!!
anyway, as i say in my railfan home study course, which is available for $199.99, reduced from $200,
"it's not who or what you know, it's whether you can have some fun being yourself"
Way to go!
avid
All I have to say to end this post is I have taken what everyone has said, agree or disagree, and that I asked a question about NYCS, the reason is because I don't live in NYC and don't see it everyday. I go to the city about once a week and this was the first time I had even saw it. I was asking a simple question thank you to the person who gave me the answer. I will leave on this I had an idea of what it was I just needed clarification.
THank everyone who posted
Mike "Mr Mass Transit" So the people who know me call me
i just woke up with a tremendous idea... if we could somehow hook the west coast grid into transit's 3rd rail then when the new cars are slowing down they could supply power to the west coast during this period of power shortage... this could be very profitable, as the power could be sold at a tremendous premium... train operators here could be encouraged to travel at high speed, so as to produce more regen power... a development which would also delight the speed freaks amongst us railfans...
alas... i just found the fatal flaw in my idea... i forgot that the r-142's are a show fleet and not a regular revenue fleet that would be necessary to supply sufficient power to make the whole idea feasible...
Naw, left the left-coasters live in the dark, their used to it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Naw, left the left-coasters live in the dark, they're used to it.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think we will hear alot of scotty impression from the conductors: "Captain she can take anymore pressure, if she does she might blow!"
the R-142 can do a top speed of 55 m.p.h which is fast, the R-62 can do 10 m.p.h higher.
The R-32/38 some where in the 60's
The R-40 I heard 80 or is it the R-44
The rest I dont remember.
It might be a good idea, make sure Con Ed. dont take it.
Kawasaki literature states the maximum speed on the R-62 is 55 mph, though if you set the gearing differently perhaps you could do more.
The R-44 (St. Louis Car and Foundry Co, now defunct) holds the official world speed record for subway cars: on a test run on the LIRR, an R-44 consist reached 88 mph; the train was tested again with two motors on each car disabled to simulate a rush-hour crush load of passengers, and it reached 77 mph. The motors and associated euipment performed well, though there was some "birdcaging" on the windings, a problem which is correctable.
The R-44 and R-46 were built for service on a new Second Av and 63rd St lines, which were to have mostly long, straight stretches of track and so trains were to reach 70 mph routinely. Alas, the lines were never built as originally intended. The Second Av subway is, however, a line item in the 2000-2004 Capital Plan, so there is some hope...
I forgot to acknowledge that one of you posters wrote that a Bombardier Red Line train may have reached 100 mph on an unofficial basis while being tested. Too bad; if MBTA had done a couple of timing runs between signals with someone from Guinness Book watching, it could have been officially recorded.
Then we'd have to persuade MTA to modify the gearing on an R-68 or R-142 (the latter being an A unit with 4 motors) and run it on the LIRR again to try to take the record back...
Unfortunately, the R-68 was designed with a balancing speed of 50 MPH. It is also the heaviest of the NYCT revenue cars at roughly 93,000 Lbs. Changing the gearing to achieve nearly double the specified speed would require nearly doubling the torque to the bull gears. This would likely require the replacement of the traction motors with ones of considerably greated size. Such a change would require modification of the Line Switch and overload protection. All this to set a record? Hmmmmmmmmm.
If you somehow managed to get an unmodified R68 up to 100 MPH
(coupler adapter to an Acela trainset?) I suspect the traction
motors would rip themselves apart.
Much easier to modify the speedometer circuit (those are
teeth counters, right?) so it reads double the actual speed :)
I think what they should do is as the R-142s arrive send California all the GOH Redbirds that were modified so that when the contact shoe leaves the third rail, the battery power would keep the lights on. That way, when they have those rolling blackouts, they could just position the `birds in appropraite locations and the public would be able to use the batteries from the cars to keep things lit up.
Of course, we'd have to make sure none of those flickering Flushing line cars were sent out, since that would defeat the whole purpose of the humanitarian effort...
heypaul:
They should run all of the R-142s at night W/O passengers at maximum speed. When they slow down they might be able to supply enough power to the west coast power grid for Bill Gates to run all of his computers.
BMTJeff
Cool! A perpetual motion machine!
I once found a website advertising a perpetual motion machine. It had long impenatrable (sp?) essays about why the second law of thermodynamics was somehow an approximation, and did not apply to this machine. Yes it is still easy to separate fools from their money.
An AP story in Saturday’s Trenton Times points out several trains that have been late routinely because of having to wait for the Acela, which is scheduled to leave Trenton at 7 AM. An Amtrack clocker (which honors NJT monthly passes), an NJT express scheduled to run behind Acela on track 2, and the 7:11 New Brunswick-to-NYP train that has to cross over to track 1 at the Jersey Ave crossover and has to wait up to 10 minutes so it won’t foul the signals for the 135 mph Acela are mentioned.
Maybe it's time to revisit the issue of adding tracks. There are long bridges with only 2 tracks at different parts of the NEC, but investing to make more of the system hold 4 tracks would be worth the cost, in my humble opinion. In certain places with a wider right of way, a fifth or sixth track or a long siding (connected at both ends) would help make sure the Acela sees only "high-ball" signals while NJT, MARC and SEPTA commuters still get to where they're going on time.
As the cliche goes, Rome wasn't built in a day. Over time, we can see some of these improvements done.
A letter to your congressman and state pols (copy to NJT or Amtrak) would help.
True, and we need a massive federal government financial support to make safety improvements in the 2 Hudson River AMTRAK tunnels and while we're at it, add a third tube. This can not come out of AMTRAKS regular budget in which they have to be self suficient in a few years. It will take up the whole budget! AMTRAK also has to address the crumbling bridge at Havre-du-Grace Maryland and the 30 MPH Baltimore tunnels which are sinking! I should say the feds have to address these items as well. AMTRAK needs federal government infastructural help. The airport and road congestion in the northeast especially proves that we can't take people off the rails, there is no room on the roads or in the air!
well said
Well the whole NEC from ZOO to DOCK is 4 tracks with 6 tracks from UNION to ELMORA (6 miles) and with 2 more tracks being built from LANE to HUNTER (2-3 miles). The new Secaucas connection will add 2 extra tracks along 3-4 miles of the 2 track Penn Station terminal route. If Amtrak is really in need of tracks they can use the Conrail SAA Delair Line that runs in the 0 track position from about ZOO to SHORE and they can build a 5th and 6th track 2 miles from FAIR to the old MILLHAM interlocking.
When I caught the 6:44 out of Hammelton train I arrived about 10 min early and had to wait 15-20 min for my local train. An NJT express came about 6:35 with a clocker 5-7 min behind and my local 5-7 after that. While we were stopped at Metutchen (in the middle of LINCOLN interlocking) the ACELA express whizzed by.
I know this guy, who was just finished being taught the R-142. He learned how to operate it and luckily my father knows him so I asked him about it and he said he liked it and I asked can I go with you on one of your routes on the R-142 and he said that one of them is on the 6. So I did and wow was it cool, the technology is amazing, and it feels like a redbird with just newer technology, I wish I brough a camera so I could have taken some great front window views. The ride was great from the front, front. All in all I am pleased with the R-142, I just cannot wait until they hit my favorite line...the 4 and do the lexinton avenue dash (125-86)
Christopher Rivera
Unforunately, it doesn't look like the R142s will ever hit the 4 line, at this time.
Peace,
ANDEE
I rode the R-142 once last summer myself, I rode the R-142A's a number of times.The railfan window isnt too good, kind of foggy and really bad in tunnels.A train operator showed me the cab of the R-142A, it has a keyboard and monitor he was a nice guy he showed me how the annoucements were punched up and everything.The R-142A's start up and slow down kind of noisy like a spinning washing machine.I was on one last week people were complaing about the mundane annoucements and the brightness, which I dont like myself.I want to ride the R-142 a few times before I compare.Some R-142A's ride differently too. The one I rode on last week was very noisy with hard brake stops.I rode another one last month completely different story it rode very smooth.I copy down train numbers so I can tell that I have ridden more than one R-142A.
I rode the R-142 once last summer myself, I rode the R-142A's a number of times.The railfan window isnt too good, kind of foggy and really bad in tunnels.A train operator showed me the cab of the R-142A, it has a keyboard and monitor he was a nice guy he showed me how the annoucements were punched up and everything.The R-142A's start up and slow down kind of noisy like a spinning washing machine.I was on one last week people were complaing about the mundane annoucements and the brightness, which I dont like myself.I want to ride the R-142 a few times before I compare.Some R-142A's ride differently too. The one I rode on last week was very noisy with hard brake stops.I rode another one last month completely different story it rode very smooth.I copy down train numbers so I can tell that I have ridden more than one R-142A.
for some reason the R-142A is weird. some were built poorly. 7261-7270 had miss latching doors and loose and missing screws in panels. i also heard rattling on that one. i have road the R-142 many times. i can tell you that its quiet, the ride is less choppy, the announcements are more upbeat and friendly(the female voice) and the build quality is solid. there is no annoying wind up noise its quiet. however with the hvac off you can hear a "singing melody" during take off.
R-142 coming soon to the 5 lex ave. exp. Bronx thru exp.
Today + tomorrow they're doing the Lex dash downtown.
No there is no 5 service beyond E180 this weekend.
They means the R-142a. All downtown trains are running express from 125th to 42nd. I did not mention or imply the 5 in my post. And, the 5 is running from 149th to Bowling Green.
How is this front window on the R142s? Is it through the T/Os cab, or does the T/O have a "boxed" cab so the railfans can go all the way up to the window? I certainly hope it's the latter.
Monday I caught a R-142 at 34th & rode this #2 to Atlantic Ave. It was a unique experience (for NYC subways) to watch as the cars ahead twisted, turned and went up & down as they followed the tracks.
The unique feature ... of course ... are the glass between the cars that let you easily see several cars ahead of you. I don't see anything objectionable, as many here have. The train was bright, clean & very quite ... if only they had a real railfan window.
Mr t__:^)
true but because the train operators needed mor space, that type of railfan window we have now will have to do and it seems to give excellent view than all of its kind in the system
I rode through the 63rd St. connector on an "F" train last night (or rather eary this AM). No railfan window of course, but I was looking out the right-side window, seated in a forward-facing seat. In the new stretch between 21st St. and 36th St., there appeared to be a turnout built into the walls. No tracks of course or even what could be called a trackbed, just a smooth concrete floor, but it was clealy a provision to let future trackage go somewhere. But where? Could this be a provision for that "superexpress" line via the LIRR that was talked about years ago?
The 63rd St line has bell-mouths built into it which were designed to connect with a Second Avenue subway line (and still could). The two lines were originally supposed to be built and opened together, but the city collapsed financially in the 1970's. The MTA proposed recently building a "stubway" (125 St -63rd St subway, two tracks) which would allow trains to proceed west on 63rd St. After massive protests that this was inadequate, a full-length 2nd Av subway was proposed in the revised 2000-2004 Capital Plan. The bellmouths allow trains coming from Queens to turn south on 2nd Av from 63rd St, and trains coming south from the Bronx or Harlem to turn west, and of course, trains coming from the financial district to turn east into Queens.
This doesn't explain the fact that this was between 21st and 36th.
I think that Dan's theory makes sense. I'm surprised that the TA thinks ahead that way!
Maybe that's where the super-express was supposed to turn in. That line was killed by race concerns.
Race concerns? I gotta hear this one ...
Yeah, they were worried that too many operators on the QB line would try to unsuccessfully race the superexpress to Jamaica.
Good one! I like that.
(Race concerns? I gotta hear this one ...)
One of the options was turning the Montauk line into a subway to serve Maspeth, Ridgewood, Middle Village, Glendale -- the last homeland of working-class white New York -- into Jamaicia, then down to Southeast Queens -- the largest concentration of middle income Blacks in the city. Well, the neighborhoods FOUGHT to STOP the subway. People were amazed. The city was used to people fighting to get service, but not fighting to avoid it. People were afraid Blacks would ride the subway to their neighborhood, commit crimes, then ride the subway home. Back then, no one imagined that Black people, or criminals, would drive.
Among other things, the battle launched the political career of -- get this -- Geraldine Ferraro. She marched from one end of the line to the other, announcing the line would be built over her dead body, and was elected to a seat in congress that included both this area and Astoria. I've been told this story many time by the old timers at City Planning. Some liberal, eh?
In any event, the NIMBY/bigots needed have gotten all excited. If race concerns hadn't killed the line, NIMBY concerns would have.
Another option was a Queens "super express" branching off the QB line and running to two tracks of the LIRR before reaching the tunnel. The turn out could have been used for that, too.
I work in a jail, and many of the crooks that we get were arested while DRIVING A CAR, usually trying to make a getaway. We also get CARJACKERS. Some folks just do not think. More subway service would make life easier for all, not those who make mischief in our lives.
BTW, I once heard that statistically, criminals commit crimes within their own geographic locations. The exception is the criminal who "commutes" to steal.
BMTman
Yeah so most of the crime in Flushing is from all those roving asian teen gangs there. You wonder what ever happened to all the values asians are supposed to have when you go to Flushing.
Asian punks, girls who dye their hair blonde or red, and language, what language these punks speak english!
Another casualty-Cocunuts just closed in Flushing. Anybody know what may be next?
Some people have claimed the new terminal work for the 7 line disrupted business on Roosevelt avenue. I have to disagree though.
When they were in the midst of construction, Caldor was there, Genovese was there, Nine West was there and there were more real chinese people around, not many punks and gangs and it was busier.
Think of all the places that closed in Flushing in the past two years.
Caldor, Wendy's, Coconuts, Perfumania, Queens Savings Bank, HK Cooking, Uncle Dai, Abacus bank, and I could probably think of more.
Meanwhile only about 3 or 4 new stores, mostly small chinese music/video stores, and a few extremely busy fruit markets, have opened. So it's a net loss.
I wonder what the place looked like before all this decay (like 3 or more years ago). Do you know where I can find pictures of the Flushing
before the "trash" moved in?
I got an old Flushing community map from 1995. Looked a hell of alot cleaner, and the picture of Roosevelt avenue showed mostly chinese people around with no punks, as well as RTS buses all over.
Alot of chinese stores were listed in there that aren't even there now. You'd think the 7 line service improvements over the years would've helped, but I guess nothing can stop the punks from moving in and good chinese people moving out. More and more Elmhurst around the Grand ave-Newtown station seems to be more like the "Chinatown" Flushing used to be.
what language these punks speak english!
This being America, why is that a problem?
I always thought a requirement of living in America (excuse me, United States) should be to learn how to speak English. There's something wrong with walking down the block and being stopped and yelled at by someone in Russian, while her kid says in perfect English "lets go, mom."
I always thought a requirement of living in America (excuse me, United States) should be to learn how to speak English.
It is fairly difficult for adults to learn languages. I'm not that far removed from the immigrant experience not to remember some harsh realities. Non-english speaking adult immigrants generally do not learn fluent English.
In many cases the ethnic neighborhoods permit immigrants to rise above the level of menial jobs, where lack of language skill is a barrier.
Children, on the other hand, are great language learners. The younger the better. They can learn several languages simultaneously. I'm remided of a quote by Louis St-Laurent, a Canadian Prime Minister. He said that it wasn't until he was 9 or 10 that he realized that not every child spoke English to his mother and French to his father.
There's something wrong with walking down the block and being stopped and yelled at by someone in Russian, while her kid says in perfect English "lets go, mom."
I live in Flushing and I see this a lot. It brings back 50 year old memories, when I was that little kid helping my grandparents navigate the English speaking world.
John, do us a favor. STOP taking the bus and start taking the train from now on. You need HELP my friend. GET HELP for YOURSELF. Do yourself a favor and avoid that area if you dont like it. Thats what I do and it works.
Yeah, I agree.
John is starting to turn into the Salaam Allah of Long Island with all this whining and complaing all the friggin' time about Flushing and how it's got Asian gangs and what not....geeez, enough already!
BMTman
Well I guess my complaining directly has to do with why I'm there so often so I see the "trash" all the time. Probably more often than anyone in this group. So, when was the last time you were there?
"Gotta flush Flushing out of my head, gotta get that trash out of my mind!"
I haven't been in Flushing recently. But, I am in Herald Square every single day and you unfairly rip it apart too. It (HS) is nowhere near as bad as you make it sound. I assume this to be true of your view of Flushing too.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have been in Flushing when I rode out on the N21. It is nowhere near as bad as he says it is. The sidewalks are dirty, but every bustling downtown that hasn't been sterilized to uselessness will have that symptom.
And the north shore around Hempstead Harbor is beautiful. He never mentions that when he derides the Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor.
Well I guess my complaining directly has to do with why I'm there so often so I see the "trash" all the time. Probably more often than anyone in this group. So, when was the last time you were there?
I had dinner there around 6pm this past Sunday. The sidewalks were bustling with activity (I don't mean gang activity). The municipal parking lot we used was completely full, and cars were roving around the lot waiting for people to leave so they could take their space. Restaurants, food markets, stores, etc., were largely open and doing good business.
Many Asians don't care much for nationwide Western chains. If Wendy's and Coconuts leave, that's no big deal. But if Szechuan noodle shops, stores renting out Chinese videos, and karaoke venues started to close, then that would signal big changes.
As for gangs of youths, they're everywhere there are youths.
And these "gangs" aren't necessarily bad. Has John ever been accosted by one? He instead passes judgment based on the way they dress and the color of their (obviously dyed) hair.
They hang out because teenagers tend to stay in groups and socialize. Since they all live with their parents, the street is the only place that they have to hang out.
Your kind of attitude is what gives us youth curfews. Good thing that attitude hasn't swept NY yet (which has a law forbidding public places from denying entry based on age. I have no idea why the Frick Collection, ESPN Zone, the Sharper Image and Who Wants to be a Millionaire get away with it).
As long as Wendy's and Coconuts are replaced with Chinese-owned stores and don't sit vacant like Caldor's has.
There's no denying parts of Flushing are bustling, particularly Main street. The LI Bus stop is on the outskirts (all the way at the eastern portion of Roosevelt, by Union, which does affect my perception as most of my time there is spend waiting for the (N)ever21.
I just find that when I go to some Chinese music stores there are noisy youths, and this is only in Flushing. Particularly the Wonder Forever store which sells music and videos on the lower level of HK Plaza.
Perhaps I just have more of a personal taste for Chinatown since it is more of an enclave, and I don't see so many people with dyed hair and Mercedes Benz around (yes, Mercedes are a common sight in Flushing).
Flushing may be more of a home to those Uptown Chinese* (from the book The New Chinatown) that came from Taiwan.
I guess I just have to admit that I have a better time on East Broadway with Chinese Mainlanders, than highly educated Taiwanese in Flushing, since in general I don't like hanging with people with money. Also at least they fly the real Chinese flag in Chinatown!
An interesting book on Chinese immigrants "Lin, Jan Reconstructing Chinatown, ethnic enclave, global change" describes the "Chinatowns" within NYC. Manhattan's Chinatown is still the largest, with many old and new Chinese immigrants, and a rapidly growing portion from the Mainland. Flushing's Chinatown is different, settled by professionals from Taiwan, and has a more cosmopolitan flavor to it. Sunset Park in Brooklyn on 8th ave can attribute it's growth as a Chinatown to the N train or "Blue Sky express" called by many immigrants. Since rents are cheaper and the neighborhood more working class than Flushing, this is home to many immigrants from southern China. Also Elmhurst has seen a large influx of mainland Chinese.
So perhaps my view of Flushing just has to do with individual preferences. I guess what it shows is that the more "cosmopolitan culture" not gangs of Flushing, cause me to be turned off from the place.
And that explains why I can always get a better buy in Chinatown!
I can get CD's much cheaper in Chinatown as well.
Flushing's presence to Long Island also attracts alot of cars, which cause congestion. I've heard many suburban chinese do shop in Flushing, though I rarely see them take LIRR or LIB(well I can understand that!). Chinatown, Sunset Park, and Elmhurst attract a more transit based crowd.
I guess I just have to admit that I have a better time on East Broadway with Chinese Mainlanders, than highly educated Taiwanese in Flushing, since in general I don't like hanging with people with money. Also at least they fly the real Chinese flag in Chinatown!
We've all known about your horrific class envy for a long time, but this is the first time we're hearing about your smartness envy.
You just love to hang out with unskilled lumpen-proletariat, don't you? And you enjoy hurling rocks at the evil bougeousie.
In general when I go to "Chinatowns" I want to get a true sense of China, I just don't get that in Flushing.
Perhaps I just have more of a personal taste for Chinatown since it is more of an enclave, and I don't see so many people with dyed hair and Mercedes Benz around (yes, Mercedes are a common sight in Flushing).
While you've made it sound like Flushing is a couple steps below Sodom and Gomorrah, a more reasonable statement is that the people in Flushing, the young people in particular, are becoming Americanized. Yep, they're simply following in the footsteps of millions of immigrants, from all countries, who've preceded them into the good ol' USA ... like the ancestors of most of us.
Next time you see a Chinese girl with hair dyed honey blonde, you ought to thank her for willingly embracing American culture.
Next time you see a Chinese girl with hair dyed honey blonde, you ought to thank her for willingly embracing American culture.
Although it's just as likely to be a Chinese girl imitating Japanese girls in Tokyo imitating American culture. The young Japanese seem to be the trendsetters for young Asians everywhere right now.
Very true. You see alot of Japanese stuff (like games and toys) in Flushing. Gee, I wonder if you can get that special Japanese train playstation game there...
Very true. You see alot of Japanese stuff (like games and toys) in Flushing. Gee, I wonder if you can get that special Japanese train playstation game there...
If not in a store, you can certainly find someone who can get it for you (maybe not completely legally).
Ah, individual preferences are another thing entirely. What you say here makes more sense than past posts about Wendy's and gangs. :-)
Quite a few suburban Chinese (like my parents, in Westchester) are Mandarin-speakers from Taiwan, so they feel more comfortable shopping in Flushing among people who speak the same dialect and share a more similar background. On the flip side, I know a few people from working class Cantonese-speaking families living in Manhattan and Brooklyn, who don't like Flushing and hardly ever go there.
And then, of course, there's the huge Korean population, which I know very little about. (Chinese and Koreans seem to live in separate worlds, in Flushing and elsewhere.)
BTW, there's a real estate article in today's NY Times about Flushing ...
Chain Stores and Local Investors Find Retail Appeal in Flushing (free registration required)
I do prefer Mandarin though, which is easier to learn than Cantonese. And I do like Mandarin music from Taiwan and Mainland China. In general I think Mandarin is a prettier language to listen to, particularly in music.
Mandarin is spoken in Chinatown, particularly around East Broadway where there is a large population of mainland Chinese immigrants.
That may be one positive thing for me about Flushing, that Mandarin Chinese is widely spoken there. Often in Chinatown when I say thank you in Mandarin Chinese (pronounced "xie xie") some people don't understand. So far I only know basic Mandarin words, but I'm learning more.
I read the article, quite interesting. It seems Koreans are more successful in Flushing real estate, which could explain some of the changes I've seen going on there, as it trends more toward a Koreatown. It seems north of the LIRR station has more Koreans, south of it more Chinese. Only the new census will tell us for sure, BTW when will the results be released?
Back to subways, I do see alot more Korean people riding the 7 train, usually getting off at Main street or Woodside. It seems I see more Chinese on the R local to Elmhurst than I do on the 7 to Flushing.
I also read the article. The former Woolworth's space will become Old Navy in early summer. The former Caldor's space still haven't found a buyer.
I see alot of Koreans in Flushing driving new Nissan Maximas, SUVs, ... you name a luxury car, you're bound to see a Korean sitting in one.
So then it's true! The American Dream can be realized!
WELCOME TO AMERICA!
avid
You're absolutely right. I should take the train, and avoid Flushing most of the time. It's a shame, because I used to enjoy going there. But I guess it should not be used as my main thoroughfare anymore. Perhaps on weekends when there's no PEAK fare I will take LIRR both ways and avoid that horrible bus ride and the ruins of Flushing.
Perhaps a whole change in my transit plan to NYC is what's needed.
Take an E,F, or R train and get off in Elmhurst (well only the R stops there, it is a local but much less crowded than E or F). Elmhurst feels alot safer than Flushing, and the Chinese crowd that used to be in Flushing lives there. Also with Queens Blvd subway lines giving alot more direct access to Manhattan vs. the 7 line, the Elmhurst/Rego Park area has alot more going for it than Flushing. The 7 line only has three stops in Manhattan, while the E,F, and R (and future V) have many more.
The E train goes right to Jamaica, where I can get an Oyster Bay train to Sea Cliff. A Port Washington train can be gotten from Woodside (does Woodside have ticket machines?).
Or on times I avoid Queens entirely I just take LIRR.
You are absolutely right. Visits to Flushing should be minimal and by not going there as much it makes the right statement. And I don't deliberately depress myself by going to the big toilet, that needs a Flushing! :-0
I grew up near Flushing and used to take the Q44 to Main Street and Roosevelt Avenue and walk to Shea Stadium for the Mets games. Other than some obvious congestion, that part of Flushing looks about the same now as it did in the 1970's. The demographics haven't changed that much. True, there used to be department stores on Roosevelt Avenue east of Main Street (Alexander's and Gertz, and Korvette's on Kissena Boulevard nearby), those chains all went out of business before the congestion became really bad. The Prospect and RKO Keith theatres also did well until they were closed by their owners.
I think you are being too hard on the area. Its congested, sure, but I still feel pretty safe there. The Asian community that lives there is hard-working and earnest and I have no problem taking the 7 to Main Street.
Some people have claimed the new terminal work for the 7 line disrupted business on Roosevelt avenue. I have to disagree though.
When they were in the midst of construction, Caldor was there, Genovese was there, Nine West was there and there were more real chinese people around, not many punks and gangs and it was busier.
Think of all the places that closed in Flushing in the past two years.
Caldor, Wendy's, Coconuts, Perfumania, Queens Savings Bank, HK Cooking, Uncle Dai, Abacus bank, and I could probably think of more.
Meanwhile only about 3 or 4 new stores, mostly small chinese music/video stores, and a few extremely busy fruit markets, have opened. So it's a net loss.
Many businesses complained loud and clear about the disruptions caused by the prolonged construction on the 7 train's terminal. It's a well-documented matter of public record. And anyone who had driven or walked through the area during the construction project could well attest to what a mess it became.
In the TA's (partial) defense, some businesses do have a habit of blaming externalities such as construction for sluggish sales. Look at the way most nationwide retailers are quick to blame the weather if they miss sales targets. A transit-related example is the way the TA was blamed (though not necessarily by the merchants themselves) for the decline of Jamaica as a shopping area following the premature demolition of the Jamaica Avenue El. Choosing a convenient scapegoat such as TA policies or weather allows the businesses themselves to avoid blame for what might have been poor business practices or an inability to face competition. I do not know if this was the case in Flushing, though I tend to think not simply because of the excessive traffic and pedestrian disruption.
As far as some of your specific examples are concerned, Caldor's left Flushing because the entire chain failed. As we've discussed here before, the building is not easily suitable for a business other than a department store, and few if any department store chains are in expansion modes. We all know what happened to Wendy's. And most of the other store closing probably were part of the normal ebb and flow of businesses, possibly exacerbated by the station-construction mess. Hopefully Flushing will be able to pick up enough new businesses to replace the ones it lost.
Choosing a convenient scapegoat such as TA policies or weather allows the businesses themselves to avoid blame for what might have been poor business practices or an inability to face competition
And also in the case of Jamaica (not so much Flushing), obsolesence(sp?)*.
*When somebody says (sp?) they actually want their spelling corrected. This is no different.
I read in the Queens tribune site that there are large plans for improvement in Flushing. Many residents feel the area is run down and needs a boost. That's why an Chinese-American developer is planning to build a large shopping area, and clean up the area so more people shop there again.
You can read about it at www.queenstribune.com
Do you know where I can find pictures of the Flushing
before the "trash" moved in?
I don't know about "recent" pictures, but a good source of photos of Flushing from the late 19th century through the 1940s or '50s is the book Old Queens, N.Y. in Photographs. The Flushing library probably has some collections of historic photographs, too.
How Ironic! I looked at that book in the library today! They did have some pictures of downtown Flushing, up till the 40s. I could barely even recognize the place, only the LIRR overpass that was put in.
It did look more like a busy downtown, once the subway opened there, in their 1940s pictures. Main street sure looked a hell of alot wider, and there was a Flushing-Ridgewood trolley. Did this run where the Q58 runs now?
Did this run where the Q58 runs now?
One block further north. NYCDOT reversed the directions of 41st Road and 41st Avenues, when a small municipal parking lot opened on 41st Avenue. The last Flushing-Ridgewood trolley looped as follows: Rodman St (now College Point Blvd) to 41st Ave to Main St to 41st Rd to Rodman.
You forgot the New York & Queens trolley on Main St.
I could barely even recognize the place, only the LIRR overpass that was put in.
Most of the building has taken place during the last 15 years. This block, showing the Flushing-Ridgewood routing , was intact until about 5 years ago. The major exceptions being: Gertz/Sterns (1950) on Roosevelt; Woolworths (ca 1953); Kleins/Alexanders/Caldor (ca 1960).
Interesting. Thanks for the links to the pictures. Flushing sure looked nice back then! When my Mom was a child she lived in Brooklyn on Ocean parkway, she said that was a nice neighborhood. Unfortunately she never was able to tell me about the subways then because she rarely rode on them. But boy has that neighborhood changed!
But boy has that neighborhood changed!
Ocean Parkway is still lined with nice homes. What has changed? Those evil people with Mercedes's?
Someone in my family told me Ocean parkway was dangerous, not as safe as it used to be.
[But boy has that neighborhood changed!]
What are you talking about?!
Again you know nothing about what you're referring to. The neighborhood of Ocean Parkway is STILL NICE, tree-lined and very quiet. What is your gripe about Ocean Parkway? Why don't you take the the F Train to Fort Hamilton Parkway and check out the area first-hand before passing judgement, okay?
Geez....
BMTman
OK, my apologies I guess that family member that told me Ocean parkway was bad was wrong. Maybe they got it confused with another part of Brooklyn. Again, I am sorry.
Maybe Eastern Parkway?
Eastern Parkway (the original Olmsted-Vaux route from Grand Army Plaza to Ralph Avenue) may not be as great as it used to be, but it's still a beautiful road and in some ways, I think EP is nicer than OP since it has old style lighting and other things that make it look more like it did when it was built.
That looks like none other that Shoreline's BRT streetcar 4573.
I thought it looked familiar. The BRT ran in Queens?
The BRT ran in Queens?
The Flushing Ave and Grand Ave Lines ran in 3 boroughs. Passport checks were eliminated when OPTO was introduced.
The areas around the lower Montauk aren't great to begin with because of poor transit access. Perhaps those NIMBY's should meet those up here on the north shore and have a picnic.
The areas around the lower Montauk aren't great to begin with because of poor transit access.
Perhaps those NIMBY's should meet those up here on the north shore and have a picnic.
One might say that opposition was so strong precisely because the areas weren't particularly upscale. As noted, most residents at the time were working-class whites, not affluent by any means, and property values weren't terribly high. If values were higher, there probably wouldn't have been such a fear that "those people" would flood into the neighborhoods if there were a subway. Similarly, if the residents had been a bit higher up the economic ladder, they probably would have been less insecure.
None of this isn't to say that you can't have upscale NIMBY's. But nothing breeds fear like insecurity.
(One might say that opposition was so strong precisely because the areas weren't particularly upscale. As noted, most residents at the time were working-class whites, not affluent by any means,
and property values weren't terribly high. If values were higher, there probably wouldn't have been such a fear that "those people" would flood into the neighborhoods if there were a subway.)
I think you've got it right. What is known as the affordable housing problem in the New York Area is actually what might be called Archie Bunker's dillema. There are plenty of affordable neighborhoods, but most aren't exclusively white. And non-college-educated whites are less likely to be willing to tolerate mixed-race neighborhoods than college educated whites. You end up with college-educated whites having a choice of rich mostly white neighborhoods and affordable mixed middle income neighborhoods, and non-college educated whites getting pretty thin on the ground.
Hence the Cops and Firemen commuting two hours from Orange County, demanding big salaries so they can move to Scarsdale. As I said, Queens Community District 5 -- Maspeth, Middle Village, Ridgewood, Glendale -- is the last big holdout of circa 1950 New York. They think the lack of subway has preserved them from the rich and poor, and they might be right.
What is known as the affordable housing problem in the New York Area is actually what might be called Archie Bunker's dillema. There are plenty of affordable neighborhoods, but most aren't exclusively white. And non-college-educated whites are less likely to be willing to tolerate mixed-race neighborhoods than college educated whites. You end up with college-educated whites having a choice of rich mostly white neighborhoods and affordable mixed middle income neighborhoods, and non-college educated whites getting pretty thin on the ground.
I have heard, anecdotally, that working-class whites account for the largest share of (non-retiree) New Yorkers who move to the Sunbelt. Dunno if the Census results will have sufficient detail to confirm this.
There are plenty of affordable neighborhoods, but most aren't exclusively white.
Just out of curiousity, what is considered "affordable" in New York? To put the question another way, let's say I'm a college graduate in my mid-20's and just got a job in Midtown Manhattan that pays about $40,000 a year. I'm looking for an affordable one-bedroom apartment close to the subway, I don't mind living in a neighborhood with other ethnic groups, but I do mind listening to gunfire at night. Obviously the Upper West Side is out of the question for my price range, but I do want to be in one of the three boroughs with direct subway access to Manhattan, if not Manhattan itself. Staten Island or New Jersey would be strictly a fallback if nothing else were available.
What neighborhoods would I look in, and how much would I expect to pay in rent for a place? Also, how hard would it be to get a place once I find one? Is it like Manhattan where I would have to let a realtor put my financial history under a microscope and then demand my firstborn child as a security deposit, or would it be like Chicago where I could simply fill out an application, pay the first month's rent and a deposit, and pick up the keys?
Inquiring minds want to know...
-- David
Chicago, IL
I might suggest the area around w238th St & Bway - Bailey Av, up in the NW Bronx...not a congested area/lots of working people living there...Easy Transportation (IRT #1&9)..busses etc, lots of neighborhood shopping..and affordable rents...($700 to $900 monthly)...suggest you buy the Riverdale Press...a weekly out on Wed nites....lots of Apt adds..some w/no fees...(BTW a fairly safe area).
(I might suggest the area around w238th St & Bway - Bailey Av, up in the NW Bronx...not a congested area/lots of working people living there...Easy Transportation (IRT #1&9)..busses etc, lots of neighborhood shopping..and affordable rents...($700 to $900 monthly)...suggest you buy the Riverdale Press...a weekly out on Wed nites....lots of Apt adds..some w/no fees...(BTW a fairly safe area).)
That's where I lived when I first moved to NYC (since I was from Yonkers, just over the border). Four of us lived in a three-bedroom apartment (I got the living room) on the third floor of a six story walk-up one block from the el. The rent was $500 per month (say $1,000 today). We each paid $125 (say $250 today).
Windsor Terrace, Brooklyn, where I know live, was affordable when I moved there in 1986, but now it's as yuppie as Park Slope. But you could probably move into an apartment building further out in Kensignton or on Ocean Parkway for a decent rent. Southern Ocean Avenue (northern fails the gun test) is another possibility.
In general, older 6-8 story apartment buildings further out from Manhattan are affordable. They are occupied by old whites and immigrants, with the latter rapidly replacing the former. Affluent people want Manhattan or "Brownstone Brooklyn" before they have kids, and houses afterward. If you get a two-bedroom apartment in one of these buildings with a roomate, you can probably pay just $500 per month in rent, or $6,000 per year. Apartments in such buildings tend to be affordable even in many middle-income locations, such as on 4th Avenue in Bay Ridge and Bay Parkway in Bensonhurst. They can be hard to find, though, because they are generally rented through networks -- cheaper than advertizing.
A somewhat disturbing underlying theme is that a person in the original posting's hypothetical situation (mid 20's, earning about 40K per year) indeed can find some affordable neighborhoods in NYC ... if he or she is content to rent. But if our hypothetical twentysomething wants to buy a house or even a condominium, it's time to look elsewhere unless Mom and Dad can come through with a mighty big gift. In many places out in the Great Flyover, in contrast to NYC and indeed the whole metro area, homeownership is possible with a 40K income (granted, incomes tend to be lower, but not enough to cancel out the benefits of lower house prices). It's no wonder that, according to the anecdotes I've heard, much of the Sunbelt migration from the city is working class and lower middle class.
(A somewhat disturbing underlying theme is that a person in the original posting's hypothetical situation (mid 20's, earning about
40K per year) indeed can find some affordable neighborhoods in NYC ... if he or she is content to rent. But if our hypothetical twentysomething wants to buy a house or even a condominium, it's time to look elsewhere.)
This has to do with the nature of NYC's housing stock. In the U.S., nearly of the housing units are owner-occupied, vs. less than 1/3 in NYC. And in the U.S., nearly 2/3 of the housing units have 3+ bedrooms, vs. less than 1/3 in NYC.
This doesn't affect young singles and couples -- the subsidy for ownership probably induced more people to own than should -- but it does affect families with children, and drive them out of the city. In middling suburbs -- the south shore of Long Island for example -- houses are much more affordable (relative to income) than in the 1980s. Then again, those areas are reaching 50 years old, the age when pass down and flight has the potential to set in.
Ah, pass down and flight....my own father has been in that trap for the past 20 years. Thank You for giving me a phrase to ascribe to it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Isn't it because the density of population in New York City is so high and the available open space so meager that affordable new housing is at a premium in the city? I have heard stories of urban renewal for a long time, and was wondering if some of the older neighborhoods could be revived by building new homes and apartments in the area that would attract young couples planning of having families? I put an emphasis on single family homes. Would such a program even be worth the cost, though?
(I have heard stories of urban renewal for a long time, and was wondering if some of the older neighborhoods could be revived by
building new homes and apartments in the area that would attract young couples planning of having families?)
No land available. The one thing you could do is tear down homes and replace them with apartment buildings, but apartment buildings are more expensive to build and the homes are desirable, so the costs are high. New York's poverty rate is over 20 percent, so somehow people can live here. Perhaps the places with affordable housing problems are actually the affluent suburbs.
That's really a shame because some people love what cities have to offer in the way of culture and entertainment and the fact that they're priced out of neighborhoods precludes them for enjoying such a life. It also makes for some long commutes to their jobs from the suburbs. We are experts of that problem out here in California.
Larry's point about affordable housing shortages in affluent suburbs is totally correct - very often suburbs intentionally zone out lower-income housing (through minimum lot sizes, prohibitions on trailer parks and multifamily dwellings, etc.). Local businesses then experience tremendous labor shortages, since teenagers can't take up all the slack (even if they want to) and transit systems aren't designed to bring jobless people in from urban areas. And I'll bet that lurking in the background, more often than people care to admit, is racial bias - some folks would rather have no labor than "risk their businesses" on black or latino staff.
Another thought on home ownership - an additional barrier in NYC is the size of down payment usually required. Most co-op buildings (traditionally, a co-op is a sort of poor man's homeownership) require at least 20% down, and sometimes more. My step-mom, who owns a real estate business in Maryland about an hour NW of DC, was appalled when I told her this - she often works with first-time buyers who can get FHA mortgages for as little as 3% down. The happy thing is that we're really close and she's making money, so she and my dad gave me half the down payment I needed for my little studio in Chelsea. (This was four years ago.)
Today's New York Times notes that for the first time in a long time rents are starting to decrease. I'm thankful, because it really was getting out of control. If it weren't for my folks, I'd be going through the same struggle so I count my blessings.
The 20% down rule on co-ops exists mainly because of the greater variability in co-op prices as compared to single family houses. Still, even with houses most banks will require private mortgage insurance if you put down less than 20%. Banks don't want to have an outstanding loan for more than the property value.
When a co-op requires more than 20% down, that's usually an indicator that the co-op board is trying to keep people out who don't have boatloads of cash at their disposal.
We can always ship people to Arcadia Calif, plenty of space there
Why not! We could use a little extra class---not that we don't have enough already. But there is always room for one or two or four hundered more. BTW, one problem we share with New York is lack of affordable housing adjacent to places of employment. The commute for young people is sometimes as much as 60 miles one way to their places of employment because choice areas of LA anbd Orange Counties are priced into the stratosphere. Yet some places in the South and Midwest can get you a place three times bigger in both house footage and yard space, and at the same time cost one third as much. Very strange.
(Why not! We could use a little extra class---not that we don't have enough already. But there is always room for one or two or four hundered more.)
Actually, I wouldn't say metro LA has room. Housing prices there are REALLY high, and the LA area is denser than the NY area (ie. there is no Manhattan or Brooklyn but it's Staten Island everywehre). In addition to land, California is out of water and power.
I guess that's the problem with living in the places that everyone in the world wants to be.
Plenty of room in Buffalo, however.
Larry, with all due respect, I will gladly pass on Buffalo. However, you are right. We here in California are growing faster than resources will allow. We need more power and have to find more water, otherwise our growth will be limited. You can still buy a nice house out here in a nice neighborhood for a decent price, but you have to move out away from the coast. That necessitates a long commute, and until business and industry follow the people out into Riverside and San Bernardino Counties, this is the problem young families will face.
By the way, if you're into music, Bela Bartok lived in that neighborhood inthe 1940s, and he regularly rode what is now the 1 train to to work.
Mark Michalovic
(By the way, if you're into music, Bela Bartok lived in that neighborhood inthe 1940s, and he regularly rode what is now the 1
train to to work.)
Yes, and doctors and lawyers lived on the Grand Concourse, the United Nations met at Lehman College, and Robert Moses tore down the Lincoln Square neighborhood and built Lincoln Center in part because planners were afraid the entire Upper West Side was going to become a slum.
A long time ago, wasn't it? Enough to make you wonder what might happen in 50 years.
I've played some Bartok down through the years, most notably his Concerto for Orchestra.
What instrument do you play? What orchestras? Bartok is my favorite composer. I especially like the string quartets. Feel free to answer by email, since this is getting off topic...
Mark Michalovic
Thanks for bringing this topic up, Dave....cuz I'll be out of college in a little more than a year myself. I figure that I will be in Boston for a few years, but my ultimate goal is to live in or around NYC. In addition to the other 4 boroughs, I am curious about living in Hoboken, NJ somewhere near the PATH train. Will I find any discounts here for a studio or 1 bedroom apartment, compared to the other boroughs? -Nick
Thanks for bringing this topic up, Dave....cuz I'll be out of college in a little more than a year myself. I figure that I will be in Boston for a few years, but my ultimate goal is to live in or around NYC. In addition to the other 4 boroughs, I am curious about living in Hoboken, NJ somewhere near the PATH train. Will I find any discounts here for a studio or 1 bedroom apartment, compared to the other boroughs? -Nick
I have heard that the more desirable, trendy parts of Hoboken have gotten quite expensive - maybe not quite to Manhattan levels, but comparable to the top neighborhoods in the outer boroughs. Areas along Hoboken's western edge are cheaper but a lot less desirable.
Areas along Hoboken's western edge are cheaper but a lot less desirable.
how much less...are there crime concerns here? -Nick
Western edge meaning touching Jersey City crime can become a problem over here and it is somewhat desserted not a nice place to walk around.
Mike
Mr Mass Transit "I love NJ"
Hasn't Jersey City been revived somewhat? Is it still dangerous?
Has Jersey City been revived? Yes but thats a matter of opinion, people say JC is losing its "Urban Edge" because of Yuppies moving in, but do remember that is by the waterfront really not near Hoboken. That section of JC can be shaky, but we do have to remember that this is one of the worst cities in the state and top 50 for the country for crime rate regardless of "being revived." Bottomline is that the waterfront is basically a Mini NYC, with lower than the rest of the cities occurance of crime. Even if you take the HBLR some of those neighborhoods are shaky esp at night. Not trying to discourage you from moving to NJ but no matter where you go in NYC/North Jersey your gonna have crime, just have to live with some of it.
Mike
Mr Mass Transit
(Bottomline is that the waterfront is basically a Mini NYC, with lower than the rest of the cities occurance of crime.)
In the opinion of one city planner, the Jersey City waterfront is actually a mini-suburban office park, isolated from the city and the poor people in it, and primarily accessible by car. Hence its appeal to suburbanites, relative to Downtown Brooklyn.
In the opinion of one city planner, the Jersey City waterfront is actually a mini-suburban office park, isolated from the city and the poor people in it, and primarily accessible by car.
And bus, and PATH, and HBLR.
I remember going to Newport Centre last summer. I felt like I was at Green Acres, between the type of crowd there and the rather small department stores. There was a lot of unruly teens in the food court. However in the PATH Pavonia-Newport station, there was more of a yuppie and commuter crowd.
All in all I probably won't be visiting Jersey City anytime soon, except maybe riding PATH one more time before the fare jumps to $2.
No problem... I'm not really seriously considering a move to New York just yet, but I've always been a little curious just how possible it would be for me to do.
Chicago is definately where I would like to settle down and raise a family, but there is a part of me that really wants to live someplace like New York, London or Paris for a year or two while I'm still young enough and single enough to do it. NYC would obviously be the most likely candidate, especially since it already feels a bit like a second home to me, and Columbia University's Urban Design program would be something I'd be very interested in pursuing for grad school eventually. (Assuming I still have any desire to set foot on a college campus after I finally finish my undergrad degree in architecture.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
(Columbia University's Urban Design program would be something I'd be very interested in pursuing for grad school eventually. (Assuming I still have any desire to set foot on a college campus after I finally finish my undergrad degree in architecture.)
If you're studying architecture, good thing you're planning to live cheap. It's almost as bad as City Planning. A car-free life is definately for you, unless Mom and Dad can front you the money to try building things yourself, and you happen to hit it big.
As a matter of personal opinion I love Jersey City and find it to be a great place to live. I love everything about it, crime doesn't bother me for the most part anywhere I go. Bringing up kids is another story since the schools try, but fail. If you have enough money for private/perochial schools then Jersey City is not only a place for you but maybe even to raise your family one day.
Mike
Mr Mass Transit "JC accesible by PATH, HBLR, ferries, NJT buses and dozens of private buses around the city."
wow much complication these people pffer man. considr looking in brooklyn along the neighborhoods that run north to south, Kensington midwood, sheepshead bay, around kings highway and gravesend. all affordable neighborhoods for your income range, all serviced by subways and busses with shopping areas and no worries reguarding crime.
SeveN speaks the truth
Peace,
ANDEE
wow thanks Andee, first responce to my post without a death threat by anyone in the group Take care
Bottom line, the affordability problem is a race/class problem, and a housing type problem. There is plenty of housing affordable to most people with a job (just about any job) in four-to-eight story apartment buildings in mixed income-race-ethnic neighborhoods. If you want to live in Manhattan or a similary college-educated-centric neighborhood, or want a house, housing is expensive, otherwise it is not.
It isn't dirt cheap, as it is in some parts of the U.S., but it isn't horrendous either. And, BTW, the median price of a single family home in the Seattle or Chicago areas is now as high as in the NY area, or close to it. Forget about California.
Housing production is limited by the fact that most of the city is already built. There are plenty of places in the outer-boroughs where you could build seven story apartment buildings, but families that can afford the cost of a new housing unit don't want to live in them.
I wish I would have read this first because then I wouldn't have had to put my two cents in where I'm not as much in the know as you are. The one thing I do believe, however, is that for some reason the powers that be in New York seem to give the outer boroughs short shrift. The emphasis is on showplace Manhattan.
I live in Oakland Gardens, Queens. I drive to the subway at 179th (Van Wyck Blvd on Monday and Tuesday.) It's an hour to or from my job on 5th Ave in the teens.
As Queens neighborhoods go, I guess I would recomend something along the Queens Blvd line. Jackson Heights has both the QB IND and the Flushing IRT nearby (just don't live too close to the el) and is a nice neighborhood. I bet it's affordable.
:-) Andrew
How's Astoria?
It seems like a lively area, especially on the Greek Independence Day - I went out there last year with one of my friends, his brother, and his father, who are Greek, and after we marched in the parade (he was on a float, I just walked and waved a Greek flag), we rode the N train out to 30th Ave and ate in a Greek coffee shop. People were cruising around with Greek flags on their windshields and blaring Greek music, honking their horns and hollering out the windows. People in their apartments hung Greek flags out their windows and screamed to people on the sidewalk. At one point, a car stopped and four young kids jumped out and breakdanced to a Greek dance tune on the hood, roof, and trunk of their Camaro. People were running out of the coffee shop to look, and at first, I thought there was a serious fight or armed robbery or something!
I really loved the whole festive feel of it - the Greek people are very hospitible and friendly - it felt like one big family out there!
By the end of the day, everything appeared to be colored in white and blue stripes . . . ;-)
Of course, the above statements are biased, having come from a Greek-American like myself!
Oh yes. Astoria's great! My wife works on Steinway St, and it's really a wonderful, cosmopolitan neighborhood with plenty of subway access. Unfortunately I'm not sure it's really affordable.
:-) Andrew
Today the day I read this post I bought a book at B&N and it's called "Zany's NYC apartment sales & rental guide 2001" From what I have read in the book I like it so far it has a good number of neighborhoods in the outer boroughs and all of Manhattan (of course) including Jersey City and Hoboken NJ. It shows Ethnicity, Household Income, Average Monthly Rent, Commuting, and more. I find it to be very informative and worth the $11. Among the neighborhoods in the book are Bay Ridge, Astoria, BPC, LIC, Bed-Sty, Bensonhurst, Hoboken, Jersey City, Coney Island, Corona, Downtown, Flushing, DUMBO, SoHo, NoHo, TriBeCa, Greenwich Village plus many more. This book is for you so I think you should go check it out.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" "1-liners are coming up short today"
We had that same nonsense with Baltimore's Central Light Rail Line ("Schaefer's Trolley"). The affluent neighborhoods of Ruxton and Riderwood blocked the placement of stations there...now they're beefing about having to go north to Lutherville or south to Falls Road and Mt. Washington for service. Never mind that there's only three stations on the road that are in black neighborhoods (Westport, Cherry Hill, and - barely - Patapsco Avenue); all the rest are in either downtown or middle-class/affluent white communities. True, there was a slight uptick in crime at shopping centers near several stations (Lutherville, Cromwell), but a simple modification of police strategy took care of that. Both those shopping centers have since been crippled, not by crime but by the closing of Caldor's. And the never-popular Hunt Valley Mall on the north end is being demolished.
Race and NIMBY-ism are also partly to blame for the death-by-yuppie of the venerable #28 bus line. The route once ran from Cherry Hill or Lakeland in the south, thru downtown and Bolton Hill to Randallstown, Woodlawn or Pikesville in the west-northwest. For decades the line ran on Park Ave. in Bolton Hill, with no complaints. In 1984, the Metro/Subway's feeder system cut off the northwest end of the #28 above Mondawmin (except on Sundays and early a.m. Saturday); the same happened on the other end in 1992 with the light rail connectors. Meanwhile, Bolton Hill's transient yuppies started screwing with the line in the mid-1980s: first they forced the line two blocks east of Park Ave. to Mt. Royal Avenue at night. But the folks on that street didn't want buses either, so the #28 ended up two to five blocks west of Park on Eutaw Place. Eventually the bus was forced to run on Eutaw full time. By the late 1990s the #28 was just a glorified shuttle between Camden Yards and Mondawmin (except on Sundays and early Sat.), so the MTA killed the line and rerouted the #5 to serve the Reservoir Hill area north of Bolton Hill. The Bolton yuppies are expected to now train their sights on the #91 and Sunday #28 running on Eutaw Place, now that a low-income development on the street has been replaced by luxury townhomes.
They had a NIMBY situation when they were planning the Los Angeles Metro (The Red Line). The Line was supposed to run from downtown, along Wilshire Boulevard (one of L.A.'s busiest, most central thoroughfares) all the way to the ocean. Stations are set fairly far apart from one another. NIMBYs had a planned station at Chrenshaw Boulevard nixed, since Crenshaw is a major street many miles to the south in the neighborhood known as Watts. Some NIMBYs didn't want "the element" (sic) taking the Crenshaw bus to the Wilshire Subway.
Of course, the issue is moot now, since the County cut off funding to the subway, anyway.
I know about those, but this was in Queens, not Manhattan. "John" in another thread talks about the "Sunnyside connection", I guess that is what I saw. He doesn't describe it though. I know there was talk about the TA acquiring or using a portion of Sunnyside yard, perhaps they have made provision for a portal into the yard from the 63rd St. line?
That bellmouth was for whatever else the line was to be connected to--Main Line super express, Montauk Branch, or just the more recently proposed Sunnyside yard storage area. The first two plans both were to pass through the Sunnyside yard, so you can sum it all up by saying the connection is to the yard.
(That bellmouth was for whatever else the line was to be connected to--Main Line super express, Montauk Branch, or just the more recently proposed Sunnyside yard storage area. The first two plans both were to pass through the Sunnyside yard, so you can sum it all up by saying the connection is to the yard.)
Too bad they didn't build the connection. A temporary subway/LIRR station would have been used to allow LIRR passengers to transfer for a direct subway ride to Manahattan. The tunnel has more than enough capacity for a few more trains per hour. It would have been way to get LIRR riders into east Midtown until the LIRR to GCT is built.
[Too bad they didn't build the connection. A temporary subway/LIRR station would have been used to allow LIRR passengers to transfer for a direct subway ride to Manahattan. The tunnel has more than enough capacity for a few more trains per hour. It would have been way to get LIRR riders into east Midtown until the LIRR to GCT is built. ]
They could build an underground station around Park Avenue to give LIRR riders ESA.
Arti
When I toured the connector under construction, the project
manager mentioned those bellmouths being constructed for
future Sunnyside yard connection.
Wasn't that Capital Plan voted down?
It's possible that the turnout is for the proposed Sunnyside yard the MTA has been talking about. It was posted here about a year or so ago the yard would be connected to the new 63rd St. line and also possible have a ramp down from the Flushing line, but I haven't heard anything more about that since then.
I'm sure that's exactly what it's for. I saw a news segment a short while back which mentioned it and they made it sound like it was almost a done deal.
By chance does that bellmouth begin at the point where the connector curves to the left (eastbound)? If so, it's there because the LIRR tunnel underneath is continuing straight, and probably continues to the point where the LIRR tunnel is clear of the subway route. I'll look tomorrow...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I had an opportunity to take my first trip through the connector today. It was on an R32 R train. This tunnel is so amazing in a way that it is very clean(for the time being), the signals were so bright and the ride was very smooth, so smooth that you would think that the train was stopped.
I was looking for an R-32 R all day, so I could railfan window the Broadway express and the connector. Ah well, there's always next week.
Anyone else think it's cool that for the first time there was direct service connecting all 6 stations built after the 60s?
It's part of a provision for access to Sunnyside.
I suspect the turnout was put in place so the LIRR could be connected to the lower level (the tunnel has a currently unused lower level) without disrupting the subway above. If I recall right, when they built the connector through the lot between 29th street and northern blvd, they extended the lower level track below the present subway line up to the point where the turnout is (close to the sidewalk @ northern blvd). I've heard of many plans to run some LIRR through the lower level of 63rd. st to a connection with grand central, with the old LIRR 'A' yard (unused freight yard next to amtrak's sunnyside) being used to store MUs (bilevels apparently won't fit). NYA's little shop is eventually suppose to be relocated to fresh pond jct. when this all goes down.
-Joe
They could use it for the subway replacement for the Astoria EL.
Does anyone have UPDATED Rosters for
LIRR
METR NORTH
NJT
SEPTA
MARC
VRE
Every site that i have seen is incomplete---usually missing MFGR Dates
I need Fleet/car numbers,Dates ,Manufacture Co..,Model number
Thank you
Steve
NYC Fire Dept
I took advantage of the mild weather and did some railfanning.first I rode the 4 line, (R-62's are starting to look bad with dark interiors and scratches).The train rolled into 125th street, all trains were running down the express track, including the 6 line.I hopped on the uptown 6 line. The train I rode on was a mixed bag of R-36WF and R-36 mainline 8 R-36 WF and two mainline R-36.I had a chance to see about three R-142A's heading downtown, more than what I have on my line the 2 line!!!!! I only rode the R-142 once on the 2 !!!!!!Nice view of Westchester Yard from the EL. trains were backing up like crazy around Middletown Road station, does this happen often? We had two R-62A's stuck in front of us!!!I got off at the station, barely missing yet another R-142A!!!! I took the 2 line back from Times Square where they were doing some major trackwork one area was just north of 135th street, another area was it looks like they were doing switchwork at the 149th street Grand Concourse and the 2 Line was single tracking from 149th street to just above 149th street and 3rd avenue station.all in all it was fun but there was significant track work on the IRT.
R-142As 7221-7310 are in service, I think. That's 9 trains.
What's the latest on the threatened Siberia, at the IRT 50th St station?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hey Subway Fans!! If you guys want to get a view of some amazing construction work going on, take the uptown N/R and watch out the right side of the car as the train bypasses the 8th Street Station and the Prince Street Station because the original mosaic and tile work is now exposed!
They have chopped up the old, ugly tiles from the 70s-80s and you can see the original work, its a little grayed over, but I'm supposing that they are in the process of restoring it.
For those interested: just a reminder that Wayne-MrSlantR40 and I will be hosting a SubTalk field trip tomorrow through the 63rd Street connector, also touching on the entrance to the unused Roosevelt Avenue terminal station (Winfield Spur), Canal Street on the bridge line, and the magnificent ruin known as Chambers Street. We will meet at 10:15 AM by Oculus at WTC, departing promptly at 10:45 AM on the next E train (have your FunPass ready when you get there). A lunch stop will be made at some point by mutual agreement. I know that we have several folks joining us, all are welcome!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I will be trying to go, but where is the "oculus"?
Wayne wrote up a good description so I'll just quote it here...
Oculus? OCULUS!!! You can't miss it, it is that big, a giant mosaic on the floor maybe 25 feet across, behind a stainless-steel railing, in the mezzanine of the IND Chambers-H&M/WTC station.
Best way I can describe where it is is thus: It is at the head of the stairs at the SOUTH END of the "A" or "C" (Chambers-H&M) platform, you bear left, then bear right and you can't miss it. It is right near where the transfer to the #2/#3 train is. It is pretty much right at the Park Place/Church Street IND exits.
There should be a good bunch of us there... I'm the ugly guy with the bushy beard. Join the fun!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK, I think I know where that is. Since I'm coming from far I'll have to catch an 8:28AM LIRR train out of Sea Cliff, then get the E at Jamaica, or the 7:30am N21. I think I'll go for the train, it arrives at Jamaica at 9:09am, over an hour should be plenty of time to get to WTC.
It's about a 20 minute walk to the station, and I could get a few Z's if I take the train.
Anon_e_mouse Jr. and I boarded the good ship John F. Kennedy at 0900, destination Manhattan Island, for the Sunday SubTalk Field Trip through the 63rd Street Connector. We took an N train up to WTC and were waiting by Occulus at 0950, well in advance of the crowd. By 1045 ten of us had gathered there - Jr. and myself, Wayne-MrSlantR40, faxman, John, RIPTA42HopeTunnel, Dave Pirmann, Vernon M, High Street/Brooklyn Bridge, and one other whose name escapes me right now. Dave took the obligatory group photo and we hustled down the staircase to our waiting railfan window on an E train. Our first bit of "rare mileage" came as we clanked through the W. 4th connector tracks at slow speed. At 34th Street we were joined by Keystone Pete, who was intently watching for a crowd in the first car; he had no doubt that he had found those who he was seeking, although I wonder if he really knew what he was in for :-) An unknown TA employee (a supervisor?) rode with us for a while; before leaving, he handed each of us a card, obviously prepared for train operators, indicating the punch boxes and signal aspects used for routing E, F, and R trains through the 63rd Street tunnel. (I'll scan mine later and send it to Dave for posting somewhere on the site.) The tunnel was quite a nice ride, unmarked by graffiti and still maintaining a very new appearance - as BMTman noted in an earlier post, it's not yet dirtied up with steel dust. From there we rode to Roosevelt, where Dave left us in search of R142/R142As up in the Bronx, and exited fare control to view the entrance to the unused terminal station. This entrance has now been completely blocked up and fitted with a door, rather than simply being gated off; I would probably not have recognized it if Wayne hadn't known exactly where to look. We then took an R train back to Canal (past four stations where the "refrigerator tile" is being stripped and the original tile rehabbed - looks rather funny to see a small bulldozer on the platform, but that's what three of the stations had; two also had Bobcat loaders being used in debris removal) and walked through the bridge station. They were welding rail today so it really stunk. We then explored the J line station there and took that line to the magnificent ruin at Chambers. After a tour there, we headed through the passageway to the Brooklyn Bridge station, where High Street/Brooklyn Bridge departed for home. The remaining nine of us, seeing an opportunity, ducked into the last car of a 6 train and rode through City Hall loop before quickly exiting the station ahead of a suspicious lady conductor. After a quick tour of City Hall Park, Keystone Pete and John headed on their way and the seven of us remaining dined at the Blimpie and Pizza restaurant, bemoaning the lack of heypaul and his grill (with at least one participant wondering about the whereabouts of Pork, since he had the hankering for a bacon, ham, and pickled pigs feet sandwich). After lunch, Jr. and I took the 1 train back to South Ferry (where it appears they are doing a major cleanup of the inner loop station) and the 1430 boat - the Kennedy again - back to Staten Island and ultimately New Jersey. The others were last seen heading in the direction of the World Trade Center PATH station, destination New Jersey, for a trip on the HBLR - I assume Wayne will post on this later. All in all, an excellent trip!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
> where Dave left us in search of R142/R142As up in the Bronx
Ugh, what a nightmare. No R142's running on the #2 today. No #5 service between 149th/Grand Concourse and East 180th St. Wrong railing southbound on the #2 thru 149th/Grand Concourse. Headways were mighty slim. I got a few pictures from the Dyre Shuttle passing Unionport Yard, but that was it. There wasn't anything up on the Dyre test track either. I put some photos up in the proper sections already.
I saw two R142A trainsets on the #6, one southbound at 59th Street (for some reason it was running on the lower express level; couldn't see the car numbers but the A/C motor whine gave it away. I suppose it might have been a R142 set from the #2 running on the #5 for whatever reason), and another northbound at 125th Street.
I should have gone up the #6 instead of the #2.
-Dave
No wonder I could not find you. As I said, I tried to chatch up with you after the lunch. I took #5 redbird up to 149. Then waited for about 10 min for #2 uptown. Took it up to 241 looking out for you.
Then while coming back I thought "He may be on Dyre Line", so I got off at 180 and just missed Dyre Shuttle. Took the next one. I talked to the T/O all the way to Dyre. At Dyre took the next one out back to 180 St. Boarded 2 all the way to 96 (originally planned to get off at 110) but missed the stop because I was "teaching" an about 10-yr old kid, sharing the railfan window with me, about the tunnel, track work and singnals. Then I got back on 2 to 125, then took M100 bus to Lex. At that time it was getting dark, so I figured you are gone, so I took #5 redbird down to GCT. Went upstairs to grab Metro-North schedules and took Shuttle to TS. T/O for my train went out, I guess to the bathroom, and the C/R not knowing that he was not on board, announced and closed the door. 3 seconds later T/O comes and had to key-in homself.
At TS I took 3 to Penn. I had to get new LIRR schedules so there I went. Then walked through MSG and 32 st to PATH. Took JSQ-bound train to Newport and took, almost missing it, HBLR to Liberty State where my car was.
I intended to join your group at 10:45 AM. However, I just felt awful after doing my camcording on E train beginning from 8AM to 10:15AM.
After standing on an R32 E train roundtrip (#3487 to Queens and #3770 to WTC), I just did not feel right. I had to rush back to Penn Station to take an afternoon Amtrak train back home in Maryland.
I've had flu since last Sunday. Clearly I did not fully recover from it. After posting, I have to go to bed to rest.
Chaohwa
Chaohwa -
Sorry you were unable to join us - Oren had posted that you were coming to the City for a trip but we weren't entirely clear if it was ours or the one on the Rockaway line. Your health is more important than the subway, so take good care of it! We'll look forward to seeing you the next time you can join us.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My original plan is to camcord on the E roundtrip before joining your group. Therefore, I rode the 3 AM Amtrak train from Washington, DC to NY Penn at 6:40 AM.
I found out that was a huge mistake. First, I need more rest to do camcording, and the 3AM train doesn't allow me to do that. Second, I thought I had recovered from flu, but clearly I did not.
This trip is a great lesson for me. Health is number one, and then we can do other things we like.
Chaohwa
Camcording requires more body energy than taking photos. After taking a picture, you can sit down for a rest. However, camcording in front of a railfan window requires to stand for a long time. It is very exhausting.
But when you see what you camcord on your TV screen, that is the greatest joy you've ever had because it is so-called live, provided that the video is stable, else it is another frustration of videotaping.
About the quality of railfan window? Like the dirtiness and scratches? I don't really care about them because I cannot controll them. What I can control is make the video stable.
Chaohwa
We continued our journey from WTC west to New Jersey: on board for this leg: myself, FaxMan, RIPTA142HopeTunnel and Vernon M I believe.
After a pit stop we headed for WTC PATH station. We alighted on the Newark platform but no train was in it, so we changed tracks and took the Hoboken train, PA-4 #876 to Exchange Place. We got out just in time to see a northbound HBLR LRV leaving Exchange Place. So we bought tickets and settled in for a short wait. Along came the northbound LRV, #2029. This was to be our rolling home for the next 90 minutes. We went north to Pavonia-Newport and saw the new stations at Harborside Financial Center, Harsimus Cove and Pavonia-Newport. The route there is more serpentine, with an S curve north of Exchange Place, a very tight turn north of Harborside and an even more impossible one south of Harsimus Cove. This one looks to have a turning radius of ~100 feet and is rife with wheel noise. Only one track's in use up there. We doubled back and headed all the way out to WestSide Avenue. A nice run through the Jersey Central ROW. We headed back with FaxMan getting off at Liberty State Park, RIPTA142HopeTunnel getting off at Exchange Place and Vernon M continuing on to ride back to Bayonne. I got off at Pavonia and headed back into NYC via PATH, just barely making the 4:27 Babylon express.
A very enjoyable day, I hope we have more of these!
wayne
We may have passed each other on the HBLR and not known it - a friend and I went to Newark, but the City Subway wasn't running (oops - I should have made absolutely certain first - we'll have to do it during the week). The plan was to do the City Subway and then the HBLR, so we came back to Exchange Place and after taking some pictures on the park-on-the-pier, boarded the 3 PM HBLR at Exchange Place to Bayonne. We rode it down to the end of the line and back to Liberty State Park, changing there for a northbound to Newport. After the obligatory mall stop (she got toys for the cats) it was back to NYC on the PATH.
I just wish I could have been there. These excellent reports are some comfort though.
Simon
Swindon UK
It's like Docklands LR, it has the Kinkisharyo Multi-section (40,10,40 feet) unit and it is on ground level; some of it is street running. A nice system. You have to see that cuve near Harsimus Cove to believe it, it is that sharp.
wayne
All being well we can do a trip in November.
Simon
Swindon UK
After returning from Bayonne (nice fast ride), I rode the PATH a little, and sure enough, on a JSQ to 33 train the TO tripped a timed red just north of the wye leaving Grove St! I bring the TO's bad luck! Oh well, he got it running again after about 2 minutes. Returning to Manhattan, I rode the E,F & R twice each to Queens through the connector, doubling back via 53 or 60 St. Also gave directions to a few confused passengers. Didn't get home until 9:50.
Many thanks to you and the others for an interesting, informative trip!
Speaking of that entrance to the unused Roosevelt Ave. terminal, is it that set of double doors just at the top of the ramp? I saw those doors from inside the paid fare zone last October while transferring from the 7 to an F on my way back to Manhattan from Shea Stadium.
Yes it is.
wayne
All right, who here went in yesterday at around 5:10 PM? I saw someone who clearly was not a thug or vandal stare at the doors for about 2 minutes, gave a quick look around, and opened the door and went through. I was tempted to follow...
Has this person been seen since then?:-)
No, we were there at 11:30AM.
wayne
Not I, nor Jr. - we were back in New Jersey, posting away, by that time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse, sounds like a lot of FUN ! Which must have been made even better by the nice sized group that joined. You must do an official write up with some photos for the Field Trip section !!!!
Mr t__:^)
Well, the only photo taken was the one that Dave took of us at Occulus, so I guess the above post (with Wayne's addendum) will have to serve as the writeup. But I have finally managed to upload the scans of the card we were all given that has the signals and punch lineups... see my next post.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As promised, here are the scans of the signal/punch box cards we were given:
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For whatever reason, the scan didn't register, at least on my screen, but I have one of those cards. I have to say this though: we have a guy on the E with 30 years as a motorman. He is currently taking his entire vacation, and will retire soon, likely at the end of March. As a sidelight, once he is gone, I'll be the most senior man pounding the road on the E, an insult of my seniority and proof that I still don't know how to pick! Anyway, when we got those cards, he remarked to me: Gee Whiz, first time in 30 years someone ever gave me a line-up card! I really don't think I need one." I think that he could be told the 63rd St. line-ups and remember them without the card!
>>>As a sidelight, once he is gone, I'll be the most senior man pounding the road on the E, an insult of my seniority and proof that I still don't know how to pick!<<<
Oh I've already told you that ya don't know how to pick! :)
Four trips on the E? You don't need the T/O retiring to validate that!
For whatever reason, the scan didn't register...
Lousy server response time at my ISP... I'm having problems this morning too (only one came up), but the html is correct.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
recent on-time statistics for NJT from the Star Ledger 1-12-2001
First figure is am rush and second is pm rush(12/30/00-1/5/01)
Northeast Corridor...41.1, 67.3(NECL)
North Jersey Coast...46.4, 51.7(NJCL)
MidTOWN Direct.......46.9, 60.7
All of these use the Amtrak Right of way
The article states NJT blames Amtrak--NJ association of Rail Passengers and many passengers dont believe this.
NJT's poor performance continues--from their web site: One NJCL train today left NY Penn 50 minutes late!(and that is on a weekend schedule with hourly service!)
Amtrak dispatches the NEC and is more than willing to screw up a few thousand NJT comuters so that they can get one of their land barge trains a bit closer to being on time.
As much as Amtrak boosters love to moan about MN anmd the NH line, NJT and LIRR commuters have been taking it you-know-where from Amtrak for a few decades. That Amtrak can't run a railroad is obvious. That they screw up thousands of people's rush hours every day, isn't.
Oh, BTW, MN finally is getting rid of that awful triangle catenary below Stamford. It looks like they've got one track that's being converted over now - there are a few stretchwes that have been done. New poles for the interlockings are going up too. About time. I guess by this time next year they'll have at least one track converted.
I, for one, won't be crying the day that 60mph speed restrictions become a thing of the past onthe NH line.
Ummm ... please don't take offense, but NJT is a "tenant" ... in railroading the reality is the owner railroad gets clearance and Amtrak (route of the pointless arrow) is in dire need to keep their noses clean as congress ponders putting them entirely out of business.
NJT is in a position of running "as available" or they can build their own right of way. This has always been the way for tenants who use other companies' right of way on any railroad. The track1/2 crossing problem that was reported to affect one line could be solved by construction of a flying crossover to track 1 perhaps but NJT will only be able to solve many of these problems by constructing their own trunk routes. Otherwise, they're a guest and need to schedule around the landlord railroad rather than the other way around. Once again, no offense, this is simply reality.
What would happen if Congress were to dissolve Amtrak? Would the states have the option of taking over some assets? I guess the assets would belong to the federal government? Would it try to privatize the routes that make a profit (i.e. NEC)? I'm sure some states would be willing to pay to keep services going. North Carolina and Vermont to name two already subsidise Amtrak to run routes that it otherwise wouldn't, or at least not as frequently. I'm sure most of the long haul east-west routes would be shut down. Any thoughts?
Most likely scenario is that the route of the pointless arrow would be "Gonerailed" with the assets sold off to CSX and NS since NEC is also used by the remains of Gonerail. There is little profit in passenger service, something that's been a continuum since the very beginning. Congress *wants* another railroad to come in and provide passenger service - but this is truly a drug induced hallucination. Privatizing Amtrak is still something the repubs want to see, and with Shrub now at the throttle, the most likely scenario is what happened to PRR and NYNHH (NHRR) ... intercity would be dead.
Either the states purchase the ROW or they become tenants to a frieght line. Passenger service on freight lines is abysmal and this in turn puts the pressure on even more significantly for commuter lines to build and maintain their own, separate right of way. Since this is VERY expensive, it just isn't done. This is why I don't see NJT's situation getting any better and with traffic on the freight lines INCREASING north and south, it's going to get even worse for NJT on the mainlines irrespective of what Amtrak does.
Up here in Slekirk, we've seen a PHENOMENAL increase in trains over the past couple of years, mostly intermodal. And intermodals run on a very tight time table. Amtrak NEC's get sided for the intermodals to give you an idea of where NJT will stand.
dissolving ATK buys no benefits. despite all the free market drivel from the right NO passenger transport medium is profitable if any half honest accounting is done. If the airlines were forced to own and operate JFK LAG etc as well as the traffic control functions at FAA about two thirds of air travel would vaporize because ALL fares would skyrocket. Even the Free Congress Foundation folks(with whom I rarely agree on anything)have decided public money is okay for trains and transit.
Am I defending ATK's often lame behavior or performance? NOT. But some form of tax supported train system is IMHO a national neccesity. That said, I opt for improvement rather than demolition. As a 56 year old, I have (perhaps rosy) memories of how good it could be. I doubt I will live to see ATK or any other public entity equal the class A streamliners of the 50's and early 60's. OTOH late and over priced/misengineered (four inches!) as it is ACELA is Metroliner 3.0 and if it does what version 1 did for NY-Wash service, at least the NEC will approach a world class level.
BTW, out here in CA, its not perfect--but we have more frequent train service than since the 50's AND ridership is growing. The bi-level "California" cars have non reclining seats, but otherwise are pretty nice. And the snack service is adequate. (semi real coffee and tea-yea!) If current plans actually get implemented we will have a dozen runs a day on the Sacto-Oakland-San Jose line.
It's that that passenger rail is unprofitable, it's that the US style of slow speed, slow acceleration, infrequent, overweight, overcomplicated style of long distance trains are unprofitable. I can't imagine that a high speed frequent intercity service in the Northeast wouldn't be popular, but outside of NY to DC, none exists.
Example: Hartford to NY. I can beat a train from Hartford to New haven at almost any time of the day, no problem. If I stay around 80 or so, I can knock off the distance in about 1/2 an hour. Amtrak can't even begin to compete on that segment. If I don't get hung up on I-95, I can easily beat Amtrak to New Rochelle, and that's running a constant 70 - 75, withdrops to 60, 55, or 40 (work zones, yes, I'm one of those annoying people who slows for work zones, school zones, and residential streets). Once again, Amtrak can't comptete.
Why should I take the train? Amtrak's slow, infrequent, often unreliable (I've been on more than a few that broke down enroute), and expensive. And I don't enjoy planning my trip around a schedule, or dealing with Amtrak's "Call your congressmanm and bitch to them" attitude.
The US needs a real intercity rail system. Amtrak's not it, Acela's not it. Not even close.
Why kill Amtrak? Simple. Amtrak doesn't work. Amtrak has never worked. Amtrak never will work. Amtrak doesn't know which end is up, and they try to do everything. Freight, long distance, rail cruises, "high speed", intercity, commuter, etc. And they do none of it well.
It's time we started over with a clean sheet of paper. Hopefully Bush will have the guts to kill Amtrak that Clinton could never find.
With apologies to Santayana, those who refuse to learn from history condemn all of us to relive it.
AEK was designed to fail. The original legislation was written by lawyers working for UP and others. When they had pretty much settled on the deal they went shopping for pliant Congress members. Nixon's first head of ATK was supposed to orchestratye a 'graceful shutdown' of passenger service, thus freeing the RRs to run freight exclusively.
Unfortunately Americans kept showing up at stationw with green paper. Then our 'allies' in the mideast helped out by staging the oil embargo. Ridership soared. And if you think service sucks now, you should have ridden in the early 70's. SP crews would declare impossibility of fixing the AC on ex Santa Fe cars so the SF Zephyr would have no AC on half its coaches from Oakland to Denver. Then, magically the BN guys could fix things. PC trackage was so bad the axle driven gen sets would cut out because we going too slow sending cars into battery/ emergency mode--again no AC. But Americans kept showing up to ride trains despite all the naysayers. And they bugged their politicians. So we have this tug of war between the 'free market' ideologues who demand 'self sufficiency' for a passenger RR (something not achieved ANYWHERE) , the union stooges who managed to write laws such that ATK must pay huge severance bennies to laid off workers, and those of us who WANT to use trains for intercity travel. All that said, I too have "ATK horror stories", but killing ATK won't IMHO fix the problem, it will merely prevent me from traveling in my preferred manner. 'cause if we let this unelected shrub gut ATK, it will not be easily replaced by something better.
Glad somebody remembers what a farce Amtrak was in the 70's. I travelled cross country in the summer of 76 and winter of 77 and will verify to all the stories given. Yet as you say people still rode the trains. I have a lot of mixed feeling about Amtrak yet feel we still need such service, if not by ATK then under other auspices.Europe puts us to shame, even on regular trains [but then the population density warrants it, OTOH some of the US is even more dense.
I have for many years been frustrated by ATK. I find it galling to ever have to defend the fools--yet what else have we. As I said earlier I am old enough to remember real passenger trains. One of my ATK images from the late eighties is the "attendant" putting his cassette player headphones back in his ears as we slid out of Eugene on the Coast Starlight--excuse me you are at work! This and a thousand others, but I LIKE TO RIDE TRAINS.
And since actual profit--you know recovery of both operating and construction costs--simply does not happen, we need some system. In an abstract view, the purpose of any 'government' should include the facillitation of transportation--why we have Federal, State, etc highways, FAA, Corps of Engineers etc. Even if we were aesthetically challenged ebough to want to pave everything, there is not enough real estate to waste on single drivers. Forget the smog, just wasting the real estate on highways cuts revenues for other purposes as well as being ugly. And anyone paying attention should get the irony in the name Airbus Industrie. The dirty dog is as pleasant as most airlines these days. Okay, enough rant.
I can assure that what you saw on the Coast Starlight would not happen today. And if it would, the attendant would be fired. And the union couldn't save him.
(It's time we started over with a clean sheet of paper. Hopefully Bush will have the guts to kill Amtrak that Clinton could never find.)
The federal government pays for interstate highways with tax dollars, and state and local governments operate airports. Imagine if the federal government paid for the operation of the rail ROWs, and state and local government operated the stations? The airlines would fall over each other to get into the rail business in high traffic corridors.
The Northeast and Midwest have been ripped off by the FEDs for 50 years. We have fewer federal roads (vs. population) but more rails. The federal government owes us for the rails. If they meet their public responsibility for the ROW, than in places where AMTRAK is appropriate (ie. the West Coast, Northeast Corridor, central Midwest, perhaps elsewhere) it would be profitable, and you'd end the monopoly with private competition.
If Bush kills Amtrak it would never come back. Where traffic was high States would pick up the corridor services but elsewhere passenger service would be gone and dead forever. Rail travel will never be profitable and after Bush kills Amtrak do you think he'll ever want to spend money to give private companies a start? He'd probably pave the NEC to force ppl into card and make more money for his oil buddies.
Dubna won't kill Amtrak, Daddy couldn't kill Amtrak, Ronnie couldn't kill Amtrak. Why??
As Tip O'Neill wisely noted "All Politics is local". Congress has to go back to the locals every 2 and 6 years. So ATK will be around for a long time to come.
/*If Bush kills Amtrak it would never come back.*/
If intercity rail doesn't come back, it'll only be because either there's no market demand, or industry or the government is too stupid to break from 100+ year old attitudes about rail operations to bring it back.
/*Where traffic was high States would pick up the corridor services but elsewhere passenger service would be gone and dead forever.*/
And what's wrong with that? Is it not obvious that in certain places and applications, rail is obsolete? why doesn't the government operate a national stagecoach line, or the pony express, or a national telegraph service? Simple - they're all technologies that were obsoleted by better technologies. That's what's happening with a lot of rail in the US, but for some reason, people don't want to let go.
The other trouble is, rail equipment in the US hasn't majorly evolved in the last 100 years. Locomotives are still overweight and low powered, passenger cars are still low level, narrow doored, slow loading, and overweight. Service is infrequent, stations are still manned by half a dozen people, Disability access off the NEC is a joke, cab signals aren't everywhere, single track lines are. No other form of transportation has stayed so staic over the last century. Cars have improved by leaps and bounds, aircraft have improved by leaps and bounds, busses have too. All the innovation is rail happens in Europe - it's doesn't happen here. That's why US rail equipment is often one off, custom built, and expensive.
/*Rail travel will never be profitable*/
For some reason, no method of moving people has proven profitable in recent years. Oddly, BMT, among others made a profit at one time though. IMHO, I'd like to see the FAA's dual mandate, etc, removed from the picture also. But, despite the problems flying today, a few hours on a plane going cross country is much more desireable for most people than 2 or 3 days on Amtrak.
/*and after Bush kills Amtrak do you think he'll ever want to spend money to give private companies a start?*/
Amtrak's a roadblock to real rail development in the US. Why? because it provides the worst level of service possible - just good enough to get riders. That means any improvement ideas get funneled through them, but none ever really happen, or suceed, because Amtrak can't run a RR. Look at the current 10 billion dollar bailout kicking around Washington now. Amtrak supporters wont' even call it what it is (ASn Amtrak bailout). No, they call it a "High Speed Rail" investment act, even though 10% can be wasted on traditional slow speed trains, and 110mph service isn't even high speed, and not easiliy sustainable off the NEC anyway.
/*He'd probably pave the NEC to force ppl into card and make more money for his oil buddies.*/
Oh grow up. If the Clintons and their liberal pals are so gosh darn great for rail, why are we even having this discussion (Other than Amtrak's incompetant at best management). Come on, where's that big liberal influx of mnoney that was going to fix a lot of transit systems in the US? I mean, let's face it, their are a number of glaring holes in the LIRR (Lack of systemwide electrification, lack of a third track to Hicksville, ageing MU fleet, severe overcrowding), NJT (Ageing MU fleet, overcrowding, infrequency, delays), Metro-North (Desperate need for more MUs, lack of New Haven line catenary replacement, poor interlockings, the Stamford station mess), Septa (Everything), and the NYCTA. None of these has substantially changed over the Clinton years, yet ridership has grown and grown and grown. And environmentally, There hasn't been such as explosion in excessivly oversides vehicles since the 50's. And that happened durring the Clinton years.
Everyone's acting like Bush will dynamite every raiul system on the planet, but that's simply not going to happen. And killing amtrak wouldn't be noticed by the majority of rail riders anyway. Amtrak's ridership is tiny compaired to the LIRR, NJT, MN, Metra, Septa, MBTA, and a few other systems outr there. If Amtrak goes, nobody off the NEC will even notice, or care. And the NEC's not going to go anywhere, because even with Amtrak's shit management, it's simply too important and too sucessful to die.
If intercity rail doesn't come back, it'll only be because either there's no market demand, or industry or the government is too stupid to break from 100+ year old attitudes about rail operations to bring it back.
Oh, I forgot, the Government runs and controls all the railroads.
Simple - they're all technologies that were obsoleted by better technologies.
Who said long distance trains are obselete? Granted airplanes are faster and more popular, but there is a market for long distance trains. Long distance bus companies make a profit. Most rail lines run in weather that makes airplanes fall out of the sky. Vacationers and railfans will always ride the trains. Most importantly long distance trains can be thought of as many short distance trains. For places that do not have an airport trains can be a much better alternative than a bus. Also with the current state of airline service the level of comfort provided on long distance trains makes airlines look like the outmoded technology. I think Amtrak's big problem is prices. Many people I talk to fly simply because it is cheaper. If Amtrak was a better deal they would probably take the train on long distance trips.
Locomotives are still overweight and low powered,
4200hp is pretty powerful and I'd like to see Diesel locomotives do better for power and robustness.
passenger cars are still low level narrow doored, slow loading, and overweight.
Many can accomidate hi and lo level platforms. Slow loading? Since when is Amtrak a commuter RR dealing with crush load crowds? Overweight? You mean safe.
Service is infrequent, stations are still manned by half a dozen people,
So you want station services to be shitty also?
Disability access off the NEC is a joke,
Most things built before the ADA is a joke.
cab signals aren't everywhere, single track lines are.
I thought you wanted Amtrak to make a profit. This is how freight RR's achieved that lofty goal.
No other form of transportation has stayed so staic over the last century. Cars have improved by leaps and bounds, aircraft have improved by leaps and bounds, busses have too.
That might have been true between 1920 and 1970, but since then the rail transport industry has advanced by leaps and bounds. CTC, intermodal freight, de-regulation has all occured recently.
All the innovation is rail happens in Europe - it's doesn't happen here. That's why US rail equipment is often one off, custom built, and expensive.
You seem to be focus on the rolling stock end of innovation. My Scotrail friend (you remember Alex) has been telling me UK rail horror stories because they can't stop operating under 1890's proceedure. Rule 261 is unheard of, manual signal boxes are everywhere and there isn't even a proceedure for wrong railing around MoW work. The trains are cancled and the passengers bussed. Do you call that inovation?
For some reason, no method of moving people has proven profitable in recent years.
Freight rail transport has been profitable. They have to built and pay taxes on the RoW and rolling stock. If people had a reason to use Amtrak often it might be profitable in combination with its new freight hauling bussiness. The problem is if Amtrak is killed and most of its trains go away, it will be so expensive to bring the service back that even if throngs of people would use trains it would be cost prohibitive.
Amtrak's a roadblock to real rail development in the US. Why? because it provides the worst level of service possible - just good enough to get riders.
No, cost and alternatives are the roadblocks to the devolopment. Also name me one other industry that dosen't provide the lowest level of service to get customers. Its called profit maximazation. The most profit for the least money. It how companies are profitable.
Oh grow up. If the Clintons and their liberal pals are so gosh darn great for rail, why are we even having this discussion
Because the president has no real power over this issue, the congress does. The republicans have been in charge of congress so no transit money. If the president's party is in power he can urge them to to take one action or another. Bush has to power to kill Amtrak or save Amtrak. Clinton could only veto a killing of Amtrak.
You know what the problem is? Right wing anti government zealots want all the tax money to go to the pentagon corporate welfare war machine WE HAVE 10 TIMES THE MILITARY POWER OF ANY OTHER NATION ON THE PLANET. the cold war is over, the biggest threat is if that BOGUS idiot(Bu$h) provokes a new alliance of adversaries with his STUPID missle defense system. Heck, If I wanted to go after Uncle Sam, I'd put a device in an old rusty freighter and sail it near any coastal city KABOOM No, what the Military needs is to prepare for those kind of attacks. any country who has the true ICBM capability needed to attack CONUS is certainly rational enough to fear mutually assured destruction (Our EXISTING nuclear weapons). Morale is another issue:
We are not the world's policeman, we will fight for our interests and those of our allies but we can't stick our nose into every "humanitarian" situation around the world. furthermore, military pay is far too low -- The troops need a raise, Restoring the draft is another thing which should be done. The people who join the military today tend to be Republicans (8to1) A partisan military will wreck America as surely as one which is too weak. A draft of all 18 year olds with NO Deferments and a system of national service for the overflow (a lottery would determine who goes into the military and who goes into national service. and finally, Military spending and infrastructure is concentrated in the South with very little of the northeast's tax dollars being spent here. So, the bulk of the needed downsizing should target the South. Just Republicans rewarding Republicans. It's gotta stop. $700 toilet seats are the real budget busters, not Amtrak.
RIGHT
and for a fraction of the pentagon sewer fund we could have the whole Second System.
Covert operations are cheaper than wars. I think they are cool.
Screw you. I don't want to join the military. I have enough on my hands with college and getting a good job. You want to reduce military spending, but you want to raise pay and then have to pay millions of more Americans that bloated wage to be soldiers that sit around on their asses because unless China declares war our new doctorine wouldn't get us involved. The most cost effective way to train soldiers is to elinst them for 2-3 years. Do you want to tie up the youth of this country for 2-3 years while theyr are at their most productive. Do you know how that will impact the GNP and the IRS intake?
BTW didn't anyone tell you that the $700 toilet seats are used to cover up the costs of covert and seceret operations?
...have to pay millions of more Americans that bloated wage to be soldiers that sit around on their asses...
I usually try to avoid responding to off-topic political threads here, but "bloated" wages?? Hardly... A large number of enlisted servicemen are forced to use food stamps just to pay for food, even though they live on (often crappy) base housing and have full healthcare coverage. I basically grew up as a military brat, so I remember that life well.
I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree with your (or with John Blair's) basic arguments -- the last thing I want to do is provoke more off-topic political ranting -- but I can assure you that wages for low-level members of the armed forces are anything but bloated, and they do far more than sit on their asses all day.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Actually I forgot a part of my post. but I will first respond the the food stamps charge. Only a very small % need food stamps and it is mostly because of personal choices usually involving family size. Soliders get free room and low/no cost board as well as many other perks that is not limited to low cost travel and low/no cost personal supplies.
I just had a friend get out of the Army and we discussed the Army at some legnth. Basically for most soldiers Army consists of sitting around, physical training and doing lame, boring, dull, tedious, repeditive tasks. Most people figure that the Army is all fighting and learning to kill, but 7 of 8 soldiers are assigned to support positions where they do nothing but mend uniforms and patch tarps all day. If we went to war, my friend's roll in the big scheem of things was to sit in a module strapped to the back of a HMMWV in a space smaller than a motorman's cab for hours on end and then tell someone if the machine taking up most of the space detected some sort of chemical weapon. They didn't teach him to be a technition, or any special chemical weapons training or how to get out and detect chemical weapons or how to treat or nutralize chemical weapons. He just watched the machine and told someone if it did something. He got a medical discharge because all the PT destroyed his feet. So for wasting 2 years of his life we gets a lifetime of free medical treatment at substandard facilities. If I was in the Army and that's what I had to do, I'd love to do it in some forigen country. Maybe if the Army wanted more people to enlist they should make the jobs more exciting or useful. Even if you want to join the reserves of the national guard you have to spend 6 full months in regular active duty training. If they could work that all into weekends or weeks so many more people would join. The hard core soldiers would train the hardest and get the primo, action packed jobs. The weekend warriors would fix tarps and uniforms and party harty after they were done.
And I didn't mean theor pay is currently bloated. If you drafted everyone and stoped using the military for militarying overseas you'd have many more people doing much less work getting more pay. That is my definition of bloated.
/*Oh, I forgot, the Government runs and controls all the railroads.*/
Well, with the US DOT, in te form of Amtrak, as competition, what's the incentive for XYZ railroad to run an intercity service? Amtrak can just use their "running rights" to force their way into the market and pop you out of business.
Oh yes, and as for private industry running passenger, you forgot BNSF and UP contracted for running Metra, and the Suzzy Q running On Track in Syracuse (Im think they get a tax break for that). Oh, and Herzog (?) I think is another private co running passenger rail.
/*Who said long distance trains are obselete?*/
The American public did. They voted with their dollars and feet.
/*Granted airplanes are faster and more popular, but there
is a market for long distance trains.*/
A very small one.
/*Long distance bus companies make a profit.*/
Greyhound's been in / out of trouble for a while now.
/* Most rail lines run in weather that makes airplanes fall out of the sky.*/
And NJT and Amtrak were screwed by a downed tree on a downed wire the other month. So much for the PRR's redundant power system. Oh wait, tha'ts right, it's not redundant becauser it's unique to the entire US. Whoops.
/*Vacationers and railfans will always ride the trains.*/
That's a huge market, justifying millions of federal tax dollars, and millions of state tax dollars.
People like hay rides too, Should the government for Amhaystack too?
People like to jump out of planes - Amdive?
Hell, I'd love to take a few 1/4 mile passes on a drag bike. I'm not only one too. Government run drag strips (Amdrag? Amstrip?)?
/*Most importantly long distance trains can be thought of as many short distance trains.*/
Than why not operate them as such? Imagine if the LIRR had only one train that just looped around the system all day. Do you think there'd be 200,000 daily riders?
/*For places that do not have an airport trains can be a much better alternative than a bus.*/
Sure, at 3am on a tuesday, when the once-a-week Amtrak comes through.
/*Also with the current state of airline service the level of comfort provided on long distance trains makes airlines
look like the outmoded technology.*/
Yes, trains CAN provide a level of comfort, but Amtrak's doing jack s*** to utilize what, IMHO, is an ENORMOUS market for high speed intercity rail. This problem didn't pop up, it's been comming for decades. That Amtrak wasn't ready for it goes to show how inept thair management is.
/*I think Amtrak's big problem is prices.*/
IMHO, it's speed, frequency, and reliability.
/*If Amtrak was a better deal they would probably take the train on long distance trips.*/
Lets see, Im' going from NY to Washington (the state). I can take an 8 hour plane. Or a 3 day train. Yeah, if I save $50, I'm gonna take the train. Get real.
/*4200hp is pretty powerful and I'd like to see Diesel locomotives do better for power and robustness.*/
That's 4200 at the prime mover's shaft, minus the 20% transmission loss, with no overload capacity at all. Electric's BIG advantage is BIG overload capacity. And 4200hp isn't much by modern standards anyway.
/*Many can accomidate hi and lo level platforms*/
Low level platforms are slow. Ever wait 3 min for the little old lady with 2 bags to get on the train?
/*Slow loading? Since when is Amtrak a commuter RR dealing with crush load crowds?*/
Since when does an intercity train have to sit for 5 - 10 minutes at a station? On even a medium haul run, chopping 3 minutes at every stop can add up - quick.
/*Overweight? You mean safe.*/
No, I mean overweight. The LIRR's M-1s meet all FRA requirements (includeing, I believe 800,000 lbs buff strength), and weigh a remarkable 92,000 lbs. That's engineering. Imagine an AEM-7 pulling 10 of those - it'd out accelerate a 6 car Amfleet, maybe even better. I bet without traction equipment, an M-1 could be stripped to 80,000 lbs. That's almost half the weight of an Amfleet. That saves money, wear and tear, and lowers costs. And lower costs make it all the easier to improve service.
/*So you want station services to be shitty also?*/
Come on. Does Hartford *really* need 3 full time people manning the station? For the dozen or so people that get on/off there every train.
You ever hear the joke about why the department of agriculture employes was crying? It's cause his farmer died.
/*I thought you wanted Amtrak to make a profit. This is how freight RR's achieved that lofty goal.*/
Cab signals are widely regarded as safety equipment, and should be standard on *all* trains and locomotives outside the yard. That, along with proper design of interlockings, and sideings, and use of derails, etc, is how you prevent accidents and deaths. Not by turning trains into tanks.
/*That might have been true between 1920 and 1970, but since then the rail transport industry has
advanced by leaps and bounds. CTC, intermodal freight, de-regulation has all occured recently.*/
Uh....
Where's the large scale electrification, widescale use of AC traction, DMU operation, concrete ties, cab signals, ATP, high power locomotives, lightweight equipment? Show me a US RR running high speed double deckers. I mean 180mph, not 80. Show me trains being parted en route in under 5 minutes. Show me water cooled traction motors. Light rail vehicles with near floor to ceiling windows, and super low platform loading. Show me modern, high speed catenary, moveable frog switches, short high speed (100+ mph) EMU trains, passive tilt. Show me a cab signal system in the US that not only tells you how fast you can go, but how fast you should be going by the next signal, and how far you are away from it. Most of this stuff is dreamy futuristic to US rail operations. It's reality overseas.
/*You seem to be focus on the rolling stock end of innovation. My Scotrail friend (you remember
Alex) has been telling me UK rail horror stories because they can't stop operating under 1890's
proceedure. Rule 261 is unheard of, manual signal boxes are everywhere and there isn't even a
proceedure for wrong railing around MoW work. The trains are cancled and the passengers bussed.
Do you call that inovation?*/
So? That stuff exists in the US. And anyway, British rail ops are sepperate from the rest of Europe. They're kinda weird over there ;)
/*Freight rail transport has been profitable.*/
That's nice. I'm not a box car. I mean, I'm kind a bit bigger than I want to be :( but I'm not a boxcar.
/* If people had a reason to use Amtrak often it might be profitable in combination with its new freight hauling bussiness.*/
Amtrak's the National Railroad PASSENGER Corporation. They arent' a freight RR, and shouldn't be allowed to evolve into one. The Government created a freight RR, and it was called Conrail. And it did very well, ultimately (opionions about electric ops and the NY area deleted)
/*The problem is if Amtrak is killed and most of its trains go away, it will be so expensive to bring the service back that even if throngs of people would use trains it would be cost prohibitive.*/
If throngs of people, even 1/2 what fly, were going to ride, any RR executive with 1/2 a brain would jump for it. the trouble is, RR execs are missing brains. It took until last year for CN to realize that if they made their trains as fast as trucks, they'd get more traffic. We're not talking Einstiens here.
/*Also name me one other industry that dosen't provide the lowest level of service to get customers. Its called profit maximazation. The
most profit for the least money. It how companies are profitable.*/
Funny. The bike shop I go to goes out of their way to provide great service. As a result, they're doing quite well. I'm not aware of any Harley dealers on LI where I have to schedule bike work a few weeks in advance to get it in. Yeah, washing it off, doing the job right, staying open after hours, etc, etc costs, but take a wild guess where I go for work, even when I'm up in CT.
Serivce sells. And it grows a customer base. I'm sure you have your favorite fast food joint out of all the ones around, and I'm sure it's not because they can cook a better batch of fries that all the other ones in that chain.
If you think service means nothing, then you're not awake.
/* Bush has to power to kill Amtrak or save Amtrak. Clinton could
only veto a killing of Amtrak.*/
And if Amtrak goes, nobody will even notice. Maybe the Acela express sets will be sold for scrap, but the NEC will be around. I'm sure there's at least one person with VC backing who'd LOVE to get their hands on it.
There's a market for rail in the US. But private industry doesn't like competing with the government.
I can see plenty of scenarios where one would want to get into the rail biz, but with Amtrak as a competitior, with their cozy FRA relationship, etc, why bother?
And if you don't think people are willing to ante up for this stuff - look at the dot com blitz. Passenger rail is a MUCH better investment than 99% of the dot coms (soon to be dead coms) out there.
what's the incentive for XYZ railroad to run an intercity service?
Certainly not profits. Investing in more freight will return far more than investing in passenger even if both return a profit.
Oh yes, and as for private industry running passenger, you forgot BNSF and UP contracted for running Metra,
UP and BNSF provide staff and maintainence only. All of their costs are covered Metra. Its like saying Shore Line East is run by Amtrak. If Metra went away UP and BNSF would drop the service faster than you can say "de-regulation".
They voted with their dollars and feet.
The voted in the face of low fuel prices and convienent air travel. Now the tide is turning.
And NJT and Amtrak were screwed by a downed tree on a downed wire the other month.
EVERY TIME there is a fog or a T-storm or a snow storm airports close completely. Amtrak is only stopped by freak infrastructure failures. BTW the last time a checked airplanes had mechinical problems to.
That's a huge market, justifying millions of federal tax dollars, and millions of state tax dollars.
Those were 2 examples. There are many groups of people who enjoy trains. Most people prefer ome mode rides. The only way the public will ride is if you can get there from here. Amtrak learned in 1994 that by cutting n services you get an n squared reduction in revenue.
Yes, trains CAN provide a level of comfort, but Amtrak's doing jack s*** to utilize what, IMHO, is an ENORMOUS market for high speed intercity rail. This problem didn't pop up, it's been comming for decades. That Amtrak wasn't ready for it goes to show how inept thair management is.
You keep touting about hi-speed rail. Well tell me when you can find the magical money pot to make it happen. This country is too big for Europe style hi-speed rail. However, as air travel gets worse and worse travelers will tolerate any trip that is under 24 hours. This is because even traveling by air will mean a day's inventment. At that point take a train where you can get some quiet time and a roomy place to sleep.
Lets see, Im' going from NY to Washington (the state). I can take an 8 hour plane. Or a 3 day train. Yeah, if I save $50, I'm gonna take the train. Get real.
Change Washington to Chicago and the answer is yes. Traveling wastes a day anyway so why not take a train.
That's 4200 at the prime mover's shaft, minus the 20% transmission loss, with no overload capacity at all. Electric's BIG advantage is BIG overload capacity. And 4200hp isn't much by modern standards anyway.
All US diesel power ratings are power available at the rail, not at the crankshaft. Again I ask you to take out your magical money pot to electrify the whole nation. Also if you look at diesels in other countries, ours are much more powerful.
Low level platforms are slow. Ever wait 3 min for the little old lady with 2 bags to get on the train?
I've waited 3 min for the little old lady with 2 bags to get on the train at a hi-level platform. Only commuters rush. Long distance passengers take their time.
The LIRR's M-1s meet all FRA requirements (includeing, I believe 800,000 lbs buff strength), and weigh a remarkable 92,000 lbs.
I thought everybody hated the M-1's. I'm also sure you could rig a sardine can to meat FRA standards, but I wouldn't want to ride in it.
Come on. Does Hartford *really* need 3 full time people manning the station? For the dozen or so people that get on/off there every train.
Have you ever see the crowds they get during thanksgiving? Also they need to help arrange alternate transportation for those people who get on the S/B Vermonter instead of the N/B Vermonter.
Cab signals are widely regarded as safety equipment, and should be standard on *all* trains and locomotives outside the yard. That, along with proper design of interlockings, and sideings, and use of derails, etc, is how you prevent accidents and deaths. Not by turning trains into tanks.
Do you know how you make things safe and cost effective? You make every thing inside yard limits and run all trains at restricted speed. Nobody is killed or injured when the trains are traveling 20 mph & prepared to stop w/in vision. If you think this is a joke freight RR have made millions running by trains slower.
Most of this stuff is dreamy futuristic to US rail operations. It's reality overseas.
Do you know what else is a reality overseas? State ownership and massive subsudy of all rail services. The amount of innovation that US Railroads have put into cutting costs and workers has been simply breathtaking. They are probably running twice the number of trains per track mile with 1/4 the work force. That's innovation!
That's nice. I'm not a box car. I mean, I'm kind a bit bigger than I want to be :( but I'm not a boxcar.
Unfortunitly this country is based on profit and positive gains. People are always talking about how the US Govt. funds airports and highways. I think that the economic benifit created by free access to highways and lower cost air travel has easily paid back the tax money used to fund it with tax money created by economic activity. Money for a purely passenger Amtrak could probably return more social welfare if used on roads or airports or freight RR's. If Amtrak can make more money by hauling freight and filling a niche neglected by fregiht RR's its social benifit meeter can creep further into the black.
BTW Conrail became profitable after it ditched its electrifacation ( unfortunitly :( ).
If throngs of people, even 1/2 what fly, were going to ride, any RR executive with 1/2 a brain would jump for it. the trouble is, RR execs are missing brains. It took until last year for CN to realize that if they made their trains as fast as trucks, they'd get more traffic. We're not talking Einstiens here.
You'll never get that big a shift. What will happen is you'll get a proportion that will make the current system profitable, but a "fron sractch" system un-profitable. Furthermore, the best way to get rail ridership is to have a pleasent rail experiance spread via personal experiance and word of mouth. If we get rid of Amtrak and passenger service goes away nobody will ever think of a train as anything but a commuting tool. At that point passenger rail service will be up shit's creek.
Serivce sells. And it grows a customer base. I'm sure you have your favorite fast food joint out of all the ones around, and I'm sure it's not because they can cook a better batch of fries that all the other ones in that chain.
Service might sell, but rest assured that your bike shop won't spend an extra $1 on service unless it would bring in $1.01 in revenue. I think Amtrak service is great, you think it sucks, but not matter what we think some accountant is calculating the maximizing rate of Amtrak service right now.
There's a market for rail in the US.
Yeah, the market is infrequent land crusies. Woo hoo.
i>But private industry doesn't like competing with the government.
I can see plenty of scenarios where one would want to get into the rail biz,
Name One.
but with Amtrak as a competitior, with their cozy FRA relationship, etc, why bother?
They'd better get used to it. If Amtrak goes all that will be left is STATE run commuter agencies. Heck, if the LIRR with its 90 million riders a year can't come close to turning a profit how the hell will any long haul railroad.
And if you don't think people are willing to ante up for this stuff - look at the dot com blitz. Passenger rail is a MUCH better investment than 99% of the dot coms (soon to be dead coms) out there.
What type of start up could raise the billions required for a passenger rail system?
If Amtrak goes it will be a political free-for-all with states grabbing what they can get. Metro-North will be Metro North. PennDoT will run KeyStone service and MARC and VRE will still be around. VRE will probably start running to Richmond. SEPTA will be SEPTA and SLE will probably pick up the Springfield Line. I would look at NJT aquiring ownership of the NEC north of Trenton and the MTBA getting the line to Providence. ConnDoT might even pick up the Shore Line and Metro North would probably run up to Albany. California corridor trains would run under the State as would NC corridor trains. Cascades trains would run under WashDOT and ORDot. You'd also see some MidWest trains being run by some regional agency. I wouldn't be surprised to see Airlines buying Amtrak equipment and then scrapping it. The government wouldn't care because it would be so hot to ditch the stuff. You might get some private company to run NE corridor trains IF it could fit them in between NJT and ConnDOT trains (they now are the owners). In the end if you wanted to get anywhere you'd have to play commuter RR hop scotch while the Airlines and bus companies laughed all the way to the bank.
Mike, are you aware at all what the operational costs of the typical jet airliner are? They cost 10 - 50+ million to BUY. For every minute they're on the ground, they LOSE MONEY. Thery're VERY maintenance intensive. Engine repair alone is VERY expensive. Airlines turn planes as fast as possible because they have no choice. Any plane that's not in the air is a money loser. Jet engines burn fuel at a rate that makes an SUV look like an Insight. Constantly. Inspections are carried out often, critical parts are replaced at certain times regardless of condition. All maintenance and parts are traceable. Very traceable. A "renewal" part that arrives in a box with a crushed corner doesn't even get opened, it gets sent back to the supplier. The amount of paperwork involved with even simple parts is staggering, and the amount of work involved with their installation is staggering too. Bagge handling is expensive, sterwardesses are expensive, pilots are VERY expensive. Pilots get trained, checked out on multimillion dollar simulators that cost a LOT of money to run and maintain. Everyone moans about airline delays, but the airlines hate delays too. They cost a LOT of money. The reason why they hand our frequent flyer miles and free trips when things get clogged up is because it's cheap. An empty seat on a plane is a money loser. A big one. Airlines are insured. They've got to be ready for the worst. They get sued over everything.
And yet, every year, new airlines start up, old ones die, and people invest in the industry.
People constantly complain about the federal subsides on air travel, yet they forget that without them, there would be no air travel. It's too damm expensive to go it alone.
Still think passenger rail is a money loser?
Airline startups buy old crap equipment and are very dodgey when it comes to service and maintainence. Jet fuel is one of the more inexpensive fuels and planes could run on peanut oil if they had to. Also don't forget that all passenger planes do a brisk bussiness hauling mail and express in the left over baggage space (sound like someone we know?). If you want to start an airline you basically have to buy an airplane and then pay variable costs. Because an aircraft has a high re-sale value a bank will be glad to lend you the money for it because they can always reposess the aircraft and sell it. Most initial railroad costs involve conctruction of the RoW. That money is sunk, gone for good, down the toilet. If your bussiness fails all the crap you built is abandonned. If you spend billions on a high speed rail system and nobody rides it (which is a very good possibility) that's it, you're out everything. All that's left is a home for the weeds and teens drinking beer.
I say again if the LIRR with 90 million riders can't come close to turning a profit then no pure passenger RR ever will (with current trends extending).
/*Certainly not profits. Investing in more freight will return far more than investing in passenger even if both return a profit.*/
So what? Are you stuck in the maximize profit trap, or are you providing a service that, if done right, could grow, expand, and make even more money in the long term. Moving people isn't cheasp, but moving them by train isn't the most expensive way, by far.
/*UP and BNSF provide staff and maintainence only. All of their costs are covered Metra.*/
But, they're in it. If it were such a huge loser, they wouldn't be.
/*If Metra went away UP and BNSF would drop the service faster than you can say "de-regulation".*/
Maybe, maybe not.
/*The voted in the face of low fuel prices and convienent air travel. Now the tide is turning.*/
No, it's not. Gas is getting cheaper again, and the airlines will ultimately sort their troubles out. Amtrak gets hit by oil prices too. Sucks to be tied to petrolium.
/*EVERY TIME there is a fog or a T-storm or a snow storm airports close completely. Amtrak is only stopped by freak infrastructure failures. BTW the last time a checked airplanes had mechinical
problems to.*/
Freak failure? A tree falling on a single wire knocking out the busiets trackage in the US is NOT a freak failure. It's a badly designed system. Anyone can tell you having a single point of failure is a BAD thing. Apparently, Amtrak chose to ignore that. Thousands get screwed as a result..
/* Amtrak
learned in 1994 that by cutting n services you get an n squared reduction in revenue. */
No, they haven't. They've not bought new equipment and increased service on a large scale. Instead, they proposed a slew of hopeless long distance trains, and raised fares on the NEC. Typical bean counter MBA factory logic.
/*You keep touting about hi-speed rail. Well tell me when you can find the magical money pot to make it happen.*/
Well, amtrak isn't finding it either. I think a logical start is a frequent, medium (80 - 110 mph) speed DMU operated service, to get people to take a fresh look at rail. Get cash flowing in, improve the ROW, and prepare to electrify and up speeds to 125 - 200mph, where practical / desireable.
But first start by popping 2 and 3 car high acceleration, lightweight, cheap trains off every 1 hour or less.
/*This country is too big for Europe style hi-speed rail.*/
No, it's too big for a national coast to coast system. But for selected areas, HSR makes sense.
/*However, as air travel gets worse and worse travelers will tolerate any trip that is under 24 hours.*/
Doubtful. I've flown in recent years, in bad weather, and not gone through hell. IMHO, the aireline's troubles are being overblown. Part of it is everyone wants to leave at 8am.
/* This is because even traveling by air will mean a day's inventment. At that point take a train where you can get some quiet time and a roomy place to sleep.*/
And waste another day? Today, you have to be there yesterday, or you're dead.
Not in anyone's biggest dreams will rail ever be a serious competition to trips over 500 milers, and even then, to be serious, it's going to have to average upwards of 80 - 100 mph, includeing stops. Totally feasable with todays' technology.
/*Change Washington to Chicago and the answer is yes. Traveling wastes a day anyway so why not take a train.*/
Maybe, just MAYBE, if you can offer a reliable, 12 hour, overnight service, you can get this market. But it's a stretch.
/*All US diesel power ratings are power available at the rail, not at the crankshaft.*/
Since when? AFAIK, US locomotives are rated by prime movers.
/*Again I ask you to take out your magical money pot to electrify the whole nation.*/
there are, at most, probbably 10,000 or so track miles that would be worth electrifying. Germany alone has more electric miles than that.
/*Also if you look at diesels in other countries, ours are much more powerful.*/ And much heavier, and achive much lower HP:weight ratios.
/* Only commuters rush. Long distance passengers take their time.*/
Sorry, but when you travel, you travel to get there. Not wait around all day. Like it or not, speed is essentile in today's world.
/*I thought everybody hated the M-1's. I'm also sure you could rig a sardine can to meat FRA standards, but I wouldn't want to ride in it.*/
Conceptually, the M-1 is a beautiful design, it's just the implementation that needs work. It's probbably the best laid out single level rail car in North America, and it's a beautifully light design, that's proven to holds up under brutal conditions. If Budd was able to hit the same kind of home run with the Metroliners, rail in the northeast would be VERY different today.
/* Have you ever see the crowds they get during thanksgiving?*/
Yes, I've dealt with Amtrak's version of hell.
/* Also they need to help arrange alternate transportation for those people who get on the S/B Vermonter instead of the N/B Vermonter.*/
No, they don't. If people are too dumb to get on the right train, that's their problem.
/*If you think this is a joke freight RR have made millions running by trains slower. */
And they've lost untold millions, no BILLIONS more because of this. In fact, Canadian National realized this last year and started running select trains on schedules that are on par with trucks. Traffic gre 11% and 2/3rds of those new customers were TRUCK customers.
Speed sells. Nobody advertises having the slowest anything.
/*They are probably running twice the number of trains per track mile
with 1/4 the work force. That's innovation! */
No. Even the NEC is low traffic compaired to a European mailine. Again - show me a US railroad running with 90 seconds between trains. No freight RR on in the US even begins to approach that level of traffic. The NEC and the LIRR barely do.
/*BTW Conrail became profitable after it ditched its electrifacation ( unfortunitly :( ). */
Actually, I believe Amtrak kicked them off the NEC. I bet the E44s could outpull any diesel of their day, and probbably give GM and GE's best a run for their money today.
/*You'll never get that big a shift. What will happen is you'll get a proportion that will make the current system profitable, but a "fron sractch" system un-profitable.*/
There's really not much new rail that would need to be laid, and even then, the ROWs are out there and owned. With the single tracking of lots of RRs, there's space to build passenger tracks next to freight. in places.
/*Furthermore, the best way to get rail ridership is to have a pleasent rail experiance spread via personal experiance and word of
mouth.*/
No, the way to get ridership is to make train travel a useful tool. If it's slow, infrequent, and unreliable, it's not useful, and therefore people don't ride it.
/*If we get rid of Amtrak and passenger service goes away nobody will ever think of a train as anything but a commuting tool. At that point passenger rail service will be up shit's creek.*/
Are commuters not passengers? In fact, commuter rail has grown by leaps and bounds since the 70's. That people are looking to rail as a commuter tool just shows how well rail has served this application. And Amtrak's had almost nothing to do with that.
/*Service might sell, but rest assured that your bike shop won't spend an extra $1 on service unless it would bring in $1.01 in revenue.*/
And for the last 20 years, it has. Hey, listen, there's like a million harley shops on Long Island. There's a few in the Hartford Area. One gets my heavy repair and parts, etc business, the other I go to for a quick fix if I can't get to NY. I don't bounce from shop to shop because both have made themselfs way useful to me. And provide good service.
Treating the customer right ALWAYS pays off in the end. If you're a prick to me, I can shop elsewhere.
/*Yeah, the market is infrequent land crusies. Woo hoo.*/
As long as Amtrak acts that way, that's what they'll be seen as - a land cruise. It's a hopeless market.
/*Name One.*/
Chicago to Millwaukee. Run 2 or 3 car DMU sets (like a Talent, or Flexiliner), at speeds up to 110mph, as frequent as every hour, from 6am to 11pm. Make it point to point, with maybe one or two stops in between. It's an 88 mile trip (I believe). A train can knock that off in 1 hour, easy.
Ok, how about Springfield to New Haven? Once again, 2 - 3 car DMUs every hour durring the day. Increase speeds (get rid of the stupid speed restrictions through Wallingford and Meriden), and do it as fast aspossible. Elimanate the 3 grade crossings below Hartford, and tyou'd get a stretch of 100mph track. Knock out 4 more above New Haven, and you'd get another stretch, with maybe a 90mph turn or two. Make station stops 2 minutes. Co-ordinate with a bus service at Winbdsor Locks to the airport, and at Berlin to New Britan. And of course, with MN at New Haven. Once you get rolling, re activate ther line to NB, and run service there, possibly as a commuter type deal, and provide an accross platform transfer at Berlin.
And then, as you grow, expand out from Springfield to Boston, and maybe down to NYC, via MN's trackage.
With high performance, short, DMUs, you'd get near Electric acceleration, and a top speed around 110mph. Springfield to NY that way, if priced competitively, and frequernt enough, would MURDER Perter Pan. Easily.
/*What type of start up could raise the billions required for a passenger rail system?*/
The CT plan I just proposed (save for the NB extention), could be implemented probbably for less than 100 million. I could go into breaking down fares, etc, but I'm tired now..
/*Metro-North will be Metro North.*/
Metro-North *IS* metro-north. Amtrak has nothing to do with them, expect when MN goes to fetch a broken Amtrak train.
/*Metro North would probably run up to Albany.*/
I know of people in upstate who dream about this.
/*I wouldn't be surprised to see Airlines buying Amtrak equipment and then scrapping it.*/
Why? There's no money in buying a train car and then selling it to be cut up.
That cut up company in NJ will be happy. They'll be sliceing into more Amfleets, Viewliners and superliners than they'll know what to do with.
The AEM-7s will go to various commuter agencies. THey're an excellent locomotive with plenty of life left in them.
/*You might get some private company to run NE corridor trains IF it could fit them in between NJT and ConnDOT trains (they now are the
owners).*/
I'd be in line to run the NEC. Hell, I'd buy it outright. For $500 million or so. The LIRR pays 10 million a year to use it, NJT, septa , the MBTA pay to use it too. That's probbably close to 30 million a year in useage alone. Factor in the freight RRs, and you've got more. Run your own trains, and do it right, and if you can break even with them and the maintenance, I bet you could make back the purchasing costs in 20 years. Get local and state and fed transit dollars, Get assistance to fix SAFETY issues, and you can do it. I'd run 3 classes of trains between NY and DC:
Economy class - these would be high acceleration, "no frills" MUs, based on Silverliners / Arrows, with reclining seats and maybe a drink service of some sort. One every 15 minutes (6am to 10pm), stopping at Newark, Elizabeth, Trenton, 30th Street, Wilmington, Baltamore, BWI, (Come on, you know this one :) New Carrolton, and DC. Price? $15 bucks NY to Philly, $30 NY to DC. And weekly/month commute tickets.
"Travel" class. - AEM-7 and Amfleets. One every hour or 1/2 hour. These would be like NED and AE trains today. $30 to Philly, $60 to DC
High Speed class - Like the Express, but I'd use X-2000s, or ICE-Ts. A rebuilt and improved catenary would allow up to 180 mph operation, making Philly 45 min away. This would be split into Bussiness and "Luxury" class. Bussiness would be $60 to Philly, $120 to DC. Luxury would be a premium service, and be a bit (20%) more. One an hour.
Basically, I'd pump as many trains as I could down the tracks, and get as many people as possible on them.
With an influx of money, and good operating and management, you could advertise like hell. I'd then look to expanding out to Pittsburgh, and north to Boston....
Currently Amtrak is packing many of its trains and commuter agencies are carrying record loads, but nobody is making a profit. Amtrak is comming close with premimum services and mail and express service. I don't know why they aren't making a profit, but they aren't, even with all this bussissness. Under what situation could passenger rail make money? Higher prices and SRO trains? That's dosen't help anybody.
UP and BNSF only run those trains because METRA pays they a reasonable rate of return for their services. METRA dosen't make money, its deficit is covered by the state. If UP and BNSF had to eat the debt its self they can the service.
Freak failure? A tree falling on a single wire knocking out the busiets trackage in the US is NOT a freak failure.
Ok, I guess every single time there's bad weather Amtrak service is completely knocked out just like the airports. All those trains filled to the brim with paniced eastern travelers who flights were cancled was just my imagination.
No, they haven't. They've not bought new equipment and increased service on a large scale. Instead, they proposed a slew of hopeless long distance trains, and raised fares on the NEC.
In 1994 Amtrak tried again to cut its self into profitability. Instead their deficit grew. So they brought back more long distance trains and they made more money.
But first start by popping 2 and 3 car high acceleration, lightweight, cheap trains off every 1 hour or less.
If I wanted to bounce along in a noisy, smelly, DMU with 1-2 seating and no food service I'd just take my car. It already does that. Also light weight cars are screwed every time something gets on the rail that reduces friction like leaves, water or snow. Lightweight DMU's also get rather mangled in wrecks and have a nasty tendency to catch fire. Because even in Europe many hi-speed trains only average 70-80 mph start to stop cars will always be compeditive. Why use a train, because its roomey as hell and provide a super smooth ride. Replace trains with DMU's and you're cramped and unfomfortable (just like driving), but you can't stop at roadside diners.
And waste another day? Today, you have to be there yesterday, or you're dead.
Many services will get you there from 8-10 am. You have to sleep anyway, why not do it on the train and save hotel expenses. On a plane you'll leave mid-morning, arrive in the afternoon, and finally get to where you want to be by 4-5 and by then the day's shot. If you had left the afternoon before you'd have been there in the morning.
Since when? AFAIK, US locomotives are rated by prime movers.
Popular rail author and diesel expert Al Stauffer says so explicitly in Pensy Power II and if can be infered from other places. The prime mover always provides 10-20% more power than listed. The engineer needs to know exactly how much power he has available. Its written on a little card in the cab with other engine stats. If that number was off by %20 there'd be a huge stink and I'm sure the FRA would have gotten involved. One other example is the U-34CH, it had a 3600 hp engine, but 200 were reserved for head end power.
there are, at most, probbably 10,000 or so track miles that would be worth electrifying. Germany alone has more electric miles than that
Germany also has a government that throws money around. Electrifacation is only good in heavaly used passenger rail corridors like the Metra Aruora Line. You'll never see it on mostly freight lines simply because if you have electrics they won't be able to run on all of your lines and most of your compeditors lines. This means more power changes. Today RR's won't even change power on cross country runs. I haven't see a pure set of leading power in ages.
And much heavier, and achive much lower HP:weight ratios.
What other country uses 4000-6000 hp diesels (excluding the ones exported by GE and EMD)? Most diesels overseas are between 3000 and 4000 hp. France hasn't even built diesels since the 60's. The UK bought some new 3200hp diesels from EMD.
No, they don't. If people are too dumb to get on the right train, that's their problem.
I thought you wanted Amtrak to provide more service.
And they've lost untold millions, no BILLIONS more because of this. In fact, Canadian National realized this last year and started running select trains on schedules that are on par with trucks. Traffic gre 11% and 2/3rds of those new customers were TRUCK customers.
Since 1970, the real railroads have divided everything in 1/2. They have removed about 1/2 the track miles and made everything low maintainence and low man power. Sometimes they have gone too far, but they went from bankruptcy to profitability. Conrail was very good at determining what places could go slow that what places should be kept somewhat fast for intermodals and the like. Basically an RR can make more money running intermodals at 50-60 than 70-80+. At those speeds the real differances are made at the system operations and dispatching level.
No. Even the NEC is low traffic compaired to a European mailine. Again - show me a US railroad running with 90 seconds between trains.
Show me a Europian commuter line running 12 car trains with 3-2 seating packed to SRO. We move our people in bulk.
No freight RR on in the US even begins to approach that level of traffic. The NEC and the LIRR barely do.
Freight is an entirely different animal. I'd love to see any line in Europe with 50-60, 50-150 car freight trains per day.
Actually, I believe Amtrak kicked them off the NEC. I bet the E44s could outpull any diesel of their day, and probbably give GM and GE's best a run for their money today.
An E-44 could provide 4400hp w/ 90k starting TF. However, using a second diesel in MU was cheaper than the added cost of transmitting and providing electric power for the E-44.
Are commuters not passengers? In fact, commuter rail has grown by leaps and bounds since the 70's. That people are looking to rail as a commuter tool just shows how well rail has served this application. And Amtrak's had almost nothing to do with that.
I thought we were talking about saving rail transit that would take us from city to city. If Amtrak goes away all that will be left is a bunch of commuter lines that don't take you anywhere.
Your ideas of rail lines are great, but they are still just commuter routes. Simply because of the peaking they will never make any money. Then you have the DMU problem with their noise, vibration and smell and cramped accomidations. Also MU's are much more expensive to buy and maintain than push pull sets. I think the slightly less acceleration would be offset by the better accomidations and the agency running the service would loose a little less money.
*I wouldn't be surprised to see Airlines buying Amtrak equipment and then scrapping it.*/
Why? There's no money in buying a train car and then selling it to be cut up.
Airlines would buy the Amtrak equipment and then scrap it so that nobody else could open a competing service again. The Government wouldn't care because they would be so desperate to liquidate.
I'd be in line to run the NEC. Hell, I'd buy it outright. For $500 million or so.
You'd be in line behind NJT, the MTBA, ConnDot and possibly MARC. They would buy the line from Amtrak and then use it primarily for commuting (like the MetroNorth part today). It would be great for commuters, but life would suck if anybody wanted to run through train service.
Basically, I'd pump as many trains as I could down the tracks, and get as many people as possible on them.
There's your problem. The commuter agencies would already filling the tracks to capacity because reas assured they would come away with NEC ownership. They'd all go slap happy with new services and a new Amtrak would be lucky to fit in an hourly service of both bussiness and an economy.
With an influx of money, and good operating and management, you could advertise like hell. I'd then look to expanding out to Pittsburgh, and north to Boston....
Then gas prices fall to 75 cents again and nobody uses it. Or you get tones of riders (like LIRR, MNRR and NJT) and you still loose money.
(Under what situation could passenger rail make money?)
If the public sector paid for the maintenance and operation of the ROW, as it pays for the roads, and the trains were run by a new, non-featherbedded company with motivated employees. Ie. Southwest.
Think about it. There are plenty of bus lines which make money in this country, albeit with difficulty during the low air fares era which apppears to be ending. Now imagine the economies of scale, and lower fuel use, possible in a train when compared with a bus.
Let alone a plane. Consider how much additional maintenance is required to keep an airplane safe in the air, compared with making a train safe on its own ROW? And look at the size of the crew on a plane, needed for emergencies but not otherwise.
You put three competing carriers on the NE Corridor, and have a public agency just manage the tracks, and all three would make money. Many other routes in densely populated corridors would similarly make money. Would trains from NY to LA be run? Perhaps not, but I agree with Phil, perhaps they should not be.
Sounds like the UK. There was British Rail, state-owned, which owned the tracks and operated the trains. Then a separate company was set up to maintain all tracks (subsidised, but a for-profit public company), and there are several competing companies running the trains. While Railtrack has had trouble, the private operating companies seem to be making a profit. Still, fares are pretty high, like everything else in the UK.
(Sounds like the UK. There was British Rail, state-owned, which owned the tracks and operated the trains. Then a separate company was set up to maintain all tracks (subsidised, but a for-profit public company), and there are several competing companies running the trains. While Railtrack has had trouble, the private operating companies seem to be making a profit. Still, fares are pretty high, like everything else in the UK.)
Privatizing the maintenance of the ROW was their only mistake. Unless you have a burst of growth and competition, as in the railroads in the 19th Century of long distance telecoms in the past 10 years, the way to make the most money in infrastructure is to cash cow your assets, and that's what Railtrack has done. Infrastructure is one thing that should NOT be in private hands, though the government can contract with private parties to manage it on the government's behalf.
The infrastructure should be in the hands of those who run the trains. They know what needs to be done and can do it with out having to beg and plead. You can't have 2 equal services competing on the same rail line. Its wasteful and they would only get in eachother's way. Railroads are meant to compete by routes. If you want NEC competition they should run on the old Camden and Amboy or former Reading routes into NYC. Everybody is complaining about how Amtrak screws the LIRR in Penn Station. Would we be better to have a company that owned the tracks screw everybody? Its better to have 1 winner than all loosers.
Just to address one point, I would rather take Amtrak, at its present service standards level, say from Philly to FL. But the cost is prohibitive. My parents hate to pick me up in Orlando, so I usually pay a bit more to fly into Tampa, Jacksonville, or if I get a relly good deal, ideally Daytona Beach or Gainesville. The closest of these is 2 hours away, or 4 hours for someone picking me up. Amtrak takes me to me hometown, 10 minutes from my house, or if I'm really independent minded, 20 minutes on my city bus. However USAir from PHL to TPA is routinely $180 r/t, whereas Amtrak is $300. If fares were comparable, I might be willing to spend 20 hours rather than 5 hours (3 in the air, 2 in car), but they're not; the truth is I can't afford Amtrak on long trips, although I wish I could.
However USAir from PHL to TPA is routinely $180 r/t, whereas Amtrak is $300.
Funny, I just checked Amtrak for the round-trip coach fare from Philadelphia to Winter Haven, Florida (not knowing your hometown I simply took a random station south of Tampa), and it's $228 coach using trains 89/98, Friday departure, Sunday (a week plus later) return. More than the plane, yes, but not by much.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I found $310 on trains 89/90 30th St. to Ocala leaving on a Monday and returning Wednesday 2 weeks later.
Gey AAA, aside from free towing you get a %10 discount on Amtrak.
Triple A is for automobiles, which I neither require nor own. It's also a pro-roads (and hence anti-transit) lobby.
AARP does the same... we refuse to join on principle, even though it would save us some money in a lot of places, since they tend to lobby for things we don't support.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mosue
I just checked Ocala, using a Saturday (3 February) departure from Philly and a Monday (12 February) return I got $200. There wasn't anything available, interestingly enough, with an 11 February return, which is what I had used from Winter Haven.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That sounds cheaper than what I've seen in the past. Nevertheless, average cheap fares for planes are cheaper than average cheap fares on Amtrak, in general. And considering the time factor (I usually am away a week or less), I would rather have the two extra days either getting paid at work or with my family in FL. I have even flown for $112 before. This Thanksgiving I didn't have any vacation time coming, but I was able to fly down to JAX on Thanksgiving morning and return Friday morning (I was a few hours late to work) for $130. I couldn't have done that on Amtrak. Sure, I could have taken Friday off and stayed the whole weekend, but I went home for Christmas and my parents had visited me about 5 weeks earlier, so I opted to keep one day's pay on Friday (about the cost of the ticket). Since I wasn't going to go anyway, it was a bonus. I'm not trying to argue that flying is better than the train (or am I?), but just that flying is more economical for a medium distance trip such as PHL-FL, under current market, taxation, and subsidy conditions.
I've been told to post here, so I am posting...
My 2 cents worth about the Amtrak issue, I believe that long distance rail travel is never going to be as profitable as it used to be - but it can work, it just has to tap into the right market. This right market, in my view, are journeys which are between two and six hours in length, running at an average speed of at least 100mph. This means between 200 and 600 miles. This also means the rail line must have direct connexion to airline terminals about every 100 miles or so, so those who are going more than about 800 miles can change onto a plane by walking off the platform and onto a check-in desk.
Who's going to pay for all this, well, not me for sure - which is the problem - there's no reason why rail should be subsidized any more than air or road travel. The real problem nowadays is that road travel is subsidised more than rail travel.
Amtrak has a stupid fare structure - it is based on distance - BR dropped this in the 1960s. Try it, it works. Amtrak also needs to sort out their resource utilization - and a few more issues. Still, they haven't employed me, so I can't help them.
The problem of infrastructure ownership is a tricky one - one which is too long for discussion on a webboard.
Lexcie (ex-British Rail Management Trainee)
Amtrak does a lot of stupid things, so does every corporation and government entity. Our anecdotal evidence does not go far in figuring out if indeed amtrak is a particularly stupid company. My experience is that they are pretty stupid, but steadily improving. Right now I would say they are less stupid than United, for example. (One thing is for sure: United actually has a bigger morale problem now than amtrak ever did. That is quite an accomplishment by UAL!)
Most of your complaints about the service amtrak does not provide are due to lack of equipment and infrastructure $$$. Tell us, where on earth is a passenger RR of any type that pays for its own equipment and ROW? The best pay a little more than their operational costs, perhaps on paper they supposedly pay for the rolling stock, on ideal routes, much like amtrak claims it will do with acela - (which is so far making amtrak look pretty good).
Sorry, you cannot fix the blame for our country failing to invest in rail travel on amtrak. You can blame them for surly employees (especially if you haven't ridden in years so you have not seen the improvements) or you can blame them for things like disappointing equipment utilization. But that is not the root of the problem - the root of the problem is the lack of investment from the public sector.
[. If the airlines were forced to own and operate JFK LAG etc as well as the traffic control functions at FAA about two thirds of air travel would vaporize because ALL fares would skyrocket. ]
From this site i've got an impression that airports make profit. FAA like institutions are run everywhere by government.
Arti
>>From this site i've got an impression that airports make
profit. FAA like institutions are run everywhere by
government. <<
my point is that ATK either directly pays for signal and dispatching systems or is charged for using those of the host rr, unlike airlines. In turn the real estate taxes on rr row's are not negligible, whereas JFK etc are operated by the gov't for the airlines. If the airlines were forced to own the land at JFK and pay real estate taxes on it the ticket prices would go up. What I am trying to elucidate is that we as a country need a realistic and environmentally driven national transportation policy.
Now, in my view this would mean pricing short air trips out of the market. In turn, I would allocate major funding to a true national rail passenger system with both 'moderate speed and high speed services.
Many believe that the NEC and possibly some California corridor service could be run profitably if Amtrak could somehow shed the baggage of their other money-losing routes.
I suspect that if Amtrak were to dissolve, some type of public-private partnership would emerge where by a private concern (probably one of the major freight carriers) would be responsible for running and maintaining the trains and the federal government would be responsible for maintaining the rails and signals.
Here's an interesting idea -- what about American Airlines taking over the running of the trains on the NEC and the California corridor? They're getting killed by United in California now, and they've got to realize that the proposed "every other US Air shuttle" agreement with United is a loser as well.
One of my big problems with Amtrak is that it is taking tax dollars for stuff that doesn't need tax dollars. Many long distance and sleeper service is not really necessary in the travel market. This doesn't mean that the service should not exist; it just means that the service should not exist unless it can at least break even.
Also, have you ever looked at the schedules for the Silver Star, Crescent, Silver Palm, and Silver Meteor? They're pretty slow between NY and Washington. I sure hope they don't run in the center tracks (in 4-track locations) and slow things up for the stuff that is supposed to be moving a bit faster. On that grounds, I don't know if they should be running north of Washington at all. There just isn't room on the tracks.
For those of you interested in Amtrak, I reccomend that you read Derailed by Joseph Vranich. Though its copyright is 1996, it has some interesting and shocking facts. I don't know whats changed since then. And his arguements seem much better than the arguements of his opponents in the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers.
The Silver trains are fit where they can. I usually see them on the local tracks. My Keystone train passed a Cresent that left 15 minutes ahead of us from Penn.
I have not read Derailed but I've seen enough of what Vranich has to say. He hates amtrak personally and seems to have no objectivity with respect to them whatsoever. I think he even quit the amtrak reform council - the external body set up and appointed by house republicans for critiquing amtrak (and replacing it if thats what they thought should be done). As far as I can tell Vranich realized that the reform council was actually interested in making amtrak improve itself, instead of making amtrak follow all of Vranich's suggestions. He has the bitterness of someone who really wanted amtrak to succeed and was personally involved and deeply hurt when, rightly or wrongly, they did not follow his advice. He may be a smart guy, but I do not think he has anything useful to say about Amtrak.
One very interesting part of the book is how Vranich shows that trains over the exact same routing were slower in 1996 than in 1950, something that I can believe, knowing Amtrak.
...trains over the exact same routing were slower in 1996 than in 1950
The 75th anniversary run of the Broadway Limited (Amtrak) took longer than the initial trip, and it didn't have to stop for coal and water.
The problem is since Amtrak controls very few of its own lines, its headways are determined mainly by the availablity of open trackage and the presence of the more-profitable freight rail cars on the same lines.
Outside of the northeast corridor, many lines are single-tracked, where trains reach a certain point and have to wait on sidings for one, two or possible three other trains to pass in the opposite direction. Companies like Union Pacific, Canadian Pacific-Illinois Central and Burlington Northern Santa Fe allow Amtrak to use their lines, but since they don't operate the passenger service themselves there's nothing in it for them to give the Broadway Limited, Sunset Limited or any other line complete priority over freight cars.
I was driving on Interstate 10 between Phoenix and Tucson doing the speed limit -- 75 mph -- when I suddenly saw an Amtrak train starting to pass me on the left side of the highway. In about five minutes all 10 passenger cars were ahead of me, leaving just the three attatched freight cars to go when it suddenly started to slow down about 40 miles outside of Tuscon, apparently to allow for a freight train headed to Phoenix to pass.
I stopped for gas and to get something to eat on the north side of Tucson about half an hour later, and in that 10 minute time, the Amtrak train never caught up. I'm sure for the passengers on the train, watching it pass cars on the highway for about 80 miles south of Phoenix and then seeing all those cars pass them for seemingly no good reason had to be a frustrating sight.
(Outside of the northeast corridor, many lines are single-tracked, where trains reach a certain point and have to wait on sidings for one, two or possible three other trains to pass in the opposite
direction.)
With all the railroads merging into one big monopoly anyway, what would make sense is to nationalize the rails, then upgrade them with an Interstate Highway-type program. You'd have two or four track railroads, completely grade-separated all the way, with easy grades and curves, to allow trains to travel coast to cost at 60+ miles per hour without even slowing down, just as on the highways. Today, trains travel on the equivalent of U.S. 1.
All major rail companies would be allowed to go anywhere in the country, just as trucking companies can go anywhere in the country on the highways. After the purchase and massive upgrade, fees would probably cover the cost of the government-operated ROW. Travel slots could be auctioned off, then resold, on a futures market in Chicago. There would be competition between rail freight companies everywhere, and between passenger rail companies wherever the population densities in dense corridors justified it.
Imagine the labor savings -- three persons in a cab, one driving, one watching, and one sleeping hauling 300 piggyback trailers. Labor shortages plague the trucking industry, and truckers are under pressure to drive too fast without enough sleep. Think of the energy savings.
Think of the politics. Oh well.
Imagine the labor savings -- three persons in a cab, one driving, one watching, and one sleeping hauling 300 piggyback trailers. Labor shortages plague the trucking industry, and truckers are under pressure to drive too fast without enough sleep. Think of the energy savings.
That's not a savings considering that the trains currently run with two persons in a cab. As I have said before its not a good idea to seperate the train operators from the infarsturcture owners. Also trains should compete with routes not on the same track. The current rail lines are very good, fast and well built. Most problems arise from poor management and allocation of resources.
Well the 1996 'Way had to travel on a longer route because the Fort Wayne Line was downgraded over the years. Also, in PRR days, the 'Way was the flagship train and had priority over everything else, like the Conrail TV trains. It was also hauled by the fastest of the fastest locomotive like K-4's and T-1's and west of Crestline S-1's and S-2's.
Agreed. My memories of intercity trains in the 50's and early 60's are of on time performance except in the most severe weather. Too many memories of late Amtraks even in mild weather, on longer schedules than in the old days.
Then again Greyhound exp. busses run NYC-Chi in 16 hours IIRC, the slower ones 18 hours. On time mostly. I still like the train better, trust me but have to give credit where due.The train should be faster as it once was.
The fastest the train ever went was 16 hours NY to Chigago. What was when there was a 4 track main almost the whole way. If a geryhound bus can do it in 16 without breaking a sweat you can see what the trains are up against.
And mismanagement too. Like 1:50 late ,lost between Philly and somewhere around Johnstown...why? following freights. This was 1997 and I'd beem reading that Amtrak had these disputes with the host roads settled and they'd let Amtrak make their time. But here we were following freights.and late. oh well. So much for time to ride a few Pittsburgh trolleys. Had a connection to Chicago to make.
actually, Perlman had slimmed the Water Level route ro two tracks w/ full CTC and the schedule still stood in the early 60's. As to PRR, AFIK the "FT. Wayne" was never four tracks between Pittsburgh and Chicago. But 28/29 RAN. In my view, the issue is much more a dispatching puzzle, than a capacity problem. CSX has used its dispatching incompetence to get state money to upgrade the RF&P main in Va. This for a company whose chairman sided with Gingrich in the budget wars demanding welfare cuts.
If a Greyhound bus can do it in 16 without breaking a sweat...
If a Greyhound bus does it in 16 hours then he's averaging almost 60 mph - which, since there are stops and at least one driver change, means that the bus is being driven faster than the law allows.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The law allows at least 65 in NY and PA and I think the limit is 70-75 in OH and IN. I know that they are probably speeding, but what cop is going to pull over a greyhound bus?
Or anyone, for that matter? As long as there is capacity, it's pretty much a rule of thumb across the country that the real speed "limit" is ten more than posted, and if everyone is going 80 in a 60 zone, you're likely to go along with them. In FL, there are even some US highways (not interstate quality; with traffic lights and grade crossings), where the limit is 70.
Virtually all the non-urban U.S. and state highways in Texas have the same posted speed limit as the Interstates, 70 miles per hour during the day and 65 at night, though on the two lane roads truck speeds are limited to 65 day, 60 night.
Strangely, in New Mexico (which has fewer people living there than Brooklyn and Queens combined) and Arizona, the interstate speed limit is 75 mph, but rural U.S. and state highways are only 55 to 65 mph depending on the location. Most of the southern states and California also have 70 mph speed limits, though when you hit the slower speed limits in Virgina coming North from Tennessee towards New York on I-81, it seems like most drivers speed up just to spite the state for keeping their maximum speed at 65 mph.
I think the limit is 70-75 in OH and IN.
Not unless they've raised it since December '99. Ohio had several stretches of 60 mph on I-80/I-90 at that time. And cops do stop buses - I watched one get pulled in Indiana on my last trip through there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You better believe it. On I-95 in Maryland (65 MPH speed limit outside of "urban" areas) the State Police routinely pull buses over for exceeding 75 and above. The buses do push the limit all the time, and the State Police are happy to get the driver a couple of points on the CDL.
How fast did the New Haven run there? If MNRR stoped being such a scardy cat and maybe maintained its catenary properly they could easily run at 100 mph.
so my question is; what are the stats for the same period for departures/arrivals from Hoboken? Because this would be a good yardstick for comparison. As to ATK delaying local riders, I rather suspect that in PRR times the long distance trains had precedence over commuters.
Also the NEC was the primary PRR north-south freight line and freights were running 24-7. Of course back then there were more crossovers and by-passes and the such.
Amtrak probably tries to avoid annoying the LIRR, since MNRR could do far worse in retaliation (You held that Speonk train for 30 minutes! Guess what, your Acela is going right behind this Stamford local!) NJT has no such leverage.
Actually, years back (about 10) NJT had provisions in their contract with Amtrak which gave Amtrak progressively higher fees if NJT's on-time status met certain levels. It was the LIRR which didn't have such provisions and routinely got short-changed.
I don't know if this is still the case. Either way, I suspect that the numbers for the period cited have a lot more to do with the 12-24 inches of snow that fell over New Jersey on December 30th than any Amtrak prioritization issues
my area had 30 inches back in 1996 and NJT did much better in 1996 then they did this year. Yes- Amtrak did run in 1996.
Salaam's video took me for a ride on the LIRR Hempstead branch, from Hempstead to Jamaica.
I realize that they activate a bell sound just before they open or close the doors. It sounds like an loud old fashioned door bell.
What does it mean when this bell sounds while the train is in motion?
When the train's moving, it means there has been a change in the maximum allowed speed (I think).
Anytime the bell sounds, it signifies that there is a change in the track condition ahead. Usually, the bell accompanies a change of code as seen in the engineer's cab. For example, if the engineer has an '80' code and it drops to a '60' code, the bell will sound and the engineer must acknowledge the bell or the brakes will automatically apply. The bell will also sound in a case where the train is exceeding the maximum authorized speed.
Thanks Steve, and Henry too!
I am just overwhelmed by all of the changes to transit equipment since I have been out of the city.
You got to admit though, that bell sounds an awful lot like a door bell in a home from fifty years ago.
i heard that the 110A is to return to service sometime around February or march is that true? someone e-mailed it to me.
Last thing I heard about they is that they're being rebuilt to the R142A specs and will return under cover as R142A's :)
Shawn.
I thought the doors are wirder on the R110A then the R142A. I guest that is one thing they might not be able to fix. It would be very instering to see a mix of trains with different size door.
Robert
It would be impossible to do. The couplers are different. The 110A uses a coupler similar to that of LIRR Equipment. The set will basically operate by itself and not in train with anything else.
-Stef
Im not a party to the rumor (not a lot of NYCT news gets to Baltimore), but if they would possibly be rebuilt to R142A specs, the electronics and things like couplers would be changed to meet the new spec.
Given that the 110A was a test bed, I suspect South Brooklyn as a possible destination for the train.
send this to the "Q" line if it comes back. the rust on the r40 slants look bad, and besides, wouldnt this look cool through the 63rd Street tunnel?
The R110A/R130 are a division trains. The Q Line is a B-Division line.
(120)
Nope.
R110A -> R130
R110B -> R131
you sure?
Yeah.
Really? On what line? The 2? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I WISH! Put that garbage on the 1/9 or SOMETHING! Not the 2 again! Oh, anybody seen the R110B/131 cars on the C lately?
They can't go on the 1/9, for the same reason the 142s and redbirds can't...
They'll probably end up on the 4, they're not getting too many NT trains anyway, may as well throw in an oddball.
Oh I see. You mean scrap heap?
-Stef
Will they just keep the black front, or have the red added in front too? -Nick
Does anybody kwow what happened to the r110 that was sitting at the 239th street yard. It's no longer siting there parked anymore.
It probably went up to Kawasaki for modifications.
It was there as of Friday, 1-12-01. Unless it was moved today.
Train#1992Mike
I went by the 239th street yard friday evening and did'nt see it.
I got on the F at Jay street Borough all. I got on 6138 a northbound F. It went thru the rutgers street tube as usual. But I noticed at 47-50th streets we took a bottom yellow at the X140 ball. The best part about riding the F thru the 63rd street tube is the look on peoples faces. They have no idea where they were going. It wasn't until the Train reached 36th street they figured it out. The only thing I hated about going thru the 63rd street tunnel on the F(my fav line) is that it was congested the whole way!. We didn't go faster than 17 because we followed a Romeo. I liked how quickly peoples faces released a collective sigh of relief when they knew where they were.
Yo today I rode an F train via 63rd street connector saw the same reactions. I boarded F train at Jay street at about 0920 and went thru connector. The funniest part is after being held at queensbridge the C/R and T/O were confused because the T/O was told that the train is running express but the C/R did not get the new change yet so she was announcing queens local and T/O was interrupting over PA to announce that its going express (hearing control on my radio scanner while laughing) and the people kept getitng on and off and on and off. It was hilarious. so finally they agreed and the C/R finally appologized for the inconvenience and announced properly that the train was making express stops. she also was arguing with a passenger at 63rd/lex about why and how the connector service worked. While she was yelling over the PA he was standing outside on the platform (obviously a tourist because numerous times she asked him to come up to the 4th car to address him) over all a hilarious ride and interesting conversation heard on Radio scanner.
Take care every one . wassup marty. SEVEN and "a vandal squad" GCW
As an E line Motorman, I have a bone to pick with you. A BIG bone to pick with you. Your handle is "E to Jamaica Center". Yet you have the audacity to ride an F train as your first ride thru the 63rd St. connector and say that the F is your favorite line to boot? You have some pair of gonads! You are an insult to the E Line! You could have rode a nice R32 E train and got a front row railfan window. Nooooo. You ride R46 with a plastic blurry window! That ain't no railfan window! That's a poor excuse for a railfan window. I hearby fire you and demand you change your handle to F to 179 St.!!!!!!
The E is the worst line in the system, next to the M!
>>>You could have rode a nice R32 E train<<<
There is no such thing as a NICE R32 E train.
They're JUNK JUNK JUNK!
The R32 is a very durable car. The ones on the E get tremendous amounts of mileage and passenger loadings. The rush hours start early and finish late, they run every 7 1/2 minutes middays and 8 minute headways on the weekends, they only start running every 12 minutes after 9 PM out of Jamaica Center. The E starts laying up after the J/Z line is put to bed, becasue the J/Z is laying up virtually every other train in the rush when the Z arrives at Parsons. Compare that to the R40 & R42. Those cars get low mileage. Most R40's lay up all weekend since they are mostly sssigned to the Q, and most R40M and R42's are laid up all weekend since the M only needs 4 trains and the J/Z/L only needs about half their fleet on the road. If the R40/42 cars ever had to run the mileage in such a short amount of time which the Jamaica R32's had to, the TA couldn't make service, as those cars don't belong in the same ballpark! I will miss the R32's when I leave the E line.
I will personally hold you responsible if you shut me out of my line next pick!
And I will personally hold the guy who transfered from the #7 line responsible!
Unh-uh-uhhhhhhhhh.
Hey!
I went to the Transit museum today and I was helping out some of the Transit museum workers. I was showing the kids the R42 controller in the cab look alike that leads to the movie room. I also was just basically helpin out and explaining certain things I knew about to the kids in the museum. It was really fun. I also, was talking to a museum visitor who happened to be a Motorman for 16 years!. He told me he remembers operating the R10's on the Diamond C Train when it went to Bedford park BL. He showed me how the door controls worked and how he used to run them from bedford park to Rockaway park. He wanted to prove that he was a Motorman, so he showed me his pass, and he even said from Bedford park to Rockaway park was 57 stops. I counted and sure enuf, it was 57 stops. My mouth dropped open.
Congrats! Isn't it great doing something you LIKE? I too did time on the r1/9's and R10's ... I worked concourse/brighton myself back in the early 70's ... if I get back to "fun city" will definitely make contact and give a salutory salute of the rotating coffee grinder. :)
Good for you ! Doesn't it make you feel realy fine inside to know that you are doing a little soemthing to keep those old cars around so another gerneration will be able to see what they looked like AND some lucky kids may even get to ride on them (D types, Lo-Vs & Standards).
Mr t__:^)
Well, the opening ceremony at Branch Ave for the 5 new stations on the PGC Green line extension were quite lavish. Metro had two large tents up, with free catered lunch in one. They had the customary one-day passes, pennants, etc.
I spent about 2 1/2 hours exploring the 5 new stations (1:15-3:45) before going home via the 32 bus from Southern Ave -- about a 95-minute ride to Friendship Hts.
Quite an exciting day! I have to go out now, but I'll write more later. Didn't see any 5000-series cars, though.
C
Eight 5000 Series Cars enter service on February 4th. Until then, cars will be borrowed from other lines. Expect some 4 car trains at rush hour until then.
I considered the even 30s to get home, decided against it. That bus needs to be split into two routs like with the M10/M20 in NYC.
Anyone know the specs on the 5000s? I've heard they'll have revised interior color schemes and moldings, but that's about it. Will they have any appreciable exterior differentiation?
Speaking of color, I'm glad to see Metro's finally ditched its drab brown for at least the escalator/elevator housings on the Branch Ave extension. It's so refreshing to see bright, cheerful stainless steel!
Chris
It's so refreshing to see bright...
And speaking of bright, I was glad to hear recently that the idea of more brightly lit stations will be extended to some of the older stations. While I am sure that the lighting planners of the older stations were guided by some kind of unifying asthetic philosophy, it seems never to have ocurred to them that people might like to read books or newspapers while waiting for the train. Current lighting at most older underground stations has not been adequate (at least to these aging eyes) for such endeavors. It was an especially traumatic change from the station lighting with which I grew up in NYC where, while it wasn't by any means perfect, one did not have a problem (yes, yes, I know, the eyes were younger then) with reading books and newspapers--not to mention getting homework assignments done on what seemed like long high school commutes and waits at stations (never paid any attention to schedules back then; just went to the station and waited).
They will also have interior signs like those on the MFL, located at each end of the car. No differences on the exterior.
I did it! I took the E train thru the 63rd Street connector today. Unfortunatly, it went local from 21st Street, Queensbridge, to Roosevelt Ave. The connector has the new style of TA lighting, meaning those orange hydrogen lights, or whatever they are. The spur is also wide, with a large concrete catwalk on the side. I believe there is also an emergency exit. I may be wrong on some of this, because I only did it once.
It's interesting to think that there are four possible routes out of Queens Plaze. 53, 60 ,63 streets, and the crosstown line. If the TA is going to cut back the G, which I think is a bad idea because the transfer at 23-Ely is long, they should at least do this.
G local to Church Avenue during rush hours and Middays. The F could go express utilizing the now unused Prospect Park tunnel. I think at least one other Southern Division line should have some express service. The only full-fledged express line on the Southern Division is the Brighton.
They don't have enough cars!!!!!!!!
Also, they can't run express and local service on the F (Bergen to Church) because the interlocking equipment to control it is stil damaged from the fire two years ago. They have either just awarded, or are about to award, a contract to replace the damaged equipment with new solid-state controls. When that is done, in a couple of years, maybe they will run the F as an express and the V as a local to Church Ave.
That makes sense. The termination of the V at 2nd Ave. will create a backup all along the F line south of W4th. Mark my words.
maybe if the bridge is switched as predicted, the V could terminate at Grand so it doesn't close, and really doesn't back things up too bad
It won't close anyway (the'll run a shuttle), and to turn at Grand they'd have to single track after W4. Anyway second ave has the 2 center tracks perfect for turning trains at about 8 TPH.
It'd much rather see F/V express/local pairings for Brooklyn and Hillside ave. What if they upped the 143 order to about 400 or so?
There are plans to order more R143's, which will be given the contract R160 designation.
The termination of the V at 2nd Ave. will create a backup all along the F line south of W4th. Mark my words.
I doubt it is possible to over-estimate NYCT's capacity for mismanagement. However, the turn around at 2nd Ave should not cause a bottleneck given the low level of service envisioned. The easiest way to increase capacity, which should not be required, is to remove the bumpers and replace the tail tracks at 2nd Ave.
I would expect downtown bottlenecks at the Queens connector entrance, just south of Queens Plaza and just north of 50th St.
The current plan is 10 V's per hour, and since all V trains must sit outside of 2nd Ave. on the same track as the Brooklyn bound F must use to await an open track to pull into, there will be backups. They cannot be avoided.
[They cannot be avoided. ]
If you were to use both express tracks to turn V's it could be avoided. I don't think it would be a big deal if half the V-s would leave from the Brooklyn bound platform, effectively not picking up passangers from 2nd Avenue.
Arti
I think that's the plan. But during rush hours, the 2 tracks will be filled at the same time, necessitating a wait for the next train to leave for the next one to pull in.
If you ride the R line out of 95th, which will run on the same headway, you'll see what I mean.
1. Better scheduling, what are 2 trains doing there in the first place.
2. Reroute the V to Brooklyn.
Arti
Can't send the V to Brooklyn. They don't have enough cars! Originally the plan was to get the R143's on line, then open up the extension. No since the cars will be late late late, the TA can't wait!
...since all V trains must sit outside of 2nd Ave. on the same track as the Brooklyn bound F must use to await an open track to pull
into, there will be backups.
It's strictly a "garbage in/garbage out" question, like all queueing problems. You are implying that NYCT is incapable of turning a train around in 6 minutes.
The real problem is the proposed unequal service levels on the E, F, R and V. This will be the fundamental cause of the bottlenecks.
With F trains sharing the same tracks, I'm definatley saying that. Get used to slow moving and waits if you ride the Brooklyn bound F near 2nd Ave. during rush hours.
Any delays in either direction at 2nd Ave will not be unavoidable. They will be the result of TA operational and managerial deficiencies. These should be the least expensive type of problem to overcome.
This is not the first time that either Bway-Lafayette or 2nd Ave has been used as a terminal. It was the "F" terminal between 1954 and 1967 prior to Chrystie St and the 6th Ave express tracks. The downtown turnout in those days was effected just north of the W 4th St station. There were no structural backups with 30tph operation on the 6th Ave local tracks entering W 4th, nor on the terminal tracks entering B-L or 2nd Ave. There is no reason why structural delays should appear now.
Back then, the trains terminating at B'way/Lafayette-2nd. Ave. could wait for an opening at the terminal on it's own dedicated track. The V would have to wait on the same track the F uses. The switch over to the center tracks at 2nd. Ave is directly outside the station. 2nd Ave. was never used as a terminal with today's post-Chrystie track configuration.
This problem could be avoided to a great extent if the V trains were turned around using the now sealed up tail tracks east of the station. Does a crossover exist on these tracks?
During the 86-88 reroutes, there was a 6Av shuttle (sometimes signed as B) that terminated at 2Av. How often it ran, or what its exact route was, I don't recall at the moment.
According to the track maps on here, a new set of "express" tracks appear after the Chrystie split and there's a scissor between the express tracks *before* the 2Av station. Perhaps Peter Dougherty can let us know if that's still the case.
According to the track maps on here, a new set of "express" tracks appear after the Chrystie split and there's a scissor between the express tracks *before* the 2Av station. Perhaps Peter Dougherty can let us know if that's still the case.
Hi,
These are not new by any stretch of the immiganation. The tracks to which you refer are indeed in service and designated B5 and B6. Home signal X-86 protects access to them, and X-34 protects the scissors crossover if you're heading towards 2nd Ave. Therefore, 3 yellows at 86-Ball and a bottom-yellow at 34-ball will put you into B6 track.
p.s. if you don't want your e-mail address to appear (I take it you're not really nomail@dev.nul), you can just not fill in the E-Mail Address box when your'e posting .
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
This problem could be avoided to a great extent if the V trains were turned around using the now sealed up tail tracks east of the station. Does a crossover exist on these tracks?
There is no crossover on the tail tracks beyond the false wall in the station. The is only one double-crossover to the west of the station. As to train delays, I don't know how bad it really will be. It shouldn't take too much effort to thread one V train every 6 minutes into a string of Fs (what's the F's headway normally? 4 minutes??). If for any reason you have a dead train at 2nd Av., thus are only using one terminal track, I can see problem developing *then*, but not under normal operating circumstances.
I would certainly agree that re-opening the tail tracks beyond 2Av. would be a big help, though.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Couldn't the Vs also be turned after Broadway-Lafayette by using the old KK Chrystie Street connection tracks?
Couldn't the Vs also be turned after Broadway-Lafayette by using the old KK Chrystie Street connection tracks?
No. Well, not with any degree of simplicity. The Chrystie Street Cut exists to facilitate routing a southbound train from 6th Ave. through to the Willie-B (and vice-versa), and not as a relay. If you were to use this routing, your terminal station would have to be Essex Street on the J/M/Z, and you'd interfere with Nassau St. traffic much worse than F service would be affected by the proposed 2 Avenue routing. Remember, you want to turn trains around as quickly and effortlessly as possible.
To get a better idea of what I'm about to describe, check out the image below (I tried for 10 minutes to write the @#$%& HTML code to get this thing to link, but it only wanted to link back to SubTalk, and not the image. I give up--I'm permanently HTML-impaired!)
To relay through the Chrystie St. cut you would take BJ1 track after B'Way-Lafayette, and wind up at Essex St. on J1 track, likely having to wait for a J/M/Z to make its station-stop and clear the platform. Then discharge the train on the Queens-bound platform (by now, you're holding up the following J/M/Z trains if it's rush hour), pull high of the station, change ends and relay back to J2 track. You're now holding up Manhattan-bound trains on the bridge as you take on clean the train. THEN you start back up, taking the cut and coming up short of B'way-Lafayette where either the V or the F will have to wait for the other to clear, before proceeding on course.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Thanks for the image, Peter. I had it in my head that both of the Chrystie Street tracks could access the middle track at Essex, and that could be used as the turnaround track. Obviously, the eastbound track doesn't, so it would block the M/J/Z trains if used as a turnaround.
Reopening the tail tracks won't do any good because if you did you can't fit 20 cars from the block to the leaving home signal. For some reason when the IND was built, they built it for 9 60'cars, not 10.
Not to nitpick (forgive me) ... but the IND was built for 6 and 8 consists with generous slop space for overshoots. 10 cars happened in the mid 50's ...
Not to mention 11-car E and F trains from 1953 to 1957.
Those tail tracks at 2nd Ave. were supposed to continue to S. 4th St. and beyond in Brooklyn.
Back then, the trains terminating at B'way/Lafayette-2nd. Ave. could wait for an opening at the terminal on it's own dedicated track.
I thought I made it rather clear that back then the "F" and "D" shared the same track local track between 34th and W 4th. Any backup at B-L would have impacted "D" service rather quickly.
If you think 15 tph is too high, consider what they used to do at Park Row during the cable car days. They ran 90 tph one train in every 45 seconds. Also consider that they had to couple/uncouple electric dummy engines to accomplish the relay. BTW the limiting factor was not the terminal but weight restrictions on the Brooklyn Bridge.
This problem could be avoided to a great extent if the V trains were turned around using the now sealed up tail tracks east of the station. Does a crossover exist on these tracks?
The purpose for using the tail tracks is to increase the allowable approach speed into the station. The theoretical capacity for a stub terminal with bumpers is around 30 tph. The use of tail tracks permits the enter the station at higher speed. This increases the theoretical capacity to around 40 tph. There are no switches at the tail tracks.
Not really. All trains terminating at B'way Lafayette or Second Ave. could wait on a seperate track than the trains going through to Brooklyn did. If the terminal was full, Brooklyn-bound trains could proceed past the trains waiting for a slot to open. This is not possible at Second Ave. today.
The service level on the 14th St Line was 24 tph in 1954. It was composed of 12 locals that were turned around at Myrtle Ave and 12 Expresses (6 each to Lefferts and Canarsie). Locals relayed onto the single track spur just east of Myrtle.
The geometric and operational contstraints were far more stringent than the proposed 2nd Ave operation - 1 track vs. 2; bumper at end of layup track and more tph. Backups at Myrtle were not a problem.
There was a similar situation with the old Bronx Park terminal on the White Plans Rd line. The service levels were 15 tph for the 7th Av-Bronx Park Expresses and 15 tph for the Lex-WPR Expresses. This operation had the added complication of full grade crossing - which while not limiting capacity does place a premium on maintaining the schedule.
BMT express service was even more interesting in the early 1950's. There were 30 northbound expresses to turn around per hour. The 10 Brighton Expresses joined 20 locals just north of Herald Sq. The remaining 20 expresses relayed north of Times Sq. The Brighton Expresses turned around at 57th without delaying the locals which were running on the same track and running to Astoria.
If the TA wants to terminate the V (virus) there, I'd suggest they modify the signals and remove that call-on which will cause congestion all the way back to W4th due to the stopping to accept the signal and the slow speed entering Second Ave. When the F terminated there years ago, there was no call on. Then again, it was in the middle at Bway Laf. till construction started to build the hill up toward Grand St.
what about 4th ave?
Can the R-142 display any other color but red?
Yes they can. But i don't why they won't change it though. It looks kind of wierd that the 6 in red is running on the Lex.
What??? No they can't.
The dipolar ones would have been dimmer. Green on black is a little harder to read from far away than red on black. Does it really matter?
They can display other colors on the Route number on the LED inside of the car.
I don't think they make high intensity dipolar LED's. Even if they were dipolar, they would only be able to show Red, Green and Orange. What they should have done was make the route designation modular. just pop out the red matrix and pop in the green matrix. It would be pretty easy. I imagine it would be hard to make sense out of any color other than red from far away on those signs though. Too bad LCD screens like on laptops aren't bright enough. With those you would have an infinate number of possibilities.
Shawn.
They do make high-intensity full-color LEDs. That's what most stadium video displays are made from these days. And the screens in Times Square, like the NASDAQ tower? Millions of full-color LEDs. (Full-color LEDs are really just red, green, and blue LEDs in one package.)
If they can be seen in full daylight in Times Square, they could sure as heck be seen on the front of a train. They are more expensive, obviously, but when the car costs millions anyway, an extra hundred or so for full-color route indictators would have been nice.
Okay, now for the counter-argument... Yes they could have made 'em full-color, and they would have been reasonably bright and visible, but they can make them much brighter red-only. Also, certain colors, such as blue and purple, would have been much harder to see. Red is always more visible. I guess they decided that having consistently bright displays was more important than displaying the color-coding.
They could have gone with yellow instead of red, but with LED technology at its current state, red is cheaper and brighter.
Actually, the full color displays you see use separate red green & blue units. Single full color units are very expensive. The only place I believe I've seen them is at the Bar Code arcade in Times Square, at the bottom of the escalator in the front entrance. There are two verical light strips on the wall, but they haven't been turning them on for months. They are also used on newer scanners.
I'm surprised they didn't fo with the orange, because that seems to be the most visible as it was the choice for the digital road signs, and they did test it on a few buses. Orange would be crisper and brighter and have less glare than even the red. And I don't think they are any more expensive than the red. It's only the blue based ones that are more expensive.
Full color signs--Times Qauare area
1 Times Square: Budweiser, Astrovision (newly replacing FDT's with LED's); Discover Card sign way on top
NBC store
Good Morning America Studio
Toyota sign to the right of it
Welcome to Times Sq. sign bet. 44th & 45th (E side)
David Copperfield display (same block, W side)
NASDAQ board
LOEWS E-walk theater sign
Internet cafe across the street (mockup computer screen)
Delta airlines screen and skyline on PA terminal
The new building on NW corner of 42nd & 7th looks like it is getting display panels as well (this is how Conde Nast building looked before Nasdaq board was installed).
white LED signs
Sony Style store (55th & Madison), above cash register
walk sign on 49th & Lexington (SE corner)
Blue only sign
WB store (5th floor, news stand--stock market readings)
Well, yes... when I said "unit", I meant package, not lens. I was thinking of the pre-assembled "pixels" often used in such video displays, which I was referring to as units, which do contain the separate colored elements you referred to. I was under the impression, however, that single, full-color LEDs could be had for about a buck, which doesn't seem too bad. If that is the case, you could make a full-color route indicator for just a few hundred.
Try 20-24 bucks
I have a background in electronics engineering and they make red, green and BLUE LED's including a multichip WHITE LED that can do any color imaginable by adjusting the amount of current to the red, green and blue dies inside the clear plastic dollop they're placed in. And all are available in high intensity. The present coloring is merely reflective of older parts.
It IS possible though to do any color and quite brightly at that. Several of the "jumbotron" type designs use these "white" LED's to do their public display teevee thing. They're not cheap though.
I'm sure it might be possible that the electronic signs might be able to display a color other than red but I don't know. Hey? is there anyone out there who knows if the R-142s can display message in colors other than red?
BMTJeff
Yeah. The R44 and R46 side signs are AWFUL--besides not displaying the route colors, they're hard to read from an angle, or from a distance, and they're UGLY! The R142 digital side signs are an improvement--easier to read, not too ugly. But still no route colors.
As for those front digital signs--all red. Couldn't they have had all green and all purple too? Nah, I guess not.
:) Andrew
Does anyone have or know where I can get a trackmap of the HBLR? Is there one available yet?
I have one,,it is rather large..contact me on smokiecat@webtv.net
Steve
The platform level maps at Times Sq and Queens Plaza stations have new maps. They look the same as the old ones, but there is a dotted orange line between 21st and 36st. The Queens Plaza area is circled in gray, and there is a note at the bottom about E,F,R reroutes through the tunnel. The B has also been removed from the Queensbridge line stops, looks like permanent weekend service to 145th.
A dotted orange Lion, Lions don't have dots. Lepards have spots and tigers have stripes. Zebras have stripes. Dalmations have spots, close to dots.
I do agree withyour theory about the TA easeing riders into acceptance.
Maybe thats how NIMBYs should be handled. Its just a tempory service change until the Fracus Switching Johnson Rods are Meshed with the Dumpsludge Eliminators. Only On weekends ,off peak hours, and holidays and/or as needed.
avid
They still didn't bold the B from 7th Av to 145th (It now runs there all the same times as it does from Pacific to 47-50, which is in bold.)
The 7th floor food court at the manhattan mall will be closing soon. That means no more lunch hour express elevators, and no more great view of the B'wy/6th intersection (for bus spotting). The've already halved the size with a semi-permanant wall. The guy who takes out the trash told me the offices upstairs are expanding downward.
This is just plain ridicolous. What will people do if they get hungry while shop? There's just one other resturant:McDonalds.
You're telling me? The mall's main reason for existence is the food court! Here's why:
1 - Glass elevators
2 - Escalators scattered willy nilly
3 - Everyone goes for the food court
Result: On the way to the food court you will see most of the stores in the mall. You remember they're there and shop after eating. Why do you think the express elevators run only during lunch hour ON WEEKDAYS? People eat on weekends too, but the people on weekdays are less inclined to shop since they are coming from area offices.
[Result: On the way to the food court you will see most of the stores in the mall]
Nice touch, having the food court on the upper floor so that one has to go through and get an eyefull of all the floors to get to the food. The rest of the mall can only suffer for losing the food court.
It will certainly make it difficult to find a tenant for Sterns space, which is going away soon, too.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think you've got it backwards. Stern's is the big draw for the place. Currently, there is no retailer in place to take over, as there was when A&S was folded. Without an 'anchor store' to draw in people, the mall will not be very successful.
Sears is rumored to be interested.
-Hank
I think they are going to have a problem filling that space. Anything they put in there is going to have a rough time, IMO. The lack of the food court is not going to make it any easier. Sears is in terrible shape, they just announced plans to close 89 stores.
Peace,
ANDEE
Anything they put in there is going to have a rough time, IMO. The
lack of the food court is not going to make it any easier. Sears is in terrible shape, they just announced plans to close 89 stores.
Sears really isn't in bad shape. Only a handful of the 89 stores to be closed are regular department stores, and all or most of them are smaller, older outlets in less-desirable locations. Most of the stores being closed are freestanding Sears Hardware outlets. Sears Hardware is a relatively new concept, one that hasn't worked out well in many locations. Moreover, the Sears Hardware stores account for a very small portion of the main corporation's revenues.
JC Penney and K-Mart are in considerably worse shape than Sears.
Food court is now in session, the honorable Ida Blochunx presiding.
In most "malls" the "food court" exists solely to keep people, feeling hungry, from LEAVING the mall and then not coming back to shop, shop, shop until ya drop. It's a TRAP for mall customers to keep them from LEAVING. Perhaps the economics of this one location defies the rules since food court rents tend to be nothing compared to "retail espace" ... if Manhattan Mall attracts people just to eat and doesn't "do the numbers" then that might explain the situation.
If you think the likes of doubleclick and other cookie givers on the internet (I won't go even further off topic here by ranting on these issues, they gots nothing to do with subways - visit my site at nsclean.com if you care about this at all) pay attention to every move of the "shopper" - you'd be amazed at the statiscal stuff the malls play with as to what stays, what goes and who security hassles. :)
Seriously though, my point here is that if the "mall stats" showed the food court thing generated a lot of traffic that didn't also spend money in the other stores, then the food court is toast. Either that or Disney complained about shrinking sales at that fine Scottish restaurant named after the farmer who had a cow, EIEIO.
Either that or Disney complained about shrinking sales at that fine Scottish restaurant named after the farmer who had a cow, EIEIO.
Mc is Irish, Mac is Scottish.
I wish this could be explained to the coporate heads here, who insist on 'MacAfee'.
-Hank
Nice touch, having the food court on the upper floor so that one has to go through and get an eyefull of all the floors to get to the food. The rest of the mall can only suffer for losing the food court.
My guess is that the entire Manhattan Mall will close within a few years and be converted into office space. Business is not overwhelming, and the upcoming demise of Stern's sure isn't going to help. As others have noted, Manhattan may be the most verticially oriented city in the world, but people still don't like going beyond the ground floor to shop. The Manhattan Mall is an answer to a question no one has asked.
people still don't like going beyond the ground floor to shop
Well, especially not when the elevators (in their non-lunch-express mode) take forever to arrive, often don't have enough room to let you in when they do, and then once you're in, take forever to get you anywhere. Also, the escalators are arranged in such a way that seems to be as inconvenient as possible for going between floors. Macy's seems to do relatively well with many shopping floors, though I guess by the time you get to the 7th floor the crowds have thinned out considerably.
There's a different reason for their success as a multi-story facility, that is their worldwide fame and national advertising.
-Hank
Yup, it definately looks like the whole mall is going to close and be converted to office space. It's possible yet another connection (from the mall to PATH and NYCS) may be severed in the process. The grand days for Herald Square are over, well, except for Macy's which is the only thing not falling apart there.
I have a question (OT, but so is most of this thread):
Did A&S buy Gimbels, demolish it, and build A&S Plaza and their store, or did Gimbels build the mall when it was still around? I assume they built a new store behind the old one, demolished the old store and built the mall in front of it.
When did Saks 34th Street make way for Herald Center? Is there anything useful in the HC other than the DMV, Toys "R" Us and Daffy's?
Gimbels closed, their old building was gutted, by the German real estate developer that ran Gimbels into the ground, that building becam A & S Plaza. When Federated Merged with Macy*s and did away with the A & S name the mall became Manhattan Mall and the store became Sterns, another unit of Federated. They (Federated) only rent the space.
In between Saks 34th Street and Herald Center it was an EJ Korvettes which, I believe, opened in 1967. The building stood empty for many years before opening as Herald Center.
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe Herald Center completely replaced E.J. Korvettes. Don't know about Saks.
i belive the Manhattan mall was the old Gimbels building.
Yes, Herald Center is the former Korvettes 34th Street. Yes, Manhattan Mall is the former Gimbels building.
Guess I'll be having Chinese food (in Chinatown) more. I'm sure gonna miss Flamers, they had good food there. It's a hell of alot better than Wendy's.
They had good thick burgers that are flame broiled, and you got more for your $$ than Wendy's.
Sure gonna change my subway riding patterns. I guess once the bridge flip happens. So anyplace in Manhattan where I can get a good burger and fries and not drop more than $6 for it?
McDonald's is a ripoff., Wendy's wants a friggin $1.19 for their nuggets and biggie fries, some of'em want $1.59. Ya know, people in NYC shouldn't have to pay these over-inflated prices for such meager food.
Alright, I gotta stop my food rant now! :-o
There's always Gray's Papaya ay 72nd and Broadway. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
You didn't have to go there Bro!! :) I'm in Virginia and really do miss going to Gray's!!
Or Gray's at 8st and 6th ave or at 37th and 8th, but the one on 37 still has the $.50 dogs after 9pm, the one in the village always has $.75.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" "2 Dogs and a drink for $1.95 you can't beat that with a lead pipe."
You should take a look at the prices for a hot dog at Nathan's, both in the food court and one outside, inside "Roy Rogers". I believe a 1 hot dog, fries, drink combo is like $5+ or more. I want to avoid those street hot dog vendors, but with those kind of prices (and hardly anyone in the "Roy Rogers"'s Nathan's they are making me go somewhere else.
I also try to stay away from Riece (I think I'm mispelling it) owned
establishments. They are expensive and it has been said they have unsanitary conditions. Remember the rat in Dunkin Donuts incident?
It was at a Riece owned and franchised Dunkin Donuts.
For me, Manhattan is only good for two things. Subways and Chinatown.
The rest of it has alot to be desired for one on a shoestring budget.
I would spend whole days in Manhattan and hardly spend a dime. Manhattan isn't just about eating and shopping, you just haven't discovered that yet.
And I would spend very little of that time in Chinatown. The real Chinatown is too dirty and reeks of fishwater.
Lemme get this straight...you won't go to a chain-owned restaurant, but you'll gladly eat in Chinatown? I suppose you like to shop in dumpsters, but only the ones behind Macy's?
-Hank
You can get a burger deluxe at the New Big Apple/Encore diner at 28th & Madison for $4.95; kinda greasy, but that's how diner burgers are supposed to be. Easy access from the N, R, 6. I go there once or twice a week.
I go to Manhattan Mall a lot for lunch, too; I'm mostly going to miss the Great Steak & Potato Company, one of the few places outside RI that gives you malt vinegar for your fries :).
Greasy and easy access? EZ-in, EZ-out. :)
-Hank
Sounds a lot like White Castle to me.:-)
That is something I can't get in the US, vinegar on my fries. You will be drinking tea with milk next :)
Simon
Swindon UK
You will be drinking tea with milk next :)
Not bloody likely! You'll have to make a side trip to Rhode Island when you're in the US, where French fries without malt "vinegah" are considered inedible.
BTW, I paid a visit to Manhattan Mall on lunch today, and for anyone who hasn't been: the wall previously described blocks off everything east of the elevators and all restaurants east of Arthur Treacher's and Flamers, including Great Steak & Potato Co., Cucina di Capri, the Carribbean place, and few others I don't remember. Of course, that also means no more window seating. The glass overlooking the mall in the closed section has been frosted over. It was difficult to find a seat there at lunch when it was fully open; now it's totally impossible. The express elevators are already no more, as well. I ended up eating at Ranch 1 on Fifth Avenue.
Malt vinegar for your fries is also available at The Dog House on US route 13 in Wilmington, Delaware, on the northbound side just south of the Delaware Memorial Bridge. They've been in business for about fifty years now, and have excellent hot dogs, pizza, and the best turkey sub - fresh, on-premises roasted turkey - that I've ever eaten.
And you can keep your vinegar, thank you... I'll have my fries with ketchup, please.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would rather have them with mayo, but Doc says that's BAD.
-Hank
Great Steak and Potato Company are in alot of suburban malls, such as Roosevelt Field and Garden State Plaza.
Great Steak and Potato Company are in alot of suburban malls, such as Roosevelt Field and Garden State Plaza
Neither of which are walking distance from my office :(
No more Flamers! Geessh, this sucks.
The food court is needed, there aren't enough places to eat in Manhattan. Alright Dave Thomas, give NYC their 99 cent menu or you'll
be facing the wrath of an R40 at top speed!
I guess I better get more Tums since I won't be able to afford eating in Manhattan anymore!
Alright Dave Thomas, give NYC their 99 cent menu or you'll
be facing the wrath of an R40 at top speed!
Wendy's doesn't own the restaurants in NYC. If you want to complain, blame the franchisees.
If you want to face reality, don't go to the densest and most expensive place in the US.
Well a time ago all Wendy's were owned by Dave Thomas. Since then he has caved in and franchised out operations, which usually fouls up quality control as well as price control.
It's also an efficient way to run a chain. You have other people doing all the work opening a store, and you reap the benefits because they're opening YOUR store.
And it works for the franchisee because they make more money (even with the franchise fees) than if they had opened a no name store.
I always wished the mall would extend upward. (The elevators have provisions for 3 more floors)
When I was sitting in 1250 Bway Wed. waiting to take the drug test for the TA, I was looking across at the mall. Looks like there's some kind of cafeteria on the top floor. Then on those top floors, there's also the 3 story bridge to the building across 33rd St.
The Kids R-Us building also has a small mall, and there used to be a food court on top as well, but this closed a few years ago.
When I took my pre-Christmas tour through Macy's, I was surprised to see a McDonalds on the 7th floor. On the 8th Floor, the old luncheon was ripped out and was replaced by a regular clothing dept. and the only food there now is the Au Bon Pain, next to Santaland.
There is also a Burger King in the building on the basement level, but it is not connceted to the Cellar. It does connect to the subway entrance (that old store space on the stairway that was sealed up for years)
That's messed up. Whenever I go to Ranger games, I stop there to eat in order to save a few bucks at the garden. Food can be very expensive there.
Well as we do in this "crony capitalism" property owners like ones who own the Manhattan mall make a decision for their own benefit, not to those who visit and work in the Herald Square area.
As usual, we'll have to fork out more dough or go out of the way.
I think there are lots of cheap eateries around the 14th st-Union Square area.
Perhaps it'll make sense anyway, as the future "Q" and "W" will be running express on Broadway, and stop at 14th street.
Alot of store seem to be closing around Herald Square. It is no more a shopping mecca like it used to be. Now everybody shops in NE Midtown, particularly Lexington, Madison, and Fifth between 40th and 60th.
Well as we do in this "crony capitalism" property owners like ones who own the Manhattan mall make a decision for their own benefit, not to those who visit and work in the Herald Square area.
It's for everybody's benefit. They need to make money in order to make a living (they make more money than they need to survive, but that's how the world works), so do you seriously think that they will lose their own money out of the kindness of their own hearts to keep the food court open.
For one thing, the food court does not provide an essential service. There are other places to eat, and it's not like the patrons were poor people and the MM's prices were the only prices within their range.
For one thing, the food court does not provide an essential service. There are other places to eat, and it's not like the patrons
were poor people and the MM's prices were the only prices within their range.
It's entirely possible that the Manhattan Mall's management is happy to see the food court go. Food service operations create problems with odors, vermin, and waste disposal - note how many commercial For Rent signs say "No Food."
[...Herald Square. It is no more a shopping mecca like it used to be.]
And don't forget many of the smaller shops below 14th St.
But that's going waaaaaay back.
[Now everybody shops in NE Midtown, particularly Lexington, Madison,
and Fifth between 40th and 60th.]
Don't know about below 60th, but aren't the shops (or shall we say boutiques?) above 60th on Madison a bit pricey. Would a real New Yorker shop there, or just window shop (no question about the attractive layouts of all these new stores)? Just as in days gone buy, didn't real New Yorkers (including many of the rich) shop on Hester Street? And as an aside, I once read that the main shopping thoroughfare in Borough Park is vying to become what Hester Street once was. It would, of course, be nice to have the character and flavor of the old Hester recreated elsewhere. From the looks of the new shops on above-60th Madison Ave., it's not going to happen there.
That should have been Orchard street, of course, vice Hester.
Well it seems the only people who are shopping are those with money, they shop in the Lex/60th street area. Everything seems to be trending upscale lately. Most sucessful malls have upscale stores in them. Manhattan Mall didn't, and many point out that as it's failure.
The middle and lower classes of society don't spend as much money as they used to, it is only the rich who can afford to shop alot. At least this is the way Manhattan is going.
Fortunately in Queens, areas with stores gearing to the working class still do quite well (especially Elmhurst and Rego Park).
It's expensive to live in most parts of Manhattan, and those that live there have pricey upscale tastes. Only exception is in upper Manhattan and the lower East Side, alot of people from these areas shop locally or in what's left of Herald Square. Also tourists would rather shop or look in the exclusive stores on the east side.
[Fortunately in Queens, areas with stores gearing to the working class still do quite well (especially Elmhurst...]
Thanks for the tip. Love Elmhurst. Was a favorite stomping ground when I was growing up (lived in upper east nineties almost next to the 100th St. depot; all of my father's friends were Omnibus bus driver colleagues, from the "old country," and during the forties and fifties many of them gradually gave up the convenience of living near the depot to raise their young families in Elmhurst, Jackson Heights, Flushing, etc.) Can't wait to visit the mall on Queens Blvd. on my next trip up to NYC. And I hear Elmhurst hasn't lost its attraction for people from the "old country" either(different old countries, of course); it supposed to be one of THE most ethnically diverse areas in the world.
Speaking of Queens...I've liked the shopping in Forest Hills as well. I realize this area is a bit more upscale, but the average spending amount in stores is not that different. There are plenty of local shops and restaurants (I recommend Nick's (no relation) Pizza...best brick-oven style ever!), as well as a Barnes and Noble, Disney Store, and movie theaters. -Nick
There are plenty of local shops and restaurants (I recommend Nick's (no relation) Pizza...best brick-oven style ever!)
Completely off-topic, but Nick's is the best pizza I've ever had!
Completely off-topic, but Nick's is the best pizza I've ever had!
Right on, Ripta! Are you and others up for a subtalk luncheon this Friday over there? Maybe we'll see an LIRR train pass by before we go in. -Nick
I'll be at work in Manhattan :(. It will have to be stop on any Queens Blvd-related fantrip, though.
Have you ever seen the LIRR mosaic on the bank on the southeast corner of (I think) Queens Blvd & 70 Rd? It's actually a mosaic of Forest Hills, but Station Square and a passing LIRR train are prominently featured.
I'll be at work in Manhattan :(.
bummer! :( have anytime for a luch railfanning period? feel free to e-mail me if so.
It will have to be stop on any Queens Blvd-related fantrip, though.
MOST DEFINITELY!! :-)
Have you ever seen the LIRR mosaic on the bank on the southeast corner of (I think) Queens Blvd & 70 Rd? It's actually a mosaic of Forest Hills, but Station Square and a passing LIRR train are prominently featured.
Hmmm...its been awhile since I have been in Forest Hills, and I don't recall whether or not I've seen that...but I will look for it next time I am there :) -Nick
Will you please reconsider you're method of quoting. You don't distinguish between what you post and what you're quoting. Use quotation marks at least.
"Use quotation marks at least."
How's that? Sorry for any confusion :) -Nick
bummer! :( have anytime for a luch railfanning period? feel free to e-mail me if so.
I only get 45 minutes; maybe a progress check on the Broadway local stations while the renovations roll along.
Hmmm...its been awhile since I have been in Forest Hills, and I don't recall whether or not I've seen that...but I will look for it next time I am there :)
I'll try to ride by there tonight at get a more specific location.
It's on the Greenpoint Bank at 71 Rd & Queens Blvd.
Thanks, Ripta! If I am in NYC on Friday (not sure yet) I will check it out. -Nick
Geeez....I'm FAR from rich and I manage to shop quit reguarly.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>... or in what's left of Herald Square. <<<
God, you make it sound as if it was Dresden after the blitz. Lighten' up will 'ya it's NOT THAT BAD. Also, as a point of reference, Macy*s gets many more tourists than sister store Bloomies.
Peace,
ANDEE
Alot of store seem to be closing around Herald Square. It is no more a shopping mecca like it used to be. Now everybody shops in NE Midtown, particularly Lexington, Madison, and Fifth between 40th and 60th.
I thought Macy's, HMV, and H&M in Herald Square do quite well, as do the stores on 34th Street itself. My impression is that it's primarily the malls that haven't been doing great.
You are correct, as an operations manager at Macys I have observed the exact same thing. The store finished (macys) 7% ahead of plan this holiday season.
Peace,
ANDEE
You should join the press corps. $5 all-you-can-eat :)
-Hank
You should join the press corps. $5 all-you-can-eat :)
Of course, you also have to WATCH the RANGERS.
-Hank
Since I started working around there, the Manhattan Mall is going to hell (naturally). The Barnes and Noble closed, followed by the Au Bon Pain on the 3rd floor, and now, the whole food court.
OK, Manhattan Mall, you just eliminated my main reasons for entering your building, and I bet quite a few other people's as well.
www.forgotten-ny.com
They closed the B&N? DAMN!!! That was the only place I could find most of my books for school within city limits. The one near 71/Continental is known by all 1600 at my school, so books sell out quickly.
That's why you should use Amazon.com. The discounts and lack of taxes make up for standard shipping charges. BN.com still charges tax, so you would only save when purchasing more items (because the extra shipping charges for extra items are smaller than for the first item).
That's why you should use Amazon.com. The discounts and lack of taxes make up for standard shipping charges. BN.com still charges tax, so you would only save when purchasing more items (because the extra shipping charges for extra items are smaller than for the first item).
Amazon will lose that advantage if the Streamlined Sales Tax proposal, now under consideration by a multistate committee, ever sees the light of day. It would call for reciprocal enforcement of sales taxes by all participatory states.
Sales Taxes suck.
And I'm not just saying that because all taxes suck (they do, but they are a necessary evil) they're regressive.
Income taxes are the way to go.
In fact, thanks to the dumb management of the Manhattan Mall I'll have no reason to even get out of the subway at 34th street. Heck, perhaps the only part of NYC I'll be hanging out is in Chinatown.
I'm value minded and don't go to Lex and 59th because I don't have 500 bucks to spend on useless luxuries. I go to NYC mainly for the following
#1-Riding the subways of course!
#2-Going to Chinatown and getting great music, or other food or garment goods, real cheap. And trying to find a beautiful girl that is "fresh from China".
#3-Hanging out around midtown, particularly Manhattan Mall, usually a place to rest and sit down, use the restroom, and have a cheap meal.
Obviously there will be one less reason to come to Manhattan.
You can all thank Simon mall management corp (who owns the mall).
I may thank them personally sometime next week. :-0
Set out early this morning. After printing off 7 business cards with my website address, I walked to Friendship Heights and bought a one day pass with the inaguration design. Took the red line to Gallery Place where I took the yellow line to Archives for some photos of that station. I took the next train, a green line, to Congress Heights. OK Wayne, Congress Heights has Arch II (same as Petworth and Columbia Heights) and an island platform, enterances on both sides of Alabama Avenue at 13th Street, SE. Enterance pod at the south end of the station, trains get up to 50 MPH between Anacostia and Congress Heights. In the mezzanine of the station, there were two railfans, both of them had heard of this site.
They had Gilligs running on the W3 bus and I got some photos. Then, I stuck my head in the tent on top of the Kiss and Ride spaces where ceremonies were going on. The speeches conveyed the same stuff. It took patience, hard work, and help from G-d to build this station, so on and so forth. That was probably the most Christain station opening I will ever attend.
I passed up on the ribbon cutting for a chance to get the railfan window on the ceremonial train. On the way downstairs, I met another railfan who introduced me to Lindsay Layton, the Washington Post transit reporter. I managed to do this because I overheard the words nycsubway.org. We went downstairs where there was a waiting train and I got the railfan window. Ms. Layton talked with the railfan I met on the way down, and me and another railfan talked while glancing out the window. The dignitaries and WMATA officials rode in the last car of the train.
We stopped at the intermediate stations on the way to Branch Avenue. Upon arrival at Branch Avenue, we alighted and many people went upstairs to another sfuffy tent to listen to more speeches. Ms. Layton asked me some questions, how did I like the ride and why was I so interested in trains, so I now might be in the media spotlight with heypaul, I will check tomorrow morning. I gave her my website address and a few others (TransiTalk, NYC Transit Family). At the top of the escalator at Branch Avenue, someone called out to me. It was Chao Hwa Chen! Ms. Layton went to the ceremonies, Chao Hwa and I walked around, then excused himself to go to Union Station, he is going on the field trip tomorrow, I walked around a little more and decided to see if we could see the yard, but were told we couldn't by the railfan who was talking with Ms. Layton on the train. I decided it was time to get photos of the other stations.
I took the train at Branch Avenue up to Suitland. Suitland (Wayne) is a station which me and the other railfans there decided was in an open cut. Island platform, peaked roof design with a skylight in the peak. First impression was it was very much like Franconia-Springfield. There is a to be covered bridge to the parking garage, it is open but not covered. Mezzanine is over the south end of the platform
I then went back to Branch Avenue. Branch Avenue has the same roof and platform configuration as Suitland, except the mezzanine is over the north end of the platform. The tracks south of the station lead to layup tracks where operators are currently reporting, a yard will be built there by mid-2002 with 10 tracks for storage of 116 cars and one track for maintenance viechles. The yard will cover 37 acres. Crossovers are located both to the north and south sides of the station.
Went to the other end of the train I had just come in on and took that to Naylor Road, definately the most interesting of the 5 stations. It is an elevated station, the only one on the line. There are bridges on both sides of the station made out of concrete. The station won an award presented by the Portland Cement Association for the excellent use of concrete. There is an island platform with a peaked roof and a diamond crossover south of the station. The mezzanine is below the center of the platform.
Then, I took the next train to Southern Avenue. This station is very much like Grosvenor-Strathmore on the red line. It is in an open cut with an island platform and peaked roof over the mezzanine and west (Greenbelt bound) side of the station. There are 22 bus bays at the station on both sides of the open cut. There is a parking garage with a covered bridge leading to it on the south side of the station. A crossover is located to the north of the station.
I have already discussed Congress Heights.
Speeds vary. The maximum speed is 65 MPH between Branch and Southern, 50 MPH between Southern and Anacostia.
The 5000 series cars from CAF are not ready. Four sets (8 cars) will enter service February 4th, operating out of Greenbelt, until then, cars will be borrowed from other lines meaning some 4 car trains during rush hour.
MY COMMENTS:
All seemed to be done and things were working well. An escalator at Branch Avenue was briefly out of service, the canopy for the walk to the garage at Suitland was not finished, wood benches were in the shelters on platforms, and as Ballston/1C mentioned, trains would stop and then pull up two car lengths at Branch Avenue. All trains at Branch Avenue that I saw used the "outbound" track except for the ceremonial run. It is a very scenic run, as I told Ms. Layton of the Washington Post.
I will post tomorrow if I make the article.
Pictures to come soon on Oren's Transit Page (http://www.orenstransitpage.com/).
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/
It's been a great pleasure to meet Oren (WMATAOAGH). He is the first SubTalker I meet in the Washington Area.
I am amazed that Oren has such a plentiful knowledge I don't have at his age.
Chao-Hwa
I missed Oren and Chao-Hwa, but I'll add my two cents -- an awesome route. The stations are interesting architecturally, probably most similar to Franconia (as Oren said). Metro provided a catered lunch in a tent at Branch Ave, and they had pennants, posters, etc. for free, in addition to their travelling gift shop (I bought a GMC RTS-03 squareback bank).
I took the Metro there from Friendship Heights and took the 32 bus back from Southern Ave, which is also an interesting ride. A neat afternoon!
The new stations are great -- the six-mile route is quite a scenic ride and I'd recommend it to anyone.
Chris
Can anyone tell me what times R-142s will be leaving Pelham Bay tomorrow? I want to ride them express down the Lex! Let's see what these babies can really do!
I recently sent out an e-mail to all the SubTalkers who expressed an interest in this summer's Field Trip to Chicago. An e-mail mailing list seems to be in order since not everybody keeps up with every message posted to SubTalk, and I wouldn't want anybody to miss some crucial bit of news or information. (Thanks to Kevin Walsh for the idea.)
If you're interested in the field trip but have not recieved my e-mail, then let me know so I can add you to the list. (There's no obligation, and you can cancel at any time.) Also, do me a favor and include your first and last name -- as opposed to merely a SubTalk handle -- so I can keep the list somewhat organized in Outlook.
(Confidential to Doug aka BMTman: The e-mail address I used for you just bounced back undeliverable from AOL. Let me know your correct e-mail address so I can add you. Thanks.)
That's all for now...
-- David
Chicago, IL
And they got it all correct. Since it repeats every half hour, watch the first 10 minutes of each broadcast and it should be mentioned, followed by something on how the city plans on getting money after the failure of the transportation bond act.
Well today I did it, I took two trains through the 63rd street connector. The first was an R32 E train, which I got on at WTC.
There were some railfans at the front window, so I had company.
One of them was handing out pamphlets about the change.
Our conductor was very talkative about the changes.
At W4th we went straight through the switch instead of switching tracks, and rolled right in at the lower level. It felt weird being on an E, and going through the 6th ave local. Unfortunately, the ride after 34th street was very slow. This was around 12:45pm. There were many, many trains ahead of us, and we had to wait for as much as 5 minutes at some red signals.
We were held at 47-50 for what seemed like an eternity, and the conductor started closing doors, unaware that the T/O was just outside the train. Fortunately someone held the doors, and yelled to the conductor to keep them open. Why that happened who knows? The T/O gave the C/R a buzz, that usually tells him we are being held.
Then there was confusion with the conductor, he had to be informed several times that we still had a red signal.
Finally we move, and we're crawling all the way. And that R46 E is still in front of us.
After 57th we stop again for awhile, as an R comes in from Broadway.
Finally, but slowly, we move through the 63rd street line.
The speed in the connector was not impressive at all, it was a crawl with alot of GT's. The tunnel looked nice though, and hopefully the vandals won't mess it up. Also noticed the bellmouths for Sunnyside connection. The tunnel was fairly short, what a shame it took so long to build such a short stretch of tunnel. Got off at 36th and crossed the street to the other side.
I went back to Manhattan on an F, and saw several work trains at Queens Plaza on local and express track (Queensbound).
Later I took an R from Canal, which ran on the express track till 34th due to construction. They seem to be making alot of headway on the uptown local stations.
The speed on the Bway express was nothing that great though. Unlike the ride from 6th ave, the ride on the Broadway to 63rd street connector was fast. We didn't have to stop at any red signals.
It sure felt weird riding an R46 through the 63rd street line, since I've only had R40s and 32's on there. The connector itself wasn't any faster though.
Believe it or not the most speed my R got was in between stations on the Queens local. Got off at Roosevelt, where a load of people from the 7 went downstairs, presumably to catch their rerouted trains.
Manhattan bound 7's were running express, due to construction. There was a work train and workers near 111st.
Also there was a huge fire and smoke plume visible just north of Flushing (this was around 4pm).
It looked very close to Flushing, and I walked I few blocks north of N.Blvd.
On the corner of Linden and 31st a small warehouse was burning, it was a pretty large fire but no 880 didn't cover it.
The area up aroudn LInden (by Pathmark) is pretty bad, so it doesn't suprise me there was a fire. I was going to walk to Pathmark but they had alot of the streets closed, so I forgot about that.
Also I forgot to mention when I was in Manhattan mall yesterday it appears alot of stores are closing, and half the food court is closed. I guess without Stern's the mall is going to fold, and be converted to office space. Shame, that food court was such a great deal. There aren't enough reasonable places to eat in Manhattan as it is (Wendy's 99c nuggets, haha not in NYC!)
So, that was you. Ah, another face behind the name. I went through on an R later on, as well as one time after taking the shuttle bus from 23/ely. I have two new block transfers to add to my collection. The shuttle (R-40) was not switching tracks, it stayed on T1/G3 in both directions.
It was interesting to be racing behind the shuttle on the adjacent track. Never seen both trains going the same direction on that line before.
Wendy's 99c nuggets, haha not in NYC!
I haven't the foggiest about what you're talking about.
Whenever I go to Wendy's my favorite is to get 20 nuggets, it never costs more than $3.96+tax.
So where is this place that charges $1.19 for items on the 99¢ menu?
Why not? The Main Line'll need more trackage if/when Grand Central access is given. There already is a track that branches off and passes right over the main lines around Hunterspoint.
Cost. The whole line would need to be electrified, and at least 6 grade crossings would need to be eliminated. Add nimbyism, and this plan will never come to fruition.
I'd MUCH rather see it turned into a subway.
:-) Andrew
Since the East River tunnels are the bottleneck, you would need a new tunnel, connecting with the lower-numbered tracks, first.
On a separate subject, what's wrong with grade crossings and using DMs once the tunnel is built?
This really pisses me off. The MTA ordered a bunch, and the holes don't line up with the lights. Did they order more? No! They took a hole puncher and added holes in the appropriate spots, often right next to the painfully obvious pre-printed hole. They also attempted to shift it into the correct position, often resulting in part of the map hanging out of the edge of its spot.
I just saw the report done by Paul Fleuranges. Many riders complain about not getting enough notices. It seems the 63/Bway shuttle was still in place as there was a shot of a Slant and a R46 E train arriving into 21St at the same time :):). I will be there to observe it personally tomorrow and maybe Ill see if I can get a R142a down the Lex express.......
Train#1993Mike
Not enough notice? Signs were plastered everywhere and full page ads were put in most newspapers almost every day this week.
Perhaps these idiots simply need to pay attention more.
We had quite a few grumpy people bothering the T/O with stupid questions. One lady complained about the slow ride, saying she wanted to know exactly how many stops to Union Turnpike. And this was while the T/O was operating the train. Needless to say, the old nag was getting on his nerves.
Oh, so he's on 2 now? He used to be NY1's Straphanger's Report, which I used to catch every weekend at 11 PM years ago. They said they were putting it on hiatus for a while, but then it never came back.
He also reported EVERY G.O. for the entire weekend about every hour on weekends. Right down to "Downtown R trains skip 49st due to track work until 5 on Monday morning."
Most of the original NY1 reporters have gone on to bigger and better things in reporting for the regular NYC stations. And their replacements at NY1 have not picked up the slack. But that is to be expected from a low budget operation.
NY1 is too liberal! That's the bottom line. Eyewitness news rules!
Maybe Bill Beutel can anchor on NY1. Since the whole operation is on tape, Bill can do out-take after out-take till he doesn't flub any words!
I'd prefer Kristina Abernathy from the Weather Channel, She can flub anything she wants for as long as she wants. She could even talk about Transit Items too. If she wanted to.
avid
You've got some nerve talking about a legend like that!
Which one?
Bill Buetel or Kristina Abernathy?
avid
Kristina Abernathy is young. Bill Beutel is old. Take a wild guess.
Good 'ol Bill 'Sinial' Beutel, at it again, huh?
I saw a segment of the new Ken Burns series on PBS about the History of Jazz and noticed that the show on Louis Armstrong used footage of Chicago Els on the loop -- as well as Trolleys -- during the the "golden age of Jazz", which was the 20's and 30's.
Anybody else see this. And can the 'pros' on Chicago equipment ID the cars that were shown?
BMTman
Here's the story from the Sunday Washington Post about the new stations on the Green Line.
For those of you who read it, you will realize I didn't make the article. But getting to PG County at 5:45 AM is out of the question. My claim to fame for this opening is having the railfan window of the ceremonial train.
I wouldn't worry about not making the story. As a writer for our local newspaper, I usually do quick interviews with a couple dozen people when I cover a story with a crowd. You only have room to fit one, maybe two, quotes in before the article looks like a collection of soundbites.
The Sunday Washington Post had a article, and a interview with the guy who rode the 1st train, was that you?
If it was the Stuart Kass guy from Bethesda, the answer is no.
Unfortunately, was Mom was taken ill early Saturday morning (she's better) and spent many hours at the Hospital to see that she was getting the proper care.
I did of course miss avid's group that met at WTC around 8:30. I wasn't able to make it till an hour after but rode an E train through to Jamaica. I enjoyed the funky turn onto the 6th Ave Line @ West 4th Street and the 'sparkling clean' 63rd Street Connector. The concrete still has its tan coloring -- yet to turn black through years of steel dust and debris.
At Jamaica I jumped on a J to B'way Junction to get a Canarsie-bound L train. An interesting GO was in effect there where the L trains were terminating at Eastern Parkway (J platforms) due to MOW crews working on the northbound (P2) track at B'way Junction. There was a diesel (didn't get the number) with a flatcar that contained large spools of cable. I'd guess this is related to the new CBTC systems needed for the coming R-143's.
BMTman
hey doug... i hope your mother gets better fast...
avid, his friend frank, subway surf, and i made up the early bird crew... it was my first time meeting avid, and i was quite taken by his knowledge of the system and his ideas for new service and the lengthening of trains...
early yesterday morning, we were not plagued with many delays... we ran through the connector with an r-32 e... then went to 57th & 7th and rode an r-46 r through the connector...
honestly, i was more interested in meeting avid... we decided to coordinate posts, so that we could create the greatest amount of confusion in the shortest possible time... we are working on a mini series about the kingfish's nomination for secretary of offense in the bush cabinet...
[hey doug... i hope your mother gets better fast...]
Paul, thanks for caring.
BMTman
Glad to hear your mother is doing better... we were hoping to have you, heypaul, and Pork with us today on our run through the connector... especially come lunch time, when some of the guys were hungry for some grilled bacon, ham, and pickled pigs feet sandwiches... seriously, glad Mom's on the mend, give her our best.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris, thanks for the kind words. She should be coming out of the hospital tomorrow morning.
BTW, I think SubBus was hoping to meet up with you guys, but got there a bit later and rode the 63rd St. Connector anyhow.
It would have been great to get together, but priorities had to be tended to.
BMTman
I was glad to hear you were able to to make the connector, It was a true indication your Mom was doing better. Maybe next time? I have a few questios for you about the East New York area.
Heypaul assures me you have the answers, if not that you'll create them.
avid
Found a table comparing passangers per line mile in the world. PATH and MTA were very close. SIR was way on the bottom of the list.
http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-wrail.htm
Arti
He began to swim from the depths of unconsiousness when the steaty tatoo of the deep base drum began to echo within his brain. Its beat was captivating. He began to be aware of changing states. The first, one of carefree secutity to near panic realizing his and his traveling companion situation.
With a tremendous effort of will powerhe choked back the desire to cry out the warning alert. He concentrated for what seemed an eternity, but finally was able to open one sleep stuck eye, then the other eye soon opened as well. His blood shot slits, with dark circles beneath, began t0 scan the immeadiate area. He was trying to locatet the source of the drumming. The druming was soon joined by the melodic sound of pre-columbian instruments. He recognized the woodwinds, the percusion, and the stringed. These were instruments that he knew never played at Carnagie Hall. When he realized they were not in danger, he looked down at his partners prostrate form close by.
Heypaul, reached out, with his foot, in the homemade Ho Chi Minh sandals. His yellowish green fungus infected toenails displayed, and poked BMTman in the rib cage. Nothing. No response. Heypaul nudged BMTman again, still nothing! Heypaul tried a third and forth time and as a slow, devilish grin began to form on his lips. Heypaul wondered, just how hard he'd have the nudge him, BMTman began to stir.
A frightened look peered up at heypaul. Heypaul signaled him for silence by holding a finger to his grinning lips.
BMTman heard the music and druming, he was concerned.
They were both fully alertand on their feet. They began to move towards the source of the music. It was about 150 meters to their south. They moved with stealth, years of training, to move without being seen was their forte'.
Soon they could make out the source of the music. They were not alone. A great crowd of young maidens and men were all about the crude musicians. Many of the young men were musclebound and proud.
They move with the beat. Heads nodding, shoulders twitching as the shifted their weight from leg to leg. The maidens danced as well. Some maidens danced with a unique style not repeated by any other of the celebrants.
This was, with out a doubt, a fertility rite.
BMTman wispered to heypaul his concern for their safety and suggested they leave.
Heypaul, a student of antropology, refused. He then took his tape recorder out, truned it on, and edged closer.
Shamed, BMTman followed closly behind, covering heypauls back.
Soon they found a spot where they were affored concealment. Heypaul recorded several minutes of the hypnotic music.
When he was satisfied he had enough they began to withdraw.
In his haste, BMTman met the gaze of one of the young maidens. Eye contact was made over the distance.
A look of fear washed over the young maides face. The look was not lost on the young men in the gathering.
The music continued.
Heypaul and BMTman increased the distance between they and the music.
They both knew that for them to survive, they must be on the other side of the river before nightfall.
They hoped and prayed for a diversion.
They both heard the thunder at the same time. Could this be what they needed? The thunder began to grow louder. That could only mean it was getting closer.
They both felt the sudden drop in temperature. That drop that occurs just before a downpour. The cooler air wafted over their unshaven faces.
They constantly checked over their shoulders. The music ceased. The dancers dispersed, and many were following heypaul and BMTman. Some were moving much faster than others. When heypaul and BMTman reached the area where they had slept, they noticed how close to a precipice they were.
Heypaul and BMTman stared into each others eyes. Each clinched his right hand into a fist. Each extended it towards the other and touched. The salute of comrades of travel.
The rampaging mob was closing behind them .
Both knew their timeing would have to be perfrect if they were to reach the other side of the river before nightfall.
The breeze on their unshaven faces grew stronger as the thunder grew closer. Soon it reached gale proportions. Both thought of the scene from Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid.
When the thunder sudden turned absolutly silent, they made their leap.
Some of the mob followed, but they were safe. They went with the flow. The motion seemed to have calmed the few mob members that followed.
They were on the train to Brooklyn. The tapes intact. They would see sundown on the other side of the river.
avid
[stage direction: heypaul stands with his arms crossed and his right hand on his chin... he moves his head about 45 degrees to the left and in his best jack benny imitation ]
well........
Unique New York, its all in the eye of the beholder.
Were you clubbing in Manhattan tonight by any chance?
Speaking of clubbing in New York, I'll hopefully be visiting NYC for a few days this summer and I'd like to check out the club scene while I'm there. (I've been to NYC a few times before but didn't get to do any clubbing because the friends I usually stay with aren't really into that sort of thing.) I'd be curious to check out some of the more hard-core underground clubs in the city so I can report back to my Chicago friends about the New York's club scene. Not sure if this will mean anything to anybody here, but just for comparison, my favorite clubs here in Chicago include Red Dog, Crobar, Transit (yes, that's the name of the place -- it's right under the Lake Street L!), Big Wig, and the now-defunct Shelter. Twilo and Limelight are some names of New York clubs that I've seen mentioned elsewhere, and I'm wondering what other places there are as well.
Not sure if there's many types on this board who are into clubbing, but I figure it's worth a shot.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Just let me know when you're coming...
Will do. My dates are fairly tentative right now, but I'll mostly likely plan my trip to coordinate with the SubTalk field trip to Boston.
BTW, if you (or anybody else who's interested) makes it to Chicago for our field trip here, I'll be happy to show off some of Chicago's better underground clubs one night. Hope you like Chicago-style house music...
-- David
Chicago, IL
BTW, if you (or anybody else who's interested) makes it to Chicago for our field trip here, I'll be happy to show off some of Chicago's better underground clubs one night. Hope you like Chicago-style house music...
Would I need a Fake ID for these things?
I actually asked my mother if I should get a fake ID if we go to Vegas, and she said go ahead!
Would I need a Fake ID for these things?
No, you'd need a real one.
Chicago bars and clubs are notorious for being hard-asses about carding people at the door, and they go over every ID with a fine-tooth comb, sometimes even using special lights and keeping a photo record. And they WILL call police. Neighborhood NIMBY groups are constantly looking for any excuse to get a bar or club shut down by City Hall, and no Chicago bar is going to risk losing their liquor license due to a single fake ID getting past the door.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The reason that they block admissions is that they're too damn lazy to card people at the bar.
It's too bad people from 18-21 tend to be totally apathetic, and that the spirit of protest from the 60s is gone. Hopefully a good conservative movement will revive it as a reaction and the events of 1986 can reversed.
You've obviously never been to a popular bar on a Friday or Saturday night. Asking bartenders to card people makes about as much sense as asking the conductors on the Lexington Avenue line to walk through the trains and collect fares on board during rush hour.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It took that comment for you to figure it out.
The solution would be to eliminate carding and abolish the drinking age. It would also lower the incidence of alcoholism among people in their teens and twenties and allow law enforcement to fight drunk driving and other actual (as opposed to imaginary) social problems.
It was the Reagan Administration that threatened to withhold federal funds for Law enforcement that forced states to raise their drinking age to 21 if they were below it. You my vote,you may shed blood or die in a war , but youmay not have a Bud. You ma be married and/or have children, but no Gin. You may also pay taxes, Federal, state, and local, but drinking Bourbon is disterbin'.
The wind up is crime supplies a service.
Good luck
avid
You mean the Blues, of course.
Actually, House is a relatively new animal (as opposed to Blues and Gospel, the other two music genres that Chicago has contributed to the world). It started out as an offshoot of disco back in the mid-80's, mainly in the city's underground dance clubs. It's rather hard to decribe, except that all House music uses a particular style of beat so that various selections can be mixed and sampled by DJ's into an infinite variety of possible combinations. House eventually caught on in places like London and New York, and now each city seems to have its own local flavor of House. (Not to be confused with other types of underground dance music, such as Techno in London and Trance in Detroit, among others.) The House scene in Chicago had faded for a few years, but is now stronger than ever with a lot of new local talent entering the scene.
(I'm hardly an expert on underground music trends, though, so anybody who knows more than I do is welcome to eleborate and/or make corrections.)
Nothing against the Blues, mind you... There are plenty of great Blues clubs here in Chicago and there is still a ton of local blues talent here. Bands like the Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin owe their entire livelihoods to the Chicago Blues scene.
-- David
Chicago, IL
What kind of undergound stuff are you into? I'm into Jungle, House, and Trance. When I get enough money some day, I'm going to buy my own turntables and spin that stuff myself (especially Jungle, that's my favorite type of music).
In Atlanta, a "mainstream" club for electronica is The Masquerade, but there are lots of truly underground clubs with no names whatsoever. One of them is a French resturant during the day.
My tastes are fairly broad, but I especially like Chicago-style House music, and I've lately developed a very strong interest in the Techno/Trance music that is coming out of Detroit. I also like a lot of the London-based Techno sound as well as Trance music in general. I'm not really familiar with Jungle or Garage, and I'm not a big fan of Hip-Hop.
That said, within each of those genres (or any other music genre, for that matter) there is the good stuff, and there is the crap. I like the good stuff. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Jungle is pretty much Drum 'n Bass. It most likely started in London. Atlanta has a big underground Jungle following. The best DJ who spins jungle is the British DJ, Aphrodite. He's awesome. You can usually find his CDs in normal CD stores, too.
They moved with Stealth.
Kingfish was unawear he was being follow.
He felt a familar comfort at the Main Street Station. Its flavor of the orient brought back memories. The service, weekend passes, hangovers.
As the Kingfish headed for the exit gate he spotted a youth wearing head phones, getting his dose of tinitus.
BMTman, with his Fuji quickclick camera in hand, and heypaul with is tape recorder, followed closely behind.
The youth, Asia-American , was dressed like most youths of the day, a baggie style. The walk , the slouch, all the youthful style of the day.
What really attracted the Kingfish was the youths hair.
It was multicolored, and sticking straight up. It was about five to six inches high and ended in mulitple points.
Blue,yellow,red,green,pink, and pure white.
The Kingfish stopped in his tracks. Tilted his head to one side. He shook his head as if denying the site or trying to lose a memory.
The youth was suprised when the caped figure approached and began to speak to him.
BMTman and heypaul found a location nearby. they began to record the Meeting.
Kingfish spoke softly about the dangers of loud music using headphones and the permenant damage that could result.
Their conversation went on calmly . This surprised BMTman and heypaul. Usually the Kingfish bossed and tried to dominate all he spoke to or at.
When they were about to part, the youth asked why the Kingfish didn't say anything about his colorful hair style.
The Kingfish took a paternal additude. He put a hand on the youths shoulder and Spoke.
All the while the recorder and camera were going.
The Kingfish said, "It is possible and probible for youths, now and in the past to do silly thinks or make mistakes in life." That he said doesn't make them bad people.
The Kingfish continued, "When I was in Asia, in the service I got drunk once with my buddies. They carried me back the base. The next morning they told me about the great Time we had. They said we went clubing, some real holes in the ground. At one, they said I had sexual relations with a Parrot. Nobodies perfect. YOU COULD BE MY LONG LOST SON!
With taht revelation , BMTman jumped out of his hidding place and Flashed the camera on the Youth and the Kingfish.
heypaul and Bmtman ran for the number 7 train and made their escape.
The Kingfish was furious. He turned red. He wrapped his cape around himself and left.
The youth ran for his life, hoping he'd never run into that crazy man in the cape again.
avid
I started out in the Bronx taking a R62A 1 train to Dyckman. I forgot there was a GO replacing the 1 train with a shuttle bus between Dyckman and 137 Street. I walked a couple of blocks to get the A train. Took the R44 A train to West 4 Street where I got some breakfast with a friend.
After waiting for a while on the uptown 8th Av line platform for the E train, I heard someone say that they're arriving on the 6th Av line platform. This made sense to me and I don't know why I didn't think to go down there before. Took the 1217 E train out of WTC which was an R32. We were tailing a F train rather closely. The signals on 6th Av are pretty quick. At 47/50th Streets we hit major congestion. It appeared that the tower was not on automatic. There must have been like 10 people running around in it. We crawled through to 57th Street and then to Lex. The T/O had enough time to get out of the cab and strech every time we hit a red signal, that's how long it was taking for them to clear. I noted the bellmouths in place for connection to a 2nd Av subway. We got some decent speed the rest of the way. I assume it was Roosevelt, but someone requested the T/O to call in what train we were. Express run after Roosevelt was nice.
Left the 1217 E train out of WTC at 1338 which means that it was about 28 minutes late. The T/O said they were supposed to be back at Parsons by 1310. Got an R40M/R42 mixed breed J train on the lower level. I took that to 121 Street to catch the Q55 bus (RTS number 9168) instead of taking the J train to Myrtle-Bway or to get the L train (or shuttle bus). I kicked myself later for not going to Eastern Parkway to go check out the work in progress there.
There were lots of confused people looking around like they were in some foreign country. When we got to Roosevelt Island one kid screamed out f*ck :) There was a blind man telling everyone about the new connector and helping them with directions to get where they're going. It would have been nice to see some more MTA personel out there helping people.
There was a railfan sharing the window with me on the E train... was it one of you guys? :) I was the 6'2" kid with long hair wearing blue :)
Shawn.
Shawn,
That was you??? Well, the guy sharing the window was me.
I have to tell you that the MTA blew it big time on this one - public relations wise. When are they going to learn that, aside from us subway buffs, no one ever reads those notices (or those who do - ever understand them).
Hehe hey cool. It's a small world. Two people sharing a railfan window and both happen to be SubTalkers :).
Damn shame people can't read or don't choose to read those sings. All they do is complain whenever there's a GO on their line. 63rd Street reroutes were well announced. There was notices in stations, even some that don't directly serve the E, F and R routes. I remember seeing a posted in the 23rd Street 7th Avenue IRT station. There were ads in the newspaper and it was mentioned on TV also.
Shawn.
So what is the TA to do? Short of stopping each and every person at a turnstile and asking them specifically "where are you going so I can advise you of each and every service diversion", there is no way to have TA personell escorting passengers to their destination. Plus it has been frequently discussed on this board that many riders do not speak English! No way to help them. On Saturday nite, I was on a F train from 23/Ely to 23rd/6th. Lots of people got on at Lex and Fifth destined to 47/50 so they could cross over to the Queens bound side. I heard bitching about the service change. I told somebody that the red and white service notices are all over the stations in Queens by the booths and on the platforms. Their response: I have no time to read them and miss my train!
Their response: I have no time to read them and miss my train!
Some people are just complete MORONS! (did anyone say "flogging"?)
Oh also I rode through the 63rd connection for the 1st time myself
sunday afternoon 1/14. I originally boarded an R46 R at City Hall, but it was announced the R would terminate at 42nd St Times Sq presumably due to the signal problems and congestion. Switched at 34th St for R32 E. When one pulled in, 2 tall men raced to the railfan window from the platform. Discouraged, I got off at the next stop and heck, took the next train R46 F because my time was running short. And yup, it crawled through until 36th St in Queens.
With all the hype about this 63rd St connection, riding it unfortunately doesn't seem that impressive at least for this weekend's G.O. It was slow, slow, slow, and local to Roosevelt Ave where I got off. Hopefully next time the ride will be much faster, and nonstop to Roosevelt Ave and vice versa.
Come next August, the turn up of the 63rd St tunnel will be a little smother. There will not be a shuttle or "E" service to compound delays and switch merges. The F and R should glide thru with a minimum of delays. This is a great opurtunity to iron out the wrinkles.
Watch, the next reroute in the opposite direction will be an improvement over this past weekend. Like old men lovers, things improve with agr and experience. Like an excellant wine, great steaks or near perfect cheese.
avid
I am a Station AGent. Many times while waiting for a train I do ask people "What train do you want?" they tell me they want a train that is not running (such as the uptown E this weekend at 14/8th) and they then cuss me out because their train ias not running. We could stop everyone but they dont listen, even if they do speak english
The TA has started putting large cardboard signs in trains advising people to read the smaller paper signs for diversion information. Of course, people who don't pay attention to signs will probably not pay attention to the new ones either, so it may be wasted effort. But at least you can't say they aren't trying.
"Know which way to GO" says the headline on one sign, with the leters "GO" in big block caps enclosed in a circle made of arrows. It appears to be a deliberate pun on the word "GO" and the abbreviation "G.O." meaning General Order - except that the term "General Order" is not explained or even mentioned, so no one is going to get it except people already familiar with the term, which would not include the target audience of the sign. Perhaps the original plan was to explain the term, but then they decided it was too complicated and so omitted it but kept the headline?
There are other signs in the series with the same basic message. One says "Make sure you're on the right TRACK" with a picture of a short length of railroad track. Probably none will have much effect.
Perhaps the original plan was to explain the term, but then they decided it was too complicated and so omitted it but kept the headline?
Hardly. It's an inside joke. Like a software designer inserting his character into a video game (or something similar).
>>Their response: I have no time to read them and miss my train!
A point for putting the G/O signs
INSIDE the subway cars... tho
how can one HAVE TIME to read thou
newspaper... yet HAVE NO TIME to
read a single page G/O advisory?
::ding!!::
No excuse; the TA took ads out in the papers, too!
Ads in the papers?
Wow.. THAT I've yet to see!
Page 32 in yesterday's Daily Snews, opposite from the entertainment section, which is where most people who don't have time to read GO notices probably turn first :).
You should LOOK
a little harder!
Peace,
ANDEE
Because of the volume of service changes, if they posted all GO's in the cars, you couldn't see out the windows. As it is, I've seen people rip them down for no reason whatsoever. They do post long running G.O.'s which have the same service pattern for weeks at a time. For example, when the E went to Euclid a year ago (with C service suspended); the current Broadway BMT uptown local stations closed, and last springs' combined E & R services over a period of 5 weekends. For last weekends G.O., these were not posted in the cars because the service plan was for one weekend only. Disclaimer: I am not an official or unofficial spokesman for the TA, yet I have worked there for 21 years which simply means I think I know how the TA thinks.
Not that I'm counting but it's been over 24 hours since we've heard from our "Embassador of Good Will" from the Left Coast. It's been even longer since we've heard from Sea Beach Fred. Could this be because of the threatened 'rolling blackouts' planned for the LA area? They had planned a railfan trip. Could the anti-railfan forces be at work here?
Newspapers say there haven't been any of these blackouts yet. (Once they get the electric bills up where they want the problem will magically vanish, just like gasoline prices and fuel shortages....)
We HAVE had some pretty heavy rainstorms the past week (but Saturday was nice) so maybe everyone is out there trying to catch up what they couldn't do when it was raining. I took advantage of the nice weather and did a nice trip down to San Diego (where the trolleys look like they haven't been washed in months.....)
are you feeling withdrawal symptoms? ( cheap shot, but i thought it's funny )
What would Moe have been if he didn't have Larry's hair to pull or Curley to slap around?
excellent insight...
SOITENLY, NYUK, NYUK, NYUK, NYUK, NYUK
"What would Moe have been if he didn't have Larry's hair to pull or Curley to slap around?"
probably a good guy to hang out with...
There's always Shemp..
Will the "rolling blackouts" impact service on the Red, Blue, and Green Lines, or does LACMTA have its own power sources?
LA city/county has its own plants, notably coal fired setup at Four Corners/Black Mesa where polution controls are looser. LA is sitting pretty--not subject to the ripoffs the rest of CA is being hit with.
LA never de-regulated its power supply system. It still ownes the lines and the generating stations. LA has so much power that its selling $500,000 worth a joules a day to the rest of the state. So despite all our hopes not eve this power crunch can silence Mr. LA Transit System.
But Mr. LA Transit lives in Pasadena, not the City of Los Angeles?
Maybe he has an extention cord.
Pasadena has its own municipal power system, as does Los Angeles and Glendale.
But Pasadena buys the power from.....Edison. So does Glendale, and also Anaheim and Riverside.
Doesn t everyone in So California except LA City buy their power from So Cal Ed, LA has the DWP and I think Burbank has their own. Used to be that LA DWP had the cheapist electricity in the country since it was a govt agency.
The cities of Pasadena, Anaheim, and Riverside also have their own, and their rates are a LOT lower. However, they do use SCE's grids to get power to their cities from their sources. Each of the cities does own a very, very small percentage of the San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (south of San Clemente) but part of it is always down for some reason or another.
I have been to the pasadena power plant. it is across the beginning of americas oldest freeway the pasadena freway ( 110 ) next door to blair shs high school near the former santa fe railroad track (s) rightaway that will be used for the future now being built (PASADENA BLUE LINE) now that is an on topic post folks !!
Of course Salaam, if these blackouts reach us down in Southern California we may not be able to get on topic because power will not be there for us. I'm starting to get worried about it. My daughter;s dorm at Whittier College has experienced three blackouts already. It seems to be getting mighty close. Are you a sports fan? If so, get to your alma mater and watch the Mustangs play basketball. They have one hell of a team. Their coach used to run our program at Arcadia but you guys stole him from us.
Northern California is now dark. I wonder if BART was affected? What will this mean to all those computer-related firms up there?
The good thing about having a disaster hit somewhere else is it gives you the chance to avoid it. Let's see if New York's disfunctional pols can avoid disaster this summer.
Time is getting tight, though, and I'm not sure we're coming up with a solution in time to avoid a catastrophe. And I mean catastrophe. Can you imagine the man hours and wages lost in our economy if such a thing occurs. We have in California the 7th largest economy in the world if we were a separate nation. Hundreds of thousands of people will be adversely affected if we don't get our @$%^# together. Governor Davis wants to have the state buy electricity and sell it to the power companies, but it may come too late to avert a blackout. I'm surprised we didn't see this coming sooner.
(Governor Davis wants to have the state buy electricity and sell it to the power companies, but it may come too late to avert a blackout. I'm surprised we didn't see this coming sooner.)
What is unique in California is the WAY the pain is being felt. The problem -- internationally -- is that energy prices have been too LOW for 15 years. So consumers got piggy, and producers didn't invest. Now there is a shortage, and since it takes years to switch to fuel efficient cars and homes, build new power plants, refineries and pipelines, and drill new wells, it will take years to fix.
The market choices is soaring prices, which forces those with less money -- ie. the poor, the old, small business -- to stop buying. That's what the rest of the country has. Califonia capped the price, so now everyone faces blackouts. In the short run this might be more fair, but in the long run it is worse, since the incentive to conserve /produce is not there.
This is not Shenzen, China where power goes out for 90 minutes a day. This should not be happening in America.
Easy solution-build more power plants. We know the result of a power shortage, what is there to think about?
I guess we could really use Shoreham now!
What do you me we?
avid
NUCLEAR POWER IS #1.
Sure, it may have its disadvantages, but as long as fusion is out of reach and solar is inefficient, NUCLEAR is the way to go.
Bob: Governor Davis is working on a plan to have the state government buy electricity and sell it to the power companies. I happen to agree with this SURPRISE!!!!!!!. We have a large surplus and a booming economy to make this happen, but if there are power shortages our economy could take a hit. As you know we have a large population and are short on resources like water, and now power is in short supply, so say the power companies. This plan could work. It has to.
With the power supply problems California has been having, are they still going ahead with the electrification of the Caltrain commuter line?!
(With the power supply problems California has been having, are they still going ahead with the electrification of the Caltrain commuter line?!)
The problems are temporary, a product of low prices (due to federal hydropower) which has both encouraged porky consumption and reduced the incentive to invest. Supply and demand will come back in balance eventually -- no reason not to electrify.
The problems are temporary, a product of low prices (due to federal hydropower) which has both encouraged porky consumption and reduced the incentive to invest. Supply and demand will come back in balance eventually -- no reason not to electrify.
Talk about short-sightedness ... the major California utilities sold off their generating capacity (just like Con Edison here in NY) to focus on power distribution. It might have been a workable idea except for state laws that cap the amount the utilities can charge their retail customers while setting no limits on what the utilities have to pay (aka the wholesale price) to the power generating companies. So now the utilities have to pay more at wholesale than what they can charge at retail. The results, needless to say, have not been favorable - in fact cnnfn.com just reported that Southern California Edison is now technically insolvent. Pacific Gas & Electric probably isn't far behind.
Why can't the state just set a maximum markup amount and then let the utilities charge whatever they need to.
(Why can't the state just set a maximum markup amount and then let the utilities charge whatever they need to.)
The retail price caps are like the five cent fare -- a political deal pushed by the utility companies themselves to get their deal approved, and allow them to profit from the expected LOWER wholesale rates. Things didn't turn out as expected, and now they are pushing for a new deal. They should get it...after bankruptcy.
And at the same time, California has got to allow construction of new power plants in California, instead of expecting all the states to the north and east to handle the dirty work while they just purchase the output. Make the utilites in the state be sure they have their own generating plants before allowng them to start spending their money elsewhere.
You would think the west coast NIMBYs would learn from this electric shortage, but I guarentee you they won't, and this also applies to the people in NYC who are now pushing to block construction of any new power plants along the waterfront, apparently with the idea the electricity fairy is going to waive her wand and fulfill all the future power requirements for the area. Idiots.
Maryland is getting into the electric deregulation business, with a interesting twist. Baltimore Gas & Electric (BGE) had a hand in writing the legislation. Even before the dereg, BGE set up a holding company (non-regulated) called Constelation Energy Corporation. All the capital stock of BGE was sold to Constelation who is now the sole owner of BGE. Every stockholder in BGE got a equal holding in Constelation upon surrender of the BGE shares.
When dereg began, BGE "sold" the power plants to Constelation, which is like your wife selling you the family car. It's still in the family.
CalTrain should build its own generating station and then sell any extra power not used for train propultion.
That's too damned logical. Logic and Caltrain are NEVER used in the same sentence, never mind the same conversation!!!!
After last week's game, I wanted nothing to do with you people:)
When did the connector open and what are the routings?
All Queens-bound E/F/R trains are operating via 63rd. The E is running along 6th Ave. north of W4th.
After last week's game, I wanted nothing to do with you people:)
When did the connector open and what are the routings?
The connector is open for use by the E, F and R Queensbound service this weekend and other weekends for the next month or so while work is being done on the signals in the 53rd St tunnel and the 60th St connection (for the R). Periodically the E and F will be using this in both directions in the overnight periods. Starting August 1, 2000 the F will be using it full time.
As I write this the Giants are humilating the Vikings 34 - 0. I am not sure you are going to want to even look at us after that.
Another train came and went. 41-zip with 11:57 to go.
The Giants won 41-0. I also want to know if there is "V" or "W" service yet?
BMTJeff
I know this is kind of last minute for most of you, but Thurston and I are meeting up at the Atlantic Avenue 2/3 northbound platform (front, near the Belmont Spur) at 9:00 a.m. The trip will entail heading up to 242nd Street where Thurston will meet up with an MC trading partner. From there we'll double back to Mid-town where we will switch to the IND and do the E through the 63rd Street Connector, possibly taking it all the way to Jamaica Center.
Any SubTalkers who would like to tag along would be appreciated.
BMTman
Hate to rain on your parade, but the E is running via the regular 53rd Street route on Monday. The TA service plan does not recognize MLK day as a holiday. Most likely a reduced weekday schedule will be operated.
Thanks zman, but the B-Line T/O -- who let us "ride shotgun" with him -- told us essentially the same thing.
BMTman
With all the Gentrification going on in Harlem, has the transit sytem improved at all for commuters. In what condition are the stations between Inwood and lower Harlem? Good or bad?
BTW: the closed 91st street station, would that be considered Harlem? Just wondering.
The stations are in no better or worse than the other stations in the system. Some (181 on the 1/9) have recently been renovated. I can't think of any which are in truly dilapidated condition, though some of the stations on the CPW line (155 and 163) seem rather dark and lonely. 145 on the 1/9 seems to have a much higher than normal population of characters entering/exiting/loitering.
91st Street and Broadway is the Upper West Side. About the only thing that neighborhood shares with Harlem is the prevailing political leanings.
CG
The Lenox Ave stations got renovated not long ago, right? I seem to remember that recently they look nicer (at least from the inside of a train) than many stations in more affluent areas.
adapted from official Stations Bulletin:
from 10pm to 5am Monday to Friday (meaning wortk ends 5 am Friday and wont start again till 10pm Monday)1/15/2001 to 2/2/2001. Of course there may be separate weekend G.O.s not addressed by this bulletin.
E: Runs via R line from Whitehall to Queens Plaza and then LOCAL to Roosevelt. Yes- the E still runs to Jamaica Center. Queens bound E trains run express on Broadway from Canal to 34.** Both directions***
F: Both directions via 63rd Street Connection. All Local stops to Roosevelt then normal to 179. Yes- F still will go to Stillwell.
R: Normal (Midnight shuttle in Brooklyn also normal).
N: Normal
B Shuttle: suspended and replaced by the rerouted F.
Shuttle Bus: runs between Court(House) Square/23-Ely, Queens(Boro)Plaza, Queensbridge,
Stations closed:50th/8th lower level,53rd/5th, Lex/53rd, 23/Ely,
[WTC E Plat]. NOTE: ALl booths will remain open, even if the station is closed.
Two consecutive signals failed, and from 3-4:30 PM there was slow moving bet Queensbridge and 36th (keying by 2 red signals in a row was weird though). I was expecting them to wrong-rail a few trains from QB to 36, then on the Manhattan Bound express track (wasn't in use anyway) to S. of Roosevelt, cross over to the correct express track. But instead they turned a few Rs at 57th and ran select Es and Fs up CPW.
LOL. Less than 48 hours in use, and something goes wrong.
*cough*R142's*cough**cough*
Everything new has it's problems :)
Shawn.
then on the Manhattan Bound express track (wasn't in use anyway) to
S. of Roosevelt
You can not make that move. D3 track is not reverse signaled.
To wrong-rail through there you'd have to hook down several
signals and proceed as an absolute block at restricted speed,
running against the trip arms.
Not to meantion have a load of TSS around >G<...
Question: will CBTC change this type of situation? Hopefully in the future tracks will actually be two way streets! It would add a lot of flexibility, particularly during GOs.
I always thought if trains apprioached a signal from the wrong direction, the trip arm would drop automatically. Or is that only in reverse-signalled lines?
The arm will go down when the train enters the retaining circuit
of the opposing signal. In some cases, the retaining circuit is
the entire block, in others there is a cut section and the retaining
circuit is only hundred feet or so in advance of the signal.
In still other cases, such as circle-K or the new NOKEYBY
signals, the arm won't go down at all. That is why, when operating
against normal traffic in non-2way territory, the t/o must
operate at restricted speed and must observe the trips driven
down before proceeding over them.
Yup I got stuck in that mess. My E keyed by two red signals in the connector. There were track workers around.
Brand new connector and there's already problems. Sure Cummins wasn't behind this? (yup I had 175 on the N21 back home, it was very loud, fortunetly not too slow)
My train was the first to encounter the signal problems. There was slow moving traffic on the connector at the time and there was an R train directly in front of me. Leaving 21 St, when I got to signal T2-1226 just before the curve, it was red and so were the following two. So I sat since I knew that the R was right in front of me. Then about 4 minutes later, they ask me over the radio why I'm not moving. That's when I found out that the signals weren't working. I didn't receive permission to key by right away so I sat some more. A couple more minutes later, I finally received permission to key by T2-1226, did that, then approached T2-1229. The signal after that cleared up before I approached the insulated joint of T2-1229 so I thought the R cleared the block up. Asked for permission to key T2-1229. No response so I sat some more. Finally got permission to key by T2-1229 and proceeded. That's when I found out that the R was long gone. My train was delayed by about 10 minutes because of this and service behind me was shot since three lines were operating on the one track. So there.
P.S. Couldn't wrong rail due to an absolute block on T1 track for the shuttle train.
That's what I call a good joint contribution to SubTalk and the railroad! Guity as charged!
Thank you sir! Can't wait for my punishment! :)
A week in Heypaul's R-9 cab.:-)
Same thing with my E train. We didn't start moving until well after that R was long gone. We had to key by two red signals.
Greetings,
Those of you who are Transit Museum members probably have noticed that they are asking for suggestions for 2004 centennial celebrations. I was thinking that we might want to compose a letter together as a group, maybe it would give it some more weight. I volunteer to draft the letter.
I think so far the following points have to be included:
- The available Low-V train MUST be able to run. Consider restoring the WF Low-V to include in the train. Maybe borrow 5466 and 5600 from their respective museums. 5600 needs restoration, this is a possible way to get it done. Include 4902 from the Transit Museum and you have two four-car trains.
- Renovation of City Hall Station, which had grant money already allocated for it, MUST be completed and it MUST be open to the public.
- Whatever legal/political wrangling needs to be done in order to run "Day One on the IRT" tours, including tours of the closed stations. Tours should be run each month.
- The other divisions shouldn't be left out since they probably won't get their own centennial celebrations.
- In a perfect world, grant money would show up to restore a lot of the stuff sitting out at Coney Island- out shopped to a professional car rebuilder if necessary, i.e. if it will get the job done faster. Start a big campaign throughout NYC business to raise the money. Publish on the MTA web site exactly what it will take to restore worthy items and how close to the goal the fundraising effort has come.
I'll compile suggestions and post drafts here. When the time comes to mail it I'll ask you to Email me your real name and mailing address to include as a "signature".
-Dave
Dave,
This is what I would like to see:
1. In addition to thew lo-v running, other retired trains should run too, especially the R14, or another train with the double circle display on the doors.
2. An Equipment Parade! This should be done on Sat. 10/23/04, or Sun 10/24/04. All retired equipment should be displayed, and bands should be hired to play songs like "I've been working on the railroad" and other appropriate train songs.
3. In addition to Old City Hall being open, there should be a special press run starting at city hall....which should begin PROMPTLY at 2:35 PM on 10/27/04....to mark the irt's anniversary to the minute. The current mayor should be the motorman as well. Also, if possible...some sort of whistle should start blowing at least 30 minutes beforehand, and should be able to be heard throughout the 5 boroughs.
4. Some free rides should be given on 10/27/04....perhaps during both rush hours.
5. Lots of promotion should be given to this....t-shirts, posters, and other things should be made. Perhaps a fireworks display over the east river on the evening of 10/27/04 would be nice too. Reminder: The city's centennial included fireworks.
Finally, one question for the museum....I am majoring in communications, and by the time 2004 roles around I would like to help make either a 30 second or one minute "MTA:Going Your Way" commercial for the centennial celebration....how can I get connected so I can do this?"
Regards,
Nick
First , are Tokens still in Use?
If so , Create a series of tokens , perhaps some different each month , stamped with the different work horses, and some of the rarer ones. Sold at all booths ,1/2 of the profits going towards the Museum. Good for one fair. But if collectors save them , its a about 17 cents to mint each coin. They made some for the Diamond jubilee and they pretty well disappeared. Maybe make some of brass and some of nickel alloy for collectors.
avid
I'm sure the "M" could also print some nifty "collector's item" farecards with all of the different cars on them too. Collect them all like flipping Pokeman cards ... but then again, that would imply a profit motive on the part of the "M" - turn it into a craze and they could afford to build the second avenue line solely on "Pokeytrain" cards. Wouldn't that be a hoot? Capture them all! :)
They need to start putting full card designs on the mag-stripe side of the card.
I see this (special MCs with various car featured, e.g. Lo-V, Hi-V, Q type, etc.) as much more likely then a special Token issue, as the MTA is set on getting rid of tokens.
Mr t__:^)
When I said "Pokeytrain cards" I meant those silly M things. Sorry, to me "farecards" are amateur hour, like those paper things that are acceptable on the DC system and such ... call me old-fashioned, but paper tokens to me means pods in the basement (Body Snatchers movie) though I didn't mean tokens this time ... Metro-Pokeman-like cards was where I was going, collect them all but never use them much like the USPS is trying to sell postage stamps as collectibles.
It'd be pretty pictures as well as money given up. But TOKENS would be a cool idea too - hadn't thought of that. Unlike Metrocards, you couldn't exhaust it to zero without giving it up. This sounds like a MUCH better idea as far as pocketing money to finish the 2nd avenue line. THINK about it ... getting el tourista to spend money on the construction since us upstate republicans told NYC to pee in the wind for more subway lines with that bond issue thingy ...
So next time someone gasses off about Shrub being a great idea, remember who killed your second avenue subway down there. Us republican types ... upstate ... who don't have an R9 to pee in. :)
Use your minds eye for this .
Grandma gets off the bus (Greydog) in Rustyharvester, Kansas. She neals down to give her least favorite Grandchild , Timmy, a hug.
He says "Grandma, what did you bring me."
She thinks "NOTHING". She reaches into her handbag and pulls out a Metrocard and a Token with a beautiful likeness of a R/1 or Gatecar on one side, and a profile of heypaul wearing a MTA baseball hat backwards.
If you were little Timmy, Which would you choose. The coin or the peice of shine gold like metal. Dated 1904-2004. 100 YEARS of SERVICE.
GOOD FOR one Fare. Expires 2104.
They'll never give it up.
avid
Well, since Tommy doesn't know what a heypaul or a subway is he is sure to take the coin ... heck it ought to be GOOD FOR something.
Mr t__;-)
I think this is an excellent idea, Dave. My thoughts:
(1) Include a restoration not only of City Hall but of one platform at either Worth Street or 18th Street (91st being "way up there" doesn't seem as practical), with the idea that they can be visited under the same set of circumstances that City Hall is open, although perhaps not as frequently - but keep the restored platform illuminated 24x7 so it can be seen from passing trains.
(2) Restore the mural at Myrtle.
(3) Fund the research and publication of a scholarly work that will answer authoritatively - or state authoritatively that the answer cannot be found - many of the fundamental questions about the subway's early years. In particular, I have in mind questions about the usage of the Mineola, the connection to the LIRR tracks, Belmont's private spur, etc., but there are also many other questions that need good answers. 722 Miles is an excellent starting point, and a far better one than Fischler's book, but I'd love to see more.
And yes, I'll be glad to have my name as signatory on the letter you write.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would run a trainset of IRT Low Vs and the IRT. I would run the BMT Standards and Triplexs on the former BMT lines and lastly I would run a trainset of R1 thru 9s on the former IND lines.
BMTJeff
Are there enough R1-9's still existing to create a train?
Objection, asked and answered. :-)
Museum Roster
Dear David,
What a great project for this site to be involved in! If there are
any high-up T.A. employees who might have an inside "track" on
getting things done - like the things mentioned here already - who are browsers on this site, perhaps they could make themselves known to
you. This way, you could get guidance as to which way to go to actually get things done. Any rainmakers out there? No sense wasting
time barking up the wrong tree. With a bureaucracy, it's essential
to know the ropes.
I must confess, I have Lusted in my heart for the SOACs. If I could, I would put them and others like them near the Far Rockaway Branch to lure the Rockaway Loop and Hempstead Loops into the Greater Family of Direct Service to Lower and Mid-town Manhattan.
Then , just for sport, challange SlantR/40 to a run on the Howard Beach - Broad Channel stretch. Whata gas!
avid
To ride a 6019 or a 6095 Triplex to Coney Island would be a delight for me. I would even climb in the front of the car to have my picture taken riding on it, though it would be stopped when I do such a thing. I'm very sorry there are only three D's left. I wonder why they junked so many of them. A nice six or eight car Triplex running to Coney Island would be a nostalgic boost for me, but I'll take what I can get. That's what I'd like to see.
I agree with Fred, but I have a feeling they will use what ever old Low/Hi Volt IRT train, and ride use them from maybe Brooklyn Bridge or City Hall up the Lex change via the 5, turn back at 3rd Ave, down the 2 to South Ferry, basically the rouites of the original IRT line except the shuttle on 42nd St
You know Bob, I have some pictures on this website of fan trips along the Brighton-West End-Sea Beach route. I know they did these in the 1970's, but I guess that was before they junked most of the Triplexes and Standards. Are there more Low V's in the yards, and if so I wonder why they preserved them and kept only a few of my favorites. I hope you're all settled in. Hit me up on either one of my E-Mails. I hope your job is going ok.
i don t know, I think they still have some IRT cars out there, Someone on this site must know. If I can t find out by the end of my reading i will ask The job is ok, just trying to find a place to live sucks.
Actually a 3 [read articulated car] car triplex-D type is a 6 car train translated to conventional car; 4 cars would be 8 AB's for example. As I found from someone who [very nastily] corrested an error in my publication...an entire articulated unit is one car...the sections of it are not each a car. So enjoy the 3 car triplex..it's a midday full length train in most cases.
In case you don't know Ed, the TA has three sets, two of which are operational & the third stuffed & mounted at the Museum.
Mr t__:^)
Three cars are one unit, but aren't they still counted as three cars?
They are three cars riding on four trucks, not six!
Oy vay. All the time I thought that unit was operational...Your term "stuffed and mounted" has made my day for me!Thought there were three articulated cars available for service. [3 units]
IIRC 6095 needs some mechanical work to get it running. The body itself looks pretty good, mainly because it spends most of the time indoors at the Transit Museum.
BTW, if you've ever seen Class of '44, 6095 is featured in it along with one or possibly both of its sister units.
The main reason the Triplexes were sent to premature slaughter was because the TA in its infinite wisdom wanted to get rid of all nonstandard rolling stock, regardless of condition. A major travesty of the highest degree, IMHO, when you consider the Triplexes were still running beautifully at the time and would easily have lasted at least another ten years.
Since the R15 is not operational, the R11 will do. Also, while it doesn't have the double-circle window display...the R30 looks like a real beauty too! But one question...won't it look odd to have just one car running instead of a set...maybe there are other cars out there that were not scrapped...at other museums or something. -Nick
If you can find the right parts for the modern IRT cars, then someone can make them work. A 4 car train of Museum Cars made up of R-12 5760, R-15 6239, R-17 6609, and R-33 9306 would sure look interesting on the 42nd St Shuttle. I don't believe these cars were ever in service together in their respective paint schemes. It would also be a good moneymaker for a fan trip.
-Stef
I think that there might be enough parts available to make the cars that you described above operational. They would make a great museum train on the 42nd St. shuttle.
BMTJeff
Aye! Never say never, as they are the most modern of the Museum Cars out there. I suspect that most parts are still available, if not, the parts can be fabricted. It's no wonder they weren't used for excursions years ago.
-Stef
I'm sure that your right that most parts are still available or can be easily fabricated for these cars.
BMTJeff
That 4-car set sounds like an AWESOME idea, Stef! But instead of it just running back and forth on the shuttle, I bet we could have it run on an irt line....maybe even run some express stops! -Nick
They'd have to make sure the track's good and clear. Those Lo-Vs could probably outrun any of today's equipment; they still have field shunting enabled.
I don't know if a 4 car train is practical for any of the routes. The Lo-Vs spent a day on 42nd St in 1994, they could do the same with the IRT SMEEs. Of course you could add more cars to that consist, or run the train up and down Lexington Av and/or 7th Av and just turn them short (59th St or 96th St). There are some folks out there who couldn't appreciate a piece of history which is why the shuttle makes the most sense.
There are other cars out there that haven't been restored, and could be added to the existing 4 car consist. We could try for 10 cars perhaps, hehe. R-12 5782 and R-14 5871, as well as R-17 6895 could be put in for a special train. I'd welcome a run of cars in pre- 1970's paint schemes shooting up to the Bronx and down to Brooklyn for an excursion....
-Stef
Stef, I could certainly go for that too! I think we can get away with running it on more than just the shuttle...as long as transit cops are aboard the train to deal with those who don't appreciate the history and want to make their mark.
My only quesstion is the speed of the train...would it slow down the system, or force those in a hurry to become more impatient? If so, that should be in mind when rehabilitating any of these cars. -Nick
The cars can run faster than any modified redbird currently running.
Speed isn't an issue. But if the train were to break down on the road, some of those in charge would see red....
-Stef
Knew those babies intimately ... if they have fresh hoses and fresh shoes, what's gonna break? You can always chain a door shut. No indication, no problem. :)
what's gonna break?
Based on prior experience, the motor controls.
If you mean the contactors down under, a polishing and some use usually takes care of the crud buildup, same for the controller housing contacts. Dead batteries or a flopped fuse are also part of the maintenance horror on those but certainly not insurmountable with a little preparation. When the Steinways and WF cars were still running on Webster Avenue, had an RCI buddy who was unflappable with those things and got really honked off when the 12's and 14's started replacing his babies. Talk about rolling turds ...
But a couple of burnishing tools ought to do the trick there if used in a conscientiously applied program of brass hygiene prior to the event. And some cam grease.
Tracing the original line would be nice. City Hall to Harlem. The problem is the shuttle connection at both ends is tricky to manuever. They definatly have to let people into City Hall Station. Adolf Gulianni will be gone by then, so it shouldn't be a problem unless we get another psychotic, paranoid, rat-like mayor.
Is there something in the works that will make any of this happen. A lot of us are getting excited about the prospects but I haven't been on line in three days and I might have missed some info. Is the TA planning such a thing. If so, when is a decision supposed to be made?
unless we get another psychotic, paranoid, rat-like mayor.
I dunno if I would go that far about Guiliani....even though he has not been the best mayor for transit. He certainly tried to do things to improve the city...some things worked, some did not. But at least he did try!
As for future mayors, keep these 2 names in mind:
1. Bernie Goetz-Wouldn't it be appropriate if he was the mayor driving the train at 2:35 PM on 10/27/2004 We can always fire off a few rounds beforehand :)
2. Al Sharpton-If we don't let him drive the train then, he'll accuse the white man of taking away his mayor duties
-Nick
Adolf Gulianni will be gone by then, so it shouldn't be a problem unless we get another psychotic, paranoid, rat-like mayor.
Hey dumbass, why don't you bother reading your history and finding out how lucky you are to have a benevolent person like Rudy in City Hall and stop comparing him to Hitler.
I feel free to insult anyone who shows a total lack of comprehension for the greatest atrocity in human history.
I think a train of Low Vs on the shuttle, and a 10-car train ranging from 5782 to 9306 (which would include a couple of R-21 R-22 cars restored from their work train status) that would start at City Hall, run up to 59th on the Lex then come back down and loop around South Ferry and up the No. 1 line to 145th St. would make the most sense from a historical perspective.
Howdy, Stef ... if fantasies COULD be fulfilled, the only real way to celebrate the 100 year gap would be to let the LoV's out onto the REAL railroad if anyway possible ... and ultimate fantasy would be using the 2+ years ahead to rig up a switch so it could do the original dogleg route up 4th avenue, across 42nd and north on Broadway, tracing the ORIGINAL line before it got H'd a few years later.
Even if there's only enough consist for one train to do it, that would truly be the best way to honor the history itself even if the LoV's weren't the original cars from opening day. It's about as close as it gets since I doubt there's any HiV's or convertibles that would run save for maybe one preserved car somewhere.
But to my cantankerous 50 year old mind, running the "new cars" from the 50's and 60's isn't quite as good as running cars from the 1910's to honor the 1904 event. I'd much rather see the old sweeties groaning on the main line even if it's only one run up and down before layup to stay clear of "rush hour" ... I still suspect the LoV's wouldn't hole up the railroad, and much like the film clip from Library of Congress, would be drafting the train ahead in the same block rather than being a laggard. :)
There are a couple of Hi-Vs out-of-town that wouldn't take too much to join the event ... one operates a couple of times a year, the other needs some mechanical work & both need cosmetic work. Then there's a the moving cost, that would be a big one.
Mr t__:^)
I'm sure it wouldn't come anywhere near the cost of the Shrub coronation and would be far more worthy. And given the size and scale of NYC and this event, I'm sure the costs would be very small once divvied up. And if the "MTA" has any brains, what a wonderful opportunity to use the event and the quality camera time that would come with it to lobby to get the second avenue line built while the topic is hot. But then again, does the MTA have any brains?
As Thurston says there are only 2 High-V's, regrettably. Thankfully a train of Low-V's can be made up and could run the mainlines. So what if it isn't original. The glory days of the IRT were after 1918 and the "H"pattern with two trunk lines. One week on the West side, one week on the east side.
Seashore's 3352 should be a special guest for any festivities - provided it can be spruced up in time. The good folks at Seashore say it needs a lot of work.
There has already been a lot of time and effort invested by the previous Project Leader, but the inside is just a pile of stuff right now. Their Hi-V Gibbs would be about as close as you're going to come to running the day one equip. on the line.
Mr t__:^)
As I've said before, there's a good chance 3352 ran on Day One, if it was already on the property. I don't suppose any records exist which could substantiate this.
Especially in view of the fact that the center doors had been removed and the 3352 looking as it did originally, OK not AS good. AFAIK the original window arrangement has been restored.
IMHO better left as it spent all but 6 years of its long life...with the center doors. [Built 1904, modified c) 1910, retired 1955-57..don't know just when.
I believe Larry, Redbird R-33 posted once that 3352 remained in service until August of 1956 or thereabouts. 52 years, almost - not too shabby.
Ed, et, al, Go to the "Field Trip" section of this site to see a couple of shots of the Gibbs Hi-V, incl. one of the side showing the window arangement "re-installed". Thanks to our host Todd Glickmanm, who knew exactly where she was, the 3/4 Ton Crew boarded her along with many other cars in the Sea Shore collection.
Mr t__:^)
One of my goals for this summer is to dig out 3352 (it's WAAAAAY back in one of Seashore's barns, behind a number of "tarped wonders") and give it some TLC.
I've got a burnishing tool! As much as the pepsi cans satisfy the geese, as someone who actually worked R1/9's as both conductor and motorman, I'd give my left nut to be able to play with something even older and perhaps FIX it. I'm awful with woodwork and polishing metal and painting it, but power distribution, wiring, controllers and breaker panels? I do dat ... gotta find some time myself to get up there if I can play a bit ...
How good are you at working on air brakes? Todd says 3352 has a problem with one of the brake stands.
Sorry to say air isn't something I've done ... I take it the car is suffering from a cylinder that's unhappy? Blowby? Bad O rings? Whassa matta?
Your skills would be most welcome at the Seashore Trolley Museum. Come on up this summer and we'll put you to work!
Depending on who wants to join the 2nd Annual Sea Shore & T Party, maybe we can get dirty Saturday on the Gibbs Hi-V ... Bill P., of course, would slip in a ride on one of this other charges just as a special treat. His "A train" would be real nice again, but one of the Boston cars would be fun too.
Mr t__:^)
Heh. Will see what I can do ... big trick is having schematics or enough of similar ones to figure out what gezinta and what gezoutta.
Sorry about the hair trigger.
Aside from the difference in lighting and hundreds of other technical items, between the pre and post war rolling stock, this stands out Most.
The Air dynamic shape of the crud that would build up before and after the rivet heads. The tops and bottoms were smooth and kinda crud free. The leading and trailing quadrants had a build up and tappered off to point where it blended in with the rest of the crud.
I guess, a kind of evolution going on. Then the car washes came and revealed the real color, the gold lettering for The City of New York. There went the aero dynamics.
avid
Those car washers also cleaned off some of the paint from the doors, leaving white streaks. Interestingly, none of the R-1/9s ever had their exteriors repainted except for the ones on the Eastern Division which got the silver and blue treatment.
IIRC the "white on the doors" was actually bare aluminum.
What about a vintage consist on each of the Main lines in Manhattan.
Low Vs on the South Ferry Shuttle.
R/17 21 27 on the Lex and/or Seventh ave Line.
R1/9s 59th down to Chambers on 8th ave , return uptown on 6th Ave.
then back to 59th.
Triplex on B'way from Chambers/city Hall ot 57th and 7th ave , reversing at Lex/63rd or put in layup north of 57th under Central Park stub.
Week ends only too reduce wear and serve tousist and US, the True believers!
avid
Week ends only too reduce wear and serve tousist and US, the True believers
Avid,
I dunno if these cars can run for days at a time. But if they only run on one weekday (and perhaps the weekend before) it should be on Wednesday, October 27, 2004. -Nick
Okay, ever two hours on the hour, or as close there afteras schedules allow.
avid
Sounds like a good idea! :) -Nick
I wouldn't run them in regular service. Do charters on the week-ends, but inexpensive at $5 or something like that. Put them on static display ... IND lower level at 42nd Street, Shuttle at Times Sq., i.e. there are a few places where they can be laid out. Another example, in Brooklyn, Queens & Bronx there are many 3rd tracks.
Mr t__:^)
Why would you not run them in regular service and just do special charters? I think this celebration should be experienced by all straphangers who are on the platform at the right time, not just railfans. -Nick
[Why would you not run them in regular service and just do special charters? I think this celebration should be experienced by all straphangers who are on the platform at the right time, not just railfans.]
This is an excelent idea in principle:
- Lets take the D types, currently there are three (3) qualified operators. The Lo-Vs the number is about the same ... now you are correct (the question that just came to your mind) they could train & qualify more operators ... i'll bet you would get a lot of volunteer's both from the OT standpoint as well as the buff amoung the ranks. But would the TA be willing to train them ?
- Second: they are old cars, so you are going to want extra staff on-board for operations as well as just in case something brakes.
- Third: if you ran them rush hour would any or the "regulars" care. I'll bet they would either complain or sure for some reason.
So, get out the big base drum & let everyone in the tri-state area know that you are going to do this, then make special runs & let those that want to take photos & ride all get their chance. Put "the train" on one of the museum tracks & run a shuttle from Hoyt to the second museum track ... the existing equipment there would have to be moved, and the shuttle should be another special train, lets say the two Hi-Vs or a pair of Standards.
The alternate would be the middle track at 59th & Columbius Circle (IND) or lower level of 8th Ave at 42nd Street ... that is if the suits decide that they want to board in Mid-town. You could even start on the #7 at Times Square ... gather the folks somewhere off the platform, hide "the train" in the pocket & pull her out when you are ready to board. Main Street has 3 tracks, so you could go there, then switch to BMT on the way back & go to Coney Island or some other place. An alternate #7 ride could be two trains (there are two pockets at Times Square), so run them back & forth so long as folks show up wanting to ride.
Now if you want to run it on the Lexington Ave. gather the folks at the abandoned City Hall station (Rudy will be gone by then) & run it back & forth up to 59th (use the extra track off the local level) ... can't practically run it thru the "H" as you would have to re-lay track so you could get to Shuttle tracks from uptown tracks.
(I guess you could start on track 1, go south on Lex., switch to 7th Ave., come up local & BACK into Shuttle track 4 at Times Square ... just need a cross over to get from track 4 back to 1).
Dave, I'm very happy that this thread is still staying on-subject, maybe something real good will come of it ... I hope, I hope.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
I do like your ideas if we can't get a regular revenue run :)
But I do think The MTA should see if they could get volunteers to train to operate them, and certainly have extra people on duty in case something breaks, and also for security purposes.
But if Plan A fails, cetainly your ideas make an outstanding Plan B.
-Nick
My idea is to have several fall back position plans that the MTA can't come with a "we got no money ... do you realize how complicated it would be to re-install that cross over ... do you realize how much is involved to train new crews to operate that old equipment just for a couple of days". That way we are assured that the event will be at least a good one, meanwhile we work on trying to make it great.
Mr t__:^)
Stef, This is an excelent suggestion, i.e. take a bunch of the "Arch Roof" cars out of Schermerhorn Street (museum) & make up a operational set. This would add nicely to the Lo-Vs, D Types, & Standards (the latter still need a little work). With not too much money you would have four train sets to run for the event AND after the event you would STILL have a Arch Roof train set for fan trips. The best part is that a Arch Roof set would be such an interesting group of different cars (inside).
Mr t__:^)
Yes and not too early to start, either. good ideas all around I know it will be ugly keeping the corporate logos small, but the major firms involved it the project should be tapped for grants--which banks for instance were involved with Belmont? are asny of them extant? And yes add me as signatory. I will come in from CA for this one.
How about restoring the "Mineola?"
I'm for restoring the Hi-V (with MTA funds), getting Car G back, and putting 3662 on loan to the Transit Museum.
-Stef
Then there's Seashore's Gibbs 3352, which shouldn't be forgotten. It's quite possible it even ran on Day One, if it was on the property.
According to Todd, it needs a little mechanical work & right now is buried in a barn (lots of old Boston T cars on the tracks outside in her way). Inside she's a work in progress, with the progress part on hold right now. I believe structuraly she sound, so that's good news.
That said, I too would like to see the both of them return to NYC for the party.
Mr t__:^)
Good that enough of the major types are about that a REAL set of each could be assembled. Obviously from your list enough R1-9 to make up a set, right in the city or nearby; A-B standards, D types. Have to dig a little for the IRT but an honest 7 car weekend consist of Low-V could be assembled, and the World's Fair one DOES NOT BELONG in tnat set. As the irt man that mix would be a bastard mix to me. Now if we could only get a real High-v train made up, Manhattan el ; but at least a real BMT el set is available.
I'll leave the newer salvaged cars to you younger people. Thanks for the listing, Dave; more around than I thought there was.
> and the World's Fair one DOES NOT BELONG in that set.
Well, there are photos of mixed consists on the 3rd Ave El out there...
If the folks at Coney Island can get it to roll under it's own power, I'd settle for WF Car 5655 being in the Lo-V consist. Then again, seeing 4902 roll after all these years would be a real treat too. 4902 was a former 3rd Ave El Car, you know?
-Stef
IRT Low V car No. 4902 was an unpowered Low V trailer built by Pullman in 1917.
BMTJeff
This is true but regular Low-V's were not normally on 3rd Ave. The World"s Fair cars were mixed with Steinway type low-V's, OK I'll admit there was one Low-V trailer in each set. They were all MU'able but the Low-V to the purists was a 400 HP car. The Steinways and World's Fair were 280 HP if I recall.
There were 4 IRT fleets and each was under most circumstances run only with its own: High V, Low V, Flivver and Steinway. The exception was the World's Fair were totally compatible with the Steinways which were undistinguishable from Low_v's except for the red line under the number. I believe this was added when they were moved from Queens to Manhattan. They did use Low-V trailers in the 3rd Ave mixes as there was no power so no incompatibility. Likewise the regular Low-V were about 1 1/2-2 rons heavier than Steinways so that was a consideration..but rarely there was a Low-V motor there.
I've heard that standard Lo-Vs could run in the Steinway tunnel, but they had to be in a solid train of motor cars - no trailers.
P. S. Got your book last Friday - many thanks!
Low-V's did in fact run at one point on the Steinway tunnel-Flushing line. I Have a video that shows them in regular service. You could tell because the only cars that had the thinner brass window frames were the 1917 Low-V group, no Steinways had them.
But I had previously [after I published my book] learned from a friend in Brooklyn that Low-V's could run there, and even worked OK with trailers. I cannot verify that though.
Likewise I can add a correction that Low-V's as well as High-V's served the Bway-7th Ave express until 1952 when it became all High-v..hence I wrote as I remembered.Jeff H has corrected me that the High-V's had a primitive form of automatic acceleration as well...I had assumed all along that they were
manual only.
My apologies that there were some oversights! Trust me, I'm not alone in that department.
I believe that in addition to reliving the past, New York City in general, and the transit system in particular, needs to pursue the future. Therefore, I suggest the creation of four wall-sized poster maps:
1) Rail transit in the NY-NJ area, 1904, including intercity-lines with commuter service, the els, and the original IRT;
2) Rail transit in the NY-NJ area, 1954;
3) Rail transit in the NY-NJ area, 2004; AND
4) Rail transit in the NY-NJ area, 2054.
The latter could be produced by a large group of volunteers convened for the occasion, under the auspices of the MTA's own long term planning team. A decision body could be created, which includes both experts and advocates. Those who make the decisions would be those willing to do some work. The final 2054 could be hashed out in an all-week symposium, called a charette in planning circles (many planners are snobs, and like french words).
The date (2054) is far enough away that the facts that improvements cost money, that current institutional procedures are absurd, and that the rail transit system has a historic infrastructure, need not make anything impossible, though needless to say cost and the existing infrastructure would be taken into account. By moving the discussion out of a political context and into a science fiction contest, and excluding politicians and their like, perhaps a usable document could be produced.
The map would have to include, as background, assumptions about demographic and economic patterns, and what the goals of future improvements should be. It should be noted that NYC Planning is attempting to come up with census tract data for the whole city for 1900-2000. Perhaps county planning departments could be asked to do similar work, at least for 1900, 1950, and 2000, the three years closest to the maps/plans.
I would hope that showing how things have changed in a century will make people think long term. Though it would be initiated as a historical research product, it could eventually have implications. The MTA isn't thinking about the long term consequences and options when it makes its short term decisions -- this might focus it. And it is always possible that such a plan could be formally adopted -- and then exempted from further procedural complications.
If you decide to pass this on, please make sure you let the folks know that I suggested it. I'd like to be on the committee!
Larry, I agree, it doesn't need to be all equipment, so I like your idea of a then-now-future map series.
Mr t__:^)
I nominate heypaul to the charette. he would be right there with the greats of the Past.
George Orwell - 1984
Stanley Kuberic - 2001
heypaul - 2054
avid
I would suggest anything where City Hall station is used. It would way too difficult to do what I would like to see happen, a train running along the original route, but new switches would have to be built for something like that to happen.
I suugest that a train of old IRT cars run from City Hall and run up to Grand Central, it could turn around at the pocket track north of 59 St. and do that run all day. Then if there are enough old cars, they could have one set on the Shuttle, and then another set operate from Times Square to 145 St. If they could run this all day, operateing between normal trains, I would come to NYC right then and there.
The Restoration of August Belmont's private subway car 'The Mineola' should certainly be at or near the top of the list for inclusion in a New York Subway Centennial Celebration.
BMTman
Much like they did for the Diamond anniversary, I think they should run open houses at Coney island Yard. That way, cars that cannot be made road-worthy can still be seen, as well as showing people what goes on behind the scenes.
I, for 207th Overhaul Shop
and 240th Street Yard and 91st.
Yeah, and while there at it, NYCT should re-issue the really neat 'Diamond Jubilee' poster from 1979's 'Open House' ceremonies.
BMTman
How about commemorative MetroCards?
-Stef
Stef -- that's a GREAT idea!
They could have scenes of the varied rolling stock from 1904 to present on a series of commemorative MC's.
BMTman
How about a meeting place that we should get,a place everyone knows and one thats easy to find for us out of towners that will come for this one a place that may hold models or films hell lets make a convention out of it as well,any thoughts ?
I think that the TA Museum should reach out to the out-of-town museums that have period equipment. My idea is that the MTA would pay for the transportation cost & insurance of the cars. The local museum would have the job of restoring that car(s). This would expand the scope of the folks involved. To me it's a win win idea to get individuals & companies involved in the tri-state region.
Here's a very optimistic list:
- Kingston: Lo-V, R-16, R-4, Q type, H&M Black car, SIRT
- Sea Shore: Hi-V, R-4 & R-7a (their A train is operational), SIRT
- Shoreline: Hi-V, Lo-V, SIRT, H&H Black car, Mineolia, Standard, R-9, R-17 and various elevated cars, #1227 needs almost no work.
- Warehouse Point: not sure what they have form NYC
- Coney Island: Some of what Mike Hanna has at Coney Island that is not TA ownwed.
As you can see from the above you could get a 2 car Hi-V train, a 2 car H&M Black car train, a 3 car SIRT car train, some Q's & a elevated set of woodies, plus the Mineolia ... would it be grand ?
Mr t__:^)
I hear that LIRR has DM service from Montauk all the way to NY penn station everyday. This LIRR employee( I knew because he got on at hillside) he told me he is a Engineer and he knows a Engineer who goes from Montauk to NY daily. Thats gotta be 3 hours or so right? Or is there no service to Montauk Directly from NY penn, only from speonk?
Unless it doesn't appear on the schedule, the only DM service on the Montauk branch is to/from Speonk. The Penn-to-Speonk train is extended to Montauk on Fridays during the summer.
CG
You have to remember that the LIRR has a bunch of push-pull new train sets as well as some DM, so there will always be some not-all-the-way-to-Penn-Stn service, e.g. Speonk to Montauk, Ronknokoma/Riverhead to Orient Point.
Mr t__:^)
Push/pull can't go to NYP? Are they straight diesel? Any reason a DM can't run push/pull?
They can run in push mode....BUT.....Amtrak (the owner of Penn Station and all its accompanying tunnelwork, insists that LIRR have two units on the trains because of some long gaps in the third rails and don't want a train to stall in one of those gaps and block up the works. By having two units on the trains, it's somewhat safe to say at least one of them will always be in contact with the third rail somewhere.
I forgot about that. So the problem is not push/pull per se; it's just that if they have to have two engines, they might as well put one at each end instead of running them back to back at one end with a control cab at the other end of the train. Are the gaps at NYP any bigger than elsewhere?
I've been asking this since day one of DM service. AMTRAK does not require THEIR trains to have two engines. I never saw two FL9's or now two Genniess engines and SlAMTRAK engines go through Penn to Sunnyside.
I just wanted to compliment Salaam allah on his 2,5 video. Its great to be able to ride the 2,5 from my bedroom at 9 pm and still go express!(in the bronx that is) I hear that he has some LIRR videos of the hempstead branch. How good is that video?
Salaam included about 30 minutes of LIRR from Hempstead to Jamaica on my tape of the J,M & L. What I saw was very good, but I don't know if he has more footage or not.
I remember months ago that I posted something down about the R68 on the "R" line but I didnt get alot of response. Did R68s actually were tested on the "R" line back in the 1980s
I never saw any R68 on the R, before or after the Queens terminal switch of 5/87.
My day went like this:
1. Rode a L shuttle to E. Pkwy. Walked around ENY complex.
2. Boarded R38#4111 at Bway-ENY. Got off at Chambers.
3. Boarded R32 E train at WTC. Rode through 6Av and 63St.
a. Yes there were confused passengers.
b. The C/R was VERY informative and helpful to say the
least.
c. Really no platform C/R except at 21-QB. Loads of
people waiting for the shuttle at Roosevelt Island.
d. Tunnel is real nice. Saw the mystery turnout.
4. Got off at Roosevelt and got on another R32 E(3559?). This car was unusual in that it had the rollsign handles. In fact somebody had it set to F: Qns Blvd/6Av/Culver. Rode to Lex.
5. Boarded R62A #1676 at 51St in search of the R142A. Found the victim headed into Parkchester.
6. Boarded R142A 7221-7230 at 177St. It was nice down the Lex express but a little shaky. The C/R had to make annoucement at 125 due to reroute. The strip map in 7230 did not light up. I like the R142 better. Got off at Canal.
7. Walked through the future Q and W stop. I guess it is about complete with the tracks and everything in place. I saw a homeless lady "moving".
8. Boarded R42 #4705 @ Canal. Nothing unusual here. Nice smooth ride over the Willy B and on the Bway el.
I assume that one of the walls at Canal will be knocked down for realignment of the tracks over there.
9. Got home in time to see the Giants up 34-0 at halftime.
All in all, not a bad day.
Train#1994Mike
Only one thing to say about the 142A: When there is a reroute, the strip maps aren't supposed to be illuminated.
Conductor made announcements? I have yet to hear the PA of the 142s work.
-Stef
Yes, the conductor made an annoucemnt. However with the doors open, there was a lot of interference. It is definitely clear with the doors close. Im sure the C/R press a button because I keep hearing a chime. Also, as we passed the skipped stations, you would hear, "This is BONG". The chime would come in. As for the strip map, even as we went down the local track at GC, the strip map still did not light up.
Train#1995Mike
Mike
Was 3559 in the middle of the train. I ask this becouse one the school car that I had last night had A set the a Handle on the rollsing.
Robert
I have heard announcements. There is a single note chime then the condcutor would speak. I rode the 142 from 149/3 to Penn and the LED interior sign showed the wrong station and the voice announced the wrong station. COnductor made annoucements to disregard the signs and the recorded voices
A CR told us that the other day, his train, sitting at 149/GC, announced that the next stop would be Borough Hall. Everyone then proceeded to get off and about half remained on the platform even after he made announce,ments that the train would make all stops in Manhattan. As we all laughed, someone observed that if a "real" CR had made such an announcement, no one would have moved and most people would have started insulting the CR; but in this case, since the 'computer" CR had said it, it must be right.
Well I had a good time today, and sure learned alot about how decrepid Chambers street on the J is, since I have never gotten off there. Pretty bad that such a large, really classic looking station sits in ruins, right in the heart of lower Manhattan. Guess it's just a sign of more bad things to come for the ignored Nassau street line.
Anyway after lunch at a really crowded Manhattan Mall food court (half the space, half the eateries) long lines and searching for a table, I headed down to the 34th street IND station.
I was fairly lucky, an R32 E pulled in a few minutes later.
Everything was going smoothly except for some noisy bums in the car (seems to be alot of bums on the E). But after Lex we caught up to an R in front of us, as it was stopped in the Roosevelt Island station.
After 5 minutes it left, and then we were stopped at Roosevelt Island while the shuttle train went past us on the other track.
Finally we move, more stop and go until Queensbridge.
Then we get a red signal at Queensbridge for nearly 8 minutes, and the C/R says there are "signal problems". We move again past a few signals, which don't clear, the T/O stops then proceeds, then finally around the first curve the signals clear.
The 63rd street tunnel seems to only be able, in my opinion, to handle one line, they way those signals are.
They had a signal problem north of 21st today around 3:30 p.m. It lasted for a pretty long time. The E line went on a 15 minute headway for a while and R service was turned back to Brooklyn at 57th St. The F was on an extended headway as well.
I've been absent from SubTalk for about 3 weeks now, but wasn't on a vacation. Wasn't in the hospital or even sick. You can say I was stuck in cyberhell because of a change from dial up internet access to cable modem, problems rendered me with eventual no access to the internet and e-mail retreival.
This started with calls to support techs at MSN to see if I could have my MSN e-mail forwarded over to Optimum on line. With each call to a different tech and finding the problem not resolved, this worsened because each "tech" advised me to change the internet settings until I wasn't able to access the internet at all.
Eventually advice from support techs from MSN and Optimum on line rendered no access to e-mail and internet access. Through this ordeal was the usual "dialog boxes" commanding name and passwords that kept repeating no matter how many times you hit [ OK ].
I dropped off the PC (H-P) at the local computer store and they couldn't find out what was wrong, 3 technicians investigated. They restored the settings, but to no avail. Days were going by and my e-mail was piling up with no way of accessing it. The computer guys reccomended formating the hard drive. This would have cost a couple of C notes at least. but I didn't go that route.
It was diagnosed but a couple of support techs that the problem was a win soc(k) error. One support tech was a female with a very thick southern accent, could only make out only half of what she was saying. (sorry anon_e_mouse!)
The first thing I did to help myslef, since no one was helping me was to uninstall Macafee Firewall. Installing Firewall sent numerous back up files to Recycle Bin. This was part of the installation. I restored the Recycle Bin and sent everything back to it's place before Macafee. It wasn't until this morning, when I finally reached SubTalk. Boy did I miss SubTalk with all the usual characters like, Train Dude, Chris R-30, Anon_e_mouse, Bill from Maspeth, Salaam, Subbus and oh yes...PIGS!
I did manage to finally access my e-mail this morning, 41 e-mails to be exact. So I'm on my way back and formatting with a HP rescue disc isn't in order. I'm no computer whiz like some of the guys here on SubTalk, but it was a helpless feeling when you have a problem and nobody seems to help. Add to this long toll free phone calls to support techs, waiting for a tech could run up to 20 minutes or so.
My friend who on occassion posts here as "Hot Lunch" came over and we straightened some things out including downloading Zonealarm. He tells me that having a dial up and cable modem connected could cause a conflict. Dial up is now disconnected. For his troubles I treated "Hot Lunch" to a hot dinner. Those onion rings should be doing a levitation act on his blankets tonight!
Even though it was 3 weeks, I really missed this site with news and personality wars to boot. HAPPY NEW everybody...... Bill "Newkirk" is back !!!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Glad to have you back... Sort of reminds me of the hell I went through to get set up on AT&T Broadband cable modem. I was forced to resort to NetZero for a time before AT&T finally got their act together and got my service set up. (To AT&T's credit, I've been very happy with the service once they finally got it working.)
BTW, the new year has come and gone and I find myself still looking at the 2000 calendar hanging on the wall next to my computer. I'm looking to buy a 2001 calendar that, ummm, possibly features some sort of transit or architectural theme, and my spider sense tells me that you might be able to reccomend a good source of such a calendar, and possibly even give instructions on how to acquire said calendar. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
David,
Are you in the NYC area ? If not I'll e-mail you instructions.
The 2001 is headed for a total sell out very soon, let me know ASAP
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm actually in Chicago (on the 54th floor of the Sears Tower at this moment, to be exact). If you see this message during the day today, e-mail me at dcole@urbandesigngroup.com. Otherwise, use my regular e-mail at DavidCole@NthWard.com. Thanks!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Welcome back. I did notice your absence. I kind of figured that you had some kind of cyberspace problem.
Glad to have you back... hope you agree that the cable modem is worth it (I love mine)...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another example of the cable company being the ESSENCE OF EVIL.
They also own Madison Square Garden, and there's nothing more EVIL than that to a good railfan.
DSL and Satellite TV is the way to go.
But there's a certain charm to AOL snatching up TimeWeenie cable. Now you can get a busy signal every time you change channels!
Unless you don't face south, can't install a dish on your building because of zoning or housing association requirements, and live more than 15000' from the phone company's CO for your exchange. And cable is faster because its speed is not dependant upon distance.
-Hank
Its dependant on how many other ppl have cable modems in your area. The cable modems are all daisy chained and speed is divided amoung users. Enjoy the good time while they last.
Let other people sell their soul to the devil because of these problems, but I don't have to worry.
I'll never willingly live in a far flung area with phone COs far from the homes, and I don't care about TV.
So you'll look for a house that's within 3 miles of the CO, that isn't on a fiber loop, and doesn't have 'problem cabling', so you can sell your soul to an phone company's unregulated product that'll dick you around for 3 months, miss 4 install dates, and not work right the first time; instead of a cable company, which makes their install date and time, or they pay you?
-Hank
Isn't "competition" spiffy? FWIW, up here in the sticks (Albany NY, home of "Capital Cablevision [AOL/TW]) Rut Rudder has so many takers, when it's up at all, you might get up to the equivalent of a 9600 baud connection ... assuming you don't mind waiting four days for your email. Up here, Verizon, NONEX or whatever they're called this week is still superior to AOL cable ...
That's why we do the "dish" thing around here - if you have a view to the southwest (gives you apartment dwellers two chances to win instead of just one) then all problems are solved. But cable's actually worse than phone in most places and thanks to NYS Public Screwing Commission, neither's going to improve in our lifetimes. :)
Welcome back to a fellow lensman from another!
1SF9
I have heard rumers that Chicago is planing on removings it els in favor of a full subway system. A few Qustions come up
1. Is it True?
2. Why hasn't it been on before now Boston and New York removed there els 30 years ago?
3. If it does happen will it be The Big Chicago style?
That's not exactly true about NY removing their els years ago. There are still plenty of els in the Bronx, Brooklyn, & Queens.
The SARGE-my homepagemy trainbuff pagemy MEMORIAL to ROOSEVELT RACEWAYmy Live World Webcam Pagemy ULTIMATE Abbott & Costello Trivia Quiz
Boston has not removed all it's els either. The Green Line is still an El near noorth station (not for long). The Red line is still an el for a short area at Charles/mgh and the Blue line is still an El in the area near Beacmont.
Beachmont on the Blue is not an elevated section. It's a solid fill overpass with a bridge over Winthrop Ave followed by the two level station. Below is the entry and pay areas leading to the platforms above.
It is the highest elevation on the Blue and we worry about getting light headed there! ;-)
There is also a distinction between Els and Elevated Subway lines in New York that doesn't exist elsewhere. In NYC an EL is a lightweight structure built before 1900, originally operated by steam trains, and never upgraded or strengthened. An Elevated Subway is a structure built or upgraded as part of a subway construction program, on which subway trains have operated or currently operate. NYC has abandoned very little of its Elevated Subway Lines, specifically, the Culver Line from 9th Av. to Ditmas Av., the Jamaica Line from 111th St. to 168th St. and the section of the Third Avenue El from Bronx Park to Gun Hill Rd. The latter was an exception to the rule as it was a new structure added to an existing Elevated Line. The entire portion of the Third Avenue Line north of 149th St. was upgraded and after abandonment south of that point was run with subway equipment. The only portion of the original el system still existing which has not been significantly upgraded is the section of the Jamaica Line from East New York to Cypress Hills, where the difference in design is quite evident. This structure can handle heavyweight subway cars, but its sharp curves prohibit the use of 75' cars. Another 'neither fish nor fowl' section was the outer end of the Fulton St. line between Broadway Junction and 88th Av. which was operated with specially designed lightweight subway cars after the inner end was abandoned in 1940. It was abandoned in 1956 when the Rockaway line took over the section out to Lefferts Blvd.
As far as Chicago is concerned the biggest abandonment was the Garfield Park line back about 1950, which was replaced by the present route via the Eisenhauer Expy. An offshoot of this abandoment was the replacement of the connecting trackage from the Garfield Line to the Logan Sq. line with a subway under Milwaukee Av. which connects to the other end of the Eisenhauer line. A small section of the Jackson Park line, and the short Stockyards and Normal Park branches account for all of the other abandonment.
Existing original L's in Chicago:
South Side: from the Loop to Englewood and Jackson Park
Metropolitan: Douglas Branch and a short section of the Logan Sq. line.
Lake St: From the Loop to the railroad embankment.
Northwestern: Main Line to Howard, and Branch to Ravenswood.
And of course the Loop itself!
Philadelphia has totally rebuilt its Frankford Av. line and abandoned inner parts of both the Market and Frankford segments.
Boston Has abandoned all of its original Elevated line including the extensions to Forest Hills (1987) and Everett(1975), the Atlantic Av. Line (1938),. the Washington St. Tunnel Connector (1987) and the Tremont St Subway Connector (1908...1935). Only one Elevated Station remains in place. and that is the Atlantic Av. Shuttle terminal at North Station, which will succumb when that section of the Lecmmere Viaduct comes down in a few years. The section from Science Park Station to Lechmere has a more secure future however, though the Lechmere facility may be relocated across the street. BTW that end is not over a street but rather a rail branch. The section from the Beacon Hill portal to Charles Station probably qualifies as an el, though it is extremely short and does not follow a street for any distance. I agree with Boston T Party on the Beachmont Viaduct especially since the rebuilding of some years back.
Even if you do take the "New York is an island" view of things (which I like, Greater NYC should be dissolved and restored to its 1873 layout), there is still the 1/9 at 125 and above Dyckman.
I think your information is about 50 years late.
At one point there was a movement to replace some of the L's -- including the downtown Loop -- with subways, but the various schemes have died off due to lack of public support, lack of funding, and/or lack of political ambition.
With the new Orange Line to Midway, the elevated portion of the CTA has expanded considerably over the past few years, and with Brown Line trains now running through the Loop on weekends, the existing L's are seeing more service.
The major capital projects on the CTA's plate right now are A) the rebuilding of the Douglas branch of the Blue Line, and B) the rebuilding of stations along the Brown Line to accomidate 8-car trains and to meet ADA requirements. In no case will either L be replaced by a subway.
There are a few routes I'd like to see added to the CTA system and some of them would run in new subways, but I'm not aware of anybody who is advocating a wholesale replacement of the L with a subway. Anyway, the CTA is having a hard enough time maintaining its existing infrastructure without worrying about building an entirely new infrastructure.
This is Chicago, not New York. We love our Cubs, we love our deep-dish pizza, we love our blues, and we love our L, thank you very much. Unlike New York, our neighborhoods are beautiful enough that we like to be able to actually see them as we pass through them on the way to work. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
From what I understand, isn't the L more practical in Chicago, since the city was built on a muddy plain? I'm not an engineer, but I'm guessing it might be easier to tunnel through Manhattan's granite than Chicago's softer foundation. Just pondering...
Mark Michalovic
You're right that Chicago was virtually built on a swamp, and I believe that was a major reason no subways were built until the 1940's. I assume by that time, tunelling technology had been developed to a degree that made it more feasible for subway construction. All of Chicago's subways are of deep-bore construction (as opposed to cut-and-cover) through the hard pan clay below the "mud". I'm not an engineer either, so I have no idea how difficult hard clay is to tunnel through compared to New York's granite.
I suspect that the biggest factor behind construction of the L's as opposed to subways, however, was money: The top priority for Chicago's original traction magnates was to make a quick profit, and construction of an el required far less of an upfront expense than a subway and therefore offered a much quicker return on the dollar.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Remember the freight tunnels built in clay.
Arti
Were these the ones which flooded much of the city 10 years ago?
Don't know, but I remember reading about it someplace.
Arti
Eight years ago, actually, during one of the more bizzaire episodes in Chicago's history. The Great Loop Flood of 1992 was started when contractors working on the Kinzie Street Bridge drove a piling through the roof of one of the abandoned frieght tunnels, flooding the entire tunnel system and in turn flooding every basement and subway line in downtown. (Can we say, "Oops.")
The flooding was already well underway before city crews finally discovered its source. Clue #1: Contrary to what happens during most floods throughout human history, the river level was dropping as opposed to rising. Clue #2: The mysterious appearance of a small whirlpool near the Kinzie Street Bridge. It took several days and several failed attempts to stop the water, several months to clean up the mess and make repairs, and several years for a few dozen lawyers to figure out just who's fault it was. (The city said the contractor should have known the tunnel was down there. The contractor said they were never informed of its presence. In the end, Hizzoner Daley deemed some low-level city employee as the official scapegoat.)
During the episode, somebody from out of town called Mike Royko at the Chicago Tribune and asked him to comment on how the flood was affecting him. He replied that the water was almost up to his fourth floor window and hung up.
-- David
Chicago, IL
As I recall, 1992 was also the year when an accident occurred on the Michigan Ave. bridge. One of the bridge leaves was being re-paved, and was wedged in the down position. The wedge gave way, casing the unbalanced leaf (pavement removed, much lighter than usual) to move violently upward propelling a piece of construction equipment (can you say catapault) into a parked car a block away (destroying the car; fortunately, nobody injured).
At the end of the year, someone commented that Chicago was "the city where rivers leak and bridges fall up".
-- Ed Sachs
Wow, I had never heard of that incident (I didn't move to Chicago until June of the following year). I would have paid good money to watch that, though... Sounds like something straight out of The Blues Brothers!
It would have been poetic justice if the unfortunate car was an illegally-parked SUV. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
If you want to know more about the freight tunnels and the "great flood" of a few years ago, go here:
Chicago Tunnel company memorial site
Very true, I hadn't thought of those. There were also vehicular / streetcar tunnels under the Chicago River at (IIRC) LaSalle and Van Buren Streets which predated the Great Chicago Fire of 1871 and served as a means of escape from the Loop during the fire.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Chicago streetcar tunnels found their real calling during the latter part of the 19th century, when Chicago boasted a large network of Cable Cars. Figuring out how to get the moving cable across the river, spanned by draw bridges, was an engineering problem, solved by routing the cable cars through tunnels beneath the river.
The tunnels survived into the electric streetcar era, but in the later years were used primarily to reroute the cars when the bridges were open for river traffic.
-- Ed Sachs
These I'm not familiar with, and I don't recall anything about them in the books I have on Chicago streetcars... any more information you might have about them?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There were plans to build subways as early as the teens. I've read most of the original plans and can recall no mention of serious engineering problems associated with the swampiness.
As recently as 25 years ago there were very serious plans to replace the loop and other L's in the vicinty (Ravenswood up to Armitage, Lake to just past Halsted and South Side main to about 16th or so) with subways.
The reason why none of this happened is "money" .
If anyone wants to read up on these the Municpal Reference Collection at Washington Library has many of the original plans.
Very interesting to think what the city would've look like today if they hadn't been such cheapskates back then!
>Very interesting to think what the city would've look like today if >they hadn't been such cheapskates back then!
Maybee like Boston where all Els construction stopped in 1912. Many of the origanal plans for Routs Malden for one did not happen till the 70s. Boston would be much larger and have a better transit system if NIMBYs hadn't stoped the ELs 90 years ago
25 years ago was during the reign of Old Man Daley, the same man who wanted to plow a crosstown expressway through Chicago's West Side. (To Daley's credit, at least he incorporated rapid transit lines into two of the three expressways that he did build.) Also, the historic preservation movement was just getting started around that time, so it may as well have been in the Dark Ages compared to today's climate. Now that Chicago's els are appreciated for the unique historic landmarks they are, I doubt anybody would be able to get away with demolishing them, certainly not the downtown Loop anyway.
Besides, I actually like the els as opposed to subways, and I think most Chicagoans would agree with me... Chicago is a beautiful city with many beautiful neighborhoods -- even the gritty slums and industrial areas have a certain beauty to them if you know how to see it -- and it's nice to be able to appreciate that on my way to and from work each day.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Ike was incorporated around an existing transit line.
The subway plans of the teens and twenties generally called for concrete elevated structures for outlying areas.
The subway plans in the 70's reached their final form under Bilandic. Remember Daley died 25 years ago! Replacing the L was but a part. there was also to be genuine new service connecting UIC, the Metra stations, North Michigan and McCormick place.
The abandoned LRT plans you may be familiar with were put together after this fell through.
Historic preservation here is laughable, see: Ronnie's steak shack on Randolph, Nordstrom's, or the plans for Soldier Field, the ticky tacky condos (with homey, bourgeois friendly red brick and brass fixtures) going up on every corner of the northside.
I prefer the wonderful old buildings to anything else, but I prefer honest, and forward looking even if it be glass and steel to the affected, nostalgic crap I have to look at every day.
The Ike was incorporated around an existing transit line.
I was actually thinking of the Kennedy and Dan Ryan expressways. (Stevenson being the third; construction on the Ike was started before Daley took office.)
Historic preservation here is laughable, see: Ronnie's steak shack on Randolph, Nordstrom's, or the plans for Soldier Field, the ticky tacky condos (with homey, bourgeois friendly red brick and brass fixtures) going up on every corner of the northside.
I couldn't agree with you more on that one. Chicago is looking more and more like a dumbed-down Main Street Disneyland each year, with hundreds of mediocre buildings designed with fake ambiance designed to recall a fantasy-world Chicago that never existed. True, the city is much cleaner and more popular than it has ever been, and that should be applauded, but in the process it's starting to lose all the unique characteristics that make Chicago what it is. Nothing makes my skin crawl more than the prospect of Chicago becoming yet another giant suburb like Phoenix or Atlanta.
However, as bad as things are now, it has been worse. Remember how Louis Sullivan's masterpiece Chicago Stock Exchange was replaced by a dull office building in an architectural travesty on the same scale as New York's demolition of Penn Station. (With Penn Station, at least Penn was put out of its misery by being dumped in the Meadowlands; the carnage of the Stock Echange is on public display on the grand hall of the Art Institute, a constant painful reminder of just how stupid this city was to demolish it.) Now, there are a handful of high-profile projects currently under construction or on the drawing boards by world-class, forward-looking architects like Rem Koolhaus and Norman Foster. And as shameful as John Buck's continuing rape of Michigan Avenue is today, at least he had to go through a protracted fight to do it. I suppose we should be thankful he wasn't building his crap 25 years ago, because it would have been much worse crap and there would have been much more of it.
I prefer the wonderful old buildings to anything else, but I prefer honest, and forward looking even if it be glass and steel to the affected, nostalgic crap I have to look at every day.
I'm a huge fan of the "steel-and-glass look" myself; I'll take the Hancock Center any day of the week over the fake-vintage knock-offs being built nowadays. That steel-and-glass look was born here in Chicago, although unfortunately the most forward-looking architecture being designed in that vein is now in Europe and Japan by the likes of Norman Foster, Richard Rogers, Renzo Piano, Tadao Ando and Santiago Calatrava. We're still in the Dark Ages compared to these guys right now, but hopefully the pendelum will swing back around to Chicago eventually. Chicago has gone through mediocre phases like this before, and eventually regained its senses each time and gone on to push the boundaries of modern architecture even further.
There is some recent good news: The Pritzger Family just announced plans to build a 50+ story headquarters building for the Hyatt Corporation on Wacker Drive. It will be designed by Norman Foster, the same architect of the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank Building pictured below:
Check out many other projects on Norman Foster's website at www.fosterandpartners.com.
My only complaint is that these recent high-profile projects are being given to famous out-of-town architects as opposed to allowing some of Chicago's own design talent to flex its muscle, but I suppose we should be thankful for what we're getting.
The truly scary part of all this is that as bad as Chicago architecture is right now, it's actually pretty good compared to what's going up in many other U.S. cities. What Chicago considers mediocre design is usually considered landmark quality in most other parts of the country.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'm with you Dave. Chicago is my "adopted" city even though I was born and raised in the Bronx. I enjoy trains whether subway, surface, or el but given my druthers would "L' thru the city instead of being underground.Best sightseeing you can get but then commuters don't usually watch the passing scene. Chicago wouldn't be Chicago without the L. BTW that's what the "l" at the end of my handle is for.."L".
Cool. What does the rest of your username mean?
:-) Andrew
Handle means Big ed irt man (hattan) el man--L spelled Chi.style.
Irt man and Manhattan el man in other words, and Chicago L simply with the letter L. Couldn't fit the NY Central and Pennsy's electric operation into that word! But covers my 3 favorites.
Well. Very interesting. Thanks.
:-) Andrew
I'm kind of curious just what people prefer in general, after all this discussion. I like subways on principle, but I have to say I enjoy being able to see scenery and daylight on an elevated, and with no static reference point to look at in a dark tunnel, subways sometimes make me a bit seasick. The air is usually more breathable in the outside stations, too.
Mark Michalovic
As a rider, I prefer els for the reason you mentioned, but as a resident, I prefer subways, because els are noisy and blot out the sun. But then, els are a lot cheaper, so you can get a biggre system for the same amount of money with els.
The original purpose and plan of the IND was to be under ground. Safer, faster and out of the eliments (Blizzard of 1888) but the War part 2 and soaring cost made capture and takeover desireable.
Now here, they are not even faster or safer and almost I repeat almost all lines have portions above ground.
avid
Yeah, I know what you mean. I've been rooting for a subway if the Roosevelt Boulvevard line ever gets built to northeast Philly, just because the boulevard is pretty as it is with its tree-lined median, and an above ground train would wipe it all out.
Of course that's line is going ot be a long time in coming...
Mark
Els blotting out the sun? Who'd notice with all those huge buildings? :)
For me: it depends.
You're right that Chicago was virtually built on a swamp, and I believe that was a major reason no subways were built until the
1940's
The Boston green line goes is built largley in fill. The Back Bay part of the green line is cut and cover and was built in the 1910s. However building had an effect on the water table causeing problems on both sides. That is also one reson why the stations look so old. A beleve no new subways will ever be built in the back bay as it would cost to much with todays gov't regs.
Most of the Green line in boston is Built in fill. However from what I understand no new subways may be built in the back bay.
Not a chance; Chicago opened a new elevated line (the Orange Line to Midway) within the last decade. It's not very plausible even if you're thinking only of the Loop "L" and its immediate connectors. The money isn't there, and, even if it were, the Loop "L" by now has become a cultural icon whose loss would be seen by most Chicagoans as a detriment to the central business district. I am curious, though, as to where you heard this story.
Alan Follett
While riding the eastbound LIRR Atlantic Avenue line on Friday afternoon from the front railfan window, I spotted a pair of trackways branching off to the right in the tunnel between East NY and the closed Woodhaven station. These were more than bellmouths - they were trackways that extended further than I could see.
Anyone know what these were used for or if they were ever used?
There used to be a physical connection to the Atlanic Ave. line and the old Rockaway Beach branch (Now the A train). I'm not sure if this connection was east or west of the old Woodhaven station.
West
avid
Thats where the Atlantic Ave . Branch connected to the Rockaway Branch. That led to the Ozone Park Station. There were cross overs that required tower work. It would have been great if fly under and overs were in place. If so, they'd be in Rail od transit service now.
avid.
P.S. The astute student should also note that similar tunnels exist near Franklyn avenue . At one time , I'm not sure under what name, the LIRR or an ancestor had a branch off to the Franklyn Ave line.
Watch carefully next time heading west on the LIRR
A.
There was a connection from the Atlantic Ave. line to the Brighton (Franklin Ave.) line, but that was back when the LIRR was still at street level - prior to about 1903. When the tunnel was built under Atlantic Ave., the short tunnel was built in anticipation of connecting again with the Brighton line, but that connection was never made.
Aren't those the connections to LIRR Vanderbilt yard???
I was hoping that the new AirTrain would use that very same tackway you mentioned and save the cost of construction, but they would never listen to us little people.
I was hoping that the new AirTrain would use that very same tackway you mentioned and save the cost of construction,
Cost savings was not part of the PA design specification.
I just walked half a mile home from Home Depot lugging 75 pounds of shelving units. There is no bus line from the shopping centers on South Delaware Ave up to Society Hill! And to think, If I didn't live in a dense, transit rich area, I wouldn't need shelves up to the ceiling in my tiny apt.
I just walked half a mile home from Home Depot lugging 75 pounds of shelving units. There is no bus line from the shopping centers on South Delaware Ave up to Society Hill! And to think, If I didn't live in a dense, transit rich area, I wouldn't need shelves up to the ceiling in my tiny apt.
Things could get worse. A couple of weeks ago, my wife and I spent almost $100 on these shelving units at Home Depot, to use in our food-storage closet. Yesterday afternoon, we heard a huge crash and saw, in the food closet, what looked like the aftermath of a 7.5 earthquake. Home Depot's "rugged" shelving units couldn't withstand the weight of cans and boxes of food products.
We haven't finished cleaning up the Godawful mess.
(I just walked half a mile home from Home Depot lugging 75 pounds of shelving units. There is no bus line from the shopping centers on South Delaware Ave up to Society Hill! And to think, If I didn't live in a dense, transit rich area, I wouldn't need shelves up to the ceiling in my tiny apt.)
Here in NYC, the usual plan is to combine purchases into one big shopping trip, take transit or walk to a store, than take a taxi or car service home. Perhaps Philly needs more immigrants, so it can come up with more car services.
Home Depot has pickup trucks you can rent for an hour for $20, I think. Might not be worth it just for shelves, but I guess that depends on the shelves. I'm doing a renovation project right now, and continually have to ask to borrow friends' cars for Home Depot runs. This my first time living the city that mass transit has not met my needs and I've wanted my own car...
Before I got my car I learned how to bring 6 x 9 area rugs home using my bicycle as a pack-mule and walking it. The trick also worked for assemble-at-home bookshelves and the like.
Mark Michalovic
Philly does need more immigrants. The city is drying up, whereas NY is 40% foreign-born. Shutting down the Washington St. Immigration Station in 1915 was the first of many blows to Philly. We used to be Second City (of the British Empire). Philly and NY have similar rates of emigration (to the suburbs, to the Sunbelt), but we don't have the influx to keep the population stable. Declining population=less impetus for expanded transit.
I guess the closest thing that that area has to real bus service is the 25, but that just stays on Delaware Avenue. It connects to the el at Spring Garden Station, but doesn't directly serve Market St. The 63 and 64, both infrequent, run on Front Street, a ways from Delaware Avenue at that point, and the 29 terminates there. What would be nice for residential neighborhoods near Center City would be buses like the 33 and 17 that run on Market Street, and then turn north or south, but that serve the east side of town instead of the west side of town. (Ex. Route begins at 30th, goes east on Market or Chestnut until it goes over I-95 bridge and gets to Delaware Avenue, and then proceeds south). But this could not be done because there is no room on east-west streets, because el paralleling buses take up that space (e.g. 21).
What do you mean there's no room for other busses? Unless you're talking 2 minute headways, there's always room for more busses. I used to live on the 17, and it was very convenient to get to CC East. I too would like a service from the South St. Area to the Art Museum area. It could also extend South to Delaware Ave. Big Box shopping. What about a Pine/Lombard Route? They're not as packed as Chestnut/Walnut.
I'm talking here about Walnut, Chestnut, and Market. Market and JFK may not be too bad west of City Hall, but between 5th Street and City Hall, Market is packed. Especially westbound. With only 2 traffic lanes and many SEPTA and NJT buses, there is no more room at peak. Market Street east may be able to fit something. Chestnut and Walnut may be able to fit more buses, but the traffic on Walnut can get horrible. Arch has plenty of bus room, but there again, the traffic could get horrible. A Pine and Lombard, or Pine and Spruce routing could work traffic-wise, but there may not be much demand for one. But a possible routing that may work would be Delaware Avenue to Dock, then onto Spruce, stays on Spruce until Broad Street, then north on Broad to City Hall. Southbound would use City Hall down Broad or 15th to Pine, east until Front, then onto Spruce and Delaware Avenue. An alternate Saturday routing could have the bus going straight down Market, because the demand in Center City is east of City Hall, but that may make things too confusing.
Shit, seeing your name just reminded me of the DVARP ballot which I never sent in. Oh well, with 10 candidates for 9 spots I'm sure you'll make it. If, however, you lose by one vote you're welcome to come and beat the crap out of me.
According to the Fed, Philly does need more immigrants. Here is a link to an interesting Fed of Philadelphia report on the region's economy, which details the lack of foreign immigrants, among other things. The report has nothing earth shattering but is well written and worth checking out.
phillyguy, isn't it a stretch to pin the lack of immigration now to the closing of the receiving station in 1915, given the dearth of emigration in the 30s - 60s? After all, Ellis Island is closed too! Then again, why doesn't Philly get immigrants? An interesting question. Oh well, enjoy the inexpensive housing!
Everyone knows that nights the F is running through 63rd. Anyone check the date? Until August 1st. That's one long-assed G.O. The elimination of B service to QB(as shown on the new map) implies the end of the shuttle service as well, and thus the end of F 53st weekend service forever. Don't you see what's happened? When the 53st work is done, you will end up with E and R normal, and the F via 63rd every weekend. It will be under cover as a G.O., but by August people will be so used to it they won't complain about the V, it will appear to be a new service. The idea was not to familiarize people with the connector, but to associate the F with it!
I have either a bad cold or the flu, forgive me if I appear to be rambling.
I think that you are right, and that the F will never again operate 24/7 via 53d St.
But what hours is the F via 63rd St. route going to be in effect? Will it run that way whenever the Q is not running? If so, that is certainly longer than the normal definition of "late nights" - unless they plan to extend the hours of Q operation until 11 or so.
On the other hand, if there is an interval of several hours between the last Q and the first F via 63rd St., what would serve 57th/6th and the 63rd St. line stations during the interim? Running a shuttle to 57/7th for a few hours each evening would be very confusing, since people boarding at Queensbridge, Roosevelt Island or Lex/63rd could never be sure if they would get a train via 6th Ave. or via the BMT Broadway line, and it would aso require closing the station at 57th/6th for a few hours each evening. Not a good plan. So what will be the hours of operation for the Q and for the rerouted F?
With the shuttle and even regular Q service no one ever knew if they would end up on Broadway or 6th. They accept the fact that they usually have no choice. Anyway the Q stops running at 10, and the F notice states "10PM to 5AM."
Didn't even know there WAS a new map!
:-) Andrew
I knew no one saw this post!
I figured that is what the folks at 370 Jay Street were up to.
No rocket science here, but there will be many who will be inonvenienced.
Yes, but without NIMBY interference!
avid
I was riding PATH today, and I couldn't figure out the signaling system. I know there's plenty of documentation on NYCT signaling, but is there any examples of PATH? I suspect its signal system, (red-yellow-green), combinations are totally different. They also use many signals with three signal heads. PATH's trippers seem to react a little slower as well. Its about 10 seconds after a train passes the signal before they come up. I also forget which side the trip arm is on.
The trip arm is on the left. Somewhere on this site, there's an explanation of the PATH signal system, I'm too lazy to look for it though....
Here's the full explanation:
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/path/signals/
Though I have never been on PATH, the signalling guide makes it sound extremely similar to that on Broad Street. PATH does not use the types of wayside signals employed on NYCT and the Market Frankford Line, in which on an interlocking signal, the top signal for block control, the bottom for track alignment (green=main track, yellow=diverting track). On Broad Street, and PATH, the interlocking signals work with the top signal being for the track on the right, and the botton signal for the track on the left. Their color also represents block control. (ex. Yellow over Red means approach right track, red over green means clear left track). Hence, at all times, at least one signal must be red.
I believe that the BSS uses a signaling system simmilar to the IRT with the top signal displaying the main route and the other signal dealing with a diverging route. As for PATH, for a railroad they devoloped a pretty unique signaling system. I'd like them to still use PRR position lights.
Just to clarify, the BSS uses left and right, not main and diverting. I don't know if any other railroad does this. The interlocking signals are labeled with R or L to signify which is the diverging track. I believe that the regular signals are labeled by block number.
Nope nope nope. The signals are labeled L and R beause of the US&S interlocking system. On a US&S interlocking machine switches and signals are wired pairs (w/ some "odd" exceptions). The US&S machines work by having handle moved back and forth in an arc. If you look at an interlocking you'll notice that its usually pretty semetrical. Instead of having each switch and signal getting a seperate number they are arranged in logical pairs. If you imagine a simple 2 track full crossover you have 4 signals and 4 switches.
-oo oo-
-----------
/ \
-----------
-oo oo-
In US&S switches are odd and signals are even. If you look you can see that if lets say a signal on the right is cleared its opposite on the left will have to be red. Therefore they signals are controled by the same lever and labeled something like 4R and 4L. Moving the lever right clears 4R, moving it left clears 4L. Also each part of crossover (/ xor \) has 2 switches. Operating them seperatly makes no sence so both motors are wired to the same lever and given the same number. The lever poritions would be normal and reverse. The actual switch designations would be usually 3E and 3W and 5E and 5W for this X over. The signals would be 6L, 6R, 4L and 4R.
PATH does not use the types of wayside signals employed on NYCT and the Market Frankford Line, in which on an interlocking signal, the top signal for block control, the bottom for track alignment (green=main track, yellow=diverting track).
Just to clarify, the scheme to which you refer above is the NYCT B-Division signaling scheme. While I can't speak with any degree of authority on PATH signals, the old IRT signals (now found only on the #2 line between 149th St. and Bronx Park East) indeed worked in a similar fashion to PATH, as described in a previously-quoted link. i.e. the top head governs one route and the bottom head governs a different route with one head always displaying a red aspect. In the case of the old IRT scheme, the top head governs the through route (i.e. with the switch set to "normal") and the bottom head governs the diverging route (i.e. the switch set for movements to another track).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
And if you're interested in actual wiring diagrams, perhaps to compare with some of the info on the NYC system found on this web site, take a look at this schematic. Part of the interlocking diagram for the same area can be seen here. (Hopefully these will be 2 different URL's this time 8-).
If anyone has any suggestions for how this should be presented once I update my permanent H&M/PATH pages, I'm all ears - these are huge blueprints. Does it make sense to scan them whole, or would it be better to chop it into more-easily-explained segments with links to the other segments?
What is the date on those drawings? That's very old
signal nomenclature.
The schematic is January 18, 1922 and the interlocking is October 6, 1932. Some of the materials are a lot older than that (going back to the 1874 original start of excavations, though there isn't any signaling material from before 1906 or so.
Those are very interesting diagrams. What size are they, 36x42?
How did you plan to scan them>
They're various sizes. The smallest are 19.5" x 30" and the largest are 42" by 40 feet. The small ones are individual signal details while the longest are complete track sections with interconnect lists and references to the individual sheets.
I have a flatbed scanner that goes up to 12" x 22", give or take. Above that I have to take them out to be put on a drum scanner. I'm not sure what the longest drawing is that the drum can handle. Another thought would be to make prints from them and then scan the prints (and I'd be less worried about folding/scrunching the prints than the originals).
largest are 42" by 40 feet
I'm guessing that's a typo?!
I asked about the scanning because we are running into a similar
problem at the Branford Shore Line Trolley Museum. Many of
our drawings would benefit from digital archiving, but they are
far too large to scan on a flatbed, and rolling through a drum
scanner seems unadvisable.
No, 40 feet isn't a typo. Most are at least somewhat shorter than that, though. The most common scale on the large ones is 1" = 20', which means that a drawing of a 1-mile section of track is 22' long.
Judging by your email address, you're part of Branford (I'm regrettably uninformed about BERA). If you'd be interested, I could come up there some time with some of my documents and see if they'd be of use to you, either as items-on-loan, or via copies for your use. In particular, I think I have the mortgage papers and contract for your #503 8-) Why don't you drop me a email message off the board to discuss this further?
SOURCE: PATH Engineer
There are two types of signals Z and X signals. The Z signals are similar to NYCT automatic signals while X signals are similar to NYCT homeballs.
Z signals do have one interesting feature: The colors are Red, Yellow, Yellow over Yellow, and green. The Yellow over Yellow is one I asked the engineer about. I was told the double yellow is a timer signal (similar to NYCT grade timer signals).
There are several interesting X signals such as between Grove and Exchange Place-- signal RA 123X and RB 123X. Top Double Yellow indicates train will go to Exchange Place and WTC. Bottom double yellow indicates train will go to Pavonia Newport. North of Pavonia is another such X signal to indicate Hoboken or NYC Midtown.
When a train approaches that signal it remains red over red until the train arrives and then the proper location will go double yellow and the other show as red.
I will ride that line next week and get signal numbers for both direction normal running
Back in the day the PATH (H&M) would run on PRR pasenger tracks from Exchange Plact (WALDO) to Newark (DOCK). They were governed by PRR PL and cab signals, were dispatched by PRR interlocking towers and ran on the same line with MP-54's, GG-1's, K-4's and sometimes even P-5 /E-44 freighters. If you wonder why the NEC is only 3 track between Newark and HUDSON yard its because it used to be 5 tracks before the PATH became seperate. Also the junction where the PATH goes its seperate way was the flying junction where the PRR line to Harbourside Terminal diverged from the line to Penn Station. There's a lot of history in the PATH.
There's still a section of the PATH ROW from the portal to just east of HACK that has active freight service along side in the same cut.
An historical question: which happened first, the construction of Penn Station Newark as a replacement for the station a few blocks away (can't remember the street -- Center Street?) or the termination of PRR service to Exchange Place?
Penn Station Newark came first by probably 30 years.
-Dave
The current Newark Penn dates to the '30s - when did Exchange Place service end?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If there's enough interest in it (meaning enough people ask for it that I'll spend a week doing it rather than anything else 8-) I can post a list of signals and [pseudo-] chaining numbers for the underground part of the system, excluding WTC. The above-ground parts and WTC have changed enough from the drawings I have that I'd have to go survey those. Perhaps we could combine efforts?
Terry. I am interested. I'll cover the 33rd line next week and Hoboken.
Great! My info for near 33rd will be historical (the pre-IND-rebuild of the station). Email me a couple days before you start and I'll type in the info for the parts of the system you'll be covering so you can just "check off" each matching signal and note where there have been changes since my drawings were made.
Pro of new 63rd Street service: Customers traveling Queens-bound from Lexington and 53rd will have a choice of either express or local service. This means less crowding because of transfers at the Queens Plaza station. People won't transfer from locals to expresses or vise versa. If you want a local station in Queens, get on the V at Lexington and 53rd. If you want to go express, get an E.
This is also true in the other direction. Customers who want the 6 train and are on the local, V, won't have to transfer to an express to get to Lexington. The problem is people on the F will have to transfer at Roosevelt if they want to get to Lexington Avenue.
Everyone forgets the R has a more useful and shorter transfer to the Lex. Anyone wanting QB local would probably go for the R at 59th rather than the V. Plus, there's no 23/ely in the way.
A few other pros I've thought of:
6th ave / QB express-local service. That's where less transfers at QP will come from.
Eastern Queens riders who come from places in Manhattan other than the Lex can now choose a train which avoids the transfer entirely. That rules! Even with the MC transfer, lets face it. Will you really walk 4 blocks to the F when at that same station (59th/Lex) there's a perfectly good R, or at 53rd there's an enclosed transfer? That means in either direction much more people will leave the F at 63rd/lex than will board, resulting in a better chance at getting a seat after the station. Currently at 53rd/Lex the train nearly empties out then fills up again.
Eastern Queens riders get express, direct ride access to 57st. Sure, express buses do that too, but they're double the fare and have to fight traffic all through Manhattan, plus Manhattan-bound it's near the end of the route.
As you can tell, I like the V plan exactly as it is, except it still should go to 179st. The Concourse line in the Bronx has a full-fledged local during rush hours, what gives 169st and Sutphin/Hillside riders the right to bitch about it? All buses that serve 169st also serve other stations nearby with express service (Parsons/Archer, Parsons/Hillside, 179st). And Sutphin/Hillside is within Walking distance of Sutphin/Archer. The E could go local east of 71/Continental at all times, retaining 75ave and Van Wyck Blvd's direct express service.
If the R and V are Queens Blvd. locals and one terminates at CTL and the other at 179, the V would always get tied up getting thru CTL. Crews on the R have to change, sometimes 2 R's would be back to back if a V is late, all passengers have to be removed from all R trains (rule) so it can relay.
I see no problem terminating one train at Continental while continuing another. Logically, wether all trains will terminate there or not, they will all enter carrying passengers, thus be tied up in the tunnel with passengers (as I frequently am on the G). And unless the train is going to the yard, the "comprehensive search" for stragglers is limited to a glance through the windows, if even. I do see a problem originating a train while providing through service, though, because of the obligatory sitting there for several minutes. If a crew had to change, couldn't they board before the relay and do the change in the relay? The first T/O pulls it in, the replacement pulls it out and continues. If not, the V could be sent to the express track and back to the local while an R blocks the local track. During rush hour this would be impractical, but trains relay faster at that time so the V wouldn't be held for very long (maybe the faster relaying has something to do with that double-bell ringing at departure time).
I hope when they get all the R-142a's ready, they don't replace every Redbird. I think they should only replace the ones that are in real bad shape. If one has no problems, or can be fixed very inexpensively, they should keep it. Throwing away a perfectly good train is a waste.
And by the way, why are they even putting R-142a's on the 6 line. The 6 is mostly R-62s. Why don't they start putting new trains on the 5. It's all Redbirds.
They are putting the R142As on the 6 line because, then they can move the R62As out to the 7 line to replace the "redbirds" out there.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry Andee, but from what I heard is that the R62A can NOT fit in the tunnel between VJ and GC Station. Something about the marker lights getting messed up every time they go through that tunnel. So expect to see Redbirds on the 7 for a little while longer. The R36 ML that are on the 6 will come over to the 7 once all of the R142As there arrive.
The tunnel light problem croppped up when the cars first arrived 16 years ago, but have been fixed, so the R-62s can be used on the Flushing Line. However, with the reports that some of the R-36 ML cars have started popping up on the No. 7 train, the MTA may be rethinking their idea of sending the R-62s out there for now and may make Flushing the last stand for the `birds.
The Corona R-33/36 WF fleet seems to be holding up the best, maintenance-wise, of any of the older cars right now, based on Train Dude's post of a couple of weeks ago. That's probably because the same cars have been operating out of that yard for the past 37 years, which may be some sort of record for one single fleet of NYC subway cars at one specific location.
It's got to be the all-time New York record for exclusive service on one line by one fleet. The R-10s served the A for 29 years before the slant R-40s bumped them off, so to speak.
The Redbirds are NOT going to fly away.
last everyone heard, they were gonna sail.
Ha, ha, ha. What is the emoticon for sarcasm?
; c l
you mean sink. yet some are gonna stick around a little bit longer.
No, they're going to swim.
Redfish.
Red Snapper?
Sail or Sale?
Hope for the latter..
The problem in the Steinway Tunnel has been fixed. The biggest problem keeping the Redbirds around IMHO is the lack of the "door sensor" technology that the rest of the fleet has been upgraded to.
The TA has been blasted in the papers for the latest draggings all done with the Redbirds. Now I think draggings are almost equal to grade crossing accidents and blame it on the passanger/driver for their stupid actions but that is not how the papers play it.
40 years of service = far more credible
than a mere "door sensor" copout when in
passenger tow..
40 years of service also means ready for the scrapper. The redbirds are doomed. cky few will be preserved, but unlike buses which have miles and miles of roadway, Redbirds operate on special tracks. Their resale value is almost nonexistant. With all the newer equipment and better used equipment, whose going to buy a Redbird?
100% agreement with you !! in los angeles the blue green red line
BRAND NEW cars are aging fast & falling apart VS the old los angeles
railway cars & the old PE system cars !!
The OLD STUFF was just made better " QUALITY MATERIAL" !!!!!!
right on south ferry!! keep in touch !!
Perhaps if you drive, you will drive a 1983 Honda Civic with 500,000+ mileage on it because it's "old stuff" rather than a "brand new" 2001 Honda Civic. Explain your reasoning as to why you would rather drive the 1983 model. And why would you think the 2001 model is falling apart even before it is being leased or sold on the market?
Please do not claim this post as offtopic. I'm very curious as to your reasoning to the R142/R142A.
Are these the New L A cars built by Breda if so that would explain the problem.
To those persons that are non-railfans, the new cars are welcomed. Most of these people will not give the cars a second glance.
To those persons who are railfans; they are interested in the history, workings, variety of trains, and therefore take a different kind of notice of the rolling stock.
Many people drive antique cars, by the way.
I drove a 1956 Buick until my divorce. Had it 14 years. My only regret..if you did break down which wasn't often you could be stranded for two weeks before parts showed up..and be glad you could get them. Other than that it did me better than one new one (69 Checker--what a dog) I once had.
I was going to bite my tongue and figure everyone else said enough..lets lay an R29 vs. R142....the redbirds work and always did [except during years of neglect]. The design worked. The R142 doesn't. Neither have a lot of other lemons. If trials can't be a success (R110a) why order hundreds of cars?
I wouldn't mind a new cargo van..I'm just to cheap to buy one, but I'd want it to work for the money.
Another 85,000 miles and my (R-32, BMT standard, Triplex, take your pick) Jeep will have 500,000 miles. It may very well become reality.
Wasn't there a dragging at 23-Ely recently, where an R-46 was the culprit?
I must agree with you Lou. Everytime another passenger gets dragged, no matter what caused it, the Red Birds get closer to becoming Red Fish. Enjoy them while you can !
Mr t__:^)
The first part of this post is a complaint about the lack of direct service from Wissahickon T.C. to Olney Terminal. To cure this problem, I think that bus routes 65 and 26 should be combined. While this may hurt on time performance, it will provide a one seat ride from Wissahickon to Olney, which is probably something that a good number of people would want to use. It would also provide other one seat rides not already provided for.
The second part of my post is about the Schuylkill Valley Metro, and how if service frequency to Wissahickon Station is increased, the railroad has a potential to take away riders who are presently riding on the 9 and 27 buses into center city, hence decreasing the need for those buses to waste diesel fuel while stuck in traffic on the Schuylkill Expressway. If Roxborough to Center City passengers could be transfered to rail, at least during peak times, that would improve the speed of the commute for those passengers, and would improve operating efficiency for SEPTA in that it doesn't have to pay for as many buses doing the effect of idling while on the Schuylkill. But for a plan like this to work, fares from CCP to Wissahickon must be reasonable, and peak headways must be very frequent.
While some may argue that this is not possible due to the lack of proximity of the station to the Transfer Center, I say that the buses should make a stop right near the station, if not in the station driveway itself, to encourage ridership. This may legnthen the trip times, but will make it more convenient for passengers.
What about extending the Ridge Spur subway line into a real line all along Ridge to East Falls and Wissahickon Transfer? the 9, 27, 32 etc. could become feeder routes. The population density in NW Philly (and Strawberry Mansion and Brewerytown) is definitely there. And if the SVM takes the Cynwyd routing at the expense of current R6, it would be even more warranted.
That's an interesting idea. Perhaps the extension could use one of the Chestnut Hill lines. I know there are no freight trains on the R8 in that direction.
Or did you have another route in mind, maybe further south?
Mark Michalovic
I meant an el or even a subway, completely new construction, along Ridge Avenue itself.
By the way, Isaac, what is the status of the studies that were being done for rail service to northeast Philly along the Roosevelt Boulevard corridor? I haven't heard any news in awhile, and the website of the Roosevelt Boulevard Transportation Investment Study (http://www.libertynet.org/netis/) hasn't been updated in ages. Is the study still being carried out? Is it just siderailed for the moment because of all of the resources being devoted to the Schuylkill Valley Metro planning and debate?
Just a question from a curious NE resident...
Mark Michalovic
Though the Roosevelt Boulevard study has progressed little, the options on the study that remain are a full legnth subway from Broad north of Erie to Woodhaven, a subway in the median of a highway from the end of the expressway to Woodhaven, a subway extension from Broad north of Erie up the New York Short Line (branches from the Fox Chase line south of Fox Chase), and a light rail line in the median of the Boulevard to Woodhaven. Possible el extension to Bustleton and the Boulevard for a line on the Boulevard.
Some notes: The subway within a highway's cost include the cost of the highway, but the ridership numbers reflect only the benefits of the rail. It costs slightly less than building only the subway. The highway would be 2 lanes each way, so in essence there would be one less traffic lane, except the benefits for cars would still be greater.
-The numbers for the light rail are much better than the numbers for the NYSL; more ridership for less costs. This may be in a tunnel for part of the way, but chances are only from Broad and Erie to 9th and the Boulevard. The light rail would be in the median, and would need to take up a lane of traffic north of Pennypack Circle because the median is not large enough to hold LRT up there
-Connections to the BSS at Fern Rock/Olney, or a possible subway to Franklin Mills is not being studied.
-In case you were wondering about the methods in which the trains would get out of Broad Street, the locals would be rerouted to the unused ramp north of Erie, then brought back down. The present local tracks would connect into the new subway, with one track going over or under (for southbound service). No completely new junction.
Thanks for the information, Isaac. It's too bad this is dragging so slowly. Which elected officials do I need to write to to voice opinions? Something is needed badly.
Actually, I'd be happy with just the short extension of the Market Frankford line to Bustleton, as that would bring it just a shrot walk from my house.
Mark Michalovic
The light rail option is a tenuous one at best. It would run in the median for the most part, then move to the left lane of the 'local' lanes further out (perhaps past Red Lion Rd). Patrons would have to cross six lanes of traffic to get to the stations. Physical constraints would force a maximum of 3-car trains, which would be woefully inadequate in mixed operation with Broad St express trains (now 5 cars long) where the two would share trackage. Light rail would also cross the many side streets at grade, and due to the 12-lane width of the Boulevard, these side streets are currently operating at unacceptable levels of service which means that congestion would greatly increase. (The transit side would argue that this would lead to more transit patrons, but many of the cars on the side streets are going crosstown, so their drivers couldn't realistically divert to the transit line.)
Right now on Roosevelt Blvd there are expressway-level traffic volumes and speeds on a virtually pedestrian-insurmountable 12-lane highway. The Blvd has the highest level of pedestrian accidents and fatalities in Phila. If light rail is built, even more pedestrians will be trying to cross at least half of it to get to the stations. For many reasons (including the fact that light rail won't be much faster - or just as slow - as the current bus service on the Blvd), the rapid transit extension in the median, along with a true express highway facility, seems to make the most sense. The downside is that finding the $2 billion to make it happen is very unlikely.
As a daily rider of the 27 I've been making the transfer to train suggestion for many years. It would make a lot of sense but some fare incentive must be there to make it effective. Expressway traffic is only getting worse - of course, so is 9 and 27 service as SEPTA 'improves' it by adding all articulated buses, then increasing headways using the 'more seats' logic. The service is a mess and only gets worse all the time.
Do the buses need to go to Wissahickon train station? Both 9 and 27 pass it, so they could easily turn back at Wissahickon TC loop. Are there that many transfers from routes ending at the Loop (38, R) to the trains? This number is growing, especially in the reverse direction, but could this be accommodated by these runs coming up Ridge Ave, entering the station parking lot, looping, and returning to lay over at the Loop?
I've also always thought that a true Wissahickon-Olney express run would be useful, but that's another suggestion that SEPTA doesn't want to hear. Just considering the number of Roxborough area students going to Girls High/Central (and I ride with them every morning to Center City, where they transfer to the subway to go way back up to Olney). For years SEPTA wouldn't consider a Frankford-Olney express, but then started FOX (now the 8) and this has been quite successful. SEPTA doesn't seem to like limited stop services - witness how the 1 has been watered down from a quick crosstown service to another slow operation.
You have to hand it to SEPTA also with the way it operates. With Allegheny Depot now all articulated, a lot of 9, 27, 60 and 65 after-hours and weekend trips are hauling lots of metal around. As you have noted, these would work much better on 17, 47, 52, and others. I see a 400-series run every morning which has a 60-foot, 66-seat bus with a 'crush' load of maybe 20 students. Meanwhile, my 27 is packed to the gills. Go figure.
As for the 27, there were some threads going on a few months ago that SEPTA was cutting back on route 27 trips. I believe this because on SEPTA's annual service changes document, the appendix listed the performance of all of the bus routes, and the fare recovery ratio of the 27 was lower than acceptable. It was the only route of its size to have that distinction (all other routes were much smaller), so service cuts would be to increase performance. Since an R6 transfer is not an option for most, running the buses express to Broad and Erie for a BSS transfer seems like a good plan during periods of high expressway traffic. And if SEPTA has any money left, they could run some buses all the way up to Olney, even if is just a couple of 400 series routes. I think the only extra service that CHS and GHS students get is a couple extra trips on the 8, whereas other, smaller schools, where less people take transit get their own routes.
Part of the problem with 27's performance is the add-on of the Plymouth Meeting trips. These invariably run with small loads and almost always disrupt the schedule. Also, there are not many 'linked' trips on 27, since there are few transfer possibilities (unusual on the SEPTA system).
My suggestion to SEPTA before the Mall extension was to terminate 27 in Andorra, as its A-Upper Henry predecessor did, and extend a Frontier line (possible 97) down Ridge Pike/Ave to Summit Loop to serve that market. Even 27 terminating in Barren Hill connects to L to the Mall anyway (and 97 as it currently operates would not, but it could be adjusted slightly as it has been to serve the Metroplex). I have also advocated for a Roxborough to Broad St Subway connection, given that this part of the world is the only section of Philadelphia without bus service connecting to a rapid transit line (I don't count 65 given its short routing in Roxborough).
My preference for a subway connection would be a route from Summit Loop back toward Cathedral Road/Port Royal Ave, then over to Henry Ave to Queen Lane, Fox, Blvd Expressway to Broad St (Hunting Park Station, to take some load off Erie). This would serve Andorra Shopping Center, Saul High, and a segment of Henry between Dupont and Roxborough Ave that has never had transit service.
Of course, once upon a time (before me), the Z bus served some of this routing, coming from Erie and going to Manayunk (the upper end still exists as the 35).
Also, as far as service reduction on 27, SEPTA isn't paying too much attention to the NW. Both 9 and 27 have been cut back considerably, but there are still crowded vehicles. I have heard the 'more seats' argument but the additional seats don't mean much when they can't arrive on schedule.
My PM commute, which was fairly painless until September of last year, is much worse now since SEPTA changed the schedule. Mainly due to prodding by some of us riders, SEPTA introduced a run on 27 that left 15th & Kennedy at 5:06 every evening. It started there, a pull-out directly from Allegheny Depot, thus it was not subject to inbound Expressway or Broad St delays. It was great, especially since it was always on time and often picked up crowds left waiting when earlier runs didn't arrive on time (which happened at least 2-3 times a week). The problem was that the late trips would often catch up and follow 3-4 minutes behind this run and SEPTA saw a crowded bus followed by a not-as-crowded one. The 'bean counters' went to work and 'improved' service by removing this one run. Now what do you think happens when there are delays? You guessed it - everyone's delayed, buses run overcrowded, there are more passed-up (and pissed-off) riders - SEPTA sure is serious about change.
Why Hunting Park? It doesn't seem like Erie is too crowded to me, and compared to Olney, is underutilized for an express station.
I'm thinking Hunting Park for two reasons - one, it's easier to negotiate on the surface and less crowded than Erie for buses (the buses could come off the Blvd Extension easily, loop around Broad, Hunting Park and 15th, back to the Blvd Extension on-ramp southbound) and it would bring some vitality and use to Hunting Park station. Of course, many riders would be transferring from local to express at Erie, but just as many would be going north on the subway to Central, Girls, LaSalle U, etc.
Erie could work but I think the bus trip would be longer since it would involve operation on Erie, which is slower than the Blvd Extension. Also, given SEPTA's track record, the bus could start out as a limited-stop or non-stop run, but sooner or later the pressure would be there to have stops made along Erie. Witness the 1 fiasco - it was once a quick operation and made the trip from Wissahickon Loop to the Northeast as comparable to driving as possible. After some complaints, etc, the 1 now makes almost all regular stops, with the exception of a stretch between Broad St and Oxford Circle.
I've seen the same dumb thing when the Schuylkill ties up and the express buses go the local route. The dopey operators feel compelled to make stops on 33rd St, Ridge Ave, etc even though there is no regular route that covers both streets. Most people who get picked up don't really want the 9 or 27 anyway and end up more confused, opting off well before the regular stop territory begins.
I have a suggestion; run the articulateds on the 124 and 125 King Of Prussia routes. They are always crowded and i could never get a seat whenever I venture to the mall. Until (maybe I'm using the wrong word) SEPTA starts Light rail service to reading with a stop at K Of P, then the artics should be implemented. More on this subject in Bus Talk.
That's what I always thought too, but then I realized that the streets those buses operate on are really narrow. I mean, it's hard to believe how they get out of Gulph Mills. That's why they created route 123, to help with the overcrowding. However, they should also extend the route 100 to K of P like planned before. That woudl really help, since so many people transfer at gulph to those buses. But seriously, those bus routes are seriously crowded.
This post is just to inform everyone about a new 'room' at High St./Bklyn Br. station. At the end of the station (near the underwater tunnels) a new room was constructed. Not that this is really important, but just thought i'd let people know.
Considering it's my namesake I think I know about it... It's just a storage room for garbage and stuff. They have also recently upgraded the lighting system dramatically and I think they may be shutting down yet another northbound staircase.
-Harry
It steals platform space, eroding away the possibility of a 660ft. consist. DENYING the riding public a quick and easy 10% increase of volume without affecting TPH. Think how the 63rd connector could be simplified if 10% 0f the TPH could be reduced, yet Volume maintained!
Trains could be merged easier, and that 10% cusion be utilized in the future if needed.
avid
Several of the rooms they've added to the Queens IND allow for 1.5' platform space, in theory a 660' consist could be used at those stations and passengers exiting from the doors adjacent could hug the wall as must be done on PATH. Mayhaps they did the same here?
after riding both models from both manufacturers and evaluating them, i like both models equally. however, the Kawasaki model seems not well built. from the past stock i have been riding (7261-7270,7241-7250&7221-7230?)their bodies felt poorly built and even sounded like it. when riding everytime running down the rails i hear, squeaks, rattles and buzzing. the train doesn't pull off so smoothly, the truck makes tons of noise and harsh haults when stopping the whole car shakes when the train stops, the trucks ride choppy at times and the traction motors protrude whith their whining sounds which gets to you after a while.it was like riding a redbird. i got on a R-62A and the body didn't make so much noise. even the female voice has a raspy lifeless tone. on the bombardier model (6301-6310,6311-6320,6325-6336,6415-6425 excuse me for i can't remember some numbers)i sat and observe no squeaks, rattles or vibrations at all except for the truck hitting the car body at high speeds and sometimes when pulling off. the ac motors do not come through. the anouncements are much friendlier from the female tone of voice. why do the R-142A's feel unrefined? is that normal? if you don't know what i'm talking about go ride both models. compare the two and you will see what i mean. its almost like driving in a new car and you notice all these funny noises and reactions.
I haven't kept up with this much lately, but months ago most of what was written here about the R142 type subway trains said that the quality of the Kawaski units compared to the Bombardier ones was much better.
Did Bombardier get better, or did Kawaski get worse? Or both?
i think the kawasaki got worse. as i have been following up with them, some new kawasaki's went out of service after a few miles in service, while bombardier have never been called out of service. somethings wrong here
I agree with you. I rode 7221-7230 on Sun and I experienced the same things, especially the shaking and rattling. Hopefully, the problems will be notice and fixed.
Train#1995Mike
i hope so too.
what??? the r-142s ( ready for scrap ) ARE ALREADY FALLING APART ??!
um........no. it just doesn't feel built right. as far as we have heard, none of them lost pieces
um........no.R-142A it just doesn't feel built right. as far as i have heard, none of them lost pieces yet
Ever drive a new car? You get the same thing for the first 400-700 miles.
-Hank
but most cars don't do those weird things. ah well things aren't perfect. but i now do look at the kawasaki R-142A with a funny eye. its drawing me to like the bombardier more than it
I noticed that also, some R-142A's ride worse than others, I've rode the R-142 one time to me it rode quieter than some of the R-142A's that I have ridden on.I cant pass a judgement yet, I've only ridden the R-142 once.
I'll always like Kawasaki better than bombadier. By the way I was on the S/B R-142 today (1310 WP) and it went out of service at 42nd Street. The conductor said it was because of problems in Brooklyn and the train would head back north. But all the trains behind it went to Brooklyn. Is this the way they cover up when the trains go out of service. The announcements were off key the entire trip, sometimes it announced the stop, sometimes it didn't and at 125th Street, it announced that it was at 116 Street.
The conductor said it was because of problems in Brooklyn and the train would head back north. But all the trains behind it went to Brooklyn. Is this the way they cover up when the trains go out of service.
Conductors just say things to keep the passengers quiet. I've been up front and the train has stopped to pick up employees, or by a work crew and the first thing that the conductor says is "We are stopped at a red signal due to congestion ahead".
And any conductor here will tell you, they fake it since they often step out of the cab and have to look at the faces in the car ... knowing that they're going to have to face (and perform for) the crowd in their car since they can't leave and go to another car after making an ass of themselves (does anyone here think about the poor sap in the middle who has to FACE the riding public wearing that stupid blue "kick me!" suit? "Uh ... yeah ... we're experiencing a slight delay because a dog has died on the tracks. We should be moving shortly, there's another train right behind this one, yeah, that's the ticket."
(My name is Kevin and I'm Catholic - the confessional is now open)
I had a buddy who lived next door who was a condustor on the D train out of 205th. At the time, I was a newscaster/commentator for WBAI, 99.5, listener sponsored radio in NY" and also did radio on WHBI 105.9 and vacation relief on WNEW-FM. My buddy had a squeaky kinda voice and was working the 32's at the time. He knew I was a train nut and had stolen a redbird back in 1964. The papers in NYC covered it, I abandoned it (along with three friends) at the emergency stairs just before 191 street with Police pursuit. I was never caught. Dumbass motorman dropped his bag of works on 242 and we snatched them. But that's another story for close friends. Needless to say, I never sat on a train, it was front car window all the way.
Anyway, my buddy was shy about the PA on the 32's, and he was alsways assigned to the same train, day after day after day. Since we knew each other well, I'd join him and do the PA for him all the way down to 34/6 where I got off for work. Had a blast at it while he giggled over some of the amazing "commentary" I would do, since I knew the line and also had a sick sense of humor as some of you may have noticed here. I got his arse in trouble a few times but the "ta" was desperate at the time since the "wave of retirements" had started on the IND and "discipline" was a joke. You'd get a "letter" in your "file" which was removed if you got too many of them. I literally did skits on the PA and I could hear the car roaring to some of them.
My buddy convinced me to take the "conductor" exam and said that anyone who even showed up for the test was hired. Damn if it wasn't TRUE! Heh. After the "trainers" got a taste of my style, I was relegated to R1/9 duty ... in case anyone here ever wondered how "fresh meat" would end up on the pre-war cars as all those shiny new cars were coming on the railroad ... well, there's your answer. The "wiseass detectors" were ringing from Coney to Mosholu.
But as a part of my punishment, I fell in love with the IND stock. They're still my sweeties and I miss them dearly. R4's would NEVER let you down even if the footgrips would drop off the car without warning, leaving you hanging from the gates. Still love my hunnies and would give ANYTHING to step between the gates once again. Alas, *ALL* of the museums only have ONE ... and thus, there's no "assuming the position" as I always enjoyed. Is there ANYWHERE where I can get my pants between two R1/9's any more? My itchy fingers just GOTTA get in there underneath and give both sides a diddle ... anyone still remember what I mean by that phrase?
Well, Seashore has R-4 #800 and R-7A #1440, both of which are normally coupled together and permit "assuming the position".
The Transit Museum has R-1 #100, R-4 #484, and the R-10 imposter, R-7A #1575 all coupled together. At one time, you could assume the position, and I have a photo of myself doing just that, but unfortunately due to an incident a few years back, you can't do that anymore. The storm doors are kept locked between all cars now. Bummer.
I can see that museums would be mighty nervous about folks climbing out on the iron if they didn't know how to with exactly where the grabirons are as second nature - it's a royal pain in the butt having to fish someone out from between cars, especially if they're on the "wrong side" with respect to the 50 pound rail and wood slat. But for a car monkey like me that must have done that a couple thousand times, doing that once again would be a hoot. It's a lot easier to be sure footed when the cars aren't moving. I had to do it at a time when there were so many things not working, the slack smacks could knock you off the foot decks under the best of circumstances. I miss those puppies.
You know what my first words were when I climbed up on those step plates for the first time? "I always wanted to do this." There's a story behind the picture taking. I went down there with my brother-in-law in July of 1995, a day when it was 100-plus outdoors. Since I didn't have a conductor's uniform, I wore my Mets jacket and cap. By the time we were finished, my jacket was soaked - I was dying.
I did get to work the doors on Shoreline's R-9 1689 in 1980. Both with the car standing still and rolling down the mainline. It was a bit of a challenge to stand on one step plate and hold on to the trigger box at the same time. Now I need to get up to Seashore someday.
Yeah, it isn't exactly practical to do with just one car. That's the disappointment. Aside from coupling and connecting issues, you could probably fake it with a standard or a triplex in tow but the backlash of starting and stopping would probably throw you right off the plates. I'll never forget the first time I was out there at Neck Road and the train went into emergency with me out there, about to step down and put the gate back in place. Damn near went under a wheel.
No fun though with just one car.
Yeah, one false move on those step plates and you're a goner. It wouldn't have been so bad if you didn't have to stay up there for three car lengths while the train was leaving a station. Did you ever click the trigger caps before stepping down as the train was gathering speed? I used to see conductors do that.
Of course ... it wasn't like the doors were going to fly open with the interlocked air system. Yeah, the three car rule was a minimum by the way ... I'd usually wait until I saw tunnel wall with the exception of leaving 59th southbound onto the 53rd street cutover. By the time I was on the railroad, there were door problems on a lot of them and the guard lights were hard to see through all the steel dust.
i can understand your point. i will be riding them again today to do another evaluation.
Wasn't 43 years ago tomorrow that service was extended to Mott Ave in Far Rockaway?
That should read..
Wasn't it 43 years ago tomorrow...
Do you mean from Wavecrest to Mott Ave. Rar Rockaway.
avid
Yes! Service to Wavecrest and Rockaway Park started about 18 months earlier.
Karl: Everytime I see 1958 listed or mentioned I get a bad chill. I hated that year. I call it the "Year of the Onion", my most hated food. That year I graduated from high school, but I got fat that year, I sat on the bench my senior year in high school, I went to jr college and almost flunked out, and got fired from one job. I hated that year so much I refused to go to my 10th, 20th, 25th, or 30th reunions. I broke down on the 35th, but when someone at the party asked me about what I remembered about that year, I went into a long diatribe. I think the poor lady was very sorry she asked me.
If you had stayed in the city you would never had to worry about reunions. NY high schools never had reunions, at least my school apparently didn't,
1958 was a pretty good year for me. Even though I had a license for six years, I didn't get my first car until 1958. It was a used '56 Chevy 2-door hardtop.
I'd have a collectible if I still had that!
Was that the one with the gas tank filler spout in or under one of the read tail light units?
avid
The left rear tail light opened down to access the gas tank. You turned a piece of chrome trim from vertical to horizontal to release and lower the light. It was on a hinge. The gas cap was behind the tail light inside the fender.
With a smallblock V8, perhaps?
Thankfully, it was indeed a V8!
I've toyed with the idea of picking up a '56 Chevy Bel Air someday, if for no other reason than because I was born that year. My father had a '56 Pontiac on order, but canceled it after rupturing a disk in his back. He wound up keeping his '53 Chieftain until we left South Bend.
Karl: Glad someone looked back at that year with fondness. Now 1956, that was another story. That was one of my favorite years. I was some ballplayer that year. Good to know someone on this site is older than my 60 years. Have a great day.
1958 wasn't such a great year from an economy standpoint. IIRC, there was a recession that year. Not to mention the last streetcar run in Chicago on June 21 of that year. OTOH, A. C. Gilbert was putting out American Flyer sets with extra long freight trains, some of which had nine cars and even one with 13! It proved to be their last hurrah before their big downward spiral.
As I still say to anyone who will hear me, 1958 WAS A REAL ROTTEN YEAR!!!!!
There's the bright side: at least the Sea Beach express was alive and well that year. We won't talk about the Dodgers playing in L. A.
When the Dodgers announced in late 1957 they were coming to Los Angeles I was estatic. I had just started my senior year and was looking forward to that and the Bums following me out to California just three full seasons after I left. Well, the senior year was a disaster, grades, baseball, socially, my lousy job, and, worst of all the Dodgers sucked and for some reason I never took to that LA on their caps. Instead of being happy, it was a bummer all around. The Sea Beach? Well, I suppose that is a piece of good news from that year.
And speaking of your favorite line, there is a photo of Triplex unit 6019, one of the three survivors, in the car section in which it is signed up as a 4 at Bay Parkway.
A real work of art, eh? Thanks for the info. I think I remember seeing that picture.
And 30 years after that, I bought my Jeep. 13 years and 415,000 miles later, it's still rolling along.
Yes, the Mott Avenue-Far Rockaway terminal was opened on Thursday, January 16, 1958, when on that date IND Rockaway service was extended from Beach 25th Street-Wavecrest to the new station. By the way, this particular station is probably the easternmost point anywhere on the NYC Transit System.
A outfit known as Railroad Avenue Enterprises has 8x10 black and white prints for sale of that particular location that were originally snapshot two days later with four-car R-10's at that station (one of them as a great 3/4 view taken at the east end of the platform under their catalog #PN-10715). For more information in obtaining these and other related pictures, please write to them with a SASE to: Railroad Avenue Enterprises, PO Box 114, Flanders, NJ 07836-0114 (or check their ads in a few railfan hobby magazines).
-William A. Padron
Yes. That is the subway's Easternmost station, and the only place where it comes anywhere near that close to the Nassau line.
Andrew :)
I reposted this from NYC.transit
Subject: Rust buckets, Rocker express, Restoration needed quickly
From: "Stormy" bolognafam@worldnet.att.net
Date: 1/13/01 5:43 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:
A lament to the redbirds
All the other IRT red bird lines will get new trains like the R 142 over the
next few years, but the #7 line gets stuck with the aging redbirds from
these other lines. The new trains are technologically advanced over the
redbirds (door chimes, automated announcements, bright lighting, and
interactive maps. This phase out process will likely place the other rust
buckets from the subway system on the Flushing line at the cost of new
equipment on the 2,4,5,6 lines. As a result (the #7 line) will have a major
disadvantage over the other restored IRT lines.
The redbirds should have this place as their next stop, the ocean.
We have seen enough of these red trains for more than enough years. Those
new R 142 trains replacing the rust buckets are a nice piece of equipment
for the NYC subway system. They are even nicer looking than the current LIRR
fleet (M-1 and M-3's).
Why do people have an obsession with these redbirds. They are not beautiful
to look at and are dingy looking inside. A young kid was even crying on a
redbird saying, I don't like this train, those red doors are ugly. Red can
be a scary color to a young child.
May the redbirds rust in pieces in the Atlantic by the time 2005 comes
around.
After the R-142/A contracts are delivered, another contract (R-#?) is reported to spell the end of all remaining Redbirds.
Bill Newkirk
lasted longer than your replacements will !!!
I do not know much about the Redbirds or NY Transit. I posted it here to see what others knew about it
First railfan to ride the entire DC Metro
You beat me to it!
I am planning to do it also some time in the next month, on a Saturday or Sunday, starting in Vienna
I meant DuPont Circle posted right before I was going to.
Do it on Presidents Day. Or even better, a regular weekday. You might eclipse the record.
I was going to do it Saturday but decided 8 hours on the Metro was not worth it.
My problem is that I only get weekends off, and only the Major Holidays. So I have to to it on a Saturday
Well, he's not the first... I've done the entire DC Metro (not including the newest stations that just opened), and I did it in just over six hours total time... due to family issues (translation: my daughter would have wrung my neck) it was split over two days... there should be posts here from last January or February documenting it, as I reported on my ride then. And I seriously doubt that I'm the first either... certainly I'm not so brazen as to make such a claim without the facts to back it up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Many others, including myself, have done the entire system *SANS GREEN LINE EXTENSION* in one day. The claim "entire system" results from his inclusion of the Branch Ave extension; he rode the entire 103-mile system in one day, not the 98-mile incomplete system.
Not a big feat since he did it the day after the stations opened, but you see why they can say that. Semantics, semantics. :)
Chris
As frequent SubTalkers know, I am generally a big supporter of the Boston MBTA - its service and customer service. But there are problems, of course. The Boston Globe's "Starts and Stops" commuter column (published each Monday) outlines some of the issues this week.
Here's the link. I must say, I agree with many of the observations.
Let me add one more minor inconvenience to that list. There is a bench at Mattapan Station which is unuseable whenever it rains. The roof leaks like a sieve directly above it and it is wet for over a day after a storm ends as accumulated water overhead continues to drip. This morning it was encased in ice! It has been like that for at least five months!
Overall I am thankful for the T since I am carless when in Boston, parts of the system are quite nostolgic, and it does get me where I wanna go...eventually. But of course, there are problems with the system, and this article points out many of them. But really, since the fare has increased, that should really add pressure to the T to correct problems. -Nick
Nick,
The fare increase really has nothing to do with correcting many of the problems from the Globe article. The fare increase was part of the new budget process that will keep the status-quo. The T was in a much better financial shape to address problems generated from public opinion before Forward Funding. Now, many problems or interests from the public must find funding outside the T's normal and planned avenues. Or if enough pressure (either public or political) is applied, funding is stolen from somewhere else, like Gerry's bench at Mattapan.
What is forward funding?
It is a P C way of saying less funding.
Forward Funding is name of the budget process that the T is now using. The T submits a budget, and when approved, is the amount of money the T has to work with from the State.
Previously, the T had a budget, and if things came up, had the option of submiting a supplimentary budget at the end of the year. The State generally passed it without much problem. It allowed pols to get their pet T projects and helped in cases of emergencies. Kind of like snow plowing budgets in states and cities, the streets still get plowed even though the funds are gone.
So it seems like the T should have tried to correct more problems before the increase, because now there is more pressure to get them done, since commuters are paying the price in more ways then one. -Nick
The T, prior to forward funding, was still limited as to what the legislature would approve. That's why I mentioned political or public issues. They just couldn't go do what ever they wanted.
Let's look at the first six items on the complaint list and see what can be fixed.
*David, who works in Boston, says for the last two to three weeks the No. 66 bus has been running 20 to 40 minutes late going from Dudley to Harvard Square. ''Despite the recent fair [sic!] hikes, the T's level of service has deteriorated to a point that truly is unacceptable.''*
The bus is late in its running time! He isn't waiting 20 - 40 minutes, it's taking longer to get there. We would have to ban vehicle traffic on this route to correct this.
*Craig of Stoneham says, ''One more station to add to the list of hwexjcv PA systems: Oak Grove. And speaking of Oak Grove ... the center of the exposed platform never seems to be scraped or sanded, so you have to stand within a few feet of the yellow line.''*
The PA problem is system wide. My rough estimate is $2.5 million. I used to do PA work.
The condition of the center of the platform is something that can be and should be fixed easily. Maybe custodial staff there called in sick that day and coverage hadn't arrived. If it's a constant problem, personnel need to be redeployed.
*Kevin from Mansfield, who rides the Attleboro/Providence train, writes, ''Over the past few weeks, the trains have been significantly late, up to 30 minutes, with no announcements as to either delays or their lengths.''*
The interlocking plant at Canton Jct has been problematic since it was installed a few weeks ago. The announcement issue is a valid point.
*Mary of Providence recently bought two weekly visitor passes over the Web for $22 each, because she's coming to Boston for the US Figure Skating Championships. ''I subsequently saw the new weekly combo pass mentioned in the Globe. It's only $12.50. That doesn't seem like a very nice way to treat our out-of-town guests. I called the T to point this out, but the woman with whom I spoke didn't have any insight on the world beyond her desk.''*
The weekly combo pass was a politicallly driven response to lower income and the fare increase. It has more restrictions than the 7 day visitors pass. One of those restrictions state that this Providence woman would have to buy it in person at certain stations, most of which are in tough areas. It would limit her weekend travel as it was a Sunday to Saturday pass. The pass will not be offered online as its target customer does not have access to the web, or for that matter, a credit card.
*Carl told us, ''The 6:15 p.m. train to Framingham has been running 10 to 15 minutes behind schedule lately, as the T decided to add service at Yawkey without rescheduling the trains. Isn't someone supposed to anticipate these conflicts? Our conductor didn't know which other trains were stopping at Yawkey.''*
The new Yawkey stop didn't come out of Commuter rail operations or MBTA management. This came from higher up and was politically motivated without regard for schedule delays.
*Art of Natick, on the same subject, wrote, ''Why did the MBTA add a stop if it conflicted with an inbound train ... delays of 10-15 minutes each night? Couldn't this wait until proper scheduling could be done? Does anyone care?''*
As above.
*Candace said, ''Hello, I was advised that you are the person I should bring my concern to regarding MBTA bus drivers who use cell phones while driving the bus. I first experienced this at the end of the summer. I have since reported two more incidents.''*
She should be calling the T's customer complaint line. She should have the bus number or the route, the correct time and the location of the incident. The T sent out a special order on this issue and will follow up. Don't expect someone will get punshised because you happen to see them doing something wrong. The phone call will alert officials that there may be a problem to keep an eye on. Seeing 3 drivers using cell phones over a period of 5 months is not really a major problem, but it's still a potentially dangerous situation.
Rich
Thank you, Rich...I understand the situation better now. -Nick
*Candace said, ''Hello, I was advised that you are the person I should bring my concern to regarding MBTA bus drivers who use cell phones while driving the bus. I first experienced this at the end of the summer. I have since reported two more incidents.''*
They might have been using the cell phones for official MTBA communications. I know that in the UK train drivers are banned from using the radio except under emergency conditions so they communicate with the signalman and the head office via call phones.
*They might have been using the cell phones for official MTBA communications. I know that in the UK train drivers are banned from using the radio except under emergency conditions so they communicate with the signalman and the head office via call phones. *
All T buses have radios. Buses with defective radios are taken out of service. An employee reporting a bad radio should pull over, stop the bus and make his call either from his cell phone or a pay phone.
The BMTman & I would have liked to have joined the group Sunday, but couldn't ... so we did a little railfanning Monday with my grandson in toe.
Our day began on LI at 7 AM, after breakfest we headed for Canarsie where we boarded a L & only took it to Livonia/Junius where we did a non free transfer. The walkway provides a good view of the Linden track assembly yard, Bayridge freight line (we saw a High Railer), and the connection from L & 3 to it. Not recomended if you are alone or after sunset ... we didn't have a problem though.
The #3 we got had a Railfan window which we enjoyed until Atlantic Ave. Thought we might be joined by several others. After waiting for a few trains to go by in the hopes of getting a R-142 we walked to Pacific Street.
Boarded a B hopping for a Express up Central Park West, but still had a very nice local ride with a operator who was willing to talk to us thru a crack in the door. Took it all the way to the end at 145 St. I guess we were on a R-40, as it wasn't a Hippo.
Caught a A to get us to 168th. Rode the elevator down a couple of stories to the 1/9. The overpass provided some nice photo ops.
Rode the 1/9 all the way to 242nd Street: saw IND yard at 207th; IRT elevated yard at 242nd (why is the yard elevated ?); did some MetroCard swapping with a friend who met us there. As we were waiting for the signal to enter 242nd my grandson & the operator were playing peek-a-boo ... we waved goodbye to him as we left.
Rode 1/9 down to 96th Street: saw underground yard between 137th & 145th; got off at 125th & had my grandson look scared in a photo for his mom; got off again at 110th to lunch at Tom's Resturant, then a walk down the block to St. John the Unfinished. At 96th saw the tower from the platform & waited in hopes of a R-142 ... saw one go uptown :-(
Settled for a #2 Red Bird & a nice ride to 34th where we waited for a couple of more trains. The BMTman had to go, but I decided to wait a little longer. The second train was a R-142 so took it to Atlantic Ave.
Changed to the LIRR and after a "Change at Jamaica" boarded our final train for home. The ladies of the house were all surprised that we made it back before dark.
Mr t__:^)
Sounds Kewl, I got home from work 4am Monday so I couldn't make it. I'm still looking for a R142 ride >G
[I guess we were on a R-40, as it wasn't a Hippo.]
Thurston, we WERE on a Hippo. It was a Kawasaki R-68, but a Hippo nonetheless. Maybe you forgot because the T/O full-width cab door slid aside inside of hinge-opened.
You won't find any R-40's on the B Line anyhow.
BMTman
>>>You won't find any R-40's on the B Line anyhow<<<
Yes, you will on the weekends, but they are scarce.
See what happens when you are enjoying yourself ... swallowed by a beast and loving it. She even hit 30 MPH, I could of swore they couldn't do that !
Seriously it was the most pleasent ride in a Hippo that I've ever had.
Mr t__:^)
I was WONDERING about that. I've grown to love HIPPOS . . . Ride 'em every day.
Peace,
ANDEE
Today's edition of Salon.com has a rather nice plug for Kevin Walsh and Forgotten-ny in an article about the practice of "infiltration" or "urban exploration." Unfortunately, other parts of the article suffer from the dreaded Mole People Syndrome, referring to the "miles of abandoned subway tunnels" under New York. Oh well ...
That's a rip-off of a very similar article in Details magazine about 6 months ago.
There's the Lexington Ave. line, which has narrow and shorter trains and has some of the worst overcrowding. To add insult to injury, half of that line can accomodate wider trains, but it's handicapped by the half that can't. To further add insult to injury, from what I read, CPW is under-utilized and they are sitting pretty with nice wide cars.
Even more irony. Transit systems like BART and MARTA have stations and trains that can handle several times more people than what they actually do. It would seem logical for NYCT to trade stations and trains with BART and MARTA because NYCT stations are enough to handle the crowds those two systems have.
If you'll excuse me, my private MARTA car is waiting on me (greatly exaggerating).
You wanna see overcrowding? Get on a south-bound 2 train in the Bronx during the AM rush hour. These trains come every 9 and a half hours during rush hour. It is not uncommon to see people riding on the roof.
Why in the hell doesn't the TA put more 2's on the line? I have noticed that, unfortunatly, minority neighborhoods get terrible service. I think the TA is just a little bit racist. I think people should start complaining. I'd be pround to march in a rally outside TA headquarters. Certain lines really have poor service. I don't know if it's neighborhoods, track configurations or what.
Most people say the #7 receives good service, despite it running through minority neighborhoods. And #2 line is much longer so one mishap somewhere along the line can cause long delays elsewhere. Also the way the #2 line is, with all those local stops in the Bronx the route seem to want to divert riders away from the Lexington Ave line to ease the 'overcrowding' on the East Side.
Why in the hell doesn't the TA put more 2's on the line?
Two reasons:
1 There are no other trains to put there.
2 Even if there were more trains, the delays at E.180 St and 3rd Ave from 5 trains merging would bring the whole thing to a halt.
Remember, last spring, they tried to make it better, but the people along the line said NO. Now, you're all stuck with it
Well said. I don't doubt there's no more track capacity anyway, or little. The other side of the coin is how many parts of the city served by rail transit still have a "white" [if you want to count white hispanics out] majority? Most white folks that had the opportunity moved out of those areas and now have lawns, fences and their own house..others to the sunbelt. Not to say there aren't exceptions and I'm thinking Bronx, then again think of the dense Bronx population similar to Manhattan and there just aren't that many rail lines considering...
The 2 line by far is the most used Irt line in the Bronx But for some strange reason alot of service starts at E180 or 96 st skipping where people need more service.
There is no service on the 2 that starts at either 96 St or E.180. All Bronx 2 trains start at either 241 st or 238 St. Trains starting out of E.180 are 5 trains.
That my friend is how NY City does things. The money [bonds] was voted in twice for a 2nd ave subway and other additions and 50 years later still isn't there.
Two east side els were demolished..admittedly the two of them would probably equal for capacity a 4 track ..lets say IND or BMT line; the 3rd ave. was kept after the major demolition "until a 2nd ave subway could be built"; well they killed 3rd Ave. in 1955, to a degree by service reductions that caused inconvenienced customers to abandon the line; Meantime the east side suffers with only one rail line, as fate would have it doomed to the small cars.
How long ago was the money voted for the new line? 1951 and 1967 IIRC, maybe another issue was voted in. Meantime other cities build new or addtional lines, or systems from scratch. With the exception of the Rockaways NYCity has less rail line than it did in early 1955.
Amtrak's Boss Struggles to Get
The Passenger Railroad on Track
By DANIEL MACHALABA
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
BALTIMORE -- Everywhere he goes, George Warrington sees two Amtraks. But
one of them is mainly in his dreams.
The Amtrak he envisions is found at Baltimore's Pennsylvania Station.
There, he reviews drawings for turning the upper floors into a 70-room
hotel. Boosted by Amtrak's new high-speed Acela Express service, Mr.
Warrington expects stations like this to be centers of development as his
trains whisk passengers between the cities of North America.
The other Amtrak is a few miles away on a stretch of track plagued by
drainage problems. To keep the rail bed from turning to mud, track crews
perform maintenance 10 times more often than normal. "It's a bad joke,"
says Mr. Warrington, who took over as president and chief executive two
years ago. "It's the fastest and busiest rail corridor in the nation, and
here we are talking about mud when we ought to be talking about
mobility."
At a time of chaos for air travelers and congestion on highways, this
should be Amtrak's moment in the sun. Yet all too often, the nation's
passenger-rail service remains bogged down by crumbling infrastructure,
discontented employees, unhappy passengers -- and Americans' longtime
ambivalence toward rail travel.
In a scramble to get the government-controlled enterprise on track, Mr.
Warrington has launched high-speed trains, entered into partnerships with
states and other transportation companies and tried to instill a can-do,
entrepreneurial attitude. At least partly due to these efforts, passenger
volumes have increased about 15% in the past three years. Revenue has
reached record levels.
But time is running short: Because of a 1997 edict from Congress, Amtrak
must operate without federal operating subsidies by 2003, or face
restructuring or liquidation. Last year, according to Amtrak, such
subsidies ran about $184 million.
Subordinates say Mr. Warrington has become obsessed with making Amtrak
commercially viable. Talking to executives at Amtrak headquarters in
Washington, Mr. Warrington is angry that Amtrak employees in San Diego lack
the proper tools. "These guys have to walk three f---ing miles to get
simple bolts," he says.
Tall and intense, with a goatee and slicked-back hair, the 48-year-old
rail executive spent 10 years reviving New Jersey's network of commuter
trains. He joined Amtrak in 1994 as head of its Northeast Corridor, and
soon began revamping the Metroliner, which provides higher-speed, premium
service between New York and Washington. He redecorated cars, upgraded
menus, installed computer outlets and added cars on popular runs. At the
same time, he cut Metroliner trips that had little chance of making money,
such as one that stopped in New Haven, Conn. The Metroliners went from
losing money to covering their costs and a portion of Amtrak's overhead.
Most other Amtrak services continue to lose money.
To succeed at Amtrak, Mr. Warrington must overcome a trainload of
problems. Formed in 1971 because railroad companies wanted to exit from the
money-losing passenger-train business, Amtrak inherited old trains and
dilapidated stations. Since then, Amtrak -- whose voting stock is held by
the U.S. Secretary of Transportation -- has muddled from funding crisis to
funding crisis. Congress, which sets aside money each year for Amtrak,
often debates whether the U.S. should be in the intercity passenger-train
business at all.
A Skeletal System
"Amtrak was given the responsibility for saving the American passenger
train, but it was never given nearly the resources" it needs, says James
Coston, a Chicago attorney and member of the Amtrak Reform Council, which
monitors Amtrak's performance.
Mr. Warrington complains that trains in the U.S. don't get the same
public support they get in Europe and Japan. For instance, other countries
keep the gas tax high on motor vehicles and adopt regulations to discourage
short-haul flights so more people ride trains.
Outside of the Boston-New York-Washington route and a few other busy
corridors, Amtrak remains a skeletal system of mostly slow trains with a
single daily run in each direction. Its trains miss some of the nation's
largest cities and most-traveled routes, including Columbus, Ohio, and
Nashville, Tenn. All together, they carry less than a half percent of the
nation's intercity travelers.
All of these problems have held back Amtrak from becoming a solution to
the nation's increasingly crowded air and road systems, much to the chagrin
of many states and communities.
"The debate over whether Amtrak should or shouldn't survive is
nonsense," says Joe Boardman, transportation commissioner of New York
state. "What really needs to be debated is how we'll provide the right rail
service at the right time."
Amtrak's Northeast Corridor alone needs more than $10 billion in new
tracks, bridges, signals, electrification systems and drainage
improvements. "We've become the storm drain for the neighborhood," says
Alison Conway-Smith, Amtrak's chief engineer. Inside leaky rail tunnels in
Baltimore, Amtrak workers remove icicles in winter by raking the walls and
ceiling with T-shaped ice sticks. Large icicles could short out the
overhead wires that feed electricity to the trains.
Earth-Tone Blues
On Amtrak's Crescent train to Atlanta, Mr. Warrington walks through a
lounge car thick with tobacco smoke, because Amtrak hasn't installed
exhaust fans. In the dining car, "the lighting is much too harsh, and earth
tones went out 25 years ago," he says. Atlanta's tiny Amtrak depot, far
from downtown, "reflects lack of good planning and investment," he
says.
But there are signs of progress. Mr. Warrington has started a
frequent-traveler program, crew training and customer-satisfaction
guarantees. Train crews now attend a course called "Service Success." Some
lessons: greet "guests" with a smile and an open hand; show interest by
leaning toward passengers; and say "good evening, tickets please" instead
of "tickets, tickets."
Some Amtrak innovations are sure signs that problems remain. In Chicago,
Amtrak is setting up a "service recovery lounge" for passengers of delayed
trains.
James Drummond, an Amtrak product-line manager in New York, notes that
Amtrak employees on all trains have been "empowered" to give away a snack,
beverage or sandwich -- "Whatever it takes to make sure a guest has a smile
on his face, even if it's an unfortunate trip." Passengers who still aren't
satisfied can get full credit toward future Amtrak travel. On routes where
there are lots of requests for refunds, managers ride the trains until the
problems are addressed.
Mr. Warrington got some help from his predecessor, former Amtrak CEO
Thomas Downs, who persuaded Congress to grant the railroad $2.2 billion in
capital funds to modernize its facilities. Amtrak's nine-member board --
which currently includes former Democratic presidential candidate Michael
Dukakis and President-elect Bush's nominee for Secretary of Health and
Human Services, Wisconsin Gov. Tommy Thompson -- ousted Mr. Downs in 1997
when he took a hard line during labor negotiations.
Mr. Warrington has few illusions that Americans will end their love
affair with cars and planes. Still, he thinks he can make trains more
attractive by putting Hertz Corp. rental-car services in
Amtrak stations and combining some terminals with Laidlaw Inc.'s Greyhound Lines.
"We can share customers, and the systems work better," he says.
Helping Continental Airlines
Even Continental Airlines is turning to
Amtrak when weather or congestion cripples New Jersey's Newark Airport.
"Instead of having our customers sit around the airport or on the taxiway,
we just put them on the train," says Greg Brenneman, Continental's
president. Since last spring, Amtrak has carried more than 4,000
Continental passengers, mostly between Newark and Philadelphia.
To promote train travel, Amtrak is stepping up charters for professional
sports teams. It has carried the Washington Redskins and New York Giants
football teams to games in the Northeast. Mr. Warrington is thrilled that
an Amtrak train brought his favorite hockey team, the New York Rangers, to
a game in Philadelphia from the team's training camp in Rye, N.Y. A train
carrying the New York Giants wasn't so lucky, making an unscheduled,
two-hour stop in New Jersey when someone committed suicide on the
tracks.
In Chicago's Union Station, Mr. Warrington envisions the sprawling but
empty Great Hall brimming with shops, restaurants, people and commerce.
"The thing that flashes through my mind are dollar signs," he says.
Signs of dollars are what Amtrak needs most. Amtrak operating losses
have been running at more than $900 million a year, according to the U.S.
General Accounting Office, Congress's investigative arm. But Amtrak hotly
disputes including capital depreciation in any financial snapshot.
Officials argue that the government should continue to fund capital
expenditures, just as it does for highways and airports.
By another measure, the so-called budget gap, which excludes
depreciation and equipment overhauls, Amtrak reported $362 million in
losses for the year ended Sept. 30, 2000. Congressional outlays plugged
that gap, although $178 million of the money went to the railroad industry
retirement fund, an expense the government will continue to bear. The rest,
$184 million, was the subsidy for basic operating expenses which Amtrak
must eliminate. Towering over that figure, however, was more than $800
million in spending on infrastructure and equipment, according to Amtrak's
calculations.
Amtrak argues that it is staying on its "glide path" to
self-sufficiency. But it has had to rely on equipment-lease financing and
other measures to offset a one-year delay in launching Acela Express and
slower-than-expected growth of mail and express-cargo shipments.
Tackling labor costs might help, although that's the sort of politically
touchy effort that helped get Mr. Warrington's predecessor in trouble.
Congressional conservatives say Mr. Warrington ignores their advice that
Amtrak attack such costs more aggressively. "They want to call the shots
and ignore the wishes of those of us who want to bring accountability to
their operations," says Republican Sen. Wayne Allard of Colorado, an Amtrak
critic.
For instance, because of its rigid craft rules, Amtrak uses five
employees to change a locomotive traction motor. A rival private company
that competed with Amtrak to perform such maintenance jobs on Boston's
commuter trains says it takes only two or three employees. Mr. Warrington
says Amtrak is initiating some cost-saving labor agreements but has sought
to avoid direct confrontations with labor. "This is a service business, and
the key is the troops," he says.
Some passengers think the troops could do a better job. Susan Watts,
head of Internet firm ichildhood.com Inc., says her Amtrak trip from
Kingston, R.I., to New York City last spring took more than twice the
normal 3½ hours, because of locomotive failure, an unruly passenger
and other mishaps. "I kept thinking how crazy this was," she says. "Trains
all over the world run on time."
To meet Amtrak's congressional mandate, Mr. Warrington is banking on
revenue from Acela Express. By midyear, 20 Acela trains are expected to be
running on the Northeast Corridor, traveling at speeds as high as 150 miles
per hour. They will replace the Metroliners, which go only 125 mph. Mr.
Warrington is trying to reach agreements with freight railroads to put more
long-haul Amtrak trains on their tracks. But some railroads are resisting,
because they view the express shipments the new trains would carry as
competition. Mr. Warrington also is looking to squeeze out costs, for
example, by reducing Amtrak's parts inventory.
Help from the Mayors
Despite all the talk of self-sufficiency, Mr. Warrington acknowledges
that Amtrak will still need government help. He plans to ask Congress for
capital funding of $1.5 billion a year. He's working hard to build
political support; for instance, he has courted the U.S. Conference of
Mayors, which plans to ask for more passenger-rail investment when it
presents a wish list Wednesday to the incoming Bush administration.
Mr. Bush hasn't yet tipped his hand, but train advocates see some
positive signs. As Texas governor, he supported state legislation to loan
Amtrak $5 million to keep the Texas Eagle running between Chicago and San
Antonio.
Still, plenty in Washington question Mr. Warrington's strategy.
"George's philosophy is to grow his way out of his problems," says Phyllis
Scheinberg, a General Accounting Office associate director. "Unfortunately,
the cost increases have mostly wiped out the impact of revenue and
ridership gains, so Amtrak is no better off."
Some say only drastic action will cure Amtrak's woes. Gilbert
Carmichael, chairman of the Amtrak Reform Council, thinks an entity should
be created to own the railroad infrastructure in the Northeast, leaving
Amtrak as just an operator of trains. Andrew Selden, a Minneapolis attorney
and Amtrak critic who was interviewed for the Amtrak CEO job in 1998,
proposes splitting Amtrak into seven or eight autonomous entities.
When Congress debated a $10 billion bond bill for high-speed rail last
year, Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona, the Commerce Committee
chairman, opposed what he called another "Amtrak bailout." "I have seen
them come back and back and back and say, 'Oops, our estimates were wrong'
and get more money," says Mr. McCain, adding that $23 billion has been
spent on Amtrak since 1971.
Mr. Warrington, who makes a little more than $210,000 a year, bristles
at such criticism. "I have to be embarrassed about $23 billion for Amtrak
after all the money spent on highways and air?" he asks. "Give me a
break."
How much do they spend on roads? Air traffic control and airports?
Well, now that Bud Schulster is gone...
>They spend $23 BILLION on AMTRAK and yet it only carries one half of
>one percent of all interstate traffic.
It's your own fault not to make use of a perfectly good service that is being offered. It is true that Amtrak do have their fair share of rude attendents (Chicago Crewbase heads up) and that they do run late quite frequently (CSX, whose own intermodals average all of 23mph, heads up) ~ but it's a perfectly good service if you are looking for a good train ride perhaps to visit relatives or go to/from college, Amtrak is the one for you. For example if you had to drive from Illionis to Texas, it would probably take you at least one layover - not with Amtrak, the journey time is offered is exactly 25 hours.
>AMTRAK needs to focus strictly on the corridors so they can improve
>service AND make a profit (Oh! The horror) .
Focussing on the corridors? Yes, the corridors is where they do best, and funny enough, also where they own the infrastructure. If they are senseless enough to trim service down to just the NEC, they will find out painfully what British Rail found out under Dr Beeching in the 1960s. I rest my case. (Look up Beeching Cuts in your World Railroad History textbook).
Lexcie
Okay. I've heard a lot of rumors about the R-62s on the 6 line going to the 7 when the R-142s take over. Here's how I think they'll do it.
In the deep, dark, goblin-infested New York night, a R-62 will proceed southbound on the 6 line using the express track. At 125th Street, it will switch to the express (number 4) line. At some point, it will be turned around and proceed North up Jerome Avenue. North of Kingsbridge Road it will wrong-rail up the ramp to the 205th Street IND yard. It will turn around and proceed South on the Grand Concourse express track, following the D line all the way to Dekalb Avenue. Around that area, it will be switched to the N line. It will change direction and proceed North up the Broadway line's express track. It will go through the 60th Street tunnels into Queens, and be switched to the 7 via the diamond crossover on the upper level of Queensboro Plaza.
(WHEW!) One thing's for sure. Whatever motorperson gets that assignment will have a LOT of *&$#%ing fun!!!!
Your scenario is most likely correct.
Peace,
ANDEE
Couldn't they do it a little more simply?:
From the IND yard, just take the D line to 34th (or wherever you can turn arround onto the local), then follow the F to Queens Plaza, continue on the local to 46th, turn around via the R, go into the 60th St tunnel, turn arround onto the N, cross over at QBP, and voila!
Just asking.
:) Andrew
By "turn arround", or course I mean "reverse".
:-) Andrew
If you're riding a TS bound 7 train...
what lies in the tunnel mouth ahead of you
after the train has dumped at TS/42st??
Two layup tracks. About one train can fit on both tracks. Get Peter Dougherty's trackmap book if you want to know all this stuff. If you are a subway buff, it is comparable to the bible.
Track Map Book
Then there's a bulkhead behind bumper posts. And on the other side of the bulkhead, supposedly, is the lower level of the IND 42nd St. station.
Let's not go there . . . again.
Agreed.
Okay. I've heard a lot of rumors about the R-62s on the 6 line going to the 7 when the R-142s take over
This probably one of the best rumors we've had on subtalk...because everytime someone posts a question of when or if they will go to the #7, you get a million very different answers! -Nick
Did anybody even spot when the R36 Mainline cars got onto the #7 line??? Or did anyone even have pictures of trains crossing that diamond crossover? Heck, did anyone even spot those R36 Mainline cars running down the length of Central Park West and along the Broadway line? I haven't heard answers to any of those so the TA is quite a sneaky bunch. (or nobody wanted to stay up wee hours of the morning to catch those)
A friend of mine spotted a redbird consist on the Broadway line Friday evening. That's all I've heard of it.
The reason the 7 line WILL STAY AS A RED BIRD LINE is because they are having some problems with the WF R36s Also the line is very short of cars (e g alot of mixed consists) Pelham now has R 142As and NO LONGER needs redbirds. The R 62As CANNOT climb the hill between Vernon Jackson and Grand central. End of story. I also heard that MAINLINE R33s are next to arive. to the 7 line I dont know when.
I've heard other stories, such as that the 62s had problems when first tested on the 7, but have been fixed so they could run on them fine.
Andrew
How did the R62s work on the #7 during the redbird rehab in the mid 1980s? I only saw one picture of them on the #7 on one of the R62 pages....does anyone have more pics of this? -Nick
They were there for testing purposes, AFAIK. A group of R-17s filled in for the single R-33s when they were GOHd.
Look Tom, R62/62A could run on Flushing Line #7 the problem that they had in the mid 1980's when the R62/62A were new & were tested on the #7 line was the guard lights on the Steinway Tunnel that the R62/62A knocked them of. So back then they fixed that problem on Steinway Tubes. So all R62/62A could run on the Steinway Tunnels. Look @ the R127/134 they are families to the R62/62A & they pick up the garbage every day on the #7 line so what the big problem running R62/62A on that line? Also there is never a report of the R127/134 having trouble on the 7 line or the Steinway Tubes.
Here is what you might call the "smoking gun", an R62 perfectly happy on the 7 line.
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r62/r62-woodside.jpg
:-) Andrew
That picture is from the #7 being tested w/o passengers. However, I have seen a picture of the #7 R62 with passengers somewhere before. Why else would the MTA put the purple sticker on the front? -Nick
We are talkin' the WEE hours of the morning. From what someone told me, it's done really late. We're talking 2 or 3 in the morning.
I did see a redbird sitting on the south bound Pacific street Platform one Evening around 2 am I just thought it was going to Coney
because sometimes they do send a 7 that way .
I think you are basically correct, but instead of reversing them at Dekalb, they may run them to Coney Island yard for a check-up before sending them north, since that is where Flushing cars get major maintenance done.
With all those midnite G.O's going on all over the place, the routing would be "The Path of the Fewest G.O.'s
Everyone wonders how the Flushing line gets their cars, but how about when the redbirds have to go to Coney Island for major work. Since the QBP upper tracks is the only connector, I know that the train has to wrong rail towards QBP. Now the buttons on the upper level flushing line say Local, Express, Cancel. How is the crossover accomplished...the same way it goes from Astoria -> Flushing but in reverse or does the Flushing -> Astoria crossover work.
Ok now it's on the Astoria track...does it go towards 39 Av to do cross back to the Manhattan bound track or does it wrong rail toward the tunnel and use the crossover before it reaches tunnel?
=)
Now the buttons on the upper level flushing line say Local, Express, Cancel. How is the crossover accomplished...the same way it goes from Astoria -> Flushing but in reverse or does the Flushing -> Astoria crossover work.
Ok now it's on the Astoria track...does it go towards 39 Av to do cross back to the Manhattan bound track or does it wrong rail toward the tunnel and use the crossover before it reaches tunnel?
The route request at Queenboro Plaza is for the X20 Ball, which separates out Main St-bound expresses from locals. The BMT crossover is X8, which requires the tower to change it when they know a CI transfer is taking place.
The train wrong rails into Queenboro, dumps, reverses, takes a bottom yellow on X8 and goes up the Asoria bound M Track to 39 Ave. Then it dumps again, reverses and moves out onto the Manhattan bound track of the BMT.
Oh it's rather simple really. All the R62A's will stay at Westchester Yard. The TA will then buy this huge humongaloid helicopter which will be operated by two TSS's with darkish beige colored noses and thick kneepads. They will airlift each individual car to Corona Yard making sure that the transfer is completed before the start of the US Open. To save on energy and fuel costs, the copters will have a governor (not Pataki) installed to limit it to 20 mph and will have an old R10 controller to operate it instead of a joystick. Also the new TA boat (a favorite target for scratchitti vandals as we all know) will be on standby with two redbirds in tow. In the event that a R62 car falls into the LI Sound, the boat with a very strong fishing reel will pull the car out and replace it with a redbird car to be placed in the exact same spot. Easy eh?
Sounds like an onset of HPS to me.:-)
The 62's still cant handle the tubes or the incline So the Redbirds
will fly for another year of so till Kawasaki Builds more 142's with
higher horsepower
You don't suppose there will be a group of R-142 Steinways, do you?
I found this over at the Straphanger's board. The only thing I will admit to, is knowing the original poster - a fellow IRT TO who lives in Queens.
This proposal is ill-conceived. They have the right idea about necessary changes, but not this. There is no place for another line on Queens Blvd. As it is now with this proposal, Queens Blvd has the potential to have 6 lines at once. This is not good, especially when you're trying to alleviate crowds. And I'm not in favor of turning 2nd Av into a terminal. It is one of the top two filthiest stations in the system. However I am in favor of certain service changes. I have some ideas that coincide. Here goes:
1) There shouldn't be a V train. The Q would run from 71 Av or 179 St to Canal St via Broadway weekdays, no longer running to Brooklyn. This move would make Jamaica yard home for the Q.
2) Replacing the Q as the Brighton express will be the M, returning to the Brighton line, running between Metropolitan Av & Brighton Beach weekdays until 10pm. The shuttle is operational at 10pm weekdays & weekends.
3) The B would run to 59 St-Columbus Circle on weekends.
4) The R would run to 57 St-7 Av all times except nights.
5) The G would run from Court Sq to Church Av and Av X rush hours. This move would make Coney Island yard home for the G. Right after rush hour, trains can be put directly into the yard.
6) The peak express service of days gone by for the F in Brooklyn (Church Av-Kings Hwy) would be restored with the G service running local.
These are my ideas. Please share your views with me. I'm not only a fan but I'm also a train operator.
Run the M as the Brighton express? I can hear the howls of protest echoing across south central Brooklyn even now. Plus, I'm not sure from this post if it's assumed the N would return to bridge service when the Broadway tracks reopen, or where the D will be going. I assume the N would go to Astoria, because the R is ending at 57th-7th and someone has to go to Astoria.
I like the idea of restoring Culver express service, but the Bergen street repairs will scrub any hope for that to happen for a while. And as has been pointed out on this board too many times to count, unless you have a Manhattan local service (V or F) serving Carroll Gardens, there's no chance of restoring Culver express service with only the G serving Carroll, Smith-9th and Fourth Ave.
I don't see why the Q would have to be cut off at Canal. Couldn't it just run from 179th to Coney Island via Queens Blvd/63rd St/Broadway/Manny-B/Brighton?
Just goes to show you that they'll hire anyone down here.
Terminating th B at 59th/Columbus Circle on weekends would screw up CPW IND service beyond belief! He should stick to the IRT, it's obvious he knows nada about the B division.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know this wasn't posted by somebody on the board, but I'm quoting so I can illustrate what I am saying.
"There is no place for another line on Queens Blvd."
There will still be four lines, instead of the E, F, G, R, it will be E, F, R, V. Nothing extra.
"There shouldn't be a V train. The Q would run from 71 Av or 179 St to Canal St via Broadway weekdays, no longer running to Brooklyn."
First part agreed, however it is the perfect line for Brooklyn and it should go there as an express instead of messing things up at Canal.
"Replacing the Q as the Brighton express will be the M."
The Q as the Brighton Express sends express riders to Broadway, where everyone's going. The M sends you to just a few stops in Manhattan before going out to finish its run with the J/Z. Not much direct service.
"The B would run to 59 St-Columbus Circle on weekends."
This would mess up the A, C, and D trying to get by making things extremely hectic, and how would it turn around?
"The R would run to 57 St-7 Av all times except nights."
Why? That ends direct 60th-QB service, making the 63rd St connection absolutely useless.
"The G would run from Court Sq to Church Av and Av X rush hours"
Which one? Church Ave or Ave X? It makes a difference. Also, why not Kings Highway?
I was always on the assumption that the Amtrak NEC worked on a 4 block signaling system. Clear, Advance Approach, Approach and Stop and Proceed. However on my recent trip on the NEC I only observed a 3 block system. S&P signals went directly to Approach. My thought was that maybe the local tracks are 3 block, but on my SEPTA ride an Amtrak passed us and I caught the next center track signal also switch to approach. What's up with this? Who will they ever expect to run at 135, let alone 150 with a 3 block system. Now at one point my SEPTA train's cab signal changed to an approach medium in the absence of a fixed wayside signal. It happened just after MORRIS interlocking and I believe the cab signal change point that comes before every home signal turns that stretch into a small 4 block section. I have also seen Advance Approach signals in the Newark area. Can anybody shed some light on this?
Can someone tell me how,or where one would go about buying
old or scrapped subway cars?
I don't know exactly which MTA official you should contact, but definitely find out how and the price of getting the car to your house! -Nick
Also, find out if there are any zoning restrictions relating to large, rail mounted vehicles.
again not a problem
You've certainly got MY curiosity piqued ... whatcha got in mind for that car? What are you looking for in particular?
Unique restaurant? Personal transportation? Got 600 DC handy? I've always fantasized snatching up an R9 somewhere, laying down some 100 pound rail, some 50 pound rail and using it between the house and the nearest road ... but the farm village I live in would go BALLISTIC if I were to do so. That's why I'm curious about what you wanna do. I just see this image of diners past with a Redbird instead of a Pullman up on blocks.
art project looking for a low-v or 2 scrap bodies or whole thing
what ever we can get our hands on
not a problem with moving it
I have been talking with some people and I have reason to believe that the LIRR ACS cab signaling system has some dangerous flaws. Unlike the PRR system used by Amtrak, MNRR, NJT, CSX, NS and UP where there is a mini display in the cab and 4 speeds are used in accordance with the state of the signals and the state of the block, the LIRR system uses many more speed codes ties in Perminent Speed Restrictions (PSR's) into the mix. Whatever is lower of the signal and line seed is displayed to the driver in the form of a LED speed readout. The problem with this is that the driver is never shows an in cab signal aspect. Cab signals were originly designed so that drivers never forgot the signal they had just passed. There is more to a signal than just a restructive speed. An Approach signal limits the driver to 30 mph and tells him to be prepared to stop at next signal. This means driving no faster than 30 at all times, but as your approach the next signal it also mean driving much slower than 30. Lets say a particiular piece of track has a PSR of 30. If the wayside signal b4 it might show clear or approach, but the cab MAS will always be 30, as I understand it. If its foggy out and the driver misses or mistakes the Approach he would approach the next signal not prepared to stop and might rear end another train or burst into an interlocking. Because the consequinces of misunderstanding a signal is greater than a PSR, signals should be displayed in the cab, not just speeds.
/*I have been talking with some people and I have reason to believe that the LIRR ACS cab signaling system has some dangerous flaws.*/
That's interesting....
/*Unlike the PRR system used by Amtrak, MNRR, NJT, CSX, NS and
UP where there is a mini display in the cab and 4 speeds are used in accordance with the state of the signals and the state of the block, the LIRR system uses many more speed codes ties in Perminent Speed
Restrictions (PSR's) into the mix.*/
Um....
The MN system is NOT the same as Amtrak's. Not by a long shot.
And no, the LIRR system doesn't tie in all PSRs, because it doesn't flip at places where you drop from 80 to, say, 60. Like Queens interlocking.
/*Whatever is lower of the signal and line seed is displayed to the
driver in the form of a LED speed readout.*/
Like lots of other systems.
/*The problem with this is that the driver is never shows an
in cab signal aspect.*/
So what? The TGV's system I don't think does, nor do many others. MN's doesn't really, BTW.
/*Cab signals were originly designed so that drivers never forgot the signal they had just passed.*/
Boy, that really worked well. Of course, it also assumes that the human element will *obey* those signals. Practice reveals that's not the case. Didnt' the GG-1s have cabn signals from the beginning?
/*There is more to a signal than just a restructive speed. An Approach signal limits the driver to 30 mph and tells him to be prepared to stop at next signal.*/ But you're going to stop at a *wayside* signal. In any case, the LIRR goes drops again before the signal, I believe.
/*This means driving no faster than 30 at all times, but as your approach the next signal it also mean driving much slower than 30.*/
It'll drop to 15 or 0 before you hit the next signal, I think.
/*Lets say a particiular piece of track has a PSR of 30. If the wayside signal b4 it might show clear or approach, but the cab MAS will always be 30, as I understand it.*/
Beats me. The Port Washington line MAS is 60, but the ASC says 80.
/*If its foggy out and the driver misses or mistakes the
Approach he would approach the next signal not prepared to stop and might rear end another train or burst into an interlocking.*/
No, he'll be dropped to 15mph first, at which point, if it's not obvious what he did wrong, than he'll crawl at 15mph. Thus, on paper, the fastest closing speed achiveable is 30mph, which is probbably well within the ability of an MU to stop in visual distance. Thanks, of course, to modern brakes and unsafe lightweight design.
/*Because the consequinces of misunderstanding a signal is greater than a PSR, signals should be displayed in the cab, not just speeds.*/
Perhaps. IMHO, all the cab signal systems used over here are fairly defficient, and I don't care WHAT the BLE or anyone else says, I don't want a human element (a/k/a the engineer) having final say over how fast the train goes.
I've seen and read a bit on the system the Germans use on the ICE, which not only tells you the MAS where you are, but the "target" speed by the time you reach the next signal, and HOW FAR you are away from it. THus, if you enter a 1 mile long block at 80, and the speed in the next block is 40, it'll tell you that, and also tell you how far you are away from the drop to 40. Which, of course, if you exceed, gewts you a nasty buzzer and a penalty brake application. Such a system has obvious advantages. I don't know if the ICE has absolute stops, or if all stop signals are stop and proceed, like the TGV is.
BTW, MN is only signaled at the wayside at interlockings, and the signals only indicate to stop, or proceed under cab signal control.
More or less, but that's basically it.
The MN system is like Amtrak's cab signal system or the system installed on the Conrail Boston Line. There are 5 aspects, Clear, Approach Medium, Approach and Restricting. They are represented by coloured LED's (G, Y/G, Y, R) located around the speedo instead of PL signals. The whole system is made by US&S who first devoloped it for the PRR back in the 20's.
In my example I was wrong if that it could ever happen at an interlocking because there is a cab signal change point 1 30mph braking distance from the home signal. However the fact that 1 cab signals could show for 2 different wayside signals is a defect. I have no problem with the LED speed readouts only that a speed may not represent the state of the block and the blocks ahead.
Perhaps. IMHO, all the cab signal systems used over here are fairly defficient, and I don't care WHAT the BLE or anyone else says, I don't want a human element (a/k/a the engineer) having final say over how fast the train goes.
Engineers are very highly trained and very professional. US rail travel has many variables that an automated system can't efficiently emmulate. Also fully automatic will have failures and then you get inexperianced engineers trying to drive trains manually. This is also why I am against a no-code = 0 mph system. Any cab signal failure or any permissive running will necessitate cutting out ATC which is even more dangerous. The rate of engineer caused, mainline train collisions is laudibly small.
/*Engineers are very highly trained and very professional.*/
Oh, I feel so much better knowing that they're held to high standards.
I'm sure even with drug testing, there's at least a few that are out there on something. Not to mention fatigue issues, inattention,
weather, physical problems, etc.
/*US rail travel has many variables that an automated system can't efficiently emmulate.*/
You'll notice that nobody was calling for a fully sutomated system. Rather, a better than the existing system, which has its problems.
/*Also fully automatic will have failures and then you
get inexperianced engineers trying to drive trains manually.*/
Once again, nobody's even proposing that here.
/*This is also why I am against a no-code = 0 mph system.*/
So we should let a "professional" on a late running train, with X thousand angry passengers waiting to hang him/her make decisions about is that REALLY a stop signal?
Lack of cab signals and automatic stops killed alomst 100 people back in 1950 on the LIRR. Ever since the ASC system was forced down the LIRR's throght, there hasn't been a major collision.
/*Any cab signal failure or any permissive running will necessitate cutting out ATC which is even more dangerous.*/
Perhaps. But They are supposed to be rules in place. Of course, we can count on the humans factors here to obey those rules, right?
Lets face it, I'm sure we've all been on trains where the speed limits have been liberally interpreted. It happens.
/* The rate of engineer caused, mainline train collisions is laudibly
small.*/
So what's wrong with making it smaller? IMHO, cab signals should be required by law on ALL trains and locomotives. MAYBE an exception for switchers that never leave yard limits (along with a solid definition of "switcher", to prevent RRs from trying to exploit a loophole). It should be seen as basic safety equipment, just like functioning brakes are.
Better safety equipment means safer trains which means less accidents which means lower costs. Not to mention, the advantages of squeezing more out of existing tracks, and moving trains faster.
Now don't get me wrong, but I love cab signals, but speaking from praticality you can't require them on all lines. Most lines aren't even signaled. Don't tell me they should be because to install and maintain signals on freight secondary tracks would be an amazing waste of money.
If you are spending money on safety you should spend it where it can do the most good. Grade crossings and equipment failures cause about 90 to 95% (or even more) of the accidents. I can't remember the last time 2 trains collided outside of yard operations (I'm sure there have been some, but not in the last month of so). I can remember many accidents due to other causes. Every day on Eastern Rail News there are 1 or 2 reported derailments due to equipment failure or grade crossing accidents.
So we should let a "professional" on a late running train, with X thousand angry passengers waiting to hang him/her make decisions about is that REALLY a stop signal?
Do you know what permissive running is? Do you know how impostant it is to easing congestion on US railroads? Would you want the airwaves clogged with requests to cout out ATC and pass a S&P signal or a Resticting? Terminal areas are so complicated that it would be a nightmare trying to get cab signal codes working. Currently terminals just don't have any cab signal codes. All trains just show restricting.
You may not put much stock in professionalism, but after I read the Hot Times segment about how you become an engineer I devoloped a new respect for LE's. It takes years of on the job training and very thourough schooling and exams. If LE's ever run red STOP signal they are instantly fired.
I will also advocate that cab signals display signals rather than speeds because signals dictate a courses of action as well as speeds.
I have been talking with some people and I have reason to believe that the LIRR ACS cab signaling system has
some dangerous flaws
Well don't waste precious time telling this to railfans, get
on the phone right now and call up the FRA! Lives could
be at stake!
It's ASC. If the engineer (not the driver, this is the US, not
the UK, thank you) forgets to comply with the speed indication
the penalty brake takes care of it. The cab signal points
are laid out such that there is always sufficient braking room
to stop the train before the next one.
The braking distances are fine. The problem is that an engineer could run through a block where he should be preparing to stop as if the next signal was not red. There is usually not enough distance to stop from MAS with in the distance a signal is visable.
If there is a stop or stop/proceed signal, the code flips are
going to be laid out in approach to that signal to take the
train down gradually from MAS.
That only works with multiple cab signal change points in a given block. The only mid-block cab signal change points are located at interlockings.
No, it works fine the way it is. Think about it some more.
According to discussions I've had with LIRR personnel, the ASC works in such a manner that the speed control is updated according to existing conditions.
The example I was given is that if 2 trains were placed on the same track of the Babylon Line (which is 2-way signalled) heading toward each other, the indications (and the automatic braking system) would become increasingly restricted as the trains approached each other until they were each brought down to switching speed, without requiring any human intervention.
I don't believe there has ever been a collision on the LIRR brought about by ASC failure.
The ASC is a good system and safer a wayside only system. However there are specific flaws that can arrise from not being able to the state of the block from the ASC given speed. There are a few specific examples where this lack of block information would lead to an accident if the driver became confused as to the last wayside signal he had passed.
I can't speak for the rest of the system, but the Babylon Line has NO wayside signals, except at interlockings.
Everything is in the cab.
If you've cleared an interlocking, and the cab signals shows the current speed, why would you possibly need wayside signals (as reference my paragraph above).
The ASC can be cut out, but this is only done under extreme conditions and then you must operate under train orders, a slow and laborious process. I was on an LIRR train during an ice storm when this was in effect. It was murder, we got to Penn hours late but we got there.
why would you possibly need wayside signals (as reference my paragraph above).
Because wayside signals explicitly convey block information and ASC dosen't. An Approach signal is more than going 30 mph and a Restricting signal is more than going 20 mph. Those 2 signal rules place extra responsibilities on the engineer. If the engineer only obeys the speed restriction he will run into trouble. I was pointing out that as I understand ASC works both a clear block and an approach block can both signal a 30 code.
Now waysideless routes might be immune from this problem through the use of block overlaps, but I don't know if they exist. I am confident that on lines with CSS and wayside signals there are only code change points in line with the wayside signals.
I believe that the Long Beach branch also has eliminated wayside signals. There were two visible from the East Rockaway station when I was growing up 20 years ago, but both are gone now.
CG
According to discussions I've had with LIRR personnel, the ASC works in such a manner that the speed control is updated according to existing conditions.
The example I was given is that if 2 trains were placed on the same track of the Babylon Line (which is 2-way signalled) heading toward each other, the indications (and the automatic braking system) would become increasingly restricted as the trains approached each other until they were each brought down to switching speed, without requiring any human intervention.
I don't believe there has ever been a collision on the LIRR brought about by ASC failure.
What does the following mean on the HBLR? Red over flashing red.
Red with a flashing white? I guess the latter means proceed with cab signal.
In most all other U.S. cities with subways, the systems shut down during the overnight for reasons ranging from daily maintenance(any city but Philly) to every rider asleep by 8:30pm(Philly).
NYC, as usual, has to be different and stays open all night. Do you think it would make any difference in terms of upkeep of the system, things like transferring R-62's to the 7 via every other IND/BMT line in Manhattan and general maintenence if the system shut down at night?
Do that many people really ride(particularly outside Manhattan) after 10pm?
Yes, many people do ride at night after 10 PM. After school dances (which end at 10 or 11) students at my school (as well as others) will end up riding at late hours, even until about 12:30 AM thanks to crappy bus schedules and no express service. Try to get from Briarwood to Rockaway Park after the Q-53, Q-21, and Q-11 all stop running.
People also work at night, go to school at night, arrive and depart on Commuter and Amtrak trains, come back from their girlfriends', etc.
The 1 train is has moderate crowds Bronx-bound until about 1AM. Later on weekends. South Ferry-bound after 10PM, crowds don't pick up until about 137th, sometimes after that.
The Flushing-bound 7 train is often standing room only well into Queens even at 2 AM. Manhattan bound isn't SRO, but does have plenty of riders.
I don't think I've ridden any of the other lines in the outer boroughs during the overnight period enough to comment.
CG
I have ridden many lines overnight as I am a Night lunch Relief. I have stood at 3am on the A in Brooklyn and Queens, J, L. Next pick I will be working Brooklyn N,R; Washington heights 1 and A; among others. I'll comment on those next pick.
Is that 7 SRO all the way to Flushing after midnight? If so Flushing is a busier place than I thought.
(alright, it's time to wipe the egg off my face!)
"Is that 7 SRO all the way to Flushing after midnight?"
Probably not. When I took it frequently during the overnights, it was usually SRO even when I got off at 46-Bliss. Enough so that it probably was for a few stops after that.
CG
This city got POP (not TNN).
Sure find lotta action and
intrigue..... even at 2am.
on the 1.
Here's one for you South Ferry and it's right in your wheelhouse. Can you (or anybody else for that matter) tell me why on earth the #1 and 9 trains come out of the tunnel twice in mid and upper Manhattan, crowded region that it is? I know the 4, 5, and 6, are underground throughout their meanderings in the borough, and so are the BMT N and R, plus the Independent F. In fact all trains in Manhattan stay underground throughout but the 1 and 9. How come?
As a matter of fact, I asked the same question awhile back about the 1/9 train coming out of the ground for only one stop at 125th street. It turns out that a deep valley cuts through the path of the tunnel at that point. Thanks to all the subtalkers who explained that one to me!
Mark Michalovic
It's the Manhattan Valley, and rather than tunnel beneath it, the IRT engineers decided to elevate the original line across it. If you ride on that portion of the line, the tracks remain fairly level along it.
And (I read) that the West Side IRT was elevated from Dyckman northward because it was cheaper to build it that way, rather than continue digging the Washington Heights Mine Tunnel. That subway portion is very deep and cuts through solid rock - note the round-bore construction from the 160s (or thereabouts) to the portal.
(And (I read) that the West Side IRT was elevated from Dyckman northward because it was cheaper to build it that way, rather than continue digging the Washington Heights Mine Tunnel.)
As in Manhattan Valley, the subway is level but the land falls away toward the Harlem River.
Manhattan Valley. It sounds like a play on words. With all the traffic and buildings and activity in the region, one would be hard pressed to see anything there that looks like a valley. However, I did get my question answered about why the #'s 1 and 9 trains surface out of the tunnel when all other lines in Manhattan do not.
Manhattan Valley. It sounds like a play on words. With all the traffic and buildings and activity in the region, one would be hard pressed to see anything there that looks like a valley.
No you wouldn't, just look stand at any intersection and look at how the land rises to both the south and the north.
Also stand at the top of the hills and look down at all of the (mostly short) buildings.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.. (cough cough) Are you KIDDING??? I came home on the 2 line at 2AM once and there were STILL about 20 people per car. The subway has been running all night since October 27, 1904, and it will stay that way. This city is now much too dependant on the subway. Don't forget. Most other cities got their subway systems after the city expanded as far as it would probably go. The subway was just a suppliment. In NYC, the city COULDN'T have grown at the time without the system. The North Bronx was comparable to Montauk in 1904. Can you imagine this city without the subway? If it grew to 1 tenth its current size, I'd be surprised. Oh, by the way. We're also the only city in the world with full fledged, hard core, gangsta express service. Next time you complain about a delay, think about it.
It's strange that the only nighttime express service in the entire system is the D, 6th ave and CPW express. The A is relegated to the local stops at night, probably because if it went express with the D local it would cause a tad of a snarl at 59th since it must make all local stops s/o 59th, and crossovers aren't positioned well for this.
Philly has 4 track express/local service too, on the Broad st line. Ours is of course way bigger.
We're also the only city in the world with full fledged, hard core, gangsta express service.
You forget Chicago (the Purple Line Express) and Philly (the Broad Street Subway). Last time I checked, both have four-track express service even if it doesn't run 24/7. Chicago's two main trunk routes do run 24 hours a day seven days a week, however, and they have ample ridership to justify it.
(Actually, I'm fairly confident that Chicago would have ridership to justify 24 hours service on most of the L lines like we had back in ye olde days, but *shhhh* don't tell that to anybody at CTA headquarters.)
True, New York has many more express routes, but then, New York is a much bigger city with a much bigger subway system. Sorta goes with the territory. That said, crawling along at 35 MPH barely counts as an express in my book, expecially when even the local trains in the aforementioned two cities regularly reach 55 MPH. Sorry to rain on your parade, but Chicago and Philly both have New York well-spanked by that particular measure.
I agree 100% with the rest of what you say, though... IMO, rapid transit is just as important a part of our public infrastructure as the streets and sewers, and in any halfway decent-sized city it should be available to the public 24/7 just like the streets and sewers.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I always thought 24 hour service was what made the NY subway better than all the others. A world class city; the city that never sleeps,... And whenever I'm there, I'm just as likely to ride after midnight as I am before midnight. (But then I'm young, and when I go to NY it's an occasion, not my everyday life).
Yea, I know you're young if you ride the trains late at night. I tried that when I was in New York for two weeks in the summer of '99, and I wasn't a damn for two days. Do it now because as you get older you're body tells you other things---no matter how good of shape u=you think you're in.
I work midnights on the 1 and yes people do ride after 10pm. There are also an astounding number of TA workers riding the rails to either get home or get to work, and a large number don't drive.
PATCO, Philly and S. Jersey's subway is a 24-hr. operation. Whenever maintenance needs to be done, they go to single-tracking, since PATCO does NOT have a shuttle-bus substitute.
Well being a night owl has its perks , First the 4 after midnight is
usually standing room only till brooklyn bridge.The G is a ghost town,
N on broadway from Times square till Whitehall is packed with younger crowds from Jersey and S.I , But without a doubt the most crowded is the A ,THat Slow crawl From 59st to Broadway JUnction is
SRO until 4 am they need more nigth service on the A,D,2,4,and 6.
At least my Sea Beach is chugging along into the wee hours of the morning and packed during its Manhattan run. I have a sneaky suspicion, though, that it thins out considerably once it gets into Brooklyn. I can't see too many people heading out to Coney Island at that time. Would be fun, though, if there were amusements open real late in Coney, but that is a thing of the past, I'm afraid. Maybe one day.
a whole lot of people live in coney island and areas surrounding the sea beach line, a lot of people use that line after Midnight, i am witness to this, also the f and d line to coney island sees ridership during those hours
Some of NYC Lines are so long that unless you ran the line 24hrs you won't have trains where you need them come morning rush hour. Think of the D line, you would have to lay up trains in Manhattan to get them running for the morning rush. Where would you put them?
Even at 2am in the morning the D is running a 20 minute headway, 3 trains an hour. That is impressive if you ask me. I never sat down and figured out how many D trains are on the road at 2am but thank goodness they are there.
New York has been the "city that never sleeps" since before it had subways.
In the 1880s, when the horsecar lines were being converted to cable, the city had a problem. The cable car system, developed in San Francisco, had to be shut down for a couple of hours every night for cable inspection and maintenance. The unique New York solution -- run two cables in the slot, so one could be shut down for maintenance while the other kept the cars running all night!
As far as I know, New York was the only system to use the dual cables for 24-hour operation.
-- Ed Sachs
I guess it's up to me to make the other argument.
Ridership is low after 12:00 a.m, and before 6:00 a.m., but the TA runs virtually the same service network at that time as in rush hour. In order to keep its cost per ride reasonable, the TA shrinks down service on all its lines, with trains running once every 20 mintues and most buses every 30 minutes. A transit trip at night, therefore, can involve two or more very long waits. It can take forever, and shuttles make it worse.
The TA is also moving to unmanned stations, since the stations are too dangerous for employees. Most vandalism takes place overnight. Most crime on the subway takes place overnight. The need to reroute trains for maintenace slows service even further. The need to stay safe from trains slows maintenance.
I believe the TA should throw the daytime subway and bus maps away in the late night hours. It should come up with a separate bus-subway system for the overnight hours that provides the best (fastest and most frequent) possible service at the lowest possible cost. And it should take into account the fact that buses can move on the streets much faster at 4 a.m. than at 4 p.m., and are thus a better substitute for subways -- especially if they run express and can be equipped with transponders to turn the traffic lights green.
Such a service would probably involve running the IRT only (or perhaps the IRT local only) with trains every 2.5 minutes at the least. You'd have to walk a little farther, but you'd wait a lot less, and the stations that were open would be very busy, and manned.
The trains would carry you to bus tranfer points at 137th St on the #1, the Hub in the Bronx and Grand Army Plaza in Brooklynon the 2-3, Yankee Stadium in the Bronx and Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn on the 4/5, Parkchester (express from the South Bronx) on the #6, and Queensborough -- express to Flushing on the 7.
From there, bus routes designed just for the late nights would run every 10 minutes at the least. You might have a bit longer walk from the bus, but your maximum wait for both subway and train would be down to just 12 minutes (and your average wait down to six minutes), and it would take place in a crowded, not isolated environment.
I'd run the buses down busy, well lit streets, even if they aren't bus routes in the day -- in Brooklyn 4th Avenue, Ocean Parkway, Eastern Parkway, and Ocean Avenue are examples. And I'd put buses serving outer areas of the city on the highway, bypassing the inner areas, before beginning their run. A Far Rockaway bus, for example, could leave from Queensborough, take the LIE to Woodhaven Blvd, then start making widely spaced stops down Woodahaven Blvd and Cross Bay Boulevard and over to Far Rock. Factoring in the waits, it would be much faster than the A train, at night, and probably much safer.
The arguments against are historical, but the city is not a musuem.
Your idea has great merit The TA has stats as to what lines carry the most pax loads and the stations they use. This info can be used to taylor the system for max safety frequency anc cost effectivness.It would be painful as any major change is painful not so in the physical way but preceived mental frustration to the unknowns of change.
I've ridden the IND 8th ave. lines frequently uptown from West 4th St., after 2 am, usually on weekends. The trains and the station have always been well-populated. However, 14th-Union on the BMT tends to be deserted at the same time. The N trains have a moderate number of people.
The second time I visited NYC (June 29-30, 1984) I rode the E from West 4 to 179-Jamaica and back to 42nd St., around 6 am on a Saturday. The train was full for both trips.
An interesting piece from the book "Subway Lives" explains why the system is kept open 24/7. It involves Far Rockaway. The author says that since it takes forever for the A to get into Manhattan from Far Rock, it thus takes forever to get that A out to Far Rock to begin morning service. So they may as well run the system all night.
(This was written before termination of the JFK Express, when the A ran express in Bkln only during rush hour.) Very amusing...
Interesting summation, I enjoyed it.
Peace,
ANDEE
On my way home from work I saw R-142 6421-25 being tested on the Dyre avenue line, It was on the second track beside the downtown track.I saw it pass us around Pelham Parkway, it stopped between Baychester and Dyre Avenue and headed back towards Unionport going at about 30 miles an hour or so this was around 5:30 or so.I also saw several R-142's at Unionport are they ready for service yet?
by next week
6321-25 and 6346-50 are being readied for revenue service. The train was making simulated stops on the 2 this evening....
-Stef
Can I ride that new Amtrak train from Poughkeepsie to Penn Station? I don't want to take a very long ride or spend too much, I just want to check it out. How much more is the ride?
Nope ... that baby is coastal lines only. Hey! Be grateful the RDC's aren't running anymore between Po'town and Croton North. Us upstaters should be glad we don't have to do Mountain View lines. :)
Not on the Hudson line, the Turboliner's as close as you can get to Acela on the Hudson...
If you want the Acela, try New Haven to NYP (or, for the same price, to NWK and get to spend much more time on the train). Keep in mind it is reserve seating, so if you reserve the day before or the day of your trip, you ain't gettin' a window (and it may be sold out entirely). You can always walk through the train while it does its extra-long NYP stop (watch the arrivals, go to the track from the lower level to bypass ticket check).
Non ACELA New Haven to Penn is $34 or $31 with AAA discount one way. I don't know what the ACELA fare is.
I've heard some news to the effect that MTH -- besides having had the already mentioned roof-detail problems -- is also having some kind of payment problems with the importation fees/technicalities.
If what I heard is true, then these cars probably won't be seen till summer time.
Has anyone heard more on this?
BMTman
Smart marketing ploy if you ask me...
Once a Redbirdee... always a Redbirdee.
This proves my exact point about the R62As NOT going to the 7 line. Pelham is sending them to the # 1 line. I would assume that 1801-1885 will go to the 3 since 1651-1680 are already on the 1 and 1886-1890 with 1896-1900 are on the 3 already. I did see the 1690s all in numerical order 1691-1700. they are leaving pelham soon to go to the # 1 line.it loks like 1651-1880 will be on the 1 and 1881-1900 will be on the 3 The 1600s that went to the 1 line now wear red stickers. from what i was told.
With all due respect, I don't think that actually PROVES anything. Everything I've heard elsewhere suggest that the 7 is getting the 62A's.
Andrew
Send us all the r62a's you got, Pelham..
... just as long as we dont get stuck with
those crabcakes you call r142s.. fact is..
wasnt the ORIGINAL r62/62a fleet BORN on
the 1 line (pre-pelham days)??
Paging Mr. Stef..
Tom,
It might be true that the #7 is not getting R62A's. But before you get extremely sure, perhaps you should not dodge other questions that have been asked....like I brought up how the R62s ran on the #7 during the redbird rehab in the mid 1980s after you said that the R62s could not run on the #7.
I understand that you may not have the answer to that...which is fine. But at the same time, it gives you more reason to hear all the facts first.
Peace,
Nick
If I remember correctly, the R62s/R62As originally had problems running through the 42 Street tunnel. They're guard lights etc. were torn off when it tried to run there. Since then the problem has been fixed and all A-Division equipment can run on the 7 Line.
I reported this last month when I saw 1660-1670 from Pelham on the #1 line around Marble Hill. Well! welcome back all the first sets of R62A because to the #1 line those sets that Pelham R62A were on the #1 line @ the beginning of 1986.
Does anyone have any idea about how much longer the Redbirds will be in regular service? Is it months or years. Will they still be around in July?
The way it looks now, they'll still be here in July.
Peace,
ANDEE
And with any luck, I'll still be able to greet them come October.
That is very possisble.
Peace,
ANDEE
Would it still be beter for me vist New York in March over July if I want to ride the redbirds? I have only been on the New York subway once and I do not remmber what cars as was on as a was to young to notice. Are the Redbirds worth riding?
Simple answer is yes.
Especially if you like to have a railfan's view.
Hero honored in The Bronx
Peace,
ANDEE
city hall will announce today that the entire r142 fleet will be assigned to provide all service on the east side museum mile people mover,which is designed to aid museum goers in going from one museum to another in inclement weather... the cars will be parked on the southbound local tracks from 110th street to 72nd street with all storm doors pegged open... museum milers will be given a special metrocard which will allow them unlimited entry to the r142 people mover...
at this very moment, the scheduling department is working furiously to try to provide an alternate service plan for regular east side customers...
Mass transit in NYC.
No, he didn't propose giving NYC schoolchildren a pro-rate share of school aid, but he did decide that the city must be punished for having the gall to think it deserves the same services as everyone else in exchange for higher taxes.
He said that the MTA capital plan is the MTA's problem. Doesn't he realize that people are beginning to figure out who is in charge of the MTA -- HE IS.
He will appeal the judges decision on school aid. It's offensive. Elsewhere in the U.S., the debate is whether states are obligated to provide MORE aid to poor minority cities to make up for disadvantaged backgrounds and poor local tax bases. Here in NY, we are far from having that arguement. The question is whether NYC can be given LESS.
If the MTA were actually an independent body, it would scrap the real improvements (ie. the LIRR to GCT) and raise the fare to keep the system from collapse. But it isn't, so it will just borrow more money and doom itself in the long run.
If you think Paturkey's an Ahole over this, just wait until June when the failures of his PSC start kicking in. San Francisco's darkness is only the dress rehearsal. But folks keep voting for the elephant party. This is what ya gets.
Meanwhile, GE's going to be let off the hook for the Hudson and that really really big tax cut they wanted. And so it goes ...
Metrocommute.com is reporting a person under a PATH train at the Christopher Street station. I work about five blocks south of that station, and at about 8:50 I saw a Port Authority police car heading n/b on Hudson Street with lights and sirens, and a number of emergency vehicles to the north around Christopher. I figured there was something going on with PATH. In addition, several co-workers who use PATH aren't in yet.
Dunno if PATH actually uses the 12-9 code ...
Was an attempted suicide. female jumped in front of the train. The person survived
Thursday's Star-Ledger has the story: a man fell off the Christopher Street platform as a train was coming in and landed between the rails, sustaining minor injuries when the first car went over him. The Hoboken - 33rd Street line was tied up for over an hour.
in an effort to improve access for new yorkers to airline travel, the port authority is announcing plans to use their surplus to purchase central park and turn it into an international airport... bringing the airport into midtown manhattan will be a great convenience to new yorkers... heavy opposition to the plan is anticipated from the taxi industry, airport bus industry, and from some people living in apartment houses adjoining the park who are concerned about the increased noise due to arriving and departing flights... however recent tests by the department of environmental projection show that the current noise level on 5th avenue and central park west is almost as high as the noise level on the kennedy runways...
Can't do it. That would mean the subway would run to the airport. That's not allowed in New York City.
They would have to abandon the 60th St and CPW tunnels, and fill them with concrete so noone ever even THINKS of building a subway there anymoe--maybe they'd also demolish the 63rd St. tunnel just in case they have any ideas of putting a station on there. And they'd have to eliminate all IRT stations that are anywhere near Central Airport.
But it's allright. They'd have shuttle busses from the nearest subway station (Broadway-Nassau St) and the PA will dismantle the current airtrain and start thinking about putting one up in Manhattan.
;^D Andrew
Oh! And I forgot: The problem with Broadway-Nassau is that ALL A trains run there. That means a tourist would know exactly which train to get on for the airport--we can't have that!!! So we'll see the first major capital program in 40 years when a new line is built, whereupon some A's continue into Manhattan, while some branch off from there, go under the Hudson River, and make their next stop in Camden, NJ.
HAHAHAHAHAHAH! (maniacal laghter)
:-D Andrew
You're a sick man, Rico.:-)
Help. I live in northern MI but was recently told that the EL structure over Jam Ave still goes to Queens Blvd/my old home station. What is its status. Thanks
The el runs as far as 121 Street, shortly after which it descends, shifts to Archer Av and runs to Parsons/Archer as subway. The elevated structure from beyond 121 Street to 168th was demolished long ago. You can get a feel for it on the current official subway map
Nope. The old el structure exists only as far as the 121 St. station, and about 3 blocks beyond before it turns off Jamaica Ave. to run paralell with the LIRR. Everything east of this point is gone.
I won't bore you with my continued ramblings on why this was a HUGE mistake!
The big mistake was compounded by not creating a track connection between the Jamaica Ave. line and the Queens Blvd. line in the Archer Ave. subway. Limits the ability to transfer equipment between the old BMT eastern division lines and the rest of the system when the Williamsburg Bridge is shut down.
-- Ed Sachs
And at night they could close the lower level platforms if the connection was done South (West) of Sutphin. Much safer.
There's an interesting 4 story building at the SE corner of Jamaica Ave and 165 St. One set of stairs coming off the original 168 St terminus entered this building on the second floor (Jamaica Ave side) and exited at street level (165 St side). There's a furniture store there now. I think the top floor was the control tower for the terminus. Also, the power sub-station at Jamaica Ave & 143 Place now feeds the Archer Ave subway.
The building that you describe did in fact have a control tower in the corner looking down on the tracks and west down Jamaica Ave towards 160th St. In the Afternoons starting around 300pm they would take two cars off of the train in the center tracks and add to a six car train in the station. That way went the train turned back at Broad Street it had 8 cars for the rush hour. During the late evening hours the trains were 3 cars of standards or 4 R-16 that was in the late 50's early 60's
Thanks for the information!
The crew room and dispatcher's office were IIRC on the second floor, needless to say the tower was the highest. I spent a lot of time between runs in that crew room over the years; often peering over the disptcher hoping my next trip would be on an R1-9. Anyone remember disp. Vinny Ferguson? A fellow pipe smoker. He knew I was one M/M who wouldn't look for a dropout with one of them so tried to set me up.
"I won't bore you with my continued ramblings on why this was a HUGE mistake!"
I beg to differ with you on this one. It was actually a BIG improvement. Passengers can now transfer from Brooklyn to Northern Central Queens without much headache. The only concern would be that the transfer has to be made by walking up or downstairs.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
A useless waste of billions of dollars. No new subway service was ever added with this connection. Merely, and older but perfectly adequate elevated line was replaced. And 2nd. Ave still has nothing. Unbelievable.
As I recall, merchants along Jamica Ave. wanted the el torn down. (They may regret it now.) Also, this line was to be the first step in extending service to southeast Queens -- one of many plans derailed in the 70s and 80s, including the 2d Ave. line and the IND Super Express connecting to the 63rd St.tunnel. Yet, the Archer Ave. line may someday be extended as planned, just as the 63rd St. tunnel has now become more than a useless appndage.
I have no problem with the extension of the Queens Blvd. IND into southeast Queens, and the original idea of extending the Archer Ave. line down the LIRR ROW is a sound one. But did the Jamaica Ave. el need to be demolished to do this?
Stupid waste of valuable transit resources.
Demolishing the Jamaica Avenue El wasn't necessarily a bad thing. The el no longer blocks the sun of Jamaica Avenue, it connects directly to the LIRR (the current setup may not be cold/wind proof, but it's precipitation proof).
The problem is it closed over 10 years before the subway opened and it's too short!
Although I no longer live in the Big Apple I can see from the responses to my original question about the EL that it is a sore spot.
I appreicate all of the responses to my initial question as it was my first on the chat. Thanks,my hope for the good of transportation in the city that someone in the TA reads some of the suggestions posted.They should listen to the users.
The 'J' El Could have been extended East From 168 St To Belmont Park Via Jamica Avenue & Hempstead Avenue (The El Would End At Cross Island Parkway(Queens/Nassau County Line Floral Park) With a Walkway to Belmont Park.
The MTA is a state agency and its action have just as much bearing in Nassau County as in the City of New York, they can bring a train across the border.
And knowing the area, the NIMBYism on the Nassau side of the border would not be much more fierce than on the Queens side.
If they MTA can pull of a line (just like I had in my plans) that would run beneath Archer Avenue, Jamaica Avenue and Hempstead Avenue/Turnpike, they would stop short of the border.
I am in total agreement with you viewpoint for the extension of the J to Belmont.
I'd go further, right into the LIRR station of the Racetrack. It would make a great all year terminal for Bus and car drop offs and pick ups.
For Super Service, I'd let the "J" run clockwise to Hempstead. Connect Hempstead to West Hempstead and let it return Via Laurelton and Locust Manor, before resuming its curret line.
The "E" would run counterclockwise, through Southeast Queens, West Hempstead,Hempstead back to Archer Ave, and resume it current service.
A BEAUTIFUL BIG MOTHER LOOP. A double loop if you will , but only oneway for each service.
Bring on the NIMBY's and NAYSAYERS.
avid
"I am in total agreement with you viewpoint for the extension of the J to Belmont."
That will be nice only if they improve the speeds throughout the whole line, add an express station at Woodhaven Blvd and have a separate track travel down Jamaica Avenue for express runs.
N Broadway Line
ASTORIA
It's a personal sore spot for me. I hated busses as a kid, and when the el closed east of Queens Blvd, I was condemned to them.
Even if you didn't hate busses I think making th last 5 minutes of a long established train ride into 20 or 30 by the time you got to the street, wait for a bus, fight traffic, etc. was criminal to the riders. The demolition of the Jamaica end should have waited until the [inferior] replacement service was in order.
"[inferior]"
Bigedirtmanl what does that mean? COME ON! Don't confuse people. Either the inside connection was inferior or superior. MAKE UP YOUR MIND!
The connection is absolutely an improvement to the decrepit J line that went to 168th Street. IT'S WAS SLOW! AND IS SLOW TODAY! BUT THE DIFFERENCE IS, PASSENGERS NOW HAVE A FASTER OPTION! THE E TRAIN!!!
Unless the MTA is willing to speed the J service up, people will continue to choose the E over the J into Manhattan.
N BROADWAY LINE
ASTORIA
That would be my only complaint about the subway replacement--it dosen't quite go as far as the el did. But in fact there is said to be like 3/4 a mile worth of layup track past the "E" terminal where you could put up a station, say at Merrick Blvd.
:-) Andrew
But the line turns south and ends at South Avenue, it does not extend to Merrick Boulevard (the location of the original terminal)
It might have been a form of revenge for all the complaining the merchants did. In the end they got what they wanted: no el, and no business.
In retrospect, why didn't they just finish building everything else except the connector and save that for last?
Maybe poetic justice would be a better way of putting it. IIRC, the merchants thought the el was hurting business. Well, it hurt their business even more after it was gone.
"No new subway service was ever added with this connection."
I really don't understand your logic. Don't you understand that waiting at a subway station is much nicer than waiting at an elevator station? Especially during the time when it's extremely cold and wet outside (LIKE RIGHT NOW!!!). Also, you have to remember, the J line did not connect to anything before they build the E/J tunnel connection. I just can't believe what your writting.
Cost should not factor in improving service. What ever $$$$ it takes, then build it.
"Merely, and older but perfectly adequate elevated line was replaced."
I'm not saying they should've put the whole line inside, but some real improvements need to be made with that very slow J line.
Now J line riders can access midtown Manhttan faster than they did before the connection was put in place. Nothing is wrong with the plan at all, even if meant spending billion of dollars.
I wrote other posts about this subject and believe something drastically need to be done about improving the J Line. IT'S TOO DAMN! SLOW!!!
N BROADWAY LINE
ASTORIA
First test post from my new Gateway PC. Very different from WebTV.
Congratulations Chris!
Now you will be able to print out all of heypaul's posts!
You know, that's a perk I never thought of. Well worth the $3000
LOL
It's a shame you can't print scrolling text :).
You can't? Hmmmm. Never tried. I suppose if you were desperate, you could print the source code.
But, you can print with WebTV, too.
You can also get a scanner for it. But why put gold-plated bumpers on a 1975 Ford Pinto?
Maybe so that you can sit in the living room and be comfortable while surfing, and so that you can watch TV while a page is loading.
So, you can't watch TV with a computer can you?
The computer will require video cards and software etc. normally not included with a new computer.
Only one $65 card, software included.
And the software is also included in Windows 98/Me, what is it called? WebTV for Windows!
For a $3000.00 computer, it doesn't make sense not to include a TV Tuner card. It's the best form of motion picture capture, and incredibly cheap compared to the cost of the rest of the computer. Some MPEG cards (which is required for DVD and is obviously included) come with TV tuners.
My PC is in my bedroom, right next to a 25" stereo TV. No problems watching TV and surfing the next at the same time here.
Yeah! Gateway!
You have a 3,000 dollar Gateway PC too?! Small world.
Yup. Complete with an HP photo-quality printer, CD burner, DVD drive, 75 megs of RAM, and a scanner. I feel like Orville Wright, being handed an F14 Tomcat to play with ...
Complete with an HP photo-quality printer, CD burner, DVD drive, 75 megs of RAM.
That last one is in complete contrast to everything else. How is it even possible to have 75 megs of RAM, let alone so little RAM on such an expensive computer.
How fast is the processor?
I meant gigs, not megs.
1000 MHZ
Then you probably meant 75 GB hard drive, not RAM.
75 GB hard drive??? I don't think a personal computer would even need THAT much! It's 75 megs RAM.
75 GB hard drive??? I don't think a personal computer would even need THAT much! It's 75 megs RAM.
Try to find a $1000 computer with less than 128 MB of RAM.
For one thing, RAM only comes in even numbers, except for the number 1. There were 64 MB, then 96 MB computers, but never 75 MB.
And I have Windows 3.1 guide book from 1993 that gives recommended hard drive sizes. Guess what it recommends for a power user? 600 MB. Computers don't even measure HD size in MB, The OS wouldn't even fit into that small a space!
It's got a 20GB hard drive with a 128MB memory module. I'm not sure how the total of 75 is accounted for, but like I said, I'm a PC newbie in the extreme.
I'm not sure how the total of 75 is accounted for...
I'm guessing that's usable memory after Windows is loaded. Interesting to think about the progress we have made in computing over the past decades - when I first went to work for my former employer, IBM, our primary means of storage was decks of punch cards, although they did have these fancy devices called tape drives that you might get to use if upper management signed a special requisition form. Now, I sit here at my Mac with 128MB of memory, a 350 mHz Motorola processor, and a total of 86 GB of hard drive space at my disposal and I complain about how slow it is and how little space I have to store everything :-) (Time to upgrade to a dual-processor G4 with 1 GB of memory and a pair of 550 mHz Motorolas - if my wife will let me.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm guessing that's usable memory after Windows is loaded
It's extremely unlikely that such a figure would be advertised. How would they figure it out so precisely?
I hit CTRL+ALT+DEL, clicked Task Manager and opened the Performance tab
Physical Memory (K)
Total 130544
Available 49220
System Cache 74592
It seems to me that this system cache is the one that's 75 MB.
An easier way to get the task manager is to right click on the taskbar, it's on the menu.
I have TASKMGR.EXE in my startup group, set to start minimized, so I just click on the processor meter in the system tray to get it.
You should upgrade memory, at around $80 for 256MB you'll see a major diffrerence. Don't forget to adjust the application memory partitions.
Arti
I probably should... Photoshop would run a lot faster that way. But I'll probably go whole hog (sorry, Pork) and upgrade the whole machine, then let my wife have this one (except for the external hard drives) - she's running on a Performa 6200 with 40 meg of memory and a 1 GB hard drive. Of course, that's really all she needs (it's just a word processor to her), so...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, I DO have a 75 gig 7M ultra ATA100 hard drive. And a 256MB memory module. Someone sent me two different manifests with my purchase order. I was reading from the one which was not mine. Looks like some poor schmuck in Baltimore who bought a Gateway Performance 1000 didn't get his manifest.
Current SDRAM pricig is about $.33 per MB. Win'98 fits on about 300 MB
Arti
I don't use Win98 anymore.
C:\WINDOWS contains 933 MB, C:\WINNT contains 460.
My old hard drive (850 MB) wouldn't even fit the OS alone!
[C:\WINDOWS contains 933 MB]
That includes IE cache, Desktop, temp etc and probably the whole win'98 installer. Otherwise around 300-400 MB.
Arti
RAM must be multiple of (at the lowest) 4 (for most personal computers currently existing). And to get something at 76 (closest to 75) you would need 19 at 4 MB each. To get 64, one would need one 64, 2 32s, 4 16s, etc.
For example, when I first got my computer, it had one 8, the store added another to give me 16, and a year ago I bought 2 more 8s to give me 32. I ran out of slots, so to get more I'd have to toss the 4 8s and buy higher density.
75 GB hard drive seems reasonable, I know a few people at school with HDs approaching 40 GB. I still would rather have it separated into several drives, the bigger the drive the more you'll loose with a failure.
Oh yeah, sorry I wasn't thinking that RAM is usually in multiples of 4 ... like 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, etc.
A friend of mine has 40 MB of RAM, but that's because her computer detects her memory configuration as having 32 MB + 8 MB... despite the "8 MB" one is supposed to be a "64 MB" chip. And yes, she is not a computer hardware expert. She should have gotten 2 of the same.
My computer has 70 GB. The hard drive that came with the computer has 30 GB, and then another 40 GB hard drive is partitioned into 3 drives with 12.7 GB each. Yeah, 12.7 times 3 isn't 40, but that's just the way it is.
BTW, my first computer was a 386-20 MHz with 4 MB of RAM and 100 MB hard drive. That was eons ago. Now I got a PIII-667 MHz with 128 MB RAM.
My PC could kick your PC's you know what...LOL
If I knew how to use it ...
75 gigs might suffice when MS Office 2001 comes out in 2002. :)
Nooo... Office 2001 is for Macs. Office 2002 is scheduled for 2002 and is for PCs.
I sit corrected ... pins and noodles anticipation factor now kicking in. :)
OMG, you spent 3K (1" of 2nd Ave subway) on a computer!!
Arti
3K wouldn't even cover the cost of one millimeter....LOL
I believe that's Chris' useable RAM if the computer uses some of his SDRAM for Video like how Compaqs and HP's do instead of installing a separate video card w/it's own memory. (i.e. AGP & PCI cards)
Gateways don't have shared memory between Video and System RAM.
Does your computer have an Intel Pentium III or Pentium 4 processor or is it an AMD processor? I have a Dell Dimension 4100 with an Intel Pentium III 800MHz processor. As Karl B said you can now print out all of heypaul's postings. heypaul is one of the funniest people who puts postings on subtalk.
BMTJeff
The Pentium 4 uses RDRAM, not SDRAM. So it would have to be the PIII or Athlon.
And I totally missed the obvious: The slowest speed of the P4 is 1.3 GHz!
Pork:
I think that you're right though the slowest Pentium 4 that Dell has offered runs at 1.4 GHz
BMTJeff
AMD Athlon processor, 1000Mhz
How much do they spend on roads? Air traffic control and airports?
Well, now that Bud Schulster is gone...
Northbound on a Lexington Avenue local this morning, we came up behind a train of Redbirds dead north of 103 St. Station. As we stayed in the station, we heard the conversation of the crew of (I think) 11:33 out of Brooklyn Bridge trying to learn why they went into emergency. They found a blue plastic milk crate on the tracks that tripped the brakes. During the 20 minute delay, at least one #6 passed us as express. Up here in Parkchester now (adjacent to the Parkchester library and its internet terminals), an interesting mixture of Redbirds, Bombardiers, and new trains are in service.
>They spend $23 BILLION on AMTRAK and yet it only carries one half of
>one percent of all interstate traffic.
It's your own fault not to make use of a perfectly good service that is being offered. It is true that Amtrak do have their fair share of rude attendents (Chicago Crewbase heads up) and that they do run late quite frequently (CSX, whose own intermodals average all of 23mph, heads up) ~ but it's a perfectly good service if you are looking for a good train ride perhaps to visit relatives or go to/from college, Amtrak is the one for you. For example if you had to drive from Illionis to Texas, it would probably take you at least one layover - not with Amtrak, the journey time is offered is exactly 25 hours.
>AMTRAK needs to focus strictly on the corridors so they can improve
>service AND make a profit (Oh! The horror) .
Focussing on the corridors? Yes, the corridors is where they do best, and funny enough, also where they own the infrastructure. If they are senseless enough to trim service down to just the NEC, they will find out painfully what British Rail found out under Dr Beeching in the 1960s. I rest my case. (Look up Beeching Cuts in your World Railroad History textbook).
Lexcie
We have all come up with some grand ideas for the 100th Anniversary.
Where will the funds come from to finance all of this.
Is there a chance that there will be a new 2nd Ave Subway bond issue that can be borrowed from?
(We have all come up with some grand ideas for the 100th Anniversary.
Where will the funds come from to finance all of this. Is there a chance that there will be a new 2nd Ave Subway bond issue that can be borrowed from?)
My idea was to produce a series of four NY region rail transit maps, 1904, 1954, 2004...and 2054. This can be financed by the sweat equity of MTA, NYCT, City Planning, and RPA employees, assisted by advocates and hobbyists like ourselves, and produced using MTA and NYCT computer equipment. Afterward, the maps could be sold. I'd say that's an affordable project. Perhaps if the maps made people think about 2054, there WOULD BE a 2nd Avenue Subway.
Behind the lines, I'd like to see light shades to denote population density (I could help with this), along with iso-lines to show the time required to travel to the Manhattan CBD (schedules could be used). Pre-subway els would be one line shade, subways and their elevated extensions another, electrified commuter/intercity rail a third, and non-electrified commuter/inter-city rail a fourth. Counties could be expanded/shrunk on cartogram principles, in order to show the whole region on one page (I have an example at home).
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/01/17/quake.newyork.02.reut/index.html
Anyone feel anything? Would it interfere with subways?
Nothing on the subways, I ride the Dand I was at 125 st at the time of the Earthquake all we (the passengers) felt nothing and that was it. They said it was cenetered around the mayor's house. Which on the East Side right? So maybe lexington ave riders felt it. Just imagine a speeding R-62 4 train during an earthquake, can you say ride from heck? Anyone wanna ride that train if we knew it was gonna happen?
Christopher Rivera
I was waiting for the 7 train at Vernon-Jackson in LIC when the quake struck. It sounded like a explosion occurred in the station as the 7 train pulled into the station. I decided to wait for the next train just in case. No annoucements were made and the trains were still running. I got on the next train and made it work without any problems. I didn't find out about quake until later on at work. It was a weird feeling.
Hey, Paul! I thought you'd have felt it being that you're up in Greenpoint and the epicenter was supposedly Long Island City.
I was awake at 7:30, but noticed nothing. But that's moot since I'm all the way south in Canarsie (the boonies of Brooklyn).
BMTman
One interesting thing about this quake-ette is that it may have been caused by the fault running along 125th Street in Manhattan - the same fault that obliged the builders of the original IRT to put the line across 125th on a viaduct.
Since my wife works in LIC, she was hit with another quake which occurred about 10 mins later. I guess it was a aftershock.
But yes, I felt it alright.
i hope they don't get any worse than this and i hope they don't come back. those things are scary. imagine if this thing were to happen at lets say 4.0. there would be a domino effect throughout the city with these tall buildings.
Comments from a seismologist about how the NYC subway would fare in a moderate earthquake
"The tunnels would snap like glass tubes"
So, if NYC was hit by a stronger earthquake, like a 4 or 5, would there be extensive damage to the system?
Your buddy is right based on how standard tunnel construction is done. However, there are two things that make NYC's tunnels a bit safer than would be expected. First, they're mainly cut and cover in most circumstances and secondly, they run *IN* the fault lines. There would be a good amount of damage in a severe earthquake, but not catastrophic. I wouldn't want to be in the river crossings at the time though. The els though would need to lean on buildings to stay up.
Seismologically speaking though, that earthquake is *GOOD* news for the city. The entire area is extremely active, much like upstate where there are routine earthquakes. You guys FELT this one because it was a bit bigger than usual. Manhattan sees 3 or 4 a year on average, usually way under 2.0 Richter. You can tell when they happen only when bricks land on the sidewalk.
There isn't a whole lot of movement since the Atlantic plate is way out in the ocean and the ground movements in the northeast TEND to be very frequent and thus small. Out in Calley, they're RIGHT ON the edge of the plate and movements don't happen very often. As a result, when somehting lets loose, the ground has an awful lot of catching up to do and will move several inches in a biggie quake. We get 3's and 4's every year up here in Albany. Ain't no big thang ...
If you really want to see the effects out in California, take Highway 14 up to Palmdale and look at "The Cut" -- the spot where the San Andreas Fault crosses the road. Whenever you see a rock cut on the Thruway or any other road, the lines of sedement usually are in a straight line, though they may be angled up and down. The rock cut at the San Andreas fault the lines of sedement look like a plate of spaghetti after someone's attacked it with a fork.
I've seen many pictures of it. But out west there, you're dealing with subduction of the Pacific plate directly under you and this "turn down" creates bizarre pressures and movements. NYC by comparison isn't at the edge of a plate so it's generally vertical fractures and "crowning" that happens here ... ground literally moves up rather than sideways. Manhattan itself is actually a hollow DOME of ignious rock that's several miles thick. Quartz, Granite, Schist and Feldspar.
Geologically speaking, Manhattan and environs is boring. :)
The San Andreas fault is a transform fault, the plates move sideways.
Off Cape Mendocino in Northern California, the San Andreas fault makes way for the Cascadia Trench, which is where the Gorda and Juan De Fuca plates are pushed by the Pacific plate under the North American.
Yeah, Manhattan hasn't seen much tectonic excitement since North America rammed into Europe and Africa 200 million-plus years ago to form the old Pangea supercontinent. Back then you could transfer at Jamaica Center directly to the London Underground.
Mark Michalovic
Could you yse a transfer or did it require a full new fare.
No you couldn't, England is much further north. But you could transfer to the metro in Lisbon (is there one?).
Yes, there is a metro in Lisbon, and it's pretty nifty looking from the pictures I've seen at MetroPlanet (www.metropla.net)
Mark
All of the east coast is pretty boring geologically. Outside of a few anomilies like Stone Mountain, Ga., or the New Madrid Fault, ou've got to go out at least to the eastern edge of the Rockies (did you know New Meixco has a rift valley just like eastern Africa?) before things get interesting.
However, as inrteresting as a magnitude of very active fault likes -- or even a hot spot like beneath Yellowstone National Park -- would make things on the East Coast, I'm sure a majority of citizens will continue to settle for "boring," and even if you throw in the other forces of nature (hurricanes, tonadoes, hailstorms, snowstorms) New York City is one of the most boring places on Earth for above-ground or below-ground phenomina, thank God.
I thought granite was metamorphic. Its made from undersea clay subjected to extreme pressure for millions of years.
Actually, granite is igneous, magma that solidifies underground. So at one time, there was some vulcanism under Manhattan.
Mark Michalovic
Granite was recently proved to NOT be solitified magma. Its seafloor clay that has been pulled deep under at a subduction zone and then turned into granite with the heat and pressure. If you take clay, add salt water and then put in a powerful press you can create granite. They've done it in Germany. There's also a road cut in France where you can see all the steps in the transition from clay to granite. I took an FYI geology class and our professor was quite vocal on the subject. He's some old Dutch guy who been wandering around CT for 43 years finding dinosaur tracks and helping ordinary people with their geology problems.
Quartzite, slate, and marble are metamorphic rocks, having changed, respectively, from sandstone, shale, and limestone.
And Granite has changed from clay hydrated with a salt solution.
So what would happen to river tunnels in an earthquake?? (I'm afraid to hear the answer!)
Since they're rigid tubes, chances are they'll get wet. The reference to "snap like a glass tube" by a previous poster is likely. But again, the likelihood of a tremblor large enough to snap the steel is VERY slim. Chances are they'd leak a little more than they already are at worst.
The NYC subway tunnels might develop cracks, but those would likley force the riverbed silt into the tunnels, which would be patchable. The cast iron PATH tunnels would be the ones I would worry about as far as being able to quickly repair them for return to service goes.
Up here on the Albany TV stations, word as that it was a 2.4 Richter equivalent and was epicentered not at 125th St as first claimed but directly under Gracie Mansion on the upper east side. Well, as Dave Letterman would say, "sometimes they just write themselves" ...
Is it possible that Hizzoner and Hizhunny "made the earth move" in the passionate throes of "the body politic" and if so are NYC residents happier that he's doing it to her instead of you?
Seriously, I'm surprised there weren't a lot of buildings shedding masonry. Dunno if you guys know this or not, but 14th St is a major fault as well but the biggest one of them all is this street called "Broadway" that runs under the harbor and right up to where it meets the Ramapo fault under the Indian Point power plants in Buchanan. Funny how most of the subways were dug right *IN* the faultlines themselves. There are several other faults which cross manhattan east/west but Broadway is the only north south one on the island. The others follow the TPNJ, crossing the Hudson at Indian Point.
Yes, 96th Street is another fault line.
Funny thing about Indian Point and other nuke reactors: many happen to be on or near fault lines because of their dependence on a constant flow of running water to cool the core. How is the constant flow of running water (a river) related to the faults: simple, most rivers are created by the gap between two (or more) land masses -- urgo these are geological 'stress points' in the earth.
BMTman
Not to mention that the digging is a whole lot easier along the edges. The Broadway fault though is probably one of the safest places to be in the city if a big one came. Fortunately for New York City though, as long as the ground moves in small doses as it has since the late 1800's, the chances of a "big one" are extremely slim. Back somewhere around 1878 or so, New York City had a whopper. Didn't make much difference though since most of the buildings destroyed were only 2 or 3 stories high. And relax folks, there had been next to no seismic activity prior to it according to what little records there are from the time. No movement for a long while is the secret to the biggies. Constant movement is good and NYC has had pretty constant small movements.
That's correct. Wasn't there movememt of as much as 21 feet during the 1964 Alaska quake? That was a whale of a whopper, 8.6 on the Richter scale, IIRC.
That small a quake is unlikely to do anything more than maybe rattle windows and dishes. If someone were where it could be felt, it mostly likely wasn't more than a heavy truck passing. I'm a CA native, and we seldom pay attention to anything below a 4.5...a 2.5 wouldn't even get a mention.
But remember that most buildings on the east coast aren't designed to withstand any kind of earthquake. A 4.5 might not do anything in CA, but it could damage a lot over here.
Also, I read once that because of local geology an earthquake here has the effect of a CA quake one magnitude larger.
A 4.5 in NYC wouldn't likely cause major damage. Stuff could come off shelves and walls, some walls/floors might develop cracks, and poorly-maintained masonry might crack or collapse, but large scale structural failure is unlikely. Nearly every large structure that was erected in the 20th century is designed to withstand significant, continual stress from wind and induced vibration (i.e., vehicular traffic, subways).
I wouldn't worry until a 5 or 6, which could cause considerable (if not significant) damage to the older unreinforced masonry buildings like those prewars on Park Av and the 6-stories all over Brooklyn and Queens. I'd be very concerned with Brooklyn and Queens because lots of building was done on landfill, which turns into pudding during a strong quake and anything on it is likely to lose integrity (SF Marina District, 1989). The Brooklyn Bridge could be in big trouble because the Manhattan side isn't anchored in bedrock. The subway tunnels would probably make it through, but would need thorough structural evaluations before continuing to run service.
Eastern quakes may not have the potential of Western ones, but because the ground in the east transmits quakes over larger areas and building codes only began considering seismic effects since the 1980s, there's greater potential for damage. However, I'm more concerned about places like Memphis or St. Louis or Charleston SC. Those areas are sitting ducks.
Look at all of the quakes that have happened in Calif in the last week.
I could create a 2.5 just by dropping the lid ont he toilet seat!!!!
I think the quake was due to some bizarre experiments being conducted in Sheepshead Bay...something about resonance frequencies, if my hunch is right...
BMTman
I heard it was some railfan playing the tape of an R-10 making the express run down CPW on one of those SUV disco mobiles.
I'd like to get my hands on a copy of that tape. All I would need is a subwoofer; I've already got a 500-watt power amp.
I have an interesting tape that was made in the 1950's. A high quality (for that time) stereo recorder and microphones were placed 150 feet south of the 59th Street station on the northbound A & D trains. The resulting recording is a collection of R1-9s and the sound of the switch iron clanging back and forth. This accounts for 5 minutes of the tape, the rest (10 minutes) was recorded in the station. It's really cool, it was purchased by my Uncle when it first came out on open reel tape he gave it to me before he died. It was put out by Sonotape Corporation.
Steve, this might interest you. I have an tape that was made in the 1950's. A high quality (for that time) stereo recorder and microphones were placed 150 feet south of the 59th Street station on the northbound A & D trains. The
resulting recording is a collection of R1-9,10s and the sound of the switch iron clanging back and forth. This accounts for 5 minutes of the tape, the rest (10 minutes) was recorded in the station. It's really cool, it was purchased by my Uncle when it first came out on open reel tape he gave it to me before he died. It was put out by Sonotape Corporation.
Yes, indeed. Thanks for sharing that bit of info. Can you dub it onto cassette? If not, I have an open reel deck and can do so. Email me privately and we can discuss the details.
Let me rephrase that. If needed, I can dub the open reel tape onto cassette for myself and return it to you, if you wish.
As many Subtalkers might note, I have long been in the habit of denigrating New York's economy and rhapsodizing about the glories and prosperity of the Sunbelt. While one robin does not a spring make, to continue with the avian metaphors, it is worth noting that today's Federal Reserve "beige book" (an anecdotal but highly reliable survey of nationwide economic conditions) shows that the New York Fed district was just about the strongest one in the whole nation during the generally weak month of December. While the report noted some signs of softening, especially in manufacturing and trucking, New York and San Francisco were the only districts out of 12 to show continuing economic growth. Most of the others were at or near stagnation. In particular, New York and San Francisco were the only districts where the housing market remained strong, and New York was the only one in which retail sales exceeded forecasts. New York was one of the very few in which labor shortages are severe. For the record, the New York Fed includes New York, New Jersey and SW Connecticut.
Now, if something could be done about New York's obscenely high unemployment rate ...
(Now, if something could be done about New York's obscenely high unemployment rate ...)
Evidently, according to Mr. Pataki, New York City's unemployment rate is not a problem, while Upstate's is. Perhaps because the BLS includes everyone with human DNA in their statistics, whereas to Pataki only whites count as people. Whites are definately better off in NYC than Upstate. Including everyone, however, Brooklyn and the Bronx make Upstate seem like Silicon Valley.
Which brings up an interesting point. NYC's UNEMPLOYMENT rate is now pretty good, but its SHARE OF ADULTS employed is low. Should all those remaining on welfare be considered unemployable regardless of economic conditions, or does NYC still have a shortage of McJobs?
Evidently, according to Mr. Pataki, New York City's unemployment rate is not a problem, while Upstate's is. Perhaps because the BLS includes everyone with human DNA in their statistics, whereas to Pataki only whites count as people. Whites are definately better off in NYC than Upstate. Including everyone, however, Brooklyn and the Bronx make Upstate seem like Silicon Valley.
The Governor is not THAT callous. Minority unemployment rates almost always are higher than the rate among whites regardless of location or economic conditions. It's similar to the way younger people have higher unemployment rates than do their elders, and moreover is a problem that seems to defy solution. I'll give Pataki the benefit of the doubt and interpret his statements as meaning that NYC's unemployment rate is the best that can be expected given the city's ethnic breakdown. I do not agree with that attitude, there certainly is room for improvement, but at least he is not being totally dismissive of the problem.
Which brings up an interesting point. NYC's UNEMPLOYMENT rate is now pretty good, but its SHARE OF ADULTS employed is low. Should all those remaining on welfare be considered unemployable regardless of economic conditions, or does NYC still have a shortage of McJobs?
That brings up a point I've made before. If NYC's share of adults in the labor force rose to the national average, or even just to the average for all large cities, its already-too-high unemployment rate would get even worse, probably into the double digits. Whether that's due to unemployability or a shortage of low-end jobs, I'm not sure. But clearly it's a problem that'll have to be addressed before long.
(That brings up a point I've made before. If NYC's share of adults in the labor force rose to the national average, or even just to
the average for all large cities, its already-too-high unemployment rate would get even worse, probably into the double digits.
Whether that's due to unemployability or a shortage of low-end jobs, I'm not sure. But clearly it's a problem that'll have to be
addressed before long.)
How about before Jan 1, 2002, when the federal government will cut off (it appears, based on Giuliani's State of the City Message) 46,000 adults and their children from welfare, removing the 50 percent that the feds contribute toward their care, and putting them on the state and city's books? It's not the threat it might be, given that money paid to actual poor people only accounts for 10 percent of health and welfare spending, but it will hurt.
Well !! the unemployment rate will rise " high " soon ! ( not just the first-time-unemployment seeking unemployment UI benifits etc.
Then when the economy goes into the toilet & gets flushed out ....
Clintons 1996 " welfare-cutoff-to-homelessness-&-hunger " will come
home to roost! Already FOOD BANKS are being max(ed) out now!!
The future does not look good at all for most of the working class people !
Also i guess not a whole lot of money leftover for new transt rail
cars & buses !! The MFG. industry has gone under a long time ago!!
So let me see if I get your logic:
By employing people who were on welfare we are actualy RAISING the UNemployment rates.
Makes total and complete sense [sic].
So let me see if I get your logic:
By employing people who were on welfare we are actualy RAISING the UNemployment rates.
Makes total and complete sense [sic].
While it gags me to say so, Salaamallah is right, sort of. People who are not working count toward the unemployment numbers only if they are actively looking for work. People who aren't working and aren't looking for work - welfare recipients, skells, those in the underground economy, etc. - bascially fall through the cracks and aren't counted in the statistics. As a result, if as a result of welfare reform many welfare recipients leave the rolls and enter the job market, the unemployment rate is bound to increase. I think that's the point he was trying to make.
Of course, as former welfare recipients find jobs, the unemployment rate will decrease.
wrong again even when you are still looking for work while unemployed you fall off the ""first time unemployment""status & then you & others dissapear completely off the national picture (thanks to ronald regan)
it used to be umemployed were " out of work folk "
welfare was not reformed!!
salaam, you are off-topic and from the unofficial monitor of off-topic posting, this is unacceptable! However, in your last post it was clinton's fault. In this post it was reagan's fault. I hate to admit it but I felt better when I thought you were consumed by a rolling black-out.
wrong !! not what i was saying. at all!!sorry if you misunderstood!!
Maybe if you tried to post complete sentences, you might be understood better.
-Hank
hank, I'm really tired of people picking on salaam, just because he is grammatically challanged. Have some pity. Just think, if we find his posts hard to understand, imagine how hard he finds it to understand posts that are grammatically correct..
Maybee food would be cheaper if the Feds stoped paying farmers to destroy it.
Today at 8:25 AM SLE commuter train 3604 traveling at 80 mph with 3 crew and 2 passengers struck a 6'x4' boulder that had been placed on the tracks. There was extensive underside damage to the NH GP-40 and 3 coaches and the train was stranded near Branford CT. The second main line track remained open. Amtrak should thank its lucky stars because the next train to pass that location would have been an ACELA Express traveling 120 mph.
One of the 2 passengers had some neck pain and was evacuated an another Amtrak train to New Haven because EMS could not reach the remote accident site.
Almost makes you wonder if the boulder was meant for Acela. I'm not familiar with the area in question; I assume it's a location where the boulder could not have simply fallen down off an unstable hillside above and landed on the tracks?
-- David
Chicago, IL
The source where I got the story from said that Amtrak suspected sabotage. Although there are many rock cuts on the Shore Line I assume that investigators determined that the location of the rock was suspect.
Who can be arsed to move a boulder that size? - you need a crane, easier to dump a stolen car on the track. Question 2 - who would know that Acela is the next train due? You guys are sure paranoid. I call this 'natural accident'.
Lexcie
This sounds like one of the highway or stone & gravel divider/wall stones ... usually made of concrete. If it was on a hill near the tracks & the bank was loose on the track side it could have either fallen by itself (too much rock/gravel on the other side), or some kids could have undermined it enough to get it to roll down the hill.
If it was kids there should be foot prints.
Mr t__:^)
*One of the 2 passengers had some neck pain and was evacuated an another Amtrak train to New Haven because EMS could not reach the remote accident site. ***
only two passengers on the train?
SLE basically runs a peak direction only service. Instead of running deadhead trains back to the peak origin they let passengers, if any, on board. After all there's no point in turning down a fare. The train was heading east at 8:25 in the AM. No wonder the crew outnumbered the passengers.
Am I right in reading a 6 foot by 4 foot boulder?
That's a BIG rock.
6 inches by 4 inches would sound better, but that small of a rock should have no affect on a train.
I checked the article again and its confirmed 6 by 4 feet. No word on height or shape.
Is this article online somewhere so that we can check it out? I checked the New York Times website, but found no mention of the incident. NY Times is pretty good about updating their website with breaking news.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It was on Eastern Rail News, a paid subscription service. (www.eastrailnews.com) They were getting mad about ppl crossposting from their news updates so now I can only paraphrase.
4 by 6 foot rocks don't exactly lend themselfs to easy moving. I'd assume that such a rock would weigh at least 2000 lbs, probbably more.
Not something you can cart around in a car , suv, or pickup.
You could, but you'd need a forklift ore a front-end loader to move it. I doubt someone placed the rock intentionally. But it goes to show that they need a slide fence, especially with Acela.
-Hank
Alright, lets get our whips and flog the ^%%^&*%*^& out of those kids that put the boulder there!!
Ain't kids, John - with a 6' X 4' boulder weighing in around 2000 pounds or more, it would take some heavy machinery to extract and move. Not exactly kid stuff.
Unless kids were able to pop a boulder out of a rock wall and onto the tracks.
Not a boulder weighing a ton or more, unless the kids know Clark Kent.
Simply using wet wooden wedges in the right places kids can pop a huge rock out of a wall and cause it to fall on the track.
Too much like work. Kids avoid really hard work like the plague.
This really does beg the question about how the boulder did get to its location on the track.
Have they inspected the area and looked for any trail or marks on the ground or objects nearby that could be followed to determine where the boulder originated? This in turn might shed some light on whether or not it rolled after falling on its own or if it had some "assistance" of some sort in getting to its location on the tracks.
-Robert King
always the kids with you aint it,
Yeah, thanks. I'm always trying to point out these idiots who just love to demonize youth.
Adults don't have the time to do this shit. They are too busy working.
His green eyes scanned the horizon. His companion was doing the same. Neither saw anything of interest.
The bigger of the two flicked his scale covere tail back and forth in an attempt to stave off boredom. The smaller of the two let his tail massage the boney plate near his right ear. Occasionaly a forked tounge would issue forth and test the air, nothing og interest.
It was beginning to grow darker and cooler. The bigger one ,nodded his head in the direction of the distant hills. Both moved off, cautiously looking from side to side. When they were sure they were in no danger, they move off swiftly. As they approached their lair the spotted one of the parents. She made a motion with her forearm to encourage swiftness.
They all went thru the entrance in single file.
The bigger of the two asked, "Whats for supper, Mom?"
She responded with "Where were you two?"
"Across the tracks." said the smaller one.
"Hang up yor coat, and wash your claws before you eat!"
the both said "Okay"
"What were you doing by the tracks?" the parent said.
"Watching the Accela go by"
The parent said,"Thats nice"
"Demonds! Don't you just love them!" The parent thought will she tore the water buffalo apart.
avid
Sounds like Komodo Dragons (monitor lizards) to me.
Close. Monitor Kidzards.
avid
Kids should be monitored.
I read an article about how "big mommy" and "big daddy" are trying to be "big brother."
I can understand nanny cams, but once a child is old enough to stay home alone, it's abominable to use surveillance tools like that. If the child isn't old enough to remain unmonitored, than don't take any adult humans out of the house.
This kind of surveillance shouldn't be shunned, it should be BANNED.
Most kids are smart enough to find and disable any such cameras. Trying to outsmart/outmanuver your kids is an ongoing game that all parents will eventually loose.
Some kids I'm familiar with would take the video input to the VCR and hook it to a satellite dish and feed XXXPORNOXXX into it or something
Here, kiddy-kitty.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey, great story Sould you write some more along this plot line? What are Demonds? Where did they get a watter buffalo in Connecticut?
The Demonds,
They were the new family on the block. Recent arrivls to the Connecticut area.
Some thought they were from a foriegn country, aliens. They had a slight accent, but it seemed to defy being identified.
To most , it seemed they were towards the lower end of the economic scale. That didn't make them bad neighbors. They were , well they were just different, if you know what I mean.
The father was never seen or around much. The mother was a little over weight, the young ones were all loners. They just didn't fit in with their peers. they consumed a lot of the cheaper cuts of meat. The strange thing is they LIKED those cuts, especially the type that had a lot of bones and marrow. They always had whole fish, never fillets. I guess it takes all kinds.
There was a notice from the childrens petting zoo. It seems a number of animals had escaped. Authorities are still searching. There is no danger to the public.
A noted team of investigators will be arriving from Brooklyn N.Y. to head the search. A Mr. BMTman and his partner a Mr. heypaul.
The search will center near the Rail Road tracks.
avid
You mean the Railroad tracks. Only the LIRR is a Rail Road. Keep writing, this little story is cool. I want to find out how the rock got there.
Please hang in there . My Cartoon show just went off. Now I'll have to think.
avid
Dispite the down pour, the investigaors from Brooklyn went to the secene of the Accident.
With the help of a grumbling crew of MOW workers they were able to examine the huge slab of rock that caused the damage to the commuter train.
When the slab was turned over, it revealed a chaulk written Paragraph.
There were refrences to pages and paragraphs it various text books.
After making a photographic copy of the slab, Mr BMTman asked the foreman of the crew where the nearest school was.
It turned out the school, THE Franklyn Rutledge Wilks Booth Memorial Trade School was only 1.5 miles away.
Mr. BMTman and Mr. heypaul truged through the rain to the school.
They went to the principles office, Ms. Livinia Aquabovinus.
She was nowhere to be found. She hadn't come to school that day, nor did she answer her phone.
They asked the secratary if anything unusual happened that week. She answered "NO. Just the usual vandalism. Broken windows, food fights and one stolen section of the blackboard from one of the class rooms.
Another deadend, thought the team of investigaters.
With that they went to find a soup kitchen for lunch. They forgot were they were. Instead they wound up in West Brooke at some place that was famous for its Clamhash and poached eggs.
avid
>>>Clamhash and poached eggs. <<<
SOUNDS delish!
Peace,
ANDEE
PS--nice meeting you the other day.
There really is such a place. Its Family run, and the big deal is to go to this place Sundays for brunch after church services of your choice. I'm not positive on the town . It my be the next one or two heading East toward Croton Ct. I understand a lot of celibrants go there after the bars close on Friday and Saturday nites. The memory is still a little fuzzy.
It was my pleasure.
avid
Amazing, an internet search for Clamhash only turned up three results :). This must be it, from the Old Saybrook Dining Guide:
PAT'S KOUNTRY KITCHEN - Voted Connecticut's Best Family Dining 4 years running. Serving Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner & Cocktails 7 Days a week 7 AM to 9 PM. Established by the Brink Family in 1973, our decor is Antiques and Country Kitchen gadgets, Children eat with giant bear while viewing our spectral collection of Artist Teddy Bears. Seafood, Meats & Produce Delivered Daily. Feast on our 20+ Homemade Pies, Soups and Daily Specials From $3 - $15. Try our Famous Clam Hash, Red Flannel Hash and Visit our Country Gift Shop Located Across the Street. Unique and not to be missed.
70 Mill Rock Road, at Route 154, Saybrook
(860) 388-4784 FAX: (860) 388-6669
What's Red Flannel Hash? Made of cotton? Sounds like a good 3/4 Tom Crew hangout. The other two finds were a restaurant in Seattle, and an online cookbook.
BINGO, YOU WIN FIRST PRIZE!
AND SECOND PRIZE.
First prize for the correct location, name and all that. YOU and a companion of your choice get to join the "Between the Stations Club"
ni the famouse "heypaul motormans cab"
Second prize will arrive by mail.
The clam hash is really Good. I haven't a clue as to whats in Red Flannel Hash.
It's a very family,family type dinner. It's in a hugh white building that could have been a bording house of hotel years and years back.
If you like clams, or are adventureous or are, drunk. Try some.
avid
First prize for the correct location, name and all that. YOU and a companion of your choice get to join the "Between the Stations Club"
ni the famouse "heypaul motormans cab"
Oh, no!!
Second prize will arrive by mail.
Lemme guess, it's an envelope full of clamhash? :D
OK ... you've all taunted me ENOUGH dammit ... it's sheet or get off the brake handle time ... does ANYONE actually have a PICTURE of Heypaul's "cab in a closet?" And if so, why has it NOT been posted to one of the IND car roster pages here? Lez go meats!
Inquiring mines knead to sea ...
Here it is,
HEYPAULS R1/9 CAB
Peace,
ANDEE
Aha! So "Plunk your magic twanger" is a euphemism for "put the controller into Multiple."
Hiya kids, hiya hiya, ah - ah - ah! :)
Wow ... I've just popped a stiffie ... That's pretty damned good animatronics.
Heypaul! Can I have your baby? Heh.
Mr. heypaul studied the image from Mr. BMTman camera, the display was quite clear.
heypaul frowned so hard, he was on the verge of a headache.
Mr BMTman asked him what was wrong.
heypaul showed him the image. The assignement read. "Read chapters 11-12 and answer the odd numbered question at the end of Chapter 12 of "Reptilia/Mammalia Transmutation for Fun and Profit.
BMTman said "That sounds like the old TMT line. The one with the Middle Vs on Turtle Avenue.
That the ticket! said heypaul.
The asked the witress to put the remaining Clamhash and Poached eggs in a Doggie bag , paid the check and headed back to the scene of the accident.
avid
With the clamhash safely tucked away in those cute folding cartons, Mr BMTman and heypaul paid their check and briefly argued over how little to leave for a tip.
As they made there exit, heypaul helped himself to several books of matches for his collection and trading at matchbook shows. Mr BMTman scooped up a big handful of those jellycentered mints and an ample supply of toothpicks.
They made good time back to the accident scene. It was down hill,with the wind and BMTmans turn to peddle. The Columbia Roadmaster was humming when they reached the site.
The site was deserted, except for the flagman who was removing the last of the warning signals.
When the investigators inquired as to where everyone went, they were told the rail road Dick went to the Trade school.
Off the duo went. They didn't want to be left out.
The burly armed school security guard met them at the door. The guard directed them to Ms Piersonknipples class room. The room were the blackboard had been removed from.
The class was empty except for the MOW crew, the rail road Dick, and Ms.Piersonknipple.
Ms. Piersonknipple greated the investigators with a big toothie smile. If she smiled any more , she would have gotten lipstick on her ears. She prolonged her handshake with heypauled. BMTman grunted something unintelligible about nibbles.
He was corrected with "PIERSONKNIPPLE", by the teacher.
All of the students were out to lunch except the two new students, the loners.
heypaul, after prying his hand free from the teacher went to the students. He greeted them with "Wassssssup!"
They just stared at him, then their eyes went to the Doggie bag with the picture of the scampering puppy printed on it.
One student started to droole.
heypual asked if they were hungry.
They said they were always hungry!
heypaul asked if they would like this,as he held up the doggie bag.
Sure! They replied, we love them!
heypaul handed over the doggie bags, and watched them eat. It seemed they had some minor difficulty chewing. They didn't grind their food.
They just chewed up and down. The eggs and clamhash and some droole dribbled a little out of their mouths as they ate. They wiped the droole,the clamhash and the runie egg yolk on their sleeves.
This doesn't taste like doggie! the older one said. The younger one asked for Oyster Crackers.
Thats only at the dinner in Oyster Bay, a different railroad.
The two students made short work of the cartons of clamhash and started licking the insides with a very fast and very black tounge.
BMTman saw this and thought, "That kidd will do alright!"
avid
It seemed the Authorities were determined to be P.C. and not persue the foreignors.
The weather, the weather. They were going to blame the weather. Like the wind took it.
A light bulb slamed on in heypauls head.
Of course, the changes in the temperature , warmer , colder. It all fit. It was those slimmey lizzard gizzard brats. It gets warmer, those punks get more active, almost hyper. It gets colder, they slow down, get lethargic. Periods of activity and lethargy. It had to be them. Normal kids ain't like that! Are they? And they eat like slobs and are rude and impolite. Normal kids aint like that! Are they?
BMTman nudged heypaul. He showed him his latest copy of "Victorias Secret Catologue" . I have to get back to the city and do some Valentine shopping!
Me Too! said heypaul
Off they went to their next adventure.
avid
Avid,
Your display of twisted humor may irritate heypaul bigtime. Twisted humor is his forte and copycats will be dealt with. That's why we stand clear and I don't mean of the closing doors !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I have, well not actually touched, but been the target of his RATH.
I must admit it's a huge RATH.
avid
Clam hash?? EWWWWWW!!! I think I'd rather stick to elm bark. As for poached eggs, I'm allergic to all of 'em.
wayne
Perhaps you know of someone who has payback coming, a batchlor party for a deserving Curr.
avid
Sure. Just like the ones who fake collisions for insurance scams.
-Hank
Maybe the guy who "hurt his neck" was planning on suing and had someone, perhaps a neighbor, friend, or other crane-owning citizen put the thing there for him?
I don't know, I think it's more of a whip fetish. 8-0
Peace,
ANDEE
The area in question has some pritty sharp curves, so it could very well be sabotage. If it was Rock Neck where the track cut thru rock then it might be a loose one came out of the wall.
Mr t__:^)
COULD BE EROSION TOO
Peace,
ANDEE
I ask.
Is this area one or two tracks?
If two two tracks, how come nobody noticed it from the Westbound side?
Could the rock have originated from a cut? If so the recent weather of snow,freezing temperatures, thawing, freezing again could have forced open cracks.
If kids are the culprets, be careful , they may be strong!
This time of year calls for vigilance for falling rocks.
However, the timing matches the time when students may be heading to school.
I wonder if RR officials are suspecting sabotage because of potential suits for injury? Accidential or deliberate?
Food for thought.
avid
It's a double track area with lots of tight turns & cuts with little room beyond the ROW in some areas. The trap rock RxR company also crosses the tracks in that area on their way to LI Sound.
Mr t__:^)
This is one of the reasons why the FRA demands that trains be built like tanks.
This is a new Hot Times hot off my e-mail.
*********************************************************************
Today, When main track breaks.
I know I have been promising an hours of service piece, but I have had to do a fair amount of research in preparation for writing it. I have quite a bit of material to sort through and it will take some time to get it all done and translated into some suitable text for your reading pleasure. As I have had several things going on in my life along with the Holidays, I haven't been able to devote much time to put it all together. It will now likely happen the next time I have a trip off. But it is coming, rest assured. I have put far too much time into it to not get it out there for you.
We are instead, going to discuss broken rails. Just like everything else manufactured by human beings, rail breaks. This is not because of poor or inferior quality or by lack of maintenance. Rail takes a beating on any given day. Heavy tonnage trains pounding it, more and more trains operating on this track, the dynamics of acceleration and braking, rapidly changing weather conditions and flatspots on wheels take their toll on rail. While it is true that poor or lower standards of maintenance will play a part, all of the former list of conditions will be bigger factors. In today's era of railroading, more money is spent on taking care of the physical plant than in those dark days of the 60's and 70's. Can you say Penn Central, Rock Island, Milwaukee Road?
Railroads spend a phenomenal amount on rail. The quality of rail metallurgy has improved by leaps and bounds in the past 25 years. The industry now obtains a better quality of rail for mainline use than was previously available. It will wear longer than in the past, provided proper maintenance is performed.
Proper maintenance includes tamping and surfacing, tie replacement, periodic grinding or re-profiling of the rail just to name a few items. Drainage is also important. If the water doesn't drain away from the right of way properly, it can affect the integrity of the roadbed. If the roadbed is poor, this will eventually show up on the condition of the track.
Most mainline rail is of the continuous welded or CWR variety. Welding the rail eliminates joints which reduces maintenance. It also eliminates the battered ends that may occur at rail joints. A battered end is a small piece of rail immediately past either side of the joint itself that is beaten and battered down from the pounding of wheels hitting it. A little bit of play in either or both of the rails may cause the wheels to hit the joint not quite true. Poor maintenance may also be a factor here as well. CWR also reduces the warping in rail and
can result in improved fuel economy as well.
I had mentioned flatspots. Flatspots on car and locomotive wheels can be murder on track. Large enough flatspots can quickly damage rail to the point of causing it to break. Smaller flatspots may lead to breaks, but over a longer period of time. A three inch flatspot hitting the rail at 50 mph is equivalent to a press hammering the rail at a figure of over 400,000 lbs. This is one of the reasons railroads restrict a car with three inch flatspots to 10 mph.
Railroads are required to test main track rail electronically at least twice a year. This may be accomplished by use of private contractors such as Sperry, Dapco or Pandrol Jackson. Sperry has the familiar yellow and black self propelled rail cars. Others use trucks equipped with HyRail equipment and loaded with testing devices. CN also has a track geometry train that also measures such items as gauge, cross level and alignment. I had the opportunity to run this train last summer. The equipment is sophisticated enough to allow track speed for testing. Union Pacific used to have their own track testing truck. Don't know if they still do or not. The FRA has a track testing car called T-10. It also makes the rounds nationwide as CSX can very well attest too. I have read that a new vehicle will soon enter the FRA fleet for track testing as well.
In addition to the testing, bi-weekly track patrols are required. While these are as low tech as one can get, they are inspections just the same. The human eye is the testing agent here. Track Supervisors are observing signs of developing problems and may be able to correct
small problems on the spot, such as tightening bolts or adjusting a switch. Larger problems are called in and a section gang may be required to make repairs. Significant problems may require a speed restriction be placed at the location until repairs can be made.
Nonetheless, even with all the right maintenance and all the testing
performed, rail still breaks. And it seems that the most likely person to find a broken rail is the Signal Maintainer. A track light appears on the Dispatcher's screen. It may be after a train has cleared a block, or even just appear with no train anywhere near the block. The call goes out and the Maintainer arrives and does his thing. Many times it is an electrical problem such as a broken bond wire. It could be in the track with a loose insulated joint. On some occasions, it is a broken rail.
In my career, I have a found a fair amount of broken rails while running the engine. Fortunately, most of them were while operating at restricted speed and there was no derailment involved. There is that last part of the definition of restricted speed that plainly states "looking out for broken rail." While you are not expected to stop short of a break as you may likely not see it until it is literally right in front of you, the lower speed you are traveling will likely keep you from derailing when coming upon it.
I have had a rail literally jump up on front of me as it broke. One occasion was in the Soo Line yard in Bensenville. I got the train stopped, but not before getting the first engine of three a consist of three SD40-2's over it. We did manage to stay on the rail though.
Shortly after joing the IC, I discovered one on the Joliet Sub near the north end of Brighton Park Yard on the number 1 track. I saw the rail move and began to stop the train. Care must be exercised here as you do not want to create a rapid change in the train dynamics and possibly cause a derailment that could have been avoided.
One of them was a freak occurrence. While at the Wisconsin Central, we were called and instructed to stop at Silver Lake, WI and pick up a repaired bad order. We stopped, Brian cut us away and we proceed up to the location of the repaired car. We had cut back to clear the crossing at the west end of the siding. We had a clear signal at Silver Lake West.
We reached in and grabbed hold of the car and were ready to proceed back to the train when I noticed something very shiny in the rail. I called Brian and he walked up to inspect. There, right in front of us on the main track north rail was a large fresh break. It was all new break, no signs of deterioration. The rail had separated in the break by a good three inches. The daytime temperature had been in the low 50's and now it was about 17 degrees. A radical drop in a short time. We had caught a tremendous break here (no pun intended). Had we not stopped to make the pick up and proceeded through here at the authorized 50 mph, we most likely would have derailed. The break was just into the curve. Hitting it at a very low speed kept us from going on the ground here.
We were the second of two trains behind a broken rail on the WC near Sussex, WI one evening. The train ahead of us discovered the break and got stopped safely without derailing. We both sat for hours though as a track gang had to be called out. Called out on a Saturday night. I'll just bet these guys were really easy to find and even more thrilled to come out to work.
I had commented on the radio that these things always seem to happen when we are in the middle of nowhere and have no place to go and get off the engine and possibly get a cup of coffee or a bite to eat. As it would happen, a Sussex Fireman (and railfan) had his scanner on and came out to see us and offer us a ride into town to go to Hardee's. While not really needing the refreshments, we did offer our thanks and gave him and his family a tour of the cab of the lead unit and had a nice conversation with them all. We also got the company to send him a T-shirt and timetable for his efforts. WC was always really good about that sort of thing. Makes for good PR and also makes us good neighbors.
However, sometimes broken rails are found at high speed. This is because it hasn't broken all the way through and caused a track light to appear on Dispatcher's screen. During my days at the MoPac, a southbound Seaboard System intermodal train discovered one in Beecher, IL on the southbound main while traveling at 58 mph. The rail let go as the engines hit the point of the defect. As they were operating on a clear signal, they were not on the diligent lookout for any problems. The rail broke through as they passed over it. All three GP40-2's pulling the train made it over the break, but the 16 loads of autos and numerous intermodal cars proceeded to leave the rails and pile up everywhere before everything came to a stop.
We just missed a broken rail derailment on the WC one evening. We got over the spot in question with no problems. The very next train behind us went into the ditch there at 50 mph. Again, he got his engines over that point, it broke loose and his train piled up all over the place behind him.
This past Sunday evening on the CNIC Chicago Sub, a broken rail was discovered on the main track, just north of the switch at South Otto. I did not hear how it was discovered, but am presuming a Signal Maintainer found it. As a result, everything came to a screeching halt. Amtrak 391, 194, 397, a loaded grain train, Amtrak 392 and my train, 322 were all stopped as a result. NS 318 was stuck on the Gilman line at Gilman as a result of this as well. 325 got to sit and patiently wait on number 2 track at Rt 24 in Gilman, also known as fast food row.
Between Otto and South Otto is the Otto Pass. As it would happen, there were cars on the pass. The powers that be decided to have 194 cut off his train at North St in Kankakee and head on down to Otto Pass. They coupled onto the cars, pulled them out and swung them over to the B&P main just west of Otto. This cleared the Pass and allowed for trains to use it to get around the break. The Kankakee Signal Maintainer was able to hand operated the dual control switch at South Otto and lock it from the Pass to the Main. This allowed train movements to begin again, although at a very low rate of speed. 391 led the parade followed by 194, 397 us, the grain train that was sitting in the siding at Kankakee and Amtrak 392 who was sitting quietly and patiently waiting in the siding at Ashkum for this southbound parade to pass.
We waited at Peotone for about 20 minutes before the parade began to move. I had stopped north of town to keep clear of the crossing in the middle of the siding. We then proceeded to follow everybody, operating right on 397's block. Gauging my speed correctly, I didn't want to have to keep stopping. I did do a "touch and go landing" at
North St while waiting for 397 to clear the block ahead of us and get the home signal at KX to clear. We had over 7000 feet of train and I didn't want to have to stop on North St and have to deal with the Bradley Police. We followed 397 all the way to Rantoul and were
pretty much right on his block all that way. While not having to stop, I was getting a steady diet of approach signals much of the way.
We were all talked by the signal at South Otto with the familiar "After stopping at South Otto, you have permission to pass the stop signal from the Pass to the Main track in a southward direction. The switch is in hand operation and the Maintainer has it lined and locked for your move." As we all did so, we observed the MofW forces out there at work replacing the culprit rail. The last train of the parade was Amtrak 59 who joined late in the festivities. They had the rail fixed upon his arrival and 59 was the one to christen the new piece of rail laid to replace the broken piece.
In some cases, drilling bolt holes and adding a set of angle bars to the spot can be sufficient to reopen the railroad. In this case, the rail had to be replaced. I'm sure this is exactly where the MofW folks, the Kankakee Signal Maintainer and the Division Super really wanted to be on a Sunday evening.
There was one casualty in all of this. The grain train crew was short on time as a result of the delay and they were recrewed at Gilman by 325's crew. This effectively led to the demise of 325's train which was recrewed later in the night. 325's crew, after delivering the
grain train to Champaign was cabbed home to Glenn. 397 likewise did not have enough time to turn on their outbound train and also rubber tired it home to Markham. We managed to make it, a horribly late 391 made it, a late 59 also made it. Being that there was a train in the siding at Ashkum and a train on track two at Gilman, there was no place to get 59 around the grain train and he had to follow this train all the way to Paxton and run around him there. 59 then ran around us at Rantoul and met northbound 398 at Leverett Jct, the north end of Champaign Yard. We waited on 398 at Rantoul and then went on in to Champaign and finally tied up some 11 hours 55 minutes after going on duty.
This is not likely to be the last broken rail to ever delay my train, but I will certainly take this as opposed to hitting one at track speed.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Question. With the arrival of the new R-142 cars and the fact that the Redbird fleet is still very much with us wil there be any problem with room for car layups in the yards? Also have any Redbirds been scrapped yet?
no. the redbirds will be on their way out soon. only a few will stay around for emergencies. as of now no redbirds have been scrapped. one of the cars have been turned into a work train. the first redbirds to go will be the ones in the worst shape.
Is it true that they are planning to run the "M" line to 95 St-Fort Hamilton along the "R" line?
Actually, sometimes I wonder why they run it into Dekalb at all. They could probably use that stock with the increases in service comming in August.
Andrew
...By which I mean service increases inherent system-wide with the opening of the 63rd St connector.
:-) Andrew
Because south Brooklyn needs to have service into the Nassau St line at least during the peak.
-Hank
I doubt it, but I guess anything's possible!
Hey, you know what would really have been good? How about if, instead of tearing down the Culver Shuttle, they had run the M train along it from the Fourth Avenue Line to Ditmas Avenue?
- Lyle Goldman
At the end of all the Manhattan Bridge work, they are supposed to have a hearing to determine the final service pattern. Then, if there is enough demand for it, you may see something like that.
The next mayor of NYC will have the privlage of being apart of the subway centennial celebration. So who wants Bernie Goetz to run now? -Nick
I seriously think Bill Clinton should run for mayor of NYC. All the NYC mayor really does is attend parades, dinners, openings and deal with parks, education and transit. These are all things that Clinton excells at. He'd also re-open the 2 porn places that Guillani closed down. If Clinton were elected mayor it'd be a party for 4 years. You could also be sure he's re-open the City Hall Station.
You could also be sure he's re-open the City Hall Station
no he would not. He closed a lot of streets near the white house since 1995. What makes you think he would reopen a station?
Not by his choice, by the preference of the security detail, in response to KNOWN threats. I mean, someone crashed a PLANE onto the grounds!
That's not paranoia, ala Rudy.
-Hank
wouldn't the same danger be there if he became mayor of New York
Who would want to assinate an ex-president? Its more trouble than its worth. He might get some nut in the crowd with a guy, but not the hi cost terrorism that Guillani is worried about.
Perhaps President Clinton would consider he Govenors Spot. He has that type of experience on his resume'.
How would he be addressed?
Mr. Gov,Pres, Gov.or Just Bill.
This would be interesting. the current Occupant beleives he has an Iron clad lock on the office.
PACs are forming now!
avid
It would be more interesting than you think, because Carl McCall and Andrew Cuomo already are battling it out for the Democratic nomination.
Personally, I exepct some Democrats to start leaking whatever other dirt they can find on Clinton within the next year (assuming there is any left), because if he remains the titular head of the party and is out in public as its lead spokesman and chief fundraiser it means Hillary will have a big head start towards securing the 2004 Democratic presidental nomination.
Unless John Kerry, Dick Gephardt, Al Gore and anyone else eying a run against Bush are really, really, really sure she's not running in 2004, there's no way they'll allow the Clintons to dominate the political spotlight for the next four years.
Oh yeah (cough...World Trade Center), there are no (cough...World Trade Center) known threats to New York City (cough...World Trade Center) for Rudy (cough...World Trade Center) to be reacting to.
Do you really think NYC could use a 4 year party with Clinton. Look what General Dinkins did for the City, NOTHING !!
Not so!
On one occasion , he had a charter run for invited guest only on some vintage mueseum equipement. I Know , I saw it pass by Broadway/Nassua station on the 8th Ave line heading back to The Mueseum. Refreshments were server, and they were NOT soft beverages.
He was Transit aware!
avid
Do you really think NYC could use a 4 year party with Clinton. Look what General Dinkins did for the City, NOTHING !!
You got that right. Nothing. Except allow the crime to go up and quality of life to crash and burn.
In a town that's 90 percent Democratic, Hillary would kill her husband if he ran for mayor. By having to negotiating with the unions, dealing with community special interest groups, etc., all there could be is a downside to her presidental hopes by making one or more of those groups angry, unless Bill opened up the candy store, the way Lindsey (with Beame as comptroller) did back in the 1960s -- and we all know what that led to.
I actually think, though he has no political experience, Michael Bloomberg might make the best mayor to replace Rudy. He's more liberal than Guiliani, but from what I've heard about the way he runs his businesses, he can be just as big a hard ass, and when you're dealing with all the people the mayor of New York has to deal with, a hard ass is the only type of person that can get anything done.
(I actually think, though he has no political experience, Michael Bloomberg might make the best mayor to replace Rudy. He's more liberal than Guiliani, but from what I've heard about the way he runs his businesses, he can be just as big a hard ass, and when you're dealing with all the people the mayor of New York has to deal with, a hard ass is the only type of person that can get anything done.)
My wife was up at Bloomberg the other day. Those folks have nice offices, high salaries, and free coffee and food all day. The first thing Bloomberg would find is that his new employees have low pay, poor training, bad equipment, and lousy working conditions -- ofset by the fact that they do less work and (if they were hired before 1980) retire with massive pensions. He can't change the pensions, which are guaranteed by the state constitution. He can't fire the deadwood, since they are protected by the union and the state. Therefore, he'll have nothing to offer the people who actually work.
I don't think he knows how bad it all is.
My wife was up at Bloomberg the other day. Those folks have nice offices, high salaries, and free coffee and food all day.
In the past year, two of the 25 people in my department have left to go work for Bloomberg.
You may be right. Richard Riordan was able to manage the trasition in Los Angeles, but LA is a strong council-weak mayor type of set-up.
In that case, I would go with Hevisi, though I don't know if his asshole quotent is high enough to be an effective mayor of New York.
Comptrollers are supposed to specialize in that.
>>>I actually think, though he has no political experience, Michael Bloomberg might make the best mayor to replace Rudy. He's more liberal than Guiliani, but from what I've heard about the way he runs his businesses, he can be just as big a hard ass, and when you're dealing with all the people the mayor of New York has to deal with, a hard ass is the only type of person that can get anything done. <<<
I agree. Michael Bloomberg is a self-described "social liberal, fiscal conservative," and I think he'd make a great mayor. He changed his party affiliation from Democrat to Republican because, according to him, he never would have gotten the nomination becaue the Democratic machine is just too powerful. He thought he'd have a better shot at running as an outsider. He will. And he'll be able to sell himself to all voters by equally emphasizing his Democratic history and new-found Republican stripes. Besides, is it all that difficult to accept a billionaire CEO as a Republican? He won't be accused of waffling, because he is so new to politics and can lay claim to scouting his own agenda.
I know for a fact that Bloomberg is a great place to work. Yeah, it's still a newer company, but Michael Bloomberg has infused it with that new economy / Silicon Valley business philosophy and has a young spirit. He treats his employees well and gets their loyalty. I know this because my sister's father in-law works for them.
His biggest problem will be trying to run the city government like he does Bloomberg. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, there's less money, inferior talent, unions, pensions, and a general disinterest in improvement among the low-paid rank-and-file (just give me my check, please). His charisma may help in this, but the city is no corporation.
His charisma may help in this, but the city is no corporation.
There's still no reason that it can't be run like one. Corporations have their internal (and, to a lesser extent, external) politics as well, and the City, like a private corporation, has a large number of employees that are theoretically focused on a common goal: providing the best return to their investors. In the case of the City, of course, the investors are the taxpayers, but the concept is the same. I don't know enough about Bloomberg to pass judgment on his abilities in this area, but the concept of running the City like a business is long overdue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't know enough about Bloomberg to pass judgment on his abilities in this area, but the concept of running the City like a business is long overdue.
Moreover, a businessman might be in a better position to work with unions and other competing interests than a lifetime political hack.
Bllomberg was a Clinton supporter during the 1996 re-election (though I don't know what his feelings have been about the last 2 1/2 years), so he wouldn't -- or shouldn't -- draw the usual attacks Republicans face in New York. And if he comes under fire for being a privleged billionaire, that would be slightly hypocritical as far as the metropolitan area in general is concerned, considering Democrats backed the much-richer-and-more-liberal-than-Bloomberg John Corzine for the open Senate seat from New Jersey.
I agree he would have problems with the entrenched groups and rules in New York, but like I said, if he's a big enough hard ass not to care what these people think about him or about changing the rules, and -- more importantly -- wasn't deeply indebted to them for his election, he would probably fare better than a mayor who, when the special interests say "Jump" has to answer "How high?"
(Blomberg was a Clinton supporter during the 1996 re-election (though I don't know what his feelings have been about the last 2 1/2 years), so he wouldn't -- or shouldn't -- draw the usual attacks Republicans face in New York.)
Politics revolves around the cultural bigot-vs.-snob issue and interest groups who have an unfair piece of the pie. Everyone else stays home. His only chance would be to rally everyone else. If he were Black or Latino and otherwise the same guy, I'd give him a chance. Otherwise, forget it.
(And if he comes under fire for being a privleged billionaire, that would be slightly hypocritical as far as the metropolitan area in general is concerned, considering Democrats backed the much-richer-and-more-liberal-than-Bloomberg John Corzine for the open Senate seat from New Jersey.)
Rich guys have gotten poor votes before. The key is, first, you have to have earned the money (sorry Steve Forbes) and second, you have to argue that you're so rich there is nothing in it for you personally, and you can't be bought. I don't thing there is hostility to rich people as such in NY, as long as they aren't seen as representing the interests of the rich against others.
Well, Bloomberg certainly is as self-made a billionaire as Corzine, but as I said to Sea Beach Fred in another thread, the rule of thumb in NYC is Republicans only get elected when the city is very screwed up (1933, 1993) and the Democratic Party controls both Congress and the presidency, preventing the blame for the problems from being pushed off from the politicians who caused it to someone else (a la "Ford to New York -- Drop Dead" in the Daily News back in 1976, which helped defer the spotlight from Abe Beame and his ledger-altering cronies).
Overall, the city is in better shape now than it was eight years ago, so I would expect the voters to come home to the Democratic Party this November. What kind of Democrat they pick in the September primary election will be the big question -- will they go with a more moderate Democrat like Hevesi, move back towards the left with Mark Green or opt for someone more in the middle (Vallone)?
BTW -- If Al Shapton happens to win a multi-candidate mayoral primary election, I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks :-)
There's also the small question of who the GOP candidate is actually going to be.
Are there any GOP candidates even interested in the job? The only speculation I'd heard at all has been Floyd Flake (who would be another convert from the Democrats) and Vito Fosella (as far as the upcoming election goes, the words "snowball in hell" come to mind long before the words "Mayor Fosella").
Bloomberg and former NYC police commissioner and Rudy nemisis William Bratton are the other two. Along with Flake, all three would be only nominial Republicans running on the line because they decided the Democratic primary was unwinable, and in Bratton's case, running would be an "in your face" slap at Rudy, who could actually support Vallone or Hevesi if they were the candidate paired against Bratton (Rudy backing Green against Bratton? Unlikely, he'd just stay neutral. Rudy backing Al Shapton? Are you kiddin' me?)
About a year ago, IIRC, there was talk of John Ravitz running. I wonder what happened?
Its really quite difficult for me to believe that rich candidates can be accepted so easily, especially by the metro. area's poor- I think the average NYer or NJite is far more savvy then to believe that the rich somehow have so much money to begin with that they won't be beholden to special interests and "can't be bought". OF COURSE they will be beholden to spec. int., for they ARE the special interests influences that poorer candidates have to defer to and sell-out to if they are to get and stay in office!
The only difference is that instead of remaining quietly behind the scenes and manipulating legislation to their own selfish benefit via their bought and paid for candidates, they've chosed to take a more direct route of eliminating the "middleman" and simply running themselves. Please, why else would someone independantly wealthy spend umpteen millions of $$$ to in effect purchase a job paying only a hundred thousand or so a year?!! Obviously, there is an incentive, and you can rest assured that as people who've probably fought, clawed, and exploited others for power and money, its definitely not out of a sense of good civics or to advance populist causes- its simply more of the same old "business as usual" for them and their cronies.
In other words, I think poor metro area voters voting for filthy rich candidates is the exception, not the rule.
It really very sad to see our legislative and judicial systems made to cater to and kowtow to big business- but they do in recognition and deferrence to the tremendous amount of power, money, and influence the very wealthy and big business represent. If you think about it, they are actually in effect, our "fourth branch of government", when one considers the incredible influence over this country's economy and legislative lawmaking they have and use. This is particularly scary, because unlike the other 3 branches of Gov't., they obviously CANNOT be impeached or voted out of office. The only real way to even begin to make a dent in this problem is to :
1. Cap the amount of $$$ candidates each candidate is allowed to spend at a certain reasonable, non-extravagant amount, and;
2. Provide matching funds like the same way we do in the presidential elections, and;
3. Completely eliminate or greatly reduce Corporate and special interest donations to candidates.
P.S.: BTW- Andrew Cuomo, Mario's son,
has announced his plans to unemploy Peace,
Pataki next election, it should be Thomas
interesting to see how that fight'll
turn out!!!
I would say poor voters casting ballots for rich candidates in New York State is a time-honored tradition -- look at Gov. Harriman or Gov. Rockefeller -- while New Jersey has had a tradition of also electing rich people to high posts, none richer than Mr. Corzine.
The trend is less evident in New York City, though Andy Stein did a good job of using daddy's money to get himself elected to head the City Council. Overall, I'd say during good economic times a rich candidate with the right political views has a chance at winning in the city. During an economic recession, no way.
Enjoyed reading your response, even if I may not completely agree. Write on!!! -peace, Thomas the R-15 subway engine
Two Republican Mayors of New York City in a row? I doubt it. In fact, I'll make a reasoable wager with anyone who wants some action that this will never happen. Any takers?
Two Republican Mayors of New York City in a row? I doubt it. In fact, I'll make a reasonable wager with anyone who wants some action that this will never happen. Any takers?
Fred, I dobut it, too, since it goes against tradition -- that is, New York City only elects Republican mayors when the city is royally screwed up and Democrats control both the White House and Congress, because it removes a convienent out-of-town place to put the blame for all the troubles.
Bloomberg's positions on many social issues are closer to mainstream Democrats that Republicans, which should help. But whoever gets the GOP mayoral nomination will face the prospect of having George W. Bush, Trent Lott and Tom DeLay as his running mates in November, no matter what happens between now and then.
(The next mayor of NYC will have the privlage of being apart of the subway centennial celebration.)
Here is what you should remember. Green, Vallone, and Ferrer have said their top prioritiy will be more money for new, subsidized housing -- which will presumably be distributed to their supporters. You'll have a "first come, first serve" waiting list, but certain people and groups will be tipped about when and where it opens -- just like the Mitchell-Lamas.
Meanwhile, Hevesi has said his top two priorities are job creation (and we know what type of goverment spending lead to job creation, don't we?) and education. I don't do this very often, but I'd send Hevesi a contribution if I knew where he was.
Isn't he still the NYC Comptroller?
Heard that parts of Astoria and the upper East Side felt a weak 2.5 earthquake at around 7:30 this morning. Anybody feel it?
Hmmm, the El's feels like it's shaking, but wait, there's no train!
Most definitely. I felt it around 8 a.m. or so. It sounded like many VERY large objects fell down in our basement, and the house did shake rather noticeably for about 5 seconds. I has no idea what it was till I picked up the morning paper! According to the map in the Times, my house lies directly on top of the 125th Street fault line where it extends into Astoria. Yikes.
>>>I felt it around 8 a.m. or so.<<<
Ok, maybe it was more like 7:30. I was waiting for my wife to exit the shower, still lying in bed. I actually rushed in to see if she was ok 'cause I thought she might have fallen. (We have those sliding shower doors which can rumble.)
2.5???? Wait till it gets up around 5.0 and you MIGHT feel a little something. Having been through 7.0's a couple times now, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
in the 1989 San Fransisco bay quake at 7.x Bart & SF MUNI Subway and the transbay tube were up and running when the power was restored.
I don't belive that any of the NY city area rail tunnels or El's would be intact after a 4.x or higher quake.
The mayor and a rep fro NYC Envirmental services said that damage to the city would accur from an earthquake of 6.x or higher due to Earthquake Retrofit of Older Buldings (From NY Post/Newsday/Daily News/Ny Times).
From The earthquake Info Center In Co 3/4 of manhattan island would be rubble by a quake of bewtween 4.7 and 5.0.
Set the clock a little earlier this morning so I can have some extra time on the trains. I got to Brighton Beach in time to get on the 7:44 Quincy out of Brighton. It was a R32 again. Two days in a row man! Let's try again tomorrow. But anyway. I got on the train at the stairs and slowly made my way to the last car through the storm doors. At the last car I noticed it was more empty than usual. The doors were already closed but I didn't hear the C/R say anything like "Stand Clear Of The Closing Doors" so I looked back into the previous car and saw the doors still opened. Then it occured to me that the circuit breakers kept the doors from opening. The train left Brighton Beach and got to Sheepshead Bay. The people on the platform waiting for the doors to open stood there expecting them to open. The I started pointing to the other car that it's doors open. They got on. It was the same story till Church Avenue when the platform C/Rs noticed the doors weren't opening. Then the C/R was notified on the train. The platform C/R tried to open the door using the keyhole outside the car to key it open but it didn't work. Then the doors in my car open without help from the platform C/R. I wonder how it happened. But people stayed in the second to last car instead of the last which only had it's seats full and a few standees. At Atlantic Avenue I found out that there was a busted rail on the 6th Avenue Line. The Q Trains ran on Broadway but the D Trains continued over the bridge. Any info about that? How was your ride?
Yes its true, Corona stickers are now beginning to appear on the Main Line R 36s. Car #s 9550 and 9551 now have their westinghouse stickers on them (same stickers as the 9300 and 9400 series cars black with purple) (in this case without purple)It looks like these cars are here to stay. Believe me I wouldnt mind seeing R62As on the 7 only time will tell when these cars will arrive.
I just found this out Dayton has a subway system. In fact it is very large only New Yorks is larger in the U.S. here is the url
http://www.mvra.org/
Try www.mvrta.org for the real Miami Valley Regional Tranist Authority. Very clever and well-thought-out system, except the news, employees' page, and complex fare structure :).
do you know anything about the person who set up this site?... he has a twisted sense of humor...
Please say only nice things about the MVRA. Their VP in charge of lost and found, Misty Dawn Sizemore, personally recommends The Third Rail.
Many other transit authority sites should look as professional and be as informative as MVRA's.
Many other transit authority sites should look as professional and be as informative as MVRA's.
Yeah, like MVRTA's site. "We're sorry- route and schedule information
is unavailable at this time."
there was no subway in dayton OH last time i was there & checked!!
Ummm ... that's the joke. The real site is MVRTA.ORG ... is parody, slice of life, humor ... INnnnnnnput ...
Don't waste your time, TMO
Peace,
ANDEE
UMMM... by any chance, did you also check to see how far your head is up your ass?
ANDEE
He has a couple other sites too that are very funny...I seem to recall they're on the links page, although i haven't been to the MVRA in awhile...
-Spunky
That's really creative. I thought I was being creative when I used Adobe to make a bogus subway map of Jackson, MS, but this is truly beautiful.
Mark Michalovic
That's funny. I wonder what issues that transit system has that would prompt a seemingly sarcasitc page.
If you go to the "real" Miami Valley transit page, I think the cause becomes apparent ... "transit schedules and fares - not available" ... one has to wonder why the "real" MVRTA even bothered to put up web pages with nothing on them.
They took "how to setup useless/deaf webpage" lessons from NYCT
Peace,
ANDEE
looks like a r-142 fan
WHAT
What do you mean by this? I have never been on an R-142 nor have I been on a redbird. In case you (or anyone else) dosn't no the site is fake. BTW have you ever been up here to boston? If you like the redbirds we have cars painted blue orange and Boston style Redbirds.
what years did the 10 and 11 trains run, instead of the diamond 5 and 7? I would think that having diff numbered trains might be less confusing, since not everyone may notice the diamond instead of a circle.
Also, I have heard that some of the irt lines (I think the 1,2,and/or 3 line) have the #'s 12,13,14, and possibly 15 on their rollsigns in case one of the routes terminates at a different location, or runs a special express route. Would we see this used in the future? Any info about this would be greatly appreciated. -Nick
Why don't they have 8 in place of a diamond?
It's special (3rd ave el).
And I think there is a green 8.
The number 15 was the Jamaica Bway assigned route number back before the J/Z designation.
It's come up before, but I can't find the original discussion at the moment. The 10-14 never ran on the IRT (the BMT's numbering scheme is another story); the numbers are just there for possible future designations or redesignations of the <> routes. 8, 10, and 14 are green, 11 is purple, 13 is red, and 12 is in both red and green.* The 8, of course, was the Third Avenue el in the Bronx in the 1970s, but those trains nad no signage.
*Reference: R36 #9346's R62 Rollsign
I'm against using two digit numbers on the IRTs, even if once upon a time the BMTs used numbers up to 16 or so.
One of the hallmarks of the modern subway is its basic simplicity and recognizability. Whether the system reached its current route designations by design or accident, the fact remains: Single letters, single digit numbers, and colors to designate Manhattan trunk lines.
Going into double digits compromises the simplicity of the system.
:-) Andrew
How are double digits complicated? A 12 train won't be interpereted as a "one-two train," just a "twelve train." Not rocket science. Of course, double letters are a different story.
I think I like the single digits because they're easy to pick out with a very quick glance. If you're standing on a crowded 6 train, and you can juts barely see out of the train across the platform, it is useful to know just which train you're looking at. Now it's one thing to tell a "4" from a "5", another thing to tell a "12" from a "14".
Also, I think our minds have an easier time remembering 26 different letters than 26 different numbers. Maybe it's because letters have audio "cues" in our thinking. Or maybe it's simply because there are 26 different variations that each hold one "place", as opposed to numbers which reset everytime you hit a multiple of ten.
:-) Andrew
Customer: How do you get to Parkchester from here?
Token Clerk: Take the 6 or 14 train.
Customer: The 6 or 4?
Clerk: Yep.
Those microphones suck.
there are two different trains going to two different places(Dyre Ave and 238St.)
Why should both have the same number? It would be much simpler with one route per route designation.
Imagine th following directions being given to a tourist:
Take the 5 train, no not that 5 train, the other 5 train.
This 5 train doesn't go where you need to go, you need to take a 5 train to get there. Not this 5 train, a different 5 train.
OK. So there use the number 8. Done. No two-digit numbers necessary.
:-)
Same thing with the two "A" services, one to Lefferts and one to Far Rockaway - I am a proponent of signing the Rockaway "A" services up as "H".
wayne
I aggree. That one is made worse by the fact that one of those "A" services goes to the airport. And just to make it even worse to out-of-towners, the "A" largely uses R44s, with the crappy digital side-signs.
Ideally, I'd have all "C" trains running to Lefferts, all "A" trains to Far Rockaway, and use the "S" (or better yet, the "H") for Rock Park. But if they can't do that, then at least change the letter of the Lefferts service.
:-) Andrew
Maybe go back to double letters. Sorta like "AL" for Lefferts and "AM" for Mott and "AB" for Beach 116.
Hey! I just got done saying how I don't like double letters and two-digit numbers for the subway!
Oh well. Anyway, there are more than enough single letters to go around.
:-) Andrew
[Ideally, I'd have all "C" trains running to Lefferts, all "A" trains to Far Rockaway, and use the "S" (or better yet, the "H") for Rock Park. But if they can't do that, then at least change the letter of the Lefferts service.]
I would have either the Lefferts (A) or the Far Rockaway (A) designated as the (H). No sense having to (A)'s to two separate destinations. Does the R-44's have a blue circle (H)? How about a (K)?
Bill "Newkirk"
An H-8th Ave. express paired along with the A would probably be too discombobulating for people riding the train in Manhattan, even if it would make more sense for the Lefferts/Far Rockaway split, while extending the C to Lefferts would irk the people along Liberty who now have a one seat express ride into Manhattan and would have to change between Rockaway Blvd and Euclid to avoid the local.
While Upper Broadway and Pelham Bay Park riders have had to endure this problem forever, the MTA may not want to deal with the community protests and just keep things the way they are. Of course, if the Airtrain service to the Howard Beach station proves popular enough to attract some serious ridership out from Manhattan and they start getting enough protests from people stuck at Lefferts, that might force the issue (though a big sign pointing the way to the Q-10 bus to JFK would work almost as well).
What would be wrong with two letters for 8th Ave express? It's the same ammount of service. There are two expresses on Lexington Ave, Seventh Ave, and (for the moment) THREE expresses on Sixth.
Look at the hue and cry over just adding the V train service. Changing some of the Eighth Ave. express trains from the A to the H, even if there were no other changes in service patterns, would create problems because:
A.) people are so stuck in their ways that they would be unnerved by any type of change from the way things have been for the past 43 years, and
B.) Even if the MTA said all service patterns were staying the same, some people would be absolutely positive the number of trains on their line had been cut back.
But like I said, if the Airtrain attracted enough important passengers -- people from Manhattan (sacrasm here, folks) -- who got confused about the Lefferts/Rockaways split, then the MTA might consider a change.
I guess the logic is theat the two different services make all the same stops for most of their run (27), and the difference is only the last 3 stops on one branch and 9 on the other. So the Lefferts is almost like a shortline version of Rockaway, and not different enough for a new letter.
This is probably also why they are going with the dual Q later this year, and they are sticking with the dual 5 and 6 services, (even though provisions were made on the signs to change them)
Now, a skip stop is a more complicated pattern, and that is when they use separate letters for services that stay on the same line. (J/Z, 1/9, 86-88 D/Q (which was evidenced to have originally been planned to be designatd only "Q", but the D was put back to avoid confusion. Only thing then, you had 2 totally separate D lines )
"I guess the logic is theat the two different services make all the same stops for most of their run (27), and the difference is only the last 3 stops on one branch and 9 on the other. So the Lefferts is almost like a shortline version of Rockaway, and not different enough for a new letter."
Ah! But what a difference those few stops make! It's the difference between airport and no airport!
Andrew
Remember when the (AA) became the (K)? Same service, but different letters. And as far as the (6) and <6> are concerned, the bullets are different. I think it's more confusing having to (A)'s going to two seperarate destinations.
If community protests were to happen if an (H) designation would replace the (A) to Lefferts, then protestors are really dumb. The TA would place placards in all (A) and (C) trains, as well as fare control areas and platforms "educating" the riding public of a change.
When you see a train approaching and see (H), you would know, Lefferts. When you see another with (A) you would identify that with Far Rockaway. Now when you see and (A) it's, Lefferts or Far Rockaway ?? It boils down to easy identification.
Now the (V) is a whole different story, since it will be a whole new service. As far as (Q) and , that's when confusion will reign.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, the V isn't exactly a new service. It's really a shorter, more local version of a route the F will be vacating. But that's not your point. So with your chops successfully busted, I concurr. :)
:-) Andrew
I'm not sure about the "K" designation, but they definately have the "H" designation. In fact, the R44s used the "H" designation in regular service on the midnight hours only Round Robin Shuttle.
And confuse tourists more? Make Lefferts service the H despite the fact H has always been Rockway. A stands for airport, even the craziest of tourists should be able to figure it out.
To answer your first question: Numbers above 9 have never been used on IRT lines. They're there on the rollsigns because...well I have no idea why they're there. Maybe because there's room for them (as opposed to the BMT/IND rollsigns which are taken up by nearly letter of the alphabet.)
:-) Andrew
"They're there on the rollsigns because...well I have no idea why they're there."
I think some of the double digit #'s are on the rollsigns were there to be used if certain lines ran a through express service, or if they terminated somewhere than the normal spot...don't have much more info than that. :( -Nick
Caught it at 6:30 at 42nd Street this morning, but is was having problems
1 - No electronic interior signs
2 - No electronic announcements
3 - Massive feedback on the PA when manual announcements were made with the doors open
And there was no artwork !!
Again, it WAS 6:30 in the morning..
Sounds like a lemon to me.
I can see you have no technical knowledge of the 142 whatsoever. The first 2 listed problems are the same thing. All the passenger information features are controlled at the same time, so it's pretty difficult to arrange for the announcements to work and the signs not to (unless there's a way to turn one or the other off after starting). The absence of both is due to the crew not turning it on at the terminal, and after frustratingly trying mid route, giving up. Feedback from the manual announcements is because the sound from the external PA was bouncing off the station walls and back into the mike, most C/Rs have trouble working the PA (perhaps it was made overly difficult to encourage them to remember to use the automated system).
By your logic the R-46 is a lemon because sometimes the signs are off or displaying the wrong destination.
By your logic the R-46 is a lemon because sometimes the signs are off or displaying the wrong destination.
And because the trucks cracked and the controllers had to be replaced :).
Again, it WAS 6:30 in the morning..
So what has that have to do with anything ??
You're the conductor or train operator. At 6:30AM, are you going to remember how to work the damn thing? It's apparantly very easy to screw up the automated stuff, usually because the crew doesn't remember at the first stop to set it. Starting mid-route is a pain in the ass.
You're actually trying to make sense of his cryptic crap! Take my advice, don't even bother.
Peace,
ANDEE
South Ferry is just Salaam without the rabid racism and atrocious grammar.
Point well taken.
Peace,
ANDEE
Let's see..... How many subtalkers actually say something that makes sense? Is it even worth reading? Perhaps not. We can bitch and moan about how bad the R-142s are, but you know what, I don't see them going anywhere anytime soon..... So I say EACH OF YOU JUST NEEDS TO LIVE WITH IT.
-Stef
Who's bitching and moaning about them? I like the R142s.
Peace,
ANDEE
So do I !! I was just showing that either the software/hardware combo needs some tuning, or the crews need some more practice with the equipment.
Other than that, the train ran fine, right?
Yes !!
In all cases is rapid transit and light rail considered an essential service not subject to a rolling blackout in California? Would this be true in all cities across the nation if they encounter a power emergency?
BART in SF stated ina newspaper interview back in December that they had a separate low rate no intteruption contract with the feds(presumably Bonneville_ In turn, sadly, BART is IMHO nehaving badly--continuing to run down escalators at all hours even in lightly used stations.
My understanding is NYCT takes power right from the grid. If part of the city goes down, the subway does down with it.
What's strange is there seems to be no warning. You'd think they'd publish a schedule of who would be blacked out in what order, if the need arises, so people would know to shut down for an hour if they had to.
CA officials say they don't want to specify where rolling blackouts will occur to discourage burglary.
Now that California has stiffer gun control laws, that shouldn't be a problem!
avid
Burglars don't usually use guns, the crime implies that there is no person in the building. It becomes Robbery is there is someone there. Also because criminals can always get guns, the new laws will mean fewer victims will be able to shoot back and defend themselves.
Lets just have the municapalities turn off the street lights. Big saving in tax money and power consumption. Next if needed , traffic signals, then elavators. Not all elevators at once, 10% or the next closest percent per whole elevator.
avid
If we let the NIMBY's win with blocking new power plants, what California is going through may be in our future this summer.
I recently observed my Flatbush Avenue-to-Cedarhurst trip on the LIRR from the railfan window in the front. I was astounded at how fast the train was going eastbound between East New York and Jamaica. I couldn't see the speedometer, but we must have been going at least 60 in the tunnel.
Does anyone know how fast the MU's can go? Were they ever tested, like the R-44 was?
I've personally seen the speedometer on an M-1 show 77 mph through New Hyde Park, but I don't know their maximum possible speed (or the maximum allowable speed on the LIRR - I think I read or heard that it's faster on Metro-North).
The MU's can do 90 MPH when running express between Larchmont and Mamaroneck on the New Haven line.
NJT Arrow MU's go about 100 mph between New Brunswick and Princeton JCT on regular basis.
MAS on New Haven line is 90MPH, an ACELA sticking point.
That's because the overhead catenaries can't handle a faster speed.
Or they're too affraid to try. I'm sure trains went over 90 mph in the New Haven era.
The problem is the catenaries haven't been replaced or upgraded since well before the end of the NH era. They are just OLD.
No, the trains did NOT go over 90 miles an hour during the New Haven era. In fact, the maximum speed in those days, according to NHRR Employee Timetables, was 70 miles an hour. They didn't have much equipment that could attain anything higher anyway. (And if it did, the condition of the track and catenary in those days wasn't quite where it should have been....)
I doubt the EP-3 or 4s could maintain 90, and the EP-5's sure couldn't - they were run on the PRR as a test and the locomotives couldn't handle the sustained high speed running. The EP-5 was probbably designed for good acceleration (which is also suggested by a C - C wheelbase and 4000 hp), not all out top speed haunling (like the GG-1 and AEM-7s). Anyway, it's kinda like a dragster and a Nascar. One can go 200mph all day, but takes a while to get there, the other can go 200mph for about 5 minutes, but gets to 200 real fast.
The MUTs probbably couldn't hit much over 70 either - they sucked in AC mode I've read. The washboards might have done a bit better, but were somewhat flakey cars.
Anyway, the New Haven's catenary design sucks for high speed running.* The PRR's is a bit better, but far from ideal. Of course, the new stuff to Boston was designed for high speeds.
Does Amtrak have anything like rule 1777Q? (Or is it 1770Q?)
*For starters, it's fixed tension. Also, there's quite a bit of coupling between the wires over the tracks, it moves around like crazy, doesn't zig zag, never stays in place on curves, etc, etc.
Rule 1777Q?
Yes. 60mph in certain curves in the system, when it's colder than aroun 40 degrees or warmer than about 85. This is to prevent dewirements. Also, there's a near systemwide speed restriction when it's really cold or really hot. Also to prevent dewirements.
Neither of these apply to the section below Port Chester, and won't apply to the rebuilt section below Stamford.
You can tell if RR's have temp rules because the defect detectors tell you the temp. Amtrak's detectors do as do the IC's.
Yeah, but it is still faster than the cars.
Peace,
ANDEE
The design speed for the Metro North M2 (New Haven) MU cars was 100mph. The highest speed allowed anywhere is, as you said, 90mph on the New Haven line in Westchester. I think the design speed for the Metro North M1 (Hudson/Harlem) and the Long Island MU cars is lower because of the third rail pickup, rather than the overhead used on the New Haven line.
The maximum speed for the LIRR cars isn't due to the third rail but the fact that the grade crossing signal protection (i.e. crossing gates) weren't coming down fast enough to accomodate the higher speeds! The cars were tested at 100 miles an hour before being put in service in late 1968/early 1969 -- and crossings were flagged for the tests. The gates would get all the way down about the time the sixth car would cross at 100 miles an hour!!!
You have a railroad that has third rail AND grade crossings? Isn't that a little dangerous?
Yep, and noisy too if you live within 1/2 mile of the RR. Actually, the trains only travel at high speeds on the portions of the line that are either underground or elevated. There's a speed limit on the at-grade portions.
On the LIRR Babylon branch at "Green Acres" they typically do 70 MPH.
It's a long elevated piece with no stations or switches.
Mr t__:^)
The speed limits on "at-grade" portions aren't much different than those on elevated stretches of the LIRR.
Look at Mineola, for example -- mainline trains going through there, encountering three grade crossings east of the station are allowed MAS of 80 miles an hour (m.u.'s) and 65 m.p.h. (diesels).
Hell, the LIRR had low level platforms in electric land until the 70's too. Port Washington station was one example. i believe a few stops even had the third rail on the *platform* side.
This was years ago, before lawyers were sharks, and people used more than .5% of their brains.
All grade crossings are GAPS in the third rail. LOL!!
I had a friend who was an engineer on the Port Jeff line. He would get the Express Train from Port Jeff, it skipped Huntington (the first electric stop) and wrong railed (ran west on eastbound track) to DIVIDE tower, then on to Jamica. He had over 21 crossings at grade at track speed. He would say "you don't know excitment until you make that run. Cars driving around downed gates in front of you, trucks stopped with gate arms down over their backs...."
"The gates would get all the way down about the time the sixth car would cross at 100 miles an hour!!!"
Not to nit-pick but I believe the MAs through new Hyde park is 80 MPH. I also believe that the CFR requires that the gates be down 25-27 seconds before the train passes. If you increase the MAS to 100 MPh, that's a 25% increase which would effectively shorten the 'gate-down' time by the same 25% or roughly 19 seconds. This would not meet the CFR mandate but I hardly think the difference is as dramatic as you make it seem. (Or is my math incorrect?)
[(Or is my math incorrect?)]
I don't think we have enough information to do the math yet. If the rules say that the gates must be completely down for 25 seconds before the train passes, then we need to know how long it takes for the gates to go down from when they first sense that a train is approaching. Let's call that "G" seconds.
Let's also assume that the gate sensors have been placed far enough from the crossing that the gates are completely down for 25 seconds for an 80mph (or 117 feet per second) train. Therefore the sensors are 117 multiplied by (25 + G) feet distant from the crossing. Let's call that "D" feet. So D = 117(25 + G)
Now if a 100mph (147fps) train approaches, it will reach the crossing in D/147 seconds after passing the sensors. If we want to make sure that the gates are completely down just when the 100mph train passes, then D/147 must equal G. Doing the math, we have:
D/147 = G
D = 147G
117(25 + G) = 147G
2925 + 117G = 147G
2925 = 30G
G = 97.5
So, only if it takes longer than 97.5 seconds for the gates to go down will the 100mph train pass the crossing before the gates are completely down (assuming the gates have been set to follow the rules correctly for an 80mph train)
Heypaul - Check my math!
Well, I put my actuary hat on for a moment and your math checks out. One interesting thing I noticed along the way is that if G really were 97.5 seconds, then the sensors would have to be placed almost three miles before the crossing.
It's nice to know that there's at least one other railfan actuary!
>>>Well, I put my actuary hat . . . .<<<
I need one of those, where did you get yours? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>Well, I put my actuary hat . . . .<<<
I need one of those, where did you get yours? 8-)
I believe it takes many years of very difficult study :-)
Want to be an Actuary?
Cool, Thanks, Bob
Peace,
ANDEE
So, only if it takes longer than 97.5 seconds for the gates to go down ...
Actuarilly, you've got your inequalities backwards.
As simple sanity check should suffice. If the gates went down in 0 time, then the sensor distance would be depend solely on train speed. A 100 mph train should always the same distance quicker than an 80 mph train.
If you insist on being formal it should read:
D/147 > G (i.e. the travel time must be greater than the gate time)
D > 147G
117(25 + G) > 147G
2925 + 117G > 147G
2925 > 30G
97.5 > G
Of course you are correct. I blew it!
25 seconds befoe the train arrives? WHY have a rule like that? It seems to me it is this kind of excess caution that makes people think they can drive around the gates and beat the train. I'm sure that sometimes they are correct in thinking this - and sometimes they are dead wrong. If the margin was reduced to, say, having the gates fully down ten seconds before the train arrived, the net result might be fewer accidents, because people would know they couldn't beat the train, and therefore wouldn't try.
I don't have My CFR at home so I can't reference it. However, I'm quoting a number given to me by a former LIRR engineer and a very bright guy.
I've seen a lot of "very bright" people make a lot of simple mistakes too.
While the MAS is NOW 80 miles an hour in places such as NHP, Mineola, etc. -- when the M-1's were brand new (in late 1968) most of the LIRR had a MAS of 65 miles an hour (which is what the diesels have as MAS to this day). It was even rare to see trains running at 65 miles an hour, unless they were an express that didn't stop until maybe Hicksville (they'd use that bit of a downhill east of Floral Park to get going....)!! Remember, they were running RS-1/2/3's int hose days, and a heavy train got a C-420. None of them wee set for speed, mainly for acceleration from stops. And the m.u. cars of that era....they were'nt much better, especially considering that the LIRR loved to mix consists of 1963-vintage MP75's in with 1918-vintage MP54's, as well as trains having maybe 20% unpowered trailers.
And you also did NOT have the Federal Railroad Administration, etc. in those days either.
And you also did NOT have the Federal Railroad Administration, etc. in those days either.
Even thought I do believe the FRA was around back then, the primary regulatory agency was the ICC and or the ARR. Why did they ever get rid of the ICC?
The trucking industry wanted it dead. They got their wish and well ... trucking profitability went the way of the airlines and PG&E. The trucking industry insisted that the trains remain regulated though so apparently regulation is good or bad depending on which business you run.
Hmm, I don't notice much of a difference in speed between the diesels and the M-1's on the Mineola-Jamaica stretch. To the contrary, the diesels seem a little faster
Actually, I was told that the MAS for LIRR diesels is 80 MPH in electrified territory
jrf:
I think that you're probably right though I think that the MUs on the Harlem line might be able to go 95 MPH or perhaps 100 MPH.
BMTJeff
I've seen SEPTA MU's hit 87 on the NEC between Trent town and Bristol.
When the LIRR M-1's were brand new, they were reportedly tested up to 100 miles an hour. They are restricted to a maximum of 80 miles an hour because the crossing gates wouldn't come down fast enough at higher speeds!!!
(And before certain know-it-alls say "why not change the crossing gates"....thought was given to that, but the thought was also given to the fact that slower diesel-powered trains are intermingled with the faster m.u.'s and this gave a lot of weight (no pun intended) towards limiting the mu. speeds to 80 m.p.h. max vs. rewiring every last crossing signal circuit on Long Island where the m.u.'s would travel.)
Yeah but what about the elevated Babylon line where there are no crossings?? I think the decision for an MAS of 80mph had to do with more safety concerns than just crossing gates.
At the time the M-1's first went into service, there were still grade crossings on the Babylon line. Copiague, Lindenhurst, etc. were still on the ground or just being elevated then.
FWIW, I've heard the number 117 kicked around for the M-1s and 103 for the M-3s. The lower speed on the M-3s being a function of the increased weight.
I think the M-1s were designed for high acceleration too. Subway like, in fact. I have an RR age article that gave specs on it.
I've also heard stories of 100+mph Arrows. I think the best I ever heard was 115. I think PC ran a 100mph schedule for them for a while.
Of course, I've heard stories of GG-1s running 110+. I don't think was ever documented though.
The GG1 speedo only went to 100. Often time they'd have it pegged and not know how fast they were going.
Recently many east coast freight RR's have been returning many older freight locomotives to their leasors (usually old GE;s like C30-7's, B36-8's, C32-8's etc. etc.) Well instead of getting rid of them they should be put to work. Each unit has an engine alternator set that can devolop about 2500 KW. They can be parked around CA and plugged into the power grid and then activated when needed. At the current rates each locomotive could earn about $150-250 per hour. However, since they would probably be used only for emergencies they could charge a premium and make maybe $300-350 and hour.
(Recently many east coast freight RR's have been returning many older freight locomotives to their leasors (usually old GE;s like
C30-7's, B36-8's, C32-8's etc. etc.) Well instead of getting rid of them they should be put to work. Each unit has an engine
alternator set that can devolop about 2500 KW.)
Diesel is dirty power. If California was willing to permit oil burning plants, it wouldn't be in this mess. It would be in an even worse air pollution mess instead.
I'll bet no one is complaining about those "uneconomic" windfarms now!
They are building more wind turbines out around Palm Springs, but their efficency level still limits their effectiveness, and IMHO, they are reaching the point along I-10 where they're being transformed from interesting curiosity into eyesore, just as all other types of power plants are considered none-to-pleasing to look at.
They should paint the blades in such a way as to appear to be a spiral, spining ever inward, to induce hypnosis. Then broadcast over the radio to drive less, and use and ask for more mass transit.
avid
There's a big windmill farm down near Ellenville, NY (Ulster county) ... it is noisier than JFK in the summer ... if the NIMBYs in Astoria are honked off about the noise the jet turbines will produce when they come on line, they've just GOTTA hear the nasty noises those windmills make. In a country setting, it's ear splitting. Really.
There's a big windmill farm down near Ellenville, NY (Ulster county) ... it is noisier than JFK in the summer ... if the NIMBYs
in Astoria are honked off about the noise the jet turbines will produce when they come on line, they've just GOTTA hear the nasty noises those windmills make. In a country setting, it's ear splitting. Really.
Not to mention the fact that PETA types hate these windmill farms, as the blades have a tendency to send our feathered friends to that great roost in the sky.
Heh. I'm a PETA member ... "People Eating Tasty Animals" ... up here, Bambi ain't cute ... Bambi is a rodent on stilts ...
Too bad about windmill noise. I saw a show on global warming. They had a bunch of engineer types trying to come up with solutions. Then they had the Greenpeace crowd, which is against global warming fossil fuels, but also against nuclear and dams. They WERE in favor of wind.
Kind of like the NYC manufacturing advocates. They are only in favor of manufacturing because we can't get it. If manufacturers were beating down the doors to get in there, they'd oppose.
If we could just get the Greenpeacers to unplug their hot tubs, chances are California would still be lit. :)
The EPA is the problem not only in CA but the whole country. Toxic waste is one thing but the bad times they the bureaucrats give to building new power plants be it coal oil or nuclear is unreal. They ban new refineries to keep us dependent on foreign suppliers. They need to do like they did in upstate years ago and connect a couple of excess locomotives to the gid and crank out the juice.
Actually, retrofitting locomotives would be a whole lot more expensive than just building new generating equipment because of the problem of controlling the phase of generators. A locomotive is useful if you plug some lights into IT ... but not as something feeding the grid.
There's a solution to the grid situation, and it's coming already to NYC in the form of ten jet turbine generators that fall just under the trigger limit for EPA oversight in output. A number of the power plants up here have added these things for peak power demand in summer and depth of winter (would you believe that electric baseboard heating is widely used upstate?)
Basically, these things are single jet engines connected to a generator with control circuitry that makes them run in phase with the grid. One such (maybe more than one) was proposed to be sited next to Big Allis in Ravenswood (Astoria) and has already been challenged by the local NIMBYs there including I think Silvercup Studios. Sure they're noisy, but at least something that can be cranked up practically in a pinch ... and that's what they get used for, a pinch.
As much as I'd like to see a rusted out GP-38 making power, it really doesn't work for powering a grid. They're only useful for spot power in an emergency at a specific site that's off the grid where phasing and droops isn't a big problem.
As I said before, the Power Co. would disconnect a zone, but instead of a blackout it would be hooked into a locomotive generator. This could really work for factories or small bussiness zones.
Yes ... that is possible ... my only point was to get it "out there" that such is a highly limited option and certainly wouldn't do for "grid replacement" ... the other part of the problem is that three phase AC motors (used by large refrigerators and industrial outfits) would likely only be damaged by such an approach. But for plain lighting and some heating, it would do.
I was being a little smart. But we had turbine power aux power units that we plugged into our choppers in Alaska to help during cold cranking.It was loud but put out the power when the starter was activated. The gas powered units would lug down and stall.But as a nation power is a problem and mass transit is an answer not concrete unless used for ties.
(Would you believe that electric baseboard heating is widely used upstate?)
Another example of how low prices have encouraged people to be piggy with energy. Having toured upstate last summer, however, I can say one thing...not too many SUVs. They're all down here.
Most people don't choose that kind of heating. The local utility companies push it and pressure builders 6to install it in new homes. In the Cleveland area the utility pushes Heat Pumps backed up with resistance heating. My uncle said you can watch the meters fly off the houses in the winter. Smart people drill their own gas wells and get their heat for free.
Actually a more practical matter. Many many years ago, folks would only summer up here - now we live here. Most heating systems are circulating hot water and if a house freezes, the pipes bust. With the electric heating, that isn't an issue. Of course when much of this was done, Niagara Mohawk was a hydro power company and electricity was cheap up here because of it. Not any more. NYS got out of the hydro business and punished the hell out of companies using cheap hydro as being "anticompetitive" with the big coal and oil fired plants down south your way.
There we go again, bashing California. FYI, if California goes down the tubes in any way over this fiasco, New York and the rest of the country will feel the ripple effects. We have the 7th largest economy in the world, and our influence is felt all over the land. I hope we can alleviate this serious problem and soon. The outages are rapidly moving down the state and we Southern Californians are going to feel them very soon. Remember, SC is most more heavily populated than NC and its ill effects will be greater. This the time for business and government to start earning their money.
Didn't intend to bash Californians but the issue is you can't have it both ways. Electric power pollutes and requires big smelly generators placed SOMEWHERE. You can't deregulate part way either. Sanity would have dictated NOT deregulating at all given the realities there. But power plants needed to be built and they weren't, largely out of NIMBY situations such as the Bay Area folks who ramped up demand but didn't want new power plants ruining the view.
But the REAL problem out there was the chickenshirt politicians. Still is. And New York made the SAME stupid mistakes ... you'll see as it unfolds on THIS coast this summer. But what I said was said more to whip up the attention factor HERE than to slap the left coast around. Our politicos are busy actively denying that anything can go wrong. Go wrong. Westworld style ...
as to ramped up demand we are 48th out of fifty in per capita usage.
That may be ... but it's still grown considerably or the lights would still be on. California does not have the electrons coming in for the demand and neighboring states are using their own power instead of selling it. Bottom line is California needs more rotating metal and hasn't been building it. Granted a good part of the problem is the lack of water for hydro generation in state but with even more water demand as communities grow, this situation isn't going to be improving.
"Silicon Valley" in particular with all those server farms and so many computers that weren't there before are just one factor. Power usage in office buildings has gone from SEVEN watts per square foot ten years ago to over 100 now (Edison Electric Institute is the source of this) ... I'd say that's a considerable jump in demand regardless of the lies, damned lies and statistics makers.
A good treatise on what happened in California can be found here at the Wharton site ... kinda of dry but goes into how it all came together. And also a warning to the twits in charge here in NY as to what this coming summer will bring HERE.
>>the lies, damned lies and statistics <<
the problem is not nor has it ever been an actual lack of available kwh. The problem from the get go was and is a "genius" plan of solely spot market next day purchases. PG&E, & SCE, have been deliberately purchasing power in a manner designed to fail. In turn there is solid evidence that the generating entities have deliberately taken generating capacity off line solely to spike spot market prices. This would be like the TA parking trains during rush hour and then demanding extra fares from riders.
Reminds me of a protest in Raleigh a few years back by the PETA folks that turned rather ugly - in a letter to the editor shortly thereafter, a noted local railfan and model railroader (and good friend of mine) named Craig Zeni stated something to the effect of "If G-d didn't want us to eat those nice tasty little animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat."
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hahahahaha ... I love to play a little recording we have here of plants SCREAMING when they're cut. Yes, it's true though it's up in the low ultrasonic frequencies, but veggies have feelings too. Damned plant killers! :)
to the string of threads on this subject...
Thats what is wrong here ! failure to develop alternative sorces of energy / power such as solar geo-thermal-steam wind & many others that have not even been discovered yet ! Thanks to ronnie-regan bush & the "right wing" they only want oil/nuclear power & thats it! Plus a failure to conserve energy & use it wisely!!
A lot of good oppertunities have been passed up in the past, now the chickens have come home to roost on this stuff!! aka. "rolling blackouts" / coming to a city & town near you soon !! how about that mr. unelected 'bush' ??
OFF topic
ON TOPIC ......mr.!!
alternative sorces of energy / power have not been found. Lots of $$$ have been put in to finding them. until somethink can make a profit for someone oil is best form of energy/power we have. It is Clinto/Gore who shut down the oil wells and stoped new power plants.
Nuclear is the best source of power we have. Its clean and inexpensive and the fuel is nearly inexaustable. Waste disposal wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for NIMBYS and uninformed activists. The best place for nuclear waste is the bottom of the ocean under 20,000 feet of water.
right!! destroy the ocean!! brilliant !!
It will not destory the ocean if it is in side a lead tank placed inside and old new york subway car that is painted red.
thats what you may think...of cource you are wrong!! admit it !!
He is not wrong.
Nuclear today is by far the safest, most efficient and least polluting power source there is. The only thing that blocks the development of nuclear is irrational fears of Chernobyl (something that CANNOT happen in the United States, no matter how bad things are).
Nuclear waste stored in a lead container beneath the sea is much better than all of the fossil fuel emissions from all of the old power plants out there.
and if you truly believe nuclear power plants are safe, one, I have a special deal on a Bridge, two, maybe you should research the horrendous cleanup problems at several US locations such as Hanford Paducah, Fernald. Nothing I have read gives me any confidence in US nuclear behavior.
now the truth has been told !! ( thank you sir !)
Nothing has been told.
I'm sure that he would prefer that the magic pixie fairy come in and give us electricity. Nuclear power is the SAFEST and CLEANEST form of power which can be produced efficiently. Problems will nuclear waste abound, but the environment, and more importantly, people have suffered from fossil fuels emitted by fossil fuel plants than by nuclear waste from nuclear reactors.
If somebody asks me if I want a nuclear plant in my backyard, I'd be glad to say YES.
Why should he, if he is? You never do.
-Hank
Salaam, the fact that your post is off-topic, not withstanding, your facts, as usual, are wrong. It was under the clinton administration over the past 8 years, that there was no national energy policy. You can blame Bush or reagan if you will but the only energy that king willy clinton worried about was that which he expended between the loins of the fair monica. This did not go un-noticed by a thankful albert gore, who's been collecting huge oil royalties. Here in NY, it was during the watch of the quintessential democrat, maximo-mario the first, that Shoreham was decommissioned and dismantled. Democratic energy plan = use less - pay more - drop dead.
i am still on topic re-read what i said SINCE RONNIE REGAN etc...
oil-nuclear .....thats it ! No alternative sources of energy had been
developed such as wind solar geo-thermal & who knows what could have
been developed to provide clean plentiful energy / sources etc..
also how about conservation ? turning OFF the lights / energy sources
that you dont need when you are not there / turning off the lights etc....... ON TOPIC !!!!
I said that the posting listed above was off-topic (transit). salaam claims it is on-topic and I should re-read it. So I did just that and for the life of me, I can't see where it is on topic in any shape or form. Before I start the usual tirade of 'Village Idiot' and 'knuckle Dragger', can anyone show me where salaam's post (#186756) is on topic.
since you are baggging on california etc.. & since electric power does power all RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEMS WORLDWIDE etc..
post (# 186756) & really all other posts are on topic & or close!!
& I for sure has nothing to do with the rest of your rantings & bull_!
how about you many OFF TOPIC irrelevant past posts etc??....
give me a break!!
next time you visit the ornage empire museum in peris california show me your "" knuckle dragger " I will show you what dug & put the rails down for the PE systems ! An amazing little wonder this machine is!!
preserved for all to see i will post it in my yahoo photos section soon!! I beleive it was called the ""KEYSTONE DIGGER""
>>>since electric power does power all RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEMS WORLDWIDE etc..<<
UMM--ever heard of diesel?
i will post the " KEYSTONE DIGGER " on my yahoo photos page soon!
i beleive it was a diesel unit ( to help build & do maint. ) etc..
for the once PE system the construction unit is on display for all
to see at the largest rail transit museum in the western united states!! THE ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM a link to this is on this page!!
i will become a member next month / a family yearly member etc...
subwaysurf i am quite on top of this subject & know a few things!!
( thank you ) !!!!!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
call my bluff sir !!!!!!!!!
Train Dude,
Regardless of what happens, there is no legitimate reason to take up name-calling.
I have a better solution, if you would be willing to consider it. If you think a thread is really off-topic or offensive, stop posting to it. Ignore it, and move on to another conversation. If the situation persists (eg the argument spills over to other threads or becomes more offensive), let Dave Pirmann handle it (send him a private feedback note).
Come on, let's drop this and move on to something else...
Don't forget - the MTA 63rd St Connector Hearing's on Tuesday. Go to MTA's Website for details. LIC High School, 14-30 Broadway in Queens. Starts at 6PM. Hope to see many of you there!
I have a better solution, if you would be willing to consider it.
Ron, no offense but I'm really not willing to consider it!
The only part you got right was the 'failure to conserve'
-Hank
Salaam,
The complaints about the lack of alternative energy sources are a bit misplaced.
In the US last year, out of 94 "quads" of energy used nationwide, 1 was from solar/wind/geothermal, and 3-4 from hydro. The rest was supplied through importation, fossil fuel (coal, oil, natural gas) and nuclear.
Solar power is limited in its capacity at the earth's surface (max recoverable 1 kw/sq meter) regardless of solar cell efficiency, which stands now at 10% (pretty good compared to 10 years ago, when it was less than 5%). Southern California Edison did operate a 1MW plant called Solar One whose mirrors focused sunlight on a tower top and created steam which fed a turbine. But their biggest proposed design was 10MW, a fraction of what a 1,000-1,500 MW nuclear plant can with a fraction of the "footprint" (amount of land needed) And they're still too expensive for widder use, and degrade with time. Wind energy is worth going after, but in California environmentalists don't like wind farms because they can chop up condors and other rare birds, and homeowners don't like them because of the noise.
Technology will improve all of these options, and each has workable (not perfect) solutions for pitfalls available to them. Wind mills get quieter, and maybe advanced sensors will stop the blades when a big bird approaches; solar cells will get more efficient (but you still can't cover acres with them); current nuclear reactor designs have passive safety technology that puts them several orders of magnitude above anything designed in the 1960's and we have a very good, workable, monitorable solution available for waste disposal (which technology will improve greatly over the years - even reprocessing can now be done without generating any plutonium at all).
And, of course, if you use natural gas in place of oil orcoal, you reduce polluting emissions.
But we have to be open-minded and flexible to avail ourselves of all these options.
New York and San Francisco have subways and commuter trains which save energy, reduce sprawl and help the environment. It's worth using all our options to keep these systems running.
If we don't watch out, those damn environmentalists are going to sink us!!
Its not power shortage, its Money shortage. The prices have been deregulated out of reach.
Cleaner is better.
Buy up the Russian Baltic Nuclear fleet, use them instead.
Actually on world news tonite they said that there isn't power available for any price. The western supply system is maxed out. The diesel locomotives would be use to prevent blackouts untill more gnerating stations can be built.
Jersey Mike:
Reusing the alternator sets would be a great idea in helping California with its power shortage. This way old equipment doesn't have to be thrown out.
BMTJeff
Locomotives are often used to provide emergency power for a school or other emergency shelter in snowy areas in the winter when a major storm takes out power for days or weeks as happens every now and then upstate and in Canada ... and it works, sorta.
But to solve California's problem, it isn't practical at all because of one little phenomena you have in trying to feed a power grid - a little thing called "synchronization" ... the field coils in a generator have to be synchronized IN PHASE with the grid lines or you can have a generator nulling out another generator's phase and causing destruction to both generators, stalling them. This is what happened when the lights went out in 1965 in NYC when Con Ed thought they could power the grid. As the load caused the generators to be unable to maintain phase integrity, everything died with tremendous damage to Con Ed's generators.
Nice idea but you'd have to roll a loco out to an area that would be powered only by the loco - you wouldn't be able to backfeed anybody with them.
Well if they can black out a piece of the power grid they can also switch a grid to a different power source. If power was running low the power company would switch a factory or a neighbor hood off the grid and onto the locomotive.
Yes ... THIS could be done (assuming that it was one of the rare and few AC locomotives) but a lot of industrial equipment wants to see three phase 220 or 440 and not the typical 600 DC ... I've been in situations where it was necessary to string 120 volt lamps in strings of 5 - that works ... but it is far more practical to just use a standard Cummins diesel powered generator set that's built into such facilities for such contingencies.
Merely trying to lay out the practicum here which is the reason you only see locos used in rare, desperate emergency situations as substitute power plants ... during the great ice storm of a few years ago that hit Toronto to Montreal and took out most of the trees in the Adirondacks that went on for nearly four weeks (power outages) a few locos were provided by CPRail/D&H in some of the more isolated areas. The rest of us had to make our own electrons.
While a loco can provide a good amount of power in a pinch, it ain't one of those portable turbines ...
All Diesel locomotives with powerplants at 3000 hp or more have alternators and convert AC to DC (and then back to AC if the unit has AC motors). I am not sure if the alternator is single or three phaze, but if the units are only going into storage they could be hard wired by the power company (or anybody else who needs power on demand) into the supply system for isolated emergency use. I'm watching the news and there are many factories and whatnot that are being shut down. many factories have rail sidings where one of these surplus locomotives can be wheeled in and hooked up. Also Amtrak should be ready to hook in major terminals with their HEP capable engines.
Looks like someone stole an idea...
-Hank
On Metro, Riding All the Rails
Man Believed to Be First To Travel Entire System
__
By Lyndsey Layton
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, January 16, 2001; Page B03
There are people who harbor quiet dreams throughout their lives. Some want to see the Taj Mahal before they die. Others want to catch a big fish. Alan J. Sussman wanted to ride Metro. All of it. In one day.
So yesterday, two days after the original 103-mile Metro system was
completed, Sussman set out to become the first person to ride the entire subway system. He said he made the trip in slightly less than eight hours, boarding at Glenmont at 8:39 a.m. and emerging from the same station at 4:27 p.m.
"It sounds really crazy, but I had to get it out of my system," said
Sussman, 53, an electronics engineer with the Federal Aviation
Administration who lives in Silver Spring. "It's just something I had to do."
Sussman fell in love with the New York City subway system while growing up in New London, Conn. "There's something about subways. I love subways, especially the old ones," said Sussman as he sat in a train barreling through a tunnel between Wheaton and Glenmont. "Something about conquering the darkness of the tunnel, about traveling fast."
While still a boy, Sussman read about a passenger who rode the entire New York system in one shot, taking more than 24 hours to complete the trip. "I was fascinated by that," he said. It remained in the back of his mind. "And I said to myself, once they finish the Metro, I'm going to do it."
On Saturday, Metro opened the last stretch of the Green Line, 6.5 miles of track between Anacostia and Branch Avenue, allowing Sussman to launch his plan.
He packed a knapsack with provisions -- Pepto-Bismol, Excedrin, a cell phone and a bottle of water. "Although I didn't drink anything, because I knew there'd be no bathrooms," he said. He also sneaked three Milky Way Lite candy bars, surreptitiously snacking along the way, though the system bans riders from eating. "They're good for quick energy," he said.
In a briefcase, Sussman carried Jewish texts. "The Metro is very conducive to Torah study," said Sussman, an Orthodox Jew.
He also had equipment to document his trip -- a chart on which he recorded the departure time from each station. At the end of each line, Sussman collected a time-and-date-stamped transfer card and got a bystander to take a Polaroid picture of him in front of the station sign. He neatly stapled each transfer card and taped each Polaroid to his chart. At some point along the line, he lost both the stapler and the tape. "But I have all the Polaroids," he said.
He will tell you that the Red Line is the longest to travel, taking one hour and one minute. Slightly shorter is the Orange Line, at 57 minutes. His favorite is the Green Line, especially the stretch between Greenbelt and College Park, where he could look out the window and see the green field of the College Park Aviation Museum.
Metro officials said Sussman appears to be the titleholder. "To our
knowledge, he's the first," said Steven Taubenkibel, a Metro spokesman.
"We're honored that someone was able to take the entire system in one day."
Sussman also thinks he's alone in glory. "I can't believe anyone else would be so crazy," he said.
As he collected the last time-and-date-stamped card at the end of the day, he felt tired but very pleased. "I'm glad I documented it," he said. "If someone does it faster, hey, that's fine. But I'll always be the first."
The Gauntlet has been thrown down.
Who? Who? Who will snatch it up, break the reining champions record in less time and consume 4 Milkyway Bars Non-lite?
Let go out there! We're talking sacred honor at stake!
If your afraid, take a friend , a witness.
The world waits.
avid
P.S.
I'd go but, I have to put my Clip-on bowtie collection in order.
There are some things in life the whole world doesn't need to or care about knowing. Riding the whole metro system in one day is one of them. I love riding trains, but I could care less if I ride the whole system in one time. More power to him, but I'd rather spend that time with my girlfriend.
I've tortured my fiancee similarly with a train trip. She used to be perfectly willing to go along with me to do any railfan-related exploration. Now she won't go unless I promise her "adequate climate control"
Those of you who were on the NYCRRS tour will understand.
-Hank
My girlfriend likes to tease me about these things, so I didn't tell her that I went to the opening of the Green Line the other day. People just don't understand the fun!!!! Very frustrating.
A little late, my friend.
What I don't understand is how could he study Torah and also record when the train left each station? The maximum time between stations is 5 minutes. Metro Center and Gallery Place are about 45 seconds apart.
What I want to know is what he did about farecards.
I assume he bought a ticket at Glenmont for the next terminal or transfer he would use (giving him time to get out and in) and buying an identical ticket to use to re-enter and use it to exit at Glenmont at the end of the trip.
He could have saved money by buying a ticket to Wheaton and getting off there to switch cards.
What???
You have four hours to enter and exit again at any station.
The article says he works for the government, so he probably gets those Metrochecks that Clinton made elligible to all government employees in the DC area and used one of them.
Doesn't matter. All passes/Metrocheks/farecards/SmarTrips have a four hour limit.
But can you enter and exit at the same place? How much would it cost?
Anyway, what I said the first time is plausible, he got of at a terminal at some point, left the system, and re-entered it.
It costs $1.10 to enter and then exit at the same station if you hold a regular farecard.
Chaohwa
That's a helluva lot cheaper than BART's $3.50 for entering and leaving at the same station.
$1.10. You can do it with a SmarTrip or farecard, probably with Metrochek and I don't know about farecards and passes.
From the article, I believe that he used one-day pass.
Since he went out to have people take a picture of him at the station sign of each terminal, he had to go out of the turnstile of each terminal. He used transfers as evidence when he entered a terminal because the time on a transfer showed when he arrived at a station.
Transit buff does things differently, doesn't he?
Chaohwa
Also, since the day he traveled is a holiday (MLK birthday), he can use one-day pass before 9:30 AM.
Chaohwa
Not to abuse my privileges...went thru my slide collection and reduced matters considerably..surplus slide sets of traction matters various NYC Transit, out of New York area, then steam, diesels, bus, trlley, trolley coach available. Reasonable. No individual slides, all in sets. Those interested plz send me an e-mail Thanks. ed.
Several times in the past, Pork has mentioned an idea about having subway riders pay for the subway, and car drivers to pay for the highway, or something to that extent. I never really gave it much thought until a couple days ago and it sounds like a good idea. With this method, the up front cost of any transportation would be a lot more expensive than now. So this would be a huge negative to the public. They would rather have the costs spread out so it doesn't seem as expensive. However, with this system, there will be no gas tax, lower property taxes and sales tax, since these taxes will no longer fund transportation. Also, transit will most likely be the cheapest option, so more people will see how much more cheaper it is to ride transit. Here's a system that could implemented:
For transit:
For mainline routes, it would be distance based.
During rush hour, since many more people would be riding, the overall cost per passenger will be lower, therefore, rush hour fares will be lower than off peak. Opposite of usual practices for transit systems.
For surface routes, like buses or light rail, I think a flat fare would be better, since people would mainly use them for short distance travel. Here, off peak fares would be lower than peak, so people won't feel like they can't leave their house to get groceries, or what have you.
Unlimited ride cards. I can't think of way to implement something like this, anyone have suggestions?
For Highways:
Have a distance based toll system
My only experince with a distance based toll system is the highway you take from Philly to Hershey, PA. Their system is reverse distance based, the longer you travel, the less it costs. It's to eliminate local trips, I assume. However, with my system, it would be regualar distance based, the longer you drive, the more you pay.
The toll booths will be set up like at that highway in PA-at exit and entrance ramps. They give you a ticket when you enter the highway, and you pay once you exit the road. There will also be booths at the fringe or borders of a city on the highway set up the same way as the other booths.
For travellers passing through the city, they would only pay the minimum toll, instead of the maximum.
Surface routes would be free. It would be way too hard to try to toll every little road. It would also handicap mobilty severely, like the buses thing above.
The toll would be the same all day. Overnights, the highways would be free.
I see the highways and transit as competing aganist each other, to earn the most money or improvments and expansion. Highways and transit could be seperate gov't owned corperations like Amtrak or the post office.
Fine except for one thing...the cost as presented doesn't include the greatest cost of motor vehicle transit, the huge amount of land it requires, and pollution it produces. Vastly more than rail transit (or freight).
Transit riders are equal owners of that space, and have equal rights to it. My thought is that having drivers pay for rail transit RIGHTS OF WAY is a fair "rent" payment for those who give up their space on the road. Moreover, transit stations add to the value of property, so their maintenance can and should be supported by property taxes. Facilities for motor vehicles (ie. parking lots) detract from the value of adjacent property.
(Surface routes would be free. It would be way too hard to try to toll every little road. It would also handicap mobilty severely, like the buses thing above.)
That isn't fair competition. Perhaps the ROW should be deducted from this pay for use scheme, or fuel taxes could pay for "base" service, tolls for express highways and acess to congested areas.
(For surface routes, like buses or light rail, I think a flat fare would be better, since people would mainly use them for short
distance travel. Here, off peak fares would be lower than peak, so people won't feel like they can't leave their house to get
groceries, or what have you.)
Unlike the subway, which could probably break even on an "auto-equivalent basis," buses are a social service for those too young, old, sick or poor to drive. For example, school buses are more common than any other kind. Don't think buses will break even, even with the cost of the ROW and bus shelters discounted.
Fine except for one thing...the cost as presented doesn't include the greatest cost of motor vehicle transit, the huge amount of land it requires, and pollution it produces. Vastly more than rail transit (or freight).
Have them run privately and pay property taxes and pollution fees. This is a good idea, pollute all you want, but pay dearly. Obviously some pollution would be illegal completely.
Fine except for one thing...the cost as presented doesn't include the greatest cost of motor vehicle transit, the huge amount of land it requires, and pollution it produces. Vastly more than rail transit (or freight).
Have them run privately and pay property taxes and pollution fees. This is a good idea, pollute all you want, but pay dearly. Obviously some pollution would be illegal completely.
Transit riders are equal owners of that space, and have equal rights to it.
No they're not. That's a very socialist way of looking at things. Who ever owns the land figures out who should have the rights to it.
That isn't fair competition. Perhaps the ROW should be deducted from this pay for use scheme, or fuel taxes could pay for "base" service, tolls for express highways and acess to congested areas.
The local roads could lack through service. There could be tolls at entrances to the next jurisdiction. Property taxes would still be used by the jurisdiction for the local roads, entry tolls would be to charge outsiders.
Just put a meter on every car. Each time you pull into a gas station, you pay the charge on the meter on top of the price of the gas.
Or, you could put the meter on the gas pump and just include the fee in the price of the gas.
"the cost as presented doesn't include the GREATEST cost of motor vehicle transit, the huge amount of land it requires, and pollution it produces..."
Care to quantify that???
("the cost as presented doesn't include the GREATEST cost of motor vehicle transit, the huge amount of land it requires, and pollution it produces..." Care to quantify that??? )
Well, you need some road space even without private motor vehicles. My street, and most NYC side streets, are 60 feet high. Come up with the land rent on all street and highway ROWs wider the 60 feet, plus their upkeep and maintenace, plus land used for free parking, and you get the land cost of the auto.
It's so high, we can't afford it. So instead of taking more land to build more superhighways, you get Metro Atlanta -- choke to a crawl. That's because people are paying in time, not money.
As for pollution, it's harder to quantify without a market. You'd have to figure out the amount of pollution the atmosphere could absorb without damage, and auction it off.
If you tax car owners for the 'land cost' of autos then you are in effect taxing them at least twice. Once through the NYC income and sales taxes, and then through the 'land cost tax'. And doesn't our weight based vehicle registration perform that function now? I know it's a liberal's dream to do this but you know it will never happen. The 'pollution tax' sounds like the 'carbon tax' idea that Al Gore espoused at one time, and I think something similar on an international scale (meaning the US gets soaked) is proposed in the Kyoto Protocols.
That theory on the "value" of the land used for streets is all wet. If most of those streets weren't as wide as they are, then the land fronting them wouldn't be worth as much as it is. Take Fifth Avenue as an example. As I understand your theory, by narrowing it to two lanes, the land in the other three lanes would be worth $600 per square foot per year in the 50's. But if you did that, (1) the land which now gets $600 per sq ft wouldn't fetch that much and (2) the land that does front the two lanes you keep wouldn't get it either because it would be a bitch to get to with traffic in front of it all day.
Same holds true for highway land through open spaces. Narrow the roadway, and the land next to it still isn't worth anything. But the surrounding land values fall.
In both cases, the municipality gets back some land -- which is far less valuable than your theory would suggest -- and loses property tax revenue when values fall.
CG
(If most of those streets weren't as wide as they are, then the
land fronting them wouldn't be worth as much as it is. Take Fifth Avenue as an example.)
NYC actually proves the rule. It's dense, transit-oriented areas have much less street space, leaving more room for other things.
As for paying twice, motor fuel taxes and similar charges (NY actually is light on this -- some states seem to have big license taxes) barely cover the cost of maintaining and upgrading the roads. They don't cover the cost of local streets.
Except in NYC, where transportation taxes and fees broadly defined (motor vehicle taxes, sales taxes on motor vehicles and fuel, licenses, parking tickts, airport revenues, transit fares, dedicated MTA taxes) seem to be making a substantial profit which is spent elsewhere.
The problem with your system is that it can only cover limited access highways and or bridges. Most roads are small local roads that you said can't be tolled. People get gas to run their cars on roads. A gas tax is an easy way to tax the use of roads. It dosen't involve the costly employment of toll booths and toll takers. It also encourages people to get more fuel effective cars. If tolls are employed they should be used to to target out of state trucks. There should be ways for locals to avoid paying the toll. Politically, eerybody wins. Lower gas taxes and locals don't have to pay tolls. Its a giant free lunch, unlike CT where everybody pays through the nose. They need to bring back tolls on the CT turnpike, bridges and Merritt parkway.
What price emptier roads?
Jan 18th 2001
From The Economist print edition
UNTIL recently, the idea of charging for scarce road space was dismissed as political suicide, but some politicians have advocated road-pricing and lived to tell the tale. Ken Livingstone, London’s mayor, for instance, plans to introduce road-pricing in the capital within the next two years. Now a new study for the European Commission takes the argument further. Enticingly entitled “Revenues from Efficient Pricing”, it argues that current transport taxes should be replaced by charges to reflect the true marginal costs of different forms of transport—not only the additional costs of each journey, but also the costs of pollution, congestion and accidents.
Marginal social-cost pricing, the economic jargon for this form of charging, would produce 50% more revenue than current taxes on fuel and vehicles. It would also recover the full costs of transport infrastructure. The cost burden would shift from rail to road (see chart) because the marginal cost of each additional car journey is greater than that of an additional rail journey. In London, for instance, motorists would have to fork out up to three times as much as they do now for rush hour journeys. Underground fares, by contrast, would fall by more than half.
Mr Livingstone’s plans are modest, by comparison. He plans a £5 daily charge for drivers in part of inner London. This will have a modest impact on traffic. Rana Roy, author of the EC study, predicts that if the scheme were implemented, by 2005 road journeys in London would decline by 30% while rail journeys would increase by 45%.
The technology is not yet in place to introduce an efficient road-pricing system, but it is getting there. Microwave radio systems, allowing cars to communicate with roadside charging units, are already in use in several European countries. Bus and lorry operators are using American global positioning satellites to track their vehicles on a minute-to-minute basis. With digitised maps, such systems could calculate which vehicles used what roads when, and charge them accordingly. The capital cost would be around £350 per vehicle; the operating cost, according to the EC, would be less than 3% of revenues.
Heavy goods vehicles are likely to be the first to use this technology. At present, European lorries have to purchase a licence to travel on most European motorways. An electronic charging system is emerging as its natural successor.
The political hurdles to introducing an efficient road-pricing system are greater than the technological ones. Although there are big social gains implicit in this scheme (less congestion, less pollution and fewer accidents) and big winners (public-transport users, mostly), there are also big losers. And as the government learned last summer, the motorists’ lobby is a formidable creature.
Sounds like an interesting idea. Doubtful that something like that would every fly here in the United States, but I think the fundamental idea behind it makes plenty of sense (probably why it wouldn't work here). I've always held that tolls should be collected on all expressways, and that revenue from the tolls and a greatly-increased gas tax should be funnelled toward more sustainable forms of transit such as subways and interurban high-speed rail.
But like I said, it's doubtful this would ever happen on a nationwide level; it will be fought tooth-and-nail by everybody who has a vested self-interest in spewing exhaust into the air.
-- David
Chicago, IL
(Sounds like an interesting idea. Doubtful that something like that would every fly here in the United States)
The one place it could fly is Manhattan. Since it is an island, it is easy to control access with tolls, and many of those driving in are SO rich that they'd gladly pay to get other people off the streets. Other rich people live in Manhattan, and would want less pollution. Most of the non-rich are on transit. The only losers are the police who get free parking in Manhattan (I'd expect to hear from Mr. Rosen shortly), and other with similar deals.
The marginal cost idea is central. I've argued that drivers owe transit riders "rent" for giving up their share of the road, and this rent should be used to maintain the transit ROW. Clearly it is only those who drive at congested times who owe this "rent," since those driving in the middle of the night do not benefit from others using transit (since there is plenty of room). Perhaps what we need is a base toll which, with fuel taxes and other charges, maintains the road and street system, and peak hour tolls, which are transferred to rail.
The one place it could fly is Manhattan. Since it is an island, it is easy to control access with tolls, and many of those driving in
are SO rich that they'd gladly pay to get other people off the streets. Other rich people live in Manhattan, and would want less
pollution. Most of the non-rich are on transit. The only losers are the police who get free parking in Manhattan (I'd expect to hear from Mr. Rosen shortly), and other with similar deals.
As I've said before, an idea like this is unfair to people who are just passing through Manhattan.
(As I've said before, an idea like this is unfair to people who are just passing through Manhattan.)
Hey, they're using the scarce road space, same as those driving TO Manhattan. Having Long Islanders (including Brooklyn and Queens) use Manhattan (or all places) as a though route, other than on a Sunday, is INSANE.
Having Long Islanders (including Brooklyn and Queens) use Manhattan (or all places) as a though route, other than on a Sunday, is INSANE.
What if they're going to Jersey City or Hoboken?
(Having Long Islanders (including Brooklyn and Queens) use Manhattan (or all places) as a though route, other than on
a Sunday, is INSANE.
What if they're going to Jersey City or Hoboken?)
Those places are fairly accessible by mass transit. They should therefore pay for the same reason those going TO Manhattan should pay.
A better question is what about those driving to Florida or Ohio, and trucks to Long Island. Perhaps they ought to build that freight tunnel so trucks can piggyback on trains. Perhaps they ought to build that Oyster Bay Bridge, or a least additional high speed ferrys, as was discussed some time ago on this board.
You can pay me now in cash, or pay me by sitting in traffic until later. The most auto-oriented guy at City Planning has been taking the LIRR out to Nassau County (where he's from) every night to visit his sick mother in the hospital, instead of driving. Why? Because the traffic is SO bad now that it's faster to take the LIRR than to drive, even to and from Brooklyn and Mineola rather than Manhattan.
Because of the size of Manhattan, it's difficult to avoid it.
Build a bridge connecting the Cross County Parkway with New Jersey, and a bridge from Brooklyn to Bayonne and on to Newark. And build the MID, LOWER AND UPPER Manhattan Expressways (with a 125th St to NJ Bridge).
Dangerous can of worms to open. Up here in Selkirk and Voorheesville where the population is about 2,200 people in each, there is no subway, no commuter rail or any other form of passenger service. It's also extremely hilly which precludes bicycles and other city fetishes. Folks up here pay taxes which ultimately go to NYC's subways and pay MTA taxes when in fact there isn't any railroad to ride.
Any such formulas would only get folks up here demanding OUR subway (there aren't even BUSSES around here) since the only real highway we have here is the NYS Thruway with hefty tolls on it so folks downstate can use the Thruway for free. Think for a second of the can of worms this idea would open up as far as folks upstate go. I can't see our chickenshirt politicians even daring to try this one as much as it WOULD be a great idea where there ARE trains available.
Just wanted to toss in another perspective that folks in the city tend not to think about. There *is* life north of Yonkers. :)
(Dangerous can of worms to open. Up here in Selkirk and Voorheesville where the population is about 2,200 people in each, there is no subway, no commuter rail or any other form of passenger service.)
Lots of square footage of state-funded roads per capita, however, and not a lot of state taxes collected.
(The only real highway we have here is the NYS Thruway with hefty tolls on it so folks downstate can use the Thruway for free.)
The purpose of the tolls on the Thruway is to allow a prior generation of residents of the "fleece and flee state" to fleece and flee. You are paying off the Thruway for the third time. We are paying for the Second Avenue Subway bonds.
You are paying off the Thruway for the third time.
Are you counting the fact that the Feds relatively recently reimbursed $$billions for the Thruway as a pre-Interstate project, and the tolls are still still there? That money went into the general fund, AFAIK.
Maryland has combines all toll revenue into a Consolidated Transportation Fund. All Maryland highway bonds are funded by the fund.
The Baltimore Harbor Tunnel, The Fort McHenry Tunnel, the Northeast Expressway (I-95) the Chesapeake Bay Bridge and the Rt 301 Bridge over the Potomac were all funded with their own bonds and the tolls went to recover the bonds. When the bonds were paid off, new Consolidated bonds were issued. And so it goes.
We will be paying tolls long after we are all gone.
The Consolidated Fund does help transit, so some rail good comes from the highway tolls.
The "highway you take between Philly and Hershey" to which you refer is, I believe, the Pennsylvania Turnpike, a.k.a. I-76 (except the portion north of Philly and the NE Extension). It was the first limited access toll highway in the U.S., and was actually built partly with Sunday picnicers in mind. You can still see pull-offs with picnic tables, but these days who wants to enjoy cold-cuts and exhaust fumes together. Some exits are spaced up to 60 miles apart in Western Pennsylvania.
Anyway, to tie this to NY transit, there's a controversy now regarding Easypass -- the toll-collectors' unions are fearing for their livlihoods (they should). Electronic toll collection has been in place on the Philly-Harrisburg segment for some time, and the Turnpike Commission (yes, the highway is "run" by an independent agency, NOT PennDOT) wants to Easypass the whole road.
The turnpike is better maintained than Pennsylvania's other interstates (which is no great feat). I'm not sure, but I think the tolls pay for the road -- maybe there's a state infusion of cash for a major project, I don't know. I do know that PennDOT doesn't touch it.
PA's roads are atrocious. This is because of 2 things. Penna. is a state full of many small towns and the state's road network is quite dense. I've heard there are more miles of road in PA than in any other state. PennDOT's resouces must cover many more miles than most other states, and I assume it's always stretched thin (especially since Republicans are running both houses of the legislature and there's one in the Governor's office -- they like tax cuts, not spending, but it's not like 'working families' can choose to spend their tax rebate on filling a pothole!). The other thing is, quite simply, trucks. There's a reason we call it the Keystone State. It's on the way to everything. Penna. is lax in the passage and enforcement of trucking regulations. I can count on one hand the times I have seen a weigh station open.
Meanwhile, how many railroads have been converted to trails in Pennsylvania? Seems like a waste of valuable industrial resources to me. Spoken like a true foamer.
The Gauntlet has been thrown down.
Who? Who? Who will snatch it up, break the reining champions record in less time and consume 4 Milkyway Bars Non-lite?
Let go out there! We're talking sacred honor at stake!
If your afraid, take a friend , a witness.
The world waits.
avid
P.S.
I'd go but, I have to put my Clip-on bowtie collection in order.
There are some things in life the whole world doesn't need to or care about knowing. Riding the whole metro system in one day is one of them. I love riding trains, but I could care less if I ride the whole system in one time. More power to him, but I'd rather spend that time with my girlfriend.
I've tortured my fiancee similarly with a train trip. She used to be perfectly willing to go along with me to do any railfan-related exploration. Now she won't go unless I promise her "adequate climate control"
Those of you who were on the NYCRRS tour will understand.
-Hank
My girlfriend likes to tease me about these things, so I didn't tell her that I went to the opening of the Green Line the other day. People just don't understand the fun!!!! Very frustrating.
Check out this picture on Ebay. Anybody know what the location is?
I suspect we are viewing the fulton ave El, with the Broadway el above.
I'm guessing.
avid
Hey, Bob!
I gotcha covered....that would be Eastern Parkway station (Jamaica-bound), with Gate Cars sitting at the platform. Obviously, this is before the addition of the giant escalator at the complex.
BMTman
THATS WHAT I SAID 11 MINUTES AGO. Thank you for the verification.
avid
"guessing" vs. "gotcha covered"
...on the NEXT Rosie O'Donnell
But it was myfinal answer!
avid
Let's not get ugly now, boyz
Peace,
ANDEE
[Obviously, this is before the addition of the giant escalator at the complex.
BMTman]
Before the escalators? I always thought the escalators were always part of that transfer. The photo seems taken from the same open windows that many railfan photos I've seen were photographed.
I guess when the rehab is finished, this photo vantage point will vanish into history. Perhaps glass blocks in place of windows ?
Bill "Newkirk"
That part of the Broadway Junction complex has already had work done to it and I'm not aware of it getting much more rehab than it has already. The Canarsie End is of course due for some serious rehab work.
BTW, Bill, I left last night's show after the footage of the Rockaway's. Was there any other NYC-related footage run later on?
BMTman
After a meeting at Borough Hall I decided to ride a red bird on the #2 from Borough Hall to E. 238th Street instead of taking the Woodlawn line, which is rather direct for me. The trip took an hour and fifteen minutes...much too slow (11:55 am - 1:10 pm). The T/O treated every yellow signal almost as a red signal, coming close to a complete stop at each one. The brake was never released in a timely manner. We must have spent a day under the East River and there was no traffic in front of us. My search for new trains coming the other way yielded nothing. However, the condition of the railroad was very good. The stations on the lower west side are just beautiful and a nice job was done on Lenox Avenue. The new signals are in service north of E. 180th and to E. 238th St. on White Plains Road and the older ones are being removed. The big fence on both sides of the center track remains. The 6430 series of cars sat brand spanking new in the "Boston & Westchester" yard. It's time to start to log in what will be among the last "front window times" for me. Can't tell you how much of my life was spent at subway and elevated front windows years ago. That brings back the memory of one perpetually slow T/O on the Third Avenue Thru Express many moons ago. If it was genetic, then I caught his grandchild on the #2 line today!
>>...The trip took an hour and fifteen minutes...
All the more power to those of us (Salaam, Myself)
who pucker up long enough to videotape the line..
Yeah you heard right.
The Notorius A.B.E. (that's me) will be teaming up with his friend and fellow transit geek, Christopher Lee (webmaster of maxlightrail.com, and just recently, webmaster of Abe's former teen redhead photo gallery, lakewoodhrc.cjb.net.) to hit some EastCoast transit systems. The tentative itenerary is as follows: (scroll down, this message is weird)
Monday, March 26th
SPUNKY (ABE):Leave Seattle on plane, fly to Boston. Spend night in Boston with girl named Laura.
SCRUBBY BOY (CHRIS):Leave Portland on plane, spend night in Boston in hotel or with as-yet-unmet chick from internet.
Tuesday, March 27th
SPUNKY (ABE): Spend day riding Boston transit with Chris, taking pictures. Any Boston Subtalkers are welcome to meet with us. Spend night at Laura's again.
SCRUBBY BOY (CHRIS):Spend day riding Boston transit with Abe, take evening Acela to Newark, NJ to meet friend Dan. Spend night at Dan's.
Wednesday, March 28th
SPUNKY (ABE): Spend day doing touristy Boston stuff with various people. Take evening Acela to Newark and meet grandpa, stay with grandpa.
SCRUBBY BOY (CHRIS):Spend day riding some NJTransit lines, take Subway to spend evening with chick from Queens met on internet.
Thursday, March 29th
SPUNKY (ABE):Subway! We will spend the whole day doing nothing but trains practically. Any Subtalkers wanna hang with us then by all means email me @ talgo79@aol.com. So far, "definites" are riding the #7, J/Z to Jamaica, Myrtle, Brighton, and CPWExpress on the 'A'.
SCRUBBY BOY (CHRIS):Same as Abe
Friday, March 30th
SPUNKY (ABE): MORE TRAINS!
SCRUBBY BOY (CHRIS): MORE TRAINS!
Saturday, March 31st
SPUNKY (ABE):Go to Newark, fly home
SCRUBBY BOY (CHRIS):Go to NewYorkPenn, catch train to Chicago and spend a few days there.
So there you have it. Any comments, critiscisms, questions, or suggestions please reply. Does anyone know a good Mexican restaraunt in Harlem?
---Abe a.k.a. Spunky of Light Rail Fame
so NO ONE wants to hang with me or Chris in nyc?
man we really feel loved now. for details go back one message in this thread.
-Abe
Let me know if you plan on coming to Philly for a little while.
nope...Chris was thinking about passing through there on his way home but he ditched it for the Chicago tour. I grew up in Chicago and know the whole El system by heart so I'm just flying directyly home after NYC...
I may be able to join you guys - nothing definite now, but I will know as the time gets closer.
Standby . . .
The Hudson-Bergen and Newark subway are on our to-do list...
We plan on getting some good shots of the Redbirds, Slants, and R142s (I think they're cool looking - shoot me if you must)...but we were thinking maybe R9 too?
Now you will have salaam after you
hey spunky... how can i not respond to your message heading... i am only surprised that more subtalkers haven't joined in with expressions of love and admiration for me... anyway, if you want to come over and see the r9 cab, you're welcome to... although i no longer receive visitors at home, it can be seen from the street if you are standing in the right spot... seriously, as the time when you are visiting nears, if i am not institutionalized at the time, i will try to meet you... i hope the pcc cars are still running in march... they are about the only thing worth riding in the northeast...
PATCO Budd cars are still worth riding. Same goes for SEPTA Silverliners, The Redbirds, the Slants and the CMSL RDC cars.
you're living in a realityworld mike... the only things worth riding are the old pressed steel broad street cars, the norristown brill bullets, the pccs,the r9s, triplex cars, and last but not least the c-49 mack buses... go back to sleep and live a little bit....
Brill bullet car 205 is still running at Rockhill Trolley Museum (with a trolley pole).
Not exactly Harlem, but on Broadway around 123rd Street (just below the 125th street station on the 1/9) is Mi Mexico - excellent food, frequented by natives (the employees speak very limited English), and the Corona is ice cold.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Be sure to see the mattapan-ashmont line in Boston.
I will not be in Boston that week
Spunky, Sounds like a fun time, we expect a full report !
- Boston: Make sure you do all the colors ... BTW you can order maps & day passes on line, I did last year.
- NYC: Thur. & Fri. some of us would love to join you after work on one of these days. So, as the time draws nearer & you have some idea of where we could meet up with you a 5 or 6. Our friend Steve from Denver was doing all the IRT lines 2 years ago with a couple of local SubTalkers & met a couple more of us at Coney Island ... we did hot dogs at Nathan's then a little railfanning with him after.
P.S. I'm still holding that map for you.
Mr t__:^)
That was a nice Brighton express run that day, wasn't it?
I hoping the "with friends" meant you were coming with some of your teen redhead models ;). Oh, well; I might be up for some after-work railfanning anyway.
A little late, my friend.
What I don't understand is how could he study Torah and also record when the train left each station? The maximum time between stations is 5 minutes. Metro Center and Gallery Place are about 45 seconds apart.
What I want to know is what he did about farecards.
I assume he bought a ticket at Glenmont for the next terminal or transfer he would use (giving him time to get out and in) and buying an identical ticket to use to re-enter and use it to exit at Glenmont at the end of the trip.
He could have saved money by buying a ticket to Wheaton and getting off there to switch cards.
What???
You have four hours to enter and exit again at any station.
The article says he works for the government, so he probably gets those Metrochecks that Clinton made elligible to all government employees in the DC area and used one of them.
Doesn't matter. All passes/Metrocheks/farecards/SmarTrips have a four hour limit.
But can you enter and exit at the same place? How much would it cost?
Anyway, what I said the first time is plausible, he got of at a terminal at some point, left the system, and re-entered it.
It costs $1.10 to enter and then exit at the same station if you hold a regular farecard.
Chaohwa
That's a helluva lot cheaper than BART's $3.50 for entering and leaving at the same station.
$1.10. You can do it with a SmarTrip or farecard, probably with Metrochek and I don't know about farecards and passes.
From the article, I believe that he used one-day pass.
Since he went out to have people take a picture of him at the station sign of each terminal, he had to go out of the turnstile of each terminal. He used transfers as evidence when he entered a terminal because the time on a transfer showed when he arrived at a station.
Transit buff does things differently, doesn't he?
Chaohwa
Also, since the day he traveled is a holiday (MLK birthday), he can use one-day pass before 9:30 AM.
Chaohwa
I'm waiting after school at Van Wyck Blvd for the usual 2:22 PM train, but by :25 it still hasn't shown. Then, I see the headlights of a train approaching, but from an odd angle. Then, lo and behold, an F roars by on the express at about 40 MPH, carrying passengers! I was thrilled to see this, until I realized I was not on it. Of course 30 seconds later an E crawls by at its usual 20, they didn't even have the decency to send it local for us. The next F came at :28 (the previous was at :15).
Well, for what it's worth I wasn't on that express. My F from 179th ran local as usual.
It happens semi-frequently in the morning, too, Fs passing Van Wyck Blvd express.
Has there ever -- or in the past 5 years, say -- ever been a rush hour period when NOTHING WENT WRONG? I mean, there is a schedule, the TA tries to adhere to it; how often, if ever, is there a rush hour with no, or almost no, major delays, sick passengers, breakdowns, crimes, GOs, suicides, accidents, etc., so it can be said just about everybody got to work ON TIME? This is not meant as sarcasm -- I'm really curious as to how often the TA sticks to schedule during rush hour thoughout the system.
Maybe on holidays :). Seriously, with door holding problems alone, I'm sure the number of unscheduled delays are at least in the double digits daily. Even so, I'm usually on time for work, two notable exceptions being this Monday, when I overslept, and 2-3 months ago, when there was a sick passenger on the F in front of me before Roosevelt Ave, my F went OOS with door problems at 23-Ely, I took an E back to Queens Plaza to get an R, and that R went OOS with door problems at Lexington Ave.
Having worked in the control center for a summer I can definetly say NO. A rush hour without problems maybe happens once out of the 365 days in a year.
-Harry
Ugh, morning only? Every other day I have to be in school by 8:40, any shot I could get one of those and get to Van Wyck Blvd (yes I have to double back) by then? I would be willing to wake up a little earlier and go all the way out to 179 if there was as a decent chance that might happen.
Around what time does this happen? It can't be before 7:30 since stored trains are blocking the way.
The Hillside Express is one of the few express runs I haven't ridden yet (well, since third grade when the F was express and R local). All I need is it and Begen st to 4th ave and I'm set with the B division.
It happens when it happens. I think what causes an F to run Hillside Express is when it's running late. It's a treat when it does happen.
:-) Andrew
I lucked out once in the early 90s and got an F train which was rerouted along the express tracks south of Jay St due to construction work. The only time I ever rode out to 179th St. was in October of 1988, before the Archer Ave. line opened. I took an F from Roosevelt Ave., which promptly got switched to the local track before 75th Ave. and made all local stops. Heading back to Manhattan, it ran express, even skipping 169th St.
Sounds like a frisky train of R-46s. That's a fast express stretch by any means. The R-10s smoked on that run when they helped out on the F 20 years ago, and the R-1/9s weren't too shabby when they were still around.
Yes, I believe the two fastest runs are from 179th Street to Parsons Blvd, and from Van Wyck Blvd to Parsons Blvd.
My cousin who is a retired conducter for the F trains said one morning the motormen who was operation a Manhattan bound F train morning rush hour overshot Parson's Blvd by one car length. He was told not to open the doors and continue on to Van Wyck. I can imagine what the passengers both on and off the train were saying.
Frank D
once upon a time I was riding lead car on Jam/Bway in a BMT standard. Way before intercoms etc. At one of the stations below Myrtle the motorman over shot, and when the doors opened you could step off into space. The only thing that saved the day was it was mid morning Saturday and the car was almost empty. If it had been a rush hour a tragady could have occurred. I remember being some what suprised.
I've heard expresses would absolutely blast past Sutphin Blvd. Wayne/Mr. Slant R-40 says that R-10 F train he took 20 years ago was going so fast when it blew by Sutphin that the station was a mere blur. I can only imagine what the passengers standing on the platforms were subjected to as that train went past. No doubt a dose of ear-splitting thunder which CPW patrons had long been accustomed to.
Then there was that R-6/7 F train in 1973 which got up to A-440 on that same stretch....
The IND was built for speed, period.
I confess ... I admit my addiction! I admit it, I was hooked on what the political pander bears USED to promise, this addictive substance called RAPID transit. I promise! I be good! I go into rehab! :)
Hey, I was hooked on it, too. Withdrawal has been tough. Nowadays I find myself on an A train of R-38s heading up CPW, and I say to myself, is this as fast as it can go?
I grew up in the Bronx (living in NJ only the past 8 years), and I use to love taking the D express between 125th & 59th St. Then, like you said, everything came to a crawl.
The same can be said for the IRT express service. The 7th Ave Express still reach some nice speeds, but the Lexington Avenue line can sometimes come to a crawl. That line has never been the same ever since the derailment of 1991.
I think we have the technology to provide express service at higher speeds. We just have to modify the tracks on which the trains run.
During non-rush hours, the express stretches on the 3 main IRT lines CAN get good speed. During the rush hours however, congestion can take over.
Question for any T/Os or affiliates who have been working on the #7 express lately: are some redbirds being pushed to run at *maximum* speed between 61st St-Woodside and Junction Blvd? It seems like the T/Os are really pushing it to the limit until there's no tomorrow, to the point where the trains can't seem to run any faster. This particularly applies to the Flushing-bound expresses once it runs near 90th St station.
The trains run like that in the 90 St area because the tracks are on a downgrade. The 7's run the same as all the other equipment.
Yeah that stretch rocks. The one good thing about the Queens-bound express from Woodside to Junction, is no timers. Without timers, those Redbirds can really zoom right along!
It's really straight, so the TA feels the speed of trains can be pretty much unrestricted in that stretch.
I agree wtih you there! my best video is on the #7 FLUSHING LINE
shot last year during the subway world series day / night & lots
of "express runs" the 8 hr. video was the only way i could bring it home! it sells for only & 20.oo a bargan at any price !!
Its like being a "redbird sandwich" at many streaches of the route!
I love the lovely #7 !!!
I ran the Flushing expresses off and on in the 70's..best I ever clocked a train for was 47 MPH, likewise about the same onthe "mainlines" in Manhattan. With the exception of downgrade stretches this is, and not just dips. The equipment just wasn't meant to go as fast as a lot of us thought we were going.
IIRC the redbirds and similar were geared for 50 MPH, the old IRT 45.But I've seen a lot of the prewar IRT do better with a grade and momentum. But 40-45 was about normal.
You keep the controller "on the post" and let them run, unless there's a speed restriction, curve, etc. The train will do what it will.
That 7 express we were on last October got up to 42 before stopping at 61st.-Woodside. A tunnel will always give the impression of higher speed as opposed to an elevated or ground level stretch.
I think the slow downs only come during rush hour, because trains have to wait longer for people to get on or off. Last time I was in NYC during the weekend, the Lex express was hauling ass. The only way to relieve congestion during rush hour is to find a faster way for passengers to enter and exit the train. I've suggested a few ways of doing that in the past.
Do what they do in the Tokyo Subway, hire people to push the people into the trains
We have MTA workers on the platforms during rush hour, but they usually do the opposite - yanks people off the trains, because they're in the way of the doors closing.
According to NY1, the option oder for 150 cars of the R142A class has been authorized by the MTA Board. They say that they are quite happy with the cars except, for sonm problems w/the anouncement system.
Sorry, no link available at this time.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bad news for the Redbird fans.
Yeah, time to cue up "Bye, bye, (Red)birdie." Nothing lasts forever.
Everyone seems to have missed this article today
Sea Of Change Awaits Aging Redbirds
Not really a big surprise -- the things would have to by catching fire or running into the backs of the trains ahead of them due to brake failure for the option order not to have been picked up.
Did the report mention any scheduled delivery date?
No it didn't
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, it did. They said the whole fleet would be in place by January 2003. You can read the story at www.ny1.com under transit news.
Channel 7 reported that a total of 430 "subway cars" (they did not specify which kind(s) were on order, for delivery by the end of next year. This sounds like the option order for the Bombardier R142 (#6981-7210) as well as the Kawasaki R142A.
wayne
The Daily News states that the order will be for about 450 cars and this would make the TA car fleet increase by 150 cars.
Damn, the PA system on 2 of the R142A's I've ridden on weren't working.
Does anyone know where I can get very detailed Long Island Railroad track maps/plans?
My father was recently marveling at the genius of NYC's subway engineers to build its subways -- from the beginning -- with express service, and he asked me who came up with the idea. I didn't know, and after consulting many books and finding no definitive answer, I turn to you Subtalk experts.
Was Parsons the genius behind the idea? Or did the pre-subway elevated lines offer express service? Where did the concept originate? I'd be especially interested in finding out what mass transit line was the very first to offer express service.
A lot of people have observed that express service is among the great features of our subway that sets it apart from other great subway systems of the world, and I and my Dad would like to know who we have to thank for that!
Welcome to the site! In case you don't know, this site is MUCH MORE than just SUBTALK. Many of your questions can be answered HERE
Peace and welcome,
ANDEE
SUBWAYSURF with the Post of the Week!!
In case anyone's wondering, his name is Spanish for "Don't lean on the door," but I've never heard that announcement on a train. The Disneyworld Monorail says "Please stand clear of the doors. Por favor manténganse alejado de las puertas."
Actually back in the mid 1980's there was a rash of doors opening on moving trains. On the interior of each door panel (where the current decals that say 'Do Not Hold Doors' are located), one side had a decal which said 'Do Not Lean On Door' while the adjoining panel said 'No Se Apoye Contra La Puerta'. The bi-lingual decals inside the cars have since been done away with.
Why did they do away with the stickers in 2 languages?
Peace,
ANDEE
I really don't know. Maybe someone else around here does? Maybe because it was sensible. After all, these are my darling employers of the last 19 years we're talking about.
Easy, all languages in the world weren't equally represented. The Chinese, Japanese, French, Polish, Russian, German, and other non-english speaking groups were outraged that Spanish people did not have to know English to read the signs, but they did. Can you blame them, it's not like there's any place you can LEARN ENGLISH around here.
Around the first time I rode the NY subway (about 5 or 6 years ago?) I remember one poster on the trains that said roughly "No smoking. Anytime, Anywhere. On our trains, on our platforms, in our stations" in English, Spanish, French, Russian, Arabic, Farsi, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, German, Italian, Bahasa, Portuguese, Hindi and Ukrainian, or some such mix like that. I wanted to steal one so badly, but that would have been wrong. They don't happen to sell these, do they?
I don't know whether four track express lines were the idea of a single man.
In THE NEW YORK RAPID TRANSIT DECISION OF 1900: ECONOMY, SOCIETY, POLITICS, by Wallace B. Katz, first mention of a four track subway seems to be attributed to the "Rapid Transit Association" and says that "men like iron-master Abram Hewitt, social reformer Simeon Church; and former Mayor Opdyke, all of whom spoke before a meeting of the newly formed Rapid Transit Association in February, 1873 [...] prepared a bill for the Legislature, sponsored by Mayor Opdyke, which called for the creation of a rapid transit commission with authority to select routes and devise plans for a four track rapid transit road."
This info is on this site (thanks, Dave), at this location.
The idea of a four track express operation, even as early as 1873, may have been self-evident, as compared to steam railroad's experience in operating various classes of service. This would be tempered on the one hand by the enormous expense of building a four-track vs. a two or three track line (ummm, can you say "Second Avenue Subway") but encouraged on the other by the economy of scale of doubling a line's capacity at the initial construction phase.
Has anyone seen (or heard from) the two
blokes which debuted in July as r142/a
Test Trains.. which were wisked away
to the 207 St Overhaul Shop promptly
after passing "revenue service 101"..
Suspicious by their absence since
they were in for "minor modifications"..
yet have been gone an awful long time.
..not that there's anything wrong with missing 142s..
Try riding in the last car for a change, you may enjoy the ride.
Mr t__:^)
...think I shall try that, Mr. T...
This idea is perfect-yet the TA wont do it. Tell me what you think;
Weekdays
B-145th Street to 34th Street-extended to Bedford Park BLvd rush hours
D-205th Street to 34th Street
M-Coney Island to Metropolitan Av
Q-57th St-7th Av to Brighton Beach
W-Ditmars Blvd to Coney Island
Weekends
B-no service
D-205th St to 34th St
M-Metropolitan Av to Myrtle Av
Q-57th St-7th Av to Coney Island
W-Ditmars Blvd to Coney Island
Having 2 "Q" trains will confuse people and the bottleneck at 57th st-7th av will be mobbed. having the "M" in brighton eilvates that bottlenedck and gives Brighton commuters wall st direct service.
Doable ... but you might as well send the B to 168th street - 168th is built for terminal ops since that's where the AA and B normally went anyway in years past.
What will go out to Queensbridge along 63rd St before the connection?
>What will go out to Queensbridge along 63rd St before the connection?
BTW, last Monday on the "B" ride that the BMTman & I took, the operator showed us the switch that will be thrown the other way when they make this change. Sometimes you are just in the right place at the right time.
Mr t__:^)
Pork, what does your name mean?
It was the slogan of the national pork something-or-other.
Just like Beef: It's what's for dinner, or Got Milk?
I meant how'd you come by it as a handle?
I roleplay a pig, my handle has to be pig related.
Drain dude I am somewhat new here and would like to know if you work for New York transit. If you do what do you do?
Train dude I am somewhat new here and would like to know if you work for New York transit. If you do what do you do?
Sorry about the last one
Sorry but I don't work for NYCT. I have a Bowling Alley resurfacing business in Teaneck, NJ
LOL, made my day
Peace,
ANDEE
So any hints on how to not throw a gutter ball?
(Drain Dude, I like that... gutter- drain?)
How about ball washing and drying.
Don't worry about the powder and fluffing, I can handle that myself.
avid
It sounds like a small job anyway :)
Very!
avid
Remind me not to meet you anywhere near W4 St.
-Hank
What are you trying to say? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
[Sorry but I don't work for NYCT. I have a Bowling Alley resurfacing business in Teaneck, NJ]
A line of work I always admired! God, I'm jealeous !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Oohps on the handle, though if there was a wewbsite called www.nycsewers.org, I think Ed Norton would qualify as "Drain Dude."
dand124... i would like to apologize for some of my fellow subtalker's response to your question... you said that you are relatively new here, and the least that people could do is welcome you and give you a straight answer...
i see that train dude has a nice case of heypaul virus... things are going well
our "drain dude" has a high level management position with the subways... we can all thank him for the smooth operation of the drains in b division... if it wasn't for drain dude and his merry band of blockage eliminators, the public restroom facilities inside the subway system would be overflowing with excrement... through his program of aggresive preventive maintenance, b division has the highest mdbff (mean distance between flushometer failures) in history...
boy am i going to get it for this... i deserve to be punished...
"drain dude" is an inspiration to all of us serious subtalkers... he worked his way up the system, starting at the crank end of a 20 foot hand operated snake to his current capacity (about 50,000 gallons per hour)
LOL!!!
BMTman
ROTFLMAO
Faster, Paul, faster!
Bravo Brave HeyPaul!!
ROTFLMAO
OK ! What does that mean. Or do you have to e-mail me because of X rating !
Bill "Newkirk"
Rolling on the floor laughing my ass off.
Paul, I'd like to thank you for outing me so publicly. I can see my career, right now, swirling down the drain. Geeeeeeez
I'm at my school's library, and I'm trying my hardest not to LOL. This is one of the funniest threads ever.
Likewise, here, Rob.
While I have the utmost respect for Train Dude, that simple typo has got me ROTFLMAO!!!
[boy am i going to get it for this... i deserve to be punished...]
Yes you certainly do !!! either that or one of the Annual SunTalk Awards ... enjoyed it very much, and glad our friend apparently took it all in stride.
Mr t__:^)
"our friend apparently took it all in stride. "
Don't be so sure. In my early years I worked for a gentleman who taught me revenge is an art that requires great patience.
Ok Dude, fill me in. Who is pissed off at you now? That's why I like you. It seems we are always pissing somebody off even when we don;t want to. Witness my set-to with my lodge buddies in the Bronx. It all came about innocently. Notice this is even the first time I mentioned the word Bronx in months. Anyway, I hope your adversdary is not too bent out of shape---whoever the hell he is.
No one is pissed off at me! The person who started this thread said it was an innocent mistake. He mearly mistook the 'D' key for the 'T' key - twice. Actually I think one time is an innocent mistake, the second time makes him an itiod.
[drain dude" is an inspiration to all of us serious subtalkers... he worked his way up the system, starting at the crank end of a 20 foot hand operated snake to his current capacity (about 50,000 gallons per hour]
Maybe "Drain Dude" does work for NYCT. Eyewitness News' late Roger Grimsby once called our subway the "electric sewer" on one news broadcast. Of course that's when graffitti was rampant, overhaul was a word in the dictionary and derailments were the norm.
Bill "Newkirk"
[Eyewitness News' late Roger Grimsby once called our subway the "electric sewer"]
Wasn't Grimsby the reporter who had his new reports in one hand and a martini glass in the other...or was that a bottle of gin?...;-)
Grimsby's also the one who feuded with Rona Barrett and one time introduced the 6:30 p.m. sports segment on Eyewitness News by saying: "And now a man who is to sports what pigeons are to statues, Howard Cossell." so Roger had a way with words.
I'm sure Howard had a comeback to that. I liked what Muhammad Ali once said about Cosell. Something about wishing he was a dog and Howard was a tree...
[Wasn't Grimsby the reporter who had his new reports in one hand and a martini glass in the other...or was that a bottle of gin?...;-)
No Doug, I was transfixed by those freckles on his forehead !!
Bill "Newkirk"
....right!! ( off topic ) .....
Sallam I somehow hit the D not the T a Was going to write Train Dude
Gee
[Sallam I somehow hit the D not the T a Was going to write Train Dude ]
Nobody's making fun of you. Just making a little comdey to break the tension while we're waiting for the R-143's to arrive or reopening of the Manhattan Bridge "H" tracks.
Bill "NewkirK
as long as the r 143 has a railfan window its ok with me !
Then you are going to be seriously disapointed. OPTO is slowly coming to NYCT, and that means full-width cabs.
FACT: NYCT (and every other rail transit agency) is NOT in business to make railfans happy. They are in business to carry passengers safely with the best technology they can buy.
[...with the best technology they can buy.]
In that case, we insist on a re-evaluation of
our "shopping" entourages... there's GOTTA be
'some' transit car-maker SOMEWHERE which
still sells windowed equipment..
stole my thunder south ferry !! right on man!!
stole my thunder south ferry !! right on man!!...
I thought that the r143s would be ATO so they would not have an operator, so they would not even need a cab
ATO's usually have a cab and often a carbon-based lifeform inside just for show. I remember riding the Washington Metro shortly after it opened and going to the (ahem) "tinted fan window" and commenting on the person sitting up front reading a book while the autoannounces were done and the train closed up and took off by itself. Apparently they heard my scornful remarks and tried to look busy. Damned train buffs! :)
Seriously though, WMATA and BART have a hominid of some form up front "just in case" ... I would expect the same for the MTA. Call it featherbedding if you want, but someone in the cab helps to assuage the geese ... and you never know, they may just need to hit the big button marked "Emergency brake" some day ...
The R-143 will eventually have CBTC, Communication Based train Control. It will still require an operator but as a 'moving block' signal system, will allow shorter headway and greater speed.
but why not put a clear window on the inside so people can see through the front- there is no advantage to the other thing where the window should be
If you put a clear window on the inside door there is the problem of reflective glare from inside the passenger area affecting the T/Os vision (ever try to drive a car at night with the interior light on?). The polarized panel that they put there is at least some knid of compromise, IMO, they could just make it solid.
Peace,
ANDEE
ok then OPTO will not serve this purpose!!
Finally, someone else realizes this.
-Hank
Oh, I just thought your mind was 'in the jutter' at the time of the posting...;-)
BTW, many postings here lately have qualified as having 'gone done the drain', so don't feel so bad about the mistake. It was an honest one.
BMTman
oh well.......?.........!
As Of January 18 2001 5PM MST
The First 23 Miles Of Street Railway Line have been Permnately maped from West Central Phoenix To West Mesa Arizona (For those who have visted the Phoenix and/or Mesa Metro areas From Chris Town Mall 19ave/Bethany Home Road South and East To Downtown Phoenix Then East to Downtown Tempe/Arizona State University then East Along Apache Trail/Main St at Longmore Road Mesa) The funding is comming from The City's Of Phoenix, Tempe and Maricopa County Az.
Construction Is Est To Begin In 2002 and Open In 2006 Other Lines & Extensions are planed.
Offical Web Sites
Valley Connections Light Rail Newsletter
http://www.valleyconnections.com/
City Of Phoenix Transit 2000 Plan
http://www.valleymetro.maricopa.gov/busbook/Transit2000/index.html
Valley Metro Transit (Including Complete Online Edition Of Bus Book)
http://www.valleymetro.maricopa.gov/
This site is far from done but I want to get some feed back on what you think.
www.bostonsubway.homestead.com
Ay! They trashed all my stuff after a few months.
Why?
I have no clue but some fellow subtakers said it was probably because I only had pictures and no HTML index.
CP Rail just delivered a bunch of R142's to Fresh Pond Yard. The numbers were 6371-75 and also 6441-6445.
Shawn.
These will probably be delivered over a two day period. Will be on the lookout for both batches on Friday and Saturday.
-Stef
All these deliveries must keep David really busy updating the R142 info !!
Not really but I think I've probably missed a few posts...
Article about STILLWELL RENOVATION
Peace,
ANDEE
More hot air about THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY
Peace,
ANDEE
["We're proceeding full speed ahead," Reuter said. "Our plan is to
get the project ready to start awarding the major construction
contracts by 2004."]
Since there's no power in the portions of the line already built, guess "Full Speed Ahead" is just a position on the Controller, i.e. said for cause & effect, nothing more.
Mr t__:^)
A scared snail goes faster. Three years just to do the paper work. Only a govt bureaucrat would dream of calling that full speed.
A lot of that is budget and regulation-based and is not under direct MTA control. Want faster action? Get on the phones and bug the pols! If you don't, don't look at other people and accuse them of not doing anything.
Make no mistake. People in NYCTA would like this project - it increases the "empire" they control and justifies higher budgets. That's not all good, but we can use it to our advantage this time.
Do you want this subway? Stop whining, and start acting!
Point taken.
It's official. If he can't drown downstate in debt as much as he'd like, Pataki is going to go the usual route: STUDY the Second Avenue Subway instead of BUILDING it. We were never going to get a subway anyway. Long Island was going to get a connection, and we were going to get a study. Now, presumably, Long Island will also get a study. I guess that's as "fair" as we are going to get -- EVERYONE who cares about the future loses, while the winners fleece and flee.
Perhaps in a more enlightened time, we'll get a variety of transit improvements in the City and Suburbs.
"The TA plans to begin soliciting firms next month to do preliminary engineering for a line that would run from 125th St. to lower Manhattan, Reuter said."
"The TA also plans to authorize an environmental study that would, among other things, help identify a preferred route for the southern section, roughly below 63rd St. An earlier study - done when the TA was planning a shorter line - identified a preferred route with station locations for a northern section.
"'We're proceeding full speed ahead,' Reuter said. 'Our plan is to get the project ready to start awarding the major construction contracts by 2004.'"
"Preliminary engineering" and "awarding the major construction contracts" sounds like more than "just another study" to me, and the selection of a single route for the lower Manhattan portion would be good news, too.
Hasn't that cotton-pickin' line been studied to death already? Sheesh....
Wasn't the last bond issue prior to the adoption of NEPA?
Formal studies for the lower half of Manhattan have to be done (yes, it's another study - get over it!) The existing tunnels will probably not be useful.
I'll say what I told others: Get on the phones, and start bugging the pols to get this done. And stop whining!
Formal studies for the lower half of Manhattan have to be done (yes, it's another study - get over it!)
I'm not complaining; I'm a consultant ;)
YAWN is right. We've been here before. Wasn't it a done deal in 1968?
YAWN is right. We've been here before. Wasn't it a done deal in 1968?
Yeah, but after 1968, a Republican took the White House, the City entered a fiscal crisis, -- uh-oh, wait a minute...
My mom actually woke me up several minutes earlier than usual to read that article. It was good for a laugh, but I need every minute on days I go in at 8...
We really need an oil crisis. Why aren't the east side politicians yelling and screaming for the subway to be built already?! All they're good for is pressure, and they don't even know when to put it on!
Stop complaining about hot air and stop yawning, and start getting on the phones and email and bug your City Council, Mayor, Borough President and State Assemblyperson and Senator and let them know you want this.
You have an opportunity here. If you stay home and miss the game, some of that "hot air" may have been your own.
Has there been any change in the propulsion systems of the R68s recently. I have noticed a different, almost A/C traction like, sound coming from them recently.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee, during the 12 year SMS, the R-68s were retro-fitted with the Adtranz E-Cam propulsion package. However, the E-Cam is a DC propulsion system. At the same time, though, the trucks were also rebuilt and all traction motors were replaced. That whinning noise seems to be a product of the overhauled motors. The whine, as you may have noticed, is by no means uniform throughout the fleet. While that sound may be annoying to some, it definitely has not interferred with the performance of the R-68 fleet which has a projected MDBF of over 338,000 miles for January.
By the way, it is amazing how much info you can get while listening through drains.
Steve,
Thanks for the explanation. I don't find the sound annoying at all, you can only hear it from the outside. It's a kind of space shuttle like sound and I like it. You are right about it not being consistent, some cars have it, some don't.
The sound that annoys me the most on the R68s is the PA problem. I know that you have made considerable progress on this but it is still there. Could you give me an update on that?
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee,
Sorry because I can't give you a definitive answer. In 1994, when I first became acquainted with the R-68s, our engineers were hard at work on the problem. I thought it was a simple filtering problem but was told it was not. Oddly enough, the problem occurred in certain areas of the tunnels and was not consistent from car to car.
In 1998 & 1999, when the cars were linked, the problem changed. In addition to the annoying intermittant hum, the crew intercom, now, in some cases, is mixed with the PA signal. In other cases, the IC doesn't work bi-directionally. The TA engineers are still working on the problem.
Just wondering, when the sets were linked, was a ground wire
included between adjacent cars, or are they grounded through
the drawbar? If the latter, are there flexible copper shunts
from the carbody to the drawbar?
How would you know??? You own a friggin bowling alley resurfacing business!
LOL, made my morning AND evening
Peace,
ANDEE
Is urethane still widely used as a lane finish? It's a lot safer than lacquer, AFAIK.:-)
I get all my information here on subtalk.
Goes to show ya, SubTalk is better than taking college courses. All in one website, you learn about the mechanics of heavy machinery, mathematics, social studies/current events and psychiatry (heypaul).
Oh I'm sorry. The last subject was for those who need it! :)
There is a wealth of subway information shared here. You could almost rename it, "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About the NYC Subway But Didn't Know Where or Who to Ask".
R44's have a whine too, but not the R46's.
R-44s have the E-cam and the R-46s don't.
How about the R142? They also whine.
Their a/c traction motors make the R142's whine.
How about the R142? They also whine.
So do most wives and they don't have E-cams.
I guess I know somebody who ain't gonna be getting any after THAT statement.
I did something like that just once.
I didn't evem get cheese and crackers with the whine after that.
avid
But they have P wires, right?:-)
I've never seen a wife with P wire. Haywire yeah but not P-wire.
LOL
Is the whine you're talking about the incredibly loud ear-splitting thing I heard today when a D arrived across the platform? It was much louder than the R-44 whine, and if the train had for some reason remained in the station for much longer I would have had to go to the mezzanine to give the ears a rest. When it started moving the pitch lowered for a second, then went back up.
That be she!
The ridership increase because of the new extension of the Green Line met the 6-month projection on the second regular workday of service (Wednesday). Story in Friday's Washington Post. 20,000 new passengers are causing dangerously overcrowded platforms. Cars are being added to the line, taken from other lines because of the equipment shortage.
"Build It and They Will Come"
Those new CAF's are going to get a real workout once they get pressed into service. Its too bad they don't have enough cars to extend the Yellow Line to Greenbelt as was in the master plan years ago.
So build another 100 CAF cars! They should run the Yellow Line to Greenbelt in the Rush Hours, IMHO.
wayne
As was stated before on this board,the Yellow line was supposed to go to Greenbelt. I ahve a map from 1978 that shows this. It also shows the indecision about the southern end of the Green line, splitting
the choice in dotted lines to either Branch ave. or Rosecroft. Wayne, your suggestion about the Yellow Line going to Greenbelt during rush hours has merit. Seems like the problems are at the southern end
as decsribed before.
Chuck Greene
And the minority groups in Southeast are saying the green line is treated differently than the red, orange, and blue lines. Yeah right. It seems that none of them know the RED LINE had the same problem when it was extended to Grosvenor back in 1984. Same with yellow.
"And the minority groups in Southeast are saying the green line is treated differently"
Stranggggeeee. That article never mentioned about "minorities" (people of color) being upset about inadequate service on the green line. But my conscious told me that they was some racial elements involved.
N Bwy
Absolutely none. The upper class citizens of Washington in Northwest had the same problem when the red line was extended to Van Ness in the 1980s. If the minorities shut up and thought for a moment, they would see the problem. When the subway was planned, they complained and argued on a route. People in NW did not. Thus, the line was done first. Also, WMATA does not want to build a line that isn't needed. A few years ago, that part of town was a disaster. The minorites are getting what they paid for. Don't complain when the service is planned, it will come sooner and other things can happen, too.
Criminee! Even when new rapid transit is an overwhelming success, reporters still manage to find a bunch of people to complain. It's obvious Southeast Washington has been in dire need of rapid transit. If the 4-car trains were half empty, people would be complaining about wasted spending on useless public transportation. Now that they are packed, people are bitching about it. If I were Metro, I would be trumpeting the fact that their newest line is at capacity on the second day and daring legislators and elected officials to cut transit spending and build more highways! Why The Post, of all periodicals, would choose a negative slant ripe with latent racial overtones rather than a positive view centered on more-than-expected success is beyond me. When's the last time you heard of overcrowded trains outside of the NY metro area? WMATA definitely should use this circumstance to garner support and $$ for expansion.
"When's the last time you heard of overcrowded trains outside of the NY metro area?"
Ever been to Chicago? Standing-room only on most L trains at rush hours, even some people standing on the Metra trains. Heck, I've had to stand on a Blue Line train at midnight or on a Sunday afternoon on several occasions. I would hazard to guess that passengers routinely have to stand at rush-hour on a bunch of transit systems (Boston, Philadelphia, San Francisco).
Having to stand and overcrowded are two different things. When you need to hold on to a pole to keep from falling, that's just crowding. When you don't have to, that's overcrowding.
I suspect standing room only was used in the figurative not the literal sense. Some lines on CTA are legitimately overcrowded during rush hour. The Ravenswood (Brown) Line is or will shortly be undergoing major work to increase capacity.
A few peak runs of northside Red Line trains can be very bad too.
You want overcrowding?
I have 4 letters for you:
P A T H!
I rather ride on a crowded NYC Subway train from NY to LA than ride the PATH.
On the Philadelphia El trains, i think there are less seats, and you basically always have to stand unless you get on the train first when it gets in at 69th street. This even happens in the first cars too.
Funny, I was just at a DVARP meeting, in which I was hearing our newsletter editor talk of how ridership on the Market Frankford el is inbalance, and leans heavily to the Frankford side, which would basically mean that the headways are built to support the necessity up to Frankford, and the west side should be nowhere near as crowded.
This has been the case for quite some time and is even more evident in the off-peak. If there were some convenient place to turn back alternate trains from Frankford (i.e. 30th St), this imbalance could be rectified.
In Altanta, during morning rush hour, it's already standing room only at the terminal stations. So it can get pretty crowded once it starts going to the next several stations. This pleases me, because it means that mass transit here is healthy.
"When's the last time you heard of overcrowded trains outside of the NY metro area?"
Ever been to Chicago? Standing-room only on most L trains at rush hours, even some people standing on the Metra trains. Heck, I've had to stand on a Blue Line train at midnight or on a Sunday afternoon on several occasions. I would hazard to guess that passengers routinely have to stand at rush-hour on a bunch of transit systems (Boston, Philadelphia, San Francisco).
Since when is SRO the same as overcrowded? Here, in NYC, SRO would be an improvement. Here, if no one is standing, the TA starts talking about reducing service. Here, there isn't even standing room on some of our lines during the rush hours. As a veteran of the Lex, all I can say is some people don't know when they are well off.
A lot of the problems here in DC is that people refuse to move to the middle of the cars, creating a logjam at the doors. For whatever reason, people just stop as soon as they enter the car and nobody else can get on. Many times I see what looks to be a crowded car, only to see it leave with the middle part empty.
Which is why REAL SUBWAY cars have more doors for similar length car bodies.
WMATA unfortunately thought, like BART, that they were the LIRR not the TA. Riders stay close to the doors so they can get out.
...people refuse to move to the middle of the cars, creating a logjam at the doors. For whatever reason, people just stop as soon as they enter the car and nobody else can get on. Many times I see what looks to be a crowded car, only to see it leave with the middle part empty.
This practice, my friend, is universal. This is why you hear the C/R's say, "Step ALL THE WAY in," here in New York. Their directive is often ignored.
New Yorkers are allergic to directives.
I wonder how far along that 192-car order from CAF of Spain is doing. It sounds like they could have used those cars yesterday.
wayne
8 cars enter service Sunday, February 4th. Until then, they are several cars short.
The CTA is not just SRO it is overcrowded. All of the El's has SRO during non-rush hours, but during rush hours is becomes overcrowded.
The red line is usually overcrowded at any time. The Brown Line can be a nightmare during rush hour. That is why the CTA is trying to get money to expand platforms to extend overcrowded trains to 8 cars from 6.
The Purple line express is usually the only exception that isn't always over-crowded. I think people don't realize about the rush hour only express and most transfer at Howard to the Red Line. The people that do realize then almost all transfer back to the Red at Belmont. Their smart though, that's the fastest way to get downtown using the purple to Belmont and the Red to the Loop via the subway. The purple need to go back to an express to the Merchandise Mart. It will probably never happen again, but that was the good old days when it was a super express train. Thier is talk of a red line express in the future though!!
Anyway, don't bitch about DC being crowded until you've been in NYC or Chicago during a winter rush hour. I personally enjoy all the people and energy they create, but that's just me.
BJ
The purple needs to go back to an express to the Merchandise Mart.
Yes! 22 minutes Howard Street to Merchandise Mart (vs. 43 minutes on the skip-stop from Howard Street to the first stop in the subway, which was only one block closer than MM to where I worked) back in 1978. That was MOVIN'!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"The purple need to go back to an express to the Merchandise Mart"
My brother. After the CTA gets done fixing all existing lines up they must expand aggressively. There's already too much auto oriented development, no time to wait! It's fantasy, but I'd be pleased with some kind of distributor from the Metra stations to points in/around downtown, shorter Midway line, a connection from the Ravenswood to the O'Hare, a crosstown line or two, and tons of express bus lanes in the next 25 years.
reality bites what we'll get is more Buck-development and more CTA cutbacks except for communting from N'side to the loop.
The two finalists for maglev development money are Baltimore to Washington and Pittsburgh to Pittsburgh airport. Under couuent law, only one of them will get the money. Arlen Specter expects B-W to be the winner, so he's proposing that both be funded. Stories in Washington Post and Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.
If Baltimore/Washington gets it and it can be built for the 2012 Olympics, great! Otherwise, I am not sure what good it will do us.
What's the point anyway?
Maglev, and to a lesser extent, monorails, are a gee whiz technology that's seen in theme parks, and nowhere else.
Anyway, the TGV's been tested to 300mph, so what's the point of maglev?
What about hybrid technology? For example, roller coasters sometimes use linear propulsion systems, but they ride on wheels rather than being leviated. I'm guessing this is cheaper and more practical than a true maglev. Could this be a better idea for the Train of the Future?
Mark Michalovic
This system was called "Tomorrow's Transportation Today" at the Scarborough RT's opening in 1984.
For you people in New York, it will be known as the Air Train.
Enjoy...
(What's the point anyway?)
To find something to fund when Congress finally gets around to eliminating all mass transit aid to NYC.
---- W, HELP, The fools are flushing good tax dollars down the maglev $$$1 BILLIOM A MILE MAGLEV TOILET I DON'T CARE IF YOU JUST GIVE THE FAT CATS A BIG TAX CUT JUST DON'T FLUSH IT DOWN THAT RAT HOLE.
This will be an even bigger waste of transit R&D money than UTDC if this happens!
Way back,
Just before the M-1s were to be delivered, I recall a news item on T.V.
It had to do with the GOH or just plain overhaul of the old Double Deckers. They were completed. Instead of returning to service though, they were supposedly stored at Speonk or on the West Hampton Air Force Base. I beleive it had been decommissioned then, the base that is. If this is true, does anyone else recall it? Could twenty or thirty Slant R/40s be hidden there as well?
avid
Yeah, and maybe several MP-41's are hidden there are well. (We can always hope...:-)
BMTman
Add center doors, remove the surface road hardware, change the control systems to GE High V.. ah ha.. a set of Gibbs for the Subway centennial. Fat chance!
You mentioned "just before the M-1's were delivered"......hmmm, I don't think ANY of LIRR's equipment was in storage anywhere at the time. Every available piece was rolling.
There WERE about half a dozen or so of their MP70 double deckers put through a GOH program, in which they received new sealed windows, new air conditioning systems, more soundproofing, tinted windows, new seating and complete interior/exterior paint jobs. I know 1304, 1306, 1312 were three or them. I think this was done, though, in 1966 or early 1967. Not sure of other car numbers, or even IF there were other cars, but those three I am sure of (I just checked my 35mm slide collection....shots were taken in 1967 at Babylon Yard.)
As far as storage of LIRR cars, there was storage of some of the earlier retirements of the T72 push-pull cars in the mid-1980's. I believe they were stored at what was Camp Upton, off the mainline in Yaphank area. There were about 30-35 cars involved, and they were then sold off within a few months of them being stored. Then some moved down to the Philadelphia area (new owners were down there???) and two of them even wound up out here in southern California. (Cars 2780 and 2808 were bought by a real estate company that has offices looking like old railroad stations. The cars sat on a Southern Pacific siding in Brea, California, for many years. They disappeared around 1990 and that SP branch was abandoned shortly thereafter.)
One MP-70 is at Riverhead as part of the "save the #39" collection.
Mr t__:^)
The original LIRR double-decker, T62 #200, as well as one of the low-1300 series cars (I think MP70Bc 1304) are the ones out at the Railroad Museum of Long Island.
"The original LIRR double-decker, T62 #200, as well as one of the low-1300 series cars (I think MP70Bc 1304) are the ones out at the Railroad Museum of Long Island."
#200 is the only LIRR double decker out there in Riverhead. Unless they are hiding one I don't know about.
Bill "Newkirk"
Last Summer we only saw one the day the 3/4 Ton Crew passed by.
Mr t__:^)
I wonder if that 1300-series car is what was seen instorage around Yaphank, that got this whole thread started.
RMLI's site hasn't been updated in awhile (they're still announcing the "new" 2000 calendars), so I could not verify if they got the car or not.
Way back,
Just before the M-1s were to be delivered, I recall a news item on T.V.
It had to do with the GOH or just plain overhaul of the old Double Deckers. They were completed. Instead of returning to service though, they were supposedly stored at Speonk or on the West Hampton Air Force Base. I beleive it had been decommissioned then, the base that is. If this is true, does anyone else recall it? Could twenty or thirty Slant R/40s be hidden there as well?
There was one, it may still be there, Double Decker out at Riverhead Long Island, N.Y.
avid
I don't know about the others, but here's the one in Riverhead:
It looks just like that one! For a while , a few years back there was a Pennsy RDC. It was on a spur, in a Lumber yard, not far from the DoubleDecker. Then I saw one of the X-Files episodes, and an RDC was blown up! To this day the thought of it makes the hair on my cackels stand up. BRRRRRRRRR.
avid
The Pensy never used rdc'S.
Maybe I miss led you . I meant the Pennsylvania Budd RDC.
avid
You meant the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Line Budd RDC's, two of which will resume running in April between Cape May Court House and Cape May City on the Cape May Seashore Lines.
Maybe , it had a blue KEYSTONE.
AVID
That statement is partly true. The Penn Railroad had a subsidiary that ran the south Jersey coast lines that did use the Budd RDCs for many years.
And "Penn Central" acquired a few including former New Havens that ended up on spurs such as the Croton North to Poughkeepsie, and the Hartford via Meriden routes. PC even used a few of them as switchers in the Bronx at Mott Haven.
And PC had all the ex-NYC Beeliners (Croton-Harmon to Poughkeepsie service, among other places).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Strange controller too on the RDC's ... sorta like a wall mounted variant of an old Corvette stickshift. And they had about as much pep as one of those old GM Fifth Avenue Coach line busses and belched even more black smoke ... yak.
RDC's ...had about as much pep as one of those old GM Fifth Avenue Coach line busses and belched even more black smoke
I don't know about elsewhere, but here in South Jersey the PRSL RDC's were called "black tornadoes".
The ones that Metro North "inherited" from Penn Central were DOGS. Poorly maintained (only enough to make them move) but took forever to get up to a decent clip. Almost impossible to start without plugging them in in the winter time and generally in natty shape. Used to ride "the bus" all the time between Croton North and Poughkeepsie since one or maybe two in tandem was about all that was needed for the final run north of Croton North where the third rail ended at the time. Even sounded like a bus when they were running.
In the 40's and 50's the RDC kept a lot of lines open that would have been closed for low ridership and knowing Budd's reputation for building good pieces of equipment, I wouldn't doubt they probably were swift of transit but by the time the 1980's and 90's came upon MNRR, those things were on their deathbeds. A bus on steel wheels ... in every negative context too ...
Ah, but DINING in the B&O exclusive car while zipping along enroute to Cumberland from DC in 62! No they didn't ride like the Capitol Ltd, but were great for a single day out and back in an era when hanging out the Dutch door was still cool. And legend has it that a charter run in the 50's set a speed record DC-Chgo several hours better than the Capitol.
I suppose it all comes down to who does car maintenance and what kind of budget they have for parts. I find it difficult to imagine that Budd didn't build an excellent piece of geese haulage. But the bus to Poughkeepsie was decrepit. It ran though the motormen I would hang with up front were always complaining about them, especially in winter. Even got some throttle time on them and was amused by the lift, slide, lift slide kickup. But they wouldn't let me brake them - word was braking was a bit tricky on them. I much preferred the FL9's when they had them but that was only one in the morning southbound and one in the evening northbound. The rest of the runs were RDC's, usually the same ONE in an absolute block.
So what did Penn Central have that wasn't a dog? Deferred maintenance everywhere. My trip west in Sept. 76 and Jan 77. one way on ex NY Central, back on ex-PRR. One big mess of slow orders. Can think of some PC MU's that were bad too, but all that track too. Wonder how any revenue was earned.
The Penn Central was a railroad that deserved to die. It was proof the entropy of the passenger railroads that decayed through the 40's, 50's and 60's. I only got to know the RDC's after Metro North happened since prior, it had been the old New Haven railroad every now and then (with diner car and REAL food served between Boston and DC and while it was pokey, there was still a pretense of service at least on the main line.
That Amtrak was able to run at all with what they inherited and lacking the will of the political pander bears to fund it in the early years was a miracle. It still hasn't really been given what it needed to "compete" ... it's been on life support since the beginning and nothing's changed in that respect.
But those RDC's clearly had seen better times before I got to them. And since I lived for a while near Marble Hill, I used to take the old NY Central often and PC afterwards with the MU's. When I moved to Webster Avenue and would take the Harlem line every now and then, got to ride the NH MU's since they were often used for local service in the Bronx.
I'm sure it would have been a completely different story had the cars been maintained ... or even washed every now and then.
Funny you should mention that RDC's "had about as much pep as one of those old Fifth Avenue Coach Line buses"!!!
They had the same exact engines, believe it or not! Yep, Detroit Diesel 6-71's. RDC-1/2/3/4 had two engines coupled to a two-speed hydraulic transmission, and the RDC-9 had only one.
Usually they were maintained to not-so-hot specifications by all the roads who owned them, so they did, uh, smoke quite a bit. You'd almost think they were products of American Locomotive Company....
Yeah, those motors had a VERY unique sound and acceleration curve. And since I lived in the Bronx, knew the sound and smell all too well from the busses (the fishbowls came to the Bronx last) ... the other thing about the RDC's was the car lighting which was ALSO identical to the old busses - those rectangular incandescent jobs with the clear round lens in the middle. They went out of their way it seems to have put busses on rails. Mind ya, a neat little piece of railroading (especially the motorman stand, reminiscent of gate cars that folded out of the way so you could use the end vestibules if it wasn't the lead) ... but you knew you were on a route that was lucky to still be serviced when those things came out.
On my desktop N gauge layout, I have three Concor RDC's that I run every now and then between my Kato subway cars. I work for a software company and one of my perks is a huge desk (L shaped) with trains all over it. Four tracks and interlocking to die for. I'm not a well man. :)
The Budd RDC that was blown up in the "X-Files" program was a British Columbia Railway unit. It was one of their seven originals; they have since enhanced their fleet with some second-hand units from south of the border (i.e. the USA).
The one depicted in the photo is actually the FIRST of the LIRR double-deckers, car 200 -- class T62, which was built in 1932 by the PRR in Altoona Shops.
Car 201 was class T70, built 1934.
Car 1347 was class MP70T built 1934 also.
Cars 1337-1346 were MP70Ac/MP70AT built 1948.
Cars 1287-1337 were MP70Bc/MP70BT built 1949.
They all look VERY similar unless you place different classes side-by-side.
See my other post regarding the GOH some went through in 1967. Sorry I cannot confirm if any were stored at any time, perhaps after they were retired in 1973 some were (but I was off Long Island by then).
[Car 1347 was class MP70T built 1934 also.]
Was 1347 originally #200 or #202 ? I always heard there were two 200 series cars built in '34. Perhaps a experimental conversion to MU (1347) ?
Bill "Newkik"
No, no, no.
Hope I didn't confuse you with what I posted. I got the dates slightly off. My apologies!!
There were cars 200, 201, AND 1347 built in the 1930's.
Car 200 was built in 1932.
Cars 201 AND 1347 were built in 1937. 201 was a trailer and 1347 was a motorized trailer.
(Source of info: December, 1957 TRAINS Magazine article on LIRR with roster of all equipment.)
[Cars 201 AND 1347 were built in 1937. 201 was a trailer and 1347 was a motorized trailer. ]
Steve,
When #1347 was built in 1937 was that it's original number ? Seems funny to have that number in the middle of a series. The other double deckers start at late 1200's and carry through the 1300's. Of course they were built later. You know the LIRR's penchant for car renumberings!
Bill "Newkirk"
According to all records I've seen, 1347 was always 1347. But, if you look at the way the cars were configured.....200 and 201 were UN-motorized trailers. But they were a "new concept" so they got a completely new number series.
Car 1347 was numbered one lower than the lowest of the MPB54T's (motorized trailer coach/baggage) around at the time....as it was a motorized trailer. I see the logic of the numbering.
As for LIRR and renumbering....all the records I have show cars to be renumbered ONLY when they went through a reconfiguration/overhaul. In the 1950's, cars that were rebuilt were renumbered as follows:
If rebuilt to control motor....4000 series
If rebuilt to trailer motor....5000 series
If rebuilt to unmotorized trailer....6000 series
If rebuilt to loco-hauled......7000 series
Cars kept their original last three digits, i.e. 138 became 7138; 1678 became 5678, 1137 became 4137. (None of the double-deckers were rebuilt in the 1950's program.)
In the 1970's conversion to push-pull, the 2800 series (unmotorized trailers, 1955-vintage PS m.u.'s) were all converted and originally NOT renumbered. As cars were retired, numbers were moved around to fill gaps. The motorized m.u. cars became 2700 and 2845-plus series in random order (though there IS a system.....even numbers were former control motors and odd numbers were trailer motors).
Budd was testing a GT-E (Gas Turbine-Electric) out there. Budd used a Pioneer body as its test bed.
R40 in storage? Nice rumor. It's a hoax.
No. Not r/40.
Double Deckers. Long Time back.
avid
Hello,
And now comes our second segment of What Would You Do?
This asks the question, What Would You Do if you were in charge of routing the subways?
**This situation is just hypothetical and simulated, and does not reflect an upcoming change in subway service.**
The Roosevelt Avenue Subway Station must be closed for two weekends to install new tactile warning strips (they need them anyway) and for necessary trackwork. The station will be closed to all traffic from 12:01 AM Saturday to 5 AM Monday. With the 7 trains running extra service, and the G trains terminating at Court Square (like they always do at this time), what would you do to the E, F and R lines?
Here is what I would do:
Split E trains into two segments -
1. Jamaica Center to 71/Continental, all local stops.
2. 21 Street/Queensbridge to World Trade Center via the F line, all local stops.
F trains operate between 21 Street/Queensbridge and Coney Island. Q43 buses extended from Jamaica terminus to Van Wyck Blvd subway station. Passengers going to 179 Street would transfer to the Q43 at Van Wyck Blvd.
R trains operate between Queens Plaza and 95 Street. Trains would use the switch between Queens Plaza and the 60 Street tunnel.
A shuttle train would operate between 23 Street/Ely Avenue via the E line to the 34 Street A C E station. These trains would then use the center track between 34th and 23rd to reverse back.
There would be two shuttle buses:
Bus #1: 71/Continental express to Roosevelt Avenue, express to Queens Plaza, then 21 St/Queensbridge, same route back.
Bus #2: 71/Continental to Queens Plaza, all subway stops, then to 23 Street/Ely Avenue, same route back.
Bus #1 would not go to 23/Ely, Bus #2 would not go to Queensbridge.
What would YOU do?
- Jose
PUNT!!!:-)
Since there is no way that even the brilliant souls downtown would ever devise this, I just plain old wouldn't worry about it.
I'd run the E to Queens Plaza and have it turn on the tail track. The F would run via 532rd through to 46st and turn there, where a shuttle bus would run to 71/Continental making all local stops.
The R would run to Queensbridge. Shuttle buses would run stopping at Queensbridge, Queens Plaza, Roosevelt, and 71/Continental ONLY.
57th/6th would be closed.
At 71/Continental, F trains will be available on the Mannhatan bound express track and use the appropriate crossovers to the Queensbound local and run normal from there.
At Union TPK E trains will be available on the Manhattan bound express track, cross over N of the station to the Queensbound express and run normal from there.
They would never close all four tracks. They'd run local one way and express the other. When that was done, then they'd reverse and do the other two tracks.
Of course, emergency work might be different but it wouild taker a major emergency to take out four tracks
To whom it may concern:
Photos from my Acela Express trip that I took back in late December are now online. You may view them at www.orenstransitpage.com and click on Amtra, Acela, and Conrail.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com
I just got a cellphone call from Lou (from Brooklyn) with the sound of sirens in the background as units were responding to a 12-9 at the Brighton Line Kings Highway station. This incident involved the 12:13 Stillwell D Train.
I'm sure when Lou gets back behind a PC we'll get more details from 'the man in the street'.
I assume this will be covered on this evenings headlines.
BMTman
What is a 12-9 in police code?
Mark Michalovic
passenger under Train..
Thank you anchor BMTman....
Here is what I observed, I was at the Sheepshead Bay station when the D train there was discharged and told to hold at the station. Talking to the C/R (conductor) he had gotten holding lights at Brighton Beach but had already passed indication to the T/O (Train Operator) so the train ended up at Sheepshead. Listen to the C/R's radio, command was asking the 12:13 (or :15) Stillwell D for it's operating motor number. Then another voice asked if the person jumped or was pushed. Very cluttered on the radio. The C/R said he had heard a power shut off request but nothing after it.
The Q's were still running to Manhattan so I said goodbye to this friendly C/R (excellent job, listen to the radio, talking to his T/O and answering where Bloomingdales is and why the train was just sitting there. They don't tell you C/R's have to multitask).
Arrival at Kings Hwy starts off with the end of the D train sticking back out into the Kings Hwy interlocking. We platform normal and I notice the rear half of the D not open but the front half is. The train didn't even make the 4 Car stop marker but the head end was well past the C/R board, I'd say a car to 1 1/2 cars from the 4 car stop marker. Police blocked passangers from crossing to the D and from anyone going up to the front. They also didn't allow anyone on the platform. Get on the Q or go downstairs.
Needless to say Kings Hwy was in MESS MODE. 8 police cars in the front with two buses (ambalances) plus a Ladder and Engine Co and about 4 unmarked cars with flashers going. The engine company was returning to their truck so I assume the T/O will get 5 days off.
More Police were arriving and they blocked Kings Hwy off. At this point I had to leave to.
I can only assume that this person has lost their life, my heart goes out to the Operating Crew of the Delta. It was amazing that they still kept service running on the express track.
NY1 should offer you a job as their transit reporter. The guy they have now is in the wrong line of work. 8-)
GOOD REPORT, thanks
Peace,
ANDEE
T/O's only get 3 days off for a 12-9 involving a fatality.
>>>I'm sure when Lou gets back behind a PC we'll get more details from 'the man in the street'<<<
Oh, great wording there. Details from 'the man in the street' about the man ON the street.
This morning my supervisor arrived quite uncharacteristically an hour late. He usually takes the 'G' from 67th Avenue to Court Square.
Seems his train was stopped in the tunnel- he forgets where- due to a DOG roaming all four tracks. This required a shutdown of local and express service in both directions while transit personnel attempted to locate and remove the canine.
Back in the mid-eighties, a train, under orders from the tower, ran over and killed the dog that was delaying service on the downtown CPW line. There were screams of outrage from animal activists, and death threats against the motorman. (Don't you love how pro-animal extremists will resort to planting bombs in buildings or cars belonging to people of the offending corporation because they "care about life"?!)
If I were operating a train that was held up due to an animal on the tracks, I think I would just give up my brake handle and pack it all in that moment, because THERE'S ABSOULTELY NO WAY TO WIN. Stay put and spare the animal's life, you cause mounting delays. Proceed and run over the animal, you're public enemy #1. Damned if you do, etc.
My supervisor said some spirited arguments broke about in his car between members of the "Run the damn thing over and let's go/I'm gonna be late and lose my job" camp, and the "How dare you advocate killing an innocent animal!!" camp.
Funny how if service is delayed due to a PERSON trespassing on the tracks- and I've seen it happen a few times- sentiment among riders supports running the person over about 95-5. (Yes, people should know better, but many trespassers- either homeless or teenagers bent on graffitiing tunnels- have about the same reasoning power as a dog.)
>>>Back in the mid-eighties, a train, under orders from the tower, ran over and killed the dog that was delaying service on the downtown CPW line.<<<
In other words, the T/O had a 12-K9.
Time to cue up "Who Let the Dog(s) Out?":-)
woof, Woof, WOOF WOOF
Or, as my niece would have said a few years back, bow-wow, bow-wow, bow-wow-wow.
Becasue of that problem, G trains (and presumably, R trains) were held up at Roosevelt. So my F ran vai the G. Since I work near 14th, I stayed on and transferred to the L. Unfortunately, there was quite a crowd, and quite a wait for the L.
:-) Andrew
If I saw a dog in a confined space like a tunnel where it couldn't simply get off the tracks I'd blow the horn and keep right on going. I would only inform someone of the dog if I was sure I hit it (to get things clearned up). No matter what, no dog would be worth my train going BIE. That endangers all the humans on board.
Yeah, well, on Metro North the other day, at Fordham, there was a cat, walking on the yellow edge of the platform, chasing a squirrel. Funniest thing I've ever seen!!
I saw a loose dog roaming off the tracks at Woodside last week, and just today I saw a loose dog, once again at Woodside this morning, this time on the 7 platform.
Trust me, it wasn't a guide dog, since there was no leash. And no one was standing with it. How it got there, who knows?
Let me guess, this is someone's idea of a prank?
Delays are irrelevant when a life is at stake. You don't run trains down tracks where a dog is loose.
My question is how the dog managed to avoid getting electrocuted by a third rail or not get hit by a train by running out in front of it at the last second.
I used to wonder about the same thing when I used to see cats, racoons, and the occasional skunk wandering around the subway tracks in open cuts and squeeze underneath the third rail. I figured out that on a dry day the stone ballast couldn't conduct the electricity in the third rail to ground because the stone, when dry, is an insulator. The lucky animals that were wandering around the live third rail and squeezing beneath it didn't get electrocuted because they didn't actually complete a circuit to ground because the stone ballast that they were walking on top of wasn't an electrical ground. On the other hand, if any of the animals was touching the running rail next to the third rail at the same time as squishing under it, they would be excellently grounded - right to a direct connection back to the substation!
In terms of not getting struck down by a train, this would probably depend on the size of the dog. The animals I mentioned (cats, racoons, skunks) were all small enough that they could crouch between the running rails and have plenty of room for the lowest parts on the bottom of the train's trucks pass over top of them without incident. In fact, a lady escaped death on the TTC's subway this way a few years ago (in an area fitted with slab track which provides even more room between the lowest area between the rails and the top of the rails). A small dog could probably get away with this too, but a big one would have to jump out of the way for sure.
Why not simply run the trains as scheduled and let the dog play chicken and take its chances in the tunnel? Just because the dog is loose in the tunnel doesn't mean that it will be hit by a train, especially where there are four tracks.
That's how the TA got into trouble a few years ago with "Token" the dog. Also, a dog, of course is much bigger than other animals and they scare much more easily. If a train hits a dog, the brakes could apply in emergency if the trip cock on the car comes in contact with the animal. A dog will see the train, freeze, panic and get hit. Other animals know to get out of the way, or are small enough for the train to pass over them.
Funny you should mention the trip cock being tripped by an object other than a trip stop arm (a dog). A train I was on today got dragged to a halt because a huge bunch of helium baloons tied together were floating around the track and the strings holding them all together got snagged up all over the truck and it managed to trip the train's emergency brakes.
On an above ground line, if snow is high enough it can trip the emergency brakes.
Shouldn't it be possible to scare the dog out of a train's way? A few loud blasts on the horn would probably do it, and if it doesn't, inching the train up slowly toward he dog is pretty sure to scare him off. In the unlikely event that the dog fails to get out of the train's way, at least the T/O would know that he gave the dog a chance.
But in a lot of spots there isn't clearance for the dog to go anywhere. It isn't like a signal maintainer who will move to the benchwall and wait for the train to pass. I don't see a dog doing something like that! Since a dog is a dumb animal (can't think like us humanoids) he may not "know" enough to move to the adjacent track if there is one! We've had trains do what you suggest and the dog just walks straight ahead between the running rails.
...come by your "Handles"
A recent exchange between 2 of our friends prompts me to ask....
HOW DID YOU DECIDE ON YOUR "HANDLE"
Peace,
ANDEE
My handle is the same as my license plates (and in 10 years, only one person has ever figured it out), and it's meant to be a plug for my favorite subway route, immortalized by Duke Ellington.
You mean to tell me that your license plate is Steve B-8AVEXP ?
Peace,
ANDEE
My license plates say 8AVEXP. I've had them since March of 1991. I added that to my Subtalk handle on July 21, 1999 to coincide with the anniversary of my very first subway ride.
My parents gave me mine :-)
LOL
Thanks
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey Bob! What a coincidence. Same here.
Originall, I thought I'd use Transit and Weather Together but it's more fun saving that for special occasions.
LOL, Todd...that would be a nice handle. I guess I'm the third person to declare that my parents gave me mine as well. -Nick
Then am I the forth?
I never had to make that decision for myself. I wrote so much about the Sea Beach when I first got on line that Steve 8AVEXP told me that should be my handle and it was there for the taking. So I took it. Then in tribute to my pal Brighton #1 Express Bob, I added the #4 to my moniker. The irony is that most on this website haven't a clue that the #1 and 4 were the designated numbers of those two trains over four decades ago.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I'm one of the very few people of my age (37 years) that even know what the numbers stood for on the former BMT lines. Once I saw your handle #4 Sea Beach Fred I knew that #4 stood for the Sea Beach Line now the "N" train.
BMTJeff
Jeff: I'm not surprised. From my phone conversations with you I know that you're in the know when it comes to the New York Subway.
So did I.
And I do think that most people here know about it. Not most New Yorkers though.
The BMT numbers weren't all that big anyway, people tended to call the lines by name.
What lines used the Triplexes? I know of the Brighton Express and Sea Beach, any others? I know they couldn't be used on the Jamaica line because of the Fulton section or on any of the els (as opposed to elevated subways).
You got it right. The Triplexes spent the bulk of their careers on the Brighton and Sea Beach lines. They ended their years of faithful service on the West End, with an occasional appearance on the Culver Shuttle.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I'm one of the very few people of my age (37 years) that even know what the numbers stood for on the former BMT lines. Once I saw your handle #4 Sea Beach Fred I knew that #4 stood for the Sea Beach Line now the "N" train.
BMTJeff
The irony is that most on this website haven't a clue that the #1 and 4 were the designated numbers of those two trains over four decades ago.
I think most people on this website know what the numbers mean. As for people who ride the subway daily, or people in the state of California, that's a whole other can o'beans :)
Hey!!
I'm out here in California, and *I* know what the BMT route numbers were!!!
Used to do PLENTY of riding on the #1, #14 and the #15 trains (and sure enjoyed the R-16's on the #15 too!!!!)
Steve in Tustin, California (ten miles southeast of Disneyland.)
1 - Brighton
2 - 4th Ave
3 - West End
4 - Sea Beach
5 - Culver
6 - 3rd-5th Aves Bay Ridge
7 - Franklin Ave
8 - Astoria
9 - Flushing
10 - Myrtle-Chambers
11 - Myrtle Ave
12 - Lex Ave
13 - Fulton St
14 - Bway-Bklyn
15 - Jamaica Ave
16 - 14th St
I especially like that #4 train you mentioned----as if I had to tell you. Another BMT guy. Good show.
Yes the 4 now the N, The Slow beach Local
Why spoil a good day by saying that. It's bad enough you referred to me as slow beach fred this morning.
I should have called you earlier an woke you up.
I didn't mean to offend you, I meant most people in the state :). I figured Sea Beach Fred and maybe Salaam would be the only Californians, though I guess it's safe to assume any west coaster on this board would know.
I lived in LA for 30 years, 1 year in Vegas, 6 in Hawaii, now in Virginia, plus growing up on Kings Hwy in Brooklyn and the good old Brighton Exp
Tustin? Nice town. I used to go with a girl named Collette from Tustin. That was over 35 years ago. All the orange groves are gone now and the place is kind of crowded, eh? Still a nice community. I live in Arcadia. Good to know there are a few of us Californians on this site. My favorite trains were the #4 Sea Beach and the #1 Brighton Express, but don't tell anyone about the latter. Some of my friends on this site would never let me live it down.
Tustin? Nice town. I used to go with a girl named Collette from Tustin. That was 34 years ago. All the orange groves are gone now and the place is kind of crowded, eh? Still a nice community. I live in Arcadia. Good to know there are a few of us Californians on this site. My favorite trains were the #4 Sea Beach and the #1 Brighton Express, but don't tell anyone about the latter. Some of my friends on this site would never let me live it down.
You finally copped out, you are a Brighton Fan
You got me red handed. I did like the Brighton a lot. It kills me to have to tell you that since we've developed a nice friendly rivalry over our favorite lines. But, yes, the Brighton Express Triplex was my next favorite after the Sea Beach.
That explains everything. The Triplexes were your favorite cars, and they ran on both of those lines.
They also ran ocassionaly on the West End on Weekends in the early 50s
Thanks. That's interesting. I was going to add that the Brighton line also has a few short tunnels in the open cut portion as does the Sea Beach. Fred says he really liked those tunnels on the Sea Beach, so it would stand to reason he liked the ones on the Brighton as well.
I still like them. When I ride into one I get a rush. Remember, there are four of them at each interval, but if there was no wall separating them it would nothing more than an underpass, like those on 8th Street and Fort Hamilton Parkway. That would make them dull. I hope they never rebuild and tear them down. Tht would really piss me off.
You finally copped out, you are a Brighton Fan, pobably because it went to Ebbets Field to see the old BUMS
That's it exactly. Plus the fact that the train carried the #1 insignia, the number of Pee Wee Reese. The Sea Beach had Duke Snider's #4.
No it Had Billy Martin s Number and Lou Gehrigs number
Yuk on that----at least the Martin thing. What a punk he was, and he ruined his life by careless living. Too bad because we was a good manager. Gehrig? Well that's different. I think it would be heresy for a baseball fan to bag on that man. He was a study in greatness and courage---even if he was a Yankee.
Thread change
"HOW DID YOU DECIDE ON YOUR "HANDLE"
Mine sort of came naturally. My great-great grandfater came from a small town near Siberia where the most common surname was Dude. His first name was actually Haemish - or Hae for short. Most of my family were salt miners but Haemish worked for the trans-siberian railroad. When they came to the US on the Steamship Pottsdam in 1903, the US customs agents had a lot of fun with Hae Dude so he told them that the information was incorrect on his papers. He told them that Hae actually meant that he farmed hay & his first name was incorrectly placed under occupation. From 1903 on, he was forever known as Train Dude. I simply chose to take his name as my handle to honor his memory.
When I started as a handswitchman at East New York Yard, the other handswitchmen and the dispatcher were having problems correctly pronouncing my last name which starts with Z. So everyone just started calling me Z Man instead, and since then, everywhere I go the name has stuck with me. 179 is simply one of the closest terminals to my residence. Parsons & Archer is the other. Somehow, Zmanparsonsandarcher doesn't have the same ring to it.
Ah, now I know who you are, zman! I was that conductor you worked with on the C the last time you worked in the North (the one who got so ticked off when everything got crossed in front of us)! I remember looking at the payroll when I signed on and not being able to pronounce your last name as well.
Mystery solved. I can rest easy now. And by the way, nothing's changed on the C line. We're still taking the proverbial "back seat."
Oh so YOU were the one that I could hear swearing all the way up front! :)
Also there's nothing like getting holding lights when you're running 12 minutes late eh?
And worse - getting asked at the end of the run why you delayed the train. Gotta love that. :)
LOL....I can laugh about that now, but at the time I was so angry I could fry an egg in my hand!
I can relate to your predicament. People have been butchering my surname for years, both spelling and pronunciation-wise. Back in my days as a substitute teacher, I used to tell young kids that Mr. B would suffice if they couldn't get my name right.
P. S. It's gotten to the point where telemarketers can't even get my first name right. Sheesh. At least it's a tipoff that it's someone I don't know.
The first subway car I ever rode into Manhattan on (alone). I got it on the E, then I transferred to an A at 42nd, then back to the E at 14th, ended up in the same car despite roming around on the platform while waiting. At Canal I transferred back to the A, rode to Chambers, went back up to Canal, waited for the E and once again got 3730, even though a different train should have been the next to leave. Took it as a sign.
To be honest, I just came up with MisterK since K is my last initial (for Kirschner) and well...I couldn't think of anything better.
Andrew "MisterK" Kirschner
Initially I was posting from work (didn't have the internet at home) and therefore didn't want to be readily identified, even though I already knew several of the regular posters. Now that I have service at home my email is posted and I'm far from anonymous, but the handle stays... fits like a comfortable old slipper, you might say.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The handle stuck, in other words.:-)
It actually pretty complicated. Most people either call me Rob or Robby, so I flipped a coin. However the next two words of my name isn't acutally part of my real name. The twist is that I live and that I'm from Altanta. Am I clever, or what? Orginally, my handle was "Rob from Atl," because one of Altanta's nicknames is "the A-T-L," but later on I figured that no one would get it.
philly is a nickname for Philadelphia, PA, a city between Camden and Bala Cynwyd where I currently reside. And since I picked my handle before really reading this board, I was not aware that, as far as I can tell now, everyone here is a guy, but not knowing that then, I thought I might want to clarify it.
as far as I can tell now, everyone here is a guy
NOT! But I'll leave it to those who aren't to identify themselves if they so choose.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've came up with my handle because my favorite subway car, the Almond Joy, was built by The Budd company.
I happen to like the "1968 Stock", hence my moniker.
wayne
Their(R40) turn is coming soon, Save your nickels, Wayne
I used to read the messages posted here for a long time before my first post. When it came down to my first post, I needed to make up and handle. My first post was about CBTB on the Canarsie line, so there it was CanarsieShawn. Some of you may already know that I don't acutally live in Canarsie :)
Shawn.
Well, I'm from Pawtucket, RI, and the 42 Hope-Tunnel bus runs a couple of blocks from my house there. It's appropriate to my current home in Queens, too, because the 42's terminus in Pawtucket is Main St & Roosevelt Ave :).
What tunnel does it refer to?
Do you drink Pawtucket Patriot beer?
Pawtucket Patriot beer is fictional, although Pawtucket water has a nice kick to it :).
The "tunnel" snakes under College Hill from North Main St to Thayer St, because trolleys couldn't climb the hill. Diesel buses could probably make it, but the tunnel is there, so it's used. "Hope" refers to the bus drivers hoping they don't get into a head-on collision with some idiot who decided to drive his car into the tunnel... no; actually, the bus runs on Hope St.
No one else thought of "Mark S. Feinman", so I decided to grab it :)
--Mark
I live in South Amboy, the furthest you can go non-stop from Newark on NJT North Jersey Coast line.
The handle is in honor of the first trains I ever rode, these as I freshman at Brooklyn Tech. The Q then (September 1965) consisted exclusively of brand spanking new R32s, which I soon found out in comparing with trains of other lines, were far superior in every way. On this site I found out that they were nicknamed "Brightliners". How fitting to refer to them such: Brighton liners, and so silvery and so bright.
--Harry
interesting thing the r-32 he was talking about were later vandalized by Burner throw ups- you know pieces done over the rippling, werent too shiny during the 70's
Sorry, don't know what are burner throw ups. Of course, the TA did not maintain or clean them during the late '60s or the '70s so they lost their shine. Then their beauty was victim to overhaul. But now, at least, they are about as bright as when they were new. Interesting that they will probably outlast a number of their successors, perhaps even become the longest-lived (regular revenue service) cars in NYCTA history.
The R-32s aren't the same without their trademark blue doors or front end roll signs. Even so, they're as good a subway car as you'll ever get. Budd built a superior car; they may set an all-time service record before they're through.
If they last until 2019 they'll break the record of the IRT Gibbs, the last few that remained, and sveral other fleets thatmade "54".With one exception, the Q's, that seems to be the benchmark? The oldest Q remaining was 66 at the end of service in 1969, most were 62. Looks like it may happen even if I hate to see records for the prewar stuff broken.
Cetrainly a worthy car to break those records. Nowadays cars are not "built to last" and the R-32 may very well be the last car type in existence capable of breaking such records.
Henry, you made a good choice in choosing the R32 no. 3730 as your handle. My favorite Brightliner is no. 3359 as it appears in a really terrific photo taken in October 1964, at Brighton Beach in 'Q' service, on this website. I wonder if you have seen it around lately on the 'E'.
--Harry
For you and Q Brightliner I'll volunteer that your numbers have another meaning to me...3359: IRT Gibbs, 1904; 3730..IRT Standard High V, 1910. All in fun.
Ironically considering their longevity it is ironic that the TA finally broke down after years of conventional steel cars and ordered stainless. The little extra price sure paid off.
The Qs can't really be considered as subway cars; however, the sheer length of their careers is a record which will probably never be broken.
You must be referring to the BMT standards when you say "54". They did last 54 years as a fleet; however, not too many of them actually put in 50 years on an individual basis. The museum train, 2390-91-92, did.
All of the Gibbs Hi-Vs made it to 50 years, unless any of them were wrecked in accidents.
The R-32s have a legitimate shot at setting an all-time service record for New York, and I'd say it's even money they'll do it.
When I said 54 I meant the IRT Gibbs. In truth the last survivors would have been 53...built 1905. 3589 and 3562 for a couple. There may have been one or two more, but few.
The BMT Standards...Best I can do on them for normal op. is the 2400's--1917-69, if 1917 is right.
Guess My initial thought was transit in whatever mode. El, subway, steamroad commuter electric. There were many that topped the 50 mark but living much on borrowed time.
There was a third Gibbs car, 36xx, which lasted until the spring of 1958.
The BMT standards were built and delivered at a rate of 100 per year beginning in 1914, so the 2400-series would date from 1918. The 4000-series trailers arrived in 1924.
Does anyone out (or as they say in Canada "oot") there have the most recent MDBF figures? And just exactly how are these figures devised anyway?
I have most of the figures for the year 2000. To understand MDBF (which is a statistic) you must understand the data on which it is based. First MDBF is recorded several ways.
It can be by maintenance shop.
It can be by car fleet.
It can be by line.
It can be by division (north or south) etc.
It can be by the total fleet or even an intividual car.
In short, MDBF is the mileage divided by the number of delays charged to car equipment failure. This is where it gets complicated because a delay is not always due to a car equipment failure and a car equipment failure does not always result in a charge. For example, a train goes out of service due to door failure. If there is a mechanical reason for the failure, the charge is to Car Equipment. However, if it's due to a battery in the door track or gum or vandalism, it is not a DCE charge. A train where a dead motor is reported, but the train arrives on time, is not charged. The rules on charging can be very complicated. Anyway, in the case of a maintenance shop, you take the sum of revenue miles for each car in the fleet (non-revenue miles do not count) and divide that by the number of charged delays for the same time span. In the case of Concourse Shop, for example, the fleet does roughly 1.6 million revenue miles per month. If there are 8 charged delays for that month, the MDBF is 200,000 miles.
Thank you TD for the explanation! By the way, would you have the most recent MDBF figures?
For?
A specific car?
A specific line?
A specific car class?
A specific maintenance Shop?
etc.
Actually, I am looking for the Maintenance Shops with the best and worst MDBF stats.
Concourse had the highest MDBF for the month of December at 557,000 miles. It also had the highest MDBF for the year with a 12 month moving average of over 202,000 miles. It would be possibly inappropriate for me to say which shop had the lowest MDBF.
without naming the shop, what is that figure, if you can release that figure
I can but it'll have to wait until monday when I go back to work. I left all my MDBF numbers at the bowling alley.
I hope it isn't in a dirty rental shoe...
Verrrrry interesting. I suppose it is assumed that chargeable failures will increase in proportion to the number of cars a shop is responsible for, making it unnecessary to adjust for that factor. I wonder. Is there a correlation between the number of cars in a shop fleet and the MDBF?
Article in today's Daily News
I thought construction was to begin in 2001. I gues that gives us one year to take all our last shots of this terminal. The Stillwell men's room has to be in the Guinness book of world records as the raunchyist.
Bill "Newkirk"
According to the article, construction does begin in 2001, just not until October.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
no, thats when bidding happens
construction starts in January 02
If not it should be. The last time I was in there in August of '99, the place reeked of urin and other stuff. It was stiffling. Anything would be an improvement.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
That was still true when I was there on September 30, 2000. When you go into the Men's restroom the place still reeks from urine and it is disgusting besides. It would be nice if at least the Men's room in the Stillwell Avenue terminal wasn't such a cesspool.
BMTJeff
Preservationists would remind ya that urine IS "the official smell of New York" ... at least now that warm lacquer from the pre war cars no longer overpowers it in train stations. Ya see? Those old cars WERE useful for something - an electric air freshener. :)
[Preservationists would remind ya that urine IS "the official smell of New York" ... at least now that warm lacquer from the pre war cars no longer overpowers it in train stations. Ya see? Those old cars WERE useful for something - an electric air freshener. :)
I remember as a youth (pronounced yoot) with parents going down to 34th St. and 6th Ave. in the days when the R1-9's ruled the 6th Ave. subway. Through the incandescent lighting was the obvious smell of burned oil and I kid you not, a FOG. Those were the days !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yep ... that fog was genuine rail grease in the motor commutators that was burning ... the insides of the traction motors were FILTHY and very often crap that got into them would burn off - the cars never caught fire but between the motor contacts and the resistance grids, there was plenty of warmth to give off a glow and a stink.
Certainly better than those stupid pine tree things in the taxis. :)
Ah hah. somebody else remembers the R1-9 fog. Depending on the M/M every stop raised a cloud of blue brake smoke. Don't know why but I can't remember the BMT or IRT stuff doing that.
When I was a conductor by the time I made a round trip on the D with them because of my oily complexion I'd be dirty enough you couldn't tell I was a white man. One M/M in particular caused that, Dave Roman..but we sure made time on that line. Couldn't see 4 cars from my position.
As a M/M I tried to use a light brake and it usually kept the smoke down, and still roared into stations. Thanks for sharing Bill.[If I had a bad braking train then I had to lay the air on heavy.]
You could always tell the worst of the R 1-9s by the greasy storm door windows, which made it look like someone had a grill going inside the car.
Maybe heypaul was using his gas grill on the IND back then.:-)
Once in a while, I'd encounter a geasy storm door window on the R-1/9s; however, I don't recall any brake dust being kicked up. I do remember the embedded chicken wire in the storm door window glass. Even the R-10s had it, IIRC.
SOME of the R10's had it ... safety glass really hadn't come into its own back when that was done and was very expensive. FWIW, I've been on cars that got hit in the storm door by falling stuff in the tunnels and those windows made a mess when they broke. The wire did help.
I was surprised about Ed's mention of the brakes being the cause of "blue moon rising" but then again, the grease tended to get on the shoes as well ... but what constituted the "prewar car smell" as far as the early R's and the Q's and standards as far as *I* knew it was actually a combination of schmutz inside the motor housings (which would work their way onto the commutators and brushes) and would LITERALLY burn off combined with the schmutz that got on the resistor irons under the car ... probably more the latter than the former.
Years ago, curved rail sections were GREASED. Literally. Helped to cut down on screeches and tweets of the wheels as one side of the axle moved at a faster rate of speed than the opposite side, producing that screechy wheel noise on curves. So the "ta" in its wisdom did what many railroads did, they'd install grease guns when entering a curve on the track. Owing to the "mud flaps" on the wheel sets of the R1/9's, the schmutz would coat the underside of the car and it would work its way into the motors since they were pretty much open frame compared to today's Nippondenso sealed thingies.
And the schmutz would also spray onto the resistor irons ... there is a grid of metal and bus bar under an electric car, dating back to the "old school before transistors, DIACs, TRIACs, and SCR's" and you would control speed by letting metal eat the electrons instead of the motor itself. You also had, in addition to the resistors, interesting wiring combinations of how the motor ATE the DC on the third rail. You could put the separate "field coil" on the outside of the rotor and the "armature coil" in series or in parallel for a number of propulsion rates. The Pennsy GG1's had a 32 position controller to give you an idea of resistance and being able to jockey the voltage across pairs of motors could accomplish.
But as I remember it, motors would flame and self-extinguish and the resistors would glow and dim depending on how much the motorman punished his babies with just going rata-tat-tat shoving the controller from brake to the third notch and going full dynamic brake barreling into the stop just KNOWING they could trust the brakes. Back when the R1/9's ruled, they KNEW it was going to stop and hey, race cars were cool! A LOT of motormen were known for driving their train like they drove their cars. And ANY old timer will ADMIT it. :)
So I *could* see where panic braking would heat up the shoes enough to raise a stink too as THAT schmutz burned. But the main smell everyone remembers was really the lacquer on the motors smoking a bit along with the schmutz on the resistor elements. Those things glowed like a toaster if the motorman ran 'em hard and put 'em away wet. And those old cars LOVED it!
Did I ever tell you I also got a huge kick out of the "tch-ssss" sound of the magnet valve on those cars?
That and the gears was what made the whole thing a delight. You betcha!
Are you referring to that sound as in the brake relase, and not the variable load valve.?
When coming to a stop we'd make graduated releases and normally be in electric holding position. The brake pipe would be recharged in that postion , let a little air go..then back to holding, let it all go on stopping. A nice smooth stop, no waiting for the rear to release pneumatically.
What are you TALKING about??
The R9s did not have dynamic brakes.
Traction motors do not "flame and self-extinguish", or at least,
if they do, it's generally the first and last time until they
are sent out for a rewind.
Grid resistors don't glow unless there is something wrong with
the control package or the train is being operated in switching.
Your description of the field and armature connections is a
bit misleading. The field is never put in parallel with the
armature. On the R9s, the fields were "tapped", i.e. 3 wires
instead of 2. This performed the same function as field shunting
on SMEE equipment.
The primary contributor to the "pre-war" smell was the hot
steel brake shoes.
After working on the old type equipment for a brief time your handkerchiefs would have rust stains...if your sinuses were as active as mine. No kidding; all the braking was tread with cast iron shoes. But I'd rather be breathing iron dust than whatever composition they used now. If you'd ridden the rear end on a freight going downgrade you'd know what I mean. Smells nasty. Back to transit..of course equipment with dynamic brake doesn't make as much dust, back in the 50's-70's they figured 1/5 as many brake shoes wore out.
Yes, the loo there is filthy beyond all description; and the entire structure is porous and crumbling. It is time to kiss it goodbye. I hope they retain the elements of the old station in the new one. I am also wondering where the crew quarters will be located. And is the 9th track part of the deal too? And they simply MUST do something about those PIGEONS.
wayne
I'm told the original BMT facade will be cleaned up and installed after the terminal is renewed. There is also going to be a new crew room to be said at twice the size of the original one with more locker rooms and toilets. The asbestos abatement is currently underway now as the hot dog stands and storage rooms as well as the bar are under demolition of some sort. The Sea Beach canopies for 1 and 2 tracks are being stripped of asbestos. The dump is finally coming down.
Well well, it's a helluva good start in the right direction, but while they're about it how about some spirited business and government teams jumping across the street and see if something can be done to improve Coney Island's amusement park as well. Reopening the parachute jump and rebuilding the Tornado would be a good start. At least something is being done somewhere over there. BTW, does anyone know what the Cyclones colors will be? Hopefully, Blue and Orange, my favorites.
Hopefully, Blue and Orange, my favorites.
Those are the official colors of New York City and State.
Not to mention the Mets.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
The current color of the Cyclone is white with some red trim.
BMTJeff
Is this something new? Metro-North tickets can be purchased on the internet.
What'll they think up next! It's nice, I'm sure Monthly, Weekly, and 10 trips will sell like hotcakes off the site. I doubt anyone will wait 2-3 days for a one-way in the mail, though...
”Each Friday, Trains.com News Editor Bill Stephens takes an in-depth look at today’s rail industry.” Trains online
Today’s column is about the Conference of Mayors urging Congress and Dubya to subsidize passenger and commuter rail, since they have been subsidizing air and highway travel. They asked the Congress and White House to come up with a national passenger rail policy.
Maybe it's time to come up with a real, viable, replacement for Amtrak. One that won't be stuck in the 1930's, one that can move and adjust to the needs of passengers. IMHO, rail, especially commuter, has been gaining momentum for years now. i remember as a kid, the LIRR was pretty much empty on the weekends, now, even on sundays, trains are filled. Ridership keeps growing, depite overcrowding, and the subway's ridership is huge. New light rail systems are popping up like dandelions all over. Light rail in Colorado? That would have a high giggle factor 15 years ago.
Amtrak's not working. And they may become a road block real progress. Right now, california is contemplating a 700 mile, state wide, high speed (200mph) rial system. The WORST thing that could happen is having this watered down into a money shot in Amtrak's arm, and a few 100 or so mph diesels. That's not high speed rail. The Mid West regional Rail initiative started out as a network useing high speed, high acceleration DMUs. It's been reduced to a few surliners and more of the same for Amtrak. Pennsylvania's money for the Harrisburg line will upgrade that line, but right now Amtrak had a shortage of electrics. And it's going to get worse because the E-60's are going to be retired sooner or later, and can't run faster than 80mph anyway (BTW - MN has speed restrictions on them on the New Haven line, which is part of the reason you never seen them up here anymore).
Here's what I propose (among other things, this is incomplete):
1) Spin off the NEC and it's stubs into Acela, inc. Set a goal of high speed, high frequency, all electric service. Electrify the Springfield line, and down to Newport News. Elimanate all diesel operation, except for the Empire Corridor. This could be done over the next few years, and would allow a wholesale ditching of theaged F-40s. Have a "shootout" between the HHP-8 and the upcomming ALP-46s, and buy the better of the two. Start designing a more practical replacement for the Acela express sets.
2) Fund California's HSR system as planned. Get a REAL high speed system on the west coast. Stop calling diesels and talgo's "high speed". They're not.
3) Set a 2005 "drop dead" date for all long distance service. Replace with DMUs in a regional service, feeding airports or major cities.
4) For the few overnight routes that have "rail cruise" potential, find private operators. Operators would be contracted out to run these routes.
5) Take a real, fresh look, at the FRA's regulations. Start getting rid of useless stuff like Tier II, and start doing useful stuff (like mandated cab signals on all trains). Take an active, not passive, approach to safety, and make safety a system thing, not a structural standard for train cars.
6) Create a national ticketing system to service all rail operators. And I mean all, including commuter.
7) Look at existing routes and see which ones make sense.
Pennsylvania's money for the Harrisburg line will upgrade that line, but right now Amtrak had a shortage of electrics. And it's going to get worse because the E-60's are going to be retired sooner or later, and can't run faster than 80mph anyway.
Within the next year we will see 20 ACELA trainsets displacing AEM-7's from the corridor and that should be more than enough for Harrisburg service.
Spin off the NEC and it's stubs into Acela, inc.
If the government ever sells or spins off the NEC you can count on the local commuter rail (NJT, MTBA, and possibly ConnDot) authorities comming away with ownership and priority. The local constituants will pressure their reps for better train service. After all politics is local.
and would allow a wholesale ditching of theaged F-40s
Moot point. Amtrak is currently recieving 85 new P-42DC's from GE. As they arrive F40's will depart until they are all gone. I for one will miss them. They are great little engines. They still probably have more pep than the P42's.
Electrify the Springfield line,
The Springfield Line is a single track line with passing sidings. It lacks the density for electrifacation. At that rate you might as well electrify the Atlantic City Line. There are many more deserving routes.
Start designing a more practical replacement for the Acela express sets.
This implies there is something wrong with them. I suspect you would want the sucessor to be some sort of cramped, bouncy, death box.
Fund California's HSR system as planned. Get a REAL high speed system on the west coast. Stop calling diesels and talgo's "high speed". They're not.
California lacks the rail infrastructure and proper geography for a hi-speed main line. California has made its bed and it deserves to become a crapy hell hole. Something needs to be done so people stop living there.
Set a 2005 "drop dead" date for all long distance service.
How would you then suggest I get around to places? I'm sure as hell not taking a plane and driving is a pain in the ass. Having to ride a bus is a fate that should be reserved for condemed criminals. It looks like I'll have to hop an intermodal and ride like a hobo.
Replace with DMUs in a regional service, feeding airports or major cities.
People will ride trains if and only if they are so comfortable as to off set the advantages of a car. DMU's are not comfortable. They are small, noisy, smelly and they vibrate. They are a cheap substitute for real trains used by operators that are trying to stave off bankruptcy. Remember the goal of rail also is to get people off of airplanes.
Start getting rid of useless stuff like Tier II,
?????
and start doing useful stuff (like mandated cab signals on all trains)
Your cab signal plan is ludicrous. I assume that you mean that all line get cab signals because any train that runs on a line with CSS must have cab signals. Forcing RR's to install and maintain cab signals on lines that corrently don't even warrent fixed automatic block signals would present such a burden as to drive many railroads bankrupt.
Take an active, not passive, approach to safety, and make safety a system thing, not a structural standard for train cars.
The FRA currently takes both active and passive safety roles. Maybe you should try reading some of their regulations. They are online at http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_99/49cfrv4_99.html The FRA has gone as far to mandate how far crew rest areas have to be from active railroad tracks.
Create a national ticketing system to service all rail operators. And I mean all, including commuter.
Why not a narionally owned and operated rail system? How about a monopoly? I thought you liked diversity and competition.
/*Within the next year we will see 20 ACELA trainsets displacing AEM-7's from the corridor and that should be more than enough for Harrisburg service. */
Yeah, right. Acela was supposed to be up and running right ow, remember? on a 3 hour schedule, remember?
/*Moot point. Amtrak is currently recieving 85 new P-42DC's from GE. As they arrive F40's will depart until they are all gone. I for one will miss them. They are great little engines. They still probably have more pep than the P42's. */
Why the hell is Amtrak buying DC power? DC is obsolete. It sucks. It's expensive to maintain, slow to accelerate, prone to dammage, flashover, and overheating. Even the LIRR isnt' stupid enough to buy DC power anymore.
/*The Springfield Line is a single track line with passing sidings. It lacks the density for electrifacation. At that rate you might as well electrify the Atlantic City Line. There are many more deserving routes. */
No, it was a 2 track line until Amtrak "To serve you better" decided to sigle track it, so you sit all day waiting at passing sidings. CT is stating to get serious about commuter rail, and the Springfield line is a natural for it. Hell, even amtrak people I've talked to thinks it makes sense.
Start naming other routes that deserve it.
/*This implies there is something wrong with them. I suspect you would want the sucessor to be some sort of cramped, bouncy, death box. */
Grow up. Better yet, go take a course or two in modern engineering. If you actually understood about how things are designed, you'd understand why the Acela is a poor design.
Oh yeah, and never ever EVER ride on the LIRR or Metro-North. You see, the railroads that carry together roughly Amtrak's entire yearly ridership every 2 months, in perfect safety, also run what is probbably the lightest mainline equipment in the US. An M-2, with it's dual power traction equipment and all, weighs less than an Amfleet does. An M-1 weighs less than 100,000 lbs. Yet both have held up perfectly over the last few years, and both have done perfectly well in accidents. Of course, since their lightweight, they must be deathtraps and it's only amazing luck that they've done so well in the last 30 years, right?
/*California lacks the rail infrastructure and proper geography for a hi-speed main line. California has made its bed and it deserves to become a crapy hell hole. Something needs to be done so people stop living there. */
Interesting. California thinks that HSR is not only feaseable, but worth sinking 25 billion into. That's 25 billion of their own money. They've done a lot of the work to study it. If the feds funded it, construction coul pobbably begin in a year or two. Hell, they're already planning on 9or already starting to?) electrifying Caltrain into SF...
/*How would you then suggest I get around to places?*/
Drive, fly, bus.
/* I'm sure as hell not taking a plane and driving is a pain in the ass.*/
Driving a PITA? Hell, I'm looking forward to the warm weather and getting out on my bike again...
/*Having to ride a bus is a fate that should be reserved for condemed criminals. */
So is spending 3 days on a train for a 6 hour plane flight. YOU may think taking 3 days to get there is ok, but if you ever have to travel to the west coast for business, guess what? You're flying. Nobody's going to give you a week off so you can take the train.
This is the 21st century - people want, and need, to be there today.
/*It looks like I'll have to hop an intermodal and ride like a hobo. */
illegal, and very dangerous.
/*People will ride trains if and only if they are so comfortable as to off set the advantages of a car.*/
Wrong. Speed sells. Cheap sells. Nobody's going to take a train if they can drive there faster.
/* DMU's are not comfortable. They are small, noisy, smelly and they vibrate.*/
That's why dieselized lines in Europe are using them more and more? Stop acting as if every DMU out there is a POS like the RDCs were. They've gotten a LOT better in the last 50 years.
/*They are a cheap substitute for real trains used by operators that are trying to stave off bankruptcy.*/
"Real trains"? What are they, imitation trains? Holograms? Big cardboard boxes the everyone just sits in and goes "chug chug". Sorry, but MU operation is the future. At least everywhere where they dont' apply 1800's logic and thinking to rail equipment.
/*Remember the goal of rail also is to get people off of airplanes. */
So? Why can't a DMU do that?
/*????? */
Requiring trains to have crush strengths that could support an ocean liner are stupid. BTW, even if the Acela *did* stay intact with a collision into a bridge, the deceleration forces would destroy the interiors of all the cars, which would inevitably kill alot, probbably a majority, of the passengers. You'd open up an uncrumpled train car to find a pile of seats, luggage, and bodies in one end.
/*Your cab signal plan is ludicrous. */
Yeah, mandating safety equpment is stupid. Hell, we should pull seat belts out o cars, black boxes out of planes, and emergency brakes off trains because, hey, let's face it, sfety equipment just adds cost.
/*I assume that you mean that all line get cab signals because any train that runs on a line with CSS must have cab signals.*/
Unless you've got a branch stub that gets one train a day, yes.
/* Forcing RR's to install and maintain cab signals on lines that corrently don't even warrent fixed automatic block signals would present such a burden as to drive many railroads bankrupt. */
Yeah yeah, and forceing the RRs to install air brakes would bankrupt them, forceing them to instal automatic couplers would bankrupt them. Oh yeah, and those drastic work rules that say you can't keep the crew working 24/7 - those killed the railroads too.
When you start selling this type of equipment in major quanities, it gets real cheap. The first computers sold were expensive as hell, but today, I can buy 1,000 times the power for about $5. Or $6 if I want 10,000 times the power.
/*The FRA currently takes both active and passive safety roles. Maybe you should try reading some of their regulations.*/
800,000 lb static compressive load, minimum on trailling cars and a whooping 2 million lb compressive load minimum for cab / mu cars? That's pathetic. 2 million lbs is far beyond what you'd ever encounter in real life.
You'd think, the way some of these regulations are, thats the FRA's intent is to kill of passenger rail.
The rollover/crush standards, if taken litterally, are a bit excessive too.
The other trouble is the FRA thinks an MU is a locomotive. It's not. It's very different from a locomotive. But try to explain that to the Feds....
Oh yeah, and never ever EVER ride on the LIRR or Metro-North. You see, the railroads that carry together roughly Amtrak's entire yearly ridership every 2 months, in perfect safety, also run what is probbably the lightest mainline equipment in the US. An M-2, with it's dual power traction equipment and all, weighs less than an Amfleet does. An M-1 weighs less than 100,000 lbs. Yet both have held up perfectly over the last few years, and both have done perfectly well in accidents. Of course, since their lightweight, they must be deathtraps and it's only amazing luck that they've done so well in the last 30 years, right?
An even better comparison would be the French TGV system. In the 20+ years it's been operating, there has not been a single passenger fatality due to an accident. How many passengers have died on Amtrak over the same time period?
-- David
Chicago, IL
And who owns the infrastructure on which the TGV runs? And how much losses does the SNCF make every year? Yes I mean the SNCF - say if we took off these shite 1960s EMUs they run, I will sit here and watch the TGV's patronage plummet. You accountant types don't realise that HIGH SPEED RAIL SURVIVES ONLY DUE TO LOCAL PATRONAGE.
Accountant type? You apparently have no clue who I am or what I do for a living. And you have obviously never seen my bank statement.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Here's my rail alternative:
1) Nationalize the main trunks of the national rail network -- hey we're heading for a rail monopoly anyway with all the mergers -- and put it under a Federal Reserve style board, with some members appointed by the railroads and some by President and Congress.
2) Fund a massive interstate-style upgrade, with double and quadruple tracked lines and no grade crossings to allow coast to coast 60+ mile per hour service. Use higher fuel taxes.
3) Then fund ongoing maintenance of the network with charges for freight railroads, who would bid for travel slots in Chicago-style futures auction (perhaps the rail system's headquarters should be Chicago). You'd have competing freight service across the country.
4) In exchange for the massive upgrade in #2, the system would have to allow passenger railroads to take a certain share of the slots for free. You'd have competing passengers service wherever the market justified it. I'd bet you'd have three companies competing in the NEC.
1) Nationalize the main trunks of the national rail network
Is someone here trying to recreate Railtrack in the USA? I think if any of you had a look at the UK rail scene recently you will know how NOT to run a railroad. If the train operators don't own the infrastructure on which they run, the whole thing goes up in the air. Ladbroke Grove, need I say more?
Lexcie
Nobody has died because they haven't been involved in a majour accident. Remember the German ICE train that had a wheel failure and went into a bridge? About 100 people died. The train was too light weight to withstand the impact.
Actually, yes I do now. Wow, that was bad. Even the British heavyweight rolling stock Intercity 125 did not fare too well in high-speed head-on collisions. I say, safety isn't THAT important - it's not important enough to justify the $300 billion (or thereabouts) that SNCF is losing/wasting every year. British Rail is the *cheapest* European railroad to provide the service that it does, and we don't kill many more people than Romanian State Railways.
Lexcie
Nobody has died because they haven't been involved in a majour accident.
My point exactly.
-- David
Chicago, IL
DC traction is out of date, Phil? Remember AC traction is only required for tractive effort - and for high speed runs DC traction is far more efficient as you can go into weak field and run faster, cuz the back EMF is reduced. I remember your helping with the Electrical Engineering type matters on my webpage. Have you forgotten what you've taught me? Lexcie
Nobody's going to take a train if they can drive there faster.
Horse hockey. I can drive home to North Carolina in eight hours, by train and car (door-to-door) takes ten and a half. But I'd much prefer Amtrak. Unfortunately, most of the trips I make are associated with getting one of the cars back to NC for state inspection, or require a stopoff somewhere en route (our younger daughter lives in D.C.) and Amtrak's relatively infre quent schedule doesn't allow for that. But for New York-Toronto or Montréal - other favorite trips of ours - the train is the only way to go.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would rather take a train, too. However, you and I are railfans, so we are biased toward taking trains. The general population isn't, so speed is going to be the primary factor.
I think that train can compete with cars. Many people choose to drive long distances (remember the family vacation cliche') and long distance train travel is a reasonable alternative. The train is usually just as fast if you factor in stops the car has to make. The train keeps moving while you sleep, a car flys into a ditch. You can escape from the annoying kids in a train, you can't in a car. You can stretch you legs easier and you don't have to do anything. In a at least one person has to drive. Trains are safer, serve better food (usually), give smoother rides and they take you downtown. Amtrak should really try for more Rail/Rent-a-Car packages.
Anyone remember ... the "AutoTrain?" Heh.
Yeah, I see ads for it on TV. Did you think it went away?
Actually I did ... haven't seen any since I moved upstate and just assumed that since it was part of CSX, they had blown that off as well.
Not only is it alive and well, it's so alive and so well (financially) that Amtrak would like to purchase more equipment and run additional complete sections of the train at certain times of the year. What they've had to settle for is running the train in three sections at peak times using existing and leased equipment: section 1, nothing but automobiles, using leased auto racks and hauled by host road power; section 2, the passenger equipment, including additional cars siphoned from other routes; section 3, automobiles, in the dedicated Amtrak racks. Use of the leased bi-level racks on these peak trains has the added benefit of allowing Amtrak to handle large SUVs, which they cannot do in their own lower racks. (The new racks they would like to purchase would accomodate them.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was a private company, until Amtrak took over. Too bad they can't extend it to NY or Chicago, because as it is, it's the only non-corridor service that makes a healthy profit.
-Hank
an earlier expansion plan is what killed the original privately owned Auto Train. A DAMNED SHAME
The mayor wants King Kong to STOP tearing down the 6th Avenue El!
Eugene Garfield (founder of the private Auto-Train) started a service from Louisville to tap the Chicago, Detroit, et al, to Florida markets just as interest rates started to skyrocket; the cost of the borrowed money killed the whole company.
There was passenger rail from Detroit to FL??? When I was growing up in FL (born in Detroit) I asked my parents before every car trip to Detroit why we couldn't take a train (not knowing that arriving in Detroit without a car would be utterly senseless), and my parents said because there was no train from FL to Detroit; we would have to change trains in DC or Philly which was way out of thhe way.
There was passenger rail from Detroit to FL???
People were expected to drive from Detroit to Louisville to get the Auto-train.
I've used the Auto-Train on several occasions and find it outstanding albiet usually late. It must be a popular train (Va-Fla) because the last time I rode, the train was 52 cars long. Food is better than average and most time you meet some very interesting people, too. I have only one gripe if you can call it that. They don't carry bikes during Bike-week. If they ever figure out how to transport them safely, they'd really clean up.
A modified Thrall Door Boxcar with stalls that have a slotted track for the wheels of the bike and nylon clad shackles to hold the wheels in place, High speed trucks,tightlock couplers, cushion underframe and an ABDW brake system with ABDG Graduated release accessory portion. Hmmm, Sounds like Hog Heaven. Tell Amtrak.
Thanks John, Last year, two of my buddies were coming back from the Biketoberfest when they were caught in a snow storm in Va. Their trailer with their bikes went off the road - fortunately with little damage to the precious cargo. Thanks for the suggestion - perhaps AMTRAK will listen. Since Daytona hosts bike weeks twice a year, There's Americade in Lake George, The Honda Hoot in Asheville, NC plus the big one in Sturges, SD. There's a real market for the service.
>>>the train was 52 cars long
Dude:
Wow - even considering the number of auto-carrying cars! How many locomotives headed that train?
Do they still run the auto train? What does it cost?
My experience traveling to Florida (and now that I've done Disney I don't have to do it again) was that the airfare from NY was cheap, and the rental car was cheaper. Perhaps the auto-train appeals to snowbirds making the trip once every six months, and taking their car with them.
Typically, the Auto-train off-season is about $125 for driver and car + $70 for one passenger. For that you get Dinner, a movie, a late night snack and breakfast it's not that costly. Considering that the drive will take 2 days. 1 night at a hotel $50, 2 dinners $50, 2 Breakfasts $20, 900 miles of gas @ 25 MPG = 36 gallons @ $1.50 per = $54. That's $174 to drive the 900 miles from lorton, Va, to Sanford, Fl. not including speeding tickets from good old Bubba. Flying & rental car for 2 people is likely comparable but there's nothing that beats sitting up in the dome lounge at night, having a drink, maybe playing cards or chatting and watching the moonlit scenery pass slowly by.
(Flying & rental car for 2 people is likely comparable but there's nothing that beats sitting up in the dome lounge at night, having a drink, maybe playing cards or chatting and watching the moonlit scenery pass slowly by. )
I considered the train, but the wife wasn't interested. She considered it just another eccentricity, like chatting on Subtalk or taking a job with the TA. I only wish I could take the train to Tulsa this February. Air travel is torture for me -- no space, can't move, no air.
Larry:
Train Dude posted the fares for the AUto-Train, and they do sound reasonable to me as well. Driving down to Virginia just to take the train is not something that I would enjoy, but it is probably necessary (in order for Amtrak to attract enough D.C. and NE Corridor passengers south of NYC).
>>> Air travel is torture for me -- no space, can't move, no air.
Concerning air travel and space: sometimes I think that even Greyhound is almost an equal of the airlines as far as space is concerned! And there is no "turbulence" along the way , either. :)
-cordially,
turnstiles
Driving down to Virginia just to take the train is not something that I would enjoy, but it is probably necessary (in order for Amtrak to attract enough D.C. and NE Corridor passengers south of NYC).
Auto-Train equipment is too high to fit under the catenary.
Auto-Train equipment is too high to fit under the catenary.
Well not necessarily. Its max hight would be 20 feet 2 inches (that's double stack clearance) and I know that with Pans locked down PRR engines were 15 feet tall. I believe that the pans can extend the extra 6 feet. Anyway the point of this is that the Autotrain could concievably run accross the Patomic, up the Conrail freight line to Landover, on the NEC to like BOWIE and then into a new Auto Train facility there. It might also use the CSX route.
You're forgetting that the catenary dips for low clearance bridges, station canopies, etc. They would need to find a completely catenary-free routing, which in the case of NY Metro to the DC area would be rather circuitous.
And it's Potomac.
-Hank
Well I'm not sure how many low clearance bridges there are between LANDOVER and BOWIE. The low clearance bridge its self would probably present more of a problem than the catenary.
The catenary dips even lower than the bridge, and that's the problem.
-Hank
Mike is also forgetting the Baltimore and Hudson River tunnels. The wire clearance is so tight that the proposed 25KV 60hz conversion would have had the voltage in the tunnels at 12KV because of arcing at the higher voltage.
The overall wire clearance is tight enough overall that double stacks are prohibited in the NE Corridor.
As to routing a north of Lorton Auto-Train, bear in mind that CSX, whose trackage would be the preferred routing to Newark, is notorously hostile to passenger trains - anywhere.
Well my suggestion was that the Auto Train only go north to BOWIE interlocking about 8 miles north of the DC border. There is a junction with a secodary track there and a location could be found to build a new recieving yard.
Autotrain could concievably run accross the Patomic, up the Conrail freight line to Landover, on the NEC to like BOWIE and then into a new Auto Train facility there. It might also use the CSX route.
That's exactly why I said what was written about Auto-Train on CSX. ANYWHERE. CSX is on record as opposing passenger trains on their trackage. Existing pasenger service (ATK, MARC & VRE) has nothing but trouble with CSX, and passenger trains are often held for CSX's freights. They are totally opposed to any new or additional passenger services on their railroad. Ask MARC about negotiations with CSX about delays on their ex-B&O routes Baltimore-Washington and Washington - Brunswick. The Maryland Dept. of Transportation (MDOT) has been proposing an extension of the Brunswick line to Frederick. They would like to start it in 2003, but 3 guesses who's holding up the service?
There's air, its full of cigerette smoke. (Well at least on Air France).
Considered telling her about deep-vein thrombosis?
-Hank
Since you have to drive a significant distance from NYC just to pick up the AutoTrain, only a hard-core rail fan from these parts would ride it. Personally, I won't fly, so I took Florida service out of NYP a while back.
My future mother-in-law took the Auto-train. She went down with her snowbird mother, who, with her companion, drove to VA for the train. She flew home.
-Hank
2 Dash-8s headed the consist. I'm pretty sure they are 5kHP each.
The P42 has 4200 hp. Most western SuperLiner trains and requisite string of intermodal trailers usually boast 3 or 4 P42's.
But since the Auto-Train dosen't make any stops acceleration is not that important. I would also bet that the non-passenger cars do not have tight lock couplers so the 2 head end cars can start the Auto-Train like a typical freight train, one car at a time.
Autotrain does indeed stop in the Carolinas, for water and a meet with the northbound Silver Meteor. And all Amtrak-owned cars are equipped with tightlocks, since they can wind up anywhere in the consist, although only MHC and express cars have run-through cables for HEP.
-Hank
How could 2 P42's start a 53 car train?
On a 52 car Auto-Train what is the ratio between passenger cars and the auto carriers?
Would as much as 80% of the train be car carriers?
When you say "bikes", you are referring to motorcycles and not bicycles, aren't you?
For example, the consist of a particular November Autotrain:
2 engines
1 transition dorm
6 sleepers (2 deluxe, 4 standard)
5 coaches
3 diners
2 lounge-diners
10 bilevel carriers
4 van carriers
6 trilevel carriers
[Courtesy: Rail Travel News]
Thanks John, It's not as lopsided a ratio as I would have thought!
What is a transition dorm? Is that like a crew car?
Is smoking permitted anywhere on the train?
"What is a transition dorm? Is that like a crew car?"
Yes, it serves two purposes:
1) lounge and dorm for crew
2) on Superliner or other bi-level trains, a transition (hence the name) between the single-level locomotives and mail car ahead and the bi-level passenger cars behind.
Thanks Again!
I had never heard that name before.
as title
Boredom is usually not due to the surroundings but the failure of the bored person to interact with them. Perhaps if you contributed something of interest, someone may respond and perhaps you may find you either have something to offer or you may actually learn something.
If you want excitement, I just called 911 on some drunk guy passed out on the steps of the school across the street from me. I've done this before, and they just send a cop car to check 'em out, make sure he's ok; which is all I expected. But this time, they sent an entire fire-truck with about 7 guys on board. (I guess that's part of living in bougie Society Hill). He got up and walked with them to the truck. And he didn't look like a bum. Although why some frat guy character was passed out in the snow all by himself is beyond me. Anyway, I did my good samaritan thing for the week (as a lot of people actually stepped over him in passing).
Touché.
...speed is going to be the primary factor.
I'll disagree. Speed only enters in when I'm going west to visit my grandchildren - Amtrak serves their town (Kingman, Arizona) so I could go essentially door-to-door by train, but four days versus fourteen hours via train/air/rent-a-car does make a difference since I'm still in the workforce. But for trips of shorter duration the train is by far the better choice. The older I get, the less comfortable I am sitting for long hours behind the wheel. I don't drive at night unless it's absolutely necessary, ditto for bad weather, and I prefer to stop and eat someplace rather than grabbing a burger on the go. So the time tradeoff isn't as bad as it seems. From our house in Eatontown, New Jersey to our home in Bunn, North Carolina it takes over eight hours driving (two quick stops, one of which is to grab a burger to go) or nine plus if we stop for a meal. (No gas stops - my Windstar can make the 465-mile run on 3/4 of a tank.) By NJT/Amtrak to Rocky Mount, NC and then a car ride home takes just under eleven hours, and I don't end up needing a day to recover. With our younger daughter at Georgetown Law now, though, I usually have to make a detour into D.C. one direction or the other (or both) and that means driving (and a hotel room) becomes the mode of choice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
800,000 lb static compressive load, minimum on trailling cars and a whooping 2 million lb compressive load minimum for cab / mu cars? That's pathetic. 2 million lbs is far beyond what you'd ever encounter in real life.
Most engineers account for a 100% safety factor when designing stuff. For example, an elevator with a maximum weight rating of 10,000 lbs can actually handle 20,000 lbs. A highway with a speed limit of 60 is designed so that speeds of 120 are safe. I'm no train equipment expert, but the numbers you state probably account for that safety factor.
Philip, if you have your way, America's railroads will once again be plummeted into the dark ages in the way they had been here on British Rail. It was some Dr Beeching in the 1960s who recommended the withdrawal of intercity trains and replaced them with DMUs and connections to high speed mainline trains, he also withdrew many overnight services and closed many branches. Today, no one uses trains here. DMUs are shite - underfloor engines - I travel on them every morning and they do my head in. They also shut down if there is any hint of snow on the track. Your European thinking is unforgivable, especially in a part of the world where there is still a proper rail service. Tell me, is this how you would travel from Lancaster, PA to Bowling Green, OH:
DMU from Lancaster to Harrisburg
All electric service from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh Airport
Plane from Pittsburgh Airport to Cleveland Airport
All electric service from Cleveland Airport to Toledo, OH
DMU from Toledo, OH to Bowling Green, OH.
I would rather travel on the Amtrak Pennsylvanian any day, thanks. And it will take less time when you take into account of the connexion timings. City dwellers like you do not realise intercity routes survive on suburban patronage. I've been at ScotRail for a while now - and if anyone knows how to run rural railroads, we do. What's more, we make a profit. http://www.scotrail.co.uk/
Lexcie
road it yesterday and today. the storm door had graffitti on it and on the wall on the other end of the car next to the door. i assume there was also vandalism for a pole screwed under the seat looked like it was pulled loose right next to were the graffitti on the wall took place. will these vandals ever quit?
Some things will never change.....
-Stef
and they never will
I wonder how much trouble they would be in with the TA for messing up and 1.5 million dollar piece of equipment. Community service inside th TA cleaning cars and stations for like sounds like a good deal. It will probably cost them $20,000 and a year to fix that car knowing how the TA is with money :)
Shawn.
yes they do have community service for them. if they get caught vandalising trains and other transit vehicles, they have to clean them for a week.
A week isn't long enough at all. They should get at least a month. Send them to Stillwell to clean the men's room while they're at it also :)
Shawn.
Heh. With TOOTHBRUSHES!
With two months in jail
I was on a R-142A recently it had scratches on the door windows already!!!!!!!!!!!! a year from now it will look like the R62's personally I think its disgusting.
Well, what choice is there? Scratchitti is a fact of life. The only way to avoid is to have a windowless car that is covered with Mylar on the inside.
Can't the also coat the interior with Mylar? It would be a little shiny.. but scratch resistant :)
Shawn.
And some employee facillities. I have had to use employee facillities in some stations which I will not name that make stillwell look spotless--holes in the floor, wont flush, when flushed the other bowls overflow, holes in walls and ceilings, total filth, etc.
If you are not going to name the facilities, why waste bandwidth bringing it up?
Peace,
ANDEE
I am stating it as a comparison-- they are worse than stillwell. I could get into trouble if I named them.
bandwidth- it is no more a waste of bandwidth than threads about food courts closing or a former president pardoning a subtalker.
Maybe it is time for a kill file
This SubTalker joins the NYCT crew starting on Monday in the Title of Station Agent. I've got all my paper work in, got measured for a uniform, and was sworn in. I'll be in training at 207th Street Yard. It would appear though that I am the last person to be called off the list, in the last class, possibly ever. If the TA gets its way, the Title will be done away with.
But I can only move upward from here.....
-Stef
As I told you in a private E-mail, I couldn't be happier for you. However, I called one of my friends at the TA to ask about your assignment. Did you know that they have you assigned to 91st Street and Broadway?
Where is 91 Street? Isn't that a ghost station or something? Am I travelling back in time?
-Stef
Hey old pal, does this mean that redbirds rule?
-Stef
A view of your new assignment:
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh I see. Thanks for the clarification!
-Stef
Don't worry Stef. I have the 'inside scoop' and have heard that you will be stationed at 'Avenue L' on the Canarsie Line. I know you are fond of that line so you should feel at home (besides, I'm in the neighborhood and can drop by to say 'hello').
;-)
BMTman
Avenue L? You meam to tell me that we now charge 1.50 fare to board the subway in Branford? This sure works. The Association has passed a bill in which collection of the fare is done with the MetroCard.
Then again if I'm back on the Canarsie Line in 1924, collecting fares, then I was 25 in 1924, and am actually 101 years old.... I wasn't born in 1975, I was born in 1899!!! No fare collection would be complete without a BU pulling in front of the station.
-Stef
Geez, come on, guys ... stop giving Stef backdated information.
We ALL know that he's going to start his first assignment at Roosevelt Ave. It's underground and grafitti free :)
--Mark
Your first assignment, of course, will be to clean up the graffiti and fix the bathrooms...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
... and the vending machine needs to be fixed, too, with all those botles of soda on the floor :)
--Mark
cool assingment, who ever gets 91st gets the pleasure of viewing my art work
You wouldn't be responsible for the "REVSOUP", er, "posts", all over the system, too, would you?
--Mark
Welcome to the proverbial car barn! May your board always be straight.
Thanks......
-Stef
Unless some personnel thing gets stalled again (I was told I had the job three month ago), I will also be joining the NYCT, a week from Monday, in capital budget. I would have made an announcement at the time, but might as well not waste a thread.
Perhaps I'll finally find out why these improvements cost so damn much money. But my specific duties will involve the review of signal improvements, and any information anyone can pass on would be appreciated.
So, you'll be reviewing Signal Improvements?
Larry, look into the specifics regarding the Canarsie Line if you can. CBTC is due there first, and new signaling systems are an important ingredient for the 'modernization' of the line.
BMTman
BTW, Congrats and best of luck.
BMTman
Come out and ride around with me on the Midnights and you can see for yourself. In the 3 months I've been working overnight, I've damn near hit three or four Signal people as well as bunches of signals that don't work as intended.
one wonders whether any of these were among those "inpected" on vacation days.
[I've damn near hit three or four Signal people as well as bunches of signals that don't work as intended.]
Hey Alex. Just don't hit any SubTalkers or bumper-blocks! :-)
BMTman
(Come out and ride around with me on the Midnights and you can see for yourself. In the 3 months I've been working overnight, I've damn near hit three or four Signal people as well as bunches of signals that don't work as intended.)
Perhaps I'll take you up on that at some point. I'm an economist, not an engineer, so it will take a while to figure out what it is I'm evaluating. I'll mostly be handling the $$$ aspects, I guess.
I kinda figured you weren't an engineer, but I have this sneaky suspicion that a lot of money gets wasted in this organization because the bean-counters (I can say this - I'm six classes short of being one) don't have a clue what's going on in the reality of the subway. Personally, I think that most of the people downtown should be forced to come out on the road for the first-hand experience at least once every two years or so.
(Personally, I think that most of the people downtown should be forced to come out on the road for the first-hand experience at least once every two years or so.)
Always, in every field, analysts and managers should spend some time on the time. City Planning would work a lot better if its employees spent some time in the Department of Buildings trying to make sense of all those stupid rules.
At least I'll be in a line agency.
Even DoB employees don't understand those silly rules.
Larry, Congrats & best of luck.
Mr t__:^)
Best of luck to you, Larry! We know this area is now in good hands.
--Mark
What is the oath of office?
I swear to blah, blah, blah and to uphold the constitution of the State of New York blah, blah, blah so help me god. Cough up 15 cents please.
I thought it was something like that.
Thanks, zman.
BMTman
All part of the ceremonials so you can do jail time if you screw up. Political subdivisions love that kinda stuff. :)
Well, Congratulations, Stef!!!
This has been a long-time coming for you.
We MUST celebrate at some point in the weeks ahead (prehaps aboard a certain division A car???)
Best,
BMTman
Thanks.... What the @#$#? Celebrating in an A Division Car? In or out of the system? Hey don't get me started on that. Hehe... FYI, I went back to work on 6688.
-Stef
Welcome to Transit! Glad to have you on board.
Do you have any info that yours will be the last class !
The last training I had they said we'd be given new duties. We do have a no lay-off clause in the contract.
We have many people with over 20 -25 years that could be retiring soon.this could lead to attrition cuts.
Be sure to check your e-mail. I sent you more info.
As far as I know this is the last class. What happens after that is anyone's guess. I did receive your e-mail, and thanks for the kind words.
New duties? What could they possibly have in mind?
-Stef
When I went for my MVM training they claimed we'd be doing things such as station inspection( currently done by supervision), customer service outside the booth (MVM jobs- yes, they exist now!), we'd be opening a booth for rush hours.
CONGRATULATIONS
Stef:
Congratulations!!!
I wish you the best and more........
Thanks, Mike. Is there anything happening at Linden Yard? 6371-75 should be in the system tonight.....
-Stef, NYCT Station Agent
AFAIK, I did not see any movements. However, there was signal problems on the Livonia el, causing the 3 and later 4 trains to blow their horns as they "key by" the red signal. This was around 9pm.
Congrats Steff!!
May I be the first person to ask you for A FUN PASS!! Please here is my $4 I want my fun pass (as I bang on the glass of your token booth).
Well I'll just have to get a picture if/when Subwaybuff is ever your lunch relief haha...
Great going Steff.
Hey you'll never know. You wanna a fun pass, you'll get one.... Subway Buff as my lunch relief? HA! Anything goes.
-Stef
Lou and Stef-- Each booth has an assigned lunch relief and a time they would be there (of course we can run slightly early or late.)
A lunch relief can be pulled to man a booth in case a station agent has to go home for illness or emergency or for a part-time booth, if there is no coverage (the station agent does not come in) until they get a permanent coverage.
I work in all four boroughs. Since Stef will be extra he could be working a booth I give lunch too at sometime during my tour. Stef could be bumped by the regular and then sent to the complete opposite end of the system.
Pictures are not allowed of the booth or booth interior for security concerns and we are not allowed to leave the booth except to pull the wheels, lunch when the lunch relief comes and authorized comfort breaks.
Therefore- even if I post my schedule here, there is no guarantee I would give lunch to stef (or another other specific station agent who is not the regular person for that booth.)
Sorry :-(
SubBuff you are always too serious, a credit to ya. I'll do a thumb skectch of you two then.... (you have a nice thumb??) >G
Thanks! You obviously missed my previous post! anyway,,,,
even if Stef were assigned to a booth to which I give lunch he could be bumped and if bumped he could be anywhere in the four boroughs!
Also- even if Stef were not bumped, I could be pulled to work a booth for someone that never came in or left early due to illness, family emergency or official business (pick, medical, etc.) In that case I would never make it to the remaining booths on my schedule.
For that reason we can not with 100% certainty where we will be unless we pick a booth and then we may be pulled if they close the booth for station renovations and we were on vacation or ill and did not see the bulletin.
the way it works when you are extra.. you call each day(or night) during your shift at the appopinted time for your job for the next work day. On your second day off you call during the time you would be workign for your job for the first work day back. if you work nights the time to call is 115 to 415 am. If you are off Tuesday and Wednesday you would call at 115am to 415am on Wed.(Tuesday/Wed. overnight) for your job on Thursday.(Wed/Thurs. overnight).
I am a perfect person, I can do nothing wrong, nothing wron, nothin wrog, nthing....
malfunction, malfunction.cease message. reboot. lockl up. Blue screen of death..reboot..cold reboot...
That better :-)
Yah, I'm real busy at work so I'm missing posts even with it set back for a week.
That system of calling up only one day in advance blows chunks. No wonder co-workers that get promoted say that they'll never go back to clerk.
I have met many S/As on the road which did not like supervision and went back to the booth!
The calling in process is only when you are extra--if you pick a booth, or if you pick RDOs (you work other people's day(s) off) or if you pick Lunch or Lunch RDO (you work other lunch relief's day(s) off)
then you do not have to call in.
I have been working NLR and NLR RDO (Night Lunch Relief and Night lUnch Relief Regular Days Off) for 1 1/2 years and UI like doing lunches.
Say, I'm interested in applying to NYCTA as a station attendant, or whatever theyre calling you guys nowadays-tell me about how you applied, how hard the exam was, your score, how long it took to "get the call" from them, and how you'd generally rate the job, as I'm very interested in it!!!! Thanks in advance! sincerely, Thom
The title is Station Agent. Check the Chief each week for the next test session. You'll have to get a postal money order and send in the application to take the test.
Now assume you are selected to take the test. You will be sent info on where and when to report for the test which I found to be quite easy.
I took the test 10/1996 and was called for first interview 8/1997 and drug test and physical 1/1998. They did not like sone of my documentation so I had to get more proof to satisfy. Having soloved that I went back to 1250 Broadway, they accepted the additional proof and was sworn in on the spot and told when to report for ID photo and more paperwork.
I found the test to be very easy. My test was basically reading. They printed a rule and asked multiple choice questions on that rule.
I enjoy my job- I have been with Transit for almost 3 years and I love my job.
Hey, "Buff", thanks for the info!!!! BTW, what exactly is "the chief", anyway? I've so far only been checking the official MTA website,and clicking on "employment", where strangely enough, any job worth having such as T/O, C/R, and yours, doesn't appear to be offered anymore!! Anyway, it appears that maybe theyre using an alternate media form to post employment info, though. Please write back, as I am someone with an associates degree in applied railroad operations 6 classes away from completeing the old bachelor's in Mass Rail Transit Operations. As you might imagine, I've actually been training and hoping for this job for quite some time, and obviously hope to make a lifelong career out of this!!
P.S. About a year or so ago, I saw the position of "Station Manager"
being offered at (honest to god, no joke) $140K/year!! Is this like a "Station Supervisor", or is actually the SS's boss? The inside dope on becoming a T/O or C/R would be nice, if you know anything about this, too!!! Yours in subway camradderie, Thomas :>
The Chief is a weekly newspaper that lists upcoming civil service tests, results from previous tests and the like. You can find it at many Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn newsstands.
Peace,
ANDEE
Roger that, Andee, and thanks!! :> peace, Thomas
One of the problems Stef will find out in working for the TA is that their rules and regulations actually may prevent them from helping customers adequately. Fun Passes, for example, due to TA rules and I suppose how the booth computer is programed, cannot be sold at the booth, only in the vending machine.
He'll also find out how bad it really is to work for the TA!
If you are so unhappy why do you stay. Sure, transit is not perfect, no employer is perfect. I have worked for Transit for almost 3 years now ands I still enjoy my job. Sure- there are aspects that are hard or aspects I dont enjoy, but Transit is the best job in my work life.
Before Transit, I worked for the Federal Government- at about half the salary. I had to pay about $40 a month for health insurance (with no dental) and limited vision. The 401K was limited to 5% (with them matching 4%). With the federal government I had to endure yearly budget wars between Clinton and congress and we did shut down once.
With Transit an employee can retire at age 55 or when they have 25 years--no such deal weith the feds except for Law Enforcement or Air Traffic Control or some judges.
Mike: Why do you have this perceived major displeasure with your job?
I do respect your right to your opinion and to dislike your job. Grant me the privilege of liking my job.
Time to climb off my soapbox and back to my booth!
The job is only bad when you either mess up or have a bastard for a supervisor (depending on your title). Otherwise it's great. I get paid to do something that I love to do! But with four trips on the E, one to everywhere on the M (that's one round trip to Bay Parkway, Broad St, Chambers St and one shuttle) and similar jobs on other lines, I wouldn't mind loving it a little less if ya get my drift.
Two things to Mr.Subwaybuff:
1)You said: >>Time to climb off my soapbox and back to my booth!<<
Isn't that the same thing?
2)Any plans to move up?
I hope to move up at some point. Station Agent is great, but I wouldn't mind shooting for the train operator's position.
With regards to Mike's comments, the only thing we can do as employees of the system is to make the best of it. If we don't then how are we supposed to work? No one's going to pay me for doing nothing!!! I have to work for it.
Sore attitudes might suggest a change of jobs. At least that should be the case, otherwise grin and bear. I have no doubt that I might have a bad day or two, but I will just hang in there....
-Stef
Well, I have nine years total time with the TA, seven as a T/O, perfect record for the entire nine years and I still don't like it! BTW, I work one of those jobs that go everywhere on the M. It's not as bad as it looks. I would rather work one of those jobs than any job on the E!
Well, I have nine years total time with the TA, seven as a T/O, perfect record for the entire nine years and I still don't like it!
Then the question still remains - If you don't like it, why do you stay? I've got three years in, 16 months as TO. If you go, I will very happily move up the one slot. Aside from the benfits that come with the job, I've also gotten a DVD player and a five day, all-expenses paid trip to Toronto (on the clock) out of them, so I'm quite happy.
I can't go anywhere until I get the business degree. I'm slowly but surely getting toward that goal.
Fair questions and I will answer:
1- We are not allowed out of the booth-therefore I had to return to my booth :-)
2- Yes. I did have plans. I took and passed the conductor test and got as far as medical. They found two issues:
a-in 1985 I was hit by a car outside of Memphis TN and broke my ankle. I still have so much metal in the ankle that I set off some metal detetctors
Anyway- they wanted a note that I could stand on my feet for 8 hours. The doctor treating the injury is in Memphis, TN. No decent doc would write a note for a 15 year old injury that they do not know exactly what was done. I could just see it now[--"What do you mean you need sick leave to go to memphis to see a doctor"
b- I am over 50 and they did an EKG and it came back as "possible borderline abnormal" and wanted a Thalium Stress test.
Sure I could find a lawyer like the overweight train operator but I am not a confrontational person and that would leave the second issue. AT the same time I was at the clinic (MAC) there qwas another employee there for a 3rd revisit- also for EKG, also over 50. He went to a cardiologist and doc said Transit's EKG was normal. Doc did stress test- normal. Doc gave a note for full duty. Yes- Transit said no go and demanded second Cardiologist. Same results. Cardiologist # 3 said same thing.
Now my own research- stress tests are often (35-45% inconclusive-source; Harvard Medical School).
I can see their point in today's lawsuit happy society. Transit doc said I was fully qualified for my current job and there I will remain.
I did some checking and Station Supervisor is considered safety sensitive and requires a CDL. Since I'd be starting as a mobile was supervisor I'd have to drive the truck (or be able to) and that brings it back to the bogus EKG issue.
Yes- Train Operator, Dispatcher (Assistant Dispatcher), Tower are also safety sensitive.
Station Agent is not bad- I'll get better and better jobs each pick. I'll be a contented Station Agent, working lunches and riding my trains all night and away from work play computer train operator and dispatcher.
No, I am not bitter. I still love my job and I love Transit. My only regret was having been forced by my parents to leave NYC in 1966 for "torture" in Mempbhis,Tn for almost 30 years. I returned to "God's COuntry" in 1994 and will never leave again!
I hope this answers your question.
Stef- go for it! I hope to see you as a future President of NYCT! Then I can say -"I know him. I encouraged him to take the station agent job."
ps- Even the 18 year old whiz kid can drop dead from a heart attack. College athletes have dropped from heart attacks and doc said they were normal! Even though- I still love my job. Long live Transit.
Some people want to rain on our parades. I WON'T LET THEM.
-Stef
By the way, don't you think that things are really bad when you're unemployed? Someone has to be thankful, for at least having employment.
-Stef
It is almost universal to dislike your job, no matter what it is. To hate your job is the American way. I mean who really loves having to get up and go to work every day.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm almost 48 years old. I have 21 years with the TA. And I can't retire at 55. At that time, I'll still have at least one child to support and a mortgage to pay. Who is going to hire a 55 year old with no skills to offer? I started working part time when I was 16. I went full time for Chemical Bank when I was 20. Now that sucked. Dress nicely, make no money and treat people in accordance of how much money was in their accounts. No matter who one works for, its a job. And working sucks. If I didn't have to work another day for the rest of my life, I think I can handle it! Eventhough the motormans job will get boring eventually, you just deal with it. The same "scenery" on the E for 4 trips a day, 20 per week gets boring after awhile. Time for something else next pick, definitely off the Queens IND. Some of you know that I've been involved in some TA nonsense/beauracracy recently. But at least in the TA, you don't have to worry about the dreaded pink slip! And that's the bottom line.....
Uh, Bill Gates....;-)
BMTman
I spent twelve years freelancing as a scenic carpenter and theatrical electrician and loved my job(s). A lot of interesting people (Helen Hayes, Tony Randall, Sarah Jessica Parker, Aidan Quinn, just to drop some names), never the same day twice and a wonderful selection of single women (this, of course, before I got married - to one of the wardrobe staff at my particular favorite theatre).
Yes, but my point is, if people didn't have to work then they wouldn't. I like my job too but I still hate having to go to it everyday.
Peace,
ANDEE
I hope Tony didn't start going "Hmaaaah! Hmaaah!!" around any sawdust.:-)
I can add to subbuff, my Father worked for the Feds, I remember budget time and when Congress did not pass a temporary spending bill. Dad and his co-workers would be off to Unemployment line (just to make a point of filing since they wouldn't get benfits for a few weeks). His Manager one year actualy went there to call them back to work one year.
Heh. I was climbing the walls after 6 weeks ... after 6 months I decided to go back into radio ... then again, this was the early 70's and the ta was a mess at the time. And a Bronx boy reporting to Stillwell? Well ... you know how it is if you're not from Coney if you work there. And from Da Bronix?
Always got a kick out of the Brooklyn/Bronx "rivalry" ... I mean, what was THAT about? Had we ever gotten together, we coulda kicked Manhattan ARSE ... oh ... maybe that was why. It's a conspiracy Man!
With all due respect, you should be welcoming new employees into the system and give words of encouragement. No doubt that there are flaws in the system, bad things do happen. If you are miserable, should a change of jobs be in the works? Otherwise you have to grin and bear with it, because no one is going to pay you for doing nothing.
-Stef
Stef: I want to know how long u wait to call u for Station Agent & went did u took the test?? I took a Station Agent back in Dec 1998 & i pass it. Also i know that NYCT MTA will not be hiring people for Station Agent for next couple years. BTW good luck Stef for your new job Station Agent.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I took the test in December 1998 and was on the list as #115. I was called to come in two weeks ago, and finished the paperwork, drug tests, etc, last week. I'm in class now and expect to be working on the road starting 2/16. I have not picked my hours as of yet.
As for who else the TA might call for station agent.... This may be the end of the line. It's my understanding I was the last to be called to come in and get my paperwork squared away, and this may be the last class ever, as there is talk of doing away with the title. What will happen in the long run is anyone's guess....
-Stef
So, let's see...you could be the last station agent. Does that mean when you retire you will be donated to Branford? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Probably kept in the Transit Museum. But he'll be left sitting in Coney Island yard for a decade or two before actually being put in the museum.
I hate to say it, but you might be correct.....
-Stef
HA! Anything's possible.... Does the TA auction off old Railroad Clerks, errrrrr I mean Station Agents to Museums that need them?
Cheers,
Stef
Moving in on the Dragon Lady?
??????????????
-Stef
Right, Bill! The software does prevent us from selling a fun pass. The software allows us to sell cards with money (regular, per-ride cards) OR unlimited cards. For unlimited cards we have only three choices:
** seven day unlimited, $17
**thirty day unlimited, $63
** Express Bus 30 day unlimiteds, $120
Only RFM (Reduced Fare MetroCard) customers can combine time (unlimited) and money (per-ride). Only RFM customers can have two time periods on their cards. (The second period does not start until the first is completed. If they have time and money, the money is used first unless the time has already started.)
If we try to add time to a regular unlimited or a regular money card the computer will tell us no transactions allowed.
Also a reminder to subtalkers- MVMs only give $6 in change. If a customer tries to use a $20 for a $6 card the MVM will give them a choice of cancel or getting a $20 card. Most dont read and wind up with the $20 card and then come to the booth to gripe about no change.
A new discovery on MVMs-- they will only take 17 coins or bills--that means you cannot buy a monthly card with all ones or you cannot buy a $3 card with 30 dimes.(SOURCE: Revenue employee at a station. The employee assisted a customer with the MVM -the customer tried to use too many coins. I then spoke with the employee and was given the info.)
A new discovery on MVMs-- they will only take 17 coins or bills--that means you cannot buy a monthly card with all ones or you cannot buy a $3 card with 30 dimes.(SOURCE: Revenue employee at a station. The employee assisted a customer with the MVM -the customer tried to use too many coins. I then spoke with the employee and was given the info.)
This is bull. I bought a $15 card with 20 quarters and a $10 bill.
I've bought $20 cards with all golden dollars. Sounds like another "urban legend" in the making.
Peace,
ANDEE
Perhaps bills and certain coins... it may have to do with the ability of the machine to store and refund in the event of a problem. The USPS vending machine at our office has a posted restriction of "17" on it also, but that doesn't seem to apply to dollar coins (don't know about other ones).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Welcome Sef!
I hope to see you operating a train in the near future.
Thanks. One never knows where I'll end up....
-Stef
Stef, let me be among the last to congratulate you! (It would have been sooner; I just haven't checked in a few days...)
Does this you'll be relegated to the gift shop at Branford until next pick?
Eh? Oy vey! Sure. I'll be qualified to sell trolley tickets as a qualified Station Agent!!! Here, here, I finally got a Conductor's Cap I can wear while I'm operating up there....
-Stef
You mean you won't have to borrow my fireman's cap with a TA bus operator's badge on it any more ? Sparky will be impressed !
Mr t__:^)
He sure will. I'll have to go back and do some operating time for my old friend Sparky at some point....
-Stef
That's the spirit!:-)
Congratulations and good luck to you, Stef!
--Mark
Thanks!
-Stef
That goes ditto for me, Stef! Best of luck in your new job with the MTA.
Chuck Greene
Thank You also. It's nice to have friends on SubTalk.
-Stef
If I may, let me add my belated two cents' worth. Congratulations!
Why Thank You! When are you coming up to Branford to come and play with some Subway Cars?
-Stef
And lest I forget, congrats, Stef!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank You friend. One of these days when you come up to Branford, I hope to meet you in person.
-Stef
Actually, I think we have... Members' Day 2000, you were up on the roof of a car assisting one of the other members in replacing a contact shoe, no?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just check back a few issues of the "Tripper" there is one of Stef on the roof of his favorite car "getting grounded for the rest of the day", i.e. holding onto the trolley power wire (actually he shut it off so he could paint the roof).
Mr t__:^)
How bizarre..... A consist of 4 NYCT Locomotives was spotted early this morning. 2 were electric, and 2 were diesel. The diesel pair had a rider car in between them, while the electrics were separated by a tank car. Another rider car separated both sets of locomotives. How often do you see diesels and electrics sandwhiched together in this fashion? It must have been a transfer of locomotives going to the yard.
-Stef
If you were wondering, diesels are prohibited from coupling to each other. A car (rider preferred) must separate the two units.
What the?!?! Don't tell me, let me guess ... the MU capabilities aren't quite there and they argue? I can see that they wouldn't bother if that's the case since hauls aren't all that heavy so the chances of needing to double up power probably aren't ever there but I find this one a curious phenom ... what gives with THAT rule?
I'm not sure, it doesn't strike me quite right either. I'll dig up the bulletin tomorrow at work and see if there is a valid explanation.
For those who don't know:
Bulletin= An addition to the TA rules & regulations.
I'm sure it's the result of something being terribly wrong with the locomotives in MU that isn't worth fixing. That's where you get rules like that from. The NYCTA locos are very low power units to statr with, the kind of GE "toys" that are usually seen only in factories. Then again with the tight spaces they need to run in, I'm sure they didn't have much choice.
But having a buffer between tells me that they don't want things hooked up between the locos themselves and probably for very good reason.
The locos are to heavy for the elevted tracks to be put together over them. So this is way they can't be hooked up together without something in the middle of them.
Robert
Yipe! Now picture a set of three SD-80MACs on the el. The mind boggles while the steel buckles. Hadn't thought of that. I'm used to the heavier steel work away from the city. I never did a whole lot of el duty and remember fondly work trains with pairs on them so naturally I thought control line issues ... that can be an issue with mixed consists on mainlines.
That's it!
-Stef
That's right. Isn't 4 locomotives kind of heavy on the el even with a Rider Car separating them?
-Stef
Those SL 50's probably use an ME-78-C type Electro - Pneumatic reverser (poor reputation for MU). Dude?
There was a derailment Thursday night in SBK territory. In an emergency, all rules go out the window. The bulletins allow for multiple locomotive consists without spacer cars Outside and in 38 Street Yard and SBK territory. Where exactly did you see this?
It was a light move on the IRT on the 2/5 Lines (heading south towards 149th Street), with locomotives going to an unknown location. If the locmotives travel on the el, isn't there a weight restriction if there are multiple engines involved?
-Stef
Did one of the SBK Locos derail? I saw N1 travelling solo on the IRT earlier in the week.
-Stef
There are no weight restrictions as far as loading and unloading freight. There was a flat car that was destroyed during renovation in 1997 during reconstruction of the GC Shuttle passageways adjacent to track 4. It seemed one R23 flat car could not hold one sotry of broken out concrete and its frame was compromised. No one at transit told the contractors of restrictions so I guess there are few. Only the locomotives are required to be spaced when operating in other territory, primarily to the excess weight achieved by the wheel loads too close together. As far as the incident, no SBK engines derailed, it was a work train relaying on the old Culver Shuttle trackage below 9th Avenue.
6366-70 are here on NYCT property. Someone stuck 5 cars in under my nose. They were sitting in Unionport Yard with cars 6436-40.
-Stef
I don't even know when 6436-40 arrived!!! It should have been delivered sometime during the course of this month. Don't know the exact date though. Another 5 cars that I knew nothing about.... Hehehe.......
It appears that Minneapolis will have a new commuter train around 2004. The webpage is www.northstartrain.org/
Train will run from Minneapolis to St. Cloud to the north.
I was watching the movie King Of New York tonight they had a scene where someone gets killed on the redbird R-33.My question is they had a Main Street Flushing sign on the train, while its very obvious that this train was at the Times Square shuttle train station.Why do movies always do this they always get the destinations of subways wrong!!!
Well, at least it was at the Times Square terminal, where the #7 train goes, albeit a different level, track, and tunnel from the shuttle.
thats the movie that I posted last week King of N.Y. with Christopher Walken that he kills a cop on the interior of R33#9151 it was on the 42th St Shuttle scences @ Times Square also 9150 was on this train including 9152 & 9153 some signs were sporting 7 Main Street Flushing 34 Street Penn Sta. 9152 was sporting Dyckman Street, Atlantic Ave, 7 Flushing local. Some I caught were sporting S Shuttle to. My question was that did R33 Redbirds ran on the shuttle dating back to 1989 when this film was made?
Just a footnote, 9152 and 9153 were scrapped I believe not too long ago, along with the other victims 8980 and 8981 of the Feb 1998 wreck at 239th Yard.
Most moviegoers don't know enough about the NYC subway system to notice these things, and producers take advantage of that fact. Let's face it: we transit aficionados are a minority.
Why do movies always do this they always get the destinations of subways wrong!!!
Because the TA doesn't want their subway depicted in a negative light, including short scenes that portray the system as threatening or violent, a perception that the TA has been working years to shake off.
This is why things are done inaccurately, or off-site entirely (Toronto, LA, etc).
--Mark
While on the 7X Manhattan bound at 9:45am this morning there were firetrucks around qbp and an empty N of 68's sitting in the station (Manhattan bound).
Then later around noon while I was on the Q train we had a problem with a signal before Dekalb. It was an interlocking and was set to red, T/O had to radio tower to clear the signal.
Also saw an R32 Q train, going across the MB and pulling into Queensbridge.
Also while on a Queensbound R train it stayed on the express track at 42nd. An N pulled in on the local.
They had some weird switches at Coney Island Yard this week. It is known that the B, N, R, and the Franklin Shuttle's fleet is based from Coney Island.
B R68A -> N
N R32 -> Q
N R68 -> B
Q R40 -> N
Some unecessary switching eh?
Also there were firemen in the Queensboro plaza station.
Steinway tubes were really leaking badly today.
This is somewhat off topic, but is there anybody here who lives in Southern California and is able to tape some radio stations for me from that area.?
This is somewhat off topic, but is there anybody here who lives in Southern California and is able to tape some radio stations for me from that area?
Why don't you just find one with a webcast?
My connection is too slow, I can never be able to recieve anything clearly on there. They say you can do it with a 28.8, but WMP and RAplayer just skip constantly.
For any live streaming audio or video to be functional you gotta have cable or DSL, and for me those options are financially out of reach.
:-(
Besides, many stations don't have webcasts.
For any live streaming audio or video to be functional you gotta have cable or DSL.
How do you know anyway? Do you have experience with speed tests?
I have a 56K modem, and I never have any problems with skipping, unless I'm doing something else on the internet at the same time. AM Radio's crappy quality is conducive to a low bitrate.
Why do you care that most stations don't have a webcast? Are you looking for a specific station or any station? There are plenty of stations available in a particular area which have a webcast.
Another thing.
A webcast never skips, it pauses, but it picks up exactly where it leaves off.
Hmmm, sounds like it may be my computer then. I'd like to fix the problem because there are tons of internet-only stations out there, which happen to be better than over the air ones.
Heck if I had the time and the space, I'd set up the rail music network. Great songs for railfanning, plus real announcements and subway sounds.
Perhaps I need a 56k modem then. Some stations work OK, but others are hard to get. Perhaps it isn't just speed, but my lumbering Hippo of a computer that needs to be fixed.
Also Windows Media PLayer is much better than Real Audio. Fortunately, most stations are using WMP now.
For some strange reason, I get a faster connection with Juno than my regular ISP.
Arrived at 9:52PM and headed to East 180th St, with Loco 67, RD334 (R-15), Loco 68, 6445-44-43-42-41, and Loco 899.
Doug and Mike, 6371-75 are waiting in the wings. It should be more than likely that they will come out of Linden Yard tomorrow for evening delivery. Will you guys investigate?
-Stef
I passed by Linden Shops this morning and there was nothing in the yard. I will go back later......
6471 and 6375 went left Fresh Pond for Linden Yard some time around 2:30 PM yesterday (Saturday). I wasn't able to post it at the time.
Shawn.
Ugh, make that 6371 - 6375. Typing too fast :)
Shawn.
That must have been the diesel blast that BMTman was referring to. Very interesting indeed....
-Stef
Hey, CanarsieShawn! That explains the two diesel horn-blasts I heard at 2:45 pm yesterday! I called Stef immediately after to tell him that I thought something would be heading his way later Saturday night.
My hunch was right! Even though I'm more than a mile from Linden Yards (I'm two blocks from Canarsie Park on Jamaica Bay) I was able to hear the loco's horns since the neighborhood is very quiet.
BMTman
I found a way that the FL-9 locomotives of Metro-North could be utilized. Bring them out to California where they are experiencing power shortages resulting in rolling blackouts. Hook up an FL-9 or two into the power grid in that particular area. When that specific area is blacked out start up the FL-9 locomotive to generate electricity. This way Metro-North can continue to make money with their FL-9s after they are retired from hauling passenger trains.
BMTJeff
This is the second time I've seen this. It's not without precedent (ie, not a new idea). CN (or CP?) did this last year during the Ice Storm to power an emergency shelter. They actually derailed the locomotive at a grade crossing, and drove it to the location, where it was used as a static generator. Of course, as steam locomotives were retired, many were put to use as heat and power sources for railroad shops and such.
-Hank
I think that you'll see a few more of these messages about using locomotives as power sources. They might need plenty of them in California if their power crisis continues.
BMTJeff
In MNRR monthly "brochure" it said that Metro North gave one to some Children Hospital, with all the parts taken out, and repainted. They might use it as a restaurant.
Hey, stop stealing my ideas! I already proposed this, but instead of using FL-9's with their puny 1800hp they should use the hundreds of older GE units many weastern RR's are casting off like C30-7's, C32-8's and C36-7's. Heck, at Altoona there are like 50 GE cabless Boosters sitting stored for some reason. Send 'em west and put them to use. Several people pointed out that you can't plug them into the grid, but they could serve as standby power supplies for factories or office complexes. I heard that farmers were having to dump milk because the cheese plants were shutting down. Miller beer layed off workers and shipped it in from Texas. Sun micro-systems sat dark and useless. If a locomotive was sitting standby manned by one of those workers recently laid off from NS or CSX the power interuption wouldn't last more than a minute or 2.
Jersey Mike:
I like your idea for sending the cabless booster locomotives out to California to supply power instead of having them sit in the shops. This way the old equipment could be put to good use in the meantime. BTW Sun microsystems produces one of the web browsers that I use which is Netscape.
BMTJeff
Netscape is owned by AOL, not Sun. They used to be a private corporation.
-Hank
I think that Netscape was started by Sun Microsystems.
BMTJeff
I'm not sure of the history, but all existing browsers can trace their beginnings to NCSA Mosaic, which was developed by a governemnt agency. The only thing Sun has to do with browsers is JAVA.
-Hank
NCSA Mosaic was a project that one Marc Andreesen, founder of Netscape was hired on to develop. He filed a subset of his code with NCSA which became "Mosaic, version 0.99B" ... he took the optimized code he had done under government contract and kept it for himself. Marc Andreesen later formed Netscape Corporation with Jim Clarke and using his original code, funded with taxpayer dollars, which became Netscape 0.99B and all that followed. Just goes to show you that in republican times, you can rip off the government and walk away rich with no concerns whatsoever about being prosecuted.
Just goes to show you that in republican times, you can rip off the government and walk away rich with no concerns whatsoever about being prosecuted.
1993 was a Republican time?
The contract was in the early 1990's, Shrub's DAD was in at the time for what it's worth. Since executive is responsible for the handouts, I guess so. Netscape CORP was founded AFTER Andreesen left the NCSA where if I remember correctly, he had been an intern or some such. But it was that federally-funded project that had been ripped off to create the original Netscape ...
But EVERY browser, including Opera, IE, and any other graphical web browser you can think of was based on that code. It wasn't a government ripoff as much as it was a development grant.
-Hank
Hank:
I happen to have 3 web browsers on my computer. They are Netscape, IE and Opera. I think that IE is the most popular if I'm not mistaken.
BMTJeff
IE is most popular by default; it comes with every PC that has Windows installed. If Windows weren't integrated into the GUI, then Netscape would have a chance on computers other than Macs.
-Hank
I'm sure that that affects new computer users, but I'm sure that a lot of users who aren't blinded by anti-Microsoft bias switched over.
IE4 was a better browser than Netscape 4, but Outlook Express was MUCH better than the Netscape Messenger. When MS released IE5, Netscape didn't release an executable 5.0 version. Now, here comes Netscape 6, and it is PURE CRAP. I installed it, hated it and went back to NS4.7 as my secondary browser.
Pork:
I agree with you on Netscape 6. Although I have never used it I read the reviews on it and they were terrible. I happen to be using Netscape 4.76 as my primary browser. I don't often use IE 5.5 which is my second web browser and I also have a third browser which is Ppera 5.02.
BMTJeff
Pork:
I agree with you on Netscape 6. Although I have never used it I read the reviews on it and they were terrible. I happen to be using Netscape 4.76 as my primary browser. I don't often use IE 5.5 which is my second web browser and I also have a third browser which is Opera 5.02.
BMTJeff
Hank:
You're prorbably right that if IE wasn't integrated onto the graphical user interface of every PC I think that Netscape would have a better chance than it does at the present time. Unfortunnately the latest version of Netscape which is called Netscape 6 did not get very good reviews even in the second release. Go to http://www.zdnet.com/products/stories/ratings/0,11246,366107,00.html
for more information about Netscape 6.
BMTJeff
Yeah, but Opera is the best. I love it
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually not ... most of the earlier versions of IE spell it out, but the NCSA Mosaic code was granted to a company called SPYGLASS after Andreesen ripped them off. There's historicals on all this out there if anyone cares to dig it up. But it was Spyglass that assumed control and husbandry of the code from the National Center for Supercomputing Applications at the University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaigne and granted to Microsoft, Opera and the others under this license authority. Note the absence of same in Netscape.
And in case anyone cares, I'm a loyal Netscape user, this ain't Microsquat propaganda ... I just happen to have been around the industry at the time and watched it all unfold, including the lawsuits.
"I found a way that the FL-9 locomotives of Metro-North could be utilized. Bring them out to California where they are experiencing power shortages resulting in rolling blackouts."
BAD IDEA !..........All those diesel engines revving to generate power will create a problem when solving one, DIESEL EXHAUST!
All those left coast global warming critics would have a hissy fit. Perhaps methane fueled gas generators using B--L S--T from 8 years of Clinto-Gore !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Be sure to look through your Sunday Newspaper advertisements tomorrow! [We get ours a day early...our paperboy is smart!] The folks at the Danbury Mint are offering a unique display commemrating the Subway Series- models of both the Yankee AND Mets Subway Series cars!!!Yes, scale models of the Yankee R-62, and the Mets Redbird;nose to nose on track with a short piece of station platform with a short overhang roof. It,of course,is rather pricy: a $36 deposit, plus payments totaling $99....BUT the artists rendering looks real good [it actually wont be struck until spring..].And, no, I dont know what scale they used, but the ad says its about a foot in length...And,of course, is going be made in a limited edition. I am SUPER tempted!
This "commemorative" piece has been offered before. It does look to be well made.
As for the real "Subway Series" train - R-142 cars 6310 to 6320 - I saw it go by last night, and most of the "wrapping" is now gone. The two ends of the train - one end of car 6315 and one of 6320 - still have the pinstripes, but the bodies of those cars don't. The "Subway Series 2000" banners reamin on one or perhaps two of the other cars.
We get ours a day early...our paperboy is smart!
Big deal. The New York Times sends out all of its ads, Real Estate, Travel, Help Wanted, Television and the Magazine on Saturday to all of its subscribers, even if they don't receive the Saturday paper (Sunday only subscribers).
Been there, done that & got my confirmation post card ... can't wait.
Mr t__:^)
Too bad they won't run that offer in Denver. :-(
I may have to ask my sister to keep an eye out for it.
My sister ordered it for me for Chanukkah, it'll arrive in May. Payments for December orders totaled $89.
-Hank
Service to resume after a couple weeks of testing. Story in Star-Ledger.
Today Pittsburg scored $100 million in federal funding to help re-open the 5.5 mile Overbrook line to Castle Shannon, closed in 1993. The money goes into Stage II of a $386 million plan to rehab the Pittsburg light rail system. Part of the new federal money will go to buy 28 new LRV's. They plan to increase ridership from 14,000 to 40,000 and get 6,500 cars out of the congested Liberty tunnels. The federal grant was one of 12 slated in 2001 and was made possibly through a 1996 congrssional bill.
That's great news, Mike! When I was there for a fan trip several years ago, we covered the 42S, & 42L with a Seimens-Duwag and at South Hills Village our operator, Mike Cooke, brought out a PCC for trip on the 47D. He mentioned that with funding that the Overbrook line could be rebuilt and now it wiil be. A complete overhaul of the line and all it's weakened bridges will be done to support the weight of the new cars.
I'd like to go out there and ride that thing when it's done!
Chuck Greene
Where's Pittsburg? You mean that city in California that's
the terminus of one of the BART branches?
Pittsburgh, not Pittsburg (Cal.)
Chuck Greene
Precisely!
The one which proclaimed itself the City of Champions when the Pirates and Steelers won championships in their respective sports in 1979.
This may be astupid question, but I was wondering if you are the weatherman "Mr. Gee" from the WB11 News. -Nick
I doubt it. I know the "real" Mr. G (Irv Gikofsky) and as far as I know, he's not a rail fan. However, my colleague Craig Allen at WCBS is... as are Tom Kaminski (traffic reporter) and Wayne Cabot (news anchor).
Interesting, Todd...I didn't know there were so many railfans at WCBS! Are some more into subways while others are into other rail transit? It would be great if they could come on subtalk. -Nick
Tom's a subway fan (he has a map of the London system on his office door). Wayne's more into long-range stuff (he has a freight line near his house in western NJ). I've told them of SubTalk, but I don't think they've had the time to visit us.
Are you Nick Gregory?
I know our Nick; we've met in Boston a number of times. And he's not Nick Gregory! (Whom I also know... and he's NOT a rail fan. But he is a pilot.)
LOL, Clark...no I'm not...but it was a good question. As Todd said, I am a student in Boston. I grew up in CT, and have been visitng relatives in NYC since I was four years old. Ahh, the memories of the R-15, and the R-62 on the #7 for testing & I think redbird rehab! Besides, I hope not to work for Fox if I can help it. But at least channel 5 finally got rid of that nosebleed John Rowland. -Nick
Fox is COOL. They have absolutely no decency and respect for common traditional values.
They also own the Family Channel and their News channel (and the NY Post) has a conservative slant. Strange isn't it? Of course, both parties are into that whole communications decency thing, that seems to be, sadly, the only thing they can agree on.
But at least channel 5 finally got rid of that nosebleed John Rowland.
That "nosebleed" John Rowland is STILL working on Fox5 NY working the weeknight 10:00 o'clock news!
Greetings,
While I have read the FAQ and followed the messages in this group for some time, I have been unable to get a number of questions answered. As a Civil Engineer, I am particularly fascinated by New York’s subway, and most of these questions are in regards to engineering and construction. I hope that these questions are outside the realm of what is normally asked. If they are not, then I apologize in advance. If they are, here is a chance for all you experts to truly show off.
The Second Avenue Subway: (and NOT when it will ever be built)
1) To what stage of completion were the tunnel stages built north of East 99th Street? According to the Manhattan East Side Access document on the MTA’s site (and the FAQ), tunnel segments were completed. Was any lightning installed? How about sump pumps for drainage?
2) What access is provided to the segments, if any? I would imagine that there are some forms of manholes or access hatches. Driving down Second Avenue, I saw on the West side of the street in the low 100's what appear to be plated over subway air vents. I have never had the opportunity to walk the site and investigate in person.
3) Were any photographs ever made available of the completed tunnel segments?
The PATH and 6th Avenue: (6 tracks on 6th avenue?)
1) The 6th Avenue express, 6th Avenue local, and PATH all run up 6th Avenue. From the available track maps on the home page, I have not been able to understand what a cross-section of the tunnels on 6th Avenue would look like. For instance, at 14th Street, the local tracks are opposite walled off track, but are these the PATH tracks? Or are they the 6th Ave express tracks? Do the 6th Ave express tracks run below the PATH tracks? Do the 6th Ave express tracks run at a lower elevation than the 14th Street L platform.
2) Also on 6th Avenue, are there any structural connections between the PATH and subway (not track of course, but emergency exits, access ways, and so on...)?
2) What are the differences mechanically between the PATH and Subway A and B divisions? I am referring to voltage, clearance, platform height, etc...
Extending the Crosstown IRT: (pipe, nay, tunnel dream)
1) Okay, I admit that this has been discussed a while ago, and I would like to add that the lower level on the 8th Avenue line could serve as a staging area for construction rather than an obstacle to extending it, assuming the City is willing to relinquish it. My question is: how far do the tail tracks extend west of the 42nd street platform? They obviously don't go very far, but they do extend some ways it appears, and I can't tell from the platform edge. Are they just long enough (600/660 ft for 7 train???) to hold one train?
2) There's been talk of extending the 7 to the Javits, but what about a West Side stadium? Any talk of bringing the subway to it?
Hey, welcome to the board. I'm a Civil Engineering major and I hope to get my BS in 2.5 years. I hope you can provide some civil engineering insight in the future.
2) What access is provided to the segments, if any? I would imagine that there are some forms of manholes or access hatches. Driving down Second Avenue, I saw on the West side of the street in the low 100's what appear to be plated over subway air vents. I have never had the opportunity to walk the site and investigate in person.
You've probably already read this, but it says there is a ventalation structure in Chinatown.
1) The 6th Avenue express, 6th Avenue local, and PATH all run up 6th Avenue. From the available track maps on the home page, I have not been able to understand what a cross-section of the tunnels on 6th Avenue would look like. For instance, at 14th Street, the local tracks are opposite walled off track, but are these the PATH tracks? Or are they the 6th Ave express tracks? Do the 6th Ave express tracks run below the PATH tracks? Do the 6th Ave express tracks run at a lower elevation than the 14th Street L platform.
I know that PATH runs between the local tracks and that the express tracks are at a lower level. According to the track maps, it appears that the express tracks run underneath the L
2) What are the differences mechanically between the PATH and Subway A and B divisions? I am referring to voltage, clearance, platform height, etc...
THe only thing I know is that PATH has the same tunnel clearances as the IRT.
THe only thing I know is that PATH has the same tunnel clearances as the IRT.
Not everything you know is true.
I've read that PATH equipment will fit on IRT lines but not the other way around. Supposedly, the the PATH tunnels are a little narrower at the height of the car tops. I guess that explains why the IRT car sides are plumb but the PATH car sides tilt in slightly.
IIRC what I have read, the voltages are both 600VDC and the platform heights are the same; but it has been a while since I read my source on these points.
On the subject of the subsurface cross-section under 6th Avenue, perhaps the most important thing to remember is that the PATH(ne H&M) was built first, then the IND local tracks, and lastly the IND express.
Regarding the tilted sides of the PATH PA-series cars, this is actually a tilt out in the center - the prior cars had straight sides. When the first PA cars were delivered, the PA had to chip out a number of protruding pieces in the tunnels in order to deal with the new car shape. (Previously they had run a mockup through the tunnels to find the interference points, which were all on the cable ducting and not the actual tunnel walls).
BTW, either the newest PA-4 cars are a little wider, they sway more, or the clearances are still tight - westbound from Grove Street, after crossing over from H to G west of the station, I was in car 813 at the rear of the consist when it had a minor scrape against the bench a month or so ago.
To what stage of completion were the tunnel stages built north of East 99th Street?
I'm not exactly sure how complete they are, but... they have been used as overflow records storage for the City of New York for the last twenty years or so. I recently heard that they are now clearing out those records and disposing of them, in preparation for the upcoming "study" of the line. I would assume, therefore, that there is at least one major access point into each of the two tunnel sections.
Access to the section in Chinatown is via an emergency exit stairway. The Transit Museum was able to arrange for tours there at one time (no longer); Mark Feinman offers a video entitled "You Can't Get There From Here" which includes footage shot in that tunnel segment.
The PATH and 6th Avenue: (6 tracks on 6th avenue?)
The PATH tracks are between the local tracks on sixth avenue. The express tracks are deep-bore, under the PATH tracks. I've heard that there is at least one connection between the PATH and IRT (an emergency exit passageway from the H&M to the IRT) but I'm not sure where it is. There are also underground connections between a couple of the stations, outside of fare control of course.
The differences between PATH and IRT equipment are pretty well documented elsewhere on this site... keep reading!
Extending the Crosstown IRT
The tail tracks are about 700' long, IIRC. If you're standing on the end of the platform and a redbird comes in with its headlights on, you can see the glimmer of the bumping block at the end of the tunnel. Interestingly enough, I've never managed to make it out from inside the train, at the railfan window. And yes, there's been a lot of discussion about bringing the 7 through to serve not only Javits but a West Side Stadium and more - but it's all just talk at this time. IMHO we'll see the Stubway before we'll see the 7 extended.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
To what stage of completion were the tunnel stages built north of East 99th Street?
I'm not exactly sure how complete they are, but... they have been used as overflow records storage for the City of New York for the last twenty years or so. I recently heard that they are now clearing out those records and disposing of them, in preparation for the upcoming "study" of the line. I would assume, therefore, that there is at least one major access point into each of the two tunnel sections.
Access to the section in Chinatown is via an emergency exit stairway.
There originally was a fourth section, around 9th Street, but it was filled in some years ago.
Right. There is some debate about how far along that one got... maybe not beyond the utility relocation stage (no concrete poured), which is why it was filled in.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And don't forget the rumor of the "fifth section," part of which has been in service between Houston Street and Canal Street.
The Daily News published an article about the completed sections a while back with several pictures. One version of the paper had a picture of people standing in the tunnel on the entire front page, the other had the same picture in a little corner in the top part of the front page. I can't find it right now, so I can't tell you the date. Search the DN web site for it, you'll get the date and text of the article. Go to the library and check the Daily News with that date for pictures.
Path, Subway A+B are all 600 Volts DC. Lirr is 750 and MNRR is 700. The third rail is a bit farther away in B division than A division.
1) The 6th Ave IND local tracks are outside the PATH tracks; the IND express is below. The actual spacing between the PATH and the IND varies; compare the IND platform at 23rd to the one at 14th.
2) There are some locked doorways at each end of the relevant PATH stations which may lead to matching ones in the IND - at the least, there are ventilation ducts between them as you can feel airflow at odd times. I'm not exactly sure what the situation is at the closed 19th St. PATH station - I'm told there's an opening in the wall to the IND tracks there.
3) A PATH car could operate on the IRT with the exception that the trip arm is on the other side. While dimensionally similar to the PATH cars, IRT cars would have problems in the PATH due to tight-radius curves as well as the PATH trackbed being much closer to the invert at points (Morton St. curve) so IRT under-car equipment would likely snag.
The IND local tracks dip between 23 St and 14 St, with the low point at about 19th St. It may have been to allow clearance for passageways to the now abandoned Path station at 19th St. Also the IND and Path platforms are staggered at 14 St; at 23 St they are side by side. The IND outside platform walls at 23 St go almost up to the building line; at 14 St they have more clearance. Another engineering marvel is the way the Path tracks "snake" between the 6th Ave and 8th Ave tracks just north of W 4 St, where the Path tracks turn down Christopher St. The IND subway, which of couse came later, had to be built around Path, and to make things even more difficult, the old 6th Avenue el had to be propped up during all this construction.
If, as rumored, each major cross-town block is 1/5 mile long (1056 feet) and the west end of the #7 platform at Times Square is somewhat west of 7th Avenue, the end of the tail tracks must be nearly at 8th Avenue.
A point of information about the Second Ave. subway tunnel which was built north of 96th street on the east side of Manhattan - sometime during the mid 80's a man fell into the tunnel while trying to retrieve a ring that he accidentally dropped, and he almost drowned in the water that collected in the tunnel. He was brought to Metropolitan Hospital's emergency department and kept in the hospital for a couple of days. I remember when he was brought in. I wonder if some kind of drainage system was installed after that incident.
The unfinished portions of the 2nd ave subway are cut and cover, or are they bored?
The section in Chinatown is cut and cover; I think the other sections are as well, but since I've not been there...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since they've never seen a train, I'm sure they're very bored by now.
Rim shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Cut and cover.
Hi all,
I am interested in acquiring a decommissed subway car for conversion to living space. Does the MTA ever sell or auction the cars? How about other transit authorities?
Thanks for your time.
Joe
Various transit agencies offer decomissioned cars for sale from time to time, either at auction or through equipment brokerage firms. Obtaining one, while not cheap, isn't impossible; finding a place where you could use it as living space might be. (I speak from experience - back in 1982 I attempted to place two ex-PFE refrigerator cars on my property in rural North Carolina for use as storage space and ran afoul of the County CommissarsCommissioners.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mouse, You got the spelling right the first time.
The TA occasionally sells off old equipment, but when it does there is no big 'advertisement' for it.
Your best bet is to go to the NYCT website and visit their 'procurment' page where items for sale will be posted. You might also contact the NYCT Car Equipment Division to inquire about the forthcoming retirement of the IRT Redbird fleet. I doubt any of them will be up for outright 'sale', but asking won't hurt (most if not all of these cars are to be turned into artifical reefs off the coast of Long Island and New Jersey -- news reports have covered this subject, as well as previous posts here at SubTalk).
BTW, if you are to purchase an old subway car, be aware that it is up to the buyer to pay the costs of getting the equipment off of NYCT property -- usually by flatbed trailer -- which in itself might be more costly than the actual purchase price of the car!
In any event, Good Luck!
BMTman
Many of us were jumping with joy when George W was inaugurated as 43rd President today. A Republican back in the White House, music to the ears of this Goper, but the joy was somewhat tempered by the knowledge that New York carpetbagged once again by sending hilarious Hillary to the US Senate. One thing for sure, though. I don't think either one is going to be a big fan of rapid transit in New York or elsewhere. Now I'll admit that I can;t see Dubya riding the subway, but you Demos out there, can you really envision the hilarious one riding on one? Anyone answering yes to that one can try out for the role of Pinocchio.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
Let's hope that George W. Bush doesn't have too many if any ideas like Ronald Reagan had with cutting funding for everything but for defense. He doesn't appear to be for Anti-big government like Reagan was. I think that we are still paying for what Ronald Reagan did to this day except that we no longer have a huge budget deficit. Whether or not he'll be a fan of public transit remains yet to be seen. I don't think he'll do too much damage to public transit if any and I don't expect him to do the damage Ronald Reagan did. Although many people think that he isn't too bright we have to give him a chance. One thing that will always be in the back of his mind is that he won the election with the electoral vote, not the popular vote. If history suggests anything he is liable to only last for one term. Could he win in 2004? It remains yet to be seen.
BMTJeff
If W. brings the Republican party back toward the center then he has a real shot at reelection. Remember, his father had to govern far to the right of his personal philosophy because he followed Reagan the destroyer. Interestingly Daddy's wife, Barbara, always struck me as a class act. So, while I will watch W. closely and will criticize him profusely if he screws up, W. has a real chance to take the Republican party back from the screwballs who have dominated it for the last generation and provide a real alternative to the PC pablum of the left.
"If W. brings the Republican party back toward the center then he has a real shot at reelection."
This is very true. I know right now W does not seem to be the brightest, but do know that part of his screw-ups come from him being dyslexic. So far it seems like he is committed to working with Democrats, and hopefully Democrats will work with him too; for its partly a two-way streak. But I do think Bush can be the Compassionate Consevative that he has promised to be to the American People. -Nick
>>>W. has a real chance to take the Republican party back from the screwballs who have dominated it for the last generationand provide a real alternative to the PC pablum of the left<<<
No W. won't if he intends to go with John Ashcroft as his A.G. After hearing what Ashcroft ideas and motives are about, I would vote for the dead guy too.
Yes, I agree there, The Demo. goalies can't let W. win this one or school vouchers. School vouchers will wreck public education.
>>School vouchers will
wreck public education.
<<
no duh. BUT did anyone think otherwise? It is just another facet of the social "secession" of GOP & some centrist Demo's. The "why should I pay for them?" (aka "let them eat cake") crap which is why public transit in this country is so bad. Just remember, after all the anti-government rhetoric, the cold numbers are that the Bush majority economically unproductive states are using the Congress to siphon huge sums out of the pruductive Gore states. Soutce--Moynihan commissioned study of IRS intake vs. Fed expenditure by states.
School vouchers will wreck public education.
How can you wreck something that's already wrecked?
You can make it worse than it already is! Make the class sizes even bigger. Scare out all but the very, very worst teachers.
I don't buy the school vouchers concept at all. Besides the blatant disregard of speration between church and state by letting taxpayer money go to religious schools, there is the ridiculous idea that you can save public schools by destroying them.
Honestly, taking money away from public schools can't possibly help them. It's just a bad, bad excuse for cutting aid.
Hail To the Thief.
Andrew
I don't buy the school vouchers concept at all. Besides the blatant disregard of speration between church and state by letting taxpayer money go to religious schools, there is the ridiculous idea that you can save public schools by destroying them.
Why save them? ELIMINATE them. Everybody can get vouchers, and the innovation and competition of the private sector will be brought to schools.
I would go one further. Force people to pay for their own education, only the poor would get vouchers, since the middle class and wealthy are already paying for those vouchers in taxes. Cut the middleman out.
Mr. K: You just struck out. Get this straight. George W. did not steal the election. He won in the constitutionally ordained electoral college. Remember this, the Florida Supreme Court violated its own state law when it ruled unanimously to have a recount, even though, the law stated flatly that all totals must be tabulated in seven days. When the US Supreme Court told the FSC to look over their own laws and get it straight, three of the judges complied, but four of them ignored the USSC's warning. So the Supreme Court stepped in and did what was constitutionally legal. Remember also that Florida SC's Chief Justice complied with the USSC and told his colleagues to heed what the US Court was saying, but four decided to defy the highest judicial body in the land. George W. is the President. Get used to it because if I am right you're going to have to live with him not for four years but eight.
Aw BS ... he DIDN'T win ... Daddy's judges overruled the realities. That whole pile of nonsense in the decision about "the deadline" was so much nonsense. The counting COULD have easily gone past the 12th and in the past, we've had presidents elected by the electors in MARCH. We all could have waited for a clearer outcome.
Shrub LOST the election by nearly a half million votes. He WON the Supreme Court 5 to 4. He has no mandate and he is not MY President. We had to listen to the republican conspiracy whinings for eight years. Now the table's reversed. Get used to it. Sorry for my tone, but your post sounds like so much Rush Gasbag and that just gets my Irish up. I otherwise retain great respect for you on the basis of your other posts here but have no respect for a little shrub who thinks he was born to lead and DID steal the election by deliberately running out the clock.
What we had here was a typical Chilean election:
1. Imagine that we read of an election occuring anywhere in the third world in which the self-declared winner was the son of the former prime minister and that former prime minister was himself the former head of that nation's secret police (cia).
2. Imagine that the self-declared winner lost the popular vote but won based on some old colonial holdover (electoral college) from the nation's pre-democracy past.
3. Imagine that the self-declared winner's 'victory' turned on disputed votes cast in a province governed by his brother!
4. Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district, a district heavily favoring the self-declared winner's opponent, led thousands of voters to vote for the wrong candidate.
5. Imagine that that members of that nation's most despised caste, fearing for their lives/livelihoods, turned out in record numbers to vote in near-universal opposition to the self-declared winner's candidacy.
6. Imagine that hundreds of members of that most-despised caste were intercepted on their way to the polls by state police operating under the authority of the self-declared winner's brother.
7. Imagine that six million people voted in the disputed province and that the self-declared winner's 'lead' was only 327 votes. Fewer, certainly, than the vote counting machines' margin of error.
8. Imagine that the self-declared winner and his political party opposed a more careful by-hand inspection and re-counting of the ballots in the disputed province or in its most hotly disputed district.
9. Imagine that the self-declared winner, himself a governor of a major province, had the worst human rights record of any province in his nation and actually led the nation in executions.
10. Imagine that a major campaign promise of the self-declared winner was to appoint like-minded human rights violators to lifetime positions on the high court of that nation.
None of us would deem such an election to be representative of anything other than the self-declared winner's will-to-power. All of us, I imagine, would wearily turn the page thinking that it was another sad tale of pitiful pre- or anti-democracy peoples in some strange elsewhere."
Ahh, Michael Moore's little screed about the 2000 election. I had to cover part of a trial back in 1996 involving him and Columbia-Tri Star, producers of his "TV Nation" show, against Merco Joint Ventures, which was the company the Dinkins administration gave the contract to dispose of New York City sludge in Texas east of El Paso.
When Michael was asked about possible inaccuracies in the report, he came up with this spiel about "relative truths" -- i.e. since Merco was a bunch of weasels speading toxic sludge on Texas (under both Gov. Ann Richards then Bush)it was OK to lie about them in the report. Moore and Columbia lost the defamation suit, but received only a small fine, because the Merco people are a little shady, but it gave me the idea that Michael defines the truth as whatever serves his needs at the time.
That said, I did think "Roger and Me" was pretty funny.
I'm afraid I have to agree. There's something very, very suspicious about his "win" in Florida--essentially accomplished by FORCING a run-out of the clock by an establishment that is wholly controlled by the campaign of the self-declared winner. That is not allright. That is not legitimate. As far as I'm concerned, Bush is not the president. And nothing he ever does in these four years is legitimate. I will NOT accept a hostile takeover of my country.
Andrew
Hostile my ass. Does it bother you that messrs Brokjaw, Blather, and Lemmings called Florida for Gore prematurely and kept over 200,000 voters from the Republican leaning Panhandle from going to the polls because they thought it would be futile. Since Bush carried that area overwhelmingly for those that voted, it stands to reason he would have done that well if those that did not vote voted. If that had happened Bush would have won the state by over 100,000 votes. But that doesn't bother you a bit, does it?
If that had happened Bush would have won the state by over 100,000 votes. But that doesn't bother you a bit, does it?
No it doesn't. As long as it doesn't bother you that tactics of intimidation were used to block many African-Americans* from voting, faulty and illegal ballots caused many people to register their vote for Buchanan instead of Gore, and faulty machines caused millions of votes to go uncounted through no fault of the voter.
*Afrikaaners and Egyptians
Yes it bothers me. Those ballots were approved by a Democratic office holder and were modeled after the ballots in Chicago, not exactly a Republican city.
Does it bother you that messrs Brokjaw, Blather, and Lemmings called Florida for Gore prematurely and kept over 200,000 voters from the Republican leaning Panhandle from going to the polls because they thought it would be futile. Since Bush carried that area overwhelmingly for those that voted, it stands to reason he would have done that well if those that did not vote voted. If that had happened Bush would have won the state by over 100,000 votes.
Hmmmmm. I just don't see how the numbers add up. According to the most recent Census estimates, there are about 865,000 people in Florida's Central Time counties. Let's assume - very generously - that two-thirds of them are registered voters, two-thirds of whom planned to vote in the election. That means somewhat under 400,000 votes would have been cast in that region. Your 200,000 "kept away" proposition has to assume that half of the people who would have voted would have done so in the last hour that the polls were open. Pretty dubious, I'd say. Of course, it would have taken a much smaller number of discouraged voters to make a difference.
I doubt the difference would have been more than a thousand votes at best, though you're right that in this case, that still would have made a difference.
As for the machine problems, having voted for many years on those Votematic machines, I can tell you it takes a really, really, really incompetent voting effort to screw the things up in the voting process -- the errors would be more likely due to the still hanging chads during the tally.
The punchcards can only be inserted into the slot one way because of the posthole set-up at the top of the ballot -- try to put it in backwards and the card missed the slot hole. If you put the card over the slot instead of in it, you can't turn the pages on the ballot to get to the downballot races, and any build-up of chads in the bottom bin would have slid towards the bottom, since the ballots are set at about a 30-degree angle to the ground, so if a chad buildup had blocked any slots, they would have been the bottom ones on each page. And as for the arrows pointing to thew candidates, they're not that hard to figure out, or they wouldn't have been in use in other places like Chicago for all these years.
I would prefer the government fund a program to standardize all the election equipment in the United States, preferably the optical scanner-type machines similar to the ones they use to scan Lotto cards, and hopefully that will be in place by 2004.
You're supposed to learn from your mistakes, just like NASA did with the O-ring problem after the Challenger explosion. Christ McAuliffe is dead, George W. Bush in the president -- a lot of people don't like either result, but all you can do is make sure the same situations that led up to the problems don't happen again (though I still have a lot of dobuts about the reports that African Americans were intimidated from voting -- maybe Jesse Jackson can produce some hard evidence now that he's back from paternity leave).
Maybe it was an indiscretion to call Florida before all the votes were in. But that is the nature of the press. They grab a story as soon as they think they have it, then correct it later if they have to. In no way did it actually force people from voting.
The machine undervotes, now that's a different story.
Andrew
Sure it did. It discouraged them from voting because they felt their vote wouldn't make a difference. The networks called Florida when Gore was leading by only two percent. But they called it "too close to "when Bush was leading by 12% in Georgia, 9% in Kentucky, 11% in North Carolina, and 7% in Ohio. What kind of bullshit was that? That's why we Republicans are reveling in Bush being in the White House. The media did everything possible to throw a monkey wrench into his effort.
The media has been doing that since Nixon ran in 72, and people on the West Coast did not get out to vote because of it.
(School vouchers will wreck public education.
How can you wreck something that's already wrecked?)
I think we need to get rid of Medicare and Medicaid, which ARE voucher systems, and force the elderly to go to the public hospitals, clinics and nursing homes they are zoned for, with no choice. And, I think that all those tuition assistance plans and tax-favored savings plans for the affluent to send their kids to college should be limited to public colleges one is zoned for.
Just kidding. The reality is, anyone who doesn't have a choice gets screwed. We have an off the books vouchers system now. The affluent in effect exercise a voucher by choosing their neighborhood based on the schools (the can afford affluent suburbs), or using their savvy to get into special deal magenet schools, or using their money to send their kids to private schools. Every anti-voucher liberal I know has exercised one of those options. Every PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER I know has exercised one of those options. Meanwhile, those in less affluent jurisdictions, with less money, with no options, are screwed.
Anti-voucher folks are in favor of choices for themselves, but not for others. Let's see how they resolve this school aid thing to give a special deal to the yuppies without providing even a pro-rate share to NYC's poor children.
Seriously, Bush's voucher plan has an anual maximum of $1500 per child a year. That would NEVER pay for a decent private school. This program would effectively KILL education for the poor while giving the rich a tax break.
Take it from someone who has been to private school. Many cannot or will not provide the liberal education that we NEED public schools for. My school hated that I had liberal views on things, and worked to indoctrinate me with their right wing religious (in this case, Conservative Jewish) propoganda. As far as they were concerned, I was wrong, and I had to learn my lesson. It was horrible!
If private schools are the only schools left, then for the most part that is what we'll get: indoctrination. Granted that happens in public schools too, but not on the same level. At least they are answerable to taxpayers. And if we start RESPONSIBLY funding them instead of demanding tax breaks, then they can start to make a comeback.
Andrew
Well I went to private Quaker schools and while they never tried to indoctrinate, I was subjected to an atmosphere of liberalism, diversity and open mindedness. So have hope, there are many liberal private schools out there also.
>>>... I was subjected to an atmosphere of liberalism, diversity and open mindedness. <<<
Didn't have too much of an effect then, I take it.
Peace,
ANDEE
I too went to private school for a while - Phillips Academy, Andover, Massachusetts, the same one as our new President (I was there at the same time as his brothers Neil and Marvin, although I didn't know Neil to speak of and was only somewhat better acquainted with Marvin). Why he thinks private education is a good idea I don't know; for me the Andover experience was miserable. Interestingly enough, Andover was an extremely liberal environment at the time I was there (and still is, based on the alumni bulletin); in any event, the school doesn't seem to have had any long-term effect on his views.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
By creating school CHOICE, a person would be able to attend a school that matches his/her parents desires. Schools that can't perform well will stop making money and close.
A school is not supposed to provide a liberal education. A liberal wants a school to provide a liberal education and goes to a liberal school.
Public schools exist primarily as babysitters and for older children, prisons, and secondarily as government indocrination centers.
Private schools would be no different, but at least one would then choose the kind of propoganda one likes to hear, instead of the kind of propoganda the government wants you to hear.
When I say "liberal education", I don't mean teaching kids to be liberals. That is indoctrination, and no better than the right wing propoganda that I got. What I mean is that we need public schools because, since they are answerable to all people in their district, they can and should be able to provide an OPEN MINDED education. That is, teaching kids to THINK for themselves, rather than telling them what to believe.
Andrew
Right now, the Republicans are looking basically at two options -- the voucher allowances after three years of non-performance by local public schools based on standardized test scores, or the plan Giuliani talked about two weeks ago, which would give private corporations a chance to run local schools that have failed to perform under normal controls.
The UFT has been a lot more open to working on certain school reforms over the years, in an effort to head off the voucher plan, which would cost them jobs if people start putting their kids into private schools. But the much-larger NEA has said no to everything, then put all its chips down on Al Gore and the Democrats in the election and lost. As a result, the nation's biggest teacher's union has virtually no clout with Bush or Republican leaders in Congress, and may need a Jimmy Stewart-like fillabuster on the Senate floor by Hillary on any school reform bill to pull their fat out of the fire.
The corporate management plan would probably be a better first step than jumping straight into vouchers, but the NEA leaders think the system is just great as is for the people who really count -- the NEA leaders -- and they may pay the price for that in the next two years.
The problem is that the vouchers won't cover the whole cost of a good private school education. The net result is that the well to do get cash back for sending their kids to a posh private school, the moderate to do will pull their kids from public school and send them to private school and the poor and very poor will still be stuck in a public school system that has even less money. Another consequince is that in noce town with a good school system many parents will pull their kids from the good public school system to go to a "better" private school system. The resulting loss of money can turn a currently good public school into a bad one. Finally one of the things that makes private school so good is that they are small and hi quality and exclusive. Creating more private school demand will only serve to bring down the quality of private schools.
C'mon ... do you REALLY think shrub gives a rat's arse about anyone earning less than $230,000 a year? He's got himself a mandate to outdo Ronnie Raygun - he won the election, five to four. That's a majority and it's his.
Kirk: When the tears start rolling and roiling down your face, ask me for a crying towel and I'll send one. That little piece was one of the most ridiculous statements I've heard on this site. Didn't you hear his speech Saturday? Probably no, but let me put some new colors in your paint box. Education is his No.1 priority and there will be changes and for the better. Clinton talked of education for eight years and did squat. Nor did he do anything about Medicare, Social Security, or our dwindling national defense. Bush at least will try to do something about these problems.
Yeah, he'll waste everyone with standardized tests whose preperation for eats us valuable learning time, whose accuracy is questionable and whose result is kids who have learned how to take a standardized test. Then he'll find ways to withhold needed funding. All Bush wants to do is have kids learn nothing at public school so only wealthy, privatly schooled (republican) children will suceede in life.
Jersey Mike, stop education guys like Fred...;-) (You didn't charge him anything).
BMTman
[Education is his No.1 priority and there will be changes and for the better. Clinton talked of education for eight years and did squat. Nor did he do anything about Medicare, Social Security, or our dwindling national defense. Bush at least will try to do something about these problems.]
And you're in fantasyland if you think Bush-boy is going to tackle any of those subjects seriously. Ooops! I forgot! Cheney MIGHT tackle some of that for him!
BMTman
It is nice to know all you guys have already made up your alleged minds about what Bush is not going to do. Why not do two things.
1. Give the guy a chance to try what he says he wants to do. If he doesn't do anything in this regard, believe me, I will jump him too.
2. Admit that your boy Clinton did a great job of talking about education but accomplished BUMPKIS during eight years of hot air on the subject.
BTW---I don't know if you are a baseball fan, but I got my hotel and dinner reservations for a March 30 baseball reunion of the 50th anniversary of the Giants-Dodgers pennant race of 1951. If you know of anything subway wise going on that weekend let me know. I would like to railfan with a few of the guys.
I wonder if Bobby Thompson will be there (assuming he's still alive).
He's alive and will be there. It may be hard to believe but Bobby Thomson is an honorary member of the Brooklyn Dodger fan club. Imagine that? He goes to all their functions and they treat him like one of their own. Amazing, isn't it?
Time heals all wounds. New York Football Giant fans probably didn't wince as much last week about "The Fumble" when they heard Herman Edwards' name again as he was announced as the new coach of the Jets compared with hearing Herman mentioned 15 or 20 years ago. (Of course, hearing Herman Edwards' name on the week your team is going to the Super Bowl really had to take the hurt off a bunch for Giants fans -- hearing it last week if the Vikings had won would have been a little bit more painful).
Ah, yes, the Miracle at the Meadowlands. I remember it well. The only question I would ask is, what the $#@$% was Joe Pisarcik thinking of? He took a knee on the previous play; why not on the next play? It proved to be disastrous for the Giants; their season fell completely apart after that. The funny thing is, they seemed to score 17 points in every game that year, including the Miracle game.
You think that was bad? I was watching the game on TV and sitting next to an Eagles' fan when the damn thing happened and had just gotten through celebrating the interception that should have won the game for the Giants.
Up until that play, the Giants actually seemed to be turning the corner in the 1978 season. After it, they completely collapsed the rest of the year, 1979 was just as bad and 1980 was even worse, but at least the crappy seasons that followed got them Phil Simms and LT in the draft (and God bless New Orleans for taking George Rodgers with the first pick back in '81)
I'll bet Ralph Branca will be there. He's Bobby Valentine's father-in-law, incidentally.
I don't know if any of you heard this, but Mets fans will be saddened to hear that Tommie Agee died of a heart attack the other day. That makes two players from the Miracle Mets to have passed away. Cal Koonce died several years ago.
couldn't resist.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for clarifying both the new and old topic of this thread.
YOU are quite welcome.
Peace,
ANDEE
Larry: At least you get it. I'm a public school teacher and, therefore, not too keen on vouchers for private schools. I think they would be too selective and leave kids out who really need a good education. My idea is to have magnet and fundamental schools built within those communities where poor kids are getting shafted. They would have the opportunity to get a good education and get away from the punks and troublemakers who don't want to be in school, disrupt the classes, and cause trouble. I'm convinced with public magnet schools and vouchers for public schools many kids who are in need could get the start they need to make it this tough world we live in today. One more thing. Long range, we have to do something to end this illegimate birth rate among African=American couples. Fathers father a child and then take off, leaving the poor kids without a father figure. That is devastating to young children, especially
black male children. The illegimate birth rate among blacks is over
70%. That's a tragedy in the first degree. And close to a third of white children are now born out of wedlock. These are problems that will take time to correct, I admit, but as far as the school situation is concerned we can do something about right now if we have the will to do. And we MUST help poor children get the opportunity to succeed. There is no more time to lose. I think the new President understands this and will do something to correct this.
School vouchers will wreck public education.
That'll be like wrecking Hiroshima on August 7, 1945.*
*If you don't know, the bomb was dropped on August 6
You just had a bad public school experiance. There's no need to apply your isolated experiance to public schools in general.
I had a good public school experience. I went to a brand new $140 million riverfront school with escalators while all of the other school were suffering for lack of funding.
Perhaps the morning of Aug 7 in Japan was the evening of Aug 6 in the USA.
"After hearing what Ashcroft ideas and motives are about, I would vote for the dead guy too."
While I don't agree with one of his organizations that says Catholicism is a cult, I can easily forgive him because I know a lot of Protestants who do not exactly understand the idea behind the universal church. But other than that, I do like his ideas as far as life issues are concerned.
Also, we will find out what kind of President Bush becomes. Give him a chance, now that his term has finally begun. Hopefully he will be a good leader, and already I can see that he has better character and won't use the oval office like Bubba did. :-) -Nick
>>>While I don't agree with one of his organizations that says Catholicism is a cult, I can easily forgive him because I know a lot
of Protestants who do not exactly understand the idea behind the universal church.
Nick: Well Nick, not understanding something - ignorance - is the key to bigotry. Bigotry - especially from supposed people of faith against other religious groups - is difficult to forgive.
It never ceases to amaze me how Catholics are probably the largest (nearly 30% of the U.S. population) group in this country to face significant prejudice (after women as a group): Catholics do not sit well with either major party, and with neither conservatives in this country or liberals here as well.
Unfortunately, to be "conservative" in this country, to many people, stills means being a Protestant Christian. It really does. No Catholics, Jews, or any other people of faith are truly welcome regardless of how conservatively they may vote on major political issues (and Catholics are noted for certain conservative slants) or of even how wealthy they may be. And I am not just talking about Bob Jones either. Indeed, the last time the Pope visited Denver, some fundamentalist groups were most adamant in denouncing him, complete with billboards dubbing him "the Antichrist" suddenly appearing along the roadways. Would Methodist or Baptist celebrations draw such a bigoted and parochial response from another religious group, of all things - almost totally unheard of?! In any case, any similarly hostile response to most large Protestant religious events would draw an unbelievably ascerbic political backlash - one that certainly did not exist after the Pope's visit. Also, remember that Denver is a city with a reputation for being considerably more liberal than almost any other in the Rocky Mountain states. Also, Catholicism does have a marked emphasis on caring for the poor and, in many ways, social equality - an honorable and selfless ideal not likely to sit very well with the previously mentioned folks either.
Meanwhile, the liberals in this country fear Catholics for their positions on many sexual issues (abortion, contraception, extarmarital relations, homosexuality, etc.)and on several key social issues including drug abuse.
Good heavens!
-cordially,
turnstiles
"Nick: Well Nick, not understanding something - ignorance - is the key to bigotry. Bigotry - especially from supposed people of faith against other religious groups - is difficult to forgive."
"It never ceases to amaze me how Catholics are probably the largest (nearly 30% of the U.S. population) group in this country to face significant prejudice"
Turnstiles,
I agree: Prejudice of all kinds SUCKS, and the Catholic Church has certainly seen its fair share of it. I guess I have learned to be very forgiving of Protestant Christians because I am apart of an interdenominational Christian group, and occasionally I get some odd words about Catholicism. But after I explain a few things, usually they realize that there were things they did not understand. I would imagine understanding is apart of the key to stopping all prejudice; it is just a matter of how open minded people are willing to be, which is a hard idea to push. I'm glad that W mentioned that he would like to see the American People "Go out of there comfort zone", which could be a key step.
Peace Out,
Nick
>>>." I guess I have learned to be very forgiving of Protestant Christians because I am apart of an interdenominational Christian group,..."
Nick: Great! Interdenominational organizations are great things to participate in and I am most glad that you do. :) Also, few Christians have ever seen in the inside of a synagogue or a mosque during actual services - I have and both experiences were memorable.
-cordially,
turnstiles
"Also, few Christians have ever seen in the inside of a synagogue or a mosque during actual services - I have and both experiences were memorable."
Yep, you've got it...the more understanding we have of other faiths the better off everyone is. I have been to one bar mitzvah, and have been to a passover celebration as well;the local synogogue invited Catholics and Protestants over for a special "learning dinner." -Nick
Nobody likes Catholics because they are mean jerks and they breed like rabbits. They also fall into my cagetogy of "religions who ideas can destroy the world".
Let's keep religion off this board.
I expect to get royally flamed, as I did when I suggested keeping politics off the board. Obviously politics is very popular here.
My religious belief is right and everybody else's is wrong. What more is there to say?
Right on Chuchubob.
My religious belief is wrong, and everybody else's is right!
LOL!
I respectfully request you back up a bit.
Peace,
ANDEE
Jersey, I am a former Catholic who converted to Judaism. and I find your remarks off base. I love my Catholic relatives dearly and don't remember any meanness on the part of any Catholic clergy. Please Respect your fellow man Heck, John PaulII had as much to do with pushing over the rotted timbers of Communism in eastern europe as did Reagan
While I have POLITICAL disagreements with some positions taken by the R. C. hierarchy, your comments are beyond the pale. Please return to steel wheels on twin steel rails.
If that's what you believe then you have to be one big horse's ass. That's bigotry in the extreme and your opinions on this disgust me. You have the right to say them, and I have the right to say what I want about you when you attack my faith and those who share it with me.
But this IS the republicanism I've seen the last 20 years or so and had hoped that when Plant Sr. had gone away that we'd be done with this kind of religious intolerance. But now that Ashcroft is about to be our leader of the law, looks like we haven't learned a thing.
Whatever happened to the Goldwater republicans? Oh yeah, they're called "liberals" now.
>>>But this IS the republicanism I've seen the last 20 years or so...
Selkirk: I've been seeing the same thing as well. I hope for the best concerning narrow-minded fundamentalism, but then reality inserts itself back.
-cordially,
turnstiles
What bothers me the most is that the republicans just didn't learn *WHY* we threw them out over this precise nonsense 8 years ago. And it looks already like the same dumbass moves, starting with restarting the terrorism at women's health clinics (ones that NEVER did abortions included) followed by assault on contraception, followed by ludicrous economic policies that swell up the money supply rapidly resulting in inflation followed by unemploment followed by an obsession with war and war machinery and on and on and on while the common citizen suffers for it all and the fat cats go buy another yacht. Clinton won the first time around because he knew the price of milk and didn't try to impress us with a robe and scepter and a keen interest in what we were doing in our bedrooms.
As Ronnie Raygun would have said, "there you go again" ... for a whole four years. The American people want fiscal conservatism (not tax cuts) and social liberalism (we'll leave you alone as long as you don't wave it from a rooftop) ... aw nuts ... I'm just going to raise my blood pressure.
I just HOPE that for the next four years, they can find a liberal version of Rush Limbaugh to irritate the hell out of the insiders and give them the guff we had to endure for the past 8 years. It'll also be curious to see if the "patriot movement" which has been nothing but hot swamp gas the past 8 years finally mobilizes against this coup d'etat given us by a rogue court. I ain't holding my breath.
Here's hoping we still have trains in four years ...
Heres hoping we are still free in 4 years.
Here's hoping Dick Cheney doesn't have a fatal heart attack within the next four years...
BMTman
Then we'd be stuck with no President at all. Dunno if anyone's read his wife's book but she's had premonitions of Cheney keeling over shortly after assuming power. And heaven help us if anything happens to the Assistant President - word is that no disaster in Texas was big enough to peel Shrub away from his video games - no joke - word is he is the penultimate slacker ... Sure hope that no major crises in the world happen after 9PM local time ...
You guys are both hilarious and sick. I'm crying with laughter. I suffered through eight years with the worst person ever to be President. Now it's your turn. Enjoy---and keep the crocodile tears alflowing. Ha!!!!!!
I suffered through eight years with the worst person ever to be President.
I'm sorry to hear that the eighties were a bad decade for you. Hope the NAUGHTIES will be better.
Oo, that's the best term yet!
Nobody likes Catholics because they are mean jerks and they breed like rabbits. They also fall into my cagetogy of "religions who ideas can destroy the world".
Why is it that when one left cost poster makes hatefull post(most of them less hatefull then the above) evreyone jumps all over him? But when someone else post something hatefull many of those people don't respond?
I found the statement to be extreme in its ignorance and hate. Indeed, another sad lesson learned about one of our posters.
Peace,
ANDEE
I had some very bad experiances growing up with a local catholic family and the kids who went to a local catholic school. I also dislike the church for its treatment of groups not exactly like its self. I feel if the church is going to be mean and hateful towards gays, women and other religions in general I'm going to be mean and hatful towards them. But unlike the church I'm not going to be a hypocrite and say I really love them.
That still makes you a bigot. Others have gotten over their bigoted feelings towards others. Education and maturity can do it, but for some reason you still wallow in your hatred towards Catholics. I resent that because I happen to be very loyal to my Church, but rally to those who find their own faith to be fulfilling.
I don't see what is wrong about disliking a idealogical group as long as it dosen't affect your feelings towards any particiular member of that group. Like the Republican party the Catholic Church has ideals and methods I oppose. When taken as a whole I dislike catholics and their organization. Taken indivudually I have no problems with catholics and when I meet one I only feel disapointed that there is another person on "their" side. People are free to believe what they want and therefore I bare no malice towards any catholic for being catholic. I can object to what they believe and what their group represents en aggragate. I can only object to an indivudual person based on their actions, not their beliefs.
I'll suggest it again - drop the anti-Catholic talk, regardless of any distinctions you might make between dislike of the group and dislike of individuals. Otherwise, people will add you to their killfiles and no one will pay attention to anything else you might say, no matter how relevant it may be.
Jersey Mike makes valid points about his opposition to the Catholic Church, even though he didn't express it all that well in the first few messages.
It seems that any kind of criticism against a particular group is not allowed unless you are a member of said group.
Not to mention the fact that religions are always untouchable and no matter how abominable their practices are, they have to be judged by their own standards instead of by the standards of civilization.
That being said, I don't agree with Jersey Mike's asessment of the Catholic Church as a whole, even if I disagree with many of its principles.
Why don't you come up to South Boston and let all the people there know what you thin about catholics. Maybee you will be more rspectfull of them.
I found the statement to be extreme in its ignorance and hate. Indeed, another sad lesson learned about one of our posters.
Peace
ANDEE
Yeah, I used to think JM was OK
I still think Jersey Mike's posting was meant to be sarcasm.
>>>I still think Jersey Mike's posting was meant to be sarcasm. <<<
Well....then let him tell us that himself.
Peace,
ANDEE
I meant it to be a broad sweeping generalization. I don't dislike catholics specifically, I dislike them in general. The reasons are outlined in my post above. I am intollerant of unfounded intollerance, human manipulation and believeable misrepresentation and I feel the catholic church is guilty on all 3 counts.
As a Catholic myself (name is Kevin McAleavey for anyone who cares) I know what you mean. It's got my wife in its clutches too which is why the Coronation of the Shrub is such a big no-goodnik around this house. I was born and raised in it and I accept it. But I also remember the preachings of the Sisters of Charity who indoctrinated us kids with "jews eat babies" and ridiculous hatred based on total pookahs.
This board has already liplocked on politics. The "temple" has already been besmirched there. I don't want to waste more bandwidth with a "religion thread" on top of that ... Suffice it to say that I know what you say is real, seen it myself, but in the Catholic tradition (which includes rites of exorcism to this day) it would only figure that Satan would pick on the "most powerful church" and twist it all to crap.
Believe the principles of your own religious guidance and ignore what you see that contradicts that which you know holds true. God is love, everything else is crap. 'nuff said. Moo. :)
As my father used to say..."You talk like a man with a paper ass"
Peace,
ANDEE
No it wasn't because he's already spilled the beans abaout his true feelings and how he came upon them.
Nobody likes Catholics because they are mean jerks and they breed like rabbits. They also fall into my cagetogy of "religions who ideas can destroy the world".
Why is it that when one left cost poster makes hatefull post(most of them less hatefull then the above) evreyone jumps all over him? But when someone else post something hatefull many of those people don't respond?
Well, there have been a number of responses to Jersey Mike's aforementioned posting. And don't forget that he usually makes intelligent postings, in sharp contrast to Salaamallah's drivel, and therefore might be able to get away with more.
Besides, I interpreted Jersey Mike's posting as sarcasm.
The reason I went off like that is because of this catholic family that lived nearby. The mother hated me for no aparent reason, she tried to run me and my friend over with her car (not kidding), she had 5 kids and they were all jerks, they went to the local cathloic school and everyone I ran into who went there was a jerk. I'm bitter because I could never get my revenge in any meaningful way.
The reason I went off like that is because of this catholic family that lived nearby. The mother hated me for no aparent reason, she tried to run me and my friend over with her car (not kidding), she had 5 kids and they were all jerks, they went to the local cathloic school and everyone I ran into who went there was a jerk. I'm bitter because I could never get my revenge in any meaningful way.
Blasting a whole religion because of one bad family is pointless. For all you know, those people might simply have been schmucks, and would have been schmucks no matter what their religion might have been.
Regarding your other comments about the Catholic church, you should keep in mind that the church can be much more tolerant and open-minded in practice than its official policies might lead one to believe.
You really should tone down the anti-Catholic rhetoric. Keep it up, and you'll be like Salaamallah - no one will take your postings seriously and you'll probably be in many killfiles.
I know I probably shouldn't call them all jerks, but after my experiance with that family and school its hard not to. I dislike the catholics as I dislike the Rebublicans. I don't dislike the indivuduals, just the group. Just because one is a political party and one is a religion makes no differance to me. To me they are both objectionable institutions. Nobody objects to Republican bashing on this board.
I do. I do because I'm a Republican. But that is your choice to bash if you want. I'm a Catholic-Republican. I wonder if it would be High Noon if we ever met in the street.
First of all it is people like you who helf ellect people like tren lott and ashcroff with yout ulra-libral views.
second it is one thing to say you diagree with the views a political party and make genralizions about there values since they are likely to be the same. it is another to see that you don't like people who belong to church because you don't like the views of it's leaders.
First of all it is people like you who helf ellect people like tren lott and ashcroff with yout ulra-libral views.
Huh? How do ultra-liberals elect Trent Lout and John Ashcrapt?
Yes, I'd enjoy some clarification on that too.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry Surf, you are not going to get any clarification. Every time he tries to clarify he puts his foot deeper in his mouth. I started this thread and maybe I should be the one to suggest we end it.
I started this thread and maybe I should be the one to suggest we end it.
If you can't take the heat, why did you bother starting the thread to begin with?
I suggest that this thread ends when there are no longer any responses to any posts, like any natural thread.
I can take the heat Pork, and I assure I can give it out too. I just thought we have taken this as far as we can.
>Huh? How do ultra-liberals elect Trent Lout and John Ashcrapt?
many people do not like far right or far left pols but if they have to chose they chose far right pols. Ulra-liberals scare people away from voteing for and democrat.
That's horrible, since far righters are much scarier than lefters.
"A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy."
-Benjamin Disraeli, Speech on agricultural Interests, March 17, 1845.
That's horrible, since far righters are much scarier than lefters.
Not when the far lefters are better at folling people.
folling?
Wasn't there a time when you wrote intelligibly?
sorry I was going to write fooling.
Righters are better at folling people. People other than the wealthiest 5% actually voted for them.
People other than the wealthiest 5% actually voted for them.
That's because people other than the top 5% like a small goverment. (that also includes not haveing all of the right wing "moral law" as weel).
Since the only alternative to freedom is poison, I would prefer a government that cared more about civil liberties even if it meant that it would strangle business with too many regulations.
Therefore, I have to prefer liberals each time, since I would prefer a big government to moral law.
The current democrats are sellouts and aren't very good with the rights of the individual.
civil liberties are my number one issue as well.
Niether the Dems or the Reps are very good on this issue now.
Dand124, Maybe if you learned to spell people would be more inclined to agree with you. your spelling makes you look like the Salaam Allah of the Right
I never meant I don't like the people. Only the all the people put together in their group. Because the actions of a group can never represent the wishes of all the people I can't talk about the group as a seperate entity w/o implying anything about any of the people in it.
Thin of the Catholics you know who you like. There must be a few of them. Judge Catholics by them not those who may have hurt you when you were young. Hatred and revenge only destroy the ones who holds those emotions. I married a Protestant, and my daughter is going steady (close to four years) with a Jewish boy. It should be live and let live and respect for the rights of others. Try it. It will work.
So because I once ran into a Black person who was I jerk i can make raceist remarkes?
I remember the Pope's visit to Denver in 1993 for World Youth Days (even attended the Papal Mass at Cherry Creek State Park) and frankly don't recall seeing any condescending billboard messages of any kind. He did give Mr. Bill a piece of his mind on abortion.
I wonder if anyone told Ashcroft that his boy is a Mason. Dunno if anyone caught it on the tube, but that Bible he was sworn in on was the same one his daddy swore on as did George Washington, maintained at the New York Masonic Temple. Most thumpers would go apeshirt if they had been paying attention, certainly Ashcroft. And Ashcroft don't dance (it's against the rules of the Faith Assembly of God churches) and has promised a full government crackdown on Hollywood.
Anyone here alive back in the 70's? Here we go again ... Daddy's Bible, Nixon's administration. Gotta love it ... or else.
I wonder if anyone told Ashcroft that his boy is a Mason.
Actually, I don't believe that our new President is. He simply requested to use that Bible because it was the one used by President Washington - as have many of his predecessors in the White House. On the other hand, I have no reason to believe that I would cast a black cube if Mr. Bush were to petition my lodge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As far as I know the Bush family ARE Masons. That's why that specific bible was requested. Jimmy Carter, George Sr., used it as well as Washington and Honest Abe.
ONLY a President who is born into the Masonic Brotherhood is allowed to use that Bible in ceremonial rites.
BTW, if anyone has seen Kubrick's last movie, "Eyes Wide Shut", the idea of "secret societies" and such is explored in the film, which indirectly relates to groups like the Masons and other powerful or 'elite' organizations.
BMTman
ONLY a President who is born into the Masonic Brotherhood is allowed to use that Bible in ceremonial rites.
As a member of a constituent lodge of the New York Grand Lodge, under whose jurisdiction that Bible is maintained, I can state unequivocally that the above statement is not true.
First, NO ONE is "born" into the Masonic fraternity. You must petition, once you have achieved the lawful age (21, in most jurisdictions) and be elected to receive the degrees. There is no family or religious requirement, save for a belief in a Supreme Being, by whatever name one chooses to describe the deity.
Second, many non-Masonic presidents have used that Bible. The last President to be a member of the Masonic fraternity was Gerald Ford; before him, Harry S. Truman (who had also served as Grand Master of Masons in Missouri). LBJ was elected to the fraternity but never completed the degrees (I think he was initiated, but was not passed or raised). I don't know if any of these men used that Bible. Carter is not a Mason, nor is Bush Sr. (as far as I know), nor was Lincoln.
There are many sources of information on the Masonic Fraternity; I'll list two here in case you are interested in looking further.
George Washington Masonic Memorial
St. John's Bible info
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is no family or religious requirement, save for a belief in a Supreme Being, by whatever name one chooses to describe the deity.
Like the Almighty Dispatcher!
I'll certainly look into this, Chris.
However, I had thought that the OFFSPRING of a Mason is already part of the brotherhood by the fact that their father is one? That was what I meant by being 'born into the Masonic Fraternity'.
Thanks for the clarifications.
BMTman
However, I had thought that the OFFSPRING of a Mason is already part of the brotherhood by the fact that their father is one?
No, that is not the case. And, quite frankly, I can think of a couple of cases where that's a darn good thing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're thinking of the Stone Cutters.
Ya know what? After all this, I now realize that I've been confusing 'fraternal societies' and 'secret societies'.
As for the later, I had read that the some of the Bush boys (I know that George Sr. and his dad) belong to the 'Order of the Skull and Bones'. It is a 'club' for CIA members and others associated with US Government 'special services'.
BMTman
Carter is not a Mason, nor is Bush Sr. (as far as I know), nor was Lincoln.
I know that Bush Sr. was a Stonecutter, and a member of their world council. I guess he's now a member of the Ancient Order of No Homers.
First, NO ONE is "born" into the Masonic fraternity. You must petition, once you have achieved the lawful age (21, in most jurisdictions) and be elected to receive the degrees. There is no family or religious requirement, save for a belief in a Supreme Being, by whatever name one chooses to describe the deity.
Is it true that Masons cannot recruit new members, and that candidates therefore must apply of their own volition?
Although I have never been a Mason I had a lot of friends that were.Solicitng is not permitted..by the.. rules anyway.hence you'll see "F&AM" meaning as I think Free and Accepted Masons. You have to offer yourself of yor own will.
Masons are not permitted to solicit prospective members, but I believe they may encourage a prospective member to petition.
I have heard that like all other organizations, membership in the Masonic order has been declining in recent years.
The Moose, Elks, Eagles, Lions, Vets, and even the Rotary are supposedly suffering membership decline. Some, if not all of these are permitted to solicit new members!
Yes, that's true. On the other hand, Masons are free to talk about the fraternity with others (although many would characterize Masonry as a secret society, that's not true - we simply have certain means of recognition that are known only to us) and many jurisdictions now have informational material readily available that make petitioning a Lodge much easier.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My school has 2/3 seceret socities. We have the Skull and Serpent and 2 groups calling themselves the Mystical 7, each claiming to be the real one. They meet in a small Heptagon building. I have found that the only benifit to a seceret societys is being able to use their "clubhouse" (which is usually pretty crapy when you get right down to it) which nobody else can get into.
Daddy also got Shrub into "Skull and Bones" which is the ULTIMATE "New World Order secret society" - "Majestic 12" itself! When it comes to underworld control, it doesn't get any deeper than this without use of a tunnel shield.
For 8 years, I endured the whining of the Limbag crew over "UN takeovers" of the US ... now we HAVE it. It's going to be an interesting four years. The Masonic angle (George Washington was a Mason also) is nothing compared to the other groups shrub is part of and a party to. The underworld is in control.
(George Washington was a Mason also)
As were almost half of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Our country was founded on Masonic principles, first and foremost being the idea of equality. The Lodge, in its organization, is a democracy. It uses the secret ballot in its elections, both of new members and of its officers. Within the Lodge one's social standing or personal wealth is irrelevant. President Theodore Roosevelt liked to attend Lodge meetings when he was home in Oyster Bay; within the Lodge, he was just another member, while (one year) his gardener was the Master.
And, as I mentioned in another part of this thread, neither of the Bushes are Masons, as far as I know; Ford was our last Masonic president.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then why in heaven's name would the NY Lodge permit the Bible to be used by Shrub? My understanding is that it is not a privilege granted to non-members and that to request it you MUST be a member?
Not that I have any issues with the Masons - I receive my copy of the Cornerstone when it comes out ... but given the attitude of the bible thumpers about anyone who is not Pentecostal, wouldn't this alone be cause for them to start impeachment procedures against the boy?
Hmmmmm....
My understanding is that it is not a privilege granted to non-members and that to request it you MUST be a member?
Not correct. That particular Bible has significance to this country far beyond its Masonic connections. Anyone elected to the highest office in the land would be permitted its use for the purpose of taking the inaugural oath.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BTW, if anyone has seen Kubrick's last movie, "Eyes Wide Shut", the idea of "secret societies" and such is explored in the film, which indirectly relates to groups like the Masons and other powerful or
'elite' organizations.
I've never been to a Masonic meeting, but I can guarantee you that they're absolutely nothing like the "Eyes Wide Shut" orgy scene!
(Speaking of EWS, my wife is still annoyed by the fact that Kubrick showed everything of the women and nothing of the men)
[I've never been to a Masonic meeting, but I can guarantee you that they're absolutely nothing like the "Eyes Wide Shut" orgy scene!]
Peter, I meant the general idea behind the movie, not the orgy business.
Again, I said in a prior post that I had confused the Masonic fraternity with the secret fraternal order such as the 'Skull and Bones Society' that some of the Bush clan belong to. "Eyes Wide Shut" dealt more with a 'secret fraternal order' than with a mainstream group like the Masons.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I hope this clears this up.
BMTman
Again, I said in a prior post that I had confused the Masonic fraternity with the secret fraternal order such as the 'Skull and
Bones Society' that some of the Bush clan belong to. "Eyes Wide Shut" dealt more with a 'secret fraternal order' than with a mainstream group like the Masons.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I hope this clears this up.
I've heard that the Skull and Bones group at Yale is more like a regular beers-'n-babes college fraternity than a real secret society. They maintain the aura of secrecy mainly so they can seem exclusive. The Bush clan's ties with the group probably don't mean much.
Yeah, I remember the Carter years all to well. The last R-1/9s were retired a little over two months after he took office, and it was all downhill from there.
Boy, was it ever. And I voted for that incompetent in 1976. I didn't make the same mistake in 1980, though.
I do like his ideas as far as life issues are concerned.
Men have no right to talk about "life issues." 70% of pro-life activists are men. 100% of them will never get pregnant.*
*I stole that one from a subway ad.
Aggreed!
Andrew
Your probably right that George Bush senior had to run the country differently than Ronald Reagan who was a destroyer. It seems like George W. Bush may try to take the Republican party back from the screwballs. His pick for John Ashcroft as Attorney General will certainly generate a good deal of controversy if it hasn't already. John Ashcroft says that he'll uphold the rights of the people even though he doesn't believe in certain things provided that he feels it would be for the good of the country. It seems that there are some people who will go against their beliefs if they feel that they would hurt others. It should be very interesting if John Ashcroft upholds the Constitution of the United States over his beliefs. If he does it will show that he believes in the separation of church and state according to the constituion. There will be instances where even though you might not believe in a certain principal because of your religious background that you have to uphold it anyway because you have to follow the rules according to the constitution. This is one of the rules that were laid down by our forefathers of this country and it will demonstrate that even though you are a government official you must uphold the law(s) of the land over your religious beliefs. In many ways the rules of our constitution are more important than our religious beliefs.
It is known that George W. Bush has dyslexia which is going to present some difficulties for him and I'm sure that many people voted for him because he had overcome his dyslexia somewhat. He will not come across to many people as possessing a great deal of intelligence though I don't think that he's all that stupid. He probably has enough brains to run the country and experience is often the best teacher. I don't think that he would have even survived the primaries if he had presented himself as a total idiot. He may not turn out to be the greatest president but I certainly don't expect him to be like Ronald Reagan who I think was amongst our worst presidents. It remains to be seen if George W. Bush turns out to be at least a satisfactory president. There is one thing going against him though. Historically when a president has won office by the majority of the electoral vote but the minority of the popular vote has not won reelction. I think that George W. Bush has his work cut out for him. He might get plenty of help from his father. One should also realize that both Al Gore and George W. Bush brought up many of the same issues that have to be resolved. I think that Bush added the fact that the military has suffered in recent years and needs to be rejuvenated. This might be true because it turns out that even though Ronald Reagan spent billions of dollars on military programs he didn't spend money to maintain what we already had and in subsequent years the military has suffered. It is probably more important that we spend money on the military not to defend against Russia but to protect ourselves from third world and other rogue nations.
One might realize that George W. Bush may not necessarily be a fan of public transit but I'm not expecting him to slash the funds for public transit like Ronald Reagan did which caused problems for many public transit systems. I think that he will be very different from Ronald Reagan and won't do the things to public transit like Ronald Reagan did. George W. Bush probably saw the damage that Ronald Reagan did and will probably still be undoing some of the damage the Ronald Reagan did. He says that he isn't Anti-Big government like Ronald Reagan was. Sometimes you need big government to protect the common people.
I have a suggestion for George W. Bush. Take care of the power crisis in the State of California. They are suffering so if you have any friends or relatives out there in California please contact George W. Bush and tell him that they're suffering and maybe something will be done about it. BTW ex-president Ronald Reagan lives in California.
BMTJeff
"I have a suggestion for George W. Bush. Take care of the power crisis in the State of California."
Not within Bush's power. The California power crisis is due in the main to flaws in the legislature-approved deregulation plan. Which parts are the flaws depends on your politics. :^) But it's clear that the deregulation statute has to be amended to fix the electricity problem, and changing California law is strictly the business of the Californians.
Bush will get the credit -- or the blame -- in about a year when the deregulation plan he and the Texas Legislature forumlated goes into effect. It's due to be phased in starting this summer, and the main differences are a lack of price controls on what utilities can charge consumers, and the fact that two dozen new power plants were built in anticipation of the deregulation move.
Aside from that test, the toughest may be this -- William Carinecoss, the man who helped guide LILCO into bankruptcy, is running one of the major utility companies in Texas. If the Texas deregulation plan leads to screw ups like in California, chances are Bill's company will get their first.
Bush could also try to prevent crisises like the one that is occurring in California with proper legislation.
BMTJeff
It doesn't appear to me that he has the slightest intention of being moderate. So far the whole "uniter not a divider" thing has proven to be nothing but rhetoric. His single most important cabinet appointment, John Ashcroft, is conservative enough to make Newt Gingridge blush! And here he is "reviewing" (ie: attempting to destroy) Clinton's land conservation bills.
After the single most bitter election in my lifetime--if not in all American History, you'd think Dubya would be struggling to make compromises to bring the country together. But here he is rubbing salt in open wounds.
Hail To The Thief!
Andrew
Hail To The Thief!
A majority of Americans voted against both of the candidates, people were disenfranchised, and in many states and nationwide, the margin of error was greater than the margin of victory.
NOBODY won this election. However, unlike those dumbass polls before the election, somebody has to win the actual election. It's imperfect and MUST be reformed, but this is not a time to call the President of the US a thief.
NOBODY won this election. However, unlike those dumbass polls before the election, somebody has to win the actual election. It's imperfect and MUST be reformed, but this is not a time to call the President of the US a thief.
Well said.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He is a thief and he is NOT worthy of respect, BUT he can EARN it
Gore would have had the same problems from the other half if he had been "elected."
Nope ... he's already blown it with women. Not even 24 hours for him to do it either. Why can't we have Martin Sheen?
John: Those words are not worthy of you. Give the man a chance. I think you will be plesantly surprised.
Women have already been surprised ... by the SPEED with which he's killed the Clinton executive order that granted women the choice of RU-486. Caught another little tidbit today - the $1500 school voucher proposal that can only be used with Christian Academies. Nice touch. Looks like layoffs for public school teachers who are the root cause of all of our educational problems and the NEA for which they stand.
But I guess I don't have to care. I'm not a woman and I'm not a teacher. let the good times roll.
Here is my suggestion to the other 48 states in the U.S. (Maine and Nebraska, you don't have a problem), do away with the "Winner-Take-All" concept in dealing out electoral votes, use a "percentage system", propotianate to the popular vote. That way, the smaller states will still be counted, everybody's vote will count more, and third parties would be an influence. The way the current system is set up, if you're not on the winning side, then you're really wasting your vote.
The number of electors in any state compared to its population makes that flawed. Assuming FL assigned its electors this way, Bush would get 13 votes, Gore 12, but that margin would be more than Bush's .0825% margin. It is better than our current system though.
Besides, America is not a proportional representation kind of country. The Maine and Nebraska system is the best, nobody would care about the small districts or the statewide vote since it is just one or two people, and any recount would be on a small scale. In this case, not only are Maine and Nebraska set up, but so are the Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana, Alaska and other one representative states.
In addition, there should be a national election standard for national elections, it's a matter of equal protection. At the very least, each state should have statewide standards.
I think someone did the numbers, awarding electors for 2000 based on which candidate (Bush or Gore) won each specific congressional district (which is how Maine and Nebraska divide up their votes) and awarding electoral votes, and then awarding the two electoral votes based on the U.S. Senate seats to the candidate who won each state.
If I remember right, insead of Bush 271, Gore 267, it would have come out Bush 273, Gore 265, because in some of the states Gore won he took certain congressional district by lopsided totals (think the North Philly neighborhood that voted 100 percent for Gore), while Bush won some mainly rural CDs by tight margins.
Depending on how close any of the 26 congressional district totals were in Florida, there still may have been a recount, since Gore could have picked up a couple of votes by flipping two CDs, plus gotten the two senatorial electoral votes for winning the state outright, and that would have given him the presidency.
I agree doing the votes by congressional district would be a better way, but the odds are 50-50 it wouldn't have prevented the mess following this year's election.
The whole point of the "electrical college" (shrub once called it that) is that people aren't smart enough to vote for president. I'd almost have to agree given the outcome. I wonder how the Naderites feel now that they're going to get an oil derrick IN their back yards and women have had their reproductive rights taken away. Was it good for you guys? Liberals killed by their own hand. Gotta love it.
FYI at least this voter for Nader did so with the certain knowledge CA would not go for Bush. So I was able to vote for someone even more willing to support transit among other issues. My vote for Nader is not responsible for corrupt events in Florida or the Supreme Court Chambers.
The thing is you can't blame Nader. Any of those wacky looser canidates who appear on ballots (like the Socalist Party or the God Bless Jersey party) chould have made the differance. Simply by the fact that everybody is to blame, nobody is to blame.
Point of political reality - "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." It's part of the get-along, go-along nature of political pander bears. Fact - Nader killed off 96,000 votes in Florida that would have gone to the Gorebore ... had Nader recognized that the numbers did NOT exist for the Greens to get their funding, Nader COULD have called upon his supporters in Florida and two other states where Nader DID "spoil the milk" to vote for Gore instead of him. Instead, he stood up and said, "If Gore can't beat that idiot, it's not my problem."
Tell that to the spotty owls and the seals in the arctic wilderness. Tell that to the residents of Manhattan when the oil wells and gas pipeheads go up in Central Park. If protecting the environment was as important as his ego, then Ralph would have fallen on his sword like a true statesman to protect that which he holds sacred. He didn't and therefore he's earned my scorn on that basis alone.
Nader's votes in Florida WOULD have made the difference.
everybody's vote will count more,
That's impossible! Everybodies vote counts a certain percentage out of 100%. If you add the importance of of all the votes you will get 100%. If you make some people's votes worth more some votes must then be worth less.
Hypnotist: "You Will Give 110%."
Softball Team chanting:: "That is impossible, by definition 100% is all that anybody can give."
What I meant that was in a "winner-take-all" format, your vote will not count at all unless you're on the winning side. Granted that I'm a Nader-Raider, but I should not be made to feel guilty for not voting neither Democrat nor Republican. If you lived in a state where the majority voted for Bush, and you've voted for Gore, eventually your vote will go to Bush, and that is why the "winner-take-all" format must be scrapped (like the M-4 Market-Frankford cars). Would you like it if your vote went to the guy you were rooting against?
Your vote dosen't go to Bush. It goes to deside a statewide contest between Bush or Gore. There are no national elections. We live in a collection of soverign states held together by a central government with limited powers. Your vote goes to deside what your state says in a national election. In our country majority rules and a majority of the voters in the state say what the state officially says and does. A state can't say two things at once. Even in the scope of a national election the indivudual voters voice stops at the state boundary. Don't blame the system just because your prefered canidate would have won with different rules. I feel that we have a great system and it should stay just the way it is. If it is unfair it is equally unfair to all at different times. Please direct your anger to things that took place on a state level (Flordia).
Well if that's the case Jersey Mike, then each state should get only ONE electoral vote, because really that's what the "winner-take-all" format is about. Besides, my preferred candidate, Ralph Nader would'nt have won anyway, it would mean that he would at least get 5 electoral votes, and the Gorebots would stop trying to lay a guilt trip on me. When does democracy come to an end? It comes to an end when people are afraid to vote for their preferred candidate in order to keep "the lesser of two evils out", and that is what the "winner-take-all" format does, it instills fear in people from voting for their chosen candidate, and your vote does not really count, unless you're on the winning side.
As I said before Nader isn't to blame. The Socalist canidate got more then 500 votes. So did the Reform Party and the Libertarian Party. You can shift the blame to any of them.
Some guy in California changed his name to Absolutely Nobody to caputre all the protest votes. Also once Mickey Mouse won an election in Flordia. Flordia now has a law against electing cartoon animals.
They were probably afraid of too much concentration of political power in Orlando. :)
I predict a recession and a forigen policy debaccle that will be termed Jimmy Carter II. This election has drained any enthusiasm I had for the political process. I plan to ignore everything political for the next 4 years and then try again with a fresh start. If I ever see W on TV I'm changing the channel or hitting mute. Listening to it will only make me scream, yell and get all angry. As far as I am concerned there is no president for the next 4 years. Just some conservative mouthpiece.
"Many of us were jumping with joy when George W was inaugurated as 43rd President today."
I am right with you, Fred!
"but the joy was somewhat tempered by the knowledge that New York carpetbagged once again by sending hilarious Hillary to the US Senate."
I hear you there....everyone knows that she just wants to rule the world, and will run for prez in either '04 or '08. Because she carpetbagged her way into NY, I am hoping that the Yankees will play the Chicago Cubs in the World Series...I want to see her reaction!
"Now I'll admit that I can't see Dubya riding the subway, but you Demos out there, can you really envision the hilarious one riding on one?"
As much as I hate the woman, she did ride the N train during her senate campaign. While it's true W won't be riding the subway (even though the DC Metro is wonderful), I could see him approving federal funding for the Second Avenue Subway. But please don't use the same copntractors of the Big Dig in Boston!!
Anyone answering yes to that one can try out for the role of Pinocchio.
Her hubby's nose has been growing for quite awhile now!
Peace Out,
Nick
She will not run for prez in '04,Gore will, in '08 Gore will go for reelection, if Gore wins in'08 the reps will win in'12 and Hill would finally have a GOOD shot in '16 THAT'S A LONG WAY OFF and Senator Clinton knows that she will have to establish a public record and 1 senate term isn't enough. The Reps would do well to watch Hillary, but she's not a near term threat.
She will not run for prez in '04,Gore will, in '08 Gore will go for reelection
Maybe I should move to another country now to save myself the trouble?
Why do we have to repeat the election between Dumb and Much Dumber four years from now?
(Maybe I should move to another country now to save myself the trouble?
Why do we have to repeat the election between Dumb and Much Dumber four years from now? )
You would have preferred Dick Gephardt vs. Trent Lott? I don't know where anyone got the idea that Bush and Gore are so bad.
Gephardt vs. Lott? The Lizard vs. the Potted Plant? Ahhhh!!!
Both of them had the charisma of a urinal cookie. Because of the scandal sheet journalists from Drudge to Certainly Not News (CNN) anyone with any modicum of a brain would never expose themselves to public life these days.
Gore started out with a 63% approval rating ... but he opened his mouth in front of cameras. Whoops. His handlers were so bad that we ended up electing the village idiot. Yahoo. And the "uniter not a divider" has already gone after RU-486 and women as part of his thrashing of Clinton's executive orders. Already he's disenfranchised 51% of the population. Way to go, shrub - the "big tent" is apparently a "menstrual tent" ...
Are you a member of the DNC? Either that or a sore loser. Lighten up and give the guy a chance. I kind of like having a Republican in the White House.
Both of them had the charisma of a urinal cookie. Because of the scandal sheet journalists from Drudge to Certainly Not News (CNN) anyone with any modicum of a brain would never expose themselves to public life these days.
Gore started out with a 63% approval rating ... but he opened his mouth in front of cameras. Whoops. His handlers were so bad that we ended up (hack, kaff!) "electing" the village idiot. Yahoo. And the "uniter not a divider" has already gone after RU-486 and women as part of his thrashing of Clinton's executive orders. Already he's disenfranchised 51% of the population. Way to go, shrub - the "big tent" is apparently a "menstrual tent" ...
/*Many of us were jumping with joy when George W was inaugurated as 43rd President today.*/
i wasn't jumping for joy, but for a variety of reasons, I'm glad it's Bush, not al 'Lets ban the internal combustion engine' Gore.
/* A Republican back in the White House, music to the ears of this Goper, but the joy was somewhat tempered by the knowledge that New York carpetbagged once again by sending hilarious Hillary to the US Senate.*/
I *still* can't elieve people voted for her.
/* One thing for sure, though. I don't think either one is going to be a big fan of rapid transit in New York or elsewhere.*/
Hillary probbly doesn't realize NY has a transit system beyond the subway.
Hell, i've never seen her comming out of anything but an SUV.
There seems to be a growing momentum behind intercity rail now. i don't think Bush is as opposed to it as his brother is.
/*Now I'll admit that I can;t see Dubya riding the subway, but you Demos out there, can you really envision the hilarious one riding on one? Anyone answering yes to that one can try out for the role of Pinocchio. */
Nah, she's a typical liberal. Mass transit for everyone but her. Kinda like they love public education, but send their kids to private school.
It was those narrow minded city people that voted for her overwhelmingly. If Rudy hadn't dropped out, he's our new senator by a landslide.
Ummm ... Lazy-oh was such a putz we voted for her upstate, right here smack dab in the middle of Joe Bruno (the senator who wants rent control dead) land ... Hillary won because her opponent didn't show up and when he did, he tried to beat up a gurl ... way uncool, party dewds ...
Hillary beat Lazy-O in every republican precinct up here that voted for the Shrub. No city folks here ... and I tell ya, she's got enough stones to BE a noo yawker ... I mean after all, compare her to Bella Abzug won't ya?
You GO girl!
Four words:
Hail To The Thief.
Andrew
[Many of us were jumping with joy when George W was inaugurated as 43rd President today.]
Yes, the I.Q. level in the White House has deteriorated once again.
BMTman
At least you will have your boy Billy living not too far away from you. You can get together and play golf or go on an outing for girls together, or whatever. It's always good to look at the positive side of it.
Does anyone know if Amtrak service will be affected tonight by the inagural ball to be held in Union Station?
That reminds me, on the news they said the Clintons would leave by helicopter to Andrews AFB, then fly to JFK by plane. The weather got worse, so they decided to go by motorcade instead of helicopter to Andrews. What I'm wondering is: when is the last time the president used a train? It must have been long before my time (I can barely remember Reagan), but I have seen pictures of old presidents riding in a private rail car with bunting all over it while on campaign.
I may be missing a later instance, but the last I can think of was Richard Nixon, who rode a Metroliner to the Army-Navy Game in Philadelphia once during his term.
Alan Follett
Bush Sr. used one during one of his campaigns... don't remember which one, though. (May have been both, now that I think about it...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bill Clinton rode in the back of a "bridge to the 21st Century" train in 1996.
What I'd like to know is did Bob Dole really say that we should build a bridge to the past?
What I'm wondering is: when is the last time the president used a train?
Didn't Clinton campaign from one during his bid for re-election? I distinctly remember a "21st Century Express" campaign train in the previous (1996) election. Also, I think Bush had a campaign train this time around.
Does anyone know if Amtrak service will be affected tonight by the inagural ball to be held in Union Station?
I'll check it out when I'm at the ball tonight and ... oh, wait, I seem to have misplaced my invitation. Dang.
Do you mean the Main Hall area of Union Station? (I assume that's the section with the beautiful roof design.) It sure seems like a nice place to hold it. But why on a weekend with this weather? Hmmm! That's what we get with the calendar. I was told that only the Archives and the Smithsonian Metro stops would be closed for a while today. :<
I wasn't asking about the subway stop. The question was about the Amtrak trains. I guess you could say the subway stop is a potential threat to security, but I was thinking some nutcase could get off of Amtrak and just walk in and cause trouble.
...some nutcase could get off of Amtrak and just walk in and cause trouble.
Security people were present to keep SubTalkers out of the party.
I got off the phone with BMTMan this afternoon, who said he heard the blast of a diesel horn in the East NY Area. I believe that 6371-75 were being delivered to Linden Yard for movement tonight. 6371-75 as of this writing, has not arrived at East 180th Street, and will probably do so tonight. I will report back with my findings.
In summary: I have missed two deliveries for reasons unbeknownst to me, 6366-70 and 6436-40 are here and should be reflected on Dave's delivery sheet.
Total Cars to Date: R-142s, 6301-55 and 6361-75, 6391-6400, 6406-6445. The grand number is 120 Cars, 4 sets of which can be in service at anytime. Regulars are 6311-20, 6326-35, 6336-45, and 6411-20. 6321-25 and 6346-50 may be next to enter revenue service.
On the R-142A end, we should have 7211-7320, a total of 110 cars. It is not clear what cars are in service now, but i'd guess 7221-7280 should be operating as of now. If someone who's on the 6 can confirm this, let me know.
-Stef
6371-75 were delivered tonight at 2100 hours with the locomotives from last night's delivery. Loco 67,68, and 899, in addition to RD334 took charge.
-Stef
I took the 7 to 74th street and went downstairs to get an F for my first Manhattan bound ride in the 63rd street connector.
The Manhattan bound platform was extremely crowded and an empty R train left the express track going Queens bound (this was around 10am). G.O. stated that R would replace E, and run through 60th street to Broadway. All Queens-bound trains were running express after Roosevelt ave. Finally the F arrives on the express track, it was crowded but I was able to geta seat R46, semi-window covered :-( An R pulled in on the local track.
Some confusion arises when the conductors don't know which train is leaving first. Fortunately, our train does. We ran local, and had an uneventful ride through the connector. I really like the way the 46's look in the 63rd street tunnel. The tunnel really looks modern.
I had to go to WTC and got a CD in Borders Bookstore (somebody got me a gift card for Christmas). I had to wait awhile at W4th for an A or C, since there was no E. The R44 A train was crowded.
Then I just missed a northbound R at Cortlandt, but there was an R32 N right behind. No opportunity for speed on the Bway express, since there were caution lamps placed by trackworkers.
Got off at 34th street for a bite to eat at Flamers in the mall (their days are numbered).
Then an F from 34th. Fortunately this time the F was fairly empty. Another good ride through connector, and this time we ran express after Queensbridge to Roosevelt ave. Pretty quick.
Got the 7 train, and then when we got to 103rd there was a problem. We were held at the station due to a smoke condition at Main street. They had to shut power off in that area. We sat there for 15 minutes (this was around 1:15pm)
When we started moving it appeared several trains discharged at Willets point, there were large amounts of people walking down Roosevelt ave to Flushing. The first train going in the other direction was packed, fortunately I did see a few trains coming out of layup ahead of that packed train.
It was a slow ride to Main street. When we got there, there was no smoke or any evidence of the problem. Perhaps the problem was on the El'.
Again, if anybody lives in the southern California area and can tape radio stations for me, give me an email : jhnwy@spec.net
Must be nice to be in the sun, with 6 to 8 inches of snow on the way tonight. But SoCal doesn't have much to offer railfans, does it?
There was a TA locomotive, L900, sitting at 34th street&6th on the N/B express track, with flat cars behind it.
Yep, it's why northbound Ds ran local. Did you notice how many people were still waiting at the express track?
Didn't see anybody waiting at the express track, but they did look bewildered about the loco.
And there were local trains too!!! First time they were able to pull this off on a weekend in ages. Queensbound, F trains ran express from Queensbridge to 71/Continental while Rs ran local from Queens Plaza to Parsons/Archer. Manhattan bound Rs ran local all the way, while Fs ran express from Continental to Roosevelt. They used the crossover south of Continental instead of the usual one, so confusion at Continental with express and local on the same track.
Several T/Os thought they were supposed to go local and called command when they couldn't select a local line-up. One particularly uninformed crew announced 36st next, and we sat at the Green over Green signal at the end of the connector for 10 minutes until the T/O realized it was not going to change.
And, a punch too far: Any T/Os here notice that the punch at Queensbridge is a tad farther than it should be? One T/O was almost completely out the window while reaching for the button. This was the same guy who sat at the signal for 10 minutes.
White stuff on the way ... are the trains headed for shelter? Is Rudy in the Reichsbunker? Is the Port Authority going to appear in said Reichsbunker on time this time?
Inquiring mines knead to no ...
The TV networks have the inauguration to show this time, unlike Dec. 30-31, when there was nothing else availble, so this snowstorm isn't as important. And if Bush's daughter had dropped the top of her dress any further at the Florida ball tonight, the networks wouldn't even know there was a snowstorm on Sunday :-)
Since we shouldn't be seeing a foot of snow, more on the order of 6 inches, the equipment should be OK.
TV news keeps hyping the storm. If I had listened to them, I wouldn't have been able to go out today. Still waiting for the snow here in northern Nassau. It's icy though.
May get 8 inches here, since snow just loves Sea Cliff. I'll probably need to print more notices (for deliquent snow removal!)
They were running empty Q's down the Brighton Express Sunday Morning. The R40Slants were pretty with all the ice all over them so they were stored out in the yard for sure.
As we speak, equipment is heading underground. To prepare for the snow, The Transit Authority dispatched an alcohol spraying car to spray the 3rd rail and eliminate the buildup of ice, along the West Farms El in the Bronx, this evening. The car could be found in tow with a diesel.
-Stef
I was beginning to get a bit twitchy about that since I hadn't seen anything here about it. Now all we need to know is where Herr Mayor is going to be camping out for the night and whether or not hizzhunny is going to be cuddling up with him so the detectives can go home. :)
And if Hizzoner and Hizzhunny are down in the bunker and Manhattan gets the shakes again AND it happens downtown this time, we'll know the cause of the jelloground the other day too.
An alcohol car ... hmmm ... gotta get one of those for my N gauge layout here ... it'll never get a chance to spray the rails though. No whizzing in the bottle for me if I split a switch on my desktop.
Are you talking about the former Lehigh Valley Railroad Alco C628 that is being restored to its origional Snowbird paint scheeme? Please remember that NYC is not the home for all the birds!!!
At the closing of the skating program on ABC in Boston, they showed a subway train racing by on an El. Those Boston trains are fast!
>At the closing of the skating program on ABC in Boston, they showed >a subway train racing by on an El. Those Boston trains are fast!
Any Idea what coler it was. The el near north station (and the fleet center) is the slow Green line
Couldn't tell what color it was, since this was at night.
The Green Line has light rail vehicles (trolley). Max speed in the subway is 40mph, though only in a few places. Mostly they crawl along at 25mph or less (there are LOTS of timers too!), but they can reach 50 on the Riverside branch.
Believe me, those Boston trains are anything but fast.
The trains on the Red Line get up to 50 MPH between some stops. Not earth-shattering fast, but respectable enough. However, the Green Line is about as slow as a glacier, expecially during rush hours. The other two lines usually fall somewhere in between.
I'm a bit curious as to where the TV segment in question was filmed. Did it appear to be in or near downtown? If so, then it was either the Green Line near North Station/Fleet Center or the Red Line as it approaches the Longfellow Bridge not too far away. (Since it appeared to be going fast, that most likely eliminates the Green Line.) Of course, maybe the TV producers sped up the footage a little, the same way the producers of "E.R." dub in the sound of air brakes on CTA trains. :-)
Both the Blue Line and Orange Line have segments on the surface level, but none on an actual el.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Blue Line has one portion that is an el (around Beachmont Station before and after reconstruction of the Blue Line. Beachmont Station itself is an el station)
Orange Line has one el station still remaining: Malden Center Station. Also an el station for the Commuter Rail (Wedgemere is probably the only other one in the Commmuter Rail system IIRC).
Winchester Center on the Lowell Branch of the MBTA Purple Line is also
on and El.
And while not on an el, Canton Junction (at grade level) is just a
few hundred yards from an awesome viaduct. Amtrak trains cross this
at 80mph!
By "el", I meant a line that runs on a steel el structure such as the els in Chicago, Philly and New York. By that definition, the only "true" el remeaining in Boston is the Green Line near North Station, soon to be demolished. (Certain Red Line segments near the Charles/MGH stop and near Savin Hill could possibly be considered an el, but that's even a bit of a stretch.) Other stops on the T may be above street level, but that really doesn't make them an el by the strict definition of the word.
-- David
Chicago, IL
As one who forecasts for a living (sometimes), I predict someone will now ask, "Why are they tearing it down?" So, here's why!
Is anyone having problems with server response? It seems that lately it is taking me up to one minute to read each message.
I can't get onto subtalk with AOL anymore must use IE
I haven't been able to use AOL for who knows how long. I now connect through AOL but use Netscape to view SubTalk/BusTalk.
I've been having similar problems, both from my puter at work and from home. It seems to be rather intermittent; sometimes the index page and messages load instantaneously, and then suddenly messages take upwards of a full minute or two to load or sometimes don't load at all. And after a few minutes of that, it goes back to normal. I suppose it could be hiccups somewhere in the pipeline between my puter and the SubTalk server, but it happens rather consistently on SubTalk only, and other websites I attempt to access during the "down time" seem to work just fine. (I use Internet Explorer 5.5 with a LAN connection on both computers.)
Not complaining, just offering some possible diagnostic information...
-- David
Chicago, IL
I get the same intermittant load times, and there is no definite pattern. The home page and other parts of ther site load quickly, and on SubTalk the index loads Ok, but indivdual messages sometimes take forever to load. I'm on a dialup conection from Baltimore, but peak time or light time seems to have no bearing on the load times.
This looks like a job for Dave P.
Yup, that's exactly what happens to me. Well at least it is NOT my connection! :-)
Yo Dave! Is the host server for this puppy running on NTee by any chance? (that would explain it)
If the place is extremely popular and really running on a BSD or Linux box, then it would appear that the CGI scripts are eating a lot of CPU time because the conference is that busy. Every time a CGI program has to do something, fetch and index a list plus wait round robin on the "you are here" cookie, I shudder to think of the load the server's getting whanged with. (I do this kinda stuff for a living now)
I note when I go to the standard website, it can be slow ont he takeup as well which suggests some bandwidth limitation for the entire site but the subtalk board (and I presume bustalk as well) is particularly bogged down on its own ... I often have this page lit and while waiting for it to come back at me when I move about, I cruise the pictures on another desktop window ... helps to pass the time.
But no, you're not seeing things - this thing can move along like a D train every now and then. And I note duplicate messages as well from people that are waiting for what they posted the first time to react and apparently hit quit and click it through again because nothing happened. Recording a post seems to be pretty quickly responded to and posted by the system, it's the read function through the CGI stuff that seems to be the killer.
When you guys can afford to host this site at a professional, high capacity web hosting facility let me know.
-Dave
Don't think for a second that any of this is unappreciated. For my own part, was trying to figure out where the bottlenecking might be. But I for one am EXTREMELY grateful that you've done this as is I'm sure everyone else who hangs out here. There's nothing else like this anywhere.
Well, for starters, between my server and the IP address that you posted this messae from, there are *19* router interconnections, belonging to at least 6 different organizations. Any one of these could have been having a problem. Remeber, your dialup IP address is not sitting on the same LAN as my (or any other) web server.
1 207.8.140.1 3.519 ms 6.244 ms 3.003 ms
2 207.106.2.209 60.068 ms 22.807 ms 8.683 ms
3 207.106.127.246 7.862 ms 7.764 ms 20.971 ms
4 207.106.2.18 15.069 ms 60.427 ms 12.620 ms
5 207.106.2.2 12.219 ms 19.518 ms 12.025 ms
6 209.249.119.233 13.357 ms 25.514 ms 15.545 ms
7 208.185.0.150 10.882 ms 10.289 ms 14.865 ms
8 208.185.0.109 42.811 ms 140.770 ms 135.846 ms
9 208.184.233.125 237.966 ms 146.998 ms 143.305 ms
10 208.184.233.133 205.867 ms 217.945 ms 204.829 ms
11 208.185.175.162 221.380 ms 216.491 ms 124.158 ms
12 208.50.172.105 101.850 ms 79.652 ms 167.071 ms
13 208.48.118.121 79.351 ms 113.541 ms 89.691 ms
14 206.132.253.85 77.118 ms 83.178 ms 188.522 ms
15 206.132.253.78 122.849 ms 112.316 ms 92.959 ms
16 206.132.253.106 78.643 ms 79.480 ms 84.452 ms
17 206.165.49.162 93.943 ms 97.238 ms 102.622 ms
18 204.97.132.21 106.445 ms 96.392 ms 89.959 ms
19 208.20.65.82 164.586 ms 176.410 ms 176.046 ms
...........
Have fun debugging problems that appear "slow" when you're that "far" away.
Believe me, I *do* understand ... and as indicated previously, EXTREMELY grateful that you're doing this. One of the things I do while waiting that dulls the edge is having a second browser window open and checking out the web page site while I wait when there is a wait.
Once I found out that you WEREN'T running NTee, I realized it had to do with either heavy CPU usage for something else or really rotten "peering" in the pipeline between hither and yon. After all, I live out here in Amtrak country - getting there anytime is good enough. :)
It's impossible for me to listen to any net radio, maybe it's my service but you probably need DSL to get a clear signal.
My other hobby (tape trading) has cooled, it seems nobody is interested in taping radio stations for trade anymore.
Looking at my most recent attempt, my quest for tapes of radio stations elsehwere in the U.S. will be yet another failure. People just tell me to listen to radio over my computer. Impossible from my PC.
Should I just give up on trading? Go out and get a new PC and DSL?
(show me the money) :-(
Does anybody have problems accessing Subtalk from a digital connection (Cable modem, DSL?)
I remember when I viewed Subtalk in an Optimum Online kiosk at the Wiz, and it was a whiz compared to my setup.
Yes.
Even my school's computers on a T1 have the same random slowness. It seems worse there than on my home 28.8.
I can't understand why it should be slow at all from school, not too many people look at Subtalk (or are able to use school computers) at 1:15 PM anyway. Perhaps another site on k2nesoft is eating up the response time.
Add a second R 36 ML pair to the sticker changing process. I went to Shea today and found the 9554 and 9555 with Corona stickers applied to them. They have been missing for a while. They really scraped the hell out of those pelham stickers. Heres the funny thing only one side of 9555 has Corona stickers while the other side still has Pelhams. Very odd. If I see or hear any more news about more R 36 ML cars coming to the 7 line I ll let you people know.
9550-9551 have Corona Stickers on them too but they're just as big as the Pelham Stickers but in black. No Purple Diamond are on these cars as of yet. They look like they could be used on the 2 line-don't they have those type of stickers on their redbirds? Here's a question for all: Will they ever put those type of stickers on the R142s and R142As? I'd like to see 7215 with Pelham Stickers on them-just like what the R62As have.
Can anyone tell me whether or not the TA is switching cars between the "6" and the "7" trains. On Wednesday, while riding the "6" train, I noticed 40 R36s (4 trains) running in service. They were 9400 and 9500 Flushing cars and 9500 Mainline cars mixed in the same train.
I have a photo of a WF R36 with Corona stickers on the 6. The photo was taken on December 22nd, 2000. I don't know what good that does for your tracking purposes.
I have a picture of #9490 at Brooklyn Bridge, and another picture of #9502 at Whitlock Avenue. Both cars have the black stripe w/ purple diamond, like the picture below.
As reported here on SubTalk, the mosaics at the 65th St station (G) (R) was indeed covered over by a contemporary metal sign with bullets.
The old mosaic said "JAMAICA AND ROCKAWAYS"
My guess is someone in the TA must monitor this board and passed the info down to someone would make a change. The old mosaic has been there for decades forgotten by everyone but us railfans.
I only regret not having to photograph it before being covered.
Bill "Newkirk"
My guess is someone in the TA must monitor this board and passed the info down to someone would make a change.
Hmmmm...
I was walking down Second Avenue the other day, and I noticed there was no subway under that particular street. It would be great if somebody at the TA could, uhhh [cough, cough], get that taken care of.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Uh...Yeah! And did anyone notice that the subways don't make it to Eastern Queens? The F gets cut off at 179th St, of all places! The TA oughta check that out...Ah what's the use?
:-) Andrew
If you were walking along 2nd Ave. between, oh, 99th and 105th or between 110th and 119th Streets, there would have been a completed tunnel section beneath your feet.
Both the 1 (Van Cortlandt Pk) and 2 (E. 241st)
Terminals stop feet short of entering Westchester
County... have we a fear of crossing borders??
Yes ... at one time the transit authority was its own self, a city agency and if it had crossed political subdivisions, it would have come under the purview (and possible control) of "outsiders" ... also funding is often done in urban and suburban categories which are considered separately. Then you had the issue of "keeping the darkies out of our new neighborhoods" where folks across the border didn't WANT a subway bringing the "great unwashed" into their community.
Despite many plans to expand the Washington Heights line (A train) into Riverdale, it never happened. The MTA may be able to do this now that it's one happy star fleet, but I'd bet the same old prejudices still would apply.
No , the new prejudices of ALL THE SEATS ARE TAKEN when the "A" pulls into 207th St from the stations to the North. I've often gazed at a map and at times the reat things when in the area of The "A" and the "1" and "9" and wondered Why the "A" wasn't extended to the El and then to 242nd St. The the El to The Westchester/NYC line. The more efficient use of larger rolling stock. More seating availible on the smaller stock.
Whats wrong with this Picture?
avid
There are actually 2 ways to fix an incorrect sign:
1 - Cover it up
2 - Make it correct
Most of us here would have preferred option 2.
There are actually 2 ways to fix an incorrect sign:
1 - Cover it up
2 - Make it correct
Most of us here would have preferred option 2.
Or 3 - Leave it the hell alone. Wasn't hurtin' nobody. Obviously, it wasn't causing much confusion for tens of years, and was quite a curiosity for those of us who noticed.
Anyway, there's a mosaic sign in the mezzanine of my Queens IND stop which points to a "Jamaica"-bound platform. Now, technically, a regular weekday service train you might board at this station won't take you all the way to Jamaica. You would have to transfer at 71st/Continental, even though the tracks do continue on past Forest Hills, and Jamaica-bound weekend/night E/F trains do stop at this local stop in LIC. I'd call that mosaic a half-truth maybe.
It wasn't even entirely incorrect; to get to the Rockaways, just transfer to the Q53 bus at Slattery Pla-- I mean, Woodhaven Blvd.
Now, we just have to work on those pesky Van Wyck Blvd mosaics! And where the heck's Ely Avenue?? ;)
And where the heck's Ely Avenue?? ;)
Doesn't it intersect with Beebe Avenue. Or was it Washington Avenue? Or maybe Grand? :o)
Someone knows their ancient Queens geography. Ely Ave.(23rd St.) actually does intersect with Beebe, Washington and Grand Aves.
Someone knows their ancient Queens geography.
Mostly from the subway-stop signs at 39th, 36th, & 30th Aves., and from old transit maps. In fact, I am told I really live on "6th Avenue." I'll let you guess what it's called now! Did you know that, if it hasn't disappeared, there's a blue sign tacked onto the side of that "tenement-style" building (now law offices) beside the Astoria Line Broadway stop which reads "3rd Avenue." These days, folks call 3rd Avenue "31st Street." I keep meaning to take a picture of the street sign. I hope it's still there. I'll check on my way home tonite. Come to think of it, I recall a sign on the Upper East Side near, or on a building that's part of, Cornell Medical Center which reads "Avenue A" for York Avenue. That one would be hard to get rid of, since it's carved into the masonry!
Actually, I believe that 31st St. was 2nd Avenue. (Old maps -- and my mother -- confirm this.) First Ave. was 30th St. and the numbers ran east from there. I'm not sure why they started at 30th St. instead of East River, but in the days when the Second Ave. el ran to Astoria, this meant the el ran over 2nd Ave. in both Manhattan and Queens. If you live on "6th Ave." in Astoria, that would be 35th St. (if 30th is First Ave.).
That Avenue A sign is on a public school on York.
You're right, the sign reads "2nd Avenue." I checked it out last night. I'll take a picture ASAP.
I just noticed that my 1994 Hagstroom 5 Borough Atlas and 1998 wall hanging 5 Borough map has 33 St labeled as "(4th Ave)" between 23 & 24 Aves!
That's amazing - that hasn't been its name for over 75 years.
That's one of two segements of Ave. A that has been renamed. The section between 23rd and 25th St. got tagged "Asher Levy Place" after World War II, when Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village were built by Robert Moses and Metropolitan Life over the old Gas House District between 14th and 23rd Sts. Ave. A I beleive originally ran to 28th St. before Bellvue was built, while Ave. B used to run to 21st St., and still makes a brief reappearance uptown as East End Ave.
East End Avenue also has its own numbering that starts at 79th. York Avenue is still numbered as if Avenue A is never interrupted and continues into York. Just like Harlem's 7th and 8th Avenues. Lenox is numbered like the old 6th, before it was extended to the Lower West Side (TriBeCa).
On Jamaica Ave. in Woodhaven, around Forest Parkway but I forget which intersection, back in the 70's there was still a building with a blue sign reading South Ferry Street. Wonder if its still there. Found it interesting as there's no large body of water nearby..maybe they took the name from the real South Ferry. Any historians want to check it out? Interesting that we used to do it European style too., with the street names on the buildings. Be a nightmare if you're driving.,and looking for a street.
Ed,
Any chance that you remember where the old Haven movie theatre was on Jamaica Ave? It was was somewhere in that same general area!
Since you mention it I do, but not from when I lived there. Seem to remember it from the 50's /or 60's riding by on the el. When I was a Bronx kid. Also the Embassy on Fulton..bet. Crescent & Norwood IIRC.
The Embassy was on the southwest corner at the intersection of Fulton and Richmond Streets, two blocks east of Norwood Ave.
The Haven was in Woodhaven, on Jamaica Ave. I just can't remember exactly what intersection the Haven was near, and I have no idea how to find out now.
While attending shows at both the Embassy and the Haven you could distinctly hear the BMT el when the trains went by, in fact it almost seemed as if the theatres vibrated from the train.
A double treat for moviegoers/railfans was the Earl Theater on 161 St in the Bronx, about a block from the stadium. [OK-YANKEE Stadium].
The rumble of the D trains beneath and the sounds of the low-v's going by on the Jerome el..prety constant. You could just about hear the traction motors on the els.
Last night we had dinner at Martin's Cafe here in Livingston, a landmark of sorts that has been part of the old NP depot here for years..and enjoyed the rumble from a freight going by. Tracks are only a few steps from the cafe. An idea for any of you going to Yellowstone Pa-a-h-k. Place is decorated on a RR theme too.
There was an Earl Theatre on Liberty Ave in City Line as well.
It was another movie house where the passing trains were part of the show!
I've heard that BMT subway trains were, and may still be, audible from inside Carnegie Hall. There is a Toscanini recording made in Carnegie Hall (which I have not heard) in 1949 with a very low bass sound at one point - it's actually a subway train.
Did they mention it in the liner notes on the album -- "Mr. Toscanini and the orchestra were accompanied by a BMT Pullman Standard No. 1 line train" :-)
I read about it in a Toscanini anthology. There was a comment along the lines of "The very low bass one hears in the first movement is actually a Seventh Avenue subway train." Heck, the BMT Broadway line goes right by Carnegie Hall; the 57th St. station is directly adjacent to it.
It doesn't say whether it was a train of Triplexes or BMT standards.:-)
I'd love to be able to go to the movies again and hear the el trains going by while watching the film.
I know that the three theatres that I mentioned are long since out of business, and I wonder if there is a surviving movie house somewhere in the city that has an el going by outside.
The "So. Ferry St." sign is still there, on Pop's Restaurant at 86 St & Jamaica Ave. I have a 1909 map, which shows that block of 86 St didn't exist yet; 86 St from Jamaica Avenue (nee Brooklyn and Jamaica Turnpike) north to the park was Bennington St, and another section, from Pitkin Place (probably today's 91 Ave) south to a dead end beyond Water St (around today's 102 Rd), was Park St. However, two blocks east of Park St, running about the same length, was Ferry Avenue, now 84 St. The water wasn't much closer than it is today, maybe around where Conduit Ave is, but there's a Canal St (87 St) as well. And even a Montana St (82 St)!
Nice to know they did Montana the honors that long ago! If it hadn't been for my prior learning experience..such as stops along Liberty such as Hudson, Boyd, Oxford, Greenwood...to my knowledge even in the 50's there were no longer such streets but the station names remained.So when I saw "So. Ferry St." sign I knew the origins of it.Most of the named streets in Queens got numbers.
Your information is appreciated.
There are blue signs that still say "43D AVENUE/FOSTER AV" and "48TH STREET/GOSMAN ST(?)" on a building azt the northwest corner where those two streets meet. There's a 39th Avenue (Middleburg Avenue) two blocks north on 48th Street, and the signs for 48th Street have it also as "Gosman Avenue." Some of those old names just won't die.
There are blue signs that still say "43D AVENUE/FOSTER AV" and "48TH STREET/GOSMAN ST(?)" on a building azt the northwest corner where those two streets meet. There's a 39th Avenue (Middleburg Avenue) two blocks north on 48th Street, and the signs for 48th Street have it also as "Gosman Avenue." Some of those old names just won't die.
Not even, one can transfer to the 53 at all QB stops from Roosevelt to Rego Park. BTW: Rego Park was added to 63 Dr. ages ago, they never worked it into the mosaic. They put above (not covering, just above) some of the mosaics the black on white Rego Park.
Half-Truths are moving towards the area of
L E G E N D S or M Y T H S
Thats what plan II of the IND is beginning to look like.
Dungeons and demonds.
avid
1) At 74th and Broadway on the #7, noticed when looking towards 61st St/Woodside headlights on local and express tracks. The local was just that, but when that passed the train on the express crossed over and used local tracks. This train was not in service, a "dead head" move with conventional R-33/36's with two sets of mainline R-36's in the middle.
Is this a move of mainline equipments to the #7. One number i saw was #9538. I wasn't paying attention until I saw the different window sashes.If main line equipment is coming to the #7, is anything being displaced?
2) Rode R-33 single #9318. Saw those stickers above windows stating that this was an air conditioned car, do not open windows..........cute.
3) At Queensboro Plaza, No (N)'s using 60th St tunnel because of stalled train. (N)'s discharging and running back to Astoria. Anyone hear anything on this?
4) NOW WHERE ARE THOSE R-142's ? Second time in two weeks to see if I could catch a ride on an R-142 on the #2 or 142A on the #6. Waited for numerous trains to pass but no 142's. Maybe with my luck, they were at either Pelham Bay Park or 241st St. The very last time I rode one was back in October when an R-142 was wrapped in Yankee pinstripes and ran on the #4 during the Subway series. So I need to ride some newer ones. How many trainsets are running?
5) NEDICKS IS BACK ? At Penn Station on the LIRR Concourse a few yards from the (A)(C)(E) 8th Ave subway is a food concession that had a sign proclaiming Nedicks Hot Dogs! Before boarding the LIRR, bought a couple @ $1.50 each, they had those unique buns too. Whether or not they were like the originals, I can't tell. Didn't have time to inquire about the Orange Drink, but I saw a dispenser with orange liquid, Jeff Rosen take note!
Bill "Newkirk"
"NOW WHERE ARE THOSE R-142's ?"
Good question! I was looking for them Sunday on the #2, but sadly I did not have much time (less than 30 minutes), and saw none come by.
"The very last time I rode one was back in October when an R-142 was wrapped in Yankee pinstripes and ran on the #4 during the Subway series."
I rode this train on 12/28. It still has the pinstripes on each end, but apparently now not alll the banners are on the side of the cars...but the Mets and Yankees logos are still where the MTA (circle)logo usually is, as far as I know. The interior has no more subway series ads, all paid advertisements now.-Nick
I was at the 1/19 meeting (my first one) and enjoyed Gary's presentation. I wasn't very included to circulate to introduce myself before the program started since so many people packed into the front of the auditorium. I'm curious how many people there were also SubTalkers.
I was there...
-Harry
Thanks for coming to the meeting. I wasn't able to attend due to another obligation, but I'm at most of the meetings. For those who don't know, we meet the third Friday of each month at the College of Insurance on Murray Street in lower Manhattan (David Pirmann posts a synopsis of the meeting notice as soon as he gets it -- Thanks, Dave.). Gary Grahl has done many shows for us, and the quality of his presentations is uniformly excellent. His son Andrew, a premier photographer in his own right, is in charge of arranging for the entertainment each month.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
How do you join the organization? I like trains and railroads better than a fat man likes food.
Write to:
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
PO Box 3001
New York NY 10008-3001
Membership is $30 a year, which provides 12 issues of The Bulletin and admission to the meetings. For an additional $20 a year (plus a one-time $1 initiation fee), one can also join the Division's parent organization, the Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated. The ERA produces a magazine called Headlights that is more global in scope than The Bulletin. ERA's address is:
Electric Railroaders' Association
PO Box 3323
New York NY 10163-3323
If joining both clubs, send the money (check or money order preferred) to either PO Box. Specify that the money goes toward dues for both clubs.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
...inclined to circulate... that is.
Well, if you were the guy with the photo album I was talking to earlier, then it was good meeting up with you Evan (Nice pictures, BTW).
Harry was also there, and I don't know if you met Bill "Newkirk" before, but he was there also, on the "sidelines".
I'm not yet a member, but I do go to the slideshows with topics that interest me. For instance, I went last night mainly to pay respects to Arnold Joseph (moment of silence was given in his honor) and find out who was in charge of his colleciton (a gent was there selling Joseph's merchandise with the knowledge of his estate). But the 'home-movies' of the Red Arrow Cars and the Rockaway Line were something that I enjoyed seeing, although the foreign equipment footage didn't hold my interest.
BMTman
Evan, you were down in NYC? Should have taken a ride down to Nathans with me for some dogs instead. I could show you a train slower than the speed restrictions at the point :-)
My visit to NYC was brief, otherwise I would have tried to get in touch. Frank V. was at the meeting, a former member of NYDERA from circa.1960.
Sorry, I was not the guy with the album. I made a few passes through the crowd at the front of the audutorium then took a seat. I did at least find one of the officers to give my dues payment. If I had known there was going to be a kinda show-n-tell and swap-n-shop thing going on there I could have brought some stuff.
I was there, but left after the NY area (Rockaways) segment. (I'm not as interested in foreign stuff, and had a headache anyway.)
Before I started going online and found this board a few years ago, that was my only place to get the latest info and rumors on subway changes.
I know Peter Dougherty was there hawking his new track book too. :-)
I'm curious how many people there were also SubTalkers.
I was also there--yes, selling my track books but also enjoying a great presentation. I enjoyed the East German films, as well as the Portalnd LRVs in addition to the NYCT and NJT footage. It was nice to see film--even the 8mm variety--again. Slides and video are nice, but film will always be king. This from a man who worked 19 years as a projectionist (grin).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
bill newkirk asked if the r142's were in service, as he did not run into any yesterday... that gave me an idea... perhaps the mta should issue a special 2001 calendar will a picture of an r142 or r142a car on top of each month... railfans could hang the calendars up and be assured of seeing an r142 every day, even if the cars never go into actual service... if i may ask of those in the no
WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THESE CARS???
ARE THEY AFRAID THE CARS WILL GET DIRTY???
From the comments and observations here on SubTalk, I'm beginning to think the TA is babying these cars. Get off it TA, get 'em out on the raod and let them run and run and run 24/7 till they drop! It probably wouldn't be for too many days at a time!
I trully and wholeheartedly agree-you'd figure that at right around a million dollars apiece, that actually consider getting taxpayers money's worth outt them!!! Peace and Love, etc., etc., Thomas
Before the 2 and 3 Bklyn terminal swap in the early 80's('84), what barn was the 3 line cars assigned to?
Im thinking 239St. Any info would be appreciated.......
Train#1996Mike
Well, there's Lenox Yard as always. Livonia Yard was home to the 3, then and now. I think the problem at the time was that the 3 didn't have direct access to any yard, so the trains would always be engaged in deadhead moves. Swap the terminals and you now have the 3 with direct access to the yard instead of the constant deadhead moves. You look at Livonia Yard, and one can find equipment from several lines. The time I rode the Lo-Vs into Livonia (1997), one could find equipment from both the 3 and the 5.
-Stef
This is the exact same reason the N and R switched terminals in Queens in 1987. Before both switches, the line without direct access to a yard (3/R) had some of the most decrepit cars in the system.
Livonia have it all: R26/28/29,R33,R62, and R62a. Well almost all. No R36WF R33WF, R33s, and no R142s.
Since the MTA has announced a victory over this social problem 10 years ago,it looks as though the probleme is slowly creeping back with the scrachitti wave; we have a very nice transit system!
I know I was thinking about this all yesterday, every car I went on the whole day, every piece of glass was covered with scrachitti. It is really a problem you can barely see out of alot of the windows on cars.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" I can't think of a one-liner I'm tired
when are they gonna put mylar on the rest of the Fleet?
yea guys i know its really bad that we have this scratchitti problem, boy oh boy, i think theyshould make those vandals replace those windows and ....Give te damn vandals krylon so they can beautifye damn trains!!!!!!!!!
Mylar won't do any good. If you look close enough, you can see where it's stuck onto the window. Easy to peel off. Plus, so they scratch the mylar, they still have to replace it. And replacing it costs money, both in materiel and man hours. No matter what the TA says, they would only replace it, if it hasn't already been torn off, when the car goes in for inspection. With the need to make service, they have to run the cars, scratched windows or not.
It'll stll be better than nothing.
1 - you can't peel it off with your finger (ever try?) and using a knife would attract attention and take time.
2 - The mylar is much cheaper than glass, though I hear is rather difficult to replace.
3 - You assume vandals are smart enough to realize there's something covering the windows.
Some trains on the 1/9 have the mylar (windows only, not the metal panels).
I have personally seen someone with those covers , someone peeled off part with a switchblade
>>>You assume vandals are smart enough to realize there's something covering the windows.<<<
Remember that MetroCard was supposed to be scam-proof? The hoodlums sure proved the TA wrong on that one huh? Removing Mylar from the windows would be as easy for them as waking up in the afternoon. By the way, when a window is coated with Mylar, it is rather obvious. TOO obvious in fact.
A drunk who passed out and fell between the rails at 3:15 AM Saturday at 170th was uninjured by the first 3 cars of a D that ran over him before the train stopped. He was extricated from under the train, administered oxygen on the platform and taken to the ER, where he finally woke up. Story in Sunday’s Daily News.
After reading the article, I remember there was a similar 12-9 about four years ago or so where someone fell into the drainage part in the middle of the track at 36th in Brooklyn, but that was a much closer call since a northbound "B" train of R40 Slants (since they reported the op motor car # as 4248) going at (thank god) 10 mph came into the station.
In that case, the victim was dizzy and not drunk. She was treated and released. A footnote to this is that the cops who did the rescue played the number (4248) in the Win 4 that night (They did not win, though).
4248 - that's the one with the nose of #4421 stuck on it (involved in its own accident at Dyckman in the 1980s; the T/O died in that one IIRC).
wayne
The post made him look like a friggin hero. One has to be mighty careful when riding the subway whilst drunk. Step 1: Walk away from the large, green globed staircase. Step 2: Call a cab.
Yea, it did make him look like some kind of hero, didn't it? It was in all the papers too. This guy must not be too bright. I mean you would think that most people would be too ashamed to talk to the press, wouldn't you? Not to mention, now all the people he delayed know his name & what he looks like now, his problems may only be beginning. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Sounds like he'll be needing a meeting!
wayne (friend of Bill's)
DDAGTM
I went through Queens Plaza station on Saturday on a Manhattan bound R train, an saw that the interlocking north of the station was being replaced. Plenty of diesels and flat cars in the area. I did not know that the southbound interlocking was being torn up as well. I know that it ws placed only a couple of years ago, so what gives? Was the job done wrong, and now there must be some emergency repairs?
Also, at 34th and Sixth, a diesel was sitting unattended on the northbound express track. Even with the handbrake engaged, what could have stopped some nutjob from attempting to go for a joyride?
Any of you subtalkers who work for the system out there care to enlighten?
Now that you mention it........this is what I was told. Did you notice that there was water in that southbound interlocking? I'm told that inadequate drainage was installed when the switch was replaced. In addition, eventhough the 63rd St. extension was well into the construction stage when that interlocking was replaced a couple of years ago, the wiring was buried. No problem, but somebody had to know that control of that interlocking would eventually be transfered from Queens Plaza Tower to Queensboro Master Tower. So the wiring/cables have to be dug up and rerouted. Of course, TA hourly employees who make errors get suspensions in a minute, but suits who waste money thanks to poor planning do not.
There is also new signaling being put in for the entire interlocking and additonal signals even within Queens Plaza (the track boxes are already in place).
Aren't they putting back the G relay tracks as well?
Correct and on the mark. The little guy alwys gets the royal harpoon.
Correct and on the mark. The little guy always gets the royal harpoon.
If NJ Transit wants to end PCC service in Newark, I have a suggestion; send the trolleys to Atlantic City and revive the old route. I know it may cost a few bucks to lay down rail and hang up overhead, but it may get more touists over there (when they are not gambling their life savings away).
Great idea ... alas, the thinking would be that if people are out riding the cars, they're not INSIDE dropping coin. The casinos would fight it tooth and nail. In Lost Wages, all the sideshows are IN the casinos with slot machines mounted IN the side shows.
Now here's an idea - slot machines *in* the PCC's ... now they'd be in favor. Rolling the dice on your ride is what mass transit is often about.
I think San Francisco has dibs on almost all of the Newark PCCs. As for cars being available for surface runs in Atlantic City, trolley poles have been put on A-division cars in the past...
I thought a NJ politico passed a law that required the PCC's to stay/be used in NJ??
That was a rumor posted here wasn't it?
I hadn't heard that but if the bill didn't also propose building a railway that could use them, I suspect the former plan of letting SF MUNI have first dibs is still the plan. It's not like NJ has a lot of "street" railways to which to move the PCC's.
Forcing them to stay in New Jersey by law is a back door way of dumping them in the Meadowlands.
P.S. I'd love to see them return to the streets, for instance in Jersey City and Hoboken, but they had-and blew that chance when they designed the HBLR around all those NIMBY objections.
I think that it's most likely that they will be going to San Francisco, but I do like your idea and I honestly did think that NJT would have jumped at the golden opportunity presented to them and somehow integrate street running PCC service into the HBLR system.
I'd appreciate it if someone could correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the HBLR equipped with a mechanically enforced speed limit on the street running sections that prevents the streetcars (pardon me, LRVs) from exceeding something rediculously low like 15 mph?
If San Francisco doesn't take the Newark PCCs, they will afford another community the chance to install a small streetcar system like the one set up in Kenosha. Should San Francisco ultimately decide that they aren't going to take the Newark PCCs, it will definately be interesting to see who is on the ball and jumps at the chance to set up a line like the one in Kenosha, which seems to be a proven success.
-Robert A. King
When we were down in the Newark Shops for the ERA fantrip, the NJT host said the cars were designated for a new line in Elizabeth NJ specifically. But since I haven't heard anything industry wize of this happening, who knows how valid that is anymore.
The Muni historic fleet guys know no solid Muni plan to obtain the Newark PCC's. They aren't equipped yet to handle doubling the fleet size yet either. Nor is Muni prepared to pay 1mil a car (the going rate) for rehabbing them like the did the SEPTA cars.
But then where else would they go??
April is approaching very fast.
In that case, I don't see why they can't continue to use them as they presently are in Newark, untill a proper home can be found. After all, they already have been fitted with pantographs, and running them on the 750 volt current for the LRVs doesn't appear to be doing them any harm (as I understand it, the MG set runs VERY FAST and the PCCs themselves go VERY FAST, but that's it) so there really isn't any dire need to actually have them leave Newark to begin with.
About Muni: Why do the Newark PCCs need a rebuild if they go to San Francisco even though they are presently in service? I was under the impression that they were in top notch condition.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Muni is hesitent to acquire them because they are fitted with General Electric equipment, which for them is nonstandard.
What's A-division?
The IRT is A division. BMT/IND is B division.
Oh O.K., because I'm not familair with the NYC subway system. As you can tell, I'm from Philly myself, so it is not often I venture up to New York, but I do venture to Atlantic City, so that is where I got the idea in the first place.
Run overhead wire on the outdoor portion of the Sea Beach, and use them there, and use the subway cars on the N for better service on other Southern Division Lines
Returning to the discussion of Grade Crossing Speed, I did some research regarding federal requirements. According to 49 CFR Chapter II (10/01/92) Section 234.5(c) indicates that a grade crossing warning device must be activated at least 20 seconds prior to the passing of the train. For 100 Miles per hour (114.7 ft/sec.) the activation device must, therefore, be placed 2,934 feet (0.56 miles)away from the crossing. If the train speed were reduced to 80 MPH (117.3 ft./sec.) at the same crossing, having the sensor at the same distance from the crossing would give autos & pedestrians 25 seconds warning. In this case, I stand by the math. Given that most LIRR crossings give 25 seconds of warning, it seems that the LIRR could increase the MAS on the main line and still remain in compliance.
TD... is that warning time measured from the first flash of the light and first ding of the bell, or when the gate is in the fully-lowered position? -TG
From the wording: "Activation failure means the failure of an active highway-rail grade crossing warning system to indicate the approach of a train at least 20 seconds prior to the train's arrival at the crossing.............." I take it to mean from the first light flash or the first sounding of the bell. Anybody have a different opinion?
No it is the first use of the warning device (Bell, Light) not the gate coming done. Not ALL RR Crossings are required to be protected by gates so the rule is for the warning device (Bell,Light). I forget the rule that requires gates in addition to just a warning device. I had a print out one time last year about a grade crossing accident, I'll see if I can find it.
I think it was in regard to # of trains at the crossing. There is also the rule that allows a crossing to be EXEMPT (have an exempt sign posted on the RR Crossing Warning Sign). In NEW YORK STATE this exempts School Buses and Haz Mat Trucks from stopping at (before) the crossing. This was a combination of FRA and State DOT rules and I was research this 1 to 2 years ago.... My mind is mush right now (Monday).
May I also add a hopefully practical observation?
Doesn't the train operator begin the long-long-short-long warning blasts when the train is about 10-15 seconds away? So in case a given motorist wonders whether the lowered gate and flashing lights are just a hoax, there is still some advance warning that it is not.
Also, at many crossings on freight railroads the bells stop ringing when the gate is down. On LIRR crossings I've seen (New Hyde Park, Stewart Manor, Mineola) the bell continues to ring throughout, which is helpful for hard-of sight pedestrians who have their canes out but perhaps not their seeing eye dogs today. Also useful for signal dogs, I would think.
At Rutherford NJ the bell keeps ringing when the gate is down. The problem is the crossing is in the middle of the station. I'm surprised area residents don't complain. I once saw a pedestrian in such a hurry to cross he went under the train (I'd imagine he'd gotten so fed up at every day being stuck at the crossing, and the bell pounding in his ears, the risk didn't seem big). No one noticed. Those trains are pretty high up from the ground.
The FRA rule for train signal for grade crossing (unless overridden by a local law) requires that the last long blast be sounded before the crossing and held through the crossing until the engine is on the other side of the crossing. Kinda hard to do on Rt1 near 440 in NJ hehe... Long crossing.
At that point, NJ440 is I287, and that crossing is exempt. Only saw a train there once in 20 years of passing the area.
-Hank
Teh-kee-yaw gedolaw.
For 100 Miles per hour (114.7 ft/sec.)
I think you made a typo. 100 MPH is 146.7 FPS !!!
It was a typo. I'm pretty sure I used 146.7 in my calculations. but thanks for calling it to my attention.
Us Techies have to stick together !!
Yes we do. But now let me add the monkey in the wrench - so to speak. True, according to the FRA, the warning device has to sound at least 20 seconds before the train crosses the crossing. Simple enough but now consider this. If a LIRR train reaches a block that has a grade crossing, until the gate is DOWN, the engineer gets a zero code on the ASC. Once the gate goes down, the code goes back to MAS. The problem is even with the warning bell ringing and lights flashing, the brakes on the train will be applied when the code drops. The length of that block would logically be greater that the stopping distance at MAS. Given that the gate takes roughly 15 seconds to come down once the signal starts, this would increase our warning time to 35 seconds at MAS and increase our 2934 foot distance for the sensor by 75% or 2200 additional feet, moving the sensor back nearly a mile from the crossing.
I have the projected MDBF numbers for January 2001 through 1/20/01.
By Maintenance Shop
First = 279,625 miles (Concourse Maintenance Shop)
Second = 181,314 miles
Last = 50,081 miles
By Car Class
First = 283,133 miles (R-68)
Second = 183,463 miles
Last = 33,523 miles
By Line
First = 279,229 miles (D Line)
Second = 226,535 miles
Last = 51,337 miles
Of course these are projected numbers based on the first 20 days of this month but you can draw your own conclusions based on the numbers.
BTW: Please do not ask what the other shops, car classes amd lines are.
I know that you're reluctant to provide the information regarding the worst MDBFs, but is it safe to assume that much of the problem is simply one of car age and not necessarily attributable to poor practice at the shops in question (not that poor practice may not contribute, but simply that it is not the major cause)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
okay, let's try this. Are these numbers "classified" or "proprietary"? If not, then are they a matter of public record available from MTA in some scrutable way? Can you suggest a method to access this data?
David, you make it sound like this is a cross-examination & I ain't playing. The question that I chose to respond to (by Subway-Buff) did not require the identification of this month's lesser performing shops, fleets or lines. First, the numbers are very fluid and the ranking can change in a matter of a day or two. The second reason should be obvious to you. Finally, since the MTA is a public entity, this information is likely public domain. Try the TA Public Affairs Office if it's that important.
Train Dude, I think you protest too much. Here in the SF Bay Area, MUNI is very uncooperative when it comres to data. So I suppose I started out with a small chip... Clearly, as you are in mgmt. at one of the shops, it might be unseemly to cite the"unproductive" shop. Conversely, if the data are public, then being reticent only delays the embarrassment of the outfit in question. In much the same way as M1 family cars on MN make a mockery of LIRR 'maintenance' forces, the real question is oe of public policy. What is to be done?
Give TD a break. He has to work with these people and doesn't want to be the source of embarrasment for some of them by naming names.
If all else fails and you really, really, really, reallywant to find out, I suppose you could make an FOIL (NYS Freedom of Information Law) request and then sue if they don't comply, assuming the MTA is subject to FOIL.
Give TD a break. He has to work with these people and doesn't want to be the source of embarrasment for some of them by naming names.
If all else fails and you really, really, really, reallywant to find out, I suppose you could make an FOIL (NYS Freedom of Information Law) request and then sue if they don't comply, assuming the MTA is subject to FOIL.
Is the reason that the maintenance shop and line MDBF are very similar for Concourse because they do all the D line trains? Are all D line and Concourse trains R68s? If so, why would the numbers differ, even by a few hundred? My guess is that a couple of D line trains aren't R68s, or non-R68s are put on the D once in a while.
The D is all R-68, but half are shopped at Coney Island. Also, sometimes R-68As from the B on weekends will run on the D (probably the ones stored at Concourse until the Monday AM rush).
More often then not 68A's aren't on the D during the weekend. I don't see that many 68A's on the D and I ride it daily. But I could be wrong.
Exception is the Yankee's Special put-ins that are 68A's (all the time).
Several reasons. The two main ones are:
One Concourse R-68 is run in B service on weeknights.
Occassionally, they will also use an R-68A for D service on the weekends.
Thanx for providing the numbers TD.
I understand that a man in your position is reluctant to divulge the worst performing unit. But by keeping the location secret, it just makes me want to know it MORE! It's kind of like an itch that you can't scratch. Don't worry TD, I won't ask you to reveal the location, but if I found out the location on my own, would you object if I revealed it? If you would then let me know and I'za keeps me mouf shut. Danke.
First, remember that this month's best shop could be next month's worst. The monthly numbers are that fluid. If you get the numbers - post them if you wish.
The horrible eyesore near the 7 line, between Main street and Willets point, will finally be condemed by the city. There was an article in the Queens Courier, about the city finally acting on plans to finally destroy this third world dump.
Looks like they may finally be starting to clean Flushing up! :-)
Is that the area with the junkyards?
Cause if so, I'll be saddened that some of that go, cause I got some great deals for my old car. But definitely I would want to see that go...and isn't that still technically Corona?
=)
There's a great view of it from the Roosevelt Ave. Bridge. And, yes, it is on the Corona side of the bridge although it is within the general Flushing zip code.
It was recently used for an episode of Third Watch. I love that show, and the game you play with it.
"Name that location!"
-Hank
and isn't that still technically Corona?
Maybe, but it certainly isn't Willet's Point!
I've seen that eyesore from the No. 7 train when I rode it to Flushing a couple of times. I'm sure that many people won't be sorry to see it go.
BMTJeff
Within the last two years either NYC or the MTA sold or leased the rights to the Whitestone LIRR ROW to a brickyard. I would venture that the City will pay much more to recover the property than they received.
That's just horribly wrong, how can the Valley of Ashes be cleaned up?
Are they going to take down the eyes of Doctor T. J. Eckleburg?
>>>Are they going to take down the eyes of Doctor T. J. Eckleburg? <<<
What is that?
Peace,
ANDEE
the great gatsby...
...sorry never read it.
Peace,
ANDEE
The horrible eyesore near the 7 line, between Main street and Willets point, will finally be condemed by the city. There was an article in the Queens Courier, about the city finally acting on plans to finally destroy this third world dump.
You want to see some massive junkyards, ride the LIRR Greenport line as far as Yaphank. The first couple of miles east of Medford station are basically nonstop junkyard.
Does anyone remember the M1s that were dumped there going back a decade?
I remember seeing a scrapped M-1 before Jamaica on the LIRR Babylon branch, somewhere just after St.Albans. Looked burnt out, and covered in graffitti.
More than a decade, the burned hulks of the Experimental M-1 turbine cars , with retracable stairways were laying on the side for a long time before there FINAL demise.
avid
That is the problem with most auto salvage yards. They look disheveled to the untrained eye, but a close look in those shops reveals organization, computer tracking of inventory, and cooperation between what looks like warring factions.
I have repaired and rebuilt several past-their-prime cars with the help of parts from that junkyard, at a fraction of the inflated cost of new parts. And those parts are nearly guaranteed to be OEM and not some cheap, unsafe knockoff from some REAL third-world cesspool.
The people who own and work at those shops are industrious and are serving real needs. Where do you want them to relocate? Jamaica? Hunts Point? Staten Island? Let them disappear? What would you do with that land -- land that smells like a sewer thanks to Flushing Bay; is rattled by aircraft taking off overhead; is in close proximity to Shea Stadium; and can serve on the tax rolls in no other discernable manner?
[Getting off the soap box] Okay, now what is happening with a vast plot of that land abutting the Whitestone Expressway? What will that be used for now? Who owned it previously, and for what?
the best place for a junkyard!!
Okay, now what is happening with a vast plot of that land abutting the Whitestone Expressway? What will that be used for now? Who owned it previously, and for what?
I assume you mean the former Flushing Airport. It closed in 1984 and is now owned by EDC. It's gradually being developed (Shopping centers on 20 Ave, New York Times color printing plant, and College Point Industrial Park), but parts of it are underwater at the moment.
The above-linked article describes a man's dream to turn it into a blimpport, which I sincerely doubt will happen :).
I had this fanciful dream the government would buy it, fix it up, and reroute private planes there, taking stress off LaGuardia.
They closed it because it is too close to La Guardia ... maybe a rail yard for a subway extention to Whitestone ...nah
Mr t__:^)
No, not Flushing Airport. That is too far north, abutting the New York Times printshop and the new multiplex cinemas.
I am talking about what used to be a part of the junkyard complex with huge piles of earth abutting a corrugated metal fence against the southbound Whitestone Expressway before the Roosevelt Avenue Bridge. East of these piles of earth you can see the U-Haul place, Flushing Bay, the northbound, then southbound, sections of the Van Wyck Expressway.
I saw lots of heavy earth-moving equipment doing their thing at this site. What are they preparing it for?
That's where they were scrapping some LIRR car a number of years back. It may just be a construction company.
Mr t__:^)
I remember back in 1996 their were some batch of R36WF on the #4 line coming from the #7 line. Could somebody tell me why were they transfer to the #4 line those R36WF?
P.S was that only a temporarily transfer? After 1996 I have never seen that R36WF on the #4 line.
The 12 cars that went to the # 4 line in 1996 were 9558-9569. The # 4 line needed more GE redbirds? also the 7 needed more Westinghouse cars? So they were sent over sending 9484-9503 from the 6 to the 7 line in 1996. 9484-9503 are Westinghouse. In Jan 1997 the 4 line sent 9558-9569 back to the 7 and the 7 line sent 9484-9503 back to the 6. Aug 1998 the 7 sent the 6 9478-9483. The 6 line sent nothing back to the 7 leaving the 7 line very short handed till about 3 weeks ago......with the arrival of 9536-9539 and 9542-9557.
Does the TA or NYPD have any plans to deal with kids who throw snowballs at trains? I been on many train and buses that were hit by snow and ice in the past. This I would imagine would be a big problem.
Too bad subways dont have bright ditch lights like PATCO and LIRR, MNCRR. Turn those things on and you'll blind anything. Well, at least on PATCO.
The 1970s map at 57/6th is gone. The metal thing that it was on is also gone. The map was outside fare control but onlt visible from within fare control, it was up against the glass partition. This odd positioning is the only reason it survived for so long. On the other side of the metal thing was a normal map.
Also, new platform signs at all the 63st line stops (incl 57th). There are no traces of the B or S anywhere. They say
To Queens | (Q) Weekdays | Other services available eves, nights, and weekends, check service notices.
Does not specifically mention Queensbridge as a terminal like the old one did. Not even under the Q, suggesting maybe an extension of the line at some point before August (temporary, of course). Or at least leaving the door open.
Here's the old sign.
6th ave line signs now indicate the B running to 145 all times except rush hours (to Bedford Pk) and late nights. No mention of weekend Queenbridge services.
"6th ave line signs now indicate the B running to 145 all times except rush hours (to Bedford Pk) and late nights."
(B and C) Something they don't really need? My plan will be to make the C train a rush hour service to Bedford Park like it was previously. The B to 168th Street all the time except nights. And the E to Euclid Avenue (or Lefferts Blvd) non Rush hours.
This will save needed money for other projects.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
the b and c Are BOTH needed for CPW service
What is the Angel's Flight Funicular? It can be seen at
http://nycsubway.org/us/losangeles/angels/
That's an incredibly stupid question.
Obviously it's in Los Angeles, and obviously it is an inclined railway.
That's an incredibly stupid question.
Obviously it's in Los Angeles, and obviously it is an inclined railway.
But what does it do it does not look very long. Why is it there whey was it built?
>That's an incredibly stupid question.
>Obviously it's in Los Angeles, and obviously it is an inclined >railway.
But what does it do it does not look very long. Why is it there whey was it built?
Pretty much like it looks, a funicular railway in Los Angeles.
Built 1901, dismantled 1969, restored 1995-1996. The hill is 315 ft. high with a grade of 33% (not sure how long or how steep the railway itself is, however).
See:
http://www.elevator-world.com/magazine/archive01/9706-001.htm
...and many other sites you can find via Google.
-Dave
For your site, if anyone can grab some shots - the "Duquesne Incline" in Pittsburgh. A GENUINE treat for mass transit freeks. Same kinda deal, though wonderfully quaint and useful. It's a short line, but still a railroad in my book.
And speaking of inclines, there is no treat BETTER than a ride on the Mount Washington Cog Railway in New Hampshire. Steam locos, single BRT like horsecars with the seats on a 33% grade of their own owing to the average grade up to the top of Mount Washington, where it is currently minus 55 degrees fahrenheit. Those of us up here in Albany where it is an UNSEASONABLY balmy 12 degrees (usually -22 to -28 this time of year) look to the weather atop Mount Washington this time of year as a sort of solace.
YOU KNOW YOU'RE FROM UPSTATE NEW YORK WHEN...
You only own three spices - salt, pepper and ketchup
You design your Halloween costumes to fit over a snowsuit
When the mosquitoes have ditch lights
When you have more miles on your snowblower than your car
You have 10 favorite recipes for venison
TrueValue Hardware on any Saturday is busier than the toy stores at Christmas
You live in a house that has no front steps, yet the door is one yard above the ground
You've taken your kids trick-or-treating in a blizzard
Driving is better in the winter because the potholes get filled with snow
You think everyone from the city has an accent
You think sexy lingerie is tube socks and a flannel nightie with only 8 buttons
You owe more money on your snowmobile than your car
The local paper covers national and international headlines on l/4 page, but requires 6 pages for sports
At least twice a year, the kitchen doubles as a meat processing plant
The most effective mosquito repellent is a shotgun
Your snowblower gets stuck on the roof
You think the start of deer hunting season is a national holiday
You head south to go to your cottage
You frequently clean grease off your barbecue so the bears won't prowl on your deck
You know which leaves make good toilet paper
The mayor greets you on the street by your first name
There is only one shopping plaza in town
The major parish fundraiser isn't bingo - its sausage making
You find -20F a little chilly
The trunk of your car doubles as a deep freezer
You attended a formal event in your best clothes, your finest jewelry and your snowmobile boots
You can play road hockey on skates
Shoveling the driveway constitutes a great upper body workout
You know the 4 seasons: Winter, Still Winter, Almost Winter, and Construction.
The municipality buys a Zamboni before a bus
You actually 'get' these jokes, and forward them to all your friends expecting they'll give a rat's ass.
A $400 electric bill is a bargain.
Greetings from upstate ... Moo!
I have some photos of that from a visit out there in '99, along with a few of the Pittsburgh LRV's and the PCC's before they were retired. Never did put them up on the site though. I'll scan them this week if I get the chance.
-dave
I think it'll amuse the city folk ... and that LA incline is so absolutely similar. I only spent a week in Pittsburgh when I worked for a company that required I be trained out there. As a boy born and raised in the chitty, born in Washington Heights in 1951, I gotta tell ya, Pittsburgh in the 70's and 80's was WAY KEWL and it just kept getting better. Once the steel mill coal and precipitate pollution got cleaned up in the late 60's/early 70's, it turned into a MAGNIFICENT alternative to NYC. And I no blaspheme here ... Pittsburgh is a REALLY kewl place if you have a job. And their trolleys were cool too. :)
Tonight on my way home from Manhattan, I was waiting at Times square
In comes An R Of R32's with the last 2 cars , Freshly painted
with spray paint. Looks like the vandals got tired of scratching and started painting.
God, I hope not. Some people don't appreciate how much better things are than in the 1980s. I'd hate to see them slide backward.
Shrub's reached back to the FORD administration for his geezer collection. Anyone remember the "WIN football?" ("Whip Inflation Now") What's even sadder though is that the music in the 1980's was SO much better than now.
My only question at this point is 1980's ... or 1880's? And absolutely, positively nobody's gonna get any for the next four years. And the nookie may be cut off for life if you actually PULLED the elephant lever. :)
Pulled the what?
pulled the elephant lever= (Voted Republican}
Thanks. I should have guessed.
What's even sadder though is that the music in the 1980's was SO much better than now.
What the ??????
Music is subjective but when you say that Dexie's Midnight runner's Come on Eileen or John Paar's St-Elmo's fire is better than Pearl Jam's Even Flow or Dave Matthews' Stay Wasting time I have a problem with your opinion on music.
Stick with the trains.
There were hundreds of songs released in the eighties. You just cited two examples. As for "Come On Eileen", it was played twice at my wedding reception ( of course, my bride's name is Eileen) but I like modern country music better than most '80s tunes it's just like what was marketed as Rock in the '70's (REAL GOOD MUSIC)
Yeah 80s music rules!!
Well music was better back then.
You've got to be joking. It was better if you think Poison was a manly looking band.
Crap man how old is everybody on this post. "Poison" do we really need to bring these idiots back in the public's eye?
The sixties paved the way for what we have as today's music. Neil Young rocks with the band Pearl Jam, Pete Townsend has writen and performed stuff with Eddie Vedder. Dave Matthews has performed with the Rolling Stones and with Santana. Everlast recorded with Carlos Santana as well. The Black Crowes have performed with Jimmy Page. Live, Counting crowes,Creed....
Tell me again that the 80's music was better than today's. "Prefab Sprout", lock the doors; "Quiot Riot", bring it the kids. "Twisted Sister" "Gary Numan""The Buggles"!!
Yeah I stand corrected!
Everybody has their own tastes in music. It is a relative thing.
I also happen to like 80's music better. I grew up with this music. Someone 10 years younger than me will prefer something else. They'll be into hip hop or something like that.
But I respect other's people tastes in music. Not everyone is required to like the same type of music.
Forcing people to like a certain type of music is as useless as them trying to make you like their music.
Live and let live. If someone insults the music you like, then you can disagree. To insult the person and accuse of them of being old is also useless. Everyone gets old. And music will evolve and tastes will wander.
One day, 10 or 20 years from now the young people of the world will like a certain brand of music and will call you old for liking the music that was hip - whether that be rap, alternative, grunge, bubble gum, or anything in between.
Hell, even in today's music, they'll put down or try to make fun of some song or artist from the early 90's. Watching VH1's BEHIND THE MUSIC proves this. I remember when young people were totally into Vanilla Ice or New Kids on the Block. Today they are one big joke. But obviously SOMEONE bought the records because these guys made millions.
It's similar to liking a cetain type of subway car. Someone may accuse the Redbirds of being old and people who like them to be obsolete. One day, the R62's and even the R142's will be considered old. And those of us who will prefer them over the subway cars of 2040 or 2050 will also be considered as old and obsolete as the cars themselves.
besides science, math, death and taxes, everthing else is based on a subjective opinion. Within' that subjective opinion there is still the credibility factor. Vanilla Ice and Poison from the 80's. Pearl Jam and the Dave Matthews band from the 90's. The 90's explored musical styles, while the 80's conformed to making one hit wonders.
For me intergrty and creative minds will always uphold the conformity of todays business oriented society. Maybe Vanilla Ice has sold more than Pearl Jam and Dave Matthews but THEY will continue on giving us credible, thoughfull music that will stand the test of times. Many 60's and 70's acts have done the same, try finding 80's acts besides the Boss and U-2 than can come out of the 80's and still give us music today.
LOL, Marty.
The early 80s had a great explosion of new music, mainly because MTV was so damn desperate for new videos they would put anyone on, evne if they weren't a major star or smoothly packaged by some record company. Having to fill 168 hours of programming a week was a major boost for any band (or their agent) smart enough to do a video at that time.
Unfortunately, that period lasted from 1981 to about the middle of 1984, when everyone got into the music video game and the unknown bands were pushed back into obscurity (Of course, now seeing a video on MTV is about as rare as seeing a California condor in the wild, but that's another story).
(Of course, now seeing a video on MTV is about as rare as seeing a California condor in the wild, but that's another story).
A sign of how far MTV's fallen is the fact that they were showing repeats of their Times Square New Year's Eve celebration several days later.
Video really did "Kill the Radio Star!" great song,real bad video. 1st ever video played on MTV.
If you read my post again, you'd see I was making fun of groups like Poison.
I know, thank god!!
I'll take my innocent 1950's rock and roll and rhythm and blues..still love it after all these years. But to each his own; I still have ten and one 21 year old children. Ouch. At least they keep the volume bearable. The old R&B was great to hear the sounds made by people who sang from the heart with virtually no musical training.
The old R&B was great to hear the sounds made by people who sang from the heart with virtually no musical training.
As opposed to today... hearing noise made by people who sing from the wallet with virtually no musical training.
As opposed to today... hearing noise made by people who sing from the wallet with virtually no musical training.
They are called "Rappers".
And "new country". Of course, to find real country, you have to go back to the fifties and sixties... not much since then (Alabama, Gail Davies, and a few others, but precious little else).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm a fan of 70's r&b myself, and some 80's.
One of my favorite radio stations is 105.1 (Jammin' 105 - "New York's Jammin' Oldies")
The other is 101.9 (Smooth Jazz, CD 101.9) to satisfy my taste for smooth jazz. Grover Washington, Jr (may he rest in peace) is my favorite sax artist. "Mr. Magic", "Winelight", and "Just the Two of Us" are some of his best tunes. I also like Paul Hardcastle and Dancing Fantasy.
As for 70's, I like more individual songs as opposed to groups or people, although I like a lot of Stevie Wonder and Earth Wind and Fire songs
Some of my favorite 70's songs are
I Can't Go For That (Hall & Oats)
Boogie Nights (Heatwave)
Heaven Must Be Missing an Angel (Tavares)
Deja Vu (Dionne Warwick)
and much more
80's -
Most James Ingram and Patty Austin songs
Suddenly (Billy Ocean)
Careless Whisper (George Michael)
O/T, but it is my opinion NYC radio is boring. Too many repetitive oldies, not enough of the rarer 80s stuff. Also no place to turn if you want romantic songs. Only "soft rock" station is WLTW 106.7, which talks alot and is repetitive. Best stations are in the 'burbs. 100.7 WHUD, 92.7 WLIR, 103.9 WFAS, 94.3 The Point are much better than anything you'd hear in NYC. Besides with all NYC radio stations transmitting from one place, the Empire State Bldg, they compress the hell out of the signals which leads to terrible signals and audio quality.
Jammin 105.1 is alright, but too much Motown, I'd like to hear some more 80s funk, like "You dropped the bomb on me" by the Gap Band.
Jammin 105 has too much disco and motown, which I feel is adequately covered by 98.7, 101.1, and 103.5.
As an 80s music fan, I'd much rather see this "forgotten" music as a
format on 105.1 than Jammin, no offense.
As an 80s music fan, I'd much rather see this "forgotten" music as a format on 105.1 than Jammin, no offense.
The only problem with "forgotten" music is that when average listeners hear a song they don't know, they change the station. If people want to hear the same "hits" over and over, that's what a radio station has to do to keep high ratings (read: high advertising revenue). It seems like Jammin' 105 used to play more obscure stuff when they started; listeners probably complained. That's why I rarely listen to the radio; I have my CD player, tape deck, and turntable, and I play what I want to hear, not want the radio station wants me to hear. When I do listen to the radio (almost exclusivelt in the car, since my cassette deck doesn't work), I like WCBS, because they aren't afraid (and can afford) to play non-hits and have DJs who love the music, not just working some dayjob until they can become MTV VJs. The "oldies" station in Providence (which has the same jingles as WCBS, and their flagship DJ is named Bruce, too), rarely gets out of the cliché songs everyone knows by heart. Mostly, though, I listen to WBGO in Newark.
It sounds like you are part of the business. Are you?
Marty.
No, though I read the weather on a jazz show at a small AM station in Cumberland, RI for six months during high school.
This conversation should be taken here:
NY RADIO MESSAGE BOARD
Peace,
ANDEE
Or just end :). But then a lot of threads on this board belong here.
True, thanks for the link 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Or maybe HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
I KNOW that i am going to burn in hell for this. 8-)
I have a LOT of CD's in my collection.
In fact, a lot of the music and songs I like I have yet to year on the radio. They are on CD's that I have purchased either out of curiosity or because they had a couple of songs I already knew.
Yup, I agree. I don't listen to radio as much as I used to, and prefer to make tapes from my CD's. Radio in other parts of the U.S. is more interesting though, particularly southern California with it's Mexican and asian accent.
"The other is 101.9 (Smooth Jazz, CD 101.9) to satisfy my taste for smooth jazz. Grover Washington, Jr (may he rest in peace)
is my favorite sax artist. "Mr. Magic", "Winelight", and "Just the Two of Us" are some of his best tunes. I also like Paul
Hardcastle and Dancing Fantasy. "
CD 101.9 is pretty much the only station in NYC I can bear to listen to.
I thought the policy was: no vandalized trains will run.
If incidents are up, and rolling stock is short, perhaps they don't have much of an option. You can't ABD rush hour ...
Well this may belong on bustalk but going home on the N27 some guy was writing with magic marker all over the seats. Nobody did anything.
LI Buses have a real magic marker problem. Thankfully it washes off, right?
It's a shame we live in a society where people are afraid of "revenge". What I mean by that is, once the damn perpetrator finished serving his (or her) sentence (usually just community work... or public flogging?) people are afraid the perpetrator will spot them in the future, and who knows what might happen.
Why wasn't it visible from the rear view mirror by the bus driver? Outgoing passengers could've notify the bus driver on their way out. It's a damn shame there are lowlives who still defaces subways/buses and rather live in a backward meaningless society. What HAVE they learned from their parents and peers??
ok guys if you use flomaster permaflow, it dont wash off the busses, no way, or acid burn custom markers.
***Im bad, super bad, over bad, all the bad*** -Busy Bee
Yes..... skills that could've been used in earning good salary, are being used in unpaid unproductive positions instead.
oh we get paid, its ok dont worry about G C W
It seems the drivers could care less about the condition of the bus. The floors are full of newspapers, half-eaten food, and gum.
LI Buses are the dirtiest buses I've ever rode (and way worse than the LIRR!)
they are back. as long as the TA keeps up with their zero tolerance on grafitti then there will be no problem. i agree that they stopped scratching. 42nd street shuttle has new windows with virtually no scratches
The 42st shuttle rarely runs with less than half the car full. Any cars going for shuttle duty will get new windows. You can often see ex-shuttle cars on the 3 with mostly no scratches.
I saw some rotten stuff tonight. First, at Canal St/Broadway, a white door had "HA HA Now you got 2 repaint it!!" in black magic marker. I saw a couple of Hippo N trains without a single unscratched window. Then an R-32 N train, the north motor (didn't get the number) had a broken door window, fixed with masking tape. The south motor, #3451, had a piece of bench seat that was blue instead of grey. Following it, on an R-32 R train, #3642 had a shattered door window. It's only been two days since the country went to pot, and it's already this bad :(
Unscratched windows on the hippos are hard to find (I found 2 such today, B and D, both under the rollsigns and both had minimal tagging on half the window, but not the half I was at). They should replace that metal paneling with R-46 panels, make ém look better. The R-32 with the blue seats I reported on a while back, thought it was a cool anachronism. Jamaica R-32s are suceptible to shattered storm windows for some reason, 3730 had one rather recently and I've seen it on a few others rather recently as well. Jamaica crowd thinks they're pretty tough. The 'Ha Ha' tag is seen by many, but in direct defiance of the taggers' taunt they have not repainted since I first saw it the first week of January...
Ah well, not all of the 'youth' is bad. I saw a few kids my age today having a civilized conversation about the various conductor personalities they've encountered on the Q (singing, overly happy, overly depressed, etc). At one point they commented on a few thug-type kids younger than them who had been walking through the first 4 cars back and forth from Dekalb to around Kings Highway. (What, they think they're tough or something? Trying to look like they have business here?).
I know not all kids are bad; I was one myself fairly recently :). I also live a stone's throw (pun not intended until I realized it could be a pun) from Jamaica yard and it isn't a tough area at all. Maybe there's some natural explanation for it, like chunks of concrete falling off the Van Wyck Expressway...
I though the Ha Ha tag looked fairly fresh; now knowing it's been there awhile, I'm half afraid that the zero-tolerance policy has gone out the window, and half happy that the TA is so defiant that they're not giving that vandal the satisfaction :).
Also the shiny interior of the Hippos is an invitation to scratchitti.
I like the interior of the R44s and R46's much better. Just another reason why I can't stand those R68 Hippos.
From Monday's Times Metro Briefs:
TRENTON: REFUNDS FOR STALLED PASSENGERS New Jersey Transit has agreed to refund thousands of passengers who missed theater performances and other events because of delays on the Northeast Corridor line last month. Jeff Warsh, the agency's executive director, said at least 200 checks have been mailed, totaling about $25,000. Conductors had asked riders to submit receipts for refunds for unused theater tickets, alternate travel costs and related expenses. New Jersey Transit and Amtrak trains were delayed for hours on Dec. 23 because of a fallen power line. (AP)
that is a start. NJT should give credits for monthly riders whio can produce a monthly rticket for January for their poor performance during 1/01. Metro North and LIRR did just that in 1996.
I have just e-mailed them a request that they do the same that Metro North and LIRR did in 1996-- give partial refunds to loyal riders for their poor service every day this year!
I told them that if I had a vendor contract with them (And I do not)and performed as pporly as NJT did, nmy contract would be terminated. I told them, if I worked for NJT (and I do not)I would be fired for attendance as poor as their on-time performance.
I will keep subtalkers informed as to any response.
as expected they said "No". I also e-mailed thew star-ledger and NJ-ARP.
Why would only commuter rail customers be entitled to this? This sounds like a huge can of worms to be opened.
I take the PATH in every day, and often it is late, and thus I am late. Shouldn't I be entitled to a refund as well?
Not three hours late.
The potential delays increase with the distances involved. Airlines don't give refunds for delayed flights, nor subways for delayed service. Nor should commuter rail be treated any differently.
All I'm saying is "CRY ME A RIVER" for people who insist on living far away from their jobs and then blame the only thing that gets them there in any sort of comfortable way if something goes wrong. Call it an act of God or something, but things happen beyond the control of ordinary transit systems, and them's the breaks.
Next thing you know someone will sue them for missing an important business meeting.
NYCT gives out block tickets which are a free ride. If there is a break in LIRR or Metro North within NYC they'll let them ride the subway for free.
I can understand some delays- but every day, every train and1-2-3 HOURS! come on! Airlines are not railroads. The Northeast US is a busy population center and we do get snow. They ran better in 1996 than in 2001.
I e-mailed a letter to the editor of the Star Ledger suggesting they start a campaign for partial credit. The media forced LIRR and Metro North to do that in 1996.
If NJT can give concert refunds why cant they be nice to their loyal core ridership=-- monthly pass holders. If they can put bigh NJT Sings on parking garages they can afford partial credits.
I write code all night and one of the amenities of the company I work for (aside from the N gauge trainset in my office and a company bar just up the hall) is a 249 channel in house cable system fed by satellite by DirecTV. (our local cable operator is AOL/TimeWeenie and we'll have no part of that) At around 5am, had to stop for a minute and watch a show on the History channel, "Trains Unlimited" - the episode was about the history of locomotives from steam to mighty diesel - everything from the Bull steamer all the way to the SD-90MAC (6000 HP) ... I've operated SD-80MACs on Gonerail and they are NICE toys that I know well enough to have a cert for, considered the Cadillac of the fleet.
But one thing really caught my attention (I work while watching with short pauses if there's something interesting) was footage of this insane design the New York Central did somewhere in the 50's where they took a Budd RDC car and mounted one of those double jet engine jobs you see on B-52 bombers right on top in the front where the twin airhorns normally would be. They also welded on a rounded front on the RDC reminiscent of the Zephyr (the diesel, not the BMT car) to "streamline" it a bit ... made every bit of noise you would expect from a train with a jet engine mounted on top.
Look REALLY strange though, an RDC with a twin jet engine on it and supposedly in testing, this bad boy did 184 miles per hour which remains the record top speed of a train in the US ... damned strangest thing I ever saw ... sure would hate to have to try to stop that thing though. Every motorman has no problem bringing a train up to cruising speed but stopping a train is something we all worry about until it actually does of course.
Has anybody else seen this thing? Does it still exist somewhere? Gives new meaning to "air train" ... damned strange. Rocket powered trains. Now THERE'S an idea. Heh.
Yea, I've seen that thing too. Pretty bizzare. I think there might be a picture of it somewhere on this site. Or, someone posted one recently.
Peace,
ANDEE
Went and looked, didn't see it here among the NYCentral sections. For what it's worth, we've got NYC GE S-1 electric locomotive number 100 laid up here on a siding a few miles away from here. It's owned by the Mohawk Valley Chapter of the NHRA if anyone cares - here's the description of it - got a tour of it a couple of months ago when a friend was curious if I knew how to repair the controller on it. I guess folks don't know how to use wire brushes anymore.
It's parked at the Niagara Mohawk Albany Steam Plant siding right now and the chapter needs to move it now that PSE&G bought the power plant (this plant USED TO make power to ship down to NYC) ... a real beauty though rusting badly since it's not in a car barn. Here's the descrip from the society on it:
NEW YORK CENTRAL #100 S-1 Electric Locomotive -- This prototype electric locomotive was built cooperatively by Alco and GE in 1904 for the New York Central's passenger service between Harmon and Grand Central Terminal. This prototype electric locomotive was previously numbered 6000. Only two others of the S-1 class survive, #100 being especially significant since it is the prototype.
I'd betcha Big Ed has been in this one too ... same vintage as the IRT ... and the ohmmeter says it will run ... it's third rail shoes only though and small enough to fit in the IRT tunnels ... though barely.
I thought #100 (other than 6000 it had about 4 other numbers over its life) had been donated to the St. Louis Museum of Transportation.
Nope ... it's still here ... but it would make sense that the group would want to move it - if it sits out in the acid rain much longer, it's going to be tunnel quality steel dust. ALL of the cars are in bad shape (much like the nearest museum to me, the Kingston Trolley Museum which has a pathetic looking LowV and an even worse looking R4) ... the condition of these poor battered trains causes me deep envy for Shore Line and the museums that have folks that can help to rehabilitate these treasures - my heart breaks because I don't have the time and nobody else seems interested. Saddest of all, is that New York State will allow third rail, but it has to be completely and securely fenced ... but at least HERE, a NYC subway consist could operate the way it was MEANT to live, from a pickup shoe. Sorry guys, but subway trains do NOT run from a catenary wire, rules or no rules.
I wish I had money or time to contribute to help resurrect the local babies or even those in distant places ... if only the "software business" actually paid what its legends claim. But it's a damned shame what's befallen our fallen brethren of the steel wheel.
Wow ... I think I'm going to incorporate a new cult - "The Brother and Sisterhood of the Steel Wheel. BING-BONG!" :)
New York State will allow third rail, but it has to be completely and securely fenced ...
That's really surprising. LIRR has 3rd rail at grade crossings in LIC and not a fence around. Good thing there are no little kids living near by. Every time I walk by there, I think of fried street urchin.
For a time many MNRR (NYC) stations in electrified territory had low platforms. What, did people get stupider or less responsible? The last legacy of this is on the ACMU-1100s, electrics with trapdoors for low platform stations.
Maybe that rule has to do with new "territory" ... I actually checked into it once and my guess is that it applies to museum situations or such. Liability law being a bit different these days I suppose ...
The engines were from a B-47 bomber.
Heh. As Groucho woulda said, "that's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of" ... I was just sitting here slackjawed after seeing that saying to myself, "an Atlas rocket" ... and ... "if Superman had a nosecone" in my very best Jerry Seinfeld improv voice ... I can see it now though, exhaust flames roasting and toasting the geese. Every motorman and conductor's FANTASY!
Oh, come on. Surely, you know the difference between a jet and a rocket.
Anyway, what's the difference between what you describe and the current crop of turbo trains (except that the engine is within the car body and drives a generator instead of providing thrust for propulsion)?
What crop of turbo trains? :)
The NY state turbos are probbably the only ones in N america, and one of the few in the world.
On the NYC's RDC, they used the jet exhaust to just push the train long. on the turboliners, the jet is just a "gas generator", which then drives a power turbine that turns the wheels via a transmission. Neither method is efficient.
It's not a gas generator. Its like a turbo prop. A gas turbine has a compressor fan that spins and forces air into a combustion chamber. The resulting hot gases spin a rear fan that turns the front conpressor fan. If you put no other load on the fans the gas exaust will be forceful enough to propel you along. If you attach a load to the fan shaft the gas will use most of its energy in escaping and transfer it to the load via the shaft. In aircraft and ships its a large propeller, in power generation facilities and locomotives its an electric generator.
/*It's not a gas generator.*/
That was the term we used at Pratt for the compressor/combustor/turbine section. Partly because in a turboprop, or turbo shaft, that's all it does - make lots of hot air. It has no link to the output shaft at all.
/*If you put no other load on the fans the gas exaust will be forceful enough to propel you along.*/
Actually, early turbojets tended to funnel the exhaust through a convergent duct, to increase the velocity of the outflowing gasses.
/* If you attach a load to the fan shaft the gas will use most of its energy in escaping and transfer it to the load via the shaft.*/
No. In almost all turboshaft and turboprop engines, the gas generator turbine and the power turbine are sepperate. This allows the output shaft to run at a slower speed than the engine itself. Otherwise, every time you wanted to stop the shaft, you'd have to stop the engine. Sometimes, a "booster" (I think that's actually GE's term for it) compressor would also be powered off the power turbine's shaft. Thus, you'd get more power as it speeded up.
Basically, it's a multistage compressor, a combustor, a gas generator turbine driving the compressor (often single stage), then a power turbine driving the output shaft (can be multistage). Then the exhaust goes somewhere :)
The big problem with gas turbines in rail use is their totaly lack of effcientcy. The other problem is high exhaust temperature (hundreds of degrees), and volume (many pounds of air per *second*). Not to mention FOD issues, maintenance issues, the danger of one blowing up....
/*In aircraft and ships its a large propeller, in power generation facilities and locomotives its an electric generator.*/
Yes. A turbofan engine is effectively a single spool turbojet driving a booster section and a giant fan. The better the bypass ratio, the better the efficiency. I believe the PW4000 series is all basically the same core with different fans. I saw one down in Middletown. They're *huge* .
At low speeds. The efficency of a gas-turbine engine increases as speed increases.
-Hank
1966--amix of ZPR puffery and actual experimentation. erlman of NYC arranged for the modification and demonstration run with full press coverage. There is fairly complete coverage in the two books on RDC's--both excellent. Trains Magazine has also done articles.
Indeed the car is the lineal antecedent of the United TurboTrain and the subsequent Rohr sets.
The RDC with the funny ends was called the Hot Rod RDC & officially know as the Roger Williams. It was one of the NH's experiments & I believe is alive & well at the Danbury museum. I Don't know if the NYC one with the jets on the top had a special name.
Mr t__:^)
The NH "Roger Williams" and the jet-powered RDC on the NYC were two different animals.
The RDC on the New York Central was the M497. That experiment took place in 1966, I believe, near Alliance, Ohio. The M497 was modified with a rounded front end -- the windows for the crew were actualyl EMD F-7A number board "boxes"!!! After the experiment, the end piece was removed, and the M497 returned to regular service and lasted until Penn Central days (it may have even gone on to Amtrak, I am not sure).
The "Roger Williams" wasn't quite a standard RDC. It had a completely different body. It sat lower, and there were two end (control) units, and four mid-train non-control trailer units. If they were coupled to a regular RDC (which NH did in later years in Boston commuter service) you could see the body differences.
Steve, Thanks for the additional detail. The book I just bought has two shots of the Hot Rod RDC in 1958 in NYC to Boston service. It appears to show two Hot Rods with 3 or 4 RDC-1 in the middle. If the units in the middle are trailers, they at least have diesel units in the roof ... if correct was that roof unit only for heat & elect., i.e. a kind of power pack ? The caption says that after only a couple of months these units were transfered to Boston commuter service.
Mr t__:^)
The roof hump only contains radiator equipment. The RDC engines are located right behind each truck. Heat is supplied by running hot coolant through radiators in the passenger compartment. If the RDC was a trailer it is unlikley that an engine would be mounted in the hump for both weight and noise considerations.
Just goes to show you how much there is to learn on this site, as I had always ASSUMED that the engines were in the roof. So, I guess they route the exhaust up the side to come out on top ?
Mr t__:^)
The exhaust is routed up through large internal bulkheads near (but not exactly at) the center of the car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For anyone who's ever been in an RDC, the exhaust bulkheads form a sort of "doorway" in the middle of the car on both sides of the wall about a foot square on the sides. They help to make extra "bus noise" inside the car for that extra dose, along with the exhaust that would always go into the second car while moving. I guess that was why the southbound car was the "smoking car." :)
The NY Central RR installed little sheet metal deflectors to prevent your described effect.
Heh. Musta rotted out on the "Poughkeepsie bus" back when they were running it. The tail car would often get "extra lovin' from the oven" that would cause most of the smokers to do without until they got to their stop. I shudder to think of the "quick cooked in dragon fire" aspects had they had those jet engines on top. (grin)
Don't feel bad. When my family and I first moved to East Islip in late 1959 (I was 8 years old then), we took the train home one night from NYC. Had to transfer at Jamaica, and the train to Patchogue that night was LIRR's pair of RDC's (which I didn't know existed until that night). (On Fridays, they'd go into Jamaica, work Oyster Bay runs on weekends, and then on Sunday night go back out to Babylon/Patchogue to do the shuttles during the week.) Being that young age, and having seen a lot of "streamliners" in books, etc., I asked my Dad if we could ride upstairs the next time!!! I actually thought those were the vista-dones!!! Once I saw the RDC's in daylight shortly thereafter I realized they weren't domes. Having grown up in the Bronx next to the NYC/NH, I thought the entire passenger world on railroads consisted of either subway cars, m.u. cars, or loco hauled stuff. Now a passenger car that could move itself without third rail really intrigued me.
If you look at a side shot of an RDC you'll see a solid metal box right behind 1 truck (the engines are on opposite sides of the car. They are propelled by 2 GM 6 cyl. inline diesels. The engines are mounted on their sides and they are connected to a torque converter that hooks into a cardan shaft that drives the axles. If you look carefully you can see the shaft. Each engine produces about 250hp.
Thanks Mike for the additional detail.
Mr t__:^)
The Roger Williams intermediate units had no cabs but were fully powered. Additionally, they were mounted somewhat lower to the railhead than conventional RDCs and had different trucks and gearing. These intermediate cars were similar to the RDC-9 units built for the B&M, although the RDC-9s had conventional trucks, height, and gearing, and also had only one engine per car (normal cabbed RDCs and the Roger Williams intermediate units had two).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The mid-train "Roger Williams" units (NH 160-163) were the same two-engined RDC car but without the controls or end streamlining as the NH 140-141.
The hump on the roof of ALL the RDC's, regardless of model, housed the engine radiators, the bell, etc. exhaust stacks.
There was a thread on this subject a while back in which I posted a fairly complete history of this car... suffice it to say that the RDC was re-converted to a conventional RDC and served out its days as a Beeliner, eventually entering the dead line at Croton-Harmon.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry I missed it, bro ... wasn't around here at the time. Does make you wonder what they were thinking at the time though.
A JET PROPELLED R-68 !!.............that would be amusing !
Bill "Newkirk"
ATTENTION SUBTALKERS:
The MTA will hold a public hearing on a plan to begin new subway service when the 63rd Street Connection opens for full operation in late August 2001.
The 63rd Street Connection to the Queens Boulevard Line is being built to reduce overcrowding on the "E" and "F" trains. The recommended service plan will use the new track connection to increase the amount of rush-hour service from the Queens Boulevard Line into Manhattan by more than 20%. Over 400,000 customers will benefit from a faster, less crowded ride into and out of Manhattan each day.
Recommended Service Plan
_ "F" train service would shift from the 53rd Street Line to the 63rd Street Line, using the new 63rd Street Connection. "F" service would continue to operate along the Queens Boulevard Express Line between Jamaica-179th Street and Coney Island.
_ The plan would also include a new local "V" train subway service, which would operate to and from Forest Hills-71st Avenue along the Queens Boulevard Local, 53rd Street and 6th Avenue Lines to and from the Lower East Side-2nd Avenue Station.
_ "E" and "R" train service would remain unchanged.
_ The plan would shift the northern terminus of the "G" Line from Forest Hills-71st Avenue to the Court Square Station in Long Island City at all times. Under this plan, "G" riders to and from Manhattan or Queens would now transfer at Court Square to and from the "E" and "V" trains via a connecting passageway to the 23rd Street-Ely Avenue Station, or they can use a new MetroCard walking transfer between the "G" at Court Square and Court House Square Station on the #7 Line.
Date and place of the hearing:
Tuesday, January 23, 2001
Starting at 6 p.m.
Long Island City High School
14-30 Broadway
Long Island City, Queens
You may register to speak until 7 p.m. on the day of the hearing.
For more information, or to register to speak, contact:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director,
MTA Government and Community Relations
347 Madison Avenue, New York, NY 10017
Telephone: (212) 878-7483. www.mta.nyc.ny.us
This location is accessible to the mobility-impaired.
Interpreter services will be provided for the hearing-impaired.
It sounds like they could have accomplished this much more quickly by taking down the Astoria EL instead of building the new tunnel.
(It sounds like they could have accomplished this much more quickly by taking down the Astoria EL instead of building the new tunnel.)
It's far too late to bring this up, but you raise an interesting point. The QB line is already connected to two tunnels -- 60th Street and 53rd Street -- but can only use 1/2 the capacity of 60th Street because of the need to accomodate the Astoria Line.
The need to keep the QB line running during construction vastly inflated the cost of the new connection. I wonder if, for the same money, the MTA could have replaced the Astoria El with a four track subway, with the local tracks serving as an extension of the G and the express tracks rolling onto Manhattan via the 63rd St tunnel?
In that case, all QB expresses would have continued to use the 53rd St tunnel, and all QB locals (including the new V train) would have used the 60th Street tunnel. All Astoria subway trains would have used the 63rd St tunnel, and the extension to LaGuardia could have been a subway because Astoria line would already be underground. All the mergers and demergers of trains would have been eliminated.
Your plan is certainly not unreasonable. You are absolutely correct about the effect of Queens Blvd service on Connector construction costs (that is also why it took over six years.
However, in turn, your idea would have involved demolishion costs for the elevated line; instituting more frequent bus services to replace a suspended Astoria Service while the new line is prepared in the final stages of construction; and higher costs related to environmental mitigation and neighborhood improvements (needed to secure local govt and community board cooperation).
So it would not have been cheaper, nor necessarily faster; and its start point would have been later than the Connector's. And the fact that the Connector hooks up both Broadway and 6th Av argues in favor of using all of its capacity. But it certainly would have been a worthy project and would have benefitted the community.
Larry:
If Vallone gets elected mayor you might want to still sent that proposal over to him in an effort to solve his Astoria-LaGuardia Airport dispute.
The 63rd St. tunnel still has available capacity to run the N train through with the F (or V), while the people along 31st and in Astoria will make sure Vallone blocks any aboveground extension of the N to LGA. Of course, there would be NIMBYs against a subway as well, but it might silence some of the "We want a subway, not a new el" crowd.
The only two negatives are the four track line would be impratical if you use 63rd for both Astoria and QB service, though a three-track rush hour service likely would work; and you would lose the connection to the BMT from the IRT at Queensboro Plaza, let alone any connection at all between the Flushing Line and the rest of the system, unless you extended the Q (once back on Broadway) to QP and made that the terminal station, while tearing down the rest of the Astoria el.
(If Vallone gets elected mayor you might want to still sent that proposal over to him in an effort to solve his Astoria-LaGuardia Airport dispute.)
I wouldn't advocate re-doing that project, rather than doing a new project elsewhere. As I said, it's really too late.
The real alternative would be for the Port Authority to extend the Airtrain on to LaGuardia, as originally planned, then over the Grand Central and BQE and into the Sunnyside Yard, to a terminal at Queens Plaza with connections to all the subways and the LIRR to GCT and Penn.
I spoke with a PA person at a party recently, and they don't like the one seat ride with a big trainset. They prefer an airport only ride on a frequent, small transet ie. the Airtrain with a series of connections. I don't really agree. But the PA promised a system that went from JFK to LaGuardia and beyond when they imposed the PFC, and now they have reneged. If they were to build it and charge a reasonable fare, and if Vallone blocked the one-seat ride, I could live with the two-seat ride.
The Port Authority didn't "renege;" but they did realize that their original proposal was too expensive to carry out with current (mid-1990's) capital budgets. So they built what they could with available money. A little embarrassing, yes.
Your idea to extend AirTrain to LaGuardia is quite feasible, but would depend on the PA capital plan and competing projects: continuing construction at the airports; a proposed PATH extension to the NEC Newark Airport transfer station (a concept that is being studied now and which I, for one, strongly support, since it has an available ROW all the way to Newark).
Still, the fare and toll increases proposed would augment the capital budget and allow work on La Guardia service to move ahead. Vallone can be persuaded to support it - with the right plan.
The future of mass transit in Queens may be different if Vallone is never mayor.
(The Port Authority didn't "renege;" but they did realize that their original proposal was too expensive to carry out with current
(mid-1990's) capital budgets. So they built what they could with available money. A little embarrassing, yes.)
Will you stop defending the indefensible? The early 1990s recession hit the whole region hard. The MTA raised tolls to $7.00 round trip and fares to $1.50. And the Port Authority cancelled the airport access plan. They have made BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN PROFITS at JFK and LaGuardia, and these have been used to cover the deficits in cross-harbor transportation, deficits that DID NOT EXIST before the Port Authority decidied to push the cost of the recession on New York.
If the Port Authority had raised fares and tolls as the MTA did, they could have built the complete airport access system. And they could build it now, if they wanted to. Instead, they want to pay for rail tunnel to New Jersey.
The early 1990s recession hit the whole region hard. The MTA raised tolls to $7.00 round trip and fares to $1.50. And the Port Authority cancelled the airport access plan. They have made BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN PROFITS at JFK and LaGuardia, and these have been used to cover the deficits in cross-harbor transportation, deficits that DID NOT EXIST before the Port Authority decidied to push the cost of the recession on New York.
How in the world did the Port Authority "push the cost of the recession" onto New York???
As far as the deficits in cross-harbor transportation are concerned, if you're referring to PATH, it was operating at a substantial deficit long before the recession. It probably hadn't turned a profit since the 1950's, or even earlier.
Instead, they want to pay for rail tunnel to New Jersey.
Why do you oppose rail tunnels to NJ?
Yet Another "V" Train Link,.
"A New Way Heres a look at possible subway changes under a proposal for a new V Train: V TRAIN: This new line will make local stops by the G train from 71st Ave. / Forest Hills, enter Manhattan through the 53rd St. rail tunnel, and make stops on the Sixth Ave. and Houston St. in the Lower East Side."
"G TRAIN: Loses 13 of its stops, running from Smith / 9th Street in Brooklyn to Court Square in Long Island City, instead of to 71st Ave. / Forest Hills. From there, straphangers can transfer to the V and E locals. (Emphasis added)
Yet another V train article with poor English and wrong information. I can see the outpouring of complaints at the TA making the E run local already.
The article in the actual paper my noit have the dropped words and garbled text, although the mistaken routes will still be there.
-Hank
The article in the actual paper my noit have the dropped words and garbled text, although the mistaken routes will still be there.
-Hank
The article in the actual paper my noit have the dropped words and garbled text, although the mistaken routes will still be there.
-Hank
It is an accepted fact that Newsday is not a fan of anything NYC related. They refuse to acknowledge what they are - a rural newspaper (one of the reasons that NY Newsday was a flop).
Accepted by whom? Newsday is a New York City newspaper wannabe, also as evidenced by the fact that they tried so hard to be "New York Newsday."
They are way more liberal and city oriented than their Long Island readership, and have been for as long as I can remember, which is about 30 years.
OK so I should have said " It is a known fact" instead of accepted.
In any event they always put down anything to do with NYC.
Yet another "V" train link in Tuesday's Daily News.
Sorry about the duplication; this is the story that SUBWAYSURF posted in message 188162.
The snapshots from the Roosevelt Ave (IND Second System) station are now available.
The lighting in there was pretty poor, as will be noted when you look at the snapshots. But it's "bright" enough to make everything out. Also, the video from which these were pulled shows everything even better than can be seen here. Anyway, enjoy them!
(I guess I should have made them even brighter than I already did ... my monitor at home must be a pretty good one :)
--Mark
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat stuff!
Thanks for sharing.
avid
A most valuable addition to this website. Excellent!
Thanks so much. Your post goes very far to answer my long-standing questions about this station.
I think now Peter really does have to add this platform to his next tracks book.....
I think now Peter really does have to add this platform to his next tracks book.....
Actually, Mitch, it's already in the latest edition! Version 2.4b, currently on sale through the Tranist Museum and through the Boston Street Railway Ass'n (and directly from me) shows this station and the connecting trackways in some detail. After this prominent thread on SubTalk I decided to add it, as it is rather significant.
IF I am ever able to get legal access to this station with a camera, I will certainly post pictures here and in subsequent editions of the book.
BTW: Thanks for posting the pics, Mark!! Greatly appreciated
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Cool! Thanks Peter. Should've known you'd be up on the latest developments....
I will p/u a copy of the new book ASAP...good job!
Great photos, Mark!! One question though; where did u enter to begin the tour of the second IND? I would imagine there is a lock on the door. :-) -Nick
Actually, there isn't. If there is it's always unlocked.
"Actually, there isn't. If there is it's always unlocked."
Really? Where do you enter the second IND, and can you do so w/o getting arrested for tresspassing? -Nick
can you do so w/o getting arrested for trespassing?
I wouldn't chance it, particularly since one of the offices behind that door is a police substation...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"I wouldn't chance it, particularly since one of the offices behind that door is a police substation..."
LOL, ok then...I won't tresspass :-) But which station is that door, just out of curiosity....I'd like to take a peek around there anyways. -Nick
There is a set of double doors at the eastern end of the mezzanine at the top of the ramp, outside the paid fare zone. They must have been installed recently, as there had fornerly been some sort of swing gate.
No Message
The pictures look OK on a desktop monitor, though they're a little dark on my laptop, which isn't surprising giving the lower resolution.
Will there be other tours? Or has the museum stopped giving these types of tours?
The TA has stopped the museum from offering this type of tours... issues of liability, among other things.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
@%^%$%*^*!!!! That's what I get for putting off going on these tours!
Glad they came out dark enough that I'm not recognizable in those pics :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, we tried to protect the innocent :)
--Mark
Just how much snow did the city get from this weekend storm?
We only got about 7" here in PA!
About the same, maybe a little less
Peace,
ANDEE
6 inches in the city, as well as Nassau county.
By Saturday, I had finally healed enough to ride the 'F' through the 63rd Street detour. After my dental appointment in LIC, I boarded the 'F' at Steinway.
At 36th Street, the conductor announced "Ladies and gentlement, if you listen to only one anouncement in your lives, PLEASE let it be this one-" and proceeded to explain the service changes. Unfortunately, while he correctly stated that this 'F' train would not be stopping at the Plaza, 23rd/Ely, Lex/53rd and 5th/53rd, he then advised us to get off right then and wait for the 'R', WHICH WOULD BE MAKING THOSE STOPS! Naturally, half the train emptied out.
The switch to the new trackage was a little slow and screechy, but we soon picked up good speed. Interestingly, the tunnel under 41st Avenue had old-fashioned yellow incandescent lighting, as opposed to the flourescent lighting in the Archer tunnels (and since installed in many older tunnels as well). When we reached 21st Street, where NO ONE was waiting, people immediately started checking the map. A good amount got off with the stated intention of heading back to the "right 'F' train".
Roosevelt Island station brought more cries of "Where are we?" and "Where's he GOING?!" Needless to say, it was worse when Lexington Avenue was announced and people didn't see the familiar rounded ceiling and island platform. One person was advising others they could get the '6' here- sure hope they had unlimited cards! The conductor made no mention about there not being a free transfer. That may have explained the huge exiting volume.
Interestingly, we came into Rock on the usual inner/local track, which I always thought fed in only from 53rd Street. Since 1968, whatever train comes from 57th/6th has always arrived on the wall/express track. Either way, audible sighs of relief were heard from the crowd once we returned to familiar turf.
Going back to Queens was similar. I boarded at 34th Street, where repeated announcements were made that anyone wishing connections to the '6' or Queens Plaza should change there for the 'R'. It didn't look like anyone did. At Rock, we were told 53rd Street and 6th Avenue would be the next stop. Many people took that to mean the customary 53rd and 5th.
Again at 57th/6th, there was much map perusing and mad dashes across the platform to the downtown 'F' that arrived at the same time. This conductor made a point at Lexington to tell us there was no free transfer to the '6'. This was met with "Since when?", "I did it yesterday!" and "Did they close the escalator?" Funny how they couldn't tell the difference between the Lex/63rd and Lex/53rd!
Even though the Manhattan-bound train was making its customary Queens local stops, Queensbound we switched over the express track and sped to Roosevelt. It didn't appear as if there were any connection to the local track into 36th, as opposed to the other way.
People sure have nervous breakdowns whenever there's a change in the routine. In between, I had ridden an uptown 'N' express up Broadway. At Canal, the conductor made repeated announcements about skipping Prince and 8th, to turn around at Union Square, etc. As soon as we skipped Prince, someone yelled out "Oh my God, we skipped Prince Street!"
Right on cue, some wit elsewhere in the car responded "You b***ards!"
Right on cue, some wit elsewhere in the car responded "You b***ards!"
Maybe he misses the refrigerator tile.
The lighting in the new tunnel section is not incandescent; it is compact flourescent.
The Queens-bound 63rd Street connects to BOTH the local AND express tracks.
Looks like the weekend training is necessary to train for permanent changes.
Arti
It is possible to switch to either track at 47/50th when coming southbound from 57/6; there is a wye switch there. Chances are B trains used to be switched to the inner track during non-rush hours after leaving 57th St (they didn't always run express along 6th Ave. all the time).
I caught a rerouted Q train at Union Square last October and had a nice chat with the conductor about that. It sure was nice to go zipping past 23rd and 28th again.
As my memory serves me there was a wye switch north of 47/50 and 6th both north and southbound and all four tracks could hook up with the line to 57/6th. I doubt that it has been removed; be foolish if they did.
Yes, the BMT Broadway exp. was a good ride. Be nice to see it back to life with the bridge work. Maybe some of the whiners won't want to return to 6th Ave. later.
I remember the first time I actually paid attention on a Broadway express run. It was in October of 1967, and we changed at Union Square from the Canarsie (anything to get off those BMT standards!). We just missed a T train (yep, the T was still around then) and then an N pulled in. I could see it long before it arrived, given the nice straight stretch the express tracks enjoy. Anyway, we boarded and in no time were on our way. That train of R-32s got up to speed quickly, and the next thing I knew we were flying past 23rd St. At 28th St., we seemed to be going even faster. I was loving it! So much so that when we got home, I ran up and down the upstairs hallway past the railing overlooking the living room many times in an effort to recreate the effect of all those I-beams whipping past.
ahh...a living testimony as to why sheep are sheep and will remain sheep.
Peace,
ANDEE
Telling people the R would make those stops is a good ploy. The only way to get anywhere near those stops was to get them on the R, and telling them otherwise would have required a longer explanantion. The average passenger has the attention span of a toddler.
There were people at Lex/63rd handing out transfers and telling them to take a walk, and next time to take the R at 36th.
I agree. Or, the conductor could have save said the R stops at OR CLOSE TO the skipped stations.
>Since 1968, whatever train comes from 57th/6th has always arrived
>on the wall/express track.
The JFK Express used local tracks between 47/50 & W. 4th most of the times.
Especially when the "D" and "B" terminated at 34th St.
The 6th Ave. "S" shuttle in the late 80s also went to the inner tracks.
In the mid-90s, the late night "F" changed its front end sign to "Q"
at Bway/Lafayette and went back and forth the 63rd St. line from
the local tracks.
The late night "B" Shuttle (21 St.-2nd Ave.) introduced about a year ago but already
gone used the same tracks.
There could have been some more but I don't remember them.
The CTA has finally secured 100% of the fuding it needs to renovate the Douglas/Cermak branch of the Blue Line.
You can read the article at www.yourcta.com, news, press releases.
I thought it was finally interesting to know that the Douglas Branch renovation project will not begin until the summer or fall of this year. And the fact that that's going fast in the governement's eyes with the funding so the project can get underway right away. The Structure is only about 103 years old and ready to fall down, so I guess that's as fast as a federal project goes!! It is good to hear that they won't have to wait for any of the money however, once the project starts.
It was also interesting to hear the preliminary plans state that all of the old stations will be renovated. Cicero, 18th & Polk will only remain. And these have been renovated completely in the last 20 years or so and are still in excellent condition.
I think it sucks that it takes this long for our government to do anything. But, I am glad that the Douglas Branch is now 100% safe and will be replaced. It will be sad to see the old stations go, but the CTA would have just demmed it unsafe in the next few years and tore the whole thing down if it wasn't for this funding. All of us still have anther chance to ride this summer or atleast early this summer before the work begins.
BJ
I hope this renovation means faster speeds, beautiful new ADA-compliant stations, improved property values near the new stations etc, etc.???
No pain, no gain. Congratulations to the CTA!
Glad to see the line saved but wish the architecture of the new stations was classic. My feelings about the new Green Line station is they are too institutional.Don't like them but glad the lines were saved. I've seen modern systems where the turn of the century (last one) design was incorporated and they look great. But..long live the South Side el..and the others.
Somewhere in the Willets Pt. Junkyard thread someone mentions the LIRR MUs just before the Hillside facility going westbound. I've seen these cars there for a long time - does anyone know what happened to them? Two seem to have been in a wreck and the other two look burned. They have been covered with graffiti over time. Will they stay there until they rust into dust?
If the burned cars are the ones I'm thinking of (and they probably are) they were involved in the accidental death of a track worker. Word among some of the operating employees is they were intentionally torched.
It isn't only seafaring people who are superstitious...
I don't think there is much credence to that story.
The burned cars were LIRR 9175(I) and LIRR 9176(I). They burned before the original order of 620 M-1 cars was completely buitl and delivered, and Budd Company somehow assumed responsibility and built the LIRR a second (replacement) set which became 9175(II) and 9176(II).
What *was* the story of those 2 m-1s that burnt years back? I seem to recall it happened unless less than clear circumstances?
I don't recall exact circumstances, but every source of roster material I have shows that they were replaced by Budd Company at Budd Company's expense. I seem to remember Budd setting up a rework shop on the Whitestone Branch right about the time they burned, and they sat there for ages.....so I guess they have been there almost 30 years now?
The burned cars were LIRR 9175(I) and LIRR 9176(I). They burned before the original order of 620 M-1 cars was completely buitl and delivered, and Budd Company somehow assumed responsibility and built the LIRR a second (replacement) set which became 9175(II) and 9176(II).
That would mean the burned cars were burned years before Hillside Facility was even built. Why would cars burned over 30 years ago and replaced still be on the property?
OK You are thinking of the four cars in HolBan yard, #9048, #9717, #9724 and one other one; #9243 I think. #9048 has minor end damage which looks repairable; the two 9700 series cars have had fires. #9048 is sporting a beautiful mural which looks like it was professionally done.
PLEASE DISREGARD my other post regarding #9625 as it has no bearing on this subject matter.
wayne
One might be #9625, which was wrecked at Babylon back around 1980 or so. It was so badly gashed that it was cut in two; it tried to climb up on the platform and collided with the platform canopy, which caused the carbody to buckle in the center.
Another car was renumbered #9625, not sure what its original # was.
wayne
Someone asked why they keep these old cars around, and I believe I have an explanation.
Free Stainless Steel. They can use the body panels to replace those on other cars with lesser damage.
-Hank
NYCT did this to #4501 after she crashed into R16 #6304 at Roosevelt Avenue. They had a nasty wreck of a new Slant R40 (#4200-01) sitting at Coney Island and they peeled corrugated stainless steel off of that one to give to the damaged R40M. #4501 is STILL GOING STRONG, can be found chugging through the Eastern Division, last seen on the "J" line. Her repair really stood up well.
wayne
Arborway Corridor December meeting minutes
This is the transcript of the dec. aborway meeting.
http://www.geocities.com/arborway2001/12-13minutes.txt
Thanks for pointing this out! I was unable to attend, but alerted two friends from Seashore -- and they went. They told me they were impressed with the enthusiasm (on the locals' part), and the design being offered. While the MBTA is still opposed, it looks like there is some hope.
How recently were the tracks on Centre st and South Huntington paved over?
It seems odd to pave over the tracks after 15 years and THEN have hearings about restoration.
Remember that the MBTA does not want to restore service. The hearings were held due to a lawsuit which forced the issue.
Nice!
At least the matter will be settled hopefully.
I was happy to see that there is new track laid as far as Heath Loop. When I was there in May 1999 it looked to be in terrible shape and you never know with the T.
It could have easily been allowed to detiorate to the point of no return and the E cut back to Brigham Circle.
If only they would do something about the Watertown Corridor (A Line)
>If only they would do something about the Watertown Corridor (A >Line)
Yeah, and bring back the Atlantic Ave elevated and trolleys to Norumbega Park. :-)
and trolleys to Norumbega Park
Isn't that near where Riverside is now?
>>and trolleys to Norumbega Park
>Isn't that near where Riverside is now?
Not far! Rt 30 at 128 (95 for you out of towners!) where the Mariott Hotel is.
Didn't they just recently take up some of the A tracks?
What exactly is Arborway?
- Lyle Goldman
IT WAS THE LAST STREET RUNNING LINE IN BOSTON
No. What about the E from Heath to Brigham Circle?
That is part of the Arborway line
Then WAS is the wrong word to use.
the line only goes to Heath St. all but about 1000 feet of the line is not street runnig. The " Arborway" part of the line is closed
Is it a sport to contradict yourself now?
If you are now saying that the line doesn't go to Arborway anymore, why did you bother to say that the line to Heath is part of the Arborway line?
The MBTA Still has it listed on maps as the Arborway line.
Then what was the point of message #188128?
I was saying that the line no longer goes to Arorway. It is still called the Arorbway line.
No you didn't.
You said it was the last street running line in Boston
I responded to say that the section from Heath to Brigham Circle is still street running.
You said it was part of the Arborway line
I said it was wrong of you to use the past tense regarding street running in Boston.
You then said that the Arborway line is closed.
Do you want to continue contradicting yourself, or give up while you're behind?
I give up
What is this, a freaking Abbot and Costello routine? ;-)
Depending on where you are, it's also called the Charlesgate, Fenway, Riverway and Jamaicaway.
I don't know if they actually figured out a unified name for the road, they probably didn't.
Is there any state in the USA without railroads? My guess is that Hawaii has no railroads.
http://members.aol.com/hawaiianrr/
Hawaii no longer has any common carrier railroads, but there are a couple of museum operations (on Oahu and Maui). I'm not sure if there's any surviving industrial trackage, for example at Pearl Harbor.
Alan Follett
Well even a museum operation would count, so even Hawaii (I'm gathering only Oahu) has a railroad, although not in commercial use.
He just said Oahu AND MAUI!
Yes, he did, but the Oahu railroad's website calls it Hawaii's only railroad... one of them, therefore, is wrong...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse, I have been to Maui and I rode the train there. It is as real as can be. It is a tourist line, but a real railroad nevertheless.
Doc, am I correct in assuming that that train still running? If so, then the Oahu train's website is wrong... (I have no desire to go to Hawaii myself and investigate, but I suspect that there are a few SubTalkers who might like to do so... and of course, Brighton Beach Bob might know, having just moved from Hawaii.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As far as I know, only the Maui Tourist Train is running. Have never seen the Oahu train, otherwise I would have rode it when I went to Honolulu on business or pleasure.
Well I guess I was wrong!!
Yes, only Hawaii. I have a wapp map of all the railroad lines in the USA. Besides Alaska the state with the least railroads is Nevada.
Hawaii does have a tourist Railroad on Maui, using old steam equipment. Also until after WWII Maui and the Big Island, did have local railroads, from the sugar plantations down to the docks. Also the Maui Railroad, was the only way if you did not have a car or walk that kids got to school every day(high school) from certain areras on the Island. There was a serial series last summer on the Maui Railroad in the local paper that ran for 2 months on Sundays. On the History of the pper, and they show a lot of the railroad. In fact there are areas in Northern Maui, you can still see the tracks if you know where to look. Nevada has 2 rail mainlines both now UP and many short lines and spurs, especially arounbd Las Vegas and Reno. and probably has more miles of track then some of the smaller Eastern States like Del and some of the New England States
But the density is near zip. Only Alaska has less access to rail transport.
Nevada also happens to separate California from the rest of the country, so NV would naturally have more trackage than a lot of areas. Delaware is on a sparsely populated penninsula, with nothing at the end to warrant through trains.
Any states without regular passenger service?
Other than the obvious, Hawaii, the only states with NO passenger rail service are Wyoming, South Dakota, and Maine. However:
1) if you count states that Amtrak only just skirts the edges of and has only one or two stations, you could add Idaho with one Empire Builder stop, Tennessee with two City of New Orleans stops (although one of those stops is Memphis), New Hampshire with one Vermonter stop, and Delaware with two Northeast Corridor stops (although one of those is Wilmington which is a Metroliner & Acela stop).
2) the Boston-Portland corridor that is scheduled to commence May 1st will restore service to Maine and have a few New Hampshire stops on the way.
Other than the obvious, Hawaii, the only states with NO passenger rail service are Wyoming, South Dakota, and Maine.
However:
1) if you count states that Amtrak only just skirts the edges of and has only one or two stations, you could add Idaho with one Empire Builder stop, Tennessee with two City of New Orleans stops (although one of those stops is Memphis), New Hampshire with one Vermonter stop, and Delaware with two Northeast Corridor stops (although one of those is Wilmington which is a Metroliner & Acela stop).
Delaware actually is one of the better-served states with respect to passenger rail, as it also has SEPTA service.
"Delaware actually is one of the better-served states with respect to passenger rail, as it also has SEPTA service."
You're right. I was looking strictly at intercity trains and forgot about commuter rail service.
Hawaii is unique in that there is no interstate railroad service, but it does have railroads - Maui has one and Oahu has the other.
I believe Maine had passenger rail service up until just a few years ago. Service was provided by VIA Rail Canada (I think it was part of their Montreal to Halifax route). Actually, I'm not sure that service ever actually ended on that line, I just remember that the proposals to end it made it seem fairly certain.
Yes, that train has been rerouted and remains entirely within Canada now. (We're thinking about riding it this summer.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess that would be Hawaii, the only railroad(s) there are museum, not commuter operations. Hawaii may be a paradise for many, but a frustrating hell for railfans.
I wouldn't call it a frustrating hell just because the only operations are museum based.
Hawaii isn't the kind of place that NEEDS railroads.
Maybe one day Oahu will need a commuter rail line.
It does have Interstate highways.
They are talking of LRT on Oahu
AFAIK, Newfoundland, PEI, Nunavut, Yukon, NWT, and Puerto Rico have none, although a subway is under construction in San Juan.
The Alaska Railroad crosses into the Yukon Territory, although I think that that section of track is currently out of service (but not abandoned).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The TA has hundreds of the new cars, and AFAIK, only a couple of train sets are in regular service. I read that it only takes 7 days to check over a newly delivered car. Spotting a 142 should be passe now. heypaul might be right, they're just a show fleet. They need to get their rear in gear, SCUBA divers are waiting.
there should be more, recently there seems to be more R-142's coming in.The TA is doing a lot of test runs-via Dyre Avenue line between 180 th and Dyre Avenue.or they race up the middle track on the 2 line.There seems to be more R-142A's on the Pelham Bay Line you have to hang around for about 15 minutes or so, you will catch one.There are maybe about 3 or 4 trains of R-142's on the 2 line the wait is much longer there, none on my neighborhood line the 5 line.
i am really beginning to suspect that there are some major modifications being made on the cars... the fact that nothing is being reported here about the delays fuels my suspicions... in addition, someone pointed out that the original kawasaki set of cars has not been back in service...
last i heard was that they were still testing them and swapping sets that were already in service.
last i heard was that they were still testing them and swapping sets that were already in service. i also heard that some of the new ones coming in were to be programmed for the 5 line. i assume thats the reason they weren't in service yet?
They probably are modifiying them. If they are, the newly delivered cars must have been built with whatever modification. Yet, I doubt they'll be in serivce by next week.
Maybe they're being fitted with R-9 compressors and spur-cut bull and pinion gears.:-)
Hey, if they also not installing interior brake handles and ceiling fans, there's no point in even making the alterations.
like you once said " they are made out of styrofoam "
ALL, All are being inspected and modified to install and/or correct the installation of Ziplock 1 inch packets of ASBESTOS.
The reason, at the end of their useful life, this Asbestos will have to be REMOVED in a safe fashion. The location for said packet locations is still to be determined.
avid
I was heading home from work, crossing the George washinton Bridge and noticed two tractor trailer's with flat beds. On the flat bed's I believe were r142a's they were covered in blue canopy's. I don't know if there trucks were attached. I've never seen them delivered in this fashion. Sorry I could'nt get the car number's.
You mean something like THIS? They've been delivering the shells that way since the beginning.
Peace,
ANDEE
i don't really care about car numbers... what i want to know is in which direction where they going?... where they coming into new york and going to the train yards, or were they being shipped out of new york going to the scrap yards???
and please don't tell me that it is obvious since it was reported that they were wrapped in a blue tarp... blue is mta colors, and they wrap all their dead equipment in blue in honor of the service that they would have provided if they had ever been found to be fit for revenue service... in addition the blue wrap is to prevent parts from flying off the cars while enroute to the scrap yards... having an air compressor or window or storm door fly off on the jersey turnpike could prove to be hazardous in the extremus...
Now that I have your attention, I have some LIRR questions to ask:
If as the Bob Andersen's LIRR History site states, the Atlantic branch was elevated east of ENY, how did it clear the road viaduct if it existed?
Where was the original LIRR electrification and when were the other parts electrified?
When were certain parts of the LIRR (other than Babylon) grade separated? I'm talking big projects, not like one or two bridges.
BONUS: If you figure out how to tie the posted subject to the actual subject, you'll win a prize!
Is the Pigvolution at hand?
No, just a fresh batch of Pork Chops :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hmmm. Well there might have been pig farms along the LIRR when it was first built in the 1830's. ;)
I remember the LIRR Babylon line becomming grade seperated. It happenned in the 1970's. I was just a kid. I remember riding alongside it on Sunrise Hwy (NY 27).
:-) Andrew
...And I don't know definitively, but I bet the road viadcut in East New York was not there before the LIRR was put underground.
:-) Andrew
[I bet the road viadcut in East New York was not there before the LIRR was put underground.]
That's correct. Here's a picture from the 1930's, I think looking northeast up East New York Ave.(that's the Jamaica El in the distance) from Atlantic and Snedicker Ave's.
GREAT picture! Thanks Bob
Peace,
ANDEE
Check out what appears to be a diner under the El. Anybody know what tower that is in the picture? I assume it was demolished when the line was put underground.
Bob. I assume that would be East New York Tower???
This shot is looking north from Sneidiker and East New York Avenue (if I am correct).
BMTman
That picture looks like a model, to me... or is that the point?
I would also think that the picture shows a model, except that the people and some autos in the picture look blurry, indicating motion. The roadway does look oddly clean and free of bumps or potholes....
Also notice the man standing near the signal tower. He looks real to me.
Not to me. He looks indistinct. So do the cars in the background. THis could be attributed to motion but a model would also not appear to have 100% of the detail of "the real thing". The crossing gates and sign posts around the tracks on the middle left also look like a model. The motion could have been digitally inserted just by smudging the edges of the objects. The stuff around the base of the tower looks too neat and clean to have just been some junk tossed there. The edges of the el supports on the right foreground look plastic.... Who knows. It could be real. My first impression, though, was model...
Also - shouldn't there be trolley tracks somewhere in this photo? There are two lines in the street in the lower third of the photo that could be trolley tracks but I can't be certain.
I don't know - there's just something very odd about that picture...it just doesn't look right.
No cobble stones.
avid
At first it looked like a model to me, but then looking at the bottom of the picture, you can see trash and what looks like gum stuck in on the ground. Perhaps the camera couldn't pick up the details of the things farther away?
It can't be a model -- it would have to be huge. Look at how far into the distance the perspective goes.
I just can't understand how the surface of the ground could be so neat and clean. If you take into account the possibility of dirt on the camera lens, there does not appear to be a mark or bump anywhere on the street surface. Also, wouldn't you expect to see some garbage? That should be impossible.
Also, the lack of trolley tracks really bugs me. Brooklyn had a huge network of trolleys, and wouldn't it make sense for there to be a trolley station next to the LIRR station depicted in the photo?
Finally, weren't old Brooklyn streets paved with paving blocks? Where are they?
I have numerous books on old NYC and I have never seen a photo depicting a street surface as clean and neat as the one in this photo. If it is a real photo, the Brooklyn depicted looks almost surreal.
The lighting also looks fake.
The truck on the left looks like a miniature too.
AARGH! How can it be a model? It would be humongous. Look how far back the perspective goes.
Old Brooklyn was a lot neater and cleaner than today, particularly in the outer reaches like E. New York.
I have a number of books depicting old Brooklyn. I have never seen anything like this photo. Where are the trolley tracks and the paving bricks? The roadway looks like it has never been used, which is especially strange considering that the location in the photo should be an extremely busy intersection. It just looks fake.
And about the depth of the photo - model RR's use photographic backdrops to imitate depth of a layout.
I agree that it most likely is not a model. But it sure looks like one.
Where are the trolley tracks?
There aren't any! Atlantic wouldn't have any because Fulton did and Atlantic had the RR, and why would Snediker Avenue have trolley tracks?
...of the G scale layout I'm building in my basement. In the meantime, I'll try to find out any information on those two East New York pictures I posted, such as the photographer's name, etc.
Well, now, this one looks real to me ;-)
Looks like either a photo of the old C cars on the BRT after they ramped down to street level going through the village of Jamaica sometime around the end of WWI or a shot of the old Canarsie line heading at a grade towards the pier :-)
You could always take those Rio Grande coaches and make them into turn-of-the-century New York elevated gate cars!!!!!!
Hey, Bob, I like your layout! The scene mimicks the Canarsie Railroad crossing @ Avenue L, circa 1925! Very clever.
BMTman
Except there are no gates blocking the roadway for passing trains...
By the way, the street surface in this model looks more real than the street surface in that Bklyn photo.
Are you sure? It looks real to me. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Also, wouldn't you expect to see some garbage? That should be impossible.
As I said in my previous post, look at the bottom of the picture, there's garbage everywhere.
I still think that the lightimg is to strong underneth the El.
The diner looks like it was inserted.
-Hank
Yeah, by the people who built it.
It could be retouched.
That's not a signal tower, it looks more like a crossing watch tower.
Also notice the man standing near the signal tower. He looks real to me.
It's a real picture, not a model.
Yes, and it's another GREAT classic ENY shot!
Bob, I've gotta get a shot I have of ENY in the 20's to you some day...
BMTman
How could it be a model? Look how far off into the distance the perspective goes. New York was a lot cleaner and less crowded in those days -- at least outside Manhattan.
Why are half of the gates down and half in the raised position? Where are the paving stones. The street lights look bogus. the shadows don't seem to go up the street.
avid
Thanks for posting the two great pictures, Bob!
I can remember seeing the LIRR running on the surface at Atlantic Ave and Crescent St many, many years ago.
Do you remember the Chestnut St. connection to the BMT Jamaica El or is that before your time? It was torn down during or just before the War.
I lived about four blocks west of it. It was there when I first moved to the area but I was too young to care. When my transit interest started about 1945, I really studied the stubs of the remaining steel work.
I was always amazed at the almost completely empty square block between Fulton and Atlantic, and Chestnut and Euclid, when the rest of the area was so built up.
There are too many small details all over the Photo. Take a small area and examine it closely. NICE PHOTO, BOB
Then where are the trolley tracks that should be at such a busy intersection?
Not every street in Brooklyn had trolley tracks.
BMTman
And this intersection was likely NOT a busy one. It only became busy as a result of the advent of the automobile which connected Jamaica/East New York Avenue with the Interborough Parkway, and extended Atlantic further east into Queens. Its width also made it a better candidate for cars than parallel Fulton which is mainly transit.
It just seemed as thought that was the case.
Bob, my initial answer of "East New York" for the tower was a rush to judgement. Now I have a funny suspicion that back in those days the tower was probably called "Manhattan Junction". Am I right? Do I win the e-mail prize??? :-)
BMTman
I don't know the answer; I was hoping someone knew for sure.
Looks like a model RR. Cool.
I assume the East New York Avenue tunnel was built at the same time as the Atlantic Avenue viaduct?
It would have been COOL if there was still a grade crossing there.
I'd take the Interborough back from Queens or LI EVERY TIME (and I wouldn't take the Bushwick Av exit either).
I am not worthy.
I was making statements without seeing Both of BoB's Photos. I had only viewed thr second. The first made everything a little clearer.
Still, were are the cobble stones?
avid
I haven't posted much over the weekend due to bar hopping Saturday Night with former Prez Wild Bill n' his buddy Jesse*. I suggested that heypaul, avid reader and Subwaysurf come along, but Bill said that the Secret Service guys weren't prepared to handle 'too many of those railfan types', so I couldn't have my SubTalk buddies tagging along :-(
Bill is a real party animal. We went to 'Scores' and almost got thrown out when Bill tried to get one of the dancers to handle a cigar for him in 'that special way'. Then we went downtown to 'NY Dolls' where Jesse realized he had to 'check in' to his wives and found out he had to head home (gotta take care of the 'new Jackson').
Meanwhile, after about twelve pints of Brooklyn Lager (shameful plug) I was ready to head home, but Bill was eager to head to the back room for a 'lap dance' with one of the regular girls. At that point I thanked him for being President for eight years and left him as he let out a 'yahoo' as he was heading to a darkened area of the club with the 'dancer'.
BMTman
*This story is true to the best of my recollection...
I hope Bill had plenty of cigars Those "dancers" can "smoke" 4 COHIBAS at a time
You sound like someone I'd enjoy going to a bar with.
BMTman or President Clinton?
[You sound like someone I'd enjoy going to a bar with.]
Then you'd also probably enjoy getting thrown out of a few bars...:-)
BMTman
Makes sense to me. Someone pointed out on Imus this morning that Clinton's new office in the Carnagie Hall Tower is just around the corner from that revered southern eating establishment, Hooters.
Hooters was too packed. Not enough room for the three of us plus the twenty-five Secret Service agents...
BMTman
Jeez, tiny place for such a big restaurant chain. Maybe now that they know they've got a steady customer in the neighborhood, they'll expand the seating capacity, though I'm sure when Hillary's in town, Bill will have to order take-out (food only, no waitresses).
Re: Bill Clinton party animal
Where was his loving and supportive wife in all this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
With her GIRLfriend of course.
Mr t__:^)
Any Body know what the number of Retired R14 car that sitting at Grand Concourse Yard? One of them is redbird that used to be work car & other is sliver with blue. I need to know what number of those car & why both of them sitting at GC Yard? BTW i saw R12 or R14 sitting at Westcheaster Yard last Saturday night & i couldn't see the number.
Peace Out
David Justinian
By the way, it's Concourse yard - there's no Grand in the name. The two cars was sitting out on 27 track (in 'storage') but recently moved to 6 track for removal of asbestos. They will eventually be removed from Concourse yard as space will be critical once the redbirds are stored there.
I'm not sure about the numbers but from the photos I have, the R-14 is 5851. The R-12, (red) I think is 5712.
"The R-12, (red) I think is 5712. "
Was #5712 that badly faded red R-12 used at Corona yard for the R-33/36 Coney Island shop moves ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I think you mean 5713. The car at Concourse Yard sat at 180th Street for many years. I believe the number is 35802.
-Stef
Take away the 3 in front and you have the last production R-12, 5802.
That's it! Like I was saying, this R-12/14 sat for many years at East 180th Street before being moved to Concourse. I'm not really sure what this car was last used for and when it last rolled under it's own power. If anyone knows, I'd sure like to hear about it.
-Stef
The interior of the silver/blue car is actually still in fair condition. The old style fans are still in excellent condition. The TA could remove them and sell them at the transit museum.
Better yet, the TA could sell the whole car to a museum, if there are any takers. Hey, Stef, 6688 could use a playmate, don't you think?
Well anything's possible, but it's up to the TA to decide if they want to sell cars to a Museum, any of them, not just Branford.
-Stef
True, very true.
With the word asbestos being thrown around, do you think that the TA would want to sell these or any other car for that matter?
-Stef
The red R12 stored at Corona is 5713. It has been there since 1968.
"The red R12 stored at Corona is 5713. It has been there since 1968."
I haven't seen it in years. Has it been repainted in the yellow & black work train scheme or is it still faded red (not fox red)?
Bill "Newkirk"
That car isn't there anymore. I saw an ERA Report from 1996 which said it had been scrapped. To my knowledge, the R-12/14 Work Motors are now extinct.
-Stef
I do recall seeing (and posting) on a
r12/14 work car sighted at 240St. Yard
back in...eeehhhh.. October 2000?
R-14 RD323 (ex-5877) was in 36 St MOW Yard as of 12/20/00.
I meant cars that could run under their own power. These units that are still out there aren't self propelled and had the components stripped out of them, for use with diesel locomotives. When was the last time, you saw an R-12/14 run under it's own power?
-Stef
Please clearify,
The parts stripped out. Were the parts used with diesel locos?
Were the cars used , after stipping, with diesel locos?
Avid
How stripped are they? Could they be restored using parts from "newer" stock? Like, maybe stuff from the redbirds about tobe retired?
So maybe it won't be O E M but alwmost "WORTHY" like almost virgin.
avid
Let me clarify: The cars as a whole are used in work service with the diesel locmotives. To lighten the weight of the ex-passenger cars, components were stripped out of them. Don't ask what, they just were.
Whether or not they could be restored to operating condition is beyond me. I personally don't think rider cars are even worth fixing, because you would have to undo various modifications on them which equates to big bucks.
I really don't think restoring a rider car to a working self propelled car would generate interest, but someone can dispute me on this.
-Stef
I should have checked before I responded but both cars are R-14s One is 5851 as I originally stated but the other (red) R-14 is 5857 or 35857, whichever you perfer. Sorry for the incorrect information.
By the way, it's Concourse yard - there's no Grand in the name. The two cars were sitting out on 27 track (in 'storage') but were recently moved to 6 track for removal of asbestos. They will eventually be removed from Concourse yard as space will be critical once the redbirds are stored there.
I'm not sure about the numbers but from the photos I have, the R-14 is 5851. The R-12, (red) I think is 5712.
Sighted something similar to a "30_2" on the redbird..
According to the MTA site, the B will run express from 10 AM to 6:30 PM every weekday until Feb 23 from Bay Parkway to 62nd. 2 Questions:
1 - Why wasn't it doing so today?
2 - Why isn't the M affected?
3 - Don't they usually stop stuff like this at around 3 PM? What makes this so special?
4 - Won't this be a tad inconvenient if you factor in the CI-bound Sea Beach express from 10 AM until 3 PM this week?
Yes, I know that's more than 2 questions. I thought of more while typing, forgot to change it.
Hi folks...
FYI, I spotted a an R32 on the Q today (Monday)...most likely last minute thing since the weekend train assignments are based on a flip of a coin...R40s were on the B this weekend, there are at least 1 or 2 R40's on the N....
Now, there is so much talk (by ignorant newspaper journalists i.e. NY Daily news)...about the 63rd St tunnel...
they all fail to mention what will happen to the Q by summer time, moreover the B and the D....
I am sure all those who showed up tonight at LIC high school to talk it over neglects the fact that the V and F will be the ONLY thru-6th Ave trains running...
they did mention the fact that they don't have enough equipment to run enough service..
Now here is the most stupid NY Daily News article, rather, "person interviewed" by Daily News:
This women who worked in CHinatown claimed that it will double her commute time on the B (err "W") if the train goes to Canal as opposed to Grand...it will now take her an hour, as opposed to 30 minutes..
POOR BABY.
The article also mentioned the Bensonhurst rep William COlton wrote a letter to MTA and blah, blah, blah...
I myself an of Chinese descent and and I have to say that the women who claimed that it would take much longer is totally ignorant...
Again, I slit my wrists before boarding a Manny Bridge train because people are also so crowded, so NOISY, parents who don't let their three year old kid sit down...
With respect to the Chinese people, I do believe that prior to closing the south side, Chinese people preferred Canal over Grand because of the proximity to the heart of Chinatown...
diddo for Bowery station which is close to Chinatown....people are just too ____ (fill in whatever you want)....
Does any one know how long it take from DeKalb to Canal express???...
Believe it or not, it only take a mere 16 minutes to get from DeKalb to Canal via tunnel....if it take 11 to get there via Bridge, I opt for the seat on the N/R with the corporate crowd, who is by far, less noisy, and more comfy....
it currenty takes anywhere from 8 to 12 minutes to get to Grand via Bridge and it does literally crawl sometimes....
the agony...
SeaBeach53
Stupid little point: The N regualrly uses slant R40's. The line just don't have as many of them as it does R32s and R68s.
Anyway, I'd rather not make an ethnic issue out of this. For one thing, the Manny-B flip isn't even the TA's decision to make. But considering that I drive three and half miles to my subway stop (179th), I'm hard-pressed to find sympathy for those who will have to walk a few extra blocks to Canal.
:-)Andrew
Same here too, I can't understand complaining about a few blocks when I gotta put up with crappy LI Bus service.
Media always hypes these changes, and makes things appear much worse than they actually are.
I betcha most people in Chinatown won't complain about it, the only concern I have is a depletion of business in the Grand/Chrystie area, which may lead to increased vacancy and lost jobs.
Hmm, I don't notice much of a difference between bridge or tunnel trains. The only train that does seem to be particularly crowded and noisy is the D. For the most part it isn't the chinese people that create the noise.
Find it hard to believe the flip would add 30 minutes to one's commute. 10 or 15 minutes is more realistic, and for some, their commute might be shorter.
These people should be thrilled. Split service means extra chance at seats. Also, the B'wy express is less stops to 34 and 57th (=Columbus Circle) than 6th ave.
Last time the Broadway side of the bridge was open, the running time from DeKalb to Canal was 6 minutes. As far as the Canal/Grand debate, the 2 stations are only a few blocks apart, I could probably make the walk myself in less than 5 minutes. Typical Daily News left wing BS. Always feeling sorry for the world.
Been there. Can't do it in 5. Very doable in 10, IIRC, which still isn't bad.
About the Q line, there will be two of them travelling to Brighton, one Brighton Express, and the other Brighton local, and they'll run from 57th Street to Brighton Beach (or Coney Island?)... As for the B and D they'll run from Uptown and the Bronx to 34th Street. They had this in Good Day NY (ch. 5) BTW.
There were two stories of note from this mornings radio news:
(1) a tractor-trailer FELL off the Gowanus Expressway (northbound) and landed on the street at 29th Street and 3rd Avenue. The driver was incredibly unharmed and thankfully no one was on the street at the time or they would have been killed.
(2) A fire on board a Manhattan-bound A Train from Far Rockaway was delaying service by as much as ten mintues on the 8th Ave. Line during the earlier part of the morning rush.
As for the A Train service disruptions: I did not encounter any problems on the A train when I boarded at East New York.
The Gowanus incident is still under investigation, but it is not out of the question that the icy conditions of the roadway played a part.
If anyone has additional info on either story, feel free to post more details. Thanx
BMTman
>>>(1) a tractor-trailer FELL off the Gowanus Expressway (northbound) and landed on the street at 29th Street and 3rd Avenue. The driver was incredibly unharmed and thankfully no one was on the street at the time or they would have been killed. <<<
Both drivers were seriously hurt. Residents of the area helped themselves to the trucks cargo of dairy products.
NY1 REPORT
Peace,
ANDEE
The first reports I heard were that a tractor-trailer had fallen from the Gonowhere. I considered the condition of the highway, and my first thought was through, not off. I was stuck in traffic from Tottenville all the way to Downtown Brooklyn, where I dropped off Jodi.
-Hank
Hello Subtalkers:
ONE MORE TIME, I am posting this to make sure everybody sees it:
The following is a notification published by the MTA
Public Hearing
Proposed Subway Service Plan for the 63rd Street Connection
The MTA will hold a public hearing on a plan to begin new subway service when the 63rd Street Connection opens for full operation in late August 2001.
The 63rd Street Connection to the Queens Boulevard Line is being built to reduce overcrowding on the "E" and "F" trains. The recommended service plan will use the new track connection to increase the amount of rush-hour service from the Queens Boulevard Line into Manhattan by more than 20%. Over 400,000 customers will benefit from a faster, less crowded ride into and out of Manhattan each day.
Recommended Service Plan
_ "F" train service would shift from the 53rd Street Line to the 63rd Street Line, using the new 63rd Street Connection. "F" service would continue to operate along the Queens Boulevard Express Line between Jamaica-179th Street and Coney Island.
_ The plan would also include a new local "V" train subway service, which would operate to and from Forest Hills-71st Avenue along the Queens Boulevard Local, 53rd Street and 6th Avenue Lines to and from the Lower East Side-2nd Avenue Station.
_ "E" and "R" train service would remain unchanged.
_ The plan would shift the northern terminus of the "G" Line from Forest Hills-71st Avenue to the Court Square Station in Long Island City at all times. Under this plan, "G" riders to and from Manhattan or Queens would now transfer at Court Square to and from the "E" and "V" trains via a connecting passageway to the 23rd Street-Ely Avenue Station, or they can use a new MetroCard walking transfer between the "G" at Court Square and Court House Square Station on the #7 Line.
Date and place of the hearing:
Tuesday, January 23, 2001
Starting at 6 p.m.
Long Island City High School
14-30 Broadway
Long Island City, Queens
(accessible by bus on Broadway from the N elevated subway, or from Queensborough Plaza buses).
You may register to speak until 7 p.m. on the day of the hearing.
For more information, or to register to speak, contact:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director,
MTA Government and Community Relations
347 Madison Avenue, New York, NY 10017
Telephone: (212) 878-7483. www.mta.nyc.ny.us
This location is accessible to the mobility-impaired.
Interpreter services will be provided for the hearing-impaired.
Has anyone seen these 2 cars recently in their travels? (or maybe at 207 st?)They are supposed to be on the 7 line instead for some reason they are not. Pelham sent over 9536 and 9537 as replacements for 9540 9541. As you are quite aware due to a car shortage and an increase of both local and express service, the 7 line now has 2 extra (Mainline sets 20 Cars) from Pelham. These cars are here to stay, Hence the stickers being changed from Pelham to Corona as I type this. If any one has seen this "missing pair" could someone please post a follow up or e mail me directly? Thank You Very Much. Regards,Tom. :0)
Tom, I think these cars are in some storage yard-and gonna be cannibalized for spare parts. I'm not too sure though. 9524-9535 I believe are due over here too. Thjose are the remaining R36 MLs. All of the other cars are WF (9478-9523).
R36#9548Gary
According to my logbook, 9535 was still running on the Pelham line as of 1/17/01.
Marc
Oops, it was running as of this morning as well, 1/23/01. North motor...
Marc
Oops, 9535 was running as of this morning as well, 1/23/01. North motor...
Marc
Story in DAILY NEWS
Peace,
ANDEE
The most interesting part of the hearing will be seeing the MTA explain the V/F track switch between 36th St. and Queens Plaza. Judging by the weekend story in the News, a lot of people, especially those using the F on Hillside Ave., are upset over losing access to the Lex transfer at 53rd Street, and the News said the new setup could result in the E train being jammed even more than it is now, because the F riders will try to get on it before Roosevelt Ave., instead of switching to the V and enduring the five local stops between Roosevelt and 36th St.
That's a reasonable concern, but I think it's also reasonable to try out this plan and see if that overcrowding happens. If it turns out not to be as much of a problem as we think it could be now, then we're OK. If it is, then obviously a change will be needed.
I don't think the complaints are going to convince the MTA to change their current plan, but I think in the end they'll find making transfers slightly easier for current G riders on local stations between Continental and 36th St. will make fewer people happy than giving F riders between 179th St. and Kew Gardens a one-seat ride to the Lex transfer at 53rd St.
I'd say by 2003 or 2004 the F will be back in the 53rd St. tunnel and the V will be running through 63rd St.
That's the nice thing about the plan's flexibility. With three tunnels hooked up to the same interchange, you can try lots of things to see what works best. Your prediction may or may not come true; time will tell.
The article lists both the F and V as using the 63rd Street tunnel. Now if that isn't the dumbest mistake someone could make...
But the F and V ARE going to be using the 63rd St. Tunnel.
Peace,
ANDEE
No Andee, you got it wrong.
The V train will replace the F, under the proposal, on 53rd St service. This is why the G had to be cut back to Court - so the V could come through Queens Plaza. The V will service all stations between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza. The F will switch from the Northern Blvd express track to the 63rd St tunnel west of 36 St station.
Come to the hearing tonight, if you can.
I think I've figured out why they are putting the F through 63rd St. and the V through 53rd St. (Or am I the last person on this board to think of this?) If they did it the other way around, the (two or three dozen G riders who get on between Roosevelt and QP would have to change trains twice to get to Bklyn (unless they waited for an R). I'm not sure this justifies the choice that was made, but it might explain it.
You're right! And you're not the last person to figure it out (even if you were, so what?)
I think I've figured out why they are putting the F through 63rd St. and the V through 53rd St. (Or am I the last person on this board to think of this?) If they did it the other way around, the (two or three dozen) G riders who get on between Roosevelt and QP would have to change trains twice to get to Bklyn (unless they waited for an R). I'm not sure this justifies the choice that was made, but it might explain it.
Amtrak is resuming charter trains from Virginia to Atlantic in conjunction with the Tropicana casino, with 4 trains scheduled approximately two weeks apart beginning this Sunday. The train, originating in Newport News, is scheduled to leave 30th Street for A.C. at 2:45 PM. Return Tuesday leaving A.C. at 3:30 PM. The two trains last year apparently were considered successful, with about 280 and 300 passengers, respectively.
Senator Corzine says that getting funding for a new tunnel is a top priority for his first term. Story in Star-Ledger.
Damn. Something might actually get done.
-Hank
I've called Corzine's office to express support. He and Hillary need to get together to push this...
All you NY Denizens, call Senator Clinton and get her on board, if she's not already.
I would suggest they get ahold of EPA Secretary Christie Todd Whitman (under the premise that a new rail tunnel would lower pollution levels in the NY-NJ area by cutting automobile use) and Transportation Secretary Norman Minetta to push the idea, since Corzine and Clinton probably are in the Bottom 5 among U.S. Senators with influence with the Republican Congress and the Bush administration.
Good point. Of course, Corzine could probably fund it personally.
But how much per train would his company charge for the use of the tunnel?
Agreed. However, if Corzine and Clinton "play the game" they will be entitled to a certain amount of pork (or corned beef, as the case may be), and the new Hudson tunnels are as good as any.
Also, the NEC narrows from four tracks to two as it approaches the Hudson. How about, as they're digging the new tunnel, NJT also fund an additional two-track span adjacent to the existing bridge to allow Amtrak and NJT to each have two tracks consistently from Elizabeth east into the tunnels?
If (for the sake of argument) a new commuter rail tunnel was built from New Jersey to Manhattan with federal money, while improvements on the New York side (ie. the LIRR to GCT, Second Avenue Subway) were not made, then the attractiveness of New Jersey to people with resources would increase relative to New York.
This would increase property values in New Jersey and decrease them in New York. It would increase tax revenues in New Jersey and decrease them in New York, while possibly increasing the number of housing units available to poor and troubled people who require extensive services in New York.
Make no mistake about it, such a scenario would be terrible for New York City and Long Island, even if it would be fun for railfans. All New York would get is the disruption of the construction.
If New Jersey wants to pay for a tunnel, then fine. But for New York to pursue federal money for it (and give up federal money for other things to get it) is economic suicide.
Larry, I didn't read RIB's post as suggesting that "Access to the Region's Core" should be instead of "East Side Access" or the 2nd Avenue Subway.
The hub of a bi-state metro area, NYC benefits whenever transportation to the hinterlands is improved, regardless of jurisdictional boundaries. Better transportation means more commerce means more jobs and more goods and services being produced means generally greater prosperity. Your last post reminds me of the NJ people complaining about the PATH fare increase as if NYers won't be paying the same fares whenever we use PATH. The sooner everyone recognizes that we're all in this together and stops playing f*** your neighbor, the better off we'll all be.
The hub of a bi-state metro area, NYC benefits whenever transportation to the hinterlands is improved, regardless of jurisdictional boundaries. Better transportation means more commerce
means more jobs and more goods and services being produced means generally greater prosperity ... The sooner everyone recognizes that we're all in this together and stops playing f*** your neighbor, the better off we'll all be.
You can't be a native New Yorker!! It's almost a religious belief in parts of the city, most notably among the Manhattan elite, that the world ends at the Hudson and East rivers*. Everything beyond is a bleak wasteland populated by three-toothed, trailer-dwelling cretins who marry their 12-year-old first cousins.
* = okay, maybe Riverdale and Brooklyn Heights are honorary parts of Manhattan.
You're OK as long as you don't claim to be a real New Yorker whilst living in (gasp) White Plains or Scarsdale...
You can't be a native New Yorker!!
It shows, does it? I confess, I was born in Brooklyn. At the age of 18 months, I was bundled off to Woonsocket, where I grew up. After 25 years in NYC, I still lack some of the parochial attitudes often found in this town.
Disruption from costruction? Not likely. They'd probbably use a modern tunnel boring machine. And besides, the tunnel's under water, mostly :) A 3rd tunnel to NJ, plus a connector to GCT, would fill in a lot of blanks. Then again, so would a 7 extension to Penn
The connector to GCT would be the dicey part, even more so than the Jersey tunnel.
Assuming no flying junctions, it would have to split off from the current tracks used by the LIRR at Fifth or Madison Ave. and then head north to 42nd St. It would then either have to connect below the Grand Central-Times Square shuttle and above the No. 7 train to either the lower level loop track at GG, or the new proposed third level where the LIRR trains from the 63rd St. tunnel would come in. Or they could bring it in below the No. 7 tracks, but that would mean a really, really deep platform would have to go in at Grand Central Station.
Either way, it would be almost as complicated an operation as it was building the Sixth Ave. subway through the Herald Square area back in the 1930s. And when it comes to NYC construction, complicated=costly.
Fortunately, Larry, your scenario is not the only outcome or interpretation. Honestly, you sound so burned out, maybe a skin-graft specialist should be visiting you.
As for me, I think Hillary and Jon can do some good stuff together for both states.
I believe that DOCK bridge already has enough capacity to carry everything coming east from Penn Station Newark. I take it you're talking about twinning the bridge over the Hackensack River? If so, that's a good idea. That leaves Penn Station New York as the bottleneck. There is only so much that better signals and improved pedestrian access to platforms can accomplish.
There have been a number of proposals over the years for the location of the new tunnels. One proposal has the two new tunnels flanking the existing ones into Penn; another would put the new tunnels in between the Lincoln Tunnel and the existing Penn tunnels. A third proposal, and one which I think merits investigation, would be to locate the new tunnels NORTH of the Lincoln tunnel. This would allow for easier access into GCT and would also be less likely to interfere with existing tunnels and pipelines on the riverbed. I don't know enough about access issues on the New Jersey side but I would think that routing issues could be resolved. Additionally, with comparatively little additional work (still a lot, but relatively little in the grand scheme of things) the tunnels could be built to doublestack height and used as part of a through freight connection to New England, taking many trucks off the roads.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Height isn't a limiting factor for freight in the tubes. The PRR attempted to bring trains through the tubes, but the slack action and track dynamics imposed by the grade and whatnot played hell with the couplers and locomotives. Freight trains carry with them a whole lot of random variables you don't want comming into play on the bussiest passenger route in the country.
Freight trains carry with them a whole lot of random variables you don't want coming into play on the busiest passenger route in the country.
Properly managed, though, those variables can be minimized. Railroading in the 21st century is a lot different than railroading in the early years of the 20th. IIRC the ruling grade in the Hudson River tunnels is 2.2% (I don't know what the grade is in the East River tunnels, but I would assume it is about the same). Set the grade at 1.7%, build the tunnels with sufficient clearance for doublestacks under the wire, and run 'em through at 40 mph from New Jersey to the Hell Gate Bridge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's another option that is slightly less effective, but more cost effective. We can connect the Southern Tier Line to the old Po'burg bridge line, re-hab the bridge and then re-build the line to the Metro North Harlem Line north of Brewster. Intermodals would come off the Southern Tier Line (the origional Double Stack Route, now held in reserve by NS to await future traffic), cross the bridge then head down the Harlem Line. Someone said there's a connection from the Harlem Line to the Amtrak Hell Gate Line at Oak Point. From there the intermodals head over the bridge and into Lon Guyland. This option would probably be cheaper than stack ready tunnels and would allow connections from eastbound CSX and NS trains. NS would love to get some traffic on the Tier and there wouldn't be any traffic delays.
Far too much ROW is gone now on both sides of the Poughkeepsie Bridge, unfortunately, for that to be a real possibility. I wish it could be done.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The new Secauacs connection will bring added capasity to the bottleneck portion. Other low cost measures include making the route 4 track from DOCK to HUDSON. Ever since the PATH was physically seperated from Amtrak the line went from 5 to 3 tracks. Those 3 tracks need to handle all NEC trains, all Waterfront trains and all Adlene Plan trains. DOCK interlocking needs to be re-done to let Amtrak use all 5 tracks even though PATH trains and real trains would sometimes run on the same track. This is exactly why PATH is an FRA railroad.
Isn't the real bottleneck the limited Penn station track and yard capacity? Any new tunnel plan should include added station tracks or added yard space on the West side. It won't be much of an improvement if we increase the number of trains that can fit under the river but don't increase the number of trains that can fit into the station.
This plan would also need 2 new East River tubes because the LIAR basically uses 2 whole tubes leaving Amt/NJT with 2, just like on the Hudson side. Penn Station is currently designed to easily allow 2 new east tubes at the end of the stub end NJT tracks (1-4). With 2 more east tunnels there could be greater shuttling service b/t Sunnyside and Penn Station, thus freeing up track space.
They don't need 6 tracks across the East River. The four existing tubes allow the LIRR to use up to three of them for peak direction travel.
-Hank
Leaving NJT/Amtrak with only one tube. As traffic into Penn increases you will have more trains needing to use Sunnyside (as well as more trains using the Hell Gate Line once ACELA gets up and running). Any tunnel project that makes more room on the west must include 2 new tubes on the east or you'll have the traffic jam from hell. As I said before 2 new tubes would also free up platform space in peak periods. With an exit to tracks 1-4 NJT trains would be able to come in, discharge, then leave through the new tubes to either lay up at or loop around Sunnyside for the return trip.
There's no need for two additional tubes. You can make 1-4 continuous (if possible) without the additional tunnels. All four East River tunnels are bidirectional. There's no issues with trains running through into Sunnyside, and it's not likely there will be in the future. What's really necessary is an increase in platform space and the additional Hudson tube. And don't forget the almost-surety of the GCT connection will remove some LIRR trains.
-Hank
The LIRR must never be allowed to connect to GCT. PRR and NYC must remain completely seperate. To do otherwise would create imbalance in the space-time continum and cause an explosion that would wipe out Manhattan.
Jersey Mike,
What?! Your crazy! Building a new terminal for the NJT, LIRR is one of the best ideas I can think of.
N Bwy
Maybe you would understand better if you had some more respect/love for the PRR and all their Evil Enemies. Grand Central Terminal should be blown up and turned into Madison Square Garden IV. Penn Station should then be re-built to its 1910 configuration. Also, incase you forgot, Penn Station has a better location and better subway access than GCT.
Grand Central might only be connected to one N-S line, but it certainly has a better location than Penn Station.
Mike, you're a candidate for induction into the SPF hall of fame :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
SPF? Society of Pennsy Fanatics?
Slobbering
Pennsy
Freaks
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why you! Aborah pohpayt pugh splort waga tbbbth sput booo baaah eeeeegfh spegath tbbbbbbbbtm
Wow! He's sure ambitious, a first term Senator wants to deliver a major construction project.
Of course, maybe he can buy it for us. He seems to have plenty of spare change to buy things.
The man who pushed his ex-girl friend's car into the path of a NS freight train in Pennsylvania, killing two women and two 2-year-old children, was convicted of third degree murder. Conflicting testimony prevented a first degree verdict. Sentencing next week; he could get life. Story in Tuesday's Inquirer.
Hey Guys,
This is off of the beaten track but slightly transit related. I have a problem with lateness. I can't seem to get anywhere on time, I've tried everything to be more punctual but it doesn't work. Coming up, I have a good chance at getting a job with the NYCT & because I am such a transit fan I will kill myself if I mess it up by being late all of the time. Do you guys have any advice, tips, support groups, therapists, to suggest to help me get over this rut? Any constructive comments will be apprecaited. Thanx..
Set your clock faster by the amount of time you're usually late. Don't adjust anything else.
-Hank
Notice the money they are docking you out of your paycheck. If we are late 17 times in a quarter we are docked DOUBLE the latness. 10 mintues late equal 20 minutes docked. That might get your attention.
And 17 latenesses in 3 months is very giving if you ask me, that is a whole month of lateness. 17 and less you are docked time late.
If you arrive early can you punch in and get paid for that time?
No message
Can you please answer in the context of of a message rather than using the subject line for your responses.
Thank you,
Peace,
ANDEE
(see title)
lol
If you're going to persist in doing that please put n/t in the text box. It means "no text".
On other boards they put "[end]" at the end of the title. Took me a while to figure it out. I had been just thinking of suggesting this for this board, since many messages are one liners, one word answers, or stuff like "LOL" that would easily fir in the subject field
Generally no. You are only paid for being early if they use you before your time starts (at 1 1/2X).
Nope, you must work your work hours, even if you punch in early or out after your time you won't be paid OVERTIME unless you have prior approval and an OT sheet is filled out.
BTW, you have a 5 minute (3 for lunch) grace period if it is not abused. But if you punch in at 8:06 you will be docked 6 minutes not 1.
In RTO (subways), you are expected to be on time but you have an unofficial 15 minute window on the majority of jobs. If you are late by more than 15 minutes then your time is cut, you are sent home without pay, and you'll be written up which means a suspension. Exceptions are made if you call the dispatcher beforehand and tell him that you're running a little late. This only works if you're late only once in a while and there is no guarantee that the dispatcher can cover for your lateness with his available crews. If he can't cover for you then you'll get the punishment listed above. If you're chronically late then you could lose your job.
Hey that was my idea! I always run my clock 8 minutes fast. The only other sugestion I can give it try to get a shift that starts in the morning. If I am ever late its because my task started at some busy time of day (like evening) and I just couldn't pull myself away from what I was doing. It also helps to set a definite departure time. If you have to go on at like 8 AM, set a time to leave the house by that gives you pleanty of time to get where you're going and they abide by it. Most often than not you'll get there early and that's a good thing.
first let me admit to what is quite obvious to most people... i am not model of psychological health...
there are some schools of pop psychology that look at lateness as being a sort of passive kind of anger expression... you might have an appointment with someone who you don't really want to be with, so you might arrive late and in a way be expressing your dislike of the person or of having to keep an appointment... you might not like your job, so coming in late might be a way of expressing your feelings... you might not like yourself, and coming late to things might be a way of screwing yourself...
again this is a very pop simplistic bit of psychology, that i am probably distorting...
in fact you might just be a
lazy undisciplined screw-up who needs to spend a few years in the armed services to get some discipline
seriously... if working for transit is a dream... what do you think is behind your being late?...
You have a few good points..I've always considered the self-hate theory..never the military, not that type..anyway, maybe discipline is the point..with that in mind, I'm trying to get my act together..after all, I can't use the trains as an excuse for being late to Transit..
I'm flattered though..I got a moving graphic out of this..
Thanx..
you can go from an undisciplined life
to a life on the move
and if steve's r-10's were still running
to a run down central park west like this
keep an eye out in the bookstores next month for
heypaul's book of do it yourself brain surgery
Funny *NM*
You have outdone yourself....
Peace,
ANDEE
Psychiatrists classify their patients as follows:
1. Those that are early for their appointments exhibit their anxiety,
2. Those that are late for their appointments show their hostility and aggression,
3. Those that are exactly on time are obsessive/compulsive.
No message
As someone who is the most punctual person in the world, I always always estimate the time it will take to get some place, and then leave 10-15 minutes early just in case a problem arises along the way. When you have time, try to figure out how long it takes you to get to various places. They'll give you reference points about the time it takes to get to other destinations.
Ironically, I'm also the biggest procrastinator in the world. I put everything off until the last minute.
What works for me is that if I have to leave the house by 6 am then I actually try to leave at 5:30 instead.
Because if you are always late in the TA, you WILL lose your job.
This sounds really crazy, but I find myself more likely to make an appointment if I set it for an odd time. For example, I'll actually tell someone "I'm gonna be at your house at 2:57 tomorrow."
If it is a person I know reasonably well, I'll even call them if I am going to be more than about four minutes late for the commitment. That part gives me a mild punishment for being late, although people think I'm weird when I call to say I am running 12 minutes behind schedule, and predict a 3:09 arrival. When I'm early, I've been known to pull over about a block before the destination and put on the hazard lights while I wait for an on-time arrival.
I am the same way, though... it is REALLY hard for me to be on time. Something about the odd times I set make me more precise, though. If I have to be somewhere by 3:00, I subconciously think "about three." The whole setting the clock ahead doesn't work because I can't trick myself into thinking its the actual time, and always wind up wasting it.
Hope this helps,
Brandon W. Bostian
This is the ride
What car type is that in the picture? R38? If so, why only an 8 car train instead of 10? Also what kind of loser would wait everyday for the same train just to spit on it? That guy needed to get a life.
It's an R-44 (75' cars).
Also what kind of loser would wait everyday for the same train just to spit on it?
Can't answer that one, but what kind of loser would push someone off a platform, for that matter?
The car number shown on the photo is 5230.
Chaohwa
>>>Also what kind of loser would wait everyday for the same train just to spit on it? That guy needed to get a life. <<<
Thia city is full of all kinds of whackos, who knows maybe it was a person who missed that train once, maybe it was heypaul protesting the retirement of the R1/9.
Having grown up and spent all of my 45 yrs in this city nothing surprises me.
Peace,
ANDEE
While I know that you are correct (I grew up in Flatbush same timeperiod), I like to think that people in NYC are starting to enjoy living there again (finally) the way people (maybe) did in the 1940s. However, it is the randomness of such acts that keep sane families from moving within 100 miles of NYC. While I love it all, especially things like the subway, I cannot deal with people impinging on my right to personal safety.
On a related note, it is really cool that Tunnel Vision is occuring in the times; it is one of the things that ALL "real" New Yorkers share in common and are always at least somewhat interested in. I think this SUBTALK should be an article in there someday.
I like the part about how the Pigeons take the train. I have seen this happen myself on the VI Train during oneof my 3 NYCS rides.
Chickens ride the bus, too.
If you are in Coney Island, the pigeon thing mentioned in the article happens often. I even saw twice, one on the F train in 1995, and one on the N train last year.
Chaohwa
Yeah, the pigeons know the deal. I like watching them myself. Some conductors will close the doors and then reopen them so that the pigeons can get off and don't have to ride/fly back.
Peace,
ANDEE
So these conductors do know the trick!
Chaohwa
Yeah, the pigeons have them trained.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hay what ever works, wonder if they would make good supervisors ?
Maybe better then some ?
Mr t__:^)
Was that article written just for us or WHAT ?
Thanks for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
Just got out of a meeting with da boss in his office (mine does not have windows). He has a cornor office on Queens Plaza North so the only thing that kept me sane was watching the rail traffic through QueensBoro Plaza and the N train does it for me.
In this 45 minute meeting I saw on the N R32's R40 Slants, R68's and R68A's. Also watched the 7 go buy and counted the thrid car from the flushing end to see the R33's. Each 7 had it in the same position.
The meeting you ask? I don't even remember what it was about.
Wow! A view of Queensboro Plaza is a subfan's dream!
Definitely the N is the best for the various types of equipment.
:-) Andrew
No wonder the schools are falling down.
Lou: The Sea Beach will do that to you. It's a very theraputic line. Do they call it the Sea Beach in Queens, though? I think they call the N something different there but I never paid attention. To me the N was and always will be the Sea Beach.
They call it the N or the Astoria line.
"Sea Beach" only refers to the N's Brooklyn route. In Queens, the N now runs on the Astoria line. This was once an IRT line, or to be exact a jointly-run IRT/BMT line with IRT-sized platforms.
A little history: Way back in the day, the IRT ran to Queens Plaza from the 42nd St line (as it still does today) AND the 2nd Ave/Queensboro Bridge El. From QBP either IRT line could go to either Corona/Flushing or Astoria. When the BMT 60th St. tunnel was completed in the late 1920's it terminated at QBP, and from there the BMT ran IRT-sized shuttles to both Astoria and Flushing. Eventually the 2nd Ave El was taken down. Some time after unification (was it 1949? This was well before I was born) the Astoria line was converted to BMT specs, and thus the Astoria became BMT while the Flushing was now exclusively IRT.
It's only since 1987 that the specifically N ran on the Astoria line. Before that, it was the R, or before that the RR, that ran that way while the N ran via the Queens Blvd IND. (And in the 1970's, it was the EE that ran on the QB line, and I don't know WHAT the N had for a northern terminal.)
How'd I do? Well, that's nothing you can't get from elsewhere on this site.
:-) Andrew
The N terminated at 57 St/7 Av
Andrew, that's a great thumbnail history.
Before the N ran to Queens, its northern terminus was 57th St./7th Ave. Back then, it was always called the Sea Beach line - in fact, the Sea Beach Express-- it ran express in Brooklyn, over the bridge, and express on Broadway in Manhattan.
Coincidentally, before the street names in Queens were all unified (early in the 20th century), 31st Street in Astoria was called 2d Avenue. Thus the 2nd Ave. el trains ran on 2nd Ave. both in Mnamhattan and Queens.
Interesting. And today the R runs on Broadway both in Manhattan and Queens.
:-) Andrew
We had a thread a while ago on trains that ran on different streets that had the same name in different boros. The only other one, I think, was the A, running under Fulton St. in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
And the 1/9 on Broadway in Manhattan and the Bronx, even if it is the same Broadway.
And before 1957 the northern terminus for the Sea Beach was Times Square-42nd Street.
IIRC, the R-32 roll sign says (N) Astoria/B'way/Sea Beach (not necessarily in that order)
>>>IIRC, the R-32 roll sign says (N) Astoria/B'way/Sea Beach (not necessarily in that order) <<<
THAT is the exact order. I own an R32 sign box with current signs>
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd love to get my hands on some original R-32 roller curtains. Seeing "Coney Island" backlit in green was a treat. Of course, the very first N train I rode on had "57th St." lit up in green.
Sorry...I don't have any extras. I bought mine at the last Transit Museum auction about 6 years ago. I do have them lit up in greem though.
Peace,
ANDEE
The old Southern Division titles aren't used officially anymore; however, subway maps do include them in fine print adjacent to each pertinent line. In the route description section, sadly, the N is listed simply as "Broadway Local" in keeping with standard practice of designating each route by its Manhattan trunk line. The R-32s and R-38s feature the old titles on their side route signs where applicable, and the R-44s and R-46s can and do display them (F trains show "Culver Exp.). And Brooklynites still use those titles.
I have to work the N out of Astoria all next week and believe me, I'm hoping for nothing but R32's and slant R40's. Those R68/68A's are hellish.
By the way, in Astoria it's just called the N.
Wave as your come around the curve into QBP, even though my cubical does not have a window, I'll think of ya Haha...
The "N" has been home to just about every type of B Division subway car ever: going back in time, we have:
R68A, R68 (current)
R46 (70s)
R42 (summer of WB bridge closing, and originally 4500-4595)
R40M (summer of WB bridge closing)
R40 (some currently)
R38 (back in the 70s)
R32 (current)
R27/30 (60s, 70s)
R16 (just after the EE became the N)
Don't think the R44, R10, R11, R-6 family, R-7 family or R-9 ever ran there. R-1 and/or R-4, yes, occasionally.
AND: D-type triplexes, BMT standards, etc. Did the MS ever run there, I wonder, also I wonder if the SIRT E-types ran there.
The "N" has a very rich and varied history of rolling stock.
wayne
R42s and R40Ms did run on the N in the 70s.
Chaohwa
I rode on an R-42 N train in the summer of 1971. It rocketed along 4th Ave; those slits in the curtain walls at stations made a neat strobe effect. I still wished I had ridden on R-32s, though. The R-32s have never strayed from the N ever since they arrived on the scene in 1964-65. You could always find at least a trainset or two there. In fact, to me the R-32s are to the N the way the R-10s are to the A (and the R-36s to the 7).
There were reported sightings of R-10s on the N on a few occasions. IIRC, William Padron says he's heard of this.
When did the designation "N" come into existence for the first time?
Peace,
ANDEE
Same time all the other BMT lines were given letters. West End was originally T.
When the R-27s were delivered in 1959-60.
Quite the office.
Not as nice as yours...
Thinking about how crushed the Lex is, I thought of a different way the express/local services should be layed out to provide maximum passenger flow. The local tracks should be the two inner tracks, and the express should be the outer ones. The local stops would be island platforms and the express tracks would pass them on the outside, like that one line in Chicago. At express stops, you would have two island platforms, and two side platforms for the express. This way, you could still have the cross platform transfer for express to local, and also an additional platform for the express. The expresses would open their doors on both sides of the train and it would be a lot easier for passengers to enter and exit the train, instead of fighting their way to one side of the train.
The way I understand it is that the Lex express is the overcrowded line and the local isn't as bad. With this layout, you'll be able to transfer from uptown to downtown at every station, and you'll have more platform area for people to stand on and to get on/off at the expresses. Of course actually constructing this would be next to impossible on an existing line, both from an engineering and a financial point of veiw, but it would be interesting.
Next time you're in NY, take a look at the IND station at Columbus Circle and the BMT station at Chambers Street. Each has/had separate platforms for exiting passengers -- none of which is in use any more.
I would respectfully point out that island platforms are more expensive to build than side platform stations in some situations because you can't build island platforms without having a mezz level above them (unless you put your subway entrance smack in the middle of the street (for an example of that kind of lunacy, visit the Broadway IRT station at 72nd Street.
In short, if money is no object and you have a street that's a lot wider than Lexington Avenue, you have a great idea.
The reason for express on the center tracks has more to do with keeping them as straight as possible (for speed) whereas the local tracks, running trains at a generally lower speed are curved at approaches and exists to platforms shared with expresses so that the express tracks can remain straight into the platforms.
If it were reversed, then in order to accomodate local platforms, you'd have to curve the express tracks out and around each local stop which would require wider tunnels (if you wanted to keep the express runs straight) with a lot of wasted space between stations.
As clumsy as it may seem, there was logic applied to the design.
I completely understand the logic of the way the tracks are set up now, it takes up less space than my layout. It's a natural layout. The builders of the tunnels had no way of knowing how many people would eventually travel on them. However, are curves on the express tracks that big of a deal? The curves on my layout probably wouldn't be that severe to where the trains would have to slow down that much. The extra spce my layout would take up would only be where the tracks have to spread apart before entering an island platform. The island platform would be as wide as two side platforms (or a little wider), so the station width wouldn't be much diferent than a regular layout. At express stations, you would have the extra side platforms, but so did the original IRT stations.
And the side platforms at Brooklyn Bridge and Union Square were closed off very early on. IIRC, they were still used at 96th St. until the vestibule rolling stock was retired.
If the curves were VERY gradual it might work. Then again, I remember 50-55 MPH express runs where that would be a concern. :)
This sceme also makes ADA access easier, since you only need one elevator for all trains.
-Hank
YThis sceme also makes ADA access easier, since you only need one elevator for all trains.
Only if you put the street access in the middle of the street. If you have street access from each sidewalk, you will need an elevator from each sidewalk to the mezz level and a third elevator from the mezz to the platform.
(If this were StarTrek, of course, you could just install a turbolift that travels both vertically and horizontally.)
Heard on the news that China is building a Maglev train that will reach 240mph. The 10 mile line will link up Shanghai to the new Pudong area. The project is expected to be completed by 2003.
I think it's pretty sad for the USA to take just as much time just to fix one side of a bridge, or a build short 1/2 mile stretch of subway.
It seems other countries have their (rail) priorities straight. But once again, the U.S. is in love with the automobile. When will we ever learn that cars are inefficient, wasteful modes of transport?
240 mph for a scant 10 mile strech? They must be some fast-ass accelerators. Hopefully they have plans to extend it, because 10 miles for such a fast train is stupid.
They probably will extend it, perhaps up to 20 miles. Maglev is pretty cool, does anyone know where I can get pictures of it?
Also can Maglev be used underground?
No and yes.
And using this technology for 20 miles is just as foolish as for 10 miles. Assuming an average speed of 120 mph for maglev and 60 mph for conventional rail over a distance of 20 miles, you save 10 minutes.
The Transrapid consortium is *desperate* to sell the technology to *anyone*. I doubt China wants it as a transport medium.
BTW - they're gonna be popping a guy into space any year (month) now. That's a scary thought.
Using maglev?
I read in a book that there was supposed to be a Maglev in Florida. Guess like so many other U.S. rail projects, it fell through.
I'll say one thing for the Bushes, Maglev is a $$$1 BILLION DOLLAR$$$ a mile Sewer and Jeb was right to kill it, Conservatism has it's place.
Who said liberals were the only ones ever to show a little common sense?
"When will we ever learn that cars are inefficient, wasteful modes of transport? "
We've already learned that. Everyone knows it. But Americans are willing to forego the benefits of rail for a false sense of freedom and personal independence.
they had an interesting article on a reporter's trip to boston with the acela express
scientists find railfans have rare genetic disorder
In that story, the author says all Northeast Corridor train will be reserved. It is sad to see these unreserved trains gone. Those unreserved trains gives me flexibility to travel to New York.
Chaohwa
That doesn't mean they will necessarily be full.
Also, remember that many reporters are transit-challenged to the point where they have difficulty getting their facts right.
Can't say that I'll miss the unreserved trains. As a reserved-seat passenger on perennially-overcrowded trains that had both reserved and unreserved coaches I would often find myself unable to leave my seat for the restroom or wherever because of passengers with unreserved tickets standing in the aisles, and on more than one occasion taking my seat while I was gone and refusing to give it up when I returned.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nice article, thanks for the link, Paul.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yep, folks...the semster break is over, which means a return to the H.U.B. for me. I hope to do some railfanning on the "D" Riverside Green Line during rush hour sometime soon....in search of some triple car trains. Too bad there are no type 8s in service yet, but eventually we'll see them again :-) -Nick
Don't hold your breath...
January 31st is the THIRD ANNIVERSARY of the delivery of the first Type-8 trolley to Boston. And you think the R-142s have been slow to enter service!
There's not one Type-8 in service yet. Here's why. Since this was written, a few cars were in service for a brief time, but were then pulled (last July) after two derailments. The MBTA and Breda are still negotiating...
Why is there no accurate history of SEPTA's P&W (route 100) line, relating to the rail fleet? On all of the sites I have visited, the CTA cars that were used on the line, as well as the Single car MFL cars that were running on the line, were not mentioned at all! In fact, these sites said that the Bullet cars were running right up the the time the N-5 cars came. Now, I know for a fact that the Bullet cars were not running up to that time, since I have ridden the line quite often before the N-5s and have never seen a Bullet car except for one time when it was parked at 69th Street Terminal in the track that used to have trains that were left on layover. Why are the CTA cars and the MFL cars never mentioned?! These were the only trains I ever saw running on the line, not the Bullet cars, although I know the Bullet cars had been the "main" cars of the line's history.
Are you volunteering to contribute a more accurate history?
Or just complaining?
-Dave
Well, considering the fact that I was little at the time, I would, but I have no idea when those mini trains came to the P&W or the history of the MFL look alike single cars. I remember the Red White and Blue versions of the ex-CTA cars, and that at every door there was a fare collection machine as well as a conductor. Also, to request a stop, there was just a little buzzer that alerted the driver. This was the same for the MFL look alikes, which ran with these trains until the N-5 cars were being put into service. I remember with the MFL cars, the place which usually displayed AB for the el trains displayed NO. I wonder what that stood for? Anyway, in a way I'm sorta complaining and in a way I would like to provide a more accurate history. Unfortunately, there is only one picture, that's right, ONE, of the CTA cars, and that was when it was out of service and placed on that side pocket track that isn't really used anymore, when the N-5 cars dominated the line. Does anyone know anymore about the trains used on this line AFTER the Bullet cars, but BEFORE the N-5 cars?
As far as the Almond Joys are concerned, where the "A-B" signs were at, it actually had "N-B", the "N" stood for Norristown and the "B" stood for Bryn Mawr. The CTA cars had a conductor and a farebox on the left rear door (if you can call it that). There were 5 sets of CTA married pairs and 5 single unit Almond Joys. And the Almond Joys were named after the Space Shuttles. e.g.
601: Enterprise
602: Discovery
605: Columbia
617: Atlantis
619: Endeavour
631 was also going to Norristown, but was retained on the MFL because it did not have center door controls.
619 was The Discovery.
Wow, there were only 5 sets of CTA married pairs? I thought there were a lot more.
There were only five and they were poor performers on the line due to their slow acceleration. I rode them a few times while they had this assignment and at least one of the pairs (and I can't recall which one) was a very rough riding one.
The El cars always seemed out of place there to me. I guess I was too accustomed to them on the El and nowhere else.
By the way, all 600-series cars had the door control panel adjacent to the center doors for use on overnight 'owl' runs on which the conductors collected fares. This is the way the doors were operated when the cars were on the P & W. I recall a standing (no pun intended) rule that the conductors were not allowed to sit during the runs, either on the El cars or their CTA counterparts.
By the way, there is a good compilation of the P & W, including coverage of the CTA/El car period, in the very last issue of Passenger Train Journal (12/96). I would say it's a ver good piece but I also want to stay modest...
I'll have to check the capsule information on this site once again to see how extensively this period was covered.
>>all 600-series cars had the door control panel adjacent to the center doors for use on overnight 'owl'runs on which the conductors collected fares<<
Not true. 601-630 had the door controls at the center door, 631-646 did not.
I'll stand corrected, but I recall hearing this before and then learning that several others managed to have them installed during their careers. I thought 631 was in this category. I'm pretty certain 641 and 644 did also.
The first class started yesterday 1/22/01. For what I heard 30 T/O all sent to the A Division. Next class will most likey be 40 T/O, don't know the start date for this one.
Robert
Heaven help us......
Peace,
ANDEE
Whatever. No matter what my staunch opposition may be towards this, it's still going to happen. It's only a matter of time before these people start f*cking up. I just hope that the problems do not trickle down to us (betcha it will).
The second off-the-street class will start February 26, and I will be in that class.
Tony Reid
Vice Chairman
New York Division, Electric Railroaders' Association
Expect a lot of hostility in the beginning. Most of the other T/O's are not looking forward to the first off the street T/O classes.
Does anyone know if they are giving another off-the-street T/O test anytime soon?
thanks
wayne
Are you thinking of giving it a go?
Steve, it is a lifelong dream of mine. But right now it's out of reach.
wayne
No test soon, the list has to be in effect at least a year. Then they can renew it, each year for up to 4 years. Plus there are 1000's that got 70% or better so it is here for at least a year (don't see them exhusting the list in one year).
I remember we had a discussion about that last October. I hope you can still realize that dream someday. Good luck!
Dear Fellow Subtalkers:
Well, I've gotten my wife addicted also now to Subtalking and even several friends as well. I've/They've convinced themselves that they now wanna become CRs, SAs, CTAs and TOs and such. . .Can anyone reccomend a good civil service exam preparation guide for these novices, and tell us where to by them? Peace Thomas
The next T/O test (promotional or open) is not to be given for another 4 years from what I've heard. It may not be available to the public (the last test may have been a one shot deal) so I STRONGLY suggest that you take the test for either Cleaner, Bus Operator(TA), Property Protection, Station Agent (unlikely), or Conductor if you want to become a Train Operator. You only need one day in title to take a promotional test.
I have taken, and passed with a score of 95.0% the Open Exam for Conductor, given 26 June 1999. I withdrew my name from the list on 12 December 2000, and was assured that if I wished to have it reinstated I would need to visit Centre Street. The reasons that I withdrew my name from consideration were PURELY ECONOMICAL. I simply can not afford to do it. Having read your response to my query, AND the other "OPEN POST" I may have to reconsider my options.
wayne
Reinstate your name, you will go to the bottom of the list so it would be awhile before you are called. You can be reinstated once unless an agency disqualfies you and you have it over turned.
The only upcoming Exam I can see would be Bus Operator. Conductor should be a 4 Year List. They just had a Property Protection Exam with over 7,000 people who taken that test me included I'm still waiting the results but its not important because I made it to C/R. Station Agent is like you said unlikely but may finish the old list up. Cleaner's job went to the WEPS.
Bobby, was there any particular reason why this class was sent to the A Division?
Yeah. To give us "B" guys a break.
For what I heard is that it's becouse all of the last class of Promation went to the B Division.
Robert
Enough of you old timers screwing up on B last year, so they are giving you a break. >GD&R<
(No 75 Ft Cars to Nassau?)
Geez, to think I could have had my old job back without being a conductor first and waiting 2 years or more. But then I like my small town living too well.
This is I'm sure an unusual situation, I hope it works out for the TA but then they used to make bus drivers motormen too, guess they still do, who had no rail experience or knowledge of operations and rules and it worked.
If you are saying the Bus Operators don't make good Train Operators then think again. I way a Bus Opt. and I am only about 4 week from being on my own and I am having no problem the operating the train and understaning of rules of work and how to over come brake downs.
Robert
I meant nothing of the sort. The end of that post did say it worked. Just the thought that it seemed logical to promote people out of train service ranks which they did. But they also promoted many bus operators who did as good a job as anybody else. We all got the same training. My apologies if there was a misunderstanding.
No porblem.
Robert
Sunday I had a T/O who was a former Bus Operator. He only had 2 months on the road but he was one of my best operators so far. It was funny they tried to spit us up because we are both on Probation. I mean I had only 2 weeks and he had 2 months. However no crews where willing to spit up so they had to send us down the road together. Ofcause a T.S.S did interview both of us before we made the first trip.
Just hope he remembers that the RED part of the light is on the wrong side from when he drove the bus Haha...
Sounds like the grousing I heard back at Coney - I had been a conductor on the road for six weeks before getting called up on the motorman title and into school for it. This was at the tail end of the massive retirement wave in the late 60's into the early 70's and anyone who wanted a handle could have one. But the oldtimers were extremely resentful of us "kids" coming on after the insane amount of time they had to bide time as conductors before moving up.
But I'm sure they wouldn't have hired off the street if they had enough in the pipeline from the road. Or is this just another attempt to water down the union? Wonder if they'll be putting on dispatchers off the street.
As I can see in some of these posting theirs lot of T/O waiting and hoping for us NEW T/O to fail. I just hope that they can go back and remember the first time they became T/O's. I know it was a different back than with the job aways be a promotion job. I know that we will do our best out there. Thanks
THIS IS A GENERAL POST.
Well put yourself in my position. I had to survive on minimum wage for the length of the Conductor's training class which was $110 a week for 2 1/2 months. Then I started at a wage 40% lower than everyone elses. While the other C/R's were making $18.90 an hour, I was making $11.50 an hour for the same job. Then when I was finally eligible to take the T/O test, I had to wait 39 months after the test was over to be called, and I was at the TOP of the list.
Bottom line is that persons like yourself don't have to pay any "dues". Everyone else had to start at the minimum wage and then at the starter wage and wait 3 to 4 years to move up to the top rate of pay. You guys come waltzing off the street, get minimum wage for MAYBE a week, then go directly to top yard rate of pay while everyone else in every other title has to go through financially what I've mentioned above. And you didn't have to toil at a lower title to EARN your handles. Notice the word EARN is in caps.
There was no cleaning up sh*t or vomit. Or worrying about rats climbing up your pants when you pull the garbage out of the large cans like a cleaner has to do.
No worrying about robberies and worrying about unsavory people hanging around your booth or having people give you rolled up bills to pay for tokens, then when you unwrap the bills, they've spit in them and it gets all over your hands. Or having reliefs steal from your cash drawer while you're away and then you have to make up the difference out of your own pocket to save your job like a Station Agent has to go through.
No having to get spit on or having bottles and rocks and even worse thrown at you, or having passengers berate you personally for service problems that are in no way your fault like a Conductor has to go through. I know a Conductor on the C who narrowly missed being scarred for life after someone threw battery acid at him while he was observing the platform. He ducked just in time.
I'm not even going to try to describe what a Bus Operator has to go through. B/O's have the most stressful job in the TA.
Do you see what I'm getting at? You bypass ALL of this. You bypass the stress, financial difficulties and the time that is sacrificed to gain the title of Train Operator. Is this sour grapes? Absolutely. Now I know that you and other individuals out there who are coming off the street into the T/O title have families and other responsibilities to take care of. You do what you've got to do. But do not expect all the other T/O's (like myself) to accept you. Some will but I am not amongst that group. You (and others like you) will receive a lot of hostility when you hit the road. You will have T/O's who will refuse to train you (like myself). You also will have TSS's, Dispatchers and even Conductors who will feel the same way. All because of what I've mentioned, you didn't pay any dues. And I don't give a flying damn if you're a SubTalker or not.
You bypass the stress, financial difficulties and the time that is sacrificed to gain the title of Train Operator. Is this sour grapes? Absolutely ... You do what you've got to do. But do not expect all the other T/O's (like myself) to accept you. Some will but I am not amongst that group. You (and others like you) will receive a lot of hostility when you hit the road ... All because of what I've mentioned, you didn't pay any dues. And I don't give a flying damn if you're a SubTalker or not.
Stop and think for a minute. Are these new T/O's personally responsible for changing the TA's employment policies so as to eliminate the "dues paying"? Of course not. So why be so hostile toward them? You'll only make yourself miserable.
It's a damn shame colleagues can't work together. Why blame these off the street guys? Blame the system! If the opportunity is presented to someone who needs a job and can make the money, what are they supposed to do, turn it down? The old argument might arise that these off the street guys know nothing about the system, and might not be good at the job as a seasoned veteran. But for every bad person who's out there, there's at least one competent operator that can do the job the right way.
You guys who don't want to see off the street Train Operators, need to blame the system, for all of the policies implemented. What about the Union? Didn't they do anything to stop the City/TA from giving this open competitive test, or did they just simply give in?
-Stef
Hey Zman,
How do you operate a Transit System with an air of hostility, when personnel don't work together? If you refuse to train somebody, doesn't that lead to disciplinary actions taken by Transit?
-Stef
Also, Old Head vs FNG hostilities are used by managements everywhere to divide and steamroll the union. No, I am not an FNG, nor do I work in the transit field, but I do have 23 years in a union shop and have seen what that kind of hostility can do at barganing time. If you are a professional, you will take those guys under your wing and teach them to be the best T/Os they possibly can be. If they Fu*k up, and hit another train head on (possibly yours) GET A MIRROR because YOU are the true cause of the accident.
Point well taken! Can't we all get along?
-Stef
A T/O or any other TA hourly worker has the right to refuse a student. Only supervision must accept students.
Yep ... this is pretty much the same kind of thing I ran into when I was an egg with the old "ta" and got turned loose, and exactly the same arguments I heard back in 1971 when I got my own ill-gotten handles. I was off the railroad in about four weeks in disgust. On top of the same exact attitude, I was assigned to Stillwell. Anyone on the line knows that the Stillwell folks are even "more so" than the rest of the railroad. Try sitting down at a table uninvited. :)
While I understand fully the motivation behind it (you get to take an awful LOT of crap day in and day out and years of it just sour the milk more) but I was devastated by the treatment I got when I was on the railroad. And I did what many of the new folks will find themselves doing. I called in sick one day and never came back. And I didn't regret leaving the ta since. It's a shame, I was really into it and could have done it. I was so rattled by the crap though after a few days on my own that I kissed a layup in front of me on my last day. So what is predicted here is very likely to come to pass.
Just some food for thought for y'all ... thanks for bringing back the bad memories ...
I work for a major corporation in the private sector that has both union and non-union positions. zman, do you have any idea what you would be if you worked for my employer and displayed an attitude like that? Give up? Here's the answer:
UNEMPLOYED
A crappy attitude like yours doesn't cut it in the real world - and shouldn't at the TA either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
although zman's attitude is not politically correct or very nice, i do believe it honestly and accurately reflects a lot of the anger that people who came up the hard way toward the situation created when the mta opened the doors to people right off the street... i honestly did not follow all the details of what led to the mta's decision to do this... however, i can understand the workers who came through the system feeling that their job
security is being threatened... it seems like a really hot issue, to which being told "to be nice" is not really addressing the anger that people are experiencing... i am reminded of an equally hot issue of preference being given to members of minority groups in gaining entry to colleges and jobs ( i forget the name used for process )... tremendous anger was expressed by people who were denied admission because others were given preferential treatment... i am not equating the two situations... i guess what i am saying is that powerful emotions are kicked up when people feel like their home turf is being screwed with...
i feel it's okay to express these feelings here... as for acting on them... well this nation has a history of people doing just that when their sense of "entitlement" is being messed with... people's lives are affected on all sides of the issue, as described by selkirktmo's experience working for the ta...
what do i really feel?... it makes me feel grateful that i am self employed and that i am judged by myself and the people i tutor for who i am and what i do... i don't have the stomach for all the intrigues that go with organizations...
In retrospect though, if I hadn't been driven out of the TA by the Stillwell boys, I'd probably still be living in the chitty. So I didn't make out all that badly. I've been lucky enough in life to have been able to do many things I always wanted to do - TA, DJ'ing at WNEW-FM back in the hey-days, anchoring the news on a TV station (OK, it was WFTI-TV54 in Poiughkeepsie, but camera time is camera time nonetheless. Got to own radio stations, got to work for the State of New York, vicarious thrills with buddies of mine while Conrail was still open ... but at the time, I was really cheesed off by what I got put through at the TA because of the short time extremely rapid advancement all those retirements caused in the system at a time when NOTHING worked right and anything that could roll, regardless of condition, did. It was a genuine adventure and great thrill while it lasted. The sour folks I left behind continued on their own trajectories as well I'm sure. I just feel bad about having been an irritant to so many people that, aside from the issue, seemed really cool. Ah well ... life trudges on. :)
And the sadder thing is, like domestic violence, the abuse
will continue to propagate through each "generation". As
we can see, zman is determined to make sure any new T/O
has at least as bad a time as he did. Over the long term,
if everyone maintains this attitude, the working conditions
can only get worse. It takes a personal, emotional sacrifice
to turn that around and say "I'm going to fix the injustice
done to me by making sure it doesn't happen to the FNG"
I really do understand ZMan's point too here - there's a hell of a lot of little "secrets" in the railroad that you just ain't gonna pick up in school car and there is a tendency of new people to come on a railroad thinking they have all the answers ... the union manipulates the hell out of people so they'll pay (I'll just bet the shop is *still* Local 100 TWU and not a "better" union like UTU) and turns them on one another so that the deals TWU cuts with management isn't taken out on the union. That was also the game when I worked there. I really didn't think much of Michael Quill's house and it didn't get much better after him. Of course at Stillwell, old Mike was a Saint and there was a statue of him outside the tower. Just kidding. :)
But yeah, your union dangles a carrot for years pointing to this great promotional path if only you jump through all the hoops, take all the chit runs and do split shifts. Then suddenly it's turned into a cracker jack prize and you're supposed to just get over it after jumping through all those hoops? I really do understand the anger given the way it was used over the years ...
But it SURE wasn't fun being on the receiving end of it ...
>>>But yeah, your union dangles a carrot for years pointing to this great promotional path if only you jump through all the hoops, take all the chit runs and do split shifts. Then suddenly it's turned into a cracker jack prize and you're supposed to just get over it after jumping through all those hoops? I really do understand the anger given the way it was used over the years ...<<<
Exactly.
Couple of things for Selkirk: Yes it's still TWU 100, and Stillwell/Coney Island Yard is probably worse now than when you left. Ugh!
Yeah, I've heard ... my real problem at Stillwell is I got along just fine with my homeys at a time when some thought the line was for white boys only. I didn't know the "traditions" when I landed so of course I failed to observe them. Then I refused to modify my behavior and my friendships on the line to suit the jamokes.
My sympathies on the TWU ... might as well be a BLE shop. Heh.
Also they did away with split shifts in RTO.
>>>I work for a major corporation in the private sector that has both union and non-union positions. zman, do you have any idea what you would be if you worked for my employer and displayed an attitude like that? Give up? Here's the answer: UNEMPLOYED <<<
Hate to break the news to you, but I DON'T work for your employer and I DON'T work in the private sector. As long as I do not violate any laws and follow the rules, I can be the nastiest bastard on the job and there's nothing that the TA can do about it. So my opinion stands.
And your attitude is why you would not last two minutes in a private sector job, union or non union.
Yeah, but I already knew that. Attitude or no attitude, if I had to work in the private sector, I'd yank all my hair out. Feh.
>>As long as I do not violate any laws and follow the
rules, I can be the nastiest bastard on the job and there's
nothing that the TA can do about it<<
which is a major loophole, because by my standards your stated norms are a drag on the operation.
David, he just doesn't care what people think.
Like I said in a prior post, I will rant on & on here on the message board, but while I'm at work, I'll just leave the new T/O's alone to do their thing. I am strongly against these new hires, but there's nothing that I can do about it.
Huge Apoligies to Zman 179, he is incorrectly credited in the response I just posted not even 2 minutes ago entitled "very long rant about the very long rant. . ." as having written the "Very long rant about the new Train Operators" when it fact it was posted by one John J. Blair
Let me respond that I'm disappointed myself in that the TA is hiring off the street T/Os. We all know it is revenge for not agreeing to Train worker, prepackaged pick, and other demands in RTO during the contract negotiating. there was a similar sentiment against breaking in those who were forced out of structures and the painters and carpenters who would have been fired due to the contract which back in 1994 did not yet have the no layoff clause within. There were people who didn't want to break me in when finding out I was a cleaner. I now have an exemplarary record of safety, sick leave and overall good attitude to those less fortunate who don't. We can't do anything about this to prevent those from getting a job and our security in NYC is dependant on those newcomers to have the same choices we did. The same jobs we started with are on the chopping block, clerks and MVMs, cleaners vs. WEPS. We live in a different society then we did under Reagon, with Nixon, with Ravitch with Gunn with Ronan. But there are things we can do to make our futures a little more secure with the little we got. A few years back, a T/O that was breaking in could not find one train operator willing to train him. The TA called a TSS to do it. If you think two hours isn't enough money, the TSS gets nothing for it. If you worry about getting into trouble when a student hits a signal or overruns a platform, then you aren't in control of your train anyway and shouldn't be taking them at all. The TA is bent on retaliating for the givebacks that weren't to be. They will continue to make our lives a living hell but it isn't the fault of the workers to be, it is the fault of the workers that are. By further blaming the new guy instead of school car separates the fabric of this once great TWU. What we need to do in this case is the same thing we did when the carpenters and welders were forced into our titles. Pick the best of the road warriors with union backgrounds, good records and morale and train them as well as most of us were. I'd rather see union orientated personel leading these new generation of T/Os then some company man who like Robert Luciano, wouldn't want to be there anyway. If these guys start hitting homeballs, we all pay. Lets clean up our own act before we judge others.
Reading Engine Brakes post kind of puts it all in perspective. I'M STILL PISSED OFF. But I realize that there's nothing that anyone can do about it.
However, my emotions are still as very strong as when I typed my original post. I think that the best way for me to go right now is to just do my 8 hours and go home and keep my mouth shut and not vent while I'm at work.
Now that that's been taken care of there's only one problem, if you thought that my post was rough, it was very mild compared to some of the venom that I've heard at work. Especially at Stillwell (hear that Selkirk?)
However, my emotions are still as very strong as when I typed my original post. I think that the best way for me to go right now is to just do my 8 hours and go home and keep my mouth shut and not vent while I'm at work.
Not venting at work is definitely your best decision. While I've never worked in transit, I do have two decades' work experience at a number of different employers, and I can assure you of one thing with 100% confidence - no one at work will be interested in your complaints. It's nothing personal, but just the way the world works.
He's more than welcome to gas off here about it ... I know precisely what's bugging him and fighting the union ain't much help either.
Howdy ... ayup. I sure don't mean to put anyone off by putting it this way, but it was the way my TMO at the time explained it to me, "stand clear of the guidos or I will have to burn a watermelon on your lawn for the grief you're causing me" ...
Here's the deal - I ended up at the bottom of the pile, lived at 205th and Bainbridge and was a conductor. The pick I was handed had me on my home train, the D but reporting to the OTHER END. To make matters worse, it was a split shift - RH only with a four hour layover at Coney every day. Got to see all the alleys, all the arcades and it got boring. Wasn't allowed in the car shops which would have been fun (though I snuck in whenever I could).
When I finished school car and went out on the road, guess where I got assigned again? No, the faces were none too happy with the "new kid" showing up again after they thought they'd gotten rid of him and now he's back, this time with a handbag. Uh-oh. :)
I will just say this. My Opinion is you should earn your handles. My dad was a Trackman for 4 Years and he hated it. Plus not only did he have to do a job he disliked he had to work Midnights. All of this to get to his goal of becoming a Train Operator. I could have even been a Trackworker but I go a bad score which in a way was a blessing since I got a great score on the C/R Exam and finished High School before getting called. I may have been able to get away with taken the Train Operator Exam even if I didn't have the Work Experance Requirment by time of Application Period. Some Transit Workers that know me think I should have taken the Exam. However how could I do something that I don't support. I feel for myself Conductor was a good starting ground. I hope to take the Next Promotional Train Operators Exam. When the day comes and I make it to T/O no one can ever say I didn't earn my Handles. I may even think about a move to T.S.S. However it to early in the game to think about that stuff.
Even if we all don't like the idea of OC T/O's we should welcome all New Transit Employees. Everyone was new once and no one should forget how it was to be the new kid on the block. OC T/O Candidates will have to be stong to make it. Not only will they have a strickly runned training cause because alot of T.S.S don't like the idea of them being here but also it will be very easy for a O/C Train Operator to be fired in there one year probation. On the No.1/9 Line the Line SUPT has a notice saying any T/O who hits a signal or overruns a station will get 30 days in the street or if on probation sent back to there former title. If your a OC Train Operator you don't have A former title therefore they go back to the street.
When I was in C/R school car they told as be more careful if your working with a T/O off the street. How many people will stay when they find out the whole railroad is out to get them.
>>>I will just say this. My Opinion is you should earn your handles. My dad was a Trackman for 4 Years and he hated it. Plus not only did he have to do a job he disliked he had to work Midnights. All of this to get to his goal of becoming a Train Operator.<<<
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!
This perfectly illustrates what "paying dues" is all about.
Hating to ask and add more fuel to the fire, but...Does this mean I didn't earn my handles because I was only a CR for less than 2 years, 80% of which was spent working AMs? Do I still need to get grief from the old-timers who had to work a year or two in the yards before being allowed in passsenger service, because I got thrown to the road as soon as I finished School Car? Those guys don't think half of us have 'earned' our handles since we didn't do what they had to. At what point does it stop?
In a previous job, I twice hired my own immediate supervisor, because I felt I wasn't ready for that job. The result? Two of my best friends; and, when I finally did take the job myself, much more self-confidence because of the additional time I had to learn. It could happen that these guys are the best things to happen in Transit (or not) in a long time; but if our minds are already made up about it, we'll never know.
>>>Does this mean I didn't earn my handles because I was only a CR for less than 2 years, 80% of which was spent working AMs?<<<
Not at all. Everyone should "pay dues" like you did. As far as the AM's go, luck and dues are two different things :)
ZMan this message is to thank you. I've been working from the age of 15 why might you asks? Why because I wasn't well off like some people not saying that you was. But after high school I think I paid my dues by servicing this country in the US Army for 6 years after that what did I get but a kick in the ass from all these companies out here. So what do I do hmmmm well back to work doing what I was doing before entering the service making freakin copies. But hey I got lucky one day, I saw an ad in the paper for copy operator working for the MTA, I said hey this might be something here. A job that might lead to something, shit was I wrong. I was stuck in a dead end job making little money and even less respect. But hey I had to feed my family right so I stood there for 4 1/2 years. Into one day a friend/co-worker of mine told me about the Open test for Train Operator. At first I said hmmmm sounds great really good money and a change in careers. Maybe even a job that can help me put my two kids through college. But the shit job that I had didn't give me the time off to go and get the application.
So on the last day of filing my friend/co-worker asked me if I file. Which I didn't, so I made a decide to say screw it I'm leaving half day and going to 18 Washington to pick up the papers and send it in. Which I did, now came the hard part taking the test. But to my surprise I got a 100, so one year later I'm here in training making sure to bust my ass to learn everything I need to know about the system. ZMan I might not have paid my dues in the TA but I'll tell you one thing I've paid my dues to the US government, MTAHQ and life...............Thanks Again
From one newbie to another...I think you and I will do just fine as T/O's.
Not that I needed to be challenged, but - after reading Zman's post - I'm even MORE DETERMINED now to succeed, so that the theory that "off-the-street" people cannot cut it will be shown not to be 100% accurate.
I have the pleasure of knowing a few T/O's, and all of them have expressed their best wishes to me, as I begin to pursue a career I've often thought about over the years. I've taken the Bus Operator exam three times, and scored well enough to be appointed all three times, but I simply chose not to switch jobs. Although both my dad and my father-in-law are retired Bus Operators, being a T/O is something I've always wanted to be.
The wonderful thing about life is that different people have different thoughts/feelings about the same topic: for that I am truly grateful.
Tony Reid
Vice Chairman
New York Division, Electric Railroaders' Association
Soldier on, Tony!
Ones ability and aptitude for the T/O job, and not whats listed on one's TA resume determines who will become a good TO! :> Thomas
Hey Zman179, I can't recall ever seeing such wanton hostility from any Subtalker toward another class or group of people ever before!!
To begin with, your logic is seriously flawed-having been made to be miserable and do what others might call menial or dangerous work DOES NOT by any means make one a better T/O later on-it only makes one a far more embittered and hostile one later on, such as (no offense)yourself!!! Your anger, much of it about legitimate issues regarding your initial employment as a CTA and as a SA would be far better directed toward MTA management, whose responsibility it is to ensure safe and pleasant working conditions for all the hourly TA employees underneath them. The fact that they rarely make this a priority gives neither you nor anyone else a right to find a surrogate group of people to misdirect pent up anger and frustration toward. The TAs hiring and promotion practices have always been slow, inefficient and lethargic, to put it politely. But if you had it so bad and waited so long to ascend to your current position, then shouldn't YOU of all people especially be glad that others following in your footsteps don't any longer have to suffer and wait and wait the way you did? And whats all this JAZZ abouth refusing to train new off the street T/Os? Its a cold day in hell when I actually side with management in any emplotment or NYCTA related issue, but today I must-employees who refuse to follow the mandates and directives of their superiors by refusing to train new hirees quitely simply should be dismissed. Where does it say that NYCT is a democracy, anyway? How do you feel you should be able to pick and choose what you will do or who you will or will not train? An atmosphere where one class of people openly dispise and exclude another entire class can only lead to widespread chaos and innefficiency. A torch was passed to you when you became a T/O by the one who trained you, and now sans prejudice, dislike, and other associated issues you too must pass this torch to the new class of T/Os, regardless of how much or little previous TA tenure they have or don't. If you disagree with T/As hiring or T/O crew staffing policies, then see your shop steward, write a formal complaint to the MTA, or vote with your feet!!!! I see a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy quality in your shunning and refusing to train these T/Os- because they CAN'T get decent quality training or help from the veteran T/Os like you, some of them are inevitably BOUND to fail or have mishaps- and then people who think as you will say, "See? It was a mistake to hire T/Os right off the street, and this proves it!!" Oh, BTW: Don't be too quick to discount the quality or experience of these "off the street" T/O recruits- I TOO am near the top of the callback list and expect to be called any day now for the next T/O class, and have a one year certificate and an associates degree in railroad operations, and am 6 classes short of a Bachelors in Mass Rail Transit, all this PLUS I have experience in the long-haul passenger and freight railroad industries. But to you and others like you, I would just be just another "off the street" T/O hire who assumably flipped burgers or drove a cab on his last job, when I could propbably apply for nearly any entry-level management "suit" job at Jay Street and be you supervisor's supervisor!!! So you see, the only REAL "dues" to be paid are knowing one's job and having the willingness and ability to perform it well-It is my genuine love of the job and my desire to truly learn this agency and job from the bottom up that inspire me to first drive the train.
Cordially, "off the street T/O applicant Thomas"
Hey, zman, you BETTER be nice to this guy, he probably will be YOUR BOSS someday.
Hey Zman179, I can't recall ever seeing such wanton hostility from any Subtalker toward another class or group of people ever before!!
Sea Beach Fred against Democrats :)
Very well put, BTW
I am a Democrat and I respect Sea Beach Fred. Bush, on the other hand
I meant Sea Beach Fred's general distaste for the Democratic party, not vice-versa.
Well, I have a general distaste for the Republican party.
So do I, but not personally against Fred (only his political views). As you said earlier, "George Bush on the other hand..." :)
Its a cold day in hell when I actually side with management in any emplotment or NYCTA related issue, but today I must-employees who refuse to follow the mandates and directives of their superiors by refusing to train new hirees quitely simply should be dismissed. Where does it say that NYCT is a democracy, anyway? How do you feel you should be able to pick and choose what you will do or who you will or will not train?
OK, we have to get one thing straight here. When a TO (or CR) posts a student to introduce him to a specific line or yard, that person is putting his job on the line. IF the student does screw up, the TA will hold the instructor responsible and discipline him as they see fit for the violation. Should the chosen instructor be a probationary in title, they get demoted. In return for risking your job, all you are offered is 2 hours pay. You decide what's worth more - $48 pre-tax or 30 working days unpaid (or possible loss of job). Under these circumstances, there are TOs now who will not train students that come from in-house. When I posted a year ago, there were3 Yard TOs and 4 road TOs I was assigned to that would not take students, and I CANNOT fault them for it. The problem is that Training & Qualification, the people who assign students to jobs for posting, do just that - assign people to jobs, not to people interseted and willing to do this work.
Thank you for clarifying that Alex.
Funny thing is that on Thursday while working the R, I was assigned a student. I decided to take him (a rare feat indeed). Guess what, the T/O was a demoted TSS. He was the one who had the accident with the R142's at 239 Street Yard. He lost 7 years in title. Too bad, he really knew his stuff. It goes to show you, one bad day in the TA could change your life.
Yeah. He is the sacrificial lamb! He gets screwed for a design flaw in the R142.
I wish you both the best of luck should you be called up, but my opinion (while rather unpopular on this board) still stands.
I just would like the both of you to understand the situations that the two of you will encounter.
Your training has not been extended as opposed to other classes. B division is 5 1/2 months, A division is a little over 3 months. You will encounter a lot of hostility when you hit the yards and the road. My opinion is mild compared to the overwhelming majority of the hourly workers, so please prepare yourselves for some grief. I am saying this in a nice manner as a warning and without malice. Your instructors will be the first to warn you about what you should expect.
Also Thomas, you said:
>>>I TOO am near the top of the callback list and expect to be called any day now for the next T/O class, and have a one year certificate and an associates degree in railroad operations, and am 6 classes short of a Bachelors in Mass Rail Transit, all this PLUS I have experience in the long-haul passenger and freight railroad industries. But to you and others like you, I would just be just another "off the street" T/O hire who assumably flipped burgers or drove a cab on his last job, when I could propbably apply for nearly any entry-level management "suit" job at Jay Street and be you supervisor's supervisor!!!<<<
It has nothing to do about your education or experience. I know four TA employees who worked on the freights. Their opinion is ten times worse than mine so don't expect to be treated differently just because you worked freights as well. As far as they care, you're still coming off the street.
>>>So you see, the only REAL "dues" to be paid are knowing one's job and having the willingness and ability to perform it well<<<
True. But not in civil service titles whether it be TA, post office or whatever. You'll find out.
Let me explain something, you will be entering an hourly workforce that is largely uneducated and/or spiteful. Understand that while I plan to just stay quiet, some of these people are really going to try to make your lives miserable so please be aware of this. It will take a few years before you are finally "accepted", just like the six month conductors in the 1970's and the Cleaners/ Railroad Clerks in the 1980's but probably more so. The two of you will be paying "dues", but those are some dues that I would not look forward to be paying anytime soon. You are not only going to be under a microscope by the TA in a manner that no probationary employee has ever experienced, but the majority of the hourlies (CR and TO) will be against you as well. This is not my opinion, it is from the workers with whom I deal with on a daily basis.
Once again, good luck.
ZMan I really don't give two shits what you guys think. If you guys what to be assholes so be it. You can make your life as miserable as you want. I was hired to do a job and I'm going to do it. Its not our fault not enough workers could pass the exam. Its not our fault that some TA worker didn't want to be a T/O. So if you or your fellow New T/O haters want to fuck with us so be it. I will turn my back for the probation year but don't expect the same after that.
OOPS AGAIN! all please disregard the apology and retraction posted a few minutes ago= it appeard that it WAS indeed Zman179 that posted the offending "Very long rant. . ." mesage my own very long anti-rant concerned. Reverse apologies to John Blair and reinstate "credit" for the original post to Zman. Am relatively new to this bulletin board posting thing, and its somhwat difficult to ascertain who wrote the response to the response to the response to the massage youre reading without going all the way back unpteen times to find the original author! Piece and free love
I'll be there tonight, as long as work dosen't hold me up. I'm signed up behind about thirty others.
:-) Andrew "MisterK Kirschner
I just got back from the hearing. I spoke relatively early (was no. 11 on the list, but spoke a little later than that. Heard a lot of varying opinions, recognized the limitations Greenpoint residents are facing (and therefore am glad I and others advocated for ADA improvements to LIC stations...).
I spoke just after 8. My cause was restoration of the Hillsdie Express service. In fact, I was far from the only speaker asking for it. It was one of the most common topics. Not that that necessarily means that there is aggreement over it. But I did get applause at the mention--that and the suggestion to have a MetroCard transfer between Queens Plaza and Queensboro Plaza.
Of course, far and away the hottest topic for complaints was the cutting back of the G line to Court Square. There were a lot of unhappy people there regarding that.
And guess what? I also got to be on TV! I was interviewed by ABC Eyewitness news, and they used the clip, specifically my suggestion to restore Hillside Express service.
Andrew "MisterK" Kirschner
I think I saw you!!! Cool!! 100% agreement for the Hillside express! There is a chance it will happen, some rush hour Es are planned to go to 179 once the V starts, perhaps they will be express? Everyone today associates the E as the east-of-Continental express anyway, why not?
I'll be there tonight, as long as work dosen't hold me up. I'm signed up behind about thirty others.
:-) Andrew "MisterK" Kirschner
Does anyone know when the reconstruction will begin on the MFL West
Philly el structure? I often ride the MFL, as well as drive down
Market Street under the el when I visit friends in West Philly, and
I haven't noticed any work being done on the el. I know that the
West Philly el reconstruction has been pushed back several times over
the last few years (and I hope they keep pushing it back!! Love that
old el structure!!). Also, have there been any architect drawings of
the "new" West Philly el made available? Are there any websites
where I can see detailed previews of the West Philly el
reconstruction?
From what I have seen sketches of, it will be a structure with (1)
center support which will sit in the middle of Market st. The upper structure will "Y" out from the center. This is a popular type of structure in many rail systems. I can't wait to see it start, either. It will really open up Market st.
Chuck Greene
This is the replacement structure between stations, generally called the 'single column bent' option (as opposed to a double column bent, which is what is in place today). At the stations, the supports will be on the sidewalks.
Work does keep lapsing. ATC cabling and construction of the ATC buildings at 52nd and 63rd has started, so the timetable given in the SEPTA capital program has been met. The foundation/column stub contract and the actual 'guideway' contract for 63rd St west should be going out to bids shortly, from what I've heard. There will probably be 5-7 separate contracts when all is said and done with a total price tag of $400 million.
I don't know about web sites but SEPTA has published flyers showing a rendering of the 'new' el which it has trotted out to public meetings in the past.
While I really like seeing the "stub end" around 45th? St. where the tracks diverge to enter the tunnel and you can see where it used to continue as an el, the current structure is hellacious to drive under. I'm surprised there aren't more accidents. A wye-shaped structure would be much better for auto safety. According to SEPTA's FY2001 Budget, the construction will begin in the 3rd quarter of calender year 2000. The report begins on page 68 of the printed version, which is page 71 of the PDF format. It includes a few artists' renditions. Other factoids about the line: 26.66 miles, 28 stations, 175000 daily passengers, constructed 1907.
Only problem is that it's now the first quarter of 2001 with nothing going on at the moment. Rail construction slow starts are nothing new for SEPTA, or the Maryland MTA either. Double tracking of the Central Light Rail line was supposed to begin in late 1999. It's now 2001 and we're still waiting - for double track and pre-emptive signaling on Howard Street. That we've been waiting since Opening Day - 1992!!!
According to the budget I posted, physical work had commenced in 2000. Although there may be no sign of it to passengers, that doesn't mean it's not happening. Then again, one can only trust SEPTA as far as one can throw it, so who really knows.
Demolition has taken place at 52nd Street and at my station, 63rd St, the ATC building is under construction, the first wall and wirework already going up.
I have attended several of the community meetings held in West Philadelphia for the project.
Contracts for the actual El tear-down/build-up should go out in the Spring, from what I remember. Sections will be cut out and placed in over the weekends. The entire MFL Rehab, from 69th to Frankford, is supposed to be done by 2012(in SEPTA speak, that's...oh, forget it).
I hope these have not been asked before, but...
Will the W run peak direction express in Astoria? No real need for it to run local, the whole point of running it up there is because 3 trains can't turn at 57/7.
How are they planning on turning the trains at 34/6th? There's the lazy way (the one used on weekend GOs), which is to simply alternate them on B3 and 4, but that will cause a few problems: There's no next train indicator, and even if there was you don't know what the route is until you get down there (lest they put one of those Dekalb-style signs in too). Also, passengers continuing downtown will have to crossover if it pulls in on the "wrong" track, as will uptown passengers if the next train or the one they want is on the other track. Remember, people are not bright enough to use 42nd as their transfer point, unlike Brighton riders who know to transfer at Sheepshead Bay between Q and D. -- Then there's the not so lazy way, which is to simply run them down to W4 and cross them there. But not all weekday riders are completely ignorant, as the weeks go by they will notice the trains are still continuing down there, and will want them to do it in service (the crossover at W4 is much better, full mezzanine not ramp system, don't forget the transfer as well). Of course the problem with this is that it fouls the Grand st - Queensbridge shuttle (which will run until 63st is enacted permanently).
If they ran them to W4th then the "dash" would still be open, but the TA cannot do that, since it is cheaper to turn B and D at 34th.
You must have bottom yellow on departing local track at northbound 34th St or you can't go to the west side.
Last time this service plan was running (1986-1989)the D terminated on track B4 at 34th St. The B only came to 34th St. during the rush hours, as the K (former AA) was still running at this time. The B would terminate on Track B3. Whether the same scheme will be adopted this time around remains to be seen.
Like two train-two track terminals such as Flatbush Ave on the 2/5. I haven't really seen this station during rush hours, but unless something goes wrong I'm almost certain the 2 has its own track and the 5 does. The setup is weird, because the MAIN exit is the side of manhattan-bound track, meaning if you want a train on that track it is right in front of you, but if you want it on the other track, you have to go all the way around the end, {at least there's a next train indicator.}
Exactly. BTW, Flatbush Ave. was not intended to be a permanent terminal, hence the odd setup. I remember seeing a picture of the south end of the station from back in the 20's, and the tunnel does continue south. The passageway at the south end was an add-on when it was realized that this line would not be finished anytime soon. IIRC, it was supposed to go all the way down to Emmons Ave. in Sheepshead Bay.
...and soon. 2 tracks on the same level with a platform or 2 and a diamond crossover. Why, you ask?
1. When the Manny B swap occurs, trains will turn at 57/7 24/7. When an 'incident' occurs R trains cannot be sent through without some degree of difficulty or delay. The Q could turn at the new second ave terminal (lets call it 72st) so that through service is possible.
2. Once the connector goes into full service, emergency rerouted M trains have no where to turn. Now, they use Queensbridge. With trains running through, they would have to continue until the next turning point. The choices: 145st/CPW unless rush hour, then Bedford pk Blvd, 168st Washington Heights, 71/Continental. Sure, the M could conceivably run up Broadway to 57/7, but only works if the M is coming from South Brooklyn, and not the Eastern Division. The rerouted train would become useless for the rest of the time period, since they'd have to return to South Brooklyn and the time that has passed would usually mean the end of M service there. As it is now, the M after turning at Queensbridge will run through Chrystie st to return to the Eastern div easily. With the 72st terminal, a joint B'wy/6th ave terminal within close range of midtown Manhattan would once again be present, preserving this much needed flexibility.
Today I rode the famous R-40/R-42 pair on the L (4460-4665). It was strange looking through one long storm window and seeing the small one of the R-42... The entire train had only R-42s except for the 1 R-40.
Are there any other cross-type links in the current fleet? I don't think there are, maybe I missed though...
None that I am aware of.
Yes, there is the R-38's paired off with R-32's on the A Line.
BMTman
"Yes, there is the R-38's paired off with R-32's on the A Line. "
I recently read a consist on the (A) with a mix of R-38's and GE and M&K rebuilds in the same train. Definitly a Kodak moment.
Bill "Newkirk"
There are NO others within the same married pair. There ARE, however, mixed consists of R40M with R42, and also R32 with R38 in various places. In "A" division, R26, R28 and R29 mix freely, as do R33 and R36.
wayne
With the exception of the 33 singles I've never seen the R-36s share with anyone else (though it probably looks cool from the inside watching lights flicker out in some cars and not in others - 9336 style). I notice mixed consists all the time, and will often try to go for the R-40 and R-38 in such instances (and especially the 32 GE, exterior the #plate is a dead giveaway, interior the window size and number of stanchions make it clearly distinguishable from the 38s). The 26/28/29 are too similar for me to really care, except for special cars like 8660, 7821, 7773, etc.
In the past, I always found the R-29/33/36 ML cars to be the indistinguishable ones, while the R-26/28s were paired by themselves. Of course, that's going back a long ways, to when the 29/33/36s had their original Redbird paint jobs and the 26/28 had the (unpainted) bubblegum pink seats.
Fox 29 News reported that a woman running after an R7 To Trenton train at 30th Street Station. The train was about to move as the woman was running after the train when her collegue tried to pull her in when she slipped and fell under between the cars. She is reported in critical condition and she lost her foot. Not trying to be insensitive, but evolution has a way of weeding out the stupid. You can always get another train, but you cannot get another life.
Remember everybody, when you grab somebody you need to grab the wrist, not the hand. A hand hold can slip to easily. If you remember and practice this little bit of advice you can save the life of a tardy co-worker leaping on a moving train.
"If you miss too many trains you'll spend your whole life waiting."
"If you miss too many trains you'll spend your whole life waiting."
Yes, but at least I'll have a life to spend.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's the story in the Inkie.
The R7 seems to be one of the more frequent SEPTA RR routes. Why on earth would you run risk your life for one of those? The R6, maybe. But not the R7.
And of course there's my dad, who raced a North Jersey Coast train on foot from Pt. Pleasant beach to the bridge north of the station (not exactly a short distance). Jumped into the rear vestibule the hard way (through the end, not the side). My uncle helped him up. This was well before NJT and control cab cars, trains had the engine in the front and had an engine change to get to NY, no dinky shuttle.
Why should the fact that there is only 1 express track stop the TA from running express service on the #7 line on weekends? Or is there another reason.
They could run it like this -
Toward Manhattan from the morning until late afternoon/early evening
Toward Queens from late afternoon/early evening until 9 or 10 PM.
Those people who built the Flushing, Astoria, West End, etc., should have built them with 4 tracks instead of a half-assed 3.
They used to run Saturday express service.
when was saturday express service discontinued on the #7? It would not make much sense for this anyways, because all the diamond IRT service was really meant for the rush hours to begin with. Are you sure this wasn't when the #11 train was running? -Nick
when was saturday express service discontinued on the #7?
in the early 1950's
It would not make much sense for this anyways, because all the diamond IRT service was really meant for the rush hours to begin with.
Saturday's were half a work day for many people back then. There was a rush hour.
Are you sure this wasn't when the #11 train was running?
The #11 train was definitely running back then but I don't see the relevance.
"The #11 train was definitely running back then but I don't see the relevance."
It was just that the diamond 7 can be considered the #11's replacement. I was trying to figure out why it would run on a Saturday, which you figured out for me. -Nick
It was just that the diamond 7 can be considered the #11's replacement.
I thought that the B54 bus was the #11's replacement.
Wait, Wait . . . I think there's a little misuderstanding here (or is it another Abbot and Costello routine?)
There is a purple 11 sign on the IRT cars which is not used and has never been used. The purple indicates that it can be aligned with the #7.
The old #11 was a BMT line designation (not sure which line). BMT trains used to carry number designations, like the IRT.
The old 11 has nothing to do with the current (and unused) 11 or the Flushing Line.
Wait, Wait . . . I think there's a little misuderstanding here (or is it another Abbot and Costello routine?)
There is a purple 11 sign on the IRT cars which is not used and has never been used. The purple indicates that it can be aligned with the #7.
The old #11 was a BMT line designation (not sure which line). BMT trains used to carry number designations, like the IRT.
The old 11 has nothing to do with the current (and unused) 11 or the Flushing Line.
Katalavenette?
Not much time savings given the weekend headways. Might as well run it local on weekends so that'll pick up everybody.
Well, go give the West End a ride and tell me if you think there's enough space to fit one more track between those buildings.
86th St. is wide enough to accommodate a 4-track line. That's a rare exception, the other being Queens Blvd. Most New York streets are too narrow for anything greater than a 3-track line.
I sure wish they'd have weekend express service on the 7, at least on Saturday because the local is slow as hell.
Most people still travel to Manhattan in AM and Flushing in PM, so they could run express service, though it should be less than on a weekday.
The map says there are two express stops, not one (and not counting the stops at QBP and Willets Pt.).
He said one express >track< , not one express >stop<.
You're absolutely right. My mistake. Sorry.
Hey, they put their whole ass into this!
Seriously, name any 4 (or more) track el station in NY. Barring yard lead sections, of course. Smith-9 and 4th ave I believe are the only stops (not really an el anyway).
Not too many el sections only 2 tracks wide either (excluding yard leads themselves and terminals). 45 Road (7), Fulton st (J/Z), Sutter Ave (L), Neptune ave (F), some M stops north of Wyckoff. That's it. Since the Jamaica ave el was designed for 3 tracks I count it as 3 tracks wide.
Was 3 the magic #?
Before responding with additions, note that if it has ballast or suspension cables it ain't an el. Approaches to such sections also do not count as an el.
Forgot Atlantic ave has an assload of tracks (5)& trackways (1)! I feel stupid now, since I was standing on the middle platform yesterday during the G.O.
Eastern Pkwy also counts as a 2 track el station/section.
The entire section of the Brighton line between the Neptune Av overpass and Ocean Parkway is standard steel el with 4 tracks most of the time, and 6 between Brighton Beach and Ocean Parkway (that station itself is 4 track standard concrete viaduct like is used on regular 3 track els such as the first 3 stations of the Flushing line, Pelham Pkwy on the White Plains Rd line, etc). Two tracks run in the space where the platforms end outside the two stations, and these are used for layups. This section, over Brighton Beach Av (like a bona fide el) is like two traditional 3 track els side by side!
How could I forget that!! It slipped my mind that this section was not open cut / embankment like the rest of the Brighton. Funny thing is I rode through there several times this week. Since the Q ends at Brighton with a 50/50 shot at hitting the correct platform, I change to the D at Sheepshead so no railfan window. I look out the right side since the sun is on the left, so I never noticed.
Since I train for S/A at 207th Street Yard, I have access to the Overhaul Shop for intent of purcasing food at the TA's cafeteria. While on my journeys, I have the opportunity to observe shop personnel working on the various cars currently there.
Let me tell you what I've found. The cars here had their trucks pulled out from under them, and the bodies are mounted on steel horses.
What I've found: From the Fordham Collision, R-62s 1361-65 (4) getting repairs before going back on the road.
R40 Slants 4400 and 4401 from the L.
R-33s, 9166-67, from the 2.
R-29s, 8614 and 8615 from the 6.
R-62As, 2156-60 from the 1 with a single R-62A from the 3 towards the front of the shop.
There were R-38s in there as well.
The one that blew me away was the sighting of R-142s 6331-35 in the shop with the 5 cars separated, and losing it's wheel sets. 6335's trucks appear to be sitting mounted on top of one another across the way from the car. I can't help but wonder what the shop people are fixing. I just hope there isn't another R-46 fiasco in the works. Has anyone gotten any reports of problems with the 142s trucks (or anything else for that matter)?
Outside in the yard, I found a divorced R-38 sitting by itself. Perhaps there is an R-32/38 odd couple running out there?.
-Stef
Wot?? No r-110/b??
Not where I was looking. It could be stashed away at the back of the yard, or in the maintenance barn next door, but I'm not really sure.
-Stef
Haven't seen it yet, Stef. Keep an eye out for that lone R38's unit number. Have you seen R32GE #3934-3935 or R131 #3007-3008-3009 out there? How about R62A #1909? Any refugees from Union Square wreck?
let me know if you see anything.
207th Street Shoppe - I must tell my Dad what is going on there; he toiled happily there from 1969 to 1983.
wayne
I believe all the cannabalized cars/wrecks should be sitting at the back of the yard. 1909 is probably sitting with the Union Square wrecks at the back there. Also add the casualties of the Fordham Collision to this equation. Throw out R-44 5319, casualty of fire at Far Rock in 1997, which was moved down to Brooklyn for scrapping, last month.
Will try and get an R-38 number for sure, but it is close to the building and becomes impossible for me to identify. It is actually seated on a track nearest to a pair of R-30 school cars.
-Stef
And you didn't go into the old drop tables? If you go there tomorrow, check out the 110B trucks there. I think 23 North is the track you were looking at near the R30s. Thats the paint shed. They are doing some of the roofs of the R38 cars as well as work car repainting. Just be careful inside the truck shop for overhead machinery and it is a hard hat area. In other words, pretend you are lost :-)
Thanks. But I think I'll just cross the path that takes me to the cafeteria. I saw a sufficient amount of equipment and I think I am quite satisfied. Work car repainting? Are they repainting the signal dolly once again? Hehe.....
-Stef
The dolly motors will be retired come the first of the Corona transfers so repainting them won't be a problem knowing the TA. The drop tables are interesting. Go take a look as you may not be in this yard for years to come on the clock. The overhaul shop (17-19) was last used for the R33 projects. There are buses in there now for their main shop. Enjoy the training, soon for you it will be reality.
Wayne,
I saw r/32s 3934-3935 in a consist of R/38s last week. Saw them twice.
On the fist occasion the consist was a Far Rock "A". A day or two later when i spotted them , they were a Lefferts "A".
I haven't seen them scince then. I will peel my eyes.
They were the center set, if memory servers me correctly.
avid
6335's trucks appear to be sitting mounted on top of one
another across the way from the car.
That's not a good sign! Do you see a bunch of white-coated
engineers scurrying around? Was this set ever in service?
I didn't see anyone working on the car, actually, but I'm suspicious of why they're in the overhaul shop. This set has been in service at one time or another.
-Stef
The R-142s were put back together as of this morning and appear to be getting ready to head home. I must say that there are extra 142 trucks to be found in the shop. It's unclear to me as to what they were doing, although I would think they were putting trucks through some inspections.
The divorced R-38 sitting outside in the Yard appears to be 4089, so where's 4088? In the shop perhaps? I spotted another slant unit with J Train Signs. It seems to me that most, if not all Eastern Division equipment get routed to 207th Street for work rather than Coney Island.
Cars 1666-70 were also in the shop today, with something peculiar. Since when do Pelham Cars have red stickers under their plates? When the heck did these go to 240th Street Barn?
-Stef
R-29s 8614 and 15 are not in the shop right now, it's actually 8674 and 8675.
-Stef
This may be related to a problem with the trip cock assemblies
on the Bombardier cars' trucks.
6331-35 are gone, and 6336-40 are now inside with their trucks removed.
-Stef
It looks kind of weird at 207 St Yard to see buses straddled on the unused rails. Also the junkyard is in the area between 50 and 60 tracks by the blocks. Make sure that you've got a safety vest before you visit, and no one'll bug you on the tracks as long as you have your uniform on.
Were there any R-10 ghosts anywhere?:-)
Eh? Not really. A nice thought though.
-Stef
I spoke tonight at the MTA's public hearing. My cause was restoration of the Hillsdie Express service. In fact, I was far from the only speaker asking for it. It was one of the most common topics. Not that that necessarily means that there is aggreement over it. But I did get applause at the mention--that and the suggestion to have a MetroCard transfer between Queens Plaza and QueensBORO Plaza.
Of course, far and away the hottest topic for complaints was the cutting back of the G line to Court Square. There were a lot of unhappy people there regarding that.
Andrew "MisterK" Kirschner
OOOH! OOOH! And I got be on TV! They interviewed me for Channel 7 Eyewitness News and they used the clip, the suggestion for Hillside Express service.
:-) Andrew
Yeah, I saw you. At least you got on a good broadcast! If ch 4 or 2 came up to me I would tell them to go away. There aren't enough cars and demand for Hillside express service.
The (visible) pendulum on express vs. local service to 179 seems to be swinging back again. Part of the reason the express service was cancelled was rider complaints to the MTA. With riders changing their mindsadequate rolling stock for decent headways, MTA could restore what they cancelled. Of course, we don't know that the people at the hearing represent the majority view about service to 179 (personally, I agree with your position - I want full local and express service to 179, and I want, eventually, an extension of the subway at least to Hillside and the low 200's.
Hell yes! The further east we can get the subways int Queens, the better!
In fact, if we ever get a quintillion's worth of funding, whatcha say we just subway the hell out of the borough!
:) Andrew
Some parts of the borough don't have sufficient density, but there's still plenty of Queens that could make good use of it if it existed. After the obvious work is done, we can argue about the marginal areas.
I was there from about 6:00 to 8:30, which was when things began to get repetitive. I must have heard you guys speak. I saw RIPTA42HopeTunnel there, whom I recognized from the 63rd St. Connector field trip. We chatted a bit on the way out and while riding the Q-104 bus, which is not an MTA bus, incidentally.
I was not unsurprised to see the various Community Board advocates there, but it did surprise me to see more than a couple City Council Members and State Assemblymen there in person. I realize that much political hay can be made by pointing out in a campaign that you spoke publicly to the MTA, but it occurred to me that our legislators shouldn't have to go to a public hearing to speak to the MTA!
If the people at the hearing were at all representative of the affected riders, the MTA would be very foolish to cut back the 'G' to Court Square. Many of the residents of Greenpoint will have added commute-times due to the transfer to 23rd/Ely. It hadn't occurred to me that those riders might take the 'G' to Queens Plaza, crossover to the Manhattan-bound platform, and take the 'E' or 'F' to midtown. I'd certainly be pissed if I lived in northwest Brooklyn.
My main wish was addressed by many folks -- the use of the 7th Avenue connection to the 63rd St. tube by some service, I don't care what, as long as the vastly under-used BMT express tracks get used in Manhattan. Seems like the new tunnel would be a great opportunity to put Broadway's BMT to full use, using both the 60th & 63rd St. tubes. Even with the 'W', you're still crowding 60th St. when 63rd is available.
The other point that drew much approval from the crowd was that, in order to change service as little as possible, why not have the new 'V' train utilize 63rd St. People brought up the fact that the signs, both in the trains and in the stations already have the right letter-bullets, and that people are used to the service as it is now. Making the 'V' use the new connector almost makes too much sense! That way, you would only have to add crews, trains and signage and not move a whole bunch of s**t around. This makes a great deal of sense to me, but, as I have stated before, I, nor any one of the speakers advocating their particular concern, knows the whole story. This does not preclude us the need to ask questions at hearings like this, I suppose. It would have been great to hear some answers as well as all the bitching and moaning, but no one said it would be a dialogue.
Maybe I should have registered to speak, but I really just wanted to observe. It seemed as though none of the folks on the dais/stage were all that interested in being there, and seemed to just be going through the motions. E. Virgil Conway was seldom at his seat; I think he may have left early. He happened to be there when a speaker addressed him directly. He took off his glasses and listened rather intently, but the next time I looked up, he was gone.
Many of our legislators begged them for hearings on the Manny-B flip-flop. One guy (not a public official) asked that C/R's please wait at local/express transfer stops for the other train to pull-in and discharge its transferring riders. He said, "The excuse is, 'If we wait, the whole line will mess up.' Well, the whole line's already messed up!!" This point was met with raucus applause.
RPTA and I both thought there would be more people there. I mentioned that the location was probably strategically chosen: Long Island City Hight School has no MTA service closer than 5 or 6 long blocks away, that being the Broadway 'N' stop.
I'm sure there's more I could have mentioned. Hope I didn't miss anything after I left. I got the impression, however, that the hearing was a formality, and a waste of time. As one speaker, a guy who identified himslef not as an official of any kind, but simply as a regular rider, mentioned to the honorable board members conducting the hearing, "If only you had to ride these trains, you would understand why we are all here!"
This, I thought, was a good point.
Just to throw in my own observations of the hearing: the majority of comments seemed evenly split between displeasure over the G being cut back and complaints about the Manhattan Bridge changes; Mark Green, in fact, only discussed the latter. A couple of speakers advocated using the old KK connection and running V trains to Metropolitan Ave (a nice idea if we had an unlimited supply of cars), and it was also asserted a few times that the MTA's signage is atrocious for service changes, apprently because people neither like to read nor listen.
Personally, I don't see the G cutback as such a detriment. The Court Sq-Ely Ave transfer isn't nearly as harsh as the Lexington Ave-51 St transfer, and another route to Manhattan easily benefits an order of magnitude more people than a one seat ride from Greenpoint to Forest Hills. This may be contrived, but it could even have a positive impact on the community, indirectly, because Brooklyn residents will be more likely to patronize local businesses instead of going to Queens Center or Austin Street.
My major contention with the current plan is not having the V run on weekends, which is worth a letter. The R alone is insufficient for local service. Perhaps the MTA plans on running the E/F local on weekends after all? I'd also love to see the Q extend to Queens, but I don't see it as a catastrophe that it isn't.
I was extremely surprised at the low turnout, but as Pete said, LIC high school is off the beaten path, transitwise, and anyone who would get off at Roosevelt Island thinking it was Roosevelt Avenue probably ended up in Montauk trying to get to the hearing. I also strongly agree that there should be more of a dialogue, at least to correct wrong statements made by presenters (e.g., a couple of references to the closure of the Grand St station), but I can see that causing problems with the time constraints.
It is most certainly a formality, as the plan is finalized and any major changes would require a lengthy review process, but it's good to have the public opinion on record and could shape future service changes. Now, does anyone think the hearing had anything to do with Mr. Conway's retirement? :)
This may be contrived, but it could even have a
positive impact on the community, indirectly, because Brooklyn residents will be more likely to patronize local
businesses instead of going to Queens Center or Austin Street.
That's like saying that closing Rt. 146 would benefit the merchants in Woonsocket.
That's like saying that closing Rt. 146 would benefit the merchants in Woonsocket.
No it isn't; people in Woonsocket don't leave Woonsocket as it is :).
They're probably waiting for the P&W to resume passenger service to Providence.
I suppose when you consider the hellish E/F to 6 transfer at Lex/51st, the G to E/F at 23rd Ely doesn't look so bad, does it?
Someone also mentioned the possibility of a "metrocard transfer" (like the one which will be implemented for the G to 7 at 45th Road-Courthouse Sq.) between QBP and QP. I think this would be very helpful for residents of western Queens, like myself, who can utilize either the Astoria el and the Queens IND lines. A lot of us live in that "triangle" formed by QP/QBP, 31st St., and Steinway St., and the construction projects disrupting service in one or both directions as this connector is finalized might be a good reason for a transfer from the E/F/R/(V)/G to the N/(W).
Of course, one speaker advocated a safe, enclosed walking transfer between the 'G' and '7' at Courthouse Square, and even claimed that Citicorp(group, now) had agreed to build it originally. I wonder if this is true.
Either metrocard-transfer in the area would not benefit elderly or handicapped riders much, and I know I wouldn't want my wife transferring between QP and QBP at night, or any time for that matter. I'd use it though.
A Metrocard transfer from Queens Plaza to Queensboro Plaza would make a lot of sense; in fact, when I took a tour of the 63 St project in 1997, we were told that a physical connection, à la 74-Broadway-Roosevelt Ave, was part of the project. A Metrocard transfer from 21-Queensbridge to Queens Plaza would have been good, since the F was rerouted via 63 St a few times before the connector was open, and people didn't believe that it wasn't going to Forest Hills! I suppose that's moot now.
I'm sure I read in the Capital Program that a Court Sq-Courthouse Sq connector was supposed to built, but I can't find it now. AFAIK, the Mertocard transfer is supposed to be temporary and a passage will be built in three years or so, though. Another thing that not enough people brought up, IMO, is a transfer from Lexingon Ave-63 St to the 4/5/6 at 59 St.
Lexington/63rd is one deep station. It takes 10 minutes just to get to the street, and then you have to walk 3 blocks to 60th. To transfer there would be too time consuming.
Yeah, but the physical transfer between the E/F(V) at 53/Lex and the 6 at 51/Lex ain't much better! One escalator, then lots of walking, down then up again. Very, very overcrowded. Very, very slow. One of the worst transfers in the system. Make the Ely/Court Sq transfer seem easy by comparrison.
:-) Andrew
It has been posted here that a physical passageway already exists, via some storage rooms and/or employee facilites, between the two stations. Any transfer is better than no transfer.
Nobody seemed to be aware of that (as well as the D5 layup tack that would permit the to turn at QP. Only one speaker referred to that).
I mentioned the electrical room connection to some of the officials after the hearing, and they don't know about it, and seem to think it's just a rumor.
Does the Passage way between 34th St and 42nd St set off any bells or whistles? It was CLOSED because of repeated CRIME.
I would tend to want to avoid Loooooong passssssage waaaaaays late at night. I think the TA would be shy of them as well.
What do you think?
avid
(I would tend to want to avoid Loooooong passssssage waaaaaays late at night. I think the TA would be shy of them as well. What do you think? )
I think an underground pedestrian street should be created under 49th Street, from 3rd Avenue to 8th Avenue with subway connections. It would be like Montreal -- perhaps the buildings could put storefronts in their cellars. The walk from 6th Avenue over to 3rd Avenue isn't so bad, IF you don't have to wait two minutes for stoplights at every avenue.
There was a passageway from 34 St to 42 St? The 4/5/6 platforms at 59 St go almost to 61 St, so it would be a shorter walk than the passageway from Times Sq to Port Authority Bus Terminal. I try to avoid long passageways late at night, too, but I feel perfectly safe during rush hour, which is when I would be transferring from the F to the 6 at 59 St.
Yes, there is a connecting passageway between 34th and 42nd Sts. on the 6th Ave. line. It was a compromise of sorts. There was a station at, IIRC, 38th St. on the 6th Ave. el, and when the IND refused to build a station there, a passageway was agreed upon, with entrances at 38th St. I think it's more of an extension of the mezzanine, instead of just a narrow corridor. It has been closed off because of safety concerns.
Oops; I just realized the passage is described right on this site. I have to check out those access doors. The 38 St station on the el closed in 1893; there was that much pressure to have an IND station there??
The station closed when the Sixth Ave. el closed in 1938, not 1893. Right numbers, wrong order.
The station list at The JoeKorner has it closing in 1893 with no date, 58 St closing 6/16/24, and the rest of it on 12/4/38, and the 1920 track map on this site shows nothing between 33 & 42 Sts. The 1893 could be a typo; can anyone else confirm or deny?
There are some you just can't avoid, like the exit tunnel from 191st Street on the '1' and '9'. It burrows under Manhattan schist for a good three blocks from Saint Nicholas Avenue to emerge onto Broadway, and looks extremely scary (dim lighting, lots of windblown garbage) in the busiest of times.
There's a much shorter exit tunnel from 190th Street on the 'A' that goes from the mezzanine DOWNhill to exit onto Bennett Avenue on surface level.
The tunnel connecting Times Square to Port Authority is long, but is usually busy at any time, even in the middle of the night. The connector under 14th between 6th and 7th Avenues seems very scary, however.
There are some lengthy, secluded-looking exit tunnels at 15th/Prospect and the next stop on the 'F', Fort Hamilton Parkway.
I avoid changing from the 'N' and 'R' to the 'F' at 4th/9th because the stairways are very steep, winding and contain lots of blind spots that attract muggers. (Middle age and the attendent increasing stomach size doesn't help either!)
Unfortunately, there's no little or no alternatives to most of these. An unlimited Metrocard can be used to avoid questionable underground transfer passageways, but who's to say if the street above is any safer in the middle of the night?
The scariest transfer in the system has to be Court St M/N/R to Borough Hall 2/3/4/5; that stairwell seems like it should have a mugger permanently stationed in it. I've never had a problem, though.
Used that one once, I didn't feel unsafe since it was busy, but it is way too long. And this was in summer, I was soaked with sweat when I finished walking through it.
I wouldn't expect the passageway proposed to connect Lawrence St on the M/N/R to Jay St A/C/F to be too comforting either.
That should be pretty short. One station is said to be simply on the other side of a wall from the other.
Nah, I've been through that transfer plenty of times. It isn't too bad, mainly because there is a lot of people. Since everybody is putting in their two cents, I'd say the passageway I always try to avoid is the all transfer passageway at Atlantic Avenue. True, it is always busy, especially around the LIRR area, but if you go from the D/Q, all the way to Pacific St on the B/M/N/R, {I'm not saying many do this} then as soon as you clear the last IRT staircase and head down those three steps, for a short moment, it gets scary.
The transfer from Walnut-Locust (BSS) to Locust/12th-13th (Patco)should best be avoided at night if you're a male travelling alone. I'm not sure how a female would be treated.
One transer that scares me somehwhat is the web of passageways that connect Fulton/Broadway Nassau's many lines. At night, it's deserted as hell, and it can be a long, confusing walk through both passageways and platforms before you find your platform.
Andrew
Reopen that passage, and build the new one, but only have it open from 6AM-9PM. All other times, no transfer.
I posted on this subject at one point; Mr. R-46 (Ekik) posted that he had seen this transfer while working as a flagman near the 63rd-Lex station, when he had the opportunity to thoroughly explore the station complex. According to someone who spoke with him later, he clarified that the connection is between the fare-level mezanine at Lex-63rd and the southbound Lex line local _tunnel_ just north of the 59th St. station, not the stations themselves. I'm not sure the TA would be willing to invest the funds to make this a functional passageway.
subfan
OK; thanks for the clarification.
The G cutback will be psainful to some, no doubt.
Would it have been worthwhile to add $100-150 million to the project to give the G train a new 500 foot two-track ramp with which to enter a new lower level at Queens Plaza (with an elevator and escalator available to the main level, where the V, E, and R stop)? And which other projects would have been displaced by this? Unfortunately, with fixed-block signalling's limitations, I really don't think Manhattan-bound service could increase without a G cutback (unless MTA considered the above alternative).
Your narrative is very well done, by the way.
As I understand it, the major obstacle to bringing the G to Queens Plaza is the lack of an efficient way to turn the G at QP without blocking the whole line. (This is an obvious problem at peak hours, not so clear off-peak.) I wonder if the capacity exists to run Gs to Roosevelt Avenue and, if so, how much it would cost to extend the second system tunnel far enough to use it for tail tracks for the G.
They crossed it over the & for years at night and weekends, and now, there won't even be the running through there anymore.
The real reason I got from an official as we left, for them not restoring QP service on off-hours, is that people will complain "why can't if go there all the time" (since it would have to go to Court Square during the busy weekday periods). The same reason they don't take my idea to run Willy B service through Chrystie on weekends. So since we are crowded off the main lines during busy periods, then don't give us any direct service any time. (Cut off our noses to spite their faces) So this whole corridor, which abuts midtown, and is in fact the very center of the city, gets more and more cut off from everything. Just let us climb stairs and walk hundreds of feet through passages, often several times a trip, to get anywhere.
Unfortunately, with fixed-block signalling's limitations, I really don't think Manhattan-bound service could increase without a G cutback (unless MTA considered the above alternative).
Actually, some Manhattan-bound service will decrease by 16% by the "improvement." Currently the lineup is as follows:
E - 15 tph; F - 15 tph; G - 6 tph; R - 12 tph.
This will change to:
E - 15 tph; F - 15 tph; R - 10 tph; V - 10 tph.
So, people thinking that they should transfer to the "R" to effect a transfer to the Lex will be in for a tight squeeze.
Actuallly, the block signals can accomodate the G service quite nicely. The problem is LACK OF CARS!!! The "G" could be turned around at 71st along with another local service. The remaining service could continue to 179th and restore Hillside Ave Express Service.
The basic problem with the proposed plan is the uneven service frequencies. This is guarantees that in the morning half the "V" trains will conflict with the "E" at the Queens Plaza merge, while the other half conflict with the "F" at the 50th St merge. A similar conflict arises in the evening at 5th Ave ("E" & "V") and Bway-Lafayette ("F" & "V"). The only way this routing can work without causing delays due to merging conflicts is to equalize the service frequencies.
In the old days they equalized the frequencies to eliminate delays and varied train length to equalize load factors. The use of linkbars has removed this tool from the scheduler's kit. (It also helped create the car shortage).
Actually, some Manhattan-bound service will decrease by 16% by the "improvement." Currently the lineup is as follows:
E - 15 tph; F - 15 tph; G - 6 tph; R - 12 tph.
This will change to:
E - 15 tph; F - 15 tph; R - 10 tph; V - 10 tph.
So, people thinking that they should transfer to the "R" to effect a transfer to the Lex will be in for a tight squeeze.
But people can transfer to the R or the V locals to transfer to the 6 - a 67% increase in local service to the Lexington Ave line. If you're talking about the 4/5 only... well, take the 6; it's faster at rush hour!
The leave load for Lex Expresses at 59th St is 1.09. The leave load for Lex Expresses at Brooklyn Bridge is 0.82. There is still a very significant downtown business district that the #6 does not serve.
Those heading to lower Manhattan or Brooklyn can take the R or transfer from a 6 at 42 St, 14 St, or Brooklyn Bridge. Better yet, they could stay on the F or V, transfer to a 6 at Bleecker, and a 4/5 at Brooklyn Bridge to avoid the transfer at 51 St, or stay on the E and transfer to an A/C. I doubt the -2 tph on the R will have a drastic effect on Queens-Financial District commutes.
I doubt the -2 tph on the R will have a drastic effect on Queens-Financial District commutes.
It will raise the load factor from 0.72 to 0.86.
yes, but the G {now 6 tph} will be replaced by the V {proposed 10 tph}
If they're worried about losing R service into the financial district, how about this option -- run the V down Sixth Ave., and then have it switch over to the Eighth Ave. local tracks and terminate at the World Trade Center with the E?
To avoid having three lines sharing one track between West Fourth and Canal, the C could switch over to the express tracks for the run to and from Brooklyn between 23rd and 34th Streets, instead of between Canal and WTC. This would allow Queens Blvd. passengers even more access to lower Manhattan than they have now, though there would be a loss of service for passengers using the Eighth Ave.-23rd St. station.
Certainly, if the E and F can share trackage, the E and V could do so as well for three stops. And terminating the V at WTC would serve a lot more people than terminating it at Second Ave. or Broadway-Lafayette.
This would also give Queens riders a slightly more direct route to WTC (straight down 6th Av., instead of swinging over to 8th and back)
What I'm going to push now is the to WTC, to Euclid (could go exp. in Manhattan), and the via Chrystie to Metropolitan (the connection would now be used all times except nights, instead of just on weekends, as in my plan, or just in rush hours as it was used before).
"E" to Euclid (could go exp. in Manhattan)
Leaving 8th Ave Local service to 6 tph, as opposed to 15 tph for the "E".
"C" via Chrystie to Metropolitan
Compensating for the reduced service by reducing train lengths to 480' instead of 600'.
The C is already 480'. What are you talking about?
The Brooklyn Bridge and WTC stations are approximately at the same north-south location. The demand is for the Fulton St, Wall St and Bowling Green Stations. The WTC terminal is not close enough to serve the Financial District.
A lot of the financial companies have moved over into the WTC area (I know my brockerage firm did about a decade ago, and the WTC E Terminal station's main exit is at Vescey Street, which is just one block down from Fulton and two blocks away in the WTC complex from the N/R Cortlandt Street exit.
Running the V to the WTC wouldn't get you right to Wall Street, but as I said it would serve a heck of a lot more people than terminating it at Second Ave. or Broadway-Lafayette.
(Running the V to the WTC wouldn't get you right to Wall Street, but as I said it would serve a heck of a lot more people than
terminating it at Second Ave. or Broadway-Lafayette.)
I think the issue is the number of trains that can turn around at WTC.
If the turnaround could handle it, I'd favor running all 30 QB expresses down the 8th Avenue local track. You'd eliminate the slowdown at 53rd and 6th, have frequent service on the whole crosstown route, and more frequent service from Penn Station to East Midtown. In short the F would become a QB express, 8th Avenue local, just like the E.
The C would move over the express track before 50th Street to make room for the V, eliminating the local-express merge at Canal St, and providing a slightly faster ride for some Brooklyn residents.
The V would use the 63rd Street tunnel and run local on the QB line and 6th Avenue, before becomming the new Culver train.
Broadway is the only B-division line that serves the Financial District. Therefore, if they aren't doing anything with the WTC tracks, extend them down to meet the Montague tunnel tracks at, say, Rector St, and let them run over or under, whatever is easier, to Whitehall, similar to the method used at E/J/Z at Jamaica.
The Nassau line also serves the financial district at Fulton and Broad St. stations. Likewise the A/C station at Broadway-Nassau.
I have a solution. If there are a lack of cars, why not use R-32s for 'G' service, and have only 4- or 5-car trains! (Each R-32 can power itself -- no married pairs or married sets. This would be the equipment easiest to split-up into smaller consists.) This way, where you had one train, you will have 2, doubling your frequency. It's already practically a shuttle service anyway, and I've yet to see a packed 'G' train in either direction at any time of the day or night. You will then free-up the larger R-46s for 'R', 'V', 'E' or 'F' trains.
Each R-32 can power itself -- no married pairs or married sets.
The R-32 are married pairs. You would have to go back to the R16's to find a single for a BMT/IND car.
This would be the equipment easiest to split-up into smaller consists.
They are planning to run 300' long trains on the "G" and also on the Grand St Shuttle.
Oops. I guess I'm misremembering cabs on both ends of the car.
[...restoration of Hillside Avenue express service....]
That was the pattern ater Archer Avenue opened: F express and R local, both thru to 179th. The folks at the "outer" local stations (169th St, Sutphin, Briarwood, 75th Av) complained about having to transfer in order to achieve an express ride on Queens Blvd.
How about a split F, with a peak-only F-diamond staying on the express track east of Forest Hills and a full-time F-circle using the local track. That would provide one-seat Queens Blvd express service to every station east of Forest Hills, BUT it would also cut service in half to the "outer" local stations.
Which is the lesser evil - forced transfers or reduced local service?
I saw Manhattan bound F trains running on the express track from 179th, all the way to Continental. I did see track workers on the Manhattan bound local around Briarwood-Van Wyck.
Wednesday from late morning till mid afternoon, an emergency G.O. took out the southbound F local track from Parsons/Hillside to Kew Gardens. There was some kind of water condition around the curve between Supthin/Hillside & Van Wyck/Briarwood. Manhattan bound F trains ran on the express track because of this.
Yeah, that's where it was, saw lights and track workers. Seems to be alot of water in the subways lately, I guess melting snow can do that.
I saw Manhattan bound F trains running on the express track from 179th, all the way to Continental. I did see track workers on the Manhattan bound local around Briarwood-Van Wyck.
This was around 2 in the afternoon.
I suggested the circle-diamond idea as an alternate if they can't run the V and/or R to 179th. But I think it's better to have to transfer than it is to have half-service.
Andrew
To maintain capacity and allow for full fledged express service without disturbing the 'locals:'
Take 3 TPH away from the F and give it to the E.
Run 6 Es Per H on the Hillside Express to 179. Service on the F and regular E have been reduced, but few people will notice. Service every 10 minutes on the full express is rather decent.
The full local / full express to 179 is a better idea, Concourse line riders seem fine with their situation, plus people travelling between local zones get the option of direct service. Remember during the non-rush the F express still stopped at 169 back in the day.
just another reason the Q is perfect for the job
There have been complaints about the V turning at Second Avenue rather than continuing into Brooklyn to let the F run express.
If (repeat, IF!!) there were enough cars, then certainly the G and the V could be extended to Church Ave, or even G to Church and V to Kings Highway. The F could then run express between Jay and Church (both directions) and between Church and Kings Highway (inbound AM, outbound PM).
However, I'd rather see the V use a new right-of-way along Utica Avenue to Kings Plaza. The Culver express could be achieved by extending the G to Church and splitting the F into "F-diamond" (express to/from C.I) and "F-circle" (local to/from Kings Highway).
To repeat once again, any concept of running the V to Brooklyn would be feasible ONLY given a sufficient quantity of railcars. Don't hold your breath.
The Culver express could be achieved by extending the G to Church and splitting the F into "F-diamond" (express to/from C.I) and "F-circle" (local to/from Kings Highway).
This is STUPID because Carroll, Smith/9th, 4th Av, 15th St and Fort Hamilton would lose their Manhattan access just so people from Coney Island could save a few measly minutes.
[This is STUPID because Carroll, Smith/9th, 4th Av, 15th St, and Fort Hamilton would lose their Manhattan access....]
No, they wouldn't. AS YOU ARE FULLY AWARE (because you quoted it from my previous post), I suggested a SPLIT F, with a rush-hour F-diamond running express Jay-Church (both directions) and Church-Kings Hwy (peak direcion), and the full-time F-circle making ALL LOCAL STOPS between Jay Street and Kings Highway.
By quoting this, you admitted that the local stations would NOT lose Manhattan access, while still claiming that they would. And I'M being stupid?
You mentioned extending the G to Church, you never said the split F would operate on the IND. You were only reviving the 1968-76 plan which failed for that reason.
Now who's stupid for being vague?
[...you never said the split F would operate on the IND....Now who's stupid for being vague?]
Actually, in my message which started all of this (specifically, in the portion which you quoted), I clearly described my idea as a way to achieve a CULVER express service without the V. "Culver" is the name of the right-of-way used by the F route in Brooklyn, and thus counts as the IND - even though Culver was once part of the BMT, and even though the IND and BMT ceased to exist 50+ years ago.
In other words, you've used a clear quote from me to accuse me of vagueness.
Sure, send the "V" to Brooklyn, but send it through the Chrystie street connector and so out to Broadway, to Eastern Parkway and then to Canarsie, RUSH HOURS only for this service. Mid-day and other times should turn at 2nd Avenue.
wayn
Because of the high ridership, you really need 600' trains on the Queens IND.
It'd be nice if they would extend some of those Eastern Division BRT el platforms to handle 600' trains.
Otherwise, to send the "V" to Brooklyn Via Chrystie/Williamsburg/Broadway BRT, you'd need non-R46s, and 480' trains (8 60'ers). The R46s (and any 75' MU car) are banned (for whatever reason{s}) from the Eastern Division.
Then you'd have to take some of the R32s from Jamaica normally assigned to the "E", unless some car shake-up or transfer is made....
I don't think platform sizes are the main problem there. I think it's the sharp curves.
:-) Andrew
I am trying to picture the Eastern Divison, and I can't really see any severe curves that are not unlike others in the BRT whose mainstay MUs are R46s, and R68s.
But many worse curves exist on the BRT lines...
* Cortlandt to City Hall, 90 degree curves
* 9th Avenue to 36th Street
Those lines (N, R) and (B) use 75' foot cars. Those curvs I mention are extremely sharp and narrow.
The lines intended for the 75 foot cars had their curves widened for the purpose at the time. I don't know if this was done in the Eastern Div.
The curves they are talking about are the L train curves around the Montrose/Morgan area where there is a sharp right followed by a sharp left. The others are on the J/Z by Crescent St and Cypress Hills. There's a sharp left and sharp right, and they seem like 90 degrees.
Those curves on the Eastern Division (J/M/L) make the N R seem like a straight line. THEY ARE EXTREMELY SHARP!
I should know.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
I am trying to picture the Eastern Divison, and I can't really see any severe curves that are not unlike others in the BRT whose mainstay MUs are R46s, and R68s.
But many worse curves exist on the BRT lines...
* Cortlandt to City Hall, 90 degree curves
* 9th Avenue to 36th Street
Those lines (N, R) and (B) use 75' foot cars. Those curves I mention are extremely sharp and narrow.
I haven't followed the thread as much as I should...but I can't help wondering why there wouldn't be one service...the W...West End, bridge, Broadway, 63rd, out to Queens Blvd. Why have two short services? Run the D to 2nd Ave. or Hudson Term..whatever..oops..I mean WTC. My belief is you get better car and crew utilization by longer runs.
It's because you haven't been following the thread. The W is the southern section of the B, which is coming into existence because of the Manny B work. This is a temporary service.
The V is a new service for the Queens Blvd-63st route, which will be as permenant as things get for the TA.
-Hank
BUT you could combine them, if you don't put the V on sixth but on Broadway.
:-) Andrew
...Or just call the whole thing the W.
:-) Andrew
This is exactly what I had in mind., and the whole route the W.
Broadway would have the N and R, Q and W; Queens would have the E and F, W and R, forget about the V. You'd still have the [upper end] B and D on 6th ave. and the F. It would be closer to what services were before Chrystie.. and people got where they were going. Whatever..will be will be.
Problem with forgetting the V: The only 6th Ave-QB train will be the F, and it can only take one route. If you put it through 53rd, the station 57/6 will have no service at all, and if you put it through 63rd, the E will have to suffer through 53rd by itself. Unless you add 8th Ave service or build a 8th Ave-63rd st connection, the V is regrettably essential.
Guess I hadn't thought about 57/6th.. I never considered that stop important, seems 57/7th was a lot busier. But then I left in 77 so maybe some people have found out its there.
Another reason they can't do this is because the will not be able to turn at 57th then, and remember, it will not be just one line, but rather two-- and , and will probably be running at 22 trains per hour. You can't merge this into the 60th St. Tunnel with the and
They should build a crossover closer to Lex/63rd that way the Q could turn around there instead of having the crossover of the two expresses near 57/7. That way, the express tracks at 57/7 would be cleared up letting a train go directly from 60th to Broadway Express i.e. SKIPPING 49th St. Lex/63rd actually wouldn't be a bad terminal, because if a Q gets into 57/7 and a QB passenger sees their R just leave, they could go to Lex/63rd and take the F or V {whatever will be there,} and probably get express service. Of course, that would only apply if you leave east of Roosevelt Avenue, because the current plan doesn't show any intention of making a QB local go to 63rd. Oh, well, we could dream.
That wouldn't work, because the two tracks at 63rd St. are on different levels. What they could do instead is build a 600 ft section of 2nd Av, where the two Broadway tracks would come to the same level again, and a diamond crossover could be built there. Otherwise, we will have to wait for the finishing of the Manhattan Bridge work (When the becomes a single 12tph line again, and the is eliminated) for there to be any chance of Broadway/63rd St/Queens service
(Under this scenario, I would put the back on 53rd, and exp. to 71st, then local to 179th; the though the 6th Av/63rd connection, local to 71st St., and the express all the way to 179th.)
I think your plan for an additional 600ft of Second ave. would prove expensive in cost, and inconvenience for a temporary fix for a temporary detour.
Try this instead,
The local tracks north of 57th street, have not been laid. The trackways are bare, with the exception of a shed on the northbound side. This trackway extends from 57th ST. to 59th St. and Possibly beneath Central Park. If the iron work allows, put your diamond there. This will be the flyover you need. Service to the other lines will not be hampered.
avid
Or we can build the 2nd Ave line from 63rd St to at least the Bronx and that could be your "diamond service"... but that's a topic for another day.
Everyone has put in different ideas on what to do, so I'm going to tie them all up.
V to brooklyn is very unlikely for the reason that there simply aren't enough cars. The "G" could sacrifice more cars, and since the F and V lines would basically be replicas of themselves, the F could give a few cars as well. But that's unlikely. Maybe when the r-143 cars get here, a few r-42s could be spared, but like was mentioned before, don't hold your breath.
As for the 63rd connector, the best idea is to let the V run across it as a local and keep the F on 53rd. that way people between 36th and roosevelt get service. The Q shouldn't run on it. It would be a waste, the purpose of the Q is to serve brighton. The Q should stay at 57th. Also, forget running the W to queens as well, because then you would have to run the Q there. There is no realistic way to turn the Q at 57th and run the W to queens. Every way would cause unnessary costs.
Your point on the F service length is correct. The number of stations served by the new F (on 63rd St) will be the same as the old F (on 53rd St), though the travel time may increase a bit due to the tunnel configuration around Roosevelt Island, as described by others posting to this site.
I think this first order of R143s is simply to get rid of the most bothersome cars. Only 200 seem to be planned, which is only enough to get rid of 1/6 of all the R-32/38/40/42s combined. And, these 200 aren't supposed to be in until late 2001-early 2002. My prediction is that the R32s will last at least another 4 years to make 40 years total, the R38s will do about the same, the R40s/R42s may go 1-2 years further.
R-32s will more than likely make 50 years. They will outlast
R-38/40/42s.
Peace,
ANDEE
The R-143s aren't supposed to replace any cars -- that's supposed to come when the next series of cars (numbered somewhere around the R-160) arrive in mid- to late-decade.
Is all of this circle-diamond stuff on local/express routes really necessary? I rather detest it, and find it annoying on the IRT #6 and #7 routes. For tourists, somebody who knows the subway really well can say take the #6, it leaves you off at Elder Ave. And, of course, it happens to be the middle of the rush. The person will hop on a 6 {I know it says Local or express under the sign on the R62s, but what about the redbirds, and also how will the tourist know this makes a difference?} And then they will see Elder Ave walk right by, same with the #7 at Flushing. There should just be another number given out: the 6 could always go to Pelham Bay Park, just it runs exp in the peak direction, the rush hour local to E 177 St could be called the 8, they have signage for that. The 7 express could be the 11, the planned number that is both purple on the signs and is a diamond.
Now, in terms of the circle-Q, diamond Q, thing: the West End train should be called the T, not the W. The express Q will stay a circle, and the local Q could be called "W." What do you think? Remember, when planning route symbols on computers, very rarely is there a diamond put around a letter on them.
What does it matter WHAT they call the train? It's W because it doesn't require new signs be ordered, is the right color, and by coincidence works with 'W'est End. No one who rides the subway simply as a means to get to and from where they have to go gives a good goddamn what they call the train, as long as it gets them where they need to be.
The system exists as a mode of transportation, NOT a device for railfan fantasies and those who long for 'the good old days'
-Hank
What does it matter WHAT they call the train? It's W because it doesn't require new signs be ordered, is the right color, and by coincidence works with 'W'est End. No one who rides the subway simply as a means to get to and from where they have to go gives a good goddamn what they call the train, as long as it gets them where they need to be.
The system exists as a mode of transportation, NOT a device for railfan fantasies and those who long for 'the good old days'
-Hank
Its a hobby, Hank. Don't you have any hobbies?
Bashing people who think that their hobby, which is based solidly in reality, must conform to their irrational wishes of perfection from the point of veiw of their hobby.
-Hank
I just heard on the news that some time very soon the Williamsburg Bridge will be under major construction for a long time, and this may affect J and Z service. Didn't they just work on that damn bridge already? What are they doing now?
- Lyle Goldman
Wow, I hope it's not too bad. They reaired the approaches and replaced the signalling system not too long ago...that took four months.
It was on the TV news today, and it was said it's the vehicular roadway under reconstruction. They said subway service won't be affected.
Bill "Newkirk"
> It was on the TV news today, . . .
> They said subway service won't be affected.
Well, on the news tonight, on Channel 7, they said it may be, but only temporarily and on weekends. Time will tell, though.
- Lyle Goldman
The project will be the North Vehicular Roadways. If you take a J train towards Marcy from Manhattan(and lokok out the front railfan window) the project will be both fo the roadways on the left.
I have no specific info, but I would imagine there will probably be delays due to flagging requirements. I am sure Mr. R46(Erik) can elaborate there.
They will be going back to single tracking on the bridge during the midday hours on the J. M service will be curtailed to Myrtle Ave during this time. On weekends,J service will single track on the bridge. It won't be 24hrs continuously on the weekend though. Be advised during this General Order, every other J from Jamaica gets turned back at Eastern Pkwy. I will post details if I see the G.O. when I go into work today. BTW, I wonder if the G.O. will work on weekends right away since the split service G.O. on the L is still going on.
So far, no General Order has been issued for bridge construction. I was told they will try to run regular service while construction is going on, at least for now.
Hasn't the right hand lane of the inner city bound lanes been closed for over a year for the storage of construction equipment?
No, they have been using it when lighter work is going on. Just tonight they had one of its lanes open, and the other had the construction equipment.
That's what I meant, I guess I did not word it very well.
In fact, during morning rush don't they sometimes use the inner two lanes for Brooklyn bound, and convert them to city bound just during rush hour?
Channel 4 11oclock news said it will NOT affect subway service.
Over the last 15 years, they have been doing major rebuilding of the entire bridge, replaceing everything except the towers, cables, and superstructure. The new project is to rebuild the approaches and roadways for the north side of the bridge. There will be only two lanes in each direction, and no trucks allowed Manhattan-bound, for the next year and a half. The project includes complete replacement of the approach viaducts, stringers, and deck, along with the connecting viaduct to the BQE. As with previous reconstruction on the bridge, the majority of the support work is alrady complete (concrete pilliars for the new roadway), and once closed, most of the work will involve the structural steel and demolition.
-Hank
Isn't it true that one of the main cables is rusted through completely? They shut the bridge down completely once in the mid-to-late 80s when this was discovered.
Probably rebuilding the Manhattan-bound roadways, including complete replacement of the approaching ramps. This was done on the Brooklyn bound roadways in 1997. It'll cut traffic capacity on the bridge by 50%, but won't affect subway service.
According to the NYCT web site mid-day service will run every 24 minutes on the J and no M past Broadway-Myrtle. I pasted the following from the NYCT site
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvno.htm#JLine
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvno.htm#MLine
Really loud Fireworks have been going off for about 10 minutes now. And I live about a mile from Chinatown!
Gong Hay Fah Toy!
(Happy New Year!)
Xi Nin Kaui Le!!! (in Mandarin)
Wow! In Cantonese!
Chaohwa
How's that for weird karma? After work today I headed down to Chicago's Chinatown district on pure whim, without even knowing it was Chinese New Year. No "official" celebration this evening (There will be a parade next weekend), but lots of kids setting off firecrackers out in the street.
Chinatown, whether in Chicago, New York or Boston, always seems to be one of my favorite parts of the city. Must be something about all the lights and colors, the signs and the streetscape, the shops and restaurants, the street vendors and open-air markets. It's almost to the point of sensory overload, and Chinatown tends to be pretty close to my idea of the ideal urban environment.
I'm actually giving some pretty serious consideration to visiting Hong Kong within the next couple years. (London is first on my list of overseas cities to visit, which I may actually do this spring or summer if time and finances permit.) Anybody here ever been to Hong Kong? I'm especially interested in exploring the more active streets and open-air night markets... Seems like it would be like another world to me, and I think it would be very inspiring and memorable. Many of you know that Blade Runner is my all-time favorite movie, and that's in large part due to the incredibly vibrant street scenes in the movie. The movie depicts a futuristic vision of 21st Century Los Angeles, but a good friend of mine who lived in the Far East for many years informs me there's actually very little about Blade Runner that's really all that futuristic; it's simply a fact of life in most major cities over there. (The movie also seems to attempt to paint a picture of all that is supposedly evil with a dense city, but unwittingly ends up showing exactly what many of us city-lovers find so appealing about urban life.)
Food for thought... Munch away.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I couldn't agree more. The music in Chinatown is always better as well. Stores sell great chinese music, as well as many english language songs that were too soft for U.S. standards. And prices are cheaper.
The smells of the chinese food, the exotic designs. And the beautiful women. They just put a big, big spell on me. Especially when they pull their hair back with those mystical clips.
Chinatown will always be my favorite part of NYC!
XI NIN KAUI LE!!!!
As for me, no trip to NYC is complete without a visit to Chinatown!!
In fact, most of my NYC friends are Asian, and a few live in or close
to Chinatown. It's a shame that Philly's Chinatown isn't as bustling
as NYC's, since I live in the Philly area.
Don't quote me on this, but I had thought Philly's Chinatown was bigger than NY's. While NY has more Chinese people, they don't actually live in Chinatown. But I may be wrong. Toronto's is the largest I've ever been to. It just goes on for block after block after block and includes several indoor shopping malls that are entirely Chinese.
I was at HK two years ago and it was HOT. But the city is cool and the culture is really rich. If you don't speak cantonese, you'll still do fine because evrything is in english too. The Mass Transit Railray (MTR) is their subway and it is VERY fast and quiet. When you arrive there, you will arrive at the BRAND NEW Airport on Lantau Island. Be sure to take the MTR Airport Express which takes you from the sirport into the center of HK at about 90mph on stretches! A subway train doing 90? Yes. But they are not normal cars, and although they are operated by the MTR, they have TVs built into the seat heads and have giant seats.
Also be sure to take the commuter rail, Kowloon Canton Railway (KCR) to the Chinese border. The guards will turn you around, but at least you'll see it. The KCR just got brand new MUs and brand new electric locomotives (same as ADtranz Deutsche Bahn class 101). The KCR also operates mainline freight over the commuter tracks and a light rail system in Tien Mun.
You'll also enjoy the double-decker trolleys that are always a hit with the tourists.
When I went I stayed with relatives so I lived near the Chinese border and had to take the trains everyday. It was great. Just prepare yourself for the 22 hour flight (don't get coach seats).
Gong hay sun nin
(that's how you REALLY say happy new year. The other transliteration with 'fat choy' means something like growing prosperity)
-Dan
If I wasn't afraid to fly, or had the money, HK would be the first city outside the U.S. I'd see. It is modern, has great mass transit, and still has traditional chinese culture. NYC could really learn a lesson from Hong Kong.
Today I had the pleasure of seeing someone undressing in the extreme front of the 34th-6th ave IND station from the F. Let me tell you, it wasn't pretty. Lately 34th street is a real homeless hangout.
If I wasn't afraid to fly, or had the money, HK would be the first city outside the U.S. I'd see. It is modern, has great mass transit, and still has traditional chinese culture. NYC could really learn a
lesson from Hong Kong.
Just a couple of days ago, I was looking at this website (naturally, I forgot to bookmark it) that used a mathematical model to list and rank the world's most impressive city skylines. Hong Kong was second in the world to New York. It had something like 450 buildings in excess of 90 meters, compared to New York's 530 or so; no other city had even as many as 300.
IIRC, the other cities in the world's top ten were Chicago (#3), Shanghai(#4), and (I don't remember specific rankings) Tokyo, Singapore, Sydney, Houston, Manila and Kuala Lumpur.
New York has the best city skyline?
Okay, I've quietly tolerated your repeated defenses of Wal-Mart and the suburban lifestyle, but now you've really crossed the line. :-)
I'm curious what sort of mathematical formula they used and what variables were factored in. In my own extremely objective opinion as an architect and as a Chicagoan, I'd have to rank our fine city's skyline as the world's most magnificent skyline. I say that for the following reasons:
1) Chicago's skyline has a well-proportioned profile from any angle, and forms a unified whole capped at each end by the Sears Tower and Hancock Center. Manhattan's skyline is awkwardly lumped into two major parts (Downtown and Midtown) with a large "valley" of low-rise buildings between.
2) The vast majority of the skyscrapers that form Chicago's skyline are each of some architectural or engineering distinction, some more than others. New York and Hong Kong each have some architecturally noteworthy major buildings, but neither city can claim a landmark-quality building on almost every downtown block.
3) The few architecturally noteworthy major buildings in NYC and Hong Kong were usually designed by out-of-town architects, as neither city really has an indigenous architectural tradition specific to that city. (Don't forget that even New York's famed Flatiron Building was designed by a Chicago architect.) With a few exceptions, the vast majority of Chicago's skyscrapers were designed by homegrown architectural talent.
4) Above all, Chicago invented the skyscraper, and Chicago developed most of the modernist aesthetic vocubulary by which modern skyscrapers are designed. Aside from the historical signifigance, this gives the skyline a much more unified look as opposed to a hodgepodge of conflicting design styles. (New York is best known for its famed art deco skyscrapers such as the Empire State and Chrysler Buildings, but that particular style is merely an import from Paris.)
There's no denying that New York and Hong Kong each have very impressive skylines, but my overall point is that it's the quality that counts much more than the quantity.
(My information about Hong Kong's local architecture is admittedly a bit thin, and I'll gladly revisit my conclusions as I learn more about that city's architecture.)
Again, I must emphasize that as an architect and as a Chicagoan, I have no personal bias in this matter whatsoever. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
lack of bias notwithstanding, In my book Chicago certainly beats New York (I have not been to HK)
From what I recall, the site used both a mathematical model and a simple counting of high-rise buildings (>90 meters) to achieve its rankings. What was noteworthy was the fact that New York and Hong Kong were so far ahead of any other cities when it came to sheer numbers of high-rises. New York was about 80 buildings ahead of Hong Kong, and then there was a dropoff of almost 200 to the third place city, which was either Chicago or Shanghai. Architectural merit wasn't considered.
I'm going to try to search out the site, probably by using Deja to look through m.t.r. postings.
I'd vote for Istanbul for sheer beauty.
...Above all, Chicago invented the skyscraper...
New York was home to the world's tallest building at least as far back as 1890 (The New York World building), until the construction of the Sears Tower. And the first steel framed building, which is the "invention of the skyscraper," was NYC's Cooper Union Foundation Building in 1858, even if it was only six stories (now eight).
Most architects consider the now demolished Home Insurance building in Chicago to be the first skyscraper. I'm not at home right now, but I have a book that says when it was built. If no one else posts it, I'll post it when I get home.
Interesting thing about the Home Insurance building was that its style made it look like any other building at the time, with a thick stone base, even though that base was no longer a functional part of the building.
The Home Insurance building, built 1884-5, is considered to be the first "skyscraper" because it is believed to be the first steel-framed building, which it isn't. I don't know how tall it was, though.
On-topic: the Cooper Union Foundation Building's frame is (supposedly) actually made from rails :).
The technical definition of a skyscraper is an elevator building of ten stories or more that is supported by a structural frame. Cooper Union Foundation Building is close, but no cigar. (A "high-rise", by contrast, is defined by building codes as any building over 75 feet tall, the cut-off height for ladders on fire trucks.)
Chicago's Home Insurance Building of 1884 is widely regarded as the world's first true skyscraper. (That said, its construction was actually a hybrid between frame and masonry construction.) The Manhattan Building in Chicago by the same architect, William LeBaron Jenny, built four years later was the first skyscraper to use frame construction throughout.
New York may have been the holder of the world's-tallest title for more years than Chicago -- because NYC's city blocks are much smaller and therefore dictated taller building heights -- but the title-holder actually swapped between the two cities a number of times. Chicago held the world's-tallest title as early as 1892 with Burnham and Root's 21-story Masonic Temple building.
That issue aside, almost every technical and artistic innovation that made skyscrapers feasible was either developed or perfected in Chicago. Among them:
The basic construction system of steel-frame buildings still commonly used today, called Chicago Construction.
Diagonal bracing to counteract against wind loads.
The method of fireproofing steel structural members by means of clay tiles, a direct result of the Great Chicago Fire of 1871.
The development of "floating" foundations to carry the weight of skyscrapers on unstable soil.
The development of the hydraulic elevator, a vast improvement over Elisha Otis's awkward steam-driven "safety hoist".
Years later, the development of caissons to carry structural loads down to bedrock.
The format of the modern architectural firm, since skyscrapers were too large and complicated to be designed by a single architect.
Forced-air climate control, first used on a large scale in Louis Sullivan's Auditorium Building (the major components of which are still in operation).
On a more artistic level, the integration of art and engineering that invented a truly new architectural style that made tall buildings aesthetically appealing in their own right, rather than just overblown versions of traditional building types. New York, by contrast, merely replicated whatever style happened to be fashionable in Europe at the time.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The technical definition of a skyscraper is an elevator building of ten stories or more that is supported by a structural frame. Cooper Union Foundation Building is close, but no cigar. (A "high-rise", by contrast, is defined by building codes as any building over 75 feet tall, the cut-off height for ladders on fire trucks.)
OK
New York may have been the holder of the world's-tallest title for more years than Chicago -- because NYC's city blocks are much smaller and therefore dictated taller building heights -- but the title-holder actually swapped between the two cities a number of times. Chicago held the world's-tallest title as early as 1892 with Burnham and Root's 21-story Masonic Temple building.
The New York World building was 7' taller than the Masonic Temple; the Temple had the title of highest occupied floor space, a title which the Sears Tower still holds today.
But both cities have nice skylines and a lot of tall buildings :)
Don't forget Philadelphia City Hall was once the tallest building in the world (just slightly shorter than the Eiffel Tower, which isn't a true building). But then Philadelphia was once... and was once...; but is no more?
This isn't the right place to ask, but I'm sure that someone can point me to some engineering sites:
Your point about clay tiles reminds me of a construction site near my high school. There were many (I entered a school surrounded on all sides by empty lots and left one with only the side fronting the Hudson River to be open), but this was the first one. First I saw the bare steel I-beams coming up, then one Monday I came back to see them surrounded by this craggly concretelike material that still showed the I shape of the columns, then (I didn't see what they did) they were surrounded by smooth concrete and were now just rectangular-prismic in shape.
So what did they do? Did they use forms like the columns for the Airtrain on the Van Wyck?
That gray "craggly" material is actually fire retardant, a modern-era successor to the clay tiles I mentioned. It is sprayed on by high-pressure hoses and serves as an insulator to make the steel more resistant to fire damage. (Architects hesitate to use the word "fireproof" for the same reasons that shipbuilders hesitate to use the word "unsinkable".)
What I don't understand about the project you mention is why the fire-resistant steel was then encased in concrete. You can spray on fire retardant material to make steel fire-resistant or you can encase it in concrete to make it fire-resistant, but I can't imagine any reason why steel already covered in fire retardant would then be encased in concrete. I'll ask around at the office tomorrow and see if any of the building construction gurus can enlighten me.
I'm not familiar with the Airtrain project, but almost all concrete construction uses forms. The types of forms and types of concrete can vary widely, but the fundamental method of concrete construction is the same: 1) Build a box, 2) Pour wet concrete into box, 3) Wait for concrete to set, and 4) Break box apart to reveal hardened concrete.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That's exactly what's being done on the airtrain. A blue "cup" shaped like the future beam is placed around the re-bar once the re-bar has been constructed, then the concrete is poured and the mold is removed some time later and placed on another future column.
Okay, I asked a couple guys at the office who make a living supervising construction of new buildings, and they came up with three possible reasons that a steel structural member would first be sprayed with fire retardant and then encased in concrete:
1) The fire retardant may actually be some sort of compressible insulation, and having it form a layer between the steel and concrete would allow the steel structure to retain a degree flexibility without forming cracks in the concrete.
2) The steel members in question required an unusually high fire rating for some reason, something that neither the fire retardant or concrete would be able to achieve alone but could both achieve together.
3) It could be a mistake. The guy doing the spraying accidentally sprayed steel that was meant to be buried in concrete, but by the time the mistake was realized, the fire retardant had already hardened and could not be removed. The only thing to do was to simply bury it in concrete along with the steel.
Birth of a Skyscraper
On a somewhat related note: I've been in Chicago for over seven years, and during much of that time the city has seen an incredible building boom. I've seen quite a number of skyscrapers get built over the past couple years, but I've never been in a position where I was walking past a construction site every day and be able to monitor progress on a large new skyscraper, starting from a big hole in the ground and topping out 60 stories into the sky.
Well, in the middle of the Chicago Loop there is a half-block site bounded by State, Dearborn and Adams Streets that has been a vacant lot for years, and is now the site of a major new skyscraper project. The 60-story office building now under construction there is the largest skyscraper being built in Chicago at the moment, designed by Spanish architect Ricardo Bofil in association with Chicago-based DeStefano + Partners. My walk between the Red Line stop at Jackson and my office in the Sears Tower takes me past this site every day, and up until very recently there's been nothing but a huge hole in the ground surrounded by plywood construction barriers.
Over the course of this past week, however, the steelwork for the building finally rose out of the hole and is now about thirty feet above street level, forming a portion of the future elevator core. New steelwork is now being added almost every day, and two huge construction cranes are now in place. Maybe it's my passion for architecture and the art of building, or maybe I just heap way too much symbolic meaning on some things, but for me it's been a very moving experience watching the "birth" of a great skyscraper this past week. These first few pieces of steel will soon carry the weight of 60 floors of office space, and this building will most likely still be a part of Chicago's skyline for a long time after all of us have left this world. Hopefully, I'll be able to follow the progress of this thing for the next couple years until it is completed.
At my own job I've been mildly frustrated by a series of impossible deadlines, unenlightened design decisions, and a cheapskate client for this Milwaukee project I've been working on. But watching these first few piece of a great skyscraper being put in place helps me forget my temporary frustrations and reminds me of why I chose this profession in the first place. Hopefully someday I'll be watching the first few pieces of some other skyscraper being placed on some other site, except this time the skyscraper being built will be one that I designed myself.
Anyway, just though I'd share... Here's a toast to all the great skyscrapers yet to be dreamed.
-- David
Chicago, IL
In boston the new pru tower is going to make the back bay skyline look good.
Yep, it's fun and a bit awe-inspiring to watch a new skyscraper or other tall building rise. It seems as if the steelwork phase actually goes quite quickly. I personally like the part where the exterior curtain-wall panels are put in place - the step makes the building look, well, building-like :-)
The building in question is the Tribeca Bridge Tower at 450 North End Avenue (between Chambers and Warren Streets) in Battery Park City.
Most of the building did not have concrete encased steel, the part that did was heavier duty and had higher ceilings than most of the building. It currently contains a K-8 school. The rest of the building around and above the school is residential.
I love watching a skyscraper being built, too. One of the skyscrapers being built now here another BellSouth building, right now it's around 20 stories high and all the steel work and concrete is exposed. This is my favorite part of construction. Watching skyscrapers being built is one of the reasons I'm a civil engineering major. David, you like to design 'em, I like to build 'em :)
I haven't been there, but Hong Kong has a very impressive skyline. Lots of cool looking buildings. I've been to Sao Paulo a dozen times, and that skyline is outstanding in terms of the number of skyscrapers. They just go on forever, and more are being built all the time. The suburbs in Sao Paulo would be mistaken for another big city if someone didn't know better. I can say with authority that New York doesn't have near as many skypscrapers as Sao Paulo.
I like Atlanta's skyline. For anyone who visits Atlanta, take the westbound train from King Memorial to Georgia State, and on the right, you'll see a very impressive view of the city. You have Downtown in the foreground and Midtown blends in with it and Buckhead is further in the distance. Very impressive.
I can say with authority that New York doesn't have near as many skypscrapers as Sao Paulo.
Not quite. I found the site. New York has 586 buildings in excess of 90 meters, while Sao Paulo, whose skyline is ranked #52 in the world, has 31.
I like Atlanta's skyline. For anyone who visits Atlanta, take the westbound train from King Memorial to Georgia State, and on the right, you'll see a very impressive view of the city. You have Downtown in the foreground and Midtown blends in with it and Buckhead is further in the distance. Very impressive.
Atlanta's skyline is ranked #17 in the world, with 52 buildings over 90 meters.
A highly statistical approach, with no allowance for aesthetics. Raleigh at 195? Give me a break. No, it's not going to be in first place, but it certainly should be in the first 100. The view, especially as you approach the city from S. Saunders Street, is breathtaking.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now that Philadelphia has finally realized it is a city and has built skyscrapers, I think we have a very beautiful skyline that sorts of rises from all sides to a central highpoint, One Liberty Place.
The definition of skyline I had learned was habitable buildings over 500' high, of which Philadelphia has 9(NYC has something between 130 and 160, the most in the world, of course).
Two more skyscrapers are planned for Center City across the street from Suburban Station and one is supposed to surpass Liberty One's 945 foot spire.
I've also always thought Chicago's was very pleasing to look at, although it seems that the sheer height of the Sears Tower detracts slightly since there's nothing nearly as tall close by. NYC's skyline, for all it's grandeur, is so disproportionate because of the Downtown/Midtown split-up. Midtown by itself is spectacular from a distance but Downtown looks like the little lost brother. Those gargantuan World Trade Center Towers totally contrast all the other building downtown, mostly in sheer mass.
I've also always thought Chicago's was very pleasing to look at, although it seems that the sheer height of the Sears Tower detracts slightly since there's nothing nearly as tall close by.
Two fairly tall buildings built within the past ten years, the AT&T Center and 311 South Wacker Drive, now fill out the area around the Sears Tower rather nicely.
-- David
Chicago, IL
They only count the number of buildings over 90m. A skyscaper, by definition, is a building that is supported by a steel skeleton. However, there are definitions that say they have to be a over certain height, and that's an acceptable definition, because skyscrapers should stand out, but the former defintion has been around since the first skyscraper. Did you take a look at the photo of Sao Paulo? There's no way you can say that it shouldn't be ranked higher.
I went and looked at the site... Certainly interesting. Although it's based on mathematical forumulas with no account taken on aesthetics, I'd still say it's rather subjective; it looks like he took a few liberties in deciding which numerical values to asign to particular buildings.
Also, I think the mathematical formula gives an unfair advantage to cities like Kuala Lumpur. A small handful of super-tall buildings surrounded by shantytown slums does not an impressive skyline make. I've seen photos of Kuala Lumpur, and it's quite possibly the ugliest city "skyline" I've ever seen; Cincinnati, by contrast, has a beatiful skyline (especially considering how comparitively small of a city Cincy is), but doesn't rank nearly as high simply because it has fewer and shorter buildings.
I thought the poll on the site was very interesting, though, where people vote on their favorite skyline. Chicago came out well on top, followed by New York. Hong Kong ranks a distant third-place, with Seattle and Houston filling out the top five.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go back to the site and vote "The Chicago Way" a few more times to cushion our lead over New York. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Also, I think the mathematical formula gives an unfair advantage to cities like Kuala Lumpur. A small handful of super-tall buildings surrounded by shantytown slums does not an impressive skyline make. I've seen photos of Kuala Lumpur, and it's quite possibly the ugliest city "skyline" I've ever seen
I'll bet the same "trophy building skew" is true for many other Asian cities, such as Shanghai and Manila. Most U.S. cities seem to have more of a mix of building heights and therefore a more seamlessly integrated look.
One other problem with the site is that it does not take natural surroundings into account. Houston is ranked higher than San Francisco because it has more high rises, but it's hard to imagine that anyone would consider it more esthetically pleasing.
Your source indicates that it has incomplete data for Sao Paolo.
Al Gore's not up to much, maybe he'd be up for a recount.
SORRY!
Don't forget that even New York's famed Flatiron Building was designed by a Chicago architect.
Did you know there's an eariler Flatiron building in Atlanta? It was built in the 1890s, five or so years before the NY one. It's still there looking cool, but it's not as tall as the one in NY.
Honk Kong S MTR is great. 90 second headway during rush hours, trains clean and quick. I did a report to you guys last March when I was there. but nobody seemed to pay attention. The new subway from the City to the airport 18 miles, 22 minutes 3 stops. can check your bags from Central and Kowloon Stations direct to planes, if check in is over 2 hours.
Honk Kong S MTR is great. 90 second headway during rush hours, trains clean and quick. I did a report to you guys last March when I was there. but nobody seemed to pay attention. The new subway from the City to the airport 18 miles, 22 minutes 3 stops. can check your bags from Central and Kowloon Stations direct to planes, if check in is over 2 hours. Also Hong Kong island still has old double deck trams(Trolley) videoed entire system. New Territories has LRT, plus the Star Ferry for only 6 cents 1st class across the harbour
Did you see our Hong Kong photos on the site?
I'd go over there with you if you could wrangle me a business class upgrade. :-)
Give me a sedative for my fear of flying, a few thousand bucks and I could go. Those subways must be awesome. And the girls.....!
Yeah, I did... Those double-decker trolleys are certainly a weird sight.
I'll consider your offer. Is this a SubTalk field trip to Hong Kong I see in my crystal ball? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Xi Nin Kaui Le!!!
I'll be in Chinatown (as well as Flushing) alot to celebrate the Chinese New Year!!!
I always use Pinyin to type Chinese. If tones are considered,
Happy New Year would be
Xin1 Nian2 Kuai4 Le4
in Mandarin Chinese.
Chaohwa
I haven't heard these fireworks for a while. I really miss the fireworks when a lunar year starts. That's the most exciting time.
Chaohwa
Well, my officemate and I went to Chinatown for lunch today (to the Cherry St. Kosher Vegetarian Restaurant as seen on Food TV). There were no dragon parades or such, but there were tons of kids setting off some pretty big fireworks at every corner the entire time we were there. It was very vibrant.
Well I was in Chinatown in NYC today, and they take it pretty seriously over there (compared to Flushing). I'd say at least 90% of the business were closed except for a few music stores and large resteruants. The normally crazy Grand/Chrystie area was quiet.
But the dragons were dancing, visiting the Jin Fong resteruant in the "old" section as well as Triple Eight Palace on East Broadway. There were lots of people around by noon, alot of tourists and media, and when I had to leave the Grand street station was busy.
Conway expected to ANNOUCE HIS RETIREMENT today. Talk of 2nd Avenue Problems.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooo.
Story of lawsuit in NY POST
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't blame him. Losing both legs, you need someone to blame. And no one's going to (nor do they have the right to) walk up to him and say "should have stepped away from the platform edge" unless they, too, have lost both legs (or an equivalent). A real tragedy.
E VIRGIL TO SAY BYE
Peace,
ANDEE
Virgil has the MTA planning to issue $22 billion in debt -- without financing any improvments. Think about it: that's got to be $1.5 billion per year in interest, or about $1.00 per subway ride, FOREVER.
He's getting out before the bill comes due.
Yeah, you got that right. He's also leaving taking credit for things whose groundwork was laid by Peter Stangl. Good riddance, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
PS- Chris Boylan is really the person who runs the MTA anyway.
Peace,
ANDEE
This editorial sounds just like one of my previous posts:
Right PATH to Single Fare
Makes sense for the PA to accept Metrocard. I'm sure the MTA & PA can work out technical & financial agreements to make it possible. I don't understand what's holding up the development of next generation 'smart' Metrocards. If it's just the readers that have to be upgraded then it shouldn't take till 2003. But then again we are talking about the MTA, an agency that had to be dragged into the information age, and proves it with a third-rate website.
You've got to remember that implementing Metrocard was so expensive that the SI Ferry found it cheaper to eliminate the fare.
What class of subway cars is going to be used on the "V" line? Since it is scheduled to run mostly on IND track, I assume it will either use R-32's or R-44/46's. My question is, where will the TA get the extra cars until the new IND cars are ready? Divert them from other lines?
they could take some R-46 from the G since it won't need as many set with the shorter run
The T/A is going to run IRT Red Birds on the "V" line. They are going to put extension on the sides of the cars much like they did with the Low-V's back in the 60's. Long live the Red Birds.
Robert
Wrong! They're installing gap fillers along the entire length of the platforms for V stations.
I forgot the T/A like to go for the plain the cost the more MONEY.
Robert
"Most MONEY"
Robert
are you serious??? That means that the V will have to slow after every station for them to clear??? The Fs and Rs will catch up to it after 2 stops!
You thought I was serious?
Thats way my Idear was better. The train won't have to slow down when leaving the station.
Robert
Nobody would have to slow down for straight gap fillers. The curve fillers would be knocked out by the train if it moved quickly past them.
That's sad that they are so desperate they have to pull A-division trains for the B-division. First of all, the line is redundant as I have always said, and can easily be replaced in Queens by the Q. Second, what are they going to do in 2-3 years when the Redbirds will either be at the bottom of the ocean or painted yellow for sanitation purposes?
There is no truth in the story of Rustbirds being used on the V.
Peace,
ANDEE
Could the M-1s be used in any portions of the current "B" division, without any or only a teeny weeny modification to the tunnel structure. What is/are he tightest turns they could make. Could their deminsions fit the IND say from Jamacia center to WTC? or 179th to second ave? Or maybe Court Square to Smith-9th Sts?
Remember there are no dumb questions, just dumb answers.
avid
No the M-1s are too long at 85 feet
Peace,
ANDEE
Damn! And *I* was the one who wanted to let loose with "OH the HUMANITY!" ... but I would really really enjoy watching them trying to cram one up the Nassau St line ... after all, they trashed two lovely R1's (575 and 675) so the least they could do is wrap an M-1 around some steel work ...
Thats a line built to Dual contracts ,I believe. I think the max car was the BMT standard, 67 ft. if at all possible, I think the IND branch may have a few lengths capable of swallowing the M-1s without gaging.
avid
Those were R-4's.
As for M-1s they may have substantial bulkheads at the car ends but the sides are just about tin and have no resistance to any kind of impact. Look what happened in Babylon back in 1980 in a slow-speed derailment; #9625 mounted the platform, came in contact with the platform canopy and just about ripped itself in two.
wayne
There is no place it could be used? A lot of the curves on the IND are kinda gradual, not tight. Whats the M-1 overhang, whats the width of some of these tunnel turns?
Lets not give up too easiely.
avid
I think that the A line would be a good candidate.
Peace,
ANDEE
On the A or C it would get caught on the turn between WTC and Fulton Street and on the turn between Jay St. and Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
On the B, D, E or F it would get caught making the turns on/off of 53rd St.
On the G, it would be the turn onto Lafayette Ave, and the curve onto Broadway in Queens.
That pretty much leaves the H -- Rockaway Shuttle, which was built to LIRR specs in the first place. For some reason, the idea of the MTA running M-1s exclusively out in the Rockaways strikes me as both pretty unlikely, and pretty funny.
I think the "E" deserves a closer look and maybe THE NEW IMPROVED 63rd St tunnel route for the Flying "F".
There is always the SIRT .
We searching for cars to create spares.
avid
P.S. What about a "P" train Contintal to Lower level City Hall Via 63rd St tunnel?
[We searching for cars to create spares.]
How about taking a few of those PCC's from the Newark City Subway!
Yes. Two possible tight turns though.
south bound , leaving Chambers St to Bway Naussa and leaving Jay St to Hoyt.
In both directions. The hang over in the center or at the ends of the cars MAY be tight.
What about the "G" from Court SQ To Smith & 9 ?
The "E" , Its current Normal service or 179 to WTC?
avid
The M-1 would never clear the "S" curve north of 168th Street nor would they clear the curve south of Chambers-H&M.
wayne
We went over this possibility a year ago. While it would seemlingly make sense to use some of the `Birds as rush-hour only put-ins on some of the less heavily used lines (Eastern Division, maybe the C of the G)by putting extensions on them, thereby freeing up the regular B division equipment for use on the V, the MTA apparently has decided not to do it for safety concerns.
Any increase in B division rolling stock will have to wait until the R-143s arrive and they can shift some of the R-40/40M/42s over from the Eastern Division to the other lines.
Isn't the G already running with 6 cars during rush hours and 4 during off-peak hours?
Geez, the G is turning into a Shuttle.
It would become 4 cars 24/7, and short turn at Court Sq.
Cross Town Shuttle to Court Sq Smith-9th - Court Square. boy its getting sad. The G was always a rather moody depressing line
It was designed to be a feeder line for IND routes into Manhattan, most of which were never built. It's original purpose has never been realized.
Yup, and if it wasn't all subway, it'd be on the fast track towards demolition, like the Culver and Myrtle Ave. els.
Probably R46s. They like to R46 the QB line to death.
:-) Andrew
Now that you mention it, the R-46s have become more or less associated with the F, having run on that line for as long as they have.
I associate them with any Queens Blvd. route, as I've almost never ridden then anywhere else, except for a brief period in 1987 when they ran on the N to Astoria.
The V line will be comprised mostly of R46's with an occasional R32 thrown in when cars come up short. The new side sign code lists in the cabs have been revised to include the two new V codes. Off memory they are:
371:V to 2 Av/Manhtn-----via 6 Av
5??:V 71/Continental-----6 Av Local (I'll have the full code that starts with 5 tomorrow).
The G line's fleet responsibility will be transferred from Jamaica Yard to Coney Island Yard and the G will use R68/R68A equipment.
The R46's currently used on the G (including the A-A units) will be used on all Jam.Yd. lines (E/F/R/V).
Out of curiosity, when is the V line expected to start revenue service? -Nick
Tentatively in August 2001.
WhatdItellya! Aren't we QB riders sick enough of the 46's already? Oh, if I keep having to see those awful digital signs....Ah, whatever!
:-) Andrew
I would love to have the 46s on the D train. The mellow interiors alone would be worth it. If you QB riders would take the 68s.
One mans meat is another mans poison.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't like that! The already slow and painful F train is bad enough with the R46. Don't be sending any R68s over because I have been on two of them and that is more times than enough. Leave the Failure to fail in the way it already does, don't make it worse.
Yeah Concourse, keep your Hippos we don't want 'em in Queens!
I don't think the R-46s are that bad. The door chimes, well, that's another story....
The R46 is as swift as any car in the fleet, so they do nothing to hamper movement on the F line, unless you factor in the fewer doors per car adding idle time at each station.
68's on Queens Blvd? Don't scare me like that!
R68s on the QB? Dear god nooooo!!!
The visual assault of all that shiny stainless steel combined with the aural assault of the whining buzzing motors and the broken PA would kill me at 7:25 AM. Plus, they'd ruin the 60th St. tunnel.
I'll keep my nice mellow, comforting R46s, thank you very much.
Dan
"Plus, they'd (R68s) ruin the 60th St. tunnel."
FYI, R68s already run through the 60th Street tunnel on the 'N'. The much-maligned Hippos actually do run fast through the tube, especially Manhattan-bound- assuming there's no congestion ahead.
People gripe that Astoria-bound, the R68 dies a slow, painful death coming out of the portal and into QP. To be fair, the train not only headed uphill, but to the UPPER LEVEL. R32s and Slants slow down dramatically as well.
Those trains need granny gears to climb that grade, it seems.
What's a "granny gear" ?
Peace,
ANDEE
I think it's a notched rail between the running rails which attaches to a gear under the train. I don't know where I heard this, but it's the best explanation I can think of. Be kind if I'm wrong.
You're wrong! A "granny gear" is so known because it makes a vehicle move at the same speed as granny - very, very slow, but also very, very steady. It's the extremely low creeper gear that big trucks use to start heavy loads with on an upgrade, or first gear in when the transfer case is in low range on a 4WD.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Couldn't have explained it better myself.:-) The Steinway Lo-Vs had granny gears of sorts, as they were geared lower specifically for the steep grades of the Steinway tubes. BTW, how much steeper are those tubes compared to, say, the Joralemon St. tunnel?
Well my friend, my vote cancels out your vote. The R46's are some of the best trains in the system to ride and to operate.
Ride an R46 express from Queens Plaza to Continental Avenue. Then take the same ride on an R32. Notice the heavy swaying and jumping on the R32? Notice how much quieter the R46's ride is? It's like night and day as far as the ride between the two car classes. Bottom line: the R46 stays put.
So there!
:P
Cheers! I love the R46s for their smooth ride, QUIETNESS and attractive (for a subway car) interior.
Also, a question about the QB Express. As far as I can see it's got two problems: Crowding and timers. The crowding probably can't be helped since the 2-3 minute headways can't be shortened much (?) and yet I hear complaint after complaint about the line. What's the problem?
Dan
The problem is people boarding at the Roosevelt Avenue station. Because of the overcrowding at this station, it backs up service when a train is held in the station for an extended period of time. That and the Qns Blvd line is always good for a sick passenger or two to really throw it out of whack.
This station was not designed correctly. This is a huge x-fer point, and it has narrower platforms than Queens Plaza or Forest Hills. Can you imagine the crowding had the Myrtle/Central/Rockaway line been built, stopping on the unused upper platform? Utica Ave. on the Fulton St. was designed extra wide for this same purpose.
71-Continental Ave is built under Queens Blvd and can take advantage of the 200' mapped width of the street, while Roosevelt Ave is under Broadway, which is probably only a 100'-120' ROW. I'm not sure about the layout of Queens Plaza, but my guess is they have a lot of ROW with the bridge approaches being above.
Had it been built, I would have expected through service during peak service and Terminal service non-peak .
I'd make Woodhaven/Slattery Plaza an express stop as well . It would releive some of the crowding on the Roosevelt Platforms. It be a relief right now.
avid
You can't fit 10 pounds of sugar in a 5 pound bag!
Bags aren't rated by mass, they're rated by volume.
If you can remove the empty space between the grains of 10 pounds of sugar, you can store it in a bag designed for 5 pounds of uncompressed sugar.
Science was my worst subject!
i really don't mind using r46's for the V line. however i do agree that the luminator sign needs to be changed to that of the r142a's. wouldn't u agree?
That means that the G will only run 4 or 8 car trains, since the R68/68A are grouped into 4 cars units.
Robert
The G will run four cars at all times.
"The G will run four cars at all times."
I can see this being okay during off-peak times when there are not as many riders, but wouldn't this be a problem during peak times? For someone who has relatives along the G line, I can tell you that they hate waiting up to 15 minutes during the day, and even up to 30 minutes at night and on weekends for the G to show up; overcrowded peak trains will just add fuel to the fire. -Nick
Well consider this. Service reliability will increase as the G will only share tracks with the F for 3 stops. So the G becomes like a mini-L or 7 line from Hoyt to Court Square. And service will operate at 10 minute intervals. There shouldn't be any major problems barring a massive service disruption. But then again, that applies to all the lines doesn't it?
That would be nice, but honestly, I'll have to see it to believe it. In addition, I hope the late-night intervals would be reduced too. Depending on where we are, at night sometimes it is quicker to get off the #7 at Vernon-Jackson and do the 20 minute walk over the polanski bridge then to wait for a G. -Nick
The F is a great line why do people sayit is a failure line. Its great rush hours. Runs many trains. Great in brooklyn except for sometimes inconvenient repairs after kings highway replaced by annoying shuttle bus. but over all good in manhattan even with local 6 av service. R-46 runs great. Nice and smooth, no annoying r-32 or 38 or even 40 swinging bouncing crap. and easy to hit the Krylon with. I like my F a lot
Straight from Train Dude's mouth:
The V line will use R46's. The current plan is to have the cars that will run on the shortened G route come from the CI yard. The R46's on the G will then be free for use on the V. This, along with the reduction of the number of "spares" at the Jamaica Yard will produce the necessary cars.
One morning last week while passing thru the Sunnyside Yard, I thought I saw an Acela engine. Does anyone know if this is likely? Can the Acela trains often/never be found there?
This morning there was an interesting number of various engines at Sunnyside. My knowledge of engines is nil so I don't know what they were - a couple of Amtrak 'yard?' engines, some green and white engines at the LIRR work area and an assortment of other Amtrak stuff.
The HHL-8 engines look a lot like the ACELA EXPRESS engines (pointy nose, etc.). The ACELA EXPRESS engines run in the 2000 series, and the HHLs in the 600 series -- that's the best way to tell. Chances are that if it was the engine alone you saw, it was an HHL-8, since the ACELA EXPRESS trains are not likely to be broken apart there. The two trainsets now in service have engines 2009/2020 and 2030-2031.
As AMTRAK tests/accepts the ACELA EXPRESS trainsets, I would think it reasonable to find them there from time-to-time. And as new passenger trips are added later this year, some of which will be BOS-NYP and WAS-NYP "turns," it again would be reasonable to find them there during the layover time.
I saw #630 pulling a set of regular Amtrak cars the other day as I was on a 7 train leaving Hunter's Point Avenue.
HHL-8 locos have the swoopy look of Acela Express--on BOTH ends. Also, I don't think the HHL-8s have ditch lights where the Acela sets do. HHL-8s also have their fronts flattened out from the nose down, unlike the Acela sets which are smooth and curve back in underneath. Most Acela equipment is kept at the 30th St. coch yard and Race st. yard in Philly. The green and white locos you saw are from the NYA and the small building they use is their engine shop. .
-Dan
They have to have some type of ditch lights as per FRA rule.
In my years of riding the LIRR I found Sunnyside a very interesting place for train watching. Besides the NY & Alt (green), you'll see NJ Transit, Amtrak (orange), various Amtrak electricts & now the LIRR dual modes.
Mr t__:^)
A new maintenace area was built/setup for HHP's and Acela at Sunnyside. Brand spanking new buildings (metal) setup west of the old ones.
Pete, The 63 St/City Hall/HBLR trip report begins at Message 185534
Thanks. I couldn't find it 'cause I was expecting the trip report to be at the beginning of its own thread. I wish I hadn't had to bail at City Hall. I have yet to see the HBLR stations and ROW north of Exchange Place.
In 1954 the General Electric Corp sponsored a night color photograph of the entire Horsehoe Curve near Altoona PA. I believe that this was in commemeration of the 100th Anniversary of the Curve. This picture made the news due to the work and the number of flash bulbs used to create and illuminate the scene. If I recall correctly, there were three trains on the Curve at the time.
A large frameable print of the picture was available to the public back then. These prints still turn up from time to time at shows and auctions.
In the 1970's a jigsaw puzzle was offered to the public of the same scene.
Has anyone ever seen the puzzle or know where one might be purchased?
Various internet searches have failed to locate it!
Is this curve the one which loops around and around to raise the grade of the tracks to a higher level? I saw this curve on the History Channel's "Trains Unlimited" show a while back. What a sight.
Yes
Isn't there another famous curve out west where the ROW actually loops around and crosses over itself in order to climb a very steep grade? I seem to recall seeing a photo of it in some coffee table book somewhere.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Tehachapi Loop
Coooool. Nice pic.
It used to be a four track main line until the 1960's and 1970's. I understand that there are only three tracks around the horseshoe now. It was a great place to take railfan pictures. There seemed to always be a train going up or coming down at the Horseshoe Curve!
Can you imagine what it must have been like watching Pennsy Triplexes or double and triple-headers pounding up those rails? Wow!
It must have have been beautiful!
Today I got on an E, F, G, and R, and all were R46s. The railfan window in the front ON ALL TRAINS did NOT have a black tint making it easier to see out through the cab. You can see the speed indicator as well as the light that tells the T/O when the doors are closed. Are they making all R46s like that, because it was pretty weird to see EVERY R46 that I got on today like that.
Lucky you. When I was in NYC, I missed an R32 E at Lex. The next to come in was an R46 E out of which you could barely see anything. The same goes for the R46 F trains I ride (although I despise the F aka "the failure" and like to avoid it whenever possible).
They've changed the cab door glass types due to complaints by the Train Operators about interior light glare. They're much better than the old ones. Now instead of completely covering up the old glass with newspaper to avoid glare, now I only put paper on the bottom third of the glass so that not only can the windshield portion that I see through be pitch black, but you can see too.
aaaah yes. THOSE RAILFAN WINDOWS ARE NOT GOING EASY!!!!!
The radio is reporting that a train has derailed on the Port Washington branch at Greenlawn. LI Bus has been asked to provide service around the problem.
Mr t__:-(
They were just announcing in Penn Station that they were "attempting" to get Bus Service started from Huntington to the other Port Jeff branch stations but, in the meantime, passengers should seek other means of transportation.
Fussy Correction: Greenlawn is on the Port JEFFERSON Branch.
:-) Andrew
As of 5:06 PM, all service is suspended between Huntington and Pt. Jeff, per CBS news. No injuries reported; it "felt like nothing happened."
According to Newsday.com the derailment was east of the Greenlawn Station near Stony Hollow Road. Pictures showed people being helped off the train and walking along the track. Since there are no streets near there. I think it may be near where the cut-off to the OLD Northport Station on RTE 25A was. The railroad bed slopes downward and curves to the right at that point.
The train was a shuttle from Hicksville to Port Jefferson. The accident happened at 1:10PM. Based on the location, its going to be tough to get equipment in there to correct and ameliorate the problem. Several weeks ago when the "genius" went around the 11th Street crossing, that spot is flat and has 2 or three tracks and several streets close by. The clean-up wasn't bad in that instance. Here, it is a one track spot and the snow covered terrain is going to be another obstacle for the LIRR to overcome.
The re-route plans are : Greenlawn and Northport - bus service from Huntington...Kings Park and Smithtown..bus service from Deer Park (Ronkonkoma Branch).....St James, Stony Brook and Port Jeff - bus service from Central Islip (Ronkonkoma).
Since this is about 3 miles from my house, I'll try to do a "Lou from Brooklyn" imitation and get over there and report back to everyone tomorrow.
A news copter shot overhead shot revealed single tracking. Maybe if this area was double tracked, perhaps service could be run around the affected area.
Could service be run around the wreck area if this portion was double tracked ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Also, they showed the train on the news. It was one of those double-deckers.
- Lyle Goldman
" Also, they showed the train on the news. It was one of those double-deckers.
The news said the diesel locomotive derailed, although the consist was moving slow.
Bill "Newkirk"
I went out last night at about 8:50 PM. The derailment was in a spot that was very inaccessible. I went north up Broadway into Greenlawn Village. Turned right and went East on Boulevard St (just north of the tracks). The gate at Taylor Avenue. I turned left and went north on Taylor Avenue and then turned right (east on to Wells Road).
Couldn't see anything between the houses on the south side of Wells. When I got to the intersection of Stony Hollow & Wells Rd., Stony Hollow was blocked off S/B by LIRR police. I continued East on Wells to Elwood (by Npt. HS) and proceeded south. Gates at Elwood were up but you couldn't see anything.
According to a news report, authorities suspect a cracked rail as the cause of the derailment.
In response to Bill Newkirk's question, double tracking would possibly have helped depending how far apart the tracks would be. In other words, if a second track was in position, would it have been far enough away to allow crews to work safely on the repair. However, I doubt double tracking will happen in my lifetime. Originally, the electrification plans called for double tracking from Huntington to Northport, but Bruce McGiver took the funds and electrified to Ronkonkoma instead. Given that the big push is now the East Side Connection to GCT, double tracking isn't a top priority.
Seeing what has occurred with the derailment, I still don't understand why double tracks weren't built EVERYWHERE throughout the LIRR system.
I see that single tracks exist (at least that I have seen) on the West Hempstead, Port Jefferson & Ronkonkoma Branches. When the system was first built, why couldn't they build two tracks along these lines instead of one? I have been on the Ronkonkoma line most recently and I know that certain areas will require some reconstruction to allow double tracking. But (according to the pictures I saw on the screen during the derailment), there seems to be enough room to provide double-tracking on this line... at least out to Northport.
If anybody knows the reason why certain areas received only one track of service, please post it on here or can e-mail directly @ Scruffy308@yahoo.com
Thank you.
The maintainence cost, it's that simple. There isn't enough ridership to justify enough service that they would need double-track. As for double-track providing for easier rerouting-99% of rail accidents block both tracks.
-Hank
Article on CBTC TRAINS destined for the Canarsie line.
Peace,
ANDEE
Anyone remember the robot train on the shuttle many years ago? Have match, won't travel ... FWIW, automated trains exist in a number of locations. But they all still have a motorman in the cab "just in case" ... think of this situation as a stronger move to OPTO perhaps, but not an abolition of someone to push the big red button if need be.
And in most cities where the trains are computer controlled, the motorman is required to actually operate the trains every now and then so they don't get too rusty ... I expect it will be the same game here.
Thanks Andee. But even the Village Voice is late on this one, even though it was well written by Andrew Friedman.
BMTman
Well, better late than never! (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
My new book "A Tale of Ten Cities", Volume One, "Rolling Thunder:The Elevated Railroad and the Urbanization of New York" is now available online (it will be hitting major bookstores soon) at www.publishamerica.com and can be ordered by calling this Toll-Free number: 1-877-333-7422. The retail price is $16.95 but it can be purchased online for just $14.95. For those of you on SubTalk who first expressed interest in this work when I first announced it several months ago, I thank you for your encouragement and hope the book is to your liking. Please note however that the add describes this book as a history of both the New York and Chicago systems when only the New York system is covered. On behalf of my publisher, I apologize for any confusion this may cause. The "L" in Chicago will be covered in Volume Two, "Windy Rails: The Elevated Railroad and the Transformation of Chicago" which I am working on now.
Thanking you in advance,
Eric Dale Smith
Here's hoping, Eric... I've just pledged $14.95 to your publisher for a copy...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
E Dogg,
Count me in too. How do I buy a copy on line ?
Bill "Newkirk"
How do I buy a copy on line ?
Follow this link and look alphabetically - it's under A, they don't alphabetize like a card catalogue does.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, actually, don't follow that link... not sure what happened, here's the correct one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the pointer. Just ordered mine.
--Mark
It seems like subtalk is a de-facto boys' club.If it is, then I'm no exception. Nonetheless, out of idle curiosity, do any women post here?
:-) Andrew
I can assure you it isn't, and I can't prove it, and don't ask anyone if they are. But there are women here.
-Hank
I am aware of at least two posters here who seem to be female - one who is a TA station agent and has either identified herself as a woman or been referred to by others who know her as "she", and one who's handle is subway_grrl, which would lead one to believe that she is, in fact, a female (though one never does know for sure on line!:-)).
subfan
I can assure you it isn't, and I can't prove it, and don't ask anyone if they are. But there are women here.
Even so, Subtalk is overwhelmingly male. But that may be something inherent with transportation-related interest groups. Very few women are to be found on nyc.transit, misc.transport.road or misc.transport.urban-transit, except maybe for some who use male-sounding handles to avoid harrassment.
Oh! I'm not asking for specifics. I'm not looking to get hooked up here! This is surely no place for it. Anyway, I'm married 3 and a half years, happily so. :-) It's just idle curiosity.
I'm afraid I do understand if women have to use masculine or gender-neutral handles. There are a lot of harrassers out there, sad to say.
Andrew
There is at least one (occasionally). She monitors more than she posts.
Can you imagine the advantages of going out with a female railfan (or railfemme)?
-You'd always have something fun to do on Friday/Saturday night.
-You can blame bad dates on GO's and service disruptions.
-Things like Redbirds, R "Slant" 40's or penumatic switches could get you both "in the mood".
-There are hundreds of exciting places to do "it" like in a Tower, in abandonned stations, on Redbirds, between "Slants" or on the Lexington Line at Rush Hour (although because everyone is so tightly packed it already counts as an orgy).
-You would get yelled at if you didn't sneak out of the house early in the morning to catch a new batch of R142's.
-You wouldn't have to worry about timing pick up's at NRHS and ERA meetings.
-Crazy railfan modifacations of the house would be welcomes.
Anybody want to add more?
All of the above ... I've been with mine for 26 years now. :)
Nancy doesn't post here but she does lurk ... and has spent many an hour in a loco cab with me as well as tours of subways cabs when we've gone to the city ... and yes, she even has some Conrail throttle time though she prefers the brakeman position since there's a bit more room on that side.
But aye, cap'n ... there be wimmens. :)
Where do you find them. Some far away island? Altoona? Did they use to be male railfans who got a little too close to leaking hasmat cars (or Heypaul's apartment) and experianced some nasty changes. Heypaul can you modify your time traveling motorman's cab to to go other dimentions. Maybe we could find one where all the railfans are female.
I found mine in New Paltz, NY when I owned the local radio station. She came to work there, found we had common interests and then some (she from Elmont, I from da Bronx) and the rest came naturally. In fact, it's Nancy who's really psyched on laying out those signals on the property if we can find them.
But as guidance, a good place to look would be the front of the lead car ... an especially strong hint is if they're trying to eyeball inside the cab. Heh.
Did they use to be male railfans ...
Watch out there, Meriden Mike, you might get
a surprise that ruins you for life.
Then again, you might like it!
-HHH
I guess my wife isn't a railfan. I've never even _heard_ of "the brakeman position."
(-- I think I'm blushing --)
Unless it is a double entendre, he is probably refering to the brakeman's seat in the cab. I always though that the seat opposite the engineer was the fireman's position and the brakeman sat somewhere behind them both. Anyway its either that or "Throttle time" and "brakeman position" are something I really DO NOT want pictures of. I would have that that a typical locomotive cab would be too small, uncomfortable and dirty for that kind of thing. Now older Cabbody units and modern wide nose units may be different.
SD-80MAC's are like the Presidential suite in a Hotel. VERY roomy. It's called the "whisper cab" and they ain't kidding. Modern locos have the cab mounted on separate airbags so unless you're watching out the window, you'd never know you were moving. I kid you not. I've often thought about moving in a couch and a console TV set. Plenty of room to do so. And the brakeman position is the window where you would normally drive a car, it's actually a wee bit forward of the motorman position, usually consisting of a table with a big red lever marked "Emergency brake" ... I'll see about scanning in a picture of the position later and putting it up.
Firemen sorta got done away with though there is always a third seat in the back of the cab behind the brakeman's position if anybody cares. Think of a subway car cab as a broom closet compared to a real locomotive cab which more approximates a living room. Bathroom is down the stairs to the left.
And yes, there is PLENTY of room to "do it" in ... heh.
If you want to install comfortable seating try one of those Bud(?) Light inflatable chairs. On a recent camping trip some guys brought an old canvas tent. It weighed like 80 pounds, but it could sleep like 12. One person was going to bring an inflatable sofa, but he got sick and could not attend the trip. You might consider an inflatable sofa for the SD-80's (IF they ever come back on lease from the Wisconsin Central)
I have gotten a few cab tours of older GP units and they have always sturk me as small and dirty. An F unit cab looks huge in comparason.
Regarding the seating, the engineer who writes Hot Times always refers to that side of the cab as the fireman's side. That second up front seat WAS reserved for the fireman before that position was generally eliminated. The Brakeman had to sit on the fold out rumble seat or hang out in the cab of a trailing unit. (In all the 60's accident reports I have read the brakeman was usually in a trailing cab.) Today even most brakeman have been eliminated and the conductor sits up front in the second chair.
I posted the Hot Times where Tutch gave a cab tour. I can send it to you and you can critique it if you want.
That may well be in all actuality ... and yes, been on F's and GP's and they are VERY cramped by comparison to the road Cadillacs though the 38's were nowhere near as bad as the older SD's. E-8's were thin on spare space. Then again, ain't nothing smaller than an IRT broom closet ... I judge everything based on those pitiful accomodations. The SW1200's always felt like TA ... I'll see about scanning in a couple of pix.
Pity the 80's have gone off the circuit - four of them used to call Selkirk home in the Gonerail days ... and just before the end, got to ride home in one of the new 90's ... of course they were on their way out to Elkhart, not intended for use here. I understand the 90's were bought solely for the ore car runs owing to their gigundo power and no need to add slugs ... at least they're where they're needed.
Did you ever get to run in one of those low nose 80's GE's with the freaky short hood and cab? Like a Ballast Express C32-8 or C30-8. How are their cabs? Its a shame to see NS and CSX letting all those classic Conrail units go. I'll miss all the SD-80's, C30-7's, C32-8's, B36's, and SD-50's. Hey, did you ever notice that the Conrail SD-50's always looked like they were right out of the paint shoppe.
What do you mean you'll miss the SD80s? Aren't they too new to be retired. I only like the older GE Units because they smoke alot and they have that chugging sound. I still prefer GP-30s and the first and second generation GPs and SDs.
CSX sent its SD 80's into exile on the Wisconsin Central RR.
The fools obviously don't know what to do with 185,000 pounds of tractive ... either that or their hicks have no idea of how to maintain AC motors. My guess is the latter. Those puppies could pull a whole ore train by THEMSELVES. Sheesh.
I've seen the C's but haven't been in them. 50's, yes and very very shiny indeed. When running north of Albany, you want stuff that ain't gonna die on you in the wintertime so a lot of the "fair weather" locos tend to stay south of here. It's mostly "Jeeps" around these parts with CP and D&H and even CSX ... they START. :)
As promised, here's those shots I was talking about here and in the "I want to buy a signal" thread ... should help to make some sense of it all - alas, no shot of the jumpseat in the back - my UTU brother didn't want to be photographed with a renegade pilot in the seat, not on the payroll. (grin)Brakeman's position on SD-80MAC aboveMe waiting on siding for the ball aboveCrossing at Voorheesville. Single track now cut on both sides - the left side with the F-40 on it is along my own property line and abandoned now.
View of two track mainline north of Selkirk from my driveway. This is why I think I need a better traffic light.
Wow, those SD-80's sure look plush. Do you prefer the old style control stands or the newer console controls. In Canada there was a big stink about how the engineers prefered the older models and either CN or CP desided to but all future locomotives, wide nose or not, with a control stand.
BTW are you saying that the D&H abanndonned its line into Albany? Why on earth would they do that? I have a very recent map that lists it as active. That looks like CP-VO. What became of the D&H connecting track and the diamonds? Did you make away with the D&H or the conrail home signals? Strange to see those cute little H-8 signals on former NYC trackage.
Yeah, like I said, almost a living room. (grin) The downside though is you don't "feel" the rails anymore and that's very important to many. Silly things like wheel slip and the like. You're supposed to know now by looking at your adhesion gauge. Not quite the same so I can understand how folks who go by feel are thrown for a BIE here. It's much like an oldtimer like me from the R1/9 days sitting in the cab of a 142 ... alien. Yes, I prefer the Jeep consoles, having controls where I can reach them with my head out the window. Handles are nice. Joysticks are weird. Makes a 5000 HP loco feel like a subway car.
D&H did indeed abandon a single track line but they have many other routes into Selkirk and Kenwood (downtown Albany) - this one was abandoned at the behest of CSX which does not appreciate crossings on their main line. CSX helped to restore a single track line about a mile north of this one that goes over a bridge, so all is not lost. Just a reroute. The existing trackage was in pathetic shape to begin with and a 3MPH restriction (which ain't good for DC motors) and the rails had begun to spread. Just west of the junction was a switch between the mainline and the cross and the rails there had let go entirely. Some poor schmuck took a GP38 across it about a year ago and it just laid down between the rails. Not a pretty sidewinder job. :)
Yes, this *is* CP-VO, signal box is just out of view on the left. All of the signals are still there and intact - the diamonds were taken out and the tracks tailed about 12 feet on either side of the railroad with crosses welded at the ends with deraillers. Both sides have been abandoned and CP is willing to sell the ROW that goes by my house. Oh fantasies of R9's living out their life on them.
But this line was just deactivated a couple of months ago (just before the snow) and replaced by an abandoned line DIRECTLY through Altamont (downtown village grade crossing) that was rehabbed for the purpose of replacing the grade level crossing. As you can imagine, the mainline made a lot of noise as it went over the crossing and MOW crews literally parked there "just in case."
Does that connecting track to the D&H line still exist? It runs between Selkirk Branch east and D&H line south. What are the signals not doing at CP VO? Acting as block signals? Is there a crossover? The jct. with the connecting track? Does the re-route basically start and end on the old route like a bypass of the diamond crossing?
The connector along the Hudson between Kenwood and Selkirk was completely redone and regraded a couple of years ago. Conrail sold the line to CPRail (D&H) ... the signals are still lit though disused because of cab signalling. I don't know what CSX's plans are but CP/D&H has been rehabilitating waysides on their own lines even with the cab signalling. The diamonds have been replaced with straight welded rail, no sign of them remains other than the track tails on either side that end 12 feet from the mainline and don't touch it anymore.
I don't know exactly where the reroutes were done - all I know is that it's north of here now. At best, the previously existing branch maybe saw one train a month at best - they're all short consists headed out to Duanesburg, mostly lumber and such. But yes, they've largely just bypassed that line with another one. There are a lot of old abandoned ROWs here and as best as I understand it, it does connect to the other terminii using a route that carries the single track over a bridge about a mile north of here. Haven't scoped it out yet ... one day they were out with rail cutters chopping it up and a week later, the diamonds had been replaced. That was how I found out.
So talked to some of my buddies and they told me that CSX didn't like the crossover and was willing to pay to make it go away. There's NEVER been a wreck there though other than that one GP38 that was unfortunate enough to have fallen between the rails when they let loose. Wouldn't call it a wreck though at 3MPH.
Why would there be cab signals on the former Albany Secondary between Selkirk and Kenwood? AFAIK there are only cab signals on the Boston Line. Also cab signals do not preclude the use of wayside block signals (ex. Pittsburg Line, NEC, Harrisburg Line, Springfield Line etc.) My question, is any of the former D&H line that ran between Delanson and Kenwood via Delmar, Voorheesville and Altamont still in use? I know the Voorheesville diamonds are gone, but does the connection to the Selkirk Branch still exist? If it did D&H trains could get access to Selkirk Yard and its new line to Albany.
Here refer to this map
OK ... you see that dotted line that crosses where it says CP-VO? THAT is the line they cut (the red "DH Conn" which is a simple turnout that goes about 50 feet is also gone) ... there are additional, formerly abandoned tracks and a bridge about a mile north (not shown on this map) that picks up most of that dotted line" but doesn't cross the mainline at grade ... so the line is still there, they've just eliminated the crossover at grade that used to exist as shown.
The map's a bit out of date. And if you look at that "Niagara Mohawk Power lead" by the Kenwood yars, you now know where NYC #100 is laid up along with some of the old Adirondack rolling stock of the D&H by the Mohawk Valley RR folks. But I live right at the "DH Conn" there and about two miles of the dotted line trackage right there is now abandoned and rerouted. Mine! Mine! Mine! Heh.
Made a couple of phone calls since the last post - here's the scoop. Waysides ARE still on the Kenwood/Selkirk spur BUT they are ignored. The rule is you hold at Kenwood until radioed a clear into Selkirk and it's approach all the way to a homeball at the limits. Northbound, same deal except that the homeball is just south of the Port of Albany into Kenwood.
When Mellon (Guilford) ran what is now CP (former D&H) they disconnected all wayside signalling between Kenwood and Mechanicville and did the movements solely by radio. CP put them back in and rewired the waysides though it's still done by radio ... mainline also has all of its waysides, but same deal there as well. What I refer to as the "mainline" *is* the Selkirk branch - two tracks. The "Chicago line" is used only by Amtrak between "Renssala" (their name) and Schenectady with an occasional local freight on it.
What the map DOESN'T show is that the dotted line going NORTH from the Kenwood yards *is* the CP main line to Mechanicville. The map shows only Conrail as though the other dotted line railroads do not exist. The New York Central "main line" is what goes through VO where I am as the "Selkirk branch" ... it's actually the original NYC main line and carries the bulk of north/south rail traffic. When Bombardier delivers cars, they come through here to Selkirk.
Now ... as to the diamonds, they WERE cut out and straight rail was welded in where they used to be but here's the kicker ... CSX dumped the pair of diamonds on MY property - they're under about 26 inches of snow right now so they're not visible. Come spring, maybe I'll put them up on eBay if they're not off my property by the time they become visible. (grin)
Hope this helps - the map shows a Conrail-centric view of the tracks around here. The "Chicago line" is the secondary, the "Selkirk line" is the main route now ...
Well its from the official Conrail split-up diagram. Red is what CSX got, green went to NS and there are some other colours as well. I use them to impress railroaders with my seemingly detailed knowledge of their operational area. Tell me, when was the last time out of state some railfan identified your property as being next to CP-VO. Man, I would love to live next to an interlocking and have the railroad dump shit on my yard. Hey, do you consider your property within interlocking limits? No stopping and proceeding for you! When you pull out of your car park what signal go you get? Slow clear? Medium clear?
Heh. Since the signal box is right up against the property line, I could turn both tracks on the mainline into disco lights. Yeah, duly impressed that you "know where I live" ... power to be used and not abused. (grin)
I'm actually a few hundred feet off the property - there's a coupld of other older buildings between the railroad and the hill I live on but my property abuts the Niagara Mohawk substation and that's where they dumped their diamonds. We're safely away from the actual tracks (I'm a fan and all but I don't want to be in the car salvage zone)
But when we move the old autorobot, it's green over green. There's a grade crossing up the street that crosses the mainline - actually there are five grade crossings in the village itself. What's amusing is that the D&H spur they cut actually went through the village and passes over a culvert bridge ... the ABANDONED line had no street grade crossings at all - the two streets that cross the abandoned D&H line had their own bridges and the streets went under the single track.
Most amusing of all is that the section of track I'm interested in (the OTHER side of the mainline) runs along the road all the way into Delmar and there's a clearing near Voorheesville and again at New Scotland that would be PERFECT for a ten car station with enough clearance and all that happy stuff. If only people actually LIVED here (population is 2300) it'd make a PERFECT commuter line if the tracks could be retamped and shined. Just not a practical thing to do though.
I could turn both tracks on the mainline into disco lights
That's going to need some explanation. Also what's the old auto-robot? Are there any signals in your area that still give the old NYC Double Green Clear? I read that NS just eliminated some of those in MI.
Hey, if VO interlocking is truely defunct ask someone if you can have the VO boards off of the Relay Hut (FYI a Signalbox is a British interlocking tower, if you want to avoid confusing tower fans use the term Hut or Shack like in "Rusty Hut"). Anyway you could put the VO boards on your house. Hey, what are the VO home signals on the Main Line up to. Are they dark or "automaticized".
I live down in Haddonfield, South Jersey near the eastern distant to SOUTH RACE on the NJT Atlantic City Line or, in the other direction, BLS EVE on the Conrail SAA Beesley's Point Secondary.
The "auto-robot" means car as in automobile - all I've seen here is approach and stop signals, haven't seen greens except at the home balls and well, they don't display a green aspect all that often.
Right now, the waysides are DARK. All four of them though the poles are still standing. But I think I'll want to leave things well enough alone, won't get in trouble that way. Got too many friends on the line to start cheesing them off. :)
I went back to this one in rereading the chain and noted your question on the cab signalling on the Boston line and wanted to tell you to follow the Boston line into Selkirk on the map you sent - you'll note that the "Boston line" becomes the "Selkirk branch" as it exits the yards on the north end. THIS is the main line I refer to, which is indeed cab signalled through, north of Selkirk. If you hop back a few to those pictures I sent, I was parked at VO southbound on a cab signal - the approach signal was dead though it's now lit this morning - sunshine yellow ...
On CR's 80's the cab signals are customized on the ICE display rather than on the AAR display. If you want to check out the specs on that particular baby, the CRTS still has a web site after the "shared assets" thingy but they've moved ...
http://www.crts.org/sd80mac.html
That'll give you tech details on my favorite limousine and pictures if you want them ... I enjoyed playing with subway cars while it lasted but there's something completely WWF about the mighty diesel. :)
One last thing on that map ... there's a *LOT* more trackage around these parts - they only showed what was actually scheduled. There ARE additional tracks about a mile north of the "DH" you see intersecting at VO ... they just weren't "lit" when the map was drawn. Move the line in a kind of hump about a mile north of VO and you have the new route. It too gets about one or two short consists with a Jeep pulling it (usually 32's or Montreal Locomotive Works relics in D&H paint) hauling 6-10 cars. I'm also told it connects to the "shown" "Northeast Industrial Park leads."
The Albany area came to concrete and asphalt later than other areas and thus, the only road you could really count on in those three seasons that WEREN'T "construction season" were the ones with steel pavement. Thus there's more rail around here than in Manhattan. :)
I never liked the Joysticks whether on R44 etc or on the modern diesels. Even worse is doing everything on a computer screen with the newest stuff. It was a lot easier to read gages than a screen, not to mention cutting air in and out thru the computer rather than using valves.
Since when weren't subway cars as real as any other train? Just like the Geeps, SD's etc that I ran [mostly..did run some of the computer ones]they had real handles, gages, etc. Just my humble opinion..I enjoyed the subway trains and diesels on the big roads both.
Meant to tell you about "High Iron," I just *love* those ... it's one of the things that makes me come here looking for it (having it emailed would ruin the anticipation) ... he's got a lovely way of describing reality. That's one of the things I like about Zman's posts even if he's cheesed off at the moment ... same for BigEd and several others here who have been around long enough to be able to give us the glory days reminiscences I have (of R1/9's, standards, Q cars on the Myrtle El and what goes back even further than I do) ... To me, LoV's and R1/9's were what I grew up with and the love affair never ended. But all there is around here is the mighty diesel, and it has its own unique lore. Best of both worlds!
I was in a SD-45 cab on several occasions that had a center console enabling the engineman to operate from either side of the cab.
That particular cab did not seem very roomy!
Cabs cab be ordered with almost any options you want. The PRSL bought all its diesels with dual control stands for bi-directional operation.
Still roomier than an R33. Heh. But not by much.
I did get my officemate (female) to walk with me completely underground from 11th and Filbert to Broad and Spruce and she seems to love trains and Old Philly etc. Maybe I'll keep working on her and eventually introduce this board to her. Unfortunately, she's engaged, although VERY good-looking.
Our Ntrak club has four female members at the present time, three of whom are also railfans (the fourth enjoys modeling but the trains are rather incidental). One of them - our club secretary, Nancy Morris - is one of the most rabid railfans I've ever met. Those of you who have ridden behind 614 on its Hoboken-Port Jervis excursions may remember seeing a topheavy gal with flowing red hair - that's Nancy, drooling over the big engine. Unfortunately, their condo association took a dim view of parking a locomotive on the front lawn, so they had to withdraw their bid at last summer's auction :-( (Her husband Dan is the club veep and a railfan himself.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've met a number of dates of young railfans (when I was a young railfan), but I don't know how many of them were really interested in the hobby.
The only dyed-in-the-wool female rainfan I personally knew was Elaine Rinke, the wife of New York Division ERA stalwart Herman Rinke. My wife and I tolerate (at worst) or appreciate (more often) each others' hobbies, which I think is what most couples do.
Yeah. My wife tolerates my subfanning, road-geeking, and comic books, but does not take any interest.
:-) Andrew
I dont Know I've introduced females to this hobby of Subway Railfanning, although at my age they become intrigued in teh whole graffiti/ subway thing. Its All good
***Too hot to crush too cold to hose*** Rubee Dee Fantastic 5ive
Um...I would prefer to be PC here and call it a 'mens' club'. If you are still in puberty perhaps 'boys' club' would suffice.
BMTman
Speaking of "SubTalk", whatever happened to Olga Merediz?
could someone tell me what this is
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:subtalk.nycsubway.org/
Exactly what it says at the top of the page. I remember that day, my photo excursion thread on there.
But how was it created?
I don't have a clue.
Google is a search engine. Typically you search for something, get some results, click the links and get taken to the respective web sites. But they also allow you to view the page (cached) as it was at the time they indexed it. That's what you're seeing there.
It's a "cached" page. The reason you can't access the messages is 'cause they've been archived. Many search engines do this.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hi all hows it going? I'm new to this site and also new to the NYCT. I use to work for the MTAHQ before taking the open Train Operator test. I know alot of workers don't like us right now and I understand, I just hope that we can all work together. I'm going to be assign to the A division. I'm going to be station at the 180th Street yard next week for 4 days. My training just started and I'm crossing my fingers for a long and lasting career with the NYCT. Bye All
Welcome to SubTalk, and best wishes in your new position.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Good luck, and for God's sake: DRIVE FAST! We need more T/Os who know how fast you can really go!
Welcome to the site. You'll find a lot to LEARN here too from old hands & wana bees, like me who has had some handle time on the big stuff at a local museum.
I suggest you use this site to see what the customers & fans think of the system and, with a little caution, ask some work questions that never came up in training or mngt. won't tell you. We will also LEARN from those questions.
Mr t__:^)
Hey thanks its good to see that their are some TA people who are willing to help us NEW T/O
Good Luck and welcome to the myriad world of being a T/O, Mustang!!!
Youre apply named; in the military a "mustang" is a person who first is an NCO and then later transitions to commissioned officer. But to have come from MTAHQ to the rank and file, you are sorta doing this in reverse. But good luck on receiving your handles and God bless,"T/O"!!! P.S. Despite all the controversy, I think the overwhelming Subtalk is actually in favor of open competitive T/O hiring and lateral transfers, so fear not!!! :> Regards, Thomas
While passing through DeKalb Ave. this morning, I noticed an R-68 N pulling in across the platform - nothing unusual about that. What did strike me as odd, however, was _which_ R-68s made up the consist - it appeared that half of the cars were from CI and half from the Concourse! I believe I may have seen this train on the B previously, but I am not certain. Anyone know what's going on? Is this a common occurance, or is this particular train an oddity, possibly resulting from 4 CI R-68s being OOS due to the B train derailment a few months ago? I did not catch all the car numbers, but I did note that one of the "CI" cars was 2895, and one of the "Concourse" cars was 2785 - based on these numbers, our resident experts should be able to ID all cars in this train. Any info is appreciated.
Thanks,
subfan
Don't hold me to this, but I think the CI fleet of R-68's starts with car 2778 or thereabouts. I checked the log I keep on all my intervals, and I see a few high numbered 2700's among my operating positions the last couple of months. For those unaware, I work the N line as a conductor.
Interesting - the reason I assumed that 2785 was from the Concourse, though, wasn't just because of its number; it also had red-painted doorsills, which I remember from some of Train Dude's postings was done only on Concourse cars, not those based out of CI. Could these cars have been transfered?
subfan
There are some R68As that have the red plates under the doors and they are based out of Coney Island Yard.
Aren't all the R68As shopped out of Coney? I know some MU sets are stored at Concourse.
Aren't all the R68As shopped out of Coney? I know some MU sets are stored at Concourse.
Yeah. All 200 of them are based out of Coney Island Shop. They run on the B Line whcih runs to The Bronx which is how some of them get stored at Concourse Shop between rush hours.
Joe Korman's site hasn't had an updated B Division assignment sheet since October 1999. Where can i find out a RECENT assignment roster?
Thanks!
I doubt the car assignments would change dramatically over a year. They're probably still current.
Yes but I know Pitkin and ENY have been doing swaps with 207 and Coney. Just curious.
BTW, I'd love to know how many MU sets of "M" signed R42s and R40Ms are stored in Lutheran, ENY and Coney.
Can you tell me the difference between the R68 and R68A? I confess that I haven't a clue, even though they both run on my favorite line.
Interior
--------
R68As have a square roll sign box and are leveled with the walls. The R68 have curved ones and they pop out from the wall. The font on the R68As are bigger than the ones on the R68. The R68s have hinged doors and the R68A have a sliding door. The advertisment/map panels have a thin border on the R68As and thick ones on the R68. The joints in the handbars are welded on the R68As and on the R68 they are put together with a "T". The bars are made of stainless steel on the R68 in which you can't see yourself reflect on them. On the R68As you can. The ends doors holds on the R68A and R68 are different. I don't know how to explain.
Exterior
--------
The R68s have rain gutters that run along the whole length along the roof. The R68As only cover the doors and the cab window. The window borders on the R68 are rubber and on the R68As they are steel. The windows on the R68 are more rounder.
Finally, you can tell by the unit numbers and their brake systems.
Due to the transfer of 20 cars to Coney Island from the Concourse a while back, the Coney Island R-68 fleet begins with 2776. Coney Island has just 20 cars with red threshhold plates.
Why would the R68As have them painted red too? They're based out of Coney Island Yard.
I have yet to see any R-68As with red threshhold plates.
Thanks, Dude - that answers it.
subfan
I understand there's some signal rehab in process for the 2/5 el and was wondering if it might be possible at some future point to put in bids for a home ball and automatic (the old 1904 IRT's would be an asbsolute delight but I'd settle for what I could actually get). Since there's folks here who know procedures, what would be involved trying to get one's mitts on wreckout signals?
I know about the rules for "you bought it, you come get it" and all but I've never seen signals offered for bid on the MTA site and was wondering if it was a situation of "there's a pile over there - help yourself" or if there was a more formalized procedure?
I'd rather not revert to the old home turf method of Bronx removals, climbing the el in the middle of the night and just pulling them off their pedestals. (grin)
I have an old BMT signal wired to work with wall outlets, just a red yellow and green, not a homeball. It is from the original BMT 4th ave line.
-Harry
and.............how'd ya get it?
I bought it from a fellow railfan. In order to obtain one from NYCT you should try to ask a friend in the signalling department.
-Harry
www.zdeno.com
Those were pretty in their own right ... what I have in mind though would really want it to be in more "original" shape since I'm hoping to put them (yes, more than one) outdoors on a long grade up the hill to my house (a run of about a half mile) which just so happens to have a recently abandoned rail line next to it. (this is the old Kenwood D&H Yard to Esperance line via Altamont, NY which was JUST severed by CSX - it used to cross the mainline at 30 degrees and they wanted it gone because it crossed the two tracks of the mainline)
So since I have tracks, and my driveway is right next to them, thought it would be a hoot to put them out next to the track and light 'em up. I live in Voorheesville, NY which is an old railroad town and the locals kinda like the idea too. A few of us have been talking about buying the old track and putting it to some use, so there's the scenario. Best of all, the power substation abuts the property so dropping in a rectifier box is also a practical option.
So I figure, start with a pair of signals and who knows? Maybe we can take a couple of redbirds though I'd much rather a pair of R4's. :)
And yes, they'd approve third rail operation here. Bliss.
Hmm... sounds like the start of a transit museum :)
Heh. Actually, I'd like to see the Kingston museum do better rather than taking away from their attempts to rehab what they already have - no offense to Branford in ANY way - Kingston is far enough away from me, Branford is an insane distance from here ... but yeah, if I ever got rich, I wouldn't mind having my own little fiefdom. But for now, I'd settle for a homeball just to impress the neighbors.
Voorheesville has a very interesting history (just celebrated its centennial two years ago) of being a major railroad hub AND it was a town that voted NOT to "go dry" during prohibition. The town was a place where you could get likker (heh) and wimmens and folks flocked here from all around. Since it's located conveniently close to the Selkirk yards on the main line, a lot of railroaders live here and those who AREN'T with the railroads are train nuts anyway. You'd have to be - as they said in "Blues Brothers" the trains go by so often you won't notice them here.
Are you kidding? Those things weigh hundreds of pounds. Getting hold of one would be a real feat, although it has been done, if you would go to Valhalla Station on the MNCRR Harlem division, where a restaurant just outside the station has one, along with some boxcars and a caboose on an old NYCRR siding.
[I'd rather not revert to the old home turf method of Bronx removals, climbing the el in the middle of the night and just pulling them off their pedestals. (grin)]
Say, I could send a posse over to the Sea Beach Line in the middle of the night and see if we could 'procure' a few signals. I understand that the MTA is planning on abandoning the line and turning it over to the city for use as a solid-waste transfer station (aka dumpsite).
;-)
BMTman
Hahahaha ... one of my bro's was telling me that they're not much harder to get out of the cement than a parking meter. But somehow I suspect that bells would be going off in command as soon as the first wire got cut.
The N line becomes landfill? Oh there's a few people here that are going to be mighty unhappy to hear that - about as happy as women are with Shrub on his first day in office ...
[The N line becomes landfill? Oh there's a few people here that are going to be mighty unhappy to hear that - about as happy as women are with Shrub on his first day in office ...]
I was just busting some ballz with the remark about the Sea Beach Line...:-)
After all us Brighton Line buffs have to keep up the famed rivalry!
BMTman
"Say, I could send a posse over to the Sea Beach Line in the middle of the night and see if we could 'procure' a few signals. I understand that the MTA is planning on abandoning the line and turning it over to the city for use as a solid-waste transfer station (aka dumpsite)."
Expect a fuming Sea Beach Fred to answer that !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
What does the sign "begin info zone" mean on the LIRR? I see them around Woodside.
What does the sign "begin info zone" mean on the LIRR? I see them around Woodside.
The engineers are supposed to listen to their radios for pre-recorded messages about delays and such.
BOMBARDIER AWARDED CONTRACT FOR NEW SUBWAY
CARS: The Board of Directors of the Metropolitan Transportation
Authority/New York City Transit today announced its decision to award
Bombardier Transportation an order for the production and supply of 350
R142 rapid transit cars to complete the replacement of its aging "Redbird"
fleet. The award is subject to funding approval by the Federal Transit
Administration. The order, valued at US $ 418.9 million, is made up of
two elements. The first represents the conversion of an existing option for
200 cars included in a contract awarded on July 11, 1997 for the design,
manufacture and delivery of 680 cars. The second element represents an
order for 150 additional cars to meet increasing ridership requirements
identified by the Authority. The delivery of these cars will follow the
schedule for the base order and will take place in 2002 and 2003. This
additional contract brings the firm order to 1,030 cars for a total value of
US $ 1.3 billion. With the completion of this order, Bombardier
Transportation will have provided, since 1982, a total of 1,855 cars for
the New York subway, which represents about one third of its 6,000 cars
fleet. The R142 cars are customized to MTA/NYCT specifications to
provide the highest degree of reliable and safe service. Five-car sets are
arranged into base operating units, each consisting of one motorized car at
each end and three half-motorized cars. The 10 prototype cars completed
extensive testing in New York last September and R142 trains are in
revenue service since October 2000. The R142 stainless-steel carbodies
are being manufactured at Bombardier's La Pocatiere, Quebec, plant with
further manufacturing and assembly taking place at its Plattsburgh and
Auburn, New York, plants. (Steve Benkovitz - posted 1/24)
Oh, wonderful. Kawasaki gets a measley 150 car contract, and the the R142A's sidekicks get the main order...ugh!!! Bombardier did a good job, but Kawasaki did build a better car IMHO. -Nick
Kawasaki is getting the entire R143 order. Don't feel too sorry for them.
Shawn.
"Kawasaki is getting the entire R143 order. Don't feel too sorry for them"
Checking past Kawasaki orders reveal they tend to lean towards small car orders, or it appears that way.
Bill "Newkirk"
they get the measly 150 order because they can't hold a big order. the 142A is glamourous in decor but bad body rigidity.
It's interesting how the city will react when 60% of the entire IRT fleet will have to be retired en masse 40+ years from now. These cars should've been bought in 1990, a handful per year, so as to not have this future problem.
I somehow doubt if the R142 will last for 40 years.
I think they will, if they are as well maintained as the R62/68's.
The Amtrak "investigators" have rules that that 6 foot by 4 foot boulder that mysteriously appeared on the tracks and damaged a passing Shore Line East commuter train was the result of winter weather acting on the cut. But acting on their gut instincts Heypaul and BMT Man have disobeyed orders and stayed on the case. The true cause of the accident and the exact involvment of the Demonds remains to be seen. Isn't that right AVID READER!!!
You are truly an astute student. If you check with one of My earlest post on this topic, I had suggested freezing and thawing.
But NOOOOOooooooo, the Duo had to take a field trip. And they uncovered a new set of forces at work.
avid
They have been saying since the incident happened that freezing and thawing was the most likely culprit.
Peace,
ANDEE
No Andee, I SAW Heypayl with his bike the other day. He had huge tow rope hooked up to it. Right size to pull a 6x4 foot rock onto the rails if you ask me.
I recently acquired some interesting old pictures of the LIRR. Those two of East NY that I posted yesterday were part of them. Here's a picture of Jamaica taken in 1878. Note the church in the backround - those of you who ride the LIRR will recognize it since it's still standing today! That shows how much further west the current station is.
Those ghost-like figures scattered among the men ... I presume they were an artifact of old-fashioned photography?
BTW, I wonder what sort of show "The Shay-Le" was.
Those ghost-like figures scattered among the men ... I presume they were an artifact of old-fashioned photography?
The old film was much slower - required more exposure time. In order to get the greatest depth of focus, a comparatively small opening is required. Consequently, images that were not stationary did not appear, due to lack of exposure. This was not a problem for landscapes. People in motion just were not recorded. So, many 19th century street scenes that appear empty were not. But the buildings were captured.
That's a GREAT picture, Bob.
Isn't that church just a shell now? I would hope it's landmarked, notwithstanding.
No, this is the church on the north side of the tracks just west of the old Union Hall St. station.
Which brings up a trivia. What two things do Union Hall Street on the LIRR and Dean Street on the Franklin Shuttle have in common?
I give up!
All I know about Union Hall St. is that it was built when the present Jamaica Station was built to satify the locals' demands that a station be located near the site of the old Jamaica Station. But what's that got to do with Dean St.?
Bingo!
Dean Street was built to serve the former location of Bedford Terminal, though a short distance from Fulton/Franklin.
Both stations were really unneeded.
Or to put it a little more coherently, Union Hall and Dean Street were minor stations built at the location of former major stations (Jamaica, Bedford) for no better reason than the former major station used to be there.
They had relatively minor ridership and were eventually abandoned.
"No, this is the church on the north side of the tracks just west of the old Union Hall St. station."
You're not talking about St.Monicas', the church whose roof caved in and the facade remains standing, facing east? The church in the picture seems to have the entrance facing north or south.
BTW-A recent TV interview revealed that former Governor Mario Cuomo was an alter boy at St.Monicas' in his youth.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bob. Thanks for another great shot!
BTW, isn't that the church w/the steeple that's being held together by bungie cords or something?
BMTman
"BTW, isn't that the church w/the steeple that's being held together by bungie cords or something? "
BMTman
That was St.Monicas' whose roof caved in a couple of years ago.
Bill "Newkirk"
...hmmm....looks like heypaul could be lurking in the back by the 'Smith' sign. Not sure, but as we all know HE does get around...
;-)
BMTman
Now THIS is a picture of a real street scene!
If possible, would you happen to know the location of this place?
I'm assuming it's near Atlantic Ave in Jamaica...
Thank you.
Just east of Parsons Boulevard.
Find Union Hall Street on the map.
The Lone Ranger and Tonto are camping in the desert, set up their tent,
and are sleeping. Some hours later, The Lone Ranger wakes his faithful
friend. "Tonto, look up at the sky and tell me what you see."
Tonto replies, "Me see millions of stars."
"What does that tell you?" asks The Lone Ranger.
Tonto ponders for a minute...
"Astronomically speaking, it tells me that there are millions of
galaxies and potentially billions of planets.
Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo. Time wise, it
appears to be approximately a quarter past three.
Theologically, it's evident the Lord is all powerful and we are small
and insignificant.
Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow.
What it tell you, Kemo Sabe?"
The Lone Ranger is silent for a moment, then speaks.
"Tonto, you Dumb Ass, someone has stolen our tent."
Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk - very funny
karl... that was a very subtle joke... thanks...
reminds of another lone ranger & tonto story... it seems that they were chasing some desperados out in the northwest... they followed the gang's trail into a large city that had a subway system ( just to keep this on topic )... they took the # 5 express to the end of the line... when they got off the train, the station was surrounded by thousands of indians, all in warpaint, shooting flaming arrows at the platform... the lone ranger turns to tonto and says:
"well tonto,my faithful indian companion... things look pretty bad... i guess we've come to the end of the road"
tonto looks at the lone ranger and says:
WHAT'S THIS WE CRAP, WHITE MAN?
Say, I think I've heard that one before...;-)
Did you hear the NYW&B version as well?
Good One, but what is this #5 business. I had heard about that, but was told that the incident took place in the northeast on the old NYW&B!
So now that the G will be stopped at Court Square, what was all that improvement north of Queens Plaza station for? Why have track D5 if it will not get used? The G wassuposed to be relayed there - now that plan is up in smoke. What gives?
Because they could only use that on nights and weekends (when there is less traffic from 53rd St), but if they do that, they fear people will complain why can't it run there weekdays. This is what an official explained to me.
Yet one more silly decision by an agency with a special talent for that kind of thing.
OK, so nights and weekends will see G service to Queens Plaza. Cutting the line back to Court Square is not very smart, in fact it is nuts, but I am not a chief, just an indian.
Track D5 still has the old signal system and is not scheduled for modernization with the rest of the QBL signal system until this summer when the project is hopefully completed. Hope that answers your question.
This morning on my way to school, totally unexpected. C/R says "Train late, F Express, Parsons next" and all the other people headed for my school leave. I stay on to Parsons (we stayed on the local track, yet 179 was next) but...
After school the cops tell us to walk to Union TPK to get the train. Along the way I see track workers using the emergency exits. At Union TPK I find that there's a water condition and everything's going express from Parsons to Union TPK. I ride all the way to Parsons, express to Union TPK, but an E switched in front so it went slow. So I did it again. Got 45 MPH out of her at Van Wyck Blvd. At Parsons I noticed the interlocking was fleeted(correct term?) to express. The third time, the problem was fixed and I was on the first train to run through local(at a hearty 7 MPH). What's interesting was that during the disruption nobody but the southbound F T/Os were announcing (no station announcements or anything), and people were waiting at Sutphin southbound and had to figure it out themselves (I smiled and waved as I passed both times). Van Wyck Blvd southbound was barren, probably had the turnstiles taped off.
The track route was strange. The F was on D3 at 179; D1 at 169 and Parsons; D3 at Sutphin, Van Wyck, and Union TPK; back to D1 for 75 ave; back to D3 for 71/Continental. It switched between express and local a total of 4 times. And both switches to D1 were for one stop each. Gave those switches a hearty workout.
I was on a Queens-bound F train at around 1:30pm, when I saw trains going very slow around Union Tpke, and track workers on the westbound local. All the Manhattan bound F's I saw were running on the express track, all the way back to 179st. There large crowds on the city bound Sutphin and 169st platforms. Apparently they haven't gotten the message about the problem, and continued to wait, instead of taking a Queens-bound train one stop to an express platform.
Well that explains the mess I saw today on Queens Blvd. So it was a big water leak. Probably thanks to all the snow melting.
You mean to tell me they were express all the way from 179 at 1:30?! I was there at 2:30 and it was only from Parsons! Now I really wish it had been an odd numbered day on my schedule, I'd have been out of school at 1:15.
That's my guess, since there were alot of bewildered looking people waiting at 169th, more than I've ever seen at that station. Perhaps a train or two was running late and sent express from 179th.
That was probably the first time that switch from D3 to D1 just past Union Turnpike had seen any use in a long time, I'll bet.
I can only think of one off the top of my head. Forest Hills. are there any others?
That's the only one coming to my mind too. -Nick
Is there a Broadway station in New York there is one in Boston?
There are two stations known only as Broadway, on the N (Queens) and G (Brooklyn, different Broadway).
Then there are those where Broadway is in the name
74th Street-Broadway on the 7 (Queens)
Broadway Junction on the L (Brooklyn)
Broadway-Nassau on the A and C (Manhattan)
Broadway-East New York also on the A and C (Brooklyn)
Broadway-Lafayette on the B, D, F and Q (Manhattan)
Each borough has a Broadway. The Broadway in Manhattan and the Bronx is the same Broadway.
Staten Island has a Broadway?
Yup; it runs fom Richmond Terrace in West New Brighton down to Clove Rd.
There is a Broadway in each of the 5 boroughs.
Peace,
ANDEE
Both New York and Melbourne Australia have a Brighton Beach Station, and both are 1 block to the beach.
We had a thread on this very same topic some time ago. After doing much digging in the SubTalk archives, I finally found my posting that started it.
Boston and New York share Forest Hills and several Broadways. New York has a Cleveland Street and a Columbus Circle. Boston has Cleveland Circle.
Chicago and Boston share Wellington, Chinatown (in Chicago it's Cermak/Chinatown, to be fair), Davis, Washington, and Central. The T also has a station at State; CTA has the State Street Subway. Boston has a train that goes from Oak Grove to Forest Hills. Chicago has a train that goes to Forest Park via Oak Park.
Chicago and Atlanta both have stops on North Avenue. (In Chicago, it's actually North/Clybourn. But North Avenue on the CTA is south of South Boulevard.)
Atlanta and Boston both have Airport stations, not surprisingly. (In Chicago both the airport stations are named after the specific airports they serve, O'Hare and Midway.)
Not counting stations named after numbered streets, Chicago and New York share Wilson, Montrose, Grand, Main Street, Clinton, Central, Harlem, and Clark. (In Chicago it's Clark/Division. But the CTA also stops at Central Park.) New York has Grand Central, Grand Concourse, Grand Army Plaza, Grand Street and Grand Avenue; Chicago has just plain Grand (two of them, actually).
New York has four Canal Street stations, three Chambers, two Cortlants, three Church Avenues, two Newkirk Avenues, three Kings Highways, three Fort Hamilton Parkways and more Broadways than I care to count.
Chicago has three Ciceros, three Pulaskis, three Addisons, three Halsteds, four Kedzies and a whopping five Western Avenue stations. Not to mention two each of Harlem, Oak Park, Austin, Washington, Monroe, Jackson, Division, Garfield, Grand, and Irving Park.
I've probably missed a few, and I'm sure there's more duplicates in other cities that I'm not as familiar with. I wonder which station name appears in the most cities? Chicago, New York and Boston each have at least one station named Central.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The T also has a station at State; CTA has the State Street Subway
The 4 and 5 run beneath the entire length of State Street in Manhattan.
[...Chinatown....]
While there's no station in New York called Chinatown, the Canal Street station on the Broadway Line has signage in Chinese.
Philly has a Chinatown station
I have a question about the Ridge Avenue spur. There is an abandoned station between Chinatown and Fairmount. The scarcity of a square centimeter devoid of graffiti on its tile walls speaks of many years of disuse. The name of the station remains hidden under the spraypaint of the ages. What was the name of this station? How long has it been abandoned? Just curious.
Mark Michalovic
The abandoned station is Spring Garden. It closed in 1991 due to low ridership and the discontinuance of late night and Sunday service. There had been talk about re-opening the station once the new Phillies stadium opened at 12 & Spring Garden Sts, but now that the staduims are being built in South Philly, that's a moot point.
Chicago also has three stations with the not-so-helpful name of "Chicago."
Chicago also has three stations with the not-so-helpful name of "Chicago."
It's not as bad as it sounds -- they're all along Chicago Ave.
In general, where Chicago has multiple stations with the same name, they're along the same street. Western Ave. is the longest street in Chicago, which accounts for five stations along it, three of which are on the Blue Line! (If you ride either branch of the Blue Line from end to end, you'll stop at Western twice. On the Forest Park branch, you'll stop twice at Harlem, and on the 54/Cermak branch, you'll stop twice at California).
Do any lines in New York (or any other city outside of Chicago) stop at two stations with not only the same name, but on the same street?
-- Ed Sachs
Van Wyck Blvd-Briarwood and Jamaica-Van Wyck on the E immediately come to mind, even though the stops are actually located at Queens Blvd & Main St and Jamaica Ave & Kew Gardens Rd, respectively. Van Wyck Blvd was replaced by the Van Wyck Expressway decades ago.
After planning my fictional RIPTA subway system, I had two Pontiac Avenue stops on the Garden City branch, one at Reservoir Avenue and one at Sockanosset Crossroad, but since it doesn't exist, I guess it doesn't count :).
Van Wyck Blvd-Briarwood and Jamaica-Van Wyck on the E immediately come to mind, even though the stops are actually located at Queens Blvd & Main St and Jamaica Ave & Kew Gardens Rd, respectively. Van Wyck Blvd was replaced by the Van Wyck Expressway decades ago.
Both of them have the line travelling beneath the southbound service road of the expressway. The E stops at Briarwood nights and during some GOs only. Jamaica-Van Wyck was opened in 1988, therefore it was already named for the expressway. Briarwood opened in 1937 before the expressway in 1948.
The E stops at Van Wyck Blvd and 75 Ave weekdays either from 7:45 PM-7:30 AM or 7:30 PM-7:45 AM, I forget which, and all times on weekends. Of course Van Wyck Blvd still existed when its station opened, but the name is anachronistic now, and it was dumb to name a stop after an expressway when there are, for obvious reasons, no stairways to the expressway. As I said before, I think the stations should be redesignated Main St and Jamaica Ave, respectively, or at least rename the Van Wyck service road Van Wyck Blvd. It works with the Bruckner, and there's even modern signage at Van Wyck Blvd pointing to the "Van Wyck Blvd" (expressway service road) stair.
Queensbound, it's 7:30AM-7:45PM.
Manhattan Bound, it's 6:30AM-6:15PM.
The signage is wrong.
That's when it runs express.
Philly has three lines stopping at "City Hall". All are at Market St., but one line (PATCO) is actually in Camden City, although it's City Hall is also along Market St.
The surface part of North Station in Boston was call canal street
There is no Canal Street. It was probably CAUSEWAY Street.
Yes there is a cannal street the station was lacated where the constrution for the supperstation is going on now.
They both used to have stations named Adams.
Fordham Rd on the Green Line Boston College branch, and Washington Square on the Cleveland Circle branch.
Boston Orange Line and LIRR both have Stony Brook Stations.
here is a link to some old phots of south station
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/detr:@field(SUBJ+@band(South+Station++Boston,+Mass.++))
Story on yesterdays LIRR DERAILMENT and its effect on PM rush.
Peace,
ANDEE
Cracked Rail, can't do anything about that!
More frequent inspection? How often do rails crack? How often are the cracks found the hard way?
FRA requires inspection (Visual) of the rails and more intensive look with equipment (like Inspection Cars). I don't know how often but it is required.
Neither do I. Maybe the FRA minimum requirement is too low.
Last night,
At 16:57, while entering The Rockaway Blvd. station on a R/44 consist
heading to Far Rock I spotted R/32 3353-3354, they were on the south bound END of a consist of R/38s heading north. I could quite tell if it was running out of Lefferts or Far Rock. I didn't get any of the number plates of the R/38s.
avid
Caught that puppy this A.M. Its the tail or head end of an Far Rock "A" . It was the last local to head to the city from Far Rock , before "C" service starts.Also in the consist was r/38 4023-4022 and 4149-4148 I missed the rest of the #s .
avid
Soon to be ex-gov Christie stated “that the current proposal is completely unacceptable." State Senator DiFrancesco, the next gov, agrees. Story in Thursday’s Times.
Unfortunitly with Whittman's departure I doubt DiFrancesco alone can stop the PA in its fleecing of New Jersey. Our only hope is if Whittman uses her EPA position to force the PA down a more equitable path (punn intended) by using environmental policy to prevent the PA from even sractching its own ass.
(Unfortunitly with Whittman's departure I doubt DiFrancesco alone can stop the PA in its fleecing of New Jersey.)
On the contrary, I suggest that New Jersey will continue to fleece New York. The only reason these increases are being considered is that NYC threatens to take back the airports. Without the profits from NYC airports, NJ will have to pay for itself.
The PA is hoping that by creating a new situation which temporarily seems fair in the short run, the City will renew the leases for the airports. Once that's done, the PA can go back to having airport profits pay to keep transit fares and tolls lower for NJ than for NY.
BTW, most of the proposed PA capital plan is also for NJ. By getting greedy, NJ may be doing NYC a favor.
I don't know what you are griping about. Once this goes through New Yorkers are going to be paying a 50 cent/ride higher PATH fare than people from NJ.
Exactly, why can't we all just pay a buck? HLBR and the NCS are both a buck.
HBLR is $1.50.
Because $1 is insufficient. 'Perfect' would be distance-based fares, but that won't happen in NYC. But the fares should be more in line with the actual system operation costs, so all the fares except for those on the NYC subway should rise.
-Hank
(The fares should be more in line with the actual system operation costs, so all the fares except for those on the NYC subway should rise.)
It seems to me the NYCT fares need to rise also, to keep up with the cost of labor. I'd rather that than have the MTA borrow $22 billion without building anything new. The riders, state and City are shorting the MTA. And on the commuter rails, there is overstaffing to boot.
They would have to institute fare control zones to cut the staffing. I don't know whether WMATA still charges by the mile on Metrorail, but it seemed to work well in 1976 (last time I rode it). You just fed your card to the turnstile both entering and exiting, and the hardware deducted the appropriate amount when you exited and gave you your card back.
(They would have to institute fare control zones to cut the staffing. I don't know whether WMATA still charges by the mile on Metrorail, but it seemed to work well in 1976 (last time I rode it). You
just fed your card to the turnstile both entering and exiting, and the hardware deducted the appropriate amount when you exited and gave you your card back.)
I'd say implement fare control at stations other than GCT and Penn. The system would assume you were going to City Zone 1, unless you exit swiped as well. You might have to leave a little float on the card if you weren't traveling to GCT or Penn, but that's about all.
In addition to congestion issues at the city terminal, the argument against fare control is the lack of access control in at-grade stations. But if other systems can rely on "good faith" with punative penalties, the LIRR could send a gang of checkers onto random trains and make sure people swipe. Most LIRR and MN riders have stable enough addresses and incomes to make big-time fines collectable, and thus a deterrant. Add on video cameras, and you have a way to cut the overstaff.
But if you got rid of most of the conductors, who would ride in the locked off, empty cars?
Article in Inkie; new transportation center expected to open Summer 2003. Bus terminal to close Monday for demolition start. El and bus service to continue; trackless trolleys not mentioned.
I hope they leave stub ends for the eventual possibility of extending the line up Bustleton to meet the Boulevard Line.
I was wondering about that myself. I was also wondering if the terminal would still be as big a transit hub if the new subways to northeast Philly ever do get built. I'd hate to see all this renovation be for naught someday, but I suppose that's all years away.
Mark Michalovic
As currently planned, the El goes straight from the new platform to the yard (with a 3-track layout on the 'S' curve north of the platform, to allow storage and crossovers north of the station). This will not easily accommodate an extension northward.
Also, during some phases of the new terminal construction, 66 will have to be bussed. According to the current plan, it's the only route that will remain as is, still entering the terminal. Its 'building' is historic and will remain in the new layout, although it will be rehabbed.
Monday should be very interesting, traffic-wise, as the new bus patterns start and thousands of pedestrians are unleashed into the busy streets surrounding the terminal. And the best is yet to come, when the El goes out for a two-week period to allow the cut-in of the new segment off Frankford Ave. This is supposed to happen in July of next year. Buses will ferry riders between the terminal and Erie-Torresdale. Right now, SEPTA does NOT plan to extend any of the buses which terminate at Frankford to E-T for the duration, since there is no room for them on the street at this location.
They have to do it that way? They couldn't single track to Arrott Terminal, at least on weekends?
No, and you do indeed have to wonder why. As I see it, the cut-in of the new structure can happen over a weekend or two. The old station doesn't need to be demolished to accommodate the new one (that was the beauty of the new alignemnt across the terminal area). It seems that the new structure could be built right up to its junction point with the old and the tracks shifted over on a long weekend shutdown (Fri 8 PM to Mon 6 AM). If you look to the west, the entire Market St el is proposed to be rebuilt that exact way.
It's the (unfortunately) usual lack of foresight on the part of SEPTA, the same thought process that was used during Railworks - make things easiest for the contractor (who you are paying) and hardest on your customers (who you will scare away with the shutdowns, and who may never return). There's no way that the 'bus bridge' idea will not be a couple of weeks of hell. At least I know where my articulated bus will be during that period...
I have to wonder why little thought to future extension was built into the plan. Were the designers even told that a future expansion was a possibility? Is it just me or do SEPTA's projects often seem to lack a broader vision? It seems that each new one is conceived in a vacuum with no notion of a transit system. One gets the feeling that people aren't talking to each other in the planning department. I can't prove it, it's just a feeling I get sometimes.
Mark Michalovic
It's not you. Keep in mind that the City, not SEPTA, is pushing the Northeast Metro idea, so SEPTA has shown how much it supports the El extension proposal. (Admittedly, it is fairly weak in ridership projections, and probably would never qualify for funding.) It appears that SEPTA has taken the mystery out of the question as to where the eastern end of the El will be.
On a different note, Metro has published the new bus loading and unloading locations at Frankford twice this week (yesterday and Wednesday). Still, Monday should be very interesting.
History has shown that when the transit company or TA does not push for rapid transit expansion, the city will build it when it has the money. PRT (SEPTA's grandfather) built the Market Street Subway and Elevated and Delaware Avenue Elevated, and was going to stop at that. The city thought that there needs to be more, so it came up with the funding to build The Frankford Elevated extension and The Broad Street Subway and Ridge Avenue Spur. You're right that SEPTA has shown lack of interest in extending The Frankford El, but if the city does come up with money, I guarantee that it will be built.
Unfortunately, the city's priorities seem to be on building 2 new stadiums (not adjacent to a subway line), and tax breaks for new hotels, so I don't see where that will help a NE line.
In 2001, in Philadelphia, for a project in the Northeast, do you think the money's there?
Actually, ridership estimates were very high for the proposed alternatives, which would run a branch from the Broad Street Subway from Erie underneath Roosevelt Boulveard almost to the city limit, which would include an extension of the Market-Frankford Line north by one station, to meet the new line at Roosevelt and Bustleton. The estimates, in the range of 70,000 riders per day, were among the highest among all the current projects competing for federal dollars nationwide. If a alternative is ever selected, the chances of getting ferderal money looked good.
Take a ride on the MFL, and you'll see that almost no one gets off before the end of the line at Frnakford, and that most of them connect on buses to points further north. The riders are definitely there.
Mark Michalovic
"If a alternative is ever selected, the chances of getting ferderal money looked good."
That is, if SEPTA didn't focus so much on the SVM. It'll use up all our transit dollars for the next 50 years.
As much as I hate to see one transit project pitted against another, I'm glad you mentioned that. It seems that all I ever hear from SEPTA, the press, even from DVARP is Schuylkill Valley Metro...Schuylkill Valley Metro...Schuylkill Valley Metro...Schuylkill Valley Metro while almost nothing is said in any official channel about the Roosevelt Boulevard project. What gives here? Is it a suburbs-over-city kind of thing? I'm puzzled. I know SVM is important because of congestion on I-76, but does this mean northeast Philly has to be forgotten?
Mark Michalovic
I would definetely like to applaud DVARP for its efforts on killing SEPTA's light rail idea back in April. As for what they are doing now, I am not sure if I completely agree with it. Frankly, it seems that good service (and by good service I mean 15 minute headways) going half the way to Reading with big parking lots would be better than bad service (30 minutes) going all the way. I don't know how SEPTA can getting away with building a fancy line to somewhere that they expect people to move to.
Yet even so, I was disheartened by the talk of some DVARP members about Roosevelt Boulevard. While some members said that they wouldn't mind having the boulevard line truncated at Pennypack, yet nobody ever even thought of truncating the SVM at Pottstown. And besides, all those 930 riders projected from Reading are perfectly capable of driving to Pottstown and catching the train there, since they probably all have cars. Also, some DVARP members worried that a Boulevard subway because it may take away riders from Regional Rail. Frankly, I think that would be wonderful, considering how bad the R8 is. If a Newtown dream is more important to you than a Northeast study, well I can't agree.
Newtown is a political football, unfortunately. While it's a line that begs to be built, given all the development in that area and the potential ridership, Montgomery County doesn't want it and Bucks is so-so about it. Look at the so-called 'bus replacement' of the line - both routes (301 and 302) are poor performers and a tariff is in the works to extend bus route 24 to eliminate 301.
R8 Fox Chase would be a casualty of the Boulevard subway, most likely, but it is an anachronism these days (it has the lowest ridership next to R6 Cynwyd and is virtually deserted on weekends). The Boulevard subway provides a much higher level of service, although a transfer to a crosstown bus would be required for most R8 riders.
While it is a good group, it's ideas like those you mentioned that have kept me out of DVARP. For a rail support group, it takes some very strange stances.
Almost all of the ridership projections are attributed to the Blvd line. The El extension itself doesn't add so much to the mix - its numbers are related to folks transferring from the Blvd route to continue to Frankford/Kensington destinations. These riders would have to transfer again at some point, most likely, unless their destinations are close to El stops.
The study's view of this is that the ridership generated by the one stop extension of the El can easily be handled by a bus route. It probably is close to the mark. The Blvd route itself will take a lot of ridership away from the El (those riders you noted who are riding to Frankford today) since the feeder bus routes to Frankford Terminal will likely be terminated at the nearest Blvd route stop. The SEPTA Northeast bus network would change from a radial network focusing on Frankford network to a crosstown network interfacing with the Blvd line.
One alternative, which is now gone, had the El going to Roosevelt Mall, which might make some sense. Unfortunately there is no room at the mall to provide terminal facilities.
It is probably not a good idea to offer a train-bus-train transfer - there is a tendency to overestimate the usefulness of the bus, and underestimate the usefulness of the train.
If SEPTA is to spend a significant amount of money on new rail, it is cost effective to spend a little more to get two rail lines to connect. Not doing so is penny-wise and pound-foolish, and someone else will have to get it done 10 years down the road at twice the price (remember the 63rd St Connector in NY?) Why? Because you avoid train-bus-train, which discourages riders a lot more than you might think 2) Because a new connecting terminal will offer much better ADA access to the handicapped and elderly than a bus (even lift-equipped) would.
I agree with you Ron. Transfering from train to bus and then train again, for the relatively short stretch between the Bustleton/Roosevelt and Frankford terminal would be a really annoying hassle. Also, I really like the idea of switching from a radial bus system to one with more crosstown routes in the event of a Boulevard subway. Poor crosstown service in the northeast is the achilles heel of an otherwise good bus system.
Mark
Where is Roosevelt Mall? Do you mean Franklin Mills Mall?
Roosevelt Mall is a strip mall at Cottman and the Boulevard.
Mark
The 66 trackless trolley is supposed to board from the same location. How they are going to pull that off is going to be interesting.
Last night I boarded the 8:10 LIRR train at Flatbush Ave, going towards Far Rock. I took my usual position at the front railfan window, as I always enjoy watching the train pass over the Atlantic Avenue elevated track and the high-speed run between ENY and Jamaica.
But as soon as I got there, the motorman told me to get away from the door. I did so, and noticed that he then kept the door to the motorman's cab open with his left foot.
Was this proper? Is there some kind of LIRR rule prohibiting passengers from looking out of the railfan window? I always thought that the motorman had to keep the cab door closed during operation of the train....
Last night I boarded the 8:10 LIRR train at Flatbush Ave, going towards Far Rock. I took my usual position at the front railfan window, as I always enjoy watching the train pass over the Atlantic Avenue elevated track and the high-speed run between ENY and Jamaica.
But as soon as I got there, the motorman told me to get away from the door. I did so, and noticed that he then kept the door to the motorman's cab open with his left foot.
Was this proper? Is there some kind of LIRR rule prohibiting passengers from looking out of the railfan window? I always thought that the motorman had to keep the cab door closed during operation of the train
There is no rule prohibiting passengers from lookign out the railfan window, while there IS a rule requiring engineers to keep their doors shut. I'd say he was being a schmuck.
Yup, he just wanted breathing space for his coffin. By RULE LIRR has to keep the door shut when operating.
Mitch45: Why don't you write a letter to the LIRR, giving the train number, if you know it, and date and time of departure, and tell the LIRR about your experience. I'm certain the LIRR would like to know about this guy's behavior, and since he seems to not care a wit about rules or customer service, it's likely he's got other black marks in his personel file. When this schmuck gets fired for cause, your letter might help seal the deal.
(Okay, I know I'm dreaming a bit here, but maybe, just maybe, if riders make enough noise, things could get better. Also, I know the ability for a passenger to stand at the front window is not crucial to the safe and timely operation of the LIRR, but this behvior does reflect upon the attitude of this particular railroad employee towards those who help pay his salary.)
And for all you motormen on the board, and those of you who are wary of "getting guys in trouble": With all due respect, think about how this guy reflects on you all before you start to defend him. You don't need him among your ranks. He makes you look bad. Maybe if more of you were railfans...:o)
Keystone Pete
Just Your Average MTA Customer
Thank God I've never run into that on my trips into New York. It would probably lead to a confrontation with me and the motorman. But all I've run into have been open and friendly, and willing to talk of my reasons for coming to New York, and about life in California. Of course, introducing myself as Sea Beach Fred can't hurt since it identifies me as a subway nut.
Me too. Last fall, I had a great chat with a Metro North engineer on the Hudson Line all the way from GCT to Tarrytown. I think the LIRR guy in the original posting in this thread is probably the exception, not the rule. And speaking of rules, I'm aware that the MNRR guy was breaking the rules by having the door open in my case, but one could argue that his chatting with me was a customer service enhancement which would offset any safety violation by a mile. Of course, this would only hold water if LIRR was interested in customer service. I think the jury is still out on that...
His chatting could have been another violation, like talking to a bus operator. I wouldn't complain, though...
I was speaing to a MNRR engineer about open doors and standing at the railfan window. He said that some engineers want the door open and the area clear so that they can bail out quickly if some idiots decide to throw something off an overpass.
I got the same thing from another engineer, who related a story about stiking lumber that was purposely placed on the tracks.
-Hank
An Engineer on Amtrak's Vermonter, as a responce to all the grade crossing collissions on the Springfield Line, would prop the end door on the Metroliner Control Cab so he could bail out. A non-railfan railfan I was talking to enjoyed this because it gave him a better view and a chanch to chit chat with the Engineer.
What better proof of the risks of grade crossings.
I get the same queasey feeling when ever the "A" train is about to enter or exit the tunnel at Grant Ave. near the Brooklyn/Queens boarder. Especially with snow and ice so plentyful.
avid
Same here, Had good experience at the railfan window not only in NYC, but watching over the curtain on BART, and taking pictures in Melbourne and Sydney last year
Having a UTU card to flash also helps. Gotten me many a cab ride. After all if I can't see the rails ahead, I explain, it'll be cleanup in aisle 6. :)
My IATSE card does not help me figure out the previous joke....(but its gotten me into plenty of projection rooms)
Could you elaborate?
UTU=United Transportation Union
And "cleanup in aisle 6" means if I can't see out the fan window, I'm gonna get trainsick ... And that IA card is even handier when you've got a camera with ya. (grin) WNYT13 up here is an IA house ...
Got a cab ride on the Singapore MRT a few years ago .... thanks to a purposefully worn "NYC Transit Authority" tee-shirt.
--Mark
Real good! Now we should go after an engineers job for having a cab door opened? God forbid he derails the train. What will you want then? Life imprisonment? Railfans just have to lighten up a little. If Mitch takes the train from Flatbush some time later on, he'll see the same tracks,signals and switches he would've saw if the engineer didn't have the door open.
It appears this motorman was being a penishead, and abusing what ever authority he has over the passengers riding his train. for this obvious act of open rudeness toward the general riding public, and a railoadiana fan at that, he should really be (at the very least) written up and reprimanded. After, all don't most C/Rs and T/O "begin" their railroad careers usually as railfans looking out the front window?!
If I may offer, the fan window is not a right, but a privilege. Your "ticket" only entitles you to sit with the other geese. Just TRY to get up to the cockpit of the next jet you fly and see what happens. The T/O is the captain of the ship (yeah, I know the C/R is the "safety officer" and all, been there did that) and if the captain of the ship doesn't want the door blocked, it's their call. Sorry about this but there's reasons for it.
I'd be willing to bet the guy you encountered had a few incidents of "throwers" (a VERY serious problem for the guy up front in case you didn't know) and likely recently had a very close call on a run. When you're at the helm and are involved in an "incident" it can really screw up your mind ... cut the guy some slack and remember that if you can get to the window, happy day ... but it isn't YOURS. There is no birthright to it. Enjoy it when and while you can. If you were to press the issue, you'd find more walled off front windows ...
FAA rules bann anyone but airline or FAA personel from the flight deck. Fly a NON-United States Flagged Carrier and while outside the United States ask nicely and you will be able to visit the flight deck. Inside US borders, you are SOL.
Just wait and see what happens when some wiseass steps into a TO's cab and demands that the Q 16:35 go to Cuba ... you'll see. :)
The helmet law should be extended from he Razor scooter to the Engineer.
We have it for Motorcycles,bikes,skates, skateboards, razor scooters, friskie lovers and NOW it should be extended to
E N G I N E E R S.
avid
They don't need helmets. That's what the Part 223 Glazing is for. Plus they already have to wear safety goggles and some RR's might require hard hats.
>The helmet law should be extended from he Razor scooter to the
> Engineer. We have it for Motorcycles,bikes,skates, skateboards,
>razor scooters, friskie lovers and NOW it should be extended to
>E N G I N E E R S.
Why should we have any helmet laws if someone wants to kill themself it's not my problem.
It's much easier to clean up the mess if the skull remains intact.
Why should we have any helmet laws if someone wants to kill themself it's not my problem.
Unfortunately, it usually becomes your problem. Although the average age of motorcycle riders is over 40 (surprised? check out the prices at your local Harley dealer - and the rice burners aren't much different), the average age of a biker involved in a disabling or fatal accident is around 30. Factors include speed, alcohol, and inexperience - often a combination of all three. As a society, we end up bearing the cost of these accidents - the years of disability payments, the Social Security payments to the widow and young children, etc. Unhelmeted bikers are more than ten times as likely to die and more than six times as likely to become permanently disabled in an accident as a helmeted rider.
I parked my last bike twenty-five years ago, and I always wore a helmet. I don't recall whether or not the law required it then - I don't think it did, or if it did it wasn't enforced very strictly - but I preferred to be a survivor. Fortunately, I was never in an accident on either of my bikes (I rode Triumphs with the &-@_(^*) Lucas ignition system).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If they don't have a helmet on cut any money they will get
But, more often than not, they're not the ones who will be getting the money - it's their survivors. More often than not, if the kids and the widow didn't get Social Security benefits then they'd end up on welfare, and besides, you don't want to penalize the children for their father's attempt at winning the Darwin award, do you?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No but anyone who has kids should have life insurance anyway. To not have life inherence is neglectful.
Life insurance doesn't provide enough to raise a child. A simple lesson in economics, from a parent's point of view: children aren't cheap. You have to feed them, clothe them, provide for their education and a lot of other things. It's a struggle, even when both parents work. Now imagine having only one parent - probably the one with the smaller income - having to pick up the load all by themselves. 50K of life insurance (a typical amount for people under 35) won't go far - deduct 15K for burial expenses (moddle-class funerals typically run between 10K and 25K), deduct another 15K of legal fees associated with the estate (there's probably not enough estate to deal with estate taxes), and you're down to 20K - enough for Mom to pay off the car so she doesn't have a car payment for the next four or five years. That's it. I have significantly more insurance than that and my oldest is grown and married with children of her own, but with one in law school, one taking another break from college, and one in high school it still wouldn't provide very well for them and my wife (who doesn't - and couldn't - work). Last year I spent as much in tuition, room, board, and books for my two students as I earned BEFORE taxes... like I said, children aren't cheap.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The way my father put it to me was to always have enough to pay off the house. Nothing else is apparently as important.
-Hank
The way my father put it to me was to always have enough to pay off the house. Nothing else is apparently as important.
Back in the days when your father and I were growing up, and perhaps even when we purchased our first house, that was basically true. But what else did your father owe money on? Perhaps a car - making payments of $100 per month for two years on a car for which he paid about $3000 and put 25% down. And his mortgage payments were less than that, although the mortgage went for 15 years. Putting things in perspective, of course, his salary was a lot less then than someone just starting out now too. His other monthly expenses were the electric bill, the heating bill, and the phone bill - maybe water and sewer depending on where you lived - and of course clothing and groceries. But today's average young person likes to live a bit higher on the hog, so to speak, so they have a sports car or an SUV - not some basic family sedan - with payments that can run up to seven years long, their mortgage runs for 30 years, they owe MasterCard and Visa $15K or more, they have cell phones, internet connections, and cable or satellite TV (or both), and they eat out a lot, rather than just on special occasions. So the need for insurance is significantly higher, but they usually have much less, if any at all. And your father was probably able to save quite a bit of money as well "for a rainy day" (I was too, until my rainy day arrived and I was out of work for almost a year and a half) because he wasn't as materialistic as many of your generation are. (My older daughter and her husband make little more than half of what I do between them, but they drive an SUV that cost more than anything I've ever owned, have a fancier house, wall-sized TV, entertain regularly, eat out constantly, buy designer clothes for their two boys (Alex is almost 4 and Drew is almost 16 months) and wonder why they never have any money. Hello? Earth calling Amanda and Larry, come in please...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(My older daughter and her husband make little more than half of what I do between them, but they drive an SUV that cost more than anything I've ever owned, have a fancier house, wall-sized TV, entertain regularly, eat out constantly, buy designer clothes for their two boys (Alex is almost 4 and Drew is almost 16 months) and wonder why they never have any money. Hello?)
Sounds like a peer group problem. You should have them move to Brooklyn. Everyone I know is cheap.
Then again, perhaps that's because half of their income goes for rent/mortgage payments, and they can't buy anything because there is nowhere to put it.
But the father's organs could go to save 5 other fathers each with their own kids.
Potentially - although, given the usual state of a body after a motorcycle crash, quite unlikely. Badly bruised organs can heal when they are in the living being they have always been part of, but they're not transplant candidates.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
*rant mode on*
You know, I never get all the "organ donar" crap surrounding bikes. yeah, they're dangerous. So's jumping out of planes, sking, tieing rubberbands to your legs and jumping off bridges, and a zillion other things people do. What's the big rub about bikes that virtually *every* person I talk to who finds out i have a bike *has* to go into some gory story or another. Come on - like people don't get killed any other way? Heck, I bet more people get killled in bathtubs than on bikes each year. Let's ban bathtubs? Mandatory helmets in bathtubs? "Safety" bathubs with airbags and all?
For that matter everyone bitches about loud bikes, then has the gardens show up at 7am on a Saturday with the leaf blowers and all.
*rant mode off*
Ob. Transit content: Anyone know an easy way to get to Hempstead from the Glen Head/ Glen Cove area by bus? i might have to do this to pick up my bike in a week or two...
Phil, the N27 goes from Glen Cove & Glen Head to Hempstead Terminal. However since you are a railfan you can take the Oyster Bay branch to Mineola and then get the N40/N41 to Hempstead. That would even get you closer to Rolling Thunder or Hempstead thieves Harley as the N40/41 goes south on Main Street to Front Street.
Phil, I'm trying to find the household info, but I can't find it on the web. However, from the NHTSA, in 1999, there were 2472 motorcycle accidents that resulted in death, and 50,000 injuries.
-Hank
And, in NY state, if you have a bike, you don't have ANY insurance for medical injuries. So the issue is moot. Heck, I wear a helmet (I don't get the whole anti-helmet moaning myself, especially when there's bigger issues to tackle), but i'll say this - I'd rather end up dead than paralyised. No questions about it. I don't give a crap what the cripple rights people or the doctors say - if I'm going to be alive, I want all my limbs to work.
As far as burden to society, what about all the people mained and crushed by SUVs?
[Unhelmeted bikers are more than ten times as likely to die and more than six times as likely to become permanently disabled in an accident as a helmeted rider.]
Can you cite a source for these statistics??? I seriously doubt them!!! Although I can't cite a source I am willing to bet the death rates are pretty much even between helmeted and non-helmeted bikers. I am biased though as I am definitely against helmet laws (and seatbelt laws for that matter) even though as a cop I still enforce 'em.
I am biased against all these laws that tell you what you have to do in your own space. Sometimes a seat belt saves lives, maybe most times and I've finally started using mine.
Sometimes it may cost you your life. What I fear is they'll get in your own home and tell you you can't smoke there. It already happens with some rentals.
Then there's the helmets. I"ve been riding a bicycle 44 years, had enough wrecks when I was young and still here to laugh about the fooloish things I did. [I started at 14..the years you only think of move, and fast] I might agree for small children. But then the CONTROL thing comes in, like the city of Billings, MT planning a fine of $500 for parent[s] who let their kids ride without one. Gimme a break. You can't watch them all the time, and that is higher than some pretty serious traffic violations.
I wish the powers that be were so worried about serious crime, but they can't control those people as well as they can control the honest citizen. We can't get free legal help for these small things like the criminals do for serious things.
Having personal experience with the wonders of the modern seatbelt, I am most definately for seatbelt laws. My father finally started wearing one last year, after my brother was pried from a Saturn intact and alive. Other than some nice bruises and my Mother's insistance on a CAT scan, he walked away.
And then he did it again with my father's van. Guy had an apparant heart attack while leaving his driveway, and slammed into him, pushing the front end both in and to the left. He got out on his own and was walking around, but the volunteer ambulance squad that responded to the scene tied him down anyway (he was screaming at the guy who hit him, road-rage style)
I went through a windsheild when I was 13. That was enough for me. a 5-mph crash. My head still has the lump. I ran a red light in Savannah, Georgia in 1997. If not for the seatbelt, I would have hit the steering wheel. I think that might have hurt. And no one was hurt in the car I hit, either.
Given a choice of paying a doctor or an undertaker when it comes to a family member in an accident, which would you choose?
-Hank
Excellent points.. and as I've said I have started wearing mine. By the way when I visited England a few years ago I was told by my friends that the fine there was 50 pounds, then about $85. Makes Montana's $20 fine look cheap.
Listening to the news here in the DC Northern Va area, the committe in the Leguslator in Va, called of all things Police and Militia Committee, posponed a law stating that police can not stop a person and issue a citation just for not wearing a seat belt. Also they want to repeal thje manditory motorcycle helmet law. Pardon my spelling
Postponed a law, or proposed a law?
-Hank
Posponed the law about seat belts, and proposed about the helmuts(or repeal on both)
Jeff, good to see you back... I was beginning to think someone had scared you away from the board!
I'm not sure of the original source - my wife was talking to her brother at the time I wrote that post and so I butted in and asked him (he's an avid Harley rider and a retired Detroit motorcycle cop) and he quoted me those numbers from something he had on hand. Next time we talk I'll try and find out. He was critically injured back in '71 when a woman ran a red light at 60 mph in her Cadillac while he was going through, on the green, with his light and siren on, answering a backup call. His helmet saved his life, although the impact of the helmet with his collarbone (when he hit the pavement head first) broke it in two places. He also shattered one arm and one hip, but thanks to lots of good physical therapy (and meeting a nice nurse named Judy who he married in the fall of '72 - 28 plus years and still smiling) he has made an excellent recovery and has been driving a truck since the force retired him in '74.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>Why should we have any helmet laws...<<<
To keep the lawgivers relatives that own helmet companies in business!!
Peace,
ANDEE
What if this railfan window is in the public area of the car, as it is on the LIRR M-1s and all subway cars from the R-42 down? This public area does not interfere in any way with the safe operation of the train. If it did, it wouldn't be a public area.
--Mark
Some people just call it 'A job' and don't give a damn that it's a train. And I don't blame them. No one said you had to be a railfan to run a subway train, just like you don't have to like guns to be a cop. Again, the job of transportation systems is to get people from point A to point B as effeciently as possible, not to entertain the fatasies of railfans.
-Hank
Railfans don't have "fantasies" about RR's...its a hobby and an interest to us.
Speak for yourself!
Then you are in the realist minority.
-Hank
Why didn't you just sit down and watch the engineer do his thing or even try to start a conversation. On my one MNRR trip on the New Haven Line the Engineer had to door open. After watching him for about a minute no sooner had the words "So, what do you think about Hurricane Floyd" left my mouth then he closed the door never to re-open it. I had the RFW for almost the whole journey. Anyway if he blocks the RFW w/ an open just watch him do his thing. After about 5 minutes he'll be so freaked out that he'll close the door. If that dosen't work start talking at him, don't wait for a reply, just keep the words comming. If he tells you to shut up start whistling or drumming your fingers. At the very worst he'll come out and punch you, but then you can sue the LIRR for free monthly passes.
How to be obnoxious and give railfans a bad name 101
Does anybody have a copy of the rule, or better yet, a scan of the page from the rulebook?
I don't know MNRR or LIRR but TA rulebook
RULE 53 "Destination and Route Signs; Heaters; Fans; Air-Conditioning; Doors and Windows; Riding In Cabs
(d) CAB DOORS
Train Operators must keen the cab doors closed unless the cab is too hot or too cold, in which case they may kept slightly open, not more than four (4) inches, by use of an authorized "cab door latch" affixed in the vicinity of the cab door lock.
I guess on the LIRR a left shoe is the authorized door latch!!!!
Yes, there are SOME real mean folks out there !!most LIRR motormen/engineers etc. liked me shooting videos on thier trains
I even met one who wanted me to shoot illegal when passengers are not to ride the front car !!
Take the next train if you have the time !!
The Metro North folks almost always have
their door open.. blocking our view.
I'm surprised you were actually able
to GET TO IT while unblocked!
LIRR trains are not run by motormen, but rather by fully certified Locomotive Engineers. He might have been a jerk towards you, but that's no reason to call him nasty names. You have to be the adult in this situation.
Acoording to what he said the guy did act like a jerk and violated rules besides. IMO, Regardless of whether or not they are LEs they are and always will be OVERPAID Motormen in my book. The equipment they operate, for the most part, is almost identical.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well Engineers have to be Federally certified which is a big untertaking. I know they only operate MU's, but as long as they operate on an FRA rail road they have to be FRA certified. The higher degree of training and prefessionalism can make up a little bit of the differance.
And on the LIRR, you may get stuck in a broom closet but the same cert can get you a mighty diesel as well. On LIRR, you are expected to be able to operate *ANY* equipment though I understand there is a "subclass" that's restricted to electric only.
Yes, driving MU's is much different from running loco hauled trains and a universe away from freight. However, the one common thing that all LE's need is the ability to follow the rules and not get into situations where they have to "wing" it. LE's are much more on their own than motermen. A locomotive is much less fool proof. They need to know what they are doing at all times and how to overcome many different types of problems.
Engineers are not overpaid, but some of the biggest JERKS I've ever encountered happen to work or have worked as engineers. However, some of the nicest people also are engineers.
I don't find them to be any different from airline pilots or long distance truckers - folks who in their work lives can be flattened in a nanosecond if they screw up and are scrutinized under a microscope constantly. Have you ever been in a cab where bricks hit from above or bullets fly from the side? It's not the safest job in the world and all the crap you have to take from above does tend to make you sour of mood.
When I worked for the TA, there were only a few real arseholes there and they were huge ones. But 99% of the crews were hapless schlumps who just wanted to get through the day and get home. The ratios are about the same out on the "real" railroads too. It's a rough job. Really.
Have you ever been in a cab where bricks hit from above or bullets fly from the side?
What about that Part 223 glazing? Dosen't that help?
Ah, 49 CFR Part 223 Only assures that the glazing material can stop a .22 long rifle bullet, one of the least powerful cartridges out there and the sheer mass of a brick or suspended cinder block would utterly destroy the window, pushing it out of the frame back into the cab.
I don't see how ... I see 223 as requiring easily removable windows to allow injured geese to be removed from a wreck. Am I reading it wrong? I don't see anything that requires the glass not to break when hit by a pipe, cinder block or bullet. 223 is primarily concerned with extricating people from a passenger train wreck and being able to identify the victims, as well as making it easier to get doors open on the Amtrak cars in particular which are notorious for holding passengers hostage unless powered.
If you're running a train, a brick through the window or a collision is something that makes you want to get out of the cab as QUICKLY as possible since cabs tend to get flattened ... my guess is that this particular motorman had a recent bad experience and was a bit itchy.
The rules require certified glazing. "Certified glazing means a glazing material that has been certified by the manufacturer as having met the testing requirements set forth in Appendix A of this part and that has been installed in such a manner that it will perform its intended function."
So look in Appendix A.
That's relatively new ... but yeah, finally found it, of course NOT at fra.dot.gov.us but no surprise there. I also found more data on the testing techniques though that wasn't terribly reassuring:
Sometimes it DOES take a rocket scientist: Scientists at NASA built a gun specifically to launch dead chickens at the windshields of airliners, military jets, and the space shuttle, all traveling at maximum velocity. The idea was to simulate the frequent incidents of collisions with airborne fowl to test the strength of the windshields. British engineers heard about the gun and were eager to test it on the windshields of their new high-speed trains. Arrangements were made, and a gun was sent to the British engineers.
When the gun was fired, the engineers stood shocked as the chicken hurtled out of the barrel, crashed into the shatterproof shield, smashed it to smithereens, blasted through the control console, snapped the engineer's backrest in two, and embedded itself in the back wall of the cabin, like an arrow shot from a bow. The horrified Brits sent NASA the disastrous results of the experiment, along with the designs of the windshield, and begged the U.S. scientists for suggestions.
NASA responded with a one-line memo: "Thaw the chicken."
The Chicken Canon is also a popular "weapon" used on a comedy show to throw assorted $h!t at pictures of politicians etc...
Heh. That puppy's gonna be MIGHTY busy the next four years. :)
Please don't post Fwd: Jokes here. We've all heard the chicken story. Anyway I bone up on all my FRA rules and regulations at http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_99/49cfrv4_99.html Unfortunitly the appendicies were not included.
This from a guy who posted phony news stories?
-Hank
Hey, I stopped that almost 6 months ago. And they were funny!
I recall you being forced to stop because you came off so much like 'crash.
-Hank
What a jerk.
I've never taken the LIRR but here in DC, a green line operator made me go from the window because he claimed I was leaning over another passenger (which I was not). I have reason to believe this guy was racist because while he asked me to sit down, a black biker got on the train and off without any comment by the operator and the passenger who I was alledgedly leaning over was black. As you may guess, the TO was black too and I am white.
do like i do go back & take the next train !!!!
And if you don't have the time to do that? I would have when a T/O made me do that but I didn't have the time so I told some tourists on board how stupid the T/O was and how such a thing never happened to me and how I was a railfan and so on and so forth.
i do not disagree with you maybe i should have included if you have the time to do this as well ( go back & catch the next train etc..)
sorry this happened to you there are some nasty folks out there !
I can't recall ever being told to stay away from the front door. I have had a few good chats over the years but most engineers I came across kept to themselves. On the LIRR I could see the speedometer easily when the door was open. As for Metro North, every time I would ride the New Haven line eastbound the front cars would be closed. I would then go the rear car and look out the back (not as fun). As for NJ transit, most of the time the engineers would put up the metal shield to prevent people from looking through the glass. Sounds like they were trying to discourage railfans such as ourselves. But a few times the engineer and conductors would let me stand by the cab door if it was open. In my opinion most of the engineers I came across seem to be indifferent as far as railfanning goes. For them it's just another job.
LIRR electrics rarely have the cab door closed, it's usually always open. But there are always the side windows, and you do get to see the controls and speedometer in the cab. The engineers are friendly, just not "railfan friendly", ie they don't want to talk about trains, it's just a job to them.
And around Jamaica and Penn station the engineer keeps hitting the agnowledge button.
What's more annoying than having no front window view? Closed cars. I hate that. Because the C/R's are laxy I have to sit in a crowded car. And they love to close half the train on the OB line, and that train is crowded by the time we get to Jamaica.
Why do I have to sit in a packed car when the next one is closed and empty? I think all cars should be open at all times, and LIRR C/R's should eat their Wheaties!
LIRR engineers have a habit of being "railfan-unfriendly" and keep the door open. It is supposed to be against the rules, but after all this is the LIRR we're talking about.
Yesterday, I was on the IRT #7 train, and I saw mainline R-36s in the Corona Yard from the #6 line. What is going on? Are the R-142s bumping the mainline R-36s to the #7 line?
Also, I was on the IRT #5 line and saw R-33s from the #2 line. Is this another case of the R-142s, bumping the R-33s from the #2 line to the #5 line? Are the R-26s and R-28s beginning to retire? If so, when will they be off the tracks?
OK. I know a mainline redbird from a Worlds Fair redbird by the windows. In fact, I fode on a mainline redbird car today on the 7.
But how do you tell an R26 from an R28 froman R33 from an R36?
Thank you.
:-) Andrew
The numbers :). I thought the presence of drop-sash windows might be a clue, but in the photos on this site, some R-26s have them while others don't. Was there any determining factor in which cars received new windows?
Interior differences:
R-26/28/29 - All have fully tan colored ceiling, door frame painted red, and PA speakers in the middle of the A/C blowers. No center light track. No noticeable differences outside the cab.
R-33 ML - Fully white ceiling, door frame painted red, useless emergency light or nothing in middle of A/C blowers. No center light track.
R-33 WF - Double-ended, no A/C units, white and tan ceiling, blower fans, door frame painted tan, doors make odd sound when they lock, center light track and blinking lights except 9336. These still have the storm door latch to keep it open when it's hot.
R-36 (ANY) - White and tan ceiling, active emergency light in middle of A/C blowers, blinking lights, doors make odd sound when they lock.
Then there was the R29 that the original question missed. No biggie.Pity the 4 visits I made to NYC I never noticed differences in GOH interiors.Shame on me. Comes with age I guess.
Other than the World's Fair cars the only difference I can remember when those cars were new were that the R26/28 had the Pullman green exteriors where the later were red.Soon you couldn't tell the difference..pre car wash days. Likewise the 26/28 had the mostly grey interiors. The major difference was that they had couplers between cars of a married pair, the R29 and up had solid drawbars. But you couldn't notice that normally.
Any other spotting differences as built? .
You could almost say the R-26s and R-28s "converted to Catholicism" during GOH, as they lost their couplers on the blind ends and received drawbars.:-)
The Transit Museum calls married pairs cars "Protestant" if they have couplers and "Catholic" if they hacve drawbars.
The bench seat colors were the most obvious interior difference -- the R-26/28 had the same salmon pink seats as their sister R-27/30 cars on the BMT, while the R-29s and up had the gray bench seats.
Car numbers. Check the car roster page for exact numbers.
Some noticable differences:
R26/28/29 cars have standard tan colored interior ceilings, with PA speakers located in the center of each circular AC vent.
R33/R36 mainlines have white ceilings with incandescent light fixtures located in the AC vents.
R36 WF cars have circular side windows, like the R32-42 class cars. All other redbirds have the traditional square segement windows.
R33 singles, found only on the #7, have no AC, and retain their original fans.
I know that I've been at Flatbush several times, and seen an R-33 pull in signed up as a 2 and pull out as a 5, so I don't think that is too unusual - they make sure that they all go to bed at night in the correct yards, but at the terminals, they do swap equipment if necessary.
subfan
Or it could just be a 2 which is then re-routed to
the 5 line for the evening rush... not necessarily
swapping equipment... just scratching it's forehead
till the right number shows..
My guess is that a few freed up R33's from the 2 line which has extra cars with 40 R142's now running on it were x-ferred to the 5. I'm not sure any redbirds have been officially retired yet.
Lard: The Other Boiler Fuel
Bruce Miller, associate director of the Energy Institute at Penn State, is working on using lard and choice white grease (non-edible lard) as a substitute for #4 and #6 fuel oil. When heated to 120 degrees F it remains liquid. It produces slightly less heat per liter than #6 and is more expensive, but pollutes less (than sulfur-containing petroleum products).
Ohio State did that back in the 70s. Well, sort of, anyway. They blended used cooking oil with diesel fuel and used it on their shuttlebus fleet. This blend was known in some quarters as "Buckfry".
Great for the environment , less for land fill , renewable, domistic,and a continious source.
Awhile back on Public TV, some dude in California was using Peanut oil in a VW deisel Rabbit. Another entrepreneur in Japan was doing a similar thing with recycled oil for the Japanese shops that fry every thing, I have Tampora. Is a little more envolved then just pouring it in the fuel tank. And its more expensive. But I was recently charged $1.799 for home heating oil. I can get Crisco cooking oil for about $2.00 a gal using Manufactures coupons at the supermarket.
Kinda makes the average Joe wonder!
avid
Wow, how well did they run? On a somewhat unrelated note, a friend's cousin was low on motor oil in his 1984 Dodge Caravan and put in Wesson corn oil instead; it ran for about 500' before the block split in two.
That's different. Cooking oil just doesn't cut it in a car's crankcase.
Thats the reason it worked better as a fuel. It has a lower flash point. Peanut oil has about the highest flash point, then i believe Canolea oil is very close. That is it can take a higher temperature before it starts to smokey then flash to flame.
This is an area that I'm not to sure about. but certain veg oils are more suitable for fuels then others, even if they have been used for cooking. Filtration and refining and blending make then attractive.
avid
I have been away for while so pardon me if it may seem like you may have heard this from someone else. you know i am all for extended the line we have and making it easier to get to and from work, but the W and V lines just seem more like the MTA going back the days wher trains that had similar letterin or no relevance to serve ran . I mean look at the W. Was it not in the early 1980's when the bridge was closed there was 2 b trains running 1 north of 6th and 34th and the broadway b that served coney island via west end and ditmars blvd. does the TA belive that we cant tell the diffrence betwwen broaday yellow and 6th ave orange?. i don't know. The v was a okay idea until it hits 53rd. i care what anyone says that belongs to the f and from reports they will run only 9 v train during the rush at 53 rd good luck with that. If it made any sense (which of course if you are dealing with the MTA, it won't) let the Q serve queens blvd period. there would certianly be a balance in the sence that people who need the express in 6th ave will take the q and people who use the f wilnot be left out in the cold. It seems very clear to myself as to others that this is the J/Z skip stop service all over again, where on that line it was used at first as way to speed up service and as analternative to jumpon an overcrowded E line. This case the TA want to make more use of the 21st queensbridge, roosevelt island, lexington and 57th st stops. If any thing extending the Q past 71st during the rush to 179 st to allow for F express service might help sincethey would serve 6 th ave unlike what happend to the R to 179. As for the G line riders- my goes off to you i wish you the best because i just have this feeling that line won't be as lucky as the franklin shuttle and that is a shame since it serve as direct link for red hook brooklyn and queens. that all i've got to say,peace
By the time the V service is in effect, the Q will be back on Broadway express, hopefully for good.
Of course, that's no reason it couldn't also serve the 63rd St line and Queens Blvd. In fact, I do think that may be better than the aparently redundant new letter, especially if it runs express straight through to 179th, or runs local to 179th so the F could run express.
However, I do see the point of running the F through 63rd. It cuts down on the length of track shared by the E and F, and thus can hopefully cut down on delays. I sort of think of it as the F escpaing the Queens Blvd line after 36th and moving to its own new line. It will probably move faster on 63rd than it does on 53rd, and free up capacity at 53rd.
:-) Andrew
You might make a better point if you could write a sentence that's easily understood. By the time the 63st line goes into full service, the Q will be a non-factor, running on the Broadway line to 57/7. The reason for the W replacing the southern section of the B is to reduce the confusion at 34st. Different colors with no other differentiation isn't enough for those of us who are color blind.
As to the 'reports' about there only being nine V trains...It's been dramatically demonstrated here that one should not believe all they read from unofficial sources, even if those sources had official sources.
Cut the G back because the primary focus is getting passengers to Manhattan, not getting them from Brooklyn to Queens and vice-versa. It's better to inconvenience the 300 G passengers to accomodate the 10000 6th Ave passengers, than to do it the other way around.
-Hank
The G actually keeps some people off the Manhattan lines, they take the L to Lorimer for the G. And without the G to QB people will prefer to ride the F through Manhattan just for the direct ride.
Just playing devil's advocate, I personally have no qualms about cutting the G to Court Sq. It was a nice little line, but I'll be very grateful having full 8 car trains on the QB local at all times.
[The G actually keeps some people off the Manhattan lines, they take the L to Lorimer for the G]
You mean reverse commuters? If so there's no overcrowding going to Queens in the morning rush.
Arti
No, I mean 14st people doing regular commuting.
Yeah. I've done it myself. When the F is stalled at Queens Plaza, I sometimes get off and take the next local that comes. If it's a G, I take it to Metropolitan/Lorimer and transfer to the L. I work near 14th anyway.
Metropolitan/Lorimer is an annoying transfer, though.
:-) Andrew
MisterK,
Why is Metropolitan/Lorimer an annoying transfer?
N BWY
It's definitely not the worst transfer in the system. But it's kind of a walk--oh not as bad as the E/F to 6, let alone the A/C/E to everything else at Times Sq, but kind of a walk. And going to the Manhattan-bound L from the G is annoying because you have to walk up a flight of stairs to the mezanine, then down two flights of stairs, then up again one flight.
I do have to say that in general, this is not a great route from Queens to the Union Sq. area. I only use it when things look really bad for the F and a G just happens to come by at Queens Plaza.
:-) Andrew
"The G actually keeps some people off the Manhattan lines, they take the L to Lorimer for the G."
No. The G actually adds to the passenger flow for people traveling to Manhattan. And the G just defeats the purpose of increasing service to Manhattan. In other words, in this case, the MTA plan is good.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Click here
Always stay clear of crazy people on the subway!!!!
That article pissed me off. Why is it a bias crime? It was a hate crime pure and simple. If it is perpetrated against someone who is caucasian it's a bias crime, and if it is a crime against someone other than a white person it is a hate crime. What garbage. It should not matter what the person was who did it or who the victim was, a hate crime is a hate crime. Why did that homeless person shout those anti-white slogans. It was not bias, it was hate pure and simple. Political correctness be damned. Hate is hate, infringing on the rights of others through violence is hate, no matter who the perp is. I'm getting good and disgusted with these play on words by the god-damn media. All of us should be upset at this double standard.
Actually, we as a group should probably be more upset with the fact that subway slashings make the news big-time and yet most other similar crimes elsewhere in the city aren't even back page news.
Actually, we as a group should probably be more upset with the fact that subway slashings make the news big-time and yet most other similar crimes elsewhere in the city aren't even back page news.
And yet ...
One could interpret this in a positive way. The subways have gotten safe enough that a serious crime gets a lot of attention, in a man-bites-dog manner. I'll bet that a similar crime ten years ago would have passed with very little media attention.
I wonder how many other slashings in the city today?
I think I see what you're trying to do... probably no others. But lets see, how many assaulted with a weapon, be it gun, knife, rock, brick, baseball bat? Domestic violence with a broken beer bottle? "Fell down the stairs" emergency room visits? Violent crime is violent crime...
Violent crime is violent crime...
You're right, at least to the extent that assault with a deadly weapon is pretty much the same no matter the weapon.
My point was just that serious crimes of violence happen everywhere and that we get a better handle on the level of such happenings by looking at the whole city.
Good thought. Indeed it was too common years ago, the main reason I left NYC in 1977.
Sea Beach Fred brings up an excellent point as well. Now in truth I couldn't care less..anybody can be my friend; but a hate crime is a hate crime is true.Needless to say the pols planned it to be one sided.
It is a good thought though.. even when things were bad...still proof that humanity is basically overwhelmingly good...we all have our faults, but if this weren't so imagine for the huge numbers of people on he system every day how many murders could take place with the only weapon being the hands and death under a train.
I find it [not really]amusing that some people right away jump "the subway" in a crime case when the same can happen everywhere. My sister once said when I was visiting and talking about my subway travels "don't you know some girl was murdered on the subway?" Just because some jerk pushed his girlfriend between cars to get rid of her was that the train"s fault? Some people!
Hate is not always just hate. The laws and press will always try to eliminate certain things that society at large finds unacceptable. As a society I think that it is safe to say that we find crimes motovated because of and only because of the ethnic or religious group of the victim especially reprehensible and therefore they should be singled out and set appart from other crimes. I'm sick and tierd of conservitives with all of their "a crime is a crime" bullshit. If you really believed that you'd be against the death penalty for killing police. After murder should just be murder. Same for anti-terrorism laws. There is no specific act defined as Terrorism. It is a motive and style that turned an ordinaty crime into terrorism. The same is true for bias crimes. Even if you don't feel that hurting someone simply because of their race is worse than other crimes I have another "non-partisan" arguement. Bias crimes are harder to solve because there are usually now traceable connectims b/t the perp. and the victim. Because the probability of apprehnsion is smaller we need to have higher penalities to have the level of deterrence remain the same.
I agree with your stance on death penalty for killing police.
Why should any one group be singled out for special treatment or protection.
Is my or your life less precious then theirs? Absolutly NOT!
I feel you and I and anyone not covered under that or similar laws are being denied their Constittional Rights for EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW.
It sickens me to hear anyone has been killed. Its worsened when its an officer and the entire force is out turning over each and every stone.
The general public is not afforded this service.
What happened to All Men Are Equal, Equal under the Law.
And a week or so there was a demo at city hall by police ,whining about pay and Life on the line every Day.
I and everyone else should remember last years Puerto Ricain Day Rage
Where was that life on the line from all the officers on O.T.
Double standard here.
Crime is wrong, by a sane or otherwise person. But don't you dare try and stand on a peddistal and lookdown on me and mine.
I put my life on the line for real for 11 months and twentyfive days
defending the Constitution. Those rights are MINE. Bought and paid for.
avid
Well why I may not aggree with you on that for some objective reasons, at least you're not being a hypocrite like all those Republicans who don't want to miss out on their Friday night lynching parties. Hey, are you going to finish the story with the Demonds? It was really getting good.
Seek and yea shall find weedhopper.Look for post by avid
Time 10:51 this A.M.
avid
Sorry it was 08:51A.M.
I found it, but you didn't explain exactly how the Demonds were involved in the accident, where they came from or what their plans for humanity was. You might want to consider them for your next tale.
I don't tail and tell.
Republican hypocites? What trash! What does this have to do with politics or lynching parties? Stop the nonsense. The lady was shouting anti-white slogans before she slashed the innocent lady. That was pure hate. It wouldn't have been done if she hadn't wanted to hurt that person. You and the media want to sugar coat it. It doens't matter what your politics is. And the what hell do you mean by a lynching party when I was just making a point that it was a vicious attack. Get real.
I thought you were railing against "hate" crime legislation and a distinction between "hate" crimes and other crimes. I then hinted that Republicans oppose this becuase they want it to be easy to attack other ethnic groups. Anti-white slogans or not I feel that the attacker probably just had some mental problems.
>I then hinted that Republicans oppose this becuase they want it to
>be easy to attack other ethnic groups
how would that make it easy it is still a crime you still do time you just don't do more time than if you attacked some for thier money.
It's harder to catch people who commit hate crimes because there is usually no link b/t them and the victim. With out extra tough laws there is incentive to attack other ethnic groups because of the low risk of apprehension. I would advocate the same laws for thrill killings and terrorism.
I see your point I still think that hate crime law a wrong
(I see your point I still think that hate crime law a wrong)
Through their actions, those who commit hate crimes seek to incite, or create a climate permissive to, additional violence. Thus, while harming one person, they also participate (or at least try to participate) in the harm of others. Those who commit hate crimes commit an additional crime akin to conspiracy to commit murder.
In this case, however, I think the woman is deranged. It's part of the general "letting the nuts loose on the subway" problem, not the general "race war" problem.
The woman in question apparently did not like caucasians, otherwise she would not have been shouting those racial insults. Deranged? Probably, racist, definately.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
The NYPD is investigating the subway slashing as a bias crime. I also think that the woman who commited the crime was also deranged. You don't come to somebody and cut their face open just because you don't like them. Now that poor woman will have to carry the scars of that other woman's actions for the rest of her life. It took thirty sticthes to close the wounds.
BMTJeff
The NYPD is investigating the subway incident as a bias crime. THAT'S EXTREMELY FUNNY!!!! What they need to do is investigate themselves!!! I find plenty of bias in their department. NO PUN Attented!
I'm sure that there is plenty of bias in the NYPD. The Abner Louima incident is a very good example.
BMTJeff
please don't fed this race baiter
But it's true, unfortunately. Those rotten cops disgraced their honorable profession, and should suffer the way they make their victim hurt.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
The NYPD is investigating the subway slashing as a bias crime. I also think that the woman who commited the crime was also deranged. You don't come to somebody and cut their face open just because you don't like them. Now that poor woman will have to carry the scars of that other woman's actions for the rest of her life. It took thirty stitches to close the wounds.
BMTJeff
"The woman in question apparently did not like caucasians, otherwise she would not have been shouting those racial insults. Deranged? Probably, racist, definately."
That woman is either deranged or racist. She is a victim of discrimination. Her actions were definately part of that equation.
The pain and agony this woman went through, etc.
Just picture yourself going this this crap! and you will see what I'm talking about. Otherwise, you have no business talking about this topic.
"That woman is either deranged or racist." This should have been neither deranged or racist. She is a victim of discrimination. Her actions were definately part of that equation.
The pain and agony this woman went through, etc.
Just picture yourself going this this crap! and you will see what I'm talking about. Otherwise, you have no business talking about this topic.
You are an idiot, plain and simple.
I wonder if the slasher was a victim of discrimination from the slashee? If so, then the slasher was justified. However, the slashee did not NOTHING to the slasher other than be the victim of the actions of a DERANGED AND RACIST INDIVIDUAL, just like you.
I'm not going to call you names, because that will be a childish thing to do. I made my oppinion of which I stand by it. The homeless woman was a victim. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
By the way, I send my codolescence to the family of the slash victim. But what needs to be understood, every day, blacks and homeless people are slashed in the face in this city in so many different ways. So one out of a thousand incidents is not that bad compare to the pain so many blacks and homeless endure on an average day.
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but what happened to that white individual is a sign the system needs to stop oppressing homeless and black individuals in this city (country). Plain And Simple!
PS: I'm not tell anyone to go out there to slash anyone because of their race (black, white, hispanic, or Asian). WHAT SHE DID WAS ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE! AND I FEEL FOR THAT WHITE WOMEN WHO GOT STAB. SO IF YOU HAVE A SOUND MIND! DON'T DO IT! IT'S WRONG!!! But what we can't ignore what lead to the incident.
People rather call her names without digging deeper. Because it's so EASY! And because many people on this board don't want to omit that they have prejudices against homeless and or black individuals. It's HARD! But the truth will set you free. Or at least humanity will set you free if it still exist.
This isn't an indictment of the people on this board. I love you guys/gals very much. JUST OPEN YOUR EYES PLEASE. Thanks much!
Why don't you ride a redbird with salaam off a pier.
YOU ASKED FOR IT
No Dand124! WHY DON'T YOU STAND INFRONT OF THE REDBIRD SO I CAN RAM IT UP YOUR A**
Well, nothing can be rammed up your ass since your colon is so clearly connected to your mouth.
GO PIGS!!! I am still totaling up the score, but this LIBERAL thinks Dand124 WON the argument!
For those who care I voted for Harry Brown not Shurb
Ok, A Libertarian. SHURB ? , Can I use it
I did not put that one through spell check it is shrub
All right guys, this is Sea Beach Fred telling you guys to cut out this crap. It's getting very personal and it's not getting us anywhere. Unfortunately, bigots come in all shapes, sizes and colors, and that woman did not like white people. Maybe she was harassed by white people, maybe she was wronged by white people. If so, those who hurt her should be punished by a higher law when their turn comes. The fact is, however, that she shouted bigoted slogans and hurt an innocent person. We can weight the pros and cons of those things, but to go for each other with the venom I've seen is just stupid. So let's cool it.
>>> People rather call her names without digging deeper. Because it's so EASY! And because many people on this board don't want to omit that they have prejudices against homeless and or black individuals <<<
I'm glad to see this explanation of your previous intemperate message. Unless you personally knew the woman in question, it is impossible to know what experiences she had that led up to her action. To suggest she was a righteous victim of racism which led up to the attack without such knowledge is tantamount to saying it is ok for any person of color to attack any white person at any time.
I acknowledge that this remains a racist society, despite all the progress made in the last 45 years, but that does not in itself excuse this type of attack.
Tom
Racism is a two way street which a lot of people on either side don't like to admit. In various parts of the world [some places in the USA too] it goes beyond color. Somebody hates somebody else no matter where. True though no excuse to kill or maim.
Good to see you're about, Tom.
The one positive thing about this topic is that at least we are discussing the problem and bringing it out in the open. Maybe we can even change a mind or two, especially if we can see the other person's point of view. To bottle it up and keep our opinions inside add nothing to the problem, but if we can discuss this subject like mature adults I think it's a big step forward. I like the fact that these episodes of violence on the subway are very rare nowadays. It means at least in this area things have greatly improved.
>>> Good to see you're about, Tom <<<
Thanks Ed, but I can't stay long because the candle wick is burning down, and my legs are tired from pedaling the bicycle hooked to a generator to keep the computer running.
Tom
Hahahahaaaahaah.
"In this case, however, I think the woman is deranged. It's part of the general "letting the nuts loose on the subway" problem, not the general "race war" problem."
I have a big problem calling the woman deranged. It completely removes the fact she's homesless in the first place.
First off, the response should be, what lead to her taking drastic actions against her oppressor? And how can that be prevented in the future?
Answer: Providing meaningful housing for everyone regardless of race. And give equal access to the job market based on skills not race.
In other words, the blame should be put on the system for creating the conditions that lead to this incident.
"First off, the response should be, what lead to her taking drastic actions against her oppressor?"
Her oppressor?!?! HER OPPRESSOR?!?!?!?!?!?!
Some random person on the subway headed to or from work like all of us is her oppressor because she (the victim, not the attacker) happens to be white and non-poor? How did the attacker know:
1) what the victim does? Maybe she volunteers in a homeless shelter in her free time? Maybe she gives lots of money to charity? Maybe she works as a counselor, social worker, or nurse?
2) what the victim's beliefs were? Maybe she's racist, or maybe she had strong anti-racist beliefs.
But that was all irrelevant. What the attacker saw -- all that she COULD know -- was a white women presentably dressed. If that makes her the attacker's oppressor, in your words, then you seem to be arguing that every poor person, or minority person who has suffered serious discrimination, has the right to stick a knife into the next random white or non-poor minority person they meet. Please correct me if that's not your point.
"If that makes her the attacker's oppressor, in your words, then you seem to be arguing that every poor person, or minority person who has suffered serious discrimination, has the right to stick a knife into the next random white or non-poor minority person they meet."
NO! My point is racism that the system dishes out to black people effects white people in many ways. This was one example, but they are plenty of other examples as well.
This is a lesson for everyone should learn. What you dish out to someone will come back to hunt you in the future. Whether that's the system of oppression, or a whites or "upperclass" individuals, it will come back to you. So the next time you see a homeless person, SMILE! Let them know that they are human beings like you.
I have a big problem calling the woman deranged. It completely removes the fact she's homesless in the first place.
She is homeless because she is deranged.
For the response to the rest of your message, see John B. Bredin's EXCELLENT post.
Also, I recommend you visit a surgeon IMMEDIATELY and have your colon disconnected from your mouth.
"She is homeless because she is deranged."
NOW THAT'S VERY BIAS! NO! She isn't homeless because she deranged. She is homeless because the system worked against her like so many black individuals like her.
Most homeless people are white drunks or drugies.
Where you get your statistics? If that is true, over 72 percent of the country is white. Therefore, your point is irrelevant, because, black people make up a larger percentage of homeless individuals than whites in their group.
I know waht I see There are FAR MORE WHITE HOMELESS THAN BLACK.
And the system abused her how? Not giving her the proper mental care. That happens to white skinned, black skinned and anus mouthed people like you
"Not giving her the proper mental care."
You forgot the health out of mental. Please do your research, It's mental health, not mental.
Talking about the mental health system, homeless people as well as whites, blacks, asians and hispanics have every right to avoid it. It doesn't heal people, it makes their conditions worse. The drugs that are given to these individuals cause severe side-effects that lead to suicides, homicidal tendancies, and depression. I wouldn't send my dog there.
What this woman needed was mentors who could've guide her in the right direction. And a social system that could have given her money so she could use to rent an affordable apartment.
People need to be treated like human beings. No manner what there condition are. To treat someone with malice only leads to revenge as is the case with the stabbing.
Ever heard the song "LOVE WILL SAVE THE DAY" by Whitney Houston? Well, you should download it from http://www.napster.com . It's relates very well to the womans situation.
What she needs is love, NOT PUNISHMENT. It's not her fault. To accomodate this woman's ill situation, they should finally do what is right. Give her that social service check, along with some mentors who can assist her in getting an apartment and job.
This is what this poor woman needs. She doesn't need to be bashed in the head over, and over again by the press. She needs LOVE!
Either you are an incredibly tender hearted caucasian who cares deeply about the plight of poor black people, an admirable and positive character identification, or you are an African-American ready to make excuses for a person who committed a dastardly hostile racial hate crime. We have to keep in mind this point, that whenever a hate crime is committed by one member of a race against another race, it is up to the people to condemn that act of savagery. We must not start defending acts that are despicable hateful and racist just because we feel an obligation to defend "our" group. That is the only way to bridge that disgraceful racial divide that seems to still be with us.
Seabeach,
If this individual was a middle class black woman who lived in an equal society whereas both groups (white and black) shared power, indeed her actions was that of a racist. But since she was a poor homeless woman living in horrible conditions and, on top of that, being oppressed by people who looked like her victim, than I differ with your last oppinion.
Her actions was definately that of a person going through extreme stress situation. The words that came out of the woman's mouth was that of frustration, not racial hatred.
When white youths attacks a black person, they are attacking him because they hate black people. There condition did not lead them to attacking that black individual.
This woman could have attack a black person. But the population using the 34 Street station is greatly by whites because of the Long Island Railroad. I should know, because, I regularly used that station after work.
In the trueist sense of the word, I don't really think black people can be racist. They hardly own anything that was manufacture by themselves, or control the policies that govern this country.
Personal relationships b/t whites and blacks have dampened because of the current administration. One run by a white guy called Guiliani. Therefore, any amount of hatred that black people have of whites are triggered by how white people treat blacks, not the other way around.
It's like being a coach on a football team. In order to win the game, you must have an equally strong defense and offense. Otherwise, your opponent will win the game.
In the matter of race relations, it is the same. The offender are usually whites who established laws that restrict the movement of blacks. From housing, jobs, and education, these are all factors. Blacks, on the other hand, had to establish a good defense to combat some of the abuses they received from the system (co word for white).
By the way, the word race means competition. Everyday, whites and blacks compete with one another. Whether that be business, economics, or simply surviving as a race, it has been both our reality for a long time.
Simply discussing what the woman did is missing the whole point. The mere fact that she was homeless in one of the riches country's in the world says a lot about what's wrong with the United States, not her.
When people blame the homeless person, they are overlooking the fact that clinton passed a dreadful welfare reform (deform) act that was a safety net for many poor people.
If the woman was a racist, she would have had a past history of targeting racial groups different from her own. She was frustrated by the system and took it out on one individual which was unfortunate.
I heard of similar incidences in the black community whereas the prepertrator was black and the victim was black. There's most definately more self hatred (blacks against blacks) than blacks against whites. And more whites against blacks than the other way around. ((LONG STORY))
This subject is so tiring now. But this story really strike a cord once I read some of the hateful responses on this board. I'm not surprise though, because I live it everyday of my life!
"When white youths attacks a black person, they are attacking him because they hate black people."
Or because they are ass holes and feel like attacking someone. it is more offten than not not about race.
Right! A white person who attacks a black person because he is black is despicable and that white guy is a no good ass@#$%^ who should get the living crap knocked out of him. There is absolutely no reason for any person to attack someone physically because they are of a different color. No excuse whatsoever. But Broadway may have had some experiences we haven't had so he may have a little different perspective. As long as we keep it civil we can have a good conversation about racial problems and try to start the healing process. I think I speak for most of us when I say I hate racial bigotry===of any kind. I expecially hate white bigotry because I'm white and feel humiliated and shamed when some jerk says he did something to a minority to protect the white race. What crap.
I like your message. It's balance SeaBeach. No one should assault anyone regardless of race. They should handle their conflicts verbally or through moderation.
"There is absolutely no reason for any person to attack someone physically because they are of a different color."
no one should ever attack any one for any reson motive is not an issue,
Hey Broadway N: I do like the way you battle for your point of view. I don't agree with everything you say, but you are advocate for what you believe and I admire you for that. Maybe when I'm in New York we can touch base and ride the Sea Beach out to Coney Island, have a dog at Nathans, and maybe ride the Cyclone. Then we can have a real talk man to man and see what we can do to help others bridge the racial gap and make us act like brothers.
Thanks for being kind. No problem, when ever your in town.
March 30-April 1. Going to the 50th Anniversary of the Giants=Dodgers great pennant race of 1951. A big dinner at the Marquis-Hilton. But I have Saturday off and most of Sunday before I have to fly back to California. Would love to touch base with you and some other railfanners. I think that would be a blast.
Just e-mail me when your in town and I will see if my schedule permit a get together. Thanks!
>>> When white youths attacks a black person, they are attacking him because they hate black people. There condition did not lead them to attacking that black individual.<<<
>>> In the trueist sense of the word, I don't really think black people can be racist. They hardly own anything that was manufacture by themselves, or control the policies that govern this country. <<<
Talk about a double standard! When whites attack blacks it is hate, but when blacks attack whites it is the fault of the "system" which is controlled by whites.
You make the mistake of all racists of lumping all people into a group. There is a difference between the head of the KKK and most white people. There is a difference between Colin Powell and some ghetto dwelling crack dealer.
Yes there are black racists. One of the manifestations of this racism is the ostracism of blacks in high schools and colleges who have white friends, by other blacks.
The suggestion that blacks do not have enough power in this country to be racist is also bogus. If I meet a black man who happens to be carrying a gun while I am unarmed, he has sufficient power in that situation to be a racist. If he chooses to shoot me because of my race, (as opposed to disliking me personally) it is a racist hate crime. What caused him to hate me? It dose not matter. When a white person kills a black man because of his race it is also a racist hate crime. What caused him to do it? It does not matter. His condition did cause him to do it. It is probably something he learned from other racists. That is the nature of the "system".
Tom
To my minds eye hate and bias are the same thing.
Peace,
ANDEE
Think of the two words. Does bias sound as angry and mean as hate? You may think so, but to be there is a big difference in the tone. If a person attack another person on the basis of race, color or creed with the intent to harm---that's HATE!!!
Hate is ALWAYS negative, no matter to whom or what.
Bias can be used in mild situations.
eg: I'm biased towards the Redbirds because I grew up with them (not true for me, but an example nonetheless).
Special laws against hate (or bias) crimes have had unintended consequences. Most of them were sponsored by limousine liberal types as a way of protecting minorities from vicious hateful Ice People. That, of course, fits in with the limo-lib concept of infantilizing minorities - the poor helpless darlings need special protection. But now, in the real world, things aren't working as expected. More often than not, minorities are being charged with hate-crime offenses. This no doubt has led to a huge increase in Xanax and Prozac consumption on the Upper West Side.
Something similar has happpened with domestic-violence laws, especially those making it mandatory for police to make arrests if they believe there's been any domestic violence. These also were politically correct laws, intended to protect frail helpless women from attacks by their fearsome husbands and boyfriends. Well, surprise surprise, in many states a high percentage of the domestic violence arrestees come from the squat-to-tinkle segment of the population.
So, what's wrong with equal application of the laws. Minorities can commit hate crimes and women can be abusive. In ethier case it should be stopped. I would be more worried if these specific laws were being applied outside their scope. Most multi-ethnic crimes have nothing to do with race.
How can one tell if it is a hate crime or not?
The same way you discover the motive behind any other crime and if you can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt it then he's not guilty of a hate crime.
Then all anyone commiting a hate crime would have to do is steel some money from the person they are killing/attacking.
A hate crime is a crime that is committed because and only because of a persons race or religion (or at least it should be). If they prove you stole from someone because he is of a certain race only because you want revenge/payback upon that race or you just feel they need to suffer/pay then that is a hate crime. If you just want money is it just robbery.
But there will allways be reasonable doubt that it was just about money.
If a robbery was ever going to be tried as a hate crime you could bet that the procution would have some evidence of the perpetraitor's intent like wittnesses as to what he said or did. These laws to mostly to procute people who do hateful vandalism and people to randomly attack people because of who they are. Your nit picky little questions come up in every single part of criminal justice. It's why we have a jurys to find facts and judges to interperate the laws.
vandalism is vandalism and to add years to a sentnce base on what they wrote is a violation of the first amendment. as is adding years to a sentence based on what someone said when they were commiting robbery.
Get off the hate robbery obsession. I doubt you'll ever see one of those. You should be punished according to the damage you cause. Hate vandalism causes racial unrest and it is a gateway to more serious crimes. Its harm goes far beyond the physical damage caused..
Do you know about Free Speach
Please tell me when destroying proterty became covered under the first ammendment. Once you stop speaking and take action the law is free to do what ever it wants to prevent that kind of action from happening again. I'm sick of this. This conversation is over.
Please tell me when destroying proterty became covered under the first ammendment.
it isn't but to charge people differently bassed on what the say is covered under the first ammendment. I have no less of a right to write stupid n**** on a wall than i do th write Go Red Sox or Redbirds are awfull.
Then all anyone commiting a hate crime would have to do is steel some money from the person they are killing/attacking.
How can one tell if it is a hate crime or not?
In most cases, a "hate crime" determination is made based upon comments the defendant makes before or during the crime. In the recent slashing at Penn Station, the defendant's anti-white comments are what lead to the hate crime issue. Had she not said anything, or at least not anything related to race, no one would be thinking in terms of a hate crime.
Moral of the story - if you're going to rob or assault someone, keep your mouth shut :-)
"In most cases, a "hate crime" determination is made based upon comments the defendant makes before or during the crime. In the recent slashing at Penn Station, the defendant's anti-white comments are what lead to the hate crime issue. Had she not said anything, or at least not anything related to race, no one would be thinking in terms of a hate crime.
Moral of the story - if you're going to rob or assault someone, keep your mouth shut :-)"
Which of course brings up the issue of whether or not any hate crime law will ever survive an appeal that it violates free speech.
You are not being punshed for the speech, only your motive and intent. Your speech only gives edivence of that. I don't know how the law is worded, but I do not feel that if you only use ethnic slurs just to do something like intimidate your victim when otherwise race played no other factor, that it should be a hate crime. Hate crime legislation should deal with motovations and intent.
In the immortal words of Johnny Cockran, "She played the Race Card!"
avid
Two words Free Speach
When you make a tape in which you call out your plans to kill someone and then they are killed, should that be used as evidence or should it be protected by free speech?
Similarly if you assault this person and then the tape is found, would it be a violation of free speech to use it to charge you with attempted murder instead of assault?
(When you make a tape in which you call out your plans to kill someone and then they are killed, should that be used as
evidence or should it be protected by free speech?)
of couse it should be used a evidence. howeever hate crimes add year to your sentnce based on what you said or were thinking the is a violation of free speach
(Similarly if you assault this person and then the tape is found, would it be a violation of free speech to use it to charge you with
attempted murder instead of assault?)
it would not be a violation of free speach since it shows that you commited a crime. Wheather or not one should be charged with attemed murder or assault with intent to kill depends on what weapon is used.
You're reaching there Curly Tail...
Both examples show intent to commit a crime. Constitutional free speech issues deal with the ability of a person to have and voice their opinions -- regardless of how distasteful they may be.
Here's an example -- flawed somewhat, but it helps me frame the issue. Suppose I go out an kill Smith -- a green person. While doing this I declare for all to hear that I despise green people and think they should go back where they came from. I am tried and convicted of a hate crime (or bias crime, whatever you want to call it) and sentenced to 30 years in jail. Had I just kept my mouth shut and left no traces of my ugly opinions, I would have been convicted of simple murder and sentenced to 25 years.
If you believe that all people have equal protection under the law, then my sentence is fairly easily interpreted as 25 years for murder and 5 years for having opinions that are not "correct". That seems clearly unconstitutional to me.
Obviously the above is an extreme example, but it gets to the heart of what most of those who are so strongly opposed to hate crime legislation are saying. (Not that there aren't who are opposed to bias crime legislation for all of the "wrong" reasons, there are plenty). There are definitely laws and penalties which could be developed which would make the constitutional issues cloudier, but I suspect they wouldn't pass a constitutional intent smell test anyway. That doesn't mean the debate should end.
Unfortunately, in the U.S. today "racist" has become what "communist" was 50 years ago. A charge for which no proof is needed or offered and one which ends all potential for meaningful debate. And if you declare a disdain for hate crime legislation, it doesn't take long before you get branded a racist or a homophobe.
CG
So, what's wrong with equal application of the laws. Minorities can commit hate crimes and women can be abusive. In ethier case it should be stopped.
Even if you had a geographically neutral handle, I would know, due to your comment, that you're not from the Upper West Side.
Those limousine liberals are a disgusting sort. They live in expensive high rise condos, or apts, eat the best food, go to the great theatres, and have absolutely nothing to do with the very people they pretend to care about. And, worse, they send their kids to private schools because, whether they want to admit it or not, and they do not want to admit it, they don't their kids being exposed to those very same type of people. I mean poor black, latino, or white. What phoniness. That's disgusting. I have my faults, no doubt about that, but I would never consider insulating my daughter like that. She was exposed to all people and has good friends regardless of what they look like and how they worship. I know I've done one thing right, at least. I despise hypocisy, andthose limousine liberals are hypocricy personified.
Sounds like Right Wing School Voucher problems are in line
ROSA,
Your comment is right on point. What I want to add, as long as the victims are black, anti-bias legislation has been difficult to pass. But when the shoe is on the other foot. WE NEED STRONGER ANTI-BIAS LEGISLATION!
I WANT hate crime legislation and many of us Republicans do. Anyone who tries to hurt another person because of his race, color or creed is a very rotten human being and deserves to be proscribed. But we have to be even and fair about it. Maybe whites were in the forefront of bigotry in this country, but sadly, there are Black, Latino, and Asian bigots as well. All should be treated the same and consigned to the lower levels of humanity.
Well it looks like I started an arguement over somthing we both agree about. I need to go find some chill pills cause I've been way too adversarial as of late.
Chill pills? I might have to borrow a few from you because whenever I think of those limousine liberals I need some prozac, or something to calm me down. Those people are as phony as a four dollar bill. They claim to care for the downtrodden but keep a safe distance from the very people they pretend to care about. AND....they make sure their children stay even farther away. What garbage.
Those people are as phony as a four dollar bill.
Aw nuts, I think I just got screwed.
"but sadly, there are Black, Latino, and Asian bigots as well."
None of these groups you mentioned run the American system. Therefore, it doesn't make any sense to overlook the fact that this hate crime might be in response of how these are treated in this system.
Hate crime was ment for blacks who were (still are) victims of white youths with baseball bats. Not the other way around.
"but sadly, there are Black, Latino, and Asian bigots as well."
None of these groups you mentioned run the American system. Therefore, it doesn't make any sense to overlook the fact that this hate crime might be in response of how these are treated in this system.
Bullshit. Each of these ethnic groups has as much right in the system and has as much protection, unless they are under eighteen or convicted felons still serving a sentence.
Why don't you and your anencephalic friends start a revolution. I would like it if you and your RACIST beliefs are defeated in a rain of gunfire.
Hate crime was ment for blacks who were (still are) victims of white youths with baseball bats. Not the other way around.
No matter how you slice it bozo, it's still hate.
"The lady was shouting anti-white slogans before she slashed the innocent lady. That was pure hate."
One thing I notice, when people are under extreme amont of stress, they say things they regret later.
I can understand this womans frustration. Everyday this woman is laughed at, frown upon, and denied access to service.
The only bias that I see, is the people who knowingly look over her situation.
Another thing, bias is expressed everyday in this city by the action people take against another racial group. Not what comes out of a persons mouth.
To me that's a big problem, because, many people are fooled into believing that this is an equal society for everyone. IT MOST DEFINATELY ISN'T!
This woman was obviously neglected by the system. And this was because she was black and homeless. Whatever came out of her mouth reflects the pain she endure from the very same people who denied her access to the same service they benefit from.
One thing I notice, when people are under extreme amont of stress, they say things they regret later.
What stress? Is this homeless woman prone to stress from seeing bright skinned people?
I can understand this womans frustration. Everyday this woman is laughed at, frown upon, and denied access to service.
You seem to know so much about her. Tell me, is she a friend of yours?
The only bias that I see, is the people who knowingly look over her situation.
Homeless people are either INCREDIBLY lazy, disabled or deranged. The latter is a problem with our system of mental health which needs SUPER reform. However even with the problems of our mental health system, there is NOTHING in it that makes black people worse off than white people exclusively based on race (there is no correlation between mental illness and race).
Another thing, bias is expressed everyday in this city by the action people take against another racial group. Not what comes out of a persons mouth.
Now, please tell us what those actions are. I don't remember EVER taking an action against someone and doing it differently based on race.
To me that's a big problem, because, many people are fooled into believing that this is an equal society for everyone. IT MOST DEFINATELY ISN'T!
It isn't. Some people are created idiots, and some people are more idiots than others (like you).
This woman was obviously neglected by the system. And this was because she was black and homeless. Whatever came out of her mouth reflects the pain she endure from the very same people who denied her access to the same service they benefit from.
Tell me how the woman slashed was responsible for her alleged neglect.
"Tell me how the woman slashed was responsible for her alleged neglect."
The white woman wasn't responsible for the incident directly! But what lead to the incident carried some great responsibility. In other words, if this black homeless woman got the service she so rightfully deserved, we would not be talking about this incident or others like it.
It is people like you who make the racism in this nation worse by blaming everything a black person does on a white person. Remember Hitler said the Jews brought it on themselves and Stalin thought he was justified in his killing of 30 million people.
What I know of history, Germans never had to endure 400 years of slavery like black americans. They were the institutions that oppressed and killed Jews. So your point is fruitless.
>Well why I may not aggree with you on that for some objective
>reasons, at least you're not being a hypocrite like
>all those Republicans who don't want to miss out on their Friday
>night lynching parties. Hey, are you going to finish the story
>with the Demonds? It was really getting good.
I am getting fed up with all of your hate speach
I'm getting fed up with Republican lies.
>I'm getting fed up with Republican lies.
I'm getting fed up with lies from all pols. In case you missed it people form both sides of the isle lie and many people from both sides are racist. For most people this raceism is covert. For example Brokeline Mass. is one of the most democriatic places in the Nation. The people there say all the right things. But when it comes down to it they are willing to spend a billon dollers of state mone to build a subway from boylston the south station to keep non-white people off the green line.
Well said Dand124. I just can't see what Jersey is trying to prove. This is not a Republican or Democratic issue. It's a human issue.
NO SEABEACH! It's a BLACK and WHITE ISSUE!
I feel bad for Sea Beach Fred right now.
His Sea Beach is always being attacked by the Brighton camp and Brighton Beach Bob and he calls for other Sea Beach allies to come out of the woodwork.
Finally, somebody does come out in favor of the N, and it's a racist, good-for-nothing like you.
Racist?
You got the wrong person fella. I was speaking about a situation I feel very dear to. This woman doesn't have access to the internet or the corporate media. Her side would never be heard because it is suppressed like others like her.
I'm that small voice in the wilderness who believes in human rights for everyone. Even our homeless individuals. Too bad the majority of citizen's don't believe our homeless people should be treated like human beings.
Saaaaaaaddddddddd.
This woman doesn't have access to the internet
Public libraries have free net access and the homeless are not keep out.
"Public libraries have free net access and the homeless are not keep out."
Why should the public library keep them out? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of calling the public libraries in the first place? hmmmmmmm.
Enough of this subject. This topic has been address enough. For those of righteous mind understand how it is to be homeless and black. And for the others, lets hope one day something fascinating happens to their mind. Like GROW UP ALREADY!
Bye.
"Why should the public library keep them out? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of calling the public libraries in the first place? hmmmmmmm."
I did not say they should be. What I said was that she has net access
Like GROW UP ALREADY!
Stop talking to yourself
You know Pork, and anyone else tuning in to this piece, there is a silver lining to all this and that's the fact that these crimes are not happening too often on the subway. Things have improved an awful lot the past decade and we should take heed of this. The subway dosen't seem to be a place of fear and crime any more. We should all be grateful for that. I will be looking forward to riding the rails when I'm in New York from March 30-April 1.
Hate Speech?
The only hate speech I'm hearing is against that poor black helpless homeless victim who attacked her perpetrator (or at least a miror image of her perpetrator).
It seems plain to me the Jersey is sending some very extreme and hateful post it seems to me that he is acting as a race baiter. That combined with he recently stated view on one of the worlds larges religions makes me wonder about his views. I am beginning to think that he is a left wing hate monger.
see bleow
JM "all those
Republicans who don't want to miss out on their Friday night lynching parties"
I'm sorry for that last post it was way over the line could it be removed?
It was not over the line. It was bold and risky.
You should be PROUD of it.
I just don't know much about him and should not of name-called
This message was posted to me. I'm not a hateful person. I'm a victim like that homeless black woman who was stabbed by the system once again. Instead of providing some help earlier to this individual, they wait to punish her. WHAT A SHAME. But this is the country that had 400 years of slavery which still exist today.
It was posted in responce to something jersey mike not you wrote. And we do not have slavery in this nation today. yes there are racist people but most people are not raceist you only give the racist reason to be racesis.
Are you speaking as a person who is oppressed or someone who have endless priviledge because of your whiteness? Don't tell me they isn't slavery, I see it everyday! Just look at the prisons. They are full of black men who's only crime was they was young and black.
While there are some innocent people in prison most of them are guilty of the foolish drug laws.
At least we agree on this point. But I had a enough of this subject. I still stand by what I said. Please look into her situation before you make judgement. That's all I'm saying.
You have every right to stand by a pile of trash.
although i have never been homeless and i am white, there
have been times in my life when i got a glimpse of what it must feel like to be homeless or poor in the middle of one of the richest cities on earth... i've gotten glimpses of it when i was sick with a tooth ache or worried about doctors, and i looked around and saw everyone else going around worry-free... i've gotten frightening glimpses of walking around in the bitter cold and seeing people who had no home that was warm and safe to go to... i can only guess at the hurt and rage that must build up in a person who is homeless and hopeless in this city... i am by no means justifying what happened in the subway... i am just trying to acknowledge a little awareness of the hurt that people less fortunate must feel when they see so many people living normal lives...
i am sure there are some people who will say that these homeless people have only themselves to blame... why don't they get jobs?... i am afraid that if the economy ever bursts, like it did during the depression, many of us who take a lot of things for granted will become aware of how near the crap end of the stick our lives are...
Good point, heypaul, unfortunately the mental health system is broken and it's going to take a lot of courage AND $$$MONEY$$$ to fix it but the general public shouldn't have to face the real threat posed by these people.
"mental health system is broken"
The mental health system has always been broken since it was founded. And society is broken because no one cares about anyone anymore.
Good point, heypaul, unfortunately the mental health system is broken and it's going to take a lot of courage AND $$$MONEY$$$ to fix it but the general public shouldn't have to face the real threat
posed by these people.
Getting the mentally ill homeless out of the subways and off the streets would require a big increase in involuntary commitments. That wouldn't be possible without significant changes to the state's mental health laws. I suspect that many people, even those strongly in favor of a "skell-free" subway, would be rather uncomfortable giving the state such expanded powers.
heypaul
"although i have never been homeless and i am white, there
have been times in my life when i got a glimpse of what it must feel like to be homeless or poor in the middle of one of the richest cities on earth... i've gotten glimpses of it when i was sick with a tooth ache or worried about doctors, and i looked around and saw everyone else going around worry-free... i've gotten frightening glimpses of walking around in the bitter cold and seeing people who had no home that was warm and safe to go to... i can only guess at the hurt and rage that must build up in a person who is homeless and hopeless in this city... i am by no means justifying what happened in the subway... i am just trying to acknowledge a little awareness of the hurt that people less fortunate must feel when they see so many people living normal lives...
i am sure there are some people who will say that these homeless people have only themselves to blame... why don't they get jobs?... i am afraid that if the economy ever bursts, like it did during the depression, many of us who take a lot of things for granted will become aware of how near the crap end of the stick our lives are..."
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! MAN!!! I WISH THEY WAS MORE FOLKS LIKE YOU!!! YOU GOT A REAL HEART!!!! AND YOU CAN IMAGE HOW IT IS TOO BE HOMELESS!!!! GOD BE WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
The only hate speech I'm hearing is against that poor black helpless homeless victim who attacked her perpetrator (or at least a miror image of her perpetrator).
What about the black woman's racist comments against the INNOCENT VICTIM?
Then call it by the same name whenever a person of one race brutally attacks someone of another race. The fact is I read about all this bias attack crap when a caucasian is attacked, but it's hate crime otherwise. That's BS. A bigot is a bigot, a hater is a hater, no matter what his color, race or creed. But the media doesn't do it that way. Just read up on these as I have and you'll see for yourself. If you think what happened in the subway was not a hate crime, you, sir, are out of it. Pure and simple.
I haven't notice the media making this distinction. But, then, I haven't been looking for it. I'll be watching for it now.
"If you think what happened in the subway was not a hate crime, you, sir, are out of it."
It's not a hate crime at all Seabeach. It's an act of a frustrated woman under extreme amount of stress. If you was homeless and black, you will know how it feels. Since you aren't, your comments are all meaningless.
Oy! After just having finished reading Jennifer Toth's
book... these stories DO take on a whole new perspective..
especially the "noting" of 8th Avenue/34st and Toth's
"revelation" of what lies in that area..
Oy! After just having finished reading Jennifer Toth's book... these stories DO take on a whole new perspective.. especially the "noting" of 8th Avenue/34st and Toth's "revelation" of what lies in that area..
Are you referring to the book "The Mole People"? If so, you should be aware that the book is fictional garbage.
It's not a hate crime at all Seabeach. It's an act of a frustrated woman under extreme amount of stress. If you was homeless and black, you will know how it feels. Since you aren't, your comments are all meaningless.
You sir, are a meaningless idiot.
I have a rage awakened inside of me that hasn't happened since Eugenius D. Train began to fight salaam allah subway pornographer.
It's not a hate crime at all Seabeach. It's an act of a frustrated woman under extreme amount of stress. If you was homeless and black, you will know how it feels. Since you aren't, your comments are all meaningless.
Since your comments are so meaningful, it must mean you are homeless.
Tell me, where do you access the internet?
I was homeless a long time ago as a youth. I know how it feels to be homeless. I can relate to this women. She is a victim. AND SO AM I! But it won't always be like that because god is on the side good regardless of race.
CAN THE GOOD AND RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE STEP FORWARD?
CAN THE GOOD AND RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE STEP FORWARD?
By that you mean only people who have ideas that are close to communist.
OH! Now I'm a communist because I believe this individual plight needs to be understood! WOW! I thought this was suppose to be a free country? So why are you hampering my ability to express myself freely without recessitation (retaliation)?
I thought I made my point very well on this board. No need to answer anymore messages to this subject. Lets get back to business in discussing the various subway lines.
Bye.
see topic
Yes, although it's been a while.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, although it's been a while.
The zoo keeper left the cage door unlocked.
"ROSA" Sounds italian. Look at your history. Just maybe we might be relate. BYE!
That means you should step backward, racist.
She is a victim. AND SO AM I!
Oh, so you're a victim, you poor darling? Please explain how. I can guarantee that you're not.
All color folks are victims of this system in many different ways. From the public schools, to the prisons, and we can't forget the biggest mass murder of them all. THE HOSPITALS! We all know about the police, and the fire department who redline minorities out of employment. The public and private job markets of which blacks and other minorities are paid at much lower rates than their white counterparts. And the list goes, on and on, and on. Should I continue?
Why don't you show us some prof?
BOY! I can't believe how ignorant people are today. Damn! YOU ALL HAD OVER 30 + 400 years to find out what these discrepancies are. Just look around the city. Look who are the managers and the CEO's. Go into those midtown offices and see what you find. Visit the police precincts in the city. All the information is there.
I was going to get the 2000 census results on this subject but the website is down. I f anyone has the info let me know.
Since we are "blood brothers" of a sort, let me tell you how we might have blown just recently. In 1996 Colin Powell, ahead of Bill Clinton in the polls by 15-20% decided against running for President. Yes, he would have cleaned Clinton's clock and we would have an African-American President and this country would have made a gigantic step in the right direction. But he chose not to run and we are sadder for it. The point is things are much better today than 40 years ago. We have to keep pushing the envelope to keep the momentum going, but pissing people off and thinking the worst of them isn't a great way to accomplish this. Since we take the handle of the same train, I felt I might be able to reach you more effectively than some of the others. True, the past was intolerable to black people, but we have to look ahead, not behind. Meet the barriers we run into and knock them over and out of the way. If we look behind us we will run into a roadblock and knock ourselves over. Let's look ahead. ok?
Thee should not be any hate crime laws or cop killer laws. It does not matter what someone reason for the crime was what metters is thier intent. however Terrorism is an a different crime because it's goal is to scare a large group of people in to changeing their actions and should have more servere jail terms. Some of the most frighning hate crimes would count as terrorism.
I wouldn't beat up on that homeless black woman. The mere fact that she's homeless has a lot to do with how the system (run by white men) favors whites over blacks. For instance, many jobs are shut off from black americans who find a brick wall in their path. And, just recently, a judge ruled in favor of the plantiants who found the education system to be bias against inner city youths (mostly persons of color).
Lets not pretend that black people aren't tormented everyday. And for homeless black people, it's much worse. Everyday, homeless people and black americans endure hisses, rolling of eyes, cough and even spitting from whites. They are followed in stores, and are given very inferior services when it comes to health care, education, housing, sanitation, etc. It's no surprise that more black homeless people don't participate in acts of violence.
Everyday, public school children (mostly people of color) endure acts of violence from teacher staff who are mostly white. And we can't forget about the countless amount of cases involving victims of police harassment/brutality and murder. Hardly ever do they print anything about these incidence in the "mainstream" press. So! BeFORE ANYONE CHARACTER ASSASINATES THAT HOMELESS BLACK LADY! YOU ALL have to understand the conditions that lead to that minor incident in the subway this week.
I wouldn't beat up on that homeless black woman. The mere fact that she's homeless has a lot to do with how the system (run by white men) favors whites over blacks. For instance, many jobs are shut off from black americans who find a brick wall in their path. And, just recently, a judge ruled in favor of the plantiants who found the education system to be bias against inner city youths (mostly persons of color).
Bull doo-doo. The vast majority of black people (and Hispanics, and Asians, and other non-whites) are not homeless deranged criminals. They may have to face discrimination - we could argue endlessly about how bad it is - but they lead responsible lives.
Lets not pretend that black people aren't tormented everyday. And for homeless black people, it's much worse. Everyday, homeless people and black americans endure hisses, rolling of eyes, cough and even spitting from whites. They are followed in stores, and are given very inferior services when it comes to health care, education, housing, sanitation, etc. It's no surprise that more black homeless people don't participate in acts of violence.
Wake up. This isn't the Deep South of 1920. Most whites these days do not hate blacks; in fact, except for Upper West Side limousine liberals, most whites have long since come to the realization that blacks are people, just like they themselves are (the limo libs, of course, think blacks are helpless infants). Discrimination against the homeless? Well, that exists, for sure, but to a considerable extent it exists because the homeless can be dangerous or at least unpleasant to be around. And race has very little to do with it.
Everyday, public school children (mostly people of color) endure acts of violence from teacher staff who are mostly white. And we can't forget about the countless amount of cases involving victims of police harassment/brutality and murder. Hardly ever do they print anything about these incidence in the "mainstream" press.
And what are your sources??
So! BeFORE ANYONE CHARACTER ASSASINATES THAT HOMELESS BLACK LADY! YOU ALL have to understand the conditions that lead to that minor incident in the subway this week.
I'll bet the victim doesn't consider it minor.
Rosa,
I agree with another one of your post. But here, your leaning towards the right.
"Bull doo-doo. The vast majority of black people (and Hispanics, and Asians, and other non-whites) are not homeless deranged criminals. They may have to face discrimination - we could argue endlessly about how bad it is - but they lead responsible lives."
First of all, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH! I did not say the vast majority of black people were deranged criminals. Obviously! you haven't read my post clearly. You miss the fact I said this individual was a victim of discrimination which lead to her actions. That most definately doesn't sound like all people of color.
"Wake up. This isn't the Deep South of 1920. Most whites these days do not hate blacks; in fact, except for Upper West Side limousine liberals, most whites have long since come to the realization that blacks are people, just like they themselves are (the limo libs, of course, think blacks are helpless infants). Discrimination against the homeless? Well, that exists, for sure, but to a considerable extent it exists because the homeless can be dangerous or at least unpleasant to be around. And race has very little to do with it."
Ahhhh. I really don't have too much to say to you anymore. Your mind is slanted to the right (code word for racist and pro rich). And, since that's the case, I have nothing to say to you.
It was bad under the Dinkins Administration, but since Guiliania took over, RACISM has gotten much worse. Look how the welfare recipients are treated? And the rise of police brutality? IF you can't see these things (or don't want to see it) , than theres no reason to point it out to you.
It's people like you who make it bad for the majority of people-of-color in this city. Especially if that person is a person of color themself.
Don't even respond, because, it pains me that you will turn around what I was saying. As if I was painting a negative light of every person of color who lives in this city. Indeed sickening.
(Your mind is slanted to the right (code word for racist and pro
rich). And, since that's the case, I have nothing to say to you.)
No matter how far to the right Pete is, if a deranged white person had shouted anti-Black epithets and stabbed a Black women, I doubt he would defend them. Let's not lose sight of that. I think bias attack laws are justified, regardless of who the victim is.
No matter how far to the right Pete is, if a deranged white person had shouted anti-Black epithets and stabbed a Black women, I doubt he would defend them. Let's not lose sight of that. I think bias attack laws are justified, regardless of who the victim is.
Exactly. An assault is an assault, regardless of race. And despite what that N Broadway Line moron thinks, I consider myself politically moderate.
(And despite what that N Broadway Line moron thinks, I consider myself politically moderate.)
You WERE a moderate, but a few years exposure to NYC politicians has turned you into a right winger. Heck, I used to be a liberal until I realized that liberals are now "conservatives" -- ie. our health and social service non-profits are getting all the money coming into NYC, so we don't want any change.
Someone should ask why our "representatives" have gone along with an unfairly low share of school aid for all those years. What a sellout!
"(And despite what that N Broadway Line moron thinks, I consider myself politically moderate.)"
Name calling only dilutes your point. You still haven't spoken directly to this woman situation because you're probably not black or never been homeless. You have no idea what black homeless people go through to speak on this subject. Therefore, I'm asking you to keep your bias to yourself because it only adds insult to injury.
he stupid it was Peter Rosa who said that not Larry Littlefield.
I wish we will stay away from name calling. Aren't we mature adults? I know I am. That's why I didn't call one person a name on this board.
Just because I care about humanity doesn't mean I'm stupid, It means I have commonsense. That's hardly the case with the majority of the citizenry in this town.
While you may not have resorted to childish name calling you have sounded as though anyone who disagrees with you is the devil.
He may have stayed away from crude words, but his concepts are much worse, even if they use mild words.
But what do you expect from someone whose colon is sewn into his mouth?
Someone should ask why our "representatives" have gone along with an unfairly low share of school aid for all those years. What a sellout!
I don't blame the politicians as much as I blame the brain-dead voters who keep voting for them.
It's not that simple Peter RoSA. Look at how the board of election judges are control. They usually favor the incumbents when knocking someone off the ballot.
Ahhhh. I really don't have too much to say to you anymore. Your mind is slanted to the right (code word for racist and pro rich). And, since that's the case, I have nothing to say to you.
Your mind isn't leaning towards the left, it is leaning towards lunacy.
I'm a racistist. You are now #2 on my hit list after Salami of Los Angeles Transit.
It was bad under the Dinkins Administration, but since Guiliania took over, RACISM has gotten much worse. Look how the welfare recipients are treated? And the rise of police brutality? IF you can't see these things (or don't want to see it) , than theres no reason to point it out to you.
The Dinkins administration was worse. Cases of cops shooting civilans were HIGHER, crime was higher, and not to mention there was discrimination too, remember Crown Heights. Of course, to a mental midget like you, it isn't discrimination if it's against the evil white man.
It's people like you who make it bad for the majority of people-of-color in this city. Especially if that person is a person of color themself.
NO! It's race-baiters like you who create animosity and lead to violence in the first place. Here's hoping you're a victim of police brutality or bias, since you're as useful to the world as a mosquito.*
*A mosquito is the single creature that I hate the worst after the racist, ageist and other human hateists. It is my life's dream to work on or contribute to a project that will make these damnable beings extinct.
You are now #2 on my hit list after Salami of Los Angeles Transit
Any chance that they could be the same person?
One of the rare cases where I agree with SBF.
To me this was a crime of violence, and not a bias crime (both liberals and conservatives knee-jerk to this too often). Since the perpetrator IS DERANGED chances are that she would have done this to anyone who asked her the time -- including a black woman. Sure, she wouldn't have used a racial-term, but I'm sure she would have yelled "bitch" or something like that and slashed her just the same. That's what deranged people do -- deranged things, and usually they make no difference whether you are black or white. It has more to do with their "personal space" (mostly in their mind) being violated.
BMTman
As a human race we all make bad decisions in our lives. Especially when we are under extreme amount of stress. Just picture yourself as a homeless person with no place to go, constantly on the move, not knowing where your next meal will come from. That's my point, you don't know what your reaction will be.
Calling someone deranged does not address what lead to her stabbing the white female. First, we got to look at how she got homeless, why wasn't the system there for her, and what lead to the incident. Was the woman (who was stabbed) nasty in her approach in other words.
Considering the climate in New York City, many people are very rude here. That alone could have resulted in the homeless woman stabbing her victim.
I'm not homeless, but everyday I deal with negative attitudes from people who never saw me before. These attitudes include frowning, rolling of eyes, clearing thoats, coughing, staring, and other negative body languages.
You can't just call someone deranged without looking at these and other factors. Maybe the woman ran into a person ealier who turned her day upside down. Or maybe she tried to seek help and was turned down by someone who resemble the woman she stabbed.
It's not right to stab anyone. But it's not right to pass judgement without looking at every aspect of this homeless woman's case.
The biggest problem with Americans today is their oppinions are shape by what they watch on television and read in the newspapers. So it's no wonder these oppinions are based on friction and untruths.
What I'm saying, America is a very controlled society. People here have tunnel version. Just talk to the Europeans, Africans, and individuals from Asian. There minds tend to be more open when it comes to seeking the truth about a situation.
Also, this is a race base country. Very many whites take the side of white regardless of whether the actions are good or bad. If the situation was turned around, the response will be a lot different. I remember a cause a while back of a white guy chasing a black man with a gun in New York City Subways. The media coverage was very low. Nobody was white seem to care about the black guy who's life was in jeopardy.
Time after time, these double standards go unchallenged. And they go unchallenged because the people who own the media are of a white hue. There minds are cloughed with the same lies as the people they report to.
"I remember a cause a while back of a white guy chasing a black man with a gun in New York City Subways. The media coverage was very low. Nobody was white seem to care about the black guy who's life was in jeopardy."
Was he Shot? if not thats why no one care it has nothing to do with race. no one care about almost shotings unless it is someone well known.
I'm not homeless, but everyday I deal with negative attitudes from people who never saw me before. These attitudes include frowning, rolling of eyes, clearing thoats, coughing, staring, and other negative body languages.
Then there's obviously something very weird about you. Maybe it's the way your knuckles drag on the ground.
peter... is this really the first time you've ever heard a black person report the suspicion and fear that white people direct to people of color?... if it is, i suppose you are equally unlikely to understand how offensive and charged your use of "knuckledragging" and train dude's use of the expression are... i've never called him on his use of it and i should have...
n broadway line... i think those in power are laughing their asses off watching the slashing become a white black issue here... i am sorry to say that you are not going to enlighten too many people here or in this society... be comforted in knowing that the more negative people's responses are, the closer to the truth the words have struck...
Thanks heypaul. Funny, the very same people who is calling this woman a racist, is racist themselves. God bless...
Funny, the very same people who is calling this woman a racist, is racist themselves.
You idiot, I didn't call the attacker a racist. She was obviously demented, race had little if anything to do with her crime (and, for the record, I am opposed to so-called "hate crimes" legislation). It was you who brought race into the matter, as a hopelessly feeble attempt at justifying her actions.
"justifying her actions"
Hmmmmmm. I wasn't justifying her actions. What I was saying, was, if she would have gotten the help she needed, the incident would have never occur.
Plenty of times I said what she did was wrong. But if an individual is neglected, someone else is responsible as well.
Believe it or not (you might protest this), the government is responsible for the welfare of its citizenry. When someone falls under, it is the government responsibility to pick them back up. That's why we pay all these taxes so these services are enforced.
Unfortunately, over the past 20 years, the government has been very neglectful to it citizenry. For instance, look at all the programs that was cut back since the early 70's? And we can't forget the welfare "reform" act that was cut by the one and only President Clinton.
Government is moving to the right (BUSH, CLINTON,Guiliani,Pataki). As a result, many citizens who needs help aren't getting it.
Locking up homeless people isn't the answer. What these (we) people need is basic services that will stimulate personal growth. That ain't happening under this current administration even though there was a 2 billion dollar surplus 2 years ago.
Then the government has a nerve to pass laws against the "mental ill. The same government who cut these safety net programs that kept people (YES PEOPLE -NOT MENTALLY ILL OR HOMELESS) out of trouble.
Good point N.
One of the things that doesn't get pointed out often enough is that BILL CLINTON AIN'T A LIBERAL!
His policies -- both as President and as Governor of Arkansas -- were anything but liberal (ever been to Arkansas lately? There's nothing liberal about that State). The guy has a conservative voting record in both offices.
What burns conservative Republicans so much is that Clinton did alot of what they wanted to do themselves. But because it happenned under a Democrat (percieved as a liberal) they tried everything they could to unseat him and failed.
BMTman
I hate to admit it but you are right. I disliked Clinton more for his character than his policies, but we were too anxious to go for his throat. And Clinton was not a liberal. Good show. Hey we've both agreed with one another today. A sign of a reproachment ahead?
I disliked Clinton more for his character than his policies
Of course, it was Clinton's character that I liked, since he refused to be imprisoned by his sham political marriage. In real life, these people would be divorced long ago. For some reason Americans want a "family man" in the White House. I personally, do not care. Monogamy isn't a trait that I think should be required of a head of state.
Yes, you make some good points, Pork.
If you look close enough to the Bill/Hillary marriage it does appear to be more of a 'marriage of convenience' or 'using each other' rather than a traditional union. Bill and Hillary's personal politics are close to 180 degrees apart (he's a conservative and she's a liberal). I'm sure early on in their relationship they knew that they could use each other as political 'stepping stones' to their desired 'thrones'.
BMTman
BMT
"What burns conservative Republicans so much is that Clinton did alot of what they wanted to do themselves. But because it happenned under a Democrat (percieved as a liberal) they tried everything they could to unseat him and failed."
Absolutely!
"BILL CLINTON AIN'T A LIBERAL!"
He is worst type of pol. on who will do anything to get elected.
[He is worst type of pol. on who will do anything to get elected]
True, but that is what a Career Politican is all about.
For instance, if you are a student of politics you'd realize that Bill Clinton was A MASTER POLITICAN. Anyone wanting to go into that 'field of endeavour' would be wise to study Clinton's political life.
BMTman
What I was saying, was, if she would have gotten the help she needed, the incident would have never occur.
You're assuming that she wanted to be helped. Many homeless people are very suspicious of others (no doubt justified, to some extent), not to mention that they're sometimes off in worlds of their own. Outreach people can't just go up to homeless people and offer shelter or other help, not if they expect to do any good; it often takes quite a bit of persuasion and even winning the person's trust.
Before she was homeless ROSA.
NO the government should cut taxes and allow people to create their own safty net.
NO the government should cut taxes and allow people to create their own safty net.
APIGS!
peter... is this really the first time you've ever heard a black person report the suspicion and fear that white people direct to people of color?... if it is, i suppose you are equally unlikely to understand how offensive and charged your use of "knuckledragging" and train dude's use of the expression are... i've never called him on his use of it and i should have...
Oh please, we're talking about New York in 2001, a very multiracial place. That "suspicion and fear" is largely gone.
And I like my "knuckledragging" expression. N Broadway Line deserves every bit of it.
>>>And I like my "knuckledragging" expression. N Broadway Line deserves every bit of it.
Peter:
Wow! It takes a lot to get heypaul, of all people, to respond with a serious (rather than humorous) post of that nature. It is most unusual, from what I have seen. I can't remember that last time he responded like that.
N Bway Line may be wrong in some of his statements, but calling him a "knuckledragger", in other words an ape, has very serious racial implications in a society where (despite NYC being multiracial) blacks and other minorities are still called mentally inferior and not fully human by a very vocal and active racist segment of society. It really does makes you appear very racially inflammatory, and I know from your previous postings, that you usually are not.
>>>That "suspicion and fear" is largely gone.
Well, I would like to believe it is. Concerning blacks: even in large cities with sbustantial populations of blacks and even a few black elected officials, the local police forces continue to racially profile minorities - especially black men.
-cordially,
turnstiles.
N Bway Line may be wrong in some of his statements, but calling him a "knuckledragger", in other words an ape, has very serious racial implications in a society where (despite NYC being multiracial) blacks and other minorities are still called mentally inferior and not fully human by a very vocal and active racist segment of society. It really does makes you appear very racially inflammatory, and I know from your previous postings, that you usually are not.
An idiot is an idiot, and an ape's an ape, regardless of race. I am not going to tiptoe around and avoid calling him an idiot and an ape just because some people attach racial elements to statements like that. It's not my intention to add a racial element - because there IS none - and therefore I'll say what I want. I don't particularly care what race N Broadway Line is. But his lamebrain excuse-making for the 34th street slashing shows that he's scarcely a member of the human race.
Thanks Heypaul and turnstile for your oppinions. I didn't mean to make it seem I didn't care about the white woman. Actually my business partner is white female and if something happen to her I will be extremely upset about it. I will also be as supportive as possible as I would a strange who might be in trouble. But the reality is, the woman was neglected herself and if she would've received help earlier, this incident would have never happened.
Nice post from heypaul.
I nominate you as the SubTalk Moderator...:-)
BMTman
I remember a cause a while back of a white guy chasing a black man with a gun in New York City Subways. The media coverage was very low. Nobody was white seem to care about the black guy who's life was in jeopardy.
I guess nobody cared about the Howard Beach incident in 1988(?), where a black man was killed by the Belt Parkway thanks to some white people. I mean they made a movie out of it!
Because the victim was a 48-year old, apparently native New Yorker, it probably won't get that much play in the media after a day or so.
If the victim were a female Caucasian twentysomething who came to New York from rural America (see Amy Watkins, Kendra Webdale, Nicole Barrett, Tiffany Goldberg) or a tourist (see Brian Watkins), the story would be in Time and Newsweek with many inferences that New York City is out of control, there'd be screams of outrage from politicians and clergy, and the mayor and police commissioner would have to hold press conferences.
After the slaying of Ms. Watkins, former commissioner Howard Safir was quoted as saying that the story of a young woman from Kansas being murdered in New York is terrible because it doesn't portray the city in a favorable light. Does that somehow imply that if a male, or person of color, or lifelong New Yorker (or all of the above?) were murdered, it's any less terrible?
Any murder is tragic. Apparently not all murders are regarded with the same attention. Likewise random attacks.
Lately the homeless seem to be taking over the whole 34th street area.
The 34th street BDFQNR station has alot of them.
Alot of homeless camp out in the passageway between the PATH and Mall entrance (on C1) and the northern mezzanine of the 34th street subway station. I used to feel safe walking through there, but I really don't anymore.
"Lately the homeless seem to be taking over the whole 34th street area."
I hate when people say that the homeless is taking over. The homeless is homeless because this government fails to provide adequate housing for everyone regardless of race.
I hate when people say that the homeless is taking over. The homeless is homeless because this government fails to provide
adequate housing for everyone regardless of race.
If they have some mental disorder then the government should provide housing if not they shouldn't they are homeless by choice.
I hate when people say that the homeless is taking over. The homeless is homeless because this government fails to provide adequate housing for everyone regardless of race.
Several factors have contributed to the rise in homelessness: drug abuse, alcohol abuse, de-institutionalization of the mentally ill and mentally retarded, repeal of vagrancy laws, breakdown of family ties, and probably other things too. Lack of housing is a very small part. And, unfortunately, all too many of the homeless wind up in the subway.
I'm about feed up with all the bias on this board concerning this homeless black woman! Not once did anyone mentioned the pain and agony this individual had to endure her hold life!!! Why is that saved for whites when they participate in acts of violence? Regularly the media say they come from disfunctioning families and, or, are mentally ill. This is definately a double standard!
I agree this woman needs help. But that could have happen a long time ago before this incident occur. If she, as well as others like her, didn't endure so much discrimination earlier, BELIEVE ME, this incident would have never happen.
What we need to do is provide more affordable housing and services in the community that will trickle down to everyone! Instead of complaining....
I'm about feed up with all the bias on this board concerning this homeless black woman!
I'm about sick of all this "it's society's fault" crap coming from you.
Not once did anyone mentioned the pain and agony this individual had to endure her hold life!!!
Tell me, was the person who was slashed the cause of this agony? Did she even work for an organization that screwed over this homeless woman? Or was it only because of the melanin composition (or lack thereof) of her epidermic cells?
Maybe she should have taken out this pain on someone, but don't you think it should be someone who is actually the cause of her pain. Or are you one of those FOOLS who believes that every white person is the enemy of every black person?
Why is that saved for whites when they participate in acts of violence? Regularly the media say they come from disfunctioning families and, or, are mentally ill. This is definately a double standard!
No it isn't. How do you even know if this woman is from a bad family?
You just cloud your mind to block out every instance of a white person being convicted of a hate crime but not a victim of anything else.
Or maybe you don't, and you're just harmed by your lack of a functioning brain.
PORK: THE OTHER WHITE PREJUDICE HATER
We know you're being fair about it. I agree that this woman had a deep prejudice against white people, otherwise she wouldn't have shouted those nasty words before slashing an innocent victim. What Broadway was trying to do, however, was try to reason why she might have gone over the edge. It wasn't right what she did and she should answer for that, but the attack did not happen in a vacuum. I believe Broadway was trying to explain it that way.
Thanks SEABEACH for understanding some of my points. God bless...
>>> What Broadway was trying to do, however, was try to reason why she might have gone over the edge. <<<
If only that were true. Broadway is not speculating on why she might have gone over the edge. He is stating as a fact with no knowledge of the individual, that her condition was caused by white racist society. He ignores the possibility that she had some metal condition caused by a chemical imbalance in her brain, or that perhaps her condition was caused by an inter-personal relationship with members of her own family, or any other cause.
This makes him a bigot.
Tom
We have these lines yet to do for NJT:
Boonton from Hoboken to MidTOWN Direct merge.
Gladstone from Gladston to merge at Summit.
Montclair
port jervis
Pascack valley
See your name in lights! become world renown! Volunteer today!
For the Branford group! We also need to cover the Shore Line East. I can do New Haven since I will be doing the New Haven Metro North. Hwoever, due to low service I can not do the Shore Line. See your name in lights! Volunteer today!!
What are you doing?
I am doing:
Northeast Corridor
North Jersey Coast
MidTOWN Direct
New Haven Line and the three branches of this line
ridding them??
mapping them??
photographing them???
What?
We need a station-by-station account of these lines. It can be done in several ways:
1- Ride the line
2- Tail the line by car. Drive to a station, do a secription and go to the next station and repeat.
3- A combination of the two.
You can also take photos either from the train or on the platform if you use an automobile.
You can either work alone or as a team. I am not asking for you to get off a train and pay a second fare
So far we have volunteers for these projects:
NOrth Jersey Coast Line Photos
Montclair Branch including photos
Thansk to those. We still have Boonton, Gladstone, Port Jervis, Pascacck Valley and Main/Bergen on NJT plus SHore Line East.
e-mail me off-site if you'd liek to volunteer. See your name in lights and knwo you made a major contribution to the site!
As an example, I am putting the finishing touches on an account of Denver's light rail line (it really is almost finished!). There is, or was, supposed to be a groundbreaking ceremony this week for the Central Platte Valley Spur, which I will check into.
Thank you, Steve B! I look forward tothe report and your next visit to NYC
As promised, I checked into the groundbreaking story and found it in Friday's edition of the Rocky Mountain News. Ground was broken on Thursday the 25th. Construction will begin next month, and completion is slated for March of next year. They finally reached a settlement on Union Station, and the line will terminate there. Those six LRVs which were ordered last February for service on the new spur should be delivered just in time for its opening.
Hello!
Be sure to watch the History Channel as they look at the making of the French Connection, tonight at 9 ET on the History Channel. The show will be repeated, visit historychannel.com for further TV listings.
The chase scene under the West End line will be discussed with Gene Hackman, and the real Popeye Doyle and Sonny Grosso.
You don't want to miss this show.
Chow!
you mean Ciao or chow down??
Chow is phonetic for Ciao, of course you are more than welcome to Chow or Ciao down during the show.
Chow! Ciao! for now!
While driving into work this morning, they mentioned on the Local DC news, that the new Green Line Extension is such a success, and the trains are so crowded, that they need to add more trains for service, but they can t because they are very short of cars.
The Green Line stations has free parking just to get the people to ride it. Guess what, Blue Line riders are driving to a Green Line Station to park for free.
Projected six month growth rate was met in less than a week.
Problem solved. Charge for the parking.
And discourage Southeast PG and Charles Counties from using Metro?
The Washington Post and Channel 4 News says because most of the people use the Blue line now use the green line because parking is free. They can give free parking to blue line stations until the freebee runs out
Or make the other lots free :)
Don't worry about it. This period is the promotion period to encourage the surrounding area people to take Metrorail. The parking lots will be charged in a later date.
Chaohwa
Well that is typical of Federal Planning. In DC, they charge SO MUCH for a ride in the first place the parking should be free (or cheap) to encourage use. Look at how much NYC use has gone up with the MetroCard Passes, which is NY's equivalent of free parking. Increase use increases profits and LOWER Prices (if not for the ride, then for the parking). I found that using the MEtro for a whole family so expensive, it is easier to drive in ..... that is NOT the case in NY or Boston.
Since when does Metro charge 2.50 one way at all times per person? They do it in Boston. You pay a dollar on the way out (Riverside Line).
The average tourist family will encounter one rush hour per weekday. Most go in after 9:30 and would only deal with the afternoon rush which is less crowded and chaotic.
You could also get a one day pass.
The Washington Post Article was really odd. They said something about turning trains around at Gallery Place possibly from Branch Avenue. If it was the planning employee who said this, he is really not that smart or qualified for his job because it is NOT POSSIBLE to turn trains at Gallery on either level without tying up alot of traffic. When the yellow line terminated there, trains ran manually at a maximum speed of 15 MPH from just north of L'Enfant Plaza to the bumper at Gallery. It was like the SEPTA R1 towards the airport. What ever track you enter on, you will double back on. You must run the trains to Mount Vernon Square to turn them around without creating backups. One of the things that has occured to me is a lack of turnarounds on the green line and how some genius should have put in pocket tracks at Anacostia, U Street, and Fort Totten. The other one is Metro should encourage people who are going from Waterfront to other green line stations to take the 70 or 71 buses and for people at Navy Yard to take the M22 or N22 (that new bus) to Potomac Avenue or Eastern Market (wherever it goes) and take the blue and orange lines. From Anacostia, take the P1, P2, or P6. The P6 is great if you are going to Judicuary Square, it is a one seat ride to there while the subway is two seats.
Its going to be a disaster if they decide to keep taking cars off of other lines or depleting their reserve fleet. Too bad they can't temporarily have the C11 extend itself from Branch Ave. to Federal Center like it used to and take some of the extra passengers with it, or have some of the other buses go back to Potomac Ave, at least until they get the rail car situation settled.
The C11 passengers ride free until tomorrow with their 28 day passes.
I am sure the planning department will want to redo all the bus routes that now go to Branch or any other stations.
Maybe some geniuses who want to take Metro will go ride the blue line until all the blue line folks wanting free rides go back to their own turf.
My problem is with the orange Line, I never could find a place to park, unless I go all the way to Balston and pay a fortune. Even the Meters from E Falls Church West are full after 10AM
Is Queens becoming the new target for street gangs? Flushing seems to be a hot spot mostly after school.
[Is Queens becoming the new target for street gangs? Flushing seems to be a hot spot mostly after school.]
How do you know? Have you been hanging out in Flushing lately?
BMTman
Perhaps it's me, but he seems to dwell on the negative points of NYC. Why is that?
-Stef
Hey, Stef. You have a point there...
BTW, check your email by tomorrow morning. You'll find some things of interest...
later.
BMTman
Stef has a valid point! There is crime anywhere, any city. You can even get killed in your own home. No where do I see posts telling people dont live in a home!
People just enjoy picking on the subway. If NYC did not have the subway then they'd gripe about the bus or parks or some other whipping post. Sure, the subway can be improved but so cAn any city.
I've been lucky. I run into groups of young people on the subway, but some have actually given up their railfan window to me and have been generally friendly. Certainly there are wise guys and some punks who ride the subway to cause trouble, but sometimes those of us who worry about these guys give off negative vibes and act like all young people are a bunch of miscreants. A smile, a friendly greeting can go a long way. I've actually struck up friendly conversations with many young men on the subway. Some people on this site think the NY subway is a haven to thieves and bums. I have not found this to be true at all.
Again, maybe I've just been lucky.
I think crime on the subway is greatly exagerated, at least with regard to daytime hours.
Andrew :-)
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I haven't found that many groups of people in the subways when I ride them. Once in a while you'll find someone that you don't like the looks of. Often times when I ride the subway I often wear jeans and a denim jacket unless it's too warm so I wear shorts and a short sleeved shirt in the warmer weather. If it is cold out I'll wear a winter jacket. I generally make sure that I don't look like an attictive target. With my beard which isn't kept too neat but not like that of a bum I've scared a few people away from me on the subway.
BMTJeff
The 7 line really doesn't have many groups of teens riding. It's around the Main street station that they loiter.
One should be careful on the 14th St. Canarsie line which is the "L" train because one time I rode it back in 1993 there were some people on it that I didn't like the looks of. Now it might be somewhat better. With the new cars arriving eventually it may become even less attractive for nefarious people.
BMTJeff
Some people on this site think the NY subway is a haven to thieves and bums.
Again you're confusing this site with the outside world.
My message disappeared.
Here it is to the best of my recollection:
He may have been hanging out with John (of Sea Cliff).
I don't know if these youth gangs are so bad, but they're most likely unfairly demonized as most youth are these days.
Hehehe. Good one! :-0
[I don't know if these youth gangs are so bad, but they're most likely unfairly demonized as most youth are these days.]
True. Additionaly, alot of people might think this is trivial, but there are loads of folks (both young and old), who -- if they see more than four or five teenagers hanging out -- often label that group a 'gang' (whether or not they are just talking amongst themselves or 'being rowdy'). It's wrong and is based solely on stereotyping.
BMTman
I recently saw a pack of Grey Panthers, noisely gathered together, prepareing to spend their childrens and Grandchildrens inheritance.
Wild and unruly actions crosses all age boundries!
avid
I have been saying this for months now. Flushing has alot of teen gangs, especially in the late afternoon.
Queens seems to be a real hotbed for gang activity lately.
Watch what you say John, you might offend some people here!!!
Thats Garbage, if there are kids in the nighborhood after school or in the trains THAT DONT MEAN THERE IS GANG ACTIVITY there. Old Bafoon
SEVEN GCW
[Thats Garbage, if there are kids in the nighborhood after school or in the trains THAT DONT MEAN THERE IS GANG ACTIVITY there]
Making allowances for rhetorical exaggeration, this is a good point. The original posting didn't explain why groups of teenagers traveling together have to be characterized as "gangs." These sightings seem to be in the late afternoon, apparently after school hours. There is not question that kids getting out of school show a lot of exuberance. You can go to any station near a high school, even prestige and college-prep schools, and you will see this.
There was an article in the Washington Post a couple of years back that was very instructive in this regard. The article that the very presence of such exuberant teenagers geting out of school and pouring into the Metro in loud noisy numbers proved very disconcerting to other passengers "of a different generation." Problems in interpretation of body language between the two generational groups further exacerbates. It was the same back when those of my generation rode the # 4 each afternoon; we were the same way and couldn't figure out why reactions were so hostile when we were just "letting off steam."
One other point. One poster was right about taking the initiative and being friendly and striking up conversations. The real danger may very well be from a lone mugger than from a "gang" (though I am aware, of course, that generatlizations can be dangerous). If a "gang" gets on board your car, you may definitely have a problem if you are another teenager also traveling with a group of peers that may look like a "gang." In fact, in such a situation, a little old lade traveling by herself may be the safest of all.
Just testing sumtin' out. Thanx.
blahblahblah
You know you could use "preview" instead of actually posting. Or just wait till you have something to actually say.
Hey ... dumb question time as long as we're sitting on siding here. Does this site support NNTP access or is it just the web access?
I dabbled with NNTP a long time ago... but no, there's no NTTP interface to the webboard.
What is NNTP?
From whatis.com:
NNTP (Network News Transfer Protocol) is the predominant protocol used by computers (client/server) for managing the notes posted on Usenet newsgroup. NNTP replaced the original Usenet protocol, UNIX-to-UNIX Copy Protocol (UUCP) some time ago. NNTP servers manage the global network of collected Usenet newsgroups and include the server at your Internet access provider. An NNTP client is included as part of a Netscape, Internet Explorer, Opera, or other Web browser or you may use a separate client program called a newsreader.
Shawn.
Ah well, just figured I'd ask. And yes, doing both can be a real pain in the butt ...
Found it while looking at the Paris Metro website. It'll give you directions on subway systems in over 60 cities.
subwaynavigator
That site is listed among the NYC Transit Related links on this website. Subtalkers need to explore the rest of this site!
It's a little outdated, but very cool nonetheless. I found it a while ago through the Transfer Station on this site, though.
It is a cool site, but the AI could use a little tweaking. It seems to rely on the absolute shortest distance between 2 points, but in the case of Philadelphia it will treat an hourly (or less) commuter line the same as light rail or subway; and it also seems to assume that transfers take no time.
I've realized that. There is no difference between Olney on the R8 and BSS and some other station on the Harlem and Port Jervis Metro-North lines.
It badly needs an update. Try entering "Parkside Avenue" in one input, and "Winthrop Street" in the other and compute the route. It says to take the D to Atlantic Avenue and transfer to the 5. A shorter way would be to take the D to Prospect Pk, take the S to Botanic Gardens, then take the 2 to Winthrop.
Got an erroneous error message about 4 minutes ago saying that an existing post did not exist when I clicked on it from the index.
Whah Happen?
I restarted the database server briefly.
Thanks for the info. For a minute there, I thought there was a real problem.
I had the same problem, thanks for the info.
Personal preference is such stuff be done weekends or late at night but I have my own site and life and know not everything can wait.
You have to be kidding me.
When you guys are paying customers then I'll consider that.
Right now you guys get things done when I have time to do them.
I can't believe you even posted that.
The NYCT Web site says that the F train diversion into the 63rd street tunnel begins at 10pm. Does anyone know exactly what time the first diversion is scheduled to leave from Roosevelt and Rock Center? I'm in NYC for Transit and Weather Together this afternoon and tomorrow afternoon... so I hope to ride it tonight.
The notice also says that the E is on the R line; I assume it goes through the 60th street tube, correct?
Well.... I was on the 10:16 southbound F out of Roosevelt. It made local stops to 36th. Entering 36th, I saw a platform conductor at the head end of the platform. From the partially open motorman's cab door I could hear him say on the radio, "Queensboro Master Tower, I have a Fox entering 36th Street -- line him up!" And the home signal went from red/red to green/yellow for my first ride through the new connector. Announcements on board my train and on the platforms were very informative (for those who chose to listen).
Other notable sightings this evening:
A diesel-drawn work train came through the northbound F track at Rock Center, with a female engineer.
NO announcements at Rock Center on the northbound platform telling people the F was diverted. If they didn't read the signs...
The Mets-Bird train still running on the 7 Express.
You would think that with all the high-tech signal equipment in the new master tower they wouldn't need to post a lookout with a hand held radio to watch for F trains coming in to 36th Street.
Maybe that's part of the "punch list" work that Bill from Maspeth mentioned.
YUP, the punch boxes aren't working yet. They are there though...
Yes. If the E stops at Queens Plaza, as they say, then it would have to go through 60th.
:-) Andrew
Great article in the Star Ledger commemorating the 50th anniversary of the wreck of the "Broker" in 1951. I wonder what are the chances of a similar disaster occurring today?
The Wreck of the Broker
I wonder what are the chances of a similar disaster occurring today?
Simple; all it would take is an engineer going too fast around a curve (or a T/O going too fast over a switch, as in 1991).
As a career motorman and engineer my opinion is having unflagged slow orders STINKS. I don't know if the BNSF still does it..they did when I was a brakeman for them [BN] if the location can be defined by a landmark such as "west switch Townsend". We ran one one night, luckily only doing 50 or so thru a 40 mile zone; I forgot and so did the engineer. [I never was an engineer on the BN]
When Montana Rail Link took over the line [and I became an engineer a year later] I howled at a Saftey Meeeting that this was a bad practice and if I recall the practice was modified to have flags for all slow orders except last minute matters like somebody ahead of you reporting a rough piece of track, where flags couldn't be put up in time. It is too easy to forget..and like anybody else [yes shame on us] we could do a job by instinct and forget..or ..better quit while I'm ahead!
So many parallels to the Malbone St Wreck .. strike, engineer going too fast, indictments, charges dropped ....
Eerie.
And it did happen again in 1991 at Union Square.
--Mark
PATH fares will be $1.50 one way. With discounts as low as $1.20. Seniors will pay $1.00. I expect more info in tomorrow's papers.
Now all we need is for them to use MetroCard instead and allow free walking transfer to the subway at WTC, Christopher(to the 1 train, 14th(to F,L,1,2,3_ and 33rd(B,D,F,Q,N,R)
To the car people- yes, Tolls will go up[ but not full amount and Staten Island keeps their big break. I expect more of that in thew pApers too.
The important thing is NJ still has a better deal than NY, unless the PA plans more investments in NYC.
n/t
9/x
Organization for the Improvement of Northern Kentucky. Join Today!
If you didn't figure out why I put 9/x in response to Jersey Mike's n/t, then do this:
Look out into the street, you're looking through something. Look into the computer, you see the same thing.
Don't do the above if you are a Mac user.
n/t > 9/x
ME > n/t
2000 > ME?
9x=series
NT=series/parallel
2000=parallel
ME=BIE
'nuff said. :)
I don't think so. Me works a lot better than 95 ever did. It's also more of an upgrade over 98 than 98 was over 95 (almost all of 98s features were downloadable for free onto 95).
LOL.
3/1
And you stole Selkirk's line, BTW
Are those damned cows loose on the line again?!?! Reset that 3rd rail breaker!
tres, uno.
Am I missing something?
tres, uno.
Am I missing something?
m/s, before 9/x, and it wasn't an o/s. The hesitations in the subject line should be another hint.
Here are stories in the Times and the Daily News.
And here's a later, more comprehensive, story in the Star-Ledger.
Considering the refusal on the part of both the PA and MTA to get some kind of SI-NJ mass-transit into existence, those who commute between the two deserve the break.
-Hank
*Considering the refusal on the part of both the PA and MTA to get some kind of SI-NJ mass-transit into existence, those who commute between the two deserve the break.)
But only, one presumes, if they live on Staten Island, like the Verranzano Toll break which does not apply to Brooklynites?
I'm amazed no one has thought to charge $10 for the ferry, but nothing if you are a Staten Island resident. Or to take away the property tax break on 1-4 family houses in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx, limiting it to Staten Island. And is it really fair that Staten Islanders pay the same water and sewer rates as people in Brooklyn? They'll have to get on that.
That's starting to border on the absurd. Staten Island doesn't have any real transit accessibility. You NEED a car out here. Additionally, those who commute from Staten Island to Queens or Brooklyn have no options. I tried commuting to my office once, it took nearly 3 hours. Sorry, my time is worth a hell of a lot more to me. And with days that may end at 8 or 9 pm, transit is even less of an option. Moving could be an option, but how many of us can afford to do so?
-Hank
(That's starting to border on the absurd.)
I'm glad you figured out I was kidding. Lots of folks in the Forgotton Borough would have been saying "Yeah, it's about time we got our due."
Some people in Brooklyn and Queens work in Staten Island and should get the discount because the lack of transit options works both ways.
BETTER IDEA: Abolish the toll on the Verazanno Bridge, along with the Whitestone, Throgs Neck, Triborough from Queens to Bronx and the Rockaway bridges.
Implement tolls on all East River crossings instead.
Implement tolls on all East River crossings instead.
I don't know much about New York but I know you can't just thorow but toll boths whereever you mant toll boths take up much more space then roads would without them. that is the reason why there won't be tolls on the big dig.
At this point, they would simply install gantrys with EZPass readers, and video equipment to catch violators. Cash payers would be restricted to the tunnels and the Triboro.
-Hank
See topic
<a href="http://www.nycsubway.org">NYC Subway Resources</a>
=
NYC Subway Resources
Thanks
i finally took an uptown R train past canal street and saw the work being done at Prince, 8th, 23rd and 28th and i am amazed that the original tile is in such beautiful shape. my question is, will they keep the old tile or put up something new? ugh that 70's tile job that was up was so hideous. also doe anyone know what happened to all the tiles at the 86th street R station in brooklyn? both walls have NO tile left and there is a disgusting paint job with half green and half brown walls. a very unsightly paint scheme, especially at 6:20 in the morning when you are still half-asleep and going to work.
later,
tim
They'll probably do what they did at Canal and IND station rehabs, new tile goes up which looks like the old tile. They might add a color band to the lower half of the wall, pure white makes dirt look more noticeable. They may not want to redo the mosaics, so they'll leave them in place and clean them up.
Yes, it is likely they will scrub the heck out of the friezes and tablets and place new white tile over the old, like they did at 5th Avenue further up the Broadway Line; this will give the tablets a slightly recessed look. They may also add a footer like they did at Canal Street.
As for 86th Street - the ORIGINAL tile was just plain white; a small swatch of it is visible at the north end of the station. It fit into the recesses of the wall. A water main break caused much of it to fall and prompted the TA to take the rest of it down. Today's tilesmithing technology has given rise to "panel tile", which can be seen in many places (i.e. Canal St IND, Fulton St BMT, 207th St IND, 7th Avenue IND). The nature of this wall at 86th Street may force rehabilitators to go for panel tile; they can mount the studs outside the concaves and put the aluminum laths up over it all, the panels go right onto the laths; the studs hold everything up.
SUGGESTIONS for the designers, to get the frieze and tablets right they HAVE to do the following: a) go upstairs to the mezzanine and make drawings/rubbings/tracings of the globe designs, and make note of the proper colors (i.e. the round center of the globe would be both yellow AND orange); and b) go to 95th Street or any other stop with them and make drawings of the tablets, again making note of the proper colors. They should NOT use the design on the outside of the stairwell wall as a guide; it's wrong, doesn't have the proper colors or the proper design elements. It's close, but it is no cigar.
wayne
I basically don't think they should revive the original if it's gone, unless it was something extremely exceptional.
The mezzanine should be consistent with the platform area, but otherwise they should do something completely new and innovative like Herald Square.
There should be more Herald Squares, and I'm sure it created an air of unity to what would have remained just a pair of separate stations, linked only by their different floors… touching.
The 63st connector cannot be used for emergency reroutes, by order of the MTA it is closed when the F is not scheduled to run through (the red lights are on the tracks). Under normal circumstances, this is fine. But they overlooked one thing: QUEENS PLAZA GOT NO SWITCHES! Chaos could happen at any moment. But nothing happened.
Until today. An R goes BIE southbound at Lex. Order from command, R trains run via 6th. Thing is, no one remembered about this until several Rs had already passed Roosevelt! Finally, Rs get sent onto 3 track at Roosevelt. Things are fine except for the Rs already past that point, they've no where to go. Wait a minute, what about the innocent G? It has NOTHING to do with this mess, yet is delayed extensively since it must be on the local track after Roosevelt. (The switch from express to local south of Queens Plaza I believe is not attached to any tower at the moment, anyway there's an R blocking the track). I don't know how long this lasted, but say this or a similar problem were to happen for a while. Well, if the G is delayed east of Roosevelt, that screws the ENTIRE QUEENS LOCAL! The R could be sent express from 71/Continental, and Gs would have to be stored in Jamaica yard to keep them from blocking up any more trackage.
Had the connector been open, the Rs could have gone to B'way quite easily.
Going the other way, if anything bad happens west of (and including) Roosevelt on the express, the E and F INSTANTANEOUSLY grind to a halt. On the local the R and G would have a slower death, but in both cases trains would pile up all over, all because the TA closed the connector and removed Queens Plaza's vital switches simultaneously. The NYC subway CANNOT SURVIVE with long stretches of track without simple alternate routings, especially sections with 30TPH. When the Manny B is out, B and D end up running on the Culver, sometimes from 8th ave and through Cranberry! The Q at least can use B'way. The connector should have been left open until QPs switches were fully replaced, a disaster is just waiting to happen.
Wow, it is amazing how stupid the MTA is.
You are correct in saying that operational flexiblity is a big problem right now. Due to a daytime G.O., the tracks to/from 21st St. (T1 & T2) are out of service from 6 AM to 9 PM Monday thru Friday. Sorry,the duration of this has escaped my mind at the moment. It said the reason is for "Punch List Work." I don't know what this entails, sorry. It just goes back to what we lament time and time again: too many G.O.'s going on at the same time. The msot disturbing thing: that diamond crossover between D1 & D3 was jsut put in a couple of years ago and is being torn up. Seems there is a water seepage problem there.
I put it in, it comes back out and turnstile says 00 trips remaining. Checking it at 2 balance readers, one said INVALID CARD, the other said PASS VALID 12/8/00 (something like that). I tempted fate and tried it in a turnstile, CARD CAPTURED | INVALID.
How many rides were supposed to be left?
Next time you think your card has become defective, use the pax assistance intercom. Before you let the turnstile slurp up the card. It worked for me.
Let me guess - the turnstile at Grove Street nearest the newsstand? I've reported it for bad manners a number of times. I'm not sure how the monthly cards work, but for regular cards, the turnstile readers will deduct a fare, say "card expired" and not let you in. So it's a *bad* idea to keep trying if you know the card isn't expired - get on the assistance phone and get buzzed in.
It did let me in and deducted the fare, but gave me back the card even though there were no uses left. When I tried to use it again later on, it was captured. It was one of the turnstiles at Hoboken, I wish I could remember which so I could get to keep another one. Give the empty card to a friend and see how he reacts when the turnstile keeps it but doesn't let him in.
I think I now know why. The receptacle that stores the empty cards probably was full.
Riding the 7 train home I've noticed several times that throughout the line is a second set of rails between the main two, whose distance apart varies almost constantly. Also, sometimes there are none, one or two.
I'm baffled as to their purpose. The only idea I can come up with is that perhaps since the inner rails get very close to the outer rails on curves (especially between 33rd and QP) that maybe the inner rails are to keep the flanges from slipping off?
Help?
Dan
I don't know. I'm no engineer. But I have heard that extra rails are sometimes used on elevated lines to prevent a derailment.
Andrew :-)
Not prevent them, but to help keep the train on the trestle/viaduct/bridge/whatever.
I should have mentioned that it's to prevent it from falling down after a derailment.
That's a silly theory.
Flanges are cast with the wheel. The flange would only come apart if the whole wheel (hard steel) would shatter into pieces.
Because of the nature of curves on inside flanges, the flanges and wheels are only pushed INTO the axle on a curve. Imagine outer flanges and how they would interact with the rails if a force pushed the train sideways.
Actually, that's not quite true. In a curve with a guard rail,
the guard rail, which is mounted on the inside face of the
inner running rail, acts to push against the back face of the
flange and steer the wheelset into the curve. The guard rail is
greased up so this is basically a sliding contact. The flange
on the high side (outer rail) does very little work on a guarded
curve. On un-guarded mild curves, which are typical of mainline
railroads as opposed to transit, that high flange does the steering,
in conjunction with the "coning" force that derives from the slant
in the wheel tread.
The theory of those rails in the center, called variously the
protect, bridge or black rails, is that in the event of a derailment
where the train wants to slide sideways off the structure, the
back face of the flange is caught by the protect rail before the
wheels can get too far over (and potentially over the edge of
the ties). These can be supplemented by a guard timber along the
outside edge of the ties that performs a similar function checking
the face of the outside wheel.
Ahhhhhhh. Thanks. That makes quite a bit of sense. It would also explain why they're on the QB express. My E train maintained 45 from just past Roosevelt to past Northern and some of those curves were scary (fun). I must say, the QP-Roosevelt express run both ways was the best I've ever seen today. 40+ halfway going towards Manhattan (and then a steady 15 due to timers/construction/train ahead?) and 35 all the way through going home. What went right today?
The Hillside Ave. express stretch was a racetrack in the good old days. Trains would roar past Sutphin Blvd. in a blur.
Does anyone know why my south bay photos are listed in the index but not on the site?
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/boston/red/mbta-red-southbay02.jpg
Every week, I have to get from work around 6-7PM on Woodhaven Blvd on QB to Metro Tech/Lawrence St on the M/N/R.
If you're tired, you would simply stand on Woodhaven for an R to come in and stay on that all the way down Broadway to Lawrence. However, there is a way I've been trying for the last two weeks that seems much faster.
Take whatever comes in, the G or the R, to Roosevelt. If the F comes in, I'll take it to somewhere along 6th Ave to transfer to a D/Q. If an E comes in, and it is an R46, I'll wait for an F, but if it is an R32, I'll take it to W 4 St, to transfer for a D/Q. I'm picky w/ the models b/c I'm almost always in the front looking for a railfan window. Either way, I go over the bridge to DeKalb, switch sides, and take the M/N/R one stop. I haven't timed my rides yet, but the second way seems so much quicker, because the R has to do the following:
1) Stop at ALL QB stops.
2) Go through the long, tiring connection from Queens Plz to the 60th St tunnel.
3) Make stops at 5 Ave, 57th St, and 49th St, while both the E and F go directly to 50 th St.
4) Make all Bway Lcl stops and all Montague stops.
Now, if the Q went to QB, whether local or express, I could take it all the way down Broadway over the bridge, and come back one stop, making things much quicker on QB, 63rd, Broadway Exp, and the bridge. However, with the V running and the Q ending at 57/7, I am not helped at all because I have made it offical that I never take a local past Roosevelt, wherever it is going, and I all I am left with is the E/F express I started with. By the way, have you ever noticed that ALL QB trains, both express and local, run local in Manhattan, and as far down as they go?
Well, it would be great to have Queens Blvd AND Broadway express out of the Q. But under the proposed system (who are we kidding? Under the UPCOMING system) you CAN still stay on the R until 57th, then transfer there to the Q.
:-) Andrew
...have you ever noticed that ALL QB trains, both express and local, run local in Manhattan, and as far down as they go...
It wasn't always like that. At one point the E was the 8 ave express. Also, when the N went to 71/Continental, it would run B'way express / Manny B with a few weird rush hour exceptions (local downtown AM, uptown PM or something like that). And there were a few bidirectional local trains which went from 71/Continental to Whitehall (a practice still done on the R).
I know. Queens Blvd once had really good, fast service even once you were out of Queens Plaza. But let's look at right now. I know this only going to be for the next four months but here's the status: E: 8th Ave Lcl, F: 6th Ave/Culver Lcl, G: Crosstown Lcl, R: Broadway/Tunnel/4th Ave Lcl. No fast service! Now, the UPCOMING plan as it's called will have the same E, F, and R, but now we will have YET ANOTHER 6th Ave Lcl, the V, which will end at 2nd Ave where nobody south of that point will be able to use it, because the F does exactly the same thing for them. QB has {or had} the option of:
V: another 6th Ave Lcl for more slow service
Q: BIG EXPRESS down BROADWAY OVER THE BRIDGE to BROOKLYN, a faster and far more enjoyable ride. The cars would be the same R-40s, maybe take those 2 or 3 the N uses, and then the R46s the G doesn't need would be about 1 out of every 3 or 4 trains.
By the way, have you ever noticed that ALL QB trains, both express and local, run local in Manhattan, and as far down as they go?
For the E and F, that doesn't make much difference, as running express would skip only 2 stops on either line, 23 and 14 on the F, 23 and Spring on the E. (Note that even in the 50s and 60s when rush hour Es ran express in Manhattan, they always stoped at 50th).
Now, running express down Broadway and over the Manhattan bridge would be considerably faster than local through the tunnel.
-- Ed Sachs
If getting home quick is your main concern, why don't you just transfer to the F at Roosevelt and take it down to Jay Street? It's only a one-block difference between Jay and Lawrence. With all that changing trains, you have to be losing time somewhere.
Good idea-it is probably out the same
Today while riding an R142A set on the Lex Local, I noticed
a new an unfamiliar whine. It was constant, about 2-3 kHz,
similar to the emergency brake cover alarms, but a bit higher
in pitch and not quite as loud (still damn annyoing though).
It was present with the doors open, closed, car moving, standing
still, PA on or PA off. As far as I could tell it was emanating
either from the HVAC system or from some underbody component.
Anyone have similar experiences?
I have a copy of a photo of an MP-41 sized car on the LIRR at Morris Park (on a test run of the now submerged Atlantic Avenue Line). However, the odd thing is that the car ends have the 'owl's eye' portholes and same rivet detailing matching that of the larger MP-54's. The shot was taken in the 40's. It certainly has the small IRT-sized body dimensions.
Any help would be appreciated.
BMTman
The MP-54 didn't have a prototype. The origional batch were old P-54 commuter coaches (owl eyes included) that were modified in 1915 into MP-54's for use on the Paoli Line. I don't think that MP cars had to be labeled consecutivly. The PATH used MP-51's in their Newark runs.
I think you are talking about the PATH MP-38s (which had Owl Eye windows), vs. MP-51/52 & K Class that were Arch Roof cars.
Mr t__:^)
Either way they were built after the MP-54's yes designated before them. This means that the MP-41 was not a prototype for the LIRR MP-54's.
Even if it were an MP41 with the round windows it could be a moification. I"ve seen photos of DD-1 motors in early days with regular windows and later with oval portholes.Maybe they gave the MP41's..or some of them..that treatment?
I haven't been able to find any photos of the MP41's with porthole windows....but in the late teens and early twenties, they did have the larger, MP54 box-style headlamp housings (and more powerful headlamps as well) installed.
As for having porthole windows, perhaps there was one or two in a wreck and they received end components from MP54 type cars.
Just to offer a sidetrip for LIRR fans I corresponded for several years with a retired LIRR shop man and he sent me a couple of pix that showed arch roof MP54's with marker lights, a la R32 etc. As can be seen in MP41 pix, at least older ones, they had the IRT markers..almost the same cars really. (Gibbs).
He also gave me a list of the marker combinations. I think I still have it someplace. Just info I thought somebody might like.
Now THAT is interesting....I noticed ina llthe MP41 pictures I've seen that they had the IRT Lo-V style markers....but didn't know they ever used a color system as the NYCTA did on any of the MP54's.
I'd find the list interesting, I'm sure others would too.
In the early part of this century the LIRR and IRT were working out plans for joint commuter/subway service (via Atlantic Avenue branch merging with IRT New Lots Line at Flatbush -- see related archival threads about the "Belmont Spur").
Unfortunately, when the LIRR was sold off to the Penn Central the joint operation concept was rendered moot and the Gibb's MP-41 rapid transit units were replaced with full-bodied commuter cars.
BMTman
I hate to tell you, but the LIRR was never sold off to the Penn Central.
The LIRR left Pennsylvania Railroad ownership a years or so before Penn Central even came into its short-lived existence.
If I can find the list, if I still have it I'll run it off for you. Wish I knew where and if I still have it. I don't even have an IRT list. guess most of it is in my memory.(IRT one I mean)
WRONG, the LIRR MP-41's were NOT built after the MP54's. They were built BEFORE them.
The car numbers of the MP41's were 1001-1134. THEN came the MP54's in the higher fleet number series.
The MP41's were built by American Car & Foundry in 1905. The first MP54's on the LIRR were built in 1908, so they could begin operating out of Penn Station on September 8, 1910.
As for consecutive numbering of car types, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with any order on the PRR and affiliates.
The number in a PRR/LIRR/H&M car model has to do with the INSIDE LENGTH OF PASSENGER COMPARTMENT as noted in PRR equipment specification diagrams. The MP38's has an inside compartment length of 38'. The 41's....41 feet. And all the "54" types were 54 feet inside length, and about 65' or so over couplers. (P70's? 70 feet inside and about 80 feet overall.) Has nothing to do with build date, or being the 38th or 41st series, etc.
Uh.....
The first '54s were delivered in 1909.
The owl eye windows were a trademark of the parent PRR. Therefore one piece of LIRR equipment having them wouldn't necessarily show any other design relationship.
The MP-41's of the LIRR were the first electric m.u. cars built for LIRR. There was a plan to operate LIRR trains over lines of the IRT at one time, hence, they were built to "somewhat IRT" specifications. That's the reason for the size and the square end windows.
Once plans to operate LIRR trains via IRT went by the wayside, LIRR started receiving MP54 types built by the PRR as sort of a fleet standardization between the two roads (though power systems were totally different as we all know).
[There was a plan to operate LIRR trains over lines of the IRT at one time, hence, they were built to "somewhat IRT" specifications.]
They (the MP-41's) were once used on the Broadway El over the Williamsburg from Manhattan. They connected to the LIRR Bklyn Line at Chestnut Street and then went to the Rockaways. I think the last time the MP41's were used was on a shuttle between Country Life Press and Mitchell Field on the 'ol Central Branch.
I recall reading somewhere, that the first passenger line electrified by the PRR was the West Jersey & Seashore (ca 1905), that ran btwn Philly and AC. At first, they adapted some wood or composite cars for MU operation.
They wanted to adapt a standard steam suburban car (the P-41) to electric operation, by adding electrical equipment.
So, when you see nomenclature on PRR equipment that has an "MP" prefix, the "P" means the type of non-motorized car it was based on, and the "M" means electric/multiple unit version.
Just as an interesting aside-the L.I.R.R. converted some of the early MP-54's into steam hauled P-54's. As I understand it, the P-54 was originally designed as a "modern" steel commuter coach for the Pittsburgh etc. commuter runs, with an eye towards conversion to mu units for electrification projects contemplated for Philadelphia. However, the original L.I.R.R. MP-54's were purpose built as mu's in 1908. The Paoli electrification took place about seven years later so the L.I.R.R. MP-54's were the first.
CNN is reporting that the London Underground will be going on strike... read the article here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
CP Rail just delivered 6446-6450 and 6476-80 to NY&A Fresh Pond Yard. Had to get them and write them really quick, I think they were exceeding the 10MPH speed limit a little :)
Shawn.
Thanks for that note. One 5 car set will be delivered tonight, the other tomorrow. Doug and Mike, be on the lookout! Will come back with my usual report on R-142 sightings later....
-Stef
I wish I were going to be home Saturday. I caught NY&A delivering them to Linden last week. I could have got some pictures or something this week. I'm off the the mountains of Pennsylvania for snowboarding day trip, so I can't complain :)
Shawn.
Arrived at 9:24PM with Diesel 67,68,899 and RD334, and was headed for East 180th St as usual.
It should also be noted that, 6326-30 and 6341-45 are paired together in Revenue Service right now as 6331-40 are out pending inspections. 6331-35 just came off the pit track at 207th Street on Wednsday, 6336-40 are inside right now. I guess they'll look at the other 142s in Revenue Service, namely the Baseball Train and 6411-20.
-Stef
I think I saw them. At around 8:15 or 8:30 tonight, I saw a train consisting of R-142 or R-142A cars, with no lights on and a sign on the ends saying, "Do Not Hump," and a yellow work car at either end, tonight going past Atlantic Avenue on the Manhattan-bound #4 track. I didn't notice the car numbers, though.
- Lyle Goldman
That was them. Tonight, 6446-50 will be in the system and will pass around the same time. The locomotives used to deliver 6376-80 have left East 180th Street about an hour or so ago and I'm pretty sure they have gone back to Linden Yard where they will pick up the second batch for this evening.
I probably won't see them tonight as I will be away from the railfan window, and elsewhere, but 6446-50 can be put on Dave's delivery sheet anyway.
-Stef
A couple of days ago, 6331-6335 came out of its hiding spot at 239St Yard. Look like it was heading down to the East. Before 6331-6335 left, the WS special arrive to call it a night.
6331-35 were transferred to 207th Street for work on it's trucks. It seems that the trip cock assemblies are defective, and were in the process of being replaced/repaired.
-Stef
Looking at a fairly large scale HBLR map, it struck me that PATH Hoboken station appears to be about 1/4 mile from the PATH Hudson River tunnel to 33rd street. Would it be possible to open a station serving this area on the tunnel line and close the dead-end station? This would simplify the system and end the need for some trains to reverse at Hoboken before continuing their journey. Or are there insurmountable engineering problems?
Just curious.
Hoboken is a major origin/destination point on PATH. In addition to the passengers connecting to/from NJT, there is a large population density within walking distance of the Hoboken terminal.
No harm in asking.
You obviously are more familiar with the tunnnel layout than with the surface. Before I explain why it would not work, may I suggest that you go get some exercise in the form of a hike around the area.
The short answer to your suggestion is that each of the PATH stations on the Jersey waterfront was co-located with a surface railroad terminal. The Hoboken PATH station is the only one of the three that still has an RR terminal directly upstairs. Moving the PATH station would break this link, lengthening commutation times.
Also, unless some other arrangements were made, moving the Hoboken PATH station to the north edge of Jersey City, where the tunnel comes ashore, would place it on the south edge of the Hoboken train yard, requiring commuters to walk the entire perimeter of the yard to get to the terminal.
Go visit the ventilator tower, and see for yourself.
Also, the 33rd Street tunnel comes ashore in a two-level wye cassion. It would be difficult to move the station any closer to the wye.
PATH predates the Pennsylvania station tunnels, and it was designed to connect to the Jersey lines at the three waterfront stations. The Newark extension was a "joint service" arrangement with the Penn RR.
Max's mail address is in the UK ... kind of hard to go out for a walk around that area :)
Wouldn't the opening of direct NY Penn service make the Hoboken terminal less patronized anyway?
--Mark
There is already direct Penn service on the M&E lines and once the Seacaucas connection opens up everyone could get to Penn. However, the PATH offers several destinations other than Penn (like the WTC and sterrts south of 33rd), the PATH WAS alot cheaper than the NJT Penn surcharge and some commuters might just prefer the less crowded Hoboken Terminal to the underground shoebox Penn Station. Keep in mind that many many people change at Newark to the PATH and most people who ride Aldene Plan trains don't change to a corridor train, but rather the PATH.
Max's mail address is in the UK ... kind of hard to go out for a walk around that area :)
Oops. Sorry. I guess that explains why he is not intimately familiar with the surface conditions along the PATH route.
Wouldn't the opening of direct NY Penn service make the Hoboken terminal less patronized anyway?
Somewhat. You're thinking of the Secaucus Transfer Station/Allied Junction work going on now, which will allow Bergen/Main/PV line pax to get to NYP w/o going through Hoboken, and the Montclair Connection, which will reallign the Boonton Line so that it becomes an extension of the M&E Montclaire Branch. While it is true that some Boonton trains may go into NYP, others, I believe will continue to go to Hoboken. Moreover, you need to remember that ST/AJ makes no new track connections. Thus, many pax bound for mid-town will merely have another choice of where to change trains. Pax for downtown who are going through Hoboken now will continue to go through Hoboken, I believe.
Say, does anyone know what the current callback timeframe NYCTA is from date of initial testing to callback for first interview? And is the T/O exam still done yearly or is the civil elgible service list simply extended for an additional year or two? Piece and free love,
Thomas
This list is govenerd by CIVIL SERVICE rules. The list is in effect for one year, renewable each year for up to four years.
This was the first time EVER in the (almost)100 years of the subway that T/O was open competative so NOBODY KNOWS if there will be another O/C test.
Since the last class was 40 assume they are calling 150 to 250 for each class. The one in three rule also applies.
Also since this is a saftey title you must account for medical holds and such.
Also no one know how many will fail the training or fail thier probation time.
SO TO ANSWER THIS question one more time, NOBODY KNOWS, this is the FIRST TIME in TA history so your guess is as good as anyone. As they call more classes you might see an AVERAGE TIME.
Roger that Lou from Brooklyn, and thanx for the info!!- :> peace, Thomas
When I was at Lenox on Wednesday the T/D gave me a copy of this Memo about a number of Job openings for Conductor Typist on all Tours at the Subways Control Center.
It looks like a good job being where all the action is but I can't help thinking the T/D was trying to give me a hint.
I don't know if I can even apply I only have a total of 2 Mouths as a Conductor and only 3 weeks on the road.
I don't think they will take you if this is an example of your typing skill:
>>I only have a total of 2 Mouths as a Conductor
I know I am better off on the road anyway.
No, but it's an example of great skill at being a C/R; you can talk on the radio and make announcements on the PA at the same time ;)
Two mouths? Maybe he's talking out his....oh, never mind!!!
:-)
I saw that same memo at 239th Tower the other day......
MARTA contracted with an ad company to put moving ads inside the subway tunnels. MARTA will be the first subway to do this. I thinks it's a cool way to make some money. Now, subfans have their own place to take their dates to see a movie.
Tunnel Vision
Montreal had the same thing 34 years ago when their Metro opened for Expo `67. It had images of a cigarette coming out of it's box and then being lit, with the pictures in the tunnel creating a stroboscopic effect as the train went by. (Heading the other way, you could watch the cigarette go back into the box, since the ad was in a section of the tunnel where there was no crash wall).
Going the other way was an anti-smoking ad :).
It sounds sort of similar to what used to be in the abandoned Myrtle Avenue station, though I never got to see that.
...no crash wall
I've ridden most of the metro there, and none of the tunnels have crash walls.
It's been a long time since I've ridden the Metro in Montreal (long enough ago to ride it to an Expo game at Jarry Park), so I wasn't sure if all the lines were minus the crash walls. But I do remember the cigarette going back into the package, which is why I knew that one area, at least, was minus the crash walls.
Why couldn't they get the sign like those in Montreal on the CQ312 cars? It could do something like this (Scroll down to see the messages, we are traveling between Buckhead and Lindberg Center):
SOUTHBOUND TRAIN TO:
HARTSFIELD AIRPORTNEXT STATION: LINGBERGH CENTERHAVE YOU BEEN TO
TURNER FIELD RECENTLY?IF NOT, COME SEE YOUR
ATLANTA BRAVES PLAY THEMONTREAL EXPOS JUNE 5-7.
ALL GAMES AT 7 PM.GET MONTHLY PASSES FOR MARTA AT
HTTP://WWW.ITSMARTA.COM!DID YOU KNOW THAT
AVONDALE IS THE ONLYSTATION WITH 4 TRACKS?THIS IS LINDBERGH CENTER.
TRANSFER AVAILABLE FOR TRAINS TO DORAVILLE.ALSO, USE THIS STATION FOR MARTA HEADQUARTERS.
In reality, only one message would show at a time and they would appear on the LEDs, located in similar positions as they are now.
CQ312s interior signs show the destination of the train now. Those interior signs might work. But perhaps it's cheaper put something on a tunnel wall instead of fitting every train with a bigger LED sign.
They also tried it in Berlin a couple of years ago, but it didn't work. I think no one could read the ads, so they dropped them again.
A while back, we had a thread about the 63rd Street tunnel. I realized that given the cost of building under Northern Boulevard and connecting into the Queens Boulevard Line, the MTA could have given the Queens Boulevard local train full access to the 63rd Street tunnel, removed the Astoria line, and replaced it with a subway attached to the 63rd St tunnel. That subway could have gone on to LGA.
That got me thinking...what were some of the other NYC rail investment decisions that were, in retrospect, mistakes?
If they knew then what they know now (unification, no IND Second System), they would probably have built the second IND line on 3rd Avenue instead of 6th Avenue. We wouldn't need the Second Avenue Subway today, just an Upper East Side extension.
In that case, they might have extended the PATH train up 6th Avenue someday.
They wouldn't have built the Chrystie Street connection, they would have built a second tunnel to the 3rd Avenue line for the express.
They would have connected the G line to Jay Street, heading toward Manhattan. Or perhaps they wouldn't have built it. They would have added a third track to the Canarsie Line, and created a branch off it instead.
If they knew the LIRR was going to be taken over the state anyway, perhaps they would have kept the Rockaway Line as an LIRR line, rather than connecting it to the A.
That got me thinking...what were some of the other NYC rail investment decisions that were, in retrospect, mistakes?
If you'll consider the suburbs, electrifying the LIRR's Ronkonkoma line in the 1980's was a huge mistake. There used to be three main lines in Suffolk County with roughly equal ridership levels: Port Jefferson, Montauk and Ronkonkoma. Now Pt. Jefferson and Montauk are underused while Ronkonkoma is obscenely overcrowded.
(That got me thinking...what were some of the other NYC rail investment decisions that were, in retrospect, mistakes?
If you'll consider the suburbs, electrifying the LIRR's Ronkonkoma line in the 1980's was a huge mistake. There used to be
three main lines in Suffolk County with roughly equal ridership levels: Port Jefferson, Montauk and Ronkonkoma. Now Pt.
Jefferson and Montauk are underused while Ronkonkoma is obscenely overcrowded.)
I guess if they knew (or thought about) dual modes, they could have avoided that investment.
The mistake wasn't so much electrifying to Ronkonkama, but NOT electrifying the other branches.
-Hank
Amen. For the amount of money they have spent on dual mode locomotives I cannot be convinced the LIRR could not have electrified to Port Jeff.
I disagree. Electrifying Ronkonkoma was a brilliant move. The line was so underutilized it could almost have been an abandonment candidate. Off-peak service was every two hours, and rush hour service was slow. Electrification also contributed to improvement of a number of working class, heacily minority communities along the central spine of Suffolk, including Wyandanch, Brentwood and Central Islip.
Port Jeff and Montauk may be underutilized now but those lines are heavily used where electrification begins, west of Huntington and Babylon. When these lines are electrified further east it will relieve Ronkonkonkoma.
Since most of the railroads in this country are doing just fine w/o electrification, why is there such an impact on LI when a line is electrified?
Since most of the railroads in this country are doing just fine w/o electrification, why is there such an impact on LI when a line is electrified?
I don't even know where to begin to respond to that question. Electric service provides a higher quality of service (speed, acceleration, efficiency) than diesel or even dual-mode. Even with the more comfortable bi-levels operating on diesel Port Jeff and Montauk runs, large numbers of people still drive to Huntington, Babylon and ROnkonkoma to take the electrics.
I don't see where most railroads are doing "just fine" w/o electrification. There's hardly any passenger service left save Amtrak, and most Amtrak service is in the northeast corridor, now electrified from Washington to Boston.
Most of the industrialized world depends on electric railroads for their heavy duty lines.
> I don't see where most railroads are doing "just
> fine" w/o electrification. There's hardly any
> passenger service left save Amtrak, and most Amtrak
> service is in the northeast corridor, now electrified
> from Washington to Boston.
> Most of the industrialized world depends on
> electric railroads for their heavy duty lines.
"Railroad" is not synonymous with "rail passenger service." North American railroads are and always have been primarily freight carriers; historically, I believe LIRR was the only Class 1 railroad to derive more than half its revenue from passengers. If the tax money is available, there are good operational and environmental arguments to be made for investing in expanded electric operation of public-sector commuter and regional passenger services, but the freight rail industry has concluded that under present economic conditions main-line electrification is not a productive use of capital.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
and given their general level of brilliance over the last decade or so, just as wrong as about many other strategic decisions. The "conventional wisdom" is that electrification requiressome specific ton mile density to pay off. The gross picture today is that we have VERY few miles of line carrying massive tonnages. The numbers if properly crunched would IMHO prove out for 1 the UP ain accross Nebraska, Wyoming etc. , the BN and UP coal lines , the two primary intermodal routes from Chgo to North Jersey. Note that second mains are being (re")installed in places along these. As a secondary concept, it would seem that RR owned or at least partially owned and fully committed generation would be a worthwhile investment anyway--electricity usage is not diminishing.
It wouldn't be the first time that ownership of rail and electric systems was in the same hands.
In hindsight, perhaps the IND system, per se, should not have been built. The building of the first system, heavily over-engineered and built without respect to market considerations, placed too great a burden on the city's rapid transit debt.
This effect also occurred because, despite the cliche that the Dual Contract subways were "built with public money for the benefit of private operators" this is a gross distortion. The private companies contributed approximately half the cost of building and equipping those lines and that doesn't even include the pre-existing BRT system completely built with private capital.
The money would have been better spent in expansion of the existing BMT and IRT systems and replacement of aging infrastructure as needed, not as politically dictated.
As to the 3rd Ave/6th Ave. issue: The City was hot to remove the 6th Ave el from the heart of the city. Also, since the 8th Avenue subway was the first IND line, the 6th Avenue el could not have remained if the 9th was dismanted unless, of course, the entire northern portion of the 9th were kept.
I do agree that 3rd Avenue is a better location for a new east side subway, even today.
I do agree that 3rd Avenue is a better location for a new east side subway, even today.
In what way is 3rd Avenue a better location today? Doesn't it make more sense to have more room between the Lex and the new line?
In what way is 3rd Avenue a better location today? Doesn't it make more sense to have more room between the Lex and the new line?
Not necessarily. I think the issue isn't whether the lines need to be spaced out as is it how close they are to where people want to go. The 3rd always had higher ridership and service than the 2nd when they were both in existence, even with the Lex so close to the 3rd.
In midtown, the 2nd Avenue Line is too far east for most people's purposes, decreasing the destinations that are not walkable. Of course, having the 2nd run down Broadway is useful, whether or not the lower 2nd was built.
Look at it this way, would subway riding be improved if the current 5 north-south mainlines were on 2nd, Lex, 6th, 8th and 10th instead of Lex, Broadway, 6th, 7th and 8th?
In midtown, the 2nd Avenue Line is too far east for most people's purposes, decreasing the destinations that are not walkable. Of course, having the 2nd run down Broadway is useful, whether or not the lower 2nd was built.
Having a new line on 2nd rather than 3rd avenue would be better for all the hospitals located on 1st/York avenues.
In hindsight, perhaps the IND system, per se, should not have been built. The building of the first system, heavily over-engineered and built without respect to market considerations, placed too great a burden on the city's rapid transit debt.
Of course, the City's timing with respect to the IND was all wrong. First there was the Great Depression, then, following the brief respite accorded by World War II, the rise of suburbanization and auto use.
In the event the current plans for the 2nd Avenue Subway fall through (which is looking more likely every day), I have an idea about how to reduce overcrowding on the Lex line between Grand Central and 96th Street. Please let me know what you think.
The idea is based on the premise of minimizing the amount of local-only stations. When the 8th Avenue IND system was being designed in Manhattan in the 1920's, the planners wanted to minimize the imbalance of passengers' use of the expresses and locals. The planners had examined the IRT's prior experience of straphangers riding a local only until the next express stop and then using the express. That resulted in packed expresses and relatively empty locals. This problem still exists today, particularly on the Lex.
To alleviate this problem, the IND planners designed the 8th Avenue subway to have only three local-only stops between 59th Street - Columbus Circle and Chambers Street. (For the record, the 3 stops are 50th Street, 23rd Street and Spring Street - only the E and C stop there, not the A.) This way, a passenger seated on an IND local heading below Columbus Circle would not see much time advantage in switching to an express at 42nd Street, because that train would still be stopping at 34th, 14th, West 4th, Canal and Chambers. This would result in fairly even loading of passengers between the locals and expresses. As anyone who rides the 8th Avenue lines knows, this idea has worked, for the most part.
Now, my suggestion is - why not apply this idea to the east side IRT? My experience is that below Grand Central, the expresses are quite manageable, but the 6's start to get crowded at around 33rd Street. They really start to pick up passengers at Grand Central and 51st Street, and by the time the average 6 reaches 59th Street, its sardine time. Once the 6 passes 96th Street, though, many people have gotten off and the train is manageable again.
The TA could alleviate this problem by adding express stations at 51st, 68th, 77th and 86th Streets. This way, a straphanger riding a 4 or 5 northbound, and heading to the upper east side would not switch to the 6 at Grand Central, because that 4 or 5 would be stopping at the same stations as the 6. As with the IND, there would be little or no advantage to switching to the local if the express and local stopped at the same stations. This would result in even apportionment of passenger load - certainly more even than it is now.
The TA already acknowledged this as a possible solution when an express station was opened at 59th Street in 1962.
And if one is worried about congestion on the line if both trains run "local," the TA could always create a "skip-stop" system or have the trains bypass these new local stations during off-peak hours.
I welcome everyone's thoughts.
Funny, I sometimes change at West 4th to go up the east side and the local trains are ALWAYS empty. Even though you say 8th Ave was made to keep pax on the local, I don't think it happens.
What the heck is a "pax"?
- Lyle Goldman
What the heck is a "pax"?
Channel 31
Just kidding.
Plural nouns in English don't take articles, the proper question is "What the heck is 'pax?'"
The proper anser is passengers.
It also means "peace" in Latin, FWIW. At least I remember "pax" being used when Mass was still said in Latin.
Before I worked for the TA in early 65 I had to go from 170/Concourse to Rockefeller Center [worked at Model RR Equip Corp]. Normally one seat D train ride but when I travelled the D was aa Concourse express. Stayed on the CC all the way to 59th and changed for 6th Ave. Had a seat most of the way below 145st. Time lost-5 minutes.
Please..ruin a good railroad by adding more stops to the Lex express?Never. How about running the diamond-6 express on the local tracks to 59th and resuming local operation below there? But then you'd probably be stuck behind an all-stop.train.
Interesting how a few minutes difference-more psychologically by running express, will make people take greater discomfort.
(The TA could alleviate this problem by adding express stations at 51st, 68th, 77th and 86th Streets.)
Adding express stops is hard. Eliminating local stops is easy. If the local was faster, more people would use it, rather than the express. The TA could close 28th Street, and build a new station at Houston to replace Bleeker and Spring (full transfer to the IND). And it could run the #6 skip-stop in residential areas.
Interestingly, the local stations on the Upper East Side are well spaced. It seems as if only the orignial IRT had stations too close together.
True, but something has to be done and its much less expensive than building a new subway line.
(True, but something has to be done and its much less expensive than building a new subway line.)
What I have suggested is extending the Times Square shuttle to a ferry terminal on the E. River Waterfront, perhaps as part of a new development on the Con Ed site. Then put in a series of docks up and down the river. Private sector boaters could run from those docks up and down the river, and those who could afford it would get a more pleasent alternative to the Lex. The shuttle would provide access to the heart of Midtown; Downtown is near enough to the water as it is.
I think that digging a tunnel along 42nd Street from Park Avenue South to the FDR would be very very expensive....the Lex IRT tunnel already exists - it shouldn't be that complicated to add stations there....
Are you kidding? That's the oldest section of the system. Where would you suggest the platforms be built? No matter where, it would require extensive demolition of existing stations and realignment of tracks. Prohibitively expensive, considering you need to keep the line running during the construction.
-Hank
Does anyone have any cost figures for the construction of the express platforms and ancillary structures at 59th St.?
Did they keep the trains running?
How long did it take from beginning to end?
I'll offer what I can. The trains kept running OK, except night express service was curtailed. Woodlawn service was local..and the Lexington Ave Local plate signs were remade once more. Gave me a chance to get one. Long gone now.
Just note that I am not suggesting that the existing stations be demolished and made wider to accomodate a 4-track subway - I am talking about a 2-level subway.
It's already two levels from 51st st to about 110th st. How deep can you go?
Just like Queens there is no other solution besides an additional line. And Queens and the East side are long overdue. The Queens matter has been given a band aid by eliminating thru service on the G.
First, its not the oldest section of the system, because the section above Grand Central dates from the Dual Contracts, not 1904. Also, why would the addition of express stations BELOW the existing stations (like at 59th Street) require the demolition of the existing local stations?
You mean adding an express at 96th, right? 86th is already express.
Maybe he thinks that one express station at 86th isn't enough?
Just kidding.
No way. What does that do?
Make reduced fares on the M15, M98, M101, M102, and M103. 75 cents per person, 50 cents for reduced fares.
ACK!
That would make the buses worse and the trains not much better!
Whenever the Lexington line is out for some reason I have to take the bus uptown from midtown east. Not only does it take me at least twice as long, but all the buses are packed. Reducing bus fare would make the buses a little more popular, a little more crowded, and do nothing at all for the Lex Line.
Whattaya trying to do, destroy my favorite NYC express?
Those of us who rely on public transport will soon feel the pinch caused by the ascendence of His Fraudulency, George "Dee-Dubya-Eye" Bush. Conservatives dislike mass transit and most of the people who ride it; this will be proven in the amount of funding given by Bush and Congress. (Where do you think they'll find the money to pay for that massive tax cut? Take it away from programs and services that don't benefit the targets of that cut.)
Also, people who ride public transit aren't driving cars and burning gas, and we all know that the so-called President was once an oilman...
(Where do you think they'll find the money to pay for that massive tax cut? Take it away from programs and services that don't benefit the targets of that cut.)
No. Actually, a large chunk will come from the surplus. If that doesn't work, they'll print it, like Uncle Ronnie. If all else fails, there's always Voodoo Economics. It's hard to believe that the GOP once stood for sound fiscal policy; all of that changed in 1980.
At the end of the day, the GOP's failure to retain real control of the Senate will prevent any drastic changes that require Congressional action. Of course, in matters where no Congressional action is required, stay tuned.
Also remember, however, that together with those tax cuts will be sharply increased military/defense spending, including the Strategic Defense Initiative ("Star Wars").
Any surplus produced during Clinton's term will be quickly wiped out.
You may be right about George W not making mass transit a priority in his administration. However, when the democrats i.e. Clinton were in power they made speeches in favor of transit but I didn't see them providing money for it either. Look at Charles Schummer, what has he done for transit? Christie Whitman, a republican (NJ), has more rail projects under construction than NY.
New York City in 1900 was far different than that of the 1920's. There was very little commercial development north of 14th St in 1900; it was residential. Most of the office space was still south of City Hall. The IRT designers developed a system for the City that was then in place, not one that would evolve thanks to the 1916 zoning law. The 8th Avenue Subway was designed for a different city not on a different design philosophy.
The area north of 42nd St was still residential even in the teens. This is why there were no express stops between 42nd and 125th St on the 3rd Ave El, when it was 3-tracked. The placement 86th St express stop on the Lex predates the dual contracts. A reading of some of the planning documents would reveal that they wanted an express stop and located it at some point midway between Grand Central and 125th St.
My experience is that below Grand Central, the expresses are quite
manageable, but the 6's start to get crowded at around 33rd Street.
Studies do not bear out your observation. The leave load for both Lex Ave Expresses and Locals is given in a planning study that is available on the MTA web site. They show that the locals are significantly less crowded than the expresses at all Manhattan stations.
This was sent several months ago so what he's talking about didn't happen yesterday. This installment give you a feeling for how single track operations can really get FUBAR. You will learn just how your Amtrak train was delayed 50 minutes and what compensation Amtrak gets from the delaying freight line. Enjoy.
**********************************************************************
Today we take still another look at single track railroad.
Yesterday was another in a long line of exciting days on the trusty CNIC
railroad. We start our day at 0900 at Champaign, IL. This was our call time
for MEGL. We had a train that was worked and ready to be doubled up, and
airtested. We had paper work. We had OK'd General Orders. The only thing
lacking was motive power. There were two road units there, the 1039 and
1015, but they were coming due an inspection. The grand scheme of things
had them doing the following;
Send the 1019/1015 out on LCPDE, the Champaign-Decatur Local. He will
meet his counterpart LDECP and swap power sending the two 1000's back to
Champaign to go north on JACH this evening. This delays two trains for this
switching move, accomplished a little later in the morning at Tolono. It
most likely had a blocked crossing or two involved as well. We waited as inbound
JACH rolled into the yard to get his power the 6115 and 6067. This power had
to be fueled and inspected before we took it over and got our train.
I had asked why we didn't get the two 1000's and just swap them out at
Markham where we have to stop anyway to pick up. No no no, cannot do it the
logical way. It is not the railroad way. I know, we once again, don't see
the "big picture". Why delay just one train when we can delay two of them, or three?
And we all know there is nothing like delaying trains on single track
railroad.
While finally getting doubled up, I was listening to the swap-o-rama
unfolding at Tolono. The two locals both had work to do there. And to make things more
exciting, the NS shows up with a 17K type train to hand off to the CNIC.
This would become XTOCE, Extra, Tolono-Centralia. There are several power
switches involved here so Chicago South Dispatcher John Childs had his
hands full. He was already pretty loaded with chores as the track department
was beginning a program tie replacement project on the Chicago District
today too. So, in addition to all of his other duties, he has them to contend with
and still operate trains. He was starting to sound a little beleaguered at
times.
We were finally ready to depart about 1015. The tie gang was still in the
way. They would clear for us when they could. We had to get talked by the stop
signal at Leverett Jct owing to these folks being in the block. John read us
our rights to which I repeated them back and got the OK. We departed at 1030.
Before leaving though, I contacted the Foreman in charge of Joint Authority
number one for instructions about entering his work area. Foreman Ross
instructed us to wait at the entrance to the limits as he had a piece of
equipment break down and it couldn't clear just yet. So, we pulled up to MP
122 and stopped. He said it would be about twenty minutes. I didn't ask if that
was real or railroad time. They are significantly different and will be
explained sometime in another column.
Being that I attempt to be a responsible person (just don't ask the
beautiful bride about that though), I stop south of MP 122 at the Town of Leverett
short of the road crossing there. We camped out there from 1035 to 1138, twenty
minutes of "railroad" time. When the temperamental track equipment was
repaired, Foreman Ross gave us our permission through his joint authority
with "men and equipment are in the clear" and a 25 mph speed restriction between
MP119 and 118.5, we started to proceed. It was at this moment that our
substitute Brakeman FRED, decided he had about enough of this trip this day.
He yelled out that he had low batteries. About thirty seconds later, he
yelled out that he was now dead and we lost our link.
I contacted Champaign Yard about sending out a Car Inspector with new
batteries for FRED as we would be restricted to 30 mph otherwise. Rondeau
informed us that one would be coming to assist. We stopped just north of
Leverett Road crossing and waited. Fortunately, it was only a twenty-five
minute delay. We got "reFREDed as it were. All fixed and tested, we depart
Leverett Road about 1210 and head to Rantoul to meet RMK-10, a Markham
Road Switcher well outside of his limits with a train of miscellaneous
freight from the IHB that Markham must be too plugged to handle. Right behind him
was LGICP with his train of grain and tank cars.
Off to Gar Creek and a wait of some fifty-two minutes for UWNI to run around
his train of empty NIPSCO hoppers and head south. They have to pull this
train off the connection from the NS, run around it and then head south. It is a
backwards connection here. We, more often than not, have to go to into their
yard 1.5 miles west of the connection to get the train. Instead of shoving
it this distance across three road crossings and the high bridge over the Kankakee
River, then up through the connection and out onto the IC main and north for
almost another mile to clear up a road crossing before heading south, most
crews opt for the run-around move. Contrary to what a few company officers
who don't actually have to perform this maneuver say, it is not safer to
hang on the side of a car for this entire move. It is a total of well over three
miles to hang on at 10 mph or less. So we patiently waited. Soon the 6250 and 6111
came south with 109 NORX, CCP and UP coal hoppers enroute to
Farmersville, IL and a reloading of black diamonds.
We head on into K3 to make our pick up then. Here is where the single track
really paid for itself yet again. GLCE is approaching and GLME is behind
him. Being that we already had 96 cars and had to make a pick up of 46 cars off
two tracks here and even better, we don't want to block a very busy road crossing, we have to cut our train off back far enough to clear this crossing after we
doubled our pick up back against our train. This means we don't clear KX, the south end of the siding and the NS crossing. This requires GLCE to have to stop and wait on us. This actually worked out for him as he too had trouble with FRED. We stopped and Conductor Charlie had to "persuade" him to come back to life.
We head into the yard gathered up all of our cars, doubled back to the train
and, being the nice guys we are, pull the entire train north of North St,
the very busy crossing, to perform the airtest on the pick up. This allowed us to
clear up KX and let GLCE go. As we were pulling up, here comes GLME. He drops a
bombshell on the fresh new Chicago South Dispatcher Jim that he has a set
out and a pick up there to make too. This went over like the proverbial
"fart in church". It is getting late in the afternoon and Amtrak 391 is going to
become a factor in the equation.
GLME's work here is not simple though, as that would be wrong. The CNIC has
a firm belief that no task performed should be simple if can indeed be made
difficult. And GLME's task was somewhat daunting. They had a K3 set out on
the head end. They also had to pick up, but this was to be made in block.
This meant that after he set out, he had to tie back onto his train, pump up the
air, pull down and make a cut between the Fulton and Memphis blocks, come back
into the yard with the head end of his train grab his pick up and double it
all back to the rest of his train. Doesn't sound impossible right? Well for
added fun and excitement, he has to perform this work over KX interlocking requiring
Chicago South to have to operate the dual control switches and clear the
signals. As if he doesn't already have enough to do. Here is yet another
cost effective benefit gained by closing the tower here and giving control to the
Dispatcher too.
GLME also has to perform an airtest of the cars he picked up and will have
several road crossings blocked in Kankakee to perform all of this. After the
airtest is complete, the Conductor will stll haveto walk up the remaining
cars to the head end of the train and this will take time. I'm waiting for the day
the law comes and hauls one of us off to jail for this violation. I'll go willingly.
Don't want resisting arrest added on to the list of charges.
I almost forgot to mention, RKA-01, the daylight K3 switcher was also in the
siding ahead of us while we did our work. He switched Belson's Scrap and
Iron and then cleared up for us at Armour Pharmaceutical. He got to sit and wait
a long time, and now they were on overtime too.
We get our airtest done and depart at 1604 for the great fright north. Our
train is now 142 cars and some 8300 feet or so long. We learn that we will meet a
grain train at Peotone. It is getting dangerously close to 391 time as he is
due out of Homewood at 1640. We are told that we would only meet one train at
Peotone. Being that a train of this size fits nowhere north of Manteno
without blocking road crossings, I take my time getting to Peotone. I'm not in the
mood to get into another pissing match with this particular Dispatcher about
cutting crossings again like I did a few months ago. We stop to clear the middle
crossing at Peotone while blocking the one at the south end. When the grain
train starts to show, I pull all the way up to North Peotone and clear up
the south end. Only had the south crossing blocked some 20 or so minutes.
The IC 6000 south heads in and clears up, and we depart. I hear Chicago
North Mike call 391 and tell him he will be waiting for a northbound at
Stuenkel, the end of double track. I have a big heavy train now and the 6067 is a
piece of junk and not pulling for all it is worth. I guess you can get like that when
you are thirty something years old. We struggle and crawl up to Stuenkel and meet
391 and his four coaches. He departs from there about 1732, the time he should
be departing Gilman some 50 miles down the road. No incentive money for on
time performance again today.
I was told that it costs the CNIC about $27 per minute for every freight
interference delay they incur to Amtrak. So I guess money is no object here.
We're saving so much money with the single track that performance money
obviously doesn't matter much.
Right behind 391 is NS train 27V with two Soo Line units and a long string
of autoracks in tow. He has been waiting for all of the traffic to clear too,
but there is no performance money involved here. NS pays the IC some $100 per car for
every car they move between Chicago and Gibson City whether it takes 6
hours, or 24 hours. Time, and the number of crews required are irrelevant.
I'm sure that somewhere, some NS managers got a big bonus for eliminating their
own line in favor of operating over the IC in 1988. Again, a cost effective
strategy.
We finally get to Homewood at 1740 set out 16 of cars that we picked up at
K3 here and pick up 19 more Glenns to take north with us. Getting in and out is
fairly easy today, only waiting for I-01 to depart first before we shove
back out against our train. We depart for Glenn at 1915 with 54X91, 9470 tons, and
make it as far as 39th St in Chicago before getting held there for Amtrak 59
to go south and then the following WC 219 to get around us. We now have some
8556 feet of train and fit nowhere beyond Clark St without blocking
interlockings. We don't have enough time to make Glenn Yard, so they kill us
off here instead. "Oh, dey got me!"
We wait on the recrew and listen to all the activity and excitement about
the boxcars on fire in Riverdale. The whole railroad is now shutdown as they
cannot operate trains past the blazing boxes. Even Metra's parallel Electric
is stopped. This is another one of those times when I really don't miss being a
company official.
We finally get recrewed and taxi back to Glenn to tie up. Our off duty time
is 2215 hours. We have proven yet again, just how efficient the single track
railroad can be. Instead of running our 136 miles in 12 hours or less, we
covered 117 actual miles, and with the tow in time and overtime, were paid
the equivalent of 253 miles. Now that is efficiency at its finest.
And so it goes.
Tuch
*snip*
Woah woah....
I thought single track operation was one of the many "innovations" that make the US passsenger and freight rail system the gosh darn best and most efficient in the world, Mike.
It's not that hard to realize that when you've got trains heading in opposite directions, single tracks suck.
Amtrak did this stupidity with the Springfield line and you get held up everywhere a lot as a result.
Oh yeah, and those 3 dumb speed restrictions below Hartford. Only Amtrak is stupid enough to slow to a crawl for a grade crossing....
Single line operations is a great inovation, but like everything else it only works in moderation. Lines like the NJT Atlantic City Line or the Springfield Line have the traffic density to make single line running work. I have never been delayed on the Springfield waiting for a train to pass. Regarding the grade crossings Wallingford CT had the largest number of grade crossing deaths in any city in the US. Evidently both re-engineering the crossings and a speed restriction was though necessary to stop the stupid motorists. You have to admit that all those crossings in Wallingford and Meriden are dangerous and something needs to be done. I also don't see why you have to complain about the short 60 mph restriction at Berlin for the station, crossings and sidings there.
/*I have never been delayed on the Springfield waiting for a train to pass.*/
Lucky you. For me, it's at least 2 out of 3 times.
/* Regarding the grade crossings Wallingford CT had the largest number of grade crossing deaths in any city in the US.*/
Well that's because CT drivers are stupid. Not Amtrak's fault.
/*Evidently both re-engineering the crossings and a speed restriction was though necessary to stop the stupid motorists.*/
It wasn't. Amtrak just caved into the local whiny safety nuts who can't blame the idiot drivers for their own accidents.
/*You have to admit that all those crossings in Wallingford and Meriden are dangerous and something needs to be done.*/
no, they're not. The LIRR takes the ones at Mineola and New Hyde Park, among other places, at speed. Grade crossings aren't dangerous if you stay off them when the gates are down.
/*I also don't see why you have to complain about the short
60 mph restriction at Berlin for the station, crossings and sidings there. */
because a) there's no crossings at Berlin and b)it's a pointless restriction anyway, as are the other 2 on the line. Oh yes, and the 45mph restriction from 5 miles north of New Haven, to the station.
Maybe Amtrak got sick of grade crossing accidents. It makes no sence for Amtrak to waste millions of dollars in damage and risk lawsuits just to prove a point. The Berlin PSR is beause of the hand operated MofW/local delivery sidings and related turnouts. Its only about 1000 feet long and has the added benifit of making the Berlin station platform safer. The 45mph speed north of New Haven is not a PSR, its the speed enforced by the signal rules. Trains usually make turnouts at both Shore Line Jct. and CEADAR. This means an Approach Limited in the preceeding block.
Mike, how many trains run each way on the Springfield line each day? How many more can do so before two tracks will be needed?
There are about 7-10 Amtrak trains in each direction and there are 5 2 block passing sidings (one is slightly shorter than the others, and two are at the terminal ends of the line). There are also a smattering of P&W freight trains. Usually the P&W gets the intermediate sidings, because Amtrak trains are timed to pass eachother at the terminal sidings. I have never been delayed by having to wait for another train in my 4 Vermonter trips and my many other trips between Meriden and New Haven.
OK. Your experience is that the current tracks can handle the current traffic. I was wondering how much room there is for increased traffic before they have to double track. Any idea?
Just a thought here, and it bothers me as a rail man: unless things have changed since I was there last the CTA L trains slow for grade crossings...I believe they have to wait for a signal to clear. They didn't on Lake when they still an street level years ago and had manually protected crossings. The Ravenswood and Douglas lines have automaic gates but the trains still slow. Why?
/*Maybe Amtrak got sick of grade crossing accidents. It makes no sence for Amtrak to waste millions of dollars in damage and risk lawsuits just to prove a point.*/
There's no point to prove, nor is there any liability on Amtrak's part. Besides, what makes 25mph so special? you casn get killed by a train at those speeds too. In any case, there's plenty of other crosings that they *don't* slow at.
/*The Berlin PSR is beause of the hand operated MofW/local delivery sidings and related turnouts.*/
So? The LIRR's got a few hand throwns in places where the MAS is 80.
/*Its only about 1000 feet long and has the added benifit of making the Berlin station platform safer.*/
It doesn't matter how long it is, the acceleration of Amtrak's diesels is so hopelessly slow that it's a drag on the schedule. You slow from 80 to 60, to accelerate again to 80 is a slow process. That's partly why the New Haven electrified the shore line in the first place.
/*The 45mph speed north of New Haven is
not a PSR, its the speed enforced by the signal rules. Trains usually make turnouts at both Shore Line
Jct. and CEADAR. This means an Approach Limited in the preceeding block. */
Why not just install a modern, high speed interlocking, like MN, the LIRR, and most of the industrialized world does? Crawling at 45mph for 5 miles is *pathetic*
The cost of installing a hi speed turnout at CEADAR would probably exceed the amount of revenue the line generates in a year. And for what, so you can save 3 minutes? Also most turnouts on MN or the LIRR are 45mph. They only use the hi-speed ones for things like converging main lines, not passing sidings. I am just as upset about the PSR's in Meriden and Wallingford, but you have to admit that in those town you have the RoW cutting right through the centre of town with no fences and lots of grade crossings. All it takes is 12 stupid people to slap Amtrak with a multi-million dollar award after they "hartlessly" sent their trains through town at maximum speed even after many similar accidents. I think that 25 mph is a bit excessive and something like 45 would have been better. Also EMD F40's can accelerate better then GE Genesis units.
BTW what is the max speed on the line? Cab signaling should allow for +80 mph speeds. I usually watch the Engineer put it in Run 8 and leave it there until the next stop or PSR.
/*And for what, so you can save 3 minutes?*/
3 minutes here, 2 there, 4 in another place, 5 over there, 1 up there, 3 down there. Not much. Woah, that all added up to 15 minutes. 15 minutes faster would be a LOT on that line.
/*Also most turnouts on MN or the LIRR are 45mph.*/
Huh? Only for the diverging route. But in the case of the one I'm thinking of above New Haven, it's 45mph no matter which way you go through it.
/*They only use the hi-speed ones for things like converging main lines, not passing sidings.*/
Because the LIRR has few passing sidings and most are located in or near stations, where speeds are slow anyway?
/*I am just as upset about the PSR's in Meriden and Wallingford, but you have to admit that in those town you have the RoW cutting right through the centre of town with no fences and lots of grade crossings.*/
So?
The LIRR barrels through NHP at 80, through Mineola at 80. Minimal or no fencing there. Oh yeah, in plenty of other places too.
/*I think that 25 mph is a bit excessive and something like 45 would have been better.*/
Even 45 is stupidly slow, but would be less of a problem because of the stops that most trains make there.
/*Also EMD F40's can accelerate better then GE Genesis units*/
And both of them have laughably slow acceleration pulling anything more than 2 cars. Heavyweight, low power diesel suck for stop and go service. They just do. It's the laws of physics. Of course, if Amtrak would invest in the same, m,opdern, lightweight, high power equipment that other countries have, this wouldnt' be a problem.
/*BTW what is the max speed on the line?*/
80.
/*Cab signaling should allow for +80 mph speeds.*/
There's no crossingless strightaways that are long enough to allow diesels to get running any faster. Not to mention the track is in lousey shape.
/* I usually watch the Engineer put it in Run 8 and leave it there until the next stop or PSR. */
Because that's all you have to do with an F-40. They can barely get up to 100mph when pulling a train, and their max speed is 103 anyway.
It's not like an ALP-44 where the guy has to keep it in Notch *3* or *4* to keep it from overspeeding and popping the main breaker (100mph - a bell goes off in the cab and the guy panics when that happens too)
Once you're rolling along, HP = Speed. The more you got, the faster you go. That's why high speed lines are all electric.
That said, I think a lightweight DMU with a decent amount of power would be able to get up to 100 in a short amount of time. Combine with a tilt system of some sort, and you could have 2 or 4 car "mini acelas" running all over the place. Make them light and fast, and pop out 20 or so sets, and you could get some real progress in the US...
BTW - does anyone know if anyone makes a diesel wankel engine? It'd high power:weight, small size, and potentially quieter/lower vibration, seems to make it a natural for rail apps...
15 minutes faster would be a LOT on that line.
15 minutes is peanuts. On a normal car commute you can blow 15 minutes if you get the lights wrong.
Huh? Only for the diverging route. But in the case of the one I'm thinking of above New Haven, it's 45mph no matter which way you go through it.
I'll need to review the line the next time I take the train.
It's not like an ALP-44
Oh, that's real fair. Compare a 1995 electric with 7000hp with a 1982 diesel with 3000. Now that you have the apples and oranges out try making a fruit salad.
The LIRR barrels through NHP at 80, through Mineola at 80. Minimal or no fencing there. Oh yeah, in plenty of other places too.
Well its obvious that the people on Lon Guyland have some capasity to learn. The residents in Wallingford and Meriden keep throwing themselves in front of trains. I think there's a point at which we should just give them their pryic victory. Grade crossing accidents hurt Amtrak than being 10 minutes faster helps them.
Not to mention the track is in lousey shape.
The track looks no worse than the local tracks on the SEPTA R7 Trenton line. SEPTA MU's frequently break 80 mph and they are only running on CWR laid on wooden ties, just like the Springfield Line.
Of course, if Amtrak would invest in the same, m,opdern, lightweight, high power equipment that other countries have, this wouldnt' be a problem.
Solid, reliable, diesel locomotives that can take on adverse weather and constant abuse just come a little heavier. If you want to buy more "De Glenn" Atlantics that fall appart as soon as they are subjected the harsh realities of American railroading be my guest. Just remember that no matter how light a train is, its top speed is zero when it's broken down.
Have you ever been to Europe and ridden on their DMU's? I rode some in France and they are noisy, smelly, bouncy, cramped and slow. After all when you're cutting weight you can't really have a powerful engine. Lets compare a DMU to an SUV:
Light DMU || SUV
Top Speed: * ||
Comfort: || *
Ride: || *
Safety: || *
Acceleration: tie
Do chores: || *
Climate: || *
Real Train || SUV
Top Speed: * ||
Comfort: * ||
Ride: * ||
Safety: * ||
Acceleration: || *
Do chores: || *
Climate: tie
You can see why the Real train is the better choice.
/*15 minutes is peanuts. On a normal car commute you can blow 15 minutes if you get the lights wrong. */
Heh. You're funny. Amtrak just blew 2 billion to make the shore line a whopping 27 minutes faster, via acela express. Apparently, a few minutes matter. What planet are you living on that you don't think hopping 15 minutes off a 50 miles stub line is "peanuts"?
/*I'll need to review the line the next time I take the train. */
If you did, you'd see how moronic it is.
/*Oh, that's real fair. Compare a 1995 electric with 7000hp with a 1982 diesel with 3000. Now that you have the apples and oranges out try making a fruit salad. */
Ummm..... The ALP-44 was basically an updated AEM-7, which is basically an Americanized version of the RC-4, which dates to the early 70's.
/*Well its obvious that the people on Lon Guyland have some capasity to learn.*/
And Weslyan students can't spell! *duck*
/* The residents in Wallingford and Meriden keep throwing themselves in front of trains. I think there's a point at which we should just give them their pryic victory. Grade crossing accidents hurt Amtrak than being 10 minutes faster helps them. */
Bullshit. i could care less if some jerk can't obey laws. IMHO, they should just hose the front of the loco down, get a new engineer, and keep going. I don't see why there's a lawsuit or any 'police investingation' involved.
HELLO!!!!! Trains run on *gasp!* train tracks!!!! If you walk on train tracks, you'll GET HIT BY A TRAIN!!!
Funny how that works...
/*The track looks no worse than the local tracks on the SEPTA R7 Trenton line.*/
It rides worse than the LIRR, for crying out loud.
/* SEPTA MU's frequently break 80 mph and they are only running on CWR laid on wooden ties, just like the Springfield Line. */ And I've been on the Trenton line -the track's in much better shape than the Springfield line. you keep moaning about the ride qualities of DMUs, yet the Springfield line is in such shitty shape that you can't read, write, or do anything on the train besides sit and hang on.
/*Solid, reliable, diesel locomotives that can take on adverse weather and constant abuse just come a little heavier.*/
Funny, the F-40 has had a long reputation for snow ingestion problems, as have that P-32s. The AEM-7s, instead, do absolutely fine in the snow. I guess that means the 110 ton AEM-7s are heavier than the 150 or so ton F-40s?
/* If you want to buy more "De Glenn" Atlantics that fall appart as soon as they are subjected the harsh realities of American railroading be my guest.*/
"Harsh realities of American railroading"? Funny, i never recall in ANY of my physics classes reading "The laws of physics are different when applied to American trains" Oh yeah, BTW, the M-1s have gone 30 years without a rebuild, and are still dealing with the LIRR's infamous maintenance through neglect. Care to guess how much an M-1 weighs?
Or, better yet, why not take a few engineering courses and realize how stupid you sound bragging about how overweight American trains are.
/* Just remember that no matter how light a train is, its top speed is zero when it's broken down. */
And Amtrak never breaks down? Practically ewveryone i know has a story about how they took Amtrak and the locomotive broke.
/*After all when you're cutting weight you can't really have a powerful engine.*/
Huh?
Most aircraft have engines with horsepower to weight ratios that are insane. Do you realize a)how much horsepower a 100,000 lbs thrust jet engine generates and b)how light they are? Though you can't make an exact coversion, You're talking about 60 or so *thousand* horsepower in a package that weights less than a 645 prime mover.
Wait, that can't be. You just said it's impossible.
/*You can see why the Real train is the better choice. */
Because it's slower, heavier, more expensive, dammages track, breaks down more, and cost more to run?
Funny, I always thought those were disadvantages.
Yo, Phil, Tell your compadres over in your part of UTC to bring out TURBO TRAIN II (UIC frame rigidity specs, BEEG, I MEAN REALLY BEEG P&W TURBINE ENGINE,AND A 250 MPH TOP SPEED, My piece of UTC will supply the air conditioning compressors. (Heck, all the rest of Amtrak's compressors are "ours".
Gah..... gas turbine powered trains. I could go on for hours why they're a bad idea :)
IMHO, they should just hose the front of the loco down, get a new engineer, and keep going.
I used to think about that, but aside from the reports etc. that should follow a fatal accident, there is quite often heavy damage to the track bed and locomotive. No matter what you need to get someone out there to inspect things (locomotive, rolling stock, track, crossing equipment, signaling, etc). Usually you'll have to somehow detach the car from the front of the locomotive or get it off the RoW. No matter what happens its going to take an hour or 2 to get everything ready to move. In most cases filling out reports is not the limiting factor. It is interesting to note that sometimes RR's won't even spring for a new engineer due to cost or availibility. It could take 2 hours alone to wake up an engineer and get him out and ready to work.
It rides worse than the LIRR, for crying out loud.
I've always thought the ride was fine.
Funny, the F-40 has had a long reputation for snow ingestion problems, as have that P-32s. The AEM-7s, instead, do absolutely fine in the snow. I guess that means the 110 ton AEM-7s are heavier than the 150 or so ton F-40s?
PLEASE STOP COMPARING ELECTRICS TO DIESELS! We all know electrics are better and lighter and faster. If you want to bust on the F40/P## fine an example of a diesel locomotive that embodies all of your features.
Harsh realities of American railroading"? Funny, i never recall in ANY of my physics classes reading "The laws of physics are different when applied to American trains"
The physics are the same, the railroads are different. Weather is harsher in the states. Locomotives must preform in bitter cold, extremes in heat and extremes in humidity. Coaching stock is heavier and the track isn't as manicured. Non-Americanized Europian locomotives would fall appart just like they have in past trials.
I believe the M1's were build by Budd. Budd had a unique gift for reliability and light weight that went out with the company. Today's builders would save weight and costs by using cheap, lo-stregnth materials that would easily wear out or break.
? Though you can't make an exact coversion, You're talking about 60 or so *thousand* horsepower in a package that weights less than a 645 prime mover.
Yeah, and they suck down fuel like a hoover and the power is delivered in a completely unfinished form.
So, please tell me about a good diesel locomotive and any one of your experiances riding on a DMU.
/*I've always thought the ride was fine. */
Ahh, I don't enjoy being treated like a ping pong ball. Though granted a lot of that is due to the lousey PioneerIII truck design.
/*Fine an example of a diesel locomotive that embodies all of your features. */
I know it's dated, but the Deltics were, IIRC, fairly light and high powered. but, you're not likely to see examples of high power/light weight diesels because most everywhere outside the US uses electrics for high(er) speed services.
/*Weather is harsher in the states. Locomotives must preform in bitter cold, extremes in heat and extremes in humidity.*/
Beats me, the RC-4s did well in Sweeden, and it gets awfully cold and snowy there. Their AEM-7 version does well on the NEC, much better than the E-60 ever did.
/*Coaching stock is heavier and the track isn't as manicured.*/
That's a mild way of saying "The equipment is overweight and the track is shitty." But then again, lightweight Talgo units seem to hold up just fine, much to BOMBardier's dismay. As for poor track, well, that's the American way, slap it together cheaply and forget about it. That's why eveyrthing in this country falls apart so quickly.
/*Non-Americanized Europian locomotives would fall appart just like they have in past trials. */
The RC-4 did well in Amtrak's tests, as did the X-2000 and the ICE. oh yeah, and Talgos...
/*I believe the M1's were build by Budd. Budd had a unique gift for reliability and light weight that went out with the company.*/
No, it was simply Budd's engineers had talent (and permitting management), which is sorely lacking today in the US rail market. There's nothing magical about the M-1 - it's simply a well engineered lightweight, yet strong, body design. As much as people hate them, they were a remarkably well designed car, even if they are overcomplicated and have a few annoying "features". Not perfect, but still good. It's a shame that the M-7 won't be as light.
/* Today's builders would save weight and costs by using cheap, lo-stregnth materials that would easily wear out or break. */
Maybe. Materials should have improved by quite a bit over the last few decades. Anyway, it's the US style management and US management philosiphies that cause this. We equate cheap with value, as opposed to recognizing that a railcar that costs 50% more to buy, but lasts 2x as long, is 30% lighter, and is more reliable, is a much better deal.
There's nothing wrong with light weight equipment - provided it's strong and well designed. nor should it ride poorly - truck design has improved leaps and bounds over the last 30 years.
The M-7s have a 125,000lb weight limit to them, I believe. That's a good start, but a bit heavy, when you realize that anM-1 was 95,000 or so, and could likely be built even lighter, and *stronger* today.
/*Yeah, and they suck down fuel like a hoover and the power is delivered in a completely unfinished form.*/
Actually, lots and lots and lots of air moving at moderate speed is the ideal form to move an airplane. And, at cruise conditions, modern turbofans are surprisingly efficient. It's just that flying takes a LOT of power, no matter how you cut it.
/*So, please tell me about a good diesel locomotive and any one of your experiances riding on a DMU.*/
Ok, I'll admit to have not ever been on any DMUs (my Europe trip is in another year or so...), but, I still maintain that there's no reason for them to be any worse than a locomotive hauled train.
As for EMUs, I grew up on them, and I can tell you that in terms of performance, any of the M series or any of the Silverliner or Arrows simply kicks the crap out of anything Amtrak runs, save for the Acela expresses. Lots of power and light weight means you can accelerate quickly, and reach high speeds. And perform even when a car or two are down. I've heard the M-1s can maintain 80mph on level track with half the cars dead. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they really can. Compare that with an F-40 and 8 cars, which struggles to get up to 80, and can't even hit 100.
To sum up my feelings on some of those matters: years back MOST American engineered things on railroads here worked and served for years and years. When European ideas were tried they failed because they couldn't hold up to the severity of US rail service.
Pity how the tables have turned.. we've become a nation of money changers, shrinks,doctors , lawyers, counselors; but why can't anything that runs on trolley or 3rd rail be engineered here and be an immediate success?
Between light rail on up thru Amtrak seems everything is either foreign made or engineered or it doesn't do well.I'll make an exception for Chicago..I never hear of many problems with their fleet.
Will the likes of the Low-V [etc], GG-1 and others..ever be seen again, allowing of course for new technology?
I *love* these stories! :)
I'll refrain from detailing my experiences on Montana Rail Link; I'm sure the big freight roads aren't much better. But man your story sounds all too familiar. I'm not saying every trip was like this, but too often. Things that having a little extra power available for one thing could cure. Like having one more helper crew at Livingston so some trains wouldn't have to wait 2 hours for one. Saving one train from a dogcatch [240 mile run]or outlawing, going dead, whatevr would pay for the helper's wages and move trains.
If our line were double tracked there wouldn't need to be any semi's on the Interstate here. Not to mention playing railroad instead of waiting games. Oh well, it was still fun for the most part. I always thought private management would be more efficient and have things so they'd roll, and pay off, as compared to public management. No better. Have to give the transit agencies credit for doing as well as they do, trust me. Single track? Horse and buggy day stuff.
I understand one difference between the R-36 Main line rebirds and the R-32 redbirds is that of the window design. But they look they same so are their any more differences??
I think you mean between the R36 Worlds Fair (7 line, but I believe some found their way to the 6) and R36 Mainline (2,4,5,6, and now 7) And I'm pretty sure the only real difference is the windows.
R32s are not redbirds. They are stainless steel, BMT-IND cars with courugations all over them, appearing on the A, C, E, G, N, and R lines. They are popularly refered to as "Brightliners".
:-) Andrew
FULL 10-car set of WF r36 redbirds on the 6
at Astor Place tonight.. about 8:30p..
Manual control for some reason on the 7:26 out of Friendship heading to Grosvenor. I had a Rohr, the doors closing lights weren't working. We were also restricted to 35 MPH between Friendship and Bethesda because of trackwork.
Looking in the FAQ's section, in "how to identitfy each car type", just about every car type has had an overhaul, except the two newest. Are the 62s and 68s eventually going to get overhauled? I would think it would be in the next few years. The 62s are almost 20 years old, and the 68's approaching 15.
:-) Andrew
Nah. No overhauls for them. They've been well maintained since day one so everything is working well and there's no need to replace the. Their appearance can be fixed up a bit but it won't need a general overhaul for that. They were 12 year SMSed recently. I'm not sure about the R32s though.
i think the r142's are coming up for a general overhaul, which should extend their lives at least another 6 months...
More like 6 days. Or should we count the extension of their lives in hours, minutes, and seconds? Are even smaller units necessary?
Bear in mind that this requires an assumption to be made that R142s were alive in the first place.
The question that should really be asked is: Is that assumption correct?
How do you determine if a subway car is alive? Some tourist may think so because it is talking but other than that...
The R-142 is GREAT and most hatred of it is nothing more than Pro-Repulsive Rustbird bias.
Once the Repulsive Rustbirds are gone, the R-142s will be here to stay, and all you will be able to do is cry about it!
WELL SAID, PORK! While the MTA may rush the cars out too fast, they are not crap...and the breaks NEVER squeel like the rustbirds. -Nick
Quite to the contrary, during my last R142A experience (c.f.
my post on New R142A whine) I observed significant brake squeal.
There were also two fluorescent tubes dark .. generally not a
significant event but it seems strange to have a dead bulb
already with so few hours in service.
install a railfan window on them & i will go absolutely silent!!
I hear they are going to install a RFW on the R142s. Right after they install a brain in you
ok mr " subwaysurf " next time i am in nyc say that to my face in
person & not hiding behind your computer screen !!
YAWN
Do I, once again, hear the faint sounds of knuckles gently dragging on the pavement? A mind is a terrible thing to waste, salaam.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste, salaam.
One cannot waste that which one does not have.
Pork, salaam must have a mind although I'm suprised it generates enough power to make his feet move.
leave my tired aching feet alone! they are not bothering you !!
anyway the are my feet last, time i walked around the rose bowl
they worked fine thank you !!
!! best on topic post of all time on subtalk !!
i know at least two mortormen who will let me shoot from inside the
transverse cab so dont have a cow man !!!
for the umpteenth time, THERE IS A RAILFAN WINDOW!!!! when are u gonna put on ur glasses and look straight in front of u?
2 windows ( a transverse cab with newspaper blocking the view ) etc..
is no railfan window view !!
Is a railfan window with a view a do-or-die must-have feature?????????? Oh please. Just take the next one.
for me, no. unfortunately for the others yes i rather sit and look out the side window.
its a railf an window. you don't always have to be up at door where the cab is. if you can see straight through then its a railfan window. maybe not from your time but it is one
Well, like KHI said, there is a railfan window...I guess we can all remove the killfile cuz ur gonna be silent from now on. -Nick
lol
what also comes with the break squeal on the R-142A is harsh stopping and a quaky shaky rattling car body. but its still a good piece of machinery
Sounds like we now know why the trucks are off at 207 ... oh shades of a previous purchase ... loose shoes or cracked trucks? Hmmm.
Nothing so nefarious. Simply a problem with the bracket arm
that supports the trip cock assembly.
Damn! Another great conspiracy theory all blown to hell. :)
And no deja vu all over again.:-)
Could be a bad ballast, not a bad bulb. 1 in 250 ballasts are no good from the manufacturer. THey may last only a few weeks, if they operate at all.
-Hank
This is true. There is a certain defect rate for bulbs and ballasts and on a subway car order as large as the R142 orders there will undoubtdly be a few bad bulbs and ballasts that have to be changed out.
And I was on a R142A on the #6 whose wheels wept and cried all the way from 3rd Avenue-138th Street to Elder Avenue; every little turn it would screech and squeal - this was the #7211-7220 trainset. Especially noisy was car #7212 - sounded just like its R21 predecessor.
wayne
Maybe that's the MTA's little secret -- they really just took the R-21/22s out of service, hid them away at some top secret Kawasaki facility for 15 years and just put new stainless steel exteriors and wall panels on them and stuck an air-conditioner on top. And the Bombardier cars are probably just refurbished R-17s in disguise.
If one of them shows up in the near future with a sliding door and drop sash or rotating circular front window, then the truth will be out :-)
Makes you wonder how it took the curve at City Hall Loop - it must have been one hell of an aria!
A killfile SO BIG.. it needs a role call.
Pro-Scrapper.
yeah why don't we scrap the R-142's. let the redbirds run and rust to @#$!% and then the City of NY will not have anything to go to work in. if you were the head of the MTA, your biases against anything new would put the whole system in turmoil.
..and then came an r-32..
I like the 142s too. I don't they nearly deserve the bashing they're getting. BUT I like the redbirds too. They are attractive cars, and at least most of them are still workable. I sort of think they should keep the best of the redbirds on reserve for when they need a spare train or two.
:-) Andrew
That's what they ARE doing.
They don't want to repeat the R-30 scrapping debacle.
Of course, I don't find the Redbirds to be appealing cars, and I agree with that crying child (see message crossposted from nyc.transit) who cried that they had to get on the old and ugly car.
Oh! I didn't know that! Good news.
:-) Andrew
"and at least most of them are still workable"
Interesting posting. There are two words you don't see together in the same sentence, too often. Actually, they are still workable but body corrosion has doomed them. The best of the lot will be remain in service, however while 40 - 60 will be held for emergencies.
Why can't they just paint the R142s red?
why can't you dye a pigs hair?
Why am I brought into this all of a sudden?
Why paint them? The whole point of stainless steel is that it doesn't rust.
The whole point of paint is to rustproof metal, color is just an available side effect.
The MBTA 01800 are stainless steel but still paint 1/2 red
maybe because where ever there is paint there will be rust
The MBTA 01800 are stainless steel but arestill painted 1/2 red
Then someone has more money than brains.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The B-IV Broad Street Fleet is painted, yet they are stainless steel. If it makes the car look better, then paint.
I'd prefer the money be spent on making the car reliable and the interior pleasing and comfortable than on something stupid like useless outside paint.
I suppose the MTA could buy cars with red-tinted stainless steel as part of the supplemental R-142 order and come up with a new "mini fleet" of Redbirds, though I'm not sure how much more Bombardier would want for the colorization process.
Red-tinted stainless steel. Now that's something I would like to see.
oh yeah? i though it was just adhesive on top of the original stanless steal surface. it can' t be paint because stainless steal cannot hold paint to well. it would end up chipping in a few months.
With the right primer paint could stick to S.S. The adhesive is being used on the regional rail because it would be hard to get that red-to-blue transitional effect by hand.
Y'Know, I like those trains, and I'd love to see more of them around. The train is comfortable, smooth, and quieter than those awful rustbirds! Whoever likes those red trains, which, ironically were NOT red when first manufactured in the 60s, well, either go into the past with a time machine, hopin you never come back, OR get used to these new cars and cry until the cows come home...because the redbirds are going.. going...still going... y'get th' point, right? Get over it, rustbird fans! The new trains are great and here to stay! R142 and R142A! Get used to it now because you'll hear a lot about them from now on!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
--CWalNYC )8^)
I agree
I sense a lot of hostility here -- and BTW, the R-29s and the R-33/36 MLs were Redbirds when first delivered, while the R-26/28s were not.
Only they were finished in Tartar Red instead of the Fox Red used now.
With the original New York City Transit System logos on the outside. Very noticable through the bullpen gap slot as the rolled along the Woodland line outside Yankee Stadium in the mid and late 1960s -- you could always tell the R-29/33/36s from the R-17/21/22/26-28s even from 150 yards away by their red paint jobs.
"-- you could always tell the R-29/33/36s from the R-17/21/22/26-28s even from 150 yards away by their red paint jobs."
Add to this the distinctive grab bars painted yellow.
Bill "Newkirk"
i totally agree with you but, you're wasting the poor energy in your fingers. no matter how much you tell these guys they just won't get it. its like telling sylvester to stop eating Tweety when you know he won't quit. they are just gonna have to learn to appreciate or quit being railfans. a true railfan shouldn't have such hatred against any rolling stock . you may not have to like it but you have to accept it .
they are just gonna have to learn to appreciate or quit being railfans. a true railfan shouldn't have such hatred against any rolling stock
Does my dislike of Geo Metros mean I'm not a gearhead?
there is a strong difference between hate and dislike. hate is like saying you have zero tolerance for something. dislike is like saying you don't like something and wouldn't own something but you could tolerate its presence in ur case, if u mean gearhead in a bad way , then ur not
By "gearhead," I mean automotive enthusiast. There are plenty of gearheads who "hate" certain makes and put bootleg stickers of Calvin urinating on their respective marques on their cars. So it is with the great R26/R146 debate.
I think the gist here is that some of us are expressing our dislike of the new cars, not saying we're going to stop being railfans because they exist (though their existence will make the hobby less pleasing). There are plently out there who dislike the Redbirds for being too "new-fashioned" as well as those who despise them for being old and dirty, but they still carry on with their lives, just as the anti-R142 faction will. A railfan doesn't have to like everything that runs on rails, just as a gearhead doesn't have to like everything on tires, and a bus foamer doesn't have to like Thomas Saf-T-Liners.
I'll bring one of my 3000 series WMATA cars and try to squeeze it into an IRT tunnel.
Actually, I will live, but if you insist, I can bash the MBTA Green Line and the R44/R44 cars.
Say, do you want to trade subway cars? I'll take the R-142 fleet over the M-4 Market-Frankford fleet anyday, besides if we did trade, we'll have Kawasakis on the MFL.
I'll look at your M-4 cars on Friday, then we can talk.
the M-4's are that bad? i haven't gotten a chance to ride them. since my uncle moved to south Phila. i can' t gain access to ride those things (contraptions in ur case) give me some details on that thing. whats the bad stuff?
What's the bad stuff? Doors either opening on the wrong side or not open at all, trucks that crack, seats are falling apart, less seating, less space, a narrow anticlimber, and a hinged trainline door that hits you if you're sitting at that seat when people do their carhopping. As far as looks are concerned, they are very ugly. I hope that answers your question.
brand new & already breaking down & ready for scrap !!
Aren't they supposed to be putting hexagonal wheels on them and isn't GE/Buffalo Transit supposed to replace their HVAC compressor cradles with plastic ones?
wayne
Not to mention spur-cut bull and pinion gears and R-1/9 compressors.
Not to mention spur-cut bull and pinion gears and R-1/9 compressors.
Oh, and a new truck from Rockwell International.
The car classes get shuttled through smaller programs called SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System) every so often. The scope of the work is to replace or repair car components, that show signs of wear and tear. Case and point: Right now 207th Street Shop is in the process of performing SMS on the R-38 and R-40 car classes. It is not a gigantic GOH program, but something smaller, to extend the lives of these cars.
-Stef
Coney Island Shop are doing the R32 and R40 Slants and this point in time.
Robert
Right you are! Let us not forget the other car classes that also get occasional maintenance, whether it be a redbird or an R-62.....
Gotta tell you, I think the shops are quite incredible in the work that they do. If it weren't for the dedicated shop personnel, fleet maintenance wouldn't be as good as it is now. This I do believe.
-Stef
"It is not a gigantic GOH program, but something smaller, to extend the lives of these cars."
This question has probably been posted before, but how much longer is the TA looking to get out of R-32 thru R-44 cars? -Nick
With any luck they might get 50 years out of the 32s because of their all steel body. They're in pretty good shape considering their age. Other cars don't have all steel bodies, some have painted sections, whether it be an end like the 44, or the roof of the 38. Over the years, these portions are bound to deteriorate.
-Stef
All-stainless steel, that is. Budd really outdid themselves with the R-32s, building an outstanding product.
The R-32 is my personal fovorite subway car, especialy in it's as-delivered appearance with the blue side and end doors. Recently, I noticed several R-32's with new floors of black with white speckles. It would have been nice if the TA used the semi-checkerboard style of flooring similar to the R16, R17, R21/R22, R26, R27, R28 and R30 cars.
This question has probably been posted before, but how much longer is the TA looking to get out of R-32 thru R-44 cars? -Nick
It has, and I believe Train Dude has answered it. Since I don't remember the answer, however, I'll defer to him, or your research through the posts to find the answer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Weren't they supposed to put electronic destination signs on the R62/R62A cars?
- Lyle Goldman
"Weren't they supposed to put electronic destination signs on the R62/R62A cars?"
I dunno, Lyle...but they definitely should. Also, they could probably upgrade the cars to have electronic destination signs inside, and automated announcements like the R-142s. The same thing could be done on the R-68s, and maybe even the R-46s (even though they got electronic signs in their overhaul in '93). Remember, many of these cars will be won't be retired to at least the 2020s; may as well let them experience that 1/5 of the 21st century! -Nick
As far as an answer to the question of any general overhauls for the future, I would say the answer would be no. The GOH program was meant to bring the TA car fleet up to a state of good repair and boost the MDBF following the era of neglected maintenance. The TA has gone into a program called SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System) which means that every part that needs maintenance has a maintenance schedule and theoretically (yes theoretically) has parts replaced prior to failure. The thought of the powers that be was that this would obviate any future massive GOH programs.
You mentioned the Luminator electronic side destination signs on the R44 and R46 cars. These were first installed on R46 GOH cars. The R62, R62A and R68 cars were built to be simple to maintain cars to get the TA out of the bind it was in. Will they replace the current signs with electronic ones? I don't know except that it is an item not without some cost and engineering.
Greetings Greg! If you remember our dropped shoe beam incident, E-mail me.
I hope not! I hate those digital signs! Remember, the letters and numbers are supposed to be in a COLORED circle, and be legible from ALL angles, and a decent distance.
Down with the digital side signs!
:-) Andrew
You know, all you people who love the old cars better remember that old time rollsigns were colorless.
As for the lettering, they look exactly like a rollsign, only easier to change.
DOWN WITH ROLLSIGNS!
With the exception of R32s that had the pleasing green hued backlight.
:)
All cars from the R-16s thru the R-38s originally had green fluorescent backlighting in their signboxes. Eventually the green gave way to white, and then the cars which went through GOH had this feature disabled.
I also remember green backlit signs on the R-32s. Seeing "Coney Island" in green did it for me.
GE had made the green flourescent tubes custom for signage until the early 1970's when they were discontinued. Nobody else made them and the whites were too bright. That's what happened to them. In the old R1/9's, they had 25 watt light bulbs behind the signs. You rarely saw any of those replaced and working.
DOWN with the illegible R32 bulkhead signs! I swear I saw an "R" Saturday at Union Tpke that appeared to say "P".
wayne
I'll second that. At least they show only one letter; otherwise RR would appear to be, well, you get my drift.
Beats the number 2 train!
(I know. I know. Someone else wrote that before.)
;-) Andrew
LOL....enough ppl do that in the subway already; no need for further encouragement!! :-) -Nick
You got that right.:-)
Are you sure it wasn't going non-stop to 8 Ave/34 St? :)
Aren't you happy that they at least left the R40 bulkhead signs intact?
BTW I still prefer the one piece roll signs on the R40S from pre GOH.
Heard a little while ago on KYW news radio that a woman running for an R5 at Narberth got her toes crushed. The story may be on kyw1060.com, but it isn't coming up as I type this.
It works now.
How stupid do you get? I guess the concept of "NEXT TRAIN" means very little to some people. Obviously they understand "train" since they seem to want to take the one that is right there, maybe we need to have all commuters take an English test before reaching the platform.
You might die before the next train arrives on SEPTA. Its sorta like Doctor Zhivago.
What do you mean by that? Narberth is very rich and safe, but also Very boring waiting for SEPTA's low frequency.
I was implying you would die of old age.
The Link
Here's the story in Saturday's Inkie; the woman was a dancer with Philadanco until she unsuccessfully ran for the train.
The Washington Post's latest article (Jan. 26) on the Green Line's problems was accompanied by a picture of a Green Line car which must have seemed like a joke to many an ex-New Yorker. The caption read "Morning commuters crowd into a Green Line train at the Waterfront stop." There must have been at least four or six inches to a foot or more of space between passengers. I think of "crowded" when you remain standing straight up without holding onto anything and the train lurches forward or stops suddenly.
Also, previous posters have pointed out the failure of DC Metro passengers to move away from the doors and into the middle of the cars. A response countered that they do this for fear of not making it to the door at their getting-off stop. This argument could apply anywhere, but people in other cities DO move to the middle of the car (yes, I know, sometimes very reluctantly).
We also have a car shortage and yes, people are stupid. I have been thinking that WMATA should get 4 doors on the next shipment of cars which is about to be ordered. Although its going to be hard for WMATA to break from tradition...
Now that is an excellent point. The spacing between the doors is WAY WAY WAY to large. You'd think they were doing the LIRR or a long haul. More doors means more standing room, which is what they need.
Car length?
Well,
Why?
I'm wondering why the TA finds it warranted to whip up a new "W" train on the West End. If the plan is to have it go up Broadway/7th Ave again, why not dust off the old "T" as it was known before 1967 when the "B" train came along.
Letters with two syllables a pain in the A train, imagine if they start a shuttle called the WW? I mean, even Elmer Fudd would get tounge tied.
Elmer Fudd, "where will I wait on weekdays for the WW train when I want to catch a wascally wabbit on the West End" Sufferin succotash!
Oh woe is we!
There isn't a U train so why is there a problem with "double-u?" Even though, "T" has a better sound to it. My guess is it was decided the West End should be W, meaning if there is a yellow T is on the roll sign, it can be used for the Brighton Local (T can stand for timely and tardy) to replace the D instead of a second Q. Or, NYC can adopt colors.
"This is the red line to 125th Street via Second Avenue, next stop, 79th. Stand in, stand clear."
Yes! We should bring back double letters so we can have both a UU and W train to confuse people! And you thought that having AA and A or QB and QJ together was hard.
They should have a W train to get more funding
In honor of our new dictator george W. bu$h He'll slash the funding anyway.
so! with the funding cutoff-like welfare is etc.. the "redbirds" will be around a lot longer !!?? no funding, redbirds hang around longer!! ( aint that right folks ? ).........??........!
Sorry. The Redbird's watery grave and the R-142s are already fully funded.
No...you're wrong...as ususal
And in a related story...
The owner of the NYS license plate with a single W was told that he could not have it renewed. Apparently, some bigwig in state govt has ordered it.
I think that if the FATCAT PUKE wants it, HE SHOULD PAY THE RIGHTFUL OWNER FOR IT (free market) LET THE AUCTION BEGIN
I think if he wants it that badly, he should get it -- along with plenty of news coverage so that the voters can send this jerk back to the oblivion he deserves.
NY State Supreme Court has already ruled in favor of the citizen, and the DMV has relented prior to further litigation. But he'll probably get a few more tickets.
Thing is, NYS is issuing new plates to everyone, and he may not have requested renewel of his personalized plates.
-Hank
There was a case in RI ("the lower your plate number, the higher your social status") several years ago, where someone sold the license plate "7" for some obscene amount, $20,000 or so. Someone else who wanted it started a legal battle, and the plate finally ended up in a drawer at the DMV. I think someone at the DMV finally ended up with it on his car, after the plate sat for a couple years.
Nah. Let's keep it the 'W' as in 'whiny Democrats' since that's what it'll be dragging around anyway. Your guy got beat. Get on with your life.
By a 5to4 vote, OK
Ah, now that's the spirit!!
There's always next time. What goes around comes around.
I demand a recount. I also demand a federal investigation. I was not allowed to vote. I have been disenfranchised!
-Hank
You'll get to vote again in 4 years -- MAYBE!!!
You mean it doesn't bother you that we have a horrible administration now that the Republicans have bullied their way into taking over the Presidency and both houses of Congress? Bush didn't even win fairly, as if so many people would be stupid enough to vote for him.
It's too bad Clinton didn't do more during his first two years of his Presidency, when the Democrats ruled Congress. Not that the Republicans wouldn't have ruined everything he did anyway.
- Lyle Goldman
Let's just say I have my reasons for voting Republican, foremost being that I consider myself a 'have' as opposed to a 'have not'. I became a 'have' by working for what I own, nothing was handed to me, and I'm not about to 'share'. What do I do for a living? I'm a TA conductor. Surprised by my attitude? Don't be. Many more where I came from. Now enough of this, back to transit issues.
"Now enough of this, back to transit issues."
good luck
Yes. Back to transit issues. Here's a transit issue, actually two transit issues: does W. think transit workers should be allowed to bargain collectively and what will he do about this example of creeping socialism?
I asked one of the officials after the hearing. As I figured, they are trying to use what they have and replace as few signs as possible. He told me all the R-68 signs are getting changed, and even if the new ones include "T", there still won't be any others (except for the white on the R-32/38's, but the train will probably use only 75 ft cars), but "W" will be on all the signs once the R-68 signs are replaced. I still wish they would do it, since the line could always use only 68's.
R-68's already have a W sign, although as a diamond not a circle.
No, only on signs that have already been replaced. The majority of them still have the diamond N that the W replaced. (Most of the 68-A,s do have the W though)
Eric, trust me on this, it's there. What might be throwing you for a loop is that the original R-68 side route signs are arranged in alphabetical order, as opposed to the replacement signs and the signs on the R-68A's, which are arranged reigonally (i.e. A,C,E,H - F,G,R - etc.). Original R-68 signs also contain readings for the BMT Eastern Division (J,L,M but no Z).
Well!
Elmer Fudd here again, with woll signs willfully wiggling into the decision making world, I still say "T" makes more sense.
Print up new woll signs, it's not fair to those of us with speech impediments.
T, west end line sure beats the worms out of W West End. T whymes with B, W whymes with Bubble You, and there's never been a bubble you train in the system.
There's been a T, even a TT train but never a W. I have put a call into Baba Wawa to the investigate the alphabetic scandal.
Tell those varmints to restore the T train to its former glory, I will not wide a Bubble You train!
Wespectfully yours,
Elmer T. Fudd
When you said W West End, you showed that W makes sense since West End starts with W!
Pork? If it's Porky Pig, I think I may know you from work!
Maybe a poem will drive home my protest.
T is train
W is for west
My mighty brain says
that if it ain't gonna be B
Then it sure as heck better be T!
Elmer T. (as in T West End Express) Fudd
"W" = "West End"
"J" = "Jamaica"
"M" = "Myrtle Ave el to Metropolitan Ave in Middle Village"
"Q" = "Queens" ...whoops
I'm told that 'Q' was Brighton.
-Hank
And for the last eleven years, the "Q" has terminated at "Q"ueensbridge. OTOH, "T" was Astoria/West End. Are we using mnemonics or not?
The original QT and QB went to Queens (Astoria).
Indeed they did. Only they never ran at the same time. The QT ran at the same time the Q did (Mon-Fri 6 AM-7 PM) while the (pre-Chrystie St.) QB ran when the other two weren't operating (evenings, nights, and all day on weekends).
Not. Never were.
-Hank
Then T it is! :)
Didn't they have a T train long ago before it went like a good five cents ice cream cone? Why the hell are they bringing it back? And a W train? Whose idea was that? Doesn't the subway have enough trains already? It would seem so with every southern division train waiting with drooling tongues for their chance to screw the other and get over the Manny B.
I think it was still the 3 when ice cream comes were 5¢, but AFAIK (I've only been in NYC since 1996, almost 30 years since its demise) the T was West End-Broadway Express, and to Astoria in the 1960s, until Chrystie St opened and the B went to West End. The W, if you haven't been following, will be West End-Broadway Express-Astoria when the Manhattan Bridge service changes take effect and the B has a new south terminus at 34 St/6 Ave.
No B in Brooklyn? Too bad. Another lackey to the Sea Beach bites the dust. Could the D be next?
The D goes too.
But big deal. The B and D were always just IND lines extended into BMT territory. The N, Q and R are the real BMT lines. So is the M, but its "home" is in another part of the BMT.
Right Pork! But remember, the route that the D uses once was part of the #1 Brighton Express, and the B route was the #3 West End. When the Chrystie Street connection came about in 1967, they gave the BMT lines letter designations along with the Ind. lines. Some of us old timers still have old loyalties to the old designations, such as Brighton Express Bob #1, and yours truly, Sea Beach Fred #4.
Apparently the person (people) responsible for route naming is an out-of-towner. Anyone who has lived in New York City and rode the West End Line before the Chrystie Street Connection was placed into service knew that this line was referred to as the "T". If anyone reading this message has a pre-1967 subway map, please send to the TA.
That's stupid.
The W is already on the rollsigns and is already yellow, why waste money on railfan fantasies?
The West End line was known as the #3 but in the early 60's, letter designations were assigned to the BMT lines. The West End had the T and TT. When Christie/Grand Street opened the BB 6th Ave Local became the B 6 th Ave express extending from 34th Street into Brooklyn from 168th St. It should be noted that the TT continued to exist as the late night and weekend shuttle on the West End to 36St/4th ave when the B service was not running. For years many of the roll signs on the R-32/36's had an "iron on" patch over the BB changing it to B.
When 24 hour service to 57th Street/6th Ave. started, the TT was pretty much retired, although when shuttle service was used to 36th St again in the future, it was simply the B shuttle in Brooklyn and a seperate B shuttle in Manhattan. I believe at rush hour for years there were alternating trains to 168/Wash Hts and 57th Street. That was in the pre-M days when some B's would begin or end their runs at Bay Parkway.
As for changing roll signs and the expense, the point is that it was poor planning in the first place that deleted these routes from the signs. The larger picture is to create an everlasting letter designation system for all letters of the Alphabet given the MTA's plans to add routes in the future. It's a band-aid approach to things like this that caused the Transit Authority to waste millions over the years.
Spend the money, do it right and have the versatility to change, add and delete routes without running out of letters to use, or using letters that should be a "second" choice. Virtually all letters in use are single syllable letters, A,B,C,D,E,F,G, etc. and easy to pronounce. W is a stupid letter to use in my opinion because its not foreign language friendly to many users of the subway who speak little or no English. It's not simply a railfan or nostaglia issue, it's common sense and good long range urban planning.
Now, what track is the "T" train running on to Coney Island?
WestEndExpress
The original roll signs on the IND had all of the possible routes and were entirely consistent. Single letters for express; double letters for locals.
A and B originated in Washington Heights. A went on 8th Ave, B on 6th.
C and D came from the Bronx. C on the 8th, D on the 6th.
E and F were from Queens. E on the 8th, F on the 6th (Do I see a pattern here?).
G was the Brooklyn-Queens crosstown; H was Fulton.
Renaming all the lines would make sense -- in theory. Could you imagine the confusion during the changeover??
The interesting exception to the single/double letter scheme was the QB - QT, with the B or T standing for "Bridge" or "Tunnel", depending on the route.
Finally, in the BMT days nobody used the numbers -- you said the line name: Brighton, Culver, Sea Beach, or West End.
No one used the BMT numbers because --
1. Many of the cars -- e.g., the standards -- did not have roll signs that showed the numbers. As an Astoria user in the 1960s, I had no idea there were numbers.
2. The maps did not show the numbers.
3. Station signs did not show the numbers.
Number 2 and 3 above also applied to marker lights. No one ever told the passengers what these stood for.
It was a very half-assed system.
But the D Triplexes did have the roll signs that showed the numbers quite clearly. My train had the beautiful #4 on it until the TA gave it to the Lexington Line in the Sixties. I have a book called "When Brooklyn Was The World 1920-1957" that has a BMT map that shows the numbers of the lines. There were also a few of those maps printed in the newspapers at different times, and I was given one some time ago. I put in a place for safe keeping and now can't remember where the hell I put it.
Just a trivia item, the IRT route numbers were established before the 60's as the new cars came in the mid 50's; maybe it just wasn't much publicized as so many of the beloved prewar cars were still around.
As an occasional BMT rider for various reasons, Coney Island mostly, we'd just think of Brighton, Sea Beach, etc, or Jamaica or Canarsie;in the Bronx it was Woodlawn, Broadway, White Plains, etc.The IND was another story, there we spoke of D train etc.
The IND had letter markings right from the start, and this code was uniformly applied to all trains. That's the key. Had the BMT standards been equipped with front end signs, chances are the BMT number code would have caught on. They accounted for the majority of the company fleet, and since only a small percentage of rolling stock could display number markings, it never really caught on. As Big Ed points out, IRT and BMT riders simply referred to trains by the route they ran on. Fred, can you honestly remember anyone ever referring to the Sea Beach Express as the 4 train? Just curious.
Yes. My late uncle Tony was one, and my grandfather told me to differentiate between the two trains that bisected 62nd Street, three blocks from his 65th Street home. He referred to the B Standard West End as the plain train, while the Sea Beach was the special train because it had a number on it. He would refer to it as the 4 train. I didn't need the lesson. Little did he know that I had become completely entranced by the Sea Beach, a malady that, as you know, continues to this day. But yes, most everyone did refer to it as the Sea Beach. I called it the 4 train because it was the number of Duke Snider, my baseball hero from the late 40's through the mid 50's.
Interesting story.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
The "T" train as you know was once known as the number 3 West End express. Was there also a local in addition?
BMTJeff
I seem to recall seeing a "TT" sign in the '60s. I don't recall if it was a "real" line, or just a mistake, because it could have been confused with the "QT" Brighton Local via the tunnel.
I also recall that there were illuminated signs in the stations on the BMT Nassau Street line that showed what the train destination would be -- and they used only the name.
The Triplex units did have a number sign on the front and back. The side signs, however, did not show the numbers. I believe the roll signs showed the destination, the line, and an illuminated sign said either "bridge" or "tunnel".
The TT was a West End local that ran on weekends through the Nassau St. loop.
Hi,
The TT West End Local ran to Chambers Street in off peak hours on weekdays and as a shuttle to 36th Street/4th Av on weekends. The "T" had varying service times over the years.
If the QB/QT theory is used, then TT makes sense, via tunnel. The TT Never went over the bridge that I am aware of. Of course it could be argued they were following the IND with the use of double letters for local and single for express. With the letter T, guess we will never know, however, the TT really was viewed as a shuttle line by the regular West End passengers. Most folks had to change at 36th Street, Pacific or DeKalb to get to midtown.
The T train ran to Astoria at one time and then was scaled back to 57th/7th Av running express up the Broadway line.
Question, I'm sure someone out there knows this. Before the Christie Street connection opening in 1967, how was the "Grand Street" side of the bridge used. What trains used that side and where did they go to? Canal Street I assume?
Thanks for the wealth of knowledge out there.
WestEndExp
Before Christie Street, the BMT Broadway Express trains ran from Canal Street across the Manhattan Bridge north side. BMT Broadway Local trains ran through the tunnel. BMT Nassau Loop trains ran on the south side of the Manhattan Bridge (and through the tunnel). BMT Jamaica trains ran on the Williamsburgh Bridge.
In those days, the D ran on the Culver Line (now the F route). The BMT Broadway trains ran on the Brighton (now the D and the Q), Sea Beach (now the N) and West End (now the B and the M).
Your probably right that trains running on the Broadway would have used the north side of the Manhattan bridge. Trains that traveled on the south side of the bridge would have used the Nassau Street loop.
BMTJeff
The TT did run on the bridge in the reverse peak direction (like the Brighton specials) 1931 until 1959. It's on my Line History Page
Eric,
Thanks for the link to your most informative webpage. At least I see I am not alone in thinking the West End line should have been redesignated the "T" train, but the powers that be have chosen "W" and such is life.
I fondly remember the T and TT from the earliest memories I have of riding the New York subways. These letter designations were exclusively associated with the West End, and fairly consistent in their routing for many years.
What was neat about the TT on the roll sign, is that it was designated the West End Local. The B was 6th Ave Exp, the T I believe had Broadway Exp on the roll. But TT had West End which is the only roll sign I can recall with the actual West End designation.
If you know for sure, please post.
West End Express
The W is being used simply because most B division cars have this sign, wheras none carry a yellow T. The connection between the letter T and the West End line doesn't exist anymore outside of really old people and those of us who are subway affecianados.
I remember the T as west End. I'm 51. Am I reallly old?
I am in my late 30's and can remember the T and TT train! Trust me, I am not old.
"W" is not a good letter for reasons I already covered, ask some one who speaks predominately Spanish or Chinese to pronounce it and you will see what happens. This line covers many ethnic areas where English is the second language.
The reason it was chosen was by default because they couldn't print up roll signs with "T" or have the foresight to anticipate change.
The only reason there is even a "W" was for the Whitehall line which was proposed and this ain't no Whitehall line. It is not about old timers or train buffs or anything.
If there were no big deal, then why not just keep the B as West End and create the "W" for the 6th Avenue line since only old timers would remember the B as strictly a 6th Avenue line?
The biggest red flag in any Urban Planning book is lame excuses. Oh yes, my cat ate my homework!
Watch the closing doors on the double you train....yee gads!
Has everyone forgot the JFK express? Everyone talks of W being hard to pronounce. Imagine W.
And, as for putting W on 6th av., and B on west end: W is yellow, B is orange. Colors are based on the lines in manhattan. Further, you said: "Only old-timers would remeber the B as strictly a 6th av line" Who remebers it as strictly a West end line?
The West End was NEVER a strictly B Line, before it was a B it was a T/TT and before that the 3. Before the B it was the BB Rush Hours Only 6th Ave Local 34th St to Bedford Pk Blvd BX
When you refer to the "BB", you are going back to the days of the IND, circa 1940, when the Sixth Avenue Line opened, and a local service was created from Washington Heights to operate on the 8th and 6th Avenue IND.
The Northern Terminal was 168th, the southern one I am unsure about.
The BB was NOT a Rush Hours Only operation.
The BB never ran from 34th/6th Av. to Bedford Park Blvd. prior to the August 2001 service change.
Wanna go back before 1916 now? :)
In the late '50s, the BB operated from 168th Street to 34th Street (Sixth Ave) before the express lines were completed on Sixth from 34th to West 4th around 1960 or so.
The CC ran from Bedford Park Boulevard to ?? in rush hours. In non-rush hours, the AA ran from 168th St. to Chambers Street/Hudson Terminal.
My mistake, it terminated at 168th St. the CC ran to bedford Pk Blvd, both at the time were Rush Hour Only Trains, the AA did not run in rush hours. I remember as a kid, standing at 168th a train left to turn as a AA and came back as a BB, also the same thing at Hudson Term(WTC) watching the crew change from AA-to CC and visa versa after 630PM
The IND Express tracks went into service in 1967 or 1968.
OK. So as I understand it, the 6th Ave line was originally local only, right? How was it designed? Did they leave room in the center of the trackway (between 34th and 47-50th and between W 4th and Bwy-Lafeyette) for express tracks? Or was it just a standard two-track alignment. Southbound, there had to be both Cetral Park West (BB,D) and Queens Blvd (F) trains merging onto a single local track at 47-50. Was that today's outer track or inner?
Thank you.
:-) Andrew
The outer tracks at 34th and West 4th continued as the local tracks, stopping at 14th and 23rd.
For some reason, when the built the 6th Ave. line, they left a gap between 34th and West 4th on the express. The express trains are below the local tracks and PATH -- the presence of PATH on 6th Ave (from 33rd to 9th) is why you don't have a 4 track wide run from 34th to West 4th.
As I recall, the southbound F was on the outside platform at 50th, the inside platform at 42nd (the track "flipped"), and merged to the outside platform at 34th. The D was on the inside at 50th, and the outside at 42nd and 34th. All trains were on the outside at West 4th. I don't recall the northbound, except that the BB started from the inside northbound platform at 34th -- perhaps there were turnarond switches south of 34th??
So there were four tracks from 34th St on north?
:-) Andrew
The trains switched tracks Between 34 and 42nd. On weekends the F ran only as far as 34th(Nights) and the D was the only line South of 34th. (1954 on) Other times the F ran to Bdwy Laffayette or 2nd Ave. Before 1954 the F Ran to Church Ave, the D to either Hudson Term or Bdwy Laffayette. They kept switching Southern Terminals with the E. At 34th the trains always terminated on the Northbound Exp Track (BB-F)
When the Culver connection was placed in service on October 1954, the "D" was the service on the IND Smith-Street Line.
Prior to October 1954, "D" trains turned at Church Avenue, a proper terminal.
No, the F train ran to Brooklyn, the D train terminated at 34th Street or Second Avenue.
The switch was done because the TA didn't want to cut F trains to 10 cars (which they did anyway), nor did they want to extend the BMT platforms to 11 cars (didn't they have to extend the BMT platforms anyway?).
Prior to 1940, the E operated to Church, and prior to 1936, it was the A.
Prior to 1933, the line didn't exist.
From before October, 1954, I have pre-war R1-R9 units signaled "D 6AV-HOUSTON" and "D 6AV-BRONX EXPRESS" taken at Church Avenue in 1951 and 1954. I doubt if both pictures were of out of service or mis-labled units.
What was the IND service to Rockaway Avenue?
After October 1954, it was of course the "D".
Yes, BMT platforms were only designed for 8 67' AB units. They had to be extended in conjuction with the construction of a single track add-on to the el structure at Ditmas Avenue
The service to Church Avenue (at least in 1948) was "D".
"A" was 207 to Euclid.
"BB" was 168 to 34th/6th.
"CC" was Bedford Park to Hudson Terminal.
"D" WAS 205 TO CHURCH.
"E" was 169 to Broadway-Lafayette.
"F" was Parsons to Hudson Terminal.
"GG" was 71st to Smith/9th.
"HH" was Court to Hoyt (discontinued 1946).
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/1948_c.gif
As late as 1959, "F" service still did not run over the IND Subway in Southern Brooklyn.
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/1959_d.gif
Services were swapped a few times. I remember riding the D train with my mom and it said Chambers St, which I assume was before they had Hudson Terminal on the signs. I doubt much that they relayed north on the [thru] express tracks. This would be late 40's early 50's. Somebody gave me all the dates of service changes last summer but I forgot them.
I can't begin to say what and when terminals for the F and D but there were occasional changes. Just like later on the F went to Bway-Laff and the E to Hudson Terminal.
To add to another post, I can't remember SOP being to convert CC's to AA's after the rush hour. Maybe one train did so but as a C/R and M/M I never did.The CC came out of Concourse yard and the AA from Uptown.I was VERY lucky once to be on an R1-9 CC, an EXCELLENT fast set, in the early 70's that we converted to an A to fill a gap in service.It would have made the time well; alas only 8 cars and with the crowding at all the busy stops we ran later and later. A M/M/I met me at Jay asking if the train was OK , yes it was..too short though. Would I torpedo an R1-9// Never.
Before I forget I'll double up and reply to Brighton Bob too..I think that M/M was full of hot air saying they were going 65. MAYBE on a good long downgrade and coasting[by knocking out the dynamic brake; otherwise a SMEE wouldn't coast well]. But then if there were a good long downgrade as on CPW there were timers so scratch that idea. Beyond the "balancing speed " a traction motor becomes a generator..what was it on R10's-42's///50 MPH I think. Of course farther tapping of the field could increase the balancing speed...in other words normally you just can't go any faster.
Yes I agree with Selkirk that a good R1-9 could outrun an R10 on an express run. Despite the "balancing speed" being only 48 MPH. I have to give the R1-9 more points than any other equipment I knew well..they could go like hell, not beat the newer stock on acceleration but man could they roll. I even have to give them points over my beloved original IRT stock. I'm referring to a good train when you got one, and it did happen.
From a dead start I wouldn't give them the lead on any GOOD SMEE and I can tell you we outran many R10's like that but then the R10's were not at their best in the late 60's. they were improved later.
Whether I like the R32 or not I have to give them #1 spot for acceleration though.
I beg to differ, prior to the Culver Connection The F Terminated at Church Ave, the D did not go into Brooklyn until 1954. I used to take the Culver to get home sometimes to Kings Hwy
Wrong. The F did not terminate at Church Avenue. "D" was the service in 1954, both prior to and after the Culver connection in October.
If you took the Culver prior to 10/30/54, you were on a BMT service, and not an IND service.
If you took the D, you were on the IND service, if it was on or after 10/30/54.
In '57, I remember D service terminating at Kings Highway (at least that was the sign on the trains running at 59th street.
Where are you getting your information. I lived in that area, and the F went to Brooklyn prior to 1954. not the D. Yes prior to 54 the Culver was the BMT. I even have pictures with dates on it with the F at Smith 9th back in 1952, with a GG in the back round.
A route map (located on this site) from 1948 shows the "F" terminating at Hudson Terminal, while the "D" terminated at Church Avenue. Apparently, this flipped several times in the years 1940-1954.
As for the "D" terminating at Kings Highway, I do remember this from the late 50s and early 60s. This usually occured during the 10AM-3PM time range, and a shuttle ran single-track from Kings Highway to Stillwell Avenue. This was quite frequent, so there must have been some massive track work (or other infrastructure) project going on during that time.
Again, for a few years before 1954, "D" signaled MUs worked the IND South Brooklyn Line.
There may have been a few instances of route changes allowing "F" signaled MUs on the South Brooklyn IND, but that was the exception, not the norm. The same could be true of "GG" service, going to Church instead of Smith/9.
We went thru this at the Transit Museum when I worked there with some ol' timers. I trust those guys.
Sure sounds like it. Also sounds like the line was not extended right away because they had to figure out how to (literally) get around the existence of the PATH line below 34th.
Building the 6th Ave. line at 34th St. had to be one of the most difficult engineering feats ever. It snakes its way over the Pennsy/LIRR tunnels, beneath the BMT Broadway line, and around and under PATH. You can plainly see the dip the line takes at 34th St.
The tunnel between 34th and 42nd can be considered as "Homeball Alley II". Going northbound, you have the following sequence:
A scissor switch between the express tracks.
A scissor switch between the northbound express and local tracks and a crossover switch from express to local southbound.
A second scissor switch between the express tracks.
A crossover switch from express to local northbound and a scissor switch between the southbound local and express tracks.
The express tracks between 34th St. and W. 4th St. were ready for service when the Chrystie St. connection opened in 1967; however, the 57th St. station was not. Consequently, the express tracks were only used by B and D trains during rush hours prior to July 1, 1968. After that, D trains ran express 24/7 while B trains continued to do so only during rush hours. The B also became a 24/7 operation on that date; prior to that there was no B service during late nights and Sundays. A TT shuttle operated between 36th St. and Coney Island during those hours.
Yes. Four tracks from 34th to 50th.
Thanks. Now how about between W 4th and Broadway-Lafeyette? Was it a traditional two-track? Was it a four track (albeit a then-useless one)? Was it a two track with room in the middle for furture express tracks--maybe with enourmous island platforms (the middle of the platforms being where the express tracks are today)?
:-) Andrew
Nope, the layout From West Fouth south is as it was, with the exception that the middle tracks used to continue through to Houston-Second Ave. instead of branching off onto Chrystie Street, as they do now.
Thank you.
:-) Andrew
When constructed, the idea was for the Board of Transportation to overtake the H&M tracks from 33rd Street to 4th Street.
When it was found that the cost to retrofit the H&M tunnels (which were built to IRT sizes) to IND clearances would be too expensive, the IND built around the H&M, and had the H&M relocate it's terminal at 33rd Street.
The most difficult construction of it's time, the 6th Avenue IND complex at 34th Street is above a water aqueduct, above the Pennsylvania/Amtrak tracks, next to the H&M tracks, under the BMT Broadway line, and (at the time) under the Sixth Avenue El.
Oh yes, and there was auto traffic that was maintained thru construction.
Try doing that today...ha...takes 20 years just for the paperwork.
The relocation of the H&M to 33rd also required the H&M to close the 28th Street station.
You are right on with the stacking of the 34th street complex. In addition, there are a massive number of electric, water, sewer, steam, and telephone lines. What a mess it must have been.
I think that the missing mile of express tracks was also delayed because of both budget problems and the onset of World War II -- the Sixth Avenue Line was completed after the Eighth.
I had forgotton about the H&M 28th Street. You are right.
I am thinking at the time, with the Sixth Avenue el on the scene, that there wasn't a dire need for the express service, but then again, the Sixth Avenue el went soon after 1940.....
I'd guess it was WWII. WWII also stopped the IND connection to the Culver line. I have pictures of the columns, bents and stringers in place above Ditmas Avenue/McDonald Avenue (dated 1941), then came December 7th, and that ended everything for the time being.
WWII also stopped the IND extension into East New York. Euclid Avenue complex wasn't ready until November, 1948.
The 6th Ave. el ended service in 1938 and was demolished in 1939. The steelwork was sold as scrap to interests in Japan.
And probably used to build the planes used at Pearl Harbor . . .
I think I am one of the only guys around to still fly the Flag on December 7th. Shame.
nO YOU ARE NOT, GO TO HAWAII, ALL THE FLAGS ARE HALF MASSED
I meant in my area of New York, #1 Brighton.
I would HOPE they fly them half mast in Hawaii.
Yes it is sad. Even if I hate government there is no shame in one's flag. Sadly even much of Montana has "lost it." I can honestly say it was good to hear a parade marshall when I was in NoDak make an announcement that you are to remove your hats when the flag goes by.
As someone has raised a thought on scrap from the 6th Ave. el coming back at us as war material... I hate to think of the economic power our trade has given to China, the last real, live Communist nation; the rest are a joke. To say the least I'm very leery. [ok--they're becoming capitalist in a way but not to most people's lives]
And according to what is probably an "urban legend", the steel was returned to us on December 7, 1941 at Pearl Harbor.
The IND also considered IRT dimensions. I don't know if that was for the purpose of connecting with H&M, or it was an earlier idea, but that would have enabled the connection easy.
The Board of Transportation..and John Hylan...had always wanted thru service to Coney Island.
The 1954 service extension over the former BMT Culver El was part of every announced plan since the first days of the BoT. In was no mistake the the original IND subway terminated at Church Avenue, a scant 2 blocks from the BMT Culver El. It was intentional to construct a 4 track subway directly underneath the Fulton El as well. The plan was simple: Take Over, or Eliminate.
I truly think this was a key factor in going along with BRT/BMT dimensions.
"(which were built to IRT sizes)"
The Path is wider than the IRT! But shorter in height than the BMT and IRT which are the same height.
N Bwy
When trains "terminated" at 34th Street-Sixth Avenue, they did their switching NORTH of 34th Street station. The bumpers were just outside the south end of the platforms in those days, trains couldn't go very far past the platforms' ends.
I'd suggest to figure it all out, look at the track maps book that was authored and published by Peter Dougherty. It is worth every penny of its price. You can find details of his book right at the New York Subway Resources website (as well as maps of the tracks right there, too).
I have a photograph from December, 1940 showing a well-lit station scene at 34th/6th. I can only see three tracks, but I am assuming of course the other track was back of the camera.
Is it by any chance the same photo which adorns the back cover of Building the Independent Subway? 34th St. always had four tracks.
No, but I know the photo you refer to.
That is a great book!
"For some reason, when the built the 6th Ave. line, they left a gap between 34th and West 4th on the express. The express trains are below the local tracks and PATH -- the presence of PATH on 6th Ave (from 33rd to 9th) is why you don't have a 4 track wide run from 34th to West 4th."
I'm confused as hell! What gap? And what 4 track wide run from 34th Street to West 4th Street? Please help me understand what you are talking about? Thanks!
Chris--
The 6th Avenue subway was one of the most difficult and expensive stretches of subway to build in the entire IND system. That is one of the reasons it didn't open until 1940. Just north of the West 4th Street station, the two-track PATH (then called Hudson & Manhattan Railroad) subway turns and runs up the center of 6th Avenue and terminates at 33rd street. It is a shallow, cut-and-cover structure. When building the IND subway, it was decided to squeeze the local tracks on either side of the H & M tracks (it is also slightly lower) and route the express tracks UNDER the H & M in a deep-bore tunnel. As in the case with many subway projects, economics (first the depression, then WWII) the city was forced to abandon the construction of the express tracks between West 4th and 34th. Construction resumed in the early 1960s and it was completed circa 1968, along with the 57th Street Station and the Grand/Chrystie connection. (I may be off on my dates a bit.)
If this wasn't complicated enough, the city had to undertake even more complicated construction just to get the 6th Avenue subway open in the first place. In the vicinity of Herald Square, you have the Pennsylvania/Long Island Railroad tunnels, the H & M 33rd Street terminal station (which had to be completely demolished and rebuilt), the BMT subway, and some major water main and sewer lines. The new 6th Avenue Subway had to be threaded between this concrete and steel plate of spaghetti. Not only that, but the 6th Avenue El and various trolley lines had to be underpinned while all this construction was going on. It's no wonder it took so long to finish the 6th Avenue Subway.
Thanks!
N Bwy
One wonders why the planners built on 6th Ave. A 8th Ave/2nd Ave system would've made more sense. One trunk line on the West side, one on the east ...
Yes indeed; and the BMT Broadway could have been expanded by running up CPW. But then those would have been separate operating systems on the same line, one private (BMT) and the other public (IND.)
OTOH had there been a 2nd ave. subway early on I'd never have had the chance to ride the 3rd ave. el, what little I did [regrettably]
[Yes indeed; and the BMT Broadway could have been expanded by running up CPW. But then those would have been separate operating systems on the same line, one private (BMT) and the other public (IND.) ]
By the time they got around building 6th Ave Exp tracks, the systems were united.
Arti
What I'm wondering why they bothered to build 6th Ave exp tracks and Christy St connection, for that money they probably could have built the whole 2nd Ave subway. It doesn't look like there is a need for 8 tracks on Broadway/6th Ave anyway.
I wonder rwhat the system would look like if they would have done that?
Arti
Chrystie St. is actually part of 2nd Av. It has provisions for a straight track between the two tracks leaving Grand, which separate. But since they were having problems getting the 2nd Av line off the ground even then, they opted for a cheaper, quicker connection to the nearby Houston line (just like the 63rd St. connects to Queens Blvd only, instead of the Queens Bypass)
The Chrystie St. connection was originally planned for access to 2nd Ave. by BMT southern division lines. The 6th Ave. express tracks were originally designed to run through the never built Houston St. tunnel to S4th St., Brooklyn. Since neither line was built, this compromise we see today was constructed. Something had to be done to alleviate congestion through Dekalb Ave., and this plan was better than nothing.
Did you look at my "History of the IND" right here on this site?
An excerpt:
The 6th Avenue Trunk Line
Of the routes approved by the Board of Transportation in the 1920s, only the 6th Avenue trunk route was still unfinished as of 1937. There was good reason - this line would have to tunnel over or under an aqueduct, the BMT Broadway subway, the Long Island Railroad and Pennsylvania Railroad in the vicinity of 34th St, the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad (also known as the Hudson Tubes, and now called the PATH), the IRT Flushing Line, and the 6th Avenue El. In 1935, the city reached an agreement with the Hudson and Manhattan to relocate its midtown terminal to 33rd Street and close the 28th Street station. The original plan for the 6th Avenue line was to use the H&M tracks as the local tracks, and build two new express tracks between 8th St. and 33rd St. It didn't happen; the H&M was built to IRT specifications, and it would cost too much to retrofit the existing tunnels. Instead, the 6th Avenue line would have two tracks straddling the H&M from 8th Street to 33rd Street and express tracks would be built later. Construction began on March 15th, 1936.
During construction, streetcar service along 6th Avenue was terminated, with the city having the option to restore it upon termination of construction, or outright abandon it. The city wanted to tear down the 6th Ave. El right away and save on the costs of shoring it up while construction proceeded underneath it. Two years later, after much wrangling, the city bought the El from the IRT for $12.5 million and terminated operation of it on December 5th, 1938. Its remnants were sold to Japan. The 6th Avenue trunk line, consisting of two tracks, opened for business on December 15th, 1940. It would be 28 years later that full express service would begin under 6th Avenue.
--Mark
Thanks -- I hadn't. My Sixth Avenue knowledge came from my working with the Port Authority in the late 60s and early 70s, and we had a few problems with being sure about the various easements along the line. For example, when the TA began construction of the express section, they found out that in the 30s they had encroached on a building site. The owner sued and the City raised the statute of limitations defense; I'm not sure what the result was.
Also re PATH, if you look closely at the Christopher Street - Sheridan Square Station on the West Side IRT, you will see the beams between the tracks where it bridges over the PATH line below. I don't know how they handled this where the Eighth Avenue crosses PATH just north of the West 4th Street station.
You mean a two track line from 34th Street south to West 4th Street, correct?
And if you saw the movie "The Bone Collector" you saw an old abondoned BB car with a roll sign saying 168th Street. I never heard of the BB to tell the truth, but I never had much use for the Ind system, or as we called it, the 8th Avenue System. BTW, most of my friends did not like the movie. I loved it, and , honest to God, I picked out the killer within the first ten minutes of the movie. Maybe I should have been a cop.
No, my favorite movie was THE FRENCH CONNECTION. 95% of the train scenes was West End El (my native line) trackage.
Reminds me of what the R42s really looked like at the beginning of the service on the TA.
Yes Paisan but did you and anyone else notice the train running away was an N train? What the hell was the Sea Beach doing on the West End line? Maybe the movie makers thought all of us are a bunch of rubes when it comes to differentiating between different trains. To be honest, it was a great movie, but seeing that inaccuracy really pissed me off.
LOL
The MUs were assigned to the Sea Beach. Paramount Pictures figured that no one would notice if they were signaled N, B, RR, XX, GG or whatever...except us sharp eyed city folk knew the score.
One scene was NOT filmed on the West End, but in Ridgewood, under the Myrtle Avenue (M) El.
You got me there Italian guy. I'm afraid I didn't notice the M on the Myrtle Avenue line. Next time some joker makes a picture where the New York subway is prominently featured let's hope he puts the right train on the right track. They can't fool that many of us.
No, you didn't see the actual MU train, just the elevated structure. It's at the point of the movie where Gene Hackman crashes his car into what I believe was a pile of garbage.
That was the only scene of El trackage NOT filmed on the West End.
Hackman really trashed that LeMans, didn't he?
OK, here's the scoop on the mismarked train.
R-42s 4572-4573 were selected for the movie, which was filmed during the winter months of 1970-71. The producers insisted on clean cars, which resulted in slim pickings because car washers were OOS at the time. The cars chosen were normally assigned to the N line and did not have B signs; consequently, they operated during the movie with an N displyed in the front slot. Keep in mind that when new, the R-42s had humongous letters up front. They were so big that only three or four letters could be acommodated on a single roller curtain. The R-42s were divided up among all IND/BMT lines in an effort to get air-conditioned trains on each line.
Actually those R42s did have "B" signs. Several photos on this web site of R-42 MUs signaled for "B" service, with that huge "B" black background, white letter.
Back in our days of the 70's Don Harold told me things like this were done to frustrate attempts at setting up crimes. Much like for an example, not a fact, using Utica on the A and putting signs saying Bedford Park Blvd. on the posts..you will notice that station signs in a lot of movies are not the actual location.
For those who don't know Don Harold was head of Public Relations, etc at the TA and a guru to many rail-transit fans of the time.
Hey Big Ed, I hope this Don Harold guy is not one of the characters at the TA whose responsible for all the snafus that have plagued the system. Since you seem to be in the know, maybe you can tell those guys over there to get their crap together and solve that Manny B mess once and for all. That would be great for starters. Then the 2nd Avenue Subway, then......., well, one thing at a time.
The R32 and R38 really looked tacky until they got color-coded roll-signs around the last 70's. Just so the side route sign would say 6th Avenue LOCAL, they would display BB, rather than B. Eventually, they covered the BB up with a B patch that was black on a white background.
Also, one month after Chrystie opened, the R16 was essentially banished from the Eastern Division (until around 1976) except for several of the RJ's, and a fluke on the QJ, or in a mixed consist with an R27. A white paper RR sign was pasted on the ends and on the side route sign, even when on the RJ, as was a paper ASTORIA sign over the side north sign. They didn't want them to display numerics from that point on, but the ASTORIA I could never understand.
On an obscure Scooby Doo cartoon, Shaggy and Scooby are kidnapped in NYC, his nephew Scrappy and his friends go to rescue them, and enter a subway entrance marked "6th Avenue-Concourse-Brighton Express", and "(B), (D), F, KK" was on the wall. When they sneak aboard the train (looks something like WF R-36 colors) and it pulls out of the station, you can make out "BB" on the bulkhead (but not the destination) (this was made in 1979 well after BB and KK).
You can read about it here on my other page
It started at the Bay 49th St Station, acros from PS 212 where my Mom taught for over 27 years
That's music to my ears---a family of educators. If you weren't so hungry for the big bucks maybe you would have stayed a teacher. BTW, any chance you can be in NY between March 30-April 1? We could do some real railfanning.
I should have brought you down to the DC Area, then we could explore the Smithsonian
The BB was the Washington Heights-6th Ave local, a rush hour service in existence from 1940 to 1967.
also ask a German or Northern and Eastern Euoropean to pronounce W, it will be a V.Maybe now, pleople will learn to speak English.
One day Count Dracula enters the 14/Union Square station and asks
"Vhere vill I vait for the V Vest End to Vest 57th Street?"
The token booth attendant replies:
"Look pal there's no V train here, the Lo-V's stopped running 40 years ago. Is that what you mean?"
The Count
"No, the "V" train, the vone that they bought voll signs to Vhitehall Street and vouldn't change to T"
Token Booth
"Vell vhy didn't you say so count!" Now I know what you mean!
2 people fly into Honolulu, the are argueing all the way on how the correct way to pronounce Hawaii is a w or a V. So they ask the 1st person they see, the cab driver. The ask is it HaWaii or HaVaii. The drivers says HaVaii, They say thank you, he says you r Velcome. By the way the correct pronouncing is The W sounds like a V
Not unless your 60 like me. 51 is a young age. It's all in the mind and from one's perspective. Some of my neighbors in their 70's and 80's think I'm young. You are what you feel.
Yes, bulkhead route signs on the R-27/30s and R-32s had "TT/West End". As for the T, the former had "T/Bway-West End" while the latter, "T/Broadway" I rode on a TT once, in July of 1965, and while I can't remember the cars, they definitely were not Triplexes (bummer). Most likely they were R-32s. I never rode on a T, but did see one once or twice on Saturdays in October of 1967.
The weekday day version of the Nassau Street TT, with deadheads to/from ENY was about 90% R32, 10% R27/30. They were cut to 6 cars midday. Now the TT/10 of the 60's is simply the M.
Yes. The current north tracks were connected to the Broadway express tracks and the south tracks, now used by the Broadway line, were used to connect to the Nassau St. line at Chambers St.
I think that the "TT" would have been a local. Anytime a train was besignated by a double letter such as "AA" or "BB" it was a local.
BMTJeff
The TT was also known as the West End Short Line. During rush hours in its later years, it ran as far as 9th Ave. or Bay Parkway, then during midday it ran all the way to Coney Island, replacing the T which by then was essentially a rush hour and Saturday service.
Yes,
Exactly!
In all fairness to history of the BMT lines, all the other lines still pretty much have their original letter designation in one form or another. The "N" Sea Beach, the "Q" Brighton Line, the "R" 4th Ave Line, etc. There is no question that the T and TT were the West End's letter designation, yet we get stuck with a "W" train for lame reasons and it isn't even a good letter to use.
I'm trying to avoid beating a dead horse, but even the alphabet sequence makes sense. N,Q,R,T (S being out for the shuttles)for trains running up Broadway, not, N;Q;R;W, that is sooo bizarre.
All subway buff stuff aside, you'll have to agree that the decision to go with "W" is strictly one of cheapness, laziness and poor planning, etc. In finality, that is why the choice will never sit well with me anyways. It really should have been the "T" train, plain and simple.
Double You Dubya, you've really teed me off!
I remember seeing an old map at the time the 2nd Ave. subway was started being built, indicating that the line would be designated T. So, obviously, the TA is saving T for the 2nd Ave. line, which, as we know, will be opened any day now.
What would it be possible to extend all the rollsigns with T rather than replace them ? The R27/30 and a few R16 got the treatment in 1968 to display QJ, RJ, and maybe a few others.
Yes, it is possible to extend the rollsigns, but that would cost MONEY, and why would the TA do something logical with cash? W is an unused letter, and the TA will just stick with that. Why T was cut out in the FIRST PLACE is really stupid, but hey, we didn't make the signs.
Actually, they would only have to replace the W with a T on 100 end rollsigns of the R68A. The intermediate cars ends that have been drawbarred are irrelevant, and aren't the side signs electronic ?
R68A side signs are not electronic. The only B division electronic signs are the R32s, R38s (head-end only), R44s and R46s (side-end only).
What about OPTO service? I think you are assuming that the cars stay in 8 car MU sets.
No. I assume they are drawbarred into 4 car sets.
How much would it take to just put in new roll signs, or electric signs to replace what they have?
Using the designation "B" confused fewer people, whereas using the letter "T" for the post Chrystie St, B would confuse even more. "BT" was proposed, but I think this was the time when the TA finally began realizing that the double-letter route assignment was fast becoming obsolete.
W or T? big deal?
I think that the "TT" would have been a local. Anytime a train was designated by a double letter such as "AA" or "BB" it was a local.
BMTJeff
I think that the "TT" would have been a local. Anytime a train was designated by a double letter such as "AA" or "BB" it was a local.
Not the NX.
That's not a double letter, that's two letters.
Still, two letters or double letter was supposed to show express trains.
The NX was the only deliberate exception.
A double letter was used to designate a local train such as "AA" or "BB" etc. If the letters were repeated the train was ALWAYS a local. If there were two letters and they wern't repeated these trains were generally expresses such as the "NX" and the "QB". There were some exceptions though.
BMTJeff
The purpose of the X in NX was to distinguish it from its Sea Beach counterpart, the N. I still regret never having ridden on an NX, although I remember seeing it depicted on the first multicolored map the TA put out.
When I came on the road, I was told by old timers (missed the NX by a couple of years when I ran out of Brighton Beach) that the NX screwed the railroad 15 ways to Tuesday with its bizarre routing and its schedule ... while it was a noble attempt at service, there was no way for it to merge in with the rest of the railroad without leaving dead bodies in its wake as far as the other lines maintaining schedule. It wasn't the poor ridership that killed the NX, it was the crews. It screwed up everything so I heard ... true or BS?
Inquiring mines knead to no ... after all, it's sweeps week. :)
Oh,
Please refer to us as "seasoned" or "experienced", I think of an old timer as a miner with no teeth, a damaged liver from years of drinking, and some stage of alzheimer's disease.
I checked with a true old timer and here's the lore....
Yes Sonny, that NX ran like the wind up the Sea Beach line blowing all whippersnappers away in its path. Guess those diaper clad crew members couldn't keep up with the blazin speed or attract enough riders to tame that ole NX express.
The NX express as she was known, came out of the west one sixties rush hour for a year or so, and lore has it a phantom NX train can still be seen now and then running express up the track, and that express bronco will ride again in anger when it sees a "W" train making its way, staking claim to its tracks at Pacific Street!
Oh my darlin, oh my darlin, oh my darlin Clementine.... (join in chorus)
Heh ... miner with no teeth, a damaged liver from years
of drinking, and some stage of alzheimer's disease. OK, well two out of three ain't bad. I resemble that remark. :)
Went the "wrong way" out of Brighton Beach (thus the dissent at the D train terminal), ran through Stillwell (which cheesed off the Stillwell boys since no train goes THROUGH Stillwell (there's a new sheriff in town and his name be Reggie Hammond) without giving a high five and the NX failed to do so. Each one that went out managed to screw up 16 trains (not taken lightly at a time when a tardy train was a death sentence unless you invoked the godhead and declared it an ABD, harbinger of all things good as far as timetable slippage went) or so the story goes ...
What can I tell ya? I was a Bronx boy assigned to Brighton Beach or Coney depending on the position of the stars and all I heard was the whining of the locals over all the sand-in-britches the NX caused when it tried to maintain a schedule that just couldn't happen. :)
What you say is true. Running a train thru Stillwell clogged the whole system. The other problem was that none of the trains had proper roll signs or front-end signs reading "NX". So no one could tell the difference between that and the N -- other than by the final destination, which people ignored. The TA tried station announcements saying, "Next train is an NX," etc. To cover for lack of signs, thay hung big plastic disks with NX printed on them on the front car. Nothing worked -- mass confusion on the Broadway line in the afternoons. Finally, they installed proper NX signs -- and about a week later, the train was discontinued.
If the TA had studied (duh) design, they would have learned that using the second letter to designate an entirely different line would never work - no matter what signs they used.
Under the single letter express / double letter local system, the worst you could do was to get on the wrong train on the right line. The letters should have some logical relationship. Thus, as someone pointed out, N, Q, R, and T on Broadway has some basis -- W instead of T does not. The same type of irrationality occurs with the 1 / 9 on the IRT West Side, and the J / Z on the Jamaica line.
I imagine that a total redesignation of all lines is out of the question, even if it would make sense.
When it comes to train designations, the TA needs to remember the KISS Principal. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. Someone in HQS has tunnel vision look through his or her Navel. So you know where there head is!
It's a principle, a principal runs a school.
And I don't understand how better to designate a second line then using a different letter or number.
>>>It's a principle, a principal runs a school.
Pork: Being a product of Catholic schools, this brings back an old line from one of our more loquacious and humorous nuns:
The way to remember priniciple and prinicipal is that, the prinicipal, Sister_______, is your "pal". Remember, the school principal is your pal.
I knew you would like this one.
-cordially,
turnstiles
NewHavenJon,
Thanks for supporting my logic on the alphabet. N,Q,R,T makes alot of sense to me and is probably why the letters were assigned in the first place back in the 60's. All to designate the letter series using the Broadway line.
Let's face it, it's always best to do it right the first time rather than some half way approach just to make due. I really think they should do the entire system with logic to accomodate growth and future line changes down the road. It would pay for itself in the long run. Don't get lazy and accept "W" just cause it's there. It's a poor choice for the West End line and the system as a whole.
Later!
Looking back from 40 years hindsight, it's obvious the TA should have designated the BMT/IND trains by numbers and the IRT trains by letters, since the B division has had so many different variations on its lines over the years, while the A Division has only gone though minor adjustments since the late 1950s.
If they had made the IRT Seventh Ave. the A, B and C lines back then, the East side the D, E and F lines and the Flushing line the G, they still would have the same designations 40 years later. The BMT Southern Division could have kept its numbers and the Eastern Division its numbers, while the IND could have used the numbers in-between (with the G becomming, say, the No. 17 train and the Rockaway shuttle the 18).
But the ghost of Mayor Hylan reared its ugly head here and the people down at Jay street at the time couldn't think of changing their precious IND lettering system in favor of the BMT's numbered system. So we ended up with the cornacopia of single letters, double letters, mixed pair letters and now split line single letters that have perplexed riders ever since the Chrystie Street connection opened.
It wasn't just Stillwell that the NX "clogged". You had QB and QJ trains terminating at Brighton Beach leaving in one direction, and NX trains terminating at Brighton Beach leaving in the other direction. And to squeeze more lemon juice on the wound, the constant switching at Brighton beach tied up D trains waiting to go to Coney Island.
--Mark
People who rode on the NX reported that it did indeed crawl between Stillwell Ave. and Brighton Beach, plus the train was only half full.
Why couldn't they thru-route a reverse-peak QB/QJ as an NX and run thru Brighton Beach as the D did without any switching ?
Don't forget, the "GG" and the "HH" were never intended for Express service, thus you never saw a "G" or "H" in the salad bowl days of the IND (1932-1940).
Sorry Charlie, but we also called the Sea Beach the #4 train, and the Brighton the #1. Those terms weren't used as often as the name of the line but they were used.
Only because those lines ran Triplexes, they were used little elsewhere.
There is a reason that trains get the letters that they do. Some train lines got their letters because of what street they ran on, or where they terminated. The "J" and "M" trains exhibit this naming pattern. Thus, the "W" was created for Whitehall st. Why change roll signs unnessarily.
One problem with the Whitehall arguement, the proposed route is a Manhattan Bridge run (at least that's what I think), and wouldn't even stop at Whitehall, it would go directly to Canal Street after the Manhattan Bridge from Brooklyn.
Besides, the issue isn't so much what does the "W" stand for, its the shortsightedness of creating limited roll signs and it really is better to stick with easy to pronounce letters. It's exactly the reason why so many Astoria riders called the RR the "double R" for years before they made it the R train cause it was just easier to say.
Harsh sounding constanants do not make good identifying logos.
For example:
This "W" train, it ain't gonna be pretty! Now "T", there's a nice letter, like tea for two and tee off at 3 but.... now arriving on track 4 the double you train, or 14th St/Herald Square, change here for the 456 and that double you west end train.
They even had a TV character named Mr. T, never saw Mr. Double You on the A Team.
Sounds more like a villian! Mr. Double You teams up with Mr. Freeze to cause mayhem in Gotham City!
Holy Alphabet Batman!
PS: I do hope you all have a sense of humor out there in SubTalk land.
I was not saying that the W line would stop at whitehall, but when the letter on roll-signs was created, it was created for a local N service to whitehall. Roll signs are short-sighted because of their nature on the R-32/38 roll signs: N Broadway express, E 8th av. local. Thus a roll sign is only up dated when a new line is added.
Double letters were always a bad idea
W is a pretty bad letter. There are 25 other letters that are one syllable, but W somehow got on a roll sign. W is the most awkward letter.
How about Y? I once saw it on the luminator sign of an R-32.
I just got an idea. How about naming the awkward sounding "W" train the JFK express for 2 months. Not only will it be a long awkward sounding name, but it will confuse EVERYONE. After the 2 months, everybody will be glad to have the double you train running, even if it's a picture of 2 people instead of a letter
Now Come On,
The Plane to the Double You Train?
How about frequent flyer miles on Value Jet with every mile you endure the double you "W" train.
I kind of like the "X" train, but that wouldn't be allowed to stop at Times Square now that Guliani has cleaned up the area.
As for the "Y" train, well the Mouseketeers could sing, Y because we don't like the double you train!
Later!
NO, NO, NO! The letter X is being reserved for the New service between coney Island and East Hell! The service will use the sea beach express tracks (reportedly because the devil "can't stand that slow sea beach local" and "won't have his trains full of sinners running with a 'double you' train"), the 4th ave. express tracks, the manhattan bridge and the nassau st. loop, which has a never before used connection to East Hell.
The r-143's are being built with a cooling system in their walls in order to endure the flames.
Double you?
You must mean DUBYA!
Now that has a nice sound to it - the dubya train!
Don't you mean, the DUMBYA train?
Peace,
ANDEE
As long as it's the Florida Express and derails in North Carolina. :)
W is a pretty bad letter.
I resemble that remark!
Wayne
Now, the "Wayne Train" has a nice ring to it!
If your West End is transferred to the south side of the Manny B and my Sea Beach is relegated to that crappy lower Manhattan route it has been stuck with since the mid-80's, it's war across the board. My Sea Beach had better get one of those Manny B routes, or the TA is going to have one pissed off nut harassing the hell out of them.
The West End serves more people, and more areas too far away from other trains (like Bath Beach). The N is not so far from other trains, and has a lower ridership.
Tracks 1 and 2, IIRC.
wayne
There's nothing wrong with 'W' as a line name. The advantage of electronic signs is you can make them say whatever you need. Nothing needs to be printed. I figure the next time we see new roll signs, it'll be when the Second Ave line opens, if cars using roll signs still exist. If all the signs were electronic, then you could certainly have your nostalgic 'T' train.
-Hank
The T ran to Astoria during weekdays. On Saturdays, its northern terminus was 57th St. It didn't run on Sundays.
No it's not. I know the signs were alphabetical, but it ends at "V". "W" was a later idea to redesignate the , and that was added when the andwere added.(R-68A and GOH cars signs)
Also toss in a yellow diamond 'N', a yellow diamond 'R'(don't know what that was for), the 'C' as a blue diamond, and the 'JFK' bird placed between 'H' and 'J'. I just remembered that I had an original R-68 side sign in my garage, went to dig it out after my last post.
The yellow diamond "R" was for a train that ran along the regular "R" line in Brooklyn and then ran along Nassau Street, terminating in Manhattan, back in the 80's.
- Lyle Goldman
Ah, thank you my good man for refreshing my memory! I now recall the yellow diamond R being used for Nassau service for a brief time before the brown diamond R came into being. Now isn't this a whole lot better than ragging about politics?
Speaking of the Brown diamond R, I spotted an R46 out of service queens bound this morning with a brown diamond R on front... odd.
I have a better question. Why did they use the "B" designation for two different lines back when the Manhattan Bridge was first being worked on in the 80's? Why didn't they use the "T" designation then? They were using new rollsigns anyway, weren't they? So why couldn't they just put "T" signs on them instead of yellow "B"'s?
- Lyle Goldman
The whole idea was that those diversions were only temporary, so they tried to make it look like that. That last diversion for 2½ years wan't supposed to be that long. I still wish they had brought back the T, but ever since the May 19 1982 emergency reroute (when alot of the original R-32 side signs were stll around) the practice was to "suspend" QB service and run the D in it's place, and move the B over, and there were I guess not enough signs with "T" or "QB" (remember, the one-piece signs on the 40's & 42's only had a few lines on them, so the ones assigned to the D did not have QB), so the split B and D is what they became accustomed to.
Isn't it amazing how many years you can pay for substandard planning?
To create such limited route signs on various rolling stock was so typical of the problems which plaqued the transit system and the city as a whole in the late 60's and 70's.
The R-40/42 large letter frontage was actually a great idea if they only had remembered there are 26 letters in the alphabet. They boxed themselves into a corner by creating those side rolls with station maps and express/local runs.
In theory a nice idea, but what happens when you need to make significant changes to a line due to new stations/reroutes or route letter changes?
Train lines are kind of like clothing, just when you think it's gone out of style, bam, times change and uh, oh, we sure could use a "T" designation sign. Knew I should have saved that tie!! LOL
How difficult or expensive can it be to have a roll or computer program with all letters/numbers of the alphabet and then a seperate roll/program to assign the route that letter will assigned to?
Guess we need to hire more of those Rocket Scientists to figure out this great dilemma of mankind.
here's a head start! ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ, now I know my ABC's, won't you create a complete roll sign for me?
Later!
I just heard on KYW1060 that a "giant sinkhole" opened up around Broad and Race. Race is closed to traffic between Broad and the Parkway. I wonder if this will affect the BS line.
I wonder if this will affect the BS line.
If SEPTA is like the New York State MTA, then I don't see the BS line being affected in any way, in either city.
In any case, I now doubt it. While KYW still says "giant sinkhole", the trafficwatch website said merely "Pothole on Race Street at Broad Street. Heavy congestion. Race Street is closed between 18th Street and Broad Street. The left lane is closed in each direction on Broad Street. Avoid area."
The subway was probably the only thing not affected by the problem, which was apparently a leaking water main. Some water got into the subway but not enough to close it down. On the surface, however...
I saw the start of the problem yesterday morning, so I guess it was first noticed in the wee hours of Friday.
Going back to an earlier post in which Jeff H asked if I saw some guys in white suits working around the R-142s, I didn't on that day, but I saw personnel in white suits today. What were they doing? Inspecting the trucks of the cars. The trucks have been removed from several cars and now sit together on a shop track. I certainly hope isn't anything wrong with those wheelsets.
-Stef
Well, I'm gone after 13 years. I start work at the NYCT, in capital budget, on Monday. Your worst nightmare -- infamous cheapskate economist at the NYCT. But after Pataki finishes burying the MTA in debt, the NYCT will need economists to figure out how to stay alive in the new 1970s.
My goal at the TA...to understand why all these improvments cost so goddamn much. I will start out in the signal group, and any advice will be helpful. I've already read through all the signal stuff on this site. It will at least give me a head start asking questions, once my personnel processing is done.
Once under the obligations of an employee, I guess I won't be able to blast the MTA anymore, at least not on anything I get involved with. But I am now free to criticize the City's land use policy. And let me tell you, IT SUCKS!
My one transit-related accomplishment at NYC Planning was to convince the Department of City Planning to launch a re-study of the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges. The study sputtered out, like all the zoning projects I worked on, but I understand ANOTHER study is in the works.
I sent one last letter to the editor to the Daily News on the subject today, before moving on to the new job. In it, I blast Brooklyn's car-driving, free parking politicos for suddenly wanting to have hearings on the Manhattan Bridge -- after 18 years. And I point out that while Broadway-only service is bad, it's no worse than the 6th Avenue or Broadway-only service we've had for 18 years. Well, I guess the MTA is safe from Larry Littlefield from now on -- but YOU GUYS SHOULD KEEP ON YELLING!
Good luck Larry in your new job! Perhaps on a future SubTalk Field Trip you can teach us all about the economics of signalling :-)
It is a total mystery to me that Brooklyn elected officials are not up in arms about the long-term Manhattan Bridge situation. The endless repairing of the span seems only to lead to more problems. No one wants to face the fact that maybe someday the bridge will no longer be a viable structure. Then what??
Larry - good luck at Transit! Put in a good word for the SIR once in a while.
I am not from New York I would like to know why it has taken so long to fix the manny B
I am from New York and would like to know why in my entire lifetime there have only been two months where IN-SERVICE trains ran on both sides (Oct-Nov 1990).
My guess is that it's taking so long because the bridge has to be kept open. If they closed the whole thing (cars too) for one or two years they could have fixed everything in one shot (or at least enough to give us a few years of no construction).
Politicians take the path of least resistance. (Not like the rest of us.) The bridge is now recognized as a poor design. It would be torn down tomorrow if it could be replaced the next day. Since it can't be replaced the next day, it can't be replaced until it falls in the river, at a time that every NYC pol prays will come at least three hours after they retire.
Good luck Larry, and talk to me off the board.
My goal at the TA...to understand why all these improvments cost so goddamn much.
Let me guess ...
Corrupt contractors
Dishonest materialmen
Greedy unions
Meddling politicians
Narrow-minded NIMBYs
Enviro-whackos
Larry --
Congratulations and good luck in the new job.
Chuck
Let me guess ...
Corrupt contractors
Dishonest materialmen
Greedy unions
Meddling politicians
Narrow-minded NIMBYs
Enviro-whackos
Might I also suggest low volume and poor engineering.
Best wishes in the Augean Stables. On a serious note, I hope you will find a way to retain your first amendment speech rights even if taking a nom-de-guerre and using a boilerplate disclaimer.
My goal at the TA...to understand why all these improvments cost so goddamn much. I will start out in the signal group,...
Might I suggest that you first discover whether or not the new systems provide a quantifiable improvement over current systems. An important component for such a measure should be tph for signal systems and its relvance for contemporary operations.
Clearly NYCT should be willing to spend more money for a system that provided 55 tph than for one that provided 20 tph. OTOH, if car shortages limit current capability to 25 tph then ...
I have been trying to discover any operational performance criteria in the NYCT specs published on the web. I have not found them. The only such specs that I've found for CBTC - for BART - have performance levels far below existing NYCT operations and requirements. I suspect that the "Canary Sea" Line was chosen to obscure this deficiency.
(I have been trying to discover any operational performance criteria in the NYCT specs published on the web. I have not found them. The only such specs that I've found for CBTC - for BART - have performance levels far below existing NYCT operations and requirements. I suspect that the "Canary Sea" Line was chosen to obscure this deficiency.)
One thing is for sure: if CBTC increases throughput, the first place to put it is on the Lex, but for it to be usable on the Lex they've got to get the #6 around at Brooklyn Bridge faster. Perhaps once Rudy is gone, they won't feel the need to be a crazed about clearing the train. Franklin is also a bottleneck, although I guess they could turn at Bowling Green.
One thing is for sure: if CBTC increases throughput, the first place to put it is on the Lex,...
That is a big IF. If true then clearly getting the maximum benefit would dictate starting from the trunk lines and moving outward. However, the NYCT implementation plan, as documented by files on their BBS, suggests just the reverse implementation over a 50 year period.
My oft stated opinion is that CBTC throughput benefits over a conventional wayside block system are marginal. Moreover, what benefits exist are at a rate that is 33% - 50% greater than NYCT currently runs. So, the existing system could tolerate a 25% througput increase without need for the new technology. Unless there is a substantial cost savings on CBTC implementation and operation, I'd guess it would be very difficult to justify the investment. Of course, the existing signal system provides a convenient straw man for deflecting criticism.
Please let us know how NYCT manages to keep common sense and logic out of their decision making process. Do they have a security checkpoint at the entrances, where such attributes must be stored before entry? From what I've gathered, NYCT management style resembles that of the armed services. I'd always assumed that they never recovered from General Bingham's stewardship.
Unfortunately I guess for good or bad "this is the way things are being done" prevails, whether necessary or not.
Was amused hearing on the news that trains in Norway refused to run because of a computer problem [do trains REALLY need those things?]
Then there was the awesome crew-calling system in a computer that Montana Rail Link had. Punch a name in, it rings the phone number.etc. What was the matter with the $5. rolodex? I'd guess their computer cost about $20,000 or more..no faster? At least the Rolodex couldn't get "dumped " easily and lose info. Why waste all that money?
I guess the end plan behind all the new technology is to get rid of people.
Agreed, the wayside auto. block signal does do a satisfactory job. But guess high-tech is what is being done. BTW that MRL computer got me paid for a trip I missed ..someone dumped the computer and lost my number, and my alternate number was not in the Rolodex [their mistake] so thanks to union rules I got paid for a round trip. This time THEY missed the call.
Possibly the reason why capital improvements cost so much is because of the competitive bidding process. Sure, you get the job done cheaper but you get what you pay for. After it's done, the guys out there in the field find out that the job was done wrong, and have to correct the mistakes. Now, another capital appropriation is needed....With all due respect, you are now a TA suit. Try not to be an empty suit! And remember, when you go to the mens room, make sure you're carrying a clipboard. It shows other TA bureaucrats that you have lots of work to do, and you are preventing unauthorized people from snooping when you're away from your desk!
Clipboard? I thought there was only was person we both know authorized to use this for TA business.
Real good! LOL
My dad had given me some questions concerning railroad stuff. I thought I could post it up here in hopes that I'd get a few responses. Here goes:
1. What railroads were operating in New York state from 1950 through 1975?
2. What kind of equipment (locomotives, cars, etc.) were they using back then?
Thanks in advance!
Here's a few to get you started:
NYC - New York Central
B&A - Bangor & Aroostock (Boston line)
D&H - Delaware & Hudson
D&L - Delaware & Lackawanna
NH - New York, New Haven & Hartford
CV - Central Vermont
E - Erie Lackawanna
NYSW - NY Susquehanna & Western
B&O - Staten Island division, Baltimore & Ohio
Don't forget the Pennsy (PRR) and the LIRR. "B&A" in New York more commonly referred to the Boston & Albany, later absorbed by the NYC.
Also, there was the Lehigh Valley (LV); the New York, Ontario & Western (NYO&W); the Lehigh & New England (L&NE); and the Lehigh & Hudson River (L&HR).
AND you can't forget those waterfront shortlines like:
BEDT - Brooklyn Eastern District Railroad
Bush Terminal Railroad
Jay Street Connecting Railroad
New York Dock Railway
SBK - South Brooklyn Railway (formerly, South Brooklyn Marine Terminal Railroad)
BMTman
A couple of weeks ago, I was on an E train leaving northbound from 21st Street. This was during that signal problem previously discussed on this board. I noticed that the TO still had to get permission to key by even though the trip arms appeared to be hooked. As the train crawling along, I saw a sign that said "20 CAR" in the tunnel. Since when did NYCT start running 20-car trains? Also. Is it just me, or did anyone notice what appears to be a trackway before the first curve starts. Also, does it look like the signal numbers were partially written in? I mean, you would see "T2/124" and then a "3" that is in a different font? Very strange...
Don't know about the hand-written plate numbers.
You need permission to pass the red signal even if it is hooked.
Command/control might tell you in advance that it is OK to pass
the hooked signal, or there might be supervision or signal
maintainers on the ground giving you the OK, but if not, you
have to ask to go by it.
That 20CAR marker might be left over from the days when the
line stopped at Queensbridge and trains relayed there. That's
where you lay up the train if you are going deep to allow another
train to clear the crossover behind you.
The unfinished trackway ends in a bellmouth that can be used
for future expansion through Sunnyside yard. This has been
discussed here previously.
The 20 car marker signifies the point where the 2nd layup would stop. That way there would be enough room for another layup to come on top of it and clear the homeball behind it.
One other spot that has signs such as that is on the southbound express track between 168 and 145 on the A. That track is used to store four C layups at night. The first layup stops at the 32 car marker, the second at the 24, the third at the 16 and the last one at the 8. If any train stops short of the proper marker, the last layup will not be able to clear the homeball and the railroad will be locked out.
Do similar signs appear on the E/F express tracks in Queens? In 1984 I remember seeing trains laid up on those tracks east of 71-Continental, early on a Sat. morning.
LU (layup) signs are installed instead of reverse car markers. The only spot on the Qns Blvd line that I can remember right now with reverse car markers are on the layup tracks in the back at Parsons-E. Both tracks have 10, 20 and 30 car marker signs.
I think there are a few along D4 Parsons. Some are so dirty you can hardly see them!
It was around 2pm, I was at 47-50 Rock on the 6th ave line, and was going to get an F to Lex/53rd. I must've waited for nearly 20 minutes, and no F came. By the time I gave up and decided to take the D to 7th for E, the crowds waiting for the F train were very thick.
I was at 334th Street around noon, about 5 expresses went by until G came.
Arti
Where is 334th St.?
Peace,
ANDEE
Keyboard repeat delay too short, I meant 34th of course.
Arti
It's called Dobbs Ferry. :)
I assume you mean 34th street. But the G don't run there!
[I assume you mean 34th street. But the G don't run there! ]
I meant 34th, and it sure was a packed G train.
Arti
Man between the delays and the G train being short, that train must have been really, really packed! Today I waited awhile for an F train back to Queens also, two B's and D's came before I saw the F. I peeked into the control room at 47-50 to get a "head's up" when it came.
I would have taken the 7 if not for two reasons. Wanting to see the 63rd street connector again, and going to Wendy's in Elmhurst (since there's no Wendy's in Flushing anymore).
BTW, the parade in Chinatown today was beautiful. :-)
Oh, it felt like rush hour Lex train!
Arti
That can be arranged.:-) Flexibility is the IND's middle name.
The F has been performing extra lousy lately. I don't know why because in my duties on the E, we cannot pick up on the radio what goes on south of W.4th. I did see at one point during the day a rerouted G over the F line on the north express at Queens Plaza. Of course, that train was commited to remain express to Roosevelt. Around 90 minutes before you made this post, a northbound F went out of service at Lex. I was stuck behind that train in between Fifth & Lex for a good 15 minutes. The problem was in the last car. By the time the conductor fought the crowds to get back there, try to solve the problem (unsuccessfully), go back to his position to open all doors to discharge passengers, then make sure everybody was off, well, there you have the 15 minutes. Needless to say, when I pulled my train in there, did we get killed! I wasn't too happy: delayed on my last trip on my weekend get away day! I made a little blood money overtime!
There was also a stalled Q at W. 4th southbound at 10am yesterday. When I arrived at 59th/8th to head to Penn Station, the B&D trains were on the local track, so that they could be sent down 8th avenue to switch over to their normal route at W. 4th. To even things out, the A&C were both running express from 125th to W. 4th.
The platform and on-train announcements were crystal clear (even legible!), but people on the trains and on the platforms were puzzled beyond belief!
How the heck can a train stall??? The motors just stall like a vehicle engine? Don't tell me Cummins makes electric motors!! :-0
I guess it happens if you release the clutch too fast while not giving it enough gas :-)
Or similarly on our trolleys at Seashore, wrap up the controller too fast and/or forget to release the brake. POP! goes the breaker.
Cummins engines are prone to stall out when accelerated for a short period of time. In fact, that's when the L10G stalls out the most. Detroit Diesel engines don't seem to have that problem. You gotta be one idiot of a bus company to buy Cummins engines. Thank God that they don't make electric traction motors!
The phrase "Stalled Train" is used rather loosely. A stalled train is any train not moving for any reason and it is causing other trains to back up behind it, be it door problems, 12-9. BIE or anything else.
That right, I forgot! It's a long work day! On my first E trip, I arrived about 15 minutes late into WTC. The train I bring in makes an 11:00, but headways were adjusted and it made an 11:06 because the dispatcher was told I was late. I did ok till 23rd St., then I caught up to a rerouted B, and ahead of him was a schoolcar. When the B gets to W4th, it's a given that he has to go via the F to Stillwell, the question was if he would be hooked up at W4th or at Jay St. So the motorman inquires the tower. The answer: "Proceed on signals." I opened up my big mouth and said: "You're supposed to tell him NOW which way you're sending him becasue they have passengers who would like to be informed." He got his answer that he would be crossed at Jay, which meant he never got out of my way till Canal, and he had to deal with those wheel detectors as well as the school car in front of him along with merging with the A & C already on the express track at Canal! But that answer to that B train at W4th irked me. It reinforces my belief that most TA workers who take promotions do it just to get away from the public and make the jobs of the front line people difficult.
>>>It reinforces my belief that most TA workers who take promotions do it just to get away from the public and make the jobs of the front line people difficult.<<<
That, and they're morons.
(>>>It reinforces my belief that most TA workers who take promotions do it just to get away from the public and make the jobs of the front line people difficult.<<<)
Hey, my wife took it on the chin Friday and didn't complain to the TA about it. She complained to me (and I'm not with the TA until Monday).
Both the F and A train were way late at 2:00 pm. When she got to school, our six year old was crying because our eight year old had gone off to Brownies, Mom was 20 minutes late, and she didn't know why. The train was hot, and packed, and my wife was lugging a lot of stuff. She was so tense and dizzy by the end of it she dropped all her plans, spent the afternoon resting and went to bed at 8:00.
The six year old has now had it drubbed into her head not to panic if we are late -- it means there is something wrong with the train.
The F train has been very unreliable. I think I will stick with the 7 express during the week, since I rarely have problems with the 7 line.
On weekends though it is somewhat quicker to get the F at 74th, especially it's more interesting with the 63rd street reroutes.
Of course if they just ran the 7 express during the weekends, than I probably would rarely take the F train at all.
Pretty funny when old Redbirds seem to be more reliable than newer cars. They just don't make 'em like they used to!
Even on Saturday mid-morning heading out to Queens there were "F" problems. After Roosevelt, they routed us to the local track where we were held at just about every station. Finally we get out of 75th Avenue and a ten-minute wait to get into Union - they said there was a work train ahead of us.
wayne
All Queens-bound trains were running local after Roosevelt. There was a red block set up on the express track.
the F ends to have problems like this. but at least it isnt worse than waiting for a frickin' 9 train at columbus circle during rush hour. taking the 1 would be an option, but the crowd is packed. let us not hurt the F train's feelings
I curious to know why didn't many people took pictures of the R27/30 in redbird red before retiring from passenger service?
Maybe it's because they used the cheapest red paint they could find and the cars always looked like absolute crap about two days after they left Coney Island.
I don't think I EVER saw one that looked decent.
Yeah, it was a lousy paint job.
Anybody remember the first R10 teal and white paint job..didn't take long before it was peeling off and the whole fleet was repainted again in the same colors but missing the stripe IIRC. My friend from 207 st. Shop said they hadn't been primed right. This was.. l966-67 or so? Got to admit the R10's looked their best then.
I remember the racing stripe scheme all too well. It was my absolute favorite. Too bad it didn't stick around longer (no pun intended, no rim shot).
Check out the R30 fantrip page for plenty of these.
in last sunday's new york times, there was an article in section 14 "the city" under the column heading "city lore" an article by jim rasenberger entitled "stairways to heaven"... he points out that several times a day millions of new yorkers step into elevator cabs for quick vertical rides...
in the early days, elevators were called "moveable rooms" and were elegantly decorated with cushioned seats, carved woods and gas chandeliers... he points out several elevators still existing in new york city that still have some style...
haughwout building on broadway and broome has a cab dating back to the 1890's
cooper union has a relatively modern stainless steel cylindrically shaped elevator from 1972
chrysler building's outside elevator doors are elegant
the new york central building at 230 park ave has elevator cabs with ceilings that have blue skies and varying cloud formations...
time hotel at 224 west 49th has a glass elevator that travels one floor from the street level to the lobby one floor up...the elevator deposits you in the middle of the lobby...
i couldn't find this article in the new york times on the web... perhaps section 14 is not archived...
i know david pirmann is interested in elevators... in fact, i think the main library in jersey city has an old elevator still manually operated...
anyone else into elevators??? do you know of any otis's elevators with the circular hand operated controls still operating in public spaces... i know there are probably many still used as service elevators in older buildings...
anyone interested in doing an elevator field trip... i may just float around the city tomorrow doing some riding, if they let me into the buildings...
anyone else into elevators??? do you know of any otis's elevators with the circular hand operated controls still operating in public spaces... i know there are probably many still used as service elevators in older buildings...
I'm into elevators. 37 West 47th Street in the Diamond District still had manually operated elevators in 1995. It's unlikely that it changed.
you mentioned 37 west 47th street in the diamond district... if that is a building for people in the diamond trade, i imagine access to the building is limited...
i wonder if anyone has ever tried to set a record of riding elevators in new york city?
are you into old elevators, or does your taste in subway cars extend to elevators?
there used to be an old elevator operator joke about the difficulties of being an elevator operator...
"it's not the ups and downs that get you, it's the jerks in between"
on the site of the current lirr train yards around w.33
and 10th ave, stood the west side terminal of railway express... in one of my summer jobs while in college, i worked on the loading platform at west side loading trucks and railroad cars... they had a gigantic freight elevator which was an a manually operated otis elevator with the circular speed and direction control which i operated a few times... they also had battery operated dinkys that pulled the carts around the terminal... that was another world...
Hey Paul, try Bowlmor Lanes on University bet 12 & 13 St.
Last I checked you accessed the establishment via a manually-
controlled elevator with a flopover control, though it wasn't
an OTIS ( I want to say "Wasson", but that was a trolley car
builder).
thanks jeff... it's a self service manually controlled elevator?...
a couple of the big elevator companies were gurney, ab see which i think was based in brookyn or nyc, westinghouse,
a&s in brooklyn used to have elevator operators who had a very professional look...
oh yeah... another thing they had in the big office buildings were elevator starters, who would give the individual elevator operators the okay to take off... i used to like to watch the master board showing the each elevator and what floor it was on, and what floors were calling for up and down... the cars themselves often had a board with varying types of indication to tell an elevator operator where he had to make a stop... an experience operator could really fly and bring the car to a stop right on level... almost like the subways...
The Museum of Natural History had two pairs of manually operated elevators in the portion nearest to CPW. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they're still there. During our two visits in May of 1967, first one bank was out of service, then two weeks later, the other bank. Of course, nothing compared to standing in the basement and looking through the subway entrance as an express train went by.
They're automated now. And the subway entrance is closed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're kidding. You mean there's no more direct access to the subway from the museum basement? I didn't realize it's been that long since I've been there (1979 or thereabouts).
Not at the time I was there (early '99, I think). The doors are still there, just closed off.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
are you into old elevators, or does your taste in subway cars extend to elevators?
I'm into unique and eccentric elevators, young or old.
there is a novel called "the intuitionist" written by colson whitehead, which is a rather strange story about elevator inspectors set in a large city in the future... there is a group of inspectors who check elevators not by performing standard tests, but divining the spiritual health of the elevator... the book is not a kid's book, and gets into the whole power structure and the elevator industry since its beginnings... it is quite strange... the author lives in brooklyn...it's in the libraries and showing "on the shelf" in a branch near you...
how about a new website nycelevators.org
david pirmann has a link here to elevator magazine, which has a message board that is part of their elevator museum...
i just put up a post there asking for more suggestions of interesting elevators in the city...
elevator bulletin board
their message board is pretty quiet... perhaps several of our more prolific and controversial posters could go over there and give it a "lift"
the look of the message board is so much like subtalk, that i wondered if david pirmann helped set it up..
it dosn't work
what doesn't work??... my link?... i just clicked on it and went there...
it's working now
I didn't help set it up but it's using the same original code (webbbs) so it has the exact same look and feel...
oh... thanks for the info...
i'm getting ready to lauch an hps virus attack on that board too...
dave... are you familiar with rolland harrison's website?... it was really loaded with wonderful stories of installlers and technicians..
Well, heypaul, this is one subject that certainly has its ups and downs...
BMTman
You can say that again.:-)
heyopaulie
you wanna take a construction elevator. You Know, the ones whater on da outside of new builings what are going up.
Check out the cable on it. hee hee hee Yer heart'll be in yer troat. hee hee hee. Do you like cages? whata friggin view!
avid, the tin knocker
hey avid... i'm afraid a construction elevator would be too much exposed for my anxieties...have you ever been on one?... if so, bring your experience over to
elevatortalk
i used to make deliveries to the construction site in williamsburg brooklyn where they were working on a shaft for water tunnel... there was an elevator that went far down there, which is another ride i would pass on..
i am trying to decide whether to include revolving doors within the scope of elevatortalk, or set up a separate revolvingdoortalk...
Or perhaps escalatortalk?
I've always had a rather strong fascination with elevators that predates my interest in subways by many years (I was riding in elevators a long time before I ever rode my first subway train.) I was always particularly fascinated by the banks of multiple elevators found in downtown Cincinnati (my original hometown), as well as the (to me) incredibly fast elevators to the top of Carew Tower -- a far cry from the slow single elevators in suburban shopping malls that I was used to.
Now, of course, I'm in what you might call elevator Nirvana... My apartment building's ancient freight elevator is basically an open cage with a manual controller (the shaft is actually right next to my bathroom), and I work on the 54th floor of the Sears Tower. With multiple banks of incredibly fast double-deck express elevators and an elaborate system of skylobbies and local elevators, the Sears Tower is the Mother Lode of elevators.
Our express elevators even have Internet access now, of all things. Small flat-panel LCD displays inside the elevator cabs show current news headlines, stock market status, and traffic and weather info. (I still haven't figured out how to access SubTalk from these things, though, but this morning the only thing showing as a DOS prompt and several error messages.)
I'm not as familiar with New York's elevators as I am with Chicago's, but I can think of one set of elevators to reccomend if you like circular glass elevators in soaring atrium spaces: The Marriott Marquis at Times Sqaure. The building's exterior is a horrible piece of urban design (designed by an Atlanta architect, the building looks like it was designed for downtown Atlanta) and the interior is very glitzy with little substance, but the atrium space with the central core of exposed elevators forms a surreal space that is almost impossible to comprehend. I highly reccomend a ride up to the top of the atrium; I've done it a few times and so far no security goons have harrassed me.
Here in Chicago, my favorite elevators include: The glass elevators at Water Tower Place and at the State of Illinois Center, the express elevators in the Sears Tower (naturally), the express elevators in the Hancock Center (for some reason they seem to have much fast accelleration and deceleration than those in the Sears Tower), and the elevator in the Brewster Apartments in Lakeview: A beautiful old manual cage elevator set within an open light court and surrounded by an ornate cast iron staircase. I've been told the Fine Arts Building also has an excellent cage elevator, but so far I have yet to go check it out.
-- David
Chicago, IL
david... i go back a long way with elevators also... when i moved in my apartment building where i live now in 1954, it was fascinated by the two elevators... i used to ride them up and down all day, until the people in the building used to complain... some of the older building elevators have a smell about them that bring back a lot of memories... the old otis apartment building elevators had a little round glass covered dial by the push buttons that would show what floor the elevator was on, assuming it was still working... some of the others used to have a little bulb lit small round dial saying car is coming... then some elevators had a big pointer over the elevators on each floor which moved and pointed to the floor that the car was on... ( reminds me of an old 3 stooges episode where they're in an elevator being chased by a gorilla who grabs ahold of the pointer from the outside of the elevator and starts sending the car speeding up and down).
david i just checked an old tape i have of a bob villa home show where he took a tour of old chicago buildings and they stopped in the rookery, which had quite an interior, especially the spiral staircase... i think they were in the process of restoring the building about 7 years ago.... paul
david i just checked an old tape i have of a bob villa home show where he took a tour of old chicago buildings and they stopped in the rookery, which had quite an interior, especially the spiral staircase... i think they were in the process of restoring the building about 7 years ago.... paul
Very true... The restoration/renovation of the Rookery is now complete, and the results are breathtaking. No wonder that building is apparently now the most expensive building in Chicago in which to lease office space.
The Rookery has a fascinating history, and one shudders to think of how it has been mistreated over the years before its long-awaited restoration. Here's an excerpt from City of the Century: The Epic of Chicago and the Making of America by Donald Miller (a must-read book for anybody with even the slightest interest in Chicago history):
The building, completed in 1888, was named for the one that was torn down to make way for it. After the Great Fire, a temporary city hall and water tower had been built at LaSalle and Adams Streets. There was a horse barn in the rear that attracted droves of pigeons and crows, and Chicagoans began calling their ramshackle municipal building "the rookery." But a "rook" is also a name for a cheat and a swindler, and the moniker called to mind the corrupt aldermen who "roosted" at 209 South LaSalle Street. [Majority stockholder] Brooks wanted a more dignified name, but Chicagoans would accept no other, [investment partner] Aldis informed him. Perhaps to make certain the name stuck, the irreverent [architect] Root had two pairs of laughing rooks -- Old World birds akin to the North American crow -- carved into the building's granite entrance arch.
Luckily for me, the Rookery is only two blocks away from the Sears Tower and on my way to the subway, allowing me to laugh back at the rooks as I pass by them each day.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I like elevators (escalators, too), though I don't follow them as a hobby.
There are some favorite old elevators that I wonder if they're still around. One is the elevator in the American Bank Note Building down at Beaver and Broad. I worked in the building and was told that the elevator (1st to 3rd floors only) was one of the first ever made and one of the oldest anywhere still in operation. I never got to ride it or look inside it (that was for the execs) but I could hear the mechanism working down in the dungeon where I worked. Last time I looked the building housed a couple of fast food joints (!) and I didn't have anyway of see ing how much of the original building interior remains or whether the elevator is still there, working or not.
Another elevator (or rather bank of elevators) was in the oldest of the A&S buildings in Brooklyn. A&S was pieced together from several individual buildings, and the oldest part had the oldest fittings. Even as the main buildings had modern elevators, the oldest building had great old elevators where you could see out all of the sides, and watch the mechanism and the other elevators. Still there?
I've never operated a train or trolley in regular passenger service, but I have operated an elevator. When my work at the Hagstrom Company on lower Broadway was slow and the company sent the elevator operator out on deliveries, the "old man" specified that I was to operate the elevator. I guess he liked me ;-).
It was a mechanical job, no self-spotting except it automatically dropped to half speed approaching the top and bottom floors and stopped at those floors. Hairiest moment operating that elevator was when a guy on the third floor had a seizure or something and had to be removed by medics. The elevator was packed going down and I had to twist around to try to see the floor. It took a few tries to get the elevator level enough at the first floor with the suits and the medics getting more and more irritated with me.
Do you follow "Great Elevators in Fiction"? Stephen King's The Shining had a pretty frisky jobby.
There was an old office building in downtown South Bend called the Odd Fellows Building which had manual elevators with no inside car gates. You could plainly see each floor gate as the car would pass it. My dentist had his office on the fourth or fifth floor before moving to a new office, and my mother used to go to a yarn store on the eighth floor. There was a nice view to the east from that store.
I like elevators. While not an Otis, there are three manually operated elevators in my grandmother's apartment building on the Upper East Side. A few of the elevator men who shall rename anonymous let me drive the elevator if no one else is waiting. Also, the Riverside Memorial Chapel at 75th and Amsterdam (I think that is the corner, it is definately in that area) has manually operated elevators.
The 181st and 190th Street stations on the 'A' and the 191st Street station on the '1' have elevators outside fare control, unlike 168th Street, Court Street or Clark Street. The '1' and 'A' run well below Saint Nicholas and Fort Washington Avenues respectively, and all the platforms of all three stations are roughly on level with Broadway, which runs parallel in a deep valley between them.
At each station, after exiting fare control one can take an elevator straight up to the Avenue of operation, or walk through fairly level tunnels of varying length to Broadway- or Bennett Avenue, which runs one block west of Broadway.
I've seen people pushing shopping wagons through the tunnels from shopping on Broadway, and then up the elevator to Saint Nick or Fort Wash. Interestingly, on Saturdays many Orthodox Jews use these elevators between their homes along Fort Wash and synagogues on Bennett. Apparently, riding an elevator does not violate the Sabbath as long as there's an operator and no buttons need to be pushed.
Hence, elevators can be used as a free neighborhood shuttle service. Of course, two high ridges running north-south the length of the Heights make it necessary.
that's interesting... i didn't know that the elevators were outside of fare control... do you know if the cars are relatively modern cars, or are any of them older cars with an operator?
They are really freight elevators, since they're large like that an appointed in nothing more than bare stainless steel. They have pressable buttons, but they have operators, which IMHO is useless. I guess they're there for security, but since they're unarmed, it's useless.
Useless? Have you heard of them getting mugged?
I always thought that at 190 on the A that they were inside the fare zone.n They were when I was a kid in the early 50s
Naw, they changed it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Nope. The elvators take you from Fort Tryon Park down to the turnstiles, outside of fare control.
--Mike
I believe that the rule for riding an elevator on the Sabbath is that it's OK to ride along so long as it's going anyway. Operator or self-service should make no difference.
i think it would be a violation of the sabbath to press a button, thus making an electrical contact... i've seen in several apartment buildings, automatic elevators put on a sabbath service, where they stop on every floor...
KMA is correct. As long as the elevator is going anyway, it's okay for a Sabbath-observant Jew to ride the elevator PROVIDED a non-Jew is also riding the elevator or the elevator is "scheduled" to go to the other floor regardless of whether anyone is riding in it.
I'm intrigued by this thread. Forgive me for going off-topic somewhat. If what you say is true, then couldn't a Sabbath observer ride the subway since it is scheduled to go to the other stops regardless of whether anyone rides it, and a non-Jew is likely riding it, too? Is there really any difference?
--Mark
no because he would have to use the turnstile which is electric, or carry tokens which is like money that he can't use
Ahhh .. the price of entry. Good point. Thanks!
--Mark
It's not the carrying of money, per se, that is prohibited on the Sabbath. Strictly speaking, I believe, the rule prohibits the carrying of anything. IIRC, the strictly observant go so far as to attach handkerchiefs to their clothing so that they are not "carrying" them on the Sabbath.
I understand that the rule is somewhat different in a walled city. Don't ask me why.
Now, if the TA were to sell funpasses in the form of ink stamps on the forearm, sold each Friday afternoon until sundown and valid until sundown Saturday, . . . .
In addition, the automatic operation must begin before Shabbat does.
They programed it 1 hour before to 1 hour after it ended
This must expalin why they can't ride in someone else's car on Shabbat.
There's another interpretation (which would apply to subways, also, even if that didn't involve paying a fare) that states one's aanimals are not to work as well; i.e., a car or train is analogous to an animal used or ridden for transportation. Of course, with automobiles and non-ATO trains, there is the matter of the driver/operator/engineer working for your benefit, as well.
It's not just animals, it's human servants. On the Sabbath one must not only not do any "melacha," one must also give a day of vacation to their servant and their mule.
Most hospitals have a "Shabbos elevator" as well.
It's generally accepted that it's also not acceptable to ask someone else to press a button for you; it's only OK to ride if the elevator is "going there anyway." An Orthodox ex-girlfriend had the guard in the dorm trained to call the elevator for her, push her floor, and step out if he saw her coming on Shabbos. It's all presonal preference, really; I'm hardly practicing, but on the occasions when I do observe, I prefer to take the stairs rather than be hypertechnical about it (even when I lived on the fifteenth floor).
And, then, there are Jews who eat cheeseburgers but won't touch a BLT.
Who ever said religion was rational?
It's not rational. It's very personal. You practice it the way you want, in the manner that's most comforting to you. Some follow the "published" rules more so than others.
Whatever makes you happy...
When I was in Israel last May, the hotel had a Shabbos Lift(Sabbath Elevators to the Gentiles) It stopped at every floor going up, but was express going down automatically. So if you were on the 3rd floor and wanted to go down, you either walked or rode up to the top and then went down(this was the Crowne Plaza in Jerseulam (I can t spell)
Those are my 'vators! 181 on the A is my home station, and indeed the elevators are for everyone.
At the 185th St end often you'll see people coming through the corridor from Bennett at Booth level and heading right into the elevators for the ride up to Fort Washington.
All the operators are unusally courteous, and will always exchange pleasantries, like "thank you" and "good night."
This is also the home of the famous Bruce Renfroe elevator that he keeps decorating and assorted killjoys complain and make him undecorate.
--Mike
After I walked up that broken escalator (they always break at the Main st station) and to the N20/21 bus stop, I noticed that the Roosevelt Diner had closed. Alot of TA employees and LI Bus drivers always ate there and used the bathroom. Now Flushing doesn't even have a diner/coffee shop. Seems like the Korean section (by Roosevelt and Union) is the worst, and the LI Bus stop is right there. Seems like the older part of the Main st station is still the busiest, since most businesses are on Main street, especially south of the railroad overpass.
Well they are having their Lunar New Year celebration tomorrow, I wonder if it'll effect the subway entrances or bus routes. It used to be called the Chinese new year celebration until the Koreans started taking over Flushing.
I'm going though, I'm sure there should be alot of chinese stuff going on.
It used to be called the Chinese new year celebration until the Koreans started taking over
It makes no sense, since the Chinese calendar isn't the only lunar calendar.
It's actually a Buddhist calender, not any specific nationality's.
Then it should be called the Buddhist New Year! and everybody would be happy.
The calander is the same since it is Buddhist, but the chinese celebrate it the most.
No. It's racists/bigots/people who don't know better who call it 'Chinese New Year' They assume that persons with Pacific-Asian features are all Chinese, although that shifted in recent years to Japanese.
-Hank
Channel 4 got the story way wrong tonight, it had Saturday's parade as a mainly Korean event. The media can be so stupid and mis-informed.
It's racists/bigots/people who don't know better who call it 'Chinese New Year'.
That's funny... I have a couple of Koreans on my staff and one of them told me he was taking the day off the other day to head up to the City to celebrate the Chinese New Year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's commonly known as the "Chinese New Year" because the calendar was developed in China. Calling it the "Lunar New Year" is misleading. Rosh HaShana is when I celebrate the "Lunar New Year." I'm sure to those who observe it, "New Year" is sufficient, with no Chinese, Korean, Lunar, Asian, or other adjective associated with it.
Gong Xi Fa Cai!
You know, if you look at every other 'New Year', you see excited celebration. You look at Rosh Hashana, you see solemn.
I can't stand it.
-Hank
I'm assuming you're Jewish Hank, but out here we celebrate it with great fanfare. My daughter's boyfriend is Jewish and his family has a big dinner and celebration. There are relatives of all shapes and sizes there and some of the celebrants are not even Jewish. I was somewhat perplexed by you statement but since you know more about it than I do perhaps you can give me a reason why it should be a solemn occasion.
I'm Jewish myeslf. I'd have to say that Rosh ha-Shannah is both joyous and solemn. It's joyous in the way that other "New Years" are, but solemn because it is leading up to Yom Kippur. Rosh ha-Shannah marks the beginning of the soul-searching that culminates for Yom Kippur's fasting for our sins.
Andrew
Then it is Passover that's a joyous holiday with no sadness and sorrow. Is that right?
Oy! What would a Jewish Holliday be without suffering and sorrow? ;-D Well, Hanukkah's pretty happy, and so is Purim. Passover is mostly happy, BUT there is an element of sorrow for the Egyptians killed in the ten plagues and the parting of the Red Sea.
:-)
Not really... we still feel sorrow for those who died when the Red Sea closed over them. Now Purim... that's a celebration! The only one who died was the evil Haman, and we are commanded to drink until we cannot tell the difference between Ashuaheras (Queen Esther's husband, the king who very nearly fell for Haman's plan to exterminate us, until we were saved by Esther) and Mordechai (Queen Esther's cousin and advisor). We dress in costume, we make lots of noise, we eat (OK, so we eat at every holiday, except Yom Kippur - and even then we break the fast with a spread to die for) - I guess that's why we all tend to gain weight, because Yom Kippur is one day of fasting and all our other holidays are one to eight days of eating!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now I'm really confused. When is Purim? Is it related to any other of the Jewish holidays. I'd ask my friends, the Gottesmanns, but they are out of town. Clear this u p, will you?
Purim is usually about a month before Passover. It is also a freedom holiday and joyus. What kind of history teacher are you anyway???
Now I'm really confused. When is Purim? Is it related to any other of the Jewish holidays. I'd ask my friends, the Gottesmanns, but they are out of town. Clear this up will you?
Purim is on the fourteenth of Adar (fifteenth in Jerusalem), or 30 days before Passover.
Hmmm. Pork, if you're Jewish, then you sure made an interesting choice for a username!
:-) Andrew
Not really. Humans are not kosher, but can be Jews.
Jews and Pigs (and Muslims and Pigs) are greatest friends because of the lack of porcine eating that saves millions of pig lives.
Well, the story of Purim is best told in the scroll of Esther... but since I don't feel like typing that much, here are some links to websites that will tell you a bit more about the holiday.
Purim on the Web
Purim at VirtualJerusalem.com
Purim on the Net
Purim (this is an Orthodox site located in Israel)
And there are more, these are just four of many.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Prizes, noisemakers, treats and lots of food. I got it all on the web. Thanks. Now I know when it comes, as I should already know but I have not asked any of my Jewish friends about its date for reasons I can't fathom. I take it that is is the most joyous holiday for the Jewish people. I got it now. Thanks Anon and Pork.
I take it that is is the most joyous holiday for the Jewish people.
That and Simchas Torah :)
Absolutely. I should have mentioned that one as well - especially considering it's my personal favorite - but with Purim coming up relatively soon, I didn't think about it at the time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK guys, when does that fall? I've never heard of it.
Just a few days after Yom Kippur. We celebrate the giving of the Torah to Moses by dancing around the synagogue, carrying the Torah, and being happy in general.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It comes right after Succot, which is an 8 day holiday that starts on the 5th day after Yom Kippur.
You can say that Simchat Torah is the tenth day of Succot, since Succot is immediately followed by Shmini Atzeret, which is followed by Simchat Torah.
You gentlemen sure have a lot of holidays, but it's a wonder you can keep track of them. I thought I had them all down by now, and then you throw me three more. I should write them down because that's the only way to remember them. Thanks for the info.
Fred, here's another link that you might find useful:
Jewish Holidays
It lists the major ones from a Reform perspective, which means it doesn't cover all the ones celebrated within Orthodoxy, but it also provides a link to an excellent calendar that will tell you when they will fall for the next several years. (And remember that our calendar runs from sundown to sundown, so the holiday actually begins the evening before the Julian date given in the calendar.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks Anon. I downloaded the website you told me about, but it still confounds me. I counted 13 major Jewish religious holidays and that has to lead to some confusion. Don't you ever get them mixed up sometimes? We have only two major ones, Easter and Christmas, so even a moron can figure which is which. But 13? Wow! Let me ask you this: Which Jewish holiday is the most celebrated. Ours in Easter. Do Jews have one, or are three or four equal in importance? You really got my interest in this.
We Catholics have other holidays which are classified as Holy Days of Obligation. In other words, we're supposed to attend Mass on such days. They are: Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God (January 1; nothing to do with New Year's Day BTW); Feast of the Ascension (40 days after Easter); Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary (August 15); Feast of All Saints (November 1); Feast of the Immaculate Conception (December 8); and, of course, Christmas. Except for Christmas, the obligation is waived if a Holy Day falls on Saturday. It was also waived this year on January 1, since it fell on Monday. Oddly enough, Ash Wednesday is not a Holy Day.
Oddly enough, Ash Wednesday is not a Holy Day.
Because alternate side parking rules are suspended anyway.
We Catholics have other holidays which are classified as Holy Days of Obligation. In other words, we're supposed to attend Mass on such days. They are: Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God (January 1; nothing to do with New Year's Day BTW)
Hmmmm ... I had thought that the religious holiday on January 1 commemorates the fateful day when the Baby Jesus suffered the unkindest cut of all :-)
All true Steve, but to Catholics the two I mentioned stand out and are always observed by the faithful. Sad to say, but I haven't always observed some of t he other holy days and neither do many of my co-religionists. If you observe them all, you have my respect.
Well, from the perspective of most Jews, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are the most important; although they are two separate holidays they are referred to as the High Holy Days and are connected by what are known as the Days of Awe. Passover, however, is the most celebrated holiday, perhaps because otherwise non-observant secular Jews can relate to the gathering of family and friends that begins the holiday (the seder meal). The holiday that is most familiar to non-Jews, Chanukah, is an extremely minor holiday that has a much higher profile in this country than elsewhere. A lot of non-Jews equate it with Christmas because it falls at approximately the same time of year, but of course there is absolutely no connection between the two.
We're really drifting a long way off topic, but I'll offer one additional thought: from what I understand, Christians believe that G-d, through Jesus, forgives all sin. Jews, on the other hand, believe that only the person who is sinned against can forgive that sin; G-d can only forgive sins against G-d. That is why we are commanded to seek forgiveness from those we have wronged during the Days of Awe, if we have not already done so, for if we do not seek it until it is obtained, or failing that at least three times, it will be permanently on our record. That is the importance of Rosh Hashanah, the Days of Awe, and Yom Kippur.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just curious, why do you always write God as G-d?
Peace,
ANDEE
Respect, tradition... depending on how one interprets the law, a paper printed with the name fully spelled out would have to be buried in a cemetary (as are worn-out prayer books, Torahs damaged beyond repair, etc.) rather than simply thrown out or recycled. I'm personally ambivalent on this but I respect the opinions of those who accept that point of view and act accordingly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank You.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Passover seder is a celebration, but it's also a reminder of how the Jews narrowly escaped being slaves to Egypt. Unfortunately, the elaborate dinner involved has become a lot of work and a nuisance to those who must prepare it, in much the same way Christmas and its attendent chores have become a nuisance to Gentiles.
The only seder I ever went to to was done the 'right' way, which is to say we finally ate at about 10:00- it being a Friday night required a lot of extra reading from the Haggadah. I don't know how the frail, diabetic, aged or otherwise health challenged can go so long without eating.
Then there's the dietary restrictions that must be followed- if you choose to do so. I hate matzoh, tuna, chopped liver and horseradish, and it seems like you're not allowed to eat much of anything else. No bread products, pasta, rice, beans, corn, peas, nuts, or other stuff I can't remember. My family never observed the rules; my wife tries to, but usually cracks after about three days.
I don't even know WHAT this has to do with another blow to Flushing, but to bring it back to transit on an extremely contrived note, but what the Jewish holidays mean to me- and I hope the observant will forgive me- is that (if the calendar cooperates) my office is closed, there's no alternate side, transit is on a full weekday schedule and everything's somewhat less crowded.
Atlantic City's another good option.
Actually wasn't Flushing a jewish enclave at a certain time?
Then there's the dietary restrictions that must be followed - if you choose to do so. I hate matzoh, tuna, chopped liver and horseradish, and it seems like you're not allowed to eat much of anything else. No bread products, pasta, rice, beans, corn, peas, nuts, or other stuff I can't remember.
You must not have been blessed with any creative cooks in your family. Being Sephardic, I'm not held to all of the restrictions you cite - we refrain from anything containing yeast, but other than that there aren't too many restrictions. And how do you make charoses without chopped almonds to help stiffen the mortar?
I'm of like mind to you on the tuna and chopped liver, though :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does that have anything to do with the Feast of Unleavened Bread? Or is that tied to Passover?
Unleavened bread is matzoh, so I would assume that it is the same as Passover.
Sometimes I wish I was Sephardic. Looser definitions on Passover. Also, I've seen Sephardic synagogues throughout Israel that put us Ashkenazim to shame! Also the decorative covers on the Torah scrolls--nice touch! I should compliment your ancestors on a wise move of not going to Europe but instead to the (then) relatively tolerant Muslim world.
:-) Andrew
I should compliment your ancestors on a wise move of not going to Europe but instead to the (then) relatively tolerant Muslim world.
They still got chased around a bit - the fall of the Moorish Empire drove them from Spain to Portugal, thence to the Portuguese Islands and Brazil, then to the Dutch colony in what is now Brazilian territory, and from there to New Amsterdam and then Newport, Rhode Island. And then, on 26 June 1896, Maud Arvilla Maccabee married Dr. John Leverett of Yonkers, New York, and the rest is history.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow! Then your Sephardic family has probably been in America far longer than my Ashkenazi family!
Most Sephardic Jews I know are just off the boat from Israel or elsewhere in the Mideast.
:) Andrew
Since the 1650s... I also have some Christian ancestors (Dr. John Leverett was of stout Puritan stock) who arrived in Boston in 1633 (Thomas Leverett and his son John, who later became Governor of Massachusetts), and others who arrived in Salem in 1626 (the Saltonstall family).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
WHich is why I feel so detached, I suppose. The last time I volunterily stepped into a Shul was for my cousin's Bat Mitzvah. THe next time will be my wedding. No telling when after that.
-Hank
Your wedding? Yee gads, I thought you tied the knot right after the World Series. You're not getting cold feet, are you? Come on, go to it. Bachelorhood really sucks when you get right down to it.
Bachelorhood really sucks when you get right down to it.
Why?
Getting married is like trading your mother for another woman, except that you get to combine a girlfriend with it. I'd prefer to have a girlfriend, but live with no one. I don't need someone to ask me where I'm going all the time, and I certainly don't want to overpopulate the world.
Pork, you may know a lot about the subway, but by your answer you are wet behind the ears as far as coupling is concerned. You will find this out. If you meet the right girl there is nothing that can compare to marriage. I thought your way once. I learned. You will too.
Pork, you may know a lot about the subway, but by your answer you are wet behind the ears as far as coupling is concerned. You will find this out. If you meet the right girl there is nothing that can compare to marriage.
You mean, if he meets the right sow.
mAYBE HE COULD MEET THE RIGHT SCHWEIN IN GERMANY
Expect a response on that one Pete, but I have to admit, that was a hell of a crack. Good show.
Oh, I wouldn't say that. I'm shall we say happily single. For example, I figure if I want to blow a few bills on some Flyer trains, I don't have to ask anyone first. One holiday stands out for us: Independence Day.:-)
While I haven't ruled out marriage, I'm not actively pursuing it. I figured that if I were still single when I turned 40, I'd probably stay that way. Well, I have, still am, and most likely will remain so.
That's nice. And it makes it much easier to change mates if it's neccessary.
And the best thing: No miniature people in the house.
Always has been planned for this year. We just moved in together, and I've discovered that I need to do all the cooking. Who BAKES a London Broil???
-Hank
Now you're getting it Hank. She will learn how to cook, but, believe me, cooking is now a two way street. I love to cook and I can whip up some real neat rice dishes, with seafood, chicken, curry, etc. At least you're almost there. Have you decided on when the big day is?
Nothing wrong with the husband doing a lot of the cooking. I probably do 60-70 percent of the cooking in my household. However, my wife is more on the ball with cleaning. We try to divide our household chores as evenly as possible, and for the most part it works quite well.
:-) Andrew
Rosh HaShana is excited celebration; it's Yom Kippur that's solemn. Of course, Rosh HaShana can be solemn for those who can't decide what to wear for the first of their two trips to Shul for the year ;)
Pork is correct.
BTW, ALL Asian people celebrate the 'Chinese New Year'. Japanese, Koreans, Tiawanese, etc, etc. So I don't understand what John is talking about here (not that I'm surprised).
BMTman
?? "" I am sure there is a lot of chinese stuff going on ""....!!!??
man that is really an ( ON TOPIC ) post about rail transit systems worldwide !!
Please shut up until you have something to contribute other than your personal opinions of what is on or off topic dependant upon how YOU feel about the subject.
-Hank
If that's the place I'm thinking of,it's very unfortunate. I was in the area back in November and stopped in for a coffee. It's kind of nostalgic with the old cash register in there. I think they served mainly sandwiches and donuts.
Yeah, it's yet another loss of long established establishments in Flushing. Of course, if I want to go to Wendy's I have to go out of my way, since there is no where for "edible" hamburgers anywhere in Flushing.
I still insist that if that shooting happened to a Wendy's in Nassau county, it would've re-opened. If I could afford to bet, 20 bucks says that if the shooting happened in a suburban location it would have re-opened.
I see all kinds of people in Flushing, I can't understand why there is such a lack of burger and fries places. (there are only now two places to get a hamburger in Flushing and both of 'em suck!)
One cool thing about L.A., besides McDonald's, Burger King, and Wendy's, they have In and Out and Carl's JR.
I still insist that if that shooting happened to a Wendy's in Nassau county, it would've re-opened. If I could afford to bet, 20 bucks says that if the shooting happened in a suburban location it would have re-opened.
With your financial situation, you should make losing bets like that.
I think the only long time establishment left on that block is the pizza place at the top of the hill.
Yup, that's T.J.'s, and by the looks of things who knows how long they'll last?
The only new, non-asian food establishment that opened in Flushing recently is the Starbucks which is near Main & Kissena. Of course yuppies get a place to eat. I dislike Starbucks and everything it symbolizes!!!
Of course yuppies get a place to eat. I dislike Starbucks and everything it symbolizes!!!
To you it symbolizes wealth. I guess that for you, you'd prefer that everybody be poor and live like crap. But that's better than having anybody better off than you, isn't it?
Actually I heard something very intersting on the news today. It isn't my imagination, the cost of a meal, even a simple fast food one, has gone up within the past year. And we can thank Starbucks, their upscle prices raised the bar, and soon other chains in Manhattan followed.
So you can thank Starbucks for all the Wendy's that charge a premium in Manhattan.
The only good deals in Manhattan are NYC transit and Chinatown.
No wonder why many suburbanites prefer shopping in the 'burbs. It's cheaper to get a meal, and you don't have trouble finding a bathroom.
If it wasn't for the NYC subway system and Chinatown, I'd have no use for NYC, unless I was well-off. Then again, NYC would be dead if it wasn't for the subway.
It just gets my ire up when you want to go someplace with a good mass transit system like NYC, you have to pay a premium for a meal. It just aint fair!!! :-(
And we can thank Starbucks, their upscle prices raised the bar, and soon other chains in Manhattan followed.
Where do you get these figures? The "Daily Worker?"
Prices have risen because RENTS have risen. Rents have risen because more and more people want to locate in Manhattan. Even with the higher prices that you claim (I have yet to see $1.09 Wendy's Nuggets, must be in the solid gold building on the street paved with diamonds), people are still packing in. If they're still filling all of their seats, they've lost NOTHING and only gained. That's how a capitalist society works. With the demand for eateries, another would open nearby in no time.
No wonder why many suburbanites prefer shopping in the 'burbs.
Um, because they're already there?
And don't tell me about finding a bathroom in the suburbs. Once I was in Nasty County and stopped at three gas stations, all of them with broken bathrooms (or so they claim), before I finally decided to hell with it and drive to the Hub and go to one of the malls.
I never had trouble finding a bathroom in Midtown.
It just gets my ire up when you want to go someplace with a good mass transit system like NYC, you have to pay a premium for a meal. It just aint fair!!! :-(
It's perfectly fair. You pay the premium to go someplace you like better, I guess other people feel the same way.
"(I have yet to see $1.09 Wendy's Nuggets, must be in the solid gold building on the
street paved with diamonds), people are still packing in. "
Wendy's at 7th and 34th across from Penn charges $1.19, so does the one at Union Square. In Rockefeller Center, they want $1.49!
This for 5 little chicken nugget pieces. And Biggie Fries are more too.
Even Wendy's conveniently by the 71st/Continental station in Queens, $1.19!!! Apparently some people can afford to pay those prices.
No matter what it takes I will boycott Premium Wendy's(tm)!!!
I refuse to pay that kind of money for "cheap" food.
Well that's why I have an unlimited Metrocard, as I may go a bit out of my way to save a little money.
Hey, AFAIK you don't work, thus hav no reason to travel. My "investment" advisory would be to stop spending at leat $63 a month on Metrocard. Another tip is that eating at home is cheaper than eating out (where you have to pay for those "mexicans" cleaning after you.)
Arti
... 5 little chicken nugget pieces ... $1.19 ...
With those prices, they are still decently priced if one's employed. Almost everything, and every good thing, costs money. Usually you get for what you pay for. After getting a job, those prices won't look as bad. What IS bad however are those prices for those dam Nathan's hot dogs in midtown: 2 hot dogs, + fries + drink for $5+??? That ain't gonna fill my stomach!
Otherwise what may be cheaper for the value that I know of in familiar Manhattan territory are those street vendors in Chinatown...
Just goes against my grain to pay 20 cents more for something just because it is in a different location. I'm not the only one.
Recently I ate at Wendy's in Elmhurst, and these people who were in back of me were talking about why they came to the Elmhurst Wendy's. They were closer to the one in Forest Hills, but said they cost more money. Everyone in my family (including my dearly departed mother) refused to be a victim of price gouging, plain and simple.
It's not that I can't afford 20 cents more for chicken nuggets, it's just my only way to make a statement and do the right thing.
20 cents here, 20 cents there, soon you'll find you've wasted enough money in a month to buy you some clothes or music.
Even for many working people, every penny counts. And when you ride buses and subways alot like me, that $17 Metrocard is a pretty good deal.
"I aint payin no premium prices!"
HELLO! It's NOT a premium! The higher price reflects the HIGHER COST of the location. If you want to go 3 miles out of your way to save 20 cents on chicken nuggets, that's your perogative. That's not priciple, that's stupidity. It's like paying the $4 toll for the Goethals bridges to save $.30 a gallon on gas, when you've got a 10-gallon tank.
-Hank
No matter what it takes I will boycott Premium Wendy's(tm)!!!
Great, another seat for me.
Actually I heard something very intersting on the news today. It isn't my imagination, the cost of a meal, even a simple fast food one, has gone up within the past year. And we can thank Starbucks, their upscle prices raised the bar, and soon other chains in Manhattan followed.
Starbucks is hardly the main offender, if it's an offender at all. High rents and utility costs are the main reasons why the cost of meals in the city has risen so much. If it weren't for the city's plentiful supply of cheap labor, prices would be even worse.
As far as Starbucks is concerned, well, while their prices are definitely on the high side, they do tend to have a nice relaxed atmosphere. You can sit and talk, or read, and kill plenty of time. And the workers - sorry, the "baristas" - are a laugh; they're (sort of) living proof that the Generation X/slacker lifestyle is not merely a stereotype.
The story was all over the news, on channel 5, on channel 7 I was stories that had business professionals saying Starbucks raised the bar on prices.
I still think that places like Wendy's are involved in price gouging.
Anything more than 10 cents above the regular price should be considered price gouging.
Not all of the cases are in high rent districts either. I remember getting a soda at a Coney Island McDonald's (right on the boardwalk) a few summers ago and I paid $1.40 for a small soda. CI isn't exactly a wealthy neighborhood. "Premium" Wendy's are just an example of how companies gouge on prices in high demand areas.
But it's my choice and I'm just not giving Premium Wendy's my business. I'd go out of my way just to avoid it. So I ask this question to people. Where are the food places (especially burger places) that offer a good value, that are close to major subway stations? I admit we all get into habits, and the Manhattan Mall food court was mine, now that it's closing I have to change.
[Anything more than 10 cents above the regular price should be considered price gouging. ]
IMHO anything less than $.10 should not be a currency. But with all seriousity please substaniate your claim.
[Premium" Wendy's are just an example of how companies gouge on prices in high demand areas. ]
Supply and demand, go to Kansas City and you can dine in a restaurant for the money you spend on fast food in NYC.
[So I ask this question to people. Where are the food places (especially burger places) that offer a good value, that are close to major subway stations? I admit we all get into habits, and the Manhattan Mall food court was mine, now that it's closing I have to change. ]
Try Fifth Avenue and 34th, don't know the prices, but they have a plethora of different joints next to each other (even White Castle, I've learned here is a cheap place.)
Arti
Where are the food places (especially burger places) that offer a good value, that are close to major subway stations?
My advice: Move to Chicago. You can get a bacon cheeseburger -- cooked to order -- with fries and a drink for less than $5 at almost any hot dog stand in the city. (Any place with a big yellow Vienna Beef sign hanging out front will do quite nicely.)
And you can get a large studio apartment on the lakefront for $550 a month, without having to put up your firstborn child as a security deposit, and you don't have to wait for somebody to die before moving in. And any realtor trying to charge a "finders fee" for showing an apartment in Chicago would be laughed out of business.
I tend to think of Chicago as New York Lite: All the big-city action, only a third of the expense. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
And you can get a large studio apartment on the [Chicago] lakefront for $550 a month, without having to put up your firstborn child as a
security deposit, and you don't have to wait for somebody to die before moving in. And any realtor trying to charge a "finders fee"
for showing an apartment in Chicago would be laughed out of business.
The difference between Chicago and New York, when it comes to the rental market, can be summed up in just three words: No Rent Control.
Biggest differences between the rental market in New York and Chicago:
1) As you mention, no rent control (Chicago hasn't had rent control since the Depression), and no asinine feel-good laws that make it impossible for landlords to evict squatters.
2) A political climate that strongly favors new construction, almost to a fault. City Hall realizes that more construction means more jobs and more tax revenue. More building permits have been issued in Chicago over the past few years than in any other US city except for Phoenix and Atlanta during the same time period, and the vast majority of that new construction has been residential. Even though most of it serves the high-income market, it still takes a significant strain off demand in the rental market as people "graduate" from renting and buy a condo, and thus free up more affordable apartments for others. Over the past few years, almost 3000 new housing units have been built in the downtown area alone, and the building boom is showing no signs of a slowdown anytime soon.
NIMBY groups occasionally raise a fuss about a new condo tower being built in their neighborhood, but City Hall usually does a pretty good job of crushing any opposition to a new project (especially when they or one of their cronies has a vested interest in that project). Not exactly the most democratic process, but it usually ends up benefiting the greater good.
The downside is that some affordable working-class neighborhoods are being quickly gentrified and historic structures are being knocked down to make way for bland new condo buildings, but hopefully we'll be able to resolve these problems without resorting to overly restrictive New York-style policies that usually only make matters worse in the long run.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The downside is that some affordable working-class neighborhoods are being quickly gentrified...
Interesting that you mention that, David. My wife and I were married in Rogers Park many, many years ago, when it was a gracefully-declining working-class neighborhood. At the time, my wife had not yet converted to Judaism and I was religiously a "nothing" anyway, so we were married in a church - the United Church of Rogers Park, 1545 W. Morse. In December '99 our younger daughter and I stopped by there while in Chicago on The Great Law School Tour so I could show her where her mother and I were married. We met the preacher - a very gracious Negro woman of about 55 years of age, I guess - and toured the church, which now serves two additional congregations besides the primary one. Her biggest complaint was that the neighborhood - which architecturally hadn't changed much since the '20s - was attracting young, relatively prosperous people who were cleaning it up and making it a nice place to live. This, in turn, meant fewer ratty tenements, fewer drug users, and fewer unemployed people in the community, which in turn was cutting into the number of souls she could "save" when they came to the soup kitchen run by the church. Apparently prosperity didn't fit into her master plan for her ministry there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ever hear the phrase "Prices and participation may vary." How do you know what the regular prices on these things are? EVERY chain with an national advertising campaign has this statement in their ads. Why? Because cost are different in different locations. Prime real estate, such as that in Rockefeller Center, costs signifcantly more than it does in Flushing. Costs to transport the goods to Rockefeller Center are also higher than they are for Flushing. You can't make up these differences in just volume. You need to have your revenues AT LEAST equal your costs. Anything over that is profit, which any enterprenuer is well entitled to. If you don't like the way the economic system works, then you can quit bitching, and move to a place where the economic system meets your liking. If you think an additional 10 cents for conveinience food is too much, I suggest you shoot yourself and then recycle the bullet.
-Hank
Well I guess that's a big downside to doing business in NYC.
At least for the consumer.
Consumer downside? That's the cost of living, working, and playing in New York. Take it, or leave it.
-Hank
Best thing to do is just eat somewhere else. And that's exactly what I'll do. As a consumer I don't buy anything if it's not a good deal, period. That's why I never ride peak on the LIRR. More crowded, and it costs twice as much!
Well, since you're sponging off the taxpayer, you have the time to do so. Those of us who work for a living can't afford that luxury.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Where are the food places (especially burger places) that offer a good value, that are close to major subway stations? I admit we all get into habits, and the Manhattan Mall food court was mine, now that it's closing I have to change."
3rd Avenue between 57 and 58. Wendy's, Mickey D's -- all the usual suspects. Just a short walk from the E,F,N,R,4,5 and 6 trains. Food prices fall to normal levels in Midtown east of Lexington Avenue.
CG
Thanks!
John, check out The Underground Guide to New York City Subways by Dave Frattini. It's not a huge wealth of subway trivia, but he lists a cheap restaurant for practically every stop in the system!
The only good deals in ... are NYC transit...
Not if you factor in the added cost of longer headways and slower running times. A three minute delay is equivalent to 25 cents at minimum wage. The running time for the Flushing Local has increased from 30 minutes to 33 minutes during the last 25 years.
These added costs are greater, if your time is worth more than the minumum wage. Probably, the only people who can still afford to ride NYCT are retirees and minors.
Betcha running times on city buses have increased even more than that!
Probably, the only people who can still afford to ride NYCT are retirees and minors.
Minors? Minor league baseball players or mispelled people who work in mines?
From "Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary Unabridged, Second Edition"
minor (n) 1. in law a person of either sex, under full legal age, who is not permitted by law to enjoy full civil rights.
Thank you. I really enjoy that definition, because it's REAL, it doesn't say "protected member of society." Instead it says oppressed member of society without using such harsh words.
Maybe the people in Flushing are just health conscious. Wendy's (and MacDonald's & Burger King, etc) probably killed an awful lot more people than those perps did in Flushing, murder by clogged arteries!!!
Sarge: Well said. But I have a question for you and anyone else who would venture an answer. When I was a kid, Flushing was a middle class white neighborhood with a sizeable black neighborhood within the area. Is that area predominately Asian now, and if so, what Asians? Japanese, Chinese, Viets, or Koreans?
The southern and western parts of Flushing are mainly chinese, alot from Taiwan. The northern and eastern portions, especially around Union street are mainly korean. There are also many other immigrant groups in the area.
There's a good Indian/Pakistan population a bit toward the East, and of course hispanics are there too.
We get alot of hispanic riders on the N20/21 from the east portion.
"I still insist that if that shooting happened to a Wendy's in Nassau county, it would've re-opened. If I could afford to bet, 20 bucks says that if the shooting happened in a suburban location it would have re-opened."
I can use those twenty dollars; I take checks, money orders, or wire transfers. :^)
There was a (still unsolved) massacre a few years ago in a chain chicken joint (Brown's Chicken) in suburban Chicago, Palatine specifically. Palatine is several miles from the city and strictly strip mall and subdivision territory, so we're NOT talking about an older suburb right on the city border that's essentially a part of the city in every way but on paper. Seven employees were shot dead in the freezer after closing the place for the evening. The place never reopened, and the only debate once the cops were done with the place was whether it should be torn down completely or reopened as something other than a restaurant. Nobody, especially Brown's or the franchise owners, even remotely thought of opening it up again as a Brown's Chicken.
What did they eventually do with it?
I remember the last time Commie John brought up the urban/suburban arguement, the McDonalds shooting in California was brought up. The place was torn down and is now a park.
Anyone know what happened to 'Luby's Cafeteria' down in Texas?
-Hank
IIRC, it wasn't torn down but was so remodeled it's unrecognizable as a restaurant, much less as a Brown's Chicken.
One cool thing about L.A., besides McDonald's, Burger King, and Wendy's, they have In and Out and Carl's JR.
The above statement is proof positive that you don't know what a decent burger is. None of them serve a burger that is more than barely tolerable - and Carl's is among the worst of the lot. Maybe if you like twice-cooked lard...
Me, I'll stick to a sit-down restaurant - a diner is fine - or if I'm in a hurry I can usually find a decent sub shop or deli wherever I go (the quality may vary, but I can guarantee that it will be better than a chain hamburger). And the savings in Maalox means it's actually cheaper.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It certainly didn't close for lack of business. Last time I was in there was on the Saturday morning of the December 30 snowstorm and it was packed as usual. The Roosevelt was debatably the last old-fashioned Greek/American diner in the area, and was considered by the older American Flushingites as the last place they could hang out and get a cup of coffee.
I remember when there was a Kosher-style deli right down the block. (It served ham, but had the big salamis and pickle jars in the window.)
It is a shame and a shock to see it go, as it was a convenient place to have breakfast before embarking on a transit expedition.
With Caldor also gone, it looks like the only place to relieve ones self is Sterns.
Actually they have good bathrooms in the Flushing Center Mall at the Sheraton on Roosevelt ave.
What is going on in Flushing is that I guess the asians are forcing everyone out, since some of the places (like the Roosevelt Diner) did well. Korean landlords are particularly agressive. There are Korean businesses all around the Roosevelt diner, and the landlord probably wanted the diner out.
As much as I'm into asian culture, I don't like seeing this happen.
Flushing used to be a Chinatown with mainstream stores, but it's looking more like a Koreatown with little if anything for non-asians to do.
I sure hope they get the reliability of the "F" line up to par, since I find Elmhurst alot better, with chinese stores as well as mainstream ones. And unlike Flushing, Elmhurst is getting major improvements that are going on right now. The former Stern's location is getting a major tenant, and Queens Center is going to be expanding.
Plus, with the 63rd street improvements, Queens Blvd subway service will improve. Alot of chinese have moved out of Flushing to Elmhurst, since it's cheaper, has better shopping, and access to many subway lines.
I'm sorry to hear that. I used to use that Diner all the time when I worked in the neighborhood a few years ago.
:-( Andrew
It is interesting to see the ever change scene in downtown Flushing. One can not forget though the Flushing of the late 70's. During that time, the downtown area was rapidly loosing business to regional shopping malls. Many small stores began closing down and more people just started to give up on the downtown area. At night, it was a ghost town and a place where you would not be caught alone either. It was in fact becoming a depressed area. The the Asian community came in an transformed Flushing right around in another direction, many because they believed in Flushing and its schools. So then came many families looking for a new beginning. Yes, the first wave were the Chinese, but then the Koreans began their exodus from their homeland. But times change, as many neighborhoods in the Big Apple are gentrified by new groups. Look at Cheleasa and Harlem, both areas are changing. Beside, anyone would agree that Queens County is so much more diverse now than any other regional area.
It doesn't look good for the R142.
My train (car #7239) was having door problems on BOTH sides going downtown at around 5:45 or 6:00 at GC. They close up at GC after about 20 attempts, but then have problems on the other side, first at 33rd then again at 28th. They never could get them closed, so they dumped us at 28th.
When they finally move the train out, with a crowded platform of disgruntled (now non-) passengers, it creeps out of the station, as if it is having trouble reaching speed. This is after a 10-15 minute delay, at not quite the height of rush hour. You can see the look on everyones' faces. 'Piece of crap.'
When the next train comes in (r62), already somewhat crowded, everyone that can fit squeezes in. The train goes about halfway to 23rd and stops. I can hear them frantically on the radio with the train ahead (r142), but not quite hear what they were saying. Then it is announced that there will be a delay due to a stalled train directly in front. I suspect that train limped all the way back to the Bronx.
And one other thing. The automated messages and signs were not being used. They work about 50% of the time from what I've experienced.
How much did they pay for these things?
And the saga continues. A buddy of mine works the #6 line as a conductor (I worked it myself from 9/95 to 9/98, well before the 142a's), and every time I speak to him on the phone he tells me what junk these trains are. His job does a put-in up in Westchester Yard, and more times than not if he gets a 142a to OK (transit slang for preparing a train for revenue service), something goes haywire and the end up with a Redbird instead. I personally think that these new trains are being rushed out without being thoroughly inspected, because, as usual, the TA is worried more about image than practicality.
This is why mike and zman 179 were lamenting how lousy it is to work for the TA. And then they get loudly criticized by the other posters! You go to work with a positive attitude, be constientious and try to do a good job and look at the junk the TA gives you to operate with? And I'm positive that the crew who took that R142 out of service got verbally abused by the public. And abused on the radio by Control Center because they didn't get everybody off the train fast enough! After a while, the job does take a toll on everybody! It wears you down! Recent new SubTalk poster Selkirk found out! I welcome all you SubTalkers to the TA who have been recently hired. Enjoy the honeymoon. It takes everybody different amounts of time to find out, but at one point you will find out how screwed up the place is, how much you are the bad guy to the passengers AND supervision if your train is significantly delayed or goes out of service for any reason because poor on time performance makes THEM look bad. At one point you will be as miserable as the veterans are! Mark my words! You are all alone out there!
I sure hate to have to agree here in front of the new guys. When I came to the ta late in 1970, I was as starry-eyed as it got (ohboy! ohboy! ohboy!) when I reported to 14th Street for opening day. I was ready to leap through any hoop they wanted, even willing to sit for the lecture from this guy Sarano or something like that who had a unique style of lecturing - "what happens if you don't grab this grab bar when you come down from between the cars? (raises hands up above his head and slaps them together with a loud report) - "DEAD!" ... "what happens if you touch this hunk of metal on the wheels? - SLAP! DEAD!" and on and on ... and this guy took a delight in rattling us any way he could including the hand slap behind our heads in the door simulators ...
What I learned in later service to the State in Albany (Cable Commission and then Public Shafting Commission) is that government service tends to attract an especially twisted set of people into management positions ... a specific kind of personality that would NEVER make it in the private sector ... they're called "control freaks" ... people who should have stayed in the army but alas, the army wanted them OUT for causing morale problems. Many of the management types I met while on the road definitely would have been fragged if TA employees were issued grenades.
I don't wanna whiz on anybody's pickup shoes here, but I would offer one bit of advice ... beware of the adminiswigs. They have nothing better to do with their pathetic little lives than to screw with yours. Keep your head down and wear a cup at all times. And cram a pillow down the back of your pants - you'll need it. :)
So....you think that "control freaks" wouldn't last in private industry? Guess again...
Needless to say that all that SLAP! and DEAD! stuff got into everyone's cranium huh? You don't forget anything when the word DEAD is highlighted in a statement towards ya.
Heh. But the instructor was just such a mook. Yeah, I tell ya. First day on the railroad, I had a BAD dose of the shakes ... I *still* remember him ...
Bill- there are things that we can not change. In any job we have to take the good as well as the bad.
Sure- there are things in my job that I would change to do differently but I have to obey the rules.
I realize there are bad supervisors, etc. out there but I am sure there are bad employees in any job title for any employer.
Yes, I still love my job.
We can only change what we can change. We must swallow our opinions and tell our customer the following:
"I am sorry we inconvenienced you. It is a hardship when a train is late, (or a MetroCard does not work, etc.). I know how you feel because I have to take the subway myself. I have been late because of train delays. I have lost money on Metrocards, etc."
The number one rule of customer service, as modified by Transit:
"The customer is always right if they ask for something within the boundaries of the rules."
(example- we cannot give a block ticket if trains are running only one way at our station [ ie- uptown runs express so only downtown trains stop at our station, uptown trains run on 6th avenue and we are on 8th avenue.] We have to tell them "I'd like to give you a block ticket but I am not allowed to. I am very sorry.")
Here is the problem a train operator or conductor has vs. that of a station agent: we do not have time to explain matters to the customers individually because time is always against us. If we have to take a train out of service, or get rerouted due to a G.O. or blockage ahead, we have to get out of there ASAP, because we are tying up the railroad behind us. It is 2 of us vs. perhaps 2,000 customers. Plus we have Control Center constantly blabbing: "Are ya movin', are ya movin'?. Despite all my rants I would not want to make a living doing anything else.
Bill:
I happen to think that you are doing a great job, in what seems to be
a rather hostile environment. It gets a little scary when you think
about (1) person (the T/O) is moving a 10 or 11 car train around
with all the problems popping up all over the place and the public
pressuring you to explain all the ways & whys.
Kudos to all of you on the system, and especially to you. I have met you on several fan trips here in Philly, and to say the least, I'm
impressed.
Hang in there!
Chuck Greene
Thanks Chuck. The jest of what mike, zman179 and I are trying to state is something you understand quite well. That this is a highly stressful job, no matter who you are and no matter how many years you've been doing it, you are under the microscope at all times. As soon as something goes wrong, and you as a crew member have no control over these matters, you are johnny on the spot having to answer to everybody and become somebody elses bad guy!
Exactly Bill.
And just to show you how stressful the job of T/O can be, here is what happened to me last week:
I was making my last run on the E at around 1pm. I was leaving 7th Av heading towards 5th Av. I had seen that all the signals were green so I had the train top speed going down the hill. As I headed towards 5th Av at 35 mph BOOM! The two homeballs go red. I'm going so fast that not hitting the homeballs was not an option. So I put the brake on full service and started praying, and getting the words to say to Control just right, all at the same time.
As I hit the first homeball, it changes to yellow over green and the stop arm goes down with about 1 foot to spare. Whew! The second homeball however stays red over red and I'm gonna hit it so the first thing I do is look at the stop arm as I pass it. IT WAS DOWN!!! JESUS RIDES THE TRAINS CAUSE MY PRAYERS WERE ANSWERED!!! And the signal never cleared.
The train finally stops. I catch my breath, stuff my heart back down my throat, and then proceed at "two points" into 5th Av just in case I go into emergency. I stayed charged. When those signals were red, all I could think of was "how am I going to save my job"? Tell ya what, this job isn't for the faint of heart.
Try this one ... I as a conductor at the time, but I still got interviewed as though I had done something wrong 5 cars back ... northtbound D, 10AM weekday, middle of February, just south of Tremont on the concourse. Clear all the way home, pipe on the tracks fails, tripper rises, home ball still green over green. Motor didn't see the happy yellow handle until he was on it ... too late. Blam.
Poor bastard had to explain he hadn't hit the signal over the objections of all supervision that the signal can't possibly be clear if the arm was up, despite nothing being on the railroad ahead of us all the way to 205th. 3 days off anyway though while they checked out our story. Funny though how after signal confirmed we were telling the truth, still took a hearing to have the incident removed from our records.
I had an automatic signal drop on me coming into 179 on the F just before I quit.They were on station ime, I was moving quite slow; I know for a fact it went yellow then red. Like you..except no time off..I had to go thru a hearing to get it cleared, two actually. I wanted to leave with a clean record.[OK..I did have a few mistakes during my career.]
I did have a homeball drop on me while I was in the block approaching it, on a curve southbound into Bergen on the G. I hit it. Luckily ..or maybe they found out what happened,I never heard any more about it. I know for a fact the approach signal was green.
Unfortunately it is the practice of all rail managements to blame the man at the handles (ok-or woman) before any further investigation is done. Sometimes you can't prove yourself right.
Those automatics at 179 AND at Roosevelt on a downtown R dropped on me as well this week. Fortunately I was going slow enough so that I wasn't in danger of hitting them.
The series of automatic signals leading into a station with a homeball and switch at the leaving end are called ABC signals because it's three tower controlled signals that drop if the switch on the leaving end is against you. The TW/O (tower operator) then has to fleet the ABC's for a train to enter a station. A lot of TW/O's forget about the ABC's when they change line-ups so those areas are always trouble spots whenever you enter them.
Say a motorman hits a signal. Presumably maintainers come out to check it. They find no defect. Here's the scary part: the delay has to be charged to somebody. Either the motorman ran the signal or the tower operator dropped the ball. The TA will believe whoever they want to believe and discipline the other.
Ayup ... I *knew* I wasn't alone ... my only problem was being a probie at the time which was equivalent to "guilty" ... still can't figure why they'd put down a conductor for what happened up front, but them was the rules. The signal dept. was RATHER busy at the time too so I knew the ongoing problems up in the Bronx were part of a larger deterioration at the time. I think having an RCI at every other stop was also a salutory sign. If I had a nickel for every time I had to get people out of their seats to reach for a lock bar, I could have bought the review panel. (grin)
I love listening to the whining here from time to time, having worked for the railroad at a time when if you got there AT ALL, it was a good day. Nothing like looking at the tower sheets and seeing half the runs showing ABD before midtown. :)
[You go to work with a positive attitude, be constientious
and try to do a good job ... Mark my words! You are all alone out there!]
I think that's one of the benifits of this site, for you can find a support group whether they be employees, fans or customers. BUT the newbees shouldn't use a ID that can be traced back to them by some of the mean spirited within the TA. Many of us have worked/rode with folks that have gotten thru probation & some of the standard crap from management AND still have a positive attitude. My feeling is that since you only come this way once why not do something you like, because you spend too much time at work to be unhappy all the time.
Mr t__:^)
i'm starting to think that the R-142A is not properly assembled. they feel rushed out to service. everyone is saying that the R-142A on the 6 line are crappy. they have been giving trouble all the time. but for some reason my brother inlaw and some of his friends who work a 239th street yard and works along the 2 line say that they love their R-142's and they never had to take them out of revenue service. however some conductors and motormen, he told me had some difficulty with minor controls with the automated announcement system and they thought it was a piece of crap
Maybe the Bombardier R142's are in fact being built better than their Kawasaki R142A counterparts. But I'm surprised to hear that the R142A's are crappy. I've ridden them lots of times and they seem to run just fine, although they have been having trouble with the automated announcements. Maybe they should just get rid of them.
they have been having trouble with the automated announcements. Maybe they should just get rid of them.
Unfortunately, they can't. There's this little thing called ADA that madates things like this. Here in Baltimore we have 65 buses just sitting that have it, and to get it working somebody has to go out (in a van) and record every important point on every line. Then that recording has to be converted and installed on each of the 65 buses. Also, the subway cars are getting GOH'ed and they will return with the ADA compliant announcement system.
ADA isn't going to go away, so we all will have to adjust.
Does ADA say that they MUST be automated or that announcements must be made?
If its just announcements, then the automation is just so that they are consistant and understandable.
There is a requirement that operators call all the important stops, etc., but traffic and operating conditions tend to interfere, as well as individual attitudes. So, the trend to automate.
In my days as a streetcar operator, I called every transfer point, other required points (hospitals, civic buildings, etc), and other things that were important. That was 38 years ago, and the world got a lot slacker in those 38 years.
i think they are swell too. however i started feeling that it was crappy when after it took longer than the bombardier to finish its 30 day test, the first one to hit service went out of service at the end of the week and the ones i have ridden felt poorly built. the body has many rattling and squeaking and vibrations, harsh squeaking braking, harsh take off and a choppy ride. after riding the Bombardier and the Kawasaki numerous times, i found the bombardier to be better built. no harshness or noises and they were never called out of service. if the new delivery of Kawasaki R-142A keeps it up with the problems, then it would be good that the MTA take away their option order and give it to another manufacturer. i hope the R-143 is not so troublesome.
Westchester may be giving Corona a call requesting those mainline R36's soon if this keeps up.
Heard this reported a couple of weeks ago, but saw nothing of the sort. Wed. morning finally caught it going to work, and then tonight caught in in the evening coming from work. Many signs were left blank. Tonight, 4444was in the consist.
YES A TRANSIT POST!
Nice plate! Mind if I borrow your HTML architecture?
5200
This is set is complete and was spotted travelling south leaving Jackson Av this evening. With the signage set for the 6, the writer believes this set was bound for Westchester Yard. Westchester is filling up with the 142As. I hope they get the bugs worked out of them soon!
-Stef
Are they sending them out in numerical order? How does it work?
I saw 7231-7240 out of service on the 6 back in December, probably testing but they didn't open any doors. There were plenty of TA personel aboard.
WMATAGMOAGH: I rode the R142 #7231-7240 on 01/25/01 Friday & it seem to fine with me. The Train i saw in service is #7221-#7230, #7231-7240, #7241-#7250, #7260-#7270 & #7301-#7310 on #6Peace Out
David Justiniano
I saw this train pulling into the Whitlock Avenue station, as I was driving by on the Sheridian Expressway.
They can be put in any order actually. It doesn't really matter, although it does a lot for appearances...
-Stef
Does PATH really need all of these increases? The bargain $1 fare is why I take PATH to Newark instead of NJ Transit (which is $3.50 round trip). It'll now be $1.50 each way. I commute between the 33rd Street station to Journal Square or Newark quite often. Just imagine if PATH went to a distance-based fare much like Metro does in Washington, DC! Anybody have suggestions on what should be done instead?
I also have a question about the tolls on the Hudson River crossings: Why are there no outbound tolls? I notice this whenever I'm crossing the GW Bridge or going through the Lincoln Tunnel. The DRPA in greater Philadelphia is the same way. They charge inbound tolls on the Ben Franklin and Betsy Ross Bridges. In other words, people are "happy" to pay to get out of the Garden State. Hmmm!
What really pisses me about PATH fares is not so much the new $1.50, but that they don't offer monthly and weekly unlimited ride tickets. I hope that the turnstyles will continue to accept cash fares. Idealy PATH would keep the 1$ fare and squeeze the money out of the bridges and the airports. Ideally the PA would raise costs at the airports so much it would price many people out of flying and them on trains. It would also free up landing space and decrease delays for the remainder who do fly. Just like a free market would dictate, you set prices to match capasity. Not just keep jamming and jamming more planes into the airport.
PATH does have monthly tickets, they're just not unlimited rides. 46 trips for the price of 40. Really, would Joe Commuter ever need more than 46 trips a month?
If they were to ever get rid of the cash acceptance, they should go for a distance-based or at least a 3 zone system. NYC would be one zone, NJ stops except Harrison and Newark would be another zone, and Harrison and Newark would be the third zone. Staying within your zone would be $1, crossing zone lines would add .25. Travel between Harrison and Newark would be free like it is now. Maybe during rush hours tack on an extra quarter to all fares.
But the purpose of PATH is to be a cheap connection. Since you're already paying top dollar for a commuter train ride, an expensive PATH would be an insult to injury. PATH deserves to be subsudized because of its high social returns. Its gets commuters off the road. Its easy to use and inexpensive.
Why isn't there a free Transfer between the NYC subway and Path?
PATH is not part of the MTA. You pay a seperate fare and you get a ride when the MTA strikes. Besides we don't want New Yorkers in our state.
what about people from New Jersey who work somewhere other than midtown manhatten.
I haven't heard of any. Besides, by being unfair to both sides the system is being fair.
>>>Besides we don't want New Yorkers in our state. <<<
And we don't want piney white trash in ours
Political reasons. The PA and MTA don't want to play with each other.
-Hank
Please do not go into a carrer in politics. You'll screw up the system even more.
-Hank
Why do you want to pay $1.50 cash? Quick card rides will be $1.37 (11 rides for $15.00), still cheaper than the subway.
Since I only use PATH once or twice a year $1.50 is a lot cheaper than $15. I want to make the accross-the-platform transfer at Newark and not have to futz with quick cards.
Mike says: "I only use PATH once or twice a year." 'Nuff said.
[Quick card rides will be $1.37 (11 rides for $15.00), still cheaper than the subway. ]
Metrocard, 11 rides for $15.00.
Arti
Still dosen't beat SEPTA. 10 rides for $11.50.
A one way ticket on Metro North from Grand Central to my home station at Brewster North costs $10.50. That's ten-fifty. Sorry, but I can't feel bad for you.
Meanwhile, the Hudson River crossings are supposed to shoot up to at least $6. (PA wanted $7.) The same will go for the Staten Island crossings. How will this affect the East River crossings, if at all? Just imagine if CT ever went back to tolls on I-95 or the Meritt Parkway! Nooooo! (:<)
Road tolls are a good thing. They mean lower gas taxes for residents. Also residents know all the local and back roads so they rarely have to pay the tolls. Toll roads are a great way to shift the tax burden to out of state truck drivers. The real problem is how tolls are skyrocketing in proportion to inflation. Its like every few years they are raising tolls again. God forbid they try to cut costs.
Tolls are NOT 'skyrocketing'. Try comparing the debt load and maintainence costs of the NJTPK to the annual toll revenue.
-Hank
>>>In other words, people are "happy" to pay to get out of the Garden State. <<<
I prefer to think of it this way:
Welcome to New York, admission $6, you're free to go.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>Why are there no outbound tolls? <<<
There used to be but they did away with them when the toll was $1.50 each way, doubled it to $3 inbound to save overhead costs.
Peace,
ANDEE
The point of the inbound tolls is to that in case of a mass exodus from the city (like in case of nuclear attack) you won't have to contend with toll booths getting in your way. Also toll plaza's mean lines and large traffic crowds. Where is the best place to put a giant mass of cars? In the big city or accross the river in the small city.
Please stop banging your head against the wall before writing your posts. If there was such an emergency that required the city be evacuated, the tolls would not be collected, and you'd just drive on through. The real reason for the toll barriers for NY-bound traffic is that statistically, this traffic is higher.
-Hank
Tolls being collected or not, you'd still have to manuver your way through the toll plaza. The basic idea is that you don't want cars trapped in Manhatan waiting in line to pay a toll to get out regardless of circumstance. You're talking about gridlock from hell. You want the huge line of cars waiting where there's space to handle them and that is in NJ.
That idea sounds like using a paper cup to bail out the titanic.
Replace national emergency with rush hour. Its in the city's best interest to get those people out quickly.
no it's not if they stay longer they are more likly to go out to dinner in NYC. if they do that it means more tax money payed by people from Jersey that means less money payed by locals
The real reason for the toll barriers for NY-bound traffic is that statistically, this traffic is higher.
Statistically, they're equal, with a statistically-insignificant bias in favor of the westbound traffic as more and more New Yorkers put the city in their rear view mirror for the last time on their way to new jobs and homes in the South and West. The reason for the toll being collected as you enter New York is as Mike has stated - there's more room for traffic to back up at the toll plaza. Tolls are collected eastbound only at all of the Hudson River crossings below Albany. At the Tappan Zee the bridge itself is used as the backup area for the plaza (located on the Westchester County side); the Bear Mountain doesn't have a backup problem, nor does the Newburgh-Beacon Bridge. The Mid-Hudson Bridge at Poughkeepsie used to have a backup problem at the toll gate when IBM was in its heyday; rush hour traffic is down 40% on that bridge from ten years ago. Because of the torturous approach to the bridge from the Highland side, the toll plaza is over a half mile away and it doesn't have as large a backup area as it needed back then (now it's fine). (As an aside, I'm curious about the rationale for siting that bridge where they did - that Highland approach has always been miserable, and IMHO was made even worse when they rebuilt it thirty years ago. Anybody have an answer?) The Kingston-Rhinecliff bridge used to catch the afternoon commuters, heading back to Dutchess and Columbia Counties after a day at IBM Kingston; the toll booth was never the bottleneck there since the roads on the Rhinecliff side couldn't handle the volume coming off the span anyway. And the bridge at Hudson I'm not well enough acquainted with to comment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gee, I always thought the toll booths on the Hudson River crossings (and at the Deleware Memorial Bridge Crossing on I-95) were set up like that because officials figures people would be more willing to pay a toll to get out of New Jersey than to get into it :-)
...officials figure people would be more willing to pay a toll to get out of New Jersey than to get into it...
There's some merit to that point of view as well... I'm much happier heading home to North Carolina with New Jersey in my rear view mirror than I am seeing the Welcome to the New Jersey Turnpike sign when I have to come back.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I remember reading a while back that there were ads for marijuana and other illegal drugs on the Washington, D.C., Metro. Has anybody ever seen any of these?
- Lyle Goldman
They aren't "ads for marijuana" in the sense of being from dealers who are seling the stuff. They are advocacy ads from NORML and afilliated groups, arguing in favor of legalizing or decriminalizing the use of marijuana, and of moving away from the "war on drugs" in general, a "war" which has dangerously undermined the protections that the Bill of Rights promises to all citizens. I believe WAMATA was reluctant at first to post the ads, but that they were forced to allow them as a result of a lawsuit.
Washington, DC is one of many places around the nation where referendums have been pased to allow marijuana use for medical purposes, but Congress has prevented the results of the referendum from being implemented.
Not to start a rant, but YEE-HAW!!! Good for NORML, stick some ads in unpleasant places to remind people that our good representatiove in Washington have succeeded in siphoning off billions of dollars a year into a phony "drug war". We could have a 10th ave, 2nd ave, and 12th Ave subway for all they spend on driving the prices of drugs up on the black market and instilling a culture of violence in our children.
Was that a rant?
Nah.
PPS
HELL YEAH!
Marijuana is less harmful than alcohol, and less addictive than cigarettes. It's only illegal because it is less established in society.
No, I do not have first hand experience, and personally, I'm not a fan of breathing smoke.
. It's only illegal because it is less established in society.
William Randolph Hearst bought a redwood forest 85 or 90 years ago when a process for making newsprint out of softwood was developed. Previously it was made from hemp. When publishers refrained from switching to wood-based paper (presumably for economic reasons), Hearst initiated the successful disinformation campaign that led to the banning of hemp farming.
Two international studies were published in 1999 comparing pot, alcohol and tobacco. Both ranked them in that order with respect to health issues (disregarding injuries caused by drunkenness), with marijuana most benign and tobacco most dangerous.
History has shown that alcohol, tobacco and pot can't be banned. Consider what Prohobition did for organized crime and the current drug laws have done for the illicit drug business.
People who drink are more likely to harm others driving or becoming violent. People who smoke weed don't want to do anything but sit and chill and have a huge grin on their face (speaking from first hand experince :-D).
I haven't smoked up in 2 or 3 years, but you're making it sound tempting! Oh, on the subway, of course.
...Congress has prevented the results of the referendum from being implemented.
Government of the people, by the people, and for the people... Gotta love it.
Of course, states and municipalities could always follow the example of Ann Arbor, Michigan and keep marijuana techincally illegal, but make it a misdemeanor punishable by a five-dollar fine.
I've tried pot a couple times myself, but I didn't exhale.
-- David
Chicago, IL
As well as Al Gore, George Bush, Bill Clinton (although he didn't inhale), Bill Bradley, Tom Brokaw, 85% of current high school students (and that takes Utah into consideration) and the majority of all Americans. It really puzzles me why pot is still illegal.
Because the mainstream of American Society consists of a bunch of apathetic, apolitical zombies.
Sometimes I long for the return to the 60s, where the spirit of protest was everywhere, and people actually cared. Maybe a nice conservative movement can cause a heavy liberal movement to spark up in reaction to it.
GO JOHN ASHCRAPT!
Here's hoping that the Constitution isn't amended while America is in the right lane.
In celebration of this thread's title I think I'll go and light up a serious 'fatty'...;-)
Anyone willing to catch an e-buzz??
BMTman
In the 1800's pro-slavery speakers turned their audiences' brains off with base prejudice, namely racism. Prohibition speakers do pretty much the same thing today.
Newt Gingrich is another notable. I seriously doubt most Americans have smoked it, even in our troubled younger generation it's probably only about 40%.
Legal pot could plausibly mean more money for transit.
HASH OUT!
even in our troubled younger generation it's probably only about 40%.
Troubled younger generation? You didn't think I'd let you get away with that, did you?
T'was tongue in cheek! I'm not exactly old myself.
Were they there when Marion Berry was mayor of DC???
Were they there when Marion Barry was mayor of DC???
No, those were the cocaine and heroin ads :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LOL. No.
You definately got my attention there. Now that you have it...
I believe the ad was (if it still isn't) at McPherson Square and I have not gone there in a while. I haven't really followed issue that closely. Sorry.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
"I believe the ad was (if it still isn't) at McPherson Square"
McPherson Square is the closest station to the White House. Curiouser and curiouser. :^)
Seriously though, compared to the ads you'd see on other transit systems, Metro has a lot of political ads (in several stations the last time I was in DC, I saw an ad by an Indian tribe against pumping oil in the Arctic nature reserve) and ads aimed at government purchasing agents (ads by McDonnell Douglas for bombing airplanes!).
Here's the article from a few weeks ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd like some fedback on my new web site that is now almst compleate
Bostonsubway
Nice layout. It's a very good looking site.
This is a web site I found about thing about the T that make no sence
MBTA Gallery of the Absurd
Yes I know.
Doesn't this guy know that busses have to pull to the curb to allow cars to pass?
he dosn't seem to know much about transit at all
LOL, that was great. Its sorta like forgotten-ny.com in the "Why is this here?" sence. I loved those 3 #66 busses that were all in a row. That was too funny.
He has a few good points.
The fare structure on the T could be vastly improved and simplified.
There are lots of temporary (read hand drawn or made with tape) signs, but that is mainly due to the big dig upheavals
On the trackless trolleys, I think the pay exit outbound is a good idea, but there are no signs posted telling you this, so I assumed that you pay enter like everywhere else.
I think the website author missed the boat on the 73 through-routing to North Cambridge. To his credit, the destination signs could read "North Cambridge via Harvard" without a route number to make things more clear. I also noticed that a very high percentage of the TTs left their outbound destination signs up when heading inbound. I suspect that there are not many occasional riders or tourists up there so it doesn't matter.
I do agree with the "D Government Center" exposures on the B. Why can't they order "B Government Center" signs? The D is supposed to go to Lechmere anyway.
And just to add a couple more things to the list:
It costs 0.75 to take the 39 bus from Huntington or South Huntington to Northeastern, but 1.00 to take a trolley. Huh?
At Braintree, you cannot buy the commuter rail tickets on the commuter rail platform, but have to walk down to get them from the collector in the subway station. You can buy visitor passes at Braintree, but not from the collector, but from the guy at the coffe shop. In other words if you want to buy for commuter rail, you have to buy from the subway guy, but if you want to buy a subway pass you have to go to the coffee place. To make this circle complete, they should collect the money for the coffee place on board the commuter trains.
Dand124,
He may not be a transit expert, but he has some idea on what he is talking about. For someone who is glad the T is around even though it can really p*ss me off sometimes, I can take heart when on "the mbta gallery of the absurd." -Nick
Makes plenty of sense. It is all my complaints about the T and all the complaints I will devise once I get more chances to ride it. This guy is a genius.
The site is quite amusing, and a lot of his complaints are valid. At least he sees the abnormalities in the system with humor, instead of frustration and rage like most average commuters. He's been to Seashore, too!
MBTA is still running AM Generals? Cool.
last night, i started a thread on elevators that really brought back a lot of my memories and fascination for elevators... dand124 at one point suggested starting elevatortalk... i mentioned that there is a rather quiet message board that is part of the elevator world website, which i put up a link for...
after hearing david cole's interest in elevators, pork's interest in the unusual, jeff h's suggestion to view the bowlmor lanes building elevator, and dand124's suggestion, i was flooded with memories of my earlier elevator riding days...
so i am happy to announce that i founded a club on yahoo called elevatortalk, as a place where we can pursue our interests in elevators and escalators...
feel free to join in... bring your memories, stories, jokes, questions, pictures, and history....
here's a link to the club
elevatortalk
I get a kick out of riding in elevators, too. OTOH, thinking about the shaft gives me the creeps.
OK, lets begin with my favorites...upper Broadway on the IRT. First favorites were car 1 and car 2 on the south side of the station that had a kiosk entrance at 181st. They were the oldest.about 1905.
The newer entrance in the arcade side (maybe from the teens) there were cars 3,4,5 and 6.. with 3 and 4 being the newest Similar elevator were at 168 and 191. All by Otis, of course.
See, push a railfan far enough and other secrets come out, even to passively liking..oh no...busses. NUF said!! ha ha
"OK, lets begin with my favorites...upper Broadway on the IRT. First favorites were car 1 and car 2 on the south side of the station that had a kiosk entrance at 181st. They were the oldest.about 1905."
does anyone know if these cars are still in original 1905 condition???
No, they recently replaced these cars. IIRC, within the last 5 years.
Peace,
ANDEE
I suspect if the 1905 elevators at the original entrance to 181 st. haven't been removed and scrapped that they are still there intact. The entrance used to be separate..SE corner, had a kiosk. Later theybuilt a passage from the arcade, NE corner underground so you could come up on either side of the street but the original elevators were no longer used, nor replaced. The access to them being closed over.
Perhaps that would be a nice addenda to the IRT centennial.One of the original elevators back in service. Maybe my memory fails me but I can't remember them replacing the original cars at the SE corner entrance. They just eliminated them entirely.
i came across something in my search about elevators that might be of interest to electric traction fans... it is a description of operating two elevators in the same shaft, which interestingly was worked on by frank sprague, the father of multiple unit operation in electric traction...
the article explains how the dual car system uses a block signal system similar to what is used in the subways... i thought it might be of interest to people here...
two elevators in one shaft
Thanks, Heypaul, that was fascinating.
I see how they would avoid conflict with a "zone" system like the one used on the commuter roads, but, aside from safety issues, I wonder how they deal with what seems to me a common scenario:
Starting off makes sense, an "upper" car takes off and serves floors 10 to 20, making room for a "lower" car to service 2 to 10.
But what happens coming down? People will want to get on/off at random floors with random loading times. If there is a light load on the upper floors, the upper car could be poised on the 11th floor waiting to go down while the lower car is still loading/unloading people on the 6th or 7th floor or might still be heading up.
That could negate the experience of the upper car "express" ride, at least in the downward direction.
I have an idea to make elevators like a real vertical subway. Have four shafts, two up and two down. The elevators would go up and then cross over to the down shaft at the top and go down. At the bottom, they would go back to the up shaft. You would have a continous circuit of elevators. There can also be express/local service. The express shafts would stop at every ten floors, and the local ones would stop at every floor. People would first take an express, then transfer to a local to complete their journey. The express would have cars two stops between each other. The locals would have many more cars than the express, they would be maybe 5 floors apart from each other. Maybe you could have peak and off peak services, taking cars out of serivce when there's not much traffic.
A building could reclaim a lot of real estate space, since the number of shafts would be lower.
A few weeks back, David Cole suggested a Chicago SubTalk Field Trip sometime this summer. David suggested a 3- or 4-day trip, so participants could fully explore the L and commuter railroads. I chimed in that it should include a side trip to the Illinois Railway Museum.
I propose the following weekends:
1)June 23-24 – “Chicago Weekend.” The 43rd anniversary of the last day of Chicago streetcar operations. Electric cars, interurbans, and diesels operate.
2)July 4 (Wednesday) – the Trolley Pageant. Largest display of antique trolleys in the Midwest. Steam, diesel and electric cars operate.
3)July 21-22 – “Diesel Days.” Operations of various engines from the museum’s diesel collection. No steam but electric cars also operate.
4)August 5 (Sunday) – Vintage Transport Extravaganza. “Enter a transportation time warp through the display of antique autos, trucks, fire engines, tractors, motorcycles, and buses.” Steam, electric and diesel trains operate. Electric trolley bus also operates.
5)September 1,2 & 3. Railfan Weekend. If it’s runnable, it runs. Steam, diesel, electric cars and electric buses operate.
July 4 would be a great time to visit (I’ve attended the last 8 trolley parades) but being in the middle of the week could be a problem. OTOH, we could arrive the preceding Saturday or Sunday, spend the next few days exploring the L and commuter railroads, then Wednesday at the museum and head home that evening.
For more information about the museum (check out the equipment and motive power roster), point your browser to www.irm.org. I believe admission is free if you have a membership card to another museum, e.g., Steamtown, Branford or Seashore. If not, and we get a large enough crowd, group rates are available.
Do not plan to railfan at IRM on the weekends when Thomas The Tank Engine visits...like Mickey D, millions and millions and millions of kids, parents, and strollers. Double check dates.
David Harrison
The dates I suggested are not the Thomas weekend. That's August 18/19 and 25/26.
Thanks for the input Dave, I've added a copy to my file.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for the information.
I'd be a little hesitant about scheduling a trip on a holiday such as July 4th, since many people who would otherwise make the field trip would most likely be spending time with family or friends. Also, with Taste of Chicago and the Grant Park fireworks going on, getting a hotel room in downtown might be next to impossible. (However, I may be interested in joining you at IRM for the Trolley Parade, and any other Chicago-area SubTalkers would be welcome to attend as well. We could consider it sort of a "warm-up" for the real field trip.)
Railfan Weekend on September 1-3 certainly sounds interesting, however... Maybe we could make that our tentative field trip weekend?
Suggestions? Comments? I'll send an e-mail out to the mailing list this evening discussing these ideas and soliciting feedback.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I can't do any dates in June and later in July is better for me.
I too am leary of July 4th as most hotels/motel will be charging Rack Rates.
thanks to john blair, who alerted me to this story that i missed...
it's a story about how the demolition of 140 broadway in nyc, almost caused a new intermodal transfer point between horizontal and vertical transport...
bombs away
rolland's stories are great... they are from people who worked the job, and witnessed some scary things....
Page 41 of the January 30 issue of the Village Voice has an article of great interest to Subtalkers. It is a well written article taking a full page. You should find it quite informative.
Is this previously posted article what you are referring to?
For all my mixed feelings about these cars, the digital side signs are one aspect I'm not ambivalent about--I hate them! Why?
--They're hard to read from an angle. From some angles, the type is practically invisible.
--They're slightly faint. Dark grey on yellow dosen't exactly stand out.
--The type is too small, especially for the route letter. Hard to read from a distance
--They don't display all route information at once.
--No color! That is, unless we want to change the map so that the A, E, F, G and Rock Park S are the same yellow as the N and R--actually more of a puke yellow.
Altogether they make the signs hard to read in less than favorable conditions, the sort that are familiar in the NYC subway.
I can't tell you how many times I've been in a Manhattan-bound F at Queens Plaza, indefinitely held at the station and packed to the gills. I'm trying to look accross the platform to see whether that's a G or R accross the platform. Between the crowds in the train and the crowds on the platform, I barely get a glace of the side sign. At a quick glance, you can't tell a G or R apart--or an E from an F, or a Far Rockaway A from a Lefferts A from a Rock Park A. That's bad. Part of the reason we have the letters and numbers in color-coded circles is so we can tell them apart at a quick glance. These signs make the system nearly useless when it's needed the most.
:-) Andrew
Oh! But I might as well say that the digital signs on the 142s are slight improvements. BUT there's still no color. How will you tell a 2 from a 5?
:-) Andrew
I believe the newer LED signs on the 142s are a HUGE improvement...the clarity is so much better. As for color, yes it would help...just like they have diff colors on the inside LED display. But remember, passengers need to know how to read the #'s anyways, cuz both the #2 and #3 are red circles. -Nick
Once you are on the west side, who cares where the train is going?
If you work on 7 Ave and live on Livonia Ave, you might care.
This is true, Andrew...the old type of LED sign on these cars can be confusing...not to mention the dot matrix headsigns on the R-38s. -Nick
Yeah. Those stink too, and both the R32s and R38s are blessed with 'em. But at least they have side rollsigns, even if they're small. I'd argue that side signs are more important.
:-) Andrew
"I'd argue that side signs are more important"
I would say that this is true, but I do like the headsigns with bright colors....so you can know well before the trian enters the station whether its an E or F (for example), and maybe even move out of the way for other straphangers if it is not your train. -Nick
Well I happen to like the signs but also see their flaws. They are hard to read from a distance, and now that R46's also run on the E it makes it harder to tell whether that is an E or an F. What would be nice is if the TA got colored LED signs, to match the colors of the lines. Then it would be much easier.
AH, but the TA looks at dollars and cents! When they are on the E and at nite the signs have to be changed to Whitehall St. labor savings! And the signs are correct! And on the F, electronically the trains to Kings Hwy or Stillwell don't have to be changed by platform conductors! Same thing with those R44;'s at 207 ST.
Personally Bill, I don't have a problem with the digital signs. True sometimes you'll get four different side signs out of eight cars, but on the whole, they are much more convenient to change than a traditional roll sign. Anyone who's ever had to change an R42 from J or M to an L knows exactly what I mean.
Andrew - I agree with all but have to add one: they're all-too-often wrong :). One plus on the E/F is that I find out in advance if it'll be running local, not that it makes much difference.
If the R-44/R-46 side signs are incorrect, most often it is an operational error. Occassionally, there is a connunications error.
Agreed, but one wonders how difficult it is to change a digital sign (unless it's a matter of forgetting the code). I can see wrong roll signs as being more commonplace, since they're such a pain to change (example: the first week the Es were running on the R nights, all the R-32 Es had Whitehall St as their south terminal during morning rush hour).
Does anybody know anything about a future "T" Silver Line? A few signs hinting of this were posted at the South Station Red Line stop. ("Please pardon the construction. Future Silver Line coming soon.) What would its' route be?
The silver line is actually two different projects/subways that will someday be connected. The silver line will use dual mode and CNG buses not light rail as many wish. One part of the line will go from south station to world trade center underground and to the Airport via the Ted Williams tunnel. The other part will use 60 articulated CNG buses and is the T's idea of Orange line replacement service. It will run From New England Med. center to Duddly most of it in buss only lanes. The third part will run through the old trimount street subway tunnel (how they plan on fitting buses in there I don't know because the other part of the subway can barley handle modern light rail). And the Boylston to south station connecor. The N. E. Med. center to south station part will be finished sometime after the second avenue subway.
You know, I just picked up a book on the Big Dig in Barnes and Noble, which also mentions the Silver Line. I'll see what info on it I can find.
-Hank
The MBTA Web site will be pleased to tell you all about what is in part their sorry excuse for a real replacement for the old Orange Line el.
Dave,
I was wondering....have you written the letter to the museum regarding our ideas for the centennial celebration? I'll be happy to give you my info when needed. -Nick
you mean it's not too late??
No, I haven't, but I will try to draft one early this week and post it for further comment.
-Dave
"No, I haven't, but I will try to draft one early this week and post it for further comment."
Sounds like a good plan...I'll be on the lookout for it :-) -Nick
OK. I know that at least the R46 is a good, dependable train, despite the unpredictable door-chimes. I should consider myself lucky to have them as an F rider, even if we're also blessed with Queens Blvd. hell.
But many seem to consider the R44's and R46's to be the best looking cars in the system, and I have to say I don't get it, at least not since the GOH.
Certainly I find the exterior to be ugly in the extreme. There just isn't much style. Part of the problem might be the size. A 75-footer kind of inherently looks bulky, at least with the standard MTA shape. But at least pre-GOH they had the blue stripe to break them up. But now they look like giant, grey breadboxes.
I've already started a thread about the yellow digital side signs. But here I should add that they're made worse by the fact that only the "A" end has the front or rear rollsign, so in a group of four there's almost nothing but the digital yellow and black to tell what line the train's running on.
I will concede, however, that the interior isn't bad. It is mellow and even comforting, though I would hesitate to call it attractive. Still, all the 75-footers have a bizzare decision in seating arrangements. I like sitting forward, but when such a seat is right next to one facing to the side, it's a pretty cramped situation.
The R68's seem to be inferior for technical reasons, but I'd give them a very slight edge in the looks department. The silver interior doesn't do much for them, but the shinier exterior makes the difference between a grey breadbox and a silver one. And the rollsigns make a big difference. Still, I'd say just about any IRT or 60-footer has the 44s, 46s and 68s beat--even the slant R40.
Just an opinion.
:-) Andrew
I agree. The R68's outward appearance looks better than the R44/46's, but inside, I like the R44/46's better. The R68's are all scratched up, everywhere.
The R68's and R68A's exterior look very different. I think the R68As look better due to the shiny metal borders instead of the think rubber ones on the R68A. But the side is more smoother on the R68As. If you ever see 2882, you'll know what I mean. They have R68A windows on one side. Just doesn't look right.
2882 was out of service for an extended period of time. I do not know why, but all I know it was cannibalized in CIYD and only put back together when the R68's got linked. So it probably got put back together with parts pulled from newly linked cars and spare parts bought from vendors which could be interchangable between R68 and R68A models.
For some reason the R62's looked alot better than the R68's, especially on the inside.
What difference??? Basically just the front/rear seats and R68 being a bit wider! Other differences are more subtle...
IMHO, for some reason, the R62 is actually a very attractive car, even though the shape is not too different from the R68. Maybe it's the much smaller size. The 62's are not at all bulky, and the windows are naturally larger in relation to the car body. Also, the metal railings between cars kind of looks cool. So the 62's are actually right near the top of my list. Can't wait to see them on the 7!
I admit there is a slightly irrational bias there, though. Back in the 1980's, I was gaga for an older girl at Barnard (I was still in high school!), where of course the 1 went.
Even so, they are nice cars.
;-D Andrew
After returning from their GOH the 44's and 46's should have been outfitted with their blue-stripe paint job. It adds something to the overall attraction of the cars.
On the other hand, the R-42's look good w/or w/o the blue stripe probably because of their ribbing design on the lower half of the car sides.
BMTman
The r/44 is a nice all around car. Its tops in seating. More so then the r/46. It appears as if more room was given over to the T/O at the expense of seating. I wishmore "B" cars were made, witha few yard donkeys to make up for the missing cabs. The 'Carbon steel belt was a result of the R/42s paint peeling off the stainless steel. Paint adheres better to carbon steel. But that crap rust, so its a bit of an eyesore. I wonder what colors might look more appealing. Please though, no more of the Cities colors of Blue and Orange. Perhaps White or a checker board effect of black and white.
Iliked the SOAC cars seating in both coach and first class. This sites photos are nice for comparisons sake. I don't recall if they had a stainless of carbon belt for the striping.
avid Soac fan
I was just reading a thread on regen braking on R142s. RIB asked whether the AC to DC to AC power system used on Acela shows that regen on the subway can backfeed into the power company grid. (The answer was no.) That set me to wondering what kind of brakes Acela and other Amtrak trains use on the NEC. Does anyone here know? Do any passenger trains use regen to supplement HEP while the train is braking?
Hello all,
I have just been sent a letter by the NYCTA telling me I am being considered for a probable permanent appointment as a Train Operator (Yard). I am going for the pre-interview and medical examination next week.
Can anyone please fill me in on a couple of things:
1. Besides the 207th Street yard in Manhattan, what other yards might they assign me to?
2. Will I always be in the same yard every day/week?
3. Can they assign me to 2 different yards within the same day?
4. Will I be assigned to an extra list or be a regular?
5. If I am assigned to the extra list, how does it work? e.g., will they tell me my days off in advance each week, and will I have the same days off every week?
6. As Train Operator, will I have to "cut" cars myself or will I only be responsible to operate the train while another employee makes cuts, etc.?
7. What exactly will my duties entail?
8. Can I get bumped out of yard service by a senior employee?
9. From this point on, approximately how much time is there until I am actually hired, because I am on vacation for a few weeks from my present job and would like to go away, but I don't want to miss anything if the NYCTA calls me?
Any help will be greatly appreciated
Being hired as a yard train operator is a new one on me! It just may be your rate of pay to start, but new hires do get "broken-in" in the yards, you break in for the road right after that. You work extra extra and you may or may not work in a yard, but have no picked job at all. By orders of a certain RTO sup't, no probationary motormen are allowed to move trains in Fresh Pond, Canarsie or ENY yards. He is worried because of possible switch run thru's because of the hand throw switches in those yards. All of a sudden, after you are a probie, they allow you in there, but you had no practice! Disclaimer: I don't make the rules, I am only reporting!
As I understand it the TA has decided that the "OC" T/O's are going to spend the first year in the yards (going back to how it used to be)
Well, I guess the TA is going back to an old idea because the reason why they put the new guys on the road right away for the last few years was because of screw-ups done in the yards: switch run thru's, collisions with barn doors because they had a habit of moving cars in and out before the barn door was completely open, etc. With more seasoned guys working in the yards, the frequency of these kinds of incidents decreased.
Forgot to ask the typical training time for yard svce.
Thanks,
nyhal
Many of the idiots who go around grade croosing gates while trains are approaching are under the impression that if they get injured, the railroad has to compensate them. How about getting a law passed that states that if you purposely go around a crossing gate that is actively giving a warning about an approaching train and you sustain injury because of what you did, you get no compensation, and can be held liable for any and all damages incurred as a result of your actions. That should put a stop to some of these clowns, by hitting them in the wallet, where it really hurts.
Unfortunitly most people who dodge crossing gates are judgement proof.
If you mean like those who missed that school bus every day and every way that they could, you are right.
I mean you can't sue poor people.
This is true, but those who expect a winfall because of situations that they created will be in for a rude awakening if the laws are changed.
>>> those who expect a winfall because of situations that they created will be in for a rude
awakening if the laws are changed <<<
Doc;
What particular law are you suggesting should be changed? There is no jurisdiction which now permits the recovery of damages unless you can show the other party was at fault.
Tom
Right. The courts are no less subject to error than any other human endeavor. The law is already as was suggested. A new law that merely restates the current law won't do anything but fool a few rubes into thinking that their politicians are doing something.
Having said that, there are ways in which people who drive around lowered gates could be further detered from suing. I'm not sure any of them is a good idea. You could, for example, make railroads totally immune to suit simply because they are railroads. I think we would agree that that goes to far. As another example, you could adopt a statute that says that a railroad has no duty to exercise any level of care beyond that imposed by FRA regulations. Maybe. It's at least worth some discussion. Who would you prefer to decide the required level of care, a federal bureaucrat or a local judge and jury?
"Who would you prefer to decide the required level of care, a federal bureaucrat or a local judge and jury?"
Though the usual answer to that rhetorical question the other times I've seen it* is the judge and jury, I'd say the FRA. The railroad is a distant for-profit corporation ("no soul to damn, no body to kick") while the person struck by the train is a fellow townsperson who can easily be spun as a sympathetic character.
And in reality, they often are. Many people who go around crossing gates are NOT otherwise lunatic drivers or devil-may-care risk-takers. Housewives and sober (in both senses of the word) businessmen go around gates as well as punks and drunks. For some reason, there are a fair number of people who wouldn't dream of running a red traffic light for fear of a collision but who go around crossing gates if they think they're going to be delayed too long and if the train isn't too close. Not to justify what gate-runners do, but the problem won't be fixed so long as the common perception of a gate-runner is a punk hell-raiser in a junk car who doesn't obey the laws of God or man generally.
*Typically, when someone uses the word "bureaucrat" they are practically hanging a neon sign on that choice that they think it's the wrong one. Bureaucrat is almost never used as a neutral term, and never as a compliment.
Then making compliance with FRA regs a complete defense may be the answer. I expect that on a motion for summary judgment, a railroad could show compliance with FRA regs (if, in fact, it complied) a lot more easily than it could show that it acted so carefully that a judge would rule, applying common law standards, that there had been no negligence as a matter of law.
Summary judgment for the defendant -- no trial -- no jury.
Maybe I am making a mistake by relating my experience with incarcerated individuals ( jailbirds, if you will ) who believe that if any harm comes to them, even if they caused it, the system must pay. Many frivolous lawsuits are generated this way. Some have sued because they did not like the kind of towels they got, or because they got melted ice cream! The fact id that there are those who feel that others should pay for their mistakes, no matter if they caused the problem, so that is why some kind of protection should be in the laws so that these vultures would not find the pickings so easy.
Maybe I am making a mistake by relating my experience with incarcerated individuals ( jailbirds, if you will ) who believe that if any harm comes to them, even if they caused it, the system must pay. Many frivolous lawsuits are generated this way. Some have sued because they did not like the kind of towels they got, or because they got melted ice cream! The fact is that there are those who feel that others should pay for their mistakes, no matter if they caused the problem, so that is why some kind of protection should be in the laws so that these vultures would not find the pickings so easy.
>>> Maybe I am making a mistake by relating my experience with incarcerated individuals <<<
Obviously you do not have a representative sample of the general population. You are dealing with people who want to beat the system rather than live by its rules. These are also people with a lot of time on their hands with no downside to filing a lawsuit. Many frivolous lawsuits come from jails. What percentage of them are successful? I would guess that it is a minuscule number.
Tom
But they are one royal pain. You are right about one thing - those who stat up these kinds of lawsuits have nothing but time on their hands to make mischief.
But they are one royal pain. You are right about one thing - those who start up these kinds of lawsuits have nothing but time on their hands to make mischief.
The incidence of death or serious injury in grade crossing accidents is so high I don't think anyone goes around the gates figuring they'll be indemnified.
Having waited at numerous crossings I believe the issue is impatience, poor judgment and a mistaken belief that no train is really coming.
I can remember when railroad crossings were protected by a simple crossbuck that read STOP...LOOK...LISTEN!
Motorists seemed to be more cautious in those days!
You are correct on that, but there are those who believe, and I have seen them, that they can get money fro situations that they cause. They just do not make the connection between right and wrong.
If I understand the law correctly, when the railroad crossing gates, etc, are activated or when a train sounds its horn approaching, the railroad crossing (including the road) is officially railroad property.
Thus, technically, those hit by trains are guilty of trespass on private railroad property. I think the railroad needs to pick out a promising case (driver survives, has money to pay judgement, is a "common" person most folks will relate to) and sue him for as much as possible. At the very least, they should sue for damage to the locomotive and track, investigation costs, lost revenue from an out-of-service track, "emotional damages" and time off pay to the engineer, etc, etc.
It should be used as PR stunt to show people that A)running a crossing is illegal and dangerous, B)the railroad is NOT at fault in most of these incidents and C)it costs everyone a lot of money when there is a RR/car accident.
It may seem heartless, but it sure would drive the point home. It would basically be a free PR campaign because you KNOW the news media will pick up the story and do intensive coverage.
Now, come on, corporate railroad lawyers... get some guts and fight back!
--Brandon W. Bostian
No, that would never work!! if the threat of near-certain death and dismemberment is not enough to scare people away from grade-crossing running, then is the added idea of forking over a few extra dollars going to help deter? NO. OBTW, juries are generally more sympathetic to the defendant guy in the wheelchair then they are to the mean old huge infinitely rich transit bureacracy plaintiff, and even in rare cases where the TA would prevail, what good is a worthless paper judgement against the driver in 5, 6, or 7 figures if the grade runner simply doesn't have enough money to satisfy the judgement? Absolutely none, thats what!!! As for prosecuting for criminal tresspass, most would say that to have been hit and nearly killed is punishment enough. The libility of villainizing the MTA would far outweigh any benefit of deterrence. The #1 rule of civil actions, as nearly any lawyer will tell you, is to sue the one with the deep pockets. 99.9% of all motorists have no real riches stashed away somewhere, so the idea of suing them becomes pointless.
What we need to do is simply design and implement a gate that cannot be simply driven around or walked/driven under. Peace, Thomas
What has worked well to sharply curb highway crossing violations
by motorists, according to an article last year in Railway Age,
is the use of cameras to capture license plate numbers combined
with aggressive enforcement and community education. Another
successful method has been to install barriers in the middle of
the roadway approaching the crossing to prevent driving around.
Outstanding ideas, lets hurry up and make them law in NY!!! peace.
>>> It would basically be a free PR campaign because you KNOW the news media will pick up the story and do intensive coverage. <<<
You must be kidding of course. There certainly would be plenty of press coverage, but it is doubtful that any of it would be favorable to the railroad. Headlines such as "Railroad puts man in wheelchair for life, then sues him" would not get the railroad's PR people any industry awards.
Tom
You're right of course, but usually these collisions are the motorists' fault whether by negligence, impatience, or whatever. There is no way a freight train or most intercity passenger trains can stop in time, and there's no such thing as a tie.
I enjoyed your "surviving the power shortage" thoughts by the way!
I still think that some of these boneheads should get their just desserts in a courtroom and shown to be the idiots that they are. The risks some people take doing what they do is really crazy.
I'm willing to bet that its done all the time. I would think that with all the suits brought against the railroads for grade crossing accidents they brought counter suits against the plaintiffs. I would be surprised if they didn't. Thats business procedure.
Brandon, I like your style!
Hey, I got a scan of a flyer for the ALP-46. A quick overview first:
Starting TE:71,000 lbs
Continuous TE:43,000 lbs
Braking TE:34,000 lbs
Axle load: 49,000 lbs
Weight: 198,000 lbs
Length - 64ft
GTO, liquid cooled inverters, AC traction. 7,108hp / 5.3 MW
It's longer than an ALP-44, much higher TE (51,000lbs for ALP-44).
It's lighter too.
It's based off an existing German locomotive, and is made by ADtranz. Expected delivery is late 2001. FRA Tier I and all that good stuff.
The TE is close to an HHP-8's, and I think the GG-1's too. The axle loading is beautifully low. The HEP is higher capacity.
It'll be interesting to see how these units stack up to the HHP-8 and AEM-7AC. With the comming electrification of caltrain, and the MBTA looking at buying motors for the first time (I believe they want 6), this is an interesting time for heavy electrification in ther US - I don't think there's been a choice in power (ALP-46 Vs HHP-8) in the US for years. I'd love to see someone do a "shootout" between the two, and see which one truely IS better in terms of performance.
I've heard the HHP-8s have had problems, and the only HHP-8 pulled train I was on was S-L-O-W. The AEM-7ACs seem to be fast though.
It'd be interesting to see if Amtrak decides to make another motor purchase, what they'll get.
I've got a link to the flyer at http://uhavax.hartford.edu/~nasadowsk/newpix/ALP-46FLYER.JPG
Oh yeah, and my freshly painted Harley at: http://uhavax.hartford.edu/~nasadowsk/newpix/hotp/Bike1.jpg :)
Wow!! Very impressive. I'm glad that NJT is using an existing locomotive design for the ALP-46. Is the HHP-8 based on an existing design, or was it created just for Amtrak?
Amtrak's HHP-8 is based on France's SNCF class BB36000 locomotive. Here's a link to it on
Those sure are nice locos. Hope they do well on NJT. Maybe M-N, MBTA and SEPTA will use them too.
Thanks for the scan Phil, I enjoyed the preview very much !
Mr t__:^)
If it's made by Adtranz, then don't expect a life expectency of the locomotive over 5 years because anything built by Adtranz is crap.
Not so. NJT's ALP-44M's are made by Adtranz. So are the Flexliner DMU and the RegioShuttle diesel LRV. However, these are off-the-shelf products. Maybe Adtranz's problems lie with building custom-made products.
I rode an #6 R142 at approximately 3:53 this afternoon, and to tell you the truth it was great! It was my first time getting on the train after being missing the train about 3 times today. Let me explain in Chronological order:
12pm around there: Spotted an R142 on the uptown track at Grand Central. By the time I got to the uptown track the train was already revving up.
2pm around there: Door closed right in my face as I was getting ready to go inside the R142.
3:20pm: R142 seen at 14th st on the uptown track. Last car was #7240.
Somehow the R142 continues to play its little games with me.
My grandfather told me, "Lets wait until it comes back around."
I said, "but that'll take forever!"
well it took about 30 minutes until it showed up... That's when I heard the traction motor noise....The SUPER BRIGHT red LED light reflecting the wall... The R142 had returned! This time car #7240 was the first car.
3:44pm: At 96th street, the first car had missed the station and the Train Operator had to open the doors with his key. Then he asked the Conductor if she could close the doors. She couldn't. Out comes the TO again, closing all 27 right doors. He goes back in the car. He starts to say, "these new trains....."
At 125th St I leave the station.
I moved towards the window where the TO was pushing the button to go local. I said "These new trains are hard to get used to..."
He says "I know."
I Left to catch a 4 on the opposite track.
"3:44pm: At 96th street, the first car had missed the station and the Train Operator had to open the doors with his key"
I WAS ON THAT TRAIN TODAY !!
I was in the 8th or 9th car. Talk about small world !
Bill "Newkirk"
I rode an #6 R142 at approximately 3:53 this afternoon, and to tell you the truth it was great! It was my first time getting on the train after being missing the train about 3 times today. Let me explain in Chronological order:
12pm around there: Spotted an R142 on the uptown track at Grand Central. By the time I got to the uptown track the train was already revving up.
2pm around there: Door closed right in my face as I was getting ready to go inside the R142.
3:20pm: R142 seen at 14th st on the uptown track. Last car was #7240.
Somehow the R142 continues to play its little games with me.
My grandfather told me, "Lets wait until it comes back around."
I said, "but that'll take forever!"
well it took about 30 minutes until it showed up... That's when I heard the traction motor noise....The SUPER BRIGHT red LED light reflecting the wall... The R142 had returned! This time car #7240 was the first car.
3:44pm: At 96th street, the first car had missed the station and the Train Operator had to open the doors with his key. Then he asked the Conductor if she could close the doors. She couldn't. Out comes the TO again, closing all 27 right doors. He goes back in the car. He starts to say, "these new trains....."
At 125th St I leave the station.
I moved towards the window where the TO was pushing the button to go local. I said "These new trains are hard to get used to..."
He says "I know."
I Left to catch a 4 on the opposite track.
It sounds like you had an exciting day riding the new R-142 subway cars.
BMTJeff
If they're THIS hard to catch now..
.. just imagine them 5 years from now..
..they'll be UNHEARD of!
Friend of Rusty R.
You guys are stubborn. Most new cars have problems. Even Redbirds when they came out had problems. You don't admit the flaws of the Redbirds of TODAY (i.e. door sensors, rusty exterior, *DiRtY* interior along window ledges, storm doors opening on sharp turns, ... etc.) given they had 40+ years of service but instead being thick-headed about your views on the R142/A. Yes the R142A have problems, but don't bet your horses or your brains that what you said will happen in 5 years.
what problems did the redbirds have when they were brand new ?? i would like to know from somebody who knows this stuff well!!
Doors, hoses and leaky windows ... the usual stuff of the vintage ...
I seem to remember leaky windows..
..but never was there Redbird Whine.
You'd hear it all the time! "When do we get to 96th street?" "Why is the train so slow today?" "Why aren't we moving?" "Waaaaaaaaaaah."
See? Now you remember, don'tcha?
7240 was the first R142A I saw. It was testing, never rode it.
Those things are ugly though, without saying.
I don't like their appearance either.
From an esthetic point of view, the front end is a disaster. I can't figure out why they put the black top part on with the red headlight panels below and involved all kinds of strange angles for the edges of these items, and then trimmed it in silver. The fading stripe on the side is strange too.
Before I'm accused of being an anti R142 pro Redbird person, I'd like to say that the Redbird paint scheme is a little monotonous - I think that they'd look a bit better if something was put in the scheme to break up the solid fields of red a little more.
The R62 front was fine. They should have left that alone. All that really is needed to designate a handicapped accesible car is a little blue wheelchair sign used everywhere else next to the door. Who needs that wierd looking stripe?
Is that what the stripe means?
I honestly thought it was just an attempt at adding a decorative touch.
The red is a bit garish; IMO, the blue & white was the best color for those cars, and green was nice, too. My dislike of the R142 from a design perspective was confirmed when the NY Times Magazine said it looked like a "friendly caterpillar."
Caterpillars are COOL!
They are the only non-flying insects I will not only not step on, but will be sad if I did. And when they become butterflies, the same can be said about them.
I have nothing against caterpillars; I just don't want to ride in one made of stainless steel with traction motors.
I don't know what's up with Philly area people and trains. This is the 3rd limb lost to a train in a week. This time on the NEC in Newark, DE
What's the purpose of standing ON the tracks
with 'camera equipment' when just a little dab
of the zoom button will do??
What's the purpose of stopping the train? By the time the engineer spots someone like that, it's too late to slow enough to make any difference in the injuries. The stopping distance is so great that the train is too far away to render assistance. Perhaps the main thing accomplished is an inspection of the equipment to check for damage? Can an engine be damaged by striking a pedestrian? If not, I think the crew should report the incident by radio and proceed to the next station where an investigator (and, if requested, a replacement engineer) can meet the train, take a statement, take a blood sample, and let the train proceed.
Whether attempting to stop would lessen any injuries or damage or not, it would appear callous and heartless if the train didn't stop. That's bad press.
Whether attempting to stop would lessen any injuries or damage or not, it would appear callous and heartless if the train didn't stop. That's bad press.
But it might keep more people off the tracks and grade crossings when a train is approaching. :-)
Seriously though, if this had happened in a remote area, the next station may be 50 miles away. I think it just makes common sense to stop the train in any accident, to inspect the train for any damage or at least clean up the mess on the front of the train and make sure no body parts are being dragged by the train. Now that would be bad press.
-- David
Chicago, IL
What can I say. All it is is carelessness. For some reason when I first read the subject, I was afraid it was someone on an organized Fan Trip. I think there is a Super Bowl PCC trip today IIRC.
In Philadelphia?
Newark, Delaware is an extremely accessible and also extremely dangerous spot on the corridor. I've taken pictures there, but always from the station platform, where I can hook my arm around the railing and hope that the wind blast from the passing train doesn't blow my tripod over (I use an old, heavy steel one there rather than my lightweight aluminum one for that reason). I have ventured onto the tracks once, to set up a camera for a between-the-rails shot, but I did that with a spotter about two miles east with a cell phone so I would have had plenty of warning in case I needed it (I didn't). (The shot worked, sort of - even with 1/1000 sec. exposure, bright sun, and good depth of field, the Metroliner was moving too fast for a crisp picture.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe use a strobe at night?
That could temporarily blind the engineer - I would never fire a strobe at a moving locomotive. And even with three big strobes and a half-dozen M25 flashbulbs ganged up it would be an iffy shot with the train in motion. I'll save that effort (and expense - M25 bulbs are about six or seven bucks EACH when you can find them nowadays) for a properly-staged shot.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That could temporarily blind the engineer - I would never fire a strobe at a moving locomotive.
Good point. I didn't think of that.
Manual Focus, anyone?
Keeps the critter still.
I had manual focus - the camera in use that day was a 1971-vintage Canon FTb equipped with a 35mm wide angle lens and a screw-in infrared shutter release that I tripped at the appropriate moment (thanks to my buddy Dan who did the calculations).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The FTbs are great manual cameras. Can you give me the details on the infrared shutter release you used either on this list or in email?
Well today I went to the Lunar New Year festival in Flushing.
The last stop on my bus was Sanford ave and Union st in Flushing. They had all the streets around downtown shut down, Main,Roosevelt,Union, and vicinity. In order to get across Roosevelt, people had to use the Main street subway station, which had alot of people in it, but just crossing under Roosevelt ave. It must've been chaos with all those bus reroutes. And the drivers on LI Bus didn't know where their temporary bus stop was, there was no sign posted at the regular stop on Roosevelt ave, though every NYCT line had signs posted. I wondered if LIRR was stopping at Flushing-Main street, since I never saw a train stopped in the station.
The parade was huge, much, much bigger than when I went two years ago.
It was crowded, and there was a mix of Korean and chinese floats. It was kind of commercialized though, with Newsday and Verizon also having floats. I was hoping they'd put a Redbird in the parade (red is a good luck color for the chinese new year). Then there was an indoor festival at PS 20, on Union st and Barclay ave. There was a business fair, and several shows in the auditorium. Alot of the stuff wasn't even Chinese,with Caribbean, African, and Indian music and dancing. Funny to see that stuff in a "chinese new year" celebration! The chinese dancers were good, but I was hoping to see some chinese music performed, I did not see any.
As far as the indoor part goes, I liked it better two years ago. It was in the Sheraton on Roosevelt ave. It was closer to the bus stop and had strictly chinese stuff, plus more businesses in the expo than today's event. Also the hotel was a warmer atmosphere than a public school.
Tomorrow I check out the parade in Chinatown. Knowing my tastes I'll probably enjoy tomorrow's parade in Chinatown a little better than what I did today. Still though, I did have a good time in Flushing today!
Xi Nin Kaui Le!
Gong Shee Fa Cai!
I know that there are many of you out there that still like the Redbirds (a.k.a. Rustbirds). If you've looked at the general condition of many of the Redbirds they've had the course. Many of them have rusty body panels. The A/C units do not work very well. They're noisy and besides which they're probably falling apart. I'm aware that the R-142s have their problems at this time but after a while they'll probably be running as well as the other cars such as the R-62s and the R-62As. Lets face the facts. The Redbirds are now simply worn out subway cars of another era and they belong in the scrap yard save for a few that will be preserved for historical purposes. Get used to the new cars because you'll probably be riding them every day in the near future.
BMTJeff
...Ya know what they say about opinions?
The Redbird in the picture looks better than most of them. I've seen some Redbirds with rust underneath the windowsills.
BMTJeff
...Ya know what they say about opinions?
Yes, that your opinion about the Redbirds don't matter.
The R142's are too sophisticated for the rigors required in a system such as NYCT. I think they will be modified and all the fancy doo-dads will be eventually disconnected. A few months ago, I discussed the K.I.S.S. theory: Keep It Simple Stupid! Word of wisdom to TA engineers I think.
While talking to the former TSS yesterday, he told me that the R142's have a windshield washer thingy on it, just like on a regular car when it spits out washer fluid so as to clean your windshield. Problem is that no washer fluid has been installed. Ugh.
Also when the R142's were built, the T/O's that had used the R110's had said to the TA that the R110 was very uncomfortable to operate because the controller was all the way on the right side. So the manufacturers of the 142's placed the controller in the middle.
Guess what, the 143's controller is back on the right. Ya can't win.
Maybe if enough T/Os complain they'll put the controller for the R-143s back in the middle if someone uses their head.
BMTJeff
If they need wiper fluid, it is another thing that that the TA has to worry about maintainance wise. And the TA will put water in there anyway and it will be frozen as well as the tubing leading to the windshield, when something breaks it will never be fixed.....you know another useless thing. Like the speedomoters on the Jamaica fleet. Personally, I don't neeed them, they are a distraction and I operated without them for a good many years. A rookie will keep more watch on that than on the air gagues! But so many don't work, nobody bangs 'em in anymore!
>>>But so many don't work, nobody bangs 'em in anymore!<<<
The only reason why they're not banged in anymore is because the radar gun phase died down.
They have speedometers on many of the other cars as well. They might be working now but a few years from now it will be a different story.
BMTJeff
FIRST THEY HAVE TO TEST ALL THE DIFFERENT FORMULA'S OF WASHER FLUID, THE KIND i USE FOR MY CAR ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH, THEYNEED THE KIND THAT COST $20 A GALLON NOT THE .99 THAT WE ALL USE
Also when the R142's were built, the T/O's that had used the R110's had said to the TA that the R110 was very uncomfortable to operate because the controller was all the way on the right side. So the manufacturers of the 142's placed the controller in the middle.
Guess what, the 143's controller is back on the right. Ya can't win.
Are you sure the complaint that went to manufacturers was about both R-110s and not just the R-110A? :)
It seems like the complaint was missed by the manufacturer of the R-110B cars. I think that the T/Os should complain about the controller handle placement in the R-143 subway cars and maybe, just maybe the controller handle will be relocated where it belongs.
BMTJeff
If the fancy doo-dads don't breakdown they won't have to be disconnected. I don't think that the R-142s will have the problems that the R-44s and R-46s had.
BMTJeff
But they ARE breaking down! Read the posts!!!!!!!!
Do you think they'll manage to fix the problems with all of the fancy devices in time?
BMTJeff
The reason the MTA is having problems now is that it wants to get these trains running well before full deployment to prevent the R-44/46 debacle.
Any other problems are problems that occur to any other subway car, but the dumbass anti-R142 camp likes to sensationalize the incidents.
I remember the R-44/46 debacle. They had nothing but problems with those cars in their first years of service. Unlike the R-142s they didn't even test the new technologies before they put the R-44/46 subway cars into service. There was a time where a week did not go by without hearing about some problem with the R-44/46 subway cars.
BMTJeff
I discussed the K.I.S.S. theory: Keep It Simple Stupid!
The last word of that theory describes it best.
It's not a stupid theory. You can have high tech and it still be simple. When you add extra high tech stuff just for high tech's sake, you'll end up with an overcomplicated machine that will be expensive to maintain. If one function of an old car can be improved with a mircoprocessor on a new car, that's good. If you want to replace an old part with a mircoprocessor just because it's high tech, even though its operation will be slower and more complicated, that's stupid.
I agree with your theory. (K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid!)
BMTJeff
yes! & please re-install the railfan window like on all redbirds!!
yes! & please re-install the railfan window like on all redbirds!!
There was a previous post reiterating to you that the R142/A DOES have railfan windows.
Salamallah:
I haven't ridden an R-142/R-142A but, from what I've read from other postings the R-142/R-142A subway cars does have railfan windows.
BMTJeff
They do. You can clearly see out the cab door's window. Anyone who claims they can't see out the cab door's window is blind as a bat.
R142#2:
From what you're telling me the view must be clear than in the R-62s/R-62As and the R-68/R-68As which have poor excuses for railfan windows.
BMTJeff
A conductor on the R-142 on the 6 line today told me the R-142s can only display red marker signs. I heard on the site they can display other colors. I want to see green on the 4, 5 and 6. We need purple for the 7. Is the conductor right? I hope not.
The conductor is right. They can only display red. If they could display other colors I'm sure they would be using green for the Lex already.
Shawn.
Probably, some genius at 370 Jay Street knows they can display green and isn't telling. Or they forgot how to do it.
Roll signs work alot better in NYC than the LEDs. DC had problems with the rolls but in NYC, they are a necessity.
They won't be able to display red unless they're bipolar or whatever it's called. I still like my idea of making them modular. Just drop in the green version for trains assigned to Lex. Red for 7th Av. Purple for the 7 if they ever see the R142's :)
Shawn.
Roll signs work alot better in NYC than the LEDs. DC had problems with the rolls but in NYC, they are a necessity.
Why?
Rollsigns are a pain in the ass. The operator has to go out and crank each and every rollsign, two per car, with their wrist, not to mention the front and rear rollsigns (and the middle rollsigns if he wants to prevent confusion). With electronic signs, all you have to do is press a few buttons and you're all set, no problem.
I have nothing against the technology, I just wits they could have put different color lights. When you don't see well like me, it is very easy to tell a green five from a red two. With everything red, it makes my life a bit more challenging. Good thing I have my trusty 10X monocular!
My Page
Well, the conductor takes care of the side rollsigns, especially at his/her operating postions. The trai operator takes care of the end rollsigns.
You would think that rollsigns would be even worse in NYC with all the possible different stations that may at one point be used as terminals. It would be a pain for operators to have to roll through signs for stations that are only used as terminals on average once a week, or once a month every time that the train turns around.
I get on a southbound 5 at Pelham Parkway today. Now, the TA website says the 5 should be running fine. But, 180th was the last stop on all 5's. OK. I get on a 2 and hear on my tranceiver that there is a switch problem at Jackson Avenue. I think they meant the switches south of Jackson that merge the express track into the locals. 15 minute delay at Prospect. On my tranceiver I hear motormen calling for Police because the passengers on other trains are getting seriously ticked. Finally move to Jackson. After two minutes, we wrongrail back to Prospect on the southbound local track, switching to the express track before Prospect. Relay. Head south on the express track, switching to the Northbound local south of Jackson. Wrong rail into 3rd Avenue. Pick up passengers. Continue to Grand Concourse, switching back to the southbound track. Normal ride to Brooklyn.
Why is the El between 241st Street and 3rd Avenue so frequently worked on?
I love my radio because I know what's going on before everyone else. :)
YOU'RE EXPERIENCE IS NOTHING! I board a #2 Sunday at 241 st at 11:34 AM which left at 11:50 AM. We travel fine to Jackson where I pick up on my scanner that there is one track operation back to Manahttan. We back up to the middle track and wait 14 minutes for a northbound to pass. We wait a few more minutes for them to tie down the stops so we can proceed. We proceed thru 3rd Avenue stop where we have to announce five times that although we are on the northbound track we are a southbound #2. We then get to 149th-Grand Concourse where we are held by supervision. The radio comes to life and I hear that we are to travel down the Lex. The T/O pleads with control that he already has two passengers banging on his door and to let him go down the westside. They refuse and we have another five minutes of announcements that we are going down the eastside. We finally pullout and when we get to 125st-Lex we find out on top of all the delays and the Eastside detour we get to go LOCAL. Can you top that.
Probably because that el between East Tremont and 3rd Avenue is so old. It was part of the original Contract 1 construction. Geez, that sounds like a pretty bad experience on the 2.
Can I ask this question? WHY DOES THE 2 TRAIN HAVE TWO AND A HALF HOUR HEADWAYS DURING THE AM RUSH HOUR? The 2 has the worst rush hour service in New York. I take the 5 train to 149th Street, Grand Concourse every morning. When I get off, I wait while 145,000 more 5 trains pass. Finally, after 6 weeks, a 2 train comes in with dead bodies and people riding on the roof. Why is the 2 so bad during rush hour.
I hate to make accusations, but it seems whenever a line passes through neighborhoods with high minorities, I.E the 2 in the North Bronx, the service stinks. If this is the reason, it is horribly unjust.
The 2 should be the express from 180th to 3rd Avenue. But idiots like Assemblyman Jeff Klein keep blocking it.
By the way, I have used much exaggeration in this post. The ratio of 5 trains to 2 trains during rush hour is only 50 to 1. Sorry.
How odd. On the east side, the ratio of 4 trains to 5 trains is about that much. This means the ratio of 4 trains to 2 trains is 100:1.
Can I ask this question? WHAT IS IT WITH YOU AND HYPERBOLE?
Sorry. I just get too caried away, and like practicing my html. :)
The 5 has to be the express. It discourages all the people at the local stops from taking the Lex, already too crowded.
Congratulations to Hank Eisenstein for posting the 190,000th message on Sub Talk
BMTJeff
Hoo-ray for me.
-Hank
I have noticed that the digital side signs on the R142 are not the same as the R142A's. The R142's have a dot matrix for the route section while the route section on the R142A's is the same as the destination type. I don't know what the name is of those signs but they're not like anything I've seen before. There are many different "cells" of different shapes that make up the type. They're nice though they make the type look really good. You would see what I'm talking about if you saw them closely enough.
Shawn.
My unbiased report on the difference between the R142 and the R142A equipment. This report was paid with your tax dollars and I hope that you find it quite informative
R142-it sucks
R142A-it sucks
Thank you.
I noticed tonight coming home from Pennsylvania from my little snowboarding day trip that there is a single-tracked non-powered rail line that passes by the Delaware Water Gap. Does anyone know who runs this line? Is it in use?
Shawn.
It was once the DL&W main line from NYC to Scranton and beyond. Today it is either operated by NS or the Lakawana RR short line. There is an abandonned signal tower st Slateford and an abandonned station right next to the I-80 bridge.
http://www.railroad.net/forums/load/erie/msg0615441923440.html
This should help.
On page 81 in "New York City Subway Cars" by James Clifford Greller, he shows R-26 number 7773 with an R-22 storm door at one end. I have ridden this very train on the 5 line. It has the storm doors at both ends.
Does anybody know the history of this car? Why does it have replacement doors? Was there an accident?
Just curious.
It's a HISTORIC EVENT if any given folk can actually
FIND this car... I, for one, saw it five feet away,
but was artistically distracted by it's handpainted
number plate.. by the time I affixed my cam to the
number plate... the train took off!!
Missed Boarding at Union Square..
Tony,
I don't think there is anything historic about this car. Probably the old storm door was defective, removed and an R-21/22 storm door laying around was chosen.
As I reported here a few times, there is an R-26 or 28 with an R-12/14 cab door on the #2 end. The R-12/14 cab doors have louvers on the bottom, just like the R-10.
Of course there was the R-27/30 with an R-16 storm door, just like two R-10's. And there was R-42 on the (D), pre-GOH in the early 80's, with an R-32 storm door I saw myself.
The list goes on !
Bill "Newkirk"
Now....If they could only find all of the old, Pre-GOH, R-40 and R-42 doors with the longer windows and put them back on..
7271 before scrapping off the Broadway had one R15 side door panel on the crew switch corner. One R30 had a pair of R32 side door panels. 6723 scrapped from Livonia had an R33 door panel and there was a 3138 before transfer from Jamaica to Concourse that had all the side door panels with R9 door glass sized windows and ventiation louvers.
"6723 scrapped from Livonia had an R33 door panel"
Are you talking about a side door or a storm door? About 12 years ago when R-17's and 21/22's were being scrapped, I went through a couple of cars at SBK interchange (2nd Ave, 39th ST).
I don't remember if it was an R-17 or 21/22, but this car had an R-26,28,33,36 style (single pane) storm door. R-10 #3138 you talked about was like the R-12 or 14 whose regulation side doors had the single glass panes removed and a smaller glass pane and vent louvre was installed. This experiment proved a failure to try to cool these R-10 and 12/14 whose small fans weren't a great help anyway. The doors were never changed, just the window panes.
Bill "Newkirk"
That R-27 had not only the storm door of an R-16, but also an entire end of an R-16! It was a case of taking two cars which had been involved in accidents (one with a BMT standard - you know who won that skirmish) and grafting the good ends together.
Tony Mirabella:
I've seen the very same picture in James Clifford Greller's book "New York City Subway Cars" that you've seen of Car No. 7773 with an R-22 style storm door at one end. It is interesting to see parts from defunct cars on existing cars.
BMTJeff
I've been on 7773 a number of times. Once, it served as the last car on a 5 train, so I opened the sliding window a bit just to see what it was like when subway windows opened at the ends. Interesting!
Mitch45:
I wonder what it felt like when the windows in the storm doors were open. It must have been great to have the air rushing through the car. I must have been great on a hot summers' day to have the window in the storm door open when the train was on an express run on an elevated or other outside line (I could just imagine what it must have been like what the BMT Triplexes were like for example when you opened the storm door windows on a hot day and the train was running on the Sea Beach express to Coney Island.) I bet that the car cooled off in a hurry.
BMTJeff
Standing near the front window you could cool off, but in the tunnels (especially the double-lined and heat-retaining Contract 1 tunnels) the windows on the R-17/R-21/R-22s in Cars 2 through 10 really didn't provide that much cooling off in the summer. The R-29/33/36s seemed to be marginally better because their fan and ventalation systems circulated the air inside the cars faster (and a light to medium crowd on an R-29/33/36 on other sections of the system could actually be comfortable with the fans going full blast).
I wouldn't expect the cars to cool off very much inside the tunnels because the tunnels retain the heat but, when they're outside they could cool off fairly quickly because of the frsh air entering the train.
BMTJeff
From the front car yes, but the circulating air in-between the cars from spots 1-2 through 9-10 never really generated much force to push the air through the cars during the summer no matter how fast the train was going. You'd get more air in by dropping the side windows, which is probably why they dropped the drop-sash windows when the R-26/28s and their BMT cousins arrived.
I would agree with you that you can only cool off the front car of a train with a drop sash window in the storm door. You're better off dropping the side windows once you're in the 2nd car of the train and beyond.
BMTJeff
Oh yeah? Well, I caught this car at the FRONT of the #5 Bronx Express train on a beautiful mild spring day in 1999. I opened the window and basked . . . It only emphasized the fact that I missed out on the subway's glory days!
yes!! the good old r 22=21 was one great IRT subway car!! i remember when the subway was a subway!!
oh really? where did u see that at? i would luv to get pics of those and the subway is now a subway. it wasn't one back in ur time with all that crime and poorly maintained rolling stock it was basically called the stairs to hell. or thats what my ma called it.
how about 1969 1972 ???
>>!! i remember when the subway was a subway!!
What is it now? has it been rerouted? From looking at this site it is still underground.
the r-1s -r-9s bmt standards irt low & high vs..
How do you know it was a storm door from an R-22? Perhaps it was from an R-21. How do you tell the difference?
To everyone who'se expressed interest in (and made advance purchases) of my book "A Tale of Ten Cities" my sincerest thanks. I would especially like to thank Anon_e_mouse (for providing a direct link to my publisher), as well as Bill Newkirk and Mark S. Feinman and to others who've e-mailed me but who'se names I unfortunately can't recall at this moment. Believe me I am grateful to ALL OF YOU! I would also like to give thanks to this site's Webmaster who has been gracious enough to allow me to post this message as well as to the webmaster of www.chicago-l.org who recently took me on a tour of the Douglas "L" in one of the vacant motorman's cabs. What a thrill! So my thanks to all of you and I hope you enjoy the book.
Peace!
Eric Dale Smith
When I was in school, I once read a book about two kids who were on the subway in lower Manhattan. They were the only ones left on the car and somehow, they were transported back in time to New Amsterdam. I don't remember the name of the book or the author. Does this sound familiar to anyone and does anyone remember the name of the book or the author?
There was a thread on this about a year or so ago, maybe more... I don't remember the details, but if you read back you should be able to find it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My wife got the information about the book from the Queensboro Public Library. It is called "The Magic Tunnel" by Caroline Dwight Emerson. It was published in 1964 by Four Winds Press. The book is out of print but available at 8 branches of the library. Thank you anyway.
And, if you'd like to own your own copy, abebooks lists 38 copies available at the present time, ranging in price from $2 for a paperback to $41 for a hardback - lots of paperback copies under $7 in the listings.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
GEEEEEZ..I remember reading this book as a kid....especially the part when they are trying to get back 'home', trying to raise the fare of a couple of animal skins, and maybe some beads or something....
Binghamton has dueling feasibility studies for passenger service to NYP via Scranton, or to Hoboken via Port Jervis. Story in last Monday’s Binghamton Press and Sun-Bulletin.
There is some serious talk about new service to Mt. Pocono, Pennsylvania. Is that related to this? The service to Pennsylvania is supposedly under construction, and will be finished sometime next year.
The studies are wholly unrelated. The Scranton Study ("Lackawanna Cutoff") has complete ridership/ cost estimates ... what remains is figuring out who pays what (NJ vs. PA).
There is also a study in the works to possibly extend the Raritan Valley Line in the Allentown/ Easton I-78 corridor. That one hasnt left the drawing board yet.
As per usual, there are no shortages of studies.
Matt Ledger
The NJ-ARP has a great map of all of the new passenger rail service lines in consideration and on the drawing boards:
http://www.nj-arp.org/njt2020.html
PPS
I don't know, but those 'cheap Poconos Homes' folks are advertising like SOME kind of rail line is JUST around the corner...[just like the guys who sold property in Brooklyn to folks telling them that the IRT will be extended down to Marine Parkway..any day now...]
Only about 13 years too late for me. I went to school in Binghamton, but graduated in 1988. I used to hate having to take the Dog back and forth.
CG
I take it this would be Amtrak service.
:-) Andrew
I think that question is still up in the air, so to speak.
Some of you might want to check out this web site for info on the Lackawanna Cutoff project:
www.pennjerseyrail.org
Here is another site with some pictures of the Cutoff:
http://users.netreach.net/jprock/silent.htm
A question about the extensions to West Trenton and Philipsburg on the Raritan Valley line: weren't those extensions used before for passenger service? Have they been abandoned or are they still being used for freight? Will it connect with SEPTA for an alternate route to Philadelphia? 8-)
The West Trenton extension was used by the Reading's Wall Street and Crusader.
And that service was continued by NJ Transit till some time in the 70s-80s. It connected in W. Trenton with SEPTA. I knew commuters to NY who lived in Philly suburbs who took it.
Yea, I still have one of the timetables from ~1980 showing "The Wall Street Express" and "The Crusader" going all the way out to Reading Terminal. I was surprised that such a long route was equipped with only RDC's. Wasn't the trip from Philly's suburbs to NYC a slow trip for what must have been a fairly decrepit line at the time?
..spotted on E-Bay...
Pelham 1-2-3 VHS
Not my auction.
Amazing - it is an ex-rental and it sold for more than the cost of a brand new tape (for example, at buy.com).
And you can get the DVD for about the same price as the eBay VHS - dvdpricesearch lists it for $12.14.
It's the lead editorial on the webpage today. They also support creating free transfers, which I would guess means tearing down the gate seperations at 33rd, 23rd and 14th streets, though I doubt they'd go as far as putting a stairway into the No. 1/9 platform at Cortlandt Street going down to the PATH-WTC mezzanine.
Daily News Editorial on PATH-Metrocard connection
From the article:
Leaders at the MTA support extending the MetroCard to PATH. As do PA commissioners. Officials at NJTransit like the idea, too. So who is pouring molasses in the gears? It seems that some PA staff members are holding out for a more advanced SmartCard. But that technology is years away. MetroCard is here now and has been battle-tested in the world's toughest subway.
Don't NYCTA turnstiles already have the capability to read SmartCards? They're built by the same manufacturer and almost identical to the CTA's turnstiles, and all CTA turnstiles and farecard vending machines have SmartCard capability in addition to the standard Transit Cards. The CTA is currently testing a SmartCard system on a trial basis, and as a participant in this testing phase, I've been using a SmartCard for several months now. So far no problems.
If the NYCTA turnstiles do indeed have this capability, it seems like the sensible thing to do would be to install them on the PATH system as the editorial advocates, continue using MetroCards for the time being, and then phase in the SmartCards system-wide as they are introduced.
If, however, the NYCTA turnstiles do not have this capability, then I'd say somebody at MTA headquarters really had their head up their ass when they first ordered those things. (Wouldn't be the first time, I suppose.)
How can you tell the difference? The turnstiles should have a small plastic circle, about 4-5 inches in diameter, located on the front of the turnstile about 30 inches above the ground. That's the SmartCard reader. If they have this feature, then the concerns of both the PA staffers and Daily News editorial writers are moot. If they don't have this feature, then blame the MTA suits for not chosing that feature when they had the chance, since they would now have to pay through the nose to retrofit existing turnstiles if they ever wanted to use SmartCard technology on the system.
-- David
Chicago, IL
With all this hype about "smart cards" I fail to understand the advantages over current system, for one magnetic stripe cards are cheaper. What additional needed functionality does the "smart card" have?
Arti
It basically depends on how the transit authority plans to use it. At its most basic level, SmartCards can be easily replaced (including full value remaining on the card) if they are lost or stolen. They also eliminate the need for dipping or swiping the card, as they are merely touched to a pad to activate the turnstile. (Depending on how they're designed, they could even be attached to key chains in a format similar to the Mobil SpeedPass.) Since I've been using my SmartCard I've found it much faster and more convenient than using a standard Transit Card.
SmartCards also have the potential to be used at local shops and restaurants instead of cash, and could even possibly be used as ATM or credit cards. The technology already exists for these uses, but it's just a matter of developing the logistics of implementation.
For those who are interested, here's a scan of the front and back of my own SmartCard. The size and thickness are about the same as a regular credit card.
(Here's one for the What's wrong with this picture? file, aside from the obvious "On-time, Clean, Safe, Friendly" farce: The railcar pictured is a 3200-Series car with Red Line signage and marker lights, but 3200's don't run on the Red Line! I've been using this card for almost six months now and I just noticed that as I was scanning it.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
[It basically depends on how the transit authority plans to use it. At its most basic level, SmartCards can be easily replaced (including full value remaining on the card) if they are lost or stolen.]
The same would apply on magnetic stripe cards (examples: bank cards) if implemented.
[They also eliminate the need for dipping or swiping the card, as they are merely touched to a pad to activate the turnstile. ]
I agree on that, but is it worth the cost.
[SmartCards also have the potential to be used at local shops and restaurants instead of cash, and could even possibly be used as ATM or credit cards. The technology already exists for these uses, but it's just a matter of developing the logistics of implementation. ]
Totally disagree, transit authority is not a bank. Why create some state run competition to something private sector has successfully done for decades (credit, ATM cards)
Arti
The same would apply on magnetic stripe cards (examples: bank cards) if implemented.
There is no way to keep track of which transit cards have what value on them and who owns that transit card. If you lose a MetroCard with $50 on it, you're out $50. If you lose a SmartCard with $50 on it, you pay a $5 replacement fee and get a new card with $50 on it. You're only out $45. And a magnetic stripe can easily be erased by getting it too close to a magnetic field such as a pair of headphones or many other household items. SmartCards don't have that problem.
[They also eliminate the need for dipping or swiping the card, as they are merely touched to a pad to activate the turnstile. ]
I agree on that, but is it worth the cost.
It's worth it to me, and it would be even more worth it to have them in a format that could be attached to a key chain. No more fumbling through my wallet in a deserted subway station at 3:00 AM.
Totally disagree, transit authority is not a bank. Why create some state run competition to something private sector has successfully done for decades (credit, ATM cards)
Calm down, nobody ever said the MTA or CTA was going into the banking business. (Besides, if somebody really wants a bank with long waits and surly employees just like on the subway, we already have Fleet Bank.) But your SmartCard number could be electronically linked to your ATM or credit card number, allowing such things as subway fares being directly deducted from your cecking account or credit card, or 30-passes automatically being renewed each month by deducting the amount from checking or credit. Mobil's SpeedPass already operates much the same way at Mobil gas stations, and now McDonald's has a trial program to allow SpeedPasses to be used to pay for meals. The possibilities are virtually unlimited.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[There is no way to keep track of which transit cards have what value on them and who owns that transit card. If you lose a MetroCard with $50 on it, you're out $50. If you lose a SmartCard with $50 on it, you pay a $5 replacement fee and get a new card with $50 on it. You're only out $45. And a magnetic stripe can easily be erased by getting it too close to a magnetic field such as a pair of headphones or many other household items. SmartCards don't have that problem. ]
There is no difference in that, it's just a matter of implementation, smart card doesn't give you that feature because it is a smart card, as I said think of bank cards as an example.
Smart card can easily wiped out by putting it into the microwave oven :-)
[It's worth it to me, and it would be even more worth it to have them in a format that could be attached to a key chain. No more fumbling through my wallet in a deserted subway station at 3:00 AM. ]
But is it worth the few billion dollars it takes to implement it, i.e. to replace a totally functional and not yet amortized system?
[.) But your SmartCard number could be electronically linked to your ATM or credit card number, allowing such things as subway fares being directly deducted from your cecking account or credit card, or 30-passes automatically being renewed each month by deducting the amount from checking or credit. Mobil's SpeedPass already operates much the same way at Mobil gas stations, and now McDonald's has a trial program to allow SpeedPasses to be used to pay for meals. The possibilities are virtually unlimited.]
All of the above can be done with magnetic stripe card, in fact it is already done, thats how debit card linked to checking account functions.
Arti
But is it worth the few billion dollars it takes to implement it, i.e. to replace a totally functional and not yet amortized system?
SmartCards in Chicago are an added feature that will compliment, not replace, the existing fare-payment system. The turnstiles and bus fareboxes are already designed to accept SmartCards, and anybody wishing to use standard Transit Cards will still have that option. Since NYCTA uses virtually identical fare-collection equipment, the same should hold true for New York unless the MTA brass is even more inept and shortsighted than I had previously thought.
Here's the page on the CTA's website that explains the SmartCard pilot program.
All of the above can be done with magnetic stripe card, in fact it is already done, thats how debit card linked to checking account functions.
Magnetic readers often have mechancal parts and need frequent cleaning and maintenance. SmartCard technology uses no moving parts, and requires no physical contact between the card and the reader. Magnetic stripes are outdated technology with many limitations, similar to cassette tapes in an age of compact discs and MP3's. More and more banks and credit card companies are beginning to implement SmartCard technology into their ATM and credit cards, and I suspect it's only a matter of time before magnetic stripes and readers are completely done away with.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[Here's the page on the CTA's website that explains the SmartCard pilot program. ]
Don't think that they could get away for charging $5 for what would be percieved as nothing in NYC. Also this kind of trackability would raise privacy concerns, there was a discussion about it a while ago.
Also how would you implement single fare tickets, or why would I want to buy $5 card if I'm visiting and plan to spend $3 on fares. That means that you'd have to have parallel systems anyway.
[Magnetic readers often have mechancal parts and need frequent cleaning and maintenance. ]
But media is much cheaper.
Arti
Don't think that they could get away for charging $5 for what would be percieved as nothing in NYC. Also this kind of trackability would raise privacy concerns, there was a discussion about it a while ago.
Like I've said before, the $5 gives people a permanent farecard that can be replaced at full value if it is ever lost or stolen. The merits of the technology aside, think of the $5 as insurance coverage against a lost, stolen or damaged Transit Card. As for privacy concerns, I suspect only a small number of extremely paranoid people would be worried about government officials tracking their every move, but if that's a major concern for somebody there's nothing to stop them from using standard farecards or cash. Here in Chicago, the SmartCard has been met with overwhelming acceptance by those who have used it.
Besides, five dollars is hell of a lot more money in Chicago than it is in New York. :-)
Also how would you implement single fare tickets, or why would I want to buy $5 card if I'm visiting and plan to spend $3 on fares. That means that you'd have to have parallel systems anyway.
The SmartCard is greared toward the vast majority of riders who use the system on a daily basis. One-time riders or visitors would continue to use regular farecards, or possibly a SmartCard that they can turn in later and get their $5 back (speaking hypothetically here). And if the use of SmartCards and regular farecards constitutes a "parallel system", then we already have several parallel systems by the fact that cash, tokens and MetroCards are all accepted on the system.
[Magnetic readers often have mechancal parts and need frequent cleaning and maintenance. ]
But media is much cheaper.
That's where the five-dollar fee comes in, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the cost of the media drop substantially as it becomes more common anyway. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to see $5 fee dropped altogether eventually.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The smart card is more like the successful EZpass system used to collect auto tolls. You have the option of linking your EZpass account to your credit card. When the EZpass balance drops to a certain level your EZpass account is automatically replenished from your credit card. A smart Metrocard should work the same way saving you trips to a token clerk or vending machine for replenishment. The benefit to motorists is that you sail through most toll plazas, no more rolling down the windows to pay a toll. The downside of the EZpass technology is that it makes it easier for agencies to raise tolls. The PANYNJ's recent toll hike and planned implemenation of congestion pricing is an example of this. The PANYNJ's official reason for favoring congestion pricing is that it will "encourage" off-peak driving. The real reason is that peak hour commuters are a captive market as they have to be at work by a certain time. Look for the MTA's NYCT and B&T agencies to attempt the same in the future.
Economic discrimination, against the working class in favor of the leisure class.
payup!
avid
Could cards like AmEx's Blue and Visa's SmartCard be programmed to be used as subway cards? Smart Cards would be better for subways.
I don't see any technical reason why not, although you'd have to take into consideration the processing time for the transaction. Nobody wants to be stuck at a turnstile during morning rush hour with their train approaching while the display on the turnstile says: "PLEASE WAIT - AUTHORIZING TRANSACTION..." :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
[I don't see any technical reason why not, although you'd have to take into consideration the processing time for the transaction. ]
I think VISA and AMEX are not contacless smart cards, they're more like European phone cards.
[Nobody wants to be stuck at a turnstile during morning rush hour with their train approaching while the display on the turnstile says: "PLEASE WAIT - AUTHORIZING TRANSACTION..." :-) ]
Actually my understanding is that the advantage of those credit cards is that they can perform off line transactions, they work somewhat like stored value telephone cards.
Arti
To turn this conversation in another direction, and political considerations aside, WHY CAN"T THE MTA RUN PATH???
As a transplanted Brooklynite now living steps from the Grove St station, I am confounded by the "two-system" approach here. The port Authority has no business running the PATH. I can just smell inefficiency whever I look at one of their train operators. Serparate training, separate pensions, separate everything.
The H&M was built to IRT specs, wasn't it? And it's older than the majority of the NYC system. For as much as people complain about the MTA being stupid and inefficient, the PA puts them to shame.
I used to work in high school in food service at the WTC. There was a subsidiary of Hilton that had an exclusive franchise to run all of the restaurants in the WTC. This is pre-bombing. How could that have happened by anything other than graft?
I'd be interested in hearing what people have to say about this....
PPS
[To turn this conversation in another direction, and political considerations aside, WHY CAN"T THE MTA RUN PATH??? ]
A quote from Tri-State Transportation Campain newsletter:
The Advance said NYC Transit "strongly signaled its opposition" to the Staten Island-NJ bus service by its absence. NYC Transit spokesperson Al O'Leary explained the agency's pull-out simply by saying, "We don't do interstate service," maintaining that support for the light rail connection would have to come down from the Metropolitan Transportation Authority.
Arti
>>How could that have
happened by anything other than graft?
<<
Easy, more than likely the concession contract was put out to bid and they won.
As to separating PATH from PA--VERY BAD IDEA. The WTC rental 'profits' are what pay for PATH service. Without this funding source no trains. As to unifying the system from a rider's perspective, YES. The mecganism is so obvious only politicians fail to understand. Metrocard everywhere, AND 'free' Metrocard transfer to TA. All this requires is a financial agreement for revenue sharing.
I don't care if the workers have different contract deals, that's for them to negotiate.
Well what about "MTA Hudson Tubes"?
Metro North gets paid by the state of Conn. for service to Conn. Metro North contracts with NJT to run the Port Jervis and Pascack valley Lines and pays NJT to run those lines. Why cant The PA or state of NJ provide some money to NY and have MTA run the PATH which could be operated by a new subsidiary company: "HuTOA- Hudson Tubes Operating Authority." As a start, they would inherit current PATH employees who would then work for HuTOA and be grandfathered in.This way there would be no problem with FRA since the subway would not be running that system. New employees would be hired by HuTOA and subject to their hiring practices and wages.
The PA should be happy to unload PATH--they were created to run ports and not trains.
Current employees would be retrained if needed but they would work only for HuTOA and no other MTA agency.
Why would running PATH interest or benefit MTA or NYS?
Arti
NYS would benefit since the PA would then be able to concetrate on Bridges, Ports, and the airports.
NYCT would benefit by having a second set of 6th av local tracks plus service to NJ.
[NYS would benefit since the PA would then be able to concetrate on Bridges, Ports, and the airports. ]
What difference would that make.
[NYCT would benefit by having a second set of 6th av local tracks plus service to NJ. ]
How would it benefit NYCT, they have to find more funding to run PATH, somehow try to make NJ to pay for their share. Those 6th Ave local tracks take virtually nobody from nowhere to nowhere in NYC and can't really help if there's a problem on other 6th Ave tracks.
Arti
It allows lower-standard-of-living workers such as myself live outside the city and commute to my not-quite-high-paying job in midtown. Jersey City and Hoboken are the Brooklyn Heights and Astoria on the other side of the river.
I would think that there could be a justification politically for this move. My original question said "political considerations aside". No one has found a good non-political reason for why this hassn't already happened.
PPS
[It allows lower-standard-of-living workers such as myself live outside the city and commute to my not-quite-high-paying job in midtown. Jersey City and Hoboken are the Brooklyn Heights and Astoria on the other side of the river. ]
This sounds to me like NJ problem. Perhaps NJT should run PATH and integrate it into their fare system (HBLR sounds like a good canditate.)
[I would think that there could be a justification politically for this move. My original question said "political considerations aside". No one has found a good non-political reason for why this hassn't already happened]
Mass transit being subsidized public service is political. One reason not to do so would be to not complicate MTA funding.
Arti
There's at least one way NYC would benefit by keeping the current arrangement. Each time there was a NYC ransit strike, PATH kept running and provided the only mass transit service from midtown to downtown (through Hoboken.)
[Each time there was a NYC ransit strike, PATH kept running and provided the only mass transit service from midtown to downtown (through Hoboken.) ]
It would probably provide little help, mostly to LIRR commuters, but otherwise it really connects one employment center to another.
Arti
Actually, last strike, I was working downtown and living in Riverdale. I took PATH at WTC to 33rd, then walked to GCT for the MetroNorth Hudson line. It was a lifesaver! And PATH ran thru-expresses directly from WTC non-stop to 33rd.
[And PATH ran thru-expresses directly from WTC non-stop to 33rd. ]
Where did they stop and how crowded, frequent were they?
Arti
As I recall, they left WTC as-needed. They ran non-stop to 33rd. (The regular service ran as alternate trains.) They were very crowded. After the first 2 days, the motorman's union objected that this was not allowed by their contract, so for a day PATH reverted to normal service and you had to change at Pavonia. But then PATH got a court order and resumed the thru-service.
[so for a day PATH reverted to normal service and you had to change at Pavonia. But then PATH got a court order and resumed the thru-service. ]
I can imagine the platform crowding at Pavonia!
[the motorman's union objected that this was not allowed by their contract]
What was the point of the argument, did the contract specify the routs they can run on?
Arti
Sorry, don't remember. They may have said they had the right to approve new routes that were never used before.
motorman's union
The PATH uses Engineers, not motormen. Was the BLE complaining or do they use a different union.
Here is why they should remain separate organisations even though I DO want the services more coordinated. Think back to when the TA was afraid to AC the cars claiming it wouldn't work. Luckily PATH already had cars w/AC so Lindsay could hammer on the TA to get AC on the R-40's. Also the PATH is currently a sharper operation IMHO, which at least holds up a mirror showing how to do it better.
As was just posted about "revenue sharing" if the two companies didn't merge lets look at a generic situation. You live in Jersey City (JSQ) and your job is on DeKalb Ave (D). Your morning fare to ride the Path at JSQ would go to the PA while the afternoon fare at DeKalb would go to the TA, now the TA might not mind AS MUCH but the PATH would lose give or take 1/2 their fares (not counting people who use it to stay within Jersey.) This is one reason that free transfers would be very inprobable.
Last I read in The Star Ledger that seniors will be sticking with $1 fare on Path, how could Path implement this? There are no station agents, the only way I could think of would be to give seniors a card to insert into the cash-accepting turnstiles that would make the fare $1, but what would you do for non-regular riders?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Last I read in The Star Ledger that seniors will be sticking with $1 fare on Path, how could Path implement this? There are no station agents, the only way I could think of would be to give seniors a card to insert into the cash-accepting turnstiles that would make the fare $1, but what would you do for non-regular riders?
PATH farecards store rides, not cash-equivalence. It's a matter of finding a way to sell a distinctively different farecard for the folks eligible for the discount. This could be done at the newsstands that currently sell the cards, by asking to see the currently-accepted forms of senior ID.
There are actually passenger assistance agents in some stations at some times, but generally only high-volume stations during the entering rush (Newark AM, WTC PM, for example).
It might be possible to use the passenger assistance phone to handle one-off fares, since the phone agents view the closed-circuit TV monitors - "Go put $1 in the left-hand machine and I'll buzz you in".
The MTA is a New York State funded agency. The PA (PATH's parent) is a bi-state NY/NJ agency. There are many, many funding issues involved in your proposal. There would be many funding issues for capital expenditures and who pays how much to make up the operational deficits to be worked out.
(WHY CAN"T THE MTA RUN PATH???)
Most PATH riders are from NJ. Like most mass transit, it costs more than it earns. The deficit is now being sucked out of NY's airports via the Port Authority.
Let's say the MTA took it over. What services for New York City residents would you cut, or what New York City or State taxes would you raise, in order to provide a commute for New Jersey residents that is in many ways superior to what subway riders get?
The real question is, why doesn't NJT take it over?
MTA taking over PATH only makes sense if there is an agreed upon NJ subsidy for the deficit run by that section of the system within New Jersey and if the PATH system is intergrated completely into the NYC subway system in the future -- i.e., something like a tunnel along Fourth or Ninth Sts. to hook the PATH into the IRT, the same way the Chrystie St. connection merged the IND and BMT for all intents and purposes (and the size variations between the IRT and PATH would not be enough to prevent the merger, since the IND/BMT has coped for the last 29 years with certain types of cars that couldn't go into certain areas of the system, while others could be used on any line).
Now that's a good idea. I can just hear it now -- "Seventh Avenue express to Journal Square". My only worry is the lack of numbers available for IRT lines. We may have to go to things like the "pi" train or the 2-pi. I personally like the 2.5 or the 3 5/8.
PPS
We need an euler train, so that people will confuse it with the E, just like the UU and W.
Actually, the since the IRT uses numbers, they could pretty much handle an infinte number of lines, while the BMT/IND would have to go back to double-lettering if they ever built somthing as complex as the IND Second System and the Second Ave. line.
The big problem would be running out of colors -- I recommend stripes and solids, like on pool balls :-)
I would kinda like an ultraviolet line.
Most PATH riders are from NJ. Like most mass transit, it costs more than it earns. The deficit is now being sucked out of NY's airports via the Port Authority.
PATH also uses bridge and tunnel toll revenues to help subsidize PATH.
PATH also uses bridge and tunnel toll revenues to help subsidize PATH.
I assume you mean "The PA also uses...". Remember that the PA bought the bankrupt H&M because it was the least costly alternative. At the time, they knew that the H&M would not be profitable as a rail line, and if it ceased operations, the PA would have been faced with a crisis necessitating immediate construction of additional tunnels/bridges to NJ. I've posted the exact wording from the PA's internal study here a few times in the past - look in the archives.
As a New Jersey resident I can say that I don't want slimey New Yorkers controling anything inside out State boundaries and I think that they wouldn't want Jersians doing the same on their side of the line. Its best to have a non-bias 3rd party handle things. I'd rather have the devil himself run the PATH rather than give up control to New Yorkers. Also, fron my recent Subway trip I wasn't very impressed w/ the way the MTA handles things. Trains are slow slow slow and I don't think they have much respect for railfan windows. Just look at what the MTA did to the other psuedo railroad, the SIR. Its total crap. The trains piddle along, the infrastructure is a mess and service is infreaquent. At least PATH trains can still get up around 55. Just like PATCO, interstate transport should be handled by in interstate agency. Because the PA runs the PATH there is a whole new world of funding. Do you think that the MTA's capital improvement budget would go up proportionally when they bought PATH? With 2 seperate owners and 2 seperate sounces of funding more money is available to transit. No matter how the MTA screws things up, the PATH will always be there to get you home. I have found the PATH to be far more convienent and far more reliable than the MTA. One of the PA's prime jobs is getting people to work and then back home again. I wouldn't want to entrust that responsibility to some agency in New York.
You obviously know nothing about infrastructure, or about the SIR line; otherwise, you'd have realized that all but 3 stations have been completely renovated, all the cars overhauled, all the track replaced within the last six years, numerous bridges replaced, new switches, and a new signal system in the process of being developed.
-Hank
The trains were slow as snails, has less acceleration than an P32, the line was signaled Rule 251 and there were no power crossovers except at the terminal ends. Screw station renovations, that line seriously needs skip stop service or wrong railing express trains that can sustain 65mph speeds at the least. If anything I would like to see the SIR re-opened all the way to the Raritan Line connection (near CP-Aldene) in New Jersey and put the line (at least the trans Kill line) under the control of the Port Authority. They could call it PATK and the St. George terminal could finally justify having 9 tracks.
St. George has 12 tracks. Track 10 is the wye, 11 and 12 are used for cleaning. SIR has 3 tracks in Tottenville for train storage, not nearly enough for the 64 cars they have. They use the tracks at the terminal instead. As often as trains are switched, they don't need money-wasting powered switches. With only 2 tracks, both of which abut platforms, 65mph is a dream is this day and age. Top speed (allowable) passing a station is 45mph. THey already have skip-stop trains, if you bothered to look at tline when the trains actually have passengers. The service as it exists could use some improvement, but the best the schedule was off-hours(I have a pre-1960 schedule) was every 15 minutes, with every other train terminating/originating at Great Kills. The rush-hour schedule was nearly identical to todays.
As for crossing the Arthur Kill...it should happen soon, but not likely for passenger trains. The connector to the NEC runs southbound.
-Hank
Not any more than they can now. The cards are not true 'smart cards' The chip on the cards needs to come in direct contact with the reader by beung inserted. The smart card we're discussing here is a card with no contact required at all, working on RF.
-Hank
[The cards are not true 'smart cards' ]
Actually they are the original smart cards.
Arti
If, however, the NYCTA turnstiles do not have this capability, then I'd say somebody at MTA headquarters really had their head up their ass when they first ordered those things. (Wouldn't be the first time, I suppose.)
The MTA first installed Metrocard systems in 1993 when smart card systems were expensive and rare.
The MTA can simply remove the token slot and replace it with the smart card reader. The turnstiles are already electronic, so it's not like they all have to be replaced again.
The MVMs (1999) are already smart card ready.
The MTA first installed Metrocard systems in 1993 when smart card systems were expensive and rare.
Chicago was installing its nearly-identical turnstiles around the same time or shortly thereafter, and they all came with SmartCard capability. I find it hard to believe this option was not available to the MTA at the time.
Our farecard vending machines, while not having as many fancy features as the MVN's, were installed at the same time as the turnstiles and also have SmartCard capability. I'm actually surprised the CTA waited this long before rolling out the pilot program, but better late than never I suppose.
Just out of curiousity, does every turnstile on the NYCTA have a token/coin slot? On the CTA, usually only about one or two turnstiles per station have coin slots (tokens were eliminated shortly after the Transit Cards arrived on the scene). The rest only accept Transit Cards and SmartCards.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Just out of curiousity, does every turnstile on the NYCTA have a token/coin slot?
Yes, all of the regular turnstiles. The "metro maidens" that are used for unstaffed entry never have token slots.
Remember, until 1997 when all of the turnstiles were installed, hardly anyone used MetroCard. The MTA never bothered having Metrocard only lanes (like EZ-Pass only lanes) to encourage use.
This is nuts, the whole point of the fare increase is because PATH needs money. Why turn around and and waste it with free transfers. The only thing this could lead to is a higher fare for everybody. While maybe the metrocard should be used by both, there should be no free transfers.
Well, obviously implementing free transfers would require some sort of agreement between the Port Authority and the MTA on how turnstile credits at the transfer stations (33rd, 23rd and 14th streets and possibly WTC) would be divided up. But overall, I think the fares taken in from other stations would balance out -- for every person getting on at Grand Central going to, say Journal Square, there would likely be someone going the other way. Plus some stations, like Greenwich St. in Manhattan or some of the stops near the waterfront in New Jersey, might see their use increase because of the elimination of the double fare.
How about free transfers except at rush hours?
No. The object is to get people to use mass transit. How many people don't use the HBLR because they don't want to pay another fare just to connect with PATH and the city subway and buses?
It's still cheaper than driving, and a hell of a lot less stressful. I've started to lose my hair, buit I have no real options other than driving or relocating, which I can't afford to do.
-Hank
You're forgetting that after the gold (free transfer) and weekly/monthly MetroCards began, ridership and revenue both went up. Isn't the free transfer the missing link to increasing both PATH and HBLR ridership to the point where revenue would increase?
You'd probably get the same amount of ridership/revenue with just the old $1 toll. If I'm going to pay $1.50 I'd want it to go to the PATH, not the MTA.
The MTA was also afraid that if they allowed unlimited transfers they would lose money on the deal. They were wrong. The transfers brought more riders into the system and revenue went up. As far as the PA not getting its share of PATH income, it could work as revenue sharing. Fares would be going to both agencies. Without through transfers we will never get more people out of their cars.
I don't claim to know much about PATH - I used to ride it often to the Grove/Henderson stop when I did a radio show from a studio out there but I remember the curves at some spots on that line to be insanely sharp curves ... I also noted that while the cars were pretty back in the 70's but were even shorter than the redbirds. If they were to do a unification here, I suspect that the PATH car orders would have to be maintained throughout and would not permit IRT cars to run, much less B division cars.
Aside from the issues of the car lengths and sizes, I also note that there's boxes between the tracks that are much higher than any found on NYCT that would probably rip the electrical boxes off an IRT car if it were to try to run on that line without extensive modifications. PATH seems to be designed for cars that are quite short with a higher profile. So rolling stock for PATH would have to be unique to that line though interchange of the PATH cars could likely be done with the IRT at least. I trust the width of the cars are sufficient to not have an insane platform gap on the IRT ... the one thing that stands out in my mind was how SMALL the PATH cars were compared to the road warriors in the city. Now mind ya, I'm an IND hound but also rode the els in the Bronx too.
But I still don't see this happening for POLITICAL issues. The city wants to control its own subway, this is why NYCT is separate from the other operations that run outside the city and trains across any of the borders has never been done. Home rule is an important political consideration and when City infrastructure crosses a political boundary, that political control has to at least give lip service to those areas beyond the city limits. That's why there's an MTA to allow the state to kick in funding but the political division of NYCTA remains even after MTA.
Now go interstate, and suddenly the state of New York has to honor New Jersey's political demands and since it's now gone "interstate" that brings the full force of political control into the morass as well as another state. Politically, this would be a major loss of control which is why the PA exists to assuage same where facilities need to be shared between the two states. In other words, as practical as it may be, it'll give the politicos a fit and therefore must die. The one thing that politicians abhor is SHARING political power with someone else.
From a reality standpoint, you're probably right that the political turff battles would render any thought of an actual merger of the IRT and PATH inoperative, though it's not as though a bi- or multi-juristdictional subway hasn't been done. SEPTA has trains running to New Jersey and of course the Metro down in DC operates in the District, Maryland and Virginia, three places that normally don't play nice with each other.
So while the politicians -- let alone the red tape -- makes a MTA-PATH linkup unlikely, it's something that could get done, if the people involved would only look at other systems in the area and not be so provincial.
As for the cars, I think earlier discussions have said PATH trains could run on IRT tracks with a slightly wider gap than normal, but IRT trains would be as welcome on PATH as a 75-footer on the Crescent Street curve.
That was pretty much what I expected - politically though, New York City is about as parochial as it gets and its every move on a political basis has always been to preserve "home rule" at the expense of everything else. While this may be a good thing as far as keeping control of taxing authority and its revenue, makes it nearly impossible to come to agreement with the surrounding communities.
Were NYC willing to work with surrounding communities, the A train would go to Yonkers by now and Yonkers wouldn't be a "dead city" as but one example of what could be done if the trains just ended right at the city line without crossing it. But it's not the way things are done. Above the states, NYC fears triggering the need to deal with the feds on any basis beyond "se cambiamos cheques" ... :)
If they were to do a unification here, I suspect that the PATH car orders would have to be maintained throughout and would not permit IRT cars to run, much less B division cars.
Correct. There would be a slightly wider gap between the platform and the car when on the IRT, but we're talking less than an inch, so that wouldn't be a problem. The long-term solution, if PATH trains were to run extensively on the IRT, would be to purchase more trains to PATH dimensions except for the platform gap, which I believe could be fixed relatively easily on PATH (a couple of equipment relocations in the tunnels plus shave the platforms slightly). The only other major difference that I'm aware of is the trip arms - cars operating on the PATH would have to have two sets of trip cocks, just like the IRT cars that operate as pilots when moving IRT trains across the BMT/IND.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
and PATH cars have to be built to FRA standards
What about the platform height? I know it has been mentioned that the LIRR high platforms are not the same heigh as subway platforms (I forget which is higher). I am guessing that all "high platforms" on mainline railroads are basically the same height, and that would include the PATH, since it used to share trackage with the PRR.
In fact, it pretty much has to be. NJT and LIRR trains still sometimes share platforms at NYP (don't they?), and NJT and PATH share a platform (though not a track) at Newark Penn Station. So unless the trackbed at Newark Penn for the New York-bound PATH is at a different level than the trackbed across the platform for the New York-bound NEC, which I seriously doubt, PATH platform height is the same as LIRR platform height, which is different from NYCTA platform height.
Actually, I think the platform slopes down at Newark Penn... I don't ride it enough to be sure, however. Potentially a valid point, regardless.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually the trippers are the wasy part ... last I was with the railroad, A div had the trippers on the opposite side of the trucks from B division and so all of NYC's "standardized trucks" allow the tripper to be moved to the other side very easily at a car shop. That shouldn't be much of an issue but I'd be willing to bet they'd be able to easily determine which redbirds were rotten through by moving them through the PATH tunnels and see which bodies detach on the curves. :)
The sixth ave PATH stations at 23rd and 33rd are underground in the same passageway. Uptown 14th requires going up to the street and back down another stairway. WTC is in the WTC mall. For all these stations all that would be needed is a revision to the Fare Card Tables (rules) in the station computer to allow free entry if the rider came from the other system within two hours.
Each NYC Subway station and bus line has a code number to identify location of last use. If PATH were assigned a special series the turnstile would know the previous use was subway (or bus) and allow free PATH entry. Likewise, if the turnstile read the card and saw the previous use was PATh then free subway or bus entry would be allowed.
There is a precedent for that. When escalators at 51 and Lex were replaced a walking transfer was allowed. A walking transfer is being proposed between COurt House Square on the 7 and COurt Square/23rd-Ely on the E/F. A simple programming change is all that is needed. Of course, PATH would have to install Cubic Tunrstiles instead of their current GFI Turnstiles and MVMs rather than quickcard vending machines. PATH's cash turnstiles could be retained as one per entrance but no transfer would be allowed for cash, just like Token users dont get the free subway to bus transfer.
I dont see how this would be different than using MetroCard to transfer between NYCT bus and private bus.
And I want pay parity with PATH engineers!
Retro-active to the beginning of time!
avid
Now if PATH and NJT accepted Metrocard that would be some wild dream!!! More likely though, they may make PATH turnstiles accept only monthly Metrocards as well as the current system, since most people that use PATH are commuters.
I was down by the NYCHRR yard along 1 Ave in Brooklyn yesterday, where I unintentionally met up with BMTman and Lou from Brooklyn! It's amazing who you run into when you hang around scrapyards. There's a train consisting of R-44 #5319, R-30 #8528, R-22 #7349, R-30 #8483, and - heypaul & South Ferry will like this - two R-142s! Well, sort of; actually two R-17s that were mockups for the R-142. They have wooden bench seats inside, widened doorways, and articulated ends (actually, just a big hole on one end of the car where an articulated end would be). One of them has an R-62 side window and a blue number plate that reads "R142." Further down the track are single-truck locomotive #11 and an MTA flat car. These were all moved from SBK last week, as soon as a broken rail on 2 Ave was repaired, and they'll most likely be gone by tomorrow.
Back in SBK yard, there's still a consist of wrecked R-40/42s: #4685, 4427, an R-42 with no number, 4684, an unidentifiable car with no number, an unnumbered R-40, and 4228 (I have to double-check those numbers; they don't correlate with Dave's scrapped/wrecked roster). Some of them have so little sheetmetal on them, it's hard to tell they were subway cars at all; the ribbing on the side is the only giveaway. The three Q-Cars are still there, presently numbered 0619, 0618, 0617, as well as a hearty number of RTSs, including the pride of Jamaica depot, 2640 & 3033. To be continued on BusTalk later.
The old blue rail welding car was nowhere to be found.
Good report, Mike!
[The old blue rail welding car was nowhere to be found.]
As well, an old one-truck rail tamper was missing from this grouping. It was also stored at SBK.
After running into each other at Bush Terminal, I alerted Mike to my having seen an RTS with NYFD markings near Kings Plaza a couple of days earlier, so we headed over on the Belt Parkway (what a MISTAKE -- the traffic was a nightmare!). If anyone would like to see this unusual bus, it is sitting at (what else) a bus stop on Flatbush Ave. at the intersection of E. 48th Street (the 'Friendly Firehouse' is right there). And of course the Flatbush Bus Depot is about a block and a half around the corner.
BMTman
OK, those R40/42s should be:
4685 (135 St accident)
4427 (Bushwick-Aberdeen)
no# R-42
4664 (Williamsburg Br)
no# R-40
4428 (Bushwick-Aberdeen)
With no one to serve as my better judgement, I boarded the cars at NYCHRR today. 8483 is gutted with everything left in a pile on the floor of the car, while 8528 was fairly intact, minus seats. Not much left in the R-22, as it was probably in work service, though it did still have its handgrips. One "R-142" had benches all the way to the car ends, while the other stopped a few feet short of the end and had a car seat mounted on a pedestal to simulate a cab. That car also had bus-style swinging handgrips and a railing down the center of the ceiling. Pictures forthcoming when they're developed. It's a shame I forgot to grab tools on my out this morning, or I'd be assembling an R-30 cab in my bedroom right now ;). I did take a fallen "EXP" marker light lens from 8528 as a souvenir.
Ah, you did a "repeat performance" I see.
Mike, thanks for confirming the numbers on the cars. I'll try sending some of my digital shots from Saturday's trip off to the webmaster tomorrow from work.
BMTman
Yep... got back to Command, too, went in search of South Ferry St (see earlier post), and still had plenty of time to spend the rest of the day as a normal non-railfan person :). I have to try this getting-up-early-on-weekends thing more often.
I'll probably send my pictures off tomorrow, so they'll be posted in a week or two :(.
I forgot to add - while on 86 St in Jamaica, I caught a work train stopped on the el right above me: Loco #71, an R21/22 rider car (signed up as a 7), 2 flat cars, and a crane headed to Jamaica. It stopped on the el right above me for a few minutes; perfect timing for a couple great pictures :).
Mike, I believe that MOW set you saw is kept on the work-train spur in Canarsie yard. I'll try and confirm during the week.
BMTman
Trivia Question! Would anyone know what numbers were of the R-17 pair that became the R-142 Demonstrator? I recall seeing that pair outside the shop at 207th St and the middle of the pair was still in yellow and black, indicating they were work motors before undergoing mutation.
-Stef
I recall that we were hoping you would know...
No way to tell, Stef. Those babies were stripped down pretty good. And since they are sitting on scrap trucks, we can't get numbers off of there either. Bummer...
BMTman
The last two work motor R17s were 674*s used on the Corona garbage trains before being retired. All scrap R17s at 207 were converted to CWRS. Probably 6741 and 6742 if those make any sense.
7349 was proposed by a member of Branford to serve as a donor of parts for 6688. With 7349 now out of the SBK Yard, grabbing it will be impossible as it is no longer under the jurisdiction of NYCT.
-Stef
It probably didn't have much to donate.
True! Back to work on Branford's Redbird....
As a note of interest for BERA members, I spent the weekend assisting in the movement of cars into and out of the barns and the shop. Our ConnCo streetcar, received it's repaired truck and three of us had to roll it under the car. The car was moved from one end of the shop to the other.
The crane we use for work was pulled out of it's barn and placed on the shop floor. 6688 was movd to a different barn, which was a tight squeeze as it was touching coupler heads with our gasoline powered crane, we were fortunate to get the barn doors closed. With all that done, R-9 1689 was taken back into the barn after spending some time outside.
Arrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! The snow on the track added to the work of moving cars. The track needed to be cleared so it was up to me to do some snow removal. I wish we could have made use of a jet snowblower and some rock salt.
-Stef
Sounds like you put in some serious Branford MOW time, Stef.
I guess 6688 was temporarily placed in W-3's position in the barn?
BMTman
Better clear the snow, 1689 (R9) trippers still work...hehe...
There was NOTHING left of use on those R17's. They didn't even have their grids, unlike the R44 the only thing left on her was her grids.
6688 is in Barn 2 at present time. A tight fit, I might add. Matters were complicated by the fact the 6688's H2 head didn't really turn much. We could turn the couplers on each car so they weren't making direct contact with each other and the R-17 could be nudged in.
-Stef
I can't help but wish that 6688 had gone in the Quonset, since there's alot more space to play with, and besides, this is the off season! Who's gonna notice? Would the trolley car bigwigs complain if a NYC Subway Car was in a ConnCo Car Barn?
Just remember that 6688 stayed a night in that barn for Autumn in NY. Moving 6688 into and out of Barn 2 will be a little more difficult now because the car has to make contact with another vehicle. I gotta put it in the right spot or else the barn doors won't close, because of a protruding coupler....
-Stef
We wouldn't want to keep 6688 adjacent to a regular revenue
trolley car on such a close track because the anti-climber and
coupler are up high and don't align with a streetcar bumper.
Crane W-3 is scheduled to be in the shop for overhaul until
the end of March, and there is really no reason why 6688 has to
move at all before then. OTOH we do have training and charters
during that period and Barn 1 needs to be accessible.
This is all true. My only problem is that you can't keep the brake handle out of my hand. I get that constant itch as a railfan would:)
-Stef
Steff, if the 9 could fit in there...
THat was a project Mr. Ave L wanted to test and they tried to get 1689 in Barn 2, not only end clerance but side as well!
1689 cannot go in there. If the track shifts, the car won't be able to make it into and out of the barn.
6688 is ok provided there's no other cars in the way....
-Stef
There's nothing wrong with 6688 going in there, provided that you can actually close the barn doors and not have the H2 head act as an obstruction. Eeeeeekkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.
-Stef
[1689 cannot go in there. If the track shifts, the car won't be able to make it into and out of the barn.]
Stef, this is only true if there are no modifications made to the barn.
BMTman
Jeff H. knows for sure. Well Jeff?
-Stef
Wow, talk about thread drift. 1689 is not going to reside
in Barn 2 because the clearances are very poor for such a long
and wide car. In addition, it disturbs the balance of track
space assignments. The track is 135' long. That fits three
trolley cars at 45' a piece (the average car is between 42
and 46 feet). Usual assignment: two 46.5' cranes and the 37'
Rhode Island car 1504. With 6688 in there, it comes out to exactly
135'. To put 1689 in, you'd have the awkward number of 74.5'
left over, which means filling in with some single-truck cars
to use up the space evenly, which then introduces a chain reaction
of track space shuffles.
Oh rocket science required to make the best use of barn space ... i'm impressed. And I thought the cars were just randomly put away.
Mr t__:^)
How did you get into that yard? Isn't there an MTA guard sitting in a car by the gate?
Apparently you are unfamiliar with the Bush Terminal area. The cars in question were sitting in the freight transfer yard of New York Cross Harbor Railroad which is in the industrial park area. It is not an MTA facility. The railroad is a privately owned shortline that came about when the Bush Terminal Railroad went belly up The NYCH is actually both Bush Terminal and New York Dock Railway combined.
The subway cars were bought at scrap prices by Naporano, a famous railcar scrap company in Port Newark.
As a matter of fact, the cars left the NYCH property earlier today, so the window of opportunity for those who wanted to see the cars up-close was indeed very short. I'm glad that Lou from Brooklyn, RIP142HopeTunnel and I were able to get over there on Saturday.
BMTman
The BMTman makes a point, i.e. as a GOOD railfan we wouldn't try to get past a locked gate or over a chain linked fence. A road comes right up to the yard in question, so he & friends weren't trespassing. He has also gone out of his way to introduce himself to the staff of NYCHRR. The Monday I tagged along our first stop was the office where we said good morning to everyone. A previous time on a "Field Trip" we wanted to get inside the Brooklyn Army Terminal (this he did with a group in 1999). But the staff said no this day, so we went on our way.
Mr t__:^)
Here is a NEW Hot Times I just pulled off my e-mail. It involves intra-railroad disipline prodeedures. Enjoy.
**********************************************************************
Today, How one word can mean a difference
Back in 95 while doing the Trainmaster thing on the IHB, I was
working nights at Blue Island Yard. Being that the grand plan to
switch autos at Gibson was failing miserably, the powers
that be were sending auto trains to Blue to be switched. This
took up much of the west yard and also the Blue Island
Running Track.
The Blue Island Running track was akin a main track once upon a
time, like a time there were not autos to be switched at Blue.
At this moment though, it was nothing more than a parking
lot for auto trains. Being that this was the only through track
bypass of the yard, trains parked on it essentially took it
away from the Dispatchers. Instead, all through trains had to
operate through Blue Island yard itself instead of around it.
How is this for an efficient operation? As a result, this meant
we always had to keep a track in either the north or south
receiving/departure yards (or both) clear to allow use as a
runner. Needless to say, this really put a crimp in the
already jammed up operations. Tonight would be no
exception.
We were working, or at least attempting to work around this by
handling trains through the yard. This required that we
would have to stop some of the operation to let trains
through. Kind of defeats the purpose of a yard, but then, I
was only a Trainmaster and what did I know? We had more
important things to worry about like cutting costs and
reducing the operating ratio. Ya, like we're really going to
effectively accomplish this by operating dozens of trains a
day through the yard instead of around it.
This particular night had us handling numerous trains through the
yard which seemed to be what was becoming the norm. We
had a Soo Line 240 train that was working its way down the
south hump lead and through the south receiving/departure
yard with a plan to run them out 9 Lead to Indiana Ave,
around the wye at Dolton Jct and onto UP tracks. While this
was a very slow undertaking for the train, the crew was very
slowly and surely accomplishing this feat. Being that the Soo
Line crews out of Latta were accustomed to slow running
and getting screwed everywhere they operated, they were
probably not the least bit fazed by this routing.
When they reached the east end of their running track, 6 in the
south if I recall correctly, the had to wait for several yard
moves to clear before it was their turn. When the 2230 job
cleared into 2 in the south, it was 240's turn. They came out,
worked their way up the lead, headed out 9 Lead and
eventually went around the wye to the UP. Sounds harmless
enough right? Well, apparently, it was not.
After 240 had cleared up at Halsted Street where the east end of
the south yard was located, the 2230 job had to come back
out and do some work. The Conductor called the
Yardmaster and tells him that the lead switch for tracks 1
and 2 south has been run through and cannot be lined for
his movement. A run through switch is one that a trailing
point or away from the direction the points face move was
made through the switch when the switch was not properly
lined for their move. Some switches are designed that
should this occur, the points will flop over and line for the
move without damaging the switch. These type of switches
are referred to as rubber switches or flop over switches.
Their technical name is automatic switch. Most railroads do
not allow run through moves on other than spring switches,
except at certain designated locations. IHB had none of
these type of switches on the property.
The Yardmaster notified me and I immediately contact the Acting
Transportation Supervisor at Gibson to see how they
wanted me to handle this situation. Being that 240 was the
last move right before the 2230 job came back out, it was
highly likely that they were the culprits. The IHB had a policy
that required the entire crew to be drug tested for such an
infraction. I discovered this when I failed to test an IHB crew
for the very same offense a few weeks earlier and as a
result, got my ass chewed big time. I told them after the
chewing that nobody had bothered to mention this policy to
me and I had no clue as to this or most any other policy as
there was no reference manual available to refer to in these
situations.
So here I am with a decision to make. Being that the situation
involved a foreign line crew, I wanted advice in exactly how
to handle this. I figured I would toss it into their laps and let
them call the shots. This takes the onus off me if they screw
it up. The powers that be decided to make sure 240 was off
our railroad and onto UP trackage, and only then have me
call their folks down in Central Indiana to let them know of
this hideous offense. This meant the Soo Line would have to
obtain (and pay for) the drug tests.
I call Dolton and instruct the Operator there to notify me as soon as
240 clears the IHB. A short time later, he calls with the
departure time. I then contact the Soo Line Dispatcher at
Spring Hill, Indiana and notify him of the infraction and also
inform him that the IHB wants the crew tested. He
acknowledges and the games begin. This guy sounded like
he knew what was going on here as 240 sat at Dolton for
awhile before getting on UP rails. Obviously a true veteran
of railroad politics.
In the meantime, we had to call out the Track Department as the
switch had been damaged by the run through. Normally, the
bridle bar and switch rod take the brunt of the damage when
the switch is run through. This can usually be repaired in
very short order. Being that the yard was already plugged
and being used for through operations, it was not to be
tonight. No sir, we couldn't have bent parts, we got the
broken parts. This really screwed up the operation. I went
down and with a little assistance, managed to get the switch
spiked for the lead. At least we could use the lead, but could
not get into the east end of one and two in the south.
An investigation was scheduled for the Soo Line crew that was
allegedly the perpetrator of this crime. The investigation
would be conducted at the yard office at Van Yard in Terre
Haute, IN. Even though it happened in IHB property, the
investigation would be held on home rails. This provision is
mandated under their collective bargaining agreement. I was
to attend and participate as a witness for the IHB. As it
would happen, there was a staff meeting that morning at
Blue Island that required my attendance. As it would also
happen, this was my day off as well. Ah yes, the joys of
being on salary and being a company official. I attended the
meeting until it was time for me to make the 175 or so mile
journey from Blue Island to Terre Haute.
I arrived at Van Yard and met Soo Line Trainmaster Jay Schultz.
We exchanged pleasantries. We then discussed what had
allegedly happened that fateful evening and prepared for
the fair and impartial investigation.
The investigation began with all of the charged read into the record
as being in attendance, all witnesses (just myself) read into
the record as in attendance, the charges of the alleged
violation being read for entry into the record, Jay Schultz
read in as the investigating officer, and those in attendance
as representation for the charged likewise, read into the
record. We didn't have a stenographer in attendance, we
had a tape recorder. At a later time, the tape would be
transcribed by a stenographer and presented to Soo Line
officials to read and determine whether or not the charges
had merit and if the crew should be disciplined or
exonerated. The tape recorder has been referred to over
the years as "Mr Microphone." Should you get in trouble,
you get the opportunity to appear before Mr Microphone.
So now we are officially under way. The first question is directed to
me from the Local Chairman representing the Engineer of
240. He asks me to point out the location of 1 lead on a map
he had of Blue Island Yard. I graciously pointed out its
location to him. For the record, 1 lead is on the north side of
the East Yard at Blue, and 9 lead and the South Yard are at
the south side of Blue. This immediately had me wondering
what was going wrong here. He then proceeded to re-read
aloud the charges from the letter calling us all to this little
soiree. They stated "the one lead switch at Blue Island Yard.
Oh oh, this whole investigation is about to get flushed right
down the toilet. I was then asked to point out where 9 Lead
was located and where 240 was operating on the night in
question. The hand is now on the flush handle. I pointed this
out to him as well. Now, he comes in for the kill. At this
moment, I suddenly feel like a criminal on "Law and Order"
with Ben Stone about to swoop down on me with the
damning evidence to get a guilty verdict.
"The charges state the crew of 240 ran though the One Lead
switch. Is it your testimony that they were never even on
One Lead during the course of their journey through Blue
Island Yard that evening?"
Ow, there it goes, the hand pushes the handle and the toilet is
starting to flush. Suddenly, an old TV commercial comes to
mind and I suddenly start hearing that little ditty "We put the
lemon in the Tidy Bowl for you, the lemon in the Tidy Bowl
for you" bouncing around my brain.
"Yes that is correct, 240 was never on One Lead during their
journey through Blue Island Yard that evening."
With that, he asked for an immediate dismissal of all charges and
that the investigation be canceled. Being that the charges
did not fit the crime, they were not guilty by a technicality.
Sort of like a murderer walking because they spelled his
name wrong on the warrant and all ensuing paperwork.
What the charges should have read was "the one and lead
switch on Nine Lead." This was huge and he had us over a
barrel.
Jay Schultz called for a recess and the two of us headed to his
office. He got on the phone and called Gateway Division
Superintendent Dan Lyons for advice. As it would happen,
Dan was out hyrailing on the former Milwaukee Road up in
Wisconsin with some big wigs from CP in Canada. So the
page goes out and we await his call back. A few minutes
later, the call comes. Jay has it on speaker so that we can
both participate. We all discussed the ramifications of the
error in the charges and it is agreed, it would not be a fair
and impartial investigation as a result and thus, all charges
should be dropped and the investigation canceled. After the
phone conversation ended, Jay apologized saying that he
should have checked the letter that called for the
investigation much closer before he authorized it to be sent
out.
So let us review the events of the day thus far; I get up at 0600
after getting home from work the evening before well after
midnight to attend a less than exciting staff meeting at Blue
Island, drive two and a half hours to Terre Haute for an
investigation that has lasted all of ten minutes and it is my
day off. Am I upset?
"Pins and needles, needles and pins. A happy man is a man that
grins. Now what am I angry about?" It worked about as well
for me as it did for Ralph Kramden on "The Honeymooners."
So Jay and I return to the conference room and he announces that
the charges are dropped, the investigation is canceled and
everybody should go home, be happy and stay safe. Jay
and I went back to his office and discussed the error in the
letter. He could not apologize enough for the events that
transpired this day. So, he attempted to make it up somehow
by offering to by my lunch and then giving me a grand tour
of the operations there. Well, I've driven this far, my day off
is shot and being that I really didn't know much about the
operations on the Soo in Indiana and wanted to learn, I
jumped at the chance. And besides, I live by the creedo that
I never pass up on free food, free booze or shiny new dimes.
We had a nice lunch at some fine eating establishment in Terre
Haute, discussed railroading, the effects of the strike in 94
when the UTU walked out for several weeks, employment
opportunities (never missed a chance to see what others
had to offer) and ate a great meal. We then toured the
facilities and Jay explained past and present operations. We
saw the remnants of the Terre Haute Belt, the location of the
old division headquarters, Spring Hill Tower and a tour
through it, and some of the industries in the Terre Haute
area. He also showed me the connection used to reach
Conrail trackage the Milwaukee and later Soo Line used to
connect the old Southeastern to Chicago. I was also shown
Conrail's yard and CSX's yard in town and the remnants of
the Terre Haute, Brazil and Eastern Railroad as well. We
were about to head to Latta, which is actually the little
community of Jasonville, where the main hub of operations
and engine house were located. However while enroute, he
got a call to return to Van Yard as there was a problem that
needed his immediate attention.
Back at Van, Jay addressed his problems and had his trusty
assistant prepare a host of parting gifts for me. For my
efforts, I received a very nice travel coffee mug, a couple of
CP Rail calendars, a current timetable, a map of rail lines,
coal mines and power plants in Central and Southern
Indiana, a couple of photos of Soo Line motive power and a
surprise. While Jay's assistant (a nice fellow from Ashland,
Wisconsin whose name I cannot recall at all) was gathering
up the goodies from the supply room, I spied an IHB marker
on the floor. It was one of the Starlight brand low tech
models that was commonly referred to as a "dumb FRED" as
it was not a telemetry. I pointed out that this was one of mine
and asked if I could have it back and take it home. We were
perenially short of markers at Blue Island, so here was a
chance to bring one back home. They graciously even
loaded it into the back of my trusty Ranger for me.
As it was getting late, I figured it was too late to make a run to
Latta. So we all said our good-byes and I headed north back
home to Schererville and at least an evening off with the
beautiful bride.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Joe Malinconico has an article in Sunday's Star-Ledger pointing out that NJT proposed solutions to ameliorate fiasco conditions and Amtrak vetoed them.
NJT likes to blame other railroads to make them (NJT) look like the innocent victim and the other guy is cast as villain. Many of NJT's cars are old and need replacement but NJT spends money on parkign lots, parking garages and lighted NJT logos on the side of the parking garages.
I dont buy their story-- weekend service is especially bad and there are fewer trains on weekends from all railroads using the Northeast Corridor.
NJT should stop smoke and mirror tricks and admit mismanagement.
NJT has ordered the Comet V and is GOH'ing Comet IIs. Half the new order is control cabs, and after the GOH the CIIs will all become trailers. This will not replace but augment the current fleet.
>NJT should stop smoke and mirror tricks and admit mismanagement.
And Amtrak should learn how to run a RR. "The busiest Corridor in the world"? No. A few trains an hour isn't busy. One every 90 seconds is. NJT isn't perfect, but Amtrak's running of the NEC is less so. Any little thing that goes wrong, and they scramble. When the last MN wire snag happened the other week, MN hit the ground running - arranging for diesel service on the NH line, stacking up and turning trains at Stamford, and getting the mess cleaned up. I got stuck in Queens while amtrak tried to figure out what to do. They're like a dog chasing a car, the dog's at a loss as to what to do when he catches the car.
First, they figured they'd pull us back to Penn. so they grabbed an AEM-7, had it 6 feet from the back of the train, ready to roll. Then, someone got the brilliant idea of hooking a diesel to the front of the train. So, the AEM-7 rolled back to the yard, and they went looking for a diesel. Well, after 45 min of looking, they found one. Uh oh. It's rush hour. So now they have to get this thing over to us. Through Harold. Durring the rush. Well, by the time they got the diesel over to us - guess what? MN said to come on up - with the electric. So we rolled off to New Rochelle, under electric. The diesel went back in wherever diesels go...
Great, we sat for 1 1/2 hours, on a turn, in the middle of nowhere. They pulled not one, but TWO locomotives out to rescue us. Then sent us on our way. And put those locos back. Brilliant use of resources and manpower - why didn't they just run the locomotive we already had over to the back of the train and pull us to Penn? Because they're morons, that's why. any idiot could tell you a wire snag that stops ALL service isn't going to be cleaned up any time soon - and I'd much rather sit in Penn where I can go get some dinner.
Anything goes wrong., Amtrak's at a total loss as to what to do.
As far as new equipment, NJT has quite a few electrics on order, not to mention quite a few cars on order too. I agree their customer relations suck, but you expected more from an ex-prr operation?
Funny, Phillipputs down the former PRR, which in it s time was the best run Railroad in the country
He's probably a New York Central or New York, New Haven and Hartford fan. They're always a bit dodgey.
Nah, not a NY Central fan, I'm more of an NH person. The PRR's electrification, and a lot of their engieering, etc, was nice, but the NH beat them to it with both electrics and diesels. The PRR couldn't design a decent electric if ther lives depeded on it. So they went off an borrowed an EP-3 from the New haven, and ripped off the 2-C+C-2 wheelbase. I'll admit the PRR had better industrial design though :)
Anyway, the New haven was also first to deploy rectifer MUs (Washboards), rectifier locomotives in regular service (EP-5), dual mode (FL-9), multivoltage (EP-1), dual use diesels (DL-109), and made generous use of RDCs.
Oh yeah, and the PRR's commuter services generally sucked, and IIRC, they had to be draged kicking and screaming into the Metroliner thing.
Don't get me started on their running of the LIRR, which was a blessing and a curse.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the New Haven ripped off the 2-C+C-2 arrangement from the New York Central's P motors that worked out of Cleveland Union Terminal. IF you recall they were like 2500hp and ran off of 3000VDC overhead. Central fans will go on and on about that until you have to smack 'em.
BTW the PRR was the first to standardize air brakes, automatic couplers and cab signals. They used the heaviest rail, built the fastest and most powerful steam locomotives ever (S1 and Q2), uses hi quality Union Switch and Signal position light and electro-penumatic equipent (NH went with GRS and semaphores).
they had to be draged kicking and screaming into the Metroliner thing.
Yeah, they were smart.
>Yeah, they were smart.
Oh please. If it weren't for the Metroliner, the NEC would be a single tracked, unelectrified, unused freight line below Philly, the GG-1s would have been scrapped in the 70's, there'd be no Acela, and probbably no Amtrak. And no talk of reviving intercity rail in the US at all. It was the metroliner, as crappy as it was, that reversed a 15 year decline in ridership and started getting people excited about trains again. And, of course, the typical short minded, stupid management types at other US RRs (and the Penn Central also, for that matter), couldn't figure out that people were flocking away from trains because they were slow and shitty, and did nothing but sit on their butts watching ridership plumet. By the late 60's, airlines weren't flying 30's vintage planes, bus companies weren't running 30's vintage busses, and few people drove 30's vintage cars. But the railroads were running 30's vintage trains. And the PRR's commuter fleet was old, and the LIRR's even older.
The Metroliner probbably saved the NEC from becomming a footnote in transportation history.
Of course, Amtrak, being no smarter than the idiots it replaced, can't seem to put 2 and 2 together and realize that their highest ridership is occuring on their fastest trains.
With the attitudes railroads had (and Amtrak still has) towards passenger service, it's no wonder intercity rail is dead in the US....
This past week, I saw the two transfer sets on the IRT.
1. The R33's on the 4 that was transferred from the 2 line. All cars had the Jerome Stickers. 8838-8839 were the head cars southbound.
2. R62a's 1661-1665 on the 1 line. These cars had the 240St Yard stickers on them as well. Lead cars northbound pulling into 242-VC.
1661-70 have been transferred from Pelham to 240th Street. 1666-70 are in the shop at 207th Street.
8836-55 have been transferred from the 2 to the 4. These are probably here to fill in for the cars involved in the Fordham Collision; speaking of which, 1361-65 are getting worked on at present time.
-Stef
That explains why I was on #1664 on the #1. Why the transfer of the Pelham trains to the #1? Are they short trains?
I know they gave #2141-2155 to the #3 a while back.
It seemed wierd. But the train was clean and the "Strip sign" inside had been changed to reflect #1 destinations.
flx7595
I don't know what the reasoning is behind this. But one could easily assume that if the Pelham Cars don't go to Flushing as planned, just MAYBE we could see the R-62A fleet divided with half the cars going to the 1 and the remainder going to the 3, with the 6 being entirely R-142A.
-Stef
Geez, I'll be estatic when I stumble in here and read some rabid post about the last Red Vulture being pulled from service and scrapped! I'm sure that post will include some type of anti-R142 comments and other anti-technology crap.
I mean my god, these cars are over 40 years old! Let them go! You people are being really greedy. Us bus fans don't even get to have our favorite buses around for 20 years most times, let alone 42! The cars are nearly falling apart, don't some of you understand that that is DANGEROUS!!!!!?????
Here's a little anlysis I've worked up over the past day or so as well. The average a TA will let a bus last is about 15 years (no, not the FTA standard of 12), but subway cars usually last about 30 years. Now, an RTS bus can last about 20 years (actually more) and a Red Vulture has lasted a little over 40. Now, let's make a comparison shall we...
In a good maintenence environment, an RTS can last 20 years without cracking frames, constant breakdown, and small annoyances such as doors not working. However, since most rail vehicles can last twice as long as a road vehicle, a Red Vulture should be equal to an RTS bus in quality and durability. It's not. The Red Vultures are eqivalent to a 20 year old RTS. But, instead of being mechanically sound, they are rusting away, basically like a Flxible. If you know anything about buses, Flxibles were second rate buses all of the time. So basically, the "first rate" cars you all are pining over are equivalent not to the best bus, but to a second rate Flxible. Of course, it could just be bad maintenence, but, I doubt that.
See, the Red Vultures aren't what you thought they were. They're what I think they are though, old, rusty, dangerous, obsolete, worn out, and should have been retired five years ago. Get used to the R 142s, you'll have to deal with them until at least 2030. And stop reporting EVERY little thing you see wrong with an R-142.
"Oh my, the breaks whine! These things suck!"
"We didn't leave that woman behind fast enough! These things are slow!"
"There's gum on the floor! Scrap these things!"
I bet if many of you scrutanized a Red Vulture the wat you do an R-142, you'd find TONS of things wrong with it.
Just try to think about these things that next time you want to post yet another anti-R142 rant.
I guess you are unaware that most, if not all, Redbirds will not be scrapped. They will be used as underwater reefs for fish and other underwater life. Personally, I feel this is simply ocean dumping, a scheme for the TA to avoid having to remove asbestos from these since nobody would cut them up otherwise.
I have been informed by a very reliable source that the asbestos WOULD have to be removed from the cars before they are sunk into the water. Of course, fluids, air conditioning gasses and the like would have to be removed as well.
OK, lemme stir the pot ... some of you know where I live now but that don't mean you can GET here. (grin) The following is offered with tongue so deeply in cheek, I've grown another head ...
"They're dumping them off Joisey! Who'd notice the extra sludge?"
Now I've cheesed off most everybody ... zman can walk now. :)
"They're dumping them off Joisey! Who'd notice the extra sludge?"
Yes, New York does tend to like to dump its garbage along our coast...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(In a good maintenence environment, an RTS can last 20 years without cracking frames, constant breakdown, and small annoyances such as doors not working.)
Perhaps this should be on bustalk, but I had heard that since (like the Redbirds) they are not stainless steel, the RTS frames are rotting and rusting. Too bad, because the bond panels are still OK.
I think the TA is now assuming a 40 year life for its cars. They'll have to last that long (or longer) in any event, given the debt in this MTA capital plan.
I could not agree with you more! This R142/A double standard needs to stop right now. You know how many times I've been on Redbird trains that have gone out of service or had faulty lighting or no heat or no A/C or graffitti or squealed or smelled like burning rubber? But you don't me complaining about it over and over again. I don't get all bent out of shape when I see the rollsigns on the Redbirds with the wrong destination or route on them. Big deal if the automated announcements or the time on the R142/A's is off. Who cares if the brakes and the motors whine? All you R142/A-haters need to shut up and get a life! I like my R142s on my #2 train and I wanna see more of them there NOW! I for one will not miss the Stinkybirds when they're gone!
HeyPaul and Salaam, the two Subtalkers most often the subject of humor, decided that it seemed that just one of them should be the brunt of the alleged humor on Subtalk. It was decided that a team led by HeyPaul would challange a team led by our own fearless salaam in the Firs Annual "Subtalk SuperBowl". They decided that they would play the game on the morning preceeding the Superbowl at a site midway between Pasadena (salaam's turf) and Brooklyn, (heypauls home town). After heypaul was unable to convince salaam that Lincoln High field was halfway between the two cities, Salaam shrewdly settled on a vacant lot in Newark, NJ.
So this morning at 10:00 AM the kickoff took place. Heypaul's team received the kickoff when salaam fell for that trick coin heypaul has with tails on both sides. It was a hard-fought battle and midway through the the 4th quarter, it was still a scoreless battle. Salaam's team had the ball and was driving with just 3 minutes to go. Unfortunately, a passing NJ transit train blew its whistle. Heypauls team, thinking the game was over, ran off the field. Four plays later, with time running out, salaam's team missed the winning field-goal.
So, until the game can be re-played, it's open season on both.
GO BIG BLUE
Sure ain't no Bob Murphy..
Or Chris Schenkel, for that matter. I've heard a variation on that joke before.
I'd much rather a Subtalk Superbowl ... I'm dead on hours so am headed off to bed ... would have watched it, but it's in FLORIDA. I'm not going to sit through the wee hours of the night while the score is recounted and the lawsuits go back and forth with the Supreme Court deciding the game. Not gonna do it ... wouldn't be prudent. Not at this JUNCTURE ...
Whoop! Cab's here! :)
The Cab? Where are you posting this from? I think its against FRA regulations to engage in railfan activities when your dead on hours.
No ... no NTSB ... no no no - no!
Safely ensconced at home ... just don't ask me to whiz in a bottle. I'll miss. So far, the GI-ANTS are losing - call in the Supremes! Maybe we can have some judges run out the clock on the game. :)
Well, SelkirkTMO could be like heypaul -- where a cab can reside in your apartment! :-)
BMTman
Heh. There *is* room here for that - though I'd much rather have the entire car given my options. :)
Steve, you got me ROTFLMAO!!!
GOOD ONE!(Are you joining the avid reader league?)
BMTman
where the hell is LINCOLN FIELD?? where the nebraska cornhuskers play etc? ""go big red""!! ( I saw it from the greyhound station there )
as for the rest of the post it does seem to drift way OFF TOPIC ( typical ) today we shot video here of our drum section pratice to defend our first place finish in the parade we won first place last year!! before this post drifts too far off topic i will say i found this years superdudbowl to be very BORING & i fell asleep on it! Poor Giants!!!
Finally i would like to thank our webmaster Mr David Pirmann for posting some of the still shots i took this & last year with my sony DSCS30 digital still camera which makes taking RAIL TRANSIT PHOTOGRAPHY ( now we are back on topic ) a enjoyable thing to do!!
as for you subtalk-superbowl etc.. I do not see your point !!
Sorry but what the point in this anyway & why etc ...?????!!!!!
MY GOODNESS, you have absolutely no sense of humor.
man give me a break mr "royal island oink"!!
Yo Salmai,
THAT WAS A JOKE, Jay Oh Kay EEEEE!! JOKE!!
where the hell is LINCOLN FIELD?? I would beleive this is a reference to Abe Lincoln High School and the Athletic Field located behind it, both in/near the Coney Island/Brighton Beach Area Brooklyn NY USA where Mr. HeyPaul is from.
Does the scoreboard there have a scrolling message screen?:-)
no! especially these off topic posts!
go eat your own maggot infested BALONEY cold cuts !
Sorry that wouldn't be Kosher...
If you get kicks out of people eating bug infested products, you better tune to CBS' Survivor where they eat bug infested Dates.
lou from brooklyn i would like to take a big pass on that one please !!!
OFF Topic
wrong !!
Poor Giants!!!
Oh, piffle. The Ravens defense shut down the Giants, just like they did to every other team in the playoffs.
There was nothing the Giants could do against overwhelming odds.
Just like the R-142's will vanquish the Redbirds.
i agree with you on the giants'
your 142s however are loaded with trouble yet to come !!
" aint no bird like a redbird & they dont build subway cars like used to anymore"!!!
Salaam, I apologize. It appears that I overestimated your sense of humor, your knowledge of football and your knowledge of NYC geography. Actually, Lincoln Field is near the Belt Parkway, within sight of Coney Island yard, in Brooklyn - half way between NYC and Pasadena. By the way, the post was not off-topic. NJ Transit was mentioned and was key to the story.
My misunderstanding was that there is this field called ""lincoln field""
home of the nebraska "" go big red"" cornhuskers, etc.. maybe they changed the name of this sports stadium.
I do remember rigley filed in yes, los angels california etc.. home of the los angeles angels
( this is when the LARy narrow gauge ""yellow cars" & the PCC trolley cars were running, along with the wonderful PE. system.
You can se them on my yahoo photos
and the link to the site DAVES ELECTRIC RAILROADS..the link is on this site as well
my photos of the survivors are ..
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
when i was about 6 years old i saw the ebbits field which had a intimate look to it !! only to see the los angeles coliseum the new home of the los angeles dodgers then chavez ravine when it opened up for the first time with maury wills 104 stolen bases etc.. however i was not happy in that august 1959 when my mother sent me away to los angeles after she divorced my dad, & away from what i loved the most the subway in nyc & especially the r-1 -r-9s low vs & the first "r" train that ran on the flushing line !
it was not very nice to see the rail systems being torn up in los angeles county back in 1962 etc..... now i go to the orange empire museum to get some relief from what was done to our rail transit systems etc............. one hell of a post isnt this ??
Los Angeles is the "prime example" of the damage NCL (and the NCL-like hangers-on) could do. LAMTA was the follower, and LATL was firmly in the NCL camp. Just like Baltimore, when the public agency took over, 98% of the management stayed with new agency, only the top officers left, so little changed for quite a while.
Our local joke after the MTA took over here, was "what do you get if you peel the MTA sticker off? BTC!!!"
oh well !! i did see the sticker "MTA" on the museum trolley fleet at the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM in peris california the largest transit museum in the western united states. I did not even know before then that the transit agency was called "MTA" before the name "RTD" was used for our FAILED transit agency here !!!
Yea!! pell the label off ! & make my day !!
I was referring to our MTA in Baltimore. When the MTA here took over, they put a black MTA sticker over the BTC emblem. Thus the joke. Orange Empire has each of its 3 PCC's painted in each of the paint schemes used in LA. 3001 is LARY, 3100 is LATL and 3165 is LAMTA. AFAIK, the LAMTA emblem was a decal, not a stick-on.
In other words, 3001 is two-tone yellow; 3100 has the fruit salad scheme, and 3165 is two-tone green. Or am I way off base?
yep !!
There is a publicity photo of Shirley Temple posing in front of a brand new 3001 along with, IIRC, the mayor of LA. The only bummer is that it's in b/w, so you don't get to see the two-tone yellow paint scheme.
Not all of LA's PCCs received the two-tone green LAMTA paint scheme. Some remained decked out in fruit salad colors until the end of operation in 1963. I have a 1991 LA calendar with a 1963 photo of a P-3 car whose number I don't recall with the fruit salad scheme.
sorry about that ! while you are on the subject the "MTA" emblem is going to be custom re-painted on most of the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUMS LARy narrow gauge cars in thier museum fleet. It is a custom made identical emblem to match the original
In thier shops & all etc, are the re-creations of all the lettering numbers & emblems & they take good care to see to it that it is as close to the original as possible.
By the way how many ""MTAs"" are there ???
thanks you can se my photos of them on
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
sorry about that ! while you are on the subject the "MTA" emblem is going to be custom re-painted on most of the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUMS LARy narrow gauge cars in thier museum fleet. It is a custom made identical emblem to match the original as possible.
In thier shops & all etc, are the re-creations of all the lettering numbers & emblems & they take good care to see to it that it is as close to the original as possible.
By the way how many ""MTAs"" are there ???
thanks you can see my photos of them on
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
Has antone else tried to read the Dec. Archives. It seems impossable to read any replys and will only read chronlogicly. All other Archives seem to read fine. if this is just me someone tell me how to fix it
That's because the threading info is no longer stored in individual messages. I hope to update the archives to use the database eventually but, as in all other things, time does not permit...
-Dave
Just out of curiousity, is there a way to search the SubTalk archives by keyword to find a specific posting? There was some tidbit of information that I found myself looking for that I knew was covered in a previous topic thread, but had to go page by page and manually search the subject lines. Is there a better way I could have done this?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Not right now. I had to take that out when converting to the database and I have not had time to put it back.
We were at Sutphin Blvd (Archer) station on Saturday and noticed that there is a water problem there, and a problem managing this water problem. Right near the main exit on the upper level there is a serious leak in the ceiling. A tarpaulin with an attached hose has been placed over it, and the hose leads to a drain in the mezzanine. However there was a problem with this drain - it was either clogged or was accepting too much water cause it overflowed and the water ran right back out onto the mezzanine floor where it seeped through a crack and was sent dripping onto the platform below. And there's another leak further down which is dripping onto the escalator from the "J". Looks like it has shorted out the ceiling light near it. I am not sure if there is a water main or storm sewer problem under Archer Avenue, just west of Sutphin Boulevard. In any case, they should CALL THE PLUMBERS! Water damage in a station that isn't even 15 years old - not good!
wayne
Nothing to worry about; Chambers St has 75 years on that station and it's still OK :D
There seems to be a leak near the front of the S/B express platform at 34th and 6th, there's a bit of a puddle there. Subways seem to leak more in winter, I guess from melting snow.
Sounds like a job for Drain Dude
Maybe when he was working the Jamaica yard, but he only handles Concoruse leaks now :-)
Another altercation between a person and a SEPTA rail train occurred yeaterday at the Daylesford (R5) station, this one fatal. The deceased was a 32 year old emotionally distraught woman. Investigation in progress. Story in Sunday's Inkie.
From Kings Highway (and possibly ave X) to 18 Ave there are red signs saying CAUTION TEST TRACK AREA identical to the ones on the Dyre. Is this a test area for CBTC, along with the Rockaway line?
No, during selected daytime hours under a G.O., the TA does emergency brake testing on a pre-determined contract model of equipment. They pull a train at random. They would place a portable trip along the stretch where the train would be going top speed. Then when the train hits the trip and goes BIE, they measure how far the train traveled before it comes to a complete stop.
The test area for the CBTC on the F line is B4 track from Church Ave to either 7 Ave station or north of the station. This is the northbound express track. If you ride to 7 Ave, get off and you can see the equipment on the columns and in between the running rails.
I got an old scanner lying around, which should be able to pick up the NYC subway frequencies. So, where can I find out the NYCS radio channels? Funny I have two Radio Shack handheld scanners, one is 6 years old the other is 9 years old, yet the 6 year old one broke first! Funny isn't it!!! (and I can't afford a new one, they are more expensive now then they were back then!)
http://www.panix.com/~clay/scanning/frequencies/nycta.shtml
it was in the transfer station part of this website. look around harder next time....
OK, Thanks!
Just thought I'd let the R-142 "look-out crew" know that I met the C.O.O. of New York & Atlantic at a Community Board meeting in Brooklyn last week (it was a follow-up meeting on the $30 Million Bay Ridge Line cleanup).
Of interest here is that I asked him what the schedule for R-142 deliveries will be and he said that currently -- and unless there are some problems in production -- CP will be delivering to Fresh Pond on Thursday evenings, which will have his railroad making moves of the R-142's to Linden Shops on Fridays. I would assume that NYCT would move the cars that evening or sometime the following day up to The Bronx.
Another question I popped on him was this interesting query: 'since your railroad makes the deliveries of the new cars to NYCT have you considered acquring any of the Redbird cars that they are replacing as rider cars or cabooses? His answer: He already discussed it with the NY&A President and the reply was 'no' -- due to the question of the asbestos equation. (I told him jokingly that if they were to get some Redbirds for their line, they could go and paint them in the NY&A color scheme and refer to them as Greenbirds!)
Thought you guys would find this of interest.
BMTman
Well, CP usually delivers the cars in the middle of the night. Here, here, we still have a long ways to go before this shipment is complete.
-Stef
A new virtual tour has been added to www.oldNYC.com: The New York Central High Line. The virtual tour explores and reviews the various buildings, spurs, sidings, and trestles that are found along the High Line's right-of-way.
Also for railfans, the virtual tour of The Route of the Planned Cross-Brooklyn Expressway at www.oldNYC.com, contains over 100 pictures of the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch right-of-way. Pictures cover the ROW from the Gowanus Expressway to New Lots Avenue.
Tom Scannello
www.oldNYC.com
tom... i've looked at about half of the shots of the high line and just wanted to thank you for a really great job...
Tom,
You've got a great site, I've spent all morning looking at the West Side railroad pages. However just a small nit pick, everywhere you use the word "raised" you mean "razed". I wouldn't point it out if it were a simple spelling error but those words are completely opposite from each other :-)
Good job!
Dave
Dave,
Yikes.. you are write! (kidding... right!)... I'll make the changes tonight.
Also, thanks for the compliment.
Tom
www.OldNYC.com
dave... the spelling error was a very minor error...i'm really surprised that you razed the issue...
KUDOS,KUDOS,KUDOS
I use to run around that area in my late twenties and always wondered "Whats down there or up there. It would make for an excellant cross town compliment to the "G" . From Bayridge to Roosefelt Ave terminal with connections to the "L","NEWLOTS","J & Z" "M" and finally "E,F,R & V" and everything west of Flatbush Avenue.
Well Done , and waiting for more!
avid
I assume the BMTman will remind us that the boro of Brooklyn made this part of a plan, i.e. a cross-town subway AND you don't even need a chain saw to re-open the ROW (Rockaway line). The only problem is that the NIMBYs throw rocks & bricks.
Mr t__:^)
Think about it.
You'r on a hippo, skimming along on welded rail fixed to cement ties. The silence breath taking. An occasional clickty-clack every 400 ft. or near the block signals. A great view of greenery boardering the cut. The T.O. occasional toots his horn to children waving from the parks and playgrounds boarding the Right of Way.
Zipping along at a real speed, because the grade is gentle and the curves are long. A multitude of options gives you almost all of Kings and Queens county with your METROCARD. The City is at your feet. A entrance to the world has opened up to traveler and to those who will do community service to keep the Right Of Way clean.
Welcome to the Twenty First Century!
Running time 28 MINs.
avid
Tom,
By the way, if you know anyone in those organizations who aim to preserve the line, maybe they can hook you up with permission to go up there and photograph the viaducts from up top? :-)
-Dave
I'm thinking about how to get to work at the TA rush hours and I wonder, what's the quickest way there? The obvious would be the E to 42 to the A, but in light of recent poor service on Queens Blvd (40 mins to Manh) I wonder about the options. Would a swing back to Sutphin/Archer to the J/Z be better, or what about the G instead of the Manhattan trek? I'm mainly concerned with the AM rush hr & I just wanted some ideas from the riding public & enthusiasts. Any constructive comments or suggestions are appreciated. Thanx.
The J/Z is slow with somewhat long headways, but I don't think it has too many delays.
In my experience, staying on the F has been slightly faster than the G, so transferring to the F at Union Tpke could be the way to go. The J to the A at Broadway Junction may be better, but I've never tried that, so I couldn't tell you.
Take the Van Wyck Expressway up to the Jackie Robinson (Interborough to all NYers) Parkway and take it to exit 1, Bushwick Avenue. From Bushwick Avenue, turn left onto Eastern Parkway Extension, turn right from Eastern Parkway onto Atlantic Avenue, turn right onto Boerum Place, then right onto Willoughby Street.
Pork, I would take Bushwick to DeKalb and take DeKalb all the way downtown. Its one way with staggered lights. Atlantic can be awfully crowded during rush hours. (By the way, if you are going to take Atlantic, don't take Bushwick & Eastern from the J. Robinson. Take the Pkway to the very end, go past the bus garage and get Atlantic by the ENY LIRR station. I think thats easier.)
The northbound Van Wyck doesn't connect with the Jackie Robinson/Interborough. For that, I guess you'd have to take Metropolitan Ave.
:-) Andrew
One other thing: The G is somewhat more direct than the F between Queens Plaza andBergen St, and there are fewer stops (14 on the G vs. 16 on the F), though it's certainly not "fast". But you have to catch a G, and their headways are long. And using the G from Jamaica/Forrest Hills involves the Queens Blvd. crapshoot, deciding between the local and express.
:-) Andrew
According to a friend of mine who lives in St. Albans and formerly worked at Jay St. (he's now over at 2 Broadway - the TA has space there now), the J/Z to Eastern Pkwy. then the A to Jay St. beats all other options. Now I'm only going on what he said - I've never actually done this myself. I worked the J line in the late '80s and can't really say I had many service problems over there.
Yeah, I'm thinking about that route because it's against the peak flow of traffic. But, my biggest concern is that connection at Broadway-East New York. I'm not crazy about being dressed up in a suit out there. I'd prefer fatigues. I'm open to all options though, especially a fast, reliable trip.
P.S. - If anyone can either correct or confirm my possibly outdated ideas about Broadway-ENY, please advise.
Yeah. That's what I would be concerned about to. Unlike many exagerated "bad" neighborhoods, where some parts are actually pretty good (Harlem, Bed Stuy), East New York/Brownsville really is pretty awful. But I would think that within the system it wouldn't be too bad during rush hour.
:-) Andrew
Spents some time out there canvassing neighborhoods for the census. Never had a problem. It was during daylight hours.
During the rush hour there are lots of other people on the J/Z in suits. It goes about a block a way from the World Trade Center. As for the transfer, plenty of witnesses construction workers thanks to the seemingly endless rehab of the complex.
But, my biggest concern is that connection at Broadway-East New York. I'm not crazy about being dressed up in a suit out there. I'd prefer fatigues. I'm open to all options though, especially a fast, reliable trip.
P.S. - If anyone can either correct or confirm my possibly outdated ideas about Broadway-ENY, please advise.
If that's the station I'm thinking of, there's a police station right in the station complex and cops around all the time.
Your perception is outdated. You'll be fine during the day, even into early evening.
--Mark
[...what about the G insead of the Manhattan trek?]
That's what I do. My 06:08 F (at Union Turnpike) meets a G at Queens Plaza at 06:25, and gets to Hoyt-Schermerhorn at 06:47.
The F not only has more stops (16 vs. 14) than the G but also is MUCH more vulnerable to the whims of train dispatchers who activate the holding lights at both 34th and W. 4th, thus delaying as many F riders as possible just to accommodate three people who might want to transfer from a B or D.
Unfortunately, once the G is cut back to Court Square, I'll have to stay on that F through Manhattan, BUT at least it will bypass the crowds at 53rd/Lex.
What about the Q10 (or other Queens bus) to Lefferts Blvd, then the A to Jay St?
--Mark
Story in Monday's Daily News.
Food for thought for those that think it's OK to to swipe someone in as they leave the system.
Mr t__:^)
Nothing wrong with that; the TA only has a problem if you're charging someone for that exit swipe.
Sure there's something wrong with swiping someone into the system as a "favor". It's no different from helping someone sneak in an exit gate.
From the MTA website:
"Restriction: Unlimited-Ride MetroCard cannot be used again at the same subway station or same bus route for 18 minutes. The acceptance or solicitation of compensation for use of an Unlimited Ride MetroCard by other than authorized agents of MTA New York City Transit is prohibited."
I'm sure more detailed regulations are published.
As long as 18 minutes have passed since the last use and no one is paying you for the privilege, exit swipe!
NYCTA Rule 1050.4(c) states:
"Except for employees of the authority acting within the scope of their employment, no person shall sell, provide, copy, reproduce or produce, or create any version of any fare media or otherwise authorize access to or use of the facilities, conveyances or services of the authority without the written permission of a representative of the authority duly authorized by the authority to grant such right to others."
The fact that a violation is not actively prosecuted does not render it de facto legal.
Put it this way--if someone were decide, say, that he wanted to give the riders at a particular subway station a day of free riding, and purchased a set of unlimited ride cards such that he could swipe everyone in (by rotating use of the cars over 18-minute cycles) the MTA would not ignore it.
Looked at a different way, if people were encouraged to play "Good Samaritan" and a culture of swiping people in were to take hold, it would lead to a fare increase, so everyone could pay for these people's "generosity."
Whatever happened to that guy who was advocating an exit swipe some years back? I he here under an assumed name or something?
He are. I only do it when I am dissatisfied with the service on my A.M. or P.M. commute.
If the MTA SCREWS UP. I fine them ONE FARE. Delays, dirty cars, annoying conductors, impudent agents.
GUILTY, FINED, ONE FARE!
avid
Thank you for clarifying the rule, although I still think that the TA's permission of transfer of possession of an unlimited ride Metrocard to another person could be considered "written permission." It's highly unlikely that a wave of generosity will come over all unlimited-ride card holders to the point that a significant number of fares are lost, and completely unthinkable that any one person would have the spare time and money to swipe people in all day with a collection of unlimited cards. I suppose the only test of the legality of swiping without compensation will be if someone is brought to court by the MTA.
When I exited the Rockaway Parkway station last night I gave away my Fun Pass to someone about to enter the system since it was good for the rest of the night (till midnight or 3am the following morning?).
I was just being a good a nice guy since I paid for the card and it still had time anyway. Was that a 'no-no'?
Hint: I did not sell it, merely gave it away, or otherwise I would have thrown it in the trash.
BMTman
No, that's legitimate under MTA rules.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> I gave away my Fun Pass to someone about to enter the system since it was good for the rest of the night <<<
The critical difference which makes what you did ok is that you gave away the card itself rather than a swipe, so that presumably only one person will be using the system with that card at one time. If you consider the fun pass as a transferable license for one person to use the system as much as possible until it expires, the transfer of the card is a transfer of the license. If you were to stand at a station swiping another person in every 18 minutes, there could be several people using the system at the same time on one card., and since you had not transferred the card there was no transfer of the license, so the people you swiped in would be illegally using the system.
As a practical matter, if someone selling swipes is fined only $25.00, no one is going to prosecute anyone giving away the swipes.
Tom
A cop would have to stand there and watch for a few minutes, counting the swipes. $25.00 per swipe. In the real world, I doubt that such good samaritans are a big problem.
By limiting the use of an unlimited Metrocard to once every 18 minutes, the MTA has said that it can be transferred to another person every 18 minutes; there is no effective difference between swiping someone else in and transferring the card to that person and having that person transfer it back to you. But KMA is right; there will never be enough occurences of generous individuals stationing themselves in stations to give free swipes all day for this to become a problem.
>>> By limiting the use of an unlimited Metrocard to once every 18 minutes, the MTA has said that it can be transferred to another person every 18 minutes <<<
That is fuzzy logic. The designers of the Metrocard were not complete idiots. If everyone was completely honest there would be no need for any time limitation. The limitation is to make it less tempting for several people traveling together to pass the card among themselves to enter the turnstiles at a station. The MTA would like to make the time as long as possible, but a longer time than eighteen minutes would inconvenience those who are legitimately using the card to take a short trip, and want to then either return or go somewhere else.
>>> there is no effective difference between swiping someone else in and transferring the card to that person and having that person transfer it back to you. <<<
There certainly is a difference if the return is done only after the person you gave the card to has left the system, which is the only legal way to do it.
What is it about using a subway turnstile that makes people think the rules change? Would you suggest that it would be ok for one person to show his monthly pass to a bus driver while someone else boards the bus? Or that a bus passenger board a bus and hand his pass to someone through an open window to someone on the curb? Both of those examples seem intuitively improper, and both are the equivalent of swiping someone into the subway with your unlimited Metrocard.
Tom
What is it about using a subway turnstile that makes people think the rules change?
I don't know what it is, but it's crawling up your arm -- and it's the same thing that makes people enter through the open gate next to the turnstile when they think no one is looking.
I noticed what looked like an Amtrak train going across the Hell's Gate Bridge. Isn't that freight only? Where does that track come from? Anyone have a track map? Doesn't all Amtrak go through Penn?
Also on the LIE in Queens near the old gas tanks they teared down is a track that the LIE goes over. What is that track for? Same one above?
Thanks,
dj
Amtrak uses the Hells Gate bridge regularly. It's part of their Northeast Corridor route. From Penn Station, Amtrak follows the same route as the LIRR for a spell, then cuts off and goes through Astoria, over the Hells Gate Bridge, and on to Boston, Springfield, and other parts of New England.
:-) Andrew
I believe it is called the Hell Gate or Hellgate bridge. No 's'. I just confirmed that the line is the Amtrak Hellgate Line.
The Hell Gate Bridge was a part of the "New York Connecting Railway" that joined the New Haven line in the Bronx to the Long Island Railroad in Queens (and then on to the Pennsylvania Railroad for points south.)
Before the Hell Gate Bridge was built, the only access for the New Haven to Manhatten was via Grand Central. Because the NY Central charged such high rates, and to get more business on thru trains from DC, the New Have built what it called (for some inane reason) the Harlem Line down the East Bronx to the Hell Gate Bridge.
Because of limitations on the use of the LIRR/Amtrak tunnels, very few freight trains (if any) use the Hell Gate Bridge for any destinations other than Long Island.
Much of the mess in the NY area railroad system results from the competition between the New York Central and the Pennsylvania. If one did things one way, the other did the opposite: For example -- third rail vs. overhead power; positional vs. colored signals.
Yes, I understand that the current choices are barging from Greenville to Bay Ridge or the scenic trip via Selkirk Yard near Albany.
The old New Haven, used to run freight down over the Hell Gate, xcross the Bay Ridge Line, and barge them across to New Jersey on the numerous raIL LINES West and South, rather then run them across the old bridge at Poukeepsie It used to be quite busy. I remember in the early 50s from a Great Aunts window at Nostrand And Ave I, their window looked North over the tracks, watching trains go by 3-4 per hour, and also the old trolley s on the Flatbush and Nostrand Lines, It could have also been the late 40s about. I also remember in 1951, the freedom train stopped there for a couple of days for showing. Maybe they will have it again this summer for 225 birthday of the USA
NewHavenJohn,
What about the westside Amtrak, where does that go?
N Bwy
Spuyten Duyvil, Connection with the Metro North Hudson Line at CP-12.
All the way to Albany?
Yes, the trains then run all the way to Albany.
And some run even further! Some of those trains continue all the way to Canada! Others continue from Albany to Buffalo! For more information, check out Amtrak's website.
- Lyle Goldman
Actually All the Way to Chicago if you take the lake Shore LTD and one car goes to LA
LA? What route do they use?
Thanks!
N Broadway Line
Astoria
I'm pretty sure there's fire code banning freights from the north river & east river amtrak tunnels, since the escape exits are what they are. there was a NY times article on it recently, though Iorget where I heard about the fire code ban from. (10 floor high spiral staircases, anyone? That's got to be as dizzying to climb as the catherdral towers in Cologne!)
-Joe
Man, they really don't make good cast iron sprial staircases any more. You really have to hunt to find one.
Those cathedral towers in Cologne are pretty humungous, aren't they? That cathedral dominates Cologne. I was there in 1978; in fact, we played a concert right next to it. IIRC there were LRVs which were very similar to what we have in Denver. I took one look at their folding double doors and thought, those look a lot like R-10 doors.
I thought they blew up that cathedral during the war.
Among the ruins it stood tall. There was some damage to the areas around the cathedral but the edifice stood. BTW, today was the 68th anniversary of Adolf Hitler's rise to power, not one of our finest hours in human history. He was responsible for the ruined city of Cologne that his meglomania brought on. It is now one of the great tourist attractions for Americans, and a Rhine cruise is pleasant. Most German men are still a bunch of arrogant bums, but I kind of like the woman. They seem to like American men.
It is now one of the great tourist attractions for Americans,
Get out! What about the Remagen bridge. That's where we crossed the Rhine.
It collapsed on Apriil 17, 1945, ten days after the American First Army under General Courtney Hodges crossed it. I don't think it was ever rebuilt. It was called the Ludendorff Bridge.
GERMANS ARE ALSO VERY CHEAP AND SH*TTY TIPPERS
You got that right. Their wallets squeak when they open them. Not my favorite people by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think the women are a hell of lot nicer than the males. They suck.
And let's not forget Cologne's original name, Aftershaven
;-D Andrew
Rim shot!
Well what do you know. I was there in 1978 too. Climbed to the top of the tower, 520 or so steps. But when I looked down guess what I saw? A damn McDonald's. What a letdown. Here I am puffing to beat the band and see that in a European country. As you might surmise I'm no great fan of Macs.
But you can get a Royale with cheese.
You mean königlich mit Käse
Can you get a Krusty partially gelatinated gum based beverage?
I think I might be losing some credibility because tonight guess where my wife and I ate? You guessed it, McDonald's. A grilled chicken sandwich with a medium glass of orange juice. My wife and I shared the fries.
I didn't climb the towers, but did go inside and gape at the sheer height of the roof. Incidentally, what time of the year were you there? I'd have to dig out my trip diary to verify the exact date, but it would have been around June 1.
I was there a year and a half ago, and won't soon forget the dizzying task of climbing them steps.
I don't recall seeing any LRVs around. For most of the week that I was there I scooted around the western side of the country on the bahn. While the trains were quick and on time, there were plenty of cars which seemed only to be in local service that were covered with graffiti. It was in NYC, circa mid 1980's! (The ICE trains, of course, were spotless).
Not knowing where the gas tanks were, I can't give you a direct answer. However, my Hagstrom Map of Queens shows only two lines that cross the LIE once you get away from the LIC area (which is certainly not what you asked about). The main line from Jamaica to NYP crosses the LIE near Woodhaven Blvd. The LIRR Bayridge line crosses the LIE just east of 75th Street. Unless there is another rail line, missing from my map, in the area you're asking about, it's one of those two.
It's the Bay Ridge line. The main line to Penn goes OVER the LIE.
-Hank
The Hell Gate bridge is the link from the Amtrak NEC from Penn to DC and the former New Haven RR route from Grand Central to Boston. The bridge was built in 1913 as part of the New York Connecting Railroad (joint ventrue of NYNH&H RR and PRR) and it ran from New Rochelle to HAROLD interlocking on the LIAR with a freight branch that ran through Queens making other several connections with the LIAR. The Hell Gate bridge was once 4 tracks, but now Amtrak uses the western 2 tracks and the NY&A uses the single eastern, de-electrified track. The 2 Amtrak tracks are known as the Amtrak Hellgate Line that currently runs from SHELL interlocking to the flying jct. at HAROLD interlocking.
I am interested to know how you thought Amtrak trains (ACELA included) got from Penn Station to points north like Boston?
Another intresting thing about this route Amtrak takes is all the different power requirements:
12kV 25Hz from Washington to New York City.
12kV 60Hz from New York City to Shell, phase breaks at 7.5 mi. intervals.
12kV 60Hz from Shell to New Haven, phase breaks at 12 mi. intervals.
25kV 60Hz from New Haven to Boston, phase breaks at 20 mi. intervals.
Changes in traction supply must be accommodated automatically while travelling at maximum speed, without interruptions in HEP (head end power, or "hotel power" for lights, air conditioning, etc). Changes in the overhead supply are signalled to the train by wayside transponders that are part of Amtrak's ACSES system; this allows the tap changer on the main transformer to reconfigure the primary windings in time for the phase break.
Just out of curiousity, what happens when either a transponder or tap changer malfunctions and the train goes through the phase break at top speed without reconfiguring the primary windings?
(Wow, I sound almost like I actually know what I'm saying when I talk that way...)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I would leave that to the experts...JEFF?
I dunno. Probably a big circuit breaker opens.
I figured that these electrical changes were what doomed the GG-1 electric, but others state that cracks in the frames were the real final curtain. I take it that no restored GG-1 could be run on the NEC for any dreamed about fan trip? Are there any GG-1's that have been restored to operable condition?
Reports differ as to whether or not NJT's remaining unit, 4877, is operable. If it is, it is the only one, as the other survivors have had their PCB-laden transformers removed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for telling me. How about the remaining freight electrics that used to run through Brooklyn's connecting Railroad past Bush Terminal and over the Hell Gate bridge in the late 60's and early 70's? I especially liked the ones that wore New Haven livery, and were acquired from Western Maryland RR when the line was de-electrified by NW in the early 60's. Are there any plans to double track the line through Brooklyn, and maybe even re-electrify it? I remember seeing on the news a story about some kid who climed onto the roof of a boxcar in a frieght yard and getting himself burned up when he touched the catenary. Some folk just do not listen - keep out means just that.
NY & Atlantic moves a fair amount of freight over that line now. They recently got some money & interest from the comunity to clean up the line (i.e. West Nile bugs) so it's not the forest it was when I took a failfan trip on the line last year.
But it's too early to think about double tracks of electrification.
BTW, those engines you liked were EF-4s, also called Viginians.
Mr t__:^)
And the ex-Virginian units are all gone to the scrapper, AFAIK.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How can you find out when the freights will move on the line on a given day? I ask so that I can be at the right place to take video pictures, not for anything sinister. I had the feeling that the Virginians all went to Naparano's by now, but they supplied some good visuals when they were operating.
I think that track might be the CSX line to fresh pond... it goes under the LIE, i'm not sure if the gas tanks were near that spot though...
Hell gate's got 3 tracks - the 2 southern ones are Amtrak to harold/sunnyside/penn The one on the north side is CSX betweeen Oak Point yard in the bronx and the NYA (LI Freight shortline) interchange at fresh pond jct. Amtrak runs a dozen or so trains on their tracks, while CSX runs 1 or 2 round trips from the bronx to queens on weekdays. There's also CP Rail, 3 days a week (that delievers the R142's to Fresh pond, though it arrives around 4, 5 AM), and the P&W during summer months that hauls rock trains to & from CT, usually one round trip a week.
Sure beats the days of Conrail! Variety!
Is that single track freight bypass along the Harlem River from just north of Yankee Stadium to Oak Point now in use?
Yeap. They started using it about a year ago, a week after that freight w/double stacked cars that somehow ended up in the train hit an overpass in the bronx and shut down metro north's hudson line to GCT the next morning...
Thanks for the info!
I just put up my Transit Pictures 17 page. In it, you'll find:
• Two trains to Bowling Green
• An train OOS north of Queensboro Plaza
• R36 mainline cars on the line
• and trains on the 63rd Street line
• A very beautiful subway station.
Check it out by clicking on the link below, take the Express train, then the Court Street Shuttle, then click on 17 in the links on the left frame. Enjoy!
Just thought I would point out that Dave has just added our trip to SI to his "Field Trip" section. You find a few faces to go with some frequent posters & some interesting photos to go with the text. Sorry we didn't take more photos, maybe in the Spring when Lou promises to re-do the trip.
Enjoy, Mr t__:^)
Three nice shots there.
Your camera seems to make people appear much heavier than they really are!
I will redo this after Day Light Saving time starts and we have more sunlight.
I recently took a Trip on the Hempstead branch. I rode the entire branch. However, I have a question. At Queens Village there are 4 tracks. The westbound local track with the platform, the westbound express and the eastbound express and local. I have seen DM's going express on the westbound track. But interesting enough, when I went on this trip, I saw DE30 405 and a 4 car Bilevel headed for Patchogue. However, it was headed eastbound on the westbound express track!. I have heard from Locomotive Engineers, that this is normal. Do they ever use the Eastbound express tracks? Also every morning there is a Train that goes from NY to Floral park( on the hempstead schedule its number 1612). I was wondering would that train use the express track and switch over at Floral park, or use the local track and bypass hollis, Queens Village and Bellerose?
I don't know that the four-track LIRR configuraton is meant to be local-express. Of course, the Hempstead Line trains use the outer tracks to platform at Hollis, Queens Village, and Bellerose, but I've seen non-Hempstead Line trains run on these tracks too. I think the LIRR just puts trains wherever they can fit them.
:-) Andrew
The Main Line tracks are reverse-signalled. During rush hours especially both tracks may be used for trains going in the same direction.
I've seen the DE's and DM's parked on those center tracks.
Those are the Oyster Bay trains that end at Mineola. They go all the way to Queens near Belmont Park to stop, then go the other way back to Mineola. Why they go that far just to change directions is beyond me. They might as well go all the way to Jamaica with passengers. At least then Bklyn bound passengers won't have to take 3 trains!!!
I agree! I was staying over a friend's house last night in Glen Head. I caught the 6:50am train to Jamaica. I know they rarely run trains past Jamaica on the Oyster Bay line, but why not? Is ridership that low? (This morning, train was comfortable until East Williston, where it began to get crowded... and then Mineola, well... when is it ever empty?) I can't see why people who live along this would be against direct service to NYC... or at least to Jamaica. It's a pain to go Glen Head when you have to get on at Flatbush, then change at Jamaica, then change at Mineola.
Heading east on the westbound express tracks eliminates the need to cross the switches east of the Belmont Park spur. At Bellerose and Floral Park, Hempstead trains must use the two southern tracks while mainline trains must use the two northern ones.
I had a hunch that was what was going on there. Makes more since then local crossing all the tracks to make it's turn off to the Hempstead branch.
BTW, Hollis thru Floral Park shows as local stations & part of the Hempstead branch on the map, i.e. colors
Mr t__:^)
As other posters have noted, the two "express" tracks through Hollis and Queens Village are reverse signalled.
Those eastbound trains on the Hempstead branch which appear to be ending at Floral Park are actually Huntington locals which make their first stop after Jamaica at Floral Park.
There are a few Hempstead westbound trains which skip Queens Village and Hollis. They run westbound on the middle tracks so as not to interfere with the more frequent Main Line rush hour trains. This creates an interesting train, as the 6:00 AM train from Farmingdale makes a stop at Queens Village to cover for a Hempstead train which is apparently blocked from making the crossover all the way to the westbound tracks.
Do they run anything to Belmont anymore?
It would make a great trminal for the "E" or "F" until the MTA gets the lobes to go to Hempstead or West Hempstead or Far Rock or Douglaston.
Belmont would be an Ideal Park and Ride, or Naussa Bus terminal .
Less traffic in Queens to 179th . Shorter bus runs to the Subway. Direct access to the Parkways.
avid
Do they run anything to Belmont anymore?
Oh yes, there is an active schedule of trains to Belmont on racing days.
I was visiting the London Underground web site
www.londontransport.co.uk
and I noticed a ticker displaying the following message:
LATEST RRAVEL NEWS...
UNDERGROUND: DISTRICT LINE DELAYS ARE POSSIBLE FOLLOWING A PERSON TAKEN ILL ON A TRAIN AT ALDGATE EAST.
BUSES: 8 25 242 501 521 HIGH HOLBORN WILL BE CLOSED FROM 1900 THIS EVENING UNTIL 0700 TOMORROW MORNING DUE TO THE REMOVAL OF A COLLAPSED CRANE.
UNDERGROUND: HAMMERSMITH & CITY LINE DELAYS ARE POSSIBLE FOLLOWING A PERSON TAKEN ILL ON A TRAIN AT ALDGATE EAST.
This gets me to wonder about the differences between English-speaking people around the world. Although most, if not all, understand the phrase "taken ill," New Yorkers prefer "sick passenger." Then again, the MTA doesn't have such a real-time web site and if there was a report of a sick passenger at 23rd Street, it would either stay on the site for weeks or not appear at all.
Just a small point to ponder...
Next time your on Holiday (Vacation) you will notice a lot of difference. That is why we speak AMERICAN here and not the Queens English!!
Yo! QUEENS English ain't quite da same!
:-) Andrew
The powers that be don't want us to use 'sick passenger' anymore. According to that moronic 'Blue Book' that they issued to us (it's a guide to PA announcements for certain situations), they would rather have us say 'a customer in need of medical assistance'. I say screw all this PC crap.
Billy
But you'll notice that those same powers always refer to 'sick passengers' over the radio.
So I guess getting on the radio, calling command and asking for a "meat wagon" is out of vogue too? Glad I left then. :)
Command Center is now 'Control Center', and if you ask for a meat wagon, you'll probably get about 10 days in the street. It's really gotten bad. More power to you that you were able to get out. If I didn't have so much damn time invested in this job (almost 20 years) I'd be right behind you.
Don't feel too bad - I worked for the State in Albany for 12 years and when I wasn't allowed to say "meat wagon" here either, I packed my bags and am now here at a software company where I can not only say "meat wagon" whenever I want, I can even write code to produce the proper wail-whoop and put it on the company PA if I'm in the mood to do so. So long as I write code every now and then. I'm convinced that gubbamint work won't be complete until every single person has that smile wiped off their faces, by force if necessary. Sheesh.
I guess we don't call the cabinload "geese" anymore nor do we refer to 12-9's as "greasing the wheels" anymore, eh? Ain't no way to run a railroad.
I take it they don't say "dump its load" anymore when referring to discharging passengers.
I'll bet they call them "clients" now. :)
... only at Stillwell Avenue :)
--Mark
The powers that be don't want us to use 'sick passenger' anymore. According to that moronic 'Blue Book' that they issued to us (it's a guide to PA announcements for certain situations), they would rather have us say 'a customer in need of medical assistance'. I say screw all this PC crap.
I was waiting at the Ronkonkoma LIRR station a couple of weeks ago, picking up my stepdaughter who was returning from the city, and heard an announcement that the next train to Penn Station would be leaving from the southside track because there was a "sick passenger" on the train in the station on the northside track. Now talk about a euphemism, I was able to see the activity on the train, and the passenger in question, a man of about 50, was more like a dead passenger. Paramedics spent more than a half-hour giving him CPR, administering electric shocks and intravenous drugs, apparently all to no avail. He finally was taken away on a stretcher with one paramedic still performing CPR all the way to the ambulance. One's chances of survival under those circumstances, so I've heard, are approximately zero percent.
Gee, I'm surprised - because the same dummy who wrote the 'Blue Book' - this Dr. Diekman, who is supposed to have a Ph. D. in communications (I say he has a Ph. D. in being a putz - I met the guy a few times over the years and if you look up 'nerd' in the dictionary you'll certainly see his picture), is now working for the LIRR. Guess he thinks no one over there can use their own words for anything, either.
And a 12-9 is called a "customer injury".
For once, I'd love to hear over the station PA:
"Due to an individual getting his brains splattered on the front of an E train, there is a slight delay in service. We'd like to keep train service clean and on time, please do not splatter your brains on our equipment".
They also say "Mind the Gap" and "Way Out" (exit). Scottish is written pretty much the same as London English, but spoken it's almost a different language. I understood it only because me mum's Scottish.
I remember seeing "Way Out" signs at Wembley Stadium. Not to mention "To Let" signs where office space was available. I had to keep reminding myself there was no "i" between the "o" and the "l".:-)
And just as we have "Keep America Beautiful" for an anti-littering slogan, over there it's "Keep Britain Tidy".
Want to know what my favorite British word is? Perambulator.
Want to know what my favorite British word is? Perambulator.
My favorite? Oh, sod off!
Bollocks!
How about getting a bag of crisps and a pack of fags for me eh bloke? Here's a few quid. Don't bloody hell head into the pub and buy a pint yob. You know how you can't hold your liquor on the tube carriage.
a pack of fags for me
Definitely one situation where amusing misunderstandings are possible!
I've also heard that if you're in a restaurant in England and want a napkin, you have to ask for a "serviette." If you ask for a napkin, you'll be given the sort of thing Anon_e_mouse saw a woman change on the Dyre Avenue line ...
you'll be given the sort of thing Anon_e_mouse saw a woman change on the Dyre Avenue line ...
Eeewww...
I forget what product was being advertised, but there was a great television ad a few years ago in which an Irish bartender invites an American tourist "downstairs to have some good craic."
Positively 100% LMAO!!! Oh by the way, was that a dinner napkin or merely a paper napkin being changed on the Dyre line? (*wink*)
Peace and Free Love, Thomas
Ee-eewww-ww!!
Then there's "rubber" as opposed to "pencil eraser".
And, of course, a "subway" in Britain is nothing more than an underpass.
In London, what we call the subway is referred to as "the tube" or "the underground". Much like New York, a lot of London's subway system is in open cut or on embankment. Some Tube lines share ROW and trackage with commuter rail in the suburbs or Kew Gardens and Forest Hill.
What the British call a "subway" is actually a pedestrian underpass under a street joined by two stairways. If you didn't know better, you'd think such a stairway WAS a subway entrance.
Ahhh, and the use of the word "circus" to mean "circle" as in Piccadilly Circus or Oxford Circus.
I can see my kids asking, "why does London have so many circuses? Where do they keep all the animals?" :)
--Mark
The WCBS Radio Web site has a nice piece on the Willy B construction, including a brief history of the bridge and its role in carrying trolleys and the subway.
From there I linked around a bit, and found that the NYC DoT has its traffic rules of the road published in .pdf format (100+ pages). Fascinating reading, but off topic, so I won't mention it here :-)
Interesting little tidbits there... thanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've only been riding the NYC subway regularly since the late 1980's. A quick preusal of the "Rolling Stock" section of this site shows some IRT Low-V's working up through at least the early 1970's. So I'm just wondering, when were the last pre-unification IRT and BMT cars retired from revenue service?
:-) Andrew
The last R-7/9s made their final revenue trip on March 31, 1977.
1969 saw the withdrawal of the World's Fair Lo-Vs, the last remaining BMT standards, and the Q cars.
To add one item I'd volunteer that I never really considered the little fleet that ran on 3rd Ave. a going matter but appreciated that there was one last vestige of the IRT I knew.
I'll offer that with that one exception that the last of the old IRT was in late winter of 1964 on the 7th ave-Lenox line...the last mainline operation. Would have been Low-V's (remember my last trip..which surprised me seeing one..on that line on car 5434..in Feb or March 64.) or Steinways.
IIRC the last BMT standards went out in Spring of 1969 , and thn the Q's on October 4, followed in November I think by the last IRT's on 3rd ave.
I'm only too happy to add that I attended the funeral for the Q's and the old Myrtle..and was working that line the last week. Likewise ran a fantrip with them on Oct.5.,1969
I'm on the distribution of a transportation elect. newsletter.
In Issue #301 I found the following item that some of you may find of interest:
"A bill introduced in early January instructing Connecticut
officials to establish Hartford-New Haven commuter rail
service has picked up over 50 sponsors. Backers hope that
the state-wide discussion of transportation reform that
developed since September's "transportation summit" give
the project a better chance than in the past."
Previously such an effort got turned into 95 widening south of NH.
Mr t__:^)
"Previously such an effort got turned into 95 widening south of NH."
Yet the Hartford-New Haven connector is still a mess during rush hours. -Nick
Considering that Conn. Governor Rowland was suggesting cancellation of Shore Line East service not that long ago, I don't expect to see this proposal going very far.
Which isn't to say that it SHOULD be approved. Downtown New Haven simply doesn't have enough jobs to support commuter rail service. That would be true even if Union Station were more centrally located. Downtown Hartford's a closer call in terms of a job base, but even then I don't believe it would make the grade.
The chicken or the egg?
The chicken or the egg?
I assume you're asking whether downtown Hartford and New Haven have no commuter rail* because they don't have enough jobs, or whether they don't have enough jobs because they don't have commuter rail. I would have to say the former, most definitely. Downtown New Haven has never been a major jobs center. There are a few relatively small office buildings, some banks, a (AFAIK) struggling urban mall, and that's about it. Yale University** and its hospital do provide a large number of jobs on the fringe of downtown, not really within walking distance of Union Station. And Union Station is itself in a rather inconvenient location.
Hartford's a tougher call. There is a considerably larger jobs base downtown than in New Haven***, and its train station has a more convenient (though not perfect) location. Even so, I'd say it's stretching definitions to say that there's enough jobs to support commuter rail. Remember, except for NYC commuters in Fairfield County, Connecticut is not a particularly transit-oriented state. Its cities and other employment bases did not develop according to transit routes, at least not in the past several decades.
* = Yes, I know that some people use Shore Line East or reverse-commuting on Metro North to get to jobs in New Haven, but neither service would exist if it weren't for Metro North's main mission of carrying NYC commuters.
** = But not as many as you'd think. For all its prestige, Yale is a small university in terms of enrollment and, presumably, employment.
*** = Downtown Hartford probably has few jobs today than it did as recently as 1988 or 1989. It never fully recovered from the Great Recession of the early 1990's. And that's speaking just in economic terms. Hartford (and much of Connecticut) was thoroughly demoralized by the catastrophic events of 1990 - 1993 and has been left with an inferiority complex that probably will take decades to eliminate.
Since I attend the University of Connecticut and have passed through both Hartford's and New Haven's Union Stations and travelled along I-84 and I-91 many times on my way to and from New York, I thought I should put my two cents in on this issue.
Hartford probably does have fewer jobs today than it did twelve years ago. But it still has pretty nasty traffic during rush hours and often at other times too, both downtown and on 84 and 91. I think some kind of commuter service could benefit Hartford-bound commuters. I know that there's some plan for a busway between Hartford and New Britain, ten miles west. It is supposed to be built over an old railroad ROW and will parallel Amtrak's Springfield line part of the way. This busway sound to me like a bad idea, because it would be fairly easy for cars to drive in the busway, which is basically going to be another road.
It's sad that ConnDOT has been considering turning this ROW into basically another road. What they should do is run some kind of light rail service from New Britain to Hartford. If it's too expensive to electrify the line, then they should consider diesel LRVs. I believe Adtranz and Alstom make such products and I think they'd do well between Hartford and New Britain.
As for New Haven, I thought it actually was a major business center. But if it's not and it never was, then it is probably not such a good idea to have a New Haven-oriented commuter or light-rail service. But Hartford might just benefit from a light rail service of some sort. If commuter rail service were done from New Haven to Hartford, it should be oriented toward Hartford and should utilize DMUs, maybe Bombardier Talents or Adtranz Flexliners. But I'm not sure of how many people commute from New Haven to Hartford.
DMU's? Bah! I want to see more New Haven painted GP-40's and Shoreliner coaches. Maybe the FL-9's could find a new home on that route?
Yeah, that's it. Let's kill a viable idea by useing "standard' equipment, i.e, overweight, slow diesels and overweight, crap riding cars.
And the FL-9s are shot, and the EPA wants them gone too. Besides, they can't even get out of their own way, let alone pull a train.
The FL-9's will live forever! What's the EPA harping about anyway. FL's are dual mode (so they don't pollute all the time) and only 1800 hp, so there isn't much comming out of the little engine. Many short lines and regional carriers use old GP equipment and even F units. I don't see the EPA yelling at them.
But they're worn out. Seen one lately? They smoke worse than an old Alco. The FL-9s and I are about the same age, and I'm getting worn out too, so I know how it goes :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They smoke worse than an old Alco.
Wow, I didn't think that was possible! Do they have a 567 prime mover in them or were they upgraded to a 645?
567s, I think. Very very very worn out ones. Like the GG-1s, the FL-9s are simply at the end of their life. There's no reason to rebuild them, and it doesn't even begin to make economical sense anyway. The trucks are shot, the bodies are shot, the traction and running gear is shot. It's cheaper and easier to just build a new locomotive.
<< Do they have a 567 prime mover in them or were they upgraded to a 645? >>
Depends upon the rebuild. The original FL-9s were built with 567C and D1's. The GE, Morris Knudson, and Chrome Locomotive rebuilds (1979 - 1985) overhauled the original prime movers but left them in place. The MK rebuilds in 1990 - 93 for Amtrak, and the 1994 - 95 rebuilds for CDOT, upgraded these to 645C's. The last rebuild, by ABB in 1994 - 95, for MN and LIRR, replaced the prime movers with 710G3's which are rated for 2800 HP, up from the 1750 of the earlier variants. The 710's are 12-cylinder, while the earlier variants are 16-cylinder.
You put FL9s or GP40s and Shoreliner coaches on the Hartford line and you can forget about seeing people using it. Considering that the FL9s are too old and it's only 30 miles from New Haven to Hartford, it's much better to utilize new DMUs with nice features that might entice people out of their cars.
DMUs with nice features that might entice people out of their cars.
That sentence is mutually exclusive. There are no nice features on DMU's that will get people out of their cars.
There are no nice features on DMU's that will get people out of their cars.
Mike, do yourself a favor - when you don't know what you're talking about, SHUT UP. Unless you like the taste of foot in mouth, that is.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I grew up in a town of 45,000 people (250,000 in metro area) in central FL with CSX tracks running in the middle of downtown streets. I once read in the local library the county commissioners' 2020 transportation plan, which footnoted the possiblity of reserving such lines for future light rail use! This in the most unprogressive, untransitfriendly, most redneck goodoleboy town one can imagine. If even they were contemplating it, I'm sure it could happen in CT, the richest, most blueblood oldmoney state in the union.
Hartford probably does have fewer jobs today than it did twelve years ago. But it still has pretty nasty traffic during rush hours
and often at other times too, both downtown and on 84 and 91. I think some kind of commuter service could benefit Hartford-bound commuters.
Heavy rush-hour traffic on I-84 and I-91 through Hartford is only to a relatively small degree caused by commuters to the city's downtown area. To a much greater extent, it results from poor highway design. Both Interstates go right through the center of Hartford and in fact intersect with one another at the edge of downtown. Many entrances and exits complicated matters further. As you might imagine, all this violates just about every rule of highway design. To make matters worse, I-84 is a very heavily traveled Interstate, being one of the main routes to Boston and other parts of New England; I-91 isn't quite as busy but is far from deserted.
Putting this all together, the heavy traffic through Hartford consists in large part of vehicles just passing through the city. Some also consists of people driving to jobs in the suburbs, who are unlikely to be served by commuter rail. If there were rail service, only the people working in downtown - and only some of them - would use it. I doubt if that would make a significant difference.
I want to take the morons wo designed that interchange and beat the snot out of them. It's yet another example of why "traffic engineering" and "Highway engineering" are bullshit fields. I'm beginning to think the only requirement for a job in either field is to be able to draw a line on a map...
[... the heavy traffic through Hartford consists in large part of vehicles just passing through the city. Some also consists of people driving to jobs in the suburbs, who are unlikely to be served by commuter rail. If there were rail service, only the people working in
downtown - and only some of them - would use it. I doubt if that would make a significant difference.]
First, I'll have to admit that I agree to a large part with your comments, BUT the area south of Hartford (on both sides of the CT river) isn't what is was years ago, i.e. it's a suburban sprawl. I'm talking about Wethersfield and other towns west of CT river & south of Hartford. Now I have no idea why this old line was picked over others, e.g. west from Hartford to Farmington, etc. or east to East Hartford or north, etc. Anyhow I think with some bus feeder service they might make a go of it to Hartford. Maybe the extension to NH is felt may provide more riders. Maybe someone who knows something about the Amtrak & bus loads in the area could give us some input.
The reason that they picked this line may have the most to do with the condition of the track, i.e. it's single track, but new roadbed. BTW, it was double track years ago.
P.S. there has also been some talk about Old Saybrook to Hartford service along the Ct river.
P.S. there has also been some talk about Old Saybrook to Hartford service along the Ct river.
I doubt that will happen. Once the CT river leaves the great valley the population density drops off significantly. I'm not sure if there would be a large enough "flow" of people to Hartford to justify rail service. Not to mention the RoW is extremely narrow, boardered by cliffs and swamps. You'd have a tough time finding space for fast running and passing points. I would love to see some expanded senic service north past East Haddam. The line sure is pretty enough and there is enough disposable income in the area to make some sort of lunch and dinner train a real sucess.
The "plan", such as it is, would be to keep it single track and to run three trains southbound in the a.m. and northbound in the p.m. to feed to/from Metro North.
Don't make much sense. Commuting to Hartford is much worse than going toward New Haven.
Amtrak doesn't fill many trains, but they don't run many anyway. The Hartford station currently has a few holes in the platform that have been roped off. It's a real dump. The bus companies run plenty, and fill them. As for transit, IMHO, a light rail system in the Hartford area makes more sense right now. The buses are often well filled, and a few companies (Datco , Arrow, Double A) run busses durring rush hour to farther out points.
I'd love to see a light rail:
a) Up to Bloomfield from the train station via the Griffins line, though this will never happen.
b) Along Main Street to Blue hills ave and up Blue Hills to around Copaco. basicallt duplicating the T route, with the V, Q, and K, etc having service too. maybe an extension to Bishop's Corner.
c) Into East Hartford, and up the line that parralles the Tolland Tnpk, and the line that parrelles the Rt 5 drag strip :) Use the area right by main Street as a station and Rail->Bus transfer to service the B, O, etc routes.
d)This is a stretch, but down to Middletown via the abandoned line that loops around Hartford Harley. This would really be better suited for a higher speed MU though.
e)Also a stretch - but to New Britian via the existing tracks. Also more suited for MU operation.
Lots of people go all over the immediate area, and the bus service is pretty sucky. But busses suck by design anyway.
There used to be a somewhat extensive system in Hartford years ago - look around for old trolley wire poles and such next time you're there...
When did 95 get widened south of NH? All they did was blacktop over the grass median and make it into a shoulder. No new traffic lanes were opened -- tho' they are sorely needed.
A miracle is needed to unclog 95!
[When did 95 get widened south of NH?]
I was speaking in present tense vs. past tense, i.e. there is a plan in place to start doing that.
Mr t__:^)
What was the last commuter rail line that ran between New Haven and Hartford (other than Amtrak, of course), and when was the last time it ran?
- Lyle Goldman
The NH had some Budd RDCs that ran up & down that line .... when, I would guess the 70s.
Mr t__:^)
When is that thing getting released? Spring 2001 is fast approaching...
The Microsoft Train Simulator sounds like it might be great. But will you get the message "Microsoft Train Simulator has caused a general protection fault"? If you have to shut down the program will you have to go through "ScanTrain"? You might also get the message "This program has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down. If the problem persists contact the program vendor." How many times will your computer crash before you can get Microsoft Train Simulator to work? If it does work which subway line is it supposed to represent?
BMTJeff
True enough. AOL gives me that message all the time. Is there a target date yet?
April 1, 2001
AOL can be a pain in the kazoo from what I gather. I don't have AOL as my ISP but I'm using someone else and they've been O.K. so far but, they had their problems in Mid-November and then my computer went screwy and I had to reformat the machine which was a headache to the nth degree.
If Microsoft Train Simulator works well I would like to find out about it.
BMTJeff
How many times will your computer crash before you can get Microsoft Train Simulator to work?
If you use Windows NT4 or 2000, the program crashes, the computer stays.
You can then reload the program.
My entire experience with NT4, it crashed only twice. Both times while using a slightly unstable methood of hiding the NetZero ad thing (and averting the half-hourly disconnect countdown). The blue screen with a bunch of hex codes followed by memory dump and "contact system administrator" message.
I use Windows 98 SE so I would need to restart the computer if the program crashes. If you're careful with Windows 98 you can keep the crashing to a minimum. Once in a while Microsoft Word will crash on me. Most of the time when my computer crashes it is when I'm on the internet and the browser crashes which happens every so often.
BMTJeff
Microsoft Office and Microsoft Internet Explorer, the 2 least tested programs from Microsoft. I think it was Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.01 SP1 that deleted all of Microsoft Office 2000's help files when you installed it.
R68A 5200:
I have Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.5 which works well when I use it but I generally use Netscape Communicator 4.76 as my web browser most of the time. I also have Opera 5.02 but it has been buggy for the last two weeks so it crashes on certain websites. When Opera is working well it is reasonably good. I don't often use IE because because I find that Netscape is usually a little easier to use and has some features that IE lacks.
BMTJeff
Well, it's always a good idea to keep your version of Internet Explorer current as it upgrades Internet Explorer and Windows. 5.5 SP1 is the current one.
But even for most programs, the computer doesn't go down with the program.
And this happens on Unix, Windows and MacOS (ewww), since those "illegal operations" are caused by programmer incompetence. Since all programmers are people, they can't be perfectly competent, they can at best be very competent (or less), like all of us.
programmer incompetence
The best definition of Microsoft I've ever heard.
Mac Rules!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You probably right that Mac rules but,if you try to use Microsoft Word which is also written for Mac it will still crash even on a Mac. From what I gather Macs seldom crash otherwise.
BMTJeff
You probably right that Mac rules
No he isn't.
You're not going to crash very often in a lawnmower, unless you're a blithering idiot, but that doesn't mean you should use it on the road.
I agree with you that you absolutely have to be a complete and utter idiot to use a lawn mower on the road.
Believe or not I've spoken to people who own Macs and they find that they're very good and they seldom crash. On the other hand PCs often have the tendency to crash because of the problems with the program. I gather that NT 4.0 and Windows 2000 tend to be somewhat better than Windows 98. Microsoft is supposed to come out with a new windows program this year but I don't know what it is supposed to replace and if it is going to be any better than Windows 98. If it is better than Windows 98 I would take Windows 98 off of my computer and replace it with something better.
BMTJeff
Yeah. NT and 2000 are built on different architecture. It's much more stable. Microsoft will release Windows .NET this year. It will replace all of the current Windows on the market. There will be a Personal Edition for 9X/ME users and a Professional, Server, DataCenter etc. for NT/2000 users.
They've finally figured out what they're going to call Whistler?
BTW, Windows 95 was called Chicago in early testing. Windows 98 was called Memphis (Tennessee, not Ancient Egypt).
NT6 will have a 64 bit version for the new Intel Itanium built on new IA64 architecture, not the existing x86, requiring a specially written OS.
R68A - 5200:
I hope that Windows NET will be more stable than Windows 98 which can crash easily if you're not careful.
BMTJeff
Whistler will come out in 2002 and will be the equivalent of NT 6.0 (Win2k is NT 5.0). It will include a consumer oriented version to replace Windows Me (Windows 4.9) and will finally unify the two brands of MS Operating system and kill DOS off.
AFAIK, it will still have a DOS emulator like Windows 2000 or Windows Me. Windows Me is built on a kernel of DOS 8.0, but unlike 95 (4.0) and 98 (4.1), Real Mode has been eliminated, and you can't boot to DOS anymore (or restart the computer in MS-DOS mode), you must use the boot disk that can be created.
Real Mode has been eliminated, and you can't boot to DOS anymore (or restart the computer in MS-DOS mode), you must use the boot disk that can be created.
Why dosen't MS just use a dual booting option. You can boot to a non-DOS Windows or boot to DOS. Its not hard. Also you can always boot to DOS just using a DOS boot disk. It would require a different chip to make DOS go away and what won't happen because no software would work any more.
I'm surprised that with all the hype LINUX/UNIX is getting Microsoft isn't trying to bring back a non-GUI aspect to the OS. It dosen't really matter to me any more because I rarely use DOS for anything EXCEPT for emergency computer repair. Because Windows is such a complex tar baby it needs some sort of manual override.
Why dosen't MS just use a dual booting option. You can boot to a non-DOS Windows or boot to DOS.
Like booting to Windows 2000 or to the Windows 2000 Command Console.
Also you can always boot to DOS just using a DOS boot disk.
Didn't I just say that?
It would require a different chip to make DOS go away and what won't happen because no software would work any more.
What software? DOS software is incredibly obsolete. The last time any legitimate DOS program was made was in 1995. How would you like a Pentium-133 with 16 MB of RAM and a 1.2 GB HD for $2000?
Not to mention a 28.8 kbps modem, 2MB of Video RAM, a 4 speed CD-ROM and a 66 MHz front side bus.
How would you like a Pentium-133 with 16 MB of RAM and a 1.2 GB HD for $2000?
Not to mention a 28.8 kbps modem, 2MB of Video RAM, a 4 speed CD-ROM and a 66 MHz front side bus.
Substitute 2.1 gig HD and 1 meg V ram and you just described by Packard Bell.
BTW I know many DOS based games that were made as late as 1997 (or more). Also just because software is old dosen't make it any less fun. Now it just runs lightning fast.
I have a slowening program.
The problem is it doesn't work for Windows programs. I can't run SimTower anymore because its time system is based on the frame rate, not a real time clock.
I can't run SimTower anymore because its time system is based on the frame rate,not a real time clock.
That's a problem with the software not the os. There are many ways to use a real time clock within dos.
Did I SAY it was a problem with the OS?
I was clearly saying it was the programmers fault for not doing it differently.
The only time I mentioned the OS was when I mentioned that the slowening program didn't work with Windows programs.
They should bring back Turbo buttons!
Oh horse hockey ... if it wasn't for Gates, a brand new peecee would cost under $300. The "Windows bundle" is now better than half the cost of a machine. And if you want Linux on it, you STILL have to pay the "Windows tax" and Billy ain't even a government with taxing authority. Yet, anyway ...
Oh horse hockey ... if it wasn't for Gates, a brand new peecee would cost under $300. The "Windows bundle" is now better than half the cost of a machine. And if you want Linux on it, you STILL have to pay the "Windows tax" and Billy ain't even a government with taxing authority. Yet, anyway ...
What are you responding to?
It was the What software? DOS software is incredibly obsolete. The last time any legitimate DOS program was made was in 1995. How
would you like a Pentium-133 with 16 MB of RAM and a 1.2 GB HD for $2000? which is the standard Microsoft argument of "ooooo, isn't life oh so much better now and we've made computers SO cheap now?" arguments presented by their PR wags. Yes, the price of computing has come down but Microsoft's price has gone up and their "piece of the cost of a finished computer" has gone from less than 5% of the price to over 50% of the price. I was under the impression you were trying to make that argument ... only Billy and Ballmer actually *believe* that. (and of course ZDNet and their other PR arms)
NO!
I wasn't saying that computer prices have gone down, I was saying that was the standard computer in 1995, and $2000 is a standard price.
You can still buy that kind of computer, except at much cheaper.
Whoops! My apologies ... I'm used to being taunted by Microsquishies at every turn and that makes my shootin' iron finger twitchy and that rap is often tossed about as an example of the "innovation that benefits consumers" we hear so much about whilst staring at the pretty blue screens. My attitude is, "the box said Windows 95 or better so I installed Linux."
Since when does Windows etc. cost $1000? You do know and you can build your own machines w/o software and almost all software can be obtained for free. If you like Microsoft, buy it, if you don't, download it for free.
Whistler (NT6) will force people to connect to the internet and get an authorization number. Each CD will allow only 2 installation, if you have no internet access, you can do it over the phone, getting a number compatible with the CD (I assume each CD will have its own serial number). If you want to transfer, you can call Microsoft, but they have no way of knowing if you removed the software from the original computer. So even before cracking, it'll be a cinch to get multiple copies.
And for those who don't want to call right away, there's a 30 day trial. Then you can reformat your Hard Drive.
And Office 10 will include the same feature, and I'm sure if you uninstall it, it doesn't remove all the files to prevent you from reinstalling all the time and using the trial.
I got ahead of myself with the 1995 computer.
Anywho, to move on:
I'm surprised that with all the hype LINUX/UNIX is getting Microsoft isn't trying to bring back a non-GUI aspect to the OS.
Non-GUI aspects suck and just make everything more confusing. There's a reason Windows 95 was created.
It dosen't really matter to me any more because I rarely use DOS for anything EXCEPT for emergency computer repair. Because Windows is such a complex tar baby it needs some sort of manual override.
That's what the command console is for. You can load it from FOUR Windows 2000 boot disks, or install it on your HD for dual boot. It works on NTFS drives too.
Yeah, but Gates has made a fortune selling lawnmowers. :)
I know. He's probably made a lot of money off his investment in Apple when they were at their lowest point ever.
Actually they're right back down where they were before. Gates sold high ... as usual ... fastest buck the boy has made since Microsoft BOB ...
Very true - I installed it on one of my older Macs and it ran poorly there; thinking it might work better on my G3 I tried it there, but it won't even run. So I stick with AppleWorks 5 and an older version of FrameMaker when I need to do heavy-duty stuff.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You see what happens when you take things out of context.
But I wouldn't expect a Mac to get by exclusively on honesty.
No subways planned from what I heard - so far it's mostly upper midwestern freight railroads. If it's subway sims you want, about all there is is Mechanik for now - a new and greatly improved II version is due at about the same time.
Start your hunt here:
http://kamx-members.xoom.com/ttcsubway/
Althoug, I did see on the site that they will have an ACELA train.
I will be in Philadelphia for some brief railfanning this Friday, Feb 2. I plan to arrive @ 30th St. around 9:30 or so, ride the rails, and then take the 2:45 on to Harrisburg. Depending on how well the day goes, I could take a later train the The Burg. Would anyone be interested in joining me or playing tour guide? I'm up for anything really. I've never been on PATCO, BSL, or the P&W (Route 100), but I wouldn't mind riding MFL or Subway-Surface routes again since I'll be looking for some photo-ops. Since I don't know the neighborhoods that well, I'm wary of traveling by myself with my camera. Sorry, I know its a bit late notice, but plans were only finalized today.
I can't accompany you as I'll be at work, but pretty much any neighborhood along transit lines should be safe during the day. Don't wander too far from North Broad, and I wouldn't leave sight of the stations on the West Philly El if you look really touristy. If you keep a low profile, though, you'll be fine. PATCO and Route 100 are perfectly safe. As long as you don't leave the station on PATCO, you can ride to the end of the line, and then return while paying only the cheaper Philly/Camden fare, because you swipe your farecard when you get on and when you get off. Technically there are transfer fares between SEPTA/PATCO, but I guarantee you no one working in a ticket booth will know what you're talking about. One suggested itinerary is to take the El and 100 to Norristown, then return on the R6.
And if you miss the R6 in Norristown, we will all know why your postings have stopped coming.
From what I have heard, don't do the 100 if you are going to have a super long layover in Norristown.
If the weather is expected to be OK, I could be persuaded to take the day off and join you. NJT AC line to or from Lindenwold would be an alternative to a PATCO round trip. We didn't fit that in on the SubTalk SEPTA trip last August.
Bob
I am planning to go on a Saturday in the middle of Next Month. Would anybody be interested. I have not been in Philly since 81. I will either drive up or take Amtrack from DC. the problem is I save time driving in.
I've done the #10. It isn't that great. My favorite lines were the Broad Street and Market Frankford. Also, there are some places you don't want to be around for too long such as Frankford, Norristown, ect. Regional Rail is OK but doubling back is no fun. For instance, don't take the R5 to the end and come back that way. Those lines are great for one way trips. Suggested runs:
Sharon Hill/Chester County:
R2 to Sharon Hill
102 to Clifton-Aldan or 69th
If you get off at Clifton
R3 to any nearby station
Bus to 69th
MFL to Center City
Route 100:
MFL to 69th
100 to Norristown
R6 to Center City
Don't spend too long in Norristown! It isn't the nicest place on earth.
Chestnut Hill:
R7 to Chestnut Hill East
R8 to Center City
Or do vice-versa!
Fern Rock:
R2/3/5 to Fern Rock
BSS to Center City
Or do vice-versa!
I did 8 hours on SEPTA a few years ago and did parts of the following routes:
R2
102
R3
109
100
MFL
R7
R8
BSS
R6
44
Have fun!
WOW! I intend to go to Philadelphia on Friday too.
Jersey Mike told me to go to PATCO-Woodcrest (free parking) take PATCO into the city, Take the BSS to Fern Rock and back, take the MFL to 69th, the 100 to Bryn Mawr and back then the MFL to 30th Street to check out that station, FREE ride to Suburban to check it out and spend the rest of the day doing a general tourist tour of Philadelphia until I'd have to return to Woodcrest (and drive back to New York).
Before anybody asks me why I'm not taking NJT-SEPTA, I would rather spend time checking out Philadelphia than taking the (been there done that ad nauseum) NY subway to and from Manhattan.
Taking the regional rail between 30th and Suburban is not technically free. They usually check tickets after leaving the Center City fare zone, but I have seen people made to pay just to go between 2 CC stations. It is free if you have an Amtrak ticket stub to take Regional Rail to Suburban or Market East from 30th.
I have only been asked for a ticket once and it was at 30th St. before I got on and I did not look anything like an Amtrak traveler. The main reason was because it was an Airport Express train and nobody else was getting ON at 30th St. Every other time the crew hasn't cared one bit. I would advise Pigs to carry bag or something and if you get asked for a ticket just say you can from Amtrak and then look for your stud to no avail.
In other words, lie? Your sense of ethics bothers me greatly. If you are at all representative of the current generation of college students I am gravely concerned for the future of this country. Unfortunately, while your attitudes may not be held by the majority of your colleagues, I am afraid that too many of them do agree with you.
Maybe the next time I want something I should just steal it from you and lie about it. By your reasoning that makes it OK, doesn't it?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't wory, I don't have to lie. I always keep a couple of undated, Amtrak unreserved ticket stubs in my backpack just in case.
Your morals suck!
Judging from this post and your responses to the Metrocard swipes, I would guess that you don't mind stealing from people, as long you think they deserve to be stolen from.
Who gave you that right? Do you cheat on income taxes too? Maybe grab the occasional apple from the unattended front of a grocer's display (what the heck, there are 1000 of them there, he'll never notice)?
I sure am a sucker. An Amtrak employee gave me a hard time once about turning in an uncollected ticket from a resebed train after I took the ride. Then I found out from a supervisor that my turning it in helped the conductor not get burned (the train had a short crew and I wasn't on very long).
I can't help but lose respect for you, esp. since you seem so proud of your actions.
I would guess that you don't mind stealing from people, as long you think they deserve to be stolen from.
No, my criteria is if it won't do anybody any harm. SEPTA isn't running a special train just for me. If they did make a point of collecting fares I would just walk so they're not loosing my fare. Anyway, this situation is really covered by my "de facto free service" rules. I will protect myself from having to pay $4 for a service that is de facto free. Its like if some MTA employee stationed himself at the SIR station before St. George and demanded $1.50 from all the who got off there to beat paying at St. George. Without prior warning he is turning at de facto free service into one you pay for and you are justified in finding an alternate exit from the platform.
You can rag on my system all you want, but the 4 basic rules include don't do anybody any harm, de facto free is free, I try to get my money's worth, loopholes are meant to be exploited. All definitions are strict.
>>>No, my criteria is if it won't do anybody any harm. SEPTA isn't running a special train just for me. If they did make a point of collecting fares I would just walk so they're not loosing my fare. Anyway, this situation is really covered by my "de facto free service" rules. I will protect myself from having to pay $4 for a service that is de facto free. Its like if some MTA employee stationed himself at the SIR station before St. George and demanded $1.50 from all the who got off there to beat paying at St. George. Without prior warning he is turning at de facto free service into one you pay for and you are justified in finding an alternate exit from the platform.
You can rag on my system all you want, but the 4 basic rules include don't do anybody any harm, de facto free is free, I try to get my money's worth, loopholes are meant to be exploited. All definitions are strict. <<<
100% pure, unadulterated BULLSHIT. Rationalize it all you want. Fare evasion is stealing, pure and simple, case closed.
Peace,
ANDEE
They never collect the fare between the centre city stations. If a conductor tries to shake me down I'm going to try to get out of paying what I feel is a de facto free service. The conductor can either let me go or put me off the train. Untill SEPTA makes an effort to collect CC fares or institutes a HLBR type of policy I'm going to use it as free. Just because you didn't think of it or because you are too much of a wuss to use it dosen't mean you should get all moral on me.
You forget that the conductor can also have you arrested at his/her discretion, esp. if you've pulled that stunt before.
I know you like making up your own rules for living - but can you see why other people, though, might question whether you are mature enough to understand and deal with the consequences?
What I said stands;
100% pure, unadulterated BULLSHIT. Rationalize it all you want. Fare evasion is stealing, pure and simple, case closed.
If everyone acted as you do we wouldn't have any mass transit at all.
Peace,
ANDEE
What about on the mattapan line in Boston There is a small fee inbound if you get off before ashmont however that fare is almost never charged. I Only ride that Line for fun and only get off to take photos if the fare were chareged I would just take the photos outbound. (i take them inbound sometimes because only the inbound platforms are covered.)
Yes, but the point is, you do not look to intentionally beat the fare.
Peace,
ANDEE
If everyone acted as you do we wouldn't have any mass transit at all.
So if everyone who needed to go between the three centre city stations hopped a free regional rail ride instead of taking the MFL SEPTA would go bankrupt?
JM (or anybody with his mindset) is not welcome in my house, or my car, or at my Museum.
That little rule "Thou shalt not steal" has NO loopholes. Nada.
If it isn't yours, you don't take it. Period. Paragraph.
Thank You. Same here. He really annoys me when he hides behind that "as long as it harms no one" mantra. I happen to subscribe to that theory but it does not incude farebeating and a number of other practices he supports.
He gives raifans a bad name
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank You. Same here. He really annoys me when he hides behind that "as long as it harms no one" mantra. I happen to subscribe to that theory but it does not incude farebeating and a number of other practices he supports.
He gives railfans a bad name
Peace,
ANDEE
If it isn't yours, you don't take it. Period. Paragraph.
What about stuff that's been abandonned? What about stuff nobody cares about any more? What about stuff you find on the street? There's a huge gray area between stuff that's your and stuff that's not yours.
And I'm sure you reserve the right for yourself (in your infinite wisdom) to define where the gray area is (and to hell with anyone who disagrees and might also have a claim on the property).
I air on the side of caution and I always default to any legal owner. It wouldn't be a gray area if something was clearly owned.
Really? What law school did you say you graduated from?
The school of law that says if you don't have a ticket you can buy one on board a SEPTA train for a $2 surcharge.
Yes, but you don't have the right to offer a bogus or previously used Amtrak stub- that indicates intent to steal. Different ballgame.
How are they going to prove I didn't just use it. Its undated and unreserved.
If they wanted to I'm sure they keep records of when it was used somewhere. They probably would not go through all the trouble to fink out but if they wanted to they could.
They could also use his postings here as proof of intent to defraud. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Then they should. The whole reason that this is allowed is because there is a flaw. They shouldn't complain that people are dishonest because they will be. If they don't put proof on tickets because they would lose more money doing that than they do from evaders who use undated stubs, then that's a business decision they have to live with. Every company knows that there are people getting around without paying, but sometimes they don't bother putting in security features because it isn't worth it.
Your observations that companies make cost-benefit decisions about security features is absolutely correct. If it were up to me, all tickets would be dated and timed, and punched or otherwise cancelled when used.
Sorry - I meant to say your observations ARE correct, not IS correct.
That wouldn't work on an LIRR-type system where the conductor must collect the ticket. The problem we're discussing is that the ticket is never collected. I think that people should be able to buy tickets in advance.
The way to solve this? GO POP! All stations would include Ticket Vending Machines and Validators, all tickets are to be validated and would allow use for a fixed time (the expiration time would be stamped), enough to travel between any two points. Random inspectors would check tickets to make sure that they are all valid, but that doesn't mean that everyone will have their tickets inspected. People caught ticketless would be fined a hefty sum. A person could still gamble, but this time the gamble wouldn't be the $2 onboard ticket purchase penalty, it would be the difference between the measly couple of bucks for the ticket and the hefty >$100 fine.
Inspectors would stay abreast of delays with radios, being lenient on recently expired tickets if they're caused by delays.
Broken machines would be solved via courtesy phone (and an 800/888/877/866 number). You would call the agent, leave your name, then when you receive your summons you would only mail the fare, not the fine. Or something like that.
Monthly and weekly tickets would still be punched so they can be of the better rolling date type (like Metrocard) as opposed to the fixed month or week type.
Your idea is a very reasonable one.
As I posted earlier, LA Metro's subway works like that. No faregates; you need the ticket to ride, and if a deputy sheriff demands to see your ticket and you don't have one, it's a $100 fine (approx.)...
I do not know the statistics for LA's operation: what % farebeating do they estimate under this system?
I do not know the statistics for LA's operation: what % farebeating do they estimate under this system?
Even if there is, the costs are recouped by the fact that this system is cheaper (since these are sheriff's deputies, they're already patrolling the system) and the $100 fine more than pays for the farebeaters that get away.
Also, in many cases I believe a farebeater will do it all or most of the time, so they'll get caught at some point and more than pay for their previous transgressions.
>>> it's a $100 fine (approx.) <<<
Would you believe $250.00? Getting caught once really spoils your day.
Tom
Getting caught once really spoils your day.
Or several days cause you have to appear in court (I think). My Lon Guyland friend hates those stupid NYC $15 drinking in public tickets because you have to appear in NYC court and getting there usually costs more than $15.
The way to solve this? GO POP! All stations would include Ticket Vending Machines and Validators, all tickets are to be validated and would allow use for a fixed time (the expiration time would be stamped), enough to travel between any two points. Random inspectors would check tickets to make sure that they are all valid, but that doesn't mean that everyone will have their tickets inspected.
IIRC, systems that use POP require the inspectors to check the tickets of everyone when they enter a car, rather than singling out some people for inspection. Otherwise, there could be discrimination claims.
The process in general is roving inspectors board randomly and ask to see tickets of ALL passengers. (San Jose, Sacto, SF MUNI Metro, Balto LRT, HBLR in my experience) Occasionally, the process in Sacto entails a delay where the inspection involves the constabulary and removal of offenders.
In SF, as POP has only recently been phased in, MUNI still fields booth agents at all 'underground' stations--often to be seen reading the paper.
(Stealing is ok if) "No, my criteria is if it won't do anybody any harm."
The trouble with that is you get to decide what the criteria are and you also decide for yourself if someone got hurt or not.
What if someone saw you doing whatever you do, decided that it was hurtful to him, and beat the living daylights out of you with a baseball bat, reasoning "Well, Jersey Mike isn't really being hurt. I'm helping him mend his ways. I have a strict criteria for these things." Whose "criteria" should we accept?
Since I, unlike you, am not an island to myself, I try to comply with life's regulations, and hope people will show me the same courtesy.
The trouble with that is you get to decide what the criteria are and you also decide for yourself if someone got hurt or not.
I feel that my judgement is good enough to make these decisions. That might not be good enough for you, but I do have a good sence of what is wrong and I follow it. I have had many oppurtunities to fare beat on transit systems where you are expected to pay, but I didn't because the expectation of payment was clear. On the other hand I'm not going to go out of my way to pay. If nobody takes my ticket, well I'm sorry, but I'm keeping it for next time.
AGAIN:
100% pure, unadulterated BULLSHIT. Rationalize it all you want. Fare evasion is stealing, pure and simple, case closed.
People like you give railfans a bad name.
Peace,
ANDEE
If they don't collect the fare there is no fare to evade.
Not true. In Los Angeles, for example, patrons on Metro Red Line subway trains must hold a valid purchased ticket to ride. There is no fare gate, so it is on the honor system.
At random times, a sheriff's deputy will demand to see your ticket. Your lack of one will result in a stiff fine, in addition to ejection from the subway. If you try to pull a stunt similar to those you've described on this site, or otherwise offer false information, the deputy will put you in handcuffs and give you a free ride to the men's central jail for booking.
And, by the way, the MTA and Amtrak police can do that too. All work on an honor system; if someone didn't collect your ticket it does not mean you didn't legally have to pay.
Look, Jersey Mike, maybe you should talk to an attorney about some of the things you pontificate about here (connected with my transit advocacy activities, I have!). Because, unless you're just posting all this stuff for fun and don't really do it, you're at risk for ending up in front of a judge with no leg to stand on. And it only takes one set of fines, bail bond fees, attorney's fees, etc. to wipe out any ill-gotten gains you might have from fare evasion. And no one will have any sympathy for you...
But SEPTA isn't working on the honour system. If it was I would buy a ticket.
Please explain how I would go to jail? If (big if) they did ask for a ticket I show them my undated Amtrak stub (provided I didn't have a current one). If (bigger if) they won't accept it I'll offer to get off at Suburban. If (biggest if) they threaten to call the cops I'd cough up $4.
SEPTA in the CC stations is like the SIRR outside of St. Goerge or the PATH from Harrison to Newark.
You can go the rest of your life paying through the nose, but I will continue to hunt out life's little bargains and freebies.
Yes. THAT MAKES SENSE.
I assume SEPTA is like NJT, MNR and LIRR: If you don't have a ticket, they collect the fare in cash and give you a receipt. If nobody comes to get cash from me, then THAT IS THEIR FAULT! Am I supposed to mail them a check? If a conductor comes on and asks for a ticket, I'll pay the money.
"But SEPTA isn't working on the honour system. If it was I would buy a ticket.
Please explain how I would go to jail? If (big if) they did ask for a ticket I show them my undated Amtrak stub (provided I didn't have a current one). If (bigger if) they won't accept it I'll offer to get off at Suburban. If (biggest if) they threaten to call the cops I'd cough up $4."
You're assuming they would always accept your counter-offers. They don't have to. If you don't have a ticket and the conductor doesn't accept your Amtrak stub he/she can decide you were trying to fare-beat. The conductor can refuse to accept your money, call the police and have you arrested. It's similar to a shoplifting case: A store owner catches you walking out with food or some other item you didn't pay for. If you pull out a $5 bill and offer to pay, the store owner has two options: he can accept your money and kick you out of the store, or he can call the police to arrest you and prosecute you. If you attempt to leave the store and physically resist, even if you pull out money, you can be charged with felony robbery. Some store owners will do just that over as little as $5; they are entirely within their rights. The real consequences have included jail time, fines, and probation. The same can happen on a train when a conductor accuses you of fare-beating.
The other thing you have to remember is that you have no constitutional right to use SEPTA or NJT or Amtrak- you have a privilege of doing so. Abuse that privilege by repeated fare-beating, and the carrier can consider you a trespasser and prosecute you for being on their property.
I think I've gone far enough explaining this stuff. Life offers many bargains and freebies, but what you engage in is theft. But I believe in personal responsibility - you go ahead and do what you want. You sound like the type who will have to experience things personally to truly understand...
Umm, you always have the option of paying on the train, along with a $2 surcharge. So as long as you're willing to pay when asked to do so, you're not going to jail.
Yes, but you do not have the option of lying to the conductor. It rarely happens, but if a conductor has reason to believe you are engaged in deliberate farebeating, then you can be arrested regardless of whether or not you offered to pay.
That's what several of you on this site fail to understand. You can get away with a lot of crap and think you're entitled to it because the conductor accepts your explanation. He/she does not have to - it's the transit agency's discretion, not yours. You're on their property.
And, by the way, the MTA and Amtrak police can do that too. All work on an honor system; if someone didn't collect your ticket it does not mean you didn't legally have to pay.
??? It sounds like you're referring to a POP system. There is nothing like that on any trains under the MTA's jurisdiction. The HBLR is the closest example to NYC.
You're confusing procedural and legal issues. Amtrak's failure to collect a ticket doesn't mean you didn't have to pay (it just means you got away with it and they didn't enforce it THIS TIME).
On the CC route SEPTA has not, dose not and in the near furute will not collect fares on the Centre City branch. Any conductor who does so is making a personal choice to give people a hard time amd I will resist such an attempted shakedown.
And that "resistance" is what will get you a free trip to jail.
And that "resistance" is what will get you a free trip to jail.
Bullshit.
Unless JerseyMike physically assaults the conductor in question, the conductor will just throw him out at the next stop, which is his destination. No conductor would delay a train to get a police officer for $4.
In fact, I think that this case wouldn't even be a misdemeanor, it's a civil affair between SEPTA and the defendant. Parking tickets are civil affairs between the owner of the road (even if it is a large city or a state) and the parker.
Oh, and if it is a misdemeanor, nobody goes to jail. People either get a ticket if they have ID, or they have to go down to the precinct, but no jail for $4.
Again, Pork, you're mixing up procedural with legal issues. What the conductor "would" do is not the same as what he "could" do. And whether or not to call a cop is the conductor's choice, not Jersey Mike's.
I have actually witnessed bus drivers flagging down a police car after a dispute with a passenger about fares. The police pulled the passenger off the bus, made him take his backpack off, and detained him. I didn't see what happened after that.
A bit of advice: Try not to be so authoritative about something you haven't researched properly. It's impulsive - and I did it when I was your age. Someone much more mature than I at the time was kind enough to point it out to me.
And whether or not to call a cop is the conductor's choice, not Jersey Mike's.
I did say it was the conductors, since I did say that no conductor would hold up the train waiting for the cops.
Try not to be so authoritative about something you haven't researched properly.
What are you talking about? And how do you know I didn't research it?
I do know that in most such cases, the conductor just throws the passenger off at the next station. The bus driver in your case saw a police officer or was near one.
Again you mention age.
Whether I post my observations without adequate research is not a symptom of age.
Experience has nothing to do with age.
You have people who work from the time they are fourteen, or from the time they are twenty-one, obviously the first one will have more experience.
When you have a car, experience has more to do with the mileage you've clocked and not the time that you've had a license and certainly not how old you are (take THAT graduated licensing proponents).*
And not doing adequate research on a topic is not a matter of experience EITHER. It's a function of a person's writing skills. Message boards usually emulate something closer to speech than to formal writing, and except in prepared formal speech, which is pretty much formal writing, comes with little research and more with personal observation and stories heard elsewhere. I'm not going to go to the petty crime section of a good library to research figures for this board.
And I do have an arsenal of arguments against (ALL against, none for) age discrimination, bias and restrictions, regardless of whether they are imposed by those older or those younger.
*All studies show that young drivers are worse because they have been driving for a shorter period of time. Any driving restrictions based on age should be replaced with driving restrictions based on time or mileage, or ideally, eliminated. The best way to gain experience and become a better driver is to drive more.
Yes, I did mention age. And experience is connected with age. Experience is also connected with the other things you just mentioned.
I never said there was anything wrong with being 18 (or any other age) - so enjoy it (I admit, sometimes I wonder what it would be like for me to be 18 again - and then I remember all the girls thought I was a first-class nerd and didn't want to talk to me. Don't want to go through that again!).
Eighteen is a great age, except that you have to be 21 to enter clubs (except those with 18 to party 21 to drink) and now in NY State, own a gun.
Drinking and casino gambling I couldn't care less about.
Oh yes, the higher under-25 car insurance rates that don't take into account in any way driving experience.
TRUTH: Younger drivers have faster reflexes and better sight and are therefore advantages. The lower judgement is a function of lack of experience which plagues someone who starts driving at 16 or 46.
I guess I'm in trouble then; I grew up a straphanger. Got my license at 16 but only put two hours behind the wheel since then...
"*All studies show that young drivers are worse because they have been driving for a shorter period of time. Any driving restrictions based on age should be replaced with driving restrictions based on time or mileage, or ideally, eliminated. The best way to gain experience and become a better driver is to drive more. "
Actually, they don't. Data collected in California over the last 10 years pretty convincingly shows that a lower AGE has a higher correlation with accident frequency than having few years of EXPERIENCE does. The data has come as something of a surprise to those who pushed through regulations in the late 1980's that require auto insurance in California to be rated on EXPERIENCE rather than AGE, and that law has had some rather unintended consequences (which go well beyond my already way off-topic post).
CG
Ironic, we have several levels of government that choose to pass legislation based on AGE . These laws cover operation of motor vehicles, consuming controlled substances (drinking) smoking marriage , gambleing and serving in the armed forces.
For the same reasons we seem to have two different levels of age requirements.
You can't drink under the age of 21 , because you judgement is not mature enough to know whats right for you.
You can enlist in the military though and possible loose life or limb because you not mature enough to know whats right for you.
Military recruiters seek out young minds, to lure into the service because legally the recruit can be wooed. Historically the military preferred the 17,18 or 19 yearlod to the 21,22 or 23 draftee.
Maturity, plane and simble. the few years older draftee would think just alittle more before following a stupid idea or order from someone with more rank but far less brains. the 20 year old NCO.
The laws in this nation must bring about an equalization of rights and responsibilities. It will not be simple or easy. It will be complex and demanding.
Now that women can have positions in combat roles, all women must be subject to the draft and register. Otherwise it is sexual bias! Thats not to say all women will be subject to being in a combat role, but must be subject to the draft equally as men.
avid
PS take a train to boot camp.
That's a great post. 100% agreement!
(sorry if I sounded too much like Salaam)
No its not. If you are mature enough to serve your country you can drink on base (where you should be most of the time anyway).
I had always felt if you were old enough to be drafted you were old enough to drink. Period. There are MANY who are well over 21, some even in the "golden" years that let drink get them in trouble, usually DUI's.
With the age of majority becoming 18 with the vote I felt like the right thing had been done..likewise adding responsibility for oneself in legal matters.
Then the feds come up with ordering states to make 21 the drinking age or you don't get your highway funds. Which were paid by locals every time they buy gasoline meaning fuel taxes. Those who want to drink will do so anyway. Montana for one has endless records of DUI's for those under 21 and MIP's...minor in possession. Lots of money from fines.
Selling alcohol to under 21 or cigarettes/chew, etc under 18 is unlawful transaction with a child.. even if they're a day short. But abortions are a woman's right... so a 12 year old girl is a woman by law. You can get 20 years for , you know what..a day short of being legal. But they're a woman for an abortion and even parents don't have to know?
The law is hypocrisy and used as the system wants. I'll keep my feelings about crime and self defense out.
On the plus side Take The Train to Boot Camp: For my brief naval career [at 18 I was not one to be molded as they wished..I meant well initially..hence the word brief] our travels were:
DL&W ferry to Hoboken; on old red steel Pennsy Pullman on the rear of the Lake Cities Ltd. [1961]to Chicago, including meals in the diner; North Shore Line to Great Lakes. Likewise ongoing enjoyment of watching the North Shore trains run by while there. Some things were good.
But they're a woman for an abortion and even parents don't have to know?
If the woman wants her parents to know, she can call them or talk to them.
The parents could be nice pro-lifers, pro-life-ruiners that is. They could block the abortion and force the woman to have an unwanted child and raise it by herself. Not good for the child or the mother.
The point was that for this purpose they treat such as a woman; for all other purposes they're a child, needing parental authorization if under 18.Even to the point of giving an aspirin, treating a minor wound , etc. Abortion is a surgery. I'm keeping my own feelings out; my idea was an illustration.
You raise a very important contradiction here. Of course since your post evens mentions the topic of abortion, you risk being branded a right-weing fundamentalist zealot and other things - but it is an excellent point.
-cordially,
turnstiles
How is he a right-wing zealot? He didn't mention anything either way.
I didn't say you did, and obviously I wouldn't call him that either. However, even mentioning such a contradiction would be not sit well with many folks who strongly support abortion.
Sorry, in the last post I thought ou thought that I said that you called him a zealot or other things. IN any case, I don't think he is either.
In the days when the proposed ERA (equal rights amendment) was still alive, one of my reasons for supporting it was the belief that it would lead to the elimination of the Selective Service and of any possibility of reviving a draft. No one, I figured, would support the drafting of women - and the drafting of men only would violate the new amendment. But since the amendment didn't pass, there is presumably no constitutional argument against a draft of men only. But hopefully our country will have the sense not to reinstate a draft in any form.
P.S. For a transit connection to the draft, please see the "Elvis and the LIRR" page at forgotten-ny.com!
Congress should stop imposing seven year limits on amendment ratification. Since there are at least thirty-eight states that would need to approve an amendment, a seven year deadline is unrealistic. It killed both the ERA and the DC Representation amendment in the 80s.
Thank god the Twenty-first amendment was ratified in time. It was approved by conventions and not by state legislatures like the other twenty-six amendments.
Congress should stop imposing seven year limits on amendment ratification.
Thwey don't want amendments comming back 200 years later like amendment 23(?) did. there are still others out there to.
27th was the only one.
The congressional pay amendment is a GOOD one.
And all of the proposed amendments were proposed* before the 27th was ratified.
*Approved by the appropriate 2/3 of both houses.
Personally, I think 7 years is a good time frame. I mean, times change, and just because something was approved 20 years prior against the public's will, whereas now it fits the public but not the legislature; that, in my mind is not grounds to amend the Constitution. It was made deliberately difficult on purpose, and I hardly think popular ratification of a legislative bill from 200 years earlier is what those early Philadelphians had in mind.
In Israel, everybody has to go into the army. Women have to serve for a shorter period however.
Either of two options would be more democratic:
1) Allow the government to make restrictions on sufferage (within limits) as it saw fit, based on age, criminal record, etc.; and institute mandatory voting for all as in Australia;
or 2) Open sufferage to any age, convicted felons, permanent resident aliens, etc., with no compulsory voting. Those who are mature enough and care about the issues and would vote.
America's voter turnout rates are a disgrace to the term democracy, and are only gettting worse.
Voting , mandatory for anyone receiving Social Security Checks,
For at least the first five years upon reaching a persons majority.(18 birthday) Receiving any tax return state or federal, any tax rebate or relief.
avid
>>> Voting , mandatory for anyone receiving Social Security Checks, For at least the first five years upon reaching a persons majority.(18 birthday) Receiving any tax return state or federal, any tax rebate or relief. <<<
Please explain to me what is so good about mandatory voting. If someone does not care enough about the issues or the persons running for election to vote, why force him/her to vote? The result would be many brainless votes for the politician who could afford to get the most name recognition without regard to his message. I think the republic is safer with only 40% of those eligible to vote, but really caring about the results, voting than to have those 40% voting and also have the other 60% who don't care about the results picking names that look nice at the moment they are in the polling booth.
Tom
Amoung the choices would be D) NONE OF THE ABOVE or Vote Denied
This would at least send a message to all parties or proposals that a segment of the voting public was dissatisfied with some or all aspects of a contest. If big enough, a rerun would be necessary. That a certain portion of the voters would be casting, regardless of special interests. A new broad based specia;l interest group would have to be pandered to.
avid
Careful now. Some elderly people in Florida will mistake that D) None of the above for the Democrat Pary :)
Shawn.
>>> Amoung the choices would be D) NONE OF THE ABOVE or Vote Denied <<<
Choosing "none of the above" still requires a political choice. The truly apathetic voter who is there only because he is coerced by government, will not make that choice, but will vote for a name he recognizes, or perhaps the first name in each category. My feeling remains that if a potential voter does not care enough to cast a vote, forcing him to vote (as in the old Soviet system) does not provide a better representative government.
Tom
You are right. Perhaps a bonus of some sort, to encourage voters. that and a reduction of time allowed for candidates to campaign.
Maybe voter apathy is do to over exposure.
avid
Guess that proves what kind of crap is running the government regardless of party. Funny we hear of all the issues and the things the majority are disgusted with and the new people are no better than the old after they're elected.The crap we wanted done away with carries on and more useless junk comes up. No wonder so few care and the majority of those who vote seem to vote against a candidate rather than for the one they vote "for".
If the transit system fails to collect a fare, it is NEGLIGENCE on the part of the transit system. The transit system, not the passenger should be punished for this. If the Commuter RR had problems collecting fare, they could change the system to something more efficient.
I disagree, Pork. And I hope when you acquire a little maturity and perspective (the kind you don't have at 18, if I recall your age correctly), you may come to understand what I'm saying.
This time I'm going to avoid insults, and just call you an IGNORANT AGEIST.
WHAT THE ---- DOES MY AGE HAVE TO DO WITH IT?
I don't feel the need to justify my concerns to someone who chooses to dismiss someone's ideas exclusively on the fact that they've been on this Earth for a shorter time.
On this board, ages are not evident, the only way we know ages is we mention them, how do I know you're not snot-nosed thirteen year old who's compensating for his age by insulting others of low age?
If I never mentioned my age, you would never know to spew any ageist S---.
It's perfectly OK to be 18, Pork - I was there, too, once. But no matter how intensely or productively you live your life (and I'm sure you do just fine), there's a kind of perspective and maturity that you cannot gain without the benefit of time. You don't have it yet (that's OK -you're not supposed to have it yet). You will have it; you're getting it one day at a time. Just keep the ears and eyes open and don't get defensive about things.
I am still horrifically angry, such that I regret masking the words and going against my principles regarding them.
In any case, if the LIRR (example RR)can't handle the capacity, that's their fault. They can and should go to POP. This way the ticket expires and cannot be reused, examined or not. However if no conductor bothers even TRYING to collect tickets, why should the RR get anything? In REAL LIFE, if you don't do your job well, your company loses money and you get fired, if the company screws up, it gets acquainted with Chapter 11. The RR should not be immune from having to do a GOOD JOB.
Besides, if the RR overcharged me, they wouldn't worry a second about it, why should I worry about them? Maybe I should, I don't think that they're ageist fools, since they have child and student discounts.
I agree with you that the LIRR bears operational responsibility for appropriately collecting fares. Conductors can and should be accountable for this, no question about it. You have every right to be dissatisfied with LIRR if their inefficient fare collection results in higher fares, among other consequences.
But that does not mean, legally, that you can claim a right not to pay the fare, even if you think they are overcharging you. You can (and should!) write a letter of protest to LIRR, and you can choose not to patronize the railroad (they are punished by losing customers and revenue. The leadership looks good when ridership is up, not down).
But that does not mean, legally, that you can claim a right not to pay the fare, even if you think they are overcharging you. You can (and should!) write a letter of protest to LIRR, and you can choose not to patronize the railroad (they are punished by losing customers and revenue. The leadership looks good when ridership is up, not down).
I'm not agreeing with JerseyMike's stand on active fare evasion. The Center City services of SEPTA are defacto free because nobody collects a ticket. I can choose not to buy a ticket and intend to pay in cash when collection time comes up and can do that anywhere (sometimes with an appropriate penalty, which is always in Center City Philadelphia). If a conductor came up to collect tickets, I'd give him four dollars (or whatever the fare + penalty is).
Yes, that is correct.
-------
When I was a kid (we're talking prior to sixth grade here, at least) I once took a small toy ambulance from a store by smuggling it out through a restroom window, on a dare from a friend. I got away with it, and the store obviously survived despite what happened. I thought I was clever as all hell.
What made me regret it later was how dumb that "exploit" looked to anyone I had respect for. But I guess I was stupid enough to have to do it, to learn from it. Not an educational method I would condone recommend to anyone or their kids...
"De facto free"=nobody is watching?
Do you know how often I've been ripped off by SEPTA? Drop your coins in the slot too fast, and it doesn't count them all. It sucks when all you brought was exact change and then you have to stick in another dollar to pay a nickel. Suburban ticket machine out of order? Sorry, you still have to pay the $2 surcharge because the old lady thought ahead and bought hers hours ago when the machine was working, why coudn't you?
I'm not saying this justifies cheating SEPTA, as I would never try to evade a fare by slipping by between CC stations on RR (but then I also wouldn't take RR; the subway's cheaper!); I'm just saying that SEPTA is hardly getting the short end of the stick.
Boy, do old folks ride the high horses these days. I suppose you all live the perfect lives, eh? Tell me how it is since I most likely don't have any maturity, me being fifteen and all. So what Jersey Mike has found a way to avoid paying FOUR FRICKIN' DOLLARS!!!!!????
More power to him. When he goes around pissing on the seats, crapping on the consoles, and setting fire to the cars, then you all can rake him through the coals. Until then, get over it! These TAs and RRs make billions of dollars and I doubt missing out on FOUR dollars a ride from ONE PERSON will hurt their bottom line. For every person who uses JM's system, there are 50,000 people who don't so I seriously doubt that these companies bottom lines are hurting. I hate how old people go off on us young people as if they were perfect angels in this world back in their heydey. HELLO!!!!! You did bad deeds too! Probably worse than mere fare evasion. Maybe four dollars was alot back in the 40s and 50s but now all you can get with it is a piece of tin and a happy meal so get over it and continue having your unrealistic dreams about the Redbirds getting a second wind and the R142s being the next coral reefs! Just like the R142s, you may hate us, but us young people are the future so live with it!
Nobody hates young people, Anon... But the fact that somebody makes a billion dollars (and wouldn't miss the "friggin $4) is missing the point. Either you conduct yourself honestly or you don't.
Jersey Mike may feel justified stealing from the transit system. But do you know for a fact that he would not also steal from you? That's part of the problem I have with it. People who think they are justified in stealing from big companies and transit authorities etc. etc. (and they can be 15 years old or 50 years old, age doesn't matter there!) give you no guarantees they'll respect you any more - after all, they're deciding for themselves whether you deserve to be stolen from. Do you really want someone to treat you that way? Do you want to treat people that way?
That's the point.
I'm RTS 2150 first of all. Second, I wouldn't put myself in the moronic position that TAs and RRs do and let someone steal from me. JM is not robbing the the TAs with a gun or sticking something in an overcoat. He's taking advantage of a very lax security system which is the fault of the company which implements it. Perhaps if the TAs had a better security system that had been in effect for thirty years or more, JM would not have grown with the idea that it's easy to get around it and most likely had just lived with it. But, alas that's not the case. If a grocery store allowed you to scan the items yourself and then had you walk outside to pay in a little booth with no security, how may people do you think would actually pay? Not many. This is the same basic system TAs and RRS are running and unless they're going to fix it, they're going to keep getting taken advantage of. Survival of the fittest. If the TAs don't want to fix the system we shouldn't waste our days here browbeating someone who decided to beat a mediocre system. Especially when they're Redbirds to be saved.
"JM is not robbing the the TAs with a gun or sticking something in an overcoat. He's taking advantage of a very lax security system which is the fault of the company which implements it."
Theft is theft, regardless of how you perpetrate it. I can rob a bank without a gun - bank tellers are told to hand over money without an argument if a robber merely writes instructions on a piece of paper. But that still gets you five years federal prison.
If the TA is lax that's regrettable. JM is, nonetheless, stealing. It's a matter of intent and principle. Again, more than one of you is missing the point...
For one accusing someone of missing points, so many of mine are whizzing by you like a crowded X68 on Queens Blvd. See, I NEVER said he wasn't stealing. I was simply stating that he wasn't doing anything particularly nefarious like robbing a bank or shoplifting expensive items. Secondly, I know what's wrong and right. What he's doing his wrong. But who cares?! You've probably engaged in a thousand acts of sin already just this day and I'm getting ready to engage in some later tonight so what's the point of beating this guy up for something practically harmless? Also, my last point is, who cares?! When JM rapes a woman, kills her, drags her corspse in the train, THEN tries to beat the fare, I'll rake him throught the coals as you guys do. But for now, I feel many of you need to preach about some more important crimes of society than petty ones like this. Or better yet, stop preaching and talk about trains! That's a radical new idea!
So, in other words, you feel you have enough wisdom to decide what should be addressed by the legal system, and what should be ignored.
For your information, it was the crackdown on farebeating in NYC's subways that was partly responsible for a reduction in violent crime on the subways. Farebeating is a "quality of life" issue - and Guilani and the NYPD brass got it exactly right when they pointed out that farebeaters often do other things society doesn't want them to do. Farebeating today is less of a problem than it was 20 years ago - and a lot of other problems got better along with it.
>>>So, in other words, you feel you have enough wisdom to decide what should be addressed by the legal system, and what should be ignored.<<<
Wow, you must have a lot of little crevices in your ass to pull this shit from. Where the hell did you get that? But, I shall answer a question with a question. So, after all of your incessant and unnecessary posting, you feel you have the right to preach to someone even though your preaching will do no good, bore many, and make you look like a holier than thou jackass?
>>>For your information, it was the crackdown on farebeating in NYC's subways that was partly responsible for a reduction in violent crime on the subways.<<<
Partly you say? How much? Four percent?
>>>Farebeating is a "quality of life" issue -<<<
So, what you're saying is that the well off don't fare beat? Hey, maybe the rich don't shoplift either! Maybe all those white gitls with those 5,000 dollar dresses on are quite poor! (end sarcasm)
That quote is BULLSHIT (not mine, the one I posted from you) of the worst and most disgusting kind. If it had a color it's be a sickly yellow and green and would have corn in it.
>>>and Guilani and the NYPD brass got it exactly right when they pointed out that farebeaters often do other things society doesn't want them to do.<<<
Okay, okay, I think I have it now. Since farebeaters are thieves and often do other nefarious things, these young teenage shoplifting girls must be behind many of America's unsolved crimes! Forget the Ramsey's, Veronica killed Jon Benet! It wasn't OJ, it was Jessica! (end sarcasm)
>>>Farebeating today is less of a problem than it was 20 years ago - and a lot of other problems got better along with it.<<<
Whoa, WAY to kill your argument there junior. See, by reading your insane preaching, I'd believe that Jersey Mike was the unscrupulous leader of a gang of viscious farebeaters, slashing throats and raping girls wherever they go! Who knew that fare beating was actually down. Why don't you just pretend JM never posted he beats the system so we can all go on with our lives without having you trying to preach to all us youngin's and hoodlums of society. 'Kay?
"So, what you're saying is that the well off don't fare beat? Hey, maybe the rich don't shoplift either! Maybe all those white gitls with those 5,000 dollar dresses on are quite poor! (end sarcasm)"
I made no distinction between rich and poor - you did. Similarly, I didn't mention race in that posting - you did. If I were to mention race, it would be to say that poor people in areas of predominantly African American or other racial minorities suffered the most from crime, and benefitted greatly from a combination of community reinvestments (like new subways and supermarkets) and police attention to quality-of-life issues.
"Whoa, WAY to kill your argument there junior. See, by reading your insane preaching..."
I'm not preaching at all. I'm responding to your preaching. I'm glad you have an opinion, and I do want to read it, but all the four letter words and obscenities and name-calling keep tripping you up. Do you see me addressing you that way?
Why don't you take a deep breath, calm down, and then try posting again?
If a grocery store allowed you to scan the items yourself and then had you walk outside to pay in a little booth with no security, how may people do you think would actually pay? Not many.
Actually, that idea has been tried, at least on an experimental basis. There have to be spot receipt checks - which have to be publicized - for it to work. You might say it's the same concept as transit POP fare systems.
Some stores (like Cosco and Micro Center) are suspicious enough to require receipt checks even after people go through a conventional manned cash-register line.
I just self-check-outed myself today at the Super Foodmart. It was much faster than the lines, they have a cashier watching and its really fast. Basically its as hard (easy) to steal from the self checkout as it is from the normal checkout. I have used the self checkout 2 times and both time the machine has shorted me change (design flaw in the bill return system, I had to complain both times, but some ppl might not catch it) so as you can see we live in an adverserial system where everybody tries to take advantage of everybody else. In the end the foolish will perish and the clever will live to procriate.
Ay, JM, your not gonna breed on us, PLEASE
So you have the same opinion as Jerky Mike; if you see something on the back of a truck unattended, it's yours to take? Do you also leave your door unlocked? If so, I'd like to know where I can help myself to some free stuff.
Just because it CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be done.
-Hank
Hey, save some for me!
I said I don't care what he does and it shouldn't be an issue. Never did I say I have the same opinion or would do the same thing. Why can't you all understand that? If I saw something unattended on the back of a truck I'd just pass it by and say someone's going to get their ass fired if that ends up missing. I don't steal. If JM wants to farebeat, so be it. We're not the moral police here. We're not here to beat someone over the head about what they do. Last I checked this was SubTalk, not MoralityTalk.
If I saw something unattended on the back of a truck I'd just pass it by and say someone's going to get their ass fired if that ends up
missing. I don't steal.
There was an interesting story in either the Post or the News (can't remember which) a week or so ago, about a man who saw a Playstation 2 box in the back of an unlocked truck. He figured that even if he somehow got caught, it'd only be a misdemeanor, so he reached in and grabbed the box. He then realized it was empty, and was about to put it back, but suddenly got a big surprise when he was grabbed by a couple of undercover cops. Turned out this was a sting operation. The guy got a bigger surprise when he found out that New York law makes stealing anything from a truck with commercial plates a felony, regardless of value. Then he got the biggest surprise of all when he found out that as someone with two prior felony convictions, he faced up to life imprisonment under a "three-strikes" provision. He ended up getting seven or eight years.
The jerk deserved whatever he got.
I agree. That's why I don't steal. I would've laughed had I seen the whole thing. That's the kind of material they need on SNL.
Its shit like that that makes me have an unfavourable impression of cops. If there isn't crime to stop they go and create crime just to throw people in jail. Just like Lee Ermey said in full metal "If it wasn't for people [who don't lock their stuff up] ther'd be no thievery in this world." Just like if everybody carried guns there'd be no crime. Humans should be encouraged to take advantage of other people's mistakes. Its this constant babying that makes us weak. I always keep track of my stuff. If I don't I expect it not to be there anymore because some other Human profited from my moment of weakness.
. "If there isn't crime to stop they go and create crime just to throw people in jail."
Nobody told him to steal the item. He did that all by himself - let him take the responsibility for it.
"Humans should be encouraged to take advantage of other people's mistakes. Its this constant babying that makes us weak. I always keep track of my stuff. If I don't I expect it not to be there anymore because some other Human profited from my moment of weakness."
I was going to respond to that, but it's so childish, almost infantile, that it almost doesn't deserve a response. I will point out that this philosophy was central to Adolf Hitler's philosophy of weeding out the weak from society so as to make the master race stronger.
I've met people who espouse as you do, JM; every one was a coward, worthy only of my pity. There was nothing strong about them.
From a previous post (the railroad stories you told, which were pretty good) you have to be at least in your forties. Isn't it time to grow up?
Those aren't my stories. I thought I got to the point there I could stop having to disclaim them. I am re-posting them w/ permission of the writer who is an Illinios Central engineer named Tutch. I am 20.
And there would have been no crime there if the cops hadn't put the box out there effectivly w/ a "steal me" sign. Now we have another prisoner being housed at taxpayer expence.
I saw a TV sitting in front of a PC Richard. Funny, it's still there. It had a steal me sign? For 20, you have a hell of a lot of maturing to do. Either that, or you're already an extremist.
-Hank
Farebeating is to mass transit as shoplifting is to retail stores.
-Hank
Hooray! Somebody who gets it!
What wasn't to get?
-Hank
As republicans are to tax cuts.
avid
Eloquently put Mr Eisenstein.
Peace,
ANDEE
Eloquently put Mr Eisenstein.
Peace,
ANDEE
Okay, okay, okay. But let me let you in on a little secret. Shhh. don't tell anyone but um, confidentially speaking...
I DON'T GIVE A DAMN!!!!! WHEN WILL YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT!!!!! I DON'T CARE!!!!! LET JM DO AS HE WANTS!!!!! YOUR PREACHING WILL DO NOTHING BUT WASTE TIME!!!!! JUST IN CASE YOU ALL DON'T GET IT, HERE IT IS ONE MORE TIME!!!!! I DON'T CARE!!!!!
Thank you.
>>> I DON'T GIVE A DAMN!!!!! WHEN WILL YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT!!!!! <<<
Humble apologies from all of us who did not realize that everything posted on the board had to please you.
Tom
Its only farebeating if there is a demand for payment and you ignore the demand or refuse the demand. If no demand is made of if you can trick an employee to resind the demand for payment then its not farebeating. On the SETPA CC route no demand for payment is ever made of me. No turnstyles, no POP signs, no conductors asking me. I'm not farebeating because there is no fare to beat. Plain and simple.
>>> if you can trick an employee to resind the demand for payment then its not farebeating <<<
That sure looks like fraud to me. But I guess it is not shoplifting if you can convince a store employee that you brought the item that you are stealing into the store with you.
Tom
That sure looks like fraud to me. But I guess it is not shoplifting if you can convince a store employee that you brought the item that you are stealing into the store with you.
You would have to convince them before/while you went through the check out because that is the demand to pay and using it as an excuse to get away w/ the shoplifting wouldn't count. Better examples would be to use use products and then take them back for refund or complain about they for bonus goodies (complaints made up of course). I do not do this stuff cause its not worth all the effort, but I have no problem w/ people who do try.
A well-placed surveillance camera often picks up people who take things off shelves and try to "return them." But these people are winners - they get free transportation to jail, a free meal in jail, a bed to sleep on, so it's pretty good (except in Maricopa County, where Sheriff Joe Arpaio (spelling of last name?) will charge you for your stay.
No no! You buy something, use it, then abuse a "satisfaction guarenteed" return policy.
I hope you never go into business. It would show you how wrong you are, and will prove your theories a miserable failure, as you are.
-Hank
The SEPTA policy regarding people "with Amtrak tickets" being allowed to ride free between the Center City Philadelphia Regional Rail stations is fairly vague, at least as it is generally expressed. There is no statement about time limits or the need for dated tickets. So he is probably not violating the rules by keeping an old Amtrak ticket stub and showing it whenever necessary. If SEPTA wants to make clear rules regarding what tickets are or are not acceptable to use in this regard, they should do so.
That policy clearly refers to a valid ticket intended for current use, not a ticket stub for a ride you took last week. You're playing with words, nothing more.
If you use a one-use ticket on any carrier knowingly more than once, it's theft.
We know he likes to root through people's garbage...
-Hank
Thanks for the support RTS 2150. All SEPTA is loosing is $1.50 because if they enforced it I would take the MFL which takes me where I want to go (no walking) and only costs 1.50. FYI The $4 included a $2 on train surcharge. Its not really a $4 fare.
And...The number of times I have actually abused this "free" service can be counted on my hands because the only reason to use these trains is to get from Market East to 30th St. station. So when I use it I usually have an Amtrak stub. In fact many times I would have been unfairly charged because I was going to 30th to catch an Amtrak, but I hadn't yet bought my tickets. Or I was going to catch an NJT train.
Boy, do old folks ride the high horses these days. I suppose you all live the perfect lives, eh? Tell me how it is since I most likely don't have any maturity, me being fifteen and all. So what Jersey Mike has found a way to avoid paying FOUR FRICKIN' DOLLARS!!!!!????
More power to him. When he goes around pissing on the seats, crapping on the consoles, and setting fire to the cars, then you all can rake him through the coals. Until then, get over it! These TAs and RRs make billions of dollars and I doubt missing out on FOUR dollars a ride from ONE PERSON will hurt their bottom line. For every person who uses JM's system, there are 50,000 people who don't so I seriously doubt that these companies bottom lines are hurting. I hate how old people go off on us young people as if they were perfect angels in this world back in their heydey. HELLO!!!!! You did bad deeds too! Probably worse than mere fare evasion. Maybe four dollars was alot back in the 40s and 50s but now all you can get with it is a piece of tin and a happy meal so get over it and continue having your unrealistic dreams about the Redbirds getting a second wind and the R142s being the next coral reefs! Just like the R142s, you may hate us, but us young people are the future so live with it!
Woodcrest parking isn't free but it only costs $1 for the day (payable in COIN only). But I agree it's the best way into Philly. Take the NJ Turnpike to Exit 4, cut over to I-295 south, go a few miles. There's an exit right into Woodcrest PATCO parking lot. When Simon Billis and I went to Philly back in November this is what we did. Much faster than taking the train, gave us time to cover more of the trolley lines.
Take the NJ Turnpike to Exit 4, cut over to I-295 south, go a few miles.
Woodcrest PATCO is at exit 31 of 295; Turnpike exit 4 is at 36, so it's 5 miles. Interchanges from the Turnpike to 295 are also available at exits 7 and 5.
I thought that there was some Free parking at Woodcrest. Most PATCO stations have free parking. Collingswood is %100 free. Haddonfield has about 10 free spots. Woodcrest is a huge complex with about 5 different "lots". I know that many of them cost $1, but I thought there were some free lots far from the station. For example there's a lot across a little bridge over the Cooper river on the east end of the complex and I believe that is free. Anyway, free or not it only costs a buck (dollar coin only) for basically as long as you want (I notice some long term parkers at the Haddonfield station from time to time. Their cars are there for weeks at a time with snow piled on them.
No, it's not for as long as you want, it's $1 per weekday (weekends free). If you're going to be parked after 3 AM you are supposed to notify the PATCO police and make advance payment for the amount of time you plan to leave the vehicle there, otherwise you may be towed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought it was 24 hour parking. I also don't believe its free on weekends any more. They make you cough up a buck 24/7.
I also don't believe its free on weekends any more.
You may be right about that - it's been almost two years since I've parked there. As for it being 24-hour parking, it's a fixed 24-hour period, 3 AM to 3 AM (there is a provision for folks who work the night shift, though, so they don't have to pay twice - don't remember how that works since I've never used it).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Several years ago my wife and I planned to go to NYC on a Friday and return Sunday. I called PATCO, explained the situation, and asked if I could leave my car in the Lindenwold lot. They replied negatively, so we got someone to drive us to 30th Street on Friday and pick us up Sunday. PATCO lost 4 fares. Scroom!
I intend to take NJT train 4608 from Lindenwold (7:36 AM) to 30th Street (8:16) and meet Pete coming off #181 at 9:30. If you know the ropes, you could probably arrive at Woodcrest by 8:30 and get to 30th Street by 9:30 if you want to join us there and expect to get in that early. Decisions concerning [PATCO/SEPTA transfer + tokens] vs. day pass are to be considered if you are interested in conserving money. email Jersey Mike or me for specific instructions if you wish.
Bob, the other lard ass
His current plan would require one 2 ride transfer and 2 tokens for a trand total of $4.10. A day pass costs $5 and you have to go out of your way to get one.
Right. The question was whether he would consider a more involved itinerary, which could include exit and re-entry for lunch and a regional rail ride (Norristown or Fern Rock, e.g.), which could make the day pass (available at 8th & Market) more economical.
Since I'm going to be leaving home at 8, I don't expect to be there before ten. I could leave at 7:30, be there at 9:30.
Geez, this get's on my nerves. mfor 80 more cents, go to Norristown. There is nothing that interesting on the rt 100 line from 69th Street to Bryn Mawr. The more interesting parts are after Radnor and County Line, particularly near Norristown. You can even see the grade at which the Strafford line used to connect. From Norristown you could ride the R6 into town, and then do whatever.
Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. Now I can't decide! I will arrive on train 181 @ 9:30 am to 30th St. Station. I'd be up for any railfan itinerary, if anyone wants to join. The last train to HAR is 8:17pm, but I'd prefer to take an earlier one. There are 5 trains departing after the noon hour, any one of which I could take. Email me, or post here, if you (are fortunate to be able to take the day off and) want ot meet, so we can coordinate a time and place. I suggest: beside the information booth in the middle of the main concourse at 30th St. Station. Or I can meet anyone a later in the day at another location, after 'fanning by myself for a while.
Incidentally, I'm on my way to a members weekend at the Rockhill Trolley Museum. The hot topic these days is that we are making preparations for our final track extension to the end of our portion of the EBT Shade Gap ROW -- over 30 years in the making!
I'd be very happy to join you, but unfortunately I'm going away this
weekend. Anyway, for future reference, if you or anyone are looking
for a "railfan partner" in the Philly area, don't hesitate to drop
me a line, as I'm looking for someone in the Philly area as well to
join me when I do my railfanning. I agree that railfanning with
someone is safer as well as more fun than doing it alone.
I'll sure keep it in mind. I hope to travel to PA a few times a year and will try to stopover in Philly on the way as many times as I can. I know this was late-notice, but I wasn't sure of my itinerary until the last minute. Had I known earlier, I would have formulated a specific route and had Dave post something in Upcoming Events. See you next time.
Does anyone have an idea when the last PCC's will operate?Several other railfans from Pittsburgh would like to go up.I will appreciate any information possible! Thanks Louis R.
"Does anyone have an idea when the last PCC's will operate?Several other railfans from Pittsburgh would like to go up.I will appreciate any information possible! Thanks Louis R."
I heard "possibly" this April. That of course is due to change as per NJT. If you want to ride them, don't chance it. Get here ASAP! Then when you find out when the last run is, come again for a "last day of service"
Unlike last run of subway cars and subway lines are, a last run of a Newark City Subway PCC will only fit so many railfans!! This should be interesting knowing their popularity and scores of metropolitan area railfans who want to catch that last ride.
If anybody has a new date out there, let's here it. Other than that, stay tuned to this site for any outbreaking news.
Bill "Newkirk"
Just heard on the news tonight that a woman was raped in the Canal street bridge station early this morning, by a 15 year old male.
That passageway isn't that safe, it always creeped me out. I guess there weren't workers around then.
Also there were articles from this weekend in the Daily News on Corona declining because landlords now rent by person, which is leading to overcrowding of Mexican immigrants. When riding the 7 I now do see alot of Mexican stuff, especially around Junction and 103rd street.
Also a councilwoman is upset with a developer, over what has come to the former Queens Savings bank location. A cheap, flea market has opened in the bank building, but the developer named Chen, said that this was just temporary. While the market does well, when I saw it and it did look like a disgrace. A bank building deserves better than that.
<>
I heard on the radio that virgina is trying to pass a law against people sleeping anywhere but in a bedroom in an attempt to prevent immigrants from squeezing rather unsafely into apartments.
Something should be done about it... i don't know what the answer is though... helping the mexican economy so they all stop flooding the country? Building 'the great wall of texas' along the border? deporting as many illegals as can be rounded up???
Something should be done... this city's (and it's subways, hence) are getting overcrowded to a dangerous point.
-Joe
There's overcrowding and you think deporting people will solve that? That's incredibly stupid. Is the subway going to have rules has to who can ride it so natural born Americans won't be as uncomfortable? Hello 1950s. The INS currently has an unoffical policy of letting illegal immigrants stay here because of the tight labor market. They are willing to do jobs that most lazy Americans won't do unless they paid way more than what the job is worth. Where I live, we have lots of Mexicans and other Hispanics (and I'm Brazilian, but born in the US) and I welcome them here with open arms. How is Virgina planning on enforcing that law? The only way they can is to get a search warrant, but there's no reason to give out a search warrant for the only purpose of seeing where everybody is sleeping. Bye bye basic civil rights if that is passed.
I wonder if white Virginians will be arrested for letting guests sleep on their couches in the living room?
I wonder if white Virginians will be arrested for letting guests sleep on their couches in the living room?
I don't know about White Virgians, but West Virginans will be arrested for sleeping in rooms without wheels beneath them.
That's why others in the legislature are calling the proposed law absurd. Sometimes, legislators announce controversial legislation just to bring attention to a problem, not to actually get the law passed, just like when tols or fares are intended to be raised. They say it'll be higher initially, and we are lulled into accepting a lower increase.
-Hank
Hey now, deporting folks wouldn't solve it, but...
Like it or not, there are reasons for not letting documented people into the country: terrorism, desease, etc. Is that to say all illegals are horrid, worthless people... no. Not at all. there's rules and they should be followed...
When you get 20 people living in an apartment, that's just not good... not healthy. What happens if there's a fire? would YOU want to be the fireman to find 20 dead bodys in one apartment?
that virgina law does seem pretty off the wall, but it seems more of a desperate answer (?) to a desperate situation that reeeeally can't be answered on a state level.
Is living in a trailer much better? What about "studio" appartments. What about freedom to do as you choose? What about leaving some resposibility to people involved?
Yeah, perhaps the government should be the "knowitall."
....
Arti
Trailers... oh boy. Do we have to go there? All I can say is it sure wouldn't be me!
Some of them closets they call studios on the market these days are scary.
...freedom to do as you choose is all good and dandy, so long's it not endangering others and/or yourself. here's a question: if you're living in a one bedroom with 20 other people, are you truely 'free'? or safe? what if that stranger sleeping next to you has TB? Sounds more like Rikers island than anything else (either that or a college party!). I assume the goal would be to make some money and get their own individual places... though I can't imagine how insanely hard a goal that might be. Good luck to ehm'.
And since when are people 'responsible?" Hehe! not even the president is held responsible these days! It'd be nice if people were on the ball, but guess what? People drive drunk... people leave loaded guns in their homes with their kids around... people leave candles burning while out shopping, etc... companies sell products they know are flawed - firestone tires, anyone? Cigerettes? People tend to do not too smart things sometimes, and a few reasonable laws to try to keep that in check (usually) doesn't hurt. Don't blame me, cuz i sure as heck didn't make up the rules... but I do follow them...
-Joe
...freedom to do as you choose is all good and dandy, so long's it not endangering others and/or yourself. here's a question: if you're living in a one bedroom with 20 other people, are you truely 'free'? or safe? what if that stranger sleeping next to you has TB? Sounds more like Rikers island than anything else (either that or a college party!). I assume the goal would be to make some money and get their own individual places... though I can't imagine how insanely hard a goal that might be. Good luck to ehm'. ]
When I came to US more than 10 years ago, I had about $10 on my name, I lived in a woodshop on Lower East Side as the owner was kind enough to let me do so. In about a month I was able to rent an apartment near Yankee Stadium (well should have bought it, as the owner wanted only 5G for it.) Now I'm back in Manhattan and I enjoy it!
People live where they can afford at a time, obviously striving for better and .... it can be done!!
Powerty is not a sin, acnowleding it as a way of life, perhaps.
[And since when are people 'responsible?" ]
If you are not responsible, thats your problem and as I see it your living room should be IND mezzanine :-)
Arti
I hope they're striving for better... I just can't imagine how hard that would be in these times though.
I make a good clip of money, more than what both my parents make
combined - yet getting ahead is just as hard for me as it was for them. My rent is double theirs (then again they've lived in the same place 30 some odd years...), and at $900 a month, it's actually on the low end of the scale for most of queens. How someone who juggle fruits at the corner market to earn a paycheck could cover that on their own (or with a minimum of roomates) is slightly beyond me.
It just seems like times have changed quite a bit. It used to be that
you could come here, live with a roomate or 2, find a job and move up & out into the world (lord knows it's what my parents did...). But ior that possible anymore? "sorry I'm late for the interview, I had to take a number to get into the shower" just doesn't sound that good! 100 years ago, there were manfacturing jobs, construction jobs - heck - even subway building jobs - jobs that anyone could do. A lot of that has given way to more specialized skill oriented tasks, office work,
computer work... Can someone struggling to learn (or perhaps not even
bothering to) learn english suceed?
(again, I sure as heck don't know the answers...)
The possible end result, of many many people stuck living grouped
together in tiny apartments isn't good for anyone, least of all those
stuck in them shoes. But then again, what the hell do I know? This is just one mans oddball opinion!
-Joe
Can someone struggling to learn (or perhaps not even bothering to learn) English succeed?
Someone coming to this country and not bothering to learn the language can go right back where they came from - they don't deserve the privilege of being here. Someone who comes here and makes an honest effort at learning the language - even though they may never master it - can at least hold their head up and say "I tried". Learning, or attempting to learn, the language demonstrates a commitment to this country and to the immigrant's own search for a better life here. I am a project manager at a major communications company with about 80 people reporting on dotted line to me. They are a very ethnically diverse group. Many of the folks who report to me - as well as several of the people that I report to (the dotted lines go both ways) - were born in other countries. Their abilities with the English language varies, but all of the speak it to one extent or another. One fellow in particular stands out in my mind. He arrived in the US from Korea in mid-1997 with his wife and children, speaking no English other than what he had picked up from being a systems administrator on Unix servers. I hired him at that time on the strength of a recommendation from another Korean employee, who volunteered to help teach him English and translate as necessary for him in the meantime. Kihwan still doesn't speak the best English, but we can communicate now without Gun-Ho's assistance, and I'm looking forward to promoting him later this year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've witnessed people without any formal (or rany) training in English to come here and within months they can communicate within their their realm, the only thing common I could say is that there was a will.
Arti
Having been in France many times, while there I have had to pick up the french language in a short period of time in order to properly communicate since not everyone can understand english. So the exact same thing is happening to people who come to this country.
In my opinion, the Spanish speaking people in the US have the highest rate of non-english speaking individuals of any ethnicity in this country. Because the Spanish language is so prevalent, English really isn't a necessary communication tool as far as they're concerned. That's why you see Spanish people who have been living here for 20+ years who can't speak English. I betcha won't find too many other foreign individuals who fall into this same category.
There are certain areas of the country where people can go their entire lives without learning English -- Miami is one, and the Mexican border areas in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California are another. Usually, though, while the adults may not learn English, their kids do, because there's still so much stuff they miss out on by not being at least bilingual.
However, there's no doubt its becoming easier to live in certain areas and speak only Spanish -- in El Paso a few months ago, it was announced the local CBS affiliate was going to drop the network in favor of Spanish language programming, which AFAIK is the first time any U.S. network station has dropped one of the major networks for non-English language shows.
>>> the local CBS affiliate was going to drop the network in favor of Spanish language programming <<<
In Los Angeles, the highest rated (for number of listeners) radio station is a Spanish language station.
Tom
In New York I believe one of the Spanish FMers was among the top two or three stations in the fall Arbitron books.
Radio stations flipping to Spanish isn't all that unusual -- in many places anything above 1200 on the AM dial (where the poorer AM signals are) were sold off and became Spanish or other non-English language stations years ago. But for a TV station to basically say we can get better ratings with Spanish language programming than with the Super Bowl or Survivor is something new (though of course, there was a UHF outlet perfectly willing to pick up the CBS programming in El Paso when it became available)
However, there's no doubt its becoming easier to live in certain areas and speak only Spanish -- in El Paso a few months ago, it was announced the local CBS affiliate was going to drop the network in favor of Spanish language programming, which AFAIK is the first time any U.S. network station has dropped one of the major networks for non-English language shows.
It may not have been El Paso itself that was the reason behind the change. While El Paso has a large Spanish-speaking population, it's right across the Rio Grande from Ciudad Juarez, which has a population that is much larger than El Paso's and, of course, entirely Spanish-speaking. Many people there probably would be interested in watching the El Paso station as opposed to local Mexican programming.
In San Diego, many radio stations transit across the border from Tijuana. The Mexican government is easier on regulations. Many spanish stations gearing to the U.S. side are there. Many U.S. companies also want to gear to Mexican residents by transmitting from Tijuana (studios in most cases are on the U.S. side)with love songs and ranchero music. They got some interesting radio over there. And what's nice is they don't seem to overcompress the signals like in NY.
What first call letter does Mexico use?
US has K and W (and N) like KPIG and WHOG
Canada has C like CBUH
What first call letter does Mexico use?
US has K and W (and N) like KPIG and WHOG
Canada has C like CBUH
X
They use the letter X.
Oh. I'm sure that had something to do with it -- metro El Paso-Las Cruses, N.M. has a population of around 800,000, but when you toss in Juarez, the total zooms to 3 million.
I also think the story I read said the owner of the station is trying to start some sort of over-the-air national Spanish language network, possibly connected to Galavision or Univision (Telemundo I beleive is owned by CBS, so the main office in New York wouldn't allow their main network to be dumped from VHF for their Spanish affiliate, even if the majority of the viewers speak the language).
Thing is that Mexican citizens don't pay the bills for an American TV station. They don't get counted ratings-wise, and thus there are few advertisers willing to pay the bucks to reach them.
And where did I read that fewer than 1 in 3 Mexican households have TVs?
-Hank
[Can someone struggling to learn (or perhaps not even
bothering to) learn english suceed? ]
Most likely if there's a will, heck they learned their mother tounge.
[The possible end result, of many many people stuck living grouped
together in tiny apartments isn't good for anyone, least of all those
stuck in them shoes.]
I've watched TV programs about 3rd world counties, and I could imagine that even if they would carry on living like that forever, it would be better what they had. Of course I'd imagine that theire goals are set higher. One can endure hardship if there's "light in the end of tunnel".
Arti
On a similar note, one of the big supporters of California's Prop 187 a few years ago in Orange County now wants police to stop and check "foreign looking" people to see if they are in this country illegally. The Anaheim police chief said his officers have a lot better things to do than that and the city council agreed.
This is the kind of bird-brained thinking that managed to get the California Republican Party knocked out of virtually every statewide office in the span of five years. (It's also the reason Bush got the presidential nomination of the GOP last year -- when California Republians were really into their anti-immigrant rage in 1996, demanding that all medical and educational services to the kids of illegal aliens be cut, Bush told the Republicans in Texas who wanted a similar policy against the state's Mexican population he wasn't going to do it. Bush then got 49 percent of the Hispanic vote running for re-election in 1998, and a lot of the party leaders in the rest of the country decided he would be the best candidate to run in order to get away from the Pete Wilson-Pat Buchanan immigrant-bashing image)
Hey, wait a minute here. I'm not upset at the Mexicans, I'm upset at the landlords who exploit them for profit.
If we don't control the soaring price of housing and food in NYC than conditions will just grow worse.
Criticize the MTA all you want, but if they ran housing and Wendy's we'd all be alot better off. :-o
If we don't control the soaring price of housing and food in NYC than conditions will just grow worse. Criticize the MTA all you want, but if they ran housing and Wendy's we'd all be alot better off.
Well, more than 50 years ago NYC did try to control the price of housing, which had been soaring as a result of the market disruptions caused by World War II. Hence was born rent control, and the city's never been the same since.
Oh, come on, Peter. All of us know that all of that "supply and demand" crap they teach in econ 101 is just so much capitalist propaganda.
Rent control like a lot of other government ideas had its dark side too. Like helping cause slums by reducing funds available for building maintenance.I'm not saying landlords were all good.
The business of apartment squatting because rent couldn't be raised as long as one tenant lived there for years was baloney. Meantime an old widow in one example I knew hung onto a 5 room apt. in Washington Heights at something like $45 per month in 1965 when logic would have dictated $100. No turnover, no increase. Meantime with the turnover on 3 rooms in the same, or most buildings, the rent for a couple with a child was $100 per month, high even then as 3 rooms in older buildings should and often was about $80.Nothing against the old lady but even at $45 for 3 rooms which was all she needed would have been fair, and more. True that isn't my business.
Another trick was [and this does not reflect my feelings on race]when a landlord had too many "squatters"..many of whom sent their children to college thanks to low rents..he'd plant a black or Hispanic family and as it was the "whites" of whatever persuasion started moving out.Presto..an increase on every apartment of 15%, plus increases for new appliances [which admittedly could be stolen before they were paid for]. The working class "minorities" moved on when the low classes followed, another increase. Meantime the speculator landlords took over, the buildings suffered from ongoing neglect, now what had been nice is a slum; next step.. up in smoke. Everybody got their piece of the pie, and the taxpayers picked up the tab for abandoned properties and later rehab's.
True, IIRC rent control came out as a necessity of World War 2 but IMHO later backfired. {I was looking for an apartment in the Bronx in 1965 so I saw the results} BUT considering the mostly exorbitant rents these days I find it surprising to hear at $800 or so for a 3-room apartment in non-ritzy areas It came as a shock to find that NYC still has rent control...at these prices?
Criticize the MTA all you want, but if they ran housing and Wendy's we'd all be alot better off. :-o
Yes we would! We'd all get to live in a cramped apartment, all shared with other people and sleep on fiberglass, in a building that's falling apart with rust in the corners while eating burgers made with third rate 30 year old equipment and cows infected with Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis.
In NYC there is a law limiting the number of occupants in housing units. It gets enforced mostly when someone complains, I expect.
Overcrowding and the housing shortage has one thing to blame. Not enough new construction of affordable housing. If a moratorium was instituted for upscale housing, and just affordable or economy housing units were build, there'd be more supply which would tilt the supply vs. demand equation. Result is prices would go down.
And there's should be many more housing inspectors around to codemn illegal, dangerous overcrowded apartments.
Overcrowding and the housing shortage has one thing to blame. Not enough new construction of affordable housing. If a moratorium was instituted for upscale housing, and just affordable or economy housing units were build, there'd be more supply which would tilt the supply vs. demand equation. Result is prices would go down.
And there's should be many more housing inspectors around to codemn illegal, dangerous overcrowded apartments.
Don't hold your breath. Construction in NYC is expensive. While part of that is due to greedy construction unions and meddlesome bureaucrats, and therefore can at least in theory be changed, most of the high costs are the unavoidable consequences of scarce land and the difficulty of building things in crowded urban areas. It is virtually impossible to build housing that's even remotely affordable without taxpayer subsidies. Providing those subsidies would require higher taxes, and higher taxes would damage the city's economy. Basically, NYC is reaching the point where it simply is not for everyone - people of modest means have to live elsewhere unless they have rent-control deals. While this is hardly an ideal state of affairs, it's pretty much unavoidable given the city's density.
Oh, and if there were more condemnations of overcrowded apartments, rents would go even higher. Supply and demand 101.
One question: where you gunna build it?
Every tiny lot in my hood' (astoria) has been or is being built on. Tiny one & two floor places have been bulldozed and replaced with 3 or 4 floors...
There's a few industrial type places around, but a good chunk of that is still in use...
Large demand + not a lot of space equals one potientially scary situation.
One question: where you gunna build it?
Every tiny lot in my hood' (astoria) has been or is being built on. Tiny one & two floor places have been bulldozed and replaced with 3 or 4 floors...
There's a few industrial type places around, but a good chunk of that is still in use...
Large demand + not a lot of space equals one potientially scary situation.
My point exactly. Even if it were possible to break the construction unions and stop vendor price gouging, land shortages would prevent any significant construction of non-expensive housing in the city. NYC is similar to (very expensive) San Francisco, with geographical obstacles to growth, rather than, say, Phoenix or Las Vegas, where growth can spread out into previously undeveloped land annexed to the city.
[Las Vegas, where growth can spread out into previously undeveloped land annexed to the city]
Las Vegas is fully contained, there was an article in one of NYC papers few years ago about it. To summarize, by memory, there's nowhere to expand, mountains, military esablishments, etc.
Arti
There are still areas in Vegas to expand -- according to the New York Times last week, the problem for the city itself is much of the growth is in neighboring towns and along the stip, which is where the big casinos have gone and which is actually not within the city itself.
As a result, Vegas is experiencing the same problem New York and other inner cities have -- the tax base for services is outside of their reach, and many of the people with higher incomes who are moving to the area are locating in towns like Henderson, which then gets the property tax money for all the housing going up there, while the casinos have enough money on hand to look out for themselves -- they're planning to unify their monorail system, but have no plans or desire to extend it downtown.
[many of the people with higher incomes who are moving to the area are locating in towns like Henderson]
So you really meant "Greater Las Vegas area"
Arti
Every tiny lot in my hood' (astoria) has been or is being built on. Tiny one & two floor places have been bulldozed and replaced with 3 or 4 floors...
The 3 or 4 story buildings can be replaced with 7 story buildings and 7 story buildings with hi-rises.
Still costs money, but I think that there's definitely demand for it!
Since when did Mexican people become Mexican "stuff"?
I think he's referring to stores and other "stuff", I know it sounded strange until I thought about it for a moment.
Yeah, I was referring to the Mexican music and resteruants around the 7 line in Corona. Too bad I find Mexican food too spicy, because it sure smells good from that railfan window.
There are several empty bank buildings setting unused in downtown Baltimore. IIRC, one old bank building is now a rather questionable looking nightclub. This is right on Eutaw St between Baltimore Metro and Camden Yards.
There's at least one of those here in NYC at Houston & Ave. A. it used to be called 'the bank'. it was sold recently but is still a club.
Also, over on W14th in the meat packing district, there's a few clubs in old meat lockers... one is called 'the cooler'... heh heh!
John! Your statements are getting crazier all the time! Do you realize what you are saying? Your statements seem to borderline scizophrenic, as at one point you advocate something totally opposing your views in another post of yours.
One I've noticed your total fear of anything unfamiliar to you: it's called NIMBYism!
I do realize that you have a lot of personal problems, but one has to overcome them and become a productive member of society. Blaming everybody and everything won't help.
Do yourself a favor and develop a solid view of things in life (around you,) principles have always helped people in distress.
Arti
Well wait a minute here, I am not blaming the Mexicans. They are just the victim of higher housing costs. Landlords find they can make more money if they rent by individual, not room. Perhaps I forgot to say that, I guess my mind was overloaded at the time.
Well it's supply and demand. Go to Kansas City and you find the an appartment rents for $200. ...but where can a Mexican immigrant get being in there?
It's all built on hope, and if you try the initial investement will pay off.
Arti
Also there were articles from this weekend in the Daily News on Corona declining because landlords now rent by person, which is leading to overcrowding of Mexican immigrants. When riding the 7 I
now do see alot of Mexican stuff, especially around Junction and 103rd street.
Situations like that are quite common in parts of Suffolk County. While the neighbors often go ballistic, with few exceptions the Mexican immigrants are hard-working and law-abiding. Not much "neighborhood deterioration" has occurred, fears notwithstanding.
Also a councilwoman is upset with a developer, over what has come to the former Queens Savings bank location. A cheap, flea market has opened in the bank building, but the developer named Chen, said that this was just temporary. While the market does well, when I saw it and it did look like a disgrace. A bank building deserves better than that.
Mergers have resulted in a large number of surplus bank branches. Some of the buildings can be difficult to reuse for other purposes, especially the ones that look like "traditional" banks, with stone construction and high ceilings.
Check out this ebay auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=548672788
I knew that at some point someone would go crazy. Alright the card in
quation is the NY TImes card form 1996 and only 1,000 were printed - but WOW!!!
I won't be paying more that $800.00 for that card.
I've got quite a few old cards laying around... how do you find out how much they are worth?
"I've got quite a few old cards laying around... how do you find out how much they are worth? "
If you use my e-mail, let me know what you have. Maybe I can be of some help.
Bill "Newkirk"
I suggest you take Bill up on his offer, I know him personaly & he'll treat you fairly OR look out for a Swap Show. There are several each year. Personally I prefer to trade vs. buy/sell which is what mostly happens at the shows now.
Mr t__:^)
I'm posting this message because I seek expired transit passes from the following cities:
Philadelphia and Pittsburgh PA; San Francisco CA; Chicago IL; and Boston MA.
If you can help me, email me at cityrail64@yahoo.com and I will then give you an address such passes can be sent to. Thanks for any help provided.
Andrés
Heard just minutes ago on my scanner, some youths at 40th st. have somehow mangled door panel 1 of R36 car #9739 and have also defacated on the seats near the TO position. Such utter disrespect to public decency should not be taken lightly!
-Dan
Gotta luv that 7 line!!! Queens is home to some of the most troublesome kids in the city.
They should be flogged for their actions!!! Queens needs some law and order, and fast!
Each T/O and conductor should be equipped with a whip, in case they catch those vandals they can flog them with the whip. If not then perhaps the tip of the whip will get them; that part should be very painful.
"Each T/O and conductor should be equipped with a whip, in case they catch those vandals they can flog them with the whip. If not then perhaps the tip of the whip will get them; that part should be very painful."
Good idea, but you left out one thing. Since this is the real world, each misunderstood youth would be equipped with one ACLU lawyer !!
Bill "Newkirk"
<< "Each T/O and conductor should be equipped with a whip, in case they catch those vandals they can flog them with the whip. If not then perhaps the tip of the whip will get them; that part should be very painful."
Good idea, but you left out one thing. Since this is the real world, each misunderstood youth would be equipped with one ACLU lawyer !! >>
Then make it a double-tipped whip: one for the punk, the other for his lawyer!
Good idea, but you left out one thing. Since this is the real world, each misunderstood youth would be equipped with one ACLU lawyer !!
Why is that so wrong?
Haven't you people ever heard of a FAIR TRIAL FOR ALL ACCUSED?
Then once that's done, the flogging can begin.
I prefer doing it Alice-in-Wonderland style - sentence first, verdict later :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, that actually sounds like the recipe for dealing with photography on the subway that they use in Toronto!
DaWheelFlange:
Did anyone teach these kids that you don't use a subway car as a public toilet and that you don't destroy public property. They should make those punks clean up the mess that they made and they should also be required to install the replacement door panel that is now necessary because of their misguided actions.
BMTJeff
and they should also be required to install the replacement door panel that is now necessary because of their misguided actions.
NO WAY! they'd just do a half assed job of it since they have no skills.
Pork:
The punks would have to install the replacement door with careful supervision and they would have to do it right not half assed.
BMTJeff
I have seen so many number boards from scrapped equipment offered in auctions that I have been wondering if theft of number boards from active equipment is a problem on the subways.
Are there any cars in revenue sevice missing number boards?
Well, what are the numbers of the plates in the auctions?
-Dave
The numbers in the auctions are definately from obsolete or scrapped equipment. A person putting a current number board in a public auction would have to be rather stupid.
I was just wondering if vandals were taking current number boards since they are doing so much other damage to cars in service.
Number boards from current equipment are sold at the transit museum. The thing is, the number plates are the ones from pre-GOH. I have 7779, from an R-26 still in service. I have seen other R-26 as well as R-40 plates.
And they only cost $5. I have two, but I don't have them handy.
-Hank
I recall in my glorious youth, looking at the builders plates above the stormdoors as I would pass through the doors to the front of the train. Usually an "E" or "F" . They were ACF or Pullman Standard or Pressed Steel. They were made of Brass, I guess. Then towards the end of that era, the plates began to evaporate or grow legs. They just seemed to have disappeared.
Was this a scrap brass thing? Theft by scrap dealers? Or perhaps souvineer hunters!
The statute of limitatations has passed, so, who has them?
avid
I don't know! An occasional subway builder's plate does turn up in an auction, but not as frequently as a numberboard!
I have to admit I had a nice colletion of them, from the IRT and the IND R1-9 as well. Thankfully even near the end the IND ones weren't painted over. I just sold the last one, an IRT ACF, last summer. Sold them all over a period of 15 years but then figured I had the enjoyment of them for years. As you admit stuff grows and grows, so as things grew I moved on.But was glad to have them when I did.
BTW believe it or not the IRT Pullman plates (1915-22) were aluminum, not brass. OK, maybe some were brass but I wouldn't know. Mine was aluminum. That came as a surprise once the paint was removed!
[I just sold the last one, an IRT ACF, last summer.]
Yeah, Ed, I heard you sold it to some real stooge of a character...;-)
Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk.
BMTman
I have a Pressed Steel builders plate and one of more recent vintage (St Louis Car - builder, 207th St shop, rebuilder, or something to that effect). Both obtained legitimately.
--Mark
IIRC, 9438 has one missing.
Hi all,
Last July, I set up a website called "Subway Simulator Central" where subway fans like us can create and share subway related trains, routes, etc. It's not much on this website till after MS Train Simulator is released (Hopefully April!)
The URL is at: http://members.aol.com/subwaysimcentral and there's a link to SubSimCentral message board as well.
Cheers,
Mike the Mailman
The fate of the two R-14s (at Concourse yard) that were the topic of so many posts last week, has been sealed. They will be moved to the rear of 27 track later this week. There they will be cut up some time over the next few weeks and carted off to red-bird heaven.
Interesting. Been a long time since they cut up cars on the property, probably since the R9s. Where on 27 Rear do the contractors expect to remove the steel?
Any chance of getting any pieces of them? Like a master controller handle, etc.
Marc
Or perhaps the Motormans Cab, windows , door and pantograph and air horn?
I'd like to race heypaul! and thats as close as I'll get to an R/10.
avid
I'd settle for a trigger box or rollsign.:-)
Rattan seats, set ,top and bottom from the solo seat, behind the T.O.s cab, Yellow with light blue stripe. or a grey enamal pole with fans and emergency lites.
avid
I really have no time to go out and start stripping the cars. If I do remove any parts, I'll be taking the #1 end 'Storm Door' off and saving it for our pal from the left coast. This way he'll always have his own railfan window.
[... #1 end 'Storm Door' off and saving it for our pal from the left coast.]
He's your P-A-L now ... boy have you mellowed ! Make sure you pick the door with the least scratches on the glass, because your pal insists on an un-obstructed view out that window.
Mr t__:^)
Make sure you pick the door with the least scratches on the glass
Glass? Who said anything about glass? and he's paying the freight....
Salaam'll cut an opening in the front of an R-142 and install the door, >>>RAILFAN WINDOW<<< and all :^>
I read in the American Journal of Abnormal Psychiatry about a new disease. It's technically referred to as RFWDS or RailFan Window Denial Syndrome or more commonly known as salaam syndrome. Although there has never been a recorded case of Full Blown salaam, some folks, especially on the west coast, are beginning to show early symptoms. Reports are that our left coast friend may be moving into the advanced stages of the disease. As Jerry Lewis would say, how can you sit in front of your computer screen while this needless suffering goes on. I'm told that the only sure cure is a massive dose of railfan window every day for the rest of the sufferers life. In the name of humanity, I'll donate one storm door with railfan window. But you need to do your part. Send what you can to the salaam fund to cover shipping costs. Remember only you can save our frind.
LOL!!!!
Dude, ya gotta stop this! I laughed so hard I almost lost total bladder control! ;-)
BMTman
In other words, it's a case of ROTFLMAOWMP.:-)
I'll be happy to make a donation to the Salaam fund. Can you write a check for one-thousandth of a penny?
Are these the last of their kind on the property (excluding the museum)?
Anyone have any stories of fare evasion gone bad? If not bad then funny? I have two stories.
1. In Boro Hall (A,C,F) me and my friend were caught doubling up on a Metrocard Maiden and there was an undercover cop right there but he didn't arrest us I guess he just didn't want the paperwork.
2. Of all places in the Harrison Path me and my 3 friends hopped the turnstile and on the PA a lady said "Don't worry they'll be waiting for ya at Journal Square," then "GO DOWN AND PAY YOUR FARE NOW!" that scared us enough to go downstairs and pay. It was funny after but never at the time.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" Don't hop the turnstile crawl under it!
Enjoyed reading yer story!! But be careful, as the TA apparently is really beginning to enforece fare paying with gestapo-like efficiency. I read in the Voice how a lady, while taking her child to school, accidentally swiped her kids discounted student card, while the kid similarly swiped her moms full fare card. Somehow the two of them simply got their respective cards switched-Anyway, a transit cop witnessed the mom using her kids discounted student card, and promptly wrote her a summons. She must have not kowtowed to him enough or had the AUDACITY to try to reason and argue a simple mix-up, and wound up getting arrested! Later, the judge threw it out and ordered her arrest "sealed", but its always going to be there.
I can remember being as old as 8 or 9 and having my Mom push me under the turnstile immediately before her since I was a child end she "decided" that a childs discount fare should be 100% off. Thank God nothing bad ever happened from this, though. That rude idiot PATH
clerk should really learn some diplomacy and tact, taunting someone by trying to instigate a verbal or physical confrontation by telling them they are ONLY going to be arrested at the very next stop is probably not the smartest way to go, especially if its late at night.
Peace, Thomas
Fare beating is theft! If I were to help myself to a possesion of yours or go to your store and help myself to a bottle of soda I still would be stealing!
fare beating leads to reduced money for new cars, station renovations and leads to higher fares.
I wouldn't beat the fare, but the free fare for kids is a gray area. When does it run out? There is no sign that says.
My eight year old is tall, so we've started paying for her, but not yet for the six year old. Perhaps we should, because she's tall too. Both get student cards from school.
In any event, I really resent the 1/2 fare discount (even in rush hour!) for the elderly, but not for kids.
Thirty years ago, middle-class young people were given grants, not loans, to go to college for nothing, while the elderly were eating dog food. Today in NYC, it's just as unfair, but in reverse. No one wants to be anti-old people, but give me a break!
Old people can vote...kids can't.
There is no grey area. If the child's height is above 44" regardless of age, then the child must pay full fare. If you ever get on a TA bus and see ground in indentations or a red stripe on the pole next to the bus driver, that's what it's for.
While ignorance is not a legal excuse, the 44" rule could do with a little more publicity near the turnstiles.
It is publicized. Look on the front of each booth for the yellow Fares sticker. It mentions the 44" rule. It also limits "free children" to three per paying customer. I have had to challenger customers who try to push five children under the wheel. I have to tell them you can only have three free entries since you paid only one fare. Some will accept my offer to pay for one of the children (and let number 5 go in with number 4 which will have paid a full fare.)
Here too, Police can stop a customer that wont follow the rules.
I agree with the "more publicity". I'd have a big sign in all "Transit Languages" [such as the smoking sign in some subway cars] which would read: "Do I pay for my child? If they are taller than the box[showe picture] then they must pay. You can only have three free entries with each paid fare [here too I'd show three children and one adult holding their hand and a second picture with the international No! of four children with one adult.] I'd also prominently post the No smoking poster at all fare control areas.
As a clarification for Zman's correct answer. Near each fare zone is a tall, black metal box (the NRFB[ Non- Revenue Fare Box]). If a customer is taller than the box, they are taller than 44" and must pay. In actuality, the station agent will challenge the customer only if the entire head is taller than the box. Of course, if the paying cutomer gripes about us challenging their "four year old" then we challenge all children taller than 44". They'll then decide to pay for the first challenge. Some will then pay for all of their tall children and some will ignore the request and then they are a fare beater subject to a "present" from the police (if the police are at the station).
Some just say "that's nice" and of course then they are subject to being stopped by Police.
If the NRFB is missing we use the cross line in the AFC rail which is slightly taller than 44".(this line is the same height as the highest part of the snated area of the turnstile.)
Ha. I never knew about the stripe or the black box. And I've ridden the subway for almost 20 years, and am on my second tour working for the place. I'll check, and pay as appropriate, esp. since I no longer have to pay for myself.
It is a ripoff that the elderly get discounts and the kids do not. It isn't just that kids don't vote, its that many of their parents don't count, can't vote, or aren't there. In 1990 (census data) 70 percent of NYC residents over age 65 were non-Hispanic whites, while 70 percent of those under 18 were NOT non-Hispanic whites, and many of their parents were immigrants and thus ineligible to vote. In addition, many of the non-immigrants only had one parent rather than two. Same reason we pay 86 percent more than average per recipient for Medicaid for the elderly, compared with a relatively low amount on schools.
Ah, but the kids DO get discounts. In fact they're 100% discounts. It's called a student pass metrocard. Excluding the blind, whom else besides kids get to ride for free?
Excluding the blind, whom else besides kids get to ride for free?
But one is forced to go to prison school. The only time you truly ride free is when you play hooky to go railfanning, which is GREAT.
Of course, if you don't GO to school, chances are over the long run you'll wind up IN a prison.
A sizeable portion of youths simply do not understand that what you learn in your first 20 years, dictates your earnings potential and how your quality of life will be for the next 70 years.
Not that hooky isn't part of life as well. Heck, I used to railfan while playing hooky myself oh about 20 years ago.
Very True, except that these wild and crazy delinquent youths live for the here and now; they don't particularly think in the 20/40/60 years from now mindset, as maybe they should. Also, most are painfully aware that they probably won't live to see that long, or will be inevitably incarcerated, a fairly honorable status and right od passage of sorts in their subculture. Peace
Very True, except that these wild and crazy delinquent youths live for the here and now
Delinquent? Who is delinquent? What is delinquent is our school system.
they don't particularly think in the 20/40/60 years from now mindset, as maybe they should.
How the fuck do you know how I think?
Oh yes, I could have concealed that word, but I don't believe in concealing words since everybody knows what's being concealed.
Also, most are painfully aware that they probably won't live to see that long, or will be inevitably incarcerated, a fairly honorable status and right od passage of sorts in their subculture. Peace
What the hell is wrong with you? All youth are lower class now? Everybody will be in jail or dead 20/40/60 years from now? War
they don't particularly think in the 20/40/60 years from now mindset, as maybe they should.
How the fuck do you know how I think?
Oh yes, I could have concealed that word, but I don't believe in concealing words since everybody knows what's being concealed.
Also, most are painfully aware that they probably won't live to see that long, or will be inevitably incarcerated, a fairly honorable status and right of passage of sorts in their subculture.
What the hell is wrong with you? All youth are lower class now? Everybody will be in jail or dead 20/40/60 years from now?
I believe Thomas was speaking of young people from the very poorest, lumpenproletariat levels of our society, not of young people in general. This complete lack of concern for the future is not an uncommon phenomenon among the poor, regardless of age.
Say, "PORK":
1. I didn't know that you considered yourself in the delinquent youth category, so therefore I obviously didn't pretend or presume to know "how the fuck you think"!
2. I believe, as I know others do, that the common bond that makes SubTalk work is an atmosphere of mutual RESPECT, railfan CAMRADDERIE, and OPENESS to other alternative viewpoints and opinions, and therefore,
3. I DO NOT particularly care for the manner or vocabulary you chose to dissent. In a CIVILIZED world, people respond to eachother CIVILLY, i.e., go sit on some ice.
Kudos to Mr.Rosa for having the balls to try to mediate and explain the issue, and yes he is correct, I was referring to only that segment of youth's lower socioeconomic chronic offender class that is criminal, not of all youths. Know that I too, grew up in NYC pretty poor, hung out with questionable kids of the kind my response concerned, maybe did questionable things to survive, but didn't let anything or anyone corrupt me or ruin my future. A young kid from Hell's Kithchen with absolutely nothing to lose but everything to gain, I was determined to "make good" and succeed in life, and so far tha'ts what I've done. So you see, perhaps I actually CAN "know how the fuck you think" since I too, had my experiences and "made my bones" with the variety of people you claim, most of which I don't mind adding are either DEAD, Doing VERY SERIOUS TIME upstate, or hold serious lengthy criminal records and are F*@#%D FOR LIFE. The moral of this story as well as my response posting is - DON'T LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU.
P.S. If you NEVER respond to another response or posting of mine, it will still be way too soon, i.e., feel perfectly free to stay the f#@k out of my face in all futureSubTalk.
Peace, Respect, and Love to all, Thomas :> :< :I
PPS: How bout them GIANTS?!
Our porcine pal is very very sensitive to anything that he perceives as anti-youth bias. He is entirely correct in claiming that such bias does indeed exist - witness the "zero tolerance" rules in some schools, such as the one that got a 14-year-old expelled for giving a Midol to her classmate, or a six-year-old boy sent to sex-offender counseling for kissing a girl on the playground. As the stepfather of a 15-year-old, I too have witnessed anti-youth bias in action, having seen how she's watched like a hawk in some stores (while adults are ignored, and presumably can shoplift like crazy).
I'm not saying that the existence of this bias totally justifies Pork's hypersensitivity, but only that it makes it clear where he's coming from. (Pork, if you read this, please try to lighten up a bit, okay?)
Of course, hypersensistivity is pretty common nowadays. After having been attacked for decades by religious conservatives for using a few swear words, the classic novel Catcher in the Rye has now come under fire by minorities (and, as one might expect, by Upper West Side limousine liberals). Its crime? All the characters are white.
"six-year-old boy sent to sex-offender counseling for kissing a girl on the playground"
Now thats just wrong.
"religious conservatives"
I just want to line them up and shoot them all.
"I just want line them up and shoot them all" David B. I FEAR YOU, GET HELP FAST! Religious Conservatives are the "useful idiots" of big business and the military-industrial complex that has permanently ended the era of America's greatness but advocating mass murder is SICK - Get Help, Creedmoor is waiting.
Our porcine pal is very very sensitive to anything that he perceives as anti-youth bias. He is entirely correct in claiming that such bias does indeed exist - witness the "zero tolerance" rules in some schools, such as the one that got a 14-year-old expelled for giving a Midol to her classmate, or a six-year-old boy sent to sex-offender counseling for kissing a girl on the playground. As the stepfather of a 15-year-old, I too have witnessed anti-youth bias in action, having seen how she's watched like a hawk in some stores (while adults are ignored, and presumably can shoplift like crazy).
On a related subject, this one on "zero tolerance" is new today. If they had served chicken nuggets, they probably would have been mistaken for hand grenades...
AP story on zero tolerance in elementary school
Thanks 4 the insight. . . Yes, I remember anti-youth bias, I still know anti-hispanic bias, anti-poor bias, NY vs. NJ bias, the list goes on and on. The bottom line is that nearly EVERYONE is a memmber of some kind of "bias" group or another, and all should try not to be quite so THINSKINNED and include themselves in groups that the posting response concerned. Thanks, Thomas :/
Yes, that's true.
When I said, "how the fuck do you know," I was only showing my displeasure with being thought of as in the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder and destined to doom because of my RADICAL ideas.
I WAS NOT insulting or talking against Thomas, like I do against N Broadway Line of Salaam Allah.
I think that words mean nothing. You can attack a person with harsh words or with regular words, it's still the same. If you use the harshest words but don't attack anyone, it's fine. Like all of the sailor-like speech of most teenagers.
>>> Like all of the sailor-like speech of most teenagers. <<<
As a member of the sea going fraternity, I resent the above disparaging stereotyping of the speech of sailors. Their obscenities are far more interesting and varied than those of most teenagers.
Tom
When I saw your heading, I thought for a minute that you read my "New T/O" post again :)
Oh. -thomas :>
I've sent you an e-mail.
I was referring to only that segment of youth's lower socioeconomic chronic offender class that is criminal
I never talked about socioeconomic status. I was talking about all teenagers, including myself, and I am in no lower socioeconomic class, even though at this point I would like it.*
*Poor people get college aid. If my parents didn't pay anything, I would be under no obligation to them.
I understand your anger at the financial aid system. I'm personally "fucked" as they say in France. My blond haired, blue-eyed roommate with a surname ending in -onzalez, however, got a free ride, despite the fact that his parents made 10 times as much as mine. The problem is that they assume loans are a scholarship. Well loans have to be repaid, and it will cripple me financialy for the next 10 years. It was with mixed feelings that I recently read that Princeton has decided to replace loans with grants. And to think I turned them down because they seemed too elitist for someone of my economic background.
You gotta remember for every 1 gonzalez making 6 or 7 figures a year, theres probably another 30 or 40 just barely adequately subsisting , so they assume your roomate is of course on of those. Names are'nt everything and can be very misleading, for example I have an anglo surname due to a WASP father, and because of this am presumed totally white, and am usually last in line for everything for it. Sorry youre having a hrad ride aspiring for the college dream, and I hope you achieve it soon! BTW-my anger is mainly directed at not the "financial system", but at the stupid-assed profane-strewn response one of my postings received from "pork. . .". Peace,Thomas:I
profanity is only hurtful when it's directed at a person. Otherwise it's a way of showing strong feelings.
When people say what the hell, they're just doing that because of the stigma certain words have said since the Victorian era. And seasoned Subtalkers should know already how much I hate Victorianism.
pork said:
"profanity is only hurtful when it's directed at a person. Otherwise it's a way of showing strong feelings.
When people say what the hell, they're just doing that because of the stigma certain words have said since the Victorian era. And seasoned Subtalkers should know already how much I hate Victorianism."
you have stated how you view the use of a very strong word that you used here... i am not sure if your explanation is to help others understand where you were coming from or an attempt to show others where your views are superior to theirs...
in any event, i hope some people's response to your words was instructive for you... however you view the innocence of expressing your feelings, in some situations very strong words are viewed as inappropriate for use... i think at subtalk, such strong language is improper, and i don't think that that means we are living in the victorian era... strong language may offend others or send out signals of strong hostility...
you might say that you're being open and honest about how you feel... well other people are being open and honest
about how they feel... if your concerns are to shock people with "victorian" sensibilities, well you have succeeded... don't be surprised if these people tune you out and listen to another station, more to their liking...
strong language may offend others or send out signals of strong hostility...
I was being hostile, since I was offended by his comments.
if your concerns are to shock people with "victorian" sensibilities, well you have succeeded... don't be surprised if these people tune you out and listen to another station, more to their liking...
That's fine. Since I probably would never agree with people with those kinds of sensibilities and would end up in nothing but arguments with someone who feels that we should all be repressed.
And no, I didn't do it for shock value.
I'd really like to send you a letter, not insulting or negative. Please e-mail boarshevik@yahoo.com
Reading this thread and other recent events have made me think a bit about this. Here are some of my views on this. FYI, I graduated from high school in 1976... I wasn't part of the "in" crowd - we were sort of a crossover group between the weirdo/party/nerd crowd.
wild and crazy delinquent youths - In some ways, we were pretty wild and crazy, and some folks probably considered us delinquents. But we just thought we were having a good time.
20/40/60 years from now mindset - I certainly never thought about things that far away, and never envisioned myself being that old. It's not that I thought I'd die by then, or that I'd stop aging as if by magic - I seriously just never thought about it. This is odd considering the next piece. And most of my friends from those days never really thought about it either.
won't live to see that long - My HS class had a 7-year reunion because at the time, there were serious concerns about whether there would be enough of us to have a 10-year reunion. This wasn't really due to suicides/OD-ing, just stupid stuff - a couple folks were killed in a hunting accident, a good friend of mine died when his car skidded on some leaves and wrapped around a phone pole, etc. I think there was 1 suicide (between graduation and the reunion). I don't think there were any fatal OD's.
I'm more convinced than ever that age is a state of mind - right now I feel like I'm in my late 20's. Some days I feel older. When I stand up and my knees creak, I know I'm older 8-(
Perhaps this sheds some light on the way "an old guy" felt about it many years ago.
Of course, if you don't GO to school, chances are over the long run you'll wind up IN a prison.
Bullshit. The school system is primarily a babysitter and secondarily a machine for getting people out faster and more efficiently, not teaching them. It was designed in an industrial age to produce homogenous workers for the factories. It does not work in a technological society. One other reason for schools is to keep children from the workforce. High School was only made compulsory in the 1930s in order to get those people away from their jobs and give more jobs to adults.
A sizeable portion of youths simply do not understand that what you learn in your first 20 years, dictates your earnings potential and how your quality of life will be for the next 70 years.
No, I understand. And I understand that what you learn in High School is mostly completely useless and one is better off learning on one's own and from the real world. High School is useful only because colleges want your official Board of Education Toilet Paper before admitting you.
And I understand that what you learn in High School is mostly completely useless and one is better off learning on one's own and from the real world. High School is useful only because colleges want your official Board of Education Toilet Paper before admitting you.
If most of what you learn in highschool is useless, why bother with more of the same in college?
High School should be abbreviated to end in the tenth grade.
Then all of that "useless" stuff wouldn't be taught anymore, it would also make more sense to lower the age of freedom to 16, since 18 is too anachronistic.
Where I grew up (so to speak), the age of freedom was 16. Still is, AFAIK. Large numbers dropped out in the 10th or 11th grade.
I'm curious. What are your plans for future study/career?
>>>And I understand that what you learn in High School is mostly completely useless<<<
Absolutely. I mean, how many jobs out there require the use of triganometry and calculus anyway?
It used to be that once you finished high school, that was good enough to get almost any job. Now employers want to see college degrees. I was never one for school, that's why I went the civil service route. Of course now they're trying to f*ck that up too with this two year college requirement crap in some positions.
>>>The school system is primarily a babysitter and secondarily a machine for getting people out faster and more efficiently, not teaching them. It was designed in an industrial age to produce homogenous workers for the factories. It does not work in a technological society. One other reason for schools is to keep children from the workforce. High School was only made compulsory in the 1930s in order to get those people away from their jobs and give more jobs to adults.<<<
Possibly. But if you don't graduate HS or at least get a GED, the majority of employers simply will not hire you.
I mean, how many jobs out there require the use of triganometry and calculus anyway?
LOL. It's clear you've never taken a calc course before. Because if you had, you would know that calc is the most practical of all the math courses. In fact, every other math course just prepares you for calc because you use algebra and trig in calc all the time. Nothing created in the last 300 years did not use calculus some way or another. Electric fields, change over time, non-uniform density, business, construction, among many others all are based on calculus.
I think that the amount of school one needs only depends on what that person wants to do with their life. Some careers don't need college, others do. I'm in college because that's I only way I'm going to get into the career I want. Hell I'm going to need to get a Master's for my career. However, one of my skills, auto detailing, you don't even need high school and you can still make $1000 a week if you're good (I was making $600 a week part time :-)).
Like I said, how many jobs out there require this knowledge. I drive a train, my wife is a retail sales clerk, my mother is a secretary. No calculus in any of those jobs. For us and for millions of other people, the stuff that schools teach is absolutely useless once school is over. Knowledge of advanced math is only required in a minute percentage of available jobs.
True, but what about the future. I work in a factory in the Housekeeping Department, ten years ago, we mopped spilled coolant off the floor, now we use tools like the Internet, CAD, and other types of advanced software to design corrective actions which will prevent the machine from leaking in the first place because, if all else fails, we still have mops. LEARN ALL YOU CAN, YOU W*I*L*L USE IT IN THE FUTURE.
Yeah, but theres always that once in a lifetime situation when knowing adavanced math and science will supposedly save one's life, e.g., Tom Hanks in "Castaway", or MacGuyver in nearly any episode, etc., etc. Peace, Thomas :>
zman179 says PAY YOUR DUES go to school Right On, zman School today IS better suited to an industrial society than a technical one. THE SCHOOL YEAR ISN'T LONG ENOUGH And should last two years longer. but END HOMEWORK.
THE SCHOOL YEAR ISN'T LONG ENOUGH
It is long enough. It can be more efficient with floating vacations in the year round format.
And should last two years longer.
It should last two years LESS. Because either you end up learning useless stuff, or re-learning it in college. A more personalized school system will give a minimum, with higher education for those who need it.
but END HOMEWORK.
OH YEAH!
But I would go further and abolish compulsory schooling. The only important thing that needs to be done to a child is to teach them how to read. Children are like sponges, they love to absorb knowledge and information. Schools don't do that, either the smarter kids get bored, or the less smart (nothing wrong with that) are either the class clown, or get put in a humiliating special class. By FORCING them to go to school, it turns learning into a chore, not a great journey, which it is.
I must agree, in this case less is more. They need not MORE of the same quality of education, but rather BETTER quality education. Why are so many of our schools failing? Give the private/parochial schools a chance via the voucher system and allow the "bad" schools to go out of business. peace, Thomas :/
Vouchers are nothing but a right wing plan to destroy the last vestige of what America needs very badly now: STRONG UNIONS Parents who put their kids into private school should pay tuition, full school tax PLUS a special assessment to pay for state testing,etc. Religious schools in particular should not get one red cent from the government. In Israel, there is an exteremely corrupt religious school system which has forged a political party (Shas) which holds the balance of power in the Knesset (Parliament)with 15% of the vote and has done so for mant years, Fraud, millions of missing dollars, and the head of the Shas party being sent to jail should warn Americans. NOT ONE CENT OF TAX MONEY SHOULD GO TO RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS, PARTICULARILY SCHOOLS
there should at least be a Voucher system between public schools to replace the current urban bussing system the destroyed the urban middle class.
there should at least be a Voucher system between public schools to replace the current urban bussing system the destroyed the urban middle class.
In an interesting twist, many politicians from rural areas and small towns have started to oppose vouchers, even though they're usually quite conservative and therefore they sort to favor vouchers. Their reasoning is that their areas don't have the population bases to support private schools to any extent, and therefore wouldn't benefit from a voucher plan.
Vouchers are nothing but a right wing plan to destroy the last vestige of what America needs very badly now: STRONG UNIONS
Horsefeathers. Vouchers violate the separation of church and state and are in general an extremely bad idea, but they have nothing to do with unions.
And, IMHO, what America absolutely DOESN'T need now is strong unions. There are many things wrong that unions would have you believe they can fix, but experience has shown that, since WWII, unions have been a serious drag on America and are responsible for much of the decline in industrial jobs in America. In addition, union management have proven themselves to be leeches feeding off the workers who get little or nothing in return. Unions are an obstacle to economic progress. They protect the jobs of the incompetent and the unqualified, while the seniority system prevents those who can and will do a good job from getting ahead. A year ago we went through a downsizing at my employer. Certain categories of employees are union, including our administrative support staff; others are not. Within the non-union employees we were able to select the least productive employees for the layoff; within the union employees it had to be done by seniority, which meant that their skills and abilities had nothing to do with it. As a consequence, my boss and I are stuck with an unmotivated secretary who is perpetually tardy, "sick" at least one day a week, is constantly taking a smoke break (and we're on the fourth floor), and can't find the filing cabinet, let alone put anything away in an organized fashion - but our competitor down the road now has one of the finest, most efficient secretaries we've ever known, a woman who had been promoted over many others because she was so good. But that's the union way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Having been a railroad man 33 years..therefore union..I'll accept your feelings and agree that sometimes there are abuses. I always felt the majority had their jobs to do whether they liked them or not and got them done.
We now live in a nation where the corporate big wigs are making huge salaries, yes some have a lot more, most union jobs keep up with the cost of living [what few there are] and the rest are poorer than ever.
Yes, people are making it, but... I read the other day that in the 60's the big shots earned about 40 times what the common workers made, now the ratio is 187 times. This is what I mean.
True I live in a state where median income is the lowest in the country [Montana], maybe it is now 48 or 49 in order of wages, I won't bet on it. But even if you make $9. an hour in NYC, LA, etc that still doesn't give much room for moving up in the world.
No argument, just had to see the other side.
I sort of agree, but its sad that our public school system which is one of the last remaining bastions of socialism in this country having to bowed down before private industry and its for-profit schools as well as parochial schools, whose financial support with taxpayer dollars obviously violates the constitutional separation of church and state. Peace, Thomas:>
NOT ONE CENT OF TAX MONEY SHOULD GO TO RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS, PARTICULARILY SCHOOLS
AMEN!!!
NOT ONE CENT OF TAX MONEY SHOULD GO TO RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS, PARTICULARILY SCHOOLS
I aggree wholeheartedly.
Andrew
I must agree also-it sounds innocent at First, but then later it becomes more and more widespread until we begin to have one or several official state religions, which is what the founders of this country were trying desperately art to get away from. A strict separation of church and state must be adhered to with all times Bush's plan is by its very nature unconstitutional, since it supports religious organizations, albeit under the guise of helping religious organizations that help the needy, with taxpayer dollars. Many of these taxpayers to not know what it's going to be used toward that, or even belong to the religions which are going to receive it. President Bush's plan is fundamentally flawed and is destined for long-term failure. Food for thought: if you want to live in a country where government and religion are pretty much what and the State go hand in hand together, go visit IRAN or some other theocracy, and see how much "freedom" you really have at all there. peace, Thomas:>
fare beating leads to reduced money for new cars, station renovations and leads to higher fares.
And, according to a sign in the Guide-A-Ride at 125/St. Nicholas, less money for graffiti proof trains!
Back when I was in High school, some of us got on some station in brooklyn. One of the stranger kids decided to show his subway pass and walk on through the gate (before the days of metrocards...). Given that it was 2AM, it was pretty damn funny. (well, at the time...).
-Joe (who hasn't evaded the fare in a long, long time, and has no desire to do so anytime soon).
A friend and I did the old 2 for 1 in the turnstile, and once through an 'Iron Maiden'. At some platform-level fare control station on the B'way line, we did this right in front of undercover cops, who yanked us away from the train. I showed proof I was under 16, and they let me go with a warning. My friend had no such proof, and they had to give a call to his parents. Never did so again.
Recently, on PATH, I saw 3 people fare beat:
One jumped over a very low railing at Pavonia/Newport to the right of the Quick Card machine, invisible to the cameras and anyone who wasn't staring right at him.
Another walked in the exit area of 33st.
At Exchange place elevator entrance: Someone reached over the handicapped exit and pushed the bar that unlocked it, did it so fast it seemed like he had paid (probably does it every day).
A couple experiences:
1) During my first year of college, I accompanied my two overly inebriated roommates and a couple friends of theirs on a 3 AM, 38°F walk across the Brooklyn Bridge, which involved first gently persuading then physically removing one of them from climbing the cables. On the trip home, the two with me (the other vanished into the night) decided to jump the turnstile. I sheepishly purchased two additional tokens and rotated the turnstile a couple of times.
2) I was taking two visiting friends with Fun Passes into the HEET-only entrance to the 6 at Bleecker Street. The first to go in grabbed the wrong part of the turnstile and didn't make it to the other side. The second says "use my card," swipes, and lets the first girl go in, before I mention that now she won't be able to get in herself for eighteen minutes. So she & I squeezed in together on my weekly card :).
During my first year of college, I accompanied my two overly inebriated roommates and a couple friends of theirs on a 3 AM, 38°F walk across the Brooklyn Bridge, which involved first gently persuading then physically removing one of them from climbing the cables.
Wow, you could have been an eyewitness to a Darwin Awards experience!
Are there any more stories regarding the subject?
An ironic one on the time I SHOULD'VE "farebeaten"- When I turned 15 my family and I moved across the river to Jersey City to escape the even-then ever upward spiraling cost of living in NYC, although we all continued to work and attend school in NYC. Anyway, one night at the south street seaport, I somehow became seperated from my family on a pleasure outing. I looked for them for hours and simply could not find them, it was like a poor kid's version of "Home Alone". I quickly decided then that my options were:
1. To swim the Hudson to JC, a nearly 2 mile swim through busy shipping lanes.
2. To risk near certain (I thought) arrest by farebeating the PATH subway where turnstiles are monitored by CCTV, and finally,
3. To hike/run all the way up to the GWB, cross it, and hike/jog all the way down the Jersey Palisades to JC, atrip of 20 or so miles and umpteen hours-
4. To haul some major ass through the side service walkway of the holland tunnel.
Of all 4 options, #4 sounded the quickest, easiest, less chance for arrest, at least from a 15 year old mindset.SO I TRIED IT!!
There are CCTV cameras every 30 or so feet all along the pedestrian/service walkway running inside the wayside of the tunnel, and I knew I'd be working with a really small amount of time before inevitable detection:< ! I calculated that if I could hold out at least to the other side of the NY/NJ mosaid tile sign on the tunnel walls, thered be no way the NYPD could touch me legally since I'd be out of jurisdiction. Anyway, I'd calculated correctly and miscalculated. I times it just right, since I was then a track and field star and knew I could do athe first of the two miles in around 5 minutes. I'd just stepped across the line into the NJ half when I heard fast approaching police siren immediately behind me. i knew they was here for me!!! I had my "I'm sorry, but you are out of your jurisdiction, officers!!" speech already prepared in my head when I noticed that they were (*gasp*) PORT AUTHORITY police, much to my dismay, who as you now have bi-state jurisdiction. they put me in the backseat with another officer since I was technically then a juvenile, in handcuffs. They cordially explained to me that I wasn't really under arrest, but that dep't. regs. required any and all in custody in the backseat to be in these, for the protection of the officers. They were pretty cool upon my explaining my story, and simply drove me to the bellmouth at the JC side and set me loose.
Talk about a close call!!! What is trully ironic is that one told me in the car
YOU SHOULDVE JUST GONE UP TO ANY PA COP AND EXPLAINED YOUR SITUATION!!! ANY PA COP WOULDA LET YOU HOP THE TURNSTILE!!! Gee, thanks alot NOW for that bit of knowledge, I thought to myself! Anyways, sometimes it doesnt pay to do the "right" thing, and doing the supposedly "wrong" thing can be alot of fun and payoff!! What do you think!??? Write back. peace, Thomas
NOW THATS WHAT IM TALKIN ABOUT! WHAT A STORY IF I KNEW THEY WOULD NOT ARREST ME I WOULD RUN THROUGH THE TUNNEL TO! Only problem is that I would probably faint since the emissions in the tunnel would make me expire since I would be breathing so hard trying to make it to the otherside running.
LMAO!
Have a good day!
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" Who has yet to conquer the Holland Tunnel VIA foot.
Say, why is it that none of us SubTalkers (my semi-literate self included)can seem to spell a simple word like "FARE"?! Glad you loved my posting, Mr.Mass Transit, and I think as recently as 10 to 15 years ago, the P/A would sponsor these "midnight foot tours" of the tunnel whereby enthusiasts would be allowed to take P/A-lead tours in groups-Don't know if they're still doing this, though. Perhaps you should inquire and post your findings. I obviously don't need to inasmuch as I of course have already sponsored and taken my own foot tour through the Holland Tunnel, and I'm sure the Lincoln one looks looks and smells just the same, esp. when one is hauling ass through it trying to stave off arrest and fumes asphyxiation(!)
I guess its one of those things that one finds incredibly terrifying when it is actually happening but then incredibly funny as hell when one is recounting the dilemma years later, such as in my posting. I know I do. Glad it put a smile on yer face!!!
Peace :> Thomas
P.S.: My next and last endeavor of this variety will be to run through the new 63rd St. Subway Tunnel, except that the proverbial "light at the end of the tunnel" will be a G.D. train coming to run my sorry misguided Subway Enthusiast ass over. Oh well, at least I will have died by what I lived by and loved the most.
Hope its at least a consist of B.S.N. R-142's, at least!!! :<
>>>P.S.: My next and last endeavor of this variety will be to run through the new 63rd St. Subway Tunnel, except that the proverbial "light at the end of the tunnel" will be a G.D. train coming to run my sorry misguided Subway Enthusiast ass over. Oh well, at least I will have died by what I lived by and loved the most.
Hope its at least a consist of B.S.N. R-142's, at least!!!<<<
Well if you run through the LIRR tunnel you won't have to worry about getting run over. Even if it takes you 30 years to cross it! BTW R142's are IRT cars.
Oh yeah!! IRT cars! well then I guess I'll get ran the f*@k over by the LIRR instead, and one with railfan cupolas if you read the funny bogus posting entitled:"Top this rumor if you can". BTW-if you actually believe that, then you'll easily believe my posting about the MTA system become 100% totally FARE FREE on March 1st, 2001!
Peace, Thomas :>
The typo is a deliberate heypaulism.
Still, nobody posted their stories on FEAR evasion.
Regarding the evasion of fear?
"Almost" doesn't count; that guy's still a Darwin Award hopeful, but he hasn't won the prize yet.
LIRR Bi-Level cab car #5001 which has been oos for 15 months due to a sideswipe, is back in service. A friend of mine who is a LIRR engineer piloted the car on the Oyster Bay Branch. He said the repair job was a patch job at best.
Also the cab car involved in a auto vs. train collision on the Port Jeff branch in Nassau County is also back in service. This car had its' front singed when the car erupted in flames. That repair job was reported to be a good one.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm guessing the LIRR hasn't learned how to patch stainless front ends yet? The m-1s are fiberglass, I don't think they patch them when heavily dammaged, I think they just pop a new one on. I always wondered what was behind those panels anyway, if there's any kind of steel barrier to prevent penetration, or what.
Anyway, it can't be that hard to pop a fiberglass front end on. That's be kinda sad, but funny in a way, if one popped OFF the train. As long as nobody gets hurt...
Article about the upcoming Wacker Drive reconstruction in today's Chicago Tribune.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I was on one street on the South side of the Chicago River near the lake, which was elevated and extended about a block toward the lake but then abruptly ended. I think it was one block south of Wacker. What's up with that street? Was it ever planned to extend to the lake?
Randolph?
I think its there to just serve the high rises there. Lake Shore Drive used to be a block to the east, iirc it simply ran into LSD.
Under this road is a train station.
I still remember the infamous S curve where Lake Shore Drive meets Wacker.
Wow, the new, hi-tech concrete supports are expected to last just as long as the old supports. Another reason I say we bring back the 20's. Stuff was just as strong and looked better to boot.
Give me a break. There's nothing "high-tech" about reinforced concrete construction. Concrete is much stronger nowadays than it was before, but even the best concrete will eventually crumble after a few decades of pounding traffic and a few hundred freeze/thaw cycles. 75-80 years is an excellent projected life span; most modern highway bridges and overpasses are only designed to last 50 years. I might remind you that Wacker Drive was built in the 20's, and is now crumbling to pieces.
Such ignorant comments undermine any credibility you may have once had on this board. Sometimes I think you say idiotic things just to provoke a response from people.
-- David
Chicago, IL
They said that the new stuff would last 75-100 years. The old stuff DID last 75 years and it looked much better (something more than circles and rectangles). Crumbling or not, it managed to remain upright for 3/4 of a century and modern stuff can't do much better.
I guess we won't know for another 75 years.
Here's hoping they don't drive any pilings into the freight tunnels THIS time. :)
It sounds like you want another arguement like that Boston Cable stay bridge thread a while back. Newer concrete can withstand a lot more stress than crap from the 20s. One day you might understand that engineering improves things.
The supporting columns, rusted steelwork and other decaying infrastructure on Lower Wacker will then be knocked out and replaced using high-performance concrete that is less susceptible to cracking and water damage and expected to last between 75 and 100 years.
Can we get any for the stations along the Sea Beach Line? Maybe the roof of Chambers Street?
--Mark
A mere 0.5 Gigabucks as compared to 14 Gigabucks - that's a very little Big Dig, but the impact seems far worse. There have been detours, lost ramps and shoo-flies along the way, but THE Big Dig has never closed a main roadway without replacement for more than a few hours.
My sympathy to all Chicagoans.
Gerry
Bet it dont get done until early 2003 at least.......
This evening while railfanning I saw7 train at 82nd street as I saw the car #s pass by I realized that train had more than 1 single it had 3!!!!! 1 on the south end 1 in the middle and 1 on the north end this is/was the consist from South to North: 9461 9460 9338 9562 9563 9325 9555 9554 9317 9423 9422. Im sure they changed this consist by now. its been so long since a single car has been on the south end (other than CITs) in revenue service. I hope they do this again. If I see any more wacky lash ups I ll post it. Regarsds, Tom.
Perhaps the R-36's are being withdrawn for inspection. Stange lashup indeed, without a doubt a Kodak moment.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sounds as if a couple of consists were cut in half and the two ends with the singles lashed together, with yet another single in the middle of all that.
If you want to see a whole train of single R-33s, check out the 2001 subway calendar. There's a photo of them in the Bronx, all decked out in teal and white.
Right now on A&E there is a show on train crash and Death so far it seem to take the position most death are the results of people who do not run the Trains. I did not know that there were over 1200 people killed in train crashes last year.
Before you say 'Last Year' you should find out what year the show was made. You should also do your own double-checking of the facts presented, which are notoriously inaccurate.
-Hank
More people are killed on the roads by cars and trucks, but the public has gotten so used to this that it does not get the notice that it once did. When a train hits someone who deliberately stepped into the right of way, all the news media goes into a frenzy. Go figure.
Warning to anyone else replying to this thread do not post your real E-mail I just got burnt by doing that.
This show has been aired a number of times... it's frightfully inaccurate, indeed I would say that it tends to demonize trains.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey, through my involvement in the railroad industry, my pending application to NYCT,and of course my participation in Subtalk, my wife and several of our closest friends have now convinced themselves that they, too, would like to become NYCT workers (!?!)-they will of course need to test for this, so can anyone out there recomend the publisher, title, and ISBN# of a good test prep guide for NYCT TO, CR, SA, and CTA? I'd (they'd) appreciate it very much. Thanks, peace.
There is a bookstore called "The Civil Service Bookshop" on 89 Worth St between Broadway and Church St. You want it, they'll have it.
Thanks a million, and all of it in vintage antique NYCT subway tokens.
Peace, Thomas
Article in Tuesday's Daily News.
These people just don't refuse to shut up! NYCT had to think, should we inconvience 1 6/4 car line to make 3 10/8 car lines better. Well, what would you do? Actually, it's not even 3 10/8 car lines, it's 1 whole corridor of busy subway service.
You're looking at it wrong. The question is, do you inconvienence 3000 people, or 20,000. (I made the numbers up, but I think anyone with a functional brain cell gets what I'm saying)
-Hank
I believe RonFromBayside once brought up the idea of extending the G from the eventual Court Sq 'terminal' to a lower-level station under today's Queens Plaza station. I thought that's a good idea if it is feasible to build.... Then we'll have a West 4th St-like station complex.
Great idea. Would you do it before or after building the 2nd Ave subway? Extending the 7 to Javitts? Extending the E to SE Queens? The F further out Hillside Ave? The IRT past Brooklyn College?
Better a partial solution to the G: run it at least to QP off-peak, and tell the morons who demand the connection fulltime to stuff it.
The best solution:
Tell G riders to live with it or go to hell. Then begin bringing in dumptrucks of dirt to begin the filling in of the G line tunnels. That'll shut em up.
Sung to the melody of Wagner's Die Walkerye:
"Kill the G train, Kill the G train,
Kill the G train, Kill the G,
Ride the V train, ride the V train
Ride the V train, ride the V,"
Next up for the G line: Single track shuttle service by 4 car R33S trains. LOL.
Gotta wonder what would'be become of the G line had it been elevated.
[Gotta wonder what would'be become of the G line had it been elevated. ]
Razed!
Arti
They tore down so many.
Then they stopped.
Why?
Sanity finally prevailed
Nope, double ended PCC trollies fitted with pickup shoes.
STEP DOWN PLEASE! WATCH YOUR STEP!
avid
At least John Delaney isn't here to see what will become of his once proud "GG" line signal that served a World's Fair.....once upon a time.
>>>These people just don't refuse to shut up! <<
If I lived on a line that was about to be changed substantially I woudn't shut up either. More power to them!
Peace,
ANDEE
A leaked rumor by an uninformed sauce states, The current "G" cut backs will include Changing the "G" to a lower case "f" centered in an inverted triangle. If compalints persist, it will be further lowered to a lower case "s" on a plain white field. Next , will be a hand written piece of cardboard taped to the end of a four car R/38 consist. Do I hear Newark subway PCCs in the winds of change?
avid
The math doesn't lie. The G has to be cut back because Manhattan bound service is going from three express and three local trains to three express and four locals.
But in the face of this credible community concern, a G extension to a new lower level at Queens Plaza (for a one escalator or one elevator transfer) is merited.
"The math doesn't lie. The G has to be cut back because Manhattan bound service is going from three express and three local trains to three express and four locals."
What are these three expresses and three locals?
The three expresses are (Peak Direction service): E, F and 7.
The four locals are: N, R, 7(local) and V (replacing the G at Queens Plaza)
For the purposes of the Queens Blvd discussion, don't include the 7 or the N.
-Hank
I included them only to point out the "big picture," that is, the total subway capacity available to carry people in from central and northern Queens.
"The three expresses are (Peak Direction service): E, F and 7.
The four locals are: N, R, 7(local) and V (replacing the G at Queens Plaza)"
WHAT?! YOU MUST BE CRAZY! The N is not part of this equation. The route is entirely in accessible from the Queens Blvd line!
If that was the case, I wouldn't be complaining about this horrible service so much.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Think Big Picture. The lines listed represent the total subway capacity from Northern and Central Queens to Manhattan. The N does not travel on Queens Blvd, but it does represent a traffic load in the 60th Street tunnel and therefore is part of the total picture.
"The lines listed represent the total subway capacity from Northern and Central Queens to Manhattan. The N does not travel on Queens Blvd, but it does represent a traffic load in the 60th Street tunnel and therefore is part of the total picture."
Yes, but it represents a traffic load in the 60th St tunnel to where? The people at hand live in near or far east queens. Though the N is part of 60th St, anybody who wants to go to Queens Blvd would not take it.
But trains coming from Queens Blvd into the 60th St tunnel share that tunnel with it. So when MTA assigns trains to tunnels, it becomes part of the math.
Well there are two things the MTA could have done to prevent this problem. They should have built a connection between the Court Square and 45th Road stations on the 7 line. This alone would have created a new way that G riders can get into midtown.
Secondly, they need to make the connection to the 23rd/Ely Ave. station a little more easier by installing moving walkways. I haven't walked through that connector for awhile but I'm pretty sure there was plenty of room for it.
And how about bus connections? Will the MTA adjust or add any bus routes that could allow further access into Queens and/or Manhattan?
But we all know, even if all of this was instituted, you will still have the complainers. You can please everyone.
The TA does plan to make a Metrocard transfer between Courthouse Square and Court Square.
Yeah I know, but I just don't see that many people wanting to (1) climb that many stairs and (2) do it when it's snowing/raining/freezing outside. If it was enclosed with an escalator I could see....wait a minute. That explains why they didn't do it. Any connection they build would probably have to pass ADA standards which would make the project extremely costly. Maybe the MTA isn't as dumb as I thought. :o)
That's spell's bad news for G riders.
The MTA Should Make The G Line Go To 179 ST Instead. Not Court Square.
The "fruits" of the 63rd St. extension was supposed to be realized when the R143's were to be running and assigned to ENYD/L line. This would allow other cars to reassigned throughout the division. Since these cars will arrive late, the TA is opening the extension for full service approx. 8/27/01 without them . Therefore, and please excuse the caps, I and other regular and veteran SubTalkers have said this time and time again, but bears repeating: THEY DO NOT HAVE THE CARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm not sure about Court Square's angle towards Manhattan, but is it good enough to turn the G around toward Manhattan after Court Square? If the TA had the money it could connect into, say, the 60th St tubes and run into 57/7 and turn around on the express tracks, seeing as how that won't clog up service because there are no Broadway expresses going to 63rd St.
Actually the Court Sq. thing wouldn't be so bad since the Flushing line also has a Court Sq stop. I'll bet the two lines don't have an enclosed transfer of some sort and am amazed that they didn't consider some expansion, connection, or relay track for it at QBP even if it was a one tracker into QBP so they could turn them around there.
Greenpoint obviously has no political clout. If I lived in the crosstown area and had no choice but to go south or ride the bus, I'd be one mighty honked off camper. And from the sound of what I'm hearing here, it sounds like this might be a permanent line cut. Not that there are any subway or MN lines anywhere near where I live now. FWIW, I still think they should extend the A & C to Albany at least. :)
I testified at the hearing and urged MTA to invest in a new ADA-compliant station cluster there to compensate G riders. I got a written reply in the mail saying they support that concept and will be studying it. If we the public keep up steady pressure something good may happen. We can't be defeatist about it.
The G, as configured by the MTA, will be more like a shuttle line.
True - but we can still try to make it as convenient as possible to use.
Greenpoint obviously has no political clout. If I lived in the crosstown area and had no choice but to go south or ride the bus, I'd be one mighty honked off camper.
And yet Greenpoint is said to be an increasingly desirable resdiential neighborhood. Many people must figure that its other advantages outweigh its poor transit. This is just what I've heard; I don't know much about Greenpoint myself.
I've never lived in Greenpoint, but I've heard it's supposed to be one of the safest neighborhoods in the city. I believe it's mainly Roman Catholic -- Polish and Irish, and perhaps Italian.
Bob Sklar
Article in Tuesday's Times mentions reluctant subway riders who fear contracting diseases from the filthy trains and riders. Samples for bacterial cultures were extracted at the Parsons Blvd station of the F from railings, wooden bench handrests, telephone mouthpiece, and poles and handrails in 2 subway cars. A benign strain of staph was the only bacterium found.
Remember the precipitrons on the R-11s? They did such a good job of sterilizing everything near them (air, people, etc.) they had to be removed.
Alot of people need to know that the best way to avoid germs is to wash your hands before eating (purell is a good substitute) and avoid touching your face. Those are the two best ways to avoid getting sick.
I wash my hands after I'm in a crowded place, such as a subway or bus.
And before I eat I always use purell. I had a nasty stomach flu about a year ago that was so bad I had to go to the E.R.
After that I take no chances, I wash my hands all the time.
The Times' editors must have been desperate to fill white space.
I tell my patients that the only way to avoid other people's germs is to stay at home in a big plastic bubble and never come out.
As for me, I value life too much to worry about nonsense like this. Don't eat off the subway car's floors, do wash your hands before lunch, and don't worry about it!
(As for me, I value life too much to worry about nonsense like this. Don't eat off the subway car's floors, do wash your hands before lunch, and don't worry about it!)
It is nonsense, and I have never heard of anyone worrying about it. HOWEVER, cities are places where people live close together, and compete for economic survival with suburbs that isolate people from each other. Under the circumstances, a major epidemic of a serious infectious disease -- one that could be transmitted on the subway -- would be a bad thing.
So I worry about drug resistent TB, a 1918-style TB outbreak (did anyone avoid the subways then?), bioterrorism, etc. In fact, the Mayor's bunker crowd are very worried about bio-terrorism, but haven't thought much about the possibility of a natural epidemic.
Don't prescribe too many anti-biotics!
HOWEVER, cities are places where people live close together, and compete for economic survival with suburbs that isolate people from each other. Under the circumstances, a major epidemic of a serious infectious disease -- one that could be transmitted on the subway -- would be a bad thing.
So I worry about drug resistent TB, a 1918-style TB outbreak (did anyone avoid the subways then?), bioterrorism, etc.
The way I look at it, if there's a deadly disease organism out there with your name on it, there's zip you can do about it.
There was an outbreak of Spanish influenza in 1918, but no TB outbreak I'm aware of. You're less likely to come down with TB if your immune system is strong.
Indeed, one can become exposed to TB on any crowded public venue.
...Memoirs of the OPEN-LID asbestos trash bin
H and I saw at Stillwell last swingaround..
In response to a previous post I dug thru my archives and sorry but I no longer have the LIRR marker light combination list.
I do still, however, have the pix of an arch roof MP54 with the R32 [etc] type marker lights and a clerestory roof MP54 with marker lights a la IRT [etc] and the headlight that looks like the Manhattan el ones. Except for the owl-face it could almost be an IRT composite from the front*. Including, yes, the levers for manual operation of the doors like the IRT battleships had.
Unfortunately I don't have a scanner. The arch roof pic..from notes on the back, came from an LIRR calendar I was told. The clerestory roof shot came from a street railway journal of 1911 approx. Came with an article on "new steeel cars for the LIRR".
* meaning after their transfer to the els in 1916.
All you so called railfans, always whineing about problems and troubles with the R/142s make me sick! Thats right S I C K sick!
Their fixing this and that. This set was pulled off line. This one has its trucks off!
You cry babies!
I'll bet you ordered R/21s from MTH or a Dealer there of , And I don't hear you Wizzing and moaning through out the night about late deliveries there!
Did you get yours yet?
I thought NOT! When were they due? Last November you say. But thats okay, you'll keep your big mouth shut, because you don't want to make waves. Or Else!
Now say your sorry, and say something nice for a change!
avid
Yes, the new R142A has problems but they're here to stay.
The most stupidest idea I've heard from here financially and logically is the idea of "scrapping" the R142/A cars. These people are total IDIOTS.
With a nod to John Lennon, "All we are saying is give them (the R-142s) a chance."
As bad as the R44 were when new I felt that way too, even if I knew what it meant for the R1-9; well 29 years later they're still around, albeit with much investment in modifications. St. Louis Car Co.'s last cars by the way.
Get railfan windows, or get scrapped. Isn't it the basic theory of getting rid of R142/R142As? :-P
Chaohwa
Why Avid, a glimmer of common sense? I'm impressed!!!!
BTW - I'm s t i l l waiting for my R-21s.
Hey, avid, I'm not whining and complaining. I know all about the waaaay late MTH R-21 cars. We will be waiting till March or April from what I hear now -- if at all (see paragraph below).
Avid/Train Dude/Karl B/assorted railfans: I believe the reason for the delays in the arrival of the MTH O scale R-21's is that the boatload shipment from Korea ran aground off coast and so those mini Redbirds have also been committed to "Davey Jones' Locker" (I bet Davey Jones Locker includes some smelly sweatsocks from heypaul's gym class at Madison High?) Bad joke...:-(
BMTman
They, MTH seem to have gotten full of themselves. I beleive they beleived their suppliers about socalled delivery dates.
We can all be sure the R/32s from MTH will be much later then the alledged August 2001 due date.
We are a captive audience, addicts if you will. The Dealers have it just as bad. To get a dealership , you must take a bunch of items alot of the "O" gauge fans just don't buy. Thats another story. Thanks for the heads up at the scrapyard.
avid
Oh well, if they were made in USA you'd only have to worry about a truck or train wreck and they'd probably survive. I had no delays other than how long it took me to make them. I built my own NYCT fleet mostly old IRT Saved a lot of money too.
For the fun of it[???] on a 12" to the foot note a real live steam loco , built in China and heading for the US was lost at sea several years ago.
Made is USA models..look at Athearn and their prices, competitive to anyone's.
Speaking of which, the folks at Lionsmell have announced that they will be ending US production later this year. The reports I heard conflicted about where it was going to be moved - Mexico or China - but both cited the high cost of labor as the primary reason.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mexico? They tried that before-- no quality-- must be China. Oh, well, I like MTH better anyway.
I wonder if Lionel is going to put out any more Flyer in S gauge. Hard to believe they actually matched Gilbert in terms of length of S gauge production.
It has disturbed me to no end how Lionel had such a limited Flyer production and in my book high priced too. How long has it been? since 1979?They could have come up with a lot of new stuff in that time but in any event American Models has produced some new-from-the-ground-up items, like the GG-1, for less than Lionel soaked for a long existing GP. Better items and cheaper.
OTOH I wonder why "there was no demand" for an S gage SD 40? I'd think S modellers would have loved one; I would have but the prices are what made me start buying Athearn HO. Painfully aware of course that S volume would never be high enough to get prices like HO.
Hey Ed, I was just kidding about the MTH Redbirds being lost at sea. I was making fun of the fact that the real ones are headed that way.
MTH's problems ARE related to some $$$ dispute with the importer from what I've heard (besides the initial delay because of the problem with the roof details).
BMTman
Check your E-mail
avid
I hope the R21 look better than the "Chicago L" cars I've seen in their catalog. Nice detail but they look size and spacing between car wise more like something Marx used to make, or would have.
It is nice to see some of the less than popular items being produced. It was a pleasant surprise to see of all things the NYCentral F-12 ten wheeler produced. They used to run out of Highbridge until 195l so I was lucky to have experienced steam as a child. I can almost forgive them for putting PENNSY trucks under the tender.[also MTH]
As produced, the Chicago "L" cars were much better than the catalog illustrations. The spacing issues you mention were corrected in the production run. Try to see these in the "flesh", they are very well done models.
the reason for the delays in the arrival of the MTH O scale R-21's is that the boatload shipment from Korea ran aground off coast and so those mini Redbirds have also been committed to "Davey Jones' Locker"
Wow ... just like their prototype cousins may end up. Amazing!
--Mark
The MTH R-21 subway sets were delayed due to problems with the roof contour. I don't know of any financial issues with the builder. That's not to say there aren't any, I am just not aware that any played a part in the delays of these models. Originally, MTH used a set of HO scale Images Replicas models as the design study for their O guage models (these also appeared in their catalog, "standing in" for the not yet produced O gauge models). Subsequently, MTH's engineering was informed by the New York Model Transit Association that the roof contour and other details of the Images Replicas models were incorrect. MTH engineering was provided with the NYCTA contract drawings and an HO scale R-21, with correct details, made by Samhongsa and imported by MTS (Samhongsa, who is MTH's builder "lost" their museum R-21). Later, after many go-arounds between Samhongsa and MTH's engineering and the NYCMTA, the drawings were sent to Korea and Samhongsa found their HO scale museum model. A corrected "product of the tool" shot was approved by MTH engineering in late fall of last year and the models were released for production. However, because of the delays in getting the details for these correct, they missed their production "slot" and other models filled in. The end result of all of this is that the models have been delayed. Please be patient. I'm sure that when they arrive, you will be very happy with the trouble that MTH took to get the details right!
Frank, my beef with MTH is that since they are licensed by NYCT (from having done the R-42's) to produce models of the subway fleet there was always the option of MTH engineers to 'go through channels' and get into the yards to do take on-the-spot measurements and photos of the R-21 detailing that was in question. They could have saved themselves much 'trial and error' the first time around.
I also heard MTH contacted Allied Transit for accurate diagrams of the roof detail.
BMTman
I can't help but wish they'd come up with alternate end doors with porthole windows and the plain rectangular ones for alternate models. For the purists they could add the emergency exit glass via a paste on piece. The R21 and R22 AFAIK were identical externally; the porthole end doors and the paste on would create an R17, the plain window doors make an R26 up. Pity to leave out the flexibility that can be had as so many different cars can be modelled around the same exact body. Anybody else agree?
I would ... but only if they "do it in N gauge" ... I've had to settle for Kato for my own desktop subway fleet (36 cars now laid up on 6 tracks in my mini-yard and two 4 car trains out on the railroad - Kato 10-364's - yellow redbird-like JR cars - red not available)
Full-width cabs. Arrrrrgh! But it's all I could ever find in N ...
yellow redbird-like JR cars - red not available
And on the eighth day, G-d created Floquil and an airbrush... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Give them time! Look at the mileage they are getting out of the PCCs.
The same model,differnt color scheme. I'd expect everything you mentioned plus work trains. The roof is probly being made to accecpt the roofs from the R/12 and R/14 and R/15s. Same with the sidedoors.
It'll be a goldmine with different paint jobs.
Same with the R/16s and R/30s.
It would be nice if other manufactures could develope other cars as well. Like Williams or K-Line or Weaver.
Time will be the judge. the demand is there.
avid
Don't worry Ed: I heard that MTH will indeed do variations on the R-21 body to make available limited runs of R-15s & 17's for the more discriminating rapid transit hobbiest (like us)! This will most likely be next year or the year after.
BMTman
I'm not sure anything MTH does is on time. Not only have they delayed the R-21 cars several times, but they also keep pushing back the release date of their Digital Command System (DCS), which runs all of the advanced features of their new Protosound-2 rolling stock (that includes the R-21 and R-32 models) as well as being backward- compatible with the Lionel TMCC system.
By the way, there are several companies that make replacement circuit boards for the MTH trains that make them fully Lionel/TMCC compatible.
I'll probably convert my R-42 to this system.
[I'm not sure anything MTH does is on time.]
True, but I have a feeling alot of that is part of their business strategy. To wit: they advertise waaaaay in advance of the actual release date to get 'pre-sales' from distributors, that way tool-up costs, etc. can be taken care of up front, and also gives them a 'taste' of the market possibilities at the same time.
MTH gets the rapid transit modelers 'salivating' with their advance promo ads about the coming R-32's for August 2001. They know darn well that those cars won't be ready for shipping till AT LEAST this time next year. Again, it's all BS hype to get guys to shell out some bucks in advance, knowing that the cars are 'limited editions' and not available at the retail level.
The proof is in the pudding as they say. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, since they did a decent job with the R-42(albiet out of scale).
BMTman
Actually, I'm glad the R-32's will be delayed...Gives me time to compound interest on $450 that a 4 car set will cost.
Sounds like time for a users group to form and influence manufacturers production. For instance , seek out from OTHER manufacturers transit related products!
Williams, K-Line and Lionel all go overseas for there products. Who ever produces a quality R-1/9 wins my sale! Jerk me around behind a wall of distributers twice means you have the delay designed in you treatment of the end user.
avid
PS "O" Guage Transit Users Group forms to the RIGHT !
MTH did that with the R-32's (go into the yard and get the prototype dimensions first hand). Working from other scale models is common in the industry, and MTH was following well established practices. The NYCTA is not the easiest organization to work with, from what I hear.
Since time is ALWAYS a critical factor in bringing a new model to market, the toy train manufacturers try to go the fastest route. In many cases, using existing models in other scales as design study models, obtaining photos and drawings from enthusiast organizations and historical societies is the best and fastest means to an end. Some transit organizations, like the CTA are VERY easy to work with, and MTH did so directly when they produced the "L" cars last year. Please keep in mind that the engineers at MTH, although very gifted model designers, are by no means "experts" on the NYC subway. They have to rely on other sources of information to produce accurate models. In the case of the R-21's, they initially received some bad information, which was subsequently corrected. Instead of "having a beef" with these guys, applaud their efforts at trying to get the models done right! Yes, Allied Model Transit also helped out with these. Nate Gerstein was one of the members of the New York City Model Transit Association that helped provide prototype information to MTH. So you know that they (MTH) got the "skinny" from the best sources! Now, let's all wait and see what the team in Maryland can come up with.
Recently, a video of our commitee meeting about the proposed NB to Hartford Busway aired. Basically, they went over the route which, in part, would run along with the existing Amtrak line. It would start at an abandoned Greenfield's supermarket on Main Strret in New Britain. From there, it would travel north and east, up towards CCSU (Central CT State University), move into Newington and meet up with Amtrak. There would be limited stops with Kiss and Ride (?) commuter service. The main sticking points, besides the EPA, are how would this cross certain intersections? Would ConnDOT make at-grade crossings or consturct underpasses and/or overpasses?
Another question is how much would the fare be for this route? CT Transit currently has its' "P" route, from its' Hartford division. The fare in either direction is $1 and currently terminates on Bank Street, which is one block south of the afformentioned starting point for the Busway. The ride takes at least 40 minutes on most trips (none of it is along interstate or other divided highways). That's also because this route also services Newington center. If you walk two blocks to the west, you can get limited service with Peter Pan and Greyhound from Jimmy's Smoke Shop on West Main Street. (Warning: A one-way connector to Hartford this way is $10!)
in today's times, randy kennedy, noted author of the article on railfans, asked the chief of infectious diseases at a local medical center to conduct an investigation into the presence of germs in the subways... the doctor only tested for bacteria at the parsons boulevard station in queens... no attempt was made to test for the presence of viruses, especially the much feared heypaul virus...
the article mentioned that the doctor washes his hands quite frequently during the day... that gave me an idea that a more helpful improvement for the new cars would be to have a sink with running water and soap for customers to wash their hands during the subway ride... as for drying their hands, i would strongly recommend getting one of those cloth towel devices in which the same cloth towel revolves between two rollers...the towel could be changed every time the car goes in for a major overhaul, which in the case of the r-142's would be every 10 days ( just thought i'd get in a shot on the new cars )
anyway here's the link to the article:
article on germs in the subway
NSTITUTE OF ELECTRICAL AND ELECTRONICS ENGINEERS, INC.
NY Section
Rail Rapid Transit Vehicle Innovations Forum
April 24, 2001, 6:00 to 8:00PM
Host: Nortel NetWorks 320 Park Avenue, (50th ST) New York City
The IEEE NYC Section Vehicular Technology Society Chapter will sponsor a technology-sharing forum on the New York City Transit R-143 Rail Car propulsion, control, and signage systems. The lead panelist, Mr. Erwin Schaeffer, New York City Transit's Project Manager for the R-143 contract, wilr explain and answer questions on this fleet of new technology, Rapid Transit vehicles.
Systems engineers, suppliers, installers, and operators are invited to share insights. Future IEEE NY Section, VTS Technology Sharing forums are being planned for:
Fiber Optic Communication networks for Rail Vehicle control,
Automatic Bus Location and Control Systems, and
Wayside and Railcar PA and Customer Information Systems
,
There is a $35.00 charge,for the forum and refreshments commencing 5:30 PM.
Advance registration Is required for admission. IEEE Members and nonmembers may register for the April 24, 2001 forum by sending $35.00 checks payable to IEEE NY Section to Brad Craig, Louis T. Klauder and Associates, 317 Madison Avenue, Suite 1621, New York, New York 10017. If you are an IEEE member, please provide your membership number and indicate if your interest In paltictpating in one or more of the planned forums.
'
Additional information regarding program specifics can be obtained by contacting Mr. David Horn of Fluor Daniel Infrastructure, at (212) 947-7110, or by e-mail at david.horn@fluor.com.
Attached is the first draft of the letter to the museum about the Centennial celebration. If you wish to sign, please *EMAIL* me your real name and mailing address, and whether or not you are a transit museum member. Post comments for discussion...
Thanks,
Dave
To whom it may concern:
In a recent mailing to members, the New York Transit Museum requested
suggestions for ways to commemorate the Centennial of New York's first
subway in 2004. We, the undersigned contributors to the web site
known as www.nycsubway.org, have decided to pool our ideas and would
like to see them considered for the Centennial celebration.
- The most important single item that should be considered for the
Centennial celebration is the completion of City Hall Station as an
Annex of the Transit Museum. This project began in 1995 and even
received grant money for its implementation. The political issues
surrounding this project must be resolved and the project should be
completed as soon as possible as originally intended. A special
"press run" from City Hall should be held on the anniversary date,
mimicing the original ceremonies in 1904. Once City Hall is
completed, it will again be the showpiece of the subway and a site the
Transit Museum can capitalize on as a place to hold fundraising
efforts.
- The available "fan trip trains" must be restored to full running and
cosmetic order (the IRT Low-V, the BMT D-Types, and the BMT
Standards). In addition a train of IND prewar cars such as those
sitting out at Coney Island Yard should be restored such that each
division of the subway has at least one early train available.
The trains could be assigned to shuttle runs, similar to the 1994
assignment of the IRT Low-V train to the 42nd Street Shuttle for the
90th Anniversary, and placed on static display when not in use. The
lower level of 9th Avenue, Brooklyn, could be made into a Transit
Museum Annex to store restored cars out of harm's (and the weather's)
way.
- Include all of the divisions of the subway in the Centennial
proceedings. Whereas the date of October 27, 1904 will be forever
associated with the opening of the IRT, the other milestone dates in
the history of the subway are less well known and are not likely to be
remembered when their centennials come around. Including the former
BMT and Independent lines in the 2004 centennial will also allow use
of facilities that would not be included in an "IRT-only" celebration.
- Resume the "Day One on the IRT" tours, including visits to the
closed stations. Again, best efforts should be made to resolve any
political issues surrounding these tours. Tours could be run each
month.
- A restoration of one of the other "abandoned" stations of the
original IRT, (consider 91st Street or 18th Street) to as-new Day One
appearance. Tours of this would be of course included on the "Day One
on the IRT" tours but could also be used as a reception space for
fund-raising efforts. When not in use, the station would remain lit
(and secured).
- Additional historic cars reside at area trolley museums in various
states of disrepair, and perhaps these institutions would be willing
to participate in a joint effort to restore their own holdings.
- Fund the research and publication of a scholarly work that will
address authoritatively many of the issues surrounding the design,
construction, and impact of the subway on New York City. A section of
the book could be devoted to "subway mysteries", for instance, did
August Belmont really use his private car "Mineola" to travel the
subway and LIRR to his racetrack? Draw on the (presumably) extensive
MTA/museum archives to publish the definitive history of the subway.
All of the suggestions, no matter the source, of course depend on
funding. The MTA/museum web site should be used to describe all of the
Centennial projects, exactly what it will take in terms of money and
effort to complete them, and how close to the goal the effort has
come. To raise the money, begin a campaign throughout New York City
businesses and philanthropic organizations; prepare a brochure or web
site describing the importance of the subway on the City to encourage
private participation in the funding of these activities.
Once grant money is obtained and the projects decided upon,
restoration of facilities and rolling stock can be outsourced to
professional contractors and car rebuilders if necessary to ensure
on-time completion without impacting MTA facilities.
A promotional campaign should include commemorative items such as
t-shirts and posters, with proceeds going to the "Centennial fund,"
for instance, a collection of poster-sized maps indicating the state
of rapid transit in New York City in various years (1904, 1954, 2004,
and future plans), a series of commemorative Metrocards with early
photos of the subway, etc.
Please feel free to contact me if I (or www.nycsubway.org) can be of
any service in developing or implementing projects for the Centennial
celebration.
(signed)
David Pirmann
Webmaster, www.nycsubway.org
etc.
Looks great Dave. My real name and address is in the E-mail.
Dave -
You've got my blessing - and Jr.'s as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dave, An excelent write up. I can't suggest the change of a single word ! BTW, I've e-mailed you authorization to add my signature.
Mr t__:^)
Dave,
It is a very good letter. I totally agree. My information is sent via e-mail.
Chaohwa
Thanks, we're up to 19 signers so far. I don't think i missed any replies but here's a list (by handle) so far...
me
michael adler
bob andersen
high street/brooklyn bridge
allan
faxman
chao-hwa chen
thurston
todd glickman
alex L
anon_e_mouse sr. and jr.
bill newkirk
selkirktmo
mr night train show
ripta42hopetunnel
paul polischuk
peter rosa
henry r32 3730
gary & rosanne wengeroff
Add RonInBayside to your list (sent you an email)
Add me too. Email is on the way.
Let me SHOUT OUT to the rest of you ... sign up, why not ?
As a group this is something that most should be able to rally around, if you don't and the event ends up a flop you'll feel real quilty ?
Mr t__:^)
Dave,
About the abandoned stations, could you include Worth Street on the list?
I don't whether this is good idea. The orginal names of 149 Street-- 2/5 Station and 138 Street-- 4/5 Station are Mott Avenue and Mott Haven. Can we tell them to show these old names for historical purpose?
Chaohwa
I could add Worth Street but the point of that was to suggest picking a station and renovating a half of it, not to pick them all. I'm sure they know what stations are 'available' and I listed 91st and 18th because they've previously used them for "day one" whereas I think there's not much left of Worth St.
As for changing station names, I don't know if that's such a great idea. I think the stations up in that area are confusing enough as it is :-)
-Dave
Oh, Worth St. is still there. One of the platforms was even lengthened before the station was closed. There was construction going on in that vicinity last fall, and the southbound platform was illuminated by the work lights strung along the tunnel.
I've emailed my info to you.
Not to nitpick, but only the downtown side of Worth St is workable. The uptown (shorter) side has a big cinder block wall in the middle and is in really awful shape.
That's the side that was illuminated last fall. Thanks for the info.
Well, at 138th Street, the tiles do still say "MH" for Mott Haven. And, last I visited, there is still a "Mott Avenue" sign showing at 149th St (on the 2/5 platforms). All one would have to do to commemmorate the name change is install a plaque that explains the history of the name changes, sort of like those historical markers you see on roads across NY and NJ.
--Mark
I'm in. The e-mail is on its way.
Dave ...
Just sent you my info to be included as a signer.
Food for thought:
- An open house at a designated yard representing each subway division (i.e. Coney Island for the BMT, 207th St for the BMT and Westchester Yard for the IRT) sometime during 2004.
- A "transit on parade" day, where special equipment would be "paraded" on the center track of the Culver Line. The equipment would typically be those cars not normally seen by the public, i.e. the revenue collection cars, the vacuum train, a representative sample of MOW equipment, etc. Of course, the museum equipment should be included as well. Layups for the equipment could be stored between 7th Ave and Church Ave on the IND South Brooklyn Line, work its way south along the Culver Line and terminate in the Coney Island yard. A series of transit museum lectures could precede this event.
Regarding this paragraph ...
The trains could be assigned to shuttle runs, similar to the 1994 assignment of the IRT Low-V train to the 42nd Street Shuttle for the 90th Anniversary, and placed on static display when not in use. The lower level of 9th Avenue, Brooklyn, could be made into a Transit Museum Annex to store restored cars out of harm's (and the weather's)
way.
- how about incorporating the idea of running these as specials not limited to shuttle runs. For example, on designated weekends, the IND R9s could traverse the Culver Line express tracks from Kings Highway to 7th Ave on a predetermined schedule, and could run as "extras" (that is, no additional fee to ride the special). The D-Types or BMT Standards could ply the Brighton Line express tracks from Prospect Park to Ocean Parkway. The Lo-Vs could run between Pelham Bay Park and 3rd Ave / 138th Street, all without interfering with regularly scheduled revenue trains.
Regarding this paragraph ....
Fund the research and publication of a scholarly work that will
address authoritatively many of the issues surrounding the design,
construction, and impact of the subway on New York City. A section of
the book could be devoted to "subway mysteries", for instance, did
August Belmont really use his private car "Mineola" to travel the
subway and LIRR to his racetrack? Draw on the (presumably) extensive
MTA/museum archives to publish the definitive history of the subway.
- absolutely include something about the IND Second System. Other than the information I've posted to this site myself, there's no definitve reference to this information out anywhere "for general consumption". (If there is, someone point me to it!!) This is a fascinating subject. What we don't want to include is information already published (Cudahy, Fischler, et al).
Regarding the paragraph ...
A promotional campaign should include commemorative items such as t-shirts and posters, with proceeds going to the "Centennial fund,"for instance, a collection of poster-sized maps indicating the state of rapid transit in New York City in various years (1904, 1954, 2004, and future plans), a series of commemorative Metrocards with early photos of the subway, etc.
- perhaps encourage the transit museum itself to have their own fund raising events such as:
- another auction and tag sale
- dinner and a Broadway show at a "premium fare" (D-types pick up guests at 59th St / Columbus Circle and take them to the Transit Museum, dinner is held at the Transit Museum, the D-Types take the guests from the museum to the Broadway show chosen)
How's that? :)
--Mark
I'm in--letter seems well written.
seen it last night in the Bronx on Baily ave. in blue plastic wrap heading to Yonkers for further assembly. stock # 7404. at 8:50 P.M. its amazing to see something big and jacked up on a flat bed not hit any traffic lights.
A neighbor showed me two New York State quarters that he got in change from a Baltimore Metro change making machine at Owings Mills.
I am under the impression that this quarter was just released in the last few days, so I was rather surprised that he got two of them in change from Baltimore Metro.
Isn't this a bit unusual?
Incidentally, the New York quarter is very attractive!
If they came from the Philadelphia Mint, that's not surprising.
I've been following the appearance of these state quarters since they first started coming out. The distribution system is remarkably efficient. Nothing unusual about your friend's experience
Whenever a new quarter comes out my bank will often give out entire quarter rolls with new quarters.
I just got my first one yesterday at McDonalds on Maurice Ave by the LIE.
-Hank
They are attractive quarters, aren't they?
We used to turn off the LIE to Maurice Ave. when going to the Church of the Transfiguration. I don't ever remember seeing a McDonald's there, but then that was 30 years ago.
I did alot of Railfanning today. I rode PATH's red line. Then rode the entire A line, then the G, to the E back home. I asked a Motorman at 207th street what time does Local service start. He told me 1100 at night until 6 in the morning. But he says the E starts at 12 midnight in Queens. Can anyone tell me what time it starts?
On average, late night service begins at 11 pm. 10:30 pm on the A.
Depends on the line No?
R shuttle (to 36th St./4th Ave) does not start until 1/2am.
Check the MTA web site for the subway schedules.
Sorry Lou, but the R shuttle doesn't begin that late.
The last R to Queens leaves 95 St at 10:35 pm, the first R shuttle leaves at 10:52 pm.
It depends on the routes. You have to look up the route schedule for details.
Chaohwa
Queens Blvd is around 11 or 11:30 PM. The last few southbound Rs terminate at Canal or other Manhattan locations. The IRT lines loose express service at about midnight.
Queens Blvd will get Manhattan bound express service back a little before 6 AM, the Queens bound express returns a little after 6.
I am thinking of taking the Amtrak up to Montreal this spring break in order to check out the Montreal Metro and the AMT commuter trains. Any tips? Are the AMT nice and frequent so I will not find myself stranded in the suburbs? Any info would be most helpful.
Everything you'd ever want to know can be found here:
http://www.stcum.qc.ca/
It's a LOVELY subway ... not anywhere near as big as New York but VERY nice just the same. Full width cabs though - be warned. :)
Not even a place to peek through. At least you can see something on an R46.
True, but this time of year it's so cold up there, you'll just be pleased to see a train. Gets so cold up in Montreal, the biggest treat is all of the underground passages throughout the city. You can hit up most of the stores downtown without ever emerging from the subway. Handy feature. Makes ya forgive the downside. And the tunnels are lit, you can sorta see - it just isn't the same view folks had been used to in NYC.
The Toronto and Montreal underground cities are great! Philly too has tunnels throughout downtown, but most businesses that were once connected to them have sealed off their doors. The weather here doesn't justify it most of the year, and once the pedestrian traffic drops off below a certain point, it loses its appeal (and presumed safety) very rapidly. Maybe the promised rehab of Suburban Station can turn things around...
Up in the great white north, it's necessary and well patrolled. Not that you aren't just as safe on the surface up there. Up where I live, NYC and Montreal are about the same distance. Montreal still has tittie bars you can bring your wife to. Guess which way I head for fun? Rudy and his magic rodent on 42nd has kinda ruined "Fun City." :)
Montreal's my favorite city in the world for fun. But only 6 months out of the year as I was raised near TPA, FL.
Heh. In the summer, it gets as sticky and hot as NYC. ANOTHER reason for the underground city! I heartily recommend the trip to Montreal for anyone who hasn't been there before with the following bit of advice for folks from the city ...
1) People in Montreal speak French. They don't feel compelled to speak English - learn enough French to know that signs that say "Arret" *really* mean STOP - "droit" is "right," "gauche" is
"left" and "sortie" means "exit." While written signs are in both English and French, the French is usually twice the size of English and if you need to ask someone for directions, you're better off doing it in French, especially on the outskirts of the city. Most folks are bilingual, but not all.
2) People in Montreal are excessively polite and friendly. Don't push your luck or be rude or they will fart in your general direction with an evil smirk. Loud conversation and noises are considered rude except when it's "Bonne Annee" ...
3) Canadiens LOVE those pieces of paper with pictures of Andrew Jackson on them - dispense as many as you can and savor in how nice people can be when playing "spot the president" ...
4) SMILE a lot - it causes the locals to treat you like a local. Montreal is a happy place with REAL food, REAL butter and Cuban cigars. You'll never want to eat MickieD's or a Blimpie again. :)
LOL, you're sure right about number 3! I remember shopping in an A&P supermarket. The total was about $11. I asked the clerk (in english) if she'd accept a US$20. She responded with a rather enthusiastic OH YEAH!!!
Sure thing there, sparky! They take the US$20 and substitute a CA$20 and end up with a NICE tip. We had our own entourage in short order as though we was movie stars or politicos. They LOVE dead presidents up yonder. (grin) Hell of a nice place though and they do know how to run a railroad.
Canada is rated by the U.N. as the best country in the world as far as quality of life. If it weren't for the weather, I might believe Kofi.
Montreal still has tittie bars you can bring your wife to.
Depends on the wife!
Heh. I s'pose it does ... but then again, Montreal ain't exactly Show World Center either. :)
The Adirondack is a wonderful ride - we rode it last August at the end of a trip that began with a ride to Toronto on the Maple Leaf and included Via Rail to Montréal (an overnight ride in a sleeper) and also up to Québec City and back. The Metro is quite nice too, although once you've seen one piece of it you've seen it all - there's no above-ground running and the tunnels all look about the same. We enjoyed the Toronto subway more, plus they have the CLRVs running in many places around the city. If you do go, though, and have the time, take the ride up to Québec City and back (stay overnight a couple of nights there) - the Old City is incredibly beautiful and the restaurants are wonderful. If you can find my posts from late August on the subject I detailed the trip over several posts, including restaurant and hotel reviews from all three cities :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't forget to make a trip to the Air Canada Center for some Mapleleafs hockey!
Wrong city, mate. Molson Centre, Canadiens...
Yeah, since they're an original six team, add a visit to the Molson Centre!
Combining Food and Metro: Take the line up St.Denis above Sherbrooke for many great spots to eat. During the day go to the JeanTalon stop for the Italian market or Lionel-Groulx for the more Francais Atwater Market (got the station spelling off my rare Metro T-Shirt I bought in Old Montreal once.. look for it). Chinatown is small but cute. I normally stay at Hotels on Sherbrooke (Delta/HolidayInn) 1 block from McGill stop. A good thing to do with a car so you don't pay is park at Angrinon all weekend for free and use the Metro. But if you come by rail, I guess that doesn't matter. Have fun. We go twice a year.
We stayed at the Renaissance Hotel du Parc. A few blocks from there is a restaurant named Laloux - upscale but not elaborate, we were probably the only tourists there, and it was almost full. Next time we're in Montréal we'll go back, that's for sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am comming home this friday for a ski trip. I will be arriving on Amtrak Train #99 due in at 30th St. at 3:27 PM. If either Pigs or Keystone Pete wants to me meet me and then ride Septa to Market East and then PATCO to Haddonfield that's fine with me. Pigs, I could show you my house and my cool railfan stuff, maybe even supply a home cooked meal and then drive you back to your car at Woodcrest.
I noticed that no one mentioned the Super Bowl where the Giants got their clocks cleaned by the Ravens. It wasn't fun and I wanted the New Yorkers to win. But the day was ruined from the beginning when the Knicks whipped our Lakers. What I'm doing is making a preemptrive strike because last spring when the Lakers won the NBA Championship I was so elated with joy that I burned up the website with paens towards our great team. Well even though the season is just half over, I'm throwing in the towel. The Lakers suck and it will probably get worse. Your Knicks have a better chance to getting to the finals than my Lakers do. As for the Giants flaming out, they still had a great season and their coach, a California boy by the way, really showed some guts with his predictions of a sure playoff.
The game wasn't close enough to be of interest. I was afraid of that. With two great defenses, if one team gets a little behind and starts gambling to catch up, it falls further behind.
In the playoffs, as a result of a fumble, the Giants went up 14-0. When the Vikings abandoned the running game and tried to come back, the result was a 41-0 loss.
In the Super Bowl, the Giants were down 10 - 0 and were facing 2nd and 18. If it's tied they run into the line twice and punt. But down 10-0, they tried a pass and the Ravens D was in a position to gamble. I said "this is the situation where you get an interception for a touchdown" and bang, it happened. Game over.
I wonder if they took the train to Baltimore.
I wonder if they took the train to Baltimore.
Evidently, because they sure didn't show up at the Super Bowl in Tampa :D
I wonder if they took the train to Baltimore.
The Super Bowl is never held in cold areas, it's always held in the South, including America's Whang where this year's was.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
It probably was a good thing that I wasn't watching the Giants get taken to the cleaners on TV rather I was listening to the Giants getting taken to the cleaners by the Baltimore Ravens on the radio while I was eating dinner and then doing something on my computer. The Giants were cleaned out thoroughly. Quoth the raven "nevermore" according to Edgar Allen Poe. To say the least I didn't enjoy the game very much. Baltimore had 2 defensive backs that were almost as big as "Refrigerator" Perry. The Giants were no match against that defense. They were washed, dried and folded neatly by the Ravens. I hope they're back in the Super Bowl next year. The subway series was more exciting because at least one New York team had to win.
BMTJeff
Subway Series? Now you're talking. I'd love to have a rematch between the Mets and Yankees next fall, only reverse the result. If that occurs, I don't give a damn what it costs. I"M COMING!!!!!!!!
I'm still a New York fan when it comes to pro sports, the Giants and Mets in particular. Naturally, I was bummed that the Giants were never in the game.
It was too bad that the Giants were taken to the cleaners by the Ravens. I hope that they're back in the Super Bowl next year.
BMTJeff
Rumor has it that the Giants got that 41-0 shutout in the NFC Champ game was due to the fact that they tapped into the radio transmissions of their opponent and then adjusted their play to counter it.
The rumor also says that aware of that tactic, they used radios with a totally different frequncy to thwart the Giants.
Of course, they may have "Flamed out" due to the suffocating defense of the Ravens.
A good defense will win games for you. A great defense can win championships. Look at the '85 Bears. I think the St. Louis Rams found that out. You can't expect to just outscore your opponent week in, week out.
And I'll yell it out to anyone who will hear me, the Baltimore defense is the greatest in the history of pro-football, bar none. It was a meatgrinder, pure and simple.
I would agree with you that the Giants "Flamed out" due to the defense og the Baltimore Ravens. They were too much for the Giants.
BMTJeff
I would agree with you that the Giants "Flamed out" due to the defense of the Baltimore Ravens. They were too much for the Giants.
BMTJeff
Who would have thought they would have gotten that far. In Vegas they were 50-1 to win the NFC East 75-1 The NFL and $90-1 to win the Super Bowl. The Odds on the rAVENS WERE A LITTLE HIGHER. This was last Spring in April when I was there. At least i scored $10.00 bets on the first 2, but lost $20.00 on the Super Bowl.
Hey Steve, don't complain because it's been a good year for New York sports. Both baseball teams won their leagues, the Knicks did a pretty good job, and the football Giants went to the Super Bowl. Look out here, no football team, two dorky baseball teams, two even dorkier hockey teams, one basketball team that's a chronic loser, and the other, a supposed defending champion, that is flaming out big time. Now that;s something to complain about. Fortunately for me, I only root for one of those teams.
This marked the fourth New York/Baltimore championship matchup in football. Baltimore has taken three of four, all from the Giants. New York's only win was in Super Bowl III, thanks to Broadway Joe.
Lest anyone forget, the Miracle Mets took the Orioles in the '69 World Series.
I'd love to have a rematch between the Mets and Yankees next fall, only reverse the result.
You mean the Yankees winning the Series at Yankee Stadium? :)
Right On, but I wished they were able to keep Cone,
Don't be a smart ass, you know exactly what I mean. This year is the Mets' turn.
"" how bout them RAIDERS ""
( oakland raiders ) ....
OFF topic
Come on, don't be a stick in the mud. A little variety can help. Besides we're shown that sports and rail transport are intertwined. I ran yesterday in my #7 and #4 Subway Series shirt. That ought to prove my point.
I loved the Raiders when they played in LA. I still have a feeling for them but I became a Dolphins fan after the Silver and Black left. And how come I can't get ahold of you by phone? I've just about giving up trying. Try buzzing me because it's probably the only way we're are going to touch base. Let me know if you have it.
I have read a number of the posts on this topic, and I have only one thoroughly obnoxious comment to make (and I am going to sincerely make it)..
LONG LIVE THE DALLAS COWBOYS!!!
NY Times article today reviewed Balto-DC MAGLEV possible routes (I-95 median, AMTRAK corridor, B-W Parkway median) and brought up the possible NIMBY opposition. The article mentioned that there would be one stop between Baltimore and DC. That means that residents of most of the neighborhoods near the proposed routes would be subject to all the unpleasantness of a nearby MAGLEV route without deriving any usefulness from it. The only intermediate stop would be at BWI airport.
Why even bother fighting it? Maglev is a dead technology. Transrapid is so desperate to sell it, they're going to China (who likely only wants it for technology anyway). There is no US maglev project I know of that's even close to prototype stage, letalone a full system. It's an obnoxiously expensive technology that has no advantages and many disadvantages. Without doubt, any Maglev built anywhere anytime soon will be a Transrapid system anyway, so it's not helping our economy.
Oh yes, and there is *no* data whatsoever on how these things stand up in actual service.
"Why even bother fighting it? Maglev is a dead technology."
Because the Federal budget allots the same amount of money, $25 million, for maglev as it does for regular, achievable, high-speed rail. The $25 million spent on regular high-speed rail results in several grade-crossing eliminations or improvements each year, which brings several non-electric high-speed rail projects outside the NEC closer to operation. The same sum spent on maglev doesn't get diddly-squat except on paper. IMHO, the whole $50 million should be going into the regular high-speed rail, where the government will get more bang for OUR buck.
This thing is as dead as the proverbial dodo. The B-W Parkway median is out, as below MD 185 it's owned by the Feds. They won't even widen it to 3 lanes, despite the traffic load it carries. AMTRAK doesn't want it near its track, plus there's a lot of places where the ROW isn't wide enough for both. As to the I-95 route, what to you do at the Capital Beltway? There's no way to get it into DC.
The NIMBY's will come out in droves when the word gets out about those very strong magnetic fields. Hell, they don't want cell towers around them (even though they love their cell phones) partially due the "ugliness" and partially the magnetic fields from the cell transmissions, no doubt fueled by the cancer from cell phones scare.
And the most objectionable part of MAGLEV? It's a damned ELEVATED!!!
Railpace Hot News announced that CN is merging with (acquiring) Wisconsin Central for US$1.2 billion, including US$400 million in debt. (Scroll down a couple stories)
And here is Trains' version.
Why are we letting the Canadians buy all of our railroads. This is a majour black spot on our national pride. I hope the STB blocks it!
majour blot. eh
okay, so what part of NAFTA don't you understand?
The point it to allow free trade, not to have one country bought out by another.
As someone who actually has seen what Canada does when it comes to our junkyard and buys wrecked railroads, I can attest that letting CN or CP buy up a railroad is a GOOD thing ... first thing CP did when they purchased the smoking crater of the D&H from Guilford was to put some PAINT on the locomotives, hurry them all up to Quebec where the cylinders all got replaced (no more belching black smoke at idle) and then resignalled and replaced all the rails ...
3MPH on the mainline was replaced by 45-60MPH on the main line, all the bridges got rehabbed, the crews got raises and schedules that allowed them to see their families once in a while. The crews were *SO* happy with their new employers that they volunteered to paint over the grungy G's on the rolling stock ON THEIR OWN TIME! And of course CP bought beers for everybody at the paint party at the Kenwood yards a couple of years ago.
The only reason why Canada is scooping them up is that we're tossing them away like so many redbirds. We do not maintain our railroads, whereas in Canada, they KNOW the value of steel highways. But they wouldn't be buying them if our geniuses here were able to make a profit on them. I'm sure the WC crews will be just as happy as the crews here were once they're working for an employer that actually has a clue as to how to operate a railroad and keep people happy.
Choosing between CP or NC and CXS or NS is truly a no brainer.
Brain cramp ... the last line:
Choosing between CP or NC and CXS or NS is truly a no brainer.
should have read:
Choosing between CP or CN and CSX or NS is truly a no brainer.
Damn! Dead on hours again ... or at least from the neck up. :)
did when they purchased the smoking crater of the D&H from Guilford was to put some PAINT on the locomotives,
That's the Problem! They painted over the Lightning Stripes with that stupid guilded rat.
I really can't stand CP/CN because they always promice to keel the local flavour, but then they always go back on their word. The historic Illinios Central name and look will soo disappear and I'
ll bet WC will fade even faster. I wonder how long it will be before those wonder SD-45's are sent off the the scrapper. I am so sorry that Ed Burkheart wasn't able to regain control of his company and prevent this travisty. I absolutely despise CN. I hate the way their locos look and I hate the way they are invading our country and removing the last spek of diversity from the American railroad sceen. The next victims of this Canadian expantionist policy? I'd buy stock in the Reading and Northern and KCS. They'll be flying the maple leaf before long.
>>>I'd buy stock in the Reading and Northern and KCS. They'll be flying the maple leaf before long.<<<
Good! After reading what Selkirk said about the D&H employees when it was bought out by CP, how in the world do you expect your arguments to hold water against that?
I'm arguing that maybe American railroads should just do a better job. I just so sick of seeing red (paint). AFAIK the R&N and KCS are doing very well, but it dosen't matter. CN/CP do not only buy bad railroads, they buy all railroads. Soon there will be 3 companies left, CN, CP and UP. Might as well pack up my camera at that point. The only good thing is that CN/CP use mad speed heavy signaling and are also partial to searchlight signals and NYC style round signals. At least they'll get rid of the route signaling on the WC.
Thank ya, bro! Posted a picture of the restoration of just ONE of the 50 some odd GP-32's they had. The 38's are a whole lot shinier. They even restored a pair of ... (gasp!) ... ALCO PA1's!!! Bridge line color scheme and striping too. Details are perfect. And they USE it!
According to my news source they have "guilded" all their Geeps sans one and it dosen't even have D&H written on it any more.
PS: They are GP39-2's. There is no GP32.
Not so on the D&H paint scheme ... there's seven that I know of right here within a couple of miles in regular use.
Mystery solved - It was a GP38-2 ... my whoopsies ...
Just wanted to add one more tidbit for anyone interested in additional EXTERNAL comments on our primary local railroad - the D&H and what Mellon Bank and Guilford did to it, check out this D&H oriented "subtalk" site for the opinions of others on CP taking over D&H ...
http://www.railroad.net/forums/load/dandh/msg0915111418562.html
Now from a railfanning point of view, the D&H locos do NOT leave D&H territory and most of them are reserved for use on Adirondack scenic routes (D&H provides the power for tourist trains on lease since most of the passenger cars are ex-D&H) but they DO get used and there's 7 of them that are still in D&H varnish and when tourist season is done, they're used in yard duty over the winter.
But you won't hear any of the BLE boys complaining about CP. Not after Guilford.
Ummm ... you see the GP32 to the left? This is but one of the many Guilfords that went to Montreal for repainting. Looks like a pretty good job to me in perfectly restoring a D&H loco - the GP32's and 38's are alive and well with completely rebuilt prime movers, all new plumbing and all.
Perhaps CN is no thrill but this is Canadian Pacific country here in upstate New York. Whole different ballgame and everybody here is quite happy. Then again, Amtrak would be an improvement over the Mellon Bank which is now left with just "Springfield Terminal' ... I'll bet that operation is still running the G's with a black cloud that can be seen for 50 miles around so you can tell where the one working loco is.
CP on the other hand knows how to run a railroad and has a sense of the history of the lines they've taken over. They've rebuild all but two of the old Jeeps that run reliably in regular service upstate.
What can I say? Vive le Quebecois ...
Ummm ... you see the GP32 to the left? This is but one of the many Guilfords that went to Montreal for repainting.
There is no such thing was a GP-32. The D&H used GP-38's and former Reading GP-39's. Furthermore, all the repainted locomotives have been given the guilded rat treatment. The only one the preserved in the Lightning stripe wasn't re-painted, it was restored. They wouldn't cough up the cash for a historic re-painting. CP completely eliminated the D&H and SL&H operating units. THEY FREAKING KILLED THE D&H! I'm glad that the operations have improved (would have prefered a US carrier to do it), but CN and CP keep going around saying they'll preserve the local flavour of the old roads. Like a seperate but equal kind of thing. Well time and time again they have gone back on their word and completely eliminated the all vestiges of the former American line and installed their blinding red Canadian propaganda.
Then again, Amtrak would be an improvement over the Mellon Bank which is now left with just "Springfield Terminal' ...
Explain and Define please. Thank you.
Vive le Quebecois ...
I want those smelly frogs to stop messing with our country. Nothing good has come out of France.
Ummm ... I've RUN those locomotives. The plate on it says GP-32. MIGHT have been SD-32 but I swear it was a GP. And yes, plenty of 38's around here as well. They don't have quite as much BONDO. (grin) Maybe it was a gag, but I doubt it. Special order perhaps? And there's DOZENS of them in the Kenwood yard alone, merrily banging cars. Sure there's CP varnish there too. Hell, they even repainted the D&H logos on bridges around these parts.
And for what it's worth the D&H was dead under Guilford ... it's doing MUCH better now. CP has kept that promise around here at least. CP even makes sure the shiny new subway cars get from here to you down yonder. Mellon Bank owns Guilford Transportation (route of the oily G) which now only operates the Springfield Terminal RR in MA ... assuming they have any motive power left.
I really can't stand CP/CN because they always promice to keep the local flavour, but then they always go back on their word. The historic Illinios Central name and look will soo disappear and I'll bet WC will fade even faster.
Well heck, I'd say it's a lot more important for a railroad to be run as an efficient profitable buisness enterprise than for it to keep some (probably almost impossible to define) "local flavor."
Then they souldn't lie about it to begin with. They just want to grease the wheels to get the merger approved, then they go back on their word. Maybe if they had been honest their takeovers would have been blocked.
one, maybe you should ask some Canadians how they feel about US domination,
two, ask the -------, Chrysler guys how its going. Ads long as the corporations have more power than the citizenry, they will operate to make profit first second third et sequitur ad infinitum.
I prefer to blame Canada. Stupid utopian country...think they're better then us. ::mumblegrumble::
You've been watching too much South Park JM.
>>Stupid utopian country<<
invalid concept, please rethink. they do a better job on average for the citizenry--by me the primary excuse for gov't
I looked thru the articles, and down a few an article mentioned the agreement between MTA and Bombardier will have
F U L L W I D T H C A B S..
So now where does the engineer bail out to?
Its the 15th article .
avid
He'll just use the door into the passenger compartment just like SEPTA and NJT engineers. I hope they aren't planning to eliminate passing through.
I imagine that one reason for the full width cab is that (eventually) the MTA plans to convert to using full fare control platforms on the LIRR and MetroNorth(swipe card to enter and to leave like in the DC Metro) and one person train operation. No conductors collecting fares = no reason to allow passengers to pass between cars.
Such a system would presumably be not only a cost-saver but a response to failure to collect fares on some trains, esp. during rush hour/...
I can't speak for LIRR, but this rarely happens on MNRR. The conductors are extremely diligent, and only fail to collect fares in the event of major delays or breakdowns when the trains are packed like sardines (like subways!). Also, 95% of rush hour travelers use monthly passes.
Failure to collect fares happens fairly often on the LIRR. Only when the train is overcrowded? Oh! How often does THAT happen? OY!
;vD Andrew
No reason to allow passengers to pass between cars.
I can't speak about the LIRR but on MNRR, they will always have to allow passthroughs. There are stations where all cars do not open because of platform lengths. You must allow them to get to the proper cars to get off.
Also OPTO will be very hard with ADA and wheelchair assistance unless you force all of them into the first or second car.
Another potential delaying factor are stuck doors. If the engineer has to keep running down the platform for every stuck door, you could be looking at significant delays.
---"I can't speak about the LIRR but on MNRR, they will always have to allow passthroughs. There are
stations where all cars do not open because of platform lengths. You must allow them to get to the
proper cars to get off. "---
Same thing on the LIRR.
:-) Andrew
I believe that the FRA requires at least 2 crew members on a train (ie Engineer and Conductor or Engineer and Fireman). It is the conductor's responsibility to handle the timetable. You'll never see full fare control on the LIAR or MNRR because you'd have to seal off the RoW with a fence. The reality of grade crossings and hundreds of miles of perimeter would make this extremely expensive.
Here in Boston, the MBTA Commuter Rail is operated under contract by Amtrak. An Amtrak conductor told me that they are required (by contract) to have a minimum of three crew members per train: an engineer, a conductor, and an assistant conductor (brakeman). C/Rs and A/Cs may handle a maximum of three open passenger cars each. In reality, most trains have one C/R or A/C for each two open cars.
Well that is an MTBA requirement to ensure that the customers get a descent level of service and Amtrak dosen't try to save money. It was nothing to do w/ federal regulations.
LIRR is the same way. Only exception being if it is a light train, a C/R is not required.
Do the MBTA subways still have 3 men on a train. I remember being there in the 70's and even 4 car trains had a motorman and two trainmen. Being a Noo Yawkah at the time I was surprised by the abundance of personnel on trains.
Here's the crewing info for the MBTA:
Red Line: One operator and one guard (conductor).
Orange Line: One operator and one guard (conductor).
Blue Line: OPTO
Green Line: One operator per car (two- and three-car trains of LRVs; front car operator runs the train, but trailer car operators operate the doors, collect fares [on the surface, inbound only], and are prepared to hit the Big Red Button [emergency stop] if some nut tries to cross between cars or commit some other foolish act).
Before they got the M-1's in the late 60's all of the MU's on the LIRR had full length cabs. (I'm not sure about the MP-41's though)
Just an idea:
How about the NYCT renovating the old 18th Street station on the east side IRT to its original glory in time for the 2004 celebration? It could function as an adjunct to the Transit Museum, with a glass wall or something separating the platform from the working 6 local track. That would be a great tribute to the 100 year old subway, and there would be no alleged security problems, like at City Hall. And to save money, the NYCT could simply renovate one side (the downtown side, preferably, as its in better shape) and leave the other side abandoned.
No?
How about the NYCT renovating the old 18th Street station on the east side IRT to its original glory in time for the 2004 celebration? It could function as an adjunct to the Transit Museum, with a glass
wall or something separating the platform from the working 6 local track. That would be a great tribute to the 100 year old subway, and there would be no alleged security problems, like at City Hall. And to save money, the NYCT could simply renovate one side (the downtown side, preferably, as its in better shape) and leave the other side abandoned.
That is one of the ideas listed on Dave P.'s "Centennial Letter" thread.
Hey! You know that Sbarro's restaurant on Seventh Avenue and 33rd Street in Manhattan, the one that had a downstairs window with a great view of the Subway? Well, I was there today, and I noticed that there is a wall over that window! Apparently, the MTA doesn't like the fact that we had such a good view from a restaurant, and they put a wall up there to block it and ruin our fun! I spoke to some people who work in the restaurant, and they are none to pleased about this, either.
- Lyle Goldman
They are in the process of putting an ADA elevator there.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wasn't the window right about at the
conductor's position??
I've always figured that window was a great advertisement for Sbarros. Everyone on the uptown local can see it plainly.
:-) Andrew
just have to hang out at K-mart at Astor Place.
Does the K-mart offer a view of the subway?...I'm in Virginia so I'm out of the subway loop big time
yes from the lower level, to the downtown platform
Temporary or permanent?
Who knows!
It is permanent.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, its not too common to hear the words big dig and good news in the same sentence, but today (Tues.) is an exception. The largest underground tunnel, which will eventually be an underground chunk of I-90 was finished being drilled a little before 5:30 PM today. The actual Tunnel is scheduled to open in 2003, while the central artery bridge will open in 2004....if nothing else gets delayed (which is unlikely). -Nick
I'll say this. Massachusettes is one of the few states north of the Mason-Dixon line and east of the Mississippi where the federal government spends more than the IRS takes out. And this is solely the result of the Big Dig. As a Keynesian stimulus -- ie. it doesn't matter if they are digging holes and filling them in as long as they spend the money -- the BD has been great for Mass. and bad for everyone else.
But at least everyone else gets a cautionary tale. Whenever the Gowanus Tunnel comes up, the words Big Dig are inevitably thrown out.
I wonder how long, prior to the Big Dig, since the last time Massachusetts drew more from the feds than it paid in. I hope they find more use for the Big Dig than for refilled holes. Dare I ask what you see as the moral of this "cautionary tale"?