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Today at around 5:45 P.M., I was at the 34rd Street station on the 6th Avenue Line, when a D Train arrived on the local track! I got on it, and it stopped at both 23rd and 14th Streets! Fortunately, it proceeded along its regular route after that. However, when I was at West 4th Street, I smelled smoke. What happened to cause all this?
- Lyle Goldman
Perhaps a smoke condition on the express tracks between 34st and W4st. I was thinking a delay in F service but if that were the case, the D would've ran via the F to Kings Hwy and discharged passengers. While I'm on the subject, when the D or Q is rerouted over the F, they discharge at Kings Hwy so that they can go through Coney Island yard in order to get back on the Brighton.
Trouble in the dash! Hope nobody got stuck down there!
> Perhaps a smoke condition on the express tracks between 34st and W4st.
I don't think so. I saw a B train that apparently did go on the express tracks.
> when the D or Q is rerouted over the F, they discharge at Kings Hwy
> so that they can go through Coney Island yard in order to get back
> on the Brighton.
Why do they do that? Wouldn't it be faster just to do a few track moves near
Coney Island Station?
- Lyle Goldman
>>>Why do they do that? Wouldn't it be faster just to do a few track moves near Coney Island Station?<<<
Doing this would block service on the B & N lines. They would also create a risk of totally blocking B/N service in the event of a problem.
And no, it would not be faster.
Today (Sunday) I saw a Queens bound E running on the 6th ave local at 42nd street. And there seemed to be bunching (one train after another) N/B on the 6th ave exp. Someone get stuck in the dash!?
This was all around 11:45am.
> I saw a Queens bound E running on the 6th ave local at 42nd street.
You think that's crazy? A few months ago, I saw a C train on the Brighton Line! It was going northbound somewhere near Newkirk Avenue or Church Avenue. Does anyone have any idea what a C train would be doing there?
- Lyle Goldman
You would have expected that sort of thing 33 years ago when the Chrystie St. connection opened.
Hey, Dave Pirmann, did you recently update the subway line descriptions on nycsubway.org? Some details appear to be missing, but there is nothing about that on the "What's New" page.
- Lyle Goldman
What details appear to be missing?
Minor updates to pages don't get into what's new, but if you look at the pages by date you'll see every little update.
I remember watching one of those "unsolved mystery" shows where they pay $ to anyone with an answer. Anyway there was a derailment of an Amtrak train in the southwest a few years ago, that was found to be a sabatoge. They turned the rail inward, but somehow knew to keep signal wires intact, "fooling" the signal that the track ahead was OK. They said the incident was similar to a sabatoge years ago, and that the people who did the recent one were former RR employees and knew how the tracks and signals worked, and could have posessed a copy of a railroad publication, with an article on the earlier derailment.
So if Amtrak has a system to detect broken rails, why not NYCTA and LIRR, and MNRR?
On the program they said it was some kind of wire that detected track movement.
NYCS, LIAR and Met N all have a system to detect broken rails, its called a track circut. If any rail completely breaks it will interrupt the track circut and set the appropiate signals to stop. On MNRR and the LIAR cab signals are in effect and the engineer will get a restricting even in he is in the same block when the rail breaks. All the Arizona sabotuers did was bridge the break w/ a wire (like the kind you see at rail joints, I call them bizitz-thinggies). It is so easy to sabotauge a railroad and not get caught I'm surprised that more people don't do it.
Not necessarily. There are as you know two running rails. One is a signal rail and the other is the negative return rail. If the negative return rail breaks, it will not create a track circuit and all the signals will still operate normally. The condition that you mentioned only takes effect if the signal rail is the one that is broken.
I do not believe so. I know that some transit systems (like the MFL) use only one rail and the other is simply left un insulated, however all railroad block junctions have both rail joints insulatd. I think that both rails are used in the signal process and I am use that Cab Signal Systems depend on both rails. It might be that one rail is like at +12 and the other is at -12 or something.
The process that I was speaking of only pertains to the NYCTA.
It's scary. Someone could place a big object on the straightaway on the main line in Nassau and derail a train.
Maybe trains should have some kind of radar to detect trouble ahead.
Also on the Oyster Bay line, there is lots of easy track access, it seems migrants walk the tracks all the time, and not get spotted.
A sabotuer could easily get in there as well.
The Oyster Bay line is so slow the LE can probably see if a leaf has fallen on the rail.
The LIRR main line near former Rego Park station is frequently visited by local youths who have nothing better to do (they enter via the old Rockaway line). They throw rocks and spikes at the rails (incl. the third) and at each other from opposite sides of the tracks. One time, they thought it would be fun to see what would happen if they lined up all the spikes on top of the rails of one of the center tracks. They fled when a train approached, fortunately on a different track. I had been watching (this is a good photo spot) and was able to remove them before anything bad could happen (would anything have happened?).
R142's numbered 6346-6350 were just delivered by CP Rail to NY&A Fresh Pond. Exactly 3:30am again. If anything CP Rail seems to always been on time :)
Heads up everyone. I won't be able to make it to Junius today.
Shawn.
I saw the same loco and R12/14 rider car that took 6416-6420 to the Bronx at Linden shops this evening(6:30pm). But 6346-6350 were not in visible sight.
Train#1929Mike
Can you read "Click Once?" I guess WebTV isn't very clear on showing that it is in the process of retrieving a page.
What are you talking about? On my message board, the message appears once. Please email me and elaborate.
3TM
pLeAsE dOn'T kNoCk WeBtV... sOmE oF SuBtAlK's FiNeSt MiNdS aRe WeBtVeRs
LOL....or should that be LoL?
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
I would have stopped the presses. Heypaul actually used his shift key.:-)
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
PS ___ NIAGRA FALLS
....sloowwwly I turn.....
was that andee who said:
NiAgArA<FALLS
Ouch....i'm blind!!!
I love it. Say, Paul, can you make it go any faster?:-)
have you got your seat belts on?
i hope this doesn't blow the internet connection
did you say
FASTER?
TILT!!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!! ROTFLMAO
It's almost as if I'm standing at 81st St. with a northbound A train thundering past in a blaze of teal and white with a deafening roar. Ten cars in about 6 seconds or less.
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
sarge... i took the test and failed it horribly... i hardly know bud and lou's full length movies... i was remanded to watching the 3 stooges...
...step by step...inch by inch....millimiter by millimeter...(insert name here)'s penis by (insert name here)'s penis...
I kinda miss the Show.
-Hank
Known bug that doesn't only occur with WebTV. If you look, you'll see that every post has the EXACT same date/time, and they also get marked as followed links, even if you don't follow them. Pigs explained the bug a while back when someone got on Salaam's case without first looking at the time stamps.
-Hank
Spare us the insults. Both myself and Train Dude use WebTV. His post only appears once on my list. You're encountering a bug in the system which was elaborated on a while ago. It's completely not SubBus's fault. Subtalk is designed to prevent the repeated postings of identical messages.
Keep the Webtv bashing where it belongs, which is usenet.
StAy CoOl DuDeS, iM oUtTa HeRe
I saw the same loco and R12/14 rider car that took 6416-6420 to the Bronx at Linden shops this evening(6:30pm). But 6346-6350 were not in visible sight.
Train#1929Mike
Can you read "Click Once?" I guess WebTV isn't very clear on showing that it is in the process of retrieving a page.
What are you talking about? On my message board, the message appears once. Please email me and elaborate.
3TM
pLeAsE dOn'T kNoCk WeBtV... sOmE oF SuBtAlK's FiNeSt MiNdS aRe WeBtVeRs
LOL....or should that be LoL?
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
I would have stopped the presses. Heypaul actually used his shift key.:-)
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
PS ___ NIAGRA FALLS
....sloowwwly I turn.....
was that andee who said:
NiAgArA<FALLS
Ouch....i'm blind!!!
I love it. Say, Paul, can you make it go any faster?:-)
have you got your seat belts on?
i hope this doesn't blow the internet connection
did you say
FASTER?
TILT!!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!! ROTFLMAO
It's almost as if I'm standing at 81st St. with a northbound A train thundering past in a blaze of teal and white with a deafening roar. Ten cars in about 6 seconds or less.
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
sarge... i took the test and failed it horribly... i hardly know bud and lou's full length movies... i was remanded to watching the 3 stooges...
...step by step...inch by inch....millimiter by millimeter...(insert name here)'s penis by (insert name here)'s penis...
I kinda miss the Show.
-Hank
Known bug that doesn't only occur with WebTV. If you look, you'll see that every post has the EXACT same date/time, and they also get marked as followed links, even if you don't follow them. Pigs explained the bug a while back when someone got on Salaam's case without first looking at the time stamps.
-Hank
Spare us the insults. Both myself and Train Dude use WebTV. His post only appears once on my list. You're encountering a bug in the system which was elaborated on a while ago. It's completely not SubBus's fault. Subtalk is designed to prevent the repeated postings of identical messages.
Keep the Webtv bashing where it belongs, which is usenet.
StAy CoOl DuDeS, iM oUtTa HeRe
I saw the same loco and R12/14 rider car that took 6416-6420 to the Bronx at Linden shops this evening(6:30pm). But 6346-6350 were not in visible sight.
Train#1929Mike
Can you read "Click Once?" I guess WebTV isn't very clear on showing that it is in the process of retrieving a page.
What are you talking about? On my message board, the message appears once. Please email me and elaborate.
3TM
pLeAsE dOn'T kNoCk WeBtV... sOmE oF SuBtAlK's FiNeSt MiNdS aRe WeBtVeRs
LOL....or should that be LoL?
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
I would have stopped the presses. Heypaul actually used his shift key.:-)
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
PS ___ NIAGRA FALLS
....sloowwwly I turn.....
was that andee who said:
NiAgArA<FALLS
Ouch....i'm blind!!!
I love it. Say, Paul, can you make it go any faster?:-)
have you got your seat belts on?
i hope this doesn't blow the internet connection
did you say
FASTER?
TILT!!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!! ROTFLMAO
It's almost as if I'm standing at 81st St. with a northbound A train thundering past in a blaze of teal and white with a deafening roar. Ten cars in about 6 seconds or less.
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
sarge... i took the test and failed it horribly... i hardly know bud and lou's full length movies... i was remanded to watching the 3 stooges...
...step by step...inch by inch....millimiter by millimeter...(insert name here)'s penis by (insert name here)'s penis...
I kinda miss the Show.
-Hank
Known bug that doesn't only occur with WebTV. If you look, you'll see that every post has the EXACT same date/time, and they also get marked as followed links, even if you don't follow them. Pigs explained the bug a while back when someone got on Salaam's case without first looking at the time stamps.
-Hank
Spare us the insults. Both myself and Train Dude use WebTV. His post only appears once on my list. You're encountering a bug in the system which was elaborated on a while ago. It's completely not SubBus's fault. Subtalk is designed to prevent the repeated postings of identical messages.
Keep the Webtv bashing where it belongs, which is usenet.
StAy CoOl DuDeS, iM oUtTa HeRe
I saw the same loco and R12/14 rider car that took 6416-6420 to the Bronx at Linden shops this evening(6:30pm). But 6346-6350 were not in visible sight.
Train#1929Mike
Can you read "Click Once?" I guess WebTV isn't very clear on showing that it is in the process of retrieving a page.
What are you talking about? On my message board, the message appears once. Please email me and elaborate.
3TM
pLeAsE dOn'T kNoCk WeBtV... sOmE oF SuBtAlK's FiNeSt MiNdS aRe WeBtVeRs
LOL....or should that be LoL?
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
I would have stopped the presses. Heypaul actually used his shift key.:-)
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
PS ___ NIAGRA FALLS
....sloowwwly I turn.....
was that andee who said:
NiAgArA<FALLS
Ouch....i'm blind!!!
I love it. Say, Paul, can you make it go any faster?:-)
have you got your seat belts on?
i hope this doesn't blow the internet connection
did you say
FASTER?
TILT!!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!! ROTFLMAO
It's almost as if I'm standing at 81st St. with a northbound A train thundering past in a blaze of teal and white with a deafening roar. Ten cars in about 6 seconds or less.
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
sarge... i took the test and failed it horribly... i hardly know bud and lou's full length movies... i was remanded to watching the 3 stooges...
...step by step...inch by inch....millimiter by millimeter...(insert name here)'s penis by (insert name here)'s penis...
I kinda miss the Show.
-Hank
Known bug that doesn't only occur with WebTV. If you look, you'll see that every post has the EXACT same date/time, and they also get marked as followed links, even if you don't follow them. Pigs explained the bug a while back when someone got on Salaam's case without first looking at the time stamps.
-Hank
Spare us the insults. Both myself and Train Dude use WebTV. His post only appears once on my list. You're encountering a bug in the system which was elaborated on a while ago. It's completely not SubBus's fault. Subtalk is designed to prevent the repeated postings of identical messages.
Keep the Webtv bashing where it belongs, which is usenet.
StAy CoOl DuDeS, iM oUtTa HeRe
I saw the same loco and R12/14 rider car that took 6416-6420 to the Bronx at Linden shops this evening(6:30pm). But 6346-6350 were not in visible sight.
Train#1929Mike
Can you read "Click Once?" I guess WebTV isn't very clear on showing that it is in the process of retrieving a page.
What are you talking about? On my message board, the message appears once. Please email me and elaborate.
3TM
pLeAsE dOn'T kNoCk WeBtV... sOmE oF SuBtAlK's FiNeSt MiNdS aRe WeBtVeRs
LOL....or should that be LoL?
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
I would have stopped the presses. Heypaul actually used his shift key.:-)
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
PS ___ NIAGRA FALLS
....sloowwwly I turn.....
was that andee who said:
NiAgArA<FALLS
Ouch....i'm blind!!!
I love it. Say, Paul, can you make it go any faster?:-)
have you got your seat belts on?
i hope this doesn't blow the internet connection
did you say
FASTER?
TILT!!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!! ROTFLMAO
It's almost as if I'm standing at 81st St. with a northbound A train thundering past in a blaze of teal and white with a deafening roar. Ten cars in about 6 seconds or less.
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
sarge... i took the test and failed it horribly... i hardly know bud and lou's full length movies... i was remanded to watching the 3 stooges...
...step by step...inch by inch....millimiter by millimeter...(insert name here)'s penis by (insert name here)'s penis...
I kinda miss the Show.
-Hank
Known bug that doesn't only occur with WebTV. If you look, you'll see that every post has the EXACT same date/time, and they also get marked as followed links, even if you don't follow them. Pigs explained the bug a while back when someone got on Salaam's case without first looking at the time stamps.
-Hank
Spare us the insults. Both myself and Train Dude use WebTV. His post only appears once on my list. You're encountering a bug in the system which was elaborated on a while ago. It's completely not SubBus's fault. Subtalk is designed to prevent the repeated postings of identical messages.
Keep the Webtv bashing where it belongs, which is usenet.
StAy CoOl DuDeS, iM oUtTa HeRe
I saw the same loco and R12/14 rider car that took 6416-6420 to the Bronx at Linden shops this evening(6:30pm). But 6346-6350 were not in visible sight.
Train#1929Mike
Can you read "Click Once?" I guess WebTV isn't very clear on showing that it is in the process of retrieving a page.
What are you talking about? On my message board, the message appears once. Please email me and elaborate.
3TM
pLeAsE dOn'T kNoCk WeBtV... sOmE oF SuBtAlK's FiNeSt MiNdS aRe WeBtVeRs
LOL....or should that be LoL?
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
I would have stopped the presses. Heypaul actually used his shift key.:-)
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
PS ___ NIAGRA FALLS
....sloowwwly I turn.....
was that andee who said:
NiAgArA<FALLS
Ouch....i'm blind!!!
I love it. Say, Paul, can you make it go any faster?:-)
have you got your seat belts on?
i hope this doesn't blow the internet connection
did you say
FASTER?
TILT!!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!! ROTFLMAO
It's almost as if I'm standing at 81st St. with a northbound A train thundering past in a blaze of teal and white with a deafening roar. Ten cars in about 6 seconds or less.
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
sarge... i took the test and failed it horribly... i hardly know bud and lou's full length movies... i was remanded to watching the 3 stooges...
...step by step...inch by inch....millimiter by millimeter...(insert name here)'s penis by (insert name here)'s penis...
I kinda miss the Show.
-Hank
Known bug that doesn't only occur with WebTV. If you look, you'll see that every post has the EXACT same date/time, and they also get marked as followed links, even if you don't follow them. Pigs explained the bug a while back when someone got on Salaam's case without first looking at the time stamps.
-Hank
Spare us the insults. Both myself and Train Dude use WebTV. His post only appears once on my list. You're encountering a bug in the system which was elaborated on a while ago. It's completely not SubBus's fault. Subtalk is designed to prevent the repeated postings of identical messages.
Keep the Webtv bashing where it belongs, which is usenet.
StAy CoOl DuDeS, iM oUtTa HeRe
Speaking of R-142 deliveries, when will the next new R-142 train start revenue service?
- Lyle Goldman
Article on 63 tunnel stuff
V TRAIN
Peace,
ANDEE
I wonder what kind of equipment will be used on the train.
71-Continental Avenue
Queens
2 Avenue
Manhattan
This is a good point. What will the equipment changes be even for the Manhattan Bridge flop??
Not all the R68 D's are going to be needed 205th St to 24th St your cutting an hour off their run and there is no way in heck that the Slants can cover Brighton local service 24/7 on a 6-8 minute headway (they don't run less than 10 now).
Maybe someone can Follo up with an answer ;-)
From what I've heard, all the 68's are coming out of Concourse to be replaced by 60 ft cars (The is supposed to become 8 cars). As for the cars used for the , I'm not sure.
Also, as I write, channel 7 is getting ready to report this story.
BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Sorry but that simply is incorrect. The D will remain 8 Car R-68s (14 trains). The B will also be 8-Car R-68s (10 trains).
That's good news. I was worried for a minute. While they may have their downside, I have grown quite fond of the R-68/68As.
Peace,
ANDEE
Love that buzzer!:-)
And who's getting the R68's?
Coney Island? If so then the Q will be Hippos (a nightmere), and the Slants go to the B & D?
I believe both Q lines would be R68's, with the W retaining the R68A's. Better enjoy those slants on the Brighton while you still can.
OOoooohNooooo!!!!!
My feelings exactly.
I suggest that you back up one message and read my post on this subject. It is fact as of 12/01/00 5 PM. As for the Q express, the Q local & the B - you'll just have to wait and see.............
Rim shot!!
I'd assume R32's and R46 cars which are generally assigned to the Jamaica Yard. Can they handle this capacity, even if the G line's cars are transferred to the CI yard?
The August plan has the Q on broadway I guess.
from the article:
"Northern terminal for G trains would be Court Square in Long Island City. Transfers available there to local V and R trains. Access to No. 7 trains possible by walking from Court Square station to nearby depot at 45th Road/Court House Square."
Transfers @ Court Square should be V & E.
Does anyone know the length of the walk to transfer from the G to the E/F. I remember it being quite long, but at the time I was running late, so its probably distorted in my memory.
And would that be a _free_ tranfser to the 7 ?
Can't tell you in feet, but it is a long transfer. You go up the stairs at the east end of the E/F platform @ 23rd/Ely, make a right, walk down a looooooooong corridor past fare control at Citicorp's One Court Sq. building, then down to the 'G' platforms. In fact, the Citi tower's altering the fare control and exits was the reason the formerly nonexistant transfer came into being. The transfer is longer than, say, the one betw. the '6' and the 'E/F' at Lex/51st, but the corridor is much wider and you're not crossing foot traffic and going up and down so many stairs. Frankly, if I'm a 'G' rider, I'm a little p.o.'d though, cause it is quite a hike.
Just thought of a good reference: The corridor connecting the 'E/F' to the 'G' at Court Square can't be much shorter than the one connecting the 'A/C/E' to the IRT and BMT at 42nd Street. Also, there's currently no free transfer to the 'G' from the '7' at 45 Rd.
I think they're considering making a free transfer connection, and I'm surprised this didn't get mentioned.
If they insist on cutting the back at Court Sq., then the people in Greenpoint should demand more B61 service, and this now follows the route all the way to Queens Plaza for an easier connection to Queens Blvd.
A little off topic but... I think they're should to build a connection from Lorimer on the J line to Broadway on the G line. I had invisioned this connection for a while. It wouldn't be that long of a walkway. It's just the matter of digging it up :)
Shawn.
And I'm sure the schedules will not reflect the time needed to walk the transfer. Late night connections are going to be ugly.
We've been speculating about the service pattern for two years, and no one is predicted what they are doing. Merge a local onto the express tracks at Queens Plaza, while running an express through 63rd? Huh?
I guess they think the delays that will result from the switching are offset by the need to attract people to the V, by offering the transfer to 51st Street. Should have just had local riders wait for the R, and transfer at 51st Street.
Better yet, build the Second Avenue Subway and run two trains through 63rd St, one of which turns down Second Avenue, as originally intended.
Could be merging problems at 47-50, where F trains from 63rd street and V trains from 53rd, merge onto the local track.
In the Daily News, the V will be using 53rd street, not 63rd street.
I thought it would make more sense to put the V through 63rd. Having only one line in the 63rd street tunnel doesn't seem to make sense. Doesn't 63rd street have a higher capacity than 53rd?
Also, by running N and W trains to Astoria, does give Queens residents better service, but can 60th street tunnel handle three lines (N,R,and W).
I assume the TA will keep N and R in the Montague tunnel and lower Manhattan route, since service cannot be reduced to lower Manhattan by running just an R train through there.
I guess Q and W will go across the H tracks.
I wonder if the W will bypass Dekalb? Hopefully the N line will get some rush hour service across the bridge though.
It is about 250 yards, give or take a few ells.
wayne
I'd love to see someone who knows about rail topics to do these articles. The last new route was NOT the Q, as the articles states was. It was the Z, born on 12-12-88. Not counting the double letter eliminations of 1985, what was the last completely new route before then? The KK, born on 7-1-68?
The Times article made Saturday's paper.
from the article:
"To get to work, Ms. Pean takes the F train at 179th Street and changes at Union Turnpike for the E train to the World Trade Center. But often the trains are so crowded she cannot get on, or she misses her connection and waits "
This proves that an average commueter is not very smart. She would have much better chance (and faster commute) if she would change at W4th Street + A C & E to pick from.
Arti
These are the same people who can't cope with the concept of a split local/express or who try to get on the Culver shuttle. They have no idea what the maps in stations and cars are for, either.
Many years ago, a friend of mine was a recruiter for a temp agency in midtown. Part of their hiring test was requiring basic familiarity with the subways in Manhattan, so they wouldn't look like idiots sending out someone who couldn't figure out where places like Rock Ctr or WTC were. Unfortunately, they had to drop the transit awareness (along with the basic competency tests) in the 1980s because some dimwit claimed they were "discriminatory" against minorities. Their business declined rapidly not long after because they'd send out people who got completely lost, and if they did show up, couldn't even read. Nothing like "diversity".
Maybe she'd prefer to wait a bit longer than to climb two flights at W4.
I'd say climbing two flights is easyer than riding a packed train from Union Tpke.
Arti
i've been pretty bored with the message board lately, especially with some people's nasty comments about the new r142's... i decided to go back and study the archives and see if i could close out any open cases.. i found this message from lou...this question is over 2 1/2 years old... has there been any progress at getting any answer?...
www.nycsubway.org > SubTalk Archives > Stange Memo to Q Drivers? (1131)
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Stange Memo to Q Drivers?
Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Wed Mar 11 20:15:18 1998
This morning at 47-50 Rock it seemed a supervisor (well he wasn't in a uniform with radio and clipboard) was handing out papers to only Q train operators. He even made them SIGN for them (yup print and sign name).
Isn't this a strange way to hand out information?? How is every Q Train Operator going to get one? Way not do this at the terminal now one stop away? The tower also had more people in it than usual (one person most of the time). There was a SLIGHT delay to customers, the train was closed up way before the train operator had signed for his handout.
I saw the handouts to two Q trains before my F(orever) showed up.
Hey I remember that, never got an answer...
The tower now is on automatic ("KNOW YOUR LINEUP, WHAT YOU PUNCH IS WHAT YOU GET") but there is 9 times out of 10 a supervisor there each morning.
I love that sign. If they had just had more space they could have continued "Don't some crying to us if you screw this up!"
HeyPaul or anyone else for this matter, do you think you can write a letter on these delays, specifically noting the observations of the delays, duration and the questioning of the reasoning behind it. I have a complaint against various supervisors against this practice, as it distracts the employees from the safety factors of operations, the double-checking of the signals and previous signalling, and it keeps the train OFF SCHEDULE. Forward the letters to the respective line supterintendants. Tell them you feel you should get your $1.50 worth with UNHINDERED, expedited movement of train service, that teaching belongs in the classroom. No pun intended HeyPaul.
LOL, very original.
Hi,
Do you recall that there was (is?) a piece of art somewhere in the subway tunnel system that is made of many sections. It is designed to be viewed from the moving train so that as the sections move by the viewer's window, they form a kind of animation. It's just like the way frames of film passing through a movie projector create the illusion of motion.
It's been some 30 years since I saw it, may be long gone. If it still exists, please tell me where, which train, etc.
Thanks,
Mike B
digiboy@erols.com
That was they old Myrtle Ave Station, you saw it leaving Dekalb Ave when going over the Manhattan Bridge. The station is still there >G< but the display fell into disrepair and was never upkept.
It was called MassTransiscope and, while still there, it no longer works.
--Mark
According to news reports on News 12 and in Newsday, a man bought two east bound tickets at the Syosset station yesterday. He ran around the downed gates in an attempt to catch the eastbound train before it left the station.. He didn't look to his left and was killed by a w/b train.
His teenage son saw the whole thing. Nice memory for the kid to have to live with.
Here's the link.
To paraphrase, No one ever went broke betting on the stupidity of the public!. Just another bit of proof.
Sorry his teenage son had to witness this incident. There seems to be a huge lack of common sense nowadays. People don't think or rationalize before they do things. We hear this all the time especially when someone drives around downed crossing gates or squeezes in between two passenger cars as their train leaves the station. How long does it take to stop and think that you may be gambling your life away, one second ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, it happened again. Tonight a friend called me at 5:30 looking for a ride. Her train was stuck in Farmingdale due to another incident. It seems that a Diesel traveling west struck a car at Straight Path (Wyandanch). We went by the scene at about 6:30 PM. The vehicle was flattened beyond belief. No official word as yet but I can't imagine anyone surviving that incident. The diesel (running light) must have been traveling close to MAS at the time of impact.
I saw it on the news. It looked like the final resting place was by the Wyandanch station since cars parked head in were visible. I live in Deer Park. I heard trains passing by approximately 7:30.
It looked like the final resting place was by the Wyandanch station
And the driver's final resting place is by the Pinelawn station.
It was only through sheer dumb luck that I was saved from a long delay. I had taken the train from Medford today. Coming home, I was planning to take the 5:22 to Ronkonkoma, connecting to Medford. I got to Penn about 5:15 and decided to make a quick visit to the men's room (not that anyone could imagine anything but a quick visit to that hell-hole!) As I passed the police desk right by the entrance to the waiting areas and restrooms, I heard the police radio say something about a car-train collision at Wyandanch. I immediately inquired and was told that there probably would be major delays. So I called my wife, asked her to pick me up at Patchogue, and got on the 5:36 to Babylon/Patchogue. I didn't hear a general P.A. announcement of the incident until almost 5:35.
Had it not been for the detour to the men's room, I would have walked right onto the 5:22 and gotten stuck in Hicksville or Farmingdale for a couple of hours.
I witnessed a close call at the Shrewsbury Avenue crossing in Red Bank on Friday afternoon myself. I was the second vehicle in line at the crossing, headed south; the gates were down (full gates, including the sidewalk on the east side of the street) because of an east/northbound train stopped at the Red Bank station. Just as that train began crossing, a motorcyclist pulled up to the right (west side) of the vehicle in front of me and stopped. The gates did not come up as they usually do after the train clears the crossing, so the motorcyclist proceeded around the gates and lights on the grassy shoulder and across the tracks, narrowly avoiding being struck by a west/southbound train headed for the Red Bank station.
Where's a cop when you need one?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In my motorcycle club, we refer to people who do stupid things like that or even ride between lanes of traffic. We refer to them as Future Organ Donors".
That sounds like what we called them when we got them in the Emergency Room. Usually they were too mangled to be of any use to anybody.
Wnybody who rides a motorcycle is probably a future organ donor. That's why they call them donor-mobiles. Did you know that there is a statistical trend b/t increased motorcycle helmet use and decreased organ availibility? I say if some big cycle guy dosen't want to wear a helmet I say more power to him. I could save 5 people's lives.
Did you know that there is a statistical trend b/t increased motorcycle helmet use and decreased organ availibility?
Yes. That's because even a minor accident will kill you if you're not wearing a helmet, because your head will be mush or your neck will be broken even if the rest of you isn't too badly damaged. With a helmet it's the destruction of the rest of you that kills you.
I haven't ridden since 1976, but I wore my helmet faithfully when I did ride. Fortunately, I never had to find out how effective it was.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I did, on a bicycle. I was knocked down by a passing car, and smacked my head on the curb hard enough to crack the plastic shell on the helmet. Of course, the foam was shattered as it was supposed to.
-Hank
I've been riding since 1966. Ages in my club are late 30s to early 60s and we have a very impressive safety record. That's because we ride sanely and defensively.
"Darwin Award Candidate" would be another good term.
It's amazing how many careless people there are around trains. People stick their arms, hands, even their strollers, in train doors as they are closing. They are in such a rush, that they cannot think rationally. It seems people are loosing common sense, and that can be a deadly mistake, whether running on platforms, holding doors, and crossing when gates are down. There has to be more patrol and stiffer punishment for violators.
Guys, you must understand that there are people out there who have a sign on their forheads which reads "VACANT - THIS SPACE FOR RENT".
Yes, and a few of them post on this board :-)
(So far not in this thread, however.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree with you, but I think the punishment for this guy was pretty stiff. He's a stiff now (HAHAHA).
This and the accident in Wyandanch were real tragedies. To call the victims idiots shows that SOME railfans on this board can be really insensitive and heartless!!!
How would you refer to someone who goes around closed gates and into the path of oncoming traffic? It's just like jaywalking or running a red light, only your survival chance is much lower.
-Hank
Yeah, they are a tragedy all right...for the crews of the trains who had to deal with all the paperwork and reoccuring "visions" of what happened -- and all those who had to endure the delays caused by some stupid ass fool that thought they could save two seconds and beat a train.
Numbskulls.
This whole damned island is full of them.
wayne
Numbskulls.
This whole damned island is full of them.
wayne
In the loby of 101 Hudson St in Jersey City they have a nice size deplay of Loinel trains for the holiday. its at least a 20 x 20 2 track lay-out
One of our vault pullers stoped buy to say hello & we got to talking about MC collecting. He's one of three men who see most of the fleet every night & the "Capture Bin" attached to the farebox that HAS been a good place to find MCs. It seems that folks aren't turning them in in the same rate they used to, plus drivers & cleaner/shifter are also grabbing them. The result is my friend only sees a few now.
I've notice the same decreased quantity when I go out on my lunch hour and walk thru our yard.
Others have reported much less volume of cards in and around the subway stations. AND it's been reported that "Fun Passes" are gettting harder to aqcquire, i.e. the cheepest way to get a new card.
For those that have been doing it for a while this may turn out to be a benifit, i.e. if you have a lot of old cards you'll be able to trade them for cards that folks have had to buy (my friend's oldest card is the Michael J. Fox Spin City one, so he doesn't have any "blue" ones, plus he doesn't have a complete set of Millennial Journeys).
As many of you know I love to TRADE cards & this includes those from other cities (special thanks to my friends in Atlanta, Chicago & San Fran). So, for me the recent trend toward buying & selling may come back to trading /swaping.
If I go to the next show on my birthday (Dec. 9th) I may be pleasently surprised.
Mr t__:^)
Topless Act on the Bus is Arresting.
Funny ... things like this never seem to happen when I'm around (sigh.)
I just posted a long thing on Bustalk about this stunt.
-Hank
Would this bus change the normal fare or the $3 express bus fare?
on G string Diva's on HBO there was a seen of a stripped stripping on an R 32 and dancing on the poles... it had to be really really late but the few men in the car all had smiles on their face
Would this bus change the normal fare or the $3 express bus fare?
Heck, they could charge twenty bucks and the bus would be jammed :-)
Most definately a way to get people to try Mass Transit. :)
-Hank
Miss Subways is coming back in a whole new way :) :)
--Mark
For those interested, here is a different take on the subject,
NAKED WOMEN ON A BUS
Peace,
ANDEE
There are already plenty of smut on the Internet... I'm amazed at the number of postings there on something that can be so easily accessible. I hear Europe and other countries show smut on broadcast TV. In this country we all get so much fuss about naked women on a bus (and still no smut on broadcast TV).
There are already plenty of smut on the Internet... I'm amazed at the number of postings there on something that can be so easily accessible. I hear Europe and other countries show smut on broadcast TV. In this country we all get so much fuss about naked women on a bus (and still no smut on broadcast TV).
I was quite surprised at a large poster ad I saw on an LIRR train this evening. It was for H&M, a clothing-store change, and featured a blonde model wearing extremely skimpy underwear. She was about three square inches of fabric away from being in her birthday suit.
Which do you think stands a better chance of actually being built: Philadelphia's Schuylkill Valley Metro (http://www.svmetro.com), or Manhattan's 2nd Ave. subway?
Phillyguy
When you say Schuylkill Valley Metro you mean commuter rail to Reading via either the NS Harrisburg line or the old PRR RoW I would say the Schuylkill Valley Metro has a much greater chance of sucess.
The Second Avenue Subway has been in the planning stages since WWII. If they were really going to build it, I think they would have already done it.
They found a way to build a 6th Avenue express and finish the Queens IND, didn't they?
As for the SVM, I personally think SEPTA would be much wiser to spend that money on improving old transit/creating new transit in the city than connecting us to the hinterlands, whose residents would probably much rather drive than take the train anyway.
My 2 cents.
Sibernaut's Lair
than connecting us to the hinterlands, whose residents would probably much rather drive than take the train anyway.
Nobody but Nobody enjoys driving on 422 or I-76. Because I-76 is located between a sheer rock clif and a railroad/river there is no room to expand. The Surekill Distressway is only 4 lanes from the Blue Route all the way to City Line. Its a madhouse every single day and the 422/202/Penna Tpk. interchange is no walk in the park either. If residnets along the valley were given a transit alternative they would use it. Furthermore SEPTA needs to extend the Rt. 100 to King of Prussia mall. Transit within the city is perfectly fine. Its a bus based system, but its a very good bus based system (I only know about the route density, not frequency). Sure they could restore some of the trolley lines, but the SVM would probably be best for the region. The next thing they should do is extend the R3 back to West Chester, the R5 out to Parksburg and the other R5 out to Quakertown (maybe even operate express service to Allentown-Bethelhem. Besides Lehigh university and the Eagles Camp Allentown/Bethelhem offers the Lehign Valley international airport. Flights are cheaper and suffer fewer delays. At transit link to centre city could take some of the pressure off of PHL.
Thank you, someone who finally agrees with me. SEPTA does hae a great bus system in the city, and they do run pretty frequently. The R5 discontinued service to Parkesburg because the trains had to go 20 miles into Lancaster County just to turn around, which wasn't really good. Also, I agree with the fact that SEPTA really needs to extend the rt 100 line to King of Prussia mall for many reasons, and I think they are realy planning to do that now. Also, how far away is Quakertown? I mean, the R5 is already over 60 miles long from end to end. Maybe they should use another line, like maybe the R8 or R7 if possible, since they don't run too often at some times. Plus, the SVmetro is very important for the region because of access to the city from Reading places and stuff.
The R5 discontinued service to Parkesburg because the trains had to go 20 miles into Lancaster County just to turn around, which wasn't really good.
All it would take to solve this problem is to hire 2 full time employees. On the Amtrak Harrisburg Line b/t Lancaster and Thorndale includive there are 3 interlockings, CORK, PARK and THORN. Untill 1994 SEPTA went to Parksburg, the station stop is within PARK's western home signal. After Conrail local freight service in the area dried up I heard that PARK tower closed and SEPTA had to run all the way to CORK, making service impossible. However, after visiting the tower and asking some people I hearned that PARK did not close. The interlocking and the tower are still maintained and PARK is open on an "as-needed" basis. The rest of the time it is on automatic operation. All SEPTA needs to do is pay for 2 full time tower operators to man the tower and set up the reversing moves.
For Quakertown operation they would probably have a change to electric at Lansdale or maybe run diesel express all the way to Wayne Jct.
If anybody doubts the SEPTA bus system, pay $5 for a SEPTA route map and see how its covered w/ red bus lines. I think there are over 100 routes.
I agree the SEPTA bus system is quite extensive, but the problem is that they all run in street RoW, so it's slower than driving. Some bus trips within the city take more than an hour over the same distance as a 20 minute train ride (like the 23 to Chestnut Hill). I think the SVM should be built as commuter rail, but favor Street's proposal for a rail link from Center City up the Parkway to the Museum and Zoo; as well as a new subway line on Roosevelt Boulevard for the $1.5 billion.
Why don't they just make the Roosevelt Boulevard line go to the Museum and Zoo? Also, I wonder what kind of trains they are going to use on that line?
Roosevelt Boulevard and the art museum are not exactly in the same part of town, but it is conceivable to have a Roosevelt Subway that doesn't join the Broad Street line, but crosses it going southwest to reach the attractions in the Fairmount Park region. The downside to this would mean the Roosevelt Subway wouldn't have one-seat ride access to Center City, and I think that's a priority of the planners.
Michalovic
A Rossevelt Blvd-Art Museum Line would also be a long distance. Better to have a line running from Center City to Manayunk via the old Reading City Branch (just north of Callowhill St), then up Pennsylvania Avenue, 33rd St, Ridge Avenue and then the R6 line from East Falls to Manayunk. because Roosevelt Blvd is such a long street, it's better to connect the new Roosevelt line into the Broad Street at Erie or Olney.
Speaking of Erie, I had suggested tying the Route 56 streetcar tracks into the Broad St subway as a possible way of having the BSS reach NE Philly without the big expense of tunneling under the Blvd or cutting down trees to build an elevated structure. It wouldn't be the best solution because Torresdale Avenue (the street 56 runs on in the NE) is some distance from Roosevelt Blvd, which is the main street in NE Philly. But it would be a start.
Or how about maybe some light rail lines that run along Torresdale or Frankford, feeding into the Market-Frankford Line? There are certainly a lot of riders on the bus routes on those corridors.
Michalovic
It is my understanding that SEPTA does not have a Capital Plan process for funding the way that MTA has. That is, specific projects, such as the main line commuter rail reconstruction of the 1990's, or the purchase of Adtranz cars for the Market-Frankford line, were paid for by specific appropriations from the state legislature, and this process was more "crisis-driven" than anything else.
Am I wrong? Is there an established, replicable procedure for capital expenditures for SEPTA?
It appears that Harrisburg looks at Philadelphia as a "bottomless money pit" due to its poverty, corruption and ineffectiveness in city govt and racism (eg perceptions in the state capital regarding the large African-American population of Philadelphia).
Anyone out there with some perspectives on this? I would propose that a comprehensive agreement w/Harrisburg be put in place to establish a capital planning process similar to the process which saved the NYC transit system in the 1980's. Is it politically possible?
Or how about moving the Capitol back to Philadelphia? I've lived in Philly for 6 years and I've never been anywhere else in the state, nevermind Harrisburg.
Also, bus service after dark is infrequent in Northeast Philly, at least on some of the routes, and the lack of north-south rail in that area means that there are fewer bus resources for crosstown routes, which could be improved. I'd like to see more frequent service on the buses that run on Cottman Avenue, for example.
Michalovic
The problem with doing north-south rail is that when you get closer to Center City and South Philly the north-south streets get very narrow, too narrow to support subways as we know them in New York. The streetcar tracks of Route 23 are still there, but if buses are getting stuck behind parked cars, what chance do streetcars have of that never happening? You have to be creative.
Maybe extending the Ridge Avenue subway further northewst along Ridge and onto the R6 line from East Falls to Ivy Ridge might work. That would make the Ridge its own line and not just a branch of the BSS, free up space on the BSS express tracks, and make the Ridge Line more attractive to commuters who must use slower busses along Ridge Avenue and other streets.
Actually, by north-south rail I was talking about rail in Northeast Philly, like the proposed Roosevelt subway. But I really like your idea of extending the Ridge Avenue line northwestward to reach Ivy Ridge, Manayunk, etc. I've tossed the idea around myself some. Another idea I've tossed around is a subway underneath the Ben Franklin Parkway that would head in the same general direction.
Michalovic
I don't even think that SEPTA has any deisal engines, though. Also, i agree that there are a lot of routes, and the suburban map cost over 6 dollars, by the way. However, with bus routes, you can easily change them, rather than with rail lines, where you would have to do a lot of construction.
It has 2, 60 and 61. They are used in shop and work service and sometimes trail in the FP-7 excursions.
60 and 61 are Republic Locomotive lemons; what's 2?
It has two [locomotives]:comma: 60 and 61 :period:
Well, if there are only 3, and they are used for shop and work service, they can't really be used for passenger service, since there are not enough, and, well, they are needed for other things. Also, where do they store these engines? Would you find them at the Overbrook Shop Place or where the trains are parked?
To see SEPTA's diesels, take a ride on the R8 Fox Chase or any other regional line that goes through the main commuter yards near the Wayne Junction Station. There is usually one of them lurking around there easily seen from the train.
Michalovic
Thanks; I misunderstood your fuzzy numbers.
You don't understand. SEPTA wants to extend service to Reading, making track improvements to provide 15 minute headways there. Now that sounds just like a waste of money. I bet for that $1.5 billion they could provide 15 minute headways on Regional Rail lines in the city that nead those headways (Chestnut Hill lines, and maybe one other short one), extend the R6 and the Rt. 100 to King of Prussia, running both on 15 minute headways, and still have a couple hundred million left over.
The SVM is a waste of a study. It should be either: a normal commuter rail line running at normal commuter rail headways, going all the way to Reading, or
A PATCO type rail line, completely independant of freight, running at PATCO headways, terminating somewhere a little past Phoenixville, with huge park&rides, that will attempt to divert people off 422 at about the point where the traffic gets bad.
Email mail@dvarp.org to learn about the stupidity of those who conducted the SVM study.
SEPTA needs to provide straight commuter rail with terminals in Reading and Pottsville. Valley trains would travel on the PRR RoW from Norristown, via the concrete viaduct and into suburban station. If the trains pushed on the inbound trip they could use diesel power the whole way. One diesel engine at the tip of track 8 in Suburban Station worn't bother anybody. If people can live through Chicago ::cough gag:: Station they can tolerate a diesel or 2 at Suburban.
I think the DVARP is way too hard with SEPTA. I mean, they are the ones who keep prodding SEPTA for the SVM, and I think they were teh ones that really push SEPTA into the direction of the 15 minute headways. and such.
I think what is needed is really two separate services. One commuter line that goes out to Reading, and a subway or something that goes to Phoenixville or Norristown or someplace not too far outside the city that would provide good service to the art museum, the zoo, and Manayunk.
Michalovic
they will both be built regardless. both will happen. why? because the gov't wants to improve the environment and cut down traffic congestion and give people ease of getting to work or to entertainment spots. as long as they can supply the money to build them, then there will be no stopping them from being built. of course at first when built no one will ride it but when the word of convenience gets around, i bet you it will be heavily used.
It happened about 20 minutes ago west of Wyandanch. Eyewitness news says the car was trying to cross Straight Path and was hit by the train. The final resting place of the car looks to be a few feet west of the station since the parking lot is visible. The bilevel had no passengers on board.
The front car of that Bi-level has had some damage. Shame to see a new train get hit, and a grade crossing and stupidity claim another life.
Channel 5 said that the person in the car made it out in time. Poor schmuck now has to take the bus. GOOD.
It happened about 20 minutes ago west of Wyandanch. Eyewitness news says the car was trying to cross Straight Path and was hit by the train. The final resting place of the car looks to be a few feet west of the station since the parking lot is visible. The bilevel had no passengers on board. As of now, there is no Ronkonkoma service east of Farmingdale. Limited bus service is being provided.
I saw the car. Looks like there is one less reckless driver in the world.
The news said last night that the car stalled on the tracks and the driver got out in time. How the hell do cars stall directly on the tracks, not before or after.
That's like saying why do tractot trailers jacknife during rush hour and not 2 O'clock in the morning.
Bill "Newkirk"
Could be a great scam if you want to sue the RR for negligence. Deep pockets after all!!!
Now with deference to our resident crime fighter, I will not use any derogatory terms while reporting that since this incident, there were two more "unfortunate" incidents.
Incident #1: Last night on the #3 line at Fulton Street, a gentleman who, through no fault of his own, had too much to drink. He did a 1/2 gainer in front of a #3 train. The mean old train cut the gentleman's leg off.
Incident #2: Today, in New Jersey an AMTRAK train (chartered by the NY Giants) had the bad taste to hit the gentleman who jumped in front of it. If he was trying to stop the Giants from getting to their game with the redskins, he failed. The train was delayed just long enough to remove the body.....
Unfortunately, between now and the end of the year we see a massive increase in the number of similar incidents. It's sad that some people become so desperate.
A coworker of mine recently complained about her lateness "Goddammit, if someone wants to jump in front of a trolley, why they gotta do it at rush hour?"
Back in 1983, while working as an RCI at West 4th St. I responded to nine 12-9 incidents in a three week period (this time of year). More amazing, I worked there just 2 days per week (RDO relief). Only 1/3 involved homeless people on the tracks for various reasons. Each incident causes massive delays for the riding public. Also, while you need to feel sympathy for the departed, the people who are involved, the train crew and the emergency personnel who respond to the scene, also suffer tremendously - hence the anger some of us feel.
While riding a 7 train back to Flushing this afternoon, there were these students filming something, running through the train, and one guy stuck his arm out through the door (it was closed but he somehow managed to stick his arm through) while the train was moving. Just before this act, a girl (while being filmed) held the storm door shut and got one guy stuck in between cars. Looked like some kind of stupid underground romance film or something, but I doubt they had permission.
This type of behavior is dangerous, and should be strictly punished.
Fooling around on the train is dangerous. And I don't appreciate being filmed (they were filming the whole car) without permission. A $1000 penalty should be given to those who film without permission, as well as stupid tourists who have their flash on when taking a picture of a train. This can distract the T/O and cause an accident.
Freedom has it's price.
Freedom has it's price.
A price you are not only unwilling to pay, but wish to spend instead on tyranny.
Another stupid behavior is this "barrel act" thing I mentioned long time ago. It's from these 2 black kids on the train who held onto each other's legs and rolled on the dirty floor from one end to the other to beg for money. Who knows? Maybe if they thought they were on a 75-footer but instead were on a 60-footer and the storm door was stuck open..... eeek. I hope that wouldn't happen in a moving train.
But I would love to see that done on a station mezzanine or in a transfer passage though.
Story in the paper was that the Giants train WAS a suicide. The guy stood in front of the train, smiled, waved, and went splat.
-Hank
Well, it happened again this morning. Silly-season must really be in full swing. This morning it was the main line of the LIRR. Someone either was pushed, fell, jumped or was just plain careless and got in the path of the train just ahead of mine. All this took place at Mineola - a better place to screw up the the rush-hour would be hard to find. It happened at about 7:45 AM and by 12:30 PM, the LIRR was ONLY experiencing 15 - 30 minute delays through the area.
Suicide, unfortunately, goes up at this time of the year. Holiday pressure, the experts say... I don't know myself, but then again those of my faith don't experience the holiday pressure in December that many people do since we only have a minor holiday, not a major one. (Unless you count the pressure that comes from having to deal with the interruption in our lives that someone else's holiday causes... can't even go to a nice restaurant this time of year without being subjected to Christmas music... constant calls and junk mail from solicitors asking me to "help cheer up someone's Christmas"... too many parties at the office, with the consequence that too little work is being done... I'm no Scrooge, but I can't say I disagree with his "humbug" attitude towards the holiday itself [his attitude towards those less fortunate than he, however, is another story]... even the newspaper carrier [who can't seem to manage to get the paper to our house on time] expects a Christmas tip [he's not getting one from me]... AARGH!)
Rant mode = off
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
During the holidays I find the people on the subways, especially tourists to be quite rude and nasty, holding doors and blocking the flow of people. This is a time when everyone thinks of themselves, and how much money they should spend on their spoiled kids,etc. And cell phones (they should be banned in public places) seem to be with everyone (not me).
And when you're alone and not well off (like me) it's a depressing time of year. People are so involved with their own lives they don't see the suffering around them.
And unfortunately, people who feel like they no longer want to go on are pushed off the edge (and often in front of trains) by their depression.
I find NYC quite a depressing and mean place to be during the holidays. The only exception is Chinatown.
Midtown is absolutely horrific. I don't care how many decorations or lights or trees you put up, it's HORRENDOUS!!!!!!
On Saturday, I was on the M5 bus coming from Lincoln Square to Rock. Center, just to get a taste of the midtown holiday stuff. Well, I didn't get a taste - I got an overwealming portion shoved down my throat!
I crap you not, the bus took 15 MINUTES to travel across 59th St. and another 10 minutes to get down to 50th St., when finally I said
Screw It, and decided to get off. Well, the bus was in the middle of the street and I couldn't open the rear doors because their was a car two inches from the bus, so I had to leave through the front (isn't it illegal to pick up and discharge in the middle of the street, BTW?)
Okay, now I'm off the bus, I'll make better time on foot, right?
Yeah! Right!
I don't know what in the name of Rudy Giuliani was going on at St. Patricks, but the sidewalk was packed-solid. I mean NOBODY was moving, and it was like being on a Lexington train during rush hour.
And the bus?
#5144 flew past and was probably on its way back uptown by the time I got to the big tree.
ON top of that it was about 70 degrees . . . negative 70.
So Midtown, and Bloomingdales and the Ice Skating rink, and the Rockettes, and Radio City and TV City or whatever other electronic metropoulos is there, and all the lights and decorations and trees and tourists can stick it where the sun don't shine.
You won't see me in that vicinity until mid-February at the earliest.
The Jersey Malls will be fine for me.
Since when do the New Jersey Giants travel to Washington by train? With few exceptions, pro teams go by chartered jet to road games.
Teams going from New York/New Jersey to Philly by Madden-style bus. In 1992, the California Angels were in a bus crash on the Turnpike en route from visiting the Yankees to visiting the Orioles. Chicago-Milwaukee, LA-San Diego, Oakland-Sacramento, Baltimore-DC, and our local hockey teams are probably the only bus trips in big-league sports.
Perhaps the inclement weather in the southeast and expected delays at the DC-area airports necessitated this.
The Eagles took the train to Washington the previous week, Thanksgiving Sunday, because I-95 gets jammed at peak travel times.
Giants to the train in Washington this weekend, also.
I think you are going to see more of this. Trains are becomming increasingly unreliable and uncomfortable, and football players don't exactly fit in the seats. After three hours of airline air, I can barely function for the rest of the day. Imagine trying to outrun a 250 pound guy who runs a 4.4 40 feeling like that.
In other regions, with less congestion on the roads, I think charter buses have become competitive. The more delays there are in the air, the more land transport becomes competitive at growing distances.
Imagine all the hockey and basketball teams that could travel to play at MSG, via Acela. Bruins,Celtics, Capitals, Wizards, Flyers, 76'ers. There are hotel facities across from the garden. Don't forget that when they go by air, they first wait for luggage at the airport and then have to get on buses to get to the hotel/arena. Train travel to a center city facility has got to beat plane travel on a short hop trip.
THE players themselves do not wait for their luggage, that is what the go-fers are for, they go directly to the bus, the luggage is brought later by truck. Still the train does make more sense.
The Giants are second class compared to the Redskins who now fired their third class coach. I can think of hmmmmmmmmm, wait a second, NO ONE who will miss Turner's presence on the sideline except maybe the Arizona Cardinals who got themselves 2 wins without even playing a game. I sure won't miss their coming to FedEx Field twice a year.
Speaking of the Redskins, some jerk put a Dallas Cowboys helmet sticker on the farebox of WMATA Orion V 9641. I wonder how long it took before some guy at Western figured out who did it and beat him up. UNWRITTEN RULE IN WASHINGTON, DC: YOU MAY NOT ROOT FOR ANY TEAM OTHER THAN THE REDSKINS, BUT IF YOU DO, IT CAN'T BE DALLAS.
The Giants are 2nd class, but who is in 1st place?
Washington, of course! They have the highest payroll. They just had a bad coach.
and a old place kicker who should have stayed retired. Look at the history of the NFL who is more successful not the skins. The Giants. Washington is so crazy about the skins because they have nobody else to root for that comes up to a even 500 season, The Wizards, changing their names, the Caps hah, and even the Skins I am going to have fun when I move to Virginia next month.
Eddie Murray had been with the Redskins awhile back. They got him so they didn't pay a guy who can only kick from more than 30 yards away. They can move the ball downfield. They just can't kick and can't make field goals at the end of the game and not have the other team get a score within the last 30 seconds of the game.
worst team Money can buy
Thay also lost all the good transit they had. There will be a station within walking distance once the blue line to Largo is built.
Forget the playoffs this year, but I believe both the Eagles and Giants play the Browns or a team that isn't much better before the season is over. The Redskins had games versus St. Louis and Tampa Bay and the hardest teams to beat, Arizona and New York Giants.
Thay also lost all the good transit they had. There will be a station within walking distance once the blue line to Largo is built.
Forget the playoffs this year, but I believe both the Eagles and Giants play the Browns or a team that isn't much better before the season is over. The Redskins had games versus St. Louis and Tampa Bay and the hardest teams to beat, Arizona and Dallas.
According to the DN, the Giants have been taking the train to Maryland since an exhibition game in Baltimore last season.
3TM
According to sources, most of the teams in the northeast now go between northeast cities by train. Fewer delays, more comfortable, and in nearly every case, the teams are closer to the hotels and arenas. Teams that travel by train include the Flyers, Giants, Jets, Eagles, Celtics, Bruins, and Capitals.
-Hank
Left out the Knicks and Rangers, but only to Boston and DC.
-Hank
The news said last night that the car stalled on the tracks and the driver got out in time. How the hell do cars stall directly on the tracks, not before or after.
From observations on some of my areas more grade crossing intensive rail lines there are valid reasons cars stall. Railroads run at grade and this makes many grade crossings have a large hump. I know a HUGE hump in Magnolia? on the Beesley's Secondary. Its a 7 foot climb on one side. Some cars can bottom out and get stuck. The other reason is that people stop at the flashers, see the train and deside to go for it. THis practice is common on industrial frieght lines w/ slow speeds and long activation times (so the train may not even be visable). Anyway people w/ standard transmissions come up, stop then try toaccelerate quickly over the tracks (they want to beat the train after all). This results in a stall. BOOM!
I know a HUGE hump in Magnolia?
You might be thinking of the crossing by Dom's, which is in Laurel Springs or Lindenwold. Beasley's Point crews used to radio ahead to Dom's for take-out lunch. Now they stop at Warwick Road and buy lunch at Somerdale Cold Cuts. They disable the crossbuck flashers while they're waiting. They enable the flashers before starting, and with the high horsepower locomotives they use now, the train is up to the 25 mph track speed before the last car crosses Warwick Road.
Its the last crossing before the big crossing at Clementon. I once witnessed a train crew stop (leaving the flashers on) run into a bar and come out w/ a 6 pack.
Yeah, that's Dom's.
The Cummins L10G CNG bus engine has a tendency to stall on upgrade, especially when accelerating from a stop. I sure pray everytime I go across tracks on one of the LI Bus Cummins Orions, that it keeps running.
You are right to be scared. Yesterday a MARTA bus apparently stalled while attempting to cross an at-grade railroad crossing of CSX Transportation's Georgia Subdivision in front of a train. There were 30 ppl. on board, but the train was going slow enough that it only pushed the bus a few hundred feet b4 stoping. Nobody was injured.
Jacknifing has a lot to do with what CAUSES a jacknife, which is the brakes on the cab locking up, and the trailer brakes NOT locking. It happens more during the rush because that's when tractor-trailer drivers hit their brakes more, because of idiots who like to drive Winston Cup style.
Oh, and they don't tie up traffic as much at night, either.
-Hank
My Government teacher had an interesting suggestion on how we should solve the election debacle.
This is a direct quote:
"I think we should make Bush president and appoint Gore Ambassador to Chad."
"I think we should make Bush president and appoint Gore Ambassador to Chad."
Your teacher thinks? Well, that already makes her better than Bush, maybe she should be president!
My friend's government professor sugested that Al Gore be president in the states he won and GW can be president in the states he won.
My friend's government professor sugested that Al Gore be president in the states he won and GW can be president in the states he won.
Does your friend's government professor host the "Late Show" on CBS?
ROFL! That's the best one I've heard!!!!
Do you think the 2nd Avenue Subway will be built before the president is decided? It might happen at this rate...
Did you see the Daily News article yesterday about "Saint Chad, the patron saint of good losers"?
Not a joke. It seems Chad was a 7th century priest in England who was temporarily appointed bishop when the real bishop disappeared. He gracefully stepped aside when the original bishop reappeared, making him the patron of "good losers". The irony is delicious.
With all the news of R-142 deliveries, what's going on with the R-143's? Shouldn't the first car be on its way soon? Or is it even built yet? We haven't heard much about it, except at one point there being a reprt of the first train scheduled to arrive in February.
There was a large post in the nyc.transit newsgroup recently that included many pictures of the car to be delivered in Japan and information about it.
-Harry
Do you have any pictures? I don't want to install Outlook 2000 just to see it.
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I have seen 7271-7275 in road testing on Track M, White Plains Rd and 7281-85 at Unionport Yard. Working towards 7300!!!
I would guess 7276-80 are here? Anyone else see additional 142As?
-Stef
An R142 delivery was being made by two TSS's (supervisors) to 239 Street Yard on Thursday with a diesel acting as the only live car. The TSS's brought the 5 car set to the track and then uncoupled them. Only problem is that the R142 does not have handbrakes, they have "parking brakes" instead and since the R142 cars were inactive, the parking brakes were also inactive as well. So when they uncoupled the R142's, the new cars started to roll down the track and BLAMMO!, right into another diesel. My sources tell me that they were cars 7206,07,08,09,10 (cannot 100% verify the car #'s) and they suffered anti-climber damage and some minor coupler damage.
Isn't that something, not a tenth of a mile in customer service and these 142's are heading for the main shop.
>>>Isn't that something, not a tenth of a mile in customer service<<<
I take this part back.
look at it from the positive side... those are 5 cars which won't be an immediate danger to the riding public...
2755 had a lot less miliage when it was scrapped. These cars will have a more fortunate future. BTW, to those in the TA, why don't the cars have a HANDBRAKE, like the R110s do for a backup? BWAHAHAHAHAHA! I hope the TSSs get away with this one. The rulebook does not mandate that cars with traction motors must be chocked, so this is a good one for the books, keep us informed.
No R68s ever got scrapped. They were only damaged but repaired. Speaking of which, does anybody have information on 2805, 2807 and 2 other R68As that derailed outside of Concourse Yard a while back?
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"2755 had a lot less miliage when it was scrapped."
Of course we know that car #2755 was never scrapped. It was repaired and is running in D service.
The only car numbered 2755 in transit service scrapped was BMT standard #2755. R68 #2755 was not and is still running on the D or N lines (not sure which).
It is part of the Concourse Fleet. It may run on on the B Line from time to time.
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I think it should be pointed out that BMT standard 2755 was scrapped after it had been retired/withdrawn from revenue service, not due to an accident (it would have won, anyway).
As far as I can tell, the 142s have a spring-applied, air-released
parking brake. This change was probably specifically to prevent
the kind of accident that happened, i.e. forgetting to set
sufficient handbrakes after laying up a train and having it get
away after the air brakes bleed off and/or so there are no handbrake
levers for the schoolkids to play with. However, when towing dead
and dry 142s, the parking brakes would have to be manually cut-out,
so OOOPs.
I heard the same thing. I heard it was 7306-7310 though. You may be right on the car #'s.
Train#1930Mike
Don't blame the cars for this incident, but the ignorance of those handling them.
zman179:
It seems like when the bozos designed the cars that forgot about equipping them with handbrakes so they could avoid such an accident that just occurred. Didn't it ever occur to them that you should have handbrakes just in case you need them. I guess that they were not using their atrophied brains at the moment.
BMTJeff
I've often said, "A camel is a race horse that was designed by a committee.
Train Dude:
I also wanted to add that the lack of handbrakes could pose a hazard to passengers in the event that the train loses power while it is moving. Then there is no way to stop the train. How stupid can the people who designed the R-142s be. I guess extremely stupid. The people who designed the R-142s had no brains to begin with or they were whacked out on drugs.
BMTJeff
Handbrakes are not the same thing as the emergency brake pull cords. If the train loses power the motorman should still have air brake control (or it just dumps, I'm not sure).
Dave, you are absolutely correct.
TD - I'll repeat my earlier post which languishes in a parallel
thread. I think you'll know the official answer since you've
probably seen the CED manuals on the 142, which I haven't.
As I understand it, the 142/142A cars have no handbrakes.
Instead they have "parking brakes". These serve the same
function, but instead of being normally released and manually
applied, they are spring-applied and released by air pressure.
When the train is charged up the parking brakes release.
The primary cited advantage of this approach is safety: when
laying up a train you can't forget to apply sufficient handbrakes,
which as you know is a major cause of layup and yard rollaway
accidents (hours after the train is laid up and the brake cylinders
have bled off).
There is a little compartment under a seat near a side door marked
"PBCO" on the 142(A). Again, as I understand it, in the event
that the parking brakes become stuck, they can be released by
winding up the parking brake cutout (PBCO) by hand, thus overcoming
the spring tension and releasing the parking brakes.
Making a drag with dead and dry R142(A) cars you'd have to use
the PBCO on each car. My guess is that those making this move
became confused about this and didn't realize that before cutting
away the engine they'd have to either chock or go back and
un-cut-out a sufficient number of parking brakes.
A lot of the design features on the 142 were added because "gee,
wouldn't it be cool if....." This seems like a good example.
Jeff, I have yet to see any documentation on the R-142s. Seems that the north is a seperate company these days - in more ways than one. But you seem to be agreeing with me. After seeing 130+ "After-overhaul" modifications on the R-46 for just that reason - "gee, wouldn't that be nice if...................", I question design by committee.
We'll see if this operational error leads either to a design
change or a rulebook change!
Typical MTA oversight....
luckily there were no injuires, right??
BMTman
I live near the "Q" and not only was i upset when we lost the R68 and got the R40, now i see that the "Q" is not even listed when it comes to the new 63rd Street plan. Is the "Q" there at all? Will the "M" come back here sending the "D" express from 205th St to brighton Beach during weekdays? Someone HELP!!!
The Q will be going back to Broadway when the Bridge switches sides around the same time. I had wished they would mention that change too.
Better to not complicate things with service changes irrelevant to the 63rd. St. service and those who would use it. The bridge flip is a more important story to south Brooklyn straphangers.
Most people on this message board think having the slant-40s on the Q is a good thing ....
--Mark
It's a great thing. Putting the swiftest cars on the best express run was pure genius.
I was tickled to pieces when the slants went to the Q. The fact that the Q is a weekday-only service allows them to rest up over the weekend.
That move ranks up there with the all-time best initial equipment assignment ever: putting the R-10s on the A.
I loved those R68As on the Q Line. I think when the bridge is flipped, the Q will run to 57 Street and 7 Avenue and terminate.
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what affect will the bridge flip have on "D" and "B" service and is it truely going to happen in 2001? This rout idea in bklyn would be my ultimate choice:
B-Coney Island to Queensboro Plaza
B-W4th St to 145th st or Bedford Park Blvd
D-W 4th St to 205th St Bronx
Q-Brighton Beach to 57th St-7th Av-express wkdys-to coney island wknds
M-Coney Isl to Metropolitan Av weekdays
S-shuttle from Bway Lafeyette to Grand St
if this works instead, bring the R68 back to the Q
Any service south of 34th St on the upper Manhattan portions of the B and D lines is redundant and potentially confusing. Terminating them at 34th St. forces people off the trains so they can make the x-fer to the Broadway line for trains bound for Brooklyn.
You may get your wish after all. I've heard the R-68s are slated to go back to the Q when the bridge flip-flop takes place.
I can sum up my feelings in two words:
Oooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooo.
Not nooooooooooooooooooooo, but:
slooooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwww
That too.:-)
My thoughts exactly. :-(
What I don't understand is why the NYCTA does not open the 63rd Street connector right now (assuming it will be finished soon) and extend Q trains (or B trains, if they are terminating at 21st-Queensbridge) onto the QB local, and terminate them at 71st-Continental along with the other QB local service, then cut back the G to Court Sq. for all times. Manhattan bound commuters would gain direct service to Manhannatan, and the only people to lose out are users of Queens Plaza station. No V, no new express service until we get the cars, just put the tunnel into use. What am I missing here?
At the same time, the Manhattan Bridge flip-flop will take place preventing 6th Avenue Q trains from using the connector.
I believe that the V train will only be a temporary line until the 6th Ave side of the bridge is fixed and then maybe the Q will run to Queens.
The Q may use the switches west of Lexington Avenue and 63 Street. They were used daily during the 1995 semi-closures.
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So it takes the switches, then what happens? Your only move is a reverse into 57th/7th...
Nooo, look at the track maps on the site. It can take the switches directly next to Lexington Avenue Station and head into Queens.
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Yes, yes, you're right. I thought you were talking about _terminating_ the Q at Lex. -THAT would be a problem.
** "never mind" **
Dave
When the Manhattan bridge construction is done, the Q will go back where it belongs: on Broadway. It wont use 63rd. St and go into Queens. The 63rd. St. line was designed to have 6th Ave. trains run to Queens. So either the V will remain as it's proposed, or the V itself (a more realistic scenerio) will serve 63rd. St thru the connector. Either way, it's here for good.
Uh, no. The 63rd Street line connects to both 6th Avenue and Broadway. The Q could run from Queens to Broadway just as easily as from Queens to 6th.
Friday's morning commute on the Queens Blvd. lines was absolutely nightmarish.
While operating the R, we encountered a broken rail just south of Woodhaven Blvd. on 1 track. All G/R trains were restricted to 5 mph and E/F trains were restricted to 10 mph due to personnel on the roadbed. Needless to say, backups were the norm. In order to weld the bad rail back into place, local service(at 830 am) was suspended for 30 minutes(can you say: station overcrowding?).
So that little incident caused us to run 15 minutes late after we cleared the area.
Later on the same trip, we approach Prince Street and run right into the back of a conga line. Obviously something is wrong again. Guess what it was? ANOTHER broken rail! This one was south of City Hall on the curved portion of 1 track there.
Finally we arrived at our last stop(Whitehall Street) only 28 minutes late. I plan to stay with the TA for another 25 years and in that time I may never have another day when I run into two broken rails. On the same one-way trip nonetheless! Go figure.
Perhaps the cold weather did play a factor, contributing to whatever broke the rail.
Hello,
With the F train now being sent on the 63rd Street Connector at all times, wouldn't a routing punch at Roosevelt Avenue be required (on the w/b express track?) I know that they recently installed a routing punch on the w/b express and local at 36 street (with a lot of buttons, didn't stop to look what they say). I don't think it would be good to have the F train stop at 36th street to punch its way to 63rd Street connector. A punch at Roosevelt would be better.
Also, I read nothing about the Q train change in the Daily News article, and maybe just two postings here about it. Is this true - will the Q train be sent up broadway and terminate at 57th Street N/R station? Or will it use a different route?
Take care,
- Jose
I thought that the G would terminate at Queens Plaza, and get turned around ( ends switched ) in that middle track just outside the station and just past the double crossover on the 179th St. bound tracks. Passengers would not have to hike through Court Square Station to make connections, as everything would be just across the platform.
That would tie up the entire Queens line for every reverse
There is an enormous punch box on the SOUTHBOUND EXPRESS TRACK, AT THE 36TH STREET STATION, JUST FEET BEFORE THE SWITCH TO 63RD STREET TUNNEL.
I thought that the City would continue to run G service to 71st, while expanding the R to 179th, with the V going to 71st as well.
If the stories that have been circulated are true, and the F is the only train going from Queens Blvd to 63rd tunnel, then all local stations between Roosevelt and 36th Street will not be able to take advantage of this new tunnel.
Yeah, i just realized that too. Why not have the V local run via 63rd. st. That way people between 36th and roosevelt could use the tunnel if the so desired. Sending the F that way will not ease congestion. And, what will happen to the Q? It can't terminate at 21st if the F is going through it.
I doubt they would have both a Q and V, either one or the other
There is a punch at Roosevelt D3 track.
Talk of the Schukyll Valley Metro made me remember that I had planned out a whole dream transit system. It only involved commuter and regional rail, but its still good. Please feel free to share your transit dreams:
My plan starts out w/ a billionaire putting me in charge of a private commuter rail system. The Conrail Vineland Sec. is bought and I install a 600 VDC 3rd rail system for EMU's. It first runs to Glassboro and then to Millville. We also run frieght on the line and the old Geeps are retrofitted w/ 3rd rail shoes and DC dual mode. The line is double tracked all the way to Vineland and single to Millville with a 3 track stetch from BROWN to WOODBURY. Along w/ 3/4 covers the 3rd rails are dipped in plactic to insulate all but the top. Hi-level stations are built at Millville, Vineland, Newfield, Malaga, Franklinville, Clayton, Glassboro, Pitman, Sewell, Woodbuty Heights (local), Woodbury, Westville and Glouchester City. All signals are PRR position light and the line is cab signaled. Trains can reach speeds of 90-100 mph. 3 interlocking towers are built at BROWN, WOODBURY and GLSSBORO to each control a segment of the line. The Camden terminal is built over the Rand Transportation center and has 6 tracks. Later, after some PATCO adjustment an underground station adjacent to PATCO will be built.
This project is so sucessful that the state throws money at me and we build a 2 track tunnel from just before Westville, under the Delaware and into Greenwich yard in South Philly. There's a stop at the Sports Complex and then the trains run on 3rd rail into a new platform at 30th St. where the car park is. After this a branch is built on the Beesley's Poin through southern Camden Co. all the way to Winslow Jct. This route is also 3rd rail electrified.
Pennsylvania is so impressed that I have made a profitable transit system they loan and grant my company money to build a Reading Philly line. We use the PRR line from Cynwyd to Norriston and its a hi-speed w/ non-stop 100 mph running. At N-town there;s a station stop before the electrified line crosses the river and then onto the NS Harrisburg line. The line has been 4 tracked in all the places that it had been and 100% electrified. We also twin the Black Rock tunnel. Stations are at Valley Forge, Phoenixville, Pottstown, Roysford, Birdsboro and Reading (front and outer stations). Later on I go on the buy the Harrisburg Line, Reading Line and Lehign line from NS. I electrify them all and as well as offering passenger service I haul freight electrically at speeds approaching 90mph. I also make money from a factory that makes ties out of recycled plastic.
In the latter days of Reading commuter service between Pottsville/Reading and Reading Terminal, one inbound train stopped at Valley Forge in the AM and one outbound in the PM. I was told that this was to accommodate the caretaker of Washington's headquarters building.
An R and an E left 71/Continental at the exact same time, and both were R-46. The R was late and had been ordered to go express on the local. We were neck and neck for a while, but then we hit the timers at 63Dr. The R sailed by, and just when we were about to catch up... bam! The Grand Ave timers. When we opened the doors at Roosevelt, the R had already left. This is utterly disgraceful, especially since it appeared the R was actually following the "15 MPH leaving station" rule (or at least it slowed down a bit at stations).
This holds true for the 4th Avenue Line heading southbound into 36 Street. A stopped R46 R Train sees a R32 N Train coming by. It leaves 25 Street and get's to 36 Street before the N train does. This has helped me catch an express train from the R quite a few times.
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It sounds like last Spring, when I rode the N Slow Beach. The N and R left 36th St same time, and arrived at 62nd St the same time,
Don't you mean N & B?
Don't you mean the 'B' and 'N' left 36th Street and got to 62nd Street at the same time? If you're on a Coney-bound 'N' approaching New Utrecht, it's easy to see a Coney-bound 'B' upstairs arriving at 62nd.
The 'R' doesn't go anywhere near 62nd Street.Unless, of course, you mean the switch where the 'N' peels off 4th Avenue to come outside; that's roughly between 65th and 66th Streets.
Downtown A and D trains creep past 72nd street, while a train on the local track gets ahead.
Once I was on an A train, passed by a B at 81st, but we pulled in at the same time at 59th!
On that downtown express run on Central Park West, an A or D train should actually be going at a faster rate of speed at 72 St than at 81 St.
You have to break down the speed just south of 81 St to around 27 mph to allow the homeball timer to clear with sufficient space in the event that it stays red. After it clears, you go at top speed to south of 72 St. Then you gradually slow it down to about 15 mph for 3 sets of homeballs on time. One of these homeballs doesn't have the white "S" lit up to let you know that it's on time even though it is. Most T/O's take it easy just in case it isn't cause if you hit it, demotion is likely. 15 mph is safe but you can do as much as 20 if you're willing to roll the dice.
Coming into Queens Plaza this evening on the F, I saw another F coming in on the local track (rerouted to the G because of the smoke condition at W4, I presume?), signed "QUEENS EXPRESS." It stayed on the local track, apparently making local stops, and still managed to leave Roosevelt Avenue as my express F got there! I also noticed in that reflected in the windows of the passing local F was the destination sign of my F, which still read "6 AV/CULVER LCL - TO CONEY ISLAND." Weird day under Queens Blvd.
Expresses can get slowed down due to congestion, timers, and dwell time. Sometimes it doesn't pay. Even though "express" makes people think it's faster, sometime you're better off taking a local and being more comfortable, since the express may only save you a minute or less.
I sure hope they speed up Queens Blvd expresses, but maybe more people will take the V train.
It's psychological. I don't like the idea of stopping at every station; that's why I avoid locals at all costs.
This business of locals zooming along while expresses lope is nothing new. It's been going on for years. Not too many A trains of R-10s were victimized by this, however.
Speaking of psychological reasons for taking the express... what was the real advantage to taking the Train to the Plane over the A? I realize that it was a "Super Express" that made no stops after Jay Street (?), but wouldn't it get stuck behind As (and CCs beyond Euclid) making regular stops? If so, then the only justification for its existence seems to be for people who don't want to share a train with the "undesirables" who would be served by the stops along Pitkin & Liberty Aves, since although it would have to make "simulated stops," the doors would never open?
I've heard that JFK Expresses were sometimes sent along the express track on the Liberty Ave. elevated segment if there was congestion ahead. I took it once in 1984, and it didn't stop at all past Jay St. until we got to Howard Beach and to make that little reverse move they used to do.
Yes, and the crew would ask passengers to remain seated until the train came to a complete stop! What a joke! the rest of the system jammed to the gills, and some wanabee flight attendant asking passengers to remain seated.
As for making the switch back just so travelers didn't have to climb stairs or the crew didn't have to open and close the doors twice. I could never figure that one out. The train to the plane was an express bus with hard seats. More daily commuters used it than air travelers back then. I did. It was a sure seat. Its route matched mine. For a real train to the plane you need :
1) Direct access to the air terminals.
2) City Terminals at Grand Central, Penn Station and Port Auth. and LIRR Atlantic Ave Terminal or City Hall Chambers Street Terminal.
3) Future direct connection to LGA and Newark.
4) Future future , access over the Hellsgate for Conn, residents to all three Major airports.
5) The mind set of planners should be PROactive not reactive when it comes to providing a real connecting service for air travelers.
But in the past the A operated express in Brooklyn only during rush hours when the CC operated local then. And if I'm not mistaken, the JFK Express only ran every 20-25 minutes. So during most hours, it had the Fulton St express tracks to itself. It's too bad the Train to the Plane never actually went to the plane (by that I mean the actual JFK Airport terminals!) or it might actually have been a smashing success.
Steve, R142, & Ron - thanks!
If it did actually go into the airport, I'm sure it would have been far more successful. The extra fare isn't totally justifiable when you're still required to haul your luggage onto and off of a bus, when you can just throw it into the back of a taxi and avoid contact with other human beings...
The TtoTP ran every 20 minutes. During most of it's run, it ran on express trackage used only during rush hours. While it would get slowed down near Hoyt-Schermerhorn during rush hours, the Fulton St line hardly ran at 100% capacity and these delays were minimal.
It's only problem was befor 4/1986 when it shared the 57th St. terminal with the B. Sometimes, it got stuck at Rockefeller Ctr. waiting for an open track.
Usually, everybody would be seated in the last of a 3-car train. I would have loved to peer through the opening in the cab door window as it switched from the 6th Ave. local track to the 8th Ave. local track south of W. 4th St. I did see the switch this past October, though.
DUDE, sometimes, a local train MAKING stops can keep up with an express. This is especially true during AM's on the southbound track.
Sometimes locals making stops can OUTRUN the expresses (not on this line though)
Sometimes it makes for an interesting turtle race.:-)
The timers on the Manhattan bound express track between 71st/Cont. and Roosevelt are overdone, and ruin any speed that could be accomplished. Locals do catch up to us at Roosevelt. The TA is just too timer happy.
I can name several other areas of excess timers, mainly on express tracks. The express track Queens bound just before veering off Northern Blvd. The 53rd street tube, as well the timers between 5 av and Lex on the 53rd street line.
Also the timers on the Broadway line before Canal street (northbound) seem to be pointless.
>>>as well the timers between 5 av and Lex on the 53rd street line<<<
Sorry John, but there are no timers in this area.
Otherwise what you said about timers ruining speed is true. But in most of the areas that you mentioned, the train is going on a downgrade or on a curve and the TA I suppose does not want express trains going 55 mph downhill(not that I would mind) nor does it want excessive speeds on certain curves.
Also the Canal St(N/R) timers serve two purposes. One, without it trains would be taking that small S curve north of City Hall at top speed when it's to be taken at 10 mph. Two, trains would be overshooting the Canal St station at an alarming rate.
Out of curiosity, is the Queens-Bound 59th Street Tunnel the only place in the entire system with a "GT 50" sign?
The only other area that I know of that has a "GT 50" is the 14 St tube(L line) between 1 Av and Bedford Av in both directions.
Well my trip today in the 60th street tube wasn't anywhere near 50, since there were lots of track workers in their, it was slow the whole way. Wondering what they were doing down there?
Well my trip today in the 60th street tube wasn't anywhere near 50, since there were lots of track workers in there, it was slow the whole way. Wondering what they were doing down there?
The 53rd street (timers) aren't GT's but probably slow trains down when there is congestion (train traffic ahead).
The Queens Blvd Express can be downright frustrating. I mean, twice in a row the E and F skip FIVE STATIONS AT A TIME, but at least a third of the time they fail to pick up much of a lead against the G and R locals. Sometimes the locals beat the express, and I wonder what I'm sitting or standing in a huge crowd for! And at lest once my F train was stopped for so long (far from any express stop) that SIX locals passed us!
I know there's high volume, and resulting congestion. But there's gotta be something they could be doing better here. Are the other expresses this slow?
Andrew
[Sometimes the locals beat the express, and I wonder what I'm sitting or standing in a huge crowd for! ]
Stop wondering and use your experience.
Arti
Well, yeah. But it's not as if you can reliably predict when the local is going to be faster. But maybe I will take the local sometimes anyway.
:-)Andrew
In the morning rush, if I must go to Manhattan via subway, I will take the R all the way (I'm at the third stop, guaranteed window seat). Otherwise if I have to go to Manhattan in the morning I take the QM10 or 12 for midtown, the QM11 for downtown.
I've seen many a similar complaint here about the 4/5/6.
At least you have a solution: ride the local. On the 1/2/3/9, the problem is reversed: there isn't enough local service during rush hours. Express after express goes by as the platforms fill up. When a local finally arrives, it's fallen so far behind schedule that invariably it's running express too -- so the crowds don't get any smaller, since anyone who could have used an express would have taken one of the many that just went by. Somehow this problem is being simply ignored, and (IINM) the plan when the R142's come in is to simply replace the Redbirds rather than keeping at least a few around to improve service.
Today for instance I took an R from 34th street to Roosevelt avenue. Once in Queens on the local, we zoomed between stations. There aren't any timers on the local, as the train can get to full speed, and in between stations, often when I'm on an E or F the R will be going faster than us. Only when it makes stops does it lose time, but express on the local is faster than on the express, as long as there isn't congestion.
In rush hour it would probably be faster and more comfortable if you took the R.
You see, riding the Queens Blvd. lines during the AM rush hour is a crapshoot no matter if you select the express or the local.
You can never predict whether the "sick passenger" will be on the local or the express, if there is going to be a broken rail(rare), train with brakes in emergency, signal problems, or just general overcrowding.
Last week while working the R, I can say with 100% certainty that the local was NOT the way to go last week.
My best advice to you is: ride any train that you can get a seat on and hope the commute goes halfway decent.
Or maybe one day a week, find an alternative way to go to/from the city whether it be an express bus, the J line (if you work in lower Manhattan), or the LIRR from Kew Gardens/Forest Hills/Jamaica. These options may not be feasible for you but if they are, then maybe you should consider them. It may (or may not) be better than what you currently put up with.
Alternate subject heading: The great R-46 door conspiracy of December, 2000.
My F train was first held in the tunnel at 8:15 because of an unconscious passenger at Roosevelt Ave. This cost us 14 minutes. At 23-Ely Ave, it took 16 tries to get the doors in the front half of the train closed. We still didn't move, indicating there must have been a problem in the back. After 5 or so minutes of that, the train was taken out of service due to door problems. Not wanting to be part of the platform full of people waiting for the next train, I went back to Queens Plaza to get an R. I usually take the 6, but I didn't want to deal with whatever mess would be waiting at 51 St, so I was going to stay on the R. Still at Lexington, our doors close; apparently, there were problems in the front of the train. The conductor comes over the PA, "We're having door problems, we're investigating, we'll be moving shortly." The doors in the back open, I bail out for the 6. Before I reach the stairs - you guessed it - out of service! It's now 9:20. No problems on the 6, fortunately, and I was only 40 minutes late for work. Express bus for me tomorrow?
I made every single wrong choice this morning!
I got on the F at Van Wyck Blvd. It was held there. There was an announcement that there was a sick passenger at Roosevelt Ave and that all trains would be running local. Then when we got to 71st Ave we were still on the express track.
I wish I had gotten right on the R at that point. Would have saved me a full hour!
The F was slow, often stopped, but it pulled into Roosevelt just shy of the R that had left 71st the same time as us. Everything seemed to be allright. So I stayed on. BIG MISTAKE!!!!
We got as far as 65th (express tracks) when we heard the announcement about door failure at 23-Ely. And as we sat there forever, the conductor just kept giving that appologetic announcement.
At Queens Plaza I decided to wise up and thake the R. I CAN'T FRIGGIN' WIN!!!! The R pulls in (after the F and and E leave) with the announcement that it will be held there because of a train that was stopped at Lex. So I got on the next E and took it took Lexington.
I should have stayed there and then. I transfered to the 6, using the WORST transfer I know of in the whole system. I ran up the stairs huffing and puffing rarther than wait in line for the escalator, then squeezed onto a 6 train.
I stayed on the 6 which was slow but moving to Union Square. But just to add insult to injury, just this once the 4/5's kept passing us.
I was an hour late today.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
(Can you believe the 7, an ancient IRT with scratchy old redbirds, actually beats the Queens Blvd. line? I would use it if it weren't so hard to park in Flushing. Anyway, it might be the express bus for me tomorrow!)
Sounds like you were a train or two behind me! You probably would have still been stuck on or behind the dead R, even if you switched at Roosevelt.
Would you belive that a coworker picked today as his first time riding the F as opposed to the express bus? :)
Yup, I've been taking the 7 most of the time now, Queens Blvd is a big mess. And nothing beats riding the 7 when it's cool and crisp, and looking out that front window seeing the beautiful views.
I don't know why anyone would say that the Q-60 is faster than anything underground. Where is it faster? At all those red lights? Is it faster when it stops AT EVERY SINGLE STOP? Or how about when it takes 10+mins to pass the vicinity of the Queens Center Mall? The only time I use the Q-60, is at night, when I know it leaves 2nd Ave. at 12:05, and will arrive at 67th Ave. at 12:40.
And don't get me started on conductors who announce that there is a "door problem". The problem is not mechanical. The problem is that the people would not let the conductor close the doors, so he just gets mad and takes the train out of service.
I was being semi-facetious about the Q60; semi because a bus averaging 3 mph is faster than a stalled train.
I don't know the specifics of how the door system works (Jeff H?), but I believe a passenger holding a door open forcefully enough can knock it out of alignment, so it is not recognized as "closed" and the train cannot proceed with passengers.
I am sure that passengers can cause door problems. But I know too many people who work as conductors that have just said, "#*&! it!", and taken the train out of service.
Good for them! :)
OK, maybe not so good for the thousands of us who are delayed...
I remember a post a while ago about conductors using the "Veg-O-Matic" method of closing the doors. That, I like!
This thought crossed my mind this morning, after the 11th attempt at closing the doors at 23-Ely: what if there was a strict policy that stated after the 15th failed attempt to close the doors, the train was automatically OOS? Would it discourage people from diving through closing doors to squeeze onto a packed train, or do enough people have the mentality that, "if I'm not going to get there before these people, then none of us are getting there at all?"
A still insist the best deterent is strict punishment.
(whack!)
They damage trains, which is vandalism.
----------
NOTICE TO ALL RIDERS
Door holders will be procecuted! Hold a door and recieve a $1000 fine.
Do it again and you'll be in for a flogging!
Mass Transit Authority of Singapore
-----------
Now that's the way to get it done!
Why would the Mass Transit Authority of Singapore flog passengers in New York?
Besides, one minor difficulty is that the United States Constitution doesn't permit flogging in response to holding doors. I'm sure you'd have no trouble convincing states to repeal the Constitution.
Thats okay, but where will the flogging take place , and when?
I would suggest a the fare control of a very busy station during the AM rush. If that slows things down , perhaps the Iceskating ring at Rockefeller Plaza. Maybe half time at the Super Bowl. I also suggest the perp be dressed only in a loin cloth and be bound with heavy hemp cords. Great visual effects! Sale of commercial tv time to buy bullet proof vest for conductors.
avid
Door holding is a real, growing problem. And lately I've seen people pry their hands into the doors and force them open. A swift, strict punishment should be established for door holders. Hold a door and recieve a $1000 fine. If you fail to pay you be flogged.
Watch the door holding cease immediately.
I'm told that there already is a $200 fine for door holding, and signs pointing this out do exist, though I've never seen one or seen it enforced.
The R46's do seem to have problems with the doors alot. They can't seem to get them closed. I remember many a time on an F, when it took 10 or more tries to get the doors closed, usually at 5th/53rd.
People hold doors too, sometimes forcing them open. This does damage the trains. The funny thing is the "good ol'" Redbirds seem to be much easier to close the doors. Lately my rides on the Queens Blvd IND have been alot more unpleasant than the 7.
Perhaps the TA shouldn't be in such a rush to junk them, they can still be reliable trains.
I know the 'birds don't have door mechanisms that automatically re-open, but perhaps getting a scare is what these door holders deserve. It's either that or flogging if I'm the guy in charge!
And I'm prefering the <7> again because the signals seem to handle the high train capacity better.
The F stands for fail!!
"Perhaps the TA shouldn't be in such a rush to junk them, they can still be reliable trains."
I know that, you know that, many of us here know that. Others say they're old and obsolete, and the general perception of the riding public is old=dirty and useless, new=clean and efficient. So we'll have to suffer through those automated announcements and keep getting held up by door systems that care more about passenger safety than keeping trains moving.
I think public flogging is a bit extreme, but I did post on the Straphangers board that razor blades should be installed on door edges. It wasn't too popular over there, but it did get quoted in the New York Times!
I know the 'birds don't have door mechanisms that automatically re-open, but perhaps getting a scare is what these door holders deserve. It's either that or flogging if I'm the guy in charge!
Or a dragging.
Once upon a time you could be on an Express, seated, and you would pass a Local. If, as you went by the veiw was a blur, you felt Very important. If the veiw wasn't to blurrie, you were important. If you just crept by, you were slightly more important then the riders on the local. Now when your on the express, crowed and standing and the local passes you because your train is only going halffast.
ITS YOU WHO ARE HALFASSED! You've been lured by advertizing, you actually beleived the Express is going to be an express. The peasants on the local have the seats, the room, and the speeeeeeeeeed. Do your feet hurt Sparky?
avid
I know exactly how you feel! It's the same exact way on the Lexington Avenue Line almost every evening! The 4 and 5 express always travel at a snail's pace while the 6 passes by with half as many people as the overcrowded express. Someone should complain!
Plenty of people do
www.straphangers.org...
:)
Then take the 6!
Ahh yes. Those half empty southbound local trains just fly right by. Like when I get on the G or R at 67th Ave. and by the time we are pulling in to Roosevelt, and everyone is crammed in because it has been 12 mins. since the last local, the conductor struggles to close the local doors AT EACH STOP, and six or seven express trains have passed us by, I curse myself for not just walking to 71st Continental.
I remember my first express ride in Queens, on a prewar E train in May of 1968. It wasn't a favorable first impression, as we boarded this train at Union Turnpike on the local track (normal operation back then) and I had already developed a dislike for the E because it ran local in Manhattan even though the R-1/9 side route curtains said 8th Ave. EXPRESS. Then, when we stopped at 75th Ave., I started doing a slow burn, thinking we would be running local all the way into Manhattan. Then we switched to the express track and man, did that train start to move. After we left Continental Ave., we were cruising. Same thing after Roosevelt Ave. I still vivdly remember coasting through the stretch along Northern Blvd., then hearing the bull and pinion gears singing out a resounding F# above middle C when the motorman reapplied power at 36th St., which was a blur.
That was one of the very few R-1/9 express runs I ever had. It was most enjoyable; however, it didn't change the way I felt about E trains in general.
massive congestion on the EF for some reason slows it up. it's baffling! every am rush it is like this till roosevelt ave. i assume that one of the problems for such a sluggish express is the congestion of roosevelt ave. station and too many trains on the line. the trains are always one behind the other. they are more frequent than the R and G trains. thats why R's and G's move by so fast. and The Q60 being faster than anything under ground? 99.99% of that is hell no! am and pm that bus is like riding a rock and waiting for the next ice age to move it.
The plans for the V train show that those who make up scheduling need more experience out in the field. Under the proposal outlined in the Friday 12/1/00 NY Daily News, there will be major problems. For one thing, Manhattan bound at Roosevelt: a large percentage of people who get on there and who are already on the current E & F trains are destined for Lex/53. Once the V starts running, if this proposal is adopted, very few will want the F because it will have no connection with the Lex IRT and and very few will want the V because it will go local. The E will get pounded. What about when an E & V meet at Queens Plaza? Both services will have 23/Ely as their next stop. One train will be delayed by the other and the passengers will be running back & forth between the two demanding to be on the train that leaves first. From Manhattan: at Lex/53 the E will again be pounded since not many people will want the V local. At Queens Plaza, when a V & R meet, one of them will be delayed as they both need the same track once they leave with passengers running back & forth demanding to ride the first train to go. You will also have the V trains crossing Queens Plaza interlocking in both directions (diamond crossovers): a slow speed move with the switch itself being pounded all day. I can go on and on. I made a proposal several months ago which I think would work: have the F be local thru Queens via 63rd St. 24/7 terminating at Continental (send it to 179 on the midnite if the V isn't running) and have the V join the E as the other Queens Blvd Exp. The railroad will be kept moving under my proposal since you will not have trains cutting out each other on the crossover at Queens Plaza and passengers running from train to train to be one the first train to leave.
(I made a proposal several months ago which I think would
work: have the F be local thru Queens via 63rd St. 24/7 terminating at Continental (send it to 179 on the midnite if the V isn't running) and have the V join the E as the other Queens Blvd Exp. The railroad will be kept moving under my proposal since you will not have trains cutting out each other on the crossover at Queens Plaza and passengers running from train to train to be one the first train to leave. )
Sounds good to me. Instead of 18 F trains from Queens and 14 from Brooklyn AM, the could have 14 in both directions. Meanwhile, the V Express to 2nd Ave could have 18 trains. As we discussed, east side local riders could wait for the R and switch at 59th Street.
But I like my idea of sending the V to WTC along with the E better, assuming they can turn fast enough at the terminal. More cross-town service for those at Penn and the PABT, no merge and switch at 53rd and 6th. E/V riders to 6th Avenue in Midtown could switch to the B/D at 7th Avenue.
why not turn them at essex street
Impossible. The tracks from 6th Ave. only merge with the Nassau St line's eastbound track. It can't turn around using the middle track.
There is going to be total madness at Roosevelt Avenue on the AM rush. You are going to have soooooo many people getting off the F trains at Roosevelt to wait for an E or V so that they may go to Lex/53 or 5/53. People from 179 St to 75 Av will now have to use two trains to get to their destination and they're all going to get off at Roosevelt.
Why not get the E train at Union Tpke or Continental you say? Face it, people who have a seat on the F are not going to get up until the last possible minute(I know I would), and considering how slow and meandering the Queens Blvd trains can be, would you really want to stand up all the way into Manhattan? Sure you could get the local V at CTL and get a seat, but do you really want to increase your commuting time? And do you want to take a local everyday?
My wife would be affected by this plan. When it takes effect, she'll be taking the express bus to/from work everyday and ditch the subway altogether.
[There is going to be total madness at Roosevelt Avenue on the AM rush. You are going to have soooooo many people getting off the F trains at Roosevelt to wait for an E or V so that they may go to Lex/53 or 5/53]
It would be difficult to assess as we really don't know where those people are heading. Stops at 63rd St line may be as close to their destination.
[Why not get the E train at Union Tpke or Continental you say? Face it, people who have a seat on the F are not going to get up until the last possible minute(I know I would), ]
Appearently they would. Times interviewed a commuter who did exactly that, also based on her experience she had problem getting on at Union Tpke.
[Sure you could get the local V at CTL and get a seat, but do you really want to increase your commuting time? And do you want to take a local everyday?
My wife would be affected by this plan. When it takes effect, she'll be taking the express bus to/from work everyday and ditch the subway altogether. ]
The local is not that much slower perhaps 5 minutes or so. Express bus probably is slower and definitely less predictable than local train.
Arti
People will adjust and x-fer at Union Tpke or Forest Hills. And don't forget the large percentage of those destined to the 53rd/Lexington Ave. station who use local stops along Queens Blvd, who now can get there directly.
I assume you were trying to respond to zman179.
Arti
The only good thing about this is that it will FORCE local riders west of Roosevelt to use the V to access Sixth Ave. from Queens, as the F will branch off with no transfer possible at Queens Plaza.
People need to be convinced that locals are better than expresses at certain times. People will have to adjust to riding a local, or endure massive congestion on the E.
An apology to the TA schedule makers as I gave them a bad rap. They do not make decisions on service plans, they make up schedules as needed based on recomendations by the service planners.....I can understand their logic based on the G terminating at Court Sq. Passengers can simply change to the V at 23/Ely and get a direct ride to their local station on Queens Blvd. Under my plan, people from Brooklyn would have to change at Court Sq./23 Ely for the E or V, then again at Queens Plaza for the R. Any service plan will be painful. The 63rd St. line was supposed to connect with a new line thru Queens which was never built. The TA has to deal with this, they have to play with the cards dealt to them.
Or, keep the E and F as they are and let the "V" be the new 63rd St. train, running local all the way from 2nd Ave. to 71st St. Doesn't it make sense to use the new letter for the new service?
There is still the question of where to terminate the "Q". If the Q is staying on 6th Ave., then forget the "V" all together and stick with the original plan of running the "Q" through 63rd St., local in Queens to 71st. Yes, it means that in Queens the "F" is express and the "Q" is local, while in Manhattan the "Q" is express and the "F" is local. So what? Maybe that will balance the load a little in Queens.
But if the Manhattan Bridge "flip" is going into effect at the same time, then they need to address the whole situation and not come out with plans that only cover a portion of the change being made.
And who's responsible for the press release saying that the E and R trains could be changed for at Court Square, instead of (under the plan being proposed) the E and V? I saw this same mistake in two different papers.
But would the TA want to run the V 24/7? I doubt it. No need for 3 services thru Queens on the midnite. If you send the F via 63rd St. on the midnite only, people would be quite confused.
The Q Exp could terminate at 57/7. Q Local could run thru 63 St to Forest Hills, with no 6th Ave Service via 63rd St. They would close 57/6 and people would walk 1 block to 7th. They did that for years
"Or, keep the E and F as they are and let the "V" be the new 63rd St. train, running local all the way from 2nd Ave. to 71st St. Doesn't it make sense to use the new letter for the new service?
"There is still the question of where to terminate the "Q". If the Q is staying on 6th Ave., then forget the "V" all together and stick with the original plan of running the "Q" through 63rd St., local in Queens to 71st. Yes, it means that in Queens the "F" is express and the "Q" is local, while in Manhattan the "Q" is express and the "F" is local. So what? Maybe that will balance the load a little in Queens."
I am glad someone else saw this beside me. For over sixty years, people counted on the E and F trains going through to 53rd street. Why change it now?
If the TA were to use the V and the Q runs along Broadway, make the V a pure local from 2nd Avenue to 179 Street via 63rd Street. Additionally, make the F a Super Express from an extended G terminal at Church Avenue, along 34 Street, and through to 179 Street. If the F isn't one of the most interminable rides as it is, then what line is? Why add what could be another ten minutes negotiating that God-forsaken, little-used 63rd Street Tube when people on the F Train are on it because they have someplace they need to be, and in a hurry? Give the local the less-preferential route and clip what could be 15 minutes or more off the F Train's terminal-to-terminal travel time.
If they run the Q over Sixth Avenue, make IT the 2nd Avenue-63rd street local to 179 Street, and again give the F full right of way over all shared trackage. Don't terminate the Q at 34th Street. Make it the Sixth Avenue Local to 2nd Avenue along with all Bronx-bound B and D Trains. Or, have either the B or the D terminate at that useless Grand Street station, if it must remain open. I'd just as soon have it closed until after the renovation. It isn't a transfer point like the Canal Street bridge approach station and isn't too far away from other subway lines that can pick up the traffic.
Does this hold water, like the 63rd Street tube itself?
Why do you say the Grand Street is Useless. Every time I have used it there were many people there going to Chinatown or the Lower East Side. Grand Street probably has more money going through it then most of the Local Stops on the Queens Lines(Tokens-Metrocard fares etc.)
I use Grand street often to get to Chinatown. It is much closer to the heart of bustling new Chinatown than Canal. Canal street is a 10 or 15 minute walk away from Bowery, and Canal is packed with crowds going to the cheapie stores. I hate walking on Canal. And the station is more deep down, and a harder climb out.
When the A/B tracks close, reducing service to a shuttle is so stupid. How hard could it be to turn the V at Grand? Can't they install a switch to turn trains? There's alot more people at Grand than 2nd avenue, doesn't the TA realize that?
Then again, the TA could care less about the Chinese people in Chinatown, rather, the rich jewish people in Queens are more important and get the better service, and the V serves them, not Grand street in Chinatown. Pure politics as usual. When will we ever learn!
Nobody seems to be talking about how this major change will affect riders in Chinatown and Brooklyn. Don't you think (the media) should. It's gonna be chaos when the bridge switch happens.
The area around 21st St-Queensbridge is mostly populated with black people (rich or poor, can't make conclusions but there are housing projects...). I went there a few times to transfer to a Q66 to Flushing. I'm not sure where in Queens have high concentrations of jewish people though I have seen one concentration around Main St at Kew Gardens Hills and Pomonok (saw Hebrew store signs from passing Q44/Q20).
It was chaos when the 63rd connector was and is being connected to the Queens Blvd IND. I just hope a switch will be installed closer to Grand St once this shuttle starts service.
The bridge flip and new W train was covered on the news tonight (sparingly though). It will be a mess for Brooklyn riders, they will have to use the Broadway line instead, and there will be no more 6th ave express (B,D,and Q).
I don't think Broadway (stations) are designed for the higher capacity of people. And for those poor people in Chinatown, who use the busy Grand street station will have to take the W or Q to Canal&Broadway, and climb out onto the already overcrowded streets, and 15 minutes out of their way. There is nothing at 2nd avenue, the TA has no brains for not terminating the V at Grand.
And I wonder how it will effect this portion of Chinatown. With less people in the area fruit markets and stores may close. Doesn't the TA realize it will be a great inconveniece not to have direct service to Grand street (only a shuttle), and people will lose money. People's livelihood is at stake.
The V should go to Grand street. Anywhere else is not only foolish, but downright mean.
[The V should go to Grand street. Anywhere else is not only foolish, but downright mean. ]
V can't go to Grand Street because of track configuration. Also, enough about "the poor people in Chinatown" Do you have any proof that to begin with they are poor....
Arti
As to Broadway. The Broadway line for 50 years had 5 lines running on it prior to 67, and the 6th Ave only had 2 plus one during rush hours. Broadway should handle it.
This John guy just keeps whining about Chinatown, as if this low rise area needs that much rapid transit anyway.
Arti
>>>"as if this low rise area needs that much rapid transit anyway".
Have you ever travelled there? I seriously doubt it. Any time I'm anywhere in lower Manhatttan remotely near Chinatown (or Little Italy which borders it) all I can think of is crowds of people, crowds of people, and truly overfilled platforms. And I am quite familiar with overfilled Queens lines and the Lexington Avenue line for comparison.
Of course, this situation is hardly unique for a neigborhood in NYC, but it is most definitely in need of transit services. And the N/R line's stop there hardly even counts as far as I'm concerned (the entire line is known for infrequent service).
And how it is a "low rise" area - tall buildings abound there. Please explain this so that we can all understand. This is quite a built up ( and old) neighbohood.
[Have you ever travelled there? ]
I have, although I lack any real desire to go there. As far as Grand St it never looked really busy, but again I'm a Lex commuter, so I guess nothing is.
[And how it is a "low rise" area - tall buildings abound there. ]
I mean compared to Upper West/East Side, tha population density is lower. Also if you lose the Grand St stop you still have F & M.
Arti
Oh, I'd doubt that the population density is lower. And it's also an extremely busy market and shopping area, weekend and Sundays included. I have numerous unpleasant memories of overcrowding both on the streets and platforms concerning this. It can take 10 minutes (literally) to walk one block because of all the people going about there shopping and other business.
You're right. The population density is high, plus thousands of Chinese immigrants who live in southern Brookly traditionally make the trek to Chinatown every day to buy food for the family meal. Grand St. must remain open, even if served by a shuttle.
They could also use Canal and Shop there.
How many people get off the subway on their way home from work to buy fruit? I could see if this were a highway rerouting and people would actually be prevented from seeing these businesses, it would be a concern, but we are talking about people passing through underground. Unless the overpowering fish smell at Grand Street is so enticing to some?
I see plenty of people carrying those red bags of fruit and fish entering the station (for a ride to Brooklyn) or upon leaving the station.
I am in Chinatown often, I guess most people aren't and don't understand how it works.
Asian people tend to shop at at Ethnic Mom and Pop shops, because the larger chains do not carry their type of food, vegis and seafood. I go thru this every week with my wife. We shop one day American and 1 day Asian.
I'm not trying to start another off-topic thread here; I just want to clarify my point. I don't doubt that a lot of people go to Chinatown to shop. I do occasionally, as well, though I usually take a bus. Asians who live in largely non-Asian areas who shop in Chinatown will probably still shop in Chinatown if there is no Asian center near them. Even if the V were to go to Grand Street, if these shoppers are coming from Brooklyn, they probably would not go to 34 St and transfer to the V. The fact is, the Manhattan Bridge tracks are closing for necessary repairs, and there will be no Brooklyn service via Chrystie Street. What I meant is that there most likely won't be business lost by the diversion of "pass-by" trips; those for whom Chinatown is a destination will still go to Chinatown, be it via shuttle train, bus, or other subway line.
LOL. The Broadway line can easily handle all the new service. It handled even more for decades prior to 1967. It did fine with 5 lines in 86-88.
Chris, that is what I have been saying. 5 lines on Bdwy
Excuse me; the 63rd St. connector will serve far more than "rich Jewish people!" The V will serve every ethnic group along its 7 1/2 mile route in Queens, including plenty of poor Jews, rich non-Jews, and even Chinese! And if you're so upset about riders in Brooklyn getting screwed because the TA is playing to the "rich Jews in Queens," keep in mind that the B serves Borough Park, the D serves Flatbush, Brighton Beach, and Sheepshead Bay, and the J, M, and Z, which lost service over the Williamsburgh Bridge a couple years ago, serves Williamsburgh! As much as I like to know who is filled with hate so I know who to avoid, I think it's better to keep the racial slurs to ourselves here...
It's more about irresponsible planning I guess. To me it is incomprehencable how the TA can just tell Grand street riders that they will have to take a shuttle or walk 15 minutes out of their way.
There's nothing at 2nd ave, that station is not very busy, compared to Grand street. I guess the TA pretends people don't exist.
[There's nothing at 2nd ave, that station is not very busy, compared to Grand street. I guess the TA pretends people don't exist. ]
It has been said here for about 1000 times that you can't use Grand street to turn trains around, your political agenda can't really change it! And by the way there is ample of bus service to connect to the 2nd Av station from "the bustling heart of Chinatown"
Arti
You meant they can't install a switch to turn trains around? Why?
It would cost some $20M and it's not in the capital plan.
Arti
I'd do it anyway. Making Grand St. a usable terminal would make everyone happy. The V could run there until the north side opens back up.
However, with the loss of access from the southern Brooklyn BMT, even this won't prevent the loss of business to Grand St. establishments.
From Brooklyn they would take the train to Bdwy Canal. That is where Chinatown is, Grand is still the Lower Eastside, or they can transfer at Bdwy Canal to the J/M/Z to Bowery or Essex St and walk. That worked for 50 years before Christie St opened.
Or they could walk NOT on Canal but on paralleling side streets.
Arti
And it would be in use for three years, with tons of other stations in easy walking distance.
$20 Million for a switch? Must be more than just a switch!
Take a look at MTAs web site under contracts section, that'll give you an idea what things cost for.
[$20 Million for a switch? Must be more than just a switch! ]
Of cource there's more than just a switch, trackbed, tunnel reconstruction, communication systems to control the switch etc.
Arti
Second Avenue was the closest stop to my last two apartments, and there are plenty of people who live, work, and go out on 1 Ave/Allen St. and Ave A/Essex St. between Stanton and 6th Streets. It's also a transfer point to the M9, M15, and and M21 buses, two of which serve eastern Chinatown. I agree that the station itself is a disaster; maybe its new role as a terminal (other than for occasional rush hour B trains) will improve that. The Grand Street station will probably get some much needed renovation, as well, with minimal disruption to customers, because the TA will be able to close off half the station (assuming the shuttle will operate on a single track). If the TA wanted to pretend people didn't exist, it wouldn't offer service, period.
Well I agree Grand street needs some work. More entrances would be nice (there's only one exit from platform level). Also the station is heavily used and shows it.
I'm not saying nobody lives near 2nd avenue, but I've seen both 2nd avenue and Grand in the afternoon and Grand is alot busier.
It's more heavily used because the south side is closed and access to Canal St. from the bridge is impossible. Grand St. would see a noticable dropoff if BOTH sides of the Manny B were open.
Congratulations John - you certainly are straightforward with all your considered opinions as to "the rich jewish people in Queens" who you say "get the better service."
You obviously don't use the subway lines in Queens very much. If you did - then even a mind as small as yours would realize that Queens line services on the E, F, G and R are nothing to brag about. Alot of people actually ride the line wrong direction back to 179th terminal to even be able to get on a train. Service is beyond packed. And that service is certainly no better than anything offered in Manhattan.
I think your real intention was to air your jew hating thoughts and see if you could gain some followers.
Most of us here are railfans or subway fans. I don't believe the folks who visit this forum expect to find jew hating rhetoric.
So if you want to blather on with your jew hating - take it some place else.
BTW - it's easy to hide who you are on this forum. I guess that's why you post your hate remarks here. Of course, a real man would wouldn't hide - -
John, if you want to do jew Hateing, bet you if a INS made a raid on the Grand St Station, 80 pct of the people there would be undocumentd people. It works both ways.and I am Jewish, married top a 3/4 Filipina 1/4 Chinese
I'm not a jew hater. I am just making the point that areas like Kew Gardens and Forest Hills that have high jewish population which happen to do well, have more political clout, than the chinese in Chinatown.
I never said anything bad about jewish people, but about the TA's poor planning. I never said Queens BLVD is a picnic either. I just find it incomprehencable that the TA can demote Grand street in such a severe way, even though it's packed almost all the time.
They'd never give Queens residents the shaft like that. Just think of all the outrage that would happen if they made the N a permanent shuttle from Queensboro Plaza to Astoria. It would never happen. But the chinese immigrants, as well as many other poorer minorities in NYC, are ignored by the media and the powers that be.
Queens residents get the shaft by having had the most population increase over 40 years of any borough in NYC and the least increase in subway service. The only additions to the subway were the extension of 7 service to Main St, the Queens Blvd line from 169 to 179th St (both a very, very long time ago, maybe I shouldn't even mention them), the Archer Av extension, and the 63rd St line now completed. The Main St station renovation, for $3.5 million more, could have been constructed in such a way as to allow further extensions of the 7 line (placing ADA elevators inside the entrance to Stern's). We have Julia Harrison, in part, to blame for that.
>>>We have Julia Harrison, in part, to blame for that. <<<
Who is she?
Peace,
ANDEE
Julia Harrison has represented the Flushing area on the City Council for eons (she's going on 78 years of age). She has accomplishments to her credit, but mass transit is not one of them. With her seniority, she was in a good position to push for rail improvements. Instead, she obstructed (even if passively, by not advocating)progress in her own district.
Well Queens is underserved by the subway, especially eastern sections. Many people pack buses to Flushing and Jamaica to get to the subway.
It was stupid to design the Flushing station in such a way that the 7 cannot be extended. Well at least they can extend the IND. I think that the F express tracks to 179st should be connected to an extension all the way down Hillside to the city line.
The other problem is that there aren't enough crossings, currently only 3 (will be 4 when the connector opens). This hasn't increased to keep up with population.
The "G" needs to go somewhere. I think a new river tunnel needs to be built. Perhaps a tunnel to replace the Manny B tracks, tied into some connection so that the G can run into Manhattan.
But any new projects are like pulling teeth, they are near impossible with all the red tape, NIMBY's, and lawyers. But if we just "got it done" it would be done.
If the G ran into Manhattan then what would the people going crosstown use? There are only two sections of the city that need more subway service; 2nd Avenue and eastern Queens.
Don't forget southeastern Brooklyn (East Flatbush, Flatlands, Manhattan Beach). They also have no subway service.
Manhattan Beach comes close enough.
It's closer from Kingsborough College to the Brighton Beach station than it is from Parts of Canarsie to the subway station there (say, Bayview Houses, Seaview Village, Paerdegat).
There are only two sections of the city that need more subway service; 2nd Avenue and eastern Queens.
The Javits Center?
The Javits Center does not NEED subway service. Not even close.
Explain the $1 billion+ price tag for the 7 line extension just for the Javits Center ALONE. What kind of daily ridership would you expect out of this new line? And be realistic.
What if the stadium is not erected?
True it will need it if a new stadium is erected but that stadium has as much of a chance of getting built as the 2nd Ave subway does. Build it when the stadium plans are given the go ahead and not before, otherwise you'll have another "tunnel to nowhere".
Staten Island?
True the R could connect to SI.
That part of the city could also use subway service. But I'd be shocked if it ever came about. Once Giuliani leaves office, SI will probably become the city's red-headed stepchild once again.
Yes, indeed. Queens only has (I)two (/I) large subway trunklines (the Queens Blvd and the FLushing line). The Astoria line (which I frequented in times past) is a short 6 station line, and the Jamaica (J,M, Z) only has short terminal segments present in Queens. Same for the A train.
Compare this to Brooklyn or the Bronx, each with its (great and certainly also needed) numerous lines, and the disparity is obvious.
Brooklyn (at least 7 lines): Jamaica line (J, Z,M), Canarsie, Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, West End, and IRT (Flatbush, Eastern Parkway) lines. All of these are major lines.
Bronx (4 major lines): IND Concourse, IRT DYre AVe./White Plains Road (I'll let it count as one), Westchester AVe (#6) and Woodlawn. And I am not including the segment of the 1/9 in the Bronx.
- cordially, turnstiles
P.S. It did not forget Staten Island, which has only one rail line.
Just think of all the outrage that would happen if they made the N a permanent shuttle from Queensboro Plaza to Astoria.
A permanent shuttle? Where's the permanent shuttle? The shuttle to Grand is only while the tracks it connects to on the bridge are closed.
Don't forget that until 1967 (i.e., when the area around Grand was a Jewish neighborhood) there was no station there at all. The Jews managed to get by without it. Not even a shuttle.
Incidentally, we spell 'Jew' and 'Jewish' with a capital J.
Congratulations John - you certainly are straightforward with all your considered opinions as to "the rich jewish people in Queens" who you say "get the better service."
Don't forget, we're talking about New York, where practically all political matters have an ethnic component.
The 'rich Jewish people' of Queens don't USE the subway; they use the DOT express buses from Bay Terrace, North Shore Towers, the Union Turnpike corridor through Jamaica Estates/Hollis Hills and even from Forest Hills, which is in a one-fare zone! They also use the Port Washington branch of the LIRR, and the main line from Kew Gardens and Forest Hills, even though it's far more expensive than the subway.
Then there's always your SUV.
The large working-class Jewish immigrant population that's settled in Rego Park/Forest Hills/Kew Gardens and DOES ride the Queens Boulevard corridor is going to suffer plenty just trying to figure all these changes when they're implemented.
In recent years past, Jewish leaders complained religious discrimination played a hand in the lengthy construction-necessitated skip-stop pattern on the Brighton line and the fact that the 'B', which serves the heart of Borough Park, was mostly the older Slant 40s. Of course, no one considered fringe Borough Park and the heavily Orthodox lower Ocean Parkway corridor were served by the 'F' and its newer, 'fancy' R-46s.
Others may say the Chinese population gets preferential treatment because so many use the '7' to Flushing (with its large Chinese/Asian presence) and the '7' is widely considered the system's best line in terms of service, frequency, etc.
Any ethnic/income spin can be used to support ones' theory if one looks hard enough.
And I forgot to mention that there is poor bus service in Chinatown, so people there don't have many options.
Perhaps when the closure happens, they will increase bus service in the area.
Queens riders always have the alternative of the express bus or LIRR, but in Chinatown services are few. Without B,D, or Q, Grand street riders will find themselves walking on already packed sidewalks on Canal, to the Broadway station. This will make the severe pedestrian gridlock in the vicinity of the Canal street station even worse.
The streets will be clogged. Perhaps they should just close off lanes just so people can get through. If you've been to Canal street you know what I mean.
The M103 is very irregular and doesn't run often enough on Bowery, and there's no bus down Grand (there should be).
I think that those little minivans in Chinatown are gonna be alot more popular once the bridge switch happens.
[The M103 is very irregular and doesn't run often enough on Bowery, and there's no bus down Grand (there should be). ]
M15 on Allen, M14 on Grand. Also J & M on Delancey and Bowery, F at Delancy an Essex. That kind of walk to those alternate Suway stations is commonplace in most of the East Side.
Arti
I've also walked the distance before from Bowery station to Grand St station. That's the closest alternative station. Unless they really want to take the Lex local or BWay service I don't see why they must walk through the pedestrian congestion through Canal when they could've just used the Bowery.
DELANCY ON THE F IS 2 BLOCKS NORTH AND 2 BLOCKS EAST.
2 blocks north you would reach the Bowery. Then about 5 smaller blocks to the east would you reach Delancy/Essex. That's not too far also. They can walk there (Del./Ess.) also if the frequency of the Nassau St line gets to them.
I knew it was only 2 blocks from Grand to Delancy, I forgot how Many blocks East and West.
Download the bus map from MTA website, this gives you a better idea where stations are geographically than the Subway map.
Arti
There used to be a bus on Grand -- the M8 -- but nobody rode it. Well, I once did, and I was the only passenger. So it was cancelled.
Didn't it run few times a day?
Arti
It ran a few times an hour. I think it was on 20-minute headways, but I'm not sure.
The 'rich Jewish people' of Queens don't USE the subway; they use the DOT express buses from Bay Terrace, North Shore Towers, the Union Turnpike corridor through Jamaica Estates/Hollis Hills and even from Forest Hills, which is in a one-fare zone! They also use the Port Washington branch of the LIRR, and the main line from Kew Gardens and Forest Hills, even though it's far more expensive than the subway.
The large working-class Jewish immigrant population that's settled in Rego Park/Forest Hills/Kew Gardens and DOES ride the Queens Boulevard corridor is going to suffer plenty just trying to figure all these changes when they're implemented.
From what I've observed, a substantial percentage of the LIRR's ridership at Forest Hills and Kew Gardens stations is Asian, Indian and to a lesser extent Hispanic.
Walk to another station if you don't want to ride the shuttle. Within a 15-minute walk of Grand you can reach all of the Manhattan trunk lines except the A/C/E, 1/2/3/9, and 7. Not many residential neighborhoods can boast such service.
And cut the racism. "The heart of bustling new Chinatown" was part of the Jewish Lower East Side when my mother grew up there.
"And cut the racism. 'The heart of bustling new Chinatown' was part of the Jewish Lower East Side when my mother grew up there.
I'm guessing your mother also grew up there sometime before 1967.
Main problem is walking along Canal street is no picnic. It is very crowded, and a traffic jam of people. And add all the new people walking down Canal when the bridge flip happens and there will be pedestrian gridlock. They need to widen sidewalks at the expense of the cars. Just another reason why cars for personal use should be banned from the city.
Main problem is walking along Canal street is no picnic. It is very crowded, and a traffic jam of people. And add all the new people walking down Canal when the bridge flip happens and there will be pedestrian gridlock. They need to widen sidewalks at the expense of the cars. Just another reason why cars for personal use should be banned from the city.
Many of the vehicles driving along Canal Street are just passing through Manhattan. Remember that Canal is the direct route between the Manhattan Bridge and the Lincoln Tunnel. If you look at the vehicles on Canal on any weekday, you'll see a very high percentage of commercial vehicles as opposed to passenger cars.
You are correct about the very slow walking speeds along Canal Street's sidewalks. Probably the only practical solution would be to limit the number of open-air storefronts, but that would be highly controversial as many Chinatown merchants depend on these businesses for their livelihoods.
You mean the Holland Tunnel, The Lincoln is at 40th
Too bad they couldn't build a tunnel for through traffic, then they could expand the sidewalks.
When the flip happens, while I'll occasionally use Canal on less crowded middays on weekdays, but most times I'll opt to add more time and take the 6th ave local (V or F) to Bway Lafeyette, then the shuttle to Grand.
Or I'll get off the 7 at GCT and have a sloooow M103 bus ride.
The crowds at Grand street are bad enough, especially in summer when it's hot and smelly, Canal street stinks much worse, and the crowds will be unbearable.
I'd rather get there later, than earlier and be so hot and tired I can't shop or walk around. I must avoid Canal street. Alot of these small storefronts, especially toward Broadway&Canal aren't even chinese, that whole area just has this cheap flea market kind of feel.
Too bad they couldn't build a tunnel for through traffic [on Canal Street], then they could expand the sidewalks.
Back in the 1950's or early 1960's, there was an idea for a Trans-Manhattan Expressway that indeed would have taken most of the through traffic off Canal Street. It also would have destroyed most of Soho*, and eventually died in the face of heavy community opposition.
You can find more information at Steve Anderson's site.
* = in fairness to the Expressway's proponents, Soho at the time was a rather run-down manufacturing and commercial area, nothing at all what it's like today. Destroying it therefore was not a totally outrageous idea as it would be now.
The highway should still be built.
We've come a long way, and we can build an unobtrusive looking highway with buildings beneath it. We can save the facades of the landmarked buildings and build tasteful overpasses that match the buildings over the cross streets.
So walk along Grand. Or walk to the Bowery. Or walk to Delancey/Essex. Or walk to East Broadway. Or live with the crowds.
No, I'm sorry, I forgot. The Transit Authority is to provide you with a personal subway station at your door, to be paid for by those rich Jews in Queens. (The fact that those Jews who are rich worked hard to get there is beside the point.)
Neighborhoods always change. For example, Forest Hills during the time of the Dual Contracts was a notably WASPish neigborhood (with numerous ads for apartments prominently advertising their distance from the city), something that could not be said of it today. Dislike of the city (meaning Manhattan and its then undesirable Catholic, Jewish, and certain other new European immigrants of the time) strongly appealed to certain people in NYC at that time (as it does to some today). There is nothing wrong with neighborhoods changing; it often can be a sign of progress.
- cordially, turnstiles
Of course, and I have nothing against that. But it takes a lot of chutzpah to blame the temporary loss of service to Grand on the Jews, when that same neighborhood, when occupied by the Jews, didn't even have a station at Grand.
[Then again, the TA could care less about the Chinese people in Chinatown, rather, the rich jewish people in Queens are more important and get the better service, and the V serves them, not Grand street in Chinatown. Pure politics as usual. When will we ever learn!]
When will YOU ever learn? Bigotry is not acceptable, anytime, anywhere, anyplace! Maybe you should walk over to Canal and take a ride on the R train up to Queens. Many Asian people live in Elmhurst, which is on the R line . . . and in QUEENS! I know because I've been there and many Asian kids went to my high school and Elmhurst is where many of them lived. The V train will be going through Elmhurst and therfore many Asian people WILL benefit from its service.
Once again, you are dividing people in your postings and are up to your old Commie tricks again and I know what I need to do. It's the Killfile for you! Oh by the way, I happen to be Jewish and I don't like your extremely nasty and ignorant comments about my people (which are shared by Stalin, Hitler and the KKK). Oh and I live in Williamsbridge by the #2 line IN THE BRONX, which is by no means a rich area!
On the map, Grand Street looks like just another of those "stop for a stop's sake" stops we all hate. I wouldn't call mine an accurate sample, but on the few times I have ridden the D or Q trains, at widely varying times of day and week, it didn't seem that the station circulated much traffic into and out of the trains. But I will accept your assessment that it is a busy stop.
The point another poster made that Grand does serve more traffic than Second Avenue does make sense, but Grand Street is already shoehorned in such that how can it be made into any workable terminal station with frequent turns-around (do you call these "relays?")?
The reason for making 2nd Avenue the terminus was because it is a four-track station with greater flexibility and capacity. I highly doubt that the TA was deliberately trying to shaft an ethnic population for the benefit of another. That is grasping at straws, and makes me wonder what the REAL purpose of this board is -- Railroad engineering or social engineering -- as this is not my first run-in with the group vis-a-vis our social, political, or cultural opinions. In fact, neither social, political, nor cultural considerations were EVER made in my original post on this topic. How does everyone else see some non-railroad motives in my posts when all I am presenting is railroad-related text?
#1 Brighton Exp Bob said, "Grand Street probably has more money going through it then most of the Local Stops on the Queens Lines(Tokens-Metrocard fares etc.)" Maybe, but Grand Street is served by three different branch lines (two of which are through-expresses), and is located conveniently close to all Manhattan business districts, while the Queens lines are served by the painfully slow and infrequent if not nonexistent G and R trains. What incentive do Queens Blvd riders have to ride the subways instead of the plentiful express buses or other alternatives, whatever they may be?
Also, Grand Street is a full-time destination/origin station from all points in the city. The traffic on the Queens lines mainly embarks in the AM, and slides out the exit in the PM, and is otherwise desolate. It is unfair to gauge the traffic between a string of commutation stops and a hub of activity radiating to and from all points, just the same as it is unfair to gauge the activity of a beehive with respect to the surrounding flowers. They are both important in their own right, but it is easier to relocate or disband a central "hive" temporarily than to relocate or otherwise accommodate a field of scattered flowers.
Grand St. is one of the busiest stops on the lower east side, and it's a vital station for the chinese population of southern brooklyn who travel to chinatown. A large percentage of this crowding will move to Canal St. when the flip occurs.
It IS a very busy station.
(Grand St. is one of the busiest stops on the lower east side, and it's a vital station for the chinese population of southern
brooklyn who travel to chinatown. A large percentage of this crowding will move to Canal St. when the flip occurs.)
The Chinese community in Sunset Park grew up when the N was an express via bridge, with a short commute to 8th Avenue -- Canal, Pacific, 36th, 59th, 8th Avenue.
Since the current service pattern was established, more Chinese have moved to Bensonhurst on the B line, which now is a better ride to Chinatown.
With 30 tph at Canal and just a shuttle at Grand, I'd expect almost everyone (except the homeless) to use Canal. Grand should be closed during the construction on the A/B tracks of the Manhattan Bridge. Perhaps they could spruce up the station.
Don't forget that there are apartment buildings right next to the Grand St. station. They can't move and need the station open, even if it's just served by a shuttle.
What they should have done is built the connection to Bowery, and Grand St. passengers could still use their entrance, and then take the Nassau lines one stop one direction for 6th Av. access at Essex, and go one stop the other way for Bridge service at Canal. This would have brought revenue to the desolate Bowery station.
I think if those Grand St. people wants to use the Bowery station they could've just walk there from the street, instead of going there via a transfer passage underground.
The Essex/Delancy transfer is already overcrowded. Adding more wont help.
Believe it or not, The Bowery station isn't as desolate as it used to be. Chinatown's ever growing borders have made this station much busier than I've ever seen it over the last 12 months. When the rehab is complete, it'll probably draw even more people.
They'll move to Canal St, the shuttle train, the M-15 and B-51 buses. They have more options than Roosevelt Island and Queensbridge when they were stuck with a shuttle, or Williamsburgh during the bridge construction, when all they had was the B-59. I agree Grand St. should be the terminal, but it probably isn't feasible.
I can't understand why when the built the Chrystie street connection years ago that they could have the option of IND trains from 6th ave running on the south side of the Manhattan bridge, whether for long term or short term disruption. This is a very important line, serving the heart of Chinatown.
The many people who use Grand street would've probably been able to solve this problem, easier than the TA. If i was in charge of the TA, years ago I would've been the problem coming and ordered an immediate solution, whether installing a connection from Chrystie to the H tracks, or building a new tunnel. And we would worry about money later. The pockets of the rich are always deep, and with the might of the military we could've gotten it done.
I proposed a temporary track connection from the south side tracks to the Grand St station, but I was told that it was impossible to do.
Unfortunately the lower roadway is in the way. Of course if I was in charge we'd just close the lower roadway and connect both sides.
Unfortunately, car drivers have alot more say than us transit riders, so we're screwed.
I'm going to survey some pols I know to see what might be possible here. The worst that could happen is I get laughed out of someone's office.
How would trucks get into Manhattan then?
Or would you rather an iron curtain descend around the island?
"with the might of the military we could've gotten it done"
Huh?! The many excellent engineers that have come over the years from the Army Corps of Engineers into private practice notwithstanding, the Army isn't in the business of designing or building subways.
Well, they're expert trench diggers. That's a start ...
The military would be there to stop and immediately arrest those individuals who oppose the project and try to disrupt contruction.
[The military would be there to stop and immediately arrest those individuals who oppose the project and try to disrupt contruction. ]
Will they be shot immediately or tortured first to reveal others who oppose the construction?
Arti
Slapped with lead-lined gloves.
Or maybe sent to reeducation camps. Actually if they were to send everyone to these camps (like Khmer Rouge did)there would be no need for that construction to begin with:-)
Arti
Yes there would, John's limousine would need to go somewhere?
I also feel that there will be some sort of uproar from the Brooklyn side. The number of passengers riding the "F" from Brooklyn to the 53rd Street stations (5th Avenue and Lexington Avenue) is not insignificant. This move will force these riders to change from the "F" to a "V" (or maybe an "E") train somewhere along 6th Avenue to reach their destination ... a change that currently doesn't need to be made! Perhaps some additional thought is required here!
Screwing southern BMT/IND riders for the sake of conveinence of northern BMT/IND riders is nothing new. How did they explain to Culver riders in 1967 that their train was now the F instead of the D, even though absolutley no difference in service existed?
People will adjust. F riders can be thankful that their train doesn't run through Dekalb Ave. Those other riders will have to make even bigger adjustments next August.
The F Riders change change to the E at W 4th or the Q-Local at 34th
I think they should have the V going through 63rd street with the F, since I cannot understand having only one line running through 63rd street. Then you could put more E's through 53rd street.
You have outlined several of the reasons why I believe that having 3 Queens Blvd. expresses, E, F, and Q, with 12 tph (via 53rd), 9 tph (via 53rd), and 9 (via 63rd) tph, respectively, with V (via 63rd) and R (via 60th) providing local service, would be preferable to the current plan.
Bill, I'm impressed with the logic of your post. I have only one thought though. I think the real pounding will take place at Continental Avenue.
About a year ago I had proposed that instead of 14 V trains, add 9 thains to the F and 6 to the R. Rather than creating a new service, the F & R alternate between 53rd St and 63rd St, or 60th St. and 63rd St. respectively. Using the arrangement for the F & the R diamond via 63rd St. and F & R circle through the normal route. This will give F riders a choice. It will give R riders a choice and will also reduce traffic through the 60th St. tunnel which will be handling the R, the N and the W. While some condfusion might be anticipated initially, people will adjust just as fast as to the V train. (thoughts?)
About a year ago I had proposed that instead of 14 V trains, add 9 thains to the F and 6 to the R.
Let's see. There are currently 27 tph E's and F's running between Continental and Queens Plaza. This will become 36 tph by adding 9 trains to the F. This is within the signal system's design capability. They used to run 34 tph in the mid 1950's.
My question is why does NYCT have to spend $645 million for new construction if it has had the capability to add 9 more trains all along?
Stupidity. And safety concerns. Trains cannot run as close to each other as they could in the 1950's. Keying red signals was commonplace then. Today, you need special permission to do it.
Keying red signals was commonplace then.
No it wasn't nor was it necessary to maintain those schedules.
What was more commonplace back then were the number of available cars.
Keying red signals was more commonplace back then. Even just 10 years ago trains regularly keyed by red signals. After a few collisions, the practice was banned. It's effect of track capacity is debatable.
However, your point about more cars being available at the time is absolutley correct. Many lines could be increased today.....if more cars were available.
Adding 9 trains to the F does not add 9 trains per hour to the current traffic. It's roughly 3 TPH by my calculations. My point was building on Bill's hypothesis that there would be massive swapping of trains at Roosevelt Avenue, my contention was that this could be avoided if the F trains alternated routes rather than creating a new service. As to the $645 million - I can't answer that since the original concept arose in the 60s. However, it is a reality today. The question is how best to make use of the new route.
I clearly misunderstood your proposal. Your clarification does raise another point.
I thought the object of the Queens Connector was to provide more service for the Queens Blvd lines. I would have assumed that the most economical way to do this (in terms of number of trains used) would have been to run some short routes. I would estimate that a local running between Forest Hills and 2nd Ave would have a running time of 40 minutes. I would assume that could translate to a sustained headway of 7 minutes for 14 trains.
I think the headway would be quite a bit longer with your proposal. If you had planned to turn the added F's around at 2nd Ave and the added R's at Canal or Whitehall then your proposal is almost equivalent to that of NYCT.
What they really have to do, in my opinion, is
1) Have the QB express bypass 71st & Roosevelt during rush hours.
2) Use those express tracks East of Contintental.
3) Divert the F Express through 63rd Street. Cut the F to 14 tph, the same as from Brooklyn, and jack up the E as high as it will go.
With the trains running non-stop the whole length of the QB express, to a merge-diverge to 63rd Street, one should be able to jack up the TPH on the line. The stations and the slow merge at 53rd and 6th keep the lid on now.
Then run a Broadway train through to Continental as the extra local, using the switch at 63rd and Lex.
The real purpose of the 63rd. St. connector was to provide a path for a new route into Manhattan without increasing headways on existing routes. Replacing the G with the V does this.
Much too sensible. They'll never do it.
I think your idea is a good one, but I don't think the passengers would, as simple as it is, be able to grasp the idea of the difference between a circle F/R or a diamond F/R in regard to keeping straight in their heads as to which particular interval uses which tube. We're not talking about a local/express arrangement here and if a person gets on the wrong interval, they may wind up 10 blocks out of their way. I suppose it wouldn't be much of a problem to reprogram side signs of R46 cars to display "via 63rd St." or "via 53rd St.", but would it be possible to put a circle or diamond around a route letter in a side sign? If R trains would alternate ways out of Manhattan, the passengers at Lex/59 in the PM rush would start complaining about an uneven ratio of R's to N's (and W's would complicate matters) since the ratio would be OK only up to 57/7, but not at Fifth Ave./60th St. and Lex/59. Also in the non rush with R & F trains alternating via 53rd St & via 63rd St., you now have double midday & evening R & F headways for the few stations the two routes are seperated. Initially for the first few years while passengers get used to the new alternate route to Sixth Ave. and an IRT transfer at 63rd/Lex an impossibility, I don't think too many trains will be needed thru the new route. The heavy ridership will continue thru 53rd St. for quite awhile.
was there trackwork being performed last night that caused a delay or actual inability to load the message board?... or was there a sick poster aboard, who was ill from all the hostility floating around or perhaps from my sorry attempts at humor?... perhaps the latter, as i think i just heard someone retching right now... or has all the talk about the r-142's caused a sympathetic breakdown in the message board operation?... well anyway, things seem back to normal, or what at least passes for normal...
There was problem with the pipline between here and the rest of the net, I'm assuming. I had problems with other parts of the site as well.
-Hank
According to an e-mail from Dave Pirmann, there was some kind of problem "upstream from us" which has been causing a serious slowdown from Philadelphia to just about anywhere on the internet.
I'm in Baltimore and the site would not load last night about 11:48 PM.
I had it here in Hawaii also. But every thing here is slow in Maui, that is why Xmas I am gone. Here Today Gone from Maui to Virginia.
Good Luck to you on your new adventures in VA
Peace,
ANDEE
I think there had been a GO on the Expresss at www.nycsubway.org last night that caused problems for web-commuters....:-)
BMTman
Click Here
Just make sure the roll signs and bullders plates are salvaged.
Bill "Newkirk"
How hard does the pick up shoe on a car press aganist the third rail? Since there would most likely be a lot of friction between the shoe and the rail, does the rail wear down? If so, how often do third rails get replaced? My guess is that it just barely skims the rail, becuase you don't really hear any scrapping coming from there. And that would mean the third rail doesn't wear down that fast, so replacing it is not a concern. Am I right?
The shoe presses down or up on the 3rd rail fairly forcefully. Look at the end of a 3rd rail segment where there's a little ramp. You can see by where the skuff marks start exactly how much the shoe is displaced from normal. The rails do wear down, but the shoes are made out of a soft steel. This way the shoes wear down much quicker than the rail (unlike if the shoes were made of tungsten or something) and the shoes can be easliy replaced.
Ahh, yes, I didn't think of that. Soft shoes on a hard rail, makes complete sense. I'm aware of the little ramps you speak of, but I've never noticed the scuff marks on them. Guess I'll look a little closer next time. But it does make sense that the shoe be pressed down forcefully, becuase the train might sway or bounce, and we would't want all those electrical arcs sparking all the time. However, I think the sparks look pretty cool, especially outside at night. Another thing that is cool, I noticed this in NYC as well, that waiting on the platform, sometmes there would be a continuous current traveling between the third rail and the track bed. It's a cool looking effect, like a tiny lighting bolt lasting several seconds.
But it does make sense that the shoe be pressed down forcefully, becuase the train might sway or bounce, and we would't want all those electrical arcs sparking all the time. However, I think the sparks look pretty cool, especially outside at night.
You should visit Chicago sometime. The third rail shoes on CTA trains (except for the 2200's) are held down only by gravity. This, combined with the fact that CTA trains do plenty of swaying and bouncing on some of the older sections of the el, produces some incredible arcing action. I've seen far more arcing on CTA trains than on any other system. It's especially spectacular after a good rain or snowfall.
Another thing that is cool, I noticed this in NYC as well, that waiting on the platform, sometmes there would be a continuous current traveling between the third rail and the track bed. It's a cool looking effect, like a tiny lighting bolt lasting several seconds.
I've never noticed this before, but it sounds pretty cool. Guess I'll have to pay closer attention next time. Any locations where this is particularly evident?
-- David
Chicago, IL
I honestly can't tell you what stations I've seen this at, but they were all underground ones. The Lex IRT I believe was the time I saw it in NYC. It's a rare thing for me to see this, maybe 3 or 4 times all together. It's not something that would be easily noticed, it doesn't make any sound, and it's not bright. If I had to compare it to something else, it would be like one of those plasma balls.
Ok. Here's a stupid question, to augment Rob's. Since the 3rd rail and shoe are both metal, and friction between metal and metal usually produces sparks, why no sparks as the shoe drags along the 3rd rail? (It's been a loooong time since I was in Physics class....)
That's a great question.
A power she which does not consistently contact the third rail should cause arcing. The MBTA's Red Line is infamous for that (I'm referring to cars built by Pullman-Standard, not the new ones built by Bombardier). The shower of sparks from all along those trains is quite impressive. Undoubtedly they also help cause track fires. In one case, an oncoming Red Line train in Cambridge was heralded by a cloud of smoke.
We need to look up your original question, however.
The area on the 3rd rail shoe that contacts the 3rd rail is covered with graphite, and graphite does not wear out as much as the metal itself, plus graphite is a good conductor (as I mean electrical, not railroad). The shoe on the pantograph of regional rail cars, electric locomotives, and modern light-rail vehicles, and the shoe on the harp-and-shoe type of trolley pulley (?) is made of graphite as well, and they last twice as long as the traditional pulley. So that is why you don't see as many sparks as back in the old days.
Why are they scaling back the G line? We need more interborough service, not less! Why should I have to go through Manhatttan to get from Sunnyside to Park Slope? A new Queens-Brooklyn line would lessen the crowding in Manhattan.
If the G were to continue to operate to Forest Hills after the 63rd St connector opens, then the Queens Blvd. corridor would become a parking lot. The vast majority of people travel to/from Manhattan and thus makes the G a low priority line.
You will simply have to take the new V local to 23/Ely and then transfer to the G to continue your trip.
And a new Queens-Brooklyn crosstown line would be a total waste of money and would not alleviate crowding. The G between Court Square and Smith-9 Sts is a very lightly used line as it is. Who would want to travel to Brooklyn just to go to Manhattan? You're complaining yourself about travelling via a third borough, why do you think that other people would want to do the same? The TA is doing the right thing by scaling back G service and creating additional Manhattan V service.
The question is why did the IND planners even design this line.
Arti
It was meant to feed east/west IND lines headed for Manhattan. If the second system was completed as planned, the G (GG) line would've served a much more useful purpose.
Also to screw the old BRT Lexington El, which ran just a few blocks from it
Don't blame the TA for this one. Blame the long since retired public officials who envisioned a new line for Queens, not just an alternate way to get from Sixth Ave. to the Queens Blvd. IND.
I'm not blaiming TA, there was no TA back then, I questioned IND.
Arti
>>>Blame the long since retired public officials ....<<<
Try chaning that to long since DEAD public officials
Peace,
ANDEE
Capacity in Queens is needed for more Manhattan-bound service. With the x-fer at Court Square to the 53rd. St lines, going thru Manhattan to get to Park Slope is not necessary.
I think what is needed is one of those moving airport walkways at the Court Square transfer passage. I know I would complain about the long walk there.
Other options exist (L at Metropolitan Ave, A/C at Hoyt-Schermerhorn). I'd like to see an enclosed tunnel connecting the J/M at Lorimer to the G at Brodway built.
It is impossible to build a connection here, because of the TA storeroom beneath the intersection, and the buildings at street level
Is this storeroom irreplacable? What about the neighboring buildings makes the construction impossible?
They'll be lucky to have enough cars to operate the V line let alone to continue the G as is. I would be shocked if one trainset of R143's would be running when V service commences. It was well known long long ago that the G would be cut back to Court Sq. once the extension opened. Arguing this now is a moot point.
The G will be reduced to four cars. This will allow about half of the current R46 fleet assigned to the G to be reassigned. Still, it's not enough cars to supply the V line. Perhaps the bridge flip service plan frees up more cars than today's service plan needs.
I do wish Queens-Brooklyn service were better, and this is a setback, albeit an arguably necessary one for the system as a whole.
If it is possible with the limited supply of rolling stock, I'd rather the G were cut back only to 46th St and Broadway, taking advantage of the turnaround just shy of Northern Blvd. Then it would at least have an easy, direct connection to most of the Queens Blvd line.
Another thing they can do to help the cause of interborough travel is create some more transfers. You know, to go from 179th in Queens to many parts of Brooklyn is complex, requiring two, three, or even four transfers. If more were available between nearby stations in inner parts of Brooklyn and Queens, this would be immeasurably easier.
:-)Andrew
In turning a G train at 46th St./Northern Blvd., you would have to make sure all passengers are firstly off the train, then make a main line reverse move tie-ing up the rest of the railroad because of the time it takes you to turn around. Can't change crews there due to no facilties. Can't do it at Fourth Ave. either. Hope the crew members have large bladders because to guys have to pee sometime!
OK. Point taken.
:-)Andrew
Because every train that runs from Queens Boulevard directly to Brooklyn is one train that isn't running from Queens Boulevard to Manhattan. At this time, that's where additional service is warranted.
MARTA appointed a new General Manager yesterday, Nathaniel Ford. The article says he's held managment positions for BART and NYCT and grew up in NYC. Does anyone know this guy or his job performance? I hope he turns out to be a great GM and gets MARTA to expand.
Nat Ford was the Chief Transportation Officer for Rapid Transit Operations(subways) for the NYCTA.
This now means that Kevin O'Connell now has a 1 in 3 chance of becoming CTO. It could become one of the scariest appointments for subway employees since Paul Oversier and former pres. David Gunn.
I would think the Nat Ford you are thinking of is not the one! I think it may be his son. Nat Sr., I think, is a short way from retirement. Nat Jr. left for BART over 10 years ago along with TD Crystal Odom, daughter of a long since retired ATD from Euclid Ave.
I certainly hope that you're right as I would hate to see O'Connell in charge. I can see a whole bunch of little pet projects of his to drive all the workers nuts. There is something seriously wrong with that man.
Sorry,
I believe the Nat Ford Rob From Atlanta is referring to is actually the CTO of NYCT's son. He had already had a very high post in MARTA. I don't think Nat Ford Sr. is going any time soon...
-Harry
I didn't know there was a Ford Sr. and a Jr. It must be the Jr. becuase the article said that he has been with MARTA for over 3 years. Also, he's only 39. I hope he brings in more riders to MARTA and help to try to expand the system.
N. Ford Sr. is the Cheif Transportation Officer.
Last year F. Sallah went to Atlanta as the Cheif Mechanical Officer. He's back and running a maintenance facility here.
This was an in house promotion. Nat Ford Jr. was already with MARTA as a vice president
A brunette is standing on some train tracks, jumping from rail to rail, saying "21" "21" "21"
A Blonde walks up, sees her and decides to join her. She also starts jumping from rail to rail, saying "21" "21" "21" Suddenly, the brunette hears a train whistle and jumps off the tracks just as the Blonde is splattered all over the place. The Brunette goes back to jumping from rail to rail , counting "22" "22" "22"
Q: How can you tell a blonde from a redbird?
A: Redbirds have bulkheads that actually work.
i thought we had all agreed not to do any more ethnic jokes here.
Blond is not an ethnic joke.
..Thank You Jeffrey!
Special Retro Edition, How the smart ass punk Trainmaster told CSX to
stuff it, and not get fired.
>
> During my days as a Terminal Trainmaser at IHB's Blue Island Yard,I was forced to endure numerous bad judgement calls by those that ranked far above me. These powers that be opened an auto switching facility at the Gibson West End Yard. They later expanded it to handle more trains in and out of this facility. Unfortuantely, they were seriously underbuilt and had
nowhere near the capacity to handle the volume of business they had set themselves up for. So, to alleviate the congestion at Gibson, they would send some of the auto trains to be switched to Blue Island instead. We would yard them
in the "west yard" which was located on the north side of the north
receiving and departure yard.
>
> The west yard was normally used to set outbound trains heading west and also for storage of cars for Corn Products Corporation. This was not an auto switching yard. But little did they care what we thought. We were instructed to make this work. They couldn't, so they expected us to bail them out of the mess they created. This must be the "delegation of duties" they taught us in college business management classes. By using the west yard to
switc> autos, we now lost valuable space to set outbound manifest trains. This period I am discussing was also a period when we were already plugged at Blue. All kinds of trains were coming in, but nobody was giving us crews
to take trains out. I had two CP 504 trains ready to depart. There were two GTW 468 type trains to depart. No crews were forthcoming though. There were other trains to leave as well and again, no crews.
>
> I should explain about the CP trains; these are CP haulage trains operated across CSX's former Pere Marquette line. They are staffed with CSX crews even though they are CP trains. CSX placed all kinds of restrictions on them as did CP Rail.They could not be longer than 7000 feet long including the power as the longest sidings on CSX were 7000 feet in length. A train with only two SD40 type units was restricted to 5200 tons. a train with three units was restricted to 7000 tons. This was so they could pull them up through the Detroit River tunnel grades. So, we couldn't load these trains down to get the cars out of the yard.
>
> I have a yard that is completely plugged. All the inbound and outbound tracks are stuffed full of cars to hump from inbound trains, or outbound trains with no crews. My west yard is stuffed full of autos being switched, to be switched, or awaiting crews for outbound trains. CSX won't give me a crew for a 504 train. I have two tracks full of cars for CSX proper that they are refusing as Barr Yard is plugged as well. I have trains coming
from every direction and nowhere to put them. I have almost 1000 cars in the hump now. 1200 cars is the total saturation point in the hump, commonly referred to as "the garden." Thing are rapidly going to hell in a handbag. Then, to make matters worse, the Assistant Manager of Train Operations (also
referred to as "the desk" or "the back room") calls and tells me that CSX is telling him they have a CP 537 train coming for us. I have already taken a CP 505 in this day and they are telling me they have no crews to give me for a 504. Great. This particular guy is Bud, a pretty good guy to work with. Key phrase, work with. He works and plays well with others.
>
> What to do in this situation? I calmly tell Bud at the desk that I am refusing the train. I instruct him to tell CSX if they won't give me any crews for 504, they don't get to bring in any other trains today. He laughs and asks what I was smoking and if he could have some too. We discuss the rapidly deteriorating situation at Blue and how CSX is screwing us (not
the exact terminology we really used) nine ways from Sunday. He agrees with me and decides to join me in my court here. A unified front! Well, unified middle anyway. He asks by who's authority should I show this decision? I tell him "mine." He goes back and informs CSX operations that we are refusing the train until they give us a crew for one of the outbound 504 trains.
>
> Let the games begin!
>
> About ten minutes later, I get a phone call from the CSX Chief Dispatcher from the Pere Marquette side. He informs me that I have to take the train. I tell him I do not and have no intention of doing so until they give me a crew or two to move some of the trains I have here first. He calls me some sort of terrible name akin to excrement and hangs up.
>
> About twenty minutes after that, some Corridor Manager from Jacksonville calls. He tells me I cannot refuse to take a CP train. I tell him he is wrong. He too calls me some bad name and hangs up. Then, I get a call from Montreal and CP wanting to know why I wont take their train. I fill this guy in our situation and how CSX won't give me any crews to handle his trains. He says he will go to work on that immediately. A few minutes later, the
CSX Corridor Manager calls me back telling me that my sanity must be a bit skewed. I tell him if he gives me a crew for a 504 train, I'll be able to handle 537 after I get 504 out, not a moment sooner. He goes ballistic and again calls me all sorts of names bringing family heritage into it. I hang up on him.
>
> But wait, there's more! About fifteen minutes after that, I get a call from the General Manager of Transportation for the entire CSX system in Jacksonville. He starts of the conversation with something to the effect
of "listen you smart ass punk". I hung up on him. He calls right back and starts again. I hang up again. Then, Bud at the desk calls. He tells me of threats on his life, assaults on his mother and family and other terrible acts of aggression CSX is planning if we don't take 537. I tell him to be tough and hope that his mother has lead a full and rewarding life. He
laughs but remains steadfast loyal to the cause. Ya, that's what this has become,
a cause. Shortly thereafter, The CSX GM calls again. His first words are to the effect of "don't you hang up on me again you asshole!" Click.
Another CSX official calls. He starts into a tirade about how I'm going to screw up their operations. I inform him that they have really destroyed ours so I guess turnabout is fair play. I again tell him that if I get a crew for 504, they will get 537 in, plain and simple. He calms a bit and says he'll see what he can do.
>
> The GM calls back again, a little calmer this time. The prozac must be kicking in. He explains that they cannot hold the train on CSX property. We must take the train. I inform him that I have no place to park the train. He suggests I "stick it in some siding somewhere." I have to restrain my self from telling him where I think he should stick it. I inform him there is
no siding anywhere between CP Cal Park where the train exits CSX rails for IHB rails and Blue Island. He insists that there is somewhere to hold it. I tell him there is, on CSX property. He gets rather upset with this comment and begins to get mad again. He orders me to take the train. He informs me
that he has much more rank than I do. I remind him that I do not work for CSX, I work for a Conrail subsidiary and he is not my boss and cannot order me to do anything on my property. He again calls me a bad name and again, I hang up.
> Another call from Bud at the desk with threats on his life and now my life too. I told him to tell the CSX folks that I am not scared as I have Sicilian heritage and can make a couple of phone calls too. He laughs and remains ever loyal to the cause. A good man that Bud.
> Another call from CSX wanting to know if they give me a crew for 504, will I really take 537? I tell them yes. They say okay, we'll give you a crew. I tell him that when 504's crew arrives and calls to check in, we'll turn 537 loose. I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. He gets mad and starts screaming. Click.
>
Those CSX folks are sure rather high strung. All they seem to have for
communication skills is screams and threats. Certainly not good people
skills. I wonder if this is what they teach them in Jacksonville? And here I thought Florida was more on the laid back side.
> Another call, this time from my big boss, the General Superintendant. He tells me he is at the golf course and gets all kinds of pages from Montreal and Jacksonville. It seems that some smart ass punk Trainmaster is attempting to tell the great CSX how to run their railroad. He laughs when
I tell him "someone has to as they don't seem to be able to do it on their own." He is very calm, almost joking as he asks exactly what is going on. I fill him in on the entire saga. He laughs and says what I did was a good idea, but............... in the future, if I do something like this again, please let him know
about it first. This way he will know exactly what is going on when everybody that is anybody from CSX and CP calls him screaming and yelling. He'll be abot to explain it to them. I wasn't in trouble! He supported the cause! One of
the few times I ever got support from senior managment. Chalk one up for the punk Trainmaster!
> The Corridor Manager calls back a few minutes later and informs me that we will have a crew for 504 at 1800 Chicago time. Cool! I inform him that when I talk to the crew and get them on their train to start doubling up, Iwill release 537. He begrudgingly goes along with this plan. He keeps asking me if I will really ake the train. I reassure him that I will. He seems greatly relieved, almost at peace.
> I call the East Yardmaster and inform him that when 504's Conductor calls, have him call me as well without fail.
> About 1845, I get a call from 504's Conductor. He tells me the yardy has given him his doubling instructions, he has the clerk getting his paper work together and is now calling me as instructed. CSX is very slick. They will send a crew over for a train, then contact them and instruct the crew to
get into a cab and head somewhere else instead. They were notorious for this. I inform him that under no circumstances is he to leave this yard without being on that train. If he is contacted by CSX telling him to leave, he is to contact me immediately and under no circumstances, will he leave the yard in a cab. Period! He acknowledges these instructions.
> Shortly after I talked to 504's Conductor, a CSX Trainmaster from Barr calls and wants to know if 504's crew is here. I tell him they are and there will be no way they leave here without this train. He agrees and just wants to know if we will be taking 537 soon. I tell him yes. I aksed him if Jacksonville has him doing their dirty work. He laughs and says he has heard from people that he never knew existed before this affair started.
> When they get tied onto their train and start to pull out to double up, I call the desk and tell Bud to turn 537 loose. Some other CSX person calls wanting to know if 537 is being turned loose and it 504 is doubling up. I tell him yes and remind him that this wasn't really that difficult. He mumbled something about a sexual act I should perform on myself and hung up.
> 537 met 504 at School Street just east of the yard. 537 pulled his train into the two tracks that 504 vacated. I love it when a plan falls into place.
Trainmaster 1, CSX 0.
And so it goes.
Tuch
yeah--want more laughs? go to CSX website go to performance measures. See if you can imagine why some cars spend over 36 hours in a yard? Then remember that CEO John Smow supported Newtie in the budget waes and favored welfare cuts, but wants gov't money for extra tracks for commutter trains--because his RR is "at capacity, with time sensitive freight".
What a story!
The interesting thing is that if everyone had put as much effort into solving the basic problem (and it was solvable) as they did into finding ways to verbally abuse our storyteller, there would have been no story to post here.
"Its the lazy man who does the most work". Did you read the last Hot Times I posted? The one w/ the exploding turbo-charger? That one's just as funny. I will continue to post more and although they may not be as funny as the last two they are very informative and I usually end up rolling on the floor.
Could you possibly email me the one about the exploding turbocharger? I didn't have the change to read it.
talgo79@aol.com
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=172349
I have a 500+k archive if you want me to mail you that.
nice
I saw Unbreakable last night. Not a great movie, but it did have some good train scenes. My observations:
1. EastRail 177 is made up of unrefurbished Amfleet cars from Amtrak. You can see the illuminated signs reading EXIT, CAFE, and RESTROOM. I couldn't identify the type of engine, but it is number 177. This is shown when Elijah and David shake hands at the end of the movie.
2. While EastRail 177 crashes outside of Philadelphia, I don't think it was taped there. The NY-Philly corridor is nothing like that. The station the train leaves before Philly looks like an Orange Line CTA Station.
3. A Septa bus with a number starting with 3 and ending with 1 (think it was 3421) is shown at one point. Couldn't see a destination sign.
4. The scene in which Elijah is chasing the guy who had the gun in the stadium, the guy with the gun heads into a subway station. The stairs he go down lead to a Regional Rail platform. I saw a General Electric Silverliner on that platform which appeared to be above ground. I caught a glimpse of street signs before they head down the stairs, but couldn't catch an intersection. These stairs should lead to either the MFL, BSL, 10, 11, 13, 34, or 36. There was also no fare control in this station.
5. The Drexel University Stadium was definately filmed from just east of the Amtrak ROW. The bridge from University City to 30th Street that carries the R1, R2, and R3 is clearly visible.
6. 30th Street was shown to be half its real size. The station looked like the one in "X-Men".
My ratings:
TRANSIT DEPICTION: B+
MOVIE OVERALL: C-
COMMENTS: THERE ARE BETTER MOVIES TO SEE.
You seemed to have missed the other 2 posts about this movie.
5. The Drexel University Stadium was definately filmed from just east of the Amtrak ROW. The bridge from University City to 30th Street that carries the R1, R2, and R3 is clearly visible.
That was the University of Pennsylvania's Franklin Field. If you said that near a Penn grade they'd pummel you.
Regarding 4 that sceene was filmed at the University City regional rail station which is located right accross from Franklin Field on Spruce St. They duded it up with fare control (correct SEPTA 'styles tho) and "Subway" signs at the entrance.
The bridge from University City to 30th Street that carries the R1, R2, and R3 is clearly visible.
The bridge is the NS High Line (Harrisburg Line) the suburban tracks are at ground level.
The station they used looked nothing like 30th St. or any other real station. It was a set.
The crash sceen was probably filmed on the Harrisburg Line between PAOLI and DOWNS.
The Amtrak cars looked too plush and roomy to be standard Amfleet. They looked like a Cascades car. I also found it hard to believe that a train wreck in this age of FRA crash standards could kill every one in all the cars. Also it was a stretch that a security guard could afford Amtrak style service on a trip to NYC.
It is very possible that the station scenes were filmed at Trenton or Lancaster.
I'd give the movie a B-/C+ for transit depiction.
Obviously I did. What were the other two threads about this movie titled?
I know Philly well enough. At least I could figure out where it was. As for University City, it was too quick for me to figure out what it was.
I spent my summer taking classes at Penn and many of the good vantage points for shooting the Suburban line are seen in the film. The university city station is new and there is a blue footbridge where the tracks divide for the island platform. The location is very photogenic w/ the stadium, the catenary, a PL signal bridge and the hi-line.
That was the University of Pennsylvania's Franklin Field. If you said that near a Penn grade they'd pummel you.
They'd also typo you to debt!
You mean typot be to debt.
Back to the title topic (sort of), in "Gore Vidal's The Best Man", closing soon at the Virginia Theater on 52nd Street, a black-and-white TV news scene supposedly shows a former president getting off a train at 30th Street Station (arriving at the 1960 convention) setting foot on the ground outdoors with nary a platform in sight.
I don't know if this was discussed earlier. I've been out of town since the incident.
I was on the platform at Bedford Ave on the L, Tuesday, Nov. 14, around 8:45am, when a giant cloud of black smoke came out of the tunnel from Manhattan. It wasn't just a little smoke, it was totally enveloping. The MTA was supposed to start asbestos work in the tunnel Nov 17. Does anyone know what happened?
This board has discussed ad nausium possible solutions to the Manny-B dilemma, as well as how best to improve flexibility in the system. Some of our ideas are good; some fantasy; some absurd.
Here's a thought I don't recall seeing discussed. How about a flying junction between the IND 6th Avenue line and BMT Broadway line at 34th Street? Just imagine the flexibility that would ensue! Northern and southern termini as well as river crossings could be easily matched to meeet demand and reroutes as necessary.
Does anyone know how much separation there is between these two lines at 34th street, and if the infrastructure in the area would permit the necessary connections - in any form - simple or complex?
It would require massive construction, around the PATH and water tunnels in the area. The expense isn't justified. Building the Rutgers/Dekalb connection would make more sense.
I'd love to see a 3-D rendering of the infrastructure in that area, to see just how difficult it would really be!
I saw a crude one on the A&E subway special aired years ago. The 6th Ave line runs above the water tunnel, below the BMT and underneath the PATH (at the southern end of the station. An amazing engineering feat. I doubt a junction could be built here.
And don't forget the Conrail/Amtrak lines just south of all this!
Oh yeah. What a mess. How does it all keep from collapsing on itself? LOL
With all the money that they will need to change at Herald Square, they can finish the 2nd Ave Line
And the 6th Avenue el on top!
In the early years at the Transit Museum there was IIEC atiny relief model of the entire system . Presumably it showed--Icould not see in that detail from the edge of the display. If the data can be accessed from the TA, it would make a spectacular on line project.
Another project for your altimeter watch, sometime when you're really bored.
Depth measurements are easy to make (even when bored :-). The real problem is to find out the obstacles between the tubes.
No way that I can see for that to happen. There are too many obstacles in that area, not to mention the hardship on commuters if such a project were undertaken. A new tunnel under the East River to get all trains off the Manhattan Bridge would be a great achievement, since the bridge from what I have seen and read was not really designed for rail traffic ( suspension bridges are not good for rail traffic - light rail maybe, but not heavy rail ). Ideally, all lines should be in tunnels when crossing the East River, not on bridges, for safety matters.
I will be in around 9:45, but pigs will shre be there. We can discuss Idiots on the LIAR, ACELA and The SVM.
If the Roosevelt Boulevard subway is ever built, do you think it should connect to the Market-Frankford Line at Bridge-Pratt or to the Broad Street Line at Erie, or both? (I know this is supposed to be about New York, but Philadelphia is living in your shadow anyways).
We've actually had plenty of threads about transit in Philly. If it's about rail transit, it's relevant. About the Roosevelt Blvd Line, I think it should be connected to the Broad Street Line's express tracks. That would make for a much faster ride into Center City.
Also, it won't be good to connect the Roosevelt Blvd line to the MFL at Bridge-Pratt, since the trains on the el run so often, especially during rush hour. Also, I think it is funny how we don't really have any real names for our subway lines, like New York does. That shows how small our rapid transit system is in Philadelphia, and we can use street names to identify lines. Also, that shows that one line doesn't really go anywhere other than one or two streets that it follows.
Just trying to be as annoyingly NYCentric as possible.
Though nobody in any power has thought of this, a better idea would be an branch off the subway between Olney and Fern Rock (and here I am not talking about the little underground turback pocket behind Olney). Trains going to the Boulevard should proceed to the southern portal at Fern Rock (the one that now connects to the 1 track loop that is used to get around Fern Rock (the loop should be kept in service if possible). Then, an up incline should be built from the point of the portal, so it is high enough to clear the regional rail tracks east of Fern Rock. Then, it should proceed either as an elevated or along a railroad ROW until it reaches the Boulevard.
Where exactly do you plan for the Roosevelt Boulevard line to Terminate. I think it should go all the way to Pattison, but it wouldn't be able to if those trains used the express tracks, which is being used by the Broad Ridge and express trains, by the way...
If the new line ran through the Broad Street Express tracks it would have to stop at Walnut-Locust. According to plans proposed, the Roosevelt subway would conect with the Broad Street tunnels as well as make include a transfer point to the Market-Frankford line by extending the MFL to the intersection of Roosevelt and Bustleton. I think this would make both lines a lot more useful.
Michalovic
<<>>
This board is not limited to New York. Salaam rants about L.A.'s system, I badmouth The New Market-Frankford El trains, a couple of Boton postings, so it's not limited to New York.
At the least, specify that you're refering to Philly in the title, lest we assume you mean the Roosevelt Blvd in Queens.
-Hank
Is there a Roosevelt Blvd in Queens?
Nope
Although there are no streets in Queens called Roosevelt Boulevard, There are two subway stations with the name "Roosevelt."
Roosevelt Avenue on the
(soon to be )
Then there's Roosevelt Island on the (soon to be ).
Yes, there was a short time (Oct. 1989 to Apr 1990) when the went to 21-Queensbridge. You could get a 1-seat ride from Queens to Queens via Manhattan and Brooklyn. You can't find that anywhere in the subway now!
The "E" once upon a time , during Rush hours went the biggie from Jamaica ot Far Rock. Circa late 1950s and 1960s.
avid
36 miles, to be exact.
And, of course, every stop on the 7 from 74 St to Main St is on Roosevelt Ave (I think older maps may refer to "Main St-Roosevelt Ave").
Streetwise, there's also Roosevelt Street (one block, off Beach 9 St in Far Rockaway) and Roosevelt Walk (Breezy Point). The other boroughs have their shares of Roosevelts, as well; none of them have acheived Boulevard status :).
I don't think the Q will ever make it to Roosevelt Ave, unfortunately.
Actually, the 7 in on Rossevelt Ave well west of 74th. It turns from Queens Blvd ontp Roosevelt Ave at 48th St, between the 46 St-Bliss and 52nd St statons.
:-)Andrew
Oh, yeah :).
Also, I take back "Main St-Roosevelt Ave" on maps; all the maps I've checked say "Main St-Flushing"
Then there's Roosevelt Island on the Q B JFK(soon to be F).
Since when was Roosevelt Island, NY 10044 in Queens?
If you look carefully, you'll notice I said
"Although there are no streets in Queens called Roosevelt Boulevard, There are two subway stations with the name 'Roosevelt.'"
I never said anything about the subway stations being in Queens. All I said was that they carried the name "Roosevelt."
The phrasing of the sentence implies completely that you meant Queens.
Read it again:
Although there are no streets in Queens called Roosevelt Boulevard, There are two subway stations with the name "Roosevelt."
Where did you mention that you were moving on to the whole city?
With the redbirds retiring will they be some sort of auction,i would like to get some of the old roll signs and maybe some headlights, or the chains between the cars.
I don't know about an auction, but I know that they are going to cut up the redbirds and throw em' in the ocean.
There's a live chat going on right now. Click on the link above to join!
Does anyone know how many Train Operators the TA plan to hire and over what period of time? My list number is in the low 900's and already I have been scheduled to take a survey test next Saturday. I am just wondering will this lead to a job with the TA within the next few months. Any information would be helpful.
PETER
I remember reading - around the time that the announcement for the exam was made - that NYC Transit was looking to hire 350 operators a year "for the next few years."
Whether "this will lead to a job within the next few months" will depend upon a few factors: 1. how many people ahead of you REALLY WANT the job (note: I do); 2. how many of those people are able to pass the drug test, the medical exam, and the background check; and 3. whether what I recall reading is in fact an accurate reflection of NYC Transit's desires.
I will be in Brooklyn for the survey on Saturday. Good luck to you (and to any other SubTalk readers that took the exam and are hopeful of gaining employment).
Is This new bridge arrangement, supposed to take effect in July 2001, really going to happen? From what I had heard, the B'way side of Manny B was going to be closed until 2003. If they re-opened it, that would be cool. But really, are they going to do this? If so, What about the N train. Will it become the Broadway express again? How about this Brighton Q local service. Will it be express in manhattan? There are so many weird parts of this plan, that I can't believe that it is true.
The Brighton would have 2 Q trains (express and local), both running via the bridge. The N would remain as it is today. A new line, the W, would replace the B in Brooklyn and operate via the bridge to Queensboro Plaza, extending to Astoria rush hours.
I am on the list for Train Operator, and just got a letter telling me to report to the TA Learning Center(formerly P.S. 248), for the Train Operator Selection Survey (TOSS)next week. Any clue what this is going to be?
Its a psych test to evaluate how your attendance will be. A typical question might be, " If you 7 year old wakes up sick and cannot go to school and your wife is at work would you:
a)Call work and try and get the day off
b)Try to get your wife to come home
c)Take your son immediatly to the doctor and worry about work later
d)Ask a relative to watch him
There looking for d) or B) Answer the questions to make them think that you will show up for work even if there is a nucluar war.
I'm pretty sure that this has been done to death, with everyone still speculating on what will be the the finished product concerning the 63rd St. connector (oh, well. I guess one more ain't gonna hurt).
What follows is a list of proposed summary of terminals and routes for Subdivision B when the connector opens in late August of 2001.
E - Jamaica Center or 179th Street, Jamaica and World Trade Center all times. Express in Queens, except nights. Late nights, local in Queens. Selected trips will operate to 179 St. during rush hours. The E will operate via Queens Blvd Exp, 53rd St. Tunnel, and 8th Av. Local.
F - 179th Street, Jamaica and Coney Island, Brooklyn all times. Express in Queens, except late nights. Late nights, local in Queens. The F will operate via Hillside Local, Queens Blvd Exp, 63rd St. Tunnel, 6th Av. Local, and Culver.
G - Court Square, Queens and Smith-9th Street, Brooklyn all times. The G will operate via Crosstown Local.
R - Continental Avenue, Queens, and 95th Street, Bay Ridge all times except nights. The R will operate via Queens Blvd Local, 60th St. Tunnel, Broadway and 4th Av. Local. Late nights, shuttle, 95th St.-36th St.
V - Continental Avenue, Queens, and 2nd Avenue/Houston Street, Manhattan, weekdays, 6am - midnight. The V will operate via Queens Blvd Local, 53rd St. Tunnel, and 6th Av. Local.
These service changes are scheduled to start in the summer of 2001.
B - Bedford Pk. Blvd, Bronx or 145 Street, Manhattan and 34th Street/6th Avenue weekdays. The B will operate via the Concourse Local, Central Pk. West Local, and 6th Av.
D - 205th Street, Bronx and 34th Street/6th Avenue all times. Rush hours, will operate Concourse Exp. in Bronx, peak direction. All other times, via Concourse Local, Central Pk. West Exp. and 6th Av.
Q - 57th Street/7th Avenue, Manhattan and Coney Island, Brooklyn all times. The Q will operate via the Broadway Exp. and the Brighton Local.
Q - 57th Street/7th Avenue, Manhattan and Brighton Beach, Brooklyn weekdays, 6am - 10pm. This Q service will be designated by a diamond and will operate via Broadway Exp. and Brighton Exp.
W - Ditmars Blvd, Astoria and Coney Island, Brooklyn all times except nights. The W will operate 31st St. Exp. (peak direction), Broadway Exp, 4th Av. Exp. and West End Local. Late nights, West End Shuttle.
S - Shuttle
Broadway-Lafayette St. and Grand Street, Manhattan all times.
S - Shuttle (temp until 63rd St connector opens)
21st Street, Queensbridge, and Broadway-Lafayette Street, Manhattan all times. This shuttle will operate via the 6th Av. Local.
Now that was a mouthful!
Wouldn't it make sense to combine those two 6th shuttles into one?
Also, though I'm happy at the apparent return (via selected E service) of the Hillside Ave express, I don't think that's really the best way to do it. I sort of feel that a letter should always have the same terminals (other than being cut back on evenings and weekends.) What I'd rather see is the V extended to 179th St, at least during rush hours, so the F could run express to 179th.
:-) Andrew
Yes I would think it makes sense to just combine those 2 shuttles during the times before the 63rd connection fully opens, but something tells me it has something to do with the location of the crossover in the vincinity of BWay/Lafayette. I am wondering why a crossover wasn't built right before Grand before (or after) the Chrystie connection opened.
So some rush hour (E)s will make its way to 179th, similar to the (A) scenario in the Rockaways. The difference is, the Rockaways don't have to deal with many except those who live there (correct me if I'm wrong). In Jamaica, a major transportation hub, you might have people coming from Long Island (via LIRR & buses etc.) and therefore more people. I think more people will be confused by this (E) scenario than the idea of having 2 (Q)s in Brooklyn since the 2 (Q)s don't branch off. Besides, we know there will be people who don't listen to announcements or read the signs (or downed gates, like that recent LIRR tragedy).
Residents aren't a problem: they'll get used to the two versions of the E.
The A has it worse than residents: it has tourists trying to get to the airport.
I'd expect to see the W run local on the Astoria line when the final plan comes out. Running them express wouldn't benefit anyone and those people who use the local stops will raise hell with their very powerful city councilman, Peter Vallone.
You forgot the N
I didn't forget the N, Bob. No major service changes were proposed for the N, so I would assume that N service will probably not change at all.
That will Make Slow Beach Fred very happy.
The N, R, and W will all have to merge onto the same track at 57/7 and share that track into Queens. Will there be enough capacity?
I don't think it will be too much of a problem, David. The way I see it, if they can run the B, D, and Q lines on the same track along 6th Avenue and the Manhattan Bridge without too much trouble, they should be able to run the N, R, and W lines the same way.
They ran the N/R and B lines along 60th St to Queens with no problems from 86-88. It can handle the traffic.
During the mid 60's pre Chrystie the Broadway Line had 3 locals (QB QT RR) and 3 expresses (N Q T) running on a given day. I don't recall any major meltdowns back then.
Jose
Actually 2 Locals and 3 exp. The QB and QT did not run local at the same time.
Right! In addition you had at least 2 crossovers. One was the T south of 57th from the local to express tracks (southbound) and the other was the QB south of Prince from local to the express tracks (also southbound) heading to the MB. The reverse was true for northbound trains.
Jose
Just how long will the North side of the Manhattan Bridge be out of action?
That I could not answer, JD. The proposal does not state how long the north side of the Manhattan Bridge will be closed, although I have heard it suggested that it will be closed at least through 2004.
I find that hard to believe given how long it will take the south-side to complete. And the north-side has always been the more heavily used side (according to this site).
The last time the north side was closed, it was for 2.5 years. I believe 3 years is the maximum. The north side is more in need to be opened, because it's closure is much more of a disruption to the entire system.
You say the V would operate thru the 53rd St. tunnel. Your must mean the 63rd St. tunnel. But one question: between midnite & 6 AM and all day Sat/Sun, what would take its' place? If you reroute the F, you would confuse people as to different ways it operates to/from Manhattan, unless you have circles & diamonds and the public has to be educated as to the difference between them.
No, Bill, I meant 53rd St. But that's a good question. Apparently, when the V is not running, the only service through the 53rd Street Tunnel will be the E during late nights and weekends. The proposal doesn't say that the F will operate along 53rd St. when the V is not running.
Keep in mind that these are just proposals; nothing is set in stone as of yet.
I would assume that the TA will hand out pamphlets explaining these service changes in detail before they go into effect, and will have plenty of passenger controllers on the affected platforms to help quell confusion for the first few weeks.
Queens has a very high immigrant (legal and/or illegal) population. Those immigrants may not necessarily be able to read the pamplets or speak english. Their faces show sheer confusion when there's a G.O. It's up to those immigrants themselves to try and develop the basic english skills needed for daily society if they want to live a normal satisfactory life.
As a Bumper Sticker that I saw on a car in LA a few years ago said Welcome to American Now Learn English.
We had a sticker on the counter at a video rental store that I worked at a few years ago that said "English Spoken Here" :)
Shawn.
Every borough has a high immigrant population. It may take some time but they'll figure out which train to take.
I misread the route of the F, so the V would go via 53rd St. But I feel that the V should have service on the weekends. We'll know when the pick books come out.
There should be no weekend service on the V. This will prevent me from getting weekends off or part of them!
As I stated in previous posts. Just run the Q thru 63rd, via Express, and make the F Local Then there will be no need for the V or Confusion on Circle or Diamond. So the people at 57/6 walk 1 block to 57/7. It will not kill them.
No, they said the "V" would go by 53rd Street, not 63rd Street. I think this will be an awkward arrangement, too. There's going to be a lot of shuffling around by "F" riders who suddenly can't get to 53rd Street without a change of trains. I would run the "V" by 63rd Street and leave the "F" alone.
wayne
I was headed for 86th street in Bay Ridge (for the S79)from 5av/42nd street. I got off the 7 and just made a Brooklyn bound B.
It was announced several times that due to a G.O., the Brooklyn bound B will be running on the N. We ran express to 36th, but switched to the local track right before 36th. Then we ran local all the way to 59th. The conductor was telling people who wanted the R that it was only running a shuttle, and you had to cross over and get the shuttle train on the northbound express track. One train after another rolled on through 59th on the S/B local track, a B, and an OOS R32. It was clear there were delays having three lines running on one track.
I stayed waiting for the R in it's normal spot. When the 2nd B came, the conductor told more people that the R was running a shuttle, and to cross over to the Manhattan bound express track. But I stayed put, after seeing an Manhattan bound R running on the regular local track.
After about 10 minutes the R showed up, on it's regular S/B track.
People from the other side ran over the crossover to catch it.
How could two conductors make such a big mistake? I was aware that R shuttles were running nights, but this was around 10:30am.
Got off at 86th street, and just made the S79 to the mall, which was a very slow ride.
It was cold, brisk day, a great day to ride the Staten Island Railway.
After being at the S.I. Mall for a little while, I took an S59 to Eltingville. Got a Tottenville bound train. The trip went smoothly until after Hugenot, when we slowed to a crawl, then stopped several times. There were dispatchers on scene, and then we switched tracks.
We arrived at Princes Bay on the St.George bound track, and then after, you could see lots of work being done on the S/B track. There were gravel trucks and backhoes, but they were on rails, like they were modified to run on tracks or something. They were digging a trench, for something. Perhaps this is the signal system upgrade?
Arrived at Tottenville. It was very cold and windy, and very quiet. It feels like the middle of nowhere. And over there, the N.J. radio stations come in quite clear, especially Magic 98.3 and 94.3 The Point (94.3 has a pretty good signal all over the south shore). Good stations.
Going back was faster, and I notice that the power poles (are they used for SIRT or ConEd feeders?) are the same ones in the picture of a SIRT train on the December page in subways 2000 calander. We did slow around the switch around Pleasant Plains, and saw what looked like a temporary hut, next to the N/B track. Is this where the switches are controlled? Since dispatchers were on scene at all switches in the vicinity, I guess they are all manual.
Very scenic ride, and a nice view from the hill around Great Kills of the ocean, and Sandy Hook.
Passed the Clifton shops, which are right by the water. That's where I guess the SIRT R44 OH cars get their salty ocean smell.
All in all, a nice day to be on Staten Island.
They are indeed all manual switches. The reasons the Jersey radio stations come in so clear is the clear line-of-sight you have acrss the water to the transmitters.
Much of the SIR's equipment is modified with 'Hy-Rail' equipment.
It's been a while since I rode, but since all the track has been renewed within the last 5 years, they were probably doing work on the signal system.
Funny thing about some of the hy-rail dump trucks, the beds can rotate 90 degrees left or right, and this dump sideways.
-Hank
Was this fake freeway built when the LIRR was elevated in the Rockaways?
Yes. As a matter of fact, it used to be the private right of way for the LIRR before the el was built.
It always did surprise me that this is called a 'Freeway'. There's a light at virtually every corner. Back in the thirties, Moses wanted to build a limited-access parkway the length of the peninsula all the way from the Gil Hodges Bridge to the projected Atlantic Beach Bridge and Nassau Expressway- there's a freeway-style trumpet interchange at that point. The concept of a 'freeway' along what was then the LIRR ROW may have been remnants of his plan.
The divided Shore Front Parkway along the oceanfront from the Beach 70s through 100s was also projected to be part of this highway. After the proposal was defeated in the sixties, all those high-rise co-ops were built. Up until the seventies, there were wooden 'parkway poles' of 1930s/40s vintage along the Parkway and Freeway, as well as on the Riis Park roadways. There's still a stone-arch bridge at an 'interchange' at the east end of the park that very strongly resembles those seen on Long Island parkways.
Moses clearly lost more battles after the war than before, such as the Cross-Brooklyn Expressway and two Manhattan crosstown expressways that were supposed to connect East River bridges with Hudson River tunnels. Back when the limited-access Shore Front Parkway was proposed, the Rockaways was still a summer colony for the middle-class without the empty stretches and projects we see in Arverne today. Hence, much more political clout.
There are many Parkways that are actually residential and/or commercial streets- Utopia, Little Neck, Douglaston, Marathon, Manhattan College, Rockaway, Bay. In California, the term Expressway is often applied to divided highways with limited signalled intersections, driveways to shopping centers, and higher speed limits- much like our Sunrise Highway, Veterans Highway, Pelham Parkway or U.S. 22. A freeway is always considered limited access- except the Rockaway 'Freeway'.
Just from my experience, the lights on the "Freeway" are timed so that it almost functions as a limited access highway, as opposed to the parallel Beach Channel Drive, where I seem to get a red light at every intersection. Perhaps it was called "Freeway" simply because it wasn't a "Turnpike" (toll road)? I'll have to dig out my old maps to see how long it's been there and what other options there were to get to Rockaway.
Yes, and notice how the 'Rockaway Freeway' appears to be one of the last places in the city to have those red/green traffic signals on a post. I think the city has universally gone to red/yellow/green hanging lights since the 1980s' (maybe Kevin can confirm this).
BMTman
There are some yellowless signals lingering around Liberty Ave/Lefferts Blvd way; at least there were the last time I was over there (this past summer, I think).
Still there in November.
-Hank
I think it was the 60s.
It's not that the standard at the time involved posts vs. masts, but I believe that there are no masts because they wouldn't fit! Most of the lights are attached to the el.
There are two ANCIENT traffic light holders, one on the 86th St Transverse in The Park and another on 46th and Park.
For those of you who are unaware, the Rockaway Freeway has no yellows on nearly all of its traffic lights. Simultaneous red-green replaces the function of yellow.
In California, the term Expressway is often applied to divided highways with limited signalled intersections, driveways to shopping centers, and higher speed limits- much like our Sunrise Highway, Veterans Highway, Pelham Parkway or U.S. 22.
But note that the Sunrise Highway now is fully limited-access through most of Suffolk County. Heading east, the last traffic light is by Babylon Town Hall, five miles or thereabouts past the Nassau line (and right by the LIRR Central Branch overpass). You then have a blessedly light-free stretch of 40 miles or so until a couple of miles past the Shinnecock Canal bridge. Service (a.k.a. frontage) roads handle the countless strip malls and shopping plazas along the way.
I've been hearing on this board that the first set of R62A cars of the #6 line are supposed to be on the #7 line starting December right now. Because some R142A are supposed to come on delivery to the #6 line now. I already know why they can run R142/142A on the #7 line because they are all 10 car trains & the #7 line needs single trains like the R62A. Oh well I just want to see the R142/142A tested on the #7 line, & on the 1/9 lines.
Our boys are just fine.. thank you.
Tho I'm sure there's a scrapyard
somewhere hungry for Canadian Steel..
Amtrak has just unveiled its "Guest Rewards Program," similar to airline frequent flyer programs. Here's a link to the Web site. It appears to be only for northeast corridor riders. I'll be signing-up on-line so I can get credit for my upcoming AE trip!
A correction: The AMTRAK Guest Rewards Program is available on all AMTRAK routes. But if you travel in first class on the NEC (Acela Express or Metroliner) you get a bonus. According to their Web site, they have an impressive set of partners, though specific details on how this works is in the membership kit -- which will be mailed after you sign-up.
Todd, how do you sign up.? Yes I know the nearest Amtrack is 2500 miles from Hawaii, but I am only going to be here another three weeks, and then join you guys in the cold East Coast. Outside of Dullas Airport Area, and I don t want to drive from DC to NYC so will use the train
Bob you can sign-up on the Web site.
Will someone please post the exact location of this "Transit Tech High School"?
Reference has been made several times of taking the J to Norwood Ave. I thought that Norwood only ran from Jamaica Ave to Atlantic Ave, and I have no recollection of a school. I recall it as being an entirely residential street! Is this school south of Atlantic Ave?
Yes it is. It is about a block south of Atlantic and a block north of Liberty Avenues.
Train#1931Mike
Thanks Mike! Since Norwood ends at Atlantic, it must be on Milford St!
Yes it is. It is about a block south of Atlantic and a block north of Liberty Avenues.
Train#1931Mike
Thanks Mike! Since Norwood ends at Atlantic, it must be on Milford St!
Yes it is. It is about a block south of Atlantic and a block north of Liberty Avenues.
Train#1931Mike
Thanks Mike! Since Norwood ends at Atlantic, it must be on Milford St!
A group called 'Bela Fleck and the Flecktones' apprarently have an album being released called "Outbound". I saw an add for it in the Village Voice.
The cover has a sideview of 8013 with one door-half open and a ghost-like image of man stepping out of the car.
Has anyone else seen this?
BMTman
Courtesy: Yahoo! Music Online...
Looks similar to the ad campaign for "The taking of Pelham 123"
Thanks, (1) South Ferry (9).
I just wonder if any of their songs are related to rapid transit....:-)
BMTman
Just saw "Unbreakable" with Bruce Willis and Samuel L. Jackson. It's a highly cerebral story set in Philadelphia.
What's interesting, transit-wise, is that SEPTA shows up accurately, but the inter-city train service is called "EastRail" instead of Amtrak. Maybe that's because an EastRail train derailment is central to the plot - Willis' character is the sole survivor - and Amtrak would have had a PR problem.
"Maybe that's because an EastRail train derailment is central to the plot - Willis' character is the sole survivor - and Amtrak would have had a PR problem."
I just saw the movie last night -- loved it; trains and rail lines were a repeating image throughout the movie -- and I don't see why Amtrak would have had a PR problem. Without revealing too much, suffice it to say that the derailment in the movie wasn't in the least the fault of the fictional "EastRail".
I posted about this and according to Jersey Mike, so did some other people.
Mayor Street voted no at the DVRPC hearing on Metrorail, insisting that it include a subway or light rail line on the "City Branch Alignment" past the Art Museum, Zoo, and Parkside Ave. to 52nd St. I assume the City Branch is the rail tunnel under Pennsylvania Ave. 52nd and Parkside are adjacent to the Mann Music Center. I think this line would be great, especially since a lot of the infrastructure is already in place. The Fairmount area of Center City is really poorly served by rapid transit.
Good for the Mayor!
That would take a good rail line to the City Avenue area, too. What do you know about that corridor? I always thought it would be a good place for some kind of rail transit, but I'm not an expert on that part of town.
Michalovic
Yes, the art museum area and West Fairmount Park would be excellent places to run transit. I hope Street can make it happen, although if he handles it like he's been handling the stadiums, I doubt it.
The only problem with this idea is it would require a new river crossing for a minimal level of service. Frankly, I'd like to see PATCO extended to these parts, possibly with some other branches going to different places in Philadelphia, but I doubt that will ever happen.
I had a feeling this would happen. $1.4 Billion for a 60-mile electrified line with train service every 15 minutes from Reading to Center City while there are huge parts of Philly without rail transit service that can and should have it. Street did the right thing. There was something screwy about the way the SVM was being planned from the beginning. Think about it: A train every fifteen minutes from Reading to Center City and back, while other Regional Rail lines have AT BEST a train every 30 minutes, even on the lines that don't leave the city. The new line is planned to have widely-spaced high platforms and brand new cars. Why won't SEPTA improve the other Regional Rail lines this way?
Last month I read that there will be a tour of Philly Trolleys or something like that, on the old Phil and Western Routes out of 69th St sometime next Month in January. Sponsored by the Delaware Valley Something. Sorry I just don t not remember which. It was in Railkroad Magazine. Does anyone have any infor about that?
Sounds like it would be by the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers, although I haven't heard anything about it. Contact them at www.dvarp.org
If they are the ones in Wilmington, that would be it. Thanks
"Super Saturday Streetcar Special VIII" using Red Arrow PCC #2799 sponsored by Wilmington Chapter NRHS Jan 27. $30. Departs Elmwood carbarn 10 AM, return estimated 3 PM. Contact Wilmington Chapter c/o Steve Barry, 117 High Street, Newton, NJ 07860. Or email steve@daylightimages.com
(from Dec Railfan and Railroad).
P.S. This trip will be on city trolley lines using the Red Arrow PCC.
Why are there Three Tracks on the MBTA Orange line from Wellington to Community College. But only to Tracks along the rest of the line. This seems like an awfuly short distance to have an express track. Also why is the seconed platform at Community College closed.
If the LIRR extenstion to GCT were to be built, how would this impact trains that terminate at points such as LIC, Hunters Point, or Flatbush. Is there a chance that enouch trains terminating there may be rerouted to GCT that either the Flatbush-Jamaica or LIC-Jamaica line may not be necessary for LIRR use and converted to subway?
Bad idea. All of the following reasons have been aired in previous threads. Just to remind you:
Service to one location is no substitute for service to another unless they are within walking distance. GCT is not within walking distance of either of the other locations.
Subways are no substitute for commuter trains. They serve different needs in different ways.
An Atlantic Avenue subway line would be redundant. There is already subway service parallel to the LIRR Atlantic Branch.
There is no demand for subways along the Montauk Branch. If the people living near the Montauk Branch don't like LIRR traffic, just imagine their response to subway trains on the route.
Hello everyone: I'm a long time reader, first time poster, and I've got an oddball question.
A few years back, i went on the tour of the abandoned city hall station, and after the 'offical' tour was done, the guides asked if anyone wanted to see 'the wine cellar'...
...curious, about 15 people took them up on the offer, and were lead behind a door to a maintance area (the door was off a hallway heading towards the exit near pace U.), down some stairs, and around an area that at some point was a wine cellar (there was a company name on the wall, but i forget what it was). Beyond this area, we went up a ladder and into what seemed to be a short subway tunnel (completely with what looked to be a track buried in the dirt) that i recall someone saying was pretty much under the base of the bridge. this area lead to a cliff that looked down on the J-M-Z platform @ brooklyn bridge.
My question, of course, is does anyone have any information on this unusual, abandoned underground space, or know of any websites i might be able to find such info? (I've looked around a bit and have thus far come up short...)
Thanks in advance.
-Joe
I can't answer your question, but let me just say "Welcome Aboard" and I hope to see you become a regular. BTW I love your handle.
Thanks - I'll probably end up posting a bit now - as for the handle, "can you smell what the joe's got cooking?" heh!
I was on that tour. It was very interesting. I imagine that the entrance we went through has been sealed up by now.
Peace,
ANDEE
why do you think they'd seal up the entrance? it seemed to be a pretty odd, secure spot. (then again...)
-Joe
Did you get any pictures?
I could use them for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I did not have a camera. But, the enviroment for taking pictures wasn't too good.
Peace,
ANDEE
I got a couple before my batteries went dead on my camera.
I was actually just going to email you this week and see if you could use them. I've got quite a few photos, the majority of which are black and white, and of damn good quality considering there was next to zero light down there. My brother might have a few color shots as well (he took the tour perhaps 6 months before I did...). I can probably email you a sampling of them by the weekend.
This must have been from the plan to connect the tracks at Chambers to the Brooklyn Bridge el tracks.
<<>>
It may have been, though from where the cliff leaves off to the J-M-Z below, it would hae been quite a steep grade to climb (I'm a bad estimator of height, but it had to be a 50 to 100ft. drop off). My guess was that perhaps the brooklyn bridge el tracks had an 'underground' terminal, like that of the tracks which went over the 59th street bridge.
In any case, here's a few more details of this odd tunnel: an old steel set of steps connected it to the 'wine cellar' - under those steps I noticed (and have a photo of, actually) an odd message written on the wall that stated 'commit no nuisence here' . (it wasn't written in graffiti style letters, and there was no graffiti in this tunnel). Towards one end was what seemed like a loading dock - with another set of steps up to it. by climbing the steps and ducking down along a truely low ceiling (3, perhaps 4 feet at some spots), you'd reach the cliff overlooking the J-M-Z stop.
Short of the 'loading dock', 2 tunnels meet - one comes in on a curve, and the other (which has the steps in from the wine cellar) is straight. In the dirt where there 2 tunnels met, you could clearly see some type of rail switch track. The truely puzzling part is that perhaps 10, 20 feet from this switch, the track runs directly into the 'loading dock' (!), pointing in the direction of the cliff and J-M-Z station.
And that is pretty much all I know about this place. if you all want I can throw together a webpage (afterall, that is my day job)with some photos (which I hope can find a more permenant home on forgotten-ny.com - nudge nudge =) ).
-Joe
The Brooklyn Bridge el tracks terminated at Park Row, almost adjacent to City Hall. The terminus was elevated as well. When the Centre St. line was first planned, it included a loop in which trains from the Williamsburg Bridge would loop back to Brooklyn via the Brooklyn Bridge while trains off the Manhattan Bridge would loop back via the Montague St. tunnel. The latter was eventually completed, and this loop was used mainly by rush hour trains up until the Chrystie St. connection opened. Provision was made for the former at Chambers St., where the westernmost tracks ramp up through the station. I saw this last fall for the first time. The connection to the Brooklyn Bridge was never built, possibly due to concerns that the bridge would not be able to handle steel subway trains. When the Nassau Loop opened in 1931, the two outer tracks at Chambers St. were tied into it, taking advantage of the higher proximity of the westernmost track which emerges on the upper level at Fulton St.
Would it ever have been possible for the tracks inside tracks to turn west and connect to the lower level of the Broadway line heading north? Don't ask for what, just yet. I'm still kicking this brainstorm around. Or maybe to the turnouts from the IND local just south of Canal? Someone else think , My head hurts.
avid
I've got no clue... what's the theory?
-Joe
The theory, and only a theory was to provide a loop south of the BMT City Hall station, N/R, connecting to the center tracks of the BMT south of Chambers Street J/M/Z. With the eventual hope of a Second ave or 6th ave connection.
Really pushing the Outter Limits, Possible use in the far future by down sized LIRR cars (75ft) to this loop by lower level 63rd tunnel, down B'way and up 6th Ave. In and out , one stop only in Manhattan, Lower Level, City Hall ALL-OFF. CHAMBERS STREET on-load for the trip to L.I. next stop Jamaica!
avid
Hmmm... there goes the 'bridge terminal theory'. . Thanks for all the info though. Is that ramp @ chambers street visible from or in the platform (I don't have occasion to take the J-M-Z much)? perhaps they had begun the construction up to the bridge, changed plans? The section is rather short...
-Joe
This sounds like a very interesting place. Can you see the top of the cliff from the platform on the J-M-Z?
Oddly, I've never gone down to the platform to take a look. I'd imagine you could if you had a strong enough flashlight. Has anyone else tried? (it's at the south end of the platform, for those who've never been there)
-Joe
there was a company name on the wall, but i forget what it was
The paint on the wall over the doorway reads:
CHAMPAGNE
(heraldic logo)
BOLROGER & CO.
The city used to rent these spaces out. Some others contain a bunch of tools used when building the bridge, construction helmets, and
wagon wheels.
I realized I had Paint Shop Pro on the CD rom that came with one of the HTML books I got, so now I can make my own bullets to add to those on this site. (Don't know why they came out so grainy)
Unused Letters ("T" is there because this is how it appears on signs)
More reroutes
Gold letters (suggested color for Broadway)
Diamond Q (R-68A 5001-8 style)
Now I can complete my name in bullets!
Cool!
And here are 4 more I just added:
(gray K for proposed Canarsie Skip-stop)
I just realized that the Wingdings font has this right facing plane (capital Q), and all I had to do was rotate the image, and voila!
Very nice.
I think the TA should revive that symbol for use on one of the new lines coming out of the two upcoming changes. Oh, it wouldn't go anywhere near JFK, but it's a nice change from all those letters, and it's already on the roll signs.
Cool. It's perfect.
You're not the only one with a JFK Express GIF.
Save them as GIF instead of JPEG
Those images are already in GIF format. Should I say, keep reading the book? Of course it is possible to make GIF bullets without the grain. Actually I find it harder to make images grainy as Eric B has them than making them solid!
answer these questions, please.
1. During I think it was 1999 or 1998, a friend of mine told me that he saw an R-142 pass by 149th st-grand concourse. So is this true, that the 142's were running during 1999?
2. Are there any shows about the NYC subway on TV?
3. Why is it that the 'TA has to have repairs all over the subway?
see ya l8ter
-Sephiroth.
1. During I think it was 1999 or 1998, a friend of mine told me that he saw an R-142 pass by 149th st-grand concourse. So is this true, that the 142's were running during 1999?
Considering that they weren't delivered to the TA until December 1999 (and were tested on the Dyre Avenue line for some months before being run anywhere else), what do you think?
3. Why is it that the 'TA has to have repairs all over the subway?
Would you really prefer them to leave things broken?
Recommendation: engage brain before applying fingers to keyboard.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your friend might have seen an R-110, which resembles an R-142. (See this website for pictures of both models.) Otherwise, he has his dates mixed up.
I believe the R110A was confined to the yard at that time, and it still is, IIRC. It's undergoing a massive overhaul so it can run with R142 cars, like the R11's did in the mid 1960's.
The R11's ran with R142's in the 1960's? Impressive, I must say.
3. Why is it that the 'TA has to have repairs all over the subway?
Because that is where the equipment is located. It is in the nature of things to wear out. Nothing that is built is permanent unless maintained -- and sometimes not even then. Is there some place else that you would rather they did the repairs?
1. Yes, they were delivered in late 1999....he may have seen the test train.
2. Transit Transit is on WNYE at 3:30 PM Saturdays, a new show each month. There have been several documentaries on A&E and the Learning Channel about the subway system.
3. Age. Something is always in need of repair. The system also uses highly mechanical, labor intensive technology which requires constant maintenance, which the system learned the hard way by deffering it throughout the 1960's and 70's.
so i see.
forget about question 3.
The Onion, the fake newspaper, has an article 98 Percent Of U.S. Commuters Favor Public Transportation For Others which is pretty funny. While it is totally made up, it unfortunately is probably the real mindset of the country. Ya'll think so?
No, I wish more people would drive to work so my train would be less crowded. More people should take public transporation into Manhattan on Saturday nights, though, so I can find a parking space more easily.
:)
>>>No, I wish more people would drive to work so my train would be less crowded.<<<
No, it wouldn't. The reduced passenger load would result not in more room, but in less trains. In the interest of cost-savings, net-net you would see no gain in comfort and a loss in frequency!
(Even August Belmont said that you can't make money unless the trains are packed at rush-hour. Same concept now, although actually "making money" is no longer an option.)
This is the logic behind having the TBTA tolls subsidize the subways. My economics professor, Alfred Kahn, supported this 30 years ago.
Outside of NYC, absolutely.
I tried to figure this one out on my own and I'm just stumped. I even checked the Subway Film, Docs and TV site, however the movie in question is not listed. The movie I'm talking about is called "FRESH".It came out sometime in the mid 1990's. For the most part it appears to take place in Brooklyn, NY. In the movie there are two subway scenes shot at the same spot(a daytime and nightime shot). Before I continue I must state that I'm aware of Hollywoods tendency to make people, places and things appear different from what they actually are. The daytime scene shows a train of R40Ms/R42s rounding a lower level elevated turn spliting off from a pair of higher level elevated tracks. At first I thought hey that's an M train leaving Broadway headed for Metropolitan Ave. But after checking some pictures of the Broadway/Myrtle Ave intersection, the M train tracks split off on the same level from the J and Z train tracks. After racking my brain, I came up with one possibility. This scene may have been shot at the spot where Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park A trains split off from Liberty Ave in Queens and Hollywood simply reversed it.
If anyone out there has this movie, find that scene(it's about midway in the movie), look at it very carefully and tell me what you think.
Perhaps it's the (M) heading towards Myrtle from Metropolitan, as opposed to heading towards Metropolitan? There is a lower level elevated turn splitting from a pair of higher-elevated tracks between Myrtle Ave & Central Ave stations on the (M).
Sounds to me like the turnoff the "F" makes from underneath the "D" at West 8th St. Brooklyn....
You might be right... I've never seen the movie so I don't know for sure myself.
Is that the movie with that little kid and Samuel L. Jackson?
If so what part of Brooklyn was that supposed to be taking place?
Great actor that child and if it's the movie I'm thinking about, great innercity story. Sorry about your question, I don't know.
Are there fare discounts for NYC residents on welfare? I was reading the article in the Monday times about the lives of the low-income residents of NYC, and realized that it didn't once mention the role of transit in the lives of these people. My point is, these people have to get to work, go to school, and shop. Are these people helped in any way by fare discounts on the MTA? I know there are fare discounts for the elderly and the disabled, but what about general low-income residents? If there is not such a system arranged now, I think one should be implemented immediately. Free metrocards to all members of low-income families would prove extremely valuable for them. They would be more able to find work in different parts of the city, therefore increasing the job market that they can look for work in. They would also be able to take mass transit to shop in lower priced discount stores that might not be available where they live. Is there such a program? If there already is, I apologize for ranting, but if not, there should be!!
Hey buddy, if you are willing to pay for the Metrocards for these people, feel free to go to your local subway station, purchase whatever quantity you'd like, and start handing them out.
YES
i think that the disabled low income & welfare reciepents all should recieve discounts & or half fare on the entire transportation system!
this includes senior citizens especially those on limited fixed incomes. count me in as being all for this thank you .
If you want to do that, then you need to set an across-the-board income-based fare. That's not going to happen, as it's totally impractical. It stops at diabled/elderly regardless of income, and should stay that way.
-Hank
How is that totally impractical? There are a lot of things that are already based on income, there's no reason that Metrocards can't be distributed as a workfare benefit. It makes much more sense than giving a reduced fare metrocard to a Park Avenue millionaire just because he/she has passed a magic age.
There are a lot of things that are already based on income, there's no reason that Metrocards can't be distributed as a workfare benefit. It makes much more sense than giving a reduced fare metrocard to a Park Avenue millionaire just because he/she has passed a magic age.
Federal rules require NYCT to give the Park Avenue millionaire a reduced fare MC.
And that's every reason why I'm a socialist.
lets not go there.. (no, im not a socialist, im a capitalist pig)
lets not go there.. (no, im not a socialist, im a capitalist pig)
I thought I'm the capitalist pig here. You're the capitalist moose.
a pig VS a moose !! it used to be rocket j squirrel & bullwinkle the moose vs boris & natasa!!
good one.. i like that.. think ill use that term to describe myself from now on.
Ay, Lefty, If you are a "capitalist pig" and John is a socialist, why don't you two swap handles?
Because then we'll chage you an extra $3.50/ride because you can afford it.
-Hank
No.
The money would come out of their welfare check. If they need to get to workfare assignments, they'll use it, if they don't, they don't deserve the money.
well who said it is fair living in the usa these days... look at florida for example !!
look at florida for example !!
You mean America's Whang, right?
whatever .....
You don't say if you're familiar with the NYC fare structure (and since you're posting from a .ca address, I'll assume you aren't).
There is a flat fare which starts at $1.50 and includes a free transfer, so you can get just about anywhere within NYC for that price. There is a discount for purchases of $15 and up which brings the per-ride price down to $1.36.
There are also unlimited-ride time-based cards, starting at $4 for one day (a win if you're making more than 2 trips, such as your shopping example). The 7-day card is $17, and the 30-day card is $63.
All pricing above from CitySearch.com.
assumption granted, but im from the bronx and i know the fare structure, and know that there is reduced fare for seniors and disabled people (and students).. it seems that the case is that there is no reduced fare for lower-income residents of NY.. that should be changed.. if not FREE fare, then reduced fare..
No, there shouldn't. Unless you want to base the fare totally on need, in which case users with higher incomes (such as you) pay more to FURTHER subsidize the rides of others.
-Hank
Sounds fair to me. The more you make, the more responsibility you have to take care of your fellow man.
[Sounds fair to me. The more you make, the more responsibility you have to take care of your fellow man. ]
So I take that you hardly make anything and are just waiting for someone to take care of you. Let us know what major charities you support or perhaps you buy the Metrocards for the welfare people in your building.
Arti
I'm not rich and I don't want anyone helping me with their handout. I plan on being very successful and when I'm rolling in the dough, I'm going to keep the money I earned for myself. Let everyone else earn their money the same way as me.
>>> I plan on being very successful and when I'm rolling in the dough, I'm going to keep the money I earned for myself. Let everyone else earn their money the same way as me. <<<
Another compassionate conservative (Calcutta style) heard from.
Tom
i support free montly transcards for all disabled senior citizens welfare reciepents workfare workers doing forced workfare slavery etc..
this is in all 50 states it is only right to do the right thing in this. i dont care what personal attacks i will take from standing firm & strong on this. & especially in atlanta !!
Forced workfare slavery?
Can't they stay home and not work if they don't feel like getting paid?
I'm not a conservative, I'm a moderate. I went back and read my post and it did sound a little too conservative. I should have added that I just don't want the gov't telling me where my money should go. I would give plenty of money to charities for the disfortunate, I give some now, but it would be my choice where the money goes and not anyone else's.
The more you make, the more responsibility you have to take care of your fellow man.
That's one of the justifications for higher taxes on people with higher incomes. In addition to seeing huge sums of money going to support the government in the lifestyle to which it's become accustomed, they take a higher percentage of my income than they probably do of yours.
If wealthier people pay more in taxes and receive identical (or lesser) services (how many millionaires do you see in line at the public health clinics?), how about giving them a greater say in how the government is run? I bet you don't like that idea...
Going in the other direction, how about a flat tax rate across the board? Everybody pays the same percentage tax, and the government still gets more money from wealthier people.
-- greetings from the 39.6% tax bracket
[Going in the other direction, how about a flat tax rate across the board? ]
In some counties it works quite successfully without much public complaint.
Arti
oh yes i am familiar with the NYC fare structure ( not just because i am posting from the western united states etc )
But i will add this to the rest of the posts as well
I BOTH THINK & BELIEVE THAT WELFARE RECIEPENTS SHOULD RIDE FOR FREE!!
( excuse me )... this includes all rail & bus systems as well !!
Maybe you wouldn't mind moving to NYC and paying all the taxes and fare hikes to support your proposed plan. My paycheck is already shrinking enough all the time with everything else that is being done to support welfare/workfare. I'm not against supporting people who need this kind of help, but you can't help everyone in everyway. I have to pay $1.50 to ride and so should everyone else that's not protected by federally mandated provisions.
It can't be terribly hard to find work in such a big city. McDonalds hires people at a pretty rapid rate. Sometimes you'll have to settle for burger flipping until your dream job comes along.
I don't think the MTA will lend a helping hand to anyone other than those who Washington mandates that kind of assistance.
Shawn.
Sure, along with food stamps now I'll be able to subsidize someone's transportation more than I do now. Next you'll want free gasoline for those on welfare. How about free railfan videos for those on welfare, salaam?
Subsidizing transit for low-income people would have precedent of a sort. In some parts of the country, where there is little or no transit, state or county welfare authorities subsidize car purchases for low-income people in order to help them get to work. Obviously, car costs are a lot higher than transit costs, so there's more of a need for subsidies, but at least the idea is not wholly out of left field.
oh yes i am familiar with the NYC fare structure ( not just because i am posting from the western united states etc )
But i will add this to the rest of the posts as well
I BOTH THINK & BELIEVE THAT WELFARE RECIEPENTS SHOULD RIDE FOR FREE!!
( excuse me )... this includes all rail & bus systems as well !!
i do hope now that this makes my position crystal clear on this issue!!
and a follow up to this right on post ..
if you are going to FORCE welfare reciepents to do FORCED WORKFARE &
doing non janitor "SLAVE" non union protected forced labor the least
you could do for them is to give them Free Transcards & monthly unlimited ones at that!! This is only fair, but i know SOME of you out here hate being honest & fair & your posts prove this to be so!
thats what i said FORCED WORKFARE & SLAVE labor & i stand firm on that if you disagree fine with me but what i said stands & for the truth
especially with FORCED WORKFARE on subway stations , cars ,SLAVE labor & other sites ! the least thing could be done is to give them FREE MONTHLY TRANSCARDS & once again i stand firmly on the side of what is right & i wont back down on this!! that is what makes me honest above board straight & good & no i do not hate the welfare reciepents homeless & the disabled unlike some folks who do HATE them & speak for themselves only thank you !!
Welfare recipients are supposed to be reimbursed for any transportation costs related to required activities such as workfare jobs and job search activities. Everyone on Medicaid (and that includes everyone on public assistance as well as other poor disabled, elderly, and working people) get reimbursed for travel to medical treatment, which can add up if, for example, they are on dialysis and don't live near a dialysis facility. (Carfare reimbursement is essential upstate, where recipients have to use cars to get to mandatory meetings, programs, and activities.)
I agree that it would good idea to include MetroCards as a transitional benefit (like transitional Medicaid and day care) as part of a welfare-to-work program if not for all low-income New Yorkers. The problem will be finding the money to pay for it. Perhaps NY State can use some of its federal welfare block grant surplus.
An easy way to do it would be to provide TransitCheks, either deducted from one's benefits or, in case of workfare, paid by the employer. The latter is more justifiable, since these people will probably have to take transit to get to work, whereas those who don't work should be given the choice of what to do with their $63/mo.
Those who don't work, unless they are disabled, should get nothing except that necessary to keep them from starving.
Unless they want to work and the government can't find any for them.
>>> I know there are fare discounts for the elderly and the disabled, but what about general low-income residents? <<<
A great theoretical idea, but how would you determine who should receive the economic discounts? Would there be a whole new bureaucracy created to determine who qualified? Would an eighteen year old student with no independent income but being supported by his parents qualify? What about the situation where a woman (or man) who has no independent income lives with someone (either her husband or a friend) who has a high income?
It might be possible for a welfare agency to issue some kind of a voucher for a Metrocard in certain circumstances, but a general plan to scale the fares according to income is much too extreme.
Tom
They're already helped by the subsidies the system recieves that keep it affordable for everyone.
-Hank
Are there fare discounts for NYC residents on welfare? I was reading the article in the Monday times about the lives of the
low-income residents of NYC, and realized that it didn't once mention the role of transit in the lives of these people. My point is, these people have to get to work, go to school, and shop. Are these people helped in any way by fare discounts on the MTA? I know there are fare discounts for the elderly and the disabled, but what about general low-income residents? If there is not such a system arranged now, I think one should be implemented immediately. Free metrocards to all members of low-income families would prove extremely valuable for them. They would be more able to find work in different parts of the
city, therefore increasing the job market that they can look for work in. They would also be able to take mass transit to shop in lower priced discount stores that might not be available where they live. Is there such a program? If there already is, I apologize for ranting, but if not, there should be!!
What you propose is not without some merit, but don't expect to see it implemented anytime soon. The MTA offers discounts for the elderly and disabled not because it wants to out of the goodness of its corporate heart, but because federal regulations make it do so. It's safe to assume that there'd be no discounts without this compulsion. And since federal regulations do not require discounts for low-income people, none will be offered.
No. Freeloaders pay the same amount that working people do. My taxes are already paying for their food and shelter. Let' em pay the @#$!% whole fare.
I definately support that. Poorer people rely heavily on transit, and should get discounts (Reduced Fare MC, or even free Metrocards).
At least in NYC the service is decent, in the poor areas of LI it's alot harder and more expensive to get around, and the LIRR is very choosy who they give discounts to.
Two CP Rail locos ran down about at about 2:45AM with no R142's or anything else for that matter. It dosen't look like there will be any R142's delivered today. I'll keep a look out anyway. Is it possible that two seperate CP Rail runs come down on Monday mornings? Last weeks Monday delivery was at 5:30AM.
Shawn.
The Daily News has an article on the proposed W line.
Thanks Chuchubob,
avid
Finally. I saw this on NY1, both their own report and their "In the papers" segment. Meanwhile, Newsday is just getting around to last week's V line/63rd St. change.
Newsday used to be the #1 paper for subway information. I remember when Jim Dwyer introduced is "in the subway" articles twice a week.
I love the phrase "the plan will have to meet with public approval". Given that the city has no choice but to shut the north side tracks, what possible alternative plan could anyone propose which would be more favorable than the present one?
It's a done deed, even before the hearings even begin.
This stupid planning really makes me angry. The poor people of Chinatown will feel this at it's brunt. All these high paid planners have nothing to show for the people of Chinatown.
Lets think of all the things that should've happened, but didn't. Just think, if we started building a new tunnel to replace the Manny B tracks years ago, it would be done by now. If the 2nd ave subway was built, the Lex would be alot smoother. But growth is slowed by politics, NIMBY's, lawyers, and too much fiscal conservatism.
Every hear the phrase "just get it done"?
With today's engineering, it's as easy as it sounds, just stop everyone that gets in your way.
Witness the new subway systems in Hong Kong, Shanghai, as well as the beautiful new Pudong area which has sprung up faster than it took to build the 63rd street connector.
They feel (the politicians) that most of the people in Chinatown can t vote, so they ignore them. The Hong Kong Subway was built by private funds.
To be fair, the 63rd St. Connector could have been built in a shorter time only if subway service had been suspended on both the existing 63rd St line and the Queens Blvd. corridor. The 63rd St line (the existing line) had its roadbed rebuilt, and the Queens Blvd. corridor was widened even as subway service continued.
The only people who will suffer are those who own businesses right by the Chrystie/Grand St crossing. Nobody from Brooklyn will shop there anymore, because all their trains will be transferred over to Canal/Broadway.
Unfortunatley, there's nothing that can be done to prevent this.
That is the area I'm worried about. The TA and the state DOT could care less they are messing up hard working peoples' lives.
In a more social conscious country, the lower roadway would have been closed and the Chrystie tracks would be connected to the H tracks.
We'd ban private cars from the bridge upper roadway.
Personally I think everything that is non essential, such as people who drive to the city to shop or see tourist attraction (and I know a few), should be banned. Only commercial vehicles should be allowed into Manhattan. That would be all government services, delivery and shipping services, and anything vital to Manhattan functioning.
I see too many suburbanites in their SUV's driving in Manhattan, and these people should not be allowed because they are wasting space.
In Singapore, they have a similar practice, and it works quite well.
There are other cities in Europe, even South America, that limit the amount of vehicles allowed in the city. Unfortunately this is car-loving America, and until we change our modes of transport like everyone else, car drivers keep their rights at the expense of us transit riders (and small transit based businesses).
I nominate Gene Russianoff with the quote of the day: (from the article)
"It's already a challenge to navigate the subways," said Gene Russianoff of the Straphangers Campaign. "I am going to start packing a compass."
More changes unveiled,
ENI MEANEY MINI MO
Peace,
ANDEE
Notice that the article states that the BMT tracks over the MB will remain open only until the IND tracks re-open.
Does the author know something or is he assuming?
While the article states the reroutes will eliminate convienent transfers to the ACE at w4th, it neglects to mention that the Broadway line is much more convienent for x-fers to the 4/5/6 and 1/2/3/9 lines, and a transfer to the ACE at Times Sq. is still possible. All in all, the Broadwayn line is a better alternative for South Brooklyn BMT riders, if service on the bridge is present. It will also reduce crowding on the 4/5 lines coming to/from Brooklyn.
I had a chance to ride Baltimore's subway this weekend. I found it to be a really nice line, with clean and attractive stations, and I couldn't help but wondering if there were any plans to expand this one-line system. I have no idea what Baltimore needs or doesn't need, I'm just looking at it from a subway fan point of view. I did notice that I-695 has a rather large median as if it was built so that rail line could be added if it was ever necessary. I know some want to start Sunday service on the line, but that's all I know.
Michalovic
The only long-term expansion plan is a possible extension from Hopkins to North Avenue and Broadway in lower Northeast Baltimore. A large bus/LRV transfer station would be built and a LRV line to White Marsh.
This is VERY long term and like the Second Avenue Subeay may not be built in our liftimes.
Money is being sought to begin Sunday operation next year. This is in the MTA's Five Year plan.
On the LRT front, a large carhouse is under construction at Cromwell. This will augment North Avenue, currently very space constricted. It is expected that this new facility will open in late 2001 or early 2002. The initial construction can be viewed either from the platform and parking lots, or from the northbound lanes of I-97. This will give the Baltimore area 3 active carhouses.
Why doesn't the Baltimore subway currently operate on Sundays? Is there not enough ridership to warrant it?
Money.
With the 50% farebox recovery requirement (Courtesy of the Maryland General Assembly, now (2000) reduced to 40%), the cost of staffing requirements (Train Operators, Station Agents, Supervisors) exceeded by a wide margin the revenue received on a Sunday, particularly a non-sports Sunday. The MTA is asking for a operating budget that will allow Sunday operation in 2001.
Railpace, December, has 3 nice looking cars that look like they are ready to go back in service ;-)
Mr t
Hello,
I read the article today on Daily News' Web Site regarding the new W train, and a plan which might wreck havoc for commuters until they get used to the changes!! (Thanks to chuchubob for letting us know about it)
For those of you that haven't read the story, here is a summary of changes that might go into effect next summer, when Manhattan Bridge construction work finishes on the BMT tracks and moves to the IND tracks:
- B and D trains from the Bronx would now terminate at 34 Street/Herald Square.
- A new line, the W, would operate from Ditmars Blvd, Astoria, under Broadway, over the Bridge, and then via the B tracks to Coney Island.
- Eliminating confusion regarding where the Q would go as a result of the new 63rd Street Connector: There would be two Q trains, probably one local and one express, operating over the line currently served by the D. They would be sent over the bridge, under Broadway, and terminate at 57 Street/7 Avenue.
- A new S train would be created from Broadway/Lafayette Streets to Grand Street.
This is taken right out of the daily news article.
What do I personally think? Well, if Manhattan Bridge construction is moving to the IND tracks, then terminating B and D service at 34th Street is the only logical choice. (You wouldn't want to send them over the F lines, obviously.) In addition, this means that Q trains would have to run at all times, and be extended from Brighton Beach to Coney Island. Furthermore, they make no mention of whether or not the N train will run over the Bridge or through the Montague St Tunnel like it does now. Finally, they say a second shuttle train may be created from Broadway/Lafayette to 21 Street/Queensbridge. This will do well until the F train is rerouted, at which time the 63rd Street tunnel stops would all be taken care of.
Here's what I would do IF I WAS IN CHARGE of setting up routes:
- N trains would operate the same way they do now - operate local in Queens, local in Manhattan, run via the Montague Street tunnel, and run express on fourth avenue depending on the time of day.
- Have a Q train that would run all times, running express in Manhattan and local in Brooklyn, terminating at Coney Island. Q trains would run via the Manhattan Bridge and would stop at DeKalb Avenue.
- The second Q train would show a diamond Q sign, and would operate rush hours and middays, running express in Manhattan and Brooklyn. These trains would run over the bridge, would NOT stop at DeKalb Avenue, and would terminate at Brighton Beach.
- At 57 Street/7 Avenue, a good setup during weekdays would be to have the Q local to Coney Island start from one track and the Q express to Brighton Beach start from the other track (just like the #7 does).
- The new W would run express in Queens, peak direction only, and run express in Manhattan. W trains would run over the bridge, would NOT stop at DeKalb Avenue, and would operate express Pacific Street-36 Street.
Ideas or comments?
Hello again,
Before you start crowding on me, here's a correction to my section of the post called "what I would do IF I WAS IN CHARGE of setting up routes" - The Q local and Q express would both stop at DeKalb Avenue.
Just realized you can't send trains from the DeKalb Avenue bypass to the Brighton line.... sorry for that.
- Jose
It was once possible, before the mid-1950's track re-configuration. The Banker's specials which ran along the Brighton express usued to bypass Dekalb.
I'll repost my reroute ideas again for discussion:
B and D trains: both terminating at 34th St.
N: Ditmars Blvd. to Coney Island via Sea Beach, 4th Ave exp., bypass Dekalb (weekdays), across bridge, via Bway express to 34th St., switch to local, then thru 60th St. tunnel to Astoria, all times except nights, when it would make all local stops via tunnel.
Q. 57th/7th to Brighton Beach via Bway exp., bridge, and Brighton exp. Weekdays 6AM to 10PM
R. Identical to it's current route
T. Coney Island to 57th 7th via West End, 4th Ave. exp, bypass Dekalb (all times), via bridge and Bway exp, all times except nights.
W. From Coney Island to Queensboro Plaza via Brighton local, tunnel, Bway local, and 60th St. tube to Queens. Extended to Astoria rush hours.
M. Metropolitan Ave. to Chambers St. only. Weekdays.
The elimination of the M, (it's gonna happen some day) through Dekalb frees up additional capacity for more W and R trains, which unlike the M run in lower AND midtown Manhattan. With only 1/2 a bridge to work with, Broadway service should be givven 100% of the Dekalb Ave. corridor's capacity.
So if you do this, how do people from south Brooklyn then get to Nassau St line destinations?
-Hank
Given the close proximity of Nassau St. to the two IRT branches and the Broadway BMT, let them walk. They can change between most lines at Atlantic/Pacific or DeKalb to get them to the next closest station. Or, change from the Broadway to the Nassau at Canal St. (which assuming the bridge changed over can be done from either the 'express' or 'local' platforms...
IRT lines run paralell to Nassau St:
Broad St - 2 or 3 to Wall St. (1 block away)
Fulton St - 2/3/4/5 to Fulton (basically the same station)
Chambers St - 4/5 to Brooklyn Bridge
You could also change to the J/Z at Canal from the N/Q/T lines. The amount of people displaced by the lack of Nassau St. service is negligble, given the rather limited crowding I see on M trains in tha AM rush.
An ammendment to my proposal:
V: Continental Ave to Grand St. via Sixth Ave. local, 63rd. St and Queens Blvd. local, weekdays 6AM to 11PM. This would require a crossover being built just north of Grand St. No big deal.
If they start planning to build it now, they might have it done in 10 years if you're lucky :) I serious doubt they will start building all these provisions for something that is supposed to be "temporary." But then again temporary solutions seem to become permanent ones.
Shawn.
Question about your W proposal, Chris - if it terminates at Queensboro Plaza all times except rush hours, wouldn't it create tie-ups on the N line, which will then have to use only one track in the station during that time?
Now that I think about it, perhaps the idea would work if Queens-bound N trains got priority over Manhattan-bound N trains when using that single track- that way the R and W trains would not get tied up from behind.
What would probably happen is that W trains would terminate on the upper level of Queensboro Plaza then switch onto the middle track just south of Beebe Avenue. There they would reverse direction and arrive on the lower level of QBP and go into service.
Good idea - it might require a "non-revenue" punch at Queensboro Plaza, but that would work.
The B train terminated at Queensboro Plaza for 25 years in 86-88. During the mid-day hours, there really is't any tie-up.
The B train terminated at Queensboro Plaza for 2.5 years in 86-88. During the mid-day hours, there really isn't any tie-up.
I think the N should stay on the express tracks until 57th St. Would there be advantages there would be to having N trains stop at 49th Street with the R and W trains already stopping there?
All Queens-bound express traains have always switched over to the local tracks north of 34th so as to not bottleneck trains which would use 57th/7th as a terminal. The B did this in 1986-88. Astoria-bound Brighton line trains did it for decades prior to 1967.
The short-lived N express in 1990 did the same.
Without commenting on your other proposals -- run the M to Broad. Fulton is a major transfer point.
If Broad St. can handle the turnaround of J/M AND Z trains during the rush hour, then I'd say this was a wise alteration of my proposal.
The tunnel tracks through Dekalb are not being usually to capacity now, even with the M (and the Never and the Rarely) all on track 2 (Manhattan bound) and track 1 (southbound). Thus, if you want full capacity through Dekalb, you are not going to achieve it by eliminating the M. No way, until MB is fully restored, can Dekalb be used to maximum capacity, because there are two express tracks at Dekalb (track 4 and the by-pass track) that merge into one for the Broadway express.
I meant maximum potential capacity Dekalb could handle with only 2 bridge tracks. All of it should be dedicated to the Broadway line.
Eliminating the M allows for an increase of Broadway local service (R and W in my proposal). I think 12 R and 12 W trains per hour would suffice. Could the tunnel handle an additional 8 M trains on top of this?
Depending on the signalling, I suppose the tunnel could handle 6 M trains per hour (12 R + 12 W + 6 M = 30 tph). As you well know, there is the equipment shortage...... I would modify your proposal to extending the Q express via 63rd all the way to Jamaica (replacing some of the F trains), the W local via 63rd to Forest Hills instead of the V (thus saving some equipment), N and other Brighton train to Astoria or Queensboro Plaza.
The Daily News should do more fact checking.
-Hank
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
I told ya'll this was going to happen, and all I was met with was opposition!
Happy Holidays, Especially to TD!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk
Nobody said your "scoop" wasn't going to come true. What we said was that it wasn't final and it still isnt. IIRC, your "scoop" stated the W would run through the tunnel and the N would run on the bridge.
Check out www.newsday.com Today's Suffolk edition of the printed paper has a large article buried after the editorial page about it. I guess its coming.
Sorry I don't know how to insert a link to the article like SUBWAYSURF
does with D-N articles and others do with other papers.
Then I'll do it for you,
V TRAIN/NEWSDAY
Peace,
ANDEE
As I suspected, people at the local stops in Queens: 65th, 46th, Northern Blvd, 36th, and Steinway, will not benefit from the 63rd tunnel, as the V and R will take them directly to Queens Plaza.
All local riders on Queens will benefit by a doubling of Manhattan bound direct service, with V trains replacing the useless G. Trains will be less crowded because V trains will be 600' as opposed to the G's current 450'.
It's gonna help everyone. Not as much as another line, but it'll be better than it is now.
"The new line would require new trains. Some 100 of the model R143 trains..."
Umm... where do they get this idea? And aren't the R143s going to the L?
"The V train plan fails to make use of one of the subway system's long-neglected assets, the N express tracks on Broadway..."
And you would think they have heard about the Manhattan Bridge plan already, not to mention the fact that there's no Broadway-63 St or Broadway connection.
"...Court Square...From there, straphangers could transfer to the V and R locals. Unclear if E trains would continue to stop at Court Square."
No comment.
I can just see it now. Someone's gonna start screaming that their line should get the R143's because there's not enough already or their too old . Instead of the L getting the R143's to do CBTC testing and stuff they'll end up on every other line but the L. Maybe by 2010 we'll finally have a finalized plan for implementation of CBTC :)
The R143 order is for only 100 units, with the option for 112 more. Everyone will just have to wait for the R160's, which they should probably order now to get them here by 2010 :)
Shawn.
Yes, those 100 R143 cars will be assigned to the L. This will free up 100 R40/42 cars which will probably move to the N. That, in turn, will free up 100 R32's for Queens Blvd service.
Since not 1 single r143 is ready for tesing, it'll be a while until this happens ...
what a mix up this is. the v train sounds promissing but, unsure. it will create a new line that will run along the e, f route to sixth ave. replacing the f and running in the 63rd connecter. but, how is it gonna reduce the crowded lex ave. station on ef? it will also eliminat e the q line. if that happens then there will not be a brighton express. they should make it run along the NR lines in Broadway using the xpress tracks. it would make more sense, or just scrap the plans because it so far sounds useless.
It's not all that difficult to learn. Just tell your browser to show you the "source" display for a page that contains a link created by one of us. Use the same format, with whatever URL you want to link to, to create your own link. In Internet Explorer, you get to the source display by choosing "source" on the view menu. (Since the slightest typo can mess up a link, always use the preview feature to make sure your link came out right before posting any message here.)
According to www.news12.com - LI news, a train hit a pedestrian just ;east of Mineola at 7:05 AM disrupting service on Ronkonkoma,Pt. Jefferson and Oyster Bay Branches.
Feel bad for the engineer who must now face drug-testing, psychological counseling, etc. and the delayed commuters. But one less nitwit to deal with.
What the hell is going on with the LIRR? Do people have any common sense? I think police should man every crossing and hand out $1000 fines for people crossing in front of down gates!
If the death penalty does not deter these people, $1,000.00 tickets won't either.
About a year after the swap, I expect the Manhattan Bridge to fully open -- and to stay open for about six months until Pataki is re-elected and more cracks are discovered. What would THAT service plan be?
My guess is the B returns to the West End and the D to the Brigton, with the N and Q on the Broadway Express. But would they have the cars to have the Q and V overlap? Perhaps at that point they'll run the Q through to Broadway via 63rd St.
I'd think it will take longer.....anbout 2-3 years before we finally see all tracks open. Hopefully by then enough R143's will be in service to accomodate everyone.
The engineer in charge at NYC has stated that all work will be completed by Summer of 2004. I truly hope the city does the right thing with this. We do need a fully functional Broadway service.
Maybe they could lease the track level to TBTA, and give TBTA the right to effect repairs...
Of course, I'm not being entirely fair. Didn't the city do a very good job of repairing the Williamburg bridge and allowing J service to resume. As I recall, they finished ahead of schedule...
The Willy-B job was done under contract by Parsons Corporation, a multi-national, privately-held engineering company based in Pasadena, CA.
I'd read at one time that US Steel Corp was involved, then refused to finish work (or couldn't) - but this is a vague recollection, so I wouldn't want to swear on it.
There were also financial incentives to finish ahead of schedule. Will there be any in the upcoming Manny B project, or is the state doing the job itself? If so, I'll plan a full Manny B operation party.......for 2050.
I had a dream last night in which the Williamsburg Bridge was completely rebuilt from the ground up. New towers, new cables, the works. The kicker was that it was rebuilt as an exact duplicate of the original. And it was done very quickly.
I could have sworn the Manhattan Bridge was also rebuilt from the ground up as well in my dream - with the exact same track arrangement. Go figure.
many of us have met andee, but how do we know that he is really subway surf?... have any of us ever seen him post from his computer?... i feel i am qualified to raise this question of his identity, since andee, doug, thurston, wayne, sarge, trevor, mark w.,harry, and i think 2 other people were over my apartment and witnessed that i and heypaul are one and the same person...
come to think of it, how do i really know that doug is BMTman, or that mark w. is really mark w... and certainly there is cause for concern if the person some people met videotaping the subway system was the same person who posts as salaam allah...
when you really think of it, perhaps all subtalk posters are not real people but are replacements made from seed pods that arrived from outer space...
...yes human, you are correct. As a matter of fact the only reason I am on this god-forsaken planet is to fill up my flying saucer's fuel-tank (it's quite a bit of a gas-gussler as far as alien spaceships are concerned...:-)
The clone formerly known as BMTman
You wouldn't have that problem if you used interstellar mass transit.
Perhaps we can get the Vogons to build the Interglactal Second Ave. Spaceway!
SHHHH! don't let the cat out of the bag!
Peace,
ANDEE
So you were Subdude by the aliens? :-)
It would seem to the casual observerthat the collective "you" are suffering through an identical crisisisisis.Perhaps if you took a vote and then followed with several re-counts.
avid
a vote sounds like an excellent idea... could we enlist your services to make sure that no one with micro-chip implants behind their right ear will be allowed to vote, that is, after your own right ear has been checked to establish your credibility?
Excuse me for a minute...I have to go change into my religious garb
8-). ....LOL
Peace and Thanks,
ANDEE
Didn't we go through this whole business of will-the-real-heypaul-please-stand-up a while ago? You said you needed to go lie down for a while after all was said and done. Maybe take in a few R-1/9 compressor sounds while in your motorman's cab.:-) Just a thought.
I am sick of the NYCTA pretending that there is track work taking place on the Queens Blvd lines, so that they can save money. During a 52-week year, I would say that service in normal maybe 4 or 5 weekends per year. The rest of the year, forget about it.
Sometimes, all trains run local from Roosevelt to Queens Blvd. Sometimes, an E runs down the local track, because weekend service on the R is so poor, the city would rather inconvenience everyone, and make the express pick up local passengers, instead of running more R trains. But no matter what, they find a way to disrupt service, and make access to NYC difficult for Queens residents.
What I find suspicious, is that these re-routings are always due to track work between Roosevelt, and Queens Plaza. Why? Because passengers can not see the express track for a few stations, so if anyone were smart enought to question the city, they can just say the workers are down the tunnel, in the section not visible to the public.
Smart enough like I am every week, when I have to leave 15 min earlier knowing that there is no express service to the city for whatever contrived reason. And yes, I always let the conductor know that I know there is no track work taking place, and that we went local for no other reason than to save the city money. A shame.
Yes. Didn't you hear? They're going to blow up all the tunnels from Queens to Manhattan, just to make it harder for Queens residents to go to Manhattan.
-Hank
I know it sounds paranoid, but those of us who are the actual victims of these cost-saving measures know otherwise.
Truth is genius, the R train is always too slow to carry the large number of passengers on weekends by itself, as the G does not run to Continental on weekends, so the city just finds reasons to run E and F local, instead of paying for the G to go to Continental.
We'll see what happens this weekend. When Saturday rolls around, and I am sitting on a local E or F, and do not see any sign of track work being done, I will e-mail you, so you can go look for yourself.
There are no GOs scheduled for the Queens Blvd. line this weekend.
I believe that NYCTA and Los Angeles MTA are reading from the same playbook. Since August 25, service on the Red Line has been curtailed on the Wilshire-Western segment evenings after 8:00 pm and weekend mornings before 9:00 am for something called "Tunnel Maintenance Activities". During those hours, only shuttle service is provided from Wilshire-Western to Wilshire-Vermont. One is forced to transfer to a North Hollywood - Union Station train at Vermont-Wilshire. The MTA called these schedule "adjustments" "temporary", but here we are in December four months later, including a one-month strike, when "tunnel maintenance activities" could have taken place 24 hours a day.
Being lied to by government agencies - it's so common, it doesn't even register anymore.
Except the workers who would do the maintainance were on strike.
-Hank
Hank, you are right about the maintenance workers being on strike. I stand corrected. However, when the MTA announced the change in service, it was described as "temporary" and that it would last four to six weeks. Even discounting the strike, that time has passed. I believe their intention is a permanent service reduction for every evening and weekend early mornings.
There is track work. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. They may not be working on the actual tracks, but they are using them to keep work trains or equipment while they're not using it. They may also have to turn off the power so workers can safely get to the work area. They have to have a track adjancent to the 63st connector free for this purpose. Closing the local tracks (even one) would inconvenience people at those stops to a much greater extent than you with an extra 8 minute commute (yes, it is only 8 more minutes).
The actual work (recently) was the activation of the new signalling system for the 63st connector (which also replaced much of the old one on the existing tracks). Before that, it was the installation said system. Before that, it was the creation of the connector itself. It would have gone a lot faster if the entire Queens Independent Subway was shut down in that area, it would have been done years ago.
BTW: They are not saving money this way. Running trains local increases the time it takes for a round trip, requiring more trains and crews to keep the same headways. They also are causing wear on the switches. More tower operators and station personnel are required as well. They also use money on handouts and signs.
Dude, EVERY WEEK, the same location, and it is impossible to find a track worker. I know that there was work being done on the 63rd connector, you are not telling me anything I do not already know. But the truth is, the R on weekends is always delayed, and E and F trains are forced to pick up the slack. Try it one weekend. See what happens.
If the work is being done further up the line from where you got on, you won't see it.
-Hank
So they're only closing the express track so that they can have a work train sitting in the area to serve as a base for construction activities in the 63rd Street connector? If that is the case and they must have a work train in the area, why can't it sit in the station at 21st Street or just east of the station at the beginning of the connector instead of blocking traffic?
Because the construction blocks access from that area?
-Hank
Damn! He's stumbled on the secret!
OK folks, looks like we're going to have to move the wild weekend
parties from the QB cutoff to someplace less conspicuous.
The party spots are being shuffled around next year. The Manhattan TA night club is being moved from the Manhattan Bridge-Broadway approach to the Sixth Avenue approach. Queens partygoers will be in the IND Crosstown tunnel between Queens Plaza and Court Square instead of the Northern Blvd. cutoff, the advantage being that it can stay open 24 hours once they get the G out of the way. The Manhattan spot is nicer, though, with that terrace over the water on the side of the bridge.
No GO's scheduled for this weekend? We'll see what happens when Saturday rolls around. And even if we get full service this weekend, we'll pay the price for many weekends to come after this one.
In fact, they did the same stunt on the 7 line a few weeks ago. NO MANHATTAN SERVICE. NO LOCAL SERVICE between WOODSIDE and QUEENSBORO. This time, there was no stretch of underground track where anyone could say, "they're down there working". The city just put up a red flag on the tracks, inconvenienced everyone, and had absolutely nothing going on.
Why would the city do this? Less motormen on duty=less payroll. Less token clerks on duty=less payroll.
Did you look at the scaffolding on the lower level at Queensboro Plaza?
-Hank
All kidding aside, if you were a member of the NYD ERA
you'd be getting in the monthly newsletter a "construction
forecast". From this I learned that the project you mentioned
on the #7 was to replace the broken glass and other improvements
on the lower level of QBP. Last weekend's GO on the QB line
was for signal equipment installation. This weekend is clear.
Next weekend there will be construction between Roosevelt and
Continental to replace crumbling catwalks.
The notion that the TA deliberately schedules and then doesn't
execute work in order to cut service and save money is a bit
paranoid. Well, maybe not. Maybe everyone IS out to get you?
First off, the "city" doesn't do any of this - the state does!
Had you gone to any of the booths that are normally open on the weekend, you would have found them staffed as normal. Had you gone out to Main St, you would have found every crew that has a job that day reporting as usual - just doing less work. So in actuality, it costs them more because we get paid the same for less work.
Um, no, the Transit Authority, independent of the state or city govewrnments, schedules the repair work needed when needed. They try not to conflict with other repair work, ie, if they're working on the Flushing IRT between Queensboro Plaza and Manhattan, they won't be working on the Astoria line.
-Hank
I gather you never rode any of the 4th Avenue lines during the 1986-87 roadway rebuild when some/all of the tracks were unballasted for weeks and months and all traffic was restricted to crawling along at 5mph. That was 24/7 disruption for a year if not longer. I explained to more than one smartass who bitched "there wasn't anything going on cuz there aren't any guys on the tracks" why the trains had to go slow. "Well they should have guys out anyway so we know."
I think NYCT has done (and will continue to do) plenty of boneheaded things, but they do try to keep total service shutdowns to a minimum. It sure isn't pretty when QB gets held up, but just imagine how horrible things would be if they just shut down the whole line for a week or two to do what they routinely do over the course of a few weekends.
Just north of 72th Street on the northbound 1/9 there has been a section of skeletonized track for like two months now. Trains are restricted to 10mph. Is there a reason behind just leaving it like that?
Shawn.
The reason is solely to inconvenice Queens Blvd riders and personally affront LuchAAA (who started this thread) and his ancestry.
North, or south? It may have something to do with the platform expansion at the station.
-Hank
Probably north. Northbound trains still come barrelling into that station as they always have. I was in that area in October, and there was digging going on from street level north of 72nd St. The median along Broadway was blocked off. However, I didn't ride on that line north of 72nd St. - one of the very few times that has happened during my recent visits to the city.
With all this discussion about local versus express efficiency, I feel compelled to add my cent:
Yesterday I boarded a Manhattan-bound 'B' at Pacific Street. Across the platform was a Slant on the 'N'. The 'B' did its usual crawl over the Bridge, long wait for non-connection at West 4th and express tunnel dash. I got off at 42nd, walked through the long (and cluttered with illegal vendors) transfer tunnel, and had ample waiting time to walk the entire length of the 5th Avenue platform until the Flushing-bound '7' came.
As we approached Queensboro, I could see through the front window the unmistakable silhouette of an ascending-from-portal Slant approaching the Plaza itself. Given that Slants on the 'N' are far and few between on the weekend, it seems fair to conclude that's the same train I saw at Pacific!
Apparently it takes the same amount of time to get between the two points the way I went, and on the 'N', even on its slow, local tunnel/downtown/34th Street-boarding shopping crowds run. Either that or there were two Slants in a row- highly unlikely!
That was a fluke. The bridge is faster. And 2 slant N's in a row is not that unusual.
I'd be suspicious of this without checking car numbers. I've seen three Slanters in a row on the N. While they may not hold down the majority of the car types on this line, their placement into service seems to be random.
Here's an alternative way of estimating it, without doing the actual ride: According to the NYCT schedules, rush hour B trains take 17 minutes to go from 36 Street to Grand St. Rush hour N trains take 16 minutes to go from 36 Street to Whitehall. The N has a slightly longer routing with three additional stops. From this, one could conclude the tunnel is faster.
That's funny, because I saw an R32 N leaving the station on Saturday at QBP on Manhattan bound 7. Got on a B right away at 42nd. It was a crawl across the bridge, and when we pulled into 36th, the N was just pulling out and it was an R32!
Could it have been the same train?
This little tale relates the fact that you get in more trouble for refusing stupid orders than following them and having things go wrong.
**********************************************************************
Today; We do exactly what we are told, over.
Over the years, the FRA has attempted to enforce proper radio procedures on America's railroads. Some railroads likewise, have forced the issue as well. The
use of the word "over" after completing a transmission that a response is expected, the word "out" after a transmission when the communication is complete and no response is expected. Never, are "over" and "out" to be used together. Also, railroad name or initials are to be used when beginning a broadcast such as "CNICtrain GLME to Chicago South over."
I understand the reasoning behind this and have no arguments with it. I really do attempt to follow procedures. Once in awhile I go astray, but overall, I would say I'm pretty well in compliance. Even when I make a sarcastic remark, I'll say over,
or to indicate I don't wish to deal with some official that has taken
exception to what I have said, I'll use "out" instead, and usually in a rather unpleasant tone of voice. They may get me for sarcasm, but at least it will be in compliance with proper radio proceedure.
Now over the years, I've always said that the best way to make the big money on the railroad is to do exactly what we have been instructed to by those that are in
charge and oh so much smarter than those of us that are merely the help. On the night in question, we followed instructions to the letter. As a result, there was
a major episode, and I have the pictures to prove it.
This was during my days at the MoPac. It was fall of 1981 and I was working as the Fireman on the Heights Run. This was essentially a local that worked between Yard Center and Chicago Heights. We did some industry work enroute, delivered cars to the EJ&E at Chicago Heights, pulled their deliveries to us
and returned to Yard Center. That is, if we didn't go dead on the hours first or get recrewed to cut overtime and cabbed back instead.
Delivering to the EJ&E involved a long back-up move of about a mile over four road crossings. We often had to make two deliveries as we had so many cars, we had to deliver to the interchange tracks on both sides of their double track
main line. These deliveries took about 45 minutes to an hour for each one attempted. We also had some industry work around the yard at 26th Street. So oftentimes, we barely made it back alive, if at all.
On this particular evening, we delivered the first cut of cars to "the J" and went to do some industry work as they had traffic and could not handle the second delivery for awhile. There was a large lumber yard south of 26th Street Yard. It was called Nebraska Bridge and Supply at one time and later Hines. I cannot recall which one it was at that time, but we switched them just the same. We
had spotted a load of lumber in there the evening before. Tonight, we had to go and pull the car, turn it on the wye and respot it. This particular car was an "A frame" bulkhead flat, also known as a "center beam" car. These are those 73 foot long bulkhead flats with the frame that extends the height and length of the car.
Being that is it may, the lumber yard didn't have the facilities to unload both sides of the car. They were only able to unload the east side of the car.
Pay close attention to compass direction here as it will play a big part in the evening's events. The east side of the car was empty, the west side loaded. These cars can become very unstable in this situation. But, we were given instructions from the CHTT (Chicago Heights Terminal Transfer) Yardmaster to turn it, and so it shall be done.
The plan was to take the car north through the east side of 26th ST Yard to the east wye, onto EJ&E trackage and then proceed west for about a third of a mile to the west leg of they wye and around it south and zig zag over to the crossovers just north of 26th ST Yard, and south of Jay Tower, where the EJ&E
crossed and connected. This was the plan anyway. This would have kept the load balanced as it would have been on the outside of the curves on both wyes. The car would be leaning towards the insides of the curves. But, as it would happen, an EJ&E Signal Maintainer was doing some work on the east leg of the
wye. The Operator at Jay Tower informed us the HE wanted us to take the car around the west leg of the wye first, so as to give his Maintainer the time he
needed to finish his project instead of having to stop and wait the five minutes for us. We argued rather heatedly that this would not work as the load was already unbalanced, and we didn't want to take the chance of it falling off or the
car tipping over. But, the Operator insisted we do it his way instead. I questioned him as to "who died and left him in charge". He said he was in control of the interlocking and therefore, "He was calling the shots." I responded "Okay fine!", and off we went.
We had to come out onto the northbound main and crossover to the southbound track, and then into the lead for the west side of 26th ST Yard. As we did so, the
car was really leaning over to the west, the side the load was on. The
Engineer I was working with, a really great guy named Stanley who we called Stash or Pipi (a play on his last name), an old country Greek who was a lot of fun to work and train with (when I was still training), kept saying "we're gonna turn it over. I know
we're gonna turn it over. And I'll bet we do it between the main lines here and tie-up the entire railroad." Somehow, we didn't. I gently nudged the car along at about 2 or 3 MPH through the mainline crossovers and from the southbound to the west yard lead. Still upright. So far, so good.
We then started into the west leg of the wye. We had two GP38-2's shoving the car with the caboose ahead of the car so as a crew member didn't have to ride the side of the car for miles. The car is leaning to the west with the load on the west side of the car. Not a good mix. We get about a third of the way through the wye and Stash is still fretting about turning the car over. I looked his way to say something when all of a sudden, there was this very loud "SNAP!" I looked back
in time to see a spectacular sight. As soon as I realized as to what was happening, I yelled out "Holy shit!" Stash jumped up and said "See, I told you!"
As I looked back towards the car, there, in slow motion, the car started to roll over on its side. The headman was riding the leading end (north) platform on the
caboose. He saw it starting to roll and just jumped off and headed for the high country. I immediately placed the train into emergency, not that it would do any good. Just a reaction I guess. The car ever so slowly and gracefully, went
over on its side. It made quite the racket too. As it went completely over, it struck a communications pole that carries all the wires for signal, telephone and voice communication on the railroad. It snapped in half and down came the wires.
So there it was, the car on its side, all the lading on the west side having fallen off. The south set of trucks was still on the rail, well sort of. The south end drawbar and coupler was still coupled to the north locomotive. It had torn off from the car along with the bell housing to which it is attached and what is attached to the car. The north set of trucks had derailed. The caboose was still on the rail. The north end drawbar of the car had slid out from its coupling
to the caboose, so there was no damage to the caboose. The north engine was also not derailed or damaged either.
Stanley and I sat there looking at this sight for a moment just staring, and then
we burst into hysterical laughter. Stash kept saying "See, I told you this would happen!" We laughed for almost a minute when the Operator at Jay Tower called and asked if we caught any of the lines as his communication had been knocked out. The headman Mike, told him to take a look out his back window to see why. When Stash and I regained our composure, I finally called the CHTT
Yardmaster on the radio and told him we needed his presence pronto. When he inquired as to why, I told him he really needed to get here now as we had a problem with the car we were turning. All during this conversation, I was fighting
the laughter big time.
We got off the engines to assess the situation. The car was trashed. Lumber was everywhere. Wires were dangling. Rail was twisted and bent. And the Maintainer was still working on the east leg of the wye.
As it would happen, both Stash and I had brought our cameras to work that evening to compare them. So, out they came and the shutters were clicking away. I only had few shots left on the roll, so that was all I got of this momentous event. Ever since that day though, I always carry my camera with me to work.
(Except while at the EJ&E).
Finally, Kenny, the CHTT Yardmaster arrives. He observes the situation and takes in the facts at hand. He then looks at me and says "What happened?" I quickly and politely told him "We did exactly what you told us to dowhen you called us." "What was that" he asked? "I responded "Well, you're the one who called and instructed us to "turn the car, over." He shrugged and said
"Cute, real cute."
But wait, it doesn't end here. There's more. The following night, those who are in the know, and lead us throughout this industry concocted a plan. The had Hulcher come out and rerail the car, and place the load back onto it. Now, they
want us to take the car back through the mainline crossovers, shove it
through the east yard at 26th ST and respot it back at the lumber yard so they can finish unloading it. What a plan. And to think, they actually pay these people to think of this stuff. We questioned their sanity on this idiotic move. We all wanted
to know why they didn't have the lumber company send a couple of trucks to the scene of the accident to load up with the salvageable lumber and haul it back to the yard. We later learned it was money.
So now, we have to handle this crippled, out of line car back through the crossovers and back south to the lumber yard. This time, we were really hoping it would turn over between the mains and shut down the railroad. It was really leaning and bending as we made the move through the crossovers. The wheels were rubbing up against the bottom of the car as it went through them as well. It leaned way over, to the point that we expected it to go back over on its side
several times. Somehow though, it didn't. We gingerly nursed it across the mains, through the yard and back into the lumber yard without further incident.
Several days later, we had to handle this car back to Yard Center. The RIP Track folks had come out and worked on the car enough to make it road worthy. The car was restricted to 25 mph though. Being that one drawbar and bell housing was torn out, it had to run behind the caboose. As we headed north that
night, the Conductor and Flagman kept a watchful eye on the car. The said it had all kinds of lateral (side to side) motion against the rail and suggested that I reduce the speed. We limped it, along with the rest of the train along at 10 mph.
They told me that any speed faster than that and it really started the
lateral motion again. Why they didn't load it up onto an 89 foot flat and transport it back that way was beyond me. But I would willing to bet that it was all over money. Save a buck here, save a buck there. Tie up the railroad doing it, but we're really
saving the money now.
Yet another plan that literally, fell into place.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Where are you copying these stories from?
-Hank
My archive. I get them via e-mail every few weeks and i save them into my archive (big .txt file). I've been collecting them since Feburary 2000. You can privately e-mail me for the entire archive, read them on subtalk as I post them (to pace yourself) or subscrive to the Conrail-Talk e-mail list at Conrail-Talk@dsop.com for new ones.
If this material has been copied from another source, what, exactly, is the point of posting it on SubTalk? Aside from copyright issues, instead of clogging up Dave Pirmann's server, why not just point to these "Railroad Stories" for those interested?
This material is from past emails; it's not copied from another website.
The author has made it clear that he does not mind cross posting of his work as long as he is given credit etc etc. These stories have given me a much better understanding of how rail transport works and I thought I would provide these stories in an expidited maner to a group that can appriciate them.
I, for one, have really enjoyed reading them. And they certainly take up less space on Dave's holy server than petty diagreements between Train Rude and LaLa. Relax. Subtalk needs a little humor now and then and that's exactly what jersey Mike's posting.
P.S. Jersey Mike could you send me that big .txt file? thanx.....
Its not humour. Its detailed info on rail operations served in a humour coating. I have really learned a lot from hot times. For example there was a recent edition where we took us on a tour of a typical locomotive cab. Many of his remarks and observations were funny, but you also learn what's located in a typical locomotive cab. There is also an interesting one where de describes operating in the fog. Did you know that engineers are expected to maintain normal linespeed in '0' visibility fog?
Great work and re-work. Keep it cumin.
avid
Typical of railroad top brass, making money at everyone else's expense, and safety. Just another horrible story about workers not having the power to make their own decisions.
I read some comments posted about the JFK Express, so I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.
In 1990, the JFK Express, a train starting on Sixth Av and then switching to Fulton St in Brooklyn, running as a "super-express" with a frequency of every 20 minutes, was cancelled.
When asked about reviving this route in 2002, to coincide with the start of AirTrain service to Howard Beach and the opening of a new, fully ADA-compliant and baggage-friendly subway station at Howard Beach, the MTA wrote in reply that this train would interfere with existing "A" service, so they are not planning to establish it again.
Presumably, a "super express" could work if 1)timing and scheduling are carefully controlled in regard to A trains 2) the JFK Express is able to weave between the other trains by use of switches to move from express to local tracks and back (or other trains move out of its way). For bypassing express platforms, the practice would be similar to what LIRR trains do: a warning blast from a horn prior to passing a platform and not stopping.
What do you folks think? Waste of time, or something to be considered? A useful service alternative to LIRR Jamaica service (which won't link to AirTrain until 2003)? Perhaps an interim service, to be cancelled when AirTrain's Jamaica leg opens in 2003?
Or not?
The original Airtrain was payed for by PA.
Arti
It is probably faster to take LIAR to JAM and pick-up Airtran there because it is a lot shorter in distance. Therefore I doubt it would work. Also unless you are just packing an overnight bag, you'd have to "schelp" heavy suitcases up and down staircases and through turnstiles. In a case like that limos and cabs look a lot more attractive.
It was a dismal failure when it ran....those 3 car R46 trains were 95% empty. It's a waste of valuable subway cars.
I agree the service did not meet its goal.
How many cars were dedicated to the "Train to the Plane"?
How could service be changed to better serve the Air Travelers?
Maybe offpeak service for dedicate equipement, limited stops, and Far Rock and Rock Park "A" during Rush hour. Between 6:00am and 9:00am and 4:00pm and 7:00pm . Perhaps the R110B orphans could serve as some of the dedicated equipement. They have nice floor space for luggage. Maybe , just maybe if spare parts could be found, three sets could be squeezed out for service.
Its a crying shame the LIRR Rocaway Branch couldn't be revived for direct Airport to Grand Central , or Port Auth and Penn Station service . What did the old LIRR scheduals have service to Aquaduct or Howard Beach at? Is it still posted Here or am I thinking of "Change At Ozone Park".
The rest of the country and World is or has Airport service . Some grand , some plane jane . The NY Metro Area is Lagging behind Air Yak in it service.
avid
Actually, the ones that used it the most were the Howard Beach residents who used it as a "private subway" to and from Manhattan.
It's not worth it, especially if such a train were to switch back and forth between tracks. Until the A began operating express in Brooklyn all day, the JFK express had the Fulton St. express tracks all to itself except during rush hours. When I rode on it in 1984, the motorman would honk the horn if we were bypassing a station we weren't stopping at.
It appears that the unanimous opinion so far is that the JFK Express, as routed in the 1980's, will not work. All of you have persuaded me that this is true.
One possible reserruction would be to reopen the lower level at 42nd/8th and run a new JFK express in the same manner as the old Aqueduct racetrack specials. It could then have it's own dedicated terminal and seperate fare controls. This, of course, would require expensive construction to facilitate.
Your observation also leads to the conclusion that is impractical, since during the time needed to construct it, AirTrain will have been completed, tested, and made ready for service.
Of course, your concept is good in general - I wonder if there are other transit purposes for this...perhaps an increase in line capacities would provide other benefits we haven't yet anticipated.
Another item for the wish list (do I hear anyone saying HEY BUDDY,GET IN LINE!)
The current service is free.
Last I heard, the AirTrain will cost what? $5? from Howard Beach (yet it will be free from the adjacent parking lots).
And you expect people to pay yet more for the subway to Howard Beach?
Sorry, I'll be either in a cab or on the Q10 or B15. I'm afraid many others will do likewise if the Howard Beach--JFK run does not remain free. I'm quite skeptical about this entire AirTrain thing.
There are all kinds of rumors flying around about AirTrain fares. I think we should remember two things:
1. We don't know what will or won't be charged. Too early in the process.
2. The nice thing about pricing is that if one price doesn't work out, the PA can change it. Much easier than doing a lot of other things.
Agreed -- nothing is set in stone at this point. But I think it would be a great setback for the replacement for the current free shuttle bus to not be free. Sure, it'll be faster, but that doesn't help anyone who doesn't mind the slow ride but doesn't want to pay more than a single subway fare.
JFK Airport should remain in the one-fare zone, like the rest of the city.
I agree that JFK should remain in the "one-fare zone." But, as a marketer, the PA may be looking at this from the point of view of assessing what the market will really bear. Are most of their customers willing to pay more? Referring to a bit of economics: How elastic will demand be for this service? What will the effect be on total revenue of a particular fare? On ridership? The PA may or may not consider you or me to be an example of a "typical" AirTrain rider.
The only way to really know this is to begin the service at a particular price (whatever it is), and then gauge reaction. I hope that it will be as accessible (price-wise) to as many people as possible.
Possibly there will be a hearing prior to the fare schedule being put into effect (similar to what happens at the MTA). If that is the case, make sure the PA hears from you.
As an occasional customer of the PA (when I fly to see my grandchildren I usually go from JFK), I would hate to see the PA charge Howard Beach and Jamaica customers for the AirTrain. That said, there is some rationale in doing so, because those patrons going to the parking lots are already paying money to the PA for parking there, and the inter-terminal riding (when customers are changing from one airline to another) is paid for via the passenger facility charge - those folks are getting soaked twice, not once. But I think a fare higher than that charged on PATH should not be considered.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> run a new JFK express in the same manner as the old Aqueduct racetrack specials. <<<
Specials to Aqueduct were feasible because many people were going there at a particular time. Since the airport would need service all day long, there would be many trips with relatively low passenger loads. The Airtrain, with its much shorter route, and connection to the subway which can take the passenger to wherever he is going in the New York area is a much better solution.
Tom
I agree. I was merely proposing a better route over the old one for the "Train to the Plane" used.
I hated that. My favorite cars running non-stop and empty made me so jealous that I once spent an entire week's allowance in 1986 to pay for the extra fare to ride it from Howard Beach to 57th/6th.
Starting today and every Monday, a new poll question will be posted on Oren's Transit Page. This is a chance to be asked transit related question in secret without recounts or uncounted votes. This week's poll:
Polls change every Monday afternoon. If there are any questions you wish to have asked, e-mail me.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/
This afternoon while waiting for a 2 or 3 train to arrive, the Yankee R142 train come North at 34st. At a fairly fast speed this train was O/O/S also cars 6317 and 6318 appeared to have spotted or flat wheels ALREADY...... I finally caught a # 2 train. I rode car # 8985 it is the 3rd north motor it was coupled to 8998 both of these cars had very loud sqeaky breaks big time. The wrap on car 6320 appears to be falling off.
oh, my, god.
has vandalism actually begun?
w-wait a minute. I'm just asking, since i go to school, at IS 162, why is the 3 running on the 2 and 5 line?
oh, my, god.
has vandalism actually begun?
w-wait a minute. I'm just asking, since i go to school, at IS 162, why is the 3 running on the 2 and 5 line?
Vandalism?? I wouldn't call the wrap coming off vandalism. And he said that train passed him at 34 Street, which is where the 2-3 trains stop.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
The 3 is going to the yard on White Plains Rd to get washed.
-Stef
That train has been out of service a lot lately! I actually looked for it at 34th Street on Friday. It passed by northbound at around 12:40 P.M., but it was out of service. I waited an hour for it to come back, but it never did. Then, at about 5:30 P.M., I was going toward Brooklyn on a #5 train which went along the #2 line without any explanation whatsoever, and the R-142 train was in service northbound at Fulton Street. Unfortunately, it left before I could get on it. I was going to post this Friday night, but I have been having Internet trouble ever since I upgraded to Netscape 6.
- Lyle Goldman
I read the article on the new W line, the thing that I find the strangest, is have these two lines end at the same point.I mean having two subway lines coming from the upper Bronx packed and have them terminate at a midtown station? These people will have to get off change to another train, and you have large amounts of people getting off there anyway, plus the platform will be packed full of angry and confused people, not counting the extra rush hour service. and the back up of trains terminating, this is poor planning
I don't think so. W4th, Lafayette amd Grand St are not major destinations for the people from Updown and the Bronx. If they need to go Downtown CPW offers a connection to A and 7th Avenue to E.
Arti
Actually, the last time they did it, in the late 80's, it worked surprisingly well.
Peace,
ANDEE
And that was with a transfer from an orange B or D to a yellow B or D at 34 St! It makes the Q and seem as difficult as navigating the Newark City Subway ;)
And back when they did it the late eighties due to bridge work, there were TWO 'B's and TWO 'D's, differentiated by trunk line color, one on each level at Herald Square.
It's interesting that this change would return the West End and Brighton to 'pure BMT service', as it was pre-Christie. Likewise, the 'B' would resemble its old pre-Christie 'BB' service, except it would go up the Concourse instead of to 168th. The 'D' would assume much of its pre-Culver connection form. From 1933 to 1954 it ran the way the 'F' does now from Broadway-Lafayette to Church/McDonald. If I recall correctly, from the 1940 to 1954 the 'F's Manhattan terminus was 34th Street or Broadway-Lafayette at different times of day or week.
It would be great if, under this new plan, that instead of the 'D' ending at 34th, it were to continue express to West 4th or Broad/Laf, switch over to the local tracks and follow the 'F' to Brooklyn. If only lower Bergen were operable, the 'D' could then run express through Houston, Rutgers and Smith to Church. The 'F' would continue to run local to provide the wealthy of Carroll Gardens, the Slope and the Terrace direct service to Manhattan. This could be a weekday or rush-hour only extension.
There would also be an additional service through Rutgers. Two forms of relief: Less crowded 'F' trains to and from Brooklyn; and more service for horribly overcrowded East Broadway and Delancey.
Of course, the 'G's that turn on the viaduct wouldn't be able to because the express tracks it uses would be taken up by 'D' expresses. We'd just have to extend the 'G' to Church as well, or even have it as a local ending at Kings Highway, with the 'F' to Coney running express Church through Kings.
The other drawback is that the 'B' would have no place to turn at 34th. In that case, it could continue downtown, switch over at West 4th (the way the JFK express did) and continue to WTC, providing supplemental service to the 'E'. Or would this cause a reduction in 'E' service and slots at the WTC stub?
It's just a fantasy, but we railfans revel in fantasy, don't we?
If I remember prior to 1954 Culver Extension. The F ran to Church Ave, The D Terminated at Bdwy Laffayette and Hudson Terminal(WTC) for a couple years. When that happened the E Terminated at Bdwy Laffayette. After 1954, the D went to Coney island. The F Mon-Fri 6A-9P terminated at 2nd Ave or Bdway Laff. Other times it terminated at 34th St. Also at that time on Bdwy there were 3 express and 1-2 Locals. When the Brighton Exp did not run, the local ran via Bridge and Exp in Manhatten. and only the (2) 4th Ave was a local.
Yup, and for the first year of the divided service the cars had no yellow B or D signs. And since the R42's that ran on the northern B/D didn't have the segmented side signs they do now post GOH, all the signs were wrong. D trains terminating at 34th were always signed as "205th St, Bronx/Brighton Beach" and the rush hour B's as "168th St, Manhattan/Bay Parkway". In addition, the R27/30 cars assigned to the M at this time when it ran to 9th Ave. always had "36th St, Brooklyn" as it's southern destination (The R16, with it's pre Culver shuttle demise side signs, said the correct "Ninth Avenue").
However, for some strange reason, the R40's assigned to the southern B had proper signage from day #1.
Since southern B trains terminated at 57th St. most of the time, and since they already did so at 57th and 6th Ave., they naturally had a "57th St./Coney Island" sign combination.
No, I'm talking about the B going to Queens, with signs that had diamond B's saying "Ditmar's Blvd., Astoria/Coney Island" and circle B's which said "Queensboro Plaza/Coney Island". Although many were in black and white (like most R40/42 side signs were back then), they were there when the first diversions began in April 1986.
The Broadway B never terminated at 57th/7th in the initial reroute scheme. Only when the N/R terminal switch was made in May 1987 was weekend B service curtailed from QBP to 57/7th. Strangely, those trains used the old 57th St-Ave of Americas/Coney Island orange signs (on trains which still had color side signs).
Very weird.
It worked for 2.5 years during 1986-88, plus 27 years from 1967 back. The D would use the uptown express track to relay, the B would use the downtown track to relay. It does slow stuff down a bit, but it'll work.
Prior to 1967, the BB was a rush hour-only service, and D trains simply switched to the local track before 34th St., since they continued down 6th Ave. F trains ran to Broadway-Lafayette during rush hours, IIRC, so BB trains had the inner tracks all to themselves at 34th St. when they were running.
No other real option exists. It worked ok in 86-88, but today's B/D trains carry more people and might require more frequent service than back then. Also, the B was a rush hour only operation. With B trains terminating there all day, it could get stacked up all the way to 7th Ave.
We'll have to wait and see.
The BB Trains always used the Northbound Exp Tracks to Terminate at 34th, and so did the F when it terminated there.
I read the article on the new W line, the thing that I find the strangest, is have these two lines end at the same point.I mean having two subway lines coming from the upper Bronx packed and have them terminate at a midtown station? These people will have to get off change to another train, and you have large amounts of people getting off there anyway, plus the platform will be packed full of angry and confused people, not counting the extra rush hour service. and the back up of trains terminating, this is poor planning
Actually, I doubt any trains will run lite from 34th to Concourse Yard. So, what the MTA could do is close up as if 34th was a normal station, make an announcement the train will return to 34th momentarily for the stupid and illiterate and those whose minds start to wander after 30 seconds. They can reverse the train wherever they plan to do it and then head back north. Looking at my IND track map, trains can either switch directions north of 34th Street or north of 4th Street. So, the MTA could do B trains on the NB Express and D trains on the SB express at 34th or they could run lite to 4th and turn around there. What did they do when the north side was closed in the eighties?
>>>What did they do when the north side was closed in the eighties?<<<
Southbound D trains wrong-railed onto the N/B express tracks and crews changed ends. Southbound B trains came in on the S/B Express track as normal but, crews changed ends and wrong-railed N/B and switched at 1st crossover.
Peace,
ANDEE
The exact opposite. D's used the northbound express track. The rush hour B trains used the downtown express track.
Exactly what they are doing now. But most people seem to have short memories. The only major changes are the elimination of using one letter for both services.
-Hank
Back in 1985, B and D trains ran to W. 4th St. I remember taking one of the two and being quite surprised when we were discharged there. When I asked the conductor what was going on, he replied, "Where've you been?" I told him I was from Colorado but used to come to the city frequently when I lived back east, whereupon he explained the bridge situation.
By 1986, they were being turned at 34th St.
You must've ran into a special off peak GO. The D was running over the north side of the bridge until 1986, and it began terminating at 34th immediatly after the north side was closed.
Today I was on the Queens-bound R train returning home from school. Bad news was there was a larger than normal crowd waiting at 59 and Lex. Good news was, for some reason, at Queens Plaza, the train went express on the local tracks to Roosevelt Avenue, stopping only at Steinway Street!!
Good news for me since Roosevelt Avenue is my home station.
Wish they could do this every day.... but why tonight? Did they have to make up time due to lateness? The conductor told us we were going express on the local, but never said why.
>>>Did they have to make up time due to lateness?<<<
Exactly.
And that train should have gone directly to Roosevelt Av. and bypass Steinway St. altogether. The C/R or T/O probably had a friend getting off there and that's why they made the extra stop.
I've been on R trains where they go express on the local tracks. The trains sometimes stop at Steinway. It's the busiest of all the local stops between QP and Roosevelt Ave. It makes sense somewhat because of the Q101 and maybe the Q104 (but I doubt it is very significant). A lot of people (I am guessing) who take the train at Steinway, take the 101 along Steinway which stops right by the entrance.
I went to a driving school right above the Steinway Street entrance. The Manhattan bound Q101 bus stop in the middle of Steinway Street which is where the main entrance of the subway station is.
Train#1932Mike
You are correct. If I drive to work, I'll stop at a newstand right by the main, midblock entrance to Steinway Street. If a Manhattan-bound Q101 stops there, virtually everybody piles off and down the stairs.
The entrance, which leads to the extreme north end of the platform, is in the middle of the block because of the sweeping curve the line takes onto Broadway. On street level you can actually see an odd angle of a building and driveway at the SW corner of Broadway and 41st Street that seems to precisely trace the path of the tracks.
I once rode a late R train which stopped at Queens Plaza, Steinway, Roosevelt, Woodhaven, and finally, Forest Hills.
Likewise, when the 1/9 runs express due to overcrowding (which, I'll point out once again, occurs because there are insufficient locals, not expresses), it often (but not always) stops at 59th.
Same with the 6; it will run express from 14 St to Brooklyn Bridge, but stopping at Bleecker St.
Southbound only, I assume.
Are transfer volumes heavier at Bleecker than at Canal? I assume once the bridge flip occurs, Canal will have more transfer traffic.
This is what the tA should do once the other side of the bridge opens.I know the TA wont do this because it makes sense, but tell me if this could work:
Q-monday-friday express Brighton Beach to/from 57th St-7th Av via Bridge
Q-Weekends,nights,holidays-local Coney Island to/from 57th St-7th Avenue via Bridge(express via bway all times except nights).
M-Monday-Friday-Coney Island to/from Metropolitan Avenue. local in brooklyn
The article in the Daily news says there will be 2 "Q" trains. Can you picture what rush hour would be like>? Having 2 Q is stupid, and bringing the M back works better. I hope the TA looks at this and uses the idea. Would it work? Let me know.
M-weekends,nights-Metropolitan Avenue to/from myrtle Avenue.
I don't think the MTA has enough cars to bring the M over to the Brighton. Even so, as others have pointed out, there are two 6 trains and two 7 trains, people will live with two Q trains.
And they'll like the idea of 2 Q's then seeing their midtown service cut in half with the M train running there.
There's a reason why M service was never brought back to the Brighton line after the express track rehab was finished in 1988. Nobody wanted it.
Why not (until the bridge work is finished) combine the V and the M into a single route? Run the V through the Chrystie Street Cut, over the Williamsburg Bridge, and along the M.
[Why not (until the bridge work is finished) combine the V and the M into a single route? ]
Sounds like a good idea, probably some of them terminating on 2nd Avenue. The only problem would be 8 car trains, but I'm not sure that MTA has enough cars to run V as a 10 car train anyway.
Arti
[Why not (until the bridge work is finished) combine the V and the M into a single route? ]
(Sounds like a good idea, probably some of them terminating on 2nd Avenue. The only problem would be 8 car trains, but I'm
not sure that MTA has enough cars to run V as a 10 car train anyway.)
I think using the unused portion of the Chrystie St has to be considered. Sure, the KK didn't attract a lot of riders, but that was 30 years ago. If you've ever seen the crush to change to the F at Delancy, you'd know that 2/3 of the riders are going to Midtown.
The real solution is to combine the V with the J and Z. Keep the M on the West End, where the riders are used to it. You won't be adding any additional service where you don't need it, since the J and Z will be covering LESS trackage than they used to before joining the V route. That will save cars.
And if you have the V starting its Queens Blvd. run at Jamaica Center you can make it a big, unconnected circle also ending at Jamaica Center (via the J/Z). Imagine, a north and south terminal for the same train!
Andrew
Ooops! That should have read "The same station serving as both a north and south terminal for the same train."
Won't they have to eliminate M on West End anyway? Tunnel capacity, car shortage, not much used.
Arti
(Won't they have to eliminate M on West End anyway? Tunnel capacity, car shortage, not much used.)
It's fairly well used. With half the bridge out, there are only so many trains that can go via bridge. So you can't add more B trains, or Ds, or Qs. You've got to run something other than the N/R through the tunnel. That's the M.
The M is well used.....until it reaches Dekalb Ave, where it loses much of it's riders who need trains into Midtown.
Increasing N/R service and eliminating the M completely is an idea whose time has come.
Just Bring Back the KK as the K. Run it between Jamaica Center and Jamaica Center as a Local.
Yes, yes, yes, it hadn't occurred to me how close my idea was to the legendary Jamaica-Jamaica route.
The M will need to be extended to Broad when it doesn't run to Brooklyn. (I don't care about Broad itself but Fulton is a useful transfer point.)
As for why -- the V and the J/Z terminate near each other as it is. Merging them doesn't inconvenience anyone except the few who are going from Williamsburg to the Financial District, and it eliminates a transfer for many others. As Larry points out, the J/Z empties out at Essex in favor of the F, and many of those who stay on board transfer at Canal to the N/R/6, at Chambers to the 4/5, or at Fulton to the A/C/2/3. For most of those riders, a direct uptown routing is at least as convenient as backtracking to the south.
Hate to break the news to you, but at least half the J/M/Z riders work in lower Manhattan and do not transfer to any other train. I'm one of them.
Re-routing any line up 6th Ave. will inconvienence as many people as it "conviences".
The city cannot run a new service to midtown over the Willy B, only to remove it 3 years later. Nobody used the KK line in the 1970's, I simply don't understand why everyone else is so keen to bring this failure back to life.
(The city cannot run a new service to midtown over the Willy B, only to remove it 3 years later.)
There is no need to remove it. The route of the V is, in fact, a separate issue from the bridge flip, unless they are going to replace the V with the Q if and when the bridge is fully open. And I doubt that -- they'll want two services (B, D) on the A-B tracks and two on the H tracks (N, Q) to balance the load. So the V is going to have to end up somewhere. It will either run through as extra Culver service, run thorugh as Willie B service, or just terminate at 2nd Avenue. The latter option seems pointless.
(Nobody used the KK line in the 1970's, I simply don't understand why everyone else is so keen to bring this failure back to life.)
Let's just say population and employment patterns have shifted a wee bit since then. All you have to do to estimate ridership is to get the inbound on the J/M/Z, then count then number transferring to the F at Essex St. I'd bet it's two-thirds.
V trains running through Chrystie St. would always be limited to 8 car trains, which would limit their capacity on Queens Blvd. A confusing situation having a line both beginning and ending in Queens would arise. J/Z traffic would undoubtedly limit headways on the V.
The V would be much more useful if extended to Church Ave and the resumption of the long-dormant express service on the F line would then be feasible. There is no rational reason to place all these restrictions on the entire V line simply to eliminate a transfer at Essex/Delancey. Let's be serious. All these proposals to revive 6th Ave/Eastern division service are based soley on the desire of railfans to see this long dormant service restored.
M, as less frequent as it is, serves only lower Manhattan. Those riders along the Brooklyn M line (Brighton or West End) would most likely not want to transfer for as far as they could, and most probably would want to go further than just lower Manhattan.
Regarding the Q, there are 2 center express tracks and 2 outer local tracks for most of the way along the Brighton. I hope normal Q passengers will understand which side of the platform will be express and which side will be local! Even a child can figure this out! (I think... I do have my doubts also) If this simple choice of A and B proves to be too much to understand for Brighton riders then they don't deserve ANY service at all!
Yes, but can they deal with figuring it out on the way home?
That is a good point. We'll see how this idea does in 2001.
They manage to figure it out on the 5, 6, and 7.
I'm sure tons of announcements will be made at Prospect Park.
Ok, it must be about 20 years ago or something like that, but I know 3 lines ran on Brighton. I know this will may cause more confusion than good but what about this:
W - Instead of West End, how about running it as the Brighton Local (I know the W roll signs say West End but oh well it's just an idea to talk about - or if you really think about it, why not just have it as the Broadway D).
Q - Keep it as the Brighton Express
M - Run that on the West End Line. (I know the ridership along Nassau Street line doesn't warrant an all day run to CI AND I'm sure the West End riders will probably hang my head for this idea but it).
Have fun
=)
change the Q Local to K so there will be no confusion, Bring the K
the confusion caused by the similarities of subwaysurf's handle and subfan's handle is nothing compared to what may soon transpire here... a descendant of bennett cerf, founder of random house, will soon be posting here under the handle of subwaycerf... likewise, a railfan who is whose whole family line was sold to a feudal landowner will also be posting here under the handle subwayserf... a philadelphia railfan who is fond of the 40th street portal will be posting soon as subwaysurface...the owner of a large restaurant chain that is known for their early bird specials will soon be posting here as surfandturf...
fortunately for me, my own reputation at subtalk is so poor, that no one has chosen a handle that could in any way be confused with mine...
LOL!
[fortunately for me, my own reputation at subtalk is so poor, that no one has chosen a handle that could in any way be confused with mine...]
Well what about a hillbilly-type named Paul from the 'sticks' coming on SubTalk with the handle 'haypaul'. I can see it now....;-)
BMTman
What about a South-Philly type called Yopaul?
How about the SubTalker from Transvestylvania, rupaul?
Or his four sibling lookalikes Quadrupaul!
avid
How about a rapper B-Eminem-T man!
Thanks, Bob! I really needed that..:-(
By the way BMT Man, is our feud still on, or is it now off?
How about his ancient ancestor Neanderpaul.
avid
That's almost worth a rim shot.:-)
Unfortunately, someone on Yahoo has. I found the "Spirit of th R-9" page a while ago and tried to view your profile at profiles.yahoo.com/pkronenberg; a slight typographical error led me to http://profiles.yahoo.com/pkronenburg">profiles.yahoo.com/pkronenburg, and, needless to say, I was surprised :).
I hope I haven't exposed a secret identity here...
hey... thanks for alerting me to pkronenburg... i think that is the first time i've seen my last name spelled that way... although i will check with my psychiatrist to make sure this is not one of my repressed personalities, i am pretty sure that this person is not me... judging from his profile, he seems interested in other people... even the casual reader of my posts realizes that i am totally absorbed in myself and unable to respond to other people... thanks again, you had one of me worried for a minute...
I think your 30-year-old Dutch counterpart is pretty self-absorbed, too :). We'll know if it's actually one of your personalities if you're ever seen arriving at a hot Manhattan singles club in a European sports car with a bumper sticker that says "my other car is an R-9."
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to have a talk with the me who can't type HTML properly.
heypaul: Once again you've come through with a good dose of brevity and humor. It was badly needed as tempers were starting to boil, and BMT Doug was telling me to take my pills. Good show.
sea beach fred said:"heypaul: Once again you've come through with a good dose of brevity and humor. It was badly needed as tempers were starting to boil, and BMT Doug was telling me to take my pills. Good show. "
thanks fred... have i ever failed to bring subtalkers a needed measure of sanity?
Never failed as far as I know. We need a few guys like you on this line to keep the rest of us honest. Isn't it amazing how all sorts of flamage and feuds start breaking out all over Subtalk?
Just like the non-Subtalk world.
It s not Fred s Sanity. it is his Altizmers. He thinks Reagan wa the 2nd comming,
i was wondering what the mta will do when the v and w lines are created, i was too young/oblivious the last time any major changes happened so i don't know how they go about changing signs. i notice that a lot of platform signs simply have large stickers over them but the signs outside the station and i'm sure many on the platform are taken down all together and replaced. i was wondering what they do with the discarded signs that are still in good shape and if there was any way i could get my grubby little fingers on them. any info would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
later,
tim
Some of them might just wind up at that junk dealer's that sits at the North West corner of Atlantic Avenue and Bond Street.
wayne
Several old signs have made their way to another junk dealer, the northwest corner of Bowery and East Houston Street.
I guess junk dealers in general are a good place to check :). Also, maybe ask at the Transit Museum??
i assume the w will be yellow and the v will be orange and the q will go back to yellow, just wondering. i'm sure this question has been asked so forgive me if it has but what trains will be used for the v and w since i don't recall hearing of any rollsigns having a w.
thanks,
tim
> i don't recall hearing of any rollsigns having a w.
I've actually seen a W on a side destination sign. It was black on a yellow diamond. It was on an R-42 car. It was upside-down when I saw it, so whoever put it there must have thought it was an M!
- Lyle Goldman
I've seen the same thing, only on an R-40 Slant, and it was on the N train.
R40 Slants definitely have a W, because I've seen it whenever I get a Slant on the N. I also recall seeing a W on an R68, as well as a V. But yes, the V is orange and the W is yellow and the Q will go back to yellow because it will return to its old home on the Broadway BMT.
One news story had the V as blue, which makes no sense since it will be on 6th ave (orange) not 8th (blue).
Actually, the one time I saw a "v" rollsign it was mistakenly on a B or D train (which my F was passing) and it was blue. Obviously that dosen't make any sense.
:-)Andrew
That was an upside-down A.
-Hank
Hmm. Could be. I only got a glimpse.
:)Andrew
According to FOX 5, the W sign will be like the R. I have taken the liberty to create something like it.
But can anyone explain this strange R sign I spotted a few weeks ago?
-Dan
nyrail.cjb.net is currently down and is being moved to trainweb.org. I'll inform y'all of its re-emergence.
I've said before that it probably was put the rollsigns in case they ever got a wild hare to reinstitute Chambers Street Specials. It's also possible they may have been providing for some kind of special rush hour service out of Astoria before the N/R terminal switch. And, lastly, maybe they just put it on when they did the rollsigns for no planned/foreseen reason other than to just make sure that the routes would have both regular and rush hour signings. I did see a diamond E and F a couple of times on non-lead cars back then on pre-GOH slants and 42s when they ran on the B. I never found out any particular reason for their existence, and just assumed it was for future flexibility.
The diamond F was used to denote the trains which ran express between Kings Highway and 18th Ave. back before this service was eliminted, sometime in 1987.
when the R ran in 2 sections the brown diamond was the brooklyn to lower manhattan 1/2 of the line
I don't recall the R running in two sections. Before the M train moved to the West End line, the R had specials up the Nassau St line to Chambers, and this is what the brown diamond R was for.
-Hank
That's the old Nassau St. special R line. It only ran as a brown line for 6 months until it's elimination in 11/87. Until then, it shared the same color as the R/RR did (first green, then yellow). It terminated at Chambers St., at least on the map, but most of these special trains ran to Metropolitan Ave. or Eastern Pkwy.
Question, when you took this picture, it looked like you used a flash. Did the conductor get mad at you for doing it? When I take pictures, I try to use the flash as little as possible, mainly becuase I don't even know if it's legal, but also because I don't want people to get pissed off.
well, as you can see, the conductor was turned around. I was not shooting through a window so no one's face got in my photo. No one seemed to mind at all.
R-32s and 38s have a yellow W.
Peace,
ANDEE
The R32/38/40/42's and R68A's all have front and side "W" signs. The R44/46 have front W signs and programmable side W electronic signs. I'm not sure about the R68. The R68's for the most part still have their original 1986 signs, with no W and only a diamond Q.
I think the R68's all need new rollsigns.
Hey people- I'm a new user on this board (my first post), and I love the level of interest in NYC subways expressed here- I thought that I was one of very few MTA subway enthusiasts.
Could someone please summarize (because I obviously missed the original posting/announcement), what the routes will be for the new "V" and "W" trains? I'm sort of surmised that the "F" is going thru the 63rd Street tunnel, and bypassing Queens Plaza; the "G" is terminating at Court Square, and "V" will run the Queens Blvd line local from 71st/Continental, replacing the "G", and running thru the 53rd St tunnel and down the "F" local 6th Avenue line. And I'm guessing that the "W" will run the "N" express line in Queens and down the Broadway Express line to Whitehall St during rush-hours only.
What happens to the "Q" and "B"? Only 1 express train at Queens Plaza? - the "E" will be jammed and changing trains at 74th/Roosevelt will be a nightmare! Please provide more details, please...
Any news on the Second Avenue line or the "7" train extension to Javits Center?
The W will be like the yellow B of 1986-1988, running from Ditmars Blvd, Astoria along N over the Manhattan Bridge to West End. E,R,V will still stop at Queens Blvd. 2 Qs will run from 57th/7th over Manhattan Bridge to Brighton, diamond Q as Brighton express, circle Q as Brighton local. B will consist of the current portion from 34th/6th up. The number of passengers squeezing onto the E,F,R by Queens Blvd today will be compensated by the 4 lines to Manhattan... it's supposed to ease overcrowding. (keyword: "supposed")
What I hope the TA will do some time after the F starts running through 63rd is to switch the F back to 53rd and route the V to 63rd... and have F run to 63rd during eves & weekends.
Nothing new on 2nd Ave & Javits..... check out other sections of this site on these items.
the article is here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/05/nyregion/05TUNN.html
I agree wholeheartedly with this columnist. W sucks.. why should the average new yorker, who is in such a hurry, have to spend the time uttering a train name that contains a whole THREE syllables. V is obvisouly easy to say, but i think we should let a system like moscow keep the V, I dont want it. Let them use all the V's they want, I want nothing to do with them. Fin.
There's another "three syllable train" on the NYC system: The "one-and-nine."
everyone i know, including my self, just says, one or nine or simply one-nine.. so two syllables
I've heard "one'n'nine" quite frequently.
And "J'n'Z" too.
Hoping some congestion is alleviated.
Vision Of Less Crowding
Peace,
ANDEE
Similar article in the Times
The Times article says "...changes were "operational requirements" necessary to keep all lines running while the Manhattan Bridge construction work, which is now focused on the two sets of tracks on its north side, shifts to the two sets of tracks on its south side."
Don't they have that backwards? Right now it's the south side tracks that are closed. The construction will be shifting to the north side.
No, the times has it right, for the Times. Whatever direction they look in becomes north. If they look at the Manhattan Bridge from their ivory tower, the north side tracks are closed.
-Hank
Why the R62?The Broadway line tracks were last in use in 1990, not 1988.
Actually they were used in 1995 when the Manny B was closed completely middays and weekends.
They'reused on a daiy basis for short turns, bypasses, and other things. There's just no regular service scheduled.
-Hank
Understood. But the 1995 reroutes were scheduled services, which lasted almost 7 months.
The article was referring to the Broadway bridge tracks, not the express tracks. Obviously the bridge tracks weren't in use when the entire bridge was closed. And the express tracks were also used when the Queensbridge shuttle was running.
What the DAILY NEWS article seems to conveniently overlook is that the 'F' would be diverted to 63rd Street. As a result, the horribly overcrowded 53rd Street corridor would have one Queens Boulevard express ('E') and one local ('V') service instead of the two express services as has been the past sixty years.
I thought the 63rd Street connection was originally supposed to be for Queens Boulevard local service, leaving the 'F' on its original routing. Both Lexington/53 and 5/53 are located in areas of tremendous office buildings. The way the plan is now, 'F' riders will be diverted away from this area, although it will still serve Rockefeller Center, another huge employment center.
A lot of these happy people interviewed won't be so happy when they come down into Lex/53 or 5/53 after work to see packed Queens-bound 'E' trains and relatively empty 'V' trains. Those who go to Briarwood or out Hillside Avenue will have to get the 'F' at Roosevelt or Kew Gardens.
Then there's the lack of a transfer at 63/Lex. You can imagine the morning chaos at Queens stations with people trying to figure out if this train will connect to the '6'.
The TA wants to show off it's $645 million connector, and more people will see it with the F running. Besides, people will stich to what's familiar, and if the V ran via 63rd. St, nobody will use it.
Stupid reasons to create a bottleneck at 36th St, but that's TA logic for you.
The controversy over how to use this new asset (and it is a real asset) points to the importance of attending the public hearing or hearings which will be held in the spring of '01.
There will be opportunities there to present concerns. While the TA is as bureaucratic and stuffy as they come, if particular aspects of the plan are clearly not wanted, MTA will change it. Witness their cancellation of IRT 2 and 5 train rerouting in the Bronx in theface of clear public opposition. There are other examples.
Show up, write responses and send a copy to your councilman and state assemblyperson or senator (and the Queens Borough President). There are some great ideas on this chat area. Don't reserve them for nycsubway.org - pass them out to the pols!
As information, the Queens Borough President's Office is at 120-55 Queens Blvd, Kew Gardens NY 11420. Dan Andrews is in charge of the press office...
They should have built a transfer to the 59th street station. That way riders could connect to 4,5,and 6 trains as well as the N and R.
It is a shame that the 63rd tunnel actually wasn't built somewhere between 66th-68th, so that it would've had a connection to the 6. I still think many Queens residents will use this train to get to Hunter College, the Hospitals, and wherever else they work on the Upper East Side. You would not believe how many people transfer at 51st or 59th, and take the 6 to 68th. Now they may just take the 63rd tunnel, and walk a few blocks.
That would have been useful. However, since the original intention was to have the 63rd St. trains emerge onto expanded LIRR ROW south of Queens Blvd., building the tunnel at 68th St would have complicated matters...
In addition to the Daily News article from the Queens perspective that ANDEE posted this morning, the Daily News has another article from the Brooklyn point of view.
Damn Crybabies.
I especially liked the person who feared losing her hard fought seating to have to transfer at 34th Street.
OH MY GOD! I'm going to have to stand for 2 stops!
And since the B and D will originate at 34 St, she'll still get a seat if she's fast enough.
My feelings exactly.
amen Pork
amen Pork most of them probably sit 8 hours a day at work
Riders are clueless. The same sentiments were expressed when the B and D were put back on 6th Ave. 12 years ago (was it THAT long ago? I'm getting long in the tooth!).
They'll adjust. People who need direct service to Union and Times Squares will even benefit from the plan. Brooklyn IRT riders will revel in the lower numbers of people x-ferring to the 2/3/4/5 at Atlantic Ave.
And somehow the people of Chinatown are left out. The bridge flip will affect them the most.
No it doesn't. They have plenty of other stops nearby. E Broadway, Delancey on F, The bunch of Nassau st Subway stations, Canal st. (don't have to walk on Canal to get there, use side streets). Most of the people on East Side have to walk more to get to a Subway stop. Also M15 is quite frequent.
Arti
Or walk a block!
Besides, I'm not sure what they want. Of course all the Brooklyn BMT lines will be running on Broadway -- the Chrystie Street connection will be closed, so Broadway is the only place they can go (unless they'd prefer Nassau Street). Yeah, for some of them it will be a pain, but there's nothing the TA can do about that.
I can t believe how lazy people are that work in Rockafeller Center. 1 block will kill them to walk from 7th Ave to 6th Ave, or 2 blocks to 5th. How long would that take 3-6 minutes. They probably kill that much time waiting to transfer trains the way it is now. 4 50 years Broadway was the Trunk Line, and for 2 -3 years they have to be incovienced. To d-mn bad. The exercise would do them good.
W Complaints already,
Let The WWWhining Begin
Peace,
ANDEE
["You're putting Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst, Borough Park, everyone up to Brighton Beach on the same Broadway line," said state Sen. Vincent Gentile (D-Bensonhurst). "You'll have congestion and delays that you can't even imagine."]
Seems to me that this is exactly the way things were prior to the Christie St. connection. I don't recall seeing any unimaginable delays back then. Sure, there will be a few days of confusion, but after a while things should settle down.
I was going to copy & paste this exact line as my nomination for quote of the day! Seems like Sen. Gentile isn't too familiar with the way the system works.
Would anyone know why the NYC and MTA did not install new switches on the Manhattan Bridge BMT tracks in anticipation of repair work being finished? Had that been done, all this rerouting might have been unnecessary. The trains could move over to the BMT side and then back.
Also, there are still 7-8 months prior to the switchover. Isn't there still time now to install the needed switches?
Is that physically impossible? Is the problem with this on the Brooklyn side or the Manhattan side?
I realize this must seem like a very ignorant question - but if one of you provides a good answer, I will no longer be ignorant.
[Would anyone know why the NYC and MTA did not install new switches on the Manhattan Bridge BMT tracks in anticipation of repair work being finished?]
It would cost waaay too much. You'd have to build a new tunnel for the connection.
[Also, there are still 7-8 months prior to the switchover. Isn't there still time now to install the needed switches?]
You also have to take into account the time it would take to actually build the tunnel. At the rate they're building tunnels, this tunnel would take about 12 to 24 months to complete.
[Is the problem with this on the Brooklyn side or the Manhattan side?]
Manhattan Side. The Brooklyn side has access to both sides of the bridge, north of DeKalb Avenue.
Thanks very much.
Yet another item to add to the MTA Capital Plan wish list...
Can't be done, the lower deck roadway is in the way. Building a tunnel would require a rather large jughandle as well.
-Hank
Thank you for your helpful reply. Also, please describe a jug handle. I think I know what you're talking about, but I'd like a precise definition in the context of this discussion.
Ever drive in New Jersey? On many major thouroughfares, you can't make a left turn. Instead, you take a right before the intersection, go around a loop, and end up on the cross street where you would have made the left.
-Hank
Each of those jug handles has an "All turns" sign before it. It's really not a bad idea, once you get used to it, and sure beats traffic circles. I remember those all too well from my days in Jersey.
Thanks guys. Now I can visualize it. (Perhaps morning commuters not having had their morning shot of caffeine would think more of a coffee cup handle...)
Trains are more important than cars. Close the lower roadway and it shall be done!
The Manhattan Bridge is the only HazMat and high clearance bridge into Manhattan outside of the GWB and the Triborough.
Vehicles carrying hazardous materials cannot use tunnels since the Holland Tunnel explosion many years back, and vehicles higher than 12'2" (I think) cannot fit into the Battery or Midtown Tunnels.
while i am sure there are technical and financial reasons that would make installing the switches a problem, i suspect the real reason is the people in power are railfans and delight in using new route letters, needing new maps, and they will all be out in force on the first days of the changeover delighting in the confused passengers who they secretly despise... they will all get a tremendous rush in knowing what's going on while the masses don't have a clue...
Such a plan was considered. In the plan posed by Mr. Fred Beck in 1957, a double diamond X-over would be built at each tower of the bridge. In this way, a train on the A/B tracks could cross over the auto section of the bridge to the H tracks (or vice versa) at either tower. Both double X-Overs would be protected by grade crossing signals in the roadway. In this way, trains could operate around construction zones on either side. Thanks to one of Mario Proccachino's advisors, the plan was never acted upon. If we had only known.
You are very brave to propose this. I would support it. And this plan is "do-able" in 6-8 months.
Would you consider contacting govt. and MTA about it. Certainly after the bridge is completely repaired (2004) the grade crossing would be unnecessary and could be dismantled (or at least the crossing gates taken down).
Unfortunately though, cars have too many rights as it is. The powers that be will never allow the lower roadway to be closed by a grade crossing.
It would be better if the lower roadway were to be closed entirely, OR a more permanent solution.
Why not move tracks to the center and cars to the sides? Oh we already spend millions on a new south side.
The Manhattan bridge is just another example of stupid planning.
Instead of the DOT putting so much $$ into road projects, they should have either put money into putting a switch between A/B and H tracks, or plan to build a tunnel. But we just can't "get it done" because a small group of rich, powerful people always get in the way.
(so move them out, if they don't shut up whack 'em to they bleed!)
Four tracks won't fit in the space of three lanes. Nice try, though.
Doesn't look like there is a dire need for 4 tracks anyway. If putting 2 tracks in the middle could speed up the service across the bridge that alone would increase the capacity.
Arti
If service will run to both Broadway and Sixth Avenue, all four tracks are necessary to avoid a major bottleneck.
Simply removing the lower roadway from the bridge would solve the problem. The bridge has four cables, one each on the inside and the outside of the outer deck sections. The lower roadway connects the two. By removing it, you have essentially two independant bridges, which WON'T twist from heavier traffic on one side.
-Hank
What if you added a set of cables to support the center roadway, and then disconnected the roadway from the sides? Couldn't you accomplish the same thing without actually removing the roadway?
I don't know if that's possible. But like I said, the easiest way to fix it would be to remove the 'lever' section.
-Hank
Your date or villain is wrong. The NYC comptroller in 1957 was Lawrence Gerosa. He was followed by Beame in 1962, Proccachino in 1966, Beame in 1970, Goldin in 1974, Holtzman in 1986 and Hevasi in 1994.
As to the merits of a crossover - the TA had a partial chance in 1967 and blew it. The could have implemented a grade level merge for the north side tracks under Canal St. when Chrystie went went into effect. Such a merge would have permitted 6th and Bway trains to simultaneously use the north side. It would have at least permitted Bway express service during non-rush hours for the present crisis and some emergency rerouting.
As to the plan for putting X-over's at each tower on the Manhattan Bridge. Was that plan hatched on 1 April 1957? The expansion joints are at the towers. There is no way lateral integrity for such tracks could have been guaranteed at that point. A crossover would have been possible before the towers on the side spans or after the towers on the center span but not at the towers themselves.
I put such a plan on a par with the TA study for restoring operations after an atomic bomb attack. Did Mr. Beck suffer the same fate as the consultant for that plan?
[It would have at least permitted Bway express service during non-rush hours for the present crisis and some emergency rerouting. ]
The tunnel should still be there, so it could be implemented.
Arti
Except for the sharp, superelevated 90 degree turn from the Bridge to Grand St.
-Hank
That old connecting tunnel from the north side of the bridge to the Canal St. bridge station is still there, although I understand the grade was altered when the tracks were tied into Chrystie St. Otherwise, such a grade level connection could be done now.
Do you have a list of all 107 mayors of New York City?
Wouldn't the frequency of the trains keep the gates closed virtually all the time?
Arti
Here's my own idea of what should happen in 2001 when the 63rd Street Extension opens and the Manhattan Bridge Flip. Service remains unchanged except for the following lines:
All trains will run from 207th Street via 8th Avenue/CPW Express to Far Rockaway. There will be no service on this line to Lefferts Boulevard.
Trains on this line will run from 145th Street via CPW Local, 6 Av Express, Fulton St. Local to Lefferts Blvd. During rush hours, trains would be extended to Bedford Park Blvd via Grand Concourse Local.
Trains on this line will run from 168th Street via CPW/8 Av Local to World Trade Center.
Trains on this line will run from 205 Street via CPW/6 Av/Fulton St Express to Rockaway Park (Beach 116 St). This would eliminate the need for the Rockaway Park Shuttle. During the rush hours, trains on this line run express on the Grand Concourse in the peak direction.
Trains on this line will run from 179th Street via Hillside Av/Queens Express, 63 Street/6 Av/Culver Local to Coney Island.
Trains on this line will run from Court Square to Church Avenue via Crosstown/Park Slope Local
Trains on this line will run Express from 57th Street/7 Av, Manhattan to 59th Street/4th Avenue, Brooklyn via Manhattan Bridge.
Trains will run from 179th Street via Hillside/Queens Local, Broadway Express, and Brighton Line to Coney Island. Trains alternate between Brighton Local () and Express ()
Trains will run from 71-Continental via Queens Local/53 St/6 Av Local/Culver Express to Coney Island. Trains will run express south of Smith-9 Streets, and run local in reverse-peak direction south of Church Avenue. Express trains will stop at 7th, Church, and 18th Avenues, Kings Highway, Avenue X, then all stops to Coney Island.
Trains run from Ditmars Boulevard to Coney Island via Broadway local, and West End to Coney Island.
The only problems I see with this are a few bottlenecks in the areas of the following stations:
West 4th Street
Canal Street
Queens Plaza/36th Street
trains would continue to run to Bay Parkway during rush hours.
What do you think?
Add one more bottleneck at Cranberry tunnel.
Arti
Another idea is to run the B Rush Hours only, since the D is there, and add more C trains.
I agree, but upper west side riders will cry like babies. Sixth Ave. service along the CPW local was always a rush hour only thing until recently (late 1988).
Eliminate M service to Manhattan midday. Just run M to Myrtle-Bdwy for J connection. City must watch payroll.
Forget any express service on Broadway in Manhattan. You are dreaming.
Don't add another line to the N right away. Add some extra service, and have a train that makes limited stops on N line in Queens, and terminate at Canal. Train can do Ditmars, 30thAve, Broadway, and 36th, and go right to Queensboro, then the city. Another N could leave Ditmars just one minute after this train leaves, to make all stops. Sounds crazy, but both trains will still be packed, or close to capacity, but should be able to at least get the doors closed by the second try.
Sounds great in theory but with all the switching at W4th there would be serious bottlenecks.6th ave express trains must switch to the local at W4th for access to 8th ave & Vice Versa.
Interesting.
But with all that service to Lefferts and the Rockaways, this sounds like overkill. I doubt there are enough cars to support such an arrangement.
Things will get very clogged between Chambers and Hoyt-Schermerhorn as well.
Oh, and all your images are broken.
Improperly stored construction material caught fire on the outbound third rail between Capitol Heights and Addison Road stations during morning rush hour yesterday. Brief mention in Washington Post.
I heard about this in one of Lisa Baden's traffic reports in which she reported this AND some delays on MARC which aren't really delays since they happen a lot, it's more like unprinted schedule changes. My guess is there was single tracking and some trains turned around at P&R Junction (or whatever it is called).
Do the trains have a destanation sign for Stadium-Armory? I assume they do...
E - 179th to WTC, Exp from Continental/71 to Queens Plaza, 53rd St Tunnel, Hillside and 8th Ave Local
F - 179th to Coney Island, Hillside/Queens Blvd/63rd St "Super" Express, 6th Ave Local
G - Court Sq to Church Ave
R - Unchanged
V - Jamaica Center to Grand St, Queens Blvd/6th Ave/53rd Local
B - 145th or Bedford Park Blvd to 34th via CPW Local
D - 205th to 34th, CPW express
N - Coney Island to Ditmars via Bridge and B'way/4th Ave Express except nights where it is totally local and runs via Montague.
W - Coney Island to 57th Street (Ditmars in rush hours) via West End and Montague, Local (6 AM to 10PM)
Q - Coney Island to 57th via Brighton Local, B'way Express (probably 24/7)
The only problem we have is that the E and Q riders mad, since...
E trains will be extremely crowded as the only Queens Blvd/53rd Express and goes to 179 instead of Jamaica Center (which will be taken over by the V)
Q will lose Brighton Express service, and extending/changing the M to Brighton Beach as a Local (making Q express from 6AM to 10PM) will not help matters, since many D/Q riders want Midtown Manhattan service.
But, there are a few benefits, as...
No Grand Street to Bway/Lafayette S shuttle, since the V will terminate there instead of 2nd Ave.
N and Q expresses restored.
W replaces N as the 2nd B'way local.
This plan might seem non-sensical, but comments are very welcome on this one.
Run the V to 179th via the local and the E to Jamacia Center. F makes express stops east of 71st Avenue when the V runs.
Proposed Queens Blvd subway changes
E- between Jamaica Center and World Trade Center-discontinue stops at Van Wyck/Briarwood and 75th Avenue at all times. Discontinue local stops between Continental Ave and Queens Blvd midnight hours
F- between 179th Street and Coney Island (or Kings Highway-rush hours)
Makes all stops between 179 th Street and 36th Street then via 63rd Street and current route via 6th Ave and Culver at all times.
G- will operate between Court Square and Church Avenue at all times
R- will operate between Continental Ave and 95th St/4th Ave 24 hours per day.
V- will operate between 179th Street and 2nd Ave daily except for midnight hours.
The V Train will follow the current F Line service except will make express stops between 179 th Street and Continental Ave weekdays 7AM to 7 PM. No midnight V Line Service.
For Queens Blvd service to the G -Line schedules to be coordinated mostly off peak between E and R Lines at Queens Plaza
E-SAME F-LOCAL via 53rd St Coney Island-179th Q-EXTEND 179th-via 63rd Express via Bdwy. EXP to Brooklyn. V-Grand to 71st/Continental via Local and 63rd St. New Brighton Local T Mon-Sat 6AM/9P ASTORIA-CONEY ISLAND. N/W EXPRESS TERMINATE 57th St 2 trains via 53 and 2 via 63rd. Broadway 2 Local 3 Exp Peak Hours. Like Pre 67 Christie St.
Issues with the availability of subway cars will be a problem. The R used to run to 179th as local and F as express to 179th several years ago. People complained back then about the R not running frequently enough and seeing those F trains go by. (people always whine, can't satisfy them all)
The F is also a significant main route. Making it local from 179th to 71st, along with the limited supply of trains, will make people along the entire F stations wait even longer. And that includes the local 6th Ave and Lower East Side stops in Manhattan.
Burlington VT (area pop. 150,000) because the 22nd US city to get a commuter rail system, albeit the smallest. The 13 mile line runs from Burlington, Vermont to Charlotte, Vermont and is called the Champlain Flyer. The service was intended to give drivers a second option when the main roadway would be engulfed in a consrtuction project, but now the plans have been ammended to keep the service indefinitly. By April there will be 10 round trips Monday through Friday and each train has 2 cars that each 150 people. There is one intermediate stop in Shelburne, but South Burlington will soon be added to the timetable. Initial service started on Monday with a train packed w/ 250 people and it is run by the Vermont Rail System.
Jeez, if Burlington VT can get commuter rail why not every other city in America?
Right , we'll call it the JFK Express!
avid
Vermont's one of the most liberal and environmental states. The state government fought to keep out Wal-mart. Also, the towns are walkable, so the passengers have somwhere to go once they get off the train. Mississippi is not about to follow its lead.
Accroding to the article I read there have been many attempts to kill the project. The assembly tried to kill it as late as last year and there were NIMBY conserns about noise at crossings.
this was apparently adressed by installing gates at all the grade crossings so the trains wouldnt have to sound their horns.. the question is, if the service is so small, theyre probably not running any trains late at night, so why would people care about noise during the day.. i think thats going a little too far, considering the extra money it took to install gates.. maybe im wrong..
Not sounding the horns at a crossing? I thought the FRA requires that?
this was apparently adressed by installing gates at all the grade crossings so the trains wouldnt have to sound their horns.. the question is, if the service is so small, theyre probably not running any trains late at night, so why would people care about noise during the day.. i think thats going a little too far, considering the extra money it took to install gates..
I heard the Vermont Rail System is also going to do a second line from Burlington to Milton. What kind of cars are used on the commuter line, Budd RDCs?
Didn't The Dallas -Ft. Worth commuter line refurbish about ten of twelve Budds ? Any one have the correct numbers and price tag?
avid
Will the rail line be electrified? If if does get electrified, then it would be beneficial to the enviroment.
Electrified or not its sure as hell better than all those people driving.
Depends on how they generate the electricity.
I know GMRC has ex Metro North RDC #53, nee NYC M-453
What happened on the bridge this morning at about 9:15 or so? My train was backed up and evacuated at Dekalb from the bridge approach. The announcements said variously sick passenger, injured passenger on the bridge, police activity. Sounds like someone tried to jump from a moving train.
Nothing on the bridge itself.
A boy fell off of a train.
I came to Sheepshead Bay this morning only to have to leave and go to the F train. After I had wasted my time trying to find a parking spot, I had to find another near Avenue X.
A child fell from a Q train to the tracks while trying to move between cars just north of Dekalb. Bottled up everything going thru Dekalb. I'm glad I put of my railfanning trip till tomorrow. Did the boy survive?
If anyone sees a 6'3 grown man wearing glasses with his faced pressed firmly against the railfan window of an R40 Q train rushing down the Brighton line can feel free to assume it's me and to introduce himself....lol
The boy did not from what News Radio 880 said. They also said the boy was leaning against the door when it swung open as the train was switching and he was thrown out. I would bet that it happened at the "B" end of the car. That's a dangerous place, the "B" end of a Slant, always has been.
wayne
Sad story. Watch the TA over-react by having all R40 slants lock their storm doors, like the 75' cars.
Obviously, that cannot happen. Locking the storm doors without an electric 'unlock' circuit would be a real danger in an emergency.
Question: On the old standards, and/or the AB cars- I recall those doorsa were locked -did they have an electric unlock
I thought they were open on the Standards - or am I thinking of the R-1/9?
Locked on the BMT standards; unlocked on the R-1/9s.
The BMT standards did have powered storm doors. This is an educated guess, but I would say they were electro-pneumatic powered, as were the side doors. Their controls were on the button consoles in the wide space between the center doors. IIRC, the storm doors had separate controls at the ends of the cars as well, underneath the single seats against the end bulkheads. Perhaps one of our BMT veterans can elaborate or clarify.
You're right, I never thought of that.
Watch 'em do it anyway.
Isn't the slanted end the A end? Just curious.
Yes, the slanted end is the "A" end, which is protected by a large array of hardware, albeit a small child could conceivably fall underneath the bars. It's the "B" end which is utterly unprotected except for a wrapped chain. There aren't any grab handles out there either like there are on all the other 60-foot cars. I NEVER cross between "B" ends of an R40 (either kind) while the train's moving.
wayne
Thanks. I personally don't particularly like to cross between cars when a train is moving to begin with (although you've seen me do it), and that tragedy underscores that reasoning.
BTW, I'm finally starting to get my photos from our expedition developed. Can't wait to see how that pic you took of me at Flushing Meadow Park turns out.
There was a tragic accident on the Q train. A 3 year old kid "fell" out of the train. I just heard it on the news. Apparently the kid fell out of his seat when the train jolted as it hit the switch after Dekalb (they showed it on the news, the switch for A/B or H tracks), the storm door flew open and the kid fell out onto the tracks and was killed.
A tragic, freak accident. The news is already at it blaming the safety of Slant R40 trains. So should they leave the doors open?
I think so, but perhaps they should not open so easily, I've never seen the doors on the LIRR open like that.
That explanation doesn't seem quite right. The door opens towards the seat, not away from it. If the child were rolling away from the seat, the door would be sliding shut as well. Even if the kid had been in a seat on the opposite side, there is still not enough time for the kid to gain sufficient momentum to just roll out the door without any possibility of someone being able to intervene. It seems to me that the kid was playing with the door, it opened, the train jerked and kid lost his footing. The slants aren't known for having the smoothest ride, but even pre-GOH, I've never experienced or heard of a ride so rough it was knocking seated passengers to the floor.
Here’s the Daily News story.
Here's the Times' story.
On Page 6 of today's NEWS, along with coverage of the story, there's a series of photos outlining the sequence of events. Unfortunately, the middle picture is of an R68- you can glimpse a bucket seat and the vertical ribbing on the walls. Of course, the doors between R68 cars are kept locked. The bottom photo clearly and correctly shows the area between two Slants.
The Slant involved in the accident was put out of service and taken to Coney Island yard for investigation, so the photographers probably used the next train they could find to take pictures of that area of the interior where the boy was standing.
But then, most subway riders wouldn't notice the difference.
One of the papers (I don't remember which) has a picture of a Redbird storm door.
After Jamaica Center, where do the tunnels go? I've read here often that there is NO switchover between the "J" and the "E". They are on different levels.
Does or was one planned to turn under the LIRR tracks and had south and eventually pop up and out and run next to or on the Montauk branch?
How long are current tunnels after Jamaica Center? Are they used for storage during inclement weather? Are tracks laid?
avid
There is no physical track connection between the two levels at Jamaica Center. The upper level (E) tracks turn south beyond the station and extend some 3000 feet to bumper posts. This part was supposed to continue to Rosedale along LIRR ROW. The lower level (J/Z) tracks extend straight ahead past the station and deadend past a scissor switch, IIRC. That portion was supposed to continue on to Hollis.
Are the 3000 ft of tunnel used to store rolling stock? Store anything?
thats about six full trains with room left over . I hope its used.
avid
It is. As many as 8 E trains are laid up east of Jamaica Center at night.
3000 ft is really long, you could add two or three stations in that tunnel.
It's not even 3/4 of a mile.
-Hank
Right, enough for one more IND station (½ mile seems to be the typical distance between local stops on Queens Blvd), or three IRT-type stations (basically every ¼ mile)
The 1968 plan for the full Archer Ave. line didn't call for any expansion of the J line past it's current terminus. Also, I believe there is no switch east of the J platform at Jamaica Center. AAMOF, you can't fit a full train from the edge of the platform to the bumper blocks. The 2 trains which can be laid up are partially inside the station.
What does AAMOF stand for ?
As a matter of fact...
I tend to use a lot of usenet abbreviations on this board. Sorry for any confusion.
The J line tracks(J1 and J2 tracks) on the lower level only extend for one train length up until the bumper blocks. Each track fully holds one J train without any part of the train remaining inside station limits.
The E line tracks(D1A and D2A tracks) on the lower level extend out to around 165th Street with one emergency exit between 164th and 165th Streets. These tracks have a medium S curve, a 5 mph speed limit and have a downgrade at the blocks. Each E track holds 3 layups each for a total of 6 layups.
There are no switches on either the E or J tracks, they never meet and both are used for layups 7 days a week.
The E line tracks are on the upper level.
[The E line tracks(D1A and D2A tracks) on the lower level extend out to around 165th Street ]
Is it 165 and Archer?
Arti
Archer Ave. becomes 89th Ave. just east of Parsons. I believe the tracks follow 89th ...
I thought Archer was 93rd Ave. I believe 89th Ave is north of Jamaica Ave.
:-)Andrew
...And could they put a station within this ROW?
:-)Andrew
IMHO they could add at least one station on the E line beyond Parsons/Archer, if not two.
HELP: I'm looking for someone to talk to about the door latches on the
R40 subway car. Please call me at 718-575-2559 or page me at
917-427-0526. I'm trying to interview an expert or enthusiast who has knowledge regarding the operation of the doors at the end of the R40, nomenclature for the latch and its
parts, diagrams, anything.
Thanks,
Dan Morrison
NEWSDAY
Try going on the section of this website that talks about the slants, AKA R40.
I was in Philadelphia from '89-93 and was coming down the stairwell of the Broad St line's City Hall station. The stairs were crowded with people and a local train was getting ready to pull out. A tall, thin man leapt past me, landed on the platform and leapt between the cars. He lost his footing just as the train was pulling out into a sharp curve, and he barely hung on, his legs dangling down towards the trackbed. I raced over to use the SEPTA police intercom and asked the operator to alert the motorman.
It did bother me a little that no one else on that platform moved a muscle to help him or showed any concern. In NY, I've had the experience of coming to someone's aid and a lot of other people helped me cheerfully.
I got on the next local, and since service was normal, I assume this man was not injured. Wherever he was going, he was in an incredible hurry.
"It did bother me a little that no one else on that platform moved a muscle to help him or showed any concern. In NY, I've had the experience of coming to someone's aid and a lot of other people helped me cheerfully."
It really bothers me too when people act like "I don't want to be involved" sort of attitude even if someone else's life depend on it.
the child's death on the train this morning is a horrible tragedy... i haven't the words to speak to the mother's pain and loss...
Heard on the news they were chinese and their destination was Grand street, one stop away.
The news was at Grand street, where their destination was. No wonder I saw some cameras around there this afternoon.
I spotted the cameras too on the southbound platform at the conductor's position after six. My conductor later commented that they were there for his good looks.
The WB11 Morning News was at DeKalb this morning.\
running on...
Yes, they were Chinese...
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/nyregion/AP-BRF-Subway-Death.html
Things like this make me scratch my head and ask "Why?"...
Nick
WHAT WAS A 3 YEAR OLD CHILD DOING NEAR THAT END DOOR IN THE FIRST PLACE?????????? PEOPLE DON'T THINK UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
zman, this may be true, but doors on subway cars shouldn't be flying open unless you grab the door's handle and pull on it.
Didn't the slant 40's return from their GOH without the storm doors latching properly?
As a kid I recall that the slant 40's storm doors latched quite well (i.e., you had to grab the door handle and pull it to the left to open the door).
I don't know if Slants suffer an inordinate number of non-latching storm doors - I've ridden on an awful lot of "L" and "Q" trains over the course of the last couple of years - I haven't seen much in the way of swinging "B" end doors. I would also guess that if this problem existed it would also be noticeable on the R40M cars as well, as these have the exact same "B" ends as the Slants do. Where do I see non-latching/swinging doors? Mostly on the Redbirds!
My guess is that a contributing factor in this accident was a defective door latch ON THAT CAR ONLY - and likely somebody walked through the car before the accident happened. Didn't the accident happen in the C/R's position, at least that's what I heard...
wayne
Wayne, you're probably more on the mark here, than I am (we hope).
One of the things I might do -- on one of my vacation days during the Xmas holiday -- is ride the Canarsie and J/Z lines and just check and see the amount of non-latching storm doors of the slant R-40/40M/42s to see if my theory holds any validity or as you point out it is just a rare occurance.
BMTman
Do this: the "L" line is full of curves: check for swinging doors at the following locations:
1) canarsie-bound entering LORIMER STREET station
2) canarsie-bound between MONTROSE AVENUE and MORGAN AVENUE stations
3) Both Ways between HALSEY STREET and WILSON AVENUE stations
4) manhattan-bound leaving JEFFERSON STREET station
5) manhattan-bound between BUSHWICK-ABERDEEN and WILSON AVENUE station
6) manhattan-bound approaching BROADWAY JUNCTION.
wayne
I remember one particular train on the Canarsie line all those years ago which had a swinging storm door on the car I was in. This storm door kept swinging back and forth, back and forth, all the way through the 14th St. tunnel. Can't remember if this was a train of BMT standards or R-7/9s.
R-40 storm doors latch very well up to this day. all storm doors on all model trains in the system latch. the only reason some don't latch is if the lock isn't is jammed or stuck or the door just won't close because of something in the door well causing difficulty. met a couple of them on R-62's and many more on R-28 redbirds.
I had the opposite problem today. I was walking through the train from the C/R position to the railfan window on a R40M/R42 mixed M train. Between the first and second car the storm door was jammed shut and I couldn't open it. I just settled for not having the railfan window today instead of running around at the next station :)
Shawn.
it is a horror to have your child fall out of a subway train, no matter what the cause or explanation...
As a child , and watch todays children, I notice they gravitate towards windows. To look out and see whats out in that magical underworld. They will climb on seats , flatten their little noses, just to catch a glimps of a light blub as it passes by in a blur. Perhaps the Mom just thought this was a safe place away from the side doors?
Its a terrible tragic lose. The scars from this hurt will be tender for this sad mothers life.
B E W E A R O F U N L O C K E D D O O R S !
Hold your childs Hand.
avid
okay, can someone tell me what happened to the kid?
(im not stupid, i just didn't pay attention to the news.)
He was killed.
Here's my transit-related quote of the day, from the NY Post article about the Q fatal accident...
"According to Wu, Mei said that when the door opened, she couldn't grab Austin before he fell because her way was blocked by passengers aboard the crowded train."
So, there were passengers who stood in between the mother and her child???
Why is the rail adhesion gar labelled with a "Y" in the front? Does it stnd for 'yard' or something? This does not seem to be but there shoulden't be a "line" designation at all on work cars.
-Dan
That sign has no meaning. It's just there.
I have to agree with the zman.
It just happens that the sign was set on that letter. Or prehaps it was put there simply because "Y" is a letter not yet assigned to a line in revenue service.
BMTman
About 3 weeks ago on my trip from Coney Island I was transferring from B to N at Pacific to go to WTC. And guess what? On express track pulls in revenue N train, but in front of it digital sign is showing "Y". I wish i had my camera with me.
The front digital signs can show any letter !!
Heck, it can show numbers! (digits 0-9)
And they would be as impossible to see as the letters in the digital end-signs on the R-32. IMHO, the digital end-signs were a poor decision in the rehabbing of the R-32s. When waiting for trains on the Broadway BMT, if an R-32 pulls in, you can't tell until the train is right up on you whether it's an 'N' or an 'R'. And I have 20/20 vision w/ my contacts. Perhaps it's the dirt on the end-sign, but more likely I think it's the small size of the sign and the small size of the pixels and the dull yellow coloring. I'm not sure, having only ridden the R-142A once, but this same problem might occur with them. All the end signs will be red LED displays, and rather small relative to the whole of the front of the car.
[IMHO, the digital end-signs were a poor decision in the rehabbing of the R-32s]
I somewhat agree. They should have put LED's there instead of flip-dots. It wouldn't hurt to put a destination display there, too.
[All the end signs will be red LED displays, and rather small relative to the whole of the front of the car.]
The thing with this is that the number could be clearly read from a distance, so I don't think there would be a problem if Transit washes the cars every so often.
Why couldn't the have put a huge flip-dot or LED where the current signs are on the R40/42/46/62/68's etc ?
With LED's you see them from a good distance away !!
That is strange.
Although it could be used for the 2nd Avenue Line. The Y train, as in "Y isn't it here yet?" or "Y is it taking so long (71 years so far, from the planning stages to today) to build?"
Why ask Y? Maybe it stands for Yard.:-)
Last week I passed by the SBK yard in Brooklyn and found these blue NYCT cars waiting to be scrapped. What are they and wht did they do?
-Dan
DWF, I've also seen the same cars down at the SBK yard. Near as I can gather they are a pair of generator cars used in conjunction with the emergency pumping equipment.
However, judging by the look of them I'd hazard a guess that they date back to pre-unification days (probably BMT equipment -- the pair is certainly sized for the B-Division).
BMTman
Where is the SBK yard located? I know in Brooklyn, but where exactly...
Thanks
39th Street and 2nd Ave. It is in the Bush Terminal waterfront area of the Sunset Park section of Brooklyn.
There is an exit for 39th Street off of the Gowanus Expressway (southbound).
I am giving a tour of the railroad routes in that area on Sunday, including the SBK yard (see upcoming events).
BMTman
A friend in NYCT has just called me to say that the blue cars sitting out in the SBK yard are a pair of Moblie Rail Welding Cars that were in use primarily on the Brighton Line. He even recalled seeing them at Newkirk Ave. amid a shower of sparks while rail was being welded there in the late 70's.
He says that the cars were also in use during the 80's on the Sea Beach Line when the middle (Express) tracks were being used for rail-fabrication (before Linden Shops was in full swing).
BMTman
Pigs and I are just about to finish our big NYC Subway entire system trip and we hit a little snag. We are going to end up having to transfer from the L at Liviona to Junius St. on the 3 sometime from 4-8 in the morning. Pigs said that this is a bad neighborhood and it would not recomend such a move at night. Can any of you subtalkers shed some light on when it is safe to make this connection and are there any way to make the connection possible whne it is not safe?
The manhattan bound platform at Livonia on the L is closed. That's the only problem I can see. It's a short walk from Junius to the Livonia station. You have to walk over an overpass. If you plan on taking the L toward Manhattan, you should get on the Rockaway Parkway bound L at Livonia and take that to Rockaway Parkway for a little sight seeing over there. You can catch the Manhattan bound L directly across the platform.
I would assume that my little problem at Livonia was due to the fact that I was by myself and a teenager. As long as you guys are travelling together than I don't see any problem with transferring there at any time. I'm convinced me that the area isn't as bad as I thought and that I just ran into some bad luck.
SubBus probably has the most insight on the area, give him an e-mail.
Shawn.
It is strongly suggested that you make the transfer during the daytime hours.
Prudence is always a good thing.
Please note, however, that, statistically, the subway tends to be safer than the neighborhood it's in. So you're more likely to be assaulted on the street. Also, past NYPD and MTA stats have shown, in general, 1 felony per day somewhere on the system. That means that you are not likely to be the victim of a crime on the subway, though at least one person in 7 million will be on a particular day.
I've made the transfer myself, albeit over six years ago. The neighborhood is very bad. However, it is a short walk. Only do this after sunrise, and proceed on that overpass directly to the station. Don't hang around. Good luck.
In my previous post, I ignored the fact that the intent was to leave the station and walk to another station thru the neighborhood. Also, the odds I stated should have been 1/4 million, not 1/7 million.
I don't think this tour would be eligible for Guinness Book consideration. You have to stay on the subway or within fare-control for that.
We're setting a completely new record. The simple plain travel over every route mile of the NYC subway and SIRR and SIF using whatever means possible record. This way it can be more of an action packed adventure like in the movie Run Lola Run. Our goal is to finish in under 24 hours
The Guinness record was 29 hours 47 minutes (set just after the Archer Av extension opened).
Its 22 and change, not 29.
And that was without leaving the fare control area, wasn't it? A change at Livonia would mean going out of fare control, wouldn't it.
Yes, we leave fare control several times. We have even worked out bus trips. One atlernate plan is to catch a bus from Rockaway Pwky. to somewhere on the 3.
Newspapers got it wrong, then...
Our record will be "shortest time travelling the entire subway from start to finish" We won't include "on one fare" in that.
I've never been in that area myself, although I've heard it's fairly rough (but then, you hear a lot of things). But keep in mind that between four and eight in the morning, especially as you get closer to eight, is probably the safest time of day at any location.
There is no transfer between those two lines in Brooklyn, is there? They're just two stations on two different lines which are relatively close together, like Queens Plaza (E,F,G,R) and Queensboro Plaza (N,7).
:)Andrew
The two lines are perpendicular to eachother (they meet at a right angle). The 3 line crosses above the L line. There is no transfer within fare control between the two, although it would probably be possible to contruct one.
Shawn.
Day time, during a bitter driving blizzard. Wear radio beacons for possilbe Air-Sea Rescue, Make haste, tattoo you name and Social Security ID on the Major body parts, prepare a will, be sure your LIFE insurance premium has been paid, don't drink the water, avoid direct eye contact, keep a low profile. God bless and keep you!
Amen!
avid
One example is when the Brooklyn Bridge station on the 6 was being renovated, the old side platforms were visible. Any other areas like this right now?
Speaking about Brooklyn Bridge (my home station), they recently closed off the exit that went from the station directly ontpo the walkway of the bridge. I rather liked that exit because of the feeling you get when you walk from a subterrainean train station right onto one of the grandest bridges in the world.
-Dan
My proposals on revisied Manhattan Bridge service reroutes
B-145th Street(Bedford Park Blvd rush hours) to 34th St/6th Ave except midnight hours
D-205th Street and 34th St/6th Ave at all times
N-No Changes
R-No Changes except R will operate 24 hours a day
Q-Stillwell Ave to 57th St/7th Ave via Brighton Local,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express at all times
T-Brighton Beach to 57th St/7th Ave via Brighton Express,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express Monday to Friday 6AM to 9PM
W-Stillwell Ave to Ditmars Blvd-via West End Local,4th Ave Express,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express(Canal St to 42nd St) then via N Line to Astoria except peak hours express from Queensboro Plaza to Astoria Blvd reverse peak to Queens AM,to Brooklyn PM. Monday to Friday 6 AM TO 9PM. Evenings and Weekends W Line will operate between Stillwell Ave to 57th St/7th Ave skipping 49th Street. Midnight hours shuttle between Stillwell and 36th St/4th Ave
New Shuttle service between Grand Street and West 4th Street at all times.
Possible Shuttle Bus between DeKalb Ave Station and Grand Street Station over Manhattan Bridge. Canal Street Station to far away from Grand Street . Free Transfer to/from Shuttle Bus without using Metro Card Transfer
Thank You
I like the idea of a shuttle bus from Grand St to Dekalb Ave.
My proposals on revisied Manhattan Bridge service reroutes
B-145th Street(Bedford Park Blvd rush hours) to 34th St/6th Ave except midnight hours
D-205th Street and 34th St/6th Ave at all times
N-No Changes
R-No Changes except R will operate 24 hours a day
Q-Stillwell Ave to 57th St/7th Ave via Brighton Local,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express at all times
T-Brighton Beach to 57th St/7th Ave via Brighton Express,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express Monday to Friday 6AM to 9PM
W-Stillwell Ave to Ditmars Blvd-via West End Local,4th Ave Express,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express(Canal St to 42nd St) then via N Line to Astoria except peak hours express from Queensboro Plaza to Astoria Blvd reverse peak to Queens AM,to Brooklyn PM. Monday to Friday 6 AM TO 9PM. Evenings and Weekends W Line will operate between Stillwell Ave to 57th St/7th Ave skipping 49th Street. Midnight hours shuttle between Stillwell and 36th St/4th Ave
New Shuttle service between Grand Street and West 4th Street at all times.
Possible Shuttle Bus between DeKalb Ave Station and Grand Street Station over Manhattan Bridge. Canal Street Station to far away from Grand Street . Free Transfer to/from Shuttle Bus without using Metro Card Transfer
Thank You
Adding additional Shuttle Buses in the Canal/Grand St area will only add to the traffic congestion it already has from vehicles travelling from Manhattan Bridge to Canal to Holland!
I do like that idea of the Grand St shuttle running to West 4th, however.
Having worked in the area you are correct about the traffic congestion. However I believe that people coming from Brooklyn to the Grand Street Station will find the walk from Canal Street much too far. Another possibility revive the Grand Street Crosstown bus
Thank You
Most of the people that I noticed that used the Grand St Station came from and went to uptown, not Brooklyn, so if they are going to Brooklyn they could walk to the J/M/Z and take those trains to Transfer points. like they did for 50 years before 67.
So walk to a different station. Canal isn't the only one, you know.
Nobody rode the Grand Street bus when it was last in service. Will anyone ride it now?
Reverse the T and Q. Make the Q express since you are renaming the Q the T. It is confusing. Also, who needs R service 24/7???
Some time last year, I heard a guy tell the engineer of the N train I was riding on from astoria that they were going to build a ramp down to the 63rd. st. tunnel, and send the N down 6th av to west 4th, and then to lefferts blvd.
I'm not sure which drugs that guy was on to come up with that insane idea, but hey, maybe they should do it and throw it into the mix to keep rider-confusion as high as possible!
(my one sarcastic post of the week)
-Joe
Must of Been Fred, breathing in the Arcadia Air
A 21-year-old woman was killed in Ambler as she walked across the tracks at the Ambler station. Trains approached from both directions and she heeded one of them. I learned of this in an article in Tuesday's Inquirer about the need for people to be educated about train safety, prompted by this death and that of the 14-year-old boy killed by the Metroliner in Sharon Hill last Tuesday, mentioned in message 172302.
Jeez, have you read all the death by train posts within the last 2 weeks? They're droping like flies! Do the holidays make people more stupid or something?
This time of year brings out a lot of depression in many people, and depressed people will kill themselves by any means at hand. Commuters, railworkers and railfans, watch out!
Buy most of the recent deaths are of people trying to beat trains. What's up w/ that?
"But most of the recent deaths are of people trying to beat trains. What's up w/ that?"
Maybe it's just a cluster, a statistical phenomenon where random events bunch up and appear to be occurring for some non-random reason. An example of a cluster is getting heads five times in a row in a coin toss.
If it isn't a cluster, I would guess that more people are running for the train because the cold weather makes them even less amenable than usual to waiting for the next train.
I remember seeing a picture of a woman whose car had been hit by an LIRR train at a crossing where the double gate was down, lights flashing and bell ringing. The car started across the intersection despite the fact that the train (a consist of M-1 cars) had already sounded a warning blast.
The car was dragged for a quarter mile. Not only that, the train blew its tires clean off. From the photo is was obvious that the car must have contacted the third rail at some point (million amps at 750 volts DC). The naked axles meant the car was also connected to ground, creating a circuit.
Even if the motorist had survived the impact of a train cleared to go 75-90 on that stretch of track, what would have prevented her from being fried extra-crispy?
It must have been horrible for the train operator. Going home at night thinking he'd just killed somebody, and going over and over it in his head. He was helpless to do anything about it.
If someone is determined to kill oneself, not much you can do about it. It would be nice, though, if that person would not subject others to the emotional trauma of being part of what makes the death happen. It would also be nice if that woman had thought about her son, who would now be without a mother. Of course, perhaps she was merely being impulsive.
I understand that LIRR has received a $50 million grant to work on replacing grade crossings around New Hyde Park with overpasses or underpasses, similar to what was done at one side of Mineola station.
Saturday at New Brunswick, A guy jumped in front of a Acela Regional as it blew past New Brunswick Station.
From the details of the NJT engineer I talked to, the guy commited suicide and at the rate of speed the body just exploded. I feel horrible for those that witnessed that.
I was on a NJT NE Corridor train this past sunday and as we entered New Brunswick station, the engineer opened the front end door and side door on the track side, there was still internal organs layed out on the track, NOT A PRETTY SIGHT, I damn near threw up!
Regards
Trevor Logan
Those bent on suicide will not care who gets offended by what they do. Anything can set someone off, be it the death of a family member, loss of job, money woes, you name it. Trains are useful to these unfortunates because they are fast, get the job done, and most of all, are quick. I bet AMTRAK pulled the poor operator and put him through a slew of drug and alcohol tests and then questioned the daylights out of him about why he did not stop in time. No one can predict what some suicidal person will do, especially someone who is not expecting to be an instrument of death.
Oh no, he jumped like a slipt second before the trains approach! There was no time for a emergency break till after the fact!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I bet AMTRAK pulled the poor operator and put him through a slew of drug and alcohol tests and then questioned the daylights out of him about why he did not stop in time.
While the ENGINEER (not operator) would have had to take a Federally mandated "whiz quiz" Amtrak would not have bothered him about his role in the accident aside from a statement. Management does understand that sucides are common and there is nothing the engineer can do besides blow the whistle and put the train BIE A.S.A.P Usually its some stupid family that sues and asks the hard questions. The RR is always there w/ legal assistance for the engineer.
Anything can set someone off, be it the death of a family member, loss of job, money woes, you name it.
An event isn't necessary to set off depression; many cases are caused by the individual's neurochemistry. Many depressed people aren't depressed "about something" or as a natural reaction to a serious life event; they're depressed because their chemistry is a little off.
I am very surprised that more of these tragities are not caught on film by railfans. A good moment of impact photo blown up on large station posters just might get the message out to the non-sucidial morons who think they can beat the train. It might also turn some of the 'siders to less gashtly methods like jumping off a bridge. I'd be interested in the impact physics involved.
[It might also turn some of the 'siders to less gashtly methods like jumping off a bridge. I'd be interested in the impact physics involved.]
You're a sick puppy.
BMTman
What time of day did this happen? (Also, in your subject you say "woman killed," but in your post it mentions a man.)
On Saturday, I was on the 11:32 NJT NEC train out of Penn Station. My window seat was on the left side of the train, so I had a trackside view. At one point, I definitely recall seeing people on the tracks, but I can't remember exactly where on the line. It was so fast, but it seemed oddly dangerous for those people to be where they were, if there was indeed more than one person. I can't really remember. I could only glimpse him/them for a couple seconds. I know it was well after Newark, and well before Princeton Junction. (I slso know that doesn't really narrow it down.) Also, if there was more than one person on the tracks, one of them, the one closest, was definitely moving perpendicularly across the tracks towards our train. I commented to my wife that people were crossing the tracks, and that the engineer was probably radioing the trespassers in. (She raised her eyebrows, said, "Oh, really? Wow!" and then went back to her cloudy slumber.) I'm pretty sure I did not see any safety vests. I only thought of this later on in the trip when I saw workmen with vests, which made me wonder, in the back of my mind, whether what I saw "crossing the tracks" was perhaps a work-crew. However, the person's/people's behavior in walking slowly across the tracks did not seem crew-like at all. I may have seen the "victim" draw his last breaths.
I have a relative who is a veteran engineer for NJT, who has stories of such incidents, some of which are pretty wild. If you've been an engineer (or, I daresay, an MTA motorman) for long enough, I'm sure you get to see it all, especially around the suicide-heavy holidays.
The engineer I was speaking with about and who showed me the grusome after effects didn't give me a time frame, but by your location and station descriptions, that puts you at New Brunswick Station also.
Regards,
Just reporting that I saw a fairly large fire brewing beneath the southbound Livonia station on the L line @ about 6:00 p.m. this evening.
To me it looked like it was burning from the Bay Ridge ROW, but I couldn't be sure due to the poor lighting (I observed it from the railfan window of a slant 40). For all I know the fire could have been started by a homeless person trying to keep warm in one of the three box cars situated under the Livonia Station near Riverdale Ave. (there is a small freight-loading station there).
In any event I alerted the station master of this situation when we pulled into Rockaway Parkway station.
BMTman
In category T-407 (Line Structures) in the MTA/NYCT 2000-2004 Capital Program there is talk of permanent removal of some structures on the Nassau and the Canarsie line.
Does anyone know what structures they're refererring to on the Nassau line?
I can understand the removal of some structure on the Canarsie line near Altantic since it seems to be a great mess of ironwork. Does anyone know what all of that was for? What line or whatever made use of all of that now mostly abandoned structure?
Shawn.
>>>I can understand the removal of some structure on the Canarsie line near Altantic since it seems to be a great mess of ironwork. Does anyone know what all of that was for? What line or whatever made use of all of that now mostly abandoned structure?<<<
This was used by the old Fulton Street el.
As far as the Nassau St. line goes, here's the plan: close down and seal off what are now the Queens-bound platforms at Canal St. and the Bowery. Knock down the wall at the south end of Canal, and run the Queens-bound track into the now-unused trackway that used to be J4 track. It will continue this way to the Bowery, and then into the middle at Essex St. J3 track will be taken out completly from Canal to south of Essex. J1 track will remain in place to be used as a bypass, and perhaps for lay-ups in bad weather. This project is supposed to take 3 years.
Heh, that makes a lot of sense. That's why they only renovated the Manhattan bound side of Canal. Talk about a major change geez. It's kinda sad to see all these stations on the Nassau line gone to hell since the Chrystie Street connnetor was built. I'm sure they have a lot of history that isn't very well documented.
Does anyone have information regarding the Nassau line stations in Manhattan? I want to try to piece together a little article based on it. Maybe some highlights of it's existence and it's sad decline. What services ran through it, special or regular? Information about R line specials on the Nassau line? I'm especially interesting in why it was built the way it was, and how it fell into disrepair. Any pointers to existing information is welcome. Most of these happenings are from before my time, so I have no memory to work off of. Full credit will be given to those who contribute.
I wonder if it's worth mentioning to the Transit Museum or somewhere having a tour or something of the area before it's gone. Either that or sometime after they finish the project, maybe have a tour of what used to be there, what purpose it was served and when it was abandoned. That is if there's anything left after they close it up.
Shawn.
Yes, the Nassau St. line is very interesting. If you take a look at this 1914 map from the BMT Lines website , you can see that originally it was going to be connected with the Brooklyn Bridge too.
I have a question too, about those old R specials. My question is, "did they use the Nassau loop, onto the Manhattan Bridge, after dumping their load at Broad, Fulton, and finally, Chambers"?
No. The special R train did not come into existance until 1968, when the RJ was eliminated. The RJ, concieved with the opening of the Chrystie St. connector, ran from 95th St to 168th St Jamaica via Nassau St.
Most of these special trains didn't "terminate" at Chambers St. I remember riding them to Metropolitan Ave and to Eastern Parkway, where they laid up until the PM rush began.
The Nassau St line today is very different than what it was. Originally, known as the Centre St. line, it terminated at Chambers St. Trains from the Williamsburgh Bridge began running thru it when it opened in 1914. In 1915, when the 4th Ave. subway in Brooklyn was complete, trains began operating from it via the Manhattan Bridge. The portion south of Chambers which runs under Nassau St. was opened in 1931.
Besides the three eastern division lines which served it (10, 14,15), the Culver (5) and West End (3) was a main user of the line, as well as special trains operating via the Brighton and 4th Ave. lines (known as Banker's specials: 1/2). The Manhattan Bridge connection was permanently severed in 1967.
The old Fulton/Pitkin El ran on the eastern-most portion of the structure at Atlantic Avenue.
It is essentially excess steel. It's not in the way or anything, just old and would eventually would need retrofitting if it were to survive into the 21st Century. So it'll become scrap metal for NYCT.
BMTman
I'm just back from a day-trip to Washington, DC. I was invited by the government to chair a session at a workshop entitled "Weather Information for Surface Transportation." Whew! Talk about Transit and Weather Together!
Anyway, I flew into DCA, and walked over to the Metrorail. I caught a Blue Line train at about 8:00am. The operator spoke in a slight southern twang, with a deep voice, in a slow cadance. At each stop, he announced:
"This station is Crystal City. Doors open on the right. The time is 8:02 a.m. Have a nice day!" (Of course, insert the correct station and time for each stop.) He would draw out certain syllables, so it sounded more like, "Eight oh two aaaaaaa emmmmmmm. Have a niiiiiiice dayyyyyyyyyyyyyy!"
Entering the Pentagon, he saw a huge crowd. So he added, "Holy cow. Look at allllllll those peeeeeeeople. You all just squeeeeeeeeeeze in real tight." And then when no more could enter the train, he said, "Well all you people still on the platform, it looks like the only room is on top of the train. And I don't recommmend that. So please watch my closing doors".
As I exited at Metro Center, he gave the usual "Have a niiiiiice dayyyyyyyy!" and then added in a very high, squeaky, falsetto voice, "You have a nice day too, Mister Train Operator!"
Very nice.
LOL, I remember that guy. I had taken the blue line train to the Smithsonian for the earth day thing at the smithsonian field. Wehn he announced Smithsonian, he was like "Next stop, Smithsoooooooooooooooooonian". Everyone had these strange looks on their faces, as if they were wondering, "Is this guy drunk or something?" Although I never really heard him say anything else, I can certainly imagine him saying that.
I've ridden that guy's trains, too. He would say things like "This is our first stop in the Commonwealth of Virginia!"
Michalovic
There was a conductor on the F train in the 1970's who made a similar announcement: "Next and laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast stop - 179th St. Jamaica". Sometimes he would drag out the word "last" for over 30 seconds!
Numerous times on the F, I've heard the conductor say "F train to One-Seven-Nine," probably more times than I've heard "One seventy-ninth Street." Also, a conductor on the 6 once said "This is Three-Three Street."
There was a similarly "animated" conductor on the 6 that I would get occasionally: "14th Street, transfer here for: The 4! The 5! Thee N'n'R, and L trains to Canarsie! Downtown number six train to Brooklyyyyyyn Briiiiiiiidge. The next stop will be Astor Place, Cooper Union, step in and stand clear of the closin' doors."
(Trying my best to imitate inflection with text...)
"Mister Train Operator!"?
Are they still called Train Operators, even though they are not actually doing so? In light of ATO, shouldn't they perhaps be called D/O's [Door Operators]? :o)
They really aren't susposed to do the comments about how crowded the train is. I've never gotten this guy because I hardly ever use the blue line but I've had a guy on the red line who says "Have a nice day", "Have a nice weekend", or "Have a nice evening" depedning on the day of the week and time of day. Last I had him he was working weekday rush hours (he had the split shift) and Saturday afternoons. The last time I heard him but wasn't on his train was at Metro Center about 11 months ago. The "Have a nice day" gets annoying after awhile, especially if you are on his train for 45 minutes. He also reminds passengers at selected stations (Cleveland Park and Farragut North among others) to take all personal belongings and newspapers and magazines when leaving the train.
The other operator who I like to comment about is this one who talks like a computer. He will say "This is Friendship Heights. (pause) First station in the District of Columbia. (pause) Doors open, (pause) left (pause) side. He announces the train goes to both Downtown Washington AND Silver Spring in the morning, he also has the split shift and I heard him in the afternoon with the same announcement except he was going to Wheaton (this was before Glenmont opened). Once in DC or while heading away from DC, he omits the Downtown Washington announcement. He also announces the time at selected stations which is REALLY annoying because it sounds like "Tenleytown, (pause) American University, (pause) doors open, (pause) left (pause) side. Also, at the current time it is eight fifteen, (pause), eight fifteen (pause) AM." He also repeats the "Next station, Grosvenor and is the last stop on the red line for this train" when leaving Medical Center. He used to have the run from Grosvenor that stopped at Tenley at 8:15 AM and that put him on the run terminating at Grosvenor at 7:50 AM. I also had him on the run terminating at 8:26 AM. Has anyone had this guy at a transfer point? I never have but if his announcements are as bad as they are in Montgomery County, I pity those who listen to him at Metro Center.
There was(is) a MARTA T/O on the Dunwoody line who did his annoucements pretty cool, he sounded just like Barry White. We would go over an interstate that was backed up and he would be like, "Chill that Atlanta traffic, we're going to get you there MARTA style." He would sing songs, too. They had a newspaper article about him and it said people would wait specifically for his train.
When I rode MARTA, it was the east-west and Proctor Creek lines that didn't use the manual announcements. It's too bad they don't do that on the WMATA Orange Line. Maybe the Orange Line T/Os could do some kind of thing over the PA while crusing down I-66. If all the cars rolled down their windows and the exterior speaker is loud enough, people stuck in traffic could hear it.
Given the recent rash of incidents I thought it would be best to skip the queue* and post this Hot Times about a tragic grade crossing accident out hero was involved in. There is a followup article where he describes a subsuquent suicide and how he dealt with it all. If you wish I could cut that to the front of the line also.
**********************************************************************
Today: Why we Blow our Whistles at Crossings
I'll give a brief rundown of the trip preceeding the collision for
background purposes. We were ordered for 1600 hours at Fond du Lac on the afternoon of 18 October 1989. After our airtest and roll-by, we departed Shops Yard @ 1700 hours with the 6522 (in WC paint), 6502 and 6501 with 41X74, 6415 tons.
We set-out the 6501 at Byron after climbing the mountain and proceeded onto Waukesha where we met TO41. We stopped again at Burlington to setout 5X4, 721 tons and back on the move @ 2000 hours. At Nestle we met L5455, the Burlington Patrol who spotted a dangerous defect in our train and promptly notified us. My Conductor inspected the suspect car and determined it had stuck brakes and serious brakeshoe build-up on the wheels and we had to set the car out. Due to the nature of this type of defect, material from the
brakes shoes overheats as do the wheels of the car and a metallic like
substance builds up on the wheels allowing them to be lifted above the rail as wheel is now riding on the build up instead of on the wheel tread. This can cause the car to "walk off" the rail and derail. We had to proceed at about 5 mph to Wheatland to setout the car. After the airtest we departed Wheatland @ 2125 with 36X69 5662 tons and about 6600 feet of train.
I should mention two items before we go on here. First off, we had trouble making any kind of speed with this train due to the length and weight, as only two units were not providing for much. Second, we encountered a rain/snow mixture for part of the trip between Wheatland and Silver Lake making for slippery rail which also didn't help our cause.
We met TO43 at Silver Lake. He wasn't quite in the clear yet, so we were operating well less than track speed to avoid stopping and having crossings blocked while we waited for him to enter the siding and clear for us. Once he cleared and we got the clear signal at Silver Lake East, we began to attempt to get the train up to speed. We still had the wet rail a little way east of Silver Lake where the precipitation mixture subsided and we got back onto dry rail again, As we entered Illinois near Antioch we dropped into a sag that gave us a little momentum and we finally started to get some speed reaching a hair raising 40 mph and I commented to the affect we were finally starting to move along. We entered Antioch and started to proceed through town and its numerous, fairly closely spaced crossings. Track speed through here was 50 mph.
The whistle was being blown almost constantly due to the close proximity of the crossings. As we started up the grade towards Route 173, we could see the "snitch lights" on the sides of the roundels illuminating indicating the signals there were activated and working properly. I had just come over Ida Avenue and no sooner finished whistling it when I began my sequence of two longs, a short and a long for Route 173. By this point my speed was starting to increase and I hit 42 mph.
As we closed in on Route 173, an auto rapidly approached and Brian yelled "that son of a bitch is going!". He was across and gone in an instant. At this the moment he came directly into my path, I was about 400 feet from the crossing and closing in at a little over 50 feet per second. I got enough of a look at the car to determine that it was a full sized GM product and it was gone. Just then, I caught a flash of headlights in my peripheral vision to my left. It was just a brief flash of light. With the control stand to my
left, the radio mounted above the automatic brake valve and the the
telemetry receiver mounted directly above the brake pipe gauges, my range of vision to the left is greatly diminished.
We continued towards the crossing with the whistle and bell sounding. Then Brian screamed out "OH MY GOD!" At 2155 hours on the evening of October 18th, 1989, my life changed forever.
Before I could even react, there was a tremendous impact and horrible
crashing sound and the screetch of grinding metal. The impact was so great that the engine leaned far over to my right pushing me into the window. Brian was thrown out of his seat and onto the floor. I immediately reached over and put the train into emergency. Simultaneously, I jumped up and ran around to get behind the control stand. I remember thinking that we were about to go over onto our side and knew that I wanted more between me and mother earth than just a window. As I was moving to the backside of the
control stand, I hit the Dispatcher call in button on the radio. This all happened within the course of maybe three seconds tops. It all seemed like it was in slow motion and took forever to occur. I honestly don't know how I managed to do so much in such a short time. It all happened far faster than it is taking you to read this.
A tremendous amount of activity was now taking place in an instant. As the engine came back down after leaning to the right, it bottomed out and began to bounce vertically. We bottomed out several times. And then the slack began to crash into us.
The emergency rate of brake pipe application was advancing through the train at a rate of 900 feet per second. This means that the entire train would not be into the emergency application for about 7 seconds from the time I first dumped the air. An emergency application of the brakes starts a sequence of events that cannot be controlled. Two of them are slack action as the train is slowing down rapidly at different rates and a tremendous change in the dynamics of the train make-up occurring simultaneously. The tail end of the train is still moving at the speed it was when I first put it into emergency. The head end is trying to stop at the same time. The run in of slack was incredible. As it started to reach us, it slammed hard into the engines throwing both of us forward into the front bulkhead of the cab. It hit us again several more times. Now, we were slowing down rapidly.
By this point the Dispatcher has come onto the radio answering my call-in signal. I run back over to it and yell out that we just collided with a vehicle in Antioch. There are probably three things that a Train Dispatcher probably hopes to never ever hear. This is one of them. The Dispatcher was my friend and well seasoned veteran John Busa. He immediately knew what to ask and what to do. "Which crossing? Do we need an ambulance?" What crossing is this? Oh shit! What is the name of this crossing? "Uh, it's the second crossing west of the hotbox detector!" By now, the train has come to a stop. The Engineer on 43 hears this and tells John it is Rt 173. He again asks with the phone in his ear already ringing up the Antioch Police if we need an ambulance. I remember telling him "it was a tremendous impact; ya, you better get one going!"
I'm helping Brian up off the floor and making sure he is OK when John calls back and says emergency people are enroute. He then asks if we are OK and do we need any medical attention. Ironically, he is the only person from the railroad to ever ask that question that entire night until we talked to the claim agent much later.
As Brian is getting his coat on, we now start to wonder about the train and hazmat. With the incredible slack action that had just taken place, we realize that we could very likely be derailed. We had a block of 22 empty 89 foot pipe flats in the middle of the train with heavy loads of roofing granules and rolled paper behind them. A quick look at the paperwork shows no hazmat back there. Relief, if only for a moment.
Brian heads out the front door to discover the steps are all smashed in on the left front and heads out the back door instead to proceed back to the scene. By now, the ghouls are all coming out in force to take a look at what happened. I have people approaching the engines to see the carnage. I actually had to threaten one guy with two little kids with arrest. He was telling me it was "his right" to see this. I told him the police would take him to jail if he came any closer.
I proceeded to make a quick inspection of the motive power to check for any kind of fire or fuel leaks. I took a quick look at the damage and almost lost it. There was flesh and hair on the left front side of the number 1 trucks and on the remains of the steps. I quickly climbed back into the cab to see if Brian had made it back there yet. Just as I entered the cab again, John called to see if we had any more information about injuries. That was just about the time Brian came upon a body of a now deceased, 16 year old girl. The emergency response people had arrived just moments before Brian found her, but hadn't reached him or her yet. How he stayed in one piece is beyond me. Must have found that hidden strength we all have. I reported this information to the Dispatcher. This news totally devastated me. I can only imagine what this sight did to Brian.
During this period of time, I perform two tasks that I never once even
thought about doing, I just did them. First, I sat down and pulled out a sheet of paper and wrote out every possible detail I could remember that occured just prior to, and then after the point of impact. Then I went outside and did a thorough inspection of my motive power and made a full report of all damages. Upon inspecting the right rear of the 6522, I discovered the ballast in the rear of the locomotive has been pushed through the carbody just above the access door to right rear sander relays. This most likely happened either when the train started to slam into us or when we bottomed out all those times. Both of these documents were later subpoenaed as evidence.
Now the Paramedics are working feverishly to remove another person, another young girl from the car. I was told they used the "Jaws of Life " to assist in extracating her from the car. Brian informs me that another fatality is discovered; another 16 year old girl. The girl trapped in the car is still alive though. By this point in time, two officers from the Antioch Police Department arrive and board the locomotive. Both of them realize the hell I am going through and do their best to calm me down. Now I had quit smoking in 1982, but the first thing I asked the two officers is if either one of them had a cigarette. They interviewed me and informed me that the coroner had been called and he too, would have to interview me before we would be released. They stayed up there with me for quite some time to make sure I was going to be OK. They also kept asking me if I needed any medical attention.
What seemed like an eternity passed and Brian told me that the third girl, the driver of the car had also passed away. I relayed this information to John and informed him that both Brian and myself wished to be relieved. He relayed that information to the Chief. A little while later, he came back on to inform us that the Trainmaster at Schiller Park, Doug Thereoff, refused our request as he was planning to run a work train in the morning and didn't want to "waste this crew for us". How considerate and compasionate. There was no love lost between Doug and I prior to this, and this gave me all the reason to despise him yet even more. He never even left the office to head up to the scene. He told us later that he figured there was no reason for him to be there and also there was nothing he could do anyway.
After the Paramedics were finished, Brian was brought up to the head end by another one of Antioch's finest. We were told that the Coroner was out for the evening and was enroute to interview us and pronounce death, but it would be awhile. A WC track supervisor and a signal maintainer had arrived at the scene and had talked to Brian. The track supervisor was kind enough to inspect the train for us, and to our shock, inform us that everything was on the rail and nothing shifted or off center.
Finally, the Coroner arrived and interviewed us. He too, was very
compassionate to our situation and did his best to make us feel at ease. With all of that finally taken care of, we were released at 2329 hours, 2 hours and 34 minutes after the collision occurred.
Neither Brian nor I felt we were in any condition to proceed, but our old pal Doug at Schiller Park thought otherwise. We then proceeded to take the train east to Schiller Park, never once exceeding 20 mph the rest of the trip. When we finally arrived at Schiller at 0120, Doug started to give us all kinds of instructions about our setout and pickup and taking the train through to the IC at Markham. We informed him we were all finished for the rest of the evening and to call a cab. I told him if he so worried about the train he could take it himself.
Upon our arrival in the office there, Doug tells us we need to call the
Antioch Police as they had a couple of more questions they needed answered and to call the claim agent. We did both and the while talking to the claim agent, he asked if we were alright and if we needed medical attention. After getting all this taken care of, we finally got our cab to the hotel.
I didn't sleep a wink the entire night (or morning as the case was). I kept going over time and time again, what had transpired. I was trying to think of what I should have done differently. Maybe I should have layed-off sick. Something, anything. Ten years later, I still wonder. I did nothing wrong. I violated no rules and broke no laws. Yet I got all the guilt. I don't suppose it helped when the word "babykiller" was mentioned by someone close to one of the deceased in the media. Ya right, like I chased these three girls down the street, up their driveway and into the garage, then hit them when they weren't looking. Interestingly enough, the driver of the car didn't go to school that day as she was "too sick". Apparently she made a complete recovery in time to go out that evening and play cat and mouse with the car in front of them that made it across the tracks without getting hit. This was all learned during the period of discovery.
The following legal proceedings only helped to make this situation worse. I spent over 7 hours in deposition. Have the transcripts to prove it. Lawyers! The families made sure I was served with a subpoena on Thanksgiving Day, only fortunately for me, I wasn't home to receive it. Guess this was their way of getting even. Screwed up their plans.
I never saw the car. It never made past the front of the engine. The front drawbar hit solidly right behind the right front wheel well. The car was spun a little more than sideways and wound up completely off the road and onto the right of way just east of the crossing. The engine block was ripped completely out of the car. The dashboard to was also torn out. The speedometer was stuck at 50 mph. The two passengers never had a chance. At least one of them was physically struck by the locomotive. I did see pictures of the car some time later. It once was a Chevy Caprice. It was completely destroyed. The salvage yard it was taken to eventually scrapped it as they told the claim agent absolutely nothing was salvagable on it.
In the legal proceedings that followed, first I was accused of speeding. They had a witness who claimed I was going at least 70 mph. That was proven not to be true. The final results were something like 42.1 mph. Then, I was accused of not whistling, again, disproven. Finally, they tried to say the crossing signals were not functioning. The kid who made it across in front of us, after first denying even being there or knowing these girls, claimed he was on the crossing and we were right there and the signals were not working. They also brought in a police dispatcher who claimed she too was almost hit by a train at that very crossing the day prior to the wreck. Unfortunately for her, the Dispatcher's sheet and hotbox detector tapes showed no train within 25 miles of that crossing at the time she swore it happened. A witness stopped at the crossing heading the other way stated they were working just fine as he saw them and was stopped awaiting our passage.
The legal proceedings were all settled in 1992 outside of court and
fortunately for Brian and myself, we didn't have to testify. From what my lawyer told me, the families actually lost money by filing suit. Too bad, so sad.
Am I bitter about the legal proceedings? Damn right I am. My world was
turned upside down by somebody else's negligence and I have to defend myself and my actions. Some lawyers approached these families telling them they could make millions over this. Don't accept responsibility, just sue somebody else. I feel terrible enough that these young girls died, don't make me the scapegoat for something I didn't do. Maybe the mother of the girl who cut school that day for allegedly being sick should shoulder the responsibility. Did it ever occur to her that just maybe her daughter was too sick to drive? As a result, they all wound up dead.
I have been involved in several crossing collisions since then and a
suicide. Ironically, the suicide occurred just nine days after the Antioch episode and just five miles from that scene.
Maybe life truly is stranger than fiction.
Tuch
*Actually I first got this piece sometime before Hot Times was even started. It was later included as a Hot Times as well as article in the BLE newsletter.
Good Ol' America. People try to make money off tragedy and try to blame hard workers for their daughter's neglegence. At least they didn't win.
But to put somebody back on the (rail) road after such a traumatic incident is inhumane. Well so is Capitalism.
Everytime I read stories like this it re-enforces why I'm a socialist.
Yes, socialism is much more humane.
Everytime I read stories like this it re-enforces why I'm a socialist.
Under socialism, not only would the crew been ordered to continue the run, they would have been shot if they hadn't.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
<< From what my lawyer told me, the families actually lost money by filing suit. Too bad, so sad. >>
No, what's sad is that after examining the evidence, the families lawyers chose to continue the suit. Of course, we live in a world of "file the suit first, examine the evidence later," also known as Ready-Shoot-Aim. Those lawyers should have been disbarred.
IOPUXY
Those six letters are the only ones remaining which have not been used by the IND/TA/MTA lettering schemes. I'm probably wrong but IND numbering schemes used to go up to 17 or 18 (that was before my time) so 19 and on up to infinity have yet to be used either.
I looks too much like a one, and so may never be used.
Ditto O, which looks like a Q from far enough away.
P is what too many vagrants do in subway cars. Using that letter would provoke a lot of snickering.
U. I don't know why it's being skipped. Anyone know?
X and Y. You can save 'em for the Second Avenue local and express, if they're ever built. When even more lines get built by, say, 2200, they'll have to bring back the double letter system...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Anybody want to bet by what year the subway will have all 26 lettered trains? We could do a little pool.
None of us will be around to collect...
We could put it in our wills.
Never. As long as I looks like 1 and O looks like 0 and Q, those letters will never be used.
Another option would be to use those symbols from the WingDing fonts: A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
I can hear the announcements now: "Attention all passengers, due to construction on the smiley-face line, please change at Times Square for the snowflake shuttle, or at Penn Station for the skull-and-crossbones train." :-)
Yo, this train is the bomb?
-Hank :)
You know, there was some controversy over the Wingding font. In the orignal version (and maybe present ones) if you typed NYC in captial letters, it would should a skull and crossbones, then the Star of David (Jewish sybolism), then a thumbs up symbol. That was though to have meant "Death to Jews is OK". There was talk of conspiracy and the usual nonsense against Microsoft. Seriously anyone who sits at their desk and types things in Wingdings fonts that come out to have some secret message REALLY needs to find something better to do with their lives.
Shawn.
I would interperate it as "NYC: Its full of Crime, Its full of Jews and Its full of prostitutes."
You're right. It does come out to what you described. I was unaware of this and there was no intention in anyway.
Anyone viewing this on a Mac? I wonder if it would show up the same.
NO! You have to switch to Greek leters. Add a little class to the subways. I have posted for download a basic greek font at http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/greekc.ttf You need to download and install the font to see the correct letters. You need to right click and save the link target as greekc.ttf then go to the Fonts part of your control pannel and install the font. Its really worh it.
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z a b c d e f g h i j k l n m o p q r s t u v w x y z
I can see a reason why there is no "U" train. Any time there would be a delay, a re-route, a stuck door, or a missed train, people would be inclined to say "F--- U!!!!!"
I'm probably wrong but IND numbering schemes used to go up to 17 or 18 (that was before my time) so 19 and on up to infinity have yet to be used either.
The IND never used numbers, only letters (A-H). The BMT used numbers (1-16); in the 1960s, the IND number system was extended to include the BMT lines (J-T, with the exception of O, P and S, although I believe that P may have been intended for the BMT Culver-Nassau line). In that system, the 'X' was reserved for special servies (such as the short-lived NX), and 'S' for specials (the Aqueduct Racetrack specials bore the 'S' designation). All shuttles were designated 'SS'.
The IRT never used either numbers or letters. The number system was introduced after WW II, when the lines were already city owned.
Another note on BMT line numbers -- in 1936, a new route was added, the 14th St - Fulton St line. However, a new number was not added to the head end signs for the new route. The cars on this line ran signed as route '13' (which was the route number assigned to the main Fulton St. line to Park Row).
-- Ed Sachs
I'd have to take X off the list in memory of the old NX train.
I'd have to take X off the list in memory of the old NX train.
True there is no U train. But the TA does UUUse the U for it's combination road/switching/yard crew jobs in the IRT.
Since they use the V for the same jobs in the IND/BMT, they'll have to come up with a new letter designation. Probably T or Y since they can't use X, as X is used for G.O. jobs.
What about the Greek Alphabet
omega psy delta or #, $ ** ! ? and other special characters.
Or how about Presidential lines . The Linclon , with his charactureazation from a penny on the sign, or Rudy!
avid
Just Don't ask for a Gore or Bush train. People would get confused and accidently wind up on the Pat Buchanan train.
Don't forget that you can now use K and H as well ...
The Subway Alphabet
Single-lettered lines that have been used in the subway since the IND started using letters.
ABCDEFG, H blank JK LMN blank blank. QRS, T blank V, W, blank, blank and Z.
I, O, P, U, X, and Y are the only letters that haven't been used as a subway line name. An interesting word, iopuxy (eye-oh-PUhX-ee). It isn't defined in any dictionary, but I can see it as a word comprising of all letters that will NOT be used in the New York subway. Here's my list of why.
I: Looks like 1.
O: Looks like a zero or a Q.
P: Many bathroom jokes can be formed from this line. Just look at any place that has a "P Street" (like Washington, DC) or Avenue P (like Brooklyn).
I almost died laughing as I was directing a friend of DC via Connecticut Avenue, and said, as we were winding through the streets of DC (I think we were on 15th NW when I said it), "Make a left on P." I was like that for eight minutes! We did make it to CT Avenue, and drove out of DC that way. I don't know what it was, but I just had this thought in my mind when I said it (I'm trying to hold back laughter as I type this because I'm in a computer lab at school, but I have this big smile on my face as I'm typing this.) and just started laughing uncontrollably! The following Sunday, someone who was in the jeep with me when I said that said "P Street." I laughed a little bit, but not as much as I did while in DC. There's something about P Street that makes me laugh.
U: Sounds like "you." Consider this dialogue:
Person 1: Take the U train
Person 2: The ME train! Since when was there a ME train?
Person 1: No, not the YOU train, the U train! Take it to Second Avene and transfer to the Y train.
Person 2: Why?
Person 1: Because--
Person 2: I didn't know there was a BECAUSE train? I thought he was in center field...
A brand-new "Who's on first?" routine.
X: Parents wouldn't let their kids ride this line because they'd think this line contains porn (an X-rated train, not an X train).
Y: sounds like "why." See U above for more info.
They could just switch the number and letter designations between the A and B division. The A division would have lettered lines and B would have numbered lines. That way, they could go on to infinity in the B division, since they have more lines than the A would ever have. 300 years from now someone can ride the 437892 train to work.
As usual, I headed from my apartment, in Forest Hills, to the YMCA at 33rd and Queens Blvd. I entered the subway at 67th Ave. and caught a G train to 74th/Roosevelt, to connect with a S/B 7. When I got upstairs, what did I discover? No local 7 to Manhattan. I had to go all the way back to Junction, via a local, to then catch an express to Woodside, which would then go local the rest of the way.
Did I see one worker on the tracks????????? Of course not. But it was 12 noon, so I have to assume that it was lunch time, and that everyone was taking a break. Seriously though. Why all the inconveniences, with no sign of actual work taking place?
I can't wait to see what is waiting for us this weekend.
Do you believe in any kind of god? Do you see one? No? Does it exist? Not by that logic.
-Hank
There's nothing scheduled for the E, G, R, or 7 trains, and the only diversion for the F is it's running on the A from W4 St to Jay St.
Yesterday, there was no local 7 between Junction and Woodside. You had to go back to Junction, and then express to Woodside. But as I watched through the front window, as a true train buff always does, there was not one visible worker on the tracks. Not even a flag or work train. But then again, it was about lunch time, so I am sure everyone was just eating at that moment.
Regardless of who was or wasn't on the tracks, it was a scheduled GO, of which there are none for this weekend. Also, I take back what I posted about the F; that's only late nights, weekdays only (which I suppose includes 12-5 AM Saturday), through next Friday.
After reading about an accident that occurred when a set of 5 R-142s were delivered and finding out in an earlier post that the cars had no handbrakes I think that it would be a good idea to equip the cars with handbrakes in addition to the emergency brake pull cords just in case of an emergency. This way the extra redundancy can help to reduce the chance of an accident.
BMTJeff
I would chock up the accident with the R142A's to neglegence. The parking brake has to be cut out during delivery. During normal operation the parking brake would not be cut out. From what I understand the parking brake is spring applied and requires air pressue to be released. The parking brake would be applied when the train is dumped or possibly when it loses power (not sure about that). This seems to me to be an enhanced feature over handbrake. As someone previously mentioned (forgive me, short memory), it's a possibility not to apply appropriate handbrakes, thus making them ineffective when the air has bled out after some time.
Either they simply forgot or didn't think to reapply the parking brake when they were done moving them. I'm sure they must have received some kind of training on handling the R142(A)'s. This was not the fault of the R142(A)'s in this case.
I'm not at all qualified to explain handbrakes versus parking brakes but I'm sure the designers were. There obviously must be a reason why the R142(A)'s don't have handbrakes. You just don't "forget" to include features like that. Maybe someone can find some documentation on the R142(A)'s. Hopefully that would shed light on to the choices of the designers.
Shawn.
As someone suggested, one less toy for children to play with. Also, a few less moving parts to be maintained.
It seems to me that the only downsides of the oarking brake are the need to periodically check the springs and the difficulty in moving a car that has no air.
Hate to break it to ya, but handbrakes will not stop a subway
car that is already moving, at least not at a rate that matters.
They can, however, prevent a wheel from turning once it has
stopped, sometimes causing the locked wheel to be dragged along,
get good and hot, start a few track fires, and maybe cause a
derailment. This is one of the reasons to go with parking brakes,
but again it's a case of turning the house upside-down instead
of re-hanging a picture frame. Especially with the on-board diags,
you could get pinpoint handbrake indication.
As for the emergency brake, on the 142s it is cleverly concealed in
a compartment and is in fact an emergency stop request switch.
There is some bit of logic interposed that is supposed to allow the
thing to cause an emergency brake pipe venting only when the
train is entering, stopped within or departing a station. I'd
like to get the tech details of exactly how that works.
One express (E) and 2 locals(V,R) Manhattan-bound trains stopping at Queens Plaza is no better than the current situation of 2 Express (E,F) and one local (R). Yes, finally, the useless "G" is gone, but it could have been sent into Manhattan under another 60th Street tunnel if one existed, rather than to Continental Ave. Sure, the new scenario will ease congestion at the 53rd Street/Lexington station a bit, but what about all of the mid-Queens (Maspeth, Woodside, Middle Village) residents that take buses and transfer at Queens Plaza for a Manhattan-bound subway? The current solution eases congestion at 53rd/Lex, but not at Queens Plaza, or for that matter at 74th St/Roosevelt, where many commuters take the local Triborough buses to transfer for a Manhattan-bound subway.
What is needed is another Manhattan-bound express train that stops at both Roosevelt Ave/74th St and Queens Plaza, then takes the N,R route down 60th Street and runs local down Broadway. How much time and $$$ to build a 3rd tunnel under 60th Street? - With this option,commuters could transfer to the 4,5,6 lines at 59th Street. Rerouting the "F" to the 63rd Street tunnel completely REMOVES ACCESS to the "6" train for "F" riders, that under the new plan, must transfer to an "E" or "R" at Roosevelt Ave. Maybe a new 60th Street express tunnel can be added as part of the LIRR east-side connection project? Any thoughts?
No room for it under 60th Street. Street too narrow. Can't put it under existing tunnels because of Lex express tracks. Have to rebuild the entire interlocking at west end of Queens Blvd Station to make room for a 7th track and at the north end of 57th Street Station to make room for a 5th track.
I don't think so.
You guys say build build build, where is the money going to come from? Not under the Bush Administration or from the Republican State Legistrature(sp) unless you raise fare to 5.00 a ride or more.
Well if the N.I.M.B.Y.s in THOSE neighborhoods had been forsighted they would not have Booed the proposals for reserecting the Rockaway Branch. Theeeennnn service could have gone through Maspeth, Woodside and Middle Village right to the upper level or the ramps at Roosevelt.
But Noooooooo, that proposal would have brought UNdesirable, trailer trash, and the Ebola Virus to those communities. Now you want to rip open some other neighborhoods for a special interest group.
Step back and look at the whole BIG picture. We are a City, a group of many villages.
avid
[Sure, the new scenario will ease congestion at the 53rd Street/Lexington station a bit, but what about all of the mid-Queens (Maspeth, Woodside, Middle Village) residents that take buses and transfer at Queens Plaza for a Manhattan-bound subway? ]
V would probably be emptyer than current F? Also you could rerout some buses to distribute passangers to use locals.
[What is needed is another Manhattan-bound express train that stops at both Roosevelt Ave/74th St and Queens Plaza, then takes the N,R route down 60th Street and runs local down Broadway. ]
There is no capacity left on QB exp tracks. If you need Broadway service there's R.
[Maybe a new 60th Street express tunnel can be added]
You already have 6 tracks connecting to 6 tracks with 2 of them (Astoria) not requiring the whole capacity. 2 more tracks connecting to QB bottleneck would be just a waste of money. Probably for the same money one could build 2 more tracks from Roosevelt Av.
Arti
If you went from 179th to Lex, too bad! Not everyone is gonna be happy. Take the E or R. Is transfering that bad???
The 63 St "T" track cutoff north of Queens Plaza wasn't the
ideal solution. We knew that. There were a bunch of alternative
plans for utilizing "the tunnel to no where"; this was the easiest
and cheapest. It may not be the best, but "at least it got done".
There has been a tremendous oversight here, both by the TA and the media. It is true that riders in Queens and Brooklyn will have to face changes. But since the Broadway line is no more than a few blocks away from 6th ave line stops in Midtown, the walk should not be too long for those riders.
It is those in Chinatown who suffer the most. I go there a few times a week to get food and stuff (real cheap!), and use Grand street all the time. This is a very busy station, one often has to fight there way through the crowds during rush hours and weekends.
This once depressed area of the lower East Side is now bustling, the "new" center of Chinatown of sorts. Food markets, music stores, and eateries have all sprung up near the Grand street station. But the bridge flip may erase many gains, and ruin people's livelihoods in this area.
The simplest advice by the TA would be "use Canal street". It's almost a 9 block walk from Grand to Canal, and Canal street is a virtual pedestrain traffic jam as it is. The station layout requires one to walk through the Nassau St line, then to the lower level where the bridge trains are. Canal street station is a pain to use, between the crowds, street peddlers (many of them aren't even chinese), and the smell I avoid the place.
The other option is to use the Bowery station, which is only two blocks away. But Nassau st service doesn't service midtown, only Brooklyn rush hours, and runs infrequently.
Delancey on the F would be the next closest station, but still a rather long walk through not the best of areas.
And buses are infrequent and irregular, especially in Chinatown.
the effects of the closure will be clear. A loss of business to merchants in the Grand/Bowery area. Some will probably close.
The crowding on Canal street will be in severe proportions. And adding the traffic to that, it will be an even more dangerous place for pedestrians.
Many have pointed out Canal street station is closer to "Chinatown". Perhaps it is closer to the old Chinatown many tourists visit.
But to Chinese, the center of their Chinatown is much further away.
Most chinese stores, from entertainment to food, are on Bowery street, Grand street and East Broadway. These are the areas bustling with chinese immigrants. These are the areas that the TA totally ignores in it's plan.
What would I propose to alleviate the situation? If we can't connect the Grand St. tracks to the south side, then bus lines should be rerouted and non-essential traffic in the area curtailed (no cars allowed on Grand street except for business purpose).
The V would terminate at Grand street, and a switch will be put in to turn trains. If a switch could not be put in, they would turn at the nearest crossover, before Bway-Lafeyette. A Grand st crossover should be put in though, it can't be that hard!!
There would be additional bus service on the M103, plus a new route that runs (with limited stops) from 14th street & Broadway, then to Bowery, then down Grand street to Grand &Broadway.
Bus service would also be increased on the M9 and M15.
And a new bus route from Dekalb avenue (w/free xfer) would run to Grand street.
I think the real travesty here is that the TA has completely ignored the needs of the chinese in Chinatown, because they are immigrants and don't have any advocates.
And unfortunately the media is out to lunch on how it all affects Chinatown as well. Equality is still a long way off in America.
[It's almost a 9 block walk from Grand to Canal]
9 really short blocks, about the same as 2 avenue blocks. Many of us have to walk that much every day to get to subway.
[It is those in Chinatown who suffer the most. I go there a few times a week to get food and stuff (real cheap!)]
I'm getting a feeling that this is YOU who suffers the most!
Arti
John, I feel like I have to post here to respond...
I am Chinese-American myself, even tho I am based in Boston, and almost everytime I go to Chinatown in NYC (and especially with my grandparents), we almost always walked from Centre (or even Lafayette) and Canal to as far as Mott (sometimes Elizabeth or even Bowery)...not even once did anybody in my family complain about it being too far...
and don't forget that some of the bustling shops on the new, revitalized Chinatown can be reached by the F/J/M/Z at Essex/Delancey, East Broadway or Bowery stations.
In fact, I sometimes reach Confucius Plaza on East Broadway, the back door way by walking from the 4/5/6 at Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall station...
There are so many stations surrounding Grand St which is within a reasonable walk from some major stations (Canal included)...or x-fer to M9/15/22/103.
I don't see what your whining is all about, and I don't even want to know...
Nick
Yes , the flip is a disturbing event. Its effects reach far and wide and close . We'll all just have to tuff it out for a while.
avid
The M15 is neither infrequent nor irregualr, with three minute headways throughout the day, and it stops three short blocks from Grand & Chrystie. I used to take the M15 to East Broadway from Second Avenue or Houston Street frequently. Plus, it's getting artics, which will increase capacity.
Someone coming from 14th Street would be far better off taking the F or V to the Shuttle rather than taking a slow, meandering, redundant, and wasteful bus route.
It has already been said that the installation of a switch would cost $20,000,000, which is not justifiable for a solution to a temporary problem.
I picked my job for the next six months yesterday and swa the list of booths which will temporarily close due to station renovation.I will only list the stations:
Prince, Eighth, 23rd and 28th on the N and R; Delancey/Essex J/M/Z/F; Utica 3/4.
Times Square will continue to see changes due to new building constructions and continuing station renovation.(One booth will close for 3 yearsd and another open 24 hours until the three years are up.)
Good news: No major booth closings- only three are closing : Two at Atlantic Ave Brooklyn BMT. ALso Fifth Avenue on the 7--the full-time booth will close for renovations. When the renovations are completed then the part-time booth there will close.
NYCT did have plans for mjaor cuts, but TWU combined with local politicians have saved our jobs!
Again today, CP Rail came down with no R142's in the consist. I'm starting to wonder if this is some kind of trend. Is is possible that the delivery plan have changed some how? Does anyone know if there's any R142's sitting in Oak Point or elsewhere?
I'm starting to think that NYCT has postponed any further delivery until the cars that are already on the property can be modified and put into service. I may just be a little too paranoid :)
Shawn.
Modified? You mean they are not delivered ready for service?
As far as I know... they are making modifications to every set of cars delivered. The modifications are based on the R142's testing cycle. I have no idea what it is that they have made modifications though.
Shawn.
Or maybe NYCT got scared when a couple of railfans showed up at Junius and snapped pictures of the delivery last Wednesday night???
I believe there has not been a delivery since then....
BMTman
Hehehe... maybe they're pissed that we figured out their secret delivery plans faster than it took them to plan them in the first place :)
Shawn.
Shawn, I think you might have something there....hehehe....:-)
BMTman
BTW, just how many sets have been delivered? I have yet to ride on one, mainly because I'm upstate in Utica?
when the cars are modified(why the hell they need modification?) are gone then more will be delivered. the yard is probably filled up with R-142's
That brings up some interesting questions.
1 - If the deliveries are being held up, how long can the plants produce cars before they get full and have to stop?. It appears to be just the opposite of JIT (just in time) deliveries to keep inventory small.
2 - If the are still producing cars, will they have so many to deliver that the TA can't get the cars tested fast enough when delivered?
Here is yet another proposal, which I have thought of based on the MTA's proposed service plan for mid-2001:
A, C, E, M, N, R: same service as now.
B, D, G, S: same as proposed service plan
Changes:
F: 71 St. Av. via 53rd St. and 6th Av. and Culver to Coney Island, local all the way, 17/7 (nights between 57th St.-6th Av. & CI, only).
Q diamond: Jamaica-179th via 63rd St. and Broadway and Brighton to Brighton Beach, express all the way, 17/5.
Q circle: Jamaica-179th via 63rd St. and Broadway and Brighton to Coney Island, local 179th to 71 St. Av., express 71 St. Av. to Canal St., local in Brooklyn, 17/7 (nights local in Queens and Brooklyn, express in Manhattan).
V: not necessary under this plan.
W: as proposed (Astoria-Broadway-West End Express) except that runs local in Manhattan and via tunnel from Queens AM, to Queens PM (this in order to present a free corridor to the Q from Queens Blvd. AM and to Queens Blvd. PM).
What do you guys think?
--Harry
for those who are interested in or who collect roll signs, there is a club on yahoo for you... it's a small club, but there are some knowledgable people there...
roll sign club
Let's see here...
Chinatown -- Even though it would be nice for say, the V, to run from 71/Continental (or 179) to Grand St instead of 2 Ave...
There are these alternates available...
F to Delancey, E Broadway
J/M to Bowery
J/M/N/R/Z/6 to Canal
4/5/6 to Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall stop
M103, M15, M9 and M22 buses
True, the N/R , 4/5 and F (and to a lesser extent J/M/Z) will be more crowded and slightly take longer, but all of these will come to or within 10 minutes walking distance of Grand/Chrystie, but 90-95% of the people should be able to make this walk, with the exceptions of those that insist on getting there without walking and some elderly people...
The likely bottlenecks of this are:
Canal Street
Pacific/Atlantic Complex
Delancey/Essex Streets
As for West 4 to transfer to A/C/E (or to other 6 Av stations), they could transfer at Atlantic/Pacific for the 2/3 and then transfer at Park Place for A/C/E, or Chambers/14 St to 1/9 for the nearest station to the 6 Av station, with the added benefits of having 18 St and 28 St stations and then walk from there...again, a max 10 minute walk on a good day.
For CPW, a straight 2/3 (and a cross-platform transfer to 1/9 if necessary) will get you to the stop closest to the CPW stop you need)
from Atlantic/Pacific...with the exception of those needing to get to 125 and north, which an A/D transfer at 59 is needed after the cross-platform transfer to 1/9 from 2/3 at Chambers/14/TSQ.
Overall, I can't see why all this bitching about "losing service," when there are other services available which are within a 5 to 10 minute walk from the other stations available....
For those who are complaining, it will very certainly be part of your daily routine for the next 5 years or so after 2001, so get used to it and stop whining...
Oh, a final comment, which I don't like to make, but I have to, those whiners are the ones that are probably also contributing to America's unhealthy lifestyle (especially obesity)...so just get off your train and walk those 5-10 minutes to where you are going...it will do you some good!
Nick
I think a system like bostons would prevent this type of accident with the young child.
With the emergency brake connect to the end door unlock, the brake must be enganed to open the door.
Again there are exceptions. Like the crew leaving it unlock. Maybe a device to prevent the train from taking power if its open.
The press finally discovered that this station will
be opened once the bridge flips sides.
Junked Stop's a Go for W Line
the question is once it has train running through it will it still be the coldest station in the system???
the question is once it has train running through it will it still be the coldest station in the system???
It always was one of the coldest in the system. You know, the leave the tunnel open to the bridge there a the east end of the platform, anything can blow in.
Elias
ARGGGGGGG!!
Yet another clueless reporter who refers to the W as a "new" line. It's not a "new" line, it's a replacement line for the B in Brooklyn.
And they also negelect that the good old fashioned Q line should be using this platform as well.
:-)Andrew
That's a major OOPS!
It was a very enjoyable day at Shoreline this past Saturday.
The 3/4 Ton Crew (BMTman, Lou from Brooklyn, Stef, Glen, Sparky & myself) basically ran the RxR. Our duties included running the kids & their parrents to & from Santa with a couple of Birthday charters too.
Lou got the better of the two, the one with Pizza.
What made it even more enjoyable was, first there weren't too many operators (not much standing around time), and second it was just us.
So we paired up on a car, took turns for lunch or bathroom breaks & changed pairs in the process. We were going to pick up some of the ties that we had replaced a few weeks ago (brought some cloths to get dirty in), but our Dispatcher, also Mr. MOW, had already done that.
Then at the end of the day, as dusk fell, we made a couple of member only runs with our head lights burning holes in the darkness.
Mr t__:^)
I'm just so mad right now at this. I just need to get things back together. Yet another delay...
9346<>
You don't backup your data on your computer or floppy? The only place you can fully trust to store files is your own disk.
While riding the L line on the "snake-turn" from Sutter to Atlantic Ave., I looked down and saw a film-crew beginning to set up their camera equipment on Van Sinderin at the corner of Pitkin (right at the turn).
It was bitter cold, but those guys must have been determinted!
Anyhow, whatever shot they were setting up will certainly include the Sneidiker part of the El structure as the background.
BMTman
Determinted?
Sounds like a cross between determined and demented.:-)
I know, slip of the finger on the keyboard. It happens to me, too.
This month's Railpace has an article in "The Keystoner" section about a virtually abandoned SEPTA "Newtown" line. (The writer chides SEPTA for neglecting the line while providing token budgetting for it's possible, but unlikely, rehab.) I couldn't gather from the article if this line was an extension of an existing line (R?) or a separate line altogether. Given that I have had occasion to ride only SEPTA's R3 and R5 lines, and that I mostly know their regional rail system from their map, where would this line be?
Sorry, also wanted to ask which pre-SEPTA railroad owned the line.
The Newtown Line ran from Newtown PA to Fox Chase where it connected with the Fox Chase line. The Reading RR only electrified to Fox Chase so Newtown service was provided RDC's. There was also a diamond crossing of the West Trenton Line. The extra cost RDC service and the crossing made the line unsustainable and so R8 service was turnkated at Fox Chase. There was an R8 shuttlebus, but I'm not sure if its still running.
On the same lines, why isn't there an R4?
Ok, there is an R4, the model display that SEPTA has at their headquaters this time of year is called the "R4", but was there ever a real R4?
Michalovic
the plan supposedly for these new lines is to reduce overcrowding on the subway system around the areas of Queens blvd. Lex and 51st along to 6 ave. the routes of these lines will not relieve anything. lexington ave. will stay crowded. eliminating the q train completely doesn't make any sense. the only way to reduce the crowding is to run the q train to 71'st continental and have it transfer into an express train at roosevelt ave. run along 63rd tunnel and into manhattan. this will increase more trains and reduce the crowded wait at the stations along the line. this v and w thing is not needed,but i ain't no expert.
Good thing you're not. The W is simply a replacement name for the Brooklyn/Broadway B train.
The V will hopefully reduce the amout of transfering passengers (the kind that hold doors) at express stops in Queens. With a Local train and an Express train both going to 6th Ave, and the additional trains on the corridor taking the place of the near-useless G train, Manhattan service (where 98% of the customers are going) will be more frequent.
-Hank
The V will be one more service from Queens to Manhattan. Maybe there are better routings, but having four services into Manhattan instead of three will make a big difference. (Hint: If your train is still crowded, ride the local.)
The W is not an attempt to improve service; it's simply a temporary replacement for the B in Brooklyn when the bridge is closed.
It seems like alot of folks are interested in transit extensions around town. Count me as one of them.
After reading a reply by Peter Rosa that was in reference to another message mentioning areas of the city needing more rail service - suggesting the Javits Center should be counted as a place lacking in but needing more access to rail transit - I think I strongly agree.
Think about the West Side rail yard for the LIRR. It goes within spitting distance of the Javits Center. Has the idea of extending the LIRR directly to the Javits Center (a few Hundred feet from the West Side rail yard) and instituting shuttle service between Penn Station and Javits via the West Side Rail yard ever been discussed here in the past?
Has there been any discussion about this in City planning or through the MTA? It seems to me this one is like picking low hanging fruit. OTOH - what I DON'T KNOW about extending that line a few hundred feet could fill volumes.
Your thoughts??
I like the idea. I'm not intimately familiar with the area, but perhaps an arrangement like the WTC's PATH and E services can be set up. It shouldn't cost that much, especially since the yard is so close.
I also support Mayor Guiliani's idea to extend the 7 to Javits. In fact, I'd like the 7 to serve a piece of 11th Av, and have the 1 train extend through a new tunnel, branching from Broadway to 11th Av and ending up at the Javits Center as well.
The 1 in which direction? It's already quite busy where it runs now.
To All:
This is advanced notice that some time in the next few days, maybe tonight, maybe over the weekend (basically, when I have time), I am going to be changing the software that drives SubTalk and BusTalk. The *Talks will be offline during the work which will probably take two hours or so.
The primary and only reason for this is: Performance Improvement.
Once in place the new version should be a lot faster--its CPU and memory requirements are a fraction of the current software. (Estimated 2/3rd less memory/cpu per click.) I essentially re-wrote the entire WebBBS server, removing some seriously flawed code (amount of code to thread the index, old way: around 100 lines, new way: 8 lines, with recursion), and replaced a lot of the backend storage with a msql database. It's the database that buys the biggest improvement.
There will be some loss of features in "Version 1". Namely, those are: Searching messages by date, keyword, or author. I anticipate putting these back in after the new code is on line.
There may also be some things that don't behave or look the same way as before. I'll tell you right now I don't want to hear it. I'm trying to preserve as much of the old functionality as before, even if it was computationally "expensive". The cookies will remain the same, the killfiles will remain the same, and the message display options (Threaded vs. Non threaded) will remain the same.
I have a quick question. What is the bottleneck on your end of the system? The software or the connection? When I wait am I waiting on the connection or the software to chug through? Also if I was only using a 56K would I notice a big improvement?
I won't complain as long as the basic fonts and colours and logos stay the same.
It would have been funny if the SubTalk logo featured a speeding Redbird and after the upgrade it turned into an R-142.
Finally I was wondering if you could give give some warning to the shutdown like as soon as you know when you will be working on it. I would hate to have finished typing a long post and have it go into the eather when SubTalk suddenly became unavailable.
> I won't complain as long as the basic fonts and
> colours and logos stay the same.
Yeah basic functionality isn't as important, I agree.
-Dave
Dave, I'm sure that Subtalk and www.nycsubway.org will keep on getting better. as it has up to now.
Dave, whatever you do, there will be people who will NEVER appreciate that you do this on your own time, and own nickel. On behalf of all the people who DO appreciate it, THANK YOU.
I'm happy as long as you don't make me take a shuttle to Grand St.!
The wall platform has been reopened with trains to Canarsie opening the doors on this platform.
Construction continues on bopth platforms but both are open.
Subwaybuff, you're alittle late with the news as this has been the case for nearly two weeks now.
BMTman
please, can anyone tell me what color these trains will have? i heard that the V train will obtain the G train's bright green color.
Since it is supposed to go down 6th Ave, I would asume it would be orange, like the F.
The W will go down Broadway, so it will be yellow.
:-)Andrew
V
W
wayne
It'll be a blue and white line
Does anyone know what the small NYCTA building underneath the Manhattan Bridge at Jay & York Sts., diagonally across from the York St. F entrance, is? A ventilation building for the tunnel? Garage? Something else?
Fan Plant (Ventilation) building
-Harry
www.zdeno.com
Thanks!!
has anyone else got an e-mail from a subway_crash@my-deja.com
that reads
sbjt: redbirds
the israel govt has announced plans to purchase the new york city transit
redbirds fore their jerusalem subway system. They say that by using these
cars they can have added assurance that the jews will be killed in collisions
thereby saving Arafat the bother
if not you might want to spam filter that address now
Yep, I got it today like several other people did...it was a bulk e-mail. Others on the list have received it too recently. -Nick
I wonder why someone would send bulk e-mail with a message like that? There does not seem to be anyway to make money off something like that.
That guy used to post on the message board and has since been kicked off. Clearly, he is lurking and sending us messages.
How does he get the addresses just by looking at the messages?
If you put in your e-mail address, anyone has access to your email address.
test
Its not for money, I think just revenge for getting kicked off the board...cuz he posted msgs like that! -Nick
Hey, its our old friend Subway Crash Means More Money for NYC Transit striking back from beyond the banned list. He's like the villian that keeps comming back for the season finale. (like Wo Phat for you Hawaii Five-0 fans). I really think a vinnian is essential for Message Board Unity even if it means some spams.
Th problem is he is infesting the nyc.transit and ne.transportation newsgroups and has moved on to more. does anyone have any ideas on how to stop him from doing this? also have his past post been removed from the Archives? If they arn't I think he may be useing them to get some of his junk that he post to the news groups. Does anyone know if he ever posted anythin like this (i did not come here back in July?
subj Another passenger killed
Saturday July 1 6:35 PM ET
Woman Killed by N.Y. Subway Train
NEW YORK (AP) - A 25-year-old woman fell off a subway platform early Saturday and was struck and killed by an
oncoming train, police said.
Witnesses reported seeing Carolyn Waldron reading a book and standing in the middle of the platform moments before she
fell
onto the tracks about 2 a.m., police spokesman Alan Krawitz said. She was struck by a train and declared dead at the
scene,
he said.
The incident is believed to be accidental. ``She was not pushed,'' Krawitz said.
A friend of the woman told police Waldron had spent the evening
watching movies at a nearby apartment and was returning to
her home, Krawitz said.
Do us a favor and don't help him by posting his messages here, I think you've done it twice now.
I was talking to a dispatcher chief for CSX's (was Conrail's) Albany division last Saturday, bending his ear about his job. (He was off-duty at a mutual family gathering.) During the course of the conversation, he mentioned one reason why Amtrak trains get delayed on freight RoWs: Federal regulations require crews to be relieved after a certain period of time (12 hours, I think). If there's a choice between throwing an Amtrak train on a siding to wait a bit and having to drum up another crew, the dispatchers will choose the former.
Has anyone been in the City Branch Tunnel? I've walked the length of it and approached the portal at the Art Museum end, but I didn't have a flashlight so I wasn't about to go in. I'd love to see it though.
The southern entrance is right behind the Rodin museum on the parkway. I checked it out during a class trip. There's an RoW from there to about 12th St. where the Reading freight line ran. The line used to serve the Inquirer (Motto: All the news that fits, we print) and the old location of the Baldwin Locomotive works. The problem w/ exploring the tunnel is that there are 2 southern entrances and 1 northern entrance. This is because there is a fork inside the tunnel and the western route is a very active CSX freight line.
The first test post.
The first test post.
The first test post.
The first test post. 2
The first test post. 22
Well, the new code is in place. I'll be keeping an eye on things... bug reports appreciated but you don't really need to tell me about what's missing because I took it out on purpose (maybe temporarily).
-Dave
For those of you familiar with forgotten-ny.com, I am interested in starting something similar for Philadelphia. Only problem is, I have neither a digital camera nor a scanner. (I took two rolls of pictures of the Wissahickon Valley and some rail lines along the Schuylkill in Center City earlier in the Fall, but I'm a horrible photographer, and somehow none of the pictures turned out). I do have a web-server, however. If anyone is interested in contributing, drop me an email.
Thanks,
Brian
bgoconnell@hotmail.com
Extending the L subway to 11th Av and then up to Javits, while the 1 subway branches off Broadway and goes to Javits, makes for an interesting possibility:
1. Change the L line to IRT standards (requires changing third rail type?)
2. Create a new subwayline running from 242 St-Bronx to Canarsie via the Javits Center, using IRT-type cars (will need platform extenders at stations or rebuilt platforms.) Add more cars to train to compensate for smaller cars, if platforms allow.
3. Release the BMT railcars for use other lines short of capacity.
Of course, even if anybody liked this plan I don't hold my breath to see it happen...
Thanks for the great upgrade. It looks and runs fine. We should all chip in to buy your ticket and/or lunch on the next field trip.
Can anyone tell me what they are doing on the 2 in the Bronx between 238th and 241st?
Just wanted to point out that this week, Subtalk is getting 25% more hits than any week in October or November. I suspect because of all the press about the W and V trains, but I don't know.
We're averaging 21,500 hits a day this week (to Subtalk and Bustalk). Average for October and November was 16,700 hits/day to the two talks.
I do plenty of walking each day, about one mile to be exact. Down Sea Cliff ave to the LIRR station, the Miracle Mile in Manhasset, down Schenk ave in Great Neck, through East Hills, and this was all in the past week!
Walking on Canal is different, because it is crowded and slow, and can take 15 to 20 minutes to walk from Grand sometime. Perhaps walking straight down Grand could save some time, but the traffic jam of people could move over there was well.
(I have tried to post this msg several times and getting an error)
Error is
Couldn't insert message header into database.
subject = Re: What's all the complaining about the Manny B closing?
seq = 174353
poster = John
As of today, 12/7/00, two R-142 trains could be found in operaiton on the 2. They are 6326-6335, and 6336-6345.
It would appear that 6326-6330 has been here for a while (I would estimate 8/2000). This can go on the delivery notes page.
R-142As 7276-80 and 7286-90 are on the property. 7286-90 was spotted outside of East 180th Street Barn this evening.
With that in mind, 6301-50, and 6411-20 are here on the property, making a total of 60 cars. The 142As, 7211-90 are also here, bringing the total to 80 cars. You have at least 140 cars on the property.
-Stef
have some of you been receiving crazy e mailers from this ex subtalker subway_crash_etc...( you remember ) he keeps on sending me e mail & lists all of the others he sends e mai to as well i have had to delete his repeated e mails as well
has this happened to some of you as also ??? thank you..
This morning it looked like E trains were wrong railing from Union Tpk to 71/cont. and F were staying on the local track (D1) from 75 Av to 71/Cont. anyone know why?
It appears that the new code has the message index display without regard to killfile settings.
Has anyone else noticed?
Let's take a moment out to remember those brave veterans who perished at Pearl Harbor and the six that died at Merrilon Avenue at the hands of a madman.
MAY THEY ALL REST IN PEACE !!
North Terminal
242 Street-Van
Cortlandt Pk, Bronx
Dyckman Street
Manhattan
137 St-Broadway
Manhattan
96 St-Broadway
Manhattan
148 St-Lenox
Terminal, Manhattan
E 241 St-White
Plains Road, Bronx
E 238 St-White
Plains Road, Bronx
Gun Hill Road-
White Plains Rd
Dyre Avenue
Bronx
E 180 Street
Bronx
Woodlawn-
Jerome Av, Bronx
Pelham Bay Park
Bronx
E 177 St-Parkchester
Bronx
138 St-3 Av
Bronx
149 Street-
Grand Concourse
125 St-Lex Av
Manhattan
59 St-Lexington Av
Manhattan
Grand Central
Manhattan
Main Street
Flushing, Queens
Willets Point-
Shea Stadium, Queens
111 Street-
Corona, Queens
Special
Not In Service
South Terminal
South Ferry
Manhattan
New Lots Avenue
Brooklyn
Flatbush Avenue
Brooklyn
Utica Avenue
Brooklyn
Atlantic Avenue
Brooklyn
Bowling Green
Manhattan
Brooklyn Bridge
Manhattan
Grand Central
Manhattan
125 St-Lex Av
Manhattan
135 Street-Lenox Av
Manhattan
E 180 Street
Bronx
96 St-Broadway
Manhattan
34 St-Penn
Sta, Manhattan
Times Square
Manhattan
Chambers Street
Manhattan
Special
Not In Service
Route
(1) 7 Av-Broadway Local [(5) to The Bronx | (2) to Brooklyn]
(2) 7 Avenue Express
(3) 7 Avenue Express [(2) to The Bronx | (5) to Brooklyn]
(4) Lexington Avenue Express
<4> Lexington Avenue Express †
(4) Lexington Avenue Local
(5) Lexington Avenue Express
<5> Lexington Avenue Express / Bronx Thru Express
(6) Lexington Av Local / Pelham Local
<6> Lexington Av Local / Pelham Express
(6) Pelham Local
(7) Flushing Local
<7> Flushing Express*
<7> <--Express - Local -->(7)
(7) <--Express - Local --><7>
(S) Shuttle
Special
Not In Service
Notes and Observations
1. Queensboro Plaza, a station used as a terminal on the (7) line when stations south of it are closed, is NOT on the signs.
2. For the Lenox Avenue Rehab, sitckers were placed on top of the route readings for the (1) and (3) lines, which are shown with the reading they cover.
3. 111th Street IS on the sign, despite claims from others on this board that it does not exist (See posts in the archives for a thread with "111 Street" in the title.) I have photographic proof that this particular reading does exist on my Transit Pictures 15 page. (Follow the link below to get to my site.)
*. This reading appears on signs that have the "Helvetica" font. It doesn't appear on signs that use the "Aksidenz" font.
†. This reading is omitted on roll signs that have the "Helvetica" font.
Coming soon to a new web site.
According to the Jersey Journal, Hudson County will receive $1.7 million for "transportation aid", none of which will go to transit.
story here.
Straphangers Campaign's Gene Russianoff has a column in the editorial section of today's Times that ascribes the defeat of the Transportation Infrastructure Bond Act to its difficult-to find position on the ballot.
what is the fastest train you've seen?
...Riders See Subway in a New Light Washington Post 12/7/2000
1. Finally got to ride the R142 on the #2 line this morning. The ride was ok, just like riding the R110A. However, it took 90 minutes to get from 238th St to Atlantic Ave, with no major delays! Unnaceptable.
2. The R32's that are now running on the 63rd. St. shuttle have signs with yellow "S"'s and the route "63rd St. Shuttle" in them. I've never seen these before. Are they equipped in other car types, or are these signs special?
3. R32 3655 on the E line has deplorable floor conditions. I hope it's due for floor replacement soon.
4. Rode an R68A (5100) on the N line. Haven't seen an R68A on this line since the B and Q lines swapped cars in 10/97.
5. Why are the tracks leading to the lower level of the City Hall BMT stop closed off completely?
All in all, a fun excursion.
In just four hours today, I covered, the New York Cross-Harbor Railroad, the New York and Atlantic Rilway, the LIRR, Amtrak, New Jersey Trnsit and the 7 train.
I started out with my bike by Bush terminal and rode down into the Brooklyn Army terminal. There, I found NYCH Alco S4 #11 pulling out of the NYA 65th st yard. The guard would not let me take pictures so I turned around to catch the locomotive when it exited the terminal. In between the two buildings, the Alco caught up with me and started to race my bike. We were going heaed-to-head at about 20 mph. The engineer, George McClellen seems to enjoy it. I then got photos of the train going down first ave. and into the Bush terminal yard.
I then went to the R train which took me to Queen Plaza.
There, I went over to Sunnyside where I found multitude of Amtrak and NJT trains. There were also a lot of MoW equipment. A few hundred yards away is the the LIRR bilevel coach prep/maintennce site. I took my bike up and around the streets to where the vehicular entrance to this site was. I caught some of the action of a diesel railcr mover mounded on steel wheels shifted the bilevel cars round.
From the same location, I caught a NYA MP15AC pull a 5-car train out. A few minutes later, a NYA train headed by backwards GP38 and a MP15AC came by the opposite direction.
It was time to go home, so I went up to the 7 train station at Queensboro Plaza and got there just in time to see the Subway Series special pull into the station.
I also used up a whole roll of film today.
-Dan
Everything I saw will be posted on nyrail.cjb.net when the site is up and running again. The site is also now part of trainweb.org. I will keep you all posted. ciao!
This is from an email I received. Anyone want to help him(her?)
I am working on a film set in a Luxemburg studio. We have to build a NY subway station, including an arriving train. We where happy to found so much information, fotos etc. What I didn't find are exact dimensions, for example the distance between the tracks and maybe more details about sizes of trains. Where can we find that??? Maybe someone can tell us.
Thanks and kind regards from Europe
Regine
Realname: Regine Freise
E-Mail: FearcomLux@aol.com
Location: at present Luxembourg
On the southern end of the up town end of the station... the wall is set back from the train it looks like there once was a switch there for a second track to join there. does anyone have any info on this?
Is the platform at the racetrack still in use? The station is no longer on the map at the MTA website. I remember a year or two ago they were using it for northbound trains only.
Here is a link to the article on MSNBC
Where did the C train r32s come from when the r30s got retired
I've noticed that there is no longer a NEW next to each new post that has been added since my previous log-on to Subtalk. Has this feature been completely eliminated with the new system?
I rode on a #2 R142 train today, but until it got close, I couldn't tell if the sign said 2 or 3. It just looked like a red lamp. Naturally, I knew the train was a 2 because there are no 3 R142 trains, but eventually there will be. I like the rollsigns of the R62s better. They are bigger and clearer.
-Dan
Today: A Family Affair
Indiana Harbor Belt has been under 51% ownership of Conrail and
predecessors dating back to the days of the Michigan Central. As the New York Central assumed full control of MC, so followed the IHB going through Penn Central and into Conrail. Today, Conrail's 51% ownership of the IHB has been split up evenly between CSX and NS, with CSX the "senior" partner. NS has right of refusal on what CSX can do, and has required the IHB Dispatchers to remain localized and cannot be moved to some far off location like Jacksonville.
The other 49% is owned by CP Rail through the Soo Line and Milwaukee Road.
Through the years, the Harbor, Conrail and its predecessors had always
maintained a close family bond. This bond lasted well into Conrail, up into 1990. It was then that Conrail sought the lowest price way to forward cars through Chicago Terminal. All of the inbound and outbound Conrail trains that used to shine the rails of the IHB and Blue Island Yard were diverted to the Belt Railway of Chicago, another terminal line of which Conrail had a stake. The family ties
had been cut, although not completely severed. Blue Island Yard, long a joint agency with IHB and Conrail, lost its joint agency status at the same time. The only trains that normally operated in and out of Blue Island became a single ELIH/IHEL (Elkhart-IHB Blue Island) pair. This reroute of traffic amounted to several hundred cars per day away from the IHB and to the BRC.
A couple of interesting notes about the Conrail/IHB association; at the time of Conrail's formation, Conrail assumed all of IHB switching duties around Burns Harbor. The IHB had a route, the Miller Branch, that used to go to Burns Harbor and at one time, beyond it as far east as Dune Acres. Eventually, as there was no longer a reason for the IHB to go even as far Burns Harbor, they retrenched the Miller Branch. It is still in service for about 2.2 miles east of Ivanhoe to the old Budd Plant in Gary, where several industries have located and begun operations that require the use of rail service. There are another 2.7 miles of the Miller Branch still intact beyond there, but while I was still at the Harbor, the only thing it was ever used for was to store cars. The old overhead where it crossed the Chicago Line east of CP 497 is still intact and there is some rail on it, but it has long since been removed from service.
The other note is that as part of the Conrail formation, IHB was granted trackage rights on Conrail from CP 502 to CP 482 in Porter, IN. They never put these trackage rights to use as Conrail was handling all the business at Burns Harbor and the Port of Indiana for IHB. Still part of that family affair.
IHB management was then saddled with the task of replacing the lost revenue. They found the unused trackage rights on Conrail and decided to use them to pursue the Burns Harbor and Port of Indiana business. They began negotiating with the businesses there and worked on securing contracts. It was announced the intent of IHB to begin exercising trackage rights on Conrail's Chicago Line between CP 502 (Indiana Harbor) and Burns Harbor Yard. Only one fly in the ointment here, Conrail itself.
Conrail was contending that being as the IHB had not ever exercised their trackage rights in the past 16 years, they were no longer valid. For those of you unfamiliar with the trackage rights concept, they very basically work as follows; the host railroad, in this case Conrail, allows another carrier, in this case the Harbor, to operate their own trains with their own crews on its rails for a fee, usually a charge per car. The guest or tenant railroad as part of the
trackage rights deal, normally has to agree to pay for all clean-up and repairs from derailments caused while their trains were operating and involved in such an event. Even if it was not the fault of their train or crew. What this means is suppose a Conrail trains runs a stop signal and plows into an IHB trackage rights train and everything piles up all over the place. IHB gets to pay for
all the clean-up charges, including the rebuilding of track and the fees charged by the rerailing guys like Hulcher or RJ Corman. A tough one to swallow, but in most cases, standard under trackage rights deals. I'm not certain if IHB has this agreement in their trackage rights deal with Conrail or not, but I would be surprised if they don't.
I was never able to learn what the trackage rights charges were while an IHB employee. Nobody was willing to tell me whenever I inquired. I was told "it was a secret." I guess maybe they knew that someday I would be writing a column like this and bashing their management. As a couple of ideas of trackage rights fees, Norfolk Southern pays $100 per car to operate the one hundred miles on the Illinois Central between 95th St in Chicago and Gibson City, IL. That is $1 per car, per mile. They also had to pay for improvements to the line as well. This included undercutting the overhead on track 4 at Kensington and also the overhead under Court Street in Kankakee. They also paid to have interlockings installed at 95th Street, Milepost 15.5 (also called Wildwood) and at Gibson City, IL. What a company will tolerate to rip out its own railroad.
The Chicago Centra,l when spun off from ICG in 1985, agreed to pay $125 per car for coal trains they operated on the 41 miles of the former GM&O between Bridgeport and the Plaines Generating Plant in Joliet. This was for up to 15,000 cars per year. For any car above that figure, the cost climbed to $130 per car. PT Barnum was correct in his assertion that one was born every minute.
The IHB trackage rights case went to court and the judge decreed that the IHB had never vacated their trackage rights on Conrail, and therefore, they were valid and in effect. There were also charges of anti trust involved, but I cannot recall the details. This ruling allowed IHB the opportunity to greatly expand their business base. Trackage rights are just like operating and abandoning your
own railroad. If you wish to abandon your trackage rights, a petition of abandonment must be filed with the Surface Transportation Board and the abandonment has to be approved. A rail carrier may opt to discontinue using them without any application, but they have to file to abandon them. The Soo Line never abandoned their trackage rights on Conrail's Danville Secondary, even though Conrail abandoned the line itself. Now, NS has since purchased this line with the intent of putting it back into service. Someday, the Soo Line could conceivably
be operating across the Danville Secondary again.
As the guest railroad, you are also subject to the moods and attitudes of the host railroad. NS has discovered this from the IC. There are many days that NS probably wishes they had the Forrest District back. Their trains get screwed nine ways from Sunday more often than not. Any trackage rights railroad will tell you that fact. The Soo Line also gets treated like the bastard red headed step child
by CSX and UP between Dolton Jct, IL and Spring Hill, IN , and CSX between Bedford and New Albany, IN. The IHB was and is, no exception. And that is what will are going to study today.
When I joined the IHB in September 1993, they had already begun using their Conrail trackage rights. If I recall correctly, they had begun operations over the Chicago Line in April of that year. Trains were not very big yet, only 10-20 cars on some days, and the business levels were also not consistent, but starting to grow. Still, they made the run to Burns Harbor and the Port six days a week. Business was primarily interchange traffic with Conrail at their Burns Harbor
Yard for business to and from Bethlehem Steel and neighboring Midwest Steel. They also had some industry work in the Port of Indiana which sits directly north of the yard and just west of Bethlehem Steel's gigantic Burns Harbor Works. I made my first run on Conrail in October that year getting qualified for the run. My Engineer trainer was Bruce Campbell, a good guy and collector of switchkeys. Bruce gave me all kinds of information and facts about the line and
the run. I was issued a special supplement to my CORA (Chicago Rules
Advisory Committee) Guide. It was a section for IHB employees operating on the Chicago Line between CP 502 and CP 482. It had a track diagram of the entire route and a map of Burns Harbor Yard. Also included were the special instructions that included speed limits, restrictions and other necessary information. A certain collector's item.
We did the run out, the interchange with Conrail at Burns, the Port work, pulled our outbound cars from Burns and were ready to head home to Michigan Avenue Yard in East Chicago, IN. We had a few "file" cars in our train. These are dimensional loads; loads that are either excessive height, width or length. Before these cars can move, a file containing all the dimension measurements, and any speed or handling restrictions is sent out in advance. This gives everybody advance warning that they will be coming. The Conductor and Engineer also
get a copy of this file when they get the paperwork. Everybody is notified when there is a file car, including the Train Dispatcher.
The file cars we had were in excess of 11 feet wide. At the time we were ready to leave, it was, as I have always liked to call it, "TV time." The Conrail intermodal trains were known as "TrailVan" or "TV" trains. They had symbols like TV-11 or TV-22. They were legendary in modern railroading for their on time performance. Being that the wide loads would cause problems in getting trains past us, we got held in the yard at Wilson Road, located at the west end of Burns Harbor
Yard, for hours. Bruce told me this is very common whne handling file cars. We eventually got turned loose, but when we were coming into Gary, Chicago West called and instructed us to hold at the "wide spot", and to make sure the wide loads were spotted within the wide spot. This is an area adjacent to the old passenger depot here at milepost 496. The track centers were much further apart than normal as there was once a passenger platform between the rails here. We did so and were given permission to proceed west again after we met an eastbound van train. We barely made it back to the Avenue before we
outlawed on the hours of service.
As time went by during my career at the Harbor, I worked the Burns Harbor jobs many times. I enoyed running on the very well maintained high speed iron that made up Conrail's Chicago Line. It was also the only place we could operate at any appreciable speeds. (The old road man coming out in me again). They were also big money making assignments as well. That didn't hurt the cause either. During my last few months as an IHB employee, I worked the night Burns
Harbor assignment regularly. By this time, business had grown to the point that two jobs per day were necessary. The grand scheme was as follows; the daylight Burns Harbor job would go on duty at the Avenue at about 1159 daily. The plan called for them to get their train together and go east to Burns, deliver the Conrails and
then head on down into the Port of Indiana and begin performing the required industry work there.
The night job was on duty at 2300 hours and was to be cabbed out to the Port to relieve the daylight job who was to take our cab back to the Avenue and tie up. We were to finish the industry switching, go back into Burns Harbor Yard and pull the outbound Conrail interchange. Then we were scheduled to make the run back to the Avenue and set out the Gibson cars there, then head over to
Calumet City Yard where we were to set out the Blue Island business and return lite engines to the Avenue and tie up. A grand plan indeed. I can count on one hand how many times this actually worked in the two and a half months I was on the job.
Here's what routinely happened; the daylight job would go on duty at their normal 1159. They would get jerked around at Michigan Avenue Yard for hours. That was if they weren't coming out to the Port and relieving us there first. Most often, they were switching up their own train. They would get blocked as the Avenue is not designed to have numerous jobs switching at one time. It was basically an industry support yard. The IHB was also using it to classify
some of their business and some Conrail business. Another plan by great leadership falling right into place. Many times, one of the mains here would also be blocked with either a Conrail WDGI-3 (this is the Inland Steel-INTeck train), or an empty coal train out of Inland awaiting a CSX crew to come and pull it. Smooth, really smooth.
There were days the daylight Burns job never even got out of the yard. We would take the train from the Avenue to Burns and the Port, and later the following morning, get relieved there by the daylight job getting their own train back that day. This, or we would recrew them on Conrail while they were still enroute to Burns Harbor. This is where it really got fun.
One evening in October 1996, Conductor Dave Ramirez and myself report for work at our usual 2300 time. We are told we would be cabbed out to relieve the daylight crew. We were instructed to talk to Hick Tower to find out exactly where they were and meet them there. Dave called Hick, got the Operator there to fax over our Conrail daily bulletin orders and give our bid (mark up) with Chicago
West. Hick tells Dave that the train is still sitting at CP 501 waiting to go east. We inform the Yardmaster who is not pleased with this revelation. Into the Cimmaron we load up our stuff and head to Buffington Harbor. CP 501 sits adjacent to the two casinos in the Buffington Harbor region of Gary. At CP 501 the four main tracks from CP 502 to here end and become two tracks. There is also a connection here to the Fort Wayne Line (downgraded to secondary status
at this point in time) and a connection to CSX's B&OCT.
We arrive there and talk to the crew of the daylight train. They tell us they have been sitting there for over four hours already. They depart and I contact Chicago West and tell him we are the fresh new crew, and ready to proceed. He informs us that Burns Harbor cannot handle us at this time and we are to remain right there at 501. Being that I was looking at a stop signal, I guess I really didn't have
a great deal of options available to me. So we sat. We read, watched lots of trains go by, BS'd about various topics, observed people going to and from the casinos, and even witnessed an automobile accident. This was an adventure into itself.
Some guy backed his pick up truck on top of the hood of the car behind him and got stuck. He was rocking his truck back and forth trying to break it loose. We watched for a minute or two and decided to contact the police. We were normally issued a cell phone for all of the Burns Harbor jobs. I called Gary's finest and the adventure began. I explain to the police dispatcher where we were and what
we were presently witnessing. He acted as if he didn't believe me. I explained it all again and even gave him a discription of the truck and the car it was stuck on. We were a little too far away to get plate numbers, but I gave him the aisle number where they were situated.
There are security vehicles driving around the parking lots here all the time, but none were coming into this section. We spotted a few of them nearby but could not get their attention with the light from Dave's switch lamp. They were totally oblivious to the light shining in their eyes. Some security force, eh? After about 15 minutes since we first called the Gary police, we called them again. The guy
told me they had someone enroute. I made the comment that if this was
somebody getting beat-up, they would be dead before the law arrived. He didn't seem too pleased with that comment, but so what?
After about another five minutes, the guy finally gets his truck free and takes off. About that time, here comes the PD. He actually passed the truck involved in this episode. He drives along the fence line we get his attention. He pulls up to us and we explain what happened. I also mentioned that he passed they guy as he was fleeing the scene. We point out the white Honda that was involved. He drives over to it, takes a quick look without ever getting out of the squad car, drives back and proclaims that there is no damage to the car we pointed out. I told him that maybe he should get out of his car and look as it is hard to see in the dark while sitting down in his own vehicle. Judging from the size of the guy, that wasn't going to happen. He was rather overweight. If I was a criminal and he was chasing me, I
would never have to worry about him catching me. He would have taken about three or four steps and had a heart attack and dropped dead right there. But I digress.
After attempting to be good Samaritans and citizens, we get back on the train, still on hold. A little while later, the phone rings and it is the Avenue Yardmaster. He wants to know how we are and where we are at. I tell him that "we are just fine and thank you for asking." He laughs and asks again where we were and I respond "In the engine." I finally told him that we were at CP 501. He is all excited. He says he's "amazed we got the work done so fast and are already on
the way back." To which I respond, "Easy big fella, we are not on the way back yet, we are still waiting to go east. Burns Harbor still cannot handle us." He begins a tirade of really bad words, the kind that I won't use here as this is a family forum. But yes, I have used them on more than one occasion myself, so I did know what they all meant.
Finally, after sitting here for over six hours, Chicago West calls and tells us that we are finally going to get turned loose after the next van train goes east. Yee ha! We are well over seven hours old before we even turned a revenue wheel, but off to the races we go.
We zoom out to Burns nonstop and learn that he still cannot handle us, but will squeeze us in to get us clear of the mains. We head in at CP487 and pull the train in far enough to clear the signal. And then we sat some more. We finally get all the way into the yard and make our delivery. After some jerking around, we run around the rest of our train and head down into the Port to attempt to begin working there. We got very little accomplished as we were running very low
on time. After several calls to the Avenue Yard and the Back Room, we get our transportation arranged to bring us home when we expired. At 1100 when we did pass away, no ride had shown. It finally arrived around 1130 and we headed home.
The following night when we returned to work, there was the outbound train for this date still sitting in the yard. The daylight job had not made it back to the Avenue until well after 1600 and only managed to get their outbound train switched up. They had about an hour and half to work and Chicago West wouldn't take them even though they knew we would be there to promptly recrew them.
Conrail routinely came up with all kinds of outlandish maneuvers to us in order to keep us out of their hair. We once made it as far east as CP 497 in Gary when we were told we would watch "at least three eastbounds and a westbound before we would move." They all past and we still sat. Then, they had us pull east of the plant crossing over from track 2 to track 1, shoved us back west of 497 on track 1
to clear and watch another small parade of TV trains go past before finally letting us go east. Another time, the pulled us east of CP 491 at Millers and shoved us back into the siding there to watch a large parade on both tracks. This was due to the fact that Burns Harbor yet again, could not handle us.
It never ceased to amaze me how long it would take us to cover the seventeen miles between CP 502 and CP487. Then other times, we would zoom right across the railroad. Although that didn't happen very often.
And so it goes.
Watch for Part 2 of A Family Affair coming soon on a computer screen near you.
Tuch
SOURCE: NYCT web site
From 10pm Friday 12/15/00 till 5am Monday 12/18/00,ttrains will skip this station in both directions. Shuttle bus is available at these stations:
Broadway Jct and Livonia . The bus will not stop at Atlantic Avenue.
When I get more info I will post.
many subtalkers like the varied color bullets of the roll signs. Would this idea work:
Use white LEDs or similar and use a colored film/filter in red, blue, green, purple, etc. to change it to the proper color. Of course, it would be motorized
HOWDY FELLOW TRAIN FOLK,
I AM NEW TO THIS WEBSITE AND I MUST SAY ITS VERY VERY VERY NICE. I REALLY LIKE THE TRAIN PICS THEY MAKE ME FEEL ALL WARM AND FUZZY INSIDE. IM A BIG FAN OF TRAINS I REALLY LOVE THE 7 THE BEST CAUSE OF THE COLOR ,THOS ARE MY WORLDS FAIR REDBIRDS...YEEEEEEEHAAAAA.
I HOPE YOU ALL LIKE ME AND I LOOK FORWARD TO BEING YOUR FRIEND
SEE YOU ON THE SUBWAY,
SubwayTom
Can you stand another story about death by rail? How about 2 of them. The first was yesterday in bayport when a gentleman decided to end it all in front of a speeding LIRR train. He succeeded! The second was this morning at 8:01 AM when another gentleman met his maker under the wheels of a #4 train at Mosholu Pkwy. One report I read had the playful EMS people reassembling the body on the floor of the car. Actually, I think they have to account for all parts. If it weren't for the fact that these are human beings ....................
I recieved my notice to go to 1250 Broadway for my pre employment
interview.Does anybody know what I should expect?How long does it take? Will any other subtalkers be there?
Thanks,Rob
I was horrified to hear of the child who was killed on the subway this week. My heart goes out to his family.
But once again, I have heard the TA being ridiculed. While the TA is by no means perfect, we must ask why his mother didn't prevent this tragedy. A small child should be held close and kept in sight at all times.
The TA is not responsible here. Parents must learn that children are not objects. They come with responsibility.
Let's just hope the TA doesn't get carried away and lock all the doors in between cars.
Train Buff Headquarters
I was looking through the photos of the IRT book and one titled, "Four-track Subway Showing Crossover South of 18th Street Station" caught my eye. I checked out the track maps and it says that's where the Union square wreck was. Is this the same crossover? In the photo, it doesn't appear to be a diamond crossover like the track map shows, nor does it look like it crossed over to the right side track. The tunnel seems to widen to make room for another track, yet the track map doesn't show any of this. What's the deal here?
Photo in question
On the New Lots bound track at Utica, the provision for the turnoff to Utica Ave is getting cinderblock. In fact it looks like its going to be some housing facility over there. I will go over to Utica and do a full investigation as that station is getting a renovation.
Train#1935Mike
Just curious if anyone here knew that will be a new book about the Dual Contracts coming out in January : TUNNELING TO THE FUTURE: THE STORY OF THE GREAT SUBWAY EXPANSION THAT SAVED NEW YORK? It is written by a chap named Peter Derrick...Happened to see it on Amazon this evening...It runs almost 400 pages, so I expect that it is NOT just a picture book....
I saw a story on the news last night about Queens plaza. Apparently late at night, the area around E/F/G/R and N/7 stations, is quite a dangerous place, with people selling drugs and prostitution.
But there's more, the corrections department releases prisoners, some mentally ill, right onto the streets and gives them a $3 Metrocard to ride the subways.
Stay away from that area late at night, it's probably just as dangerous or worse than the walk from the L to the 3 which was talked about here.
Okay, for some reason when I upgraded my browser it decided to start clearing the message area after I click back after posting or previewing. Any way around this new "feature"? I stopped putting the picture in my posts for fear of if I screw up I'll have to retype the message.
Hey, Dave Pirmann, why do there appear to be fewer messages on the message board than there used to be? There used to be about 5,000 messages displayed at a time, going back about a month. Now, I only see about 4,000 messages. Did you change the way messages are displayed?
- Lyle Goldman
Had a great 7 express ride to Flushing this evening. Had the World Series train, it really looks great with the blue front, I wish they could keep it that way for a while.
The front window was new and unscratched and a pleasure to look out of.
"New" is now appearing in front of new posts, sitting here in front of my computer. As many folks have said, once again, this site continues to be a great job by David Pirmann. Thanks!
-cordially, turnstiles
Why do they call them storm doors?
Marty.
Does anybody know if the #2 IRT line at Water Street and Old Slip was deep tunneled or constructed via cut-and-cover? Thanks.
Does anyone think it would be useful if the Nassau line was still connected to the Manhattan Bridge? 6th Av rrains could be routed through Chrystie street on to the Nassau line. Reverse at Chambers and then over th Manhattan Bridge. Would that have helped any of the problems with all the proposed plans and such. Just an idea.
Shawn.
For all those interested in this trip: it will be happenning this Sunday at 11:30 a.m. at the 36th Street fare control area.
See 'Upcoming Events' for full details.
The weather will be with us (40ish), so dress accordingly.
Hope to see you there!
BMTman
I wasn't able to watch for a delivery today. Did anyone see any? It was a hard choice to make, the significant other versus the R142's :) I had a Celebrity Deathmatch like vision of the whole thing :) If anyone spots any new ones let me know.
Shawn.
I am about to be hired for NYCTA motorman position and wondered what the promotional possibilities are. What kind of exams commonly come up? Are they promotional or open? How often does one see jobs up for bid? Are bids only in the motorman category?
Any info on working conditions, such as: would I have to spend a long time on an extra list, with horrible days off?
Thanks for any advice.
We spoke before the election about who would be worse for transit. The worst case scenario has occurred. The Republicans now control everything, and transit is not a big deal in their states. They'll either try to cut it, or redirect their way. As for Hillary, she's spoken about her priorities, and transportation isn't one of them. It's something she can give up to get something else -- more health care spending.
Looks bad, very bad.
Does anyone know how the conversion to B-division-style signaling is progressing on the #2/5 in the Bronx? Last I'd heard, some contrsuction had started but I've heard nothing since. I was hoping to have made it up there today, but I'm a little too under-the-weather to do much of anything for the next few days.
Thanks in advance.
PJ Dougherty
This weekend, trains will be single tracked from National Airport to Braddock Road. Why couldn't Metro have all yellow line trains terminate at National Airport and operate a shuttle from Braddock Road to Huntington? The other possible scenario is have the blue line terminate at National Airport and have the shuttle from Braddock Road to Franconia-Springfield but I think the Franconia-Springfield branch is more heavily used, thus having shuttle trains doesn't work.
FAQ:
Where do trains turn around at National Airport?
The center track. It was used to turn around trains from 1997 until 1991. There is no diamond crossover at National Airport.
Why don't shuttles turn around at King Street?
No crossover. Trians could turn around north of Braddock Road. There is a diamond crossover allowing this north of the station.
Now, any questions/comments about this idea?
I have been away for mthe brighton line for a bit and while coming from school i was took the N to Coney Island trnasfered to the D then switched to the Q. as usual the Q blew past the D until we hit the hill after Avenue H the train just slowed down. why? i thought perhaps there was track work going on so i idimissed that to being only a one time deal. well every day afterward the same thing and there was no construction was going on. so what gives Why is the ta slowing down the d and q trains like that i takes them 2 mintutes to enter the and stop at newkirk completly ( it med this a couple of times) so why do this in the first place especially during the rush hours?? thank you
Friends;
I have been away with only sporadic postings lately; for that I apologize. I hope to make some small amends with this one.
Night time flagging work is never easy but when we do it out on the elevated structure a new dimension is added. Every step is already a danger but now it's harder to see it as well. The work being performed that I am flagging for is on the BMT's Eastern division is station rehabilitation. Comprehensive restructuring of platforms, canopies, stairways and electrical appointments. Chauncey, Gates, Lorimer, Etc. I am sure many of you have seen the stations as trains bypass them, so I won't bore you with details you likely know.
The unique thing I see here is the time of the work. It's unusual for the Transit Authority to do this type of outdoor work at night. Hammering, gernerators, cranes all contribute to the local noise pollution. To make matters worse we have to set up caution lamps to slow motormen down and that requires them to sound their horns. At 3 AM. The people who live alongside the line haven't been saying anything to us but I just know they couldn't be happy to hear this.
The whole of the station I have been working at(Gates)is a mess. The J1 platform has had almost it's entire edge replaced and now the stairways are going in. Last night a crane was hanging the columns to support the platform's rear edge wall. Steel workers were bolting the canopy supports and welders attaching handrails and steps to the stairways.
Working in the subfreezing weather, I have great admiration for their work. I myself have taken to wearing several layers of clothing under a heavy parka. Even then I descend every so often to the old, closed mezzanine level at the South(East)end of the station. There in the electrical distribution room (now you know what EDR stands for) the 600 volt heaters do a great job of fighting away the cold. The space has been gutted and cleared and exists now only as an area for the electrical rooms.
I find it odd that that end is the actual Gates Avenue end. The end of the station that's open is at another street altogether and yet the station retains the Gates Avenue name. I also know many of the other stations along the line feature similar oddities.
I noticed last night when I walked out along the structure to retrieve my caution lamps that Lexington Avenue is a mere 800 or so feet from Gates Avenue station. I'm sure many of us remember there used to be another of the BRT's old El lines that had a junction here. I looked and looked but there appears to be almost no evidence of it's past existence. I did find a torched away bracket where steel from one line met the other but it would have been easy to pass and without prior knowledge of the line's existance you would have never known.
Happy Holidays!
The Transit Professional
Believe it or not, I actually saw my favorite rolling lemon prominently displayed in a clothing commercial today. The commercial was mostly filmed in the interior, so the slanted door pockets and porthole front window was a dead giveway. They did a complicated dance number inside the car, so I'm suprised they chose this particular car to do it in (it becomes obvious at the end that it was filmed at the transit museum). Those foward facing seats give less room to move.
Anyway it's nice to see my favorite cars get some recognition, even if 99.9 percent of the people who see the commercial won't know it.
A hip-hop clothing designer called "Rat Race Designs" has a line of t-shirts called "BMT Lines," with BMT standing for "Bomb Mass Transit." They sell one design with a B, D, F, M, N, or R bullet. Personally, I find it disgusting that not only do they advocate vandalism, but they use MTA logos to do so. Their website is www.ratracedesign.com. I came across these guys looking for subway-related items on e-Bay; their shirt is under the heading "BMT Line NYC Subway Train Tee GRAFFITI Skater." On the bright side, they also produce clothing for some bands, one of which is called R22.
Dave, I don't think my SubTalk page is auto-refreshing anymore. Is this a bug or has it been temprarily removed?
There was an earlier post explaining how the TA will never use I or O because they look like 1 and Q. Well then why are they using the V train? When I see V train I read it as the 5 train. Remember Pig's handle Eugenus V. Train? He was refering to the 5 train there as well. The TA should respect those who are fimilliar w/ Roman Numerals and avoid this kind of confusion.
"Rocky Vee, that was the 5th one!"
Hi,
Does anyone know why the 4, 5, and 6 were down tonight? The busses were *packed*.
Thanks,
Chris.
Greetings,
Lately I have been very busy with school and haven't updated my website. I got a new digital camera tonight and decided to make an update to my website that highlights my collection of NYCT "stuff". It's hard to explain... just check it out at www.zdeno.com and click on "My Collection".
I also redid all of the images (853 of them!) during the past few weeks so they look sharper and have a better overall quality. Please take a look and let me know what you think. I plan on taking a trip tomorrow (does anyone want to join? - I was thinking about the Rockaways if there isn't a G.O..) to play with the new camera so you can expect another update on Monday. (This will include Doug's waterfront tour as well). The New camera takes images twice the size of the ones currently on the website and also has a zoom so you can expect image quality to be greatly improved on all future updates.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Passed northbound towards East 180th Street at 10PM with the usual assortment of SBK Locos and Number 73 to round things out!!!
-Stef
While working the C this morning going northbound, I noticed that we were going unusually slow moving into Canal Street. I know that there are timers going into this station, but we were going really slow. I opened my cab window and peeked out only to see a bright, lunar-white light shining at me. They turned on the wheel detector in the station!
With the slow speed limit of the detector (15mph or less) entering and leaving the station, especially going over the switch, it added 3 minutes to the travel time. And going southbound was the same way! What was wrong with leaving the timers? Does anybody know?
How long should it take to get from Forest Hills to Coney Island tomorrow(Sat)on the F train???
I am allowing myself 21/2 hours. Sound realistic?
Finally posted new video captures of Chicago's "L"/ Subway including last month's historic car move preparing for Dec. 9 Skokie Shops Open House. Questions gladly solicited.
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
David Harrison
I realized this a few days ago, but forgot to post about it. The R-142 storm doors are designed to spread apart when opened. When one is pulled in one direction, the other will move in the opposite direction. However, if the train were to suddenly jar to one side, both doors would have the same force exerted on them in the same direction, and that combined with the thing that makes them close automatically will keep the doors shut. Even with the door latches not catching (which happens somewhat often on the 142) I never once saw the doors swing open.
Watch, the Daily News will suddenly demand R-142 style doors be retrofitted into all trains...
What happened to messages 151000 to 169998?
On a southbound number two train today, I observed a young mother helping her young son urinate between the cars. Now if this boy had fallen, I bet she would have had a lawyer hired before his body got cold. I respect the opinions of all the wonderful and intelligent people on this site, but I must stick to my guns. Parents must keep a closer eye on their children. Also, when did all this suing crap start. I'm scared to death to get into a fight nowadays. Not because I might get my butt kicked. I'm scared because I don't want to get sued!!!!! What happened to the days when we settled things like men. I know I sound like an old codger, but I'll remind you all that I'm only 23.
Train Buff Headquarter
There was mention of a power disruption on two major IRT lines on Friday.
I was in Flushing and the lights seemed to briefly blink just after 5pm. Was there a city wide voltage drop or something?
Tonight we study "Hot iron on cold steel."
The name Hot Times really qualifies for today's feature. We're going to discuss the molten iron "Bottle Trains" that are operated in the Chicago area. Today Norfolk Southern, prior to them Conrail, and Conrail predecessors Penn Central and Pennsylvania have been operating bottle trains between what is now Acme Steel's 110th St Furnace Plant and their Riverdale Steel plant since the mid 60's.
These are amazing trains as theirs is truly the hottest commodity on the railroad. MolteniIron is loaded into the bottles at around 2500 degrees F. This iron is transported to the Riverdale plant and made into steel.
Conrail is not alone in this type of traffic though. As required, IHB,
Chicago Short Line, EJ&E and Chicago, South Shore & South Bend have used bottle trains to transport molten iron between mills in the Chicago and Northwest Indiana region. Much of this traffic is due to the rebuilding of a particular plant's blast furnaces that produce the iron. When US Steel was rebuilding furnaces, they purchased molten iron from Acme. When LTV was rebuilding their furnaces, again Acme to the rescue. When Bethlehem was rebuilding furnaces, US Steel
came to the aid selling iron to them.
In the case of the Acme to LTV and Acme to US Steel moves, the IHB played a part in handling this business. The EJ&E and South Shore teamed up for the US Steel to Bethlehem Steel moves. Chessie System contributed to these moves as the EJ&E used temporary trackage rights from Curtis in Gary to Miller on Gary's far east side to interchange the trains to the Shore. It was a better and faster connection than the normal interchange between these two railroads that is normally handled of Goff Jct, east of downtown Gary. EJ&E also handles
bottle trains daily within the confines of US Steels Gary Works as well, although their operation is somewhat different and I'll explain that later.
The bottles are manufactured by Treadwell and have 10 or 12 axles under them to disperse the weight. When operated on main track, they are separated by a spacer car, usually a gon or flat, and are restricted to 10 mph loaded and 15 mph empty on main track and 10 mph within interlocking limits. They have a total weight of about 340 tons in each car when loaded. They are equipped with an electric motor that is plugged in at the unloading site and slowly rotary
dumped. It takes 30 to 45 minutes to unload one, about the same time it takes to load one. Each car is lined with firebrick to keep the iron from burning through the sides. Periodically, they need to be relined as the brick begins to deteriorate over time from the intense heat. On occasion, the brick will deteriorate before the car is due to get a reline. When this happens, a "burn through" occurs and the hot iron actually burns a hole in the side of the car and begins to leak out. I have heard of this happening on the main line, but never actually witnessed it. I have however, seen it occur within Gary Works.
The bottles are loaded, made up into a train, not exceeding 5 loaded
bottles and are then transported. A small geep or a switcher normally provide the motive power. Conrail assigned GP15-1's for these assignments for years in the Chicago area. IHB used their switchers. The trains are moved in a priority fashion once released from the furnace plant. The load remains extremely hot for several hours, but they don't want to take chances of being delayed. Once the temperature drops below a certain point though, the molten iron cannot
be used as it loses its integrity. Unlike coffee, it cannot be reheated.
When the IHB runs their bottle trains, they use the NS River Branch
Industrial Track out of 110th St, connect to the SC&S Industrial Track and head to Calumet City, proceed through the yard there and head east reaching the IHB main line at Hohman Tower in downtown Hammond. They head to CP Gibson where they make the left turn, enter the Kankakee Line and head north crossing NS's Chicago Line at CP 502 and entering IHB's Lakefront Yard which sits just to the north of the Chicago Line and the EJ&E's Lakefront Line. I should mention this is
the routing for trains enroute to US Steel. The bottles are hauled to the east end of the yard where they are interchanged to the EJ&E and the J handles the cars via the Edgemoor Lead to Kirk Yard in Gary, around the yard and into US Steel's sprawling Gary Works facility, now the largest plant in their system. The J hands the bottles over to US Steel crews with their own fleet of various EMD switchers
equipped for remote control operation. The Steel crews will spot the cars at the #1 BOP (Basic Oxygen Plant) or the #2 Q-BOP shop for unloading.
Molten iron enroute to LTV's plant in East Chicago take a left turn at CP502 and enter the Chicago Line for a very short stretch to Hick, over the Indiana Harbor Ship Canal and then cross over to CSX's Lake Sub. This is the former B&O Passenger Main. The LTV Marks Plant in East Chicago is reached from the Lake Sub, crossing the EJ&E Lakefront Line to reach the facility and the cars are delivered into the plant where an LTV crew handles the cars from there using LTV power. LTV has a fleet of SW1000's with slugs all painted in a bright
red and white scheme and also equipped for remote control operation.
The J's operation within Gary Works is of a much different nature than that of the IHB or Conrail. First off, the bottles used within the mill are not equipped with air brakes. They are hauled around using only the engine brakes for stopping. 10 MPH is the maximum speed and trains must stop and protect the road crossings. US Steel calls this safe. The real reason is the private contractors that
Steel employs to transport products around the facility hires those that are unaware of the fact trains cannot stop on a dime and that trains have the right of way. They obviously cannot read either as they cannot seem to understand stop signs and crossbucks. There have been collisions involving trucks and trains in the plant. Instead of doing something about the drivers, they stop the trains. I wonder if
these truck drivers have enough money to buy a CDL in Illinois?
The J crews that handle the bottle trains are employed by the EJ&E. US Steel has a contract with the J for this work. They are charged a five figure number per month per job for each bottle job they operate. Also, the J doesn't call them bottles, they call them ladles. While I was there, they had five or six jobs per shift to handle the chores between the four blast furnaces, #4, #6, #8 and #13,
which was gigantic. #13 was switched by Steel crews and not J crews.
The #4 furnace was a continuous caster. When they started a cast, it
continued until the product was all tapped. This meant a job had to be there constantly to spot and pull the bottles. This was the best job in the mill, or at least I think so anyway. We would set two empties under a spout on the west track, with the one closest to the engine spotted first. There was a spacer car between the engine
and the first car. Another empty was spotted under the spout on the east track.
A wand came down, a fire would be ignited and the interior of the first car would be heated. Then, the molten iron was tapped and the cast would begin. Slowly, the liquid iron would begin to flow into the bottle. We would inform the Mill Yardmaster what time the cast began. It would take 30 to 45 minutes to fill the car depending upon its size. There were two different sizes used in the mill, some weighed in at 340 tons or so loaded and the others weighed in at around 420 tons loaded.
When the first car was full, they would tip the spout over to the east track and begin filling this car. A Steel employee would call and OK us to spot the second car. I would pull back one car length to the marker located outside my window. It was nothing more than a piece of scrap lumber that somebody drove into the ground, but it worked. They would give the okay and we waited again. We would notify the Mill Yardmaster when they began to load the second car. He would
then arrange for another bottle job to bring more empties over to us for respotting when they were needed.
After spotting the second car, the spout would be turned back over the that car and it would be filled. When it was fully loaded, the spout again would be directed to the car on the east track and we would be given the okay to pull the two loads out. We would set them over, reach out and grab the two new empties and respot them. They would go ahead and fill that car on the east track. We would then pull it and set it over and notify the Yardmaster that it was full and
respot an empty there. This went on 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I actually got forced onto this job for a few weeks as I was the youngest Engineer and it was a permanent vacancy.
#13 was also a continuous caster with several more spouts and cars spotted and being loaded simultaneously. Steel crews handled the chores at #13 and would set the loads out for a J crew to pull and grab the empties that a J crew delivered.
The other furnaces, 6 and 8, would only have to pulled and respotted as required. If I recall correctly #8 had a short steep drop into it and if you weren't careful, you could crash through the wall there. From what I was told, it had been done in the past on more than one occasion. DOH!
When the loads were pulled, we would take them over to the scale and spot them for weighing. The scale man would then use a long pole mounted on a bracket and dip a measuring device into the bottle. This was to measure the sulfur content. If it was high, the bottle would be moved over to the desulfurization plant. They would be set out here and a Steel job would grab it and spot it under the spout inside the plant. A long pipe and stirring device would be lowered into the molten iron, and heated calcium carbinate would be injected and the stirring device would mix it into the iron to reduce the sulfur content. It put on quite the light show at night. A steel job would then take this bottle over to the #1 BOP Shop and set it for unloading.
Iron that didn't need the desulfurization treatment would get delivered to the #2 Q-BOP Shop and a Steel crew would spot it for unloading when they were ready for it there. This assignment used a switcher with a slug as they were shoving two fully loaded bottles up a very short and steep grade.
We would pull the empties set out by the Steel jobs at the #1 and #2 Shops. The Mill Yardmaster would coordinate with the furnaces where to send the empties next. The bottles were not assigned to a articular furnace, but instead were free runners throughout the mill. The Mill Yardmaster was located at the scale along with the scale man and the Movement Coordinator from Steel.
This was a very well run and well coordinated operation. Communication
played a big factor here. They didn't want to take the chance of something going wrong and not having empties in position for loading. When the furnace was ready to cast, it was ready now, not in fifteen minutes or "whenever we can get a chance to get cars over to you." It was now, period. If they didn't get their cars and couldn't start the cast, they had "pull the wind" on the furnace. This meant the oxygen feed into the furnace and the gas it was mixed with were shut off and
the fire went out. If this happened, it was monumental trouble. They cannot just re-light the fire as it were. The furnace is shut down. The iron inside had to be dumped. This is extremely expensive and time consuming. And if it occurs and it is a railroad error, somebody will get fired.
Pulling the wind account a railroad related failure hadn't happened in
several years. Sometimes due to problems within the furnace, it would be done though. If the furnace was due heavy maintenance, they would shut it down after the last cast was completed. When the scheduled repairs were completed, the furnace would be slowly fired back up. It took several days to get it to operating temperatures, and the first few casts out of it were usually dumped as they are not of the quality of iron required for the steel making process.
There was also the "cinder train." This was made up of eight smaller open top bottles that resembled cups sitting on saucers that were used to haul slag to the dump. Slag is the by product or impurities skimmed of the iron as it cooks. There used to be trains going back and forth to all the furnaces at one point in time. But Steel built "dry pits" adjacent to all the furnaces. Slag would be dumped
into the pits, allowed to cool, broken up and the loaded into trucks and hauled off to the dump. Even had truck competition inside the mill. At one time, the J operated a truck line within the confines of the mill, but lost the contract in the early 90's to an outside source. These trains would dump a couple of times a shift with
slag from each furnace. There was only one furnace left using the cinder trains to dispose of slag while I was there. It was either #6 or #8, I cannot remember for sure. There would normally be two trains a shift from this furnace.
We would haul the cinder train to the dump which was several miles west of the mill. We would spot them for unloading. There was a large deep pit just west of the track with water spraying into it. We would uncouple and run about a quarter mile south of the pit and sit and observe. A machine operator would come out and connect air lines to the cars. He would then dump them one at a time rotary style into the pit. But not very slowly, just start it and over it went until it reach full dumping position. The slag would pour right out. It was quite the sight at night. Plus lots of noise too. Once in awhile, there would be a little bit of iron in the slag. When that iron hit the water, there was quite the explosion. It would rock the engine rather intensely when it happened. When he was finished dumping
them, he would give us the signal and we would run around them and take them back to set out at the furnace.
When there were problems at the #1 BOP or #2 Q-BOP, they could not use all the iron produced. They could not stop iron production, so the iron would just sit around very slowly cooling off. We would wind up hauling the coolest iron off to and it would get dumped into the pit. That was really the sight. It made the a Fourth of July celebration look tame. And loud too!
While the bottle jobs in the mill were pretty good to work, it was a filthy dirty environment in which to perform. Everything there was covered with a fine layer of dust and graphite. I would get the same engine all week. Every evening when I began my shift, I would wipe down the control stand, the handles and my seat. Yet every evening when I started my tour of duty, it looked like it hadn't been done in years. It also wound up in the nose and most likely, the lungs too. When I tied up in the morning, I would take paper towels and clean all that stuff out of my nostrils. My truck out in the Virginia Street parking lot was also always covered with ore dust, coal dust and what have you.
The bottles didn't have covers on them like the ones handled on the main lines. Therefore, if a pocket of gas in the iron exploded, iron would shoot out or spatter all over the place. Glad I was never a Mill Yard Switchman. Some bottles seemed to be just loaded with gas and would pop and shower everytime you started to move.
Now, what happens when the bottles derail. If they are empty, it isn't quite as big of a deal. When they are loaded though, the real problems begin. We had one derail while shoving across the road and into the scale one evening. With two engines and lots of blocking, we were able to pull it back up. This was a treat. When they were too far off or off in bad location, it was real trouble. One bitter cold evening in February 1994, a Steel job had popped a load off at #13 furnace. Our first move of the night was to head over and assist in rerailing it.
We arrived at the scene with all kinds of Steel officials and the J
Trainmaster. There was a Steel switcher and a J switcher already tied onto the car and they had been unsuccessful in their efforts thus far. We tied onto the them and when given the word, all began to pull. We would start and stop as instructed, working on this effort for over an hour. Little was getting accomplished. It was like trying
to nail jello to a wall. When we tried it one last time, the effort went semi-rewarded. The car moved a little and stopped abruptly, but the engines kept pulling. We proceeded to rip the drawbar completely out of the end of the bottle. That ended that. They had to call Hulcher.
While it was fun, the time at the J and the Mill Yard bottle jobs ended when I returned to the IHB in April of 94. Bottle trains on the IHB were fun to operate as they handled great and broke surprising well, unless it was raining. Then, they didn't seem like they wanted to stop. You had to use more air. Running bottle trains at two railroads gave me an opportunity to see a whole different angle of railroading, and also gave me a chance to see part of the steel making process in action.
It was also amazing to watch as the railroads actually responded to the customers needs. They didn't want to screw up this business and lose it. IHB could have lost the business to the Chicago Short Line. They are owned by LTV Steel. But good handling kept it with us.
And so it goes.
Tuch
This time it is my fault for trespassing on a subject that gets my blood up, but maybe all of us on Subtalk should hold a lottery to see which one of us picks the right date when we finally get a President-Elect. What a sick development this has turned out to be. Maybe we can sweeten the pot and make first prize worthwhile. How about a ride on the Sea Beach to Coney Island, a free ride on the Cyclone and Wonder Wheel, and lunch at Nathan's? My students can't believe adults could be so disjointed, assinine and ridiculous in our dealings, but, then again, maybe they really do. I don't know about the rest of you but I'm starting to really get PO'D. We're becoming a laughing stock around the world. We're better than that.
So now Astoria will have the N line, with the same amount of service as it currently has and the V line which will be extra (or is it the W). Either way, Astoria will be over-served while Brighton will be grossly neglected. Well, that's how it's always been.
http://www.bikemap.com/links.htm is a website mostly for bikes, but it provides great maps of all transit in the Philly/Delaware area. Much better transit maps than SEPTA provides. Also check out the "Old Maps" section.
Has anyone been in the Sunnyside train Yard.
How big is it? Do they give tours of the yards or do you have to tresspass to get pictures?
Ehud Barak has announced he will resign; new elections in 60 days.
A garbage train fire on the TTC Bloor line gutted the two car train and held up the morning commute. Here's the article from The Star:
http://www.thestar.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+FTContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=976249930568&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News.
Fantasies and dreams. Hopes that the amount of subway lines that we had 30 years ago would come back soon. (I was never there though I wish I was) If these lines were here, if they were not demolished or if they were built things would be alot different. These things would have been a great help. We could bring them back but the cost is staggering from what I have figured out it would the MTA between 50 and 150 billion dollars to bring the second avenue subway, buy all of the new subway cars for the new lines, and completed the ever wanted the extremely needed IND Second System.
If we had the money we should build it no questions asked...it would be a big thing for the city. Cause everyone from every part of the city is close to the subway.
Christopher Rivera
Someone sent this to me and I just had to share it:
RUDOLPH THE BROADWAY LOCAL
To the Tune Rudolph the red nose Reindeer
Re written by
Edwin Morgan
You've heard about Alphas, and Charlie’s, Deltas and Mary’s.
Eddies, and Nancy’s, Frankie’s and Larry’s.
But tell me do you ever recall, the slowest of the trains that there ever was.
Rudolph the Broadway local was always up against the wall.
And if you ever rode him, you would even swear he crawls.
All of the trains behind him use to swear and call him names.
Then they would run around him, just to make him feel ashamed.
The one stormy Christmas eve, the T.A. came to say.
“Rudolph has equipment ills, so send him off to Forest Hills”.
Now all the trains behind him are also up against the wall.
Rudolph the Broadway local, somethings just don’t change at all.
Once again, the NYCTA has eliminated express service on the E and F trains. Today, as I write this message, all Manhattan bound E and F trains are making local stops from Continental/71st to Queens Plaza. All Jamaica bound E and F trains, are making local stops from Queens Plaza to Roosevelt.
My day started at 8:30 I left my apartment on 108th and 67th Ave(Forest Hills). I am on my way to Brooklyn, and figure I will take the F to the B. I think about walking to 67th Ave. but someone on this website told me that E and F would run normal this weekend when I first posted about Imaginary track work on Tuesday. Instead, I walk to Continental. An F pulls in, on the local track. I say to myself, "again"? As we are riding down the line, I look for the slightest sign of track work. NOTHING. No one was out there. Just express trains being rerouted for no reason.
On the way home, I catch a Jamaica bound F train. I get off at Queens Blvd. I want to wait for an E train, because I can look out the front window on on many of those trains. One comes. We are going local to Roosevelt. We leave QB for 36th. No workers are around. No one was anywhere to be found. Ditto for the rest of the stations.
We get to Roosevelt. We are told we are going express to Continental. Great. Along the route, I observe that all E and F trains are still going local, while at the same time, I am noticing that there are no work crews anywhere along Queens Blvd. Just trains being rerouted for no reason. We get to Continental. I walk upstairs, and see a transit worker. He is rushing to the bathroom. I ask him why the E and F never go express on weekends anymore. He tells me that there is "track work". I ask him "where"? He says, "they're down there". We both know the truth, and go on with our lives.
I just wish the NYCTA would inform the public that for whatever reason, E and F express service in Queens, WILL NEVER BE NORMAL AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Noticed that SEPTA charges fullr fare from senior citizens during rush hour, other times it's free, same with disabled people with the exeption of half fare during off-peak period.
I wonder would this policy ease congestion in NYC.
Arti
Lots of activity over the past two weeks on the high speed line.
As of Monday 11/27, 3263 was again being attacked by the vultures before its impending departure for East Boston. I doubt that there was much electrical equipment left under the car by the time it departed on Wednesday. In an unusual switch, 3263 departed two days before 3260 returned.
Meanwhile the rest of the fleet was starting to exhibit various problems, including no heat on 3238, a serious control problem on 3262, and a bad plug on rebuild 3268. Several cars are also exhibiting severe ride and noise problems.
I stumbled upon 3260's arrival at 2PM Friday 12/1. Hallamore was getting ready to unload it, blocking the south bus loop and diverting the 28, 29 and 31 to the opposite side of the station. By my next visit (just before midnight) 3260 was resting at the far end of the pit track where it remained until Monday when it was moved over the pit. By Tuesday the car was beginning its run in, operating with no passengers over the route. Paper "No Stops" signs were in the windows, while the sign box indicated "M MATTAPAN-ASHMONT". Overall it looks like 3260 came back in a more complete state than either 3265 or 3268, and seemed to be running well when I observed it. Both 3268 and 3260 lack MU connections at the couplers, though the cut-out boxes and levers appear to be in place. As indicated to me by Jonathan Belcher, 3260's headlight is somewhat higher than on the rest of the cars, a trait acquired in the previous rebuild. Hopefully the Mattapan crew will keep nine cars in service for the winter, giving them a little better cushion for a six car schedule, rather than pulling a car almost immediately as was done with 3263, which sat forlorn on the ramp track for almost 3 months. The next car due back is 3087, probably not until late spring or early summer.
Meanwhile construction continues on the "carhouse" which is about 100 feet long and extends over all three tracks. All of the side columns are up and are tied together with cross pieces at several points. The switch from the pit track to the ramp track is entirely inside, allowing five cars to be under the roof, along with whatever shop equipment can be located east of the switch.
UPDATE 12/9/00
Roof framing is now up for the entire length of the shed, with cross bracing going in. It looks like running repairs are getting priority over 3260, but most of the fleet is in better shape than last week.
Gerry
Self explanatory title. Will take pics later.
Train#1936Mike
Please email me, I need some info. Motormen as well. Thank you very much.
Train#1937Mike
I've added some of the signs I've been making, plus more of the bullets for the lines (some of the ones I made, plus some of rmarrero's (R36 9346).
It was hard to do this, because I used Corel, and when I place the codes for the tables and resize the bullets and then save it, it comes out all right, but when I open it again to make more changes, the signs (tables) are all discombobulated (stretched out to full width, backgrounds and fonts default), and the img sizes also revert to default. So I had to do it all in one shot and them upload it.
http://members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/linehistory.html
I noticed that Subtalk wasn't displaying my JPEGs and I went to my Homestead account to check out what was wrong. I looked and I have nothing in there!!! It's gone all gone.
-5200 Out Of Service
I opened a store to sell shirts and stuff at
I opened a store to sell shirts and stuff at Cafepress. Currently it's a good place to buy a blank shirt, mousepad or mug.
JerseyMike and I will upload designs and they will be the official t-shirts for our January trip.
We'll also have sweatshirts, mugs and mousepads.
P.S. I would like to thank Kevin Walsh for telling us about Cafepress.
Currently, I'm into the last 1/2 hour of the NBC 'thriller', "The Atomic Train". After seeing this movie for the 2nd time, I would like to postulate 5 lessons learned by watching the movie,
1) Not all turkeys have wings!
2)Poor movies and cheap wine don't get better with age.
3) The MTA should immediately shelve any idea of transporting nuclear waste by subway at night to increase revenue.
4)If you have only one son - never, never name him Chance.
5) Most importantly, we should choose our president with at least as much care as we use when we buy a toaster.
BTW - for those interested, the US Supreme Court has stopped the Florida recounts.....and while we're at it, can anyone explain to me how a senior citizen in Palm Beach County can keep track of 15 bingo cards but can't mark one ballot correctly?
Woefully inadequate ventilation, evacuation capability and firefighter access to the 16 miles of tunnels serving Penn Station is the topic of an article in Sunday’s Times. A major fire in the tunnels could be disastrous. Amtrak is aware of the potential catastrophic problem, and will never have the funding to address it.
I just bought SC3K today and I'm building a NYC without roads- just subways. Anyone else play this game?
I recieved this e-mail from a friend of mine who is a T/O....here goes.
RUDOLPH THE BROADWAY LOCAL
(sung to the tune "Rudolph the red nose reindeer")
Re written by Edwin Morgan.
You heard about Alphas..and Charlies..Deltas and Mary's.
Eddies..and Nancy's..Frankie's..and Larry's
But tell me do you recall...the slowest train of them all.
Rudolph the Broadway Local... was always against the wall.
And if you ever rode him...you would even swear he crawls.
All of the trains behind him...use to swear and call him names.
They would run around him...just to make him feel ashamed.
Then one stormy Christmas eve...the T.A. came to say.
"Rudolph has equipment ills...so send him off to Forest Hills".
Now all the trains behind him...are also against the wall.
Rudolph the Broadway local..something's just don't change at all.
HO HO HO !!
Bill "Newkirk"
His posts are very distasteful and border on porn. Check a few out! He must be banned from this board.
I was at the Community board 13 meeting Tuesday night and they had TA officials there to discuss things. They are going to tear the entire station down to the ground!!!! It won't get real bad until November 2001. Here are the service changes: 10/01-9/02 N Cut back to 86th Street. B,D,F Run to Stillwell 9/02-5/04 N Cut back to 86th Street. D Cut back to Brighton Beach with shuttle trains to West 8th Street only, F train to Avenue X only. 5/04-Early 2005 B, D, F to Stillwell. N to 86th Street. This means that from September of 2002 until May of 2004, The only train running to Stillwell will be the B!!!! That is gonna hurt the 2003 season BAD. The entire complex will be torn down to the ground and replaced. They did say that the 1930's "BMT Lines" facade will be taken down, restored and returned.
I would like to see some turboliner equipment. Is there a schedule?
-Dan
It seems as if some one has attempted to remove one of the "subway series 2000" signs on the south side of R 36 car # 9413. This train is VERY SPECIAL. It does NOT need to be VANDALIZED. Maybe some of us subtalkers here should try to get a special fan trip going for this very unique train since these cars are supposed to be leaving soon. Any ideas. Im also very happy that this train is performing so well even though it is a MIXED consist. 2 GE cars and 9 WH cars.
If Metrocard transfer would be only time based and not counting how many transfers you make during that period, it would be much simpler to implement intermodal transit, subway to subway transfers where they are not available (for example 63rd and Lex, Court Square Courthouse Square ...) Also bus routes (especially Manhattan) could be shortened, rerouted to improve regularity (who'd take a bus from 125th Street to City Hall?) Also areas underserved by subways in Manhattan (East Side, Far West Side) should have shorter feeder bus service, something like via 1/2nd Avenues from PAS at 34th to PAs at 23rd Street. What do you think?
Arti
I have a question for the board.I was looking up history of the early IRT trains.I got a description for the reason why the first IRT trains were called Composites, but why are the next set of trains are called Hi V's and Lo V's? The two trains are different physically, but why are they called that?
I would like to know if anyone has seen or has pictures of the R34137 vacuum train purchased from ANF Frangeco France in 1997.
-Dan
The CTA in Chicago is again running a Christmas Train. This year's edition is a six car train of rehabed 2600 cars with Santa on a flat car between the 4th and 5th cars. Yes Santa is real, the reindeer are not. Don't know how many layers he has under the red suit, but Santa stays at his post from end terminal to end terminal.
Usually the train operates on Saturdays, two round trips starting in the pm through about 1800. The train runs as an extra. Saturday, Dec. 9, the train ran on the Red Line. Its decorated with umteen thousands of bulbs and really draws arcs over section breaks.
Last Saturday the Blue Line was host and upcoming weeks it will be the Green Line followed by an Orange/Brown excursion. The train also does stints around the Loop elevated and participated in a food giveaway Sunday, December 3.
Before Saturday's Red Line journeys, the train gave rides at the unpublicised Skokie Shops Open House which featured a display of Chicago "L" cars from SSRT #1, 4271/4272, 6720, the 2000 Pullman Heritage "standin", and examples of each current high performance car.
Does any other system operate such a train?
David Harrison
On my visit to the SBK scrap yard with BMTman and several others, I observed the following in the yard: R-40 4427 and 4428 (Bushwick-Aberdeen Collision), R-42 4664 (Willy B), and R-44 5319 (Far Rockaway Fire), which sustained various degrees of damage, are no longer within Transit Property. Off to the big yard in the sky they go!
One could also find R-22 7349, formerly of the Signal Dolly, and Diesel 11, a one truck locomotive. 207th Street Yard and Coney Island Yards, which saw spring cleaning have that much more space without these hulks of cars that no longer function.
You could also find a pair of modified IRT cars, that sport silver paint. These cars were actually the testbeds for the R-142s, with futurisitic interiors.
There was much to be found there, and one has to wonder what else might wind up at 39th Street. I suspect the Concourse Yard R-12/R-14 pair is next, perhaps 1368,69, and 70.
-Stef
I believe that SubwayTom has nothing btter to do that disrupt the SubTalk environment with useless, unintelligent, immature blabbering that is in no way welcome in our message board. He is even worse that Salaamallah who at least posts coherent although sometimes controversial opinions. I will put SubwayTom in my killfile, and I suggest to you all to do the same.
-Dan
The Delaware River Port Authority, owner of PATCO, has flexed its management muscle over the previously de facto semi-autonomous transit agency. Story in Sunday’s Camden Courier-Post.
After reading "Subway Cars Of The BMT" written by James Clifford Greller I was lest by the impression that the articulated subway cars were the best type of cars that were ever used anywhere in the New York City subway system. The "Green Hornet" that operated from 1934 to 1941 on the BMT was in my own opinion the best of them all. It featured an aluminum body, photo-electric cells that turned on the interior lights whenever the train entered a tunnel, forced air ventilation, chimes to warn passengers of closing doors and was capable of one man train operation. The train was a five section articulated unit. I think that the T/A should look into building a modern version of this wonderful train for use on both the IRT and the BMT/IND divisions building 9' and 10' wide units for the respective divisions. It would be much lighter than the cars that are in use at this time and should require less power to move them which would save precious energy resources. It would also be more comfortable than the trains that are currently in use.
BMTJeff
After reading "Subway Cars Of The BMT" written by James Clifford Greller I was left by the impression that the articulated subway cars were the best type of cars that were ever used anywhere in the New York City subway system. The "Green Hornet" that operated from 1934 to 1941 on the BMT was in my own opinion the best of them all. It featured an aluminum body, photo-electric cells that turned on the interior lights whenever the train entered a tunnel, forced air ventilation, chimes to warn passengers of closing doors and was capable of one man train operation. The train was a five section articulated unit. I think that the T/A should look into building a modern version of this wonderful train for use on both the IRT and the BMT/IND divisions building 9' and 10' wide units for the respective divisions. It would be much lighter than the cars that are in use at this time and should require less power to move them which would save precious energy resources. It would also be more comfortable than the trains that are currently in use.
BMTJeff
I met up with the Subtalkers at the 36th street station in Brooklyn. My ride in was rather uneventful, I caught the 7 in Flushing, got off at 74th, took an R to 34th street (the R was empty), and a B to 36th. There were delays at 36th due to CI-bound B's going over the N line.
Only the bus ride (N21) proved to be eventful. Almost hit a guy who ran into the road signalling the bus (he wasn't at a bus stop). Needless to say we did not pick him up (we get alot of grumpy old men from Roslyn and Great Neck).
And it was packed.
But getting back to the tour, it was interesting to see delapidated tracks still in use occasionally. And the ol' hand throw switches were everywhere. The industrial waterfront was creepy like I remembered, there were guard dogs, a carcass of a dead cat, as well as sagging powerlines and sweatshop buildings that belong in China.
The railroad yard was interesting, as we saw what few business they had (a transformer) sitting in the yard. Some of us found old 3rd rail shoes.
We were hoping to get into the Army terminal but we were declined. All in all an interesting day, something I'd never do alone though. Going back I had an R32 N, which was behind the R the whole time, until 57th where we were held for a minute. Fast ride through 60th street, the 7, then a crowded N21 bus home. Well at least I had all new Orions (no Cummins) today!
I forgot a few important things. The sight of an R44 in the junkyard was interesting, the train had literally been stripped bare!
It's a shame these trains sit in a junkyard, they should be in a museum.
Also while heading home on the N, there was a horrible burning smell in Court Street and the Montague tubes, smelled like an electrical fire. This was around 2:30pm or so, and I wonder if there was a fire somewhere since it looked like Brooklyn bound N and R trains were backing up in Manhattan. It seemed I saw a train at every station on the S/B track.
Also I set up a new rail message board on yahoo
Check it out at
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains
It's Here! It's Here! It's Here! It's Here! It's Here!
Arriving in Philly at 6:35 AM is the First Revenue Run of ACELA.
Load the camera. Charge up the video camera. Connect to the Internet. Tune in the scanner. Its the Season to be a Railfan!
NO, YOU ARE NOT DREAMING. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. ACELA IS FINALLY HERE and its comming to a North-East Corridor near you.
Is anybody going to get up early and greet it? They did a bit on Channel 6 Action News. They had a Chopper 6 shot of the trainset as it went through North Philly.
Judging from the turnout yesterday, at the Transit Learning Center in Bensonhurst, about 50% of the 1,200+ people called for the Train Operator Selection Survey turned out. The TOSS, is the next phase of testing for those on the list for Train Operator.
Hopefully, the Chief will have a story about this, with an exact number of those who showed up.
This is a very detailed account about how one actually becomes an engineer. As you can see it is quite a bit more involved that becomming a motorman. After reading this you will see why they deserve the title "engineer" and not something like driver or operator. BTW I never got a Part 1 about training so don't ask.
******************************************************************************
Today it is; Part 2 of Training
After spending some five and a half months on the railroad, the railroad
gods decided to do me a favor. A favor that I believe I have paying them
back for ever since. I walked into the office on the morning of 5 April 1979
after working some twelve hours, going dead and getting the always popular
cab ride back in. I happened to glance at the bulletin board and noticed a
posting from Superintendent Mike Kelly offering all Trainmen interested, the
opportunity in becoming Engineers. Mr Kelly had just recently replaced
Richard Turner who was transferred to Neff Yard in Kansas City.
I was dead ass tired and ready to hit the racks and dreading the thirty
minute drive home before I read this notice, but I immediately sprang back
to life after I finished reading it. I headed right for Mr Kelly's office
and told his secretary that I wished to sign up for the Engineer program.
She ushered me straight into Mr Kelly's office and we immediately started
discussing the program and its criteria. He had me fill out a form stating
my intentions and then sent me to see George Brown, the Road Foreman of
Engines on the Chicago Division. George explained all of the requirements to
complete the program and earn the promotion.
Upon entering the formal training program, I would be sent to North Little
Rock, AR for school. The company would provide transportation or I could
drive and be reimbursed. They provided lodging and meal money. We would
attend daily classes that included training films, lectures, homework and
lots of study. After this session was completed, I would return to Chicago
to begin my on the job training portion.
After approximately six months of OJT, I would return to North Little Rock
where I would attend more school, and then take the final exams. If I was
sucesful, I would return and George would sign my card and I would be
promoted to Locomotive Engineer. Should I fail either, or both of the tests,
I would be given a chance to train some more, return to North Little Rock
(this time at my own expense), go for another session of school and be
retested. I assured George that there would be no need to have a second
chance as I would do it the first time. He was glad to hear this and
welcomed me aboard. George would be a vital link for me in the upcoming
months as you will read later.
I should mention that at this point in time, it was not mandatory to take
promotion to Engineer. I was only required to take promotion to Conductor
within two years of my entering train service. The promotion to Engineer was
optional. This was changed in 1988 with the so-called "Halloween" agreement
made with the United Transportation Union.
As many of you may know, I always wanted to be a Locomotive Engineer. For as
long as I can remember I wanted to run trains. I believe I said "choo choo"
long before I ever said "mama" or "dada". I have no clue as to where this
ever came from as I have no railroaders on either side of my family. On the
contrary, several of my relatives were Firefighters. The closest I came to
railroad relatives were two uncles that attempted hop a freight train here
in Indiana while they were teens. One slipped and the other fell trying to
grab him. The both survived, but the one lost one leg while the other lost
both of them. Everyone used to laugh at me when they would ask me what I
wanted to do when I grew up and I said "Be an Engineer."
Anyway, George sent me back over to see Harold Cartwright (got it right this
time) to arrange a schedule. There were about half a dozen men and women
ahead of me that were already in Engine Service as Hostlers and Fireman that
still had to go through the program. I would become a Hostler and await my
turn. Haorld set me up with a schedule for training to become a Hostler and
then I would be turned loose on that job.
A Hostler simply put, hostles engines. This job required me to move engines
around the roundhouse and servicing tracks. I would pull inbound power up
for fueling, sanding, inspections and the like. I would spot power inside
one of four tracks inside the roundhouse for servicing. Actually, the
building was of a rectangular shape, but who ever heard of a
rectanglehouse? Myself, along with my helper, would switch out engines and
build new locomotive consists for outbound trains. I would turn power on
the wye as required, to have the cabs facing the right direction. I was also
responsible for making sure the outbound power was properly supplied with
ice, water, paper towels, tools, extra air hoses, knuckles and other
required supplies, and also that the cabs were cleaned and the windows
washed. I was also to make sure the power had been fueled as well. On more
than one occasion, power ran out of fuel on the road as nobody had
positively ascertained that the power was indeed fueled. While there were
people assigned to perform these tasks, it was up to me to perform the
outbound inspection to make sure everything was done.
Another set of tasks I was instructed to attend to was making sure that the
windows on the trailing units were all closed, the lights in the cabs turned
off, all handles removed, all class and number lights on trailing units shut
off, the awnings over each window pulled in and the multiple unit hoses not
in use tucked away in their holders. To this day, I still do all of these
little chores on my power. Talk about having something burned into the
brain.
I had several twelve hour nights of training to be a Hostler beginning at
2300 hours on 5 April 1979. My trainer was none other than Rowena, the same
girl who was with me when I burned up the 1741. Little did "Weenie" know
what would be in store for us in the future. She showed me how to cut in
and cut out the automatic and independent brake valves on the locomotives.
Weenie also taught me how to start a locomotive, how to shut one down, how
to set up the headlight controls and a few other required tasks. I was
turned loose after three days and began working the night trick, 2300-0700
with Wednesdays and Thursdays off.
While hostling, I began to watch, ask questions and learn as much as could
from the machinists and electricians at Yard Center Diesel. Several of them
were very willing to take a few moments to explain things to me whenever I
asked. This would pay dividends over all of the following years of my
career.
I graduated to the swing job which covered the days off of all the other
jobs and gave me Thursday and Friday off. Eventually, I wound up working
days with weekends off. The hostling jobs were despised by most, and were
also the lowest paying engine service jobs on the property. We were like a
bad case of diarrhea; they kept us running. I was in great physical shape
and healthy as a horse from all the walking back and forth I did between
units as well as to and from the inbound and outbound tracks. Also developed
quite the upper body strength from constantly climbing on and off all the
engines, although the time in train service also helped there.
Then, I was called and told I was going out into the yard as a Fireman. They
had hired yet another Hostler, so I had enough whiskers to make a move into
the yard and away from the nuthouse, er, roundhouse. This also gave me a
little more money as Fireman paid a higher daily rate. I started working
some transfer assignments that my little bit seniority allowed me to hold
while I awaited my turn to head to school. During this period, I managed to
get myself into trouble and wound up being disciplined for some 75 days with
no pay. When I returned after this little vacation, I made a promise to
myself that I would never serve time off again.
Finally in the summer of 1980, I got my turn in North Little Rock at the
Training Center. Myself and another guy from Yard Center decided we would
fly down. I don't care to fly and had to consume "attitude altering" liquid
refreshment to prepare myself for the flight. This day was no exception. I
could have been flown to Bora Bora and would not have cared that day.
We attended two weeks of school along with about sixteen or eighteen other
guys from around the entire system. We had hours of lectures, movies and
even a tour of the old Pike Avenue Shops, which were the largest heavy
repair shops on the MoPac system. We were issued all sorts of study
materials, of which I still have almost all. After our school, we went back
to our respective divisions and began our run as "Student Engineers".
It was then that I learned what one of the things the neglected to tell me
when I first went into engine service; the pay. I went from making around
$83 per day to $66.13 a day. I didn't get overtime until I had worked at
least fortyeight hours each week. There were no arbitrary payments. The
government, through the CETA Program, was footing the bill for our training.
This is what they reimbursed each railroad per man per day for our training.
Some railroads paid more than this rate, but not the MoPac. Undaunted, I
remained in the program determined to earn the promotion.
I made the rounds on all the assignments working with numerous Engineers. I
had a couple of really great trainers. One in particular was Howard Hanna.
Howard was a salty dog. Some said he ate gunpowder for breakfast and washed
it down with vinegar and lemon juice. I was told he would make my life a
living hell as he did not care for students. He made some students beg to be
reassigned. I was filled with all sorts of horror stories about the man. But
one Engineer, Stanley Pipinis, Pipi, did me a huge favor. After working with
with him for several weeks on an intermodal switcher at Canal Street, he
called Howard and told him that he would be getting a really good student;
one who really wanted to learn. It was a great move on Pipi's part. Howard
took to me like a dog to a bone. We really hit it off.
Howard taught me things that he didn't teach other students. He showed me
how to be in full control of the train at all times. He would constantly
quiz m about various rules, signals and his favorite, "where's the caboose?"
He would ask me where the caboose is right now. I would respond to the
approximate location and he would then have me call later and ask Walter
exactly where he was. I got really good at this and it has really been
beneficial for me. Howard also showed me how to keep unruly Conductors in
line as well. We had great fun working together. He made the training fun
and educational. The single best part of training with Howard was the day he
played student and I played Engineer. He took the controls and told me that
he was the green kid fresh out of the program. He knew nothing. It would be
up to me to explain everything to him. And so we began.
I had to inform Howard of every single thing to do. Everything. Whenever we
started the train, I had to coach him through it. Slowing and stopping were
also fun. It is far more difficult to tell someone to do it than it is to do
it yourself. And everything feels far different on the Fireman's side than
it does when you are in that Engineer's seat. Much of what we do, the how,
when and why we do it comes from the sense of feel. That feeling in your
seat. You really do run by the "seat of your pants." I must have done well
as Howard was laughing and joking and having a great time. We didn't get
into any trouble, no near misses or close calls, no panic stops. And old
Walter Hall on the caboose didn't scream once about a bad ride. After we got
in that trip, Howard went to see George Brown and told him he felt I was now
ready to be promoted.
This is a note about then as opposed to now; cabooses. We had to make sure
we didn't kill those guys back there. Slack action can be deadly. We had to
take the "boys in the back" into consideration when we did something on the
head end, be it starting, accelerating, slowing or stopping. Today, there is
no concern for the tail end. Well, let me rephrase that, there is not as
much concern for the ride on the tail end. FRED doesn't complain about a bad
ride. Should it get far too rough, he just lets go and falls off.
George Brown had been an Engineer on the Louisiana Division before becoming
a Road Foreman of Engines. He took the promotion and was sent to Chicago.
Some people didn't like him. Maybe because he was black, which a stupid
reason not to like somebody, but some people are just like that. George was
always very fair and decent to me. He took it upon himself to hold weekly
instructional classes for the students. This was not required of him and
other students I spoke with said they didn't get such an opportunity. George
covered different topics at each class. He would make himself available to
answer questions. He gave us pop quizzes. If he saw you doing something
wrong, he came and spoke to you about it one on one. He didn't make a scene
in front of the crew. He treated you with decency.
When I passed my exams and returned home, George called me to congratulate
me. He didn't have to, but he did it anyway. I think he was like a proud
papa whenever one of his students earned the promotion.
The last time I spoke with George about ten years ago, he was one of the
managers of Union Pacific's Engineer Training Program.
During my training, I had another epsiode that gave me an extended vacation
from work. But this time, it wasn't discipline, it was a motorcycle accident
that nearly killed me. Interestingly enough though, when I regained
conciousness and realized I had been in some sort of accident, I didn't
believe it was a motorcycle accident. For some reason, I had flashed back to
a near miss situation from the night before when I was at work. A garbage
truck had driven around the gates as we rapidly approached this particular
crossing. While we didn't hit him, it was close. Close enough that I had my
hand on the automatic brake valve and was ready to dump the air. Somehow, my
mind had me believing we had indeed hit that garbage truck. But the strange
part was that I remembered who I was out riding with and I was inquiring as
to whether they were injured as well.
As a result, I missed six months, one week and two days of work. I went
through several surgeries and hospital stays. This time off did give me
plenty of time to study though. And study I did. The girl I was dating at
that time Kimberlee, was assisting me in my studies. Most of this stuff
probably made no sense to her at all, but she put up with it just the same.
She remains a close and dear friend to this very day.
I returned to work in February 1981. I trained for another four months or so
and went back to NLR for the final session of school and the final exams.
The guy who I had gone there with the first time had been terminated for
participating some less than legal activities. This time I went with another
guy who was not too serious about the program. He was out partying
constantly (as opposed to my part time adventures) and was always half
asleep, if not unconcious in class.
The instructor, a man named John Wallace, reminded us on numerous occasions
about the penalty for getting caught cheating on the exams. The class just
prior to us had been victimized by two students who opted to take the
dishonest method. These two were caught cheating red handed. They were
terminated on the spot and sent home. There is no chance for vindication in
this situation. You are terminated, period. The unions will not even contest
this action as they do not stand for cheating either. We were reminded that
we were the first class held since this scandal and how we had all better
"fly right."
John was an interesting character. He was an older promoted man from the old
MoPac. His title was Assistant Manager Locomotive Engineer Training.
Sometimes he would get into a mood and share stories with us of his early
days as an Engineer and the things that could and did go wrong. He would
also recount to us stories of being a Road Foreman of Engines and having to
drive 200 miles in snow or freezing rain to meet up with a train
experiencing motive power problems. Apparently, wherever he was assigned was
always besieged with horrible weather all year round. He would tell of a
breaker that was tripped and merely needed to be reset, a fuse that had
blown and needed to be replaced or of an engine protective device tripped
that likewise, only needed to be reset and the unit restarted. Sort of like
a parent telling their kids of walking to school 365 days year uphill both
directions in two feet of snow. What John was emphasizing here was to do all
of the trouble shooting you could before getting somebody to come out a long
way for something simple.
On Friday of the first week, we took the operating rules exam. It was 670
questions. You had to get a minimum of an 80% to pass. I got a 90.5. I was't
too happy with this score as I felt I should have done far better. The
following Friday we took the air brake and mechanical exams. This one was
766 questions, again you had to get at least an 80%. I got a 96 on this one.
It was far more difficult and I did better, go figure! There were four essay
questions on it and they had to be right as each counted for five points.
They were on all the different brake tests. Each answer had to include all
the steps in proper sequence and without fail, had to begin with the phrase,
"Upon receipt of proper signal or request". John Wallace beat this into our
heads all of that second week. I am very strong willed, which some folks
confuse with being hard headed, but they are mistaken. That phrase not only
made it through my skull and into the brain, it is now imbedded in there so
firmly as to make one think that I was born with that knowledge. In fact, I
can still recite them word for word and know what it all means. But
nonetheless, a few still managed to forget that phrase.
When all was said and done, all of us but one, passed the exams and were
promoted. Two guys from Kansas even managed to get 100% on both exams. I was
impressed. The one failure was my comrade from Chicago. He crashed and
burned on the first exam and went back to Chicago right after that as his
wife then went into labor. But I don't believe his flunking induced that
labor though.
So when it was all said and done, I received my promotion to Engineer on 17
July,1981. John Wallace met with us the following morning at the hotel.
Needless to say, we were a rather hungover bunch. We all celebrated our good
fortune and success. I didn't make it in until something like 0300. And my
celebrating began at about 1330 the previous afternoon. It wasn't all
partying though. We all did take time out to go and eat dinner. John gave us
a pep talk and a speech of congratulations. He then gave us our cards (which
I still have today) and turned us loose.
I was now an Engineer. I'll bet all those people that laughed at me as a kid
aren't laughing now.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Watch for part 3, continuing training, coming soon to a monitor near you.
Get ready New Yorkers... Chicago is in the midst of the season's first major blizzard and it's headed your way! We're expecting upwards of 12" of snow by midnight tonight, along with gusty winds, bitter cold temperatures, and possible additional lake-effect snow.
The worst of it is expected to hit during the day today, while I will be safely perched on the 54th floor of the Sears Tower. But based on my morning commute, it looks like the CTA is holding up rather well so far. I was on a Red Line train of rebuilt 2600's, and other than being more crowded than usual, my commute was free of unusual delays. How well have the other Chicago SubTalkers fared so far?
Don't forget that the Budd 2600-series trains (which form the backbone of the CTA system) failed miserably two winters ago due to a design defect which allowed snow into the electrical components of the motors, shorting them out. The 2600's are currently being rebuilt by Alstom, and the design defect is being corrected. The majority of the 2600's on the Red Line have now been rebuilt, but the Blue Line still has a large number of 2600's that have yet to be rebuilt. It will be interesting to see if the CTA learned its lesson; I bet Frank Kruesi doesn't want a repeat of the verbal spanking he got from Mayor Daley when the CTA imploded during that blizzard. (Upwards of 25% of the CTA's rail fleet was put out of service due to the blizzard, forcing trains to be transferred from the other lines to cover the Red and Blue lines. It was certainly interesting to see a train of Orange Line 3200's at Logan Square on the Blue Line!) The fortunate side-effect of the political fallout was that Daley immediately put the kabosh on Kruesi's proposal to re-number all the bus routes in the city. Never mind the fact that the City had been neglecting public transit in Chicago for decades, but that's another topic.
Stay tuned...
-- David
Chicago, IL
The New York Transit Museum is taking thoughts and ideas on the celebration of the birth of the subway, which is the date that appears as the subject line of this message.
Here's a link.
I have one of my own
- A 5-car "museum train" of Low-V cars will run in revenue service on the numbered lines (the train will be 3 cars long on the 42 Street Shuttle). These trains will be followed by "regular" trains, similar to the way the SOAC cars ran while in New York.
- A two-unit D type train will also run in revenue service, similar to the way the Low-V's are run. They will run on what will be (in late 2001) the N, Q, W, J, M, L, and Z lines.
- If any IND cars are operational, put them on what are now the A, B, C, D, E, F, and G, and Rock Pk Shuttle lines. A 4 or 5-car train should do there. Run them similar to the other "museum" trains. Except for the case of the Rock Pk Shuttle, which will have to abandon OPTO for that train. Probably use cars owned by the RPC.
- Bring the Redbirds (those that haven't been filled with H2O) out of retirement, paint them in their original colors, and send them off through the IRT. What do you think? What are your ideas?
Click HERE for real-time updates on the Boston Globe's "Acela Express vs. air shuttle Race."
A Daily News article about The sinking homes in Logan and Wissinoming, and how the ash got there from Center City. On PRT trolleys, of course.
the d-train could go to chruch ave on the culver line via exp.
the d-train could go to chruch ave on the culver line via exp.
All the more recent messages have two dates. The second date given as a new heading. It looks like this:
d-train - dtexp - Mon Dec 11 15:56:08 2000
- - Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969
Is the date Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969 suposted to contain some seceret meaning?
Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone's had any experience with...
A) Search engine packages (i.e. something that can be installed locally and index a site- not interested in a Google, AltaVista, Excite, etc co-brand). I use glimpse/webglimpse right now and if there were something better out there I'd like to see it.
B) "favicon.ico" -- could someone maybe design one of these for the site?
Please reply privately.
Thanks,
Dave
I had another great transit dream last night and it was a ride on the LIAR. Actually this is my second dream ride on the LIAR.
It starts out with me walking on the Mail Line RoW somewhere before Jamaica. The Main only had 2 tracks, but the RoW was very wide. I was right before an interlocking and I saw JAY tower, only it wasn't JAY. It was painted like NASSAU, but based on the design of HUNT tower (Huntington PA). I remember that I was trying to find the LIAR connection to the NJT terminal at Hoboken. Anyway I descided to take a little LIAR ride. I suddenly was standing at the RFW of a M# EMU train. We went past JAY, then HALL (which was identical to JAY), we then crossed to the other track and went through the old Jamaica Station at like 80mph. The old station was in the middle of town and was at grade. W/o stoping we went on to the new Jamaica station. This is the 8 track station we all know and love, but in my dream world it had been a recent transit project built in a non-urban area outside of Jamaica. The conductor never took my ticket and I got off and went into the concourse under the track level. A railfan w/ a blazing scanner passed me and I saw that they had a huge model board in the station for all to see. It had all the nearby LIAR routes and all the trains were lit up as LED lights. Way Cool!
Big Ed's divorce is apparently progressing better than he expected. He is in the process of moving his personal possessions back to Livingston, Montana, where he plans on making his home again. He hopes to be there permanently before the holidays, and may have already bid North Dakota goodbye as you read this.
His spirits are better than they were earlier in the proceedings. He has gotten his model trains and the remaining copies of his book back, and hopes to resume selling them once he gets settled. He misses his friends at this site, and says to say hi. Hopefully there will be the possibility in the future that he may be able to get back on the internet, and also SubTalk.
Alert for those who get Jerseyvision (NJN): Tuesday night (Dec 12) at 10 PM: :Fabulous Trolleys: The History of Trolleys in America".
Last week, I got 30 votes on the poll. This week, something of more interest. For those of you who didn't read the other posts, the Boston Globe sent two reporters to New York City. This morning, they started out at their hotel at the same time and were heading to some landmark in Boston (a post office of some sort). One was going by plane, the other by Acela Express. The guy who took the plane, after crossing LaGuardia Airport twice and getting on a plane over an hour after he planned to, beat the guy on the Acela by two minutes.
As to which got more work done, well, that is a different matter.
Now, this week's Oren's Transit Page "Take One" Poll:
Please take this poll from the perspective of a business man, not a railfan. For the purposes of this poll, this web site and your life of a railfan, is nonexistant.
Remeber, polls change every Monday afternoon.
How are station announcements transmitted, and are they live or a recording? And the sound effects, like the drop of water sound (when a train is approaching) and the departure bell, where are they produced. You'll hear them at stations where there is no tower, like at 34th street for the shuttle train, or at Grand street when the shuttle was running, and when the B&D were terminating at 34th due to bridge work.
Also whoever here told me about www.asianfriendfinder.com site it was a waste of time, you can't view all the profiles for free even though they say it's free(so I un-registered). Shame that people put a price just trying to beat loneliness! That's why I appreciate www.nycsubway.org. This is the most comprehensive web site about rail transit systems on the web, plus this great message board. And it's free! We must thank David for his hard work in keeping this site running, especially at this time of year. Christmas is a time of year not for gifts, but for thankfulness and love. Even though I don't have my Mom anymore I'm grateful for whoever cares about me, that I have a roof over my head, great music to enjoy, and trains to ride on.
I set up a little web page of my own on Yahoo, and you can see it here
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains
I'd like to spruce up the Photos area with current subway and SIRTOA pictures, so join!
What actually DID happen to the subtalk code?
I have been informed that the Broadway Junction "L" station has been desecrated by the installation of those loopy "hat" lights that have been seen cluttering up the Bronx IRT and the Broadway BMT. What a sacrilege! I can just see it now. They have the ability to make the old 1917-style lights (they did that for Myrtle, Queensboro Plaza and Sheepshead Bay), why didn't they use THOSE at Broadway Junction? Idiots! Numbskulls!! IMBECILES!!!! This will ruin the look of the station!! I'm so mad , I could eat a light bulb!!!!!!!!!!
wayne :o<
Maybe I'm just imagining things or maybe its just senility creaping in but I seem to remember the original LIRR M-1's had carpeting in their non-smoking cars. I distinctly remember it because I always rode in the smoking cars in those days and the main difference between the 2 cars was the carpeting. (besides the thick smoke billowing out the doors every time they opened) Also, while we're at it I seem to remember water fountains and waste paper slots just outside the lavoratory door. I guess since there's still alot of M-1's left and none of them have carpets, water fountains, or garbage slots, I assume they took 'em out. Anyone else remember?? Am I going nuts or do I remember correctly??
i am starting a rumor that due to many customer's complaints that they saw gypsy moths flying around in several different r-68 cars, the entire r-68 fleet will be mothballed... workers in the parts stockroom in the concourse shop have been phoning hardware stores throughout the metropolitan area trying to locate approximately 1000 red mothball cylindrical containers with hangers that will be used to mothball the fleet...they are also seeking several case of mothballs to place in these containers...
upon the advice of heypaul pest control industries, each car will have one of these old style mothball containers hanging from one of the horizontal poles in the car...
customers who use the d train, and who are allergic to mothball vapors, are advised to use the q train, which does not have this problem...
heypaul
c.e.o. heypaul pest control industries, a subsidiary of the heypaul military, industrial, and heavy rail complex....
what are rules for t/o's is cases of very bad fog (can't see the signals)?
How does everybody feel about building a Queens Plaza("E","R","V")-to-Queensboro Plaza("7","N")transfer connection tunnel (maybe 2 blocks long), or a Court Square ("7" train)-to-Court Square/Ely Avenue ("E","G","V") (1/2 block long). Obstacles to both are that in each csae, one station is above ground, one below, but just think of the options Manhattan-bound riders would have if one of the tunnels (42nd St, 53rd St, 60th St) had a fire or a stalled train! And people who are afraid of doing these transfers on the LIC streets during the wee hours could do them within the MTA system, which would hopefully be safer.
ATTENTION ALL SUBTALKERS!
The MTA has announced a public hearing for January 23, 2001, to allow public response to the proposed 63rd St service: F train running via 63rd St, V train on 53rd St from 71-Continental to 2nd Av station, E train running same as currently.
The hearing will be on Tuesday, January 23, 2001, at Long Island City High School, 14-30 Broadway, LIC, Queens, and will begin at 6:00PM. You can register to speak until 7PM at the meeting, or you can register or send comments to Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director, MTA Government and Community Relations, 347 Madison Av, New York NY 10017. Telephone: 212-878-7483. You can find the closest subway station on a Web-based map by going to www.straphangers.org.
Many of you have posted some interesting alternatives to the proposed service. Please don't reserve them for nycsubway.org use only. Show up to the hearing and present them. Let others in the community hear you speak up.
If you can't come: Write to MTA by US mail as listed above, and send your city councilperson and borough president a copy (US MAIL IS STILL THE BEST WAY TO CONTACT ELECTED OFFICIALS IN GENERAL).
This is an 8.5 inch x 11 inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collector¹s MUST HAVE. The supply is very limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea.+ $2. P & H in check or Money Order
Made out to Mike Makman.
To: Prof. Putter, Po Box 755, Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
I was very busy today and could not make it all the way to south station for the 5:12 departure. However, I did make it down the road to the route 128 station just in time to see the trainset stop and leave the station. The train looked pretty full, but not sold out. I can't wait to see the train go by at full speed (or near it)...which I hope to see next week when I go home to CT! -Nick
.it seems that the new board works fine...a special thanks to the
webmaster !!
You are breaking up a fight. One of the guys in the fight punches you. Do you:
a- Hit him back.
b- Continue to try breaking up the fight.
c- Walk away.
d- Call the police.
Your friends would describe you as:
a- Laid back.
b- Easy going.
c- Aggressive.
d- Consistent.
Monitored the scanner all day and didn't detect any major problems, so I give the CTA an "A" for surviving the 13-15 inch blizzard Monday. It snowed all day, at times up to 2 inches per hour. Then the winds kicked in this evening and the bottom fell out of the temperatures.
Blue lights, BO wayside signals, and some door problems were the major complaints. CTA had extra trains out. After sunset and with the freezing temps, some track switches froze. I should have gotten out with the cam corder to catch the snow brooms in action, but my scanner batteries weren't charged.
The CTA put out extra manpower and had service people on duty well before the am rush and this seemed to have turned the trick. Plus the 300 rehabbed 2600's seemed to have fared OK.
Now the wind is blowing that fine powdery snow thats known to get into traction motors and circuits. We'll see how midnight service fares and how the am rush goes. High of only 12 above tomorrow.
Even the TV news coverage featured mostly cold passengers who also praised the "L" and the buses. Of course many stores and businesses closed early and that spread out the pm rush hour.
David Harrison
for the last two weeks a flock of buzzards have been hovering over both the kawasaki and bombardier assembly plants as well as the mta storage yards in new york city where the delivered cars are being stored... what does this portend?...
Here's the link to the Boston Globe article on the train vs. plane "race" yesterday.
A set of 3 articles in today's Daily News discusses the current TWU power struggle.
The Oaks Model RR club has posted a .mepg movie of the 12/11 run of the ACELA Express as it blows out through the fog at Bristol, PA at hi-speed.
The Link Is:
www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr
Go to the movie archive section. Also the Oaks Club got evicted from their clubhouse and they are going to have to tare down their large and impressive layout. They have asked anybody who can come by to help them w/ the demolition or just to view it before it goes.
railfan hp was first observed purchasing a fun pass from the metrocard machines at the south end of sheepshead bay station... hp put a $10 bill in the machine... upon issuance of his card, he examined the back of the card very carefully... hp then examined each of the gold coins carefully, testing them with a bit of acid to see if they were real gold... hp had also requested a metrocard receipt, which he carefully put in a large envelope stuffed with similar receipts...
hp did not enter the system from the south end of the station, but walked around to the main entrance on sheepshead bay road... he then asked the station agent for the latest subway map... the agent gave him a may 2000 map, which hp refused, indicating that he needed the nov 2000 map... the station agent asked him "what's the difference?" ... hp spent approximately 8 minutes explaining the difference, much to the consternation of about 20 people waiting to buy metrocards...
hp then swiped his card about 5 times, and finally gained entry... once through the turnstyle, he bent down and started recording some numbers from the back of the turnstyle... unfortunately several customers using the same turnstyle, tripped over hp as they sought entry... one of these people apparently recognized hp from a new york times article on his activities and asked hp for his autograph... hp went into a panic, as he is extremely fearful of the public...
hp immediately sprinted to the stairs and then to the front end of the northbound platform... shortly, a d train came slowly into the station, but hp paid it no mind... 8 minutes later another d train pulled into the station, but hp continued staring at some markings on the running rails on the express track... this continued for about 1 hour, until hp screamed "i forgot it's saturday, there is no q service"
upon the arrival of the next d train, hp reluctantly entered the first car... he was observed copying down car number 3572... this seemed strange, as the car number was 2753... apparently hp encrypts all his notes... hopefully we will be able to deciper his notes when he is brought in for questioning...
hp was then observed putting on a set of headphones and putting a cassette into his aiwa walkman... a broad smile appeared on hp's face... when i walked past hp, i heard some strange rumbling sounds coming out of his headphones...
i took a seat at the rear of the first car... as the d train moved slowly north, i became very drowsy...
i apparently fell asleep, and when i awoke at the 7th avenue station, it seemed that hp was no longer on the train....
test
i was just reading the nov/dec 1991 issue of electriclines, which arrived in the mail today about 9 years late...
seriously though... there was an article on the construction of the philly broad street subway... what interested me was a description of the 50 additional cars purchased from pressed steel car company in 1938... they had an auto-annunciator rollsign in the car that indicated the next stop and a clock which indicated the time... i remember riding those cars back 30 years ago, but i have just a vague memory of the rollsign annunciator... what fascinates me was that they had our r-142's high tech idea beat by 62 years... i do remember hearing a chime or warning signal when the doors closed...
what i am wondering is "how long did those rollsigns function?"... the board that the annunciator was mounted on had a real nice deco look... has any of these signs survived?... they look really neat (cool) ...
i was alerted to this show yesterday by my good friend doug "better late than never" diamond aka BMTman...
tonight on channel 13 at 10pm, there will be a 90 minute special documentary on the life and work of nikola tesla... this man's genius is beyond comprehension, although he is hardly known by most people... he developed the technology that made alternating current generation and transmission possible... but he thought up and developed many ideas that were far ahead of his times and even ours... yet he died a recluse in a new york city hotel, where in his later years he became devoted to the pigeons who came to his window sill...
i really cannot do justice to this man's life and ideas... check the program out, i think you will find yourself in awe of this man...
the title of a book about him written several years ago by margaret cheney was "tesla: man out of time"
he truly was not from this mortal plain...
http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/historic/nws/wea00954.htm
I would just like to know on when NYCT plans to start building this new free transfer between the G train & the train between the Court Sq & 45 Rd/CourtHouse Sq stations & when will this transfer point be completed & open.
When the new V & W trains are implementated next summer, does NYCT plan to change the roll on signs on the R32,38,40,42,44,46,68 & 68A cars, if so, when will they start doing this.
If NYCT doesn't change the roll on signs, are they going to use the W train as a diamond & will it show that on the subway map & in station signs.
WBZ Newsradio 1030 (Boston) reports that the ACELA Express did not run from DC to Boston this morning. The pantograph had some minor damage after yesterday's inaugural run, and required overnight repairs. Passengers were placed on a back-up "conventional" electric train this morning. However, this train's engine failed at Bridgeport, and another had to be brought down from New Haven to complete the trip to Boston. Passengers were treated to free food & beverage, had their fares refunded, and earned credit for a future trip.
The report said that the ACELA Express trainset has been repaired, and run to Boston (don't know if it ran light or in place of another train), so that the return trip leaving Boston/South Station at 5:12 this afternoon will depart as scheduled.
As we all know ACELA Express is set to replace MetroLiner. However ACELA Express and Metroliner are different services. AE is DCU to BOS and MetroLiner is NYP to DCU. I do believe that there is more service in the NY to DC market than NY to BOS. My question is will AE trains always run from DC to BOS or will some simply go from NY to DC? Will Amtrak have enough trainsts to provide current MetroLiner service all the way to Boston. Is there a market to warrent it? Is there track capacity to handle it? Will Amtrak cut ACELA Regional trains to Boston once AE becomes fully operational? Will ACELA Regional trains still have unreserved seats?
I think that if after all the AE trainsets have been delivered there is not enough of them to sustain the previous level of MetroLiner service from NY to DC they should run NY to DC ACELA MetroLiner trains. AM trains would be just like the old MetroLiners hauled by AEM's. They would still be faster than ACELA Regional, slower than ACELA Express, offer first and bussiness classes only, but be cheaper than AE. If Amtrak ras NY to DC only ACELA MetroLiner trains (either using the AE sets or AEM's) the ACELA Express can really run express between those 2 cities and either eliminate stops at Wilmington and Trenton or offer Skip-stop service with alternating AE trains. The ACELA Metroliner would pick up any slack. This would give the larger market more service and provide 4 levels of travel options:
ACELA Commuter: Cheap, slow, stopping train
ACELA Regional: Basic Amtrak service.
ACELA MetroLiner: Fast, comfey service stoping at all important locations in the NY-DC market.
ACELA Express: Hi-Speed service between majour metropolitan centres
Anybody who has traveled the NEC from NYC south or the NJTP from Exit 15E to 16E has seen the massive contruction project on the NEC. The new Secaucas Connection will allow Commuters on NJT Main and Bergen Line trains to change to a Penn Station bound train instead of riding all the way to Hoboken. This project has been draging on for about 4-5 years now ans it is nearing completion. My question: Is this a good project?
Pros:
-North Jersey Residents have direct access to NYC. No more ferries or PATH.
-Connection effectivly creats 2 controled sidings on the NEC for Amtrak and express trains to hop around NJT locals
-Erie Div. passengers won't need to whine for a Midtown-Direct service clogging the North River tubes even more
Cons:
-NJT trains have another stop to make thus delaying them further.
-More people trying to pack into already SRO corridor trains.
-Trains slowing down for the crossovers clog the NEC north and south of the connection.
-Station would restrict speed of Amtrak trains on previously 125mph track.
Mitigations:
-N/B trains already slow for Hackensack River Draw.
-Hi-speed turnouts might be used.
With the Manhattan Bridge re-opening, and the W lines creation, I want to know if the TA will send the N train back to the express track via the manhattan bridge.
I have just finished 3 possible T-shirt designs. They aren't really seperate designs, but each features different design elements. Please tell me what elements you like, don't like or would like changed.
PS: I know what is and isn't spelled correctly.
Today at around 4:15pm I was in the 23rd St/7th Ave station in Midtown I saw a R62 #2 of R62s flying uptown on the express track! Now I have seen a R62 consist of a #5 train, but seeing a R62 with a #2 in the front rollsign is something new to me. Also for the rest of the cars on that train, some have the #5 Bowling Green sign. Others have the #2 Flatbush Ave sign (perhaps borrowed from #5?). The rear-facing route sign is #5. Were there anything that prevented the R62s from being able to run on the #2 or #5 before?
There is a commercial being shoot in IND Hoyt-Schermerhorn station; with the following consist: "N": 2894-2895-2893-2892 2912-2913-2915-2914 looking TOTALLY out of place in the IND; some cars (the #2894 bunch) signed up as "8" = BROADWAY GOLD sign! The NYC Subway logo plaques are covered with these "8"s as well. Then they have wrapped the pillars in bright colours and hung up round globe lights in the closed platform ceiling. There were about 100 people there and a lot of equipment. The commercial is for Snickers (the candy bar). Lots of people (including myself) standing on the Brooklyn-bound platform to gawk and gape at the activity.
The "A", #5468 was unusally fast in the Fulton Express and reached a high speed of 46MPH.
wayne
Does anybody know how long it will take to rebuild the terminal and when they are going to start?
I recently saw on the P&W web site said that they have a weekly mixed train to Fresh Pond. Has anyone seen this? I would imagine it would be a little far from their center of gravity which is in Worcester MA.
-Dan
Ever since I started using the AvantGo service that downloads websites into my Palm OS device, I wanted a channel that had relevant NY rail news. I just downloaded a channel called PalmInfocenter.com which is message board, but with a different form than that SubTalk. In it, objective news is posted and users leave responses. Every time, I HotSync my Palm, the information is updated without my computer actually going to the site. I think it would be a good idea for Subtalk to have a small section for news that is small enough (under 100k text-only) so that AvantGo users can access up-to-date rail news.
learn more at www.avantgo.com
-Dan
Do you think the ABE area will have rail connections reestablished with New York or Philadelphia first?
In reading the BMT history I see that the Jamaica Ave extension of the Broadway-Brooklyn elevated opened on May 28th 1917. At this time the old City Line el terminal was closed.
Does this mean that the original Cypress Hills station was known as City Line Terminal?
I always thought of City Line as being the old Grant Ave station on the Fulton St el. This area is quite a distance south of Cypress Hills station!
Given that my DNS URL's weren't resolving on all computers I am attempting a simpler approach. Please keep in mind that the image links work for me.
I have just finished 3 possible T-shirt designs. They aren't really seperate designs, but each features different design elements. Please tell me what elements you like, don't like or would like changed.
PS: I know what is and isn't spelled correctly.
There's a punch box at Canal Street on the northbound H track. It is on the side opposite of the platform used for transfer between the 6/N/R/J/M/Z. I think I'm losing my eyesight or something though. The only letter I could read off the punch box was N all the way on the right. I think right next to it to the left was Q. The rest I couldn't read. Could someone privledged (one who is authorized to enter/cross the tracks) check it out? If not could someone with binoculars check it out? :)
Shawn.
A certain train crew on the M has an annoying practice with the doors. This happens at Myrtle-Broadway when the M waits on the center track. I'm not sure why this is done, other than it being cold outside. Either the C/R or the T/O will key open the two side doors in the middle of the train. When the southbound J train pulls in, they did not open the doors. Everyone was forced to walk to the middle of the M train. Once they got their line up, and we ready to leave they open and closed all the doors on the southbound side really quickly. I doubt that if there was anyone waiting on the platform for the doors to open that they would have gotten on. On top of this, many people were walking between cars when the train started moved and while it was rounding the curve on to Myrtle. I figure it is somewhat dangerous for the people who are moving in between cars.
The last time I remember this happening was maybe a week ago where they keyed open the side doors on the end of every car. Why bother with all that extra work? They also had problems with the doors after this. They opened and closed the doors on the southbound side, that didn't help. They open and closed the doors on the northbound side, that didn't help. Then finally when they opened and closed the doors again and it was over. This lead to a delay in leaving Myrtle-Broadway, which I'm pretty sure they had to explain when they got back to Metropolitan late.
Other crews do not do this, so I doubt there are specific orders to only key open certain doors.
Is this practice common on other lines? Is this even allowed?
Shawn.
USA Today 12/12/00 Page 13A Both print and Online Editions:
"Amtrak's Acela races into riders' favor; High-speed train wins rave reviews
"By Fred Bayles, USA TODAY
"BOSTON -- Amtrak began what it hopes will be a new era in high-speed rail service Monday with its first scheduled Acela train run between Washington and Boston. And while railroad officials were happy and train buffs excited, no one could match Damion Drab's enthusiasm.
"'I'm sold,' said the Philadelphia technology consultant, who picked the train over his usual flight to Boston. Sprawled comfortably in his seat with room for cellphone and laptop, Drab watched as the Connecticut shore zipped past. 'I'm sitting here with no stress, looking at the beach. Amazing.'"
Story continues . . .
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20001212/2907623s.htm
I was just visiting the "For Want of a Nail" page on this website, concerning the 81st. Street/8th Avenue station, which has various animal and cosmic themes. This reminded me that on the 46th Street station of the Queens Blvd.(R,G) line, there were until about one year ago a set of large circus animal figurines/statues(?). These, IIRC, were on the downtown platform in an alcove (where the station walls recede). These animals included at least two nearly life-sized lions, a tiger, and some other animals as well. The walls of the alcove were painted blue (primarily).
About a year ago, this display was placed behind gates and was later removed. Does anyone know what this display was about and why it was taken down? This was a rather distinctive display. Thanks a lot in advance to all.
-cordially,
turnstiles
I was once told that the N line in Astoria was once the IRT, or the "A" division MANY years ago. In other words the stations including, and north of Queensboro Plaza-Ditmars Blvd were once IRT property.
I was also told that until a few years ago, they still had IRT signals left over on the N line.
Any info?
So was today's windy weather messing up some of the subway and commuter rail lines? I didn't see any problems on the LIRR.
But I heard they closed the Manhattan Bridge for a time today due to the winds. Was this just for car/truck traffic, or were trains also not allowed due to the winds?
Caught it last night at 7:45 at Fulton Street. Everything seemed to be working properly except the clock. When I told the T/O about it, his answer was "I can't do anything about that". Is that correct or was he to lazy to fix it?
TA forces have begun removing track K-1 south of Atlantic Ave
about 10 days ago. Originally, this track was used by eastbound
Fulton el trains. Rail spikes are dated 1938, however, this track has
been out of regular service for over 44 years (since Fulton
service was eliminated in 1956).
Can someone tell me if Conrail uses _route_ signalling aspects or _speed_ signalling aspects around Boston?
Thanks,
Dave
I have a question for one of the resident TA employees, or anyone else who may know the answer..
What are the reasons/guidlines for when a train will or will not wait for the passengers to make transfers across a platform? I live in Brooklyn and regularly make transfers at Dekalb and Nevins, and often get incredibly pissed off at the system. Sometimes a train will wait for minutes for the next train to pull up and allow the passengers to transfer, sometimes it seems like they're waiting, and then they close the doors right at the last second! Couldn't they just wait an extra few seconds for people to make the transfer? At first I thought it was a rush hour/night thing. Why wait when there's another train right behind? But I'll share this quick antecode with all of you:
It's 1:30 am.. I'm on the 2 train and we pull up to Nevins Street. We're sitting at the station for what seemed like forever..and the passengers are getting impatient. I think to myself, "oh, we must be wating for a 4 train to pull up". And sure enough, after about 10 minutes, the 4 train comes in to the station. Just as the train was screeching to a stop, our train's doors closed and we left! - much to the dismay of the transfering 4 passengers!
I'm just dying to know if there is any rhyme or reason to these occruances, or if it's just the operators screwing with us? Anyone got any answers??
Todays installment of this crossposted e-mail novella is quite amusing and will teach you some of the better parts of Railroad Nicknames and Lingo. Make sure you all read the last chapter I posted about how you become an engineer at http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=175643
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Today we learn, What's in a name, Part 1.
Everything and everybody has a name. They have to or otherwise we won't know what to call them. Some people don't fit their names while others do. Some names don't fit what they are describing while other names hit the nail right on the head. When you hear "Thurston Howell III", you think of some snobby, rich, debutante type. When you hear "The Big Ragu", either Carmine Ragusa, the character from Laverne and Shirley, or some big powerful man of Italian heritage
in a fedora who operates an "olive oil importing" business comes to mind. Now before any of you start screaming of political correctness, remember; I am of Italian and Sicilian heritage so I can poke fun at my own ethnic background all I want. And I do so quite often. We are all allowed and I believe at some point, required to laugh at our own heritage and ethnic culture. Its what makes us interesting. It is also something that draws us closer together in a bizarre sort of
way.
Enough of this philosophical stuff and on with the focus of this column. I was never any good at philosophy anyway.
Much of the following is not politically correct. We on the railroad don't seem to mind though.
Many of us in the rail industry have nicknames of some sort or another. I'm sure this practice may apply in other professions as well, but it seems far more common on the railroad than say, in the medical industry. I mean after all, have you ever heard of a physician referred to by his or her cronies as Stinky, Lefty or Cookie? Most likely not. And myself, I am not really certain I would want to operated on by a surgeon known as Slippery, get a shot from a nurse named Knuckles, buy a new car from a guy called Shifty, or attend church services celebrated by a priest named Good Time. However, I have railroaded with people over the years adorned with these very nicknames and not thought twice about it.
Nicknames come about from various sources such as physical traits or
characteristics; bald guys referred to as Curly, huge football player or wrestler types called Tiny, the fellow with a large nose known as Sniff, the fellow with red hair called, what else, Red, a guy with a rather big posterior referred to as Bubble Ass or, on the radio, Bubble Butt, the guy with the perennially bad haircut called Zipperhead, the guy with size 16 work boots known as Shoes, or the
tall and almost deathly thin guy called Stretch or Slim. Then there's Sherman for the guy who looked like the grown up version of the cartoon character who appeared with Mr Peabody, Elvis for the three different guys who looked like Elvis in various stages of the King of Rock and Roll's life; young Elvis, middle aged Elvis and Elvis had he lived into his late 50's, Plug for the short stocky guy, Porky for the really heavy short guy.
Some nicknames come from things you did in the performance of your duties such as, a screw up you committed, an action you did or didn't take, how you operate a locomotive or train. A guy who punched another guy when he had taken about enough of his BS became known as Sluggo. A guy who had a several episodes of running into things became known as Crash, the guy who seemed to be in trouble all the time but always managed to get out from under it was Lucky. Wild Bill was a crazy man who took wild chances on the job. Then there was the Great One who I always told had the "aura" of Greatness, Whiplash who's train handling techniques could easily give you that ailment,
One Notch who didn't seem to know that the throttle could go higher than Run 1, the Jammer for the guy who thought that every train should be stopped using only engine brakes, which are sometimes referred to as the jammer, Slack Action for the guy who's train handling techniques required that all the slack be constantly and rapidly changed whenever he did anything thus requiring the tail end crew to have to strap themselves into the seats, High Wheeler and Speed Racer for the guys that could "run the wheels off of them" so to speak. There was One Way who only worked one way and then would mark off sick at the other end of the road. Dr Degenerate was the guy who was all into weird, explicit sex photos.
Other names came from mannerisms, behavior or things you said or did, or how you said it. I have worked with the Clown Prince who was rather goofy, well, make that really goofy, the King; the guy who thought everybody was far less intelligent than he and also far inferior in their railroading abilities, the Queen; (given to several different female clerks) owing to their domineering and rather witchy attitudes, the Clip; the guy that was always hitting somebody up for
a dollar, Oddmoe; self explanatory, Yosemite Sam; the guy who acted and looked like him, Otis; like the drunk on Andy Griffith, Dink (no clue where this one came from), Dinger; who liked to work 12 hours and, as we referred to it when you made it all, ringing the bell , Chico; the girl crazy one, Biff; who used that word whenever describing the sound made when hitting someone or something, Smokey; who smoked cigars like a power plant burns coal, Pup; with a face
like a puppy, Crazy Eddie; another self explanatory one, Nutty; who was about half nuts but a riot to work with, Cabbie; who was afraid he would wind up being a cab driver if he didn't pass the rules test, the Hippie; for obvious reasons, the Harker; had something to do with the way he played cards, Red Block; for a Dispatcher who never had you lined up even when you were the only train for 50 miles, Cement Head; a Dispatcher who had a thick skull, also an Engineer with
the same physical trait, Hickory Head; the hard headed and stubborn one who once got hit in the head with a piece of coke that fell out of a car and it broke but didn't injure him, Unc or Uncle; the guy who's nephew also worked there, the Diamond Man; who thought he was the big time high roller, Footie; who, well, we won't get into that one, Buckets; who cried buckets of tears when he thought he was setting the shaft, Johnny No Cash; the guy who thought he could sing
(but couldn't) and also never had any money, Paddlefoot; yet another no clue, Preacher; for the very convicted religious guy, Deacon; another very religious guy, Jethro; the guy that was like Jethro on the Beverly Hillbillies, he was always going to quit to go and do something else like be a movie star or a double naught spy or something, Papa Smurf; who was a Patriarch of sorts, Flash; no
clue, Mammy; the guy who's wild step son worked there as well, Elmo; who's real name was Elmer, and he was a very short and stout man who just looked like an Elmo, Mumbles for a guy who's lips and mouth didn't move when he talked, Peaches; no clue here, but everybody called him that even when he made Trainmaster, Dough Boy was the guy who looked like the Pillsbury Dough Boy all grown up. The Shell Answer Man was the Switchman who knew everything about everything; just ask him. He was also called Mr Know It All. Uncle Fester was a Conductor who looked just like the Addams Family character only not as
heavy. Aches and Pains was the Conductor that was always suffering from some sort of malady. Boss Hog resembled and acted sort of like the character on that TV show Dukes of Hazzard. Conrail was called that as he came from there and would always tell us about how they did things on Conrail. His first two initials were also CR.
And still other names were a play on first or last names. Tuch (rhymes with hootch) is a play on my last name Santucci pronounced, San TEW chee. I have been called Tuch just about as long as I can remember. When I played ball, I got dubbed Sawbones as I got hurt in a game and commented that I had better go and see the Sawbones. It evolved to Bones and I spelled it Bonz like the dog biscuits. Even had it on my license plates. It never caught on at the railroad
though. There are still a few folks that call me that. I've also been called other things, but we won't get into those as they were away from the railroad so they don't count here. And besides, what a few females called me after relationships failed don't normally count as nicknames anyway. Do they?
Other nameplays; substituting the word horse for the Han in Hancock, and he was proud of that nickname, Sandy, Rowbar, Crowbar, Bubbles, Woodie, Bare Ass (another one you couldn't say on the radio), Wolfman, Argy, Druggie, Weenie, Hoser, Whizzer, Whizzo, Whiskey, King Lear, Barf, Gas Bag, Gas Pipe, Pig Nuts, Schmaltzie, Moon Mullens, Moon Pie, Izzy who's last name is Gay, Ima who's last name is Broad, Herpies, Carp, Fish, Hey Harry, Marsha Babe, Sea Horse, and his son, Sea Pony who later evolved to just Pony, Moose, Beetle Bailey, Scooter, Dickie Bird, Sleepin' Sam, Gutless, Wooyang, The Duke whose last name was Earl. He was Mammy's wild step child.
Ethnic or cultural heritage; Dutch, Pete the Greek, Scotty, Dago Joe, the Mad Romanian, the Polish Prince and the Italian Stallion.
From the initials of several Dispatchers and Operators; BGH was Billy Goat Head who was rather strong willed, BRN who was Better Ring Now or Be Reminded Normally as you always had to call him for a signal even if you were the only train on the entire district, TCR was Trains Cannot Run as he was never at his desk to answer the radio, MLD for Marcy Loves Delays as she always seemed to have you hand operate dual control switches for they never seemed to work in power, but only for her. JLB was John Loves Bitching as he was always screaming on the radio "I'M BUSY!!! when somebody was calling him
and he was busy or annoyed, which was pretty much most of the time.
Several Officials over the years have also been dubbed with names owing in part, to their attitudes or performances. Mighty Fine were the first two initials of a Superintendent, the Rat; which is self explanatory, Mush Mouth was a Trainmaster who talked sh*t and did so out of the side of his mouth, Cooter for a guy that came up with idiotic interpretations of the rules in order to instruct you to ciolate them so as to expedite a move, The Neck for the Trainmaster who was such a nervous wreck that his nerves would tighten up in his neck and his head would twist to one side and just stay there, Witchcraft was a play on this Trainmaster's last name, Ding Dong for Trainmaster Bell, The Seal for the General Car Foreman whose laugh sounded just like a seal, Horny was a play on this Mechanical Foreman's last name, Bobby K the Road Foreman who had a very long Polish last name that nobody could pronounce, The Social Director
for the Superintendent that spent most of the time trying to portray an image, led all tour groups around the property and nobody seemed to have a clue as to exactly what he actually did, if anything. The Extra Testicle was a play on this ranking officer's initials. He seemed to have an extra one based upon the outlandish ideas he came up with and attempted to implement (and they almost always crashed and burned). Even officials from other railroads thought he was a little off. Trainmaster Opie was Andy the Superintendent's sidekick. Baby Huey was this big lummox type that was as dumb as he was big. Twice he wrecked the Super's car owing to his own stupidity. Unlike in the movies, cars do not pass right through cable gates unscathed. After the second incident and losing the keys a couple of times, he was forbidden to ever drive any company cars again.
On mishaps; we call derailing various names based upon the severity. A
simple derailment that had any, most or all wheels off is known as "on the ground" or "in the mud". A more serious derailment might be referred to "as in the ditch". I know of a couple that were dubbed "in the street" as that is where some of the cars wound up when all was said and done and everything finally came to a stop. When a car clips the corner of another car it is dubbed "cornering" or a "corner job". A head on collision is referred to as a "cornfield meet". A major derailment is called a "crash and burn". A tank car that derails, turns over and begins to leak has "popped its top".
In describing failed motive power, there is "shot craps, gave up the ghost, coughed up a lung, went down for the count, opted for early retirement, bought the farm, choked, puked or barfed". Many of us always attempt to conjure up the most colorful or outlandish sounding descriptions we can come up with.
In Part 2 we will look at Railroad names and slogans.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Anyone know anything about the abandoned Franklin Square station on what is now the Patco line near the Ben Franklin Bridge?
Any and all tech info needed for preparation for car inspectors position/exam, please help!!.
For the last few months, I have noticed alot of work equipment at night and sometimes during the daytime, coming past my apartmemt in Bayside, Queens. I see from my window late at night a variety of work trains coming by, by mostly being pulled by diesel locomotives. Is there a reason for the activity?...I don't recall hearing of work being done on the Port Washington recently.
OK, Here are the latest subway bullets:
Here's how to get your own set of subway bullets, with such readings as , , , and even one for a CC-diamond that isn't on the site at this point.
Click on this link.
I was rummaging through the archives, and I came upon this post I made back in May. I don't remember anyone repliying to it, so I might as well ask it again.
What exactly is a B&O Switch? I've seen signs that read that all along the line. What is it?
What will the terminals be for the following lines: B,D,F,N,Q,V,W,R,M after the Manhattan and Coney Island Rebulids are completed?
Alot of D train riders are worried that after both are done that the D will be cut back to Brighton Beach and the Q will go to Coney Island. So what lines will be affected and changes after the lines are complete. This is so amazing I have never seen a change like this ever I am excited I have only seen such changes on the 200 subway maps I have...yes 200+ subway maps.
Christopher Rivera
I've heard a lot about the existence of a Roosevelt Avenue IND station above the existing station, that was supposed to be the terminal of a proposed IND Rockaway line that was never built. Its listed on Joe Brennan's roster of abandoned stations, but I have never been able to find it.
Has anyone here ever seen it or see any photos of it?
Thanks.
I've been rummaging through the archives again. Here's my latest find:
This past spring, FDNY posted some readings on the R44/46 e-signs. This lasted from 11 May to 17 May 2000. Previous messages on the thread indicated almost 1100 different readings.
To some, rollsigns provide a mystery to those interested. I recently solved a "mystery" with the Redbird rollsigns.
I also think of e-signs (like those on the R44's and R46's) as providing an equal, perhaps a greater, amount of mystery. Rollsigns can limit themselves only to their container. The e-sign is like a rollsign, except it has a bigger container.
What was posted was a little over 200, about 18% of all of them.
Why was it stopped?
Why not continue it now?
To help recap, here's what was posted as pages 1 through 8, in FDNY's reckoning, all in a nice, neat table.
E
JAMAICA CENTER
QUEENS LOCAL
E
WORLD TRADE CTR
8 AV LOCAL
F
TO 179 ST ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
QUEENS LOCAL
E
JAMAICA CENTER
QUEENS EXPRESSS
B
TO 21 ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
B
BWAY - LAFAYETTE
F
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV/CULVER LOCAL
F
TO 179 ST /QUEENS
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
F
TO KINGS HIGHWAY
6 AV/CULVER LCL
R
TO 179 ST /QUEENS
VIA 6 AV
Q
BWAY -LAFAYETTE
R
TO 95 ST /BKLYN
SPECIAL
F
TO 179 ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
QUEENS EXPRESS
F
TO 47-50 /6 AV
6 AV LOCAL
Q
TO 21 ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
SHUTTLE
G
TO SMITH-9 STS
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
TO CHURCH AV
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
TO COURT SQUARE
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
TO QUEENS PLAZA
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
71/CONTINENTAL
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
A
TO 207 ST/MANHTN
8 AV EXPRESS
A
TO 207 ST/MANHTN
8 AV LOCAL
A
TO 168 ST/MANHTN
8 AV EXPRESS
A
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
8 AV/FULTON EXP
R
TO 95 ST/BKLYN
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
TO WHITEHALL ST
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
TO CANAL ST
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
TO 34 ST/6 AV
VIA 6 AV
A
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
8 AV EXPRESS
FULTON ST LOCAL
A
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
8 AV/FULTON LCL
R
TO 36 ST/BKLYN
SHUTTLE
A
TO LEFFERTS BLVD
8 AV/FULTON EXP
A
TO LEFFERTS BLVD
8 AV EXPRESS
FULTON ST LOCAL
R
TO 179 ST/QUEENS
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
71/CONTINENTAL
BROADWAY LOCAL
A
TO LEFFERTS BLVD
8 AV/FULTON LCL
C
TO BEDFORD PARK
8 AV LOCAL
C
TO 145 ST /MANHTN
8 AV LOCAL
C
TO ROCKAWAY PK
8 AV/FULTON LCL
C
TO EUCLID AV
8 AV/FULTON LCL
C
WORLD TRADE CTR
8 AV LOCAL
H
TO EUCLID AV
VIA FAR ROCKAWAY
H
TO BROAD CHANNEL
SHUTTLE
H
TO EUCLID AV
SHUTTLE
H
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
VIA ROCKAWAY PK
H
TO ROCKAWAY PK
LISTEN FOR
ANNOUNCEMENT
NOT IN SERVICE
LAST STOP
B
TO 168 ST /MANHTN
6 AV EXPRESS
CENT PK W.LOCAL
B
TO 21 ST/QUEENS
6 AV EXPRESS
B
TO 36 /BKLYN
SHUTTLE
B
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
WEST END EXP
B
TO CONEY ISLAND
N
TO DITMARS BLVD
BROADWAY EXP
N
TO DITMARS BLVD
4 AV EXPRESS
BROADWAY LOCAL
N
TO DITMARS BLVD
4 AV LOCAL
BROADWAY EXP
N
TO DITMARS BLVD
BROADWAY LOCAL
N
TO KINGS HIGHWY
BROADWAY EXP
SEA BEACH EXP
N
TO CONEY ISLAND
BROADWAY EXP
SEA BEACH LOCAL
N
TO CONEY ISLAND
BROADWAY LOCAL
SEA BEACH EXP
N
TO CONEY ISLAND
BROADWAY LOCAL
SEA BEACH LOCAL
D
TO 205 ST /BRONX
6 AV EXPRESS
CONCOURSE EXP
D
TO 205 ST/BRONX
6 AV EXPRESS
CONCOURSE LOCAL
D
TO BEDFORD PARK
6 AV EXPRESS
CONCOURSE LOCAL
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
CONCOURSE LOCAL
Q
TO BRIGHTON BCH
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON LOCAL
Q
TO 21 ST/QUEENS
6 AV EXPRESS
S
TO FRANKLIN AV
S
TO PROSPECT PK
E
E
JAMAICA CENTER
VIA 6 AV
E
JAMAICA CENTER
N
TO KINGS HIGHWY
BROADWAY LOCAL
SEA BEACH LOCAL
F
JAMIACA CENTER
QUEENS EXPRESS
F
JAMAICA CENTER
QUEENS LOCAL
F
JAMAICA CENTER
VIA 8 AV
G
JAMAICA CENTER
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
N
JAMAIA CENTER
BROADWAY EXP
N
JAMAICA CENTER
VIA 6 AV
N
JAMAICA CENTER
VIA BROADWAY
R
JAMIACA CENTER
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
JAMAICA CENTER
VIA 6 AV
S
JAMAICA CENTER
SHUTTLE
S
TO UNION TPKE
SHUTTLE
V
JAMIACA CENTER
VIA 6 AV
W
JAMAICA CENTER
VIA BROADWAY
JAMAICA CENTER
SUTPHIN / ARCHER
JAMAICA /VN WYCK
B
TO DITMARS BLVD
VIA BROADWAY
B
QUEENSBORO PLZ
VIA BROADWAY
D
TO DITMARS BLVD
VIA BROADWAY
D
QUEENSBORO PLZ
VIA BROADWAY
N
N
TO DITMARS BVLD
BROADWAY LOCAL
VIA BRIDGE
N
TO DITMARS BLVD
N
QUEENSBORO PLZ
N
QUEENSBORO PLZ
BROADWAY EXP
N
QUEENSBORO PLZ
BROADWAY LOCAL
Q
TO DITMARS BLVD
VIA BROADWAY
Q
QUEENSBORO PLZ
VIA BROADWAY
R
TO DITMARS BLVD
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
QUEENSBORO PLZ
BROADWAY LOCAL
S
TO DITMARS BLVD
S
QUEENSBORO PLZ
SHUTTLE
T
TO DITMARS BVLD
VIA BROADWAY
T
QUEENSBORO PLZ
VIA BROADWAY
Q
TO DITMARS BLVD
VIA BROADWAY
Q
QUEENSBORO PLZ
VIA BROADWAY
TO DITMARS BLVD
TO ASTORIA BLVD
TO 30 AV/QUEENS
TO BROADWAY/QNS
TO 36 AV/QUEENS
TO 39 AV/QUEENS
QUEENSBORO PLZ
A
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA 6 AV
BRIGHTON EXP
A
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA 6 AV
BRIGHTON LOCAL
B
TO BRIGHTON BCH
6 AV LINE
VIA BRIGHTON
B
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA BROADWAY
VIA BRIGHTON
B
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV LINE
VIA BRIGHTON
B
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV VIA
CULVER
G
HOYT - SCHERMERHN
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
D
TO DEKALB AV
D
TO ATLANTIC AV
D
TO PROSPECT PK
D
TO KINGS HIGHWY
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON LINE
D
TO BRIGHTON BCH
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON EXP
D
TO BRIGHTON BCH
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON LOCAL
D
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON EXP
D
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA BROADWAY
BRIHTON LOCAL
D
TO BRIGHTON BCH
SHUTTLE
D
TO W 8 ST/BKLYN
SHUTTLE
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON EXP
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
VIA CULVER
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
VIA SEA BEACH
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
VIA WEST END
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON EXP
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON LOCAL
D
TO COENY ISLAND
6 AV VIA ESSEX
VIA NASSAU ST
F
TO BRIGHTON BCH
6 AV LOCAL
VIA BRIGHTON
M
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA BRIGHTON
M
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA BRIGHTON
N
TO BRIGHTON BCH
BROADWAY LINE
VIA BRIGHTON
N
TO CONEY ISLAND
BROADWAY LINE
VIA BRIGHTON
G
TO BERGEN ST
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
Q
TO DEKALB AV
Q
TO ATLANTIC AV
Q
TO PROSPECT PK
Q
TO BRIGHTON BCH
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON LOCAL
Q
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON EXP
Q
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON LOCAL
Q
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON EXP
Q
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON LOCAL
Q
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON EXP
Q
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON LOCAL
S
TO ATLANTIC AV
SHUTTLE
S
TO PROSPECT PK
SHUTTLE
S
TO KINGS HIGHWY
SHUTTLE
S
TO BRIGHTON BCH
SHUTTLE
S
TO W 8 ST / BKLYN
SHUTTLE
S
TO CONEY ISLAND
SHUTTLE
V
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA 6 AV
BRIGHTON EXP
V
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA 6 AV
BRIGHTON LOCAL
W
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA BROADWAY
BIRGHTON EXP
W
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON LOCAL
TO DEKALB AV
TO ATLANTIC AV
TO 7 AV /BKLYN
BRIGHTON LINE
TO PROSPECT PK
TO PARKSIDE AV
TO CHURCH AV
BRIGHTON LINE
TO BEVERLY RD
TO CORTELYOU RD
TO NEWKIRK AV
TO AVENUE H
TO AVENUE J
TO AVENUE M
TO KINGS HIGHWAY
BRIGHTON LINE
TO AVENUE U
BRIGHTON LINE
TO NECK ROAD
TO SHEEPSHEAD
TO BRIGHTON BCH
TO OCEAN PKWY
TO W 8 ST/BKLN
BRIGHTON LINE
TO W 8 ST/BKLYN
TO CONEY ISLAND
BRIGHTON LINE
TO CONEY ISLAND
B
TO 57 ST/ 7 AV
VIA BROADWAY
B
TO 57 ST/7 AV
SHUTTLE
D
TO 57 ST/7 AV
VIA BROADWAY
E
TO 34 ST/BWAY
VIA BROADWAY
E
TO CANAL ST
VIA BROADWAY
E
TO WHITEHALL ST
VIA BROADWAY
N
TO LEX AV/60 ST
N
TO 57 ST/7 AV
BROADWAY EXP
N
TO 57 ST / 7 AV
4 AV EXPRESS
BROADWAY LOCAL
N
TO 57 ST/7 AV
4 AV LOCAL
BROADWAY EXP
N
TO 57 ST / 7 AV
BROADWAY LOCAL
Of course, the abandoned 42nd street(IND)location would be great. And those of you who shoot it down because the 7 train is going to run through there must realize that we would get a minimun of 10 years out of the 42nd street location before anything actually happens with the 7 expansion.
Chambers street on the M/J/Z lines would be great as well. Eliminate M service to Chambers during the day to begin with. Run M to Broad instead, for the sake of creating the museum.
Then, you can place trains on both middle tracks, while utilizing the middle platform as well. Maybe, you can even you the current N/B platform for additional space, and reopen the abandoned N/B platform for passenger use. This gives you two full-size platforms, and two tracks for old trains to sit on.
All those posts about how the V train is not going to work are not acurate.
For one, passengers from brooklyn DO NOT use the 51st./Lex station to transfer to the 6. They simply get off at Jay, and take the A/C to B'way/Nassau for the 4/5. Some passengers do get off at that stop, but xferring to the V ast 2nd av will not be a problem, as it will be similar to the G train at Smith-9th.
As for the Queens side of the equation, it will suffer, because people won't be able to use the new tunnel between Roosevelt/Queens plaza. However, they likely won't miss anything, as a lot of people get off at at 51st and lex in this direction.
OK, I took that horrible 2 hr F train ride to Brooklyn last Saturday and took a weird test. Assuming I am normal enough, pass the drug test, what is next?
What kind of hours and assignments to you get right out of school?
Unheated Rockaway shuttles in the winter and unairconditioned yard work in the summers? Will they do something stupid and put me on a rush hour 1 train my first day out? Or will my commute get worse by putting me on the SIRT?
What is the 40 hr school like? How big is a typical class? Are you really short of people now? I am trying to figure out how long it will take to hit my list number (260's).
Recently while riding this line,I was riding northbound at around 7:45 pm, I noticed that several Dyre Avenue southbound trains were heading towards Newlots Avenue.Do these trains go out to New Lots and return, or they go into the Livonia Yard? My train was coming from Flatbush Avenue.
http://www.ushistory.org/philadelphia/special/railroad.htm
No pictures, but describes the exact route of all the lines, as well as a timeline of the companies that built each line. Lots of info!
Amidst all this Manhattan bridge commotion, the V line has been over looked. So, I have a question:
What equipment will be used on the V?
With the G running to court square, it will be 4 car R-46 trains. But what about the V? The 13 A-A and 1 A-B unit seem to have no home. Because of this, I think that the V will be 6 car R-46 trains. But if anyone has any info, please inform me.
Thanks
I'd like to see the Broad/Ridge Spur continue through the now-PATCO controlled Locust St. subway, extend West a block to Rittenhouse Square at 19th St., then turn North towards Logan Circle. An interchange station would be built with the MFL at 19th and Market (it always irked me that stations are every 3 blocks East of Broad, but there are none for 15 blocks West of Broad); then run under the Parkway (or Pennsylvania Ave.) past the Art Museum and maybe continue across the river to the Zoo and run on the surface on the North side of Parkside Ave. Just a fantasy. What do you think?
I'm giving a little quiz on BusTalk called the "Brooklyn/Staten Island bus quiz".
The FIRST person to get all 10 questions right will win both items FREE!:
1) A brand new, never used "Do Not Hold Doors" subway sticker.
AND
2) A brand new 2000 London Underground subway map.
Try it over on BusTalk. You've got nothing to lose!
it slightly different by the electric map and computer. electric map is different by looks. stops light up brighter and direction arrows are white printed. they still light up but you can only see it in the dark. the computer is the same but slightly modified on software for reliability purposes.(that part is just rumor, so far, someone gave me news on that part) overall its just the same as the others. thought i'd let u know if ur interested.
I am so glad to be back on this great website. MY ISP terminated sunday and it terminated my email. Then I decided with my new email I wanna new handle. My old handle was F TRAIN. I now am returning as
E To JAMAICA CENTER. I like this handle better, because whenever I take the subway, I live half an hour by bus from Parsons Archer. And I have basically grown up with the E, and 95% of the time Whenever I railfan, it mostly ends with the E.
See u layta.
I just had a very nice phone conversation with Ed. He is completely moved back to Livingston, Montana, and is in the process of unpacking. I told him of the warm wishes sent by a number of the SubTalkers, he really misses everyone, and not being able to participate here. He says that he may surprise us soon by getting back to this site.
His son in Livingston has a computer, and he is going to try to get back to SubTalk in the near future, at least for short periods of time. Let's hope he will be able to join us soon.
My brother-in-law is marrying a woman who has a daughter from a prior marriage. She is 17 years old, quite pretty, and a high school senior, and is now faced with hanging out with her new "family," an awkward situation at a awkward age. She seems to be handling it well.
Since our oldest girl is 8 years old, I wasn't sure what to buy a teen for a Christmas present. I saw her mom over the weekend, and she said that the teen likes to wear baggy clothes, mostly black, like her friends. I naturally thought of a black subway t-shirt from the Transit Museum store at Grand Central, with a line marking on it.
I was going to go, but my wife was in Midtown for a meeting, so she offered to pick it up for me. But she called later and said that she had picked up a t-shirt that said "No Exit," thinking that might be "cool" for a teen. It cost $21 bucks.
I was very disappointed. My first thought was that you can pick up a black t-shirt that says "No Exit" anywhere -- my wife is obviously unfamiliar with the play, and tendency for people who wear black to pretend they are "existentialists" without knowing what that means. So much for the subway idea. But we are married, so I said "yes dear."
Then I actually looked at the t-shirt. It actually says "No Entry." I imagined my future niece opening this up at Christmas in front of my in-laws, a family of cruel jokesters. I pondered the odds of a 17 year old girl actually wearing that t-shirt to high school.
I'm going tomarrow to exchange it for t-shirt with an "F" train logo on it. Never send a spouse to do a subway buff's job.
Hi All,
I wouldn't normally announce the addition of one new photo here but we have our first picture of the Kawasaki R-143, courtesy Nathan Comens. Enjoy!!!
Whenever I take the Q28 along Crocheron ave, just after it turns off Northern Blvd, there appears to be two red lights at the street dead ends (where the Port Washington branch of LIRR runs).
Why are they there and what are they used for?
Imagine for a moment, that New York City had no subway system. The only surface transit would be the current system of local, limited, and express buses, and the only rail transit would be PATH, the LIRR, MNRR, and SIRT(OA). The ferries would be the same
But imagine that - no subways. Can you imagine a trip from the Upper West Side to Kennedy Airport, for example?
M104 bus to 42nd/Madison
Q32 to Queensboro Plaza
Q60 to Union Turnpike
Q10 to Kennedy Airport
That's like a half-day trip!
I heard that Los Angeles is basically a New York less the subway.
Imagine that . . .
I understand that Mike (aka SubBus) will be going for Conductor orientation sometime this morning.
I wish him well as I'm sure alot of us here, so that we'll see him "on the road" someday soon, sticking his head out the CR's position and alerting us to "watch the closing doors" (hopefully, he'll give us time to pull in our coattails and/or shopping bags...;-)
Anyhow: Mike -- best of luck and let us know how "boot camp" goes.
BMTman
from the Times-->>
Roger Toussaint,
44, a leader of the
union's upstart New
Directions faction,
won 12,465 or 60.5
percent of the votes <<
less than 30 words
This will be interesting no doubt
If the Mta was to introduce music in trains during the ride, what would be your favorite band, artist or song?
I'm just thinking of all the bands that I would love to hear while riding the system.
Dave Matthews, Rush, Live, Tragically Hip, Van Halen, Doors "Riders on the Storm", could be cool. Cream, The Who, Pearl Jam. Yeah Baby...
What do you think?
This will be veeeerrry interesting,
NEW DIRECTIONS TAKES OVER
Peace,
ANDEE
He should of gotten life with no parole,
SHOVER GETS 25 YEARS
Peace,
ANDEE
Four-year-old fell between train and platform at Times Square shuttle; story in Daily News.
Investigation of 3 year olds death continues,
NY1 UPDATE
Peace,
ANDEE
Heard on WRTI (Temple University Public Radio) traffic and transit report at 6:28 this morning: R3 West Trenton Line has no service available to West Trenton, Yardley, Woodbourne, and Langhorne Stations due to a CSX freight train derailment. Commuters should seek alternate transportation by driving to the R7 Cornwell Heights Station accessible at I-95 South.
Subsequently heard Rossini's William Tell Overture.
Burlington County is applying for state funding to assist in establishing shuttle bus service to the under-construction Trenton-Camden light rail line. Story in Trenton Times.
In preparation for this afternoon's ACELA EXPRESS trip to NYC, I drove this morning to the Route 128 station in a nasty snow storm. My strategy was to park there, take the MBTA in to Boston for work, return to Route 128 this afternoon and pick up my suitcase from my car -- then board the AE. The usual 30 minute drive to the station took over 60 mintues (leaving my house at 5:30 am). I got to Route 128 station in time for MBTA #902 (6:44am), which never came. Then #802 (6:58am) never came. Finally, #904 came at 7:16. The engineer told me that he was #902 running on #904's schedule. A stuck switch at Canton Junction had all trains in both directions stacked up; he was surprised they let him through. [As of this writing, 8:40am, my colleague who takes #802 from Providence is still not in the office, over an hour late.]
When I got to South Station, I noted on the Tote Board that the northbound AE is running an hour and 45 minutes late this morning. Does anyone know if there are systematic problems on the NEC between WAS and NYP this morning?
I found a fairly decent interactive graphic describing the Acela Express trainset on the Washington Post website. It's not terribly technical, but might be informative to those who don't know a transformer from a pantograph. (Although I could look at it at home, my !@#$%^&* work PC isn't cooperating. I think our firewall is set up to reject such "flash" graphics and video.) Anyway, those of you still in the land of the free can click
Inside Acela.
I am coming to Boston and a few weeks and have two questions.
1. Is South Station outdoors? I would like to get a good picture of the Acela Express trainset upon alighting. New York Penn is in a tunnel and I don't want the train leaving without me.
2. Does the Red T Line have a railfan window? I saw a picture on the line by line section and it appeared it didn't.
Thanks, in advance.
Still can't figure this one out ...
I took the LIRR to Flatbush Avenue this morning, as I do from time to time, and got a Bronx-bound 2 at Atlantic at around 8:30. When we got to Wall Street, the train remained stopped with the doors open for several minutes. Finally, the conductor announced that we were being held because of a sick passenger on our train. Terrific. As it didn't look like we'd be going anywhere for a while, I went out onto the platform to wait. A few cars back, in the conductor's car for that matter, a young woman was lying on the bench seats while another woman fanned her with a large envelope. All the other passengers were exiting that car at the conductor's direction. He closed its doors as soon as the last ones left.
I was standing on the platform, trying to figure out whether I should walk to the 1/9 at Rector or Cortlandt, when all of a sudden the conductor closed the doors to the other cars. Many passengers, me included, were left behind on the platform. The train pulled out, and I could see the sick passenger still lying down and being fanned off by the other rider. I got on the next train and rode two stops to Chambers without delay.
While I'm certainly not complaining, I am quite surprised by this turn of events. Why would the conductor evacuate a car due to a sick passenger, but then leave without waiting for EMS to arrive?
This
is
a
test
This is a test
this
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a
test
Mr Bob Killey, who is now running the London Underground, has been creditted in some newspapers as having "saved" the New York Subway. Is this true ? If so what did he do ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Does anyone know where one can buy 'o' scale brass trolley models in Korea ? as my son will be stationed there next year in the army,he'd like to buy the models there and send them home,does anyone know if a duty will be put on the models and if so how much, also how much would one pay for a brass 'o'scale model in Korea ? anyone know ? thanks.
In the NYCSUBWAY.org website, there is an article on the R-30 fan trip that took the visitors to the lower level of the BMT 9th Avenue station. The text indicates that this station posed as "Times Square" in the film "Crocodile Dundee."
That is incorrect. I just saw that movie again and the station was not called Times Square, but 59th Street. I e-mailed this correction in to the Webmaster but the error remains.
Finally I found a scanner to scan my 4x6 photos. Since these photos are generated from my slides, the resolutions are not as well as scanning directly from sildes.
AEM-7AC 901 and 918 entering New Carrollton, MD on 9/21/00
Acela Express inaugural run through Landover, MD on 11/16/00
HHP-8 654 running through Chase, MD on 11/22/00
My only regret about the Acela Express photo is that it was cloudy.
Chaohwa
Well I made it in the pouring rain. There were about 30 people there. For the conductors position, there were about 10 people. After reviewing the paper work, and going to SS office, I took the urine test. The whole process took about 3 hours. The class itself will start on Jan 2. So I should be hearing from TA within the next few days.
Railfan:
1. Board L train#4620 @ Livonia. Where I was sitting had the heater right under me. Leaky windows and the storm door flew open on the curve between Wilson and Halsey. The door returned to the latch.
2. Grand St had a waterfall this morning.
3. After the drug test, boarded a R to 42St. Was going to wait for the R110B. R32#3904 pulled into the station. Was going to take the E to JC but a sick passenger at 5Av made me changed that idea. Left the train at 7Av.
4. Went upstairs at 7Av and transferred to the D. R68#2917 was very clean and bright on the inside. The 6Av dash was screwed because of track work. Got off at W4.
5. Just missed an A, so that was it because another one was not coming for a while. Was about to go downstairs when I noticed a weird sign. The sign stated that the C and E trains were running via the 3Av local. Took a pic of that oddity. Went downstairs for F.
6. When the F pulled in, guess who comes across the platform but R40#4173. Temptation, Temptaion. I chose the F because I wanted to see the J line stations that was in the process of rebuilding. Took F to Delancey.
7. Boarded J train. Saw an off duty motorman. We began to talk and told about the oppurtunities that I had once I become a conductor. He also told me to choose the B division since I live in Bklyn. Never saw the stations that was under construction.
8. At Bway Jct, I saw the lamp posts that Mr. Slant 40 was talking about. I also noticed a sunroof over the J/L mezzanine. At Atlantic, the track most adjacent to the Canarsie track was lifted and only the steelwork is left. There is a red crane @ Liberty and Snediker that I believed part of removing these tracks. I wonder if the upcoming GO on the L has anything to do with the track removal at Atlantic?
All in all, a very productive day.
Train#1941Mike
I just got through sharing info with STEVEB8AVEXP about our early experiences with the subway, and I came to the conclusion that a good new post might be to get my colleagues to let everyone else know when they first got interested in the New York Subway. Was it one ride, or a series of rides that sold you? Did it come at a young age or when you reached adulthood? Let's face it, we are a very enthusiatic bunch, and some might even think of us as somewhat odd. So let us know when did the Love Bug hit?
Yeah, everyone has given their 2 cents on this, so it's my turn:
Scrap the V line altogether. Operate the F thru 63rd. St. at all times and operate the E thru 53rd. St. at all times. Compensate by running 15 E's and 15 F's an hour during rush hours (up from 12/14 respectively), reduced to 10 trains an hour on each line during the midday hours. Short turn some of the F's at Second Ave. to avoid increasing the logjam at Smith/9th where the G terminates.
Re-route the new proposed W route from it's intended destination of Astoria to 71st/Continental Ave. Queens Blvd. local riders would then have the R and W lines (both operating via 60th st.) providing service.
The V line could be introduced after the north side Manhattan bridge opens, and the R143's are in full service.
Began with the Oyster Bay train, from Sea Cliff at 12:27pm. For a change the announcements worked on the double decker, and things ran pretty smoothly. Unfortunately after Roslyn the announcements conked out, so they had to be done manually. They never work properly, and were a big waste of money (unessesary bells and whistles).
Of course even though I'm only going to Jamaica I have to change at Mineola. We all get off the train, and the platform is very crowded. For some reason it takes a few minutes for the train to pull out, delaying the one behind it.
The M-1 train finally pulls in and is packed (yep I had to stand). It took several minutes trying to get the doors to close.
We finally got going at around 1:05pm, fortunately the trip was fast, though a bit slow around NHP, around which the lights went out on the train for a minute.
Finally was glad to depart the "silver snail" at Jamaica where I went down to the subway for the E.
Once I get there I move to the west end of the platform and an E pulls in. Damn! Another R46 E. It seems whenever I wait at Jamaica they come along. Well I wanted a front window so I waited for the next train, which was fortunately R32's. Pretty fast trip till about Roosevelt when we caught up to an F in front of us, for some reason whenever I take the E there seems to always be an F in front.
So speed wasn't too impressive after Roosevelt, creeping out of Roosevelt then finally getting some speed in the express tunnels.
Well at leas 53rd street was reasonably fast. I always notice there is what appears to be wires around a section of the tunnel labeled "Do Not touch", between 5/53rd and 7th ave stations, I wonder what those are for.
We are held for a C to pass in front of us at 50th, then proceed.
Just miss an A at 42nd, but when we get to 14th the A hasn't made much progress. Get out at 14th for a trip on the L.
Fortunately just make an R42 L and get the window. At Union Square a guy comes on and said to me "You made it to the window first". Fortunately for him, he can have it after a trip through the 14th street tubes. Brooklyn bound the T/O was very fast, playing the signals very close, the GT's would clear just as we passed them. I hold on for dear life, expecting to get tripped.
At Bedford I get off. There seems to a very trendy crowd in that area, they must have spread out of Union Sqaure. Get another R42 Manhattan bound, but the T/O is a real scardy cat and the ride was slow.
Get off at Union Square and walk around. Really nice area, busy and clean, and alot of good stores around like Virgin and Barnes and Noble for example. Don't see many chinese around, mostly white yuppies. Man that area has changed!
After that I wanted to go to Chinatown, so I went down to the IRT station. There were huge crowds waiting on the downtown local track, and an empty 4 train of R62's on the express. The train must've gotten stuck.This was around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. A packed 4 pulled in on the local track. It was too packed, I'd wait for the 6. But then a 5 pulled in. So I figured I'd get on. By that time the stuck train was moved, but I'd take the 5 down to Brooklyn bridge for an uptown 6. We ran express on the local track, it wasn't much of an express since we had to slow down at each station and honk.
Waited awhile for a uptown 6 train, as announcements were being made that there was NO Brooklyn bound 4,5 service, that they were diverted to the west side, because on an "incident" at 14th street.
A 6 finally came, and went through Chinatown. Not too busy, but there were still plenty of people around.
Went to Grand street and just missed a Q. Had to wait awhile then a B came. Took it to 34th and crossed over for a S/B Q train.
It came shortly, the cab door was open and the dash was sweet. Our Q train of slants hit 47mph. That 34-W4th dash is one of the fastest spots in the system! It will surely be missed once the flip happens.
Got off at W4th, got an E to 42nd, then walked over to the 7 train.
Just missed an express, but only had to wait a few minutes for another. A good evening express ride back to Flushing, although it appeared the Casey Stengal lot got flooded.
Also went looking for the departure bell. In some stations it appeared to be in a box, while at main street the bells looked new and were near the top of pillars.
New Directions swept the top 3 seats, now hold 37 seats out of 46 on the executive board, and hold 5 out of 7 vice president slots.
Results:
President-
Roger Toussaint received 12,465 votes.
Eddie Melendez received 4,347 votes.
Willie James received 3,786 votes.
Secretary-Treasurer-
Ed Watt received 12,471
Joe Pajewski 4,310 (Mel)
Swainson Gill 3,541 (Jam)
Recording Secretary-
Noel Acevedo received 12,332
Julia McMillon 4,174 (Mel)
Virginia McGeagh 3,804 (Jam)
ND won the VP positions in Mtce. Of Way (Julio Rivera), Stations
(Darlyne Lawson), Car Maintenance (Neil Persaud)., RTO (Tim Schermerhorn), and TA Surface (Amin Khan).
The VP for the Private Lines will be George Jennings. The VP for
MaBSTOA will be Gil Rodriquez.(Both non-ND)
ND won the Executive Board seats in Track, Structure, Line
Equipment/Signals, Stations, Car Mtce., Conductor/Tower, Train
Operators, TA Surface Mtce, TA Surface Operators, and Westchester/NY Bus.
Over the past two days I've been in downtown Milwaukee taking measurements for an upcoming renovation project. Milwaukee is a cool city that is sort of like a little miniature version of Chicago, but with one glaring defect: No rail transit!!
Being entirely dependent upon streets and expressways, Milwaukee finds itself in the position of being royally f***ed when a major traffic artery is disrupted. Such a major disruption occurred yesterday when two I-beams on the Hoan Bridge broke, causing a large section of roadway to buckle as much as twelve feet. A single remaining intact I-beam -- discovered to have hairline cracks during a routine inspection a few weeks ago -- is all that is keeping that section of span from completely collapsing.
It's interesting to note that the bridge is only 20 years old, and was originally dubbed "the bridge to nowhere" because it was built as a pork-barrel project by the city's mayor despite massive public opposition. For years it had ramps that literally ended in mid-air. (One of these such ramps gave the bridge a starring role in The Blues Brothers, serving as the launching pad for the two Illinois Nazis during the chase sequence. Nevermind the fact that the scene supposedly took place in Chicago.) Now, once again, the Hoan is literally the bridge to nowhere.
(Here's the article from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel about the bridge, along with photos.)
Needless to say, the span has been closed to traffic and will likely remain closed for at least a year while they make repairs. Motorists used to taking the bridge are now forced to find alternate routes, and the result in downtown Milwaukee yesterday evening was near total gridlock. (An accompanying snowstorm certainly made things worse, but a few inches of snow is nothing for people who live in Milwaukee.)
I rode with a co-worker while he drove his car from one parking garage (where we were working) to the hotel garage not more than a couple blocks away. The trip took at least half an hour; I could have walked the distance in a fraction of that time period. If it weren't spitting snow and if I didn't have a lot of stuff to carry, I probably would have gotten out and done just that. But what about the people who have a much greater distance to travel? Busses were just as useless because they share the same streets as everybody else. Some sort of subway and/or light rail system would have been put to good use in a situation like that, but unfortunately that was not an option.
The moral of the story: Crack open a can of Pabst Blue Ribbon and hug your subway!!
-- David
Safely back home in Chicago, IL
Just about an hour ago I arrived in NYC on the ACELA EXPRESS. Since most of you know the basic facts of the train, I'll limit my comments to personal observations which may be of interest.
I was on #2175, the 5:12 departure from Boston South Station. I chose to board the train at the suburban Route 128 station, since it has a large parking garage ($10/day). The train was due at 5:26, and arrived five minutes late at 5:31. It arrived on Track 2, the northbound track, so that it could pass MBTA locals between Boston and Providence. I rode "business class," which is main seating, in 2x2 configuration ("first class" is 2x1, and about one-third more fare). In no particular order of importance:
We hit 150 mph for about 20 miles in Rhode Island, according to the conductor.
You can feel the tilt kick-in for the first few minutes, but then you get used to it. It really helped dampen the lateral forces. At relatively slow speeds, the tilt does not work, and you can notice the curves then!
In the cafe car, there is a maintenance closet. Since there were a dozen or more technicians/suits lurking on-board, it was open most of the time. In the closet was a small CRT with diagnostic data. But most interestingly, a speed read-out! When I peeked in, it said 130. I ran back to my seat for my camera, and when I returned, we were at 66 :-(
The train is very, very smooth. Similar to a jet aircraft in flight, with only minor ripples. But that makes you notice the constant acceleration/deceleration a lot more.
The train is very, very quiet. But that makes you notice distractions inside the car more, such as the four youngsters making a lot of noise in my car, and running up and down the aisle. This was a lot more annoying than the low din of cell phone users.
Walking through the train, I'd estimate that about 50% of the passengers were using an electronic device of some type, such as a computer, cell phone, PDA, CD or DVD player, etc.
The cafe car has only 12 stools and a narrow counter for eating. This encourages people to return to their seats to eat. The food wasn't too bad -- I had a burger, chips, and white wine (couldn't resist) for $9. A bit pricey, but then again, you don't get a high-speed train ride when you eat at a gourmet restaurant, do you?
In business class, seating is 2x2. It is interesting to note that the seat "numbers" are (for example, in my row): 11A&C 11D&F. This is similar to first class in airplanes, whereas coach has ABC and DEF. I think they're trying to give the illusion of first class! Of course, there's no way 3x3 seating could be installed. I hope!
The electronic destination signs inside my car were stuck on "Next Stop: Back Bay" all trip.
We arrived at NY Penn Station six minutes late. So we lost one minute enroute. Not bad! All-in-all, a very enjoyable trip. I just wish it was light out so that I could have enjoyed the scenery zip by. However, the appraoch to NYC was particularly beautiful going over the Hell Gate Bridge.
Unfortunately, my return on Saturday is on a "slow" Acela Regional electric, and the Expresses don't run on weekends yet.
On Wednesday, I had an opportunity to peek out of the first door of the six-car G train enroute to Brooklyn, and saw the new punches which were installed at 36 Street in Queens.
On the IND Local there are five punches currently labeled - one for the 63rd Street connector, and the other four for the lines currently served through this area - one for E, one for F, one for G and one for R.
Two assumptions -
- My guess is that the express track has these five punches plus a sixth for the reconstructed layup track, and
- These will eliminate the Queens Plaza punches.
- Jose
Brit Hume on Fox News tonight was saying the Bush people and House Speaker Dennis Hastert would like to get Tom DeLay out of the House of Representatives (DeLay being part of the group of Texas Republicans that thing Bush was too liberal as governor). To that end, they're considering offering him the post of Transportation Secretary.
DeLay, of course, was the man who single-handedly strangled Houston's attempt to build a light rail system this past year. And while he doesn't control the transportation pursestrings (Bud Schuster of Pennsylvania owns that honor), considering how DeLay feels about Democrats in general and Hillary in particular, were this rumor turn out to be true you could expect to see DeLay try to tighten the screws on New York State, and on NYC in particular, as much as possible (and knowing DeLay's attitude he really wouldn't care if it got Pataki defeated for re-election in 2002 because he's even more liberal than Bush is, in the Hammer's eyes)
Brit Hume on Fox News tonight was saying the Bush people and House Speaker Dennis Hastert would like to get Tom DeLay out of the House of Representatives (DeLay being part of the group of Texas Republicans that thinks Bush was too liberal as governor). To that end, they're considering offering him the post of Transportation Secretary.
DeLay, of course, was the man who single-handedly strangled Houston's attempt to build a light rail system this past year. And while he doesn't control the transportation pursestrings (Bud Schuster of Pennsylvania owns that honor), considering how DeLay feels about Democrats in general and Hillary in particular, were this rumor turn out to be true you could expect to see DeLay try to tighten the screws on New York State, and on NYC in particular, as much as possible (and knowing DeLay's attitude he really wouldn't care if it got Pataki defeated for re-election in 2002 because he's even more liberal than Bush is, in the Hammer's eyes)
The following is the New Directions election platform taken off the ND website( www.newdirections.net):
1) Salaries and benefits of elected officers and appointed staff will be sharply reduced. Salaries will be lowered to $75,000/yr for President, Secretary-Treasurer, and Recording Secretary. $70,000/yr for VP and $65,000 for Staff Reps. Medical benefits, sick time, and vacations will be the same as provided in the TWU/MaBSTOA contract. We will reform the staff pension plan based on the principle of equity with the working members of Local 100.
2)The Local's financial records shall be open to all Local 100 members.
3)Division chairs and other elected officers, to be decided upon by the division committees, will be placed on the union payroll to replace appointed staff reps in divisions.
4)We need a strong union presence on the job. The Union hall will be staffed 24/7. We will build a network of stewards and safety reps, chosen by the members where possible, throughout the local. We will start a stewards council where stewards from all divisions can meet, exchange ideas, and develop strategies for dealing with management. we will exercise our right to shut down unsafe work.
5)We will work to break down barriers created by our different titles and divisions. In addition to regular monthly Division and Section meetings, we will hold local-wide membership meetings, joint division meetings, and meetings away from the union hall in communities where Local 100 members live and work.
6)Many of our members are single parents or have to look after children when their spouses work. We will explore ways to provide childcare at all union meetings to make it easier for all members to participate. we will also fight for better protection for our members who can't work, including maternity and disability benefits.
7)Full union rights for probationary and provisional workers, including in the disciplinary procedure.
8)We will fight for full Civil Service status for MaBSTOA employees. protect the MaBSTOA pension by incorporating it into NYCERS.
9)Real pension improvement. Transit workers deserve a further reduction in age and years of service needed for a pension. we will fight to restore 20/50, non-contributory, retirement plan, sacrificed in the 1970's.
10)Reject management's absolute right to set working conditions, schedules, tricks and picks. The union should be protecting and advancing seniority rights, not bargaining them away.
11)The bi-partisan support of the Taylor Law, workfare, and last December's injunctions against the free speech of transit workers show that working people need independent political voices. We should use our COPE money to organize with other unions and community groups to fight for the interests of transit workers in all political arenas and to run our own candidates who will truly, and finally, represent the interests of working people. Expand our political alternatives so that we no longer rely solely on the Democratic and Republican parties.
12)Organize a Local 100 Solidarity Committee. Our fight with management does not exist in a vaccuum. It is taking place in an increasingly anti-worker climate. The outcome of other workers struggles can have an impact on us. Declining levels of unionization, defeated strikes, and contract givebacks have weakened the position of all workers. A stronger labor movement will benefit us all.
13)We pledge to properly prepare to fight to win good contracts for all of Local 100's members. Those preparations will include:
*Strengthening the union on the job
*Organizing the membership to stop management's daily abuses and enforce our right son the job
*Building alliances with other unions, community groups, and the riding public
*Establish a Local 100 fighting fund
*Ensure that the Local will be able to function without the dues check-off
*Recognizing the possibility of a strike and preparing for that possibility
14)No union should take striking lightly. But no union can defend itself and its members if it rules out striking. Properly organized and properly prepared, transit workers can win a strike, save our jobs, stop the deterioration of our working conditions, defeat the Taylor Law, and win true pension improvement. If we are prepared and unified, a strike may not be necessary. The final decision on whether to strike or not can only be made by a vote of the Local membership. The officers' job is to make sure that the union is prepared for any eventuality.
Hi I was wondering if anyone would be interested in trading some extra R-6 number plates that my father gave me recently as were cleaning out his basement. The #'s are: 1315, 1316, 1317. I would be most interested in trading for builders plates from either streetcars or subways, or route signs from Low-V's as well as streetcar rollsigns. The plates are in very good shape, I can send a scan of them out to interested parties. Dave if I have overstepped my bounds please delete this post. I am not out to make any $ on these but do not need 4 of the same car type, and I know the readers of this board would be interested in them
Steve L
Congrats are in order to Erik Garces (The Transit Professional/Mr.R46) for his win for Vice Chairman-B Division with the New Directions faction.
Well, its been a while! When I got back from Denver the law was waiting and served me eviction papers from my own home. Now the (nver mind)sends me bleeding heart notes after trying to destroy me. But I'm back with my real family in Livingston, MT; unfortunately no model RR in the near future but have finally found the chance to contact you all. On my son's computer for the time being. So I'll try to get back in the swing of things again; with luck I'll have something to offer. Denver Light Rail great by the way. Good to be reading Subtalk again, best wishes to all.
After a long absence from the CP Rail consist, five shiny new R142's were just delivered to Fresh Pond. I didn't have enough time to go chase them down at the overpass as usual. Unfortunately, my kitchen window dosen't really give me the best view of the car numbers. I believe they were 6361-6365, which haven't been delivered yet IIRC. The only other thing in the consist other than the R142's was a Soo Line box car :)
Shawn.
rumor has it amongst the reality challenged that the concourse shops will be getting the entire redbird fleet... since they have had such great success with the r68's, it was reasoned that they would be able to get the redbirds into top condition, so that the redbirds would be able to run another 40 years, thus allowing the r142's to continue as a show fleet... that is allowing the r142's to move around the system from yard to yard for photo ops for railfans and calender makers, and going into occasional service when cause for celebration in the city arises... with the bush election, future good times may be few and far between... many of the florida election officials will be given jobs as umpires in the national and american leagues, thus ensuring scant opportunity for future world series championships for the new york teams..
The PA's 15-year $23 billion budget calls for raising bridge tolls to $7 and PATH fares to $2, with multiple-use discounts. Story in Star-Ledger
Does anyone know whether the South Ferry and City Hall stations are approximately the same size and have the same grade curve? I've never had the chance to visit the City Hall stop, but when I'm at South Ferry, I can get an idea of the size and shape of the platform at City Hall.
Sorry to the rest of you ....
Lev, My reply keeps bouncing back ... so it's not that I don't want to reply & since I don't have your new phone number at work I decided to SHOUT OUT to you.
Mr t__:^)
All this talk about sick days (I have 15, hmm sounds familar) I think we should all have a Subtalk Sick Out Field Trip.
Lets all call out sick one day and do some rail/sub fanning this month!!!! We could go Acela chasing? R142?
Here our hero tells us the stories behind all those wacky railroad names and how most of they utterly failed. Enjoy. -Mike
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This time; What's in a Name, Part 2
Many railroads gave themselves rather elaborate names in their quest to become giant mega systems in the days of old. A mega system back in the 1800's was often one that covered an entire county and possibly, the entire state. More often than not, the name was far more ambitious than the revenues generated, investment capital obtained and the actual physical plant ever built.
Great sounding railroad names fascinated me as a kid. I had no clue that most of them didn't come anywhere near their namesake cities. But I was little and didn't really care either.
The St Louis and San Francisco Railway. SLSF were the reporting marks and it was most commonly known as the Frisco. Unfortunately, the Frisco never made it west of Texas. But it sure sounded impressive. And it is interesting that its nickname was the point it so grandly failed to reach.
Missouri Pacific and Texas & Pacific. Again, neither made it to the Pacific Ocean, although MoPac did reach Pueblo, Colorado, coming far closer than T&P's El Paso terminus.
Toledo, Peoria & Western. They never reached east of the Illinois/Indiana border until Conrail came along and TPW bought the old PRR Effner Branch to Logansport, IN. They also never went west of the Peoria, Illinois area. But again, an ambitious name. They sounded big.
Indiana, Illinois & Iowa. The Three I was eventually swallowed up into New York Central. They did have Indiana and Illinois covered, but never quite reached Iowa directly, They did connect with several railroads that traversed Iowa though.
Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific. Sounds good on paper. Died a horrible death in reality though, far short of its western ocean namesake only reaching Denver.
Then, there are the ones that kept it within reason.
Chicago & Eastern Illinois. A great little railroad that actually had a considerable amount of Indiana trackage.
Maine Central. Mostly all within the State of Maine, except for part of the Mountain Branch which reached into New Hampshire. And it was a great regional carrier.
Detroit Toledo & Ironton. Reached everywhere they advertised at some point in time.
Then, there is the absurd.
Chicago, Missouri & Western. Destined and named to fail. Give each letter a value of one dollar. Add up all the letters in their name, add ten dollars for the ampersand and you have more money than the CMNW had in the bank after its first day of operation. CMNW, so dangerously resembled CNW; to where many of its cars were so erroneously diverted when nobody understood these oddball initials.
I remember having lunch with one of their high ranking officials several months before the operation started. He told me he was seriously concerned about the name and initials and predicted what would happen. And sure enough, it actually occurred, just like he envisioned. It is a shame that he was the only one with this visionary gift. He said the initials would cost them dearly as they were too similar to CNW and he was concerned of misrouted traffic. The others disagreed with him. Too bad for them.
Chicago, Central & Pacific. Poorly named and poorly maintained for years by ICG before the former pilot of Air Force One came along. They never reached west of Sioux City, Iowa and Omaha, Nebraska. They did spend over $600,000 for the final IC Green Diamond though. Probably their only glory.
It was another one of those "Have I got a railroad for you" deals from the gang of reputable used car salesmen at Illinois Central Gulf. I wonder if ICG management wore loud, gaudy sport coats to work like old Herb Tarleck did on the television show "WKRP in Cincinnati"? Maybe they also sold watches and jewelry from the trunks of their cars too?
But interestingly enough, we all know these names. In all these cases, their legends outlived their legacies. True, CCP still lives on paper, it is now really all IC and today, CNIC. They just pay their help far less.
Most railroads had slogans or catch phrases that the public could identify with.
New York Central was the "Road to the Future". Perlman and Sauders shortened up that future considerably along with "Standard Railroad of the World" Pennsylvania, when the two ailing giants formed Penn Central. And we all remember how PC became the biggest single failure in the history of American business in only sixteen short months of life.
The Milwaukee Road was "America's Resourceful Railroad". I guess resourceful meant they figured out a plan where they could continue to pay dividends to stockholders and bonuses to management while in reality, showing little to no actual profit. Liquidating assets to accomplish such a feat was indeed, highly resourceful. They must have shared their financial brain with Penn Central.
The Louisville & Nashville was known as "The Old Reliable". By the mid 70's, they were awash in the myriad of railroads known as "The Family Lines".
Illinois Central was the "Main Line of Mid-America". And true, they were, even in the days after they "Gulf'd" their way into a lousy merger with the GM&O. Today, they are an extension of CN in the US, as "The Main Line of North America", although not officially known by that slogan. I credit that one to Conductor John Birch In Champaign, IL.
Southern was known as the "Railroad that gives a green light to innovation". And innovate they did. The jumbo hopper for hauling grain, radio control mid train locomotives, a highly successful merger with Norfolk & Western. Constant revenue growth and ten successive years of Harriman Gold Medals for safety. They went on after the N&W merger to become "The Thoroughbred of Transportation". Then, they battled CSX for Conrail. Now they have become little
more than the jackass of the industry.
Seaboard Coast Line. The combination of Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line. Air Line; I never quite got that one. Did they fly their business air freight and transload it to railcars for final delivery? Did the cars ride on pockets of air like mag lev?
They had catchy slogans on the sides of cushioned boxcars like "Another Cushioned Load" and after the 1967 merger, "Smooth Cushioned Load". They also had "Service Customers Like". In 1982 they became the Seaboard in Seaboard System. L&N, A&WP, Georgia and Clinchfield, their Family Lines children, all became the System part. Eventually Seaboard would become the "S" in CSX. Quite the honor.
Chessie System. The amalgamation of the C&O, B&O and Western Maryland.
Their corporate logo was a cat, a logo and trademark carried over from C&O days. It became one of the most recognized symbols in business history. Right behind the shape of a Coca Cola bottle. Everybody knew of Chessie the cat. Chessie appeared in dozens of publicity photos for everything from passenger and freight transportation to the war effort. A marketing bonanza. "Sleep like a
kitten".
Eventually Chessie went on to become the "C" in CSX. Chessie the cat was sent off to a retirement kennel in favor of a sterile and generic sounding name with no corporate logo. Just letters, "CSX". In an era of IBM, GE, GM and RCA, the brain trust at this newly formed company thought that not only should the corporate name for the big new conglomerate be sterile and cold, so should the railroad name. Most everybody knows what the letters in IBM, GE, GM and RCA all stand
for. Aside from railfans, does anybody have a clue what CSX stands for? This was the best they could do for a name? And they probably paid some consulting firm zillions of dollars for this idea. Whenever anybody asks me what CSX stands for, I simply tell them "nothing".
I cannot believe this was the best choice. And it even caused problems with the American Association of Railroads. You see, the initials of private owner cars always end with the letter "X". Such as DOWX, MONX, UTLX, FURX. Now there was a problem, CSX. That is where the "T" came from in CSXT. It had to end in something other than X. The railroad unit is actually CSX Transportation. I wonder how much more they paid the consultants to devise the contingency
plan? The cat is out and the X and T are in.
Wouldn't a name like say, Chesapeake Seaboard Railway have sounded much better? They could have found a way to incorporate the cat, and the highly recognizable trademark would have lived on. Too practical and logical. And besides, some guy getting paid way more than me didn't think this up, so the idea is preposterous. And just think we railroaders and railfans of North America could have called it the "ChessBoard". You heard it here first folks. They could have been the CSR. No X problems to worry about here. And CSR is easier to say than CSX. It flows better, rolls right off the tongue. It also could
still have been referred to as the Chessie, although the Jacksonville bunch would most likely not have been too happy. They probably would have put the kibosh to that plan. They needed their "S". But wait, an S appears in both Chesapeake and Seaboard. Two S's, in a left-handed sort of way, top billing as there is only one C. Maybe they could have capitalized the S in Chesapeake.
CheSapeake Seaboard. It is so outlandish, I cannot believe they didn't
actually take this one up.
Union Pacific. "We can handle it." Then, "We will deliver". Really? "But When"? "Can you deliver this"? "Will you ever deliver this"? They began their infamous first meltdown with the CNW absorption about the time this slogan really started to hit it big on all new equipment and repaints. So did a few of the responses I mentioned above as well as a few others. Their downward spiral escalated after they lied to the government and said it would never happen again with the SP takeover. The powers that be in Dallas decided that the new slogan must be stopped. It must be the reason that they are having a little trouble moving a few of their trains here and there. It certainly could not be arrogance or indifference.
Eliminate the slogan and things will get better.
Finally, one last slogan. One that never actually appeared anywhere, except on a few CCP locomotives and some grain hoppers my lumber crayon and I had access to. CCP did not have a slogan. They were too busy trying to get trains across 700 some odd miles of broken down, worn out and falling apart railroad with power that matched. They didn't have time to create a slogan. So I, thanks to some incentive from David Byrne and the Talking Heads came up with one.
"The Road to Nowhere"
Industry in places like Waterloo and Freeport had taken a beating in the late 70's and early 80's. Many had closed or downsized considerably. This, in turn, reduced volumes of rail traffic. Jack Haley had a railroad alright. CNW and BN had railroads too. And theirs were in far better shape with much better power. What took the CCP to move from Omaha to Chicago in 36 hours or so, BN and CNW were probably doing in half that time.
I recall coming east on the premier intermodal train #10 out of Council Bluffs one day. We were clip clopping along on our 53 solid miles of 25 mph track. There on the adjacent CNW line, a 120 car loaded coal train destined for Wheatfield, IN zoomed past us like we weren't moving. He had an SD50 and a brand new SD60 for power. I had six aged GP8's, 10's and 18's for power and we were pulling about 35 or 40 cars. As I watched him scream past us and heard him whistle his laughter, I knew this was indeed, the Road to Nowhere.
And so it goes,
Tuch
Is SOUTH FERRY technically, statistically,
legitimately, assertively, the ONLY
FIVE-CAR STATION in the SYSTEM!?!?
Article in the Economist on the state of intercity rail in the UK. Perhaps Amtrak should pay attention.
A frosty retort is poetic justice for Sub Belt gloaters by Mary Schmich
If any of what I said sounds familiar, it's because it was originally written for a posting I made to SubTalk. I liked what I wrote, so I modified it a bit and sent it via e-mail to Mary Schmich. Amazingly, she liked it too and used it as the basis for today's column.
Enjoy,
-- David
Chicago, IL
Running around the city for various business appointments today, I found a Sleeping Q Slant-40 trying to hide behind the false wall on the Queens-bound platform of the Lex/63rd station. The door to the other side was open, and I was able to take a picture! I'll forward it to Dave for posting when I get home on Sunday.
I also saw a Manhattan-bound 2 (redbirds) at Borough Hall which had side signs different on every car... Some 2, some circle 5, some diamond 5, and even a 1!
The slow order on A2 and A4 entering Newkirk Ave on the Brighton line is still in effect (Manhattan Bound). Today I left for work later then normal and the Kings Hwy platform was very crowded (A Q had just left, I could see the marker lights well before Ave M).
In comes a D on the express track making the switch at the Kings Hwy interlocking. The C/R announces that "because of the lateness of this train we will make express stops to Prospect Park".
But when we get to Ave H, the T/O slows the train to an extremem crawl. We did not catch up to the Q in front of us and we were not riding the station timer signals as far as I could tell through the pasted over cab window. This T/O is taking brake every 5th second on the downgrade, the worse I've seen since the slow order went up.
All the time supposed to be made up by this battery run on the express track was lost at this point.
Why is this slow order still in effect? Why do different T/O's act differently to it? Some don't even slow for it, some crawl like they expect a broken rail ahead.
It is time to lift the slow order and return Brighton Express service to it's meaning of Express IMHO, the leaves have stopped falling!!!
I'm calling the line manger or whatever they call them now when I copy the phone number down from the station and see what they say tommorrow.
The Friday 12/15/00 New York Times reports about a Plan [that would] Would Put Extra Trains on Busy Lines.
--Mark
The Friday 12/15/00 New York Times reports about a Plan [that would] Would Put Extra Trains on Busy Lines.
Not included in the planned service improvements are the B, C, D, G, M, Q and Z lines.
--Mark
Yesterday on Amtrak Train 40 all 3 power units failed just after the train passed the Hammond IN, station. It took 40 minutes for CSX to push it into a siding where it sat...and sat...and sat without any HEP or train heat. CSX had basically "lost" the train. After people could state to see their breaths on the train the crew even called 911 for assisstance. Anyway, about 5 hours later CSX sends in 2 freight locomotives that then hook on and pull the train at least to Pittsburg. (I do not believe that the freight locomotives had HEP either.) The only other bit of info I had was that the Pittsburg Sation staff met the train w/ buckets of KFC because there had been no food service.
Anyway, at least its not as bad as those poor souls who were trapped on a plane on the runway for 8 hours. At least the Amtrak passengers had to option to get off the train. I wonder if during the time the train was stuck in the siding, if the crew allowed people to make food runs to nearby stores (if applicable).
Does anyone know how I can tell a R-40M from a R-42?
A subtalker posted about what line do I use the most. I have been using the E since I was 8. Everytime we had to go to manhattan it was the E and then transfer to something else. I like the E generally because I grew up with it. However, my favorite car is the R46. I like the F best (for the b division ) because it uses all R46's. However, I like it when the F goes out side and how long the route is. Not because of its cars alone. I like the 2 as my favorite A Divison line. I like when it goes outside in the bronx and I like how fast it is aa an express in manhattan. I love the speed of the redbirds, and I have yet to ride a R142 in manhattan on the 2. I have so far ridden the R142 from Chambers to 42nd. but I am sure it can go faster from 42nd to 96. especially in the southbound direction!
Kudos for the enlightening conversation on the Secaucus transfer. Perhaps one of you folks would know just what NJT's plans are for dealing with the connection to the Airport Monorail. I just recently returned from Madrid, which last year extended its subway to its main airport, and have a few questions that I haven't seen addressed here or anywhere else.
1) Will new or modified equipment be used so that people will have a place to put their baggage?
The rolling stock of Madrid's new line does have special areas for bags, which are a relief. Of course, the new trains only run on the one line, but at least that gets you part of the way to city center. As for EWR, I have a very bad vision of foreign tourists, loaded with bags, having to cram themselves in to a regular NEC train. Which leads to another question:
2) Will NJT run dedicated shuttle service? Certainly, it makes sense just to add the airport as an extra stop on existing trains - but I would think some airport-only trains would be needed, too, precisely because of the baggage problem.
3) What about the bag-check feature? I remember reading that the Airport station was extensively redesigned so that passengers would eventually be able to check their bags before getting on the monorail. More recently I heard that this service won't be up when the station opens. True?
4) Will service begin before the improvements to Penn-NY are finished? That would seem to be asking for trouble - those extra exits and elevators will be key.
It's terrific that the PA, Amtrak and NJT are cooperating on this plan, but I'm certain that if it isn't done exactly right, no one will use it, and EWR will be plagued by even worse traffic congestion that it suffers now.
Thanks a lot....
You got it right.
A T/O brought in an R32 E train into Jamaica Center, dumped the train and left the train. He did everything by the rules. Something goes wrong, the R32 charged itself up without anyone's knowledge, the air bled off and the train began to roll out of the station, doors open and everything. And you know what the weird thing is? THE PASSENGERS CONTINUED TO BOARD THE TRAIN EVEN AS IT WAS MOVING SO THAT THEY WOULDN'T MISS IT!!! The RCI noticed that the train was rolling so he ran on board and pulled the cord to stop the train.
The NYPD is investigating for possible "vandalism". Kind of reminds you of the pre-GOH R44's huh?
Saw it at 104 St around 1130 am with full J signs and all!
North motor-4387, South motor-4436.
Apparently the yard was short of trains this morning and had to use it.
The dispatcher on duty at Jamaica Center said that in all his years, he had never seen a slant 40 on the J before.
When are the new cars going into service? I still only see the two test trains.
Train Buff Headquarters
For all of you three rail fans out there:
Lionel:On Track For Another Century
Arrived 10 minutes ago with: SBK N2-RD351-SBK N1-6365-64-63-62-6361- NYCT Locomotive 73.
They were covered with snow (on their roofs)! Where in the heck did these silver bullets go?
-Stef
I just saw a commercial for a product called "Scratch-Be-Gone". It's a liquid designed to eliminate scratches on eyeglasses. The demonstration showed a pair of plastic sunglasses scratched beyond belief with sandpaper. The liquid was poured on, rubbed in, and allowed to dry. Seconds later, the scratches were gone. It's some sort of fast drying polymer which bonds instantly.
And it only costs $19.95 if the TA calls NOW!!!!!
LOL.
This message is geared mostly toward the newer SubTalkers whom have appeared on this board recently. Yes I've noticed the new handles !
With 2000 slowly winding down, the 2001 NYC Subway Calendars are still available.
Any questions of where to get them, a brief description or mail order instructions, please use my e-mail address (click on "blue" Bill Newkirk) and not this board.
Thanks for your time and thank you David Pirmann.
Bill "Newkirk"
How many R142/142A are running now? Which will be the first "Redbirds" to retire? How will the IRT car assignments will look during the middle & end of 2001?
A while back, we had a report that the junction of the ROW of the former NY Westchester & Boston (now the Dyre Ave line) and the New Haven ROW south of West Farms had been obliterated or worked upon.
Does anyone know the exact status of this junction?
there's a new series on npr radio called "studio 360" which is at this moment broadcasting a show on the allure of the railroad in the 20th century... there are interviews with a woman who worked as a brakeman for 20 years and wrote 2 books, a reading by jack kerouac, interview with photographer winston link, songs about the railroad, and much more...
the entire show is on the web in real audio at the following:
studio 360
As AirTrain will start to staff in the next month or few any word on their union status? Any organizing anyone can speak of?
The monorail is supposed to run without a driver but can have one if there is a mechanical problem. I belive the CSR's have to do it in emergency but I might be wrong.
If AirTrain works out any bets on how long it will take to look at the 7 train for conversion? 15yrs? the next strike?
Just on the off-chance, has anyone been in the vicinity of 181/ Bway on the 1 either this Saturday (12/16) early AM or last Saturday? Apparently, some people (and I'm being nice here) have been using the station as a film location without TA approval. This morning at about 0400, I just narrowly missed beheading one of them when he leaned over the edge of the southbound platform to retrieve his video camera mounted on a tripod (all of which was painted black), which had been placed on the roadbed - I guess they needed footage of an oncoming train from ground level. The only reason I don't have the holidays off is because of the signal gang north of the station that had me moving much slower than usual entering the station. If anyone knows who these people are, please contact me. I would dearly like to break their heads.
There is a website that a friend of mine gave me. My Friend is a T/O on the R, and the one who owns the site is a T.S.S. He has posted many things about the Motorman training simulator, R142 cars and the 63rd street changes. it included mentioning the E's to 179 and still to Jamaica Center. I wonder if they do plan on sending E's to 179, will it bring back the Hillside express? the site is Http://motorinstructor.tripod.com
Let me know how u guys like it.
E JAMAICA CENTER
E QUEENS EXPRESS
(Yesterday's Daily News "City Beat")
With very little fan fair, the 63rd Street connector was opened last sunday night/monday morning following the running of an 8 car R-46 test train through the new tunnel. Testing began shortly before 2 am and ended shortly after 4 am with two passes through the new tunnels. (I know this since I was on that train with the engineering team) The next day, RTO started running familiarization runs through for training their crews. Sometime this past thursday, history was once again made.The first two passenger trains were diverted through the 63rd street connector tunnel instead of turning them around at 21 Street/Queensbridge. Queensborough Plaza Master Tower sent them through after BIE and sick passenger problems were reported on trains in the 53rd Street tunnel.
New lines shown:
Southern New Jersey Light Rail (City Hall Camden-Trenton Train Station)
Roosevelt Boulevard (Woodhaven Rd.-Walnut/Locust)
Ben. Franklin Parkway (Race/Vine-Art Museum)
Ridge-Locust Line (East Falls-Logan Circle)
Sorry for any funny colors; I made it on a laptop in a dark room.
Hey Guys I am now an official conductor trainee for the system. I start
classes (at min. wage) Jan 2.It only took about a year and a half since the test to get to this point .
There is a G.O. on the B Line sending them through the Sea Beach Line on track E4. Express from Coney Island to 59 Street, local to 36 Street, express to 57 Street and 6 Avenue Manhattan. Pick your car, any car, R40, R68, or R68A. I was on an R68A in the first car by myself until Pacific Street. Quite fast.
There are two 10 car R40 trains serving the shuttle line this weekend. I was on 4272. It was the 2nd car in the train. The first car was in accesible. Guess what happened? Apparently someone loved the cab door so much, they wanted to take it home but had some problems getting it through the door way so just left it lying on the floor. The crew set the circuit breakers on the car so the doors wouldn't open. 3/4 of the light were out in that car. The rest of the train was a mess. Spilled coffee on the floors, foot prints, major new graffiti. I feel sorry for the R40s that have to make that trip.
Hopefully, efforts to get some media attention regarding this matter will pay off. Can't wait to see how the city responds when it is actually proven that there is no reason to run locals between Roosevelt to Queens Plaza, EVERY SINGLE weekend, for no reason.
I'm rather puzzled. What exactly are the differences between the R-44 and R-46 trains? I know that on the F,G,R, and sometimes E are trains that are either 44 or 46s, and I know that on at least the A run trains that are either 44 or 46s.
The major cosmetic difference I've been able to find is that on the A there is a glass panel isolating the lateral seats from the train doors, presumably to keep people standing by the doors from leaning over onto the face of someone sitting down. Is there anything else and which trains are these?
Dan
Click on link in upper left of the index page to join.
whats up with the orange blinking lights on the side of the rohr metrorail cars as they come to a stop?
There are cures for it there are solutions liquids, offered in the catolouge provided by mass transit magazine, www.masstransitmag.com. ANYWAYS what is wrong with graffitti? is it really vandalism? is it art? All I know is that the New York City Transit Museum on Schemerhorn Street is missing 30 years of Art on the wheels of steel History, neglected people that are a very significant part of this sysem's history such as the Fabolus 5 Tracy168 and Lee Quinonies, and other Graffitti writers such as Iz the Wiz, and Dondi who have made active contributions to NYCTA history are neglected by ignorance, Oh well what can I say, i dont think they'll be recognized along with estimated 15,000 graff artists who participated on the Three Divisions over 20 yrs, BTW i am new and i would hope to be on often providing my opinion sometimes, ne ways thank you
Starting Monday they will now start running the 5 trains of R142A'S that where sitting round the Westchester Yard the last few mouths.
At least that is what all the RCI's along the Pelham line say. If this is true the R62A's should now start moving to the Flushing Line.
The Pelham Redbirds should be staying alittle longer.
Dreary day, drizzle and raw wind. Somehow I managed to get the N21 bus down to Great Neck and get a Port Washington train. It's amazing how many people still don't know how to use the ticket machines, and hold up the line. And there is a food donation box, announcements are made in the station about helping the hungry. Yet I saw few bags of food, instead, people's garbage, plates, half-eaten pieces of pizza among other disgusting stuff. In a rich community like Great Neck these people could afford better, but unfortunately rich snobs are often the least generous. The box was clearly marked FOOD DONATION and stated it was not a garbage. I'd like to personally flog the idiots who think it is garbage. Their rich lawyers won't save them this time. And these people should be sent to re-education classes to learn proper behavior and understanding of poverty.
Another idiot left the window open on the bus and the back was all wet and mucky. The train was a few minutes late, and unfortunately the first two cars were closed (common lazy practice by conductors), so no window view. The ride through Queens is always so depressing. When going through Jackson heights, Elmhurst, and Woodside I feel like I'm in a third world country. Saw at least 5 sweatshops, which were also lit up on the ride back as well, those poor girls must be burning the midnight oil so some spoiled kid in the suburbs has a toy.
Also I rode the 8th ave local twice today, both ways a C train. It seems the E does not run that often on weekends. I actually see more C's than E's.
The dreary weather didn't scare away the shoppers and tourists, Penn station was crowded and so was that C train. Grand street in Chinatown had some flooding (yuck), but the beautiful girls kinda negated the dreary weather. Wasn't too busy over there though.
At Penn they seem to always call a train 10 minutes before it's departure. Do they ever call it before 10 minutes to the departure time? We got track 17, and after I got on the train filled up fast, SRO and lots of door holding when it was time to leave. We made it out at 5:20pm instead of 5:19pm because an old lady was holding a door for somebody.
I usually don't take the LIRR at night, and it's amazing how dark the ROW is in Queens. I wonder why they don't have ROW lighting in the major switching areas around L.I.C. and Woodside.
Alot of factories lit up though, it seems the lights are burning all night in Jackson heights and Elmhurst. Pretty depressing social commentary though, a train filled with yuppies and money going through an area that looks like a third world country where hard working immigrants labor away while yuppies go home to their mansions. I think I'll just leave it at that.
Found this on the website of the Dallas Morning News this morning (while looking for their Giants-Cowboys pregame stories). With the light rail cars, I'm guessing the station will be more like Boston's Green Line than a real subway, but for mass trasit-phobic Texas, it is a start.
Of course, I do think the writer of the story may need Todd's help in determining the underground depth of a station. If the stop really is 100 feet below North Central Expressway (the Gowanus of the Southwest), that would put it deeper than the No. 7 train at Grand Central, which would be a heck of a drop for a line that's outdoors most of the way.
Dallas gets first subway station
I have seen no pictures of the yard on this site or on any of the sites on the web. It is not even metioned on the yard part of nycsubway.org why? Is it that secret? What goes on there. Whatever they are doing they are doing a good job by keeping the 4 line fleet the best fleet in the system. It is a shop and a storage yard from what I have seen from passing by. Why has nobody been able to get pictures or even a track map from the area. hey maybe they even have some R-142's you never know (I think I got some heypaul type conversation in me now) What is it that they do the 4 fleet that makes them the best fleet? Whew an X file case.
Christopher Rivera
Two new MARTA stations opened yesterday, the Sandy Springs station and the North Springs station. An article said 10 new trains were put into service so I'm guessing that means cars. A trip to the airport from the North Springs only takes 42 minutes. They are also raising the fare from $1.50 to $1.75 to help cover the cost of the new stations and the new trains.
The Montgomery County Planning Commission this week recommended that SEPTA prepare an environmental impact study for a commuter rail line to Allentown via Quakertown. Ot has been determined that people will use the line if someone is willing to spend 180 to 217 million to construct it. Operating costs will range between 5 and 7 million with a projected 2/3 farebox recovery ratio. The line would run to Lansdale and then to Norristown via. the Stoney Creek branch and then to Centre City. Proposed new stops in Montgomery County would include Telford, Franconia, Hatfield, Lansdale, West Point, Blue Bell and East Norriton.
As per today's New Jersey Sunday Record, The MTA is offering to dump 650 aging redbirds a dozen miles off the New Jersey shores to create the artificial reefs.
The federal government believes this is a good program to enhance marine life, stated Al O'Leary in the article. They consider it recycling! There is also a economic benefit from the dumping of these cars because Sport fisherman and divers could visit these reefs, and they believe that it could generate $100 million for the economy.
The MTA would cover the cost of this project which is believed to cost less than the cost of scrapping the cars which is $13 million.
The only problem environmentalist are having is that, about a decade ago, Philadelphia SEPTA Cars were dumped off of the Sandy Hook area but now are rusting and the fear is that the Redbirds will do the same causing some environmental issues. Other than that fact, everyone is backing the idea.
The spots chosen for the sinking are off the shores of Manasquan, Long Beach and Atlantic City.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Saturday I went to 36st to see if training was going on. Sure enough, it was. I saw 2 4 car R-46 trains pass in the opposite direction at 63dr and Steinway st, first car with lots of TA personnel and the rest of the train empty. All storm doors were unlocked. When a train arrived at 36st, it would radio Queensboro plaza "The V train is on 1 track at 36" and signal D1 1278 would change to green over yellow (even though the track goes straight.) On the other side, at Queensbridge, people were perplexed as to where the trains were coming. An announcement says track one, the manhattan bound track, but since both are manhattan bound at a terminal and there are no track numbers (who knows that T1 and T2 are the track #s?) everyone is lost. Both "V" trains pass each other here, honk through, and at this point everyone is cursing the TA at making them run up and down stairs. The trains were turning at 57st / 6th, at least that's my guess (surely not Roosevelt Island and definitely not 57th / 7th or I would have noticed). I believe this is why the B is not running to 57th and 6th on weekends, they needed to close the station so they could do the testing.
When the MTA built the Archer Ave line, this is how they planned on keeping Hillside express service:
E - LOCAL after 71st. The tracks to Archer ave are even called D1A and D2A, and the tracks lead straight into the local.
F - Express to 179.
R - Local to 179.
Guess what? This gives everyone direct express service to Manhattan except Sutphin Blvd and 169st. The new Sutphin/Archer station took all of the LIRR passengers away from Sutphin/Hillside. All buses that stop at the bus terminal also stop at either Parsons/Archer or 179st. The few people who are left to use those stops can transfer one stop away to an express.
Why is this not in effect??
BTW: This also allows direct service from any 2 Queens IND local stops without a transfer. This would pull people off the express if they are going between, say, Steinway and 169th, or (me) 63rd and Van Wyck Blvd.
While I see that the R142As have more trains coming in, and you can probably catch one every half an hour, what about the R142...particularly the Yankees Subway Series Train? I will likely be in NYC this wednesday, and was wondering when and where I could catch it on the #2. -Nick
Why do exp. trains go slow around 135 st on the A,B,C,D? I take the D everyday and when I get to 145 street and the B is there....well both trains leave at the same time and while the D is taking its sweet time the B train flies past by, stops at 135 then flies to 125 street. My train went so slow that when my train gets to 135 that the B is leaving. I thought the express is supposed to be faster then local. I know that this happens on the A train as well. Why is it? Tracks, the mass amount of switches? What is it that slows these trains down?
Christopher Rivera
A proposal to study the feasibility of installing a temporary RR crossing gate on the Manhattan side of the Manhattan Bridge is being circulated to MTA, state assembly, Manhattan Borough President's office and Straphangers Campaign. The idea would be that if this is feasible, the re-routings, stub trains and shuttles and the W train could be made unnecessary. Trains would cross over to the BMT side, then back again over existing switches in Brooklyn.
To work, this would have to be done in such a way that the bridge's integrity not be threatened, and that the disadvantages, such as the inconvenience to motorists on the lower deck and the introduction of auto vs, train collision risks due to moron drivers crashing the gate to "beat the train" be outweighed by the advantages (cheaper and easier than rerouting trains otherwise, better subway service).
I don't know what kind of support the proposal will receive, but it is, hopefully, a starting point for discussion and a means to affirm that every alternative be examined before subway service to Brooklyn goes to hell for three years.
don't listen to this Fool named Train Maniac. I say don't let him stop us from being who we are. We are Railfans, and he doesn't understand what we stand for. its clear as we all can see is that he doesn't like Railfans. We as Railfans clearly have enemies. We see them all the time. I remember when I met an enemy who asked me why do I like Trains? I said because I know alot about them. We cannot be fooled by these imitations. He came on to pose as a Railfan but we can all tell who is fake and who is not! I say we as Railfans have many enemies, from NIMBY's to NYIA's. Those are called New Yorkers in action. Some people don't understand us, because we have an unusual talent. But when they get lost, THEY WILL WISH WE WHERE AROUND. ONE THING ABOUT US IS PEOPLE DON'T APPRECIATE US UNTIL THEY ARE LOST OR IF AN UNUSUAL LOOKING TRAIN PULLS IN!!!!!. I was on 42nd and times square and this chinese guy asked was the R142 a 2 Train. I was like yes!!!! just because it isn't a Redbird, don't mean it aint a 2! I'll bet if a Work Train as a R22 stopped and open its doors people would think it was a Train. just think about it. New Yorkers Jumping on an E Train unmanned and rolling because it had no air to keep its brakes applied?
Face it Railfans....
NEW YORKERS WOULD NOT SURVIVE WITHOUT US!!!!!!!!
WE DO THE JOBS THAT SOME CONDUCTORS AND MOTORMEN WON'T DO!!!!
I don't know the speed limit on the 60th St. tube, but on the ride to Queens, the train of R-32s topped at a whopping 67 mph. I know why it did, since I was riding it from lower Manhattan, but I don't want to say if it gets the TO in trouble. But I just want to express how much that ride rocked.
=)
Anon_e_mouse Jr. and I headed for the City today in an effort to finish up our Chanukah shopping at Ziontalis on 35th Street. We boarded NJT at Little Silver just before 9 and arrived at NYP on schedule, around 10:15. There was an empty and dark Amtrak train under the shed at Newark, on the outside track next to where our train stopped - did the meatball fail or what? Otherwise, nothing remarkable about the inbound trip. We got a copy of the October map and walked over to 34th Street on the Never and Rarely, taking an R train to Canal just so we could see how the bridge line station renovation was coming. Workers were in the tunnel on the bridge end of the station - not sure what they were doing - but in general the station looks nice. Then a J train to Chambers, walked through to Brooklyn Bridge on the Lex, and took a rustbird to Union Square. Over to the Broadway line again, took an R back to 34th. We had door problems at 28th, eventually the guard light reset and we were able to proceed. Jr. was at the railfan window, of course, even when it was just one of those smoked glass views - and since he's bigger than I am now I don't get to look out any more :-( Took care of our shopping (not as successfully as usual, unfortunately) and headed through the deluge to the 6 at 33rd uptown, riding another rustbird. The lead car had door problems - only one leaf was opening on the rearmost door on the right side, no other doors opening on that side of the car at all. A T/A person boarded briefly at Grand Central to speak with her, and the female T/O commented that she couldn't wait for that car to be "swimmin' with the fishes". We rode to 51st and Lex, then back to Rockefeller Center on the F. Weather had let up so I showed Jr. the big tree and the skating rink (he was duly unimpressed, but then again so was I - last time I saw them I was younger than he is now - size has a lot to do with how you see things), and then we walked over to 50th on the 1 and rode up to 125th for a late lunch (it was about 2:00 as we passed Radio City). 110th/Cathedral Parkway station has been bombed at the south end of the northbound platform; there were also several homeless camped in the station. At 125th the escalator and stairs from the street to the mezzanine are under renovation on the southbound side so access is from the northbound side only. We dined at a favorite restaurant, Mi México, on Broadway between 123rd and 124th, where the Corona is cold, the food is good, and knowing Spanish is essential since no one there speaks much English. Then back through another delute to the 1 and on to Penn Station (seeing more homeless camped on the platform at 79th) and an absolutely packed NJT train (the 4:38) back to Little Silver. The door at the lead end of our car wouldn't open or close automatically. A woman of about my age or older who was boarding at Newark banged on the button several times in an effort to get it open; finally, she slid it sideways with such a slam that the entire car shook and she stormed down the aisle. The conductor had to tug at the door several times to get it to close and it never did fully close after that. Once at Little Silver, through the deluge once more to the van and back to the house. So if I sound like I need to be wrung out and hung to dry, IT'S BECAUSE I DO! Anyway, an interesting day in the City.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
SubBus (Mike) and I were doing some railfanning earlier today where we rode the Canarise Line to investigate the happennings at and around the Atlantic Avenue station. We met up at Broadway Junction at about 11:30 am to do a trip that was originally organized by Harry (High/Bridge Street). Actually, it was not raining when we met up at the Southbound Canarise platform -- but it was VERY windy.
At Atlantic, we saw the old control tower reduced to a mere skeleton and the K-1 tracks had been removed from the Pitkin part of the structure (in anticipation of a coming temporary switch between Sutter Ave. and the structure). From there, we got on a train of Slant R40's (lead #4446).
After returning to B'way Junction from Rockaway Parkway, we lucked out with getting an R-38 (lead car #4019) and found that by time the train went to elevated operation the weather had changed to a heavy downpour. AAMOF, while running along the raunt at 40+ mph Mike can attest to the fact that we were riding right into the storm as water came bubbling into the car from UNDER the storm door! Needless to say the surf was certainly up on Jamaica Bay and visibility was so poor that it was hard to see the signal system from a 10-car length away!
We doubled back to B'way Junction on the same set of R-38's (featuring 4032 as the lead), although being a Sunday this meant a hold-over at Mott Ave. of 20 minutes. The rain wasn't as heavy, but it was a steady drizzle by 2:30.
Funny thing we discovered: as we left the East New York platform of the A train I pointed out that a strange thing is sitting behind the fare control booth at B'way Junction -- a burned out fare control booth from 66th Street. Does anyone know what that's all about?
I think I'll let Mike fill in any blanks that I might have overlooked.
BMTman
Last night I saw a trolley apparently being tested on Girard Avenue. It was dark and I only saw it while passing under the Girard Avenue bridge on the Schuylkill Expressway, so I couldn't really tell if it was a modern or historic LRV they were runnning. But either way, trolley service is moving closer to being restored on Route 15!
Mark Michalovic
Report on elimination of booth clerks,
MOSTLY THROUGH ATTRITION
Peace,
ANDEE
Does the fact that an R143 was produced mean that the factory has finished the R-142A's? Or can the produce multiple types of cars at the same time?
If all of the R142's have been produced where are they ???
All four Mercer County NJT train stations reported increased daily passenger ridership during the year ending June 2000, according to an article in Monday's Trenton Times. Daily increases over the previous year were:
200 Trenton
500 Hamilton
300 Princeton Junction
A Princeton figure was not given, but Dinky ridership was up 40%.
Peter D:
If the V and W lines come to pass, thereby ending the D line at 34th Street, will you create a new cover for your excellent "Tracks?" After all, if the D isn't rolling on the Brighton, can't afford to be inaccurate....(tongue in cheek)
Yesterday (Sunday), I was Manhattan-bound on the Queens IND. The 'E' was running local, I was boarding at a local stop, and my final stop was on 8th Ave., so I was more than happy about not having to make any transfers. Imagine my surprise when we pulled into Queens Plaza, and running in tandem, parallel to my train, was another Manhattan-bound 'E' on the express tracks! I suppose command must have been trying to relieve a congestion situation, or maybe it had something to do with the testing on the 63rd St. connector.
Quickly, I decided to dash across the platform to catch the "express" 'E' because
A) I did not have a seat on my "local" 'E', and I saw available seats on the other train, and
B) I figured the "express" 'E' would leave first. I was right!
Still weird to have 2 'E' trains across the platform from each other. Those waiting at QP must have been very confused.
34% of Red Sox fans used the T and 8% used commuter rail to Fenway in 2000, up from 18.5% and 3.6% in 1996. Story in Boston Globe.
Does the DRR Museum run any of their equipment during the tourist season? By way of example I think of the Illinois RR Museum, where they have numerous pieces of restored motive power (steam and diesel) and rolling stock available for guests to ride on the ROW.
Anybody know what should I expect? When I was sworn in they said
Dont quit your jobs yet because people usually dont last more than a week. Why?Any Ideas
I too recall when the R-46's debuted on the F line in the mid 1970's. (They replaced the R1-9's, which I also recall riding very fondly.)
I recall that when the R-46's were new, they also had the glass partitions separating the horizontal seats from the doors, as the R-44's still do today. I thought the glass partitions were removed because of continuing vandalism. I don't know how or why the R-44's were spared this treatment.
Not sure if my first post showed up. This one has some additions.
Yesterday, I took the Metro to Union Station and back home. On the inbound trip, I got car 3201 in ATO heading inbound. They raised the maximum speed between Woodley and DuPont for the ATO, it is still a pitiful ride despite this. I was pointing out to my grandfather the speed control and cab signaling and he couldn't really see it so the driver opened the cab door and let us take a peek inside.
At Union Station, the fact ACELA started is evident. Many red signs are now blue. The employees are in the new uniforms. No sight of ACELA. I got as close as the door where gate E and F merge and go out to the tracks.
I also took a look at the miniature train display. I don't like the Norwegian theme.
Took the Metro home. Sixteen years after opening Shady Grove, the sign at the bottom of the south enterance of the station (the one that leads outside the Great Hall, not Union Station itself) now reads SHADY GROVE. It used to say Rockville. I got on train 2077 which was in manual control for some reason. We switched to ATO at Metro Center. The last car of the train, a 2000 series car, is one of the ones that displays blue dashes for the red line on its rear sign. The sign will look like this:
| RED |
I don't know if other cars do this or this is the same car, but I see some cars doing this every so often.
When the Brightliners (aka the R-32's and R-32a's) were refitted, why weren't grab bars installed on the ceilings of the cars? I ride the E/F line daily and often encounter heavy crowds that prevent me from reaching a grab bar. I have to rely on other people to buffer my body's movements as the cars round curves.
I am 6 foot 1 and can easily reach the ceiling of the car. Why not install grab bars on the ceiling so taller people can have something to hold in heavy crowds? For that matter, ceiling grab bars should be installed on the IRT Redbirds too, especially those that run on the Lex.
The three stations undetgoing renovatrion have reopened at 5am today. Work is not done but trains are stopping in both directions. I do not yet know when work will start on the Manhattan Bound plats.
I think artwork must be planned for the platforms since there are some plywood cutouts in the windscreen.
A full report will be posted 12/26/00 after I work Chauncey on 12/25.
It's the new MARTA car type. They are revenue testing now, and I happened to catch the one on the east-west line. Those are some phat cars. I took a bunch of photos of the interior and exterior. The ride is even smoother than the older cars. I thought the doors shut rather forcefully, and fast. Some features include:
blue and white color scheme, looks a lot better than the old orange and creme 70's jive colors.
electronic interior signs that display the train destination while the train is stopped in a station. When the train is approaching a station, it displays that station.
a 12 inch gap or so between the doors and the partion next the the seat, so exiting passengers won't block the door.
windows between the 'B' side of each car, so you can see in between cars, like the R142
rubber floors, finally
a pleasant sounding door chime, and you can only hear it outside the train
I overheard a couple conversations some ladies had about the knew car:
Woman 1:Hey isn't this one of those new cars?
Woman 2:Yeah, they need carpet in this shit
Woman 1:Nah, that carpet stinks
I agree
Another conversation later on (different women):
Woman 1:You think this train will be clean in a year?
Woman 2:Hell no
Woman 1:I like these new colors, it's better than the other colors
Woman 2:Yeah, they had that baby shit yellow color
(laughter)
Woman 1:that's right, that's the that color's name
They went on to say that they never see anything new, and it's sad they were getting all excited about new train. Hey, I see plenty of new things, and I'm still excited. What am I? A railfan?
I can't find the original post, but PLEASE don't tell me they're planning on changing Coney Island. I LOVE that place!
Hey all. I just wanted to remind you all that our SubWay Marathon is comming up and we need some of your help.
On Wensday I will post our travel plan and all comments/sugestions will be welcome. We also would like to know the best places to go to the bathroom and the best places to eat inside fare control.
We would also like some some SubTalkers to help post our progress on subtalk. Basically we call you from stations and you post where we are on subtalk. You could even take a .gif NYC subway map and X where we are and put it online. Anyway if you would like to make your services available during a specific time slot just e-mail me or pigs.
I'm sure you all know this one. If you feel under your seat, right under your butt, you'll notice that the 32 has a flat metal surface while the 38 has sort of a rough metal design. I like to point out ways to tell cars apart by touch for those, like me, who don't see very well.
My beloved R-62 beat the R-142! The R-142 were on the 6 line and my R-62 comprised 4 train came into 125 Street (we were going uptown). Passengers as usual rushed to switch trains, and both trains closed the doors at the same time. So that means the trains were going to start up at the same time. I was right, they started at the same time, but the 4 excellerated faster even with the switches the R-62 still was moving faster, and then 4 train took off, and left the R-142 6 train in the dust. East your heart out R-142 the R-62 still is the king of the trains right now. (only because the R-10 is not running)
Who will win the battle of the SubTalkers?
Salaam Allah (24 bouts 23-1 21 KO's), All KO's came when person hogged railfan window. Lone defeat came against little girl in Washington eating french fries. Has higher answer to question ratio than opponent. Only person to have all bouts on tape.
Follo (22 bouts 22-0 22 KO's), Has compiled perfect record without throwing a punch, keeps asking the same question until opponent passes out. Has devastating 1-2 combo with Manhattan Bridge flip-flop and South Shore Staten Island express bus routes in his arsenal. In between bouts, passes time as a TA RTO superintendent.
Fight night: Friday December 21st 8pm on public access, right after the guy who plays Barbra Streisand's greatest hits with spoons.
A zman179 enterprises production.
Today I waited from 4PM to 6PM at 50st for an F train to go through Queensbridge (even cut a deal with God).
At about 4:15 an M train went to Queensbridge from the 6th ave local, suggesting it came through Chrystie (Manny B leads to express tracks, Willy B to local). At every stop the T/O buzzed the C/R twice. At QB it went OOS and returned to Manhattan. It was the only M to do this.
At about 6:00 PM, a signal failure that caused huge delays on the 6th ave local had just been fixed, and after the first few Fs of a long line of backed up ones went through normally, a sick passenger at 5th ave caused more delays. To relieve the congestion, the tower sent an F to Queensbridge (the C/R even changed the signs to F to 21ST/QUEENS | 6AV LOCAL). It pulled into QB at the Queensbound track, there was a clear track all the way to the Queens Blvd line, but it instead went back to Manhattan (carrying passengers).
1. Is there a S/A or any person who can tell me about the procedure for fare evasion in progress. My friend told me that when he lived in Brooklyn that he would wait for the train to come to hop the turnstile because the S/A would chase them. Is that procedure or was that person goin beyond the call of duty chasing him?
2. If there is a procedure what is it if you notice a bogus Metrocard, turnstile-hopping, or something of the like?
Thanks
Mike
According to Jon Belcher's webpage on Scott Moore's NE transportation site, it still says that the type 8 has not been put back in service yet due to the derailments over the summer. What is the MBTA and Breda currently doing about this situation, and is there any idea when the low-floor greenies will return? -Nick
Quick question about the 7 (my apologies if this was asked and answered earlier):
Why have they put a timing switch between Queensboro Plaza and 45rd Court House Square going to Times Sq? The curve isn't that sharp going into 45rd. Was there a problem?
Also - why the timing switches between 5th Av and Grand Central going to Flushing?
Thanks
Flx7595
Tuesday's Times has a human interest story on the renovation of Times Square station
Why do people make stipid, racist, offensive comments when they talk about racial minorities? Yet they get offended when a comment is made about whites? Can it be that a number of subtalkers are a bunch of racists? Seems true.
Everone here is from a different background and I advise everone respect that.
If you don't want someone to talk about you using offensive lanuage don't do it to someone else. This is not the first time this happen.
If this continues, it will be no different then www.aryannation.com
and I don't think you want this to happen, so behave yourselves.
I know you guys out there have been hearing me complain about the Sea Beach route not going over the Manny B for so long that some of you have tuned out. What's a mystery to me is why I haven't asked what tunnel the train has been re-assionged to since the mid 80's. Is it the Montague Tunnel or the Rutgers or someother? I'm still not sure. Bail me out again guys. Please.
To be filed under the heading "Transit and Weather Together" (sorry Todd!):
A Blue Line train led by a pair of 2200-Series cars derailed on the Congress branch early this morning, around Pulaski I believe. There were no reports of injuries, and heavy snow on the tracks was apparently a factor.
In a seperate incident, an SUV went over the median barricade on the Dan Ryan Expressway and ended up on the Red Line ROW. During the previous big storm another SUV (surprise, surprise) ended up on the Blue Line ROW along the Eisenhower Expressway. Again, no injuries were reported in either case and disruptions to CTA service were minimal.
I'll post links if I see any related stories in the local papers.
-- David
Staying warm in Chicago, IL
Where can when can you redeem old tokens?
I don't recall seeing in any of the posts that I read exactly when the new mngt. of the TWU takes over ... January sometime ?
Just wondering if it will be Willie or Roger at the "private" negotiations. Maybe Roger will send Gil (he still has a job in the union).
Mr t__:^)
According to recent articles, the number of token clerks will be reduced by attrition. If that means there will be fewer on duty in stations with more than one, then fine. If it means more un-manned stations, then not so good.
This will open an old debate (now many new topics are there), but I'd rather go with OPTO, and have one worker on the train, then have two on the train and none in the station. If you aren't going to man the station, you should close it. The risk of crime and vandalism is too great.
Maybe you could have unmanned stations during rush hour, but not evenings and late night.
Three questions.
1. If a train stalled under the East River, is there a safe place for passengers to walk to shore?
2. Are all of the longer runs under the river in two seperate tubes or in one structure?
3. Is it true, i.e. Peter Dougherty's trackmap book, that the M train meets up with the Montague Street tunnel AFTER it goes under the river? That would be real cool.
I have always been intrigued by underwater tunnels. My dream is to one day walk through the Joralamon Street Tunnel. (Legally, if possible.)
Train Buff Headquarters
New version of Peter Dougherty's book? I know what I'm getting myself for a late Christmas gift!
Well I got a call from TA. They first said to report tomorrow, but they called back and said to come on Friday. I must bring along a $50 money order from the post office and birth certificate among other things. I will let you guys know how things go.
Train#1951Mike
.....Absolutley late. This evening I figure to take the IND/BMT home, so I went to JaySt-Metrotech. Waited for 10 minutes, then a C comes along. Since it dont stop at the end of the platform, I was screwed. Then a R44 A stop and of course, it was packed so I had to let that one by too. After another long wait and a whole bunch of F's stopping and going in both directions, another C pulled into the station. This C was a mix R32/R38. Then after another wait, a R32 pulled into the station. I figured another C but it was an A, lead car 3856. This train was heading to Far Rock. It must have been a refugee from the E. But anyhow its back to the IRT for me tomorrow.
Train#1952Mike
.....Absolutley late. This evening I figure to take the IND/BMT home, so I went to JaySt-Metrotech. Waited for 10 minutes, then a C comes along. Since it dont stop at the end of the platform, I was screwed. Then a R44 A stop and of course, it was packed so I had to let that one by too. After another long wait and a whole bunch of F's stopping and going in both directions, another C pulled into the station. This C was a mix R32/R38. Then after another wait, a R32 pulled into the station. I figured another C but it was an A, lead car 3856. This train was heading to Far Rock. It must have been a refugee from the E. But anyhow its back to the IRT for me tomorrow.
Train#1952Mike
Just thought I'd let the SubTalk Readers know of a sighting in Concourse Yard today. I passed by on Manhattan Bound 4 Train, observing the yard, and found that the R-62s in the Fordham Collision have moved elsewhere. The 11 car train is gone (with 1370), and now 8 of the 9 cars from the other train have also departed. What gets left behind and sits across from 1437 (split Union Square Casualty)? 1369. It would appear that 1369 is going to spend her days at Concourse with 1437, unless it gets scrapped right away. A single R-62 is hard to find these days, except for wrecks that get set out to the side.
1369 was divorced the hard away, being severed at the link pin rather than coupler.
1368 and 1370 are lost causes? I wonder if there's any way to fix these. There are other wrecked R-62s that could possibly serve as donors.... Is transplanting body parts practical?
-Stef
Today there was a Q train of R-32s out. One of the cars (3546, at conductor's position) has the #1 storm door painted light blue on the inside and outside. It is nowhere near a fresh coat of paint. You can't even tell unless you get close to it. The color may be silver, since it looks like the R-44 stripe, which appears to me as light blue.
They're heeeeeeeeeeere................
-Stef
This time on the PM rush. There's got to be one of three reasons for this:
A) There's a shortage of available R40M/42 cars in working order
B) They're no longer dedicated L line cars
C) heypaul's apocalypse theory is coming to fruition
Hmmm, what could it be???
I keep seeing a post about Stillwell Terminal. Are they planning to rebuild it? That would be a travesty.
At around 9:30PM R142A's 7290-7181 (front to back) pulled into Grand Central. There was an announcement that it was out of service. It appeared to be doing simulated stops. There were three people (two with orange vests) at the T/O's position. And two (one with orange vest) at the C/R's position. The signs were set for 6 Brooklyn Bridge. There were someone's articles of clothing and some other junk on the seat near the A end of 7286 :).
I found this pretty interesting since I almost never see the R142A's for some reason. I see the R142's all the time, being delivered or in service.
Too bad they don't deliver the R142A's the same way as the R142's. That way I'd be able to catch their numbers as they're being delivered.
Shawn.
Railpace Hot News currently has several items of interest to a number of SubTalkers, including:
SEPTA HOLIDAY TROLLEY
US&S AWARDED CONTRACT FOR NJ TRANSIT ASES CAB SIGNAL SYSTEMS
METRO RECEIVES FULL FUNDING GRANT
Why is it that more stations don't install HEET Turnstiles in stations for overnight use? Is it reason that there has to be a MVM at the station so people can refill or buy Metrocards as the only mode of entry? Or is it reason that S/A deter crime and with a HEET there is no S/A so more chance for crime?
Thanks
Mike
I have noticed that the I-beams on most station platforms have about a foot and a half of concrete at their bases. I have seen them remove and replace this concrete during station renovation. What is the function of this concrete?
Peace,
ANDEE
What station masquerades as Wall Street in Die Hard: With A Vengence?
Peace,
ANDEE
V is not welcomed by some,
CHILLY RECEPTION FOR V
Peace,
ANDEE
It's about time,
BUH BYE TO THE SLICES OF METAL
Peace,
ANDEE
Spoke to the new V line superintendent(E & V lines are being handled by one supt.) and he said that he expected the new V line will operate via 63 St instead of the F.
So I told him about the public meetings, media clippings, etc. He said that regardless, 63rd St will be the new route.
Now I'm thinking, either:
1) He knows something that we don't
2) This supt. has no clue
3) Nothing has been finalized yet, anything could change
Just thought I'd pass this along. Personally, I hope that the V does go via 63 St and they leave the F alone. But right now, I have no clue as to what to believe. I guess that I'll just have to wait and see what really happens.
Delivery delays are pushing back the reopening of the airport monorail until at least mid January. Story in Wednesday's Star-Ledger.
New Long Island Railroad Prez.
NEWSDAY STORY,
Peace,
ANDEE
The Subway Series 7 Train with the Blue Mets ends was seen operating towards Flushing leaving QueensBoro Plaza at 8:20am this morning. All cars still have the subway series signs and the Mets/Yankees Logos.
Just thought you should know.
I don't think it is for the holidays but riding home last night on the last Q train of the day from the railfan window was a great sight. After leaving the bridge entering the portal they have strung work lights the entire length from the portal of the Manhattan bridge up to DeKalb Ave. Even the non-used (for now) tracks to the south side of the bridge have work lights. I can only ASSUME that this is for the neccessary work and inspection to get the south side ready for revenue service.
Catch a Head End Ride on a Slant, grab your Track Book and take a ride and see the amazing connection they put in all lit up (for Xmas >G<).
Why does the Astoria El have almost exclusively home signals on the center track? Is it because it was intended primarily as a layup track?
Dave
Just heard that former Mayor John V Lindsey has died, he was 79.
RIP
ANDEE
Was taking the wife Xmas shopping at Newport mall. Took the PATH train from 33rd St. to Pavoina/Newport. As we went through the connection (wye) on the upper level of the 33rd St and Hoboken trains you pass the tower (lower level northbound no tower). They had it all decorated with lights and even had a TREE outside the tower all lit up. Only saw it for a few seconds but I thought it was KEWL!!
How does that tree grow without any sunlight?? >G<
Peter:
Your excellent "Tracks" book shows the trackways north of the BMT 57th Street-7th Avenue stop that were built by the BMT in anticipation of being awarded the route to the Upper West Side, which of course, was never built.
As long as you're including trackways built but never used, perhaps you should also include the trackways leading to the Roosevelt Avenue terminal station and the station itself. You could also include the turnouts at 63rd Drive and Woodhaven Blvd on the Queens Blvd IND.
I know that you've included a section on Lines Not Built in your book, but perhaps references to the trackways and turnouts that were built and then never used could be even more helpful?
Thanks for a GREAT product.
'F'? 'V'? Whatever.
I've been thinking about this as I read the posts about the 63rd St. Connector, the new V train and changing F service.
Seems to me the only way you will entice people into using the 63rd Street tunnel is to eliminate use of the connection between the 53rd Street Subway and 6th Avenue (the connection between 47th-50th Rock Ctr. and 53rd St./5th Ave). After all, how many people from eastern Queens are headed for Roosevelt Island or Lexington & 63rd?
For example, if I'm getting on at, say, Woodhaven Blvd., and my destination is a midtown office building on 5th Avenue and 49th St., am I gonna get on a 63rd St. train, which runs locally throughout Queens, then north of, and then west of my destination, or am I gonna take the first local I can get to Roosevelt Ave. and transfer to the 6th Avenue Express train which will use the 53rd St. tube? As long as a 6th Ave. train is taking the more-direct 53rd St. tube, and running express to boot, who's gonna ride the 63rd St. tube train?
It would make more sense for the 63rd St. trains to connect to the BMT Broadway express, which would spread-out Queens IND trains more equally among the 6th Ave., Broadway, and 8th Ave lines. More importantly, it would give eastern Queens' 'R' riders a Broadway BMT express train as an alternative, should their destinations be somewhere downtown.
jean shepherd will be remembered by us baby boomers as a very real presence in am radio in the 60's and 70's... he was on wor radio in the evening and was a master storyteller and observer of people... he spoke without any guests or phonecalls and conjured up a spell of life in a midwest steel town, or in the army, or in new york city with a masterful story telling gift...
he died within the last year... late monday nights, or early tuesday morning, at 5:30 am, max schmid a producer of old time radio shows on wbai-fm 99.5 fm, devotes the last half hour of his show "mass backwards" to replaying one of shepherd's shows from the '60's... this week he played a show broadcast in december 1965, in which shepherd read a rather long beat poem by grant reynard called "rattling home for christmas" about a young man who was working on a "celery" freight train who was on his way home to his family at christmas time... the story was written in 1941, years ahead of the 50's beat generation... reynard really captured the allure of the railroads for people seeking another life... shepherd reads the poem, with a background of steam engine sounds, that in itself is an experience... the young man finally reaches home, only to discover the lure of the railroads is overpowering...
the entire show is available on real-audio at the following website... i was unable to download it wit webtv, but if you remember shepherd i think you will enjoy the half hour show...
rattling home for christmas
jean shepherd will be remembered by us baby boomers as a very real presence in am radio in the 60's and 70's... he was on wor radio in the evening and was a master storyteller and observer of people... he spoke without any guests or phonecalls and conjured up a spell of life in a midwest steel town, or in the army, or in new york city with a masterful story telling gift...
he died within the last year... late monday nights, or early tuesday morning, at 5:30 am, max schmid a producer of old time radio shows on wbai-fm 99.5 fm, devotes the last half hour of his show "mass backwards" to replaying one of shepherd's shows from the '60's... this week he played a show broadcast in december 1965, in which shepherd read a rather long beat poem by grant reynard called "rattling home for christmas" about a young man who was working on a "celery" freight train who was on his way home to his family at christmas time... the story was written in 1941, years ahead of the 50's beat generation... reynard really captured the allure of the railroads for people seeking another life... shepherd reads the poem, with a background of steam engine sounds, that in itself is an experience... the young man finally reaches home, only to discover the lure of the railroads is overpowering...
the entire show is available on real-audio at the following website... i was unable to download it wit webtv, but if you remember shepherd i think you will enjoy the half hour show...
in the case the link doesn't work, here is the address... www.flicklives.com/mass_back.htm
rattling home for christmas
In discussing this issue in another thread with Peter D., I recalled something odd about these trackways. It seems that while the city-bound side has a trackway ramp that (apparently) leads directly from the terminal station to the main line tracks, the Jamaica-bound side turnout comes to a wall very shortly after the trackway begins. Odd, I think. Was the terminal station only supposed to have one track connecting to the main line tracks? I though that there were 4 trackways at the terminal station.
Help!
As many have experienced at one time or another, the summer heat in the subway is unbearable. Old cars are single handedly responsible for excessive heat build-up in stations and tunnels because of their HVAC systems which are two part; compressor/condensor and evaporator/blower assembly. How will this affect traction motors, microprocessor brakes, and electronic LCD displays? Will old cars continue to operate with new cars?
I'll be there Jan 6 and Jan 7. Does the light rail go to the airport? I've seen maps where there is a stop at SeaTac, but when I go to airport info, the only transit mentioned is by bus. Is the light rail route proposed, or what? From what I can tell, there's plenty of transit around Seattle Center, Downtown, and the International district. How about places like Gasworks Park? That place seems cool. How long would it take to get to the Tacoma Narrows Bridge from downtown or the airport? I don't want to miss a chance to see where that bridge fell. I don't want to spend more than 2 hours round trip to get there however, since I'm only going to be there for about 28 hours all together. I'll arrive Sat. morning around 10:00, and leave at about 2:00pm on Sun. Could I go from SeaTac the Tacoma Narrows, and then to downtown Seattle?
R-143 cars will be arriving in 2001 to operate on the 14th street Canarsie line using the new signaling system (CBTC) Communication Based Train Control. See a production image of car #8101 at plant in Kobe, Japan at: http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r143/r143-at-plant.ipg
Article in the Philadelphia Business Journal on the SNJLRT and its impact on the areas to be served. It also goes a little into the operating companies and describes the cars.
"Bangkok’s train, running on empty
Dec 21st 2000 | BANGKOK
From The Economist print edition
Pretty but not popular
IT IS clean, smooth, fast and frequent. At every station stroll uniformed guards, truncheons in hand, deterring muggers and graffiti artists. Teams of moppers and sweepers keep platforms pristine. Air-conditioning chills the carriages and a soothing voice, in English and Thai, tells passengers where they are. Compared with the grubby, overcrowded underground systems of London, Paris and New York, Bangkok’s train on stilts is a sparkling success.
Launched a year ago, after five years of building—and many more before that of murky dealings over contracts—the train is supposed to help cure the Thai capital’s notorious traffic congestion. Gridlocked and thick with exhaust fumes, Bangkok is one of the most difficult cities in which to get around. But with 600,000 people tempted on to the Skytrain each day, said the Bangkok Transit System Corporation (BTSC), the Skytrain’s authorities, Bangkok might “breathe again”.
Not yet, though. Despite the distribution of 1m leaflets and much publicity, only 170,000 passengers are thought to take the train each day. Its 25 stations and 23km (15 miles) of track, running along two lines, serve only part of the capital and stretch only some of the way to the city’s airport. Most people seem to find it too pricey: a short trip costs the same as a taxi and up to three times as much as a bus.
Low ticket sales mean that BTSC is not getting the revenue it hoped for. The system cost $1.5 billion to build and to succeed it must expand. A connected underground system is planned within a couple of years, if the cash can be found to build it. Until then, the Skytrain offers a high and uncrowded vantage point from which to gaze on to the city’s blocked roads."
At rockaway Blvd. on the A where woodhaven meets crossbay and rock blvd, etc. at the platform going downtown there is a buzzzer by the 4 car marker, it says 1 buzz for lefferts 2 buzz for Far Rockaway, is it still used today or do radio communications replace that, cause i never seen it used by conductors
My story might be inaccurate, but my personal recollection is distinct. Let me keep Lindsay's politics out of it. It was John Lindsay, I believe, who insisted that NYC subway cars could be air conditioned. It was the TA who insisted that cars as short as NYC subway equipment could not be - there had been several unsuccessful experiments, some of which yours truly rode. Then came the newly renamed "PATH" with short air conditioned cars! Lindsay was more than apoplectic, as the story I heard at the time goes. He demanded that the TA stop the construction of the R40's (they now had the safer and better looking ends) until and unless the remainder of the fleet be air conditioned. A Mayor has to be listened to even when capital-funded projects are underway.
Lo and behold! The "impossible" came to be. To this day I will praise the man for that aspect of his work. I go back to the days of inhumanely crowded Lo-V's and R1-9's that required platform pushers to pack us in. I remember only open windows, storm doors, clerestory vents and fans for air movement and not for cooling. It was hell! Don't let anybody romanticize riding in the summer rush hours during that era. He or she was clearly not on the trains.
So, whatever you and I think of him as mayor, he was truly one of the SAVIOURS OF THE SUBWAYS which, without air conditioned equipment, would have continued to realize the radical and deserved decline in ridership in that era. While automobile air conditioning went from a luxury to standard equipment, the rider-hostile TA continued to ignore reality. Let's give a big cheer to John V. Lindsay for pressuring the TA to bring the steaming subways into the modern era. No matter what your political feelings about the man, this was something he really demanded and accomplished.
What are the advantage and disadvantages to electric push-pull vs electric MU.Train Dude, Jeff H., and other engineering types feel free to chime in!
Heard on "Traffic and transit on the two's" on KYW at 5:02 this morning: Kelly Drive is closed because of a CSX derailment on the bridge over the Schuylkill River and Kelly Drive involving an overturned tank car leaking sulfuric acid into the river. Noxious fumes are the reason for the closure. Subsequent news story added that 8 cars of a 37 car train derailed on the bridge and 5 overturned.
"Seven Amtrak trains were delayed for two hours and about a dozen New Jersey Transit trains on the Northeast Corridor, Midtown Direct and Coastline lines were canceled last night while a malfunctioning railroad bridge was fixed, officials said. Between 10 p.m. and midnight, passengers on the trains and at both Pennsylvania Stations, in New York and New Jersey, waited while Amtrak workers fixed the Portal Bridge, which connects New York City and New Jersey and which failed to lock shut after opening to allow ship traffic to pass, the officials said. An Amtrak spokesman said that the malfunction was due to cold and wet weather, and that workers locked the bridge manually."
from NY Times Metro Briefs
Maryland has agreed to provide $30 mil to CSX to fund track and signal improvements in order to improve MARC service on CSX ROW. During the two year contract, CSX will pay into the fund whenever on-time performance slips below 90%, and Maryland will add to the fund when on-time performance exceeds 90%.
The state also approved $9 million to improve Amtrak ROW used by MARC.
Story in Thursday's Washington Post.
I will soon put a page up on my web site with some New York City subway trivia, but here's the thing: I NEED SOME SUBWAY TRIVIA! Here are the topics and categories that I may put up (possible answers in red):
Stations & Structures
Longest (Platform Length)
Shortest (Platform Length)
Longest distance between stations Howard Beach-Broad Channel
Shortest distance between stations
Highest platform above surface Smith-9 Streets, Brooklyn
Furthest platform below surface
Largest station complex Times Square, Manhattan
Widest platform (not including ramps from platforms
Narrowest platform (not seperated by stairs, columns, or other platform obstructions) Wall/William Streets, Manhattan
Oldest structure
Signals
Longest distance between (Excluding blind stops, reverse direction signals, and WD signals)
Shortest distance between (Excluding blind stops, reverse direction signals, and WD signals) 2704/J-2704A/J at 138-Concourse station, approx. 39 ft.
Tallest Signal
Shortest Signal
Oldest in Use
Trains & Tracks
Longest in Regular service (# of Cars) 11 cars on trains on the 7 line
Shortest in Regular service (# of Cars) 2 cars on trains on the Franklin Av Shuttle
Longest in Regular service (feet) 10-car trains of 60' cars: 605 ft.
Shortest in Regular service (feet) 1st: Franklin Av Shuttle--150 feet; 2nd: 42 St Shuttle (Tks 1 & 4)--154 feet
Fastest spped recorded on a regular service train
Most complicated junction/interlocking 1st: Broadway Junction; 2nd: DeKalb Avenue
Sharpest Curve
Signs
Most Useless, given location found (RTO) "7" stop marker at 71-Continental station
Most Useful, given location found (RTO)
Most Confusing (RTO)
Most Misleading Station signs Recently covered-up mosaics reading "Jamaica and Rockaway" At the 65th Street station in Queens
Others to be suggested by people on this board.
Discuss this amongst yourselves and I'll see what you all can come up with.
The MBTA has said for a long time that when the new Type-8s are in service, they will run some D/Riverside trains with three cars (max has been two cars since the PCCs were retired!).
This week, "3 Car Train Stop Here" signs have gone up at stations along the Riverside Line all the way to Lechmere.
But since the Type-8s are still sidelined with problems, and there is no information on when they'll be returned to service -- nor when deliveries will again resume -- it may be some time before trains actually stop at those markers.
NOTE: If you don't want to read my trip report please just scroll down and read my observations and questions and answer them if you can.
My trip home from winter break started out as my absolute worst Amtrak trip and suddenly turned into me best. Here's what went down. I arrived at New Haven all pumped that my old train, 145, had been moved back an hour and replaced by #93, an all reserved train that departed 10 earlier. Also, as I got off my bus I saw that the old engine pit, now the new engine pit after the old new pit was taken out of service, had 2 AEM's, an Acela Painted AEM and a wierd trainset that consisted of 2 F40's sanwitching 2 amfleet coaches. This train set was the new Springfield shuttle. Instead of having cars get detached and sent on their way, Amtrak passengers change to these new push pull trainsets. Its interesting to note that these 2 car trainsets have twice the power than 6 car NE Directs. Well I went to the ticket window and to my horror I discovered that #93 was sold out to Philly. The weather induced backlog at Boston Logan airport and Amtrak's new love affair with reserved trains were looking to spite me. I was about to give up and wait an extra hour for the unreserved 145, but I then had an idea. Since I was planning to meet Pigs at New York Penn Station, I would take 93 to Penn and using a no-extra-cost stopover, catch the next train out of Penn to Philly. Instead of a wave & greet I could spend some quality railfan time w/ the old porker. As luck would have it the next train out of Penn wasn't the 145, but Keystone train 647 departing NYP at 2:40 and arriving 30th St. at 3:59, 30 minutes b4 145.
After I got my tickets ($38) things started to fall appart. The Subway had a huge line and by the time I got my lunch abd ran to the platform the train was arriving (loos of photo op). As expected the train was mobbed and I was only able to get a non-trackside isle seat (next to a cute girl though :) ). Anyway from my point of view the train crawled along Metro North even more than usual. Because I had to walk to the bus station and from PATCO home I had dressed for the cold weather. However, the heat in my car was set to about 90 degrees and by the time I reached Penn you could have served me for Christmas dinner.
I come up the esclator (why did Amtrak do away w/ all the stairs?) in to the mockery that is called Penn Station and its even more dark, cramped and crowded than I remember. I see the new digital board (and the old flippy board that still up there) and I start looking for Pigs? He said hw would be wearing a red jacket. Adter about 10 min I find a phone and I call his cell phone. It turns out he was about 50 feet away. We meet (he's taller than I pictured, but isn't everybody) and we head to the LIAR section because they aren't jerks about ticketed passengers being on the platforms. We talk and I'm dreading going back into the waiting room and fighting the mob to get down those little bitty escalators. At aboot 2:25 we move over on the LIAR east walkway to track 13/14. This is where my luck begins to change.
As we go down the steps an Amtrak train pulls in w/ 4 cars. I ask the engineer if it was the Keystone and it way. SCORE! No needing to "board" at one of those stupid Amtrak "gates". We then walk to the end of the platform and watch Train 19, the crssent depart. Its 2:29, remember this fact, its important later on. I say goodbye to pigs and get on the last car with a wodniw nafliar. As we leave I go back to the rear door, but the conductor comes out so I sit down for ticket inspection. He's sees my scanner and says I can stand in the rear vestabule!!!!!!! To make a long story short it was the ride of my life!!!!!! I had a clear view of everything and it was in full sterio surround sound. AEM-7 + 4 cars = insane acceleration. Every time we went through an interlocking snow would fall off the train and create a cloud behind us. Here are some observations:
-The North River Tubes are full of leaves and crap. They need to be vaccumed.
-The North River tubes are still fully electrified w/ 3rd Rail.
-The Secacuas connection basically 4 tracks the main line. The connection will have 2 side wall platforms, not islands. No TSR's were in place through the work zones.
-I saw DOCK tower in all its glory.
-Between Newark and HUNTER NJT has concrete ties while Amtrak uses wood.
-The Aldene connection at HUNTER is electrified for some reason.
-There are 6 tracks from HUNTER to LANE for that new NJT station. The station is almost done.
-The old Elizabeth station is gone. The Current station still has a green Penn Central sign!
-Our train did not stop at MetroPark, but they switched us over to local anyway all the way to Princetown Jct.
-The NASSAU crossover should be restored.
-MILLHAM should not, MILLHAM tower is visable from FAIR interlocking.
-I got good pics of NASSAU and FAIR towers.
-GURNDY is only a 1/2 crossover.
-We passed train 19, the Cresent (E60), on the local SEPTA track just before HOLMES interlocking. Why would CETEC route the lowley Keystone b4 a long distance primier train?
-At this point I put my camera away.
-We passed an ACELA express trainset going north (time=3:30, rear power car =#2000). Was there another failure? Was this a deadhead move?
-We passed a SEPTA train and then kept pace with it about 100 feet back. .Exelent photo op, but my camera was away. By the time I got it we passed shore interlocking and the best shot I could get was it about 500-1000 feet away. Rats!
-There is a new conductors uniform to go w/ ACELA. Its now mostly grey.
I had a talk w/ the conductor regarding Acela (see other post) and I then used SETPA and PATCO to get home. On PATCO, while I was getting my overpriced ticket, the train arrived. As I scrambled through the turn style some jerk yelled at me (let's see you try to manage a duffle bag through a PATCO faregate buddy!). I charged down the stairs and hit the nice tile floor where my legs flew out from under me and I hit the deck. I tried to get up and slipped again. After floundering for a bit I managged to lunge me and my bags into the train. To make matters worse that guy I pissed off kept eyeballing me all the way to Ferry Ave.
Just before my train pulled into 30th St. I had a little chat w/ the nice conductor about ACELA express. I had seen an ACELA heading north at an off hour and I wondered if there had been another failure. The conductor said he wouldn't be surprised, the ACELA trains were too high tech and they always had a technition on board. I asked him if ACELA was like Metroliner II and he said "exactly".
We went on to explain to main problems. Basically the trains are too high tech. the example he gave was there there is a sensor that prevents the train from taking power if a door is open. These frequently malfunction. You can reset them up to 3 times, but after that the system shuts down. He said that this is a railroad, you can go 150mph with all the doors wide open. It dosen't matter. You just as dead if you fall out at 125 as 150. The train shouldn't be delayed due to an ajar door or faulty sensor. He also said there are these airliner style luggage compartlemts that also have to be closed for the train to move. Its like the was designed with reasons to be delayed.
This reminds me of another French designed locomotive tha came to the US. c.1910 the PRR bough a French de Glenn Atlantic compound steam locomotive. They were the hottest thing in Europe. However within weeks of arriving the de Glenn started to fall appart and constantly break down. It just wasn't up to the riggors of American railroading. Is ACELA another case of a Europian design failing under American demands?
It was on this date in 1968 that Apollo 8 blasted off on a then-historic mission: the first manned flight around the moon. I remember it well. Liftoff was early in the morning, about 7:30 EST. We were on our way to Saturday school in Brooklyn, and our bus driver had a radio tuned in to the broadcast.
That was right about the same time the R-7/9s began appearing on the Eastern Division, to keep this on topic.:-) I spotted those cars on the LL for the first time a few weeks later, on January 5, 1969.
Is anyone aware that the East New York scrap-metal giant Lieberman-Koren appears to be closed?
For the past month on my commutes to B'way Junction I've noticed the absence of activity at that site. All of their trucks/cranes/backhoes, etc., have been mothballed and only this week have I noticed that a number of these vehicles are missing from the property.
Looks like this old-time ENY business (dating back to at least the 1930's) has gone belly-up. And to think that just last year NY&A put in a new spur for them.
Anyone with additional info on this topic would be greatly appreciated.
BMTman
Just a test to check something out. If an image appears above, consider the test passed.
i have received several requests from the newly sworn in train operators to provide them with the same high quality study materials that i provided before the train operator's exam....
question 1.
it's your first day out on the road by yourself... you're the 1021 q out of the beach, and as you pull into kings highway you notice that there are 3 railfans standing by the 10 car marker sign...
you should:
a. blow your horn, bypass the highway, and hope that they don't put up a post on subtalk...
b. tell them that the 7th and 8th cars of your train are a pair of mismatched r32's with black flooring and an intermittent 60 cycle hum in the pa system, and hope that they go back to investigate...
c. take out your industrial strength spray can of air freshener...
d. ask them if they were at the last era meeting in which 512 slides were shown of the lawrence street station before and after the installation of flourescent lighting...
e. ask them to explain the meaning of avid reader's series of posts concerning heypaul's search for the fountain of youth in the lenox tunnels...
A few weeks ago I took a mental health day and took yet another 'last ride' on the Newark PCCs. The driver told me that it would be running this Saturday, Sunday and Monday for holiday shoppers and travelers.
The NJT website doesn't say anything about this. Does anyone know if this is true or not?
CNN reports that New Jersey Governor Whitman will be nominated as Environmental Protection Agency director tomorrow. I believe that New Jersey is one of a handful of states which does not have a lieutenant governor. This brings up two questions:
Is it known who will take over as governor?
If yes, is anything known about his/her attitude toward bi-state cooperation, specifically with regard to the Port Authority?
Today I turn 18 years old. Its scary..... I remember when I was 8 year old I took my fav ride on the E and F. Its been a fun 10 years, And I won't stop until I become a Motorman/Engineer. Either for LIRR or the NYC Subway. Actually I don't care for whom I work for, as long as I operate some kinda Train.
This is probably another niave question, but what is the basis of the allocation R type numbers to MTA rolling stock. In other words, what happened to Rs 69-109, or Rs 111 to 141 (not counting R127/134)?? Why the gaps in numbers, which seem to be getting larger??
Seasons greetings to all subtalkers from Canberra, Australia, where it is currently 37 degrees C, or 98 degrees F.
As the sun has now set and the Festival of Lights has begun, I would like to wish all Sub-Talkers a Happy Chanukah.
The knowledge I have gained from this board and the friends I have gained gives me a warmth like that given off by the menorah and its candles.
With Christmas approaching, I decided to take my dad's old American Flyer trainset out of the attic, and get it running around the tree. It is amazing it still works, since it is nearly 50 years old. The company (owned by Gilbert in New Haven, CT) went out of business quite awhile ago, so finding parts is hard too. But the locomotive still puffs smoke, and the caboose lights up the end of this wonderful, yet small scale train.
One reason I put it up this year was sort of a salute to the year of transit we have had in 2000; NJT started a new light rail, the R142 subway made its debut (I've anticipated this happening for a few years now), and North America's first ever High-Speed rail, Acela Express began running to. Oh what a fabulous transit year it was!! I'll be looking foward to the R143s and the opening of the 63rd St. Connector in 2001!! -Nick
I just recieved my MetroCards for the Jan 9th trip. One was a $15 Earth Day collectable card. I assumed that like most special design cards the obverse logo (The yellow and orange and blue MetroCard design) would be replaced with some leafy green Earth Day design. Well to my shigrin I was greeted my the same old MetroCard logo and on the reverse, in place of the instructions, was a wimpy little Earth Day thing. Is this typical? Why do all you collectors go ape over these? Why won't the MTA produce full front side special edition cards.
I was reading in my friend's copy of Popular Science (Jan 01 issue, I think) about a revolutionary new type of concrete called "Ductal," made by a company named LaFarge. What makes this concrete so amazing is that it's bendable. If you had an I-beam of steel and an I-beam of Ductal, the Ductal is stronger, lighter, and cheaper. This stuff has got to be the greatest thing in concrete than...(boy, I need to get out more)...whatever. The article was talking about how it could be used in skyscrapers in earthquake territory. But think about it, this stuff could be used to make subway tunnels in earthquake prone places like San Fran and LA. Or, on elevated structures in Chicago and New York. Concrete is more soild and resistant to the enviroment than steel, it would mean quieter and longer lasting els. This stuff has unlimited possibilties in all aspects of construction. What other ideas can you think of where Ductal would benefit subways? Anyone know anything else about this stuff?
. . . Cinderella.
That's what they treat the line like. I work the C four out of five days a week. And the C is always taking a backseat to the other lines.
I start out at Euclid. As I just get outside the Hoyt-Schermerhorn St station, the train stops. Three minutes later, an A train rumbles by, getting into the station first.
After trailing behind a slow A train, we get to Canal Street where, guess what? An E train comes crashing into the station. On goes the holding lights on 4 track signalling me not to close the doors because the E will be leaving first. Can't inconvenience all those E riders now, can we?
Now after trailing behind the E train up to 42nd Street, things start to look brighter. We easily cruise into 50th St., then proceed to go into 59th St. Suddenly we slow down to a crawl, then stop. Why? A B train is being crossed in front of us!
I finally enter into 59th St. Check my watch. We're now three to four minutes behind schedule. I try to make some time, but that B train in front of me makes the efforts futile.
The icing on the cake comes at 135th Street. We're stuck at the station because the B can't pull into 145th St. lower level because a D train is allowed to go before B into that station.
Finally, after seemingly endless delay announcements, we pull into 168th Street, six to seven minutes late. Soon as we get in, I hear an announcement to see the dispatcher, where I know I'm going to have to explain where I lost my time. Twenty minutes later, I head back to my train where I know it's back to the same thing, only now in the opposite direction, back to Euclid.
Come on, people! I know the C isn't a glamorous line. I know it doesn't have black floors like the E, or have run R44s, R46s, or R68s like the other lines do. But it's the backbone of the 8th Avenue Line. You are almost guaranteed a seat. If there's a delay in A or E service, you know that if the C comes along you'll get where you're going, slowly but surely.
Show the C line some love!!
One track is expected to be back in service by Friday afternoon. Announcement from Norfolk Southern.
Good news for big steam fans in the Northwest. Spokane Portland and Seattle 4-8-4 700 will make a 4 day, 742 mile excursion from Vancouver, WA, to Spokane via Pasco, and return. Information here; more info on #700 here.
Took the 10:44AM train out of Sea Cliff. For a change we were right on time, but still no auto-announcements (they never work!). First car closed as usual, and after Mineola it was packed. Nice and fast on that stretch between Mineola and Jamaica. Get off and change to the NY train at Jamaica. M-1's arrive, this time they had the first two cars closed. I got in the first open car, and there were no seats. Finally conductor opens up the next car. This is one gripe I have with the LIRR, they keep cars closed just so conductors have to walk less, meanwhile the cars are more crowded, just because the conductors are lazy.
The rest of the ride was fast enough, it was nice going past the huge Sunnyside yards. It appears they have little if any 3rd rail, as the NJT and Amtrak trains parked there use overhead catenery wire.
Got to Penn and walked over to the 8th ave line, and checked out the CPW express. An uptown A of R44's came, and the ride to 125th was not impressive. It was slow the whole way, even a Hippo B we caught up with at 81st, we did not get far ahead, it moved faster than our train, even making the local stops. Came in a half minute after we got to 125th.
Took another A of R44's southbound. Again, a slow, unimpressive ride. The R44's seem quite slow, the 38's do alot better on CPW. And there were alot of stretches with green signals but the train was slow. It was fastest right before entering 42nd.
Got off at 34th street, had lunch at Manhattan mall, then into the dash. And a "Q" of Slant R40 came, and the ride through the dash was sweet as usual.
Got off at Chinatown, stayed there for a few hours, since that is the only sane place to hang around NYC at this time of year.
Then went back to Grand, with an uptown B. The Hippo was not any fun in the dash. Got on an F at 34th, and looked out the "semi front window". Good fast ride right through to 179th with no congestion ahead. Queens bound is pretty fast on Queens Blvd. And the R46's seem to do alot better in the speed department than the R44's.
Got off at 179th, waited for the Q76 and just made an N20 to Hicksville at N.Blvd. I'm glad I did, because the next one wasn't for another 45 minutes (even though it's rush hour), and the traffic was a nightmere. Bumper to bumper from Bayside all the way to Roslyn. Must be that good 'ol holiday traffic. Took an hour and 15 minutes from Francis Lewis to Glen Cove road in Greenvale.
The north shore needs better rail service, it is just too congested. I'm sure the south shore wasn't as bad.
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains
This is my service plan during the construction project on the Stillwell Ave. terminal. Run the "B" and the "N" trains through the Stillwell Ave. terminal and terminate them at Ocean Pkwy. The "D" and the "Q" trains can also terminate at Ocean Pkwy. "F" trains terminate at W. 8 St. and go through Stillwell Ave. terminal to be turned around at Coney Island yard. This way there is adequate subway service to and from Coney Island during the entire length of the construction project even if it means that the Stillwell Ave. terminal is closed to passengers at times during the project. Two tracks at the Stillwell Ave. terminal should remain opened so that trains can be moved in and out of Coney Island yard when necessary.
BMTJeff
Last Saturday night, I was coming back from Trainland on Sunrise Highway when I saw Sperry Rail Systems #806. It looks like something right out of an old Lionel catalog. The unit (in the traditional Sperry Orange & Black) looks like a large truck with Both rail wheels and very large tires. When I saw it, it was doing about 45 MPH on Sunrise Highway heading east. Has anyone else seen this piece of equipment?
Two guys (one of them wearing a "creamsicle" hat)were at Myrtle Av at 10:10 am and at Marcy Av at 11 am.
Anyone here guilty of this? I only want to know so that I can put some faces to the names.
We talked earlier about the difference between TA and LIRR benefits.
I found one more BIG difference today:
It's called "bumping".
Example: You are a LIRR Conductor. The guy next to you is also a LIRR C/R. The other guy has more seniority than you. He finds out that you have a better job than him. He can legally "bump" you out of your job. He now has the job that YOU picked, and now you have the job that HE gave up! I believe that this is limited to once a pick.
Could you imagine this happening in the TA? Yikes!
I am Planning a tour of the Eastern Divisioon for 9am 12/28/2000. Meet at Fulton Street, J Platform front end towards Jaamica.(TYhe station has two levels. You want the level that goes toward Metropolitan Ave and Jamaica Center.)
STOPS include:
Lorimer-- to see the renovation Work
Myrtle--full of history and side trip for the M line
Wyckoff-- interesting platforms
Fresh Pond--Interesting layout with bus depot
Back to tje J for Crescent Street-We'll walk under the line to see the rermains of the structure for the removed Chesnut STreet Inclione which ocnnected to the Atlantic LIRR. We'll walk under the crscent street structure to Cypress Hills to see the stub of the removed Cypress Hills TERMINAL.
Eastern Parkway next and a trip to Canarsie with stop off at ATlantic and Livonia. Back to the J, next stop Sutpthin and Last Stop Jaamica Center. We'll change for the E and return via Queens Blvd to see the 63rd street work from our train.
Cost-- Bring your fun pass, wear walking shoes and dress warmly!
We should be back to midtown by 1pm (I have to leave the tour at 1pm to go pick. The group can continue after I leave the group.)
does anyone know more about owen smith, the artist who did the 36th street station murals, and who i think did the mural inside the ill fated r142a's?
does he work in a wpa deco style in his regular work?...
Have a frayliche Chanukah! Eat some jelly doughnuts (sufganiot) and potato latkes - 'tis the season!
Jersey politicians (Congressman and mayor/assemblyman) and NJARP president complain about proposal. Story in Friday’s Jersey Journal.
Before anyone gets offended by this message, I am simply reporting and commenting on what I saw on television.
Last night I was channel surfing and came across an "intresting" show on HBO called G-String Divas. It is a documentary-like series on HBO that shows a day in the life of topless dancers.
I just happened to catch a glimpse of the end of the show. But in the segment, there is a girl who is dancing in the club, but the scene keeps fading to a fantasy of hers. Her fantasy it appears is to do an exotic dance in the subway. The scene they filmed, it appears, was done in an actual NYC subway. The subway car # was 3455 - the number could be seen near the operator/conductor's booth. What was strange about the whole thing was that the girl danced topless in a subway car that was full of men. It also appeared that the subway car was moving through the tunnel and then through a station.
My question is, and I hope it's not a dumb one, would that be possible/legal to do? That is, could HBO actually rent a subway car for film production and have it turned into a "strip club on wheels"? If the subway car actually passed through the stations, wouldn't people wonder what the heck is going on? The whole scene was so outrageous and unique, it made me wonder if the subway car was simply a very cleverly built sound stage like the car from THE INCIDENT. I guess the question also is: is there an actual car #3455 in the fleet?
Is it possible that the whole thing was filmed in the area of the NY Transit Museum station?
I have a question about "The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3", which I assume everyone here has seen numerous times.
As you know, the climax of the movie is the kidnappers' getaway plan, which has them sneaking out an emergency exit while the 6 car they hijacked hurtles southbound with its passengers to its doom.
Question: The movie establishes that after hijacking the train at 28th Street station, the hijackers moved the train southbound to a point just south of the 18th Street stop, and then severed the first car. The back 9 cars were then moved backwards.
Now, in 1974, when the movie was released, could a 6 train sitting on the southbound track between 18th Street and Union Square actually make it to the South Ferry loop without having to switch tracks even once? I don't think it's possible. For one, if the 6 continued on the local track past Brooklyn Bridge, and didn't go around the City Hall loop track, then it would've continued onto the tracks that are now used for layup south of Brooklyn Bridge (Tracks 1 and 2). According to Peter's book, those tracks were disconnected from the main line in the 1960's, so it stands to reason that they were no longer connected in 1974!
Also - even if the 6 made it as far as Bowling Green, to get to the South Ferry loop, it would have had to take the switch just south of Bowling Green station that would lead to the SF loop and not the Joralemon Street tunnel. Taking the switch at that speed would've derailed the train for sure, well before reaching the loop. No?
A couple of observations about that movie (which I happen to love):
- "28th Street" was actually shot at Court Street before it became the Transit Exhibit in 1976 (you can see a glimpse of an IND-style signal as the 6 pulls out of the station). The actual 28th Street is a 4-track station with side platforms along the local tracks, while the 28th Street stop in the movie looks like a 2-track station with a single island platform.
- 18th Street, though mentioned a few times in the movie as a reference point, was closed 25 years before the movie was released and therefore would not have been present on the Trainmaster's board at Grand Central, as the movie suggests.
- There are no emergency exits of the type used by the hijackers on the East Side IRT; again, this was shot in the tunnel between Court Street and Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts.
“Cold weather cracked the steel rail outside the West Falls Church Metro station yesterday morning, forcing a section of inbound track to be shut down and delaying Orange Line passengers.
At 7:54 a.m. [Thursday], Metro's electronic train protection system sensed a break in the rail and automatically stopped all approaching trains. A work crew placed a temporary brace on the rail, which allowed service to resume until workers could return last night to weld the rail, transit officials said. A crack in a rail happens once or twice each winter.”
From Friday’s Washington Post Metro in Brief section
Here is our plan for our Jan 9th All Line Subway Trip. Please tell us if any part of our plan is un-doable, stupid, redundant or just plain dangerous:
SIRR to St. George
SIF to South Ferry
1/9 to 242nd St.
9 to 207th
Walk to 207th on the A
A to 145th
D to 205th
D to Bedford Park
walk to 4
4 to end and then to 149th
2 to 135th
3 to 148th
Walk to 145th
D to 47th-50th
Q to 21st
Walk to Queensboro Plaza
N to Astoria
N to Lex Av.
R to Roosevelt Ave
7 to Flushing
7 to 45 Rd
Walk to Court Sq
Transfer to 23rd F
F to 179
F to union Tpk
E to Jaimaca Cntr.
J to Myrtle Ave
M to end
M to Broad St.
walk to Rector
R to 95th
R to 59th
N to Coney
B to 36th
anything to De Kalb
D to Coney
F to any G connection
G to Court Sq
transfer to E
E to 42nd
transfer to 7
7 to Queensboro Plaza
N to Times Square
transfer to E
E to World Trade Center
walk to Chambers St.
2/3 to Atlantic
transfer to 4/5
4/5 to 6
6 to Pellham Bat
Bx12 to Pellam Pky.
5 to Dyre
5 to E180th
2 to 241st.
2 to 149th
4/5 to GCT
Shuttle to Times and back
4/5/6 to 51st.
F to Jay St.
C to Franklin Ave.
Shuttle to Prospect Park
D/Q to W.4th
A/C to Jay St.
Walk to Lawerance St.
R/N to Times Square
Transfer to A/C/E
A/C/E to 14th
L to 3 walk?
3 to end
3 to Franklin Ave.
2 to Flatbush
2 to Hoyt
Walk to Jay St.
A to Lefferts
A to Rockaway Blvd.
A to Far Rockaway
A to Broad Channel
Shuttle to Rockaway Park
Also tell us where we can find bathrooms and/or news stands.
this, the 2nd in a series of questions to help the newly appointed train operators adjust to the job, is an essay question... although the train operator's job involves the selection of numbers and letters at route selection boards, we also want to encourage the young train operator to develop his communication skills so that he/she can provide clear and concise directions to assist his passengers to evacuate the r142 cars when they either derail or burst into flames unexpectedly...
here is the situation... you are operating a set of slant 40's on the e line, where they have been assigned by trainmaster diamond, so as to fuel a week's worth of posts on subtalk... there are 3 men who are standing by the railfan window, and you overhear their conversation.. they are 3 veteran train operators, out for a day of railfanning... however, as they talk, you realize that it is not ordinary railfanning... they are railfan bashers, who are out looking for unsuspecting railfans to bash... sometimes they are merely verbally abusive and ask the unsuspecting railfans a series of rapid fire questions about unloader valves, c wires, and lightning rod arresters aimed at humiliating the railfan and proving to him how little he knows... other times, they whip out their cameras with their high intensity halogen flash, and shoot a series of rapid fire pictures in the railfan's face...
after a while, they knock on your cab door,and introduce themselves to you... they start telling railfan jokes and look at you to see how you will react...
unknown to them, you have been a railfan almost since the age of 1, when your parents abandoned you on a cold saturday morning on the brighton local... you were rescued by a friendly motorman, who helped find you a home in the r16 car sitting in the schoolyard on 86th street... you have been a railfan since that time, and have a vast collection of transit memorabilia, including all of heypaul's posts on subtalk, bustalk, greyhoundthroughexpress, and the recovering psychopath's message board...
in approximately 200 words, describe what actions you will take... will you admit to being a railfan almost from birth and risk loss of your handles and even worse?... should you stay in the closet, and laugh at their ruthless jokes?... should you report this incident to dirty harry who has been on the trail of these rogue train operators?
It is my understanding that there was an ordinance prohibting the use of wooden subway cars in NYC tunnels in the early 1900s, as a result of some serious wrecks, with fires, involving them. As a serult, 55 of the L.I. R.R. class T-39 (wooden) Trailers (coaches) were placed out service and sold in 1917 to the Washington Baltimore and Annoplis Railroad.
I am doing some research on the cars and would like any inforamtion about the ordinance or the cars.
Rudolph the rusty Redbird
Had two shiny marker lights
And if you ever saw them
You could almost say they glow
All of the other Redbirds
Used to laught and call him names
They never let poor Rudolph
Play in any rerouting games
Then one foggy Christmas eve
The MTA came to say
Rudolph with your marker lights so bright
Won't you run off the pier tonight
Than all the other Redbirds
Shouted out with glee
Thank to good old Rudolph
They'll all be coral reef!
Thank you, thank you.
Shawn.
The MTA has told its rider's council that the agency is not opposed to a new free Metrocard transfer between the Lexington/63rd St station and the Lexington/59th Street station. The agency is concerned about "abuse" of such transfers (definition or source of abuse not specified). This could be implemented as part of the new 63rd St connector service.
If you support a free transfer here, it is important that you appear at the public hearing, Long Island City HS, 14-30 Broadway, LIC, at 6PM on Jan 23. You can pre-register to speak, or register at the hearing until 7pm.
Please try to come. This has a realistic chance of happening. If you can't, send a letter of support to the MTA:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
Govt and Community Relations
Metropolitan Transportation Authority
347 Madison Avenue
New York NY 10017
Send copies of correspondence to E. Virgil Conway and/or Operations and Planning (370 Jay St, Brooklyn NY 11201, I believe).
Does the 14 St. Carnasie lines 8th Ave still have that heavy ozone fog hanging in the air along with that overpowering smell ? i used to go there as a kid just to smell that ozone,what caused that ?anyone remember this was in the 60's.
This little clip from Newsday http://www.newsday.com/news/daily/wadi1222.htm
-Hank
Looks like everyone in my family has plans for Christmas and I'm not invited, friends have plans, and I got no girlfriend, so this will be my first Christmas alone, without my Mom.
So I'll be riding the (probably empty) subways and going the only place where stores may be open, Chinatown.
I know it's a bit off topic but it sux to be all alone on Christmas.
My cookie has apparently disappeared. Has anyone had this problem today?
.......with me now an official conductor trainee. I will start on Jan 2. What must I look out for in first couple of weeks of training?
Train#1957Mike
"Stand clear of the closing doors please."
I rode on the new train from Brooklyn Bridge to Canal Street. The car seemed very bright. Is that because other cars are dark? Opinions please.
As evident in this photo, a dirty turboliner in NY state livery sits in Penn station. Some here have said that all turboliners were overhauled and put into new acela livery, but I guess that is not true. This photo was taken at around 4:15 this afternoon.
-Dan
Has anyone seen the movie called "The Yards" starring James Caan and Faye Dunaway? It has not gotten much if any publicity and is about private firms that are contracted to rebuild subway cars and their components and involves some police drama and a corruption scandal. Can anyone identify the tunnel they were in during the site tour or was it just a sound stage? Was the shop complex 207th Street Overhaul Shops? I would like to hear some feedback.
I realize there was a thread a few days ago on this, but now that more R142As are on the #6, could we expect a few R62As to be shipped to the corona yard at anytime now? -Nick
This holiday season I have really been thinking a lot about my old hometown. My neighbor loaned me a videotape that he said was all about Brooklyn, but warned me that it was very violent.
The movie was "Out For Justice", a 1991 release, starring Steven Seagal, and I have just watched it. Has anyone else here seen this piece of work? I have two questions about the movie.
1) Why is the New York Transit Authority listed in the credits?
2) Has anyone tried to keep a body count of the lowlifes that were sent to their eternal reward during the one day period of time that this movie covered?
After watching this 91 minute epic I no longer feel homesick for Brooklyn, in fact I don't even seem to have any holiday spirit anymore.
i think there was some discussion of some railfans getting together today and doing parts of the canarsie line, broadway junction area, hblr, and a ride across the harbor on a float barge piloted by the bmtman... i just wanted to know if it is still on and when... i have no intention of going, but i just wanted to have the perverse pleasure of knowing that several of you are out there freezing your asses off in the pursuit of the pleasures of railfanning... it would warm my heart as i stay indoors mending my straight jacket and thinking of more ways to irritate my fellow subtalkers...
The following was in a Saturday New York Times article about weather-related travel delays:
"Hundreds of passengers taking Amtrak's City of New Orleans waited more than 15 hours -- six of them on board -- for the train to leave Chicago on Thursday night after minus-9 cold froze up cars and locomotive fuel lines.
When the train finally left, it traveled only 20 miles to Homewood, Ill., where it stopped because the crew had worked the maximum shift. Amtrak scrambled to get the passengers to their holiday destinations by bus, plane or other means."
I know I will be in town on Thursday....sure would like to meet [again in some instances..],some of you!
A 40-year-old man walking on the track near the Woodbridge station was killed around 2:20 AM Friday by a North Jersey Coast Line train bound for Long Branch, according to a Philly Inquirer print edition "New Jersey News in Brief" item. The engineer saw the victim before impact.
Hello, there. When will the GO service through the 63rd St. tunnel begin? I believe it will be in early 2001. Please confirm. Thanks.
For better or worse, I think each of us in our own way, takes stock in our own lives at this time of the year. Despite our many individual blessings, many find that their lives are not moving along the track we want to be on or we're not as far down the track as we thought we might be. With that thought in mind, I strongly recommend a book called "Who Moved My Cheese" By Spencer Johnson MD. It's a very quick read - about 2-3 hours for the average reader but will put your personal and professional life in a whole new perspective. And if by chance you are happy. satisfied and comfortable in your life, then this is must reading for you.
Happy Holidays
So from what I read the Eastern Division trip AND the Sickout are both canceled? Please respond to this message to wether or not one, both or none, are canceled. If one is still on please clarify it in the post. Thank you.
Mike
"Mr. Mass Transit" As I've been called on occasion.
For those interested in such things, I have learned that(thanks to a new source), NJ Transit is in the process of renumbering the CometII and Comet IIB fleet, which consists of 161 cars.
The following shows the changes in fleet numbers as they become available.
PRESENT - QUANT - NEW NUMBERS
5610-5706 - 97 - 5300-5396
5752-5758 - 7 - 5397-5403
5760-5771 - 12 - 5404-5415
5800-5824 - 25 - 5416-5440
5135-5145 (cab cars)- 19 - 5441-5459
5147-5154 (cab cars)
5749 (nj coast line clubcar)- 1 - 5460
Peace,
ANDEE
MTA daily ridership for September was the highest in nearly 30 years at 7.1 million. The increase in daily riders since introduction of MetroCards in 1996 is greater than the total daily ridership in each of Chicago, LA, Philly, or Boston. Announcement from MTA reported by Railpace's Hot News.
I just saw the December show of Transit Transit and I don't know about you but I really object to their bastardizaton of the 12 days of Christmas. Opinions, anyone?
Peace
ANDEE
Does anyone know if there ever was an underground connection between the A/C subway station at Broadway-East NY and the LIRR East NY Station, which is two blocks south along Atlantic Avenue?
...as part of a pilot program arising from collective bargaining, including Maryland MTA bus, light rail and subway systems and expected to cost $3 mil to $6 mil per year.
from Saturday Washington Post "Metro in Brief" section, scroll down to fifth story.
Okay, it's 9:40 and I just spent 2 hours waiting at 30th St Station (Philly) for a 7:35 train that's still in New York. Why? Signal Problems. I was told that signals are out between Priceton Junction and Trenton. ALL NE Corridor trains are delayed with no arrival estimate. Trains that were due in Philly around 4:15 this afternoon are still stuck near New York.
What kind of signal problem takes over 5 hours to fix? They really should have better response times than this. Either they've been slacking big-time on maintenance, or their emergency crews are ill-equipped, inept, or both. Even if trains had started running again right after I left at 9:30, my train wouldn't have arrived for almost 2 hours. I changed my reservation to a 12:15 train tomorrow - I hope things are running smoother by then.
I was at the Roosevelt Jackson heights station today. I saw a 4 or 5 car Train of R46 come in. Front sign says special. Luminators on side say special. Can I assume that this was the 63rd street tunnel School car for Motormen? After all, my friend is a T/O on the R, and he told me Motormen are signing up for this back on December 11, 2000
My dad is a B/O from QV. He had a passenger who works for the LIRR. He was talking to her on my behalf because I wanna become a Engineer/Motorman. So she says to my Dad "if he wants to come be a Engineer for the LIRR, he should get a copy of the rule book. Because one must know the Rules word for word. Also, I was talking to a Engineer and he said that Engineers with Seniority are the ones who start in LI. The new ones start from Jamaica, Brooklyn or NY. I was glad about that because I live near the Rosedale station, 10 min away by the Far Rockaway Train. So is Metro North the same way? Allowing new Engineers to start from Grand Central? Because if I worked for them, it would be better to start from GCT then some where like Croton Harmon or Poughkeepsie. Also, is there a way to get a copy of the Rulebook? Please email the answers to Paulroach2001@yahoo.com in case I am not on tomorrow. MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!! TO ALL RAILFANS HEA!!!!
I've taken the E and looked out the front window many times before, but today I noticed something I never noticed before. Just after Canal street on a WTC-Bound E, there appears to be a track way and tunnel that dead end to the left. What was that a planned connection to?
I notice that all LIRR stations have a gray box marked T, and I've heard phone ringing from these boxes.
I've also seen them trackside as well. Are they emergency telephones? Why do I hear them ring sometimes?
As many of you know I'll be alone for Christmas and probably will be going out. Nothing will be open here on LI, but what is the situation with Queens. I imagine Flushing and Chinatown will have stores open since this is a chinese area and they don't close for holidays. But otherwise isn't the city dead and the subways empty? Is it safe?
And it's gonna be really cold, that won't help either.
Beware of this car!!!!!!!!9395 It has VERY BAD SPOTTED WHEELS the breaks sqeak REALLY LOUD and rides very rough. This car is the 2nd North motor the WONDERFUL R33s I like them alot is 9327 also starting to sound a little bad. 9412 9413 were taken off this train and replaced by 2 non Mets cars 9352 9353 3rd/4th south motors.
The entire motive for the rerouting of the "F" and creation of the "V" is to relieve the congestion at 53rd/Lex station of "E" and "F" riders that use the station as a final stop or transfer to the "6" train there. With the new scheme, if you need the "6" to get to work or school, you'd take the "R" at any Queens Blvd local stop, and change at 59th St/Lex, rather than at 53rd St/Lex, and not need to hiss and groan when the "G" shows up instead of the "R".
It's too bad that the "F" won't be able to connect with the "6" line at all in Manhattan, particularly for those embarking from eastern Queens, and heading to Hunter College or uptown- those riders still need to take the "R", "V" or "E" express and switch at Lexington Ave, in addition to switching at 71stSt/Continental, if they're coming from eastern Queens.
Of course, I think that the new "W" should run express to 71st/Continental rather than to Ditmars, and the "V" should run all the way to 179th St. Astoria does not have the demand that the remainder of central and eastern Queens does, and thus just the "N" line is sufficient. Having the "E", "F", and "W" express trains serving Queens Blvd will allow for an express train utilizing each of the East River tunnels (53rd, 60th, 63rd), and will eliminate the craziness of all of the people transfering at 71stSt/Continental, Roosevelt Ave., and Queens Plaza, particularly when you already have all the bus-to-subway transfer commuters already creating over-crowded platforms at 74thSt/Roosevelt and Queens Plaza. Forget running the "Q" into Queens-just switch the "W" to 71St/Continental rather than to Ditmars.
Oh yeah, and also I've recommended having the "F" Brooklyn terminus be Church Ave. and the "G" terminus be Stillwell/Coney Island. Think about how many more "F" trains you'll have available during rush hours by shortening its overall trip time by 15 minutes- probably about 2 extra trains per hour during peak periods. And how many stations will the new shortened "G" line serve? By adding 10-12 stations to its service, you really won't need any more trains, and you'll have a train yard at one of its terminus points, which you won't have now. Switching at Church Ave. from the "G" to "F" won't be nearly as bad as transferring at any of the Queens Blvd. line express stations.
So from what I read the Eastern Division trip AND the Sickout are both canceled? Please respond to this message to wether or not one, both or none, are canceled. If one is still on please clarify it in the post. Thank you.
Mike
"Mr. Mass Transit" As I've been called on occasion.
i just heard that tomorrow will be bitter cold, with wind chills running 10 or 20 degrees below zero... this gave me the idea for a festive holiday bike ride, starting around 5 am tomorrow morning... the early time will ensure that we will have at least 2 hours of riding without the benefit of the sun's rays... we will meet in front of nathan's in coney island... do not go in, as it is warm in there...we will go up on the boardwalk, head down to sea gate, then return east to brighton beach... from brighton beach we will proceed to the belt parkway bike path at knapp street in sheepshead bay... we will proceed east to flatbush avenue, then head south to the marine parkway bridge... passage over the bridge on bike is not possible due to construction, so we will have to wait in the cold for a van which will take us over the bridge... the wait for the van might be rather long, as i am not sure if it will be running on christmas day, nor do i even know if operates during the winter... if after two or three hours it appears that the van is not running, we can ride back to the bike path, and continue east to cross bay boulevard, and then head south to the bridge which will take us
into the rockaways... assuming we don't get blown off the bridge by some nasty cross winds, we will then proceed to the rockaway boardwalk, and ride west to 116th street for the conclusion of the ride... we will be met by bmtman who has promised to treat all survivors of the ride to a hot chocolate and a nice slice of blueberry pie at the famous franklin shuttle cafeteria nearby the train station...
note: if by 5:15 am, i have not arrived at nathan's, you will know that i am not as crazy as i pretend to be...
Norfolk Southern can give the Norristown-to-Reading right of way to SEPTA if SEPTA resurects the Enola branch abandoned by Conrail in 1990 and gives it to NS. This would increase the projected cost to $2.2 bil (from $1.4 bil), but SEPTA feels it would be well worth it, especially with U.S. taxpayers paying 80% and Pennsylvania taxpayers paying the rest.
Story in Sunday’s Inquirer.
At this times I would like to wish everyone on subtalk a very Merry and healthy Christmas and Happy Hanukkah. Also now would be a good time to thank everyone for all the info that we receive here all year long. Have a great one people.
May EVERYONE here who celebrates have a joyous Christmas day.....And to our Jewish friends a belated Happy Hanukah, and to all those who celebrate, a festive Kwaanza...WHEW! even wishing people Happy Holidays these days is exhausting! LOL...ENJOY everyone.....
1) Can the downtown E use the lower level platform of the 42nd st station? Both sides(can a southbound E get to the northbound lower level track easily?
2) is the maximum trains per tunnel still at 30ph? But scheduled at 27 for practicality?
3) How does the connection to the 63st tunnel work? Only from 36st or from both 36 and QB? Are there any other stations involved?
4) Are there logistical, personnel, union, track, capacity problems involved in special rush hour only service?
is there any truth to the rumor that an unexpected high wind yesterday afternoon caused the car float piloted by bmtman aka "capt. ahab" to end up 300
feet west of montauk point near a certain mysterious abandoned military station?
For those of you who keep wondering about this, I'll be thinking of you as I sit in New Lots Yard from 0000 to 0800 this Christmas morning. On a Sunday into Sunday schedule, I figure I'm good for 1 OK and put-in. Drill work ought to be non-existant, since 1.) I can't believe the guys in the barn will want anything, and 2.) it's been about 10 months since I last worked a yard job at New Lots, so they'll have to find me a TSS to re-acquaint me with the yard - fat chance on Christmas. Then it's rush home, open presents and rush out to Long Island for dinner and two days (nights) off.
Hope every one enjoys themselves, whatever it is you're doing.
I would like to wish a happy holidays to all. Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, and Happy Kwanza. Wish you all the best!:)
-merrily,
turnstiles
Forgot to mention when I was on the E the Saturday they had WD's before and at the Canal street station activated, on the WTC bound track. So why did they put them in?
Dope Wars actually has some transit content. You, as the dealer uses mass transit to get around, and they actually got the name of the transit systems right!
No railfan cartels though.
R-142As 7291-7300, are here on the property and are operational. They were spotted on Friday evening running south into the portal at 149th Street and 3rd Av, heading presumably to Westchester Yard.
The prototype 142A, 7211-20 was also spotted going south earlier on Friday, and were heading to Westchester Yard, presumably.
7301-05 and 7306-10 were spotted on two separate days at Unionport Yard.
R-142s 6421-25 were observed in road testing on the White Plains middle on 12/18, while 6411-20 were also being tested up and down the 2 line, I wonder if they'll be next to enter service.
The sets of 6326-35 and 6336-6345, have been broken up. After initally entering service together, 6331-35 and 6341-45 have now been placed together and were road testing on Friday.
Locomotives 53, RD351 (ex R-22), and 55 headed up the 6426-30 delivery on 12/19 with Loco 885 trailing, long nose forward. I don't see locomotives running often with the long end at the front. Loco 53 and RD351 returned yesterday to pickup loco 50 in a loco transfer.
So if I have counted up all the cars, we should have: R-142 6301-6355 and 6361-65, as well as 6411-30, a total of 80 cars. R-142As are 7211-7315, a total of 105 cars. We now have a grand total of 185 cars. With these cars continously coming, how long will it be before they start putting redbirds into storage, or permanent retirement?
Also, what's running on the 6? Two sets of 142As? 7221-30 and 7261-70? Report please....
-Stef
An Amtrak train hit a house today while it was being moved. The house had gotten snagged on electrical wires over the tracks. I heard this on Newsradio 88.
Alright, New York Area Railroads is back at nyrail.cjb.net The site has been redesigned and many more photos have been added visit now and please leave me comments. I need input from everyone to make the site better for everyone. Thanks. and I hop you all enjopy it.
-Dan
A guy decides to cross the tracks at Franklin St. on the #1. Almost hit by a #2 and then killed by a #1. With this utter stupidity, he deserved it.
Click here
Excerpt from contract list plan, sandwiched between "Buy new stair rails - 29 months" and "Install Backflow Converters - 12 months" in the October section of the 6 month "Eye on the Future" for NYCT:
A35903
CONSTRUCT TRANSFER BETWEEN
COURT SQUARE STATION & COURTHOUSE SQUARE STATION
QUEENS
$1M - $5M
This project is to construct a fully accessible pedestrian transfer between the Court Square and the Courthouse Square stations in Queens. All the existing station elevators will be rehabilitated into a state-of-good-repair, and the existing stairs between the subway platforms and the mezzanines will be reconfigured and expanded to increase stairwell capacity.
Duration of Contract 18 months
Supposedly this has started already.
The reason I ask is that somewhere else on the board someone said it was not a full transfer, but only a MetroCard one.
Saturday:
At 21st Queensbridge, the door is held for 3 minutes by some guys waiting for their friend to buy a card, swipe in, and run down the stairs. Meanwhile, an OOS N bound for the layup has waited so long to enter 57th that an in-service one N and R were stacked behind. Tower orders it onto the express track, even though we haven't passed yet. It gets ready to reverse into the downtown-level layup at 63rd. Oops, the shuttle is already on that track. We stare at each other for about 3 minutes. Finally, tower decides to routes us onto the uptown express track, since the other shuttle was already north of 57st. The C/R makes no special announcement, but takes a few moments to switch cabs. "57st. 42nd next." Of course people thought the shuttle was bound for 21st and got a nice surprise. We switched back to the appropriate track on the switch south of 57th. I'm pretty sure no passenger train since the 1980s has gone over that switch with passengers on it.
It's gonna be real cold on Christmas day, so will the TA store trains underground? I've heard that when it's real cold (low 20s for highs, teens at night with biting wind) that the TA stores trains on underground express tracks. CI may store some B's and Q's in the dash,
the Lex line may park their 4,5 trains on the Lexington express, and there may be E,F trains layed up on the express track on Queens Blvd.
I wouldn't be suprised if they did this tomorrow, since ridership will be real low and they don't want trains frozen up for the Tuesday rush.
But where do they store the trains on the 7 line in very cold weather?
I might just cut back my outing tomorrow to Flushing, Queens only, since it may be a bit too cold traveling around the system, especially with a biting wind through that railfan window on the 7. Chinatown is large and there are gaps where there is no shelter from the wind (esp around Confucious tower, so it may be too cold.
With winds of 20-30mph and temps only in the low 20s, wind chills will be 20 degrees below zero, and exposed skin could freeze in a matter of 5 minutes, so better stick with Flushing where everything is close by.
And if I want a burger Burger King is open!
Is tomorrow schedule a regular weekday?
Train#1962Mike
After the Manny B rehab, I assume the B will be going uptown on CPW local on the weekends? Is this correct?
Train#1963Mike
Opinion poll: Who believe that Amtrak's Acela train fare is too high? I believe it is. New Britain, CT to Washington, DC is about $98 for a round-trip ticket. Amtrak's Northeast Direct service from Berlin, CT (services New Britain, CT) to Union Station in Washington, DC is $136 from Monday to Thursday (round-trip). Acela will not serve the Inland Route (generally New Haven north towards Springfield, MA). Thank you for your time and see ya later! :>
Well, as I thought my bike wouldn't start in this frigid weather, so heypaul is on his own this morning.
As I understand it, he will bike the Rockaways and stop at around 12:40 near Edgemere this afternoon so he can stare into the sun to make sure the rare Christmas Day Eclipse goes off as scheduled. I expect we will get a full report later today.
;-)
BMTman
In service on the 2, today, 12/25/00!!! A Christams Gift from Santa???
-Stef
After looking at the MTA website for GO's, I came across this for the N and R lines:
Uptown trains skip Prince, 8, 23, and 28 Sts
All times, 12:01 AM Tue, Jan 2 to midnight Sun, Mar 18
Uptown stations are being rehabilitated and modernized.
Trains stop at 14 St.
Does this mean that the N and R use the express tracks from after Canal Street to 34th Street going uptown?
Thanks
Most of you who post here regularly know of my unsuccessful hunt of many years in trying to find some of the steel signs from the old gate cars.
Last Spring as a substitute of sorts I purchased an old side rollsign showing destinations in an eBay auction from Subway Al. When Al sent the rollsign I found it to be in excellent condition, mounted on two rollers, with years of subway grime from use on one of the old Standards. I spent weeks trying to devise some method of mounting the sign in a fashion to display one destination at a time. I finally set the sign aside in frustation when I could not come up with a workable plan.
My wife Barb secretly contacted a cabinet maker we know, and this morning she presented me with a beautiful 22" X 12" maple signbox with a plexiglass front. The rollers were mounted in it, and there were two custom made knobs on the right side to enable me to change the sign to whatever I wanted to see. I can't tell you what a wonderful surprise this was, considering that I had all but forgotten the sign in recent months.
I will continue my futile hunt for the gate car signs, but this is sure a great substitute.
Note to Doug--I thought you might get a chuckle out of knowing that when I got my Christmas gift, Franklin Av was displayed in the viewing area. I am currently displaying Crescent St!
Early 1950's , I will still a child like 7,8,9 years old. Living in the Bronx, mom takes me downtown on the D train. Many Santa Claus visits, with luck see a few Flyer or Lionel train displays. Enjoy the neat window displays. and all the Christmas magic. Mom knew how I loved Penn Station so if we weren't running late we"d visit that most awesome of American train stations [not the oversize subway station of today]and I could dream of the faraway places the Pennsylvania went, of course with thoughts of connections farther west at Chicago.The timetables for western roads were in the rack with the PRR's. [So here I am in Montana on the ex NP line]
Highlights: the R1-9 on the D train but then that took second place as the cars were still almost new to me,, later I got to love them.
The best: riding the High-V's on the Broadway-7th Ave. Exp. up to 181 st, even the elevator ride then was fun, rising from that deep station. Please mom, don"t take the A train instead of the Broadway. I can't stand those funny looking cars with no motor sounds.Usually we took the Broadway; till this very day I've loved the High-V's and the Broadway, was run with the express going to Van Cortlandt.
Then Christmas morning, of course, set up the American Flyers, hope for more of it under the tree,[there usually was]. Christmas as intended.
For good reason the car trip to the shopping
mall isn't the same. But a price of living in small town America; no choice..no people trains only freights.
Happy holidays and best of Christmas to all!
Help me out! I have a small gray token which reads "Bristol Traction Company.". It has two cutouts and has a picture of an old-looking bus in the middle. On the reverse, the same picture is there plus the words "Good for one fare".
It took a while but I finally was able to get a copy from Barnes & Noble. Before you say anything - I had a $25 gift certifcate that I wanted to use.
I almost missed it on the shelf because I was looking for a book that was bound like the first Volume. It is in a box that is about 1/2 wide x 8 1/2 x 11 1/4. If you don't look carefully for it you could walk right by it. Now whether $39.95 is worth it is up to you but at about $3.00 a map one can hardly complain.
This is an excellent selection of maps from what I gather is only a small part of John Lander's collection. It certainly helps better explain and define the history of transit in NYC.
I do want to make mention of a minor "blooper". The numbering on the outside of maps 11 & 12 are switched so that they do not match the narrative booklet.
Hopefully, John has other transit related maps that he will oneday share and have a Volume III.
On the MSG Metro Channel, although it seems doubtful that this group will find the questions challenging.
Barring unforseen circumstances LA ought to be jumping out of its rapid transit seats when #1 Brighton Beach Bob and #$ Sea Beach Fred hook up for the first time tomorrow in the City of Angels. Bob and I have become fast friends on Subtalk, usually trading barbs about the Mets and Yankees, Democrats vs Republicans, and Brighton Beach vs the Sea Beach. Through it all, we've become buddies and plan to ride the Red and Blue Lines tomorrow. As a matter of fact Bob is moving from Hawaii to Virginia within a week, and that puts him much closer to New York and may even give me a place to stay (maybe) when I come East. We've both agreed----NO POLITICS. As for the Yankees and Mets, Sea Beach vs Brighton Beach, figure anything goes---and probably will.
I have submitted the story about the complete idiot that was killed by a #1 train to the Darwin Awards. If he hasn't reproduced he has improved the gene pool by his total and utter stupidity. Didn't he realize that the signs that are posted stating that "Crossing the tracks is prohibited" I guess he didn't know how to read. He paid for his stupidity with his life and that is why I've submitted the story to the Darwin Awards. website. You can go to http://www.darwinawards.com/ for more information.
BMTJeff
I was wondering has anyone thought of doing the hard task of doing a station by station thing for nycsubway.org? I am thinking about doing it during the year and do each line one by one. Getting the right descriptions, pointing out unused sections of tracks etc. I think it would be cool to point that out cause it is extensive and it would be hard but it would be cool to show that.
Christopher Rivera
...from those "Learn English" ads? They must be very popular, since the company can afford to have ads every single subway car in NYC.
When was it that the J line was extended to Fort Hamilton on the R line & why?
MERRY CHRISTMAS to all on subtalk
Could somebody tell me how fast were the old & present subway cars:
R1-9
R10
R11
R12/14/15
R16/17
R21/22
R26/28/29
R33/36
R27/30
R32
R38
R40S/40M/42
R62/62A
R68/68A
R110A/110B
R142/142A
People said here that the reason the 7 line service was good was because it does not share tracks with any other lines. The L doesn't either. How come I never hear about good service on that line?
OK. This is all very minor and superficial, but...
There is a baisc similarity about the look of the timetables on both MTA commuter railroads. The station timetables are more or less exactly the same. The line/branch timetables have the same basic idea, but different in some layout decisions.
I wonder why these aren't exactly the same format. I know that the LIRR and Metro-North are really seperate agencies with the same "overseer", but lately the MTA has been trying to present a unified face.
Did the timetables look exactly alike when Metro North first openned for business in the eraly 1980's?
Just wondering.
:-) Andrew
It was a sunny and very cold day today. I had to spend it by myself. i took the N21 bus at 11:17am to Flushing. There were
about 5 other people on when I got on, but by Great Neck the bus was 70% full. Great Neck LIRR looked busy, while the
rest of Nassau was just plain deserted.
Got to Flushing at 12:15pm, a pretty fast trip, because there were less people and little traffic.
Flushing was busy, and for the first time in awhile I had a good time there.
That could be because it was Christmas, and mostly chinese people were
walking around, no troublemakers. Fruit markets were jammed, book stores had some customers, and so was HK Plaza as
well as the Flushing Center Mall. Lots of nice girls to look at. :-) Also WJ Bookstore opened up a branch in the mall.
It was bitter cold though, with a frigid wind. I did see some buses idling, probably since it was so cold. I've witnessed the CS
Orions with series 50 stalling in the cold weather, but it was way too cold to watch buses today. The Orions looked horrible, all
dirty and beaten up. However the RTS's on the Q17 seemed to look a lot better, I guess they are more "winterized".
I ate at Burger King, I usually don't but I knew they were open. They were busy, but I don't know why they are so popular.
They are so expensive and Wendy's has better food. Noticed along the way Burger King and McDonald's were open, but
Wendy's in Bayside was closed. Problem is I like Wendy's but they still think like a small fast food chain!
The 7 subway station definately wasn't busy at all. I didn't ride it, just took a walk through there. Way too cold to travel around
NYC.
Well I got a pushcart for $20 in one of the stores since I need one now that I'm on my own.
Waited for the 3:32pm bus back to Glen Cove. Unfortunately the driver left us standing out in the cold until 3:30pm, being it
was frigid and it was Christmas she could've picked up sooner.
While there were quite a few people on the bus, it emptied out completely after Great Neck. I was the only one on the bus (a
first for the N21) from Great Neck to Roslyn, we picked up 3 at Roslyn.
Had Cummins Orions both ways (273 and 179) but they were running good. Didn't see many new Orions out today at LIB,
perhaps the Series 50 can't handle the cold. (I've heard CNG buses have problems starting in cold weather, but the same could
be said for diesels).
Got back at 4:20pm, that was only just over 45 minutes from leaving Flushing.
All in all not a bad day, but I'm glad I can put this lonely Christmas behind me.
Now was anybody riding the subways today? If so, what was it like?
Any fans of the Metro rail system in Washington, DC? I've been through the system about 8 times in the last four years. Once you get past the confusion with their exitfare routine, the rest is great! If you go for the day, I highly recommend buying a $5 one-day pass. Usually, I'll enter the system from Union Station (served by Amtrak and MARC as well) and head to either Gallery Place/ Chinatown (the MCI Center area) or Rosslyn, which is in Arlington, VA (orange line). If anyone has been to Vienna on the orange line, please let me know how long it takes to get there from Rosslyn! :> - Thanx!
While on my way to visit relatives, I noticed that the 145th street station platform was very short, In fact only the first five cars doors open.I remember as a kid this used to be the last stop, before the TA built the 148th street station,is there a reason why the platforms at this station are shorter than other platforms?
Saw ACELA train set laid up in Sunnyside Yard this morning around 7:15, first time I've seen one in New York!
Hi there
I have noticed something recently about the R68's that belong to COney Island (the ones "still" running on the N line primarily and a few on the B - i.e. series numbers 2800 to 2915)...they all used to have a red stripe under the train number on the exterior to designate the transverse cab OR to indicate that it belonged to Coney Island and not Concourse...Well, they recently they began stripping away the red tape...take a look at the R68 N trains, you will see some tape residue...some still have the red tape....could this possible have something to do with a yard swap or perhaps something to do with Manhattan Bridge plan...any help would be appreciated. Happy Holidays.
Basically NS proposed to hand over the Reading to Philly Harrisburg line IF SEPTA re-built the Atglin and Susquhanna line from Parksburg to Safe Harbour on the Port Road Line. This would add 738 million to the price tag raising it to 2.2 billion. this sounds cool to be because it means more work for PARK and THORN towers as well as a possible re-activation of the 2nd and 3rd tracks from PARK to GLEN.
Metra just ordered 250 new stainless steel bi-level coaches from SuperSteel's WI plant.
I've seen from a few sources that many of the signs on the Queens IND are incorrect as being obsolete. I am looking for a complete list of these stations. To my knowledge, they are:
Van Wyck Blvd (E,F) - Roadway doesn't exist, as it was incorporated into the Van Wyck Expressway in the 1940's.
75th Avenue/Puritan: Puritan Avenue is the old name for 75th Avenue.
Woodhaven Blvd/Slattery Plaza: Slattery Plaza no longer exists, having been replaced by the Queens Mall.
Grand Avenue/Newtown: Newtown is not a separate neighborhood anymore; its part of Queens (though there is a Newtown High School).
65th Street/Rowan Street: Rowan Street was the old name for 65th Street.
23rd Street/Ely Avenue: These are the same streets; Ely Avenue is the old name for 23rd Street. According to a source, the Board of Transportation was afraid that people would not recognize a station called "23rd Street" in 1940 (when the station opened), so they referred to it by both its old and new names.
Does anyone know of any others?
I was riding the southbound "E" train one morning, and as the train was crawling out of Canal Street I noticed what looked like a tunnel stub going east bound. On the wall there was a arrow painted with the words "Worth St." on it. Is this where the Worth Street tunnel was going to be. To me it makes since but since I didn't see it mentioned any where in this web site, it made me think twice. If my memory serves me well, this tunnel was supposed to go to Brooklyn (South 4th Street?).
I have an off the wall question for those in the know out there. Are there any websites that will let you listen to New York subway radio traffic? Currently you can listen to variouse fire and police depts. from different cities including New York. I was just curious if there is anything like this for subway radio frequencies?
Does anyone know what exactly caused the 7 train to shut down this morning? I know there was an "ongoing police investigation" at 103rd Street; but I'm not sure what the nature of this investigation was. Last I heard the LIRR was offering free service between Woodside and Main Street, and the 7 was running from 61st Street to Times Square only.
-7toG
Does anyone know how to properly load this program from the JoeKorner?I understand that it won't run on Windows NT, but I have Windows 95 as well and I can't seem to load it....
That said, is it worth loading?
I just recieved that Arnold Joseph passed away yesterday (12/25) around noon.
For those who are not familiar, Arnold was man who attended ERA meetings and sold some books, calendars and photo's. He had an office at 1140 Broadway where he had loads of paper railroadiana, like maps, books, timetables etc for sale. If you needed something rare, you would check him to see if he had it. I often directed some of my subway calendar customers who quizzed me on rare items to write or call Arnold.
Details of the cause of death and funeral is not known at this time. Some one might come forward to report any news. Arnold was a nice guy who will be missed.
Regards,
Bill "Newkirk"
Newkirk Images
Track Jumper on 7
as promised- here is an update of work at Chauncey:
They have new stairways from the mezz to the plat,with the new design such as is Broadway/Myrtle. There are new doors to/from the mezz. Plywood still abounds, with rooms being built behind the plywood. The booth is still in a temporary location, due to be moved sdoon back to permanent location with construction beginning on the Manhattan side. The Station Agent on duty confirmed my theory of a stained glass in the cutouts such as can be found at broadway/Myrtle.
The mezz has a new concrete floor and new side walls.
In an new design, part of the platform is slightly higher than the rest (also seen at Franklin on the A/C)designed to be ADA compliant.
The station is still being renovated so a final revised description will be done after construction is completed--both Chauncey and rthe other stations.
Has a decision been made on whether to extend the Redbirds' lives, in view of the need for more cars? I love the Redbirds - I'll let as many R-62s as possible pass for the chance to ride a Redbird.
As far as I know, Mitch...Redbirds should start to be retired soon, now that more R142s and R142As are arriving. The question remains which will be retired first...R 26s/28s on the 2/5 as more R142s come in, or the R33 worlds fair cars on the #7 as the R142As go to the #6, moving R62A cars to corona yard at some point. -Nick
Eventually they will wind up at Naporano's Scrap yard in New Jersey.
All retired equipment goes there, unless someone out there knows about another place ( excluding any of the transit museums like Branford Trolley mueum, and others.)
Well some of us at Branford still hope for another Redbird Acquisition (namely R-33WF), but that remains to be seen....
Cheers,
Stef
When the R17's thru 36 [minus the BMT/IND versions] finishe odd the IRT as I knew and loved it I hated them; I did enjoy the R26 and up somewhat as a motorman but could still go to the B div. and did most of the time to work R1-9.
But now that we're watching another generation of equipmnt go out I can honestly say catching a redbird instead of an R62, etc was almostlike catching a Low-V or High-V in their last days. I"ll be sorry to see them all go... but I do mean ALMOSTwhen I refer to nostalgia. They could never be as much fun as the prewar stuff!
Yeah, none of the new stuff moans, groans, and grunts the way the old timers did.:-)
I agree with you, Ed. I enjoyed the R 1-9, as well as the R 10. The "newer" equipment at the time, R 16,through R 40-42 were all somewhat similar. The R 44-46 started the trend of "new-fangled" cars as I call them, i.e. 'ding-dong' closing doors, transverse cabs, etc. There is a drastic difference between the cars left on the road now, and the R 142's, etc. My point is that this generational change is a BIG change. The road will not be as much fun, I think.
Today like around 3:30 PM when I was walking around Marble Hill around 225th St I saw a batch of #1 train with yellow sticker from the Pelham Cars of the #6 line. What on earth were they doing there?
Has this ever happen before?
The car #s were 1661-1670.
Those cars used to be originally deliver on #1 line back in 1987. It was #1651 to #1800 i think?? than went over to #6 early 1988.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Most people probably don't remember, but the yellow stickered cars on the 6 actually appeared on the 1 first way back in 1985, and eventually were transferred over to the 6 as newer R-62As appeared on the TA property. If you ever see a 1700 series R-62A for instance, look carefully at the yellow stripe. You should see a red stripe under it, denoting that the car had been on Bway before it came to Pelham.
-Stef
I saw it too. I think it may have been transferred permanantly because:
Several strip maps were missing.
All the rollsigns were correct (incl. mid-train).
The car numbers are consecutive, like those sets sent over to the 3.
I saw it parked at the Brighton beach station tonight heading out to queens. I think the Q should have the R38 instead of the R40. Why was it there? only one at a time going there or was it amix up?
Are you sure? The R38 never runs on the Q. Perhaps it was an R32. They look a lot alike.
I was camcording on the Q between 11AM and 1PM. I did see one R32 Q train. Usually R38s are on A and C lines.
It should be an R32, instead of R38.
Chaohwa
I don't think the R38 would venture that far as to go to Coney Island-it lives in either Pitkin-Yard or in 207th Street. I would guess you saw an R32. The ridges on the side - did they go all the way up to the car roof or only half-way up? Half-way up is the R38, all the way up is R32. R32 on the "Q" is not an impossibility, as Coney Island Yard has its own stable of them, usually these run on the "N".
wayne
More than likely it was an R32 since I spotted 2 slant40s on the N today. It could be an R38 if Coney Island Main Shop did work on them.
207 can do most stuff that Coney Island can... I think
That's why you never see R38's or R44's at CI for ANY maintenance reason. However, certain jobs for the #7's fleet of R36's can only be done at CI.
Do you have car numbers?
Well, it's on!
Lou from Brooklyn will post the details sometime tomorrow morning, but here are the basics: Meet at World Trade Center PATH turnsiles area @ 11:00 am. I believe the main event will be riding the Newark PCC's. However, there is the possibility that HBLR will be included in this trip.
Stayed tuned for more details...
BMTman
Oh no! I will go back to Maryland on 12/28. I miss a great chance to meet you guys!
However, I did meet BMTman at the NYC Transit Model show last June.
Chaohwa
Is this just a Jersey trip? Or is there gonna be any NYC subway action? If not, would anyone be interested in expanding the trip a little more? NJT Rail? Complete PATH? NYC subway? I don't know about everyone but I'm game for anything.
Mike
"Mr. Mass Transit" As I've been called
as for extending the trip... i for one will be pushing to spend at least 1 hour in newark watching greyhound buses come and go...
or to try to ride the newark subway later in the day toward rush hour and darkness, so as to catch the rush hour high frequency of service as well as seeing the cars running in the darkness... it really takes on a cozy feeling at night or in the early morning...
Click Here
What, am I going to be posting a new one every day?
Yes, he jumped infront of a #7 train at 103rd St. The gentleman in question was found under the #2 end of the 3rd car. His New Years Eve plans have been cancelled.
Yes, he jumped infront of a #7 train at 103rd St. The gentleman in question was found under the #2 end of the 3rd car.
And the 4th car, and the 5th car, and the 6th car ...
And on the street...
-Hank
Anybody know who the sorry bastard was? Did he have a family? If so, they're the ones I feel sorry for. Kids without a father, a wife without a husband. Hopefully, he didn't leave anybody behind. I was also wondering where 103rd Street on the #7 line is. I don't recall ever seeing it listed.
Where 103rd Street crosses the 7 line.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
103rd St. on the #7 line is in Corona which is two stops west of Shea Stadium. As for the poor bastard that got himself killed didn't he read the signs that he isn't supposed to cross the subway tracks because they're dangerous. It is too bad that people do such stupid things and get themselves killed but, people should heeds the signs that say "Don't cross the tracks. They are dangerous.
BMTJeff
A link to the Daily News article was given in message # 180184:
"The 50-year-old man, identified as Andres Diaz,... a Dominican immigrant who owned J&M Grocery on 39th Ave., was married and had three children and a stepchild, neighbors said."
Chuchubub: That compounds his stupidity even more. A man with a business, a wife, three kids, and he does a thing like that. He was either having family difficulties, was on drugs or was physically ill to do something like that. Was he thinking of his family when he did that? I kind of doubt it.
What ever happened to the theory that it was an accident and he never intended to cross the tracks? Why is everybody ignoring that?
Pork:
It probably was an accident in all likelihood but a very stupid accident at that. People should use their heads. Never cross the tracks for any reason whatsoever unless you're told to do so in an emergency.
BMTJeff
Well, if I was being chased by a man wielding a knife (I'm not saying that that is what happened) and the only way out is to run across the tracks, I'd take the chance.
Fred, maybe it was just that he was a Lazio supporter.
The ones who should be contemplating suicide are the morons who voted for hilarious Hillary. I'm told she'e thinking of selling her New York home and moving to Washington. That speaks volumes for her perfidy if any of that is true. She has played New York like a fiddle and is using it only as a springboard to run for the Prsidency. Anyone who thinks differently is a knave and a fool. Of course, many New Yorkers bought into the fable that she was a Yankee fan and had Jewish blood in her veins. I think P.T. Barnum was thinking of New York voters when he said there's a sucker born every minute. She's yours. You're welcome to her. But get this, she will never see the Presidency. The rest of the country is not as dumb and naive as New Yorkers were this November.
I'm told she'e thinking of selling her New York home and moving to Washington.
No, she wants to buy an apartment in Washington since she will be spending a lot of time there. That's what Senators do. She can't move out of New York since then she can't be a Senator.
She has played New York like a fiddle and is using it only as a springboard to run for the Prsidency.
I know. Every other country has had a female leader: The UK, Canada, Israel, India, Sri Lanka, The Phillipines, even Pakistan! Are we worse than Pakistan?
But get this, she will never see the Presidency. The rest of the country is not as dumb and naive as New Yorkers were this November.
How do you explain the President-elect then? Anyway, if she's nominated in 2004, it's an almost certainty. In 2008, it's not as simple (since she would have to run against the incumbent Democratic president, hopefully not Al Gore) and by 2012 she'll be old and washed up.
She can't move out of New York since then she can't be a Senator.
Not true. She only has to live in New York to be elected. Once elected, she can move anywhere she wants. To be reelected, of course, she would have to reestablish residency by the prescribed time.
But this is a somewhat moot point since it appears that earlier reports of her selling the NY house are inaccurate. She is looking for a house in DC, however, not an apartment, at least partially due to Secret Service issues.
And when did Canada get a female leader (other than the Queen as titular head of state)? I don't recall one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And when did Canada get a female leader (other than the Queen as titular head of state)? I don't recall one.
Kim Campbell was the Prime Minister who preceded the current Jean Cretien.
OK, thanks... I remember the name but assumed it was a male, a la the British/Russian spy Kim Philby.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your last paragraph Pork? You're in dreamland. Bush will do a good job and get re-elected. As for a female President, no problem. But not Hillary. I stand by what I said. Hillary will never win over the majority of the US because those voters aren;t as dumb as New Yorkers were this year---electing a carpetbagger. That would never hapapen in California because it never has. New Yorkers showed a real lack of pride putting an outsider in. She's using New Yorkers as a stepping stone for bigger things, and if you don't realize that you need a brain transplant and pronto.
Hillary will never win over the majority of the US because those voters aren;t as dumb as New Yorkers were this year---electing a carpetbagger.
How is Hillary a carpetbagger to the country? Was she born abroad?
New Yorkers showed a real lack of pride putting an outsider in.
I wasn't happy with this year's election and ended up voting along party lines (if Giuliani was still running, I would have crossed them for him) to try to take back the Senate (it didn't happen, but 50-50 is a fun little arrangement).
Bush will do a good job and get re-elected.
I had to respond in the wrong order because I had to stop laughing. Bush faces a divided nation, divided congress and even division in his own party. Uniter or not, nothing will get done in the next 2 years, and barring a scandal of some sort, the Democrats are taking back both houses in 2002. That should work even worse against Bush. Of course, people will blame the inability to get anything done on him and he'll get the boot.
And if Gore was elected this year, he probably would have suffered the same fate, and the Congress might not have gone back to the Dems in 2002.
I would offer in fairness that Bush has a magnificent opportunity to show what kind of a deal-maker he is. I don't know if he's up to it.
That is true, Bush does have in front of him a great oppurtunity to be "a uniter, not a divider," however, Bush is clearly not the man to do this. If Dick Cheney picks good advisors for him, and the shadow president(s) do(es) a good job, then he can take credit for it and will get re-elected.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
The have been other carpetbaggers that have served on a U.S. senate seat for New York State. It should be interesting what Hillary Clinton will do for New York. She may not turn to be as bad as you think she will but since I know that you're a die hard republican you don't care for her very much so I won't argue with you about your views on Hillary Clinton. As for Pork he can be narrow minded at times but give him a chance since he's only 18 years old and he's going to learn plenty over the next 10 years or so.
BMTJeff
As for Pork he can be narrow minded at times but give him a chance since he's only 18 years old and he's going to learn plenty over the next 10 years or so.
Again you bring my age into this. When the hell did I ever mention your age in relation to anything? I don't appreciate your subtle condescention in referring to my "inexperience."
Hate to say it, but it shows... no one really needs to bring it up. What I like about you, though - despite our significant disagreement on many issues - is that you are obviously thinking, even if you are coming to what I believe are the wrong conclusions. (Given more experience in life, your conclusions will change. When I was your age I simply couldn't believe that my parents and grandparents were so stupid. Now that I have many more years of experience and am a parent and grandparent, I marvel at how smart they were.) So many people your age don't even bother to think, they simply "go with the flow".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Pork:
You have to realize that many of us who post messages on this website are older than you and have more experience. I'm not trying to put you down but, you have placed a number a posts which have upset a few people who visit the website regularly. I recall that you made a few people a little upset when you said that Coney Island should be a thing of the past. You don't realize that Coney Island means a lot to many older people who visit this website on a regular basis and when you said that "Coney Island should be a thing of the past" you hurt a lot of people's feelings so please be careful of what you say so that you don't get people angry with you. I also want to mention the you hurt my feelings also when you said that "Coney Island should be a thing of the past" because when I found out what a great place Coney Island was at one time I realized what it meant to a great many old time New Yorker's. Although I'm 37 years old and never saw Coney island in its hey day I realize what it meant to many older people and like many of them I would like to see Coney Island revitalized so that future generations can enjoy it like their grandparents or great-grandparents did many years ago. Treat this message as a lesson and remember to be careful of what you say about certain things otherwise you'll hurt people's feeling and you may find yourself unwelcome on this website.
BMTJeff
I will not treat this message as a lesson.
First, show me where I said that Coney Island was a thing of the past? In fact, I said entirely that today's Coney Island is not bad and I do not believe that we should go back to the past because the past is not our best time. Everybody else was lamenting the passing of the Coney Island of the past, I was the only person who appreciated the Coney Island of the present.
Secondly, I shouldn't be singled out for hurting someone's feelings just because I'm younger than the person I'm hurting. Right now, I don't regret having hurted your feelings. I don't think that people's feelings should be hurt for the smallest things. I don't want to live in a politically correct world where everybody has to keep their mouth shut just because somebody else might get "hurt." I don't like your ideas about Coney Island because I am against restoring the past, yet my feelings aren't hurt just because your opinions on development on different from mine. If you don't want to be insulted by someone else's opinions, don't read. If people didn't speak their mind because it could offend someone else, nobody would speak, and civilization would die.
Pork:
I understand that you might be against restoring the past but, I think that a lot of people would like to see Coney Island revitalized so that others can enjoy it once again. True it might be impossible to restore it to the way it was 50 years ago but, I see no reason why they can't improve it so that it would be a better place than it is at the present time. BTW you did mention in an earlier posting that Coney Island should be a thing of the past or you had mentioned somthing in a way that people should forget about revitalizing Coney Island because it should be a thing of the past. The way that you said it did hurt some peoples' feelings. Believe it or not you might benefit from an improved Coney Island if they ever try to revitalize it. Wouldn't you want to go Coney Island and not see empty lots strewn with garbage, buildings covered with graffiti, streets with trash along the curb and public restrooms that are clean and perhaps some new rides which might include a new roller coaster or two and one or more authentic reproductions of wooden Coney Island style carousels. These are the things that can make Coney Island great once again even if it cannot be made like it was 50 years ago. At least this way it wouls be a fun place to go to at just the cost of a subway ride.
BMTJeff
I think that a lot of people would like to see Coney Island revitalized so that others can enjoy it once again.
This is where we agree. I believe that Coney Island should be vitalized, but that the past should only be used as a model, as everything builds on the past. The past should not be restored completely. And Coney Island will never be as popular as it was because of flying and air conditioning. So that is another consideration.
Believe it or not you might benefit from an improved Coney Island if they ever try to revitalize it. Wouldn't you want to go Coney Island and not see empty lots strewn with garbage, buildings covered with graffiti, streets with trash along the curb and public restrooms that are clean
Yes, I would, I'm not against revitalization.
and perhaps some new rides which might include a new roller coaster or two and one or more authentic reproductions of wooden Coney Island style carousels.
That's exactly the kind of not restoring the past I was talking about. New stuff, with some old stuff thrown in.
These are the things that can make Coney Island great once again even if it cannot be made like it was 50 years ago. At least this way it wouls be a fun place to go to at just the cost of a subway ride.
You would have to build parking garages for suburbanites.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
It seems as though he didn't have his head together at the moment of his stupid act.
BMTJeff
The London Underground instaled plexiglas on all platforms of the newly opened extension on the Jubilee Line. The system works similar to what Hartsfield Airport's tram does. The track is inaccessible, behind closed doors until the train arrives, lining up side door to outer door. The doors open to admit passengers; when the train leaves, the outer doors close, eliminating access to the tracks.
Needless to say, this would be incredibly expensive to do here; London Underground has not retrofitted this to other lines.
Hartsfield does this because the trains are ZPTO. Anything that falls on the track wouldn't be seen by the train, so they can't do BIE's. All ZPTO lines do this. I have a theory that the new Jubulee line is planned on being comverted to ZPTO some day, so that is why they put platform doors there.
That's possible, but the rest of the Jubilee Line would have to be reconstructed for this.
You're right, but they would have to start somewhere. Might as well be the new stations while they were being constructed.
They tried it in Leningrad subway, later it was dropped as too expensive. Remind you that we are talking about the USSR, the country where money was no objection, really had no value.
Arti
Platform doors are the only sure way to prevent subway suicides and people wandering onto tracks.
Singapore and Hong Kong have converted all their stations to include platform doors. This also keeps the heat of the trains in the tunnel, not the platform, which means cooler stations in the summer.
[Platform doors are the only sure way to prevent subway suicides and people wandering onto tracks. ]
Platform doors will cost exessive amount of money to implement. With them ATO will be the only way to not slow down the system to crawl. They tried it in Russia with manual TO and decided againt it as it proved to be inefficient.
More people get killed on streets than on RR ROW, what do you propose install doors to streets???
[This also keeps the heat of the trains in the tunnel, not the platform, which means cooler stations in the summer. ]
My understanding (and experience) is that the design of the subways makes trains to ventilate the stations and keep them cooler.
Arti
The trains air-conditioning negates that effect. That heat's gotta go somewhere (energy neither created nor destroyed). Ever sit next to the wrong side of an air conditioner?
Before A/C, I'd imagine the whole air-flow thing actually worked. It still does on PATH, but that's probably because there are no street grates, and the trains are few and far between.
My understanding (and experience) is that the design of the subways makes trains to ventilate the stations and keep them cooler.
If you mean than between tracks, a full wall with escapes is built instead of just steel supports to create a piston effect, you're only partially right. All that "piston" effect is doing is blowing the hot air emitted by braking and A/C compressors around, perhaps making you feel somewhat more comfortable, but I wouldn't exactly call it cooling ...
--Mark
What about sucking fresh air in from outside.
Arti
Never happen here, too many door motors to maintain.
Imagine a broken train door then a broken station door both lining up with working counter parts.
Seattle Seatac airpori has a tram between airports which has a like feature,as does dallas texas airport.
The DFW "trAAin", as it's called, is really cool! (The "AA" is American Airlines, who has a hub at DFW). It's fully automated using, I think, linear induction as there are no running rails. One line (there are 5 in all, I think) ventures in a "circle" connecting all three terminals. About 20 minutes round trip (I had some time to kill before my flight departed). Not all trains stop at all stations giving the effect of express running. I would have turned on the video camera and videoed a "cab" ride on it, but security was pretty tight, and I KNOW there was a plain clothes officer who got on the train a few minutes after me wondering why I was just riding it and not getting off. (The radio was a dead giveaway :)
--Mark
I rode on it while passing through DFW a few years back. Kind of slow, although the train I was on did run outside for a spell, unlike our subway at DIA which is all underground.
And O'Hare, and Pittsburgh, and Gatwick, and ...
(Gatwick took me by surprise. I thought I was waiting for an elevator. This was about 10-15 years ago; things may have changed since.)
Being alone, poor, or destitute on the holidays can drive some people to kill themselves. We really have to try to look out for the lonely more in this world. The rash of subway suicides in the past few days shows the city should be doing more to prevent them.
Idea to prevent subway suicides (picture this ad):
Tired, poor, lonely, feeling life is no longer worth living? Why don't you take a long walk of a short pier? Or jump from a tall building or bridge? Play in traffic. Use the kitchen knives. Take a stroll through Harlem, the South Bronx, or South Jamaica at 2 in the morning. But please, don't think of the subway in your hour of need.
South Jamaica is really bad? What's the main street through this happening locale, I want to check it out (while this section of the planet is facing the central star of course).
Story in Wednesday's Daily News.
chuchubob:
What was the store owner doing on the subway tracks anyway? I guess that he didn't read the signs that it is dangerous to walk onto and/or cross the subway tracks. That person was a complete and total idiot. I guess that we don't have to worry about him anymore.
BMTJeff
BMTJeff:
I didn't know him personally. You seem to have known him quite well, though. I'll let you continue to speak on his behalf.
Bob
chuchubob:
I didn't know him personally but, I meant that the world doesn't have to worry about him anymore since he killed himself out of his own stupidity.
BMTJeff
We can't go inside the head of a dead person or make conclusions on his mindset of jumping. Did I say jumping? Maybe he got dizzy and fell. I don't know, do you? If he did jump, what was his mindset? We can only speculate, but this time of year depressed people get more depressed. Statistics prove that. They see happy people around them and they get more depressed. Maybe because of a broken marriage, miscellaneous family problems, or financial problems. Maybe they feel society pays no attention to them and they feel alone. So that person may decide to end it all by jumping in front of a train, now he'll really get noticed because he has inconvenienced thousands of people. I post here from the standpoint of a motorman who has to go through the grief that he has destroyed a life and the hassle NYPD and the TA put him through after the suicide. But we really have to have a bit of compassion for the deceased.
Now his wife and children must cope with it. Suicide is the ultimate selfish act.
I was on MBTA #815 today, the 4:35 Providence local from South Station (I was going to Mansfield, MA -- usually a 40 minute ride). We stopped unexpectedly at Forest Hills at 4:53 (NO Attleboro/Stoughton trains stop here), and it was announced that we were awaiting paramedics for an ill passenger. We finally got underway at 5:12, exactly when the ACELA Express #2175 was scheduled to leave South Station. I did some quick calculations, and figured it would pass us on Track 2 (wrong railing) between Sharon and Mansfield. I was on the left side of the train, upper level of a bilevel.
We made Sharon at 5:26, when AE was scheduled to be at Route 128. Then as we approached Mansfield, we slowed to a crawl, and eventually stopped at the interlocking signal just north of where the Foxboro lead branches off. At 5:32, the AE went screaming by on Track 2. We held for another two minutes or so, and then another Amtrak train went by NORTHBOUND on Track 2; I assume this was #84 running late. The only piece of the puzzle I don't have is: Did the AE cross over to Track 1 just south of Mansfield, to allow #84 to continue northbound on Track 2, or was #84 holding short of Mansfield on Track 1 waiting for #2175 to go by on Track 2 so that it could cross over?
The dispatcher was probably having a migrane by this time. When all nine AEs are running from Boston to New York, it's going to be a nightmare squeezing things in between MBTA commuter trains on a good day -- no less when things go wrong!
If I'm not mistaken, on the first day of Acela service from Washington, something like 17 NJT trains were delayed on the corridor. I have a feeling that OTP for the various commuter railroads, except from New Rochelle to New Haven, will suffer because of the priority movements that the Acela must have.
Don't expect smooth sailing from Shell to New Haven all the time.
I was southbound (RR west) on a late New Haven Express, we got the expree track since the local had left and was on the localt track (Non rush hour expresses run on the local track normally).
The east bound express track was out of service and work crews were on it near CosCob. We held up the Acella Express behind us. They switched us local (crawling with the New Haven Local train just ahead of us) and the AE came past us at a crawl as well.
We then ended up back on the express track for another crawl (15 min) I guess until the AE got enough ahead of us or reach Shell interlocking.
Ha! Prority dispatch between Shell and New haven?!?
Sorry, but MN knows better than to hold up X thousand of commuters so a few dozen Amtrak riders can get to there withiout being the normal 15 - 30 late that Amtrak is.
Watch NJT's commuters start complaining in a few months as more AE's come on line though. Ditto for MBTA. Amtrak knows that quite a few people are watching, so they're gonna be a bit anxious to get there on time...
What do you mean *will suffer*. Already the OTP of the commuter roads suffers from Amtrak. I have been onboard many NJT or SEPTA trains held up by Amtrak or crawling due to Amtrak. AT one time, SEPTA used to publish the OTP figures and the biggest hit for the R7 Trenton (Shares the NEC) is --you guessed it ! Amtrak.
Amtrak owns the NEC and the commuter RRS are just tenants.
in between MBTA commuter trains on a good day -- no less when things go wrong!
Ugh, I can only imagine! I remember arriving into south station once on Amtrak during the PM Rush Hour...I was kicking myself for not gettingg off at Back Bay Station...becuase instead of 5 minutes, it took 45 minutes before we entered a track in south station. Since waiting for a track is already a problem...I wonder if there is anyway to expand south station, or build a third terminal. -Nick
Can you call that piece of track the NEC? Technically its the Amtrak Shore Line. I believe the NEC is only named the NEC from NY to DC. From NY to BOS its the New york Connecting Railroad, then the new Haven Line, then the Shore Line.
The Amtrak folks here in Boston (who operate the MBTA Commuter Rail) call it the Northeast Corridor.
The entire area from Boston to DC is the Northeast Corridor. The rail line that runs mostly along the coast of said corridor is the Northeast Corridor Line.
-Hank
I will now direct your attention to this .gif map of the Boston area at http://gateway.eeg.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Conrail/Breakup/cr_bos.gif
As you can see the "NEC" is labeled as the Amtrak Shore Line. if you have time to download this .gif http://gateway.eeg.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Conrail/Breakup/cr_nyc.gif
You will see that above Penn Station it is the Amtrak Hellgate Line and the MNRR New Haven Line. South of Penn Station it is the Amtrak N.E.C. Even in the Baltimore map it is the Amtrak N.E.C.
I'll repeat myself:
The entire area from Boston to DC is the Northeast Corridor. The rail line that runs mostly along the coast of said corridor is the Northeast Corridor Line.
It may go by many names in between, and different maps will call it different things. I have a recent Hagstroms that refers to the Penn Central. Amtrak refers to the ENTIRE LINE from DC to Boston as the NEC Line, and it is operated by their NE Corridor business unit.
-Hank
No matter what the public calls the line it has an official railroad name that appears on maps and timetables. It is unproseffional for railfans to use the names given by the generalizing, uneducated public. The NH to BOS section of the Northeast corridor route is called the Amtrak Shore Line. This is further evidenced by the line being controled by the Shore Line dispatch, not CTEC. The Shore Line is very different than the N.E.C. proper operations wise and probably has more in common with the Springfield Line or Michigan Line.
BTW that map is not some road atlas or USGS map, its an offical Conrail map with offical route and line names.
And if, as has been said repeatedly, railroad officials refer to it as the Corridor? Then what?
-Hank
I don't go through this station often, but I always wondered how at the 47th-50thSt/Rock.Center station, the downtown "F" is on the express track and the downtown "B","D","Q" are on the local track, and at the next station (42nd St), they're switched back to the appropriate tracks. I'm sure it was designed this way to accomodate the "F" turning south from the Fifth Ave/53rd St station, not needing to cross under or over the "B","D","Q" line when reaching the 47th-50thSt. station, BUT HOW DO THE LOCAL AND EXPRESS TRAINS SWITCH TRACKS between 47th-50thSt. and 42nd St.??? (Now I'm revealing my lack of years of experience researching the peculiarities of the MTA subway system design, but hey, don't ask the question, never get an answer, right?) Thanks...
The F crosses under the B/D/Q tracks and they switch places. Check the track map Detail of 34-42 Sts.
WOW! What a cool map- I've never surfed through the MAP DETAILS section of this website before- you've just motivated me to spend at least 10 more hours on this website this week! Thanks, dude!
Ahh yes, yet another person who hasn't ventured past Subtalk.
www.nycsubway.org
Did I just get my wrist slapped? I'm sorry, David- I've checked out several areas of the website, but I've only been on here (after a fellow student recommended it) for about 3 weeks, so rest assured, I'll be digging in deeper. And I LIKE SUBTALK- some of the guys on here know so much about the system, and I have a lot to learn.
Do dig! Also don't forget the Subtalk archives.
Arti
The most I've dug out of them are the first 2 thousand messages. After that, all I know is since I've been here, sometime around message 100,000 (I remember the thread about it).
It's not you really, but what I was hinting was to pay attention what's going on and not to come up with the same (..deleted..) ideas again and again, and that's to selfproclaimed PhD.
Arti
Another suggestion-- include your e-mail address so we can help you become an experienced user. All of us except for maybe our webmaster were newbies at one time
No Message
I think the F tunnel crosses under the B,D,Q line south of 47-50, so it ends up on the usual local side of the platform at 42nd.
It's magic, I tell you, it's magic.
(Is that a line from a movie? It sounds like it should be, although I don't think I've ever heard it.)
Did the IND today:
C: R38#4102
Quick ride along the Fulton St/8Av local. A R38 "A" caught up with us at Utica and left. Encounter the WD at Canal. Learned an early lesson before my conductor training. The T/O overshoots the 8 car marker at Spring and sounded two buzzes to let the conductor know that it was ok to open the door. Got off at 42St.
E: R32#3365
Very clean railfan window. Straight run from 50St to 23/Ely Ave. Observed the 63St connector. Those lights are bright. Excellent QB run. Got off at Continental.
Went to pay phone bill on Austin St. Nice shopping area. I noticed that Continental Ave street sign is right above the 71Av sign at Qns Blvd. Headed back towards subway.
E: R32#3574
Car have the black floor. The timers werent that bad between 71 and Roosevelt. Once again the QB express run was good. Got off at Qns Plaza.
G: R46#6256
A weird thing happen. Between Greenpoint and Nassau, the train was slowing for track workers. As the T/O gave two blasts, the door chime was heard. I sure hope the door was not open en route to the next station. The Bway station needs some help. Leaks everywhere, a stream on the trackbed, and the ceiling was peeling. Not good at all. Where does the middle track after Bedford Nostrand leads to? It looks like it descends under the main two tracks. After Fulton St, right along the Fulton IND until Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
C: R38#3953
Nothing much except for a bum at the railfan window and another R38 A passed us at Kingston-Throop.
This day was to start out by catching the R110B. Due to the L running a midday shuttle, it seems that I just missed it. The only way to catch it is if I pick the B division......
Train#1969Mike
Here's the track map of Brooklyn... see the diagram of Bedford-Nostrand for the answer to that one.
Big Brooklyn 1 map
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This midday shuttle L, did it by any chance leave you off at Eastern Parkway (J/Z) instead of Broadway Junction(L)? If so you went over the rarely-used K connection tracks (Which will be used every weekend in January).
No, it terminated at Atlantic. Single track between Canarsie and Atlantic on the Manhattan bound track. I have been on the flyover connection to Eastern Pkwy. The weird thing about terminating at Atlantic is that there is no starting bell so once the T/O and C/R are in position, the platform personnel would send the train out to 8Av.
Train#1970Mike
It actually terminated at Atlantic?
I once caught a Canarsie-bound L that, according to the signs, was running to Atlantic, but we were all kicked off at Broadway Junction. (I know, that's the opposite direction.) A shame; I wouldn't have minded an excuse to explore that station for a few minutes. Then again, BJ is pretty interesting too.
The middle track at Bedford-Nostrand was a provision for an extension along Lafayette Ave. This extension would have turned slightly at Stanhope St. and linked up with the Myrtle Ave.-Central Ave. line.
Is there any hope of that line ever becoming a reality? What about the Winfield - Seabury route in Queens? Just wishful thinking.
I plan to do a field trip on L and M lines tomorrow. Since one half of the Atlantic Avenue station is going to be torn down, this will be my farewell trip to see this gigantic structure. As usual, I will bring my camcorder to record it.
As for M line, hopefully I can meet zman there.
Chaohwa
I was riding a red-striped R38 C train today. The car number is 4107. I observed that the sound of this R38 train is different than other R38s.
I read somebody post that this red-striped R38 train is unique. I forget the reason now. Could somebody tell me the reason?
Thanks for your help.
Chaohwa
I think it's the ones that have AC motors. I'm not sure.
Yes it is. I noticed it runs at around the same time every day.
Could you post the times?
Thanks.
Does anybody have a photo or picture of that train because..eh...a red - striped C train? I've seen a Redbird as a C train but never a red - striped
It isn't red striped, all it is is red rectangular tape under the number boards.
Is that the one that sounds like a jet plane taking off inside? Car #4066 was one of these, I think - the noise was excrutiating in the Cranberry Tube.
wayne
No, 4066 is not part of that train. Yes, I've heard the noise that 4066 makes, sounds like something of a racecar! We have a few Jamaica R32's which sound similar.
I only remember 4106/4107/4028/4029. What are the other four R38AC cars?
Chaohwa
4068/69 are 2 of them
I got the answer from the August 2000 issue of the Bulletin. The cars are 4106-7, 4028-9, 4068-9, and 4036-7.
I just reviewed my taping on 4107 Tuesday. It was indeed quieter than its DC sisters.
Chaohwa
Several R38's were used as testbeds for the AC propulsion that will be used in the new cars. I've only heard of these trains and have never ridden them.
I have some pictures that I want to scan & post.
Anybody have any tips on this subject?
be sure to save in JPEG format. Also use 640 x 480 or 800 x 600. If you are scanning for the web our webmaster can give you the best advice.
Once scanned, use your favorite photo editing program such as Paint Shop pro or one of the many others to enhance your photos before saving.
Well, depending on your scanner, if you start with slides or negatives and a film scanner you'll get better results than by putting a print thru a flatbed. If you have a lot of slides to scan, investing in a dedicated film scanner is the way to go. But, assuming you only have a flatbed, scan it at as high quality as you can manage especially if you are going to touch it up.
If you ARE going to touch it up-- save the output from the scanner as BMP or TIFF and ONLY EDIT the BMP or TIFF. When you are all done, THEN convert it to JPG. Every time you open, edit, and save a JPG it recompresses it and after a couple of times you will clearly see the effects of repeated compression. BMP / TIFF are uncompressed and won't degrade as you are working on them.
Then, save the final thing as a JPG, around 800x600, and somewhere between 75-95% JPG quality. That should net you a file of anywhere between 75k-150k.
-Dave
Thanks for the advice. Using my dad's scanner, I was able to scan some pictures found on my Transit Pictures Zero, 8, and 16 pages. Look for TP17 to come out next week.
You didn't really specify if you have any scanning resources of your own or not. If the latter, go to Kinko's, where you can scan your photos and save them to disk.
Just a few minutes ago, around 10:00 PM Chicago time, I was on a Red Line train heading northbound. Naturally, we wre using the inner (local) northbound track. Around Lawrence an 8-car train passed us on the outer express track. Obviously some sort of non-revenue equipment move, since the Purple Line express stopped running hours ago. The destination signs of the Mystery Train were marked "Not in Service", and the red "tail" lights and red marker lights were lit at the front of the train in addition to the normal headlights and lunar white marker lights, a lighting scheme that usually seems to indicate a disabled train (am I correct on that?).
The weirdest part: The consist had two pairs of 2200-series cars, one of which was 2293-2294. The rest were 2600's which did not appear to have been rebuilt. The consist was something like this (I didn't catch the other car numbers):
2600-2600-2293-2294-2600-2600-2200-2200
Needless to say, 2200's on any line other than the Blue Line are about as common as redbirds on the Culver Local. Indeed, a few of the cars had Blue Line route maps above the doors.
I can only assume the train was being taken up to the Skokie Shops complex. If it were strictly a train of 2600's, I'd assume they were being taken off the property to be rebuilt. However, I have no clue why the 2200's would be part of the train.
Anybody who knows more about CTA operations than I do, please feel free to respond.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Guess all I can say is they could have been a shop move as you expect. They mix 2200's with 2600's in service so why not in a shop drag?
Makes sense. Guess I was just so excited by the sight of 2200's on the Purple Line tracks that I just had to share with everybody. lol
In another slightly-weird sighting, during this morning's commute I saw a northbound Purple Line express train around Argyle that consisted entirely of 3200's! I wonder what the deal was with that.
And for yet another dose of CTA weirdness, I noticed that the small station placards at Addision indicated it was a "B" stop, a vesitge of the old skip-stop days. The weird part? The placards all have blue backgrounds. Am I wrong, or were the blue signs only for AB stops? And if that's not enough, I could swear the Addison stop was completely rebuilt after the CTA discontinued skip-stop service.
Is there a full moon or something, or am I just getting low on my meds?
-- David
Chicago, IL
I also saw a purple line train entirely of 3200 series cars on the express a couple weeks ago.
I rode it from Adams/Wabash to Quincy/Wells. The car I rode in had Brown Line maps above the doors.
I assumed that it was transfered a few days prior during the snow-storm and didn't make the move back yet.
With as many storms as we've had, they may just have decided to keep some of the equipment mixed until the weather gets better, who knows?!?!
About the Skip-Stop signs. The Green Line at Oak Park, Ridgeland, Austin, and Central(The Stations not rebuilt during the renovation) has some of the AB designations below the station names on the placards covered up, while other signs in the same station, like Oak Park, had some of the signs with the AB still there. A way to really confuse commuters!! Just like the AB Rapid Transit maps still up at some stations like UIC-Halsted.
Aparently the CTA realizes how confusing all the different colored sings are and has money in the 2001-2005 budget to review and re-design the signs for all L station. I don't know why they can't just go with the new signs, like at Library/State & Van Buren? They wouldn't be the CTA if they did that though.
I'm just excited about the Douglas & Ravenswood projects starting sometime in the early next year, which starts in a few days.
BJ
Two pairs of 3200s are actually assigned to the Purple Line (although one of the cars, originally a 2600, is now on its "second marriage").
3451-3452 were recently reassigned to the Purple Line from the Skokie Swift.
3457-3458 are an "odd couple". 3457 was the last car built as part of the 3200 series. 3458 was formerly numbered 3032. Its original mate had been destroyed. (I don't know what happened.)
-Dan
Is there a full moon or something, or am I just getting low on my meds?
New moon, to be precise.
There's a CTA train a few miles from here (i.e., Champaign) in Monticello. I first noticed it while driving by on I-72.
The Ronkonkoma Line of the LIRR looks like there will be two tracks for the entire right of way at some point in the future. The area is being developed, and the current single track running with numerous passing sidings will have to give way to double tracking for the entire route. Is there a plan to fulfill this vision that I have, or am I seeing some sort of illusion? How about grade crossing eliminations?
The Ronkonkoma Line of the LIRR looks like there will be two tracks for the entire right of way at some point in the future. The area is being developed, and the current single track running with numerous passing sidings will have to give way to double tracking for the entire route. Is there a plan to fulfill this vision that I have, or am I seeing some sort of illusion? How about grade crossing eliminations?
While indeed there is room for double-tracking, not to mention all the passing sidings, as far as I know the LIRR has no plans for actually doing anything. If somehow they decided to make some significant capital improvements, we'd see extension of electrification to Port Jefferson and Patchogue before any double-tracking to Ronkonkoma. Besides, running more trains from Ronkonkoma would be very difficult even with double-tracking, as the additional riders would have no place to park. Ronkonkoma station's massive parking facilities fill completely by seven in the morning.
Build more parking.
Build more parking.
That may not be easy. Ronkonkoma already has a vast amount of parking. North of the station, there is a six- or seven-level garage and a variety of surface lots, while to the south there is an enormous surface parking lot. Most of the area to the north that isn't already used for parking is occupied by a number of private homes and businesses. The surface lots in the area are mostly fairly narrow and probably aren't suited for garage construction. Building a garage structure over the south-side lot would result in the loss of hundreds of spaces during construction, and there might be limits on the height of any structure given the proximity to MacArthur airport.
Considering that they can either park there or on the LIE (a/k/a The World's Longest Parking Lot), the responsible people should try hard to find a solution. (I know that tring hard makes bureaucrats break out in hives, but we can always chip in for the cost of antihistamines.)
If either happens it will probably be at the same time. My guess is that they would build the second track such that it rises at crossings. Though, this means that crossings where there are already two tracks will remain the way they are.
Of course, this is speculation. The day they actually decide to spend some money on this is the day an influential person rides a Ronkonkoma line train (even at around 2PM they're crowded!).
From what I understand, the combination of the busy Ronkonkoma station (with riders from all over central Suffolk avoiding the diesels) and the single track, causing limited capacity is a real problem.
Ronkonkoma trains are packed for a reason, they either need more trains on that line, or the tracks should be electrified up to Patchougue and Port Jefferson.
Either way something's gotta give cause that one track really limits how tight headways are on the Ronkonkoma (and from what I hear off peak they don't run frequently).
Hourly off peak. They don't even increase it in pre-rush hour (3-4).
Electrification is now unnecessary for the Port Jeff and Patchogue lines, all they need to do is run more DM trips. 4 total ain't cutting it any more. Metro-North has the right idea, the Poughkeepsie line has hourly service off peak and nearly all the trains go straight to GCT. They've recently eliminated Yonkers, Tarrytown, Ossining, and Marble Hill from several off-peak trips on the line as well. Peak service is wonderful, on many trains you can get a seat even if boarding at 125! They've recently also increased the direct trips on the Wassaic line to 4. The Danbury Branch also has 2 direct trips per day.
LIRR has enough to run 9 DM sets with a comfortable safety net. I'd say 2 Oyster Bay, 4 Port Jeff, 3 Montauk line (Patchogue or Speonk). And definitely not just during Rush hour. With 2 on the Oyster Bay half the weekend trips could go direct to Penn, and about 1/3 weekday trips (off-peak).
This summer there probably will be an increase in Montauk line DM usage, we can only hope...
No increase in DM service until they stop the FIRES!! They are testing a shield on the shoe bar to stop the arching. How can 100 year old shoe bar be doing this?? LIRR just through more money at the problem, it will go away.
With the money the LIRR pissed away on the DMs, not to mention the fires, etc, I wouldn't place my bets on dual mode technology. IMHO, it's only delaing the inevitable.
They couldn't just get genesis, could they. What's good enough for Amtrak, their better sister, God, and Captain Kirk isn't good enough for them.
From what I understand, the combination of the busy Ronkonkoma station (with riders from all over central Suffolk avoiding the diesels) and the single track, causing limited capacity is a real problem.
Ronkonkoma trains are packed for a reason, they either need more trains on that line, or the tracks should be electrified up to Patchougue and Port Jefferson.
As I've said before, adding more trains to the Ronkonkoma line (whether by double-tracking or some other means) will be pointless because station parking is at capacity. Expanding the parking facilities might make sense, except they're already enormous - like what you'd see at a shopping mall - and any new lots would have to be a long, long walk from the platforms. I don't know if there's any land available for expansion, so this might be irrelevant.
If the LIRR is serious about wanting to take pressure off Ronkonkoma, they're going to have to get people to switch to the Port Jefferson or Montauk lines (which have plenty of available capacity). Riders insist on Ronkonkoma's one-seat ride because they're too lazy to drag their suit-covered anuses five feet across the platform at Jamaica. They're too ignorant to realize that they have to walk much farther from the Ronkonkoma parking areas than they're ever have to do at Jamaica. So, the LIRR will have to resort to a bit of compulsion. Two options that would work are:
1) Prohibiting people from buying Ronkonkoma monthly tickets unless they present proof of residence in areas near the line.
2) Charging a stiff premium for Ronkonkoma travel.
Needless to say, I don't see anything actually being done.
Parking can still be increased - up. Money would have to be spent on a multi-level parking garage. A large single-level parking lot is cheap, but in the long term environmentally unfriendly and foolish.
NJT did this in Elizabeth NJ. They're also projecting a shortfall of 246 spaces when their new Montclair connection will open, but won't do anything due to neighborhood opposition. NJT is smart, when people realize they can't find a place to park anywhere in town, the voices of people demanding more parking would drown out the NIMBYS.
That is smart. Why try to fight NIMBY yourself when you can arrange for some help?
Prohibiting people from buying Ronkonkoma monthly tickets unless they present proof of residence in areas near the line.
Can they even do this? I know the tickets are stamped with the line, but that's never stopped me before. I've used Zone 7 "Main" tickets to travel to and from Zone 7 "Babylon branch," and Zone 7 "Babylon branch" tickets to travel to and from Zone 9 "Port Jefferson branch" (with a step-up, obviously,) and a few other combinations, and nobody's ever given me a hard time. I assumed that the branch stamp was a formality, and that as long as the zones matched and the railroad had its money, everything was fine.
Mark
I'll second that. I ticket to Bayside will get me to Queens Village, and rvery conductor has accepted it as equivalent.
You're right, the branch stamp is a formality.
But they could move Ronkonkoma into a higher zone or restrict parking at the station to area residents -- if they wanted to encourage riders to use other stations.
You're right, the branch stamp is a formality.
But they could move Ronkonkoma into a higher zone or restrict parking at the station to area residents -- if they wanted to encourage riders to use other stations.
Or Ronkonkoma tickets could have a special stamp, which would not be a formality. All I know is that something has to be done, and soon. It is pathetic to see all the unused capacity on the Port Jefferson and Montauk lines, while Ronkonkoma is a horror show.
Passengers have not liked Port Jeff because of their perception of spotty service. The bilevels are an improvement, to be sure, but an infrequent schedule, mandatory transfers, and a single track with long distance travel do not make for a real popular line.
Yes, double tracking is the plans for the LIRR's 20-year plan lasting until 2016. It got a high priority in the recent LITP2000 study, and I think it will get done.
When the line was electrified a bit over a decade ago, the general upgrading included making room for double-tracking wherever possible. When the line was upgraded in the '80s the LIRR was given the kind of choice which highway planners never seen to have to swallow: they could get the Ronkonkoma Line fully double-tracked as a diesel line, or could get the line electrified, but mostly single-track. Management chose the latter, wisely I suppose.
I thought that the line looked like the option was built in, but I was not sure. Passengers at Central Islip station were confused as to which side the westbound train would stop on, and I believed that the signals protecting the westbound direction would give some indication, but I did not take into account the possibility of a scheduled meet at the station. If the line does get double tracked, how would service east of Ronkonkoma be increased? I rode out to Greenport one summer day and saw room for development out east, not that I am for that sort of thing. I guess more people out there would happen eventually, so some kind of plan should be in the works.
The 20-year plan also covers electrification to Yaphank. On the surface, this doesn't make sense--if they electrify to Yaphank (still relatively in the middle of nowhere) why not go to the population center of Riverhead?
My guess is that they're after Yaphank so they can build more huge parking garages on cheap land. With the LIE nearby, they probably figure they'll serve a lot more people more easily.
Now that sounds like just the sort of thing our political leaders would cook up.
i bought myself a fun pass as a chrismas/chanukah present last week... i used it yesterday, but i did not have much fun with it, as the weather was very cold and the service was slow... i would like to get a refund, and use the money to buy another fun pass for a great day of railfanning in new jersey on thursday...
heypaul:
Bearing in mind that the rule of thumb in the Army was to believe nothing that was heard, a friend who was learning Mandarin in the Army Language School said that the Mandarin word fun, spoken with a tone similar to ma [question], means "shit". If this be the case, you don't deserve a refund or replacement fun pass, because you had an appropriately shitty time.
I became even more skeptical as to the fecal meaning of fun when I saw Chinese Fun restaurant on Broadway near 51st (Manhattan), unless it's an inside joke.
Bob
Tough Tiddlywinks.
Let the buyer beware...
You're in luck heypaul!!
Having such stellar contacts within the TA, they have agreed to send you via US Mail, a replacement fun pass!
Send your old funpass to:
Jacque Schtrap
370 Jay St
13th floor
Brooklyn, NY 11201
please enclose $5.00 for shipping & handling
Are you sure it shouldn't be addressed to Ben Dover?:-)
LMAO! Hey Zman your actually makin out like a bandit with this deal jump to it!
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" As I've been called
Having recently spent the better part of a day on and around the Fulton Street and 8th Avenue IND lines, a thought occurred to me as I peered down the tracks trying to figure out just where our "A" train was headed - no matter where the train is bound, be it Ozone Park or Far Rockaway, it always says "A". Would it not be a better idea to have the trains bound for Far Rockaway wear the sign H, which is probably on their R44 front-end rolls, R38 bulkhead digital signs, and probably on the R38 side rolls too? They have the "J" and "Z" run in tandem, the "D" and "Q" (for the most part) as well, and the "N" and "R". In fact, the two "A" services almost mirror the way the "N" and "R" travel together through Manhattan and Brooklyn - why not give the Rockaway services the "H" (the Rockaway Park diamond "A" would be a diamond "H").
Any thoughts on this?
wayne
You know something? I was thinking the same thing myself!
It's ridiculous that there are two significantly different lines bearing the same letter. It's made worse by the fact that one of them serves the airport! Tourists are not supposed to be utterly confused by the subway!
:-)Andrew
Tourists would only get confused when leaving NY. Still a valid point...
Anyway, right until Wayne's post I was totally against the letter-splitting. But the thought of re-instituting MY LETTER was very influential, and on my favorite line yet! Of course, that would mean the A would no longer be 24-7.
I'm ALL FOR IT!! H to the ROCKAWAYS! Public hearing!
As far as changes go, this would not be a terribly expensive one. What would be needed would be plastic stick-on bullets for all the entrances, (for the overhead platform signs you could show A/H like you do J/Z), and of course, the cost of changing and reprinting the maps. I don't think you'd need to change the mylar signs on the subway cars at all. A little reprogramming might be necessary for the R44 side destination signs.
It would certainly remove any doubt as to where the train was headed.
wayne
Since it appears that bulkhead destination signs are on the way out with the Redbirds being retired, your idea is a good one.
I hate to sound like the Naysayer, but I disagree with this. The N is SUPPOSED to be a bridge Broadway Express while the R (really RR) is the tunnel local. To compare the fact that the Seabeach is "just" a branch off of 4th Ave the way Rockaway (where relatively few live) is off of the end of the A is ludicrous. Same issue for D/Q, Q is supposed to be the QB which means Brighton/Broadway Rushhour whereas the D is the 6th Ave. The H would merely duplicate the A in almost every way except at the end which is over 40 minutes from where everybody rides it. (IF you wanted to do this only in RushHour, maybe I could agree with you, like the J/Z stuff). While it is a pity they do not mark the cars clearly, I HOPE that the distinction is made before the split so that JFK/Rockaway riders know what train they are on and if they need to switch at that point. I must admit, I have only ridden to Rockaway once many many moons ago.
I will be doing some railfanning on Thurs. in the NYC subway. If any subtalk motormen are working, I would love to chat in person if its feasible to do. Feel free to e-mail me privately. -Nick
Where are you going to be going? Maybe I could tag along. Email me or post a response.
Mike
"Mr. Mass Transit" As I've been called
Join your fellow subtalkers on a tour of PCC's and LRV's!! See other post
Mike,
I will be arriving in GCT sometime late morning/early afternoon...depending what time I wake up :) I will first be on the #6 looking for an R142A, then I'll be downtown on the #2 looking for the pinstriped R142. If I have time, I may go over to the C to look for the red-striped car as well. If you are free sometime then, or on Friday afternoon, let me know in private, and we'll work something out :) -Nick
Congrats ?????????
So??
There must be some significance behind that number to Heypaul.
2 180's = 360 = Full circle
Could it mean something ?????
Congratulations, Paul! I wish it were me but if it couldn't be me, I'm happy that it was you. Way to go................
heypaul:
Congratulations upon message #180180.
BMTJeff
thanks jeff and steve... you guys don't know how long i waited for this... it was such a long time, that i have forgotten the significance of the number... but it felt good...
heypaul:
Your welcome.
BMTJeff
Made you look!
this is the other post that ws called
Thanks to BMTMan for posting yesterday, I apologize for the late notice; I’ve been cut off from the Internet until today (what a Xmas present).
Meet at World Trade Center PATH at 11am Thursday 11/28/00 in front of Fare Control (that’s 10:30am for BMTMan who runs a little late).
Weather Permitting, if it is snowing or too cold the group could deicide to stay in the NYC Subway system and go R142 hunting but the original plan is:
Take PATH ($1.00) to Newport to ride the extension of the HBLR. The group can decide how much of HBLR they want to do. In the end return to Exchange Place for PATH to Newark for the PCC’s on the Newark Subway, also walk about ½ mile to the new Subway Maintenance yard. Last time I was there they didn’t have the wire up and were moving the new LRV’s around with a TrackMobile.
Return to Newark, lunch in McDonalds if the group agrees. If you’re up for the expense of $2.50 we can take NJT to Penn Station. We will pass the construction site of the Newark Airport Monorail Station where the Northeast Corridor has been widened to 8 tracks and a new station is being built. If not it is back to PATH to the City.
For those that want we could go R142 hunting.
I will ask BMTMan or Thurston to take over this outing in the afternoon; I’ve been unable to get off from work (night shift) and will have to depart the group anywhere from 2pm to 3:30pm depending on our location at that time.
I look forward to this trip, see you tomorrow.
Sounds great. See ya tommorrow
BTW - The weather for tommorrow will be sunny and windy in the mid 30's.
> We will pass the construction site of the Newark Airport
> Monorail Station where the Northeast Corridor has been
> widened to 8 tracks and a new station is being built.
> If not it is back to PATH to the City.
Airport station is south of Newark Penn; the one you're thinking of is Secaucus Transfer-Allied Junction.
-Dave
Thanks Dave!
Thank Goodness, the official posting has arrived!
Just to let you know I will be closer to 11:00 NOT 10:30 as I will be taking some shots of Canarsie Line Shuttle service (yes, you heard that right). Apparently, due to work at dismantling the old East New York Control Tower, southbound L trains terminate at Atlantic AVenue (on track K-2) and a shuttle train wrong-rails down to Rockaway Parkway on P-2 track. (see related post).
In any event, see you guys tomorrow.
BMTman
doug meant to say: in any event, see you guys tomorrow ( or friday the latest ).
Just a note for those (just me?) who follow the ongoing drama of trying to figure out when the LIRR will ever operate their dual modes beyond the 4 rush hour round trips they now have.
On New Years Eve, the LIRR will run one DM from Port Jeff and one from Speonk into Penn Station, arriving at about 9 PM, and then a return trip to each station leaving at about 1 AM.
Chuck
They attempted to do this last year, but instead terminated at JAM and made everyone transfer. The thing is, 2 regular trains to Penn came before the one meant for the transfer, and when it did come it did so on track 4. I was the only paying customer on the 8 car train, so the Conductor gave me back my ticket with a "Happy New Year" comment. There were some police and crew in the first and last cars.
Of course, this trip was to arrive at Penn at around 3PM, and all it would do was replace an existing shuttle-electric combo with a direct train.
And yes, I follow their DM shenanigans closely as well. This year they didn't run their annual Breast Cancer Victory train in October, which traditionally turns the tables on Ronkonkoma passengers: A 9-something AM Ronkonkoma train (change at Hicksville for Port Jeff) is replaced with a direct to Port Jeff, change at Hicksville for Ronkonkoma.
We made arrangements to meet a friend for breakfast Sunday morning near Grand Central. Parked at Kew Gardens, got an 'E' (FULL EXPRESS service both directions on QB all weekend; great Christmas present!) to Lexington, up escalator and through labrynth to downtown 51st Street platform.
Lo and behold, an R-142 arrived! From the distance, I thought it was a Redbird due to a similar square front window and lack of large green '6' circle. And here we only had to go ONE STOP! It still had that new car smell, and ran very smoothly without the screeching usually heard on the curve going into Grand Central. The female announcement was somewhat less harsh and stilted than those heard on LI Bus, or the male announcements on the LIRR double deckers and HBLR. Some people were actually reading newspapers; looks like the novelty's worn off.
Funny how you knock yourself out trying to get a certain type of equipment, and get it strictly by accident.
I had heard the Newark PCCs were running for Christmas weekend only and wanted to take yet another 'last trip'. (Their retirement has been imminent as long as the Redbirds!) After food, we grabbed a '7' over to Times Square, a '2' down to Park Place (packed when we got on, emptied out at 34th)and PATH to Newark.
There were very few people at the subway platform, making it eerily quiet. Most Newarkites have no doubt gotten used to no service on weekends and didn't bother trying. After an unusual ten-minute wait, we got Car 19, whose heat worked too well; we had to undo our coats. Only the back doors opened, and a very large inspector checked everyone's tickets getting on and off. The driver had to motion anyone boarding at an intermediate stop to move to the back door.
We were ordered off at Franklin, which is unusual because whenever I've ridden during the week, I just stay on for the minute or so before we pick up a new load for the return trip. For that matter, in the four times I've ridden since the new honor system took effect, I'd NEVER been approached by an inspector. This one got us getting off and on again.
There weren't that many passengers overall, but some never seem to have heard of the concept of buying a ticket. ("WHAT ticket? I ride this every day and didn't know I had to buy a ticket!") This inspector hung tough, not letting anyone on without one, which forced people to miss the car and have to actually navigate the ticket machine. There was one last check when we disembarked back at Penn. At least one person grumbled that we shouldn't be put through this because it's Christmas.
There didn't seem to be much progress either at Orange Street or the Loop, but then I had ridden back on December 7. Construction was probably put on hold for the holidays, and they may not be able to do much if there's extreme cold or snow. For the first time I got a good look at the large turnout between Warren and Washington, which looked pretty active for the number of years it's been abandoned.
We got a very fast PATH back to WTC, walked over to City Hall and got a 'J' all the way to Sutphin, almost burning our bottoms on an extremely hot R-42 seat. The train was surprisingly empty; I've seen it packed by Essex in weekends past. But on this day there seemed to more homeless (on a mostly elevated line) than shoppers. At Sutphin it was downstairs to the 'E' back to the Turnpike, and then home.
The outbound express track at UT/KG contained a laid-up R32 signed up as a 'G'! Haven't seen anything but 46s on that line in years.
We have fare inspectors on our light rail trains in Denver. Since we've had them right from the start, people are used to the idea. The same rules apply: if you're caught without a ticket, you're in deep do-do.
Speaking of which, RTD just placed an order for 12 more LRVs with Siemens on top of the 6 units ordered last February. The new Southwest Corridor has been such a phenomenal success, there aren't enough cars to keep up with ridership. The drawback is that it takes two years to build the cars, even though they are considered a standard production model (SD100).
On Thanksgiving Sunday, I was on Newark car #1, so hot that several windows were open, and the female operator, eventhough me and my son were the only people in the car, admonished us for taking pictures on the property as she was going around the loop while we were waiting and in the interior of the car itself as we left Franklin Ave! I guess she has no respect for those historic PCC's! I think those NJT vending machines are more difficult to use than the MetroCard machines......I have to admit that there are a FEW CI rebuilt R42's with excellent heat. You got lucky!.....That R32 laid up at Kew Gardens over the weekend would have been working the G on Friday, and since all G trainsets are laid up on Friday nite (R layups are cut 4x4 for G service which becomes OPTO after midnite), that train was laid up there by the Continental dispatcher to be given to the E line on Tuesday AM. You do see an occasional R32 on the G when they yard is short on 2 car pieces (there are only 2-2car spares). That would be one less train that the E dispatcher would have to lay up there, allowing her to send an additional train to Jamaica Yard, or lay up an R46 to be transfered to F service on Tuesday to D4 south of Parsons/Hillside.
As a 30 year rider, I get ticked off when the train I am riding stops at a station where no one (or very few people) get on or off, rush hour or not. I think that if a station is underused, it should be closed, which would speed service on a line.
My candidates for closing are:
Broadway Brooklyn BMT - Bowery
Queens IND - 75th Avenue
Does anyone have any other suggestions?
...which would speed service on a line.
There are many techniques that NYCT has employed to slow down service. If your object is to speed service, then I'd suggest that you look to NYCT's rationale for imposing these techniques rather than burdening passengers any further.
As for 75th Ave, no way..that station is midway between two stops spaced approx 2 mi apart..kinda breaking that concept of being able to walk between stations..it may be a bit underutilized but is nonetheless a necessary stop along Queens Bl and won't be going anywhere anytime soon (in my opinion)..I agree that maybe the Bowery could go..but I think its the last stop northbound before the jog east onto Delancey for the Williamsburg so its necessary too in a way..I think only the M stops there anyway so the service must be poor at best..now, as for 138 St-Grand Concourse, or 145 St-7 Av..well..you tell me..
I'd close 28th Street on the #6 and Broadway BMT. The IND lines stop at 23rd and 33rd/34th, not at 28th, and a slightly longer walk is worth it if it speeds service on the local, perhaps taking riders off the Lex Express.
If money were available, a single new station on the Lex at Houston -- centered on Houston with entrances/exits both in Soho and the Village -- could replace both Bleeker and Spring. Once again you'd eliminate a stop, but still have a relatively short walk to Astor, Houston, or Canal. The transfer to the 6th Avenue line would likewise be improved.
Something needs to be done about Pacific, DeKalb, Lawrence, Court, Whitehall, Rector, Cortlant, City Hall. THAT is a drag. I'd drop Rector, requiring a short walk from Whitehall or Cortlandt. In Downtown Brooklyn, every stop but Lawrence is a key transfer, and Lawrence could be (to Jay Street). Perhaps Lawrence and Court could be combined somehow.
I'd have the Queens Express bypass 74th and Roosevelt at rush hour.
"Lawrence could be (to Jay Street)"
I agree they should be a connection b/t the (A.C.F) and (M.N.R) lines. This will be just as much convenient as the Broadway Bleeker connection.
"I'd have the Queens Express bypass 74th and Roosevelt at rush hour."
Good Idea! but, can the R (new V line) handle the passenger flow?
N Broadway Line
Astoria
("I'd have the Queens Express bypass 74th and Roosevelt at rush hour."
Good Idea! but, can the R (new V line) handle the passenger flow?)
I think it can, if they run enough trains. If fact, I think they are worried not enough people will use the V. Perhaps they'd need platform doors on the express to keep people back when the E and F are whizzing by.
With the E and F splitting off, I think they can get above 30 trains if they use the express tracks east of Forest Hills. The E and F would have only one stop for both of them -- at Continental. Get trains in and out fast enough there, and they do the merge/diverge fast enough before Queens Plaza, and maybe you could get 40 tph.
You can't run more than 30 TPH, because by MTA guidelines, there is a 1-minute headway requirement between trains, and it takes at least 1 minute to load/unload passengers, so that's 2 minutes per train per station. What they should do is run more "E"s than "F"s since the "V" local will also service the 6th Avenue line, and there are never enough "E" trains running between 53rd/Lex and Penn Station at rush hour.
I don't think that any line currently has more than 30 TPH, but the QB express line, IMHO should have 17 "E"s and 13 "F"s.
Happy New Year to all!
You can't run more than 30 TPH, because by MTA guidelines, there is a 1-minute headway requirement between trains, and it takes at least 1 minute to load/unload passengers, so that's 2 minutes per train per station.
The MTA requirement is based on distance between trains not time. The distance is based on providing a 750 foot buffer between trains after a following train comes to a stop.
Translating this into a figure for the maximum tph involves a simple kinematic equation involving a train's current velocity, braking and acceleration rates, train length, signal system delay time and station dwell time. When all these factors are taken into account the current capacity for the system is slightly in excess of 40 tph or 1 train every 90 seconds. (If the acceleration and braking rates were raised to what is currently used elsewhere this figure would be raised to around 50 tph.)
If you were to take the time to measure the dwell time at stations, you would discover that the busiest stations come in at 20-25 seconds average. Even a completely mismanaged operation like Grand Central comes in at 35 seconds.
and there are never enough "E" trains running between 53rd/Lex and Penn Station at rush hour.
Why doesn't some of that crowd disperse and take the 1/2/3/9 to 42nd and the shuttle to Grand Central, or walk to Herald Square and take the N/R to Lex? Yes, it's a bit more inconvenient, but it seems like everyone who crowds the 53rd/Lex transfer thinks there are no alternate routes.
I've tried those options you mentioned, and it adds at least 10 minutes to your morning commute. In addition, for the "1,2,3,9" to "S" route, at Grand Central, you still need the "6" to get to 53rd or 59th (unless you walk), so you're talking about 2 transfers when the "E" (with more trains) gets you to Lex/53rd in 12 minutes. When you're pressed for time, and in bad weather, walking outdoors when there's 1 train that's goes exactly where you need to, well, you know New Yorkers...There will now be NO REASON WHY there can't be more "E"s than "F"s on the QB express line with the addition of the "V".
I thought I read here that it takes a good 20 minutes just to get out of the 53rd/Lex station. If the other routes only take ten minutes more, it sounds like they'd actually be quicker.
And I think most people who take the E from Penn to 53rd/Lex are transferring to the 6, not leaving the system there.
I've tried those options you mentioned, and it adds at least 10 minutes to your morning commute. In addition, for the "1,2,3,9" to "S" route, at Grand Central, you still need the "6" to get to 53rd or 59th (unless you walk), so you're talking about 2 transfers when the "E" (with more trains) gets you to Lex/53rd in 12 minutes. When you're pressed for time, and in bad weather, walking outdoors when there's 1 train that's goes exactly where you need to, well, you know New Yorkers...There will now be NO REASON WHY there can't be more "E"s than "F"s on the QB express line with the addition of the "V". Now adding a 34th Shuttle to the east side would be a great idea, however, until the LIRR East-side connection is built.
Adding more E trains would be OK, so long as the additional trains scheduled synched up with the number of C trains along Eighth Ave. when they merge south of 50th Street during rush hour.
Adding extra Es to the point that it required a cutback of C trains would inconvienence Fulton Street local riders in Brookyln and local passengers between 145th and 168th in Manhattan, where adding extra B trains couldn't help the situation.
"There will now be NO REASON WHY there can't be more "E"s than "F"s on the QB express line with the addition of the "V"."
WRONG
There IS a reason why there can't be more E's than F's. The F uses 50 trains during the AM rush. The E has a round trip time of roughly 40 minutes. If you run 50 trains on the E, that would be a roughly 48 second headway on the E line. Where do you squeeze in the F trains or the V trains? The other question is the E now uses 27 trains during peak am service. If you add 23 trains, where do you get the 230 additional cars? Hmmmm - there's a few things to ponder....
The E has a round trip time of roughly 40 minutes.
According the the schedules published on the MTA site the ONE-WAY travel time is 46 minutes. Perhaps you were confused with the time for the following round trip:
1. go from Jamaica Yard to Jamaica Ctr
2. start revenue service
3. discover some catastrophic failure to prevent it from continuing in revenue service
4. discharge all passengers at Jamaica-VanWyck so that passengers cannot transfer to an F
5. return to Jamaica Yard :-)
I would have assumed that Mr. MassTransitPhDstudent meant that the E and F services could have unequal headways not the same car assignment quantity. This is also impossible but for different reasons.
Of course, I was in error about R/T time. The fact remains that 50 trains with a 90 minute trip still means a headway on the E of less than 2 minutes.
"I would have assumed that Mr. MassTransitPhDstudent meant that the E and F services could have unequal headways not the same car assignment quantity."
Mr. MassTransit PHD Student did say MORE E's than F's. Now I know the democrats are big on figuring what people meant to say or how they intended to vote. As a Republican, I take people at their word
As a Republican, I take people at their word
I used punch card equipment for about 15 years. I also helped maintain an EAM room (keypunch equipment) while I was a teaching assistant in graduate school. I'm not sorry that I haven't used them for 25 years.
The read error rate was about 1 in every 500 cards. This was with well maintained keypunches and and card readers. This error rate was made it impossible to compile programs that used a couple of thousand cards. I had to write a tape based merge editor to keep my input decks small and error free.
Card reading equipment has not changed. I recognized one of the machines from the news clips as one that I used in the early 1970's. The punch cards used restricted punch codes to detect read errors - either Hollerith for text or check digits for binary. The voting systems do not have any read error detection. Cards that were misread by this system that were perfectly formed, no chads or dimples. They were simply misread by the readers.
Now given this error rate of about 0.5% and the fact that three counties comprising 1 million votes used this system, one would reasonably conclude that 5000 votes were misread. Moreover, no amount of running the cards through these same machines would have improved the accuracy - a different set of 5000 cards would have been misread. The election was simply closer than the machine accuracy.
I do not know whether or not a complete and thorough hand count would have changed the election result. I do suggest that the republican statement that such a count would do "irreparable harm" to the country is a very dangerous doctrine.
I would suggest that proponents of this doctrine reread and try to understand the subtle meaning of the oft quoted "...governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed." from the Declaration of Independence. I would submit that in an electoral democracy this means the consent of the losers because the winners become the government.
It is intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer that punch cards are designed to be tabulated by a machine, not by hand. If the error rate for punch cards is unacceptable then before the next election Florida should buy more modern equipment so that every vote is counted as accurately as possible.
Then the machines, as you describe them must be designed to be more intelligent than any of us could have imagined. Just think, the machine could determine the intent of the voter and mis-read ballots ONLY from Democratic voters. Now that IS artificial intelligence.
What do ballot-tabulating machines have to do with the topic of this thread?
Just when I thought that only Republicans can't do arithmentic.
The read error rate was about 1 in every 500 cards. . . .
Now given this error rate of about 0.5% and the fact that three counties comprising 1 million votes used this system, one would reasonably conclude that 5000 votes were misread.
Doesn't 1/500 equal 0.2%?
Huh? How can the "E" have a round-trip time of 40 minutes? From where to where? I also never said to run 50 "E" TPH- I think I suggested 14 "E"s, 11 "F"s and maybe add 5 "W"s on the QB express line. The reason you can increase the number of "E"s and decrease the number of "F"s is because you also have the "V" running on the QB local track (say 12 TPH), which gives a total of 23 TPH on the Sixth Avenue local tracks. If you shorten the "F" line in Brooklyn to terminate at Church Ave. and extend the stub "G" to Coney Island, then the "E" and "F" would have approximately similar round-trip times, and number of stations served. You wouldn't be short any cars for the extra "E" trains- just take them from the "F", or am I not making any sense? (I just started my graduate program).
I don't understand your logic- why does the "F" currently utilize 50 trains during the AM peak and the "E" only 27? If that is so, then it's obvious why Penn Station is always packed between 8:15 and 9:15AM for commuters going to 53rd /Lex.
"I don't understand your logic- why does the "F" currently utilize 50 trains during the AM peak and the "E" only 27? If that is so, then it's obvious why Penn Station is always packed between 8:15 and 9:15AM for commuters going to 53rd /Lex."
The LOGIC is not mine but the reason is simple - The F line is nearly twice as long as the E line (time-wise). In order to get the same number of trains per hour on both lines you need nearly twice as many trains on the F line as you have on the E line.
I understand that, dude. So shorten the "F" line in Brooklyn as I suggested to Church Avenue (saves 12 stations, approx 17 minutes), and extend the new "G" (stub) line that will service extra 16 stations to Coney Island. The number of stations cut off the "G" in Queens (13) is roughly equal to the extra stations added on in Brooklyn (16), so no change to the number of "G" trains required. Meanwhile, by saving abut 34 minutes of round-trip time for the "F", you can cut back the 50 trains during peak to 40(?), and add those to the "E" line which has greater use for them now that you have an extra Sixth Avenue local "V" running essentially parallel to the "F" from Continental/71st to Second Avenue in Manhattan.
I know, people hate changing trains, and all of the "F" riders coming into Manhattan from south of Church Avenue will hate this idea. But consider this, the new "G" stub-line will have no train-yard at either terminus- that was the reason the MTA switched the "R" and "N" terminals in Queens several years ago.
In other words, all that matters is that service on the lines you ride is improved, even if at the expense of everyone else.
Queens Boulevard riders have three, and soon will have four, lines running into Manhattan. The Culver Line has only one, and you want to eliminate it?
The "G" will be the Culver line- I don't ride any of the QB trains, but find the Queens-to-Manhattan subway commuter problem to be a fascinating one that I may use for a thesis project.
I think there would be a lot of angry responses to that last one (74/Broadway)
Yeah. I use that connection to the 7 all the time--when the E/F is clearly backed up past help.
:-) Andrew
In Downtown Brooklyn, every stop but Lawrence is a key transfer
Interesting observation .... Lawrence St wasn't even part of the Dual Contracts ... it was added in later (late 20s, I believe) ...
--Mark
Space between stations is not that big of a problem anymore, now that free bus/train transfers have arrived. I took a bus to the subway for many years...its not a birthright for everyone to have a station within walking distance, especially if it inconveniences many other riders.
A bus/subway transfer recognizes that the subway can't go everywhere - but it's a long stretch to then say that a neighborhood station should close. Many people would prefer a car to a bus. To abandon a neighborhood station is shortsighted.
One station I have noticed that receives little usage is York St on the F line. If the station can be connected (in some way) to Dekalb Ave (creating the Rutgers St connection to the B,D,Q lines), it would receive more people (not so much from the metrocard/tokens paid but as a transfer point).
Besides, when the subway system was built, many stations throughout the city were once busy. Take the aforementioned York St. 25 years ago, it probably was a stop for all the people who worked at the Navy Yard. Rather than closing down stations, improve the areas so that the stations can be useful again.
And renovate the stations so people will want to use them. A good subway station is not merely a portal to the subway - it is one of the anchor-points of a neighborhood. It and the neighborhood can support each other.
"York St on the F line" "Rather than closing down stations, improve the areas so that the stations can be useful again."
RIGHT!
N Broadway Line
Astoria
DUMBO (Down Under Manhattan Bridge Overpass) is served by York Street station, and as the neighborhood grows and prospers, station usage should increase. Look at East Broadway - lightly used fifteen years ago, now that Chinatown has moved east, station is quite popular these days, dripping water and rat population nonwithstanding.
wayne
"DUMBO"
hmmm. Why the word Dumbo. I agree with everthing that was said in that last post. This post included. BUILD UP THE AREA AND PEOPLE WILL USE THE STATION!
N Broadway Line
Astoria
That area is certainly building up; expect a lot of it to be rezoned residential in the near future (especially since the city has been cracking down on the illegal residential conversions in the past couple of weeks).
And at least it isn't just called "Down Under the Manhattan Bridge" ;).
I work a lunch relief job requiring me to take the J from Delancey/Essex to Jay Street during the start of AM rush hour. York Street has a high exit traffic of Asians which work in the sewing factories nearby. This station also serves DUMBO (Down Under Manhattan Bridge Overpass) whcih could be the next SoHo.
Lawrence/Jay Street- TA has in the Capital Program, a plan to connect these two stations with a free transfer (also Uptown 6 at Bleecker to Broadway Lafayette.)
Another point to consider: if you close a station you redistribute the passenger load to other stations possibly increasing the wait to buy a token or MetroCard and possibly delaying trains due to door holding by those passengers in a hurry. Many of the local stations mentione din this thread have relatively narrow platforms. By increasing loading the risk of injury increases.
I do not think we should close stations but add more entrances to those stations having the capacity .
"York Street has a high exit traffic of Asians which work in the sewing factories nearby. This station also serves DUMBO (Down
Under Manhattan Bridge Overpass) whcih could be the next SoHo. "
Probably sweatshops. I do see alot of chinese take the B,D,Q one stop to Bway-Lafeyette then cross over and get a Brooklyn bound F.
Is the York street area dangerous? Run down?
If that's the area under the Manhattan bridge on the Brooklyn side then it looks pretty bad.
It would probably break my heart to see all the sweet girls working in a dangerous sweatshop. :-(
If that's the area under the Manhattan bridge on the Brooklyn side then it looks pretty bad.
Appearances can be deceiving. The area, since it lacks residents, is not dangerous in the slightest. Meanwhile, west of the bridge, some of the former warehouses are now yuppie homes.
(Appearances can be deceiving. The area, since it lacks residents, is not dangerous in the slightest. Meanwhile, west of the bridge, some of the former warehouses are now yuppie homes.)
Moreover, I had to get off there and walk through the projects to the east many times, to pick up a city car in the Navy Yard for field work. No one ever bothered me.
Would you rather see these "sweet girls" selling their bodies on the street? Working conditions in this country are a damn sight better than they were a century ago, when many "sweet" immigrant girls worked themselves half to death, often under dangerous conditions. Remember the Triangle factory fire (1911)? Nearly 200 people, most of them girls and young women, perished when they were trapped on the upper floors of a garment shop; the owners had locked the doors to prevent theft, the fire escapes collapsed, the building's fire hoses didn't work, and fire engine ladders went only as high as the 6th floor. (Most of the victims were on the 9th and 10th floors.) Many girls chose to jump out the windows and die instantly, than to suffer in smoke and flames.
So don't feel too badly for those sweet Asian women. And to the poster who suggested closing stations on the Queens IND...forget it! Queens doesn't need fewer subway stations - they need more subway LINES.
There was some talk about making a connection from the old BMT lines over the Manhattan Bridge to the Rutger St. tunnel -the route the "F" now uses from Brooklyn to Manhattan. I believe that the bridge lines should get a separate tunnel under the river - any accident blocking the F in Brooklyn past Jay St. would cause serious headaches if the line was shared with other lines. The current configuration has a safety built in - the A&C lines can be used in case of an accident on the F, and vice versa. All future construction should be built with this sort of a fail safe backup in mind. How about it, folks?
Who would want to be stuck in a tunnel under the East River during rush hour while a broken rail is being fixed? The Manhattan Bridge lines had the same kind of fail safe configuration before the Christie Street connection was built, and now we are suffering because of it.
Lets hope that you never have a title of power in NYCT.
If you closed 75th Av, someone would probably come to your house and shatter every window you have. Those seniors in Forest Hills can be quite a rowdy bunch.
145 St - 7 Av on the Lenox #3 is desolate on one side because the northbound side is exit-only (a la 238 St on the #1).
I forgot abt that..they actually prohibit entering the train NB..crazy..kinda like a switch from the SB 3 from 148-Lenox Term to the NB 2..I used to have to go all the way to 110 St..I think you still do..
The Bowery station is beneath Delancey St. Canal St. is the last stop before the big turn from Centre St. to Delancey.
you're right..i stand corrected..thanx..
"I agree that maybe the Bowery could go"
This area could be redeveloped into a major residential area. Then, the tracks serving this area could be reconfigure to go along the 6th Avenue route.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
I definitely think the BOWERY stop should go- in fact, I think it was closed for some construction work about 2-3 years ago. The station is in an incredible state of disrepair and reeks of urine (at least the last time I was on the platform, which was by accident). I'd bet it costs more to operate the station than the passenger revenue it generates. After 9PM, I think more homeless people sleep there than passengers boarding or exiting trains. Maybe with the Capital Program plans to do some work on the Nassau Street line, the BOWERY closure will be included.
Actually (as has been posted previously when this subject has been brought up) ridership at that station is on the rise again, due to the changing demographics of the neighborhood. Remember that the goal of the subway is to provide SERVICE - and it's rather hard to do so when you close a station. Yes, there have been numerous closures over the years, but AFAIK there are only two subway stations that (1) have been closed without having an alternative station on the same line within the distance of three Manhattan short blocks and (2) have not been associated with the abandonment of an elevated line. Those two are Myrtle Avenue in Brooklyn (demolished due to the rebuilding of the DeKalb junction) and Court Street (now home of the Transit Museum), and both served areas that were already well-served by other subway lines. And the remote possibility exists that one of those - Court Street - could see service someday in the future, if the plans are ever revived for another set of tunnels under the East River in lower Manhattan.
Every stop on the Sea Beach Line....;-)
BMTman
BMTman:
I think that #4 Sea Beach Fred is going to be very mad at you when he reads this. In addition I would never even consider abandoning an entire subway line for any reason whatsoever unless that neighborhood it served no longer existed.
BMTJeff
I would never even consider abandoning an entire subway line for any reason whatsoever unless that neighborhood it served no longer existed.
Heck, there are a couple of stops on the A in the Rockaways that serve 'hoods which no longer exist!
GOOD POINT!
To BMTJeff: as usual I'm just busting on Sea Beach Fred...I think he'll get the yoke.
:-)
BMTman
Why, soitanly. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.:-)
"Every stop on the Sea Beach Line....;-)"
DAMN! It must be really bad over there. Well... SEND THOSE N TRAINS THIS WAY!!!
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Mitch45:
I don't know about you but if I had to close one subway station it would be Beverly Rd. on the BMT Brighton Line because it is too close to Courtelyou Rd. so I don't think that it would be much of a loss to anyone.
BMTJeff
Perhaps. I have noticed how close that station is to Cortelyou. The question is, which one provides better service? Is Cortelyou an express stop?
Mitch45:
Neither station is an express stop.
BMTJeff
They are both local stops, originally built to serve the landowners of the area (going waaaay back to the pre-BRT days ...)
Cortelyou is served by the B-23 bus (going on memory); I am not aware if Beverley Road is served by a connecting bus or not.
--Mark
I am not aware if Beverley Road is served by a connecting bus or not.
No, it is not.
None should be closed. NYCT provides a service.
In Boston I would like the MBTA to close some of the green line surface stops. currently there are far to many stops on the B line and few to many on th C line.
I agree. With as many stops as the Green Line has, it's little more than a glorified bus route outbound of Kenmore Square. They could easily eliminate every other stop on the B and C branches, providing much faster service and people still wouldn't have to walk very far to catch a train. (Of course, Boston being Boston, the local residents would probably scream bloody murder nonetheless.)
Here in Chicago, the only stop that really comes to mind as being redundant is the Wellington stop on the Brown Line. (God knows we've seen enough stations closed over the past few years.) Wellington is barely a couple blocks south of Belmont, as opposed to the usual practice of CTA stops being roughly a half-mile apart to correspond with the city's street grid. Wellington's only saving grace (and probably its only reason for being) is that it's adjacent to the Illinois Masonic Medical Center, a major North Side hospital.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'd say there are very, very few stations that should be closed. I'd say 169th and Sutphin on the F just to piss off the opponents of Hillside Express service ;) but I'd just be kidding.
A few that I might consider:
28th St on the N and R
28th St on the 1/9
(But keep 28th on the 6.)
And maybe one or two in the Rockaways
28th Street is used by far more passengers than you might think- i.e.- Baruch College has a major classroom building at 26th & Park- some people use the 6, others walk a few blocks and use the N&R. Parts of the neighborhood above 28th St along Broadway is also being redeveloped for residential use. I don't think that any uptown or midtown Manhattan stations should be closed- the passenger use is high enough at every station, and especially during the cold weather and late nights, it would force more people into taxis.
[Park- some people use the 6, others walk a few blocks and use the N&R. ]
26th and PAS is equidistant to 23rd and 28th Street stations on Broadway.
Arti
My candidates for station closings are NONE. NONE should be closed.
There are, however, some candidates for closing during Owl hours, that is, Midnight (or 1 AM) and 5 AM. Bowery would be a candidate here; 21st-Van Alst on the "G", East 143rd St on the #6, a few others too. But permanently closing any of these? NOT. NOT. NOT.
wayne
(My candidates for station closings are NONE. NONE should be closed.)
I think there is a tradeoff in station spacing between how far you have to walk and how fast you ride. More stations mean shorter walks, but a longer ride. Back when people did hard manual labor all day, a short walk might have been important, but these days we butt-sitters need all the exercise we can get.
The IND stations are well spaced, but in some cases IRT and BMT stations are just too close together, perhaps because they were trying to compete with trolleys. To me, that is a reason to close/merge stations.
Totally agree with you dude, on the 21st-Van Alst and Bowery stations, at least as you say for the "Owl" hours.
York St. Maybe have alternate trains skip the station instead of closing it entirely. In either case, the station wouldn't be physically removed; if demand increases, service can be increased as well.
Dean St. Wait a sec -- what's that you say? The TA already closed that one? Aha! See? The TA does take our suggestions!
57th/6th, iff the sensible routing to 63rd is via 7th. (Not that I see anything terribly wrong with the official proposal via 6th.)
I'm surprised no one has nominated 18th Street on the 7th Avenue IRT. I've heard that the decision to renovate it, back in the late 80s - early 90s, was controversial because it's so close to the 14th Street express stop.
28th & 7th could theoretically close, too, but since that's a major entrance to FIT it probably has enough traffic to support itself. Plus, with large new residential buildings going up in North Chelsea, the 23rd street stops may not be able to handle the load.
Either 39th Av on the N, or 36th street on the G/R, but not both... they're pretty close to each other and not all that busy. Closing one would probably make the other a bit more useful.
Though the reality is a few new stops on a few new lines would be nice...
I've noticed that the downtown platform of the closed Worth Street station is a lot longer than the uptown platform and often wondered why. After asking many people, motormen and TA personnel included, I finally got an answer from Joe Brennan. He told me that the east side IRT platforms were extended during two separate programs, in 1948 and 1962. The downtown platform was renovated first and extended to 10-car length in 1948 (when 18th Street was closed). When the time came to extend the uptown platform as part of the 1962 program, the Brooklyn Bridge station was extended northbound to connect with the BMT Chambers Street stop, thus giving Brooklyn Bridge an exit to the street one block south of Worth Street. Thus, the uptown platform at Worth Street was never extended and the entire station was closed instead.
While this makes sense and I'm sure Joe's right, does anyone have any further details about this?
That's about right. When Brooklyn Bridge was extended northwards, it was decided to do so to the extent that the southern end, complete with gap fillers for express trains, could be closed off. At the same time, the long-abandoned westernmost platform at Chambers St. was partly demolished and walled off. If you were to knock that wall out now, the platforms of both stations would be in plain sight of each other. In fact, if you look at the outer wall of the northbound local track just past the northern end of Brooklyn Bridge, you can see one of the tiled columns of Chambers St. station. I saw it two months ago.
I work downtown and live in Queens, so I have a lot of subway options to get to and from work. I've seen that tiled column numerous times, and find it hard to believe that this column is actually shared by both stations, because the stations are on different levels (I think).
One other thing: if the TA isn't going to close off the abandoned eastbound Chambers Street side platform, why not restore it and turn into an adjunct of the Transit Museum? Its still in very good shape.
AFAIK, both stations are at the same level relative to each other. The Centre St. subway was built directly beneath the street, as was the original Contract One line.
Thinking back, a cross-the-platform at Chambers Street to the uptown Lexington Ave local would have been interesting ..... then you would have had no need for that wall ... and maybe Chambers St would look much different than it does now.
--Mark
That would be one vast station!
8 tracks and 7 platforms on one level, all visible at the same time. In NYC this is only present in Coney Island, and they only have 4 platforms. Underground the very thought would be almost unthinkable. If the wall were not present, Chambers may have been rehabbed along with the lex.
Think of it as "before" and "after."
In the subway lexicon, are these three terms used interchangeably, or do they actually refer to different levels of abandonment?
A friend told me that the terms are applied as follows:
"Disused" - means that the facility is not currently being used, but is still being maintained by the TA so as not to fall into complete disrepair. Examples would be the BMT-IND connector between the BMT Essex Street and Bowery stations, and the BMT Canarsie-Broadway (Brooklyn) elevated connector.
"Abandoned" - means that the TA has stripped the facility of all useful components, sealed all reasonable access to it and allowed to fall into disrepair. Examples include the IRT platforms at 18th Street, Worth Street and 91st Street, as well as the lower level of the 9th Avenue stop on the BMT.
"Closed" - is a general term that can be used to describe either a disused or an abandoned facility.
Does anyone have any input on this?
That sounds reasonable, though the lower level of 9th Ave / 39th St is in better shape that you might think.
--Mark
The rails were shiny this weekend on 2 of the 3 tracks, and the plaform was all lit up. Is that normal?
Frequently, "abandoned" is used to indicate that the railroad has permanently relinquished ownership or control of the property while "disused" simply means that they aren't using it now. For example, the New York and Harlem RR has abandoned its ROW south of GCT while the LIRR Rockaway Beach Line is merely disused, AFAIK.
any legal or illegal way of visiting these facilities??
Joe Brennan's abandoned & disused station guide gives a "best view" for those that can be seen. Some are outdated, like 42 St/8 Ave lower level.
The 18th St station is closed to the public, not abandoned. The ROW is obviously very active No part of the underground subway system coluld be abandoned because drainage and water pumping have to be maintained. There may be some surface ROW that once served for long gone El, RR & trolley connections. There is no public access from the street to City Hall loop station either. Obviously, it is not abandoned.
The old El tunnel between Anderson and Sedgwick Aves is an abandoned ROW and structure. All of the NYC trolley private ROWs were abandoned. I think the SIRT South Beach ROW was abandoned. Various LIRR brances like the Whitestone branch were abandoned.
The former NYB&W stations north of NYC that were still in existance were abandoned structures and ROW.
I get a morbid thrill out of these "Darwin awards" and "complete idiot" posts as much as anyone else, but maybe we shouldn't, er, jump to conclusions concerning the man run over by the 7 train yesterday. According to the Daily News story, a link to which was posted here, he owned a business and had a family. There was no indication in the story that he was depressed or left a "Goodbye cruel world" note or anything.
I don't know the details of the incident, but unless some definitive conclusion is reached, we shouldn't assume that he deliberately jumped. It's not impossible to imagine that an accidental fall or even a deliberate shove could look like a jump.
Thanks, Peter... I was thinking the same thing... a number of years ago a college classmate of mine fell from the Mid-Hudson Bridge... most of us assumed at the time that it was a suicide attempt, since the young woman had recently broken up with her boyfriend and was on academic probation as well. She was in a coma for a couple of weeks after the fall; when she came to the first thing she said was "did anyone find my bicycle?" It turned out that she had lost control of her bicycle coming down the hill to the bridge and flipped over the railing. A passing pleasure boat pulled her from the water but the folks on the boat apparently hadn't actually seen her fall - just heard the splash behind them - so no one knew to look for the bike.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For Christmas, I got a new computer (Yes, it does have all the old pages for my web site, but it doesn't have a working floppy drive.), and a good sum of money. I used some of the money to buy the latest track map book, and a postcard of a scene Redbird fans hope will NEVER happen again: A set of R62 cars, all with signage, rounding the curve into the Queensboro Plaza station, with the Queensboro Bridge in the background. It's always interesting to see something different on your subway line; but it's better to know that the usual cars aren't saying bye-bye.
Can you tell me where to get that R62 #7 postcard? I would like to see it! Do you have it scanned or in your Transit Point collection? Thanks.
I think I've seen that photo. Wasn't it taken in 1984 when a train of R-62s was running tests on the 7?
Yup, On the back of the post card (available at the NY Transit Museum), there's a caption showing the date as "4/84."
i was riding in an r142 yesterday, nervously looking out the side window for the nearest emergency exit... we were passing slowly underneath 88th street moving at about 8 miles an hour, when i heard todd glickman's voice come over the p.a. system with a special weather advisory warning that 8 feet of snow would fall on the city last night in about 1 hour's time... he further announced that although the sea beach lines probably would be impassable for about 2 months, people should not skate or ski over it for fear of falling through the snowbank and coming into contact with the 3rd rail... when i arrived home last night, i immediately readied my 4 foot extension stilts for use when i go out in the morning to buy a quart of ice cream...
nevertheless, i am happy to report to all out of towners, that 8 feet of snow did not fall last night and probably the weather forecast i heard was some anomaly due to an unshielded speaker wire...
Right. That's more Transit & Weather Together than even I need!
I wouldn't mind a foot or three :) If it buries my car, I can call in sick :)
-Hank
PS-How is that forcast for the weekend firming up?
-Hank
They say snow for Friday night. Predictions are something like a few inches then turning to rain.
However, expect more inches of snow to fall on heypaul's apartment, burying him and his R-9 cab forever in an 8' snow drift.
BMTman
The computer simulations continue to try and form a storm along the east coast. But there's nothing there now (NO, the ice storm in Texas isn't it!). Some human meteorologists like to look at these pictures with squiggly lines on them and pretend they can predict the future with more certainty than the science allows. That's why you hear diverging reports, and predictions that seem to zig and zag. Up until about 24-36 hours away, it should only be taken as an "alert." Thereafter, we can be increasingly confident, but mindful that we don't create, nor control what happens.
There. I feel better now.
What do I REALLY think? I wish I could be at Seashore this weekend to run the snow sweeper and snow plow trolley!
[I wish I could be at Seashore this weekend to run the snow sweeper and snow plow trolley!]
I wish it would snow enough so that the LIRR would have to use "Jaws III" pictured below in Greenport:
THAT is a cool plow!
-Hank
To see if it will be necessary, you can tune into WCBS Newsradio-880 from 6:00pm to 8:00pm this evening for a brief session of Transit and Weather Together.
Well, I've heard predictions that varied between 6-8" and 12-18". All at least, are saying snow (Bill Evans on WABC-TV said 'Winter Weather Event'. Jodi thinks there's a pool to see who can avoid saying 'snow' the longest.)
-Hank
Over 24 hours from the "event" it's like trying to predict what time a certain Slant-40 car on the Q will arrive at W. 4th Street! Tune in at 6:08 and I'll do my best.
Actually I don't think it's gonna happen. It's always the same...the weathermen tease you and tempt you, they lay that crippling, city-closing snowstorm forecast out all week...and then, what happens? The storm goes inland and it rains (that happens most of the time) or it goes out in the Atlantic. The talking heads chirp, because another snowstorm has been thwarted.
The drums pound. The clouds gather. The crowd hushes. And then...
Until the snow is past my ankles and on its way to my knees, I don't believe it. 8 to 14 inches, my eye.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Until the snow is past my ankles and on its way to my knees, I don't believe it. 8 to 14 inches, my eye.]
Except in heypaul's apartment that will be covered in an 8' snow drift. Mark my words...
Today I went for some Railfanning. I went to Rosedale station near my house. I saw 415 on the tracks leading towards babylon. I guess this means the Bi-levels are allowed once again on the st albans Viaduct. I was talking to the Engineer until I went to Jamaica and changed to a Train to Brooklyn. I rode 9285 to Flatbush. I got off and waited for a uptown 2 Train. it is now 10am. I see a number 5 stop at Atlantic. He stops and dumps? I guess he tried to pull a full service and failed. because he quickly charged up and left. I took the 2 and was watching for the R142. I was on a Redbird. then on the way into wall street I saw it leaving wall street. So I caught a 2 to follow it. I got off at Franklin and waited for it to come back uptown. It came and I rode 6341. I rode it to 96 and then went back downtown on a redbird 2. then caught 5584 on the E back to Jamaica Center. The LIRR and R142 were the best part. Also, I was teaching a 8 year old boy on the LIRR about the Train. it was a great day!
Were these ever used in regular passenger service? It seems that the City went to an awful lot of work and expense in building these tracks, so I have to believe that they were once used regularly.
Were they?
Sure . . .till maybe 10 years ago, alternate rush hour Fs terminating at Kings Hwy used them.
The express tracks between Church Avenue and Bergen Street were used in passenger service between 1968 and 1977. There were many variations in the express service during those years.
From 1968 to 1975 there was true peak-direction express service on the "F" from Kings Highway to Bergen Street. The expresses stopped at Kings Hwy, 18th Ave, Church Ave, 7th Ave, Bergen Street. "F" expresses terminated at Coney Island, "F" locals terminated at Kings Highway. I'm sure others will supply more details.
And the trains using the lower level stopped at Bergen Street?
Yes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
despite many provocations from fellow subtalkers, i have until now never used the killfile... however, one poster has become such a persistent embarrassment to this message board that i have decided with a heavy heart to put his name in my killfile... henceforth, i will no longer read any of heypaul's posts... i have humiliated myself enough in public... i can no longer stand the spectacle that i am making of myself...
regretably, this will do little to discourage me from posting further... i just won't have to read them...
You're one sick dude!
heypaul,
While you do have a good sense of humor, your continuous off-topic posting does get to be rather annoying; could you tone it down at least a little bit? -Nick
Oy! What a dull world we'd live in
if it weren't for the occasional
slapstick....
Hip Hip.. heypaul
"Man Censors Self..."
Like that's really possible! :)
heypaul for MTA President
You have to expect the unexpected from heypaul.:-)
That's a gem! I can't wait until he can't see his own posts!
wayne
Must have been that cheap birthday cake he alluded to the other day.:-)
LOL !!
Today i saw an 8 or 10 car train of r42s(possibly 40Ms) at 207th street yard, next to a 4 car set of r-30s
Was this a crazy reroute?
Abe,
That's as crazy as saying that an intern
has never set foot (or dropped shoe) in
the Oval Office.
?huh?
:0)
I have been told that 207th Yard is doing SMS on the CI rebuilt R42's. The M/K R42's are being done at CI.
Funny how the TA isn't letting CI touch the CI overhaul 42's?
By the way, my brain isn't working today. What is SMS?
It's like a muni overhaul where they pre-determine after so many miles or years of use certain parts have to be replaced. The tracks and couplers are shiny and parts repainted. In the case of the R42's they are putting in new cab window hardware so they will hopefully not slide back and forth when you open the window a bit and are also installing new air conditoning units. I hear the air conditioning units are a/c powered for more dependability. But you may notice they have a very annoying "whine" to them.
>>>But you may notice they have a very annoying "whine" to them.<<<
I have noticed them but I did'nt know if the HVAC unit was replaced, etc. Now I know.
The new windows are great though. They may be a little stiff at first but at least you can crack it open for ventilation without the window moving from side to side anymore.
Did you know that RCI's won't touch the new windows? Unless the condition is hazardous unless corrected, the RCI's have been ordered not to repair them as they fall under warranty.
4928-9 are back from 207 st.
do they use the nassau-6ave connector
Of course.
London newspapers about Dec 16 carried headlines something like:
'ROBERT KILEY performed a miracle on the New York subway'.
Can someone tell me what Kiley did 'on the New York Subway' and when please?
I believe this very question was asked and answered a couple of weeks ago. Try looking back through the posts.
If I am not mistaken, Kiley was instrumental in setting up the Capital Planning system which was begun in 1982 to rescue the subway and commuter rail network. His contributions were both political and managerial (in a strategic sense).
The Capital Plans between 1982 and 1999 provided the framework and funding in which a lot of things got done: the removal of graffitti, the ordering of new subway cars, the rebuilding of tracks, signals, tunnels and stations, and the completion of the Archer Avenue and 63rd St lines. A list of priorities for the 2000-2004 Capital Plan (still in flux due to the failure of the bond act) can be found on MTA's website, http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us
Try looking back through the posts.
That's not as easy as it was when we could do a text search. One can only hope that Dave will restore that feature someday.
Interesting article... comments?
Paris trains to fight crime with closed carriages
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It'll be successful .... until people start complaining about the lack of seats ....
--Mark
How about running a few trains with undercover Surete officers!
>>> How about running a few trains with undercover Surete officers! <<<
That seems a litte extreme. Perhaps flics or gendarmes but not the Surete.
Tom
Why? If the LIRR and NJT can get away with it, so can the Paris RER... closed coaches is not a groundbreaking idea.
-Dave
I can recall as a conductor on the D train in l965-66 when we were isolating the last 2 cars on an 8 car train. In any such operation it seems foolish to have those cars on a train at all. Paris with 6 isolated out of 8? They must have a lot of money to waste.
Just how was that accomplished on the R-1/9s? Drum switch settings, perhaps? Inquiring minds want to know.:-)
Exactly. set the drum switches at the 6-7 car position off, and lock both storm doors. Too bad we didn't have radios then because there were times riding was heavy enough and could have gotten authorization to open the last two cars. A lot of time lost when people stood by doors that didn't open and you hoped they'd hear you...up here please! Of course I was 5 cars away.
Thanks. Which leads me to my next question: if the last two cars on, say, an 8-car train are isolated, where would the conductor be? Between the third and fourth cars, or the fourth/fifth?
Someone once posted that then-Mayor Wagner ordered the last two cars isolated on trains late at night as a crime reduction measure.
As my memory serves me...but I could be wrong [it's been 34 years or so]we worked between the 3/ 4th cars. Drummed up as you'd call it 3 and 3 but I guess that refers to operating position. With cars isolated guess we didn"t say 3-3 and 2. That was why I said we'd be 5 cars from those waiting for dooes to open, but since you ask..the truth is I don't remember if it was 3 and 3 or 4 and 2.
Wouldn't a much easier solution be to just run two car trains instead of making some funky control thing* and add wear on cars that aren't carrying passengers? Ahh the French. The only places where I could see where you would need a funky control thing is on lines 1 and 14 where the trains are of fixed length.
*technical term
Well, NJT doesn't shorten their trains either, they simply close off cars during non-peak periods. Apparently the issues of turnaround time and flexibility are more important than operational wear. In a discussion a long time back on this board someone with NJT experience posted that having to reconfigure trains on a regular basis would mean a 20% reduction in availability, thereby requiring more equipment, and would also require a significant number of additional yard crew - not to mention yard and terminal space. Compared to that, the additional wear is cheap.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They used to do that on Conrail between GCT and New Haven; can't say for sure about Metro North. On weekends, trains from Grand Central would have the first two cars isolated and closed off. Bummer because I didn't get my railfan view. It was different on the 5:02 express on weekdays, though.
Just to point out, the article mentioned suburban trains which I think means the RER- the Metro is already closed at night and from my personal experience over there, there's never a period where the trains aren't that busy; especially the last few of the night!
Yeah, I know they said suburban trains and not the Metro. I was hoping no one would catch that :) I don't know anything about their suburban trains, so I used what I knew as an example.
I finally got to meet a fellow railfanner in the flesh for the first time. Yesterday I hooked up with Brighton Beach Bob, my pal and foil. We met at Los Angeles' Union Station and rode both the Red Line Subway and Blue Line light rail to Long Beach. There we picked up Bob's car which was shipped from Hawaii, drove back to LA and had a Mexican lunch on historic Olvera Street, site of the original founding of Los Angeles. Bob is a great guy, and really knows his stuff. He started his five day drive to Virginia today and should get there by Sunday evening. He told me to tell everyone that he will get back on-line as soon as he get settled in. One of the reasons I'm looking forward to retirement is that I might have the opportunity to hook up with some more railfanners and swap stories and notes. I had a helluva time, and I hope Brighton Beach Bob did, too.
I got swindled into going to our local mall with my wife today, and though I always like to be in her company, she is a shopper to the max. I thought it was one of those days until we hit Pacific Sunware. I saw a hat that really knocked me for a loop. It was a Stussy Brand cap, black and silver, and what it had below transfixed me. It said N4. Wow!!! Needless to say, Linda was convinced that hat ought to be mine and I'm wearing it as we speak. Just in case some of you don't get it, N is the Sea Beach line, 4 used to be the Sea Beach line until the mid 60's. This hat will be worn until it rots on my head.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
That hat is just for you. You'll be known as Mr. #4 Sea Beach Fred. Maybe the Sea Beach Line should be dedicated in your name. Hopefully they'll return it to its former grand status that it once had.
BMTJeff
not a bad idea, naming the #4 after Fred. If we can't get the MTA to do it, maybe someone who isn't a total HTML illiterate as I am could make up a sign for the line or one or it's stations honoring Fred and post it.
Geez I hope your head doesn't sweat like mine... :-) (Or is that why you said it would rot there????)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey, Fred, I just got my photos back from my October excursion. One of them is a shot of the side signs of an R-32 on the N, and the route sign proudly proclaims, "N-Astoria/B'wy/Sea Beach".
Find a very special place for it Steve, and please don't put into the scrap heap in the back of something. Display it proudly. Sea Beach Fred is honing in on you and my antenna will pick up any disrespect towards his train on your part.
I still would have preferred seeing the original R-32 curtains which would have had 57th St. on the upper destination and plain old Coney Island on the lower, with N-Broadway Express in the route slot. Rest assured, I thought of you when I saw the N-Astoria/Bway/Sea Beach route sign. I automatically think of the N whenever the R-32s come to mind, and it ranks up there as a sentimental favorite. As Paul Harvey says, now you know the rest of the story.
Proud of you Steve! Keep up the good work.
This hat will be worn until it rots on my head.
Considering the rot that it covers, that shouldn't be long :)
-Hank :)
OK Hank, it looks like you picked a page out of BMT Doug's book. I can do without the sarcastic comebacks---if that is how you meant it.
It was a comeback, but not meant as sarcasm. I meant it as a joke, as in 'HAHA, you're old!'
-Hank :)
Had a few strange things happen on the LIRR today. Got on the first train at Sea Cliff, once again there was no automated announcements and the red LED said Woodside.
Got To Mineola where we had to change. The Manhattan-bound train was 10 minutes late, but at least the front car was open. I sat in the front seats and there were alot of LIRR employees there as well as what appeared to be some railfans (this was the 1:57pm out of Mineola). Some guy said he worked a yard in Morris Park.
Stopped at Hillside, then Jamaica, where several employees got off. No one collected my ticket yet, it was punched twice on the first train but they usually collect it. (I guess I can't use it again since it was punched)
The conductor walked through after Jamaica but never asked me for my ticket. Is it possible he thought I was a RR employee?
Then somewhere by the Sunnyside yards, some workers flag our train down and we pick them up, the engineer opens the side door (not the front).
Never heard of LIRR trains stopping to pick up workers, even though I've seen subway trains do it.
Then I was talking to the engineer about the condition of the tunnel. Just beyond the portal there were a lot of leaks (in the north tube)
with ice all over the trackbed. The engineer said the tunnels are leaking more each day. I asked him if the south tubes were better but he said that even though LIRR uses them, he hasn't been through them.
The tunnels to Penn don't look too good though.
We went in on track 16, usually my train never arrives on that track. Alot of the usual bell ringing before Penn.
Later on this evening about 7pm i was in Great Neck and saw an eastbound LIRR train pull in on the westbound platform, never saw that before.
Subways were crowded all day, from tourists I guess.
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains
Amtrak owns the tunnels into NY. They won't fix them until they finally break and flood the station...
Oh yeah, for the award for creepiest signal has to go to the "Stop High Water" ones in the PATH tunnels. I'd think if there was that much water, I'd not only want to stop, I'd want to chnge ends and get out of there....
Where exactly are these "high water" signals in PATH? I've never seen them.
Heard on the news that there was a water main break in Harlem, which flooded the 125th street subway station on the IND, and temporarily interrupted service. Sounded like a real mess.
Then later tonight I heard on the news of a shooting around the 103rd street station on the 6 in Harlem, with trains bypassing the station.
Seems to be a lot of bad stuff going on in Harlem lately, then again it's not one of the safer areas of the city anyway.
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains
Railfanning in Yonkers today, I stopped by the Kawasaki rail car site and saw the R142As from Japan.
R142A 7209 on heavy-duty wheels for transport from Port Newark
A bunch of shrink-wrapped R142As
Pastoral setting with overview of prep yard for 7321-7337 (expect these to arrive at Fresh Pond soon. They were working on door mechanisms today)
Overview of Kawasaki rail car site. Wrapped cars in in the parking lot in the back.
More wrapped cars. This one appears to be 7374
Description on wrapping.
-Dan
nyrail.cjb.net
142's never looked better!!
These get trucked to 239th Street Yard from Yonkers. You're getting these confused with the Bombardier 142s which come from upstate. I wonder when 7209 is getting shipped down to NYC?
-Stef
This just in..... An R-142A set numbered 7341-45 destined for 239th Street Yard was missing in action tonight. Reports said the delivery was spotted north, somwehere in the East Haven Area. It seems the driver, a crazed railfan, thought the set was to be delivered to Branford Electric Railway Association for testing, before final delivery to NY. The cars are safe and sound, running up and down the 100 year old railway and now brings the Museum to year 2000 compliance.....
Do I sound delirious yet?
-Stef
No, Stef. It only sounds like you've contracted 'heypaul's disease'.
;-)
BMTman
It isn't full-blown HPS, however. Once you stop using your shift key, that's it.
[Once you stop using your shift key, that's it.]
Right, Steve. Once you become totally SHIFTLESS, you are then catagorized as having full blown HPS.
BMTman
Well last night at about 10:15, they were delivering #7316 to the 239 st. yard. They passed right by my house.
Vernon P:
Would you have photos of the cars by any chance?
BMTJeff
Have another Krispy Kreme, Stef..
:)
hey dan... were you out on your bike taking these pictures?... i ride my bike year round about 10 miles a day... in the last couple of cold windy days, i find riding to be scary... even with two knit hats over my head, i really worry about wind chill and getting sick... if you were out on your bike, do you feel the cold?
i liked your use of the word "pastoral" to describe the scene... it makes me think that the cars have been put out to pasture...
I wasn't on my bike this time. It was too cold (I do feel it) and the rail car yard was very close to the MNRR station. The rest of the time I do take my bike.
-Dan
I can tell you that in the Bronx, the cars travel Van Cortlandt Park South between the Deegan and Moshulu Pkwy. I've seen them there twice. They also run through Getty Square in Yonkers, passing directly in front of the old NYC station.
A note or two about the deliveries...from Port Newark/Port Elizabeth, the cars are loaded onto dollys, which mount to the truck mounts on the cars. (ever see a log truck?) They're covered in tarps, not shrink-wrapped, for their trip from Japan. Trucks for the cars are shipped seperately. At Yonkers, the rail trucks are attached, and the cars are loaded on special low-boy trailers in essentially ready-to-run condition. (just add 3rd Rail Shoes) These trailers have seperate steering and brakes from the rest of the rig, and a generator provides the power at the rear end; the trucks must be steered from both ends.
-Hank
Interestingly, the Kawasaki site had a short length of electrified track with unspecified voltage catenary. The yellow contraption in this picture has its own trucks and a pantograph to collect power. Also, there is a power cable coming down from the pan and into the subway car.
-Dan
nyrail.cjb.net
That cantenary is likely variable voltage.
-Hank
Delivered as of 8:49PM this evening!!! Passed northward towards the East from Linden Yard with N2, RD332, N1, 6410-09-08-07-06, Locomotive 73.
Two notes of interest: 6406-6410 were greeted by a train of in service 142s heading south, which were ironically 6400 series cars. 6411-20 were soutbound at Prospect Av while the Linden Yard Transfer was heading north in the middle. How bizarre....
Also, I've been seeing the same recurring loco lashup of N1,N2, and 73. I've come to the conclusion that these locomotives call Linden Yard home, as they pop out of here regularly.
-Stef
Opps! Stef, I forgot to pass on a message from Mike that he had heard a diesel horn blast @ approxmiately 7:05 this evening. That was probably the consist of R-142's heading up the wye connection and onto the New Lots Line for The Bronx.
At least it's good to see NYCT has gotten back into a reasonable schedule of delivery for the 142's once again.
BMTman
I'm convinced that N1 and N2 spend more time at Linden Yard then at 38th Street Yard these days, with all this 142 movement. Is this a correct assumption?
-Stef
what modifications have been made on the cars?
have the bugs been worked out?
are they being produced to a final set of specs?
how many sets are in regular passenger service?
It's good to hear from you again, heyfollo!
bob... i am serious... are the cars running on any regular kind of schedules on either the #2 or #6?... on today's subtalk sickout, lou from brooklyn wanted to ride the new cars, but where can you find them?... seeing dawheelflange's pictures yesterday of the cars in shrinkwrap, had me wondering if they are actually planning on shrinking them down to ho size and selling them at the museum stores...
Hmmmm...Shrinky Dink R-142s. Interesting concept
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry that this may be a little late for you, but the plans for Arnold Joseph is as follows:
Graveside services will be held at Beth Moses Cemetary in Pine Lawn, (LI) New York.
Services are at 11:00AM, Thursday December 28,2000
Cemetary info # is (631) 249-2290.
The LIRR Ronkonkoma line runs near there. This would be the Pinelawn Station. Beth Moses would be south of the tracks on Wellwood Ave. a few blocks or so on your left.
LV: Penn Sta 8:09AM / Flatbush Ave. 8:15AM AR: Pinelawn 9:10AM
LV: Penn Sta 9:16AM / Flatbush Ave. 9:03AM AR: Pinelawn 10:14AM
The next train would stop at Pinelawn at 11:14AM
LV: Pinelawn 11:34AM & 12:34PM
Southern State Pkwy Wellwood Ave. exit. Follow signs to cemetary. Beth Moses is on right before tracks.
Cause of death was reportedly due to Parkinsons Disease and cancer.
Bill "Newkirk"
It is with substantial regret that we learn of the death of Arnold B. Joseph. Having known him for about four decades, it would be remiss of me not to share who he was and what he did for all SubTalkers, E.R.A. members and other groups interested in, and committed to, public transportation.
Arnold was essentially a shy and very knowledgeable man. His appearance changed very little over the years, but his personal advocacy of public transportation grew prodigiously and thus he was most serious and convincing. His knowledge of traction publications, from masterpieces to manuscripts, was, perhaps, unparalleled. Even if it was mimeographed (as so much of the priceless original materials in our avocation were), he knew about it - and often had a copy! His intellect worked with computer-like precision (a term he would not have appreciated): - mention the area, the line, the company, the colors, the logo, the crest and, presto!, he knew what you were talking about and could lead you to further information on the subject and/or tell you authoritatively that nothing had been published regarding it.
As the great traction empires were abandoned or destroyed, he picked up on their successor operators and properties, and was particularly well informed about sources of data. Arnold was our "Internet Search Engine" decades before there was even a concept of such a thing and remained a unique information center through the end of his life.
One of the great privileges of this traction fan's personal experience was both witnessing and participating in dialogues between Arnold and Roger Arcara. Now, they are conversing again in the place their Heavenly Father had prepared for them.
SubTalkers, traction enthusiasts, E.R.A. members, casual subway aficionados- make no mistake! Arnold B. Joseph was your friend, your advocate and your resource. Unless you have a very hard heart, take a few minutes (or longer) to thank the Almighty for the gift of this man to your hobby or interest. A lot of what you and others know stems from him. Peace!
Nicely worded.
--Mark
i was wondering if you could tell us a little about arnold joseph... what was his age?... when and how did he get interested in mass transit?... did he have a family?... what will happen with his collection?...
i once read an article about your friend roger arcara in a train magazine, and the article said that roger was a very private person... if any of my questions would violate arnold joseph's sense of privacy, i would understand your not be able to answer them... i was just interested in getting a sense of him as a person...
i was just interested in getting a sense of him as a person...
I went to his shop/office only twice, both times relatively recently. The first time was just after the newspaper article about railfans, which included a picture of your motorman's cab, so that should give you an idea of the timeframe. Others can perhaps give you a more rounded view; the following are my impressions.
His office was packed positively to overflowing with all sorts of transit materials. While giving the impression of complete chaos, he knew where everything was. In addition to rapid transit materials, he had loads of material on various railroads.
It became obvious that his love of the hobby came first, and any commercial considerations were a very distant second. We talked for hours the first time I visited, and we only stopped because I had to leave. The second time, I just dropped in to pick up some items he'd acquired for me, and we again talked for quite a while. I promised that when he got the next item I wanted in, I'd bring him some of my prints of historical H&M photos. I think he wanted them for his collection - if he'd offered them to anyone, get in touch with me privately and we can arrange something.
He didn't have much use for "that modern stuff" like the Internet. His phone was a black rotary Western Electric 500 set - no touch tone for him! And, of course, no FAX machine either. I can see why he got along so well with Phil Coppola (the author of the Silver Connections series, also hand-typed and hand-illustrated) and was Phil's exclusive agent for the books.
I would have liked to spend more time with him (as would many of the folks posting here), and he will be missed by many.
thanks for your memory of arnold joseph... it's interesting to see how many people were touched by this quiet man.... with so much of his knowledge and experience stored in his head, his death is a great loss to the history of transit...
terry... when he talked about trains, did he speak matter of factly, or did he speak with feeling and passion of his love for all things railroad?...
his death and the reaction of many people who knew him gives evidence of the power of a life that is driven with the love and understanding of something that has callen us to do its bidding...
I've already mentioned some of my dealings with Arnold, and confirm most of the feelings I've read here.One thing I'd have to add is it was good knowing amajor railfan as railfans were beforethe age of intellectualism. He wasn't a redneck, just was a regular person.
I guess the best I can offer is that some of you will be the Arnoldd of the future, there will be a torch to be passed on.
I never met Mr. Joseph personally, but based on what has been said about him, I get the impression that he always had time for you.
He had time for everyone, Steve - that's just the kind of man he was. I wish I had known him better.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Earlier today a GO was in affect that had Canarise trains running as a shuttle service between Atlantic Avenue and Rock. Parkway between the hours of 10am and 3pm. It will be active until Friday (12/29) at 3pm.
The Brooklynbound train I was on terminated at the old Pitkin island platform, doing a double-crossover (triple yellow) of first K-1 then switching finally to K-3.
The train disbursted passengers and everyone walked under the complex, past fare control and then walked up the northbound island platform staircase to wait for the L Shuttle. Immediately, I noticed the signal at Atlantic was covered over with burlap and that the trip-arm was straped down in a bypass position. When the train pulled in and everyeone boarded, I assumed the T/O had prior clearance from Command to pass as I did not hear any radio operations coming from the cab, as we pulled out going south. All stops were made and wrong-railing surprisingly continued past Livonia despite the fact that there is a switchover just north of the Livonia station.
Anyhow, I hope to get some shots of this operation before the 11am meeting at WTC.
BMTman
When there's only one train running on a single stretch of track, the affected track is put in an absolute block, with signals being covered with bags, and stop arms hooked down for irregular operation. No need to consult with control unless there's a problem aboard the train. I'm going to assume the train had an operator on each end. Is this correct? It will certainly speed up train movement since the shuttle is the only one operating between Canarsie and Atlantic Av.
This kind of operation has also occurred on the Dyre Avenue Line, when GOs are in effect there. The train would operate out of the middle at East 180th St bypassing non-functioning signals and cross over to the southbound track, wrong-railing the entire way to Dyre Av.
-Stef
[I'm going to assume the train had an operator on each end. Is this correct?]
You are correct, my good man.
BMTman
Absolute block and TRAIN ORDER (G.O.) the GO modified it to on block and allowed them to be there and said they were the only train there. There has to be somthing in writing as well as the single block!!
I'M HIGH ON THE LIST FOR THE NEW MOTORMANS JOBS, AND HAVE A NUMBER OF QUESTIONS. IS ANYONE ON THIS BOARD A WORKING MOTORMAN?
--THANKS!
Weren't the R40's designed to be run on the 2 Ave subway? If so, that's why they were tested doing 80 mph, or something like that. My question is, on what strech of track along 2 Ave would the R40 find the space to travel that fast? By the time it accelerated to that speed it would have passed the next stop. On MARTA, the longest strech between two stations is like 5.5 miles and they only get up to around 60 at most. Having a train to go that fast between two stations is like a moron who steps on the gas at a green light just to brake at the red light one block down.
The plans for the second ave line were for stops at 125, 105, 96, 86, 72, 57, 48, 34, 23, 14, Houston (F), Grand (B,D,Q), Chatham Sq, Pine/Wall, Whitehall (N,R).
The stops are sufficiently spaced for 50+ mph in some instances. The high speed test you're referring to was just to "see what she can do." Nothing more.
And it was not with the R-40, it was with the R-44. I've changed the subject accordingly (and removed the improperly placed apostrophe).
The R-44s and R-46s were designed for use on the 2nd Ave. line, which in turn was designed for 70 mph speeds.
Ok then, if the intended speeds were supposed to be 50 mph, then that would work. Using the kinematic equation from Physics we all should know, Vf2-Vi2=2aS, where Vf is final velocity, Vi is intial velocity, a is acceleration, which I used as +/-1.34 m/s2 (+/-3 mph/s for those living in the stone age), and S is distance. The total distance travelled from rest to rest would be .23 mi @ 50 mph, assuming the train hit top speed for a spilt second and then started negative acceleration. At 80 mph, you get .59 mi, and since I figure that typical IND station spacing was about 1/2 mile, that wouldn't have worked.
How long is a block in Manhattan? The longest strech on 2 Ave would be 20 blocks, so how long could the train actually stay at 50 mph?
Hey Pork: The Other Nasty Meat, I thought with numbers you can use an apostrophe, like in a year (the 90's).
Apostrophies are generally used with possessives, not with general plurals. Mind you, I'm not an English teacher....
20 Manhattan blocks is exactly one mile.
Well, I really don't know how fast they go, but try a D or A train running express from 59th to 125th... now that is one screaming ride!
It was even more of a scream 20-30 years ago. Not to mention thunder and blazes. The R-10s were tailor made for that express jaunt.
Sorry for the same old broken record...
And I doubt its faster than the Broad Street Express, running up to 64 MPH under Broad Street in Philadelphia. And those trains sure SCREAM, and really loudly too.
Sorry for that broken record.
Maybe my disdain for the R10 has more to do with the fact that I only rode them on the C local, and not an express run. Even though those monsters moved really fast in the Cranberry St. tube and along the Rockaway line, I guess their speed potential was diminished on the C.
One of the fastest express runs that doesn't include the Brighton line was when they had the pre GOH R42's on the northern D line in 1986-87. The cars may have been dark, with broken doors and covered with grafitti, but they shot up CPW like a rocket ship.
Only when they didn't have 3 dead motors per train!
Yes, CPW was great, along with a lot of other stretches. I still think it was best with the R1-9. But my vote for the fastest stretch of all: The Lex from 86-125 st. with the Low-V, etc on the sxpress before there were timers. 103 and 110 went by like a blur. But that was ages ago.
That 5 train I took on August 9, 1967 really moved up Lexington Ave. 103rd and 110th were blurs, all right.
I grow up on the A, B, C, D and #1 lines, and everyone I knew know that the A was the fastest of all of these lines.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Since your handle claims the N I haven't given the "BMT" much credit in this thread..how about a nice fast ride between Pacific and 36 st on the 4th Ave. express? That was highball!
As for the A train I'll give the credit for being fast to the limited number of stops all the way to the Heights. The best part of the run was shared with the D train; below 59th made enough stops, oh well. Plenty of fun riding wherever you look. Few think about the Fulton exp. in Brooklyn. it used to be quite fast.
It's this run where the lack of slants on the B really hurts. But having them run on the Brighton exp. more than compensates for the speed freaks.
Yeah, those slants really rumbled along 4th Ave. when they ran on the B.
The line as originally planned -- 2 tracks, all local stops,
didn't warrant high-speed service. R-16s could have made it.
The acceleration figure (which is 2.5 MPH/s) only holds for
the initial portion of the acceleration curve, which on traditional
series-parallel DC control as used on NYCT, is about 20-25 MPH.
Above that speed acceleration falls off approaching zero at the
"balance" speed. This means the distance required to reach
full speed is greater than you calculated.
Ok, I assumed acceleration was constant, in real life it wouldn't be like that. Without actually being there to measure the actual acceleration, I can only do theoretical calculations. The distance I calcualted was the distance from rest to top speed to rest. The distance it takes to reach top speed by my calculations is half of the total distance.
Hey Pork: The Other Nasty Meat, I thought with numbers you can use an apostrophe, like in a year (the 90's).
What the hell am I supposed to do, change the number and keep the wrong apostrophe there just so you can continue to make the same mistake over and over again?
I was just saying what I thought the rule was. What is the exacxt rule? When I wrote it, I wasn't thinking of R40 as a noun, I was thinking it as a number, like my example of "the 90's." Looking back, "R40s" would probably be right since "R40" is used as a noun.
I think pork is a bad tasting meat, that's all I was going for when I said "nasty," nothing personal aganist you.
I'm not insulted by your comment on the taste of Pork. I'm sure you wouldn't be insulted if I said that I thought human doesn't taste so good (just a thought, I never actually tried it).
And AFAIK, The 90's with an apostrophe is also wrong. It's just as wrong as doing good.
The turkey is good, you cooked it well.
The picture is hung, the man is hanged.
On MARTA, the longest strech between two stations is like 5.5
miles and they only get up to around 60 at most. Having a train to go that fast between two stations is like a moron who steps
on the gas at a green light just to brake at the red light one block down.
Thats what rapid transit WAS all about in NYC. In the 1960s, supposedly the R33s were delivered with power consumption timers, similar to those used to calculate power usage in our homes. Motormen were encouraged by contract and mandated by by rule to coast as much as possible to not only keep to schedule, but to save money. But in reality, before the press came out branding those as "cowboys", most personel operated ahead of schedule, developed full service braking patterns and the like. It is kind of hard today to keep to a schedule even with the padding of running times during peak hours, and with the 5 minute window to declare a late train as one that is on time on paper, the problem is likely not to be addressed.
I can't remember any talk about power savings on R33's nor can I ever recall being trained on such a thing. I was promoted to M/M on March 67. There was a coasting clock way back when on the R1-9, and along the right of way C [for coast] boards indicating when motormen were required by rule to coast.But this is all ancient history now. Maybe such an idea did resurface but it shortly died.
With dynamic braking setup as it was all R10-42 cars would go into what would be "setup" position on a diesel loco , but called dynamic drag on NYC subway cars, automatically when power was shut off by the M/M. There was a trick to making the dynamic drop out that worked on some cars, but under normal operation once you shut off the dynamic would start to brake the train so coasting wasn"t a normal practice on that [those] type of cars.
I wonder if the R-1/9 coasting practice was the norm on express runs. That D train on the very first CPW express dash I ever went on coasted for a good stretch before the motorman reapplied power at 103rd St, and the bull and pinion gears bellowed out an F# above middle C. The same thing happened in May of 1968 on that first E express trip in Queens. At 36th St., power was reapplied and the train let out a resounding wail. All I know was, we were MOVING!
Guess it pretty much depended on the motorman. As much as I liked the motor sounds I liked using the weight/inertia advanatge of the R1-9. Took pride in bringing them up the line without the cloud of blue brake smoke, unless I had a bad braking train. Couldn't see fighting it. Make station stops with a 6-8 lb. reduction and still thunder in.
I still wonder if anyone ever overshot the platform at 42nd St. on a prewar A train after roaring down that incline south of 50th St. On the only such train I ever got, nothing unusual happened; it stopped right on the mark. The thing I remember the most, other than the fact that the train had no headlights, was the two-tone bull and pinion gear serenade as the train accelerated out of 59th St., then as we reached the spot where the crash wall begins between the express tracks, the gears sang out a resounding F# below middle C and continued their ascending pitch as the train gathered more and more speed. How I wished I could have stayed on that train! Why did that ride have to end so soon after one stop? Same old story: we had a bus to catch. I didn't even have time for a CPW express joyride that day.
>>>Why did that ride have to end so soon...<<<
I get the distinct impression that, that ride is never going to end.
Peace,
ANDEE
I wish that R-1/9 ride had never ended....
Don't feel bad. Last night, when I was driving back from Smithtown (from a Gateway store where I just laid out a lot of $$$ for a PC, goodbye WebTV!), I was driving down Jamaica Ave., looking up at an el train which now exists only in my mind.
NO!!! You cant leave the rest of us WEBTVer*s. It just wont be the same. :):)
Train#1976Mike
It's time. I've been saving for years for this PC, and if I told everyone exactly what I was getting, the PC users in here would probably start drooling.
LOL
Well good luck. I will go in that direction later down the road........
Train#1978Mike
It isn't one of those R-10-like speedsters offered on the Home Shopping Network, is it?
Although my R1-9 rides live on in spirit I've never built a set of them. For some reason never built any transit cars over the 47-51 foot types.But the High-V's, Low-V's and el equipment will run again in S scale here some day.
Getting modern I started a set of Chicago 2400's and 2600's a few years ago but never finished them, wasn't happy with them as I lacked the expertise to build curved side cars that looked good. Guess I'm a square..ha ha. I do have a set of Chicago 4000's.
Nothing like living memories.
What are they for? They are about 6 inches taller than the platform, have rectangular indentations, and have gaps (presumably to allow workmen a way through). They're at Woodhaven Blvd (IND) and Astor Place.
Noise abatement.
Has anyone ever noticed the low cinder block walls put up between the local and express tracks at CPW stations? I can remember when those walls weren't there. As to whether or not they actually helped when the R-10s were still thundering along on the A is another story...
The capital plan calls for an elevator. How about 2 large, high-capacity elevators like at 168st (A/C,1/9)? That in conjunction with the escalator will certainly reduce crowding and move people more quickly. Home both elevators on the platform level during rush hour so that the moment a train arrives nobody ends up waiting (and causing dangerous platform crowding to build up). The rest of the people will see that both elevators have left and go for the escalator. During off-peak hours home one on each floor and only move the elevator from the mezz. after it gets reasonably full or when a train will arrive shortly.
Do-able, depending on available space for the extra elevators. As to "homing" the elevators, because it's a transfer stop, you can't assume that most traffic would be coming from either the street (or the IRT) or the platform. But two elevators would be nice.
That station's reconstruction is long overdue.
I don't know if you could put an elevator at the Lexington end of the station. Remember, the transfer passage and even the fare control area are both considerably west of the end of the platform. The space between the tracks probably narrows quickly, since the tracks are above one another at 5th Avenue.
Chuck
Doesn't the captital plan call for a walkway between 3rd and Lexington avenues, so that the people using the escalators at the east end of the platform can still transfer to 6.
Arti
That has to be one of the worst transfers! It takes like 10 or even 20 minutes just to move between the E/F and the 6. I don't why so many people use it!
:) Andrew
The same reason you do!
At Queens Plaza, ever notice how many people abandon the F for the R when both are in at the same time?
Actually, I hardly ever use the trasfer at 53rd and Lex. I've used it twice since I started commuting on the F. Once out of curiosity (Not worth it!) and once when the F was so desperately bad I had to get off (STILL nor worth it!)
:-) Andrew
MTA's subway system now has 36 stations which are fully or partially ADA-compliant. One interesting problem, beyond the fact that less than 10% of stations are ADA-compliant, is that reconstruction, being expensive and time-consuming, is, so far, not "balanced" between destinations.
For example, on the 7 line, Main Street is ADA-compliant, but no stations in Manhattan are (Woodside is, so passengers with wheelchairs can pay extra to ride LIRR into the city). Jamaica Center, Sutphin and Jamaica Van Wyck are ADA-compliant, but all stations on the F train west of there and east to 179 St are not, so wheelchair-bound passengers coming from Herald Square cannot use an elevator in Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, much of Jamaica and Jamaica Estates. (LIRR at Forest Hills is ADA-compliant). Coney Island will be undergoing an overdue reconstruction, but how many places can you get an elevator once you've gotten on the train headed in-bound?
Is it practical to pursue a more balanced strategy? For example, 74th-Broadway is being reconstructed. Should funding have been provided at the same time to ensure that 42nd St on 6th Av (for example) be made ADA-compliant on the same schedule? Obviously an integrated solution for a large station (Times Square, for example) is better than piecemeal reconstruction for each line.
Considering that Main St-Flushing cost $30 million to accomplish, how do you think this might be accomplished?
PS - I witnessed a man in a wheelchair successfully getting on the 53rd and Lex escalator, and getting off again. He even made it look easy (but he had excellent upper-body strength) People are adaptable!
42nd/6th is still under construction. Elevators are planned.
How about those stations that are half ADA compliant? 50th/8th and Howard Beach! True, someone headed to the Airport from Manhattan could stay on the train until the terminal and ride back, but it is highly implausible that someone would!
Fortunately for the latter, Howard Beach will be getting a $75 million dollar rebuilt station including full ADA access and integration with AirTrain. Contracts to be let out shortly, I'm told.
While they're doing that, perhaps they could find money to do 50th St at the same time...although other stations would probably take priority.
I want them to finish ADA'ing the 1-9 local platforms at Penn Station.
The BMT platforms at Times Square seem to be going backward. They used to have ramps.
The BMT platforms at Times Square seem to be going backward. They used to have ramps.
ADA specifies limits on ramp steepness. The ones at Times Square might've been too steep to qualify.
Specifically, an ADA-compliant ramp cannot exceed a rise-to-run ratio of 1:12, plus landings as required (about one 4-5 foot landing every 12-15 feet or so, I believe). That means a ramp with a vertical distance of, say, five feet (60 inches) must be 60 feet long plus about four or five intermediate landings. Local and state building codes may also have accessibility provisions even more strict than ADA. In many cases it just makes more sense to install an elevator or two.
-- David
Chicago, IL
They were. Those ramps were awfully steep -- and inefficient.
OTOH, they were part of the Times Square experience, as were the "back way" from the N/R to the 1/2/3/9 (which was closed off the last time I was there, I think permanently) and the little funky piece of artwork embedded in the wall in the passageway between the main mezzanine and the back one (which AFAIK is still there).
Those ramps were awfully steep -- and inefficient.
Actually those ramps were far more efficient in moving pedestrians than stairs that are replacing them. Their grade was also much less than 8%. They were ADA compliant.
as part of the current project, elevators are planned for street to Mezz and Mezz to N/R. I am not sure, but I believe The IRT plats will also get elevators.(7 line is a future project)
Guess I was wrong about their ADA compliance.
As for efficiency, yes, you moved once you got to them, but if you weren't positioned properly in the train, you'd have to join the crowds backtracking along the very narrow platform alongside them. That space is reduced with a staircase. I've also missed more than one train because running down a long ramp takes more time than running down a short staircase.
Penn Station IRT LOcal is going to get elevators.The hold up is property purchase but contracts are pending.
Penn Station IRT LOcal is going to get elevators.The hold up is property purchase but contracts are pending.
Don't expect anything soon. It took over three years to build the elevator to the shared express platform!
right! I did not say how soon :-)
The longer it takes the better. They're planning on slicing up a part of Sbarrows, the part with the windows facing the subway. Its the only place you can watch an underground subway line while eating.
I've posted on the "Bahn" thread which is only marginally on topic here - but I know how railfans are - everyone's fantasy is to be able to leap into a cab and go for a ride. I once worked for the TA as a conductor and a short stint as a motorman before the inevitable caught up to me - railfans don't usually cut it once they get their fantasy. I was just another who washed out. I was one of those folks who came in as the major wave of retirements hit in the Michael Quill days of the TWU - jobs were plentiful and $400 a week was like ... wow.
Did 6 months as a conductor before I was offered motorman school and just HAD to do it. School car, the works. Switching duty, humping. Loved it to death, even in the dead of winter. Alas, failure to put enough into the brake pipe on a layup caused some anticlimber damage and quite the headache as I played bumper cars at Coney. It really wasn't my fault, I had the pressure where it needed to be and suddenly the train went spongy on me. R1-9's could be like that sometimes. It just wasn't as much fun as it looked to be when I joined up.
At the time I lived at 204th and Webster Avenue (Third Avenue El was yet to come down) and was assigned to the Bronx/Concourse IND line (D, CC) and was proud to step out onto the toeholds to finger and pop the bottles on my beloved R1-9's (door operation controls on the outer corners of the car for those who never did the old IND smokers - hated the bingbongs, give me a LoV or an R1-9 ANY day) but natch like the TA did at the time, I reported to Coney even though I lived at the other end of the line and of course the split shifts made life unbearable as well. It was fun while it lasted but the job bit the bag owing to the weird hours and spending more time deadheading than revenuing. But I had my fantasy fulfilled for better or worse.
Eventually I moved out of the Bronx to upstate New York and still have fun with traction every now and then since I had friends on Conrail and I lived in Selkirk ... where many new cars and Supersteel LIRR stuff rolls through regularly. Prior to the CSX takeover of gonerail up in this neighborhood, it was quite common for me to grab a ride (and often the throttle) of the mighty diesel since I did manage to get a certification. As much as I enjoyed the R1-9's there is something REALLY special about *really* having some power in the traction. And AC motors are a delight since you can strain them with a heavy load at 2 MPH and they won't smoke on you and send the ammeter around the dial twice and then turn the glass brown. :)
Since I've lurked here for quite a while reminiscing, finally took the plunge and got posting privvies here. Since you folks seem to be a nice bunch, figured I'd say hello and show you what I look like (in my favorite toy - a GM SD-80MAC AC-traction loco) so you'd have an idea of who you were chatting with should we interact down the line. Mighty diesels are a genuine power trip compared to NYC's "electric train sets." Heh.
Boy and his ride on the left, boy and his joystick on the right. Apologies for the horrible coloring on the right image, bad scan. The cab on these puppies is as big as a living room and quite cushy by the way, a long long way away from the old R1-9 cabs ... in the left photo, that's a GE loco in the background (Amtrak, route of the pointless arrow - a Lake Shore layup) and the photos were taken at the north end of the Selkirk yards (Albany county) headed towards Schenectady. Now that CSX is running the show, I don't get to grab throttle anymore. CSX doesn't seem to have much of a sense of humor so it looks like Mechanik/J-Mech will have to do it in my old age. :)
WELCOME ABOARD, Selkirk TMO!
It's funny that you should reside in the town famous as the "turn-around" location for frieght trains destined for NYC from the mainland. I've always heard about Selkirk since it is long way around to deliver goods as opposed to the floatbarge operations between NJ and the Big Apple.
Thanks for you long post that gives us a look at mainline RRing. Actually, I enjoy frieghtlines as well as R/T as I have some friends w/ the New York & Atlantic Railway (frieght company using LIRR tracks to the Brooklyn Waterfront).
Keep the posts coming!
BMTman
Howdy dewd ... been following yours for a while. Thanks for the indication!
It's a pity that the FRA (Federal Railway Ars*h*les) don't have a sense of humor anymore. Used to be back years ago that
ANY railfan would get an open cab door, a ride in the cab itself and often a safe grab of the controls on a moving train. When I
was a strapper back in the 1950's, I knew a number of motorman (at the time I lived near the Marble Hill NY Central YARDS
- long since gone) and before Riverdale went highrise, it was a railroad town. Those who didn't work for the Central reported
to the 239th street yards. Add to that all those who logged out for the night at 207 St on the 'A' ... railroad boomtown and
most of Riverdale was "TA Irish" ... anoyone around long enough knows when motormen were small enough to actually be
COMFORTABLE in the old left-side cabs. They could stretch OUT in there. But an eight year old could grab the throttle if the
motorman would let them and they were interested in trains at all. I honestly feel sorry for the "hermetically sealed" transverse
cabs you guys have there today. Not even a railfan bay window on the storm doors anymore. Damned shame that is ...
Back when I was a kid, a few motormen would actually let you pull the controller to get the train moving, and they'd show you
that 30 pounds was good, 40 pounds was better and ease the brake handle through the dead zone and ease off a bit. Same for
the Sprague electrics and the combos on NYC ... Freight may be cool and all but there's nothing that gives more staisfaction
than transporting "geese" (that's what the squawkers were called back when *I* was in the TA [not this "M" nonsense, lower
case t, lower case a with anticlimber damage in the logo] was the railroad I worked for) ... by golly, I was a proud member of
the lost electricity reclamation agency at a time when you could count on enough steel dust to ensure a third rail jacob's ladder
that would beat the #2 express to 42nd street ... and no lousy timers. Heh.
But as I often tell my "Mighty Diesel" brethren, NYCTA had the ability to repair a wreck in 12 hours or less, rebuild miles of
track in a week and run a headway of 1.5 minutes ... sure the guys on the longhauls think the subway is a toy compared to what
they haul. But you know? When you tell these guys what it's like to haul the number of people in an hour and the number of
trains passing through an interlock in an hour and how fast a mess can be cleaned up and blocks cleared, they finally do have a
bit of respect for what folks in NYC take for granted every day. No RAILROAD could do what the TA does. No way.
I haven't lost the faith, bro ... gimme an R9 *ANY* day ... I even have my old "butt plug" (electric braking charge) ... ask
anyone who's piloted one. By BP and my church key ... that was worth the torture of woring on the property. Up here where I
live, got 7 acres. If I could come up with 600 DC, there's nothing I would love more than running an R4 again ... I always loved
those babies ... something my wife still doesn't quite understand the depth of passion of - and yet she's come to accept it. Heh.
(The stop is Tremont Avenue ... next stop, Bedford Park Boulevard. Watch the closing doors please, bing-bong) ... although
more often it was ... "srgdsh dskdwej ashdsjads kldsd brzp." Hey ... dis is Noo Yawk. Step lively!
I have to say, I've NEVER heard a lot of the slang you just used, but I find it amazingly believable. And I'm the local cynic.
-Hank
Be happy to decode the slang if the confusatorium is open for vertigo body surrender ... after all, I'm one of those "support" type individuals. Just been up all night (late shaft) and am in need of pillow interface lest I turn hallucinatory. Been years since last I did that without benefit of cameras and microphones. :)
I've NEVER heard a lot of the slang you just used...
You're just not old enough, Hank... I understood every word!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Welcome aboard! I think you and Big Ed could trade R-1/9 stories until the cows come home.:-) I loved riding on those old timers myself, and their assorted sounds were music to my ears, especially the whine of their spur-cut bull and pinion gears.
I always enjoyed letting the air out to the twin valves myself. And the compressors let you know when they were working. And there was something mighty special about four miles per hour on the powerup - when the whole car vibrated to that "gonna move now" frequency as it started getting ahead of the aceleration curve. When you had a few cars that still had motors on 'em, those puppies would MOVE. Where else in the system could you get away with a consist of ten that had only two motors? Loved 'em. Miss 'em. The pepsi cans they're running now just ain't the same. :)
You know what the biggest thrill was for me? Getting a prewar train with no headlights. Going through a tunnel with nothing except the tunnel lights providing illumination was cool. I-beams became silhouettes, and track rails were all but invisible. Add to that the moans, groans, grunts, snarls, and hisses those cars were famous for and well, it was sheer bliss.
I used to get the biggest kick out of watching the conductor do his thing while assuming the position, the way he'd peer one way, then the other, hitting those trigger caps one at a time to close the doors. Often times I'd see him hit the caps a few times as the train was leaving the station before he stepped off the step plates.
Heh. Yeah, it was amazing how many things could be dead as a doornail on those babies and they'd still run. After closing the doors and stepping down to give two buzzes to the motor, more often than not, would reach up, push the button and NOTHING. Then it was a matter of walking through a few cars, trying the churchkey and finding a buzzer button that worked. More than once, had to blow the horn twice from the middle of the train to get the iron out of the terminal.
Popping the bottle tops was the easy part - trying to get gloved fingers into the triggers underneath the bottles to open the doors took some doing and one cold morning, I pulled the gate out of the way, stepped up and watched the toe hold fall off when I climbed out. You learned to use the grab irons on those puppies. There's something mighty wimpy about pushing buttons inside a cab to open and close doors compared to the mighty ACF's and Pullmans ...
But yeah, running dark was actually pretty common. Made it easier to spot the home balls from further up the track.
Whoa - you mean the step plate actually broke off? Man oh man, one false move out there and you're a goner. Did you do a balancing act in that instance?
The RCI's warned us that some of them did that and the work rule was "don't let go of the grab iron until you've gripped the bottle." The last time I had been out there (125th, 8th) it was sorta suggesting that 145th might be the last time. Sure enough, it fell off and down into the gulley. The way things were back then (1970) they didn't take it out of service for that either - just had to move up a car and continue operating. It did get laid up once it got to 205th but I'm sure it went back out the next morning. :)
Great Post SelkirkTMO!
I'm just getting back to the SubTalk boards after a day of railfanning in New Joisey (sorry, I AM the BMTman after all). At about 11:00 I met up with fellow SubTalkers Bob, Paul, heypaul, and our trip leader, Lou at the WTC PATH station.
We headed over to Newark and rode the PCC's. Then we took PATH back to Exchange Place, and rode the HBLR.
It was a most EXCELLENT day despite the bitter cold.
BMTman
Thanks guys for the trip today. It was a bit cold but a great day overall.
Welcome aboard SelkirkTMO.
Thank ya! Just think of me as an old curmudgeon who kinda misses his brief stint with a subway is serious poo at the time that was desperate for any fresh meat they could hire to replace everyone bailing out at once and STILL I washed out.
I got hired up in '71 which was one hell of a time to get a gig. 4 months from being called up as conductor trainee to school car. Now THAT was a promotion track back then. Half the railroad retired that year and they were all getting mighty tired of the neglect of Mayor Wagner for the subways. Sure the redbirds were new at the time but nobody did squat for the B division back then ...
Correction ... made it sound like it was Lindsay's fault - John Vliet Lindsay was the patron saint of the subways at the time (even if it was his fault there were "Brightliners" and "bingbongs" which didn't work out so well [r-32 through r-46 purchases]). Wagner really let the subways (and the city) go to hell in a way that even Abie Beame [the reason *I* cut and ran] couldn't accomplish.
All Wagner gave "us" was the redbirds ... at the time, wooden cars were still roaming the BMT (except for "via tunnel") and R10's were the premium ride on 8th and 6th ... it was a time when every R1/9 was a "smoke 'em if you got'em" affair - anyone who wrode the IND at the time knew that special smell of burning curve-grease, phenolic, lacquer with a highlight of ozone that said, "The CC has left the building." Once upon a time, the subways were a wonderful cacophony of site, sound and smell (not based on human waste) and the flicker of 25 hertz incandescent lamps everywhere in groups of 5 bulbs with screw threads that went the wrong way.
Once upon a time, the train wasn't just a ride ... it was adventure. It was GAMBLING ... it was, in a word, "way kewl" ...
Once upon a time, the train wasn't just a ride ... it was adventure. It was GAMBLING ... it was, in a word, "way kewl" ...
It's a good thing that those days are over. The subways are a conveyance, not a thing of amusement.
Oops, I've probably hurt somebody's feelings. Didn't I, BMTJeff?
Mortally offended, bro. Seriously, were it not for Lindsay, the subways would be in VERY serious poo. That's what I meant by my comments that there was a conspiracy against traction in NYC with a fare that could NOT maintain the system and by the time I got on board, it had TRULY gone to hell and took the handbasket with it. What you guys have now is remarkable compared to the mess it had become. Ridership is up, quality of service way up - I may have landed in a time of "amusement" but at the time, the subways had become a DISASTER after decades of neglect. And yes, surviving it on a day to day basis as both geese and employee was REMARKABLE at the time.
If you got home at all on the same day you left, you were doing damned good. At the time, just getting a lurching hulk from one end of the line to another was its own reward. But I'm sure there are others who remember the subways as a complete disaster that will likely chide in and say "allo'" ... bonjour! :)
hey man... i've been enjoying your memories of the good old days... back in the '70s i took a cheap cassette recorder and recorded the r9's on the ll canarsie line... i have a 90 minute cassette of the cars running, which i have offered free to anyone who wants it... i also have some philly broad street sounds, which made even the groaning whining r9's seem quiet... if you want a copy, or if anyone wants a copy, just e-mail i will be happy to mail you a copy... i'm the comedian with the r9 cab in my apartment...
Wow ... hate to say it, but since what I grew up on (and threw up on) is long since gone - living only as single cars in museums (an R1/9 can't be taken for its true value in trolley car mode and not a consist of 10 cars playing buckaroo) the sweet cacophony is embedded in the ear drums and with a simple audio reminder through Mechanik, the cab view train simulator's sound track in "subway.zip" mode, it leaps back to life automatically, I'd take you up on the offer.
Before coming to the TA, I worked for WBAI on 39th street, in the brownstone above the Vera Institute of Justice, 3rd floor edit with Millspaugh and Coffey and have some Nagra recordings of my own ... to me, nothing says R9 better than the dual valve braking of Pfff-THFFF. Once upon a time, trains made music just like an Alfa-Romeo used to. Today, they bore.
[i'm the comedian with the r9 cab in my apartment...]
The 'comedian' part is questionable, but the 'r9 cab in my apartment' part is NOT up for debate!
BMTman
Heh. And I thought *I* was a sick pup ... tell me, bro - do you get indication and does your buzzer work? If so, I'm in love - won't ask, won't tell.
I'm a choochoo nut, but I don't think I'm QUITE that far gone yet. :)
But the musical question is, "Is your love light flickering at 25 Hertz?"
Heypaul has the controller and brake valve set up BMT-style; i. e., controller on the right and brake valve on the left.
As for his audio tape, I recommend it highly, especially if your stereo has a good amplifier. I crank the volume when I play that tape so I feel as though I'm actually on the train. All those classic R-1/9 sounds are there - compressors, doors, load sensing valve, brakes, and the spur-cut bull and pinion gears. There is also a recording of a ride on the CC; if you listen closely, you can distinguish the door sounds of the R-4s from those on the R-9s on the LL; they are different.
[it was, in a word, "way kewl" ...]
It still is, TMO....(and it's alot cleaner since the 70's)
BMTman
I've done the Newark City (ahem) "subway" ... back before it got that horrible triple stripe and was in the original PCC greens. No offense by the way, I thought it was neat as hell seeing a "Mr Rogers trolley" riding rails in such a unique config. When I grew up in the Bronx, the "Third Avenue Railroad Company" (not to be confused with the elevated) was still running trolleys up Webster Avenue and Riverdale Avenue but PCC's had already given way to more classic trolleys as they were about to go the way of the dodo ... the car shops tended to put out their museum pieces once the handwriting was on the wall so Newark was quite a treat to me.
Damndest thing about them though was the irony of the foot pedals for the motor dewd and that stainless pole that they got to hold onto since well ... nothing much for the hands to do on a trolley when it was moving. I hear they're about to replace those with standard issue "Euro-trolloy" (LR cars) ... another slipping through the fingers of an equivalent to the pre-war subway cars to progress.
I'm really hoping that come the 100th anniversary of the HI-V's and convertibles in 2004 that somehow, some way there will be nostalgia trains run off-peak and as possible "tourist-packs" ... wouldn't it be really neat if LO-V's (original copper color please), Gate cars and R1's could be consisted and intermingled with the regular runs for a while? For those nervous about 'em, "There's another train right behind this one ... uh, yeah." But I'd take a ride into the city to be able to blow a couple of days riding those cars that I used to run.
What'd be really neat would be to restock the Canarsie with the standards (especially the older ones with the shrieky whistle that sounded like that scream in the cheezy horror movies - some of the standards had a whistle that sounded like woman being raped [no offense intended here - the whistles on the standards had a particularly piercing sound which I hated]) ... for now, I have to sit and pour over the same old, same old pix on the regular site here since you can't ride any of those puppies any longer ... I'm just ever so grateful that I was able to work some of them back when Lindsay was mayor and the new card hadn't come on the property yet. Anything that COULD move ... did.
Back when I worked for the "ta" we were grateful that whatever wrecks we were hand it made it to the other end and didn't require cows and calfs to come out to give us a push home. RCI's were usually there only to administer last rites and hand you your layup paperwork. If it moved, it went ... the ta was so much more fun then when TWU didn't CARE if you were a conductor and changed your own fuses in the main box or got down and broke off a pickup shoe, or you were a motorman on relaying duty that got a revenue run out of the deal because the guy you were relieving was stuck downtown and you were filling a two hour gap. Or when being held for a gap WAS something that could last to end of shift. Back then, getting on a train was the next best thing to gambling. Heh.
Hey TMO!
You can still "ride" those LowV's and R-9's up at the Branford Electric Railway Association (at the Sprague Museum) in Branford Connecticut. They are located off Exit 52 on I-95.
We have R-9 #1689, LowV #5466, Gate Car #1227, and (not to forget) R-17 #6688. All of them are in running condition and have been taken down the line at various times by yours truly. I particularly enjoy 1689 and the Gate Car (that wacky elevator-operator type controller threw me for a loop when I first saw it!).
Ya gotta come by some time. I'll show you around! (in warm weather of course :-)
Well, time for me to head out into the Blizzard....looks like Todd Glickman was right after all...
BMTman
If you've got the handles, the church key and the butt-plug, I gots the beer. (and not that steeking St Louis Car Co nonsense, real imported Deutschelander) ... I got R1/9 certs a long time ago and a three-notcher and a 70 pound (90 high side) braking system is like a yawner to me ... if the offer includes throttle and butt plug time, you can color me interested ... When I was REAL young, managed to brake a LoV ONCE on a relay at Gun Hill Rd ... R1/9's I can do in my sleep ...
Funny, as fresh meat on the railroad, I got assigned R4's as a conductor straight off, when I went to motor school, the oldtimers took a liking to me and so I was prepped for R1/9 duty extras at a time when the fresh meat got taught 32's to 38's ... I lucked out in coming in with "the touch" for proper feathering so I spent most of my time with ta on the antiques ...
We're talking rip-roaring ha'd-on though if there's a possibility of some handle-gripping ... been a while for 600 volt stuff that doesn't run on a self-contained power company. :)
In other words, you got AMUE braking down pat early on.
You forgot Fordham and Kingsbridge...they"re between Tremont and Bedford Park on the express. Another R9 man... yes they were great even if the old IRT stuff was always first in my heart a good set of R1-9 was a treasure to run, and had the sounds and feel of the days of glory, before all the cosmetics of today whether NYCT or Amtrak.or whatever else you happen to ride or work.
In addition to the IRT [my hangouts were Broadway and Woodlawn] I hung out at Highbridge on the NY Central. Great, T-motors, R2's, the P2's were just coming in...the old MU's. I caught the tail end of steam on the Put...then the Lima-Hamiltons, Baldwins, and the ubiquitous Alco Rs3. Bill Kennedy, the last passenger engineer on the Put used to have me up in the cab but I never did touch the controls [nor on the IRT].
I've worked for the TA and the freight roads..I agree with you on that angle, too many big road people snub rail transit but in our own way each has their skills. I did meet people on BN and MRL that recognized my transit background favorably, then there were the others; oh well I enjoyed it all.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. We weren't too far apart between Highbridge and Marble Hill, Highbridge had its share of Irish..and Jews. But I'm just a Heinz 57...my age also.
Mea culpa! What's most embarassing is that the D train was my home line too. I *lived* at 204th and Webster, three blocks away from "205th street" (trivia note - the stop is *not* at 205th Street, it's actually 204th and Bainbridge) Second trivia note - outside my house was the northbound platform of the 3rd avenue El - 204th and Webster. They didn't put the old Flushing cars (that vaguely resembled R10's with three rounded windows instead of the R10's "pairs") on the third avenue el until the very last years - instead, it was standard LO-V's and a good number of the IRT 1939 WF cars ... and yes, got handle time there a LOT too ...
If you're near old enough, Tom Fallon was my NY Central buddy - got some real serious handle time on the MU's and the Spragues. NY Central Sprague locomotive number 100 is parked nearby here as part of the Mohawk Valley Preservation Society - needs paint but still runs. Like the Pennsy GG1's, 32 speed controller. It's parked on the Niagara Mohawk Power Company Albany Steam Plant property since there's Metro-North configured third rail and 600 DC there ... I've seen it run since the society uses it to move some D&H coaches they've also acquired.
And I just turned 50 ... DADDY! Heh.
So: lucky you got to see whatever remnant of the old IRT that was left even if the remains of 3rd ave. was nothing like thundering down the IRT mains in Manhattan.I mean the old cars. I didn't care much for the R12/14 at all (the ex-Flushing cars).Good to share " Yesterday's Memories" [Lillian Leach and the Mellows..1955] oh BTW I'm also still a fan of 1950's R&B and rock & roll..but that was gentle stuff. Then, if you're 50 now I guess you would have had a chance to ride the Low-V's on Lex. or 7th Ave. I hope so.
Only when I was a kid ... Wagner's redbirds had started to take over. At the time, I lived in Riverdale and actually saw the "floating off" of the old turnbridge at 225th street (#1/9 though 9 is a line I never saw) and the installation of the "new bridge" (ST -15MPH) in the early 60's that got stuck every summer until they gave up trying to raise it ... but Webster Ave kept the Lo-V's until the last couple of years of its existence and I went out of my way to get to 149th to take those home, especially when it rained or snowed and I didn't wanna walk the three blocks from the D train in it to get home.
But I remember when LoV's did the Broadway local to 242. So what if they were old wrecks? Them puppies had SOUL. For some, the train is a ride home. For others, they were the reason the heart pumps. That's why my life's goal was to be with the ta ... until I actually did it.
3 blocks from the D train. I should have been so lucky ...169 * Ogden [actually Merriam] was about .7 miles from 170/Jerome. Seemed all my friends or dates in my younger days lived at least a half mile or so from a station..usually more.If nothing else at an extra fare the #11 bus could get me within a block of home..but then you'd wait in the rain for a bus!
Indeed the old trains had soul. Whether transit or Amtrak (even the new diesel locos with computer screens) seems the he-man feeling of the trains is gone. Now everything feels so "cologned", OK..too nice, politically correct, or whatever.I like things better the old way!Cheerio, from the land of "Howdy" where hardly anyone ever says that anymore! [Montana]
Hey Man,
Great post (pics and all). Welcome aboard!
Marc
mmmmMoooo! (it's an upstate thang) ... heh. Tanks for the greetz. While I live upstate, I've never forgotten the joy of "dog on tracks" in the excuses it offered for lateness showing up for work. Heh. You just can't get the folks near where I live to figure out how a dog on the tracks in Crooklyn can undermine the value of the new tires on their homes up here. It's a bond issue thang as far as these Joe Bruno republicans up h'yah go.
Kinda hard explaining what I mean by my homies ... that's why I get real here. Man, I needs me a frigging life. And hold the onions. :)
mmmmMoooo! (it's an upstate thang) ... heh. Tanks for the greetz. While I live upstate, I've never forgotten the joy of "dog on tracks" in the excuses it offered for lateness showing up for work. Heh. You just can't get the folks near where I live to figure out how a dog on the tracks in Crooklyn can undermine the value of the new tires on their homes up here. It's a bond issue thang as far as these Joe Bruno republicans up h'yah go.
Kinda hard explaining what I mean by my homies ... that's why I get real here. Man, I needs me a frigging life. And hold d'unyuns. :)
You'll find that 'on-topic' here has a pretty broad definition, depending on who you ask. We've covered everything from the census to Nathan's. As long as it stays civil, it generally runs ok.
Welcome!
-Hank
Welcome aboard to Subtalk.
It's always good to have new people here.
Try not to get too discouraged here with the overall lack of knowledge about the transit system. I'm sure you'll have a great time here.
I predict you will be one of the gang by next Christmas.
Save it. He won't last. Guy's obviously a drifter.
you have a point... he had the dream job and blew it... if he really loved the 9's, he would have thrown his body between the cars, prevented the collision and have earned the admiration of r9 lovers...
... and not notched down the volume on his posts at all.
Nah, that's what RCI's are for. :)
Actually I really am a drifter, but alas, I'm still waiting for supervision to sign my late clear. :)
heypauls' been hitting the giggle water again!!
Selkirk's been with us for years. He's not a newbie.
You gotta stop swiping the WayBak Machine from Mr. Peabody.
Next thing you know, Paul will be in the scrolling text mood again...:)
???? Why are SubTalkers falling into heypaul's trap?
Don't these guys realize this thread his from three years ago???
NO NO NO, Heypaul is dredging up all of this old stuff as practice for his main objective: scooping a train of reefbirds out of the ocean and fixing them up.
Heh. I'm not so sure anymore. Can I apply for asylum? Or should I just drive to the nearest one? :)
Can I apply for asylum? Or should I just drive to the nearest one?
How quickly you forget... you're already a member of one... the Branford Electric Railway Asylum for the Hopelessly Foamy. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought all the beds were full this weekend. :)
Talk about a delayed reaction!!!
Slow orders on the Brighton for Arnines. It was a way of life. :)
Kind of like this, eh?:)
I'll bet you did a scroller there - Netscape don't do it. Whoops. :)
Today's Boston Globe is reporting the tentative schedule for Boston-Portland Amtrak Service. It will not begin until "late spring" due to continuing Big Dig work at North Station, which has two of the ten tracks out-of-service at a time (MBTA commuter trains dominate).
The article says that travel time will be about 2-1/2 hours, with fares around $20 one-way, and $30-35 round-trip. Departures from Boston will be around 9:45am, 12:50pm, 5:30pm, and 11:00pm; from Portland 6:00am, 9:00am, 1:30pm, and 4:30pm seven days a week.
Remember -- there is no through connection to the Northeast Corridor. Passengers coming from points south to South Station will have to transfer to North Station by taxi or subway (requires at least one change - Red to Orange or Red to Green).
Aren't there plans to finally connect South Station to North Station?
IIRC, there are alrewady freight connections from the NEC to the B&M, but they by-pass both stations.
Plans to connect the 2 stations were scuttled years ago. Too costly. The ROW corridor beside/beneath the Dig has been left clear for a future Big/Little Dig. (Little/Big Dig? Either way $$$$$!!)
Another way to get from the Lobster Trains to Acella is the Orange Line from North Station to Back Bay. The disadvantage is no seating or ammenities at Back Bay while you are waiting to go South. It would definately be the best way going north.
Depending on where the existing freight ROW is, I suppose Amtrak could set up a service now, where trains would use Route 128 or Back Bay only(if the freight ROW can serve them, since it does not serve North or South Station)in Boston and then proceed to/from Porland. But from a marketing and revenue vs. expense perspective it probably wouldn't be desirable - not to mention freight lines (is this an active ROW?)hate sharing space w/passenger trains.
The "grand junction" as it is called is a spur off the Framingham/Worcester branch (not served by Route 128). It would require a reverse move from north or Back Bay (or departing South Station), then another reverse move off the Worcester branch, through a rail yard, over grade crossings in the middle of Cambridge & Somerville, finally joining up with the Haverhill branch near Boston Engine Terminal. But the Portland service is expected to go out of North Station and up the Lowell Line so that it could serve the new Woburn Regional Transportation Center (sometimes called [chuckle] MetroNorth!). Using the Grand Junction to get to the Lowell Line introduces two more reverse moves! THIS AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.
The North-South Rail Link is the best answer, but as Rich noted, no money is available. Maybe in 10 or 20 years there will be a groundswell of support... let's hope so!
I've heard quite a bit about the Boston/ Portland rail service through New England Cable News (NECN- a regional all-news channel) and the Maine Turnpike Authority. NECN has said that IF this service ever gets going, some of the stops will include Wells and Old Orchard Beach, ME. Construction started this past October in Wells for an intermodal transportation center. It'll be between an existing rail line and at the foot of Maine Turnpike (I-95)Exit 2 (ME 9/109- Wells/ Sanford). The O.O.B. stop will be downtown at the junction of ME 5's terminus at the world-famous pier. (I have lived in both of these towns by the way!) Considering traffic on the Maine Turnpike is already a pain in the ass (thanks to the widening project), it'll do the towns involved quite a bit of good! :O - Thanx!
Hey Kevi-Kev,
If you lived in Wells and OOB, how come Todd G or I never saw you at Seashore. We would have gladly broken you in as a motorman!
I was thinking the same thing, Dick! Or if he's moved to the NYC area, he can join up at Branford.
And for our new Selkirk friend, an R9-class car awaits you at either Museum.
There is one way to run through NYC - POR service.
Extend a Springfield train over the B&A to Allston, then over the Grand Junction to North Station. Use push pull equipment so the train can leave North Station and go directly to Maine. The noon trip from Northg Station would work with about a 6:00 AM departure from NYC. Going the other way a mid-afternoon departure from Portland would work best with an arrival around midnight in NYC. Add special work at Beacon Park and BET as needed to allow direct running over the GJ.
Sorry, all you residents of Providence and New London.
Hey Kevi-Kev,
If you lived in Wells and OOB, how come Todd G or I never saw you at Seashore. We would have gladly broken you in as a motorman!
Thanks for the reply. I probably didn't see anybody because I lived in Wells from 1974 to 1977 and O.O.B. from September 1985 until June 20, 1987. I've lived in New Britain, CT since then. I still think that this Amtrak service is long overdue and would like to take to O.O.B. and see what's changed. (I haven't been in town since 1996). The bus companies only go towards Portland nowadays. Considering the widening project on the Maine Turnpike and the notorious summer traffic, this would be a smart idea! :O -Later!
No excuse - I go back that far at STM! :)
The grade crossing in Cambridge: Is that the crossing near MIT, which has no crossing gate and where there have been numerous near misses between out of service MBTA engines going < 5 mph and cars?
YOU GOT IT! In fact, my office is about five blocks from that crossing, and as I type this, I hear a train whistle. Most moves are at night, but occasionally there is daytime activity. Since this is the only way south side MBTA trains get to the Boston Engine Terminal, there's a lot of commuter train activity in addition to freights.
Is there some reason crossing gates are not installed? Is MBTA begging for lawsuits?
Beats me! But there are flagmen at all of the grade crossings (there are many in Cambridge). Lights and bells too.
Lights and bells at the Cambridge crossing - yes. But I lived there for two years and never saw a flagman precede a train, only an engineer gesticulating from the cab.
Was that the usual Boston (Middle Finger) Salute?
Ron, that line is owned by CSX, not the T.
Thank you; that is important.
Back Bay isn't exactly plush, but there's seating and some small food shops. I would say it might even be nicer than New York Penn. :-)
It's VERY cold in the winter and VERY hot in the summer. There's no HVAC anywhere. And believe it or not, the rest room is even more scuzzy that Penns! Fortunately there's a very nice shopping mall across the street, where you can kill time and find decent facilities.
Pawtucket-Central Falls station is nicer than Penn, in its current state (gutted for use by a flea market until ten years ago) :).
Who uses it now?
It's abandoned; probably rats, drug dealers, and homeless people use it now. I'm not sure who actually owns it. Such a shame.
I don't remember passenger service at that station when I lived in RI. Is it on the NEC or the P&W?
I like Back Bay too - but no, not better than Penn :)
Isn't Amtrak planning dedicated Thruway bus or van service between the two stations to accommodate Portland line passengers changing trains in Boston? There was a van operation connecting Grand Central and Penn Stations during the last few years before Amtrak moved its last trains out of GCT.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Right you are, Alan. But this service will need to run through the Big Dig construction and/or on the existing Central Artery. Traffic jams can pop up for no apparent reasons along this stretch.
If you hop off at Back Bay, you save 5 min between there and South Station. You are right at the Orange line entrance. At South Station, you will have to walk to where ever they can get that bus in.
The Orange line has delays from time to time, but nothing like the potential traffic jams. Orange, Back Bay to North Station = 15min. Trains run every 4 to 8 mins weekdays. Bus, South Station to North = 5-10 min load 10-25 min run.
At the North Station end, you will have a longer walk if on the Orange. It's about 3 minutes until the new closer entrance is opened.
While I can see them holding a Maine train for a delayed bus, they won't do the same on an Acela.
Happy New Year to all.
Rich (Somewhere on the Blue)
How about if you take the MBTA Red Line from South Station over to Park Street and transfer there to the Green Line and head to North Station/ Fleet Center via the "Lechmere" train? It beats the walk anyway.
Sure, that works fine for many.
Then try it with two screaming kids, four pieces of overstuffed luggage, and grandma who has trouble walking.
Yeah, MA needs to build a commuter rail tunnel between the two...
MBTA got the entire new Orange Line done for only $750 million. That's an admirable achievement. Can they repeat that frugality for a new commuter rail tunnel?
The only problem with this is that The Big Dig still has a LONG way to being completed. In fact, one of the two biggest problem areas for this project is Dewey Square, which is right in front of the original South Station building (where the MBTA Red Line traverses through). Easier said than done, right? I have seen an old bumper sticker or two in this area which reads "North/ South Rail Link." I wonder who placed it there?
The sign was placed by someone who doesn't pay Mass Taxes. The North South rail connection may never get done. The benefits don't match up to the cost for Boston or the Commonwealth (of Mass.) It would be nice for Amtrak or maybe a few commuters who would travel through to jobs in communities outside of the city. It would add a slight flexibility in T commuter rail operations. Add all these things together and it's still not worth the billions it would cost.
I called yesterday and was informed that Transit Transit is on Cablevision Woodbury System only at
MONDAYS AT 3:30 PM
The Woodbury System covers most of Nassau County and parts of Western Suffolk. TT is not on Cablevision of Hauppauge.
Most of us will have to set VCR's since we have to be at work except this coming Monday which is New Year's Day
It's on broadcast channel 25 (WNYE). I don't know how far WNYE goes.
I saw another R-46 signed as "METRO-NORTH RR" on the express tracks at Van Wyck Blvd this morning. The first six cars from the Jamaica end were 6040-6041-6039-6038-6170-6171, and one of the middle cars had its rollsign set to F. It started moving toward Jamaica as my F train was leaving.
Another? When was the first? Let us know if you see one that says "Blackstone Blvd."
Here's the first sighting. And I'll never see one signed Blackstone Blvd; even if extending the F 300 miles were feasible, I'm sure residents of "the Boulevard" would be NIMBYs about it.
RIPTA42HopeTunnel:
That is funny since the third rail shoe on the subway cars is incompatible with the third rail on Metro-North. I wonder where the person was when he stamped MNRR on the car? I guess that he was in Never Never land at the time.
BMTJeff
Well it wasn't on Metro North, it was on the IND express tracks! Someone posted a few weeks ago that they saw the same thing, and it was speculated that it was probably signed that way to shoot a movie, since the average viewer wouldn't know that it's an R-46 and wouldn't be on Metro North. But "METRO-NORTH RR" is one of the destinations that can be displayed on the LCD route signs, and there it was.
RIPTA42HopeTunnel:
It doesn't surprise me that they can set up the electronic destination signs on the R-46s or any cars that have them for that matter to read Metro North R.R. or anything else they care to choose. Maybe the next time #4 Sea Beach Fred visits New York we should tell them to make the signs read "Welcome #4 Sea Beach Fred".
BMTJeff
We have been over this the 46's signes can be programed to say anything. We assumed that it was a movie shoot using the cheaper TA equipment. Only $6,000 to rent a subway train I've heard from an inside source.
As someone (it may have been Train Dude) explained some time ago, the reason METRO NORTH RR as well as LIRR is included on the digital side signs on the R44/46 cars is that, in the event of a service disruption on either of these commuter RRs they would run Subway shuttles to take you to a station where you could get the Commuter line. They would use these signs to identfy a train that would take you to a place where you could get METRO NORTH or LIRR. These indications are included as a contingency. The reason you saw them was either the result of a malfunction or some C/R or T/O being funny, putting them up instead of NOT IN SERVICE.
Peace,
ANDEE
Additionally, I would be willing to bet that the R142s have these indications also, for the same reason.
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought it was the default for when the signs are turned on. Thats what a C/R told me, anyway.
Another distinct possibility.
Peace,
ANDEE
now that the Bi-levels are allowed back on the St Albans Viaduct, does this mean they won't use the other route used by Far Rockaway and Long beach (Locust manor, Laurelton). Also do any Trains leaving LIC still use the other Tracks, the ones that pass thru ridgewood and Richmond hill and so on. If so, can someone tell me which ones still do? I never rode a Train thru there before.
There are still 1 or 2 LIRR trains a day from LIC using the old main line through Ridgewood, etc. All the intervening stops between LIC and Jamaica were shut down a few years ago. Check the LIRR website for scehdules.
There is one train each way each weekday: the 8:11 AM from Jamaica, arriving in LIC at 8:34 AM, and the 4:54 PM from LIC, arriving in Jamaica at 5:16 PM. Both of these trains are Oyster Bay.
Before the non-FL9 DMs made their debut there used to be 4:
Inbound
8:11 AM Oyster Bay
8:15 AM Patchogue (This train also used the Central and stopped at Hicksville & Mineola, 2 barely used routes on one train). Before the stations were closed this was the local.
Outbound
4:54 PM Oyster Bay (Former Local to Fresh Pond, Exp to Jam)
5:22 PM Oyster Bay (Full Local)
I found old schedules last year showing this service in a cabinet under one of the schedule bins in Penn Station (1991 schedules). There were dozens, though most were in bad shape (filthy).
It is my understanding that some of the trains which go to LIC used the old main line. A fairly safe bet would be to look at the schedules to see which LIC trains do not stop at Hunterspoint Avenue.
It appears that the only westbound departs Jamaica at 8:19 AM.
CG
That should have said 8:11 AM.
During problems at Penn or with the East River Tubes they will reroute electrics to Long Island City and the diesels will travel the old Montauk Branch. Not too many MU's can go to LIC since the yard only has one (or 2?) tracks with third rail.
Railpace Hot News reports that the bus containing the Reading Company Technical and Historical Society's HO layout was broken into and a lot of stuff stolen. A list is included in the article as well as the police department phone number with the request that railfans and modelers be on the lookout for people trying to sell this stuff so it can be recovered.
Scroll down on the Railpace "Hot News!" website; it was the second story when I posted it and now it's fifth already.
As I left my southbound 6 R142 train this evening, I walked up the stairs and saw that on the roof of the cars is peculiar set of vents and a large fan. OIt looked like a vent fan found on diesel locos, but surely it is not for engine exhaust. I've seen similar fans mounted on the underside of R62s. Is this the same thing?
-Dan
It is the A/C Fans.
robert
That's the condenser blower for the air conditioner. On all earlier
cars, the AC is a "split system" with the evaporator (that's the
thing that gets cold) and its blower in the ceilings
of the cars and the compressor, condenser (that's the part that
gets hot) underneath, with electrical and freon lines running
through the car floor. On the redbirds, which were not built
with A/C but were retrofitted in the early 80s, those fat stanchions
that appear to support the blower units are in fact conduits
for the freon lines.
On the "new tech" trains, there are two independent, self-contained
HVAC units which are mounted in the ceilings from overhead.
All of the equipment is contained in these packages. There is
nothing under the car. If an HVAC package fails, the entire unit
is lifted out with an overhead hoist and a replacement is inserted.
Hey, I got a real out to left field question - do the R-142 A/C units use traditional compressors, or the much quieter, reliable, and more efficient scroll ones?
That's so far out in left field it's over my fence!
I have no idea. I'm not even sure what a scroll compressor
is. I can tell you that the compressor and blower motors
are 3-phase 208 off-the-shelf motors. No more brushes to change!
Spent a good amount of time on the #6 and #2 Thursday afternoon; caught a downtown 6 R142A at 86th Street, and rode it to Brooklyn Bridge. After 1 stop on the M, I was at chambers waiting for the #2. I caught one R142 downtown, but only staye done stop since it was jam packed. But after waiting 10 more minutes at Park...an uptown R142 came along...the subway series pinstriper!! I rode it to Times Square.
The pinstriper was the only train (of the 3 R142s/R142As that I took) that had the automated announcements working. At least they were louder than before, but I guess most conductors still haven't been trained properly on them. Oh well, we'll see what part 2 brings tomorrow...anyone care to join? -Nick
i caught it today on the #2 line and yestrday it was on the #6. Havent seen it running on the #5 yet, but i guess soon. anyone know how many trains are running on each line?
I think 4 on the 2 and 3 on the 6.
The 2:
6311-6320 (Yankees)
6326-6345 (2 trains in non-consecutive sets)
6411-6420
The 6:
7221-7230
7231-7240
7261-7270
I caught one (7248?) on the 6 this morning and the announcements and strip map weren't working. If these things require operator intervention, they'll never work.
While reading the Post at work, I came across the classifieds and saw a small clipping for the R160 contract. What is this all about? Is the TA looking for a bidder for the 660 car purchase?
Train#1971Mike
(While reading the Post at work, I came across the classifieds and saw a small clipping for the R160 contract. What is this all about? Is the TA looking for a bidder for the 660 car purchase?)
This is what as known as throwing loyal conservative and liberal baiter Rupurt Murdock some public dollars in his time of need. Who is kidding who? There are three or four subway car manufacturers in the world. Reuter could have just faxed them a request for bids. In fact, he probably did.
I was under the impression that municipal law requires public notice of RFPs and contracts put to bid.
-Hank
You are correct, we put them in the City Register as well as Times, Post, News, The Spanish Daily, the Jewish Press and some others. I've seen Purcahse Orders for advertisment for ONE DAY in all the papers come to $10,000 (we have to use a PR firm not deal directly with the papers since they were low bidder for placeing adds in all papers with one notification).
(You are correct, we put them in the City Register as well as Times, Post, News, The Spanish Daily, the Jewish Press and some
others. I've seen Purcahse Orders for advertisment for ONE DAY in all the papers come to $10,000 (we have to use a PR firm not deal directly with the papers since they were low bidder for placeing adds in all papers with one notification).)
Clearly this is one practice that ought to change, and probably will change everywhere in the country but here. RFPs and purchase orders should be posted on the internet. They should also be e-mailed to everyone on an acceptable vendor list. People aren't exactly looking through the classifies in the Post waiting for a chance to build subway cars.
Can someone explin this? I found this ex-PRR parlor car on the rear of NY-bound Metroliner in Newark on Monday. People were eating at fancy tables inside. I got these quick photos in just before a NJT train pulled into the track in front.
-Dan
i'm just guessing... there are a couple of vintage cars owned by individuals who i think rent them out for special occasions... if that's true in this case, it still seems strange that they would tag the car onto a consist that might do a 100+ mph...
did you think you were hallucinating when you saw that, because it does look unreal...
dan... i think i got an answer... i searched on the web for private railroad cars...
car 120
heypaul, thanks for the link to Bennett Levin's PRR 120. Many of us have seen it in Hoboken Terminal.
Bennett Levin was the featured speaker at a West Jersey Chapter (NRHS) meeting some years ago, and spoke of the joys, expense and work involved in owning and maintaining a private car. The fact that he is a mechanical engineer (Penn State) and does much of the work himself helps save some money, but he pointed out that personal wealth is a must for a private car owner.
More recently, Mr. Levin purchased PRR E-8 #5809 (Norfolk Southern #1000, Conrail #4020) from NS and restored it.
As long as a private railcar adheres to FRA and Amtrak standards in regards to air brake performance/hookups, weights etc., you can hook your car up to an Amtrak train, and Amtrak will charge you a fee for hauling you around. I would think you have to make a reservation in advance, fill out paperwork, provide proof of insurance etc. etc.
I can see Amtrak refusing to let you on your own car because you don't have reserved tickets.
I wonder if this guy has ever though of leasing out his car during the holidays. Amtrak could use it as an extra first class car.
This is Bennett Levin's private car, rebuilt in the Pennsy tradition (unfortunately, it's not a restoration, since exact details on what the car originally looked like are lost to history). To say it is splendid would be an understatement. I rode in the car from Philadelphia to DC back in 1989 as an invited guest while it was on a deadhead run; this was my second ride in a private car, the first being back in 1986 when I had the chance to ride from Richmond to Rocky Mount in an ex-Southern official car. (Since that time I've also ridden in an ex-20th Century Limited observation car that I had also ridden while it was in regular service on the Central.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm kind of suprised that AMTRAK ferried this private car on a (priority) METROLINER interval. I'm sure the owner paid extra. Obviously, the car is geared for the higher METROLINER speeds, but it does add to the weight that the engine has to pull, and is another car that can delay the regular passengers if something goes wrong with the car with the METROLINER passengers paying premium fare themselves as it is........On my way back from Orlando on a Florida service train about a year-and-a-half ago, we pulled a blue private car from Jacksonville to Washington D.C.
I've been told that 120 is better maintained than any other PV out there, and also better than what Amtrak does to its own equipment. Of course, the owner can afford it :-) So there's no reason this particular car couldn't bring up the markers on a Metroliner. I doubt that there's any other PV that could, though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One episode of "Great Railway Journeys" (or something like that) entitled "Coast to Coast" had a man travelling from NY to California. For the first part of his trip he rode in a private car that looked similar to that (it was attached to the end of an Amtrak train). The video is old, since it mentioned that Amtrak was 8 years old. Anyone know what I'm talking about? Was it the same one?
They seem to be saying that there is a possibility of a major snowstorm this Saturday, with possibly 10 or more inches of snow.
When it snows alot, the above ground subway lines have to get plowed. How do they clear them, or do they just shut those lines down? How does LIRR clear their tracks? If it's above the 3rd rail there goes electric service, but the diesels could still run I guess.
So will the LIRR run?
I sure hope it aint a big storm, because where I am in Sea Cliff, the north shore always gets at least a few more inches than the rest of
LI. The thought of a foot of snow on the ground and being really stuck in this boring town is gonna drive me crazy. I will do anything to get out (Staying home on Saturday is just sooo depressing!).
Meanwhile I'm getting my heavy duty boots ready, as well as picking up a new pair of gloves and a hat in Flushing tomorrow!
So I'm curious, how many of you have rode subways and commuter trains in a major snowstorm or blizzard, and what was it like?
>So will the LIRR run?
Yeah, but they always clear the oyster Bay line out last :(
I remember a few years back when they had the last big storm, a train on the Port Washington branch Amtraked and that shut things down. I dont' know what happened to the cars, or how they ever got it out of the ditch, was a work train.
>I sure hope it aint a big storm, because where I am in Sea Cliff, the north
>shore always gets at least a few more inches than the rest of LI.
Hehe. And Sea CLIFF sure has tons of easy to navigate streets too :) Of course, that's assuming you're by the cliff side, and not the boirng Glen Cove ave / Glen head side...
> The thought of a foot of snow on the ground and being really stuck in this
> boring town is gonna drive me crazy. I will do anything to get out (Staying
> home on Saturday is just sooo depressing!).
Oh come on :) Sea Cliff ain't dull, except maybe in the winter. You guys get that big fall fair (I remember the year all the bikers showed up), hippie park, um...yeah, you guys have at least some stuff going on.
Ahh, are you a student at nausa (North Shore :) High School? I've heard that place changed a LOT since I was there (about 5 years ago). They still air out the Girl's bathrooms every 3 weeks?
Oh yeah, get yourself a 21speed and pedal your brains out to Mineola in the summer, great watching there still.
And be on the lookout for a big, loud, black with flames on it Harley this spring. I normally pass through Sea Cliff on my way off and around :) Right up Sea Cliff ave.
>Meanwhile I'm getting my heavy duty boots ready, as well as picking up a
>new pair of gloves and a hat in Flushing tomorrow!
Ugh. I'm 22 and my mom STILL insists on bundling me up :/
>So I'm curious, how many of you have rode subways and commuter trains in
> a major snowstorm or blizzard, and what was it like?
Oh, it's fun. Trains are a touch quieter from the snow, it's colder, sparks fly everywhere, and you hope it all works out...
Ahh, are you a student at nausa (North Shore :) High School? I've heard that place changed a LOT since I was there (about 5 years ago). They still air out the Girl's bathrooms every 3 weeks?
I'm not quite sure what that's supposed to mean, but I'll bet it's funny!
Basically, they'd smoke like crazy in the bathrooms. Once the stench started making it's way into the hall, they'd close the bathroom and air it out. They did this as a standard thing before every concert, too. The school had a nice design to it, but was getting old. Late 50's building, all one level. Beautiful auditorium until they "modernized" it. All one level. It was ADA before ADA existed. Naturally compliant.
When I was there, it was falling apart, buckets everywhere durring rain storm were common. I could go on for days about my experiences there. I wasn't as much of a pain as my brother (who, among other things, was the only student there with a mailbox in the main office...), but I took advantage of the system a bit (50 cent cans of coke in the teacher's lounge when all the other kids paid $1 at the cafeteria, etc).
Even before the infamous moving up day episode*, my mom and the administration weren't exeactly friendly with each other. They really hated it when she was right. That happened a lot. The school had gone downhill since my brotherwas there, and it's probbably still sliding. Had a great performing arts dept years ago, but that's long gone. It's a shame, cause when they were good, they were really good (as good or better than the local colleges)
*In a nutshell, I managed to get a letter from my parents excuseing me from this mandatory "tradition" (they went with this for a variety of reasons). So, I followed everything in the letter, and what I was instructed exactly. Well, three days later, the principal stops me in the hall, mildly irrate about my absence (the school had made a big stink about kids cutting that day that year). Two weeks latter, a form letter arrives in the mail. My mom fired back a reply that was so good, I'm pretty sure I still have it saved on my computer at home. It gets better from there on :)
The Sea Cliff area is notorious for poor public facilities. The schools are getting bad, the libraries have an aging collection with no new material, and our fire department is underfunded and cannot afford a new radio system, so I gotta listen to horns and sirens all night.
The schools, libraries, and fire departments are much better on the south shore. You'd think all these rich people could afford better facilities, but then again many of them are rich because they HOARD*
*They spend all their money on themselves, and don't give a hoot about schools (their kids go to private) and have their own libraries, and have a luxury SUV to drive them around, so they could care less about trains and buses.
Wantagh beats Sea Cliff anyday!!!
Wantagh beats Sea Cliff anyday!!!
I was on the N21 bus some time ago (I took a ride, I have a REALLY long lunch) so I got to see Sea Cliff for the first time.
Here are my observations:
It lives up to its name (although the "sea" is really Hempstead Harbor) and it is a very beautiful place. At least along the bus route however, the houses look a little run down, I don't know how it is further away from the route (the bus doesn't go downtown). So for development, I guess Wantagh would be better, but Sea Cliff looks a lot better from a natural perspective.
Glen Cove on the other hand has neither. It doesn't look all that bad, but I don't see where they get off calling themselves a city. Their downtown is like an open mall, especially with the parking garages, and I don't see anything real city like about it. At the same time, I don't see much business being done there either.
Before Thanksgiving, I ended up driving through the area, Oyster Bay's downtown has the same look to it, however it looked a lot busier and more prosperous. I ended up going through Glen Cove again on my way back (and drove through Locust Valley).
Overall, it looks really nice there.
Yeah, but commuting on the Oyster Bay line is a royal PITA, and the other option is fighting traffic to the LIE.
The whole Sea Cliff, Glen Cove, Glen Head, Roslyn area would be a boom town if the commute didn't suck.
Trouble is, ever since the Collation to Save Hempstead Harbor got that incinerator canned, they've been opposed to any and all development or changs to the area. I hear Sea Cliff can't even pave a road without them moaning about it.
I forgot to make comments about Roslyn:
Nice little downtown, however its part of Hempstead Harbor is not as much a thing of natural beauty. It's shallow and swampy, and it's obscured by the ugly Northern Boulevard viaduct.
How right you are!! The roads in Sea Cliff (as well as the parking lots) are deplorable. So are the sidewalks. The Coalition basically runs the village and opposes any devlopment, even re-paving, because they claim that pavement oils will harm the harbor. They don't like alot of street lighting either, walking back from Sea Cliff RR station at night it's PITCH BLACK.
And that snowstorm tomorrow will really make it a mess here. And they do a lousy job plowing.
They should just dump the huge mounds of snow piles into the harbor, but that can't happen because CSHH says that will harm the harbor.
It's gonna be depressing to be stuck in this dive town for one whole day, hopefully they'll dig us out by Sunday.
I did pick up a good blizzard hat and gloves, just in case I do the unthinkable tomorrow and wait for the bus!
A large population doesn't automatically qualify an area to be a city; likewise, some cities in NYS are much smaller than some villages. Glen Cove with a population of roughly 24,000 and Long Beach, roughly 32,000 are the only cities on the Island because they were the only municipalities to petition to become official cities, along with the funding therein.
Hempstead and Freeport are incorporated villages whose populations hover around 40,000, so they look much more like how we stereotype cities (especially with their large minority population, subsidized housing and many storefront social agencies) than villages, which evoke the image of charming old storefronts, a Main Street, gaslight lamp posts and small parks with gazebos. Northport is such a village, as are Florarl Park, Cedarhurst, Malverne, Garden City, Farmingdale, Amityville, Lindenhurst, Babylon, Port Jefferson, Greenport and many others.
Huntington Village fits the bill too by having a large defined business district, although it's not a village at all; it's a hamlet located in the township by the same name. It may have also taken on its 'village identity' to differentiate it from adjacent Huntington Station, which defies North Shore stereotype by actually being a ghetto of sorts; its main drag, New York Avenue, looks quite run down if you've just driven up from the Village.
Oyster Bay, Port Washington, Riverhead, Bethpage, Syosset, Brentwood, Sayville, Manhasset, Bellmore, Wantagh, Bayshore and Smithtown are other hamlets that strongly resemble villages, with business districts radiating from LIRR stations. Conversely, many incorporated villages- Muttontown, Brightwaters, Plandome, Woodsburgh, Russell Gardens, East Hills, Lattingtown, Munsey Park, Manorhaven- don't even have a defined downtown or even identity- addresses are absorbed into a nearby, better-known community with a post office.
From what I've seen, Sea Cliff does have elements of a classic village. The westerly approach through the numbered avenues makes you feel like you're in a coastal New England village, what with the narrow streets and small houses. Roslyn Village seems very overrated, but then many of its bars and clubs- remember My Father's Place?- have closed down over the last decade. The presence of a duck pond still makes it a tourist attraction, witness the 24-hour metered parking lot. We found Northport and the hamlets of Locust Valley and Sayville much nicer for strolling and browsing.
Sea Cliff is unusual in that its LIRR station is not in its downtown; it's actually in the city of Glen Cove. Likewise, the Northport station is in unincorporated East Northport, a hamlet with its own identity and downtown. The accepted centers of Oceanside and the village of Mineola, and the city of Glen Cove are also far removed from their stations, but in Glen Cove's case, it may have been a case of topography. Huntington and Port Jefferson villages are far enough from their stations that the communities surrounding them were given a 'station' surname.
Glen Cove seems like a big interruption in the rich ambience of the north shore, with a large minority population, day laborer corners and a downtown that never seems busy. In contrast, there are some rural areas within city limits that blend perfectly with the adjoining Brookvilles and Lattingtown- big houses, forests, extremely dark roads and roadkill. Glen Cove has always been seen as poor sister to Oyster Bay, which is considered much wealthier- although there is a subsidized apartment complex right next to the Planting Fields! The fact that there is no LI Bus service east of Glen Cove reinforces the 'rich' stereotype.
Of course, much of Long Island is made up of huge unincorporated areas without defined centers, possibly because they lack LIRR stations. East Meadow, Levittown, Commack, Hauppauge, Bohemia, Selden, Centereach, Jericho, and many other areas are largely car-oriented, with their commerce centering on shopping centers.
Believe it or not, long-accepted-as-rich Great Neck, Manhasset, Port Washington and Roslyn actually have some impoverished areas! A popular misconception persists that the area around the Great Neck LIRR station is 'downtown Great Neck village'. In fact, that is the village of Great Neck Plaza, while the actual Great Neck village is a good mile north, in an area that's populated by a combination of African Americans, Orthodox and Sephardic Jews.
One more point of amusing inconsistency: there are several cities in New York State with populations of less than 10,000. Little Falls, Sherrill and Canandagua could fit into a corner of the hamlet of Hicksville (population 50,000).
Of course, much of Long Island is made up of huge unincorporated areas without defined centers, possibly because they lack LIRR stations. East Meadow, Levittown, Commack, Hauppauge, Bohemia, Selden, Centereach, Jericho, and many other areas are largely car-oriented, with their commerce centering on shopping centers.
Indeed, in both Selden and Centerreach, the post offices - which in most places are in the very hearts of downtown - are located in strip malls. You can't get much more "center-less" than that :-)
One interesting aspect of this suburban-sprawl layout in Long Island is that it largely ends once you get past the main area of continuous development. In other words, in the eastern part of Suffolk County, you do have communities with defined town centers. This can be seen most clearly on both the North and South forks, in Riverhead, Westhampton, Hampton Bays, and in the Moriches, among other places. Most of these communities developed around agriculture or maritime commerce many decades ago, back when communities had defined centers, while the suburban-sprawled areas of western and central Suffolk were lightly populated until after the automobile became ubiquitous.
I grew up in Roslyn (went to Wheatley). I was too young to go to My Father's Place, but I do remember it under the viaduct (Billy Joel got his start there). Then there was the Duck Pond...
[Back on topic] My closest LIRR station was Albertson. A very small dirt parking lot between the library and the tracks, but there was always a FREE spot there! Most commuters walked.
Of course, much of Long Island is made up of huge unincorporated areas without defined centers, possibly because they lack LIRR stations. East Meadow, Levittown, Commack, Hauppauge, Bohemia, Selden, Centereach, Jericho, and many other areas are largely car-oriented, with their commerce centering on shopping centers.
Medford, the unincorporated community where I live, is an odd case. It never developed a defined center despite having had an LIRR station for 150 years. A photograph taken from the station around the time of World War I, shown in one of Ron Ziel's books, looks like a view of the forest primeval. Medford's developed considerably in recent years, yet "downtown" is nothing more than a series of strip malls and car dealerships along County Route 112.
I once had to go to Medford to that BIG auto salvage yard for some parts for my 'clunker'.
While there I noticed it has a sizable Hispanic population (not migrant workers). Has that been the case for years or is this ethnic group new to the area?
BMTman
Guess hamlet to me was only a Shakespeare play. I always things went by size..in ascending order...now I add hamlet, then village, town,and city. Although I see few places refer to themselves as towns many are referred to as such by their size.
I was amused when moving to Montana from NYC that my first residence, Forsyth, then pop. about 1900..was legally a CITY; for 1 1/2 years recently I lived in the CITY of New Salem ND, pop about 850.I always called them towns. Livingsto, Laurel, and similar Mont. towns are actually cities...pop. 6000-7000 etc. So I finally learn at my age that size alone does not constitute a city..I guess it's legal criteria. But New Salem, ND...a city? PLEASE.
In California, towns and villages were abolished. Unless you live in a city, or city and county (where the two are the same entity like San Francisco), then the lowest form of government you have is the county.
In California, towns and villages were abolished.
Why not? They'd already abolished common sense. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know what you mean. My beloved adopted town of Livingston, MT [but legally a city] became a suburb of southern California as did much of the surrounding area. After 6 years away I"m back.
Back to Pork's reply I appreciate that bit of knowledge. Find it interesting ...wonder if there are any other examples like NYC...that the CITY comprises of 5 counties within its borders? I'd guess that Chicago is pretty much all or most of Cook County?
A fun example of Western figures: You can fit 5 Rhode Islands into Rosebud County Montana yet the population of this county is less that Hunts Point, Highbridge, etc. I'd guess still 10,000 or less.
Cook County is a lot more than just Chicago - it's quite large. I only lived there briefly so I'll leave it up to the Chicago guys to tell us exactly how big, but it does encompass many of the suburbs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are no townships in the west at all. Townships (called "Towns" in New York, and several other states) are only in the northeast and eastern midwest.
:-) Andrew
Here's one for you ... on LI there is the TOWN of Hempstead and the VILLAGE of Hempstead ... now due to the fact that the County of Nassau is broke but the town isn't .., how about the town taking over the County so we have three Hempsteads just to confuse things !
Mr t__:^)
That's not at all uncommon in New York State.
Villages are parts of towns. Cities aren't. That leads to amusing situations such as the City of Ithaca, which is not part of the Town of Ithaca but is located in the hole of the doughnut-shaped Town.
Probably because the center of town became a village, and eventually became its own city. Then the town would have to move its town hall because it's no longer in the town!
That's exactly what happened.
Actually, the town hall for the Town of Ithaca is in the City of Ithaca. It's not in the Town at all!
Then again, the main Ithaca post office is in the Village of Lansing (which is in the Town of Lansing).
"Glen Cove seems like a big interruption in the rich ambience of the north shore, with a large minority population, day laborer
corners and a downtown that never seems busy. "
As much as I don't like Sea Cliff I'm glad I'm not near downtown Glen Cove. I sometimes do my laundry there and it's horrible. It's packed with migrants and the laundromat isn't that clean, sometimes smells like urine. All the laundries are like that. I decided last week that I'm not going there anymore since I want to clean my clothes in a clean place and not get squashed by people and fight for dryers.
Glen Cove's run down center is because of the lack of mainstream stores downtown. Sweezy's isn't doing well, and there is no supermarket downtown (both lackluster supermarkets are up on Forest where no bus runs).
LIRR service is so infrequent that migrants frequently walk the tracks. Whenever I go to Glen Cove I feel like I'm in Mexico. It smells like urine by the bus stop and I see needles all over the place (once saw one in the laundromat).
Until the mayor's administration can make a real effort to close down these illegal rentals where the migrants live and not allow congregation on city streets the problem will persist. Central Glen Cove is a Barrio and I often nickname the N21 bus the Barrio bus. It always smells like laundry, filfth, and tacos.
"Believe it or not, long-accepted-as-rich Great Neck, Manhasset, Port Washington and Roslyn actually have some
impoverished areas! A popular misconception persists that the area around the Great Neck LIRR station is 'downtown Great
Neck village'. In fact, that is the village of Great Neck Plaza, while the actual Great Neck village is a good mile north, in an area
that's populated by a combination of African Americans, Orthodox and Sephardic Jews. "
Those apartments by the LIRR station on Schenck and Hillpark, as well station Plaza road aren't that cheap. Some of them are "rent stabalized", I know someone that lives there in a stabalized apt. By no means is that an impoverished area. It's busy, and I rarely see migrants hanging around like in Glen Cove. Glen Cove makes Great Neck Plaza look like Beverly Hills.
I'd bet the great commute has something to do with it!
Phil wasn't saying that Great Neck Plaza is improverished, he was saying that there are parts of Great Neck that are improverished.
I've been around Great Neck Plaza and I really don't see any impoverished streets or blocks. It seems the whole of central Glen Cove is impoverished though.
Again, he wasn't talking about Great Neck Plaza. He was talking about certain other parts of Great Neck.
There are some housing projects on Community drive, that is a poor area. Always have lots of LI Bus customers around there.
Great Neck Plaza has alot of LI Bus customers as well, usually migrants doing domestic work in the area, most take the bus not the LIRR.
However most asians I see in great neck take the LIRR to Flushing instead of the bus since I guess they can afford it.
[Whenever I go to Glen Cove I feel like I'm in Mexico.]
Have you been to Mexico? Some of it is actually quite beautiful (as long as you stay away from the larger cities).
You seem to like to make broad assumptions. That's sad.
BMTman
Have you been to Mexico? Some of it is actually quite beautiful (as long as you stay away from the larger cities).
Mexico City is nice. It's the non-tourist cities that have to be avoided.
The Acapulco area is one of the world's greatest resorts.
Mexico City is nice?? I'm curious as to where, because a tourist book I read on Mexico advised tourists (especially females) to avoid Mexico City because it is crowded and dirty.
If there is a subway there, what's it like??
Also Mexico City is by Popo which could mess up the air with ash anytime.
Well, obviously there will be rampant poverty, but that's like any city. If you go to Mexico City, you have to be prepared to see squalor, but that doesn't mean that there aren't nice parts of the city worth seeing. I'm the kind of person who hates "beach vacations," and would visit any city without tanks or rebels in the streets.
Unfortunately, I didn't ride the subway in Mexico City when I was there in 1990. I was also just under 8, so I don't remember as much as I'd like.
I'm the kind of person who hates "beach vacations," and would visit any city without tanks or rebels in the streets.
My thoughts exactly, although a few tanks and rebels in the streets might be interesting in an eyewitness-to-history way.
I'm sorry I knew I should've been clearer, what I meant by "Mexico" was Tijuana and Mexico City. I know there are resort areas which are nice.
Isn't Tijuana the happiest place on Earth?
At least Hershel Krustofsky thinks so.
"It smells like urine by the bus stop..."
And has the town invested in public bathrooms?
The library and Sweezy's are right by the bus stop, which have bathrooms.
Bus drivers often use the facilities in the police station.
As much as I don't like Sea Cliff I'm glad I'm not near downtown Glen Cove. I sometimes do my laundry there and it's horrible. It's packed with migrants and the laundromat isn't that clean, sometimes smells like urine. All the laundries are like that. I decided last week that I'm not going there anymore since I want to clean my clothes in a clean place and not get squashed by people and fight for dryers.
Glen Cove's run down center is because of the lack of mainstream stores downtown. Sweezy's isn't doing well, and there is no supermarket downtown (both lackluster supermarkets are up on Forest where no bus runs).
I'm not sure if the presence of migrants is actually so bad. There are a large number of them in the town next to me (Farmingville). Long-time residents were complaining a lot and even holding protest marches for a while, but now they seem to be accepting the migrants. Most of the migrants are hard-working types who don't seem to bring many social or crime problems.
I've only been in Glen Cove a couple of times, but I have to agree that it looked pretty gloomy. More stores would help. It would also be better if business at Acclaim picked up, as they might then expand in downtown.
By the way, it's interesting that you mention Sweezy's. They recently vacated several storefronts in downtown Patchogue for a large new building just outside downtown. This decision didn't go over too well with other downtown merchants, as it's not surprisingly led to a number of vacancies. And given the fact that Sweezy's sales have been dropping steadily for several years, it seems strange that they'd spend millions on a big new store (the parking lot of which never was particularly busy).
"As much as I don't like Sea Cliff I'm glad I'm not near downtown Glen Cove. I sometimes do my laundry there and it's horrible.
It's packed with migrants and the laundromat isn't that clean, sometimes smells like urine. All the laundries are like that. I
decided last week that I'm not going there anymore since I want to clean my clothes in a clean place and not get squashed by
people and fight for dryers. "
I meant that all the laundries in Glen Cove are horrible. When Mom was alive we went to Carle Place to do laundry, and it's so much quieter and the people have manners and it's clean.
Now that I'm by myself, I cannot always get somebody to take me all the way there and I gotta go to Barrio Laundry of Glen Cove.
Next time I'm gonna wear a mask!
At least they haven't messed up the Bi-levels yet, they still smell new (higher fares keep them away)
I've heard talk of the Village of Hempstead becoming a city. It is by far the most populous village in New York State.
:-) Andrew
Oh! And I grew up in the "hamlet" of Levittown, NY, pop 55,000--larger than the majority of cities in New York State, including Glen Cove and Long Beach. Levittown is in the Town of Hempstead, pop 700,000 (counting the incorporated villages), a larger population than several states!
If you look at a map, you'll notice that most towns on Long Island have huge areas compared with the average town in the rest of the state. I wonder how that came to be. Brookhaven could--and maybe should--probably house nine or ten towns of normal size.
:-) Andrew
I'm in the "old part" of Sea Cliff, sorta right before the cliff.
Well Sea Cliff is kinda dull because there aint many stores around town, no major strip malls,etc. There aint any good chinese places right around Sea Cliff, even though there are a few good ones in Greenvale.
The laundries suck here (they're small and overcrowded with migrants).
There's no Wendy's or McDonald's in walking distance, no supermarket or large store. So basically if you can't get a bus or train out of here, you'll have to walk at least a few miles in the snow to go any place interesting.
I'm 24 and don't attend North Shore (fortunately past those horrible HS years), all though I hear that along with Glen Cove is not very good. This area just don't take too much pride in it's libraries and schools (although Roslyn and Great Neck have good schools and libraries).
Also the train station isn't that close, it's about 3/4 of a mile. I've done the walk in 20 minutes, 15 minutes running.
Especially if you're a teenager, there's no mall or "hang out" place around here. I remember last year a bunch of teenage girls asked me "where do people hang out in this town" and I pretty much said nowhere.
When I lived in Wantagh we had two good strip malls within walking distance, here, nothing.
Either I stay home and pull my hair out or go out into a blizzard and take my chances. All depends on if I can stay home all day, which is so boring (unless of course you're with a special someone).
fortunately past those horrible HS years.
AMEN!
>>>I remember a few years back when they had the last big storm, a train on the Port Washington branch
Amtraked and that shut things down. I dont' know what happened to the cars, or how they ever got it out
of the ditch, was a work train. <<<
That was just outside of Great Neck. Service was not restored for a day or so.
Even though Pataki declared NYC a disaster area in that storm in January 1996, my workplace (a famous direct mail place I don't want to plug here) opened anyway, so I climbed over the snowbanks and subjected myself to the tender mercies of Long Island Bus.
www.forgotten-ny.com
So how was Long Island Bus. Their regular service is bad enough, I don't even want to THINK about in a snowstorm!
Amtraked?
So I'm curious, how many of you have rode subways and commuter trains in a major snowstorm or blizzard, and what was it like?
I had the pleasure of riding the Forest Park branch of the CTA Blue Line during our infamous 23" blizzard a couple years ago, and I rode on the Howard branch of the Red Line during our first major blizzard earlier this month.
Other than a higher incidence of mechanical breakdowns and door problems, the thing I remember most vividly is the incredible arcing between the third rail and the pickup shoes. CTA trains produce a huge amount of arcing even on a normal day, but during a good snowfall it is really incredible. (I have no idea how the arcing action would be on any MTA trains during a snowstorm.) The arcing on CTA trains is so bright I remember seeing it reflecting off of building walls several blocks away, and you can often hear a loud crackling sound along with the arcing. I'd love to get a good time-lapse photo of a CTA train going through a snowstorm at night.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The old Pullman-Standard Red Line cars in Boston do that too - and cause track fires in the tunnels.
When the blizzard of 1978 hit, I lived in Forest Hills. I was dating someone who lived on Ocean Pky in Sheepshead Bay. The outdoor Brighton trains were out, but that didn't stop me from taking the F to Avenue U and hoofing it over to Ocean Pky. (It was running cuz the snow could fall through the el.) The things we do for love.
Both the NYCT and LIRR own a number of maintenance locos that have plows for light-to-moderate snow removal. For the monster that is going to come up the coast tonight and into tomorrow sounds like a job for the jet-snowblowers (there are a few of them around the system).
LIRR has a number of jet-blowers as well.
BMTman
And in the olden days, it would have been R-16s on the Canarsie; BMT standards on the Myrtle/Chambers and Jamaica lines. Batten down the hatches!
I tried to ride MNRR in 1993..
.....it just NEVER came!!
Railpace Hot News has posted Saturday snowstorm plans for Amtrak, NJT Corridor (part of Amtrak's plan), MN, and SEPTA. SEPTA hopes to run all scheduled service; the others have all reduced Saturday service.
I just wanted to hear if you guys actually did the sickout trip today? My bus that would have let me be ontime never showed up so I was 30mins behind schedule and never could have made WTC by 11. If you guys went on the field trip did you guys walk to the end of the line on Grove St? Because I wanted to meet up with you guys and I waited on Franklin Ave. for hours. I really wanted to go on this trip because this is where I grew up and I could have added in my $.02 cents. Please post about the trip and tell how it went. If anyone would like to redo the trip I'll make sure I'm early.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" As I have been called
PS for what its worth I rode the Newark Subway 3x today. LoL.
hey mike... yep... there were 5 of us who met at wtc at about 11 am... i was last to arrive... bmtman, bob anderson, paul polishuk, lou from brooklyn, and me... we left around 11:15... and headed for newark... took a ride out to franklin avenue... boy are those cars nice and warm in the back... then on the way in, we got off at the next stop, and walked in the frigging cold to view the maintenance facility for the new cars...too bad the car barn had a mysterious fire while we were standing there, which should ensure the pcc's running for another 5 years... then back to newark, where one of us got snagged by a farecard checker... after an hour's delay at the newark house of detention, we went on to exchange place... rode north on the new 3 stops... then out on the west side branch... back to liberty science center... out to bayonne...
a pit stop and hot chocolate stop... then back to exchange place... at this point, no one was talking to each other, so we went our separate ways...
i would still like to ride the pcc's in the evening rush when it is dark out, and the cars on a much frequent schedule... i would also like to spend a couple of hours watching the greyhound operation out of the newark terminal...
by the way, mike, don't mention franklin ave to the bmtman...
Did one of you actually try to evade a fare?
i wouldn't say anybody tried to evade the fare... when we got back to the station from our excursion, a car was pulling in and we all had to purchase new tickets... those fare card machines are not the most user friendly, especially when you're hands are shaking uncontrollably... i bought a ticket, and validated it on the wrong end and was also chastised my the fare checker...the other member of our group claimed that he had paid when he entered the pcc car... i think there would have been less of a problem, if he hadn't mentioned that he was a railfan, at which time the fare checker called for reinforcements and a psychiatric consult...
please note: this report is somewhat fanciful, but i can assure you that the basic facts bear no resemblance to reality... in truth, we never left world trade center, and spent most of the day there riding the escalators...
speaking of escalators, at the end of the day, me and bmtman went into borders books, and the escalators were out of order... one of the escalators was blocked off, and on the other one people were walking up and down it in single file at the same time... i had never seen that before, and spent about two hours watching this unusual display of cooperative behavior...
uh.....have i answered your question?
LOL. Did you guys go or not because between validating the wrong end Borders having single file lines and be chastised, I was lost in the mix. But you do know that those tickets are good for 45 mins after they are validated, did you guys throw out your tickets?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" As they call me
we went and with the exception of torching the car barn... pretty much everything as i described did happen... i am surprised that none of the other intrepid travellers have posted about it... perhaps they wanted to avoid the embarassment of having been seen in public with me...
so i take it you like the pcc's...
[i am surprised that none of the other intrepid travellers have posted about it]
I didn't want to embarrass BMT Man - I figured he went through enough embarrassment with the tongue-lashing he received from the NJT policewoman :-)
Actually, she confessed that she really stopped me because she wanted my phone number....I think I also have a bridge I can sell to you if you're interested...
If you're looking to ask transit professionals out on a date, the LIRR MUs to Huntington consistently have the most attractive conductors - and they won't take you to jail.
Ah, but you didn't say anything about handcuffs.:-)
No. Despite heypaul's "twisted tales" I did not TRY to avoid paying the fare.
But as Paul pointed out a PCC was pulling into the station and there was barely time to fiddle with the machines in the friggin' cold. Since we were not over the time limit by much I threw caution to the wind and hoped there wouldn't be a problem, since the train was ready to pull out and everyone else was on board. At no time did I deliberately attempt to avoid paying the fare.
BMTman
yea, Sure. Glad to see they let you out
Peace,
ANDEE
If that is the way you see it I will stick to your story >G<.
Say, Paul, did you have your tape recorder handy? Just curious; your Newark PCC tape sounds excellent.
steve... no i did not have the tape recorder with me... i would have liked to record the heat that was coming out of the back seat on that pcc, and played it back on our walk over to the car barns...
i really like riding in those cars... they still have quite a bit of guts in them after all the years of excellent maintenance... i enjoy seeing the streamline shape of car going by in the opposite direction... and then to be riding in what is probably one of the oldest fleet of cars in the east is a delight... all they need is some air compressor sounds and air brake sounds to be perfect for me...
i may be out there again later this afternoon to do some more riding and photographing with another space cadet from new jersey...
You can always play your R-9 tape with the compressor sounds...
Does anyone have photos of BMTman getting his tounge lashed? How many lashes did he receive? Why his tounge and not his butt? Did anybody rub any salve on his tounge?
avid
The BMTman does have a photo of me ALMOST being a bad railfan. The next day, Friday before New Year's, we were at NYCHRR, one of the engines was running, almost out of the barn & I was almost inside. I was surprised how many engines they had there, plus the two on the fence & the two hacks. Later in the day they used a loaned one to pull a long string of cars down the street. We chased it until it entered NY & Atlantic's ROW.
Mr t__:^)
Did he really try to evade the fare? One thing this Jerzee Boy knows is that "WHENEVER YOU DON'T PAY YOUR FARE YOU ARE CAUGHT" sorry BMTMan but I laugh when people try to talk there way out of it, but the Fare Inspector doesn't even hear it. How much is that ticket? $100? Fare evasion doesn't pay, sorry your my fellow subtalker but its the truth.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" As I've been called on many occasions
It was like one of those speeding tickets you get during the holiday season: the cop pulls you over and gives you a warning instead of a ticket.
That was what happenned essentially.
Now that I am embarrassed beyond all hope, may I now slit my wrists?
BMTman
Please, be my guest.
PEace,
ANDEE
Don't be embarrassed. With the help of heypaul, you were able to walk with a warning and not a fine. But then, Lou from Brooklyn has pictures of you getting " Busted ".
I tried to take two pictures from the top of the esculator of BMTMan giving his speal and HeyPaul begging forgivness. I hope they come out. Roll isn't finished, I hope to do so this new year and get them done. Someone has to talk me through on how to post it to subtalk though hehe...
I think I heard BMTMan say to heypaul: Well, this is another fine mess you've gotten me into!! :)
Yes, that was the dialogue you heard.
Then I gave heypaul an eye-poke and slapped him in his head. He retaliated by twisting my nose.
BMTman
Were the accompanying sound effects present? Which one of you said, "Wooooo-woooooo-woooooo"?:-)
niagra falls......
Ah, Paul, how true.
But what Lou's photos do not reveal was how during my "interrogation" heypaul unzipped his coat, reached down into his pants and said to the Fare Control Agent, "Excuse me while I whip this out". He pulls out a rolled up copy of a newspaper, unrolls it and presents it to the agent, while he says, "see that's me in that picture". It turned out to be one of the last remaining copies of the coveted New York Times cover piece on heypaul inside his R-9 cab. (He was doing a vain attempt to butter up and impress the Agent so that she might not give me a ticket).
Unfortunately, the agent started to turn green as she looked at the paper (she was black, so this took some doing) and mentioned in no uncertain terms that if we did not promise to leave the premises at once (and never return) she would issue me a $500 fine for unsettling her nerves and making her physically sick.
I stand behind my statement (a couple miles behind it, but still I'm there),
BMTman
LOL!!!
Bravo!!! Forget the 35mm camera, I'll bring the video camera on the next trip.
Just want to thank the four other Subtalkers that showed up for our Sickout. It was great riding those PCC's once more even though they look strange with Pants.
Too bad I had to duck out after our visit to Newport on the HBLR, single track operation BTW.
Happy New Year to you all,
lou said:
"It was great riding those PCC's once more even though they look strange with Pants."
lou... those cars would look a lot stranger with dresses...
Rim shot!
Well the new cars will be wearing skirts!!
Mini skirts, perhaps?:-)
Wrong! They will go bottomless :-)
The skirted cars are on the HBLR!! How soon we forget...
BMTman
Newark Subway will run the same cars WITH skirts, I've got pix of them at the Maintenance yard when they were stored outside. Only ONE didn't have its skirt on.
Thanks for the taking the time to showing us around. Looking forward to those pictures of BMTman and Heypaul.
Yes, I enjoyed the trip. Particularly when I was discussing 'Fare Revenue Collection Theory & Practice 101' with the Newark PCC Fare Control Agent. It was most engrossing.
BMTman
Arrived shortly after 10:35PM in the vicinity of Jackson Av tonight, heading off to the East with regular TA Locomotives, no SBK engines to be found. 2nd Day in a Row!!! Shall we try for day 3?
I think that there was a 10 car train being pulled by CP and 6391-95 stayed at Fresh Pond overnight, Wednsday, while 6406-10 were brought into the system last night. CP sticks to that Monday, Wednsday, Friday schedule.
-Stef
Hmm.. I didn't see any R142's in today's delivery. Hopefully I'll catch next weeks deliveries. I've been really busy this week and haven't spent much time at home.
Shawn.
I saw 7319 on a flatbeed on Bronxwood Avenue and 219 Street at 10:45 PM.
After the Blizzard of January 6-7, 1996, Metro North Riders went through commuter Hell for a week, because most of the trains could not get electricity from the shoe. Are we looking at a repeat, or did they fix that problem in 1996 well enough where we should not have to worry? -Nick
It's the one time I'm glad to be near a diesel line, since they usually fare better in heavy snow than the electrics.
II'd like to know if Washington's Metrorail hasits act together - one third of all the cars went out of service during the last big blizzard due to electrical faults. I don't remember MTA ever being that crippled by snow (or am I wrong?).
I don't remember MTA ever being that crippled by snow (or am I wrong?).
Metro-North got crippled in 1996 with their snowshoes not connecting to the third rail...thats all the crippling I know of. -Nick
The problem with Metro-North is they tried to keep operating during the snow and damaged their equipment.
The LIRR was grounded during the snow and saved their equipment.
The LIRR was grounded during the snow...
After they derailed at Great Neck.
In the 1996 blizzard, West End (B/M) open cut and embankments got very bad. The Sea Beach (N) was in even worse shape, there was a G.O. for Ns to use the West End between Coney and 36th Street.
I remember that ice formed on the 3rd rails, because half of the R40 consist went into emergency lighting. Just barely made it up the stiff grade from the open cut-embankment to the el.
Nick:
Remember that when he had the blizzard that occurred on January 7 and 8, 1996 that many parts of the New York metropolitan area had received 2 feet of snow and that was on top of snow that had previously fallen. Metro North had a problem because that snow had piled up so high that it was up to the level of the third rail which essentially cripped the electric cars because the third rail shoes on the cars could not make contact with the third rail. This time they will be dealing with about a foot of snow and with very little snow that has already fallen I think that there will be much less of a problem because there won't be enough snow so that it can pile up as high as the third rail. The drifting that can be expected might cause some problems. I think that Metro-North learned their lesson with the Blizzard of 1996 and they'll be better prepared for this upcoming snowstorm. We'll see if their plan actually works. If it does I wouldn't be surprised that the trains keep running through the storm.
BMTJeff
You need less than a foot of snow to reach the bottom of the third rail. Snow is never a problem for the electrical pickup, ice is. With the underrunning rail on MNCR, this is less of a problem. The real problem caused by snow is that it gets sucked into traction motor vents, melts, and shorts the motors.
-Hank
Hold on there Hank...
One storm in 1996 brought LIRR to it's knees but MNRR ran then the next Stopped MNRR cold but LIRR ran. SO it is tied IMHO what is better under-running or over-running shoes. (Not counting Shoebeam fires on the DM's).
Provided we get the big snow on Saturday, which I'm still skeptical about, what subways, LIRR and Mtero North lines present the best snow scenes? If it happens, I'll be out in it all day, I'm a big snow freak. Frustrating in NYC.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well, that storm has just left 6" to 9" of snow in Minnesota, and it's now heading for Chicago and should be moving into the East over the weekend. Plenty of white-out conditions, with 20-30 mph winds tossing the snow about even after the snow stopped falling.
We'll see . . .
The Brighton would be AWESOME in snow, esp. between Sheepshead Bay and Avenue "H". Unfortulately, the Cut may prove to be a snow collector, and this line is likely to be closed if snow is that intense.
wayne
Metro-North bet. White Plains and the North Bronx is pretty good, as is pretty much any LIRR line east of Hicksville or Massapequa. The Lower Montauk branch of the LIRR is good through Forest Park and over by Newtown Creek (snow on abandoned rails).
The Rockaway line looks good as well, though all the angry people getting on at Howard Beach due to cancelled flights would kill the spirit.
If you're up for some NJTransit I suggest the Main Line to Kingsland or the Bergen County Line to Rutherford, if you want to do both but not go all the way up to Ridgewood to do it you can take the 76 bus between the two stations.
Is there some special procedure for subway drivers when their train leave the tunnel to go elevated during blizzard like conditions? Cause the signals might be very hard to see increasing the chances for an accident and possible derailment. I dont know how they the subway (the elevates structures)get away with not getting crippled during a blizzard but they do a good job.
Christopher Rivera
With the older steel elevated structures like New York's and Chicago's, the snow usually just falls right through the steel structure and onto the street below. Snow becomes more of a problem on structures like concrete viaducts, embankments and expressway medians where the snow has nowhere to go. Expressway medians also have the added problem of snow being plowed off the highway shoulder and onto the transit ROW.
As for poor visibility impacting signalling, I'd assume that cab signalling would make this a non-factor even though visibility may still affect other safety issues like obstructions or people on the tracks ahead.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I know that snow buildup is worst in an "open cut" like the Sea Beach and parts of the Brighton. I remember that in the 1996 storm, the N was down the longest since it is all open cut. On the Brighton, they cleared the snow from the local tracks by dumping it on the express tracks, andhad both the D and Q running local for about a week or two. On the F, they had osme problems on the Smith-9th viaduct, and were therefore running in two sections: one in Queens and Manhattan to some southern terminal (I can't recall what it was; it may have been Second Ave.), and one from Fourth Ave. to Coney Island. I remember that the R was jammed with people trying to make the connection with the F; it took me about 2 1/2 hours to get home that night, rather than my usual hour or so.
subfan
Remember the signal governs from the point it is on the track, not when you see it. SO even if you can't see the signal until your right on top of it, it is no big deal. Just like a car you will have to go SLOW at way reduced speed.
I do know that the TA suspends service for heavy smoke even on elevated lines they will stop service when T/O's can't see the next signal ahead so they might stop service in a blizzard condition but doing that allows the buildup of snow on the rails so it is a double shot in the foot if they do.
During limited visibility conditions, maximum speed is 15 mph. A T/O also must be able to stop the train within 1/2 his range of vision in case of any blockage on the roadbed.
My brother and Mother were at Delancey street waiting for a uptown F. It never showed. But instead a Uptown A showed up! I assume he was switched over at Jay street and sent up the F! I wish I had gone!. I hear it switched back on the A at W4 washington square. Oh well. They then got off at Penn and caught the 8:06 to Far Rockaway. They got off at Rosedale. by the way this was around 7pm last night. were the G.O's in effect yet?
Any ideas what happened?
There was probably some major delay on the F resulting in A trains being rerouted to cover that route. That's the beauty of the IND, all that built-in flexibility. There's one catch: A trains rerouted over the F line have to stay on the local track after switching over at W. 4th St. until they get to 59th St. There are no crossovers between the northbound local and express tracks between Canal St. and 59th St.
I believe there was a fire, and all Brooklyn bound A and C trains were going VIA the F line till Jay St. Then continuing regular service. And then vise-versa. There was definitly a GO because on those free internet access computers in WTC PATH and PABT it said it, "All Brooklyn bound A and C trains will go via F line until Jay St."
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" As I've been called
There was an incident at 14th Street-8 Ave where police shot someone was menacing passengers on the platform,not sure if that was the same incident you are referring to.
wayne
So that was the IND with the 14th street incident. I think the news had it as the 7th ave IRT line.
It couldn't be the same thing because the A and C were running normal service to W4 meaning that they did go to 14th/8th, the GO was between W4 and Jay St.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" People have referred to me as
i couldn't resist adding this new phrase to our vocabulary... wrong railfanning describes the situation of going out railfanning hoping to have a good time, but due to being with the wrong railfans you end up being a public spectacle in newark penn station...
of course, i am sure everyone who has been in my presence on railfan trips has the same experience with being around me...
I concur...
Well that's a very hard one to know how answer ... can't think of anything funny or serious to say, so a Gilda Radner would say ... never mind.
Mr t__:^)
Let's see:
The R142s started running on a test basis.
The HBLR opened in two segments to less than critical acclaim by residents in its path and underwhelming ridership.
There was one major equipment accident, the derailment of a 'B' train on a curve near DeKalb Avenue. No fatalities, numerous injuries.
There was the usual quota of jumping suicides.
There was one major fatal accident in which a young boy fell through the connecting door of a Slant which opened by itself on a curve, on a 'Q' train, also near DeKalb.
There was at least one homicide, of Louis Nixon (or Nixon Louis, depending on what paper you reazd) robbed on a '2' train in the middle of the night. Because the victim was not a young Caucasian female who recently moved to New York from the heartland (see Kendra Webdale, Amy Watkins, Nicole Barrett), there was relatively little publicity and no cries of outrage from the media, mayor or commissioner. Despite this, there were arrests made quickly.
The first official projections of service changes wrought by the imminent opening of the 41st Avenue connector were put forth.
Articulated buses made their debuts on three crosstown lines in Manhattan.
Subway series.
No major systemwide disruptions due to snow, floods, heat, blackout or any other acts of God.
The LIRR diesel fleet became new double deckers.
The Redbirds live yet another year, including numerous R-26s on the '5' with the original square-paned 'school bus' windows.
Likewise, the Newark PCCs live yet another year despite continued reports of imminent retirement.
ACELA service debuts.
Fourth consecutive year with no fare increase. Is this some kind of record?
No major change of brand of rolling stock of any lines.
No major permanent service changes (Swap of '2' local with '5' express service on lower White Plains el narrowly averted), but loads of prolonged GMs. Chief among them suspension of 'C' and extension of 'E' to Brooklyn for several weeks in February due to switch replacement between Canal and WTC terminal.
I finally made all the way to Waterbury by sheer train.
Franco is still dead.
And, for the hard of hearing, GENERAL FRANCO IS STILL DEAD.
I don't get it. Where does the Generalisimo come in?
It was a running joke on Saturday Night Live during the 70's. Each week, Chevy Chase would report that the Generalisimo was still dead. At the end of each update, as a "public service", the top story of the week would be repeated for the hard of hearing. This entailed Chevy Chase repeating that Franco was still dead, along with Garret Morris (shown in an inset box) repeating Chase's words verbatim while shouting. Very un-P.C. Also very funny. But I suspect you had to see it to appreciate it.
This would have been in the 1975-76, which means that Franco dying was still news.
And it was worth shouting about. I lived in Spain for a year when El Caudillo was still in power... the streets were safe and the trains ran on time, but not much else good could be said about it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No major systemwide disruptions due to snow, floods, heat, blackout or any other acts of God.
Yet.
In addition, there's been major progress on Airtrain construction.
Some great subtalk field trips, one to Main too.
Yes, we realy started something ... seeing the system (or other syatems) with a bunch of friends ... just for FUN.
I'm looking forward to some more realy GREAT trips next year !
Mr t__:^)
I too am looking foward to more trips ( when it warms up ).
But best of all is meeting the Subtalker on the trips we make. It was a great pleasure meeting everyone on those trips who have the same interest as I do. And Bradford also.
Happy New Year to all,
Paul
And someone fill me in when these things take place. It's 75-25 I will retiring in June and would relish the thought of railfanning with some of my buddies on this site.
I'm looking forward to some more realy GREAT trips next year!
And I'll be looking forward to hosting a SUBTALK CHICAGO FIELD TRIP this summer!!
Other highlights of 2000:
The earth did not crash into the sun on January 1st
Automated announcements begin on the CTA
New low-floor Nova busses delivered to CTA
Breda Type-8's begin revenue service in Boston
David Cole moves to Boston
David Cole has a kick-ass time in his first SubTalk field trip, including learning how to operate the trolleys at Seashore!
David Cole moves back to Chicago
Breda Type-8's removed from revenue service in Boston
Did I leave anything out? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The fare remained at 15 cents for almost 13 years, from 1953 to 1966. Never mind the system was gutted in an effort to preserve it.
You're right: I was able to say "Hello, Redbirds" on more than one occasion in October.
Denver's new Southwest Corridor opened on time and under budget on July 14. It has been an overwhelming success so far.
[The fare remained 15 cents for 13 years (53 to 66)]
Now this could start a whole new thread ... i.e. what did the politations do to the system by holding the fare at 15 cents ?
Mr t__:^)
Thirteen years wasn't long!
Think how many years it was only a nickel!
Most of us know what deferred mainetenance did to the car equipment by the mid 60's as a result of the 15 cent fare. If not in fact by hearing/reading etc. By the late 60's we had plenty of B/O R27 and those of a similar period..like the IRT was a mess except for Flushing.
Of course the 5 cent fare left the private managements poor by the mid 20's I'd guess. I doubt if there's any way the IND ever even broke even from day one. Ink-identally the suburban lines got their first increase that I know of in the early 50's and that was the first since 1918. Regulation left some pretty worn out cars and properties both in and out of the city yet the old relics still ran.
Deferred maintenance. They sacrificed the integrity of the system to avoid the messy political implications of a fare increase. It was the primary factor for the collapse of the system in the 1970's.
Of course, the Triplexes would have laughed in the face of deferred maintenance. They were designed and built so well that they hardly needed any maintenance at all and would no doubt have been rolling merrily along while the rest of the fleet was dropping like flies.
Guess that has something to do with the fact that 3 sets still exist.
I enjoyed my recent ride on two of them & thanks to Tony we had a real nice ride down to CI.
Mr t__:^)
I'm still waiting for my first ride on them. Someday, hopefully...
They & the Lo-Vs are in pritty good shape. Hopfully they'll add the Standards soon. Think the last time the Standards were out was in the mid-80s, I missed that, but did ride them in revenue service before they were pulled.
Mr t__:^)
We're one year closer to the Second Ave. Subway being built. OOPS, I forgot - infinity minus one is still infinity!!
>>>There was one major equipment accident, the derailment of a 'B' train on a curve near DeKalb Avenue. No fatalities, numerous injuries.<<<
What about the accident on the 4 line?
Peace,
ANDEE
Especially since it happened during the Subway Series.
Also, remember the publicist that fainted and fell between the cars of the 5 train. What about the story of track workers that nearly got killed by a speeding 4 train while wrongrailing in the Joralemon tubes. Dont forget about Fridays events as well.....
Train#1975Mike
Articulated buses made their debuts on three crosstown lines in Manhattan.
M79, M86, and ...?
Fourth consecutive year with no fare increase. Is this some kind of record?
No, the five-cent fare still holds that title and will continue to hold it for a long time.
M79, M86, and ...?
M23
That's a record which will probably never be broken.
How many of you own an automobile? If so, do you feel it is a necessary evil where you live? Would you not drive if adequate transit were available? If not, do you wish you had a car on some occasions?
I don't drive, I either walk to work or take a bus when late or bad weather, and I ocassionally need a car to go to big-box retailers in the suburbs such as Home Depot or Ikea, but I can usually get a ride with friends for such things.
>How many of you own an automobile?
Heh, not me, I've got a Harley instead :)
I'll eventualy give in and get a car. Probbably a reliable used one, but I also want an*old* VW bug to do s a resto project. want a 2nd Harley first though, probbably a Softail Custom*, and wedge an S&S 96" motor in it, and have it for long distances
>If so, do you feel it is a necessary evil where you live?
Necessary? Well, kinda sorta. Evil? Hell yeah >:)
> Would you not drive if adequate transit were available?
Well, the mass transit wins hands down on lousey days. But once it's nice out, the bike beats just about everything else. IMHO, people would be a heck of a lot less stressed out durring the commuter if we all had bikes...
> If not, do you wish you had a car on some occasions?
Yeah, whenever I need to carry something that's not backpack sized (No saddle bags on this one, it's really more a street rod / town hopper than a tourer)
>I don't drive, I either walk to work or take a bus when late or bad weather,
> and I ocassionally need a car to go to big-box retailers in the suburbs such
> as Home Depot or Ikea, but I can usually get a ride with friends for such
> things.
Mom's taxi and moveing company is always ready to help out ;)
But my parents tend to avoid driving also - my dad combines trips or walks, my mom combines trips too. And when they go to fetch me from Port Washington, 9 out of 10 times, it's the Saturn, not the sation wagon. My mom would rather take the train, but there's no useable morning train on the OB line :(
*I'd MUCH rather have a springer, but everyone says they handle a bit funny, esp at high speeds, which is where I tend to be on the highway. Absolutely beautiful bike though, esp if you throw a higher set of bars on them and keep 'em clean and simple...
(How many of you own an automobile?)
Yes, had one car since 1991.
(If so, do you feel it is a necessary evil where you live? Would you not drive if adequate transit were available?)
The car is necessary for out of town trips to visit friends and family, and for excursions to parts of Brooklyn not easily reached by transit, especially during scant off-peak schedules. We drive less than 7,000 miles per year.
(If not, do you wish you had a car on some occasions?)
Some trips require a car, especially for a family with children. We'd need one to visit the in-laws in the Catskills in any case. The cost and availability of rental cars is a big issue. It it were easier and cheaper to rent when necessary, we could ditch the car. And if we didn't have the car, trips that now we now take using the car would be made on foot on by transit.
Take the 15 minute walk to church. With the car, we often get it together to leave late, and end up driving. Without the car, we'd be sure an leave on time, and would walk. We'd also use car service more for trips within Brooklyn.
I actually did a spreadsheet comparing the cost of increased transit and car service usage, and car rental, with car ownership. Car ownership won, but would have lost if we didn't have kids. Since parking is getting more and more difficult, this car -- if it lasts another decade -- may be our last.
(How many of you own an automobile?)
Yes, had one car since 1991.
(If so, do you feel it is a necessary evil where you live? Would you not drive if adequate transit were available?)
The car is necessary for out of town trips to visit friends and family, and for excursions to parts of Brooklyn not easily reached by transit, especially during scant off-peak schedules. We drive less than 7,000 miles per year.
(If not, do you wish you had a car on some occasions?)
Some trips require a car, especially for a family with children. We'd need one to visit the in-laws in the Catskills in any case. The cost and availability of rental cars is a big issue. It it were easier and cheaper to rent when necessary, we could ditch the car. And if we didn't have the car, trips that now we now take using the car would be made on foot on by transit.
Take the 15 minute walk to church. With the car, we often get it together to leave late, and end up driving. Without the car, we'd be sure an leave on time, and would walk. We'd also use car service more for trips within Brooklyn.
I actually did a spreadsheet comparing the cost of increased transit and car service usage, and car rental, with car ownership. Car ownership won, but would have lost if we didn't have kids. Since parking is getting more and more difficult, this car -- if it lasts another decade -- may be our last.
(How many of you own an automobile?)
Yes, had one car since 1991.
(If so, do you feel it is a necessary evil where you live? Would you not drive if adequate transit were available?)
The car is necessary for out of town trips to visit friends and family, and for excursions to parts of Brooklyn not easily reached by transit, especially during scant off-peak schedules. We drive less than 7,000 miles per year.
(If not, do you wish you had a car on some occasions?)
Some trips require a car, especially for a family with children. We'd need one to visit the in-laws in the Catskills in any case. The cost and availability of rental cars is a big issue. It it were easier and cheaper to rent when necessary, we could ditch the car. And if we didn't have the car, trips that now we now take using the car would be made on foot on by transit.
Take the 15 minute walk to church. With the car, we often get it together to leave late, and end up driving. Without the car, we'd be sure an leave on time, and would walk. We'd also use car service more for trips within Brooklyn.
I actually did a spreadsheet comparing the cost of increased transit and car service usage, and car rental, with car ownership. Car ownership won, but would have lost if we didn't have kids. Since parking is getting more and more difficult, this car -- if it lasts another decade -- may be our last.
How many of you own an automobile?
I've got two - a 2000 Isuzu Rodeo and a 1995 Dodge Neon.
If so, do you feel it is a necessary evil where you live?
Absolutely.
Would you not drive if adequate transit were available?
I suppose, but it's sort of an irrelevant question because I live in an area (central Suffolk) where everything's too spread out for transit to be more than marginally useful. I do take the LIRR to work in Manhattan, so in that sense I'm doing my part to support transit.
If I worked in Manhattan, I'd still take the x-bus. But it's far more conveinient to drive to work in Queens, especially when I may not leave work until 9pm.
-Hank
Great. But I think your support of transit pays you back with peace of mind. I can remember running over the Willy B in rush hour and seeing the traffic jams on the BQE which means on to the LIE; wondered that NO train could be that bad that people would DRIVE in a mess like that every day. Not to mention coming thru Nassau on a typical weekend rush was a drag too.
Before this year, when I lived in Manhattan, I did not have a car. Whenever I needed a car (usually one weekend every two months or so) I rented one. Much cheaper than owning/insuring/garaging.
This year I moved to western Nassau -- suburban, but more densely crowded than the sprawl suburbs that are developing today. We have one car for the three of us (me, wife, baby). With the baby (and a wife who doesn't share a passion for trains and busses), a car is a necessity. If I lived alone, I would probably still have a car as a convenience -- especially since now the insurance is cheaper and the garaging is free -- though I could live without one.
Rule #1-Cars are not evil.
-Hank
Driving isn't evil, but having to drive is.
They are evil! Didn't you see the movie about the possessive Chrysler, "Christina?" The driverless car who ran people over? And what about Wile E. Coyote? A subway train never ran him over! (maybe a freight train)
When did a subway train ever purposefully kill anybody?
:0) <---Sign of a silly post.
"Cars don't kill people, people kill people" -AAA slogan :)
Didn't you see the movie about the possessive Chrysler, "Christina?"
Just to set the record straight, it was Christine and it was a Plymouth. One of Stephen King's novels made into a movie, IIRC (I haven't seen it or read it).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks. I knew I'd probably gotten the details wrong.
I might call a subway train Samantha, but never Christine.
A '57 Fury, I believe.
As for my answer to the poll, I have a 1969 Ford Thunderbird (429ci V-8, 12 mpg), a 1984 Chrysler New Yorker (156ci 4, 23 mpg), and a 1993 Dodge Grand Caravan (198ci V-6, 18 mpg). Only one comes to New York at a time, usually (appropriately enough) the New Yorker and never the Thunderbird; the others stay at my father's in RI. In Rhode Island, it's a necessity, as the RIPTA system is neiter extensive nor frequent, and all but useless if you aren't going to downtown Providence. In Queens, I wouldn't say a car is necessary, but it's a major convenience for going out late at night, shopping, or transporting anything. It makes traveling from NY to RI much easier, too, as it's a three hour drive, as opposed to an hour to get to Port Authority and four and half hours on the bus, and I can stop where and when I want to.
Ours are all FoMoCo products - a '92 Thunderchicken (at Duke with our older son), a '93 Sable (at Georgetown Law with our younger daughter), a '94 Mustang convertible (my wife's toy, usually seen as a blur on I-95/I-85 somewhere between New Jersey and North Carolina), and a '96 Windstar (mine, usually in New Jersey). All have the 3.8 litre V-6 and automatic transmission; the Mustang gets the best gas mileage (25 city, 32 highway since the motor was rebuilt earlier this year) with the Sable close behind at 23/28; the Windstar gets the worst (17 city, 24 highway), with the 'Bird at 18/26. The Windstar has the best range, however - with a nominal 25 gallon tank and ideal conditions (across Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana running a steady 70+ mph) it can go over 700 miles (fuel mileage on that run in December of '99 ran over 28 mpg - not typical, unfortunately, but we filled the tank at the NJ/Pennsylvania border and were nearly at the Chicago limits before buying gas again).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess a transit buff is someone who drives when it makes sense, and uses transit when it makes sense. A transit nut is someone who won't drive because it's evil, although such people tend to use bikes instead of subways. An auto nut is someone who will drive no matter what, even to Manhattan. Or perhaps that's just a typical suburban American.
That's a pretty good description. Me, I wish I could use transit more frequently - my fleet isn't exactly cheap to insure or maintain, even with them all being registered in North Carolina. But I do when I can, and drive when I must.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh yes they are
Peace,
ANDEE
I own a '90 4-cyl. Camry (they run forever) with about 73k miles on it. I have a driveway so parking isn't a concern. A car is a necessity (not an evil one though) on Staten Island. But I'm lucky in that two supermarkets and three shopping centers are within a ½ mile of my house. I could walk to them if I had to but only for small purchases. Adequate transit doesn't help with large purchases. The S.I. Mall is 5 miles from here and NJ shopping about 15 to 20 miles. I probably make shorter trips than a lot of Brooklyn and Queens people who drive out to Nassau to shop.
I can walk to the Hylan Blvd express buses for trips into Manhattan, but rarely use the local buses on Staten Island. The last time I used a local bus was to pick up my car at the repair shop. My next car will be an environmentally incorrect V6, I'm outgunned on the roads right now in my small car. V6 engines get good mileage now anyway.
Don't own a car here living in Brooklyn and working in Queens (Long Island City).
My one big headache is getting packages at the Post Office, from East 13th St. to East 24th St. and Ave R to Ave U is a bit of a hike in bad weather.
My one big headache is getting packages at the Post Office, from East 13th St. to East 24th St. and Ave R to Ave U is a bit of a hike in bad weather.
If you're dropping off, then instead of walking to 11229, you can take the B2 to 11234 on Flatbush Avenue.
If you're picking up, why aren't the packages delivered to your home (you don't have to answer, I don't want to pry)?
I own a car. I go to college way outside of Altanta, so a car is the only way to get there. If I lived more intown and went to school there, I probably would not need a car, unless I wanted to drive to the F***ing suburbs. We should have commuter rail in 15 years so that won't be a problem then. When I have a career, I'm going to live intown, so it's possible for me not to have a car. I would definitly not have a car if I had a choice. I could use the extra money for other stuff. I hate driving and I would use transit whenever I can.
I've owned a car for the last 13 years even when I lived in NYC. I relocated to the Wash. DC area 4 years ago.
In NYC it is a chore to own a car, but I did it because I have friends throughout the city and suburbs and outside of work I prefer having a car especially late nights. To this day when I'm in New York City I will buy a fun pass (or more depending on how long I'm visiting). Here in the DC area I drive very often, but again I will ride the bus/subway when necessary.
I found that many motorists tend to be somewhat anti-Mass Transit. As a motorist I'm very much in favor of mass transit and I don't mind being taxed a bit more if mass transit benefits from it. My philosophy is that owning a car (in the inner city) is a luxury and any motorist should be prepared. I do think New York City is hard on motorists, but again I feel mass transit should always be the priority for funding etc. I know many people just want to jump in their cars and while it's very convenient it is somewhat selfish also. I'm proud to say that I'm not a motorist that violate bus and/or HOV lanes, park in bus stops etc. I say again that owning a car is a luxury - and mass transit must be given top priority - as mass transit is the only means of transportation for many people.
Once a few years ago I was verbally assailed by "anti-motorist" for owning a gas guzzler. I tried to no avail to explain that my Honda Accord is quite fuel efficient.
Mass Transit all the way.
Wayne
"How many of you own an automobile?"
I do, a '98 Ford Escort sedan.
"If so, do you feel it is a necessary evil where you live?"
Yes, far Northwest Side of Chicago and the nearby suburbs. The L and Metra are fairly reliable, but CTA buses are somewhat spotty on most lines that don't directly serve downtown. Mind you, the bus service is there: most people are within four blocks of a bus stop at the worst, and the buses run every 10-20 minutes or so depending on the time of day. But there's NO "owl" (late night, say 10pm-5am) bus service this far west in the city, going anyplace you'd want to go requires a transfer (and thus the possibility of a long wait at a barely-missed connection), and half the buses on the nearest route to my house terminate nearly a mile east of my stop. Also, where I live happens to be far from a rail line by city standards -- at least two miles to the nearest L or Metra station -- so you can't give up on the buses and just walk to the train.
"Would you not drive if adequate transit were available?"
As it is, I NEVER, weekday or weekend, drive downtown or to the densest parts of the city (Lincoln Park, Hyde Park, etc.) because in these areas parking is atrocious and the L and bus service are good. Heck, the entire L and Metra systems are designed to bring people into the Loop -- you can't miss. But I almost always drive to the L or commuter rail station. If I moved into one of the denser city neighborhoods, where three or four Loop-bound bus routes run on the same street and a bus comes by every five minutes or less, I would get rid of my car in a heartbeat!
I do not own a car. My wife does (4 cylinder engine, 30 mpg). I've lived in many different places during my life. I've depended on SEPTA, MBTA (the T),MTA, Metro-Dade Transportation (Miami Metrorail/Metromover/Metrobus), Los Angeles' RTD and sister services, San Diego Transit and Atlanta's MARTA. I rode CTA on my two visits to Chicago. I've ridden these services everywhere. Of course, in New York I feel spoiled. And I've walked. And walked (a lot).
Ironically, my father has driven everything from a compact car to a truck. He was even (many years ago) a master gunnery and tank instructor at a time when some tanks still ran on 100-octane aviation gas. Since this volatile stuff was also used as a solvent and insecticide, you can imagine how high tank crews were flying by the end of the day (and I don't mean by getting on an airplane).
I own a small fleet - four cars, four drivers (soon to be five and five) in our household. They are absolutely necessary in North Carolina, essential in New Jersey (although the trips are much shorter), and a major convenience in Washington (although the Metro serves our daughter [at Georgetown Law] well for most everything except grocery shopping). Even if better transit were available, I'd still have the cars, but I'd use the transit most of the time. (When we go up to the City we drive to the station, then take NJT to NYP and the subway from there, or on occasion drive to SI and take the ferry across.)
One might think that, for our daughter in DC, a car really wouldn't be necessary - the Metro works for most everything and a taxi would suffice for the rest. But for her to take Amtrak/NJT home means over six hours - walk to Union station, Amtrak to Newark, then back down to Little Silver on NJT, then by taxi or car home - and she can drive door to door in four.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I do not own a car or have a license. I don't want to drive, but the way things are on LI I may eventually have to unless I get in a real lucky spot.
In Baltimore, with our poor excuse for a bus system (the rail is too few, and too distant to be any use to 75% of the population) an auto is a necessity. There are 3 people in the household, and 3 automobiles, a 97 Geo, a 94 Toyota and a 87 Pontiac. To go anywhere in our section of Baltimore, the bus is either non-existant or on such long headways that it is useless.
The urban bus system is just as bad. Example: to go from my house to the Balitmore Streetcar Museum, which is two blocks from Baltimore's Pennsylvania Station takes 20 minutes by automoble and 2 1/2 hours by bus. The 19 bus line that runs on Harford Road, 75 feet from my house, runs every 60 minutes on Sundays. The trip by bus to BSM requires a transfer to the 13 bus (30 minute headway on Sundays), in a neighborhood that is the absolute pits.
If I have to go downtown during the week, the bus is acceptable. Expresses run in the rush hours and the running time from Parkville to downtown is just 30 minutes. Local buses take between 45 and 50 minutes for the same trip. An alternate is a 20 minute drive to the Timonium light rail stop and use the light rail to downtown.
I have a 1997 Saturn SL2. It is almost a necessity since I live in Oakland Gardens, Queens. The subway dosen't reach me, and the bus is sllllooooooooooow. So I drive to 179th on the F, Van Wyck Blvd on the F, or Main or Shea Stadioum on the 7.
I also have a lot of friends and family outside the city, especially on Long Island.
Heck, I also like my car.
:) Andrew
I live in the area. The Q12, Q27, and Q30 are pretty reasonable for me; I like the Q30 and Q27 best due to high service frequency, but it's true they take a while to get me to a subway. On the other hand, the Port Washington line is within walking distance, and the bus ride to Queens Village rail is only a few minutes. All in all, not to bad (and better than any other suburb in another city I could live in).
My '99 Honda Civic LX Silvermelt just pummeled through
upwards of 2 feet of snow (and trampled a loop-intersection)
without hysteria nor stalling.. first car to go around
the block all day... even outpacing the Domino's fella.
...but though I enjoy my car, this was a day I could have done without it! Between my car, my wife's car, and my parents' car (which I'm watching while they're away.) It took me an hour just to brush 'em off. And I have hardly begun to shovel them out! Oy!
:) Andrew
[How many of you own an automobile?]
I am 16 years old, and do not own a car. But my parents own a car, and oftne drive me places.
[If so, do you feel it is a necessary evil where you live?]
Cars are defintely necessary for most people. In this day and age, most trips cannot adequetely compete with transit, and cars are necessary. But as for myself, I don't usually go to places lacking transit altogether, and I believe that until you get into rural areas, most places that lack transit are boring.
As for cars being evil, well, I have a lot to say. Back in 8th grade, I believed that cars, and their occupants, were evil and racist, but I don't believe that any more. I don't believe that cars are evil, but sometimes I believe that those driving them are. Though I think SUVs are ugly, a full SUV is more efficient than a half full bus. But the people that I can't stand are those who drive over using transit for no valid reason, or refuse to acknowledge the existence of transit, or those who don't know its there when its right under their street. I was like that for the first 13 years of my life. But if someone drives to work over taking transit because they believe driving is more fun, then that to me is a very valid reason for driving.
I believed that cars, and their occupants, were evil and racist
How the hell could they be racist?
It was not the cars per se, its just that I felt I was going to school with a bunch of racists, and those same people did not recognize the existance of transit, so…
I have a car. I live in Champaign, IL (for another week or so). A car is indeed necessary here.
There is a bus system, and it bills itself as a good bus system. I suppose, for a city (pair of cities, really) of this size, it is a good bus system. That means it's totally inadequate. Headways on most lines are a half hour. Except at the busiest stops, there are no shelters; most bus stops don't even have signs. Buses routinely run late -- except when I bank on the bus running late, in which case it runs promptly on time. There are certain parts of town that buses simply don't go to, most notably the airport. (The nearest bus stop is about two miles away.) The biggest hassle by bus is shopping; there are no supermarkets in walking distance of most neighborhoods, and the bus stop is typically at the far end of a large parking lot from the actual store.
Walking is a pain. Many of the streets have been widened to four-lane arterials at the expense of reasonable sidewalks. Drivers routinely don't stop for pedestrians, even in marked crosswalks. And sidewalks simply don't exist, by and large, for all of winter. By law, the sidewalks are kept clear by the property owners -- only that law is blatantly ignored.
Despite the use I get out of the car here, most of its recent mileage is on drives between here and New York. I can't stand flying, and driving is still cheaper. I'd consider Amtrak if I didn't have to put up with a seven-hour layover in Chicago.
On 1/10, I'm moving out of Champaign and returning to NYC. I won't sell the car since I don't know how long I'll be in NYC -- but I certainly won't be using it much while I'm there.
"There is a bus system, and it bills itself as a good bus system."
The bus system is good because every UI student has to pay $60 a year.
The traffic signals are a farce. The WALK signal at Green and Lincoln, a fairly important pedestrian spot, lasts for 4 seconds!
The bike lanes were, and probably still are, poorly maintained and dangerous for both bicyclists and pedestrians. I think they were designed mainly for the benefit of motorists.
The bus system is good because every UI student has to pay $60 a year.
Is it that high? I thought the fee was $15 per semester.
It's a worthwhile fee. Campus is too clogged with cars as it is. Anything to reduce the average Chicago suburbanite's "need" to drive to class is worthwhile. Unfortunately, just about everything else in C-U feeds that "need."
And I repeat that the bus system is not good -- it's adequate on campus (during the semesters, at least) but it's pitiful off campus.
The traffic signals are a farce. The WALK signal at Green and Lincoln, a fairly important pedestrian spot, lasts for 4 seconds!
Let's not forget that Campustown is an absolute eyesore and is a big pain to walk through.
The bike lanes were, and probably still are, poorly maintained and dangerous for both bicyclists and pedestrians. I think they were designed mainly for the benefit of motorists.
Indeed. Was it someone's idea of a joke to run a bike path between the sidewalk and the most bus-laden street in town (Wright Street)? You have to look both ways as you step off the bus!
There has been talk of DelDOT extending the R2 regional rail line from Newark, DE, to Elkton, MD. This would only be about 15 miles from Perryville, MD, the northernmost MARC station. The question is not if these two lines will reach each other, connecting Washington and Philadelphia by commuter rail, but when. The other gap is in RI. Shore Line East trains from New Haven, CT extend as far as New London, CT. Boston's commuter rail extends as far south as Providence. Now if RI were to start it's own commuter trains, or by paying the MBTA to extend its line in RI, it could fill the 60 mile gap. If that ever happened, one could travel from Martinsburg, WV to Newburyport, MA entirely by commuter rail. (Connections in DC, Elkton, Philly, Trenton, Penn Station NY, GCT, New Haven, New London, possibly Providence, Boston South Station, Park Street subway, and Boston North Station. That would make the "Megalopolis" a reality.
So the article a few years back regarding riding the NE without Amtrak will be a reality.
There has been talk of DelDOT extending the R2 regional rail line from Newark, DE, to Elkton, MD. This would only be about 15 miles from Perryville, MD, the northernmost MARC station. The question is not if these two lines will reach each other, connecting Washington and Philadelphia by commuter rail, but when. The other gap is in RI. Shore Line East trains from New Haven, CT extend as far as New London, CT. Boston's commuter rail extends as far south as Providence. Now if RI were to start it's own commuter trains, or by paying the MBTA to extend its line in RI, it could fill the 60 mile gap. If that ever
happened, one could travel from Martinsburg, WV to Newburyport, MA entirely by commuter rail.
Or from Fredricksburg, Virginia to Newburyport.
After further researching it, I found that RIPTA is indeed studying a commuter rail line along the NEC from Providence to Westerly, on the CT border. This too is only 15 miles from New London. Megalopolis commuter rail could be a reality sooner than I thought.
Where did you find that info? Commuter rail to Westerly is listed as a No-Build project in the Warwick Intermodal Station DEAS. The 2001-2002 Transportation Improvement Plan lists "the upgrade of various rail stations on the Northeast Corridor in Rhode Island to accommodate commuter rail service in the future," but states that RIDOT has programmed no money for that in the next two years. See p.69 of the 2001-2002 TIP. In any case, the T is going to extend as far south as Warwick; construction is set to begin on the Amtrak/T station in January. Great news!
I too think the expansion of commuter services is great.
I also think that this mandates serious consideration to increasing NEC track capacity. There are too many places (near Washington, in Connecticut) where there are only two tracks. If you add too many commuter trains into such places, then Acela is going to have a hard time keeping to schedule.
I was referring to the reference in the Warwick intermodal study. I thought that they were listing the possibility of future commuter rail to Westerly as something to consider in the no-build alternative for Warwick. At least it's being looked at, which is a start.
The build year in the Warwick intermodal station EAS is 2018, and the TIP only covers the next two years; that probably means it will happen, but the money isn't there yet. A rail link to the airport is far more important, IMO, than commuter rail to "Swamp Yankee" country, but a Providence to Westerly commuter link could entice eastern Connecticuters to work in Providence, thereby creating some jobs in something other than the service industry. I'm sure the current number of commuters to Providence from the New London to Westerly area could commute comfortably in a Kia.
Didn't I hear that Shoreline East was thinking of extending further east from New London?
Shore ine East only runs peak direction in rush hours. Not exactly seamless service.
Also things get pritty sparce after New Haven, i.e. lots of trees & grass & cows .... would be hard to call it part of any city.
Mr t__:^)
Not too many cows in Westerly, New London, or Providence. A fair number in between, though.
It runs during rush hours in both directions, but makes no stops in the non-rush direction. The schedule says reverse express. Its simply that they allow passengers on the deadheads.
Clearly there would be no sense in turning down some revenue on the trip back.
Tell that to the LIRR. At 2:PM a Port Jeff shuttle leaves Jamaica empty and goes in service at Hicksville. At around the same time, a shuttle discharges all customers at Hicksville and runs light to Jamaica. They may as well allow people on the trains, bring crowding off those Ronkonkoma line trains and at the same time allow people a one-seat ride to the station with the heated waiting areas, newsstand, beer, and the subway. Of course, maybe the crew stays in Hicksville after the inbound leaves until the outbound arrives, and you can't run a train without conductors.
Weekends its worse, most trains run in service to Jamaica, and DH back out until Hicksville or Huntington (with crew!).
NJT has one deadhead Pascack valley line train, the 2:35 DHs back to Hoboken to become the 5:07. It should run with passengers, there are many people who board the buses to NYC around that time. Plus it would make round-trip tickes usable on days other than holidays and the day after thanksgiving.
I agree with your logic. It would merit a letter or phone call to MTA to find out why they don't do it.
I agree - NJ Transit operates several reverse-peak trains on the Boonton Line and Montclair Branch so they should do so on the Pascack Valley also.
Paskack is a little difficult for counter-peak service. It's a one track line. Boonton and Montclair are each two tracks.
I hear that one or more passing sidings are in the works for Paskack, after which counter-peak service is planned.
If DelDOT extends the R2 regional rail line from Newark, DE, to Elkton, MD, MARC will most likely extend their line from Perryville to Elkton. It's not that far, especially if DelDOT builds a yard and station in Elkton. That closes the Maryland - Wilmington gap.
The only problem is a 6 mile stretch of 2 track between PRINCE and BACON. Also PERRY could stand to become a full crossover again.
As of Dec 29th the 'Carhouse' at Mattapan is almost complete with roof panels being installed as this is written. Light fixtures were installed last week but the conduits are not yet completed to power them. Both sides are now complete.
The fleet is currently covering the six car schedule with seven cars. Since making an appearance on the tuesday after its return from East Boston, 3260 hasn't turned a wheel since. Shortly thereafter, 3262 joined it out of service. Both cars are under power and probably awaiting some pit time which has been limited due to carhouse construction. The seven car fleet can be hairy, though. Last week I was on 3265 when it went bad with a door interlock problem. On the next trip 3234 went down with a severe plug. Seven minus two equals five - one car short at 3 PM, with three hours of afternoon rush still to go!
The approach of a major winter storm saw some activity for the Mattapan-Ashmont Lines 12th and oldest assigned car, Type 3 5164! Several days ago it was moved from its usual home on the top of the ramp to the end of the ramp track nearest the carhouse, following which the wire over the ramp track was removed (as in abandoned - even the span wires were cut down!). Today the approaching storm necessitated the plow being available for service, so the forklift was summoned to tow the heavy plow back under wire. I only saw the results, but I can bet that little forklift never worked harder! The result was that I got to see 5164 move under its own power for the first time in person - ever! It is now sitting first out on the pit track, in front of 3260 and 3262. Let it snow!
Other issues:
3230 Very Noisy
3254 Very Noisy
3268 Little or No Heat
They could always borrow the one at Kennebunkport !
Eye have a picture of the BMTman sitting on a hay bail a top it's trailer.
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone know of any site with a NYC transit map drawn to scale (i.e. doesn't squish slender Manhattan to look more like a square)?
Thanks
The Straphangers Campaign has one, although it's not very good at differentiating between local and express stops.
The NYCT Bus Maps are all to scale, which has a legend listing distance and approx. time needed to walk that distance. The subway lines/stations are listed as well, though secondary to the bus routes.
The online versions are PDFs of the paper maps.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/maps/index.html
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/subway/subway.html has a scale map section of NYC and the surrounding area. Hope this helps.
--Squach
It sounds as if this snow is going to sideswipe us leaving only 6-12 inches in south-central PA.
It seems to be taking aim at the Big Apple, so happy shoveling guys!
(It seems to be taking aim at the Big Apple, so happy shoveling guys!)
No problem here. A blizzard is Brooklyn's revenge. I have exactly 17 feet of sidewalk t shovel in front of my rowhouse, and my front porch is 12 just feet from it. My car will be buried at the curb and my street won't be plowed for a week. But I won't need to use the car until January 7th, for a family gathering in Westchester, so I'm not worried. As long as the subway runs, I'm A-OK. And the TA will have two full days to get the snow off the tracks before Tuesday.
Meanwhile, the kids are thrilled. After three years, FINALLY a real winter. The park is near, and the sleds are ready.
Well in Sea Cliff it'll be impossible to clear the sidewalk. they are so narrow and they will plow huge mounds of snow onto them. I'll have to dig a path to the street!
This really sucks - why can't it come on Tuesday, thus extending my holiday break another week???
But NO!!! It's gotta come the day before New Year's Eve, throwing a monkey wrench in my plans to take a transit excursion!
I swear - it never snows, and the one time a big one is coming, it hits at the most inconvenient time!!!!!!!!!
Whoever controls the weather owes me bigtime! We better get one worse than '96 on a Monday!
Here's a sneak preview of things comin' at ya'
During the storm, the MSP airport pulled back to one runway, and they kept it open by using this same technique as pictured, only with bigger, articulated plows, followed by a line of monster sweepers. This prevents any windrows on the runway. Like painting the Golden Gate bridge, as soon as they finish, it's time to do it again.
This is all taking place while the planes are being de-iced on the apron.
I'd rather be in the subway in this kind of weather, preferably on a Redbird!
http://www.startribune.com/st/qview.cgi?slug=1SNOW29BIGTM.STND&template=metro_a_cache
We know that the R142/142A are hi-tech computerized subway cars that have automatic announcer that could talk. My question is how many of you think that the R142's look like the T.V. series Knight Rider that the car is hi-tech computerized & that the car could talk just like the R142 that have automatic announer that talk?
Stylistically, it does suggest a theme similar to Washington's cars, and the dark ends remind me of the Grumman Flxibles NYC Surface tried using in the 1980's.
This means that layups called "snowbirds" will be taking up space on the express tracks and other underground parts of the city.
Therefore, there will be NO EXPRESS SERVICE UNTIL TUESDAY in the areas with snowbird layups. This covers 95% of TA express track areas. All express trains will make local stops in snowbird areas as per TA rule.
So if your "express" train makes local stops, you now know why.
C.W.Plan #4 will remain in effect until 11 am Tuesday morning. Snowbirds will remain in layup positions until approximately 5:30 am Tuesday. Normal express services will resume at this time.
They should also prepare the Snow Emergency Trains for service. Time to get some pictures of diesel locomotives pulling R-62As and R-68s.
-Stef
Glad to hear the TA is on top of this. The question is, if alternate routing is in effect for Tuesday rush-hour, will the media know what is going on? In the Blizzard of 1996, we didn't find out about the underground shuttle between Church and 4th Avenue and active 4th Avenue service until we got to the train station.
I know one person happy about the snow. Rudy. He's been in heavy contact with City Planning about the census results, so we know where he is. He's happily ensconced in the bunker, and loving every minute of it.
I'm not sure if the media is going to keep track of every last service change that is implemented. NY1 seemed to have done a pretty good job with coverage of the Blizzard of 96, but that's about all the credit I might give to the Media. If anything details will be sketchy, or distorted.
Hizzoner will watch with interest the ensuing storm as it falls over the city.....
-Stef
And like every mayor since Lindsey, he'll have the snowplow fleet liberally dispersed throughout EVERY @#$!& neighborhood in NYC.
If ol' Mayor Bill had done that after Denver's Blizzard of '82, he just might have gotten reelected.
All weekend G.O.s are cancelled as well, right?
That is correct. No GO's this holiday weekend.
So it's safe to say there will be no 6th ave dash this weekend. Sure gonna mess up the Times Square celebrations with less avaivable trackage.
Sorry, no 6th Avenue dash. The dash will be loaded with B, D and Q snowbirds.
Service won't be as messed up as you think. However, it will take a bit longer so give yourself a little extra time.
The cold weather plan, in this case Plan #IV, is more than just lay-up changes. Yeah, virtually everything is under ground but there is far more involved.In reality, the cold weather plans are well over 100 pages. For one thing, storm command posts are activated. Reps from the various operating divisions coordinate their efforts where car equipment, stations, RTO all have vested interests. In addition, special 'scraper' contact shoes have been installed on some trains to keep the 3rd rails clean. Rail polisher trains are run as might be the jet snow blowers and de-icers. Again, lay-up changes are only a very small part of the overall plan.
True, Train Dude. It's just that I listed the specific cold weather plans and a small synopsis of what each plan entails about 3 days ago. I just did'nt want to sound redundant so I just stuck to the layups.
...the cold weather plans are well over 100 pages.
A real snow job :-)
Actually, Stephen, in this case your usual cynacism is not warranted. In addition to the "who does what and when and where", many pages get into the fine detail of where on each track, specific trains will be layed up. Therefore, while I may not need this information for my operation as such, my counterpart in RTO does need that information. This is critical because the D line will have 20 - 21 trains under cover. Crews need to know where to report. In addition, if one of the trains is reported with a defect, it helps that I know that #2 D Snowbird is on C-3/4 track at survey mark XXXX-XX. I'm sure that you can see that the D line lay-ups might be 3 pages. Multiply that by the number of lines and the 100 pages that I mentioned (actually it's more)and it's really a fairly lean document.
We'll see how the TA does. My experience is that the system can handle a 12 inch snow with extensive service, but the 28 inch blizzard of '96 knocked out the subway, the LIRR, and especially Metro North.
Any plan for /concern about blowing snow knocking out the junction boxes under the cars, as on Metro North in 1996?
All of the under-car equipment is either weather-tight or capable or withstanding snow and ice. The major source of failure in 1996 was trolley lead failure due to snow/chemical build-up in the area of the cleats that support the cables. This year, I am confident that we'll be in better shape since all trucks have been replaced and all cables & cleats are new. The real concern now is snow packing into the traction motors. As of this moment, 9:16 AM, there are no significant problems reported.
BTW: I'm greatful that by luck of the draw and 'seniority' I don't have to report until 8 PM tomorrow!!!!!
(All of the under-car equipment is either weather-tight or capable or withstanding snow and ice. The major source of failure in 1996 was trolley lead failure due to snow/chemical build-up in the area of the
cleats that support the cables.)
Is that true of Metro North also? As I recall in 1996 they tried to resume service the day after the storm, and had snow blow into the undercar-equipment and short it out (esp. on the Hudson Division where the wind came whipping off the water). The trains shorted out, and crippled cars stuffed service for a week.
...I'm sure that you can see that the D line lay-ups might be 3 pages. Multiply that by the number of lines and the 100 pages that I mentioned (actually it's more)and it's really a fairly lean document.
I didn't think they could fill 100 pages with details of the trains that were actually running and transporting passengers. :-)
Well although I like to go out I think i'll avoid the insanity in NYC this weekend, due to the New Years eve bash.
This means that the Brooklyn IRT will be shot. How about the 7 train? Will they store trains between GC and TS? I doubt it, not with New Years Eve celebrations and so forth...
Train#1972Mike
The 7 line is unique in that there is no real place to put it's snowbirds.
Their only real option is to have T/O's on overtime "rock" trains. This is when two T/O's simply take trains (without leaving their respective track) in Corona Yard and move them back and forth a couple times so as to avoid freezing up. They could also use the mainline express track between 33-Rawson and Willets Point to rock trains as well.
Could they store them on the Broadway express? The N and R layups could be moved to other locations (like the Manny B approach tracks, 4th ave express, Queensbridge line).
>>>>Could they store them on the Broadway express? The N and R layups could be moved to other locations (like the Manny B approach tracks, 4th ave express, Queensbridge line).<<<<
The move FROM Corona Yard to the BMT is a difficult move and would either cost a lot of $$$ in OT if double ended and/or would block main line services on the 7 at Hunterspoint Av. It is'nt feasible.
All of the other locations that you have mentioned are already filled up by other lines' snowbirds.
No can do because very few motormen are qualified on both divisions.
It was part two of Sick Out Railfanning ... although both the BMTman & I were off this day, so I guess it doesn't count.
The day started at his apt., then on to his favorite dinner
... "where everybody know his name".
First there was a quick stop at NYCHRR ... not too much happening in the AM, so after some hellos it was on to 130 Livingston Plaza to meet a couple of friends, then to the TA Museum where a new conductor joined us, then to a "flat" ... just like on a model RxR, a front of a attached house in the middle of a block (it's a vent shaft for the subway), then back to NYCHRR just in time to see them do some yard work, then a move down the street to the Brooklyn Army Terminal, then around the corner to NY & Atl.
I was a bit surprised at the size of the train ... maybe a dozen or more cars & that was just what their new engine was pulling (they left some back in the yard).
Mr t__:^)
So with a Winter Storm Warning in effect, what is the plan for mass transit? Will NYC subways, buses, LIRR and LI Bus run on a regular Saturday schedule?
Looks like the coastal low is gonna be strong and hit LI hard. I think we'll see 8-12 inches across Long Island, with 12 inches or more possibly on the north shore.
I think we'll see a foot of snow in Sea Cliff, being further away from the ocean, I doubt it'll change over. Also you got NE winds off the LI Sound, which enhance snow on the hills on the north shore.
Weather is my other small hobby and I know very well that the north shore of LI is gonna be the "sweet" spot for heavy snow.
Gusty winds and heavy snow, with some thundersnow around in the afternoon from strong convection will really try their best to mess up the RR and the bus system.
So can I expect a train at Sea Cliff tomorrow or an N21 bus?
How 'bout 9 huskies & a sled :~)
The forcast says the DC metropolitan area will dodge a big bullet.
Chaohwa
After a nice night w/ relatives in Brooklyn, went back to the #2 and #6 again today. As I was catching the #1 downtown at 50th street to go to Times Square an R142 express breezed by. At Times Square, another uptown train was in the station, but to my dismay, I just missed it. but 20 minutes later, yet another uptown R142 train came as well...and none of these 3 trains was the pinstriper....looks like lots of cars have been accepted now! That third time was a charm, I rode it up to 149/GC...announcements were working fine.
I went downtown to 125th street on the #4, and once again...I miss an R142A as it is leaving the station! So I got off at 86th Street to catch it (thank goodness for the express train!). All in all, it was a good 2 days of a new-technology train fix, as well as purchasing the 2001 NYC Subways Calender...nice work, as usual Bill Newkirk! -Nick
Some guy gets robbed in an F train at 23-Ely, then loses a finger from falling onto the tracks. It happened around 2pm this afternoon, and I was waiting for a Manhattan bound local at Woodhaven Blvd, and saw few E or F trains running at around 3 in the afternoon.
Also a guy threatening people with a knife was shot by officers at 14th street on the Westside IRT (I think) which also tied up service.
Seem to be hearing about alot more subway crime lately. Hopefully this is just temporary and from the holidays and not a permanent trend.
This all from the 10pm news on Ch5.
>>>Some guy gets robbed in an F train at 23-Ely, then loses a finger from falling onto the tracks.<<<
23-Ely was NOT the place to be Friday. A man was murdered around 6:30 am at 23-Ely on the southbound E/F plat by the 21 St exit. When I passed by at 8:45 am, the forensic unit was still on the scene and the area was still cordoned off.
>>>Also a guy threatening people with a knife was shot by officers at 14th street on the Westside IRT (I think)<<<
It was on the 8th Av IND. NYPD was requesting power off on 2 track at 3 pm.
All of you be very careful out there! There are too many miserable people out there looking to cause trouble.
That's why I heard over the scanner "all trains bypass 14th/8th northbound." What's really odd was that I heard this while riding the crosstown...
I don't like what's going on in the subways lately. Seems to be a real crime spree going on down there. 23-Ely is in a bad area, but the daytime crimes are quite scary. I have said bad things about Flushing, but it's way safer than anywhere around LIC or Sunnyside.
However I didn't see any crazy people today, that could be since I stayed in Elmhurst and Flushing.
Gotta stay in those chinese areas, I think they are the safest places to be. Seems to be more chinese in Elmhurst now, right along Broadway a nice new Chinatown is springing up.
I just hope we aren't returning to the bad old days in NYC.
[However I didn't see any crazy people today, that could be since I stayed in Elmhurst and Flushing.]
If you go into Sheepshead Bay you'll run into more crazy people.
[Gotta stay in those chinese areas, I think they are the safest places to be.]
As long as there are no Tong wars going on you'll be fine -- otherwise learn to dodge the bullets.
BMTman
We saw a bad day at that station to be sure - and NYPD needs to focus some preventive attention there. But let's not get paranoid, shall we. Statistically, you're safer in the subway than on the street in most places.
23-Ely actually isn't a bad area. It has some residences but its mostly commercial. It has crime but its not on a level so bad as to be called a "bad neighborhood". The bad elements usually come from people transferring from the G line.
And this will only get worse next August. Perhaps an increased police presence is warranted.
All of Queens is bad!
Cmmon it aint all bad. Sure Western Queens is pretty bad, and parts of Flushing and Jamaica (SE Queens) have problems, but the Queens Blvd area around Elmhurst and Rego Park is BOOMING.
Queens Center is supposedly one of the most successful malls in the nation! It's always busy no matter what time I'm there.
The four subway lines that serve the Queens Blvd corridor definately keep the Rego Park/Elmhurst area in good shape. Even alot of chinese are choosing Elmhurst over Flushing with it's better subway access.
I wouldn't go to the Queens Center if my life depended on it! I'll stick to the Smithaven Mall,besides it's cleaner and more stores are available.
When Queens Center opened, it was a nice place. Things started going downhill when the outer Jamaica Av el closed, and got really cheesy when Gertz and May's finally shut down.
People have different perceptions of places depending on what they're used to. A lot of of what you see can depend on the social skills you have to help you deal with other people. I have walked, many times, through the shopping areas on Jamaica Avenue. There are stores where I wouldn't buy anything, because they are aimed at a particular cultural taste I do not share. But I have offered kindness, courtesy and respect and have been uniformly rewarded with same.
I know the Queens Mall area. I know Forest Hills. I've shopped in Flushing. None of these places are especially concerning. But there is nowhere in NYC where you are totally, absolutely safe if you act like an irresponsible tourist, flash cash around, look over your shoulder a lot, or taunt others with non-verbal acts which are provocative and disrespectful.
Before you condemn a whole neighborhood, why not honestly examine your own biases, and really think about what you are afraid of? Is it a look or feel which makes you uncomfortable? Recent studies by Rockefeller Univ researchers showed that people shown pictures of young men with Afros were more likely to predict that they were muggers than pictures of men in business suits.
New York is diverse - and accessible, which means lots of different people come together to common places. It's part of its beauty. About half a dozen times over the past few years, I've played "good samaritan" (I'm a doctor) to help someone in trouble. One incident sticks out: a young, black, pregnant lady was knocked down by an unthinking guy in a hurry on a subway platform. In addition to myself, the following people immediately helped her: a "flower child from the 60's" white woman, a black man with an afro and lots of leather, three off-duty transit cops with Italian surnames, a Chicano, all working together (no one had met each other before) to get this lady to the hospital so she wouldn't have to deliver her child on a rush-hour subway platform (it was 53-Lex).
That's why I love NY.
Well nothing beats Smithaven mall, it's the only mall where I feel at home! :-)
Is Smithhaven anywhere near Bayshore mall? Girlfriend lives in Babylon and thats the only one I know in Suffolk, except Walt Whitman on the top of 110
Smithaven is in central Suffolk, in Lake Grove at Rt.347 and 25.
South Shore mall on the south shore on Sunrise Hwy.
South Shore and Walt Whitman are closer to Babylon than Smithaven which is further out.
re Suffolk County malls:
Smithaven is in central Suffolk, in Lake Grove at Rt.347 and 25.
South Shore mall on the south shore on Sunrise Hwy.
South Shore and Walt Whitman are closer to Babylon than Smithaven which is further out.
In addition, the Sunrise Mall on the Sunrise Highway is so close to the Suffolk County line that it almost qualifies. I would imagine that a substantial percentage of its shoppers, quite possibly a majority, come from Suffolk.
While it's not a mall in the traditional sense, the enormous Tanger Outlet Center in Riverhead shouldn't be disregarded either.
Peter: When I left New York in 1954, Nassau County was building up fast, but there were still some open space. Suffolk had lots and lots of woodlands. I remember Lake Ronkakamo (sp, Inc) had lots of room and so did Selden. Is there still a lot of open space in Suffolk County or has it all been built up like here in Los Angeles County where houses and stacked row on row?
This might explain my nightmarish E train ride from the WTC to Jamaica yesterday afternoon at 4 PM. I didn't notice anything unusual at 14th St at that time, but an out of service C train was at WTC with one of it's windows busted out. That train really congested the WTC terminal.
John, I was at 23rd-ely around 3 PM ...that is freaky what happened an hour earlier!
Also, an emergency break was pulled on the #3 train at 135th street late this afternoon, suspending Brooklyn-Bound #2 and #3 service for a short time. -Nick
They didn't run anything via Queensbridge during that time, did they? Shortly after 2 something told me to transfer to the G at 36th instead of Queens Plaza, but the one train I did see go past on the express went normal. Which direction was this?
I think this happened to Queensbound E,F service at 23-Ely. Someone robbed a gold chain from a guy, then while chasing the robbers the victim fell to the tracks and his finger was severed by the F train.
Is 23-Ely in a bad area or something?
Not really.
As a point of reference, it is in the basement, more or less, of the Citicorp. bldg.
Here are links to the stories about the 23-Ely robbery victim who lost fingers from the Times and Daily News.
Shows gang activity is alive and well in the system.
It is really best to not carry alot of cash when you ride the subway and especially not to wear any expensive jewlery or use fancy electronics.
Also I use a personal alarm, if someone attacks you pull the cord on the alarm and there's a piercing alarm.
I just read the article in the New York Times, and apparently the victim was caught in the doors before he fell to the tracks as the train was pulling out of the station. The train only stopped when a passenger on the train pulled the cord.
A couple questions come to mind: 1) Where the hell was the conductor a) as this fistfight was taking place in the platform next to the train, and b) when this train was pulling out of the station with a guy trapped in the doors; and 2) How was the T/O able to get a green light if all the doors were not properly closed?
Inquiring minds want to know...
On a somewhat related topic, since we've had OPTO here in Chicago, I've noticed that T/O's will often pull the lever to close the doors and then immediately duck back over to their console before the doors have even fully closed. While it may cut a few seconds off the dwell time at a station, it also leaves a few brief seconds where there are no eyes watching the platform or doors as they close. Talk about a disaster waiting to happen.
-- David
Chicago, IL
On a somewhat related topic, since we've had OPTO here in Chicago, I've noticed that T/O's will often pull the lever to close the doors and then immediately duck back over to their console before the doors have even fully closed. While it may cut a few seconds off the dwell time at a station, it also leaves a few brief seconds where there are no eyes watching the platform or doors as they close. Talk about a disaster waiting to happen.
That's why cameras should be mounted on the train connected to monitors in the cab. This way the operator can get a better view of the rear of the train and never has to get up.
Or, like on the MFL in Philadelphia, the cameras can be platform mounted and instead of having monitors pointed towards the conductors position (like in many stations in NY), they can be transmitted to monitors in the cab.
Some CTA stations have monitors at the head of the platform so that the operator can view the entire platform. However, these are only used on platforms that have some sort of visibility restriction (i.e., a curve or other obstruction) that would make it impossible for the operator to otherwise see down the entire length of the train.
IMO, however, even the best video monitoring equipment is still a poor substitute for an actual conductor.
-- David
Chicago, IL
A couple questions come to mind: 1) Where the hell was the conductor a) as this fistfight was taking place in the platform next to the train, and b) when this train was pulling out of the station with a guy trapped in the doors; and 2) How was the T/O able to get a green light if all the doors were not properly closed?
The door switches are the exception, on a system that prides itself on being "failsafe". There are on average 1 to 2 incidents per month where passengers are dragged along the platform. The door switches appear to be equally adept at missing caught hands, hand bags, back packs and baby carriage wheels.
Fortunately such incidents are not classified as equipment failures. Otherwise, they would have a deleterious effect on the otherwise inflated MTBF figures.
I read this Daily News article with great interest. However, the Aris Gil (the victim of the robbery) made a bad decision by purchasing a high comodity item and then wearing it at 2AM in the Morning. ]
N Broadway
Astoria: Unrealiable But Safe
I would agree that discretion is always appropriate in a public place.
But there was positive news for the rest of us: The police did arrest all three suspects. In New York, the Crips and Bloods gangs do not do as well as they do in LA. They do cause trouble, but tend to be rounded up faster and their effect more limited by the greater resources available to fight them. In Los Angeles, the gangs on home turf, are much more pervasive in poor neighborhoods (which don't get the investment that NY neighborhoods do) and the police are fewer in number and hard-pressed to keep up with gang activity. I think NYPD's intelligence division does, on the whole a better job than its West Coast counterparts. If this had happened on an LA MTA bus, there might not have been an arrest (police response times stink when you only have a shift of 20-25 officers to patrol over 10 square miles).
Does anyone know if The LIRR has two seperate titles for Train Operators? Someone told me that a Motorman is only allowed to operate MU trains and is a 6 month training course and the LIRR hires people from the outside. Where as a Locomotive Engineer is allowed to operate both MU and Diesel locomotives and its a 1 year training program. Does anyone have any information on this?
I just saw a big "ALL TIMES" sign posted today...it appears that they are fixing up Prince, 8th, 23rd, and 28th until March 3...All trains are going express....and afterwards, the bklyn trains will be going express for two to three months....it would be nice to have some express service BUT, I sympathize for those, including myself, who use Prince, 8th, and 23rd (28th is relatively close to 34th)...for Prince, people will probably use Broadway/Laff...those poor NYU/CooperUnion kids will have to use 14th and cross over...diddo for the Baruch kids...
that only means more people on the 6th Ave line....
but I wonder what they will do to these stations...they already closed a staircase at 8th Street earlier in November....did anyone else know this was going to happen??/ THis is quite a surprise for me...
Remember when Union Street/4th Ave closed for Station repair???...they actually did a good job...
Someone posted about this a short while ago, I think I was the only one to respond, but he made no big deal about it...
This warrants a new map and new station signage, since this will last more than a month and affect everybody. Also, the B'way line hits "a few" major tourist (morons who call it the yellow line) stops.
South Ferry
World Trade Center
City Hall
Canal St (Chinatown)
NYU (Not tourists but many people here seem to have same level of subway smarts - none)
Union Square (why?)
Herald Sq / Manhattan Mall / Empire State Bldg / Penn Station
Times Square
Bloomingdales (60th + 5th).
Even though all but one of these stops are unaffected, their very presence on the Broadway line attracts riders who may want to board at those affected stops. Keep in mind also that your average Jo Tourist will not know what stops are on the Broadway express. I'm reminded of two people bound for Times Sq who got off a train when the C/R said "express to 57th, 14th next."
For the map, I'd figure making the B'way line look something like Bleecker st, with a separate line for the express and arrows pointing for which direction has the stops.
NYU (Not tourists but many people here seem to have same level of subway smarts - none)
Them's fighting woids!
--Mark
(Graduate, NYU's College of Business & Public Administration
now the Stern School of Business, 1984)
Does that mean that awful 1970's white "refrigerator" tile is going bye bye? It's about time if it is!!! I can't STAND that stuff, and if this be so, the old tile will reappear, probably undergoing the same transformation as was seen at 5th Avenue further up the line. A source of mine in the know tells me that all non-standard tile is OUT, and that the traditional stuff is to be recreated/restored wherever possible. Current trends tend to support this.
wayne
The tile arrangement on the Archer Av stations is very handsome.
That type of design on newer 1970's/80's stations is perfectly acceptable. It's inappropriate for the older stations. I welcome the removal of those 70's tiles on the B'way line.
They did a wonderful job at 5th Ave. Restoration of the riginal mosaic was done superbly. The polar bear cutouts were a nice touch. I'd like to see a nice tile mosaic of the Flatiron building at 23rd. St.
An artist friend of mine participated in the contest for the artwork in those stations. The criteria was to have something reflecting the neighbourhood theme. So I guess the Flatiron might not be out of question.
Arti
It'll be a breath of fresh air, all right. Actually, some of the original tilework remains at the northern end of 28th St., beyond the platform wall put in about 60 feet from the tunnel entrance.
What would be even better is if the MTA could maintain the tiles in stations they renovate. Some stations renovated only in the last 10 years or so have had missing tiles for several years without being replaced. It's not like they need to recreate mosaics, all they need to do is install some simple white tiles. What good is a multimillion-dollar renovation if they don't keep up with maintenance afterwards?
It gets me that they have to renovate 4 stations at a time. If they would have left 23rd and 8th or whatever open it would have not really inconvenienced that much as there are other stations not that far away.
Arti
They probably want to get all those stations done ASAP because of the upcoming Manhattan Bridge service flip-flop.
Why not simply wait until the flip is done to begin the rehab, then do one station at a time.
Eventhough the stations are closing, I'm not clear if the local tracks themselves will be out of service. If they are, you will need both local and express tracks due to all the extra routes on Broadway.
Because the Broadway line will become much more popular when it feeds into the Manhattan Bridge. For everyone who's inconvenienced now by a closed station, many more will be inconvenienced after the flip.
I cannot believe they would close all 4 stations at once. Not in midtown Manhattan.
What stupidity.
I do not know if anyone has recently posted concerning this, but passing through Albany today, I noticed a small group of Amtrak California Sufliners parked just north of the Albany-Renselaer (please excuse my spelling here) Amtrak station - the relatively new bilevel cars. These 4 cars were all coaches, all lit-up in the interiors (although I did not notice any passengers), and were connected together as if for a single train. Now we've all seen odd cars adorning rail sidings, but this is a first for me. In at least one car, a large number of Christmas ornaments including Christmas lights were placed (presumably) just inside some of the windows!
Since these cars are not used in the eastern U.S. and to my knowledge there are no major Amtrak repair facilities in Albany (and the cars did not appear to be out of service or damaged), it intrigued me why these cars were located there? Does anyone have any light to shed on this subject? I would greatly appreciate it if anyone would like to add something here. Thanks.
-cordially and with happy holidays,
turnstiles
They're on their way from ALSTOM, Montreal out west via Lake Shore. They decided to side them here until after the storm. Bombardiers for the city come through here too since this is the junction between CSX, CPRail, Guilford and others. If it's going somewhere, gotta come through here.
Im taking a poll for all of subway personnel to answer:
Which division is better, A or B? Why?
Train#1973Mike
The question really has no validity. It's like asking which is better vanilla or chocolate. Ask me and I'll tell you that the B division is better. Ask someone in the A division and they'll tell you the A division is. I've worked in the B division for my entire career (except during emergencies). Hence, I have my prejudices. It could also be a question of convenience. If you live in the east Bronx, for example, you might love working the #6 line while if you come from Long Island, you want to work the E or F or R lines. If you want to talk about performance, they are pretty close to even. The projected MDBF for December finds the B division at 114,000+ miles while the A division is at 113,000+ miles. Not much difference between the Vanilla or the chocolate.
Well I've worked both divisions and I like the B division better.
Why? Because the A division sucks. :)
hahahahahahaah
I've always had a fascination with the B division myself. When I went to RTO in 1988, I was forced into the B division as a conductor and although I was promoted rather quickly from my station title, I opted to stay in the B division, despite living in Kingsbridge, close to most IRT terminals. Triggers and caps, P-Wire, side sign lighting, graffitti and clean car program outputs made the job fun. An R10 on Central Park West or an unrebuilt R40 on 4th Avenue Exp with the marker lights and ceiling fans. The IRT was so standardized, the B division was fun and you got the feeling you earned your money when you went home. Supervision was tough, equipment was rough, school car was longer and signalling was almost as challenging as color position signalling in the IRT, its only plus. I seem to get the impression the IRT was once an interesting place when the Low Vs ran but I remember riding the R9s and they were different puppies from the standards, I'm told. I've worked both divisions and I'll take "Barely Moving Trains" hands down. Although slowly but surely the B division is loosing its punch.
[Although slowly but surely the B division is loosing its punch.]
It's loosing it's uniqueness in terms of equipment (even more so, once the R-143's get here).
BMTman
The R-143 will make things MORE diverse. It will be a whole new car standard, and it will only compete with existing cars.
The IRT is also becoming more varied, since the R-142 is more different from the R-62 than is a Rustbird.
I was gone by July 77 but all that remained of my feelings for the IRT was my connection with the days of my childhood and youth and the prewar equipment. Kind of hard to call the IRT standardized then worked the 4/70, 4/71, and l975 (forgot the month) picks on the A div. True everything SMEE but every train a different motley mix on most lines much like the early days of Amtrak. The nastiest neighborhoods and clientele , dirtiest and most grafitti ridden yet I still had my nostalgia.The equipment was the worst too. Being it was mostly Bronx service then..and what the Bronx was then...you see.
To bad you didn"t get to work with the R1-9; they were great if you liked them and most railfans would. You're right with the variety of B div. cars; too bad you couldn"t have been the BMT as it had been, with variety. The IND was almost all R1-9 except for the R10's. BTW The R40 was the first class of car built w/o markers...never had them.For variety sake..the B div did have it all! Sadly the IRT I loved was gone by 1964...but I still lean towards it. That's why IRT man[hattan L] is my handle.
Yepper ... ACF and Pullman, R1/9ers (though most of the working remains were R4's) ... When the redbirds landed, the IRT was no longer the steel-toed macho it was prior. If you couldn't lock the wheels at every stop, something was wrong.
While it ain't fair to play (since A was defined as IRT and B really meant BMT, leaving us concourse clowns as forgotten breed in the "dead donky lungs on the D train and not "really B material" - lots of folks never really grasped what us IND leftovers were treated as at Coney). We were the ta's mongrels with KK's and NX's and RJ's and all sorts of weird attempts to convince us that the D train was the BRIGHTON line and not some silly Bronx Concourse thing which was considered an unnatural act.
Everyone tried to convince me that I was on the BMT when I really knew the R-cars belonged to the "city" and not Crooklyn or some other pretender, and any hijacking by the southern division wasn't for real. The B train really was the AA under incognito stealth and no REAL D train ever ventured south of Brighton Beach if it knew what was good for it. After all, those subversive Brightliners were really QB's in disguise and weren't fooling anybody north of 161st Street. :P
And we also knew that the slope R40's were a plot against Rego park. But ya gotta admit, them MJ's were cool ... all the way down to Jay street. Another transit museum I miss.
[The R40 was the first class of car built w/o markers...never had them]
Hey, Big Ed. Didn't the Slant R-40's COME with little tiny EXP/LOCAL markers sort of above the storm doors?? I seem to recall some pics in one of the books on NYC subway cars that showed them delivered with this feature. I assume when the cars went out on the road they were never put into use.
BMTman
Thats what I was refering to, although the R40s had other unique features. I remember how those doors all rattled to a slow close on their hangers, the westinghouse traction motors that whined like the Almond Joys and even some that had air conditioning, I think 4300s did anyway. Strip maps and the like were different from the side signs changeovers we did on older cars. On the R10s, it was as simple as installing a fuse to get the side sign lighting to shine bright green, key operated changeover switches for looped cars and the silly experiments that unfolded, car per car. There was an R30 that had Halon Fire Extinguishers installed in the group switch with flashing motor fault lights, another with DC Battery lighting and a train or two today with A/C traction. The R42s with spinning wheels, the R10s with flat ones and the R16s with dead ones, the B division was a breeding ground for guinny pigs and diversity.
Indeed they did have those EXP/Local signs, ironically they were built right about the time of the B Div. merger when the pure express or local concept started to die out...such as the B being a local north of 59th on CPW where the D was express but then the B was exp. on 4th Ave. Bklyn. etc
My only thought on markers was the rear end reds or the head end color combinations to show train routing which were becoming obsolete thanks to more modern interlockings run by remote train ID buttons, programs, etc. Can't swear to it but think we did use those exp/local signs in the begining.
Have a Happy 1st, Ed. You deserve it!
Catch ya next year!
BMTman
Big Ed: Now that you mention it, another memory comes back to life. Before I moved west in '54, I distinctly remember trains having those green and red signs, and expresses were expresses and locals locals. When exactly did this change? Was it at the Chrystie Street change in 1967? It seemed a lot of things changed and not for the better. Witness what has become of my favorite train.
It was at the Chrystie St. change/division merger indeed that the pure local and express concept changed. Which in a way wasn't bad. The B replaced the BB in Manhattan so nothing lost, while in Brooklyn it was basically identical too. Only difference was 6th ave. service rather than Broadway. I resented them making 6th Ave the sacred cow, with so much of the generations-old Bway BMT service sacrificed.
On the other side of the story your beloved Sea Beach was forunately one of the lines left undisturbed. I liked running it best when it was thru routed to Continental, still the old express services and a nice long run, via bridge etc. The present milk train run is account bridge work but even then I know how you feel. It bothers me seein the express tracks on BMT Bway unused 24/7!
Again, with Chrystie, too bad the K to Jamaica service did't work out as intended. Would have been a good safety valve for the Queens Blvd. overload, at least for those below 34 st. perhgaps.
The Exp/Local signs on all R units through the slant R-40s more or less indicated if the final field shunt step was enabled. In the Local position, there was no final field shunt stage, as is the case today; in the Exp position, it was enabled. That said, I still remember the very first D train of R-32s I ever saw. As it glided into 34th St., the green Local sign was lit. Since I didn't ride it up CPW, I have no idea how the express dash went.
Ok so which is better, Vanilla or Chocolate? I prefer chocolate over vanilla, having BOTH flavors. :):) Seriously, I should have stated the question a little more better.
Train#1974Mike
Mike: I would pick Divison "A" because it have better ride & faster.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
BTW: Mike good luck with your new job & looking forward to see u someday.
In the 5 months I spent as a CR in the B div (versus the 15 months in the A), I had more grief from the customers, more TSSs threaten to take me out of service for non-reasons, more problems with the equipment and more problems with my co-workers (especially one female CR at Stillwell who thought she was hot stuff because she had more time than I did). Of course, on the other hand, the commute was shorter (20 min versus 1.5 hours), so I could get more sleep and spend more time with my family.
All in all, it's more a matter of personal preferences.
Stillwell sucks. There must be something in the water over there. I like to work there as much as I like to have enemas.
Hmmmmm, ZMan. You can get used to anything & your statement can be taken two ways. What are you trying to say?
Welllllll.........
I'm saying that Stillwell is an awful place. I agree 100% with what Bill from Maspeth said about STL. It seems like there is some secret "cliques" between the crews and supervisors as well as amongst the crews themselves (especially amongst the Italians). If you're not "in", you'll never get a break, even if you're entitled to it. A whole lot of egos over there. The only other place that I see this going on is at Lenox Term. on the #3. But I haven't been there for 6 years.
Coney Island Yard is the worst. Going to CIYD on the AM's feels like visiting the Bergen Hunt & Fish Club. The regular switchmen have their own table in the corner of the crewroom at CIYD. If you sit there, the other switchmen will make you feel very uncomfortable so that you'll want to leave it. And only Italians need sit there.
Bottom line: I'll stay in Queens thank you.
I never realized how awful it was to work at Stillwell until I was out of there! Too many people, from all titles, think they are Gods gift to the TA, and have giant egos.
Does anyone know exactly what was done (and is being done) to the south side track part of the Manhattan Bridge to overcome its structural defect regarding train usage? If it took so many years to complete, will the north side track part repair take the same amount of time, or is it expected to be done in less time?
Are these repairs expected to permanently overcome the defects once and for all? Would the Rutgers connection discussed many times before on this site still be a worthwhile investment?
Why are subway improvements in NYC so expensive? What is the track distance involved in the Rutgers connection? I'd imagine less than one-quarter mile, maybe one-eighth mile? Since that tunnel is so underutilized, it seems like a no-brainer to make the connection. On the other hand, look how long the final 63rd St.-Queens Blvd. is connection is taking. What's the length of this final connection and how much is it costing? Aren't there ways, based on improvemens elsewhere, to speed the construction process and have it cost less than the typical NYC costs? What makes NYC costs so high (I'm assuming they are higher than elsewhere, per mile)?
Mike Rothenberg
(Why are subway improvements in NYC so expensive?)
This is the key question behind the Second Avenue Subway, the Rutgers connection, the LIRR to GCT, etc. I think it has to do with the goverment getting fleeced, and drowning in its own paperwork.
Excluding the stratospheric pay of the fiancial services industry in Manhattan, the average person in the NY metro area earns 29 percent more than the average person in the U.S. According to R.S. Means, the construction cost research company, construction costs in NY are about 33 percent above the U.S. average. It fits, right? But when the goverment does a project, it pays many multiples of what it would cost elsewhere. That's the problem with privitization, and private sector efficiency. One thing the private sector does efficiently is fleece the government.
Transportation isn't the only loser. Health insurance premimums in New York are about one-third higher than the national average -- again in proportion to overall wages. Medicare, which is entirely federally funded, gives New York about a 30 percent cost of care premium. But NYC's non-profiteers charge NYC double on Medicaid.
Why don't you read about this in the newspaper?
Because it's not news?
Excluding the stratospheric pay of the fiancial services industry in Manhattan, the average person in the NY metro area earns 29 percent more than the average person in the U.S. According to R.S. Means, the construction cost research company, construction costs in NY are about 33 percent above the U.S. average. It fits, right? But when the goverment does a project, it pays many multiples of what it would cost elsewhere. That's the problem with privitization, and private sector efficiency. One thing the private sector does efficiently is fleece the government.
Hmmmm, maybe it's time for the MTA to hire construction workers, buy construction equipment, and become its own contractor!
>>>Hmmmm, maybe it's time for the MTA to hire construction workers, buy construction equipment, and become its own contractor! <<<
I was under the impression that they already did that.
Peace<
ANDEE
(Hmmmm, maybe it's time for the MTA to hire construction workers, buy construction equipment, and become its own contractor!)
I spoke with someone in capital budgeting a few months ago about the effect of the boom on the cost of TA budget, and he said the TA was considering bringing more work in house. Choosing between the privateers and the public employee unions is like Poland trying to decide if it would be better off under Hitler or Stalin. When unemployment is high and workers are available, you are better off with the flexibility of the private-sector Hitlers -- if you can make them perform. But with the baby bust generation entering the labor force and labor scarce, you need the reliability of your own staff. That's why big companines are bringing more work in house -- and the public sector is privatizing. The government can be counted on to do the stupidest possible thing at all times.
Excellent questions. These topics have been dealt with in previous posts, but you may have trouble accessing some of them, so let me see if I can summarize here:
1. The Manhattan Bridge, in part perhaps due to its controversial design, has had to withstand years of asymmetrical twisting due to heavy subway trains crossing on one side or the other. This twisting caused heavy damage to the roadway, strain on cables (this is a suspension bridge) and cracks in the bridge's steel structure. NYC has been trying to get the bridge fixed for years (US Steel Corp. was engaged in this project for a while, and then either quit or was fired). In the 1980's the BMT tracks were shut down, and only the 6 Av IND tracks continued in service. For the past few years, the city has shored up bracing for the bridge, repaired supports, and done other things to reduce the twisting effect (the bridge sways as much as 10 feet when a train passes, enough so you can see a change in the visible horizon) to acceptable levels. They are nearly done with the BMT side, and in '01 will begin a three-year repair schedule on the IND side. I spoke with the chief engineer of this project about 6 months ago, and he expressed confidence that in 2004, the Manhattan Bridge will carry subway trains again on all four tracks. Repairs will then continue to restore roadway surfaces, bike paths, jogging etc., and the whole project is set to finish by 2008.
2. Subway construction costs underground in cities has a base cost of about $250 million per mile, give or take a few million. The most expensive part of this is where you build a station. The costs cover soil analysis, hydrology, utility relocation, environmental mitigation, insurance to cover landowners for property damage while drilling, blasting and other activities go on nearby, and the direct costs of construction. When the Port Authority built AirTrain above ground, they also had to spend money on traffic diversion information systems.
The 63rd St project consisted of two phases: a. a $900 million dollar line built starting under Roosevelt Island, which involved sinking prefabricated tunnel boxes into dug out trenches in the East River; digging up a corner of Central Park, putting in the subway, and then literally restoring Central Park tree for tree and stone by stone. This was expensive, but made the neighborhood as it was before. During this phase, most everything was done on budget, except that it was started just before NYC collapsed financially, and the project was finished only after the MTA received Capital Plan funds in the 1980's. That inflated the cost. The construction did not involve disrupting other subway services.
The second phase, begun in 1995, cost $645 million, and involved building a 1500 foot connector tunnel, rebuilding roadbeds to add crossover tracks on nearly 3 miles of existing line without disrupting existing subway service, and rebuilding part of the Broadway-Queens Blvd line to expand it from 4 tracks to 6 tracks without interfering with existing subway service.
Other costs involve legal activity: overcoming NIMBY lawsuits, for example. Also, neighborhood mitgation, such as rebuilding a street, providing soundproofing or sponsoring school or park construction.
Washington's Metro was built in some areas where construction crews had to blast their way through miles of solid rock. Time-consuming, and expensive!
Union rules and bureaucracy do weigh into this. Also, environmental rules for construction today are stricter than in the 1940's when the last full lines were built. And the NYCTA didn't have to put in elevators because their was no Americans with Disabilities act (ADA, passed in 1990) in the 1940's. But MTA did a good technical job with the 63rd St line. Los Angeles MTA built their Red Line for less (at first) until somebody noticed that their prime contractor had done such a shoddy job that the work was nearly criminally deficient.
System expansion is still possible today, but remember that the bigger the system is, the more you have to spend rebuilding what you have, including retrofitting elevators to comply with ADA standards of today.
If anyone would like to add something or correct me, please jump in.
[I spoke with the chief engineer of this project about 6 months ago, and he expressed confidence that in 2004, the Manhattan Bridge will carry subway trains again on all four tracks. ]
Do you happen to know it the speed will still be restricted?
Arti
I have no idea. It might be, because the swaying will not stop; it will be reduced to a point where the bridge's structural integrity is no longer at issue.
When you say that the bridge is swaying, I picture the bridge moving horizontally. I trust that you really mean that the bridge is sagging, i.e. moving vertically, when a train passes, right?
BTW, where did you get the idea that work on the 63rd Street connector had no impact on the Queens Blvd. line?
1) Yes, I mean the train forces the bridge section under it to sag.
2) I didn't really mean the 63rd St project had no impact at all. But the fact is, the 63rd St line to 21rst St was in service (albeit with a variety of arrangements) throughout construction, and so was the Queens Blvd-Broadway corridor. If the Transit Authority had shut down the G, R E, and F trains completely in the area around 36 St and had substituted shuttle buses (god, what a nightmare) so there was no subway traffic at all, the project could have been completed in much less time.
With all the squawking on this board about the night and weekend service cuts, I can just imagine the reaction if they had tried those modified service patterns 24/7 for a few weeks ormonths.
Then what you guys are saying is that the Manhattan Bridge'sw problems are not going to be solved in the forseeable future, or is it that they're never going to be solved? Is that what I'm hearing?
No, that's not what was said. The repairs to the bridge will enable the bridge to handle subway traffic again, by structural reinforcements which will reduce the swaying action to within limits that the bridge can withstand. This won't be the end of the whole story, but the bridge can return to service. Perhaps the best long-term answer is an entirely new tunnel or new bridge to replace it completely, offering both improved vehicular lanes and subway service. But that isn't happening in the near future.
(The repairs to the bridge will enable the bridge to handle subway
traffic again, by structural reinforcements which will reduce the swaying action to within limits that the bridge can withstand. This won't be the end of the whole story, but the bridge can return to service.)
We'll see what the deal is five years after full subway service returns. If all the cracking and corosion is coming back, we'll have just poured $800 million down the toilet. I suggest that we don't do it a second time.
I agree with you there.
Down the toilet, if not into the East River....
Any subway line that runs in an open cut or embankment will have problems because the snow will collect and cover 3rd rails. There will probably be suspensions of service on the N Sea Beach and Brighton lines, though it'd be a sure bet the A Rockaway line will be the first to go. Not only snow, but coastal flooding would probably shut down the low lying sections of roadbed.
The 7 should be fine as well as most Queens Blvd lines, and major Div A and B trunk lines in Manhattan.
LIRR will probably have problems, especially on the outer branches, Long Beach and Port Washington in electrified territory, Oyster Bay probably will also have problems as well.
If the snow ends by Sunday morning I think they should have it cleared out by the afternoon, but the OB line may not be dug out until Tuesday! :-(
OHH, NOOO! We're dooomed!!!
Don't forget about the Dyre Avenue line.
Let's see if the TA can keep the F train viaduct at Smith and 9th cleared. And let's see if those fences inhibit the work (recall earlier thread).
Let's not forget the classic Franklin Avenue Shuttle. That connecting line will be hard hit.
BMTman
The Franklin's one line where an occasional plow ought to do the trick there - it's not like they'd be covering up another track with each pass. I remember a time when I was off the RR where they'd pile it up on the express tracks in BK and then it would take weeks to clear those. :)
>>>That connecting line will be hard hit. <<<
Hard hit by whom, MM Luciano perhaps 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Besides the Dyre, Brighton, Rockaway and Sea Beach lines, every line that goes from subway to el is vulnerable. This includes the B, 7, 2, 6, 3, 1/9, G, J, M, and the Franklin shuttle.
In reality, the only lines which aren't vulnerable are the E and R lines.
And the C Line.
Well I thought about going to Manhattan today afternoon (12/30). The #7 train I got on at Main St took a long pause at Willets Pt. Then came the fuzzy announcements: "a broken rail at 74th St" (?), and "train in front of us with mechanical difficulties". And lo and behold my train was diverted to the snow-covered express tracks during a snowstorm on a saturday.
The train was running fine until the vicinity of 82nd St on the express track. The female asian T/O got out of the cab and climbed down from the storm door to clear the yellow signal lever of the snow. It seemed the snow affected the signals so when the train approached a signal it failed to switch from double red. Remember the unnamed (at least to me) but infamous yellow wooden board in the cabs? That is really a handy multipurpose tool! She used that board to clear the signal of the snow. Quite an experience to ride the head car of a #7 over snow unabated tracks. The lights flickered like crazy from the arcing. I finally got off at Queensboro Plaza to take the N to Manhattan.
On my way back I arrived at the elevated 74th St platform. All the trains passing by on the other side gave us folks quite a light show. Every third rail shoe was arcing with bright blinding white and yellow lights. One of the trains that went by looked so deplorable with those icicles drooping down from the sides and a full 1 foot layer of snow capped on top.
At least the line WAS running, albiet delays. You could have a broken rail anytime, you could have a train operator clear any kind of debris from a home signal stop arm anytime as well.
I love snow in the city. Lots of people walking around, the busses are running, but there are no cars to dodge!
The latest word that I have is that all subway lines are operating on or close to schedule with little to no effect from the storm.
But the subways were affected by the storm... at least on the #7. The T/O on my #7 had to go through the storm door to clear the snow while on the express track. That along with 2 locals (1 at 74th, 1 at 82nd) that weren't moving.
Now that the major portion of the storm has subsided, the subways are finally catching their breaths.
Still, I'd say the subway was able to operate pretty well. The subway seems to be able to handle a 12 inch storm. It takes more than that to take out the city's transport network.
Meanwhile, I heard an interview with a MetroNorth official. They're hiding their electric trains, so they won't get shorted out and trashed for weeks again, and running diesels on a Sunday Schedule. Smart move, compared with 1996.
Perhaps MetroNorth and the LIRR should always have enough diesels on hand to run a truncated schedule in the snow. Retrofit some of those old coaches with side benches only, and if it snows on a workday tell all but the elderly and the pregnant to expect to pack in and stand, but get them there, and save the trains to fight another day.
The shorting out problems in the 1996 storm caused service problems on the MNRR which lasted until spring. Thank god this storm hit on a Saturday, where that corrective measure could be taken.
And from upstate near Albany, NY (Selkirk) where we got about 8, we're pleased to announce that the municipal zambonis ran on schedule all day.
I don't see that as much of a problem. That would be classified as a delay caused by the storm. As long as trains weren't caught in or in between stations for long periods of time or outright suspension of service, this is to be expected due to the severity of this storm.
At around 10:00 Saturday morning, the Frankin Avenue Shuttle was shut down due to "icy conditions"
due to the heavy snow that is falling, i am declaring martial law and instituting "plan 9 from outer space" and am hereby calling up bela lugosi to head the snow removal efforts... all mta personnel are advised to cooperate fully with mr. lugosi...
Mr Wood would be proud
Peace,
ANDEE
All of us should be concerned about the future because that is where we will be spending the rest of our lives.
Channel 6 quotes Mr. Lugosi as stating:
"..I vill create a race of ATOMIC SUPERMEN.."
to remove the snow if necessary.
He vill create it, unt you vill like it.
Uh, but could you tell me what happenned to Plans 1 thru 8???
Now THAT's the BIG question...
BMTman
They did not have the magic ingredent: Flaming Pie Plates!!!
Plans 1 through 8 were drawn up by
a floater within WCW... and uhmm..
lacked sensibility.. and IQ.
Ah, yes. The movie that will go down in history for having a budget so low that home movies of Bela Lugosi walking around his home in a drug-stupor were used to fill time in the movie.
And who can forget the awesome "special effects" like a 1956 Desoto hubcap used as a flying saucer. Brilliant!
Ah, yes. The movie that will go down in history for having a budget so low that home movies of Bela Lugosi walking around his home in a drug-stupor were used to fill time in the movie.
And who can forget the awesome "special effects" like a 1956 Desoto hubcap used as a flying saucer. Brilliant!
It didn't help that Bela Lugosi died right at the beginning of filming. His wife's chiropractor was used as a stand-in, despite a complete lack of physical similarity.
My favorite scene in the movie is when one of the "police" uses his gun barrel - with his finger in the trigger - to scratch an itch on his head.
Last night we were threatened with 6-12 inches of snow today, this morning the sun is out, and the temperature is 25. The storm apparently formed further north of what they expected, and is now tracking slightly east of the original projected course. Go figure!
I envy you in NY in that you are getting the snow that I was counting on here, but I hope that it does not cause you any transit problems.
heypaul, let me know if you take the job sweeping switches in the East New York Yards!
LUCKY YOU
Peace,
ANDEE
Not so lucky. I have always enjoyed snow except when I had to travel great distances in it. Retirement permits me to stay at home and watch the snow fall. I had really counted on a heavy snow here for New Years!
For one day only, I should shange my handle to "Bill from Snowy Maspeth". I'll have to start shoveling soon.
"...that I was counting on here."
And just where is "here"?
Gettysburg, in south central PA!
Karl, if you really want to have snow so bad, come on out to Eatontown, New Jersey - I've spent much of the day shoveling 13" of the nasty white stuff, and I'm still less than half done with the driveway. (Anon_e_mouse Jr. is in North Carolina with two of our other children for a few days so it's just the wife and I at home, and she can't shovel at all this season due to her surgery - which means I have to do it. Don't tell my doctor - I've survived the shoveling thus far but I won't survive her tirade if she finds out.)
And, to keep a proper transit content in this, it would appear that the snow has had minimal effect on NJT's North Jersey Coast Line - the whistles have been right on schedule all day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon,
We still have ground cover from the snow on the 19th, but I was hoping to be snowed in for New Years with a nice fresh blanket of white.
I really think that you should be investing in a snow blower. You could sure use it today from the way it sounds. I was never sorry that I got mine several years ago, and we have had some rather easy winters.
As far as transit goes, the Gettysburg Railroad seems to be operating, but why wouldn't they, we did not get any snow here.
I really think that you should be investing in a snow blower. You could sure use it today from the way it sounds.
I could have, that's for sure. We haven't had enough to justify one since I've been in New Jersey - almost five years now - and I figured that with a resident teenager I could manage. How was I to know that, when we got the big one, he'd be away with his siblings for a few days? I did make a half-hearted attempt yesterday to find one, but most stores were sold out by mid-day Thursday on the strength of the forecast.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We are traveling to visit friends upstate for New Years, and they don't have a snow blower either. I wonder if I will wind up shoveling when I get there.
Don't shovel too much at one time now!
Happy New Year!
I can think back on sweeping switches in Livingston yard when the wind was blowing. The lead was almost like a funnel , you'd "pin" a few cars into a track, then another track, within a couple of minutes the switch was blown in you"d have to sweep it out again. I'm referring to the infamous Livingston winds blowing 40,50 MPH and more for days on end. Can't remember anything like that in ENY but I can remember one winter night the entire yard and the catwalks on the leads from the el were one big sheet of ice. Almost impossible to walk safely.Have fun.
It has been snowing heavily since early this morning in Sea Cliff, and it has been a bit breezy. The plows are keeping snow from accumulating too much, but right now there's about 9 inches on the ground in Sea Cliff.
Probably will be a foot or more, it's coming down heavy.
It's wet so it's sticking to everything.
It will taper off by evening, but it's gonna be rough for the rest of the afternoon. Also because of such strong convection, there could be lightning and thunder.
Pretty fun storm all in all. I just wonder if LIRR is running. How's that Sea Beach line doin?
Right now it looks like the snow is starting to let up here (Medford, Suffolk County). I'd guess accumulations at about 8 to 9 inches. A few hours ago, I took the Rodeo around the area for my first taste of 4-wheel-driving in snow ... and yes, the ads that say "The Beauty of Four Wheel Drive" are 100% accurate, it was terrific!
Dunno about the LIRR, but planes are still flying in and out of MacArthur airport.
John,
I have made arrangements with a team of huskies to come in and rescue you, if it is needed. Let me know.8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
In Manhattan, it's 1/4 mile visibility in heavy snow.
John:
Right here in Westchester county which is where I live we probably have at least a foot of snow on the ground and it is still snowing pretty good. The Bee Line buses in Westchester County aren't running today but I think that Metro North is still running but on a Sunday schedule. My car is buried underneath the snow at the moment and I'm going to try and shovel out the driveway shortly. I logged on to "The Weather Channel" a short time ago and printed up a weather map from "The Weather Channel" A low pressure system is centered almost due south of New York City at the moment and will probably move into Southern New England over the next few hours or so. Not many vehicles are traveling on my street at the moment. It looks pretty nasty out at the moment with blowing snow at times.
BMTJeff
Maybe the MTA, Westchester BeeLine and Suffolk Transit could get together and by large dump trucks with plows and chain-tires which could replace buses on snowy days. You toss your fare into the passenger seat of the cab, then clamber into the back bed. When your stop comes up, the driver titled the bed and you slide out through the rear chute (if it's not your stop you can hold on to a railing to keep from sliding out).
RonInBayside:
You have a very interesting idea for carrying passengers. I don't think that it is going to work very well and it sounds like it isn't very safe either. Unfortunately the vehicle that you're describing doesn't provide very good protection against the weather for the passengers who should happen to be riding on it. I'd choose the proper vehicle instead.
BMTJeff
Here in Exton. Pa., 30 miles west of Philadelphia, we have 1/2" if that.It's 1:30 P.M. and it's snowing harder, but not really covering
the roads. In Philly, they have 6" and SEPTA announced the Rte. 35 bus in Manayunk-Roxborough is not running. That's really no surprise.
I'm sure Todd Glickman can explain why we were spared and other people got 6 -12 inches.
Chuck Greene
Sure, I can explain it.
But this is SubTalk... so I'll just add that the MBTA is running fine in Boston.
How much snow do you have in Boston, now. Or, how much do you expect
today?
Now that's "Transit & Weather Together"? It's still snowing here in
Exton, Pa. , but the streets are still fairly clear.
Chuck Greene
Right along the coast, including downtown Boston, it's about an inch of slush. Where I live, about 20 miles northwest, about four inches. The far western suburbs (Worcester, etc.) hit the jackpot, with a foot or more from there out to the Connecticut valley.
The low center is moving right over southeastern Mass, and that means a strong east wind is bringing in mild air at low levels from the relatively warm ocean. Just what I expected would happen :-)
Anyway, back on topic, the MBTA is in fine shape. AMTRAK here in Boston is reporting scattered 10-15 minute delays. I understand they added 3000 seats between Boston and DC today, providing hourly service on the southern half, and every-other-hour service on the northern half. Does anyone know if either (or both) of the accepted Acela Express trainsets were out today?
(AMTRAK here in Boston is reporting scattered 10-15 minute delays. I understand they added 3000 seats between Boston and DC today, providing hourly service on the southern half, and every-other-hour service on the northern half. Does anyone know if either (or both) of the accepted Acela Express trainsets were out today? )
The news reports that AMTRAK service is suspended. They got over 18 inches in central NJ.
There's about 11 inches on the ground now with moderate snow. Roads are snow covered but passable. Some impressive drifts though.
The end of the snow area may be upon us by 3 or 4pm, and I think we'll see at least a foot of snow here, perhaps more.
If snow tapers by 5pm I am doing the unthinkable, catching an N21 to Great Neck. I hate cooking (like alot of men) and would rather eat out. And there's nothing good around here (for chinese food) so I'll have to go out.
It'll be interesting to see if LI Bus is running as well as the LIRR, but they should. If cars are going the street buses sure can.
>>> hate cooking<<<
You should learn to cook. Since you are always whining about money, you would find that cooking at home saves you mucho $$$>
Peace,
ANDEE
Or I can get a chinese wife who will cook for me :-)
Wives are also quite costly :-)
Arti
High maintenance, I agree -- much like a classic car -- but most of the time it's worth the investment...;-)
BMTman
Man I just can't win ! :-(
Lets see what costs more, upkeep of a whole train of Slant R40 or a wife?
In the long run, the wife and kids costs more than the bill to GOH the entire fleet of R40's, modifieds included!
[Or I can get a chinese wife who will cook for me :-)]
Have you been looking?? In all the 'right' places, I presume...:-)
Suprising to most people, you might find that Chinese people do not eat the typical Americanized Chinese food you find in most chinese joints (except for the really nice sit in ones). My chinese friend can confirm that his typical home cooked Chinese family dinner dosen't not consist of Pork Fried Rice and BBQ Spare Ribs. His family eats primarily seafood and white rice. I sat in at dinner at his house once and we had squid, sauteed mixed vegetables and white rice. I'm not sure what the heck kind of sauce was on it and I didn't want to ask :)
I still think there's some kind of consipracy theory here. The Chinese people eat really well and serve us their Americanized Chinese food which I'm sure isn't always made of the choice ingredients :)
Eitherway, no disrepect intended. Becareful what you wish for :)
Shawn.
Well that probably explains why the Chinese resteruants in Chinatown and Flushing serve a completely different choice of dishes. There is alot more fish, and in some places "Lo Mein", "Fried Rice", or "Eggroll" isn't even served.
The typical chinese food takeout has this more highly Americanized Chinese food, whereas I think the sit down table service resteruants have a better cuisene.
Occasionally you'll see the chinese employees in takeouts have their meal. It usually consists of fish and white rice, sometimes soup.
If you want better Chinese food,try a place that specializes in Hunan and Cantonese cuisine. This is what most sit down places have. Unfortunately due to some minor health problems, I have to abstain from this and other types of high fat food for the time being.
Still I think McDonald's is way worse than any chinese food!
That should tell you something right there about why Asian people (Japanese in particular) have very low cancer and heart diesase problems among their populations.
they'll feed us all that greasy, fatty crap -- that tastes GREAT! -- but is actually damaging for insides.
BMTman
>>> I hate cooking<<<
You should learn to cook. Since you are always whining about money, you would find that cooking at home saves you mucho $$$>
Peace,
ANDEE
Peter Rosa says that McArthur airport os open. Hmmm. Maybe arrangements can be made to airlift some food to your residence.
The snow is really coming down now, it's a blizzard out there with low visibility of less than 1/10 of a mile and winds are blowing it around. Plus I think I just heard thunder. It's a whiteout out my window, will definately get over a foot here. Hopefully it'll let up so I can get out, that is if LI Bus doesn't suspend service. ,
Here in Staten Island, it's 2:45pm, I have about 15 inches of snow in non-drift areas (some drifts are over my knees) and it has STOPPED falling from the sky somewhere in the last 10 minutes - it was still falling when I came upstairs, but isn't now.
At 11:30 the first snow plows hit Forest Ave, but bus service is very spotty - in the hour I was out, I only spotted one S48 in motion, though I did hear rumors of one stuck in the valley between two hills about 1/2 mile away.
"Here in Staten Island, it's 2:45 p.m."
Finally, a posting that gives time and location of local conditions.
Thanks. It makes for a much more interesdting and less frustrating posting.
Right here in Hastings-on-Hudson in Westchester County, New York I've got about 15" of snow at the moment (4:11 P.M.) and it is 27 degrees. Metro-North is still running as far as I know.
BMTJeff
And in Baltimore it's 4:25 PM and there isn't a snowflake in sight, or on the ground. At 9:00 AM (when I got up) it was 26 degrees and bright sunshine. I am miffed.
As an aside, my wife and I had to go to the store for some New Year (Century, Milenium) Party fixings. Store had no bread, but plenty of rolls in various types. However, toilet paper was sparse, but strangely, not a bottle of windshield washer fluid was to be found.
Here in Baltimore the TV stations have been trumpeting the "monster snow storm is coming" since Tuesday evening and Baltimoreans are famous for attacking food stores in advance of snow.
Dan Lawrence:
I was already armed with snow shovels, de-icing salt, snow brushes and plenty of windshield washer fluid. It is 4:40 P.M. at the moment and it is still snowing right here in Hastings-on-Hudson, New York which is in Westchester County about 20 miles north of Grand Central Terminal.
BMTJeff
It was a compact storm so either you got alot or very little. Heard Montauk got next to nothing!!
There is a snow emergency in effect across Nassau and Suffolk (presuming this exculdes eastern portions). I wonder if this affects LI Bus service. I will find out when I attempt to catch the N21 in just a little while.
Nassau and western Suffolk got 12-15 inches, while central Suffolk got around 5 inches, and the east end got an inch or less.
As an aside, my wife and I had to go to the store for some New Year (Century, Milenium) Party fixings. Store had no bread, but plenty of rolls in various types. However, toilet paper was sparse, but strangely, not a bottle of windshield washer fluid was to be found.
Here in Baltimore the TV stations have been trumpeting the "monster snow storm is coming" since Tuesday evening and Baltimoreans are famous for attacking food stores in advance of snow.
Not just Baltimore ... the same is true on Long Island and in Connecticut, and probably elsewhere. People hear that there might be an inch or two of snow and decided that they simply must have twenty pounds of whole-wheat flour :-)
People race out to buy food whenever they hear the word snow. It's just like the people who buy plywood whenever they hear the word hurricane.
I often wonder what happened to all of the plywood from previous hurricane threats.
I often wonder what happened to all of the plywood from previous hurricane threats.
As one who has been through hurricanes in North Carolina, I can tell you - it gets used for other building projects. When your house is spared and your neighbor's is trashed, you contribute it to your neighbor to help him rebuild.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That is sure putting it to a good use. I never thought of that!
I think that's so if it doesn't snow, they can throw the flour out the window and pretend it did.
And here in Laurel,MD, midway between DC & Balto, still no snow at 6:45 p.m. after a day of mostly sunshine & 25+ degrees. "Monster storm" (for this area) was predicted; some weather sites still won't give up and are still predicting snow for tonight. Yes, we also get cleaned out of OJ, moo juice, bread & toilet paper at the Giant; I thought that only happened here in the burbs. Never happened when I grew up in The City.
They should ration food supplies before storms so everyone gets what they need, and not MORE THAN THEY NEED!
That's what happens before horrible emergencies.
This isn't one of them.
Yeah, people panic when they hear about any snow. Of course those of who remember the winters we used to have in NYC should think of a foot of snow as no big deal.
It wasn't even a real blizzard, since you must have winds above 32mph.
Now 1888 was a blizzard! So was the 1996 storm.
"Right here in Hastings-on-Hudson....4:11 p.m...."
Good posting. Keep em comin.
Good posting. Keep em comin.
Ever look at the header of a message?
Sure. All the time.
Reminding me of Wxtalk about here. Time and place of observation, sky conditions and snowfall.
Sea Cliff,NY 4:50pm Overcast 12.5 snow on the ground.
Finally, a posting that gives time and location of local conditions.
All messages show the time and date. Leaving the time here is just like when somebody leaves the time on your answering machine.
They only give the time of the actual posting, not the time of the event.
The assumption can reasonably be made that the information is current as of the posting, unless stated otherwise.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
True in almost all cases, I know. But at that time the snow was coming down at varying rates in different locales, but sometimes at the rate of 2+ inches an hour. If someone were posting while looking out the window, what you said would be true. I didn't always assume that; guess we make different assumptions. In any event, with postings coming fast and furious from all the mid-Atlantic and Northeast an indication of the poster's location was an essential piece of information to understanding what was going on where; adding the time to the location in the text made for a better-reading post.
If you call me, please include the time! My answering machine doesn't do time stamps.
[And there's nothing good around here (for chinese food) so I'll have to go out.]
John, having Chinese food as a regular diet ain't all that nutritional. Have you considered trying Japanese? Sushi is a favorite of mine, but if you're not into raw fish, you might want to check out Terriyaki meals, where the food is stir fried. Lots of protein in Japanese food.
BMTman
Actually, my mom cooks chinese every night. It's nice and healthy. But, if you eat outside at a resturant regularly, that's not healthy. Resturant cooking and home cooking, big difference.
John, having Chinese food as a regular diet ain't all that nutritional. Have you considered trying Japanese? Sushi is a favorite of mine, but if you're not into raw fish, you might want to check out
Terriyaki meals, where the food is stir fried.
I used to like sushi, but then I read that it can give you worms.
I used to like sushi, but then I read that it can give you worms.
If you stopped eating anything that could possibly make you sick, you'd starve to death.
...11 inches of snow on the ground."
And exactly where would that be?
The Village of Sea Cliff. It has finally lightened up and we are left with 12.5 inches on the ground with higher drifts.
It was hard to find a place to put the snow while shoveling the snow in front of my door, leaving a short path to the street (forget about the sidewalk). The plows buried my side, but the road is clear.
Once winds pick up we'll have ground blizzard conditions later blowing it around.
It's the one time I'm glad not to have a car, to shovel out!!!
As of 4:30 I had 20" in front of my house, 18" in several places around my house...drifts up to 25-30"!!! Needless to say, I wont be going anywhere soon....Gotta give the Weather Channel credit, they sure had this pegged right from the start.....wish I could say the same about the various local TV mouthpieces...
At 8:23, it finally looks like it is slowing down up here! I was out at 6 pm and measured in three different spots and got an average of about 22-23 inches!!! With another inch or so since then..we should have a final total of around 23-24 even 25" up here.....WHEW! At the very least this stuff is light.....Unless there is someone in central Jersey that can top that..I believe we got the real bite of this baby....{not to mention the 40+" drifts...thats over 3 FEET folks....
Lou from Middletown, the Heart of the Orange County Snow Belt.......
Might also get some wrap around snow, though the dry slot just won't go away. Maybe another inch or two.
.....Unless there is someone in central Jersey that can top that..
This was received in an email sent at 9 PM from "(formerly Philly) North Jersey Mike" from Rockaway, NJ (near Morristown):
"As of 3:30pm today, we had 25 inches of undrifted snow on the ground. About one more inch has come down since then, and it is still snowing now!"
Just learned from the TA hotline and CH.5 that the Franklin Shuttle is out. Also, they are closely looking at the A-Rockaway line with the thoughts of adding diesels to the front of trains for shuttle service.... Stay tuned....
BM34x
Also, they are closely looking at the A-Rockaway line with the thoughts of adding diesels to the front of trains for shuttle service...
Wow, that should make for some interesting photos. Anybody care to venture outside with their cameras? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I wish I had my camera before. The frosted R40M/42's on the J and the M were really looking pretty :)
Shawn.
http://www.intellicast.com/LocalWeather/World/UnitedStates/Northeast/NewYork/NewYorkCity/RegionalRadarLoop/
I forgot to enter the second NYC radar loop - this one covers a wider area and indicates rain/sleet/snow.
http://www.intellicast.com/LocalWeather/World/UnitedStates/Northeast/NewYork/NewYorkCity/RadarLoop/
I was watching Channel 4 news and they were talking about taking the trains and that they were all on or close to schedule. During their talking a subway map came on the screen and it was very mixed up. It had the 42nd St Shuttle Running to the PABT, had the F running down 8th Ave, and only B and Q running on 6th Ave, is this how the trains are running today? Or is that just a simple graphic that shouldn't be taken seriously or in depth?
Thanks
Mike
"Mr. Mass Transit" As I am sometimes known
If you "know mass transit" you can answer for yourself?
...thinkin there's a subway map on this site.
It's impossible for the Shuttle to run anywhere else than where it already does.
I know thats what I thought, but I really just wanted to know if anyone else saw this bootleg map?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" I've heard yelled in muh direction
Those maps are a joke. Even though current maps are available in trains, stations, etc. they still use maps that show a yellow 63rd St Shuttle from 7th Ave in place of the orange Q, and that silly 42nd St Shuttle "extension" to 8th Avenue to name a few. Other "bootleg" subway maps are also shown on Good Day New York (Ch. 5) and NY1.
Reminds me of Philadelphia. In certain places that nobody usually looks at a map, such as the pedestrian tunnels that are not frequently used, or some of the farther away rail stations, they have maps that don't show the commuter tunnel, show the R8 to Newtown, R3 to West Chester, R5 to Parkesburg, the spur to Quakertown from Lansdale, the full Cynwyd line to Manayunk. And they don't even show the R notation, just show all lines in the same color. Its really sad to look at those maps, to see what lines I missed.
SEPTA's misinformation campaign is really sad. When I first moved up here for college on the R3, I got on an outbound train at Swarthmore and when the conductor asked where I was going, and I said West Chester. It was embarrassing.
Snow has finally tapered off here, and left us with about a foot of snow on the ground, 12.5 to be pushing it.
The plows are doing a great job keeping streets clear. If the backlash snow activity continues to appear sporadic, I will be catching the 5:32pm N21 Bus. I gotta see what all this snow looks like all over the area. So has anyone seen any buses or subways shut down? Hear that the Franklin shuttle is out by haven't heard anything else.
Are the Hippos still running on the Sea Beach?
Yes the R68s are still running... or at least when I took it this afternoon. The #7 ran in "bursts" this afternoon.
I saw a R142A #6 heading downtown on 42nd St, some cars have red stripes below the side windows. I failed to catch an R142 on the #2. Anyone knows were the R142s in service today?
It seems like the R142s on the #2 aren't in service on the weekends. I ride the 2 every weekend and haven't seen one on a weekend in ages.
When I was looking at Greller's NYC Subway Cars book which I have a copy of the book I was looking at pg 119 of the GOH R40 Slant & R40 #4218 was marked "F". Were R40Slant running on the "F" when they all finish the GOH after that?
No, no slants have run on the F line since the 1970's. They ruled the B line after they returned from GOH in 1987-88, and slowly found their way onto the L and N lines. In 10/97, they were mostly x-ferred to the Q.
It's sorta funny, but I still associate the slants with the A line, even though they haven't run there for 16 years.
>>>>It's sorta funny, but I still associate the slants with the A line, even though they haven't run there for 16 years.<<<<
No, it can't be that long. I'm getting old.
Geez, when I was a young railfan in 1981 playing hooky to ride the trains, I remember:
A-slant R40, 44
AA-slant R40
B-R38
CC-R10
D-Mod.R40, 42
E/F-R46
GG-R10
J-R16
LL-R27/30
M-R27/30
N-R32, 46
QB-don't remember
RR-mod.R40, 42
The used the same stuff as the -- R-27/30's and also 42's. (The also used 27/30's)
I am wondering that since the R32 fleet has nearly 600 cars, only on the N line at the time?
Chaohwa
That's the only line that I remember.
Of course I'm only reminiscing about my early days and not making exact statements as to what line had what equipment.
Just like the days I grew up in the early 1970s, since I could only ride subway on weekends, I never knew the existence of EE, K/KK, Bowling Green and Culver Shuttles.
Chaohwa
As I recall, the R-32s were inaugurated on the "Q" line. As arrivals progressed, they were also seen on the "N", "T" and "TT" lines. I never saw these on the "RR", "QB" and "QT" lines, or the 2 shuttles (Culver and Franklin), although I had seen them on the "Banker's Specials"! This, of course, was before Chrystie Street was implemented.
The R32's were scattered all over the southern division BMT lines, so you'd see them on the B, D, M, N, QB, and RR lines during this time as well.
This was before the GOH program, so many more car types were assigned to a single line. In 1986, the R line had R16/R27/R30/R32/R40 and R42's running on it.
Back then (1981) I also saw the r32s on the "B" as well as the "N". This was in their orange-door days. I think the R38s were on the "AA" along with some of the R40. Perhaps r32 were on the "AA" as well. I know they were there in the 70s.
wayne
The R-32s first appeared on the AA right after Chrystie St. I vivdly remember seeing them regularly on both the AA and D lines beginning in December of 1967. When on the AA, their lower side destination signs would say either, "Chambers St." or "Hudson Term'l".
Those cursed R32 seemed to be everywhere after Chrystie. It was most disturbing having them take over nearly all off-peak D service and AA. OTOH neat what opportunities we had riding the R1-9 over the Brighton and West End when you were lucky enough [IMHO] to get one. BTW I did run an R32 on the J once..few years after Chrystie. Unusua lnight..had an R27, an R32, and R42,,different train each trip.
That's the key - if you were lucky to get one. Once the R-32s took over on the B and D, you almost never saw any R-1/9s. I know my R-1/9 D rides became extremely rare (not that they were all that common to begin with) after 1968. Interestingly enough, I never rode on an old time BB or B train, although I did see an R-1/9 B train deadhead past 34th St. once.
On a similar theme, it was 31 years ago today that I rode on a prewar A train for the last time. 42nd St. to 14th St., no headlights. Too bad I never experienced a CPW express dash on an old time A train, although I did so on a few D trains.
I remember riding on a solid R-1 "B" train on April 11, 1969. This train was in decrepit condition, and all my numbers are < 400, so that makes it a solid R-1. As bad as it looked, it made up for it with a creditable run up 4th Avenue in the express track. We caught this train at 9 Avenue after disembarking from an equally-decrepit "SS" train made up of some of the last-gasp BMT Standards, creaking and wheezing at every joint, and never going any faster than 15MPH.
Here is the consist for the "B": courtesy of the Grey Book, and dated 11 April 1969.
(north motor:) 264 342 302 184 275; 304 232 150 167 294
wayne
Wasn't that the same B train you spoke of some time ago? IIRC, you mentioned the bull and pinion gears got up to F# above middle C on that 4th Ave express run. No headlights either, right? None of the R-1s had them. I don't suppose any of the side destination signs were illuminated; you would still see them lit up in 1967, but hardly ever at all after that. I'm amazed there were any R-1s left at all by 1969.
How about the gears on the BMT standards that day? 15 mph would translate to a pitch well below middle C, F# or G at the most.
Was there any steam wheezing out of those standards? Your account of that 1973 ride on 1277 included "steam wheezing at every joint".:-)
Since I started riding different lines in 1967 at the tender age of seven and a half, I NEVER saw a prewar train on the 'A'- they were almost exclusively light blue-and-white R10s, with the occasional R42 from their 1969 birth through roughly 1974. Likewise, the R10s never seemed to run on any other line but the 'A' until 1974, when they started to appear on the 'CC', which was solid prewar up till then.
I did see prewars on the 'D' now and then until about June 1972- at least that was the last time I rode one. It did very well on the 6th Avenue express and Flatbush run, but groaned and wheezed horribly over the bridge. Unfortunately, it was put out of service at Prospect Park, so I never got to see how it handled the weekday Brighton express.
The R6s hung tough on the 'E', 'F' and 'GG' till about mid '76, thanks to the continued growing pains on the R44s. (They were also fixtures on the 'EE' from its 1967 inception through about 1972, when R16s, 38s and Mod 40s took over.) In fact, starting in fall '75, they seemed to be growing MORE frequent on the 'F', as more Slants and R44s appeared on the 'E', and R38s on the 'EE'. The last prewar I rode on the 'F', on May 2, 1976, I very stupidly abandoned at Queens Plaza in the false belief they'd NEVER be retired. Too bad; those 40-year-old warhorses still flew on the Queens Boulevard and Hillside expresses.
The R7s and 9s were mainstays on the Eastern Division from roughly the end of 1972 (when the 'M' was extended over Brighton, replacing the 'QJ', which was cut back to Broad Street) through March 1977 when they ran their last on the 'J', to be replaced by 27/30s and 42s. Almost every time I rode the 'LL' through 1976, it was an R9 with 'modern' TA silver-blue paint scheme and gray fiberglass seats. It really screeched painfully on the numerous tunnel curves, and labored up the steep climb up to the Junction. By fall 1976 the line was largely 16s and 27/30s with the rare glamour R42.
I never knew they ran on the 'AA' or post-Christie 'B', or 'QB' at all until I saw pictures on this site. Conversely, I never saw anything but prewars on the rush-hour-only 'CC' and 'KK'- but then I didn't ride much in the rush hours as a kid.
My big regret is never having ridden a prewar 'E' or 'HH' over the Jamaica Bay trestle.
You were fortunate indeed to have experienced the R1-9. They [with the exception of the DL&W MU's] were the last of the pioneer generation of traction in the NYC area and among the best of them.
Speaking from my age and having grown up with nearly all that type of equipment it saddened me when they were gone.
Indeed they did fly on Queens Blvd. Having an F express of them all the way to 179 st. was great. Thanks for sharing.
I was 10 when we moved to Jersey in 1967, and became immersed in the subway shortly thereafter. Prior to Chrystie St., the IND was all-prewar except for the A, which of course had the R-10s, and the F, which had mostly R-38s. IIRC, rush hour E trains also had R-38s assigned. My very first IND ride was on a prewar D train on April 30, 1967, followed by a prewar AA the following week. We took that particular AA to 81st St., as we were going to the Museum of Natural History, and it was there that I saw for the first time the sheer brute speed the R-10s were capable of, as an A train ripped past in a blaze of teal and white.
Incidentally, that prewar QB train in those photos was the museum train. It usually made one revenue trip each day during the PM rush hour. The bulkhead route sign came from an R-32.
The R-7s and R-9s began migrating over to the Eastern Division in 1968 with the debut of the KK. I saw them on the LL for the first time on January 5, 1969. During that spring, it was a roll of the dice as to whether you'd get a train of R-7/9s or BMT standards on the Canarsie, and by September, the standards were gone for good. Not too many R-7/9s got repainted silver and blue; I never rode on any. The biggest irony of all is that I rode on them more on the LL than on all of the IND routes combined.
The LL was a big letdown for them after days on CPW, Queens, etc. But glad to have them at all, better than the bomeyard for what time last left. The J was a good eal being mostly el.
I was thrilled to see them on the Canarsie; to me, anything was better than those BMT standards, which I did not like at the time. One time, I just missed an R-7/9 train out of Lorimer St. The next train was a BMT standard consist.
For a long time I associated the 1/9s with the IND and it seemed strange to see them on the elevated Jamaica and Myrtle routes. They had been a constant on the 'D' running on the Culver El from 1954 to 1966 when the R-32 premiered, but being born in 1959, I of course didn't know this. (My aunt-in-law lived off McDonald and 18th Avenues during this period, and said the groaning and hissing sounds would reverberate endlessly off all the apartment buildings, especially at night.)
The 'F' had its share of prewars post-Christie, but whenever I saw or rode the Culver, it always seemed to be a 38, Slant or 44. They also seemed out of place on the Brighton, which always was associated with 27/30s and 32s. The sound of one on a 'D' running express through Avenue J must have been memorable; I personally never had the luck.
Likewise, by 1970 when I was old enough to ride by myself and could finally go to Rockaway (no WAY would my folks let me drag them that far!), there didn't seem to be any midday 'HH' shuttle running, even though we used to see them crossing the bridge over the Belt. Since I had to be home for dinner, there would be no rush-hour 'E's for me, so it would always be an R10 'A' over the Bay- not that there's anything wrong with THAT!
In time, the R7s and 9s seemed a perfect fit for the Jamaica, Canarsie and Myrtle els, what with their ancient wooden platforms. If you stood at Myrtle and Wyckoff, it was possible to hear those compressor motors both below on the 'LL' and above on the 'M'. I went to high school in Jamaica Estates from 1974-77, and would get off the bus at the 179th Street terminal. If there was a prewar train idling or leaving below, I instantly knew by the sound- and smell.
In early 1976, the startling sight of a dusty gray R6 across the platform from a blinding steel 46 could regularly be seen at the terminals at 179th, WTC and, in rush hour, Rockaway Park. Everyone would pile on the 46, even if the "crappy old piece of garbage" was leaving first. A similar situation would occur at 168th, Metropolitan or either end of the 'LL' if a prewar and R42 were both present. If the unmistakable sound of a prewar was heard approaching any stop from 5th Avenue to 169th Street, it was common to hear "God, please let this not be my train!"
You really don't appreciate stuff till it's gone. In another five years we may see posts fondly reminiscing about the old LIRR diesel cars.
I know I would have opted for the prewar train in each instance. On those rare occasions when I'd get an R-1/9 A train, I was drooling. Not that I had anything against the R-10s (you know how I feel about them), but now I'd be treated to those great sounds plus no headlights.
I show about ten different consists of R32 on the "QJ", with numbers taken in 1969, 1970 and 1971. They weren't that uncommon. I also show a fair number of R-7a/R-9 mix consists also on the "QJ", amid the everyday R27/R30 and new 4800-series R42s.
wayne
It seems the R16's were taken away from ENY during the early 70's and given to Jamaica, as every picture I see on this site of them from that era shows them on the E, F, GG and EE lines. Since I've NEVER rode an R16 on anything but a BMT line, I find this very strange. Were they returned when the R7/R9's were finally retired?
Yes. They wnet back when the R-7/9s were taken out of service and when the EE was discontinued and replaced with the N (later the R). For most of the 70s, the R-16s were the mainstays of the Queens local service, while the R-16s and the R-27/30s held sway on the Broadway local (and in the R-16s' case, "holding sway" was literally true -- those things rocked from side to side more than any other car ever built for the system)
(B) R38, R42, R40M
(QB) R27, R30
(RR) NEver had R40M. R42s
Once in the early 80's, when I used the "F" train daily from Ditmas Avenue to West 4th St., a train of slants did come up. Another time around then, I was waiting for a different train at another station, and saw an "F" train of either R-32's or R-38's pull up.
Both of these were of course aberrations. I assume some of the R46's were under repair.
R40 cars (both non A/C and A/C) ran on the Queens IND "E" and "F" from delivery in 1968 and 1969 up to 1977, when they migrated to the "A". Not since 1977 has any Slant been seen in regular service on the Queens IND (except in possible rare instances).
Today you can find them on the "Q", "L", "N", and there are two trainsets that run on the "B" on weekends, just to give them exercise.
wayne
Does that mean the photo on Greller's book is only a pose shot, like R62 and R62A with the "2" sign?
Chaohwa
WHERE DO I ORDER THIS BOOK FROM ON THE INTERNET
You can order it via amazon.com. However, Dave design such a good site that you can find it here to find the book you want at amazon.com.
Chaohwa
Not sure, haven't seen the book. In the 2000 subway guide, they show a Slant signed up as "D", that had to be a "Q" with its sign changed.
wayne
During the MannyB closing around 1986 (when the R68's came out) and the Brighton D terminated at 57/7, I was working the line and we did have an accasional slant R40 on the D.
There were a lot of slants on the D prior to the R68's showing up.
Slants NEVER ran on the "D" as a regular occurence. Only R40Ms and R42s
Peace,
ANDEE
Untrue. After the flip of 4/86, I rode many of them.
Sorry, rode that line daily during the last flip, no slants.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm refering to the north section, mind you.
Peace,
ANDEE
No wonder we disagree. I was referring to the south (Broadway) section, which DID have slants. You're absolutley correct about the north (6th Ave.) section. It remained completely R40M/R42 until early 88, when the R68A's showed up.
That's the REAL D line. I don't consider that south section during flips a D. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
When was the last time that R36 Mainline cars ran on the #7 line?
prior to the early 1990's?
I don't think they ever have. They've been assigned mostly to the 6 line since they were overhauled in the late 80's.
The last time R36 Mainline cars were on the 7 line was 1991 only 6 of those cars came here. 9524-9529 that was during the GE R36 rebuilding program. 9494-9513 and (for some reason 9514-9519 didnt come over) 9520-9529 came over for about 4 or 5 weeks then some main line R33s came over as well. Hopefully ALL R36s will once again rule the 7 line as more and more of those R142As appear on the 6 line. Happy New Year.
Finding an N21 today was impossible. When the snow let up around 5pm I walked on over to Glen Cove ave, and waited for an N21 there. It never came, in fact, I didn't see many buses at all. The only peculiar thing was that I saw an N27 coming straight up the hill on Glen Cove ave from Glen Cove, going to Hempstead. It was a Cummins and according the schedule, it was ON TIME! Only two people on board.
The 5:32pm N21 never came though, I waited till 6pm and just gave up. Never saw it Glen Cove bound either. Had to get chinese food locally at Bamboo Cove. Actually they appear to be under new ownership and the food was pretty good. Some new girls there too. :-)
The walk to and from Glen Cove ave was difficult, the road wasn't plowed well. There were a few cars driving by, but it seems they all ignored me (sped and of course do not offer a ride). Yup Sea Cliff ave was hard to walk down, a 10 minute walk took 20.
Never heard any LIRR DE horns, so I doubt there was any OB LIRR service.
Didn't see any buses going down Glen ave. Service must have been suspended on the N21, probably they had a few buses going between Roslyn and Flushing. Who knows?
Heard NJT buses were suspended, and the malls in NJ were probably closed. Anyone for Garden State Plaza today?
So, what did all of you do today?
A LOT of stores were closed today. Among the victims, the Manhattan Mall and majority of the World Trade Center Mall. Some stores in Flushing were also closed (The Wiz, 99 cent stores, ... I think BK might've been open)
I saw a couple of "Not In Service" red buses in Flushing that normally carries the Q25/34/65/66 signs. No I didn't see N21 there either.
Wow, even in NYC a foot of snow seems to close down everything. I heard on the news that most of the LI Bus service was suspended, so there probably was no N20/21 today, although I did see that rougue N27.
Also with spotty 7 train service, as well as NYCT bus service, the normally busy Main street area must've been dead.
Must've been something to see. I remember my Mom saying how they make a big deal out of a foot in NYC, but years ago such snowstorms were more common. The buses could've and should've done better today. But then again, big snowstorms was one of the main factors in subway construction. The result is the train was a better place to be than the bus. Now if only we'd get a subway system in Nassau maybe everybody wouldn't be stranded when it snows a foot.
How clear were the streets and sidewalks in Flushing? Were they full of snow?
Sidewalks were largely unshovelled except for those stores that were open. There were more unshovelled sidewalks than shovelled last night. The Dept. of Sanit. did a good job of clearing Main St and Roosevelt Ave however. Believe it or not there was still a sizeable population walking around presumably looking for their buses. It isn't really "dead" since there were still a small handful of stores that remained open and sporadic NYCT buses in service as well.
Well the Chinese are pretty resiliant people, I betcha most of the shops that were open were the chinese owned stores, as they live close to their business and can remain open.
Will all the sidewalks in NYC be clear by Monday? I sure hope so.
I saw a couple of "Not In Service" red buses in Flushing that normally carries the Q25/34/65/66 signs.
I saw a Queens Surface bus (Q25) stuck in snow around the corner from my house. There was also a tow truck trying vainly to free it. The odd thing was that neither the bus nor the tow truck had chains.
None of the buses I saw were using chains. This repeats the experience from the 1996. Chains are expensive, a nuisance but definitely do work.
If they were truly serious about keeping buses running they could do it, chains would work.
I'm sure the bus agencies in the upper midwest and Great Lakes areas are laughing at us for getting buses stuck in only a foot of snow.
Chains deteriorate the plastic & fiberglass wheel wells in the modern day city buses. They don't make 'em like they used to!
The Snow Emeregency Train was dispatched to the Dyre Avenue Line today due to the storm, but it doesn't appear that it was used. Diesel 51 - R-62As, 1866-70, and Diesel 52 were used for that train. My guess is that the Rockaway Line probably had a Snow Emergency Train dispatched, in addition to putting together a set of R-68s with diesels at Coney Island Yard for the Sea Beach, West End, and Brighton Lines, in case they were needed. With that said, did anyone spot a B Division Snow Emergency Train?
There were no reprted outages on the Subway?
-Stef
It went soutbound (towards 149th St and 3rd Av) the previous writing, and just returned northbound several minutes ago. A good guess would seem to be is that it will remain at East 180th Street Yard until tomorrow at the very least in case its needed. I must correct myself, Diesel 54 was on the train with Diesel 51, not 52 as originally mentioned.
But..... There must have been a reason for Snow Emergency Train going south and returning north to the East. Logically speaking, the train was clearing the snow from the middle track, which has been covered for most of the day with the white stuff. The passenger cars if I recall orrectly, should have the special scraping shoes for clearing ice off the 3rd Rail. Can one of my friends from within Transit confirm that?
-Stef
1. The Franklin Shuttle was out, I think its back to service now.
2. While shoveling out my car and the driveway, there was a loco on the Livonia El running slowly over the tracks in both directions. After that there was a 3 train right behind it. Was this loco a "de icer" train?
Train#1977Mike
Not unless it had a de-icer rider car attached to it. If the loco was solo, then it was just running over the rails to keep them clear.
-Stef
Then it was just a loco running to keep the tracks clear then. Thanks Stef. Any snow on top of the R142's yesterday?:):)
Train#1979Mike
Speaking of the devil, I didn't see any 142s in revenue service on the 2 during the storm. However, one could find the 142As, 7301-10 running light north towards the East, and today, another 142A set ran north.... Go figure.....
-Stef
Then it was just a loco running to keep the tracks clear then. Thanks Stef. Any snow on top of the R142's yesterday?:):)
Train#1979Mike
The Storm Emergency Trainset, or SET, not to be confused with the de-icer, is run in 6 or 7 piece consists, depending on the subdivision. When called for, in the IRT a 5 car R62A is lashed up to a diesel electric locomotive on each end. In the B division, four R68 cars are transferred from Coney Island to Pitkin for the Rockaway Line, with two diesels as well. The leading end's Engine Brake (TM) is used to apply brakes on the entire consist for train control, pneumatic only. The passenger cars are staffed with a road conductor and T/O, and the engines are equipped with an R.C.I., miscellaneous T/Os and a train service supervisor. Motors are cut out in the passenger cars and hopefully if the third rail contact is still good, you may have some heat in the cars. The IRT consists run on the Dyre Avenue Line.
The Rockaway line was having some problems until about 5:30 PM. I saw the de-icer and two SETs, one was in the layup at Howard Beach, the other was moving down Fulton st. middle, the De-icer was running in the Rockaways for a time.
It's too bad that the MTA closed the 91st Station. Where were the entrances to the station? I live close to the former stop, and would like to know more, because for the past year and a half, there has been construction around the Twin Donut on the North-West corner of 91st street and Broadway, and they were digging up the sidewalk. I am just curious, and it would be great if someone could help me out.
Thanks
"Station to Station.. and we couldn't even say their names"
-SEAL
I don't remember the station when it was in active service, but the reason it was closed was due to the lenghtening of the platforms along that line. 96th was lengthened to the south, 86th to the north, so if 91st had been lengthened as well you would have had virtually one continuous platform. It simply wasn't justified. Since the station had just one entrance on each side, I assume that it was at 91st street. Probably if you look carefully at the sidewalk in that area you will find what appears to be a steel door... most entrances were closed that way so that they could be used by transit personnel in an emergency.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually reducing closely spaced stations to me was a good deal if not for those in immediate need of such station. Worth was quite close to Brooklyn Bridge, strangely the Broadway IRT was the only line that kept 18th St.The old Hudson Tubes, and the Lex line both had (19th and 18th) these closed and the BMT never had one.
If you look at a map of the Chicago el years ago you can see a lot of closed spaced stations are now gone, expediting movement.
Many of you are probably familiar with the Market-Frankford line in Phil. The Center City stations are two-three blocks apart, and there is even a passageway for pedestrians to walk along and visit each station on foot. (2nd, 5th, 8, 11,13,15). But they do make it very convenient to catch a train. You have to wait until after you get out of Center City before the train makes real progress.
I remember some of those on the run from Howard Street - I lived at 7600 N. Greenview (corner of Howard) and rode the Evanston Express each day to Merchandise Mart non-stop many years ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On the 7th Ave. line, the 14th St. station extends south to 12th St., whereas on the Lexington Ave. line, Union Square extends north of 14th St. The 18th St. stop on the 7th Ave. line was/is far enough away from 14th St. (and 23rd St., for that matter) to justify keeping it open.
Your answer is right on the money. Around 1958 the TA did a major rehab on the West Side IRT. All platforms were lengthened to 525'(10 cars). This work was completed in February 1959. The real reason for closing 91/Broadway was that 96th Street Station was extended southward, and included a new 24 hour booth and mezzanine with exits to both sides of Broadway between 93d and 94th Streets.
One can easily spot a break in the concrete
where daylight breaks into the station
from any south ferry bound 1 train
by eyeeing the northwestern edge of the
staircase horizon... with this given,
there MUST be a break in the sidewalk
above to give hints of the entrance.
Awaiting a return visit to 91st tour..
Right - I've seen that, when I was on the platform during a tour several years ago. But I don't remember for sure if there were steel doors, a grating, a poorly-fitting concrete slab, or what, and I haven't walked the surface area with the idea of looking for it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's a poorly fitting concrete slab on the northwest corner.
As for why the station was closed -- nobody would use it with an express stop two blocks away.
91StWisher:
I accidentally found that "station" about 10 years ago when I was riding a #3 express and it slowly rolled past the abandoned station.
BMTJeff
I have been away for over a week and have taken subways and buses in New York, the Acela Express, and the Boston T. Here is my NYC report:
I took an R32 with a black floor (3X98) from 34/8 to Lexington Avenue. Went to the uptown 6 platform where I was in time to see R142A 7240 make a simulated stop but I couldn't see the doors open on the other side of the train (this was on December 22). The destanation signs read NOT IN SERVICE. I took a few pictures, ran out of film, and took a few more pictues on my other camera. Then I took R62A 1670 to 77th Street. Behind this train were 2 trains of Redbirds.
The next day, I got a bit of railfanning on my way to get Bill Newkirk's Calendar (great job, BTW). Got all Redbirds on these runs:
6 from 77th to 42nd
5 from 42nd to 14th
5 from 14th to 42nd
Then I took an RTS on the M2 LTD from GC to the Met.
The day after that, I took R62A 1799 (I know this isn't the first car, my traveling companion wasn't able to move fast enough to make it to the front) from 77th to 59th. Then I got R46 6162 on the R from Lex to 49th, Several R32 trains were on the R train in the other direction. This was Saturday the 24th. On my way home, I got Orion V 6020 on the M104 and Articulated 1039 on the M79. The driver of 6020 was not so great. Poor braking and didn't pull all the way to the stop at 46th and 8th, allowing some other people to get on the bus before me even though there were not really at the stop.
No break on Xmas day. Took 1022 on the M79, Orion 6018 on the M7, 6008, and 1068.
The next day's travels are discussed in my Acela Express Post.
Pictures to be posted on Oren's Transit Page (http://www.orenstransitpage.com) in the near future!
I omitted my notes so...
People at 53/Lex seemed to think the gates in the corridor from the E to the 6 were decoration. Not great when you are heading the right way with a suitcase and you have a longer stride than the average straphanger. (First day)
Both escalators were heading up from the E/F platform on the last day. I had to carry my suitcase down the stairs and missed my E train, R32, and railfan window. The next E was an R46 and I was not going to wait for an R32. Also, what are they doing to the elevators from the 6 platforms. Had to carry the suitcase down those stairs, too.
For those of you who were reading my NYC Trip Report, we continue with December 26th. I went to 77th Street, took 8638 on the 6 to 53rd, missed an R32 E, took an R46 E (5918) to 34th. Got to the main concourse where my ACELA was posted on time...
Full details will be on my web site (http://www.orenstransitpage.com) but main things I took note of were:
Left NYP 6 minutes late
Arrived BOS 6 minutes late
150 MPH twice
Very comfortable
Spacious, new
The conductor has his own cab in the cafe car with a speed readout
Train crew (idk about 1st class but for business) is 2 engineers, 1 conductor, an assistant conductor, 2 cafe car servers, and an attendant who collects trash from passengers
IT IS COLD IN BOSTON!!!
I got the back up trainset (not the one that ran on December 11th or the VIP run).
Also, my Metroliner conductor was wary of ACELA (we were pulled by ACELA from WAS to NYP on December 22nd) but the attendant in the cafe car on AE was not
Pictures to be posted on Oren's Transit Page (http://www.orenstransitpage.com) in the near future!
Also, took a USAirways Shuttle from Boston to DC today. ACELA is better by far.
USAirways Shuttle from Boston to DC today
And you call yourself a transit buff. Shame for you!!!!
I do. I also have a family which seems to think they can leave from Logan Airport in the middle of a snowstorm and has other crazy ideas about how to get around the snow storm. It is amazing we made it out despite their chaotic-creating ways of planning and executing travel.
I hear that in Philadelphia, at least, the planes were in better shape than the trains from the snow.
Rode the T in Boston a few times. While I don't know what T stands for, I will have to call it "timely" because the T is so SLOW!
My trips (and unit numbers):
Green D from Science Park to Park (3656A)
Red from Park to South Station (01837)
Red from South Station to Park (01646)
Green D from Park to Newton Highlands with a transfer at Resivor (explanation later) (3411A to Resivour, 3693A to Newton Highlands)
Green E from Northeastern to Copley (3640B)
Green E from Copley to Museum (3674B)
Notes (most of which are complaints):
I already said what T stands for
I do not like the LCD signs on the red line 01800 series cars. They are impossible to read. The front sign on the 01600 series is fine, but the side signs with both destinations are hard to read as well.
They had three D trolleys back to back so they ran one express from Resivour to Riverside (the one I was originally on), one went express from Resivour to Newton Highlands (the one I ened up on), and the others ran local. The T/O who I talked to said they should have turned her around at Government Center to prevent the express runs.
There was a green line with LDC destination signs. Bad idea, you can't read them.
The Green E in the median of Huntington Avenue is slow!
The fare system is confusing!
They need signs telling people on the green line what trolley is next. It is hard to run down the platform when your trolley comes in and doesn't pull all the way up or goes all the way to the end of the platform.
Pictures to be posted on Oren's Transit Page (http://www.orenstransitpage.com) in the near future!
The green line is my favorite Boston line. However, it can get annoying because sometmes I would wait forever for a train and when one finally comes, it ends it's run two stops down. You can never predict where a green line train will terminate.
You sound like a tourist!
The T is an old system and somewhat patched together as far as signage goes. If you knew the system, the ONLY place you would have had to look at a destination sign was your Copley to Museum trip!
>Green D from Science Park to Park (3656A)
All trains from Science Park go to Park.
>Red from Park to South Station (01837)
If you're on the Southbound platforms, all trains go to South Station, the line splits after JFK.
>Red from South Station to Park (01646)
Again, all you need is the right platform to stand at.
>Green D from Park to Newton Highlands with a transfer at Resivor(explanation later) (3411A to Resivour, 3693A to Newton Highlands)
At Park the 4 outbound trains stop at their own "berth", two on the inner track, two on the outer track. If they made the signage much bigger, you would have bumped your head!
>Green E from Northeastern to Copley (3640B)
Proper platform.
>Green E from Copley to Museum (3674B)
At this station, you would have had to look at the destination sign. All cars would normally stop at the same location, with the following train waiting at the mouth of the tunnel.
Regarding Slowness. It's a trolley line! It will never be fast. The subway tunnel was designed (at least the Kenmore Extention) to be converted to Rapid Transit (Heavy Rail, Subway) at some future time. This would have eliminated a one seat ride for anyone outside of the Kenmore Square area. The Riverside line could possible be converted too. People prefer their one seat ride!
In the subway, the speed is limited by two factors. One is the radius of the curves. The second is no automatic stop devices (trips.) If the LRV's were fitted with trips, they would not be able to operate outside on the city streets in winter snows.
Maybe in the future, CBTC might be an option to speed up the subway portion on the Green.
Sorry you didn't enjoy your ride on the T. It's the variety that we find interesting.
I loved my T ride, the operator even went threw red signals. I assume unlike NYC they don't have to call "command" to go by each red and can get blanket approval to stop and proceed (as he did).
One time here in NY signals were lost near DeKalb Ave from Court Street through 7th Ave area. All signals went red (none under trains but then they wouldn't clear after the trip came up) and trip arms came up. Command ordered all trains (D,N,R,B) to call in at each signal to pass it via keyby (Keyby was working).
The biggest problem was getting AIR TIME to call for each signal, command just okayed each keyby as quickly as they could. A lot of people stepping on each other that night (keying the Mike at the same time).
In Boston on the Blue, when a group of signals go down, OCC (control) will have the first train through tie the trips down. Then following trains call in for the first signal, recieve permission to go, and call when they've cleared a pre-determined point. As soon as an inspector arrives at the first bad signal, he takes over the "manual block" from control and recieves the clearing call from the trains. He also protects the electricians who are working to right the problem.
When the problem looks resolved, either the inspector, the electricians or a train op will untie the trips. The inspector and the electricians will watch the signals for a few cycles and if all looks well, will then clear the line.
The process is very efficient and very safe as the inspectors are required to write down the train numbers as they're "cleared" into the block, then mark off the train after they've called and cleared the block.
Fortunately or unfortunately, this happens often enough that it only slightly delays service, usually under 5 minutes. Passengers only notice that the platforms or the trains are more crowded, trains still arrive close to the same headways.
All trains from Science Park go to Park.
some only go to gov't center.
>>All trains from Science Park go to Park.
>some only go to gov't center.
Huh??? When do they run a Lechmere to Gov Ctr shuttle??
I rode on one new year;s eve at about 5:15.
Maybe because I was one.
As for signage, there were no signs from the outbound Green line platform to the stairway leading to the Braintree/Ashmont Red Line Platform. I did find it eventually. I figured out where to go most of the time. The only problem was at Copley where you couldn't figure out what trolley was next and I wanted to be at the front. It sounded like sometimes, they would stop in the back half of the station. What would be nice at those stations (among others) is a sign like those in DC saying:
NEXT TROLLEY:D TO RIVERSIDE2 MINUTES
And I know its trolleys and that is why they are so slow. I am used to my 75 MPH DC Metrorail trains and it is hard to adjust.
Ah yes the trolley is a different experience, but viva la difference!
And for those old timers ... they NOW come with A/C WOW.
BTW, does anyone outside of NYC know what WOW means here ?
Has nothing to do with mass transit.
Mr t__:^)
Please don't respond to my WOW question ... if you missed the now deleted replys, it surfices to say that many folks besides those in Boston & NYC now know what it also means.
Mr t__:^)
If anyone rode the "D" train today and found "Q" trains running and thought something was a bit odd, here is how i heard it from a conductor. They were using "Q" to clear snow off tracks. They ran a not in service "Q" on the local track between coney island and prospect park going slowly to clear the track and keep the "D" line moving(supposedly because of what happened the last snowstorm that "D" service did not run, they made it a "Priority line" today.
Delays were bad on the "D". It took me 20 minutes to go from Brighton Beach to Kings Highway because the "D" sat at each stop for 5 minutes. Hope everyone else did not do as bad as i did today.
Hope its better tomorrow. Happy new Year to all.
Those shovelnoses make excellent snow sweepers, don't they?
wayne
I live around Brighton Beach and I can see the elevated structure from far away. I saw R68s and R68As on the D Line heading toward Coney Island. I didn't see the R68A head back toward The Bronx. I saw 1 set of R40s going toward Coney Island on the A3 track. I saw another one head back on the A4 track. I'm not sure if it was the same one.
Sunday it was R68 D's running deadhead back and forth on the Brighton, both local and express tracks to clear snow and ice.
Be happy you were able to get a train!
At 4:15 this afternoon I was watching a Fox5 Special Snow Report as Al O'Leary was being interviewed regarding any problems with subway service during the emergency. Although things were on schedule overall, he mentioned that the Franklin Avenue Shuttle was shut down due to icing conditions on the third rail.
Does anyone know if the line is back in service?
BMTman
Check my earlier posting. Damn you are late!!!! :):)
BM34x
Here's a hot times hot off my e-mail.
**********************************************************************Today, we conclude our walk in a winter wonderland.
Before we get to the current state of affairs on wintertime
railroading, we'll regress to a couple of past episodes. As I have
mentioned in the past two parts, snow does incredible things to
railroad operations, none of them good.
When plowing snow with a locomotive, all that snow has to go
somewhere. What doesn't get thrown to the sides get forced onto
the front of the locomotive. I have had enough snow pile up on the
front of the locomotive that it prevents the front cab door from
opening. We have had to exit from the rear cab door. It has never
happened to me, but I know people that have literally been trapped
in the cab as there was snow piled up in front of both cab doors
and they had to be dug out. It also gets jammed up against the front
of the snowplow, against the MU hoses and the drawbar.
A couple of weeks ago, the powers that be wanted us to pick up an
engine on top of our current consist. I tried to persued them that
this would be a Herculean task, but what did I know? Instead of
adding it on the rear which would have been easier, we did it their
way. And took a huge delay as a result. The front of inbound lead
unit was all covered with snow and ice. All of the MU hoses were
packed with snow and caked in a thick layer of ice. As a result,
they were frozen solid to the snowplow of the engine. Woodcrest
had to come out and thaw out all the hoses, pull them away from
the plow, remove all the snow from them, replace one of them
altogether and then connect them all to the unit we picked up. This
took over 45 minutes.
Trains that sit for an extended period in the bitter cold and snow
may just about freeze to the rail. Snow gets in between the cars
blocking them in and the bearings also get stiff. It takes forever to
get the air to pump back up. It may take hours to get the train
rolling as well. I can recall picking up trains in the winter of 78/79
that were sitting in sidings for days in the snow and bitter cold and
having to fight for an hour or two just to get them unstuck and
rolling free.
Owing to the weather, we have gone dead on the hours and were
stuck on the train. All the roads were closed and no cabs would
even attempt to make the journey to rescue us. Twice in my career
I have been on duty 17 hours, 45 minutes and once 18 hours, 15
minutes as a result of this situation. I worked with a crew that spent
26 hours snowbound and stuck on a train. In all of my cases, we
eventually got sprung by the use of another train. A passing train
stopped and picked is up, or they sent a crew out of the yard on
another engine to retrieve us.
A Burlington Northern Conductor I had met some years ago told of
being trapped on the caboose in CB&Q days during the 1967
Great Chicago Snow. He said they were there for two and a half
days. They ran out of fuel and started to burn everything they could
to stay warm including required forms, tempil sticks used to
measure heat on bearings and wheels and even the newspapers
and train list. He mentioned the ripping out "excess" wood on the
caboose walls and burning that as well. He told of pretty much
gutting the interior of the caboose to make heat. "If it burned, it
went into that stove."
Food can also be a big problem. I learned to pack a 12 hour lunch.
It is usually far more food than I will eat in a 12 hour tour of duty,
but that is okay, especially in winter. Working the road, I pack a
two day lunch. If I run out of coffee though, that can be bad.
This year, we are getting real winter in the Midwest. We've had so
many mild winters in a row with only short bouts of snow and Arctic
like temperatures that many railroad officials throughout the upper
US have lost touch with wintertime railroading aspects. Some
never believed that winter made a difference anyway. Everywhere I
have ever worked, somebody has decided that we will attempt to
run 10,000 foot long trains in sub zero weather. When it doesn't
work, they ask us what our problem is.
As I had previously mentioned, NS has a table for train length
based on upon the ambient temperature. MoPac had a policy of
135 cars or 8000 feet. But this didn't come right away, it took years
of unsuccessfully attempting to operate monster, killer horror sized
trains in the dead of winter. It worked in Fort Worth, San Antonio
and Addis, it just had to work in the north. Wisconsin Central also
tried it with repeated failure.
Last week on both Sunday and Wednesday while attempting to go
south on train 322, we never left Homewood alive. Sunday had us
with 10,100 plus feet of train. The temperature at the time we
doubled it all back up was 2 above and dropping. We pumped air
for over four hours and never got enough to be able to perform the
required brake test. We went dead on the hours right there and got
cabbed to Champaign. When I had suggested that we reduce the
train size, I was laughed at. The first thing the recrew that took over
for us did was reduce the train by 44 cars.
Wednesday night had snow flying, lots of traffic, major congestion
caused by the weather and only one main track open between
Kensington and Stuenkel. As a result of the cluster, we had to wait
on two Amtrak trains before we could leave. 392 met 59 at the
Homewood station with 392 pulling down on top of us and then
backing back out and using number one track after 59 did his
station work and departed. By this time, we had some 45 minutes
to work. It was snowing pretty hard and accumulating quickly. We
did have good air though as it wasn't the bitter cold that got us, but
the snow and its subsequent delays.
Amtrak has had their fair or unfair share of winter problems as well.
Frozen switches on their Chicago Terminal trackage, frozen
equipment, failed motive power and on the trains that are running,
freight train interference. As a result of the extreme weather,
Amtrak has temporarily halted several trains in the Midwest
corridor. These are short haul trains such as Chicago-Detroit, not
the long distance intercity runs. 59 did not operate south of
Homewood one day last week because of the bitter cold. 50 that
operates via UP, GTW and CSX was over 12 hours late out of
Union Station one day last week.
UP has felt the brunt of winter on its former CNW commuter
operations in Chicago. "Cost effective" reductions in force have led
to many of the problems. Less Signal Maintainers and
Maintenance of Way personnel at Northwestern Station have
resulted in huge delays for commuter trains operated by UP over
these former CNW lines. If CNW were still around, it is very likely
that this would not have been such a severe problem. A problem
yes, but not trains being so late as to make lead stories in the
media. Metra is not at all pleased with this situation. Their 96%
system wide on time performance factor has been greatly
compromised as a result.
The South Shore has also felt winter's wrath. Their aging catenary
system is succumbing to the weather. Lines have been down
between East Chicago and Gary leading to single track operation
and creating incredible delays. Trains have been up to an hour or
more late as a result of this problem.
The Shore was almost wiped out in the winter of 78/79 as a result
of the weather. Much of this was the 60 plus year old equipment
still in service at that date. It failed and the RTA came to the rescue
loaning the South Shore several sets of diesel hauled gallery cars
along with the motive power to allow some sort of service.
Hot box and defect detectors may also fail to operate or operate
improperly as a result of snow and extreme weather. If a detector
sight gets buried in snow, it may fail to read axle temperatures of
the train passing over it. This will result in a "Detector failure"
message being given over the radio. Railroads vary in their
procedures, but some, like the CNIC require the entire train to be
visually inspected by qualified employees, be it a member of that
train crew or a crew of another train. It can also be track side work
gangs. A speed of 10 mph must not be exceeded during this
inspection.
Conrail allowed a train to proceed not exceeding 30 mph to the
next detector. If that detector failed as well, the entire train had to
be inspected by a crew member.
The Wisconsin Central used to tell us to proceed at normal speed
"keeping an eye on your train."
Switches may not operate properly. You have to carefully check
the points after lining it to make sure the are properly tucked in and
locked against the rail. If not, a flange on a wheel can pick that
point and cause the car to derail. Switch machines at control points
may also develop problems. They may freeze, the points may bind
or otherwise hang up causing that switch not to line for your
movement which may require hand operation. We have had to
perform this manuver several times in the past few weeks.
Switches may totally freeze solid and require plenty of heat to thaw
them out. Derails may likewise freeze to the rail. Electric locks for
main track switches have also been known to freeze.
In bitter cold weather, or actually any weather where the ambient
temperature may drop below 40 degrees Fahrenheit, special care
has to be made in regards to locomotive failures and shutdowns. If
a locomotive fails enroute and either cannot be restarted or due to
the nature of the defect is unable to be restarted, that unit's cooling
water must be drained promptly. This is to prevent the unit from
freezing up and breaking the block of the prime mover. EMD and
GE units are not operated with an anti-freeze mixture. They use
water with additives for lubrication and rust inhibition only. I have
drained many a locomotive in my career.
A situation on the MoPac in 1979 led to frozen solid locomotive.
The fourth unit of a consist was a GP7. It had apparently died
enroute, unbeknownst to the Engineer as he did not get any alarm
bells notifying him of a problem. It was well below zero for an
ambient temperature that evening. By the time it was discovered
the unit was dead, it had frozen solid and seriously damaged the
prime mover. The unit was retired and eventually scrapped as it
was decided not repair the extensive damages.
Draining a locomotive enroute can lead to an interesting sight. We
take the necessary steps to start the draining procedure and then
go on our merry way. We do not have to stand there to supervise
and wait for all the water to come out. When it is particularly cold,
there is a tremendous amount of steam as a result of the hot water
meeting with the cold air. Last winter, Amtrak 58's Engineer had to
drain a unit in bitter cold weather. As he passed us, we joked on
the radio about it looking like a throw back to steam generator
days.
Then, there is dressing for the occasion. Anybody who comes out
ill equipped is going to freeze, period. I learnedquickly as a cub
Trainman how to dress for the bitter cold. Having had several
outdoor jobs in the past, I was already well equipped for the winter.
I started with thermal underwear, blue jeans, a flannel shirt, a
hooded sweatshirt, a snowmobile suit, insulated work boots,
insulated gloves, and an insulated or winter type baseball cap. I
pulled the hood of my sweatshirt over the cap and stayed warm as
toast, even when the ambient temperature reached -30 and the
wind chill was -80. Having the big beard as my "winter coat" also
helped protect my face as well. Of course my hot breath on the
cold beard caused everything to freeze up. I looked like the version
of a frozen Gene Shallit that Gilda Radnor (as Rosanne
Rosanadanna) described on Saturday Night Live one year, many
years ago.
"It's always something."
There are people who have been railroading for years that still
don't dress right. I worked with an Engineer who always showed up
for work in the winter with a blue jean jacket. His attitude was that
the cab heaters are supposed to work properly and doors and
windows seal tightly letting no drafts in. We all know otherwise. If
the cab was on the cold side, he would scream bloody murder and
demand another engine, usually not getting it though. FRA
standards for heat in the cab are actually very poor; like 50
degrees 8 inches above the center of the Engineer's seat. Not
exactly the tropics here. And this is while standing still.
I had an engine the other night that was warm as toast when
standing still or operating at low speeds. When we got rolling along
pretty good, it was like riding inside a piece of Swiss cheese. It was
very drafty. Air poured in through the poorly sealed doors, through
the door on the nose, and even through the gap between the
gauge lights and the openings for them in the control stand. I would
bet that it wasn't much above 40 degrees in there while we moving.
Even as an Engineer, at this time of year I still put on the longies
and insulated boots. I also carry a hooded sweatshirt along with my
parka. Flannel shirts are also part of the dress. Should that lead
unit die and not restart, it will get cold immediately as there is little
insulation in the cabs on most standard cab units and the heaters
will not operate if the engine is dead. And yes, this too has
happened to me over the years. Some Engineers go as far as to
carry a pair of Carhart insulated bibs with them. I used to carry
insulated coveralls, but have gotten away from that practice. I still
carry insulated gloves for this time of year and also a winter weight
baseball cap.
Then, there is overdressing. Too much warm attire on a day that
isn't too cold can cause you to perspire. Then you get cold and
really freeze. You must dress sensibly for the conditions. Most
Conductors and Brakemen will have additional clothing with them.
Just because it is warm at on duty time doesn't mean it will stay
that way all day or night.
Wearing all this clothing an also reduce mobility. Extra care is
required when boarding and alighting from equipment, especially
moving equipment. Your moves are somewhat to greatly restricted
by your clothing.
Walking in waste deep snow can be treacherous. Even snow a few
inches deep can be deadly. You never know what that snow might
be covering. There could be a hole or a tripping hazard that could
lead to a serious injury.
Back on the MoPac, old Mosey (Remember him from the
demolished roundhouse story?) started to drop off a car at an
industry we were switching. There was a great deal of construction
going on and everything was now covered with about a foot of
snow. As he started to step down, he just kept sinking until he was
up to his chest in snow. He got the move stopped and hung onto
the stirrup or bottom step on the car. He had the Engineer pull
ahead easy while he hung on to pull him out. There was a big hole
there that was not covered or barricaded. The snow had filled and
covered it and he stepped right into it without knowing. This could
have been tragic. However, he didn't panic which was beneficial.
Panic can lead to horrible events.
You are also walking slower to assure that you don't slip or trip and
get injured. This in turn slows everything down. You have to be
more alert as with all this protective, warm clothing on, you cannot
hear sounds around you as well. Therefore, you must always pay
close attention to your surroundings and all the goings on.
Bitter cold weather is tough on the body young or old and
precautions must be taken to assure that frostbite and hypothermia
do not set in. This can happen without you really knowing or being
aware of its presence. Again, action must be taken to avois such a
condition from developing and that means more breaks to warm up.
While it slows the operations, it keeps the men and women safe.
And as it has been written in rule books over the years, "Speed will
be sacrificed for safety."
I've been promising a piece about the hours of service and baring
something else coming up, will have that the next time.
I would like to take this opportunity to wish you and yours a very
happy, safe and prosperous New Year. This is the real changing of
the new millenium. I am fortunate to have this holiday off too and
intend to celebrate with friends and the beautiful bride. I could get
used to this kind of lifestyle. Two major Holidays off a week apart.
I'll probably pay for this big time at some point during the New
Year.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on High Iron, copyright 2000