Anyone who will be in Amsterdam be advised that some of the Metro personnel are very friendly and will let you ride in the cab-same for Dutch Railways.I rode Line 51 this way and it is an interesting line,because it travels in tunnel,as light rail on the surface,and as metro above ground.It uses intermediate weight cars.Line 50 has new cars which are faintly reminiscent of 1930's streamline styling and a very unique color scheme.Line 51 shares track with a tram line also.
If people want a particular type of Amtrak service to operate, it is possible to charter a train to do this. Therefore, I have a plan to create a new Keystone Express service that would be to the Keystone Corridor what the Acela Express would be to the Northeast Corridor.
I am planning a new service from Harrisburg to New York City. The train would only stop at Coatesville, Paoli, Philadelphia, Newark, and New York. I plan to offer connecting buses from nearby towns to Harrisburg and Coatesville. The fare would be 25% higher than current Amtrak fares.
Currently, the plan is for a eastbound train to leave Harrisburg at 7AM and the return trip would leave at 5:30PM from Penn Station. Total travel time would be 3hrs 14mins. If anyone has other station suggestions or info I need to know, please post this here. If you might be interested in using this service, e-mail me at jazumah@hotmail.com and I will try to return your correspondence.
I guess you would call this service "Clocker"??
No no no no no. If you think if you can fill a train with people who can pool their money to charter it every day you're mistaken. Normal ticket prices are padded with state and federal subusdies. Charter trains do not see this money. You guys have to pay 100% of the cost which I believe would be much more than %25 more than a standard ticket. Furthermore you might nt be able to fit in the schedual.
Actually, the cost to operate Harrisburg trains (all inclusive) per mile is about .20 per mile. This translates to $39 per seat between New York and Harrisburg. Therefore, having about 180 people between Harrisburg and New York would do the trick as well as numerous combos of intermediate trips. Amtrak charters charge you the same fare per seat as regular commuters.
Is that 20 cents per person per mile or just per mile? Because in 1955 it a GG-1 used c.30 cents worth of electricity per mile. Also let's say the engineer gets $30 an hour and at 60 mph that's 50 cents per mile. Now factor in crew, maintainence, employment of rolling stock, terminal operations, track ware and tare etc.
20 cents per person per mile
IF the train is full. Big IF there.
I agree an all-electric (hey, why not use the new HHPs) Harrisburg-NYP Keystone Express Train would make sense. But here are the stops I'd propose:
Harrisburg - Harrisburg Intl. Airport (when it gets built) - Lancaster - Paoli - North Philadelphia (the NY & Pittsburgh Subway helps cut travel time immensely, and connections can be made to other Philadelphia locations via SEPTA) - Trenton - New York Penn
(I'm always annoyed at the fact that every single Amtrak train stops at Newark Penn. If you really want Newark, you could transfer at Trenton for NJT or New York for PATH, though PATH would involve with a short walk crosstown in Manhattan. But currently the trains only stop at Newark to discharge passengers, and probably have to anyway to get a line-up for the Hudson tunnel. It's still a pain after riding for almost 4 hours to stop there when you can see New York almost at your fingertips.)
Coatesville is more or less a "local" stop when you take the whole corridor into account.
Otherwise, I'm game! The faster service might attract more riders to offset the missed fares at the interim Keystone stops anyway!
I tracked down some old PRR timetables and I have even better news. If the NY and Pittsburgh Subway is electrified and operational, this could slash travel time from 3hrs 14mins to 3hrs 1min, making stops at Harrisburg, Lancaster, Paoli, North Philadelphia, Newark, and New York Penn Station. In the interest of speed and since Trenton receives a high level of service already, Trenton will NOT be a stop at this time.
Your responses please.
I rode a diesel-powered (Reading FP-7's) train through the New York and Pittsburgh subway in August. I think the caterary is still in place; I'll have to check my video.
I rode a diesel-powered (Reading FP-7's) train through the New York and Pittsburgh subway in August.
That was June. Time flies when you're having fun. The catenary was still in place.
August was the SubTalk SEPTA excursion, the Riverview and Woodside 2-foot gauge, and the March-of-Dimes Redbird trip.
Sure, axe Trenton. While we're at it, axe Paoli too! Each has more than enough commuter service.
Since today is the 82nd anniversary of the wreck we should all take a moment out to remember the 97 passengers who died at the scene plus the scores of injured included the 7 who succumbed to their injuries in area hospitals.
May they REST IN PEACE.....
AMEN !
Good point.
May all the victims of that disaster rest in internal peace.
BMTman
Having finally recovered from a nasty episode of bronchitis, I realized we just had three anniversaries of historic events. Obviously, the 27th was the subway's 96th birthday. In addition:
October 29 was the eleventh anniversary of the 63rd Street Tunnel to Nowhere, and the introduction of subway service to Roosevelt Island. I recall a lot of Islanders protesting this service because of the 'bad element' it was sure to bring in. Of course, these were probably the same people who screamed for years that they were solely reliant on the Tramway or a roundabout bus trip to Queens Plaza in order to get off the Island.
It's funny how the youngest trackage in service seems to be shut down for construction half the time. To be fair, much of this might be because of the imminent connection to Queens Boulevard, or to readjust connections to 6th and 7th Avenues.
It looks like the connection will actually be ready in a couple of years, which means the dead end at Queensbridge will have stood for less than fifteen years. That's not half bad, considering the stub end at 57th and 6th lasted twenty-one years, and the actual river tunnel stood open for at least fifteen years before service began.
The station at Lexington and 63rd seems to have been accepted by people living in the East 60s as a West Side-bound alternative to the '6'. Unfortunately, it's such a job getting out of the station, and 'Q' service outside of the rush hour is so sparse, that it's not that attractive an option.
October 30 was the 46th anniversary of the connection of the Smith Street IND to the Culver El by way of the ramp through Mc Donald Avenue between Church and Ditmas. Other than the Smith-9th viaduct, this was the first 'IND el'; posession of the Liberty El would occur in 1956.
Many people think the Culver was ALWAYS the IND 6th Avenue line, and scoff when told it was originally a BMT line. In truth, it must have been a very slow trip all the way up Mc Donald Avenue, then along 37th Street, up 4th Avenue and into what was then a much more congested (4th Avenue, Culver, Brighton, West End, Sea Beach, via Bridge or Tunnel to Broadway or Nassau Loop) BMT corridor. Trains from six lines can barely squeeze through DeKalb NOW!
Today of course, the outdoor West End and Brighton lines host 'IND' lines, so the whole concept of separate IND and BMT divisions is pretty much blurred. Speaking of which, isn't the 33rd anniversary of Christie Street coming up this month?
[Speaking of which, isn't the 33rd anniversary of Christie Street coming up this month?]
Yup, November 26th.
I remember some of the newspaper accounts of the mass confusion during the days and weeks after it opened. Trains ending up on the bridge instead of in the tunnel, that sort of thing.
And Malbone Street is today.
11/01/2000
Does anybody know when they began construction on the 63rd St. connector ?
I'd like to know how many years this project has been going on.
Bill "Newkirk"
The connector began in 1994. I'm not sure what month. I think it's somewhere on the MTAs site. The actual 63 Street Tunnel bagan way before that.
running on...
Well, IIRC the first tunnel section under the East River was lowered in place in 1970.
Hello. I was a senior at Long Island City High School (the old location on 41st Ave) in 1976 when the tunnel was being built on the Queens side.
You're correct. The tubes were first lowered after being shipped he by barge from Maryland in 1970. Funny, it took them 19 ears to open this short tunnel, et only 4 years to open the IRT Joralemon St. tube, which was much longer.
If you used the 63rd. St tunnel as a barmeter for ow long a full 2nd Ave line would take to construct, I'd say it would be at least a century.
Lets call it a "water tunnel" and at the last moment change the name to 2nd Ave subway.
The water tunnel has been under construction for thiry years.
avid
I seem to recall that construction of the 63rd St. tunnel started while I was in college. I graduated in 1967.
-- Ed Sachs
Does anyone know when construction is to begin on the new LIRR Jamaica station and how long it will take to complete?
When the Bond Act is passed Nov 7th, it is part of the MTA 5 yr Captial Plan. Truth who knows if that monies are tied to the Bond Act or not.
This past Sunday I met a friend visiting from out of town in the Village and observed a couple of strange GOs. It was made clear that the 'N' from Queens would turn at Canal Street (although most signs still read Coney Island), as the conductor advised us of split 'N' service available at 34th Street that would run from Manhattan to Brooklyn like the 'B' and 'D'. When we got to Union Square, he recommended that those remaining who were continuing to Brooklyn should change for the '4' and '6'(!) to Pacific Street for connections to Brooklyn service. He repeated this several times.
My friend (from Seattle, yet!) wanted to see Yankee Stadium now that the madness was over, so we got the 'D' at West 4th. We came in on the local track at 59th to the announcement that we would run local, but the 'A' and 'C' would run express. A 'C' was pulling in across the platform, so we grabbed it. Other than a rare full-consist on the 'A' a few years ago, this was the first time I'd been up the CPW express in an overhauled R-32. Needless to say, it was much better than a 44 or 68; we completely left the 'D' in the dust BEFORE we got to 72nd. We continued express to 145th, and got back on the 'D' we left behind after a ten-minute wait.
It's not unusual to have a string of local stations closed in one direction due to construction- ride Queens Boulevard any weekend- but this made no sense. The net result was a reversal of 'C' and 'D' service, and a lot of 'C' riders who didn't hear repeated "EXPRESS- 125th next- 'D' TRAIN MAKING ALL LOCAL STOPS ACROSS THE PLATFORM" announcements were horrified when they found themselves speeding past their stops. There was no evidence of any track work at the merges below 59th (the dogleg through 7th/53rd feeds into both local and express tracks uptown at 59th) or Homeball Alley that would prevent any normal switching manuevers by 'C' or 'D'. Downtown service appeared normal; a 'D' passed us going downtown running express through 116th, and a 'C' was stopped at the downtown local track at 125th.
It was very bittersweet at the Stadium; snow, freezing cold, a lot of leftover police barriers, all the stores across River Avenue shuttered, a few people taking pictures. The ground level PR office facing Rupert Place was open for some reason.
Funny how quiet Steinbrenner's been about the never-ending station renovation and the seemingly permanent plywood barricades. Very off-putting for a World Series! I think the last time both escalators were in place was when Billy Martin was manager.
After '4'ing it back to the Village and parting ways, I tried to get an 'N', preferably a 32, over the Bridge, but after waiting at West 4th downtown for over a half hour and seeing only 'B's and 'D's go by, I gave up.
That first Sunday of standard time is always very depressing.
Perhaps there was work being done on the local tracks south of 59th on 8th.
-Hank
I think Hank hit it on the rail head. If they are working the interchange south of 59th so they line up the D for local and leave 8th ave as the express.
He sure did:
A C Uptown trains run express from Canal to 145 St.
E Uptown trains run express from Canal to 34 Sts
Weekend, 11 PM Fri to 5 AM Mon, Oct 27 to 30
Uptown D runs local from 59 to 135 Sts
A C Trains stop at West 4, 14, 34, 42, 59, and 125 Sts. E trains stop at West 4 and 14 Sts.
For service to Spring and 23 Sts, take an uptown A C or E to West 4 or 34 Sts and transfer to a downtown A C or E.
For uptown service from Spring, and 23 Sts, take a downtown A C or E to 14 or Canal Sts and transfer to an uptown A C or E.
For service to 50 St, take the E instead.
For uptown service from 50 St, take a downtown A C or E to 42 St and transfer to an uptown A or C.
For service to 72, 81, 86, 96, 103, 110, 116, and 135 Sts, transfer to the D at 59 or 125 Sts.
For uptown service from these stations, take the D to 125 or 145 Sts and transfer to the A or C.
Got that off the MTA site.
They could have used the crossover north of 59, but why cross the trains unecessarily? You still had the same service, and infact, with 10-car-length (8-car R68) D trains on the local, better than the 8-car C trains.
Whats the latest with this line and the clean up? Any further news about the 65st yard?
Just that NY&A along with the LIRR and NYC Dept of Sanitiation did such a great job, you wouldn't recognize the place anymore!
65th Street Yard is still in limbo, if you're referring to the use of the float bridges there? Otherwise it is just a storage/interchange yard with NY CrossHarbor RR.
BMTman
I tell you, now that the line has been cleaned up, you can actually see where the second track used to be!
- Lyle Goldman
...and the third and fourth tracks, too! :-)
There were FOUR tracks?
Oh yes ... back when it was electricfied & the NH ran trains along the line. Doug may be doing his walk along the line, I went with him last year. You'll see the four tracks for yourself.
When I went on the NY & Atl fan trip down that line someone had some copies from Winter 1997 "The Keystone" "Constructing The New York Connecting". It contains some detail & photos.
Bob Anderson's site may also have some detail. The BMTman had a map he got from him (we were using it to ID turnouts, etc. as we walked).
Mr t__:^)
There you go with those abbreviations again! What's the NH?
11/04/2000
[There you go with those abbreviations again! What's the NH? ]
New Haven Railroad.
Bill "Newkirk"
A.K.A. (also known as) NYNH&H (New York, New Haven and Hartford) :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
11/04/2000
[A.K.A. (also known as) NYNH&H (New York, New Haven and Hartford) :-)
True Mr. Mouse. The NYNH & H sort of reflected the old olive drab days and plain old NH reflected the McGinnis regime and that unique black, white and orange livery. Falling victim to PC (Penn Central), mating worms !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Lyle,
Your comment brings a smile to my face. I play a board game with some friends. It's called Rail Barron. You have to gain control of the railways in USA so the others have to pay to use your line to get from point A to B. I know where the lines go and what they're called much better then they do, but don't always win the game. I also added LIRR & CNJ to my copy of the game to fill the open space, but they'll only take the PENN, NYC or B&O to come East, and they don't like my Montauk destination.
(CNJ = Central RxR of NJ; B&O = Balt. & Ohio; NYC = NY Central; PENN = Penn RxR)(NH = NYNH&H/NY, New Haven & Hartford)
Mr t__:^)
Last week, while riding on an F train to lexington Ave., a funny thing happened which I'd never encountered before. The door chimes worked fine when the doors opened to the left (34th, 42nd, 47-50th, Lex), but at 5th Ave, where they open to the right, the door chimes didn't ding-dong.
I also heard one R-46 whose number I didn't catch whose chimes sounded G-E. Talk about a clash of sounds. Oi vey!!
That's not bad. I was n a D Train where 1 side worked fine but the other side chimed when it opened and was silent when it closed.
running on...
That one, I believe it was 2668 was due to a defective DRU relay.
5040 makes a strange chime, has anyone heard it?
(it is quite evident)
The R-46 door chimes are always malfunctioning. That's just their way of saying hello.
:)Andrew
I noticed that even the R-62/62A door chimes can be out of tune. My fillings are all still intact, luckily.:-)
The door chimes are sounded by an electronic black box module
in each car. There are two trigger circuits, one on each side
of the car. Each circuit runs in series through all of the
door operators on that side through the door fully open microswitch.
When the negative transition occurs from all doors fully open to
not all doors fully open, that edge trigger sets off the door
chime oscillator which is gated into the PA circuit. A defective
or mis-adjusted microswitch on one of the door panels can cause
this type of failure. I'm sure it will be caught and corrected
in the next inspection cycle.
The door chime oscillator is a simple analog circuit. I think
it is an LC discrete transistor design. Component drift can cause
it to be off key. The R142s use digitally-synthesized tones and
will never be off pitch!
Hey Jeff,
Thanks for your always informative and detailed responses. It's like going to school! I have one small comment which will more than likely get me flamed...I always thought those little things that went wrong with a train-the harmless ones-like an out of tune door chime gave the trains a little bit of character. The R142's using digital sounds take away that possibility. I realize that in the big picture, trains are for moving people and not for fun, but still, I for one will miss quite a few things when all of the rolling stock becomes R142-like.
Marc
I'm not saying the digital system can never fail, it just isn't
likely to fail in the same colorful off-key way that a simple
analog oscillator does.
Also, I'm sure eventually someone will crack into the on-board
computer system and download new and "improved" digital
announcements :)
I agree, the different tones can be quite interesting
I'm trying to resurrect all of that valuable stuff from electronics school.:-) You would think the pitch was adjustable, by varying resistance in the circuit.
I'm not sure of the actual circuit inside the black box.
When I was with the TA in the department that worries about
things like door chimes, I tried to investigate what was
causing these failures (at the time on fairly-new R62A cars)
but I was told that it was a "vendor issue" under warranty.
I would imagine that the pitch is adjusted by some sort of
variable resistor, capacitor or inductor and then the adjustment
is sealed to prevent drift from vibration.
SOUR bells, SOUR bells, R46 chimes in the city...
Hear them ping, hear them ding, dissonance filling the air....
(with apologies to "Silver Bells")
#6119 wins the prize hands down. SOUR SOUR SOUR!!!
wayne
I have added 4 more "4" wreck photos for a total of 8....MORE to come.
UGLY...VERY...UGLY
Peace,
ANDEE
Ouchy-oochy!!!
TIN.
No match for a BMT standard, that's for sure.
Thanks for posting the pics...
Scary...
You are quite welcome
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee- the #1 picture - which one is that with the nose all scrunched up?
I STILL think that the downgrade had SOME effect on the way that car broke in two.
wayne
Sorry, Wayne I do not know what car that is. I do believe it to be the train that was hit. Will try to find out.
Peace,
ANDEE
SUBWAYSURF:
Kudos for the good photos of the wreck of the #4 train. Car No. 1369 looked like the jolly green giant sat on it. I can safely assume that car No. 1369 is a total loss. Thank god that no one was in that car at the time of the accident.
BMTJeff
And thank you for posting these photos.
The looks from the pictures suggest that the train was being driven pretty fast, I think this car would still be intact if the t/a did"nt mess with the coupling system that came with these cars. I came to that conclusion because, had the r62 had it's origanal couplers. The train or the subway cars may have just jumped off or had been knocked off the tracks. I'm still glad there were no passengers on none of these trains, I hope the t/o that was driving that train gets well soon.
A wrong assumption. The same thing would have happened. Subway car couplers (and for that matter, passenger car couplers) are designed so that they don't disconnect in a collision, unless it is particularly violent. Notice that the cars did not derail, and they were sill in a straight line. If the train cars had buckled sideways, or come uncoupled, they would have blocked the adjacent tracks, and made a bigger mess, possibly causing a secondary collision with a train that was in service.
-Hank
The link bars of 2805 and 2807 involved in the DeKalb Avenue derail were torn off one car but remained intact to the other.
running on...
Speaking of which - how are those two R68's doing - has CI elected to repair them? It looked like there was some serious end damage to #2807 (at about the anticlimber level) and somewhat lesser damage to #2805.
wayne
The last word that I got was that Coney Island Mtce. Shop got the 2 DeKalb Ave R-68s back from the overhaul shop. The two R-68As from Concourse yard are still out of service. As for this, most recent incident, looks like 3 cars will be scrapped. 1369 is definite. 1370 is extremely likely as is 1368.
I can't see how they could ever fix #1369 as her frame is compromised. If you get word on the disposition of #1368 and/or #1370, please pass it along. BTW - the car that got HIT - #1361, I think - how did that one make out?
thanks
wayne
The carbody obviously gave way at its weakest point - the center door. The floor structure would be stronger than that of the roof at that point, thus the body collapsed downward. Kudos to the wreck crew who got that thing straight enough to haul out of there. Speed may not have been as big a factor as one might think. The momentum of a 10 car train moving at even 5 miles per hour is immense. Hitting a fixed object of similar size with the brakes set is going to exert a tremendous force, since the law of conservation of momentum requires something to give. Over 700000 pounds going from 5mph to 0 in a fraction of a second releases a tremendous amount of energy into the stopped train. It wouldn't surprise me if other cars in both trains also have some less obvious damage in that area (cracks or small deformations) If the impact had occurred at higher speed the coefficient of friction of wheel to rail might have been overcome and the stopped train pushed a considerable distance.
Gerry
Would the downgrade have worsened this effect (looks like about a 5-degree slope southward at the accident site).
The R68 cars which crashed at DeKalb Avenue - the entire trainset back from the third car had its sides shivered and rippled by the impact; these are the minor deformations you describe.
wayne
The actual grade at the point of impact was 1.75%. Speculation is that the grade is a major contributing factor in explaining wht the 2nd car in the consist absorbed the bulk of the impact force.
To those with the inside information, a few questions:
1. How did the testing go with the type 8s over the past 2 weekends? Are they ready for revenue service again?
2. Earlier this fall it was mentioned that the T was ordering all new cars for the blue line, and adding new cars to the orange line, and that these orders would be placed by the end of the year. Is there any info on who will get this order, or what the design of the new cars will look like?
3. In addition, I saw an ad about the T increase on the subway, and one of the things mentioned that the increase would pay for is more new cars on the red line. Is this true, or did the T make a mistake?
My thanks in advance to whom ever has info. As always, as I find out Boston/New York info...I will certainly pass it along! -Nick
I'm not an "insider," but I have heard some information that will help answer your questions.
1. The T only did one weekend of testing on the Green Line's Riverside Branch, due to the heavy rain last weekend. They'll do it again this upcoming weekend... so the testing is not yet done.
2. The proposals for new rapid transit cars for the Blue Line and Orange Line are due later this month, so I suspect we won't see an award for a while yet. There is an option for converting Blue Line cars for use on the Orange Line if no vendor is interested in producing such a small order (20-some cars) for the Orange line; both lines' cars are the same width (111") but are of different lengths, such that eight Blue cars are the same length as six Orange cars.
3. I haven't heard anything about new Red Line cars, just Blue and Orange.
If I hear more, I'll pass it along.
The T only did one weekend of testing on the Green Line's Riverside Branch, due to the heavy rain last weekend. They'll do it again this upcoming weekend... so the testing is not yet done
Isn't the original problem with the Type 8's was that they couldn't brake properly when the tracks had leaves on them, or when they were wet or something like that? Wouldn't it make sense to test them in the rain? They'll be running in the rain during regular service anyway. Testing is supposed to show flaws in less than perfect conditions, right?
I think there biggest problem was that the center trucks were de-railing on switches & curves.
Mr t__:^)
You're right in part, but heavy rain doesn't cause slip/slide problems. It's when there's a fine mist that makes the leaves "greasy."
But I'm not involved with the testing, nor the plans, so I can only speculate.
A report at the BSRA meeting on Saturday night indicated that they found three possible causes for the derailments, one of which was excessive sway in the Type 7 car coupled on. The testing created possible causes but didn't reveal any quick-fix solutions. I was tending to various duties and didn't get the whole story from Johnathan Belcher.
As for the Red Line - they are expecting to get about 10 more years out of the aluminum 01500s and 01600s, presently the oldest in the fleet, marking them for retirement at about age 40. The cor-ten 01700s, which train with the older cars, probably will be retired soon afterwards since they will be too small a fleet to keep by themselves.
Gerry
This is hot off Eastern Rail News.
PARTIAL SOUTHERN TIER SALE IN THE WORKS...
Well after much rumor and speculation, it appears that there was some truth behind the line sale rumors. The inspection trip operated by Metro-North this past weekend did so to inspect the line from Suffern to Port Jervis, New York. Norfolk Southern has admitted to New York officials that they have been discussing the sale of the eastern portion of the Southern Tier to Metro-North. According to NY Department of Transportation official Steve Slavick, that sale, if completed, could extend to Binghamton, New York, giving MNCR right-of-way from Suffern to Binghamton, New York and opening up new passenger possibilities.
The Port Jervis crew base on Norfolk Southern is reportedly being abolished outright, with the 46G and 47G shifting southward also to the Lehigh Line, then north over the Reading Blue Mountain & Northern and on to Binghamton, New York, via Canadian Pacific. This move has not been confirmed by Norfolk Southern, however other railroad sources indicate that it should take place before the end of the year.
As of right now, Norfolk Southern does not appear to be interested in ridding the Binghamton to Buffalo, New York segment of the Tier, however Canadian Pacific has apparently approached NS on more than one occasion about purchasing the line.
With the financial state of Norfolk Southern, line sales are a way of generating quick profit and improving the 'bottom line'. A complete Southern Tier line sale would actually create undo competition by allowing another railroad into the Metropolitan New York area. By selling the line piecemeal or only segments, the continuity is breached and provides better opportunity for Norfolk Southern.
As late as Friday of last week, Canadian Pacific officials were meeting with Harrisburg Division personnel to discuss options for the Southern Tier. Rumors of BNSF involvement have been just that, rumors. BNSF people have been frequenting the railroad to establish more interline marketing agreements and more intermodal service across the slightly faster Penn Route.
Canadian Pacific would have no plans of tearing up the railroad and traffic levels would likely be higher under their ownership than the current levels. Between Binghamton and Buffalo, Canadian Pacific fields more trains than that of Norfolk Southern on a given day, making them a likely candidate for purchasing, if such a deal were to play out.
When more information becomes available about line sales and the fate of the Southern Tier, we will provide full coverage.
So they will run diesel trains to Binghamton? That from Hoboken? One hell of a long ride. The line is also very curvy,so they will run very slow. If they do run it will be only two or four trains a day.
Maybe on holidays they could run extra trains to the SUNY up there. Thus taking some load off of greyhound.
What you suggest could lead to significant changes. Thank you!
Isn t that the route of the old Erie that went to Buffalo and Chicago?
Yes sir-e Bob.
There are only four trains a day on weekends now. Two North/Two South and it takes a long time to get up to Port Jervis now.
This,hopefully, will be changing soon...The train in the morning is okay...but that 6:2something being the ONLY train back in the evening really really SUCKS...I bet if they put in a 5something train, and a 8something train coming bac, their Sat/Sun business would BOOM! As it now stands, on weekends I actually end up taking the [ugh!] BUS in....
Told Ya! Actually the local media was just at Tuxedo yesterday covering the announcement of a new parking lot there, when a An MTA official happened to slip that they will increasing service early next year to 24[!!!] trains a day,believe it or not..[uh..thats twelve trains in each direction....still...].Now as far as Binghamton is concerned, one of the local pipe dreams is to have to have NY State [and probably New Jersey...] sponsor, and Amtrak operate a thru train Hoboken-Buffalo, using the old Erie Limited route as much as possible [Possible/Probable stops: Suffern..Port....Downsville..Binghamton....Elmira/Corning..you get the idea...]..like I said a pipe dream of some advocacy groups...
OR they could even route it from Binghamton up thru Syracuse...THEN west..ah...dreams...
How about NY Penn-Scranton-Binghamton for Amtrak as NJT's ALPs can change voltage on the fly(see MidTOWN DIRECT) and it is rumored that the wire will be extended to Port Morris possibly for Amtrak to change locos from HHP-AEM7 to P42 or to add more service to Lake Hopatcong.
That might seem overextending on Metro-North's part. I mean, Binghamton is decidedly upstate, and in no way part of the metro New York, MTA service area.
Maybe it's time the state considered creating a passenger express train service statewide. Wouldn't it be cool if there were direct express service from Hicksville to Binghamton and beyond! Well, it's a nice dream.
:)Andrew
Remember this is NJ Transit that operates the line for Metro North. Would NJT go further into NY State just because MNRR buys the line??
Wouldn't they (NJT) demand much more money from MNRR to run the service??
Well, if we just eliminated one or two of the subway lines in New York, we'd have plenty of money for all kinds of trains running all over the state.
Seriously, the only way ANY of this make sense is if the state actually does put a couple of rail tracks on a new Tappan Zee, then curve it down onto the Hudson Line somehow (tunnel?). In that case, MN could electrify part of the line and/or run dual modes (if they stop burning) to Grand Central. The logical use is park-n-ride, since housing is too spread out in Rockland/Orange for a walk-to-train. New highway exits, parking lots and stations could be built where rail and major road cross.
Such tracks could be used for freight as well if the bridge were strong enough, cutting the time required to go through Selkirk. Cheaper than the cross-harbor tunnel.
Well, the Middletown station IS close to the NY17[soon to be I86..]-NY211 interchange..and Harriman is pretty close to to the Thruway-17 interchange.....All the other stations are pretty much out in the boonies..in fact, in the local papers Classified section, they print a real estate map,with all the MN stations marked.....And, yes,something HAS to be done regarding the MN-NJT mess....It is all to clear that NJT don't give a squat about the MN service..lately they've been exiling all the Port trains wayyyyy out to Track 17 at Hoboken...as if they are trying to give MN a hint....
And here I thought it was to make it more convenient to the ferry riders.
It is all to clear that NJT don't give a squat about the MN service..lately they've been exiling all the Port trains wayyyyy out to Track 17 at Hoboken...as if they are trying to give MN a hint.
And here I thought it was to make it more convenient to the ferry riders.
I recall a RR bridge at either Kingston or Pougkipsie, Is either to far north for use?
avid
It's at Pougkipsie and it is a big national engineering landmark. If they placed it in service traffic could be routed off the Southern Tier Line (around Maybrook I think) and into NYC via the Harlem or Hudson lines. No matter what MN does there will still room for plenty of freight on the Tier and rehabbing the bridge could encourage NS to put some through freights back on the line.
I just knew I could depend on a savvy dude like yourself to come through.
Is the bridge single or double track? I bet the view would be great looking up or down the Hudson river. Perhaps a field trip,photo shoot?
About 17 years ago, some local developer wanted to turn the rr bridge at Poughkeepsie into a grandiose retail & residential development. Obviously, it went nowhere, but it was a pretty cool idea.
Anyone have any pix of the Poughkeepsie bridge? In former years and present.
Please advise where to locate.
avid
Well, a Google search came up with a few hits.
Try these two sites for starters:
http://www.walkway.org/ (seems to have just one picture)
http://www.marist.edu/summerscholars/95/pok-hrrb.htm (several pictures, historic and present day)
The Poughkeepsie bridge has been out of service since a fire on 8 May 1974. The bridge could have been rehabilitated at that point in time but Penn Central didn't have the money. The right of way on the Highland side of the bridge (west side) is largely gone, and it's disappearing quickly on the Poughkeepsie side now as well. 26+ years of no maintenance (following 20 or more years of minimal maintenance) have taken its toll. Double stacks would have significant problems on the right of way even if it was intact. But it's a magnificent structure.
Here are two postcard views:
Early Postcard
Later Postcard
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well NYC proper isn't a big intermodal terminal. The bridge could be useful for moving NY City bound freight into the city without resorting to the Cross Harbour. They could bring it down the Harlem Line and then onto that connetion I keep hearing about to OAK interlocking (SS3) on the New York Connecting Railroad and then via the NYCRR to Long Island and Booklyn.
But you'd have to recreate about 35 miles of ROW that simply isn't there any more - not very practical at this point. It's a shame it wasn't preserved.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought the route was RoW was still intact as like a path or trail or scar accross the landscape. Has it been built over?
Much of it, yes, especially on the Highland side. Road construction projects have removed much of it on the Poughkeepsie side, especially about five miles east where it crosses NY 55.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Almost brings tears to yer eyes, what a wasted asset!
Great post cards!
avid
Glad you enjoyed the cards. One of these days I'll scan some more from my collection (I have a dozen or so) and put them out there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
KYW news radio reported at 4:02 this afternoon in a regular "traffic and transit on the 2's" segment that trolley service was suspended on routes 101 (Media) and 102 (Sharon Hill) because of a derailment at Drexel Hill Junction. Nothing further was said at the time, and I found nothing on SEPTA's or KYW's website.
Railpace reports that NJT posted to their "Hot News" that buses are no longer substituting for trolleys after 8:20 PM Monday through Thursday on the Newark City Subway. However, they are still substituting after 8:20 PM Friday and all day Sat and Sun.
As sort of a post-World Series story, this was on his little syndicated radio commentary this morning -- Olberman said his Fox Sports colleague, Ron Darling, told him he would ride the No. 7 train to Shea all the time, but in order to keep from getting noticed he would make sure he boraded at the front door of the first car, and if there were more than just a few people in the car, he would then go to the front window and look out of it all the way to Shea in order to keep his face hidden as much as possible so no one would bother him.
Keith needs to ask Ron what stragtegy he would advise any future Mets player to use once the R-62s with the full-width cabs start arriving on the Flushing Line.
Could someone explain the pros and cons, if any, behind the Transportation Bond Act? How will affect the commuters and passengers of NYC?
Train#1886Mike
According to the Straphanger's Campaign, it would greatly benefit us. According to the AAA, it would cause problems. It is supposed to provide for lots of much-needed transit projects, but the AAA seems to worry that other agencies may raid it. What do you guys think? Should we vote for it?
- Lyle Goldman
Yes vote for it. We could finally resume construction on a full length 2nd ave. subway. But the only con would be that the MTA debt would grow by 3.8 billion dollars.
There are some problems with it. The exact wording of the act has the money to go to the MTA Capital Plan not actual projects within the plan. Yes the Capital Plan contains money for the 2nd Ave Subway and the East Side connector but what happens if the MTA decides to take the bond money and use it on some projects and not others??
Also remember the state is borrowing MONEY once more. This means when you ride in those brand new R143 cars (they are in the 5 year plan) you won't pay them off for over 20 years. You will still be paying for those cars even when they are long gone from service because of age.
I'm thinking on voting NO and not leaving more debt to my children.
This sounds awfully famillure to a certain problem that happend oh so many years ago,and I bellieve it involved the same same subway line. IF the MTA realy wanted to build the 2 ND Avenue line,it could have been built oover 40 years ago while the cost was around 500 million with connnections and extentions.As of today,the cost is more like 5 Billion for a full length route WITHOUT the extentions. WE HAVE PAID FOR THIS SO-CALLED NEW LINE 3 TIMES ALREADy!!!!!!
The Transportation Bond Act is an integral part of the MTA 5-year Capital Plan. Without it the Capital Plan hasto be shredded, and millions of dollars more more wasted to redo it.
I urge all of you to vote for the Transportation Infrastructure Bond Act. Here's why:
1. City riders currently subsidize suburban riders heavily. The Bond Act will help rectify that by allowing MTA to convert $1 billion in fare-backed bonds with the same amount in general obligation bonds, thus spreading the cost around the state (and making sure everyone who benefits pays a fair share
2. The phrase "I don't want to burden my grandchildren with debt" is not reasoned well. First, we have a first-class subway system because our grandparents allowed MTA to borrow money (which we are paying back). The MTA may not have built all the new lines we were promised, but it did rebuild the system and improve its operation a great deal. The Bond Act will allow MTA to borrow money to build New York City's first subway line which welcomes the elderly and the handicapped with elevators and ramps for its entire length, and which will take advantage of the 63rd Street line's bellmouth tunnels to provide uptown and downtown service on 2nd Avenue to passengers arriving from Queens and Roosevelt Island. Building the new subway will prevent the collapse of the "Lex" from crushloads and help maintain the functionality of Metro-North.
Since our grandkids will enjoy these benefits, it is very fair for them to help pay for it. The Return on Investment is outstanding. If we don't do this, they will curse previous generations for not doing something they needed
3. Yes, the Second Av subway could have been built in the 1970's for $500 million. But rather than cry over spilled milk, we can avoid repeating the mistakes our predecessors made, and make sure our grandkids don't have to spend 2X as much building the subway. LET'S GET ON WITH IT!
4. Studies by the Port Authority have proven that new transit lines increase property values and business activity, generate increased tax receipts, and help lower crime. Jamaica Center was an area that was a net tax consumer 15 years ago (drug dealers, empty lots, crime) and now boasts three agency headquarters, a new institute at York College, groundbreaking on a new shopping and entertainment/cinema complex, a $1 million flower market, and a new hotel planned to meet the coming of AirTrain in 2003. Roosevelt Island experienced a housing boom following the opening of the 63rd Street Extension. The increased tax collections offset borrowing, so the burden of the Bond Act will be reduced because we will better able to pay for it.
5. The subway makes New York the most energy-efficient city in the world. If we want to fight air pollution, reduce our dependence on foreign oil, and fight global warming, we need to expand the subway.
6. The Bond Act is very specific about which projects are funded. The MTA will not be able to divert the money to other uses. We must learn from the past, but let's not be paralyzed by it.
The Second Av subway and LIRR improvements are CRITICAL NECESSITIES, not luxuries. We need them now. We may not be 100% satisfied with the means available to pay for them, but in a democracy, some compromise is inevitable.
R. Aryel MD, MBA
Thank you very, very much. I hope we ALL will vote Yes.
- Lyle Goldman
(1. City riders currently subsidize suburban riders heavily. The Bond Act will help rectify that by allowing MTA to convert $1 billion in fare-backed bonds with the same amount in general obligation bonds, thus spreading the cost around the state (and making sure
everyone who benefits pays a fair share )
Currently, the State must jump through hoops to force City riders to subsidize suburban riders, because legally the NYCT and commuter rail financing is separate. But the current MTA plan will mix monies. In theory, this will allow the City to drain the suburbs. In practice? Don't believe me, check out the New York City Partnership website.
(2. The phrase "I don't want to burden my grandchildren with debt" is not reasoned well. First, we have a first-class subway system because our grandparents allowed MTA to borrow money (which we are paying back).
The decision as to what to invest in is different than the decision of how to finance it. Under the MTA plan, WE ARE REFINANCING BILLIONS IN DEBT (IE NOT PAYING IT OFF) FOR INVESTMENTS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN MADE! Let them pay off those debt and use THAT $10 billion for the Second Avenue Subway.
(3. LET'S GET ON WITH IT! )
All we get is another fucking study!
(4. Studies by the Port Authority have proven that new transit lines increase property values and business activity, generate increased tax receipts, and help lower crime.)
Studies do none of those things! They just increase the profits of well connected consultants!
(6. The Bond Act is very specific about which projects are funded. The MTA will not be able to divert the money to other uses. We must learn from the past, but let's not be paralyzed by it. )
That's too bad. I had hoped that some of the $700 million would go for construction, not studies. But let's be clear. The act assigns a certain amount to the MTA capital plan. It doesn't say for what. Cost over-runs for the LIRR to GCT will likely absorb any subway money. Read it yourself in the voting booth.
(R. Aryel MD)
The main reason we haven't invested in infrastructure over 30 years is because New York State and City spent so much more on health care than anywhere else -- 2.5 percent of all the income of City residents is collected in state and local taxes and spent on Medicaid alone, compared with the national average or 1.0 percent. See all those new hospital buildings from the 1980s and 1990s. There is the most recent reason we haven't built the Second Avenue Subway -- the political power of the non-profiteers.
Thoughtful remarks ... but,
[3. Yes, the Second Av subway could have been built ... LET'S GET ON WITH IT!]
Another STUDY isn't going to help. How many studys do they need. Seems more like they are paying off some consultant friends. Why don't then just start bulding parts that have already been studied to death (how about connecting the dotts ... the pieces already in place)
[6. The Bond Act is very specific about which projects are funded. The MTA will not be able to divert the money to other uses. We must learn from the past, but let's not be paralyzed by it.]
I'm coming more around to Larry's opinion, i.e. George won't give them the money then need to operate & do preventive maint., so they're going to borrow and once then get the money use it for what ever current need they have, i.e. no new construction, well maybe the LIRR connection to Grand Central will get finished.
You may recall that it was George that cut money out of the MTA budget in Albany, now the Farebox/Turnstile has to pay for more of the MTA costs. Maybe if the financial situation gets bad enough the people in NYC will wake up and bring George to task ! Maybe it's time to give the MTA back to the City. Let the mayor beg for cash from the suburbs if they want M-N & LIRR improvements, let the City folks finance improvements they want. George's problem is that he's still sucking his thumb because he didn't get to be Bush's running mate.
Mr t__:^)
...Seems more like they are paying off some consultant friends...
As a consultant, I assure you the Department of City Planning are not our friends :). The awful truth is that the City Environmental Quality Review process makes any construction project larger than a single, low to moderate height building virtually impossible to build, unless you're Donald Trump. Had the CEQR guidelines been in place during the planning stages of the Archer Avenue subway or 63rd Street tunnel, they would probably still be in review; Battery Park City would never have been approved because of its impact on marine life in the Hudson. The Whitehall Ferry Terminal is finally under construction, nine years after the DEIS was filed. We had a guest speaker from the MTA in one of my classes, in 1998 or 1999, who speculated that the review process for the Second Avenue subway would take a minimum of 18 years. I don't know if this was a widely accepted estimate, an educated guess, or a number he pulled out of the air, but I would tend to believe it, since the DEIS on the MTA website has to be reviewed by 162 agencies, companies, and individuals. As far as more studies go, all the "hard work" was done for the DEIS (Draft environmental impact statement). The FEIS (Final) will address comments on the DEIS by the aforementioned reviewing agencies and not contain much new information.
(As a consultant, I assure you the Department of City Planning are not our friends)
As a staff member of the Department of City Planning, I assure you that CEQR is not our friend either. It is an outrage that something that is ipso facto environmentally beneficial is tied up in red tape. If it were up to me, the redevelopment of previously developed land, and capital improvments in already-developed areas, would be exempt from CEQR. Let's limit environmental review to suburban sprawl. Better yet, let's repeal the damn thing. Never get it past the lawyers, consultants, and other members of the "process lobby," however.
Note that when they actually wanted to build something -- the added lanes on the LIE in Suffolk -- the state legislature specifically exempted that project from SEQR. Could have done it for transit as well, if they were serious.
[Note that when they actually wanted to build something -- the added lanes on the LIE in Suffolk -- the state legislature specifically exempted that project from SEQR. Could have done it for transit as
well, if they were serious.]
I guess the key here is do they WANT to build it ?
I don't understand the need for all these studies either, I mean it's going to be burried out of sight & result is less polution & a healther NYC (financial wise), so what's the problem ... no ground water source, no wild life, no disruption to neighaborhoods (after the thing is built), the device that will move folks doesn't polute ... I could go on.
Just seems like some kind of boon dogle, like all those barriers on the parkways ... the funnyest one was put up to protect the rail yard for all that auto noise ... give me a break !
Mr t__:^)
The environmental reviews have nothing to do with the environment, they're there to get NIMBYs and others another way of stopping projects.
Look at Westway. Do you seriously think that all of those people even gave a damn about fish? Except for the dead ones they order in the restaurant.
Larry: I didn't mean any offense by the "not our friends" comment; I'm sure you didn't write the manual :). It's funny, your views seem totally contrary to the mission of DCP. I hope you personally review a lot of EASes, so things can be built!
The "environment" implied in the title refers to the areas that would be affected by the project, not the global ecology. The problem with a study of this magnitude is that it will affect transportaion patterns citywide. The study area for the DEIS is almost all of Manhattan below 59th Street and everything east of Fifth Avenue above 59th Street. No one can argue that the subway line won't be beneficial, but it has to be objectively proven that the benefits will outweigh any negative impact on the study area, which is why they'll be breaking ground when I retire.
As for the HOV lanes being exempted, that's outside of New York City; I believe SEQR regulations aren't as stringent as CEQR (I could be wrong). HOVs are also an entirely different case, because the FHWA and EPA like them so much. Their existence may even result in the state getting more federal highway money. But don't get me started on HOV lanes... :)
(I didn't mean any offense by the "not our friends" comment; I'm sure you didn't write the manual :). It's funny, your views
seem totally contrary to the mission of DCP. I hope you personally review a lot of EASes, so things can be built!)
No, but I write (the socio-economics and land use chapters of) a few. Their main effect is to kill the trees. Just my share of the targeted EIS for the Unified Bulk Program was hundreds of pages.
SEQR and CEQR are invitations to litigation. At least if you have zoning in place, a builder can build pursuant to zoning without years of process followed by years of litigation. There is no equivalent for public works. If nothing else, the MTA should be able to pass a "plan" which, once approved, requires no further review process. Projects could just go ahead when funded. Actually having a plan wouldn't be such a bad thing.
As someone who does not have air conditioning in my house or my car (which I seldom drive) on environmental grounds, I can say as an environmentalist that he environmental review process -- and most people who claim to be environmentalists -- are disgusting.
(It's funny, your views seem totally contrary to the mission of DCP.)
Everyone at DCP knows the environmental review process is shit, but we can't change it because too many NIMBY nuts and litigators have a stake in the process. With a change of administration, however, those DCP staff who see nothing wrong (and a lot right) with environmental review processes that go on for a decade might be back in power. Think twice before voting for Mark Green.
Is it my imagiation or did the PA "JFK Express" project seem to get approved with construction underway in record time ?
I know someone who works for the PA who is involved with a lot of long range planning ... maybe they got their ducks in a row BEFORE they announced that they were going to do it ?
Mr t__:^)
(Is it my imagiation or did the PA "JFK Express" project seem to get approved with construction underway in record time ?)
The did an EIS, but didn't spend years on it. The people who tried to stop it were working class Blacks, not middle-income or affluent Whites. There are still some people you can roll over. Better lawyers could have held it up for years.
Note that when they actually wanted to build something -- the added lanes on the LIE in Suffolk -- the state legislature specifically exempted that project from SEQR. Could have done it for transit as well, if they were serious.
Those extra lanes were HOV's, and therefore, from an environmental standpoint, and as Martha Stewart would say, a good thing. Not that anybody actually uses them, of course.
(Note that when they actually wanted to build something -- the added lanes on the LIE in Suffolk -- the state legislature specifically exempted that project from SEQR. Could have done it for transit as well, if they were serious.)
(Those extra lanes were HOV's, and therefore, from an environmental standpoint, and as Martha Stewart would say, a good thing. Not that anybody actually uses them, of course.)
If they could exempt an environmental failure like an HOV lane from SEQR, they could exempt an environmental success like the Second Avenue Subway.
If the city or state realy wanted to build the new subway lin[s],every avaible resorce would have been used to acomblish that fact.BUT,the real problem was,AND STILL IS TO THIS DAY, when ever a project is started,for some reason the funding runs out Way before its completed most often due to mismanagement of funds[too many people dippin their hands in the pot,and sending their kids to schoolor takin long vacations]see the whole 63rd street tunnel and subway line fiosco and prove me wrong!
Actually, the 63rd Street tunnel is not a good example. While the original line was never completed as intended due to New York City's financial collapse in the 1970's, what was built was well-engineered, and, in particular, the East River tunnel segments were put in place on budget and on-schedule. After the MTA's recovery (helped by the capital plans and "nuisance taxes" like on the phone bills), the 63rd Street connector project was built without significant disruption to subway service (part of the reason for the six year schedule)and is now complete and physically ready for service.
It's really easy to be cynical about everything, I know, but I like to give credit where it's due, and MTA did salvage something useful from the original line. I hope we can build on that...
(It's really easy to be cynical about everything, I know, but I like to give credit where it's due, and MTA did salvage something
useful from the original line. I hope we can build on that...)
Then support tolls on the free East River Bridge, a higher fare (to cover increases in wages) and higher productivity (OPTO, etc.), the dedication of all taxes on fuel and sales taxes on motor vehicles to transportation improvements, the dedication of all motor vehicle fees and fines to transportation improvments, etc.
Support savage cuts in state and local spending on the health care industry, right DOWN to -- can I even say it? -- 50 percent ABOVE the national average. Support a crackdown on contractors to get a better deal, and an exemption from environmental review for all state and local-funded mass transit projects. Support immediate design-build cotracts for the portion of the Second Avenue line everyone agrees with -- from 63rd Street north. Have the MTA and TA in-house staff lay out the rest of the route.
Bond issue? Forget it.
Thurston's point is quite valid. The MTA does respond more to "crisis" mode than anything else. However, this is not a reason to vote against the bond act, which would provide the excuse to kill the rail projects in the plan. A better response is to pass the Act, and then be proactive in dealing with the legislature and the governor, to let them know we don't want the system to deteriorate.
This is an election, you know. Vote for candidates more likely to support transit, and let's make sure at least one person in the top troika is from NYC, to prevent or at least reduce anti-NYC and anti-MTA monkey business in future budgets.
Lou, I see your point, but we really need that 2nd avenue subway to get rid of the congestion on Lexington Ave. It's really starting to get on my nerves.
I have to vote NO. I can't approve money for yet another study of the Second Ave. Subway. It's been studied to death! They say money to start construction. They already have a few blocks worth of holes uptown! So we get a few more holes with approval! I can't vote for this since they will bring the LIRR into GCT. Not that I'm against that idea as Penn Station has only 21 tracks which has to be shared by LIRR, NJT & AMTRAK. But let's first build a complete Second Ave. subway to take some of the strain off the Lex since we need the room there when all those extra LIRR people get on the 4/5/6 at Grand Central. Then in the Daily News, Pataki's state guy who is pushing the act said that the #7 line will get new cars. Excuse me, the new cars are ordered, coming in, and the #7 will get hand me downs! Ad then he said cars in the future. They'll be ordered if the act is approved or not!
[...they will bring the LIRR into GCT. Not that I'm against that idea as Penn Station has only 21 tracks which has to be shared by LIRR, NJT & AMTRAK. ]
I still don't really understand why would anyone spend $20B to benefit so few people. Wouldn't it make more sense to expand Penn Station, create a stop at 33rd and Park Avenue and expand service to Atlantic Avenue for those going Downtown Manhattan.
Arti
(I still don't really understand why would anyone spend $20B to benefit so few people.)
It's actually $2 billion ($20 billion is one estimate of the alleged cost of the Second Avenue). In any event, it should be cheaper. And New York City should get improvments also. BUT that connection IS important to Long Island and Eastern Queens. It will have an enormously positive effect on the housing market and quality of life in those areas.
[It's actually $2 billion ]
They spent $300 m during the last capital program. Current one calls for $1.5 b. Completion 2020, 3 more capital programs probably in tune of $2b each. Maybe $10 b.
[BUT that connection IS important to Long Island and Eastern Queens. It will have an enormously positive effect on the housing market and quality of life in those areas. ]
How could it be? Those people already have Manhattan access. If they were to build a stop on the east side for subway transfer East side would be accessable aswell. They could increase the capacity with better management expansion of Penn Station, Atlantic Avenue (Lower Manhattan workers). Maybe through service by NJT to Sunnyside stopping at Park Avenue providing ESA to NJ commuters. Maybe even joint service between LIRR and NJT from all the way to LI to NJ making Penn Station just a stop.
Arti
Maybe even joint service between LIRR and NJT from all the way to LI to NJ making Penn Station just a stop.
A nice idea, but... how are you going to address the serious capacity problem with the Hudson River tunnels?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[A nice idea, but... how are you going to address the serious capacity problem with the Hudson River tunnels? ]
I'd say NJ trains going through to serve LI routes.
Arti
Voting no on the Transportation Bond act is a step backwards, and will make solutions to the Manny B, 2nd ave subway, LIRR to GCT slower or improbable.
And voting yes will do the exact same thing except that it will put us in more debt.
NO MORE B.S. STUDIES!!! VOTE NO,Pay as you go, Don't waste tax dollars, Real fiscal conservatives know that bond interest is money flushed down the toilet THIRTY YEARS INTO THE FUTURE END BONDING for better government and TAX CUTS, We can have quality government services AND tax cuts if we don't send our tax dollars down the interest toilet. We might even get the 2nd. Ave. subway!
Setting aside for a moment your feelings about fiscal conservatives (and true fiscal conservatives are just as likely to run deficits as ersatz conservatives, usually by ill-advised tax-cuts aimed at the wealthy) - and I'm not saying I prefer the Bond Act over "pay as you go" financing, let's consider the reality: The political process this year has offered us only the Bond Act to get the subway done. Joe Bruno, the Senate Majority Leader, and his allies made sure that road projects got equal funding with rail transit in the budget, and the Bond Act was a required concession to get the transportation budget passed. We can only work with what we have.
As to the new subway: Your frustration about "more BS planning" is quite understandable. I too feel that frustration. It's true that the MTA has maintained two stretches of tunnel under 2nd Av from the 1970's construction. To utilize them, however, MTA would have to revert to "cut and cover" construction methods, which would be incredibly disruptive to the East Side. "Cut and cover" is obsolete anyway, with the new boring and blasting technologies available. To get a new subway built while minimizing environmental impacts and using modern, cost-effective engineering (thirty years newer than what had been used), MTA is justified in going back to the drawing board.
This time, though, let's all of us hold the agency accountable and press them to stick the shovels in the ground and get going. Like any other agency, once that process is underway, and a buraecratic constituency is built, there will be plenty of brass at headquarters whose careers will be made by this project - so the momentum will be there to get it done.
To learn more, contact the office of the Manhattan Borough President (C. Virginia Fields). Her office is at the municipal building, One Centre Street, 19th Floor South, New York 10007. There is also a website up (check Yahoo or another search engine to get there).
There's a fine line between healthy skepticism, and paralytic cynicism. Too much of the latter, and all of us might as well turn out the lights and give up.
(and true fiscal conservatives are just as likely to run deficits as ersatz conservatives, usually by ill-advised tax-cuts aimed at the wealthy)
No way. True fiscal conservatives when I was young advocated never having a deficit. The liberals called for deficit spending to spend our way out of recessions and pay it back during the ensuing period of prosperity.
Interest payments on government debt are TAXES paid by our government to the wealthy and big business (Our class enemies) Pataki and the right wing Republicans(Not conservatives) would rather see your money go to these fatcats than see it go tothose who need it or a targeted tax cut for lower incomes. actually, state capital needs should be funded by the federal government, to be repaid interest free over time -- this is how corporate conglomerates do it, financing by the parent company, one of the main reasons they are so efficent and powerful. VOTE NO! NO! NO!
[Interest payments on government debt are TAXES paid by our government to the wealthy and big business ]
..or pension funds.
Arti
Because we have a progressive income tax system, tax cuts invariably affect the rich more than the poor. It is politically difficult to pass tax cuts affecting only the poor.
Interest payments are paid by all of us for services we receive or infrastructure built for us. "Fat cats" provide an essential service (and employ millions of people) in ensuring that the MTA and other govt. agencies have access to capital markets. In a country such as the US, private industry provides these services. Are some people overpaid to do this? Possibly. Is some money wasted? Undoubtedly.
The alternatives: Countries where massive projects are built regardless of whether people need them, and fat cats who are govt. employees.
Or: a tax cut returning ten dollars to a poor person, thousands to a rich person, and cancelling a project the poor person needs a lot more than the rich person...
I know which way I'm voting...
The alternatives: Countries where massive projects are built regardless of whether people need them, and fat cats who are govt. employees.
You've just described NYC. Instead of grandiose public-works projects, the city has massive levels of health care spending that are far beyond what are actually needed, functioning instead as patronage machines. And you do have fat cats who work for the government, more precisely for government-subsidized health care and "nonprofit" organizations.
There's a fine line between healthy skepticism, and paralytic cynicism. Too much of the latter, and all of us might as well turn out the lights and give up.
I've already given up.
(This time, though, let's all of us hold the agency accountable and press them to stick the shovels in the ground and get going.)
How the hell are you going to do that. They are BORROWING to STUDY the Second Avenue Subway in a BOOM. Where do you think they will get the money to build it in the next recession, when teachers are being laid off, taxes are being increased, and the fare is going up in any event?
The state ought to be running big surpluses now (and real ones, not just rolling over a suplus they had two years ago and calling it a new surplus every year) and building up money for roads and rail. We've been had. Lets at least say no so we are not complicit in our own destruction.
Larry,
Indeed, they are borrowing to study in a boom. But they have to, because we're not going to build anything on the plans written thirty years ago. New technology allowing the least disruption to the communities can be utilized.
I can appreciate your cynicism, but let's put this in perspective: the Bond Act won't bankrupt anyone. First, a billion of it is actually relieving 6 million daily NYC transit patrons of exclusive responsibility for one set of bonds, and spreading the cost to a wider audience, making it more affordable for everyone. Second, the remaining 2.8 billion is one item (albeit, politically, a crucial one) in a 34 billion dollar transportation plan.
Kill the Bond, and you definitely kill the subway. There is no serious dissent in any of NYC's boroughs that the 2nd Av subway is a long-overdue necessity. Even most big businesses a strongly for it. The Governor received nearly 18,000 cards and letters from NYC residents demanding that the subway be built.
Highway projects in the plan are receiving funds from a variety of sources, and have significant non-NYC support, so they are going to get done regardless of what happens to the Bond Act. But Joe Bruno (who basically controls the State Senate - you didn't think the Senate was a democracy, did you?) has clearly communicated that the rail projects depend on the Bond Act. This is why it is so important for all of us in the city to band together and remove any excuse to not build it.
The MTA is like any other bureaucracy. If you can get it to finish engineering and start building (and yes, all of us can do that), then among its bureaucrats and technocrats will be people whose career advancement will depend on getting the subway done(read: major project/empire building etc. etc.). We can take advantage of that.
If we reject the package handed us by the legislature (and they have not given us other options to choose from), then NYC's most critical projects won't get done, and we will be to blame for the resulting problems with commuting, its econpomic decline, and employer reluctanceto continue reinvesting here.
(Kill the Bond, and you definitely kill the subway.)
I do not agree with that. Neither do I agree that passing the bond ensures the subway. It would take a major change in political priorities to get significant transportation improvments built. With such a change, improvements are possible. Without such a change, improvements are not possible.
While I stand by my assertion, I strongly agree with Larry's assertion that the subway must be a political priority to get done. To become a political priority, all of us must demand action from our elected officials - and not give up until we get it.
(While I stand by my assertion, I strongly agree with Larry's assertion that the subway must be a political priority to get done.
To become a political priority, all of us must demand action from our elected officials - and not give up until we get it.)
You can do that without the bond. Note that in NJ, a bond issue is associated with law that will require all transportation taxes to go to roads and transit. New Jersey already spends more than us, proportionately, on these priorities. No such promise associated with this bond issue.
We are paying MTA taxes, that take the place of state transportation taxes, that are diverted to Democratic non-profit grants and Republican income tax cuts. We're screwed anyway. This is a $4.2 billion bond issue. But the MTA plans to issue $12 in bonds AT HIGHER INTEREST RATES to retire existing bonds from PAST CAPITAL PLANS, paying BIG FEES to do it. At least we can say no when we have the chance.
I do like what NJ is doing (and the tangible benefits that have been provided recently, like light rail).
Can we really accomplish that without a bond act? Theoretically yes - but remember that the Bond Act was a "take it or leave it" forced on us by upstate legislators, and a Republican Senate Majority Leader (can't get more anti-NYC than that). Your concerns about refinancing are valid, although I do not believe the financial impact will really reach the worst possible scenario.
It is my understanding that the language of the Bond Act is quite specific in allocating money for rail projects, and so a diversion of funds wouldbe quite difficult.
Since NYC alone cannot afford to build a major, full-length subway, how do we get Albany to go along? Your proposed solutions might be the best, but are they do-able? As a modification of an old expression goes, sometimes a good solution executed decisively today is better than the perfect solution next year (esp. if you can't get enough votes in the Senate or the Governor's signature for it).
(Since NYC alone cannot afford to build a major, full-length subway, how do we get Albany to go along? Your proposed
solutions might be the best, but are they do-able? As a modification of an old expression goes, sometimes a good solution
executed decisively today is better than the perfect solution next year (esp. if you can't get enough votes in the Senate or the
Governor's signature for it).)
How does everyone else do it? Look back at the archives, you'll see a "Shame -- Let's Make a List" thread, in which your webmaster alone listed a zillion new rail lines/extensions in the 1990s during which time NYC built -- nothing. As for the roads, New Yorks are among the worst in the U.S. They are making a big deal out of I-86. All that is is creating the few additional sections of grade-separated highway along a stretch of road hundreds of miles long -- on land NYS DOT has owned since the 1960s! You'd think they could just reduce the extent to which contractors get graft for a couple of years and build it with the excess!
Your disgust at the roads is appropriate - the roads are there because "if you want the subway, we get ---" - clearly a pork issue.
As to your other objections - I admit, I don't have great answers. If you and I ran the world, maybe things would be different. But the legislature and the Governor have implied that No Bond Act = No Political Mandate for Subway. I don't want to hand them that victory.
Don't we need a full-length Second Aveuue subway for the East Side? Don't we need new clean-air buses and new rail cars? Don't we need to rehabilitate subway stations already in use? Don't we need to shapen things up in this system to make it better for all of us? Vote yes for the bond act. Where else would we get the funding and reap the benefits later on? Besides, those "rustbirds" and RTS's from the 80s are getting on my nerves, falling apart like that.
Contact me for a brief talk.
Amen to that.
[To utilize them, however, MTA would have to revert to "cut and cover"
construction methods, which would be incredibly disruptive to the East Side. "Cut and cover" is obsolete anyway, with the new boring and blasting technologies available. To get a new subway built
while minimizing environmental impacts and using modern, cost-effective engineering (thirty years newer than what had been used), MTA is justified in going back to the drawing board.]
If they do that the tubes are going to be deep, i.e. elevators & esclators required at every station. Also we get lower in the water table (drip drip drip). AND aren't the new methods more expensive ?
Maybe the existing pieces don't amount to enough to be kept, but I'm sure there is going to be a loud outcry from the public when the MTA says the FIRST part of the job is to fill in the existing holes.
Just think in five years they fill in the holes, the economy turns & nothing happens for another 20 years ... sounds like we're going backwards ?
I would rather see cut & cover the uptown portion NOW before more studies downtown ... if it passes (without my vote) I'll write my state rep. to attach some strings to the check and require something visable ... how about "progress payments" the MTA starts some CONSTRUCTION and then they get some of the money ?
Mr t__:^)
As it was presented, the TA plans to use deep tunneling in the hard rock of the Upper East Side. It has to in order to build the interchange with the 63rd St line. Up in East Harlem, it plans to use cut and cover. No word on the southern extension of the line, as this was not in the MTA's original plans.
[If they do that the tubes are going to be deep, i.e. elevators & esclators required at every station. Also we get lower in the water table (drip drip drip). AND aren't the new methods more expensive ? ]
Tunnel boring is cheaper than cut and cover, especially in Manhattan (think of all the documented and undocumented utility lines) As for stations, they could build the stations using cut and cover and the inbetween using boring.
Arti
As for stations, they could build the stations using cut and cover and the inbetween using boring.
That's not exciting!
If Bush wins, it sure is a good thing we voted down that bond. We'd have borrowed $4.2 billion, built a bunch of roads Upstate, studied the Second Avenue Subway. Than George P would have told Hillary to get Trent Lott and George W to actually pay to build the thing. And that would have been that.
If Bush wins, it sure is a good thing we voted down that bond. We'd have borrowed $4.2 billion, built a bunch of roads Upstate, studied the Second Avenue Subway. Than George P would have told Hillary to get Trent Lott and George W to actually pay to build the thing. And that would have been that.
It's interesting to note that Upstate voters rejected the Act by a sizeable margin, even though they probably would have gotten some roads out of it. Most city voters, in contrast, supported the Act even though all but the most naive of them probably knew that they'd get nothing except a bunch of studies.
I've lived upstate in Central New York for five years. Other than in the city of Syracuse, I've found that Republicans outnumber Democrats around these parts by a fair margin. Not the right-wing type of Republicans, mind you, but frugal people nonetheless. There is also an undercurrent of distrust about downstate - the realization that NYC-area politicians run Albany, and that upstate is forgotten except at election time.
Both of these attitudes, I believe, played into the defeat of the Transportation Bond Act. The idea of NY State taking on a huge addition to its already staggering debt load goes directly against the frugal nature of many upstate voters. And political ads opposing the bond act played up the New York City theme big time - one group (I believe it was the Conservative Party) ran a series of TV ads showing grainy images of NYC subway trains with the tag line "What does a new Manhattan subway cost?" - clearly implying that the majority of the money would be spent on such downstate projects. By comparison, the ads run by bond act supporters were weak - the only specific projects mentioned in the Syracuse area TV and radio ads were for work on Route 281 and two bridges over the Seneca River, roads that nobody really cares about.
- Jim (RailBus)
NO MORE B.S. STUDIES!!! VOTE NO,Pay as you go, Don't waste tax dollars, Real fiscal conservatives know that bond interest is money flushed down the toilet THIRTY YEARS INTO THE FUTURE END BONDING for better government and TAX CUTS, We can have quality government services AND tax cuts if we don't send our tax dollars down the interest toilet. We might even get the 2nd. Ave. subway!
Ah, if it only were so simple. Your assessment of these bond fiascos is correct. But it sadly is not realistic to assume that there will be transportation improvements, the Second Avenue subway among them, if we can reduce interest payments. The city and state will just waste the money elsewhere, mainly on unnecessary health care spending and on raises for already overpaid (and frequently redundant) government workers.
I am convinced that the Second Avenue subway will become a reality only if one of two things happens:
1) The wealthy people on the Upper East Side, who of course will benefit mightily if the subway starts running, start using some of their political and economic muscle to demand that the subway be built. They've been strangely quiet so far. I don't know why; it could be the reluctance among some rich people, especially the "Old Money" rich as found on the UES, to throw their weight around.
2) NYC goes into municipal bankruptcy - hey, it nearly did 25 years ago - and a bankruptcy control panel takes over city finances. Such a panel can wield near-dictatorial powers, and if we're lucky it will be comprised of anti-New York and anti-urban Sunbelt types. They might then launch on what bascially will be a massacre of city spending, with huge program cuts and massive employee "re-engineering." New York would emerge as a city for hardworking people, not lazy schmucks and losers, and there'd be plenty of money, even after huge tax cuts, for transit improvements.
Needless to say, there's not much chance of either of these things happening.
Peter,
I'm afraid you and Mr. Blair have fallen a little short in your bond analysis. Interest on bonds is a necessity to provide the cash needed to build infrastructure in a timely and cost-effective manner.
There are many things you can do with bond money, some of it certainly wasteful. And incompetence in govt. is a constant factor (and, sadly, I've seen that first hand).
However, $30 billion, some of it in bond money, has restored the NYC transit system to a state of function good enough to see ridership surge in the last few years. Not everything was done exactly asintended or promised, but the restoration is an accomplishment beyond debate.
Just as you can't always buy a house without obtaining a mortgage, NYC can't build subways without doing some borrowing. And lest you suggest that your borrowing money to buy your own house doesn't affect your neighbor, please note that your loan, could, after all, have been given to somebody else. If you squander the money buying a lemon, should that bar you forever from borrowing money again? If that were true, Milton Hershey, Ray Kroc and countless other people would never have accomplished what they did.
Of course there have been embarassing failures in the past. But to refuse an opportunity, and then complain afterwards is worse - you really can't have it both ways.
Vote NO.
New York State (and City) spend less than most other places on transportation, and have more debt. The $4.2 billion in debt is just part of a plan to borrow $35 billion, most of which is off the books public authority debt, and most of which will go for five years worth of routine replacement and maintenance. The state has basically cut off funding for these purposes with tax dollars, and is borrowing instead. How long can that go on?
They have tried to link the Second Avenue subway to the bond act, but all we'd get out if it is more studies -- no construction at all. The Straphangers were outraged by this, as was the business community, but I guess they have decided to back the bond because they are sure the subways will be even worse off without it. The subways will be as bad as the politicians can get away with, bond act or no. I guarantee you, with all this debt already on the books in 2006 we won't be building the Second Avenue Subway. We will be cutting back on the maintenance of the existing system. There is nothing we can do about it, but at least we can veto part of the debt.
[The subways will be as bad as the politicians can get away with, bond
act or no. I guarantee you, with all this debt already on the books in 2006 we won't be building the Second Avenue Subway. We will be cutting back on the maintenance of the existing system. There is nothing we can do about it, but at least we can veto part of the debt.]
But how can we make Pataki and company more accountable to:
- What they are going to do with the money ?
- Why is the mind set that the State has little or no need to fund the MTA ?
There is talk, elsewhere on this board, about the impact of the NS abandoment of track & MTA purchase.
- Do we want the MTA to get any bigger ?
A bigger MTA should be a big item in the State budget because it's operation directly effects so much of the population, so why is this not true ?
It would seem the George P. & Tom G. are using the same play book, i.e. cut mass transit out of the budget because no one knows how to stop you from doing it & you get to balance your budget, so end up being a hero.
Mr t__:^)
(It would seem the George P. & Tom G. are using the same play book, i.e. cut mass transit out of the budget because no one knows how to stop you from doing it & you get to balance your budget, so end up being a hero.)
George P hasn't been doing so well by the roads, either. Highway spending is way down from what it was 10 years ago, adjusted for inflation. Commentors keep mentioning that the amount of money spent on roads is greater than the tolls and fuel taxes and fees on drivers. Not in New York -- the money is diverted to general spending. Debt is up. It's just one more way to sell out the future. New York, the fleece and flee state.
Last night in Rudy's call in show he was knocking the Transportation Bond Issue ... "the money in the bond for 2nd Ave sTubway is just for study & none of the money will be used for construction".
This is opposite to the "official" City position.
I may vote against it too.
Mr t__:^)
What is in it for Brooklyn?
Rebuild of Flatbush Ave LIRR?? That is for LonGilsngers. 2nd Ave? it is not coming anywhere Brooklyn. There is nothing in the bond act outside of new cars for Brooklyn.
(Last night in Rudy's call in show he was knocking the Transportation Bond Issue ... "the money in the bond for 2nd Ave sTubway is just for study & none of the money will be used for construction". This is opposite to the "official" City position. I may vote against it too.)
The politicians are getting nervous. Yes they want to borrow money and not build things to reward their friends, but with outrage growing, they don't want their fingerprints on the deed. Both of my state "representatives," in their taxpayer-funded propaganda, talked about "legitimate concerns" with the debt in the MTA capital plan and didn't endorse it, despite having voted for it.
They tried to pass a school construction bond, remember? Well, they've been building and repairing schools with tax dollars ever since it was voted down. Would more education spending have occurred if the bond had passed? I don't believe it. The borrowed money would have freed other money to be pissed away.
As ususal, thoughtful remarks which I can't find much that I disagree with. It's too bad, the system is good and could be made better & better if only the MTA pushed the politians ... oh that's right Virgal was hand picked by George.
Mr t__:^)
Why did so many people vote for Pataki in the first place? I mean, the first time, okay: we didn't know what we were getting into. But the second time? After four years, what did they expect? (And while we're on the subject, the exact same thing can be said about President Reagan, but I digress!). I hope that in the next gubernatorial election, we get the Democrat we deserve. In fact, if George W. Bush becomes President, I will seriously consider moving to Canada!
Just my two cents!
- Lyle Goldman
[In fact, if George W. Bush becomes President, I will seriously consider moving to Canada! ]
Do you have Canadian citizenship?
Arti
In fact, if George W. Bush becomes President, I will seriously consider moving to Canada!
I understand they're looking for people to move to Nunavut...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Why did so many people vote for Pataki in the first place? I mean, the first time, okay: we didn't know what we were getting into. But the second time?)
When it comes to screwing the future, Pataki is a lot like Cuomo. People voted for Pataki the second time (and Cuomo the second and third time) because the economy was up. As for the future, most Archie Bunker voters in the fleece and flee state are planning to cash in and move out before it arrives. The losers are Upstaters, who really want to stay (with their kids) in their commununities, and the young people and immigrants who are moving into NYC. Due to social issues, these idiots always voted Republican or Democrat respectively, and so get screwed.
When it comes to screwing the future, Pataki is a lot like Cuomo. People voted for Pataki the second time (and Cuomo the second and third time) because the economy was up. As for the future, most Archie Bunker voters in the fleece and flee state are planning to cash in and move out before it arrives. The losers are Upstaters, who really want to stay (with their kids) in their commununities, and the young people and immigrants who are moving into NYC. Due to social issues, these idiots always voted Republican or Democrat respectively, and so get screwed.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record (an analogy that's rapidly becoming obsolete), I hasten to point out that the Upstaters and the young people/immigrants in NYC have no one but themselves to blame. Voting in obedient fashion for one party only is just plain brainless. It doesn't matter whether that party is the Democratic or Republican. If voters learned to split their votes, they'd find themselves being courted by both parties and would end up having their interests given attention rather than being ignored.
Here is one voter who trys to vote intelligently.
- I watched the Pres. debates, but NOT the yada, yada before & after
- I watched two of Hillery & Rick's debates
- I'll vote, as will my wife (we many times cancel out each other vote, but that's OK) and most of my kids do too.
Mr t__:^)
I have some true facts and figures about the act taken from the NYS Senate office and posted at nyrail.cjb.net.
Dan
Thanks for providing that hyperlink. NYrail is a pretty website (and informative!). I appreciate the extra Bond Act details..
The CTA is pulling out all the stops to provide transportation for a mid morning rally and concert at Daly Plaza, in downtown Chicago, Thursday, Nov. 2. With parking banned downtown, major terminals will add 3 extra trains to day-time base service with eight car trains in place, except on the Brown and Green. Headways will be decreased from 10 down to 7 1/2 minutes. Topping the day off is a ban on all flagmen!!
So Thursday seems to be the day to see just how fast a day time ride can be.
David Harrison
Interesting; I didn't know about the rally, but I did notice the Blue Line running eight-car trains around noon. The Green Line only had 4-car trains running, of course.
Additional Bombardier R-142s were delivered to East 180th St Yard from Linden Yard this evening, consisting of South Brooklyn Railway Locomotive N1-RD331(ex R-14)-South Brooklyn Railway Locomotive N2-6335-34-33-32-31-NYCT Locomotive OL903.
That's all for now, but more should be on the way!
-Stef
How many cars have actually been delivered by Bombardier and Kawasaki?
When will the be running again ?
Thanks !!
Kawasaki - 7211-7270 = 60 Cars
Bombardier - 6301-6335 = 35 Cars
For a total of 95 Cars.
When will they come back into service? Who knows? As soon as they're finished making any modifications to the cars, they'll bring them back.
-Stef
What about that 7209 and 7210?
Jrf wanted to know when the 142/142A was coming back to service, and here it is:
The R-142 Train, 6311-20, in Yankee Pinstripes is in service on the 2 and is once again carrying passengers.
As a side note for Jrf, 7209 and 7210 are still in Yonkers, and perhaps It's That Flexible Metro knows if they're coming out of the plant anytime soon.
-STEF
An additional note: 7261-70 were sporting 6 train signage and were heading for some unknown location this evening (going south). I wonder if they were going to Westchester Yard?
-Stef
Yes. I actually got a ride on it yesterday and today. It runs on the same schedule just as 6301-6310 did.
Yup. As cars become available, they'll be phased into service.
-Stef
Yes. I actually got a ride on it yesterday and today. It runs on the same schedule just as 6301-6310 did.
Thanks, Stef.
I hope SubBus (Mike) read this post.
I'll certainly keep a sharp eye on any movements on the Bay Ridge Line near Linden Shops in the coming weeks.
BMTman
I am reading this post. I will keep a lookout myself over the upcoming weeks to see if anything will occur. I might drive over to Linden Yard to see if there anything going on over there.........
Train#1890Mike
I have to revise my statement and say that RD328 (R-14) was on the transfer from Linden Yard and not RD331 as originally stated. N1 and N2 went south this evening without OL903. If I knew of when they were coming, I could check them out at Oak Point Yard.
-Stef
Stef, SubBus: unfortunately, my contacts at NY&A can't give really good notice on when R-142 deliveries will occur. As it turns out those guys will get very short notice themselves (sometimes same-day) from MTA of when the cars will be coming down from Yonkers.
This whole affair will end up being a hit-and-miss situation. I would assume that the deliveries occur at Linden mid-day or in the evenings, as I've never seen any related movements while on my rush hour commutes.
BMTman
Aye. It would be unlikely to have any kind of movement during the rush as they're ready to come out of Linden Yard after the madness has subsided. I suspect that 6336-40 are not too far behind.
-Stef
I am reading this post. I will keep a lookout myself over the upcoming weeks to see if anything will occur. I might drive over to Linden Yard to see if there anything going on over there.........
Train#1890Mike
I have to revise my statement and say that RD328 (R-14) was on the transfer from Linden Yard and not RD331 as originally stated. N1 and N2 went south this evening without OL903. If I knew of when they were coming, I could check them out at Oak Point Yard.
-Stef
Stef, SubBus: unfortunately, my contacts at NY&A can't give really good notice on when R-142 deliveries will occur. As it turns out those guys will get very short notice themselves (sometimes same-day) from MTA of when the cars will be coming down from Yonkers.
This whole affair will end up being a hit-and-miss situation. I would assume that the deliveries occur at Linden mid-day or in the evenings, as I've never seen any related movements while on my rush hour commutes.
BMTman
Aye. It would be unlikely to have any kind of movement during the rush as they're ready to come out of Linden Yard after the madness has subsided. I suspect that 6336-40 are not too far behind.
-Stef
post #164887 has 2 links from post #164796
That's true. I wonder how that came about?
-Stef
Double-clicking the Post Message button will sometimes do that. Our UnKosher friend gave a demonstration a few thousand messages ago when the subject came up then.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
After the settlement of the strike, the LAMTA closed the fair boxes for five days and provided free rides. I usually drive into Los Angeles whenever I am going to the city, but on Friday, October 20th, I decided to try leaving the auto behind and commuting on public transit. I quickly found out that commuting and railfanning are two different things.
This was not a real rush hour commute because I was going to a 3:30 P.M. appointment and had to stop at the Federal Building to pick up documents before going to the appointment. I figured I would have plenty of time if I arrived at the Federal Building by 1:30 P.M.
I cheated a little by driving about two miles to the Norwalk Green Line Terminal Park n Ride. I arrived there at noon figuring that one and a half hours was plenty of time to travel the approximately 18 miles to the Federal Building.
I have a heart condition which precludes long walks and arthritic knees which make climbing and descending stairs difficult but not impossible, but I have never bothered to get a handicapped card for my automobile. Therefore the first problem was finding a parking space close to the terminal. I spent five minutes driving around the lot until I found a space reasonably close to the East end of the platform. I walked to the elevator to descend to the platform. There are two elevators at this station located at the extreme ends of the station. They are actually beyond the ends of the platforms with railings between the tracks and the platforms for about fifty feet. The Green Line LRV does not stop at the center of the platform either. It consists of one 87' articulated car, and it stops at the West end of the platform. The platform is at least 300' feet long. I came out of the elevator and saw a car sitting in the station. While walking the length of the station, I saw the T/O arrive, open the doors, go into the cab, and when I was still about ten feet in front of the car, pull out of the station.
The headway on the Green Line at that time of day is 15 minutes. This wait gave me plenty of time to catch my breath and take the next car for the 11 minute trip to the Blue Line. At the exchange station (Rosa Parks) there were three elevators from the platform leading to the West Plaza, Center Plaza and East Plaza respectively. No signs indicated which to take to get to the Blue Line. I could see that the Blue Line tracks crossed under the East end of the station, so I correctly guessed that the elevator to the East Plaza was the one to take. On the elevator I had a choice of Mezzanine or Street Level. I chose Street Level because I knew the Blue Line ran at grade level in that area. This was a wrong choice. I found myself on the street outside of the station watching my Blue Line train pull in to the station. By the time I went back up to the mezzanine, crossed over to another elevator and descended to the Blue Line platform, I had missed the train and had a 12 minute wait for the next one.
It is a 25 minute trip on the Blue Line to downtown. I had to stand for the first two stations, then found a seat for the rest of the trip. At the downtown end of the Blue Line, I had to transfer to the Red Line. The Red Line runs underneath the Blue Line, and there were stairways leading down to it, but no operating escalators. I saw a sign pointing to an elevator at the end of the blue line platform and asked a man in wheelchair who was headed that way if the elevator went to the Red Line. He said it did, so I went to it with him and discovered that it only went up to a mezzanine level. At the mezzanine level I found another elevator which had a sign which said it was to the Red Line, but it went to the opposite platform of the Blue Line. I finally found an elevator to the Red Line from that platform (no arrows or signs) and as I got to the platform, a train was pulling out. The trains were on a 7 minute headway, so I waited that long for the next one.
It was a three minute ride to my destination station (Civic Center) at 1st and Hill streets, where I had to walk one block to 1st and Broadway to catch a bus. When I got to the Civic Center station, I found that the up escalator at the South end of the platform was not working. To go to the North end of the station to find an escalator or elevator would have added two blocks of walking, so I decided to make the one flight climb ( BTW, About 40% of the escalators I saw were OOS, possibly because they had been idle for such a long time during the strike). The stairs took me to a mezzanine and a long (est.40') escalator (and stairway) to the street. I noted that there was no elevator or down escalator at this entrance, so I could not return this way.
When I walked the one block to catch my bus, sure enough as I started across the intersection to the bus stop, the bus I wanted pulled out from the curb from behind another bus and pulled up to the crosswalk in the traffic lane. The driver would not allow a passenger to board in the middle of the street, so I had to wait for the next bus. The schedule headway was 6 minutes, but I waited 10 minutes for the next bus.
I finally reached the Federal Building about 2:15 P.M. If I had driven it would have been a 30-40 minute trip. Admittedly, the MTA trip planner calls for taking one express bus instead of the Green and Blue Lines to reach downtown, and it is possible that the express bus crosses the last bus line I took to my final destination, so maybe the trip could have been made with a two-seat bus ride rather than three trains and one bus. But I am a rail fan, not a bus fan, so I opted for rail travel.
After battling the bureaucracy I got the documents I needed and left the Federal Building at 3:20 P.M. My brief case now weighed about 25 pounds and I sure wished I had a car trunk handy to unload it into. As I crossed the street to catch my bus, it had just turned the corner and pulled into the stop. Needless to say, I missed it. Fortunately the next bus arrived about six minutes later, and I arrived at my 3:30 meeting only eight minutes late.
Because I was running so late I did not have time to stop for any lunch, and by the time I got to the meeting I was feeling hypoglycemic. Fortunately a colleague at the meeting was able to give me a couple of pieces of hard candy which brought my sugar level up.
The meeting was over at 5:00 P.M. and I got a ride back to the 1st & Hill subway station. But this was the entrance with no elevator or down escalator, so I opted to walk the 3/4 block to the other entrance. There is a 20' rise in that 3/4 block, so by the time I was half way there, I was feeling some angina and my knees were killing me. I stopped to rest at a bus stop half way to the subway entrance, and noted that one of the buses that stopped there ran on Melrose Avenue. I decided to take the bus to Melrose and La Brea to get a meal at Pink's Hot Dog Stand (The Hot Dog Stand of the stars, and Los Angeles' answer to Nathans), with the thought that I would catch a bus from there to Hollywood and the Red Line in Hollywood.
Within five minutes the bus came along. It was a 40' NABI low floor. Although I had to stand at first, by the time the bus reached Temple Street and Glendale Boulevard I was able to get a seat. With the heavy traffic, it took 40 minutes to reach La Brea, but by the time we got there, only two other passengers remained on the bus. This has to say something about who rides public transportation in Los Angeles. The bus still had a mile or two to run down an avenue with small apartment buildings on the intersecting streets in the heart of the evening rush hour and the fare was FREE, and yet the bus was empty.
After a dinner of a couple of foot long hot dogs with mustard, onion, sauerkraut and chili, plus a Dr. Brown's Creme Soda, my stomach felt a lot better, but my knees had stiffened up and were killing me. At about 6:45 P.M. I started to the intersection to cross to get a Northbound bus to Hollywood, when a Southbound bus came along. Its South terminal is at a Green Line station, so I jumped on. I rode for a couple of blocks in bumper to bumper traffic, and began to think it was a major mistake not to visit the rest room at Pink's, because it looked like it would be a couple of hours on the bus considering the speed of the traffic.
A few minutes later as we approached Wilshire Boulevard, I decided to transfer to the Rapid Bus to the Wilshire & Western station of the Red Line. The Rapid Bus is an express bus with stops about a mile apart and a transponder that keeps a green traffic light green for up to an additional ten seconds as it approaches an intersection. Although I had to stand, the three mile trip was quick.
At Wilshire and Western I descended to the Red Line platform. The station was deserted so I walked to the middle of the platform and took a seat to wait for the train. The trains here had a twelve minute headway, so I should have stayed on the bus for one more mile to Wilshire and Vermont where the trains from North Hollywood also stopped (reducing the headway to 6 minutes). This was a terminal station, and when the two car train arrived, it pulled into the station only far enough for the second car to be in the station. Since the platform is long enough for a ten car train, I had a three car length walk from the middle of the station just to get to the train.
A seven minute ride brought me to the Blue Line station in downtown L.A. This time I quickly found an elevator which took me to the right platform, but just as I reached the platform the door lights on a waiting train went out and it pulled out of the station. Again a twelve minute wait for the next train. It was now about 7:50 P.M. and there were seats for everyone. I did notice on the 22 minute ride to the Green Line station, that because of the bright lights inside the train, and either tinted glass and/or poorly lighted station signs (none flourescent, only indirect lighting) it was often difficult to tell what station the train was stopping at. I dozed for a moment and almost missed my station. I was not sure if I was at the proper station or the one before my station when we pulled in. I could not see anything through the windows but got up and went to the door and recognized by the number of buses outside the station that this was the correct one and got off.
I went up to the Green Line Station which is just above road level in the center of a freeway. It was chilly, the noise level was annoying, and it was so crowded that there were no platform seats available. The Green Line ran with a 20 minute head way (at 8:30 on a Friday evening), and I had a 15 minute wait on the platform. When the single car train arrived, I found a seat and dozed on the 10 minute ride to the Norwalk Park n Ride. Once there I limped down the length of the platform schlepping my 25 pound briefcase to take the elevator to my car which was now all alone in the lot.
When I got home I was completely exhausted. I am still a railfan, and will continue riding on weekends from time to time, but it was clear to me after this day's adventure why so few commuters in the L.A. area who have automobiles are willing to give them up to commute to work. There will have to be a great improvement in the service to convince me to voluntarily commute again on the train, even if the ride is free.
Tom
That bus line on Melrose Avenue (#10) is always empty going towards West Hollywood after Western Avenue. The #10 in the reverse direction however has plenty of passengers. I believe that most of the people coming back home from Downtown LA take either the Santa Monica Blvd. bus(#4/304) or the Beverly Blvd. bus(#14) as they run more often than the #10.
Found a strange card laying on a card reader that I don't recall hearing about. It depicts the face of a young light-skinned black girl and has something to do with 'wiping out cancer'.
Anyone know of this card?
Joe C
I've never seen that, but if anyone has an image of it I'd like to see it. At work I'm making some high school science lessons on cancer and a picture like that could be nifty to include.
Try calling the # (1-877-NYC-PROJ). I'll bet they would love a little publicity, especially if the kids are going to bring it home.
BTW, I've seen posters, maybe they'll give you a pair.
Mr t__:^)
Joe, Assume it's the "New York Cancer Project" series or two:
- African-Am Baby, and Chinese Baby
I got one of the latter last week. The Subway-Buff said they first came out 10/16.
Just got a set of the four football cards, as nice as the Mets series.
Mr t__:^)
Hey Thurston,
Thnx for the info. There are TWO cards to look for then. Will keep watch. BTW, I found three different football cards on the same reader as the cancer card; quite a lucky spot! I shall return. One card was somewhat bent, though.
Joe C
I posted this. It is the African-American Baby (also a Chinese Baby version- in chinese) for the NY Cancer Project . DO a search for messages posted by me and you can see the stations issuing each version of this card.
Did! All the way back to early October. No can find. Perhaps you titled it differently?
Joe C
Joe, the title is "New Promotional MetroCard" (I printed off a copy).
Mr t__:^)
VOLUME II OF TWELVE HISTORICAL NEW YORK CITY STREET AND TRANSIT MAPS 1847 TO 1839 IS NOW AVAILABLE. IF YOU WISH TO ORDER YOUR COPY VISIT:
HandMProductionsbooks.com
ANY RELATED QUESTIONS MAY BE SENT TO ME VIA THIS POSTING.
For those of us who prepaid for it at the Fall Trolley Extravaganza a few months ago, when should we expect shipment?
--Mark
When will it be in bookstores??? (I have a gift certificate at B & N I have been saving for just such a purchase)
I saw an ad on the subway a few days ago for the NYC2012 campaign to bring the Olympics to New York; it shows commuters sitting in an R-33WF, and one man holding himself up by the handgrips. Upon closer inspection, the interior of the car is blue, not beige, and IND-style "COURT" tiles are visible through the window, which means... it must be 9306! Just thought I'd pass it along.
The R16 was in some commercial recently. The inside was the same. I can't recall what is was about.
I also posted something on this last month.
Here's the link to that.
Thank you.
I picked up a couple from what appears to be the new batch, i.e. exires 1/31/02. I don't see any difference from the orig. graphics.
Mr t__:^)
It looks as if they will be no trolley lines running on the island of Manhattan since the cross town line on 42 street was canned. My question is are there any laws that prohibit the use of overhead wiring in Manhattan or at least on certain streets? I seem to recall that some or all parts of Fifth Ave. has that restriction. Also, does anyone know of the trolley line that is being proposed in the Village? I know the group has a web site, but I can't recall what it is.
YES! since the blizzard of 1888 , when a ton of electric, telegraph and telephone wires where brought down. Utilities were forced underground, by LAW.
avid
In New York County - Manhattan.
avid
When tour guides at BERA tell the tale of TARS 220 (Third Ave Rail System) how it went from a Cable car to an electric powered car where the third rail ran in the old cable conduit under ground because overhead was banned in New York County.
I've always asked then why does it have trolley poles on it, and have been told it did end up in the Bronx where overhead was allowed....So I beleive overhead is banned in Manhattan (NY County).
YUP!
avid
So all the streetcars in Manhattan were powered by under-car center 3rd rail conduit, post blizzard? Can anyone give a quick overview of the main streetcar (after all, with no pole and overhead power lines, they weren't really trolleys, were they?) lines in Manhattan at their peak, or recommend a good book? There's a vast store of subway lit, but very little on streetcars that I know of. After I post this, I will check out this sites bibliography...
The "Bible" is "Third Avenue Railway System, 1953-1953, Roster of Equipment", by Vincent F. Seyfried, printed in 1953. It is 95% roster, but a very precious 5% history.
Some of us used to call the vehicles "streetcars" (a term used indiscriminately in New York City and others called them "trolleys". My own first experience of finding a trolley car without poles on its roof is a memorable trauma! Many ended up on the Bronx lines with trolley poles in their last years of service.
Unfortunately, there still is little comprehensively written on the extensive Third Avenue Railway System but you should access the NY Division E.R.A. bulletins which, I am told, have histories of every route/line. There still is no "Third Avenue Railway" book of grand proportions, and my belief now is that there never will be. Alas! Meanwhile, find yourself a Seyfried.
There is also a book about New York Railways, the other Manhattan streetcar company. Their lines lasted until 1936, whereas TARS ended streetcar service in Manhattan in 1949.
Was the Green Line under New York Railways? Steinway too?
I just got a copy of the Green Lines book. The Green Line was New York Railways. It came out of the Metropolitan Street Railway bankruptcy. It was owned and operated by the IRT.
The Green Line has the dubious "honor" of being the first electric railway to be destroyed by National City Lines and Mr. La Guardia.
And come ride TARS #629, she's back from Vienna (was there in the late 40s as part of the Marshall Plan). She's a true "street" car, i.e. mfg. in-house by TARS in 1939 for the streets of Manhattan. She has a foot pedal so you could creep down the streets in heavy traffic.
#220 is now over 100, being mfg. as a cable car in 1892. She's been restored to realy fine shape (as she was when she worked the street of the Bronx).
Mr t__:^)
629 had a slightly different TARS paint scheme in 1980 than the one it has now. I got a kick out of seeing the "Auf" and "Zu" German signs inside it back then.
Next time take a close look at the glass, wasn't made in USA.
Mr t__:^)
Ahhhhh. Thanks for the tip. I will be sure to do so next time I'm at Shoreline.
Did anyone ever get fried by the power in the street? I could just imagine a rainstorm, a clogged drain (litter or ice), the slot filling up -- with water on the third rail spilling into the street. JOLT.
These days, someone sticking their hand down into the slot (or, rather, their survivors) could win a nice lawsuit.
Interesting question. There is nothing in my library that reports such incidents. The slot had a third and "fourth" (continuous electrical ground) rail in it, so in the unlikely event of it flooding (the conduits were very well drained) the system would short on itself first, knocking out the section breaker. The only conduit "spectaculars" of record were plow fires, which were rare, but spectacular for a short while. There was a movie of one such fire in Washington D.C. shown at E.R.A. in the 1950's, back in the era of my first membership in that organization. I cannot remember whose movie it was, but it was a color film.
"These days, someone sticking their hand down into the slot (or, rather, their survivors) could win a nice lawsuit."
Fat chance!!
1. The slot was only 1 1/8th inch wide, the law required that the slot be sightly narrower than the calk on a horse shoe.
2. The contact rails were 18 - 22 inches below the slot rails.
Assuming that some idiot has a hand thinner than 1 1/8th inch, the idiot would have to reach over a foot and a half plus, just to touch the rails.
Virtually impossible for someone to get electrocuted. Besides
the narrow slot and depth of the electrical conductor rails, as
Dan mentioned, the entire system was floating. Even if a small
length of pipe or other metal object were to fall into the slot and
make contact with one of the conductors, there would be no path
to ground if someone were to touch it. Of course, that's theory.
In practice, grounds did develop on the system, but I've never
heard of any reported incident in either NY or DC>
Right!
All of Manhattan was placed under restriction against overhead
wires in 1890. However, exceptions were granted. There were a
few trolley lines from the Bronx that operated for a few blocks
in Upper Manhattan under the wire. I've also seen telephone wires
on poles in a few neighborhoods up there. The proposed 42 St
light rail line as well as the lower east side light rail line
both were drawn up with overhead catenary, so presumably the
planners were not concerned about this 1890 law.
Does anyone have pictures of the world series R62s? (1415)
No pictures, but I had a front row spot for the parade, and the R62 looked good up on the float. It was the last float in the parade, and they even had the doors open and various Yankee dignataries were packed inside of it....just like on a hot summer evening uptown! -Nick
There was a photo on this site, check back thru the old posts.
Mr t__:^)
IIRC the bridge was single track, andsuffered from arson during the PCbankruptcy era. It had been downgraded by the geniuses in Phila because with New Haven captive, a competing (Maybrook is correct) route was undesireable.
Clearly some new routings are necessary around NYC, as well as (sigh) more service for the extreme commuters.
Selling Southern Tier, however, strikes me as short term stupidity. When the Eriewas built itwas set up for wider guage and cars==fully capable of high and wide double stacks.
In the Conrail Era the Southern Tier was the only double-stack route into new York City. HOWEVER, about 8 years ago Conrail got a truck load of money from Pennsylvania to complete a clearance project on the Pittsburg and Harrisburg lines to enable them to accept double stack trains. Because the Pittsburg line is a much faster route than the Southern Tier, NS has just pulled the last remaining stack trains off the Tier and transfered them to the "Penn" route. Don't forget that Conrail sold most of the Lehigh Line to the Reading and Northern so NS is not the first Class 1 to try to divest its self of that region.
Hadn't thought of that. Thank you, Jersey Mike!
The bridge actually had guantlet track and normal double track on either side of the span.
At one time, yes, but that was long gone by the time I was growing up in its shadow in the '50s and '60s. The line across the bridge, and for miles on either side, was simple single track.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow, lots of stuff off ERN this past week. And Now...
NEW P42-9DC IDENTITY UNVEILED THIS MORNING...
Continuing its modernization of the nation's passenger rail system, Amtrak today took delivery of the first of 85 new diesel locomotive engines built by General Electric (GE) Transportation Systems.
In a ceremony at Amtrak's Chicago Maintenance Facility, GE Transportation Systems President John Krenicki turned over the keys to a brand new P42-9DC locomotive to George Warrington, Amtrak President and Chief Executive Officer. The new locomotive is also the first to feature Amtrak's new corporate brand identity, replacing the "inverted arrow" which had represented the company for 29 years.
Amtrak will be receiving 84 more units from General Electric over the next 12 months in an order worth approximately $200 million.
"This acquisition means Amtrak's passengers will enjoy reliable, high-quality service backed up by our one-of-a-kind guest satisfaction guarantee," said Wisconsin Governor Tommy Thompson, Chairman of the Amtrak Board of Directors. "The new locomotives are the first of our long-distance equipment to feature Amtrak's new look-a look that represents the new Amtrak-vibrant, forward thinking and poised for enormous commercial success."
"These new locomotives incorporate the latest innovations in technology and fuel-efficiency," said Krenicki. "The continuing revival of passenger rail in this country depends on reliable locomotive power and we are pleased to provide it. Amtrak's guests will enjoy the comfort of these machines for a long, long time."
Amtrak's new locomotives feature contemporary styling and advanced technology systems. Each locomotive is powered by a 16-cylinder engine equipped with electronic fuel injection for greater fuel economy. The units also feature cab signaling, segmented fuel tanks and automatic parking brakes for improved passenger and crew safety..
The new locomotives feature a new logo whose shape, convergent lines, and suggestion of movement capture the excitement of the travel experience. Additionally, Amtrak's new, sturdy Word Mark reflects the company's growing strength and reliability. Combined, they represent a revitalized corporation that puts the safety, comfort, and enjoyment of every guest first, and backs it up with a one-of-a-kind commitment to guest satisfaction.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/*Amtrak's new locomotives feature contemporary styling and advanced technology systems. Each locomotive is powered by a 16-cylinder engine equipped with electronic fuel injection for greater fuel economy. The units also feature cab signaling, segmented fuel tanks and automatic parking brakes for improved passenger and crew safety..*/
DC traction? (as the GE designation sugessts..) Cab Signalling? EFI?
This isn't advanced stuff, it's acient technology.
And frankly, I think GE passenger locomotives suck. They're slow, unreliable, and louder than my bike. Only redeeming value is an excellent body design, and their lighter weight (I believe a P-32 weighs only a bit more than an AEM-7)
If you want advanced locomotives, go to Europe. that's where the technology is.
A P42 weighs about 25 tonnes more than an AEM-7. I'm not sure about the P32, but remember it only has 1/2 the power.
If you want advanced locomotives, go to Europe. that's where the technology is.
More like cheap expensive junk. Advanced technology doen not imply high quality or even good.
I agree w/ you about the GE's. I'd love to see EMD get out of the 3000 hp rut. The F-59's look very nice and I would love to see some F-70PHIAC or F-80PHIAC locomotives.
The History Channel is showing "Modern Marvels" tonight(Thursday) at 9 pm EST/PST and 8 pm CST.
Tonight's episode features the history of the London Underground from it's opening to present. I saw it last year(it's a repeat), it is very entertaining. You've gotta see it.
Thanks for the heads up, watching it now.
Well I was wrong, it wasn't a repeat. But it was a fascinating program!
If you missed it, it repeats on The History Channel at 1 am eastern late Thursday night(get those VCR's ready)!
I saw it too ... very well laid out program with lots of shots of various cars.
Did you know London had the World's first subway (tube/underground), but it was steam powered ?
NYC was #3, so who was #2 ... hint 1: it's in the USA, hint 2: I've operated one of their Type 5s.
Mr t__:^)
Boston...too easy
Peace,
ANDEE
Didn't Paris have a subway before New York?
You're right they did have it before NY. July 19,1900.
Peace,
ANDEE
And I think Budapest had one before NY, too, right?
--Mark
Yep, the first line of the Budapest subway opened in 1896.
Michalovic
Budapest was the first metro EVER built - 1887 i think,...
Not correct. Budapest was the first metro on mainland Europe. First line opened 1896.
Arti
EL WRONGO!
London in 1863.
Yes, London's first Underground trains were hauled by steam locomotives. The smoke in the tunnels had to be positively stifling!
I believe that even today, those original stations still have the huge vents used to vent out the smoke from the trains.
Correct, there are several sections which are open to above also. The locos were able to condense the steam and smoke to some degree. If you look aound the London skyline and see all the chimneys that at one time spewed out acrid coal smoke, the new Underground may have been a clean alternarive to surface transport.
Simon
Swindon UK
Not to mention the frequent fogs London was famous for. When I was there in 1978, out tour guide explained that after the Clean Air Act of 1956 was passed, the air became significantly cleaner to the point where fogs are less common now than they used to be. The biggest surprise I got was seeing Tower Bridge clean! Most photos from that era depict the towers as being black and grimy from years of exposure to soot and other pollutants. I did a double take when I saw it - whoa! Were the towers sandblasted?
The clean air act was a long tome coming. Thousand died in the smogs in the fifties and early sixties. I can remember going to school with a handkerchief over my face and arriving with it jet black. The government of the day did not want a declining coal industry even though it cost lives.
The History Channel are showing a programme about it here next Sunday but I shall miss it. Why you amy ask ? Cos I will be in NEW YORK CITY
enjoyong Subway Tour No 7.
Tower bridge was cleaned up in the early 1980's if I remeber correctly with low presure water over a long period of time. This saves the surface of the stone.
Simon
Swindon UK
I heard they literally hosed down some of the older buildings to clean them off. At any rate, Tower Bridge must have been cleaned during the mid-70s, as it was clean when I saw it in 1978. My father was in the UK in the fall of 1971, and he says Tower Bridge still looked grimy then.
I think the impetus for the Clean Air Act came after the famous 1952 fog which lasted four days. You could cut the air with a knife. Over in the US, Pittsburgh used to be really bad. It was described as "hell with the lid open."
So what does that make NYC ... 5th, behind London, Budapest, Paris, and Boston ? I'll have to correct my speal cheat sheet.
Next you guys are going to tell me it wasn't the Romans that are responsible for Standard Guage (the distance between their Chariot wheels) ?
Mr t__:^)
So what does that make NYC ... 5th, behind London, Budapest, Paris, and Boston ?
You forgot Glasgow - 1896.
It was cable hauled (with a high speed cable) and opened in 1897. The system opearated with cable until 1935. The line was 6.6 miles in length and used a single jawed side grip.
There are a few other underground railways in Europe that were constructed before the 1900's. Around 1871?, Istanbul inaugurated it's Tunel funicular, running under Galata Hill with an underground station at each end. Liverpool opened it's Mersey Railway tunnel in 1886, which linked Birkenhead to central Liverpool. It is more of an underground suburban ry. In 1895, Athens-Pireaus suburban ry extended to Ormonia Square as an underground line in 1895. It was electrified in 1904 webpage www.isap.gr.index.html Finally, in 1898, the Vienna Stadtbahn was opened, using steam engines to haul coached elevated and underground. It was electrified in the early 1920's and now uses LRT cars. An excellent sight about European metros with a link to a web page about Vienna Stadtbahn history is www.metropla.net
It is under the links section in the Vienna city metroguide.
This will be far too confusing for me & Shoreline customers ;-)
Guess I'll just change it to "electric underground" with Athens being first, Boston second, & NYC third ????????
London will be a footnote, i.e. STEAM underground in 1863.
This is similar to our discussion about Mr. Sprague, who our main public bldg. is named after, i.e. he didn't invent elect. trolleys, but did come up with the 1st practical way to power them.
Mr t
He also invented multiple unit control. The man was quite an innovator.
City and South London Railway (Stockwell to King William Street, now part of the Northern Line) opened for business with electric locomotives in 1890. [First line with multiple unit carriages was the Waterloo & City Line, in 1898.]
Watching that show I thought it was interesting that there was so much American involvement in making the London Underground what it is today. I also thought it was interesting that the transit operator was so involved in the development of suburban London, which was really different from the U.S. where suburbia was auto-driven and detremental to public transit. It's strange that we're now starting to build "transit-oriented developments" thinking it's a brand new idea when London was doing it fifty years ago.
Michalovic
I have not seen the programme, but what developments were you refering to, or was it just general. Much of North West London was built around the Metropolitan Railway.
Simon
Swindon UK
The program wasn't very specific. They never said which developments were transit-driven, only that this took place in the postwar years.
Michalovic
Could somebdy tell me what was the car epuipments assign to the "K" line back between 1985-1988?
The 8th Ave. "K" was operated mostly with slant R40's and some R42's.
I have some vague recollections of riding the K train to the Museum of Natural History with my parents when I was about 4-5, but I don't recall the slant cars. I remember the flat-front versions (R-40M and/or R-42). I can't remember if they were the old interiors or the rebuilt ones. I even remember a Redbird (R-27/30), both on the K and on the C after the C took over. I remember the takeover - K signs were still up all over, but the K train was missing from the new map. My father thought it was a misprint! That was until we found out after waiting for a K that never showed, my father asked a transit cop, and found out that there was no more K - we had to take the C.
The first slant-front R-40 I saw was on the B, circa same as above. We were on the F train pulling into Stillwell Ave and I saw the slant-40 B train a couple tracks away and I was transfixed.
All throughout the CI visit, I bugged my father with "Can we please take the B train, I want to ride the B train!" I was expecting an exotic experience, but I was very disappointed to find out that the Wierd Train looked like any other subway car on the inside.
With 100% certainty, the slant R40's ran on the AA and the K after the changeover. At the time, slant R40's were the main equipment operated on the A and AA/K lines.
You also had a few R-40M's and $2's on the line since the train ran with both cars from 207th ST and Coney Island when the occassional B train was split up....IIRC, the line had 1 or 2 R-27/30's running prior to the C train taking over.
I have never seen a slant R40 on the K line, but I never rode it before 9/85, so they may have run there before that date. But never after. It was almost always R42's on this line.
I have recollections of seeing at least one train of R-32's on the (K) line. Anybody else?
Bob Sklar
Almost exclusively R42, when it became the K from the AA in 4/85 to it's demise on 12/11/88. I did see one set of R38's (pre GOH with AC units and the old 1969 colored side signs set to KK 6th Ave local in 1987!), as well as a few sets of green R10's for a few weeks on 10/87.
I believe the only cars not to run on the AA/K were the R-44's...They just threw any car on that line back then.
where were the 32s and 44s running at the time?
During the 'K's official existence from 1983(?)-88, you would find:
-R32s were largely on the 'G', 'N' and 'R' both before and after the great N/R switch of May '87. They also put in cameos on the 'B', 'D', 'L' and 'M'.
Interestingly, during that time, the 32s that ran out of Jamaica had their interiors redone so that the walls were beige and the inside doors were bright blue, a similar shade to what the outside doors originally were. If a 32 was just pulling in Queensbound at 5th Avenue or Lexington Avenue, you could immediately differentiate between an 'N' which was still covered in graffiti and had the orange inside doors, and an 'R', which was ungraffitied and had the blue doors. By summer 1987, all 32s were redone in this way. In summer 1988, the first overhauled 32s were on the 'R'.
The last R-32 I saw that was not given the 1988 overhaul was on the 'N' in May 1990.
The Mod 40s and 42s had a similar interior paint scheme during that time.
The 44s were almost exclusively on the 'A' during the eighties, still with the original 'bullseye' letter sign at the end, the long route strip map, the feeble door chime and the black-on-white car number plates. They pretty much left the Queens division after 1977 and the 'D' after 1980.
During that time, the R-32s also went back to displaying destination signs up front, reversing a trend which began with the opening of the Chrystie St. connection. I had a gut feeling all along that front destination signs would make a comeback on the R-32s, and was thrilled to see that they had. Bringing back the blue doors was a sight to behold as well; all of a sudden it was 1965 and 1967 all over again. Well almost - the side destination signs were backlit in white instead of green. Close enough.
From 1985-1987, you could always tell the N from the R easily: the N cars had no grafitti and the R cars were the dregs of the system (grafitti splattered montage of R16/R27/R30/R32/R40/R42's). When the switch was made in late May 1987, the N still had some grafitti-coverd R32's before the R68's were fully delivered. Must've sucked to ride the Astoria line, seeing all the clean cars running on the "other" line.
A similiar split developed on the 2 D services, with the Broadway section getting new R68's and the Bronx/6th Ave. version gettng the awful R42's, pre GOH.
[A similiar split developed on the 2 D services, with the Broadway section getting new R68's and the Bronx/6th Ave. version gettng the awful R42's, pre GOH.]
Let's not forget the non functioning A/C on those pre-GOH R-42's on the Bronx (D). Rolling saunas !
Bill "Newkirk"
Non functioning AC? That was the least of your problems. Nearly every 10 car trainset of those cars had at least 1 "dark" car. And at least one broken door in every car.
But those puppies really rocketed up CPW, and the ride in a dark car was quite a rush.
Dammit! I really missed out on a lot by being born in 1983 and allowing all the good stuff to pass me by!:
Those R-10's that everybody seems to love
Dark cars
Fast, loud rides
"Blinking" lights
The original sensual look of the R-40/42's.
Loud and windy fans with warm and humid currents instead of quiet and spoiling air conditioning.
The overall gritty, masculine condition of the subway.
Why, WHY, couldn't my parents have met 10 years earlier? WHY????
BTW - I don't use air conditioning in my room (my parents use it in the rest of the house, but not me - fans and open windows only). AC is bad for the environment, anyway!
(Well, okay, if the heat index is like 110, maybe I'll close my windows and open my door to let the AC from the other rooms seep in - and that's a big maybe!) I'm a "fresh air" type of person.
You know, sometimes I wonder why my folks waited ten years before having me.:-) I'm too young to remember streetcars in Chicago, for instance. OTOH, I'm thankful to be old enough to remember the immortal R-10s on the A. Nothing will ever top a CPW express dash on those thundering speedsters, or as I like to affectionately call them, Thunderbirds and the Thundering Herd.
I never thought I'd say this, but I'm also thankful to be old enough to remember the BMT standards on the Canarsie. But I STILL missed out on the Triplexes!! Arrrrgh!!
I was just about to become 2 when Chrystie opened, and I've been trying to get may parents to remember if they ever took me on a
ASTORIA
CONEY ISLAND
QT | BROADWAY LOCAL
I missed all that, and that's one reason I would like to see them do away with the duplicat post-Chrystie letters when the bridge switches sides.
Anyway, I did get to ride the multi-car type & color IRT trains of the 70's, the first R-44's with the carpeting, and and saw the original interiors of the 32's & 42's (those 42 dark cars were cool when they were still blue inside and the AC was working).
The QT was one of the casualties of the Chrystie St. connector. Except for occasional reroutes, there has not been a Broadway-Brighton service via tunnel since then. I'm trying to remember if I ever rode on one. I do remember seeing them. The only possibility would have been in July of 1965, from 34th St. to Whitehall St. We were going from the Empire State Building to the Battery to catch the ferry to Liberty Island and would have taken whatever came first, a QT or an RR.
P. S. The R-27/30s originally kept the old BMT titles on their route signs in conjunction with the new route names. In your case, the route sign would say: "QT Broadway-Brighton Local via Tunnel"
I had one of the original pamphlets when the first stage of that connector opened almost 33 years ago. My mother got it for me one day when she went into the city a month before the opening. It has since been lost. What really killed me was that she went to a yarn store in the Bronx on a D train, and said it really moved along CPW. She got to experience a CPW express dash before I did! On R-1/9s!! I was so jealous.:-)
>P. S. The R-27/30s originally kept the old BMT titles on their route signs in conjunction with the new route names. In your case, the route sign would say: "QT Broadway-Brighton Local via Tunnel"
I was thinking of an R-32 and forgot the line was mostly 27/30's. Oh well, there was also the old
57 STREET
BRIGHTON BEACH
Q | BROADWAY EXP
Well, that's going to be the service pattern for the Q express when the south side bridge tracks reopen, so that combination will see a revival.
Now, if you change the route sign to N-Broadway Exp and leave the 57th St. sign in green, that's exactly what I saw on that very first N train I ever rode on all those years ago. "Coney Island" backlit in green was even better.
And speaking of the R-27/30s, they got new front end route curtains when the Chrystie St. connector opened, but kept their original side route curtains for the most part. Next time you watch The Warriors, pay attention to the route sign in the prom couple sequence when the train is running underground. It's set to "QB-Local via Bridge". The movie came out in 1979.
I do remember those, and that they were slightly different. (like the "via" on the outside was diagonal)
Posted
Wednesday, November 15
8:40 PM
Yes, the "via" in the via bridge/via tunnel part on the outside of the route signs was diagonal. On the inside, it was vertical.
>>>But those puppies really rocketed up CPW, and the ride in a dark car was quite a rush. <<<
Yes, did that many times. It was the one saving grace of those
pre-GOH 42s from hell.
Peace,
ANDEE
You also had that same split on the "B" with the Southern Div. getting the anti-graffiti R32, R40s and rebuilt R30s, R30As and R40s; while the Washington Heights "B" as well as the "K" received those awlful Sauna on rail R42s.
where did the r30s run from 1979-1993?
From 1979 until, 1980, you basically found them in the "AA", "B", "D", "J", "LL", "M", "QB", "RR", "SS" (Franklin Ave. Shuttle), and occasionally on the "N".
After 1981, they were removed from the "AA", "B", and "D". Although you would still find them running on those lines very, very sporadically.
There was virtually no change from 1981 until 1987 when some of the R27s started appearing on the "C". The R27s also saw service on the "A" train for a short while during the overhauling of the R38s. Also, all R27s, R30s and R30As were removed from service on the "R" train after the May 1987 switch of the "N" and "R" northern terminals.
The bulk of the R27s remained on the "C" until they were retired from service in 1989. They were replaced on the "C" by the unrebuilt R30s (8412-8549?) (which began showing up on the "C" in the Fall of 1988) in 1989. During the spring and summer of 1989, rebuilt R30s (8250-8349) began appearing on the "C".
As of Fall of 1989, all R27s were retired from revenue service, all R30s (rebuilt and unrebuilt) were on the "C" and the rebuilt R30As (8350-8411) were on the "J", "L", "M", "Z" as well as the Southern Division "B" trains.
During December 1990, the unrebuilt R30s were removed from the "C" train and retired from revenue service. The R30A's were transfered from the "L" and "M" trains (they stopped operating on the "J" and "Z" circa Spring of 1990) replaced the unrebuilt R30s that were operating on the "C" train. This transfer also marked an end of an era of R27/30/30A's operating on the BMT, where they have been operating since they first went into service in 1960.
The rebuilt R30/R30A's remained in service exclusively on the "C" train until Summer of 1993 when they were retired from revenue service and replaced by R32s.
There are some mistakes with this timetable. All unrebuilt R27 and R30's disappeared in the summer of 1988. What was left were the redbirds, which I'm assuming you mean as "rebuilt". They disappeared from the J and M lines shortly after the Archer Ave. opening. They first appeared on the C in mid 1989, as the R10's were scrapped, not before. No unrebuilt R27's/R30's ever ran on the C in the 1980's. I can attest to that personally. The last R30A cars disappeared in the spring of 1993, running on the C.
No, I meant "UNREBUILT R30s" ran on the "C" train. They started appearing on the "C" train shortly before it became a full service route which was Fall 1988. Although they were painted red, they were not rebuilt. The number series for this set of cars were (8412-8569?).
And, yes, indeed, R27s (8100-8249; for some reason, 8020-8099 never saw service on the "C") were definately on the "C" train, from 1987 until the January of 1989. I can personally attest to this fact because I rode this train many times on the "C" as well as the "A" train and believe me they were some of the slowest, filthiest, and during the summer, hottest things I have ever rode. Considering that the "A" and the "C" ran right by my window (when the "C" used to go to Rockaway Park), I was well aware of what type of car ran on these lines.
I remember riding on R-27/30 D trains in 1980. For some strange reason, some of them sported DD signs up front. Wonder if they had old R-1/9 curtains that weren't cranked far enough.
For the life of me, I can not remember any R27's or 30's running on the A line as late as 1987 or 1988. I just remember having the time of my life in June 1986, when I boarded a shuttle to Beach 116, and it was an R-10 train. Does anyone know when the R-10 was officially retired? Was 1986 its last summer?
No the R10's (greenbird green)retired in late 1989 not in the summer of 1986.
No the R10's (greenbird green)retired in late 1989 not in the summer of 1986.
Because they never did. All R27-30 cars were assigned to CI or ENY after the Manhattan bridge closure of 4/86. They never, EVER ran on the C, except for an occasional fluke which could always be possible during the time the entire fleet was undergoing it's GOH. The first "redbird" R27/30 appeared on the C in spring 1989, when the R10's were slowly sent to the slaughterhouse.
I do remember a fluke R27/30 D train in the summer of 1987 running on the 34th St-Bronx portion for a couple of weeks.
once late at night I saw a R30 A train
I must have missed that one. I never saw any R-27/30s on the A, although I do remember seeing them on the AA in the late 60s, decked out in the red paint job some of them got before silver and blue took over.
this was in 91 or 92 or 93
That would have been the C. I am referring to the red (not Fox Red) paint job which many olive drab LAHT cars got in the late 60s. We were at 14th St. one Saturday morning and had just gotten off a southbound A train. I looked over to the northbound platform and saw an AA train of red R-27/30s. It was unusual to see those cars there, as by that time base AA service was provided by R-32s. I still associate the R-27/30s with the BMT, particularly the RR followed by the old JJ and QJ routes. I also remember seeing pre-Chrystie St. QB trains of those cars along Broadway on Saturdays in 1967 (the QB was a late night and weekend operation before Chrystie St), not to mention T trains of R-32s.
nope... it was on the A, at 59th st uptown
And Red
You do realize you replying to a post 3 years ago. :)
Because they never did. All R27-30 cars were assigned to CI or ENY after the Manhattan bridge closure of 4/86. They never, EVER ran on the C, except for an occasional fluke which could always be possible during the time the entire fleet was undergoing it's GOH. The first "redbird" R27/30 appeared on the C in spring 1989, when the R10's were slowly sent to the slaughterhouse.
I do remember a fluke R27/30 D train in the summer of 1987 running on the 34th St-Bronx portion for a couple of weeks.
Whether you believe it or not, the R27s did run on the "C" from 1987 until they were retired from service. I have a gut feeling that you were not a regular rider of the "C" train during this time, because if you were, you would have noticed that about half of the service was provided by the R27s.
Oh yes I was. I was a regular rider of "every" line in those days. Absolutley no R27's ran on the C line in 1987, or 1988. None. Nada. Zippo. The C line was completely R10, with the occasional R38.
Can't say which year, but R27 GE cars (8136-8249) did run on the C (or was it CC?) and assigned to Pitkin Yard for awhile full of graffiti. One morning I had a 1/2 trip special from Rock Park to Bedford Park, then laid up to CCYD. The train I operated was indeed a GE R27.
Thank you very much for your input. It is really appreciated. I was beginning to think that I was the only one who knew this.
This is quite possible. However, it must've been a fluke assignment, always possible during the time cars were GOH'ed.
This might also have been during the Willy-B closure or 4/88-6/88, when A and C service was increased to compensate. I do recall a graffitied R27/R30 C train running during this time, and it disappeared when the bridge reopened.
The GE R27's (8136-8249) weren't there long at all. They were the first group of R27/30's to be scrapped. ENY yard dunped them on Pitkin! That group of cars were horrid as for dead motors. They were replaced by the Westinghouse R30's (8412 to 8569). A (and I mean a) few Westinghouse R27's (8020-8135) came over to spell the end of graffiti. In turn, these were replaced by the beloved GE R30 Redbirds (8250-8411).
Back then, I couldn't tell the difference between an R27 or R30, nor did I know these cars had 2 designations. I can only go by what I saw riding the rails as a teenager. Outside that one fluke train in 1988, I never saw these cars. Considering the time I spent on the Rockaway/Fulton St line as a railfan, it's impossible for me to have missed them.
Me too. They were virtually the same, just for contract numbers, GE vs. Westinghouse electrical equipment, one type of conductor door opening panel on the R27 and a different one on the R30, and I'm sure other minor differences between the two contracts. Of course, the #2 ends, eventhough they had no motorman controls, had regular couplers, so if one car would be out of service for heavy work, another car would be mated, hence all the mixed marriages, with one car possibly being an R27 with the other an R30. The 4 groups of cars were ultimately put back together, albeit not with their natural mates in most cases, toward the end of their lives. Trivia: when the Westinghouse R30's (8412-8569) were transfered to the C line, there was one car missing (8512 or 8513 which was destroyed in the Metropolitan Ave. fire in 1976). A Westinghouse R27 was graffiti free and mated to a Westinghouse R30. I believe the combo was 8052-8515 but I'm not sure, but there was one pair for sure.
I was only a kid, but if I remember correctly, the R-27 interior always had industrial gray doors, while the R-30 doors were a flourescent orangeish color.
I remember the summer of 1986, when I would see my friend Martin, who worked the M that year, and I just remember grey doors, westinghouse handle = 27, flourescent doors, GE handle = 30.
He left the line later that year when the R-16 came to the M line.
The man (Bill from Maspeth) just told you that the R27s operated on the "C". He even stated that he himself drove, not rode, but drove the R27 in regular "C" service. I stated that the "C" train, loaded with R27s ran right past my house, which means I get to observe this first hand, seven days a week.
What is it going to take for you to understand that just because you didn't observe R27s on the "C" train does not mean that they did not run in regular service on that line?
I really hope that your friend, Larry Redbird R33 has accurate car assignments from the times that I stated so you could see that the R27s did indeed run on the "C" train.
I'm willing to admit some ran there. However, they must've been for a short time and few in number. As a regular rider of A trains during that era, they couldn't have run in numbers, because I never saw them. I would have had they did. I'm not trying to sound arrogant. I'm simply stating facts.
I'd like to see some exact dates of these R27 assignments. I know none ran in 1987. 1988 is a possibility. Given that the C was rush hour only, it might've escaped my keen railfan eye.
I rode on one of those occasional R-38 C trains on the morning of Oct. 30, 1987. It marked the first time I had ever ridden on the R-38s, believe it or not. It was a pre-GOH train, with graffiti all over it.
Not to start an war here, but I can say you're incorrect. Aside from a possible fluke train, no R27's or R30's ran on the C until 1989, when the R10's were retired. The C was 95% R10 from late 1985 (when I first began riding the rails frequently) until spring 1989.
This time was the height of my teenage railfan years, and i zealously took heed to every line's car assignments.
[believe me they were some of the slowest, filthiest, and during the summer, hottest things I have ever rode. (R-27's)]
Sounds like to R-27's assigned to the (S) 6th Ave. shuttle, did those R-27's you described have all spotted wheels ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They sure sounded as though they did. Man, were they loud!
Yes they did. Only difference, the "C" never used R27s lower than 8100 (ie. 8079)
We need Larry Redbird R33 to settle this. He has access to the records of all car assignments. He can confirm that NO (i.e. none) R27's ran on the C until mid 1989. All R27's were assigned to CI or ENY during from May 1987 to mid 1989.
Of course, the occasional fluke R27 is possible. But they never ran in numbers, nore were they permamently assigned.
This period of time I was regularly doing what I called then "subway surfing", or riding the rails for sheer fun, much to the detriment of my grades (I cut school frequently), at least once a week, sometimes 3 times a week. I took notice of every line and the cars that ran on them. Since my favorite line of the time was the A, I saw plenty of C/H service. During this time, nothing but R10's and R38's ever ran on the C line.
I can prove my uncanny memory from this period by stating some of the more bizarre car assignments of 9/87-10/87, which had R68's on the F, R46's on the N to Astoria, red R30's on the R to Forest Hills and green R10's on the K.
Well, you might have been "surfing" once to sometimes 3 times a week, but you see, I was (and still am) gainfully employed. Due to me being employed, and living in the Rockaways, I had the fortune of riding the "A" and the "C" trains everyday, Monday thru Friday, twice a day, as well as on weekends. Also, by living in Rockaway, the "A" as well as rerouted "C" trains ran right by my window 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Now, if Larry Redbird R33 does have access to all car assignments, then it will be proven beyond the shadow of the doubt that R27s, as well as unrebuilt Redbird R30s (8412-8569) and rebuilt Redbird R30s and R30As all served on the "C" train in regular revenue service before going to the scrap heap. As a matter of fact, the "C" train was the last assignment of the GE R27s, all R30s (rebuilt and unrebuilt) and R30As as well as the bulk of the unrebuilt R10s and all rebuilt Green Hornet R10s before they were removed from revenue service.
I don't doubt that R27's and R30's ran on the C, but not in 1987 or 1988, as you claim. None ran there until after Archer Ave. opened on 12-11-88. Perhaps your dates are incorrect. From personal and extensive observation from the time periods in question, I can say they are.
Believe me, if I saw an R27 or R30 on the C line at the time you claimed they ran (1987/88) there (and I would have, since I rode the lines more than you, a mere commuter to/from work did), I would have taken notice immediatly. In fact, any time these cars did NOT run on the eastern division BMT lines during these years would've been an absolute shock to me.
Well you might as well be shocked, because they were not on the Eastern Division during the times that I stated. Also, I don't know how in the world you come to the conclusion that you rode the train more than I did, when you said that you went "surfing once to three times a week" versus me riding the train everyday as well as the fact that the train ran right past my window 20 hours a day, seven days a week. My God. If I wasn't riding them, I was looking at them every single day and night.
I'm not asking about regular service. I know that dosen't start 'till next August. But I heard here that the connector should be open for reroutes by the end of this year. Any idea when?
:)Andrew
It will be electrified (power turned on) in mid december. It will first be used to teach T/O's that will be using the track for revenue service the "nooks and crannies" of the connection.
-Harry
There is some confusion over whether the express tracks will be connected to the new line. MTA documents (Facts and Figures) say they will - others here on this site mention only the local tracks.
When I ride the E into Manhattan I don't feel or hear the train running over a switch as the floodlit section of tunnel goes by - so I assume the switches have not been installed yet(??)
The line is connected to both the Broadway and 6th Av lines - will both services be offered?
No confusion here. The 63 St.connector can be accessed by both Queens Exp. and Local trains. Next time you are on an "E" train, look out either the front or back of the train and you will see the switches.
Thanks - why didn't I think of that?
Probably because you have your head buried in the morning newspaper during your commute. Just like me! :)
I have to confess that I'm giddy about it opening, even for reroutes. I have this little secret wish on my inbound F train every morning that it will get rerouted down 63rd just for a change of pace.
Well, soon enough.
:)Andrew
Dear Sir/Madam
I am a regular subway rider who travels everyday. The poems that I have been seeing and reading are outdated and in need of some improvement. I consider myself a poet and believe I can contribute in this area. How can I get in touch with the MTA?
Yours sincerely,
ken. (circa 2000)
I was reading in todays Daily News about a LIRR wreck back in the 50's, I believe. Seventy-five people died. Can anybody shed some light on this?
Train#1896Mike
There were two of them,
Feb. 17th 1950 Rockville Centre 31 dead
Nov. 22nd 1950 Richmond Hill 79 dead
At least one of them had cars telescoping each other. I can't remember many details anymore.
Wasn't the Rockville Centre crash responsible for rebuilding the line on an embankment, to eliminate the grade crossings there?
BMTman
Wasn't the Rockville Centre crash responsible for rebuilding the line on an embankment, to eliminate the grade crossings there?
Quite the opposite - the crash occurred because the line was being rebuilt on an embankment. Temporary tracks were being used that didn't have sufficient clearance for two trains to pass in opposite directions.
Realy ... I too thought the opposite was true, thanks Peter.
Mr t__:^)
I seem to recall reading that the temporary track being used while the overpass was being constructed was a gantlet (sp?) track, making it an almost head-on collision.
subfan
That's correct. The left side running rails of each track overlapped each other.
As i understand, there was a similar arrangement on the Poughkeepsie Bridge of the New Haven Railroad in later years.
That would explain why the MP-54C got cut down the middle. They actually hit corner-to-corner, rather than full-frontal impact, which probably would have resulted in a telescope like at Richmond Hill.
wayne
A picture of each wreck can be found in the book "Steel Rails To The Sunrise" by Ron Ziel and George Foster. Copyright in 1965, this book may be out of print now. The two pictures, found on p. 270 show the terrible destruction of the cars involved.
I was delivering the Long Island Press at the time, and both wrecks were thoroughly covered in pictures and text in the paper at the time.
I wonder if there are any archives for this long gone newspaper!
Stan Fischler's "Next Stop,Grand Central", has some pertty gruesome pics,especially from the Forest Hills crash.Those early 50's were a pretty sad time for the area commuter railroads...First those LIRR wrecks, then the "Broker" disaster, THEN the incredible Jersey Central 'open bridge' mishap [according to Fischler, one poor schmoe ACTUALLY had been on 'The Broker', and then had the misfortune to be on that CRNJ train..but managed to survive both!], all within a four or five year period- no WONDER folks started RUNNING for their cars....!
The LIRR wrecks and the Jersey Central drawabridge mishap were eight years apart. (1950 and 1958).
The Rockville Center crash was the 'sideswipe' on the gantlet track, while Richmond Hill was the one where the one train never stopped in time and telescoped the train in front of it, landing on TOP of the last car of that train...UGH!
There were 2 major LIRR accidents. I believe they both occurred in 1950. One was at Richmond Hill -- I'm not sure of the details on that one. The second was at Rockville Centre during the construction to elevate the tracks there. Two trains collided head on at a point where the two tracks overlapped.
I'm not sure which wreck had more casualties, but both were bad.
And, if I'm not mistaken, these incidents led to the implementation of ASC.
Watch the crap!
Mark
Its called ATC or Automatic Train Control and the RoW based system had been active since the 1930's, but it is possible the MU's didn't have speed control units.
I believe the ATC system in place then *was* installed on the MUs, but didn't have train stopping capeabilities. I'm not sure though. The MUs might / might not have had ATC in them pre '50, but they most certainly were refitted with ASC afterwards
The definition of ATC is that it can stop the train. If not then they just had cab signals. I prefer ATC because on Amtrak its the LSL and on the LIAR its ASC when in reality they the same thing. No sence confusing people. All systems can be classified as Cab Signals (CSS), Automatic Train Stop (ATS), Automatic Train Control (ATC) and Automatic Train Operation (ATO). I'm just trying to keep it simple.
On the LIRR, it's called ASC, calling it anything else in that context without explaining as you eventually did WILL confuse people.
Watch the crap!
Mark
ATC is a generic term for anything that can control train speed based on the status of the line. It applies to all trains everywhere and the term should be familliar to any signaling fan and most railfans.
No, it is NOT called "ATC" on the Long Island Rail Road.
ATC is Automatic TRAIN Control.
Long Island Rail Road's system has been "ASC" (Automatic Speed Control), from day one of its usage. There is a big difference between ASC and ATC.
ATC is what PATCO, WMATA, BART, etc. has. It will fully control the train in all functions.
LIRR's ASC will give engineers indications as to the maximum speed their train should be travelling at, depending on SIGNALS. In the older setups (pre-1968) there were three indications: 15, 30, and MAS (Maximum Allowable Speed). Since 1968 the system has been upgraded and now has seven indications.
The way the system worked pre-1968, if a signal begins to restrict train movement from "CLEAR", the ASC would give the lower indication as needed, and blow a whistle. The engineer had to step on an "acknowlegement pedal" and begin to slow the train down to the proper speed as required by the new signal indication. If the engineer did not do these things within a certain time interval, the air dumped into emergency and the train stopped. Then they had to pump up the air to get going again. I don't think I ever saw this happen though; that whistle that blew was loud enough to wake the dead, so engineers were on the ball about acknowledgement and speed reduction.
The system that PATCO and BART etc uses is ATO or Automatic Train Operation. ATC is any safety system where a train's speed is controled depending on fixed signal indication. ATO is a form of ATC, but ATC does not imply ATO. Most ACT systems use an penalty brake application if the train goes overspeed and an enforced brake pipe reduction if the aspect drops down. Both the LIAR ASC and the Amtrak/Conrail LSL preform the same function and are both refered to as ATC. PATCO's ATC has the ability to accelerate the train and stop for reasons other than cab signal so it is ATO. The old New York central system and the Chicago Northwestern used(s) an intermittant Automatic Train Stop that can only halt the train if it passes a red signal. The coded cab signal based ATC systems in the US usually use a 4 aspect system for the 4 speeds (normal, limited, medium and slow) The LIAR setup would have to be compatable w/ at least these 4 speeds because they are used by Amtrak and into Penn Station.
The LIRR (it is NOT LIAR, when you gonna learn that?) system has had SEVEN aspects since after 1968. Before that, it only had three -- 15, 30, MAS -- and that was when LIRR was the only one in Penn Station that had it.
New Haven also had some cab signal system in their FL-9's and EP-5's when I rode in them in the 1960's, but I never saw it in use anywhere that I rode those units (Penn or GCT to Boston along entire NH main). I think they may have beeninuse on the NH-Springfield line though.
What are the 7 new aspects? I know that in and around Penn Station their system would have to be compatable with NORAC's 4 aspect system and that probably means eliminating 3 aspects. BTW the LIAR (Long Island 'Ail Road) takes you to New York Pig Station. If you still don't get it go back in time to last November.
LIRR ASC aspects are 0 15 30 40 55 65 80,
as seen on the ASC device/speedometer in the cab of any train.
What track circut codes does each speed use. For the standard PRR/NORAC/Metro-North system the pulses per second are 0, 75, 120 and 180. Does this system work on a greater than basis? I know that there are 2 new cab signals on the Shore Line 125 mph and 150mph. I would guess that the standard cab signal display would show clear for anything >= 180 pulses. Can a 4 aspect cab signal work on the LIAR's 7 aspect system? The LIAR evidently can work on a 4 aspect signaled line.
I trust that a loss of code means 0 mph, but how does the LIAR deal with Stop and Proceede signals, cab signal failure and the issuing of C cards to pass a red signal?
Hey, Jersey, Why do you call the Long Island RR LIAR?
Don't remember LIAR to New York-Pig Station?
Last November or December our friend Pork: The Other White Meat (nee Pigs of Royal Island) was changing his handle every other day. One of his handles was "LIAR to New York Pig Station". I was so struck by how funny and creative and TRUE turning that R to an A was that I desided then and there to always refer to it was the LIAR.
I'm _fairly_ sure that the new cab signal codes for the NE
corridor high speed service are audio frequency overlay codes
in the kiloHertz range which only rolling stock specially
equipped can receive. To ordinary cars with 4-aspect cab
signals these frequencies do not affect the operation and
they would continue to display a clear.
In terms of circuits, conventional ASC equipment doesn't exactly
work on a >= basis. There are separate detectors using tuned
decoding transformers for each of the 3 coding frequencies.
There is a tolerance range which is pretty tight, maybe 3 or 4
pulses per minute. If you were to send, say a 90 code into the
rails none of the detectors would pick up and you'd get a no-code.
No-code, under NORAC rules, is different from a no-code under
transit conditions. The most restrictive cab signal indication
is Restricting, and that is what is given for a no-code. If they
want you to stop they put up a wayside signal.
No-code, under NORAC rules, is different from a no-code under
transit conditions. The most restrictive cab signal indication
is Restricting, and that is what is given for a no-code. If they
want you to stop they put up a wayside signal.
But the LI(A)RR is not transit, its a full FRA railroad that's shares some of its route with freight trains and Amtrak. On ATO transit lines like PATCO it is essential that a no-code means 0 mph because train can be running sans driver input. A very important part of Railroads (vs transit) is the use of permissive operations. If a train is in a block all the trains behind it will get a no-code. I have seen Stop and Proceede signals on the LI"A"R so if a no-code means 0 mph the train operator would have to cut out ATC in order to proceede. Not a very safe practice. A no-code should result in a restricting speed and remaining safety responsibility should be given to the highly trained and highly professional engineer. If a no-code really does mean 0 mph then why do they keep Stop and Proceede signals? How could the NY&A freight trains w/ the same cab signal system operate?
PS: If the LIAR has full ATC why dosen't it operate trains above the 79 mph FRA non-ATC speed limit. If they aren't going to enjoy the benefits of ATC when why even use ATC?
As for the speed limits on the LIRR -- when the M-1's were new, they were tested up to 100 miles an hour.
Problem was, at that speed, the train would hit a crossing before the gates got all the way down due to the length of crossing protection signal circuits! (This is true, I'm not kidding.)
Rather than rewire and reblock the track signal circuits, the LIRR has decided to stay with an 80 mile-an-hour speed limit.
"Your saftey is our number one concern."
Any reason that they didn't decide to let the MAS be 100 (or some other "safe" speed) in non-grade-crossing territory?
Watch the crap!
Mark
A no-code is 0 mph, I have seen a cab signal flashing 0 very briefly
when the normal aspect is something else. I would assume that they
would cut out the ASC for a stop and proceed, but that should occur
very rarely because a train would have to be in the same block as the train
front of it. This happens only at Jamaica.
And the LIRR does go faster than 79: the maximum speed is 80.
The FRA permits you to fudge it to 80. Conrail did. I find it hard to believe that on a railroad as busy as the LIAR there isn't more Stop and Proceed running. I hate to say it, but I think that Metro-North has adopted a somewhat wiser approach.
/*New Haven also had some cab signal system in their FL-9's and EP-5's when I rode in them in the 1960's, but I never saw it in use anywhere that I rode those units (Penn or GCT to Boston along entire NH main). I think they may have beeninuse on the NH-Springfield line though.
*/
Oh man, if ONLY the EP-5s and other electrics could go to Springfield :(
What were the '5s like anyway? I know they were loud and prone to catching on fire, but how did they otherwise perform/sound/ride, etc? And did they really sound like jets when running?
Yes, they did sound like jets -- especially when in the confines of GCT or Penn Station tunnels. (The New York Central motors wee just as loud, but seemed to be higher in pitch. They didn't sound as "strong" as the EP-5's).
the one thing I didn't like riding in the cabs of the EP-5's -- it depended on which was the unit was turned -- there was the huge steam generator in one of the cabs, and if it was lit up, it was HOT.
The EP-5's rode well too, but they were somewhat heavy and had the six-wheel trucks.
/*The way the system worked pre-1968, if a signal begins to restrict train movement from "CLEAR", the ASC would give the lower indication as needed, and blow a whistle. The engineer had to step on an "acknowlegement pedal" and begin to slow the train down to the proper speed as required by the new signal indication. If the engineer did not do these things within a certain time interval, the air dumped into emergency and the train stopped. Then they had to pump up the air to get going again. I don't think I ever saw this happen though; that whistle that blew was loud enough to wake the dead, so engineers were on the ball about acknowledgement and speed reduction. */
You forgot the part that makes it so much fun - the old MUs didn't have a speedo in them :)
And those AMUE brakes probbably weren't to great either. So droping from MAS to 30 would probbably result in a bit of an earache for a while. But then, what was the top speed of the '54s anyway? 60? 70?
From what I have read most of the MP-54 did a maximum of 54 mph in service. They had straight AC motors and very poor acceleration. The MP-85's were about 1000 times better.
Agreed on both parts there....though the MP72's and MP75's when in solid consists of such cars, could do a little bit better onthe top speed than the MP54's.
Oh yeah, no speedometer....that WAS tricky to deal with.
I don't remember the brakes making that much noise when going through a reduction. But you didn't want to be in the cabs when an engineer dumped the air.....
It also has NOT been active since the 1930's. LIRR first used ASC in the early 1950's.
Cab Signals have been installed on the LIAR since the 30's. Cab signals are combined with an on board device to limit train speed.
When are you going to learn it is the Long Island Rail Road...LIRR???
The LIRR did NOT have cab signals in conjuction with safety devices to stop trains when signals are restrictive until after 1950.
Had they had some sort of system to stop a train passing a restrictive signal, NEITHER of those nasty wrecks that happened in 1950 would have happened. Both were attributed to engineers/motormen failing to slow down or stop for restrictive signals.
The LIRR did NOT have cab signals in conjuction with safety devices to stop trains when signals are restrictive until after 1950.
Yes, I agree. I was pointing out that they had Cab Signals installed without the locomotive side ATC equipment called ASC. The PRR did install ATC on its hi-speed passenger trains as mandated by the FRA for 79+mph operation.
Karl B is correct - (the death toll in the February 17 1950 crash was 32) - here is some more info -
The February 17 1950 crash occurred just around Morris Avenue (right near the firehouse) on temporary track (they were in the process of elevating the Rockville Centre station). It involved an MP-54A and an MP-54C arch roof car. It was a head-on crash, with full frontal impact. The MP-54C was basically split down the center by the MP-54A (which was also heavily damaged) as it bounced off the center of the sill. I believe the majority of the casualties occurred in the MP-54C car.
The November 22 1950 crash occurred on the main line west of Jamaica, just about where it crosses Metropolitan Avenue, on the embankment. A 12-car train to Hempstead had its brakes sieze as it tried to start up from a "stop" signal and it was unable to move forward. This train was hit in the twelfth car (an MP-54A) by Train No.174 to Babylon travelling at or in excess of 60 MPH. The lead motor of this train was an MP-54A1. This car telescoped the twelfth car of the Hempstead train almost its entire length, (all but about ten feet), lifting this coach into the air and driving its forward end through the vestibule of the eleventh car and into its seating area. 79 people died in this crash; with the majority in the last car of the Hempstead train but a significant number in the lead car of the Babylon train as well, including the engineer. They had to lift the twelfth car of the Hempstead train off of the first car of the Babylon train with a winch because they had become interlocked in the crash - the Hempstead train's last car was wrapped neatly around the first car of the Babylon train.
wayne
Thanks Wayne! You really know your stuff, it helped refresh my memory on a lot of details.
Didn't the Rockville Centre crash happen on gauntlet tracks, 2 tracks that overlap each other?? If I recall correctly thats how the head on occured. They were on separate tracks going in opposite directions but sort of sharing the same space.
By the way, something that hasn't been mentioned about the Queens wreck was that it was on Thanksgiving Eve.
The train out of Penn Station in the Rockville Centre crash was the one Sandy Koufax's parents normally took home from work (the family lived in Rockville Centre for a time before moving back to Brooklyn). As fate would have it, they just missed that train.
11/03/2000
Try Stan Fischler's book "Next Stop- Grand Central". Pictures of both wrecks are in the book.
Bill "Newkirk"
Wasn't there also a wreck in somewhere in the vicinity of Central Islip near the psychiatric hospital? I remeber reading in a Sunday edition of Newsday about 15 years ago how Sidney Siben (founder of the Bay Shore law firm of Siben & Siben) was on the scene handing out his business cards to the injured before help had arrived.
A true ambulance chaser in every sense of the word. Suffolk County was so rural that the Rescue Squads were overwhelmed.
Hahahahaha! Sidney Siben was ALWAYS the Bay Shore ambulance chaser!!! I remember him being that way when I was a kid living in Brightwaters, he had that reputation then in the mid-1960's!!!
There WAS a LIRR wreck at Pilgrim State Hospital around the time frame you mention -- from what I remember,it was an Alco C420 (202??) and some vandals had broken a switchlock and threw a switch from the mainline to a hospital spur and a train wrecked when it was sent around the curve to the spur. I think the cars on the train were P54's also.
That happened sometime in early part of 1971, February something - don't remember the exact day (Feb. 16? Feb. 15?) anyway Steve H is correct some vandals threw a siding switch and a diesel went into the spur at speed (nasty curve there) threw the loco and the first coach, which was one of the old 7400-series (ex. 400 series, yes I do believe they were P54 of some kind) car #7452 (ex.#452) attempted to mount the loco and the floor was mushed up almost to the ceiling at the forward end. There was a picture in the Long Island Press of a row of seats touching the ceiling fan (this car had paddle fans similar to those in the R-1/9 - Did other P54/MP54 cars have these fans too?) and IIRC there was at least one, perhaps a few, fatalities among the passengers.
That siding is still there pretty much but they rearranged the spur so it is off of the main line and has an approach track. One of these days I'm gonna go out there and explore that spur if I can (I'll go into the woods next to the golf course).
wayne
Yes, most of the P54/MP54 car had those big fans in them. All they did was blow the stink already in the cars around in circles. They did nothing to cool things down. :-)
They also did little to cool down the R-1/9 class cars either. Opening the windows worked better but was murder on the eardrums. The LIRR cars' windows didn't open, did they? (The diesel coaches' windows didn't open - and the A/C blowers recirculated the stench which emanated from THEM [ those with lavatories ] as well).
wayne
The LIRR cars' windows didn't open, did they?
The M1s were the first cars that did not have windows that opened...
No... that's not right either, the Worlds Fair cars were sealed too, weren't they? Well, I certainly remember opening the older ones.
Elias
Yes, the Zip's and '72 were the first sealed ones. What were the '54s like, anyway? How did they ride, accelerate, noise, etc?
They rode like crap. Lots of "hunting" and they didn't take rough spots too well. Perhaps they rode better when new, but in the 1950's and 1960's when I rode them, it was like a tugboat in a typhoon.
Noise? They had the usual "old m.u. car" humming/grinding due to the way the gears were cut between the motors and axles.
Acceleration was, well, fair. They wren't exactly rocket ships....but they weren't slow, either. It basically depended on how many motors and unmotorized trailers were in a train. LIRR mixed all the car types together -- but when you got a solid, totally motored set of MP72's (VERY rare) or MP75's (somewhat rare after the first year or so), they had some pretty good acceleration.
That siding is still there pretty much but they rearranged the spur so it is off of the main line and has an approach track. One of these days I'm gonna go out there and explore that spur if I can (I'll go into the woods next to the golf course).
That's the Pilgrim State siding near the Deer Park station, not the Central Islip siding. At which one did the wreck occur?
That is correct; the wreck occurred at the Deer Park siding, west of the (then) Pine Aire station.
Is there a spur off the line near Central Islip too? I'd like to know where that one leaves the line. I remember one in Kings Park but that's mostly gone now (some track remains on the former hospital grounds but the switch off the main line has been removed).
thanks
wayne
Is there a spur off the line near Central Islip too? I'd like to know where that one leaves the line. I remember one in Kings Park but that's mostly gone now (some track remains on the former hospital
grounds but the switch off the main line has been removed).
It's completely gone. Most likely, it was obliterated during the line's electrification in the 1980's. You can still trace the right of way from south of the station parking area all the way through to the former hospital power station. Based on this alignment, I would imagine that the switch was located about where the south-side platform is now located.
Wayne, I have some 1950's maps of the Hospital sidings to Pilgrim State and Central Islip on my LIRR History website.
Ah what a tour! Kings Park brings back some experiences for me (I worked in the Village near the station from 1996 to 1998) and had occasion to visit the Hospital proper in 1989 and 1990. I DID see the ROW in 1989.
Is Creedmoor a work-in-progress? I had occasion to visit there in 1961, 1962, and then from 1987 to 1991.
wayne
>>>Is Creedmoor a work-in-progress? I had occasion to visit there in 1961, 1962, and then from 1987 to 1991. <<<
Well that explains alot! 8-)
(sorry I just couldn't resist)
Peace,
ANDEE
Not me, my Grandfather (Alzheimers) then my Brother-In-Law (don't ask)
wayne
It more like "things to come" rather than "works in progress".
Ah what a tour! Kings Park brings back some experiences for me (I worked in the Village near the station from 1996 to 1998) and had occasion to visit the Hospital proper in 1989 and 1990. I DID see the ROW in 1989.
Is Creedmoor a work-in-progress? I used to play in the woods near there in 1968, 1969 and 1970. The tracks were still intact south of Hillside Avenue and along the ROW to the main line at Floral Park, as well as in the hospital grounds itself.
wayne
I was reading in todays Daily News about a LIRR wreck back in the 50's, I believe. Seventy-five people died. Can anybody shed some light on this?
Train#1896Mike
I read in the chief that the MTA is hiring train operators off the new list from exam #9058. Two questions, 1st Anyone know how many operators The MTA will be hired within the next year or so? 2nd Since NYC MTA is the parent company of the NYC TA, how easly would it be for a qualified Subway motorman to transfer to The LIRR or Metro-North as a Locomotive Engineer?
Answer #1: When the test was first announced, it was stated that NYC Transit was looking to hire 350 operators a year "for the next few years."
Answer #2: It's my understanding that being qualified to operate a NYC subway train has no bearing on the qualifications to be a railroad engineer. I imagine that - similar to NYC Transit's previous practice of only allowing their employees to take the exam for train operator as a promotional opportunity - only current Metro-North or LIRR employees are eligible to take the engineer exam.
Also remember LIRR and MNRR are under FRA rules where NYCTA is not. A whole different ball game.
The NYPD did a horrible job of maintaining and being fair to the crowds...to the point where yours truly nearly got arrested. I'm not going to go any further on this in here since my post is off-topic, but I would be happy (and would like to discuss) this with fellow subtalkers, especially if anyone knows [someone personally] or is apart of New York's finest. Nickmeister@Hotmail.com -Nick
Has the second edition of...
Twelve Historical NY City Transit Maps
found its way to area shelves yet?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I ordered and prepaid a copy of this directly from the publisher, H & M Productions, at the Fall Trolley Extravaganza in King of Prussia, PA in September. He said the book would be ready in November.
...and not by the method you usually hear by converting the Port Washington Branch into a subway extension.
Since the PA was so hot to build a Train-To-The-Plane along the Van Wyck to JFK, why not use the same principle and build an el branch from the #7 in Flushing Meadows, first along the Van Wyck and then along the LIE out to Little Neck Parkway?
Ah, but the NIMBYs won't let them. The South Jamaica NIMBYs didn't have enough clout to stop the TTTP from bein g rammed through.
Anyway, your proposed stops for the new #8 line, branching from the #7 in Flushing Meadows would be Queensboro Hill, Queens College, 164th St, Francis Lewis, Bell Blvd (lots of apartment buildings there that could use a subway branch), Oakland Gardens, Marathon, Little Neck.
Why not?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't think that many of the near-pastoral Eastern Queens communities would want to see the building boom, noise, construction disruption, and vagrancy subway lines seem to carry as unintended side effects. Some people actually seek to avoid the hurly burly of a neighborhood supported by an extensive rapid transit network, elevated or underground.
The Van Wyck does not have that many residences abutting it from Shea Stadium to the LIE, so this would be a waste of trackage IMO. Instead, why not tunnel our Fantasy 7 Train deeply under Main Street to the LIE where it would rise again and run above the LIE to Springfield Blvd, turn south and tunnel deeply underground again, and extend to Union Turnpike? Buses would then be able to feed whatever few outlying commuters who don't wish to use the Port Washington Branch to this line at several new stations along Springfield Boulevard.
Since stations on the original IRT were never designed with 11 car train service in mind, stations on this Fantasy 7 Train will have to be spaced wider and more strategically using the length of the trains to bridge two major thoroughfares whenever possible. The first stop from Main Street would be Booth Memorial Avenue (system southern end of station, extending system northward to just short of the LIE); followed by Kissena-Parsons Blvds stopping in between the two; Utopia Parkway (extending system northward to just short of the 188 Street shopping area); Francis Lewis Blvd; Bell Blvd (system northern end of station); Springfield/Horace Harding (curved station maybe?); 73rd Avenue; Union Turnpike (system southern end of station).
While we're at it, run these trains as a high-speed, no-stop super express between Main Street Flushing and Queensboro Plaza during rush hours on a modified center track on the existing ROW, and make this the through service to/from Union Turnpike during these hours. Have all trains running local between QBP and MSF terminate at Main Street Flushing in a fashion similar to Bronx rush hour 6 service. Yum!
The purpose of mass transit as I see it is not to serve everybody, but to serve as many people as possible with as little disturbance to anybody as possible. This line seems to me less obtrusive than extending it into the sparsely populated no-mans-land of northeastern Queens which is already adequately served by the upscale LIRR.
I am tickled that there are still people who dream about what we can do with the subway. The ideas I'm hearing are really good - maybe one day we'll see them inspire real progress.
One note about NIMBYs and vagrants: The Jamaica NIMBYs who opposed AirTrain (the link to Kennedy) totalled a couple of dozen people at most, and never represented the prevailing opinion in their communities. In fact, anecdotal evidence suggests that folks living along the Van Wyck are very satisfied with the manner that the train has been constructed. I am not saying that all concerns should be dismissed - only that we be honest and realistic about them.
As to vagrants: As I've said elsewhere on this site, modern rapid transit lines discourage vagrants by encouraging more business and pedestrian traffic, and spurring development in decaying neighborhoods. Linking subways to low-life visitors is often a "code" for old-fashioned racism - and ignorance.
Of course, the subway may not be appropriate everywhere - and where it does get built, homeowners will need good lawyers to avoid being "taken" by certain greedy or unscrupulous developers. Zoning will be an issue as well.
On Fri Nov 3 13:49:32 2000, RonInBayside dropped his pants and squeezed out this turd:
" . . . modern rapid transit lines discourage vagrants by encouraging more business and pedestrian traffic, and spurring development in decaying neighborhoods. Linking subways to low-life visitors is often a "code" for old-fashioned racism - and ignorance."
Vagrancy, dear sir, was only one of many points I said that people make about not wanting rapid transit in their neighborhood. "Vagrancy" could also mean that people who would not have otherwise gotten to, or had any reason to get to, a certain neighborhood can now access that neighborhood while still not having a reason to be there. Do you visit places that have no reasonable attraction for you? Well, people on the subway do, and sometimes bring a bit of the place they visited back with them to whatever rock they live under or cause their host neighborhood to look a bit like their residence neighborhood. Does it happen frequently? I don't think so, but it happens often enough to make whole communities think twice about passively allowing rapid transit projects to proceed.
You make a "modern rapid transit line" out to be this Utopia that, in your universe, people would be selling their right arm to obtain for their burgh. In fact, do the only two "modern rapid transit lines" in New York -- The Archer Avenue tunnel and the 63rd Street tunnel -- cause neighborhoods that were once a human cesspool and an ornery housing project respectively, to become the pre-eminent hotbeds of human industry and harmony? I think not. When was the last time you took your family to visit some fine ethnic restaurant in Queensbridge or hung around Archer Avenue for more time than it takes to board an LIRR train, huh?
"Racist" factual and unabashed rant aside, people do regularly choose to live outside the scope of mass transit because they do not want increased transient or alien pedestrian traffic, businesses that cater to it, the rumble of underground or elevated subway trains every two minutes or "spurred development" BECAUSE THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD WAS NOT DECAYING IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!
Now do you see how a rapid transit line has the potential for reducing an upscale neighborhood to some lower common denominator -- the same denominator that may very well be a huge step up for a blighted shell of a neighborhood well past its better days?
I'm not finished with you yet. You suggested my view on vagrancy was racist. I simply attempted to explain how those who have built some degree of equity in themselves or their neighborhood have every right to want to preserve or increase it. Therefore, my arguments supporting a neighborhood not wanting a train line running through it were financial and sociological, and not racial, you mealy-mouthed bastard.
By the way, do you really live in Bayside? Well, if you want a train line running near you because it provides such a panacea, why not move out of Bayside and into Crown Heights, Bedford Stuyvesant, East New York, Harlem or The Hub and put your money where your big fat mouth is?
* * * * * *
GENERAL MESSAGE TO ALL WHO FREQUENT THIS BOARD -- I will not, nor should anybody else who posts to this board, tolerate accusations of racism if they are used as a weapon by those without the intelligence to formulate a constructive emotionless argument refuting my claims; Nor will I abandon or dilute my opinions because someone lacks the courage or base to refute them the same.
OOOOoooo......
There is SMOKE coming out of my computer.
Racism is a fact of life.
A nasty, unfair fact to be sure,
but a fact nonetheless.
Some people do not want other sorts of people to come into thier neighborhoods, or into their lives. Thier loss, perhaps.
Even the best neighborhoods on Long Island still have roudy, untame beasts preying on thier streets. (swallow hard, ok- they actually *do* live here, and are the same color as me.)
There is no answer to a person's fears....
They are afraid of other folk coming to thier part of town...
Well, that is thier fear, and they own it, and probably never be able to change it, even if they do hide it beind more palipable (according to them) words.
The absence of a subway train will not stop other kinds of people from moving into your neighborhood, but it will stop random people from having random access. It also bottles up in the neighborhood the same sort of (local) ruffians that might otherwise have taken a train out.
Who is to say?
There is no answer.
Understanding?
Of others, or of yourself?
Yes.
Elias
Downtown Glen Cove isn't exactly the kind of place you'd like to hang out after dark, and transit access is very poor. Glen Cove and surrounding areas would be much more like Great Neck, Manhasset, and Port Washington (better economy, home values) if the Oyster Bay branch had been electrified.
Glen Cove and surrounding areas would be much more like Great Neck, Manhasset, and Port Washington (better economy, home values) if the Oyster Bay branch had been electrified.
It would be like HEMPstead and West HEMPstead.
To Silver Fox:
Yes, I frequent Jamaica Center quite a bit, have eaten there, walked there, taken the LIRR there, taken the subway there. I've seen it before the Archer Avenue tunnel, and after. It took fifteen years to get the place better - and yes, it is a hotbed of development activity.
It also happens to be a predominantly minority neighborhood. That's not a problem for me, but it does appear to be a problem for you.
I'm glad you wrote, but I do feel sorry for you. The hatred and bigotry you expressed was clear for everyone to see.
"'Vagrancy' could also mean that people who would not have otherwise gotten to, or had any reason to get to, a certain
neighborhood can now access that neighborhood while still not having a reason to be there." - SilverFox
"....without a reason to be there." Not to raise any tempers here, but quite simply , this IS a free country, where people have the right to conduct their business, travels, and conduct other apsects of theirs lifes wherever they please! No one needs a "reason" to satisfy anyone else. No one was the right to interfere with other people's activities and choices in this nation - including where they live. The people in the neighborhoods you described have every right to choose where they live - and the OTHER people do as well!
Disapproving of new transit lines in order to keep people (of any race) out of an area is downright horrible. (Yes, this is not your only reason, but it is one of the reasons nonetheless.) And yes, I do live in New York and I do understand run-down neighborhoods - but taking potshots and labelling heighborhoods a "human cesspool" doesn't make it any better for anyone.
I don't know if you comments were racist (although after your response...) and I DO NOT want to get into that.
You do, however, seem to believe that transit, a very vital part of this city's infrastructure and historic economic success, is an inconceivably horrid plague upon the land. The first word that comes to mind concerning this attitude really is "NIMBY".
Again, this is not to raise tempers or to create controversy, but I did not expect to see this post here.
Of course Glen Cove and Sea Cliff residents were upset and electrification of the Oyster Bay line because it would lead to urban decay and "vagrancy". Well look at Glen Cove now. Rows of empty stores (even the new Ranch 1 on Glen closed). Decaying streets and sidewalks (especially around Glen st. station and Sea Cliff). Lots of hispanic immigrants living downtown. Peeing on sidewalks (downtown smells like urine). Drugs and gang problems, I've seen empty syringes in CVS parking lot and by N21,27 bus stop. Traffic congestion. All of the problems NIMBY's feared electrification would bring are here anyway.
The only decent part of Glen Cove where two strip malls are,as well as Farmers Bazaar and Stop and Shop supermarkets on Forest avenue, is not accesible by bus (N21 and N27 terminate downtown).
I really do hate this (Glen Cove-Sea Cliff) area. You got backward people in planning and denial that there is a problem, making it impossible to get around and improvement of run down areas a slow and nearly impossible job. I think alot of it has to do with poor OB line service. If the line was electrified, service improved areas around the train stations (downtown) would see more commuters moving in, and business would find these areas more profitable, providing a real turnaround for run down Glen Cove. Property values would also improve.
Bravo to somebody who really makes some sense.
Studies by the Port Authority and others have proven that property values rise near modern rapid transit stations. Proof: Roosevelt Island, Jamaica Center. In Atlanta, one bedroom apts. near MARTA rail cost at least $100 more in rent per month than in areas not served by MARTA. Washington DC suburbs such as Bethesda reacted similarly to the introduction of Metrorail service. To be fair, housing density increased, as well. This increases the relative enery-efficiency of an area, but does not always sit well with those who prefer single-family home living. But in no case did property values, or economic activity, fall.
In Boston, the completion of the Red Line extension north of Harvard in the 1980's also made possible the creation of a new wildlife preserve at Alewife (which is also the name of the fish found in its creek).
Also, please note that the prosperity and property values in Forest Hills and the like would never have been realized were it not for the decision to build the Queens Blvd. IND service in the 1940's.
Transit is not a panacea, however, and further away from the stations the neighborhood looks more unchanged. The ultimate positive impact is delivered by private investors or public and private investors who step into the market during or after transit line completion.
Yes, it can be very difficult to get progress sometimes. And, yes, I also believe that improved service could only help a community. In my neighborhood in Queens there are two transit lines, the LIRR (in the southern part) and several bus routes (admittedly, not the greatest bus lines). The assorted stores and shops that line the larger streets would never see the business that they do without the transit services present. A fair number of people I see here do not drive (including a large number of senior citizens - believe me, their dollars count!),and parking is atrocious anyway (from personal experience here).
turnstiles:
I'm not exactly sure where your neighborhood is but if you're in the southern part of Queens they could extend the IND Queens Blvd./Hillside Ave. line to the Nassau border and if your near enough to Bayside they could extend the IRT #7 line to the Nassau border at that point.
BMTJeff
Heck, I'll take either line! Queens is so depauperate of rail transit lines that I can't be too opposed to most extension plans. I do, however, favor, the IND extension because the #7 line has an intense (90 seconds or so, in rush hours) headway on both local and express services, and has only three lines. The IND line's local tracks are (certainly) not filled to capacity even in rush hours (IMHO). And with the G line on the way out, even more room should be available on this line.
Sorry, I said that the LIRR runs throught the southern part of my neighborhood, not that my neighborhood is in southern Queens! Sorry for the confusion. I also don't live in Jamaica/Bayside, but I have more than a passing familiarity with this area since elementary school, which is why I felt ready to write some of my earlier posts. I have studied in libraries there, taken a number of college classes there, travelled to friends' places, eaten (in a number of restaurants and fast food places - I prefer to cook at home when possible), performed in music association (children's) piano contests, and done a number of other things in the area (including railfanning - :) ).
Oops, I meant that the #7 train had only three tracks, not lines. Sorry!
-turnstiles
turnstiles:
I agree with with that Queens is depauperate of rapid transit lines that extending or adding rapid transit lines would be an excellent idea. Maybe a few more rapid transit lines could help to improve that quality of life for those Queens residents who lack ready access to rapid transit in their neighborhood.
BMTJeff
Of course Glen Cove and Sea Cliff residents were upset and electrification of the Oyster Bay line because it would lead to urban decay and "vagrancy". Well look at Glen Cove now. Rows of empty stores (even the new Ranch 1 on Glen closed). Decaying streets and sidewalks (especially around Glen st. station and Sea Cliff). Lots of hispanic immigrants living downtown. Peeing on sidewalks (downtown smells like urine). Drugs and gang problems, I've seen empty syringes in CVS parking lot and by N21,27 bus stop. Traffic congestion. All of the problems NIMBY's feared electrification would bring are here anyway.
The only decent part of Glen Cove where two strip malls are,as well as Farmers Bazaar and Stop and Shop supermarkets on Forest avenue, is not accesible by bus (N21 and N27 terminate downtown).
I really do hate this (Glen Cove-Sea Cliff) area. You got backward people in planning and denial that there is a problem, making it impossible to get around and improvement of run down areas a slow and nearly impossible job. I think alot of it has to do with poor OB line service. If the line was electrified, service improved areas around the train stations (downtown) would see more commuters moving in, and business would find these areas more profitable, providing a real turnaround for run down Glen Cove. Property values would also improve.
P.S. Repost since my computer got stuck, sorry
>>>If the line was electrified, service improved areas around the train stations (downtown) would see more commuters moving in, and business would find these areas more profitable, providing a real turnaround for run down Glen Cove. Property values would also improve.<<<
Tell that to the residents of Wyandanch. They got their LIRR service electrified a few years back and the place is still a horrendous pit.
If Oyster Bay service were to be electrified tomorrow, Glen Cove would still be in sorry shape.
Isn't it weird that there is such a vast difference in communities separated by one station stop?(not town, but stop) Glen Cove is horrible while you couldn't buy a refridgerator box for $300,000 in Locust Valley. Same thing with Lawrence and Inwood.
Just being a devil's advocate:
Aren't the Flushing Line trains filled to capacity already with very close headways? Where would you put the extra people??
I've always thought it would be better to tunnel the #7 from main St north to Northern Blvd and the nunder Northern Blvd, which would bring many more people to the subway then using the LIE as a ROW
Or how about an entirely different system being built. With congestion in Nassau getting severe in spots, why not build a line that runs within Nassau and connects to various subway and LIRR in Queens?
Unfortunately though NIMBY's will probably kill our dreams.
You would need WAY MORE than just one line in Nassau; you would need an entire network of lines with the backbone, a four-track line, going right down Hempstead Turnpike from Elmont to Hempstead to Levittown to Babylon via Route 109 AND to the Route 110 Corridor via Farmingdale. It could be hooked up with the LIRR at Belmont Park with a huge parking garage next to the CI Parkway (but distanced from the nearby homes). Another branch would have to be somewhere north; perhaps Union Turnpike/Marcus Avenue/Nassau Boulevard. Yet another branch would have to serve the Five Towns/Lynbrook area.
Please don't hurl stones or gasoline bombs at me - this is just a pipe dream I know but someday Nassau might need something like this or it will choke to death on its own traffic. Western Suffolk is getting like this too.
wayne
I have designed a BAHN layout of a Nassau subway style system with quite a few lines. A four track line down Hempstead tpke from Farmingdale. The section east of Hempstead is wide enough, but west of Hempstead the express tracks will be at a lower level. It will connect to Sutphin Blvd and Jamaica Center for LIRR and E,J,Z, and the F at the Sutphin Blvd station.
Alot of express trains will run between Jamaica and Roosevelt Field.
A light rail designed for the HUB, as well as a line under Jericho Tpke to Flushing. Also there would be lines serving the north shore, the traffic up here is impossible, we need a solution.
Email me and I'll send you the LIRT (Long Island Rapid Transit) BAHN layout. Well someday it's gotta happen, when the NIMBY's are long gone and thrown out by militant socialists! :-)
[It will connect to Sutphin Blvd and Jamaica Center for LIRR and E,J,Z, and the F at the Sutphin Blvd station. ]
But these lines are already at capacity with no way to increase it.
Perhaps connecting at ENY could work.
Arti
The Long Island Rail Road Port Washington Branch already adequately serves the area immediately north of Northern Boulevard. It offers a 34 minute ride to Penn Station from Little Neck while the 7 Train is hard pressed covering the distance from Main Street to Times Square in the same time. As an express.
Additionally, the LIRR PW Branch provides generous local service within Queens -- a distance of Little Neck to Main Street with five stations in between -- for only something like $1.75.
What traffic would the 7 train realize in pax traveling entirely between Little Neck and Main Street? Very little, I would imagine. And those under existing circumstances not wishing to wait up-to an hour for a ride on the Railroad are covered by the Q12 and Q13 buses that run more frequently.
Other than price, what advantage would extremely Eastern Queens riders see in riding a slower train to approximately the same Manhattan destination as the LIRR? More frequent service? If price weren't an object, what would you rather do -- board an awaiting 7 train at Little Neck and take approximately 75 to 90 minutes to get to Times Square, or wait up-to 59 minutes* for the next LIRR train that will take you to a similar destination (a difference of only 7 blocks to Times Square, and three or four avenues to Grand Central) in 34 minutes?
You would rather keep moving on the 7 Train you say? Well, I would rather spend the 59 minutes* asleep; Or with my girlfriend; Or getting a nice meal. Anything but be locked in a slow-rolling box with all kinds of junk peddlers, panhandling skells, and even the possibility of not getting a seat and having to stand the entire way.
The LIE is at least one mile south of Northern Boulevard and there are tremendous numbers of people between Union Turnpike and 48th Avenue who would stand to benefit from this service than having to trudge up to the LIRR or down to the ghastly F-Train. Keep the ROW above the LIE.
*Very few people wait 59 minutes on an LIRR platform waiting for the next train if they just missed one. If they know the following train won't arrive for an hour, they will keep themselves occupied with something else, and the time will be theirs. My point is that I would rather have the difference in travel time (75-90 minutes of continuous travel on the Fantasy Northern Blvd 7 Train versus 34 minutes on the LIRR) to do what I want rather than spend it in transit, no pun intended.
Why not run frequent (every 10 minutes) shuttles between Willets Point and Great Neck. Terminal and reversing facilities are already in place at both these stations.
Change the bus routing to terminate at Murray Hill, Broadway, Auburndale, Bayside, Douglaston or Little Neck. Everything north of the LIE would terminate at one of these stations instead of going into Flushing.
The money saved from shorter bus routes and fewer buses would pay for most of the increased rail cost. The passenger time savings (running + waiting times) should be considerable.
I was on the PW branch today. We wrong-railed the while way to Woodside. Very fast though. After Flushing, there's only the stop at Woodside. No wonder why so many people in Flushing still take the LIRR over the 7. The M-1/3's are more comfortable, even if you're standing.
The stretch between Shea and Woodside on the Port Washington branch is very fast.
Nice fast ride through the East River tunnels (much better than the Steinway crawl, ooops I meant tubes). The train hit 60 through the Penn tubes, and stayed there for about a minute (Id like to see subway train do that!).
The Penn tubes are beautifully lit and in fairly good condition but there are some major water leaks (mainly at Manhattan side on city bound tube).
[Aren't the Flushing Line trains filled to capacity already ...]
Oh yes ... would need another pair of tubes under the East River FIRST
Mr t__:^)
As someone who lives in Oakland Gardens, I can tell you that Eastern Queens is not that sparsely populated at all.
And about that LIRR--It's EXPENSIVE! I'd just as soon not pay like $120 a month for an interboroough commute.
I'd sure use the 7 if it were in my neighborhood. And I know it's crowded already (what is it with these IRTs?), but if they ran it super-express from Main Street west and hat the locals terminate at Main (as my fellow poster suggested) it might well be workable.
I didn't mean that it wasn't needed, just that the #7 can't handle much more traffic without more capacity, i.e. to Manhattan.
Another option would be to use the middle track during rush hours to get the the IND (E/F/R/G) then use that line which will have two options, i.e. 53rd & 63rd Street tunnels.
The trouble is nothing is on the horizon ... I mean if the sTubway is only going to get another STUDY, what hope is there for Eastern Queens. Well you can always take one of my friendly coaches for $3.00, but then you didn't like the $120 cost (same price for a unlimited monthly bus MC).
Mr t P.S. I'm speaking for myself and not necessarly QSC :-)
I'd just as soon not pay like $120 a month for an interboroough commute.
You are already paying $90 a month to ride the subway. That extra $1. a day is not all that bad, you just gotta pay it all up front.
LIRR trains run on schedule, so even if frequency is low, you still do not have to wait for a train.
Elias
[You are already paying $90 a month to ride the subway. That extra $1. a day is not all that bad, you just gotta pay it all up front. ]
30 day unlimited is $63.
[LIRR trains run on schedule, so even if frequency is low, you still do not have to wait for a train. ]
But if you miss the train...
Arti
30 day unlimited is $63.
Ahh...... so!, I have not used the subway all month since '79.
But if you miss the train...
Plan ahead!
Elias
[But if you miss the train...
Plan ahead! ]
Well if you miss something, it usually means that something went wrong with your plans, happenes.
Arti
But the LIRR dosen't take me directly to my job, nor to most people's jobs (except the few who work within a few blocks of Penn.) There would still be the cost of roughly $60 a month ON TOP OF the $120 a month. That's a BIG difference.
That's why I drive to the subway at 179th and put up with parking in that neighborhood.
Andrew
Could be solved by TSM.
Arti
Ah... yes... I worked at 33rd Street and 7th Avenue.
: )
Elias
>>>(except the few who work within a few blocks of Penn.)<<<
I think that you will find considerably more than a "few" people work within an 8 block radius of PENN.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd think that many of the riders on the extended 7 would be passengers who already take a bus to downtown Flushing anyway; it would be a similar situation with an extended E or F.
The "extra" people are those who, today, have to go to Main Street or wherever to catch a NYC-bound train. Instead of their having to scuttle into the Main Street hole in the ground to board an agonizingly slow sardine can that stops numerous times, the train will come to them.
As it stands, the Transit Authority growls that express trains save commuters only five minutes terminal-to-terminal over the locals. Fine. Have those boarding after Main Street spend an extra one to five minutes on a pure local while those who spend as much time getting to Main Street as riding the 7 itself save the time getting to Main Street, and subsequently in not having to stop at Shea Stadium, Junction Boulevard, and Woodside.
Hell, just going from Utopia Parkway and Horace Harding on the Q-17 costs a 10 minute wait for the bus and an agonizingly slow 20-or-more minute ride to Main Street.
Total time savings, round-trip for outlying commuters, off the top of my head -- An hour a day. A HUGE increase in these commuters' quality of life.
There are already signs on the R62 cars for an 8 line, but the 8 is green. The only logical choice for a number for this line is 11, which already has the purple. Love the idea of a subway line to Queens College, as I am a student here. Although I am kind of used to having stations named for the streets they cross (34th, 42nd, 50th, etc.), having the neighborhoods they serve as an addition (33rd Street-Rawson Street-Long Island City, 40th Street-Lowery Street-Sunnyside) isn't a bad idea either. Your stations could be called:
Main Street-Queensboro Hill
Kissena Boulevard-Queens College*
164th St
(Utopia Parkway)
Francis Lewis Boulevard*
Bell Blvd
Springfield Boulevard-Oakland Gardens*
Marathon Parkway
Little Neck Parkway*
* are express stations, and () are stations I added. But with those NIMBY's, I doubt it will happen.
Bad idea. This part of Queens actually DOESN'T want subway service. They like the suburban lifestyle.
What about this? Why not have a Washington Metrorail-type of service on the Port Washington Line? It would have a higher frequency than the present LIRR service there but not quite as much as a subway line. It could be connected into the upper level of the 63rd St Tunnel and then operate down the Broadway Express tracks in Manhattan. It could relieve overcrowding not just on the 7, but maybe also the E and F trains. And it would free up space at Penn Station. This plan was suggested by the RPA in 1997. It just might work.
What about converting Flushing line to BMT specs and connect it at Queensboro Plaza to Broadway line. Then connect Steinway tunnel to Port Washington line. It would make automated fare collection possible.
Arti
What about converting Flushing line to BMT specs and connect it at Queensboro Plaza to Broadway line. Then connect Steinway tunnel to Port Washington line. It would make automated fare collection possible.
Three questions:
1. What kind of equipment would you run on the PW line?
2. Would you lengthen the Flushing Line platforms to 600'?
3. What about the Astoria Line?
[1. What kind of equipment would you run on the PW line? ]
Depends if the line would be premium fare or not. If not, it would be regular IRT rolling stock. With premium fare special order or modified IRT cars with upgraded amenities. Corona Yard would require LIRR access.
2. Would you lengthen the Flushing Line platforms to 600'?
Yes. With less frequent service the extra capacity is needed.
3. What about the Astoria Line?
59th street tube would serve N to Astoria and R to Flushing. No Queens Boulevard service from Broadway.
Arti
[1. What kind of equipment would you run on the PW line? ]
Depends if the line would be premium fare or not. If not, it would be regular IRT rolling stock. With premium fare special order or modified IRT cars with upgraded amenities. Corona Yard would require LIRR access.
So, you would be using IRT size cars. The existing IRT cars seat 44. Assume that premium seating might raise this to 60. You would need twice as many IRT cars to duplicate the existing PW service.
2. Would you lengthen the Flushing Line platforms to 600'?
Yes. With less frequent service the extra capacity is needed.
A 600' long 10'wide train holds 15% - 20% more passengers than the existing 11 car long Flushing trains. So, you would be able to duplicate the existing service with 24 tph instead of 30 tph.
3. What about the Astoria Line?
59th street tube would serve N to Astoria and R to Flushing. No Queens Boulevard service from Broadway.
With the Flushing Line accounting 24 tph in the 60th St tunnel, just how many trains are you planning to run to Astoria?
Am I correct in assuming that you will not eliminate Queens Blv-Broadway service but simply route it through 63rd St? Or do you propose to force passengers to change at Roosevelt Ave for a Broadway bound Flushing Local?
[So, you would be using IRT size cars. The existing IRT cars seat 44. Assume that premium seating might raise this to 60. You would need twice as many IRT cars to duplicate the existing PW service. ]
More frequent service making tho whole line more of a subway style than commuter rail. Some trains have to terminate at Great Neck as the single track from that on couldn't handle that frequent service.
[A 600' long 10'wide train holds 15% - 20% more passengers than the existing 11 car long Flushing trains. So, you would be able to duplicate the existing service with 24 tph instead of 30 tph. ]
More frequent service on PW subway will take take the load off the slow new R train, so you could reduce TPH.
[With the Flushing Line accounting 24 tph in the 60th St tunnel, just how many trains are you planning to run to Astoria? ]
Current level of service to Astoria rest to Flushing.
[Am I correct in assuming that you will not eliminate Queens Blv-Broadway service but simply route it through 63rd St? Or do you propose to force passengers to change at Roosevelt Ave for a Broadway bound Flushing Local? ]
Yes some local via 63rd street.
Arti
More frequent service making tho whole line [PW] more of a subway style than commuter rail. Some trains have to terminate at Great Neck as the single track from that on couldn't handle that frequent service.
Peak headways are 3 to 5 minutes. Given the differences in car sizes and train lengths, you will problably need 30 tph to provide duplicate seating capacity.
More frequent service on PW subway will take take the load off the slow new R train, so you could reduce TPH.
How does the "R" Queens Blvd Local come into this equation? The MTA did a very thorough job of demolishing the Elmhurst LIRR Station.
Current level of service to Astoria rest to Flushing.
Okay, 12 tph from Astoria brings the 60th St tunnel up to 36 tph. Oops, current TA thinking and parctices preclude such service levels.
[Peak headways are 3 to 5 minutes. Given the differences in car sizes and train lengths, you will problably need 30 tph to provide duplicate seating capacity. ]
PW operates at 2 to 3 TPH currently.
[How does the "R" Queens Blvd Local come into this equation? The MTA did a very thorough job of demolishing the Elmhurst LIRR Station. ]
R will go to Flushing instead of Forest Hills.
[Okay, 12 tph from Astoria brings the 60th St tunnel up to 36 tph. Oops, current TA thinking and parctices preclude such service levels. ]
Flushing service could be 18 tph. Reconfigure some bus routes now feeding Main street to feed to PW line and the capacity problem is solved.
Arti
Flushing service could be 18 tph. Reconfigure some bus routes now feeding Main street to feed to PW line and the capacity problem is solved.
You are assuming that 25% or more of the passengers for the entire Flushing Line arrive by bus from points east of Main St. That is not the case. I can reliably report that there are definitely significant numbers of passengers using the other 13 stations.
The second problem is that the new PW service is already maxed out carrying the same load as the present service. This is due to differences in car size and train length. If you want to further increase PW capacity, then you can't use IRT sized cars.
The third problem is that the most popular Manhattan station is Grand Central. Downtown Lex trains are far more crowded at 59th than they are at Grand Central. You have added about 10 minutes to the most popular destination, if we include increased waiting time for Flushing trains and transfer time.
Now, just which passengers is this plan designed to benefit?
[You are assuming that 25% or more of the passengers for the entire Flushing Line arrive by bus from points east of Main St. That is not the case. I can reliably report that there are definitely significant numbers of passengers using the other 13 stations. ]
I'd assume most who board at Main St. would prefer much faster PW train if it were more affordable and frequent. It would probably make express service obsolete or you could create reverse direction exp to get trains faster to Main St.
[The second problem is that the new PW service is already maxed out carrying the same load as the present service. This is due to differences in car size and train length. If you want to further increase PW capacity, then you can't use IRT sized cars. ]
As I said currently it's 2 max 3 tph. This is far from 30 tph it could possibly be.
[The third problem is that the most popular Manhattan station is Grand Central.]
Why would GC be the most popular destination?
[Downtown Lex trains are far more crowded at 59th than they are at Grand Central.]
Not really at GC they fill up quite nicely.
[You have added about 10 minutes to the most popular destination, if we include increased waiting time for Flushing trains and transfer time. ]
And decreased it for people working Downtown, around 59th street, West Middtown...
[Now, just which passengers is this plan designed to benefit? ]
Pretty much everyone but those few who live on the 7 line past Shea Stadium and work near GC.
Arti
[The second problem is that the new PW service is already maxed out carrying the same load as the present service. This is due to differences in car size and train length. If you want to further increase PW capacity, then you can't use IRT sized cars. ]
As I said currently it's 2 max 3 tph. This is far from 30 tph it could possibly be.
From the MTA Website the LIRR schedule for the PW Branch shows arrivals at: 7:03; 7:14; 7:24; 7:46; 7:55; 7:58; 8:11; 8:26; 8:35; 8:38; 8:44; 8:59; 9:02; 9:14; 9:20. Most of these trains are SRO. The peak between 8:20 and 9:00 shows 5 trains or a 15 tph.
Again due to differences between the car sizes and train lengths, this corresponds to 30 tph through the Steinway tunnels for the existing PW traffic only.
[The third problem is that the most popular Manhattan station is Grand Central.]
Why would GC be the most popular destination?
Do you doubt it?
[Downtown Lex trains are far more crowded at 59th than they are at Grand Central.]
Not really at GC they fill up quite nicely.
From the East Side Planning Study (also on the MTA website) Table 9D-9
The leave loads for Lex Expresses are: 1.09 and 1.02 at 59th and Grand Central, respectively. The figures for the locals are: 0.90 and 0.56.
These figures would indicate that despite the great influx of Metro North commuters, Grand Central is a very popular destination.
[You have added about 10 minutes to the most popular destination, if we include increased waiting time for Flushing trains and transfer time. ]
And decreased it for people working Downtown, around 59th street, West Middtown...
The present scenerio for Flushing to downtown riders is to is to transfer at GC. The running times for from QueensBoro Plaza to GC are the same via the Steinway Tunnels and via the 60th St Tunnel and a transfer to the Lex.
I agree that Flushing passengers bound for the 4 stations on the Broadway Line between Queensboro Plaza and Times Squaer will arrive 2 minutes earlier. This is due to the wait time for the cross platform transfer at Queensboro Plaza.
[Now, just which passengers is this plan designed to benefit? ]
Pretty much everyone but those few who live on the 7 line past Shea Stadium and work near GC.
You are working under the assumptions that the existing PW trains are not running at max load levels and that there are far fewer trains running during rush hour than is currently the case. Neither assumption is true. The MTA has reduced the number of rush hour LIRR trains stopping at Main St, Elmhurst and Woodside to reduce load levels. Ridership can be increased on the PW line but not with IRT car dimensions.
[Again due to differences between the car sizes and train lengths, this corresponds to 30 tph through the Steinway tunnels for the existing PW traffic only. ]
But that would be the only traffic.
[From the East Side Planning Study (also on the MTA website) Table 9D-9
The leave loads for Lex Expresses are: 1.09 and 1.02 at 59th and Grand Central, respectively. The figures for the locals are: 0.90 and 0.56.
These figures would indicate that despite the great influx of Metro North commuters, Grand Central is a very popular destination. ]
Now what would the figures be for uptown trains. 59th, 51st, 42nd are popular destinations becaus lot of workplaces are located there. Currently some 7 customers either have to use QB or Lex to get to 59th St for example.
[The present scenerio for Flushing to downtown riders is to is to transfer at GC. The running times for from QueensBoro Plaza to GC are the same via the Steinway Tunnels and via the 60th St Tunnel and a transfer to the Lex. ]
Running times perhaps, but you woud have to transfer and that alone would add several minutes. Also we all know that both Lex and QB are way overcrowded unlike Broadway.
[You are working under the assumptions that the existing PW trains are not running at max load levels and that there are far fewer trains running during rush hour than is currently the case. Neither assumption is true. The MTA has reduced the number of rush hour LIRR trains stopping at Main St, Elmhurst and Woodside to reduce load levels. Ridership can be increased on the PW line but not with IRT car dimensions. ]
Connecting PW to Broadway via 63rd would not allow you to have 30tph. Perhaps 15 tph max. Also this would not allow to separate the service from general subway easily. My idea would create a totally separated ROW and NIMBYs in NE Queens probably won't object that much.
Arti
[From the MTA Website the LIRR schedule for the PW Branch shows arrivals at: 7:03; 7:14; 7:24; 7:46; 7:55; 7:58; 8:11; 8:26; 8:35; 8:38; 8:44; 8:59; 9:02; 9:14; 9:20. Most of these trains are SRO. The peak between 8:20 and 9:00 shows 5 trains or a 15 tph. ]
Wait a second it's 5 tph!!
Arti
The max is 3 trains in a 15 minute interval. That extrapolates to 12 trains in a 60 minute interval.
60 = 15 x 4
12 = 3 x 4
If you look at the schedule you'll notice that those trains serve alternate stations. That spacing probably has to do with Penn Station's limited capacity and not the actual demands of the riders. So I'll stand by 5 tph.
Arti
If you look at the schedule you'll notice that those trains serve alternate stations. That spacing probably has to do with Penn station's limited capacity and not the actual demands of the riders. So I'll stand by 5 tph.
All the trains are running SRO. The MTA schedulers essentially decided to split the PW Branch into 3 separate sub-branches: Great Neck - PW; Bayside-Great Neck and Woodside-Auburndale. Had they not done this then the Woodside-Auburndale customers would not get any seats.
And LIRR commuters give up their M-1's for smaller, narrower slower IRT size cars?
[And LIRR commuters give up their M-1's for smaller, narrower slower IRT size cars? ]
And get more frequent service with more transfer options. And the cars don't have to be slower.
Arti
Well they might if the cars were new and state of the art. It would be cool if they had Japanese-style metro trains running on this new PW subway line, built with IRT specs.
I think that my plan would suit Eastern Queens NIMBYs better than connecting to Broadway.
Arti
Major problems adjusting the Steinway tunnels for anything bigger than IRT-width cars -- remember the R-62s couldn't even fit through corrently when they first arrived.
Also, with the turns between Queensboro Plaza and Hunter's Point Ave., I doubt even the BMT/IND 60-footers could negotiate the curves, while the first 75-footer that tried it would certainly end up on the Queensboro Bridge approach ramp (which should not be done until the MTA decides to stage its "Farewell to the R-44s" train tour).
[Major problems adjusting the Steinway tunnels for anything bigger than IRT-width cars -- remember the R-62s couldn't even fit through corrently when they first arrived. ]
I would run IRT spec cars. They are less capacity but I'd run them more frequently.
[Also, with the turns between Queensboro Plaza and Hunter's Point Ave., I doubt even the BMT/IND 60-footers could negotiate the curves, ]
I'd connect to LIRR around Hunters Point Av. The elevated between Hunters Point and Queensboro Plaze would be demolished.
Arti
What happens to the current 7/N transfer at Queensboro Plaza? That would force even more passengers onto the Grand Central platform, or onto the E/F/R trains to transfer at 74th Street.
[What happens to the current 7/N transfer at Queensboro Plaza? That would force even more passengers onto the Grand Central platform, or onto the E/F/R trains to transfer at 74th Street. ]
Flushing train would become Broadway local, so there's no need to transfer.
Arti
It would make automated fare collection possible since it would be a stand-alone line, but the smaller IRT cars would make Metrorail-style seating harder because of their length and width. But if we connect the PW to the 63rd St Tunnel and Broadway, riders from PW, Great Neck and NE Queens would have one-seat rides to many midtown and lower Manhattan destinations. Plus, people from the other LIRR lines could always transfer to the PW line to get to these same destinations, rather than have to do it at Penn Station.
[But if we connect the PW to the 63rd St Tunnel and Broadway, riders from PW, Great Neck and NE Queens would have one-seat rides to many midtown and lower Manhattan destinations.]
One problem woud be the remaining capacity of 63rd st tunnel. They don't have it right now, but they'll gain easyer access to misc. other routes.
At the same time a people on current Flushing line woud get that benefit.
Arti
God no! The Steinway tubes are too narrow for M-1 trains. And they are old and slow. The Steinway tubes should be WIDENED first.
IRT spec cars.
Arti
For the 100th time, you can not mix passenger equipment between
the LIRR and the NYC subway? Why not? ADA. The platform heights
are different. Running IRT width equipment on the LIRR would
only increase the problem. Maybe you could run modified B division
spec equipment with some sort of (as yet not invented or at least
never implemented) amazing trucks that could compensate for the
8" height difference.
Platforms and or tracks can be raised or lowered, and extensions added, but the truth is (Polititians with their heads in the sand notwitstanding) the number of users is going to continue to rise.
More tunnels and or rail birdges to Manhattan are urgently required. A massive influx of investment and construction is needed. Close the queensboro bridge to vehicles, and run rails across it, connect to the Second Avenue Subway. Build a 34th Street Rail-mall project to connect the QMT to the Lincoln, and get LI-NJ traffic off of city streets.
You either look at the BIG PICTURE or you fight over the little details forever and never build another inch of track.
Then you do it, and lock out the NIMBYs, tell them to move to Wyoming if they don't like it (we certainly don't want them here in North Dakota)
Oh well.... even the little plans are interesting, even if they are impracticle. If you do not have dreamers, then the accountants will take over, and stiffle the whole world.
Elias
Then you do it, and lock out the NIMBYs, tell them to move to Wyoming if they don't like it (we certainly don't want them here in North Dakota).
But doesn't that make you a NIMBY yourself?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
More tunnels and or rail birdges to Manhattan are urgently required. A massive influx of investment and construction is needed. Close the queensboro bridge to vehicles, and run rails across it, connect to the Second Avenue Subway...
You either look at the BIG PICTURE or you fight over the little details forever and never build another inch of track.
The queensboro bridge can't hold the weight. details, details, details...
[Close the queensboro bridge to vehicles, ]
What would feed it from the Queens side?
Arti
My main point: just because there are two rail lines somewhat
close to each other that are both the same gauge doesn't mean
that it is practical to connect them for passenger service.
Too often, people post "plans" for improving transit that are
so completely divorced from the constraints of reality as to
be ludicrous.
Do we really need more tracks into Manhattan? That point
could be debated for some time. Right now the big crunch
in terms of meeting rush hour service needs is available
cars. Beyond that there is a bit of expansion room built
in to the existing river trackage. The current tph levels
are no where near what could be achieved with modernization,
i.e. signal and rolling stock improvements.
Never mind the fact that TA trains use 600 DC volts while LIRR trains use 750 volts. That alone is good enough reason.
What? Install two third rails AND re-do the platforms? Get real.
Been done before. Rockaway Beach line.
Arti
Yeah, wayyyyy before. Won't happen again though.
R44s, and R46s tested on the LIRR...
I understand that 3rd rail voltages used to varry that much anyway, see the page on this site about power distribution.
I was not in favor of the proposal, but only pointing out that small details can be worked out, and are not obstacles.
And to another post, yes, I think that more tracks are needed into Manhattan.
Elias
I think that more tracks are needed into Manhattan.
The existing tracks are mismanaged by either their theoretical capacity or by past performance. Case in point is the Queens Blvd Line.
They currently operate 8 car 75 footers with a train load of 8 x 175 = 1400 passengers. They used to operate 11 car 60 footers with a train load of 11 x 145 = 1595 in the late 1950's. This translates to 14% more capacity per train.
They used to run 34 tph in the late 1950's as opposed to today's figure of 27. This represents a 26% increase.
Combining the two you see that operations in the late 1950's permitted 43% more passengers than today. This translates to nearly 12 more trains per hour on the express tracks. The 63rd St connector will provide only 15 more tph at a cost of over $500 million.
If existing lines were operated to past demonstrated standards, there would be a vast immprovement in rider comfort.
Yes, But...
I'd expect even more growth and traffic to Manhattan....
They were talking of a whole new line: it would need it's own connection to Manhattan, and could not piggy-back on an existing routing.
Elias
The present signal system, without any modification is capable of sustained 40 tph operation. That is roughly 50% more than is currenly run. The worst load factors are around 1.3. No, it's not the Lex. That means no existing lines need be overcrowded.
The question is if the lines are extended to cover areas currently covered by feeder buses will overall subway traffic be increased or displaced. If it is increased are there additional strategies that can be employed? The answer is that 50-55 tph is possible with proven technologies, far more modest expenditures and implemented over a shorter period of time.
>>> They used to run 34 tph in the late 1950's as opposed to today's figure of 27. This represents a 26% increase <<<
Some caution must be exercised in comparing service in the 50s to today. At that time there were no strollers or wheelchairs being transported which allowed shorter station dwell times, and also a much less restrictive policy about holding trains with a sick passenger.
Although it may be possible to run trains with shorter headways (more tph) the shorter the headway, the bigger the disruption when any train must stay longer than usual in any station.
Tom
>>Bad idea. This part of Queens actually DOESN'T want subway service. They like the suburban lifestyle. <<
You see, that I disagree with. I live in Eastern Queens, and believe me, plenty of people use the subway. A lot of people drive to the eastern limits of the 7 and the F, not for nothing is parking so difficult in Jamaica Estates. I know for certain that I woukld use a subway here.
:)Andrew
I'd like to see the 7 extended along Roosevelt Ave. and then Northern Blvd. to at least Bell Blvd., while another extension would come off the Queens Blvd line (local tracks) before Kew Gardens going down Union Turnpike to about the same location, Bell Blvd., which would give St. John's University direct access to the subway. Once the 63rd St. tunnel is completed, the V train could continue past 71st-Continental along Union Turnpike, while the R continued to use it as a terminal.
J Lee:
I agree with you that they should extend the #7 line to the Queens Nassau border and I would add a branch to College Point in Queens.
BMTJeff
Building an extension of the #7 line along the route you are proposing would cause more headaches and traffic conjection than the end result of a new service. Bringing up the Train-to-the Plane issue does not serve a purpose here since everyone knows that NYC was way behind in having rail service to its airports. The route to JFK airport was probably the best way to get there as opposed to reviving old LIRR ROWS that are would require more work and some of the land was already sold off to homeowners along the route anyway. The thougt of changing the Port Washington line to a subway line makes no sense at all, since there is too much over crowding as it is on this line. The line is use by suburban commuters and having the Red Birds put on this line would be a nightmare. How much would they charge as a fare to ride to Pt. Washington knowing that you are going to sit on a hard bench for a seat?...can you image that?
As far the neighborhoods that the author mentions, these areas are served well by public and private bus service. A majority of these lines connect with either the LIRR and/or the subway lines.
streetcar man:
I think that having subway service in addition to the bus service would be a boon to eastern Queens which is bereft of subway service. They should laso extend the IND Queens Blvd./Hillside Ave. line to the Nassau border also.
BMTJeff
Why stop at the Nassau / Queens line? Take it all the way to Hempstead, Rejoin with the West Hempstead Branch and loop back to Queens. Have the "F" train run Clockwise and the "E" train run Counterclockwise. Rejoining at Van Wyck. Wher possible elevate or burrow from the surface to eliminate any and all rail crossings.
The "F" would capture the Hempstead Branch, the "E" would run parallel or capture the Locust Manor branch and West Hempstead Branch .
Together they would form a Loop, The F&E Loop. Some thing similar could be invisioned for the "A" and "C" trains utilizing the Far Rockaway Branch and the five towns Branch.
One could go "TO Da Loops"
avid
Wouldn't capacity be the problem? E & F are allready overcrowded with no real way to increase the service.
Arti
Why are you fantasizing that this would ever take place?...using the current subway rolling stock, no one would pay the current suburban fare to ride on a hard seat all the way to the suburbs. Also, can you image the distruption this project would cause along this "proposed" line?" All traffic conjestion along these neighborhoods?..the headaches out weigh the end results here.
No they don't. The fare and service could be limited express service with newer pliable vandal resistant covering. The air trains elevation is doing quite well and disruption is not all that bad. Neither was the disruption when Massapequa and Mass. Park and Seaford were Elevated.
As for the headaches...take asprin.
avid
Did you ever consider the "room" factor, AVID?...Lets be real. In order for this to actually work, you would need more tracks then the ones now to support and increase in service. Right now, that "room factor" is rather limited. If you are asking to use existing tracks, it won't support the increase in traffic. And to integrate the trains/subways together is madness because each system right now has it own "quirks." To put it all under one "roof" would be maddness. Remember when the LIRR had majoring problems with the heavy snow?..if they were in one system, then everyone would suffer the delays.
As for the elevation factor, it is quite easy to build in an open area than in a "tight area." Building over the Van Wyke Expwy. and the Sunrise Hwy. are two open areas where there is the least amount of disruption. All the other street are very tight areas where there would be a great amount disruption in traffic. Hillside Ave can not support either an underground or elevated system. When they built IND, they built it during a time when traffic was way different and neighborhood were not really established yet like they are today.
I am not really sure what you are trying to solve with all these ideas, but better and efficient rail service is needed on the LIRR. There is too many standees and the MUs have to changed soon in order to have less breakdowns.
I am not seeing why you believe subway service would be an economic boom to those neighborhoods when these are not "blighted areas." These are all middle to upper middle class areas. Putting subway service is not going to change their lifestyle or get them anywhere quicker.
The Daily News report on the Thnaksgiving train wreck in 1950 and Caro, in the Power Broker, paint a bleak picture of the LIRR in that era, with antiquated rolling stock caked with dirt, hot in the summer, freezing in winter.
Can any subtalkers who were around then and rode the LIRR bear out those reports?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Since I was born in '53 I only experienced the 50's as a toddler and pre-teen but I remember I loved riding the LIRR in those days. My grandparents used to take us between Flatbush Av & Hempstead (until they discovered the Bee Line betw Hempstead & Jamaica!!) all the time. The Flatbush Av Station had a building terminal with a street level waiting room. If I remember you waited upstairs until the board said your train was loading, just like Penn Station nowadays. There was a traffic light type of board that turned from red to green when it was time to board your train.
Although the pre-M1 electrics were all full length cabs the engineers always let kids up front with them to look out the front window. The engineers always stood up front. Just before Hempstead when it went from a single track from Country Life Press to the multiple tracks at Hempstead the engineer had to stop, get off the train, and manually throw the switch.
/* The engineers always stood up front. */
The '54s had seats in the cabs, but they weren't very comfortable at all. More like a little metal plate to sit on than a seat. The ACMUs have seats in them, but the crews always stand too. I'm guessing the lack of seat use is directly related to the lack of comfort. (When I was in Maine last, I was able to look inside #4137, and I sat in the seat in the cab on it. It's not that great a seat)
The NJT and SEPTA Arrows all have that little fold out plate seat. Most Motor-persons perfer to stand.
>>>>The Flatbush Av Station had a
building terminal with a street level waiting room. If I remember you waited upstairs until the board said your train was loading, just like Penn Station
nowadays.<<<
Yeah, they really treasured that building, didn't they? Let it deteriorate until one day, it had to be razed to stop it from collapsing. We've had a hole in the ground at Atlantic & Flatbush for 25 years and counting.
NY NY, it's a hellofa town...
or used to be.
www.forgotten-ny.com
the pre-M1 electrics were all full length cabs the engineers always let kids up front with them
They really were not full width cabs. They were vesibules that had a control stand in them. They were always used as vestibules even when being used as a cab.
Elias
And those venerable porthole windows too. Seems that all the MP-54 had these, even those running on other railroads. Some cars even had round windows in their storm doors and side doors too (i.e. #4137 ex.1137, among others) like the 2800-series diesel coaches (UGH) had.
wayne
All the P54/MP54 types on the LIRR and PRR had porthole windows in the ends. Even though LIRR sealed over the end windows in most of the loco-hauled/m.u.trailer cars, they did have them when they were built. On some of them, they were really cheap and just painted the glass grey -- saw quite a few broken ones in the 1960's.
The round windows in the side doors and storm doors were added to those cars when they went through a GOH in the 1950's, so they would match the MP72 cars delivered in 1955-1956.
Pacific Electric also had larger porthole windows in the ends of their "Blimp" cars -- but its my understanding those were not built for PE but rather another operation in northern California.
All the P54/MP54 types on the LIRR and PRR had porthole windows in the ends.
Cars with square end windows ran on the PRSL Camden to Atlantic City electrified route. Some were marked "Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines" and some were marked "Pennsylvania". Were these not MP-54's?
The square windowed units were 1906 wooden interurban cars that were origionally bought for the line. Some of these units recieved steel ends with the owl eye windows, but they retained a large wooden storm door. Around 1915 the WJ&S pruchased 12-24 additional MP-54(DC) units and aside from the storm door they have a much larger headlamp assembly. After the 1948 PUC wooden the MP-45 were the only cars allowed to carry on service untill 1949 when they were replaced by 5(10?) Baldwin DRS-1500's (6000-6004) what were paid for in part by the state because of the PUC ban of the wooden cars. The DRS-1500's were meant for Woodbury-Millville service, but were quickly used elsewhere and PRR G-5's filled in on the route.
I have a photo in my Train Wrecks book that shows car #3704 being fished out of the drink near Atlantic City NJ - it is dated Oct. 28, 1906. It's a long car with a railroad roof an a single headlight, there is a little housing on the roof at the car center. They had a drawbridge accident there and 57 people drowned. I guess this is one of the wooden interurban cars described. The photo didn't show much damage to the car; I guess it landed upright and in shallow water. Too bad there was such a loss of life.
wayne
3 cars went in the drink and only one was completely sumberged. That's where most of the 57 died. The problem was that the locking mechanisms were faulty. The bridge tender was charged with manshaughter, but in the investigation they found the railroad was to blame and it cost them a pretty penny to settle the case. The WJ&S had rushed things a bit to complete the line from Newfield to AC.
Porthole windows must've been in vogue in the late 40's - early 50's. The R11 and R15 had them on the side and front storm doors. Luckily, sanity prevailed and they only showed up on the storm doors of the R16 and R17.
The 4 porthole door windows on the R11 and R15 looked horrible, IMHO.
I read this article and I was shocked to find out that such a horrible rail accident took place right in my back yard. The death toll was second only to Malbone St. I was equally shocked to read that the LIRR had no trip-cock brake system employed on it's line, and that the train in question tried to stop at a red light, but it's brakes malfunctioned. Something like this might've been expected at the turn of the century, but not in the modern era of the 1950's.
BTW, The Pennslvania RR used the exact same excuse the BRT used after the Malbone St. wreck to explain why it happened: the inability to get the transit board to approve offare hikes to pay for maintenance and new equipment. Thanks, Mayor Hylan. Not only has your legacy helped destroy many mass transit lines within the city, but it might have indirectly killed people.
I was equally shocked to read that the LIRR had no trip-cock brake system employed on it's line, and that the train in question tried to stop at a red light, but it's brakes malfunctioned.
If the brakes malfunctioned a trip arm would not have helped. Furthermore trip arms are a hinderance on real railroads because passing red signals is a standard proceedure and even at home signals the blocks are too long to to have the required multiple reds behind a train in trip arm country. The LIAR had and has something much better in the form of cab signal based ATC.
I understand different kinds of rail lines work better with different signal systems. But what shocked me was that the LIRR had NOTHING, not a single system to stop a train automatically if another train is blocking the path ahead. How can you run a commuter rail line at 60-70 MPH with absolutley no safety precautions?
You can run a commuter line at 79 mph without any automatic stop systems. However keep in mind that Engineers have much more training than T/O's and if one ever gos past a Stop (and Stay) signal they'll be fired without question. Furthermore railroads are speed signaled so an LIAR engineer wouldn't blow through a Stop signal at linespeed without mutiple intentional disregarsions of the operating rules. Even now an engineer can pass any Stop signal at a speed below 15 mph because the most restrictive aspect the cab signal system has is Restricting.
disregarsions
Nice word!
SubTalkers are currently luxuriating in a plethora of extraneous locution.
>>>without mutiple intentional DISREGARSIONS of the
operating rules. >>>
Dubya, shouldn't you be campaigning in California?....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Better hope the Bush 2000 campaign bus has a designated driver ...
What, there was no other word that could adequately convey my point.
Disregardings is a real word, and it doesn't take a lot of strategery to use it.
There *are* safety precautions though not on all lines, in the form of ATC. If the engineer disregardsa signal, his train *will* be stopped.
He must acknolwedge every aspect change with a response, or the train will shutdown.
Elias
Only a restrictive aspect change. Approach to Clear will not require an acknowledgement. What does the "whistle" sound like in an LIAR or Metro North cab. SEPTA's acknowledger makes a high dee-doo-dee-doo-dee-doo sound.
Very simple, that's how it is done on MOST railroads. There are trackside signals. Tha't it. No tripcocks, no ASC, no ATC. Engineer somehow misses a signal and rear ends a train ahead.
It just happened in Arizona on the BNSF.
The Richmond Hill accident occurred in the evening darkness, at about 6:30PM. After reading these numerous posts, explanations and technical information, I can easily see how Mr. Pokorny could have collided with the Hempstead train - there was absolutely nothing there to prevent him from doing so except for himself!
wayne
One thing that should be added too, is that the rear-end markers in those days were NOT the larger, brighter ones we are used to nowadays. In that era, they had a rear-end marker light that was small -- about 1-1/2" in diameter, and put out about as much light as a two-cell flashlight.
It was the Richmond Hill wreck that got the New York State Legislature to pass a law requiring all passenger trains within the state to have two rear end marker lamps capable of being visible from 3,000 feet away under normal conditons.
Which is absolutley shocking considering the relatively slower subway system had systems to do exactly that automatically in 1904!
Speed has nothing to do with it. Transit drivers operate their train like they would a bus or a car with quick accelerations. The signals had no attached speed restrictions and the Drivers could/can not be trusted to drive their trains under control. Therefore stop signals and permenant speed restrictions must be enforced with trip arms. Engineers recieve a much higher degree of training and must be federally certified. With their level of professionalism they do not need trip arms, signal indications and speed limit signs are sufficient.
There is no need for multiple reds. A single red with a space before the start of its block will provide the train with space to stop.
You need to have an extra track circut so that the trip arm will not trip the other cars after the lead car has passed. Redundant track circuts and overlaps are a waste of money and should be avoided. A strict speed signaling system serves the same purpose.
But with ASC, the train is allowed to go 30 in the block before the
red. As soon as it passes into the block with the red signal, it will
have to stop, but by then it would be too late to avoid hitting a
train which is 5 feet in front of the block boundary.
Anyway, ASC should be used for anything faster than 30mph.
With NORAC cab signals the 30 speed is given as an Approach indication and the Engineer must be prepared to stop at the end of the block not to mention that the rear of trains have a red light. Only at interlockings is there a cab signal change point some 1500 feet before the home signal. If the home signal is at STOP the train will recieve a restricting aspect in time to not run into the interlocking. Metro-North, the Conrail Boston Line, Amtrak NEC from PORTAL to A and the Conrail Morrisville line all use cab signals w/o wayside signals or ABS block overlaps and as far as I know there has never been a bad accident. Engineers take "prepared to stop" very seriously because if they don't they will almost certainly get into an accident. Furthermore engineers must have very good route knowledge and freight train engineers are expected to run at linespeed even in 0 visibility fog.
BTW the FRA permits 60mph on unsignaled lines. To require ATC for anything over 30 would be insane. What is also insane is the UK allowinf trains to run at 140mph without any type of cab signal.
The LIRR declared bankruptcy in 1949!
The PRR refused to be responsible for the LIRR indebtedness!
In 1950 the LIRR, BMT and IRT were all using older equipment. The IND did have the R-10's which were fairly new!
In 1950, the newest electric equipment was the 1930 model MP-54A1, one of which was the lead motor of the ill-fated Babylon train No.174. Most of the other stuff was as old as 1910 and as recent as 1926.
Please correct me if I am wrong on this one.
wayne
No, the newest equipment on the LIRR at the time of the Richmond Hill wreck were the so-called double-deckers.
Car 200 (class T62) was built 1932.
Car 201 (class T70) was built 1934.
Car 1347 (class MP70T) was built 1947.
Cars 1337-1346 (MP70A) were built 1947.
Cars 1287-1336 (MP70B) were built 1948.
The first three were built as trailer cars, 1347 was a motorized trailer.
On the MP70A/B cars, they were all built as contol motors. In the 1950's rebuilding of the LIRR fleet, about 1/3 of them were converted to motorized trailers -- so they became MP70Ac, MP70Bc [control motors] and MP70AT, MP70BT [motorized trailers].
Oh NO! I forgot about the "Dicketydackers" (that's what I called them as a little kid)! - I was referring to the MP54 class.
Didn't they stick a single Double Decker in the middle of a consist of other cars (this in the 1960s)?
Thank you for reminding me... the Double Deckers were beasts - one of the most uncomfortable cars I ever rode in. Squeeezed into a tiny seat, quite claustrophobic on the lower level.
wayne
Ahh it's Fall and for the 2nd year in a row there is a slow order on A2 and A4 tracks (Manhattan Bound) of the Brighton Line (D/Q). On A4 (Express) the order starts in the middle of Ave H. On A2 (Local) it starts as you leave Ave H, assuming this is because the local is stopping there >G<.
Last year someone posted that this slow order was because of the downgrade into Newkirk Ave and the excess leaves on the track that effects braking.
This year I am happy to report that SO FAR trains are reducing speed but not to the 5 MPH crawl we had last year. I would say they are doing 10 to 15 MPH (towards the high end) by feel. Still this does hamper that EXPRESS fell of the Q from the Highway to Newkirk. I guess the Gel Train couldn't keep up with the amount of leaves. I do not believe there have been any over shoots this year and that the order was put in place as prevention.
Our slant R-40 Q had a nice express run down the Brighton last Thursday.
I haven't seen any temporary signs that limit speed there. It depends on the T/O. The 7:50 AM T/O slows down at Avenue H. The 7:44 AM doesn't. Just for clarifiactions, there were no timers built into that area last year as people posted. Don't assume anything. Some of these T/Os are crappy too. Back in the summer, they coasted 600' feet before even reaching the station. Let's hope the new picks bring us some daring train operators.
running on...
In the days of the new Brightliners, before Chrystie, the Q and M trains did everything but fly down that section. They all seemed to be able to stop strongly and smoothly at Newkirk, too, winter, summer, spring, and fall.
Don't give me this daring and some are crappy train operators nonsense just so you can get your jollies! They have to operate their trains safely. They must have their trains under control at all times. They have families to support. To you it's railfanning, to them it's making a living. For guys like me, it's both! There are extra supervisors out there watching and the guy who runs out of a station does not have his train under control. It very well could be the last time he ever operates a train.
Bill,
With all due respect, I think you're missing the point here. I've been riding the B line for 15 years. By now, I know where the trains are supposed to slow down. There are too many drivers slamming on the brakes for no reason at all. There are slight curves with no speed restrictions, that some drivers slam on the brakes for. There are other curves with 30 MPH limits, and they do 15 or 10, while others do 40. If you want specific exmples, just let me know.
Also, It is less in the interest of railfanning, and more in the interest in getting where you want to go. Like work. It is an extreme dis-service to customers, who are paying for reliable service.
JDL
Please provide the specific examples JDL. I'm very interested and maybe I can answer your question as to why T/O's use the brake when you think they shouldn't.
Oh they are there, brown board with painted yellow balls on them. Look at A2 signal leaving Ave H. On A4 it is towards the middle of Ave H.
Hello everybody, Im an English university student studying Transport Planning at Oxford University. I came accross this site while seeking information on how how the NYC Subway is funded. This is inlight of Bob Kiley being apointed to sort out the problems that London Underground is experiancing. Most of you will know who he is, but in case you dont, he was the guy who got NYC subway back on track, sorry about the punn.
I am therefore interested in the details of how the subway is funded and by who, and also if the funding methods have changed post and prior to Bob Kileys appointment and departure.
Accounts etc are all of interest.
Im not fully up to speed on how this site works, but I hope this message gets posted and through one method or another I manage to retrieve anything you can tell me personally, or where you recomend that I find relevant information.
Thanks very much,
Tim Foxall.
Have you taken a look at the Annual Reports posted on the MTA's official web site? (www.mta.nyc.ny.us)
-Dave
You might also look at the U.S. Department of Transportation, Federal Transit Administration website.
Basically, all transit in the United States has become a "social service," maintained for those without cars. Since most people drive and Americans are spread out in suburbs, there is not enough demand (especially off peak) for financially independent service, as in Brittain. The subways cover about 80 to 100 percent of their operating costs, but none of their capital costs. The buses -- and most other transit systems -- cover far less. The rest is made up for by dedicated taxes and other public funding.
Looked at another way, however, while drivers pay for to purchase, maintain, and operate their own automobiles, taxes pay for the streets they drive on. If you think of the cost of the right of way (ie. Railtrack in Brittain) as a public responsibility like streets and sidewalks, then I believe the New York City subways and some other rail systems would break even on an "auto-equivalent" basis.
Tim, A note about the replys posted already. You've already heard from our site host and resident debator, so your off to a realy good start. I notice that your e-mail address is available, so some may want to talk to you one-on-one. Did you see the post about the History Channel (over here in the States) special on the London Underground. We now know alot more about your system.
BTW, Cubic Corp. has a big project over there with turnstiles, ticket machines, etc. They are also the company doing it here (NYC, Washington D.C., Chicago, Houston, and many others).
Anyhow, welcome !
P.S. We have another Tim from over there, but he's in Sweden. He's also a trolley operator there.
Mr t__:^)
Here's a link to the article on NY1.COM
A twelve year old boy tried to sell me a $100 Metrocard for $5 at 96th St/Carnegie Hill (6, BTW, I've taken to giving neighborhood names to stations in order to make them more distinguishable).
Well, now that the TA has discovered the glitch AFTER some criminal types did, The useful Trade In Cards feature has been removed.
I intend to send the TA a letter of grievances (read: angry hate mail... just kidding).
I would speculate that the high school students made use of a feature that was designed into the MVM - probably at the TA's request.
The machine has to have a means to eject cards that may become stuck. Manual controls would most likely be placed on the inside of the machine. However, the TA appears to want to limit access to the MVM's inside to guard against the possibility of Luddite sabotage.
An alternative to opening the machine would be to have the capability of providing some limited manual control from the outside. Provision was made for being able to enter this maintenance mode by using the existing customer hardware, rather than requiring some additional hardware like a keypad. I'm sure some bean counters figured out how many million dollars the TA would save by not requiring such hardware.
My guess is that the students watched the MVM repair and refill crews at work and observed the 'secret' of entering the maintenance mode.
The other surprising note is that it will take several days to individually reprogram all 1800 machines. Are they implying that on a networked system they have no way of downloading a new program?
The other surprising note is that it will take several days to individually reprogram all 1800 machines. Are they implying that on a networked system they have no way of downloading a new program?
Will they bring back trade-ins?
Are they implying that on a networked system they have no way of downloading a new program?
It's quite possible that this is in the bios code, which on an Intel processor requires a reboot of the machine from an external drive (floppy or CD) to install. Our support folks at the office just upgraded the bios on my Toshiba laptop and had to boot the machine from the floppy to do it. (And, as has been typical of every "upgrade" they've performed on the machine, it's screwed it up even more.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's quite possible that this is in the bios code, which on an Intel processor requires a reboot of the machine from an external drive (floppy or CD) to install.
It is possible that this was a bios related problem but not likely. Moreover, it is not difficult to design a system that would permit remote bios upgrades.
11/04/2000
It seems that they are modifying the MVM's on the BMT Broadway (Manhattan)line. Since I'm looking for the Kevin Mawae (NY Jets) card to complete my collection, I tried to trade in a "plain jane" card a see if the NY Jets card was being dispensed from the MVM. NO GO !
When you select "trade in card" the next screen asks "which card do you want" ? Regular Metrocard or Unlimited ride Metrocard. MVM's in Penn Station (1,2,3,9) haven't been changed yet.
Bill "Newkirk"
What most likely is being done is the machines are recieving the new program (I doubt it's a hardware thing), and need to be rebooted for that code to take effect. Givin what happened to the machines recently, they're probably taking it very carefully.
-Hank
OK, maybe there's a code to reject a card, etc. BUT i'm sure there no code to get the machine to spit out a new card with money on it.
Also, unless someone knows differently, I don't think there's a computer inside that box. I suspect it's a dumb terminal (am I dating myself ?).
Mr t__:^)
No, there is a fully functional computer running Windows NT 4.0 inside the MVM.
Next time I have a reason to talk to the mfg. I'll have to ask why they made the MVMs stand alone with PCs inside.
Mr t__:^)
They don't make dumb terminals anymore.
Even with remote control, the preferred way of doing things is to have a self working system. If the server collapses, the other computers will still work.
That's one of the main principles behind the Internet, a large number of systems have to go down before it becomes a true problem.
I have 3270 Emulation at this depot, but the computer CAN stand alone if/when the mainframe looses contact/shuts down for maint.
I can also relate to some extent at what happened to the MVMs, but it's probally not a good idea for me to provide too much detail.
I'm just surprised that the MVMs aren't dumber, i.e. a "depot" or "station" computer has a broader mission & folks assigned to keep track of if it's working ... a MVM must be supervised by remote control. So what happens when it goes down or they notice something funny going on ... a swat team speeds to the location ? Interesting since the Station Agent isn't permitted to touch it, well maybe they can clean the glass or sweep around it.
The LIRR is going the same way, i.e. cutting back agent hours leaving the traveling public with a machine that can't answer questions.
(Opps .... in the subways the agents will still be around somewhere & be sent to Charm School so they are excelent at providing SERVICE).
Mr t__:^)
The LIRR is going the same way, i.e. cutting back agent hours leaving the traveling public with a machine that can't answer questions.
Nothing prevents the installation of automatic route finder machines. Nothing stops them from installing the software into MVMs.
Why do you think that computers have to be dumber? What makes you think a computer that can stand alone has to be supervised in person?
[Nothing stops them from ... installation of automatic route finder machines.]
I can think of two: Money & desire to provide SERVICE
[Nothing stops them from ... having lots of stand alone computers]
How about, the more individual processors, the more things that can go wrong, be messed with (at lightly used stations, where there is hardly ever anyone around ... yes they can install cameras).
How about ... oh oh there's a computer inside, lets break in and steal it ?
It just occurs to me that they are asking for trouble having all those machines out there with lots of moving parts that can break or be tampered with ... RAM, hard drive, floppy, modem, etc., etc.
My experience with the processor in the farebox is that it likes to "hiccup" for no good reason, then works fine again (I also need to work with the TA on these because we wouldn't want to benifit financially from the hiccup now would we). Quess what happens if the MVM take a power hit or brown out to it's processor ... does each one have a UPS ? What if someone gets realy mad at it & bangs it in just the right spot ... hiccup. How about a flood underground, or a bad storm outside ... computer realy like water & cold you know (last January the fareboxes go the chills one day).
Maybe I'm talking too much here, but I would suggest that the Station Agent or someone be able to monitior these things on a multi part screen somewhere, if they aren't even doing that we are going to have more incidents like the one that started this thread ! Oh oh that would require STAFF at or close to the station, bummer.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the MTA, TA or nycDOT & am speaking for myself not my employeer.
Mr t__:^)
We do monitor the MVMs. Many are within sight of the booth. ALl MVMs are interfaced with the computer (terminal) in the booth. We'll hear a beep from the computer and a message will appear on the lower right corner of the screen alerting us to a problem. If the machines are opened, either by revenue or any other way the terminal in our booth will beep and let us know the door is open. (Same for turnstiles). When a maintainer works on the MVM they sign on and that too is logged in our terminal (and at Jay Street.)
We have had cases of MVM vandalism and we do call the police and in most cases the suspect flees the station before the police arrive.
Cameras will do no good- I worked one station with an underpass which is monitored by CCTV (Closed Circuit TV) and one night my screens went white. Someone spray painted the cameras-one with white paint the other with black. It took 3 hours before a maintainer came to clean the cameras. If the station had been unattended the MVM could have been vandalized while awaiting a maintainer.
They don't make dumb terminals anymore.
Actually, they do, although they aren't incredibly popular any more. Sun Microsystems has at least three "second heads" in its line - we use them in our workcenters - and I suspect that there are other manufacturers out there who make them as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sure, you can still buy brand-new VT100 compatible dumb terminals.
Sun's "2nd head" offering is just another keyboard and video
port, not really a dumb terminal in the classic, TTY sense.
But in this context I think the poster, in using the phrase
"dumb terminal", did not mean one of those, but rather was discussing
the merits of a centralized vs distributed processing system
for metrocard and ezpass.
EZ Pass is the same 1 standalone for each entrance.
Arti
Here again this doesn't seem to make much since. I would have thought each BRIDGE would have a network of dumb terminals networked to a server that was connected to the mainframe. I can't believe that each booth/lane has it's own connection directly to the mainframe !
Has the technology changed all that much since I was part of it, i.e. the more individual users you have hanging off the mainframe, the slower the response time. So, guess what, the more E-Z-Pass spreads to more and more bridges, roads, etc. the more time you'll be spending there waiting for a green light. The MAN will become faster then the computer again ... I can't wait.
Mr t__:^)
Here again this doesn't seem to make much since. I would have thought each BRIDGE would have a network of dumb terminals networked to a server that was connected to the mainframe. I can't believe that each booth/lane has it's own connection directly to the mainframe !
Has the technology changed all that much since I was part of it, i.e. the more individual users you have hanging off the mainframe, the slower the response time. So, guess what, the more E-Z-Pass spreads to more and more bridges, roads, etc. the more time you'll be spending there waiting for a green light. The MAN will become faster then the computer again ... I can't wait.
INCORRECT
By having smart terminals, they can work on their own and thus prevent such things, so that eventually the dumb tolltakers (it doesn't take a brainiac to count money and press a button) will be replaced with license plate photography and EZ Pass only crossings (ex: Throgs Neck can have tolltakers, Triborough and Whitestone would not).
BTW, do you even know the difference between since and sense? I'm sorry, but these are the kinds of repeated spelling errors that DEMAND NOTICE. The two words aren't even homonyms!
[BTW, do you even know the difference between since and sense? I'm sorry, but these are the kinds of repeated spelling errors that DEMAND NOTICE. The two words aren't even homonyms!]
Eye due the best eye can, four a guy form the country, sorry.
Mr t__:^)
lol
You've got it backwards. The LESS dependant on the server a terminal is, the FASTER the response time. If EZPass used dumb terminals, the failure of the server would knock out EZPass for the entire plaza. With networked 'smart' terminals, any one of the terminals can go down, as could the server; but since the terminals can function independantly of the server, it would require a failure of both the server and all the terminals to knock out the plaza.
-Hank
Here is what they tell us:
Each station has a "Computer" located in a cabinet next to one of the turnstiles. They call it the Station Controller(SC). It is interfaced with the terminal in the boot (the BT or Booth Terminal). It is in turn communicating with Jay Street and sends/receives data from there. In stations with more than one booth there is still only one Station Controller and the other control areas communicate with the one SC.
If the SC goes down, so will the BT in the booth. The BT also has a file handler(FHU) and if it goes down our BT will be out but MVMs, turnstiles will still work (In either case it is a mandatory booth audit for us.)
If the SC goes down even turnstiles may refuse tokens and cards in which case we'd call supervision for permission to use the Non Revenue Fare Box (NRFB) which is the tall black object chained near the turnstiles. Those are emptied by Revenue- we dont have keys for those.
)That too is a mandatory booth audit).
I can not be more specific than this.
About the same at the "depots", i.e. we have a DC (Depot Computer) that controls the probe stations & printer. The DC can act independently of the mainframe, but if the DC goes down your only recourse is a PDP (Laptop that has limited storage & is very slow).
There are no MVMs or other retail capability on the DCs, so we don't have that headache (our retail business is by phone or mail). The only problem this presents is if we find a MC & have a customer who claims it's his/hers, we have no where to check it out without a 1.50 service charge (cost to dip it & see what happens). This is why I sometimes visit Main Street at lunch to use the "reader" there.
Mr t__:^)
Would it make sense to have a reader at each of the "privates" depots, in as much as Metrocards are accepted by "privates" fareboxes?
We all have a need to some extent for a Reader, but nycDOT decided it wasn't enough to justify the cost of 7 or 8 of them.
BTW, If the customer knows what kind of card they had, and about how much value or time was left on it we can (and do) call a number at the TA & have them scan the s/n in the system. That takes 24 hours, so I only need to go to Main Street if the customer is very excited at loosing the card in the AM and just has to have it back that day. Since I am going out to lunch anyway, it's no biggy for me so long as it doesn't happen every day.
Mr t__:^)
It's too bad that they can't interface a telephone VRU (Voice response unit) so that you can check balances.
That is precisely why WE are needed. It was station agents that alerted police to several people attempting to defraud the system.
Cameras, recordings and live police surveillance (that means actual cops on site) can replace that need.
seems to work for PATH
Peace,
ANDEE
There'a another way of looking at it: how much would the TA
lose per year to fraud, versus how much it costs to employ
rr clerks. Same logic by which the credit card companies allow
millions a year in fraud: the cost of doing business.
Well, that time of year has come again. Today is the last day for the RiverBus season.
The Wendella RiverBus is a commuter service in Chicago which operates on the Chicago River from Madison St (Union Sta and Ogilvie Transportation Ctr, terminals for many of the Metra rail lines) and North Michigan Ave.
Unfortunately, given Chicago's weather, it only runs April to October (acutally Nov. 3 this year). I guess I'll have to put up with the CTA bus or a long walk until April.
-- Ed Sachs
At 6:34 AM on Sunday November 3, 1963, PCC 7407 (now preserved at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum) pulled into Irvington Carhouse and closed out the 104 year history of streetcars in Baltimore.
For about 30 years at least! :) [Excluding BSM]
As of 3pm:
Salaam Allah on the "A" line to Far Rockaway.
PATH is extending the rush hour by adding more service on the end of the AM and PM rush-great!
They are also upasetting alot of people by canceling their 3 am express trains.
I recall the express trains were added because of crowding.
Why on earth would anyone need an express train at 3am?
"Why on earth would anyone need an express train at 3am?"
New Jerseyites returning from an evening on the town in Manhattan? What's the closing time for bars in NYC? (Here in Chicago, most liquor licenses require a 2am closing, but some places pay the extra money and go through the extra hoops to get a coveted 4am license.)
Remember that PATH isn't *just* used by the 9-to-5ers to get to and from jobs in Manhattan. :)
But does NJT even run at 3am for people to make a connection?
"But does NJT even run at 3am for people to make a connection?"
Probably not. But there must be *some* link to PATH at night because PATH runs 24hours, IIRC. What's the night bus service in New Jersey like? Is there any park-and-ride on or near the PATH system?
I think the original poster was referring to 3 trains that run express from Newark to the WTC during the A.M. rush hour -- not express trains at 3 A.M.
To answer the questions you've posed, though...
Most (if not all) NJT bus lines stop running overnight. The last runs to leave PABT are at about 1 AM, local lines vary.
NJT train service does not operate overnight, though there is a very early Trenton to NYC run (leaving Trenton before 4 AM I believe).
PATH runs 24/7, but overnight serves really only for the residents of Jersey City, Newark and Hoboken. There are no connecting services that I know of.
Thanks Charles! Before this change there were three PATh trains that ran express from Newark to WTC at arou8nd 730, 8 and 830 AM- the exact times varying with NJT changes.
Why on earth would anyone need an express train at 3am?
New Jerseyites returning from an evening on the town in Manhattan? What's the closing time for bars in NYC? (Here in Chicago, most liquor licenses require a 2am closing, but some places pay the extra money and go through the extra hoops to get a coveted 4am license.)
4am. Actually, PATH quite likely gets many bar patrons travelling in the opposite direction, Hoboken being well-known for its nightife.
"Last Call" in NYC is 4am.
Well today I did run the R142A on its first day back in service. The train ran on its old testing schedule. I ran it for the 8:08 and the 12:36 out of Pelham. The car Numbers where 7261-7270.
More later!
The R-142 was in service on the 2 line yesterday. It was the set with the Yankees wrap on the front.
I have to believe that the other two 142 sets should be available for service. The testing phase is officially over?
-Stef
Oh Goody!!!!!!!!!! let send those extra R36s back home to the 7 line after all the 7 line will be having more frequent Local/Exp service Staring Monday. EXP will run from 6 00 AM? to 10 00 PM more local service from 5 00AM to 11 00PM.
I hate to disappoint you, but I really don't think that's going to happen. Don't you think it's possible for management to have the exisiting fleet out an extra hour in the day rather than putting them away in the yard for the night?
-Stef
Just because there is additional express service doesn't mean additonal trainsets are required. If you need the same number of peak rush hour trains as previously. then the additional trains required in the non rush simply means that you lay up less trains after the rush/fewer put ins for the rush. The existing cars simply get additional mileage.
Unionport Yard is getting empty.... You should have 7211-40 and 7261-70 as of now. It appears 7241-50 are ready for service leaving only 7251-60, as the cars not available for service, just because they haven't been prepared. It makes me kind of wonder if we're going to have an equipment shift at Westchester Yard. As more 142As become available, we'll have to find a place to store mothballed Redbirds.
Did you know that Bombardier sent 5 more 142s? They came up on Wednsday Night. 6331-35 should be on 13 Track at the East, if I heard the radio transmissions correctly.
-Stef
Dave,
I take that back. 7221-30 are still being tested and had signs set for the 2 this evening as it made simulated stops along that line. 7241-50 should be over at Westchester Yard, no?
-Stef
Thanks Stef,
I did see another set of R142A's today but did not get those car numbers. But 7261-7270 are in service I had the train for 3 trips. The T.S.S and R.C.I where only on the train for the AM Rush Hour but I was alone most of the day with the R142A. Lots of people where taken pictures of the train.
As for the story of when more R142A's are going in service. A T.S.S told me one should be going in service every week. I do not know whats going on with the redbirds as of now but I will keep subtalk updated on it.
Also it sounds like that 15 day road test will not happen. The test was done with the train not in service.
Glad to be of assistance. Keep your eyes and ears open for developments at Westchester Yard. The TA may be ready to take more 142As from Yonkers and fill up Unionport Yard all over again.
-Stef
How can you get the same train for all 3 trips? Did they hold the train in the pocket for you during your lunch & time in between trips?
I have the same train for the 1st and 2nd trip. After the first trip I have about 2 Hours and 20 Minutes at Pelham and get the same train back for the 2nd trip. On the last trip I take the train behind it but because the T/O was not qualified to run the train the R142A was held for an extra 8 minutes for my run.
I had no problems with the train.
If they have anymore troubles on the Jerome lay-up track, they may have to keep the Redbirds around to replace the R-62s :-)
Perhaps, but it seems unlikely. With these 142 Additions, they'll start retiring equipment as planned. You can replace those 62s with a train of 62As, I'm sure. The management isn't going to send every last 62A from the 3 and 6 over are they? It would equate to more than 500 cars!
-Stef
To be serious, I'm sure at best the accident will mean one additional 10-car trainset of Redbirds would be mothballed or used for rush-hour service instead of being scrapped as planned.
Of course, I still think with the MBDF of the R-33/36WFs being No. 2 in the system behind Train Dude's R-68 Concourse fleet, they should just keep that group of trains together as is until they rebuild the Corona shop and modify Coney Island to handle the R-142 supplimental order or the R-160 (or whatever) order comes next.
Unless the body rot threatens the structural integrity of any of those cars in a collision, dumping a fleet that's more reliable right now than all but one other seems silly. Retire the rustiest Flushing Redbirds, move the best few `birds from the mainline over to Corona, put the R-142/142As primarily on the 2, 5 and 6 lines and have the R-62/62A primarily on the 1, 3 and 4 lines.
The TA never seems to think straight when new equipment arrives. They just want to get rid of the old stuff regardless of what shape it's in. Look at the Triplexes and the rebuilt R-10s and R-30s. All of those classes could have been kept longer, especially the Triplexes. I saw a number of R-33s during my visit two weeks ago which still looked excellent, with little or no corrosion.
when were the r16s retired?
1987. I understand they were ordered out of service.
> Of course, I still think with the MBDF of the R-33/36WFs being
> No. 2 in the system behind Train Dude's R-68 Concourse fleet,
> they should just keep that group of trains together as is . . .
But aren't those the ones with cars without air conditioning?
- Lyle Goldman
The R-33WFs are, but unless you strap some of the R-62 singles from the No. 3 line to them, you'd have to drop down to 10-car trains if you eliminated the singles and kept the ACed R-36WFs in service.
It just depends on priorities. I think breaking up the second-most reliable fleet in the system is silly, but if the goal is a 100 percent air-conditioned system, then they'll have to move the Corona fleet to the main line and get the R-62s out there.
The Chicago Transit Authority has taken a first step toward acquiring real estate for the proposed two-mile extension of the Orange Line from its present terminal at Midway Airport to Ford City. For the full story, see the November 2 news item on the History of the Chicago "L" site, at:
http://www.chicago-l.org/news.html
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
This is encouraging that the city is trying to aquire the land.
I don't think that article said that the CTA is really involved, yet, though.
Unfortunately, it takes such a long time to get anything done with the CTA, we might as well forget about this and talk about it in another 10 years.
The CTA has aquired the money for the Douglas and Ravenswood projects, but this is only about 1/2 of what they need to fully upgrage the system to what they consider a good running condition. They want the system to be up to a good running condition before they consider any extensions. The good news is that they do plan to start all of these projects necessary to bring the system up good condition by or in the 2005 budget. This means that 2006 will probably be the first year for them to even consider any new projects. I believe they will aquire the other half of the money through bonds, probably similar to the transportation bond act you guys have been talking about.
I am optomistic after they aquired the money for the Douglas and Ravenswood projects that they will be able to start these other projects by the end of 2005.
BJ
PS: A lot of work will still be done on the exsisting system over the next five years or so. This sounds like it will be very interesting and create a much different CTA rail system when it is all completed.
about an hour ago i spoke with bob... he is in town to attend a reunion for graduates of james madison high school celebrating the school's 75th anniversary... i was suppose to meet him early in the day to attend an open house at the school... he called to tell me that he got the flu bug and was going to rest up for the dinner tomorrow night... i won't be attending the dinner, as i received a check for $5000 from the alumni association in return for my promise not to attend and bring everyone down with my negativity...
now for the real reason i am posting this...
BOB... IF YOU READ THIS, CALL ME BACK... I HAVE AN OFFER THAT YOU MAY FIND HARD TO REFUSE...
[....he is in town to attend a reunion for graduates of james madison high school celebrating the school's 75th anniversary...]
Look out, Paul, Andrew "Dice" Clay ("I'm Over Here Now") might be there to bust your chops.
BMTman
Tell BMT Bob to get me my Mets World Series shirt. We get shirts for each other when we get into town. Tell him I still hate the Yankees and we're going to get A-Rod for the Mets and get even with the Bronx Bombers next year.
Mr. Steinbrenner will apply more of the cement that holds the ***AWESOME***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S*** Together $$$MONEY$$$??? NO!!! This is a professional sport , all the owners have $$$MONEY$$$, But Mr. Steinbrenner is committed to owning the best team for all time. The ***AWESOME***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S*** know that their jobs are secure and that if they need training,equipment,or coaching, they will get the best and that Mr. Steinbrenner is committed to extending the greatest legend in all of baseball, the historical supremacy of the ***AWESOME***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S*** over the last 100 years into the new millenium. It's about COMMITMENT!
Sorry, Fred, I never got to meet up with Bob. My weekend had a full plate -- including mainline tie replacement up at Branford Electric Railway (with the help of Thurston, Lou, Stef, and some guests).
I heard that Bob had the flu and I'm not even sure he met up with heypaul for their "class" reunion.
BMTman
Sorry to hear that about Bob. I will E-Mail him tonight to see if he is ok. Bob and I bave become great buddies on tbis site, as you probably know, and we love giving each other holy hell over the Mets vs the Yankees, Republicans vs Democrats, and New York vs California. I had a bad vacation this summer because I felt under the weather, and I hate to think Bob's homecoming was spoiled because of illness. BTW, those trips you guys have are easier for you since you all live in the east. However, when I retire in June I plan on taking a few trips a year to be a part of that. It sounds like great fun.
[Tell BMT Bob to get me my Mets World Series shirt.]
Sorry Bob but they are scarer then hens teeth. Best you can hope for is Mets/Yankee T-shirt, and even they are going going gone.
Mr t__:^)
Now that I have returned to the internet after 2 weeks with no modem in my household, I have a few things to report:
-There have been a good number of operating problems on the Broad Street Subway this past October. On one day, there was a stalled train on track 4 (northbound local) one morning, causing some reroutes, on the day of a more major west philly problem (I don't know what). On Tuesday, Halloween, there were two major problems in the morning. One was a malfunctioning at Erie tower, controlling all of the switches in crossovers north of the Erie Station. Nothing could get by in all direction, (either north or south) for some time. When they finally got the problem fixed, which was necessary by clamping the switches down, they got the switches on the northbound local track going before those on the express track. This angered my train operator, who runs the express. Yet it is somewhat understandable, because there is only 1 facing point and 1 trailing point north of Erie on the local track, as opposed to 2 facing and one trailing on the express, which means 1 more point to clamp down. I hear there was also a major problem on the Ridge Spur that day.
I rode the Frankford el today. All stations are finished except for a crossover at Allegheny, Berks, Huntingdon and Church. They are farther along than before, those three, but will definitely need more than one or two weekends to be finished. The plan called for closures to go to this weekend or next weekend. I have no clue about the ATO.
It's interesting that KYW had no reports on the Subway problems. Usually it's on the ball on these things. Of course, with all the political candidates calling at Olney Terminal lately (a usual haunt for such as Election Day approaches), maybe all the coverage was going toward them and not the service.
I was wondering if the El would be completed on time. I noticed cable trucks at work yesterday at Spring Garden. I wonder how the riders who are whisking (!) along on I-95 on the Neoplan articulated buses on the Frankford Express will react when weekend El service returns.
Speaking of Philly subways, has anyone heard any news on the latest Roosevelt Boulevard proposals?
Michalovic
Tonight, at around 6:30 P.M., my father was on a Coney-Island-bound F train around Bergen Street, when the train wouldn't move for about half an hour! Does anyone here know why that happened?
- Lyle Goldman
There was brakes in emergency on a train at Fourth Ave. As to the cause and why it took so long to restore service, I was in Queens at the time and out of that base station area.
> As to the cause and why it took so long to restore service, I was in Queens at
> the time and out of that base station area.
So you're saying that you caused it? (:-)
Actually, what I heard was that a train tripped a signal, but I don't know how that happened or even if it's true. Does anyone here have more information?
- Lyle Goldman
The other night I was going back in to the city on the LIRR. Right at the entrance to the east river tunnels, the train stopped, the conductor opened one door and let two employees? out. Right at the tunnel entrance?
The other night I was going back in to the city on the LIRR. Right at the entrance to the east river tunnels, the train stopped, the conductor opened one door and let two employees? out. Right at the
tunnel entrance?.
It could be. Hopping on a train is probably the easiest way for track workers to get to the area, if there's just a couple of them.
I've seen it a few times. There is a tower there, plus the set of emerg. engines. May also be where Sunnyside workers can hitch a ride.
Coming out of the tunnel (going East) there's a little platform where they get off. Since I rode the 1st car on my way home I would see them tell the T/O they wanted to get off. Don't know how the get a pick up ... flag 'em down, a phone/radio call from somewhere ?
P.S. I've also seen them do this at engine facility on the Atlantic Ave line (just before Jamaica) ... there is a little platform there too.
Mr t__:^)
P.S. I've also seen them do this at engine facility on the Atlantic Ave line (just before Jamaica) ... there is a little platform there
too.
Boland's Landing. The 6:53 from Ronkonkoma to Flatbush Avenue announces it as one of the scheduled stops ("for LIRR employees only"). You hear similar announcements for Hillside, but unlike the case with Hillside Boland's Landing doesn't appear in the online public timetable.
What happens if a passenger who is not a employee gets off at an employee only stop?
He doesn't get paid.
That is unlikely to happen. The crew getting off either has their own key or the Conductor opens one door & has seen the folks before, so a "passenger" would get questioned right away.
It would be a very bad thing if someone did get off. First it's unlikely they could flag down the next train, second they would have trouble getting to the street, third it would be hazardious for them to cross the tracks and ask for help. Oh I sudder at the thought.
Mr t__:^)
When I used to ride more frequently from Atlantic Avenue at night (about 15 years ago) eastbound trains would be flagged with a lantern at Boland's Landing. As the train sped through the tunnel, you'd see this moving light at the end -- and sure enough, we'd make a stop for a few employees.
A couple? I used to ride a train from Jamaica to Hunterspoint in the 1960's, I think it was the 7:31 out of Jamaica (from PJ). The rear car was almost all Pennsylvania Railroad employees, and the engineer of that train knew....so he's creep past Sunnyside, and they'd be bailing out the rear steps of the train onto the roadbed.
Looked like paratroopers dropping out of a plane in those WWII movies....
Never saw anyone ever trip/roll at Sunnyside, but there'd always be some fool commuter try it on the platforms at Hunterspoint and wind up ass over teakettle.
This happens on Manhattan-bound PATH trains as well. There are two employee stops: one at the facility west of Harrison, and one at the yard just outside the portal.
This was prompted by a previous post on workplace accidents and something I saw at New Haven.
At New Haven I saw one of those ever popular, morale boosting banners proclaiming "Amtrak Station Services: 6 years accident free" or something to that effect. My first reaction was "::scoff:: this is bunk, what kind of accidents can a station service worker be prone to, getting their nose caught in the ticket printing machine?" I generally found this banner rather amusing, but I have seen signs like these at transit crew depots all over. There was one at Dover NJ proclaiming 213 days w/o a time off injury. My question is are these motovational injury signs posted at MTA crew bases? Whose job is it to change the numbers? What is the current highest number? Has anyone EVER seen one of these signs reading 1 or 0 days without an injury? That's a Kodak moment right there.
Springfield Airport
## Days without a crash
(sorry, I don't remember the number!)
Those "safety" signs are all over the place in the TA. In the beginning they updated them daily(yes, I did see a couple of them revert to zero after an injury) but now they either stay blank or they have the same number on them for two months straight. In other words, they're gathering dust.
And as far as station people getting injured, that happens more often than you would think. Slips and falls(especially under snowy conditions), chemicals burning skin(i.e.bleach), assault or other versions of inattention to duties can result in an injury.
The R142s carry a digital sign proclaiming "XX days since
last failure", however, when last I looked, the sign was
out of service.
No, I think it got its message accross.
These signs are used al over in any industry. The safety office uses them to remind people to be safe and not take unacceptable risks (shortcuts). Example is taking two to life a box, whereas one would cause a back injury.
Lets look at it differently. Instead of numbers of days since last injury (which result in x number of manhours lost), how about miles travel before failure (which result in number of cars available for service).
A GO, originally slated for the weekend of the World Series is now in effect. Surprisingly, there was no mention of it this week on the MTA site, and stations on the 2 and 5 don't appear to have anything either (at least Jackson). It should be in effect today and tomorrow, 8AM to 7PM. The Booth probably put something up on their writing board at the last minute.
The southbound local track is now out of service south of Jackson Av to 149th St Grand Concourse. 3rd Av has trains running in both directions on the uptown side. As for procedure, the soutbound 2 runs normally to Jackson Av. Upon entering Jackson Av, the T/O dumps the train, and a another operator comes aboard on the north end, charges up, and pulls the train northbound over the switch into Track M at Prospect Av. The regular operator can now pull his train south down the middle towards 3rd Av. As a note of interest, since Trains are wrong railing to 3rd Av, the T/O will not get a proper lineup. He/she must pass two automatic signals at the request of the dispatcher stationed in the area for these unusual moves. The T/O moves up to the interlocking signal and waits for the baton. When the baton is received, the downtown train gets clearance to key by the homeball and move onto the uptown track. Watch out and plan extra time for the commute! There's heavy riding on the 2, and 5's aren't running between Grand Concourse and East 180th Street.
Coming up: A concrete pour, plus switch replacement at 125th St upper level will disrupt 4 and 5 train service the following two weekends. 4 Trains will operate between Wooodlawn and 125th St, and 125th St and Utica Av. Since the work is on the upper level, Bronx Bound 4's will most likely be leaving from the lower level of 125. 5 Trains will be operating Dyre Av shuttle service the entire weekend.
-Stef
Stef: i was in the train in the afternoon & it was a pain in the ass because i took me from downtown manhattan to bronx almost two half hours. I see alot of people complaint about the not showing up in time & some of #5 trains make last stop at 149th St & Grand Concourse also some of #2 trains go to 148th St Lenox Term. Well it the worse day & now i have a headace because of those stupied G.O.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Well the GO was made worse by the fact that a contractor doing the signals on the White Plains line inadvertently cut a feeder cable in the vicinity of Bronx Park East, knocking out signals in the area down towards East 180th Street. There were going to be problems as a result. Fortunately, it appears that the GO is only in effect today until 7 PM, according to the notices. Tomorrow, service should be normal. The guard rail and running rail were being replaced in sections near the switch south of Jackson Av.
If you've read the notices, in the coming weeks, 2 service will be knocked out between Gun Hill Rd and 241 St.
-Stef
Because, of that idiot contractor, I was an hour late for work. I left my house at 10:30 this morning and didn't get to work until 1:00.
Well that should be it for that crazy GO on the 2/5. The work on the White Plains Line is far from over....
-Stef
TWU has been saying for years that these private non union contractors working in a union facility (TA property) do shoddy work because they get their contracts for one reason and one reason only: the submitted the lowest bid in a process set up by the politicians. And guess what? You get what you pay for! That contractor would not have cut that cable if he knew what he was doing! The TWU people know their system. They can do the job better then these fly by nite contractors who would not be in business if it weren't for the TA.
yes i was part of that GO it was a very slow.I got on at the Dyre Avenue station only to find out that it only went to East 180th street, got off there and waited for about 15 minutes for a 2 train which was packed and became even more crowded from the Dyre Avenue people who got dumped off at East 180th.We stopped at Jackson Avenue, the train reversed itself and went on the middle track.We waited again for about 10 minutes for a northbound 2 train.switched over and went on the uptown track past where a crew of workman appeared to be working on a switch, I guess pulled into the 3rd avenue 149th station people on the platform were confused, the platform was crowded, and of course people had to get off there,making even more mass confusion.We moved into Manhattan where I saw redbirds going to 148th street I saw about three trains, I guess they were diverted from going to 241st street due to the single tracking, They had Flatbush Avenue signs.
That was the other part of the GO. Some 2's were diverted to 148th Street, leaving customers in the Bronx waiting every 20 mins for a train. Yeah, I'm sure it was the pits, but it was an unusual operation. A TSS was on the platform at Jackson Av telling customers of how service was operating. He came to tell me and I said I knew about it, although there didn't seem to be any advanced warning of it.
-Stef
GO OVER!
-Stef
You are right Stef, I forgot about the GO today that is why the redbirds were at the Concourse yard.
I would like to know if there is going to be limited through service for the 63 St/Queens Blvd Connection in Jan 2001 & if so, what hours or days will the service operate & what line will operate through the connection.
Look!!! No one knows!!! If anyone finds out, they will post it!!! Stop asking these stupid questions that nobody's going to know the answers to or it's KILLFILE time!!! Stop asking questions concerning "Manhattan Bridge", "63 Street", or "Connection"!!!
running on...
R68A-5200:
My best guess is there won't be any service on the 63rd St. connection until 2002 at the earliest. I anyone has any information on the 63rd St. connection I guess it will be posted when the time come. Until then we can't cross that bridge until we come to it.
BMTJeff
Cross that bridge? Don't you mean, "Cross that tunnel?"
:-)
running on...
Well, follo always asks about the bridge as well, so it applies. So how do we cross the river, by bridge or by tunnel?
BOAT!
(A little West Indian humor I got from a co-worker)
R68A-5200:
I did mean cross that tunnel in a sense when I said cross that bridge.
BMTJeff
There's a certain bridge in lower Manhattan that we can't cross, even when we come to it!!
Until then we can't cross that bridge until we come to it.
I thought it was a TUNNEL
Elias
Stop asking questions concerning "Manhattan Bridge"
Hey! the Manhattan Bridge Questions were intersting, and I learned things I hadn't known before.
But I *did* find out why New Yorkers are so depressed!
(Because the Light at the end of the Tunnel is *New Jersey*)
Hehehehehe......
Elias
Well, I meant future service patterns concerning the Manhattan Bridge.
running on...
Yes!
I have it from the signal contractor's technicians that the track should be ready for trains to run through it in tests, the second weekend of December. Sometime after that in later December or early January they will begin using the tube for through F trains at night and on the weekends for G.O. purposes.
By the way, I am back to Construction Flagging for the new pick, so the my adventures will be posted once again.
(Sometime after that in later December or early January they will begin using the tube for through F trains at night and on the weekends for G.O. purposes.)
How about re-routes? One of the killers is the way the QB line gets backed up, and any delay on the express tracks means rush hour doom. If they could shift trains over from time to time, that could reduce these delays.
but they'd have to make the anounc. at Rooservelt so the people who need Queens Plaza can switch
(but they'd have to make the anounc. at Rooservelt so the people who need Queens Plaza can switch)
There aren't a lot of those, and they can always go back from Manhttan. You can get the #7 at 42nd and 6th, or get the Broadway line at 34th Street.
lots of people take the exp. to QP then switch to the r to get the 4 or 5 at 59 rather then trans at lex-51 then at 42
It still beats not moving at all.
Arti
Not to mention those transferring to the 6 at Lexington, since there is no transfer from the 63rd St. line. Probably close to half the train would get off a 63rd St.-bound train at Roosevelt Ave. to get on the already packed 53rd St.-bound train behind it to make this transfer.
If that happened, ut would probably be faster to stay on the rerouted F and transfer to an uptown F at 47-50 Sts. to get to Lexington.
[Not to mention those transferring to the 6 at Lexington, since there is no transfer from the 63rd St. line]
If you had unlimited Metrocard you could walk 3 blocks to Lex &59th.
Arti
One of the dumbest things I have seen the TA do is NOT connect those two stations for passengers. There is a closet from off the token booth area for electrical gear that has a second door opposite the first; it opens out oun to the downtown Lexington local platform! Would have made a lot of sense to just have made that a passage.
How difficult would it be to put in a passageway within the fare control area of both stations? If I understand you correctly, the closet is inside fare control on the Lex, but outside at 63rd.
subfan
Yes it is, you are correct but the room contains equipment which would likely be expensive to move. Electrical gear and the like.
Would it be difficult to build a seperate, parallel connecting passageway? With the opening of the 63rd Street connector, it seems that a large nubber of former F or R riders will now end up going through the 63rd & Lex stop, thereby losing the connection at either 53rd or 59th & Lex, unless such a passageway is constructed.
subfan
you seem to have a lot of hostility to you. i understand that some of the questions may get well quite repetitive, but please understand that there are alot of new people who are learning about the subway system. just be patient or DON'T RESPOND TO THE QUESTION. it's just that simple. I remember the first time i checked out this site and i asked questions. i recall there were a few people who were downright rotten to the core but the majority were very helpful. so plese if it is someone new asking what you or i consider an old question you can answer -youn can also refuse to do so as well.
Well, this person isn't new. This person has asked this question many many many times and everytime someone has told that person that it is unknown and will be posted as soon as it is. What would you do? You'd wait, right? Nooo, he decides to ask the same question every week. I'm sure you'd act differently and wouldn't repost over and over, right? Would you my actions justified?
running on...
You haven't been here in the last week, huh? 'follo' has asked the say couple of questions twice a week for the last month. Usually, the questions are easily found just by reading the post IMMEDIATELY BELOW his question.
-Hank
I got some questions for follo:
When will he cease to ask these stupid questions? How many times will his questions go unanswered before he decides to ask them again? Why is he so obsessed about the opening dates of the 63rd. St connection? Is he having his wedding on Roosevelt Island and he wants to make sure his grandparents from Rego Park can get there without having to go into Manhattan?
It is a new week so we have to ask when the 63rd st tunnel connector will go in to service.
Yes there will be. The P train will run express late nights from Coney Island to 179 St via the 63 Street Connection. Then the 4 train will hang a right at 63 St. since it is really exicted about the opening as well. Then the L train will make a suprise cameo appearance during the Feburary Sweeps to bring in more riders so the TA will get more revenue from advertising. The G train, mad that it has been cut back to Court Sq., plans revenge on the V train for stealing its cars. When it is all over, the season will end with the blowing up of the Manhattan Bridge.
LOL
Rob, you're crazy, man! I haven't laughed like that in ages!
Sarcasm definitely doesn't become you, my friend!
Who says I'm being sarcastic? My sources are so reliable that even Train Dude is jealous :-)
Dude, u forgot the R and 7 train. they're mad as hell.they werent inclued ,and had to watch for years at QUEENSBORO PLAZA!
NBC is looking for a few good writers, with "Deadline" just canceled after 5 episodes ....
--Mark
Don't forget to take the "P", across the platform, against the wall.
And watch out for the third rail.:-)
No time soon. What do you do with the Q train layups between rush hour??
Money train , and gawbitch train.
avid
I rode on the Woodlawn Line today, I noticed in the concourse yard a group of R-33 Dyre Avenue redbirds, are these trains about to be scrapped? I think there were about three trains or so..
No way! There is no notice of any retirements as of yet. Let them get a sufficient amount of R-142/R-142A equipment into service before that happens. They were probably being stored due to the fact that the GO on the 2/5 was in effect.
Also, Redbird 4s get stored down in Concourse on occasion.
-Stef
I have finally completed my layout of the B-Division. There are virtually no problems with it except that there are a number of departure failures. Along with the layout, I created some R131 (R110B) cars for my layout too. Enjoy! If you find anything that needs to be changed, e-mail me. Thanks.
http://r68a5200.homestead.com/files/bxx0500.zip
running on...
I did create a BAHN 3.59 system for the entire NYCTA subway system. If anyone wants to use it to create more current layouts than the 1967 date I depicted, feel free to do so.
I also created a set of "elevated" graphics for use with BAHN layouts. If anyone wants it, let me know at:
shoskins@ix.netcom.com
Be glad to send the graphics along to you!
Is it a file called "ELEVATED.UZG"? If it is, it's needed to properly display this layout of yours. Is there a web site I can download it from or do I need it e-mailed to me. If the latter, use the e-mail link provided in the line above (where it says "Posted by R36 #9346 on...") I opened the file without this and I see all these big U's on either side of the tracks, i.e. U030, U032, U029, etc. (I'm using version 3.70 B7.)
Yes, that IS the file that is necessary. Once you instal it with your BAHN layouts (in the same directory) and then set the user graphics selections to this file, it will make your layout look slightly better than all those symbols indicating a missing graphic.
I will send you the file as soon as I finish here....
SJH
I tried that link but my Netscape is telling me a network error is preventing me from downloading the file.
Hmmm... seems to work fine on my system. I'll try to copy my Geocities site later. Busy now. Sorry. :-(
running on...
Must have been my Netscape. I used I.E. and it downloaded fine!
Usually I like Netscape because it is faster but I guess there was a compatability problem. I looked at your B division file and it is very nice!
I would like to get a radio scanner. Is there anything I should look for or know about scanners?
Dan
nyrail.cjb.net
Go to Radio Shaque and get the one that costs $90-100 (basic model). It will be more than enough for all your railfan needs. If you want the best I've heard that the Sony Wavehawk is really good and it covers 1-1200MHz inclusive. I'm sure if you look on the internet you can find stuff that can recieve cell phones also. This might come in handy in the Wall St. area. You'll also need to get a Radio Shaque hand held tape recorder ($26) and a 6 foot mono-mono dubbing cable so you can easily record what you scan.
Thanks, I don't have that much spare cash now, but I'll be sure to get one. I have a Minidisc recorder so I can redord digitally.
Dan
I'm sorry, I forgot to ask what is the frequency range that a good radio scanner for railfanning should have. I intend to use this with transit, LIRR, MNRR, Amtrak, CSK/NS/Conrail etc.
Thanks.
Dan
Since they go from 1-1200 MHz, can you receive FM Radio? What's the resolution (it would have to be 200 KHz or less for FM Radio)? And what happens when you tune to a TV channel? like 77 MHz.
Unless it has Wideband mode, you'll get TV audio in narrow band, so it'll sound a little wierd. The video signal is just a hum.
--Mike
I certainly hope that you are not recommending to young Daniel,
a minor, that he engage in the illegal practice of monitoring
or, even worse, recording cell phone conversations!
I thought that child labor laws made it illegal for people under eighteen to work in mines.
Radio Shack sells quite a few. Make sure you get 800 Mhz trunked coverage so you can get the bands the MTA buses use.
The following message originally appeared on the SCAN-L mailing list. I'm posting it here in its entirety. Since it addresses RR monitoring, these radios will serve your needs...
Let me know if you have any more questions...
--Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan" ks4hr@NETZERO.NET
To: SCAN-L@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 4:10 PM
Subject: Starter scanners on sale.
For those looking for a starter scanner, Wal-mart has the BC-45XLT 20
channel for $49.88. Small amount of channels by today's standards, but good for the RR monitor.
Radio Shack has the Pro-75 200 Ch for $99.99, with 200 channels a great RR scanner, set first 97 channels with the RR standards.
Bryan in Appomattox County, VA
Usual disclaimer applies, your mileage may vary, yada..yada..yada...
--
FAQ: http://plaws.net/scan/scan-l.txt | NO COMMERCIAL POSTS!
Most scanners will get you all the RR frequencies, only if you want to listen to the Aircraft band will you need to pay attention to what the scanner covers. By law all new scanners have the cell phone frequencies blocked. It is against the law to listen to cell phone conversations.
Why is it against the law to listen to the emectro-magnetic fields that pass through your very body? I'm sure you can find a REAL scanner online somewhere. Back in the 80's the Radio Shaque manuals even told you how to get cell phone transmissions.
Technically speaking, you CAN jerry-rig a common handheld scanner to pick-up UNSCRAMBLED cell phone signals. But you would need some knowledge of radio electronics.
BMTman
It's because our brain-dead lawmakers decided that they could prevent themselves from being embarassed (like Newt's cellphone call that started all of this) by simply making it illegal (never mind that the Communication Act of 1934 says it isn't illegal). They completely ignored the fact that the law already made it illegal to divulge the contents of any transmission to others, and they could have gone after people based on the existing law. But that would have made too much sense.
On a related note, it is legal to listen to "tone-only" pager broadcasts, but it is illegal to listen to numeric or alphanumeric pager broadcasts. But all 3 types are transmitted on the same frequency! So you have to listen to it to know if it's a transmission you are allowed to listen to (how's that for brain-dead?).
The law prohibits the import or sale of receivers that can be "easily converted" to receive the forbidden frequencies. Some manufacturers are more creative in interpreting that than others - some radios have the block implemented in their firmware and you'd need different firmware to enable the frequencies, while others (used to?) have a jumper, diode, etc. which is read by the firmware to tell it that it is Ok to receive them.
I still don't think we should be promoting illegal activites on this board even if the law is "dumb". What a person does is what a person does (or is that do). Old scanners can get the cell phone freq and new ones can be modifed, there are even books on it, that is legal (the books) but using the scanner once the mod is doen isn't.
I'm not "promoting any illegal activity" - I was answering the previous post which asked "why is it illegal". BTW, it is not necessarily against the law to use a modified scanner (for example, if you are an employee of a cellular carrier conducting tests, you are allowed, though in practice they wouldn't use that as they have dedicated test equipment for the purpose). I also think simply having a modified scanner is now illegal, though I'm not familiar with the latest set of laws.
Well what I found out is that the Sony Wavehawk pickes up just about everything including cell phones. However, only analog cell phone can be intercepted by a scanner. Digital phones are digital and require de-encryption.
Dan
Well what I found out is that the Sony Wavehawk picks up just about everything including cell phones. However, only analog cell phone can be intercepted by a scanner. Digital phones are digital and require de-encryption.
Dan
here's a list most RR freq. http://www.eastrailnews.com/rr101/aarradiofreq.html
You might want to check out http://www.grove-ent.com/ for a used scanner. The prices are pretty good. Look in Bob's Bargain Bin.
A good informative site is at http://www.strongsignals.net/
-- Kirk
11/04/2000
Today I traveled to Atlantic Ave (2,3) to check out the work on the station. The long disused stairs that lad up to the landmark koisk was exposed with daylight cascading in. It seems that the stairwell from street level to the first landing has new "I" beams supporting the space which will be filled in.
It is my guess that the long disused stairs from platform to first landing will be eliminated since when the kiosk returns, it will no longer be used for passenger use.
This complex should be a challenge to make it ada accessible. With plenty of steep stairs and no ramps, this should be interesting. In the corridor underneath the LIRR station, the ceiling has been stripped to the original masonary work. Atlantic Ave (D)(Q), a dungeon with tracks is long overdue for rehab. BTW, there seems to be excatvation next to the LIRR handicapped elevator. Is this elevator being moved or a new one for the subway being installes ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Well I first got my 11:32am N21 out of Glen Cove. Fairly crowded and 10 minutes late (and a slow Cummins).
Get off at Great Neck and wait for the 12:49pm train to Penn. Right on time and the front car open and empty. Before Bayside we were switched to the eastbound track. It felt weird being wrong railed we managed our normal speeds on there.
After going through more switches around Shea, the train got some good speed in the stretch through Corona.
Nice fast ride through Sunnyside, and as we went into the tunnel I walked toward the front window. Cab door open as usual and a large conductor looking out what the part of the exposed window. I just looked through cab and what little I could see out of the window.
Those east river tunnels are nice, were at 60mph for a good part of the tunnel trip. The tunnels are so much better lit than the subway tubes (why?). There were some pretty major leaks near the Manhattan end under the river. The tunnel ceiling did appear to be decaying a bit, and the catenary was easily visible. Fast slowdown just prior to Penn, otherwise a pretty fast 2 1/2 minute tunnel ride.
Later I took a "D" southbound through the 34th-W4th dash. The R68 train actually appeared to go pretty fast, looking out though the semi-front window. Perhaps the "Hippos" merely feel slower because they sway alot slower than the other trains.
On the way back from Chinatown a Slant R40 was on the B! I thought I was seeing things while waiting at Grand St.
Another nice fast ride in the dash (I love that sweet dash!). There is a certain sweet smell in the dash that is so nice.
Took it all the way to Queensbridge, and a fast ride through the beautuful 63rd street tunnels. The architecture is very nice in those florescent lit tunnels.
On the way back from 21st I had an R68A "B" train, which did fairly well in the 63rd street tube, which has good grades for the 75 footers.
Later going back I took an F to Briarwood. The F train (R46 as front window covered) was pretty fast through 53RD st tubes. We ran "express" after Queens Plaza, but slow around the new interlocking with 63rd street) but was fast right on through 71st/Continental.
Took the Q20A bus back from Briarwood, and we managed to keep the Q44 behind us (Q44, some express!). The Q44 which was right behind us was 8 minutes behind by the time we got to Flushing.
Then another lousy, migrant packed N21 bus ride home. Rough crowd on there man. I guy took out a pocket knife showing it to his friend and playing with the lighter. He actually lit the lighter, on the moving N21 bus, another slow Cummins.
I still prefer F train to the Q20/Q44 at Briarwood, mainly because the 7 train is the subway's equivalent to the N21. So many beautiful chinese girls in Flushing but I never see that many on the 7? Wonder why?
Thats because they all take the LIRR. LOL LOL :)
I had a little excursion myself this afternoon, although my time was limited to about 3 hours from 4-7 PM.
I took an NJTransit bus (#195) into the PABT, then debated over which subway line to get on - I opted for the #7 train (there's a surprise - I am drawn to the #7, it is my favorite line, with the redbirds that have the "blinking" lights!), getting on the one on the north track (the one that would change tracks after leaving the station), so I could experience the lights going off (one of my favorite moments on the #7 train! This and the Flushing end).
I rode out to Flushing, then on the way back, I got off at Woodside to enjoy the view, sunset, and mild air. I caught the next train and got off at 40th Street, deciding to take a bus on Queens Blvd into Manhattan. I waited for about ten minutes and a Green Lines Q60 bus (RTS #206) pulls up and I got on. The damn thing was a rattle trap! Probably a chain-smoker too (didn't see the back of the bus as it pulled away), judging from fairly recent reports about Green Lines smoking habits.
It rattled across the 59th Street Bridge and discharged at 60th and 2nd. I was debating on whether to get on the Roosevelt Island Tram, but time contraints dissuaded me. I rode it once before, and will definately have to do it again. I started walking over to Lex Ave to catch a bus going down to GCT, when I turned around and noticed a Q32 behind me (Orion 522), realizing that it ran along 60th. What caught my attention, though, was the orange destination signs. Anyway, I jumped on that and decided to stay on that down to 42nd, even though it ran (crawled) down 5th, so I would have to walk over to Grand Central. We crawled down 5th and I took in the scenes, with Liberty Lines and NYBS buses running alongside us.
When I got off in front of the main library, there was a crowd gathered around a group of sidewalk entertainers - a VERY good drummer on drum set (a real one, not concrete buckets) as well as a couple of dudes breakdancing. I had to break away from that, that drummer had such a mean beat going!
At Grand Central, I planned to visit the Transit Museum store, but discovered that it closed at 4 (it was now almost 6). So I headed to the lower level food court for a bite. I settled on a German sausage place (forgot the name - I picked up a menu, but I either dropped it or somebody swiped it), selecting a pork sausage with saurkraut and a side of chili. I took it over to a table and studied the pictures of schedules and tickets of Metro-North, NY Central, Penn Central, and New Haven Railroad while working on the sausage, which was pretty damn good, as well as the chili. That place is awesome! I could spend a good couple hours wandering around GCT. As for the dining concourse, in the future I would like to try the Indian place, as well as the German place again. Too bad they don't have a Greek or Chinese place (at least I didn't see one).
Feeling satisfied, I walked to the subway concourse and walked to the #7 train via the downtown Lex platform - just as an R-142 #6 train was departing!
I got on the 7 and all the way to Times Square, I crossed my fingers, hoping it would take the crossover. Unfortunately, we hit the crossover and the lights merely flickered as we stayed on the same track.
Then it was a relaxing ride on the #192 bus back to Jersey.
The German place is called Knödel. There is a Chinese place there - Nem - it's at the southwest corner of the concourse.
You shouldn't feel bad about Queens Transit RTS buses rattling. We have some out here where I drive that are 1980 models. They ratlle like hell, but OH!, do they fly!!! I'd much rather drive one of them that the pieces of crap (Gillig Phantoms) that we have at one of our other garages....
I settled on a German sausage place (forgot the name - I picked up a menu, but I either dropped it or somebody swiped it), selecting a pork sausage with saurkraut and a side of chili ... Then it was a relaxing ride on the #192 bus back to Jersey.
Of course, you had the bus all to yourself :-)
There is one, sometimes two, Slant R40 on the "B" ONLY on the weekends. These are "Q" trains during the week.
wayne
Yep, saw 2 slants on the B this weekend on the CI tour. One right after the other.
Train#1901Mike
What do folks think about the New York State Transportation Bond Act that will be on the ballot on November 7th? You can find information at:
http://www.state.ny.us/transportation/
David
I brought up this issue last week. Go back some posts.
3TM
Adam Sandler, in a role he was born to play, is the spawn of the devil in "Little Nicky". The movie is set in NYC. On a commercial currently running for the movie, there's a view of an onrushing subway train. It says 'K' and in smaller letters 'express' in the familiar MTA bullet. As we know, there's no K train, and only the redbirds have local or express indicators.
So, why the inaccuracy? Would it kill them to get a detail like this right?
Or, are the moviemakers under some kind of restriction to NOT show an actual NYC subway line?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The K is red, the real K on every B division rollsign is blue.
The EXPRESS sign below the bullet is exactly like the one below the Diamond-6 on the R-62, not Redbird.
I don't know if this was previously addressed, but the images of subways on bootleg subway series t-shirts are bogus. Some show a picture of a Pullman coach with railings, one that looked like a green R-10, some show a subway with flanges on both sides of the wheel, and I saw one with a monorail. Most of the others tried to look like NYC subways, but nonemof them did. They all had inaccuracies, like placement of doors and windows, design of the carbody, etc. But people buy them.
Dan
nyrail.cjb.net
the images of subways on bootleg subway series t-shirts are bogus.
No - not all of them. Some of them are officially licensed from the MTA. I, for one, have a tee-shirt and two sweatshirts depicting R-10s (and these are real images), one of which, if you examine it really carefully, has some R-1/9s coupled to the back of the R-10 (meaning it has to be 1575, or the picture was taken in the yard before scrapping). These are not drawn in or morphed images - these are real.
--Mark
I saw one being sold at the Palisades Center mall that had two R-110B's coming towards eachother!!
One had a green bullet #4 sign and the other R-110B was tinted a Redbird red with a purple #7 bullet.
These Subway Series shirts have some wild designs on them. I'm thinking of collecting them, but everytime you turn around, another one pops up. It can be quite an expensive hobby.
Expensive isn't the word! Ah the price to pay for a hobby. I've gotten quite a selection of these shirts; I'll be eating peanut butter and jelly for months to come.
At the price of jelly nowadays, you might not do too well, Joe!!!
You are right about that, Steve. So I'll eat it plain, or with other condiments, like butter or honey. Or Chocolate!!!
Joe C
One possible explanation is that the MTA has become very anal
about considering the images of its stations and rolling stock
to be intellectual property subject to copyright and license.
I'm not kidding.
You're close ... the MTA does not allow its equipment (or its image) to be negatively depicted in films. That's why there's so much "artistic license" involved.
Also, recent Transit Museum tours (at least those that used to go to closed/abandoned areas) no longer allowed the use of a camcorder. The theory is, I think, that this could be used by terrorists to plant bombs. Depicting the MTA "realisticly" in movies might also be used by terrorists in this manner.
I know, farfetched, I know ....
--Mark
I saw another ad last night for something( I forget what) that has a man sittign on a subway train the Roll sign above him saw F CONEY ISLAND, but the car is clearly not MTA
No, I'm pretty sure that the MTA is also interested in collecting
royalties for the use of images of its equipment and stations.
The concern over terrorism and what not is another factor.
That security angle is what originally made it illegal to photograph
in the transit system without a photo permit, a World War II
provision that was still on the books until the early 90s when
someone sued and got it thrown out.
I think that photo permit provision, though not enforced, is still on the books, the lawsuit notwithstanding.
--Mark
The Times on Sunday, November 5 reports that the 9th Avenue El tunnel will be sealed up soon. Good thing Mark W and company salvaged some nifty stuff on last winter's tours.
A guy from the mayor's office told me as much a few weeks ago...
www.forgotten-ny.com
11/05/2000
That tunnel has been sealed and reopened many times.
A final sealing of the tunnel will require a very thick concrete wall. Unless the neighborhood denizons have jack hammers !
Bill "Newkirk"
Is there an on-line link to this article?
Also, I contacted that same guy from the Mayor's office and asked him to consider allowing us one last walk through the tunnel in advance of its permanent "sealing". Sort of, if you'll pardon the pun, a "closing ceremony".
We'll see ...
--Mark
Only the $2.50 times charges to get articles from the archive. I looked. If I have time to visit a library to photo copy it I will try but I'm too busy this week.
Since you're from Brooklyn you should join NYPL, then you get access, via Proquest, to the last 90 days of the Times, FREE.
Brooklyn Public Library membership is a waste of time.
Oh BTW, Proquest is accessible at the NYPL website, AT HOME!
Proquest is a great database full of newspaper articles from all over the country. Being in college in GA, I get free access to Proquest, Lexis-Nexis, and tens of other databases full of info about any subject. I can (and have) get tons of sources for research papers in 30 or so minutes without ever getting off my ass. Found lots of stuff on subways, too.
Which 9th Avenue El tunnel is this? Where is it located?
The Polo Grounds Shuttle.
As Jeff stated, it's the Polo Grounds shuttle remains.
Read all about it.
--Mark
There is such a shortage of space in the city, you'd think they could use the tunnel for something. Heck, outside Kansas City they use caves for offices, stores, industrial parks, etc.
How about a school? Or storage for City vehicles?
There is such a shortage of space in the city, you'd think they could use the tunnel for something. Heck, outside Kansas City they use caves for offices, stores, industrial parks, etc.
How about a school? Or storage for City vehicles?
A street would have to be built under the Major Deegan to allow the vehicles to get to it, and I guess it would be limited to cars and vans due to size restrictions.
The other end at Jerome/Andersen is above you, so some kind of ramp would have to be build from 163rd St to get up there.
I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.
--Mark
Why are there ventilation gratings in the median of Fourth Avenue? These end exactly where the Sea Beach line leaves 4th Avenue. Other avenues just as wide have ventilation in the sidewalks.
Sometime in the 1960s or early 1970's they did a rebuild of Fourth Avenue which included turnouts, a median, new sidewalks etc. and I think the ventilation gratings were relocated to the newly-reconstructed median at that time. I am NOT sure of the exact date, only the general time-period. I DO remember that it caused quite a headache construction wise. It extended from Atlantic Avenue to the Gowanus Expressway, approx. 62nd Street.
wayne
Interesting this question comes up on marathon day. I happened to be watching the NYC marathon and noticed the center median ventilation grates on 4th avenue.
As to why they were put (actually moved) there I guess when they reconstruced 4th ave back in the 60s and 70s they felt they would provide better ventilation in that spot.
The runners move fast though. Could they have beat a train leaving Pacific to Dekalb? Probably.
I think they made it to L.I.C. faster than the G train!
If anyone was wondering where I was the past few hours, I was in Montreal and I did get to ride the Metro there on Saturday.
After going up Mont Royal, I walked down Mont Royal Street and went to the Mont Royal Station. I got some pictures of
buses along the way. I took the orange line from Mont Royal to Berri-UQAM, changed for the green, and took that to McGill.
First impressions were good. I thought it was noiser than the DC Metro and I didn't like the fact there is no railfan window. On
the orange line, the sign announcing the next station was cool but ads about irrelevant things are annoying. The green line didn't
have this (I could tell the cars were older) and there were no announcements of any sort.
I walked back to where I was staying
for an hour or so, got some food, and got back on the Metro at Sherbrooke to go to a women's hockey game. I took the
orange line to Vendome. I saw most of the advertisements go by including something about our election on Tuesday but since I don't know French, I don't know what it said. I missed
the 37 bus by two minutes and waited about 30 for the next one. It was a low floor bus (my guess is that it was made my
Nova) and the destanation sign is still a flip dot sign making it impossible to read from a distance. In fact, all the buses have flip
dot signs! The back door is a pain to open since all the instructions are in French although my cousin explained it to me
beforehand. After two periods, we went outside and took the 36 to Place St. Henri which is a very nice station, architecturally.
I took the train to Lionel-Groux and transfered to the green line. This time, there were announcements made by the operator. I
got of at Places-de-Arts and took some bus up Avenida de Parc to where I stayed. This was an older bus and to open the rear
door, you merely stepped in the stairwell.
Questions/Comments:
Who made the subway cars? My guess is Bombardier.
Who decided on no railfan window?
Why aren't the subway cars linked in three car sets?
Does the Metro ever go above ground?
How old are the low floor buses?
Why no LEDs on the destanation signs?
The bus doors are a pain and slow everything down since it takes forever for them to open, even with the most experienced
commuter using them.
Trains are pretty quiet but louder than DC, quiter than NYC.
Pretty stations
I'll get my photos online ASAP.
Off topic: Olympic Stadium looks really ugly.
The only question of yours I can answer is that no, the Metro does not ever go above ground. My wife and I rode it this August for the first time since Expo '67. Hopefully Marty will see your post and respond; he is a Montréal native and (along with his wife) showed Mary and I around parts of the city one day this summer. I suspect that he can answer most of your other questions.
Where on du Parc did you stay? We were at the Renaissance Hotel du Parc - a very nice hotel, much nicer than the places we usually stay. (Chalk one up for the travel agent - wish they had done as well in Toronto and Québec City, although in fairness to them the only real problem with the place in QC was the hardness of the mattress.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can answer a few of your questions.
The cars are made by Bombardier in Quebec.
The buses are Novas. They range in age from 1997 to present.
I thought the cars were linked in three car sets (or elements). There are 9 car trains most of the time. I think the 5 line has six car trains off peak.
The big O was a big mistake. Part of the 1976 Olympic fiasco
The website Rail & Transports Urbains mentions Bombardier and Vickers (U.K.) in its section on the Montreal Metro. I can't read French well, but this may give you a start.
The older Metro cars were made by Vickers in, I belive, 1967.
The newer ones were built by Bombardier in the early 1970s; the year 1973 comes to mind, but I'm not exactly sure.
No rail fan window: That was the source of much fustration when I was younger and rode the Metro in Montreal when I visited my grandparents when they lived there. The lack of a railfan window can be directly attributed to the full width transverse cab found on those trains, which is something that the STCUM probably included in the car specifications when the first generation of equipment was designed in the 1960s.
The subway cars ARE linked into sets of three, in the following configuration:
Motor car -- Unpowered railer car -- Motor car
If I remember correctly, all Motor cars have the full width transverse cab (of course without the rail fan window).
The Metro doesn't go above ground because Quebec winters and the rubber tire traction configuration would not mix with Quebec winters (snow would jam up in all of the many rails and make trouble for the underside equipment on the trains).
The Olympic Stadium is not only ugly, but the roof has been a total disaster.
-Robert King
All of my Metro experience in Montreal was with the original 1960s rolling stock and no, there were no railfan windows. I did manage to get a view through the front by looking through the space between the cab door and bulkhead - it's only a crack, but that's all you need.
IIRC, Olympic Stadium was barely finished in time for the '76 summer games. Cost overruns pushed the final price tag to something like $755 million.
My tour guide when I was there Columbus Day weekend (incidentally, Canadian Thanksgiving as well) said they're still paying for the Montreal games. The roof does look terrible.
My tour guide when I was there Columbus Day weekend (incidentally, Canadian Thanksgiving as well) said they're still paying for the Montreal games. The roof does look terrible.
Unfortunately, I only got to ride the Metro one stop when I was there last month. I was with my wife and another non-railfan couple, who were driving, so I had to cajole them into taking even that short trip. My friend did comment on the rubber tires, though, and I resisted the temptation to expound on the subject. I found the short ride pleasant enough. I took the line under Rue de Ste. Catharine, I think, and it reminded me of WMATA because I could see the next station platforms down the track from the platform on which I stood, a la the view from Gallery Place's red line platform down to the red line platforms at Metro Center, that being a short distance too. I had a brief flash about what it must have been like to board the 1904 IRT, when the station agent provided us paper tickets after we paid our fares.
IIRC, Montreal incurred a debt approaching $1 billion in the aftermath of the '76 Olympics.
I do remember being able to see adjacent stations down the tunnel on the Green line.
There were no annoucements at all? When I was there, they had an automated female voice, the speakers sucked, so I couldn't make out any individual words, but then again, my French is extremly limted, so it wouln't have mattered. I thought that the trains were noisy, too. I always heard how rubber tires would give a quieter, smoother ride, but I only notced a smoother ride. Those tires just generate way too much friction. The railfan window thing sucks, not even a little hole for a sneak peek. The T/O's look bored on the Metro, It seemed like they just sat there with thier arms crossed waiting for their shift to be over.
One thing I like about the Metro is how you can see a lot of stuff in the tunnels. There are no columns in the middle, so you see get a clear view of how the tunnels were made and whats in them. I think it's a great system with impressive stations that are only second to MARTA.
Personally, I can't stand riding on trains with rubber wheels. When I was in Paris, their subway lines on rails operated MUCH smoother than their subway lines on rubber wheels. While sitting down, I was always bouncing up and down on the seat with those tire trains. Same with the women on board! :)
Maybe Montreal's system is much smoother than Paris'. I haven't been to Montreal since 1980 and I've forgotten almost everything about my visit. I do however plan on going back there soon.
I meant on the green line when I went from Berri-UQAM to McGill the first time I rode. All the orange line trains had automated announcements and the second green line train had the T/O doing them.
Well, it certainly looks like her in a NJ Transit ad in Saturday's Jersey Journal. Clad in bellbottom pinstripe pantsuit complete with traditional conductor's cap (even has a metal plate) and stopwatch with fob, the only out of place item (I'm not making this up) are the
foot-high spike heels!
My real reason for the post is to elaborate on the ad's caption: "Check out the new fall line at the mall." Yes, service will be extended to Newport November 18. There's an interesting service pattern depicted. Trains from 34th St are merely going one additional stop north, to Harborside. Only the West Side Av trains will make the additional two stops to Harsimus Cove and Newport. Thought you potential riders coming from the south should be alerted.
There is a 3/4 page ad in The Sunday News from New York City Transit. The theme is "The World Series Is Over...Our Transit System Goes On". "Join Our Winning Team". They are advertising for Car Inspectors, Transit Electrical Helpers and Bus Maintainers.
There are immediate openings for car inspectors with a salary of $22.2075 per hour.
There ad is very attractive!
The electrical helper filing deadline was just extended by DCAS because they did not have enough respondants.
I'm visiting Toronto tomorrow, can anyone make reccomendations on lines to tour on?
Dave,
Toronto's subway lines are the backbone of the fleet, but I believe the streetcars are the most interesting part.
The Spadina route is not to be missed.
Also, if you can be at the corner of Queen and Roncesvalles between 2:30 and 3, you will see all the cars coming out of the carhouse for afternoon rush on the best streetcar corner in North America (IMHO).
A trip up to St. Clair West station is also worthwhile. The subway ride is interesting and the underground streetcar/bus loop at the station provides non-stop action.
If you have not doneso before, take a trip on the Bloor/Danforth subway to Broadview stn so you can see the Don Valley.
Make sure you go up to the observation deck of the CN Tower during rush hour to watch all the commuter line trains enter & exit the main station from 147 stories up!!!
Too late now I suppose but read over our Toronto streetcars guide:
Toronto Streetcars
-Dave
Anyone ever see this short art film about the subway? Caught the tail end on PBS. Here's a link to download the quicktime. Be warned, it's over 6mb.
http://researchnet.vprc.asu.edu/isa/Pages/CE/ce/visu/arc/token.html
Here are some more pictures, courtesy of an anonymous donor, that were taken at the site of the recent Number 4 crash...More to come!
CLICK HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
These are great pictures. Please express our appreciation to your anonymous donor for making them available to us.
--Mark
I am sure you just have. I do not even know who it is...really.
Peace,
ANDEE
I just had a thought on the cause of the accident. Has anyone considered the the brakes on the cars behind 1369 failed? It's happened before on class 1's, where a brake hose broke, but wound up bending in such a way that the air pressure remained in the line. When the engineer tried to slow the train, it didn't; they had to blow the air from the Caboose. Considering the damage to 1369, it seems possible that the cars behind it had not engaged their brakes, while thos in front of it had slowed.
-Hank
It's highly unlikely on a SMEE train. For this to happen
both the straight air, emergency and electric emergency
would all have to fail.
Without the air, on a hill, dynamics can't possibly hope to stop or slow the train sufficiently to prevent a collision. I recall a posting on how the brakes work on a subway train, but not the details. Perhaps the transit professional can shed some light.
-Hank
11/06/2000
Great additional photos.
Now, same location, conditions but one difference.
Equipment, how would this accident differ if Low-V's or Redbirds were involved instead of R-62's ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Any car from R12 up to R36 probably would have fared better in this crash. Lo-V's: Flivvers were flimsy; I think the Steinways and the WF Lo-V would have held up better, especially the WFs, which were almost like the R12. I think the R62's floors offer little or no resistance to side or lateral impact; look how #1437 split in two and #1440 was almost cut in half. #8884 - sure it was dented badly but it didn't break in two.
wayne
OUCH! What a mash! Car #1369 has joined her mates #1437 and #1440 that's for sure.
wayne
DAMN !! Instead of fixing the MVM's programming to stop the rip-offs they took away the trade-in option.
Since I get my Metrocard as part of my commutation ticket, my main source of special edition cards is gone!!!
I hope they reinstate it soon !!!
Rip-offs? What rip-offs?
On another note, a couple of years ago, I used the trade-in option on the MVMs while I was using my student MC to get around. I found MC's on the floor that had value still on them, usually 50˘ or $1.00 or something like that. I used the trade-in option and was able to increase the value of my pay-per-ride MC to $90.00 (not a typo)! Without the trade-in option on the MVMs, this wouldn't be possible, and my wallet would be full of MCs that have 50˘ or $1.00 or some other weird amount on them.
Rip-offs? What rip-offs?
Kids found out how to manupulate the machines to increase the value without paying for them, so that the MTA took the option away.
See the following
You can srill trade in your card! Just go to your friendly neighborhood Station Agent! We can still trade in cards when you come to the booth.
The station agent will just ask questions and call it a frivolous reason for trade ins.
With the number of times I've used that thing, I've never found even the slightest way of cheating the system, so it's not like the feature automatically allows cheating.
If they took it out temporarily while they work out the bug, fine. If they took it out permanently, their empty heads should roll.
FRIENDLY station agent??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
FRIENDLY station agent??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
That is certainly impolite!
I happen to know subway-buff, and if you say that to subway-buff's face, subway-buff will kick the crap out of you!
I will not kick him- in the face or anywhere. I appreciate the compliment but even though I disagree with him he has the right to his opinion. Please let's keep this out of flamage.
Subway buff, you are one of the few (AND I MEAN FEW) station agents that I have met who aren't totally miserable dregs of humanity. You and Tommy Crawford who used to be a shop steward.
11/06/2000
I guess somebody goofed when the MVM was developed to anticipate this kind of fleecing ! Do I detect some red faces ?
Bill "Newkirk"
No, programmers install backdoors whenever they design systems. Either for debugging, personal perks after their project is done, or a combination of the 2. Its like a cheat code for the real world. That's why my friend was able to get $120 worth of free stuff at Staples.com using seceret Coupon Codes. In the short run only the programmer or hi ranking staff will know the tricks, but it usually slips out and then you'll get a few weeks of "pillage while you can" before the MTA notices and catches on.
I have an idea that could improve service in south Brooklyn.
MORNING RUSH HOURS:
Q trains that stop on the A3 track at Brighton Beach would continue through Brigton Beach, make stops at Ocean Pkwy and West 8 Street, make a stop at Stillwell Avenue on track 1, then make all N stops from Stillwell Av to Kings Highway, then run express from Kings Highway to Pacific Street, go through the Montague Street tunnel, then up the Broadway Express to Queennsbridge. Transfers to the 6th Avenue Q are available at Pacific Street, DeKalb Avenue, and 34th Street.
EVENING RUSH HOURS:
Q trains that stop on the T1 track at 21 St-Queensbridge would run via the Broadway Express to Canal Street, then go via the Montegue Street tunnel, and Sea Beach Express to Kings Highway, then stop at Stillwell on Track 1, then proceed on the D line to Brighton Beach, making the stop at Ocean Parkway on the A4 track, then run normally uptown on 6th Avenue.
Might not happen since this plan makes too much sense for the MTA to comprehend.
You want 4 trains through the tunnel during rush hour then through the bottle neck at Dekalb.
Don't think that could happen.
What would you replace service with on the Brighton. The D is standing room only during rush now (at Kings HwY) you still have to move people that the Q moved.
You almost recreated the NX service that was canceled for low riddership (been there done that >G<).
I said the Q trains that stop on the A3 track at Brighton Beach would go the way I described. Q trains that stop on the A4 track would be unaffected. Same goes for the Queensbridge terminal.
[You almost recreated the NX service that was canceled for low ridership]
True, but the NX went nonstop from Stillwell to 59th Street. Having stops at 86 Street, Avenue U and Kings Hwy should boost ridership somewhat. When the south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge open up again, DeKalb would be less of a bottleneck, the Broadway Q trains would skip DeKalb entirely the way the B trains do it now. N trains would most likely take the bridge, too. So the grand total diuring rush hours would be:
Bridge North: 3 (B, D, and 6th Av. Q)
Bridge South: 2 (N and B'way Q)
Montague St Tunnel: 2 (M and R)
Less of a problem, eh?
No, it isn't less of aproblem, because you're cutting Manhattan-bound Q service, via Brighton, in half, and the line is already standing room only, as Lou From Brooklyn has pointed out.
Sea Beach Service could be improved simply by adding a few more trains.
--Mark
Even skipping Dekalb is still a bottle neck. Trains bound for the bridge no matter which side (your plan assumes that both sides are open?) would have trains leaving Dekalb holding near the old Myrtle Ave stop as they do now for B trains.
You still have four trains in the tunnel and the slow crawl between Whitehall and Canal and those curves running three trains instead of the two (that is why they are called "N"ever and "R"arely).
With the current B division fleet level and max train per hour over the bridge/tunnel not to meantion the reduction of Brighton service (your cutting Q 6-8 min headway to 12-16 min during rush), and how many would reverse commute?
Good try though
Eliminating the M and replacing it with additional N and R trains would be an easy way to improve BOTH lines.
Sorry R36, but your plan stinks worse than 3 week old milk.
Got the new NJT timetables at Penn yesterday, at least the ones they had- there were no Morris & Essex or Northeast Corridor, which actually run out of Penn, but loads of Main/Bergen, Pascack and Boonton. Anywho, I noticed a very bizarre schedule on the Boonton for King and Presidents Days.
Three trains leave Hoboken at approximately 4:05, 5:05 and 6:05 AM (don't hold me to those times- I don't have the timetable in front of me.) and run local via Boonton to Lake Hopatcong. After a fifteen-minute hangover, each train retraces its route to Hoboken. Unless there's some huge mall around Hopatcong that's opening early on those days, or track work on the Morristown line (which I couldn't check due to lack to timetables for that branch), there doesn't seem to be any logical reason for this. There's one weekday early AM train from Hoboken to Hackettstown via Morristown for the benefit of those who reverse commute to the office complex at Mount Olive.
In any event, Boonton is primarily a peak-direction branch with very limited contra-flow service between Hoboken and Great Notch. So what gives?
NJT's website doesn't even let you view an entire branch's schedule the way LIRR, MN and SEPTA's do. All you can do is plug in the two stations you want to travel between. I prefer to see the 'big picture'.
On a side note, new LIRR schedules start a week from today, but as of yesterday, Penn still has the previous timetables from August 14. At least the new skeds are on the website.
I got to witness a funny argument between an LIRR ticket agent and passenger who was hellbent on buying a ticket to Hauppauge. Despite heated assertions from the agent and other passengers that she would have to go to Smithtown or Central Islip, she KNEW there's a Hauppauge station- she'd taken the train there many times before!
You have to see MetroNorth's new New Haven time table (went into effect Oct 29th I think). They have "Shopper Specials" listed in it in yellow. It is confusing as ususal with the "Will Operate except Presidentday" and "Will Not Operate except President Day". They also state a special time table for Nov 22 and Dec 23 to be published seperately.
Can't wait for LIRR Nov 13th new timetable.
The trip began Friday, November 3, waiting to board Amtrak's Keystone Train #645 scheduled to depart New York's Penn Station at 1:10 pm. Over the PA, waiting passengers were told of a "power failure in the tunnel," which was causing delays on 3 trains: A Northeast Direct to Washington, a Metroliner to the same city, and my Keystone Train to Harrisburg. We were finally able to board after a delay of about ½ hour, with the PA announcer suggesting that those Northeast Direct passengers with tickets to Philadelphia use the Keystone train. Apparently, the Northeast Direct train to Washington was about to be canceled.
Down the escalator I went. Fortunately, I was able to find a seat on one of the new Acela coach-class cars. From what I could tell, the other cars were the old "Northeast Direct" variety, with the orange paneling and red/brown seats. Finally, at about 1:45pm, we were on our way. Just south of Metropark, our train began to slow severely until finally coming to an unscheduled stop. Much to my surprise, the conductor announced that we were having "engine problems" and that we wouldn't be able to "do more than 80" and that we would not be able to make up any time to 30th Street Station. So after sitting for 5 minutes or so, on we slowly chugged.
At 30th Street, I stepped outside the train, like I usually do, to watch the engine switch. I noticed they have repainted the platform level of the station. It's no longer that pea green and cream color. Rather, it has been Acela-fied to a blue-gray with navy trim. And the track and location signs have been replaced with similarly colored, sleek LED display signs, most of which were not yet operational. IMO, this is an improvement. More surprising, however, was the revelation that our consist had been powered with a brand new HHP locomotive, #656. (I expect #656 is now at Wilmington being serviced!) I also noticed that our Friday night train was 4 cars long, not the usual 3, and that the last car was a Metroliner coach. This occasionally happens on Keystone trains, and I kicked myself for not walking back at Penn to take advantage of a Metroliner seat for discounted coach-class fare. Maybe next time. I then made my way to the north side of the station to see what power we would have heading west. Awwww, it was a diesel. At least it was one of the new, sleak looking, streamlined ones. (Not a huge fan of diesel power, I hesitate to make an attempt at identification, but I think it was one of those "FHP-something-or-others.")
Back on the train, and we were on our way to 'the burg.' It was already dark, so sight-seeing was out of the question until we passed the red and blue runway lights of the Harrisburg International Airport. An Air Ontario turboprop took off just as we passed, and we raced together for a mile or so before the small plane beat us out and flew out of sight. I began to dream of the station that will be built there, wondering why it has taken so long for this idea to come to fruition. The tracks, after all, run right by. After this reverie, we arrived at the Harrisburg Transportation Center (formerly Harrisburg's Penn Station).
I'm off the train now, and I have some time to kill before my ride to the West Shore, so I decide to walk down and take a look at the GG-1. There it sat, on the track adjacent to the one on which I arrived, looking only a bit majestic, but mostly forlorn in its black-with-gold-pinstriping Art-Deco livery. This is the way it looked in 1938 on the inaugural run between Philadelphia and Harrisburg. I found myself wishing I had brought my camera, until I remembered that it was dark, and that I would have had to drag along a tripod in order to get the potentially great shot of the Amtrak loco that brought me sitting beside the 'G'. But this was a quick, weekend, backpack trip, so no camera.
I soon turned my attention to the westbound Three Rivers, which had pulled into the track across the platform, the only high platform at the station. There it sat, with its 2 Heritage Sleepers, a couple of coaches, and a zillion boxcars and road-railers. It made me happy to see many of the drawing rooms occupied, mostly with elderly travelers, I might add. After a few minutes, the Amtrak Freight was on its way to Pittsburgh, probably the last time it would be anywhere near on-schedule. I then turned my attention to 645, which was in the process of backing itself onto the Cumberland Valley Railroad Bridge wye to turn itself (probably into 616) for the return trip to 30th Street. I hung around till it backed through the station, then went up to meet my ride (Dad). As I waited, I stood to the south of the station at street level, where there is a good view down to the platform area beneath the train sheds. I watched 616 pull out, as well as a couple of NS freights, which run on tracks just past the Amtrak platforms.
Saturday morning. At about 8:30 am, Dad and I hop in the car for the trip to Rockhill Furnace. We're off to help with some track work. About 20 or so ties on the 2 tracks in front of Car Barn 1 have to be replaced. We arrive in time to see several of the guys surrounding our tie-nipper, spiking the rails into the ties. Dad and I soon begin to help ballast and tamp the new ties on the 1st of the 3 tracks being worked-on, the unpowered 'caboose track.' The track runs to the right of CB1, and is used to store 2 ex-PRR / Conrail cabooses, and which are used occasionally for sleeping when crews stay overnight. This ballast work was broken up by 2 or 3 trips to refill our ballast dumper. After about 5 hours, we were finished, having ballasted, tamped, and swept a total of about 30 feet of new track. We were ready to celebrate with a ride out to the end of the line on Johnstown Traction #311. This was followed by a short hike to the end of the ROW where it meets Rte. 522. The plan is to add another 1000 feet to the end of the line, which will still leave plenty of the Shade Gap Electric Railway yet untracked. (Sadly, the topography, with a steep rockface on one side and a creek on the other, leaves no room for a loop. All our cars that aren't double-ended must have front-poles added for this reason.) With one ballast dumper and one small Bobcat, this extra 1000 feet will take forever to track! There was much discussion of this, but also about how the ballast dumper is a great timesaver compared to the old method: buncha guys with shovels. Back we went to CB1, and dad and I were on our way back home. We had theatre tickets for that evening's performance at Theatre Harrisburg, located at the brand new Whitaker Center for the Arts, a jewel of the ongoing and unexpectedly successful revival of downtown.
Sunday. After resting my sore back and watching the Eagles eek out the win over the dreaded 'boys from Dallas, it was time for the return trip to NYP on Amtrak's 654. Surprise! The westbound Three Rivers was there again, this time with a Viewliner, a couple of coaches, and a zillion boxcars and roadrailers. After taking one last look at the 'G', I boarded my Acela coach class car (no Metroliner coach this time) and we headed on our way to 30th Street, still powered by a diesel. I noticed the roadrailer facility and its switcher loco just before we pulled onto the Main Line and picked up speed on our way to Middletown. Dark again, so sights were obscured, and an uneventful ride to Philly ensued, until...
Upon entering yard at 30th Street, imagine my delight as I caught a glimpse of the 2 Acela Express trainsets about 10 tracks away on our right. There sat the 2 locomotives, one missing its nosecone, with the coaches behind, all lit up and looking out-of-place in the 20th Century trainyard. A better end to a fantrip weekend could not be had, so after watching them switch to the AEM7 power (in front of several coaches being deadheaded to Sunnyside for servicing) I settled in for the trip back to Penn Station.
Nice trip report, Acela's nosecone has to me removed for it to couple to conventional equipment. Matter of fact I saw one operating in Metro North New Haven territory southbound on the local track on my way up to Branford for trackwork 9am-ish Sunday.
Replaced about 20 ties but we don't have a machine. A crew removed the old tie and placed the new one, second crew tampped and spiked the rail to the tie and a third resecured the guard rail around the curve (that was removed a few days prior) all of this with normal operations on a 1/2 hour headway.
A great day to be in the CT woods (well it did get cold and rainy towards the end).
Spikeing was done with an air compressor and spike gun (almost a jack hammer type thing but I was on the tie crew).
Yeah, we put in some grueling tie-replacement work (Lou, Thurston, Stef and I) near the Quary Trestle curve of BERA. It was tough going at first, but we later "got into a groove" where Stef and Lou pulled and spotted the tie, and Thurston and I tamped and hammered them to the rails (both by hand and with the hydraulic-jack). It wasn't as fun as running a car down the line, but we all realize that it's necessary work so we can later enjoy the curve w/o worrying about the strain on the guard rail.
BTW, we saw the Acela heading toward NY at around 9:15 as we were heading eastbound on 95.
BMTman
Both EBT and the Rockhill museum are closed for the season, so we did not have to contend with operations. Besides, we were on the barn tracks, not the main line. The old ties had been dug out during the week and the new ties placed under the rails by arrangement with the Huntington State Correctional Facility -- a prisoner work program. (We have nothing but good things to report about these guys, BTW.) All we had to do was spike, ballast, tamp, and sweep. All the tie-nipper does is grab the tie with a pair of tongs hung from a small, crane-like structure, bracing itslef with 2 shoes on the rails. Then, a motor pulls the tie flush to the rail for spiking, leaving a couple of inches of space beneath the tie for tamping, later. It was specially designed for the job by one of the members. Then, holes are drilled in the ties and spikes set using a small mallet. Then, a jack-hammer-like spike-gun finishes the job, with power provided via our compressor on work-car 64 and rubber hoses. Next, our ballast dumper rolls in (also custom-designed). It has 3 small trap doors on the tailgate which, when opened, allow for speed-controlled distribution of the stones. Some pre-tamping is done with shovels, and then the compressed-air jackhammer-like tampers begin. Once the tamping ceases, the ballast is shoveled down to just below tie-level, and the ties and rails swept clean.
I can't wait to visit Branford. Rockhill's on a much smaller scale than there and Seashore, obviously, but it still need the same care! Sounds like it was a weekend for trackwork. Cheers, fellas!
We are not ballasted in the curve or for most of the line outside of the yard.
The tie crew just takes a pick and cuts around the tie, digs a small trench in on the side that the tie will be pulled out. Pull the old spikes, raise the track with track jacks and pull the tie. Clean out the old tie "hole" and pull in the new tie. We used four track jacks so we could move on to the next rotted tie and the spike guys could do what they wanted. It was intresting to learn this "age old" method of tie replacement.
In our case, the car-barn leads had several ties in succession which needed to be replaced. Also, they had previously been dirt-ballasted and we wanted to stone-ballast them. That's why 12-15 tie-lengths of track was dug out completely. I'm not sure how individual ties might be replaced, as this was my first time on track work. I too thought about the fact that I was performing an age-old rite of railroading.
On a side note, I forgot to mention in my original post that I caught a glimpse of the new cars (M-whatevers) southbound on the MFL el in North Philly. They looked nice and gleaming new from the view out my train window, and they still had those bumps on the top, but the "bumps" were wider than the ones on the old cars, like the ones in the movie "Rocky." Iguess these bumps are air conditioning units or something. Anyway, if I'm guessing right, these bumps are why they were called "Almond Joys"--cause in that commercial, the chocolate was poured over the almonds and made bumps on the top of the candy bar. Or am I way off?
>>>"Almond Joys"--cause in that commercial, the chocolate was poured over the almonds and made bumps on the top of the candy bar. Or am I way off? <<<
Nope, right on target.
Peace,
ANDEE
The new M-4 cars are "Mounds".
Yesterday, a woman and her fold-up shopping cart got onto the Manhattan-bound 'D' at Cortelyou.
You guessed it- off at Beverly! Considering all the hassle getting the cart up and down the stairs, wouldn't it be much easier just to PUSH it a block along East 16th Street?
Later, a large, rowdy group of teenaged Goths of indecipherable gender got on an uptown '2' (unfortunately rerouted local!) at 18th Street. It took awhile, because one held the door open for its friends for what seemed like several minutes.
All off at 23rd.
Several people I know will take the subway from Penn to PA.
About the woman getting on at Cortelyou to get off at Beverley: it is a sign that the subways, or the Brighton trains at least, are safe and nice to ride.
Or maybe she liked the R-68s.:-)
When my sister was a student at FIT, I'd come down from Connecticut and see her every few weeks. Cityana Gallery was doing brisk business at the time, and it would a three-train hop from there to her dorm on W. 27th St.: F to 42nd St. (two stops); change to the 7 to Times Square (1 stop); change to the 1 to 28th St. (2 stops). During one visit, I ended up taking a total of ten trains for a couple of stops at a time in the space of a few hours.
I like the R68s, too. I guess that means trouble for me with many other SubTalkers.
I don't hold that against you.:-)
I think I've made my feelings about the R-68s known, but I'm not going to beat that dead horse (water buffalo) any longer.
Who wouldn't?
running on...
Or it could be that Brighton riders are just lazy and dumb--you ever thought of that?
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
It seems like some people are really lazy if there only going to take the subway for just one measly stop. On the other hand if the distance between 2 stops is 3.6 miles which is the case between Howard Beach and Broad Channel on the "A" line then you're not being laz`y for taking the subway for just one stop.
BMTJeff
In that case, maybe it's because they don't want to SWIM!!!
Steve Hoskins:
Not only wouldn't you want to swim there. It is also marshland in that area some of that enviromentally sensitive.
BMTJeff
Now, now Fred, just because the number of Brighton riders is an order of magnitude higher than the number of Sea Beach riders there is no reason to be jealous.
--Harry
Oh no, Q, that's not right at all. The fact is we may have less riders but ours are energetic and alert. Remember, our riders are quality riders, and quality always beats quantity.
Well. I've seen people taking a local bus for one stop (2 blocks) .
Arti
Maybe they have arthritis.
What Bob says could be true. My personal favorites are the obviously healthy people who knock over 5 or 6 people to get a seat and THEN get off at the next stop. This type of behaviour is most frequently seen of the 6TH Ave IND, middays, between 34th and 42nd or 42nd and 47/50th and vice versa.
Peace,
ANDEE
There is a subway that goes from Penn Station to Pennsylvania???
PA = Port Authority (as in Bus Terminal....)
Only if you count the New York-Pittsburg Subway.
I wouldn't begrudge anyone taking the subway from Penn to the Port Authority. After dark, the stretch along 8th Avenue from 34th to 40th is not among Manhattan's safest.
Chuck
And maybe the person got on at 34th St., took the train to 42nd, and then transfered to the 7 or S or N/R. I'd get on the subway for one stop if I was transferring. 34th/42nd is a bad example. The Cortelyou/Beverley road example, well, that's probably just easier to walk.
As another example, when I used to live near Columbus Circle and was coming uptown from Penn Station and headed home, it made sense to wait on the uptown local platform. If a E came in, then I'd take it to 42nd and wait for either an A or a C up to 59th. That you can't easily transfer between the uptown local and express platforms at Penn on the A/C/E is rather annoying.
This all got me to thinking about one-stop rides for which nobody could accuse you of laziness. Broad Channel to Howard Beach is obviously one, as well as those where the alternative is swimming across the East River. Lex/63 to 57/6th (or 7th) is another.
Chuck
On SEPTA I would frequently change at City Hall from the MFL and get on a BSS express train that would terminate one stop later at Walnut/Locust so I could transfer to PATCO. I always felt a little odd being the only one getting on the express.
On SEPTA I would frequently change at City Hall from the MFL and get on a BSS express train that would terminate one stop later at Walnut/Locust so I could transfer to PATCO.
I've done that, too, but only if I hadn't ridden the BSS for a while.
If you try to catch PATCO at 8th you'll never get a railfan friendly seat.
Depending on time of day, sometimes the T/O seat in the last car is available. The T/O side windows now have locks on them; I used to photograph through the open window to avoid color distortion before the window locks were installed.
BTW, great response to the off-topic vocabulary thread post. :)
Maybe....MAYBE, she got on the train and realize she'd left something back at the first staion and was going to try and go back and retrieve it.
I got on the D or B (I didn't care either way, but I'd notice an R-40!) from 34th to 42nd. I didn't have enough time to walk and I could make it on time if I took the chance to take the train.
I already had already started a fun pass, I didn't sit down.
Does anyone know why the LIRR stopped service beyond West Hempstead?
Was there service beyond West Hempstead on that line?(forgive my ignorance)
Yes, looped around to Country Life Press; this ended in the 1940s or 1950s. Tracks remained for non-revenue service to probably around 1960.
wayne
A former LIRR conductor once told me that he remembered one or two times when the tracks were used for reroutes of passenger trains in the very early 1960's.
Well, what happened was that New York City Grew in importance, while the need for local (Long Island) focused service gave way to the automobile.
If memory serves me right, the service in question would have run from Far Rockaway across the LIRR Rockaway branch on up to West Hempstead and thence on to the Oyster Bay line.
So I do not believe there is very much that is not being covered now, but that p[articular route did not seem to be worth running.
Elias
The West Hempstead to Mineola connector was closed at least as early as the 30's. It served no real purpose back then, although it would today. In anycase, I don't believe it ever connected to the Oyster Bay line.
Ironically, I believe an AAA office now sits over the ROW, and much of the ROW through Garden city is a paraking lot. I'm not sure if the LIRR still has rights to it though.
Looks like it to me,
and that is what I have heard.
Here is the map: http://www.lirrhistory.com/Images/1900LIRR.jpg
Elias
The cutoff at Mineola S/B to Country Life, then to either Hempstead, West Hempstead, or the Central Branch was just W/O the Nassau Tower and the Main Street Crossing. There was no crossing at grade over the Main Line tracks to the O.B. Line. For a train to go from West Hempstead to Oyster Bay it would have had to use the Main Line Tracks in Mineola as a wye!!!
By the way, I'm showing my age but I definitely remember the RR crossing over Hempstead Turnpike in West Hempstead. It was right next to the White Castle which was further West than it is today, next to Ihop. There were no crossing gates there, just a:
[There was no crossing at grade over the Main Line tracks to the O.B. Line. For a train to go from West Hempstead to Oyster Bay it would have had to use the Main Line Tracks in Mineola as a wye!!!]
Not true, Sarge. There was a direct connecting track between the West Hempstead and Oyster Bay lines. It was taken out in 1926. The platform for the Mineola Station prior to 1923 sat in the triangle formed by the Main Line and the westbound and northbound tracks from West Hempstead.
Wasn't there an "X" or Diamond crossover north of Country Life Press which would have meant through access from Hempstead to Mineola? If there was, when was it removed? I seem to remember a 90degree cross there plus all four switches, or at least three (the NW corner one I am not sure of; the other three for sure, the SW one is in use today)
These are from old maps my Mom & Dad had.
wayne
the ""hempstead station"" (lirr) is being rebuilt have you seen it ?
Not yet, Salaam. Don't have much occasion to go to Hempstead, but I might take a ride over there and see what's happening. They did the bus station over back about five years ago.
wayne
I sometimes pass it on the way to Rolling Thunder Cycles, (plug plug :) but not often. It's getting there, though. Looks nice.
Good choice, Phil. Rolling Thunder is probably the best on LI for Harley Servicing. I bring my bike there. They are alot more honest than any Harley dealer, especially Hempstead HD, just a few blocks N/O Rolling Thunder. And the owner, Gerard is very knowlegable in bike mechanics.
Heh. Ask him about me next time you're there >:)
I'm one of the more notorious regulars.
Bob (in the back) built the current 96 inch motor I've got, and he gets to tear into it again this winter (MORE POWER!!! >:)
I'm in most weekends. My '99 FXDWG is currently being painted, the bike's at home though....
Hempstead gets occasional vists by me, most recently for a run on the dyno there (85hp at the rear wheel). Not for service though...
Actually, with the expection of Hartford HD, I never let anyone else touch my bike, and Hartford only because they're close and decent enough to not blow everything up.
Rolling Thunder Cycles? Sounds like a description of the R-10s to me.:-) You sure could hear rolling thunder whether you were riding on them or watching them roar by.
The new bus terminal is well over 5 years old. It was built over 15 years ago.
I stayed at the best western hotel walking distance from there the hempstead station which is under re-construction adding new track, a new rebuilt station etc, it was my connection to nyc via the jamaca station atlantic station woodside for the # 7 .
Here is some details from this web page about the extension:
http://www.lirrhistory.com/minwhemp.html
I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Straphangers' Campaign. I assume many of you are, but for those who may not be, these are folks who do a pretty good job of collecting information, analyzing it, and then lobbying, jumping up and down, yelling, screaming and doing whatever else is necessary to hold MTA accountable for its actions.
They've got some good info on the Bond Act (both pro and con) - check out www.straphangers.org. Also, see www.bettertransit.org
I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Straphangers' Campaign. I assume many of you are, but for those who may not be, these are folks who do a pretty good job of collecting information, analyzing it, and then lobbying, jumping up and down, yelling, screaming and doing whatever else is necessary to hold MTA accountable for its actions.
Actually, I'd say that the Straphangers do a pretty good job of whining and moaning, while accomplishing nothing ...
The Straphangers blew a gasket when the MTA capital plan was approved, and for good reason. They lost, and so did we.
Since then, they have decided to support the bond act, bad as it is, because they are afraid that if it fails the politicians will use it as an excuse not to invest in transit.
They are wrong. If the bond act passes, and when the improvments are not forthcoming after 2004, it will forever destroy the credibility of those who propose such improvements.
Wasn't the TA's (or its predecessor's) credibility pretty much shot after they promised to replace the Third Avenue Elevated with the 2nd Avenue Subway 50+ years ago? Even if it's spelled out to the letter what the dough will be used for, I have serious reservations about whether what they say they'll do is what will be done. Also, you never know what economic downturns are just around the corner. I think we all can see that the "irrational exuberance" of the dot-com 90's is waning. These budget surpluses may disappear faster than we think.
heypaul sighted among campfollowers of biggie politicos entourage...
avid
I am planning to visit the CSX/NS kearney intermodal yard tomorrow via PATH and bike and I was wondering what the frequency of trains going in and out of that yard is. Is there any interesting part of the yard I should visit? Also, how can I get to the NYCH Greenville yard in Bayonne via HBLR and bike?
Thanks
Dan
Is that pronounced Key-er-ney are Car-ney. In South Jersey we say Key-er-ney because of the ever popular Carneys Point, NJ (near Du Pont and the Twin Bridges) and we don't wish to confus the 2. However I have been corrected by self proclaimed "locals" who obviously don't know what they are talking about.
Here it is Car-ney
Are there T/Os whose sole job is to move revenue trains between yards or shops? Or, do regular T/Os get assigned for a certain period of time to do non revenue runs?
Those are not T/O's those a Hostlers (or however you spell it). In the railroad indusry those are the worst jobs and usually assigned to trainees or very Jr. men.
They're not always known as "Hostlers".
These jobs are not always the worst jobs.
These jobs don't always go to the trainees or junior men.
Some engine personnel prefer to do these sorts of assignments. I know of an Amtrak engineer with quite a lot of seniority, he's working this very sort of job in Los Angeles. Why? He likes the hours of the assignments, and he doesn't have to go on the road and deal with schedules, grade crossings, freights in the way, etc. I've known this guy for about 12 years now, and he's been a LOT happier since he has been on the afternoon "yard job". He does what, on a lot of roads, IS known as a "Hostler" job -- moving engines from the yard to the station, as well as passenger cars.
I also know another guy who was with Southern Pacific for about 20 years. He'd take a hostling job just so he could be home in his own bed every night. And he said it was a LOT less work than being out on the main handling heavy freights. (Once UP took over, he took retirement!!!) I'd visit the yard and have lunch with him on occasion, and most of the time, my friend and the other hostler job people there were sitting around in an air conditioned, somewhat quiet, room playing cards. (This was at a VERY busy yard area, too. They got their work done and relaxed the rest of their shifts. Hardly one of the "worst" jobs!)
I was thinking that it would be an easier job. You don't have to deal with annoying passengers and all that other mess. Every job I had where I didn't work directly with the customer was a helluva lot better and easier.
In the railroad industry they may be the worst jobs but in the TA they are coveted jobs.
Right, cause you don't have to be bothered with the public.
In a lot of railroads, you start off in the assistant engineer or hostler titles because you have to be promoted to engineer before you can handle the mainline with a train. It all depends on the C.B.A.
Wouldn't that also be known as a Miscellenous T/O? I've seen the logo and wording on the jacket of a NYCT T/O recently.
BMTman
A train operator who works within a single yard is called a switchman. The switchman works the yard as well as the barn. The switchman does not work in passenger(road) service.
The shops(called Main shop) are located in 207 St. Yard and Coney Island Yard(both yards have a barn and a shop) and perform major work that a regular barn cannot handle. They work on all cars coming from all divisions. The main shop jobs are restricted to T/O's who are miscellaneous qualified(work trains).
Train operators who move equipment from one yard to a different yard are normally assigned off the "miscellaneous transfer" list. Misc.Transfer men normally only do transfers but can also perform other work. They are work train qualified(hence the word miscellaneous) but anyone who is not work train qualified can perform a transfer as long as it's a revenue train(i.e. R32,R38,etc.) and as long as the train has no speed restrictions or any other restrictions attached to it. Speed restriction meaning that the consist can only attain a maximum speed at a reduced level(i.e.20 mph maximum).
A T/O who wishes to pick miscellaneous(transfer or work train extra) has to have at least 2 years in title minimum to pick an available slot. T/O's with less time usually do not get the slots as they are all taken by the time they pick a job. When a junior man picks misc., he usually has Tuesday/Wednesday off for the entire pick. To get part of the weekend off(Fri/Sat or Sun/Mon), you need at least 10 years in title on the PM or Midnight shift. 15 years on the AM shift.
A T/O who is assigned a job as a switchman(either station switching or yard) or on a work train on that day will not perform road duties.
The large majority of road T/O jobs perform no yard switching duties.However, some road train operator jobs also perform yard switching duties as well as passenger service duties within the same day but there are very few of them available. The majority of these jobs are on the M line and come out of Coney Island Yard(only the T/O's that start on the CI end and not the Met.Av.end). They do one round trip on the M and then perform yard duties after their trip is completed. There are also special jobs called V jobs. The B,D,E,F,J,M,N,Q and R lines have assigned V jobs available. These jobs also make one round trip on average and then either work the yard or perform station switching duties. A station switchman's job is 90% relaying trains(Continental Av,205 St are two such locations where sta.sw'man relay trains) and 10% laying up or putting in trains(usually one or two a day total).
All station switching and yard switching jobs and the majority of miscellaneous transfer jobs are high seniority positions. Work train jobs are available to most T/O's but most of the better assignments go to the senior men and the junior men get the crappy jobs.
Thanks, that answers my question perfectly.
You ought to come check out the IRT Misc Extra list on the PMs. There are anumber of people who just barely have a year in a title with these jobs (with T/W off - can't argue that). This pick I'm working Midnights ( 4 at VC, 1 at White Plains) and on Thurs and Fri, I do one trip, a put-in from the yard, lunch, and two more trips.
I say that the M-7's should look like the R46's
Does anybody know what was the "MM" route was going to be plan back during the pre-Chrystie St connection, when it was never planed?
Could someone give me the exact plan what line was it going to run?
Peanut or plain?
CRISPY! and NO GREEN ONES.
LOL
wayne :o>
The MM was suppose to operate between Metropolitan Avenue and 57 street 6 avenue. As a matter of fact, some morning KK/K train did this for years [even though it wasnt on the strip maps]
I have a photo of a train layed up somewhere in Brooklyn and the rool sign on the front says MM in green with a white circle around the MM.
As for morons like jdl, all you need to know is he/she/it is a coward that refuses to put a link to his email box. He/she/it refuses to allow anyone to reply to him directly regarding his foolish replies to peoples postings.
How are we doing with another handle Adam?
To add to what correct information that kamehame777 has given:
The "MM" route was supposed to be a NON-RUSH-HOUR/Midday route, similar to what the "EE" was at the time (the "EE" DID run during rush hours); between Metropolitan Avenue and 57th St-6th Avenue. It was to be a Mon-Fri Midday service, with the "KK" and "M" as its rush-hour complements. In other words, it would have combined the "M" and "KK" services and operated between the other two services. The signs were GREEN, like the "CC", "GG" and "RR" and appeared on the front & side curtains on R16 cars, on the front curtains on R32 and R38 cars AND on front and oilcloth signs on the R-7a and R-9 cars assigned to the Eastern Division. The "MM" curtain sign did NOT appear in the R42 cars delivered in 1969 and 1970.
wayne
This Friday, "Veterans' Day Observed" is one of those rare days where many people have the day off, but the system is running on a weekday schedule (though as Subway-Buff pointed out, the trains may be, but not all support functions do). An excellent opportunity to ride weekday routes for those of us who usually can't come to the city on weekdays. Your reporter will be working live from the WCBS Weather Center in Manhattan 5-10am and 4-7pm.
During my midday break, I will get as much use out of my FunPass as possible. I hope to see many of you at the STORMFAN WINDOW. If today's weather maps are right, we'll wish there were windshield wipers on it!
Hey! Long time no post! Welcome back! Where'd the traffic sign go?
running on...
I posted just a few days ago in response to a question about the Boston T.
The transit & weather together graphic is alive and well, but out-of-service for a 15-day test :-)
Hah, I'm not off. I'm not off Today Tuesday when the rest of the city offices are closed.
The Teachers gave back today so I get it as a "floating" holiday for use at my mangament call (the kids are off but teachers are in training).
Friday I have to work, the rules governing holdiays at the Board state if the holiday falls on a Satruday we lose it. We didn't get July 4th off two years ago becasuse of this.
So Todd, ,I'll have WCBS on in the office 8:30 - 10, hope to hear from you.
Now I'll get off my soap box.
Will be nice to know the face behind the friendly voice Friday. I hope your Fun Pass brings you plunty of that !
Mr t__:^)
Add 6336-40 to the list. The Linden Yard Transfer just passed Jackson Av 5 mins ago on the way north to East 180th Street Yard. N1 and N2 as always pulling the consist, with Loco 73 on the end. Loco 73 has some important significance because it once pulled another familiar group of cars, the R-110A, 8006-8010. That was 8 years ago....
-Stef
As I was watching this new hit show, I wondered if any of the filming was actually done in Boston. My guess now is no, since when showing a "Boston neighborhood" scene, an LIRR train went by! Even a non-transit fan that I watched the show with noticed this blunder! -Nick
I noticed the mistake, too. Why do they have a TV show called Boston Public when you're showing a scene from New York? If it were me selecting scenes for the show, I'd use a Red Line train (You know, where the train is going over the bridge?) I'm not from Boston, and I've never been there, but I think I know that the lines have cars on the same line have the same color band running down the sides of the cars.
If it were me selecting scenes for the show, I'd use a Red Line train (You know, where the train is going over the bridge?)
Remember the series 'Spencer for Hire'? It was based in Boston and it had Red line cars on the bridge !!
But "Spencer for Hire" was filmed ON LOCATION in Boston. You can recognize street scenes clearly (it was one of my favorite PI shows). Are you sure that "Boston Public" is even shot in Boston? Could be one of those LA jobs pretending to be the locale in question.
BMTman
True !!
I watched it for the first time last night. They use Boston skyline scenes from "The Practice".
I'm sure it is not filmed on location, but that is no excuse. If you are going to do a show about Boston and want to show some trains, show "T" related material. Otherwise, simply keep transit out of it. -Nick
The average person watching the show doesn't give a good goddamn.
-Hank
I take the movie shoots with all the mistakes; it gives US folks that much more to talk about.
Joe C.
Agreed. However, if a show such as "Boston Public" is going to do a segment BASED around something happenning in the subway system then they owe it to the viewers to do "their homework" and get things as accurate as possible.
On the other hand, if there's a quick shot of a train going by used as a segway to another scene -- who cares (which sounds like what was done in this case).
BMTman
Will you ever forget Hawk's (Avery Brooks) pronunciation in his ominous voice of Spenser's name?
Hawk's opening line always seemed to be S P E N - S A H!
It was enough to give you chills!
I think the whole show, including the interiors was filmed entirely in Boston and its surburbs. It was a great show, too bad it did not get better ratings.
Yeah, I had almost forgot that Avery Brooks had his own spin-off show "Hawk" that was equally as good as "Spencer". Most people just think of Brooks as Cmdr. Sisko from "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine".
Funny thing: I had a close encounter with Avery Brooks once in Manhattan (this was around 1988). I was in a card store on Park Avenue (near 19th Street) and he was standing right in front of me on the cashier's line! As he exited the store, the cashier had an inkling that she thought the man who had just left was an actor, so I told her that her hunch was right!
BMTman
Yeah, I had almost forgot that Avery Brooks had his own spin-off show "Hawk" that was equally as good as "Spencer". Most people just think of Brooks as Cmdr. Sisko from "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine"
A friend right here in town has every Spenser show on tape, He says there were about 60 of them. I have been tempted to borrow them and try to watch them all again. Although Boston transit is shown in a number of shows, I don't believe that Hawk or Spenser are ever shown on a train.
CHEERS also used a stock transitional shot between scenes of the Red Line crossing the bridge over the river and Storrow Drive. When I was in Boston in 1988, I went nuts trying to find that location.
SAINT ELSEWHERE used a project by the defunct Washington el (before the Orange Line was put in a trench with MBTA and Amtrak) to masquerade as the hospital. The el must have been torn down around 1987, because columnists in the Globe were still decrying how the largely minority neighborhoods along its path were left without decent service.
They probably couldn't find housing for the cast and crew in Boston.
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Car number 9373. Train was westbound. Did anyone recognize the area where the filming took place?
It's called 'Stock Footage' and likely saved the production company 10K.
-Hank
Just like Stigmata (Sp?) used footage from Money Train for the head end shot and the red birds entering the station.
Just like Stigmata (Sp?) used footage from Money Train for the head end shot and the red birds entering the station.
Not to mention the fact that Stigmata, with its lengthy subway scene, was set in subway-less Pittsburgh.
Not to mention the fact that Stigmata, with its lengthy subway scene, was set in subway-less Pittsburgh.
The last time I was in Pittsburgh (several years ago), Pittsburgh had a subway with light rail cars running in it.
If people can base shows in NYC and use Chicago or Toronto transit clips, I guess this is only fair!
After having deliberated for several months on this important issue and having read virtually every SubTalk posting on the matter, I have decided to vote NO on the Transportation Bond Issue. As dearly as I want the Second Avenue Subway and the LIRR connection to GCT, the new subway cars, et alia, my firm decision is that a bond issue is not the way to accomplish these goals. We voters can continue to pressure the authorities to begin funding these projects as ordinary measures, not extraordinary ones. Let's see how many share this opinion tomorrow. The breakout of the stats on the vote in MTA-taxed counties should be available before week's end, and that could prove to be most interesting. Thanks to all of you who took the time to post on this substantial matter.
For the first time in over 20 years of teaching my mother is beinf forced to attend the lamo NJEA Teacher's Concention at the new Atlantic City Convention Centre. Because the Centre is built adjacent to the Atlantic City passenger station NJT is running special Teachers Express trains, which my mom intends to use. She it not a railfan, but I have instructed her to note how often the train is delayed in a passing siding to wait for the oncomming train and to try and judge the maximum speed of the train. I will report back to all of you w/ the results of my experiment.
I had the opportunity, and just finished reading the book "Brooklyn's Waterfront Railways" by Jay Bendersky. A relatively short (64 pages) soft cover book, it tells the story, mainly in pictures, of railcar handling and carfloat operations along Brooklyn's waterfront. I was surprised to see that the book has been out awhile (published in 1988). I spent a number of years in Brooklyn, but knew very little about this subject. I learned a lot from this book, and wonder if many other SubTalkers are familiar with it. I also noticed that SubTalk's own Bill Newkirk took a number of the pictures that are published in it.
If you haven't read it, I think you will find it a very interesting book.
I've read that book and it is quite interesting. I have some current photos from the New York Cross Harbor RR at nyrail.cjb.net, but none of the oled systems like NY Dock Railways or Brooklyn East District Terminal.
Dan
Yeah, Karl, I'm quite familiar with the Bush Terminal area of Brooklyn. Even though the book was written awhile ago, much of the street trackage is still there (some sections have been abandoned since the publishing of "Brooklyn's Waterfront Railways").
The Transit Museum featured two walking tours of just about everything featured in the Jay Bendersky book. One was in June, and the other was held just last month. The South Brooklyn Interchange yard @ 39th Street and 2nd Avenue was the main feature at the beginning of the trip. The tour then went down 2nd to 41st Street (to view the trackage turning under the Bush Terminal Building), then processed along 1st Avenue (to visit New York Cross Harbor RR ops) and finishing in the Brooklyn Army Terminal facilities.
If there is enough SubTalk interest, I would be happy to conduct one of the tours before it gets too cold.
BMTman
If there is enough SubTalk interest
I bet there is.
Bob
I must agree, the transit musuem had an excellent tour guide on both those tours even if the Subtalk tour could get 25% of what was shown on the Musuem tour would be excellent.
I forget who gave the tour, it is in the musuem's news letter, he was a Transportation Expert if ya ask me.
LOL
Sign me up, ol' buddy!!!
-Stef
I've been to all the Brooklyn Terminal areas SBK interchange yard to 63rd St. Yard by myself, but I would like to take a tour and learn more.
Dan
Dan, I will be posting information here in a couple of days regarding a tour of the Bush Terminal area.
BMTman
...regarding a tour of the Bush Terminal area.
Hey Doug,
Let's cut out these off-topic political posts. :)
Bob
Good one, Bob! LOL
Make sure you tell Dave Pirman to post it to coming events unlike other past field trips that PEOPLE did here lately.
BTW, those on the SI trip please send me your scanned photos so Lou or I can do a write up for this site.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston -- thanks for the wake-up call on the Staten Island trip.
Unfortunately, you will have to settle for a disc of the images as I am unable to send attachments as of late.
Doug
Doug, If I was twenty years younger and 200 miles closer I would be the first to sign up. I guess I will have to be satisfied with reading the posts afterward if they appear on SubTalk.
Do you happen to know the story behind the dedication in the book? It must be a rather sad one!
11/07/2000
[Do you happen to know the story behind the dedication in the book? It must be a rather sad one!]
Yes Karl, very sad indeed. Jay is a good friend of mine and he told me of his closeness with his then girlfriend Rosemarie.
Rosemarie and her family perished in a house fire some years ago. She tagged along for some photography excursions for some photos that would end up in his book. So he felt it was best to dedicate the book to her memory. I know how he feels, since I too lost a fiance in a car accident. Time goes on, but you never forget.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for the explanation Bill!
Death seems to be so much harder to accept when the person is young and just starting out in life. It has been forty years and I still think of my college roommate and best friend.
A work train came by just a couple of minutes ago with a peculiar item(s) to be found on a flat car. MVM's are taking trips to their new homes along the White Plains and Dyre Av Lines. Some crews were working this evening at my home station and were apparently getting ready for the MVM's arrival. As it turns out, workers made a cut through the steel wall separating the platform from the steps that take us up from street level, the MVM will come off the flat car and get unloaded on the platform. It will then be brought through the wall and brought in by the station's entry way. MVMs should be in during the course of the week along the 2 and 5.
-Stef
Sorry Stef, all you're in for is about 4 weeks of looking at non-working MVM's with paper "TESTING" signs covering their touch screens. But hang in there you'll have them eventually.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know. That same work train that went north came south, and dropped a vending machine at Jackson Av, and went on it's way. So as I head to work this morning, I should see a non-functioning MVM.
-Stef
I took over four weeks at Queens Plaza from when the MVM got there, the new METRO MAIDENS were installed too.
Oh and the electical conduit was installed 2 months before the MVM's even showed up.
Yea, that's the typical time frame.
Peace,
ANDEE
After I saw a group manhandling a MVM down the stairs at Columbus Circle in a mfg. newsletter I e-mailed one of the "suits" at the NYC mfg. office with the suggestion that they consider using the subways to deliver the MVMs.
I got a polite reply thanking me for my suggestion, but explaining that it wouldn't work for many stations AND the TA was not in favor of it. Maybe they are thinking of it again.
Mr t__:^)
I have seen them delivering MVMs several different ways:
I have seen a lift truck from the street, using wooden ramps and sliding them down the stairs from the street (yes- they had police blocking the stairs) and by train (such as 33,40, 46 on the 7)
Passing by on the F train today, I noticed that the new 63rd St connector signals were turned on. That includes the Queens Blvd line between Queens Plaza and 36 St.
Man are these signals bright! They blind you as you pass them. Especially the yellows.
One thing is for sure, leaving 36 St going downhill into the connector, there is going to be a timer. The first signal is yellow which is a dead giveaway.
Before you know it, the connector will be in full use.
And NO follo, I don't know when it will go into service.
>>>Man are these signals bright! <<<
Don't worry steel dust will eventually fix that.......Did you notice if the signals are LED's?
Peace,
ANDEE
No they are not LED's, just very powerful bulbs. The TA ordered a couple years ago that all new signal aspects operate at full brightness.
Probably those compact flourescents inside the lenses.
They are QUITE bright.
wayne
11/07/2000
[Probably those compact flourescents inside the lenses.
They are QUITE bright.]
I don't think they are compact flourescents. First of all they probably wouldn't fit in the signal housing and they don't always light up instantly. Compact flourescents seem to do better when they burn 24/7. Perhaps higher wattage incandescent bulbs and mirror reflectors brightened things up.
Bill "Newkirk"
What about those signals at the Jay Street / Borough Hall station in Brooklyn? What kind of bulbs do they use? They look different from most other signals, yet they don't look like LED's.
- Lyle Goldman
No, not flourescents. Either the TA has upped the wattage and
started using elevated bulbs (40 W) in the subway (which usually
takes an 18), or they've started using those prefocused reflectorized
high-efficiency bulbs.
I would think that it would be prudent to have a timer going down the grade and into the curve leading to 41st Avenue. A 20MPH speed restriction should be adequate. Is there a timer Manhattan bound approaching 23rd-Ely? If there is it doesn't show - trains seem to whip around that curve.
wayne
There is no timer in the 23-Ely area however there is a posted 20 mph speed limit going southbound. Most T/O's ignore the post but if there is a system safety TSS with a radar gun in the Ely station, he/she is dead meat.
I agree. Those system safety TSS's are out for blood!
I'm surprised there are no WD signals to protect the turnout
move to go down into the Y track.
I was on the E today and those new signals are bright! They must be using LED's in them!
No LED's in those signals, the signals are operating at 100% power.
Does anyone know what is going on on the Canarsie line lately? T/O say it's track work. The L line has been terminating at Myrtle Avenue for the last couple of weekends. Is this related to some kind of construction at B'way-ENY? Perhaps installation of New Signal Technology equipment?
I've also noticed an increasing population of New Signal Technology vehicles in the area and have noticed there is a New Signal Technology office on the 8th Avenue line at 34th Street.
Does anyone have any information regarding New Signal Technology, such as what system will NYCT be implementing? There are notes on the MTA website that say that pilot testing is already underway on the Canarsie line.
Thanks.
The reason for the L line track work is:
1) Installation of new signal technology for the implementation of ATO.
2)Extensive station renovation work being performed at Broadway Junction.
What's going on around Wilson Avenue? Fixing the trackbed, and perhaps waterproofing as well...the city bound Wilson Avenue station needs a little WORK!
wayne
Yes and No. The work being done to stations between Myrtle and B'way Junction are SUPPOSED to be station rehab work (at least that's what the NYCT is telling the public). I'm sure during this GO along that route the NYCT will take the opportunity to redo the signalling in anticipation of the eventual upgrade of the Canarise line for CBTC Ops.
And at Broadway Junction the L line's station is being rehabed in small sections so that service remains in place while the work is completed (last month, the northbound train's doors only opened in the last four cars; then two weeks ago, it was the first four cars only). Also, observant railfans will note that the third rail has been re-aligned on the right-hand side of the southbound tracks (P1). This was done last month. This is likely related to the coming CBTC, or could have been done for safety reasons since southbound trains are now opening doors on the LEFT side (island platform) as work has commenced on the outside platform.
I'll post any new developments as they occur.
BMTman
There's also supposed to be a new double crossover installed just north of Bway Junction on the L. Has that started yet? That could explain the L terminating at Myrtle ....
--Mark
Not yet.
That double crossover may be a sign of things to come, relating to the Atlantic Av reconstruction.
-Stef
On THAT grade - a crossover? How in the heck are they going to do THAT on such a ramp?
wayne
BMTman, with regards to trains opening up on the island platform, I heard that it will soon be that way permanently and that they will close off the side platform. Can you confirm this?
BMT Road Dogg. Thanks for your message.
I will try and get "the dirt" on that topic. However, I have a gut feeling that indeed the right-most platform will be eliminated. One of the things adding to that is the fact that the third rail was moved over -- in a permanent way -- to the right-hand side of the track. NYCT regulations state that the third rail MUST be on the far side of any platforms for customer safety reasons (Thus the island becomes the new southbound platform.)
BMTman
The G.O. bulletin produced by stations states that the G.O. will be temporary.
before you flame me, I work for Stations and the tracks are RTO. As we discovered for service on 11/10/2000, stations and RTO are not always working hand-in-hand.
Renvations are proceeding on Lorimer, Chauncey and Gates on the J. New platform edges are in place at Lorimer. They are being installed at Chauncey and yet to come at Gates. They are rebuilding the plats at all 3 Queens Bound. (Manhattan bound to be done when Queens bound reopens.) The other stations will be done next year.
I work on the J 1 day a week and use the line 2 days a week.
"As we discovered for service on 11/10/2000, stations and
RTO are not always working hand-in-hand. "
?????
on 11/10/00 Stations operated on a Sunday Schedule(and some booths that are closed on Sunday were closed on 11/10/00) while RTO ran a regular weekday schedule.
/*NYCT regulations state that the third rail MUST be on the far side of any platforms for customer safety reasons (Thus the island becomes the new southbound platform.) */
Oh, there's GOT to be at least a few places where the third rail is under the platform...
>>>Oh, there's GOT to be at least a few places where the third rail is under the platform... <<<
Such as any express stop on a three track line, E177/Parkchester, Tremont(4),Burnside(B,D), Fordham(B,D), 145th St IND (lower level) and 149th St/GC(4), to name just a few.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, and also Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the A/C. There are plenty of examples where for obvious reasons the third rail rule cannot be applied.
BMTman
Mytle Av - Broadway on the J/M/Z :)
>>>Oh, there's GOT to be at least a few places where the third rail is under the platform... <<<
Such as any express stop on a three track line, E177/Parkchester, Tremont(B,D),Burnside(4), Fordham(B,D), 145th St IND (lower level) and 149th St/GC(4), to name just a few.
Peace,
ANDEE
Name one where the third rail is under the platform on a non island platform.
I haven't noticed any, where?
Peace,
ANDEE
Name one where the third rail is under the platform on a non island platform.
Astor Place.
Come to think of it, I'm only positive about the uptown side, I can't recall which side the third rail is on on the downtown side.
Mark
Ok, I've got an interesting question. I've noticed on the LIRR, MN, etc, the third rail is sometimes switched to the outside of a curve (MN's harlem line is really heavy into this). Is there any reason for that?
Maybe due to the length of the M-1/4 types would cause some of the underbody equipment to touch the third rail??? (I'm only guessing as I doubt anything would hang low enough to make contact).
BMTman
South Ferry.
-Hank
This regulation does not exist in Pennsylvania because more often than not the 3rd is on the platform side. Having the 3rd on the platform side benifits track workers who are on the tracks much more often than customers.
But the Market-Frankfort line uses underrunning third rail, right? I remember riding the MFL for the first time last summer and being somewhat startled to not see a third rail opposite the platform at the 30th Street station. After craning my neck way over the platform edge, I finally found it tucked way underneath the platform edge. Looks like it would be almost impossible for somebody to land on it if they fell off the platform. Is it just me, or is the MFL's third rail unusually far away from the running rails? And what about the Broad Street Subway? I only rode that line once, and didn't have a chance to check out the third rail there.
NYC's subways use a cover on the third rail, so having the third rail on the platform side would seem to be somewhat less of a safety issue than in, say, Boston or Chicago where there is no cover.
In Boston, Park Street station on the Red Line has uncovered third rail under two of the platforms, as well as along the third track of the northern branch of the Orange Line.
In Chicago, the only spots that come to mind with (again, uncovered) third rail under a platform edge would be the center track at the O'Hare terminal of the Blue Line, and the now-defunct eastern platform at Wilson on the Red Line.
It would be bad enough for a customer to fall off the platform, but to fall off the platform and land on the third rail would be a disaster.
Any thoughts?
-- David
Chicago, IL
The MFL 3rd rail is a standard distance away, the differance is that despite a 5'2" guage the MFL cars are very narrow and don't overhang the track much. The result is that the platform is over the 3rd rail. Someone said they were built to the dimentions on the Paris Metro or the IRT. The BSS uses wide body IND type cars and the 3rd rail is b/t the rails and the platform edge. The BSS uses a typical wooden cover and I have seen track cleaners stand on the cover and bounce up and down on it atesting to its stregnth.
Sure! Any 3-track express station, Hoyt/Schermerhorn, South Ferry, Bowling Green, and Columbus Circle come to mind immediately.
-Hank
Sure! Any 3-track express station, Hoyt/Schermerhorn, South Ferry, Bowling Green, and Columbus Circle come to mind immediately.
South Ferry, Bowling Green are two track stations. I'm not counting the stub track at Bowling Green that isn't used.
Columbus Circle is not a three-track express stop either. Both the IND and IRT levels have four-track alignments. But there are three island platforms on the IND level. What was the point of the middle platform at the IND Columbus Circle station?
At one time Columbus Circle was a major stop (may still be, I don't really know) with connections to crosstown streetcar lines and other surface transport. This platform permitted both sides of the subway cars to be opened for faster entrance and exit. It hasn't been used in many years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This platform permitted both sides of the subway cars to be opened for faster entrance and exit. It hasn't been used in many years.
Well, they DID use it for the Triplex Railfan Trips this summer.
First and only time I've ever set foot on it.
wayne
The center platform at 59th St. was used during rush hours up until around 1974. I remember getting off a northbound A train once in December of 1969 onto the center platform and boarding a southbound D train a few minutes later. And this was an R-32 D train.
Where the ouside platforms ever used at Hoyt and Schermerhorn when the original " HH " ran to Court and did the center track employ a platform conductor? This question will need a reeealllly old subfan.
I bet it was a rare occassion to see all six tracks occupied! if ever. Can you imagine 52 R 1/9s in the same station . What sound effects!
avid
I wasn't around then, but I'm almost positive the outer platforms at Hoyt-Schermerhorn were used when the Court St. shuttle was still in business. The switches to the outer tracks are east of the station, away from the intricate flying junction. Can't comment on the platform conductors.
Had the Second System been built, it's a safe bet you'd have all six tracks at S. 4th St. occupied fairly regularly.
In the 'Good Old Days' when the R1-9's and R10's were running there would be a platform conductor on the center island that would open and close the doors so that people could get on/off quickly.
Did the same thing ever happen on the stub platform at the terminal at Chambers street? I realize it's only about 300ft or so long , but was it ever used?
avid
I meant ALL of them. The stations on their own are NOT 3-track, but the third rail IS under the platform. All three-track express stations, AND South Ferry, etc...
-Hank
BWAY NASSAU.
wayne
I work that line 1 day a week. They are doing a chipout at WIlson Ave. Some new concrete has already been poured- check the Canarsaie bound track as you leave the station.
Currently at Broadway Jct all trains are opening their doors on the island platform.
I have seen survey marks at Myrtle and Halsey(on the L) so maybe renovation is pending.
WHEN are they going to put up new wall tile at the northbound Wilson Avenue trackside wall? Before they hang a single panel, I MUST make sure that all 21 colors are present! :o)
(21 out of the 28 colors are in the band; the 7 others are in the tablets)
wayne
Sounds as if we may have to revisit that station on a future excursion.
TA mad at depiction os subways in Mercedes Benz ad,
WE CALL IT SCRATCHITTI NOW
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>"The graffiti you splashed all over the Benz in your ad is a gross misrepresentation of New York's venerable subways," Reuter wrote.<<<
I can't help but wonder that if they showed it with all the windows scratched up instead, would they be happy? LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
I have an appointment with the MTA coming up about the train operator job, does anyone know if I have a choice between choosing what line I want to work or do they assign you a specific line?
(I have an appointment with the MTA coming up about the train operator job, does anyone know if I have a choice between
choosing what line I want to work or do they assign you a specific line?)
My understanding is there is a "pick," with those with higher seniority getting to do the picking. As a new hire, expect the middle of the night on a line far from you home. However, after a few years you can do better.
First you have to find out what Division your work for???
You can't cross divisions without retraining I believe.
I asked the same about Conducter and here is what I was told:
The first day of school car one of teo things will happen- either you'll be told that all fo you will go to A Division or B Division or secondly there will be an in-class pick, based on your class seniority number(based on your list number) for choice fo A or B.
Just like Stations, you will start as Extra Extra and get the worst jobs and possibly be bumped by the regular. Even as extra I have been bumped--One night I was bumped twice and went to four booths before I was given a job. (I was bumped from booth 1 and told to go to booth 2 where I was bumped also by the regular[the hours at booth 2 were later]. I was told to go to booth 3 and call from booth 3. I went to booth 2 and told to call back in an hour and finally sent to booth 4. I dont remember the stations involved.)
You have to make two visits to the TA medical center before you are hired. The first visit is an all day physical(full physical) and drug testing. This will last from 8am to 4pm and you will not be paid for your time. The second time you will take another drug test and this is the time that you will officially be hired. Whether this two visit policy is still in effect remains to be seen.
After you are hired, you will report to TA school in Bensonhurst(PS 248). There you will find out if you can pick which division(A or B) that you would like to work. (A div.=IRT......B div.=IND/BMT) or if you will be mandated into one of these divisions without choice. Most of the time a choice is given.
After your T/O schooling is completed, you will have absolutely no choice as to which line that you will want to work, no choice as to what location or borough you would like to work from and no choice as to your starting time for at least 2 years minimum. This is called being "extra extra". At the completion of schooling, the crew office will ask you what shift that you would like to work. You can select AM, PM or Midnights.The shift times are:
AM:You could start at anytime between 4 am and 12 noon.
PM:You could start at anytime between 12 noon and 9 pm(very few PM jobs start after 7 pm).
Midnight:You could start at anytime between 9 pm and 4 am.
Once again, you will have no choice as to the time that you will start on any shift.
Your days off will most likely be Tuesday-Wednesday or Wednesday-Thursday. You want weekends off?HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. ROFL.
During these two years you will have randomly assigned jobs. You could have in a five day week on the PM shift:
Sunday-D at Bedford Park, 2:18 pm reporting time
Monday-Garbage train at 207th St Yard, 8:40 pm report
Tuesday & Wednesday off
Thursday-E at Parsons Blvd, 4:23 pm report
Friday-L at Canarsie, 5:05 pm report
Saturday-R at 95th Street, 5:30 pm report
or on the AM shift:
Sunday-A at Far Rockaway, 4:07 am report
Monday-F at 179th Street, 11:57 am report
Tuesday & Wednesday off
Thursday-B at 38 St Yard(Bklyn), 4:16 am report
Friday-yard switching at Coney Island Yard, 8 am report
Saturday-D at Bedford Park, 10:17 am report
Of course you could get lucky and receive a few assignments in a row close to home but it's up to the crew assignment office and totally out of your hands.
You will receive two weeks vacation for the first two years and four weeks after that. In the beginning, you will only be able to pick your vacation time in the winter months. You will not see summer vacation for a long, long time. At least 8-10 years.
After two years, you will be able to pick your job assignments according to seniority. In the beginning, the jobs available will be crappy but over time they will eventually get better. When you pick(after two years), if there are job assignments available, you MUST pick one no matter how crappy it is. You cannot elect to stay "extra extra" if jobs are available.
To get Saturday-Sunday off on a regular assignment, you will need approximately 10 years as a T/O on the PM/MID shifts and 14 years on the AM shift. For part of the weekend off (Fri-Sat or Sun-Mon), subtract 2 years on each shift. As you get more "time" in, your jobs get better, your vacations get better and your days off get better. You could even have a switching job from 8 am to 4 pm with Saturday-Sunday off and summer vacations. Of course to have all this, you'll need at least 15 years in title. Everything gets better until you wish to recieve a promotion. When you get promoted to supervisor, your seniority starts again at zero and you have to start all over again.
The T/O is a great job but you will have to "pay your dues" first.
In the words of the Wizard, " Ignore that man behind the curtain."
Actually, most of what zman says is accurate. Where we differ might just be because we are in different divisions - he works the B, I'm in the A. A this point, I have been in title for 13.5 months (on the road alone for 10). I now have a picked RDO Relief job on the Midnights ( 4 nights at VC, 1 at White plains); I could have also picked 53 out of 70 on the Vacation Relief list, had a straight PM job, had a PM RDO Relief job, or picked PM MIsc Extra. The rest of my family's schedule does not allow me to work PMs if I have a choice, so I took the Mids instead of the VR crapshoot. During the summer pick, which just ended, I worked AMs, had Fri/ Sat RDOs, and was off for all three holidays (Memorial, July 4, LAbor). Since Dec of 97, when I came in as a CR, I have yet to work on Christmas or Memorial Day, worked 1 Thanksgiving on Midnights with F/S off, all while being Extra.
Opening my calendar at random, here are two weeks from the summer pick:
Sun 5/28 - 0900 @ 240Yard -Track Test - washed two trains at 207Yard, OKed two trains for service.
Mon 5/29 - Memorial Day - Off
Tue 5/30 - 0843 @ VC - 227 job - three trips to South Ferry
Wed 5/31 - 0800 @ 240Yard - GO Yard job - lay-up one train at 240 Yard, wash one train at 207Yard, lay it up there, lunch, bring train back to 240 Yard.
Thur 6/1 - 0945 @ Atlantic - x503 Switch - GO switch job created by supplement, lay-up a 4 train from Atl to 3 track south of Atl, lunch, put-in a 4 train from somewhere south of Bergen on 3 track to Atlantic Ave, WAA at Utica Ave.
Fri/ Sat - OFF
Sun 8/6 - 0847 @ Lenox - 213 job/3- Three trips to New Lots, clears 1736
Mon 8/7 - 0555 @ Westchester Yard - 228 job/6 - Put-in and three trips Parkchester- Bklyn Bridge.
Tue 8/8 - 0757 @ VC - 222 job - three trips to South Ferry.
Wed 8/9 - 0539 @ VC - 208 job - 1.5 hrs WAA, then three trips to South Ferry.
Thur 8/10 - 1045 @ Mott - x506 job/5 - GO job created by supplement - 1 trip Mott to the Green and back, 2 nd trip Mott, to the Green and up to Dyre. This second trip is the second trip in the "Day in the Life of a TO" posted elsewhere on this site.
Fri/ Sat - OFF
On of the guys at VC nows has a Station Switch job on the AMs, with Sun/ SAt off and only 12 years in title, which is three years better than zman's estimate. Again, I don't know how much of these differences are caused by being in different Divisions, and how much by bad guess work.
As you are aware, we are in different divisions. B division seniority is much worse than A division seniority.
Alex, you said in an earlier post that you were looking for a job in the B division so I looked for you(I do not know if you remember this). Anyway, when your time came up, there were roughly 40 jobs left. Compare this to what you could select in the A division. Many T/O's that I know that transferred over into the B from the A said that their seniority goes a lot farther in the A.
I remember. When I went to pick in the B div, I had a choice of 69 out of 70 on the VR list, Midnight OPTO Extra in Queens, or late PMs in Queens. Asa result, I decided to stay in the A, where even if I got really horrid jobs, at least I would know the people.
Alex L, you mean to tell me that you could have had #53 out of 70 on the VR list with only 13 months in title in the A division?
I have over 3 years in title and I am #61 out of 70 on the VR list in the B division.
WHOA! I knew that A division seniority was better but I didn't think that it was THAT MUCH better! Go figure!
Note to Vernon or any other T/O wannabe: Go to the IRT if you want to escape the "growing pains"!
And I noticed that you were able to take AVA's(personal days off) on your holidays in the A.
In the B, if you do not personally hand in your request EXACTLY 30 days in advance of the specific holiday, then there is a 99% chance that the AVA request will be denied. And if you want Thanksgiving, Christmas or New Year's Day off, then you better be AT THE CREW OFFICE at 12:01 am to hand in your request. And you had better have a preferable spot on line so that the other T/O's dont shut you out.
You might wanna hang out in the A for a little while.
What about religious observance?
I'll work Easter or Xmas but I need the Jewish New Year off, how would that work? I assume they charge it to Vacation but how can you insure that you get it off?
No, I didn't take an AVA for any holiday. Being at the top of the Extra List, the crew office gave me the day - or rather forced me to take it off.
They FORCED you to take a day off? Now that's a first for me!!!
Any shot of getting the A division crew office to swallow up the B office?
The seniority isn't much better. If you compare the file numbers that have weekends off or part of them, you'll notice the numbers are pretty much the same.
The comparison is between both divisions.
Well, actually, I cheated. You were probably one of the last classes to come out from a promotional exam. About two years ago, they started taking applications to move to TO provisionally ( anyone who went this way would have to pass the next TO test to remain in title). I didn't go provisional, because I didn't have the time. When they gave the test in (May, June, July?) of '99, I took it and was number 46 on the certified list. As a result, when they renumbered us for seniority, I moved up 180ish slots and was able to pick, whereas some people I know who went provisional early on, but didn't do well on the test had a picked job last pick and are now Extra Extra.
So you took the T/O test around June 99 and got called about 4 months later. Just goes to show you that anything can happen in the TA. I took the test in September 94 and it took them 3 years to ratify the test and call me. And I was on the very top of the list too.
Okay folks?
Thanks,
Dave
You coudln't have given us more 24 hours?
Excuse me for not having much faith in the idea that after today the conversation would magically steer itself back to relevancy without any input from me.
I have discovered that most conversations based on current events (the election) will die out once the events cease to be current (Nov 9). There will simply be other things to talk about. A Message Board should be regulated as little as possible because normal market forces will drive the threads to their equalibrium position where total benifit is maximized. By instuting a content floor you create a shortage of posts with a much higher level of uninterest. While the producers are transit related posts will enjoy more readership due to the lack of competition from off topic posts, the consumers will not recieve as much utility as they had when able to respond to all the off topic election related posts. Given time the transit post producers will either make their posts more enjoyable to all or add some sort of election theme to be more inline with what the post consumer wants.
Also I only saw 1 post where someone asked for the MB to get back on topic, indicating that the vast majority of SubTalkers had no problem with the raging political debate that was sort of related to transit.
*I have a Micro-economics exam tomorrow and I think I've studied a bit too much.
Many of us silently endured the superplethora of off-topic political posts and are thankful that Mr. Pirmann chose to close it out.
Next we need to eliminate these myraid vocabulary threads.
>>> While the producers are transit related posts will enjoy more readership due to the lack of competition from off topic posts, the consumers will not recieve as much utility as they had when able to respond to all the off topic election related posts <<<
If you wish to provide utility to consumers who want to respond to off topic posts, start your own message board. Do not hijack this one.
Tom
If you wish to provide utility to consumers who want to respond to off topic posts, start your own message board. Do not hijack this one.
One person cannot carry on a conversation (schizophrenics excepted). It's quite clear that a number of Subtalkers have spoken and they want OT messages.
I invite both sides to vote for whether they like, dislike or don't care about the off topic posts. My opinion is quite clear on the matter.
As far as off topic posts-I guess its ok ONLY if you change the the subject line. If is goes off topic I stop looking at it and will miss stuff if it goes back on topic !
Have a nice day !!
Right On! There's nothing more annoying than scrolling thru to read threads, only to find it off topic.
Admittedly, I go off too. Must learn to control that, or change the thread heading.
IMHO, there are some VERY interesting readings here. For instance the posts about Interurbans across the country and a NY to Philly line were great. I am sorry that I missed many of the Interurbans. About 4 years ago I finally got a copy of Middleton's Interurban Era, a book I've wanted since it was published, about 1960 or so. Couldn't afford one back then. (could barely do so now!) I cherish that book. Really makes you understand what the rails did for these towns they served and sewed together. I'm a big fan of light rail. It is hard not to make the comparisons; they'll never be the interurbans of yesterday. But, better than nothing at all.
Joe C.
You forget that this board is not a democracy. Dave Pirmann created it, Dave Pirmann maintains it, and it runs on Dave Pirmann's web server. If he decides that off-topic posts are not allowed, or that left-handed people with brown eyes and red hair are prohibited from posting, that's soley his call to make.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I actually am Left Handed with brown eyes and red hair....
You ugly bastard, you can't post here anymore!
-Hank :)
and I thought you liked me.... :)
I didn't say it was a Democracy. I said it was a compeditive market place and Dave is acting like government regulation. I know that most people on this board believe that regulation of markets is a bad thing so I tried an arguement that people and or Dave might sympathize with.
Sub Talk is Dave Pirmann's property. Dave's regulation of content is merely an exercise of property rights. Newspapers choose which reader's letters appear in print. Those who believe in free markets and property rights will back Dave up. and while I believe in a certain amount of regulation, there would be no pressing societal need to force Dave to carry my rantings, therefore Dave has the right to delete them, or kick me off his property altogether.
Or Dave can take it one step further and just shut it down altogether.
As the late Eve Arden once said on The Mothers-in-Law: "Because it's my house and my book and my cards."
"If he decides that off-topic posts are not allowed, or that left-handed people with brown eyes and red hair are prohibited from posting, that's soley his call to make."
And that would be discrimination and therefore illegal.
Wrong. This board is a private endeavor and can be run any way its owner sees fit. Dave can confirm this, but as far as I know he's not recieving a dime of taxpayer money to run this thing.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It doesn't matter. Discriminating against people based on hair color or other things for no valid reason violates several laws. Whether taxpayer money is in play or not.
Man you guys sure know how to blow things out of proportion. No one is being discriminated against. All I ask is a little self control. Which, I think is clearly evident, I'm never going to get. I think someone should start thinking about starting a new discussion board, my server's CPU has better things to be doing.
If the server is getting abused by off topic rants, I think David has the right (maybe the obligation) to delete the posts so that we can all get better service and he does not have to do upgrades as often. He is running this out of his pocket !!
I'll donate some money if reasonable off-"topic" threads can be disgussed.
As soon as we start disgussing things, we'll let you know. That being the case, please stay out of our discussions.
-Hank
GMAFB!
I love how a request from the discussion group's owner and moderator
to stay more on topic devolves into an off-topic pissing contest
about the topic of being off-topic!
Geez, in case you missed it: this isn't USENET. You don't
pay a dime for this service. The host and owner of the
service, Mr. Pirmann, has every legal and moral right to
establish policies concerning conduct and content. By
requesting and accepting a posting handle and password, you
agreed to these terms and conditions. If you don't like it,
leave.
Geez, in case you missed it: this isn't USENET. You don't
pay a dime for this service.
I don't remember even mailing in a USENET bill.
He may have the legal right, but that doesn't give him the moral right.
Pigs, IT'S HIS PROPERTY
I believe you just don't want to accept the fact that you aren't free to discuss whatever you want to. Based on how you will usually argue a subject, you would never go into a moral agruement about anything.
I'm not going to get into an argument about what USENET is and
how it has been financed over the years (it predates the internet,
or at least V4, by a few years). The point is this is not a
USENET forum which is owned, in a sense, by its contributors.
One more time: David Pirmann decided a few years ago that he
would create an online discussion board for transit-related
topics. It was, in effect, a spinoff of the nyc.transit newsgroup
and one of the reasons for taking it private was to avoid
spam and off-topic drivel. Pirmann funds it, Pirmann invests his
time in developing and maintaining it. I don't understand how
you can say he doesn't have the moral right to request that
its users (who pay nothing for the service, not even the privilege
of being bombarded by advertisements) obey a few simple guidelines.
An analogy: a man invites you into his home for tea and once inside
you claim he has no right to ask that you not piss on his carpet.
It takes a lot to get you excited, but I think you comments were overdue & on-target.
BTW, I don't like guests pissing in my pool either.
Mr t__:^)
You have a pool?? >G< Didn't know that.
I agree with you and Jeff BTW
The thing is that things like politics and SUV's and gasoline prices and Suburban Sprall and highways are VERY related to transit. Even if a post about politics or SUV's in itsself doen not mention transit specifically it is still a realted transit topic. "Off-Topic" posts FREQUENTLY bring up direct transit topics. I have never seen SubTalk go completely off topic and start yacking about movie stars or casino gambling. I don't know why people are always mad about long "off topic" threads, or "off topic" floods. The more messages you have on an MB the better the chance is you'll find something of interest to yourself or something you can comment about. I'm sick of waiting hour after hour for someone to post something on Subtalk. Our exaulted leader has done a great job with this site and I don't see why he has to waste his time policing the MB. We a flamer latches on I'm sure someone will tell him. I don't want to go to another MB, I want to discuss things with the people here. If I post an off topic post (which I rarely do) its because I either want a railfan or a New York perspective.
>>>I'm sick of waiting hour after hour for someone to post something on Subtalk.<<<
Then, turn OFF the computer, Go OUT and get a life.
Peace,
ANDEE
Good point, Andee.
Some people post here as if it is their sole purpose in life.
BMTman
Anything can be related to transit if you stretch it
hard enough, whether it be ladies' fashion (high heels
and stairway accidents) or penis enlargement (possible
effects of third rail electro-urinary contact).
The off-topic posts, in and of themselves, are not the problem.
It is the inability to filter out threads that are not
of interest to a particular reader that causes the real
aggravation. Part of that is technical: WebBBS does not
do thread splits and merges {and if I suddenly have a lot
of free time and David P. is willing I could offer some
Perl hacking suggestions to address that}, but most of it
is lack of self-control and online manners.
I'll have to echo Andee's sentiments that if you are sitting
by the screen waiting for a post, hour after hour, you obviously
have too much free time. I'll make the somewhat self-serving
observation that there are two operating railway museums
equidistant from Meriden: The Connecticut Trolley Museum which
is about 20 minutes north of Hartford, and The Shore Line Trolley
Museum which is 5 minutes east of New Haven. I'd say about a dozen
SubTalk patrons volunteer at Shore Line. If you can learn to operate
a trolley car, screwdriver, spike maul or paintbrush you'd be
welcome at either place.
I'll be glad to help just as soon as I knit myself a car and even then I'd have to pay those awful CT gas prices. I've explored every RR site w/in biking distance and I have a good amount of activities. However on Sat/Sun afternoons or specific weeknights I have long periods in my room and a larger number of posts would be appriciated.
> I have long periods in my room
Are you grounded? :-)
-Dave
I'll actually try to swing this one back on topic!
You mention "awful CT gas prices". Actually, as a result of
the recent gas price "crisis", CT temporarily relaxed some of
the gas taxes. The result is that Hess on Frontage Road
in East Haven, as of last week, was selling regular unleaded
for $1.5799. That's about 10 cents cheaper than the best prices
I've seen in NYC. Usually that station, which is the cheapest
gas for miles and is always mobbed, is a couple of cents higher
than NYC cheap gas.
Even so, how much does high gas price actually contribute to
trip cost? My round trip from NYC to Shore Line Trolley
Museum is 160 miles. At a conservative 20 mpg, that 10 cent
difference means less than a dollar in my round trip cost.
In fact, even at the outrageous price of $1.80 per gallon,
that whole round trip costs me under $15.00. Include the
$7 round trip tolls and it's $22.
Guess how much a round trip ticket on Metro North costs?
$23.00 So even in times of high gas prices, public transit,
at least in CT, is still a bit more expensive than driving.
Of course, there are the "soft costs" such as parking,
wear-and-tear, and about 3 hours of my time.
MetroNorth and the other commuter RR have a fairly poor farebox
ratio, i.e. they are more heavily subsidized than NYC subways.
What's the break-even point for a subway ride? With the flat
fare of $1.50, which is $1.36 after metrocard discount, the subway
becomes cheaper than driving at a distance of about 16 miles.
My trip happens to be 13 miles (by car).
It takes about 45 minutes to make that trip by subway,
or 17 route miles per hour. Only during the most horrendous
of traffic conditions is it actually slower for me to drive in.
Of course, if you're driving an SUV or a 1969 Chrysler New Yorker,
fuel economy is much lower and the break-even point is different.
My round trip from NYC to Shore Line Trolley Museum is 160 miles. At a conservative 20 mpg, that 10 cent difference means less than a dollar in my round trip cost. In fact, even at the outrageous price of $1.80 per gallon, that whole round trip costs me under $15.00. Include the $7 round trip tolls and it's $22.
Guess how much a round trip ticket on Metro North costs? $23.00 So even in times of high gas prices, public transit, at least in CT, is still a bit more expensive than driving. Of course, there are the "soft costs" such as parking, wear-and-tear, and about 3 hours of my time.
There's another cost of driving that's becoming more and more signficant these days. It wasn't long after we leased our Rodeo last July that we began paying careful attention to the odometer. Our lease with Isuzu Motors Acceptance is fairly typical, allowing 39,000 miles in its 39-month term (in other words, 1,000 miles per month) with an excess mileage penalty at term end of 15 cents per mile. Leasing is more and more common today, given the high price of vehicles, which means that mileage limits are becoming a big deal for many drivers, and the penalty costs have to be added into drive-or-ride decisions.
The vast majority of the costs of auto use are fixed -- purchase or lease, financing, insurance. Once you have the car, it is almost always cheaper and easier to drive it -- unless you are going to Manhattan, and don't get parking on the cuff.
Transit is thus generally limited to those who cannot drive, because they are too young, too old, or too poor. Good transit can compete only if it allows people to have no cars (good for those without kids) or one instead of two. Not too many places like that.
"Transit is thus generally limited to those who cannot drive, because they are too young, too old, or too poor."
Though it's clearly not your intent, that sounds exactly like what an ANTI-transit activist (Wendell Cox, etc.) or suburban know-nothing (the kind who says with a prideful grin that he hasn't been downtown in 20 years) would say. "I don't want to ride a train, 'cuz only the poor ride trains."
How do you explain commuter rail with heavy ridership in suburbs where every household has a car and most have multiple cars? And they aren't just busy on the weekend. Every time I ride Metra on the weekend, the trains are packed, with nearly every seat occupied. Even with discounted weekend and family fares, it's cheaper for a group of four or more in a single vehicle to drive into downtown Chicago on the weekend if you look around a little bit for a parking space or lot. Yet they ride the trains downtown, because it's faster (yes, even on the weekends) and less stressful.
How do you explain the light rail systems all over the country? Yes, they don't have ridership in the hundreds of thousands like the Lexington subway or the Chicago, Washington, and Boston transit systems. But they are busy, with riderships in the mid to high five figures, and I doubt that's mainly attributable to people who can't drive because they're "too young, too old, or too poor". More importantly, these light rail systems are expanding. Sprawling Sunbelt cities that built light rail -- Denver, Salt Lake City, Dallas, etc. -- have popularly-supported plans to extend their systems. Why would voters back tax increases to fund transit networks if they aren't using them?
It's true that commuter and most light rail systems have a high reliance on park-and-ride lots at the outer stations. Cars are the predominant "feeders" to these networks, where buses and walking are the main feeders in older cities like Chicago and Boston. But that fact still flies directly in the face of your assertion that transit is used mostly by the carless. The users of park and ride are making a decision, for whatever reason (expense, hassle, environmentalism), to ride rail transit though a car is clearly at their disposal.
"Good transit can compete only if it allows people to have no cars (good for those without kids) or one instead of two. Not too many places like that."
Setting the bar rather high, aren't we? Transit doesn't have to compete on an all-or-nothing basis of replacing replacing a/the family car. All it has to do is be a viable substitute for an increasing number of individual trips. Look at the cities with light rail, where their system operates with crush loads on the days of sporting events, festivals, etc.. And as I previously stated, lots of people who drive everywhere when they travel in the suburbs take the train when they head into the city center, whether for work or pleasure. Any place where park and ride lots fill up is a refutation of the argument that transit is a success only where it completely displaces an automobile.
("Good transit can compete only if it allows people to have no cars (good for those without kids) or one instead of two. Not too many places like that."
Setting the bar rather high, aren't we? Transit doesn't have to compete on an all-or-nothing basis of replacing replacing a/the family car...Any place where park and ride lots fill up is a refutation of the argument that transit is a success only where it completely displaces an automobile.)
In that case, transit isn't competing with the automobile. Transit is competing with the cost and convenience of parking alone, a much more difficult competition. In almost every case, if you are already paying for a car, it will be cheaper and faster to use it -- unless parking is unavailable.
But Larry, there are many places where it can be faster. This is one thing about the new systems - they are built for speed. So during rush hour or going to a football game, they end up being faster. The cost of parking makes transit cost competitive, too.
In that case, transit isn't competing with the automobile. Transit is competing with the cost and
convenience of parking alone, a much more difficult competition. In almost every case, if you are
already paying for a car, it will be cheaper and faster to use it -- unless parking is unavailable.
Larry, why does transit have to compete with the private
automobile. Isn't a more modern view that a good, well-designed
and well-managed public transit system complements, rather than
competes with, cars and highways? That's why I get ticked when
I read editorials in, e.g., the AAA magazine complaining about
how the MTA is "ripping off" drivers (who, as we know, have a
constitutional right to drive whatever, wherever, whenever)
by using toll money to subsidize public transit. Every train
that enters Manhattan during the rush hour spares a thousand
or so cars.
We often hear about the farebox ratio, i.e. the percentage of
the actual cost of a transit customer's trip that is paid for
directly by that customer. Here's a question to consider:
what is the equivalent ratio for the private car?
I had a similar argument with a South Jersey friend who worked in Philly (not in a transit-appropriate location) when PATCO first started and complained that his Ben Franklin Bridge toll was subsidizing PATCO. At the end of PATCO's first week of service into Philly I asked him how traffic was on the bridge and he replied that it had suddenly become much lighter. I pointed out that PATCO was responsible. He replied that he felt that the subsidy was worthwhile and he didn't complain about it again.
Here's a question to consider: what is the equivalent ratio for the private car?
The then new MBTA was able to show that Boston subsidized each automobile commuter to the tune of $25,000 per annum back around 1966. The figures were unassailable and convinced the political establishment that public transit was worth its subsidies.
(We often hear about the farebox ratio, i.e. the percentage of
the actual cost of a transit customer's trip that is paid for
directly by that customer. Here's a question to consider: what is the equivalent ratio for the private car?)
Think of what the driver pays for: the purchase, maintenance, insurance, and operation of the car. The government pays for the ROW in taxes. I'd measure transit the same way. I'd also count the maintenance of the stations (but not revenue collection) as public amenities to be funded by tax dollars.
I'd say the subway measures up on an "auto-equivalent basis."
This simple accounting leaves out a couple of things. The car driver creates more pollution and ROW congestion than the subway rider, but the car driver also pays fuel and motor vehicle taxes and tolls to pay for the ROW. I'd say the two would balance each other out in a fair system. The use of toll and car tax money to pay for transit ROW would constitute "rent" to the transit rider for giving up scarce road and airspace.
How about the indirect costs associated with autos? Besides
pollution, there's the cost of the extra burden placed on
law enforcement and emergency response agencies.
Illinois may repeal the state gas tax because of the "high" cost of gasoline. I guess they have never been to Europe where filling the tank of a midsize car can cost $100.
"Illinois may repeal the state gas tax because of the 'high' cost of gasoline."
I saw that tidbit buried in the middle of a Sun-Times paragraph about legislation before the Assembly. When they "temporarily" repealed the five-percent sales tax on gasoline due to the "gas crisis" of the summer (like you said, $2/gal is no crisis compared to Europe), I said that it was a bad idea because it wouldn't be temporary -- nobody in the Assembly would want to go on record as specifically voting to restore it. The response people gave me at the time was to not worry, because the suspension law stated that the tax would be automatically restored in December (I don't recall the date). Now it seems that I was right to be concerned.
That's the sales tax on gas, not the gas tax itself. The tax in question is 5%, IINM, and it's been suspended since June 1. The current temporary suspension ends at the end of the year; we'll see if it becomes permanent.
FWIW, gas in Champaign-Urbana currently runs about $1.559 for 87 octane. The price has been remarkably steady lately; over the past month it's gradually dropped about a nickel.
You shouldn't lease a car, its a waste of money. Buy a car and use it for 20 years. We need to get away from out throw away society. What we saved on insurance alone was enough to cover the frequent repairs to our 1972 Mustang and/or 1974 LTD. Not having to worry about such trivial things like emmissions were another perk.
>>>...1969 Chrysler New Yorker<<<
Don't you mean 1969 Chrysler 300??
Peace,
ANDEE
We know what he ment, it's that big green boat that sometimes is seen in the Shoreline parking lot ... with a new heater that has one position now ... ON.
My slightly smaller chrysler (LeBaron Convertable) has 104 K on it now, but still gets decent gas mileage.
Back to the topic ... when I drive my AeroStar or Doug drives his Chrysler the bell gings a lot more times so the 10 or 15 cent change in the price becomes more visable.
Mr t__:^)
HEY, JEFF!!! CHEAP SHOT!!
Maybe you'd like to exchange the 300's 440 hp engine for a set of traction motors? I hear you're quite go at electrical work...;-)
BMTman
Now I'll give you some news to rejoice about.
I went up to San Francisco this past weekend. Around where I live (30 miles southeast of Los Angeles), gas is running around $1.75 a gallon.
Once you get over the mountains and into the central valley portion of California, you're seeing (SIT DOWN!!) $2.29 a gallon!!! Right in San Francisco, it goes from $1.95 a gallon up to $2.09 a gallon, depending on what part of the city.
Headed east, went to Reno, and gassed up in Carson City again. It was $1.69 a gallon there at some off-brand convenience mart full of hillbillies buying beer (none of them looked like they bathed anywhere recently...) And further down US395, in Bishop, topped off my tank at $1.95 a gallon.
Ah, but how much was the beer?
Heheheh, never even noticed. Never touched a drop in my 50 years on earth, so it isn't going to start interesting me now....
I know that Hess -formerly Merit- in East Haven very well. When I drive to the Native American casinos, I always stop off there (the Chinese buffet in the shopping center across the Pike helps, too), as it's by far the cheapest gas I've ever seen in the state- at least without meandering off onto heavily-trafficked Route 1, which acts a service road for 95 through East Haven. Last time I was there in June, at the height of prices, they were charging $1.74, still higher than most stations on the Island.
The stations in the more rural New London/Groton/Ledyard area are far more expensive. Of course, in 'wealthy' Fairfield county, prices are off the charts as well. Someone said this is because Connecticut is "a rich state". (This, of course, can be refuted if you ever see parts of Hartford, New Haven, Bridgeport or Waterbury!) Under that line of thinking, the low prices in New Jersey must mean that state is dirt poor- large, estate-ridden parts of Bergen, Mercer, Middlesex, Monmouth and Somerset Counties not withstanding.
Anyway, judging from the horrendous southbound traffic on 95 I see all the way past Hew Haven implies that a lot of people can't- or won't- use Metro North to get to work. It's very easy to try to browbeat people into using it, but unless there's a direct, convenient train or bus between home and work, there's little choice but to drive. I have a friend who lives in Monmouth and works on Staten Island. Anyone know a bus or train between the two?
I'm probably just a guilty because I drive to the gambling meccas in A.C. and NE Conn, whereas there are buses that give bonuses and of course save you money on gas and tolls. However, my desire to arrive at my destination at an early hour, which enables me to get home in time for dinner, combined with the often unpleasant conditions on these buses (late, drunks, overripe bathrooms, people who lost a bundle and take it out on everyone else, terrible movies played loudly) lands me in the gas guzzler every time.
"If you wish to provide utility to consumers who want to respond to off topic posts, start your own message board. Do not hijack this one."
Hey, old tom, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. You surely have posted your share of off topic posts.
BTW, when you removed all those election related posts did you realize that there wasn't anything left for people to read. Even the tumbleweed's gone.
Looks like the "which candidate is better for transit?" posts are still there, which makes sense for this board, IMO. I didn't see the other "election posts" cause I was away this weekend...
I would guess it is hard to keep rigidly on topic when it comes to politics, because, really, politics and public transit are so intertwined, how can you completely separate the two? I do agree that blatant plugs for this or that candidate, party, or ideology, where they don't pertain to transit at all, might not have a place here. However, myself often being one to steer the board away from the "why is this nut screwed onto this bolt on the R-32?"-type topics, who am I to criticize?
If it is not on a Transit Topic it should GO PERIOD, I don't come here to read about prochoice. This topic should go IMHO >G<.
For my part, I try to relate all my posts to transit, and I think I'm fairly conscientous in this regard. If politics enters in, it's transit related somehow, if sometimes not as directly as a purist might have it. But to me, transit isn't just about the nuts and bolts, but also about the attitudes towards it, how it's funded, the history thereof (especially), etc. With these topics, you can't escape politics. I didn't see the whole abortion debate thread you reference, so obviously I'm not the culprit in that one. I can't see how that issue might have related to transit, though.
I think the point is, what does DAVE think the scope of this site should include. For those items that fall outside, folks who want to talk about them should make an effort to do it somewhere else.
I also feel that Dave is very tollerant with what he doesn't think belongs here, but once in a while when the whole discussion seems to be moving away or there is a particularly offensive topic started, he needs & has every right to say HEY GUYS, CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK ON TOPIC.
I for one can no longer count all the stuff that I've learned here & am very appreciative to him for providing this forum to meet new friends with the same fetish (my wife has another word of it).
Thanks Dave !
Mr t__:^)
The Question we need to ask ourselves is, Is SubTalk a place where people can talk about transit or a place where people who like transit, can talk.
I say the latter.
I say we should define transit related as anything that is commonly talked about by groups of transit buffs.
According to Dave, SubTalk is a place where people can talk about transit. Read the information at the top of the index page!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The same point I was trying to make.
Mr t__:^)
What harm has come from the following topics:
Nedicks
Nathans
Fast Food
Coney Island Attractions OTHER than Stillwell Ave and the Yards
Why I call them 'Hot Dogs'
Where's heypaul?
Not much, huh?
Now, what harm has come from these topics:
R142
Redbird
Railfan Window
Salaam Allah likes the Railfain Window
Transverse Cabs Suck
Say NO to OPTO
Tunnel to Staten Island
What goes on with a thread depends solely on the content we, the users, provide it. As I said before, while this site is meant to be a transit discussion group that doesn't have to deal with the likes of Marc Kortlander (Although I'd love to introduce Salaam to him (That's a compliment to Salaam)), we've basically become a Coffee Klatch of transit buffs with PCs some of us don't understand. We start with transit as a common intrest. We explore from there. Many of us discover other intrests. Some persons here may actually be dating. The point is, while yes, transit is our main focus, we share numerous opinions on various other subjects, and there's no reason it can't be discussed within reason.
-Hank
For the record, I would like to echo your sentiments concerning appreciation of this board as a place where railfans can get together and share information and experiences. I would like to thank Dave Pirmann also, and I do agree that it's his call when it comes to the use (or abuse) of his resources. I'd hate to lose this forum, and my posts in this thread are meant to convey that attitude, and to express my desire to NOT be considered one of the abusers. Long live SubTalk. :o)
I second Dave's request, and prase his patience with some of the nonsense that get put up on this site. However, I don't mind a little joking around if it relates to mass transit.
For me this is a place to learn & talk to my friends both near and far.
Mr t__:^)
I apologize if this has already been posted - there's an amusing article in Sunday's Star-Ledger on railfanning in New Jersey, including some quotes from railfans (maybe you?) and bewildered commuters, and a "where to trainspot in New Jersey" guide. In the same section, an article on Pat DiNizio, lead singer of the Smithereens and Reform Party candidate for Senate, who is campaigning by trolley bus.
Is there an on-line link to this article?
--Mark
I couldn't find it online, unfortunately. If I have time later, I'll try to transcribe it; it's not very long. If you want to look for yourself, try The Star-Ledger online; maybe I missed it.
Speaking as a person who has been to 'Go-Go' places, I have to say that each has it's merits, and it really depends on your mood and what your significant other will tolerate. In my case, I have a better chance of going to a strip bar than taking her on a train ride in 95 degree heat. :)
-Hank
What if you could combine the 2 activities. During an open house Go-Go girls could dance and pose and be provocitive in, on and around the locomotives. If you bring enough money they might even take you for a "cab ride".
In today's Daily News there is an article
that projects some hope for the beginnings of what
could be a full regional system.
Tri-State Fare Card Eyed
Why create another debit card system, let Visa or MC handle it.
Arti
Because not everyone has credit cards. More importantly multi-agency fare cards allow for tegional discounts. The easiest to implement for instance would be MetroCard usage on PATH. The hurdles are entirely political, but the advantages to the riders are clear.
BTW for those of us of a certain age. A notice posted at Penn in 1966 or 7, LIRR and PRR Have filed to discontinue sale of certain joint tariff tickets. Back then you could buy a single fare ticket from the Philly Comuter district through the Jersey district out to the LI.
Current example of innovative ticketing: VRE and MARC have agreed to accept each others tickets for 'reverse' trips. Start on VRE change to outbound MARC in AM no extra, Brilliant! (technology none--just filling empty seats on backhauls)
The key here is developing the system into a "smart card" that could also be used as cash. Lots of banks want to implement such a technology, but if you have value on a "Smart Card" and the bank goes bust, it isn't a "deposit" and your money is lost. The Regional Transit farecard would be "backed" by transit rides the way the dollar used to be "backed" by gold.
But here is the risk. If the size of amount of money floating on the cards is large relative to transit budgets (because the smart card is used for general purchases), the transit authorities could book that revenue in year one to keep the fare down, give out big raises, bonuses, perks, etc. Then, as values are drawn down, they'd have to make good on transit rides without any more revenues.
Can polticians be trusted to ignore a temptation like that.
[Lots of banks want to implement such a technology, but if you have value on a "Smart Card" and the bank goes bust, it isn't a "deposit" and your money is lost. ]
Thats what FDIC is for up to $100k. Also those cards are developed not by banks but rather some interagency institution. One of the products what comes to mind is Visa Electron.
My point was especially if this farecard were to become a form of regional currency let financial institutions do it. MTA's goal is to move people around, not provide financial services.
Arti
The key here is developing the system into a "smart card" that could also be used as cash. Lots of banks want to implement such a technology, but if you have value on a "Smart Card" and the bank goes bust, it isn't a "deposit" and your money is lost. The Regional Transit farecard would be "backed" by transit rides the way the dollar used to be "backed" by gold.
But here is the risk. If the size of amount of money floating on the cards is large relative to transit budgets (because the smart card is used for general purchases), the transit authorities could book that revenue in year one to keep the fare down, give out big raises, bonuses, perks, etc. Then, as values are drawn down, they'd have to make good on transit rides without any more revenues.
Can polticians be trusted to ignore a temptation like that?
They should include SEPTA and WMATA as well. It would save the business travels some space in their wallets. If they are smart, they will use the WMATA SmarTrip since that works well and work their way north.
Why are New Yorkers considering a joint venture w/ PATH and NJT? I thought New Yorkers believed they will fall into the void if they cross the Hudson.
An Ad for the Cartoon Network for a Show called I think "Sheep in
Public" or something like that, shows a Cartoon Sheep standing on a crowded platform waiting for a train and you see the bottom half of the front a "train" coming in it looks like a Trolly or light rail or some kind does anyone know where it is?
Judging from the roadbed, it looks like a rubber-tire & steel rail system. Looking at the car body, I'd say Paris. It does not look American or Canadian.
Joe C
You're correct! It's a rubber-tire/rail metro system from Paris France. I've seen it and the carbody looks like a European toy train.
Dan
It is a Metro train from Paris, France.
And in the Chock-full-o-nuts heaven and earth ad which shows coffee in the heaven part and subway commuters in the earth part, that is a Piccadilly Line train on the London Underground.
I just found this in the October 30 issue of Chemical and Engineering News (p 88):
The American Institute of Chemical Engineers used the world series to point out improvements to baseball brought about by chemical engineering. Their list, verbatim:
cleated shoes
breathable uniforms
batting helmets
catcher's equipment
bat tar
bats
plastic stadium seats
natural grass infields (?? [my question marks] )
beer and soda and their containers
Metrocards (for the subway)
I had a chance to ride on the 7 twice two weeks ago, once on Tuesday night to Game 3 of the Subway Series at Shea, then again on Thursday with Wayne and Peggy on our excursion. Much to my surprise, I noticed that a number of R-36s had had their original doors replaced with mainline door leaves. The windows on the original door leaves line up with the picture windows on the car sides in the same manner as the windows on the R-32s and R-38s, as well as the original doors on the R-40s and R-42s. The windows on the replacement leaves are set higher up as they are on other Redbirds and do not line up with the picture windows. It seemed that most of the 9400-series cars still had their original leaves, as did the single R-33s. Luckily, they didn't seem to intermix cars of different door leaves in the same train; either all cars in any given train had original leaves or they all had replacement leaves. Any given car had either all original or all replacement door leaves. The replacement leaves had a darker red shade than the rest of the car they were installed in.
Does anyone have any idea as to what brought this on?
Speaking of new doors, East New York is starting to put in some new upper door tracks on the storm and side doors. There's some nice sliding on those. Quiet too.
running on...
The reason is The R36 cars GE ONLY Have the "new door leaves" are becauae those cars were rebuilt in Coney island and 207th street all GE R36 cars have them except for 9558 9559 9652 9653 9730 9731 9747 9766 9767. No I didnt forget 9746 this is the only pair that has 1 car with new door leaves and 1 car with old door leaves very strange.
Maybe that's their way of removing the doors from the mainline Redbirds before they go on their final tri...uh, voyage, to the bottom of the sea????
Yes, a number of the R-33 have these windows. I can't definitely tell you why this is so, but I do rememebr seeing some of the cars using the mainline doors with higher, smaller windows for at least about 3 or 4 years now. I used to ride the 7 frequently and noticed this a few years ago in college.
In the trains I've seen also, all of the cars used either large/low or small/high-windowed doors and all trains used only cars with one kind of window. The only exception to this are the single R-33s, which were sometimes still equipped with the larger and higher door-windows. I do not remember noticing a different shad of paint on these door.
Will they be able to install the "door sensors" on the R-36 WFs that are now standard on al the stainless steel subway cars? The issue of these door sensors was in the news a few months ago when there was a series of dragging incidents.
Most of the redirds are going to be scrapped when the R-142s are in service in large numbers. Since the Flushing redirds, according to a recent post here, have the second-best reliability rating of all NYCT car types, they should probably not be scrapped (except for the non-airconditioned R-33 singles). So if the mainline redirds are scrapped but the Flushing R-36s are kept in service (not necessarily on the 7), they will need to have the door sensors instaled to allay safety concerns.
Could the observed replacement of doors be connected with this?
Wouldn't it be a great idea if they setup a train station for the Roosevelt Field mall routing it through the old ROW that exists now going across Stewart Ave, past the yard there, then past the old Clinton Ave station and the meeting up with the Hempstead line. Or they could built the station at the rail yard and then build an aerial walkway to the far end of the mall. This way the people who work around the area could use the LIRR to shop and get to work. What a thought......
Wouldn't it be a great idea if they setup a train station for the Roosevelt Field mall routing it through the old ROW that exists
now going across Stewart Ave, past the yard there, then past the old Clinton Ave station and the meeting up with the Hempstead line. Or they could built the station at the rail yard and then build an aerial walkway to the far end of the mall. This way the people who work around the area could use the LIRR to shop and get to work. What a thought......
I suppose it's possible, but not practical. Either the old Garden City Secondary would have to be electrified - definitely not a cheap proposition - or a diesel shuttle from the Hempstead line would be needed. Even the shuttle idea would require some significant track upgrades. Any walkway at the R.F. end would have to be lengthy, probably 1,000 feet or more if you extend it from the existing yard. You're probably talking several million dollars just in construction expenses for a demand that may not exist.
In my little fantasy world, I'd always thought that perhaps a station on the Main Line between Mineola and Carle Place with a connection to the mall as well as the office buildings and shopping centers on Old Country Road via an elevated moving sidewalk (or even a people mover like you have at some airports like Orlando) would be useful.
CG
My fantasy would have your connection plus a connection to the Garden City Secondary line, with a big loop inbetween, connecting Roosevelt Field, The Source Mall, Merchants Concourse, Hofstra, Nassau Community College, Nassau Coliseum and the Mitchel Field area (Cradle of Aviation Museum). While we're at it, might as well restore the connection with the West Hempstead branch (which passes by the County Seat buildings) to Mineola as well as the Central Line from Garden City to Bethpage. This way, just about anyone in Nassau County could get to the "Nassau Hub" area by rail. Oops, I've got to get going; there's a crowd of of NIMBY's trying to break down my door right now! :-)
Right, NIMBY alert ... those NIMBYs in Garden City wouldn't tollerate it, but it's a good idea just the same.
I'm wondering out laud if the reason the steam engine group moved away was because of NIMBYs ... I could see them using the old ROW to run their engine back & forth.
Mr t__:^)
How do the emergency brakes on a MBTA subway train work?
It seems that there is a ring on a bar under it. Pull ring and pull bar down? Note there is a sign that saids "Emergency brake and end door unlock".
Q -How do the emergency brakes on a MBTA subway train work?
It seems that there is a ring on a bar under it. Pull ring and pull bar down? Note there is a sign that saids "Emergency brake and end door unlock".
A - The ring is so you can get the bar in position (out of the wall) to use it. When you pull the bar down, it: a. opens an air valve and "dumps the train." b. mechanically pulls a latch to unlock the end door. The outside handle on the adjacent car doesn't lock, only the inside.
Dumping the air, by the way, will definately bring an angry motorman and probably a T cop to your beck and call, so use this power wisely!
Dick
Q -How do the emergency brakes on a MBTA subway train work?
It seems that there is a ring on a bar under it. Pull ring and pull bar down? Note there is a sign that saids "Emergency brake and end door unlock".
A - The ring is so you can get the bar in position (out of the wall) to use it. When you pull the bar down, it: a. opens an air valve and "dumps the train." b. mechanically pulls a latch to unlock the end door. The outside handle on the adjacent car doesn't lock, only the inside.
Dumping the air, by the way, will definately bring an angry motorman and probably a T cop to your beck and call, so use this power wisely!
Dick
what trains must a person take to get to transit Tech High School?
in my situation I am at 149 St-Grand Concourse. What train do i take from there?
Take the 2,4, or 5 to Fulton St. Transfer is available to the J to Norwood Av, follow by a walk down a couple blocks. Or you can change to the A to Euclid and walk up about three blocks to the school.
Train#1902Mike
I heard this am that Pelham's 142 went out of service due to brake problems. Any news?
The Yankees train was running on the 2 Monday just before midnight and again this am.
I don't know about that but I did see a 2nd set of R142As on the Pelham today (cars 7261 - 7270)
I give up on the R 142's......
R-142's are o.k. R-142A is giving the problem. I wonder Why the R-142A is giving out like that? its serious.
Hey I was on that R142A train today (cars 7261-7270) all the way to 138- 3 Ave their the train was held up for a while and then the conductor announced that the train was out of service due to mechanical problems so passengers were discharge from the train and had to wait for the local across the platform. I was gonna see how many M.P.H. could it due that R142A on the express track.
Shortly after midnight last night I saw a 142 on the downtown 6 at 33rd St, making simulated stops (doors opening on other side, etc.).
I saw one heading uptown at 33rd street around 7:30 PM.
Arti
At Pelham they were saying door Problems I don't know for sure since I was not on the R142A yesterday. However today I was on the train and the doors in car 7267 did not open at 51 Street this morning. I picked up a R.C.I at Brooklyn Bridge and he did not know the cause of the problem. We did keep the train in service to Pelham then it was taken out of service for R142A School car.
Does anyone know the total amount of R-142 cars that are in the TA yards to date?
Did you look at the R142 delivery page?
-dave
Does anyone have an idea of how many more cars can be stored before the TA runs out if storage and must either scrap some Redbirds or the the plants to hold up delivery?
Please visit Bushlite.net. It is hilarious.
Dan
nyrail.cjb.net
Here's an issue that some sub talkers may be able to throw some light on. On the Moscow Metro's home page there's a link to site on current and historical Metro cars. This includes, at http://www.metro.ru/cars/german-c/, a page which, while it is in Russian cyrillic and therefore can't be read by me, appears to be about the transfer of Berlin U Bahn Seimens and other cars to the Moscow Metro. The date of this transfer would appear to be in the 1940's and, if one of the accompanying photos is any guide, the cars may have been expropriated, for want of a better word, during the Soviet occupation of Berlin. I assume that the gauge of the Moscow Metro is five feet, so the cars would have had to have been regauged.
Can anyone shed any further light on this?
The article says that 120 U-Bahn cars were transfewred in summer of 1945 from the Soviet part of Berlin to Moscow and Poland. To operate the U-Bahn they used modified (wide trucks) streetcars with platform extenders.
The article says nothing about trucks but I would guess they replaced the trucks with Russian gauga (1520mm)
Arti
These were the type C cars which were confiscated from Germany after WWII.
Thanks to you and Arti for the information
120 C cars (wide profile, built 1926-30) went to Moscow as reparations in 1945, where some were rebuilt as trailers. They were withdrawn in 1965-66; in Berlin the C-class ran until 1975.
According to the article in Russian some of them were sent to Poland to serve on suburban lines.
Arti
Are you sure those weren't the Berlin S-Bahn cars? I never heard of U-Bahn cars in Poland, but a lot of S-Bahn cars from the 1920s had pantographs mounted on the roofs and were used in Warsaw and Gdansk commuter services for many years. In the USSR some ran after WWII Moscow-Domodedovo and Tallinn-Paskull.
There is a way to translate this web page into English. Under the Altavista (www.altavista.com) search engine web page, there is Babel fish translator, which when typing the web address and click the selection translate Russian to English.
About a couple of weeks ago, while some work in front of my house a R62A "3" train passed in front of my house. I looked as the train cruised by when the last car had graffitti on the side. I mean big time 70's style graffitti. I was down on street level and far enough not to catch the car # but saw the graffitti. I tried to see if this train would make a return trip but it did not. Thats the closest Ive seen big time graffitti on a subway car.
Train#1903Mike
I guess the die-hards still TRY and tag the trains, but since you didn't see it return, then NYCT's 0-tolerance policy must have kicked in and the train was probably ordered out of service for cleaning.
wayne
They should have a train with 70's style graffitti down at the transit museum. It would help paint an accurate picture of the MTA's history and the little kiddies could see what a real graffitti train looks like. They could fill the inside with 70's ads and have a video kiosk playing the opening to "Suturday Night Feaver".
[They should have a train with 70's style graffitti down at the transit museum]
I say let's not have a train with 70's style graffitti at the Transit Museum. We don't want to give a new generation ideas.
Bill "Newkirk"
Not a bad idea. This generation of trains should be the bland silver and gray - as said in my earlier post - but why not? How about the 70s map while we're at it - early 70s with each line getting its own color.
Hmmm... maybe they should order ALOT of glass and metal walls and get that into effect for Scratchiti. They'll probably need to seat covers too.
running on...
Well lately, Ive been seeing washed out graffitti markings on the sides of the R46's.
Train#1904Mike
I am so sickened by all these 70s & scratchiti forms of graffiti in our subway system. There are always some jerk out there that are setting bad examples for our next generation. Over the weekend I was watching MTV's Real World (please kill me!) and MTV started doing these ads for various artists... via subway scratchiti! The promos would show the artists' names etched on what appeared to be R32 (E) side windows, one artist after another. This certainly doesn't do anything to help MTA's 0-tolerance policy, especially on a channel that target young audiences. What I like to know is, WHAT ARE THEY THINKING????
Sadly this year, I've witnessed 2 scratchitiers do their stuff on the (7). The first one was white male with 2 other white late-teens/early-20s men all in heavy-padded black jackets. The second was 2 weeks ago by a big white male mid-20s but he looked like your typical everyday commuter... until he took out his key (?) or some metallic object.
The people who design the scratchiti TV spots are in general those who see stuff like that as a form of art, the same way Norman Mailer did that book back in the 1970s lauding the work of the graffiti artists on the subways. And like Mr. Mailer, their goal in life is to become rich enough through their TV ads so they never have to ride the subways again and have to look at the actual consequences of that stuff five days a week, 50 weeks a year.
I actually saw an art professor give a presentation on '70s "subway art" to his class, complete with a video and guest speaker, who was apparently a veteran of the subway art scene. There's nothing like encouraging creativity!
After which he probably took Metro North back to his house, no doubt.
or the LIAR
I think these are "R"s that lay up down on 4th Avenue north of 59th Street; there has been some tagging going on there of late.
They try their best to clean it up as soon as it appears; more power to them.
wayne
these guys are trying very hard to vandalize property. two days ago i road an R-68 N train (5501 i think) that had residue left over from 70's bigtime graffitti. its a good thing that the MTA has 0 tolerance on this thing. its horrible to see graffitti on these trains. there should be higher security at the yards.
I would guess whoever did it is either an aging tagger with "graffiti nostalga" for the bygone days of the 70s and early 80s, or one of our developing yutes with a dream that the MTA will get lax again and they can become the "Taki 183" of the 21st Century -- the artist who trailblazes a new era of spraypainted murals on subway trains. Which is why the MTA has to be ever-vigilent to clean those things ASAP, so the taggers get the idea quickly that all the work they went though was for nothing.
I think if the graffitti community organized themselves they could defeat the MTA.
The MTA should take another route. Stealing from WW1 ship camoflague they should paint all the subway cars in a "razzle dazzle" multi coloured paint scheeme what looks sorta like graffitti, but it really just abstract art (ie no words or letters). If anybody did try to tag a train nobody would notice. The subway cars would hide in palin sight. As for who paints the trains that would be done by hiring former talented 70's graffitti artists who now desperatly need real jobs.
How dare you even mention that !!!!
Spoken like a true non-resident
Peace,
ANDEE
No, either tongue-in-cheek, or the idiot we have learned he is.
-Hank
Why am I an idiot for being open minded. Unlike some people I see some graffitti as art and I am often impressed in the time, effort and skill that went into some of the pieces. When my feinds family bought a building for a restaurant one of the building had some large pieces of graffitti art including a very large Smurf. I am not condoning the destruction of private property and all graffitti that does so is wrong, however I will not close my eyes to the fact that some graffitti pieces are very cool.
In abandonned locations (such as the Paulins Kill Viaduct) graffitti art can turn the location into a phsycodelic wonderland. Most MTA trains are a dull stainless steel that could desperatly use a splash of colour. Look at what they do in that Europe place everyone is always touting about.
The MTA can continue striving for that "one city, one look" ideal and try to sweep their graffitti covered past under the rug or they they could they could wrap multi-coloured trains and completely defeat the graffitti artists' purpose to be "different".
The 70's graffitti train is a part of MTA history and good or bad they should acknowledge it, if not on special trains then at the Transit Museum. I do not like revisionist history.
Hey now, let the debate continue! Just like the election we will never come to conclusion on this subject. ART or CRIME.
If these murals were posted up in a museum, I assume most everybody would call this art. Posted on our beloved subway cars our objective points of view are thrown out and we now see this as vandalism. Again it is not the painting that is the problem but the location of the paintings.
Canvas painting in a museum would be considered art, the same painting on the side of an R62A#3 considered vandalism.
I for one love this discussion, let's take the gloves off and recount those ballots in Florida.
Later,
Why do you say ART or CRIME. It is usually ART AND CRIME. The 2 are not exclusive events. However not all graffitti is crime. Painting stuff in truely abandonned locations like the Paulins Kill is not a crime. I say if graffitti can be good art why can't the MTA have a programme to have its trains wrapped or painted in genuine or faux graffitti art.
It has been said in another part of this thread, but the main problem with the graffiti isn't the graffiti - it's being able to tell where you're going. Personally, my opinion is this. I agree that some graffiti art is mass awesome. However, in my opinion, the bland and boring gray, while bland and boring, has given the subway a more upmarket look. Wasn't it true that in the 70s a lot of people who ride the subway now looked down on it as being "what all those ruffians ride"? The place was stereotyped (fairly or unfairly) as a haven for crooks. Now obvioulsy that wasn't all true to begin with, but that stereotype is much gone....so here's my point.
The subways should be kept the bland gray because it actually helps to attract ridership. If graffitists choose to tag stations in areas that upper-west side types would never ride (14th St/Canarsie anyone?) then by all means leave the stations that way. But not the trains.
The Budapest Metro usually has clean and well-painted trains. They are uniform in appearance. But the stations! My oh my, there are stations (especially on the M2) where there is not a square inch of concrete that hasn't been sprayed!
The trains need to look good...the stations shoyuld be on an individual basis. 72nd on the 1/2/3/9? No way. Woodlawn on the 4? Yeah sure why not.
<...the stations shoyuld be on an individual basis. 72nd on the 1/2/3/9? No way. Woodlawn on the 4? Yeah sure why not. >>
I need some more clarification on this. Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way. So I am responding to the way I read it.
Does that mean only people on the Upper West Side want (or deserve) grafitti-free stations? I'm from the Bronx and do not want to see grafitti in any of the stations I use. I feel that it looks awful no matter how "talented" the piece is. I feel that it degrades the area and the station I use. I'm sure there are people who live in other boroughs and neighborhoods that feel the same way. I personally feel that since the Upper West Side crowd make up a large part of those people who tend to defend people who do grafitti, maybe they should be the ones that should see it the most often. After all, if they believe it to be art, then there is nothing wrong with a little art to decorate their station.
Let ARTS FOR TRANSIT make the decisions as to what "ART" should be decorating our stations and our trains.
wayne!
SUPPORT OUR NYC ARTS FOR TRANSIT PROGRAM
What is Arts For Transit?
Is there a website for the organization?
Arts for transit is the arm of the MTA responsible for art in their stations. They have a section on the MTA's website.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heres a link,
ARTS FOR TRANSIT
PEACE,
ANDEE
>>>Woodlawn on the 4? Yeah sure why not. <<<
Because speaking as someone who lives in that area I would not want it!
Peace,
ANDEE
The crime is not the art but the private or public property that it is done on. If these people bought a $ 1000.00 canvas to erect a mural to post up on a museum wall. Would you consider that crime?
If the same people broke into one of the layups around town only to produce the same mural on the side of one of the MTA's cars, would you consider that crime?
Graffiti's value as art is dubious when the A) Windows B) Route Signs and C) Subway Maps are completely sprayed over, which is the way the situation was in the 1970s and early 80s when the cultural crowd that never rode the subways on a regular basis were praising the spray painters to high heaven.
But if you opaque everthing with Krylon, that makes it impossible to tell what station you're arriving at, what train is sitting at the platform as you make a mad dash downstairs (N or R, E or F, 4 or 5, etc.) and what route or transfer point you need to use if you're not a veteran of the system who knows every route.
There was even a book that came out back in 1984 called SUBWAY ART.
Somehow, a photographer gained the trust of all the magor taggers of the time and he was allowed to photograph them doing their works.
It was almost like one big National Geographic article. The law was so lax that there are photographs of kids drinking out of 40 oz beer bottles and smoking joints. No black bars across the eyes either. The faces of each artist was easily recognizable. One even posed for his photo reclining on a third rail.
I AGREE it is an art depending on where it is. they do have a krylon art museum in Long Island City Queens where it is considered art. for some reason, these low lives are ether ruthless or stupid to not know where art should be placed. they should know by now that this is MTA-government property and not their gangsta property. now that mylar is coming out, i hope they get the message.
How about painting your house and car like that !!!!
How about painting your house and car like that !!!!
Mike lives in Haddonfield. Several years ago a homeowner there painted his house purple and all hell broke loose.
Only if I get to paint 'FU-- MARS! and Santa Claus on the windsheild. The side windows get Alfred E. Neumann, and the house just gets randomly placed splatters. It's not revisionist history. We don't keep mass crematoriums around, do we? It's part of history.
-Hank
my cousin's house is painted desert camouflage
no joke - swashes of beige, brown, and small black and white specks
Everybody around him moved away. There was also a guy who lived on Kings Highway and as an act of protest he put neon splotches all over his door when a state delegation was in town. The Borough parked a moving van in front of his house.
1) Subway trains are a blank canvas.
2) A lot of graffitti is curce words, scralled letters or ramdom splotches.
If the TA adopted a graffitti design for some of its cars.
1) It would be real art not curses.
2) It would probably appeal to many of the artsy types who live in NYC.
3) Bad graffitti would not show up on it.
4) The trains would no longer be a blank canvas.
5) The taggers would no longer be origional, rebel, non-conformists and would probably loose interest in painting trains.
I dunno. I did my first apartment in colors borrowed from Hoyt-Schermerhorn, B'way-Lafayette (the old colors) and Nostrand IND.
Mike go see the Phun Phactory (take the #7 to 45 Road Court Square) in Long Island City for an exhibit of this art form; this work is correctly done and done so under the proper auspices; it may bring back bad memories of floridly painted trains to some but it is quite impressive to behold. You can also view it from the #7 train as it mounts the roller-coaster curve between HP and 45th Road stations. You can't miss it.
wayne
[In abandonned locations (such as the Paulins Kill Viaduct)
Where is this Paulins Kill Viaduct ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Where is this Paulins Kill Viaduct ?
It's part of the Lackawanna cutoff in northern Warren County near Delaware Water Gap. The Cutoff crosses the Delaware River where I-80 westbound meets the river and turns north.
Its right off of NJ 92 west of Blairstown.
I can hear Lt. Garber now: "You're a sick man, Rico."
I saw an R10 #3124 to be exact that looked exactly like that. There were so many layers of graffitti on it you couldn't tell one tag from the other and they all blended together.
wayne
I remember seeing a present-day Redbird back in 1980 which appeared to have had a whole can of paint just splattered all over its side. Everything was obliterated - car sides, windows, you name it. UGH! Remember Judy Carne on Laugh-in when she used to say "Sock it to me!"? This car looked as if it had said that. Ker-splat!
One of the more memorable experiences with full-tilt graffitti occurred in early spring of 1973 when the R44's were fairly new to the "F". I would get on at 179th Street, head for a window seat on the opposite side of the car (away from the open doors) and plop myself down. One day I did this as usual, busied myself with the paper for a bit, tried to doze off then we were announced for Union Turnpike (must have slept thru Parsons') and I looked up and out the window and to my surprise, I saw NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. Solid black. The train was crowding up and we moved on. Then we got to 71st Avenue and stopped again (the station was still incandescent) and I looked out again and again saw nothing. This got me wondering. I knew for sure we were in a station, and soon I put two and two together. I knew it had to be a monstrosity, a massive mural or more! And on an R44! The car number, I had noted, was #124 (today's #5268). I was getting very curious as to what this really was. At Lexington, I got off and THERE IT WAS. Seventy-five feet long, and better than seven feet high, in fact, it covered the entire side and extended in blobs onto the car roof. It was the work of KILLER I, out of Queens, whose name I had seen on dozens of other cars.
This information is from my graffitti sighting journal that I kept from late 1972 to mid-1974:
It had a black background, with yellow letters shaded to orange, then red, bordered in orange, highlighted with copper, light blue, white, and grey. It also featured a nasty cartoon face with a Rolling-stones type tongue, a gallows (with a swinging corpse), a heart with a bleeding dagger through it, a Godzilla-type monster stomping on cars, buses and people... The car number was stylized in the lower left hand corner of the car body (as was the habit of many the Queens graffitti artists back then) It was unbelievable.
You should have seen what they did to Slant R40 #4412-4413 and #4332-4333! "...And a torso even more so!" (Groucho Marx)
wayne
Wait a minute, here. Wayne, am I reading this correctly? You entered a subway car -- dozed off -- and when you awoke, the car was covered with a graffiti mural???
If that's the case: Man, some of those guys work FAST!!!
BMTman
No. When I got on the train at 179th Street, I entered the train from the side OPPOSITE where the mural was placed, so I did NOT see the mural, which was no doubt there already. I did not realize that it was there initially; I figured that out after having been unable to see out of the window. This car was the fifth car in the train.
sorry for the confusion
wayne
I'll bet you wouldn't have dozed off on an R-6/7 F train - not with the all the sounds those cars gave off.:-)
As if there wasn't enough razor wire already.
During our excursion two weeks ago, we went up to Bedford Park Blvd. on the 4, which overlooks Concourse Yard (or is it Woodlawn Yard?) in the hope of getting a glimpse of the R-62s which were damaged in that collision on the middle track. There is razor wire everywhere - on the fence tops, even above the station canopy on the southbound size. Wayne took one look at all that razor wire and said, "They DO NOT want ANYONE in that yard!"
The sad thing is that (if this hasn't already happened) sooner or later, someone is going to evade the various deterrents, get in, get seriously hurt, and sue Transit and/or the city for their injuries. What's even sadder is with all the PC morons they find for juries, they'd win, too. I haven't missed that aspect of NYC at all.
There were no r68s 1n the seventies. IIRC that number is r46, which look like r68s and run on the r
Why does the Pelham Parkway Station on the 2 and 5 lines only have light bulbs and not florescent lighting?
Don't know - probably they haven't gotten round to replacing the fixtures yet. I believe there is flourescent light in the mezzanine and station-house, as well as the stairwells.
Middletown Road on the #6 line is another one with bulbs. So is Bedford Park on the #4 but only outside the platform sheds. I like the old lights.
wayne
Pelham Parkway's station houses (it does have two, one of which is only open during AM rush hours) do have flourescent lights and it has escolators. But it is odd that Pelham is the only stop on the White Plains Road line without flourescents on the platforms. While fixtures were being assembled piece by piece at the other stations, nothing happened at Pelham.
The Transportation Bond Act does not refer specifically to a Second Avenue Subway. It just mentions rapid transit. Is there a legal or political reason for this?
It's a moot point now.
The R142's....when is the testing on the 5 line going to begin?
What will they do with the R142's after they "kick the redbirds" out?
Will they go on the rest of the A division?
The "testing" phase is over, isn't it?
R-142s will begin to replace the redbirds on the #2 line, and R-142As will begin to replace the cars on the #6 line.
When the #2 line is running all R-142s, then subsequent deliveries will be placed in service on the #5.
At least that is what I think has been said. Corrections are welcome.
so the 4's will keep the R62's?
That and maybe an additional two sets of Redbirds due to that collision.
Train#1905Mike
rumor is that when R-142's come in on the 2 they are also getting them on the 5 simultaneously. the 5 has 42 year old redbirds. they have to go.
While riding the Oyster Bay line today I always notice this siding off of the southbound track just south of the Roslyn station.
What was this siding once used for?
Old track maps show that the siding could handle 30 cars and serviced warehouses for the following companies: Seboard Pools, Harris Flooring Co., Impact Extrusions and Nassau Grain Co.
[... and Nassau Grain Co.]
That must be why they stopped using it, i.e. they were only getting chicken feed out of it ;-)
Mr t
Was on a Queens bound 7X at around 4:45pm just before Woodside, when I saw a Redbird going westbound with Yankee and Met logo. Was this the subway series 7 train?
Rode on it yesterday! From Queensborough to 74th/Broadway.
Where and when can I expect to pick up the Subway Series 4 in the Mid-Afternoon?
>>>Where and when can I expect to pick up the Subway Series 4 in the Mid-Afternoon? <<<
Look for it on the 2. Running on the 142 schedule that was previously posted here.
Peace,
ANDEE
Today I had an excellent ride on the E train, hitting 40+ before 71/Continental, in the stretch between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza, and the 53rd street tubes (on an R46).
I also rode the J from Broad Street to Jamaica Center. I walked over from WTC to Broad Street station and there were alot of closed entries. The only open one I could find was at Broad and Wall. Why so many closed exits?
Had a nice ride on the J train, but what is that track area on the south side of Essex? Chambers was in decrepid condition. There one person waiting at Bowery. I saw they workers going work in that station. Why not fix up Chambers instead since it is busier?
The J ride across the Willy B was slow but what a view!
Also nice express run from Marcy to Myrtle.
Also bypassed a few stations that were being fixed up. All in all a nice ride, but a long one, almost an hour.
After getting to Jamaica center I took another E (this time an R32) back to Manhattan, another fast ride.
Then the 7X back home, nice fast ride back. Lately I've been having slowpoke T/O's on the 7, nice to have a fast one.
"but what is that track area on the south side of Essex?"
I think you are referring to the old underground trolley terminal!
If I recall correctly, if you're coming from the WTC, the northernmost entry to Broad St. station is at the corner of Broad & Wall. The stairs that you might have seen under construction at the corner of Cedar & Nassau aren't for the subway specifically, they lead into the big Chase bank branch under Chase Manhattan Plaza. There is a passage from 'down there' to the Broad St. station along the edge of Nassau St. but I wouldn't call that a subway entrance.
Funny you did 40+ there are at least two 30mph Grade Timers on that run and one 25 (I'm not sure of the 25). There are two curves they slapped in GT's for that I don't think should be there. They are slight curves compared to other places.
I notice when I'm on the 7 Queens bound going through the Steinway tubes there is this shift in track near the Queens end. Is this due to
uneven alighnment of the tunnel?
Two thoughts on this one. First one must rememberthat the tunnels were not designed for rapid transit service but for streetcars, thus the shift may occur at the junction of the original and later construction. More likely is the fact that the two stations on the Queens end are outside platforms and the track alignment must adjust to bring the two trackways together for these stations after the run under the river in separate tubes.
My guess is that there was a slight alignment error when the south tube was built.
In all my 50's pics, before that hotel was built over the west end of the "9th Ave. Pit" I could see a large descending door thing positioned ofer the Hudson Portholes. There appeared to be 2 seperate sections and were attached to a pully and cable system. They look like flood doors that would be lowered to prevend a Hudson Tube flood from flooding Penn Station and the East River Tubes. Is this a correct assessment? Are they still there? Are/Were there flood doors over the East River Tubes?
There are flood doors on the east end, but I don't think they're useable anymore.
Is Penn Station lower than the river tubes?
The Penn Station tracks and platforms is lower than the river. If the tubes flooded somwhow the water would go on to full penn station and the East Riven tubes. Or if the Hudson river overflowed they could prevent the tunnels from flooding.
[The Penn Station tracks and platforms is lower than the river.]
I never thought about that before. It sounds correct since the Penn Station track level is 3 levels below the street (Amtrack/NJT level, LIRR level, track level), and looking out to the Hudson River from my office here at Penn Plaza, sea level doesn't seem to be that much lower than street level.
A parolee and accomplice shot a passenger fatally during a robbery attempt at 2:48 AM Wednesday as the northbound 2 train approached the Wall Street station. They had just robbed another passenger. The perps were apprehended. Stories in the Times and Daily News.
The article said that both victims were able to get to the next car and alearted the conductor who was able to promptly broadcast a description of the suspect. an action which led to his capture. Sounds like a score for ToPTO.
A score for intercoms and cameras, not TwoPTO.
I heard Hillary and the rest of the dumb city residents who voted for her want the parolee rehabilitated and given another chance in society.
According to the Post the Bond act was rejected by voters, I guess we have to wait longer for the 2nd ave Subway
If anything, this could make the wait shorter.
The bond act would not only put us in debt and farther from the goal of the subway, but it would completely kill credibility for the subway boosters as the THIRD failed Second Avenue Bond Act.
Knowing what we know now, I won't even believe the Second Avenue Subway will happen when they start digging. Not until the inaugural train rolls on the tracks.
Knowing what we know now, I won't even believe the Second Avenue Subway will happen when they start digging. Not until the inaugural train rolls on the tracks.
Didn't they start digging nearly 30 years ago?
-- Ed Sachs
That's why?
That's why I say that we shouldn't believe digging.
I haven't seen the geographical breakdown yet, but the bond act was probably defeated by (a) suburban voters who are already fed up with there being an MTA surcharge on their phone bills and a portion of tolls going for transit; and (b) people made cynical by the results of the previous bond issue that resulted in two filled-up holes under Second Avenue.
According to a frequently played commercial, this bond act would have benefitted motorists as well. That's the one where the woman stuck in traffic amid sound effects of horns honking is describing it as "unsafe..boring..a waste of time". Funny how she doesn't curse once- yeah, I know, it's a radio commercial!
I saved the issue of the defunct LONG ISLAND PRESS that detailed how the disastrous ice storm of December 1973 completely wiped out LIRR service. One weary commuter says to a reporter, "They're [the railroad] getting back at us for killing the bond issue."
Maybe a little far-fetched, but you can be sure that the next time there's a large service disruption, the shouts will start: "We should've voted for the bond issue!"
...are now available at my site for download. The catch is you can only have one set of cars on the layout at a time. In other words, you can't have R1-9 cars on the same layout as the R44/46 cars.
OK, I've finally found the mystery font! I happened to be in a store waitin in line, and I noticed the Fitness Magazine, which had an article called "Diet IQ", and I immediately recognized the "Q" as the one they use on rollsigns and map or schedule bullets. I looked in the magazine, and this font was everywhere, and the other characters matched (1, 2, J & R) I called them up, and after being forwarede a few times, I got someone in Production dept. who knew the name of the font.
In the gif below, look at lines 5, 7 and 9. (medium, bold and super. The others are light and regular, and are slightly different, as well as the italic versions). Notice, the 1 is the same as Helvetica, and the 2 and R are the same as Franklin Gothic, just as I had been saying.
So the medium or bold is what we see used on signs that do not use Helvetica. This is what R68's "5200" plaque should be done in, not Arial.
Only thing; I wanted to download it, but this site charges $169!
So what made the TA stop using Franklin Gothic in favor of Helvetica? The older font looks better on signs that still have it. The older font was unusual, but nice. We see Helvetica everywhere.
I don't think the MTA ever used Franklin Gothic, because the 1 has a bottom serif on it (like the one you see now in Times Roman), and I don't recall ever seeing that on MTA maps or signs. They did use the condensed versions of Helvetica or Akzidenz in the past.
They pretty much alternate between Helvetica and Akzidenz, and sometimes the character in the bullet will be Akzidenz while the text is Helvetica. Can be hard to tell, since they look so similar with the exception of a few characters.
Oh, it's called Akzidenz. I don't now why, but I thought it looked distinctive, mostly the R, S, 2 and 5, from Helvetica. I still see signs in Akzidenz, but it looks like Helvetica is replacing it.
I didn't notice any difference in the 5.
On the R-32/32, R-40 and R-68 side signs, the new replacements have been with Helvetica Bold. I noticed this back when the 68's were still on the Q. And when there's an 32 on the R, you can see this. I see the Helv. "R" on the 46 front signs as well. (station/platform signs use Helv. as well, and I'm not sure if they ever used AkzGr., because I'm only recently taking notice of this). Now on the 42's the AkzGr. "J" (backwards "L") has been replaced by a Helvetica J, (candycane) but the latter is used with the AkzGr characters on the maps, schedule pamphlets, MVM station posters, etc. so this is just a modification of AG the TA has done, and some of these signs I think are like this, but it's hard to tell because these cars don't run on the Q or R. The 40/42 side signs always used the candycane J.
So it seems Helvetica is replacing Akzidenz Grotesk on signs, but on paper (maps, schedules, notices, posters), they are sticking firmly with AG. Like the person told me, it is supposed to be their
"corporate look".
Here are AG Medium and bold by themselves
I forgot to mention that on the IRT the reverse is happening. The redbird signs have AkzGr replacing Helv. R-62/a's are always AkzGr.
5200
coming next year to the
Ditmars Blvd, Astoria
Coney Island
Always knew the MTA used a Helvetica-like font that wasn't quite Helvetica.
My question is:
What is the font that the DOT uses on its green and whites? It's been in use on street signs since the vinyl sins firs began appearing in 1964. This font comes in both regular and condensed versions.
I've been using a similar font, Blue Highway, to simulate the DOT green and whites for my signs on...
www.forgotten-ny
but it's not QUITE the same. Blue Highway is the font you see on the big green signs on Interstates...
I was wondering what the street sign font was. It is like Helvetica, except that the R is like AkZidenz or franklin Gothic (straight leg). The Q, J and 2 are like Helv. IIRC. I forgot what the other differences with Helv., if any, were. The DOT probably just made it up or had some firm make it for them.
Hey, I've been wondering what and where I could find the interstate sign font. The distinctive characteristic of that one is that all of the large lowercase letters such as d, h, k, l and p have the slanted edges (usually only the t has this). The lowercase g is also distinctive.
Where can I find this font?
The Federal Highway Administration published a guide in 1979 specifying fonts for highway signs. I have the book around here somewhere, but I can't find it right now. You can read all about it at this site, though.
There's a great little Java applet called SignMaker at www.kurumi.com that lets you make your own signs :).
Thanks. BTW, The link points to http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/www.kurumi.com, which will give you an error message (you have to remove the reference to www.nycsubway.org)
To download the font from Font Bureau caosts $40
Also, one of the variants is probably the same font used on NYC street signs, only it's hard to tell, since lowercase letters are never used. (I was wrong' the "G" is not like Helvetica, but somewhat like Interstate)
Whoops... I forgot the http:// in the link. Not thinking today. Obviously, that should be www.kurumi.com; no more HTML for me today :)
>>>The Federal Highway Administration published a guide in 1979 specifying fonts for highway signs. I
have the book around here somewhere, but I can't find it right now. You can read all about it at this
site, though. <<
That gets you to the Font Bureau, which has a number of interesting fonts for sale. The one referred to here is called Interstate. It resembles both Blue Highway and the font used on NYC street signs to a great degree though it isn't QUITE the same (the S's are very different.) I've contacted them abt getting Interstate, but there are a couple of technical questions I have for them first. Thanks.
BTW, New York City DOT can be located here:
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dot/
They offer custom-made signs using the font I'm interested in, but alas, not the font itself.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Has the afternoon rush J schedule been altered? The 16:38 now leaves Broad at 16:40, and it's now a local east of Myrtle Ave. Have they cut Z service? The 16:38 used to be the first scheduled skip-stop in the afternoon.
Yes, the J line's PM rush skip-stop schedule has been altered. It is now:
Leaving Broad Street:
J- 5:00, :10, :20, :30, :40
Z- 4:55, 5:05, :15, :25, :35, :45
Why? Have they reduced the number of Z trains, or have they altered the schedule with the same number of trains?
Regardless of the schedule change, THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH TRAINS!!!!!!!!!!!
What they did is they turned the last J from a skip-stop train to an all stop train. The amount of Z trains remains the same. And they began PM skip-stop service 20 minutes later. Why the change? I dunno.
When the Willy Bridge re-opened after repair last year, I recall a note on this site saying the number of riders on the 'L' line had increased - they were diverted from the J for the rebuilding and stayed on the 'L'.
They must still be there as the 'L' service has increased at the expense of the 'J/M/Z' group of lines - check the PM inbound schedules for the 'L' and you can see the list of trains into 8th Ave - they have to leave again in 2-4 minutes so that gives you an idea of the PM outbound on the 'L'.
So it appears the J/M/Z have lost a few to compensate.
The L train seems to be a bit faster than the J/Z line in the time it takes for it to get from 8th Ave to Eastern Pkwy, which is where it sees alot more people get off to take the J/Z. And it always had so many trains running at rush hour.
The L line has always has a quick turnaround at 8th Ave. even before thw WB fix-up.
L trains departing 8th Ave. between the hours of 5 pm-6 pm operate at a 4 minute headway and have 15 departures between 5 and 6.
This ridership demographic change was temporary. Everything has returned to pre-Willy B closure patterns. I understand that the L has increased ridership in recent years but these riders aren't comimg from the J/M/Z line any more.
If there was a service cut in favor of the L over the J/M/Z, then it isn't justfied, unless the L is in a desperate need for more cars.
Did I miss something, but besides running for President Heypaul hasn't been seen by me in like a month. I'm starting to miss his antics.
Maybe he's moved on up to be vavpaul.
heypaul isn't running for President -- he's running for his life! ;-)
He's probably tired of all the off-topic posts.
Peace,
ANDEE
heypaul's in limbo; check out Graffiti Wall.
Well you can't SEE him here, but I did last week-end at 59th St, then there he was again at the Transit Museum. He also rode with a group of us to Coney Island where we ran into Trevor & SubBus as we left our train. The funny part was that he was carrying a Greyhound book.
Mr t__:^)
My only problem w/ this recent crackdown on off topic posts is that there has been nothing to replace them. The volume of posts over the last few dasy has been very light. I don't meet m(any) railfans up here and SubTalk is the only place I can have a conversation about trains and transit. On weekends its especially bad and if you discount all the poticical posts we've had a weekend volume for 5 days straight. I'd rather read an off topic post than no posts at all so if you want to eliminate off topic posts post more on topic posts. Please! I've already promised not to flood the board w/ my "summer series" lame posts so its up to all of you.
Thank you for listening.
Since a number of SubTalkers have expressed a preference to avoid using up our time opening off topic posts, some have expressed a desire to continue posting off topic posts and others have suggested that you take it elsewhere, we face a conundrum.
It has become apparent that you should establish a new message board. You will derive great joy from it, many SubTalkers will enjoy participating in it, and those who prefer to manage their time by reading a limited number of posts on the topics of subways, trolleys, light rail, trains, &c will be accommodated.
Such a message board already exists. It's called the Graffiti Wall, and can be found at www.NthWard.com/cgi-bin/graffiti.cgi.
The Graffiti Wall could use the extra traffic, and I'm sure Dave would be happy to see SubTalk get back to transit topics. Works out well for everybody, huh?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yes, you hadn't promoted that for that purpose earlier.
I started the Off Subtalk that didn't catch on. I think maybe it would have caught on OVER TIME, but I doubt it.
Mike, One of the things you'll discover by LISTENING here are all the other sites available. I have bookmarks, thanks to many SubTalkers, of transit sites all over the country, e.g. NH (mostly steam group), TA web site, Boston group, IRM, Seashore, several LI groups (incl. Bob Anderson/LIRR), several trolley groups, ERA, etc., etc.
Mr t__:^)
As I just said in another post, I know all the people here and I enjoy talking with you all. The problem is at all the sites you kindly mentioned the %age of posts I would would find of interest would be significantly lower than at SubTalk. On all my e-mail lists (10 at last count) I probably delete 95% of the messages w/o even reading them. SubTalk is the only MB that I have found so far that has remained consistantly interesting and heavyly patronized. Do you know about a SouthJersey Talk?
[SubTalk is the only MB that I have found so far that has remained consistantly interesting and heavyly patronized.]
Mike, I'll be the first to admit that I do the same, but I do spend time at: Shoreline (on-line ver. of newsletter that members can see); IRM (nice photo & stories); City Search (what MC are avail); MRLI aka Trainland (they (he) does a frequent piece on Public Access TV, and incl. links to steam group at Riverhead); Danbury (I like diesels in red & black !); Paul Matus, Tom Scanrello, Trevor & Gary's sites (lots of photos). So you can see I come here to talk & listen, go there to see.
Mr t__:^)
Oh, those are other sites. Well yes I visit a whole slew of Train and Trainsit sites and I have downloaded about 600-800 megs (compressed) of Railroad images. I like George Elwood's site, Eastern Rail News, The Signalbox, Henery Morscher's Site and a bunch of others. I've spend the last 4-5 years colleting railroad images and I've come to a point where I would just like to talk to people. Before Subtalk my only contact w/ other railfans was "on location" a few times a year. The Aug 5th trip was my first ever organized railfan trip w/ other railfans (my Dad not counting).
I'm in there now.
Gah... I can't get the webchat stuff to work. There any IRC server I can connect from?
irc.cjb.net
Channel #metrocard
Just a few minutes ago, the R142 passed by on the Livonia El. It was going through its testing procedures. Stef, be on the lookout in about a hour and a half.
Train#1906Mike
Got it! Eyes and ears are peeled. You didn't know that 6336-40 were getting delivered on Monday Night?
-Stef
Sure didnt, although yesterday I heard screeching from the work cars on the curve from Linden to the 3 line. I also looked at the Linden shops from across Linden Blvd and all I saw was work cars. Ill keep my ears and eyes out.
Train#1907Mike
Hey, Mike. Good looking out!
Yeah, we figured they do the movements of the 142's on off-peak hours.
Too bad we're in daylight's savings time which does not allow for great photo-taking opportunities.
If things go smoothly Stef should be able to make a report later tonight.
BMTman
> Too bad we're in daylight's savings time which does not allow
> for great photo-taking opportunities.
Actually, we have been out of Daylight Savings Time and in Standard Time for over a week now. Did you forget to turn your clocks back?
- Lyle Goldman
Since a few people are complaining that the topics here are getting a little stale, I decided that we should have a thoughtful discussion about how it could have been.
Imagine that instead of Eisenhower creating the Interstate Highway System, that a rail equivilant was created instead. How would that change everything we know today?
Here's that I think. At the time the interstates were created, cars seemed like the future of everything. They were getting bigger, faster and more affordable. The orignal purpose of the interstate system was to transport the military across the country quickly. Because at the time it took forever to drive across the country. One design element that was proposed for the highways was "landing pads" on the side of the road for flying cars! Remember, back then the flying car would have been invented by the 70's at the latest!
When you think about it, is the automobile the best way to move a large number of troops and equipment? I don't believe so. Trains seem like a much more cost efficent way to produce the same result. Planes were still not in the jet age yet, so that probably wasn't a consideration then. If the car wasn't in it's "golden age" at that time I think that a rail system, perhaps high speed, would have been built.
Now think about what happened when the highways were built, suburbs sprang up like a mutha f---. By the 60's, the transit systems in the country started to decline because of the new high tech highways. If a nationwide high speed rail system was in place in the same way interstates are today, would there be suburbs and sprawl like we know it? I don't believe so. We would have really dense cities, perhaps like New York, all over the country. We would have more greenspace, pollution would proabaly be higher in the cities than they are today, but at least it would be concentrated and not spread all over the place like my hometown. Rail would probaly be cheap to use, since that would be the primary way people would commute between cities. People would probably have more money, because they wouldn't have car or insurance payments to worry about. But most importantly, us railfans could spend our whole lives riding the rails, and never cover the same area twice!
It wouldn't be a perfect world, cuz there are surely problems with having the huge rail network like that. I really don't any, but they are there. I still think it couldn't be near as bad as it is today.
What are some other things that could have or could not have happened? Let's hear some opinions.
I generally try to avoid "what-if" speculation, but you do bring up some interesting ideas. Come of think of it, I'm not going to posit some "what-if's" of my own, but instead will say that the Interstate Highway system was largely inevitable. It's not uncommon for people to think that the ascendency of motor vehicles over trains resulted from the building of the interstates. In fact, the precise opposite was true. Motor vehicles had become a basic part of American life many years earlier, a trend somewhat slowed but not halted by World War Two. Suburbanization also long pre-dated the Interstates. Similarly, the glory days of passenger rail travel were over well before the 1950's. In short, the growth of auto use and the rise of the suburbs made development of the Interstates a near-necessity.
>>rise of the suburbs made development of
the Interstates a near-necessity. <<
well not quite--the Dan Ryan--one of the first "urban" interstates was built to relieve the South Shore Drive, but the first day they were both parking lots and the Rock Island and Illinois Central "suburban" trains (which both had many stations within city limits)
had 5000 fewer riders. cart?, horse?, egg?...
however, Daley I building of the Ryan and the concurrent desertification of huge tracts of the South Side certainly promoted white flight to the 'burbs.
I'd have to do some reading up to get the exact dates, but I'm pretty sure the Congress (now Eisenhower) Expressway predates the Dan Ryan. Even if the Dan Ryan was built first, the idea of the Congress Expressway had been on the drawing boards since Burnham's Plan of Chicago in the early part of the century. Hence, why the 1930's-era Main Post Office was built to span the still-unbuilt expressway.
Speaking of white flight, the location of the Dan Ryan was deliberately planned to prevent "white flight" from the city, by creating a huge physical barrier between the rapidly-expanding black ghetto of the South Side and the white working-class neighborhoods like Daley's own Bridgeport. The location of the expressway was actually shifted several blocks east during the planning stages in order to create a more effective racial barrier. (At 4 local lanes and 2 express lanes in each direction, along with the Red Line rapid transit down the median, the Dan Ryan still ranks as one of the widest and busiest expressways in the world and is indeed quite an impressive barrier.)
However, as we know, things didn't always work out as planned... The planners knew that these new expressways would provide a convenient way into the city, somehow forgetting that expressways go in two directions.
You could almost think of Richard J. Daley as the Robert Moses of Chicago, but at least he had the sense to include rapid transit as part of the project.
-- David
Chicago!
Congress was indeed planned and built earlier,but was explicitly not an interstate. The Ryan marked the flow of Interstate monies to urban freeways.--see comments in Garreau-Edge Cities. Although the Red Line runs down the median, it was some ten years plus after the highway opened for autos. And the data about ridership loss on the CRIP, and IC stands. The Ryan helped kill both "local" and near -in usage particularly on the Rock Island. It may be that was likely anyhow--consider C&NW on the West line, but IMHO neither desireable nor positive.
The Dan Ryan opened in 1962, IIRC. I can vaguely remember when it was being built. There was a chasm dug out where Marquette Rd. crosses over it, and I noticed it one day when we were on our way home and were about to enter the Skyway. The Dan Ryan took away a lot of traffic from Michigan and Indiana Avenues, which were tied into the Skyway originally. The long exit ramps over Englewood Yard, which intrigued me to no end, are gone now.
My father remembers when people referred to the Ryan as the "Damn Ryan".
One of CTA's calendars has a 1958 photo of the just-opened Congress Expressway with a 6000-series train in the median, with an Edsel also visible on the highway.
The fact is we already HAD an amazing rail system. Everywhere you could put an RR had an RR. The problem with a 50's hi-speed system is that it only serves cities. More affluent people prefer to live in the suburbs. The suburbs demand a car for local travel. Many people do not like having to ride a crummy commuter train into a city to catch a train. They would prefer to drive to an out of the way terminal like an airport. If hi-seed rail only serves the cities people will still need cars and if everyone has a car why take the train. What Eisenhower could have done is made Railraods tax exempt and possibly removed some regulations. Our country is too big and spread out so local travel is better by car and long distance travel is better by air.
Here's what I could see working. RR's get tax breaks and some deregulation. With some federal money they hi(er) speed corridors where possible and to rejuvinate other rail lines in the modern Amtrak image. Trains would compete w/ the interstate bus market and also deliver mail and express. To make this system last they would have needed to increase the cost of ground shipping via truck taxes and the like. With this I see the RR's avoiding the bankruptcy of the 70's and emerging with a much larger Amtrak style passenger network. Most cities w/ 50,000 people would get 2-4 trains a day. Corridors like NY-BUFF, BOS to ALB, DC to RICH, Crestline to CHI, CHI to DET, CLE to CIN, etc etc would all be running c. 100 mph and the NEC would liik probably the same. The 150mph technology was not arind in the 50's and you forget the NEC was a huge freight line. The tracks didn't go local express express local, but more like passenger freight freight passenger. Also don't forget that most of our country has mountains with all types of curves that limit speed. These are just some observations
>>> Imagine that instead of Eisenhower creating the Interstate Highway System, that a rail equivilant was created instead..... The orignal purpose of the interstate system was to transport the military across the country quickly <<<
Wait a minute! In the 50s there was already an extensive rail network, and it had been used quite well during the 40s to move the military and military supplies across the country. The building of the interstate highway system was to facilitate the further use of the automobile backed by all those interests (auto makers, tire makers, oil companies, highway builders) who make up the highway lobby. The movement of troops was just an excuse to loosen the federal purse strings.
Eisenhower himself participated in the 1920 cross country Army convoy, which took a month to complete over many unpaved roads, and he had seen the autobahns in Germany, so he was aware of the value of good roads to the military, but the United States did not need the Interstate System for military purposes.
Tom
Rail would not be the most effective method of transportation for the military. A supply line could be cut simply by damaging the rails, whereas trucks can go virtually anywhere.
That's a good point, but if there were a complex network, couldn't there be a way around it?
The point i'm trying to make is that, if it were not for the rise in the popularity of the automobile at the time that it happened (post WWII), rails might have been the big public works project of that time.
It's just an interesting idea, in my opinion. I thought of how interstate spurs (i.e., I-755, a theorectical highway), to little towns made them more economically viable, and I was wondering what if rails were extended to those little towns instead of highways, and would they have grown in a different manner.
>>> if it were not for the rise in the popularity of the automobile at the time that it happened (post WWII) <<<
You have your time frame wrong. The rise of the popularity of automobiles goes back to the end of WWI and the roaring twenties. The big boom in auto sales after WWII was from the pent up demand from those who did not have the money to purchase a car in thirties becausce of the depression, and could not find a car, or gasoline, or tires during the war because of non availability, when they had the money from increased work. These were not people who just dicovered the automobile, and they would not have used an extensive rail network if one had been built at that time as long as they had a choice to drive.
Tom
While riding Amtrak Train 283 NB to Albany last Friday, as we approached Yonkers Station, I saw new subway cars #7310 if I recall correctly. I gather they are R-142 destined for Division A service.
My questions are
1) What route would they get from there for placement into service?
2) Does anyone know whether or not a subway extension in Yonkers was ever considered and if so did the New York Central have any role in preventing it?
METROCARD & CARDHOLDERS COLLECTORıS CATALOG
This is an 8.5 inch x 11 inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collectorıs MUST HAVE. The supply is very limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea.+ $2. P & H in check or Money Order
Made out to MICHAEL MAKMAN.
To: Prof. Putter
Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
Its running !!
I caught it at 6:40 at Grand Central going to Brooklyn Bridge.
It seemed to be running normal EXECPT the automated transfer announcements were incorrect. The were for the wrong time of day.
At 14th Street - Change for the L and N (R was missing)
At Bleeker Street - Change for B and D (F and Q were missing)
At Canal - Change for J and N (M and Z were missing)
At Brooklyn Bridge - Change for 4 and J(5, M and Z were missing)
Also it appeared the T/O was having problems resetting the system because after it went thru the loop and picked up passengers going uptown, there was no automated annoucements and the side signs had not been reset.
Have a nice day !!
I know the T/O on that train he didn't program the computer at Brooklyn Bridge because he didn't have time. Also it was his first time on the train.
Couldn't the conductor program the computer?
i know something ain't wrong with system. i think that the conductors and T/O's need more training to use these systems. also they should never not reset them for it will cause customer confusion and embarrassment.
Is this the same train that ran last summer, or is this a new one? I know you gave the car numbers, but I don't quite have them all memorized yet.
- Lyle Goldman
I rode 7270 this morning, from 51 to 28 St. Some observations:
At 42 St, the automated announcement was "This is a Brooklyn Bridge-bound 6 train; the next stop is" DING! The announcement was fine at the other stations; I guess it just doesn't like 33 St.
The strip map had "Route Change - This Map Not in Use" lit, with the directional arrows flashing alternately with all the stop indicators. The maps in 7268 and 7269 were OK.
i sometimes wonder about these automated signs. is it malfunctioning or is it the conductor not knowing what is he or she doing? i road the R-142 world series twice today on the 2 (11/10/00) the first time between 14th street and chambers street, the sign malfunctioned and caught itself at park place. the riding back to the bronx it was flawless. riding to brooklyn it was flawless. riding back to the bronx. exterior lcd and interior lcd and anouncements except for "stand clear of the closing doors please!" didn't work at all. nothing was on. no blinking or anything. major embarassement. riders looked at it as another piece of crap that the MTA conjured up.
An article in Thursday's Star-Ledger discusses overcrowding on rush-hour trains and buses into Manhattan. Year ended last June 30 found 16,500 daily standees on buses and 6000 on trains on the Corridor, Coast, and Midtown Direct lines. The overcrowding is expected to get worse before improving.
A minimum-information article in Thursday's Trenton Times states that contracts have been awarded for the Morrisville Yard Project and to relieve a bottleneck north of Trenton which occurs when Corridor trains cross over to track 1 before entering the station.
Is there going to be a station built on the PA side?
Is there going to be a station built on the PA side?
Not yet. That was the subject of bickering between PA and NJ. PA demanded that Transit establish a station in PA as a quid pro quo for building Morrisville yard and Transit insisted that a PA station would destroy the Corridor schedule.
For more info, see Trentonian article.
Thanks. Are they building a flyover? Or are they going to use one of the ones I vaguely remember being in that area? I'm wondering why it will be so much easier to reverse direction there.
Hard to believe that the businesses which serve commuters in Trenton really have that much influence. A few years ago, didn't some silly NJ legislator get some rule passed to keep NJ Transit from offering new services out of state? Maybe NJ Transit just doesn't think the time is right to bring that up again, with the corridor trains already overcrowded.
But at least they are leaving space for the station. I'm pretty sure Septa would manage to build the yard in such a way as to make a new station impossible.
Back in the day FAIR interlocking was a combined operation that allowed trains to platform and tie up at Trenton station, allowed trains access to the Bel-Del line and provided a full crossover. All of this occured infront of FAIR tower just north of the platform and 3 double slip switches were invloved. Also the line was 6 tracks from FAIR to MILLHAM. More recently the Bel Del jct has been romoved and the crosover and station access functions have been decoupled. There are now 2 logical interlockings, FAIR and the extended limits of FAIR. The extended limits are a 6 track "turnout ladder" crossover that serves the main line and the small layup yards. This replaced the old N/B double slip ladder. Maybe there are some good aspects of both the new and old layouts that can be recombined to make a more efficient interlocking.
BTW there are the remains of large electrified yards on the north-west side of the tracks. Today its just fields w/ catenary poles and rusty rails, but they extend all the way to MILLHAM and might be put to use.
Here are some relevent refernces:
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/morris.gif
http://members.aol.com/amtrakmaps/A-7.html
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/fair.gif
http://members.aol.com/amtrakmaps/A-8.html
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/millham.gif
What do these two World's Fair cars have in common besides the fact that they both run on the 7 line and that they are currently in the same consist?
I'll take a guess and say that they were two of the World's Fair cars that carried state names ??????
One thing, though: 9336 is an R-33 single. IIRC, none of the singles had state names applied to them. Of course, I could be wrong, in which case I stand corrected.
Does anyone have a list of the car #'s and states ??
There is a photo on a different part of this site showing # 9440 as being RHODE ISLAND
What were the rest ?????
9440 - Rhode Island
9658 - Neighborhood Youth Corps
9744 - state of Missouri
9748 - Commonwealth of Massachusetts
9762 - State of Vermont
9766 - State of Kansas
Since you didn't provide an e-mail address Motorman Marc let me thank you on the board. I knew that there weren't many. I trust your list even though I don't remember the Neighborhood Youth Corps car # 9658
Anytime, glad to help...
That picture of 9440 was my Windows wallpaper for a few months :). I've been trying to track it down in service; no luck so far. Does anyone know if 9440 is still on the end of a train, as shown in the picture? It would make the hunt easier.
I rode #9440 as the first car of a Diamond 7 on March 15, 1999.
I saw it again on October 26, it was eastbound, last car of the train.
wayne
They both have the World Series Wrap?
Nope, that would be 9394 and 9713.
I have not a clue. Maybe they have funny fans like #9328 does.
wayne
Ah, so that was the R-33 single we rode on.
Nope. Car 9574 has AC like all the other R36 cars.
They have both had their lights replaced with the "non-blinking" lights, like the mainline redbirds, R-32s, R-40s, etc.
Ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner!
You are correct!
They both have those lights that don't blink whenever the car gaps out. 9575 blinks, but not 9574. They both have light arrangements similar to those on the mainline cars, and the new-style light boxes. Although 9574 appears to be a bit dark compared to the cars around it.
Pulled into NYP this am, engineer announced, "Track 15, crew change
ends, PBY extra." What's a PBY extra?
PBY is not one of their Passanger Station points according to their web site. It might be a crew reporting station or point.
The November issue has a lot of bus topics, but the theme is Subway Series. At the Bus Festival they interview the OTHER Mark W., i.e. the one who works at the Transit Museum, he's as nice in person as he appears on camera.
See some shots of the wrapped #4 & #7 trains
For more detail see my BusTalk post.
Mr t__:^)
>>...they interview the OTHER Mark W.
Y-y-y-y-ou mean there's TWO Mark W's???
Awed for Amusement Purposes... :)
Mark W. #1 = Mark Watson, employee of the TA Museum
Mark W. #2 = member of the RPC (Railway Preservation Corp.), i.e. one of Mike Hannah's guys at Coney Island & frequent SubTalker.
Mr t__:^)
>>>Mark W. #1 = Mark Watson, employee of the TA Museum<<<
Education Director of the transit museum
Peace,
ANDEE
Heypaul rumors dispelled.
heypaul on a very recnt visit to Palm Beach, feeling a yearning for the comfort of his motormens cab , stopped by a polling sight. This sight had many expatroits from northern cities . These cities had transit systems and these same expatroits at one time or another used these systems. While at the polling sight , heypaul noticed some of the expatriots suffered from "irregularity, and had to hurry their rights under the US constitution.
So in summery, heypaul wittnessed voter irregulatity in seniors, former transit riders, at Palm Beach Fla. while seeking protection fron an anxiety attach.
avid
avid has come close to understanding my situation...
while it is true there is a great problem of irregularity amongst voters in palm beach county, that is no secret as it is widely known by the cashiers in all the chain store pharmacies...
avid was correct when he stated that i have been placed in the federal witness protection program... i will be testifying soon before a congressional committee on the grave threat presented to the security of this nation by railfans of all persuasions... to guarantee my safety after my testimony, avid has graciously given my plastic surgeon a photo that he took of himself when he was recently in a penny arcade in coney island... taking on avid's features will be guarantee that i will go undetected for the rest of my life, as nothing is known of this man of mystery...
to insure my security federal agents have turned avid over to our arch enemy in the transit system... avid will be given the choice of working in a subway newstand or laboring in a sweat shop sewing rat skins into fur coats which will keep the ruling classes warm this winter...
Bravo!
avid
Heypaul rumors dispelled.
heypaul on a very recnt visit to Palm Beach, feeling a yearning for the comfort of his motormens cab , stopped by a polling sight.To use the Polling booth as a surgate motormans cab. This sight had many expatroits from northern cities . These cities had transit systems and these same expatroits at one time or another used these systems. While at the polling sight , heypaul noticed some of the expatriots suffered from "irregularity, and had to hurry their rights under the US constitution.
So in summery, heypaul wittnessed voter irregulatity in seniors, former transit riders, at Palm Beach Fla. while seeking protection fron an anxiety attach.
avid
Rueters is carrying a story linking british rail deaths to a book and TV show entitled "The Railway Children"
-Hank
Since "The Railway Children" is on PBS Masterpiece Theatre this Sunday, we will have to see if there is a great increase in death and maiming of children next week.
Tom
Hello,
Are the SEPTA routes 100,101,102 considered City Division all the way out to their terminals, or are they multiple-zone rides? It's not clear from the SEPTA web site if these routes have multiple fare zones. Essentially I need to know if the SEPTA day pass is valid to the terminals of these lines and back or is extra fare required.
Thanks,
Dave
I know that on Route 100 multiple zones are in effect, but if you ride on a weekend, all passes are good for anywhere on the SEPTA system.
Michalovic
They all have multiple fare zones. To ride the whole line you will need a base fare (token) and 3 zones on the Rt. 100 (40 cents each) or 2 or 3 zones on the Rt. 101/102
When I tried it on the 100 the driver reluctantly let me use the daypass
to cover th first 1.60 of the fare, and I paid only 0.80.
I find it odd that the daypass is a transfer with a sticker on it which says Day Pass
the 100, 101, and 102 are not City Division Routes. They are entirely suburban.
That's interesting because the Septa web pages for those routes, including the timetables, maps, and fares pages, don't mention zones on those routes or which stations are in which zones, whereas the regional rail timetables show the zones. I suppose the paper timetables explain it all?
Yes, in recent years the paper timetables have gotten very good at explaining all the zones and fares etc. The Rt. 100->102 are part of the Red Arrow division.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think the Sharon Hill (Rte. 102) is only one zone (the base fare) and the Media line (Rte.101) is (2) zones
for the whole trip to Media. So it costs and extra .40
for the ride to Media.
Chuck Greene
No, when I went to Clifton-Aden in 1994 I had to pay a base and 1 extra zone.
All SEPTA Divisions (City, Suburban (which includes the former Red Arrow and Frontier) and Regional Rail) have zone fares. For City routes, generally these kick in when the routes leave the city limits. There are some exceptions (notably those going into the suburbs for short stretches such as 11 into Darby, 13 to Yeadon/Darby, 21 to 69th St, 42 to Wycombe). To ride into each zone there is a 40-cent additional charge per zone.
On Suburban Division lines there are often multiple zones. 100 goes through 3 fare zones on the 69th St-Norristown trip. 101 has a second zone which starts at Woodland Ave Springfield. 102 is all within 1 zone. These are explained on the timetables.
Regional Rail zone structure is very clearly explained on the timetables.
The Day Pass is good on all City Division routes and the first zone of Suburban Division routes. It cannot be used on Regional Rail except for a one-way trip to the Airport.
I believe SEPTA day passes can be used for a one way trip on any Regional Rail line, not just the Airport Line.
You are correct. I double-checked and found the error of my thoughts. The Day Pass is good on all City Transit routes and is also good for one trip one Regional Rail (one-way). It doesn't cover zone fare on the City Transit routes which leave the city and charge the 40-cents additional for the zone. It is NOT good on any Suburban Transit route.
They have fare zones, the day pass is so screwed I won't even take a guess as to if you can use it.
SEPTA's website says the daypass can be used for the first zone on 100, 101 and 102.
IIRC, on the Aug 5 trip that Jersey Mike recently mentioned on another thread, we were unaware of that and we purchased tokens for out 69th Street-Bryn Mawr round trip.
I forgot about that, also. We could have used our day passes since we only went to Bryn Mawr. That was sure fun that day! Remember the 36
trolley that passed us by at 88th st!
Chuck Greene
Hi Chuck.
Dave Pirmann subsequently posted that SEPTA told him that the P&W does not honor day passes.
Bob
Bryn Mawr is not a zone away from the city. If you look at an R1 schedule which has a map of the zones in the system, Bryn Mawr is in the second zone, not the first one. It's just a zone away from 69th Street Terminal, which is in Upper Darby by the way, not Philadelphia.
Sorry about that, Bryn Mawr is in the 3rd zone.
We went to Bryn Mawr on the P&W, not on the Paoli Local. We paid one token to exit, Bryn Mawr being one zone from 69th Street.
Geographically, 69th Street is in Upper Darby, separated from Philadelphia by Millbourne. So what? 69th Street is the city division terminal.
We paid another token to get on at Bryn Mawr and got off at 69th Street without paying an additional fare. One zone.
I know and understand all of this. I take the P&W very often, and I take it to Bryn Mawr all of the time, and i know the fare system very well (almost too well). Bryn Mawr is not refered to as the first fare zone towards the city, it's refered to as the third one, that's why the transpass is not accepted. It's entirely suburban, and does not operate within the first zone of the city. The zone system is based on the regional rail, and Bryn Mawr is shown as being in the 3rd zone. Also, from 69th Street to Bryn Mawr is a one zone ride, but that's just the ride, not the actually zone it is in. As for 69th Street being a City Division Terminal, I don't think it is. For instance, there are only 4 city division routes that serve that terminal (MFL, 21, 30, and 65) The rest are suburban routes. However, it is refered to as a transfer center between the city division and suburban routes. So, basically, I don't really think it is the city division terminal. In fact, I'm pretty sure of it. Also, on a different note, what were you doing in Bryn Mawr? You could've said hello to me since you were in town, lol.
what were you doing in Bryn Mawr?
Waiting for the next car to 69th Street on the occaision of the August 5 SubTalk Septa trip. We would have welcomed another participant.
Oh, cool. Too bad you didn't get to go all the way to Norristown. It's much more interesting than the stretch before Radnor, also crossing the schulykill river and much more.
Right. We were running into time constraints for two of the members of the group and one member was bereft of funds, so we rode to Bryn Mawr and back just to ride the P&W. We all agreed that as insignificant as Philly's system is compared with NYC, there were a lot of things that we missed.
Click here for the trip report.
Here's the answer I just got from SEPTA, I figured I'd post it to since there was some contradictory information floating around...
Reply: The Rt.#100, Rt.#101, and Rt.#102 lines are Suburban Transit routes. DayPasses ARE NOT ACCEPTED on these routes. The Rt.#100 is compiled of three zones - from 69th Street Terminal to Bryn Mawr Station is the first, from Bryn Mawr to Gulph Mills is the second, and from Gulph Mills is the third. The Rt.#101 is a Two zone route. The first suburban zone is from 69th Street Terminal to Springfield Mall and the second zone runs from the Springfield Mall to the end of the line in Media. The Rt.#102 is a one zone ride all the way from 69th Street Terminal to Sharon Hill.
Thank You,
SEPTA Travel Information Center
I was just on MS Train Sim website, it looks great and can't wait to get it, but I wrote them a letter that they should consider adding a Subway line as an add-on or in the next version, it enough of us write them maybe they will add it. I sugusted the Historic A train the land mark 7 or the Chicago El.
Whats the URL?
http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim
This looks great!
While searching google for MS Train sim, I came across Pork's flight sim site:
aeroswine
Did you notice the ONE glaring error? Look in the screenshots section. The ACELA Express trainset has a standard Amtrak/PRR colourized position light cab signal display. The ACELA Express units will have 2 extra cab signal indications and a completely different display*. However as a Railfan I prefer this cab signal display.
*Information courtisy Amtrak Engineer.
Still waiting for Midtown Madness... New York City Edition.
MS took a NYC term to market this game to Chicago (The Loop), SF (Upper Market) and London. But Midtown will always be New York.
Try "Driver;" it has New York, Miami, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Newcastle. Nowhere near accurate, of course!
I did notice on someone's transit page a picture of NYCT's NovaBus Low-Floor demonstrator "digitized" for Midtown Madness; did someone do this for kicks, or could a New York Midtown Madness actually be in the works?
Is there a URL for "Driver"?
running on...
http://driver.gtgames.com. There's a sequel coming out that includes Chicago, which, of course, means els! I assume you won't be able to drive those, though ;).
Some guy did the bus for M.M. He made an update for it which includes some more city skins, Miami Transit, MARTA, and one that looks like it's been fire bomed.
HOLD UP! you mean there's a midtown madness for SF and London?
London sounds sweet, and chicago was cool, BUT...
RUSH will always be the best when it comes to san fran
Midtown Madness is Chicago. Midtown Madness 2 is London and San Francisco.
running on...
Hi all,
I have a website called "Subway Simulator Central" which will have all LRT/Subway/Commuter addons for MS Train Simulator designed by anyone, so if you design one, you can post it there or we can link it to your site.
Not much at this site (mostly links) till after the MS Sim is released sometimes next spring.
http://hometown.aol.com/subwaysimcentral
Cheers,
Mike the Mailman in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
Site looks good. It would be nice if Microsoft had a beta version of the program to download. Just to see how the program work and create add on's.
Paul
I was waiting for the 9:26am train to Penn yesterday at Mineola, which for some reason was held at the Nassau tower, then finally came into the station at 9:31am. No OB train was crossing so who knows why?
Anyway was this train fast! I got on, head car. The engineer really made this train fly, 82mph between Mineola-Merrillion and Floral Park!!
That has gotta be one of the fastest damn stretches on the LIRR.
The train makes no stops until Jamaica (no Hillside) and really gets up to speed after the switches around Merrillion, and keeps it up until the switches after Floral Park.
The east river tunnel wasn't too fast though, clocked about 52mph. Man there are some serious water leaks at the Manhattan side of the tube.
It seems we always use the first tube Manhattan bound, which is right near the #7 ramp. There is another tube after that for Penn, but is that used mostly by Amtrak? I still find the LIC/Penn tunnel portal layout confusing, could somebody explain it to me?
Also later I took a "C" train through Cranberry St. and wondered what all those lights and pumps are for in the middle of that tube.
Also it appears there is an emergency exit in the 53rd street tubes, under Roosevelt Island. Where does it lead?
Yes the exit does lead up to Roosevelt Island. I don't know the depth at that point , but my knees hurt just thinking about it.
avid
The East River tubes contain an Underground Flying Junction. Its best illustraited on this diagram of F interlocking http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/f.gif. In short comming out of Penn Station from north to south the tunnels are W/B LIAR, E/B LIAR, W/B Amtrak, E/B Amtrak. On the LI City side the tunnels are W/B LIAR, W/B Amtrak, E/B LIAR, E/B Amtrak. Just west of LI City the E/B LIAR and W/B Amtraks cross eachother. This is why the tunnel portles are staggered. Both E/B tubes emerge farther east that the 2 W/B tubes, which descend adjacent to the Hunters Point (i think) station.
A couple of items to add to that. The two tunnels that Jersey Mike calls LIRR are for tracks 17-21 -- all LIRR tracks. The two that he labels Amtrak access tracks 17 and lower (I'm not sure how low -- some of the low numbered tracks stub end at Penn). LIRR actually uses all 4 tunnels -- particularly during rush hour. Off Peak, most LIRR trains use the tunnels labelled "LIRR". Amtrak (and sometimes NJT) can be found on tracks 13 and 14 off peak -- and on rare occasions can be found on 15 and 16.
The e/b tubes appear to go directly underneath the Hunter's Point Avenue station, emerging just east of the station.
The LIAR tubes can access tracks 21-14 and Amtrak tubes can access 17-5. I'm reading this off my Pig station diagram.
That sound about right. 13/14, BTW, are on the same platform, 17 is all by itself. I don't think AmTrak ever use 17 and rairly uses 15/16, but non rush hours you'll find them frequently on 13/14.
AmTrak likes to park trains in the station while LIRR moves them to the yard as soon as they unload. They tend to be on the platform no more then 10 minutes before scheduled departure. The exception would be a train with the doors closed. If you know where to walk on the LIRR level you can get to most of the lower numbered platforms (you can't do that from the AmTrak level).
Mr t__:^)
For some reason, once I was on a PW branch train, off peak, and we used the second W/B tunnel portal that Amtrak uses. I saw the usual location of the portal and I wondered, where is this train going, since I never use the second tunnel.
I wonder exactly what LIRR trains use the second W/B portal, so I can catch them so I can take a closer look next time.
Many use the second w/b portal during the AM rush. Almost all of them use the express tracks between Jamaica and Woodside. Since you're an Oyster Bay line guy, my suggestion for catching a train through that tunnel is to go to Jamaica during rush hour and take an express to Penn that stops on track 5. Chances are that those trains will run on what is normally considered the eastbound express track and into the second tube.
If you're looking for a guaranteed ride through that portal, the 7:03, 7:37 and 8:01 from Rockville Centre all use it almost every day.
Chuck
Or catch a "Freeport" PM rush hour train to see it the other way, e.g. get half way off the platform and have to wait while a AmTrak crosses in front of you. (IIRC there are three tracks to merge to two at that point).
Mr t__:^)
For some reason, once I was on a PW branch train, off peak, and we used the second W/B tunnel portal that Amtrak uses. I saw the usual location of the portal and I wondered, where is this train going, since I never use the second tunnel.
I wonder exactly what LIRR trains use the second W/B portal, so I can catch them so I can take a closer look next time.
Also you can really hear the trains when they blow their horns entering the tunnel, especially at the #7 Hunter's Point station.
Train Dispatcher game has a lay out of this for you to play. I think the web site is www.signalcc.com.
I've seen Slamtrak through trains on 15-17 right in the middle of LIRR.
I was in Roosevelt Field the other day and I look this flier, it looked like a huge Metrocard of sorts that said Tunnel, no ID.
A huge ad with a club featuring Friday November 10th event. Inside there was a picture of an A train of what looked like R10's, front sign saying Fulton-Euclid ave. I can't figure out what station it's in, but the same pic might be on the nycsubway.org.
The station looks deep bored.
The pic in the Tunnel flyer is the same pic in the nycsubway.org site, it's the first picture in the IND 8th ave section, which also can be found at http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r4/r4-800.jpg
The train is R4's, and appear to be the backside of an A train, with the express light illuminated. The station is 190th street.
The webside of the flyer designers is at www.skylabnewyork.com.
The question I have is did they get permission from this web site to use that picture, or did they have to?
I knew when I picked up the flyer at Roosevelt Field, that picture inside looked familiar!
No, I don't think they did... I get a lot of requests and as long as they're non commercial I typically grant them but I never follow up and who knows what the "finished product" looks like. I don't recognize the name of that studio but they might have asked. I always ask to be sent copies of the finished report or whatnot but I never get them. I had a lady from Microsoft ask for a train photo for a report they were putting together and in thanks she said she'd send me some MS game or other but I never received it. The fact remains is that anyone with money can essentially do what they want because I couldn't afford to pursue legal matters against infringement cases...
The fact remains is that anyone with money can essentially do what they want because I couldn't afford to pursue legal matters against infringement cases...
Shhhh....Don't tell them that.
The QC Quad had a front page picture a few weeks ago with some subway scenes with the headline "New York Sees its First Subway Series Since 1956!" I noticed one of the pictures looked like that of an R15, #5957, on the 1 line. The "5957" appeared in the IND-style car numbers, so I checked it out here, and lo and behold, there's a picture on this site of 5957 on the 1 line. It just so happens to be the exact same picture featured on the front page of the QC Quad. I forget the date, though. The picture of 5957 I'm talking about is located at:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r15/r15-5957.jpg.
See this item and lament NYC's latest blown opportunity. It sure sounds like Mississippi got an excellent deal for less than $300 million. NYC has, of course, thrown away far greater amounts in response to utterly false corporate relocation threats.
Note the comment concerning the large labor pool in Mississippi. I can say with 100% assurance that NYC has a far larger pool of qualified people eager for work.
"Note the comment concerning the large labor pool in Mississippi. I can say with 100% assurance that NYC has a far larger pool of qualified people eager for work."
But you can't say that New York has a larger pool of qualified people eager for work without UAW representation. Nissan wouldn't have built that plant in the New York metro area even if you gave them three times the tax breaks that Mississippi offered.
"Note the comment concerning the large labor pool in Mississippi. I ("I can say with 100% assurance that NYC has a far larger pool of qualified people eager for work." )
There is simply nowhere in New York City that you could build and supply the parts for a plant of that size. The trucking system just can't support it, rail is too slow, and there is no rail connection anyway. New York City NEVER had industry on that scale...it was all light industry, apparel, printing, assembly.
(But you can't say that New York has a larger pool of qualified people eager for work without UAW representation. Nissan wouldn't have built that plant in the New York metro area even if you gave them three times the tax breaks that Mississippi offered.)
That's hitting the nail on the head. There are certainly acres of brownfields with MASSIVE underused infrastructure available in Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse. Depopulation is leading to labor shortages, but the education system is excellent and Nissan could outbid other employers. BUT another iten held that New York has surpassed Hawaii to become #1 in unionization. Aside from low wage stuff that has moved to the Third World, and capital intensive stuff where all the jobs are automated out of existence, union avoidance is the NUMBER ONE predictor of manufacturing plant location in the United States.
When the unions managed to push up wages in New York without organizing the south, our industrial base was doomed.
There is simply nowhere in New York City that you could build and supply the parts for a plant of that size. The trucking system just can't support it, rail is too slow, and there is no rail connection
anyway. New York City NEVER had industry on that scale...it was all light industry, apparel, printing, assembly.
Giving up hope is the type of defeatist attitude that's been NYC's curse for many years. There are places where enough land could be assembled. Two that come to mind are the Brooklyn Navy Yard and "Industry City" on the Brooklyn waterfront. Both areas are occupied by tired old factory buildings which are either vacant or house marginal industries. Raze the buildings, pay the few remaining users to relocate elsewhere, do whatever environmental cleanup is needed (federal $$$ should be available for that), and voila! You have enough land for an auto assembly plant. No rail connection? Well, that could be solved by running more carfloat service to the Greenville Yard in Jersey City; if NYC wants the plant urgently enough, it could agree to subsidize the extra cost attributable to the carfloats. Lack of highway capacity might be more of a problem, but keep in mind that most of the plant's workers will be using transit. It might not prove impossible to handle the extra truck traffic.
Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't be easy for the city to attract the Nissan plant (or another auto plant). It would be a truly audacious idea. But I'd say it high time for NYC to stop being the world capital of "can't do's" and a perpetual door mat. Instead, it's time for the city to do something bold.
But you can't say that New York has a larger pool of qualified people eager for work without UAW representation. Nissan wouldn't have built that plant in the New York metro area even if you gave them three times the tax breaks that Mississippi offered.
That's hitting the nail on the head. There are certainly acres of brownfields with MASSIVE underused infrastructure available in Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse. Depopulation is leading to labor shortages, but the education system is excellent and Nissan could outbid other employers. BUT another iten held that New York has surpassed Hawaii to become #1 in unionization. Aside from low wage stuff that has moved to the Third World, and capital intensive stuff where all the jobs are automated out of existence, union avoidance is the NUMBER ONE predictor of manufacturing plant location in the United States.
But isn't New York's high unionization rate largely attributable to union membership among public sector employees (including government-subsidized health care and social services)? If so, unionization rates in the private sector, especially manufacturing, might not be too far out of line. Remember that NYC in particular has a large immigrant population that's by and large arrived after the decline of traditional manufacturing and hence knows little or nothing of unions.
(But isn't New York's high unionization rate largely attributable to union membership among public sector employees (including government-subsidized health care and social services)?
Yes and no. All the upstate manufacturing is unionized.
(Two that come to mind are the Brooklyn Navy Yard and "Industry City" on the Brooklyn waterfront. Both areas are occupied by tired old factory buildings which are either vacant or house marginal industries.)
Well over 20,000 people work in those areas. They are marginal only in comparison to what they used to be, when industry was willing to locate on the 10th floor. The Nissan Plant would have one floor, would employ no more people than are on the ground floors now, and would have to bring in skilled labor from outside, replacing the unskilled labor that is already there. Industrial policy is a bad idea.
Two that come to mind are the Brooklyn Navy Yard and "Industry City" on the Brooklyn waterfront. Both areas are occupied by tired old factory buildings which are either vacant or house marginal industries.
Well over 20,000 people work in those areas. They are marginal only in comparison to what they used to be, when industry was willing to locate on the 10th floor. The Nissan Plant would have one floor, would employ no more people than are on the ground floors now, and would have to bring in skilled labor from outside, replacing the unskilled labor that is already there. Industrial policy is a bad idea.
I agree that in general, it's a bad idea for a city or other governmental unit to try to set industrial policy. But "in general" does not mean "always." Auto plants bring many benefits beyond the direct jobs they create. They require a whole network of suppliers, which of course themselves create jobs and generate tax revenues, and what with today's "just in time" inventory systems many of these suppliers have to be located in close proximity to the assembly plants. What this means is that siting the Nissan plant at one of the Brooklyn locations might well lead to a net gain in industrial jobs for the city even if a somewhat larger number of existing jobs are displaced. In any event, the firms displaced from the Navy Yard or Industry City could be assisted in finding new locations elsewhere in the city.
You also have to consider the multiplier effect. Auto plant jobs pay very well indeed, even when the workers aren't in the UAW. That means more spending in city businesses and more tax revenues. I would imagine that most of the existing Navy Yard or Industry City jobs pay modest salaries and therefore don't lead to as significant a multiplier effect.
Finally, there's the prestige factor. Don't laugh, being the site of an auto plant is a terrific way to put a place on the map. Consider such Sun Belt locales as Spring Hill, Tennessee; Vance, Alabama; Princeton, Indiana*; and Georgetown, Kentucky. Instead of being relegated to varying degrees of obscurity, they're famous nationwide as the homes of assembly plants for Saturn, Mercedes, Toyota trucks and Toyota cars, respectively. Okay, Brooklyn's not obscure, but most people in the country probably regard it as a rundown place whose glory days ended four decades ago. Having a Nissan plant would restore Brooklyn's reputation mightily.
One last thing, as far as job skills are concerned, auto assembly plants by and large do not require high skill levels - that's one of the purposes behind the assembly-line method. NYC surely has plenty of people eager and able to work at a Nissan plant.
* = before anyone cares to nitpick in a geographical sense, Princeton is in the southern end of Indiana, not far from Kentucky, and in any event Indiana is politically, culturally and economically more a part of the Sunbelt than of the Midwest.
* = before anyone cares to nitpick in a geographical sense, Princeton is in the southern end of Indiana, not far from Kentucky, and in any event Indiana is politically, culturally and economically more a part of the Sunbelt than of the Midwest.
Saying that Kentucky is in the Sunbelt is itself stretching it.
And I've heard of only one of those places: Spring Hill, TN and even then only because it was the subject of many a Saturn commercial. I doubt the average person cares about where the plants are.
* = before anyone cares to nitpick in a geographical sense, Princeton is in the southern end of Indiana, not far from Kentucky, and in any event Indiana is politically, culturally and economically more a part of the Sunbelt than of the Midwest.
Saying that Kentucky is in the Sunbelt is itself stretching it.
And I've heard of only one of those places: Spring Hill, TN and even then only because it was the subject of many a Saturn commercial. I doubt the average person cares about where the plants are.
Well, I would consider Kentucky a Sunbelt state, though admittedly it's a more dubious case than, say, Arizona. It's politically and culturally conservative, has low unionization rates (I'm not sure if it's a right-to-work state, however), and has a prosperous and growing economy - all hallmarks of a Sunbelt state.
You probably don't follow the business news closely, or else you'd know about the Sunbelt auto plants. Believe me, the state and communities milk the news for all it's worth. IIRC, all of the Sunbelt plants have large "Visitor's Centers" that are major tourist attractions.
Prosperous? Kentucky, and unquestionable Sunbelt states like Mississippi and Alabama, are not exactly prosperous. They are, in a word, poor.
Which is another reason I am actually not so sad to see the plant go to Mississippi. I may not like their senators, but those folks down there need all the help they can get. Sure, there are folks in Brooklyn that need jobs too, but without question there are opportunities in the NYC metro area.
The enormous subsidies actually make some sense in a place like Mississippi. I don't think they make sense at all in Brooklyn.
Prosperous? Kentucky, and unquestionable Sunbelt states like Mississippi and Alabama, are not exactly prosperous. They are, in a word, poor.
Which is another reason I am actually not so sad to see the plant go to Mississippi. I may not like their senators, but those folks down there need all the help they can get. Sure, there are folks in Brooklyn that need jobs too, but without question there are opportunities in the NYC metro area.
Kentucky and certain other Sunbelt states may have relatively low average incomes, but they're rapidly becoming more prosperous. New jobs are being created at a pace that would be unimaginable to New Yorkers, leading to an increase in incomes and overall prosperity. Some day these states will leap ahead of New York in terms of prosperity. It may not happen tomorrow, but happen it will.
And as for "opportunities in the NYC metro area," well, it's hard to see where they would exist what with the city's high unemployment rates (which would be far higher, surely in double digits, if it weren't for very low work-force participation rates).
(Kentucky and certain other Sunbelt states may have relatively low average incomes, but they're rapidly becoming more prosperous.)
Let's be clear about this. Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, Louisiana, and Oklahoma all had LOWER poverty rates in 1999 than New York State. That's right, check the census bureau website if you don't believe me. Mississippi was still SLIGHTLY higher. New York State's median household income was below the national average, and below, for example, Missouri.
New York is a poor state with a lot of rich people in it -- in Manhattan, a few other parts of New York City, the north shore of Long Island, the five towns, and most of Westchester, Rockland, and Putnam. The rich people are so rich, and so numerous, that New York's per capita income is #4 in the nation. But it doesn't reflect how most people in New York actually live.
All federal funding formulas, however, are based on per capita income, not median household income, and not poverty. In fact, the differences in per capita income are SQUARED. So the federal government treats New York as a state that is almost as rich as New Jersey, instead of almost as poor as Mississippi. Plus, the rest of the country hates us and rips us off any way it can.
Think about that while paying high taxes for low quality services.
When the unions managed to push up wages in New York without organizing the south, our industrial base was doomed.
It seems to me that you are in agreement with Anon_e_mouse that the Confederacy should have won.
I cannot say that I disagree. To this day the North and South are in different worlds.
Okay so perhaps it's not a rail transit question, but has anyone seen the Norfolk Southern ad on TV? I saw it last night. It shows computer-generated futuristic looking cities with Norfolk Southern trains speeding through them (lead by Dash 9s, it looks like?) while the announcer's voice says "carrying the materials to run america, from the coal for its factories to the silicon for its computers..."
All in all, I thought it was a slick, well-done ad, BUT....
why do they need to advertise? NS is pretty regional....any thots on this?
-Abe
Is this the same as their last ad that ran about a year or 2 ago? That one was there you had a cab view of a locomotive going to equilivent of 1000 mph over various lines. They shot it by pointing a camera out the back of a Theatre car and then playing it in reverse.
no it wasn't. The whole thing was CGI and it was computerized versions of trains pulled by dash-9s speeding by through futuristic cities that were like half-city, half computer chip...it was kewl
why do they need to advertise? NS is pretty regional....any thots on this?
NS covers the entire eastern third of the country. Advertising out West would encourage shippers who ship by UP or BNSF to connect with NS rather than CSX.
I saw this ad too, and thought, "Good for them." It's about time Railroads took steps to promote themselves better and made attempts at positive PR. The railroads do need image improvement, especially after the recent mergers (UP & SP, Conrail & NS/CSX) which have resulted in poor service and angry shippers. Investors and customers tend to respond positively to a business which acts like a business, and advertising is integral to any successful business enterprise. I'm sure we weren't the only ones to be surprised by seeing a railroad commercial, but I, for one, hope it helps their business grow.
NS also ran a television ad about a year and a half ago which showed its horse symbol morphing into and out of various products that NS carries. I can recall lumber, autos, coal and possibly one or two others. It may sound weird, but it looked pretty good.
I had another transit dream last night and I am pretty sure I had the same dream sometime before. The constant part of these dreams was that the Market-Frankford Line linked with the R5 Paoli line and ran along the Main Line for a stretch, sorta like the H&M did. In last nights dream I was at a station right near the MFL portal where it diverges from the R5 and heads somewhere underground. It was a typical main line station. Now in both dreams I saw an Amtrak train head down into the Tunnel (AEM-7 haules), but this time I saw that there were some turnouts down there and it was part of a flying junction. The MFL trains were fairly frequent and the line has 2 sets of signals (transit and NORAC) and a lunar white aspect to signify something. Now in this dream I was only at the station and I might have ridden it, but in the last dream I do believe I rode an MFL line train to some destination in the suburbs. BTW the time I was at the station was early afternon, but then I came back around 5pm because I had to use the station bathroom (OMG it was gross! I decided to go elsewere. Even dream me has standards.) and in the dark all the signals were spectular.
Whoa.... Transit Dream?!?
I, for one, have never, ev-v-v-v-v-ver,
had a dream involving rapid transit be it
subways or buses... yet I stick like glue
to any redbird in sight during daylight hours!
...just ask "W"... Mark W
:)
Intentionally Waiting for Redbirds at 96th Street.
I constantly have trainsit Dreams, and I usually post them here. The only bad part is that I can't take pictures or use the information I learn.
I'm good for about one subway dream per month. Some are real doozies, like the one in which #7 trains were running at ground level past Shea Stadium and the cars had pantographa.
Must've been at the Shore LIne trolley museum
Peace,
ANDEE
No, it was definitely Shea Stadium. And the cars on the 7 weren't R-36s, either; they were interurban coaches with diesel horns. One passing train let out a nice B flat chord once, twice, and finally a long sustained blast which gradually slid down a half-step as the train moved further and further away. That's about when I woke up.
Perhaps I was combining the LIRR with the 7 in my dream. After all, we did take the LIRR to the World's Fair in 1965 from what was left of Penn Station. However, in my dream, those trains on the 7 ran down the middle of Roosevelt Ave., interurban style.
Whoa.... Transit Dream?!?
I, for one, have never, ev-v-v-v-v-ver,
had a dream involving rapid transit be it
subways or buses... yet I stick like glue
to any redbird in sight during daylight hours!
...just ask "W"... Mark W
:)
Intentionally Waiting for Redbirds at 96th Street.
My transit dreams always involve the Almond Joys. One dream I had, the A.J.'s were going over The Ben Franklin Bridge. Another was the A.J.'s were going over The Walt Whitman. Another was the A.J.'s running on the Atlantic City Boardwalk. Each dream, the A.J.'s had a connection with New Jersey. One dream made me $500.00. I've dreamed I was on car 711 (in the dream, 711 is a single unit, not part of a married pair as in real life). When I woke up, I played 711, that night, 711 came out straight. Since they've been gone, I haven't hit the Daily since.
If the MFL did go to the Main Line, that would be great for me, since I wouldn't have to transfer at 69th Street anymore, lol.
Has anyone here purchased the recently released Twelve Historical New York City Street and Transit Maps Volume II From 1847-1939?
Do you have any comments on the maps included in the set?
In comparing the maps from Volume 1 to Volume 2, it would seem that the first volume maps would be of much more interest to the transit fan.
According to the Daily News, the Democratic Assemblyman who leads the transportation committee announced that the Democrats are committed to the Second Avenue Subway and will fund it some other way (he's from Rochester, and by the way, the Thruway needs another lane each way between Syracuse and Buffalo). Bruno was non-committal on coming up with tax dollars. He would have been equally non-committal about coming up with tax dollars to build it after the "studies" were over. They either are going to invest in the infrastructure of they aren't.
Boy, putting another pair of lanes on the Thruway will cost a HELL of a lot of $$$MONEY$$$ after Bu$h sto-er,ah got elected I don't see much being spent in the Northeast for the next 4 years. Ditto for the 2nd. Ave. subway.
(Boy, putting another pair of lanes on the Thruway will cost a HELL of a lot of $$$MONEY$$$)
Only in New York. The land is there. It's not like the Cross Bronx expressway. You dig, lay the sub-road, and pave. OK, so you have to expand the over/underpasses, but there aren't a lot of those per mile of road in Upstate NY.
They put another pair of lanes on the Henry Clay Blvd thruway overpass in Syracuse; IT TOOK 2 CONSTRUCTION SEASONS.
Running new lanes in-between the cities wouldn't be that hard, since the Thruway already owns the land. The killer would be the I-390 and I-490 interchanges south of Rochester and the I-690 hookup just west of Syracuse, which took for-ever just to get set up so that the damn traffic lights at the toll booth and State Fair Blvd. were eliminate.
As far as federal funds are concerned, upstate would be more likely to get some in 2002 because there are a lot of Republican congressman, plus Pataki, up for re-election. On the other hand, should Gore become president, it's also possible he and Hillary will develop the same loving relationship Lyndon Johnson and Robert Kennedy had towards each other if Gore sees her as a potential rival, and that could also be a negative on directing funds into the state.
With a Republican-controlled Congress (yeah, it may be 50-50, but most likely Cheney will be up there breaking any tie votes) and a Republican in the White House, and both Senators from New York being Democrats, New York State might get some scraps thanks to Governor Pataki and members of the House from upstate, but New York City will probably be shut-out at every turn. Remember, love her or hate her, Hillary is the junior Senator from NY, and will have to take what she can get as far as committee memberships. Chuck Schumer (sp?) is only in the middle of his first term, and he is in the minority party and still fairly low on the seniority totem pole. At least we can expect DART to see a modest increase in Federal funding, but kiss the 2nd Ave. Subway goodbye for at least 4 more years.
Isn't a new election held at the next time of the election if a senator resigns?
This means that in the event Lieberman becomes VP, the Rowland appointee would only serve for the first session of this Congress.
Sorry Pork, he would serve until the Midterm elections in 2002.
Worse than that, if Lieberman was elected, his replacement would be appointed by the Republican governor. But it looks like that won't happen.
I hope your right. As a Republican I am furious that the damn demos want to keep counting until the count goes their way. Nixon could have done the same thing in 1960 when there was evidence of some real fraud in Texas and Illinois, but he was a statesman and decided it would hurt the country. Gore is nothing more than a cheap and rotten politico who's willing to cause a constitutional crisis to further his end. Mark my words. If Gore steals this election, the people will remember and his four years in office will be miserable.
19,000 votes were THROWN OUT in one FL county alone, Go through with a REVOTE in ALL controversial jurisdictions, not just in Fla. but in WI,OR,NM and other areas the REPUBLICANS have doubts about. Fair is Fair (may the best man win.)
You are truly a man of reason.
You prove that people can seek justice without being clouded by blind partisanship.
There have already been two tallies. The D's are hoping to recount until it comes out their way, and if it doesn't go to court. What a bunch of low-rate second raters.
And you Republicans just want an illegal vote to stand because it works your way.
If Gore won, and some predominantly Republican county in the Panhandle had the same ballot and many ended up voting for Nader, then you would be complaining like you never have.
Wouldn't happen Pork because Republican voters are smarter than that. That's why we are Republicans. By the way, did you read the article carried in the most papers today that second graders used the butterfly ballot in picking out their favorite Disney characters. I figure if 8 year olds can read a ballot then those dum Democrats should be able to as well. But then again when your symbol is the jackass I suppose it speaks volumes about your intelligence and character. BTW, did you know that Gore flunked out of theological school and dropped out of law school because he wasn't making it? Now you know.
Wouldn't happen Pork because Republican voters are smarter than that. That's why we are Republicans
Total bull, and prejudiced I might add.
By the way, did you read the article carried in the most papers today that second graders used the butterfly ballot in picking out their favorite Disney characters. I figure if 8 year olds can read a ballot then those dum Democrats should be able to as well.
I have not seen an image of this cartoon ballot, so I cannot judge. Most likely it was a folded piece of paper, so therefore the pages couldn't slide and become misaligned. And my contention with the ballot is not that it was confusing, but that it was ILLEGAL. Florida law clearly states that all markings for candidates MUST be made on the right. All votes for Buchanan, Nader and others on the right side are therefore illegal and a revote must be taken because just discounting them would be taking away someone's vote.
But then again when your symbol is the jackass I suppose it speaks volumes about your intelligence and character.
The symbol was drawn by a Republican cartoonist in an attempt to provide contrast for the older elephant symbol.
BTW, did you know that Gore flunked out of theological school and dropped out of law school because he wasn't making it? Now you know.
I don't care if somebody dropped out of school. There are so many people who have never even finished high school that are successful and make a mark on society. I am not one of those people who believes that education is done exclusively in an institution and that a piece of paper (diploma) is the only symbol of someone's qualifications.
Maybe not Pork, but your party followers have had a field day deriding Bush's intelligence. And yet I don;t recall Bush ever flunking out of school. He got his graduate degree in business from Yale, not a bad place to get a degree. So if you Dems are going to do dirt to GWB, maybe you should take a good look at Gore the Bore before you go mouthing off about our guy.
Once again, I DON'T CARE about a person's formal education. Bush mangles the English language, and he also can't seem to have his own people.
Notice how he brings in all of daddy's friends to help him right now? 4 years of Bush (and it WILL be 4 years) will be a repeat of 1989-93, only much WORSE.
Yale...hummmmmm. I wonder if daddy Bush had to buy new football uniforms, a new dormitory or a new international airport.
Not the last one.
Yale still needs an international airport!
>>>And yet I don't recall Bush ever flunking out of school.<<<
"I don't recall." Seems like Republicans are quite fond of this phrase.
How about "No controlling legal authority?" Or have you forgotten that? How about be tucked into bed when a child with a lullaby about the union label when he was 23 at the time, or inventing the Internet, or Love Story being about him, or he discovered Love Canal. You better stop while you can because your man is a pathalogical liar.
"BTW, did you know that Gore flunked out of theological school and dropped out of law school because he wasn't making it? Now you know."
Care to cite a source for this "information?" I didn't think so.
Gore basically dropped out of divinity school, according to the washington post, because he did not want to take Greek (I took Greek in college so I would say Gore made the right choice). From reading articles at
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/goremain100399.htm
it appears to me that Gore never intended to get a degree in divinity, only to sort out his mind after Vietnam.
As for law school, he quit to run for congress. He learned that the congressman was retiring and jumped right in. If you have some evidence that he was not doing well, let's hear it. But don't slander him if you don't.
There have ben numerous articles in both papers and magazines about Gore's lack of academic prowess or stick=to-it attitude. Maybe if you would do some serious reading you would come across some of this info. It's all out there. The fact is he was not doing well in law school, and who are you to say that he wasn't serious about divinity school. When you're not doing bad and quit it is always easy to make up excuses, and we have seen Gore as a person of questionable character to make these beliefs reality.
Gore certainly has stick-to-it attitude. He has refused to concede an election that may be rightfully his, regarless of what the scared Republicans say.
I've put up a link to a major newspaper. If you bothered to read it, it suggested what you said was wrong. Either cite something to support what you say, or I will assume you are simply passing on scurrilous, false, rumors. Doing that certainly does not promote democracy.
BTW, Gore graduated with honors from Harvard (undergraduate). That does not suggest to me that he would have had academic trouble in Vanderbilt's law school. Also, he was accepted in Vanderbilt's law school, supposedly after he failed out of Vanderbilt's divinity school. Hmm.
Fred, you raised some very good points but you failed to mention that the Florida Democratic Committee had approved the ballot in question several weeks before the election. Perhaps they anticipated the potential problem (that the ballot was too complicated for the average Florida democrat)and kept it quiet, to be used as a "Get out of Jail Free" Card" in case the election didn't go their way.
Check out Rush Limbaugh's web site for some interesting stuff.
And this website is?
www.rushlimbaugh.com
I don't care about people who can't understand ballots, it was a simple concept.
The ballot was illegal, plain and simple. If you Republicans had someplace where the ballot would be contested in your favor, you would do so in a heartbeat.
So the Democrats approved an illegal ballot?
So the Democrats approved an illegal ballot?
Right on, Mike...and so did all the other officials, and the ballot was in the local newspapers before the election, AND NOBODY COMPLAINED. I'll say it one more time....nobody complained! Recount all you want, but only count ballots where only ONE presidential candidate is clearly marked, and discard the others. Some Florida voters didn't vote like they wanted to...but it is too late to go back, period. -Nick
It doesn't matter who approved it, the ballot is illegal, plain and simple. You cannot have a successful democracy if you do not support all of its laws.
A Dimwitocrat comes back with a typical stupid answer. Come on Pork, you're above all that. Where's your class. You know this is all a canard. Your people put out an illegal ballot, pure and simple. That is what you're saying, but then you defend your party in this matter to the hilt. That is bogus bull@@$^%&^^&!!!!!
Your Wrongpublican buddies just FEAR that if the people are truly allowed to speak, they will send you away where you belong.
I expect no less from a party that holds the common man in such contempt.
We hold the common man in contempt? It is only dummies that believe such crap. You ever heard of John Kerrey, Herbert Kohl, John Corzine, etc? They are the richest men in the Senate and they are all Dimos. I suppose they are champions of the people. You must have eaten some adulterated bacon.
I'm happy Corzine was elected. He doesn't have to bow to the special interests for campaign bribes contributions. Ideally, all elections would be publicly financed.
Well since most Democrats want to increase the tax burden on those who can afford it (ie the rich), this makes a rich Democrat all the more nobel. They have done well and they don't mind sharing.
You cannot have a successful democracy if you do not support all of its laws.
Keep reminding yourself of that each time you push the speed limit a little, or overstay a parking meter. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those are state and local laws. The "democracy" refers to the federal nation.
There are differences between simple laws about simple matters, and laws that affect the very fabric of our republic.
If one person violates a speed limit, nobody cares (except for the person paying the ticket!). But it something completely different when people's votes are thrown out because the "chad" couldn't completely come through.
I always make sure my chad went through, as do most of us. It is just a safe precaution. Those in Florida should have done the same.
Sometimes the "chad" does not go all the way through (pointed out on a news program last night). Printing is not an exact science, ya know.
That's precisely why it is high time that "chad" balloting was abolished and machine balloting be instituted nationwide so that the country will have a unified system of voting (less of margin for error).
Time to cut out the nonsense.
BMTman
BMT Doug: Yes, we are total agreement on this point. There must be a unified system of ballots in this country. The fact that voting laws are according to state statutes is carried to an extreme by different states using different ballots. With so much mobility today, plus the fact that changing jobs, retirements, etc, mean hundreds of thousands of people moving each year. It would do all of us a world of good to end this crap of different ballots. Maybe this election fiasco, no matter how it ends, will result in two things. 1. Unified ballots, and 2. The grisly end to the Electoral College.
I don't think the second one will happen, and you know, there's no reason for it!
It took 112 to have another electoral college problem. It's not a common occurence. Imagine if there was a small margin, and counties nationwide tried to do a recount?
Congress can however, by statute impose a unified ballot format, and reform the electoral college so that each state allocates electors like Maine and Nebraska (1 for each congressional district, two at large, so that the electoral representation from those states can be split).
Pigs is right about the electrical college, it should stay. The EC system makes the system more resistant to local voting irregularities and recounts are far easier. It would also make campaigning almost impossible because now the canidates need to try and stop everywhere. The electoral college also helps prevent the population of any one region from singlehandedly desciding the election.
Regarding both issues you see to be under the impression that we live in some sort of single nation here. What really exists is a group of indivudual states that have agreed to live under certain rules. The only entities that have a right to choose a national leader are the states as a whole. Its like having your votes count in a forigen country. Because states don't have jurisdiction in other states they must deside a "national" leader by the meeting of delegates spelled out in the consitiution.
The only thing I think should happen is that there should be an "electrical" college. Each elector would be virtual and the winner of each district or state would have that vote automatically cast without actually having chosen a human elector.
This would require a constitutional amendment. This can be solved by having congress force all states to make their electors pledge to vote for the winner in their state or district. Congress can force states to modify their federal election practices.
Glad to see you agree with Hillary Clinton.
Isn't that something Sarge? Imagine that. I don't think anybody would have believed it, but it's true. I think the EC should go bye=bye.
Don't expect enough small states to vote against it to create the 38 neccessary for an amendment.
Which is a good thing, the EC is an important part of Federalism.
It's been pointed out in the past week that without an electoral college, we wouldn't have just questions about chads, absentee ballots and confusing punch card ballots in one state, the challenges would span all 50 states.
And while Gore currently holds about a 200,000 vote lead, there are still about 2 million absentee votes uncounted nationwide, so if this election had been decided by popular vote, you would have a different leader, but the same disputes would remain.
'
If one person violates a speed limit, nobody cares (except for the person paying the ticket!).
Not true. As a citizen and a driver I get extremely incensed at the attitude of many that speeding isn't a big deal. Yes, compared to murder it's a minor violation, but it is tolerance of minor violations that leads to people trying to get away with more serious ones.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nobody complained because nobody thought to consult Flordia election law. I'm sure there is a whole book of elections laws in NJ, but I don't know what they are. I'm sure that in Palm Beach they have been using this ballot since who know when and nobody ever thought to check if it was legal or noticed if the law was changed making the ballot illegal.
When Ross Perot was syphonning off Republican votes, no one - including the media - paid it any attention. The very same ballot was used in Florida and no one cared. Why? Because bubba was the winner in both elections. Now Ralph Nader is hijacking democratic votes and bubba's clone is trailing. Suddenly the media is banging the drums and the lawyers are licking their chops. Yahoooooooooooo
However while people are complaining about Ralph Nader having handed the election to Bush, nobody is saying that those votes were frivolous and should be retaken.
Stop wasting your breath Dude. When you deal with Democrats you have to consider the source, then hang your head in amazement and shame that we have such political morons among us.
When you deal with Democrats you have to consider the source, then hang your head in amazement and shame that we have such political morons among us.
I'm above this, the Wrongpublicans clearly are not.
I will not engage in meaningless insult trading with feeble minded people.
Both Pigs and Fred are acting like idiots in this thread. But at least Pigs doesn't teach high school kids. I'm sure glad I don't live in Arcadia. If my kids had a teacher with such bigoted ideas like Fred, I'd sue the school district. And the Sea Beach is an ugly subway line.
When Ross Perot was syphonning off Republican votes, no one - including the media - paid it any attention. The very same ballot was used in Florida and no one cared. Why? Because bubba was the winner in both elections. Now Ralph Nader is hijacking democratic votes and bubba's clone is trailing. Suddenly the media is banging the drums, the ballots are suddenly confusing & illegal and the lawyers are licking their chops. Yahoooooooooooo
Am I mad at Nader? Yes. Do I want his votes to go to Gore? No! I want those 19,000 people to be able to cast their ballot for whoever they want and have it count.
But if we don't have a third or fourth or fifth party start to get enough votes to really start counting so they can get federal funds and maybe give us another choice in the future we'll be stuck with what we have. That is, politicians who represent not the people, not the states, but rather the party.
Could have been pressured to do so (or paid off).
Notice who's the Governor of the Sunshine State???
BMTman
Same ballot style was in use in 1996, when the late Lawton Childs, who beat Jeb Bush in 1994, was governor.
Something has finally got to put an end to this illegal ballot. It has nothing to do with the Governor, Chiles (correct) or Bush.
We certainly know it won't be around in 2002.
Mike: You have to understand that Dimwitocrats can do stupid things like you mentioned, but no other party hack will criticize that. They give each other immunity. I know of these things. I used to be a strong Democrat until Jimmy Carter, and I know how they operate.
Just because Jimmy Carter was history's greatest monster is no reason to leave the party. After Nixon the Democrats got a little chit to trade in incase of bad president and they used it for Carter which makes them even w/ the Republians.
["I used to be a strong Democrat until Jimmy Carter, and I know how they operate."]
Jimmy Carter was probably the most moral and honest President we ever had and also the biggest gentlemanly. I am proud I voted for him twice and if he ran again I would definitely vote for him again.
Jimmy Carter was probably the most moral and honest President we ever had and also the biggest gentlemanly. I am proud I voted for him twice and if he ran again I would definitely vote for him again.
He was a disaster for exactly the reasons you stated. Underhanded presidents are far more effective than honest ones. If it wasn't for Cater we'd still have that canal we built and lo cost Iranian oil.
Your party is trying to steal this election just like the way they stole it from Nixon in 1960.
The Democrats want the winner to be determined by counting all the votes. The Republicans want Bush to be declared the winner without counting all the votes. Don't accuse the Democrats of trying to steal the election.
If the Republicans truly believe that Bush has won the Presidency, they shouldn't be afraid of a recount.
They just want to prevent recounting because the current result is beneficial to them. Whether it reflects the true sentiments of the people doesn't matter.
Pure and simple:
James Baker could not have said it better: "...machines are neither Democrat or Republican."
Think about it; If you just see any clippings or watch the boob tube, is this how we really want to determine an election? Holding a card up to the light and trying to determine what the voter meant by a "hanging chad" or crease in the ballot?
By permitting this method, we are now getting into subjective rather than objective methods of obtaining the results.
If anyone truly thinks that trying to read the voter's mind is fair and accurate, why don't we have a character similar to the one Johnny Carson played on his show, where he hold the envelope to his head to determine the answer.
If one steps back from this and takes a deep breath, it should be clear why this country is moving away from manual counts to machines.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
If one steps back from this and takes a deep breath, it should be clear why this country is moving away from manual counts to machines.
According to a recent item in the Wall Street Journal, the last company in the United States to make voting machines ceased doing so in 1978!!!
The local news reported that some New Jersey districts have purchased new digital machines.
People at work who live in New Jersey and people who live in Pennsylvania voted with new digital machines.
And thanks to this fiasco a lot more people will in 2002.
In my section of Pennsylvania we are still voting on paper ballets, where you have to darken the box alongside the name of the person for which you want to vote. There is no prospect that this will ever change!
That's the way we did it back home in North Carolina. I served as an elections official there from 1985-1994; we experimented with machines during the primaries and runoff primaries for the 1988 Presidential/gubernatorial elections. The delays got so bad that we reverted to paper ballots for the general election and sent the @*&% computerized machines back to the supplier. According to our son, Franklin County is still using paper ballots (we vote in New Jersey now).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hot lunch: You need a stiff drink because your insightful reply went right over the head of the Dimwitocrats. Don't bother them with logic because they can;t follow it.
Fred;
I guess we agree not just on the virtues of the ABs and D-types.
I wish everyone out there would realize this: In this wonderful country of ours, you have the right to vote, however, when doubt exists as to the actual intentions of the voter through his/her ignorance (please remember everyone; ignorance means lack of knowledge, not stupidity) of the procedure and requirements (absent fraud or deceit) of ballot preparation and submittal, that ballot must be disqualified.
We are now in dangerous waters when reviewers can examine each ballot and attempt to determine the intention of person submitting that ballot.
Using this perverted Florida logic perhaps this country could forgo the election process by just impanelling a board of psychics who would be able to tell us the intentions of the majority of registered voters!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
The people's votes should not be thrown out because of an illegal ballot. Machine problems should not break a person's right to vote, especially if it causes the wrong man to be "elected"
Using this perverted Florida logic perhaps this country could forgo the election process by just impanelling a board of psychics who would be able to tell us the intentions of the majority of registered voters!
We've got: Flaming Crap!
Where I vote, it is clearly posted if you make a mistake on the ballot, you can get a new one. It's not a "machine problem" if someone votes for two people and doesn't get a new ballot, it's "human ignorance." If a ballot shouldn't be thrown out, what should happen? A revote for the whole county because of a few people that can't follow directions?
Rob: According to Porky, yes. But consider the source.
I can consider the source of your message, but I don't usually like to think about what happens inside the colon.
Nice try Pork, but take it from me, you need more fiber in your diet.
Punch card ballots are ridiculous and wasteful. Why should paper be wasted. Congress should immediately move to ban all ballots in which votes are registered through punching holes. Optical pencil readers are the way to go if we wish to stay in the Nineteenth Century.
Punch cards being ridiculous and wasteful was not what I was responding to. That's a different dissucion. However if you want to talk about that, okay. I totally agree with you. Do you know what the only reason why every county hasn't gone to an electronic system? Because East Bumblefuck County, USA doesn't have enough money to buy the machines. They are not cheap. That's the only important reason why. Here's an interesting article about a computerized voting system.
I heard a report of people being REFUSED new ballots after making a mistake.
There was an article in Monday's Times which documented this in Palm Beach County Florida. Many people said they could not get help with the ballot or they could not get a new ballot if they messed theirs up. (This is potentially much more legally potent than the fact that the ballot was confusing, but I hope that argument never goes to court.)
Perhaps- but it seems that most of the states of the union have legal provisions for hand recounts. Most interestingly, the Lone Star State has only recently passed a law for hand counts - signed in law by G W Bush. This pretty much neutralizes Bush's arguement in this case.
Anyone know what line would go to Queens after the 63rd Street tunnel connection is opened? Also how will the lines run once the S/S Manhattan Bridge tracks are opened?
Tell 'em Bob!
There have been two counts already. How many do you want? Cut out this crap and tell Gore the Bore to show some class and cash in his chips. You guys are going to pay for this for years ahead if you don't end this circus now.
You guys are going to pay for this for years ahead if you don't end this circus now.
We will pay for it. We'll have to endure the next four years with an inept president that doesn't even have a mandate of the plurality of voters!
At least he won't have his party Congress for the last two.
Fred, calm down.
Sounds like you're running low on Thorizine.
BMTman
Good point pigs.
Besides, as far as I can remember, different parties are to be LISTED IN DIFFERENT COLUMNS. The Florida ballot should be thrown out because both Dems and Repubs were LISTED ON THE SAME COLUMN. Only Buhcanan was listed on the opposite side (as far as I could see from what's been shown on TV and in the papers).
I could understand how senior citizens and/or recent immigrants could have been confused by the setup of odd columns and the arrows not lining up properly with the appropriate candidate (s).
BMTman
They have a lot of people on both sides, like all of the fourth party candidates (like the Libertarians and the Socialists).
I've never seen a paper ballot (and I can think of three states where I've seen paper ballots) with the different parties in different columns.
The pathetic thing, as Peter pointed out, is the paper ballots. But they certainly aren't illegal. In 2 years, in Florida, I'll bet they are. But not now.
Wrong. The card was approved by people who were obviously NOT senior citizens, which is the case in terms of population for most of the districts in Southern Florida. That's what the problem is all about.
Funny how no one mentions this...
BMTman
All I got a say is that how can the senior citizens down there complain about the ballot being too hard to understand, but can flawlessly play 10 bingo cards at the same time? :)
I kind of wonder about that myself. As my friend, the mastermind BMT Man to try to explain that to both of us. Come on Doug, we are waiting.
Have you ever sat among the 'older crowd' and watched a bingo game? Alot of the time there are mistakes and the folks yell out 'bingo', when in fact they haven't won.
So, give me a freakin' break.
BMTman
I'll give you a freakin' break when you understand a bingo game is not the same as an election ballot. You are supposed to understand what you are going if you're a voter, and if you jdon't understand, ask for help. Precinct workers are there for you. To equate bingo with voting is ludicrous at best, and ridiculous at worst. You need a tranquilizer.
Then why the hell did you agree with Rob if you don't agree with the premise?
You need a tranquilizer.
You need a brain.
You need bran
OK, that is funny!
It was just a joke to begin with. There's another variation going around which is that maybe the old people would have understood the ballot if it was set up like a bingo game.
I'll give you a freakin' break when you understand a bingo game is not the same as an election ballot. You are supposed to understand what you are going if you're a voter, and if you jdon't understand, ask for help. Precinct workers are there for you. To equate bingo with voting is ludicrous at best, and ridiculous at worst. You need a tranquilizer.
The NYTimes article today (Mon) stated very clearly that MANY people asked for help. THEY COULD NOT GET IT. The ballot was so confusing that the elections officials were overwhelmed and simply would not answer questions in many cases. Worse, and certainly illegal, people said that they had realized that they voted the wrong way, asked for a new ballot, were told to line up somewhere, and were never given a new one.
I am not saying here that they should revote - that's a whole 'nother can of worms. But the evidence is conclusive that the ballot was very confusing, the system broke down, and it very likely cost Gore the election. Bush gets elected because of an incompetent election clerk in Florida. If that makes you happen, fine.
And yes, you certainly can be a Democrat and also be incompetent.
I kind of wonder about that myself. Ask
my friend, the mastermind BMT Man, to try to explain that to both of us. Come on Doug, we are waiting.
It's really kinda simple, Fred. Elections (and politics in general) is a once-in-a-while happening, while Bingo is a religion. All the time.
Catholic joke: What are the Five Marks of the True Faith?
Answer: One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and BINGO!
As a Catholic I like the joke. Perhaps a little humor right about now will cool down tempers somewhat. Politics tend to get us very angry.
What few news commentators seem to mention is the fact that in 2000, one of the nation's biggest states (and many others too) is still using paper ballots, of all things. Talk about being absurdly low-tech ...
Apparently, there are two types of paper ballots in use now, the "punch card" type ballot, which apparent produces tons of loose chads and makes people across the nation mad at each other, and the "optical scanner" ballots, where voters mark in a box next to a candidate's name and the ballot is then scanned like a lottery ticket is in a machine.
I think the optical ballot scanners are becoming more and more common, though I'm sure problems probably would come up there too if anyone looked real hard.
Apparently, there are two types of paper ballots in use now, the "punch card" type ballot... and the "optical
scanner" ballots...
There's also the traditional "make an X in the box" type, still in use in my home county in North Carolina.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for mentioning it for me. That speaks volumes about Democrat duplicity. The lady who cast the deciding vote to hand count the ballots was the same jerk who okayed it in the first place.
The ballot was made by a Democrat and approved by some other officials, some of whom were Democrats. Clearly they utterly screwed up. But wouldn't you say your theory is going a little far? I've worked on campaigns and believe me none of them are well enough organized to pull off the shady deal you are mentioning. Not even close.
Personally, I don't want to see a revote, because it opens too many cans of worms. But having read about the fiasco in that county, where LOTS of people were confused by the ballot, and could not get help or a new ballot if they got confused, I can certainly see why they are very upset. I know I would be upset if my vote got screwed up in that way, and I was illegally prevented from getting a new ballot after I saw that I had screwed it up (before casting it). Wouldn't you?
Bad part: no matter who is elected, their election is tainted. Not good for our country. Silver lining: should lead to modernization of the electoral system.
Problem with a revote in one FL county is that they will KNOW that the way they vote will affect the overall outcome. So you have to expand it to all of FL. But THEY will know that how they vote affects the overall outcome. Therefore, the only solution is a second national election.
-Hank
Another solution is to allow only those who voted on 11/7 to vote in the second election.
But suppose you voted for Ralph Nader on Nov. 7 in hopes of his getting to five percent in the national vote in order to qualify for matching federal funds in 2004.
Now, if you vote again, you know that Nader finished at three percent, and your re-vote for him will do nothing towards getting him those funds. But you do know if you vote for Gore or Bush this time, it will affect the outcome. The same holds true for people who actually did vote for Buchanan, Harry Browne or any other minor candidate. In this situation, you'd be allowing them a chance not to just to re-vote, but to change their minds based on information voters for none of the other minor party candidates in Florida or the rest of the U.S. had on Nov. 7.
You can argue that point only if after the re-vote you can subtract all of the first vote Nader votes from Gore and have Bush win. I seriously doubt that will be the case.
Subtracting votes after the re-vote? Wow, that would confuse things even more.
Anyway, as of 2 a.m. Sunday the elections board has said it has found a 17 vote gain in the manual recount for Gore on a one percent check, and will meet again on Monday for a full recount.
Meanwhile, Duval County, Fla. -- which apparently is strongly Republican according to the Associated Press -- has turned up just about as many invalidated ballots as in Palm Beach County, so I'm sure we're going to end up with a court order mandating either hand recount there as well or a hand count in neither location.
Maybe we can run the country for the next four years like Phil Wrigley ran the 1966 Chicago Cubs, with no manager, just a bunch of coaches.
I'm saying if you MENTALY or on your calculator subtrack all the origional nader votes from the re-voted Gore total and Gore still beats Bush your arguement will not have any merit.
Wrigley's "college of coaches" system was used from 1961 through 1965. Leo Durocher became manager in 1966 and was, by his own definition, a nice guy that year; i. e., the Cubs finished last, the first team in history to finish behind the Mets.
(Problem with a revote in one FL county is that they will KNOW that the way they vote will affect the overall outcome. So you have to expand it to all of FL. But THEY will know that how they vote affects the overall outcome. Therefore, the only solution is a second national election.)
I agree, it all doesn't work. So the honorable thing to do (whoever is declared President) is not to decide how to give away the surplus without a mandate, and just pay off the national debt until the 2002 election. Anyone disagree?
A falling surplus under Bush would be the equivalent of a rising crime rate under Rudy's successor. There would be outrage.
Well, they can always settle the matter VIA a duel (ala Hamilton- Burr). With any luck at all they'll ......................................
Either candidate would lack legitimacy. A Gore victory on a disputed recount would be nearly as bad as a Bush victory.
One reason people are going nuts is that a Bush victory would give Republicans total control, with both houses of Congress. While they are unlikely to agree enough among themselves to make significant policy changes, they could agree to target funding for Democratic voting states, places, and people, right or wrong.
Remember, the 1994 "small government" revolution consisted solely of cutting funds to the poor, with exceptions for rural areas where many poor whites live. Pork and privilege was basically untouched. The Republicans tried to slash transit funds for New York, despite the fact that when you add all infrastructure funds together New York has been a big loser for 50 years. When faced with a budget problem a couple of years ago, the chief Republican proposal was to cut the earned income tax credit for the working poor.
Here's where W. could really show he is a winner. He could agree he doesn't have a mandate, and to show a willingness to work with the other side, he and Cheney could throw control of the Senate to the Democrats by agreeing to support a moderate Democrat for President Pro-Tempore (ie. Lieberman?). He would show he was willing to work together for the good of the country, rather than ignoring the wishes of 50.2 percent of the voters (and 75 percent of the stupid non-voters).
Plus, with Trent Lott out of the way, he'd cement his control over the Republicans once and for all.
he and Cheney could throw control of the Senate to the Democrats by agreeing to support a moderate Democrat for President Pro-Tempore (ie. Lieberman?).
If it turns out that the Senate is tied (if the Democrat wins Washington), then the Pro-tempore would be a Democrat anyway. Congressional officers are chosen on the day that Congress first convenes. On that day, Al Gore will still be the Vice President and still cast the tie breaking vote.
But as soon as Lieberman becomes VP, the governor of Connecticut will appoint a Republican to take his place. That's why the stories last Wednesday said no matter what happens with Bush and Gore, Lott will remain majority leader (not really that bad for the Democrats, since `ol Trent is as dumb as a box of rocks a lot of the time)
I know.
Politically, the Majority Leader is a lot more important than the Pro-tempore, but it is the Pro-Tempore who will cast the tie breaking vote if the Vice President doesn't show up.
The Pro-Tempore is a Senator who already would have voted, so he couldn't break a tie.
So how were ties broken in the 47th Senate, which was tied and where there was no Vice President for most of it?
The constitution doesn't mention it. At least not clearly.
I believe that if the measure ties, and the VP is not there, it just doesn't pass. (Same applies in the house if it ties: just doesn't pass, there is no VP involvement). Pro Tem is basically a ceremonial office, I believe always given to the senior senator. The fact that Strom is Pro Tem should tell you something....
Larry's idea may not work technically, but he still has a point. Bush could push the Senate to give a few committe chairs to the Dems, for instance.
Trent may indeed be good for the Democrats. But I would not say that he is good for the country.
My rule of thumb is: Anyone who's had Dick Morris as their campaign and policy consultant (that's Trent Lott, Jesse Helms and Bill Clinton, if you'rs scoring) probably has the core beliefs and/or political scruples of a toaster.
He did absolutely nothing wrong. His crime was only that he didn't comply with the high "moral standards" of the puritanical idiots that think they run this country.
He was obviously trying to promore the concept of Full Service gas station laws. A very worthy cause.
No, I'm not talking about Morris' carnal love of podiatal digits. I mean his "white hands" ad for Helms in the N.C. Senate race in 1990, which was worse than anything Lee Atwater (and Al Gore, for that matter) did with the Willie Horton ad, along with Morris' advice to Lott and Clinton not to stand on any principles they might have as members of the Republican and Democratic parties, but to "triangulate" and basically co-opt the other side's position, even if that's not what the people who elected you want you to do.
Politics is the art of compromise, but when there's no priciple a polictican will risk their career for, it tends to make their supporters even more cynical than they already are.
Dick Morris= ***SLEAZEBALL***
And if he could pull it off, and govern, he'd probably get another 4 years.
Unfortunately, he owes the religious right big time for giving him south carolina. And with no mandate, and without the maverick streak that McCain showed us (YES I KNOW MCCAIN DOESN'T LIKE AMTRAK), its really hard to imagine Bush challenging his party that way.
Not revoting in Palm Beach County would be to ultimately disregard the laws and to hurt the political process for many years.
The Palm Beach ballots were illegal under Florida law. The law clearly and unambiguously states that places to mark selection for candidate shall be on the right. It has nothing to do with confusion.
Republicans have shown themselves to be PURE HYPOCRITES. When projections showed that Bush could win the popular vote and lose the electoral votes, Republicans were crying that this would be an injustice and they would fight it to the finish, even though the Constitution clearly says that would have no case. Now that the tables are turned, do you think the Republicans are crying injustice? Certainly not!
If Gore gets what he deserves, which is the Presidency, the people will remember that he was elected with both popular and electoral mandates. Everybody will remember how justice was served.
If Bush wins the presidency, he'll just be the third son of a president to lose the popular vote, and the second to "lose" to a Tennessee Democrat.
Actually, with over 1 million absentee votes still uncounted in California, most of those from conservative Orange and San Diego counties, there is the possibility by this time next week Gore could have won Florida while the popular vote swung to Bush's side. Then we would get the hilarious sight of both parties completely reversing their stances (and Senator-elect Hillary would suddenly decide, golly, gee maybe that them there Electoral College thing isn't such a bad idea after all).
Listen Pork, the ballots were put into effect by a Democratic commissioner in that county, and it's the same ballot they use in Chicago, where the former corrupt mayor's son comes from, and is now fulminating about going to court. A voter is supposed to be able to read and if there is something they don;t understand there are poll watchers there to help them. Cut out the crap. Bush has won fair and square under the existing laws. I do favor the abolition of the Electoral College. It is an anachronism of a time when our slave holding founding fathers didn't trust the judgment of the people.
No matter who designed and endorsed the ballot, having 19,000 people's vote not count because of a specific mistake does not serve the interest of democracy. If the 19,000 votes were to turn the tide for Bush I would still feel that a re-vote would be the "right" thing to do. Sure I would be mad as hell and would feel pissed at the Republicans, but when an election is this close nobody should win or loose because of something like this.
Its election irregularities like this that bring dictators to power. When a mistake, no matter how trivial, has the power to descide an election, the mistake needs to be eliminated.
Listen Pork, the ballots were put into effect by a Democratic commissioner in that county, and it's the same ballot they use in Chicago
That is just a lie perpetrated by the Republicans, and they have even retracted it.
WRONG. Chicago (as well as the rest of Cook County) uses similar butterfly ballots. Many places throughout the US do. However, all the presidential candidates here were listed on only on the left-hand side of the holes, making it very easy to understand which holes to punch for which candidates.
There is a section near the end of our ballots for judicial rentention that lists seveal dozen judges up for retention using alternating sides similar to the ballots in Palm Beach, and it was very easy to get the holes confused, even for a college-educated guy with 20/20 vision such as myself.
The only fair solution would be A) a re-vote in Palm Beach County, or B) (ideally) a statewide runoff between Bush and Gore, or C) a judge assigning those 19,000 double-punched ballots to Gore and Buchanan based on their voting percentages in the rest of the state. Of course the Republicans will do anything to block any proposal, because they know they'd lose. And this is the party that supposedly trusts the people and not the government. (Of course, the Democrats would be doing the exact same thing if the roles were reversed.)
On a somwhat on-topic vein, it's interesting to note that Nader was the only candidate who called for improved mass transit as a central plank of his party's platform. I don't care for Nader personally, but the Green Party is looking better and better.
-- David
Chicago!
Sorry, I cannot accept testaments to Nixon's statesmanship. He certainly was skillful in his dealings with China. But he also used the powers of the presidency to try to steal the '72 election. The fact that he did not need to steal the election is hardly relevant. He loved to spin his history so I don't put much faith in his (or his family's) explanations of the events of 1960.
Look, as a very partisan Democrat, I really really hope Gore doen't drag this out. Wait till the absentee ballots come in, look around for fraud, and if you don't have the votes, concede. Saying he should concede now is ridiculous. Saying that Nixon acted morally better than Gore is acting is awfully far off the mark.
Bull@#%^&$%^&@#!!!!!! I know Democrats hate Nixon and what he did with Watergate was outrageeous, BUT THE FACT REMAINS HE DID SHOW STATESMANSHIP IN 1960 when he refused to battle what many historians now believe was a tainted election. You hate him, I despise Clinton, but I will give the devil his due as a great politician. Give Nixon's decision in 1960 the credit that;s due.
BUT HE DIDN"T STOP HIS PARTY FROM CHALLENGING THE ELECTION! If the Republican suit had come out in Nixon's favour do you whink he would have turned down the presidency? Hell no!
He was wrong to do what he did, he should have challenged it to the end. And I say that even though he was a Republican.
Democracy cannot function when elections can be tainted. If the elections are not challenged until they are right (and that means in Bush won questionable places too!), we risk having the same kind of "Democratic Republic" as the former Democratic Republic of Germany (East Germany).
For why do you say bad thing about DDR? DDR is not corrupt! DDR is strong!
NOTE: Dutche Democratik Republik is my favourite east bloc country.
Reagan said "Tear this wall down, Mr. Gorbachev". and he obliged there is no more DDR, Jersey, I'm beginning to worry about you.
How about all of us chipping in and buying Jersey Mike a one way ticket to Pyongyang?
Yo, Beach, here's my 10 bucks
I never said it was still around, I only said it was my favourite East Bloc nation.
I never said it was still around, I only said it was my favourite East Bloc nation.
That's like saying you have a favorite flesh eating disease.
If you go back and READ your history book you will see that the Party did challenge the vote in many close districts in court and then lost. The party descided it would be best if Nixon did not challenge the votes himself because A) the case wasn't very strong and B) they wanted to preserve his image for future elections. Its wasn't an example of character, just a sneaky political move to have his cake and eat it to. I admire Al Gore for standing up for what may in fact be his. If people have good reason to feel that they have been wronged or cheated they should stand up and fight instead of letting the man walk all over them.
Propaganda straight from DNC headquarter where a Jerseyite, who should be cringing with shame as the way that Corzine fellow of yours bought his way in, mouths bromides that are completely off the mark. Nixon never challenged the ballots in Texas and Cook County (Chicago). Very few Presidential losers ever get a second chance, so he wasn't doing it for his own fortune. What he did was statemanlike. I don't a hoot in hell what you Democrats say about that. It showed courage. The 1960 Election was tainted, so say many historian and observers of that election from both Texas and Illinois. I happened to be a Democrat at that time and reveled in JFK's winning. But history has shown that might have been a tainted election. That's a fact.
Nixon didn't challenge the ballots, the Republican Party did. The result would have been the same if the party challenge won in court. The only differance was Nixon acted like a slippery worm instead of being honest about how he felt.
I have no problem abut Corsine. Now we know for a fact that there is at least one senator who HASN'T BEEN BOUGHT BY THE SPECIAL INTERESTS. He also pumped about 70 million non-government dollars into the local economy which is probably more than Franks can say. I voted for Florio in the primary and I would have liked to see him win, but I have no problem w/ what Corsine did. Its a shame Florio and Corsine didn't work together in the primary because they are both good people and I would have liked one in the Senate and one as NJ governor.
PS: This "progaganda" came from ABC news on election night.
"Nixon could have done the same thing in 1960 when there was evidence of some real fraud in Texas and Illinois, but he was a statesman and decided it would hurt the country."
I'll probably regret stooping down to this level, but for the record Nixon was anything but amicable regarding the 1960 election. He conceeded not because he was such a "statesman", but because even with Illinois he wouldn't have won the election. Minnessota had a clear victory for Kennedy (as did Texas by the way.) And the charges of election fraud in Illinois are anything but conclusive.
Anyway, Nixon was bitter about the 1960 election until the day he died 35 years later.
Andrew
["Nixon could have done the same thing in 1960 when there was evidence of some real fraud in Texas and Illinois, but he was a statesman"]
NIXON WAS A FELON!!!!
Worse than that, if Lieberman was elected, his replacement would be appointed by the Republican governor. But it looks like that won't happen.
Yet the Democrats will pick up a seat if/when Strom Thurmond kicks the bucket. South Carolina's Democratic governor would appoint a replacement. Much the same is true in North Carolina; Jesse Helms isn't as old as Strom Thurmond (heck, no one is, except for the occasional Galapagos tortoise), but he's said to be in very poor health.
Jesse Helms isn't as old as Strom Thurmond ... but he's said
to be in very poor health.
Bro. Jesse has had some well-publicized health problems but I would hardly characterize him as being in poor health. And in North Carolina the Governor is tradition-bound to appoint someone from the same party as the person who held the office previously.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jesse Helms isn't as old as Strom Thurmond ... but he's said
to be in very poor health.
Bro. Jesse has had some well-publicized health problems but I would hardly characterize him as being in poor health. And in North Carolina the Governor is tradition-bound to appoint someone from the same party as the person who held the office previously.
I had heard that he has cancer - Little Man 'Tate, same as Rudy Giuliani. In someone who must be pushing 80, that sounds mighty serious.
Prostate cancer in a man pushing 80 is frequently not treated. The biopsy sample is tested to determine whether it is fast or slow growing, and if slow, a man of that age will usually die of some other cause first. Otherwise, drug and/or radiation treatment can arrest the growth. This, of course, assumes it was caught early and hasn't mestastesized. Then all bets are off.
Every man over 40 should get a periodic PSA blood test.
Prostate cancer in a man pushing 80 is frequently not treated. The biopsy sample is tested to determine whether it is fast or slow growing, and if slow, a man of that age will usually die of some
other cause first. Otherwise, drug and/or radiation treatment can arrest the growth. This, of course, assumes it was caught early and hasn't mestastesized. Then all bets are off.
Well, speaking of expected years one has left, Jesse is 79, an elderly man by any standards ... yet he's young enough to be Strom's son!!
Yet somehow I suspect that Strom will last longer. He might be the human equivalent of a bristlecone pine, some of which have been core-dated as being over 4,000 years old.
Which isn't to say that age can never be a disadvantage in politics. Delaware Senator Roth (of IRA fame) lost in this week's election largely because he was considered too old for the job at "just" 78. Of course, the fact that he fainted twice during campaign appearances didn't help :-)
Strom has been hospitalized recently, so he's apparently starting to age. It's hard to believe that he ran for president in 1948!
In my American History class we learned that a Senator Strom Thurmond helped block a civil rights bill in 1948. It took me a second or 2 to realize that name was still familliar. Evil, racist Republican or not, it would still be cool to have a 100 year old Senator.
Hey Jersey, don't pull that crap on me. Strom was a Democrat when he pulled all those shenanigans five decades ago. He has had an African-American press secretary, and many blacks on his staff. He also gets 30% of the black vote when he runs, very good f or a Republican. He has grown as a politician just like George Wallace of your party. Get for fact straight Jersey Mike Corzine.
He was a Boll Weevil Democrat who left the party when it's philosophy moved away from segregation and went Republican as that party came to be seen as the voice of reaction.
Amen to that. I get a PSA every year, and since I have an enlarged one, I have had three biopsies. No fun, but necessary. What you said was words of wisdom. I hope everyone on this line understands that.
Worse than that, if Lieberman was elected, his replacement would be appointed by the Republican governor. But it looks like that won't happen.
Yet the Democrats will pick up a seat if/when Strom Thurmond kicks the bucket. South Carolina's Democratic governor would appoint a replacement. Much the same is true in North Carolina; Jesse Helms isn't as old as Strom Thurmond (heck, no one is, except for the occasional Galapagos tortoise), but he's said to be in very poor health.
(At least we can expect DART to see a modest increase in Federal funding, but kiss the 2nd Ave. Subway goodbye for at least 4 more years.)
After four years, the current MTA capital plan will expire. Despite the defeat of the Bond Issue, the City, State and MTA will be so deep in debt at that point that we will be lucky to avoid the planned shrinkage of the system (with rising ridership), let alone improvements.
Maybe they'll take the hint and drop the refinancing.
I would say the best you could hope for is having some funds thrown the MTA's way in 2002, mostly for Metro North/LIRR projects (Grand Central connection, anyone?) in order to improve Pataki's re-election chances with suburban New York voters.
BTW -- Did anyone see the story on the news Friday about the teacher in Georgia who designed a butterfly ballot similar to the one used in Palm Beach County, put Disney names and pictures next to the punch holes, with arrows pointing from each character to the proper hole and then asked his 7- and 8-year-olds to vote. Every single second grader in the class punched out the exact hole they intended to by matching up the arrow with the proper character.
Based on that, I believe if Jerry Springer ever decides to quit his TV show and get back into politics, Palm Beach County is the place to run.
Pardon my off-topic political post, but everybody who makes fun of the elderly morons in Palm Beach County who are incompetant to vote is apparently unaware of the fact that thousands of ballots were misaligned in the machine and the voter had to guess which hole the arrow was pointing to. 20,000 of them guessed wrong.
Recent posts on subtalk concerned Mississippi getting a Nissan plant even though it is a poor state. I have lived in Mississippi and Louisiana, both poor states. Yet, they have modern voting equipment, in most places consisting of paper ballots that are marked in pencil and can be read by machine and automatically tabulated. Palm beach county is a predominately democratic county in a wealthier area with an elected election commissioner who approved the ballot. Why are they using obsolete voting equipment? For the next election I hope they do a better job. It is too late now to complain.
As far as what party will do more for transit I don't think either one has done much. It is true that in general Republicans have been less sympathetic to transit. The democrats on the other hand say they are in favor of public transit. Unfortunately, they don't put their money where their mouth is because they have other prioities for tax dollars such as health care. New York City and State has had democratic governors and mayors for many years along with democratic US Representatives and Senators during democratic presidencies. The second avenue was not built during their administrations.
For a conservative pro transit perspective, go to http://trolleycar.org
Its that like the anti-nycsubway.org?
Not at all.While I'm a Democrat, People should know that many conservatives support rail transportation. http://trolleycars.org is one example. for another,remember that the 2000 Republican platform had a pro- Amtrak plank in it, We may need it to beat Bu$h with if he tries to defund Amtrak. Furthermore, The Interstate 2 proposal by Gil Carmichael (Daddy's FRA Administrator) is one of the more exciting HSR proposals out there, calling for a national system of dedicated high speed routes. Fight for your trains, learn the issues, and transit could do very well under Republicans. Welfare reform needs good transit to work.
Apparently, they also don't have a way for someone to change their vote before leaving the booth.
In New York City, until you pull the voting lever back to the left to finish, you can always pull up the little black lever for the candidate you voted for and then pick someone else.
And not to mention the fact that in New York, the machine is designed to lock all of the other candidates once you've chosen one for the office. If you try to vote twice, you'll notice and you'll pull up the wrong lever to reverse it (which I did on Tuesday just to play with the system).
If that is the case, then the blame shifts from the stupidity of the voters to the incompetence of the election officials who alligned the ballots with the candidate's names in the machines (the cards are supposed to be locked into their proper place in the slot with a pair of pegs at the front of the slot and peg holes at the top of the card).
That does make the Palm Beach voters look better, but we're still in the same situation where challenging election results based on incompetence rather than deliberate vote fraud is asking for a slew of similar claims all across the U.S. New Mexico's having the same problem with election officials errors, though their lack of electoral votes makes the problems less publicized.
Back on topic now -- Whie Bush was Governor he did work with Democrats and Republicans in the state to keep Amtrak from shutting down the Texas Eagle, which runs from Chicago to San Antonio via Dallas-Fort Worth. The state agreed to put up half the funding, so he may not be as anti-rail as some people think.
Now Republican House Whip Tom DeLay -- he's the one who single-handedly blocked Houston from getting a light-rail system proposal up and running this past summer, even while the Gore campaign was hitting Bush for the city's high ozone pollution level. In other words, he hates mass transit so much, he even sabotaged a measure that might have help the national PR for his party's nominee.
DeLay, his friends and most of his consituents drive cars, so he sees nothing wrong in federal funds for a new Interstate 69 from Laredo to Indianapolis (I beleive building school buses is the only two things those areas have in common). But apparently he thinks only Democrats would use mass transit, so there's no point in giving it a penny. He and right-wing activist/trolly buff Richard Vigure really need to sit down and have a talk some day...
Now Republican House Whip Tom DeLay -- he's the one who single-handedly blocked Houston from getting a light-rail system proposal up and running this past summer, even while the Gore
campaign was hitting Bush for the city's high ozone pollution level. In other words, he hates mass transit so much, he even sabotaged a measure that might have help the national PR for his party's nominee.
I've never been in Houston, but from what I understand of the place it is about as unsuitable for rail transit as you possibly could get, even more so than Los Angeles. Both jobs and housing are greatly dispersed in a geographical sense. Commuting tends to be suburb-to-suburb rather than suburb-to-downtown, and no one has yet figured out how to make mass transit even remotely workable in the former scenario.
There is a high chance that a Houston light rail system would turn out to be a costly boondoggle, attracting far fewer riders than predicted and with a farebox cost recovery rate not too much over the single digits. That would be counterproductive for rail transit nationwide, as opponents of any project would be all too eager to use Houston as an argument against the project.
In my view, it's far better to use the money for more-feasible projects elsewhere.
DeLay, his friends and most of his consituents drive cars, so he sees nothing wrong in federal funds for a new Interstate 69 from Laredo to Indianapolis (I beleive building school buses is the only two things those areas have in common).
Interstate 69 has been proposed as a means of handling the huge increase in truck traffic to and from Mexico that's resulted from NAFTA.
>>Interstate 69 has been proposed as a means of handling the huge
increase in truck traffic to and from Mexico that's resulted from
NAFTA. <<
BAD PLAN. Those trucks belong on piggyback trains. We don't have breathable oxygen to waste on increased truck traffic(or single user cars for that matter).
Houston is indeed a fine example of stupid planning run amok.
>>there is a high chance that a Houston light rail system would turn out
to be a costly boondoggle, attracting far fewer riders than predicted and
with a farebox cost recovery rate not too much over the single digits.<<
Well, probably, but if Houston has outstripped LA as the smog capital--W/O the advantage of mountains trapping air, then the costs in respiratory disease need to be factored in. The idea that public transit is somehow outside the spectrum of civilized amenities like sewage and clean water is obsolete. Only a libertarian would expect such public necessities to be profitable.
Houston's main business area runs from downtown out towards the southwest side of the city. Heavy rail would be a flop, but a light rail system defintely could draw people, since aside from competing with L.A. for the smog title, Houston also is one of the nation's biggest areas of road rage.
BTW -- The pollution comes from both vehicle emissions and the oil and pertochemical refineries on the east side of town. The east side of Houston is Texas' answer to Elizabeth, N.J. -- just substitute the Houston Ship Channel for the Arthur Kill.
Houston, and Texas' approach to air pollution in general, is really the only thing that actually scares me about our probable next president.
Back on topic (sorry 'bout that): Peter is right that scarce transit $$$ should be spent carefully. But...that would mean all of them would be spent in the cities that already have transit (at least it would if construction costs were not higher in denser cities). And given that Houston has a relatively sizeable and dense* downtown, with horrendous air pollution and congested highways, I question whether it is such a bad place for light rail. Is it really more expensive than expanding highways, especially given the cost of the air pollution?
*the sidewalks of downtown Houston are deserted at rush hour. Its really odd. Everyone in the skyscrapers goes right to their car, parked in the garage in their building, and drives right away. The availability of parking downtown might be the biggest problem for transit in Houston. Houston is just about the only place on earth I would never consider living. What a hell hole.
Yes, but thruway costs are borne by state-issued bonds backed by thruway toll revenue. The construction may not even require a bond issue. Funding thruway expansion is less difficult than funding the subway.
-Hank
(Yes, but thruway costs are borne by state-issued bonds backed by thruway toll revenue. The construction may not even require a bond issue. Funding thruway expansion is less difficult than funding the subway.)
I wish. Cuomo raided the Thruway authority to fund the non-profiteers by "selling" assets to it, and having the authority sell bonds backed by fares. Pataki is doing similar damage to the MTA, and worse. I guess that makes it "fair" -- the entire state is screwed.
As I'VE said in the past,why should we as tax payers pay for something we paid TWICE FOR? Ether the T.A builds the damn thing or they don't,its a damn shame it should take so long for the MAN to figure out if he wants to spend the money or not. The MTA DOES NOT HAVE THE PEOPLE'S BEST INTREST AT HEART OR MIND .And dont try to blame this problem on the ''NIMBYS''.
Most bridges that carry roads OVER the thruway have earth fill approaches: widening the Thruway would entail TOTAL replacement of these spans. KA CHING!!!
Can anyone suggest the best subway route from the Port Authority Bus terminal to 109 E. 16th. St. Thank you!
First, I am assuming that the 16th Street you are referring to is in Manhattan, not one of the other boroughs. That being said, I'm not overly familiar with that area of Manhattan, but... since you indicated that it is East 16th Street, I am further assuming it is close to the river. Therefore, I would suggest taking the A/C/E to 14th Street, change for the L (Canarsie line), and take that to 1st Avenue (the last stop in Manhattan), then walk north two blocks to 16th.
If it's in some other borough, you'll need to get a Hagstrom's (might not be a bad idea anyway if you aren't familiar with the City).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, you would overshoot slightly. 109 E. 16th St. would be just east of Union Square Park.
Depending on how much luggage you're dealing with, the fastest way would probably be to walk the underground corridor from the Port Authority to Times Square, get on the rear of the N or R and take it to 14th St., then get off at the rear (16th St.) exit and walk across the park.
Lots of luggage? Then the A/C/E to 14th St. and the L to Union Square would be best.
Where's the dividing line between East and West?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fifth Avenue. Numbers go from there and go up to the next block of 100 at each avenue, except Lexington and Madison.
So 100 is between 4th and 3rd. In this case, Union Square East (4th) and Irving Place (3.5). On the north side of the street.
Broadway divides Houston, 3rd and 4th Streets.
Thanks. Like they say, when you get to be my age, the memory is the second thing to go, and I forget the first.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Go to: http://www.whdh.com/news/local6.shtml for the story (before the link expires) -Nick
KYW and WRTI (Shadow Traffic)both reported this morning that subway-surface lines were transferring their passengers to the Market Street subway at 40th Street because of "equipment problems" in the tunnel.
The new (CBTC) signal system was being worked on again last night. Transfers at 40th St are the standard pattern after 9pm when they're working on the signals. I guess this means they screwed up or at least didn't finish the night's work in time for the moring rush hour.
I hope this isn't a sign of things to come with the first CBTC system in the northeast...
What's CBTC? Is this some moving block thing?
I wonder if the 40th Street thing was really a problem for commuters. Because at school, when there is a major transit delay, the principal (who is actually known as the president) will make an announcement condoning people's late arrivals due to transit problems, yet he made no announcement about the subway surface tunnel closure. Its either it didn't have much of an effect, or not enough people use all 5 subway surface lines to warrant the need for condoning late arrivals.
Construction to extend the HBLR to 22nd Street Bayonne is scheduled to begin in 2001 instead of 2002, with completion of the southward extension now scheduled to be 18 months earlier than previously planned. Story in Jersey Journal. Ridership now 6800 per day.
The MR LI group, sponcered in part by Trainland, has a nice web site that outlines there frequent videos that appear on the same Public Access TV station as Transit Transit (at least on my #71 in LI).
Apparently the main photographer had tickets to one of the Subway Series games & also went to Manhattan. I just view a number of this photos from LIRR and #7 line. Here is one of the Stardust Red Bird
Also lots of links to other sites, try it.
Mr t__:^)
Opps, didn't work, must have done something wrong, well try this:
Model RxR of LI
Saw the MRLI 1/2 hour show this past Friday (was at 8 PM on Westbury's Channel 71, i.e. Public Access):
Nice piece inside Stardust dinner
Subway Series: Many shots and interviews at Grand Central Station on #7, shots inside #7, etc.
Also Greenburg model train & toy show at Hosftra Univ.
I recomend that you all view it if you can.
Mr t__:^)
I found three articles that I felt would have interest to some of my SubTalk/BusTalk friends in the Sept/Oct issue of the "trade" Metro Magazine.
This one was written by Transit Transit's Director, Charles Seaton. It's a nice general article that gives the reader a overview of what they try to do & indicates that suits & politations at the highest level in NY seem to like what they are doing since 1994 in an effort to try and provide something of interest to many of the 22 million homes in the area that the program has the ability to reach. I have to agree that most every month I find enough meat in the 1/2 hour eposides to keep my interest.
The article also states that they use a lot of "interns" and employee "volunteers" ... I wonder what Vinny Voltage realy does at the TA ?
The $100,000 budget serves to prove the point that it isn't a full time job for any of the crew we see every month.
Anyhow, Charlie, Andy, Ozzi, Vinny, Theara, Winston & the rest keep up the good work !
Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with TT or T Squared/T2 as they call it internally.
Mr (single) t__;-)
>>>I wonder what Vinny Voltage realy does at the TA ? <<<
Vinnie, in addition to his workshops at the Transit Museum, takes his show on the road and goes out to schools, etc. Promotes safe subway riding, things like that.
Peace,
ANDEE
thurston... i was interested to hear that transit transit is referred to internally as t squared or t2, which has a nice algebraic flavor...
speaking of algebra:
Solve for t:
t2 = 0
I would say that t=0, since any number multiplied by zero equals zero.
Speaking of TT, I'm surprised no one brought up the old West End local.
Don't they all work for the "communitication" division of the TA??
That is what their van said on the side with the TT logo as well.
I like it for the behind the curtian shots of non public areas the do.
Yes, me too. For a subway fan who would love to get down on the tracks, etc. this is a close as most of us can come without doing something wrong or dangerous.
Mr t__:^)
Technically, the TransitTransit crew belongs to the Public Affairs Division of NYCT, which -- most probably -- falls under the Communications Division of the parent, MTA.
BMTman
Yes, a tip of the hat is due to Charles "Charles in Charge" Seaton, and his astute accomplices, Winston, Andy, Stef, et al.
BMTman
As of 11 o-clock The Great War was official over...82 years ago. We need to remember that World War 1 does not get anywhere near the respect it deserved. Every day more veterans of the great war pass away and soon there will be none left. So run down to your local senoir center and get some first hand stories of WW1 before they are forever lost.
And here's a news item:
HALTING TRAINS TO HONOR VETERANS
Canadian Pacific Railway employees will bring all trains across Canada and the United States to a halt at 11:00 local time on November 11, observing two full minutes of silence in honor of those who have served their country in war. The silence will be followed by one long train whistle blast as a railway salute to the nations' freedom fighters.
"Our employees wanted again this year to do something special to pay tribute to the millions of Canadians and Americans who served to protect our freedom," said Rob Ritchie, President and Chief Executive Officer of CPR. "Our hope is that the sound of our train whistles blowing in hundreds of communities in Canada and the U.S. will unite our thoughts in a moment of appreciation for their sacrifices."
This will be the second time CPR has brought its trains to a halt in honor of Canadian and American war veterans on November 11 -- Remembrance Day in Canada and Veterans Day in the U.S. The gesture began last year as a way to mark the final November 11 observation of the century and of the millennium.
"We are now making this an annual salute by the CPR family to Canadian and U.S. veterans of the world wars and other armed conflicts," Mr. Ritchie said. All CPR trains, as well as locomotives in the railway's yards and terminals, will be brought to a full stop in a safe location. There are about 250 trains moving daily on the CPR network. The railway has a fleet of about 1,600 locomotives in road and yard service.
Some 33,127 Canadian Pacific employees served in the last century's two world conflicts alone. Sadly, 1,774 sacrificed their lives. Railway shops were converted into munitions factories and company ships ferried troops and supplies across the oceans. A total of 27 Canadian Pacific ships were lost in the two world wars. "Canadians and Americans stand as free and peaceful people. As the train whistles blow on Remembrance Day and Veterans Day, it will be a reminder that our freedom should never be taken for granted," Mr. Ritchie said.
It's a shame that A) they can't also honor WW1 by name and B) US railroads and/or transit systems can't do the same.
I was misinformed by a co-student as to the date.
Has any one any knowledge of which was the closest Interurban to the NYC metro area . When did it last run? Are there and remmants of it left, stations, cars, barns...
Would the former New York, Westchester & Boston Qualify as an Interurban?
I'd like to see those modeled in "O" gauge . The few photos NYCSUWAY.org are handsome looking cars .
avid
There is such a fine line between an Interurban and a Commuter line.
Many have thought the South Shore (C.S.S.& S.B.)a commuter line, but is most often spoke of as an Interurban. Same with the Illinois Central. I understand that it is not the cars that make the determination but the proportion of city track to suburban track. If that be the case, the NYW&B certainly could be called interurban. The cars don't fit the usual description of interurbans, but neither do the South Shore's.
Joe C.
Actually these two present the disticntion very clearly. The IC "Suburban" service (their terminology) was always designed for worker bees and shoppers headed to the downtown(the steam version preceded the Loop) area although the U of Chicago and associated Hyde Park area also was and is a 'destination'. A small segment of a large railroad, the system after electrification was largely separate from other operations--separate employee timetable, crew lists etc. CSS&SB by contrast was a freight and passenger rr in competition with others for intercity business as far easr as South Bend. In prior years this included promoting summer excursions to the Indiana Dunes, football specials to South Bend for Notre Dame games, and subsidiary bus service to Benton Harbor Michigan. As rail usage for excursions has dried up, it is indeed a commuter operation today, although IIRC still also a freight ROW serving several major online customers (coal, iron ore).
A true electric interurban was a blend of streetcar and passenger train. Like a streetcar, such a train would trundle down streets through the center part of town, then once it reached the outskirts, it would run along a private ROW. The South Shore, the last remaining electric interurban, does exactly that, although its trains no longer run on city streets in South Bend or East Chicago - only in Michigan City, on a single track. A bypass around East Chicago, running parallel to the Indiana Toll Road, was completed in 1956, almost 30 years after ROW was acquired, and street running in South Bend ended in 1970. I still remember when the old Big Orange cars rumbled into downtown South Bend along LaSalle Ave.
I have ridden both those operations in the 1970's. A real treat!
The book, "The South Shore, the Last Interurban" is wonderful and quite informative. Can someone tell me if there is an IC counterpart?
The NYW&B never had street running, always had high level platforms and did use private ROW. I guess it is safe to say it was a true commuter operation.
Joe C.
I have that South Shore book you speak of. It covers the history of that railroad through 1970. The 70s were not a good time for the South Shore. Dwindling ridership and aging rolling stock very nearly brought passenger service to an end; in fact, the parent company at the time, Chessie, petitioned the ICC in 1976 to do just that. To make a long story short, the railroad recovered nicely, earning the nickname "The Little Railroad That Could". New cars entered service in 1982-83, and more were ordered a few years ago.
My aunt was a regular weekend commuter on the South Shore during our last few years in South Bend. In its heyday, the South Shore offered hourly service from South Bend to Chicago; you didn't even have to look at the timetable. If you missed a train, there'd be another one. She says there were times in the mid-60s when she was the lone remaining passenger on the train between Michigan City and South Bend. I rode on it once, a round trip to Chicago on April 1 and 2, 1967, just before we moved to New Jersey.
AFAIK there is no book on IC Electric per se. There IS excellent coverage in Limiteds Along The Lakefront, The Illinois Central in Chicago, Alan R. Lind Transport History Press 1986. Some of the very early photos are amazing--particularly in my mother's South Shore neighborhood before most of the developement occurred. BTW it was my grandfather who sued the IC at the Ill CC to order installation of crossing gates along E. 71st St. On of the pleasures of my youth was standing at the 'raifan door' next to the cab in a string of the old green cars on theexpress, or special tracks. They moved!
Was the defunct ROW ever the subject of a subtalk walk? Could it now even be still walked or has the ROW gone into a mutitude of private ownership? I'm wondering , when it fell , what happened to is rolling stock?
Thanks for the input.
avid
Well, as you know, the Dyre Avenue line is the surviving remnant of the NYW&B. Some parts of the abandoned ROW can still be seen but most are gone now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1. If you want close, go to the intersection of Northern Blvd. & Woodside. It's just a couple of blocks away from the G/R stop of "Northern" or take a ride on Queens Surface Q66, it is the successor to the trolley company, NY & Queens County. You'll find a "Waiting Room" ... however there's a Pizza Hut inside. The mini-mall behind is where the trolley barn was.
Seriously the towers of the waiting room, the words "Waiting Room" and the name of the trolley company are still there.
2. Interurban vs. Suburban vs. street cars:
Street cars tend to be lower to the ground to reduce the height of the floor as much as possible ... I've seen disabled folks in Boston trying to get into the Green Line trolleys ... yuk. Interurbans & Suburbans sat higher off the ground. The Interurbans had two features that most of the Suburbans usually didn't ... higher speed, plusher apointments inside, i.e. seats, bath rooms, etc.
The Shoreline trolley museum (plug plug) has some of all three. If you call ahead to make sure extra staff is available I'm sure you could get to see them (the Interurbans don't regularly come out to play). Seashore (plug plug) has one very accessable to customers (Doug took a photo of me standing on the back of one this July). I also got inside (it's a work in progress but the differences are very obvious). Unfortunately they are closed for the season.
Mr t__:^)
There was a fascinating interurban line called the Hagerstown & Frederick Rwy that served portions of Washington & Frederick counties in Maryland and Franklin county in Pennsylvania. My wife rode the cars many times to travel between Thurmont and Frederick Maryland. It seemed to be a trolley, interurban & freight line all rolled into one. Besides railroading the company also generated their own electricity. Railroad operations ceased in the early 1960's. The company continued to generate electricity under the name Potomac Edison.
A book about the operation was published about 30 years ago. It had some of the greatest interurban and trolley pictures you can imagine. The book was called Blue Ridge Trolley. I can't remember the author's name but I seem to recall hearing that it was reprinted recently.
"Besides railroading the company also generated their own electricity."
Minor history lesson!
A bunch of the interurbans were also the local electric power company. The biggest example is Chicago's "Insull empire" where one holding company owned, among other companies:
*Electricity: Commonwealth Edison, Northern Indiana Public Service
*Transit: Chicago Rapid Transit, Chicago City Railways (major component of Chicago Surface Lines)
*Interurbans: Chicago, South Shore & South Bend; Chicago, North Shore & Milwaukee; and Chicago, Aurora & Elgin.
The electric portion of these enterprises most often made the profits that covered any losses from operating the interurban or streetcar systems. While a bunch of the interurbans were killed off by the automobile in the 'Twenties, a bunch survived that period too.
Then came the New Deal, where one of the pet theories on the causes of the Depression was interlocking industries. In those dark days, people readily saw how one portion of a conglomerate COULD bring down the entire enterprise, but they didn't see how diversification also allowed prosperous components of a conglomerate to cover the shortcomings of other portions. Along with stuff like Glass-Steagal (sp?) which forced banks out of the insurance business, one New Deal law effectively forbade holding companies from owning electric utilities and interurban/transit companies at the same time and covering the losses of the latter with the profits of the former. This law became known as the "Death Sentence Law" for its unintended but predictable effect on the interurban industry.
The definition of an interurban can become very blurry. Two great examples are Public Service of New Jersey and the Eastern Massachusetts Street Railway. Both of these companies provided local urban service, suburban service and interurban service, all with the same cars. In this case, the definitions are:
Urban: All service within the same built up area.
Suburban: Service provided from a less densely popukated area to a built up area.
Interurban: Service provided between two or more built up areas passing through less densely populated areas.
Gerry
OK, according to the MTA website for this weekend:
-No '7' from the Plaza into Manhattan. To add insult to injury, express only Manhattan-bound from Woodside. (Just what the heck are they DOING on the '7' that seems to knock it out every other weekend?!) This will take effect the next three weekends, including Thanksgiving. With all the extra shopping and tourist volume, this is not the smartest idea.
-All trains running express Manhattan-bound Roosevelt to QP; no service 65th through 36th.
-All 'R's from Queens being turned at 34th.
-All 'N's from Queens being turned at Canal.
-63rd Street/Roosevelt Isle/Queensbridge served only by infrequent shuttle down Broadway to 34th. Sixth Avenue connection broken.
A good weekend to avoid the Queens Boulevard/53rd Street corridor, which will be packed either way with refugees from the '7'. There's also sure to be confusion at the inbound Roosevelt platform, what with trains crossing in front of each other and people reversing direction for the bypassed stops.
Also a good weekend not to get the Queens-bound 'N' at Times Square or Lexington, which will also take up the slack from the truncated '7'. With no 'R' below 34th, the uptown 'N' will be bearing the full load through SoHo, the Village and Flatiron.
Staying off the '7' altogether is imperative, between heavy transferring volume at 74th, displaced local riders turning around at Woodside, and utter confusion at the Plaza.
I promised my son we'd do PATH tomorrow, so it looks like the only good way to do it is park at Ditmars, and take the 'N' to 34th for PATH. We were planning to return to WTC in order to get a requested gift (wife's birthday) at Warners. There's no service at Cortlandt, but no way am I taking the '2' or '3' up to Times and try to squeeze on the 'N' THERE! We could walk a block over to Fulton/Broadway and get an express up to Union Square (FORGET 59th!!), but there's no '5' on Lex this weekend, which would surely overburden the '4'.
Crazy as it sounds, the best thing might be to get the M6 to 6th and Spring, check out the in-sidewalk subway map on Greene between Prince and Spring, and then get the uptown 'N' at Prince. Since it's only the second stop, maybe it won't be too bad. The train will probably be packed by 23rd.
Brooklyn seems to get off pretty light this weekend; closure of Montague is more than compensated by a bonus 'N' running over the Bridge. This is IN ADDITION to the usual 'B' and 'D' service. Lower Bay Ridge does gets shafted with an 'R' shuttle, and outbound West End service is knocked out again, requiring a detour to New Utrecht or Coney.
Bronx loses the through '5' again, which will pack Lex and Lenox. Let's hope affected downtown platforms in the Bronx and uptown platforms along Lex have signs this time. From what I hear, there are few announcements on the downtown '2' or uptown '4' advising people of this. In the past, they've had a special '5' running between 149th/Jerome middle track and Bowling Green to complement Lex '4' service, but this weekend there's only the Dyre shuttle. Guess it's NOT the Mott Haven jughandle they're working on this time.
I know about all these GO's and am going to Manhattan Saturday. I will take the LIRR going, but I don't know what's the best way to get back. I'd probably catch the N at Canal, the beginning, so I can get my own space then transfer to the 7 at QBP.
The 7 train is the equivalent to the N21 bus, it's packed on weekends, especially with migrants from the Jackson heights-Corona area.
And it's gonna spill over to the Queens Blvd IND, so it's gonna be hard to escape the packed conditions. Everytime this 7 train G.O. pops up there is chaos for Queens subway passengers because the 7 is normally packed, now with less service it'll be stuffed. I got enough of these conditions on the N21 bus on weekends. I could take the LIRR back to Great Neck, but then I may not get a seat on the N21.
I wonder if it'll be better if I catch the M60 bus to LGA then the Q48 to Flushing. Or the Q66 at L.I.C.
Then I have the fun ride home on the N21. Last Saturday there were drunk migrants, they were playing with a lighter.
Most city buses don't get so many lowlifes so I'll probably try the M60.
Newsday Page 6-Island briefs
MIGRANTS GET BURNED
Smoking and drinking can really get you in trouble. But a different kind of trouble erupted on an N21 bus going to Glen Cove on Saturday.
Some careless hispanic migrants playing with a lighter, another drinking whiskey, got too close and there was an explosion.
All the garbage littering the floor caught fire. Several passengers, most of them could not speak english, got minor burns.
The bus, 162, had minor smoke damage. Well perhaps the only blessing would be that LI Bus is now overhauling 162 and putting in a new Series 50G engine, which runs alot better than the slow Cummins L10G.
:-O :-O :-O
This is a joke if you don't get it by now!!
Looks like there is good news for the City of Glen Cove. And as you see from the article, they are looking to have a trolley of some sort in their community. Maybe they might consider a trolley bus system instead since since these coaches can maneuver better than regular trolleys on tracks.
http://antonnews.com/glencoverecordpilot/2000/11/03/news/
Sounds like a great idea. Lets hope the NIMBY's don't stomp it out!
As much I hate the sight of it. I thought that I would never see on such a scale as in the 70's and 80's in my life time, but it's coming back slowly. During the last 4 months I saw two #1 trains consisting of R-62a's pulled out of service cause of graffiti. I have also seen 70's and 80's type graffiti on the 2,4,5,N, and D lines. Even with the Zero Tolerance Policy if the graffiti gets worse too many trains will be pulled out of service. I give the MTA credit for keeping up with increased graffiti and I hope that they can continue with the increasing amounts. I am also worried that the R-142 and the soon to be R-143 will be hit too. I hope that the increased graffiti decreases soon, but if this is the beginning of another 70's ad 80's type graffiti movement....there is very little the MTA can do. Even at a fast rate of cleaning there will be trains lined with graffiti.
The MTA has to do what it can. If they don't, it will imply that they've given up. I'd hate to see deja vu all over again, in the words of Yogi Berra.
Talking about deja vu and doing all that it can, Guilliani moving on and a new administration taking over, do you think this will affect the MTA in any kind of way.
A throwback to the 70's and 80's, Crime and graffiti!
Well, it will be another year before there's a new administration in NYC... the mayoral election wasn't this year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Talking about deja vu and doing all that it can, Guilliani moving on and a new administration taking over, do you think this will affect the MTA in any kind of way.
A throwback to the 70's and 80's, Crime and graffiti!
Crime and graffiti aren't necessarily the big risks. I would presume that enough lessons have been learned from the last couple of decades, that even the most limousine-liberalish politicians will understand the need to keep the subways as safe and clean as reasonably possible. A much bigger risk, in my view, is that a Mayor Mark Green (ick!) would make the city so anti-business that its economy would collapse, which soon enough would have plenty of bad consequences for the subway.
(A much bigger risk, in my view, is that a Mayor Mark Green (ick!) would make the city so anti-business that its economy would collapse,
which soon enough would have plenty of bad consequences for the subway.)
You'd better hope Mayor Mark Green is anti-business. What I really fear is a "pro-business" (at least in his mind) Mayor Green. Sort of like a "pro-business" Mayor Dinkins -- willing to hand out tax dollars to any corporation that comes in the door, provided his social engineers decide it is a "strategic industry." I had to work with Dinkins people on some stuff. If they had their way, the New Media industry would not exist in New York today: it didn't fit their "pro-business" strategic plan, and merely allowed landlords to rent scare space to businesses with fewer "social assets."
Those Dinkins "economists" are out there, just waiting to take power and tell us pro-new bunsiness people to got sit in our cubicles for a few years while they bring back good low skill, high pay jobs.
With no Republican candidate for mayor on the horizon outside of Bratton, it will be interesting to see how an Deomcratic primary with a wide-open mayor's seat goes next year.
The last time it happened, back in 1977 when Beame opted against even trying for a new term, the primary ended up as the opposite of the presidential primaries, where Democratic candidates tend to run left of their positions in the general election. Koch ran to the right of his own congressional record against Bella Abzug, and won in part by promising to bring back the death penalty for certain capital murders.
I would guess if Gore is president, that scenario may play out again, while if Bush is president and Pataki is governor, running to the left (which is where Green will be) would make more sense.
With no Republican candidate for mayor on the horizon outside of Bratton, it will be interesting to see how an Deomcratic primary with a wide-open mayor's seat goes next year.
Of all the predicted candidates, New York probably would be best off which Michael Bloomberg. Having a businessman rather than a career politician as mayor would do the city a world of good.
I hope no one I work with sees this ... Bloomberg is persona non grata at my employer, as his company has "poached" some employees from us :-)
Bloomberg would certainly be better than Green for New York in a business sense, though watching him in his occassional TV appearances he comes across as a tad autocratic, which would make him the Democratic answer to Rudy in more ways than one.
Wonder if anyone will ask the mayoral candidates what they think about a Transit Museum annex in the old IRT City Hall station?
Wonder if anyone will ask the mayoral candidates what they think about a Transit Museum annex in the old IRT City Hall station?
I'd be happy if they'd just reopen the loop.
What is needed is stiffer penalties for those who do this kind of activity. We need a posters/signs placed in the cars saying you pay of the crime with time. Nothing should be tolerated. We should New Yorkers have to put up with this nonsense, when other cities like Philly and Boston get to ride clean free cars and we can't. We are both big cities. What makes NYC push these criminals to do this?.....does any one know that answer?..is it the location that causes some sort of physicological differnces?...
Probably because NYC is a big pit of evil and people can't help but be rude or bad. I think that NYC should be abandonned and turned into some sort of urban museum.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!, Way to go Mike, I like that one!
We should all lighten up a little. Respect the past without forgeting how it was enjoy the present and not worry so much about the futur.
It's not all that bad.
Thanks again for the good laugh Mike, that felt good.....
I'm obligated under New Jersey state law to bad mouth New York whenever possible.
Must be the bad water or the worse air.
Don't feel bad, Long Island is not much better in places.
wayne
Did it ever occur to you that part of the problem is that the NYC transit system -- unlike most other American cities -- is a 24-hour operation?
BMTman
The R 142's should have some sort of security system, sorta like a metallic substance that can melt away the graffiti.
Even though I thought of graffiti as art, it is still illegal and a pain in the tuchus (if that is the correct spelling) to remove. Here is a compromise; cover the subway cars with that material that advertisers use that covers the buses, except the material should be blank, that way, the artists have canvas, the transit authority could remove it easy, and have it displayed at the art museum (and the TA could make money on the exibit). And a new covering could beused for more artwork. Sounds weird, but it may work.
I'm sorry, but this is the most stupidest idea I've ever heard. Graffiti at least in my eyes are so dispicable and yet you are encouraging it as an art form. You want canvas? Go paint your own home with graffiti, take some photos, and post them on Subtalk so at least I can better understand what the hell you are talking about.
I've gotta say that 99% of the graffiti that was on the old cars was despicable. But sometimes you would see a train come in and one of the "artists" covered the whole side of the train with a beautiful piece of work. One time while I was waiting on a crowded platform during rush hour, I remember seeing on the 2 train going in the opposite direction an entire car which had the skyline of New York City at sunset painted on it. Even the other passengers on the platform were marveling at the piece.
It's just too bad that the artist couldn't find something constructive to perform at the time. Hopefully the man got his act together and decided to paint on canvas instead of the side of a subway car.
As a matter of fact, one or more of those guys "got their acts together" and are now prized muralists. Some of their work can be seen on legal canvas such as Bodega store walls, billboard ads, or as a background element in a rap-video.
I believe one of them even has a gallery in Los Angeles (where graffiti-art is still part of the "youth lifestyle" out there).
BMTman
The recently-created mural memorializing rap artist Big Pun is an example of this. So are a number of other murals in the Bronx, Brooklyn and Manhattan. I saw a nice one on a wall near Eastern Parkway BMT station (beneath it) - funny looking piece, but interesting enough that I took a picture of it. This one had to be done at the behest/request of the business owner; most of the nicer ones are done in this fashion. Check out the ones advertising the auto repair and car services along the #4 line in the Bronx.
wayne
I have a better idea. JAIL, JAIL WORKS Graffiti S*C*U*M who deface MTA property should GO TO JAIL, then work cleaning subway toilets to work off their room and board.
I always thought of graffiti as an artform, too- but only in the appropiate places. I sometimes wish I had enough money to buy a huge retaining wall somewhere and let artists out at it with their best work. It would be a unique type of public art, and when done by the most talented of the artists, it looks amazing.
Grafitti vandals have never stopped tagging subway cars. Unlike the 1970's/early 80's, the MTA doesn't allow tagged cars to remain in service and it is removed quickly. Occasional grafitti is still something you might see, but it will quickly disappear. Zero tolerance is still in effect.
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What I would like to know about the phantom 2nd Avenue subway is what the terminals would be at both ends. That is, if that has been determined. It sounds like a Bronx-Manhattan route, or a Manhattan, Brooklyn route, but then again, it could go to Queens. It seems that after it goes down Second Avenue, whether it comes from the Bronx or from Brooklyn or Queens, it would crowd other lines in the outer boroughs.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
The 2nd Ave. subway might connect with the Chrystie St. connection at the south sne of the line or the IND Cranberry St. tunnel. There was one plan for the line to continue to Throgg's Neck via Bruckner Blvd.
BMTJeff
It's now about 4:15 PM on Friday and fellow Bus and Sub-Talk poster Todd Glickman is doing the weather on WCBS-AM 880 live from NYC studiios and not from MA
Did I correctly hear Deborah Rodriguez call Todd a "Train Geek" on air before?
Yup, she sure did! And by the way, her co-anchor, Wayne Cabot, IS a train geek too.
You should tell her the correct term is "Railfan" :-)
She also asked if you're going to be in the conductor's cab on Metro North. She revealed that you've been let into the conductor's cab on the LIRR.
As Ralph Kramden would say "Deborah Rodriquez is a BLAAAAABER -MOOOOUUUUUTH !!!
Hey, Todd: is Wayne Cabot into rapid transit/subways, or is he a mainline RR enthusaist?
Good to see you're back on the air live in NYC!
BMTman
Wayne is more into mainline railroading. He lives in Western New
Jersey, and has a line running near his house. He and his son go
train spotting.
Wayne & family came up to the Seashore Trolley Museum last year,
and he did pretty well running our NYC TARS car #631.
That's the 'sister' to our (Branford's) NYC TARS #629!
He picked a good car.
BMTman
Yeah and I'm lurking on SubTalk at the same time! I'm working from WCBS's brand new, all-digital studios on W. 57th Street. It's quite the change from the 1960s technology we left at Black Rock.
I gave a plug to train riding at 5:08, after our Chopper traffic reporter Tom Kaminski said that there were big delays at the airport.
Earlier today I had the good fortune to ride with fellow SubTalker Pelham Bay Dave as he piloted his Redbird along the number 6. And yesterday, I rode with our good friend Bill from Maspeth on the E. All-in-all, a good trip to NYC.
Back to Boston tonight!
You missed a ride on a BMT, Barely Moving Train. Next time look me up, I'm now a hippo mover.
Thanks for the info! I was on the 7 Thursday night and was looking for a garbage train, thinking you were still there.
I'm wearing my World Series T shirt that Brighton Beach Bob sent me. It is quite good looking, black with green and purple. The #7 and #4 trains are heading to their home team's venue. I wonder, though, if the Mets put out their own National League Champions shirt. I'd sure like to have one of those.
I recently passed through Elizabeth Station on the Northeast Corridor Line of New Jersey Transit, and I wondered about the right of way that used to host Jersey Central Trains, especially at the now abandoned station in Elizabeth. What is planned for the right of way through there? Are there other abandoned tracks in the NY/NJ area that could be put to some use if some of us made enough noise about them?
Not much will happen with those tracks because the Newark Bay Lift Bridge was blown up in 1981. The CNJ RoW goes from CP-ALDENE to Elizabethport and then into the Bay. Already the Raritan Line trains provide a 2 seat ride for NY bound passengers, terminating in Newark. The only possible use for the line is to do a sort of Long Island City, LIAR thing where most trains go to Newark and a few trains terminate at Elizabeth. There were some stations that were abandonned between CP-ALDENE and Elizabeth and besides being used for Elizabeth bound commuters, the line could serve these communities that were cut off in the 1960's. However this might put too much pressure on the already packed Corridor Line trains.
One RoW that nobody thinks about is the SIRR line from CRANFORD/CP-ALDENE to St. George. Raritan Line trains could run direct to St. George and then people could connect w/ the Ferry for the ride downtown. Of course the line is single track and would require the Arthur Kill bridge to be fixed up. This might come in handy with the possibility of passenger service on the Reading Main from Bound Brook to West Trenton.
PS: IS there anything left of the famous PRR Elizabeth station. It was the wooden one that was on the famous Elizabeth curve and is in so many of those pictures?
There is also the proposed Union County Light Rail Line which would use the ROW from Plainfield to Elizabethport where it would turn north to Jersey Gardens Mall, Ikea, and Newark Airport. The CNJ Elizabeth (Broad Street) station was refurbished by the city with the hopes of someone buying it to use most likely as a restaurant. So far it is sitting quietly doing nothing although it looks nice. The clock works and the weather vane has been replicated. As far as the PRR station is concerned--I never thought of the station itself as being anything special. As far as I know the building hasn't changed in over thirty years although the platform was extended north.
There is also the proposed Union County Light Rail Line which would use the ROW from Plainfield to Elizabethport where it would turn north to Jersey Gardens Mall, Ikea, and Newark Airport.
I'd never heard of it before. How serious a proposal is it?
Some of the budget for it was supposed to have been approved by NJT, but after their last fiscal report it is one of the projects in doubt.
The responses that I have read to my original posting are most interesting. The connection to Staten Island has some promise, but there will be all the red tape involved because of the line going between New York and New Jersey. A line like that just might be the catalyst necessary to get the freight rail tunnel project which has been talked about for a long time to maybe see reality. Any ideas, guys? An easier way to get to the Garden State for those of us who are not too crazy about driving always gets my interest.
*Yes folks i am back after a three week trip cross country on amtrak to nyc to do you know what SHOOT THE NYC SUBWAY!!
then the long island railroad hempstead line then shooting the L J M in two 5 hours formats the 2 & 5 two "world series shootings of #7" ( two days back to back shooting of the lovely # 7 !!)......
( especially the express lines some 3 4 6 with the original city hall station included in the footage & sone digital stills etc...
seeing those R1-tru R-9s & the low vs & high vs BMT B,D, was a beautiful signt to see ( why didnt you folks tell us they made 3 museum runs & where are your still shots of that??( oh well )...
For three weeks i did not drive a car & i sure liked that!! thank you to all of those of you i met in person (I was not so bad was I)?
Thankz salaam allah
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
The derailment happened around 10:30 pm Friday night. A train operator was operating a light G train which was to be laid up at D3-788 ball(s/b express track just north of Van Wyck Blvd.). The train went to the 179th Street relay track(track D5-downstairs) so as to change ends and access D3 track. Yes, D5 track downstairs is the same track that had a R46 train hit the wall some years ago and you can still see the indentations on the wall from it.
The T/O hit a K signal by attempting to key it(you're supposed to use the yellow lever next to the signal). After messing that up and then correcting it, he took a trip to "la-la land" by placing the train's controller in series(which you're supposed to do) and didn't think about stopping until he destroyed the thick railroad tie laying across the tracks which is placed just in front of the bumper block and then hit the bumping block as well.
After that, he didn't think about going down to the roadbed to see if he could somehow correct it or to keep the train in place if the train derailed, NOOOOOOOOOO, he decided to change ends and operate the train in the other direction with the first truck on the floor for about 150 feet sparking and smoking all the way.
The T/O(soon to be former T/O) had 11 3/4 months in title and was two days short of completing probation.
What the T/O should have done is go down to the roadbed and check out the damage. By checking to see that the train hit the ground, he could have minimized damage to the train and roadbed. By changing ends and continuing on, he showed gross negligence on his part.
By staying put, he would have been placed back into his prior title, now by doing this, he has placed that into jeopardy as well.
11/11/2000
[By staying put, he would have been placed back into his prior title, now by doing this, he has placed that into jeopardy as well. ]
Do you think he will be terminated ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I hope so.
* Question: could he not just stop where he was get on his radio call for help & not do anything until he was told to by radio etc.
At least i would have stopped the train where the event you posted had happened !! right ?? smoking all the way ?? stop right ??
He was in the front of the train; the last truck was smoking. It's not too obvious from that distance.
BTW, welcome back.
Is it my imagination, or are we seeing a rash of incidents
involving t/o's with only a few years in title?
Easy enough to blame running the block on "blacking out", but
to change ends while blacked out....that's SKILL!
"Is it my imagination, or are we seeing a rash of incidents
involving t/o's with only a few years in title? "
Don't say I didn't tell you so! I raised this very issue when I said that by going to an open competative test & requiring some college would at least provide the NYCT with a group of more responsible train operators.
The jury is still out on that one. Book smarts doesn't always
equate to common sense in a railway setting. I think more at
issue is simply the amount of training time being provided to
rookie t/o's before sending them out on the road alone. As I
understand it the first class of off-the-street t/o candidates
will begin early next year, so let's check back in a year and
compare.
Sorry if I'm ruffling any feathers of SubTalkers who may have a good list number, but I am really afraid of people who are coming in from the street to operate our trains. You will all find out that it is not as easy as it looks. The job is very assembly line like, yet you must be able to properly react to all situations. If not, a personal disaster/ and or equipment damage will occur, it will be your job on the line and then all innocent train operators will get a memo to sign pertaining that they understand what YOU did wrong, implying that when one t/o screws up, everybody is guilty. It has happened in the pst and will continue to happen. I know that everybody will be reinstructed about K signals especially since very few are out there and this guys' problems started with a K signal, he panicked and did everything wrong after that changing a bad situation into a disaster.
Keep in mind that the train operator had almost one year on the job. In the previous incident, the operator had over one year on the job. Subtract the 15 weeks of training and they still had a significant amount of time in the cab. In both cases, there is significant evidence of violation of procedures - commonly known as human error. My own feeling is that a more educated (formal education) person is more likely to follow procedures, especially in emergency situations. Of course, this is my personal opinion and I do not mean to imply that cleaners cannot or do not become good train operators. I just think that the greater the educational level, the more likely they are to follow the rules.
The bottom line is intent to be the best you can be. Traing is indispensable, college time may or may not be directly useful, but if it either instilled a sense of excellence, or sharpened analytical skills it was time well spent. I just re-read Transit Talk, the oral interview collection, and was struck again by the divide between the old heads who had personal knowledge and crib sheets because they never learned to read the 'official' schematics. BUT they knew what they were doing, and did it well. Secondary comment. It is always more elegant to describe the situation in detail.(as "#1, etc), The magic is having crews who actually enjoy this knowledge.
You're responding to your own post, but it sounds like
you were answering mine?
Time on the road doesn't cancel out bad training. If you
don't train people properly, they will learn it on the job,
probably incorrectly, or they will simply be unprepared for
the first time they encounter an unusual situation.
On the average, college graduates should have high levels of
analytical ability as well as verbal skills. This should help
them understand and remember procedures. OTOH, college being
what it is these days......
Yup, Jeff, I knows what you meen. I wuz edumacated at Nu York Univercity...
:-0
I assume if this guy's car ever gets a flat, he just gets out to check and see what happened, gets back inside and drives on the rims until he finds a tire store a few miles down the road.
Sounds like this guy needed remedial T/O training.
Before he even derailed, it looked like the T/O blew a couple of simple rules (wasn't suppose to 'key-by' but did, and put the controller in series which is a no-no).
Geez, I'm glad it was a yard move and not in revenue service!
BMTman
#1 He may have received permission previously to key-by the signal.
#2 You are allowed to move the controller to series but not past.
Permission is not required to key by a signal on relay tracks. The signal that he hit though is not a traditional signal where you would ease up onto the circuit and the stop arm would go down. The K signal requires that you make a complete stop and activate a lever to get the stop arm down.
And in that area you are allowed to go to series to get the train up to 10 mph.
Can someone explain putting the controler in series?
Better yet, how about someone explaining "all" the positions on the controller? Any help, Bill, Pelham Bay Dave or Z-Man?
Thanks!
Chuck Greene
On R26, R28, R29, R32, R33, R33WF, R36, R36WF, R38, R40, R40A, R42, R62, R62A, R68, and R68A, there are 2 controls. One of the controllers consist of the "Master Controller" and the other is the "Brake" on the Master Controller, there are 4 positions in the following order... "Coast" "Switch" "Series" "Parallel". I only know a few positions on the brake and they are "Running Release" "Service Area." I know all the way to the end is the position to dump the train. On the R44 and R46, there is a single hand controller. The positions are the the same as the 2 hand. The brake area is in the 2 o' clock to 6 o' clock area. The master controller area is in the 6 o' clock to 8 o' clock area. I'd rather have someone else explain what the positions do. I don't know enough.
running on...
Thanks! That looked like a darn good explanation to me. I heard some of those terms in the movie "The Taking of The Pelham 123". Mr Green
told Mr. Doyle something about moving up to "series" because he was going too slow in "switching"?
Chuck Greene
Um, why don't they just just have something simple like Run 1 through Run 8, idle and a bunch of dynamic brake positions past idle on the other side.
Because that's DIESEL-think.
But, you'll be happy to know that the R142 adopts this simplified
model of continuous acceleration ranges, to an extent.
All railroad electric locmotives have 8 run notch controlers. Of course the GG-1 had 22, but if you can simplify why not do it.
Wasn't that the case with the original R-44 and R-46 controllers? They seemed to be notchless.
Master Controller positions:
Coast: Only the #1 or #2 & #3 wires are energized. Train does not take power.
Switching: #1 or 2 & GS wires are energized. All four traction motors are connected in series. All propulsion resistors are in the circuit. Allows the train to move slowly for short periods of time only.
Series: #1 or 2, GS & #4 wires are energized: All four traction motors are still in series but the resistance is gradually (stepped) out of the circuit to permit greater speed.
Multiple or Parallel: #1 or #2, GS, #4 & #7 wires are energized. Traction Motors 1 & 2 are connected in series as are Traction motors 3 & 4. The pairs are connected in parallel with each other. All resistance is back in the circuit but is, again, gradually stepped out to permit greater speed.
These positions are basic for all equipment through R-68A.
Look out, here comes the tech blitz!
Zeoooowwwwwwwwwwwwww!
How many subtalkers left standing?
OK, Train Dude, I'll add to your tech explanation and mention
some further trivia.
In switching the motor fields are lightly shunted to reduce
starting torque and jerk.
In coast the dynamic braking circuits are established but
only a slight "spotting" current flows, creating minimal drag.
The term "multiple" is simply older electrical jargon for
"parallel". It is most common in pre-WW II literature.
Okay, but which are the normal positions used when operating the train in revenue service? I was once able to see a motorman drive a slanty R-40 train, and it looked like he turned one lever to the left and kept it there to start the train, and to stop the train it looked like he turned the lever back to face him and gradually "pumped" another lever (which I assume was the brake), finally leaving it turned. Can someone please explain to me exactly what all this does?
- Lyle Goldman
Operation of a elect. train hasn't changed a great deal since the invention of the "Safety Car", i.e. a trolley where the Controller had a dead man feature if the operator took his/her hand off of it. Early on the Controller had a lot of positions, so you would step thru the Series notches then go thru a dead space called Transition, then step thru Parallel notches until reaching max power (no resistance).
Now there are a lot less steps, but the principle is the same, i.e. start off in Series, end up in Parallel and if you take your hand off the Controller you go into Emergancy braking. You also can put the train in Emergancy by moving the brake handle too far.
It looks easy when the professionals are doing it, but your first time you would see it isn't realy that easy.
The other point is that every different type of trolley/train operates a little differently. (As an operator at Shoreline i've seen this first hand, e.g. our R-17 operates much like what was discussed before, but not exacly the same).
Mr t__:^)
Train Dude, I assume then that all "modern" subway cars on the NYCT system (up to the R-68A's) have three points of power on the controller?
Is this a correct assumption??
BMTman
The R44's and R46's have a single hand controller with one lever.
running on...
From an operational standpoint, you are correct. (Anti-technocrats should stop reading here) However, in reality there are far more steps than that. The reality is best visualized on a GE SCM controller (It's been a long time since I've worked on the GE controller so my position numbers may be a bit off). When the master controller is moved to switching, the controller runs to position #20 from 16. When moved to series, the controller goes to position #21 and then steps to position #29 - each step removing some resistance. When the master controller is moved to parallel, the controller goes through transition where the P switches pick up, the S switch drops out and the controller begins to run back to position #20. So, it would appear that the GE controller actually has 19 points of power (16 if you eliminate field shunting). The E-Cam is a bit different but it too has numerous points of power.
Steve, thanks for breaking things down for me.
(I also forgot to mention that the 44 and 46's weren't a part of my "three positions" notion.)
BMTman
I'd like to go over the statement below one more time:
"Multiple or Parallel: #1 or #2, GS, #4 & #7 wires are energized. Traction Motors 1 & 2 are connected in series as are Traction motors 3 & 4. The pairs are connected in parallel with each other. All resistance is back in the circuit but is, again, gradually stepped out to permit greater speed."
During the series-to-parallel transition, shouldn't heavy resistance be introduced and all four motors be put in parallel (full third rail voltage) and then resistance reduced to none? What you seem to describe is a situation in which no single motor can receive more than half of the third rail voltage.
I'm not arguing with you - just curious. As I read your statement, this would seem to be a departure from typical trolley car circuitry. Need your help! Thanks.
I stated that "all resistance" is back in the circuit during the transition.
Okay, but which are the normal positions used when operating the train in revenue service? Also, I was once able to see a motorman drive a slanty R-40 train, and it looked like he turned one lever to the left and kept it there to start the train, and to stop the train it looked like he turned the lever back to face him and gradually "pumped" another lever (which I assume was the brake), finally leaving it turned. Can someone please explain to me exactly what all this does?
- Lyle Goldman
Actually, Ray, on transit equipment a "bridge" type transition
is used which differs somewhat from the "K" style used on
streetcar controllers. I can't draw it using ASCII graphics.
After leaving full series, the control group adds resistance
back in series with each motor pair (the motors are 300V and
permanently in series, so effectively it is equivalent to
a 2-motor car), then the line voltage is applied to each motor
group, with the resistance both legs of the circuit. Then
as the control notches up in the parallel points, resistance
is cut out of each leg in symmetry until both motor groups
are left with the full line voltage across them.
So, in fact, Jeff, no motor runs at 600 volts. Correct?
On "modern" (post-WWII) NYC subway equipment, the smaller,
faster 300V motors are used, paired in series, to form
two motor groups. This is also the way it is done on PCC cars,
except of course that PCCs do not have a series/parallel transition;
the two motor groups are always in parallel.
Train Dude was correct, however his explanation gave me a headache :)
In layman's terms, the four positions on the master controller:
Coast-If you can't figure this one out then you have the I.Q. of a plant.
Switching: Very slow speed. Not to be used for excess periods of time as holding the control in switching burns out the resistors underneath the car. Usually picks up 1 mph for every second held.
Series: Avg. speed 18 mph on level track when held in series, 12-14 on hills.
Parallel/Multiple: Maximum attainable speed.
"Train Dude was correct, however his explanation gave me a headache :)"
Sorry about your headache, zman. That's one of my pet peeves about RTO. T/Os and even most TSSs do not understand the mechanical aspects of their job. On the LIRR, for engineers and conductors, this is common information. I think that understanding how and why something operates makes you a better operator.
Hey Dude, it was a joke. Thus the smiley face.
But you're right about what you said, only problem is that the TA doesn't tell us about this stuff. If the TA taught this stuff in school car like the LIRR does, then there would be a lot more knowledgeable RTO employees in the system.
Your pet peeve shouldn't be with RTO, it should be with Training & Qualifications.
I took it as a joke. However, I was serious about the shortcomings in the training. Come the revolution, all T/Os will have some basic cer equipment training.
The revolution huh? When do I get down with this? Sounds like a good idea.
So in Trolley talk, Switching isn't a "Running Point". You shouldn't run the train (Car) in this position for any length of time. Kinda like the points on a K controller between full series and full paralell (running points).
Usually, SubTalkers ask about what the consist of a train is when it is is involved in an incident such as this. Nobody has asked yet. I don't know either! But I was told this: the 2 car unit on the opposite end was the oddball AB pair: 6206/07. I'm curious to find out if the damage was just to the truck of the lead motor or was there repairable body damage as well, if anyone knows?
You sure?
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=166844
running on...
I overheard ACTO Kevin O'Connell on the radio say that there was minimal damage to the equipment(I was there after all. You dont think my handle is zman179 for nothing now do you?) :)
The majority of the damage occured on the roadbed.
I happened to visit JamYd today in the course of my duties. The car involved was 5944. The only damage I saw was on the left side of the #1 truck. It looked like the shoe beam was tied into place with red cord, the same kind of cord used on the R32 horns & emergency brake cords inside the cabs.
What an idiot. With the recent collision of the R62's on the #4 line in the Bronx, I think it's time to toughen up the train operators test, or to re-evaluate their training methods.
11/11/2000
If the T/O loses his job, he could always move to Florida and tally votes on Election Day !
Bill "Newkirk"
He might doze off and put all the votes in for Nader!
running on...
LOL !
Do you have any car numbers available? What damage did the car recieve?
running on...
Beginning Dec. 11th, B division T/O's will start qualifying on the 63rd St. extension. They will pick up the train at Continental. It will run M-F from 10 AM to 3 PM and from 7 PM to 3 AM. Sat & Sun: 24 hours. Please don't ask when the first passenger train will go thru! It will be utilized for reroutes for service delays and general orders at a time to be determined by NYCTA. Follo: don't ask, we'll tell you when it will be availiable for passengers!!!!!!!!
sorry folks... i tried putting up some posts at david cole's nth ward, but i received no response...
...I heard there was only one casualty.
And he was taken to Bellveue for "observation."
;-)
I'd like to personally thank the person/moron who is in charge ofn the Fulton St. complex in Manhattan yesterday for potentially trapping hundreds of subway riders in the closed station exit at Nassau and Fulton Sts. I was one of them. When I exited my normal J train at 7:10 Am yesterday, I found a large group of "trapped" people who had no idea that Friday was being recognized as a holiday for station operations and that that exit, normally shut on holidays, would be closed all day. Several people were on the emergency phone trying to make contact with the police to let them out. Only I, too late, remembered that the station was closed and I had the duty to inform everyone that the only way out was to re-enter the system (paying another fare, of course) and to walk to one of the 24 hour exits on the 4/5 platform. Needless to say, people were pissed. Many people refused to do so and tried calling 911. Others crawled under the turnstyle. I just swiped my Metrocard again.
A @#!$%& sign was all that was needed to prevent this mess, which was probably repeated over and over again as every AM rush J/M/Z discharged it's passangers out onto the southbound platform and the unsuspecting people exited through the turnstyle, only to realize they were trapped afterwards.
I want my $1.50 back.
Call 718-243-3222 to complain. We at the booth cannot give refunds.
I won't bother. I'm not upset that I lost $1.50. I'm upset that the situation could've easily been prevented.
They should have closed the exit turnstyles so people wouldn't go out the wrong way! Somebody messed up big time!
Perhaps that's why I always use an unlimited card.
I just heard on NPR that a cable car in Germany(?) caught fire and killed almost 100 people, many of which were children. Apparently the cable car was either docked or near the grouldbecause most of the able bodied adults were able to break windows and escape.
Here's a link to the AP story on the ABC News site. In summary, the disaster took place in Austria, and involved a cable-hauled railway in a tunnel, not a suspended aerial tramway.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/austria_train001111.html
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
It happened in Austria, in a tunnel that the cable car goes through. Only eight people out of 180 survived.
wayne
>and it has been described variously as a "cable car" and a "tram". In any event it's not clear to me how this tragedy could occur with the sole power source being electricity, or that so many deaths could result.<
Sorry I pop in on the case - the fact is, that this was an Abt-type FUNICULAR (Austrians seem unaware of the difference to real "cable cars", as I experienced myself on the English nonsense announcements and advertizing boards in Innsbruck in August) amed "Kitzsteingams", and officially known as "Gletscherbahn Kaprun 2", situated in the Kaprun area, renowned of its scenic hydraulic power stations and systems of interconnected dams and lakes since the 1950ies.
According to specialist Swiss author W.Hefti ("Unusual Mountain Railways", p.56, 93/4), the line is of 3900 m track length (i.e. non-projected, as it appears shorter on the map, Pythagoras applies) at a vertical difference of 1535 m. The line was opened in the 70ies, when careless use of flammable materials was quite common for use in German transit vehicles, either, as a lot of these (DB's cl. 421 ...) have a reputation of being fire-prone, by arson or by fault.
The "Gletscherbahn Kaprun 2" is operating two articulated 8-axle bogie twin-sets permanently fixed to a rope to the counterbalancing principle. Each car has wheelsets with flangeless rolls on one side, and double-flanged wheels on the other side, mirror-image-wise relative betwen the two units. The offside rolls do pass the frogs with gaps in the running rails permitting clearance for the rope (or cable) to intersect it. these frogs do not permit rollers, but are to a unique simple design. Guidance thus is accomplished by one rail for each of the cars only. Track gauge is a (IMHO perverse) 946 mm, and each car carries 180 persons, 48 of them seated, at a speed of 10 m/sec.
The downhill terminus is at the bottom of a huge trestle, leading into a very narrow tunnel "jaws", the smoke-blackened hole you now see in TV news. The passing loop of the described "Abt" principle is located inside a cavern.
Acc to the pics in the book, there is no catenary or live rail electricity supply to the two "trains", as batteries for lighting and ventilation are apparently recharged at each terminus. As far as I know of such lines, there is little to burn at the vehicles themselves, but these modern skiing dresses and packages, ski waxes, skiing boots and als that is quite flammable stuff. Either a cigarette lighter, or a fused battery cable may have ignited the
matter near the empty downhill control cab.
The downhill-bound car was empty, but as far as I heard, the driver died of suffocation, thus the incident may have occurred shortly before either car had reached the passing loop. Polyamide "thermo" dresses would develop hydrocyanic acid (HCN), killing most people instantly, then igniting with high temperature during the "flashover" phase of the fire, charring the victims and equipment beyond recognition. The car involved seems to be a total loss, though the
remains still seem to be firmly attached to the rope. However, that flashover fire seems to have had similar effects as gunpowder in a gun barrel, as we had already experienced with the severe outside "remote" damage near the tunnel mounds at the 1988 Stolzenbach lignite mining desaster near Kassel. Further, the inclined shaft has the effects of a chimney, as already physically studied in the Channel Tunnel 1996 fire desaster, without incline.
What I still do not know is the purpose of the small railway at the bottom of the trestle in the Hefti pictures; maybe a temporary construction railway ?
The tragedy has killed several skiing artist champions of the German team, and there seem to be problems to reach and clear the site without the risk of a runaway.
Maybe that Michel Azema's funicular site (or that like) has more accurate details - hope he wasn't there himself :-((( . I'll mail him a copy of this, and maybe he has (hopefully) better news.
Regards, CTW, DE-Goslar
Since the W train will replace the Southern Brooklyn B train when flip-flop sides of the Manhattan Bridge accurs in 2001, will the W train operate express along the Astoria line in Queens during rush hours or just all day Mon thru Fri ONLY & if so, what will it be it's express service hours & what car equipment will be used on the W train.
That's it. Killfile time for this moron.
Why? Did I miss something?
Yes. Repetative questions which are unanswerable can be very annoying.
It is his weekly post about service changes when the Manny B switches sides.
Next time he posts the same old message, just ignore him.
As you can guess from my post, I'm way ahead of you.
You stole the words right from my keyboard.
running on...
I really shouldn't be responding to this. You really annoy me and the majority of SubTalkers. I should just ignore you and or let you have the distinction of you being the first person in my killfile. Obviously, you do not keep up with what's going on in SubTalk. You never read other posts. It has been said time and time again that the service plan is not final, meetings are still going on. It is probably true when the Sixth Ave side of the MannyB closes (whenever it happens) the W will be on the West End to avoid an IND "B" and a BMT "B". And that's all we can speculate about this W train. As to what equipment and stops it makes on the Astoria Line, it is part of the total package as to the finished B division service plan when that side of the MannyB closes. Maybe it's me, but I think it's high time you make some constructive contributions to this board rather than asking the same dumb questions day in and day out.
Bill from Maspeth:
Will the "W" train run on the BMT Broadway line or will it run on the "IND" 6th Ave. line? If it is to go Astoria it would have to run on the BMT Broadway line when it is in Manhattan since there is no connection to the Astoria line from any of the "IND" lines in Manhattan. If it runs in Manhattan will it be a local or would it be an express. I wonder what route number would have been assigned to this train in the glory days of the BMT.
BMTJeff
Just click on to the post that I'm responding to. Check out the format! And Jeff damn well knows the amswer! If he doesn't, he is a disgrace to the BMT! I can't believe he's follo. This is the biggest news since, well, the mystery of who ran down Stone Cold Steve Austin! This calls for a grudge match! Me, a guy who has a BMT E Mail address, but who is actually on loan to the IND, vs. the BMT man! Maybe Vinnie Mac can sign us up for the Royal Rumble in a special grudge match! BMT Jeff: I never expected it was you, I thought you were a better man than that! And THAT's the bottom line because the "Bronco" sez so!
I don't follo you !
Bill "Newkirk"
Atleast we didn't follo him in his
attempts to get us to buy the latest
WCW Pay Per Snooze...
Stamfordian.
I have dealt with him ,various times
Bill from Maspeth:
Excuse me, I'm not follo plus I'm not a disgrace to the BMT. I've been interested in the BMT for a number of years already plus I think that the BMT in its heyday had many innovative ideas when it came to the design of rapid transit cars. Many of their ideas were subsequently used by many other urban rapid transit systems. In my own opinion the TA should look back to the heyday of the BMT when it comes to designing new cars. I think that they should have modern versions of cars such as the "Triplex" and the "Multi-section" cars. If #4 Sea Beach Fred gets wind of this he is going to be very angry with many of you since we're now close friends and we talk a lot about the BMT so I suggest that you stop this right now plus I wish to add that I've had no other indentity than BMTJeff.
BMTJeff
OK Jeff. I hereby eat my words of my accusation of you being aka follo and apologise. Between your denial, an E Mail, and some people on BusTalk, I am convinced that I jumped the gun. But there was no reason for you to have the first words of your original post addressed to me. I that case you should have E Mailed me directly. Actually, the question you asked about the W should have been a general question which anybody could answer. But to answer your question, whenever the DOT closes the Manny B on the Sixth Ave side forcing the TA to suspend service, think W for West End, and B for Bronx! It will be pre Nov. 1967 all over again: pre Chrystie St. Probably like circa 1986, the W (known as the Brooklyn B then) would run express to 34th St. where it would, have to cross over interfering with the N & R. In the glory days of the BMT it would be the #3.
Bill: Glad to hear your rivalry with BMT Jeff has ended. If he said he isn't follo, then you can take his word for it. Jeff and I have become good friends on this line. We both love the BMT and have railed by what has happened to some of the lines. My gripe is how the Sea Beach has been relegated to the back burner, taken off the Manny B, and watching their stations in Brooklyn deteriorate to the point of decay. It is one thing to argue about politics, and that has caused some ripples on this site, but we all love the subway and that should give us more to unite us than divide us. Have a good one.
WHO ran down Steve Austin!??!
Naaaaaah...
Jim Neidhart was/is WHO.
As far as Vinnie Mac goes,
chances are you won't have to
look for him; after that post,
he's probably found you already!
A Devoted Stamfordian.
At the present time, the plan is for the W to run express north of Queensboro Plaza In the peak traffic direction during AM & PM hours. After PM rush, the plan is for the W to operate to 57th & 7th only and to revert to a shuttle in Brooklyn during the midnight hours (as the B does now). There is a preliminary plan as to which equopment will be assigned to what lines. However it too has not been given final approval. Please don't ask which cars will go where as I am not at liberty to post that information as yet. Also note that the service plan is tentative and has not been approved as yet.
Express service on the Astoria line is a waste. The added service at the local stops is needed more than the 3 minute savings an express run of half empty trains would provide.
Perhaps there is a legitimate reason for the express service in Astoria. I can see one important reason right off the bat. In any event, I didn't write the plan. I'm only reporting on what I know.
What's the reason that you see? Just asking. (Apologies if the reason was mentioned in a previous post, since it seems like today is the day to pick on people who don't "follo" the rules, whatever they are. At least he's posting about a transit related topic. Ya gotta give him that.)
Wasn't it supposed to be officially approved last month (Oct.) and then presented to the public in Jan.?
5200coming next year to the
Ditmars Blvd, Astoria
Coney Island
Hey Hey Hey!!! Get your own number!!!
running on...
OK!
4949on the
Metropolitan Av
Bay Parkway, Bklyn
what program do you use to make the signs?
Plain HTML tags. I've saved the codes to my AOL personal filing cabinet, and I copy and paste them to to the board, making changes at will. So fun!
6301on the
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FLATBUSH AVENUE
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yes you are using Tables with a cellpadding of 5 I can see that...if it was up to me i'd just make them on paintbrush....a lot easier
I don't know if I have those programs. (I have CorelFlow 3, and Microsoft Office and tried making a gif from those and it didn't work.) With this, I don't even have to upload to my ftp space, and I cam make any chnge possible to the routing.
BTW, just made improvements to R-46 sign. (I'd have to delete and re-upload if it was a gif):
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Yeah, but the HTML loads a LOT faster for those of us on dialup ... be considerate, use HTML!
But gifs are fairly small for this kind of application, and look the same for everyone.
Unless you have a 9600 baud modem, if those were gifs, it would NOT be a big download.
Yeah even a big GIF like say 30k would only take about 17 seconds on a 14.4 - and nothing on a 56K...let alone the T3s that we have at my school now there's nothing to big for the school computers!
This assumes that the modem is operating at its rated bandwidth, which they almost never are. Average throughput on my 56.6K modem is more like 20Kbps.
I am *NOT* in favor of unrequested graphics on a BBS like this one.
David: Any comments?
I am *NOT* in favor of unrequested graphics on a BBS like this one.
So then hit stop if it bothers you.
I usually get about 26 outta my 56K at home...but most of the time I am on the T3s at school. Our labs at school are grouped with 32 computers on a LAN sharing a single T3. During hours when things aren't busy, if the lab is about half full I can get about 700K out of them. Now that's fast!
I agree, but one of the principals of successful web design is to design for the lowest common denominator. Yahoo's home page was always consistently 20% lighter than any other portal's ... fewer graphics, more strenuous use of HTML. One of the factors in their success.
Transit content: I'm leaving SF for good tomorrow. Will miss the historic "F" Line and the Muni Metro, but looking forward to getting back to a place where transit takes you MANY places you wanna go.
While all of this verbiage has been going on, what about the "N"? Is it ever going back over the Manny B when the south side opens, or has that thought been scrapped to keep the Sea Beach meandering through the bowels of Manhattan? I had hoped the train would get to travel back over the bridge for quicker and faster service as well as for some scenery.
I believe that until the A/B tracks on the Manhattan Bridge are re-opened some 5 years from now, the 'N' train will travel "VIA TUNNEL".
The next 1 or 2 issues will show the entire service Plan as it stands before the Board
When this material is released.I will print this out
Steve
We should all show up and demand the full MTA capital plan plus, paid for with current revenues. Or better yet, revenues collected in a boom, set aside, and spent in a bust.
Larry,
Personally, I agree with you.
Here's a challenge for you: Lay out how you might propose this in a document which would meet with at least tacit approval (that is, no one threatens to block it) on the MTA capital review board, has a reasonable chance of passing the legislature as constituted for 2001, and has a reasonable chance of getting Governor Pataki's approval (and therefore E Virgil Conway's approval).
I am not being sarcastic - I really want you to post something here - maybe we can organize a subway.org effort and send a petition to get this done. I'm ready to back you up.
Cinders (NRHS newsletter) reports that all Silverliners have received the red/blue window treatment. Thus, all Yellowbirds, etc are now gone. However, I noticed the Silverliner II (which I still can't catch the number of!) yesterday with 'Pennsylvania' on the letterboard, still, with the new window striping.
11/11/2000
[Thus, all Yellowbirds, etc are now gone]
The yellowbirds must be those airport trains ? The yellow stripe I guess was for easy identification. now how do passengers know which is the airport train ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, the Yellowbirds were the airport trains. Septa had a fairwell to the Yellowbirds trip when the repainting began.
Passengers now identify airport trains the same way as any other trains: departure boards and public address announcements prior to train arrival, and the "R1" sign on the train as it enters the station.
11/11/2000
......and here are a couple of observations.
1) The Montclair Connection - I observed the latest on this connection. I was surprised how close the Montclair terminus is in relation to the Boonton Branch. The homes on the cleared ROW(2 tracks) are gone and concrete retaining walls are up and ROW is graded. Catenary poles are not up yet as well as ballast and tracks.
The new Montclair station platform (2 tracks) foundations are in place. Further up the line at Walnut St station, catenary towers are up, but no wire strung yet. I understand the Boonton ROW south of the connection is to be abandoned ?
2) After leaving Montclair I headed to the Newark City Subway facilites at Belleville (sp?). Everything looks finished and noticed one PCC as well as one LRV under the shed. I also noticed a loop track in the back of the property. I understand that there is one remaing freight customer on the ROW. If they fold up, would extention of the line be in the cards ?
I checked out what was Franklin Avenue station. Yes, the temporary platform and early 80's canpoy are gone. The loop of course is still there. The new canopy looks great as well as the info booth. #7 bus replacements were running. The ROW and grade crossing where the line leaves Franklin Ave. crosses the street and ramps up to the freight branch is pretty much complete. Some grafitti scars the concrete retaing wall.
3) When traveling south on Route 1 & 9 passing Newark Airport, I notice what looked like a monorail structure under construction crossing 1 & 9. Is this a branch to the NEC ? This is not to be confused with the current monorail with stations that parallels 1 & 9.
That's enough Jersey excitement for me, I gotta lay down and rest !!
Bill "Newkirk"
*unfortunately time ran out before i could shoot the R & N lines
& trying to get an r-32 & r-38 on the A train sems to be impossible during the day!! So i missed the last two on my list the N & R lines
what did i miss folks? because i will not fail to shoot it next time!!
thankz salaamallah
Allow yourself enough time next time. They are not referred to as the Never and the Rarely for nothing.
To quote my buddy Ronald Reagan "There you go again."
I would much prefer the reference to Truman. "Give 'em hell Harry".
--Harry
If that turns you on, go ahead and use it. It's yours for the taking.
the "N" has a nice outdoor section between Coney Island and just west of 8th Avenue, Brooklyn, which is mostly in open cut (ducks in and out of short tunnels), also at grade or slightly below it. Then it is underground all the way through Brooklyn, into Manhattan, and it emerges in Queens for a short elevated run to Astoria. The "N" runs R32, Slant R40 and R68 cars.
the "R" is underground its entire length; MOSTLY ALL R46 CARS (You CAN find an R32 but they are relatively rare). The "R" only sees the sun for a few seconds between Bay Ridge Ave and 59th Street where the tunnel sides are briefly exposed as it crosses an underground trestle.
wayne
* thankz !!!
I was very happy to hear & see the coney island overhaul shops & see all of the R-32s & R-38s being overhauled & restored for regular service. Also was glad to hear they will be around for a long time!!!
I figured that the R was underground like the E line...
Maybe I can come there again to cover shooting the N line next year or so ( hope they sometimes run on express tracks )
The results of my shooting the J,L,M,E.trains day & night aprox 10 hours total came out not so bad especially the J,M, lines at night with an 0.4 natural low light shooting acros the williamsburg bridge..
What you said about the N line reminds me of the Q or the L in some places I do not feel so bad about this now I still have something to look foward to in the future !!
Trying to get an R-38-32 on the A train during the day was one of the most hardest things to do ever, it seems they like to run them at night for some reason !! thankz again .......salamallah
What you said about the N line reminds me of the Q or the L in some places I do not feel so bad about this now I still have something to look foward to in the future
Even more so the "N" line than either the "Q" or the "L", as it is in the open cut much longer and there are more streets crossing overhead, forming those short tunnels. 8th Avenue is at grade, Fort Hamilton starts the open cut and it continues all the way to 86th Street station. Many stations along the "N" line are in pretty bad shape, with water leeks &c.
wayne.
And I keep wondering when they are going to refurbish the stations on my line. Every time I come to New York, ride the Sea Beach and see those run down stations my blood level rises.
Well, maybe you could help by encouraging the increase of local, state, and federal tax money which finds its way to the improvement of your beloved line, then you wouldn't feel so --
-- Oh, that's right! Being a Republican, you're for private solutions to public needs. Yeah, free enterprise. That's the trick. The Sea Beach would be great again if the government just got out of the way. Even a compasionate conservative would be hard-pressed to spend money on a subway line which doesn't turn a profit. Hell, that's fuzzy math, isn't it? Don't trust government, trust "people." We don't want no Dumb-ocrats spendin' our hard-earned cash on no money-losin' subway line, do we? After all, the market should decide when and to what extent the Sea Beach has service and infrastructure improvements.
Good luck with that.
[By the way, in case it was too subliminable for you, that was sarcasm. I was really trying to stay out of this, but while reading your posts in the recent thread about the Florida ballot, it occurred to me that the only problem with us Democrats is that we let Republican name-calling and insult-hurling go on for far too long without fighting back. That's what makes my "blood level rise." I'm sorry you feel the need to deride all Democrats, but please, let me join Doug BMTMan in asking you to try to show a little more class on this board.]
Pete: You're not that far off. I could use a little cool but politics brings out the worst in us, and it also brings out the partisanship in most of us. But get one thing straight. I am all for public transportation and I wouldn't be on this line if I wasn't a subway fanatic. If I was the President, I would make sure millions got sent to New York for the refurbishing of the greatest subway system in the world---with one stipulation. The Sea Beach would be the first line to get retooled.
Keystone Pete should go to www.trolleycars.org Republicans have learned that Rail and other forms of public transit are what makes welfare reform possible. now, If we can keep their greasy mitts off the PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS PENSION FUND so they can fund tax cuts like GEORGE W. BUSH did in Texas!!
Fred, I know you're for public transit. Why else would you be on the board? My post was an exaggeration meant to underscore this point: Both Republicans and Democrats vary in their attitudes towards the issue, because both Republican and Democratic politicians are individuals with varying constituancies.
I may be a registered Democrat, but I don't agree with all of my party's positions. I may think George W. Bush is a bad choice for president, but I have reasons why other than simply that he is a Republican. If a different Republican was the nominee, Colin Powell, for example, I might seriously consider voting for him. This is why I try not to go around blindly deriding Republicans. I disagree with many planks of their platform, but I do not think they are all bad people. That's just not fair.
On the flip side, take our friend Pork, for example. From his posts, I would have guessed he was a Republican. He is very interested in preventing the waste of his tax dollars, and he often decries any idea remotely socialist in nature. Turns out he's responding to your posts by defending Democrats. Whoda thunk?
I think some government programs are wastefull and inefficient, but I can still argue the need for the government to spend some money on various problems in the country. The candidacy of John McCain proves that not all Republicans think alike either. In fact, transit is becoming more and more a bipartisan issue these past few years. We can all agree that's a good thing.
*i would lkie to say something on this please excuse any of my errors!
If the leberatians right wingers,republicans had it thier way you would either WALK with your two feet if you were lucky to still have them & they are in working condition! & you would DRIVE with all of the fees tags manditory insurance too high liscense over high fuel manditory smog controls forced seat belt wearing... costs " driving is a priveledge " etc, paid parking, meter maids trafic cops etc..
& NO public transportation ( like the destroyed PE system L.A. Calif.)
my question is how are you supposed to WALK to work with no public tranist ?? Check out the amsterdam tram/trolleys shots on this website socalist government mass transportation everywhere everybody happy!!
( anyway my opinion )....
Based on what do you make that statement? Do you perfer the insightful, thoughtful democratic leadership? Let's see, Mr. Clinton bombed an asprin factory. What can gore do to top that sort of leadership?
* now this thread is going off topic ( again) ??
if you insist we did disagree with pres. clinton on many thing(s)
The N train is something i must return to tape since i lost so much time trying to get a A train during daylight hours with an r38 -32!
It was a real drag missing the N train, guess i was very tired from all of that constant shooting of A Q J M L 2 4 5 6 7 trains day & night within a two week period, tired feet & legs exhausted !!
Also look foward to the shooting the LIRR & all of the commuter type railroads! I must return again soon to resume my subway video shooting adiction!! LOL!!
( now lets get this thread is back on topic )....
We rode on the Sea Beach last month during our excursion and Wayne's right: most of the stations need work. The trackwork appears to be done as far as the now-single express track is concerned. The old Coney Island-bound express track is still there, but it's been detached at both ends and is in sad shape.
Hey, Wayne, have you seen R-32 3721 lately? That was the car Brian
Cudahy rode in the cab with the motorman on his "Ride on the Sea Beach" epilogue in the original Under the Sidewalks edition.
On any line where there's more than one model of rolling stock, there's no pattern or consistency. Yesterday afternoon we were hanging out in Charles Park, which fronts on Jamaica Bay at the extreme southern end of Howard Beach. You can easily see the trestle the 'A' goes over. We saw three R-46s in a row coming from Far Rock followed by three R-38s in a row. Everything headed to Far Rock seemed to be a 46.
The 'N' is very streaky. Some weekends it seems to be all 32s; others it seems to be all 68s. Every time you've become convinced there are no more Slants on the line, you see one.
On weekends, there seem to be many more Redbirds on the '6' than during the week.
Those were R-44s you saw. All R-46s reside in Jamaica Yard and hold down service on the E, F, G, and R lines.
Oops! You're right! How could I make such a basic mistake?! I must still be shell-shocked from this past weekend's GO and power failure fiascos, which are detailed in a separate post.
Those two mimosas I had at the brunch before going to the park might have kept me from noticing the difference.
Change is good. After all, if a line had the same equipment all the time it would become boring and mundane. In my opinion anyway.
Perhaps. But when the R-10s ruled supreme on the A, it was never boring. The express dash along CPW was pure excitement.
I'd love to see some R 42's back on Queens Blvd. maybe the E can trade with an outdoor line that could use the stainless steel cars
I suggested a car swap with the Eastern division, sending the R32's on the E to the J/M/L lines, and the R42's to the E a while ago.
When the R-143s arrive for the L on the Eastern Division, chances are some R-40M/R-42s will be sent over to deal with the extra traffic through the new 63rd St. connector. Whether or not any of them end up on the E remains to be seen.
I have also seen the occasional redbird on the 4 during rush hours, as well as the occasional slanty N. For those of us that notice these things, it's a lot of fun. Personally, I would love to see/ride a redbird on the 1/9, or an R-38 on the F. One never knows...
An R38 on the F?
I only see those when I have a wet dream.
The R-38s made their debut on the F, as well as the E, right smack in the middle of the Jamaica Yard Crisis of 1966.
Jamaica Yard Crisis? Could you expalin that one? I was a high school kid back then, so let me in on the intrigue.
This was before I arrived on the subway scene, but here goes.
In August of 1966, R-1/9s in Jamaica Yard began failing at an alarming rate due to deferred maintenance. St. Louis Car Co. had just begun delivery of the R-38s, but due to a strike at their plant, deliveries were going much more slowly than initially planned. 20 cars were on site when the crisis hit, and they were pressed into service with one 10-car trainset assigned to the E and one to the F. It still wasn't enough to cover for all of the failed R-1/9s, so a call was placed to the BMT Eastern Division. 32 R-16s were loaned to Jamaica Yard and put in service on the GG. Either they had the necessary rollsigns spliced into their roller curtains, or decals were applied to the sign windows. The domino effect continued, as a group of condemned BMT standards awaiting to be scrapped were given a last minute stay of execution and sent back to revenue service with the S letters for scrap painted over. This arrangement lasted until February of 1967, when the R-16s were sent back to the BMT once enough R-38s had been delivered. It's not clear whether any of the failed R-1/9s were repaired or simply retired.
[We saw three R-46s in a row coming from Far Rock followed by three R-38s in a row. Everything headed to Far Rock seemed to be a 46.]
If this was 20 years ago when the great R-46 cracked truck fiasco was happening that might be true. One time I was riding on the Nostalgia Special looking out the rear railfan window of the B-Types as we were approching Rockaway Park, Just leaving was a consist of, you guessed it, R-46's. There was no sign on the south motor, just blank.
When the R-46's were assigned to the (A), they didn't have signs for the (A) ?
Bill "Newkirk"
[We saw three R-46s in a row coming from Far Rock followed by three R-38s in a row. Everything headed to Far Rock seemed to be a 46.]
If this was 20 years ago when the great R-46 cracked truck fiasco was happening that might be true. One time I was riding on the Nostalgia Special looking out the rear railfan window of the B-Types as we were approching Rockaway Park, Just leaving was a consist of, you guessed it, R-46's. There was no sign on the south motor, just blank.
When the R-46's were assigned to the (A), they didn't have signs for the (A) ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Howard:
Just to let you know they run R-44's on the A-line. They run R-46's on the E, F, G & R, lines.
Dave
Your description of the "N" is exactly the reason I became captivated with it as a kid. I loved those little tunnels we used to go in and out of. There were four of them at each interval. Had there not been it would have been one underpass like the stations before New Utrecht and that would have made it dull. I also loved the Sea Beach because it carried the #4, the numeral my baseball hero, Duke Snider wore when he was a superstar with the Brooklyn Dodgers.
Had you been on a certain Q train on Tuesday, Oct. 24, you would have gotten a rare treat. This train was rerouted via the Montague St. tunnel because of a problem at the bridge and ran express along Broadway. I caught it at Union Square and took it to Times Square. Give the conductor kudos for his patience; he made explicit announcements that this train would run express to 57th St. then run via the regular Q to 21st St. At 34th St., he added, "Lady, if you're not sure if this is your train, it probably isn't." The only drawback was that the train was sitting in the station when I reached the platform, and I boarded the sixth car without getting a chance to move up to the railfan window. Of course, it was a Q of slants.
Does anybody know if R16s ever ran on the C, D lines?
Not to my knowledge. Besides the late 60's/early 70's, when they ran on the E/F/GG/EE lines, and the N after 1976, the R16 was mainly run on the J/M/LL/RR/B and QB lines only.
One thing that I distinctly remember about the R16's running on the RR back in the late 60's was that they did not have 95th St. signs on their rolls for some reason. To remedy this, a bumper sticker that simply said '95 ST' in bold black letters was placed over the glass on the outside center side sign. The front signs on the southbound end were left blank.
Only very few R16 RR trains did have some cars with a 95 St- Ft. Hamilton in the rolls. But as you said, they were all mostly covered with a white sign with a 95 St in bold letters. The few cars that did have the roll signs lighted gave it a strange green glow at night.
Jose
Fifty R-16s were assigned to the A during the late 50s and even inaugurated service to the Rockaways. They also made appearances on the AA and B in later years, if the photo section is accurate.
That's right, some R16's ran on the AA, no doubt the same cars that ran on the B line during rush hours.
Does anybody know if Slants R40 ever ran on the Eastern Division lines J, M, Z, lines? I know the L does
I can tell you that the slants occasionally popped up on the 'M' line when I worked over there back in 1991-1993. They were all from the 4400 series, IIRC. As far as the 'J', 'Z', or what has been going on over there more recently, I really don't know.
The Slant R40 on the Eastern Division lines are: 4370-4449
(4420,4421,4427,4428 are scrapped)
and currently run only on the "L". During the Williamsburg Bridge construction project, the Slants filled in on the "M" shuttle.
I don't ever remember seeing one on the "J" or "Z". I have been told that they don't carry a "Z" sign on their rolls; I could be wrong on this.
wayne
Sometime in 1999, I saw a slant in Z service. They probably used it for one trip then sent it to ENY yard.
The Z is not on the R40's rollsign.
running on...
Yes it is. I've seen it. Both side and bulkhead.
The first time i saw (became aware of) a "Z" was in 1988, months before service started, when I saw a rebuilt slant 40 pulling into Jay St. with the Z in front. (I thought it was orange). I heard that signs either have the Z or the yellow D but not both, but at least SOME of the signs have the Z. Some R-40m/42 signs have the Z pasted over "K" or "V".
2600
on the
205th Street
Bronx
Coney Island
Brooklyn
Copy Cat!!! What font is that on 2600? I think you might need to bold it.
running on...
I challenge all you computer artists to reproduce the R16 side sign graphics, with the 1969-ish rainbow route signs.
I'd love to see it.
I wasn't around that time. I'll need a picture to work off of.
running on...
Are you talking about:
168 ST JAMAICA
BROAD ST, MANHATTAN
JJ Nassau Street Lcl
Her's the best I could do for now. (You need Haettenschweiler, Impact, Compacta, Futura Condensed, or Machine to see it correctly.
Not sure of exact wording of signs
The upper sign was the way you have it. The lower sign said simply, "BROAD ST.", in all caps. "Local" or Express" was spelled out on the outside portion of route signs and truncated on the inside portion. On the R-1/9 side signs, "Local" and "Express" were spelled out on both sides.
Not bad. Wrong font, and the letters weren't all capitalized, but not bad.
Not bad, but something's missing. Yep, the crank handles ! Also the sign box plate should be light gray if that's possible.
Bill "Newkirk"
I've been consulting "HTML for Dummies" and "Sam's Teach Yourself to create Web Pages in 24 Hours" for the knowhow to do this stuff.
I've been trying to find out if you can color in the cellspacing, but there doesn't seem to be a way to do that, as well as putting objects in the cellspacing (dark circles for knobs or crank holes), so in this respect, it will never be as good as a gif. But at least it's a reasonable facsimile.
It was on this board I began learning my first inklings of HTML. It started two or three years ago when I tried to use the tag brackets to make diamond numbers (eg.<7> --the discussion was on IRT route #'s 8-15, IIRC), and the whole thing disappeared. I believe it was Hank who explained that and the & tags and demonstrated italicization. Then someone explained elsewhere about posting links and img's. So I started peeking in HTML books in stores, then, when I began making pages, line by line history, Scooby page, I bought one, and at the same time (unbeknownst to me) my wife bought the other.
So thanks to this board for all the help.
Posted
Wednesday, November 15
10:15 AM
About time! I've been trying to get you to notice! :-)
I used Franklin Gothic Medium as the primary, then Zurich BlkEx BT as secondary, and Arial if all else fails. (This is a simple HTML table, not a gif). The real font, as I've been saying, is Akzidenz-Grotesk, but I'm sure none of us have it. (I'm certainly not paying from $60-$169 to download it! See thread below) But Franklin Gothic and Zurich are good reproductions of it for numbers except for "1" (You need Helvetica for that), but it's the "2" particularly that I used these fonts for.
Only thing now, how do I get rid of the excess space between the number board and the sign!
6200 coming next year to the
V
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SECOND AVENUE
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I saw a Z side roll sign on a Slant 40. I dont know about the front.
Train#1908Mike
They DO carry Z signs. During July, a consist of slants ran on the Z line (4388 was the only number I remember) for about a week. It was probably just a temporary borrow from the L line, as all the center route signs remained set to L and the train disappeared after a week.
I've NEVER ridden a slant R40 J train. Slants popped up on the M from time to time from 1986 to about 1995, not including the Willy B closure in 1999, when the entire M shuttle was slants.
I saw a Memo inside the ENY master tower saying the slant 40 are to only go out on the L line. I saw this about two weeks ago when I went to train there.
Robert
Does anyone know the reason given for that memo about slants "only on the L"?
BMTman
Yeah, Ive often asked the same question. Does anybodsy have the answer to that one?
i don't know but this is just what I saw.
Robert
The only think I can think of is the Cresent Street curve might be considered a hazard for anyone walking between slant ends of the cars when the train is making the turn because of the gap, even with the attatched bars.
Are passengers permitted to walk between cars now on the Jamaica Line?
This was prohibited in the days of the Standards, R-10's & R-16's!
Passengers can walk thru all non 75-foot (r-44/46/68/68A) equipment.
One exception being A division equipment w/ transverse cabs. Then you cannot walk between the 5th and 6th cars.
Peace,
ANDEE
WOW! Times have sure changed!
In more ways than one, I'm afraid.
Slant R40 and straight-ended R40M do NOT have handholds/grab bars between the "B" ends; the R42 cars do.
wayne
You can't walk through the R40s on the Q Line when the kids at Grady High School get out before a few years ago, someone slipped and fell between. CRUNCH!!!
running on...
You most certainly can walk thru the R-40s on the Q. Did it myself just last week.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ditto here, on the L during our excursion.
You shouldn't be able to durning the hours of about 3:00 - 3:30 on the trains leaving Brighton Beach at that time.
running on...
The only reason I can think of as to why they would have kept the storm doors on the R-10s and R-16s locked on the Jamaica line was the S curve between Crescent St. and Cypress Hills, and that policy must have been changed between 1957 and 1968. When I rode on that line in the late 60s, you could move between cars on the R-27/30s and other 60-footers; in fact, one QJ train I took in the spring of 1969 had all of its storm doors open (except the ones on the ends of the train).
The storm doors on the BMT standards were always locked.
I've always seen doors open for free movement on the J line, and that includes R16's, R27's, R30's, R40M's and R42's ...
"THEY" know you take it every day Mr. BMTMan
Who are "THEY"? The NYCT "Powers that Be"?
Or the "Slant R-40 Society"? (The coveted organization dedicated to the study and preservation of that rare animal, the Slant 40, in it's natural habitat).
BMTman
And that natural habitat is the Brighton express.
Well, we know they're NOT going back to the "F" where they started in 1968.
The R40 and its brethren the R40M were delivered as IND equipment (although a few stray R40M DID do early time on the "LL" in the summer of 1969) but now none of them are seen on the IND lines EXCEPT on 6th Avenue where they serve the "Q" (and rarely, on the weekends, the "B" lines). The Slants are strictly BMT.
I don't know; #4155 was in pretty fine form this afternoon on the "Q", dusting a couple of sleepy "D" locals.
wayne
From what I hear, next year when the bridge switches sides, all the 32's will go to the IND (for 8 car trains on the B), as well as the 40's now being isolated from the IND, so it will be a complete trade.
So perhaps
3500coming next year to the
Bedford Park Blvd
34th Street, Manh
Wash Hts/6th Av
That's where they normally run. Why? I'm not sure. But they did run on the Z for a short time this summer. I can confirm that with my own 2 eyes.
I remember seeing slants on the M too. When I'd head home from school, there would occasionally be a slant on the M pulling into DeKalb. They temporarily returned to the M last year when the Willy B was shut down.
are you a Communist, or are right wing latin american dictators more your style . maybe your a demopublican who's skck of the FL situation. Let's get off Dave Pirmann's bandwidth and argue things out
Since it's my chat, if possible, I'd like to be e-mailed if a chat is being planned by someone.
You DO NOT have to e-mail me to start a chat if you can't find my e-mail.
Good idea, Pigs.
I personally volunteer to manually re-count
the total number of participants in these
"chats" of yours..
The attempt was unsucessful
...my point-in-pun was:
As seen in the past,
anytime a **CHAT** was attempted
or planned, the turnout resembled
as many complimentary statements
myself or Salaam Allah can say
in reference to r142s... that
being none.
Called the day off IN ADVANCE.
When chats were scheduled on the fly, turnout was healthy.
Therefore, I'm not going to hold chats any more often that monthly.
The October 2000 issue of The Map is now in distribution.
In this issue there is one really BIG goof-up.
The information narrative for the B train now reads:
All times except Nights: All stops 145 St to 59 St, Manhattan,express stops, 59 St to Coney Island/Stillwell Av, Brooklyn; rush hours extended to Bedford Pk Blvd, The Bronx.
The Special night service reads:
BROOKLYN SERVICE ONLY: All stops Coney Island/Stillwell Av to 36 St
Transfer : to N at 36 St for service to/from Manhattan and Queens.
Now here is where the goof up occurs:
The routes/lines section still shows the B going to 21 St/Queensbridge.
To complicate matters the narrative for the Q reads:
Middays & Rush Hours: Express stops in Manhattan and Brooklyn from
21 St/Queensbridge, Queens to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn.
All other times: Use B for service to/from Queens, use D to/from Brooklyn.
The S (21 St) shuttle only runs between 12 Midnight and 6:30 am.
==================
Didn't anyone proof the map before send it to print???? How can they say that the B provides service to 21 St when they also said that it runs either from 145 St Manhattan or 36 St Brooklyn?
Based on this what service is there to Queensbridge when the Q doesn't run?
(note: This could be one of the biggest errors since the B error back in the early 1980's map).
Why can't the description for the Q be made much easier and more accurate? Instead of rush hours and mid-days, it should read: "6AM to 9PM Monday-Friday:".
It would make sense.
(note: This could be one of the biggest errors since the B error back in the early 1980's map)
What error was that?
At the time the B had terminated at 57 St/6 Av but had been extended to 168 St. The map that was put out did not have that (there were other service changes on other routes that were reflected). The map was rather quickly withdrawn and a corrected version issued.
It showed no rush hour B service to Washington Heights? Talk about stupid.
Speaking of 168th Street, a couple of weeks ago I transferred from the A to the 1 there. In the elevator between the IND and IRT stations, the floor indicators above the door indicate: "1/9" or "A/B." The 'B' train doesn't stop there anymore, kids. It's the 'C' now. The indicators are back-lit, etched metal, so it ain't like changin' a rollsign. You'd think theyda designed the elevator with possible future service changes in mind. Too late now!
Is one of you going to write this up and send it in to the MTA?
If you do, send it to Douglas Sussman, Vice President, MTA, 347 Madison Avenue, New York NY 10017. Enclose the paper map with the errors circled.
Two months ago, I wrote a letter pointing out that ADA-access was not specified at several subway and LIRR stations where it was, in fact available. The consequences were not trivial: elderly people and mothers with strollers struggled to use the escalator at Main Street-Flushing on the 7 line, because they did not know to look for the elevator.
I have not seen the October map yet. Sussman indicated that the ADA list and symbology would include Woodside, Main Street, and the LIRR stations at Woodside and Bayside, among others.
Anybody know if that's been accomplished?
The ADA symbols are shown at the stations you indicated above.
Hooray!
Perhaps the way to encourage more transit ridership is for people to get more cars. Here in Windsor Terrace, parking is becomming hell, especially on Sunday night. Almost no one in Windsor Terrace has off-street parking, and Monday is alternate side of the street. In the past I had trouble getting a spot on the good side on my block on Sunday night. Now I have trouble getting ANY spot ANYWHERE.
Today, we lived like suburbanites. Pressed for time, we drove the 3/4 of a mile to Grace's soccer game, over to one of her friends, dropped off the girl who had a sleepover with Clarie, then drove to Claire's soccer game, then back to the house, then Jeanmarie drove to go swimming, then out to visit a cemetary on Long Island, then to a restaurant, then home. We usually don't take that many auto trips in a MONTH, let alone a day. Traffic was heavy, everywhere. Parking at the Parade Grounds took 20 minutes. My wife usually pulls in front of a hydrant near Claire's friends house to drop her off, but today the hydrant was taken.
Tomarrow, driving around leave me sitting in the car for an hour at 9 p.m. waiting for someone to pull out so I can park. We have the car well positioned for street cleaning on Monday, parked right near our house. So, we will WALK the half mile to Mass, then to Grace's basketball game, then back home. Jeanmarie will try to time the B69 bus (once every half-hour) to go swimming. We will take the subway two stops to Claire's basketball game later on. We wouldn't dare try to leave the city.
Perhaps the way to encourage more transit ridership is for people to get more cars. Here in Windsor Terrace, parking is becomming hell, especially on Sunday night. Almost no one in Windsor Terrace has off-street parking, and Monday is alternate side of the street. In the past I had trouble getting a spot on the good side on my block on Sunday night. Now I have trouble getting ANY spot ANYWHERE.
There's always the Tokyo system - people are not permitted to buy cars unless they can prove access to off-street parking. Not that something like that would ever be accepted in the United States.
My wife usually pulls in front of a hydrant near Claire's friends house to drop her off, but today the hydrant was taken.
The nerve of some people!!
It would've been funny if there had been a fire while that driver was parked in front of the hydrant. In some cases, rather than try to snake their hoses around an illegally parked car, the firemen will simply smash out the windows and pass their hoses through the cars.
And firehoses sometimes leak quite a bit.
The Tokyo system sounds like a real solution. These are the things we need to be doing in the United States.
But then again, this is coming from a Socialist.
If you are a member of the nomenklatura you will live in a state owned luxury townhouse and have a car, heck, you might not even have to wait 2 years to pick up the car while the workers wait in line 5 hours for some moldy bread and rotten meat.
[If you are a member of the nomenklatura you will live in a state owned luxury townhouse and have a car, heck, you might not even have to wait 2 years to pick up the car while the workers wait in line 5 hours for some moldy bread and rotten meat.]
The system in Cuba works a heck of alot better than the one that "died" in Russia.
Just that we're (the US) is making life in Cuba difficult with all of this embargo B.S.
BMTman
If they think they're too good for a US supported leader and think they can sieze all of our inventment and property then they can obviously do without our trade.
The fact that Batista (sp?) was supported by the US did not make them like him. He was pretty much a brutal dictator. So they kept hating him and since we supported him they hated us too. Good move on our part, supporting yet another brutal despot.
I'd think I was too good for many of the "US supported leaders," such as pinochet, batista, samoza, etc., if they were running my country.
[The system in Cuba works a heck of alot better than the one that "died" in Russia.
Just that we're (the US) is making life in Cuba difficult with all of this embargo B.S. ]
How??
Actually Russians made tha life in Cuba difficult after stopping the financial aid.
Arti
Yeah, but the embargo gives fidel a great scapegoat. Without the embargo, people in cuba would be more aware of what the system is denying them, and more skeptical of the government's excuses for it. Of course, the cubans in miami are either a) too irrational to see this or b) don't mind it because once fidel falls, the cuban community won't have anything left to fight for.
They could always try fighting for better trainsit.
Alternate side parking was designed to drive you crazy and to raise revenue for the city. In Kensington we had it 4 days a week until 1980, then only Monday-Tuesday. The Monday restriction made it impossible to go anywhere on Sunday without the aggravation you describe. By the mid-80s many families had two cars, and like Windsor Terrace few garages. Luckily I rented a garage from a neighbor. The city preaches against the car but depends on toll, tax and ticket revenue from it. Car owners willingly put up with it. You can't take the bus to Pathmark or Costco or Home depot.
So who are Grace, Claire, and Jeanmarie?
How hard is it to figure out?
(So who are Grace, Claire, and Jeanmarie?)
The wife and kids. How many middle aged rail nerds have three girlfriends?
Ah, the fulfillment of the American Dream! We worked 80 years to create the conditions you describe. What a happy world of fulfilled dreams we live in!
(Ah, the fulfillment of the American Dream! We worked 80 years to create the conditions you describe. What a happy world of fulfilled dreams we live in!)
Took 85 years. Our block was built around 1915. Clearly we are servants to a car we generally only use on weekends. Now, as a result of fear of not finding a space, we are reluctant to use it then.
Before buying it, however, we carefully calculated the total cost and aggravation of owning a car, vs. renting cars or using car service for trips that don't work for transit. Given the aggravation of getting a rent a car, buying won out. Note that rental cars are especially expensive in NYC. When Claire and Grace are adults and out of the nest, the calculation may be different.
I'd favor a parking fee for cars, with bidding for the right to scarce parking spaces on the street. I can afford it. Those with two cars who really only need one might give one up. The transportation system can use the money.
Quick question for the T/O's out there, lets say I pick the 'B' division, which is the IND/BMT, do I have to stay in that division for as long as I'm a T/O or do I switch back and forth every now and then?
I'm pretty sure you can switch divisions. In fact, I think I remember some T/O's posting about doing just that. Then again, maybe those were conductors. Anyway, I am in no way affiliated with the MTA, so don't stake your career on that.
- Lyle Goldman
You can switck back and forth every so often. You have to be able to pick a job in the other division in order to transfer.
You can switch back and forth every five to six months when a new pick takes into effect. You have to be able to pick a job in the other division in order to transfer over. Although I have no idea as to why you would want to transfer back and forth.
Take my advice, when you find the division that you feel most comfortable in, stay there.
To Larry Littlefield and others:
I've been reading your posts on the bond act and specifics on the subway.
I hope all of you will keep pushing for a Second Avenue line. The Bond Act was defeated - fine, I respect that. But we still need the subway.
I am not sure that removing all environmental review is a great idea - but I agree that the current process is somewhat onerous, beyond its stated purpose in some respects.
RE: Port Authority: Please note that many more "poor blacks" strongly supported AirTrain than opposed it. The true opposition never numbered more than two dozen or so, and never represented the true sentiment of the community. There were private citizens who advocated forcefully for the train, and certainly the business community did so. This really was a case of the Port Authority doing the right thing for all of us.
Larry, I agree that tolls on free bridges might be a decent way of raising some money for a new line.
As far as the responses to MTA's new designs: You are quite correct that a deep bore will be needed to interface with the 63rd Street line (which, as I stated before, was designed to accept that interface). However, please note that elevators and escalators would be needed regardless of station design, because the MTA must comply with the 1990 Americans with Disabilities Act. Escalators move people quickly, and unless the subway is so shallow that ramps are sufficient, an elevator is a requirement for wheelchair access.
Perhaps we will have to accept a line from 125th to 63rd Street to begin with. Hopefully an efficient design will allow th tunnel to hold three or four tracks. This subway would be the firstin NYC ever designed to accommodate the elderly and the handicapped, and people with strollers, for its entire length.
I for one will be back at work to push the pols to get us what we need. We cannot give up, and the subway will ultimately happen.
Shame that it was defeated. I think that transit developments should happen whether people want it or not. Just look at the expansions they have made in the more socialist democracies in Europe, as well as parts of Asia. Cmmon America get with it!
Remember though, this is all coming from a Socialist.
Shame on NY'ers for voting this bond down! Lets toll the parkways and let it pay for new subway lines, as well as the seemingly impossible solution to the gridlock on Long Island.
I'd rather use a new mass transit system here on Long Island than be forced to drive.
There are TOO DAMN MANY CARS HERE on Long Island. There should be a strict limit - two cars per household, NO MORE. We have only one car.
The situation is getting out of hand. I have seen more accidents in the last year than I have in the last ten; and it's not just on the parkways, it's on the local and secondary roads. There are too many cars, period. And the worst part: there's no long-term solution. People WON'T USE and DON'T WANT mass transit. Too bad? Maybe. Perhaps the ultimate solution will be when either a) the sea moves in or b) the water is deemed unfit to drink.
Virginia's looking more and more like an option every day.
wayne
There are TOO DAMN MANY CARS HERE on Long Island. There should be a strict limit - two cars per household, NO MORE. We have only one car.
So you would give two cars to a couple and give the same number of cars to a family of ten?
The situation is getting out of hand. I have seen more accidents in the last year than I have in the last ten
Maybe you've been driving more?
and it's not just on the parkways, it's on the local and secondary roads. There are too many cars, period. And the worst part: there's no long-term solution. People WON'T USE and DON'T WANT mass transit.
Mass transit WILL NOT work in a low density area! LIRR service has to be improved, some branches and additional tracks would be good, and parking should be expanded and people should be encouraged to drive a smaller distance to a closer station.
Areas which have medium density can have feeder busses and busses to their downtown. Ideally, people should live like this, NOBODY should force someone else to live where they don't want.
>>>Virginia's looking more and more like an option every day.<<<
You must not mean Northern Virginia. You won't escape traffic there.
Shame on NY'ers for voting this bond down! Lets toll the parkways and let it pay for new subway lines, as well as the seemingly impossible solution to the gridlock on Long Island.
What is it with you Socialists and your desire to get what you want at the cost of others? Socialism is for losers who can't do things for themselves and want to steal from others.
I'd rather use a new mass transit system here on Long Island than be forced to drive.
Why? Driving is more convenient, and unless I was tired or drunk I'd choose to drive. The only thing that stops me is the lack of sufficient reasonably priced parking in Manhattan. You can do whatever the hell you want, but if you want it, PAY FOR IT!
If you're thinking I'm against all transit, you are as wrong as your failed economic system. It's not practical to have everybody drive to Manhattan.
It's also not practical to have people ride transit through a low density area. I am fully against any Long Island transit solution except for one that involves people going to a centralized location (The City).
I think Pork: The Other White Meat goes a little overboard with the antitransit stand in the suburbs. New Jersey has shown that light rail can be beneficial to both commuters travelling into the city (and a healthy city center is necessary for a healthy suburb, studies have proven). and to people travelling from one suburb to another. A new LIRR route, or light rail operating in a median, or in a prepared culvert, to minimize residential disruption, can be helpful in Long Island and would help fight congestion and increase property values. It would help complement services like Long Island Bus and Suffolk Transit; make it easier for domestic workers to get to and from suburban homes to suburban jobs, and spur economic development in depressed areas.
Transit does not have to be imposed on people; I think, with the involvement of community and business groups, routings can be chosen which most people would be comfortable with. It isn't productive to build transit lines "helter-skelter" anymore than it is to build roads that way.
There are NIMBYs everywhere, of course, but if enough people felt they had genuine input into the process, the NIMBYs will be in the minority. Their obstruction can be reduced by: addressing their concerns honestly, and by incorporating modifications to show that their concerns are in fact taken into account. That, and thorough legal preparation can make sure a given line can be built.
Land, water and clean air are not free, and by primarily driving cars we poison these resources. So investing in alternatives like mass transit, and borrowing an industry market-based concept called pollution credits (already in effect) and applying it to the retail market isn't a bad idea.
New Jersey has shown that light rail can be beneficial to both commuters travelling into the city (and a healthy city center is necessary for a healthy suburb, studies have proven). and to people travelling from one suburb to another.
Jersey City is not a suburb! HBLR is pure urban transit, it's just that a lot of New Yorkers fail to realize that the city doesn't end at the Hudson.
Jersey City is not a suburb, but the light rail will cover over 20 miles, and not all of it is "urban." Light rail in San Diego, CA, which has been a success, serves both urban and suburban communities.
Another aspect ignored here is that suburbs often have "minicenters" of relatively higher density in them as well - for example county seats in Nassau and Suffolk, or megamalls or sports complexes, where light rail could help commuters reach these centers from surrounding areas.
It obviously won't work everywhere but why be closed-minded about it?
Maybe you can stop posting crap that makes you look right at any costs even though I SAID THE SAME THING FIRST.
I never said transit didn't work in a city-to-suburb situation, or even into a minicenter situation.
Why don't you read the whole message before making redundant responses?
I was pointing out that not all suburb to suburb situations are the same, and provided examples. If you meant to say this, I did not read that in your message - and I did read the whole message.
I prefer not to attack others in the offensive and unnecessary way you have attacked me. I invite you to join me in maintaining a constructive dialogue.
> I for one will be back at work to push the pols to get us what we need.
Good for you! With all the people who fight to oppose progress, there should be more people like you who fight for what is best for us. I just hope you are as effective as so many "NIMBY"s have unfortunately been in the past!
- Lyle Goldman
>>>Escalators move people quickly<<<
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!
(Maybe if there were enough per station, all working, and when people remember that the left side is not for standing!)
As you've probably figured out, I'm an optimist (I've always been a little stupid that way I guess)
Well, RonInBayside, it's interesting your contributing to SubTalk considering your handle would indicate you live in a section of the city which is, unfortunately, pretty much devoid of Subway service. I don't know how long I'd be an optimist if I lived there! (Nice houses, tho.) :o)
Can someone give me the facts about what is the 11th St. cut? There is one photo of an R train on this site, but I don't know if this is from the Astoria days of the R or the current Queens Blvd. R. How long is the cut, when and in which project was it built and what train(s) use(s) it now?
It is the connection from the 60th Street tunnel to the Queens Boulevard line at 11th Street and Queens Plaza (the BMT is under QP North, the IND is under QP South).
I always thought the 11th St. cut referred to the the open section of tracks running parallel to the Queensboro Bridge that the BMT trains from Astoria used to access the 60th St. tunnel. The term "cut" would imply something other than a tunnel.
Yeah, it could get confusing. The 11th St. cut actually refers to the 'GD' tracks that the R line uses between Queens Plaza and the merge with the N line in both directions. Furthermore, the spot where the M line leaves the Montague St. Tube (or joins it on the other side) is referred to as the Nassau cut.
Chris, that's right, I'm referring to an open section of track, hence "open cut". So I'm wondering from your message, did Pigs give me the answer I was looking for. Does the R line (of today) use this open cut? And how long is this open cut?
The R line does not go outside at all. Therefore the R cannot travel along open cuts.
It's not an open cut.
I'm thinking it's more like a cutoff.
[I'm thinking it's more like a cutoff. ]
I think that's a more accurate description. I don't know why it was referred to a "cut" all these years. "Cutoff" sounds better.
Bill "Newkirk"
Like the Bergen Ave "cutoff" of the 3rd Ave EL - that was never refered to as a "cut" IRRC.
--Mark
Like the Bergen Ave "cutoff" of the 3rd Ave EL - that was never refered to as a "cut" IIRC.
--Mark
No. The tracks to Queens Blvd. veer off just short of the porthole to the cut.
The N doesn't travel in an open cut for a significant enough distance to call it anything more than a RAMP.
I despise semantic fascists.
lol
Ok, the tracks veer off before the porthole to the RAMP ..
I don't care if it's called a cut or not, but it's not the 11th Street cut!
I'm shocked that the "semantic fascists" did not object
to the use of the word "porthole"!
No one answered the second part of the original question, which
was when was the 11th st cut (sic) built and what services ran
through it? I believe the answer is 1955, and that pre-Chrystie
the brighton local ran to Continental, then up to the mid 70s
there was a EE service Whitehall-Continental, then the sea beach
N, then finally the 4 Ave R from 1989 to present. I could easily
be wrong about any and all of this.
I'm shocked that the "semantic fascists" did not object
to the use of the word "porthole"!
No one answered the second part of the original question, which
was when was the 11th st cut (sic) built and what services ran
through it? I believe the answer is 1955, and that pre-Chrystie
the brighton local ran to Continental, then up to the mid 70s
there was a EE service Whitehall-Continental, then the sea beach
N, then finally the 4 Ave R from 1989 to present. I could easily
be wrong about any and all of this.
1987 instead of 1989.
I don't know what things were like before 1967, but I think I heard (don't accept this as total truth) that it was the Fourth Avenue Local that made the trip through the cutoff.
About the time the R27/30s arrived,the RR did run out to FOREST HILLS weekdays until 1967.The T/QT and QB ran out to to ASTORIA.
The Brighton local did not go to Continental for very long. I think others (Brighton Exp. Bob?) stated that it was until 1957. I know for sure that from 1965-1967 the QT went to Astoria.
The 1959 route map on this site shows Brighton Locals still going to Forest Hills with Brighton Expresses and Fourth Avenue Locals going to Astoria.
The 1966 route map on this site shows Brighton Locals and West End Expresses going to Astoria with Fourth Avenue Locals going to Forest Hills.
My own personal experience is that the Brighton-4th Ave switch came much earlier. Fourth Avenue Locals ran to Forest Hills in 1961. However, the Chrystie Street changes in 1967 brought about another switch - RR Astoria and EE to Forest Hills and the Brighton Local becoming the D train into the Bronx.
The EE's elimination due to the fiscal crisis brought the N to Forest Hills in place of the EE.
The 4th Avenue Local ran from Queens Plaza to 95th Street @ Fort Hamilton up until 1949. In that year the train then took the place of the #8 and ran to Ditmars Blvd in Astoria. That moves this line back again in time.
Did you ever see any trains, IRT or BMT, actually marked as #8 out to Astoria? I've heard that the R-12s were used on the Astoria leg before it became BMT-only and in those cases they carried #8 signs.
While the R12's had the #8 signs, I dont think any of them were assigned to the Flushing/Astoria lines before the BMT switchover in 1949.
Steve: Never noticed. All I knew was the 4th Avenue Local terminated at Queens Plaza, its only outdoor stop. I was always looking forward to getting that part of the ride over as we journeyed to 42nd Street where I could catch the Sea Beach to Coney Island or the Brighton Express to Ebbets Field.
I have an R-12 side route sign box that I restored and painted gray. The sign I have for that says "ASTORIA LOCAL".
I'm not sure what the front sign for the R-12's said.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm thinking that 'cut' in this instance refers not to 'open cut' but 'cutoff', a kind of shortcut. I recall reading about one on the UP, I think it's the Lucian. And the Line across Great Salt Lake in Utah is also refered to as a cutoff.
-Hank
This so-called "cut" is not really a cut at all. It is where the former 4th Avenue Local either went intothe tunnel never to emerge again, or came out to it's only outdoor stop--Queens Plaza. I used to climb the brick wall and look down from a small park in the Queensbbridge complex to watch these trains. Today the Sea Beach uses the route. Not a cut at all.
We're not talking about that as the cut. Only Chris R16 still thinks that that is the 11th Street Cut, as opposed to just the Queens ramp of the 60th Street Tunnel.
Well Pork, we finally agree on something again. I don't know why anyone would have considered anything other than a ramp.
Pigs, nonetheless I recall seeing a picture on nycsubwayorg of a train outdoors (IIRC, within the group of pictures of R27/30s) that was entitled something like R train at the 11th St. cut. From the various responses, I guess what this referred to was the ramp to the 60th St. tunnel and that this was in the days when the R went to Astoria.
At 132st and Broadway I noticed a southbound #1 train local track pass a signal that turned red. Later on as the train departed the 125 Street station a "20" sign illuminated on but the signal stayed red. The 20 was under the red signal. What does the 20 stand for? Later on when the signal turned yellow the "20" shut off.
I'm not sure how or why the train passed a red signal at 132 St. It could have "Keyed By," but they're normally not allowed to do that.
The "20" under the red signal is the "Station Timer" aspect. Briefly, it means that if a train is detected as approaching the signal at 20 M.P.H. or slower, the signal will turn yellow or green. It is controlled by timers, and it allows trains to get closer together near stations.
For more information, see the Signals section on this Web site. It gives a lot of helpful information.
Hope this helps.
- Lyle Goldman
You're right Lyle except one thing, a station timer only changes to yellow unless the train occupying the station ahead should depart.
I thought ST was only effective when trains in advance were already pulling out, not to close trains in on one stopped at a platform?
It works in both instances. A train which is behind another train that is stopped in a station can move up to as close as one signal block away under ST. Sometimes this can be as little as 2 car lengths.
A simple key-by, and you're coupled into a 20 car train in no time!
That's what happened on the 6 at Brooklyn Bridge not too long ago.
However if supervision finds out that you keyed by a signal without permission, it means automatic DEMOTION.
I seem to recall cases where trains were "tripped" by the automatic brake when posted speed limits were exceeded in tunnels. In one case, years ago, a 16 year old posing as a TA employee operated an A train and was dicovered after a tripper arm stopped the train on its way to the 207th Street terminal, when it exceeded a 20 mph limit.
Was the train actually tripped on a red signal, or was the tripper activated by the timing signal (or other speed-limiting device) described in this conversation? The NY Times implied the latter.
Timing signals normally display red, with the stop arm up.
When a train enters the section of track to preceeding them, a timer begins to run. When it finishes, the stop is driven down, and then the signal clears. At train travelling at or below the posted speed will have the time signal clear in advance of it. A speeding train would hit the raised stop arm before the timer finishes, and would have its brake air dumped.
So to answer your question; yes, and yes. The red timer signal _is_ the "speed limiting device"
Thank you for posting that information.
2 questions:
When did the signal turn red?
What side of the track was it on?
And did the signal plate say "REP"?
That's easy. The signal turned red as the first set of wheels crossed the IJ and it is located on the right hand side of 1 Track, the southbound local.
Had there been another train following the one you were watching, it would have been able to approach the red with the illuminated 20 at some speed less than 20mph (probably closer to about 8) and have the signal clear to yellow, allowing him to approach the first train, but still maintaining one signal block between the two trains.
The signal is on the right side of the tracks and it turned red once the first car passed it.
Unless I'm missing something in your question, if the signal is on the right side (facing the signal)and turns red once the first car is over the IJ, it sounds like a signal that's functioning as designed.
While revenue service of Aceal Express does not start until 12/11...daylong ceremonial activities occur on 11/16. Any further details on what Amtrak has planned, and the times the trainset will be at the various stations? (i.e. DC, Penn, BOS-S. Station) I'd be happy to meet up with the Boston subtalkers, if i can work it with my class schedule. -Nick
/*Any further details on what Amtrak has planned, and the times the trainset will be at the various stations?*/
Leave Baltamore at time on schedule +5 minutes.
Cafe car runs out around Wilmoington.
Leave Philly at time on schedule +10 minutes.
Locomotive's ASC craps out near Mentuchen.
Arrive NYC 30 minutes late.
Leave NYC 35 minues late.
Sit for 5 more minutes outside Stamford waiting for local MN train to clear station.
Leave New Haven 40 minutes late.
Get stuck behind F-40 powered Northeast Direct near New London
Leave Providence 1 hour late.
Break down south of Mass boarder.
Arrive South Station, 3 hours late, being pulled by an AEM-7.
Dukakis, Warrington, etc, all make speeches bragging about America's "first' high speed train, totally ignoring the Metroliner of '69, and the fact that neither were high speed trains anyway.
Or, alternately, the train,leaves DC a few hours late because of a snagged pantograph. Kinda like the first Acela Regional did (but from Boston)...
Sit for 5 more minutes outside Stamford waiting for local MN train to clear station.
This won't happen because they just re-opened the northern track on the W/B island platform. I saw a E/B MN Genisis sitting on the south side of the island when my Amtrak train pulled in on the north side. A few seconds later another E/B local pulled in on the south platform so Stamford can take 2 E/B or 2 W/B trains at one time.
Excellent analysis,Jersey Mike, but I say it breaks down NORTH of the Mass border.
/*
Excellent analysis,Jersey Mike, but I say it breaks down NORTH of the Mass border.*/
I'm not Jersey Mike!!! :)
Oh, and it *will* break down north of the Mass boarder...
...On the return trip!!
LOL, Philip!! That was certainly a fun and humorous reply :) But in all seriousness, if anyone does know what time the ceremony is taking place at South Station, I would love to be there if it works with my schedule. -Nick
Hey. You know how the Brighton Line is terminating its D Trains at Brighton Beach, with a shuttle between Brighton Beach and Stillwell Avenue on the Brooklyn-bound track, this weekend and next? Well, today (Saturday) I saw the shuttle train pass a red home signal at normal speed. How did it do that without being tripped?
- Lyle Goldman
Sorry for asking, bu what's a G.O.
Thanks.
A General Order. It is basically an order to change (or, in most cases, disrupt) train service. In this case, the G.O. was that all D trains would terminate at Brighton Beach, with a shuttle train replacing service between Brighton Beach and Coney Island during the day both this weekend and next.
- Lyle Goldman
Thanks!
The stop arm is hooked down by a signal maintainer. Wooden blocks would be in switch points preventing them from being able to move and a blocking device would be on the switch lever/button on the tower machine. All this would be part of the G.O. instructions. Don't worry, the shuttle would be a single track absolute block operation. This means that only that particular train is allowed on that particular track during the G.O.
Yup that is what was being done. In addition, at Kings Hway A3 Track Aproach and Home signal to the south switch was RED followed by manual tripper and red lanterns in the road bed not allowing anyone going towards Coney Island on the express tracks for some reason.
I would have loved to read the G.O.....
What R-142A trains are running on the #6 line? Is the one from last summer running, or is a new one running, or are they both running?
- Lyle Goldman
During the Summer 7211-7220 ran but they are still working with that train. 7261-7270 are the cars running now.
They have not been running the R142A in service that much. It does two trips in the morning and then used for School car.
As of Now 7216-7220 are at Westchester yard and everything else must be at E 180 Street.
as each ten car set of cars is tested and taken out of service to be modified, will the resulting cars be able to be mixed with other ten car consists?
for those with a strong historical bent, i think that anyone who keeps an accurate chronicle of when cars were received, tested, taken out of service, modified, and retested might be able to make a name for him/herself...
They can mix the cars around like lets say 7216-7220-7266-7270. As time goes on the car numbers will be all mixed up but right now the cars are staying together.
The only thing they can not do is mix a R142 with a R142A because of some diffrences.
T/O's will begin training on the following dates. The classes will consist of current TA employees and new hires(open competitive).
Class 1: January 2; 50 persons
Class 2: February 5; 100 persons
Class 3: April 2; 50 persons
Training takes roughly 3 months in the IRT and 5 1/2 months in the IND/BMT.
The TA was not going to split the classes between TA Employees and New Hires. The TA is putting in the last class of Employees some time this mouth. This class are the last few poeple that passed the test. The list will be then closed, and the new list openen. TA has to add more time into training the new hires so they can get into knowing how the TA works.
Robert
School Car has sworn themselves silly (not very hard, I know) that class time will NOT be extended for off-the-street TOs.
I guest that they keep on changing there mind. When I started trainging on 10/9/00 they sayed they were going to extend trainging for them.
Robert
How long does it take to get track qualified, I mean the course you take that lets you walk the track. Wouldn't that just add time or is that reviewed and in the regular employee T/O test?
That's already part of the course, since some TOs promote from Bus Operator.
I say current employees because many of them took the open competitive test as well as people off the street.
That's not fair to alot of people because current employees are supposed to take the promotional exam. That's probably one reason why 7500 people are on the hiring list.
But the employees are going to have to quik there jobs to take time job. So if they don't make the year then they are out of a job all together.
Robert
Not true Robert. When you resign your position in good standing, you have one year to get your old job back.
You want to talk about unfair? I'll show you unfair.
Every civil service worker who starts with the TA begins at a much lower salary which is usually 40% less than the pay of the regular workers and it takes them 3 years to get to "top pay". People going into this T/O title from off the street such as yourself go immediately to top pay. Now THAT is unfair to me and to everyone who is currently working for the TA who had to start at bottom wages.
Everyone who has ever wanted to become a T/O has had to start off at a lesser title such as a Conductor, Token Clerk, Cleaner or Bus Operator. Everyone had to pay some "dues" to reach this title.
Conductors get spit on or have rocks and bottles thrown at them, getting treated like children by supervision and verbal abuse by the riders is part of the job as well. Not to mention the poor C/R who was stabbed by some nut on the N train on Sunday.
Token Clerks have to worry about robberies either by gun or by having the crook threaten to set the booth on fire, people squirting unknown substances inside the booth and at you through the change tray, having to worry about getting written up just because the clerk has to go to the bathroom and there is no relief around to watch the booth. Speaking about squirting substances, one time about 5 years ago, I saw a clerk have to set off the Halon system inside the booth for his own safety as someone squirted what appeared to be a flammable substance. When the Halon goes off, it turns the booth into a tornado and everything inside it(money also) was whirling around for about 30 seconds. The clerk had to clean up the entire booth which was an absolute mess afterwards, and still had to sell tokens as well while he cleaned up.
Cleaners having to clean up shit and vomit off the floor and seats, and avoid gagging and vomiting themselves by the smell of it, frequent write-ups by overzealous station supervisors, dealing with noxious chemicals such as bleach and sometimes not being supplied adequate protection. And two words: Snow Duty.
You all know the stuff that Bus Operators have to go through as they have one of the most stressful jobs that a person could have.
But meanwhile, people coming off the street get to bypass ALL of this and go directly to train operator. THAT IS UNFAIR.
I'm not displaying sour grapes because you guys are simply taking advantage of a limited window of opportunity that is being given by the TA to people off the street. If I was in your position, I'd be doing exactly the same thing.
But don't be telling me that it is unfair because you have to wait a little longer to be called than usual. Think about all the crap that you are bypassing to get to this title that the other employees had to endure.
I was on the Hudson Line on Wednesday, 11/8/00. As I passed the Kawasaki Plant just north of the Yonkers Station, I noticed quite a few R142As sitting on the property. The highest numbered car I observed was 7321.
In addition to your observation(Far Rockaway A Train), I would like to know what track route was used to get them to the Kawasaki Plant or more importantly what track route or means is going to be used to get them to NYC Subway Territory.
They get trucked from Yonkers to 239th Street Yard, home of the 2 Line.
-Stef
Hey, Far Rock, where have you been hiding??
Good to see you posting again.
Did you take any pictures while you were up in Branford for "Autumn in New York"?
BMTman
Can anyone identify this Amtrak Caboose? I took this photo last winter at the Hunterspoint Ave LIRR station.
Dan
nyrail.cjb.net
Can anyone identify this Amtrak Caboose? I took this photo last winter at the Hunterspoint Ave LIRR station.
It looks very similar to an old PRR N5 or N5B model caboose!
Nifty orange caboose, but what is the machine named "BURRO" to the left of it. Anything with a name like that has tobe pretty cool.
While you can't see very much of it, burro is short for burro crane,
This is a crane car in a smaller version. It is used in work trains to assist crews in loading and unloading rail and ties at the scene of track repairs. It is not big enough to be used at the scene of train wrecks normally, where a heavy duty crane car would be used!
I had talked to a T/O in my church about this sometime ago. When u pull the dead man switch towards you, there is first position called swithing. I dunno but I think it cannot go faster than 10-15mph. Then there is series, which allows you to go faster than that. Parallel is my personal favorite, because it makes the train Fly!. Then when u enter the Station u push the controller back to its beginning postion called coast, and some call it off. Then u pull the brake handle. The brake handle position is Release, Running release which holds a good 5-10lbs on the Train. I hear u are supposed to run in running release according to a TSS on the 7 and the Motorman passbook. Its release, running release, then 80 pounds is Full service, Anything pulled after that will put the Train in emergency. I was on the 2 and this happened after Emergency is handle off.
The R46 which runs on the F is the same exact thing except it is all done in one hand. I hope they keep those till I become a Motorman so I can operate on b4 they dissappear.
First of all switching is only for slow speed move over switches and and yards and the controller can not be keeped in this posion for more then a few second. If it keeped and longer the train resters can burn up. The next postion is series whtch is used for speed up to 18mph. Them there a parallel witch is used for the max speed.
You also have the brake wroung. There are 7 poision Handle off, Emergency, Full Brake & Charge, Serivice range, Snow brake, Running release and Full release. Snow brake keeps about 5psi of brake on during bad wather . Running ralease is used for letting the air out in all the cars at one time by eltric values, and Full release let air out from one car to another. This is slower to.
I hope this helps.
Robert
Actually you can keep the controller in switching for over a minute before the resistors get hot and five minutes before they burn out. It is not recommended that you test my theories though.
I am not going to even try. I just do as I am told.
Robert
Deadman is not a position. It is a feature on the controllers. When the T/O lets go of the controller and does not have the brake applied the train stops. It's called the deadman feature because if the T/O dies he can't hold onto the controller and the train will stop.
running on...
That is of course if the T/O doesn't die on top of the controls. Then you have a deadman holding down the deadman.
How about those T controllers. The deadman is disable by holding
the the handle in the T-position. Are those type more resistant to
"A deadman holding down the deadman"?
Probably. But you never know.
Little known rule: All TOs dying while operating a train MUST fall to one side or to the back of the cab. Those found in violation will be disciplined.
THAT is what I thought this Tread was about "DEAD MAN POSITIONS" the positions a DEAD MAN would be in. I did't know there was a running position on the controller for Dead Man... Does the conductor have to call out "DEAD MAN OPERATING" over the PA??
Hey, Lou. I thought the "Dead Man's" controller had only two positions: "Dead" and "UnDead" (or perhaps that should be changed to "The Living Dead")....sorry for the silliness...
Thought I'd just share alittle T/O humor with ya...
BMTman
Maybe you should drop by the related thread called "Controller
Positions" which should be a few messages away.
The R46's should be around for at least the next 20 years so you have plenty of time. The R44's also have the one handed controller.
One thing to note; the R46 controller is the hardest one to hold down as it offers the most resistance.
I was told by a few T/Os that the R44 was the hardest to hold down. I was also told that no one could charge up an R44 in a school car. Isn't it just the standard "Insert Reverse Key" and "Move controller to Full Service?"
running on...
The hard part about charging up a R44 is that when you insert the reverser, you also have to push the reverser in and to the left for forward or to the right for reverse. It can be difficult even for regular T/O's. They have you push the reverser inward so as to avoid hitting it with your leg or any other part of your body by accident.
Then there is a "shut down lock" knob on top of the controller and to the left. With the knob, you have to twist it to the left and then lift it up while it is still twisted and at the same time move the controller to the emergency position. After all that is done then you can move the controller to the full service position and charge the train up. And hold your ears or wear your hearing protection while it is charging as the noise inside the cab is absolutely deafening.
As you can see, charging an R44 is no piece of cake. So you can see why charging an R44 to a T/O in training is like trying to read chinese.
Today I was walking into the library and I saw a poster duct taped to the door advertising a showing of "Style Wars" a "Hip-hop documentary about the rise of the subway graffiti phenomenon in NYC. Featuring the legends of graf: ZEPAYR, LADY PINK, LEE, the FAB 5, QUICK, KASE II, DONDI and dozens more...". Unfortunitly it was last night. I looked up the film on the IMDB and you can find a little more info at http://us.imdb.com/Title?0177262.
On the poster there is a poor photocopy of the video cover showing some graffiti covered subway trains. I can't ID them but they are white w/ the blue stripe, square windows and one is possibly numbered 5225 or 6225.
I'm sorry I didn't notice the poster earlier. Even though I was unable to attend maybe some of you would have wanted to drive up here and see it. My bad.
I just found an abandioned station shell on the J- Remains of the Chestnut Street Station. It is geographically West of Crescent Street. All that remains is the framework of the former island plat. More later!
I think that's the framework for the LIRR connection.
There was no station there.
I noticed this framework years ago. It does look like a station. It's looks exactly like the framework of the old Cypress Hills terminal.
There never was a Chestnut St station on the J. What you see is the remaining steel girders from the LIRR connection. The connection was severed around 1918, but the actual el girder work between Fulton St and Atlantic Ave remained until 1940. Apparently in case the connection might need to be reopened. Around 1940 the LIRR (which operated at street level) on Atlantic was put underground, eliminating the possibility of using the connection again and it was removed.
I noticed in Salaam's video (made last fall), that some of the steelwork from the connection still remained between the tracks on Fulton St.
What everyone should be amazed at is that the VanSiclen Ave Station on Fulton used to be a side platform station, and that there was a center layup track where the current center platform station now stands!
I think Pork is correct. Read about it about on this page (about halfway down the page).
I guess that I have no way of proving this, but an oldtimer in my neighborhood told me in the 1940's that the turnoff from Fulton was at Chestnut. The actual connection with the LIRR was at Euclid, one block east. I remember that the square block bounded by Chestnut, Fulton Euclid and Atlantic was a huge empty lot in those days, except for the gutted shell of a large brick building at the north end facing Fulton Street.
For everyone who knows that there is a whole site here besides Subtalk, Dave has put up a ton of pictures for the new European Section. Thanks to Theo Neutelings for sharing his pictures with us. It's gonna take forever to see them all. I like the way Dave changed it where under each city, it says how many sections and pictures there are. I miss the short little descriptions of each city, however. Anyway, thanks Dave, it looks great!
To my fellow SubTalkers:
Due to the requests here, I am setting up a tentative tour of the Bush Terminal/Brooklyn Army Terminal area on Sunday, November 26th.
The meeting place and time: 36th Street station of the N train in Brooklyn (mezzanine by the fare control booth). 11:30 a.m.
contact me at my email address if you need further details.
BMTman
Quick! Sign me up! I think I'm freight crazy right about now. I spent the day staking out the CSX Trash Train (among others) in Ridgefield Park, NJ, and enjoyed the sights and sounds of the train as it passed by. Oy vey! Did I say it was a smelly experience as it made it's way from the Bronx to Virginia by way of Selkirk?
-Stef
Stef, I hope you were not knee-dig in raw sewage or anything. We might have to hose you down!
I'll see you on the 26th (or before that, if you're going to do Branford on the 18th).
BMTman
Stef,
This seems to be bad news for the R-17!
I guess the next thing is that you will want BERA to preserve an SD-45!
The R-17 is still important to me. But I like a little of everything....
-Stef
Do some of those trains also come from Boston and go to Virginia? I always used to see them in Beacon Park yard in Allston.
In Baltimore, the CSX (Ex-B&O) line passes right over BSM's line, right outside our Visitor Center. We see the trash train frequently, and many times the consist is the Tropicana Orange Juice train on the front and the trash train on the back (with the FRED on the last coupler). Interesting consist, to say the least.
Sign me up BMTman, will probally bring along my Grandson.
Mr t__:^)
Hope you don't mind my changing the Subject line a little ...
Went to Willis Hobbies in Mineola this Saturday & saw just the book we need for this trip: Brooklyn Waterfront Railyways ... $30
Also, Interboro Fleet at $37
Also, under The Sidewalks of NYC at $20
AND that map book that everyone is waiting for "12 Historical NYC Street & Transit Maps, Vol II 1847-1939 at $36 ... so if you are still waiting for that copy you ordered at the show I assume it's on it's way.
The point is that this store has a rather nice collection of subway stuff.
I bought the LIRR calendar, the inside cover of RailPace (which I also bought) is an adv. for the following calendars:
- NY Subways, i.e. Bill Newkirk's
- LIRR
- AmTrak
- NYC
- PRR
- NYNH&HRR
- Erie Lackawanna
- NYS&W Ry
- NYO&W Ry
- D&H
- N&W Ry
- Philadelphia Rapid Transit
- Wisconsin Central
- ACL/SAL
- Milwaukee Road
- Vermont Rail Sys
- San Francisco Streetcars
Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with the sale of any of this stuff, so am only listing it as a service to my SubTalk friends.
Mr t__:^)
Mail order requests for those out of town on those railroad calendars mentioned by Thurston should be directed in writing to:
Weekend Chief Publishing Co.
PO Box 165
Hicksville, NY 11801-0165
Bill "Newkirk"
That's the place ...
BTW, Willis Hobbies has quite a few of them if you want to do some early Christmas shopping.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
That's okay, the publisher at Weekend Chief is my friend who is responsible for teaching me all I know about creating and marketing the Subway Calendar.I just added my knowledge of subways to it and the rest they says is history.
I stopped by Willis Hobbies tonight and saw the new Waterfront Railway book that was mentioned here. It's hardcover and is about $45.00, guess that's because it chocked with color photos.
Bill "Newkirk"
There you go Doug, I told ya I was operating the 26th, no one was signed up. I will once more miss this great tour. :-(
Stop the crying: you were given the poor man's (50 cent tour) version of the Waterfront tour during the summer if I recall? ;-)
BMTman
I hope to be there.
Perhaps we'll get to see the "Brooklyn Central RR" cars inside the BAT again.
Conductor stabbed
ANOTHER HAPPY CUSTOMER
Peace,
ANDEE
The stabber lives at 98th and Central Park West. Isn't that a high rent district ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, it only proves that the 'upper class' can go bonkers too!
I see a padded cell for that guy at Bellvue (alongside heypaul).
BMTman
11/13/2000
[I see a padded cell for that guy at Bellvue (alongside heypaul).
Doesn't heypaul refer to his padded cell as a cushioned condo at the Magificent Bellvue Hilton ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The stabber lives at 98th and Central Park West. Isn't that a high rent district?
Yep. Which means, of course, that he'll get off.
"The stabber lives at 98th and Central Park West. Isn't that a high rent district ?"
Not really. It's a complex of hi-rise apartment buildings.
There actually is no intersection of CPW and 98th St. W. 98 is cut off at Amsterdam. Between Amsterdam and Columbus on what would be W. 98th is a NYC housing project. I don't recall whether the buildings between Columbus and CPW (which apparently is where Mr. Stern lives). are public housing or not. Either way, I certainly wouldn't characterize them as upscale.
Chuck
Contrary to popular belief, the Upper West Side is NOT all wealthy. Similar to on the East Side, CPW's personality abruptly changes above 96th Street. There are some very large projects east of Columbus between 97th and 104th. Columbus and Amsterdam start to decline around 91st Street, where there's also a project. My friend who works on Amsterdam between 95th and 96th says you see equal parts Yuppies, working poor and homeless.
It's largely upscale west of Broadway from 72nd all the way up to Grants' Tomb. I have noticed a subtle change in the populace in the various regions of Riverside Park. The 83rd Street and 91st Street playgrounds are largely Yuppie, with a lot of kids accompanied by nannies. The 97th Street playground has a much more Latin presence. We've been there about five times, and there's always a mother and children selling loose toys out of a supermarket wagon, and someone pushing a rickety wagon loaded with those glass beakers filled with colored syrup that you squirt onto dirty shaved ice.
The attacker is almost a senior citizen!
AND he lived at 98th Street and Central Park West!!!
Sometimes FACT is stranger than FICTION!
BMTman
Good thing he didn't have to vote on any of those machines in Palm Beach County. If he gets that confused and made trying to find Pacific Street, we'd have dead election officials by now :-)
With all the GO's on 4th Ave this weekend, I felt like stabbing someone myself.
BTW, NO annoucment was made on the D UNTIL we arrived at Dekalb that there wasn't any tunnel service. Come One Guys, lets make it at Atlantic so I can catch the IRT.
Saturday it was not any better on the IRT. With every uptown No.4 train going out of service at 125 Street and everything on the same track there was a back up all the way to 96 Street.
At 4pm every thing went bad. The Express tracks where closed from 125 Street to Grand Central. A Downtown No.6 train at 86 Street had a heavy smoke coming from under the train holding up the Downtown service. Then at the same time there was a police action at 14 Street where power was turned off.
This G.O that helped cause a lot of problems will be in effect next weekend.
I will do a new post about the G.O.
Let me just currect something the Express tracks where closed from Grand Central to 125 Street because it was part of the G.O.
I was using the 4 from Court Street to Atlantic Ave. A lot of angry customers when they notice arrival at Atlantic on the local tracks (no annoucment until arrival).
I was on some Redbirds that had route maps for the 2 but was correctly signed for the 4 (sides and ends).
What has become of my fellow Brighton fan, Bob?
Is he still on vacation in New York?
Or has he fallen at the hands of some evil plot by Sea Beach Fred?
If anyone has any info -- please let us know. SubTalk isn't the same without one of my Brighton Beach Line comrades.
BMTman
For the past four years, I've loyally purchased the New York City
Subway calendar for use as both a calendar and a great collectable. Living
in Florida though, my only option has been to purchase the calendar by mail
order.
An on-line company by the name of "Netstuff.com" is where I've made my
purchase in the past. When I recently checked with "Netstuff" to place an
order for the 2001 calendar, I noticed they've outrageously increased the
price of the calendar. I feel it's now time to look elsewhere... (For you
fellow subway enthusiasts who routinely purchase this calendar, you'll
notice the calendar doesn't show a suggested retail price as most photo
calendars do). This unfortunately allows companies like Netstuff to charge
whatever they feel.
Does anyone know of another mail order vendor who sells this calendar?
Or perhaps know where in NY the calendar is sold? Your assistance would be
greatly appreciated.
Feel free to reply to this post or write me directly. My e-mail
address is: ja3@att.net
Many thanks!
Joe H.
You can order it at tmny.safeshopper.com.
You should drop an e-mail to "Bill Newkirk" who is on the site. His e-mail is "newkirkimages@msn.com" He has something to do with the calenders. :-)
running on...
Sounds like a job for "Rockabilly" Newkirk?!
I got mine at the Shoreline Trolley Museum Gift Shop during their Autumn in NY days on 10/7. Don't know if they do mail order.
Their website is linked from this board. Otherwise its www.bera.org
Reports in the Post and the Times say that former Police Commissioner Howard Safir is still being protected by a (taxpayer-supported) NYPD security detail three months after he left his job. I have just three questions:
1) Why protect someone who's no longer on the job? Even ex-Presidents no longer get lifetime Secret Service protection.
2) Why protect a police commissioner in the first place? People like that certainly are capable of defending themselves.
3) Safir left the NYPD to join an Atlanta-based corporate investigations and security firm. Why don't they protect him?
One might say that the cost of Safir's security detail is a drop in the bucket. While that's true, little things do add up, and more importantly it shows NYC's idiotic spending priorities. No wonder we'll never see a subway line on Second Avenue ...
No wonder we'll never see a subway line on Second Avenue ...
Because it would be buried beneath the surface!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
You're wrong about number 1 Peter.
An ex-president receives Secret Service protection until he dies.
Well the TA said they would have weekday service on Friday Nov. 10th but I guess they just meant that the Q would be running. None of the Weekday Only Token Booths or Entrances were open on Friday at Kings Highway on the Brighton. The ONE agent at the 24 hour entrance was overwelmed with the line out the door. The Hwy is yet to get any sign of Metrocard Vending Machines.
I hope when and IF the mighty TA puts in MVM's they will leave the E16th street entrance open. This entrance has many buses stopping there and is closed after 10pm weekdays and all weekend. I do not want to happen and have another Sheepshead Bay where the south metrocard entrance is CLOSED late night. They turn off the metrocard entrances, for what??
I forgot to post about the dangerous conditions the closed booths caused on the platform. During PM rush with BOTH Q and D arriving at the same time and only two stair cases open there were CRUSH loads on the platform for over 10 minutes as other D/Q's arrived (6-8 min headway).
Forget any pax trying to come up to the platform. STUPID STUPID.
This was discussed over a week before the Veterans Day holiday. Subway Buff bought up the fact that Station Dept. decided that Friday 11/10/00 would be a Sunday schedule, while RTO rightfully ran a regular (train) schedule. And both these departments are under the umbrella of Joe Hoffman's Dept. of Subways! Even public schools were open that day. It was agreed by all who responded that it was a bad idea. Apparently, you missed the thread.
Gosh I missed the tread!!
Still reported after the fact of the problems, sorry for that.
>>> Gosh I missed the tread!! <<<
Don't feel bad about missing it. It is getting hard to find transit related threads on this board amid the other crap.
Tom
Looking for people who can put an ID to a
tunnel and trackway discovered at about
500 West 48th Street (near 10th Ave).
No 3rd rail is present. Just tracks.
The Finder... but not the Keeper.
Isn't that the West Side freight line?
Arti
Looking for people who can put an ID to a tunnel and trackway discovered at about 500 West 48th Street (near 10th Ave).
No 3rd rail is present. Just tracks.
The most likely answer, of course, is the old New York Central freight line, now used by Amtrak's Empire service trains. If that's not the case, it might be a freight spur running off the line; I believe traces of some spurs still exist.
...And I thought "spurs" could only
be found in SAN ANTONIO!
Heard some things about HBK in 2001..
The G.O that was in effect this past weekend will also be in effect this weekend.
Here are the Service changes
No.4 Line
Split service
Woodlawn to 125 Street:
Woodlawn bound trains will be on the Downtown Express track at 125 Street.
125 Street to Utica Ave
Southbound trains make all local stops from 125 Street to Brooklyn Bridge.
Northbound Trains run Express from Brooklyn Bridge to Grand Central then all local stops to 125 Street where trains will go out of service and relayed at 138 Street- 3 Ave.
No. 5 Line: No Service from E 180 Street to Bowling Green.
No.6 Line: No change
Expect delays on all Uptown trains from 86 Street to 125 Street.
This will be in effect from 12:01AM Sat Nov 18 to 5AM Mon Nov 20.
This is all because of Track work on the Uptown No.4,5 track North of 125 Street.
But why are all IRT Lex trains running local from 42nd to 125th? If there was track work in the express section that would make sense, but if it's north of 125th why no express service?
The power is off for the express track at 125. The Bronx 4 leaves from the Downtown Express track.
Thanx Dave for the warning. Since I'll be working in The Bronx on Saturday, I now know to use the D when it's time to go home.
I don't have to worry about going to work on the train however. I use the Liberty Lines express bus on the Concourse for that.
As of noon today, the NASDAQ's down 4%, below 3,000 for the first time in a year, while the Dow's off about 2%. The Voice of Truth from Mount Olympus, also known as the financial press, attributes the drop to continuing jitters about the presidential non-election (which also were a big factor last week) but most of all to Hewlett-Packard's failure to meet quarterly earnings estimates. A big technology company like H-P is treated as a bellwether for the tech sector in general, so the missed forecast has hammered the share prices of many unrelated companies as well.
Being smart SubTalkers, let's deconstruct H-P's earnings announcement. If earnings were down because of slumping sales, that indeed would be a reason for concern as it might indicate slower economic growth ahead. But H-P's sales increased smartly, in fact at an accelerating rate. Its earnings shortfalls - which only exist when compared to estimates, the company remains hugely profitable - were due to a variety of factors that are fairly easily remedied and more importantly have little or nothing to do with larger economic conditions. There were some currency-exchange issues, which are to be expected given H-P's worldwide operations, and some expenses were higher than forecast, basically an internal matter. Oh, let's not forget, H-P has a backlog on certain software deliveries, in other words it can't make the stuff fast enough to satisfy demand.
Not that any of this means zip to sheeplike investors. Billions of dollars in shareholder value throughout the economy have been wiped out today. Can you say "herd mentality?"
Agreed. It's really hard to rationalize some of the valuations in the market (or why or how they got there).
And this has what, exactly to do with the topic of this board?
-Dave
(Dave's search for relevance)
Hmmm, well -- there's a new study out showing that in the recent election, a larger percentage of the electorate was made up of the rich ($100,000 annual income and up) than ever before.
Those higher-income voters are generally stock-market investors.
The rich-people-heavy electorate rejected the NY Transportation Bond Act.
Many transit supporters think it was stupid to reject the bond act.
Therefore, evidence that many of the same people who made up the voter base on Nov. 7 act stupidly in other aspects of their life is relevant to the search for answers into why the bond act was rejected...
Wow. That was a stretch.
Thank god those people act "stupidly" so we don't have to put ourselves in more debt to get LIRR to Grand Central without a Second Avenue Subway. Or maybe not even that.
Weren't there two bond issues for Second Avenue? Where's the subway from those?
Weren't there two bond issues for Second Avenue? Where's the subway from those?
Money from the early 1970's bond issue was squandered in the Beame Shuffle.
"Hmmm, well -- there's a new study out showing that in the recent election, a larger percentage of the electorate was made up of
the rich ($100,000 annual income and up) than ever before.
Those higher-income voters are generally stock-market investors.
The rich-people-heavy electorate rejected the NY Transportation Bond Act. "
See this is why I'm a socialist. Wealthy people are making the decisions, and this almost always hurts the working class and transit.
This probably happens because it is hard for working people to find the time to vote, and they need the money from their jobs from the hours. Wealthy people on the other hand, have time and transportation, so it's easy for them to vote. Why not have instructions in subway stations about how to get to polling places by bus, I was in the city on election day and hardly saw any signs on subways or buses about directions to polling places.
And because of these voter demographics of these yuppie snobs, politicians will ONLY gear to their needs, not most people.
Something is radically wrong with the process, Crony capitalism is way too intertwined with the democratic process, and it's going to destroy freedom and equality (and hurt transit too!).
Do you know how many different polling places there are? Only a socialist would think it's practical to post directions to all of them, everywhere. It's just like your failed economic system: a stupid idea.
And this has what, exactly to do with the topic of this board?
Directly, not much, and I'll certainly stop such postings if that's your wish. Indirectly, I'd say there's quite a bit of relevance. The subway's ridership and funding levels are inexorably tied in with NYC's economic health, and needless to say NYC is highly dependent on Wall Street for jobs and tax revenues. Again, though, please let me know if that's too indirect and you want the postings to stop.
Well, since your first post didn't try to make a transit connection directly or indirectly, maybe if you're making a post that's an indirect connection you could suggest what that connection is when you make the post?
Look, people, I realize economics and politics are tied to transit but there's a limit somewhere. Please try to find it... "investors are sheep" is pretty far from even an indirect tie to transit in my mind.
Well it does effect transit, because when yuppie stockbroker luxury SUV owners go to the polls in record numbers, the result for mass transit will not be good.
O V E R T H R O W T H E Y U P P I E S !
On Saturday, aware of the minefield on GOs involving virtually every Queens line, we parked at Ditmars to set off on our semi-monthly PATH trip. The fact that I got an incredibly close parking space and the train we got was a Slant should've tipped me off to how bad the rest of the day would turn out.
We got off at 23rd and walked a block over to 6th Avenue for PATH (using the Barnes & Noble as a bathroom stop). Knowing how the finicky PATH turnstiles treat dollar bills- once spitting it out under the 'stile and into the paid area- I took quarters, only to find the one 'stile that would take them had the coin slot taped over.
This required me to go back up to the 'F' token booth to buy a couple tokens in order to get singles.
After fifteen minutes, HOB came, immediately followed by JSQ. To avoid the rain, we changed at Grove rather than Journal. A half hour and three JSQ trains later, NWK finally came, packed to the gills. Luckily the front window was free.
An interesting detour (no doubt the reason for such a long wait) followed, in which we switched over to the inbound track near the Harrison facility, and then proceeded over a siding through a small shed while an inbound train passed us on the right! We stopped at the inbound Harrison platform and likewise came into Newark that way. Happily, we were spared from going up and down many escalators, not to mention paying another fare.
Got back to WTC alive and over the usual trackage. I figured we'd walk over to Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall where we could get a '4' or '6' (no '5' in Manhattan this weekend) up to Union Square and then switch over to the 'N' before it got too crowded. When we got down to the token booth, we were greeted with a flood of angry exiting passengers and word a power failure knocked out Lex service in BOTH directions. When an orange vest told people there was no 'N' or 'R' service at City Hall, the fur really flew. We could've gone over to the 'J' and made the long trek at Canal, but exiting volume made it impossible. Overwhelmed personnel could only give out block tickets and direct people to the M103.
We crossed City Hall Park to get to Park Place, passing an angry mob trying to get onto an uptown bus on Park Row whose driver knew nothing of a service disruption and wouldn't take the block transfers. Much as I wanted to avoid it, we had to get a '2' or '3' up to Times Square and get the 'N' there.
This was made worse by the twenty-minute wait for ANY uptown train. The impact of this power failure must have spread all the way back to Brooklyn, because when a '2' finally came, we could barely get on. After roosting at Chambers for a long time (no connecting '1') and the usual announcement "Uptown express, 14th next, change across the platform for the '1' local", we switched over and RAN LOCAL the rest of the way!! Talk about getting screwed every which way:
-No one got off because we were told we would be running express;
-People no doubt bailed at Chambers to catch the local when it turned out they didn't even have to;
-No one at the local platforms could get on even if they wanted to because the train was so crowded, although the appearance of a '2' caused so much confusion that any people considering getting on stood in the doorway asking what train this was.
-A '3' zoomed by at Christopher and just cut us off at 14th.
-Another '2' stopped next to us on the express track at Penn and then crossed in front of us onto the local track due to work at Times Square, allowing longer dwell time for more loaded-down shoppers to cram on.
Most of the width of the Times Square platform was taped off, leaving space as narrow as a window ledge along the local track. Luckily, the train we got off couldn't move due to inevitable congestion ahead. There were several work cars and heavy welding being done on the downtown express track, no doubt part of the continuing renovation.
Of course, the '2' conductor advised us of the '7' downstairs, having probably not been told about that GO. Even worse, the stairs leading down to the lower mezzanine and the '7' were open- I sure hope the stairs to the platform were taped, or someone was there to tell people. No matter, we had to get up the front stairs and through an extremely narrowed out passageway to the 'N' and 'R' platform. There, the presence of an 'R' on the express track (yet another GO) was causing nervous breakdowns.
Fortunately, the 'N' took 'only' ten minutes to come, and a seat opened up at 49th. Half the door panels on the left side of a 2800-series car weren't working, causing lots of heated confrontations at Lexington and the Plaza.
Luckily, I had a 'funeral brunch' in Howard Beach yesterday. How were YYOUR weekend train rides?
Actually, nowhere near as bad as yours. Saturday, I left home at 0001 to drive through NJ to get to work - seems that DOT GOs closed two out of three lanes on the inbound Gowanus - at Van Cortlandt Park.
Made the 0128 VC - 0233 Chambers
0348 VC - 0452 Chambers
0715 VC - 0820 Chambers
Drove home - through NJ again and back again the following night
Sun arrived VC at 0027 and was asked to jump ahead and make the 0028. Would normally have taken my time, but the 28s have to arrive close to on-time, or else a lot of people get stranded at SouthFerry for an hour. Arrived at 103 St to stare at a red over red. TSM called that a collector was moving in front of me, and sure enough it came off 1 Track at 96 onto M Track at 103. When the homeball cleared, I came around the curve to find all the timers at danger while TSM crossed a work train in front of me, then was forced to wait while they moved it again at 72 St. Amazingly enough, when I got to 42 St, they did not ask where I lost my time. We finally got to the ferry with about a minute to spare, instead of the usual 12.
We then made a 0133 at 36 from Chambers. Leaving 137 St, I could see a red over red at 145 St, and started calling Control. While stopped at the red homeball and with another one at the leaving end of the station and with a red lantern between the rails at the leaving end, I watched a Signals flagman give me a Proceed. Control and 240 Tower finally got the Signals crew to clear off the two homeballs, but I still had to creep at them, because the red lantern was less than one car length from the 10 car stop marker. The flagman finally turned off the red lantern and gave me a Proceed, and got annoyed when I made him come back to take the lantern from between the running rails. All in all I lost about 15 minutes at 145 St.
I then made the 0308 VC and 0413 Chambers
and the 0628 VC and 0734 Chambers.
Monday (last night, depending how you look at it), I booked off sick because I've managed somehow to strain the muscles across my right lower ribs - makes bending really hard.
Who said working midnights caused all sorts of grief with the GOs running?
Well I was in the city Saturday, and luckily did not have too many problems. Took an 11:49am LIRR train from Great Neck, arrived in the city by 12:30pm. Then I rode on the "N", through the dash and across the Manny B (as per G.O.).
Crossed over at Dekalb and got the D train to W4th, then an "A" to Chambers.
Walked around WTC mall, then a very overcrowded "E" train at around 2pm. Got off at Chambers to catch an "A" across the platform.
Then got off at 14th street to get the "L". The ride Brooklyn bound through the 14th street tubes was not impressive, had a scaredy cat T/O.
Going back had another R42, this time rear window. The ride back to Manhattan from Bedford was faster, through the 14th street tubes.
I have noticed there is new lighting in the tunnel on the Brooklyn side. Got off at 14th, then got an "A" up to 34th, and had an early dinner at the Manhattan Mall.
Then I took an "N", this time and R68A, which was pretty fast through the dash, and got off at Grand. Walked on over to Canal street, which was very crowded, and just made an "N" train. This was an R32 and I was able to get the front window, it was a slow ride with an R in front of us. 60th street was quick though, then arrived at QBP. Wasn't too crowded there, and a "7" did show up within 5 minutes. There was a cover on the signals there, and a work train on the lower level IRT.
The ride on the 7 wasn't too bad at all. I guess I was lucky because I stayed away from the IRT and BMT for the most part. I do think with these G.O.'s, and the older age of the IRT and BMT, it is a place to avoid next weekend, I'll stick with the more modern and reliable IND.
>>>We crossed City Hall Park to get to Park Place, passing an angry mob trying to get onto an uptown bus on Park Row whose driver knew nothing of a service disruption and wouldn't take the block transfers.<<<
Wouldn't take block transfers? I would have reported his ass. Block passes are good for 48 hours. This was not his call to make.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well I rode over to Broadway junction to check on things there. The platform for the (L) at Broadway Junction was closed for rehab work. So (L) trains were running shuttle between Rockaway Parkway and Eastern Parkway (J). The best part of this was they were following the route of the #14 Broadway Short line, using the seldom used flyover tracks.
The only time I remembered using these tracks was on ERA fantrips. I don't recall using them in regular service since it would have to be before Chrystie St.
Went downstairs to Broadway-East NY. Waited for an (A)express but got on the AC propulsion R-38's (red stickers). Rode them to check them out and their silly sounds I've been hearing about. At Utica Ave, we switched over and ran express, so it wasn't half bad.
Bill "Newkirk"
You should've gotten the PATH at 34th instead of 23rd and saved yourself the walk.
At Times Sq they leave the 7 platform open so people could use the one-way escalator to the N/R instead of the ridiculously long ramp.
Yes, that's true, but I prefer to get PATH at 23rd rather than 34th for a couple of reasons: one is the profusion of belligerent beggars in the Herald Square complex combined with heavy congestion of people who don't know how to read the many directional signs.
The other is that the Barnes & Noble at 6th and 22nd has a bathroom, and when you travel with a young child, you have to keep a mental databases of where bathrooms are. Bookstores are very reliable when it comes to this, much more so than eateries or department stores. Several unpleasant experiences in the restrooms at Newark Penn Station have inspired us to relieve ourselves before and after PATH.
Whenever we do PATH, we always go out via the 6th Avenue branch and back in to WTC, or vice versa. We once used WTC both ways and got a dirty look from the Borders manager when he realized we had been there an hour earlier.
Actually, after all the trouble we had that day, walking a long block from 5th to 6th Avenues was- well, a walk in the park!
I go to thw WTC Borders for a bathroom break as much as 3 times when I go to the city, and for the most part I haven't been harassed, but sometimes the manager does look at me.
I never see any families with kids in there, so guess if you aren't from the "street" the mgmt might give you a look.
I went to Union Station, Washington D.C. to get Amtrak's Thanksgiving schedule. There are two extra Metroliner trains I am very interested. They are Metroliner 228 and 229. They only run on Wednesday and Thursday.
It takes both trains 2 hours and 44 minutes between New York and Washington. Metroliner 228 departs from DC at 7:50AM, and arrived at NY at 10:34AM. Metroliner 229 departs from NY at 12:30PM, and arrived at DC at 3:14PM. They both stop at Washington, Baltimore, Wilmington, Philadelphia, Trenton, Newark, and New York.
Clearly Amtrak is going to use Acela Express to run on Metroliners 228 and 229. My camera is going to be ready for this Acela Express Trainset!
Chaohwa
I'll see if I can get any shots. When does it pass by New Carrolton??
Also, has Amtrak released the times for the DC to Boston runs that start December 11 yet?
The travel time between DC and New Carrollton is approximately 9 minutes. That is, it will pass through New Carrollton around 7:59AM and 3:05PM, respectively.
The December 11 schedule will be available around December 8.
Chaohwa
So they are going to sell tickets before the train has a schedule? How is Amtrak going to do THAT?
As of about a week ago, the schedule I've seen around on the Internet was...
DC 5:00am - NYC arrive 7:44am, depart 8:03am - Boston 11:31am
Boston 5:12pm - NYC arrive 8:40pm, depart 9:00pm - DC 11:43pm
(with intermediate stops, of course)
Amtrak has (finally) posted schedules on the Acela website (direct link to schedules: http://www.acela.com/schedules/index.html). This is for regular service starting in Dec, nothing to do with the VIP run today.
Metroliner 228 departs from DC at 7:50AM, and arrives at NY at 10:34AM. Metroliner 229 departs from NY at 12:30PM, and arrives at DC at 3:14PM.
Amtrak's online timetable as of 3:45 PM Monday shows Metroliner 228 leaving Washington at 7:14 AM and arriving NY at 10:34 Wednesday and Thursday (Thanksgiving). However, it shows the same times as your timetable for return Metroliner 229.
Bob
You beat me to it. It doesn't appear this train stops at New Carrollton, am I right?
You are right. Both trains travel between Baltimore and DC nonstop.
Chaohwa
Oh, it should be typing error on the website. The travel time would be 3 hours and 20 minutes. Too slow for Metroliner.
Chaohwa
In the November issue, Railpace magazines Amtrak columnist Andy Kirk authored a comparison between an AEM-7 and a P-42 which each pulled the same 6-car Amfleet train from New York to Washington, with the engine change in Philly because the toaster was needed for another train. AEM-7 #906 or 907 (he said both) consistently accelerated the train from zero to 100 mph in 2 to 3 miles and easily held 125 mph where permitted. P-42 #103 took 5 to 6 miles to reach 100 mph and had difficulty going faster with a 110 mph diesel speed limit.
Well a toaster weighs 30 tons less and has 2000-3000 more horsepower. What did he expect?
What should Amtrak do aboot its shortage of electric locomotives. As far as I can see the E-60's are to stay on and the new HHP-8's and ACELA trainsets should take up some of the slack, but will this be enough. Already Amtrak is using P42's to haul its Silver trains from Philly and they want to expand electric service to Harrisburg and Boston. Here are some possible short term solutions:
See if NJT has some E60's still lying around in storage. Rebuild at Wilmington or Altoona.
See if NJT/Amtrak still has some E44's lying around in storage. Rebuild at Wilmington or Altoona.
Rebuild surplus GG-1's at Wilmington or Altoona
Order more ALP-44's or AEM-7's from whoever makes them.
These are all "possible" options. Can anyone form an opinion as to which one is the best and most cost effective option? At the rate things are going w/ the HHP-8's new equipment won't arrive in time. Also keep in mind and any well rebuilt unit could be re-sold to a commuter line after Amtrak is done w/ it.
Not claiming to be an expert, but I'd say hitting up NJT for E60's wouldn't be a bad idea. Rebuiling E44's may not be worth it only because I don't see much use for them after Amtrak is done with them. GG1's probably wouldn't be worth because parts for them are scarce by now, not to mention they most likely fall into the too-expensive category.
My $0.02
Big D
The E44s are all gone, except one or two which have been preserved in museums. And the GG-1s, as much as I love them, are beyond rebuilding due to frame cracks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Isn't there also the problem of the voltage and cycle change to the power on all Northeast Corridor Lines? I read somewhere that that was a major factor in the retirement of the GG-1, although I could be wrong. Did the current get changed from 11,000 volts, 25 cycles to 20,000 volts, 60 cycles? I have asked some of the crews on Amtrak trains, but they did not know.
No, the current has never been changed. Someone else can probably tell you why - it's been discussed here before but I don't remember the answer. The plans to do so may have hastened the retirement of the GG-1's, but the cost of maintaining them was the final blow.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read elsewhere in Subtalk that cracking of the frames as well as lack of spare parts were big contributors to the retirement of the GG-1, but that voltage and cycle change was touted in TRAINS magazine some years agoas another big reason for the retirement also.
Yes, it was part of the plan... but they never did make the voltage change. I don't recall why it wasn't done - probably it didn't make as much financial sense as they originally thought.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Perhaps the development of relatively cheap solid state equipment to convert 60 Hz -> 25 Hz made the whole thing less attractive? That way they did not have to think about installing rotary converters, etc.
An HHP-8 is the engine that looks like a double-ended Acela front car?
For my $0.02, two words= MORE TOSTERS!
An HHP-8 is the engine that looks like a double-ended Acela front car?
Yes.
Ordering more ALP44 or AEM7 will take just as long as new HHP8s. The E60s have their own problems, and rebuilding GG1s and E44s is just not feasable. One is over 50 years old, the other doesn't exist in large quantities any longer. Both also would be expensive headaches, with PCB-containing transformers. One idea you didn't visit is trading some older diesels to MARC temporarily for some of their toasters.
-Hank
None of them are viable.
The E60's are pure junk. They track like shit, they weigh way too much, they dammage track, they're prone to derailment, they're unreliable, etc, etc, etc.
The GG-1s are all museum pieces. They've got way too much in the way of frame cracks, and the transformers and other parts are no longer available.
There is only one E 44 left.
The AEM-7s and ALP-44s are no longer made. Nobody makes 60's vintage locomotives anymore.
As for why an electric is faster, it's also got to do with the fact that full power is available immediately with an electric, they don't take time to wind up, also, they can double their power for short periods.
A shitty electric is better than a diesel. I say bring the NJT Ice Breaker E60's back. The ALP's were made as recently as 1995, why are they no longer available.
Believe me, the E60's are a disaster. Oh yes, and NJT scrapped the units anyway.
The Alps are based off the AEM-7 which is based off the RC-4 which is the 4th generation version of the RC-1. The RC-1 is an acient (60's) locomotive. I believe NJT was the last customer to buy them. The more recent RC-6 is used in Sweeden still, but the RC-4 is now used over there as a freight motor. NJT is ordering a newer design based on a German RR locomotive ASEA (?) made. I believe it's simply going to be an Americanized (i.e.US standard brakes, etc) version, just like the AEM-7 is an Americanized RC-4. With the advances made over the last few years, noteably AC traction, it's worth it for NJT. Hey, go ride on an Arrow some day. AC traction's nice :)
In Germany, the locos are designated as Class 101s. NJT is ordering them from Adtranz (Bombardier) if I'm not mistaken. Amtrak should do the same.
11/13/2000
The 2001 New York City Subways Calendar is now available at the SEPTA Transit Museum Gift Shop at 1234 Market St.
Thank you,
Bill "Newkirk"
Nice going Bill!!
THANKS ALLAN !
Bill "Newkirk"
Was there a reason for the IRT to make the dimensions what they are? I believe I read somewhere that the IRT did not want their line to be used for freight or mail. If this is the case, was that a problem on the elevateds? Where would the mail or freight go, just for intra-city stuff? I don't think there were any connections to other lines. Or, was it simply that they didn't think they would need more capacity? Hopefully it wasn't limited to something like the tight turn arounds, because there are better solutions than that.
While I'm at it, how did the IRT get the first cars into the subway? Where would a portal be for the cars?
The IRT was built to the standard Elevated Car that was in use at the time.
>>I believe I read somewhere that the IRT did not want their line to be used for freight or mail. If this is the case, was that a problem on the elevateds? <<
The popular explanantion that I heard was that August Belmont was afraid that the Big Railroad would try to take over "his" subway.
Considering the Railroad Barons of the era that would make some sense. But since Mr. Belmont used to take Mineola (his private car) out to Belmont racetrack using the connection to the LIRR at Atlantic Avenue, one would think that the Railroads were not a threat.
The big railroad must have been a popular concern back then. I know it was a factor in PRT's (PTC's predecessor) construction of the original Market Street line. Did BMT or BERy (or any of the other private transit companies in the major cities of that time) take action to keep their lines inaccessible by the railroads?
Big D
The LIRR at that time wasn't a threat simply because Belmont had a controlling factor in the financial running of the LIRR. So, there was a relationship between those two roads. At least for a time.
BMTman
Belmont didn't have TOO much to worry about as far the 'big railroads' were concerned..he had a LOT of friends in the industry...remember, at a time when they were backed up for regular wooden car orders, Belmont was able to convince the PRR to build the first all-steel passenger cars.[They must've owed the Rothchilds money...]
The IRT kept the older el specs of 9' wide cars. The BMT decided to use the wider 10' cars commonly used on commuter and passanger railroads of the time in an attempt to increase capacity. Belmont adamently refused to have his subway used for hauling freight, and I think this weighed heavily in the desire to stick to the narrower el configurations.
Part of this overlaps other responses, but this is what I was told a few years ago by a historian, who was giving a tour at the Transit Museum (NYTM):
1. Yes - the IRT stuck (thereby also "sticking" future generations) with the smaller cars, to avoid being used for freight.
2. The IRT tunnels were intentionally made with a lot of sharp, twisting curves, just to make sure that the line could only be used for passengers.
It's been said before here - but too bad we don't have the $$$ to redo all the IRT lines, giving every line the "B" size cars. (In additon to all the other subway improvements under discussion.)
I've heard all the considerations you've mentioned, particularly the first two. However, one of my own considerations is that the IRT was designed as a four track subway from Brooklyn Bridge to 96th Street. That makes it pretty wide. One of the things they tried hard to do was avoid underpinning buildings in that era. It's quite expensive and almost every building was masonry. That means that the entire box containing the railroad would stay inbetween the building lines, except for their sidewalk vaults. The vaults were takne by eminent domain. Now if you take a street like Pine Street (now Lafayette)and try to build a four track box meeting that street's width criterion, you might have to order narrower cars. If you take the difference in width and multiply that by cars running on four tracks, you are adding a lot of width to a subway. If you take the extra width and multiply it as a construction cost factor for that length of line, you are adding a fortune to an already expensive project.
Also, it is my theory that on the older pre-Dual System lines, the curves were more a result of trying to keep the railroad under the street than any other reason. The one big corner where Belmont would have had to underpin buildings was vacated and he built the Hotel Belmont on top of the curve, but built the hotel to rest on the planned or finished subway instead of building the subway to sneak under his hotel. This theory has been in my mind for a long time and your posting reminded me of it. If you or any other Subtalkers would be willing to assess this idea, that would be great. I've never heard this theory from anyone other than myself. Has anyone out there heard of it from another source?
Here's another theory on IRT width and general overall dimensions:
Has anyone ever considered that the IRT based their car width dimenions on that of the then current streetcars. Having worked up in Branford as a volunteer I've noticed that IRT equipment closely parellels the size of similar era street/trolley cars (lengths in some cases are also similar).
BMT/IND equipment, on the other hand, more closely mimics the scale of standard railroad "Pullman-car" type dimensions.
Anyone else notice this?
BMTman
Pine Street (now Lafayette)
That would be ELM Street (as in Nightmare on...), Pine is still there near Wall.
The only part of Elm not assimilated into Lafayette is that two block alley between Chambers and Duane called Elk street.
It seems to me that the IRT dimensions are much like those in Europe, such as London, which preceded New York in having a subway. Like it is said, In America everything comes in large sizes. Here again, the BMT was the innovator.
Here again, the BMT was the innovator.
The Brooklyn Bridge Line used 10 foot wide cars since its opening in 1883. This predated the BRT's standards by more than 30 years.
Many sources have indicated that the Grand Central to 125th Street segment of the IRT Lexington Avenue was built to accomodate 10-foot wide cars, since it was built to the Pre-Dual Contracts "Triborough" system dimensions (as was the 4th Avenue Subway in Brooklyn, and ultimately, the rest of the BMT subway). I have always wondered: Were the subway portions of the Jerome Avenue and Pelham Bay lines, and the Harlem River tunnel, also built to the wider dimensions, or were they built to the smaller IRT dimensions, since construction on them started after the Dual Contacts were signed?
The Harlem River tunnel fron the Lenox branch is most likely IRT-size, as is the West Farms portion of the White Plains Rd. line below E. 180th St. The WPR portion beyond E. 180th St. is built to Dual Contracts specs, as is the entire Pelham line. The 2nd Ave. line was suppposed to be tied into one or both of these segments, in which case the station platforms would have been shaved back to accommodate 10-foot-wide cars plus any other modifications.
In a nutshell, all Dual Contracts lines were built to B Division specs.
How about the Flushing (#7) and Astoria (N) lines? IIRC both lines (except the portion of the present-day N train from the tunnel to Queensboro Plaza) were built to the smaller IRT dimensions. The Astoria line station platfroms had to be shaved back after the "joint"IRT/BMT service ended.
How about the Flushing (#7) and Astoria (N) lines? IIRC both lines (except the portion of the present-day N train from the tunnel to Queensboro Plaza) were built to the smaller IRT dimensions.
Not so. The clearances were for 10 foot cars. The platforms were extended for 9 foot wide cars like those of the upper Lex and lower 7th Ave Lines. The Corona and Astoria Lines were originally opened for IRT use only. BMT El service to Astoria and Corona did not start until 1924.
The wooden platforms were designed for the 9 foot cars because cutting back 6 inches is not very difficult. The concrete platforms were designed for 10 foot cars and had a 6 inch plate extender. These plates continued in use until the concrete platforms were rebuilt during the last decade. The only survivors are the extenders at 111th St and the pre 1939 platform at Willets Point.
You could theoretically shave back the platforms on the Flushing line and run 10-foot-wide cars there as well. The only problem, of course, would be the Steinway tubes. You could have through BMT service to Flushing, but you could only have a shuttle between Times Square and Queensboro Plaza.
Or you could swap destinations.
Send the Tmes Square trains to Astoria, and the "N" trains to Flushing. But not until you get additional 'B' division cars. But the comfort index would jump a lot of points n the Flushing line. A single seat would be possible to the flower district, Chinatown and Wall Street South Brooklyn.
avid
Or you could swap destinations. Send the Tmes Square trains to Astoria, and the "N" trains to Flushing.
Just where would one store trains the Astoria-Times Sq trains?
The existence of the Corona Yard and lack of yard facilities on the Astoria Line dictated that Steinway Tunnel trains go to Flushing, not ridership patterns.
But the comfort index would jump a lot of points n the Flushing line. A single seat would be possible to the flower district, Chinatown and Wall Street South Brooklyn.
Direct service from Flushing (Willets Pt) to Chinatown and Wall St existed prior to 1942.
Isn't another reason the routes are configured as they are the desire to keep the busy #7 isolated from other lines? That way, snafus on other lines cannot bring down the #7 with them.
Your question about storage is a good one. Perhaps the unused express track could be used. Is the ROW of the LIRR that led to the Water crossing and used as an illegal dump, still vacant? I don't see a 13 station branch having that heavy volumn or the maxed out carrying capacity of the Flushing line. I'm sure a study or survey could give the results that may satisfy both of us. Of course the mandatory RECOUNTS and Appeals would be necessay.
avid
the maxed out carrying capacity of the Flushing line
What makes you think that the Flushing Line is maxed out? They are running 16% fewer rush hour trains than they did 30 years ago.
I guess the trains I board are very popular .
avid
Swapping destinations of the N and the 7, besides requiring all the platforms on the Astoria and Flushing lines to be either widened or narrowed, and all the signals there to have their stop arms moved to the other side of the track, would cause regular delays in service as the trains crossed each others' paths just east of Queensboro Plaza. Currently, a 7 train and an N train can arrive at QBP together and leave together, because the 7 always remains south of the N. Switching terminals would mean the lines would have to cross each other. That would certainly not lead to improved service.
Correct, so how do we get around this problem? Sit and complane or consider ways to correct this problem.
How about putting the #7 on one level and the N on the other and let the two lines move above and below each other? It shouild be a lot eaiser then building the dreamed of "DeKalb" connection underground. The platforms coud be done while in service with the addidion of a convertable edge to be truned 90' at the time of cutover. the stop arms could be done in service and finaized at cut over. the iron work could be accomplished by the same methods of building the Airtrain . Build a new station where the former platforms were. using the precast concret. The approaches are still there.
Every problem Is an opertunity! Yes there will be changes.
Bigger is better.
avid
Speaking about my "N" train, what has happened to the talk of possibly entending it, or some other train, to LaGuardia? It was a subject of much interest a few months back and I haven't heard much of it since. Has the plan been shelved, or wasn't there such a plan in the first place. BTW, it is out of the question to extend a line out to Kennedy, or that just too far away from the other lines?
BTW, it is out of the question to extend a line out to Kennedy, or that just too far away from the other lines?
Well, the A goes to the parking lot now (Howard Beach station), and the Airtrain will go to the terminals...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking about my "N" train, what has happened to the talk of possibly entending it, or some other train, to LaGuardia?
LGA cannot accomodate any more planes. So the myth that its lack of growth vis-a-vis EWK was due to lack of adequate mass transit has been exploded. It would appear that time spent in a cab between Manhattan and LGA is much less than the time spent in on the runway waiting to take off.
Swapping destinations of the N and the 7, besides requiring all the platforms on the Astoria and Flushing lines to be either widened or narrowed, and all the signals there to have their stop arms moved to the other side of the track, would cause regular delays in service as the trains crossed each others' paths just east of Queensboro Plaza.
This was not a problem when dual service was eliminated in 1949. The Astoria and Flushing trains could cross paths with grade separation. Eliminating this capability occurred in 1961, when the north side of the Queensboro Plaza station and its approaches were demolished.
Parsons got many of his ideas for the original IRT after a visit to Budapest. What were the dimensions of the cars in that city around 1900? That may have played a role.
--Mark
are 75 fot cars the longest the system can handle?
Yes, and the Eastern Division lines on the BMT (J/L/M/Z) can't even handle those. The 75-footers are limited to the IND and the BMT Broadway/Astoria and Southern Division lines, and several sections of tunnels had to be cut back before the R-44s were delivered in 1972.
I know there are spots that they can't run in, but where they can or at least on some lines where they do can they handle longer say an 85' with 5 doors per side? I sure longer wouldn't work on lower broadway but maybe the E,F or D???
They could have just put 5 doors per side on the 75' cars. If the 60' can have four doors, the extra 15' can handle another set of doors. Anyone know why they didn't do that? Also, if some of the tunnels had to be cut back for the 75 footers, why even bother with going through all that trouble of buying them? They should have stuck with 60' cars, and you would still be able to open the end doors.
My guess is that they figured they would need less of almost everything with 8 cars as opposed to 10. Less motors, compressors, wheels, brakes, etc, etc, etc.
As far as 5 doors per car, only the original designers know for sure.
doors are not only extra costs, leaves motors, controls, but also framing/structural issues. The 'rationale' of the 75' design was indeed fewer components and net vehicles for equivalent warm body throughput. Unfortunately, IMHO, this lead to 1. lack of compatability on some lines, and 2. the end door stupidity. (without wishing to start that thread over again, I will simply state that the convenience of changing one's location within a train is not something I would give up voluntarily)
The designers of the IND did consider a 60ft car with 6 doors in each side and the seats in the middle of the car. So, it would seem that, at least structurally, more doors are possible.
Peace,
ANDEE
They also considered articulation, too. They felt the BMT's articulated units could produce significant operating & maintenance savings.
--Mark
When the 75-footers start getting towards the end of their lives and people on the IND and BMT Southern Division wonder why these creaky old things are still around, that's when not having articulated cars will come into play, because the MTA won't be able to move them off to the Eastern Division, which, outside of the G and C lines, seems to be the final resting place for almost all B Division cars over the past 40 years.
Four 150-foot atriculated units -- divided into three 50-foot sections with three doors apiece, to make up a 600-foot train -- would have made more sense in the long run.
Have you seen the Line 14 trains in Paris? One long tube is the way to go. Those trains are badass, even better that they are ZPTO. Were the BMT arculated units similiar to this?
With an interior illumanated like the streetlights of Paris, the museum triplex 6095 A-B-C is here on Dave's website.
Singapore's MRT has exactly the same type of interior. 6 cars coupled together with the open connection between them.
--Mark
One bad thing about a design like that is that if you got on one side of the train, it would be hard to get off on the other side, especially if it was crowded. I like the idea of using outside hung doors so that you can have really wide doors. But NY winters would probably too harsh for them.
Probably one of the reasons they decided against it.
Peace,
ANDEE
So how did that error not get noticed? Where exactly are the areas where the R-44s and R-46s unable to negotiate the Jamaica Line and the Canarsie line? The R-9 which was modified to try out the system prior to the arrival of the R-44s was seen by me on the Jamaica line, so what gives?
There were three spots originally (now it may be down to two) where the R-44/R-46 cars could negotiate the curve, but if two were traveling around the curve at the same time, there could be problems.
They are the Marcy Ave. curve coming off the Willie B (since modified), the curve onto the Myrtle Ave. el from Broadway, and the infamous Cresent St. curve. Have an inbound and outbound R-44/46 (or R-68) meet at those locations, and dents or worse are likely to result.
Setting up schedules and signals so you avoid that ever happened is more trouble than it's worth -- it would almost be like single-tracking the J/M/Z at the danger spots -- so the 75-footers will have to live out their lives on the Southern Division and IND lines.
Sounds interesting, but I believe that someone in administration should have found out about that before signing on the dotted line.
Was there some plan in the past to have the Jamaica El demolished and replaced with a subway?
So they can negotiate the Canarsie Line without problems? If 2 75 footers were to meet at the Crescent Street curves, those apartment buildings may also be struck.
running on...
The Canarsie Line has some nasty curves as it winds its way around the lower reaches of Newtown Creek -- it's a section just crying out for articulated units.
As far as I know, the MTA has never sent a 75-footer down there, though I would guess the stretched R-1 with the whiskers on the sides probably made the journey 30 years ago to see exactly where the trouble spots were.
Yes, they have run the long ones down the Canarsie line, but not in regular service, for the reasons stated earlier in this thread. I've seen a photo - fan trip possibly?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The problem at Crescent isn't two trains sideswiping each other (there is space between the tracks for the platform or third track), and I don't think it's the buildings either, but simply the curve radius. This might cause the wheels to jump the rails, but even then, I heard they can go around it if very slowly. (That would explain how the 1/9 test did it)
Also, the Proble on the L between Grand and Graham seems to be uncertain. (One clue that there might be a problem is the fact that they didn't run the 46's here when they were having problems and were pulled off the main lines. Someone reported they one was brought to ENY yard for testing.). But if there is a problem, I 'm sure it can be resolved by removing the catwalk, particularly on the Canarsie bound side (the inner curve. The other side looks like it hs enough clearance).
4444
The problem at Crescent isn't two trains sideswiping each other (there is space between the tracks for the platform or third track), and I don't think it's the buildings either, but simply the curve radius. This might cause the wheels to jump the rails, but even then, I heard they can go around it if very slowly. (That would explain how the 1/9 test did it)
Also, the Proble on the L between Grand and Graham seems to be uncertain. (One clue that there might be a problem is the fact that they didn't run the 46's here when they were having problems and were pulled off the main lines. Someone reported they one was brought to ENY yard for testing.). But if there is a problem, I'm sure it can be resolved by removing the catwalk, particularly on the Canarsie bound side (the inner curve. The other side looks like it hs enough clearance).
4444
on the
Eighth Avenue, Manh Rockaway Pkwy, Bklyn
Well, why not rebuild these curves? That would allow more operational flexibility, and it would reduce maintainence on the curves.
They did do it on certain curves on both the BMT Southern Division and IND lines in the early 1970s (The Vescey Street `S' curve on the N/R is one spot that was modified), but I guess the MTA decided redoing the lattice work on the J/M/Z el and cutting out the L around Grand Street to allow for a 10.5 percent wider turning radius was not justified economically.
Since the R-143s are going to be 60-footers to run on the L and other Eastern Division lines, it doesn't look like the MTA has changed its mind since then, though when the first 1,000 or so 75-footers start reaching the end of their functional lives, and the place old trains normally get shunted off to is not an option, they may reassess the situation rather than deal with complaints from riders on the A, E, F or N lines about their unreliable old trains.
Weren't those cars ordered for the 2nd Ave subway.
Arti
Yes, they were. As were the R-11s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Probably not. Budapest Subway #18 built 1896 is 36'4" long, 7'6" wide, (get this!) 8'9" high. Yep, it's a low floor subway car due to very tight clearances in their subway. The car is at Seashore.
I have read elsewhere, mainly about London, that building subway (or their tube) lines under streets avoided resumptions, noise, etc to adjacent buildings which as you say, were all masonry then. The Piccadilly Line in London has several very sharp curves in the Knightsbridge area which, when you check them with a good map, closely relate to nearby streets. But London has mainly clay soil.
I would go on the side of staying with known equipment; the EL cars were about that size and initially I guess they copied them for use before Gibbs designed a steel car - but by then the subway was already under conctruction. See also a posting in this thread about pre-1900 street cars in Museums today being about the same size: maybe its easier to stay with known designs than new ones. A theory only.
ALSO....I don't know this for a fact..BUT could another factor be the tunneling shields of those days only came in certain dimensions?? [thats the reason why the H&M was built to eisentially the same dimensions]...they knew at that time that they would have to tunnel under the East River for the Contract Two segment eventually, so that, plus the elevated factor [Im sure that Belmont would want to have someday incorporate the el network into his subway someday..and ended up doing so partially....] PLUS the property line factor made the dimensions a moot point almost....
The first IRT subway cars, the Composites and Gibbs Hi-Vs, were brought in through the Lenox Ave. branch. Although that part of the line was still under construction in 1904, trackwork had already been installed. The Composites were already running on one of the East Side els, and were floated by barge to the Lenox Ave. branch.
Which also explains the size since the interoperability between the subway and the els survived until the end of the Suburban(3rd Av) in 1973.
Rob from Atlanta:
I think that one of the reasons the IRT chose the 9' width for the subway cars was because August Belmont didn't want the big railroads to be able to use the subway tunnels for anything.
BMTJeff
Above the windows on a R142A I was on a couple of days back there was an interesting piece of art that showed a drawing of a R142A in the first frame then several frames of steel work and stuff. It was pretty neat. Has anyone else seen it? Does anyone know if this is on all of the R142A's? I'm not sure what the car number was. I wouldn't mind having a copy of it :)
-Shawn
At the very least, the 7211-7220 train has this motif; the same artist that made the mosaics at 36th Street (B/M/N/R) did this piece as well.
wayne
There is a picture of that artwork on this site, taken by the webmaster, here's a link:
R-142A ARTWORK
Peace,
ANDEE
For all those concerned, Brighton Beach Bob did not touch base with some of you in New York because he had a bad cough, possibly bronchitis. He says he is feeling better, and wants everyone to know that he got that job he wanted in Virginia and will be moving there within a few months. Sorry BMT Doug, there was no Sea Beach Fred plot in the works. Actually, Bob is my closest comrade on this site, and we have developed a friendship even though we've never met. It is good to know he is recovering and I'm sure we all wish him a speedy recovery.
Good to know he's doing better.
Give Bob my regards.
BMTman
I will. And since he will be moving to Virginia he will probably be able to partake in more of the activities that your groups have put together. If I retire in June I hope to be able to do the same. Have a good day.
Does anyone know if they are still delievering R142's to NY&A Fresh Pond Yard? I live just a couple of blocks away from there. Does anyone know what the delievery schedule or anything is? I can try to get some pictures or something.
-Shawn
Check with Stef or SubBus. The three of us are trying to figure out ways of getting a handle on the time the deliveries will occur (particularly the ETA of NY&A to Linden Shops).
BMTman
I've spoken to a guy from NY&A, he says they get a mere one day of notice, so it's difficult to predict.
-Hank
It should be noted that CP previously handed off the 142 cars to CSX at Oak Point Freight Yard (Bronx), as this was the Railroad's Terminating Point. Now that CP has trackage rights to Fresh Pond, the 142s can go directly there. My chances of seeing 142s at Oak Point are highly unlikely unless I want to be around the yard at night. During the day, the cars get unloaded at Fresh Pond and then head for Linden Yard with a New York and Atlantic Loco. The rest of course, is up to NYCT to get it's cars from Linden Yard.
-Stef
As a matter of fact 5 more cars came in today. 6341-6345.
Do you know around what time? I was watching a train that crawled by at around 11:00am or so today but couldn't stick around long enough to watch the whole thing go by (I was already late for work). I might grab my camera and take a walk to the yard later tonight. Hope there's something worth seeing.
Where do they take the cars after they get to Fresh Pond? How are they brought on to the NYCT tracks?
-Shawn
They're pulled by one (or more) of the NY&A diesels down the Bay Ridge branch over to Linden Shops (primarily a track fabrication facility for the NYCT). The shops can be partially seen from Linden Blvd. And the point where the transfer occurs between NY&A and the NYCT should be visible from the New Lots Ave. station of the Canarsie Line.
The NYCT "freight division" called The South Brooklyn Railway takes charge of the R-142's and takes them up the ramp to the "Y" structure that branches off to both the IRT (New Lots Line) and the BMT/IND (via the Canarsie Line just before Livonia station). The SBK diesels (either N1 or N2) will haul the new cars via system up to the yards in the Bronx.
In a nutshell, that's how the delivery is done.
BMTman
Yonkers to Brooklyn to the Bronx. A long way to go such a short distance.
Sounds as if they get taken for a real ride.:-)
Yeah, the initial "test run" if you ask me.
BMTman
Guys, read my posts and check the delivery notes. Bombardier Cars get delivered by freight from Plattsburgh, NY and Kawasaki ships it's cars from Yonkers to the Bronx by truck and gets unloaded at 239th St Yard, as opposed to Bombardier's at Linden Yard in Brooklyn.
-Stef
Waiting for an R-142 to come my way!
What time did they get to Fresh Pond? I didn't see anything last night.
I have not seen these as of yet and may be on the way as of this writing.
-Stef
Oh I just forgot, there were NO SBK engines at East 180th St Yard this evening as I passed, so 6341-45 have not been delivered to that yard as of yet. With 6341-45 here, I suspect that we may see 6346-50 in about 5 days. It makes sense because 6331-35, and 6336-40 were delivered 5 days apart!
-Stef
Click here. Most absurd article. I found some pretty odd things in it such as using an electric toothbrush at my seat and the fact the article says the tracks were laid down centuries ago when steam engines didn't exist in 1835 AND the first train in the United States operated in Honesdale, PA after that.
For those of you who missed the earlier post, the Acela Express Train set is operating on Wednesday the 22nd and Thursday the 23rd. One round trip each day. Leaves DC sometime in the 7 AM hour, arrives New York at 10:34. Return trip leaves New York at 12:30 and reaches DC at 3:14.
well, not quite, first steam powered mainline passenger train 1832 BALTIMORE & OHIO. Actually I think she was fairly on the mark--remember she is writing for the average public--not railfans. toothbrush at your seat--no worse than putting on makeup or combing your hair.
At your seat? An electric toothbrush makes noise and sends stuff flying! Makeup and hair brushing doesn't.
I just saw a GE pic of a new Amtrak P42-9 in ACELA paint. I must admit that the paint job is nice. Its not as bleak as the AEM-7 scheeme and it features a big new Amtrak logo and lagre ACELA font numbers. The roof and upper front is also painted a two tone dark blue. There is an Amtrak logo (+ the word Amtrak) in the front as well as a logo and "Amtrak" next to each cab door.
However the new P42-9's are even uglier than the "old" P42's. They basically look like a shoe-box on wheels and are nearly a perfect rectangle. The front slants much more steeply and the dark blue paint takes away any sence of depth and it might as well be verticle. Furthermore the ditchlights have been moved up almost in line with the main headlamps and have been installed in little round cut-outs in the carbody.
I'll try to find the pic on the GE site.
The MTBA anounced that it will spend over 2.5 billion in CAPITAL improvements over the next 5 years. Here's the breakdown:
$1.8 billion into infrastructure in general
$572 million will be spent on new subway cars
$584 million in station renovations
$240 million for track, signal and radio enhancements
They plan to get %40 Federal funding and will float bonds to pay for the rest.
The article also says something very interesting about last year the Legislature passed an MBTA reform bill requiring the agency to operate free of state subsidies effective July 1.
Is this even possible?
>The article also says something very interesting about last year the >Legislature passed an MBTA reform bill requiring the agency to >operate free of state subsidies effective July 1.
>
>Is this even possible?
What they're talking about is "Forward Funding." Up until now, the T operated on an approximate budget. At the end of the year, they would present a bill for the overruns. The state had to pay.
With the change this year, the T gets a fixed amount, just like other state agencies. It's the main reason for the fare increase.
It's good in that it keeps the T more fiscally responsible. It's bad in that it doesn't allow the T to respond to popular or political increases or new services in a timely fashion.
The great thing about this program is that much of the money is going to the central system (read subway!!) as opposed to the commuter rail growth that has taken place over the last ten years. See the official release at www.MBTA.com
Years ago, expanding to the 'burbs seemed like a good way to increase contributions from areas that would get direct service. I think it kind of backfired, as these districts ended up resenting the amounts they had to pay for service. This lead to the change in funding the T.
Dick
Is it possible that surprise trips could be made on Acela Regional with the express trainset? This would make sense since this trip is faster than Northeast Direct to begin with, thanks to electrification and fewer stops. -Nick
Amtrak has already announced that it will use ACELA Express trainsets on selected ACELA Regional runs between WAS-NYC-BOS between November 17 and December 11 on an "as available" basis. There will be prior public notice; it will just happen. So we'll have to be pretty lucky to get a siting or a ride.
Thanks, Todd...for the info. Hopefully I'll be the lucky one on the 5:59 PM train from New Haven to Boston on 11/27! -Nick
Getting in a few runs to let folks ride the train seems like a good marketing ploy, and final shakedown before the people who are paying extra to ride board the train.
1. The concrete work in and around Wilson Avenue is done but some places the third rail is still uncovered.
2. At Bway Jct, the island platform is in use for both directions.
3. At Montrose Avenue, the front end of the Canarsie platform, they are in the process of retiling.
4. Trains will be skipping the Livonia Avenue station(Manhattan bound). This is suppposedly until 11/23.
5. There is now an MVM machine at Livonia Ave.
6. When entering Bway Jct on a Canarsie bound train, there seems to be work going on the grade.
Train#1909Mike
3. At Montrose Avenue, the front end of the Canarsie platform, they are in the process of retiling.
HMMM...Whatever they put up, it better match the original! Perhaps the sample in the exit to the SW corner of Montrose & Bushwick is what they're doing.
WHILE THEY'RE AT IT: They have a couple tablets at Montrose with some holes in them. They can get the porcelain tile itself at the artifacts store (124 W.24th Street, NYC) all they have to do is cut it into chunks and place it. There's one on each platform. They'll need blue, black, maroon and green for the background and some white (a broken toilet tank cover will do the trick) for the letters.
I think they're going to do some retiling at the head end of De Kalb as well. They have done a test pattern in the mezzanine and near one of the exits; looks better than the original.
wayne
Hey, Mike. I see you've been riding the L more often these days.
Getting tired of the 3 train??
BMTman
Mike,
Any ideas as to why Livonia Ave is getting bypassed?
-Stef
They are reconstructing a very rickety stairway, which dates back as far as 1906.
wayne
Did you know the 1/9 line once hosted
a highly attractive blonde devouring
a bag of Pepperidge Farm Milanos
....all the way till 168th??
Witness and Amused.
For the past few weekends & nights the've split the L, with one half terminating on the J platform (using the 'K' train's connection). Unfortunately I only found out last weekend, which was the last time they did it on a weekend (and I'm not riding the L at night).
So the Flyover IS safe for revenue service! I thought so. I hope they continue this GO a few more weekends so I can ride it; that's one of the few places where I haven't ridden. I will bring my camera so I can get a shot or two from the front window of a Slant heading n/b into Eastern Parkway - that is one wickedly sharp curve there.
wayne
Wayne, maybe I'll run into you at the railfan window!
BMTman
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I managed to shut up Bill from Maspeth after he decided that I was a disgrace to the BMT. I mentioned to him in the message about some of the innovations they made in subway car design etc. which meant that I had a good deal of respect for the BMT. Moreover he and nobody else responded to the message. If the BMT remained in business to this day I think that we would have had a 2nd Ave. subway, articulated subway cars and a whole host of other innovations. I think that the BMT was the best subway company on Earth in its day.
BMTJeff
I totally agree with that BMT Jeff. But there are IRT and IND fans on this line, and some of them are as fervent about their trains as we are about ours. Take STEVE8AVEXP, for instance. He loves the A train, revels in it, but he appreciates my rabidness for the Sea Beach. In fact, he gave me my handle. What all of us have to do is respect the other guy's love for his train. The only exception to that rule is when some friendly rivalry springs up between the Brighton Beach boys, BMT Doug, Q, and my buddy Brighton Beach Bob. Then anything goes-----and usually does. Take care. We know how great the BMT was. That's all that matters.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I'm sure you might know about the proposed "W" train. It is supposed to run on the south side of the Manhattan Bridge and run up the BMT Broadway line then finish in Astoria. It is supposed to be express on the Astoria line and it might be express on the BMT Broadway line. If it does run it won't be until sometime next year.
BMTJeff
[I'm sure you might know about the proposed "W" train. It is supposed to run on the south side of the Manhattan Bridge and run up the BMT Broadway line then finish in Astoria. It is supposed to be express on the Astoria line and it might be express on the BMT Broadway line. If it does run it won't be until sometime next year.]
Soon our all too quiet, and sleepy BMT Broadway subway will be alive with activity almost like their heyday.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill Newkirk:
I wonder if they should run the BMT "Standards" and "Triplexs" just for the occasion.
BMTJeff
Hey - why not?
Steve B-8AVEXP:
I guess that you agree with me that they should run the BMT "Standards" and the BMT "Triplexs" for the occasion.
BMTJeff
You got it. They could run 2390-91-92 as well as at least two of the three Triplexes, unless they could get 6095 running again. Sign up the BMT standards as a Brighton local and the Triplexes as a 1 or 4.
Steve B-8AVEXP:
Great idea, It would be great to see the old cars running once again just for the occasion.
BMTJeff
Steve and Jeff: I'm just nutty enough to take a special trip to New York for just such an occasion. What a thrill it would be to ride a #4 Sea Beach 6095 to Coney Island again. I would be transported back to my youth in a matter of hours. And you Brighton Beach fans, don't get bent out of shape. The only reason I wouldn't want to ride a #1 Triplex is because when I rode the Brighton it was always to Ebbets Field and that place doesn't exist anymore. That whole neighborhood now diminishes me as a person when I see what's happened to the neighborhood. At least Coney Island still exists, though also in diminished form.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I don't know if they'll actually run the BMT "triplexs" just because they'll be opening up the south tracks of the Manhattan Bridge and perhaps running the "W" train as express on the BMT Broadway line but, if they do I'll let you know if possible.
BMTJeff
The Manhattan Bridge would cringe if it knew a Triplex train were to cross it.:-) I can hear it now: "Oh, my aching deck!"
Steve B-8AVEXP:
I can imagine because those BMT "Triplexs" were very heavy. Maybe the bridge can withstand it better since it has been repiared to quite some exent.
BMTJeff
Fred, please don't waste your airfare. We don't want any west coast aromas brought over to mess up our much cleaner air.
And if you plan on riding the Sea Beach, don't forget to bring a shovel!
BMTman
Nice to hear from you Mayor Doug. I would bring the fresh citrus aroma of California if I did. And besides you're in the minority as there are a number of railfanners who would like me to show up to add some extra class to the proceedings. As for a shovel I needed one to get through all that bs you just wrote to me. Chao!
[I'm sure glad I don't live in Arcadia. If my kids had a teacher with such bigoted ideas as Fred, I'd sue the school district. And the Sea Beach is an ugly subway line.]
Well, Frederick, dear chap, I thought I'd share with you my favorite post from SubTalk of this week (so far). Enjoy.
I thought it was the most heart-felt and accurate message I've seen in awhile (thanks to Sarge).
[And besides you're in the minority as there are a number of railfanners who would like me to show up to add some extra class to the proceedings.]
Actually don't you mean 'add some extra class' but minus the c and the l?
BMTman
Fred, need I remind you: Go get your shine box
The mumblings of a moron. I really thought you were finally beyond that Doug. I don't think I'd get a warm reception from you if I did go to New York soon, but, then again, I have made some nice friends on this site, and you should clear up what you mean by the shine box, that is, if you know what the hell you're talking about. As for Arcadia, if you haven't been here, don 't make such assinine comments. If you have and have the opinion you have, then the first four words of this piece do apply to you. As far as me being a bigot, you're so full of poop t hat I would rent you to fertilize my lawn next spring. If being against Democrats, and having a strong opinion on subjects that concern me make me a bigot, then in your convuluted thinking I am. But most don't think like you, and my students, now a minority majority, don't think so either.
The mumblings of a moron. I really thought you were finally beyond that Doug. I don't think I'd get a warm reception from you if I did go to New York soon, but, then again, I have made some nice friends on this site, and you should clear up what you mean by the shine box, that is, if you know what the hell you're talking about. As for Arcadia, if you haven't been here, don 't make such assinine comments. If you have and have the opinion you have, then the first four words of this piece do apply to you. As far as me being a bigot, you're so full of poop t hat I would rent you to fertilize my lawn next spring. If being against Democrats, and having a strong opinion on subjects that concern me make me a bigot, then in your convuluted thinking I am. But most don't think like you, and my students, now a minority majority, don't think so either.
Well, Fred, since your stock-in-trade appears to be name calling, I'll have to bring myself down to your level. Let me say straight out that you are a horse's ass.
If you had any brain cells at all you would have realized that the references to 'Arcadia', and you being a teacher with 'bigotted ideas' were written in a posting by Jeffrey Rosen (the Sarge on Tuesday). NOT ME!
Apparently, you cannot differenciate between someone who writes a post and someone who lifts text and places it within another post (which is what I did). That's sad for someone who's suppose to be a teacher.
Apparently, you see only what you want to see.
Have a good life.
BMTman
PS. Yes I know what 'Go Get Your Shine Box" means. It is a line from the movie "Goodfellas". Check it out. You might learn something.
Goodfellas, heh dork? Well I never saw the movie, and never watch flicks that stereotype Italian-Americans as a bunch of goons. That's bigotry. As far as the Sarge is concerned, I couldn't locate what he said, so I missed it. But you have been sarcastic towards me for a long time, with a cold peace interval in between. I'm sorry it has come to that, but perhaps we should refrain from answering each other until our tempers cool a bit. You are angry at me, and I am at you. I would be willing to offer you the peace pipe to end this crap, but I am not sure you would accept. We're both great enthusiasts for the New York Subway, but over the past few months a lot of extraneous crap has come between us. Perhaps in time we can bury the hatchet and get with things that unite us instead of creating animosity. I'm willing to try, but the ball is now in your court.
[I wonder if they should run the BMT "Standards" and "Triplexs" just for the occasion]
The B-Types are currently under going restoration at Coney Island, They are slowly being restored by volunteers and we don't know how soon they will turn a wheel.
The D-Types are pretty much available, but I'm not sure whether the TA would want to run them for this occasion.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill: Here is my problem, and I have to admit I'm a minority in this case. I hated the standards. I always thought the B types were ugly and there was no way to identify them bu number. They looked stark and inimpressive. And they were used a lot on the 4th Avenue Local, a line I detested. The Triplexes, on the other hand, looked majestic and dynamic to me, and they were used on the Brighton Express Line and, of course, on my line. In fact, I cannot recall ever seeing a B Standard on the Sea Beach line---thank God for that.
[I cannot recall ever seeing a B Standard on the Sea Beach line---thank God for that.]
OH I saw BMT Standards on your beloved Sea Beach line. Back in 1964 when riding the Sea Beach, I saw for the first time, brand new R-32's being tested on the Sea Beach test track. I got off and watched them test these brilliantly bright subway cars with blue doors for several hours.
What was running as long as I was there ? BMT Standards, and not one D-Type. Can anyone out there bring up an instance when BMT Standards were used on the #4 Sea Beach excluding an occasional put in ?
Bill "Newkirk"
BMT Standards are beautiful !
Bill, you have to understand that Sea Beach Fred is jealous because he lived on a second-rate rapid transit line and couldn't enjoy the pleasures of embankment running on a four-track straight-away.
It's sad, really.
BMTman
I didn't care for the BMT standards, either, and for the very same reasons. No signs up front, and they were just plain ugly. On top of that, they only had three sets of doors per side. I had gotten used to seeing four sets on the R units by the time I first saw the standards. I appreciate them now for what they were: dependable, durable, and downright indestructible. What can you say about a subway car which could take out a row of I-beams and come away with a few dents and a broken light bulb? Or go through a station sideways, take out everything in its path, and walk away with scrapes and bruises?
Remember, the BMT standards inaugurated service on the Sea Beach when that line opened in 1915. The Triplexes didn't arrive until a decade later. By 1964, most of the Triplexes were still on the Brighton, while some were on the West End. The R-32s marked the beginning of the premature end for those gentle behemoths.
You have to give the Standards their due.
They were also mechanically innovative for their time. What with the pushbutton door controls (on the inside of the car) and other features that were later incorporated into the R-types.
BMTman
BMTman:
You're right about the BMT "Standards" door controls. The R series cars that were first used on the IND the door controls were on the OUTSIDE of the cars. The first R series cars equipped with interior door controls were the R-15s that were first used on the IRT Corona Flushing line beginning in 1950. The first "B" division R-series cars that had interior door controls were the R-16s which first entered service in 1954.
BMTJeff
Not to mention powered storm doors on the BMT standards. Coupling and uncoupling were greatly simplified as well.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I managed to shut up Bill from Maspeth after he decided that I was a disgrace to the BMT. I mentioned to him in the message about some of the innovations they made in subway car design etc. which meant that I had a good deal of respect for the BMT. Moreover he and nobody else responded to the message. If the BMT remained in business to this day I think that we would have had a 2nd Ave. subway, articulated subway cars and a whole host of other innovations. I think that the BMT was the best subway company on earth in its day.
BMTJeff
This past Saturday my wife and I took the scenic route across the Commodore Barry bridge and down route 13 through Wilmington. While there, we spotted the remains of a PATH car - minus trucks, doors, and almost anything else removable - near the Wilmington station. (Nearby on the same property were three Amfleet coaches and a Heritage car of some sort, all in significantly deteriorated condition.) I did get a photo of the PATH car (although not of the other equipment) and will post it whenever I finish that roll of film.
Does anybody know anything more about this car?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On Sunday morning I spotted a private car in the Amtrak yard in Washington, D.C. The view wasn't good enough to attempt a photograph, but it was an older passenger car painted in tuscan red with PULLMAN on the letterboard, the inscription VIRGINIA RAIL INVESTMENT in small letters at the left end of the letterboard, the name KITCHI GAMMI CLUB on the side, and the number VRIC 7 displayed on the side as well. Does anyone know anything about this car?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My friend Mary Beth sent me this Sunday morning tale of woe.
On Sunday morning, "necessary repair and trackwork" forced me to take the following, two-hour journey back from Bay Ridge:
1. At 86th I got on the R "shuttle," running between 95th and 59th.
2. At 59th I caught an "N" doomed to run on the 6th Avenue route into and through Manhattan.
3. N arrived at 34th. Announcements said, "go upstairs at 34th Street to change for Astoria-bound N," but the train conductor said that "the next stop is 42nd Street. Change for the #7 train." So I stayed on the 6th Avenue N and got off at 42nd Street to discover that there was no #7 service between Queens and Manhattan.
4. Took the F train from 42 Street to Lexington Avenue/51st, took the escalator upstairs to switch for the uptown #6, which, of course, I just missed. Almost burst into tears of frustration.
5. Took the next #6 to 59th/Lexington; went downstairs to change for Astoria-bound N.
6. Took N one stop to Queensboro Plaza.
7. Took #7 train two stops to 40th Street Lowery.
Sounds like a complete trackwork meltdown: interruptions to BOTH N and 7 service!
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'd like to tape THAT!
Methinks at point #3 as you mentioned...if you DID follow the conductor's announcement about going upstairs for the Astoria bound "N", your trip would have been a lot smoother!!!
Once on the F, you should have ridden that to Roosevelt Ave and then transferred to the 7, to come at 40 St from the back.
Next Sunday she should stop at Hertz or Avis. With the BQE empty on Sunday mornings she would've made the trip in about 15 minutes!!!
Sorry to hear that. This is a plug for the automotive industry.
86 St to the Belt Parkway, less than 5 minutes. Belt Parkway West to the northbound Brooklyn Queens Expressway exiting at Queens Blvd about 30 minutes. add about 5 more minutes to get to Queens Blvd and 40th. The point here is take Jeffery's advise.
A public sevice message from the MTA Must Take Automobile.
You forgot about the 1 hour weekend delays at the Prospect Merge!
[A public sevice message from the MTA Must Take Automobile]
I thought MTA stands for More Trouble Ahead !
Bill "Newkirk"
Conductor speaks on attack,
CONDUCTORS STORY
Peace,
ANDEE
11/14/2000
The attacker is a 64 year old PHILOSOPHY professor at Suffolk Community College !
Bill "Newkirk"
Interesting to note he was ROR.
I go to that school part time for business since I want to leave the TA. I'm going to try to find out if anybody in my accounting class knows this guy.
Why is everyone so amazed that a professor could do such a thing? Yeah, we'd EXPECT a homeless person to stab a conductor. Having a white-collar job does not necessarily make one a model citizen.
I work in an administrative office for the Board of Education. We handle a lot of forms and correspondence from teachers and principals. A lot of them are completely incapable of following instructions or deadlines, two things they drill into their students' heads every day. Some can't differentiate the words 'to', 'too' and 'two' when writing; likewise 'your' and 'you're'.
Go to the outside of any hospital entrance: there's loads of doctors puffing away, still in their scrubs. Think they'd know better, eh?
Of course we know politicians are paragons of virtue and citizenship.
Does anyone on this board know Rick Canarick, the conductor? Does he remember giving this guy directions?
- Lyle Goldman
I am mighty pissed off over how the Brooklyn District Attorney has handled this and that the judge let this guy go free in his own recognizance. True, maybe I'm being harsh because I am a transit worker and looking at it from that angle. As far as I'm concerned, this professor should have been booked for attempted murder and had bail set. Anybody who uses an ice pick to attack anyone can kill that person. Would the DA & judge handled it like this if this guy attacked a cop or a fireman or a EMS technician or a teacher? I doubt it. But I suppose it's ok to attack a transit worker. An unarmed transit worker. If Larry Reuter is truly concerned about the safety of his people, he should have left his office and marched right over to Hines' office. Did he? Isn't Larry's #1 priority safety? Or he only counts accidents which is the fault of the worker?.....What does TWU President James have to say? Is he taking a leadership role of protest?......Should Transit Workers go to this guys house and march to bring media attention to this travisty? This professor did the subway equivalent of road rage which could have cost this conductor, a man with a family, his life. Stabbing somebody with an ice pick is not assault, it could be much more serious. Hines is sending a message to the public that it is ok to attack transit workers.
I totally agree. There should be more outrage about this. I was shocked when I read that the guy was let go on his own recognizance. Just incredible!
Peace,
ANDEE
It seems to me that the Kings County District Attorney's office is extremely corrupt and biased.
There have been reports of that same office bringing in fake witnesses, including one shady person, and paying them for testimony against a person who they otherwise think is innocent.
Yes, there are some underhanded things going on at the Brooklyn DA's office.
For whatever reason, the DA over there is "micro-managing" the place to the point that trivial cases end up becoming HUGE and complex cases and the important cases get treated like trivial matters. A friend of mine used to be an investigator over there, but gave it up (in the last six months) to be a school teacher because she saw that the place was BIG on political patronage and that many of the ADA's were only concerned with climbing the social ladder instead of handing out justice.
BMTman
One more thing. The Daily News gets an interview with this conductor, and the story is buried on page 30. Yes, this whole next president issue took up the whole front of the paper, but in addition my asking the question about how this whole thing would be handled if the victim were a cop, fireman, EMT or teacher, the Daily News for sure would have put the story in a more prominent part of the paper if the victim were one of these people.
Make yourselves heard, so that this does not happen to you. I understand that there is a conductor on the "A" who runs a karate school in Ozone Park, and has used his skills to deal with criminals while on his train. Think about that, no matter what you do for a living, because the next time may be yours.
>>> I am mighty pissed off over how the Brooklyn District Attorney has handled this and that the judge let this guy go free in his own recognizance. <<<
From your post, you seem to think that an OR release somehow reduces the charge. Bail is not supposed to be a punishment, just a method of assuring attendance at trial.
Since I do not know the details personally, I will have to speculate that in this case there is a 64 year old defendant, who probably has been at his professional job for a long time and has no prior history of crime of any kind. Although he may face serious charges, there was no lasting harm done to the victim, (in spite of his reported statement: "It's very traumatizing, I couldn't sleep. I kept seeing it [the attack] over and over again" probably supplied for him by his lawyer in anticipation of a civil suit).
As a first time offender the defendant will probably plea bargain to a fine and probation with a requirement that he attend anger management classes. Everyone in the criminal justice system from the DA to the judge knows this is the probable outcome. (And it would be the result in a case of road rage with minor injuries also.) With that probable outcome, and the age and employment record of the defendant, there is no reason to believe that this defendant is a flight risk, and therefor an OR release is appropriate.
>>> Would the DA & judge handled it like this if this guy attacked a cop or a fireman or a EMS technician or a teacher? <<<
Probably yes, if it was one uncharacteristic attack after a lifetime of clean living resulting in a minor injury.
Tom
Assualt with a DEADLY WEAPON is a sreious matter. Bail is set with an eye to the seriousness of the offense. Society must be protected $25,000/2,500 minimum for 1st offense ADW resulting in ANY injury.
As a first time offender the defendant will probably plea bargain to a fine and probation with a requirement that he attend anger management classes. Everyone in the criminal justice system from the DA to the judge knows this is the probable outcome. (And it would be the result in a case of road rage with minor injuries also.) With that probable outcome, and the age and employment record of the defendant, there is no reason to believe that this defendant is a flight risk, and therefor an OR release is appropriate.
Wrong. You seem to have forgotten that he was carrying an ice pick, which probably qualifies as a deadly weapon or at least a dangerous instrument, mere possession of which may be a felony. As far as employment is concerned, as noted elsewhere he's been relieved of his duties and probably will end up getting "re-engineered." And I don't see that age is or should be a significant factor.
I am mighty pissed off over how the Brooklyn District Attorney has handled this and that the judge let this guy go free in his own recognizance. True, maybe I'm being harsh because I am a transit worker and looking at it from that angle. As far as I'm concerned, this professor should have been booked for attempted murder and had bail set. Anybody who uses an ice pick to attack anyone can kill that person.
There's something else too. What was this man doing with an ice pick in the first place? You aren't going to find too many ice blocks on the subway. Saying that he carried it for self-defense in case of attack makes a bit more sense, but surely he must have realized that it wouldn't have done him much good if he didn't have the element of surprise on his side (being that he was 64, almost any attacker could have disarmed him easily). No, I'd say that the nut was looking to attack someone.
Also, he's a big liberal. That's two strikes against him. This is another example of how liberals only care for those who commit crimes.
Since the current plan is to have the F run through 63rd St all times, and the V to run through 53rd St. rush hours only, and they are bent on even during evenings and weekends cutting the G to Court Sq. instead of Queens Plaza, and both B and C will run uptown:
Let a new line (K or M) run from Queens Plaza to Metropolitan (turning on D5 layup track, of course.)
This would give Ridgewood, Bushwick and eastern Williamsburg the direct midtown service (and the Myrtle line service, period) and easier connection to Queens Blvd, I've been clamoring for, and then the only people left out would be Greenpoint, but they do have the B61 which does make the connection at Queens Plaza.
As for conflicting with the E, remember, the G did terminate there evenings and weekends for years.
And since the new line is supplementary (and they weren't going to run the additional 53rd St. service off hours anyway), it could make it with the 8 car trains. (When Fresh Pond gets its R-143's, they would see service on 6th Av.
So how about:
4600 on the
Queens Plaza
|
Metropolitan Av
Special
You can't terminate anything at Queens Plaza any more, there are no relay track to turn trains anymore. G won't go down to 71st because there are too many Trains per hour once the 63rs St. connector opens.
No, D5 is being restored to its original configuration after all the work is complete. (It may not be ready now, but when the change goes into effect next year, all 600 feet of space and the switches will be there.
R-143
????coming eventually to the
M
|
METROPOLITAN AVENUE
|
i think the new kabomwabarsadikier cars should all be retrofitted with slant ends on the front and rear cars of each 5 car set and have triplex like passageways between cars in each set, when they are rebuilt... i am not sure it will serve any useful purpose, but it might make the cars more interesting...
But it might make the cars more interesting...
Unstatement. A lot more interesting !!
can you actually say, "kabomwabarsadikier" with a straight face?
I see what heypaul did. Very clever.
So, heypaul, I see you have returned to the fold.
and with a vengence!!
As I slip out of the shadows, I see heypaul advocates what I wished for the R/40 and the R/40M. Simple put, WIFE SWAPPING!
Breaking up married pairs of each type and hookin' up with the others types spouse.
//======||======||======||======\\
with an occasional stepchild R/42 spliced in between. There would be no noteworthy gain from all this swapping except for photo opertunities on the Rar Rockaway Via Duct.
rabid avid
i am happy to announce that avid reader has unwittingly given away his true identity...
he signed one of his recent communiquees as rabid avid... i believe this was an unconscious typographical error, but was close to his true identity of rabbi david, who is a descendent of one of the lost tribes who somehow managed to end up in central america...
I've asked you a million times 1) Don't exaggerate.
2) Do not reveal the rabids lair
Welcome to Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice, subway version.:-)
that would be the ugliest sight since the AMC pacer.
I would like to know if the MBTA will do anything for it's commuter rail for the next 5 years like buying new coaches, line extensions or restorations, adding a second track & building any new stations.
If anyone has this information,please post it.
The MBTA has additional coaches on order -- more Kawasaki bi-levels (a few dozen, I believe). These are destined to help serve
increased service on the Worcester branch, as new stations will be opening (Grafton, Ashland) next year.
New branches are in planning for Greenbush and New Bedford/Fall River.
More information on the five-year plan is available at:
http://www.ctps.org/bostonmpo/resources/form.htm
Just to confirm - Worcester is pronounced "Wooster", right?
Yep,
And if they ever build the tunnel to connect North and South Stations, the Wooster trains may go right thru to Gloss-ter by way of Rah-vee-ah.
So now that The Big Dig is well underway, and presumably the walls for the connector between North and South stations have been sunk under the lowest level of freeway tunnel ... is there any movement to fund building the connector itself?
Updates from anyone in Boston?
You may presume too much. I've seen no evidence of any tunnel walls being constructed for the rail connection. I believe they are leaving an underground ROW free of utilities.
At Aquarium on the Blue Line, it's: surface traffic, Big Dig tunnel, the new (mostly unbuilt) Blue Line Aquarium Station, some tunnelling for utilities and Blue signals and power, then dirt which some day may become a rail tunnel.
As far as a time schedule, the Sec't of Transportation stated 20 years before funding would be available. It's not a priority in Boston or the State House. It really won't benefit Boston or much of eastern Mass. It would probably benefit Maine's new Amtrak service the most. And we don't really know how successful that will be.
Well, the commuter tunnel in Philly was rather a boondoggle...but it really does make travelling downtown by train more convenient. Being able to get to several stations, spread thru the downtown, with a one seat ride is nice.
Mass. has gotten so much federal $$$ lately (for Big Dig), and has such a democratic delegation in a republican congress, that they may have trouble getting more $$$ out of Uncle Sam for transportation infrastructure. And frankly, that seems somewhat fair, at least compared to other northeastern states.
> It would probably benefit Maine's new Amtrak service the most.
> And we don't really know how successful that will be.
If the North-South connector is ever built, then Maine's new Amtrak service will very likely be successful.
By the way, is there currently any kind of rail service between Boston and Maine? I don't see any such service mentioned on the Amtrak website.
- Lyle Goldman
It is tentatively scheduled to start in January, 2001 with limited service, then full service in April, 2001. Tracks are currently being
upgraded in NH and ME. One of the hold-ups is that 2 of 10 tracks at North Station are contiunally out-of-service due to Big
Dig construction, and all 10 won't be back until next spring.
What trains use the tracks now, and in what way are they being updated? Also, are they electrified?
- Lyle Goldman
My understanding is that when the deal was done to leave a ROW, that the vertical walls to form the tunnel sides would be sunk in place under the lowest level of freeway -- which would effectively form the tunnel roof -- but that the dirt between them was not excavated, nor would there be any tunnel floor.
So (again if I understood correctly) in 20 years, the dirt has to be removed, the tunnel floor cast, and all utilities & other infrastructure added, plus connectors to the stations themselves -- I believe this routing is JUST underneath the freeway itself, and so doesn't connect directly to/from either station.
Correct me if I'm wrong ... the story I wrote about this (for Metropolis magazine) was in about 1992, so memory is foggy.
You may presume too much. I've seen no evidence of any tunnel walls being constructed for the rail connection. I believe they are leaving an underground ROW free of utilities.
To be consistant with Roman word roots you should pronounce it War-Chester. Just like Man-Chester, Glou-Chester, Chi-Chester, Chester and West Chester.
Or, you could pronounce it like the locals do....Gritty old Mill Town. There is a Website on how the many ways to pronounce towns in Massachusetts right here: http://www.worcestermass.com/pronounce.shtml
Gee! Malden is not on the list.
Is that a name no one screws up?
...adding a second track...
Are you saying that Boston's commuter lines are only one track? If so, I had no clue! When I think about it, I guess it really wouldn't be nessasary for two tracks, if all the cars are stored at the downtown terminals during the day and stored in the outer terminals at night.
>...adding a second track...
>
>Are you saying that Boston's commuter lines are only one track?
There are a couple of one track sections on a few of the lines. The single track on the Old Colony is the one that causes the most concern. When Greenbush opens, it will put the line at capacity. No additional trains can be added, only more double deck coaches. It's the reason that proposed service to Fall River/ New Bedford must go down the NEC, rather than through Middleboro/ Brockton.
There is no place to put the second track along here as it travels along the South Shore part of the Red Line. Some rail proponents actually suggested replacing the subway line with commuter rail, not knowing that the capacity couldn't possibly match the subway.
Dick
Good points, Dick. I'll add that it's mostly the outer portions of a few lines that are one-track. Somewhere I've seen track maps of the MBTA Commuter Rail, but I can't locate them right now. (Gerry O'Regan -- you out there???)
It's not like the capacity problems are eased in any way by the remarkably slow diesels that the MBTA uses. Last one I was on seemed worse than the old LIRR fleet.
Hey, maybe a boom in commuter ridership, and nowhere to wedge extra tracks will convince Boston to electrify a few lines. The faster speeds will really get ridership going...
The MTBA uses F40's. What's wrong w/ F40's? They are good enough for Amtrak and NJT. They made up the backbone of passenger travel for 30 years in this country. You can't compare an F-40, which was designed to be passenger, to the LIAR GP-38-2 and MP-15AC freight engines.
Electics wouldn't help. The current fleet is running at track speed and has no station stops on the single rail between Braintree and Boston.
As for ridership, occasionally there is a parking space available at Newburyport..... everywhere else the local towns are making a killing on illegally parked commuters who didn't arrive early enough for a spot!
I read an article in the paper about a guy from Braintree who claimed he only got a seat on his daily rush hour train once or twice a year!
Dick
And I guess it would make too much sense for this guy to simply walk another few feet and take the Red Line, where he would have his pick of plenty of empty seats.
But then, this is Boston we're talking about. :-)
-- David
in Chicago!
Here's something that'll interest alot of the gang here:
http://204.156.4.220/2001v1/premiere_DE_items.asp?id=20-2283-1
Although the site only shows a computer-graphics image of what the models will look like -- hopefully they'll be close to what's illustrated (MTH should consider making prototype stations as well --hint, hint!)
Have fun!
BMTman
Before we start banging any drums about the August 1 delivery date, you should check the MTH delivery schedules. The R-21 redbirds that were supposed to be delivered last month, according to the MTH Website, will now be delivered in 3/01 or 4/01 for the Proto-sound versions. I'm not complaining as I'd perfer the quality that MTH is trying to achieve. Just don't get your hopes up for an early delivery for the R-32s
The R-21s will only be available in the Redbird Scheme? My only gripe is the scheme that they're coming in really isn't accurate for that particular car class. They might have been better off producing an R-17 set in that scheme.
-Stef
True, but the Redbird scheme is very colorful and represents the current paint scheme of NYCTA LAHTS equipment. MTH did not want to produce R-17's initially, as this model has been made by Q-Car in O Scale. Now that MTH has invested in the dies for the SMEE LAHTS IRT carbodies and has taken the trouble to get the details right (see my other response) I'm sure that you will see future offerings of similiar cars including R-26/28's, 29s, 33's 36 etc. in Railking as well as Premier offerings (the -21's are scale length cars despite being Railking).
It would be great to see R-36WF in the original Blue/White scheme
Thanks for the info. A Redbird R-21 is better than no O Scale model at all! Still, if it were up to me, I'd wrap an R-21 in the expreimental greenbird scheme of the 80s, or take it all the way back to drab olive green paint scheme of the 50s.
Long Live the SMEE Car!!!
-Stef
Look for a yellar n black worktrain or Money train.
Its just a matter of color and covered over side windows. A good kit bashing project. MOW .
avid
Hey, you have a point! It's amzing what you can do with some yellow and black.
-Stef
I light candles and petition Saint Jude , the patron of lost causes, for an MTH D-Type Triplex or a string of R/9s .
Picture in your minds eye original paint or Steel dust grunge. the sounds should bring tears to heypauls eyes.
avid
Hey wait a minute! If you're going to light candles for MTH to do the D-types and R9s, light one for my ABs too.
Just think guys; if MTH does do the ABs, D-types and R9s, there will be a glut of these models in HO.
I can only dream of these cars in O with "proto" motor and brake sounds.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Think of the variations....
New from the factory, after twenty years of service and crudy, work trains , Money trains like number 67 and 68 I think , the short body IND without cabs. Okay I'll light your AB candle , but you make your own NOVENA.
avid
Heypaul really goes for compressor sounds.
Now, if they could only come out with an S gauge R-10 in teal and white with a racing stripe. My ZW transformer would replicate the sheer brute speed they were famous for.
The -21's were delayed because MTH wanted to make sure that the subtle roof contour was correct on these (not like the catalogue illustration). Since the test shots for these carbodies sent from Korea by the builder(unpainted product of the molds for review purposes by engineering) took several iterations, they lost their "slot" with other models to be produced, and consequently, will not be ready on schedule. When you see the final product, I'm sure that you will be glad that MTH took the time to get it right!
I'm quite sure you are correct and the cars will be worth the wait.
After looking into (yet another) wedding photographer, went to the Broadway Diner in Yonkers. What passes by? A large, subway-car shaped blue tarp. Of course, I followed it, with future wife and mother-in-law in the car. All the way to 'i.park'. I was able to get to the parking lot atop the facility, and took some photos of the finished trains waiting in the yard.
7301-05
7296 and 2 cars behind it, too far apart to be coupled.
7316-20
7300-7299
7306-10
7321-25
While atop the facility, I spotted a truck with a car loaded (7291) ready to leave. So I drove back down around the yard to take a few shots. Unfortunately, I grabbed my digital going down there, and my attempt at a shot of the car passing in front of the Yonkers MNCR station came out like crap. I will be posting these sometime after this weekend.
-Hank
Talk about being in the right place at the right time! Did your future wife and mother-in-law have objections to following the cars? -Nick
Jodi didn't have too much of a problem, she was the one who realized I had my digital in the car. Her mom was otherwise occupied...
-Hank
So where are the pics? Huh? Huh? I wanna see....
I have to finish the roll, my editor needs to get them to develop them, and I get them back about a week later. I can post them then. I have to find the box I packed my scanner in...
-Hank
Okay...will you email me when they are posted? I'm not on this board regularly anymore and I don't wanna miss out...
talgo79@aol.com
[After looking into (yet another) wedding photographer, went to the Broadway Diner in Yonkers. What passes by? A large, subway-car shaped blue tarp. Of course, I followed it, with future wife and mother-in-law in the car. All the way to 'i.park'. I was able to get to the parking lot atop the facility, and took some photos of the finished trains waiting in the yard.]
Ah yes, a true railfan ! We're a dying breed.
Bill "Newkirk"
A railfan with a tolerant bride-to-be. Rest assured, if I tried this on my way to my wedding (when are the M7 being delivered to the LIRR?) it wouldn't be tolerated for long!
-Hank :)
A railfan with a tolerant bride-to-be. Rest assured, if I tried this on my way to my wedding (when are the M7 being delivered to the LIRR?) it wouldn't be tolerated for long!
If you tried this on my way to your wedding, you wouldn't have a wedding !!!
But I think your safe. I don't know if there is a start date for manufacturing them.
You live up this way? That is my favorite restaurant in the area up here and the prices are right too. If not, I might be able to give you a photographer in Flushing who did my wedding.
I don't, she does.
-Hank
Gentlepeople ....
I recently read in the October NY Division ERA Bulletin that the Norton's Point Trolley trackage connected with the Culver Line just before it curved into Stillwell Avenue. Also during that time, the lower level of the double-El at W 8th St connected into the Brighton Line. Does anyone know if there was any kind of through service operated or planned where the trolley might run into, say, Brighton Beach? Since the trolley did run with El cars, I would presume they had third rail shoes which could have made this type of service possible.
--Mark
[I recently read in the October NY Division ERA Bulletin that the Norton's Point Trolley trackage connected with the Culver Line just before it curved into Stillwell Avenue.]
Yes, and no. The original Culver line trackage -- at street grade -- connected (or lead into) the Norton's Point Line. The Culver street tracks were turned over to the South Brooklyn Railway early in the 20th Century when the BRT took control of the Culver Line and made it an El above McDonald Ave.
BMTman
I was under the impression that the Norton's Point Trolley ramp, leading into today's Stillwell Ave, has 2 tracks which went under the signal tower at the southern-most point (adjacent to the B line tracks) and connected into the lower level of the current Culver El.
So this impression is wrong, then?
--Mark
Yes, that's true. I was referring to the ORIGINS of the Norton's Point Line. Once the Stillwell terminal was built (as we know it today), the connection between Norton's Point and the SBK (McDonald) trackage was discontinued, far as I know. That's when the ramp was installed and the Norton's Point Trolley Line became essentially a shuttle service between Stillwell and what would later become known as SeaGate.
(Any SubTalker(s) who lived during that period -- or who might have some text/pictures on this topic -- it would be appreciated if they were to join in this discussion).
BMTman
Was Nortons Pt use third rail equipped cars, or am I mixing
it up with the Ocean Electric Ry in the rockaways?
The Norton's Point was strictly overhead trolley wire.
BMTman
Funny you should say that. After you and Thurston left me and Subwaybuff at Nathans we noticed the trolley poles that run up and down Surf Ave at the corner of Stillwell and Surf. We noted to the different paint on them as well.
The trolley poles on Surf Avenue were from the Surf Avenue Line, which ran at the same time as Norton's Point.
Gentlepeople ...
With the holidays coming, I hope to be able to spend some time in the Library perusing some NY Times microfilm (maybe others as time permits) and get started in earnest on the BRT/BMT History page, done similarly to the IND History page.
What are some significant dates in the life of the BRT/BMT that you would include if you were writing up such a page?
--Mark
The Brooklyn Collection at the main branch of the Brooklyn Public Library (Grand Army Plaza) has VOLUMES of the original BRT employee newsletters, etc.
Also, the complete run of the Brooklyn Daily Eagle resides with that library, so if you want to start someplace, Grand Army Plaza might be the place.
BMTman
Just for the record. The Sea Beach first ran on June 22, 1915. If you ride in the front car and look at the top of the tunnel as the train enters after the 8th Street Station, you can see 1914 on the concrete. It was finished just months before the train first ran. That was for all of us Sea Beach fans, and a few of you others.
You meant to say 8th Ave, not 8th Street :)
It is also found on the portal of the short tunnel under 62nd St and New Utrecht Avenue.
--Mark
Mark: And that's the longest of the series of short tunnels on the line. You cannot see the end of the tunnel from the other end. However, I never noticed a date on the top of the tunnel. When I get back to New York I'm going to have to look for that. Thanks for the info.
Not all of those short tunnels have dates on them. It's safe to say that they were all built at about the same time.
Look carefully when going through it - it's partially obstructed by piping and electrical conduit.
--Mark
I saw that very same inscription the first time I rode on the actual open cut portion in July of 1971. Last month, I pointed that inscription out to Wayne on our expedition as our N train passed that spot.
Mark, Some of the following may not be exactly correct, but added to what I'm sure you already have it should get you started:
1896 (Jan. 18th) BRT incorporated
1915 (June 15th) BMT(BRT) arrives at Chambers St. Manhattan
1917 John F. Hylan becomes Mayor of NYC
(He and La Guardia were NOT friends of BMT & trolleys)
1919 (Jan. 1st) BRT forced into recervership
1919 (Oct. 18th) B&QT formed for trolley opns, BMT for El & subway
(actually B&QT didn't come into existance until 1929, prior to that the BRT trolley opns had names like Bklyn City RxR, Brooklyn, Queens & Surban Trolley Co., etc.)
(also the BMT name didn't come into existance until 1923)
1924 & 1929 BBC (Brooklyn Bus Co. created twice by BMT, hay if they couldn't make as a trolley company, why not as a bus company)
1934 Hello stainless steel cars on BMT
1940 by by BMT
1943 by by little steamers on the Els
1949 by by BMT/IRT joint service at Queensboro Plaza
1954 Hello R-16 on BMT (only R type bought just for BMT div.)
1956 by by B&QT trolleys
1958 by by woodies (Gate/1300 cars) on Myrtle Ave
1960 by by B&QT trackless trolleys
1961 by by Multi-Sect. Types (Blue Birds)
1965 by by D Types
1969 by by Standards & Q Types
BTW, Have I become a subway buff yet ?
Mr t__:^)
One small detail: Chambers St. opened in 1913 and was initially served by wooden el cars coming off the Williamsburg Bridge. LIRR trains also terminated there for a time. The south side subway tracks over the Manhattan Bridge leading to Chambers St. opened along with the 4th Ave. and Sea Beach lines on June 22, 1915.
P. S. You could also add that BRT trains began operating to Essex St. over the Williamsburg Bridge in 1908, using what later became the Essex St. trolley terminal.
LIRR trains terminated at CHAMBERS STREET ??? You're kidding. From when to when?
There was a joint arrangement between the BRT and LIRR from 1898 to 1917, IIRC.
Through existing East River tunnels? What was routing once in Manhattan?
Ended when Penn Station was opened (which would be roughly 1917 IIRC)?
Using the Williamsburgh Bridge.
There was a connecting track between the LIRR Brooklyn Line on Atlantic and the Jamaica El at Chestnut Street which ended in 1917. Trains went from Chambers over the Williamsburg, down Broadway then over the Chestnut Street connection to the LIRR. They then connected to the old Rockaway Branch at Woodhaven and went to Rockaway Park. The trains were MP41's which were pretty much the size of subway cars. Details about the Chestnut St connection and joint LIRR/BRT service can be found on Pg 16 of "Change At Ozone Park" by Herbert George.
Think how convenient a LIRR connection in lower Manhattan would be today!
It's academic now, since the Bway express tracks are apparently going to be reactivated, but you COULD have built that LIRR-GCT connection and run some LIRR trains down those tracks as far as 14th Street, though that wouldn't help the wall streeters that much...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Back then they didn't have FRA.
Arti
Penn Station opened in 1910, to be exact.
Yes, one of the things that was apart of that arrangement was the running of special LIRR "excursion" trains to Coney Island on the Brighton Line (via today's Franklin Shuttle route). In return, the BRT got to run their trains on LIRR Rockaway branch trackage and use the (at that time) new Flatbush Avenue Depot at Atlantic Avenue for connecting service.
BMTman
The LIRR History website has some information about joint LIRR/BRT service here.
[LIRR trains terminated at CHAMBERS STREET ??? You're kidding. From when to when?]
LIRR trains using "MP-41" cars using Chesnut Street incline (closed 1917, removed 1940)made this possible. This was back in the days when the BRT could send some beach specials via the LIRR to the Rockaways and the LIRR could send some of their trains to Manhattan via Williamsburgh Bridge.
Remnants of this connection can still be seen today on the (J) line today.
Bill "Newkirk"
As subwaybuff posted a few days ago, there does appear to have been a structure which existed to the east of the old LIRR turnoff which really does look like the remains of an abandoned station platform. Since many on here have proclaimed that no such station existed here, i'm totally perplexed at to it's history. Something was here. The lenth of the remaining girders is EXACTLY the same length of the remaining steelwork of the old Cypress Hills terminal along Crescent St. It looks identical as well.
Anybody have a clue?
Chris,
How far is this from the west end of the Crescent St Platform?
Is this east or west of the branch south to Atlantic Ave?
Is there any chance this might have been the location of the old switch tower?
The remaining steelwork is approximatley 100 feet east of the old LIRR turnoff and about 2 blocks west of the present Crescent St. station. I also thought about a switchtower being there, but the steelwork seems way to long for this.
It really does look like the remnants of a station.
I lived for many years within three blocks of the location. When I first moved there I was too young to care but the steelwork was still in place for the LIRR connection. By the time I was old enough to be interested in transit the connection had been removed. I recall standing under the el on the south curb of Fulton St on several occasions trying to visualize the old connection from the stubs of the remaining steelwork. It was then that I decided that the ramp was not exactly on Chestnut St, but within the square block bounded by Chestnut, Fulton, Euclid and Atlantic.
There was a second crossover in a westerly direction from the eastbound track to the westbound track just a little west of the ramp crossover. This would have been very close to Richmond St
Could the steelwork for this crossover be confused with this mysterious station steelwork? I know of no station ever being located between Norwood and Crescent.
This is a definate possibility. I never knew a crossover switch existed here.
Mystery solved?
The lenth of the remaining girders is EXACTLY the same length of the
remaining steelwork of the old Cypress Hills terminal along Crescent St. It looks identical as well.
Does that steelwork still look as if the el used to go right through the cemetary?
Yup, the older (diagonal girders) along Crescent St abruptly end at the cemetary. The newer riveted 1917-ish girders stand out and the difference in construction between the older line and the newer is very noticable.
I have only ever seen one picture of the old Cypress Hills Station, but it was a fascinating one. I think it was in the Alan Kahn book. The old station house was directly over the center of Jamaica Ave. There were two stairways to it, one from the north side of Jamaica Ave, and the other from the east side of Crescent St. I could not distinguish the bumper blocks in the picture, but I think they were located at about the north curb line of Jamaica Ave. I was convinced that if the gate cars had ever gone through one of the bumper blocks, they would wind up on top of some of the graves in the cemetary.
[P. S. You could also add that BRT trains began operating to Essex St. over the Williamsburg Bridge in 1908, using what later became the Essex St. trolley terminal.]
Was that trolley of Elevated cars ? Assuming it was trolleys.
BTW, That trolley terminal is still largly intact. A group of us got into the area on a TA Museum tour.
Mr t__:^)
Wooden el trains terminated at that trolley terminal initially. I would imagine the Essex St. station in use today was built when the line was extended to Chambers St. It took five years to build that one-mile extension. Brian Cudahy only stated that construction proceeded "at a sluggish pace".
I caught a glimpse of that former trolley terminal last year from a J train. Did you see the tracks in the floor?
Re. Essex St. trolley terminal ... [I caught a glimpse of that former trolley terminal last year from a J train. Did you see the tracks in the floor?]
Yes, we all got in there to WALK on the tracks & view the O/H wire still in place. The only change were a couple of subway signal boxes put in the trackways. There is also a subway tower there that we were allowed into AND a closed station with booth & old turnstile still in place ... was a very educational trip.
Mr t__:^)
That's fascinating - everything left in place like that. They probably figured it wasn't worth the trouble to tear everything out, since none of that was in anybody's way, anyway.
[Wooden el trains terminated at that trolley terminal initially.]
The loops are rather tight & I know first hand (from Branford) what happens if you try to put a subway/El car thru too tight a loop, i.e. at Branford the R-9 can't go thru it & the others you need to go realy slow & not put the car in Emerg. or you'll break something undeneath.
So, was there a platform for the El cars along side the trolley loops or were they restricted some how, e.g. only the larger loops ? Also I saw now elevated platforms, so the El car would use the drop down stairs at Essex St. ?
Mr t__:^)
I only remember trolleys using those loops!
Perhaps el cars used them before my time.
I don't think EL cars ever used the Essex St trolley terminal.
I had heard that Essex St was built by the Parks Department as a terminal for trolleys across the Willie B. The BRT/BMT never really built it, though they may have assumed ownership of it.
Anyone know for sure?
--Mark
On a previous transit museum excursion, we were told that the Essex St. station was built by the NYC Dept. of Plants and Structures.
Carl M.
Do you remember why they built it and not the BRT?
--Mark
The literature I've seen shows a two-track, 3 platform stub terminal for the Essex St Terminal.
It's been forty years since I've seen it, but I remember it as a three track, two platform station. The trolley loops were to the south of the subway platforms.
You are referring to the present Essex St Station; I was referring to the original BRT El Terminal station.
1896 - Formation of the BRT.
1898 - Brooklyn Bridge Thru Service, entry of BRT into Manhattan.
1915 - Opening of 4th Avenue Subway (1st subway under BRT built).
1918 - Malbone Street Wreck.
1923 - Bankruptcy of the BRT, and formation of the BMT.
1940 - Takeover by the City of NY.
1967 - Chyrstie Street Connection.
1969 - Myrtle Avenue El, last vestige of a 19th Century Brooklyn El ceases operation.
1998 - Franklin Avenue Shuttle rebuilt.
-Stef
Can someone explain how a T-controller works? How to disengage and keeping the thing from reengeging. Also is charging a LIRR MU the same as a subway train?
Also is charging a LIRR MU the same as a subway train?
LIRR/MNRR has the same type cars. After putting the key in the lock and moving the reverser switch, the operator move the controller to the full service position. They must press and hold a 'charge' button until the train is fully charged.
Andy Kirk, who writes the Amtrak column for Railpace magazine, posted to Railpaces Hot News website that Acela Express train set #5 is scheduled to operate as train #958 from Washington to Boston on Friday and back on Saturday as train #959. Scheduled station times are posted.
Thank you for the info, Bob...but just one correction: When I checked Andy's site posting, it said train 958 to Boston on Thursday (not Fri, and train 959 to DC on Friday (not Saturday). I plan to be at South Station Thursday...a little before the 5:10 PM arrival time! -Nick
Thanks for the correction. My calendar must be running a day fast.
I don't remember which thread recently had several posts about pollution/cars/transit in Houston, what with the plethora of political bloviation going on here, but Railway Track and Structures reports that the Houston METRO's Board of Directors voted unanimously to move forward with a local funding plan for the $300 million 7.5 mile Downtown to Astrodome light rail line.
I don't remember which thread recently had several posts about pollution/cars/transit in Houston, what with the plethora of political bloviation going on here, but Railway Track and Structures reports that the Houston METRO's Board of Directors voted unanimously to move forward with a local funding plan for the $300 million 7.5 mile Downtown to Astrodome light rail line.
Guess the folks in Baghdad-on-the-Bayou got embarassed by the fact that theirs is the largest city in the world without any form of rail transit.
As I mentioned in the thread to which you allude, rail transit'll likely be a tough sell in Houston. It may be that starting relatively small, with a single line, is the best way to go. Who knows, it might confound the doubters and be a success.
One of tyhe problems Houston has as far as development is concerned is the stupid city is not zoned! Anyone can build anything anywhere. Combined with the fact it's as flat as a pancake means both residental and business growth sprawled out everywhere, with nothing to stop it.
Light rail along the U.S. 90/U.S. 59 and I-10 corridors probably would have a chance by now, because those areas have filled in so much over the past 25 years they're have the density to support a rail system.
The same areas are also seeing toll roads being built to deal with the vehicluar traffic overflow. People who would have to shell out cash every day to drive the highways or get the Houston version of EZ Pass might not be as opposed to taking a train into town ... except of course if Tom DeLay and his pals have anything to say about it.
(Railway Track and Structures reports that the Houston METRO's Board of Directors voted unanimously to move forward with a local funding plan for the $300 million 7.5 mile Downtown to Astrodome light rail line.)
Friends, that's $40 million per mile. Anyone want to guess the cost in New York? Heck, what did that Buffalo light rail cost (increase actual figures by 40 percent to adjust for inflation).
Larry,
Baseline subway tunnelling costs can run from $250-400 million per mile if there are few complications; the higher number or even more would be applicable if you include station construction and unforseen problems.
The Port Authority's AirTrain is coming in at $1.5 billion for a total of 8+ miles. So figure around $185 million per mile (which includes stations).
Please note that this varies with management experience. New York often gets a bad rap, but, compared to Tutor-Saliba Corp.'s disaster in Los Angeles (sheer incompetence, bad concrete, theft, and on and on) New York looks almost pristine.
Can anyone give me some information about the freight short line called the East Jersey Railroad Company? It operates only in Bayonne where the gas terminals are. I know it helps fascilitate railcar transfers to the CSX/NS Chemical Coast Line. Any more I have to know? Any photos? How can I get there to see it using HBLR and bike?
Thanks
Dan
nyrail.cjb.net
New NY&A Photos and NYCH roster
All I know is that it connects in Bayonne with the former CNJ and LV tracks. How about looking up their number on the internet yellow pages and calling them to find out?
I know that there is an RR running next to the HBLR in Bayonne, and
there is a yard just south of 22nd St, which may or may not be what
you are looking for.
I think this question was answered a couple months ago. Unfortunately, my memory isn't all that great. I think the line next to HBLR in Bayonne is a former CNJ line, presently Conrail Shared Assets.
I just got a call from my sister. She was at Grand Street and couldn't get home because someone got ran over at Broadway - Lafayette Streets Station. She told me power was turned off so she couldn't get home. Anyone know what happened?
running on...
My wife is also stuck in the mess. She walked over to the 2/3 at 14th over an hour ago. Still not home at 9:08.
No details but it was a real mess. There is about a hundred feet of sand placed between the running rails of TK 4 around the conductors board and the police forgot to remove one sneaker. Another brilliant day on the BMT.
or IND, rather
I know a Q was involved.
For the last 1+ weeks, I've been in school attending a managerial training course. The class is made up of 12 randomly selected managers representing many divisions from the Department of Subways. Years in transit range from 12 - 36 years and years as managers range from 4 weeks to 14 years. Ages from mid 30s to 60ish. The odd thing is in this group of 12 randomly selected Superintendents, five of us are graduates of Brooklyn Tech (including one of the females). I can only repeat, what are the odds of that happening?
Should not one expect a Brooklyn Tech graduate to be able to calculate such probabilities? :-)
The question was rhetorical but now that you bring it up - no - I wouldn't know where to begin. NYCT managers come from across the country and span 4 decades. How many High Schools nationwide? How many graduates? Nope - I sure am not able to calculate this one.
i really cannot give much attention to calculating the odds, as i am very busy rounding off infinity... however, i would agree that it seems very unusual, and i suspect that this is evidence of a plot launched by barnett rich over 40 years ago to take over the new york city transit system...
I haven't heard that name since 10th grade math. My text was by Dressler & Rich?
exactly... there were subliminal messages hidden in many geometry diagrams that subtly altered the course of many student's lives... did you think it was coincidental that you once repaired televisions and now repair subway cars?... i am also willing to bet you listened regularly to jean shepherd on wor...
I'm pleased to see the two of you getting along so well.
Also thanks for entertaining us ;-)
Mr t__:^)
thurston... you said: "I'm pleased to see the two of you getting along so well."
it seems i made a serious mistake when i showed you my psychiatric history... i didn't expect you to bring up my split personality here on subtalk... what's even worse is you got it wrong... there isn't two of me... as doctor howard detailed in my request for extra exemptions on my federal tax return, there are 5 of me...
Uh-oh, does this mean heypaul has multiple personalities?
[Uh-oh, does this mean heypaul has multiple personalities?]
Too bad you missed the SubTalk Anniversity/Open House at heypaul's, because then you wouldn't need to ask such silly questions.
Talk about silly ... can you picture the group of us all taking turns sitting on heypaul's bed to use his keyboard ... the funnyest part was what we ended up typing ... very uncharistic for all of us, must have been the incline of that bed ... or something. My grandson & I played hand ball outside with him while the jewish ladies, who were sunning themselves, complained about the disturbance.
Mr t__:^)
Were those ladies saying "Oi vey" or "Oi gevalt", or is it unprintable?:-)
For a moment I thought you were going to say you all tried to squeeze into heypaul's motorman's cab at the same time.:-)
It sounds as if you had to be there.
heypaul is the focalpoint of a mulitude of converging intellects.
Consider the prism. A transparent figure for the diffusion of confined pure thought pondering the square root of infinity plus or minus the fudge factor less DOT sales and road taxes.
avid
Is avid reader heypaul in disguise???
It's just a theory, but BOY do they seem to pop up around the same time at SubTalk....hmmm....
BMTman
Look for signs of HPS.:-)
EXCELSIOR!!!!!
So me n my friend Flick are walkin under the el , when he turns to me and say......heypaul? heypaul who? N I say , You Know , heypaul.
avid
Depends on what really is IN that pie.
The odds for the first slot are :Number of managers divided by number of openings available. For easch succeeding slot the odds are the same (1 less manager and 1 less opening.)
if there were 200 managers and 10 slots you'd have a 10/200 chance of the first slot or 5%. Slot 2 would be 9/199 and so on.
NYCT managers come from across the country and span 4 decades. How many High Schools nationwide? How many graduates? Nope - I sure am not able to calculate this one.
Certainly, the probability for a purely random occurance would be very small. The fact that it occurs at all suggests some deterministic bias at work. Might I suggest Oppenheimer's Law? :-)
I tried to calculate the odds, but my brain was about to explode -- and not wanting to clean up the mess -- I thought better of getting into the higher math involved.
BMTman
>>>...but my brain was about to explode <<<
ABOUT to explode? There are those who would say that happened to you years ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
hahahaha brooklyn tech... oh thats funny
oh wait, i gotta go there tomorrow
there went all my fun
alot of smart people went to brooklyn tech, including one of my bosses. alot of teachers in tech were also tech graduates
makes you wonder...why is it so stupid now?
With the quality of Tech, it's not surprising !!
We have great alumni !!
How many Superintendants in the DOS? Can't figure your odds without it.
I don't think its as unusal as it sounds. Although picks are made from across the nation, who might be most interested in the jobs AND most qualified? How about guys who for the most part rode the subway to High School, forming many fond memories on them. I was one, although my interest peaked at that time. A classmate of mine, who masterminded our record breaking run thru the system in 1967 now works for NYCT, although I don't know now in what capacity. Any way, I am rambling, and as I said, seems ok according to Maier's Law - "If the facts do not conform to the theory, they must be disposed of."
"...five of us are graduates of Brooklyn Tech (including one of the females". Who would have given odds back around 1968 that there would be females in Brooklyn Tech? Now that's progress!
First two females entered in 1971 (or so).
Another strange twist to this odd coincidence. One of the instructors was discussing how, as a group, we've bonded and work well on projects even when it was expected that the projects would cause dis-harmoney in the group. I mentioned to him that it was, perhaps, due to the fact that 5 of us had attended Brooklyn Tech. He also expressed suprise at the coincidence and then said, make that '6' Brooklyn Tech graduates. He was from the class of '68'.
i was asked: "can you actually say, "kabomwabarsadikier" with a straight face?"
my answer: "can you actually stand in a station and watch the new cars pull in with a straight face?"
So Paul, I guess you prefer to stay in the past instead of favoring modern technology? Who's to say that modern technology is a bad thing? Answer that for me, seriously.
-Stef
stef... i prefer to stay in the past... living in the present is aging me very rapidly... i am feeling especially overwhelmed lately with all the talk of new letters for subway lines... i pay no attention to any of that talk, and continue to make my way around the city with a subway map that doug gave me from the 1939 world's fair...
Nothing wrong with the past. It's nice to value what was....
-Stef
[i pay no attention to any of that talk, and continue to make my way around the city with a subway map that doug gave me from the 1939 world's fair...]
I GAVE you a 1939 World's Fair Map??? What was I thinking? One of those goes for at least $75 on ebay!!! I should have at least charged you $50.
heypaul, you must have me confused with someone else.
BMTman
>>>One of those goes for at least $75 on ebay!!! <<<
REALLY! I have 3 of them. 8->>
Peace,
ANDEE
[>>>One of those goes for at least $75 on ebay!!! <<<
REALLY! I have 3 of them. 8->>
Are you talking about the original or the reprint ?
Bill "Newkirk"
1 Reprint, 1950s? 2 original
Peace,
ANDEE
Reprint? What reprint. Bill please elaborate...
BMTman
I got one at the transit museum many years ago.
You should be very honored, he gave you a very valuable and cherished possession!
I second heypaul on this ballot.
Just said "Kabomwabarsadikier" to camcorder.
try saying it five times rapidly. (3 times. less punishment.)
They have arrived at East 180th Street Yard, and were spotted at 10 minutes after 10, this evening. SBK Engines and RD328 again as the power, but 901 was the trailing loco this time.
-Stef
There was something else that I noticed about that shuttle train. It looked like the side rollsigns said it was going to the Bronx! Why can't they put Brighton Beach on the top rollsign and Coney Island on the bottom rollsign, or at least put "Special" or "Shuttle" on one like they used to do? Don't the passengers have enough confusion?
- Lyle Goldman
Shuttle/Special would be an option but it appears that the line superintendent does not wish to hire a conductor to change the signs so they stay as they are. Also there is no Brighton Beach sign available on the north terminal sign. It goes from Bedford Pk Blvd to Broad Channel to Chambers St.
They have to hire a contractor to change the signs on one lousy train?
CONDUCTOR, they have to get a conductor to change the signs and then change them back. Don't want to pay extra to resign the train twice.
Oops, I read that wrong. So how long do the have to pay a conductor for to change the sign on one train???
What's the Deal-e-o with this?
Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
A transit worker friend of mine walked three miles of this tunnel from 21st Street in Queens to underneath Roosevelt Island. The tunnel has no trackage, but is lined with operating incandescent lighting.
BMTman
That is the tunnel planned for the LIRR connection to the east side of Manhattan. Original plans were for a new station at Third Ave. and 48th St., while the current thinking (see earlier threads) is it will be connected into a new lower level at Grand Centra Terminal.
From what I understand the 63st tunnel was built with two levels. One for the NYCT and one for the LIRR. The lower LIRR level is supposed to be the way they are going to run LIRR trains into Grand Central Terminal.
There's been a bunch of posts about it in the last week or so.
-Shawn
True and the floor is pressed light colored dirt. The only way to access the tunnel is to use one of the emergency exits. I made the same walk when I was in school car about 3 1/2 years ago. It was cool.
The signs in the emergency exits say "To LIRR downstairs".
And no, there are no unfinished stations down there.
BMTMan ...
Here's the deal-e-o ....
Construction on the 63rd Street Line began on November 25th, 1969. Tunneling proceeded in a westerly direction from Queens and in both directions under Welfare (now Roosevelt) Island. Trenches in the riverbed were dug to receive four prefabricated concrete tubes that were sunk into place and connected. Dimensions of the tubes in the west channel of the East River were 375 feet long; the east channel had tube sizes of 380 feet long. All the tubes were 38 feet in diameter.
The 63rd Street tunnel was designed to accommodate subway trains on the top level and LIRR trains from Sunnyside Yard on the lower level. LIRR trains would then turn south around 3rd Ave. and run to a proposed Metropolitan Transportation Center (MTC) in the vicinity of 48th St. and 3rd Ave. The MTC would facilitate easy intermodal transfers between the LIRR, the Second Avenue line, the IRT Lexington Ave. Line at Grand Central as well as Grand Central Terminal. On October 10th, 1972, the two tunneled sections of the 63rd St tunnel were joined as one.
More details can be found on the IND History page.
--Mark
Is that the original lighting in there (63rd street tube)? I notice they use old style (white strip) flourescent bulbs there, not the new circular ones.
Archer avenue line also features this lighting, as well as the Joralemon tubes. So the question remains, was this old style flourescent lighting put in when the tunnel was built, or was it put in later?
Here it is all this time I was thinking the 63rd street line opened in the 80s because it looked so "80s"!
It did open in the 80s! The tunnel was built in the early 70s
but the stations, tracks and signals weren't completed and
then the project, like the 2nd ave subway, was abandoned.
In the early 80s the project was revived, given the popular slogan
"the tunnel to nowhere", and the 63 St line finally opened in 1989.
Actually I read in the IND section that the 63rd street line was opened in the late 80s, so I was right about the "modern" 80s style of the tunnels that are so nice. If they were completed in the 70s, then why did it take 10 years to open?
The tunnels under the river were completed, but not the connection from the river to the IND and BMT lines to Sixth and Seventh Ave. Lexington and 63rd was a pedestrian/auto disaster -- but a great place to peer into an open tunnel from -- for about a decade while the work was being done in the late 70s and 1980s.
If they were completed in the 70s, then why did it take 10 years to open?
I recall the Daily News headline, I believe, in 1975: "Ford to City: Drop Dead". NYC ran out of money and was very close to bankruptcy. This fiscal crisis is what caused the 1968 expansion plans to be shelved. Somehow the 63rd St tunnel continued on, and was almost stopped again in the early 1980s amid allegations of corruption and shoddy workmanship.
--Mark
Didn't they film that foot chase scene in Nighthawks in the 63rd St. tunnel? It sure likes it. You can see construction going on all around.
[This fiscal crisis is what caused the 1968 expansion plans
to be shelved. Somehow the 63rd St tunnel continued on, and was almost stopped again in the early 1980s amid allegations of corruption and shoddy workmanship.]
I remember the big problem they had with leaking tunnel sections that were sunk into place. They were concerned about a blow out/in.
Mr t__:^)
Perhaps the sections weren't joined together properly.
The leaks in the LIRR tunnel under 33rd street are pretty bad. The past few times I was looking out the front window of an M-1 the water was gushing down, on the Manhattan side of the main LIRR westbound tunnel.
We were talking about the new two level tunnel that isn't open to the LIRR yet.
Mr t__:^)
yup, it will be used as the GCT connection
11/15/2000
A friend of mine who works for the TA stopped by tonight and tells me he recently donned his vest and walked the 63rd St. connector from 21st st./Queensbridge to about the junction at 36th St.
He tells me that the tunnels is all finished as far as tracks, tunnel lights and signals go. Power he says will be turned on Dec.11,2000. Hey, wasn't that the same day Archer Ave. opened?
He also tells me of one surprise. Since he walked only one tube he assumed there was another on the other side. He says there is an bellmouth or tunnel pocket for a connection for a possible future yard at Sunnyside. So that is where the yard connection is to be. Any of you SubTalkers aware of this ?
He also found an emergency exit that lead down to the LIRR tunnel. He climbed down the ladder and said the tunnel for the LIRR is all finished with tunnel lights, but no roadbed or tracks. It seems the tunnel is ripe for M-3's and M-7's (M-1's may all be gone by then) to
Grand Central. Bi-Level C-3's and dual modes can't operate here because of height restriction. Now if we can find a few billion bucks we can finish this thing or am I dreaming ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bi-Level C-3's and dual modes can't operate here because of height restriction.
Arrgh!!!!!
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooo.
Consider that when the lower level LIRR tunnel was built, bi-levels were not even on the radar scope as rolling stock. The assumption of M-1s was likely made.
--Mark
What WAS on the scope was electrification to the ends of the Oyster Bay and Port Jefferson lines.
-Hank
You'ld have thought that they would use the same dimensions as the LIRR tubes into Penn Station. They're big enough for bi-levels, etc., aren't they?
The tunnel isn't even open yet! Why can't they dig downward? (I know they can't, but why exactly? I know it has something to do with the fact that the tunnel is within a tube.)
I know it has something to do with the fact that the tunnel is within a tube.
Exactly. If you dig through the bottom of the tube you'll get rather wet, from all the river water coming in. Yes, I know, you'll be into the muck, not the water per se, but the pressure would quickly force the water through.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Because the tunnel is built on sand, the base is made of steel floor beams embedded in concrete. These would have to be underpinned.
Henry R32 wrote: "The tunnel isn't even open yet! Why can't they dig downward? (I know they can't, but why exactly? I know it has something to do with the fact that the tunnel is within a tube.)"
As far as why engineers can't dig under, the answer is that the under river tubes are cast concrete construction and in order to raise the height one would have to violate the structural integrity of these tubes which no one is prepared to do.
A whole new tube would have to be built.
And that would be very pricey indeed!
And take another 30 years to complete :)
You're not dreaming. The MTA budgeted $1.7 billion to complete the tunnel to a new lower level at Grand Central; the draft Environ. Impact Statement was circulated and public hearings already happened. It received strong support by most peole testifying, though a lot of people, myself included, insisted for the record that a new Second Av subway be built to help the Lex withstand the additional 20,000 commuters pouring into GCT.
While the bond issue failed to pass, this project was strongly advocated by Governor Pataki, so when the 2000-2004 Capital Plan is revised, this project may well survive (and the money for it was budgeted for the early years of the plan - that indicates its high priority). Completion and operation will happen after 2010.
I work one block from the old Long Island City High School. For years even before service to Queensbridge there were two standpipe connections at the corner of the school at 28th Street.
One said LIRR Level and the other NYCTA Level on each of the stand pipe connections. Just think how long this tunnel has been there already.
Late Sixties or early Seventies, which is now 30+ years ago! We're ALL getting old.
I saw the construction work on 41st Ave being done when I went to LICHS back in the mid 70's.
Jose
there is an bellmouth or tunnel pocket for a connection for a possible future yard at Sunnyside. So that is where the yard connection is to be.
Wasn't the original plan for this tunnel to go to Sunnyside and have a "super express bypass" to eastern Queens via the LIRR? That bellmouth would support this plan, even if the yard connection plan never existed.
--Mark
That is correct. The intended destination was Forest Hills.
It is still technically feasible to do.
A bypass is stupid. How does that help with crowding on Queens Boulevard? It just bypasses all the problems not helping the crowds at the station. I'm sure it'd have low ridership. Maybe 2 new express tracks on the Queens Boulevard would help. That way, nobody can say anything about capacity. The new express trains can use the 60 Street Tunnel and run express on Broadway. Uh oh, I'm dreaming again.
running on...
The "point" of the bypass would have been three-fold:
1. A new stretch of track allowing higher speeds than those allowed under Queens Blvd. Remember that a test train of R-44 cars reached 88mph on the LIRR between Woodside and Jamaica.
2. A direct ride via subway into Manhattan (rather than transferring off the LIRR)at a fare cheaper than LIRR
3. Use of LIRR ROW would have made miles of costly tunnelling unnecessary.
There would have been drawbacks to this plan, of course. And the current 63rd St connector project offers a functionality that perhaps the original project might not have offered (the flexibility of routing Queens Blvd. trains into any of three tunnels (63, 60, 53)- so if police activity, fr example, disrupts one tunnel, Queens Blvd. service can continue through the others.
It doesn't matter if it is higher speeds. It still leaves the crowds along the Queens Boulevard Line on the platform getting ready to be stuffed into a train.
running on...
It would matter if some of those in the crowd patronized a new station on the LIRR right of way instead. That's the whole idea.
No it doesn't.
People living closer to the bypass would use it, assuming it had stops.
A lot people would be using it coming in from Kew Gardens and Jamaica, in fact, nearly everybody would do that. The trains would be empty at Continental where they are now fairly full.
Though I don't know much about the QB line, it sounds as if such a bypass would have merit. It may service some of the people who may presently take a bus from somewhere in Queens farther out than Jamaica Center or 179th Street, or possibly people taking a bus to go to other closer in stations, hence diverting people from the QB line and putting them on the new line. I'd imagine that such a new line would not help much with the locals, but would help a lot with the expresses. (Speaking of that, is there any extra capacity on the local tracks there? The G and R, I'm told, are not the most frequently running subway lines in the system, so it looks like there could be more room. Or am I wrong?)
There's plenty of room for more locals. Some AM rush Rs run express on the local tracks. However, there is not enough room for another local if it is going to Manhattan, thus the reason why the G is being cut to Court Sq.
Fairly full is an understatement. If there is more than 2 minutes between trains by Continental, you can't fit.
More tracks means more capacity.
Arti
Low ridership? You've never seen a packed Manhattan-bound train pull into Union Turnpike, then.
There was a time when the 'E & F" used 11 60ft cars r/9s to handle the crush. The R train is no slouch either with the load it hauls to and from Gotham.
avid
There was a time when the 'E & F" used 11 60ft cars r/9s to handle the crush. The R train is no slouch either with the load it hauls to and from Gotham.
Actually the R is running at under its service load level. Evidently, people prefer 5 minutes less travel time than its less crowded ambiance.
The 63rd St connector travel time will be even longer. It remains to be seen, if the MTA has designed a $500 million lemon.
Travel time through the 63rd St. connector must be inherently longer because it is the only line with a stop in the middle of the East River (Roosevelt Island), meaning slower train speeds and because it enters Manhattan's business district from slightly further away.
It will be much slower, trains heading to the station have to go slow down the grade because of the stop, and fight the grade from a dead stop afterward. Its almost as bad as a bridge. Not to mention that very stupid timer at the top of the grade queens-bound.
Henry,
I know that trains travelling up a grade must not speed excessively because wheelslip will occur. Is the "stupid timer" you mentioned supposed to regulate this? Is it misplaced? Should speed control be provided in another way? Is there a drop behind it (eg a downgrade)?
Also, it seems that, from a passengers point of view, Queens Plaza would be a better terminal for the G than Court Square. Is providing the needed crossovers impractical for this?
Before the transfer at Court Sq, Queens Plaza used to be the terminal for the G (Its on the rollsigns, as well as the digital signs). The trains would switch from D2 (NB Local) to D4 (NB express) to D5 (the track between the two express tracks) at Queens Plaza and then reverse, onto D3 (SB express) then D1 (SB local). The arrangement is still intact, except that there is no longer a way for southbound trains to get to D5 from D3. Trains can still be turned there in the same manner, and that track is currently being resignalled (its last in line for resignalling for that area). They've stopped this because of the connector construction, and realized they could now increase weekend E and Fs without the G, so they did not include it the the post-63st plan.
OK. But if you are boarding the train at Steinway Street, or some other local stop, you need to transfer twice to continue to travel south along the G route.
That timer is before Lexington?? We almost have to come to a dead stop on a Queensbound Q before the timer, then roll into Lexington.
That timer and signal protects the interlocking between Broadway and 6th ave line trains Queensbound.
In some express stations you can see a covered-over 11 marker, approx. 3 feet into the tunnel. Union TPK and Roosevelt are two. The locals definitely cannot handle 11 cars, at 63Drive the 10 marker is 4 feet into the tunnel. I think Archer ave. can handle 660', not sure though.
A bypass is stupid. How does that help with crowding on Queens Boulevard? It just bypasses all the problems not helping the crowds at the station.
The idea was that passengers boarding at IND stations east of Forest Hills would use the "bypass" for an express ride into Manhattan. Passengers west of Forest Hills would have less crowded trains because they would not carry the other passengers that took the new bypass line.
When the 1968 Program for Action was implemented, it originally proposed only one track operating in the peak direction. It was later changed to two tracks. Ridership wasn't as congested as it is now. It would have provided great relief to the IND Queens Blvd Line.
--Mark
Ridership wasn't as congested as it is now. It would have provided great relief to the IND Queens Blvd Line.
The reason for the congestion is that they are running substantially fewer cars with substantially less passenger capacity.
The bypass would provide for a total of 6 tracks for the Queens Blvd line and no service for the rest of Queens.
When Moscow had a problem with an overcrowded line, they built another line about 1 mile south of it, not only relieving the congestion on the first line but also providing subway service in areas which did not have it before.
Yes it would.
It would facilitate expansion to lines further out. Not to mention that the bypass probably would have a stop or two.
Of course, they had an advantage in Moscow: no NIMBYs. Anyone who spoke out would be locked up in a psychiatric ward, if not sent to Siberia.
It is also the day Acela Express will finally start service. Two long awaited projects, starting on the same day...
A friend of mine who works for the TA stopped by tonight and tells me he recently donned his vest and walked the 63rd St. connector from 21st st./Queensbridge to about the junction at 36th St.
He tells me that the tunnels is all finished as far as tracks, tunnel lights and signals go.
What your friend tells you is true. Actually, power will be turned on track T2 (Queens bound side) on December 4 and power will be turned on track T1 (Manh bound side) on December 11. This is due to the need to place signals in service. RTO will be training train operators to run in the tunnel for three weeks hence until about January 3 before the first passenger train would be placed into service. Service may only begin at night because of general orders needed to complete switch work north and south of Queens Plaza in January, 2001.
He also tells me of one surprise. Since he walked only one tube he assumed there was another on the other side. He says there is an bellmouth or tunnel pocket for a connection for a possible future yard at Sunnyside. So that is where the yard connection is to be. Any of you SubTalkers aware of this ?
The project was built to consider such an option for the future.
He also found an emergency exit that lead down to the LIRR tunnel. He climbed down the ladder and said the tunnel for the LIRR is all finished with tunnel lights, but no roadbed or tracks. It seems the tunnel is ripe for M-3's and M-7's (M-1's may all be gone by then) to
Grand Central. Bi-Level C-3's and dual modes can't operate here because of height restriction. Now if we can find a few billion bucks we can finish this thing or am I dreaming ?
My understanding is that East Side Access is the project that they want to push after the 63rd St connector. I am told that groundbreaking might not begin until 2002. Stay tuned.
Kabomwabarsadikier sure is getting EASIER to say
the more I repeat it... kids, DO try this at home.
I was praticing, but I sprained something. Remember: Pace yourselves!
Nan dayo??? Ehh?
would be a good name for the use of an alias. people will get the name all screwed up like it sounds. a complete riot.
It would make a great password for a club.
sure has made for SPONTANEOUS laughter
during commutes these past 2 days..
Pronounce it.
At least this is some justice.
ICE PICK MANIAC COOLING HIS HEELS
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee, this guy was a real "Mad Professor", it would seem (not unlike the one in the old 'Felix the Cat' cartoons :-)
What course did he teach? Was it "How to Attack People with Sharp Instruments: 101"?
BMTman
What course did he teach? Was it "How to Attack People with Sharp Instruments: 101"?
Excerpt from the article:
Another professor will take over the two classes taught at Suffolk County Community College by adjunct Prof. Raphael Stern: ethics, and issues of philosophy, a spokesman for the State University of New York college said.
He probably was teaching students about the philosophy and ethics behind attacking people with sharp instruments at the latest time.
LOL!
By the time of the flip-flop occurs a large number of the 142/142A's will be in service. How easy and how long will it take to reprogram all of the automated announcements to give the correct transfer information?
They probably have all the possible codes in them just as the R-44/46 signs do.
7221on the
6
|
TO BROOKLYN BRIDGE
|
(6) PELHAM BAY PARK
They can't have them programmed the announcements yet !!!! They don't even know what they will call the rerouted lines yet. You can't program what you don't know !!
They could have recorded the announcer saying all the letters and numbers. Then it's just a matter of choosing which routes are read off at which station and when, since all the announcements are pieced together from little bits of recordings.
We all know that conductors announce transfers anyway they want. (Correct or incorrect). Letting T/O's hit the proper buttons will give the same results.
You have to make it as id**t proof as possible, and that means pre-programming. That takes time. Will all cars be reprogrammed during a weekend, or will it take days, weeks, months etc.
Some T/O's seem to have forgotten how to change roll signs. I've lost count of the number of northbound trains that say 'Brooklyn Bridge' or 'Bowling Green'. I've also seen plenty of southbound trains (in service) that say Dyre, 177th Street or Pehlem Bay.
When the R-142A first started running on the 6, the announcement for Bleecker incorrectly gave the IND transfers in both directions. Within the first week or so they fixed it so the transfer was announced only going downtown. Adding or removing a couple of lines from the transfer announcements for a few stations should be easy.
As you within a week they did 1 train. When the have 30,40, 50 or more how long will it take ?
If it's a simple data change in the computer (which I hope it is), it should be straightforward to update hundreds of trains in a week.
If it's a simple data change in the computer (which I hope it is), it should be straightforward to update hundreds of trains in a week. .
"Which I hope it is" is what's important !
I don't know for a fact how it works but if they weren't complete morons when they designed it, this is how I'd have done it. Do all the programming in a central computer, which then builds a single big-ass data file to be uploaded to all the car computers (similar to updating the BIOS or firmware on some piece of computer hardware). The big data file could be transfered using some simple handheld device. You could even use something like an mp3 player which is essentially a storage device that you can read/write to using an interface like USB. Could be done with all off-the-shelf parts. The car computer could have even been designed so that if one got a new "firmware" it would program all of the others on the train by itself.
But, I'm sure it's much more difficult, time consuming, and costly than that :-)
But, I'm sure it's much more difficult, time consuming, and costly than that :-)
I agree !!
Plus it makes too much sense.:-)
Yes, the BADF method! Know it well :)
--Mark
Hey Jrf, why did you put asterisks in place of "idiot"? Is there some reason why you can't write the actual word?
- Lyle Goldman
No !! I just was trying to be a little nice instead of going on a total rampage. I use the word. There are many idiot's in the MTA and elsewhere !!!
You can't program what you don't know !!
Evidently you've never tried acquiring user requirements for automated systems. I do this all the time :)
--Mark
Evidently you've never tried acquiring user requirements for automated systems. I do this all the time :)
I program for a living. I've trained my users on the GIGO principle.
If you change your requirements, it costs you. (Time and money) !!
GiGo ... but they never learn, do they? :)
Gives me job security!
--Mark
Gives me job security!
Me too !!
And for those that don't know GIGO = Garbage In Garbage Out !!
The 63rd Street Connector tracks are electrified. The signals are on already. They should open the connection along with the Manhattan Bridge flip-flop. Heres what they can do:
B Service
B trains from Upper Manhattan terminate at Grand Street.
D Service
All D trains run on F line south of West 4th Street to/from Coney Island, running express Jay Street to Church Avenue in both directions, express Jay Street to Kings Highway to Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM.
E Service
Express in Queens (Off hours: Forest Hills to Queens Plaza only), Local in Manhattan, via 53rd STreet Tunnel 24 hours a day.
F Service
Local in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn 24 hours a day, via 53rd Street Tunnel always.
G Service
Runs between Court Square and Church Avenue 24 hours a day.
M Service
unchanged
N Service
Ditmars Blvd-Astoria to Coney Island
Express 57th Street-7th Avenue, Manhattan to 59th Street-4th Avenue, Brooklyn weekdays 6am-8pm, skipping DeKalb Avenue via Manhattan Bridge. Express 57th Street-7th Avenue, Manhattan to Canal Street, local in Brooklyn, stopping at DeKalb Avenue all other times, via Manhattan Bridge.
Q Service
57th Street-7th Avenue to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
Express in Manhattan and Brooklyn, weekdays 6am-9pm via Manhattan Bridge, Brighton Express
R Service
unchanged
T Service
57th Street-7th Avenue to Coney Island, Brooklyn.
Express 57th Street-7th Avenue, Manhattan to 36th Street-4th Avenue, Brooklyn 6am-8pm daily, skipping DeKalb Avenue via Manhattan Bridge. Express 57th Street-7th Avenue, Manhattan to Canal Street, local in Brooklyn, stopping at DeKalb Avenue all other times, via Manhattan Bridge.
W Service
Ditmars Blvd-Astoria to Coney Island, Brooklyn
Local all the way via Montague Street Tunnel & Brighton Local.
One more thing, the T is West End Express, replacing the B and the W is the Brighton Local, replacing the D. Also the V runs between 179th Street and the World Trade Center, via the 63rd STreet Tunnel, making express stops in Queens and local stops in Manhattan with the F north of West 4th Street and local stops with the E, south of West 4th Street.
I'm just returning to SubTalk after many months. Can someone explain the details of the flip-flop? (Sorry to those who know it already)
From what I understand, the DOT is turning the Manhattan Bridge south side H tracks back over to the NYCT. At that point, the NYCT will return the north side A tracks back to the DOT. As for service plans and such, nothing is final yet.
-Shawn
Wednesday's Jersey Journal reports that the Newport extension of the HBLR will begin service on Saturday. Fanfare to include Santa's arrival and a parade from the station to the Newport Centre.
I will be there on Saturday - along with fellow members of the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders' Association.
Seen the new photos of the HBLR extension yet?
No?
Look here for Harborside
And look here for Harsimus Cove and Newport.
-Dave
Indeed I have, Dave! I saw them this past Sunday evening : - ) Once again, another fine set of pics!
Very nice Dave, thaks for sharing !
Mr t__:^)
From the New York Times:
'Lubricant' on Tracks Offers Clue to Austrian Fire.
--Mark
From the New York Times:
Amtrak Is Putting Its Hope on a Successful Acela Express.
As I read the article from this link, I happened to notice there was a banner ad taking up the whole right column of my screen for Trip.com, which read "Book your flight with Trip.com and get carried away." It had an animated graphic of an airplane zooming up, up and away. Let's hear it for oxy-moronic ad placement! God bless the internet! :o)
Late last night as I was making my transfer from the 1 to the 2 at 14 street, I smelt this strong stench of alcohol. I looked at this homeless person but it wasn't him. But then I turned around and whew, a strong odor of beer breath on the conductor. So I copied down his badge number and called up customer service who then said that they will investigate.
Possible Suggestions from a fellow 1/9 liner:
1. Check the floor for ammonia?
2. Check your own left breast pocket for bottles?
(the SCENT could be coming from right under YOUR nose).
3. Check Proximity... What were you doing SO CLOSE
to the conductor in order to have been able to
smell his breath?
4. Don't be so quick to "name" yourself after
calling customer service reporting what could
very well have been a fellow SubTalker.
Homeline and proud.
The reason I was so close is because I was asking if the #2 was still running express.
So what if it WAS a "fellow SubTalker". If he was on the job and had what MIGHT have been liquor on his breath, he SHOULD have been reported.
And if he is sent for a drug/alcohol screen and comes up positive, all the better that someone DID report him. If the screen comes up negative, better safe than sorry is what I say.
I actually had someone call the agency where *I* drive a bus, and they said they thought they smelled liquor on my breath. A supervisor came out and took me for a drug/alcohol screen, and I got the rest of the day off...with pay...and the results came back absolutely 0.0 negative. (Gawd, it had better be -- I have never drank any liquor in my life!!!)
What WAS on my breath? Chloraseptic brand throat lozenges. Had to keep the throat loosened up to make the required ADA announcements on the bus.
Actually, I am glad someone did call in....not that I got half the day off with pay, but because I'm glad someone thought to be concerned that someone COULD be out there on duty, with people's lives in their hands, and be impaired from drugs or alcohol.
Actually, I am glad someone did call in....not that I got half the day off with pay, but because I'm glad someone thought to be concerned that someone COULD be out there on duty, with people's lives in their hands, and be impaired from drugs or alcohol.
I like your attitude, Steve...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe you were inquiring about Train Operator training in a previous post. Are you on the list? If you are and eventually get the job, I hope somebody calls up and makes the same allegation about you!This is directed to all TA Dept of Subways employees on this site: If you smell any alcohol or marijuana at your operating position or anywhere on your train while changing ends in a relay position, call control center to document this.
"Are you on the list? If you are and eventually get the job, I hope somebody calls up and makes the same allegation about you!"
Some of the people on this board are real pieces of work! We bitch and moan about graffiti criminals, calling for their 'nads on a silver platter and other colorful punishments. But if someone mentions reporting a TA employee for a violation that actually endangers passengers instead of just making the trains and stations look bad, then it's guaranteed that at least one person will post a response condemning the original poster for narking out a TA worker. Funny, TA uniforms are blue, aren't they?
If you had bothered to read my post carefully, I indicated that we can potentially walk through a car with a odor of marijuana or alcohol on the floor. As a result of the complaint, the person will be taken out of service. In the TA, you're guilty until proven innocent. If the person is found guilty, then it's his own fault. If he's found innocent, the TA will still have him under the microscope. There's a possibility that Vernon isn't telling the whole truth. There could've been several people close to him and he could've presumed the conductor had the smell of alcohol on him. You indicate the conductor committed a violation. Do you know the results of the blood alcohol test? I don't think so! I believe you're a lawyer. Isn't it funny, I thought your profession believes in innocence before guilt. What a bunch of crap! Another thing, Don't you ever refer to me as a piece of work again!
>>> There could've been several people close to him and he could've presumed the conductor had the smell of alcohol on him. You indicate the conductor committed a violation. Do you know the results of the blood alcohol test? I don't think so! <<<
I am a civil libertarian who abhors random drug testing, but where there is a suspicion of drug or alcohol use, I see nothing wrong with a passenger reporting it and the TA investigating immediately. If the TA holds it against an employee when a suspicion is proved to be unfounded after a test, that is a problem with the TA that the union should address.
Maybe the person reporting an alleged violation is mistaken for any of the reasons that you mentioned, but I see no reason for a passenger to avoid reporting the incident because he is not absolutely sure there is a violation. Certainty is not required to start an investigation, only an honest suspicion.
Tom
Out of lurk mode ... spent most of 2000 living in SF, now returning to NYC. While here, I've really enjoyed riding the "F" Line in SF.
For those who don't know, it's a surface line from Castro Street along Market to the Ferry Building, then along Embarcadero to Fisherman's Wharf (extension opened March 4). Rolling stock is collection of old PCC cars, "Peter Witt" trams from Milan and misc. historic streetcars. See their website (www.streetcar.org) for full details of rolling stock and everything else.
It costs $1 (same as Muni) and is hugely popular w/tourists AND locals. And no wonder ... the PCC cars (my faves) are painted in authentic color schemes of the different cities around the country that operated PCCs, with fans of various cities lobbying to get their favorite city or livery used on future PCCs as they enter service.
For SubTalk local PCC fans, there's a wonderful Brooklyn-liveried PCC (see http://www.streetcar.org/1053.html) and a Newark one (see http://www.streetcar.org/1060.html).
The "F" Line is operated by Market Street Railway. It is "an all volunteer non-profit group of over 1,000 members. We are dedicated to the preservation and operation of historic transit vehicles in San Francisco. Our organization and its members have acquired and donated a number of vintage streetcars, cable cars and buses to the San Francisco Municipal Railway. Our volunteers assist Muni in restoring and maintaining the vintage transit fleet. We are also committed to helping make the City's historic streetcar, cable car, and bus operations a continuing success through promotional efforts, liaison with business and neighborhood groups, and other beneficial activities."
OK, so here's the brainstorming part. Where would SubTalkers operate such a historic transit line in NYC?
Few things to bear in mind:
- "F" Line is connected to rest of system but physically separate from any current non-historic operations.
- It parallels the heaviest-traffic part of Muni streetcars, the Muni Metro tunnels under Market Street
- Serves 2 distinct functions: Takes locals to/from work AND tourists to tourist attractions like F's Wharf
- It's operated by specially qualified Muni drivers and is actually part of the "real" Muni, NOT a separate tourist RR
- They've made various mods to cars to help ADA compliance
- Cars are immaculate (probably much better shape than in service when current) save for the odd bit of scratchiti
- FYI, SF has no Transit Museum but this has obviously increased desire for one
I'd love to see SubTalkers weigh in with serious brainstorming on this one (esp. Larry Littlefield!) ... if we're truly fans of urban transit AND historic train buffs, could we "build" something in theory that would actually make sense and be realistic for NYC?
The floor is open.
Are there still tracks in the streets in New York? Here in Philadelphia we not only have the tracks, but the overhead wires, AND a fleet of PCC cars that is not being used for anything, except the few that we sold, which are now part of San Francisco's F line. All it would take it to roll the cars out again.
Michalovic
From what I know, all of the tracks, atleast in Brooklyn, have either been ripped up or paved over. In some places in Brooklyn. Like around the Bushwick area I guess, you can see the rail poking through where the pavement has worn away. There are no overhead wires anywhere at all.
-Shawn
And a tourist trolley did operate with PCCs in Center City - the Welcome Line along 11th and 12th Streets from Noble to Bainbridge Streets. Also a tram ran along the Delaware River. But both lines have been suspended. I think maybe the two lines should be connected and operated as one at it should be operated as part of the SEPTA system and shown on the rail system map.
There are plenty of street tracks on the waterfront areas of Brooklyn.
In the Bush Terminal Marine area, the street tracks -- which are the trolley-car type -- are still in use on most of 1st Avenue and small sections of 2nd from 39th Street on down to Brooklyn Army Terminal.
The other tracks that are clearly visible are the remnants of the old Jay Street Connecting Railroad. The best places to get photos of the tracks among the cobblestoned streets would be Plymouth Street between Main and Jay Streets. The Manhattan Bridge's Brooklyn casement sits behind a nice Diamond-crossover at Plymouth and Adams Streets.
BMTman
And you Philadelphians might get your wish-- look for PCCs operating regularly downtown for the holidays. And rumor has it they plan to get at least part of the #23 back in service as well...
Hey -
Have you already forgotten the Brooklyn Historic Railway, which is building a car line on the Red Hook waterfront? New waterfront loop trackage, with a connection to the old Crosstown line trackage on Richards St.
4 cars on the property, one is operational, another is close to it. And they have a franchise to build and operate on the streets. It's being done!
Lest we forget the Atlantic Ave. tunnel. They might even run the cars through it.
The Rockaway Branch, from Broad Channel to Rego Park!
avid
Wondering how many tourists THIS is likely to attract ....
six or seven...
Perhaps a better choice would be the one unused track over the HELLSGATE from Freshpond Road to the Branford Trolley Museum? Might snag a few for the veiw DAY or NIGHT city afetre dark.
I'm trying.
avid
Maybe use some retired arrow I or II cars
Maybe use some retired Arrow I or II cars or interurbans or what ever is compatible with the service availible overhead.
avid
Too bad a trolley median wasn't considered in the center of "West Side Boulevard" in Manhattan. It's wide enough for 3 lanes of traffic in each direction with a two track line in the center median, and it would offer great views of the Hudson River. I think enough traffic would be generated to make it profitable, too, and it would serve as a west side line that I don't think exists today with bus service.
--Mark
Well the last time I went down West Street, it looked to be under a lot of construction. I guess it's too late now to consider adding a trolley median. Bad NYC transportation planning strikes again!
it could be like the Trollies on New Orleans waterfront that run along the Mississippi, I forget the name of the line
That would be the Riverfront Trolley line. It was standard gauge back in 1994 when I rode on it; however, I understand it has since been regauged to 5' 2.5", same as the St. Charles line.
I just remember the red cars, with their tracks next to the freight line
Speaking of New Orleans, I saw a modern LRV being tested on the old tracks that run down the median of Canal Street a little over a year ago when I was down there. Does anyone know anything about this?
I saw it in August 1999 running on the Riverfront line and on the short portion of Canal Street that was operational then. It ran, of course, on the St. Charles line on its way to and from the Canal Street connection to the Riverfront line.
It was a demonstrator built in the Czech republic. My wife and I asked to ride it, but the motorman preferred to run without passengers and wouldn't let us on. It was the only air conditioned car on the line.
Funny this topic should come up today. Theo Neutelings, my new European contributor whose photos you might have seen on the site in the past couple of weeks, sent me today a bunch of New Orleans trolley photos including a bunch of the CKD-Tatra (Czech Republic) experimental LRV.
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/neworleans
Thanks Theo! (Although I don't believe he's a SubTalker)
Dave
What's experimental about these Tatras, they look like they have looked for the past 20 years?
Arti
Well, I guess, it was an experiment to run one in New Orleans...
I wonder how much less do they cost compared to something from Bombardier for example?
Arti
Looks as if the Canal St. line is open for business. I recognized the St. Charles line.
Actually, the Canal Streetcar and the Desire Streetcar lines are still in the planning stages, as is the Airport line. Here's the New Orelans RTA website to find out more about it:
http://www.regionaltransit.org/mainpage.html
Michalovic
The Desire Streetcar line? Now there really will be a streetcar named Desire!
The Desire Streetcar line? Now there really will be a streetcar named Desire!
Once upon a time there was... now there will be again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess you never saw that great play called
"A foul smelling diesel bus named #84 Desire" :-)
Tom
That's worth a rim shot. I stand corrected on my Canal St. line observation.
* in the bay area there was the KEY system which ran acroos the oakland bay bridge ( the surviving cars are at the orange empire museum ) this subway type dual electric type trolley/subway.
& the sacramento northern electric @ you can see these all on daves electric railroads. one electric engine is on display there also
I have just moved away from the Big E-Z; and the Riverfront Line - the RED streetcars - runs from Esplanade Ave near the French market, via adjacent tracks to the IN USE railway line that hugs the river, and ends at the Riverwalk - which is near the Morial Convention Center. The fare is the standard $1.25. The current Canal St line is a branch of this line, starting at the Esplanade Ave terminal and branches off the Riverfront line at Canal St, and continues up Canal St and terminates at Dauphine and Canal Sts. That is one block lakeside (aways from the river) from Bourbon St. The Czech LRV is used on this line and does carry passengers, the other car is a different version of the Riverfront cars, I believe the number is 2001. This car is newly built in New Orleans and is ADA compliant. The fare on this branch line is only $0.25; it normally runs almost empty. It is a part of the effort to revitalize the downtown portion of Canal St, which due to many reasons has suffered major decline, and is no longer a major shopping area in the city. Of course the other line is the famous St. Charles line, which is always at least 50% of capacity - and is supplemented during the rush hours by buses.
Will the city buy more modern LRV's? Well, bluntly; maybe the underpinnings will be modern, but the exteriors will be period; and since the new lines are being built with Federal Funding, they will have to be ADA compliant. Maybe the phrase "new old" would better apply!
That would be nice. Now if only we could get the DOT to see it that way . . .
Maybe some kind of historic trolley operation could operate along the Hudson River waterfront. It could serve the Intrepid Air/Space Museum, the Javits Center, the Chelsea Piers and the Circle Line. Plus commuters could use the trams to get to the World Trade Center area. One more possibility is that the trolley line could turn east to serve the South St Seaport, but street traffic might make that a tough sell.
Hmmmmmm. What that brings to mind is George Haikalis's small pressure group to institute an 8th Street crosstown light-rail project. I get their newsletters. Wonder if THAT could use historic cars?
I like the idea of a Hudson River waterfront trolley. Mark Feinman's right ... I wonder if there was ever any pressure to do a trolley ROW along the rebuilt West Side Boulevard/Route 9A rebuild? Seems like the median could handle it now, but you'd have to rip out the trees that I think they're planning to install, and for Westsiders, ANY kind of green is really, really valuable. Hmmmmmmmmm.
Maybe some kind of historic trolley operation could operate along the Hudson River waterfront. It could serve the Intrepid Air/Space Museum, the Javits Center, the Chelsea Piers and the Circle Line. Plus commuters could use the trams to get to the World Trade Center area. One more possibility is that the trolley line could turn east to serve the South St Seaport, but street traffic might make that a tough sell.
The Market Street tracks, BTW, were torn up and then replaced when the combined Muni Metro/BART tunnels were installed below Market. Now THAT was a hideous construction project. Had a friend who lost his brand-new Toyota pickup to a cavein.
There is a photo of streetcar tracks zigzagging along a torn-up Market St. while all that construction was going on. I understand that brand new track was installed on Market St. for the F line.
To succeed, a historic line has to meet several requirements.
First, it has to go somewhere where tourists want to go.
Second, it has to attract enough regular riders to keep it going during the off-season.
Third, the service has to be frequent, and offer transfers to/from the rest of the transit system.
Fourth, there have to be good connections to the rest of the system.
Fifth, the equipment being operated has to be historically appropriate, but the maintainers and operators have to be ready to deal with the realities of operation in a big city. (traffic, accidents, vandalism etc.)
Sixth (and most important) it cannot be a political 'hot potato'. It has to have the unqualified support of every agency involved, including adequate funding. San Francisco's Market Street group does a great job but MUNI built the railroad, and operates it.
The question to ask in NYC is:
Can the City of NY, the MTA, the Port Authority, Department of Public Utilities and whoever else may become involved get their act together enough to make something like this happen?
Remember that the Second Av. Subway has been desperately needed for over 45 years and is still only partially built, with no section useable! To put a historic transit line in the city is an enormous challenge, whether it be a West Side line in Manhattan, or the Brooklyn group's project, which probably would have a hard time meeting all six of the above requirements for success.
To those thinking RAILROAD, remember that the safety requirements escalate if you are connected to the 'National' rail system, bringing the STB and FRA into play.
I am not trying to throw cold water on the scheme, just looking at the realities involved, and the differences between San Francisco and New York! Good luck to anyone who wants to try!
[Second, it has to attract enough regular riders to keep it going during the off-season. ]
There's no off-season in NYC.
Arti
In Portland Ore.we have a cross town type of trolley line going in,it will have cars built that look like old double truck types,like the cars which have been operation now for about 5 years,and they are a big hit.
I think a big part of it was MUNI had already gotten over the
hump of "oh my god, we're running this old shit in public service??"
because of the cable car system. You've got a number of people
in MUNI, like Karl J., who have a clue and make this work.
The F Market Castro was a great route because it runs along
one of the busiest corridors in SF. So it serves a legit
transit purpose both for tourists and regulars, and even though
it parallels the metro subway for a bit, the surface-running
service with stops every few blocks is differentiable.
I have a little beef with the "authentic" paint schemes, but
that, I guess, is the difference in perspective between museums
and tourist railways. Let me just point out that Brooklyn cars
did not have standee windows (except for the Clark car #1000).
Make something like this happen in NY? fuh-getit. The closest thing
you are likely to see is Bob Diamond's Red Hook railway, and
unfortunately that is not going to be along a high-traffic corridor
(yet, who knows, maybe in 20 years....) Where these corridors
do exist and there is a need for rail transit, e.g. the 42 St
crosstown line (which I guess is dead again), the political pressure
in NYC will be so tremendous that getting something "historic"
pushed through would be real tough.
What helped in San Francisco is that the tracks along Market St. were left in place along with the overhead wires when the five other streetcar routes began operating in the subway full time. I can't wait to visit San Francisco again someday with my camera equipment - I'd have a field day with the cable cars and streetcars.
I was walking up Broadway Sunday (because of the GO and no N/R from Brooklyn I got off the D at Laffaette and walked to East 8th) and at the Woman's clothing store Wet Seal at the corner of Broadway and Bond I saw full car ends in the window. Now I am not familar with IRT car spotting, it looked like R17 ends with horn and handbrake and circle window but anyone know about these??
They were painted white and it is only the ends of the car that are there.
They have been there for years !!!!
Gee thanks, what Car type are they?
I'm afraid I don't remember. The last time I was past it was at least 5-6 years ago before I moved to Connecticut.
I remember it as a circle window, meaning it could be the R-15 or R-17.
AFAIK, the R-15 did not have a fully arched roof, so that leaves the R-17.
Now I assume it's an IRT car because of the 6 sign. Nothing would stop them from using an R-16 and putting a 6 sign up there though.
The R15 does have an arched roof.
Click here for more.
The car ends were also there when Wet Seal was a Reebok store. They also have a throttle on them. There is an R17 end with a 6 in a green circle and there's an R21/22 end with a gray S. As far as I know they're still there.
I propose a SubTALK "mini-trip" to that storefront
for photo ops.. and a venture INTO the store
for those on the daring side of adventure.
People say they've been there for years, but I pass that corner
frequently and only noticed them a few weeks ago. Perhaps they
were relocated within the store (into which I've never ventured).
Btw, R17 and a 21/22 front, painted white.
Thanks Jeff,
I only walked by b/c of no N/R, funny.
How far is it from Tower Records? I'm in that area every time I visit New York, and haven't seen them even though I've looked for them.
About a 5 minute walk going south on Broadway. The store is on the left as you walk.
Are there still remnants of tracks around the English Kills and what kind of neighborhood is it.Any good photo ops?
Check out Forgotten NY.
You'll find what you're looking for in there!
>>>Check out Forgotten NY.
You'll find what you're looking for in there! <<<
Hey Pork, you wanna be my slogan writer?
For pics of LIRR tracks over the English Kills, try this page.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Bushwickbranch/bushwick.html
The ever,
the arely,
and
the here-the-hell-is-it?
The legacy will thus live on.
I was wondering if any of you have dealt with this situation before. 2 weeks ago 2 rolls of my pictures were sent from NJ to the Clark photo-devoloping place with my school address on the return package. This process always takes 1 week from sending to recieving. Well now its been 2 weeks and I am very worried that my irreplacable pictures have been lost in the void. Is there anything I can do to get my photos?
have you tried calling clark to see if they recieve them and sent them back?
You will fill out a form describing the subject of the missing pictures.
A processor lost a roll of my super-8 movie film years ago, but I eventually got it back based on the subject description of kids (no help here), freight trains with Penn Central diesel engines, and passenger trains with GG-1's.
I just learned that the 85 new P42-9DC's are the final F40 replacement and with the completion of the order all F40's were be removed from intercity passenger trains. The P42-9DC's lack the "equipment" to run on the NEC and will be based out of Chicago. This seems rather odd as several Chicago hub lines have cab signaling and this lack of ATC could only hamper future attempts at a hi-speed Midwest corridor. Anyway, GE was said to have lowered the price of the P42's to something lower than continued operation of the F40's. 15 F40's will remain in the Phaze IV paint scheeme, but I am not sure if they only refers to the Chicago Terminal or both Chicago Terminal and New Englande service routes. I see the Inland Route trains being F40 powered for years to come. I would also look to F40's for holding down all the Standby power jobs on the NEC.
Its a shame to see them go. The F40 was the very first locomotive I learned to visually identify (I was about 9 at the time). I'd look for them to pop up on various freight lines who want an Office Car train (like CSX) and commuter lines (I'm looking at MARC, VRE, ConnDOT, MTBA and maybe NJT to replace its CNJ GP-40P's, but I doubt it).
My first encounter with F40's was a disappointment. I was working in Radnor taking a brief walk at lunch time when I heard what sounded like a steam whistle in the distance (west). The walk was no longer brief; I walked up to the tracks (where the main line goes over the P&W) and about 20 minutes after the whistle had sounded, the eastbound Broadway Limited went past pulled by two F40's. Apparently the engineer had blown the five chime horn upon leaving Paoli, causing me to steal 25 minutes from my employer. Until that day, the Broadway had been pulled by one or two GG-1's. The second was for failure protection during the deferred maintenance years; one G could easily pull a 15 car Broadway Limited at speed.
I didn't like them at first because I thought the noses were "boxy."
I got used to them though.
I'll hate the "Pepsi Cans" forever!
The GG-1 years were over around 1980. The F40's began service in 82-83. YOu Probably saw the Broadway pulled by 2 SDP-40's. They were one of 2 intermediate designs (along w/ the GE P30) that were rejected because of a possible connection w/ a rash hi-speed derailments and the 3 axle trucks.
The GG-1 years were over around 1980.
The last GG-1 ran in late 1983, 49 years and 5 months after the first one ran in revenue service.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On NJT, not Amtrak, Amtrak had them phazed out sometime before 1983. I can tell you for sure that in 1982 they were not running on Amtrak. All I'm saying is that the F40's came in with the toasters and from about 1976-1981/82 the main Amtrak diesels were heritage E's, GE P30's and EMD SDP-40's.
Ugh, why do people call the AEM-7s toasters? They don't LOOK like toasters, and let's face it, Sweedish meatball is such a better nickname for them...
Heheh, SDP-40 and P-30s...heh, those were a great investment on Amtrak's part!!! The only bright side about the SDPs is I think they were traded in, so it wasn't a total loss. Nothing kicks off a national rail service quite like having brand new equipment banned by various railroads....
why do people call the AEM-7s toasters? They don't LOOK like toasters
They look like toasters USED to look. In the Philly/South Jersey area I heard the term "Mighty Mouse" before I heard "toaster".
The GG-1 years were over around 1980 [on Amtrak]. The F40's began service in 82-83. (Jersey Mike, message 167935)
Thanks for the memory jog, Mike. Amtrak used black (Penn Central) E units on the Broadway on the Main Line between the GG-1 and F40 eras.
Dig yourself up a photograph of the AEM-7 Sweedish Rh4 demonstrator. It looks just like a toaster.
OK, here's the dates: Conrail retired theirs in the fall of 1979, Amtrak ran them for the last time on 1 May 1981, and NJT closed out the era with the final run on 29 October 1983, 49 years and two months (not five, as I said earlier) after "Old Rivets" was delivered to the Pennsy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where did you work in Radnor? I grew up there.
1972 to 1987. I live in South Jersey and commuted on PATCO, Market Street subway/el, and P&W. During Septa City Division strikes I used the Paoli Local.
Thanks, but I was asking _where_ you worked in Radnor.
Sorry; I read it as 'when'.
Wyeth. The P&W Radnor station is at the end of the employee parking lot.
Do you remember a setup where a kid sold the Evening Bulletin at Wyeth? That was my brother for a while.
Yes, I remember the Bulletin being sold at Wyeth. Small world.
Now the entire complex is moving to Collegeville, so all the employees who make the move will have to drive to work. When my job moved from Radnor to South Brunswick, I missed the two hours per day reading on transit (it took a while before I was able to read on the bumpy P&W; PATCO had a smoother ride then than it has now, and I was able to read immediately. The Market Street subway/el took a little getting used to). Also, I gained 10 pounds shortly after the move. I concluded that this was because I walked up 7 flights of stairs before starting work and now just 1. I walked up 1 flight at Lindenwold, 1 at 8th and Market (from PATCO to Market subway), 1 at 69th Street, 1 to go over the pedestrian overpass at the Radnor P&W station, and 3 more to my job on the 4th floor.
And in five years Wyeth will be bellyaching for better road access in Collegeville. !$@^$!^$
Radnor Township made Wyeth widen King of Prussia Road in order to get approval to construct the ugly green box research building that looks like a warehouse.
A pet peeve of mine when I worked there was that Wyeth spent big bucks to subsidize employee driving (construction, maintenance and real estate tax on the "improvement" for 2 large parking lots for free employee parking), yet did not participate in Septa's program for employers to partially subsidize employee use of transit. And the P&W station is at the end of the north parking lot and the R5 Radnor station is a 7 minute walk.
"The P42-9DC's lack the 'equipment' to run on the NEC and will be based out of Chicago. This seems rather odd as several Chicago hub lines have cab signaling and this lack of ATC could only hamper future attempts at a hi-speed Midwest corridor."
I don't think it'll be a problem. The bidding is already open for the (diesel) high-speed trainsets that the initial network (Chicago east to Detroit, southwest to St. Louis, and north to Milwaukee and Madison) will need, so the Midwest corridor plan is definitely a "go". However, not all of the other planned routes are slated to operate at high speeds, and the extra P42s will do quite nicely on those routes, presumably pulling refurbished Amfleets and such.
Although tomorrow's Acela Express is only for VIPs, after more than one year of testing, finally Acela Express is officially running.
I am going to DC Metro's Landover Station to take the pictures of this historic run. Hopefully the weather is okay tomorrow.
Chaohwa
Hey, try to take some photos of LANDOVER tower for me. Its the peach coloured one on the far side of the Amtrak tracks. Thanks.
I think Landover tower is between Orange Line's Landover and Cheverly. Based on past photographing experiences, I don't think the Landover Tower is in sight from Orange Line's Landover Station.
Chaohwa
Could you take a pic out the window?
If the Landover Tower is in sight from the Orange Line train, I will try it for you.
Chaohwa
I was just back from Landover. There is indeed a unused tower just west of Landover Metro Station, but it cannot be seen from the platform. The power was painted white. I don't know whether this is the tower Jersey Mike mentioned.
I took a slide picture of that tower, but the windows of the Metrorail Train I was on were very dirty. I was not happy about that picture.
Chaohwa
Yes, that's the one. Its the former PRR LANDOVER tower. Thanks for taking the picture.
From what I understand, the Acela Express train is coming in at 5:10 PM to Boston's South Station. Is this time correct? If it is, would any Boston subtalkers like to meet up at the track? -Nick
From what I understand, the Acela Express train is coming in at 5:10 PM to Boston's South Station. Is this time correct? If it is, would any Boston subtalkers like to meet up at the track? -Nick
When I was at Union Station this evening, I saw people put two large-screen TVs, and an "Acela" arch around Track 11 to prepare for the ceremony tomorrow.
As for the weather, not good news. It will be mostly cloudly tomorrow. I may be going to New Carrollton around 9:50AM, depending on the conditions.
Chaohwa
Does anyone here know how to get in touch with the above named occasional SubTalker?
I have some info for him, and his listed E-mail address is apparently no good!
I have seen a picture caption of the C-Types, on the Fulton St el, which described them as articulated units.
Were they ever by any stretch of the imagination considered to be articulated?
The C types had an enclosed passage between units like the D's and Multis. They did not share trucks between cars. As far as I know.....they were not considered articulated.
They were not articulated. They had an enclosed passageway
between the cars of a unit but I don't know if it was a rigid
structure with a circular turret floor a-la the D types or
just a bellows to keep out the weather. Each 3-car set had
a full complement of 6 trucks, but only 2 of them were motor
trucks, just like the Qs.
The picture caption to which I refer appears early (the pages are not numbered) in Allan H. Berner's spiral bound North American Street Railways At Mid-Century.
The C-Type seems to be traveling east, turning over Conduit Blvd, into Liberty Ave, and approaching the Crescent St station. Naturally this el has been gone now more than forty years.
Incidentally the Crescent St station in the foreground of the picture looks to be a duplicate of the ends of the original Marcy Ave station (near the Willie B) from the 1940's.
Did you ever ride on the C-types?
Did you ever ride on the C-types?
Only when I absolutely had to. The C's and Q's were not my favorite models by a long shot, and I would always opt for the original BU if I had the choice.
The C-Types were not articulated--they were semi-permanently joined, with structures between the cars.
The "September" issue of The Third Rail (hope to have it up this weekend) includes a drawing of the C's from the side, which you can view here.
Notice especially that the trucks adjacent to the joints rest on their original kingpins, while the joining platforms have been removed instead of enclosed.
I guess I never thought about it, and did not realize that they chopped the platforms off. If they chopped four of the six end platforms off on a three car set, that would make a three car set of C's about 12 feet shorter than a three car set of BU's. They apparently used a different plan on the Q's.
Thanks for the link!
A three-car "C" unit was 137 feet, give or take a coupla inches. That's almost identical to a Triplex "D" type. I don't know if that similarity was intentional (the first "C" was 1923, the first "D" 1925) but it would be an odd coincidence, no?
The drawing is correct for cars 1502 - 1526, inclusive which were built in 1925. The original type C cars (1500 and 1501), built in 1923, had a single center door in each car.
Let me clarify my previous post, before it is misunderstood. Cars 1500 and 1501 did have two doors. However these doors were in the center of the car not near the ends as in the 1925 models. The distance between the two doors was about the width of a single window.
A few years ago, US Healthcare ran an advertisement that showed these cars on the Fulton Line. I doubt they knew how rare this picture was.
A few years ago, US Healthcare ran an advertisement that showed these cars on the Fulton Line. I doubt they knew how rare this picture was.
I have this picture, from that ad, hanging in my office (with the ad part cut off). It is a great picture.
--Mark
This morning my #4 train was taken out of service at Atlantic Ave. First of all, it was ten minutes late out of NL. Then when we boarded the lead car which was 1570, the door chimes were either low or it would not chime at all. We got to Utica, and it went express on the local track to Nostrand where it switched over. That was no biggie. When we were departing Franklin, the conductor came on borad and said, "Atlantic is the next and last stop on this train due to mechanical problems". Anyhow, when we got to Atlantic, I avoided trying to get on the Lex and went downstairs for the R to Court St.
1. The train ran smoothly. The only thing I can think of it being taken out of service is for the doors. Does anybody know for sure?
2. The passengers on the 4 were complaining about going downstairs and taking the N/R. "It stops at every stop until you get to where you have to go." One lady said.
Train#1910Mike
BMT Man, dont start on the "You should have taken the L this morning" crap.
why didn't u take the 5? or the 2/3? what about those? wouldn't that make ur trip still quick? i mean for the passengers. all when they get to fulton st in manhattan. then they can catch another irt. or taken it further to times square and caught the shuttle. oh well. things happen.
AVERAGE Weekday Morning Commute:
1/9 Van Cortlandt Park to 28th Street: 35 minutes
or..(when I feel chancey).
4 Kingsbridge Road to GCT (not counting the
transfer <7> to the 1 at TS): 55 minutes +...
Analysis:
The 4 sure seems quick to bury itself in the nose
of the tunnel past Yawnkee Stadium, but it
sneaks to a crawl after 149st.. Hum-drum
snail pace on what is SUPPOSEDLY an "express"
run between 125-86-59-42 streets.
Learn.
Ditch the 4 at 149 for the redbird 2.
Did the Math.
I've seen the same thing on Lexington Ave. express trains. The express run is ho-hum. The Park Ave. straightaway is somewhat better.
The Park Ave. straightaway is somewhat better.
One TA dictum is that the Lex foul ups are caused by the moving platform at Union Sq. The slow speeds on Lex and the faster speed on Park Av South and Lafayette contradict this.
The TA's analysis tends to deflect attention towards expensive, long lead time solutions and away from investigation of current operational practices.
35 Minutes out of VC during the morning rush I'm lucky if I'm at 59 St (although sometime I do make it to 42 St). But 28 St? in 35 minutes? Check your watch, it's time for a new battery.
Yeah, just like his 55min kingsbridge to GC it is more like 40 min.
Peace,
ANDEE
The 1/9 does 35 minutes (even in timetable numbers)
and the 4 really does TURTLE along.. myself and
a fellow courier passenger timed the 4.
Want 28th Street in 35 minutes? Hop a 9 out
of VCortlandt.. you'll see it happen.
That's what most of the crowds would've done. Then you'd have 2X the crowd a single 2,3,or 5 train.
running on...
By the time I wait to get on another express, I would have a better chance of getting the M,N,R to Court St. Remember, this is Atlantic Avenue we are talking about. Its a huge transfer point and the LIRR connection.
Train#1911Mike
By the time I wait to get on another express, I would have a better chance of getting the M,N,R to Court St. Remember, this is Atlantic Avenue we are talking about. Its a huge transfer point and the LIRR connection.
Train#1911Mike
By the time I wait to get on another express, I would have a better chance of getting the M,N,R to Court St. Remember, this is Atlantic Avenue we are talking about. Its a huge transfer point and the LIRR connection.
Train#1911Mike
Hey..
them r62/a's on the 4 line are still in mourning...
Remembering #1369
>>>"It stops at every stop until you get to where you have to go." One lady said.<<<
Umm, doesn't this apply to all trains. The ability of people to make stupid statement never ceases to amaze me.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, really. Duh.
B"H
I was on a 5 a few trains back from that 4. We sat in the tunnel between Franklin and Atlantic for about 15 minutes. When we got into Atlantic, I figured i'd switch to the N/R since the Lex line would probably be bunched up and slower than a snail the rest of the way to 14th st. Same difference, because the N/R is sooooo slow anyways. Do you think they could have designed any *more* curves into the lower manhattan section of that line? Sheesh. At least I got to ride an R32 (or maybe a 38, I can never tell the difference) all the way in. :)
Happy Riding,
yitz
At least I got to ride an R32 (or maybe a 38, I can never tell the difference)
On the R32, the corrugations go all the way up on the exterior.
On the R38, the corrugations go all the way up to the windows.
The R38 also have overhead (ha!) grab bars next to the doors, which the R32 cars don't have.
The R38 cars only see service on the 8th Avenue line, although some were spotted on the B and E lines this past February.
R38 Interior
R32 Interior
Since the R38 cars are currently limited to the 8th Avenue Line, the train you got on was a train of R32 cars.
I'm curious as to why you use the 44 part as your handle? That happens to be my favorite number and I'm identified by people who know me as 44. I wore that number on my baseball uniform for 18 years when I managed Babe Ruth and Stan Musial League teams back in the 1970's and 80's.
I thought your favorite number was 4.:-)
Don't tell me you're a Hank Aaron fan deep inside.:-)
A strange thing happened today on a northbound G train.
The G train followed an R train into the station. The signal at the north end of the station changed from RR- to YY-. The conductor announced the next stop would be 36th Street, thinking that the train would continue on the local track. The TO announced that the next stop would actually be Roosevelt---. He was interrupted by the door chimes. Most of the people that were on the train got off, Some getting stuck between the closing doors. The doors re-opened to let out the exodus. A couple of minutes later, the doors closed and we were on our way. Between 65th Street and Roosevelt Avenue, I had spotted the culprit: a disabled G train on its way to Jamaica Yard. The train was being operated from the 5th car, and someone was looking out the front window. A situation similar to an incident involving R40M #4501 on 20 May 1970, an OOS G train on the local track, and an in-service G train on the express track that will be switching to the local track. This time the two trains were going northbound instead of southbound, and all was done to make sure both trains made an uneventful passage through the interlocking to the (system) north of the station. I was able to get to Woodhaven Boulevard in one piece.
It just wasn't a good day for the Queens Boulevard line today, I guess! No morning E service to Manhattan because of a malfunctioning switch at Jamaica Center. Does anyone know what Queens-bound E trains were doing? I'm guessing they ran to 179 (there's some nostalgia - E to 179) or terminated at 71/Continental. Must have been a MESS for passengers coming off the LIRR at Jamaica this morning.
There are two reasons that I can think of that would cause your train to go out of service with advance warning like that.
1) Poor acceleration and/or braking.
2) Defective conductors indication.
USA TODAY article (published Tuesday 11/14/00) "High-speed train set for first run, but crumbling rail conditions along Northeast could slow down the Acela Express", about the start of Acela service, but that poor track conditions will prevent full speed capability of the train equipment.
(Link will be active until early Thurs. morning)
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20001114/2834979s.htm
Aahh, the wonderful Amtrak Reform Council...
Notice how the NEC has "deteriorated" so it can only support 135 mph. Too bad they don't run those 150 mph metroliners anymore. (Yes, some did run for a short while at some speed above 125 mph. But the ride was terrible). The tracks are better than they have ever been. IIRC, the tracks could actually support 150 (and has during Acela tests) but the caternary cannot. That's nitpicking I guess.
Its such a typical move for them to release this right before the Acela celebrity run. Pure politics I'd say.
IIRC, the tracks could actually support 150 (and has during Acela tests) but the caternary cannot.
Everybody always ignores the countless PRR and USDoT tests in the 60's that reached speeds between 156 and 164 mph with out any problems. The ride was a little rough and they couldn't fit in trains at 160mph and 160 was only possible from COUNTY to FAIR due to turns and stuff, but they were sucessful. The Standard Catenary of the World can handle any speed.
BTW, I'll bet that not many of you knew that NYC Niagras frequently ran at speeds reaching 110 or 120. There are even very credible reports of those lovely ladies hitting 130mph. The PRR S2 was geared for 122 and the S1 could pull a 100 car freight train at 70mph. Hi(er)-speed rail is not a new thing in the US.
I believe what he means is that in some areas, the substation
power capacity is limited and therefore power consumption will
have to be curtailed by running at the lower speeds. There is
no mechanical restriction imposed by the catenary per se.
There is no mechanical restriction imposed by the catenary per se.
It's my impression that the pantographs tend to push the catenary at speeds over 135, necessitating a rebuild before 150 is allowed west (south) of Newark.
Also it's my impression that trains at 150 would outrun the signal system unless that's already been modified. (I noticed that signal expert Jersey Mike didn't mention signals).
The problem of the catenary is probbably related to the varying tension, and it's effects on the speeds of waves traveling through the wires (the waves being setup by the pantograph). If the wave travels at the wrong speed, it totally screws up contact, and you get arcing, bounce, etc.
Making the contact wire totally solid is just as bad. You need a certain amount of give to it, but also a certain amount of damping. Also, you probbably need to constrict movement in some directions, but not others. This is what modern catenary is designed to do, and the reason why it outperforms PRR style wires.
The newer TGVs have computer controlled pans on them, that are designed to have variable damping, under computer control. They also lock in the lower arm in place, which can be done because the TGV's wires don't go up and down like crazy like the stuff on the NEC does. Not that vertical variations can't happen, if they're slow enough, it's no biggie.
The TGV also hits speeds where the aerodynamics of the pans come into play. The Acela has to deal with this too, but to a much lesser extant, on account of it's considerably slower speeds.
As far as power, as long as the current's there, it's no problem, the ICE train, and others, can run on 16 2/3 hz 15kv, and even 1500 or 3000V DC
I'm curious as to how long Amtrak runs the Acelas until they start having pantograph problems in the rear unit. Multiple pans and high speeds have traditionally been problems for everyone - the French, the Japanese, the Germans, etc. Now that we're starting to get going faster, I'm guessing we'll be having them too. I'm also curious as to how well the Acelas hold up in service. I give Amtrak about 1 - 2 years before the 150mph speed gets replaced with a 125mph restriction systemwide.
Oh yeah, from what I understand, the signal system can't cope with > 125mph speeds either.
Oh yeah, from what I understand, the signal system can't cope with 125mph speeds either.
They would need to install 5-6 block signaling w/ 2 new cab signals (125 clear and 150 clear).
As for the cat, the pantograph already bounces and acrs. Some computer controled damping would be fine and could eliminate most of the problems.
I heard on the news that they hit 135 MPH Thursday on a streatch in NJ
Mr t__:^)
Its quite possible. The track from FAIR to COUNTY is straight as an arrow and dead flat.
The reporter also said they arrived 2 minutes ahead of schedule ... now if they can only keep that up once all the suits aren't watching.
Mr t__:^)
I've heard that the problem that restricts speeds above 135 on the NEC is not the catenary per se, but the "ramping" of the trolley at overhead bridges. The ramping is not designed to allow speeds higher than 135. To re-ramp every overhead crossing from Newark to Washington is expected to cost many $$$$. (I read somewhere that the cost of re-ramping execeeds the original PRR cost of construction by a factor of 4.)
I suspect we will live with the 135 MPH speed in the NEC for a while.
[I've heard that the problem that restricts speed (is) ... the "ramping" of the trolley at overhead bridges.]
Dan, Can you enlighten some of us that don't know what that means ?
Also, I understand the "problem" North of NYC is curves vs. tilting.
They did "ease" a number of the curves & repaired/re-enforced a number of the bridges, but I understand that they still have to keep down until they reach New Haven.
Mr t__:^)
For some of the bridges on the NEC, for a safe space to be maintained between the wire and the bridge (to prevent grounding out via the air), sometimes the catenary must get a little closer to the tracks. At 150mph this sudden movement of the cat would send the pantograph a-bouncing.
I do not know how big this problem is because aside from terminal areas there are very few "classic" (old) bridges in service. The NEC is grade seperated above the roads. The only bridges are newer ones for like for I-95 and for roads that cross I-95. These bridges are 3-5 feet above the catenary level and need no ramping what-so-ever. I was just watching one of those Amtrak movies w/ a newer bridge in it and the pan didn't ramp at all.
Very clear & detailed answer, even I can understand ... thanks !
Mr t__:^)
I might have forgotten one thing. I was just reviewing those Amtrak movies I downloaded and I thought I saw a downward movement of the pantograph as the train went under a signal bridge. The real problem might not be the road bridges, but the metal signal bridges and those would be a real mess to fix.
They got it wrong. They make it sound like the reason for the reduced speed between New York and Washington is cracked rails and rotting ties. Bull. The tracks are fine. Like I cited before, using as my source Railway Age, it's incompatible catenary. I wonder whom this reporter talked to. Amtrak needs better PR if they are going to win public and congressional support for this planned growth and passage of the HSRIA. I think people would understand and feel comfortable with the main problem being that Amtrak needs to "upgrade the wires." Telling people that the tracks are falling apart might cause quite a different reaction. I wonder what else we read in the newspaper that is similarly inaccurate. Scary.
You don't happen to have a citation for that Railway Age article do you?
Actually, I found a citation myself, thanks to a link that Todd put up:
http://www.railwayage.com/may00/acela.html
This article states that it is indeed the lack of constant tension caternary that holds down speed NY - DC. Appartently the highest speed tests happened in RI, with the new caternary.
I had cited issue, author, page numbers, etc. in a previous post. Glad you found an online version.
sometimes i ride the five line. last week as i rode a set of R-26/28 and noticed the railfan window of an R-21/22 on two of the cars in both ends. could it be the original R-21/22? they are overhauled so you won't see any fans, also they could have change the storm doors. or they kept some parts of the R-21/22 and held them over for R-26/28 because they are similar. but i still ponder if that is what i think it is.
The R-21/22s have not been in service since late 1987. A couple of R-26/28s have transplanted R-22 type doors. As for survivors, a number of working 21/22s are still on the property working as the Revenue Collector and Signal Dolly.
-Stef
There's an R-38 coupled to the train in place of an IRT work motor at 207th St Yard! So we have an R-38 Pair, the signal dolly, an R-22 on the same train.
-Stef
I'd love to have a picture of that! :-)
Sure thing. If I had a zoom lens perhaps I could photograph them from the 207th Street Bridge, which is where I saw them. Usually the dolly is at the north end of the yard near the 215th Street Subway Station.
-Stef
[Usually the dolly is at the north end of the yard near the 215th Street Subway Station.]
That's where I took a picture of the train. The picture is on my Transit Pictures 9A page. (Both motors were R21/22 cars.)
Having worked that train recently, I can tell you they are a piece of crap. Those cars will be replaced with the single 33 cars, when they come over to the mainline. The R38s are not permanant, the train was likely doing B division workloads and the B division cars were added for reliability, or one car was out for inspection. Both cars have cast iron brake shoes and one even has a 2CY compressor, bearing knocks and all in place of the D4. I wonder if the single car dolly would run better in its place.
Sounds like it's time to phase them out. One of the cars was out and the 38 was working as a sub. Those 22 work motors really didn't get any real upgrading, did they? Hell, you may as well assign passenger cars at random to the dolly.
-Stef
Thats basically what was used, at least for the B division. The redbirds could not be used. Any cars on hand were usually shoppers or TTs and didn't have dual division trip cock devices. Most of the time, the train remained in the yard and signals used a truck. The two regulars were 37371 and 37307, with G7460 as a spare. The spare is probably stripped by now to keep the other two in service, if you will call it that.
Oh? G7420 Must have been what I spotted the other day working with the R-38 pair. I recognized the black stripes on the cars which 37307 and 37371 do not have.
-Stef
Speaking of R-21 and R-22's, are their any differences at all between the two car types? I have read that they are completely identical, but if anyone knows of any subtle changes between the two orders it would be greatly appreciated.
According to Ed Davis, Sr. in his "They Moved Millions" ...
"A near immediate follow up to the R-21 cars was the fleet of R-22s delivered from late 1957 thru 1958 ... The major change in the R-22 as compared to the R-21 was a simplified straphanger or handhold for standees which closely resembled that used on the old R1-9 classes."
Ed's book contains a load of detail for an inexpensive price. The only draw back is the quality of the photos (the photos in the original version are a little clearer), but I'm happy that I bought one directly from him just the same, i.e. he autographed his photo inside.
BTW, the TA Museum doesn't carry it, probally because of a couple of comments he made about the TA operation in the 60s/70s ... truthful but unkind.
Mr t__:^)
I saw his book at Caboose Hobbies in Denver. There's even a photo of a T train of R-32s with an Astoria destination sign. My intention was to buy a copy from him directly, but kept putting it off. Right now, Big Ed is unable to send out any more copies because he doesn't have access to them. I wrote to him the other day, BTW, and sent along best wishes from the entire gang on Subtalk.
IIRC, the cab doors are hinged on the opposite end on R-22s as opposed to the R-21s. I also believe the R-22s came from the factory with headlights.
Thanks!
They were virtually identical to other with the exception being that the R-21's cab door was inverted. Rather than having the cab door face the storm door, it hinges away from it like the R-62/62A. I can also recall the R-21 making a certain whining noise as it accelerated.
-Stef
Thanks!
Could you explain to me what a "Signal Dolly" is? My wife's uncle, who was a retired motorman-instructor based at Queensboro Plaza Station on the N told me once, but that was years ago, and he passed away a few years ago.
The signal dolly, if I recall correctly, can deliver supplies to various yards, in addition, the car is used for testing the signal system on various NYC Subway Lines.
-Stef
Anybody got car numbers so we folks can go
r22 spotting?? (or atleast for the r22 window)
Number Plate # 7477
I know one of the cars that has the R-21 storm door is 7773. I forgot the other one.
--Mark
7821 and 7875 are the others. I was on 7875 the other day as it was running on the 4 due to the Lex Av General Order that was in effect.
-Stef
I know of two in service with R22 storm doors:
7773 and 7875
Another question.
Could it be possible that some of the R21/22 side door panels could have been recycled and used on the R36WF cars (those whose windows on the doors don't line up with the windows)?
On the 7 it appears as the WF R36's carry side doors
of ORIGINAL R36 schemes as well as some resembling
current R26/28/29/33 doors..
Car 7773 has had an R-21/22 end door for ages.
In addition to the VIP Acela Run tomorrow, it is the 9000th day since WMATA trains started rolling (March 27, 1976). They haven't operated 9000 days though.
How many days have they not run since 3/27/96?
Weekends until some point, I don't know when. Do you want me to find out???
Don't worry about it, you basically answered my question. Have there been days when the whole system has been down?
I just clicked on cnn.com to get an update on the latest elections news. Odd, I thought, the lead story concerned a bombing in Sri Lanka, there was other stuff about Russian politics and a Louisiana prison hostage-taking, but zip about Gore vs. Bush. Then I looked at the date and time to see when the page had been updated - and saw that it was from December 19, 1999!
So, if you ever think that SubTalk's a bit slow, just remember that things could be much worse :-)
?? I just checked, and it is updated to the minute with election news and stats all over the place.
Yes - depends on how your cache clears. Certain levels of a certain Microsoft browser have cache comparison problems.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another Microsoft "undocumented feature"!
Rumor has it that SEPTA's Holiday Trolley will once again grace the rails of part of the Route 23 between Noble Street and Snyder Avenue. It did not run last year due to construction adjacent to the line, but the culprit (Loews Hotel) is allegedly one of the sponsors of the operation this year. It is slated to start on 11/24 and run through the holiday season. PCC's will be used out of Elmwood Depot. One potential problem is construction work on the Girard Avenue bridge over I-76, where wire is down but rails are in. A couple of barriers will need to be moved and cars will probably have to be pushed across the bridge until the wire can be restrung.
This is a great time of year for such events at public operations, steam outfits, fire trucks & trolley museums, like Branford where you can get hot cocoa & cookies after you ride.
I'll be off to see Miracle on 34th St, i.e. the REAL Santa in early December ... hot chestnunt, sidewalk Santas, store windows all dressed up ... a good excuse to take a ride on the LIRR to Manhattan.
Mr t__:^)
And I don't mean the presidential election.
Pardon me if this is in a FAQ list someplace, but what IS the plan for the Manhattan Bridge next year? What will be the new routes of the N, R, D, B, Q, W et al?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't know whether you've just come in. If so, forgive me if there is unintended brashness. But that is probably the single most discussed issue on this board.
The bottom line to the answer is a qualified "I don't know". But the general speculattion goes something like this:
B--Bedford Pk. Blvd, Bx to 34th St, Mnhtn via 6th Av "express" (chuckle)
D--205 St, Bx to 34th St, Mnhtn via 6th Av "express" (see above)
N--Ditmars Blvd, Qns to Stillwell Ave, Bkln (or possibly cut back to previous stop when they renovate Stillwell) via Broadway local
Q--Lexington Ave, Mnhtn (I guess) to Stillwell Av, Bkln via Broadway express and variantly local and express on the Brighton line.
R--71 Av, Qns to 95th St. Brooklyn via Broadway local
W--Ditmars Blvd or Queens Plaza, Qns to Stillwell (or a station before), Bkln via Broadway express and West End.
:)Andrew
I've heard the Q will terminate at 57th St.-7th Ave. Lexington Ave. is a bi-level station, with no means of switching trains between there and 57th St.
OK. I was just guessing.
:)Andrew
You're not alone.
[Lexington Ave. is a bi-level station, with no means of switching trains between there and 57th St.]
Actually, Lex/63 is a 2-level, 4-track station. Two tracks are in service and two are hidden behind (on the north side of) the walls of the station. The tracks on the north side connect to the Broadway line, and there's a crossover between the two tracks north of 57th Street.
What I say should happen (south end):
(W) or (B) 57th/7th - CI, B'wy-4av EXP, West End LCL
(N) Astoria - CI, B'wy-4av EXP, Sea Beach LCL
<Q> Astoria - Brighton Bch, EXP all the way
(Q) 57th/7th - CI, B'wy-Brighton LCL all the way*
(R) No change
* - (Q) is Broadway express on weekends
Broadway Express also means via bridge
Now, can anyone give me a solid reason why 2 Brighton lines need the bridge, as is in the official plan?
The answer to your question would be severe overcrowding on the Q express. What you describe was the situation pre-Chrystie: half of the Brighton trains going via tunnel (M and QT) and half (Q) express via bridge. The crush overloading of the Q was horrendous. All that was missing were Tokyo-style professional pushers. The overcrowding at that time would make your E look empty. Post-Chrystie, 3/4 of the service went via bridge (D and QB) and 1/4 (QJ, later M) via tunnel. That eased the horrible overcrowding. Since the '60s, I believe that there has been an even stronger shift to mid-town as the destination for riders. Furthermore, I believe that ridership statistics on the Brighton in comparison with those of the Sea Beach would be compelling for sending both Brighton services over the bridge.
Obviously you've never seen the mass exodus of downtown-seeking riders off of D/Q trains onto M/N and R trains. I'm sure a Brighton/tunnel route would serve many riders well.
At least that's just a cross-platform transfer. I believe that the ideal would be to have 3/4 midtown and 1/4 downtown on the Brighton line, like it was post-Chrystie and before the closing of one-half of the Manhattan Bridge. If both sides of the Manhattan Bridge were open, I hope and suspect that the 3/4 + 1/4 situation would be restored. In that situation, and with the 63rd St. connector open, if it was up to me the Q would provide express service all the way, Brighton-Broadway-Jamaica, the D would provide local service on the Brighton, express on 6th Av., CPW, and Concourse, and the M or Z would run local on the Brighton during rush hours.
I think it would make sense to run M up 6th avenue QB local on rush hours.
Arti
With both sides of the MB open and with enough B division equipment, I would like to see local service on Broadway Brooklyn to midtown. One of the Nassau St. services should go through to the Brighton as a local, though, with the above assumptions. If my idea of running the Q all the way out to Jamaica as an express would be feasible, then I believe it would be preferable to run the Q as Brighton express and the D as Brighton local. Two such popular services might even result in the restoration of weekend expresses on the Brighton line.
Perhaps Z to Brighton and M to Midtown rh.
Arti
yewsterday am around 1030 I saw a work train on H2 track at Canal. It was heading away from the N/R stairway side towards the J stairway side of the platform.
Maybe they actually expect to run trains there next year. The next big question is--for how long (before the bridge will be closed to all trains.)-
relax--I am not asking the question!!
I transferred between the 6 and the J there last night. It's looking really nice down there compared to a year or two ago :). There's covers on the 3rd rail for the most part. I guess they're seriously hoping on having it ready for 2001.
-Shawn
A short while back I saw the rails on H2 were shiny. I guess they do run stuff down there.
Man, looking the wrong way, gets hit in head by #2 train.
THAT'LL TEACH YOU
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't understand, he couldn't hear the train coming?
What I don't understand is that no-one told him to look out. There were tons of people on the platform at that hour.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe since everybody would have been somewhat behind him, it would be hard to tell from an angle how far out the guy's head was. You would have to pay close attention from where you are standing to notice such a thing, and I doubt anyone was paying attention to him.
>>> What I don't understand is that no-one told him to look out. <<<
New Yorkers do not want to become involved.
Tom
Maybe he was deaf?
He probably ran up the stairs and either didn't know or forgot about the different express-local configuration of the platforms at Penn Station, and figured the local was to the right on the same platform and the express was to the left. When he went to see if the train was coming from the normal direction you would expect a train to be coming from at a four-track island platform station -- Wham!
How he failed to see the headlights approaching, I don't know, but this is the only explanation that makes sense to me.
I, too, get a little bit confused at that platform. I sometimes run for a train on the platform, trying to go uptown, but instead go downtown, or vice versa. They should have signs hanging over the stairs and facing the elevator door saying which way is uptown and which is downtown.
There are signs above the platform edge, but you're right - there should be signs at a right angle to the tracks. There used to be such signs on the center platform at 59th St., with "Uptown Express" above "Downtown Express" and arrows pointing to the appropriate track.
I could see myself in such a scenario: hello, Redbirds - BONK!!
..walkman anyone?
..just occured to me that I WAS THERE..
See No Bump. Hear No Bump. Take No Bump.
EXCEDRIN HEADACHE #2 !!
Darwin award winner ?
Bill "Newkirk"
And of course because of this guys' stupidity, the motorman got taken out of service, goes to Jay St. to pee in the cup, gets to see the TA "doctor" the next morning, goes to labor relations, and gets "rewarded" by having his hours changed and getting to work on some smelly platform for 8 hours a day till the TA feels like finishing the investigation.
As well as congestion pricing on bridge/tunnel tolls.
IT'S ABOUT TIME
Peace,
ANDEE
Will this be the first step in a regional fare card?
I doubt it. That would take way too much political ish to get a regional card implemented across all agencies.
The Metrocard is already accepted on the Royal Island and Bronx private bus companies.
[The Metrocard is already accepted on the Royal Island and Bronx private bus companies.]
How about the Frankfurter Ave shuttle ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Queens private busses, Green, Jamaica, and Beeline have too! the Metro card. Does Nassau or Suffolk bus companies accept the Metrocard?
Bee Line is Westchester County, and they don't take Metrocard. In fact, they're not even an MTA agency. Liberty Lines is the contract operator for Westchester County, and they are also a DOT contractor in the Bronx.
One or two Liberty (BxM) buses go to Westchester, those accept Metrocard, but the BxM4C does not.
-Hank
(I doubt it. That would take way too much political ish to get a regional card implemented across all agencies. )
If New Jersey stops ripping off New York through the Port Authority, all kinds of things might be politically and fiscally possible.
Heck, ow that the bond act is dead, they could raise the peak hour subway fare to $2.00, equal to PATH, and use it to fund the TWU raises, freeing other money for the capital plan. Perhaps off peak fares could be cut.
The Vampire State might stop diverting transportation money to more politically powerful constituents.
In the next administration, you might get tolls on the free East River Bridges.
Something might get built.
"In the next administration, you might get tolls on the free East River Bridges."
The free bridges are operated by DOT, not MTA/TBTA. Jurisdiction over the bridges would have to transfer for this to happen. I don't know how difficult that would be, though.
Just try to put toll plazas on the Manhattan or Brooklyn Bridges.
There is no room to place them !!!!
Three could probably be installed in each direction on the Brooklyn side, with some property acquisition, and greatly sacrificing roadway capacity. In addition, I believe all the TBTA bridges feed directly into limited-access highways, somewhat controlling the congestion from the toll plazas with minimal spillage onto local streets. Congestion from toll plazas on the DOT bridges would render local streets impassible for miles (which they do without a toll plaza, anyway!). With any perspective other than revenue to fund transit projects, it's a bad idea.
Again, High-Speed EZPass Gantry Readers. No barriers necessary, and simple enforcement.
-Hank
So the government wants to keep tabs on even more people I see.
The reason to put tolls on the bridges is to pay back all the money it is taking to rebuild them. Money is fungible. Since this horribly expensive rebuilding has started, the city has floated a mountain of debt, and has cut its aid to the Transit Authority to balance it. Pay for the bridges with tolls (retrospectively) and more city money would be available for real transit (and road) improvments.
While I generally favor funding transit over road projects, I
despise the idea of putting toll barriers on the remaining
free east river bridges. What have studies shown? Are most
of the trips crossing these bridges by non-city residents (e.g.
LongIslanders). Seems to me most of it is local traffic.
Perhaps to discourage vehicular trips into Manhattan, the city
should institute a program of random ticketing. Cars will be
randomly picked and issued a summons for an offense that is
not being committed. You may appeal and a small percentage will
be randomly dismissed. That's more or less how the PVB operates
now anyway.
Wow. And people think that girl arrested in DC had her rights violated. And Salaam thinks that Guiliani goes overboard.
-Hank
(While I generally favor funding transit over road projects, I
despise the idea of putting toll barriers on the remaining
free east river bridges. What have studies shown?)
An unreleased study has shown that the big beneficiary of the free bridges are through traffic and people with a deal that gives them a guaranteed free parking space: city and state officials with reserved parking on the street, and a few other swells. A guy on my block is a city bureaucrat who managed to get himself a sticker. He has an extra car (more competition for scarce off-street spaces here) and drives in every day, rather than take the subway. And unlike my wife's employer and many others, the City doesn't pay for your Metrocard.
It is simply impossible for everyone who might want to drive to Manhattan to do so. Some method must be used to decide who gets this scarce and valuable privilege.
I recommend the capitalist method, since a socialist alternative (an affordable subway or Staten Island ferry ride) is available. Toll everything, and limit Manhattan to those willing to pay (along with emergency vehicles and trucks making deliveries at night, who would be free). The poor would benefit -- they're on the subway anyway. Manhattan residents and workers would benefit -- less congestion, less air pollution. The rich driving in would benefit -- less traffic, and they could afford the toll. My friend with the parking sticker would lose, but if you argue long enough you probably could convince him it was fair.
As it is, we have made a non-decision to ration street space in Manhattan in the manner of the old Soviet Union -- by queue. The traffic will get worse and worse until enough people can't stand it that no one else drives in. There is even a formal policy of not allowing more off-street parking -- you can drive in for free, and double park or drive around until a space becomes available, but no one can build more off-street parking for your. This policy does, in the end, limit driving to Manhattan, but it also reduces the quality of life in Manhattan, increases the cost of deliveries, and traps emergency vehicles.
Finally, the free bridges are not free. They were not paid for long ago. They are having to be rebuilt, and the cost of that rebuilding is diverting money from transit improvments.
As it is, we have made a non-decision to ration street space in Manhattan in the manner of the old Soviet Union -- by queue.
I'm not sure if this qite hold up beause there is no state imposed limit on Parking spaces. There is just no more places to build them and many new parking lots would be cost prohibitive. In this case it is a capitalist problem because new parking facilities cost too much and they are pushed out by more profitable enterprises. If there is a shortage and there is no way to increase production I believe that rationing by queues is the ideal method because the most motovated/clever people will get a unit of the good. I am not sure if capitalism believes it, but I think that the motovated/clever should be rewarded.
No, there is room for parking spaces in Manhattan. New buildings are built all the time with smaller parking garages than they would have in other places. And there are one level parking lots (although not that many) when they could have more.
In fact, parking spaces are limited by municipal ordinance.
(In fact, parking spaces are limited by municipal ordinance.)
Porkie is right. Under the NYC zoning resolution, no public parking garages are permitted in Manhattan community boards one to eight, from the Battery to the Upper East Side and Upper West Side. You have to get a special permit, which is almost impossible to get, and involves as much paperwork, delay and litigation as the Second Avenue Subway. The amount of parking buildings are permitted to provide for their own occupants is minimal.
This goes back to early clean air act days, the early 1970s. The federal government pushed the city to ban additional parking to stop people from driving in, and toll the bridges with tolls set high enough to keep pollution and congestion tolerable. But the city was in a freefall then, and public officials drive, but they get parking. So the parking restriction was added to the zoning, but the tolls were not.
Selfish expedience leads to stupid results.
Anybody know if there are similar restrictions on new parking in other cities? I am thinking of DC and SF off the top of my head.
Personally I think they are a great idea!
>>> Anybody know if there are similar restrictions on new parking in other cities? <<<
In the early 80s when Los Angeles was first flirting with the idea of rapid transit, laws were changed to permit high rise office buildings without enough off street parking for all employees. Downtown employers had their arms twisted to discontinue free employee parking, and in its place provide the subsidization of employee public transit commuting. Local governments (city and county) stopped free employee parking downtown and provided a pay raise equal to 70% of the monthly parking rate in the former free lots. The idea was to encourage car pools, since if two employees shared one car, each paid 50% of the monthly parking, and pocketed the other 20% as a raise. Last year, the largest former county employee parking lot was sold to the Catholic Church as the site of a new cathedral which is now under construction. There does not appear to be any new parking being provided for this cathedral, but it is close to the downtown performing arts center which has a great deal of parking space not usually used on Sunday mornings.
Tom
More common are laws requiring businesses and developers to provide off-street parking.
My take? Let the market decide.
I can think of a couple easy steps that'll help address Manhattan's traffic problems:
1) Vastly reduce free parking for government employees. Only those who can demonstrate that their jobs require emergency access to vehicles should be free spots. And I'll bet that precious few will qualify.
2) Cut back on livery cab ("black car") service for big shots. Check and see the number of Lincoln Town Cars lined up outside major office buildings any weekday evening, and you'll see what I mean. Who knows, having to take transit with the hoi polloi actually might be a useful experience for some big shots.
Larry, first I think you are taking a personal gripe about what
has to be a handful of workers who have been handed some special
privs and extrapolating it incorrectly to a general population.
I asked if you knew of any data indicating who uses the free
bridges vs the toll crossings into Manhattan. That's slightly
different from who the "beneficiaries" are. It is my impression
that the free crossings tend to be used more by those in lower
income strata and local commercial traffic such as deliveries
and contractors, and one other major category: taxis and limos.
It has also been my observation that affluent drivers from
the suburbs prefer the toll crossings, either because of the
perception that they will be less crowded because of the toll
discouragement factor, or because they generally feed directly
off major highways and thus avoid those dangerous local streets!
I believe that instead of pursuing a driver-hostile policy towards
reducing the problem of Manhattan congestion, the city should
attempt to create a more balanced solution. This would include
increased incentives for businesses to relocate to the boroughs,
better subway service (let's face it, rush hour conditions are
atrocious because transit planners engineered a ridership increase
{with farecard incentives} but simultaneously engineered a decrease
in capacity thanks to the great fleet neutering), and completion
of route 495, the cross-midtown expressway.
Tolls at the entrances to the city should be raised but discounts
should be extended to city residents who would pay increased
vehicle registration fees. As for Long Island, pay the fee
increase or erect toll barriers on the LIE, GCP/NS and SS at
the city line (heck, traffic is dead stop there anyway during
rush hour, so why not pay your toll why your wait?)
...and completion
of route 495, the cross-midtown expressway.
FINALLY! Someone else on this board that believes in a balanced transportation solution for the city and realizes that highways aren't necessarily disruptive.
I though I was the only proponent of the Lower Manhattan and Mid-manhattan Expressway projects. It's nice to know I'm not alone.
(I asked if you knew of any data indicating who uses the free
bridges vs the toll crossings into Manhattan. That's slightly
different from who the "beneficiaries" are.)
Fourteen percent of those entering Manhattan in an average weekday have a city sticker that lets them park on the street in no parking zones. That's a significant share.
14% That is a high number. Now, is that 14% over the course
of the day, or 14% of peak hour crossings?
Anyway, if those 14% are contributing to congestion on the
entryways to Manhattan, wouldn't it be easier to remove their
special perks than to inconvenience the other 86%?
So have you been tempted to mail a copy of this unreleased study off to the Daily News? I'd think they would find it interesting!!
No such jurisdictional transfer would be necessary. Any bridge owner can toll their crossings if they want. The most likely secnario will involve EZPass gantries, no stopping would be necessary.
-Hank
There will always be toll takers because you can't force every car/truck/bus to have EZ Pass !!!
It's called 'video enforcement', same as they do currently at EZPass tolls. They'll get 90% of the cheats.
-Hank
I still say that you cannot force everyone to have EZ Pass. It is 100% illegal. Say one of your friends from Califoria (or some other far away place) comes to visit. They want to go to use one of those bridges, what do they do? They don't have EZ Pass. Go through and pay a fine?
You can't force them, no. But if they want to use that bridge, they either have what they need to pay the toll, or they pay a fine.
Just like you NEED a token or MetroCard for the subway, you need EZPass to cross the Brooklyn Bridge. That's why you need to provide your plate number when you get an EZPass. If you use a non-MTA crossing, they can match your plate to your account.
-Hank
Ummmmm ... as nice as this is, you've ALWAYS had to pay to get on any form of mass transit. And there are token booths/MVMs just before the fare gate at about 95% of the possible entry points.
To follow your analogy, you'd need E-Z Pass vending stations just prior to the E-Z Pass scanners on every bridge, tunnel and Thruway entrance.
Uh-uh. Gotta have at least one cash lane. Of course, if that lane backed up while everyone else whizzed through the E-Z Pass lanes, users would get the idea pretty quick. As has consistently happened when E-Z Pass was rolled out ... on the Thruway, in the tunnels, and most recently on the Jersey Turnpike (or is it the Garden State Parkway? I can never keep them straight).
As to your point below ... do you REALLY think that drivers inform the E-Z Pass folks when they get a new car (i.e. new plates) and simply move it from one car to the next? My only curiosity is how easy it is to find sticky-backed Velcro to fasten it to the new windscreen.
That's why you need to provide your plate number when you get an EZPass. If you use a non-MTA crossing, they can match your plate to your account.
My only curiosity is how easy it is to find sticky-backed Velcro to fasten it to the new windscreen.
It's available at almost any fabric or craft store.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's also available for free from the E-Z Pass people.
And it's plastic velcro, not fabric velcro.
It's simple. Either you have EZPass, or you use an alternative. Just as there is no law forceing token booths to accept pennies as payment, a toll authority can select their method of payment. Either you agree to it, or you don't travel. There WILL be tolls on the East River bridges within the next 10 years, and it'll be EZPass tolls, or a toll plus a penalty for using the bridge without.
-Hank
The only problem with imposing tolls on the East River bridges is the construction of the toll plazas that would have to go along with them, which would naturally lead someone to file an EPA lawsuit, claiming idling cars at the plazas will increase the pollution levels of the surrounding areas.
I thought we already discussed the fact that there will be no toll plazas?
You can try to have no toll plazas, but here comes another lawsuit from people/commercial vehicles just passing through the area that do not have access to EZ Pass and have no way to ante up the money to cross.
Pernoally, I think there should be tolls on the bridges, but the collection problem remains the biggest hurdle to implementation.
Ban trucks from the 'free' crossings, which should be done regardless of toll implementaion (Obvious exceptions for high/wide loads).
-Hank
A logistical nightmare, especially for Brooklyn.
Because of the Holland Tunnel fire back in the 1940s, trucks carrying hazardous cargo are banned from using tunnels. To get into Manhattan, they have to use the GW Bridge from New Jersey. Banning trucks from the Manny B, Willie B and Queensboro would put all the truck traffic onto the Triborough, since the Queens Midtown and Battery connections are out. From the Triborough, all Brooklyn-bound traffic would then head down the BQE, making that road even worse than it is now.
You can try to have no toll plazas, but here comes another lawsuit from people/commercial vehicles just passing through the area that do not have access to EZ Pass and have no way to ante up the money to cross.
Personally, I think there should be tolls on the bridges, but coming up with a collection system that can serve all vehicles quickly and effectively remains the biggest hurdle to implementation.
>>>There WILL be tolls on the East River bridges within the next 10 years, ...<<<
They've been saying this since at least 1970. I'll believe it when I see it.
Peace,
ANDEE
But if they want to use that bridge, they either have what they need to pay the toll, or they pay a fine. Just like you NEED a token or MetroCard for the subway, you need EZPass to cross the Brooklyn Bridge.
You seem to forget 1 thing. Where do you get a token or Metrocard? At the point of entry !!!
Where do you get an EZPASS when you need one? Nowhere near the point of entry !!!.
Just imagine the future, no token agents (just customer service agents who don't handle money), and the MVM machine keeps spiting out your $20 bill. What will you do?
No EZPass means no crossing the bridge. It's awfully simple. Just like you can't use the HOV lanes on the LIE and BQE without it. It's perfectly legal. You can get an EZPass in a week by phone.
-Hank
Even less- fill out the web site form on Monday have the pass on Wednesday... I just did it.
That's for Jersey. The New York side didn't work when I got mine.
-Hank
. Just like you can't use the HOV lanes on the LIE and BQE without it. It's perfectly legal.
But you are still on the same road !!!!
You still have the problems of visitors to the area. What do they do?
How would you react if you went to Boston or some other city and all of a sudden you see a sign saying "Automated Fare Collection only. All others pay an extra $25 fine" ???
What happens when there is an accident on the "free" bridge and you are directed to use the EZPASS bridge? Does everyone get though for free? Do you sit in traffic for hours waiting?
Also I am not a lawyer but would it be legal to do that ?
THere are no free bridges in this scenario. Your choice in case of an accident is pay the fine, or wait.
As to out-of-towners, if they expect us to follow their traffic signs....
Oh, learn HTML or don't use it.
-Hank
Sorry about the typo, but they do happen !!!!
I still say that making a bridge or tunnel for only 1 type of payment would be illegal. One other point, what whould you do if the police had to close the highway and everybody was forced to use the EZPASS bridge/tunnel?
Are you assuming that EZPASS would not bill anyone during that period?
They can't force you onto a bridge. And it's not illegal. It has been done in California. Stop being absurd. You can only use a metrocard or token on the subway. That is the only form of payment accepted. And just like EZPass, you must pay in advance. Doesn't matter where.
-Hank
Again - Forgetting busses - You can get your Metrocard or token at the point of entry (to the subway) !! You cannot get EZPASS at the entry to the bridge.
However - Polically, I don't think they will ever install them on the Manhattan, Brooklyn, or Williamsburg Bridges. There would be such an outcry.
But you can pay cash on the bus, albeit with exact change only! No token or Metrocard necessary!
Just go a little further - Then you can pay cash at the bridge, then you need a toll plaza, then you nees the space which you don't have !!
It'll get donw within the next 2 mayoral administrations. There already is a pressing need for them, just to maintain the bridges in their current states. How much longer do you think the Brooklyn Bridge can continue to carry traffic, period?
-Hank
1 - The eviornmentalists will delay it forever.
2 - They will undergo a 20 year rebuiling project just like the Manhattan bridge.
Environmentalists won't have a toe to stand on when it comes to installing the gantry, which is as simple as the lane lights on the LIE.
How many times do you think it can be rebuilt? It's already been rebulilt at least twice, and is now undergoing an emergency road deck replacement. And you can't replace the main suspension cables (which are what will ultimately cause the bridge to fail)
-Hank
They can maintain them from the current highway budget. Why build new roads if you can't maintain the ones you have got already.
(One other point, what whould you do if the police had to close the highway and everybody was forced to use the EZPASS bridge/tunnel?)
That's a good point. I guess if they were to do it and, say, the Queens-Midtown Tunnel closed down, they'd have to make the QB Bridge free.
The free situation is absurd. The free crossings carry many more vehicles than the toll crossings, especially off peak. People are driving out of their way to avoid tolls, adding to traffic.
One thought, if a subway line is closed for whatever emergency, you loose, no free bus etc. Why advocate for the differenciation here?
Arti
(One thought, if a subway line is closed for whatever emergency, you loose, no free bus etc. Why advocate for the differenciation here?)
That's true, but if you have the fare for one line you have the fare for another, and there is always a machine that takes cash. His point is if you limit one crossing to EZ-pass, and sent the cash people to the other crossing, they may be out of luck if the crossing that accepts cash is shut down.
If one line is closed, they supply a bus instead. Didn't they do that when the Franklin Shuttle was being rebuilt?
We were talking about emerencies not sheduled GOs.
Arti
"We were talking about emerencies not sheduled GOs."
I don't know about how New York handles the emergency "bustitution" of subway lines, but CTA has operated buses almost every time an L line was out of service, even when the failure was sudden. I don't know how they do it, but they have had buses out on the street, stopping only at the affected stations, within half an hour of the disruption.
It makes it clear why Ls are used instead of relying totally on buses when you see how many buses the CTA has to use in continuous relay to substitute for an L line. And Chicago is no New York when it comes to rapid trainsit ridership!
In Manhattan it would be there by default, all avenues with subway have bus service, probably the same with boroughs, but if you had used the transfer already it'll be another $1.50.
Arti
(I still say that you cannot force everyone to have EZ Pass. It is 100% illegal. Say one of your friends from Califoria (or some other far away place) comes to visit. They want to go to use one of those bridges, what do they do? They don't have EZ Pass. Go through and pay a fine?)
Use one of the TBTA crossings, which already have toll plazas. The one thing we would need is another tunnel, from the Navy Yard area to Lower Manhattan, with 14'4" clearance. Signage would point non-EZ-Pass people to the toll plazas
In the Toronto area there is a toll highway that uses high-speed sensors and cameras, with no toll plazas or barriers. When cars pass the sensor-equipped area, those with EZ-Pass-type passes are billed that way. Others have their license plates photographed, their address is then looked up in DMV records and they are billed by mail, at a slightly higher rate.
Now surely a few foreign-registered vehicles can get by without being billed, but I think they have access to the records of most US states and all Canadian provinces. Would a similar system work here? Would it be legal?
That would create a brisk market for temporary license plate covers.
Also, many people in northeastern US cities drive unregistered cars with phony plates.
(That would create a brisk market for temporary license plate covers.
Also, many people in northeastern US cities drive unregistered cars with phony plates.)
Such people could get away with things once, twice, or a few times. Eventually, however, they could get staked out and caught if the penalties are high enough. In some other countries, remember, they don't even collect transit fares. You don't want to be caught without proof you paid, however.
In some other countries, remember, they don't even collect transit fares. You don't want to be caught without proof you paid, however.
What do you mean some countries? This is what's done in a number of transit systems in the US! Practically every light rail line (like the HBLR).
It's done that way on Denver's light rail. If you don't have a valid ticket when a roving fare inspector asks you to show it, you're in deep doo-doo.
Newark City Subway is the same way...though it seems the inspectors as of lately have been lazy, and only hang around the inbound platform at Penn Station. Occasionally I see them at Broad Street outbound, but usually they're in Penn.
Plate covers are illegal in NY, NJ, and PA.
-Hank
But they are sold, none the less.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sold, yes. But the disclaimer says 'check local laws...' Just like radar detectors.
-Hank
Another common tactic is to bend the plate up at an angle so it can't be read. If stopped, driver can just say he hit a planter and hadn't realized the plate was bent.
There's a whole other thread (not for SubTalk) on reducing the radar profile of one's car by angling the radiator and plate (large reflective metal surfaces) so that you get more time to see the speed trap. Only true gearheads do this stuff, but one reason that Vettes are popular among hotrodders (Chevy V8s aside) is that they have a very, very low radar profile ... like 400', as opposed to almost a mile for a semi.
Also those black nose covers you always are not to keep the car clean, they are radar absorbant. I don't know how radar detectors became illegal. The police are zapping your body and your vehicle with radiation. Should should have a right to be aware of what waves are being sent through your body. These laws require a court challenge. I'd bet you could win.
On the other hand. I saw once for sale a little device that could activate radar detectors up to 3/4 of a mile away. It was useful for getting that semi off your back bumper.
The best defence againse the fuzz is universal adhereance to the headlight system to warn your fellow motorists.
"The best defence againse the fuzz is universal adhereance to the headlight system to warn your fellow motorists."
I know someone who was given a ticket for doing this... "obstruction of justice" or something. She's a nun, to boot. Doesn't stop me, though.
It's actually a law agaist 'dazzling headlights', that is, flashing them causes distraction to other motorists. Theoretically, it could be extended to reckless endangerment if it results in a collision.
-Hank
Radar detectors are illegal only in CT and VA, IIRC. In NY (and NJ IIRC), they are illegal only in vehicles in excess of 4 tons.
-Hank
Radar detectors are illegal only in CT and VA
They're now legal in Connecticut.
Plate covers are illegal in NY, NJ, and PA.
Every once in a while I see a police car with one on its plate. I assume this is done as a joke...
With the way EZPass enforcement works, they can nail you with a partial plate. THey can match the 2-3 digits they catch with the make/model/color of the vehicle, and extrapolate the possibilities. If they narrow it down enough, what are the chances of two blue Ford Tauruses with the first 3 digits in the plate being AS3? If you have an account, they just charge it, assuming the tag was not read. If not, then you're assesed a penalty in addition to the toll.
-Hank
My wife got a parking ticket from Newark last month. Her car has never been in Newark.
It's a common problem. My wife's Mustang - registered in North Carolina, with a personalized plate - was allegedly issued a parking ticket in Salt Lake City, Utah in early October, when she was in the hospital in New Jersey and the car was in our garage here. This apparently happened because the VIN was used to identify the car, not the license plate, and the year identifier of the VIN was entered incorrectly. Hers is a '94, the vehicle intended to be cited is a '95. The Salt Lake PD was quite apologetic once they tracked down the error.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not saying they don't make mistakes, just that it's doable. The EZPass people have a 'score' to make before they can mail a violation notice.
-Hank
My Illinois-licensed car got a parking ticket in NYC for expired New York State registration.
Also, many people in northeastern US cities drive unregistered cars with phony plates.
It's been estimated that as many as 10% of the private motor vehicles in NYC have phony plates. In some 'hoods, especially in Brooklyn and the Bronx, that figure probably is three times greater. Rumor has it that fake plates and a forged windshield registration sticker can be purchased for about $1,000.
Are there that many stolen cars being driven around in NYC or is there some other reason?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are there that many stolen cars being driven around in NYC or is there some other reason?
To avoid paying registration and insurance costs.
Registration costs aren't so bad, it probably costs more to get fake stickers and plates. Insurance however, is.
Are there that many stolen cars being driven around in NYC or is there some other reason?
Most of the people who use false registrations do so to avoid having to get car insurance. Some of them also may be unable to register their cars legitimately because of unpaid parking tickets.
Also, many people in northeastern US cities drive unregistered cars with phony plates.
A risky propostion, though quite commomplace as I noted elsewhere. About ten years ago, the brother-in-law of a co-worker got a fake license plate validation sticker for his car when the original sticker expired. He lived in Boston, where parking is scarce, and had accumulated a slew of parking tickets, so many that he was unable to renew his car registration without paying them. To save a few hundred dollars in tickets and late charges, he paid about fifty bucks for a fake sticker. He figured that if he got caught, it wouldn't be too terrible an offense.
Big mistake. He indeed did get caught, and to his great surprise and dismay, found himself facing felony charges for forgery of an official government document (i.e. the sticker). He spent a couple of days in jail before his family could post a substantial cash bond and incurred thousands of dollars in legal fees. Eventually, the matter was pled down to a minor charge carrying a fine and probation, but it was a costly experience in more ways than one.
...To save a few hundred dollars in tickets and late charges, he paid about fifty bucks for a fake sticker...
In California people now STEAL stickers directly off license plates. (One reason why NY's system of stickers inside the windshield is better, though the damn things are too big.) In my 20-odd years of owning cars in California (even though I live in NYC -- don't ask), I've had two stickers stolen off my plates. The DMV is used to it, and will reissue a sticker with a small amount of hassle.
That's interesting. In Maryland the plate stickers have a glue that works once. Put it on and it never comes off in one piece again. Our tags are forever, Our '94 still has the same tag it has had since we took it home.
Every few years the MVA puts a little reminder in with the new sticker to take a razor blade and take off the 7 or 8 stickers from the prior years so the new one will stick to the plate correctly. When we do it, the old stickers come off in 3 or 4 pieces.
There's a little story about stickers. When Maryland first went to stickers, a man, not wanting to loose them, (we used to put a sticker on both front and back tags) stuck them in a safe place - his refrigerator. When he went to put them on the car, he sheepishly had to call the MVA a request a new set. Couldn't ge 'em off. He had the only refridgerator in Maryland licensed to be on the highway.
That's interesting. In Maryland the plate stickers have a glue that works once. Put it on and it never comes off in one piece again. Our tags are forever, Our '94 still has the same tag it has had since we took it home.
The CA ones are pretty sticky too, but a determined thief can get em with a sharp knife. Registration fees for expensive new cars in CA are now more than $1,000/year, so there's a financial incentive.
I've taken off quarter-inch-thick piles of stickers from cars with the CA old "black and gold" plates (rare and valuable) that had every sticker since 1964 on 'em.
Uhhhh ... lessee ... transit topic: Now that I'm fully back in NY from SF, I'm already missing the Muni Metro tunnels, and watching the streetcars (old Boeings & new Italian Bredas) convert to ATC from operator control as they enter the tunnels.
The CA ones are pretty sticky too, but a determined thief can get em with a sharp knife. Registration fees for expensive new cars in CA are now more than $1,000/year, so there's a financial incentive.
In New York, registration fees are low but there's still rampant use of false registrations. Auto insurance is required before anyone can register a vehicle, so there's a strong financial incentive to use false registrations.
Penna tags have a sticker but sticker theft is very common in the Phila area mainly due to the 'requirement' for car insurance to register a vehicle. In Phila it's estimated that 1/3 of the private cars on the road have no insurance!
When the police cracked down on plates a few years back there was lots of backlash from the 'inner city' politicos, ministers, etc that the poor couldn't afford insurance and this was the only way that they could drive to work, etc. Not to mention that the crackdown was in a large drug area, it didn't seem that too many 'poor' people were trying to get to 'work' when they were pulled over (the operation usually kicked into high gear after 9 PM or so).
Not only are stickers scraped off plates, the plates themselves are often cut with tinshears, etc. You will see many such damaged plates in this area.
Penna refused to act, calling this a Phila problem, until this year. Last month, the state introduced a new system for cars registered in Phila only which will have a sticker in the rear window instead of on the plate. The sticker will have the plate number on it to deter theft (why the smaller stickers couldn't have this, since they have serial numbers, is beyond me). The new Penna tags also have the sticker block on the upper left instead of in lower corners, which is also supposed to deter snipping. Of course, now the complaints are that Phila cars will be instantly recognizable, prompting 'profiling' in the suburbs, and sticker theft will move to the suburbs.
why the smaller stickers couldn't have this, since they have serial numbers, is beyond me
They could... North Carolina does it that way, has for the last several years. They're printed by laser printer at the same time the registration card is printed.
The "rear window" approach isn't very smart, though - convertibles run with their tops down much of the time, so it's not visible. And I agree, the whole state should do it the same way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Front windshield is the way to go.
NY and NJ do it this way.
I see some NJ plates with stickers, the car still has a window sticker. Why I don't know (The NJ plates have two sticker boxes).
NJ now has alternate year inspection. The plate sticker indicates that the registration was renewed for the year that the inspection is not performed. The windshield sticker indicates the inspection was done.
also date of inspection may not be the same month as the reg expires
At most a car could be unregistered for 11 months and even then it only works once.
Stickers are just plain stupid. New Jersey just implimented them and they look like crap. As long as you need to get inspected and as long as you need to show registration to pass inspection an inspection sticker serves the same function.
When the registration is for a different period of time than the inspection, and the way people forget that their inspections and registrations are expiring, there is a need for both.
-Hank
In New York, at least, it's possible to register from out-of-state (i.e., by mail). It's not possible to have the car inspected out-of-state. Other states generally won't complain about a car that's properly registered in New York but has an expired inspection sticker, and the NYSDMV will provide on request a temporary ten-day (IIRC) inspection permit so someone returning to the state can have a bit of time to get the car inspected.
North Carolina has the same situation. There are also quite a number of states - 28 or 29, I believe, that don't HAVE state inspections. The east coast is in the minority by requiring them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Its hard to believe that 29 states don't require even an emmissions check. I would rather see all states have imspection than having to mount proof of registration on your plates. You should only have to proove registration when you're pulled over.
Actually, only about a dozen states have an emissions check. The others are safety only. And even some of the states that do check emissions only do it in parts of the state - North Carolina only checks emissions in eleven of its 100 counties, for example (although it's going to spread to another dozen or so counties, including Franklin County [where I have my home] over the next five years).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where did I get the erronoius impression that this country had clean air laws? Jeez, I thought that jury rigging your car (or getting your mechanic to do it) to pass emmissions was becomming a national past time. I usually don't like laws and regulations, but not even having basic safety checks in 30 states is unfathomable.
not even having basic safety checks in 30 states is unfathomable.
Actually, it's really not an issue with passenger cars. There has been no statistically significant (and yes, I know - lies, damned lies, and statistics) correlation between safety inspections and motor vehicle safety in the private owner arena. The vast majority of us prefer to keep our vehicles safe, and those that can't afford to make the necessary repairs in the first place don't take their vehicles through inspection anyway, they just get a forged sticker.
Commercial vehicles are another story, especially when the owner is a corporation rather than the person driving the vehicle. Saving money comes ahead of safety when it isn't your neck on the line.
As a side note, I've seen lots of abuse of the inspection system on the part of the privately-run inspection stations. About half of it is on the order of "you need to fix this before we can pass it", the other half is "grease my palm and we'll overlook that little problem", with a few cases of "pull it in for your sticker, we're not going to look at anything" thrown in for good measure. Back in '79 my wife took her car in with cord showing on two tires, a hole in the muffler, broken parking brake, and a burned out light, expecting them to find the problems, tell her about them, and give her an estimate for fixing everything (which, providing it was reasonable, she was prepared to accept and tell them "do it"). Instead, the cashier pulled out a pre-signed inspection report, put a new sticker on the windshield, and sent my wife on her way (the licensed inspector wasn't even there). So much for safety. (The next day I took the car elsewhere and had the repairs made; we also reported the shop to the state licensing office, which investigated and eventually suspended the inspection station license. But license suspension, at the time, was very rare. Those of you who remember the Wappingers Falls, NY area at that time may remember Peelor's Firestone Tire Service - that was the inspection station in question. They are long out of business.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The reason for the concentration of emission inspection requirements in the northeast (and the Pacific coast) has entirely to do with the concentration of automobiles in the region, which is related entirely to population (of course)
-Hank
Yes, of course. And it's centered on the urban areas in those states where only part of the state has emissions testing. (North Carolina has finally realized that most of the people who live in rural Franklin County work in urban Wake County, so emissions testing will soon be expanded there. Guess I'll need to change my registration address to our property in Horse Shoe [bisected by the Henderson-Transylvania county line]).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
bisected by the Henderson-Transylvania county line
Transylvania COUNTY. Does the guy who runs it come out during the day or is he the kind of guy who sleeps through most of the day?
Don't you meen Pennsylvania?
No, Transylvania. Get yourself a map of North Carolina. There's no way you can typo Pennsylvania that way.
-Hank
That was a joke from a past Simpson's halloween special. I was hoping Pigs would catch it. Mr. Bruns was a vampire and he invited them to his house in Pennsylvania
Unfortunately, I haven't seen every Treehouse. Seems whenever I tune in to a Treehouse episode, it's the one with 3D Homer. "Hmm, this probably cost a lot of money, I shouldn't just stand here!" (Scratches ass)
-Hank
The quote was. "I feel like I'm wasting (alot of?) money just standing here." (proceeds to scratch ass and burp)
I didn't think I had it right...
-Hank
Penna tags have a sticker but sticker theft is very common in the Phila area mainly due to the 'requirement' for car insurance to register a vehicle. In Phila it's estimated that 1/3 of the private cars on the road have no insurance!
While I'm certainly not condoning sticker theft, or driving without insurance for that matter, it seems to me that the insurance companies have to bear part of the blame, thanks to their "redlining" practice of charging far higher rates in urban areas.
Insurance companies base their rates on claim experience. Claims are more frequent in urban areas, so insurance costs more there. It's not "redlining" in the same sense as mortgage redlining was years ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Insurance companies base their rates on claim experience. Claims are more frequent in urban areas, so insurance costs more there. It's not "redlining" in the same sense as mortgage redlining was years ago.
Both situations actually are about the same. Mortgage lenders used to point out that default rates were higher in cities. Statistics were quite clear on that point. In response, they either refused to write loans in inncer-city areas or made loans on less-favorable terms without regard to a borrower's personal circumstances. In other words, you could have a high income and a 750 FICO score, but you'd probably be turned away or at least charged a higher rate if you wanted a mortgage loan in a "redlined" area. Mortgage lenders might have been able to get away with the practice if they had limited themselves to charging slightly higher rates for inner-city loans, but they went too far and made these loans impossible or very expensive to get.
Much the same is now happening with car insurance. Yes, there are more claims in cities, due to higher theft rates and, to some extent, to city residents' greater propensity to sue for damages. These differences might support modestly higher rates. But no, the insurers go hog-wild and charge city residents rates which, so I've heard, can be twice those charged suburbanities with similar risk profiles. If you live in, say, Brooklyn or the Bronx, and have a clear driving record and a strong credit rating*, you'll probably pay as much as a suburban resident with a poor claims history, a string of moving violations, and a wretched credit rating.
* = interestingly, it's been shown through actuarial studies that a poor credit rating is very strongly correlated with high insurance-claims risk.
I must admit that I've wondered about why the HUGE difference in rates between North Carolina and New Jersey. We keep our cars registered at our North Carolina address because insurance costs about 60% less there. Of course, up in NJ I lock the car, set the alarm, and still wonder if it will be there in the morning; in NC I still leave the keys in the ignition. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The differance is because NJ has 1000 people and probably 1000 cars per square mile while NC probably has at least 1/2 that rate. Just like a gas, a higher car pressure means more collisions. Why do you think we drove 70's cars for so long? We hever had to worry about collision or theft insurance.
You ain't been to Raleigh lately. Traffic there is just as bad as North Jersey or Staten Island, maybe worse. And rates in Raleigh are about the same as they are out in Franklin County.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The best way to avoid anyone stealing your sticker in California (as I have been doing) is to affix the sticker to the plate as it's supposed to be done, then take a brand new X-Acto knife blade and score it a few times. That way no thief will ever get it all off. They also usually give up when they try to peel it and get just a tiny piece. (This was recommended to me by a CHP officer.)
I think the license plate stickers in Illinois are prescored.
THe semester sticker on my college ID left the word 'VOID' stuck to the card, and the sticker thus had a clear area that read 'VOID'
-Hank
What if *I* came to visit in my vehicle, which has a "TCA" transponder for the toll roads here in southern California? I wonder if it would work on the "E-Z-Pass" installations around NYC???
It DOES work on the "Fastrak" lanes on the bridges in the San Francisco area -- I go through them when I'm up there, get a "Valid Fastrak" notice on the video display in the toll lane, and NEVER get billed for it on my monthly statements!!!
That's where hi-energy electro-magnetic jammers come in.
The PA wants to encourage drivers to use Mass Transit by raising the PATH fare? What type of logic are they using? The bridges should subsudize a cheap PATH fare. Make the standard crossing $5, but keep PATH at $1. They don't want people to use transit, they just want more money to spend on useless pork projects. Hey, maybe they can build a tram from Hoboken to Downtown.
The bridges will still subsidize a cheap PATH fare. Raising PATH to $1.50 for people who buy round-trips on farecards is quite reasonable, especially if bridge and tunnel tolls will go up even more at the same time. I think that's quite an enticement to use transit.
It would be MORE of an enticement if PATH stayed at $1. The best part about PATH is that its easy to use for everybody. If you are a commuter, buy a farecard. If your a tourist, you stick a dollar bill in the turnstyle. Everyone pays the same fare, nobody gets preferental treatment. Port Authroity Transport in general shoud be cheaper because the PA already commits highway robbery with tolls and taxes and it at least should make some service a bargian.
This proposed fare hike is nothing more than monopoly price gouging. Someone should open a competing bridge or tunnel.
Your arguments today border on the absurd. No, wait. They crossed the border with the 'litter to feed the homeless'.
Private companies can't build anything without the permission of the municipalities they intend to operate in. All the PA bridges are in desperate need of redecking. The Holland Tunnel toll plaza needs a serious renovation (traffic managemment-wise) PATH needs new cars, and some serious maintainance as well. Path fares haven't risen since the late 80s, and have been in need of a cost-comparative increase for at least the last 5 years. Bridge tolls need to go up just to cover their own increasing maintainance costs. Salaries for the workers in all PA jobs have increased in the last 10 years, just as the cost of gas has risen as well. Not raising fares and tolls is a bad decision to make.
-Hank
I would take PATH from the Manhattan Mall to the WTC Concourse, since it's less expensive to ride PATH than the subway. I think it might be quicker than the N and R, too, especially since it seems like a long time between trains on the Broadway line.
33-JSQ train to Pavonia/Newport, HOB-WTC to World Trade Center.
Someone should open a competing bridge or tunnel.
You try and do it !! You will be dead before the use of the bridge or tunnel gets used.
Feasability studies - 5 years
Enviornmental studies - 10 years
Lawsuits - 10 years
Financing - 10 years
And you haven't started construction yet !!
Construction 15 years
And on and on it goes !!!
Something's wrong in America when people just can't build things anymore. Back in the day you bullzode the houses, send the police to club any protesters, fill in a wetland, pay workers 1$ a day and consider yourself lucky in less than 100 people died on the job. You can't argue that it wasn't an effictive way of building things. Today we have reached the opposite extreme, a happy medium is needed soon.
Would it be possible to build our re-country from scratch with today's regulations and studies and lawsuilt and labout laws?
Who's land will you steal?
How much damage to the land, water etc are you willing to do?
How much noise will you subject people to?
Better yet, let the other people on Subtalk get a bulldozer and knock you house down !! What would you say then? Something on the line of "I'LL SUE YOU?"
You're more mentally damaged than Salaam! I mean, your posts about littering to feed the homeless was one thing. Your curbside shopping expose was incredible. But this? This is just plain stupidity. Lets just bulldoze your house, undercompensate you for it, and use PCB-containing oil to lubricate the machinery used to construct our bridge, and we won't have any kind of safety equipment, so you can expect a large number of deaths during construction. You can also expect some labor strikes for higher pay.
-Hank
Between 1926 and 1968, this wouldn't sound the least bit ridiculous, especially if you add, "and we'll make sure that whatever we build has no provision for mass transit." You should know this, as a daily BQE-rider!
Actually, I use the Belt and Van Wyck in the morning, and Woodhaven/Cross Bay Blvd and the Belt in the evening. If I use the BQE, I usually wind up in traffic from McGuineess/Humbolt all the way to the Battery Tunnel.
-Hank
True, though I'm surprised the Van Wyck is appreciably better. The analogy is the same.
Why do you always mistake my observations for proposals. I was pointing out that we have gone from laise fair construction to over regulation where nothing gets done. We need to find something in between. Bridges and subways should not not take decades to build.
Well in this day and age, the U.S. who calls itself a "superpower" can't build new subways and public works projects is a cryin' shame.
It has to do with with the extreme individualism that is working against any new "public" works. You have special interests, enviro-freaks, NIMBY's, and lawyers, all wanting to make money. If we got all these people out of the way, then America could see a new age of building. But this stagnation, makes the U.S appear downright silly to European democracies, as well as developing countries like China.
Hypothetically speaking, if NYC was in a more "socialist" county like China, Japan, or Singapore, there would be a Second ave subway, LIRR connection to Grand Central, and new 4 track tunnel to replace the Manhattan bridge, and other solutions to the commuter crunch. Sure, you would get thrown in jail for vagrancy or trying to stop the government, but hey, there would be more transit!
You know, when you did mention socialist solutions, I wasn't about to respond criticizing you, because I know what socialism is.
Apparently, you do not. You have the same level of fascism as your communist buddies have, as evidenced by your comment about being thrown in jail to stop the government.
I'm sorry, but in America, the government works for the people, not vice versa. If the government works against the people, then it must be reformed. We don't need you kind making policy. It's a good thing losers like you are shunned by our political system.
Ironically, if you take out the people wanting to make money, there would be no reason to have public works projects. Where would the people go? They can't make money at their job, so they would have no reason to use the new infrastructure. Money's what makes the world go 'round, building will happen when someone sees that they can make a profit somewhere. While I support mas transit projects where they are at, I do not want to give up my right to speak out agnist the government just so I can railfan more often.
>>> Sure, you would get thrown in jail for vagrancy or trying to stop the government, but hey, there would be more transit! <<<
That sounds like a call for a leader who would "make the trains run on time". Most of us with a sense of history would rather do without the additional transit on those terms.
Tom
Of course in places like China, where you don't have the bull****, public works projects usually get done in a few years.
-Environment:overrated, needs of the many more important
-Lawsuits:For personal interest, against the will of the people
Blah, blah, blah.
My attitude is just get some new crossings and subways built, ALREADY!
And replace the Manhattan bridge, with a four track tunnel. If I was in charge, we'd get a new tunnel built in 2 to 4 years!
-Environment:overrated, needs of the many more important
Bullshit. I'm sure you would like to live in a world where there is no oxygen, or natural food or clean water just because you believe that your public works projects are more important.
Man can live with a poor transit infrastructure. NO ONE can live with a destroyed environment. But you have that love affair with Communist China, which is destroying the Yangtze River, is exempt from the Kyoto Protocol and will probably be the biggest contributor to global warming over the next half century.
-Lawsuits:For personal interest, against the will of the people
What people? If it weren't for lawsuits then anybody would be able to screw you over without any legal retribution. While I will agree with you that measures need to be taken to reduce frivolous law suits, courts exist for a reason: So that people's rights and the law can be defended.
If I was in charge, we'd get a new tunnel built in 2 to 4 years!
If you, or someone of your ilk were in charge, I'd join the revolutionary militia organized to kill you. It's a good thing you will never come to power. America needs you as much as we need another Stalin. Or as you call him: The Greatest Man in History.
Oh, right. PCB and asbestos lawsuits were only for the guy who won, not protecting the rest of us from these harmful carcinogens.
-Hank
Some lawsuits (like the ones you've mentioned) are important and very justified. But I do think we've hit the extreme, people will sue for just about anything (like being injured by a subway door, when THEY were holding the doors).
They can have a variable fare based on how many rides you buy at a time:
1 ride for $1.50
2 for $2.50
5 for $6.00
10 for $10.00
monthly pass for $40
And they should let NJT pass holders ride for half-price (like a Uniticket)
Now here's someone with a smart idea. Yes, I agree. I really think it's sucky that most transit companies around the U.S. sell passes but that multiple ride ticket books, once a staple of transit, now exist almost solely for commuter rail lines. I like the 1/1.50, 2/2.50, 5/6.00, 10/10.00, 40 unlimited. That's good.
I got this idea from Russia. There the subway gets no government funding and so they come up with all sorts of clever ideas to make more money.
If only NYCTA could follow their example...
Are you sure? The fares are not that high AFAIK. Also politically it would hard to believe.
Arti
Or they could just charge $1 like they do now. In my Econ 271 class we learned that discount pricing is just a way for a producer to steal all of the consumer surplus.
In my Econ 271 class we learned that discount pricing is just a way for a producer to steal all of the consumer surplus.
What's your professor been smoking? I want some!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
People value products differently. Some person might be willing to pay $5, another would pay $10. Given a normal demand curve and a price of 5 person A will get exactly what they pay for. The person who would pay 10 revieves a 5 dollar surplus because he only pays 5. Let's take this to the limit. If a producer can instaltly know what a consumer's value of a product is, the producer will charge it and the person will pay it. Although everyone will willingly make the transaction, nobody will recieve any surplus. Sociatial surpuls will remain the same, but it will all go to the producer. Discount pricing implies the company can afford the discount price, but they charge the higher price to capture extra surplus from those w/ higher valuations of the product. I have some power point slides if you want to see them.
OK, I see what your prof is talking about. In my opinion it's a rather far-fetched theory, but my recollection of the economic history I took (never had any pure econ courses) is that economics is all very theoretical and far-fetched anyway. (My specialty was 17th century New England, with my graduate work focusing on the Puritan missionary efforts among the Indians.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well explain this. It irks me why Wendy's charges an outrageous $1.39 for Biggie Fries, or 5pc chicken nuggets in Malls and in NYC, while others charge 99c, mostly in free standing suburban locations.
This policy by Wendy's unfairly discriminates against mass transit minded people, since people who use mass transit shop or work in centers, and pay up to $1.39 while a car driver in the suburbs goes to a free standing Wendy's and pays 99 cents for the SAME thing.
Wendy's in NYC and in most malls just recently upped their prices 20 cents. Considering what little you get in there for your money, the PATH fare hike aint so bad. Lunch will probably cost double what you pay (after fare hike) for PATH. They know they can charge as much as they want for a commodity, as long as people HAVE to use it. This can apply to mass transit too, when there are no alternatives (like the LIRR monopoly on Long Island).
Sometimes though the consumer has a choice and will go elsewhere. The lines at Wendy's seem shorter lately.
I for one will not pay those outrageous prices for chicken feed, ooops, nuggets.
If you hadn't noticed, most fast food chjains in Manhattan charge more than the rest of the chain. Their ads all say 'Prices/participation may vary.' You can choose to pay the higher than advertised prices at any other food place. It's the cost of doing business in Manhattan. McDonalds coupons for 99c stuff have '$1.50 in Manhattan' printed on them.
-Hank
Wendy's used to be just as cheap in the city as in suburban locations. Since the chain loosened up it's franchising rights, this has changed.
This is the same company that has decided not to give Flushing it's business, as it opens up new suburban locations. Of course this will encorage people to use their car more (in the suburbs) than travel in the city with mass transit, because it will cost them more to shop in the city. Seriously, when these places scalp NY'ers of their $$, it's a serious problem. The chains have all the $$, so why is it that smaller businesses offer a better deal in NYC? Clearly, Wendy's is just exploiting NYC because it is busy. The Wendy's in Rockefeller Center (very conviently near the 6th ave IND) charges almost a dollar more for their food, once again hurting people who use mass transit. The cost may be higher to do business in a high rent area, but the volume of many, many commuters from the subway should make up for that. Wendy's sux!
I betcha that Dave Thomas has never been on a subway train!!!
I betcha that Dave Thomas has never been on a subway train!!!
You lose! Wendy's made a commercial - about ten years ago, IIRC - featuring Dave touring the sights of San Francisco, which included him disembarking from a very crowded BART train. (The theme was the crowds of people coming from all over to Wendy's.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh darn! I should have said NYC subway! BTW, I was in Flushing today and saw the former Wendy's location got hit by a summons, because they aren't keeping the sidewalk in front of the store clear (litter, boxes, trash cause bottleneck of people).
Perhaps Dave Thomas is afraid of NYC, not subways!
For one thing it was the franchisee's choice not to reopen in Flushing, not the chain's.
And Dave Thomas did come to New York to plant a tree in honor of the dead.
Your arguments here as intelligent as your anencephalic (hasn't it been a while since I used that word?) as your arguments for failed economicssocialism.
"For one thing it was the franchisee's choice not to reopen in Flushing, not the chain's. "
Then the franchisee is an anti-Flushing bigot. The owner has made a poor business decision and now I have to look at an eyesore everytime I step off the 7 train!
I guess I'm an "insensitive jerk" but i'd rather see Wendy's than a boarded up, delapidated vacant storefront.
It's not a question of profits, since it is right in the middle of a Queens transit hub and will make a profit, it's the "taint", or irrelevent psychological fear because of what happened, as to why Wendy's remains closed.
Damn it that Wendy's should be re-opened!!
Have you ever considered that it might be psychologically impossible for that person to operate at that location ... well again as a Stalinist few dead are of no concern to you, I guess
Arti
What about investing money in a group to buy the store and reopen it?
Or are you waiting for downtown Flushing's stores to be nationalized?
What about investing money in a group to buy the store and reopen it?
John's politico-economic philosophy precludes capitalism-style investment. His financial condition precludes any kind of investment.
He operated a store in Flushing.
Several of his employees were murdered in the store.
For a reason not known to us, he has not reopened.
So you call him an anti-flushing bigot? Give me a break. Maybe you want the store to reopen, but I don't think you are in a position to judge the owner of that store.
What you are saying is bullshit.
A person choosing to go to a fast food restaurant will not travel into the city in order to do so. Conversely, a person in the city will not travel to the suburbs to eat at one. A person will eat at a fast food restaurant located convenient to where they live, work and/or play. Restaurant pricing or conditions will not be the sole arbiters of the location where the person chooses to live, work and play.
Your post assumes either that A: A person will travels a significant distance to eat at Wendy's and B: That the person will cease doing so because of price differential. If A is true, then B would most likely also be true, but A is not true. It may be true in your socialist utopia, but it is not true here in the real world.
The volume won't make up for a $10/sqft difference in the rent between a location in the Bronx and the one in Rock Center.
-Hank
I guess it's just the price you pay for eating in midtown. And I can't afford it. Midtown is for rich people anyway. I do all my eating & shopping in Chinatown and Queens where it's cheap!
Well just to add, it appears McDonald's isn't as much higher in the city, compared to Wendy's. A while ago, a few people here mentioned Wendy's is expensive, and given the recent trend I'd have to agree.
Just think, Dave Thomas looking out the window of a Slant R40. Nahh, I don't think so! :-o
The country boy is afraid of subways!
Just think, Dave Thomas looking out the window of a Slant R40. Nahh, I don't think so! :-o
The country boy is afraid of subways!
Dave Thomas grew up migrating from city to city, large and small. The first Wendy's was in Columbus, Ohio.
The commie boy is afraid of the truth!
Well that was kind of a joke!!
Prices in many urban locations are significantly higher than elsewhere because of significantly higher costs. Without going into specifics, the business I am involved with in North Carolina recently considered expanding to a second location (we decided not to, for a variety of reasons). We were offered store locations in a number of different parts of Raleigh - mega-mall, strip malls, suburban downtown, suburban mall - at annual rents that ranged from $9/sf to $32/sf. Some of the difference is in amenities and inclusions, of course, but even allowing for that the location differences amounted for over a 100% price differential, and the traffic differences aren't going to make that up. The price of our merchandise would have necessarily been higher in the higher priced locations.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you really want to save money (and your arteries) you shoulkd stop eating so much fast food and start cooking at home.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't eat fast food everyday, I know it is bad for one's health. I usually eat chinese food, but when I'm in a mall (the chinese food is soo fake in the mall) I eat fast food and Wendy's is the only place I can stomach.
I have "fast food" (what I call Hamburgers or fries) only once or twice a week, most other times I have noodle or rice. And eat lots of bran in the morning!
And I never eat on the train or bus like so many others unfortunately do, leaving their wrappers (usually Mcdonald's) on the floor of the train, often in corners and in front of the RAILFAN window.
That's not really "stealing" "consumer surplus". (In fact, by your reasoning in another thread, taking something which is there for the taking isn't really stealing at all -- but I don't agree with that so let's not go there).
The assumption that discount pricing absorbs all consumer surplus assumes that the discount is not available to those who value the product most. That's rarely the case (the only example I can quickly think of is an Ivy League education, where the wealthy will pay full price, but the lower and middle classes -- who might otherwise choose a less expensive institution -- will receive financial aid packages), and certainly not the case with transit, where discounts are heavily advertised. I highly value mass transit, but I still search for the best deal.
CG
>>> If a producer can instaltly know what a consumer's value of a product is, the producer will charge it and the person will pay it. <<<
That's great theoretical economics, but the big word is "IF". There is a good reason the most famous economists (Alan Greenspan excepted) are putting forward theories at universities without implementing them in the field. All those neat charts with intersecting lines rely on full knowledge of the circumstances by all parties. This does not happen in real life.
Tom
Have you been braindead for the last 20 years? Have you disregarded history of the last 60 years of publicly subsidized transit?
Keeping the fare artifically low is poor planning. Fares should cover day-to-day operational costs, and capital costs and other one-time expenses should be covered by subsidies. An artifically low fare helped kill the private transit companies. While it certainly won't kill PATH, it isn't harmless. And you will eventually reach a point where drivers will start to bitch about their high tolls further subsidising commuters. There are some of us who MUST drive to work. There's no easy way to go from Staten Island to Queens, especially when my day may not end until 8 or 9pm. It's already 1.5-2 hours to Midtown, and another 1/2 hour to Rego Park.
-Hank
A Port Authority is like a legalized Standard Oil or Microsoft. Everyday millions of car commuters are held up and forced to hand over an absurd some of money to cross a bridge that was paid for years ago. Because the PA is a bi State agency it is answerable only to its self, not the voting public. What does a PA do with this money? They subsudize airports and they build wasteful pork projects like trams and waterfronts. The only thing that PA's did that is socially benificial was provide cheap transit options that got commuters off the roads. PATCO and PATH were shining examples of this. The air poluting car drivers helped pay the way of people who swallowed their suburban pride and took mass transit. Now PATH and PATCO want to take away that encentive. It now costs more to ride than to drive. When I try to encourage people to try and take the train they tell me its more expensive and I can't argue with them. If the NYNJPA cared about the region it would name PATH cheap. But the NYNJPA only cares about filling a bit seceret pit somewhere with money. Furthermore many NJT trips require a change to PATH. A 2$ ride would tip the scales for many to the drive my car side. What we'll see is less people riding NJT and more drivers using the bridges. PATH is obviously trying to set a level of ridership where Marginal Revenue is equal to Marginal Cost.
You need to remember that most people will not use transit as long at the variable costs involved with driving their car is lower than the fare. The the variable costs of most cars is pretty low. Not to mention that when a group travels by car, the costs go way down. If a group uses transit the costs remain fixed. If you have a group of 5 people wanting to go to the City it will be cheaper to drive then to each pay a $2 PATH fare.
And you will eventually reach a point where drivers will start to bitch about their high tolls further subsidising commuters.
Who cares what the drivers say. The NJNYPA is only accountable to its self. NJ and NY hate eachother so much that NY would block any attenpt by NJ to force the PA to lower tolls. After all why should NY pay for airports when NJ commuters can.
There are some of us who MUST drive to work.
Who's fault is that. You chould have found a job that is accessable to transit. You could have planned your life to be in easy reach of transit. You went the way of the car thinking it to be easier and now you seem to be paying the price. You do not deserve any sympathy.
There is more social benifit to people using transit than to people driving. Most people need a car. You can't get all places via transit (although proper long term planning can limit the need 4 a car). Given that everyone will have a car and pay the fixed car prices transit MUST be cheaper than the variable cost of driving. At todays current energy costs, reasonably hi milage and low maintainence cars this variable cost is very low. When someone drives they create costs that are not charged to them, but to society as a whole. They create pollution, they require infrustructure, etc. The government can save some money when a person uses transit instead of driving. At the very least the cost of each ride should be the fare + what the government saves by someone not driving, paid by the government.
WELL SAID!
Given that everyone will have a car and pay the fixed car prices transit MUST be cheaper than the variable cost of driving. At todays current energy costs, reasonably hi milage and low maintainence cars this variable cost is very low. When someone drives they create costs that are not charged to them, but to society as a whole...
There is no way driving is cheaper than taking transit. Accroding to the AAA, the average cost for a vehicle is 35˘ per mile. Someone driving does not create costs to themselves? I could have sworn I paid for my car, insurance, gas, emissions, taxes(tag), mateinance and repair. If I didn't need a car, I would have so much money right now. Here in Atlanta, MARTA estimates it cost 7.5˘ per mile per person. You would need 5 people in your car at all times to match that efficiency. AAA's estimate doesn't include taxes the gov't collects for maintaning roads, etc. MARTA's includes everything. Also, the intangible cost of sitting in traffic costs billions of dollars every year in lost productivity. Reasonably high milage? Ever heard of SUV's?
I don't know if AAA's figures include it, but if you own a car anyway, some things will still have to be paid for, such as insurance.
Other things, like wear will have a marginal cost that decreases as as the amount of use increases. Not to mention that the fixed costs that occur from having a car and not using it will be distributed more evenly per mile.
So basically, the more you drive, the cheaper it is per-mile.
It also works the same for transit.
Did MARTA factor in parking in the per mile cost of transit, and the fact that you may have to drive to the station anyway. I could take the bus completely free, but driving to the station is so much more convenient, not to mention the fact that I get to board at a less crowded station with the car, that the extra cost is worth it.
On Friday I drive the whole way because I will not find parking, and I loathe the bus (not busses in general, just that bus) so much that the extra aggravation and cost of driving to Manhattan (and the time I have to spend sitting around to get a free parking spot) is well worth it.
So basically, the more you drive, the cheaper it is per-mile.
I agree that statement, but most likely you'll be idling in traffic, not driving at a more effiecient cruising highway speed.
I believe that MARTA's cost is only for riding it, not how you get there. Believe it or not, driving to a MARTA station to ride is not really that convenient. The terminal lots are full or close to it by 7am, so it's hard to get a space. The new North Springs station, opening next month(!!!), will have 2,200 spaces, and they project that they will be full as well.
I don't have problems with traffic so much.
The only bad traffic I experience is along the Gowanus from the Prospect merge, and then through Brooklyn Heights since I avoid the BQE, but there I am travelling at normal speed.
A Port Authority is like a legalized Standard Oil or Microsoft. Everyday millions of car commuters are held up and forced to hand over an absurd some of money to cross a bridge that was paid for years ago. Because the PA is a bi State agency it is answerable only to its self, not the voting public. What does a PA do with this money? They subsudize airports and they build wasteful pork projects like trams and waterfronts. The only thing that PA's did that is socially benificial was provide cheap transit options that got commuters off the roads. PATCO and PATH were shining examples of this. The air poluting car drivers helped pay the way of people who swallowed their suburban pride and took mass transit. Now PATH and PATCO want to take away that encentive. It now costs more to ride than to drive. When I try to encourage people to try and take the train they tell me its more expensive and I can't argue with them. If the NYNJPA cared about the region it would name PATH cheap. But the NYNJPA only cares about filling a bit seceret pit somewhere with money. Furthermore many NJT trips require a change to PATH. A 2$ ride would tip the scales for many to the drive my car side. What we'll see is less people riding NJT and more drivers using the bridges. PATH is obviously trying to set a level of ridership where Marginal Revenue is equal to Marginal Cost.
You need to remember that most people will not use transit as long at the variable costs involved with driving their car is lower than the fare. The the variable costs of most cars is pretty low. Not to mention that when a group travels by car, the costs go way down. If a group uses transit the costs remain fixed. If you have a group of 5 people wanting to go to the City it will be cheaper to drive then to each pay a $2 PATH fare.
And you will eventually reach a point where drivers will start to bitch about their high tolls further subsidising commuters.
Who cares what the drivers say. The NJNYPA is only accountable to its self. NJ and NY hate eachother so much that NY would block any attenpt by NJ to force the PA to lower tolls. After all why should NY pay for airports when NJ commuters can.
There are some of us who MUST drive to work.
Who's fault is that. You chould have found a job that is accessable to transit. You could have planned your life to be in easy reach of transit. You went the way of the car thinking it to be easier and now you seem to be paying the price. You do not deserve any sympathy.
There is more social benifit to people using transit than to people driving. Most people need a car. You can't get all places via transit (although proper long term planning can limit the need 4 a car). Given that everyone will have a car and pay the fixed car prices transit MUST be cheaper than the variable cost of driving. At todays current energy costs, reasonably hi milage and low maintainence cars this variable cost is very low. When someone drives they create costs that are not charged to them, but to society as a whole. They create pollution, they require infrustructure, etc. The government can save some money when a person uses transit instead of driving. At the very least the cost of each ride should be the fare + what the government saves by someone not driving, paid by the government.
I like the congestion pricing, but hiking the path fares to $2??????? They better plan some hella service improvements for that type of increase. This just goes to show how much more direct commuter rail service is needed - obviously at 2.00 the PATH wants to price people out of using it to hop across the river from Hoboken.
At $2, path won't need an operational subsidy.
-Hank
Right on! Let's compare PATH with NYCT
Overnight--NYCT 20 minutes all lines except #3. PATH-30 minutes with an around the world line(JSQ-HOB-33rd)
Weekends-NYCT-10 to 15. PATH--NWK to WTC-best is 15 minutes after 9am.before 9 am it is 30 minutes.
Rush Hour- comparable.
IF PATH got rid of the zoo animals and IF they improved service then and only then would it be worth $2. Why pay $2 for one way to NYC when for $2.50 I can get a one-seat ride and no zoo animals. During off peak I can ride NJT round-trip for $3.50 and not $4 if this bad increase goes through.
I do not see PATH improving overnight and weekend service and even less of a chance is the eviction of zoo animals. Already I bypass PATH for NJT Friday and Saturday Night, Saturday and Sunday AM (poor schedule--miss NJT by 5 minutes) as well as late Tuesday night .
Many times on Friday/Saturday Night trains are full of half-breeds playing music so loud the train shakes (and yes- with headphones), the same people swing from the ceiling and walk all over the seats or jump from side to side and the trains are so filthy you'd think PATH borrowed NYCT's black floors. I have complained to PATH's transit police to no avail.Late Tuesday night (And I'm sure the other nights too) it is the same way.
Wow, that sounds pretty bad. I guess there a bad crowd in the HOB/JSQ area. When I went to Newport Centre, the crowd there was kind of wild (this was a Friday afternoon), but the PATH was alright.
I also have experience with these "zoo animals" and "half-breeds". I have seen them mauling hamburgers and chicken wings right under the big blue poster that says "NO EATING". I have seen rowdy ones prepare for the Olympics on the stanchions. I have seen a drunk one shove an empty malt beer bottle in the conductors face, asking him to "properly dispose of it". I have seen one ask another passenger (a female with a not-so-feminine face and short hair] if she "was a man or a woman?" I have seen a bunch of them who were exremely loud and rowdy, making all sorts of anti-white jokes and comments (naturally, nobody did anything - think a bunch of white kids acting the same way, making anti-black jokes would be tolerated?)
Some may consider this a racist post. It isn't. I just don't like riding the train with a bunch of slobs. True, most of them are black, but is that my fault?
Thanks for agreeing. I might add that these people I have experience with are all skin pigments including whites making black racist jokes and white supremists hating all non WASP riders.( WASP= White Anglo Saxon Protestant).
I have also walked out of several PATH trains due to these low lifes.
I think you are right, they need to keep the fare on PATH under the NJT fare from Newark, also under the ferry fare from Hoboken. $1.50 is reasonable, $2.00 is excessive.
Charging $1.50 also would make a future merger of the fare system with Metrocard more feasible. Unfortunately, making the turnstiles accept either Metrocard or the current Quickcard seems not to be possible, because the cards are inserted from opposite directions. If the Quickcard readers were to accept Metrocards, they would have to be fed in in a direction opposite to the arrows printed on the Metrocards, and that would cause mass confusion.
No, they can always install readers with heads on both sides.
WNBC-TV is reporting the Port Authority among other plans is proposing a $2 fare for PATH.(And $7 bridge tolls)
I think that is a mistake and would lead to big ridership drops--why pay $2 each way when you can ride NJT (Off peak) for $3.50 or $5 peak times. For 6th Ave- why pay $2 per ride when you can ride unlimited on the subway.($4,17, or 63).
PATH fares should go up up only to match the subway fares and then rise again everytime subway fares increase.
> I think that is a mistake and would lead to big ridership
> drops--why pay $2 each way when you can ride NJT (Off
> peak) for $3.50 or $5 peak times. For 6th Ave- why pay
> $2 per ride when you can ride unlimited on the subway.
I suspect the local 6th Avenue stops really do not get all that much intra-NYC ridership even though it's cheaper and perhaps more convenient if you want to go from Christopher to 33rd. I bet the big drop (if there ever was any significant local ridership) fell when the free bus-subway transfers came about. Or, maybe the drop-off came about even further back when the intra-city cheaper fare was dropped (not sure when, probably prior to PA involvement).
The PATH is desperately in need of some overcrowding relief. If the increased fare encourages some people to seek alternatives it might not be that bad a deal.
Compare the $2 PATH fare to PATCO, in South Jersey. The PATCO is a lot faster and has nicer trains, but currently costs twice as much and has less destination options. (It's $4.20 r/t on PATCO from the outer NJ stations). It doesn't seem too unfair to jump to $2. Plus, the article I read on the subject in today's NY Times suggests a discount for Quickcard users over the full cash fare.
-Dave
Well I think the $2 fare is fair, because when you use PATH you are crossing state lines, and it generally serves commuters.
Considering LIRR costs a bit over $3, as well MNRR, for the same distance, $2 PATH is still a great deal.
What would be nice though is if PATH would raise the fare to $1.50 and accept Metrocards. Now that would really increase ridership!
I think you might want to increase carrying capicity during the rush and find or create a two-way lure for off peak usage.
I would encourage a DUAL use Express and Semi-express airport to airport service From and to JFK and Newark utilizing P.A.T.H from Newark, Joint use of Sith Ave Local Tracks to 2nd St , joint use of #7 to Hunters Point, Joint use of LIRR to Rocakawy branch to Howard Beach to joint use into Terminal Area. Ship mail and aircargo (FEDEX and UPS ) containers OFF-PEAK only.
Semi-Ezpress
Stops :1)Newark
2) Jersey City
3) Penn Station
4) Grand Central
5) Atlantic Ave {Woodhaven for LIRR connection}
6) JFK Terminals
Express
Newark <-> JFK
Price Express one-way $15.00
Semi-express one-way 10.00 with free transfer to either P.A.T.H or N.Y.C.T.A.
Thats my pipe dream for today.
avid
I wouldn't worry about it. Just like with proposed subway fare increases, they always highball the fare increase and that gets the public scared if not infuriated.
The result is a smaller fare increase and the public breathes a sigh of relief. I think it is a mind game of sorts, twisted psychology.
Bill "Newkirk"
Let's hope you're right.
I noticed yesterday morning..approching 137th st that the yard at 137th st is full of 3's..Question: do they go into service at 137th..96th..or relay back at 96th to 148th??.Anyone know?? thanks.
The sublet-ees at our underground yard
tend to swim into the thick of things
at 96th Street (via the layup track
south of 137).. others have been known
to turn back AT 42/TS and head for 148th..
I often catch a 3 train at the 125th Street Station around 8:10 in the morning. I time my daughter's drop off at the day care center (opens at 8) to allow myself the opportunity to jump on the express
Trains go into service at 137th St during the rush hour and switch over to the express track at 96th Street an run all the way to New Lots Av. In the afternoon, several 3's from NL run to 137th St and layup in the yard for the next morning. This eliminates the wait for passengers at 96th Street.
-Stef
A fireworks display is set to go off when the inagaural run reaches Boston. My guess is they don't want to shoot them off over the tracks, they will probably be shot over the nearby water, by Gillette Headquarters. -Nick
I'll be at South Station at 5pm... hope to see others there. I'll be wearing my WCBS jacket.
I took two slide pictures of that Acela Express this morning around 10AM at Landover Metro Station. I nearly missed that opportunity because I can't find a parking space so that I have to park at the 15-minute waiting area. After taking pictures, I rushed back to my car to see whether I was ticketed. Fortunately I wasn't.
The trainset's two locomotives are 2020 (north side) and 2009 (south side). For those SubTalkers waiting at South Station, you shall see 2020 first.
Chaohwa
Good luck - in New York, the "public" couldn't get anywhere near the train, and Amtrak police were less than friendly to those trying to get photos.
So does in DC. Amtrak police in DC are the toughest I've ever seen. I rather go outside of DC to take pictures.
Chaohwa
I wonder if it could be seen over Northern Boulevard in Woodside. I see many an Amtrak train there.
I mean, if it's going from New York to Boston, it's gotta, right?
Ditto for the Metro North stations on the New Haven main line from New Rochelle on north.
We had luck, Ripta42! After the festivities subsided and press moved away (including a WCBS weatherman known well on here! lol), the public was allowed to go through the train. Quite a festivive crowd too...hundereds of people showed up. I assume many of them were waiting for commuter trains and had nothing better to do, but I'm sure at least a few more railfans had their presence there. I got there with my friend about 2 minutes before the train pulled in...music was playing, and fireworks were shot off on an office building deck above the tracks (safe distance). All in all, a historic event for sure! -Nick
Nice! Then again, Boston is more laid back for the most part :). They probably feared that overzealous railfans would sabotage the train to keep in the station long enough to take several rolls of photos. Either that, or Henry Winkler, who addressed a crowd of VIPs seated in the station, needs more security than Michael Dukakis...
The only fireworks you'll see is from the massive sudden pantograph failure just North of the Mass. Border.
Nuts.
Beat me to it :(
Pelham Bay Park
Bronx
Brooklyn Bridge
Manhattan
(via Express)
238th Street
Bronx
New Lots Avenue
Brooklyn
(via Express)
Main Street
Flushing
Times Square
Manhattan
(via Express)
241st Street
Bronx
New Lots Avenue
Brooklyn
148th St./Lenox Terminal
Manhattan
Flatbush Avenue
Brooklyn
Can't help but notice that the "11" says "Main St-Flushing" with no reference to the borough, ie Queens.
Is that how the R62 rollsigns would show the "7"?
:)Andrew
I wasn't sure. I had seen the picture of the R-62A on the 7 on one of the calendars, but forgot exactly what it said. I can vaguely remember "Flushing" being on there, but not "Queens". Perhaps that was enough.
Posted
Thursday, November 16
7:00 PM
The R-36s have "Main Street Flushing, Queens" on their upper side destination signs. The bulkhead destination signs say, "Main St Flushing".
The (8) and (10) lines would put four lines on the express tracks. Wouldn't it take forever to wait for your train?
8 would probably replace some of the 5's
10 would replace some 6's (The express part is in the Bronx)
>8 would probably replace some of the 5's
>10 would replace some 6's (The express part is in the Bronx)
You have that backwards. Plus both "8" and "10" (as well as "11") would be redesignations of existing train schedules (the outer borough express versions of each)
Posted
Thursday, November 16
7:05 PM
The 8 route simply replaces the diamond 6, and the 10 route replaces the #5 Thru express up White Plains road. No new trains would be added. But the seperate designations create more confusion than they eliminate.
But you don't have to tell the difference between a (6), a <6> a <6>express, a (6)local or a <6>express to 138 St.
True, but you'd have thousands of Lexington Ave. local riders in Manhattan asking "what's an 8 train?". The "8" designation means nothing outside the Bronx, and it's easier to keep a less confusing diamond/circle system do differentiate the 2 routes.
"it's easier to keep a less confusing diamond/circle system (to) differentiate the 2 routes."
I don't necessarily agree. Regular riders will adapt to the new route numbers after a short period of time. For the infrequent rider or tourist, is the 'same route number appearing in a circle or diamond' any less confusing that having to figure out which of several different train numbers goes to your desired stop? I don't think so. Let's face it - both schemes are confusing.
For what it's worth, I would immediately change the current '5' rush hours route to 238 St. to the '10'. The '5' is the Dyre Ave. route - period.
And while I was at it, as soon as sufficient new BMT/IND cars were available, I'd eliminate the multiple 'A' trains to both Lefferts Blvd. and Far Rockaway by taking the logical step of extending every second 'C' train to Far Rockaway, and making Lefferts the full-time 'A' terminal.
Jim (RailBus)
But, the C is not a 24 hour train. I am not sure but I think that the Far Rockaway portion sees more passengers than the Lefferts portion so I think that the C should serve Lefferts Blvd. Remember, the A went to Lefferts and there was a late night shuttle to Far Rock. A couple of years ago, the routing was changed.
Train#1913Mike
The circle/diamond difference doesn't affect tourists/one time riders, because they wouldn't be going to the Bronx. Using a seperate designation is a complete waste of time and money (all those stations would need new signs, as well as the printing of new maps). Why is it so hard to tell the diference between a shape (circle/diamond) then a number (6/10)?
Actually, tourists do go to the Bronx, I assisted a large group of tourists on the <5> looking for the Zoo. Why they were going there during the afternoon rush was beyond me. I could tell they didn't seem to understand the concept of peak-direction express service, so I spent extra time assuring them that the <5> going the other way would stop there.
True, but this is hardly justification to make all these new seperate designations.
I agree completely. The only thing I don't like about the diamond/circle arrangement is the word "express" under the 6, it confuses tourists who think it means it runs express in Manhattan (though it does make it easier to tell where a train came from or is going to).
Well. some tourists might go to Queens on the 7 for a Mets Game or something.
:)Andrew
"all those stations would need new signs"
NYCT could simply cover up the <5> bullets on station signs with <10> (or whatever number) stickers.
"as well as the printing of new maps"
The Transit Authority prints new maps several times each year already.
"Why is it so hard to tell the diference between a shape (circle/diamond) then a number"
Passengers will recognize different route numbers must more instantaneously than they will the difference between a cicle and a diamond. Plus, what happens when the R-142's are running on both '5' routes? There is no circle or diamond designation on the side signs.
Jim (RailBus)
The R142 side signs would simply say "Bronx Thru Express".
My point is that all these changes are completely unecessary. You're advocating solutions to problems which really don't exist.
I didn't say there was a "problem". I'm just throwing my two cents in with what I believe is a better system of route identification. We agree to disagree.
Jim (RailBus)
...every other C to Far Rockaway...
Yeah, the people at the airport don't really need an express to Manhattan anyway, do they. I'll direct anyone with complaints to your front lawn.
I would have to agree here. When possible, it would make the most sense to have the express go the farthest. I believe that nothing should be changed. I don't see why 2 different C terminals is any less confusing than 2 different A terminals (3 if you were to count Rockaway Park peak service).
To me, the whole point of having differnet lettered/numbered lines is to show that a particular route has only one terminal at each end. I think that having two terminals for the (A) is inconsistent with the way other lines are designated. There should be one letter for the train to Lefferts and another one for Far Rockaway. If other lines were named the way the (A) train is, then you would have things like the (3) train to 148 St. and another (3) train to 241 St. Being consistent with the way of naming things has always been one of my pet peeves.
That makes sense, especially if end destination signs become a thing of the past once the last of the Redbirds are retired. Those destination signs do come in handy, make no mistake about that. Right now, on the 5, you know at a glance if a northbound rush hour train is headed for 238th St. or Dyre Ave.
"the people at the airport don't really need an express to Manhattan anyway"
Based on personal observation, I would submit that JFK airport ridership is only a small percentage of A train ridership. But since you brought it up, let's assume NYCT does care about airport passengers. Those riders likely are not regular A train passengers and wouldn't be too familiar with the A routings in Queens. Why confuse them with two A trains, and risk JFK passengers going to Lefferts by mistake?
Hey, this isn't an ironclad proposal. I could live with the C to Lefferts and the A to Far Rockaway. I just think it's silly to have the same train taking two significantly different routes.
Jim (RailBus)
Well if passengers go to Lefferts, the Q10 bus will take them to the airport.
Train#1914Mike
Well if passengers go to Lefferts, the Q10 bus will take them to the airport.
Train#1914Mike
What year did the R-62s first see service?
And what year were the double letters eliminated on the IND and BMT?
I think the latter was 1986, R-62s were already in service on the IRT then, right?
So the two-digit route numbers were an idea that was considered before they decided to go with single-character route designations. Considering that the new R-142s have space for only a single digit for the route number, I think it is extremely unlikely that the two-digit route numbers will ever be used at this point.
As for the two "A" trains, sending the "C" to Lefferts and all the "A" trains to Far Rockaway (except rush-hour specials to Rockaway Park) seems to make more sense. When the "C" stops running in Manhattan, they could call the Lefferts Blvd. shuttle a "C" train, instead of yet another "S". Having all "A" trains go to Howard Beach/JFK will simplify things for tourists when the Howard Beach station is rebuilt for AirTrain.
The double letters were officially eliminated in mid-1985. The first R62's were put in service on the #4 line in the autumn of 1984, spelling the end for the R14's and R15's. The 62A's began service on the #1 in mid 1986, and the 3 in early 87, eliminating the remaining R17/21/22's.
Add my name to list of supporters for the C going to Lefferts and all A trains going to Far Rockaway. All Rockaway Park service should be by the Rock Park Line, either an "S" or maybe back to the "H" that went all the way to Euclid.
:)Andrew
HEY! That's a great idea! (Add my name to the list,too!) That's what I was thinking, except that the MTA must suppy more trains to that line. The C line has very few cars.
I tried putting tables on this board before, but all the cells appeared three screens down since it was a large table I was trying to display. I tried the table with a line break in the HTML after each tag. The thing is that the input box to type your message puts a <BR> tag before each line. Here's my advice: the next time you put a table on this board, make sure all the tags are on one line. Turn the word wrap off on the text editor if you have to. Instead of
<TABLE border=5 cellspacing=0 width=180>
<tr>
<td bgcolor=#000000><FONT SIZE="-7" FACE="Swis721 BT, Helvetica, Arial" COLOR=#FFFFFF>Pelham Bay Park <br>Bronx</FONT></td>
<td rowspan=2 width=30% ALIGN=CENTER><img src="http://www.nycsubway.org/gif/bullets/current/8.gif" alt="8"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td bgcolor=#000000><FONT Size="-7" FACE="Arial" COLOR=#FFFFFF>Brooklyn Bridge <br>Manhattan</FONT></td></tr>
</TABLE>
put
<TABLE border=5 cellspacing=0 width=180><tr><td bgcolor=#000000><FONT SIZE="-7" FACE="Swis721 BT, Helvetica, Arial" COLOR=#FFFFFF>Pelham Bay Park <br>Bronx</FONT></td><td rowspan=2 width=30% ALIGN=CENTER><img src="http://www.nycsubway.org/gif/bullets/current/8.gif" alt="8"></td></tr><tr><td bgcolor=#000000><FONT Size="-7" FACE="Arial" COLOR=#FFFFFF>Brooklyn Bridge<br>Manhattan</FONT></td></tr></TABLE>
It should produce a much more desireable effect.
Oh, and how do you put a piece of HTML code here? Use the < escape sequence in place of each < character. How to put an ampersand when < produces <? Use &.
Thanks alot! I had asked for this info at the end of one of my posts yesterday, and was waiting for it.
F
|TO179th STREET |
Now, if you could make it switch between "Queens Exp" and "To 179th St." the way the R-46 signs do.:-)
I was thinking about that. I guess it would require a gif., but didn't someone on this board once use a code to scroll the text? (or was that a gif. too?). If you can scroll, then you might be able to flash alternating text. (My HTML books don't cover this)
Posted
Friday, November 17
1:30 PM
Here's one I've written using javascript... (Netscape may look weird)
Pelham Bay Park
BronxBrooklyn Bridge
Manhattan
Just for fun...
Roosevelt/N Blvd Exp
Middle Neck Rd-Great Nk
10 Av/42 St
Manhattan
running slant-R110As with R-33 side windows, except the third car in each consist, which will be a Lo-V painted in blue & white World's Fair colors.
:) :) :)
Yer Nuts!
:D Andrew ;)
For a moment, I though that was heypaul.:-)
IIRC wasn't the # 8 used for the Third Avenue IRT in the bronx? I believe it stopped running in the early 70's. The 'EL' was torn down and the 8 was replaced by bus service.
On maps it was listed as "8", but pictures of R-12s running on the structure showed "Shuttle" instead. In addition, "8" was the designation for IRT Trains running to Astoria.
-Stef
Like the MJ and a good portion of the BMT number codes, the "8" train never ran with cars signed up as "8". Who today refers to the Franklin Ave. shuttle as the "S" train?
I believe I've heard here that there's also a number 14 on the rollsigns, and it's in green.
At any rate, let me go on record as saying I'm against there being any two digit numbers. Past 9 you compromise the basic simplicity and recognizability that is such a hallmark of the modern NYC Subway. I mean, that has to be part of the reason they did away with double letters.
:)Andrew
The old BMT number code went all the up to 16. However, not many people were familiar with it, since it was never consistently applied to trains. Even Karl B says people thought 15 was a new route when the R-16s first appeared, since they'd never seen that marking before.
The double letters were done away with because they no longer served any useful purpose by 1985, which was do differentiate the difference between locals and expresses on the original IND. Having numbers above 9 is a completely different thing.
The two times I've seen the R-62A roll sign scrolled, the "12" was in GREEN, not red.
The numbers appeared in the following order:
1
9
2
3
13
----
4
4-diamond
5
5-diamond
6
6-diamond
8
10
12
----
7
7-diamond
11
----
S
It would still be confusing though. This may not be a problem for born and bred railfans like me, but for an average commuter who couldn't care less about trains except those that take him(or her) to where he has to go, this would not be a welcome change. This would leave the 7th avenue line with a whopping six officially named "trains" (1,9, 2, 3, 12, 13) of which at least three (9,3, 13) will not operate at all times (bound to confuse neophyte travellers at odd hours of the day or night). Meanwhile, the Lexington line will have five trains (4,5,6, 8, and 10) involving multiple terminals at both ends (4 and 5 terminals in Brooklyn vary by time of day and the new #5 IIRC will still have two Bronx terminals). The terminal issue is especially significant for long-distance commuters going from into parts of Brooklyn, who may choose between the 7th Ave and Lex. Ave lines depending on what's available at that time of day - i.e., the 5 terminate at Bowling Green at times , so to get to Flatbush one must take the 7th Ave. line's #2 (or 12).
The Flushing line will be less of a prob (by itself) with two trains (the #7 and #11 - not a problem). But remember that most people transfer between lines and trains, and many transfer several times - remembering a smorgasbord of train numbers (and letters) will not make most folks happy.
And I must agree with the point that local and express services that remain entirely on the same route would be less confusing if they shared the same train number.
Sorry , the previous post was intended to to be posted after Chris R16'r reply to Mister K.
I think that the only line which would benefit with a seperate express designation, with minimal confusion is the Flushing line.
I went to Princeton Junction this morning to see the Acela Express. The 11:44 northbound NJT train arrived at 11:46 (ALP-44 pushing Bombardier coaches and cab car) and the Acela Express blew by on track 2 at 11:47 with the NJT train blocking the view. Another railfan and an AP photographer on assignment were also disappointed.
i did see the Acela Epress today. it was in the meadowlands. it was escorted by a photo news chopper. it was not moving a very high rate of speed because it was about to enter the tunnel to new york.
I rode the Far Rockaway line(my home line) to Far Rockaway once b4. However, there is some little yard or a storage track at the last stop. So I saw this Conductor use his key to open one side of a door. Then the Engineer pressed a button or something and the door closed. Can anyone explain what he did?
Usually the Conductor/Engineer opens & closes the single door with his/her key. Sounds like there is some switch/button in the cab if the engineer doesn't get indication ?
Mr t__:^)
On the MU's the engineer can use the conductors controls to close the door.
At Far Rockaway they don't open all the doors >G<.
You can key open a crew door just like on subwway cars from the outside. You can key open ANY panel from the inside but the key must be kept in to keep the panel open. Crew's will key open a panel and hold the door open when they take their key out.
Unlike the subway FRA rules, each door has to have a grab iron and step by the door.
From the article entitled "Giuliani Launching Blitzkreig on Traffic"
in today's Daily Snews:
"Park and ride: On Wednesdays, from next week through Jan. 3, drivers who park at Shea Stadium and board the subway will receive a MetroCard Fun Pass, valued at $4, for each person in the car."
Sounds like a good idea to get some cars out of Manhattan. Of course, if I didn't have an unlimited card, I'd be driving to the train instead of taking the bus on Wednesday...
Bring that same deal to Van Cortlandt!!
A Loyal Van Cortlandt Drive-upper.
OOH! OOH! (to quote Joe E. Ross)
I drive to the subway anyway! I usually go to 179th or Van Wyck Blvd on the F or Main St. on the 7. But I'll go to Shea if I get a free fun pass!
:)Andrew
Now must you use the fun pass the same day or can leave it for when you might actually get more use out of it?
How much does the Shea parking cost?
You have a point - I'm sure it's a standard Fun Pass that can be used any time. I think commuter parking at Shea is $2.50. Has anyone heard more about this? I haven't seen ads anywhere, just that one blurb in the paper.
Excellent idea! Now that will get people off the roads!
How is security Shea ? Will anyone who parks their car at Shea find it when returning later ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Well there a junk yards all around Shea ... so you should be able to find it when you return ... he he he
Mr t__:^)
How would that affect already overcrowded 7?
Arti
I met Acela Express at South Station, Boston -- it arrived early at 5:04pm. I'll write more later.... since I was able to get press credentials and get on-board, I will be doing a report live on WCBS 880 AM at 5:50pm, 8 minutes from now.
OK, just finished my live report on WCBS. A few more details:
The train arrived amidst trumpets, thundering applause, and fireworks. First off was Michael Dukakis, AMTRAK Vice Chair, who like riding trains better than tanks :-) I was able to get on-board with my press pass, and I must say that the interior is magnificent. The first class (2x1 seating) is very generous, and the business class, with 2x2 seating and conference tables is quite ample. The amenities look great.
The train arrived six mintues early, and it was reported to have reached 150 mph for nineteen minutes.
I took many digital pix, and will post them this weekend. And it was great seeing fellow SubTalker Nick there!
Well, if I did the math right, the train made nearly 50 miles (47.5) in 19 minutes.
-Hank
Sounds about right, Hank. Of course, "top speed" is just a headline grabber. The key is maintaining high speed, whether 135, 140, or whatever. For you calculus freaks, it's the area under the velocity curve that counts.
If it was the area under the velocity curve that won, then the Sunset Limited would beat them all, because it goes the greatest distance of any train in this country. I think you mean the area under the velocity curve divided by the travel time, or average speed.
Try that on I-95 at rush hour!
Try that on I-95 at rush hour!
Try that anytime, anywhere !!!
I would recommend that you try it on a speedway first !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm glad the train made it in early, but as many people were complaining about the catenary it is interesting to note that the 150 mph ACELA train had to crawl accross that Metro Noth drawbridge where the catenary gaps over the draw span. I would say that a lack of catenary is definitly a problem.
BUT, the ACELA has a power car on each end. Has Amtrak finally found a way to prevent the HEP outages associated w/ Phaze breaks and draw spans? Did the ACELA train have to slow all the way down for the gap?
FYI the trains do not have to drop their pans to cross that bridge. By watching the shaddow of my AEM-y I saw that the wires just go up up and away until pans max out and stick.
The phase-breaks on the newly electrified line have rather long gaps
with no power (at least 2 train-lengths) These are marked by the
white letters "DS" on a black sign.
There should also be a phaze break signal to tell the engineer if the DS is active.
Todd, heard your report live while driving home from work!
IIRC, there's a transfer passageway between the shuttle and the 4,5,6 line. Was this walkway orignally part of the tunnel back when the IRT was new? The I-beam supports and their placement look like what the other orignal IRT tunnels look like. Also, the walkway is inclined downward little bit, could it have went down on a slope and then make the sharp turn to the right and up to get on the Lex Ave line? Last time I was the NYC, I tried seeing if the walkway was aligned with track 4. I couldn't really tell. I couldn't find anything that looked like the tunnel made a sharp turn to the right, as well. The walkway and station has been changed so much since the opening, it would be neat if the walkway was still evidence of the tunnel.
Yes, see our Shuttle page for more info.
Thanks. You know, being that the shuttle is my favorite line, I've read that page many a time, and I've never noticed that part!
Have you ever gone all the way to the end of the Times Square platform and peered into the tunnel? 1 and 9 trains go right past you, literally a few feet away.
Yes, The first time I went to NYC, before I knew anything about the subway or this site, I did. Actually, I first saw this connection on a 1 train going northbound after getting on at Times Sq. I saw the platform for the shuttle, at the time I didn't know about the shuttle, so I didn't know what it was for. Later on in the week, I was waiting for the shuttle, and saw the 1 trains passing by I figured out that they were connected. Up until I found this site, I thought that the only reason the connection was there was for the shuttle trains to get to maintaince or whatever. In the back of my mind, however, the shuttle platform looked way too much like a tunnel with a platform filled in, so I always wandered if there was more to that station than I could see. When I read the history about it, it all made sense, now it's my favorite line.
And how many times have you tryed the door to the "Knicerbocker Hotel"? On that ramp/walkway before the did the renovations you could where the tracks curved in on the South side (there was a doorway).
Now if you love the Times Sq. Shuttle so much, you must let the BMTman give you a tour of the Franklin Ave. Shuttle ... I'll be it will be a love 'em & leave 'em situation ! The only thing that gets a little scary are the Hippos there ;-)
Mr t
I only found out about the Knickbocker Hotel door after reading about it on Forgotten-NY. I've never seen it in person. I think I was there for the first time after renovations (New Year's when '98 rolled around).
You can get an even better idea by looking out the railfan window on a southbound 2 or 3 train as it approaches that area. You can plainly see where the original ROW veers off to the left.
>>1 and 9 trains go right past you, literally a few feet away.
Quite the place to park a video camera, I tellya!
LOVE that Spot.
Here are a few selected pix of the ACELA EXPRESS arrival at Boston's South Station. This weekend I'll have more time to sort the rest, and send them to our Site Host for posting.
AMTRAK VP Dukakis makes remarks
Engine 2020 on the point
1st class car
Cafe car
Engine 2009 on the end
South Station train board
Nice job with the photos, Todd! It was great to bump into you tonight. -Nick
Thanks for posting, Todd!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Todd-
Heard your enthusiastic report from Boston on WCBS not soon after you arrived there. Fine report! I was on the Triboro Bridge at the time with Hellgate Bridge to my right. What a tremendous rebirth for that great old bridge today!
Great pics... Thanks for posting, Todd!
Nice to see the US finally taking some first steps in catching up to 20th Century rail technology. Better late than never, I suppose.
What a beautiful train... I hope to see many more trains like that throughout the US sometime in my lifetime... Never hurts to dream a little.
-- David
in Chicago!
Nice pictures! I see that South Station has a train info board similar to that at New York's Penn Station, except this one shows arrivals as well as departures, and the one in New York isn't functioning much since the new sign took over.
Thanks so much for the pictures, Todd!
For someone like me, that is probably the closest I will ever get to that train.
I just found a kickass website with a large movie Archive w/ SEPTA, CONRAIL and AMTRAK movies galore. They are 1.5-2 meg mpegs. They crowning jewel is a movie of today's ACELA express run. The Link is http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Amtrak_movies.html Make sure you check out the other movie sites.
Nice movie! It almost sounds as if you are there! Can't wait to see it in person! Any idea on the schedule?
Did you notice the Septa car sway slightly as the Acela sped bye?
Take a close look.
Joe C
Yes it definitely swayed. Good site, too.
Actually, they sway when regular old metroliners pass them. It's a wierd feeling - and a loud noise!
When you are on an amtrak train and another one passes you in the opposite direction, the train sorta sways. Also, I never really noticed the R5 train sway when the amtrak train went by it.
I've never noticed it on the R5 either. Only on the way up to trenton, where the track and the trains are faster.
I finally got my first R-142 ride this AM from Penn Station to Borough Hall. It was car #6320, still sporting its Yankee pinstripes, "Subway Series" banner and Met & Yankee logos. The ride left a favorable impression contrary to the negative posts here. During the ride, the Train Operator gave me a quick orientation. Some of the features I observed were
The ride was smooth and quiet
The train operator has door enable buttons to prevent door opening on the wrong side
The LCD display shows the last station and the distance traveled from that station.
The train operator said that the cab seat is very comfortable.
The only thing I found user 'un-friendly' is that the air brake light is red and goes on when the brakes are released. On the R-44/46, the red light goes out when the brakes are released.
The R-142 #2 train is running? Does anyone have the schedule?
- Lyle Goldman
The R142's no longer have there own schedule.
It is still on its old schedule, or perhaps it was shifted earlier, because I see it within 15 minutes after the old scheduled time every afternoon (on weekdays). The reason I suspect it was shifted earlier was because when it was running on the official schedule it would usually be 45 minutes late. I have not seen one on the 6 for a while, but someone else said one train is running.
The only thing I found user 'un-friendly' is that the air brake light is red and goes on when the
brakes are released. On the R-44/46, the red light goes out when the brakes are released.
Well, it is more "fail-safe" that way, but the light should be
yellow. Years of societal training: red is BAD. Cruising
down the dark tunnels with a red light on the panel is discomforting.
Speaking of brakes, do I understand correctly that instead
of a handbrake these cars have a spring-applied, air-released
"parking" brake?
I decided I had to share some of the transit photos I've taken over the past year.
I have pages up for Philly, Boston, New York, New Jersey and a shots from a Toronto charter.
Let me know what you think
http://www.angelfire.com/geek/rh
I decided I had to share some of the transit photos I've taken over the past year.
I have pages up for Philly, Boston, New York, New Jersey and a shots from a Toronto charter.
Let me know what you think
Click here
Rob, nice pix. Especially enjoyed the Philly PCC/Witt charter shots. When was this charter? I was on one with just the Peter Witt in the Fall of 1999 with RTM. We had a beautiful day too, and I got some nice shots. (I'll post them as soon as I find the time to build my website. Don't hold your breath.) My memories included a slightly surprised, yet helpful motorwoman on the trolley I took from 30th Street to Elmwood Carhouse. She took a moment to realize what I meant when I said I wanted to get of at the Elmwood Depot. "Oh, you have a charter?" "Yeah." I guess not too many people travel via SEPTA trolleys to the carhouse, 'cause most of our members live in the burbs or even farther out and drove in. But I guess enough do that she only looked at me funny for a second. On the charter, I remember the motorman was very conscientious about changing our route number sign on the Witt every time we switched lines. The photos have to be accurate, after all! :o) I'm especially jealous you got to go over the bridge & travel on Girard. We couldn't 'cause of construction.
The Charter was held on Sept 17 by George Metz and the Buckingham Valley Trolley Ass'n. Unfortunately the Girard av bridge was still off limtis to us so the charter had to stay on the subway surface routes and the western part of the 15.
The trip to Elmwood carhouse from 40th street portal on the 36 was not the greatest. While waiting for the car to arrive, a man came over to me and a fellow railfan and asked us for change. When we decided not to open our wallets for him, he persisted and got quite rude. When the car finally came, the driver took my daypass and my friend's daypass and punched them in three different spots (I guess fearing that we would peel off the sticker and reuse the pass). She wasn't so cost concerned with the guy harassing us and let him on free.
That unfortunate incident was the only minor blemish on an otherwise great day though. The SEPTA charter operators were very accomodating and railfan friendly. While we were waiting for the charter to start in Elmwood, they changed the signs on some of the K Cars to routes like 23, 6 and 50 just to amuse us. The photostops were well chosen and a lot of nice folks attended. I can't tell if the destinations were accurate on the route signs knowing very little about Philadelphia. The Witt sign read "Zoo" for most of the charter, but I'm not sure where the zoo is.
If the Fourth Ave. Local is an R, not the first letter F, and the Brighton is a D and Q, not a B, and the Sea Beach is an N, not S, and the West End is a B and M, then why is there a need to have the post-Manhattan-bridge-flip West End be a W, and have possibly two (confusing) types of Q's for the Brighton trains? If the West End was a T in the past, why not make the flip-flop West End a T again, and use the W and Q for the Brighton? That way, there won't be situation that can cause confusion, as between the circle Q and diamond Q on that line.
Mike Rothenberg
re: Circle and Diamond Q on the Brighton Line ....
It works for the #6 and #7 lines, where you have diamond expresses and circle locals. Why do people feel it will not work on the Brighton Line? What's the confusion?
--Mark
It works for the #6 and #7 lines, where you have diamond expresses and circle locals. Why do people feel it will not work on the Brighton Line? What's the confusion?
The #6 and #7 lines never seperate !!
But that proposed Q wouldn't either.
Arti
And what do you call it when one train switches to an express track while the other stays local?
The diamond/circle 6 and 7 are established. There have always been one route serving both express and local along these lines.
It will work after time, but it really will be confusing at first. I'm trying to figure out how people who used the Brighton line back in the day made sure which #1 train went express or local, as both numbers were used to designate both Brighton services. And with no PA's, the conductor couldn't announce which train it was, and with Standards, the trains had NO signs. Perhaps people back then were smarter.
Chances are people observed the marker lights in the olden days and, in the case of the BMT standards, the side route signs. Of course, the Triplexes had them, too.
They're too lazy to order new signs that have "T"; they're trying to use what they have. But I agree, they really should replace the R-68 signs so you could have
2900
on the
Queensboro Plaza
Queens Coney Island
Brooklyn
Now, that's a welcome sight!
Jose
Kind of takes you back in time, doesn't it?
Well they could use decals, at least on the side signs. But why even make that effort when an even lazier option exists.
I suggested this when the plan was first posted here (OK, not "plan" but "ideas"). The problem is that today's cars have no yellow "T" signs. A few have black and white "T" signs with no designation (R32's and R38's). Almost all cars have yellow W signs, making it easier to use this letter.
I agree 100%. This would be a lot less confusing. As for the changes in roll signs or using decals, it seems to me that little investment in money and effort really is involved here. Lessening the confusion for customers would definitely justify the effort.
An article in the Los Angeles Times indicates that an extension of the Wilshire subway line to the West Side is being considered in a preliminary 25 year plan The Times article states that "The plan contains no cost estimates, completion dates or strategies to overcome considerable political obstacles."
This is the route that was supposed to be the first subway line when the planning was done in the early 80s.
Tom
Very true.
I lived in LA for 16 years in the 70's and 80's. The Wilshire subway, it was found, could not be extended as far west as originally desired due to the authorities' concern about explosion hazards in the area of the La Brea Tar Pits. The LA basin was historically a place where oil and gas was pumped (Long Beach and Signal Hill still have active derricks, or at least until recently). Beverly Hills High School has an active oil well next to its football field, and the school district gets yearly royalties for the sale of crude. Pockets of methane gas and the potential for unforeseen deposits caused a change in plans for subway construction at the time.
Has a different routing been found to get around the problem areas? Or is the technology available to evacuate the gas deposits?
Even more importantly, how much political will is there to build the subway? LA has earned a bad reputation for transit - its ridership has actually declined slightly with time. Tutor-Saliba Corp, the contractor on the Metro Red Line, did such a poor job initially that any problems New York had ever had paled in comparison.
Further, La's MTA was sued, successfully, for building rail lines in wealthy, white neighborhoods and allowing bus service to be neglected in poor, minority areas - which is heinous because people in South-Central who lack cars found it nearly impossible to get to work on time with overcrowded buses passing them by. To build new rail lines on the west side will probably require that this be addressed.
I hope writers in LA can bring us up to speed on these developments.
* the only success story is the blue line up to downtown. Even then it fails to connect to the future pasadena blue line!
the red & green lines are total bombs !!
So why not put the rail lines in South Central, if that's where the riers are, instead of places where people aren't using them?
Michalovic
* thats why i said this whole mess is a failure with the exception of some parts of the blue line to downtown!!
That would be logical, but South Cestral LA is so politically disenfranchised that, by the time of the 1991 riots, the neighborhood had not recovered from the 1965 riots. The renewal and investments we've seen in Jamaica, Queens and the Bronx is politically difficult in LA. Segregation is magnified by the vast distances LA covers (470 square miles!) and investment in poor neighborhoods is hard to come by. Some politicians like it that way - and voters in Bel Air don't care much about Watts.
So why not put the rail lines in South Central, if that's where the riders are, instead of places where people aren't using them?
Michalovic
>>> The Wilshire subway, it was found, could not be extended as far west as originally desired due to the authorities' concern about explosion hazards in the area of the La Brea Tar Pits. <<<
Whether or not the subway could have gone through that area or not has not been determined. What stopped the subway from going through the area was a methane explosion in the basement of a store in the area (near 3rd & Fairfax) and seeping methane gas burning on the streets. The fear was that a third rail spark could set off a methane explosion in a subway tunnel. Although the problem was solved for the buildings by ventilating the basements and installing methane detectors, at the time, engineering had not been done for that hazard and there was no budget for additional engineering. The Chicken Littles (who opposed the subway anyway) said there was no safe way to run a subway through the area, and therefore it was rerouted to North Hollywood.
Recently there was a scandal when the Los Angeles Unified School District acquired land and was well along in building a new giant high school on an old oil field without proper survey of the site. Methane was detected seeping into the lower levels of the building. It was determined that a ventilation and detection system could be installed which would make the building safe, but the building was abandoned after millions had been spent, because of the political decision that the School District could not ask parents to send their children to a potential explosion site.
>>> Even more importantly, how much political will is there to build the subway? <<<
At the present time there is no political pressure for additional subways. Those with the political power do not see themselves as subway riders. Voters recently cut off funding for any new subways. The present Red Line is a "Subway to Nowhere" because it does not really go to any large population centers out of the downtown area. I am personally suspicious of the ridership figures provided by the MTA because my personal observations have been that there is extremely light ridership in non rush hours, even when the rides were free. What rush hour traffic there is comes from the elimination of the freeway flyer express buses that ran parallel to the Red Line on the Hollywood Freeway.
>>> Further, La's MTA was sued, successfully, for building rail lines in wealthy, white neighborhoods and allowing bus service to be neglected in poor, minority areas <<<
Actually the suit alleged that the MTA was favoring commuter rail from places as far as sixty miles away (San Bernardino, Oxnard) where the ridership is mostly white and middle class, while letting the bus fleet, which is what the poor minority non automobile owning workers depend on, deteriorate. Both services rely on fare subsidies, but the commuter subsidy is far higher, and the MTA wanted to raise bus fares. The suit alleged racial discrimination, and the settlement required the MTA to purchase a number of new buses, and prohibited the fare raise. The commuter trains run on existing tracks, so it was not building them so much as running them and promoting them at the expense of local bus riders. The large cost overruns of the Red Line were also part of the suit, but not the major part.
>>> - which is heinous because people in South-Central who lack cars found it nearly impossible to get to work on time with overcrowded buses passing them by. To build new rail lines on the west side will probably require that this be addressed. <<<
The housing density in South Central Los Angeles is far too low to support a rail line. The Blue Line is a success because it was on a former ROW, so acquisition costs were low. I have seen a study which draws the conclusion that even the Blue Line is not as efficient as having buses traveling on parallel main streets for severaol miles east and west of the present Blue Line rather than having feeder buses delivering passengers to the Blue Line.
Building a rail line on the West Side as opposed to "to" the West Side would be criticized, but the only place in Los Angeles that would truly support a heavy rail subway is from downtown along the Wilshire corridor with its high rise office buildings to Century City (another high rise business center) and on to Westwood where there is the largest cluster of high rise apartment buildings in Los Angeles and UCLA. That is why Wilshire Boulevard was chosen for the first subway line in the first place.
Tom
Many thanks to Tom for a very detailed and insightful response to my posting. Tom, you straightened out some details that I had not gotten quite right, and the conclusions you reach are well-supported. I look forward to reading more postings from you.
Many voters in LA indeed do not think of themselves as subway riders (nor bus riders, for that matter). Any tradition of mass transit was killed off when the trolley lines were ripped up starting fifty years ago, and there is no tradition now.
New York City's history, its health and its future are intertwined with the subway and commuter rail. Shut down the subway, and New York is dead. On the positive side, New York's density and its subway have made it the US' most energy efficient city (measured by per-capita BTU consumption; in addition, New York has more open space per capita than any other US city. Los Angeles, in contrast, has the least.
Their first priority should be the extension of the Green Line to the
airport. As it is, it is a very pointless line, even more so than
the Red Line. And if they can't build a Wilshire subway, why not build
an el?
Fare beaters nailed in sting.
NOT AN ENTRANCE,EXIT ONLY
Peace,
ANDEE
That is so unfair to leave a gate wide open and then arrest people for walking through. Its like leaving a pile of sterios out on the street and then arresting people for taking them. For sporting events and the Broad St. run SEPTA will often just open the gates at Patison and let people in for Free. (Thinking that a long line will discourage future SEPTA riding to the game so its better just to collect the inbound fare.) I hope a judge throws all those cases out.
Its like leaving a pile of sterios out on the street and then arresting people for taking them.
I suppose with that mentality, you would take anything on the sidewalk that is unattented for a few seconds. A truck driver unloads a lot of stuff, carries some into a store and before he gets back you take it. That's stealing. No ifs, ands, or buts !!!!
I've decided not to respond to the idiot. As I said, he makes Salaams rants look intelligent.
-Hank
I think your right !!
I love how you can explain what I mean in my posts. Perhaps I should have been more clear. An open gate w/ no signs is like stacking a pile of sterios on the sidewalk, leaving them completely unattended and arresting people who take one. Your analogy would be more akin to leaving the gate closed, but unlocked. A closed gate gives some warning that it is wrong to walk through. An unattended open gate says "walk through me".
No, jrf's analagy was absolutely correct. Just because it's there, doesn't mean take advantage of it. But your mentality is to crawl through loopholes, so I suppose the few inches between the gate and the floor represent a way in for you.
You need to get out in the real world, get a real job, and grow up.
-Hank
No. I think Mike is right. If you leave your front door open and someone walks in,provided nothing is damaged or taken, English law would make that a civil offence of trespass. I do not know what US law states. In any case an open door is an invitation to use rather than go thrugh a turnstile. Now if the person did not have a valid metrocard or did not suurender a token then in my opimion it would be an offense of theft.
>>> In any case an open door is an invitation to use rather than go thrugh a turnstile. <<<
As it has been described on this board, there should be no convictions for those who walked through the open gate. There would need to be at lest a sign visible to those entering saying "Exit Only" or "No Entry" to provide the necessary consciousness of wrong doing to support a criminal conviction. The reality of the matter is that most of those ticketed will pay the fine because it is too much trouble to contest the ticket.
Tom
It's an easy way to criminalise people.
Simon UK
no convictions? no charges & or even warnings yet some of you out there come down hard BRUTAL on that litle school girl in washington d.c. & you even support her being stripsearched drug searched handcuffed ( not given a summons,ticket,citation, & or a verbal warning. you dont even give the benifit of the doubt to the little school girl in washington at that washington d.c. subway. subtalkers, you give a free PASS on this issue....????!!!! ("subway gate crashers nailed")...???
by the way i am not saying anything against what old tom said here just responding to the series of threads & comparing it to the washington d.c. "food gestapo arrest" & all of the support of those BRUTAL transit police there in thier actions.
no i do not support people jumping the fair gate at transit stations rail bus etc. it is not fair to the people who pay.
Of course. SO the ticket my brother got for lack of insurance should be paid because he didn't find the card fast enough for the cop.
-Hank
In most of the US, trespass is both a misdemeanor and civilly actionable. IIRC, in NY there are several degrees of trespass, all but the least of which are called "criminal trespass" and are misdemeanors, while the least is just called trespass and is classified as a "petty offense" instead of being considered a "crime." As elsewhere, trespass is also civilly actionable in NY.
Amtrak Starts to Police Rails From Air
By THE NEW YORK TIMES
ASHINGTON, Nov. 26 Amtrak has begun to police its tracks from the skies with a helicopter leased with money forfeited by drug dealers.
The Amtrak police put a sergeant and a hired pilot aboard the helicopter, a Bell Jet Ranger, to ride above the rails from Boston to Washington.
While the helicopter's primary mission will be policing this stretch, which is Amtrak's busiest, the helicopter could be called upon by the Amtrak police in other regions, Ron Frazier, the railroad's police department chief, said.
The money comes to Amtrak from a Justice Department program that rewards state and local authorities that have helped solve drug trafficking cases.
Mr. Frazier said the helicopter would focus on patrolling Amtrak's right of way, watching for trespassers and vandals on the tracks along the Northeast Corridor of the passenger rail line.
The helicopter patrol will also help watch the rails when trains are carrying valuable goods, sensitive military equipment or important government officials.
The helicopter hovering above the rails will communicate with the railroad police on the ground, as well as with local authorities, who often are called in to help catch vandals or trespassers that the train's crew has spotted.
The helicopter flew its first mission earlier this month, when Amtrak's high-speed Acela Express had its inaugural run between Washington and New York. Several members of Congress were on that train.
For more than 15 years, the Justice Department and other enforcement agencies, like the Drug Enforcement Administration and the Customs Service, have worked with railroad authorities to intercept drugs, said Robert Sharp, a Justice Department official.
"We've cooperated with Amtrak for years, especially with drug trafficking up and down the East Coast," Mr. Sharp said.
Amtrak's helicopter patrols are the first such railroad program since the 1970's, when the Department of Transportation financed similar operations.
Despite their success in reducing vandalism, the operations ended when the federal money ran out.
Just because it's there, doesn't mean take advantage of it.
You need to get out in the real world, get a real job, and grow up
In the real world if you don't take advantage of opportunities you end up finishing last. A society that takes advntage of oppurtunities is far more effective than one that follows thestatus quo. We should be encouraging people to sieze the initiative, not ticketing them.
You should post while standing up to relieve the pressure on your brain. There's a big difference between taking initiative and committing a crime.
PC Richard on Queens Blvd places refrigerators on the sidewalk outside the store. Should I walk up and take one?
Every day I stare at a wall across the street that is covered with racist grafitti. Should I paint it?
If I do one, I'm committing a crime. If I do the other, I'm taking initiative.
-Hank
What about a fruit & vegetable store with the merchandise outside? You put it into one of the plastic bags and go inside to pay for it. You do not take the attitude "because the fruit/vegs are outside and the cashier is inside, then whatever is inside the store I pay for and whatever is outside is free?"
I would have to agree with Jersey Mike here: a transit authority has no business opening gates unless they plan to let people in for free. Or at least, yes, they should put up a sign as Gene Rusianoff mentioned. As for that, there is something like this at 69th Street Terminal, where all trains terminate on one track, and there is nothing to prevent people from entering where everyone is exiting. Yet people do not do this because:
1. The operator may see them
2. The train would have to go around the loop before it goes on the 2 tracks used for entering passengers. Nobody can know if the train is going around the loop or heading to the yards.
For people who know 69th Street Terminal, I don't understand why on weekends, or periods of low traffic, trains even use the third track. It seems more logical to use 69th Street as a stub end terminal, which would save them from having to use the loop track (or turn the power on there) which may save SEPTA money.
I think it's just faster and easier to just go around the loop, rather than stopping, waiting for the tracks to sleep, going to the other end of the 6 car train, and then going into the entrance part of the terminal. Also, I don't even think there is a switch between the westbound and eastbound tracks anyway.
People, usually railfans, do enter the exit ramp and nobody gives them any guff. However I did see 3 kids come down and try to cross the tracks (comming in contact w/ the covered part of the 3rd rail BTW) to get a free ride. A SEPTA guy saw them and started yelling HEY! over and over at which point the kids retreated.
With that reasoning if you leave the windows open where you live I can just climb in and make myself at home.
It's hard to say whether leaving the gate open to get people to fare-beat who otherwise wouldn't could be considered entrapment. If our illustrious mayor came up with such a plan, it would be touted as 'aggressive law enforcement'.
Some years ago, Transit police was sending decoys into the system to look like harmless, vulnerable drunks asleep on trains. To entice would-be robbers, dollar bills of large denomination would be hanging out of their pockets.
A court ruled that this amounted to entrapment because it was actively encouraging people to commit 'robbery', only to find out it's an undercover cop they're robbing.
Reminds me of a famous trap in which an unmarked police car tailgates you to speeds much higher than posted, then pulls you over to give you a ticket for speeding. Supposedly it does happen in some places at the ends of months, especially to young males in old cars.
It's hard to say whether leaving the gate open to get people to fare-beat who otherwise wouldn't could be considered entrapment. If our illustrious mayor came up with such a plan, it would be touted as 'aggressive law enforcement'.
Some years ago, Transit police was sending decoys into the system to look like harmless, vulnerable drunks asleep on trains. To entice would-be robbers, dollar bills of large denomination would be hanging out of their pockets.
A court ruled that this amounted to entrapment because it was actively encouraging people to commit 'robbery', only to find out it's an undercover cop they're robbing.
Entrapment's one of these warm-'n'-fuzzy concepts that's fiendishly difficult to apply on anything remotely approaching an objective basis. As I recall things, if a police sting entices someone to commit a crime that he otherwise would not have committed, it's entrapment; if the sting merely facilitates a crime that would have occurred in any event, it's not entrapment. It's quite obvious that most cases boil down to a judge's personal opinion, colored in many cases by his or her political leanings.
This happened to me this morning on the Belt, but a Ford Crown Vic Police Interceptor is pretty obvious. All black, tinted windows, a camera in the windsheild and 4 antenna on the roof or trunk. I didn't fall for it. I slowed down (from 60) to 50, changed lanes to let him pass me. He didn't. When I slowed down, so did he. Eventually, he changed lanes, but I kept him in front of me. Can't write me up for speed if he can't pace me from behind. This was all the way from the VZ to Pennsylvania Ave.
-Hank
Depending on the car I was driving, if I saw a cop(esque) car tailgating me I would execute a full service break application and let him slam into me, then I would sue the department for mucho denero. In NJ we have the Rear End law that makes any rear ender at fault no matter what the circumstances.
In NJ on I-295 or I-195 cops will come up behind you at high speed and tailgate not to pull you over, but because they need to get to the big training center in Jackson Twp. They freqently travel ay 80 or 90 w/ their lights off and then proceede to intimidate ppl truck style so they can get to their class b4 the doughnuts run out. One of these days they will cause an accident.
They wouldn't do this to you if you didn't block the left lane. The signs that say keep right except to pass apply to you.
>>signs that say keep right except to pass..
'betcha can't prop that when them "signs"
aren't present nor visible anywhere on said road
or highway.
i.e. Saw Mill Parkway
Signs or no signs, this is the law in both New York and New Jersey. And most states for that matter.
Not a law in NY, as far as I can tell (1997 VTL) I'll get a new one with my next traffic ticket.
-Hank
Don't they have signs on the Thruway for keep right except to pass?
Just because it's on the Thruway doesn't mean it's a law everywhere else though.
I've only ever seen those sign in New Jersey.
-Hank
I think you're right: it's not a law in NY (AFAIK). It should be, and I act as though it is. It is the law in NJ.
However if intent could be proved it would be a crime and fault would revert back to you. How to prove intent? (besides your posting which is saved in SubTalks's archives) I would say just slamming on your brakes and stopping short right in front of a police car for no apparent reason could convince a judge or jury intent. And if the cops got hurt there would be the added charge of assault on a Police Officer.
By the way, even if you did get away with it, what good is the monetary award if you're a cripple? I mean I would not want to get rear ended by a vehicle going 80-90 MPH!!
Reminds me of a famous trap in which an unmarked police car tailgates you to speeds much higher than posted, then pulls you over to give you a ticket for speeding. Supposedly it does happen in some places at the ends of months, especially to young males in old cars.
Yes, this is still common practice in small towns in North Carolina, and the judges tend to side with the cops, figuring (correctly) that the targets - mostly migrant workers from Mexico - won't fight the charges.
At the risk of drifting somewhat more off topic, this also reminds me of an incident that occurred when I was in college. A fellow student, driving a clapped-out '53 Ford sedan with burnt valves and a slippery clutch, was being tailgated by a cop late one night. Rather than try and speed up (which was out of the question - he was going flat out at 50 mph) he slammed on the brakes and ended up with the cop's front end buried up to the B pillars in the old Ford. My classmate had a few bruises (fortunately, someone before him had installed seat belts in the old beast and he was wearing his) but the unbelted cop was hurt pretty badly. He called me to go his bail; all of the charges were eventually dropped.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This morning's venture was to establish a "rendez-vous" with AE as it left Boston. I arrived at the Route 128 MBTA/AMTRAK station in time to catch the 7:16 departure for Boston on MBTA #904 from Sougthon. I made it up to the control cab, where I met up with the engineer with whom I've chatted in the past. AE was scheduled to leave South Station at 7:17am, so I figured we'd pass it around 7:25. Sure enough, at 7:23 as we were between Hyde Park and Ruggles, it zoomed by! A deadheading AMTRAK conductor who was riding in the control cab of our train got on his radio and said, "Looking Good ACELA!" Someone on AE responded over the radio, "Yeeeee-hahhhhh!"
For those of you who are not familliar w/ FRA regulations, that little radio exchange would not be considered inappropiate. Other trains crews are required to inspect passing trains whenever possivle and report the results via the radio. The deadhead conductor was informing the AE train that it was complete and he saw the tail lamps as well as commenting on their speed.
Interesting point, Jersey Mike, thanks! However our deadheading conductor did not see the tail lamps, as he was facing front out of our train and did not turn around. Even if he did, the limited vision and fact that we probably passed each other at a combined speed of well over 160 mph (we were doing close to 80 then!) would have made it impossible for him to see.
Hmm, I looked back at my source and the particiular engineer only talks about the tail lamps (2 red eyes) at night and during the day the responce is "----- Looking Good". I am not sure if a tail lamp ID is required (expected) during the day, only an assessment that the train has no obvious defects and appears to be complete. Still, the radio call of "ACELA Looking Good" is an operational statement that the train has passed a visual inspection, as well as an enthusiastic pat on the back.
I went back to Princeton Junction today, arriving around 11:05 for an estimated 11:30 pass. Its headlight came into view at 11:26 and it looked magnificent as it raced through the station on track 3 at 11:28. Amtrak had put "Acela Regional" (2 AEM-7's pulling an Acela consist) train #131 on track 4 (delaying a NJT NY to Trenton train) to make room for the AE.
No wonder when I was at Havre de Grace, MD to take the pictures at Acela Express crossing Susquehanna River, Acela Express came first.
It was at partly sunny day today. When other trains came, the sun was covered with clouds. Only when Acela Express came, the sun was shining. I want to thank Heaven for letting the sun not be covered with clouds.
Chaohwa
The Good Lord doth smile upon railfans, occasionally. :o)
So i gather the express managed to make it to dc before the signalling Snafu closed down the NEC? Thank goodness, that would have looked awful!!
From Pelham Bay Dave JR
There is some good news for anyone who taken and passed the (OC)Conductor Exam back in June of 1999.
They have started calling from the List of Exam Number 9003 for the Nov 27 Training class.
I was sworn in on Thursday for Conductor and will be in the Nov 27 class.
Congratulations, Dave, Jr!
You are about to fulfill a dream I had fifty years ago.
hey dave... congratulations on beginning your career in transit... i hope you enjoy every moment of it...
Buy time you are out of class I should be getting out of training for T/O. I am in the B-Division so if you pick there then we might work together.
Good Luck
Robert
I finished my medical on Friday Afternoon, unfortunatly, by the time I got out of the Medical office the Pass office was already closed, so hopefully, Monday Morning I will be getting my pass and fingerprints done, and be in the Nov. 27th Class.
Well, not being as lucky as Nick, or Todd-with-his-press-pass!, those of us who were working in NYC during day 1 of AE had to settle for this less-than-exciting mode of participation:
ABC World News Tonight had a short segment on the new train. Peter Jennings, in reading his copy, was careful to point out that the train was like the French TGV only in appearance, and that it goes "not quite as fast." In other words, the tone of the copy was somewhat less than enthusiastic -- still with a kind of "high speed train? We'll see" attitude. (At least they covered it.) The footage was of an unnamed gentleman breaking champagne over the nosecone followed by Amtrak B-roll of the trainset in various places along the route. (I wonder whether Mr. Jennings will ever ride the train.)
ABC did a fare job, other networks were screaming "BULLET TRAIN".. Haha
Wish I could have heard Todd's report on WCBS. I'm sure he gave the story its proper due. But living in the city, I hardly ever listen to the radio. I did all the time when I lived in PA and drove my car, but now I ride the Subway. Radio has definitely become a car thing. I will say that I did listen to WFAN Mets Radio this season and during the Series, because I found Joe Buck et al on FOX not as good. Costas on NBC is better. But I digress, as ususal...
ABC did use the words "Bullet Train," but it was like a Bullet Train or "similar to" a Bullet Train. As we all know, technology exists for real High Speed Rail, not Amtrak's "High Speed" rail. To establish it in the U.S. would be nothing short of revolutionary, but Acela Express is a start, I guess. If you've ever read anything by Joe Vranich (Derailed, Supertrains), who helped set up Amtrak, but now regularly takes it to task -- he recently even quit the Amtrak Reform Council -- you will note that he likes to point out how Acela isn't really High Speed. His proposals, however, would only work if there were no taxpayers and no NIMBYs, and especially no politicians. One of his main points is that Amtrak is so tied to the government (who wants to be the pol who lets the train disappear from his district?) that it will forever be hopelessly ineffective. Some of what he says makes sense, IMHO, but I confess I would be at a loss when trying to figure out how to solve any of the problems he cites.
I don't have a recording of my report, nor a transcript (I ad-libbed from notes). But here's a reasonable facsimile of it. Note that I was told the entire report, including any anchor reaction, had to be no more than 45 seconds (lots of political news to squeeze in between Traffic & Weather Together, a commercial, and business news!)
Amtrak's Acela Express inaugural run from Washington, DC and New York City arrived at Boston's South Station at 5:04pm -six minutes early - amid trumpets, thundering applause, and fireworks. First off was Amtrak Board Vice Chairman and former Governor of Massachusetts Michael Dukakis, who said that Acela Express is "powering a rail renaissance across America." Today's trip achieved a remarkable 150 miles per hour for 19 miles of its journey, which ran non-stop from New York City to Boston in about three hours and fifteen minutes. When revenue service begins on December 11, the trip will take under three-and-a-half hours including stops from NY to Boston, and less than three hours NY to DC. Reporting live from South Station in Boston, I'm Todd Glickman, WCBS 880 News.
And yes, my friend and anchor Wayne Cabot called me "a train geek as well as a weather geek." I guess that's truly
Todd, was that 19 miles at 150 mph or 19 minutes? The article in the Washington Post says that it went 150 for 40 miles, hence the question. Hope you did not sell Acela short on the air :)
The spokesman at South Station said 19 minutes. But he could have been wrong. I guess we'll have to look at the "black box" to know for sure!
Calling it a "Bullet Train" might even be an insult, because the origional "Bullet Train's" in Japan have a listed top speed of 130mph. The ACELA express is faster than the train that coined the term Bullet Train.
Yes, and the Japanese high speed trains run much much much faster today. Remember also the Metroliners were origionally intended for 150mph operation, and may have even done that briefly in service too. But the Metroliner MUs were quite an inmteresting story of a great idea gone bad. I'm not sure if it was weight (they were, AFAIK, even heavier than the acelas), technology not being there (It should have been though), bad implementation (insert opinions about Budd here), poor management (Penn Central!), or a combo of the above.
Oh yes, and contrary to popuylar belief, the TGV only runs on dedicated tracks for part of the trip, and runs on conventional tracks for a lot of it. The NEC is wide and pretty dam straight from Newark to Trenton. I bet a minimal investment in realignment, plus some clever re-engineering of the existing structures, would allow > 150mph speeds most of the way down, which would shave REAL time off NY to Philly, and by extension, NY to DC.
Anyone think Penn to 30th street in 30 - 45 minutes* would be popular? Especially if it were priced for the average person to afford?
*The metroliner is today capeable of doing it in 1 hour flat.
The Budd Metroliners were designed for 160 and hit 164 on a test. For fast speed they relied entirely upon having 1000 hp per car.
Yes, when I rode on the TGV they only went 186 on dedicated tracks. However the govt have built these tracks from Paris to Valance in the south, to some place about 50 miles SE of paris, all the way to the Chunnel and possibly a little dog leg to Brussles. However, even on the non-hi speed tracks the TGV's went fairly fast (90-110).
If you think that the Metro North segment of the NEC is a spoiler just look at the Chunnel line. Right past Dover the catenary ends and the EuroStar trains have to make due w/ 660 VDC 3rd rail, heavy MU traffic on a 2 track line and usual 60mph speeds. It was travel akin to Amtrak's 3 Rivers on CSX running on approach signals.
We all focus on Max. speed. What really matters is trip time (ie average speed) and comfort. I haven't seen much sign that Amtrak really focuses on average speed, ie. getting rid of slow crawls through interlockings, etc. But it does look like they worried a lot about comfort - and so far they are getting rave reviews for the comfort from the reporters they wined and dined. From what I have read, the Metroliner at 150 mph was NOT comfortable. Lets hope the trains hold up to keep things comfortable.
Well, I guess max speed does help them advertise. But that will get people on the train the first time. Comfort and high average speed will get them back for repeat journeys - the key.
At this point I'd have to say that Vranich is so one-sided he is nothing but a crank. Amtrak does not do what he says they should do so he thinks that everything they do is by definition wrong. Even the reform council, which is delighted to rain on any Amtrak parade, was too even-handed for Joe.
How to get in the newspapers: Be an articulate nay-sayer. Newspapers feel they should report both sides of a story. So everytime there is a report that Amtrak succeeded or failed in whatever way, the reporter calls up Joe for his say on things. That way the reporter does not have to actually figure out what's going on. They've reported both sides. This is a very visible phenomena in my field.
Well, yes, the press is less then excited. Train speeds like the Acela Express runs at existed in many other places 25 years ago. You don't hear the media getting all excited about propeller driven airliners these days, do you?
Actually, I think amtrak got really good coverage. I mean, there was even an article in the Denver Post about it - arguably the least likely major american city to get high speed rail in the next 100 years. Almost all the stuff I read, in many newspapers, was quite positive. I hope they can run the trains as effectively as they impressed those reporters!
Does either route 2 or 6 have more than one new (142, 142A) train in revenue service simultaneously? And, how many of the operating staff have been qualified to run the new equipment? Thanks.
I don't know about them running simultaniously, but I did see set 7260-7270 in service on Wednesday, today I saw the first set on the #6 line.
how about putting on a light rail line in the middle of the coney island boardwalk using pcc cars... in the spring, summer, and autumn there is certainly a large number of people in the area... even in the winter, it could serve the many people who walk from one end of the boardwalk to the other and who might like to ride in the direction that involves walking into a bitter wind... a light rail line would certainly help revive the penny arcades, turkish baths, parachute jump, thunderbolt roller coaster, fortune tellers, corn on the cob stands, and the old half moon hotel....
...not to forget it would aide the occasional panhandler and/or mugger in their travels from Coney to Brighton...:-)
BMTman
I'm a bit surprised that you two bikers would be for this on the Boardwalk ! On Surf Ave. that I would go for.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, running it on Surf Avenue would certainly be feasible. There are still wire support poles on some parts of the street. An extension to Sheepshead Bay might also be possible. Storage and maintenance could be within the Coney Island yards.
To really make it work, however, you need year-round attractions.
I like that idea and think it could fly, but, yes, you're right, there would have to be year 'round attractions. In fact, it would be nice to revamp Coney Island in general to make it the showplace it once was. It is important to bring out of town tourists to this area, and I never saw many when I visited the place. Certainly if some mega-company, working in consort with the state and local governments, put together a long range plan to revive the area it could beart fruit. But all involved must have the will to do so.
Yes, I think there have been rumors that Disney would do something like that. But that doesn't seem like their kind of thing, and besides, they wouldn't be right for the place. The problem is how to make it attractive and yet not seem like another theme park. Perhaps the only answer is to not have a mega-company do the whole thing, but rather have smaller ventures do varied projects on their own parcels. (The city and state would deal with overall zoning, infrastructure, and perhaps financing issues, not the "creative" aspects.) When you think about it, that's how Coney Island developed in the first place.
Paul: The problem is neither local or state agencies have stepped up to the plate and done anything about it while Coney Island still stagnates. Empires come and go, and so do recreational attitudes, but Coney Island has ( or is it had) a worldwide reputation. I venture to say, however, that if some people who have a high regard or a different image of the place came and saw what it looks like today, well the disappointment would be brutal.
They could extend the Slow Beach along the Boardwalk East to Manhatten Beach, after they turn it into the Trolley Line they are building in So Brooklyn, and running it down the Slow Beach Line
You want a rise out of me, and, sorry, you are not going to get it this time.
Wasn't the Malbone wreck on the Brighton Line. I cannot recall any accidents of major or minor proportions on my line except one in 1955 in Coney Island. That was when two of my Sea Beaches collided with one another. I don't believe there were any casualties except the two cars themselves. I had moved west the fall before and remember reading in the LA Papers of an accident of two #4 trains near Coney Island. They didn't even say they were Sea Beaches. Sort of pissed me off.
I also remember back in the Mid 50s when a Sea Beach Train went off the track at the curve going out of the Broadway-Canal Street St Station, and everyone had to use the tunnel for 8 hours. And your wife said, nothing can get a raise out of you
If you can give me the year I'd appreciate it. It could have been after I moved to California in late 1954. If it happened while I was still living in New York I missed reading about it.
The Malbone St. wreck occurred at the point where the southbound Franklin Ave. shuttle track ducks beneath the Flatbush Ave. tunnels to DeKalb Ave.
That 1955 Triplex collision was an epic one. It probably even registered on the Richter scale:-) I'll bet some Coney Island residents thought it was a sonic boom, or perhaps Junior had fallen out of bed again.
What kills me is that no two BMT standards never went at it. Go figure.
won t work if Bush gets in, all the tax breaks will go for his friends and Cheney s in the oil; and insurance industry, an nothing for the blue collar people
But of course, horse's ass Gore will do everything he can to get New York what it needs. Hey Bob, I know where you can buy a bridge real cheap.
especially if they ride the Slow Beach to Stillwell from the City
Welcome back, Bob.
Time to rekindle the great Brighton-Sea Beach Debate, I see.:-)
Yes it is, but I could use some backup out there. It seems I am vastly outnumbered-----but I won't back down to those Brighton Bums. I expect a response from Bob at any moment. All in kidding, however. But I did notice some bad blood between a Jerseyite and an Apple man.
No response except this one NONE
Hell Bob, you spoiled it for me. I could have sworn you'd bite at my bait. Hope you have a great Thanksgiving, and that goes for you Q, BMT Man, Newkirk, and the rest of the Brighton Express gang.
That would actually be pretty cool. It couldn't mesh with a longer system, because speeds would be slow. They could only go 4-5 mph since thye would be mixed wiht pedestrian traffic. But that would definitely be cool.
With all this talk of light rail lately, i think i'll head to Gresham Ore. and video tape the whole Max light rail line,including the zoo station tunnel,and maby a ride in the Portland vintage trolley,it should be a crisp and clear day,also some construction scenes of the airport extension line to open Sept 2001.
The MAX system is a modern LRV one, at least from the photos I saw in a trolley magazine ... enjoy.
Mr t__:^)
Excellent video and pictures of the MAX have already been taken by a close friend of mine, Chris Lee. He has a lot of cool ish on his website, MaxLightRail.com. But if you are going to Portland to videotape stuff, may I suggest you wait nine months?
Right now Portland only has the west and east lines, for a total of 33 miles of modern Light Rail. But two things are soon to be complete;
PORTLAND STREETCAR (portlandstreetcar.org)
The first of its kind in 40+ years, Portland will be opening the Central City Streetcar to revenue service. This line will operate single vehicles, manufactured in the Czech republic, entirely in mixed street traffic. Old-fashioned streetcar operating rules, brand new vehicles; just like on the Subway-Surface lines in Philly. Interesting note: Portland streets in downtown are notoriusly narrow, so the streetcars are only going to be 2.46M wide. This leaves room to seat only three across - one seat on one side of the aisle and two on the other side.
The other one...
AIRPORT EXTENSION (http://maxtrain.tripod.com/sections/airport/airport.html)
An extension of the MAX line from the existing Gateway Transit Center on the east line to Portland International Airport. Wait 'til this thing is in service and you can start your railfanning the moment you arrive at PDX!
An excellent sidetrip besides these two lines would be to take the Talgos up to Centralia or Seattle and back - they are a fun ride, and you to will enjoy using the "water closet" on the european-built trains. Also take time to hang around downtown Portland. Portland is one kick@$$ city and there's lots of neat ish to do. have fun!
The Max trains have a curtain blocking the view of the track ahead, i asked the motorman if he could open it for me so i could video tape the line,he said i'd have to get a pass to do so as he's not allowed to remove the curtain,how long has this been in effect ? last year my son and i was watching the operator run the cars from Portland to Lloyd Center and nothing was ever said about this policy.anyone know why this is so ?
A tad late for the Thunderbolt, don't you think?? Or in these turbulent times, a CHAD late!!!
OH, NO! Not the word "Tad" again?!
BMTman
OH, NO! Not the word "Tad" again?!
Wassamatta, Doug? Are you complaining about the plethora of posts using the word "Tad"?
Bob
Chuchubob: Putting a light rail on the boardwalk does sound a little far-fetched to me, but I've been on this Coney Island revival for the past week and if it would add a little pizaaz to the place, well, why not? They say there isn't enough room for a brand new version of Coney Island, but isn't quality space utilized every bit as good as quantity space not utilized properly? To let Coney Island waste away is a tragedy. It's like part of you being torn away.
heypaul:
You have a great idea. A light rail line along the boardwalk would be the greatest thing for Coney Island. It could be part of a Coney Island revitalization project. This could be one way to bring back Coney Island.
BMTJeff
bmt jeff said: "heypaul:
You have a great idea."
thank you jeff, but are not all my ideas great ideas?
All your ideas are great heypaul===sometimes way off the wall, but great anyway. BTW, where have you been? I have missed your gems of late. Stay on board.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I agree with you that heypaul's ideas are great. Maybe a few of them are off the wall. Remember my master plan for additions to the New York City subway system which included a Bronx to Queens connection between the IRT Corona-Flushing line and the IRT White Plains Rd. line? Those are great ideas I have in mind.
BMTJeff
I've actually had dreams in which there was such a line! Interesting.
R 160 up for bidding ,
required by 2004/2005
25 per cent more energy efficient,,,100000 BDBF Miles,Improvents to systems,including Doors,Propulsion,and Brakes using State of the Art Technology
Total----660 B Division Cars
Due to Successful testing
The R142 Bombardier total 680
The R142A Kawaksaki total 400
will now enter service after deliveries and acceptance tests
Retirement of the Redbirds will begin
Page 58
When can we expected the first Retired Birds and which cars?
Maybe we should start calling them remembered birds?
Well, someone here some months ago mentioned that at least 120 cars would have to be in service before we see any kind of retirements, which appears to be coming in the year 2001.
R-142 Roster:
6301-6345
7211-7270
So far we have,
45 Bombardier Cars plus
60 Kawasaki Cars
=105 Cars. You need 15 more to complete the initial phase in of new cars and start the retirements.
With that in mind, I guess the management will get cars with the worst structural integrity from various classes out first. Someone must be taking notes on how the car classes appear right now, and will act accordingly. MK Rebuilds appear to be the worst of the flock, particularly R-26/28/29s.
-Stef
I assume these will be 60-ft. cars, for the J/M/Z?
The Newark City Subway will be running PCC service next weekend, November 25-26. 9-5 workers, this could be your last chance to ride during daylight!
A-N-D the ERA has a Field Trip there, Friday Nov. 24th. They'll take you for a ride to the shops ooooh I'll be there.
I certainly would rather do that they shop with the wife !
Mr t__:^)
What time will that be happening? I ride the NCS everyday but have never gotten to "see the shops" I need to get my camera ready and snap some pictures since the shops are closing and the PCC are leaving us as well.
Does anyone know exactly when the new extention to Bloomfield is opening, and will it see PCC service or will it coincide with operating of the new LRVs?
Information on Friday's NCS shop tour is posted on "Upcoming Events" on this website.
The new LRVs are right now being stored in the new Bloomfield Station, this will also be the Head of Operations building for the Light Rail Division of NJT I believe. Once the new station in Bloomfield is open then the new LRVs will be running, on few occasions I have seen the new LRVs out as far as Franklin Street (where the new grade crossing will be)I suppose that they were testing the new crossing but I am not sure about that one.
Oh a great photo op to catch the old & new on the line. Wonder if Bill Newkirk has such a photo yet ?
Mr t__:^)
Sorry Mr.Thurston, no such photo exists in my collection yet. My luck, I'll probably ride the line without my camera !
Bill "Newkirk"
So the #7 will technically be no more. NJT is going to transfer control of the NCS from Bus Operations in Maplewood, to the new Light Rail Division in Bloomfield (I'm going to assumethe new Light Rail Division will oversee SNJLRT, NERL and HBLR as well)
12 Year Old Arrested For Snacking In Subway
Good. She got what she deserved. "She...didnt think she would get arrested." Her mother complains that "the police treated her like a criminal" - which, of course, she is. I like Chief McDevitt's attitude of zero tolerance and wish New York would do the same.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
* mr mouse ??
WHAT?? she got what she deserved? / no she is not a criminal & you presented no proff she commited a violent felony this little girl did not deserve to be strip searched - drug searched by who knows who!!!!
she did not commit any crime whatsoever! a small infraction maybe !!
the gestapos who violated her should be sued until they stop this BS once & for all!! why did they not isue a ticket? summons to come to court? a citation? or how about a verbal warning mr mouse??
And would you be so "pro zero tolerance" if your daughter had been violated to the far extreme including public strip searches in which these food nazis whent in D.C. washington D.C.,the so called transit police??...
Read the other thread on this topic. Of course she did. The rule is NO EATING. If you eat, you will get caught. It is called CAUSE and EFFECT. The CAUSE is eating, the EFFECT is arrest. DEAL WITH IT!
The other thread got removed when the Nazi's and KKK got involved. Do you think we might have a discussion that doesn't go that far, this time?
I didn't see it got removed. I wonder how we wound up talking about that.
You wonder about Salaam? I'm surprised that you don't know about our resident hatemonger.
pork you are talking to yourself again !
as for the on topic there was no excuse what those gestapos did in dc
if you have a policy in rail stations & trains then issue warnings & or citations first. handcuffing some little girl on her way home from school is wrong! how about that you hatemonger resident pig!!
Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding. The girl was NOT strip-searched. No one has EVER been strip-searched in public (we all would've hear the shit hit the Supreme Court in that case) It is customary for police officers to detail minors until a parent/guardian comes for them. That hers was a minor crime notwithstanding, the officers followed proper proceedure and her rights were not violated in any way.
-Hank
It was a VERY minor crime. She should NOT have been searched in that way! Yes, I know she wasn't strip searched, but she was searched just the same, and drugs were not even remotely an issue in this case. If that is the proper procedure, then the procedure should be changed!
- Lyle Goldman
And if they DIDN'T search her, and she had a knife with which she injured herself or another person? Then what? Proceedure is to hold all juveniles. Proceedure is to search all those held. WHats the problem here? Her rights were not violated the tiniest bit.
-Hank
Is it legal to search someone without a warrant?
A personal search (that of the person and their immediate effects [purse, backpack, clothing, etc., but not an automobile, for example] is permitted when the person is being taken into custody. As indicated earlier in this thread, this is done as much for the safety of the person being taken into custody and of the officers involved as it is a search for contraband. A strip search, which was not performed in this case, would be done in a private room, by an officer of the same sex as the detainee and must be witnessed by at least one other person, also of the same sex. (At one time South Carolina required two other same-sex witnesses if the person being strip searched is female; I don't know if that is still the case.) No warrant is required for either of these searches.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And, before anyone asks, you don't need an arrest warrant either in a case like this because the crime (such as it was) was comitted in the officer's presence.
Yes, I'm for cleaner subways like anyone else, but I do think that an arrest, search, and handcuffs for eating in the subway is quite a bit much. And yes, sometimes procedures are faulty. Could you imagine someone who has never used drugs or alcohol (we presume innoncent, not guilt) suddenly being confronted by officers about drugs and being searched for them because of eating in the subway?
* stop making sense!
Don't worry, you've stopped making sense a long time ago!
Dont worry you've stop making sense a long time ago!
Finally got that brain implant, eh? You shouldn't have used a parrot's brain though.
* so polly wants a cracker? ......( you of cource ) mr pig...
at least a parrot has more sense than a pig!! oink!!! oink!!
a verbal warning could have been done at the d.c. rail station
( back on topic )
A warning is reasonable if a person is not aware of a rule or law. This young lady stated that she new the rule and willfully decided to violate it. Hence, what good is a verbal warning? If you willfully break the law, you should be prepared to accept the consequences for your actions. Then again, why am I trying to explain things to a person who obviously has no common sense?
Just to throw in, the link is still up to the Reuters story.
http://www.iwon.com/home/news/news_article/0,11746,56187|oddlyenough|11-17-2000::08:20|reuters,00.html
-Hank
A warning is reasonable if a person is not aware of a rule or law. This young lady stated that she new the rule and willfully decided to violate it. Hence, what good is a verbal warning? If you willfully break the law, you should be prepared to accept the consequences for your actions. Then again, why am I trying to explain things to a person who obviously has no common sense??
Then again, why am I trying to explain things to a person who obviously has no common sense??
Beats the heck out of me, but I find myself doing the same thing. I guess sometimes we just can't help ourselves.
This young lady stated that she knew the rule and willfully decided to violate it.
IIRC, the young lady denied speaking with the snack police officer; the police say she expressed awareness of the no-food policy.
Here is a quote from the article.
She said she never talked to the officer, although Metro police insist that she was asked whether she knew eating in the station was against the law and that she said she did.
Reprint is in Sundays Philly Inquirer.
>>> I do think that an arrest, search, and handcuffs for eating in the subway is quite a bit much. <<<
It is true that arrest is a bit much for eating in the subway, and as the article pointed out most people were just given a citation. What complicated this situation was the fact that a minor was involved (and she stated she knew it was wrong to eat in the subway). It is believed to be important that the parents are notified when a juvenile commits an offense, even a misdemeanor. If she were just given a citation, there would be no assurance that the parents would find out about it, therefore the policy calls for taking the minor into custody to be turned over to her parents. The search should have been only for weapons for the officers' safety, but if she was being detained at a juvenile facility with access to others there would be a search to insure that no contraband was introduced to the facility.
Tom
* a verbal warning or ticket & or summons to court could have been given thats what you do in a civilized society not a BRUTAL one like we have here in parts of the usa! ( & dont give me this crap about moving )!!
You just don't get it Salaam.
A verbal warning does absolutely NO GOOD if a person says that he/she KNEW ABOUT IT but still disobeyed it.
Lets say that you Salaam, are waiting for a blue line train on the platform and you are smoking a cigarette while standing on the platform. An officer comes up to you saying that you need to put out the cigarette because there is no smoking allowed.
You then say "I know that smoking isn't allowed but I did it anyway cause I felt like it". That cop is supposed to IMMEDIATELY LOCK YOU UP because you knew about the rule but you still violated it.
This has absolutely nothing to do with gestapos, etc. You think that all the cops in America are just like the LAPD with their heavy handed tactics. Sorry Salaam but that is not the case.
They don't have to lock him up.
The penalty for smoking or eating is merely a fine. If he can provide positive ID, they can issue a citation, and they have his real name for the record to ensure that the matter is followed through.
If he doesn't have ID, they have to take him in to custody to prevent him from leaving the wrong name and getting off scot-free.
he then could produce a counterfit id & get away with it ! besides running fingerprints to establish an id is costly & quite involved
IDs have safety features that every cop should know about.
If the cop doesn't check, then that's his own problem.
You're pretty god at making excuses.
NYPD policy is no ID, you get processed. If you can't prove who you are, how do we know you're not an axe murderer? I can't remember the exact details, but I recal a crime a few years ago where the guy who committed it was stopped by the cops within hours for something minor, and was processed.
-Hank
You are wasting your time trying to be logical with Salaam. He also believes in selectively obeying laws.
1. The Second Avenue Subway
2. salaamallah understands a logical statement and agrees with it.
This creates a double punishment that doesn't exist for adults. A juvenile, in addition to being subjected to more harsh treatment by the police, then has to deal with their parents.
If the child has already been given a citation, then there's no reason to bring more enforcement into the process. If the police want to give up the child to the parents without a citation, that's fine.
It is believed to be important that the parents are notified when a juvenile commits an offense, even a misdemeanor. If she were just given a citation, there would be no assurance that the parents would find out about it, therefore the policy calls for taking the minor into custody to be turned over to her parents.
So you'ld be in favor of arresting juveniles for j-walking?
"If she were just given a citation, there would be no assurance that the parents would find out about it, therefore the policy calls for taking the minor into custody to be turned over to her parents. "
I understand that this is what a lot of folks have said, but but wouldn't a citation involve a police record (if only a juvenile one) and couldn't the police contact the household or residence if any appropriate fines have not been paid? If you don't pay a parking ticket, you can be quite sure that the city will not forget and that a court summons may follow!
>>> couldn't the police contact the household or residence if any appropriate fines have not been paid? <<<
That's not very realistic. Police hardly can find the time to follow up on felony warrants. They certainly would not go looking for a juvenile who had not paid a fine. The normal procedure when a citation is ignored is to issue a bench warrant. No one follows up on it unless there is some other contact with the police and a warrant check is run.
Is your memory so poor from your youth, or did you have a sheltered childhood? I know I was a latch key kid on the East Side of Manhattan, and I did not carry ID which would have my address on it when I was 10-12 years old (but I usually had a cutting weapon from age six on). My basic ID was a library card. And I certainly knew how to keep an eye on the mailbox to intercept any mail I did not want my mother to see. I am sure that if I received a citation from a policeman I certainly would not have told my mother, and even if I had given my correct address, she would never have received any follow up in the mail. The only way that my mother would have found out about any transgression would have been if I was taken home by the beat cop.
Tom
If you were an adult and constantly throw away mail relating to an unresolved summons, then eventually they would catch up with you.
The same thing would happen with a child, and he would learn the lesson.
If you wouldn't get in trouble for ignoring summonses, then nobody should. Double standards are wrong.
"No one follows up on it unless there is some other contact with the police"
Really? Yes, the justice system is quite backed-up, but a court summons is something that most people, even most older children, know not to take lightly. Normally, failure to show for a court proceeding means forfeiture of your case for that session - this is true even in minor cases in traffic court. Also, if you don't pay your parking tickets (a rough adult analogy) the city will surely follow-up on it. Granted, they have your registration concerning parking problems, but I really think that better follow-up is what usually happens.
Well, maybe you interacted with your parents that way and got away with it, but it really is true that sooner or later, the transgressions will add up and people will find out. You can't beat the police forever.
Your ID was your library card? Didn't you have a school ID card (alright, so some don't have addresses)? Also, many older children have credit cards.
-turnstiles
>>> but a court summons is something that most people, even most older children, know not to take lightly. <<<
That is true for most law abiding people, but not those who are the regular clientele of the criminal courts. You are making the common mistake of projecting your values onto society as a whole.
>>> Also, if you don't pay your parking tickets (a rough adult analogy) the city will surely follow-up on it <<<
With parking tickets there is a vehicle with registration records, but even then, scofflaws can gather a large number of tickets without a visit from the police. The manpower is not available to track down minor offenders. That is why parking tickets are tied into auto registration for enforcement, and other minor items are recorded against the offender's driver's license, so that police can check warrants during a traffic stop. No police officer will show up at your doorstep for a failure to appear on a minor infraction.
With minors there is even less likely to be a follow up. The theory of juvenile justice is to set the offender straight, not to collect a fine. Add that to no dependable ID for minors too young to have a driver's licence, and the only reliable way to deal with juvenile offenders for minor offenses which do not deserve incarceration to protect the public is to turn the juvenile over to the parents. If the offense takes place near the child's home, he/she is usually taken there directly by the officer, if this is not possible because there is too much distance, or the parent will not be home, the minor is held until the parent can be located and can retrieve the child.
Tom
I personally believe that the WMATA cops were absolutely justified in this instance.
The story said that people are given a warning by the police if they are unaware of the "no food" rule. This girl stated that she knew about the rule, but brought her food on to the property anyway. In other words, the hell with the rule, I'm gonna do what I want. Well she got busted. GOOD.
As far as searching her, that's standard procedure. Anytime anyone is arrested for any reason no matter how small the charge may be, they are subject to a search.
This girl was taught a valuable lesson here. I betcha this girl as well as a few other WMATA riders will now think twice before they willingly violate the rules.
what lesson was she taught? how BRUTAL & unfair it is to live in the USA!! & what proff does anyone have this was a ""willful"" violation?
the presumption is 100% wrong! & finally the question that is still ducked & that is if this was your daughter how cool calm & collected &this bullcrap about ""law rules & order"" would all of you be & or would you be first to hire a lawyer to sue the hell out of the gestapos who violated your child !!!( transit food cops ) ??
Salaam, since you feel that it is "BRUTAL & unfair...to live in the USA", WHY DON'T YOU LEAVE?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
same to you nut!!
i told the truth & you cant take it fool!
No Salaam, as usual, you lied. You may do a very good job shooting videos of the subway, but you do a lousy job at understanding the truth. I've tried to keep my mouth shut when it comes to your rantings, but this time you went too far. Since you have stated that you don't like living in the USA, then I suggest you leave. Once you've experienced life almost anywhere else in the world you'll realize that, for all its flaws, this is the best country in the world.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
no you lie!! a verbal warning citation ticket summons to court was all that was needed mr liar!! ...& the rest of your post as well..
also i am 1/2 american indian get off my land!! ( smile )...
by the way my videos are the best in the land my recent shootings are masterpieces !!there is no ranting except yours mr.!!
the savage BRUTAL misconduct unleashed on this little girl should be condemmed by you & by all who boast how proud they are to be usa residents & how much better it is here than anywhere else !! this whole horrible incident should never happen to anybody at any public rail transportation station & or any train!
a nice verbal warning asking her to throw away her food dispose it in front of the transit cops / citation / ticket / summons to court!!
then you can boast of your being so dammed proud!!
Exactly what was 'brutal'? She wasn't beaten, wasn't raped, wasn't injured in any way. Rodney King was Brutality. Abner Louima was Brutality. The arrest, citation, and subsequent release of a young girl for a misdemeanor is in no way close to brutal.
-Hank
* your post would be 100% diferent if it was your daughter...
that is all............
I think you know me well enough now that I believe fully in reaping what you sow.
-Hank
The fact is my daughter was raised to have respect for the rules of society. She would not willfully violate the law. Clearly, from this and other threads, you have no respect for law enforcement personnel and you feel perfectly justified in deciding which laws you will or will not violate. It's also clear that you invent information to bolster your otherwise weak case. You've already discredited yourself. let's move on.................
The fact is my daughter was raised to have respect for the rules of society. She would not willfully violate the law. Clearly, from this and other threads, you have no respect for law enforcement personnel and you feel perfectly justified in deciding which laws you will or will not violate.
The problem was not the law, in which I have the utmost for the rule thereof, but the manner in which it was enforced. The fact is that this was a very minor infraction, an infraction in which no one should be searched and hauled off in handcuffs for. The metro police have better things to do than setting up an UNDERCOVER STING operation for persons eating a French fry in a metro station; this girl might even face disciplinary action from her school, WaPo, Nov 16. They could attempt to patrol the red line ROW during nighttime between Rhode Isl. Ave. and Takoma to catch artists who are making it look like the sea beach line.
Bottom Line: In this country the punishment must fit the crime; we do not cut off the hands of a thief nor do we execute that same person. That, sir, is a police state; perhaps you would like to live in one, but I indeed dont. When we sacrifice the rights of some for the temporary convenience of many we are just one step closer down the road to serfdom. This is just what zero-tolerance laws do, overlawyed.org, ABA.
I agree with you most of the way here.
However, if she did not have ID, then it is normal procedure to take her in, and that is not wrong.
The double punishment I mentioned in the other post is rearing its ugly head. The fact that parents and the school have to be informed is just another part of society's oppression against youth. The school should have NO SAY in this matter. Would an employer even be informed if an employee was caught eating in the subway after having used a MetroChek to board (MetroChek=DC TransitChek)?
The metro police have better things to do than setting up an UNDERCOVER STING operation for persons eating a French fry in a metro station
OK-Don't arrest someone eating 1 french fry. What about 2 fries? Three fries? More fries. What about a burger? What about 2 fries and a burger? What about something else? What is the something else?
How much of the something else? It goes on and on and on !!
No matter what level you allow, there will always be someone who is just over the limit yelling and screaming.
Their is only way to stop it and that is to say none !!
Hey, when did they start passing these no-eating laws, anyway?
- Lyle Goldman
They're on the books everywhere, and have been so forever.
It's illegal to eat in the New York Subway too. It's too bad they don't enforce it.
> It's illegal to eat in the New York Subway too.
I know that. There are signs everywhere indicating that. I just want to know how long they have had these laws. Food and drink must have been allowed on some subway systems at some point in time.
- Lyle Goldman
On the DC system, it has been banned from the beginning of the system.
-Hank
What about the NYC Subway system?
- Lyle Goldman
Unfortunately, officially only fish and baskets used to carry fish are banned. Unofficially, you can eat a 5 course dinner on the E train during rush hour and no one except the ocassional skell will bother you. That's why you find chicken wing bones and half eaten chinese meals under the seats. School kids throw potato chips at each other and then spray themselves and innocent customers with soda. Adults are a bit more discrete when they drop their candy wrappers but are equally slobs. That general lack of respect for the system is why on every holiday, a full compliment of cleaners and road car inspectors must be required to work.
This reminds me of something similar that happened to me a while back. I was attending NYU in Greenwich Village, and one day, I had some free time, so I took a stroll through Washington Square Park, and I happened to walk into a playground. All of a sudden, this cop came and arrested me! He took my I.D., handcuffed me, and dragged me in a police car to a holding cell, where they proceeded to take away my sweatshirt and and sneakers (because God forbid they should allow me to have something with any kind of string, like I could possibly cause any harm with a shoelace and a tie string! But I digress.). Then, they had some detective question me and, of all the nerve, they implied that I may be some kind of child molester! Then, perhaps to satisfy someone's inflated ego, they served me with a summons to appear in court for "tresspassing." When I went to court, the judge wouldn't even dismiss the case! She "allowed" me to plead guilty to a lesser charge of "disorderly conduct," which I foolishly accepted. I was forced to pay ninety-five dollars! And to top that all off, the University found out with me and warned me that I could get in trouble with the school just because I was arrested. All that just because I was in a children't playground, and I DIDN'T EVEN BREAK ANY LAW! So, you see, the system is less than perfect.
So, if I seem a bit snippy sometimes, even though I try not to be and am sorry if I am, now you know one reason why.
- Lyle Goldman
That's horrible!
That money would be better spent on a lawyer, although I'm sure that one costs more than $95.00.
The worst thing about when people are prosecuted for crimes they didn't commit or fake crimes is when the police and prosecution are allowed to get away with it.
Where's Salaam and Al Sharpton to get bent out of shape over this miscarriage of justice?
-Hank
* take a flying leap hank...
Kindly demonstrate.
-Hank
ladies first !!
Thank you for your support. You guys are right. I should have pled not guilty and fought the charges. I guess I was worried that I would have a criminal charge on my record (Disorderly Conduct is just considered a "violation."). Or maybe I just wanted to get it over with and get on with my life. It was probably both. I've always played it safe and taken it easy. I never even cross between train cars while the train is moving. People say I should be more proactive, and maybe they're right.
There was a time when cops were honest and respected. Now, some cops will do anything to get a civilian in trouble. Last year, two cops gave my father a ticket for running a red light, even though the light was actually yellow. My father just paid the ticket, since he figured no judge would take his word over two cops. I don't mean to show disrespect for all cops, but things are getting worse instead of better.
- Lyle Goldman
>>> There was a time when cops were honest and respected. <<<
When was that? Actually standards have improved for law enforcement officers, and I do not believe there was ever a time when law enforcement was more honest and professional than it is now. At the turn of the last century New York policemen were poorly educated, poorly trained poorly paid Irishmen hired because of connections on the job and large physical size. A policeman was expected to pinch apples from the local merchant, get free meals and coffee from restaurants on his beat, and look the other way for a gratuity with regard to vice crimes such as gambling and prostitution. As late as the 70s the Knapp commission found widespread graft.
Now the overwhelming majority of police officers are honest well trained and well paid civil servants. Of course in any group, whether they are police, lawyers, politicians, doctors or clergymen, there will be a few bad actors, but overall the quality is very good. What may have changed is there is now better reporting of police misconduct and far less tolerance of it.
Tom
>>> There was a time when cops were honest and respected. <<<
When was that? Actually standards have improved for law enforcement officers, and I do not believe there was ever a time when law enforcement was more honest and professional than it is now. At the turn of the last century New York policemen were poorly educated, poorly trained poorly paid Irishmen hired because of connections on the job and large physical size. A policeman was expected to pinch apples from the local merchant, get free meals and coffee from restaurants on his beat, take whatever action he wanted to keep the peace on his beat, and look the other way for a gratuity with regard to vice crimes such as gambling and prostitution. As late as the 70s the Knapp commission found widespread graft.
Now the overwhelming majority of police officers are honest well trained and well paid civil servants. Of course in any group, whether they are police, lawyers, politicians, doctors or clergymen, there will be a few bad actors, but overall the quality is very good. What may have changed is there is now better reporting of police misconduct and far less tolerance of it.
Tom
>>> perhaps to satisfy someone's inflated ego, they served me with a summons to appear in court for "tresspassing. <<<
The charge was not to satisfy someone's ego, it was a CYA move to prevent a future false arrest suit. If they had let you go with no charge, you might have sued them. In California, prosecutors will sometimes bargain to drop criminal charges only if the defendant agrees he will not sue for false arrest. This leaves someone who is factually innocent and has spent several days or weeks in pre-trial custody with the choice of giving up the right to be compensated for the false arrest, or face prosecution which could result in prison time on a charge that the DA does not believe to be true. This practice was upheld by appelate courts.
Tom
If cops have to make up false charges and put people through that much trouble just to cover their own asses, then it's a sick society we're living in. I've never heard of such a practice before!
- Lyle Goldman
* yea like how they completely whent overboad with this little girl
in the wash d.c. subway i could tell you some other stories about how the los angeles sherifs act on the blue line here in los angeles !
>>> then it's a sick society we're living in. <<<
Welcome to the real world.
Tom
There's no reason that stupidity should continue to exist only because that's the "real world."
"There's no reason that stupidity should continue to exist only because that's the "real world."
If this is true, then how do you explain Salaam?
Dude LOL on that Sal. can take the thought.
Dude LOL on that Sal. can take the heat though.
* happens all the time just ask the 3 posters here who know this is true but hide behind thier computer screens & rant & rave off topic, go into the personal attack & insults mode & ignore the truth. would not even confess it if it struck them in the face head on! like what happend to this poor litle school girl in washington in the subway station there !!
stole my thunder !!
* & if your daughter was handcuffed & strip searched etc by the gestapos in the d.c. subway? Q & A as to was she using selling drugs? You would be one happy father!!
I would tell my kids NOT to eat on the subway and that would be the end of it. Also, since I am a railfan, they should know better.
Salaam is actually raising a good point here though - an arrest ( or detention with handcuffing - which is not very different) for eating food in a transit facility is completely unrelated to drugs or alcohol abuse. It really is - you simply cannot imply that one infraction of the law means many others are present. While it may be standard procedure to question about drug/alcohol: 1) procedures can be changed and 2) searching the bag is unnecessary (as far the food stuff is concerned) since the girl was already caught red-handed eating.
It is a good procedure. Somebody intending to commit a serious crime will not care about minor infractions. These kinds of small arrests are what prevent the crimes that lead to bigger ones from happening.
That's also why people are arrested for farebeating, where the cost of enforcement is greater than the money lost in letting people get away.
Minor offenses, what Rudy Giuliani called "Quality Of Life Crimes", these were then targeted for enforcement. it is a valuable part of an effective anti crime strategy. While the Clinton prosperity helped to lower crime a great deal, Rudy's strategies have really made NYC a better place to work, live, and visit
* if this happened to some of the subtalkers sons / daughters the a lawsuit & outrage would be filed. its always easy when this happens to somebody else! ( thankz ) salaam allah
It happened to my brother, and no one is up in arms. He was picked up near Kingsborough for drug possession. He didn't have any, but he was 'swept' at a conveinence store that was apparantly a location. As he's not a minor, he was cited and released, but when he was taken into custody, he was searched and detained for several hours. No one is making excuses for him.
(Charges have been dropped)
-Hank
glad i aint your brother! & the diffference is here he was a full grown man not some terrified stripsearched drugsearched innocent little girl !! ( you must love your daughter ) bet you would not be so cool about this if it was her ! would you mr hank ??
For one thing you make stupid assumptions about whether or not people have children.
And this girl was not scared. She knew what she was doing and she knew it was wrong. There's no reason she should have been surprised with the treatment.
* i am sure your folks in the media cleaned this up later to project your already pre judged thoughts on this subject.
however if that little girl was your daughter it would be a different story for you. as for somebody admitting they are wrong & if that is trufully so, it doesnt justify all of harsh & brutal force used against a little girl !!
SHE WASN'T STRIPSEARCHED!!!!!
she was
I have posted the original article from the Post and the reprint from the Inquirer, neither of which mentioned a strip search, and both of which used the girl and her mother as sources. I have seen in 5 places on the internet that she was stripsearched, but since all 5 were your posts, I don't believe it.
* the family ( in which i believe ) & the legal team in which i read somewhere else said so ( i believe them )
hope they sue & collect a very HIGH payment for this violation !
glad i aint your brother! & the diffference is here he was a full grown man not some terrified stripsearched drugsearched innocent little girl !!if you do have a son & or a daughter.. (do you love your daughter ) bet you would not be so cool about this if it was her ! would you mr hank ?? & by the transit sheriffs / cops??
Just to relate this back to transit:
A person with 17 years on the job was found in violation of a very common rule regarding 'Sick Leave'. The penalty is appropriate discipline AND loss of sick leave pay. The TWU rep approached me and asked why I had to enforce "every silly clause in the contract". I asked him, if I'm willing not to enforce section 2.6 of the contract, can I also not enforce section 2.5 (holiday pay)? Of course, he said, "Oh, you can't do that".
As far as i am concerned, there are no small laws. All laws should be enforced equally. If we are not going to enforce them, they should be removed from the books. The fact is when you decide what laws you will obey and which ones you won't, you open the doors to permit others to do as they wish. Hence, eventually you have no enforcement at all.
As far as i am concerned, there are no small laws. All laws should be enforced equally. If we are not going to enforce them, they should be removed from the books. The fact is when you decide what laws you will obey and which ones you won't, you open the doors to permit others to do as they wish. Hence, eventually you have no enforcement at all.
I'm not sure as if this analogy really applies to the DC Metro situation. Had an adult been given a citation for violating the no-food policy, even if he or she had claimed to be unaware of the rule, no one would be likely to complain. What may have been excessive was the fact that the girl was handcuffed and later fingerprinted. In other words, it wasn't the rule, it was the manner of enforcement.
* then the death penatily should be strictly enforced for eating in any washington d.c. metro station & or train...( small laws ) ??
Do even understand the differences between what is a law, what is an enforcement action, what is an appropriate punishment?
-Hank
(KD) I had a very strong feeling that given your vast 'intelect', you'd understand my point fully.
This girl KNEW about the rule. The punishment was swift and justified.
Peter, I'm sure it's not a perfect analogy but I do know that because of our legal system, juvinals must be treated differently that adults. Let us also suppose that instead of handling the matter in the way it was, a summons was issued and the child, because of her age, her ignorance of the consequences and her lack of respect for the law, decided to simply ignore it. Then a warrant would have to be issued - compounding the trouble this child would be in. All and all, I think the child was well served.
A copy of the summons would have been mailed to the home.
If the child is irresponsible, the parents would then find out.
Absolutely.
"A copy would be sent to the child's home."
Of course, in case the child intercepted the summons at home, another would be sent to the child's school. In case the child was a drop-out, still another copy would be sent to her church. Oh, I forgot, they could also send a copy of the summons to the child's aunt in Keokuk, Iowa.
You know what? You and Salaam are right. The DC transit police over-reacted. Why not now make a list of laws which ought to be ignored and which laws ought to be obeyed.
You know what? You and Salaam are right. The DC transit police over-reacted.
How an I and Salaam right? I never said the police overreacted. I only said taking a child into custody just because she is a child and not just because she had no ID is wrong.
The only part where I truly disagree with in this specific case is the school trying to punish the child for something that has nothing to do with school.
how is this possible ?? pork the other white meat becoming kosher ?
man that is a flying leap!
Salaam, YOUR A SCREAM!!!
how is this possible ?? pork the other white meat becoming kosher ?
man that is a flying leap!..
how is this possible ?? pork the other white meat becoming kosher ?
I'll be kosher when I fly.
* your 3 post seem to contain more B.S. than anything else. handcuffs were absolutely wrong here along witn the arrests /strip searches/drug stripsearches etc.these transit butal gestapos-KGB are totally out of control in the washington d.c. subway system !!!!
If this were my daughter i would also totally understand her future disrespect for the police & sherifs / so called authority whatever the hell that is! using public transit should not result in abuses & excessive uses of force like this poor little girl suffered that SOME of you could care less about / maybe even if it was your daughter ?
maybe so !! i would sue until this B.S. stops !!!
.. never mind if i mispelled something you understood what i said..
( thank you ) !!!!
Yes I undersood what you said and it's nice to know that you are still the Village Idiot. For the last time, there was no strip search. Eather document that there was one or cut the crap. Have some self respect, KD
the not with no village speaks again! there was a strip & drug search
the crap is yours at your idiot hdq. mr kd!!
if this was your daughter yiu would sing a different tune !!! mr carp!
Mr. Carp? Do me a favor, Salaam. Please stand upright. The sound of your knuckles dragging on the sidewalk is giving me a headache.
Please tell us all what your definition of a strip search is. Maybe it's not the same as the rest of the worlds.
-Hank
Funny, seems to me that crime in the subway has dramatically decreased since they started doing farebeating sweeps. Someone willing to kill or rape isn't going to givashit about paying a subway fare.
-Hank
Uh, first of all, she was not jumping the turnstile. And of course murderers and rapists probably don't care about the fare. In any case, the decrease in the crime rate in the subway could be due to other things, especially since the overall crime rate in NYC has been decreasing for years IIRC.
I was talking about eating on the subway and arrests with drug-searches/questioning, which carry huge implications in this country - I believe that it could have been handled more appropriately.
A citation with a fine (which could mandatory in all such cases) would have been appropriate. What about the girl not reporting the infraction to her parents? - often cited as a reason for the handcuffs and arrest. Many children lie to their parents. However, what was done was not necessary - if she was cited, wriiten up, and fined , the entire incident would most definiely be in police records and if she failed to pay, appropriate action could easily be taken - and yes, the parents would know.
The girl was clearly at fault, but the response was excessive. Assuming that one crime means another is a big and rather risky leap for me, at least.
Exactly. The parents would find out because the child would be unlikely to pay herself. The parents would pay and punish the child appropriately. If the child has her own money (not relevant for a twelve year old), then she could pay and it doesn't matter to the parents because it isn't their money.
Yes, the child will ultimately pay the (fair) price. No need for handcuffs or arrests in this case - if you owe the city, the penalty will be received.
They HOLD ALL YOUTHFUL OFFENDERS UNTIL A PARENT OR GUARDIAN ARRIVES FOR THEM. It is as much a matter of the safety of the child as it is an enforcement action.
-Hank
I don't see how the saftey of the child argument is relevent to any law enforcement action in this case. Being located inside a subway doesn't automatically cause one's safety to be comprimised.
Speaking of the subway, there are now about 25 people in Toronto who became the victim of a serious and horrible crime this morning: I ate a croissant on the train from Eglinton station (where I got on and bought the said croissant at the Second Cup located with the other restaruants/coffee shops INSIDE the fair paid zone, no less) and St. Clair station. Those other passengers who were in the subway car where I ate the croissant could be scarred for life now, although at the time nobody seemed to notice me with my midmorning snack much less even care.
* thats what i said a verbal warning / citation / ticket /summons to court
& this is all the KGB tranist police in washington D.C. needed to do!
or they could have just "looked at her" ( you know what i mean )..
It is as much a matter of the safety of the child as it is an enforcement action.
How does this guarantee the safety of a child? A child is more likely to slash his/her wrists after being written a simple ticket?
Unless safety=inconvenience.
* if this was your 12 year old little daughter.....( think about it )
this is to all of the treads supporting the D.C.transit gestapos.
& not directed to anyone & or anybody who posted on this thread(s)
if this shoe were on your foot & this were your little girl, beloved (daughter)
your would be singing a whole new & different tune!!& you KNOW i am right on this folks!!!!!
If one teaches their daughter to respect the law, they don't have this problem.
-Hank
* this did not rise to the level of handcuffs rough BRUTAL arrest strip/drug searches again!!! i repeat verbal warnings / citations / ticket/ summons to court.
@ about 16 years ago i drove a school bus for the atlanta city schools all the kids & teeenagers were not all criminals,& gangs etc..
all i had to do was "look at them" believe me they did not mess with me! a few citations for eating on the bus maybe one or two thats it!!
one tall bald headed black man in military camos & they knew i meant business! ( smile ) i was frendly kind loving & BUT FIRM & fair with them!!
if i was the d.c. police i would have made this girl throw her food away with a warning ( verbal at first ) !!!!
that would have done it !!!!!!
Please also post your definition of brutal. It also may differ from that of the rest of society.
-Hank
4 posts & you said nothing !!
Hey man.....i totally agree with you,these transit companies are becomeing more like a police states within themselvs,and the worst part is that we the public must put up with this b.s.they treat us the paying public like crap.....i think there should be a privatte groupe of people that control the so called laws these transit companies force on us,like that girl should never have gone that far...i'd sue the asses off them.
thank you very much sir i appreciate that i know if these dads out here ( subtalkers ) with daughters had been done this way they certanly would sue & collect a big payment & put a STOP to all of this
for sure!! you are 100% absolutely right & correct !!
Having had my soon-to-be-wife and mother of our future children read the story and your posts, she had 2 things to say after I changed the context so that it would be OUR daughter in that young lady's shoes:
1-This guy (Salaam) is nuts.
2-Lesson Learned. Blatant disregard deserves punishment. Our theoretical child whould have been admonished. It would also show that we did not impart the proper wisdom upon that child as to what happens when one commits a crime, no matter how minor. Some further instruction and possible disciplinary action would result, and the fine would come out of her allowance.
-Hank
1-this guy (Hank) is nuts
2-Hank ducks what he would do if his daughter was handcuffed/strip/searched/drugsearched for the TINY litle infraction of possesion of food in the washington d.c. rail station/trains!
mr nut (Hank) would sue to the highest & he knows it !
You obviously cannot handle THE TRUTH If you could, you would not be in constant denial, constantly misinformed, and so consistantly moronic about basic tenents of life.
-Hank
* oh you are god almighty with your silly little post ?
hell ain't half full / hank!!!
Yeah, it's clearing space for all you brutal SOBs; OJ Simpson, Justin Volpe, Slobodan Milosevic, and you.
Oh, wait. You haven't committed any beatings, murders, sex assaults, or ethnic cleansing. I guess you're not brutal.
-Hank
* you 3 posters are so dammed sick !! please seek professional help!!
as for me i shoot digital & still transit related photography/ viedeotography & yes all peaceful.....now about yourself / rail transit related & is it too difficult to remain on topic ??
or are we asking for too much here ??
"as for me i shoot digital & still transit related photography/ viedeotography & yes all peaceful....."
Yes you do salaam. And in most instances you do it without permission or without a permit. You do it fully aware that you are violating some system rule, some statute or some law. I am not inventing this, salaam. These are from your own postings. Given your own attitude toward transit laws, it is no suprise that you find the acts of this young lady, excusable. By your own admission, you are a law breaker. By your own words, we know how you feel about the police. From your prior postings, we know you sympathize with the law breaker and not those who risk their own safety to enforce the rules of society. Finally, from observation, we all know that when the facts of a situation do not fit your needs, you have no problem with re-inventing the facts to fit your needs. You have no credibility here, salaam. Don't hide behind the argument of "OFF TOPIC" . We all see you for what you are.
" yes miss. dude, i did " remember mam, " ladies first" ....
So you think that I'm a woman? And you think Hank's a woman? Gee salaam, since you can't tell the difference that kind of makes me wonder who (or what) you are married to. You must be spending too much time in jail, salaam
* I know you must be suffering from pms ( smile )....
dont worry am married to somebody else & not looking!!
thank you mam.!!
KD Salaam, for the record the word is spelled ma'am.
oh yes ma'am dude
* you 3 posters are so dammed sick !! please seek professional help!!
as for me i shoot digital & still transit related photography/ viedeotography & yes all peaceful.....now about yourself / rail transit related & is it too difficult to remain on topic ??
or are we asking for too much here ?? eh hank??
That's it try to hide behind "being on topic" when YOU have been doing nothing but engaging in personal attacks for the past week, so typical and we're ALL tired of it. GIVE IT A REST ALREADY.
Peace,
ANDEE
no i am not the one engagaging in personal attacks just defending myself against personal attacks of others yes i am weary from this as well why cant they just quit andee??
It has nothing to do with the truth, Hank. Salaam gets aroused when he fantasizes about 12 year old girls getting strip searched. Another case of arrested development.
* you hank & pigs are sick... to the rest of the GOOD subtalkers this posts says everything about this poster & the other 3 !! & thats all!
We're sick? It's you with the strip-search fantasy. Get help, my friend and have a happy thanksgiving !!
thank you very much sir i appreciate that i know if these dads out here ( subtalkers ) with daughters had been done this way they certanly would sue & collect a big payment & put a STOP to all of this
for sure!! you are 100% absolutely right & correct !!..
i totally agree with your post 100% finally someome makes sese on this
!!!!!!! i would sue them too !! & so would everybody else!
This is kinda like the old saying....put a frog in boiling water and he jumps out, but put him cold water and slowly raise the heat he'll boil to death....this is how some people react to the stupid dumb laws we have in this country,it becomes so sutle over time we don't react untill it bites us in the butt.again we need someone to govern the transit companies.....
* thank you sir you stole my thunder, & i do not mind!! finally a few posters here who tell the truth & stand for what it right!!!
& i like your statement here on the frog in the water !!
Thanks,i'm for security don't get me wrong,but let's use a little common sense in this case,why not just hold the girl in detention no handcufs no fingerprinting no strip search just hold the girl untill her parents are notified and let her parents take it from there,this is not the soviet union this is America the last time i checked,i think some people don't care how far the so called "law" will go UNTILL it happens to them,let's just pray that the ones who are concerned far out number the ones who don't.....i'm done with this issue...on to the subways....thanks.
Oh my gosh, are you guys still on this issue? It was wrong, although metro had their reasons. There is nothing we can do about it now! What's done is done! Talk about more interesting things. Right now we are just saying the same things over and over again for crying out loud!
I can't believe how much energy has been devoted to this subject!
If only it could be channeled towards keeping a certain rollercoaster in Coney Island :)
--Mark
* tell that to madam train dude !!
While I am against overpolicing, and would prefer a dirty subway over the iron fist of the law. Handcuffing is for the protection of the police officer. The cop has NO WAY of knowing what the person is capable of doing, and it's not like cuffing is a painful, inhumane thing to do.
thank you karl m ex new yorker !! i agree with you 1000%!!!
Karl, I don't know why Salaam brought up strip searching in this thread. The original article never said anything about the girl being strip searched and I doubt very much that she was. As far as fingerprinting is concerned in NYC they would not fingerprint a 12 yr old for eating on a train however Washington might have different procedures which you have to respect. As far as handcuffs are concerned that is a safety issue and as a police sergeant I would write up and discipline any officer who brought in ANY prisoner uncuffed no matter what their age, gender, or offense was.
On the other hand if any of my men brought in a 12 year old for nothing other than eating on a subway (unless she had a bad attitude) that cop would probably end up on my sh-t list!
the lawyer & family & a witnes on this story etc. & you can minimize the horror of what happened to this little girl since it did not happen to YOUR daughter in which you would sue to the cows come home!!
A witness? To what? Do they have a witness to the strip-search? Bet you wish it was you, Salaam, do you ever proof-read the garbage you post to see if it sounds believable - or credible. This isn't the O J trial. Facts actually do count here! You have still to post a verifiable or credible source for the information about the strip-search. You can call me madam dude or you can hide behind the claim of an 'off-topic' post. However, until you start to post credible information, you will remain THE VILLAGE IDIOT.
You do realize that Salaam didn't read ANY of the published reports on this, and the girl was NOT strip-searched. I've asked Salaam to provide his definition of a strip search, because I feel he has a different definition of it than the rest of us.
-Hank
* when it happens to your daughter lets see how much B.S. you post then !! ok ??...!
Were you born this way, or did you get hit on the head? Please explain your definition of 'Strip-search' and 'Brutal', so we can understand what your talking about.
I don't post 'B.S.' as you call it. I post a sound opinion based on known fact, and do not make assumptions based on the reputation of a few bad seeds within our society.
-Hank
* ladies!! chill out man!! dont have a cow !!
>>do not make assumptions based on
>>the reputation of a few bad seeds
>> within our society.
Line of the Week.
..not to mention easier said than done.
like the typical B.S. you post many times the brutality heaped on your 12 year old daughter being called a bad seed you would holler!!
after your daughter gets cuffed strip searched you would go into orbit yourself!!mr. born yesterday!! an outrage an injustice !!
so your daughter finishes off her meal in a subway station?? that gives them the right to violate your small helpless defenseless 12 year old daughter!! hell yea hank you would love those transit cops!!
Please take your Lithium.
-Hank
admit it hank !! you have a crush on me !!
A crush FOR you, more likely. (Orange! :)) But fear not, you're now number two on my hit parade. Jersey Mike has topped you is his ignorance.
-Hank
( come on ladies ! )!!!
* if this was your 12 year old little daughter.....( think about it )
this is to all of the treads supporting the D.C.transit gestapos.
& not directed to anyone & or anybody who posted on this thread(s)
if this shoe were on your foot & this were your little girl, beloved (daughter)
your would be singing a whole new & different tune!!& you KNOW i am right on this folks!!!!!
If one teaches their daughter to respect the law, they don't have this problem.
-Hank
* this did not rise to the level of handcuffs rough BRUTAL arrest strip/drug searches again!!! i repeat verbal warnings / citations / ticket/ summons to court.
@ about 16 years ago i drove a school bus for the atlanta city schools all the kids & teeenagers were not all criminals,& gangs etc..
all i had to do was "look at them" believe me they did not mess with me! a few citations for eating on the bus maybe one or two thats it!!
one tall bald headed black man in military camos & they knew i meant business! ( smile ) i was frendly kind loving & BUT FIRM & fair with them!!
if i was the d.c. police i would have made this girl throw her food away with a warning ( verbal at first ) !!!!
that would have done it !!!!!!
Please also post your definition of brutal. It also may differ from that of the rest of society.
-Hank
4 posts & you said nothing !!
Hey man.....i totally agree with you,these transit companies are becomeing more like a police states within themselvs,and the worst part is that we the public must put up with this b.s.they treat us the paying public like crap.....i think there should be a privatte groupe of people that control the so called laws these transit companies force on us,like that girl should never have gone that far...i'd sue the asses off them.
thank you very much sir i appreciate that i know if these dads out here ( subtalkers ) with daughters had been done this way they certanly would sue & collect a big payment & put a STOP to all of this
for sure!! you are 100% absolutely right & correct !!
Having had my soon-to-be-wife and mother of our future children read the story and your posts, she had 2 things to say after I changed the context so that it would be OUR daughter in that young lady's shoes:
1-This guy (Salaam) is nuts.
2-Lesson Learned. Blatant disregard deserves punishment. Our theoretical child whould have been admonished. It would also show that we did not impart the proper wisdom upon that child as to what happens when one commits a crime, no matter how minor. Some further instruction and possible disciplinary action would result, and the fine would come out of her allowance.
-Hank
1-this guy (Hank) is nuts
2-Hank ducks what he would do if his daughter was handcuffed/strip/searched/drugsearched for the TINY litle infraction of possesion of food in the washington d.c. rail station/trains!
mr nut (Hank) would sue to the highest & he knows it !
You obviously cannot handle THE TRUTH If you could, you would not be in constant denial, constantly misinformed, and so consistantly moronic about basic tenents of life.
-Hank
* oh you are god almighty with your silly little post ?
hell ain't half full / hank!!!
Yeah, it's clearing space for all you brutal SOBs; OJ Simpson, Justin Volpe, Slobodan Milosevic, and you.
Oh, wait. You haven't committed any beatings, murders, sex assaults, or ethnic cleansing. I guess you're not brutal.
-Hank
* you 3 posters are so dammed sick !! please seek professional help!!
as for me i shoot digital & still transit related photography/ viedeotography & yes all peaceful.....now about yourself / rail transit related & is it too difficult to remain on topic ??
or are we asking for too much here ??
"as for me i shoot digital & still transit related photography/ viedeotography & yes all peaceful....."
Yes you do salaam. And in most instances you do it without permission or without a permit. You do it fully aware that you are violating some system rule, some statute or some law. I am not inventing this, salaam. These are from your own postings. Given your own attitude toward transit laws, it is no suprise that you find the acts of this young lady, excusable. By your own admission, you are a law breaker. By your own words, we know how you feel about the police. From your prior postings, we know you sympathize with the law breaker and not those who risk their own safety to enforce the rules of society. Finally, from observation, we all know that when the facts of a situation do not fit your needs, you have no problem with re-inventing the facts to fit your needs. You have no credibility here, salaam. Don't hide behind the argument of "OFF TOPIC" . We all see you for what you are.
" yes miss. dude, i did " remember mam, " ladies first" ....
So you think that I'm a woman? And you think Hank's a woman? Gee salaam, since you can't tell the difference that kind of makes me wonder who (or what) you are married to. You must be spending too much time in jail, salaam
* I know you must be suffering from pms ( smile )....
dont worry am married to somebody else & not looking!!
thank you mam.!!
KD Salaam, for the record the word is spelled ma'am.
oh yes ma'am dude
* you 3 posters are so dammed sick !! please seek professional help!!
as for me i shoot digital & still transit related photography/ viedeotography & yes all peaceful.....now about yourself / rail transit related & is it too difficult to remain on topic ??
or are we asking for too much here ?? eh hank??
That's it try to hide behind "being on topic" when YOU have been doing nothing but engaging in personal attacks for the past week, so typical and we're ALL tired of it. GIVE IT A REST ALREADY.
Peace,
ANDEE
no i am not the one engagaging in personal attacks just defending myself against personal attacks of others yes i am weary from this as well why cant they just quit andee??
It has nothing to do with the truth, Hank. Salaam gets aroused when he fantasizes about 12 year old girls getting strip searched. Another case of arrested development.
* you hank & pigs are sick... to the rest of the GOOD subtalkers this posts says everything about this poster & the other 3 !! & thats all!
We're sick? It's you with the strip-search fantasy. Get help, my friend and have a happy thanksgiving !!
thank you very much sir i appreciate that i know if these dads out here ( subtalkers ) with daughters had been done this way they certanly would sue & collect a big payment & put a STOP to all of this
for sure!! you are 100% absolutely right & correct !!..
i totally agree with your post 100% finally someome makes sese on this
!!!!!!! i would sue them too !! & so would everybody else!
This is kinda like the old saying....put a frog in boiling water and he jumps out, but put him cold water and slowly raise the heat he'll boil to death....this is how some people react to the stupid dumb laws we have in this country,it becomes so sutle over time we don't react untill it bites us in the butt.again we need someone to govern the transit companies.....
* thank you sir you stole my thunder, & i do not mind!! finally a few posters here who tell the truth & stand for what it right!!!
& i like your statement here on the frog in the water !!
Thanks,i'm for security don't get me wrong,but let's use a little common sense in this case,why not just hold the girl in detention no handcufs no fingerprinting no strip search just hold the girl untill her parents are notified and let her parents take it from there,this is not the soviet union this is America the last time i checked,i think some people don't care how far the so called "law" will go UNTILL it happens to them,let's just pray that the ones who are concerned far out number the ones who don't.....i'm done with this issue...on to the subways....thanks.
Oh my gosh, are you guys still on this issue? It was wrong, although metro had their reasons. There is nothing we can do about it now! What's done is done! Talk about more interesting things. Right now we are just saying the same things over and over again for crying out loud!
I can't believe how much energy has been devoted to this subject!
If only it could be channeled towards keeping a certain rollercoaster in Coney Island :)
--Mark
* tell that to madam train dude !!
While I am against overpolicing, and would prefer a dirty subway over the iron fist of the law. Handcuffing is for the protection of the police officer. The cop has NO WAY of knowing what the person is capable of doing, and it's not like cuffing is a painful, inhumane thing to do.
thank you karl m ex new yorker !! i agree with you 1000%!!!
Karl, I don't know why Salaam brought up strip searching in this thread. The original article never said anything about the girl being strip searched and I doubt very much that she was. As far as fingerprinting is concerned in NYC they would not fingerprint a 12 yr old for eating on a train however Washington might have different procedures which you have to respect. As far as handcuffs are concerned that is a safety issue and as a police sergeant I would write up and discipline any officer who brought in ANY prisoner uncuffed no matter what their age, gender, or offense was.
On the other hand if any of my men brought in a 12 year old for nothing other than eating on a subway (unless she had a bad attitude) that cop would probably end up on my sh-t list!
the lawyer & family & a witnes on this story etc. & you can minimize the horror of what happened to this little girl since it did not happen to YOUR daughter in which you would sue to the cows come home!!
A witness? To what? Do they have a witness to the strip-search? Bet you wish it was you, Salaam, do you ever proof-read the garbage you post to see if it sounds believable - or credible. This isn't the O J trial. Facts actually do count here! You have still to post a verifiable or credible source for the information about the strip-search. You can call me madam dude or you can hide behind the claim of an 'off-topic' post. However, until you start to post credible information, you will remain THE VILLAGE IDIOT.
You do realize that Salaam didn't read ANY of the published reports on this, and the girl was NOT strip-searched. I've asked Salaam to provide his definition of a strip search, because I feel he has a different definition of it than the rest of us.
-Hank
* when it happens to your daughter lets see how much B.S. you post then !! ok ??...!
Were you born this way, or did you get hit on the head? Please explain your definition of 'Strip-search' and 'Brutal', so we can understand what your talking about.
I don't post 'B.S.' as you call it. I post a sound opinion based on known fact, and do not make assumptions based on the reputation of a few bad seeds within our society.
-Hank
* ladies!! chill out man!! dont have a cow !!
>>do not make assumptions based on
>>the reputation of a few bad seeds
>> within our society.
Line of the Week.
..not to mention easier said than done.
like the typical B.S. you post many times the brutality heaped on your 12 year old daughter being called a bad seed you would holler!!
after your daughter gets cuffed strip searched you would go into orbit yourself!!mr. born yesterday!! an outrage an injustice !!
so your daughter finishes off her meal in a subway station?? that gives them the right to violate your small helpless defenseless 12 year old daughter!! hell yea hank you would love those transit cops!!
Please take your Lithium.
-Hank
admit it hank !! you have a crush on me !!
A crush FOR you, more likely. (Orange! :)) But fear not, you're now number two on my hit parade. Jersey Mike has topped you is his ignorance.
-Hank
( come on ladies ! )!!!
"Funny, seems to me that crime in the subway has dramatically decreased since they started doing farebeating sweeps. Someone
willing to kill or rape isn't going to givashit about paying a subway fare."
Your entire (prior) post was talking about farebeaters in the subway - see above.
Well, I already told you why I think arresting children for this is not an appropriate enforcement action. Yes, I know it is standard procedure (as I said in at least one previous post), but that doesn't make it appropriate.
Also, how will detaining children for any infraction make it any safer for them? If you are worried about subway travel to begin with, than perhaps the child should not be on the subway at all, rather than being detained there even longer.
-turnstiles
In this case, it may not make a difference. In other cases, it might. If you pick up a child for tresspassing in the tunnel, what were his intentions; vandalism, suicide, or going for a walk? With a parent present, the responsibility is removed from the police.
Did you know that in New York the school is responsible for the safety of the child until they arrive safely at home?
-Hank
Did you know that in New York the school is responsible for the safety of the child until they arrive safely at home?
In that case the school can do something. But it's redundant to face legal problems from the police and the school.
The other thread was deleted. Godwin's Law. Keep up the Nazi kick, it'll hit again.
-Hank
* if that had been your daughter you would hire a lawyer quick fast & in a hurry folks & sue until the cows come home!! ( & to the rest of the threads on this also ) & you would be the first to call them food nazis & yes i did read she was strip searched handcuffed etc. how cool calm & collected you all who shoot off at the mouth would be if that was your daughter maybe even your son as well. i think not & you all know i am right about this. at a public transit station in d.c.!!
finally a summons, ticket, or firm verbal warning, could have been also given she would throw the food away & your godwins law will hit where it really belongs!! not just to the idiot who posted this etc...
the d.c. transit gestapos must not have anything else better to do!!
"yes i did read she was strip searched"
Where did you read this, Salam? What is your source of information, Salam? For once come clean and let us know where you get this great inside information.
Please, you never read anything past the headline. If my child was treated in the manner that this young lady was treated, once knowing the reason behind it, I would have no fight. No lawyer with 1/2 a brain (which is all many of them have) would take a case where there is no cause for it.
Please stop Godwinizing this thread, lest it be deleted again because of your nonsensical rantings.
-Hank
Salaam, you are so way off on this one.
If it had been my daughter, then I would have agreed with the police in this case. The lesson being: if you violate the rules then you must suffer the consequences, and then I'd leave it at that. You better believe that she would never do it again. And if she did, then she had better be a lot more scared of me than the cops.
And as far as the "strip-search", WHERE IN THE WORLD DID YOU READ THIS??? If she had been strip-searched, then Al Sharpton and his merrymen would have hopped on the first greyhound bus down to DC and the media would be giving it a LOT more coverage.
Were you reading this from the Washington Post or the Final Call?
Who says you well get caught. On the popular NPR show Car Talk, the producer was in DC drinking a cup of Starbucks Coffie when some cop comes up to him and starts to write him a ticket. Then a guy walks buy eating an apple and the cop hands the producer the ticket, tells him not to move and goes after the apple guy. A train pulls up and the producer boards it and gets away scott free. He has since become a sysbol to all oppressed subway snackers and on the show he has been given the nickname "subway Fugitive".
Obviously, there aren't transit police everywhere and you may not always get caught. You may never get caught. Since it is luck of the draw, you are better off not eating at all instead of eating and hoping the police never see you because if you travel often enough, TP will find you.
>>> And would you be so "pro zero tolerance" if your daughter had been violated to the far extreme including public strip searches <<<
Where did you get the information that this girl was strip-searched? The news reports did not say so. Also, no strip searches of anyone are done in public.
Tom
<< >>> And would you be so "pro zero tolerance" if your daughter had been violated to the far extreme including public strip searches <<<
Where did you get the information that this girl was strip-searched? The news reports did not say so. Also, no strip searches of anyone are done in public. >>
Now, now, Old Tom...since when does Salaam ever confuse the issue with fact?
Bravo to the DC system for maintaining their zero tollerance policy about food in the system. I wish tne NY MTA had the foresight to adopt a similar one. Yesterday, at Wyandanch, a 'customer' boarded my train. He rested his coffee on a handrail, from which it promptly fell when the train started to move. He made no effort to clean up the spill, hence, the coffee spread throughout that half of the car - brown waves lapping at our shoes.
Two things are evident in this story. First, the DC system has a zero tollerance for food in the system and this is widely (if not universally) known and the enforce it. Second, the station is a hang-out for teens. It's also clear that this particular teen's mother is more interested in teaching her daughter that some laws should be ignored instead of good citizenship.
By the way Salaam, it's nice to see that even after your recent trip to NYC, you have not lost your unique ability to twist any story involving police into more of your anti-police hate crap.
There was no strip search. Her book bag was searched. Why they had to do that right there in the Metro station, I don't know. The whole thing does seem a bit much, but let's not accuse the police of things they didn't do.
* I did read on an internet news post ( in which is not longer news )& is gone off the internet as a top news story, that there was stripsearch drug strip search handcuffing in public ( like she had comitted a violent assult ) others & her family were interviewed on this & they confirmed this as well ( answer to all of the threads Q&A etc. ) But once as most of you willfully refuse to answer again & again... if this was your daughter & even your son you would first run down to the washington D.C. gestapo transit sheriffs department FIRST hug & kiss them all tell them what a wonderful job they did if this were your daughter right folks??
& or U would go to the first lawyer and sue until the cows come home?
a summons to court, ticket,citation,& a very nice VERBAL warning could have been given instead then you all would have a case & sone common sense ( in which seems to be hard to come by here ) in your threads about how transit sheriffs / cops are here to serve & protect the transit public & not behave like they are still active service of the old KGB or some gestapo outfit! agressive handcuff arrests are for a certan type of person(s) not some little non violent peaceful co-operative student ,little girl on her way home from school riding the subway in washington dc, grow up & get a life folks !!
Oh, bullshit. She was SEARCHED, not STRIP SEARCHED. That means the checked her pockets and possessions, and patted her down to ensure she was not concealing anything. Please return when your reading comprehension scores come up.
-Hank
You never know when someone could be carrying a concealed muffin.
My God! I have found myself agreeing with the one and only Salaam Allah. Whats next? The Hillary 2004 PAC? Well, anyway as he mentioned there are better ways of punishing people who eat in the subway. Try:
-- Writing a citation
-- Summons them to appear in court
But for gods sake dont arrest a poor 12 year old for eating a snack. I mean she wasnt even eating it inside a car; she was eating it in the station where there are plenty of trashcans. I hope I dont get arrested for J-Walking tomorrow.
I half agree here.
She should have been given a citation. If she had not ID, then she would have to be taken into custody.
* I am only asking for humane fair treatment for this litle girl & for everyone. she probably was finishing of her meal near a trashcan where she planned to throw all of the remains into the closest can! another thing the dc gestapos could have done was to ASK her nicely to throw her food away & or exit the station with her snack & finish it outside
ok she entered the station too soon before she finished off the small remains of her meal on the way home from school.
now that you see the light on this, my beef is that did this so called
VIOLENT AGRAVATED ASSULT(eating a small snack inside the d.c. station)
rise to the level of handcuffs strip searches drug searches arrest??
be careful not to jay walk because at this rate you could get the death penality for that @ you cant be too careful!!
To a point I agree, but I don't think handcuffs should be used during an arrest unless necessary and I don't think that it was necessary in this case at all. This sort of unwarranted treatment could probably cause additional problems for the police/transit police in the form of complaints or legal action etc. that would otherwise not have arisen if it weren't for the unwarrented (mis)treatment of people under arrest.
-Robert A. King
>>> but I don't think handcuffs should be used during an arrest unless necessary <<<
Use of handcuffs when transporting prisoners is a standard procedure. Police officers found out the hard way in the past that even the most non-threatening detainee could be dangerous if not restrained. For instance, in this case the girl might have panicked and tried to jump out of the police vehicle while it was moving. If that happened and she were injured the police would be getting far more criticism than from using handcuffs.
Tom
Today's NY Times article, High-Speed Train Makes Flashy Debut, mentions that, "The Acela Express has achieved 165 m.p.h., but is for now being held to a top speed of 135 m.p.h. between Washington and New York, because of limits in the signal system. It reaches 150 m.p.h. in parts of Rhode Island and Massachusetts."
Yeah, and other newspaper articles have said it is the track _and_ the caternary that holds down its speed. I really doubt it is _just_ the signal system. If it was, they could redesign it for some of the straighter sections to increase the MAS in those sections for a relatively small amount of money.
Also, I do not believe the train is authorized (by the FRA) to operate in revenue service above 150 mph. 165 was just a test.
Does anyone Know if the Newark City Subway will be running this weekend (Saturday 11/18, and Sunday 11/19) by any chance?
Thanks
Charles
Jump back a few threads to Message 168573 for the answer.
My post was in regard to next weekend; the question was about this past weekend. It's a bit late now, but I believe that there was no PCC service in Newark this past weekend.
Oops, my bad! Sorry, just trying to be helpful. Always seems to backfire...
Pete, Don't let that stop you from continuing trying to be helpful.
That's one of the things this board is all about.
Mr t__:^)
BTW, The ERA Tour is sold out, so if you were thinking of "showing up" better think again. They do very good tours, so you can't procrastinate when you hear of one, like the BMTman & I did.
For us we still have fond memories of the two SubTalk "Field Trips" there last June (1999). I will remember for a long time the sight of the BMTman half outside the back window as we were speeding along.
Mr t__:^)
Acela finally puts the US in the space of high speed rail travel.
At 150 MPH, its fast indeed but still short of Japan and European high speed rail. The bullet trains have a max speed of 180MPH and
the new Maglev trains Japan is working on acheived a max speed of 345MPH.
The high speed trains in Europe range from 180+
That may be 180 kmh, although I don't think that current UK high speed services even manage that at the moment.
Eurostar is 186 MPH, butat the moment only on the French side
Simon
Swindon UK
SOURCE: NJT Website
Only West Side Ave cars will go to Pavonia. Bayonne cars will end at Harborside. Bayonne riders for Newport must change at Liberty State Park station, although both branches will go to Harborside Station.
It's single track from Harborside to Pavonia.
Bayonne riders for Newport must change at Liberty State Park station, although both branches will go to Harborside Station.
Actually, you can change anywhere from LSP to Harborside.
Right. I was quoting from the NJT website.
This thread was at the bottom of the screen so I figured if i replied it would once again be at the top. dOENS'T the guy who posted it feel special>?
Andy Kirk, Railpace Magazine's Amtrak correspondent, posted on their Hot News website that Amtrak will lease 4 MARC trains, 1 MBTA trainset (Boston to New Haven), 2 Shoreline East trainsets (New Haven to Springfield), and 18 NJT MU's for use from next Wednesday through Sunday.
Sigh, no ALP44s show up in Maryland.
Chaohwa
On the hyperlink that chuchubob supplied in his message, there is a partial SEPTA schedule for the special PCC's that are running until the end of December.
I think I saw somewhere else that SEPTA is running a number of special cars this holiday season, incl. Santa specials. Too bad the TA doesn't use it as a gimic to get more folks to use mass transit to shop in the City, e.g. how about a Sat. AM LIRR with one of Santa's helpers on the first car or a Sat. afternoon return with hot choca & cookies.
They could wrap a few subway cars on a few lines ... why not ?
Mr t__:^)
PATCO generally runs Santa-on-board promotions on Saturdays in December.
By any chance, are any of you comeing to Toronto for the PCC fan trip on Sunday, December 3rd?
-Robert King
I'm back after a long absence with a question. It's no secret that the subways don't reach the speeds they did years ago, but I had a chance to ride the SIR this evening, the 5:11 express from St. George to Great Kills.(I was in front---R44 SI #404) While, of course, the window in the cab door was papered over, there used to be a small hole, maybe 3 inches in diameter, which one could peek through. Now THAT'S even papered over, so I had no view (what are they trying to hide??? what's going on in there that I can't watch the rails go by???)
But I digress---between Grasmere and Dongan Hills, it seemed like we really started to move, I mean that feeling where each small bump moved you up or sideways. If I didn't know better (and maybe I don't) I would have thought wew were closing in on 50 mph. Is that possible??? From some things I've read here, it doesn't but I know the difference between 30 and 50, and this seemed an awful lot like it---I really got thrown around.
SIR express trains can reach 50mph. Last time I was on SIR on an express it hit 50mph in that stretch you mentioned.
Thanks for confirming that I wasn't far off in my estimation.
I think they still have field shunt, they're not part of the subway and thus aren't subject to their changes. The SIR cars don't even have brake trippers (the signals have no trip arms anyway, what good will a tripper be).
A small group of SubTalkers did a Field Trip on SIRT ... John joined us for part of it. I wouldn't call the R-44s speedstrs but it was a nice ride just the same.
I just got a few photos scanned & will do a trip report for this site.
Mr t__:^)
Just thought I'd toss in this tidbit: the R-44 set a world speed record for subway cars when it hit 88 mph on a LIRR ROW test run. With half the traction motors disabled, to simulate rush-hour crush loads, the train still managed a respectable 77 mph.
SIR needs a track and signal rebuild if you want the R-44 to run a race...
Maybe the "express" runs might do that if they were late, but I didn't get the impression that on this fairly short two track line that the operators had any reason to bring the speed up between stations.
Mr t__:^)
Doesn't need a track rebuild. The entire line has had its track replaced within the last 5 years.
-Hank
The story goes that after that famous speed test, many of the motors on that train suffered birdcaging of their armature windings.
Not being an electrical engineer, I must ask you to explain the term, "birdcaging." Forgive my ignorance of that specific term.
The source of the reporting of that test was retired MTA engineers, who indicated their general confidence in the cars' ability to handle high-speed service.
Of course, any new technology (which the R-44 represented) would need a shakedown prior to working up to potential (the M-1 battle tank, Acela, the F-14 fighter are prime examples). The R-46 was originally equipped with a lightweight truck from Rockwell International, which then suffered cracks. If I am not mistaken, once standard trucks were substituted, the R-46's proved themselves respectably in service (issues of number of cars and number of doors aside).
[Not being an electrical engineer, I must ask you to explain the term, "birdcaging." Forgive my ignorance of that specific term.]
Me too unless it a HIGH term unique to Denver ;-)
Mr t
I'm not an engineer, either - just a musician who had to get a job in the real world.:-)
Birdcaging refers to a condition when individual strands of wire bow out, taking on the resemblance of a birdcage like the one you see in all those Tweety-Sylvester cartoons. You can try this experiment by taking a piece of stranded wire, say 20 AWG, stripping perhaps 1/2" of insulation, and tinning the exposed strands with solder up to, but not quite reaching the insulation. When it cools, push against the wire ends and you'll see how the untinned strands right at the insulation bow out. That's birdcaging. In the case of the R-44s, the story goes that the centrifugal force generated by the unusually high rpms caused the armature windings to pull away from the core with the same end result.
Thank you very much. Great explanation (and visually intuitive).
I learned something today (and I will try the experiment).
As Dave would say, that's what this site is all about, thanks Steve !
Mr t__:^)
Don't mention it.
No! Don't try it at home! Steve B is a trained professional on a closed road with lots of insurance :)
--Mark
Dumb little question: What do the digital signs look like of SIR? Do they have that space for the route letter like the R44s and R46s on the subway? Or is there just a sign reading "Staten Island Railway"? Or is there a sign at all?
:)Andrew
SIR has no side route signs.
-Hank
Thanks
:)Andrew
And they have no digital signs
Lou's & my Field Trip report is now in Dave's hands look for it to be avail. in the next few days, one of the few photos shows the South end of a train just arrived at the end of the line ... no route number, just the name of the last station.
Mr t__:^)
SIR roll signs just have station names and out of service, some are red for express runs.
I do realize that the SIR is not actually a subway, but since that's all I normally get to ride...
That's fine, we talk about EVERYTHING here.
And nobody will say your message is on topic.
The first vehicle for the JFK-AirTrain system will be arriving early Tuesday morning in New York City from Canada by truck. Keep your eyes pealed and cameras ready!
R-142...
R-142A...
Acela Express...
AirTrain...
It's been quite a time for railroading in NYC!
The city came in at 7 this morning and they are still working (As of 9:30)......A sad site indeed..... I got a few hours of video of the demolition on video.....Another part of Coney Island history down the drain :-(
It's very sad indeed. Especially considering that its sister coaster (the Cyclone) is a registered landmark (of NYC, or federal , I don't know). It has condemned for decades though.
Hey, Mark! Were you able to grab any "souveniors" from the old Thunderbolt before it came down?
I guess the land where the Thunderbolt stood will become the new parking lot for our lovely Mayor Rudy G's minor league stadium.
BMTman
Doug,
Souvenir hunting will be in the next few days :-)
Is that the one that has lain black and charred for the past decades? It looks like it was bombed out in a air raid? I wonder why no attempt was made to fix it up, and it that couldn.t be done, just demolished and carted off. It was nothing but an eye sore in its present form. It sort of epitomizes what has happened to Coney Island. The powers that be have ignored its problems with neglect.
"Is that the one that has lain black and charred for the past decades? It looks like it was bombed out in a air raid? "
Yes, that describes it alright. It looked horrible. It's clearly visible from most parts of Astroland Park standing on what appears to be an otherwise abandoned lot.
It's sad to see some things go. Someone posted that there may have been a third coaster, the Tornado. So, that makes it two down , and one to go.
Yes, there was a Tornado. I only remember that it's first drop was a twist, not straight down like the others.
Does anyone know of a web site for the various amusement parks at Coney Island?
Here's the best Coney Island site that I have found.
Great job Bob. I'm going to Bookmark it on my computer and save it for future reference.
Try www.coneyislandusa.com
Tornado, Cyclone, Thunderbolt.
Somebody there must have been a meteorology enthusiast.
Below is some info from the newsgroup rec.roller-coaster on the Thunderbolt. Turns out the owner brought about it's demise.
Chris.
Steve Urbanowicz wrote:
Horace Bullard owned the Thunderbolt. He had dreams of rebuilding Steeplechase Park when he purchased the land the T-bolt was on, and it was NEVER going to be part of his new park. He had leasing agreements with the city for the surrounding land to do this, but they all fell through, and the baseball stadium is now built on land that was going to be part of the new park. Every single piece of property Bullard owns in Coney Island has sat abandoned and crumbling for years.
So here are some facts:
1. Bullard, from the very beginning, had intentions of demolishing the Thunderbolt when he built his new park. That's as long ago as 1987.
2. The city terminated the leases it had with Bullard so that at least SOMETHING could be built on property that had been sitting vacant.
3. Offers to clean up the Thunderbolt, paint it, etc. FOR FREE, were all turned down -- by BULLARD.
4. Offers to buy it, move it, save it, etc, were all turned down -- by BULLARD.
5. Bullard still owns the property the ride sat on. It will most likely sit vacant and abandoned until he either sells it, or it is confiscated by the city.
The city did not act appropriately in the removal of the T-bolt, and the Brooklyn Cyclones baseball team certainly isn't unhappy that it's gone, but for the past 14 years, the owner of the ride has steadfastly refused any offers to do something to save it, and that included offers made about a month ago. Even now, with efforts underway to save some archival materials from the demolition site, there is one roadblock -- guess who it is???
Steve
for our lovely Mayor Rudy G
Hey Doug,
Is the mayor really lovely?
My favorite one was the one that used to be up the block (South) from the Stillwell Av Station and Nathans, The Tornado.
Two down and one to go? I hope not. If the Thunderbolt and Tornando can go by the way of the T-Rex what could keep some yahoos from eventually doing that to the Cyclone? Perhaps someone should start the ball rolling to make the Cyclone a historical landmark or something like that just to keep it from sharing the same faith as its two brothers. In today's climate anything is possible.
Perhaps someone should start the ball rolling to make the Cyclone a historical landmark or something like that.
Um... It already is.
Remember that being designated a historic landmark is no guarantee of preservation. All it means is that it takes a lot more paperwork before government money can be used to alter and/or demolish it - usually, but not always, more red tape than anyone wants to bother with, hence its de facto survival.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
re the Cyclone as a historic landmark
Remember that being designated a historic landmark is no guarantee of preservation. All it means is that it takes a lot more paperwork before government money can be used to alter and/or demolish it
- usually, but not always, more red tape than anyone wants to bother with, hence its de facto survival.
Nor will landmarking prevent the Cyclone from being abandoned and allowed to lie derelict. In fact, to the extent that landmarking would make renovations and repairs more costly, it might actually increase the possibility of abandonment.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
There is some good news in all of this. The Cyclone is in the historical register and the same can be said for the Wonder Wheel. They're both safe in the meantime. I also want to say that the Parachute Jump is also on the historical register even though it isn't operating anymore. I have seen the Thunderbolt roller coaster and unfortunately it was in poor condition and an eyesore besides. Apparently the city was forced to demolish it because it was in danger of collapse. Maybe if someone has the brains they can build a reproduction of the original Thunderbolt if someone was wise enough to save the blueprints for it.
BMTJeff
Maybe if someone has the brains they can build a reproduction of the original Thunderbolt if someone was wise enough to save the blueprints for it.
Breaths should not be held. People are very demanding when it comes to roller coasters today. Park operators keep having to build bigger, faster, scarier and more schtik-filled coasters, just to keep the crowds coming.
Pete: You are probably right and I have ridden on some great ones, but whether it's my imagination or the fact that I'm big on nostalgia, the Cyclone is still to me the best roller coaster I have ridden on. The fact is I never rode it as a kid. It was too big and too scary. I went for the smaller ones. But once I rode it as a tourist there was nothing else like it. It's fast, rickity, has sharp curves and that first drop is something to behold. Any Cyclone fan must grit his teeth and watch the hair rise on his neck when any possibility of the Cyclone being abandoned is even mentioned. I hope that never happens. It would be criminal.
I agree. I've been on many wooden roller coasters including a couple of newer ones, but my favorite is still the Cyclone.
Gary: It's more than the two of us. I can't count the number of people who have said the same thing. It runs into the dozens. It has to be the ride. I get the sensation on no other ride. The Cyclone must not be destroyed.
Lakeside Park in Denver also has a Cyclone roller coaster. It's by far the most popular ride in the park; however, it doesn't compare to the one at Coney Island.
Steve: That's just the point. There are a lot of Cyclones in this country but it seems to be the consensus that none of them compare to the one at Coney Island. There is just something about that ride that gives you a thrill no other ride can match. Maybe we ought to kidnap messrs Guiliani, Hillary, Pataki, and Schumer and make them ride that attraction. Maybe then we'd get some Coney Island revival action pronto.
I remember walking over to take a gander at the Thunderbolt during our stop at Stillwell on the Farewell to Redbirds fantrip. For some reason, I always liked going over there whenever I visted Coney Island. Maybe it was the ruin-among-the-living-city aspect, I don't know. Anyway, that time I snapped a few pix. Glad I did!
I noticed that the Thunderbolt wasn't purely a wooden roller-coaster. IIRC, only the track-bed was wooden, with most of the body being metal piping. So to the purist, this is not as great a loss as would be the Cyclone.
In the IMAX film, "Across the Sea of Time," which you may have seen at the SONY IMAX theatre, the main character is a little kid who comes to modern-day New York City from back in time -- the turn of the century during the influx of European immigrants. One of the scenes has the little boy sitting in one of the long-neglected roller-coaster cars among the underbrush and charred remains of the Thunderbolt.
Seems we lose our history constantly. I never thought, being a non-native New Yorker, that I would begin to see the past disappear before my eyes after moving here. Even a kid from Pennsylvania can become attached to these places, only to see them slide away. I wonder how much my Grandad could tell me about growing up in Brooklyn (and later Queens), if he were still alive. Would he care? These questions will never be answered.
Farewell, Thunderbolt, I barely knew ye.
Glad to hear you have an emotional feeling for what you saw and what you miss. I grew up for my first 14 years in Brooklyn and Queens, and even though I now live in California I still have an emotional attachment to parts of New York, and Coney Island is part of it. You don;t have to be a native to appreciate tradition and history, and that is why I'm a little perturbed at the city fathers for not appreciating what they have (had) and doing something to rectify what has happened over the past four decades.
I get rather angry at stuff like this, why rely on big busness or the city to get things done ? are any New Yorkers millioneers who hit the lottery and still live in or near the city if so why don't they all team up and part with a small amount and combine that to build whatever.....what a tax writeoff.....
It would take quite a few of them to allocate enough money to revive the amusement park. If there were a lot of them I wouldn't care, just so long as something is done. Realistically speaking, however, it would take an organization with a lot of capital to bring this thing off.
I agree with you, as i too have fond memories of Coney Island and the cyclone,also one of my favorites was the roller coaste at Pallasades amusement park..... skip the bother and skip the fuss take a public service bus,public service shure is great,takes you right up to the gate,.....that motto was fun to hear ,kinda got you ready for summer,that coaster gave one a good scare as one down run aimed you at the Hudson river then turned sharply heading you up river,maby some television ad's asking people would they waint an entertainment center at Coney Island,get a poll going that might be a start,get opinions either way one can't not try somthing.
I remember Palisades Amusement Park as well. Supposedly, it was going to move to somewhere in Sussex County, but that never materialized. I still think about it when I look across the Hudson River when driving along the Henry Hudson Parkway.
WINS is reporting this morning that the coaster had been condemned for quite some time, and its owner never responded to notices. Guess what? He's suing!
-Hank
If it's not operational, either tear it down or revive it. To see it just vegitating in waste and charred remains is nothing but a disgrace. Bring in some Six Flags company type and finally do something to fix up Coney Island. It has been deteriorating for long enough. Maybe build the new Mets stadium near by and make it a complete entertainment and resort center. A sort of Disneyworld. Just thinking out loud. Maybe you New Yorkers could get your girl Hillary to help out since she's so anxious to help "her" state.
Thunderbolt owner Horace Bullard, who failed to develop the site over the years, called Giuliani "a dictator."
"He doesn't like that black people want to create major developments," said Bullard, who is black.
He said he would have fixed problems to save his latest plan for an amusement center.
This Bullard person (owner of the Kansas Fried Chicken chain across Surf Av.) back in the '80s wanted to rebuild the Steeplechase Park. He even was having the new wooden horses handcarved in Germany. (I still have the newspaper clips.) (Coney Island looked so depressing I said I would never go back until this opened. It's now been 14 years. The last time I was ever at Stillwell was on my first ride on the R-68 train which began delivering probably that week.) It was supposed to open in about a couple of years, but several years went, and ground was not even broken (I asked people if anything was going on there). I even spoke to him on the phone, and what he told me was that the city was making it difficult, and that the banks did not have enough faith in the project to finance it. I suggested starting small, just to get it open, and then expand, and he said that would not be profitable. Then, the parachute jump was deemed unsafe, and he was in trouble for that. (But of course, that is landmarked, so someone fixed it.) The house under the rollercoaster was vacated and burned, and Bullard said in the article that they were to be demolished for the new park anyway. Then, I began hearing that he had turned the project over to some black organization, (but he still owned the property. I never knew he was black. A picture of him in one of the articles I have reveals him to look like a typical white guy with curly hair (not kinky).)
Then, I begin hearing of a sports complex again, and here we are today.
So I don't know what and when he was going to go anywhere with his project, and how that would fit in with the sports park, but he just sat on it too long, and this is what happens.
>If it's not operational, either tear it down or revive it. To see it just vegitating in waste and charred remains is nothing but a disgrace. Bring in some Six Flags company type and finally do something to fix up Coney Island. It has been deteriorating for long enough. Maybe build the new Mets stadium near by and make it a complete entertainment and resort center. A sort of Disneyworld.
This is what I've said, especially after seeing how Disney and others transformed Times Square. But my wife points out that the big companies aren't interested in putting something like this in New York. It is a New Jersey/Pennsylvania, or Sun Belt type of thing. Of course, all these bigwig company people can hop a plane to Disneyworld as easy as we could hop a train to Coney Island, so they have their amusement area. But who knows, maybe the Times Sq. redevelopment and the stadium will eventually inspire a Coney Island revival.
205 STREETCONEY ISLANDD|6 AVENUE EXP
re having Six Flags or another park operator take over Coney Island
This is what I've said, especially after seeing how Disney and others transformed Times Square. But my wife points out that the big companies aren't interested in putting something like this in New York. It is a New Jersey/Pennsylvania, or Sun Belt type of thing. Of course, all these bigwig company people can hop a plane to Disneyworld as easy as we could hop a train to Coney Island, so they have their amusement area. But who knows, maybe the Times Sq. redevelopment and the stadium will eventually inspire a Coney Island revival.
Coney Island's small size probably would be too serious an obstacle to overcome. When it comes to amusement parks nowadays, the key word is big. People want mega-parks on the Disney/Six Flags/Busch Gardens/Cedar Point model. Most major park operators probably wouldn't be interested in opening and operating a park with Coney Island's severe space constraints. I suppose the huge nearby market might change matters, but don't bet on it.
All that tells me Pete is that tradition means nothing. All over the country there are amusement parks that proclaim it Coney Island hot dogs, Coney Island atmosphere, Coney Island family feeling. But they are talking throught their hats. The Coney Island they are talking about hasn't existed for over 40 years, and for perhaps the most famous amusement park in American history this is disgraceful. New York should have a city amusement park worthy of its name. I've seen some great done with the revival of several piers in lower Manhattan. Don't tell me there couldn't be something like this done to Coney Island if the city fathers had the will to do it. This is a perfect opportunity for the public and private entities to team up and make a real contribution to bettering the life for New York City residents, besides those who live in the prestigious areass of Manhattan.
I have to agree with almost everything you said, Fred!
We're both out here in California, where everything gets labeled as "New York this" and "New York that" yet none of it is anywhere near the quality of what we grew up with in New York. (They should only know what REAL New York eats are like!!!!)
Even the Nathan's hot dogs out here don't quite have the "gusto" that the ones back there had....someone remarked "It's the sweat of the cook on the grille" that gave them their flavor. Maybe the outlets need to turn off the air conditioning and have their help work up some seat? :-)
I don't think Nathan dogs anywhere taste as good as they do in the original.
Gsry: That was a no brainer and right on the mark. I think I can even smell the original Nathan's hot dogs being grilled in Coney Island, circa 1953. My mouth is starting to water. Do those high and mighty politicos have any idea what's going on? If I am a political leader in New York I would want to turn Coney Island into a showplace. So the rich and uppity don't come, but the tourists and the natives of the lower middle class would flock to the place and it would regain the stature it deserves.
You're not going to get anywhere without appealing to the middle middle class and some of the upper middle class with their buying power.
The orginal Nathans dogs are long gone. Nathans is corporate owned now and serves mass-produced, pre-fab food. If you saw the History of Food series on the History Channel some months back, you would have seen that franks used to be handmade, using intestines as the outer-skin, etc. This is no longer the case, as the skin is now artificial and the innards are machine-processed. I would suspect the difference between a California Nathans dog, a Coney Island Nathans dog, and a Pennsylvania Turnpike Nathans dog is nill. It's all in your head, I'm afraid. :o)
Whether that's the case or not, a Nathan's hot dog still tastes different from the rest. What goes on in the head can mean a great deal to a person as to how he perceives something.
>>>Whether that's the case or not, a Nathan's hot dog still tastes different from the rest.<<<
Sorry, did not mean to impune Nathan's franks so decisively. In fact, I do find them quite tasty. :o)
>>>What goes on in the head can mean a great deal to a person as to how he perceives something.<<<
And, believe me, I'm the last one to advocate thwarting the use of one's head. The imagination is a wonderful, powerful thing. I believe I've conveyed that, more or less, in many of my posts here. I'm reminded of this every time I'm talking to someone, and I launch excitedly into some bit of subway trivia before realizing that the people I'm talking to (like my wife, for example) don't have a clue as to why I give a crap about it. We all find the subway fascinating, while a lot of people merely find it old, smelly, rusty, damp, late, crowded, loud, etc. etc. etc.
Well who cares about them? We know what the subway means to us, and since there are so many of us, we can't be all wrong. The New York subway is very special to all of us on this site and the reasons vary, of course. But a good summation is that we all have some great memories of our times on it. Certainly that's the case with me. In fact, the first thing I do when I get settled in the city is to ride the subway. That will always be a thrill for me.
No, it's not in our heads. What we're all missing is that while you're enjoying a good hot dog and fries, you are also enjoying the parade of trains into and out of Stillwell Avenue. That, and the salt air of the Atlantic Ocean a block away.
(OK - the beggars have to go)
--Mark
See what I mean? They love to brag about New York style food and amusements, but New York leaders don't seem to appreciate it at all. If they did, they would do something about Coney Island. When I visit there I actually wince when I see what has become of it. Believe me, in the late 40's and early 50's it was still one hell of a place, and my late father and living mother attested to me many times what a place it was in the late 20's and even up until WWII.
Black smack, white blight---who gives a crap. If an African-American wants to develop a park and is willing to do it, this is a perfect example of Affirmative Opportunity. Giuiliani wasn;t in power 14 years ago so the the Democrats are just as resposible for this mess as the Republicans. This shouldn't even be a partisan thing, either. If Bullard thinks there was discrimination, there are plenty of law firms that should be glad to represent him is a bias suit. At any rate, color should mean nothing in such a case. What is needed is to remake Coney Island into a real attraction. Not everyone is rich and tourists on a budget could make a day of it in a revived Coney Island. When I hear stuff like this it makes we wonder just what the hell is going on in the political world. I get the impression that the powers that me don't really give a damn about the little guy.
The problem with reviving Coney Island is not so much political, social or financial. Has it ever occurred to anyone that for six months out of the year the place is almost inhospitable? (whipped by winter winds and surf that makes the area attractive only to "Polar Bears and Penguins").
Who in their right minds is going to pump BIG money into an attraction that is based solely on summer season revenues. Not many, I'd guarrantee.
For Coney to be attractive year-round, a developer would have to build a huge enclosure around the Cyclone, Wonder Wheel and other rides so that the weather would not be a deterant for patrons.
This is why modern amusement developments are in areas of the country where the climate changes are not drastic.
BMTman
BMT Man: Your point is well taken, but it wouldn't be impossible to make part of the amusement park mall like. Don't they have such a site in Minnesota. It gets pretty cold there. American ingenuity can accomplish great things, and think of some of the opportunities for recreational activities could be had if they did something like that with Coney Island. To me it is certainly worth looking into. Coney Island has a great reputation out here, but the native Californians are unaware that the Coney Island they celebrate is a thing of the past, and that's sad.
That's also why the Super Bowl is always held in the south and never in Lambeau Field where REAL FOOTBALL belongs.
Cue up John Facenta.:-) "Out on the frozen tundra..."
>>>This is why modern amusement developments are in areas of the country where the climate changes are not drastic. <<<
Then how do you explain Great Adventure?
Peace,
ANDEE
Good point. While there are no huge vacation destination parks such as Disneyworld in cold climates there are many amusement parks in cold states.
Gary: I mentioned yesterday that I had read of a place I believe to be in Minnesota that is an all enclosed amusement park in a mall. You mean you couldn't do that with part of Coney Island? It would take some will and imagination but I feel it could be done. I just wonder if Coney Island was in Manhattan would the city and state fathers move with more dispatch to improve things. That Coney Island is in Brooklyn might have something to do with it. Brooklyn was an outer borough and was always playing second fiddle to Manhattan when I was a kid. That is why anyone with Brooklyn roots used to root like hell for the Dodgers. That team gave the borough identification. That Coney Island, and the Brooklyn Bridge were the things that gave us pride because we didn't have anything else to brag about even though we had a couple of pretty good colleges as well.
Why not just rebuild Steeplechase Park? Most of that was enclosed.
Part of the problem is that who wants to schlep to the amusement park wearing a heavy winter coat, boots and gloves? Where do you store them when you get there?
Perhaps a covered walkway between Stillwell and the covered (or domed)amusement park, complete with a moving walkway a la Caesar's Palace, would help.
I just wonder if Coney Island was in Manhattan would the city and state fathers move with more dispatch to improve things.
They would probably demolish it and build a sterile complex of office and apartment buildings with plaques in the fountained plazas noting the locations of what they demolished.
It would be called Coney City or something.
Pork: Come to think of it, you're probably right. Manhattanites aren't much in for amusement parks. The theatre and wine and cheese parties are more in their crosshairs.
My sister worked for a time in an office building which stands on the very site of the old Metropolitan Opera House, at 39th St. and Broadway. She said there was a commemorative plaque which stated this.
I'd love to see it, but somehow I doubt it will happen.
The available land in Joisey made the place attractive to investors regardless of the fact that it was located in the Northeast. (Some of the amusements at GA are indeed enclosed -- the arcade games, etec. Only the larger rollercoaster type rides are exposed.)
AND don't forget that when it first opened, Great Adventure featured a much larger area incorporating the Warner Brothers attraction, Jungle Habitat (the failed "animals are loose -- people are caged" idea theme park). Remember that fiasco???
BMTman
I remember Jungle Habitat, although I never visited it. We were still living in POmpton Plains at the time. It was in West Milford, NJ.
Isn't that the same as the Safari?
I'm not sure if they (Warner Bros.) changed the name, but I believe the 'Jungle Habitat' theme park went kaput about ten or fifteen years ago. Alot of the problems stemmed from some patrons just being plain stupid -- like trying to "pet" a full-grown lion, or feeding a family of gorillas -- only to have their limbs removed by the hungry animals. It was a combination of 'stupid human tricks' and bad publicity that killed the idea (at least for Six Flaggs).
I believe Disney has a similar themed park, but with a more controlled environment for animals at their Orlando location.
BMTman
You can drive through the Safari, only tame animals are uncaged, others are behind fences.
So there were lions actually within contact of the people?
Yes, there was a well publicized case at 'Jungle Habitat' where a guy (I believe he was a cab driver) stuck his arm out his car window and a lion graciously took it from him.
I doubt if that guy ever tried the same stunt again.
BMTman
Not with that arm, anyway ;)
Out here in Southern California we have three very outstanding theme parks, Disneyland in Anaheim, Knotts Berry Farm in Buena Park, and Magic Mountain in Valencia. They are great theme parks and a joy to visit, but Knotts is not that large and what has been done there could be done to Coney Island. I'm convinced that if Knotts was added to Coney Island the people would pack the place. Also a cover could be added for winter fun. No one has answered me on this, but I did read of such an enclosed theme park in Minnestota----right within a big shopping mall. I don't see why that can't work in Coney Island.
It would be expensive but it would be worth it in the long run. Tell me the truth, doesn't it disappoint all of you to see what Coney Island has become, and what it could become with a grand effort.?
The enclosed area in Bloomington, MN is just a mall. There is a roller coaster within, but it is not an amusement area.
So we could go one better---in fact, make that five, ten, twenty times better. Thanks for the info.
[Tell me the truth, doesn't it disappoint all of you to see what Coney Island has become, and what it could become with a grand effort.?]
Yes, in a way. BUT, I not ashamed by it. After all, Coney Island has become what it has become largely due to the fact of competition from places like Disneyland (and World), Six Flaggs, and Bush Gardens. Not from some grand plan of urban neglect.
REMEMBER FOLKS: it the hayday of Coney Island NONE OF THESE OTHER THEME PARKS EXISTED! Urgo, Coney Island was THE ONLY amusement park of its kind up till the middle of the 20th Century. People came to Coney back then from ALL OVER THE COUNTRY (and overseas as well).
Let's face facts: Coney Island is no longer the only "game in town" (and hasn't been for nearly 40 years) and also suffers from having out-dated aracde games that are not geared toward today's "virtual-reality" preaned audiences, so that's also a big part of the problem.
BMTman
>>> Coney Island has become what it has become largely due to the fact of competition from places like Disneyland (and World), Six Flaggs, and Bush Gardens. <<<
Coney Islands troubles go back further than Disneyland and the others. The real culprits are TV and air conditioning. What drew the crowds to Coney Island in its heyday, 1900-1950, was easy transportation by subway and relief from summer heat at the beach with interesting entertainment. It was a destination in the summer just a bit farther than the local movie theater, and the same thing that killed the local air conditioned theaters killed Coney Island. Coney Island is not the only beach front amusement area that has died. Most of them have. Although it is good to mourn the passing of Coney Island as a great amusement area, it is unrealistic to think it can be economically resurrected.
Tom
Tom's reasoning is certainly insightful, but I wouldn't call Coney Island "dead."
For one thing, it's still America's greatest example of a working family's park - you can go somewhere and have a good time on the rides for not very much money, compared to Disneyland or Six Flags - and it's closer and more accessible than the big theme parks, thanks to the subway. Plus, Coney Island is more than rides - it's the Aquarium, the beach, the boardwalk, the food, the atmosphere. (And with a hundred cops always around, there isn't much crime hazard there, either). And Disneyland can seem plastic, gaudy, atificial, sterile at times.
I still visit and manage to have a good time. Judging from the crowds I encounter, other people seem to enjoy it as well.
I have no quarrel with those who say it needs improving. But dead? I don't think so.
I've got to agree: the atmosphere is still there, and it's not the same anywhere else. Great Adventure is crowded but feels frantic, and it is very expensive. (It also seems to lack the non-thrill adult rides that so many other parks have.) Coney Island still has more of a carnival feel to it.
Yeah, and Great Adventure has gotten a stigma of 'gang activity' since having become the destination of many rauncous 'frats' over the past 10 years or so. Remember the stories of shootings and stabbings that occured there in the early 90's?
I stopped going there around that time.
Coney Island is realitvely problem free. I see many families bringning their young children to the arcade and bumper-car rides. It is not all 'gloom and doom' at Coney Island, BUT the place could use a 'polish'.
BMTman
Now we're talking. Is Guiliani and Pataki listening? If I knew a rich Arabian oilman, wow, maybe I could pilfer some of his dough and really spruce up the place. I would, however, do NOTHING with the Cyclone. That is never to be touched.
George Bush ands his billionaire running partner could invest, but I forgot Brooklyn is a Democratic town, especially in Coney island.
Bob: Someone on this site called me horse's ass a week or so ago, and he was right-----but only on a technicality. When politics rears its ugly head I become a totally different person. That barb at Bush and Cheney was uncalled for. There have been numerous leaders in Brooklyn and New York in general, most of them Democrats, and still Coney Island is just barely holding its own. There is enough blame to go around, and maybe a little bi-partisan support would help matters. Tell you what. Let's start a collection on this site. I will kick in the first ten dollars and we all can go from there.
Disneyland just raise it s price again this year to $48.00 ADULT $44.00 CHILD, FOR A 1 DAY PASS
And this Republican thinks that sucks to high heaven. What about the middle class families? It's sorry enough that football and basketball games are being priced out of the range of the ordinary family. Do they have to get screwed at the theme parks as well? That is why maybe a bunch of Coney Island type amusement parks might be the answer. Maybe the people going wouldn't have that much money, but enough of them going could enable the parks to make a profit. And the kids would have a blast.
Just a suggestion for those of you looking for an alternative if you are within driving distance: There is a park in Elysburg, PA, Knoebels Amusement Resort, that is unlike any of the typical parks. Parking is free, there is no entry fee, there are tables for picnics, food in the park stands is cheap, and the ride tickets are cheap. They have two good wooden roller coasters and many other rides.
And, just to put a transit spin on it, for a long time the changing rooms for the swimming pool were old streetcars. (I've been told that they have modernized in recent years, however.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>...changing rooms for the swimming pool were old streetcars. (I've been told that they have modernized in recent years, however.) <<<
Are they LRVs now? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
My brother keeps on recommending Knoebels. He swears by that place. Now that I see someone else recommending the place, I really gotta go.
It's one the last of the old-time parks. You won't
have to pay entry for people who don't go on the
rides, nor will you feel you have to go on rides to
get back what it cost to enter. The feel is relaxing
even if you just walk around and watch. There are,
however, many rides including two trains, two
carousels, a large ferris wheel, two wooden roller
coasters, a boat ride and more.
Knoebels
>>> Now that I see someone else recommending the place, I really gotta go. <<<
I see you have a healthy suspicion of recommendations by relatives. :-)
I checked out the web site for Knoebels It seems to be a park run more for the love of it rather than for profit, similar to a railroad museum. I'm sure the owners are making a living from the park, but I doubt that it has the rate of return that a corporation like Disney would be satisfied with. I wish I were close enough to visit this park.
Tom
I frequent some newsgroups having to do with amusement parks, and I have heard nothing but good about Knoebel's.
recently there was a discussion about amusement park food and Knoebel's won, hands down. They seems to have a lot of very unique items and their food prices are apparently very reasonable according to the folks who posted the info.
Now if you want an overpriced park with absolute shit for food, you go to Disneyland in southern California. They just raised their admission prices AGAIN (second time this year) to $43.00 adults. And their food quality is deplorable -- and quite expensive at that.
One theme park I recommend that I visited last summer was Marineland on the Ontario (Canadian) side of Niagara Falls. It was a combination Aquarium, Zoo, and Amusement Park rolled into one. The reasonable admission included everything, all rides and attractions, and it was not crowded, there were hardly any lines at all.
(And this Republican thinks that sucks to high heaven. What about the middle class families? It's sorry enough that football and basketball games are being priced out of the range of the ordinary family. Do they have to get screwed at the theme parks as well?)
You know the Republican answer. If middle class families weren't so lazy and unfocused in school, or slothful on the job, or didn't lack the maturity to postpone their desires and save and invest rather than run up the credit cars, then they would be upper-middle class families. Therefore, as a matter of personal responsibility, their lack of affluence is their own fault, and they do not deserve basketball games, football games and theme parks.
Oopps, sorry, among Republicans that kind of thinking only applies to the poor.
Glad you caught yourself in time. Republicans are the party of the middle class. Notice all the rich Democrats in the Senate--Kohl, Rockefeller, Kerry, and now that woman in Washington Cantwell. So come off it. Anyway there are people enough in both parties who have a feel for those less fortunate. When it comes to amusements for the kids and a chance to enjoy childhood partisanship stops at the front door.
Two other amusement parks you could bring the family to without securing a mortgage is Rye Playland and Adventureland on Rt 110.
sarge... i didn't realize how badly coney island had declined until i went there yesterday afternoon to go for a ride on the carousel... i was shocked to find the beach deserted and all the amusement rides closed... years ago, there were days when over a million people came to coney island for its cooling breezes... yesterday, there were a plethora of cooling breezes, but no one was there to enjoy them... what happened?
[... yesterday, there were a plethora of cooling breezes, but no one was there to enjoy them... what happened]
WINTER ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Paul, if you go there on New Year's Day you might find the Polar Bear Club taking their annual New Year's Day swim.
[yesterday, there were a plethora of cooling breezes, but no one was there to enjoy them... what happened?]
heypaul, don't tell me you're back to using "plethora" again? Don't you think it's a TAD overused by now?
:-)
BMTman
Plethora it aint when it comes to crowds at Coney Island, and the reason may be very simple---the place looks seedy. I'm sure others on this site might be thinking this has taken on a life of its own but facts are facts. The powers that be have allowed this place to deteriorate and it should stop. Someone mentioned a petition. I just wonder how many of us would sign it and whether the Brooklyn Borough President would even be interested, or has he thrown in the towel like so many others have?
When you come to Coney Island, do you always do so in the winter or when it's raining?
I came in August of the years 1974, 1991, and 1999, and spent considerable time there. It was seedy then and is now. I did spend a few hours there this summer while on a sports travel trip. I was disappointed in what I saw. Does that answer your question?
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
Is Pork: the Other White Meat in Never, Never land? He should go down to Coney Island on a good day during the season and he'll see what you mean. Coney Island looks terrible and is in desperate need of attention. Then he'll know what you mean.
BMTJeff
No, I will not know what you mean.
Coney Island might be a shadow of its former self, but it is certainly not a wasteland of urban decay. You are living in the past, you are comparing what was before, which becomes more idealized because it was in your childhood, with what is now. Coney Island might look worse because it was built to house crowds that no longer come, but I have the BENEFIT of never having been around in its heyday.
I can appreciate what is there now because I don't need everything to be as it was.
As for coming to Coney Island, I do so rarely and never venture beyond the boardwalk because I HATE SAND (and anything else beachlike I can do either at home or in a public pool). So I do come to the inland areas, and more often than three times in the last 4 decades. I was there just last Wednesday (I like the boardwalk in the winter).
Hey Man!! The old cliche, "BUILD IT THEY WILL COME"
NEGLECT IT THEY WILL LEAVE, REVIVE AND MAINTAIN IT THEY WILL COME BACK.
There is a reason why Coney island is only a shadown of it's former self. IT IS DEAD!!! If you do not maintain or update you will end up in the past. Anybody that does not see Coney for what it is; is selling himself short. It can be a gold mine for both business and family but it is not okay! It is like a senior on it's last leg. The Roller coster that was torn down this fall was the final kick in the teeth. The South Bronx and Harlem are on their way up, Coney is still on the way down.
I understand that looks are in the eye of the beholder and in your eyes Coney is okay but call a spade a spade. When things are good, people flock, buisnesses go up. Here, they are tearing down and families coming to the amusement park well?????
Finally the Stillwell ave. station is in for some long awaited money, hopefully this will be the brick that will bring Coney Island into the 21st century.
Well said Marty. I'm afraid Pork doesn't have the benefit of our experience of knowing what Coney Island was. He sees it as a young man in the present and probably has little idea of what it once was.
Even with it's historical past the marketing and buisiness side of Coney Island must look to the futur. That is the problem.
If anybody follows NHL hockey, tradition is a hard thing to brake and here in Montreal the Canadaiens are a proud exemple of that. Never in the franchise's history have we been so low. 30th out of 30 teams. The owners keep on living with the past tradition instead of looking ahead. This has caught up to them.
Coney metaphorically speaking is the same! Nothing has been added over the past 50 years. It has lived on past glory only to wake up and realize that half of it is gone. They have the land, they sure have a spectacular location (sea side), boardwalk. It would not take much to revamp this area to a nice new amusement park for the 21st century. Stillwell will finally get some money, maybe a new marketing campaign on the MTA's side when the renovations are done and no doubt some government taxe credits for investors to come along with a great family marketing strategy, Coney could be the place along the Northeastern seaboard.
For now.....
>>> It has lived on past glory only to wake up and realize that half of it is gone. They have the land, they sure have a spectacular location (sea side), boardwalk. It would not take much to revamp this area to a nice new amusement park for the 21st century. <<<
Marty;
You are mistaking cause and effect. Coney Island did not lose business because it was run down, it became rundown when people stopped coming and there was no longer enough income to do proper maintenance. Once it reached that level in 50s, the owners kept the various rides running as long as income kept ahead of operating costs. If Steeplechase Park could not make a go of it, it would take a brave entrepreneur to invest the money for a new amusement park in hopes that it would be financially successful. This was not the only amusement area to go into decline. There is also Palisades Park, Atlantic City, Asbury Park, and on the west coast Pacific Ocean Park and the Long Beach Pike. Times change, the day of the Coney Island style amusement area as it was from 1900-1950 is over. Possibly urban renewal would bring up property values in the area, but trying to turn back the hands of time to resurrect the Coney Island amusement area is probably doomed to failure.
Tom
Well tell me what new ride new game or any expansion has taken place in the past 50 years as opposed to downsizing and abandonment. There is no doubt that times have changed yet they have not changed with the times. the "VIRTUAL WORLD" is now what is in with the kids and a playground with traditional rides mixed in with virtual games along with basketball courts maybe rollerhockey rinks, nice big skate and bike park so on so forth would revamp this past era. I understand that it's living on past glory but 100 years ago someone envisioned an idea for an amusement park, with today's technology, I can't believe a big corporation could not come in and invest some state of the art money and set up shop in the heart of Coney. This is a gold mine waiting to happen for someone.
POP in Santa Monica was torn down inthe 60s not because of lack of people going, but the city felt more like building High Rise condos in the area, and re-zoned the area to residential. Lots of new rides on Santa Monica Pier, since the big blow of 82, plus look at the boardwalk area of Santa Cruz, still going strong. Coney Island had too much compitition. Rockaway Playland, Rye Bach, Palisades park, Too many in one area. Long Beach Pike was also torn down because of new zoning laws and its closeness to Disneyland.
Rockaway Playland, Rye Bach, Palisades park
Two of which are gone completely, whereas Coney Island is still going... not strong, but going.
Rockaway Playland, Rye Bach, Palisades park
Two of which are gone completely, whereas Coney Island is still going... not strong, but going.
Rye Beach Playland is most definitely not gone. Today owned by Westchester County, it attracts big crowds in summer. Special bus service connects Playland with Metro North's Rye station.
Rye Beach Playland is most definitely not gone.
That's why I said two of which, not all of which.
Look all you guys who are still on this Coney Island subject, yes, here in California the Long Beach Pike and Pacific Ocean Park have gone by the boards, but neither one of them had the reputation of Coney Island, and having seen and compared them, there was no comparison. Coney Island had it all over them when I last visited the place as a resident in 1953. Besides, Coney Island had a world wide reputation. Look at what the Canandian Marty says. He's from a foreign nation and he bemoans what has happened to Coney Island. The only ones who bemoan the loss of the LBP and POP are residents of that area, and I'm not even sure of that. I live near the old Pike and don;t miss it a bit. What I'm saying is that Coney Island is worth saving and it can be saved and improved.
Look all you guys who are still on this Coney Island subject, yes, here in California the Long Beach Pike and Pacific Ocean Park have gone by the boards, but neither one of them had the reputation of Coney Island, and having seen and compared them, there was no comparison. Coney Island had it all over them when I last visited the place as a resident in 1953. Besides, Coney Island had a world wide reputation. Look at what the Canandian Marty says. He's from a foreign nation and he bemoans what has happened to Coney Island. The only ones who bemoan the loss of the LBP and POP are residents of that area, and I'm not even sure of that. I live near the old Pike and don;t miss it a bit. What I'm saying is that Coney Island is worth saving and it can be saved and improved.
Well Flushing can be bad too. I was in Stern's and the outer elevator door was open on the 2nd floor, but the elevator door wasn't(inner)! Would you believe nobody noticed! People on other floors kept pressing the button, and waited!
I pressed the button and then all the doors opened on the 2nd floor, fixed by me! The escalator sounded horrible too. I never go in the elevator there, and the escalors rarely work, when they do they sound horrible. A bunch of homeless guys living in front of Stern's and Caldor too, eating out of garbage. I couldn't wait to get out of there.
Places like Flushing, Coney Island, and other districts of NYC in outer boroughs, are neglected by city management. Flushing needs better sewers, and it's remaining mainstream stores (like Sterns) are in bad shape. Ironically, the Stern's at Manhattan mall (the one that will close) was quite busy, but the one in Flushing was dead. I would've thought the Flushing store would've closed before Manhattan.
Flushing was dead though, no shoppers just people coming from the 7 train, going directly to their buses. Only places that are busy are chinese markets, everything else there is dying too, especially on Roosevelt avenue.
I was one of those folks that did some shopping in Flushing today. I went to Payless Shoe Source-there were just a handful (maybe 4-5 shoppers) at any one time I was in there. Then I went to one of those fancy chinese restaurants for a takeout-yup the place was pretty much dead... the "cashier" had his newspaper-reading glasses on that's how dead it was!
I think crime is up in Flushing. Those b*st*rds from the Wendy's incident brought their fellow b*st*rds into the area and in my opinion "splashed gasoline all over the floor". Those Wendy's guys should obviously be condemned to death. Why is anyone even considering the tall skinnier guy may be mentally retarded????? If that guy gets spared capital punishment because of his "mental-retardedness" I swear I'll never trust the system, EVER. (I'll rather be RED than DEAD in that case...)
Saw on the channel 5 news that residents that live in the vicinity of Bowne school, as well as businesses on Main street, are quite upset about the troublesome kids, which terrorize the area after they get out from school. They mug elderly people, threaten others, and scare away customers. And the police and school are reluctant to do anything to stop them because "gatherings cannot be illegal under the constitution". So they have to wait for a crime to happen. These kids often gather in groups of 20 or more, in front of the subway entrances, especially the NW 7 train entrance at Main&Roosevelt.
Many people say that they don't shop in Flushing anymore, just use the area to change from bus to train.
This confirms what I've been seeing in that area. I used to hang out there but it seems more unsafe, so I just hop on the bus right away.
The situation in Flushing is a prime example of why we need stricter punishment for these unruly teens (which also vandalize subway cars and buses). The only way to stop them is humiliate them. Fine them and their parents the first time. The second time they should be put in jail for three weeks. And the third time, a public flogging.
We are so obsessed with freedom in this country, that a disorganized chaos is developing and there will be no stability.
Is it so wrong to want a clean, safe subway and a transportation terminal like Flushing, where one can feel safe and have a good choice of places to shop?
For that I'd rather be RED, because I don't want to see Flushing, DEAD!!
The only way to stop them is humiliate them. Fine them and their parents the first time. The second time they should be put in jail for three weeks. And the third time, a public flogging.
Ever heard of the eighth amendment?
I for one would like to see Coney Island revamped. The idea I have it my head is to make it more like Wildwood, NJ. I guess some of you might know about it. They have a 2.5 mile boardwalk packed with stores, vendors, etc as well as three or four piers off the boardwalk full of rides and attracions and such. This has to be a great tourist trap. The boardwalk is always packed at night. If they could make Coney Island more like that I would go there.
It would be also kinda nice to clean the place up and maybe get some better police enforcement. I was almost scared just being around there at night about a year ago. There was a drug dealer by the subway station entrance and such.
While they're at it, try getting some of those vehicles that Wildwood has that remove the garbage from the sand. I stepped on some glass there a long time ago and it wasn't pleasant. When I was there last year or so I noticed that it was dirtier than I remember it.
Just some ideas.
Shawn
It would be also kinda nice to clean the place up ...
OK ..
and maybe get some better police enforcement.
You must have gone to a different Coney Island. During the summer, there must be a police officer every 1/4 block. All over. Even the boardwalk.
And at least 30 at Nathans :)
--Mark
They are at Nathans, because there is no Dunkin Donuts
I'm afraid Pork doesn't have the benefit of our experience of knowing what Coney Island was.
And I just said that your benefit is really a disadvantage. Coney Island is as vital as it can be now. Its brand of entertainment is passé. The only problem is the abandonded lots. Coney Island is too big for what it has.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I'm afraid that I would have to agree with you that Pork doesn't appreciate what Coney Island meant to the older generations and they would like to see it revived.
BMTJeff
What was the point of posting that? You didn't add anything new to the discussion.
Anyway, I will not argue with you that I don't give a damn what Coney Island means to older generations. I don't think we should rebuild everything to look like the past. Our best years are in the FUTURE, we must look to it.
I also don't like those stupid lampposts that are replicas of the old style posts. If you have an old post, then restore it. Otherwise, DESIGN SOMETHING NEW!
I don't think we should rebuild everything to look like the past. Our best years are in the FUTURE, we must look to it.
You must have come from a sty in another part of the country. Looking to the future is NOT the NYC way. Just as you wallow in mud, New Yorkers wallow in nostalgia for a vanished, never-to-return past.
I come from a stuy in New York, and yes, the city's attitude SUCKS.
I wonder if it would have been better if the 1890s never happened (which includes the Kings County/Brooklyn consolidation).
Pigs, have you ever heard of the story about "The State of Long Island" and that Brooklyn (Kings County) would have been the capitol if it had come about? (This was during the Civil War era).
BMTman
Also how many times prior to the 50s when NYC wanted to become the 51st State, along with Long Island
Also how many times prior to the 50s when NYC wanted to become the 51st State, along with Long Island
If it was prior to the 50s, wouldn't it have become the 49th State?
You are right, the latest feeling was in the mid 60s so it would have been the 51st state.
None of us really know what the future holds so it is pointless to make predictions that might not materialize. On the other hand, nostalgia is very important to a person who remembers pleasant incidents from childhood at places that brings back equally happy memories. Coney Island and Ebbets Field were two such places, so please Pork, do not begrudge us that enjoyment. It is also a fact that Coney Island has seen much better days and those of us who long for those or hope to see a revival have every right to air their concerns and hopes. Do your best to respect that. Pete knows where he's coming from and he speaks what most of us older guys feel.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
Bravo! Sea Beach Fred. Keep telling Pork what Coney Island means to you and many others and maybe he'll appreciate it.
BMTJeff
Right On Old Fred, Coney Island Used to be great, and for once for a old RIGHT WING Republican I can agree with you. I wonder if Pork knows that in the early 50s, Kings Plaza was the city garbage dump.
(I wonder if Pork knows that in the early 50s, Kings Plaza was the
city garbage dump.)
The Fountain Avenue landfill was actually east of there, near the area where Gateway Estates is proposed to be built. Kings Plaza was the site of a bunch of heavy industry and maritime uses -- ie. barges bringing in coal and oil, service vessels, etc. The surrounding area was run down vacant lots. My father in law was telling me about it.
The zoning is still M3, heavy industry. After Kings Plaza was built, Kings Highway declined -- the blamed the latter on the former, and banned new major retail developments in manufacturing zones -- which constituted the majority of the available non-residential land outside the city. The exodus of city retail dollars to the suburbs then began. Until 1969, the growth of retail and services in Brooklyn outweighed the slow decline of industry. All downhill from there. We are way below the 1969 peak today.
There was a landfill in the area that closed in the 1950s, which considering it was so long ago, anybody could get their places mixed up.
This was White Island, in the Middle of the undeveloped portion of Marine Park (look at a map), there was a bridge that connected it to the east and provided access to Flatbush Avenue through what is now the Marine Park Golf Course.
White Island was not a municipal dump, I don't remember who was in charge but the city's garbage was not dumped there. Fountain Avenue is well east of there, it was abandoned in 1985 and consists of two hills. When it finally becomes legal to build there, that's where 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue will be.
If anyone is interested, the landfill dump across from Starrett City is proposed to be developed into a golf course (leveling off the top and surrounding "mountains"). This is one of the plans that I've heard about.
Gateway Estates as far as I know is on hold. The only project in that area (East New York/City Line) is the forthcoming Gateway Mall, where a Home Depot and Target outlet will be the anchors.
BMTman
What is Gateway Estates? I've seen the billboard, but that's it.
Will the Golf Course be at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?
When I was a kid of 8 and 9. I used to go to Broad Channel Day Camp. The route we took was Flatbush Ave to the Marine Pk(Gil Hodges) Bridge, and across to Rockaway. Every Morning, the dump trucks were unloading on the Southeast Corner of Ave U and Flatbush. The Marine Term was closer to Floyd Bennet Field, and at that time we were in the Middle of the Korean War and Floyd Bennett field was very active with WWII Prop planes, since they did not allow Jets at the time.
There's a simple reason it couldn't have been a landfill: It's flat.
Those could have been trucks dumping whatever things Larry said were done at the location. Or you could still be confusing it with the White Island site.
Nope, I do not know where White Island is, I know it was Ave U and Flatbush Ave.
It could have been a barge transfer yard. Landfills always include hills.
Gateway Estates was a planned "suburban type" community in the area bounded by Fountain AVe., Vandalia AVe. and Erskine Blvd.
It would have truly been "suburban" because there isn't any real public transit in that part of Brooklyn, save for a bus line or two. A few blocks to the east would be Queens (Howard Beach).
BMTman
Unless you want to call the B13 a bus route???
(I know this belong on Bus Talk)
Train#1928Mike
If it is, Jerry Ford will probably shank a tee shot onto Pennsylvania Avenue and smash someone's windshield (if he doesn't slip and fall first). Supposedly, that actually happened once in Vail. He shanked a shot onto I-70 and smashed a windshield.
(This was White Island, in the Middle of the undeveloped portion of Marine Park (look at a map), there was a bridge that
connected it to the east and provided access to Flatbush Avenue through what is now the Marine Park Golf Course.)
You know, I didn't know about White Island, but I do know that after getting a brochure from the parks department, my wife and I once took a walk along the Marine Park "nature trail." We were amazed at all the garbage in the weeds. I guess they didn't bury it deep enough. We decided to get out of there before we happened upon a body.
Flatbush and where?
Flatbush and where? and which side of Flatbush Ave.
If you're talking about the Golf Course, it's Flatbush Avenue and nowhere, on the west side across from Toys R' Us.
That's not possible because the landfill never spilled onto the mainland. The garbage you saw was because of illegal dumping. Did they get rid of the abandoned cars?
With City Garbage Trucks, I think not. This was 50 years ago.
Garbage is still hauled by barge.
The prevailing theory is that you don't remember correctly. How many 30 year olds remember details from when they were eight? Now how easy it is for older people to remember details from when they were eight?
A Lot, people tell me I have a remarkable Memory. I went to the Madison Reunion in Great Neck last Month, saw people I have not seen in 42 plus years, and remember things we did as kids in grade school. Each Person has different memory capacity.
I'm not trying to say that you're senile (far from it), but there never was a landfill at Kings Plaza. I'm not trying to justify anything for you, but the simple fact is that there wasn't, no matter how much you remember, or would like to believe.
#1 Brighton Exp Bob:
Pork also doesn't have an appreciation for Coney Island like many old time New Yorker's have for it. Though I'm a youngster compared to many of you I've seen old pictures of Coney Island and from what I saw it was a GREAT! place at one time. I think if city officials can think in those terms Coney Island can be a great place once again.
BMTJeff
I remember as a kid, Steeplechase Park could take all day, I think it was 20 rides ticket to 2 dollars(mid 50s) They had a a circle with numbers on it, and when you went on a ride the punched the number. Then you could buy more. avg 5 cents a ride. I still have my Steeplechase T Shirt. It is new, I bought it on the Boardwalk off of Stillwell last May/
Pork also doesn't have an appreciation for Coney Island like many old time New Yorker's have for it.
The many old time New Yorkers that you're talking about obviously DON'T have an appreciation for Coney Island, since they are the ones who think it's just in the past.
I appreciate the PRESENT Coney Island. I don't need all of the old rides to think of Coney Island as a nice place. It could be better, but better is not always older (in fact, better is rarely older, older is usually worse).
"better is not always older (in fact, better is rarely older, older is usually worse)." WHAT????
Was that a "HOMER" you just pulled?
Your knowledge is astonishing but humble is a word not found in your dictionary! All we are saying is that Coney Island's heydays are long gone and if something is not done in the near future you won't go to see YOUR beautiful Coney Island as YOU see it. It will all be gone.
It used to be a busy amusement park, it is not anymore. For that reason us older fans are looking ahead so that Coney does not vanish. I haven't seen you post any ideas to upgrade and make things better.
I know YOU like Coney the way it is but there is always room for improvement.
If a compagny invested money in bringing back a rollercoaster, state of the art virtual reality complexe, an indoor outdoor inline roller park, skateboard and hockey park for the kids, BMX track, basketball courts and an outdoor general admision concert venue featuring artist like EVE six, Creed, Tragically Hip, Ricky Martins so on so forth all along the boardwalk, maybe this would bring back the people. The old cliche "build it they will come"! You have to build something that will attract them. Keep in mind this is for the kids. 50 years ago Coney was for the kids, looking into the furtur it should still target their generation.
question did anyone here see PBS running the history of coney island?
from its beginning to today & also how is that cyclone coaster ride.?
i understand the magic mountain parks copy off of that one aka the old "pike at long beach in california" back in the 1960-70s !!
I know YOU like Coney the way it is but there is always room for improvement.
YES! There is room for improvement, there always is! That improvement can be had by looking to the future, not by reviving the past.
I agree with your final paragraph where you say that CI should get MODERN improvements.
Yes Modern Improvements, build something there, not leave it the way it was, but get some ideas. In Both Melbourne and Sydney Australia, a company built 2 parks based on the old Luna Park in Coney Island. Everything is modern, but based on something that was back then. "Build IT and They Will Come" Business brings people, people bring money and more taxes, and it goes back to the people. How Much Money did NY loose in Tax Revenue when the Giants and Jet moved to the Meadowlands?
#1 Brighton Exp Bob:
You're right. They can build a modern day Luna Park and people will come. A modern day amusement park based on the old Luna Park will bring money into Coney Island. They can also have accurate reproduction of original Coney Island style carousels which will attract many people young and old alike. Why should Coney Island be a thing of the past. It can be made great once again so that present and future generations can enjoy it once again and getting there for many people would be just the cost of a subway ride.
Jeff Alterman
A-MEN To THAT
>>> It used to be a busy amusement park, <<<
Marty;
Coney Island was not an amusement park. There were two amusement parks, Luna Park and Steeplechase, and many independent ride operators, penny arcades, and side shows. This was a chance for many entrepreneurs to make money without much initial investment in the American capitalist tradition. It was much like a mall with the two big parks being the prime tenants, and everything else being the small shops. Luna Park burned down in either the late 30s or early 40s. I remember going to Coney Island with my father in the late 40s, and he lamented about how the place was just a shell of its former self without Luna Park. He spoke fondly then about what Coney Island was in his youth in the 20s.
In the 60s Steeplechase Park was closed and torn down. Now Coney Island is like a mall with both major anchor stores gone. The smaller independently owned attractions limp on much like small shops in a declining mall. Unfortunately the economics do not make sense for a big amusement park operator to build a new park from the ground up, and therefore it is doubtful that area will ever again become a big time amusement area. Unfortunately, the remaining rides and amusement arcades probably hurt the chances of redeveloping the area in another direction.
It is not surprising that many who have nostalgia for the old days of Coney Island are the same ones who like old trains, subways and streetcars.
Tom
Well, there were actually three major amusement parks in Coney Island during its "heyday": Steeplechase, Luna, and Dreamland. They opened in the order that I listed them, and closed in the reverse order, so that Dreamland was the first park to close.
An interesting view for you folks to consider: David McCullough (author of a popular book on the area) claims that the relative longevity of Steeplchase Park was because it focused on having its visitors enjoy themselves (in rides such as the famous Steeplechase and other thrill rides and in rides allowing people to socialize and romance), as compared to enjoying themes and oddity shows at Luna and Dreamland. He believes that Luna and Dreamland focused on more elaborate and spectular attractions and that this focus ultimately meant less staying power. This view is a bit broad and generalizes, but I would like to know what take some of you folks have on this.
Also, I vaguely recall that Luna Park burned down twice (I cannot remember the dates).
-turnstiles
LUNA PARK IS ALIVE AND WELL IN MELBOURNE AUSTRALIA AND WAS JUST REVITALIZED DURING THE OLYMPICS IN NORTH SYDNEY, JUST UNDER THE BRIDGE
Does us alot of good here, might as well be on the moon, or in Jersey!!
HA HA, good one!!
Bravo! Sea Beach Fred. Keep telling Pork what Coney Island means to you and many others and maybe he'll appreciate it.
I am the one who appreciates it. You people are the once who appreciated it (note the past tense).
http://www.nydailynews.com/2000-11-30/news_and_views/city_beat/a-90431.asp
None of us really know what the future holds so it is pointless to make predictions that might not materialize. On the other hand, nostalgia is very important to a person who remembers pleasant
incidents from childhood at places that brings back equally happy memories. Coney Island and Ebbets Field were two such places, so please Pork, do not begrudge us that enjoyment. It is also a fact that Coney Island has seen much better days and those of us who long for those or hope to see a revival have every right to air their concerns and hopes. Do your best to respect that. Pete knows where he's coming from and he speaks what most of us older guys feel.
Well, I, uh, don't quite consider myself one of the older guys, not yet ...
But anyway, I don't have anything against nostalgia per se, and I suspect that our porcine pal doesn't either. It's nice to think about happy memories of days gone by. Just the other day, riding the train to work, I thought for a while about a YMCA day camp I had attended in the mid-1960's and all the fun experiences I had had there. It was a pleasant diversion, infinitely better than focusing on the LIRR cattle car in which I was temporarily imprisoned.
That being said, nostalgia, like any other good thing, can be taken too far. And that's precisely what all too many New Yorkers have done. They whine endlessly about the "good old days" when New York was a matchless shining city upon a hill, and in the process lose all interest in planning for the future. It's almost as if the future is too murky to understand, so let's live in the past. Well, of course the future is hard to see clearly - it hasn't happened yet! But people in most parts of the country, the Sun Belt in particular, plan for the future nonetheless. New Yorkers don't. And that, I fear, is the city's eventual curse.
I don't think we should rebuild everything to look like the past.
So you don't think that the Mets new stadium, proposed to be a replica of Ebbets Field, is a good idea?
Or the subway kiosk replica at Astor Place? Or the dozens of stations that have been restored to look like they did when they were new? You prefer the modern "Chiclets" tile scheme of the 4th Avenue (Brooklyn) subway?
--Mark
I don't think we should rebuild everything to look like the past.
So you don't think that the Mets new stadium, proposed to be a replica of Ebbets Field, is a good idea?
Or the subway kiosk replica at Astor Place? Or the dozens of stations that have been restored to look like they did when they were new? You prefer the modern "Chiclets" tile scheme of the 4th Avenue (Brooklyn) subway?
That was actually our porcine pal's gruntings. Personally, I see nothing wrong with building things in a style that harkens back to the past, though like any good thing it can be overdone.
So you don't think that the Mets new stadium, proposed to be a replica of Ebbets Field, is a good idea?
The proposed stadium takes cues from the past, it's not a complete homage. It would have a retractable roof and playing field that Ebbets Field never had.
Or the subway kiosk replica at Astor Place?
That can be excused because there are no kiosks left. There are a lot of entrances that all look the same that they can redesign.
Or the dozens of stations that have been restored to look like they did when they were new?
The stations that are rebuilt to look like the past are usually not built anew. They're just restored, which might involve new tile, but it's still more of a restoration.
You prefer the modern "Chiclets" tile scheme of the 4th Avenue (Brooklyn) subway?
The "chiclets" design is itself old. The MTA's newest design is that of the three 63rd Street Stations. They should install NEW designs where the old tiles have been completely destroyed.
Pork is still a kid, in 20-25 years he will look back and talk about theis times, as memories
Everything that's new now will be old then, so I'd like old things, but I still won't like really old things (things that are old now).
I don't want this era to end having designed nothing that wasn't designed 50 or more years ago. Those are the eras that are remembered for their mediocrity, if for anything at all.
As I've posted just awhile ago: part of Coney Island's "character" is that it is a bit on the seedy side.
Remember that at the turn of the 20th Century, Coney Island was originally much like what Las Vegas was up until very recently: a place with attractions for the whole family, but it also had it's "redlight district", where whoring, gambling and illicit activities would go on day and night.
Now Vegas is going the way of Disney -- featuring family oriented entertainment and attractions (i.e., sanitizing the strip).
BMTman
When I went to Coney Island it did not appear seedy at all, albeit somewhat run down. It was a Saturday during the summer and there were lots of people on the beach and other places there.
I still visit and manage to have a good time. Judging from the crowds I encounter, other people seem to enjoy it as well. I have no quarrel with those who say it needs improving. But dead? I don't think so.
In a sense, Coney Island is a victim of its past. Taken strictly on the basis of its present condition, it's probably not so bad. But it does pale in comparison to what it was like years ago, hence the perception of decline.
For the big amusement park operators -- basically Disney, the Time-Warner spin-off (whose name I forget) and Anheuser-Busch -- the logistics of Coney Island (i.e. the lack of a big, wide parcel of land) makes the area unattractive for the kind of theme parks they like to build.
That means any chance of having someone come in and restore the area to its past glory would mean getting a person or company in the U.S. with a lot of money but not much if any park management experience or some firm from Europe or Asia involved in those type of thing and looking to get a foothold in the U.S. market.
The last big amusement park built in New York City was Freedomland, and it's operational lifespan was about as long as a fruit fly's. A Coney Island park would have better transit facilities than that thing did to get people to and from the gates, but it would still be a risky proposition.
RonInBayside:
Coney Island certainly isn't "dead" but I think that it could use some rejuvenation. A rejuvenated Coney Island would give it a new lease on life. Now that the "Thunderbolt" roller coaster has been demolished I think that people should think forward and encourage thet construction of a new roller coaster where the "Thunderbolt" once stood. I also think that the civic leaders should certainly consider encouraging the revitalization of Coney Island. I would like to see one or two replicas of Coney Island style carousels complete with organs carved out of wood which plays circles over the fiberglass and steel ones. They can also build a modern recreation of the "Thunderbolt" roller coaster. These would be great things to have once again if they put the effort into it.
BMTJeff
aAlso re-open the Parachutte Jump Ride
Hey Gentlemen: It's great to know there are a lot of us Coney Island aficiciandos out there. Maybe the word will get out and we'll see some action to make the place a showplace once again. I still feel it could be done.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
You're right, If they put the effort into it they can make Coney Island great once again.
BMTJeff
[Now that the "Thunderbolt" roller coaster has been demolished I think that people should think forward and encourage thet construction of a new roller coaster where the "Thunderbolt" once stood.]
Here's some interesting news on the Thunderbolt"
The Mayor got the Thunderbolt torn down before a Judge could issue an injuction to delay the demolition. The whole thing was railroaded by the Buildings Dept. so that Rudy's new ball stadium across the street would not have the Thunderbolt "eyesore" in the background.
The owner of the Thunderbolt was quoted in the Brooklyn Heights Press as stating that there were a number of different options that could have been taken besides literally bulldozing the ride: one of those proposals was an offer from another theme park owner who was interested in removing the Thunderbolt (piece-by-piece) and reassembling it at a new location. Unfortunately, that did not come to pass. The Thunderbolt was reduced to rubble prematurely.
BMTman
* today pbs ran a history of coney island the ups & down when the subway frist whent there etc & all of the old sepia footage ....
coney island survived fires destruction before somehow it will remain & or make a comeback ( maybe not like the long beach pike ) and or pacific ocean park declined in los angeles. but i do believe with good subway access coney will not die it is an historicial landmark !!
sorry if i mispelled something .......
I agree with you, BMTJeff, 100%. I like your attitude.
RonInBayside:
With a rejuvenated Coney Island New York could once again have one of the greatest amusement areas in the country.
BMTJeff
I don't think this will ever happen. Coney Island just doesn't have the available acreage to make it a viable contender as a Class-1 amusement park.
It could be made to be an enclosed, year-round establishment, but as I've stated previously, there are just too many alternatives to CI nowadays to make it an attractive investment (...Disney, Busch Gardens, Las Vegas, etc.)
BMTman
But then it wouldn't be Coney Island.
Right, Sarge. The grungy, scuzzy, look and feel of Coney Island (the poor man's amusement park) would be lost and it would just end up becoming another run-of-the-mill, cookie-cutter produced tourist attraction.
I for one would not want a major take-over by a Disney or a Six Flaggs. We would lose the "character" of Coney and THAT to me would be the REAL tragedy.
More than a complete make-over, CI basically needs some cosmetic work -- and certainly could use better advertising (like they used to do -- remember the TV ads from years ago??).
BMTman
OK Doug, let's leave Disney and Six Flags out of the equation, but are you telling me some private group working with the state and local government couldn't put their heads together and come up with a working plan to make Coney Island a working family's recreational park with new amenities and a cleaner and more up to date look? I still think it's possible. It is certainly worth the try.
There is nothing OPERATIONALLY wrong with Coney Island. What it needs is a serious CLEAN-UP and SPRUCE UP campaign.
The place does not need to be rebuilt and/or modernized (If that's what you're trying to get across). If that's what you want you can go to any other theme park in the US and get that.
I'm going to be beating a dead horse soon, but I'll reiterate this: part of Coney Island's allure (at least for current residents of NYC and environs) is to go to Coney with that special someone (:-) on a warm summer night, munch on a hotdog or two, take in the Cyclone or the Wonder Wheel, ride the bumper cars and then take a hand-in-hand stroll on the boardwalk with the sky turning to dusk behind you.
Nothing rarely beats that, and I can say that YOU STILL CAN appreciate Coney Island even today. It's all a state of mind.
BMTman
Yes, that might be true, but it could still use some new rides such as the Tornado, Thunderbolt, and Parachute Jump. And, what happened to the Rotor (Hell Hole)? Are there still several different side shows? The last time I was there in the summer all I saw was the Ten-in-One.
Yes, the side shows, freak shows, and assorted attractions are still there.
The location of those things changes from year to year, however. This obviously adds to the confusion about what is and is not open.
Always look for the guy with the pork-pie hat making annoucements on the corner by Surf and the second block in from Nathan's (going East). He will be yelling about upcoming shows (this is during the heart of the summer season only).
BMTman
That eyesore of the worn out and disused roller coaster, with that old run down house nearby, that was a frightful site. So don't modernize it, but add some new attractions, bring some old ones back, and fix up Stillwell. I'd even settle for that.
That eyesore of the worn out and disused roller coaster, with that old run down house nearby, that was a frightful site.
That frightful sight is gone.
Remember what started this thread? That was the rollercoaster that was demolished.
If we negate what is problematic in Coney Island we can keep what is good and build from there.
I agree with other posts, I would not want to see Disney take over. Look at Times Square. It's lost it's charisma to become a sterille money pit. Coney has a charm that inevitably will fade away unless local, state or federal government protect it as a historical landmark, add a little money to support and revive it to stay afloat.
(I would not want to see Disney take over. Look at Times Square. It's lost it's charisma to become a sterille money pit. Coney has a charm that inevitably will fade away unless local, state or federal government protect it as a historical landmark)
Coney Island, aside from the government-run beach, was consisted of amusement parks thrown up fast and cheap by large-scale businesses using state-of-the-art equipment. It WAS Disneyland, circa 1900 to 1930. When the big bucks stopped rolling in, the investment stopped. It was cash-cowed, then left to rot and burn. What's left is a few local entreprenuers keeping up a couple of remaining major attractions, supplemented by rides that could be at any state fair and a couple of particularly lousy fast food joints.
All that is inherently valuable is the beach, the boardwalk, the Cyclone, the WonderWheel, and the Aquarium -- the latter does not date from Coney's heyday. Even Nathans would be better off in a new building with seating.
To restore its historic place, you wouldn't just have Disney in Coney Island, but Sony and some other big-time amusement operator as well.
Bring Back Steeplechase.
>>> Bring Back Steeplechase. <<<
Of course that cannot happen either. Many of the popular rides there could not get insurance today. Among those attractions that probably would not pass muster would be the famous Steeplechase horses, the revolving barrels at the entrance to the park, the ride where everyone sat on the center pedestal and were thrown off by centrifugal force, and the one in which the patrons descended an enclosed spiral slide onto a surface with inlaid sinning disks which tossed them from one direction to another until they finally came to an edge.
I also doubt that the clown with the electric prod who would direct women over an air blower which would blow up their skirts would be tolerated today.
Tom
I also doubt that the clown with the electric prod who would direct women over an air blower which would blow up their skirts would be tolerated today.
As the expression goes, everything old is new again. "Upskirt" photography is definitely on a roll today. See this site to see what I mean.
The T/O on a Brooklyn bound B today flew into W4th from the dash,
and I almost thought we wouldn't stop in time!
Even Nathans would be better off in a new building with seating.
They DO have seating, however they remove it during the summertime and use it only during the winter (which doesn't make a lick of sense, how many people actually visit Nathan's in the winter compared to the summer?).
In addition, Nathans has a closed of room that once had seats and tables with waiter service. Or so I've heard.
WRONG.
The bench seating is for indoors during the winter months.
However, during the summer months Nathan's becomes SO crowded that the seating only gets in the way of the masses on line for food -- so it's removed. And don't forget that most people picking up a lunch or dinner tends to take their meals with them to the arcades and/or the boardwalk, so on-site seating is actually not essential to Nathan's.
However, the circular tables that are set up besides Nathan's (it's almost like an alleyway) are only there during the summer months.
Indoor seating makes sense in the wintertime: who the heck is going to brave the wind and cold to eat their Nathan's dogs outside?
BMTman
WRONG.
The bench seating is for indoors during the winter months.
If I'm wrong, then so are you, because that's exactly what I said.
[They DO have seating, however they remove it during the summertime and use it only during the winter (which doesn't make a lick of sense, how many people actually visit Nathan's in the winter compared to the summer?).]
Pigs, I was answering to your 'which doesn't make a lick of sense' quote, because my response answers that question.
It's not that I disagee with your observation which DOES align with mine.
BMTman
I'm sorry. I just thought that you were misreading what I was writing.
It's lost it's charisma to become a sterille money pit.
It's still the same neon heaven it always was. As for its "charisma," I don't care for drugs, porn and prostitution.
THERE STILL IS NATHANS AND ON THE BOARDWALK JUST WEST OF STILLWELL IS A STORE WITH THE BEST SELECTION OF BROOKLYN, CONEY ISLAND AND EVEN STEEPLECHASE T SHIRTS ALL UNDER 10 BUCKS.
All of s sudden Ron I feel a hell of a lot better about things. But I believe with all my heart and soul that there could be a major improvement of Coney Island that would make it a mecca for the little guy and his family and those non-snobs who wouldn't mine hob knobbing with the lower middle class. A veritable people's park paradise. I feel it could be done.
Old Tom: I hope you are wrong but either way you have probably ruined my day. The revival of Coney Island means a hell of a lot to me, and the crime of it is that I feel it could be done with ingenuuity and stick-to-itiveness on the part of city fathers, state leaders and private interests.
Then why do the Jersey Shore (Seaside Heights, Wildwood, Ocean City) amusements thrive when Coney Island does not? None of these other amusement areas are accessible, easily, by public transit the way Coney Island is. They share the same climate that Coney Island does. They're only open during the warm Spring and Summer months as others have posted. Yet they thrive. Why didn't Coney Island?
--Mark
Some of them have done well, but we've lost some, too--Asbury Park being the prime example. I've also heard that Keansburg is not what it was a few years ago.
I've also heard that Keansburg is not what it was a few years ago.
You hear correctly. There was an article in the Asbury Park Press either Wednesday or Thursday that said Keansburg is contemplating municipal bankruptcy because of falling property values and tax revenues, coupled with a significant increase in the police budget due to a rising crime rate - the old vicious cycle. Many storefronts there are vacant now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A couple of things about Coney Island. It only had one hotel, and (after an early heyday as a fashionable destination) was dependent on the working classes of New York for its prosperity. These folks either moved up and out, or down, and the market disappeared. The Shore Towns serve tourists. When demand went down, some entire areas went to hell (Altlantic City, Asbury Park) but others survived.
Second, Coney Island was thrown up fast and cheap, and half of it burned down. Playland was built of more solid stuff, got government support, was in a more affluent area, and survived. Even if Coney Island has stayed prosperous, it would have had to be rebuilt bit by bit. When it all decayed at once, it was curtains.
Coney Island was thrown up fast and cheap, and half of it burned down. Playland was built of more solid stuff, got government support, was in a more affluent area, and survived.
If you mean Rye Playland, I believe that Westchester County owns it.
I've also heard that Keansburg is not what it was a few years ago.
You hear correctly. There was an article in the Asbury Park Press either Wednesday or Thursday that said Keansburg is contemplating municipal bankruptcy because of falling property values and tax
revenues, coupled with a significant increase in the police budget due to a rising crime rate - the old vicious cycle. Many storefronts there are vacant now.
I drove through Keansburg a couple of years ago and was greatly unimpressed with what I saw. It didn't have Asbury Park's Hiroshima 1945 atmosphere, but it definitely wouldn't be mistaken for Beverly Hills. Even so, I agree with the original comment - most of the Jersey Shore resort towns are doing well. It's just that there are a few exceptions.
Tell us what specific kinds of changes you'd like to see.
How much of the decline is directly or indirectly related to the housing projects that have gone up throughout the years?
Quick impresion from an out of towner.
I hate saying this because I'll bum some people out but I'm from Montreal. I went down to NYC this past summer, only to be very disapointed by Coney Island. It was the area I was looking forward to seeing the most. It was scary at night. Graffiti all over, closed up shops, steel gates. I came back the following day only to see police presence all over (very intimidating) no rides running; so much so, I asked a police officer if the park was closed? "No it opens at one!" Walked along the boardwalk, to take pictures of the landscape. Those high rises are an eyesore in the background. Was it Robert Moses again who decided to erect these housing projects? If so not only did he destroy part of the Bronx borough, he's done it in the southern part of brooklyn as well. As a tourist I was standing in line at Nathans only to see garbage overflowing out of the trash cans on the street. Surf ave. for as far as I could see looked gritty and dirty.
I finally decided to go back a thrid time, this time with a couple of subfans taking the subway down. They had forwarned me not to venture too far off towards those high rises.
STILLWELL STATION. This took the cake!!!! IS IT RAINING IN THAT SUBWAY STATION? The intoxicating smell of urine as you pass the gates is out of this world. I remember seeing a movie called the Warriors set in Coney Island thinking that was then today must be different!
NO!!!
All of these issues do not make for a safe vibrant family outing. Look around the next time you're down there do you really want to bring your kids there? As humans we can adapt to just about any surroundings thrown to us. This is the case with the current status of Coney Island. We accept the way it is, remembering it's past glory, hoping for it's futur. It is a shame that no-one has reinvested money in this area. It should be a gold mine for any wise businessman and a picturesque setting for the family; forming memories for our kids like it has done for past generations.
(All of these issues do not make for a safe vibrant family outing. Look around the next time you're down there do you really want to bring your kids there)
I took my brother and his three year old down there when we visited from out of town last summer. The sand was littered with broken glass. The lifeguard said there was a lot of public drinking on the 4th of July, and the beach sweeper ran over the bottles and broke them by the thousands. He left with a very negative impression of Brooklyn as well. I did NOT bring him through Stillwell, which is scheduled to be rebuilt.
If he wasn't impressed with what the area looked like then I don't blame you for not bringing him through Stillwell!
Keep in mind the stereotype most of us out of towners have of the big Apple. Unless you have read up on current affairs, most people's image of The South Bronx is still how Howard Cossell described it during the 77 world series, Harlem is still mostly Afro-American. Of course this is now false. These two neighborhoods have gentrified themselves over the years. Coney Island is a family place reknown around the world. When you have an image in your mind then come face to face with reality, it sure is a shock and disapointment.
I'm glad to see that Stilwell will finaly get some well deserved money invested into it. It is long overdue. I know it has made the list of the worse stations in the system on an other post currently being read. Will that be the begining of Coney's overhaul, I hope. It really is a shame to see this slowly disapear.
BTW:
When will renovations begin and what does Coney Island look like in winter. Is anything open?
This is what really gets me. My impression is that the tourists, or former New Yorkers, are more bent out of shape than current New Yorkers are about the seedy conditions of Coney Island. I don't know why that should be. People who live and work in the city should be angry at the way the place has become. Stillwell's overhaul is way overdue, and the first thing they ought to do there is eliminate that urine smell that permeates the station like a sick virus. Perhaps if enough of us complain long enough things might change for the better. It's time for you New Yorkers to step to the plate and complain to the heavens about what has become of the place. Action to revive Coney Island should not be looked upon as mission impossible. It can and must be done.
Put a petition together, and let's see how many people would be willing to sign on (I certainly would). Then send it to Conway, with copies to Brooklyn Borough President Howard Golden (office on Joralemon St) and the city councilperson representing the area.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
You're absolutely right that something must be done about Coney Island. I think that the politicians do not realize that if they revive Coney Island it can be a great place once again. It can attract tourists and locals alike and bring money back into the area. I would certainly keep certain things such as the B&B Carousell since it is the last remaining wooden carousel in Coney Island but, I would have several more wooden carousels built which would be accurate recreations of original Coney Island style carousels. I would also build a recreation of the "Thunderbolt" and "Tornado" roller coasters if possible. And don't forget to comnpletely rehabilitate the Stillwell Avenue terminal.
BMTJeff
The housing projects are no less than ten blocks away from Stillwell Avenue. They're exactly where the tourists and pleasure seekers would have stopped going a few blocks away.
The area would be better off if it was redeveloped as a seaside residential community, like Sea Gate. Sea Gate would be better off, it's been overshadowed by other Brooklyn neighborhoods.
When will renovations begin and what does Coney Island look like in winter. Is anything open?
Don't quote me on this, but I think it's in 2 years.
Is anything open during the winter? Astroland is not, maybe a few of the arcades are open but that's about it. Nathan's, of course, is always open.
--Mark
(Is anything open during the winter? Astroland is not, maybe a few of the arcades are open but that's about it. Nathan's, of course, is always open.)
The Aquarium is open. Generally you're better off approaching Coney from the W 8th Street side, entering at the Aquarium. Of course, the aquarium would like to move, since they have such trouble attracting people from around the region to Coney Island. Otherwise, Coney is a bleak place in winter. That's why I think a large enclosed commercial entertainment center would be a good thing. That 12,000 seat arena might also have been good, but they gave the site (and $50 million) to the Mets instead.
Thanks for the update Mark. I'm planning on coming back down to NYC sometime this winter bringing my wife to show her Coney Island. A place she has heard so much about yet has never seen.
I get the impression Coney Island never got out of the 19th century let alone the 20th. As sad as it might be Coney Island's history has been washed away years ago. It is only a skeleton of it's former self.
This land is a gold mine waiting to be redeveloped. I believe it's only a matter of time before some big corporation takes over and errects a hugh multi entertainement complexe that would run year long. No doubt governement taxe credits would be needed to attract them but the neighborhood's economy would be revived, creatig jobs, building shops, parking lots, and the long awaited renovation of the Stillwell ave station. A former post mentioned that the aquarium wanted out. This is the last thing the Island needs. Keep what is and start building around it.
The Government should look at investing a little bit in this hystorical part of land.
>>> what does Coney Island look like in winter <<<
Even in its heyday, Coney Island was pretty much of a ghost town in the winter. The season was from Memorial Day to Labor Day, with the rides getting much business from beach goers, and only a few of the major attractions and the penny arcades stayed open the year round. There were certainly no crowds around, and because the area was built to hold crowds of pedestrians, this made it look even more deserted.
Tom
[Unless you have read up on current affairs, most people's image of The South Bronx is still how Howard Cossell described it during the 77 world series, Harlem is still mostly Afro-American. Of course this is now false. These two neighborhoods have gentrified themselves over the years.]
On a news broadcast this morning I heard that the real estate prices in Harlem were artifically inflated and that the "boom" that was supposed to happen was all a sham. I guess Charlie Rangel will have some explaining to do...
[When will renovations begin and what does Coney Island look like in winter. Is anything open?]
The Stillwell complex is due for renovations sometime in the next two years. Obviously, this is long overdue, and it will be a MASSIVE project, most likely inconvenicing thousands of riders unless it is done in various "stages" which means the work might last longer than expected.
I believe the arcade games may be the only things opened during the winter months. But I'm not a resident there, so I don't know for sure.
BMTman
[I hate saying this because I'll bum some people out but I'm from Montreal. I went down to NYC this past summer, only to be very disapointed by Coney Island. It was the area I was looking forward to seeing the most. It was scary at night. Graffiti all over, closed up shops, steel gates. I came back the following day only to see police presence all over (very intimidating) no rides running;]
First of all, what time of "night" are you referring to? Midnight, 9ish, 10ish or sometime after 1 in the morning? Coney Island during the peak summer months stays open quite late if I recall, so if you are talking about 9 or 10 at night, things should still have been open and lots of people would have been around. Yes, the place has graffiti, but also keep in mind that some of the "graffiti" is not random defacement. Alot of the roll-gates on the aracde and smaller rides were commissioned by the ride owners. You will note that much of these murals relate to Coney Island in particular or the ride/establishment behind the gate.
Also, keep in mind that the projects themselves don't make a neighborhood "unsafe". Unfortunately, the notorious LA-based "Crips" and "Bloods" gangs have made in-roads in the CI projects and their presence is now known in the area. This is a NATION-WIDE problem, not just confined to NYC.
BTW, Donald Trump's dad is responsible for the Trump Village housing projects that are to the north of the West 8th Street station. We were robbed of not only of having a better Coney Island vista, but also of having a bona-fide Brooklyn-based trolley museum (Yes, I said that correctly -- a trolley museum). NYC and Trump pulled the rug out from the ERA (and some other group) who were to create a trolley storage facility on what is today the Trump Village complex (the SBK McDonald Ave tracks were to be used for revenue-running purposes). This is another story for another thread, unfortunately.
Sorry for the long post.
BMTman
Wasn't Jungle Habitat in Bergen County somewhere? It went out of business after GA (with Safari) opened.
You could be right -- it's been awhile.
As a teen, I could have sworn that 'Jungle Habitat' was interconnected with -- or just 'down the road' from Great Adventure.
Maybe someone else can help out here on the geographics of those two theme parks in relation to each other?
BMTman
Jungle Habitat was in West Milford, in Northern New Jersey. Six Flags Great Adventure is in Jackson Township in Central New Jersey. Many miles seperated the 2.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks. That's Passaic County.
Actually it should have read "the animals were drugged" :)
--Mark
The problem with reviving Coney Island is not so much political, social or financial. Has it ever occurred to anyone that for six months out of the year the place is almost inhospitable? (whipped by winter winds and surf that makes the area attractive only to "Polar Bears and Penguins").
Who in their right minds is going to pump BIG money into an attraction that is based solely on summer season revenues. Not many, I'd guarrantee.
Seasonal limitations should not by themselves be a major obstacle to a revived Coney Island. Most amusement parks outside of Florida and southern California are seasonal rather than year-round. For instance, Cedar Point, one of the country's largest parks (and a perennial #1 choice among die-hard park fans), is both seasonal and has a decidedly non-tropical location on the shores of Lake Erie west of Cleveland.
What really constrains Coney Island is physical space rather than climate. Amusement parks are like supermarkets or home-supply stores, in that bigger is better ... or at least more desirable. People want major, destination-style parks with multiple themed areas and more rides than can be ridden in a day. Some smaller parks still survive, of course, but most of them are in shaky condition, as people increasingly prefer to visit mega-parks once or twice a season as opposed to making frequent trips to small local parks. As Coney Island lacks hundreds of acres of land for expansion, it's future has to be considered at least cloudy if not outright dim.
Who in their right minds is going to pump BIG money into an attraction that is based solely on summer season revenues. Not many, I'd guarrantee.
Hmmm ... you've just described New York City. They're building a minor league ballpark in Coney Island based solely on summer season revenues.
--Mark
I visited the ruins yesterday, and I have to say that even though the coaster holds virtually no memories for me, having been four years old when it closed and never being one for rides anyway, I couldn't hold back the tears when I first saw it. I joined the dozen or so people clamoring about the ruins, some treasure hunting, others just taking it all in.
So much for what was; on to what could have been: I discovered the Steeplechase Amusement Park EIS, dated March, 1989, in the office library today. From the table of proposed attractions, this would have been one railfan-friendly park! For instance:
12. Overhead Trolley -- An antique trolley that operates from a decorative iron clad station that runs through the park, with service extending to the end of the peir.
53. Street Cars -- Classic street cars provide inner-park transportation for guests.
65. Runaway Train -- Trolleys race through the streets of Coney Island narrowly missing the old jalopies and nearby structures.
Apparently, never to be...
Can this Steeplechase Amusement Park EIS get posted anywhere? Can I get a copy if at all possible?
--Mark
If they can revive Times Square they certainly can revive Coney Island. It is depressing to go down there and see so much of it a mess. If they put a grand effort into it Coney Island could be a great place once again were one wouldn't have to drive to get there.
BMTJeff
[If they can revive Times Square they certainly can revive Coney Island.]
True, but as mentioned by someone else, unlike Times Square, Coney island is a seasonal attraction. Now making this area an all year round attraction for families and tourists may take some doing.
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe the former industry of Times Square can be relocated
to Coney Island, then everyone can get off at Stillwell
HEH HEH HEH.
It's not completely appropriate to compare Times Square with Coney Island. Times Square is smack in the middle of midtown, and the list of to-do's for most tourists include only things within a two mile radius of midtown Manhattan. It's true that Coney Island has the mystique associated with it and would probably be the destination it was, except for the fact that it's an hour away from the Park Plaza, and one wants to squeeze as much as possible into each day of a vacation. Brighton Beach, Gravesend, and Bay Ridge aren't exactly tourist destinations, so why go all the way out there when we can see the Statue of Liberty, the World Trade Center, the Empire State Building, and the UN and still get to The Lion King on time?
Also note that, with the possible exception of St. George, very little tourist-oriented development is occurring outside of Manhattan. Most of what is being done for economic development in the outer boroughs is residential (e.g. Gateway Estates), local retail (countless Targets and Home Depots), or... here's the big one... local entertainment, like the Coney Island ballpark. This is a good thing, though; personally, I like it when money is poured into something that benefits the community, rather than deep-pocketed tourists. I'm placing my bets that the ballpark will draw more Brooklynites to Coney Island. More people means development is more worthwhile. So, no, it won't be Six Flags, but I'm guessing it will be an improved Coney Island.
(Also note that, with the possible exception of St. George, very little tourist-oriented development is occurring outside of
Manhattan. Most of what is being done for economic development in the outer boroughs is residential (e.g. Gateway Estates),
local retail (countless Targets and Home Depots), or... here's the big one... local entertainment)
It's worth noting that Brooklyn has far less than it's share of such development...about 100,000 jobs less. I'd like to see a major retail-entertainment complex arise at Coney Island in time for my girls to be old enough to take the subway there on their own. There used to be one-million square feet of retail in Coney Island, along with all the entertainment venues and a hotel. NIMBYs be damned.
More retail would be great for Coney Island, but not if it means meeting the same fate as White Sands.
I say Brooklyn has less than its fair share of stores.
Better to build one than maintain an old neighborhood. There are a lot of other places where people can live in an anachronism.
Bill Newkirk:
It can be done. I wonder what someone would think about putting a dome over the "Cyclone" roller coaster and winterizing the B&B Carousell so that both of these attractions could be used year round. Don't forget the possibility of building an indoor amusement park.
BMTJeff
Forgive my youth, but is the "Thunderbolt" the same coaster as the "Thompson" coaster that has been closed for years?
Is that the coaster with ivy grown all over it on the right when you're walking from Stillwell Ave to the beach? If so, I can't wait to tell my friends, we saw it and we were like, "I don't think I want to ride that one." It looked kind of cool the way it was, though. Kinda sucks.
And then there was one.
Coney Is. Coaster Tumbles to Ground
BTW Mark, did they use dynamite to bring it down? I was searching through the news channels but I didn't view any articles of it at all. Just the news article online.
They pulled it down with a long steel pole with a claw at the end. I have almost two hours of demolition video. I have pictures of the demolition. To see them, Access the following site:
http://community-2.webtv.net/BUDDR32/CTA1/
-Mark
I'm glad I got to see it one more time from my great vantage point, i.e. the Wonder Wheel.
Mr t__:^)
Back in July 1969 they issued a large pamphlet to the riding public that were touting the brand new R44 subway car as well as brand new services. One of the new services was the 2nd Ave subway (originally was to be an IRT line) which was to run from City Hall to East 180th Street in The Bronx on one branch and Whitlock Avenue on the 6 on the other with thru service to Dyre Avenue and Pelham Bay Park on both 2nd Avenue branches. That of course got deep-sixed. Here were the proposals that were listed and cancelled(some were implemented) in the brochure issued by the NYCTA in July 1969:
1)48th Street Crosstown: between 1st Avenue and 12th Avenue. Unknown as to whether it was IRT or IND/BMT.
2)63rd Street Connector IND: it was to be a "super express" line with no stops between 57th Street Manhattan and Continental Avenue in Queens. This line was to be run via the TA subway portion of the 63rd Street tunnel and not the LIRR portion on the lower level.
3)Northeast Queens Line IND: was to run from Woodhaven Blvd station on the G/R lines to Bayside via the Long Island Expressway.
4A)Demolition of the Jamaica El from north of 121st Street station to 168th Street(IMPLEMENTED).
4B)Southeast Queens Line IND/BMT: replacing the Jamaica El, was to run from Van Wyck Blvd(E) and 121st Street(J) to Springfield Blvd. via the LIRR Atlantic Branch(IMPLEMENTED up to Jamaica Center).
5)Nostrand Avenue extension: IRT service was to be extended from Flatbush Avenue(2,5) to Avenue W via Nostrand Av.
6)Utica Avenue line IRT: was to run from Utica Avenue station(3,4) to Avenue U/ Kings Plaza via Utica Av.
7A)Demolition of the 3rd Avenue El in The Bronx(IMPLEMENTED).
7B)Re-construction of the 3rd Av el(IRT) service which was to run via Park Avenue(Bx) along the Metro-North tracks up to 233rd Street station(Woodlawn-Harlem Line Metro-North station). This was obviously not implemented. The TA would not have torn down the 3rd Av el if they had been able to forsee the mid-1970's fiscal crisis.
8)Canarsie Line extension and relocation: One branch was to be extended from Rockaway Parkway to Flatbush/Nostrand Avenues and connection to the IRT. The other branch was to leave the L line at New Lots Avenue and was to run to the Brooklyn/Queens border near the Grant Avenue (A) station. Both were to be fully underground lines.
With these new lines, the current elevated L line tracks from Bushwick/Aberdeen to Rockaway Parkway were to be demolished. Think about it, the Canarsie Line today could have been mentioned in the same breath as the 3rd Avenue el and the old Jamaica Avenue el(168 St).
In the pamphlet, the TA said "Funds have been earmarked for these lines by both NY State and NY City". All these lines were at the time part of a $1.3 Billion(1969 funds) program and all these lines were scheduled to be up and running by 1980. It instead turned out to be a major disaster.
The 63rd St super express was to be in addition to local Queens Blvd service which is to open in a couple months. The super express was to use a completely different tunnel from the connector to Continental Av. This tunnel was not built.
The Northeast Queens line was to be an extension of the Queens Blvd service.
What do you mean by tunnel? Was it supposed to branch off after 21st to run on its own ROW?
(see my other response)
If the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line was extended, I'd live next to a Subway Line. :)
The 2nd Ave line would NOT have been IRT-spec. The R44/46 were bought for it. The aforementioned IRT lines were built to BMT spec, and modified for the IRT. THe plan had always been to have the IND recapture them, and convert.
-Hank
In fact, every line built after the original IRT fully opened in 1908 was built to BMT specs. That includes the 7th Ave. IRT (below Times Sq.), the Lexington Ave. IRT (above Grand Central), the Flushing line (east of Queensboro Plaza), and the White Plains Road, Pelham and Jerome Ave. els in the Bronx. It was always planned for many of these lines to be converted for BMT/IND usage, and the IND Second System included the conversions of the White Plains Rd and Pelham lines in the Bronx.
Does that mean South Ferry was built to BMT specs?
South Ferry was part of the original IRT. The 7th Avenue Local was only connected into it.
No. South Ferry was an original IRT station. The inner loop, built later, is not BMT/IND compatible.
You were absolutely right about the IND theory.
After looking closer at the pamphlet, it shows that the 63rd Street tunnel would have had two branch-offs at 2nd Avenue. One would head uptown from the Lexington/63 station and one would head downtown from the Roosevelt Island station.
Yes, and there are bellmouths in place for the latter connection.
IIRC, the 48th St. crosstown line was to be a so-called "people mover" system, not actually a subway line at all. I think this meant something like an airport-style "moving walkway", though it was never described in detail.
One of the new services was the 2nd Ave subway (originally was to be an IRT line)
Nope. The IRT lines connected to it would have been converted to BMT spec.
48th Street Crosstown: between 1st Avenue and 12th Avenue. Unknown as to whether it was IRT or IND/BMT.
Neither. It was planned as a wierd peoplemover.
63rd Street Connector IND: it was to be a "super express" line with no stops between 57th Street Manhattan and Continental Avenue in Queens. This line was to be run via the TA subway portion of the 63rd Street tunnel and not the LIRR portion on the lower level.
Wouldn't it have to stop at Lexington, Roosevelt Island and 21st Street?
Demolition of the 3rd Avenue El in The Bronx(IMPLEMENTED).
Re-construction of the 3rd Av el(IRT) service which was to run via Park Avenue(Bx) along the Metro-North tracks up to 233rd Street station(Woodlawn-Harlem Line Metro-North station). This was obviously not implemented. The TA would not have torn down the 3rd Av el if they had been able to forsee the mid-1970's fiscal crisis.
Where would it connect to the south?
Canarsie Line extension and relocation: One branch was to be extended from Rockaway Parkway to Flatbush/Nostrand Avenues and connection to the IRT. The other branch was to leave the L line at New Lots Avenue and was to run to the Brooklyn/Queens border near the Grant Avenue (A) station. Both were to be fully underground lines.
With these new lines, the current elevated L line tracks from Bushwick/Aberdeen to Rockaway Parkway were to be demolished. Think about it, the Canarsie Line today could have been mentioned in the same breath as the 3rd Avenue el and the old Jamaica Avenue el(168 St).
Another plan for the Canarsie line involved the construction of the Queens Interborough Expressway. Originally the expwy it was supposed to run from the LIE and the BQE to where the Interborough ends. From there a driver would continue down the Bushwick Expressway which would run in Conduit Boulevard to the airport (it would run from the Williamsburg Bridge). When the city unofficially decided to shelve the Bushwick, the QIE plan was extented to Exit 14 on the Belt along Van Sinderen Avenue, where the Canarsie line would have been demolished and placed in the freeway median. All of these highways were cancelled in the early 1970s (too bad). If the Bushwick had been built, then perhaps the Broadway El would be demolished and replaced with a median route. I guess we'll never know. (the Broadway Line is cool, good thing it wasn't replaced with a freeway median)
>>>Where would it connect to the south?<<<
It would have terminated at 149 St/Grand Concourse.
>>>Wouldn't it have to stop at Lexington, Roosevelt Island and 21st Street?<<<
Yes it would have. It says "Super-express line in Queens between Forest Hills and Long Island City feeding into the new tunnel".
With your other question stating that the super-express line was to have it's own ROW. Yes, that's what I meant by having a new tunnel built.
In my opinion, I wish (as a railfan) that these people had been thinking about something else besides this plan or at the least have the fiscal crisis start 5 years earlier. This was the summary of the 1969 plans that were carried out:
1)Demolition of 3rd Ave. el
2)Demolition of Jamaica el(168 St)
3)Opening of 63rd St tube
4)Opening of Jamaica Center spurs on E/J lines.
Unfortunately, the TA bit off more than it could chew. The Board of Estimate approved 11 new subway lines. If the TA had focused solely on the one or two lines it had the money to build, perhaps we would have seen their full implementation. For example, if instead of building the two Second Av segments, the money had been invested into the 63rd Street line, or reserved for the Archer Av project (begun in 1972, if I recall correctly), then perhaps we would have seen a fuller implementation in Jamaica, or the 63rd Street extension opening sooner than it did, or...
But it is really easy for me to "Monday Morning Quarterback," so I don't want anyone to take this rave too seriously. I am happy that we have a useful 63rd Street line now, with the engineering in placeto build a bypass (or other service) in future, and the contributions that the Archer Av project in its current form have made to Jamaica speak for themselves.
#6. The Utica IRT extension.
The provisions are there as they started to build this connection. You can see from the head end of the NL bound (local) platform at Utica. I wish that this was done. How many more buses can you add to the B46????
Train#1912Mike
[8)Canarsie Line extension and relocation: One branch was to be extended from Rockaway Parkway to Flatbush/Nostrand Avenues and connection to the IRT. The other branch was to leave the L line at New Lots Avenue and was to run to the Brooklyn/Queens border near the Grant Avenue (A) station. Both were to be fully underground lines.
With these new lines, the current elevated L line tracks from Bushwick/Aberdeen to Rockaway Parkway were to be demolished. Think about it, the Canarsie Line today could have been mentioned in the same breath as the 3rd Avenue el and the old Jamaica Avenue el(168 St).]
zman, this is some interesting stuff! I knew about the other proposals, except the one above. How was the Canarsie/Flatbush connection to be achieved? My only guess would be that the TA was eyeing the Bay Ridge branch of the LIRR to make it work w/o upsetting the infrastructure of the neighborhoods along the route. Was there a map or chart showing the proposed routes to be built??
BMTman
Yes there is a map on the brochure but it's not to scale.
I would attempt to scan it but I am worse than "computer illiterate".
"Computer imbecile" would more aptly describe it.
It looks like the entire length of the Canarsie/Flatbush connection would have been built under Flatlands Avenue.
The 2nd Avenue line was never concieved as an INTERBORO RAPID TRANSIT route.This route was planned from the begining as an IND line even before the 8th Avenue line was planned by Mayor Hylan.Why the west side lines were built first is beyond me.
The west side lines were built first because before WWII the east side below 49th street was pretty crappy -- Slaughterhouses where the United Nations is, big gas storage tanks in the area where Peter Cooper/Stuyvesnant Town and the Manhattan VA hospital are, a more threatening Bowery between Cooper Square and Delancey St., and the section of the Upper East Side between Sutton Place and Yorkville wasn't any great shakes, either.
The west side in 1925-30 was still where most of the business was, where everyone headed to and from Europe went to catch the ocean liners at the Hudson River piers, and the area did (and still does) include entertainment sites like the Time Square Theater District and Madison Square Garden.
Putting two lines in on the west side while the Third Ave. el was still serving the poor folk on the east side made sense in 1930, but if it had been planned out 15 years later, they probably would have opted for a Second Ave. line and possibly a Sixth/Eighth Ave. combo route like the ones the B and D take from upper Manhattan, while running trains off Sixth and Second Aves. to Queens via 53rd St. (in which case Houston St. or Delancey/Grand would have been the IND's major Manhttan merger point instead of West Fourth St.)
I asked that question long time ago and there's the answer, thank you.
Arti
I've been doing some investigating regarding R-142 deliveries and found out from a friend about scheduling of the delivery:
Canadian Pacific is dispatched to the Plattsburgh Facility to pick up the 142s riding on flat cars rather than their own wheels. It runs down to NYC by way of Selkirk Yard on Monday's, Wednsday's, and Friday's which explains why the consist has been spotted on these days. For example, Friday 1/7, 6306-6310 were delivered. Wednsday 11/2, 6331-35 were delivered. Deliveries are done within the confines of CP's schedule. One thing I cannot explain is why the R-142 travelled up from Linden Yard on a Tuesday Night. A SubTalker spotted them the previous day at Fresh Pond, so time was apparently lost in transporting the cars. One would ponder they stayed over night at Fresh Pond and weren't moved until the next day.
In general, CP picks up the cars at Plattsburgh over night, and gets to Oak Point by dawn. The consist remains in Oak Point for a few mins, as the locos run around their consist and pull them in the opposite direction towards the Hell Gate Bridge (because the locos face north on the NEC as they go around the Harlem River). I estimate by 8AM or maybe 9, you might spot them crossing over Ditmars Blvd while the consists heads toward Fresh Pond. Canadian Pacific stores it locomotives at Fresh Pond during the day. During the midday, the 142s are unloaded off the flat cars and run on their own wheels with a NY and Atlantic Rwy engine to Linden Yard. By night fall, the cars get transferred to 180th Street Yard (on a Mon, Wed, or Fri). It makes sense for the most part. If I could get a CP shedule, I'd have a better idea of what was going on.
I suspect that since 6341-45 were delivered this week, we should see 6346-50 maybe on Monday. If I could get to Oak Point Yard early in the morning, I'd know for sure. Will my "eyes and ears" be watching at Fresh Pond and Linden Yards?
-Stef
Does anyone here suppose that we could have strictly yellow NYCT locomotives picking up the 142s at Linden Yard rather than having SBK engines, or is there an FRA related issue which would explain why they always do the deliveries? Is it possible that these locomotives travel out of NYCT to Fresh Pond? Just a thought.
-Stef
Stef, I think we discussed this on the drive up to Branford, but for the benefit of our fellow SubTalkers, I'll post some of the thoughts I share with you on Saturday.
My idea is that diesels N1 and N2 would be dispatched to Linden Shops because the tranfer of R-142's with the NY&A occurs OUTSIDE of the Linden Shops itself -- probably on the Bay Ridge "mainline" trackage just outside the gates. Obviously, if New York and Atlantic engines were to "back-in" the delivered cars into the Linden Shops (or within NYCT property) then a good guess would be that standard MOW diesels could be used for the trek up to Westchester yards via the New Lots Line.
Whenever NYCT needs to enter upon or transfer goods with a Class-1 RR, they are required by FRA law to use locos N1 or N2 which are the only units of the transit system that are equipped with the federally mandated features.
BMTman
Actually the NY&A does directly deliver the R-142's to Linden Yard. I was the conductor on the train that delivered the 2nd set of R cars earlier this year, I forget the month. We used GP-38 270 to bring the cars from pond to the TA. Imagine the 270 running long hood backwards pulling 5 R-142 cars down to Linden yard. (Tight fit) The engine barely cleared the entrance to the yard by a inch. Now the cars are 'shoved' from pond to the TA using a smaller engine. Occasionally a GP if power is tight. The SBK has running rights over the Bay Ridge branch on the weekends, however they do not execute their rights to run. All interchange is done in TA's Linden yard, not on the main.
Thanks for the info, Slayer.
[The SBK has running rights over the Bay Ridge branch on the weekends, however they do not execute their rights to run.]
Interesting info about the SBK. Perhaps there is no need for South Brooklyn to use Bay Ridge trackage on weekends -- at least as of yet -- hence no request for them to use those rights.
BMTman
Is there a railroad storage area @ Fresh Pond? or There's another Fresh Pond somewhere in the City Limits.
A railroad storage yard crosses beneath the M Line in the vicinity of Metropolitan Av. Best views of Fresh Pond Yard are from any LIRR Train running on the Long Island City Branch.
-Stef
Do you know exactly where the yard crosses under the M line, because I firmly remember them being parallel? Although a while ago there was talks of a freight train derailing and striking the iron work for the M line. I could just never figure our where they actually cross. Shortly after Fresh Pond Rd on the M there's a downgrade and the M pretty much runs a grade level. I'll have to take another look.
You could of course, break out your street maps and try to find Otto Road and (I think) 68th Street in Glendale. This is the entrance to the NY&A Fresh Pond Yard. From the entrance you can see the entire yard (it's a small place). There's usually NY&A personel around there, so maybe you can ask some questions and get some more info.
NYPD detectives, like hanging out here since they can't seem to keep kids off the tracks and out of the cemetary. I got questioned, being only 19, what I was doing there one day trying do some R142 spotting. I guess they have good reason since once I was walking the tracks home from school (IS 119) many years ago and almost got run down by a LIRR GP :). That was before NY&A took over.
When you railfan, please be careful as you may run into trouble with the authorities, no less having to worry about a freight train coming your way.
Fresh Pond Yard is in the vicinity of the Metropolitan Av M station. When a freight car hit the trestle supporting the tracks for the M, service was halted until that mess was cleared up.
The Yard crosses under the line, at a 90 degree angle to the M. The track that is parallel to the M at Metropolitan Av is the NY Connecting RR track that takes freight cars across the Hell Gate Bridge and into Oak Point Freight Yard.
-Stef
Additional Details: New York & Atlantic Railway has security guards on duty most of the time. If you are not obnoxious, pushy, or appear to be a 'foamer', and you tell them you'd like to photograph some of the equipment and/or moves within Fresh Pond Yard -- they shouldn't have a problem with you doing so.
Good Luck.
BMTman
Thanks for the info, as railfans like us could use that as a word of advice.
The SBK Locos have departed for home, wherever that may be. Let us attempt to track them down. Best guess is they went all the way back to 38th Street Yard. When the time comes they will return again. So for the 142 pickup, they'll run from 38th Street Yard to Linden Yards via Montague Street Tunnel and East NY Flyover. Go from the B to the N to the J to the L, and into Linden they go!!! Who's to say that they don't get stored at Linden Yard though?
On the subject of what makes N1 and N2 different from the standard TA diesel, the difference appaears to be strobe lights on top of N1 and N2.
-Stef
[On the subject of what makes N1 and N2 different from the standard TA diesel, the difference appaears to be strobe lights on top of N1 and N2.]
Stef, I think this was covered before, but they also have dual air-horns, FRA grab-irons and a ringing bell when they are in motion.
They are also the cleanest diesels in the entire system.
BMTman
You're right. They just don't appear dramatically different to me. It is possible for the SBK engines to be used in regular work service, and I have seen a locomotive pulling a standard work train on one occasion.
-Stef
Hmm. I'm just leaving for work Mondays around noon. If you think the R142's should get to NY&A Fresh Pond by around noon then I'll go check it out.
Good idea. They should have something there.
-Stef
Can anybody tell me why the R-110A's are not on service?
Thnanks.
R-29
Read the FAQ. Detailed answer is in there. All I know is it was involved in a fire and/or it had brake problems, but I'm not sure.
They are being overhauled for use with R142 cars, including a re-arrangement of the seats to the traditional IRT all-bench format. They will return to service one day.
Thanks for the info Chris.
I'm sad to see the R110A seating arrangement change. The foward facing window seat on an IRT train is unheard of and I will miss it. In my lazy world, this is the TRUE railfan window.
I'm sad to see the R110A seating arrangement change.
I am too, Chris! I think the R110A is the only IRT train to have the R46/68 type sating. Not to mention that they are a different color in each car too. If I'm not mistaken, R142 seats will be the replacement? -Nick
I don't know why, but i like the R-110A over the R142's especialy
the front face, unfortunately,i moved out of NYC in 1983, and only
been for vacation twice first in 1987 and then in 1994,unfortunatey
i did not get to ride the R-110A's, i now live in Orlando, FL and
i don't know when i can go to NYC for vacation.
unfortunately yes. they are getting seats of the R-142/142A due to its original seats drawing complaints of uncomfort and they take up space with their arrangements making hard to pass through the cars.
Terrence
I am also saddened by the change, especially since I have never been able to ride those cars, thus never experiencing the forward-facing IRT seat.
Will the R110A keep its original car numbers?
Train#1913Mike
I am also saddened by the change, especially since I have never been able to ride those cars, thus never experiencing the forward-facing IRT seat.
Pic is less than 6K, so no one complain.
The R110B was the one that had a fire.
Or did both the R110A & B both have fires?
Nope, only the R110A had the fire. The R110B still makes one full trip a day M-F, check the FAQ for further info. -Nick
I remember months ago that someone here on this board posted pictures of some R46 cars on the Eastern Division (J,M,Z,L) lines? Whoever was the one how posted those pictures could you please posted again because I want to print copies of it to be a part of my collection.
thanks.
Those pictures were posted by BMTLines, who has been AWOL for months now. I think they are available on his site (still up).
Thanks Chris R16 for helping me but I was looking all over BMTLINES website & I couldn't find the pictures of the R46 on the Eastern Division line? And I even checked the roster on that site & didn't came up with the R46 pitures, it only had "standards" picture. thanks for helping me but I have to still keep seaching for those pitures.
You might have a long search, R-46's never ran on those lines.
Peace,
ANDEE
In 1976, a fantrip of new R46 cars did. A poster posted pictures of the R46 descending down the ramp at Fresh Pond Road and crossing the Williamsburgh bridge.
If 75 foot cars don't fit on the Eastern Division, how did they pull it off?
they can ride the M line and make the turn at Myrtle if there isn't a train coming in the other direction ( not pratical in reg. service)
Exactly. The only 2 completely unpassable points for 75' cars are at Grand St. on the L and Crescent St. on the J.
Chris, Which turn is tighter? I was of the opinion that the Fulton-Crescent was tighter than the Jamaica-Crescent. I judged that by the difference in wheel squeal. I wonder if they are really both the same.
The Crescent/Fulton turn is tighter, and has buildings right up to the edge of the Manhattan-bound track which would come in contact with the body of any 75' car passing it.
Thanks! I had a feeling that Fulton-Crescent was tighter!
And judging by the remaining steelwork, it was even tighter prior to conversion to subway standards. I cant imagine how the narrow el cars even managed to navigate the older curve!
Back in the days before the el had the trackside walkway on the outside of the turn, when a Standard screeched its way around the curve on its way to Jamaica, the motorman in his cab appeared to be hanging out in thin air.
It must have been a terrible feeling for a motorman to go around that curve!
amin peralta:
You should note that the R-44s, R-46s, R-68s & the R68As cannot run on the Eastern division of the BMT (J,L,M and Z trains) because of insufficient clearences for those cars.
BMTJeff
R46's did in 1976, during an ERA fantrip. The train ran up the entire Nassau St. line and across the Willy B to Metropolitan Ave. 75' cars CAN clear the sharp S curve above Myrtle/Broadway, but the clearances are so tight that if 2 trains in opposing directions tried to, they would side-swipe. The Crescent. St curve is competely impassable by 75' cars, as is the tight curve near Grand St. on the L.
Chris R16:
If I'm not mistaken the BMT "Standards" had some problems with those tight curves that you mentioned.
BMTJeff
The ends of the BMT standards wouldn't align on the tight curves, which necessitated keeping the storm doors locked. Other than that, two trains could and did pass each other without sideswiping.
Steve B-8AVEXP:
I would say that the 7'6" difference in length between the BMT "Standards" vs. the R-46s made a difference between the cars sideswiping or not sideswiping each other on tight curves when the trains passed each other.
BMTJeff
Yes. That short clearance necessitated some BMT tunnels being shaved as a result of the R-9 "whisker" car that checked for clearances before the R-44s began running.
--Mark
Actually, the whisker car was R1 #192. Here it is in action in 1971:
What ever happened to the whisker car, did it wind up in the Naporano Scrap yard? Don't tell me it is somewhere in the backlot of the Coney Island Shops.
I assume it was scrapped after testing was done. I can't think of any other purpose it could serve.
The photo was actually of Car #XC376 which was built by the NYCT from R-12 #5781. It was the sister car to XC375 built from R-22 #7509. I have no clue as to where they are now but I suspect that they may be in 207th St yd. (Source NYCT Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing Manual)
There doesn't appear to be anything peculiar at 207th Street Yard. 7509 (XC375 in work service) was sent to scrap in 1996 with a Rider Car, and a White R-17, 6845. As told by an Electric Railroaders Association Article, 7509 resumed it's duties as a clearance car on the way to scrap. The car was testing clearaces on a reconfigured section of SBK Track around the Costco Warehouse.
For those who don't know, 7509 is a survivor from the experimental automated shuttle of the 60's. Her mates were destroyed during the Grand Central fire in 1964.
Let us also point out the reason behind the IRT extra clearance cars: To study the feasibility of 64' cars on the IRT, which never materialized.
-Stef
This is something I've never heard of. Is it possible to use cars longer than 51' on the original sections of the IRT?
Sorry. If you extended the car length on the IRT, the centercasting would cause the car to make contact with the tunnel walls on curves.
I heard it was the 14th St. platform (and perhaps also 72nd St.) that killed that idea.
[I heard it was the 14th St. platform (and perhaps also 72nd St.) that killed that idea.]
How about South Ferry and City Hall loops ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Perhaps longer cars would be in order for the FLushing line. 10 56' cars would almost equal the 11 car 51' trains running today. The downside is that these longer cars would be useless on any other IRT line ...
I had asked someone about that, but they said that the Steinway tubes had gentle curves that would rule them out. After all, they widened it barely enough for the present cars, and even still, the R-62's got their guard lights knocked off. So there seems to be absolutely no room in the tunnel for any increase in car dimensions.
Main Street
Flushing, QueensTimes Square
Manhattan<--Local-Express-->
That was proposed back in the 80s and the contract wound up as a 51' R-62, it never saw reality.
-Stef
The original Market Srteet Subway and Elevated portion of The Market-Frankford Line was based on IRT dimensions and used 49' cars. It was not until Frankford Elevated extension opened that they used 55' cars on the entire route, and I'm sure that they did not do many modifications on the structures, except for the subway replacement in 1955. So it may be possible to use longer cars.
The whisker car Train Dude was referring to was an R17 at 207 Street Yard. All these whisker cars were cut up for recycling. I think the R17 was tugged off in 1993 or 94.
Then what was the purpose of the split R1 #192?
The R1 was used to test for end excess and overcenter excess on the B division as well as SIRTOA properties, to avoid damaging new car equipment, as well as determining where tunnel clearance needed improvement.
[Then what was the purpose of the split R1 #192? ]
Evidence of #192's (aka XC=575) work can be seen on some curves if you look out the railfan window and see concrete that was chipped away to allow the 75 foot cars to negoitiate the curves.
The clearance car paved the way for the R-44,46 & 68's. Let's not forget SOAC too !
Bill "Newkirk"
He took that picture down. I had it in my favorite places, and after awhile it was gone, and I think he announced he was taking it down too.
Posted
Sunday, November 19
1:45 PM
>> Those pictures were posted by BMTLines, who has been AWOL for months now. I think they are available on his site (still up). <<
Sorry to disappoint - the site www.bmt-lines.com has no relation to the person who used the handle BMTLines. The pictures you are looking for were never posted on that site.
I should know - its my site.
Apologies.....I must've posted the url of the wrong site. He does have a site up, but I guess I forgot to bokmark it. The pictures in question were definatley on it.
I had a link to his site on my site. It was "http://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit/nyctransit.html" I tried the link today and unfortunately it does not seem to be good any more.
Darn. I wonder what happened to him? Passed away? Kidnapped by aliens?
Could or would any of the 75ft. cars be able to negotiate the route of the "K" line . That is from Canarsie , eastern Pkwy , Willy B Essex cut off to 6th Ave line?
Anyone know , Yes or No ?
avid
Probably now, that the curve on the approach to the bridge was rebuilt. And they're rebuilding all the stations on Broadway, including the local platforms practically from scratch, so they should have extended them to 600ft, then they could do something like send the out onto the eatern div., even with 8 car R-46's. But they never think of things like that. No, keep the Eastern div. incompatible with the rest of the B div.; almost as separate a division as the A div.
Probably now, that the curve on the approach to the bridge was rebuilt. And they're rebuilding all the stations on Broadway, including the local platforms practically from scratch, so they should have extended them to 600ft, then they could do something like send the out to Eastern Pkwy or Canarsie, even with 8 car R-46's. But they never think of things like that. No, keep the Eastern div. incompatible with the rest of the B div.; almost as separate a division as the A div.
I believe they could, except for the possibility of that sharp curve the Manhattan bound track on the Canarsie line takes just north of Sutter Ave.
Is BMTman out there , I trust his knowledge of that particular branch.
Would they be to heavy for the Broadway El of the Willy B? It would be a nice boost the riders.
If nothing else it's a nice fantasy! But no railfan window.
Forget the whole thing! But it would make for a nice video, the R68s snakeing their way from the Canarsie line into the Eastern Parkway Station of the Nassau bound track.
avid
The R-46s wouldn't have any problem on the Broadway elevated portion, which was upgraded to handle steel subway equipment in 1916. The BMT standards ran there for years, and they were heavier than any of today's equipment. Even the Triplexes could run along Broadway, but seldom, if ever, did. Only the pre-1900 elevated portion along Fulton St. between Broadway Junction and Crescent St. couldn't support their weight.
As for the curve past Sutter Ave., it's coming down soon. That entire portion will be rebuilt and the Manhattan-bound track straightened out.
Was one one the grand schemes to replace that portion between Easter PKWAY and 75th St with a new Concret El above Jamaica Ave ? That seems to make sense. I think a connection from the Jamaica Line to the Canarsie would lend a nice security cushion or offer potential service flexibility.
avid
I'd love to see the Fulton St. el portion razed and replaced with an el down Jamaica all the way to ENY. With a 3rd track installed and an express stop built near Cypress hills/Crescent St, the express run would cut 10-12 minutes off the ride from Jamaica to Broad St. Even running local, it would cut 5-6 minutes off it by the mere elimination of the signal timers this part of the line requires. The new line would definatly be a better option over the E to get to the Financial district.
I read somewhere that the R-44s, R-46s and the other 75 foot long equipment in the system cannot be used on certain lines like the Broadway -Brooklyn-Jamaica EL & the Canarsie line. Who made that goof when the equipment contract was drawn up, and why is this so? I recall that the R-9 which was modified to test the system for compatibility with longer cars was run on the Jamaica El, so what is the problem? Did those holding the purse strings ever hear of the old chestnut which says "PLAN AHEAD"? Sometimes I wonder what else could go wrong, but then I might not want to know.
The 75' cars cannot clear the tight turns at Crescent St. on the J, Myrtle Ave on the M and the curve near Grand St. on the L. This was known before the 75' cars were bought, and the 75' cars were never intended to run there anyway.
The 75ft cars were never meant to go on the eastern part of Div B. There was no mistake except the rash of N drivers wanting to go that way...
So, just what are the advantages of the 75-foot cars? (R44, R46, R68, R68A) I mean, the trains of 75-foot cars are actually a little shorter. There are less doors per square foot. They are (if anything) slower than the 60-footers. And they can't run on the L, M, J or Z. So what is the advantage?
Andrew
The 75 foot car carries more passengers for the same amount of traction equipment than a 60 foot or 51 foot car. Whether you have a 51 foot or a 60 foot or a 75 foot car, you still have 4 traction motors per car or two trucks per car. An 8 car train of 75 footers has 32 motors whereas a 10 car train of 60 footers has 40 motors, hence a savings of 8 motors which translates to lower per train capital and maintenance costs. An 8 car consist of 75 foot cars is 600 feet of train whereas a 10 car consist of 60 foot cars is also 600 feet of train length. You could argue that cabs also take up room but c'est la vie. The 75 foot cars as they are currently configured and geared will run up to 50 mph or so straight out as designed. With the original gearing the R-44 cars I believe were tested on LIRR tracks to much higher speeds but the R-44 and R-46 cars were geared down on overhaul.
[An 8 car consist of 75 foot cars is 600 feet of train whereas a 10 car consist of 60 foot cars is also 600 feet of train length.]
Actually, 60 foot cars from R1 through R42 are 60'6", or 60.5 feet. A 10 car train of these cars, therefore, is 605 feet.
The R-44s and R-46s were designed for 70 mph speeds, which would have been the norm on the 2nd Ave. line, had it been built. The R-68s have a higher gear ratio than the R-44s and R-46s, and while this permits higher speeds, it also causes greater speed loss when climbing river tunnel grades. It can be likened to an automobile trying to climb a hill in fifth gear.
How do 67' cars fit into this?
If you mean the experimental R-110Bs, I don't know why the MTA considered this. Maybe to rule it out, or to save some money by having 9 67' cars in a consist (603') instead of 10 60' cars.
In any event, the R-143s are to be 60' cars.
--Mark
The old BMT standards were 67' long, and were able to run on the eastern division; the thought in making the R-110B 67' as well was that this would also be able to run on the eastern division. There was some problem with this, though - I think it had something to do with the spacing between the trucks being to long on on the 110B for them to run in service on the eastern division.
subfan
I believe, for some technical reason, something to do with the axels, that the R110B cannot clear the problem tight curves that keep the 75' cars off the eastern division.
Someone here explained it well a few months ago. The trucks on the A/B's were had the same spacing as the 110B (about 47'), but the wheels had different diameters, and the bolsters were not centered. This somehow made those cars able to negotiate tighter curves.
5001
on the
Ditmars Blvd, Astoria Coney Island
75' cars have fewer parts (doors, trucks, brakes, etc), cutting maintenance costs. 75' cars also have a greater internal seating and standing capacity. Only the R68's are slower than 60' cars, and it's not because of their size.
75' cars also have a greater internal seating and standing capacity
The service load for the 60-footers is: 145; the service load for the 75-footers is: 175. A 10 car train of 60-footers has a service load of 1450; an 8 car train of 75-footers has a service load of 1400.
(The lower figure for the 75-footers does not include dimpled passengers.) :-)
This doesn't jive with numbers which were posted earlier. The 75' cars have more seats, that's a fact. I was also told the 75' cars allow for more standing room. Perhaps the definitions for "service" were recently changed.
The figures I cited came from two different planning studies that are available on the web. One was written by NYCDOT in the 1980's and the other by the MTA in the early 1990's.
I am not aware that any recount has been certified.
I am not aware that any recount has been certified.
LOL. I'll accept your figures. Now if only a certain desperate Democratic presidential candidate would do the same ...
This doesn't jive with numbers which were posted earlier. The 75' cars have more seats, that's a fact. I was also told the 75' cars allow for more standing room. Perhaps the definitions for "service load" were recently changed.
(The lower figure for the 75-footers does not include dimpled passengers.) :-)
But does it include pregnant passengers?
MisterK:
I don't think that there are any advantages to the 75' foot cars except that you have 2 fewer couplers per 600' long train and 8 fewrs trucks per 600' long train. Last year I started a post titled "Why I think the TA should get rid of its 75' foot cars. Another disadvantage with them is that they cannot run on the eastern division of the BMT which are the J,L,M and Z lines.
BMTJeff
Two fewer couplers and two fewer trucks per train realizes a cost savings for the TA. Also, what are the passenger loads on the J,M,L and Z versus the lines which the 75 foot cars run? The Queens Blvd line is one of the heaviest travelled in the city and they run 75 foot cars to try to accomodate passenger capacity albeit the lines are still overcrowded.
Try to remember the fiscal environment when the 75 foot cars were ordered. Money was tight. The TA was operating at a loss, and service (and patronage) was going down, not up. The TA needed to invest in its infrasturcture as frugally as possible. So a decision was made to order 75 foot cars, where 8 cars could do the same work, and be the same size, of a 10 car train consisting of 60' cars. That's two less cars per train. Using the 756 car order of R-46s as an example, that would require a 945 car order of 60 foot cars. If each car cost $1 million, that's a savings of $189M. Not small change.
When the R-68s were ordered (not delivered), the MDBF of the entire fleet was lousy. Some car classes couldn't get beyond 6,000 miles before a failure. The mindset then was that individual cars (breaking the married pair concept) would allow greater flexibility in line assignments when breakdowns would occur.
Now that the fleet is in a state of good repair and MDBF rates exceed 100K miles, and with the SMS program in effect that repairs components before they are expected to fail, the TA can realize economies of scale by removing redundant components ... that's why R-44s, R-46s and R-68s are being linked into 4 car sets, and why the newest cars coming in are also expected to be linked in permanent sets. It saves big bucks.
The drawback of a 75 foot car is it's diminished capacity to handle loading and unloading, increasing dwell times, which could cause schedule delays. That's why the E train has R-32s .... 40 door openings in a 10 car train of 60 footers vs 32 in an 8 car train of 75 footers. That, as well as that these cars will live out their lives on the routes to which they are assigned now, since none of the 75 footers can run on the Eastern Division. They are less flexible in that regard.
(Did I write all this? :)
--Mark (who received NO help from heypaul in deciphering these statistics)
Now that is the clearest explanation that I have ever read. Thanks.
JailhouseDoc:
Someone made the goof when they decided that it would be O.K. to have 75' long subway cars. I think that it was a big mistake in the end. Last December I started a post titled "Why I thnik that the TA should get rid of its 75' cars". I went into detail about the disadvantages of the 75' subway cars and one of them was that they couldn't be operated on the eastern division of the BMT (J.L.M. and Z lines) and that they should consider articulated subwat cars instead such as a modern version of the BMT "Triplexs" or "Multi-Section" cars.
BMTJeff+
In the early 1970s, the TA was forced by the federal government to purchase the R-44 & R-46 type cars lest they not receive the massive 90% (IIRC) subsidy. The subsidy was based on employing new technology and not trotting out old (albiet proven) designs. While the R-44 was less so, the R-46 was and is a good piece of railroad equipment. 50% of it's early problems revolved around the fact that the NYCT was il-equiped to maintain its sophistocated technology. The other 50% was due to poor & deferred maintenance. Those problems are long gone and the cars perform extremely well. As for scrapping the R-44s and R-46s, your argument is ridiculous. Why should the TA get rid of over 1000 subway cars just because they can't negotiate one turn in the entire system, Ridiculous. Should AMTRAK scrap the AUTOTRAIN because it can't fit through some tunnels? Should the LIRR scrap the C-3s because they can't run into Brooklyn? I think your all or nothing attitude lacks adult logic.
The MTA cries like a baby about not having money for needed projects, yet money is wasted in many ways. If there was one type of subway car for the A division, and another type for the B division, then money could be saved in that only one type of replacement window glass would need to be in stock, only one type of traction motor would need to be stocked, and I believe you can see where I am going here. The variety may be pleasing to some of us, but the reality is that it can be expensive to have many different kinds of spare parts for the system, rather than one type for all the rolling stock. Repairs would or should be less expensive, and cannibalizing a wreck for spare parts would greatly help the bottom line. I understand that the Feds insisted on the new technology, but some serious consideration as far as utilization should be made before signing up and paying out large sums of money. However, what is past is in the past, so we must move onward, and hopefully learn from our mistakes, and try not to repeat them.
Perhaps you mis-read the first line of my posting. The TA (Pre MTA) was forced by the federal government to purchase subway cars based on the SOAC prototype. If they opted for more R-42s, the federal government would not have funded the project so generously. As for a standard subway car, like many ideas, it looks good on paper. However, if we adopted that philosophy, we'd still be running R-10s with no AC & pneumatic doors. I think it is unreasonable to forego new technology when designing railcars just as it would be unreasonable in your automobile or home appliances.
Train Dude:
I'm not against new technology when it has been properly tested and proven to work but, when the TA was ordered to use new techology they should have told the government that 75' long cars cannot be used in the system and they would have to build R-42 type cars but, with the new technology available at the time. This would have been a reasonable compromise but, somebody didn't use their head. I don't think that the TA should get rid of their 75' cars until it is time to retire them due to old age but, the TA should not order 75' cars again because of the problems of running them on the eastern division. They should consider articulated cars once again similar to what the BMT had but with modern technology. As for interchangability of parts between the A and B divisions I can see that traction motors, trucks, windows, signs and perhaps a few other items can be interchanged between the 2 divisions but, you'll never have 100% interchangability between the a division (IRT) and the B division (BMT/IND).
BMTJeff
Why does the impassibality of 2 curves on the entire b division preclude the purchase of 75' cars in the future, if these car have proven benefits? It just doesn't mke sene to me, what you're saying.
Would it be cost effective to modify the places where the R-44s and R-46s cannot negotiate so that future purchases would not be subject to these problems? Once done, then there should be no more assignment headaches.
Not really. There are 752 R-46s. it's not like there are enough to operate all over the system. There are barely enough to make up F,G, & R service.
What problems? They just can't run on the J/M/Z and L lines. Solution? Dont run them there.
Agreed, but when faced with a shortage of equipment due to some maintenance problem, the ability to assign any rolling stock to any division would be sorely needed. Just a thought from an interested observer.
That's why the next 2 orders of B division cars MUST be 60 footers. By the time the R32's finally get retired, there needs to be at least 500 60' cars to equip the entire eastern division. That's why I believe the R160 should be 60' as well as the R143's that are on order.
why couldn't the eastern division be renovated to run 75 foot cars?
Chris R16:
What I'm trying to say is that the TA should have a B division car at a length were it can run on the eastern division without a problem. True it might be possible to modify those two curves to that they can run 75' long cars on the eastern division without a problem. I think though it would be better to have an articulated type of subway car so that they would be dealing with fewer couplings. It also might be possible to add or subtract car sections if necessary if they design the cars properly. In my own opinion a 60' car length would be the best length for the B division because they could run anywhere within the B division without a problem.
BMTJeff
The TA has nearly 600 cars which are 60' and can pass those curves with no problems. They're called R32's and they won't be going anywhere for 12-15 years. By then, the R143 and the new R160, which has to be 60', will easily hold down eastern division service into the mid 2000's, when all current 75' cars will be nothing but memories.
The 75' ban on these lines is not any problem that's worthy of all this discussion.
There are other places 60' cars seem to handle better, most notably on the Broadway line.
That S curve between Cortlandt and City Hall on the Broadway Line. The
75' cars really crawl through there, almost come to a complete stop. But when on an R32 N or R, they negotiate the curve much quicker.
Same can be said for the curve between 57-7th and 5th ave on the Broadway Line. And on the IND the Slants seem to handle the curves better as well between Grand and Broadway Lafeyette.
I like the 75' cars but in the long run 60' cars will probably fare better.
What do you mean by handle better? Does the R32/40 give a smoother ride than the R46/68?
They all do the same speeds through those areas.
City Hall to Cortlandt St. 10 mph, most T/O's do around 12-13.
57 St. 7 Av to Fifth Av. 15 mph
Grand St. to Bway-Lafayette 20 mph southbound then no restriction after curve. 25 mph northbound throughout
I notice no difference between the R46/68'S and the R40/32's at these curves.
I'd like to see 60' cars with forward facing seats, like the R10/R16's.
The MTA cries like a baby about not having money for needed projects, yet money is wasted in many ways. If there was one type of subway car for the A division, and another type for the B division, then money could be saved in that only one type of replacement window glass would need to be in stock, only one type of traction motor would need to be stocked, and I believe you can see where I am going here. The variety may be pleasing to some of us, but the reality is that it can be expensive to have many different kinds of spare parts for the system, rather than one type for all the rolling stock. Repairs would or should be less expensive, and cannibalizing a wreck for spare parts would greatly help the bottom line. I understand that the Feds insisted on the new technology, but some serious consideration as far as utilization should be made before signing up and paying out large sums of money. However, what is past is in the past, so we must move onward, and hopefully learn from our mistakes, and try not to repeat them.
Why should the inability to negotiate the Crescent St. curve preclude the purchase of 75' cars, when they can run safely on 75% of all B division lines?
I agree that the system now needs to purchase a large quantity of 60' cars so enough will be on hand when the R32's finally start falling apart.
JailhouseDoc:
Someone made the goof when they decided that it would be O.K. to have 75' long subway cars. I think that it was a big mistake in the end. Last December I started a post titled "Why I think that the TA should get rid of its 75' cars". I went into detail about the disadvantages of the 75' subway cars and one of them was that they couldn't be operated on the eastern division of the BMT (J.L.M. and Z lines) and that they should consider articulated subwat cars instead such as a modern version of the BMT "Triplexs" or "Multi-Section" cars.
BMTJeff+
I am extremely pleased with the job that the MTA has done with rehabilitating the Concourse Line Stations. 161-st complex is about 75% complete. The Tremont Avenue Station is about 85% with new station entrances and tiling finished. Also a lot of new things have been added to that station. I cannot wait until Bedford Park Blvd is completely rehabilitated and once it is I know it will look awesome. The stations that I think need to be fixed the most is the 155 St and 183-182 St Stations. They need to be habilitated and once that happens maybe more people will take the train from those stations. But the MTA is going 24/7 with the rebuilding and I am happy to see it.
Christopher Rivera
It does look good, but they should really fix up 205th Street. It can look pretty bad at times!!!!!
205th St. is by far the worst looking station on the whole line. The whole platform is littered with water leaks.
Chambers Street (J/M/Z) gets that honor.
--Mark
As doesthe Bowery, pending completion of the current rehab.
I say Broadway and Van Alst stations on the G line receive the dubious honor of being the worst in the system.
Broadway has that weird brown slime coating the floors and walls all over the station.
Van Alst is just plain scary. If the condition of the station with it's musty smell, many water leaks(I hope it's water) and paint peeling off the ceiling and landing onto the platform for the length of the station doesn't scare you, then the homosexuals waiting on the platform for a piece of meat surely will(trust me, they're NOT waiting for a train). The last problem is not as bad as it was two years ago but it still exists.
Funny story about Van Alst, my good friend who was a TA structure maintainer(now foreman/MS 1) was working a pick in the repair truck with his partner about 6 years ago. He was new at the time. They received a call from downtown to reseal a temporary wall blocking a closed stairway at Van Alst. When they arrived, his partner told him that it was an easy job and that he could do it himself. So my friend went downstairs while his partner waited in the truck.
When he got to the broken wall and closed stairway at the far end of the station, he looked inside. There were about eight men having sex on the stairway and there were feces all over the floor by the entrance. A man came up to him from behind and not so subtlety invited him to join the "action".
My friend RAN out of that station and when he got to the truck, his partner was rolling on the floor laughing at him. Needless to say that wall and stairway was not fixed.
Now if Van Alst station is not the NASTIEST station in the system then I don't know what is.
Funny story about Van Alst, my good friend who was a TA structure maintainer(now foreman/MS 1)was working a pick in the repair truck with his partner about 6 years ago. He was new at the time. They received a call from downtown to reseal a temporary wall blocking a closed stairway at Van Alst. When they arrived, his partner told him that it was an easy job and that he could do it himself. So my friend went downstairs while his partner waited in the truck. When he got to the broken wall and closed stairway at the far end of the station, he looked inside. There were about eight men having sex on the stairway and there were feces all over the floor by the entrance. A man came up to him from behind and not so subtlety invited him to join the "action". My friend RAN out of that station and when he got to the truck, his partner was rolling on the floor laughing at him. Needless to say that wall and stairway was not fixed.
This incident actually illustrates the importance of transit to NYC. In most parts of the country, an activity like that which your friend saw would have taken place at a highway rest area (the writers of There's Something About Mary were right on the money). But in NYC, with its emphasis on mass transit over the private automobile, those people chose to use a subway station rather than heading off to the nearest rest area. They are to be commended :-)
So, so ... finish the story! FINISH THE STORY (pant, pant).
Was the wall ever fixed? :)
--Mark (suffering delusions from the chemical in turkey that causes hallucinations)
Turkey and mushrooms?
Arti
I don't do fungus. Yeech!
--Mark
Oh I just thought that the chemical you were referring to came from the mushroom stuffing :-)
Arti
You don't do fungus? Shame on you! I don't put mushrooms in stuffing, but that's because the fresh ones are in the salad and the picked ones are in the relish tray... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm sorry, but I don't like mushrooms (although I'll enjoy Chicken Marsala in its mushroom sauce so go figure :)
One good look at Chambers Street and you'll dislike fingus, too!
--Mark
Oh well I was referring to totally different mushroms :-)
Arti
You were refering to 'shrooms, right? :)
The magic ones, as he mentioned some "chemical" effects of the dinner:-)
Arti
Up until they fixed it, Cortlandt Street on the Broadway Line(N/R) was dilapidated. I remember many holes in the wall, frequent water damage, and fungus. Now, the station looks nice so the worst station is Chambers Street on the Nassau Loop(J/M/Z).
Considering the amount of passenger traffic, width of platform and general appearance of station it is Lex/53rd St. I heard that a station renovation is coming up, yet I recently saw a copy of a legal notice that said that the TA will be accepting bids to construct an additional escalator and not much else in addition to that.
I will second Mark's vote and go with Chambers Street; NOTHING is that bad, ANYWHERE in the system. It was bad last year, it's worse this year.
The WORST list:
1. Chambers Street (J/M/Z)
2. Bowery (J/M/Z)
3. Broadway (G)
4. Brook Avenue (6) (this is being fixed)
5. 21st-Van Alst (6)
6. Lexington-53rd Street (E/F)
7. 205th StreetB (D)
8. De Kalb Avenue (D,M,N,Q,R)
9. 59th Street (N/R)
10.Coney Island-Stillwell
wayne
I presume you mean 59th Street in Brooklyn rather the 59th/Lex Complex in Manhattan?
Yes that is the one - 59th St-4th Avenue.
wayne
Wayne: It just cannot be worse than Stillwell Avenue. Thank God they're finally going to fix it up, even it is four decades late.
I read a few years ago, that the Van Alst station was used for prostitution. I didnt think it was used for homosexual acts as well.......
Train#1917Mike
I grew up around Yankee Stadium, so your posting helped make my day.
Tiling is not finished at Tremont. They still have the entire southbound side to do.
Peace,
ANDEE
Atwhich stations does the reconstruction include ADA access (elevators, ramps etc for wheelchairs)?
161 River has ADA compliance being built into it. Do not know about Tremont.
Peace,
ANDEE
And it looks pretty good too. They used the right color maroon but they used the wrong (Canal, 207th Street) font for the captions.
wayne
I wonder if the MTA has plans for the unused mezzanine at Bedford Pk.
My guess is no, as it could be an invitation to trouble.
Tremont is moving along a lot faster than 161st. I'm glad they eliminated the solid metal walls on the upper level; those were installed in the 1960's and were horrible. If they were to deter crime, or shield the wind, they did neither.
Joe C.
At the 14th St/8th Ave (IND) station, some interesting sculptures have been installed under the stairways. Two in particular, i find somewhat amusing. The first is an aligator protruding from a manhole, grabbing a 'commuter'. The second is two gremlins with a saw, sawing the column that supports the stairway. Just wondering if anyone else has seen these and/or if there are any opinions of this type of art.
Yes, Train Dude, I saw them a few weeks ago... and did a double-take! I'm glad SOMEONE in the system has a sense of humor. (It would be fun to hang out there and watch others' reactions!)
(as seen on "David Letterman")
...we got COYOTES!!
At Canal St. A/C/E the fare control grilles around the tops of the stairways (check the northernmost staircase to the southbound platform) have iron birds sitting in them...
And on Lexington Avenue at 43rd(?) Street, one of the canopies over the entrance to Grand Central Terminal has three big rats climbing up the support struts. There are even cones to prevent them from continuing their journey!
--Mike
those rats have been there for a long long time... on a tour of grand central station, the guide pointed out that they were depicting a practice of ships tied up to a dock... the ropes leading to the ship have those cones to prevent rats from coming from the dock along the ropes onto the ship...
Yeah, but technically those rats are on the Graybar Building which isn't MTA property. One of the architects at Beyer Blinder Belle, which did the resto on the Graybar (and GCT), said his favorite part of the whole job was writing the words "restore rats" on the drawings!
>>>And on Lexington Avenue at 43rd(?) Street, one of the canopies over the entrance to Grand Central
Terminal has three big rats climbing up the support struts. There are even cones to prevent them from
continuing their journey! <<<
Funny you should mention that. The rats have been there since 1926.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/bestiary/bestiary.html
Whitehall has ceramic Seagulls. Pictures will be forthcoming once our belvoed webmaster catches up.
i haven't seen them, but i am all for it... the gremlins sawing away the supports of the staircase brought to mind an episode of the twilight zone, where william shatner, who had just recovered from a nervous breakdown, is on a plane and sees a gremlin walking around the wing of the plane trying to mess up the engines... unfortunately no one else sees the gremlin, and he almost gets a trip back to the hospital...
I remember it well. I also remember seeing a remake of that episode - possibly in the TwilightZone movie?
I remember seeing a remake of the episode in one of the Treehouse of Horror episodes. Except that here the protagonist is Bart Simpson and the vehicle is a School Bus.
Bart finally uses a flare to burn the gremlin, but that's not before the bus is damaged and Bart blamed.
Ned Flanders picks up the wounded gremlin. He apparently nurses it back to health (not shown).
Bart is then tied in a straight jacket and carried in an ambulance marked New Bedlam Mental Hospital. And then the gremlin again wreaks havoc! This time he holds up Flanders's disembodied head for Bart to see.
>>>I also remember seeing a remake of that episode - possibly in the TwilightZone
movie? <<<
That one was with John Lithgow.
I think the sculptor's name is Ottillie, or something similar (I have it somewhere). He also did the sculptures in the north end of new Hudson River Park north of the WTC.
The alligator-manhole thing is also in Metrotech Plaza (where Myrtle Avenue used to be).
www.forgotten-ny.com
And, perchance, were any of the stations remodeled/rebuilt with Federal funds? Remember 1% for Art? It's in almost every Federal Transit project.
His name is Tom Otterness. The BPC sculptures are HUGELY popular with the many kids in the park.
I saw something like these on a building doorway I believe West 41st Street just east of 8th Avenue - was that the Tiffany building?
They have alligators chomping on straphangers on both platforms at 14th Street; and there are other critters up above the stairway ledges.
I think the birds at Canal Street are probably cast-iron pigeons.
wayne
> I think the birds at Canal Street are probably cast-iron pigeons.
Looked more like blackbirds or crows to me...
We saw those sculptures at 14th St. on our expedition last month.
Is there still a throne at 116th on the 1/9?
There are thrones in every station but most of them are closed to the public. 8-) (sorry, couldn't resist)
Peace,
ANDEE
Rim shot!
Any word or (consist) numbers for the
REDBIRD train which was stated to have
"died in service" at 59th Street on
9/30/00??
I doubt the TA will make rapairs on those if the R142s/R142As are coming to replace them.
running on...
As with the recent incident on the 4,
if a redbird car has a "dead motor"
or "powers out".. does that also
disable the attached coupled cars?
In other words.. if the problem was
just on (say) one car of the ten,
would the other nine have to be put
OOS or could they be unattached and
put back in service elsewhere?
The only effect that a dead motor on a single car has on the rest of the consist is that it makes the other motors work a little harder. Trains are not taken out of service on account of one dead motor.
In order to take a train out of service, a train must have at least three dead motors on it(according to the NYCTA rule bulletin).
Let's try it again...
What are the whereabouts of the ten
REDBIRD cars which composed the train
that "died in service" on 9/30/00?
Hi people, thanks for giving me this possibility....
I'm a subway driver in Milan, Italy, I would want to talk about subway with other drivers in all the worlds. My e-mail is hkaza@tin.it
Thanks again Stefano Zanini
Took a railfan trip on the Metro today. Took the red line to Gallery Place, transfered to yellow towards Huntington. They were inspecting the Fenwick Bridge so we were crossed over to the northbound track just north of L'Enfant Plaza and crossed back to our normal track just north of Pentagon City. Took this train to Huntington. We got up into the 60s between National Airport and Braddock Road. Doubled back to King Street where I caught the blue line to Franconia-Springfield. Took that to its terminal. While at King Street, I saw Orion VI 2005 with a banner on the top reading Here is your new MetroBus. Reliable and Easy to Board. When I passed Alexandria Yard, I saw 2 Rohr cars with roll signs reading "NO PASSENGERS". On the return trip, I couldn't see the unit numbers. Anyone know why these cars have the roll signs and which ones they are?
The board under the escalator with the next train in n minutes was removed in favor of the PIMS. The only problem with that is the PIMS doesn't say when the train will leave. It did this at Huntington as well. The train I had taken to Franconia-Springfield left while I was taking pictures, and it was a Rohr and I wanted a Breda, so I waited for the next train which was a Rohr, too. I took it anyway and passed the next Breda train at King Street. I took this to Metro Center, where I caught the red line to Grosvenor. Then, I took the next train to Rockville. They were doing track work between Twinbrook and Shady Grove so we had to hold at White Flint for 2 minutes and Twinbrook for about 5 while we waited for the sngle track to clear. I got off at Rockville and took the T2 home.
On board the T2, a passenger threw up. The throw up made its way into the stairwell for the rear door and under a seat so the bus was now 2 seats short of its normal capacity, but there weren't many passengers so it didn't really matter. Point is, if you eat and leave your food/drink at your seat, you make your seat very undesirable. That is the explanation for the arrest and why the Law is the way it is.
WTOP Radio reported this morning two trains collided on the Green Line section that will open in January. No details.
Here's a picture of the mysterious steelwork. The steelwork is actually WEST of the LIRR turnoff, as this picture clearly shows. Perhaps a crossover once existed here. You can see that it's way too long to be the supporting structure for a mere switchhouse.
The diagonal appears to have been for a crossover, while the remaining steelwork is of the appropriate size for a switchtower.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't be decieved by the picture. The steelwork is at least 3 girder-lengths long. That's excessive for a switchtower. It's the same length as the steelwork for the Crescent St. terminal.
The crescent street structure also looks like it could have been an extended third track. This could also have been a third track.
Here's the view from below
Bob, the small building appearing on the el structure in your picture, that is missing from Chris' picture. Is that one of the many buildings created by the new signaling system?
Yes. The picture I posted dates to 1972. It also doesn't show the afformentioned mysterious steelwork.
If that photo dates from 1972, there are a few observations:
The QJ was still in use as a train marking; it became the J in 1973.
The lead R-32 in the photo is sporting original route and destination signs. Very few R-32s displayed destination signs up front after 1968 or so, when they received multicolored route curtains which were installed in the destination slot.
The train appears to be free of any graffiti; the graffiti epidemic took hold in 1972.
I guess now I know that R-32s served the Jamaica el in 1972! Funny, now some of them are on the Queens IND serving the Jamaica el's replacement subway (or at least one level of it).
Back the the Jamaica line was served with R7, R9, R16, R27/30, R32's AND R42's. Possibly all in one single train as well....LOL.
And yes, I know R7/R9 cars couldn't MU with later equipment.
I just got to see your picture Chris, and it is a good one. The girderwork in the foreground is the type of crossover steelwork that I remembered. I also remembered stubs remaining on the south side of the structure (the Atlantic Ave side). The girderwork in the distance does not jog any memories. I guess it has been too many years since I studied it. I do know there was a second crossover west of the LIRR cutoff crossover, as well as a switchhouse. My elderly neighbor never mentioned another station, and I have not been able to find any reference to another station between Norwood and Crescent in any of the books that I have. The structure has been there for over 100 years, and I guess that anything could have happened in that time!
More info will be coming in Mark Feinman's forthcoming BMT History Page but the structure is the former Chestnut Street Incline. My source was an old NY Div ERA Bulletin. This line ramped down to street level from El Level. Joe Brennan hasd also verified this. There is also the old Cypress Hilsl **terminal** which is a stub end (now gone) just Geographically west (on Crescent Street) of the present Cypress Hills STation on jamaica Avenue.
Today I took Amtrak train 56 from New Haven to Amhearst MA. I learned that the line from Shore Line Jct. to Boston has had the wayside signals removed and now only runs w/ signals at interlockings. all interlocking signals have the telltale C indication for a cab signal system failure.
In this new timetable, Amtrak eliminated Vermonter stops at Meriden and Berlin CT, to improve times. However, they also implimented a 25 mph speed restriction through the towns of Meriden and Wallingford which slows travel time considerably. Furthermore, because of some of the block legnths there was an excessive amount of time spend at Limited speed preparing for the end of the passing siding.
From New Haven to Springfield we only had 1 F40 on the rear. This meant that the control cab was used along w/ its railfan window. Needless to say, our train had the acceleration of a cobble stone. However, at Springfield a second F40 was atached to the head end and we made back 10 minutes between there and Amhearst (train was 5 min late). I did miss the RFW view though.
Amtrak has 2 radio defect detectors on the Springfeld line and both give a location (BERLIN and WINDSOR) and temperature (44o).
The radio frequency of the Springfield Line is the same as the NEC, 160.920.
I talked w/ a Amtrak worker at New Haven and he said that after Amtrak gets its 85 new P42-9DC's the F40's in New Englande shuttle service will be replaced by the freed up P42-8's. The worker said he liked the F40 and said "they are a good little engine, very reliable."
Today, while buying a heavenly meatball sub from te New Haven Station Subway, I saw a ramdon man personally thank an Amtrak conductor (lady) who was also into to buy her lunch. He was impressed w. the way she handled some sort of unruley passenger and he offered to buy her lunch. She declined and said she was just doing her job.
As an aside, if a passenger offeres to buy your meal (or some other expense) for doing your job particiulary well, should you refuse. I know that all employees should do their job w/o needing special rewards, but if nobody ever accepts the "lunch" offer, people who do the offering will expect not to be taken up on it and the whole gesutre will become meaningless. I think that it is necessary for at least some employees to accept extra rewards for their services just so the act of offering maintains validity.
I think this would be like accepting a tip. Amtrak conductors are never supposed to accept tips.
* I do have some complaints as to how we were treated by amtrak on the super chief return trip to los angeles from chicago.
also the lake shore limited does have its setbacks. It is not that i will never ride amtrak again anywhere especially cross country again but i will just have to spend the bucks & ride the sleeper car next time riding coach cross country made me want to return to riding the dog!! ( greyhound ) I will have to post on the details on this mater later... hope your trip was an enjoyable one. I did like the view from observation car.. not so bad. !!!
Then you should write Amtrak and tell them...thye are TRULY interested in their cust service these days...You just MIGHT get a free ride!
I have on occasion seen railway employees (both subway and railroad) do some very outstanding things. In one case, a subway conductor wearing his cap (good thing, I was able to read the number) not only called every station, but stepped out of his control booth, assisting an elderly lady in safely getting off the train, helping mothers with kids, and still getting the train rolling again in a timely manner. After I wrote a letter to MTA about him I got a nice letter back telling me he would be rewarded.
In each case, I noted their badge number and name, wrote up a letter of commendation citing specific details, and sent it to either the President of NYCTA or Amtrak or whichever agency was relevant.
NYC bus drivers can be commended by calling the TA and nominating them for an Apple award.
Having worked in service jobs before, and knowing how unreasonable some customers can be (but not excusing poor service in any way), I venture that the thank-you was probably reward enough for that Amtrak Employee. I imagine she goes home most nights wondering why she is in such a 'thankless' job. If I were that employee, the fact that the passenger took the time to thank me would be thanks enough, and it would probably have made my day. Now, next time she has a bad day, maybe she'll remember that not all passengers are a**holes. I often try to make a point of telling someone when they have provided out-of-the-ordinary service, which in New York might mean simply that they gave me a pleasant smile and thank-you.
I recently got a tour of the new Queensboro Plaza master Tower. Those who were familiar with the small towers that made up the NYCT system for 75 years are usually impressed witht he master towers already in service. However, this tower has two unusual features that set it apart from the other master towers.
First, this tower is unusual because it controls trains on all 3 divisions. It controls the #7 from Grand Central to 74th St. It controls the 'N' line from Lexington Ave to Astoria. It controls the Queens Blvd lines from Roosevelt Avenue to 50th St. and the entire 63rd St connection. I can think of no other tower where all 3 divisions can be controlled.
Second, It has LCD computer displays that mimmic the model board. The display will span 2 screens and can be enlarged or shrunk to virtually any side. What's really nice is that the tower operator can operate the switches from the model board or via the LCD display. The movement of the trains can be more clearly seen on the LCD screens.
All in all, the new tower is quite impressive.
Does this new system identify the idividual trains or simply identify whether or not a block is occupied? e.g can does the system tell the tower if a "northbound" #7 train is an express or local or whether it is bound for 111th, Willets Pt or Main St.
From what I saw, the tower only identifies ocupied blocks.
the tower only identifies ocupied blocks.
I dare say that the only impressive thing about this tower is the colossal waste of money. What they have done is use more modern technology to replace a 50 to 80 year old system with no increase in functionality.
As far as the TA is concerned, every Master Tower is able to cut jobs since one tower operator will now do the work of several tower operators who would be formerly working in smaller towers. And as a bonus, the part time towers and those only needed to reroute trains in a service disruption would be in effect covered because the master tower now has control over that interlocking. So it's a WIN WIN situation because eventhough they can't use capital money to pay employee salaries, but by using the capital money they can save salaries. And since every transit system is so labor intensive, the savings = increased productivity by the remaining tower operators.
every Master Tower is able to cut jobs since one tower operator will now do the work of several tower operators who would be formerly working in smaller towers
This presumes that a single tower operator is capable of replacing several opeators.
I've observed many instances where trains are unnecessarily delayed due to switches that are not thrown in a timely manner. I have not been able to ascribe these delays to a tower operator being inattentive or overworked because I was not observing from inside the tower.
Switching is the operational aspect that is most amenable to complete automation. All that is necessary is a set of rules and knowledge of which trains are where at any given time. The TA is perpetuating a wasteful system by installing a new tower without the capability for complete automation.
I can confirm the fact that as a NYCT motorman, a day doesn't go by in which I am needlessly delayed by an inattentive tower operator in which I have to get on the radio and ask for a lineup. What I love is the stop at Continental Ave. The towerman sees the train out the window, has to log in my arrival time on his gap sheets, and still many times I have to slow down, sometimes to a crawl, sometimes getting on the radio, to request the signal at 75 Ave. where the E and F branch off during the day. Despite this, one day last week, an F train received an express line up. The motorman questioned it and they told him to stop and stay while they changed the line up. There is no reason for this to happen when the tower operator physically sees the trains!
I've was on a train at Prospect that took the wrong line up, moved into uncoming traffic. He realized it after the first truck was well past the points.
The T/O kept trying to raise DeKalb Tower, no answer for at least 3 minutes when Command comes up and asks the Q driver what happened. Then command calls Dekalb over the same radio and wow, they answer....
What do you mean into oncoming traffic?
Remember, it takes two guilty parties to go the wrong way:
one to offer the wrong lineup, and one to accept it. In the
old days the motorman was responsible for knowing the PC of the
lines they were qualified on and the important lineups for
their route. Now, judging from colorized cheat-sheets posted
on the walls and columns near homeballs, that knowledge has
been allowed to deteriorate.
Coming into Prospect Park on A4 we got Green over Yellow for A3, half the car went over the switch before the T/O woke up.
Turned out the tower was supposed to give that lineup to the following train which was going out of service and back to the yard. I assume the Tower knew the mistake since they didn't answer the T/O's call but once Command got into the act the tower heard the train fine. We went far enough over the switch to loose A/C. I posted this here when it happend,at first people didn't believe we moved A4 to A3 but we did. Contintued into the park on A3 and discharged and that train went back to Brighton O.O.S. while all the happy pax walked up and over.
Ok, that's not exactly "into oncoming traffic", as in an unsafe
condition. In order for that ball to be cleared, a long line of
opposing balls on A3 track had to be held back first.
Expect at least two people to get in trouble over something like
that: the towerman and the motorman. The rulebook says that
the motorman must stop and verify any lineup that would take the
train off its route (things like local/express notwithstanding).
I don't know if these new computer-driven master towers can
or can not maintain train status information. In theory, since
(other than call-ons or key-bys) there is always a one block gap
between trains, and since the computer knows the alignment of
all switches, the algorithm to keep track of the train's ID
once it is manually keyed in (at the entrance to the master
tower's control) isn't hard.
Although I'll miss the unit lever towers, consolidation makes
a lot of sense both from an economic and a dispatching viewpoint.
Right now, each tower controls a very small interlocking territory
and is flying blind with respect to other traffic interactions.
Command/Control center is totally blind. Also the new towers
will have automatic route request logic to do first-come,
first-serve and punch box routing without human intervention.
New tech isn't always bad. The only big problems I foresee are
from the WinBloze platforms that act as user interfaces.
New tech isn't always bad.
My complaint is not against new tech. My suspicion is that the TA is still using old tech with a Windows front end.
The TA will be be using this technology until the CBTC system is implimented on the 'L' line. Once the technology has proven itself, the NYCT will be able to pinpoint the location of a train within 10 feet on tangent track and about 20 feet on curves. then you'll be able to 'see' actual train movement on the model board.
BTW: What US Systems already have a similar system?
The TA will be be using this technology until the CBTC system is implimented on the 'L' line.
So, having lived without this Master Tower for 50 to 80 years the TA decided to build one to the old standards. Of course they realize that the completion of the pro forma test of new technology on the 'L' within five years will prove to their satisfaction that this new Master Tower is already obsolete.
Once the technology has proven itself, the NYCT will be able to pinpoint the location of a train within 10 feet on tangent track and about 20 feet on curves. then you'll be able to 'see' actual train movement on the model board.
I'm sure that color motion pictures will keep the redundant tower operators amused. The goal should be to run more trains on the same track with safety and speed. 10 or 20 foot accuracy is not necessary for such a goal.
The quantization also too coarse to 'see' actual train movement. You need 24 frames per second to avoid flicker. At 30 mph or 45 ft/sec this means you will need slightly less than 2 ft accuracy.
BTW: What US Systems already have a similar system?
Why the US requirement? The CBTC system to be installed on the "Canary Sea" line is not made in the US. There is no US manufacturer for the crucial communications controller.
Now, if you are looking for displays that identify objects and position, the FAA has been using them for decades. If you are looking for controls systems that accurately control speed and position, look the the elevator industry. If you are still looking for made in the US and a railroad context try this:
Why do you keep on insisting that this is 50-80 year old technology?
QBP Master Tower is the latest and greatest in CTC (Centralized
Train {or Traffic} Control). It uses non-vital systems to send
commands to the field which are decoded by the equivalent of
programmable logic controllers and then checked by a network of
vital signal relays. CTC consolidations have been done by the
TA since the 1960s. Do you think Grand Central and City Hall
Master Towers were a mistake, and that there should still be
little unit-lever plants in service at Union Square, 59 Street,
etc. etc. ?
As it stands right now, on the Queens Boulevard Line, there are
discrete towers at Court Square, Queens Plaza, 36 Street,
Northern Blvd and Roosevelt Avenue. If you need to make moves
at those interlockings, you need to pay a towerman to staff the
tower. In addition, all of these plants are 1930s-vintage unit-lever
machines. Every move requires that the towerman throw a series
of levers, first normalling all conflicting signals, then throwing
the switch levers, then reversing the ball to admit the train
into the route.
Under CTC, likely one person will be able to handle this entire
area. Most routine moves will be made automatically based on
first-come, first-serve or motorman's route punch buttons. One
person will be able to quickly size up traffic conditions on the
entire line (or at least the territory included in this contract)
and make service adjustments accordingly. Right now, it's the
blind leading the blind.
I think these improvements alone are worth the cost, not to mention
lowering maintenance costs (try getting a new indication locking
magnet for a US&S model 14 machine). What happens with CBTC is
immaterial, but there is no reason to believe that this master
tower can not be adapted in the future to work with it.
[Why do you keep on insisting that this is 50-80 year old technology?]
At Shoreline in Branford some of this new technology is being installed ... the only thing 50 to 80 years old will be some of the operators ;-)
That includes me ... Mr t
Not to mention many of the cars in the museum's collection.:-)
"There you go again" changing the subject of the thread ... we were talking about signals.
As I sit here Steve is one of the folks I get special enjoyment out of talking with on-line, i.e. he's miles & miles away, but I can see him sitting in front of his monitor because he's one of the many SubTalkers I've had the good fortune to meet & railfan with. The fact that he's tall, like me, & knows the fleet first hand at Branford has nothing to do with it, NOT.
Mr t__;-)
I stand corrected. I'll take what you said as a compliment.:-)
BTW, good old 1689 is 60 years young now - hard to believe....
Why do you keep on insisting that this is 50-80 year old technology? QBP Master Tower is the latest and greatest in CTC (Centralized Train {or Traffic} Control). It uses non-vital systems to send commands to the field which are decoded by the equivalent of programmable logic controllers and then checked by a network of vital signal relays.
What are they using? What is an equivalent PLC? If they have a PLC, why is it necessary to wired relay logic? How long do you thing PLC's have been around?
CTC consolidations have been done by the TA since the 1960s. Do you think Grand Central and City Hall Master Towers were a mistake, and that there should still be little unit-lever plants in service at Union Square, 59 Street, etc. etc. ?
The question is one of time. Did the TA make full use of the proven technology that was available at the time that these towers were built? Conceptually and functionally Grand Central and City Hall are glorified remote control operations. This was all that was expected, when these towers towers were installed. However, inexpensive dynamic scheduling and control revolutionized the elevator industry starting in the 1970's.
Under CTC, likely one person will be able to handle this entire area. Most routine moves will be made automatically based on first-come, first-serve or motorman's route punch buttons. One person will be able to quickly size up traffic conditions on the entire line (or at least the territory included in this contract) and make service adjustments accordingly.
One key to optimum operation, where load time can be described as a concave increasing function of headway, is adhering to uniform headways. This requires making micro adjustments to the dwell times at each station, an undertaking that is beyond the capabilities of a single person. This is the type of load balancing control that has been used for elevators for more than two decades. The point is to avoid merging conflicts that result in a 1 minute delay regardless of the resolution algorithm.
One should reasonably expect any CTC system would have current information regarding platform loading from the turnstyle counts or other sensors. It would then adjust dwell times at each station to compensate for loading and headway deviations.
The major cost for most capital projects is the relatively fixed construction cost. The features I describe are are small compared to this fixed cost. I view building any CTC system without these features at the present time to be a lost opportunity.
Right now, it's the blind leading the blind.
Of course, without train identification on the display the the tower operator is just as blind. The only difference is that he has greater peripheral vision.
I think these improvements alone are worth the cost, not to mention
lowering maintenance costs (try getting a new indication locking magnet for a US&S model 14 machine).
All relays have been difficult to obtain for around 15 years. Solid state relays have been cost effective for around a decade.
The problem of maintaining obsolete equipment will only get worse as the technological useful life shortens. The equipment purchased today will be far more difficult to replace in 10 years, than 10 year old equipment was 50 years ago.
One strategy is to use a common communications interface that is likely to survive several generations. Unfortunately, the TA choice is already being abandoned by suppliers. One could understand their choice in 1991. I cannot understand their their refusal to correct this mistake before the rfq's went out.
What happens with CBTC is immaterial, but there is no reason to believe that this master tower can not be adapted in the future to work with it.
The question is whether a software rev or a gut rehab is necessary. If the latter is necessary, then the investment must have a five to ten year payout. I don't think so, with the high installation costs.
What are they using? What is an equivalent PLC? If they have a PLC, why is it necessary to wired
relay logic? How long do you thing PLC's have been around?
We've discussed this before and I can already anticipate that
you will make an argument about fly-by-wire airplanes. I will
therefore make a pre-emptory argument that although both railway
signaling and control of an airplane's functions are obviously
safety-critical, you will invoke that intuitively there is more
to lose in an airplane crash than a railway crash and therefore
methods which are safe enough for an airplane ought to be safe
enough for a railway, to which I would counter that such is
not a valid line of reasoning.
Simply put, there are different failure models between the two.
Primarily, an airplane can not, generally, fail-safe, because
shutting down is not an option. Railway safety models are based
on fail-safe, fail-stop, airplane models are fail-degraded.
For this reason, and you may think it overly conservative, the railway
signaling industry trusts electromechanical relays over
microprocessor-controlled systems. The latter are divided into
two groups: vital and non-vital controllers. A non-vital controller
is nothing more than an off-the-shelf PLC or embedded computer.
As you know, with a stored-program machine, there are two primary
sources of incorrect operation: an incorrectly-written program, and
a hardware failure that causes the program to perform an
undesired operation. That notion of harware failure also extends
to failure of input/output modules to either drive an output to
the commanded state or correctly sense an input voltage.
Relays have the advantage of having much less state than
processor-based systems. They also have 100 years of engineering
experience behind them. Every remotely likely failure mode is
understood and techniques to reduce failures are well-known and
standardized. The relays are designed so that most failures
are in the safe direction. Those failures that can cause
unsafe operation are extreme and readily noted with a simple
visual inspection. For example, vital signal relays will fail
clear if they are rotated 180 degrees or immersed in water.
Vital controllers, aka Vital Signal Processors,
are required to have relay-equivalent reliability. This means
that the software has to be rigidly checked from top to bottom
and mathematically proven to be a correct implementation that can
not produce an unsafe condition. This is pretty well understood
when the VSP is emulating traditional relay-based interlockings which
are just boolean logic, much, much more fuzzy when dealing with
new things like CBTC. In addition, the VSP must guard against
hardware failure corrupting operation. This is typically
implemented with a voting system in which independent processing
units must agree to turn on and off vital output lines.
Any failure results in total shutdown of the unit. Furthermore,
each output line must be designed with a special input module that
can detect when the line is still being energized after being
commanded off (e.g. a shorted-through output transistor). If
this condition is detected, the processors remove energization from
several "oh-shit" relays, which in turn interrupt power to
all of the controlled devices, causing a fail-stop condition.
All this means that VSP installations are actually not cost-
competetive with traditional relay-based systems at this time.
Therefore, most installations use non-vital processors to
transmit commands from the remote location and use vital relay
networks to check these commands. VSPs only make economic sense,
today, when controlling HUGE interlockings where they would
replace more than a few hundred relays.
I hope this explanation is educational, even if you disagree
with the practice.
One key to optimum operation, where load time can be described as a concave increasing
function of headway, is adhering to uniform headways. This requires making micro adjustments to
the dwell times at each station, an undertaking that is beyond the capabilities of a single person.
This is the type of load balancing control that has been used for elevators for more than two
decades. The point is to avoid merging conflicts that result in a 1 minute delay regardless of the
resolution algorithm.
One should reasonably expect any CTC system would have current information regarding
platform loading from the turnstyle counts or other sensors. It would then adjust dwell times at
each station to compensate for loading and headway deviations.
Oh my goodness, fantasy-land. Again, drawing analogies between
similar but different engineering problems. In elevator banks
the problem is to balance a number of parallel resources.
In the subway the resources are essentially serial. The only
practical "knobs" available are introducing delay (holding
lights or holding back signals) or modifying the introduction
of trains into the system. I can't imagine how an automated
system could reliably estimate platform loading. The turnstile
counts just tell you how many people entered the fare controls.
Which platform they went down or up to is up to them. Maybe
strain gauges could be installed in the platforms to measure
the waiting weight.
Of course, without train identification on the display the the tower operator is just as blind
We didn't establish that this ability does or does not exist in
the QBP master tower. Much earlier computer-based CTC installations,
such as the Metro North command center, have it.
The problem of maintaining obsolete equipment will only get worse as the technological useful life
shortens. The equipment purchased today will be far more difficult to replace in 10 years, than 10
year old equipment was 50 years ago.
On that: little argument. The only solace is that if the system
is designed primarily around software and protocols, the hardware
should be mostly transparent and can be replaced with a functional
equivalent down the road. In theory.
I fly all the time, and the only time I'm remotely nervous is when I'm flying on a LAN.
There are currently experiments with computer guided cars, using tiny on-board radars, and a guide in the pavement, etc. I can only hope they use the railroad standard for safety, rather than the Airbus one.
I can just see the posts in 20 years:
"I hate the Times Square Street-Vehicle Interlocking Tower! The operator always gives Broadway an extra minute even when they can see all of us poor motorists waiting on 7th ave!"
The other vision I have of the computer-controlled-traffic future, is intersections with no lights at all, and cars from intersecting streets "threading the needle" at 50mph.
I certainly appreciate your thoughtful statement. I do not agree with the thrust of your arguments, as you correctly surmised.
You have ascribed a reliability and an understanding to electromechanical devices and their networks that they do not possess. You are requiring additional degrees of reliability for alternative technologies that exceed that required for electromechanical devices and negate their economic advantage. I fear that your usually sound technical insight has become clouded by sales brochures from the dwindling number of electromechanical relay manufacturers and that arguments based on sound mathematical, scientific and engineering principles will not sway you.
However, I am obliged to take issue with some of the points you raised for the possible educational benefit of some of our readers.
They also have 100 years of engineering experience behind them. Every remotely likely failure mode is understood and techniques to reduce failures are well-known and standardized.
Relays have probably been around since Faraday. However, a rigorous understanding of how multiple relays behave in a network dates from Shannon's "A Symbolic Analysis of Relay and Switching Circuits" in 1940. Any "understanding and techniques to reduce failures..." prior to this date was based on based on experience and not science.
Shannon's paper was not limited to relays but all switching circuits. Relays were the only switching circuit available when it was written. However, electronic switching did develop within a decade of its publication. The period of time that relay networks might have had a monopoly for understanding was very short, especially considering the paucity of research in this field during WWII.
Shannon went on to another area and obsoleted a different generation of engineers in a completely different field :-)
For this reason, and you may think it overly conservative, the railway signaling industry trusts electromechanical relays over
microprocessor-controlled systems. The latter are divided into two groups: vital and non-vital controllers. A non-vital controller is nothing more than an off-the-shelf PLC or embedded computer.
I would classify three classes of devices that are used to replace electromechanical relays: solid state relays (SSR); Programmable Logic Controllers (PLC) and embedded controllers (EC).
SSR's are discrete devices that can replace individual relays. Many are completely pin compatible electrically. Most exhibit superior performance and reliability to electromechanical relays because they are hermetically sealed and incorporate free wheeling diods, snubbers or zero crossing detectors to eliminate high voltage transients. There should be no objection to their substitution because of the black box theorem.
PLC's are microcontrollers that are programmed to simulate relay networks. The microcontroller's sole program is developed by the manufacturer and is not changed by the user. The user provides the PLC with a description of the relay network to be simulated in the form of a ladder logic digram or its equivalent. In computer parlance the PLC is an interpreter. Input and output are provided by by the PLC, either through SSR or even electromechanical relays.
The PLC interpreter is extremely simple. It iterates through the rungs of the ladder logic diagram evaluating each rung in turn. It has an integral watchdog timer to guard against hardware/software failures. It is for all practical purposes identical to the ladder logic diagram it replaces. Both relay networks and the PLC start from the same ladder logic diagram. Both are limited by the same ladder logic diagram. There should be no additional reason to have a relay driven "vital controller" check on a PLC than have a PLC check on a relay network, when both are working from the same ladder logic diagram. They are the same animal.
The EC differs from the PLC in that the function is coded into the microcontroller's native language - usually through a compiler. The advantage is that the microcontroller is capable of more complexity than is possible with a PLC or a relay network.
Vital controllers, aka Vital Signal Processors, are required to have relay-equivalent reliability. This means that the software has to be rigidly checked from top to bottom and mathematically proven to be a correct implementation that can not produce an unsafe condition.
There is no way to mathematically prove that a finite state machine will perform correctly. Even worse, it is fairly easy to show that any general method that purports to do this is as elusive as perpetual motion. These results apply to all finte state machines - whether they be implemented by relay logic or stored programs. The ideas of what is and is not a computable function have been around since 1946, thanks to the works of Turing and Church. Just because the railway industry chooses to ignore these findings does not impart added inherent reliability to relay networks.
This is typically implemented with a voting system in which independent processing units must agree to turn on and off vital output lines.
The Halting Problem essentially means that the only way guarantee that a system will perform is through the use of a watchdogs or in the extreme case of military avionics multiple independent units performing the same function. It is not due to any inherent unreliability of EC's. It is simply that the relay logic has been given a grandfather's exemption.
Oh my goodness, fantasy-land.
Be careful - today's fantasy can become tomorrow's necessity.
Again, drawing analogies between similar but different engineering problems.
The math and the solution are the same; it is only the context that is different. The railroad industry must look to other industries because it has been so deficient in its own research. At the time I was in school the mathematics of statistical decision theory was less than 15 years old. The theory was developed independently by economists for the guns/butter problem and scientists for determining whether radar blips were enemy bombers or geese.
The only practical "knobs" available are introducing delay (holding
lights or holding back signals) or modifying the introduction of trains into the system.
Calculating the time to complete a run involves running time (including acceleration and braking) and dwell time. A nominal 5 seconds or so is added to the average necessary dwell time at each to provide a cushion. The question is whether this cushion is used productively for load balancing or expended cumulatively waiting at a merge point.
Dynamic demand driven introduction of trains into the system is a feature of personal people mover systems. Personnel problems make its use impractical for non-automated systems.
I can't imagine how an automated system could reliably estimate platform loading.
That's funny, I found such devices while browsing the APTA website. No, they do not use strain gauges.
We didn't establish that this ability [train identification] does or does not exist in the QBP master tower. Much earlier computer-based CTC installations, such as the Metro North command center, have it.
I assumed that it did not exist because you stated that they used PLC's. Storing textural information is fairly difficult for such systems. Of course, it would have been relatively easy to have this information with a PLC implementation had the TA maintained the Identra system on the Flushing Line.
I fear that your usually sound technical insight has become clouded by sales brochures
from the dwindling number of electromechanical relay manufacturers
ROTFL! In fact I don't believe such sales brochures still exist.
In the railway signal biz, the big players would love it if the
railroads would adopt vital signal processors or even more exotic
technologies quickly, as that generates "market growth". Still,
the thought of smooth-talking door-to-door relay salesmen gets
a chuckle.
I don't know what the profit margin is on signal relays, but it is
a pretty staid product. Not much has happened in the past 30 years
or so. Vital signal relays, furthermore, are much more expensive
that the sort of thing you can order from the Potter-Brumfield or
Omron catalog! That's because they are designed to fail safe.
This is something which, thus far, has eluded solid-state relays.
Solid state components are just as likely to fail energized as
de-energized in the presence of common threats such as voltage
surges, heavy RFI or excessive temperature.
SSRs and PLCs are certainly much more _reliable_ than electro-
mech systems, including vital signal systems, but that gets back
to the failure model. The relays will fail more often, but they
will fail in an unsafe state almost never. The old school of
railway signal thought is that it is much better to display a false
red signal 1000 times than to display a false green once.
The little ice-cube relays that most people are familiar with in
elevator control, HVAC, etc., are not up to the same signal standards.
As an interesting aside, though, the NYC elevator code requires
that certain critical safety circuits have metallic breaks (i.e.
relays and switches). A modern elevator controller is an embedded
PC and a whole lot of I/Os, and handful of relays to make sure the
thing doesn't move with a shaftway door open and doesn't overshoot
the top or bottom shaft limits.
Relays have probably been around since Faraday. However, a rigorous understanding of how
multiple relays behave in a network dates from Shannon's "A Symbolic Analysis of Relay and
Switching Circuits" in 1940. Any "understanding and techniques to reduce failures..." prior to this
date was based on based on experience and not science
And you point is? Like many other fields, first came the
empirical understanding, then the mathematical theory and
idealized models. The math tells you what the theoretical
limits and problems are, the engineering tells you which
formulas you forgot to consider after it blows up.
There should be no additional reason to have a relay
driven "vital controller" check on a PLC than have a PLC check on a relay network, when both
are working from the same ladder logic diagram. They are the same animal
There certainly is! This comes back to the issue of program
correctness (is the relay wiring right/is the ladder logic right)
vs correct execution of the program. The PLC is a little computer.
What happens when a DRAM bit gets twiddled by an alpha particle?
Parity? ECC? Maybe, if you're lucky. What about on-board the
CPU itself? Millions of transistors and wires. What happens if
one of them fails at the wrong moment? If you're lucky, the program
goes nuts and falls off the end of the watchdog timer. That's
why safety-critical applications need to have some sort of
redudancy at the output level, i.e. a voting system.
There is no way to mathematically prove that a finite state machine will perform correctly. Even
worse, it is fairly easy to show that any general method that purports to do this is as elusive as
perpetual motion.
I despise Turing machines. These are things that academic CS
types like to sit around and discuss, like monks of old debating
how many angels could fit on the head of a pin.
Yeah, yeah, the Halting Proof Problem. Not a problem in the Real
World. All it says is that for a General Case, a mathematical
proof that the machine either halts or never halts, given arbitrary
input, is non-computable. Is the
Turing machine a FSM? It seems to me it has infinite state.
In fact, a PLC (or a relay system, or any real computer program)
is a state machine. It is easy to predict its behavior.
Mathematical proofs of software correctness have been around
for a long time (1960s?), you just have to be a little specific
about what you are looking to prove. The Halting Problem is
irrelevant: does an embedded controller ever halt? It is
a continuous process.
That's funny, I found such devices while browsing the APTA website.
Yeah, I'm sure someone somewhere has something that sort of does
this. The big problem, I think, with taking the data from the
turnstile counts is you can't account for which platform the
passenger went to in those stations with common fare controls.
You also can't account for cross-platform transfers.
A nominal 5 seconds or so is added to the average necessary dwell time at each to
provide a cushion. The question is whether this cushion is used productively for load balancing or
expended cumulatively waiting at a merge point.
That's why it is a cushion! If you take away the cushion,
the slightest perturbance will throw the entire system into
disarray. Anyway, as long as there are humans running the
trains in NYCTS, making little 5-second adjustments in running
time just isn't going to happen.
I assumed that it did not exist because you stated that they used PLC's. Storing textural
information is fairly difficult for such systems. Of course, it would have been relatively easy to
have this information with a PLC implementation had the TA maintained the Identra system on
the Flushing Line.
If you came away with that impression I was deficient in my
explanation. PLC-like devices are used in the field to effect
control functions. Perhaps a better description, since they don't
perform decision logic as PLCs do, would be "remote I/O modules",
which are commanded by software running under some micro-sleaze
operating system. Certainly, conceptually, you could have the
train dispatchers sitting at these screens key in the train id
information as the trains enter their interlocking limits (just
as the individual tower operators now have to Os the train
on their gap sheet) and from there on the computer could keep
track of what the little blip means.
Identra was nice, but geez, those toilet seats were UGLY.
Today they could use a host of RF transponder technologies
and get the same effect, but probably NYCT is reluctant to
invest in that since the almighty CBTC will solve everything.
Speaking of CBTC, does anyone know how it will be implemented yet?
Thanks
Vital signal relays, furthermore, are much more expensive that the sort of thing you can order from the Potter-Brumfield or Omron catalog! That's because they are designed to fail safe. This is something which, thus far, has eluded solid-state relays. Solid state components are just as likely to fail energized as de-energized in the presence of common threats such as voltage surges, heavy RFI or excessive temperature.
SSRs and PLCs are certainly much more _reliable_ than electro-mech systems, including vital signal systems, but that gets back to the failure model. The relays will fail more often, but they will fail in an unsafe state almost never.
I did take a look at "vital relays" in the Union Switch & Signal catalog. They are very similar to items that appeared in the P&B, Guardian, et al catalogs 30 to 50 years ago. They do choose better materials and a more conservative design than ordinary signal relays. However, there is nothing technically different in their design or implementation that guarantees them "fail safe" where other relays do not.
Generally speaking, SSR's are around 1000 times more reliable than electromechanical relays. The number of operations per failure for a SSR is around 100M; that for electromechanical relays 100K.
The assertion is that electromechanical relay failures generally fail to energize and that the rate for failure to release is significantly less than that for SSR's.
Events of the last two years would tend to cast doubt on this assertion. A safety advisory by the FRA on 11 May 2000 recommends that all B1 relays manufactured by General Railway Signal between 1960 and 1985 (2 million in all) need an immediate retrofit because the relays exhibit a failure to de-energize in a timely manner under fairly benign operating conditions. This condition was brought to the FRA's attention because of the failures in the WMATA signal system in 1999.
I despise Turing machines. These are things that academic CS types like to sit around and discuss, like monks of old debating how many angels could fit on the head of a pin.
I fear you are letting your emotions get the better of you :-)
Yeah, yeah, the Halting Proof Problem. Not a problem in the Real World. All it says is that for a General Case, a mathematical proof that the machine either halts or never halts, given arbitrary input, is non-computable. Is the Turing machine a FSM? It seems to me it has infinite state.
In fact, a PLC (or a relay system, or any real computer program) is a state machine. It is easy to predict its behavior. Mathematical proofs of software correctness have been around for a long time (1960s?), you just have to be a little specific about what you are looking to prove. The Halting Problem is irrelevant: does an embedded controller ever halt? It is a continuous process.
I think I detect a misunderstanding in your rebuttal. Let me try to correct this.
1. (For completeness) A zero state machine (combinatorial logic) is one whose outputs will always respond the same way to its inputs. A simple example is a rocker switch (input) and light bulb (output). Pushing the rocker in one direction will light the bulb, pushing it in the other will extinguish it.
2. A state machine is one whose outputs will respond to its inputs in different ways depending on its internal state. A simple example is a chain switch and a light bulb. The same input (pulling and releasing the chain) will result in lighting the bulb or extinguishing the bulb depending on the internal state of the chain switch. There are two states in this machine. A finite state machine is usually described by a state table. The discrete inputs are usually represented by the columns and the internal states by the rows. Each entry in this table gives the next state for the machine and the output.
3. A finite state machine has a finite number of internal states. Computers are finite state machines. Despite their power there are some fairly simple problems that a finite state machine cannot solve. The classic problem is trying to build a machine that will recognize a pallindrome. Able was I ere I saw Elba. A man a plan a canal panama.
3a. It is possible to represent any state machine by a single number. The technique is called Goedel numbering.
4. An infinite state machine has an infinite number of internal states. This is an abstract concept, in that a truly infinite state machine does not physically exist. One simple implementation for an infinite state machine was proposed by Alan Turing. Take a finite state machine and add an infinite tape to it. The machine can read its input from the tape and according to its state table will overwrite the character, go to another state and move the tape to the left, right or halt (complete the computation).
4a. It is possible to design a state table for a Turing machine that will enable this Turing machine to simulate any finite state machine. The tape will have two items: the representation of the finite state machine to be simulated and the inputs for the finite state machine.
It is also possible to design a state table for a Turing machine that will enable this Turing machine to simulate any other Turing machine.
5. From 3, 3a, 4 and 4a it should be obvious that if it can be shown that it is impossible to do a calculation, operation, etc. on a Turing machine then it is equally impossible to do it on a finite state machine.
Why? Suppose it were impossible on a Turing machine but possible on a finite state machine. One would simply use the finte state machine simmulator Turing machine described in 4a with the finite state machine as one of the inputs. This leads to the obvious contradiction that such a Turing machine does not exist.
6. One defines whether or not a calculation or operation is computable by whether or not it can be calculated on a Turing machine. It is relatively easy to design a Turing machine that will recognize pallindromes.
7. Despite their power, there are operations, calculations, etc. that cannot be performed on a Turing machine - that is they are not computable. These calulations usually involve Turing machines themselves.
7a. Suppose we wish to design a Turing machine that will tell us whether or not any given Turing machine operates correctly. That's a tall order. If it were possible, this Turing machine would replace the entire QA department at Microsoft.
7b. One thing such a machine would have to do is determine, if the calculation reached a conclusion or got into an infinite loop. (To show relevance, one may substitute halt or reach the end of logic ladder iteration for reaching a conclusion. One may substitute an exception or blue screen of death for an infinite loop).
7c. One can demonstrate that presumed existence of such a Turing machine leads to contradictions when it is presented a representation of itself as the machine to analyze.
7d. Therefore it is not even possible to determine whether or not a Turing machine finish its operation let alone do it properly. By extension from item 5 these results are equally valid for finite state machines - of which PLC's and wired relay logic are examples.
(I hope this clarifies things a bit. I've had to summarize about 2 month's worth of course work into a few lines from a distance of about 35 years.)
The implication is that there is no valid way of proving that any finite state relay logic implementation works. The only foundation for 100 years of electromechanical relay network design methodology is that a particular design has not failed .. yet. Any stronger statement is electromechanical relay snake oil.
Regarding platform counts and dynamic adjustment of dwell time
The first question would be: do such adjustments help operations and by how much. The second question would be: how accurate does the input information have to be. The third question would be: how expensive would it cost to provide this information to the required accuracy.
My own observations and measurments lead me to believe that not regulating headways is a major cause of delays and overcrowding. My guess that it would be relatively inexpensive to provide conductors with some guidance. It would certainly be cheaper than increasing the number of trains.
...NYCT is reluctant to invest in that [Identra] since the almighty CBTC will solve everything.
The theoretical benefits for CBTC are fairly limited and quantifiable. CBTC can reduce headways by about 5 seconds due to the combined human and electromechanical, pneumatic reaction times.
The current block system was designed for 90 second headways. They currently run 130 second headways at best. There is a lot of room for improvement before reblocking the current system or CBTC becomes necessary.
It will be a decade before the time the "Canary Sea" system is in place and fully evaluated. The managers, whose spin has absolved them of present day problems for the future CBTC nirvana, will all be enjoying their retirement.
(Slightly off on a tangent)
Are there "hobbyist grade" PLC's out there?
However, there is
nothing technically different in their design or implementation that guarantees them "fail safe"
where other relays do not.
That is incorrect. In addition to better overall materials,
construction and quality control, there are two specific design
details that make signal relays vital: 1) The contact assemblies
drop away by gravity when power is removed. There is no reliance
on springs. 2) The front contacts (N/O) are constructed so that
in the event of an overcurrent or overvoltage across them, they
can not become welded shut.
Events of the last two years would tend to cast doubt on this assertion. A safety advisory by the
FRA on 11 May 2000 recommends that all B1 relays manufactured by General Railway Signal
between 1960 and 1985 (2 million in all) need an immediate retrofit because the relays exhibit a
failure to de-energize in a timely manner under fairly benign operating conditions. This condition
was brought to the FRA's attention because of the failures in the WMATA signal system in 1999.
AFAIK this failure was due to incorrect overhaul of the relays
by a specific outside contractor. Admittedly SSRs do not require
any periodic maintenance other than to replace their
smoldering remains after a lightning hit.
7d. Therefore it is not even possible to determine whether or not a Turing machine finish its
operation let alone do it properly. By extension from item 5 these results are equally valid for finite
state machines - of which PLC's and wired relay logic are examples.
You are falling into a fundamental flawed logic trap. Agreed,
a Turing machine can not compute whether a Turing machine halts,
i.e. (unless you believe that there are other models of computation
which are stronger than Turing) the halting proof of a Turing
machine is non-computable. However, a Turing machine is more
general than a FSM. That fact that you can't show halting on
a Turing machine does not imply that you can't show halting on
a more limited machine, i.e. a FSM.
In fact, you can prove halting for an FSM. If you can't, then a
whole lot of computer scientists have had a severe case of
rectal-cranial inversion for the past 30 years with mathematical
proofs of software correctness (which include halting).
The theoretical benefits for CBTC are fairly limited and quantifiable. CBTC can reduce headways
by about 5 seconds due to the combined human and electromechanical, pneumatic reaction times.
CBTC should be able to yield much more improvement than 5 seconds.
Of course, as with any new field, we won't know how safe it is
until after the first good wreck.
AFAIK this failure was due to incorrect overhaul of the relays by a specific outside contractor.
Why don't you read the recall before passing judgment. So far as I can infer it was due to a bad choice of materials by the manufacturer. This was no doubt exacerbated by not applying a sufficient release force to overcome the corrosion or residual magnetic effects.
Admittedly SSRs do not require any periodic maintenance other than to replace their smoldering remains after a lightning hit.
There are techniques to protect electronic equipment from an electrostatic discharge (ESD), if it is absolutely necessary. They are not particularly expensive.
You are falling into a fundamental flawed logic trap. Agreed, a Turing machine can not compute whether a Turing machine halts, i.e. (unless you believe that there are other models of computation which are stronger than Turing) the halting proof of a Turing machine is non-computable. However, a Turing machine is more general than a FSM. That fact that you can't show halting on a Turing machine does not imply that you can't show halting on a more limited machine, i.e. a FSM.
In fact, you can prove halting for an FSM.
What kind of machine determines whether or not a FSM completes its operation, another FSM or a Turing machine? If it is an FSM then a variation of the pallindrome proof will suffice to show it won't work. If it is a TM then it would have to also have to work on a TM that is simulating the FSM. This leads to another contradiction. No, there is no general method to show that a FSM completes an operation.
If you can't, then a whole lot of computer scientists have had a severe case of rectal-cranial inversion for the past 30 years with mathematical proofs of software correctness (which include halting).
I was puzzled by the purported existence of such proofs in your last post. I would appreciate some citation that I could peruse.
The halting theorem is essentially a corollary of Goedel's theorem which states that you can't prove that a system of logic is both complete and correct. One can sacrifice completeness for correctness at one's peril.
CBTC should be able to yield much more improvement than 5 seconds. Of course, as with any new field, we won't know how safe it is until after the first good wreck.
I don't think that CBTC's most fervent supporters would argue that a pure moving block system is practicable. Lead trains do stop dead, so the minimum separation must provide a sufficient buffer based on stopping distance. That distance is 750 feet for NYCT. It could be reduced with better brakes. If one includes this safety margin then much of CBTC's theoretical increased capacity evaporates. The good news is that such additional capacity is not yet required. The existing system is running at levels that are significantly below its capacity and past operating levels.
I was puzzled by the purported existence of such proofs in your last post. I would appreciate some
citation that I could peruse.
There is a good introduction in Jon Bentley's Programming
Pearls and More Programming Pearls (not to be
confused with Programming Perl from OReilly). Unfortunately
I can't locate my copies to tell you which chapters. The books
are reprints of ACM newsletter articles. I've also seen good
discussions of this in several software engineering textbooks.
The halting theorem is essentially a corollary of Goedel's theorem which states that you can't
prove that a system of logic is both complete and correct. One can sacrifice completeness for
correctness at one's peril.
I fear that this discussion is turning increasingly philosophical
and further removed from the subject of QBP master tower.
All of your arguments boil down to a regurgitation of the same
error in reasoning: If theorem B is a more general version of
theorem A, then proving B proves A. However, the failure to prove
B, or even an outright disproof of B, does not impeach A. You
keep saying, in various forms, that it does.
Specifically, you are saying that it is impossible to prove the
correct operation of a finite state machine, of which computer
programs and relay logic are both examples. I'm saying that while
it may not be possible to analyze an arbitrary FSM, it is certainly
possible to analyze a large class of FSMs and state whether they
do or do not work properly..
There are of course classes of FSM that can't be analyzed, that lead
to paradox, for example any machine incorporating a race condition.
When designing safety-critical systems, one avoids those designs.
In part summary, then, both relay networks and computer programs
that effectively simulate them can be designed such that their
correct operation can be assured formally. This is only half of
the battle though. That a mathematical idealized design model
is correct doesn't mean much unless a physical representation
can be constructed. In this regard, there is no such thing
as a perfectly reliable or safe system. There will always remain
some possibility of unsafe operation.
I find it distressing that you effectively repudiate the value
of having a long engineering history with a particular solution.
The many years of relay-based signal experience greatly bolsters
the statistical confidence that we understand them and the various
failure modes and probabilities.
The fundamental engineering problem with solid state control devices
is failure mode. Think about how you would design an output
stage and confidently say that it can never falsely energize the
load. It isn't easy, and the general opinion in the signal world
has been that there isn't a design that currently achieves the
same low probability of false energization that a vital signal
relay does.
As for the specific case of the GRS plug-in relays, read the
advisory carefully and read between the lines. Let's just say
"there's more to the story". All safety-critical systems are
vulnerable to improper design or improper maintenance.
I don't think that CBTC's most fervent supporters would argue that a pure moving block system is
practicable. Lead trains do stop dead, so the minimum separation must provide a sufficient buffer
based on stopping distance. That distance is 750 feet for NYCT. It could be reduced with better
brakes. If one includes this safety margin then much of CBTC's theoretical increased capacity
evaporates. The good news is that such additional capacity is not yet required. The existing
system is running at levels that are significantly below its capacity and past operating levels.
That's been a recurring theme in your posts, that the system had
better capacity in the past. Other than the cable railway on
the BB (thanks for the offline hyperlink on that, btw), what
specifically do you think NYCT isn't doing now that it was then
which has resulted in a loss of tph?
The theory of CBTC is that all of the objects are in constant
communication. 750' might be the safe margin if the following
train is moving at maximum speed, but CBTC would allow the
block to be closed up at slower speed. A lot of people believe
that the jury is still out on whether a CBTC system can be
designed that will be as safe as traditional systems.
I'm saying that while it may not be possible to analyze an arbitrary FSM, it is certainly possible to analyze a large class of FSMs and state whether they do or do not work properly..
How can you guarantee that the FSM that is being analyzed is a member of the class that can be analyzed? It is fairly easy to design an FSM that will mimic any given FSM for n operations and differ on operation n+1.
There are of course classes of FSM that can't be analyzed, that lead to paradox, for example any machine incorporating a race condition. When designing safety-critical systems, one avoids those designs.
The techniques for eliminating static and dynamic race conditions date from the mid 1950's - about 15 years after Shannon's article appeared. Such general algorithms would not have been possible prior to this work.
I find it distressing that you effectively repudiate the value of having a long engineering history with a particular solution. The many years of relay-based signal experience greatly bolsters the statistical confidence that we understand them and the various failure modes and probabilities.
I have a very high regard for old solutions. I also appreciate the tools that their designers and engineers had to work with. In most cases these designers and engineers arrived at near optimum solutions based on the materials and mathematical understanding that was available at that time. However, different circumstances lead to different solutions.
The value of experience also requires analysis. Any argument based solely on statistical inference falls short. The fraction of the number of operations performed to the number of possible operations is infinitessmal. One would hope that some basic physical or mathematical law could be used to bolster such poor odds.
The fundamental engineering problem with solid state control devices is failure mode. Think about how you would design an output stage and confidently say that it can never falsely energize the load.
Solid state control has been sucessfully replaced for relay logic in almost every application. Railroad signalling is the best known holdout. Many applications using solid state control have as much potential damage for failure as does railroading.
A fairly simple mechanism is used for not falsely energising the mode is used in factory floor automation. The (electric) rails for output voltages pass through a master control relay (MCR). This relay is actuated by a separate sanity checker, usually just the watchdog timer, as well as the emergency stop. A single detected failure results in guaranteeing that the system goes into a safe state.
This will guarantee that a safe state can be achieved. It is usually sufficient. However, all outputs can be monitored by the same solid state control for sanity at a modest increase in cost.
The practice in the avionics of having multiple independent controllers actuate each output serves an additional purpose. That purpose is to guarantee continued operation, not return the system to a safe non-operational state. Redundancy is required for such environments. I don't think such failure modes are required for NYCT operation. They certainly have not required them until now.
Yes, the factory floor fail safe operation does require a single relay. The MCR is usually the least reliable component. However, replacing it is far less burdensome than 10,000+ relay replacement program that WMATA is undergoing.
The theory of CBTC is that all of the objects are in constant communication. 750' might be the safe margin if the following train is moving at maximum speed, but CBTC would allow the block to be closed up at slower speed.
This is already implemented, where it is most likely required, at station approaches. Block sizes are reduced to 100 feet, according to the chain reading. It does not address the general problem but it does handle a significant fraction.
That's been a recurring theme in your posts, that the system had better capacity in the past...what specifically do you think NYCT isn't doing now that it was then which has resulted in a loss of tph?
Let me state my view more precisely. The system currently has unused capacity that is not being utilised. I have used previous service levels as proof for this assertion. They have also reduced some capacity, such as elimination of terminal facilities, but this has been minor to compared to not using what they have.
The rather obvious answer is that they are not running a sufficient number of trains. The primary reason is that they do not have sufficient number of operational rail cars at any given time. This has been exacerbated by some false economies in their maintenance practices - namely linked cars.
It can be argued that reducing the load level may be too expensive. The "solutions" proposed by NYCT, such as the 2nd Ave Subway and curve elimnation at Union Square, are far more expensive. They appear more to me to be more of straw men to assuage public outrage than of being serious proposals.
If they are determined to keep the load levels high, then far more attention must be paid to operational details than is currently practiced. Train supervision usually does not have sufficient information to provide such attention and control. This is as a result of the existing signal system. When NYCT invests in new signaling equpment, like the Queensboro Plaza Master Tower, such deficiencies can be remedied. They haven't.
The techniques for eliminating static and dynamic race conditions date from the mid 1950's -
about 15 years after Shannon's article appeared. Such general algorithms would not have been
possible prior to this work
Yup, general algorithms were not formalized, but mostly what
Shannon's work did was lend a bit of legitimacy to practices that
were already heuristically understood.
I would have to guess that you've never actually studied the
principles and practices of railway signaling, otherwise you'd
know that, for the most part, it's not rocket science. Systems
tend not to have a lot of hidden state. Relays that represent
hidden state are quaintly called "stick" relays in signal nomenclature. There aren't that many of them, most of the most
critical stuff is static logic, and where there are stick relays,
they generally aren't compounded to create binary counters,
word latches, or any of the other structures that make digital
logic design interesting.
The (electric) rails for output voltages pass through a master control relay (MCR).
This relay is actuated by a separate sanity checker, usually just the watchdog timer, as well as the
emergency stop. A single detected failure results in guaranteeing that the system goes into a safe
state.
This will guarantee that a safe state can be achieved. It is usually sufficient. However, all outputs
can be monitored by the same solid state control for sanity at a modest increase in cost.
Hey, congratulations! After arguing in a circle you have now
described a Vital Signal Processor. Go back a few posts where
I first described how this works and you said it wasn't necessary.
However, replacing it is far less burdensome than 10,000+ relay replacement
program that WMATA is undergoing.
Ultimately vital microprocessor systems will replace all instances
of relay logic. Right now, one is paying the up-front R&D costs
of these systems which means they aren't always cost-effective,
especially when the railroad in question already has an infrastructure
for maintaining conventional systems, vs having to train personnel
on equipment that one maintains with a computer and RS232 cable
rather than a Simpson meter.
As for that specific incident with the GRS relays, let's just
say sometimes it is easier to just change everything than
to figure out what really went wrong and possibly uncover
an embarrassing error.
The value of experience also requires analysis. Any argument based solely on statistical inference
falls short. The fraction of the number of operations performed to the number of possible
operations is infinitessmal. One would hope that some basic physical or mathematical law could be
used to bolster such poor odds
Well, I could turn that around and say that the laws of nature
are simply generalizations that we infer from repeated experience.
But I won't, because that has very little to do with railway signals.
How can you guarantee that the FSM that is being analyzed is a member of the class that can be
analyzed? It is fairly easy to design an FSM that will mimic any given FSM for n operations and
differ on operation n+1.
So to carry this to conclusion, it is impossible to prove the
correctness of any FSM or any computer program. In that case, why
bother with the laws of mathematics and science. Why not simply
worship to the idols that represent the gods of technology and
hope that they smile upon your design?
Do you really think that you can't, for practical purposes,
assure the operation of these systems? You just have to make
some common-sense assumptions. If I have a 3-way (low/med/high)
light switch with a pull chain, I can make the statement that
high always follows medium, so long as I consider the pure
mathematical idealization of the system and exclude such things
as one of the lamp filaments burning out or some mechanical
defect in the switch.
This is already implemented, where it is most likely required, at station approaches. Block sizes
are reduced to 100 feet, according to the chain reading. It does not address the general problem
but it does handle a significant fraction.
Yes, station time clearing is a good but primitive moving block
system. That handles the full-length block immediately to the
rear of the station. However, while a train is in the station
timing block, the train behind is still being held back at least
one full-length block. That train could be utilizing track space
by coming up at reduced speed, ditto for the train behind that, etc.
Of course, none of this requires CBTC. This is all stuff that
has existed for years using ASC and conventional signal tech.
The big claimed advantage of CBTC is the elimination, or rather
the consolidation of track circuits.
The rather obvious answer is that they are not running a sufficient number of trains. The primary
reason is that they do not have sufficient number of operational rail cars at any given time. This
has been exacerbated by some false economies in their maintenance practices - namely linked
cars.
Although I agree re the linked car set issue, it would be interesting
to see a formal analysis of what quantitative impact that has
had on availability and service levels. Another recent factor
in the car shortage issue has been the great fleet slowdown.
When NYCT invests in new signaling equpment, like the Queensboro Plaza Master Tower, such
deficiencies can be remedied. They haven't.
What specifically? You mean experimenting with this idea of
measuring platform loading?
Yup, general algorithms were not formalized [elimination of race conditions], but mostly what Shannon's work did was lend a bit of legitimacy to practices that were already heuristically understood.
That work was done by Huffman and others. Shannon's insight was a more general and profound. Today it may seem obvious that relay and other switching networks can be described by Boolean algebra. However, this fundamental relation was not known or even imagined until Shannon's master's thesis was published in 1940.
I often wonder how Shannon's predecessors went about designing relay networks. Shannon's work certainly had an immediate effect on the design, testing and retrofiting of telephone switching systems.
As for that specific incident with the GRS relays, let's just say sometimes it is easier to just change everything than to figure out what really went wrong and possibly uncover an embarrassing error.
The description of the WMATA failures suggests race conditions that may have been exacerbated by slowly de-energizing relays. However, I would have assumed that "vital" systems would have required a double failure to cause a problem. Did GRS use only heuristic methods to analyze their design or did they employ some of the limited-scope analysis tools to miss a potential problem. If as you and I both believe that there was another underlying error, then simply changing the relays will not solve the problem.
Well, I could turn that around and say that the laws of nature are simply generalizations that we infer from repeated experience. But I won't, because that has very little to do with railway signals.
Are you suggesting that railway signals are subject to a different set of laws? I am assuming that all switching systems are subject to the same set of laws regardless of their operational context. Please enlighten me as to which natural laws don't apply to railway signals? :-)
However, while a train is in the station timing block, the train behind is still being held back at least one full-length block. That train could be utilizing track space by coming up at reduced speed, ditto for the train behind that, etc.
One can to simulate 90 second headways on a simple spreadsheet using actual station distances and running characteristics. One would find that the only place were 750 foot distance between trains are approached is at the station entrance. The current station time clearing takes care of this situation quite adequately. CBTC's more general form of a moving block system would become useful for shorter headways.
The big claimed advantage of CBTC is the elimination, or rather the consolidation of track circuits.
I would assume that a fairly persuasive argument could be made for CBTC's cost effectiveness for a new system. However, justifying CBTC's cost for a gut rehab of an existing signal system is another matter.
Another recent factor in the car shortage issue has been the great fleet slowdown.
Thanks for reminding me. Mr. Train Dude stated that the slowdown required a 10% increase in the number of trains assigned to the "F".
If NYCT is determined to run crowded trains, there are several operational details they are neglecting. Keeping uniform headways is more important because of the nature of passenger loading in crowded situations.
One would expect that trains leave at 120 second intervals (for 30 tph) and not earlier. At present, the conductor will usually close the doors, when he senses no platform movement and that there is no red signal ahead. That signal will usually turn green within 60 seconds so it is no use for holding the train to its scheduled departure. What is needed is an automatic dispatcher at each station that uses the current schedule and the previous train's departure time as inputs.
This will probably result in doors being held open longer. There is uneven station demand. A more optimum solution would be to adjust these cushions in proportion to platform loading.
One would hope that schedules are designed by starting at the merge points and working backward. An informative display in a master tower can help overcome such planning deficiencies. Suppose a local and express are vying for entry into the new 63rd St tunnel. When is the tower going to know? It is too late to avoid a conflict if the tower does not get this information until one of the trains is at 36th St.
Sorry for the delay in responding to this volley in the ongoing
tennis match (no other subtalkers seem to have much to say on this),
but I was busy wiring up circuits employing, can you guess....
signal relays.
Today it may seem obvious that relay and other switching networks can be described by Boolean
algebra. However, this fundamental relation was not known or even imagined until Shannon's
master's thesis was published in 1940.
I often wonder how Shannon's predecessors went about designing relay networks. Shannon's
work certainly had an immediate effect on the design, testing and retrofiting of telephone
switching systems.
I can't say much about telephone switching in the 1940s. I think
crossbar was out by then. As for signal design, a primitive form
of boolean logic is the locking matrix of signal tower levers.
You can think of it as a sort of Karnaugh map, and general methods
for optimizing for the least number of locking dogs were known
at around the turn of the century.
The description of the WMATA failures suggests race conditions that may have been
exacerbated by slowly de-energizing relays. However, I would have assumed that "vital"
systems would have required a double failure to cause a problem. Did GRS use only heuristic
methods to analyze their design or did they employ some of the limited-scope analysis tools to
miss a potential problem. If as you and I both believe that there was another underlying error, then
simply changing the relays will not solve the problem.
I'm not sure which specific relays were involved and in what
parts of the circuit. I also don't know if GRS, WMATA or a
third-party contractor was the actual circuit designer. From
what I've heard of the failures the delayed release caused a
permissive indication to be briefy given where a stop should
haave been shown. This is essentially a static logic function
and there is no race condition.
But, you've been arguing that there is no method to prove correct
operation of any FSM, so what should the designers have done?
One can to simulate 90 second headways on a simple spreadsheet using actual station distances
and running characteristics. One would find that the only place were 750 foot distance between
trains are approached is at the station entrance. The current station time clearing takes care of
this situation quite adequately
I'll trust your spreadsheet calculations. However, consider the
case where there is a perturbation in the schedule such that
additional trains back up beyond the station time zone. Presently
under the fixed-block system that causes following trains to stop
whereas under moving block they could close in.
I would assume that a fairly persuasive argument could be made for CBTC's cost effectiveness
for a new system. However, justifying CBTC's cost for a gut rehab of an existing signal system is
another matter.
At this point, the existing signal system is so old that anything
which is done will effectively be a completely new installation.
There simply isn't enough room in the existing signal housings
and cables to add major features such as ASC.
At present,
the conductor will usually close the doors, when he senses no platform movement and that there is
no red signal ahead.
Making micro-schedule adjustments via station holds is tough because
as the train gets more loading, it will continue to lose time
at each station stop. The ideal solution is to have each
train adjust its running time between stations. However I doubt
any of these methods will come to pass.
Suppose a local and express are vying for entry into the new 63rd St tunnel. When is
the tower going to know? It is too late to avoid a conflict if the tower does not get this information
until one of the trains is at 36th St.
In this particular example QBP master tower should pick up indication
on D3 track at Roosevelt .
I can't say much about telephone switching in the 1940s. I think crossbar was out by then.
Actually the crossbar was patented by Ericsson in the 1930's. Bell did not use it until the 1950's because they did not to pay Ericsson royalties. They came up with something called the panel. But that's another story.
While crossbar's were used the bulk of many mundane tasks was handled by simple relays. The design of these networks was revolutionized by Shannon's work.
As for signal design, a primitive form of boolean logic is the locking matrix of signal tower levers. You can think of it as a sort of Karnaugh map, Karnaugh maps came along in 1950 and general methods for optimizing for the least number of locking dogs were known
at around the turn of the century.
Minimizing the number of logical elements increases potential switching hazards due to race conditions. This relation was firmly established in the late 1950's.
From what I've heard of the [WMATA] failures the delayed release caused a permissive indication to be briefy given where a stop should haave been shown. This is essentially a static logic function and There is no race condition.
There can certainly be a race condition for static logic. All you need are 3 or more inputs and an implementation that does not take into account that different logic elements have different turn on and turn off times. I think we are agreed on the cause of WMATA's problem just not the terminology.
But, you've been arguing that there is no method to prove correct operation of any FSM, so what should the designers have done?
That is correct and you have been arguing that there are "special techniques for vital signal relay design". I shall restate that there is no general method to determine the correctness of a FSM design, whether it be hard wired logic implemented by relays, vital relays, solid state relays or integrated circuits or whether it be programmable logic implemented with PLC's or EC's.
Their operational life built on the same quicksand design foundation. The question is what distinguishes hard wired vital relay networks over these other technoligies: higher initial cost; higher maintenance cost; lesser reliablilty and lesser capability.
However, consider the case where there is a perturbation in the schedule such that additional trains back up beyond the station time zone. Presently under the fixed-block system that causes following trains to stop whereas under moving block they could close in.
Your point is valid. The question is one of relevance. How often is it likely to occur and are there other remedies? I would think that it might be better to have trains wait at stations than to wait between them should "catastrophic" delays occur.
Making micro-schedule adjustments via station holds is tough because as the train gets more loading, it will continue to lose time
at each station stop.
Suppose the schedule permits an average of 25 seconds loading time, when only 15 seconds is actually required on average for loading. Suppose further that of 3 succesive stations A, B, C have relative platform loads of 1.0, 1.5, 0.75, respectively. How should one apportion the dwell times?
The ideal solution is to have each train adjust its running time between stations.
I think we have a different perspective. I believe that the fundamental goal for transit is to get people from point A to point B. I do not view loading time as wasted time. I do however view the time interval between stations as an unproductive but necessary time interval for achieving this fundamental goal. Accordingly, if I had a choice as to where to spend some time it would be in a station rather than between them.
In this particular example QBP master tower should pick up indication on D3 track at Roosevelt .
That is certainly logical. I have not heard of any punch board being placed in Roosevelt Ave thus far from the posts. The only punch boards appear to be in 36th St and on the express track just before the switch. Of course, if the new Master Tower at Queensboro Plaza had no mechanism for remembering and displaying the indication from Roosevelt Ave then the point is moot. As I said about a week ago, without such capability this tower is a colossal waste of money.
Verrrrrrry interesting. Now, for an encore, perhaps you would like to debate the causes of "bunching" by (pardon my language) buses, mathematical formulae for describing the same, and the application of advanced technologies to the elimination of this phenomenon.
Someone did a very elaborate study years ago of traffic flow through the Lincoln tunnel and published it in Scientific American. They determined maximum flow occurred when a particular number (42?) of cars per minute entered the tunnel. More than that number entering per minute would cause congestion and reduce the number exiting the other end per minute.
I imagine that there is a similar effect on a rail line from running tains at less than a certain headway.
ditto KMA, you guys both rock. I learned a lot from reading this thread.
I'ts nice to see stuff like this on SubTalk, and not a bunch of petty personal attacks
Dave
Minimizing the number of logical elements increases potential switching hazards due to race
conditions. This relation was firmly established in the late 1950's.
Or put another way, you sometimes have to add redundant gates
to fix race conditions. But the concept of a race condition in
a mechanical locking bed is a bit of a stretch...see below.
There can certainly be a race condition for static logic. All you need are 3 or more inputs and an
implementation that does not take into account that different logic elements have different turn on
and turn off times. I think we are agreed on the cause of WMATA's problem just not the terminology.
Sorry, _very_ sloppy terminology usage on _my_ part. Of course
you are right, a race condition can exist in static logic.
In fact, timing dependencies are used all the time in signal work
as relays can be made slow in picking up, releasing or both by
playing with the magnetic circuit, or by using capacitors, resistors
or rectifiers across the coils. The former technique is specified
whenever the failure to release slowly could result in an unsafe
output. This is a pretty rare design...one possible example is
certain types of coded track circuits (but not the type used in WMATA)
In fact the "output" of static relay logic circuits in signal work
exhibits race condition behavior frequently, but it always errs
on the side of safety. Example: when a subway signal clears
from yellow to green, it momentarily goes dark, but this aspect
is equivalent (by rulebook) to red.
There are additional hidden timing dependencies that exist
outside of the relay networks per se, but fall within the system
scope. These are the time constraints imposed by stopping distances
and the distances between signals. In this regard, the failure
of a normal-acting relay to drop away within a reasonable amount
of time could create a momentary unsafe signal clearing which
might, if the relay dropaway is very, very long (many seconds)
endanger train movements. This would generally be more prone
to happen in following movements than in head-on movements, as
in the latter case the relays controlling the opposing signals
are checked to be at stop before the signal can clear.
I shall restate that there is no general method to determine the correctness of a FSM
design, whether it be hard wired logic implemented by relays, vital relays, solid state relays or
integrated circuits or whether it be programmable logic implemented with PLC's or EC's.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I never
intended to argue that there was any difference between idealized
relay and software networks. I still believe that it is possible
to design a logic system which can be formally certified to correctly
implement a set of rules. However, any physical implementation of
anything is vulnerable to failing to execute its "program"
correctly, and as I've explained at length in prior postings,
the engineering practicalities of controlling this unreliability
and making it err to the safe side mean that a simple PLC or
embedded PC is not adequate to meet the same safety standards
as traditional relay-based signaling. These devices can be made
adequate (and even superior) to relays with augmentation, namely:
1) Rigorous analysis of the controlling software. 2) A
technique to guard against errant operation of the CPU or
corruption of data (a redundant system with voting is used)
3) Careful design of the driver electronics to minimize the
chance of stuck-at-one faults 4) Continuous checking of the
outputs for correspondence with commanded values to check for
blown drivers 5) One or more "master control" relays to provide
a metallic break in the output circuits should a driver fail
or a system insanity be detected.
I would think that it might be better to have trains wait at stations than to wait
between them should "catastrophic" delays occur.
That's certainly true for long delays such as BIEs, 12-9s,
sick passenger, etc. But we were talking mostly about optimizing
for small delays, meaning mostly door holding or door failures.
The problem is there isn't much window for getting all trains
stuck behind the trouble train to hold in stations, especially
for express trackage.
I'm an advocate of using radical reroutes as soon as a delay hits
which is likely to be a long one. Do anything to keep trains
moving even in a limited way, reverse moves, whatever. Unfortunately
that requires that personnel in the field have a lot of
knowledge of the Physical Characteristics of the railway and
some idea of what they can do in a problem situation before
it actually arises. This is pretty much opposite the current
trend in dispatching in NYCT, which is to just let everything sit
and hope the rush hour ends soon.
Suppose the schedule permits an average of 25 seconds loading time, when only 15 seconds is
actually required on average for loading. Suppose further that of 3 succesive stations A, B, C have
relative platform loads of 1.0, 1.5, 0.75, respectively. How should one apportion the dwell times?
That's a function of the train loading, the current spacing between
trains, and the expected arrival rate at these platforms.
It's a complicated dynamic scheduling problem. One factor
that you seem to be overlooking, though, is that as the load factor
of a train increases, its ability to load and unload passengers
decreases. That ability is also negatively impacted by increased
platform loading.
It is for this reason that I think adjusting inter-station transit
times can be a global optimization, even if it slightly degrades
the performance as seen by a local subset of the population.
That is certainly logical. I have not heard of any punch board being placed in Roosevelt Ave thus far from the posts
Neither have I and that's a little disturbing. When the contracts
were being let a major portion was the installation of new
indication lines all the way north to Roosevelt Ave, for the
purpose of installing a route request box on the express track.
I watched them pull the cables. Next time I'm at Roosevelt s/b
I'll try to remember to look for the punch boxes.
In fact, timing dependencies are used all the time in signal work as relays can be made slow in picking up, releasing or both by playing with the magnetic circuit, or by using capacitors, resistors or rectifiers across the coils. The former technique is specified whenever the failure to release slowly could result in an unsafe output.
Both of these techniques have serious faults as to reliablilty or repeatibility. Physically changing the relay geometry or bending the relay contacts is a time honored hack. However, such remedies are extremely hard to document and repeat. If such a hack is necessary to make a network function properly, then there will be problems when it is necessary to make a field replacement for that relay. There is also the question of the manufacturer's liability, once the user has tampered with it in this manner. There are limit screws for very narrow adjustments provided by the manufacturer.
Charging a capacitor to extend or retard the energizing a relay has some practical risks. The digital circuit's noise immunity is compromised, capacitors age quickly, have high tolerance and poor thermal drift.
I would expect nothing less than using "time delay relays" to ensure proper delays when such delays are required. Such delays use either synchronous motors or more recently properly designed electronic circuits for accuracy, repeatibility and reliablilty.
These devices can be made adequate (and even superior) to relays with augmentation, namely: 1) Rigorous analysis of the controlling software.
This should be employed any system not just computer software.
2) A technique to guard against errant operation of the CPU or corruption of data (a redundant system with voting is used)
Your are confusing safety with availability. A watchdog timer is all that is necessary for safety. Redundant systems will insure continued operation in the event that one or more components fail. I have no qualms about using redundant systems for avionics because there is no safe state. I do object to requiring such added capabilities to electronic systems, when they are not required of relay networks.
3) Careful design of the driver electronics to minimize the chance of stuck-at-one faults
There is no substitute for good designs. That I suppose is what "vital" relays are supposed to provide. One would also suppose that elements are used within the manufacturer's specifications.
4) Continuous checking of the outputs for correspondence with commanded values to check for blown drivers
This should also apply to relay circuits.
5) One or more "master control" relays to provide a metallic break in the output circuits should a driver fail or a system insanity be detected.
The MCR is usually connected directly to the emergency switch on the factory floor.
One factor that you seem to be overlooking, though, is that as the load factor of a train increases, its ability to load and unload passengers decreases.
I don't think I have. I've stated that it is a concave increasing function. It is also a concave increasing function of the number of people crossing the door threshold. To the extent passenger arrival times are uniform over the range of headways, then a similar relation can be deduced.
That's a function of the train loading, the current spacing between trains, and the expected arrival rate at these platforms. It's a complicated dynamic scheduling problem.
The exact same problem that has been encountered in many different fields and solved. The mathematics and solution are the same whether the context is "guns or butter in economics" or allocating broadcast power in a diversity communications system. The solution is equalize. The optimum solution for the simple example that I gave is: 23, 35, 17 seconds respectively for the 3 stations. This will guarantee that are equal numbers of people boarding/leaving at each station. The situation gets a little more complicated, if one has to consider train loading - but only slightly more complicated. The point is that dwell times should be better controlled than they currently are.
I'm an advocate of using radical reroutes as soon as a delay hits which is likely to be a long one. Do anything to keep trains moving even in a limited way, reverse moves, whatever. Unfortunately that requires that personnel in the field have a lot of knowledge of the Physical Characteristics of the railway and some idea of what they can do in a problem situation before it actually arises.
That's child's play for a computer system. Too bad NYCT did not provide the simple interfaces necessary to hand off to a computer, when they decided to build the new Master Tower at Queensboro Plaza.
Next time I'm at Roosevelt s/b I'll try to remember to look for the punch boxes.
There's another problem the FIFO tyranny. Consider the following hypothetical, but realistic scenerio, for Queens bound traffic. An "E" just looses its race with a "V" at 5th Avenue and experiences its first 1 minute delay. The "V" looses its race at Queens Plaza with an "R" and experiences a 1 minute delay and delays the same following "E" an additional minute. The "E" then looses its race with an "F" at 36th St and is delayed yet again. That's a total delay of 4 delays: 3 on the "E" and 1 on the "V". Had the original decision at 5th Ave been to let the "E" go first, then there would have been only a single delay on the "V". The tower had all the information necessary to make this decision.
Optimum merges require more information that who gets to the intersection first. NYCT's automatic arbitration procedure reminds me of the traffic law in Massachussets: When two cars approach an intersection at the same time, the car entering the intersection first has the right of way. The Commonwealth could never understand why they had som many fender benders. There's got to be a better way and the tools for implementing it are currently available.
And isn't that precisely what sets QBP tower apart? Aren't those WIntel machines supposed to eventually interface with the CBTC stuff?
It's good to hear that relay logic is still and will be the bottom line.
Jeff, based on what you wrote, I'm guessing that there are solid state code-pulse decoders at all of the "automated" interlocking plants, like the US&S Genisys or Micro-lock, and they drive the vital relay plants as if they were towermen? Am I close?
Yes, Genisys is a non-vital controller. Whether it uses
the traditional pulse code modulation of the 1940s-era
CTC or uses a more modern modulation or digital protocol on
the line, I'm not sure. The outputs drive home relays or switch
control relays, but all of the interlocking is done in relay
logic. With a tower-controlled interlocking, a good deal of
the locking logic is back in the tower, either through mechanical
locking of unit levers, or through relay check networks in
the back room of the tower.
>>You need 24 frames per second to avoid flicker<<
If you're talking motion picture frames, remember that projectors use double bladed (or double speed) shutters, for a 48 Hz flash rate. Also the general cutoff for lack of _perceptible_ flicker in projection is 30fps, 60Hz flash.
Thats why TV is 59.94 fields per second. (And lets not get started on the missing 0.06!)
>>The goal should be to run more trains on the same track with safety and speed. 10 or 20 foot accuracy is not necessary for such a goal. <<
If you're using train location as the basis for "rolling block," that would determine the closeness that a train in the rear could approach to. So it seems that the greater resolution of train location would allow you to space trains closer, and run more trains.
An example would be Station Time. Imagine that as the train in advance is accelerating out of a station, the next train is 10 ft behind pulling in. Impossible with current technology, but with rolling block, your TPH could increase appreciably.
You don't need a 1 block gap b/t trains for a labeling system to work. The Metro North sstem works fine with permissive operations. This is because the trains will be seperated at interlockings and between interlockings trains can not pass.
I have heard stories from the museum train movements this past summer that one time when they got back to Jay Street (Northbound "A" train tracks) the tower operator did not know how to setup the move to the southbound F train tracks. This would require a three amber lights on the signal (Yellow over Yellow over the yellow call on) and the whole train had to go back up to 59th Street and come back down. I don't know which of the three trips it was on this summer but it was supposed to happen on one of them.
It was the second one
1) How could you be working in a tower, and not know that? -probably 25% of the people on the museum train could have eventually figured it out (interlockings are failsafe, luckily)
2) On trip one, I believe there was a tower operator that rode on the train with us. He jumped off at Hoyt, Lafayette, and Church Ave to give us lineups. Not so on trip 2?
While researching a collegiate assignment
I came across this heading :
NYCTA Token Booth Clerk Tackles Passenger, 1996
I heard that the Jamaica LIRR station will eventually get remodeled. I sure hope they would have a direct connection from the LIRR station to the Sutphin Blvd subway station. Right now, you have to go out on the street for just a tiny bit, but I imagine alot more people would use the subway from LIRR if the connection was direct.
What are the LIRR's plans for Jamaica?
The remodeling work on Jamaica Station was halted when the AirTrain project was approved. The plans had to be revised to include a platform for the AirTrain. It would seem that the new platform would be south of track #10 (bypass track). I don't believe that any further work was scheduled for the lower level.
The artist's rendition of Jamaica station at Howard Beach A station appears to show the airtrain platform where the overpass is, above and perpendicular to the LIRR tracks.
The completed guideway at Howard Beach is perpendicular to the A subway. As for Jamaica Station, check out www.panynj.gov for details. Their photo gallery is pretty good.
Steve, the way it looks now, I would guess that the AirTrain will make a serious right turn from above the Van Wyck and cross over the Jamacia M-1 yard by Atlantic Avenue, then merging into Jamaica Terminal on the South end of the complex.
Is this an accurate assesment?
BMTman
That appears to be correct. Pile driving on the Van Wyck shoulder was completed for this purpose - the columns and guideway are in progress...
How fast is the Airtrain going to go and where will the stops be?
Check out www.panynj.org, and click on the AirTrain menu item. The system map and stops are all there, along with a gallery of photos and FAQ.
Thanks I'll check it out.
According to sources at the MTA and the Port Authority, the MTA has plans to spend $387 million to rebuild Jamaica Station. I've seen artist's conceptions of it and the plans are quite beautiful; the subway, AirTrain and LIRR lines will be fully integrated in this new station. $287 million is MTA money and $100 million comes from the Port Authority. According to the Greater Jamaica Development Corp., the station rebuild bids should start fairly soon.
Also, please note that the Howard Beach-JFK station will be undergoing a $75 million rebuild to fully integrate it with a new AirTrain terminal.
Both TA facilities should be ready (if all goes well) in time for the AirTrain's first day of service (2002 for Howard Beach, 2003 for Jamaica).
According to sources at the MTA and the Port Authority, the MTA has plans to spend $387 million to rebuild Jamaica Station. I've seen artist's conceptions of it and the plans are quite beautiful; the
subway, AirTrain and LIRR lines will be fully integrated in this new station. $287 million is MTA money and $100 million comes from the Port Authority. According to the Greater Jamaica Development Corp., the station rebuild bids should start fairly soon.
Getting back to John's original question, as far as I know (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong) the Jamaica station rebuild plans will not involve any work below street level. In other words, nothing on the subway level will be changed in any way. What I do not know is whether the top level of the escalator that leads into the subway station will be brought within the LIRR station from its current location on the sidewalk just outside the train station building.
Whatever the case, I wouldn't imagine that many of the airport passengers who use Airtrain to Jamaica will take the subway vs. the LIRR.
You are correct - the subway improvement will be limited to integrating escalator or elevator access through above-ground improvements.
Queens-bound airport passengers will find the subway most convenient - and cheaper, than the LIRR. Manhattan passengers will use primarily the LIRR, and when the East Side Access project is accomplished, giving the LIRR two more tracks into Manhattan, the Port Authority is considering the use of hybrid rail cars which can use both the Air Train guideway and LIRR tracks; thus the AirTrain vehicle can go directly from the terminal to Manhattan and back. The cars currently on order from Bombardier cannot do this, and in any event the current inadequacy of East River tunnel capacity would make AirTrain presence on LIRR tracks proper a nuisance to MTA schedulers.
...when the East Side Access project is accomplished, giving the LIRR two more tracks into Manhattan, the Port Authority is considering the use of hybrid rail cars which can use both the Air Train guideway and LIRR tracks; thus the AirTrain vehicle can go directly from the terminal to Manhattan and back. The cars currently on order from Bombardier cannot do this, and in any event the current inadequacy of East River tunnel capacity would make AirTrain presence on LIRR tracks proper a nuisance to MTA schedulers.
I'm having real difficulty imagining a trainset that does both of these things. One's lightweight and runs on a guideway; the other is heavy and runs on tracks. Are there more details anywhere? (Haven't checked PANYNJ website yet -- did this come from that?)
And frankly, given that there are many more hotels around Grand Central than around Penn, it makes more sense for tourists to run the AirTrain out of Grand Central than Penn anyway. A PANYNJ planner, when asked what he'd do if he could design AirTrain "properly", said they'd run it through the Steinway Tunnel so it hit both GCT *and* Times Square. Now THAT would have a sensible solution ....
The source of that information is the PA office responsible for capital projects. Please note, however, that this does not mean it will happen, only that it is an item on somebody's menu, to consider.
You make a good point about GCT's proximity to hotels.
Hotels are planned for the Jamaica Station vicinity - an Airport conference center in Jamaica would not only be convenient to airport customers, it would continue the investment the area's already getting. Since there are three federal agency headquarters in the area and a lot more business traffic already, this holds a lot of promise. Congestion may be a problem, though (but considering that the biggest activity, and problem 15 years ago was drug dealing, this is manageable by comparison).
Hotels are planned for the Jamaica Station vicinity - an Airport conference center in Jamaica would not only be convenient to airport customers, it would continue the investment the area's already getting. Since there are three federal agency headquarters in the area and a lot more business traffic already, this holds a lot of promise.
Conferences held a quick AirTrain ride away from the airport would absolutely be a success, esp. if they could serve travelers who don't want to pay Manhattan prices OR can't get rooms in Manhattan at crush times but still want public transit access to the island.
What about the Howard Beach area? Don't recall being through that station, but wondering whether a similar hotel/conference complex could be built at the A train/AirTrain station there? Or is it too residential too close (NIMBY problems)?
The Port Authority seems to believe that Howard Beach AirTrain users will be primarily airport employees (but I think that's a somewhat conservative estimate). Still, the ADA-compliant station will offer accessibility to anyone using the A subway - and that's a lot of people.
Howard Beach is a residential community; downtown Jamaica is a high-density business district. A hotel/conference center at Howard Beach is notimpossible, but the community boards and city council would have serious reservations about it, no doubt.
The Port Authority seems to believe that Howard Beach AirTrain users will be primarily airport employees (but I think that's a somewhat conservative estimate). Still, the ADA-compliant station will offer accessibility to anyone using the A subway - and that's a lot of people.
My bet is it'll be airport employees plus quite a lot of foreign tourists who simply default to public transit to get to airports, plus students looking to save $$$.
That's a pretty good guess. Also, keep in mind that people who would have used the A train already but don't because it's only ADA-compliant in one direction (and you have to climb on and off a shuttle bus) will now start using it because both it and AirTrain will supply the elevators, and getting off AirTrain puts passengers right at their terminal (or a short, indoor moving walkway away).
Also, having a fully enclosed transfer, out of the cold and the rain, will be nice too.
...getting off AirTrain puts passengers right at their terminal (or a short, indoor moving walkway away).
Well, sorta. I've traveled in and out of JFK a lot this year, and have watched the construction with interest. The new terminals (the huge international one and also Terminal One) have integrated AirTrain stations. The others don't; they have elevated stations several hundred feet out from the front of the terminal. Moving walkways are a smart idea if in fact they're planning them.
Now that there are plans for at least one new terminal, I'll be curious to see if they have to move AirTrain ROW to integrate it more closely into a terminal designed to take it.
Your assumption would be reasonable.
Yes, there are several AirTrain stations that are not part of a terminal per se. But I see columns approaching those terminals (example: Delta) so I assume those to be supporting the walkway. I don't think the Port Authority intends to make people go down to street level, then across a busy roadway, then back up again...
Many americans will "default" to public transit too - the difference is that the E will provide a faster ride to midtown, and thus A riders will primarily come from residential areas in Brooklyn and Queens - airport employees.
[A PANYNJ planner, when asked what he'd do if he could design AirTrain "properly", said they'd run it through the Steinway Tunnel so it hit both GCT *and* Times Square. Now THAT would have a sensible solution]
I like it too. Also add a connection to LaGuardia. And add a new four track tunnel for the Flushing line, but with the 2nd Ave sTubway still up in the air along with any other line extentions ... just no way it will happen ... to bad.
Mr t__:^)
[A PANYNJ planner, when asked what he'd do if he could design AirTrain "properly", said they'd run it through the Steinway Tunnel so it hit both GCT *and* Times Square. Now THAT would have a sensible solution]
I like it too. Also add a connection to LaGuardia. And add a new four track tunnel for the Flushing line, but with the 2nd Ave sTubway still up in the air along with any other line extentions ... just no way it will happen ... to bad.
Well, the first AirTrain plan was to run it from JFK to LAG and then into Manhattan via the 59th Street bridge trolley lanes. I believe the bridge was even reinforced during its rebuild to handle the anticipated weight of the AirTrains.
I suspect that there's still a Phase Two AirTrain that connects JFK to LAG with LIRR Jamaica as an intermediate spur. It's a short run on a straight line and would add huge flexibility to local air travel if you could fly into JFK and then tranfer to LAG flights on some kind of reliable headway and transit time.
We might see a JFK-LAG AirTrain in our lifetimes. I'm not anticipating a four-track Steinway tunnel, however.
[Well, the first AirTrain plan was to run it from JFK to LAG and then into Manhattan via the 59th Street bridge trolley lanes ...]
That's the first I've heard of the Queensboro Bridge idea. Not a bad idea ... fairly easy to get to from Sunnyside Yard/LIRR tracks. Some of the track ways leading to the plaza are probally useable, but you would have to add steel at the plaza, then the approach to the beidge is right there ... the upper deck of the brdge would be an option too.
[I suspect that there's still a Phase Two AirTrain that connects JFK to LAG with LIRR Jamaica as an intermediate spur ...]
I've heard that the PA feels it's done building track when the line to Jamaica is in. They only want to keep the parking lot spur. So many here hope the TA will buy the run to Jamaica from them & incorporate into the system. If Rudy was going to be in charge for another term, I could see him buying it if the TA wouldn't & having a "private" company operate it, e.g. Queens Surface Corp.
BTW, I can think of a few guys who are almost qualified to operate such equipment & one already works for the company ;-)
(Boy am I getting way out on the end of the branch .... opps it just broke ... CRACK, BOOM, THUMP) ... been spending so much time with Stef lately that I'm begging to talk like him |:-0)
Mr t
The primary reason that AirTrain was cut back to JFK-Jamaica was that the proposal of 1994 would have cost more than $5 billion to accomplish. As you folks here have pointed out, the ROW was there, the bridge capacity is there, and the use of Sunnyside would minimize the NIMBY factor. Manhattan would have received it enthusiastically.
But $5 billion was a bit much for one project for the PA, given the other demands on funds. Their new Capital Plan proposal totals $9 billion, to offer some perspective.
Still, nothing is ever written in stone - and the bridge isn't going anywhere. Anything's possible with a "can-do" attitude.
Well I think it would be alot easier if they had an escalator from the LIRR level to the subway, instead of having to go out on the street.
The subway entrances next to Jamaica Station have the unusual feature that you have to step up first, two steps I think, before you can go downstairs to the subway. This seems very odd. Anyone know why they were built this way?
Flood prevention?
Interesting footnote to the Conrail breakup:
When the conrail breakup was announced, Norfolk Southern made it clear that the Hollidaysburg shops, conrails main car repair shops, would be kept open. Why? Hollidaysburg is in Bud Schuster's congressional district. And Bud is the chair of the House Transportation District.
Early this past week, the house republicans decided that they would indeed, as they said they would in 1994, end chairmanships after 6 years. So most committees - including Bud's transportation committee - will get new chairs.
Wednesday, NS announced they were closing the Hollidaysburg shops. They could not even wait until after Christmas. Coincidence? Somehow I doubt it. Cynical jerks.
I'm no fan at all of Bud "concrete" Schuster, the man who brought us I-99, the all-time most useless interstate (IMO). And I think the committee rule is a good one. But at least Bud looked out for his people, and if I were one of them, I'd sure hate NS right now.
I-99 violates the interstate numbering scheme.
It should become I-976, so that it would conform to it (and be a nice disgrace to CoorsBud).
I remember when Kawasaki replaced all the cracked trucks in the R110A, but the new ones immediatly cracked as well. When it is rebuilt, will it have R142 trucks, are its own special one? And either way, how does the MTA prevent them from cracking a third time!! -Nick
I've seen a lot of different speeds mentioned, Acela -160, 150 -
Metroliner 150? Wasn't the ACELA supposed to save schedule time between points. How can it do that when at times it apparently runs slower than the Metroliner? What I am missing here?
Chuck Greene
You are seeing figures for non-revenue speed trials as well as figures for regular revenue trip speed. Currently between Washington and New York, the top speed for Metroliners is 125 and for Acela is 135.
Thanks Bob: Now it makes more sense to see those numbers!
Chuck Greene
Please note also that the Metroliner cannot take curves at 125mph - it has to slow down to, I believe, 75-80, or risk centrifugal force blowing it off the tracks. The Acela can take even the worst curves at well over 100 mph due to its ability to tilt into the curve. Anyone on this site who rides a motorcycle can appreciate this. Additionally, acceleration from a standing start is faster.
Yes, and no. ACELA takes curves at higher speeds, and thus its average speed is higher than Metroliner for longer distances.
But the tilting is for passenger comfort only. The trucks don't tilt; they're engineered to take curves at higher speeds.
I would love to experiance the G forces of an Amfleet cornering at 125. Amtrak could market the train as a roller coaster.
[But the tilting is for passenger comfort only. The trucks don't tilt; they're engineered to take curves at higher speeds.]
Well, the tilting is for passenger comfort AND turning capability. The tilting chnages the center of gravity of the coach so that it leans in the turning direction thus insuring stability. Amfleet coiaches CANNOT take those curves at speed or risk derailment. Their center of gravity is static and their momentum force is a vector directed as a tangent to the curve which therefore makes it more prone to derailment.
Dan
An article in Metro magazine a few months back by the builders of
the trainset, Alsthom, indicated that the tilting was for comfort
only, and that with the tilting turned off, the trains could attain
maximum speed safely -- although passengers wouldn't be too happy.
Thank you for correcing my understanding of the engineering!
My understand was the big difference under ACELA is New York to Boston. New York to Washington was already pretty fast, but the curves on the New Haven line -- and the need to switch to diesel in New Haven -- slowed things down. Now then car run electric trains in the whole corridor, and the tilt allows higher speeds in the curves.
Here's a
link to a good technical explanation of what's going on
with the Acela Express trainsets.
The article reminded me that the "proof" in the fact that the Acela Express does not need tilting to achieve full speed, is the fact that the power units do not tilt. Only the passenger cars do. Thus, the engineers get to feel the g's!
Here's a
link to a good technical explanation of what's going on
with the Acela Express trainsets.
The article reminded me that the "proof" in the fact that the Acela Express does not need tilting to achieve full speed, is the fact that the power units do not tilt. Only the passenger cars do. Thus, the engineers get to feel the g's!
My understand was the big difference under ACELA is New York to Boston.
Correctamundo. Chuck asked for a comparison of Metroliner and Acela, so the response was limited to the Washington to New York segment.
I'll second that. However, please note that Amtrak will be working on signal upgrades and other "tweaking" everywhere so that schedules can be gradually improved.
In years past, a non-stop express Metroliner demonstrated a Washington-NY run of two hours 25 minutes in revenue service. I believe that once the Acela's runs take full advantage of tilting, the signalling system is refined yet again, station "dwell times" are reduced, and the speed is cranked up a bit more, we'll see two and a half hour runs between Washington and NY even with four stops.
I'd also like to see full four track capacity throughout the length of the route from Boston-Washington (is the ROW available?), as well as the closure of all gate crossings (there still are a couple working between NY and Boston).
Finishing the fencing would help, too. Every year I read about a few hapless immigrants from South America who are used to walking along (or on top of) railroad tracks at night and then try it on the Northeast Corridor, only to get creamed by an Amtrak or Metro-North train barrelling by at speed (I have seen the Metroliner come by commuter stations and you really can't hear it all that well until it is almost on top of you).
There ius no way to 4 track all the way from DC to Boston because the RoW is too narrow. Amtrak could possibly buy more land, but the real problem comes in bridges and the like and tere are some very long bridges in CT and MD. Amtrak could improve service w/ some slective track additions like where commuter trains could tie up service.
We are all talking about the Track, Trucks and cars but are forgetting another important aspect that allows ACELA to travel over 125MPH even Todd's link didn't point out the new type of overhead wires from New Haven to Boston.
The problem is that the overhead power wire system, called "catenary", has to be rebuilt south of New Haven. The current system was installed by the Pennsylvania RR back in the 30's, and is rigid, so that wire tension varies with ambient temperature. The
new type North of New Haven has a system of pulleys and weights that maintain "constant tension" on the wires allowing faster speeds as well.
The real advantage is in the New York - Boston section. The new
electrification north of New Haven is state of the art, and speeds up to
150mph are allowed.
An interesting point. But a modern pantograph can compensate for this, to some degree. And Acela will reach 135 in the NY-Wash segment.
The part between New Haven and OAK was built by the New Haven RR between 1910 and 1918.
Sundays Times reports that Friday nights fire on the NY Waterways Weehawken to West 38th Street ferry apparently was caused by an electrical short circuit in the engine room. The 8 passengers and 3 crewmen were transferred to another ferry and returned to Weehawken. Officials reported Friday that the crewmen and 2 passengers were taken to the hospital for smoke inhalation treatment. Ferry officials say the crewmen went to the hospital for drug and alcohol testing and the 2 passengers simply accepted the companys offer of a free exam.
Say THAT three times fast!
"Friday Ferry Fire Forces Ferry Forward into Funny Fog
Friday Ferry Fire Forces Ferry Forward into Funny Fog
Friday Ferry Fire Forces Ferry Forward into Funny Fog"
How's that? :P
Now SAY it.
If you don't have a microphone, use Pagetalk
Alliteration at its finest!:-)
Since the transportation bond act failed at the polls on Election Day, is there anynews to report in regards to a full length 2nd Av subway on whether or not we are going to see this project go through.
The Port Authority announced that part of its Capital Plan (linked to toll and fare increases) would support a 2nd Av subway; $700 million in the current Capital Plan is dedicated to the 2nd Av subway without the bond act; for the rest, it's up to all of us to bug our legislators (esp. the Assembly and Senate) to get appropriations added for this vital project.
Contact the Manhattan Borough President's office. Robert Kulikowski, PhD, is a staff member effectively in charge of a task force on the Second Av subway. The office is at One Centre St., 19th Floor South, NY NY 10007. Contact him by email at rkulikowski@hotmail.com, and offer to help.
for the rest, it's up to all of us...
I propose that we take the initative and build the damn thing ourselves. I nominate myself as project manager, because I'm a Civil Engineering major and this would probably get me bonus points in my Strength of Materials class I'm taking next year. Since I have Thanksgiving break from this Wedesenday to Sunday, I'll fly to NYC with a shovel and we can start digging. To motivate the rest of the Subtalkers to join, I'll buy pizza for everyone one day this week. Our blueprint for the line will be the track map Dave has elsewhere on this site. Anyone with Mechaincal Engineering experience can be in charge of building the subway cars for the line. We can probably foot the bill for the line because a shovel might cost, say $15, and if 10 Subtalkers show up that'll be $150 for the whole project, not including the pizza I'll buy for everyone.
If this is successful, I'll come back during Christmas break and rebuild the Manhattan Bridge by myself. I have an Erector Set my parents gave me a long time ago that I never opened. If I need another set, I'll go to FAO Shwartz and buy another box. This might get me points for my Statics class.
This sounds waaayy too easy, I hope I didn't leave anything out...
If you really want to help, contact the Manhattan Borough President's office, or Sheldon Silver's office (Assembly Speaker) and show up to some of the meetings where people are tackling the political process to try to make things happen. Be patient, be persistent, understand the agendas at work, and make a real difference.
In case you haven't noticed, things have been accomplished. The MTA Capital Plans have funded $30 billion in improvements, a 63rd Street subway is now a reality (even if it isn't the original project, this one's real and working), the Archer Av project happened, and AirTrain is a reality. None of these projects happened because people sat around lamenting, Monday Morning quarterbacking and not doing much else. They happened because a lot of talented people overcame bureaucratic inertia, political obstacles and engineering challenges and dedicated themselves to the task at hand.
It won't happen overnight. AirTrain will have taken eight years - but it's a reality because somebody eight years ago said "we're doing it" and got people and money to support it. It also happened because people realized that any given project isn't perfect, but with lots of input and cooperation, a good project can be improved and made to happen.
AirTrain will have taken eight years - but it's a reality because somebody eight years ago said "we're doing it" and got people and money to support it. It also happened because people realized that any given project isn't perfect, but with lots of input and cooperation, a
good project can be improved and made to happen.
But don't forget that airport-user fees provide AirTrain with a ready source of funds. In addition, it's a Port Authority project, and whatever its other flaws the Port Authority has much more of a "can-do" spirit than does the MTA.
Yes, that's true. But the only way we're guaranteed to not get anything done is if we don't try at all. Keep a positive attitude, keep trying, and who knows?
Here we have an Acela Regional train with AEM-7s, coaches and a cafe car
And here is a typical NYA consist with MP-15AC
I modifided GIFs from www.trainweb.org/tgifs to make these trains.
Dan
nyrail.cjb.net is currently down. I will inform you of it's re-emergence
Does a 6-coach Acela Regional trainset need 2 '7's for power? I'm pretty sure you'd only need one 'G'!
KP
I think they used 2 to insure that they'd have enough acceleration to meet the timetable, as well as malfunction protection, since Acela service is very high profile.
I guess they're still wary of using the HHP-8's. I had 656 on a recent trip to PA, and it underperformed between NYP & 30th Street (trip detail posted elswhere). You probably noticed Railpace made mention this month of problems with the HHP-8s. (I just began my subscription.) Speaking of Railpace, did you read the NYC transit news section? I think they got the car-type wrong when they mentioned the redbirds.
Or they use 2 if a power imbalance develops.
Does anyone have a nice photo of the Transit Museum gate cars (one or all) that they would like to see in the upcoming issue of The Third Rail Online? Credited, of course.
It is to be a companion to this picture of the same cars at the time of the 1965 World's Fair.
Thanks. No need to crop or compress.
There is a great full page color picture of them on page 53 of the Greller & Watson book The Brooklyn Elevated.
Upon the arrival of the first wave of SoundTransit express bus routes in Seattle a new bus / rail pass was implemented. It is valid on all systems in the Tri-County area including Pierce Transit, King County Metro, Community Transit (Snohomish County), Everett Transit (city of Everett municipial transit system), and SoundTransit. It works like this:
RIDER-SIDE:
PugetPass is available in a multitude of different denominations of money. Passes are 36 times the face value. A PugetPass worth 1.00 costs $36, a 2.50 Pugetpass costs $90, etc etc etc. The pass is good for unlimited rides on any transit that costs the same or less than the face value. If you want to ride something more expensive, you simply pay the difference. For instance, if I had a 1.00 PugetPass (Pierce Transit local service is a buck) and I wanted to board the Seattle Express bus (a 2.50 ride), I would swipe the pass and then pay $1.50. If I had a 1.00 pass and wanted to ride a Sounder (4.00), I'd pay 3.00 plus swipe my pass. In any event I would get the paper transfer or fare receipt for the higher fare. Transfers and fare receipts from all transit systems are also accepted unilaterally if they are equal or greater to the value of that agency's fare. For instance, if I took a Seattle Express from Seattle to Tacoma, my $2.50 SoundTransit transfer would work until it expired on any 1.00 Pierce Transit service since it was worth more. It is a system that works very well for the rider. But what of the other side?
AGENCY-SIDE:
There is a PugetPass commission that sells the passes and gets all of the money. It has boardmembers from all the agencies that oversee it. Every time a PugetPass is swiped it is recorded by the driver / operator / fare machine. At the end of each month the agencies submit how much money worth of fares were used by pass users. The percent of total fares paid through using the PugetPass is determined for each agency and then that same percent is paid out. Here's an overly simplified example:
At the end of month,
PIERCE TRANSIT - $60 [60 swipes at 1.00 a piece]
KING COUNTY METRO - $150 [50 swipes at 1.25 1-zone fare and 50 swipes of people paying a 1.75 two-zone fare]
EVERETT TRANSIT - $37.50 [50 swipes at 75 cents a piece]
COMMUNITY TRANSIT - $110 [100 swipes at 1.10 a piece]
SOUNDTRANSIT - $65 [20 2.00 2-zone fares and 10 2.50 3-zone fares]
and let's say $400 worth of Pugetpasses are sold. Well the totaly money spent by passholders was $422.50, so things are averaged.
Pierce Transit was responsible for 14.2012% of the total money spent so they get 14.2012% of the total, or $56.80. Pugetpass pays them the 56.80 form the money it collected. The same goes for the other agencies....it works very well and no one gets gypped.
HOW WOULD THIS WORK FOR NEW YORK?
Simple. The exact same thing. Let's say I ride the PATH every day. I'd have a 1.00 pass. One day I want to transfer to a subway. So I swipe my pass and put .50 into the turnstile and it lets me in. Another example:
I am a mathmatecian who lives in Sheepshead Bay and rides the Q so I have a 1.50 pass. Let's say I want to go to New Jersey. My 1.50 pass is good on the subway and on Path. I get on an NJTransit commuter rail train that has a $4.10 fare. I show my 1.50 pass to the conductor, give him $2.60 and I'd get my ticket. Voila! So how would it work? Exactly the same as Seattle. The new pass would be valid on all of the following:
NJTransit
PATH
Metro-North
Bee-Line
NYCTA
Green, Queens Surface, and all private bus companies in NYC
LIRR
LI Bus
SIRR
etc. etc. etc.....
A single pass for everything?
WOULDN'T THAT BE NICE
----Abe
PugetPass is likely to work because the various transit agencies are capable of cooperation. In turn, that at least in part stems from the fact that people in the area are capable of thinking regionally rather than parochially. New York is completely different. Here, there is no region, rather a vast number of fiercely independent fiefdoms that might as well be thousands of miles apart. To use a clear if not directly transit-related example, the city of New York has paid millions of dollars in "incentives" to corporations that threaten to relocate three miles to Jersey City. From a typical New Yorker's point of view, Jersey City might as well be in western North Dakota. This works both ways; many suburbanites consider the city a frightening Sodom and Gomorrah, to be avoided at all costs.
You don't have that sort of nonsensical thinking in Washington. And that's basically why PugetPass can work.
I would have to agree, did you know that the private's (Bus) do not get $1.50 for each swipe of the Metrocard, they only get about $0.70 back from the MTA. Their Express bus runs get even a lesser percentage back.
I'm not an expert but even as the Metrocard is now setup for the private bus operators it is hurting them.
Well, during the first weekend of the no express G.O. on the Lex, exactly 2 4 trains were sent down the express Saturday afternoon. There was no one at the platform of 86th when we stopped there, but once the doors closed I saw a man run down while fighting some pink tape. Then I remembered 59th. Earlier I had seen that across every possible staircase there were miles of pink tape strewn about with dozens of signs. I'd like to know how the people who got off my train got out. The T/O called 59st and told them to make announcements as to what track trains were arriving on, obviously unaware of all the "red tape" involved.
We tape off platforms or stairways if there is no service due to a G.o. As I have often stated many passengers think if they break the tape a train will come. I have gone back to stations with closed platforms full of passengers and tried to tell them there was no train and they would not budge! Finally someone cussed me out why I didnt tell them there was no train. I think you can fill in the rest!
As I have stated often-many riders are sheep and sheep are so lacking in intelligence that you could put on sheep on its back (legs up in the air) and it can not roll over and will actually die like that! Also a shepherd has to keep moving the sheep to different pastures-if they arte not moved they'll actually eat the dirt!
Another issue that does not help us is a tower sending a train on the "wrong" track. The dedictae announcer says all trains are local and then a train arrives on the express track and the passengers cuss us out saying we are stupid. Ah the joy of transit--I Do really love this job.
what dose G.Q. MEAN FRIEND FROM UTAH
MADE A MISTAKE WHAT DOES G.O. STAND FOR............
General Order
thank for the info
A G.O. or General Order is a service change due to construction activity such as
"All uptown 2 trains will skip 135 Street due to station rehabilitation from date and time to date and time" (this is not a real G.O. but an example.
If you'd like to review the current G.O.s go the NYCT's website at
www.mta.nyc.ny.us and click on NYCT and then click service notices-subway.
For you subway geniuses out there, I have to know every line that has a cut. It may sound silly to you, but, as my handle indicates, my favorite line is a cut. When I'm able to get to New York again, and I hope it's next year, I want to see close up every cut on the subway line. If some of you out there can help I would most appreciate it.
..Haven't seen any bandages around my line..
Dyckman Street may "cut" it..
The Sea Beach.
Brighton line from Prospect Park to Newkirk Avenue.
Portions of the Dyre Avenue Line (5) north of 180th Street.
Portions of Staten Island's SIR line.
5. The Culver tunnel from approx 5th to 9th Avenues was originally a cut. I imagine you could consider the remaining open section a cut.
6. Franklin Shuttle from Prospect Park to Park Place.
Are you including LIRR? Parts of the Main Line between Woodside and Kew Gardens. Parts of the Port Washington Line. Probably others.
The Harlem Metro North in the Bronx is also a cut, and so is part of the Path, East of Journalk Square
Thanks Pork. Is that all? Not too much in that type of subway line after all.
That's why I told you to try the Dyre Av. line.
Q: Then it won't take much of an effort to see and ride them all when I get back to New York. I could have sworn there were more. It always seemed to me that cuts preserved neigborhoods better than elevated, but, then again, who knows? Thanks for the info. I haven't ridden the Dyre Line since '91, so I will take that first. Thanks Q.
Smart: The near-empty westside trains go to Newport while the more crowded 34st trains go to Herborside.
Dumb: Only 15 minute service to a mall during shopping season.
Dumber: They actually think a confusing frequency chart is better than an actual full-length schedule. The frequency chart does not show the early morning trains that originate in Liberty State Park, and do not specify exactly when 34st trains start skipping stops.
Dumbest: A short while ago I noticed they were using the "door enable" function. Now they're not.
It doesn't make much sense that the "crowded" trains terminate at Harborside-- wouldn't it seem that much of that crowd is headed for Newport?
in today's NY times crossword clue 1 down is Railroad switch 5 letters starts with SH---
shunt
THANKS!!!
Speaking of crossword puzzles, my aunt says she was stumped by a clue in a Chicago Tribune puzzle some time ago. Something about New York subway divisions. I told her it would have been IRT, BMT, or IND.
In today's NY Times there is a pic of Metro North FL-9 2021 on a truck being donated to the new children hospital at Westchester medical center. it is being build into the new building
What a waste of a fine locomotive. They should have donated it to a shortline or, heven forbid, rebuilt it and kept it running.
Granted that there's no shortage of pointless verse selected for Peotry in Motion. Even so, I've not yet seen anything dopier than "Tower Suite" by Grace Something-or-other, spotted this morning on a downtown 9 train:
My father said,
"Why do you write soft sell?"
Cutting soft sole.
"To sow hard seeds," I said, "To sell hard souls."
Outside The Tower
The Time-Life sign blinked "Time-Life, Time-Life"
Shining its oculating light over the city.
I might've gotten a word or two wrong, trying to memorize it.
They might as well put up Felix's poems from that Odd Copule episode. :-)
So I guess I'm not the only one who thinks that poem is stupid! My cousin wrote a poem about string beans when she was only eight or nine years old that was ten times better than that one!
By the way, the poem you mentioned has actually been on the Subway for a couple of months now.
- Lyle Goldman
SEPARATION
Your absence has gone through me
Like thread thru a needle..
Everything I do is...
Stitched in it's color.
-W. S. Merwin
Saw, Loved, and Bought that Banner..
This is probably one of the better ones out there (from the back of my metrocard holder)
Night from a railroad car window
Is a great, dark, soft thing
Broken Across with slashes of light.
Window--Carl Sandberg
I was at th ePort Authority web site and I was looking at the ferries. Most of the ferries are run by private companies. Considering how expensive it is to ride most of those ferries (prices around $15), I'm assumin that they don't get any subsidies from anyone. If this is the case, What is the point of being affiliated with the PA? Perhaps brand recognition?
Considering how expensive it is to ride most of those ferries (prices around $15)
It lookes to me that "most" of the ferry routes are run by NY Waterway between Manhattan and NJ, and those are in the $2-$5 each way range, which is pretty reasonable.
The PA web page says only the Hoboken-WFC and E 34th-Hunters Point ferries have anything to do with the PA, the rest are shown only for informational purposes.
The only ferries in the $15 range are the Highlands Ferries which run from Pier 12 to Highlands and Atlantic Highlands in Monmouth County, NJ.
The Port Authority has started to subsidize the NJ ferries, using profits from NYC airports that would otherwise be used to connect the subway to LaGuardia. I know, because I had to write a memo analyzing Port Authority finance a couple of months ago.
Was taking a LIRR Flatbush train out to Jay to catch a ride with some fellow Subtalkers Saturday. This sign was just as you enter Nostrand Ave:
BEGIN INFO ZONE
Anyone know what that means? I guess it is part of the cab signal speed control?
Thanks
There are low power wayside radio transmitters on LIRR channel four that occasionally broadast a tape loop of information for the crew. (significant delays, extra holiday service, etc.) The Begin and End Info Zone signs mark the approximate boundaries of the area in which that signal can be heard. Bring your scanner...
--Mike
Sounds like something similar to ATIS in the airline world....except that LIRR crews probably don't have to acknowledge that they listened to each particular loop.
On my way home Saturday I was riding the Duce from the Bronx to Brooklyn.
Once we got to Manhattan we ran on the local track making express stops, I assume there was a G.O. (General Order) in effect and at 42nd St the center tracks were blocked by manual trips and red laterns. Anyway...
I notices as we blew through the local stops and at our express stops there were MTA vested "counters" out on the platform counting the pax.
This does not make sense to me to be spending the money to count ridership levels during a service disruption. Not only the one on 7th Ave line but all the connecting lines that were effecting ridership. I just find this a waste of our money!!
BTW, You weren't on the wrapped set because the BMTman & I spyed it in the 180th Street yard.
Mr t__:^)
Standard Redbird and we past only Redbirds, we saw the Yankee Train and the OPTO R62 5's though.
It's possible that they were studying the effects of the GO, e.g. whether usual local riders stay on the express, or if they divert to other lines. More likely it was just poor planning :).
1 - The counters have been out on the midnights since at least Thursday past (11/16) at 72 and 66 southbound and 59 and somewhere else northbound.
2 - That Deuce was supposed to be making local stops.
Can anyone tell me why the NYCTA uses metal frames around their train windows instead of rubber frames? They changed this on the front of the R-142 and I was wondering why they seem to prefer them?
Nappy
Makes them harder to kick out, and they can't be cut.
-Hank
The last couple of months, I've parked by Sutphin/Hillside on Monday mornings to facilitate driving to physical therapy (sciatica) after work. It's very easy to get a space near the part-time exit at Hillside & 144th at 7:00 a.m. A month ago, the exit stairs to the NE corner were taped off. This forces you to cross Hillside, with a very long red light, to get in or out of the station.
Having gotten fed up with this (and harrassed by a beggar waiting to cross Hillside at twilight), this morning I drove instead to Briarwood/Van Wyck- there's still good parkin' on some of the side streets off 84th Drive. Surprise- the entrance on the north side of Queens Boulevard on the bridge over the VWE entrace ramp from Main Street was taped off in just the same way! It was a real DeathRace 2000, with hundreds of disgusted Briarwoodians crossing the Boulevard in the middle of the VWE overpass rather than backtracking to the crosswalks at Main Street.
Funny how no work or anything seems to be performed at any of these places where stairways are blocked- not at least for the past month at Sutphin. There aren't any signs explaining the nature or duration of the closures either. Maybe it's life-threatening structural damage, and no one wants to riding public to know?
The alleged station manager for this stretch of line was completely unaware of any of these blockages.
I know- it's to give the homeless a place to roost for the winter!
They seem to be closing stairways a lot lately! The W. 6th St. entrance to the West 8th Street station in Brooklyn seems to be closing gradually. First, they started locking the turnstile gates early in the evening. Now, on top of that, access to the Manhattan-bound platform is completely blocked off, and is not scheduled to open until NEXT SUMMER! The way things are going, by then they'll probably destroy that whole side of the station! What is going on? This is getting ridiculous!
- Lyle Goldman
What's the deal with the J/M/Z Canal St. station? All but one of the stairways down to the connection with the N/R/6 (and along the closed Manhattan Bridge tracks) have been sealed off. Yesterday, I took a northbound M train from Chambers to Canal, where I wanted to change to the N or R, and I had to walk all the way around to the southbound J/M/Z platform to find the sole remaining stairway.
It seems to me that when the long-anticipated "Manhattan Bridge flip-flop" finally arrives, there will be a lot more people changing at this station for the BMT Broadway Express, and that one stairway will not be sufficient to handle the crowds.
Before, they had the stairs open on the northbound side and closed on the southbound side. From what I understand the northbound side stairs lead to one platform of the station along the H tracks, and the southbound to the other. While rehabilitation work was done on one side of the station on along the H tracks the northbound side was open. Now that that has been completed, rehabilitation work is in progress on the other side, hence the closing of the northbound side stairs and opening of the southbound side stairs.
I confused myself trying to write this message, let me know if I confused you at all and I'll try to explain it :)
Our Most Excellent Web Host Dave has just posted the full set of pictures I took at South Station when ACELA EXPRESS arrived. Here's the link.
Life is great when you have friends like Dave & Todd to put you right there ... thanks guys !
Mr t__:^)
It sure is !!!
Couldn't resist :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
LOL
Looks like a vacuum cleaner. Exactly what a lot of our subway tracks need, with all the litter.
Seriously, what year is this picture from, and where in NY did this line run?
Thanks.
The M-497 was a vintage-1953 RDC-3 which had been modified to support two GE J47 jet engines mounted in an engine housing formerly suspended from the wing of a B-36 bomber. (These were the same kind of engines often used, mounted on flat cars, as snow blowers - not a bad guess about it being a vacuum cleaner!) Quoting from Chuck Crouse's Budd Car: The RDC Story (Weekend Chief Publishing, 1990, page 121): "A support structure inside the car transferred the engines' weight to the side sills. Other modifications included construction of a streamlined sheet metal nose on the 'B' end of the car, lesser streamlining of the 'A' end and skirting on both sides, disconnection of the diesel-hydraulic drive from the trucks, replacement of the stock tapered-tread wheels with wheels having cylindrical treads, and installation of necessary recording equipment inside the car."
The beast was built in 1966 at the behest of the Commerce Department as a response to recent experiments with high-speed trains in Japan. It was tested on a 24-mile section of tangent track between Butler, Indiana and Stryker, Ohio, still equipped with 127-lb. jointed rail, on Saturday and Sunday, 23-24 July, 1966. Speeds in excess of 195 mph were attained. Since jet engines are capable of propulsion in one direction only, it had no reverse, and had to be towed back to the starting point after each run by GP-7 5759. After the experiment was over the car was returned to Croton-Harmon, restored to its original configuration, and returned to Beeliner service between Croton-Harmon and Poughkeepsie until its retirement in December 1977. It was reported as "awaiting scrapping" in February 1982.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Impressive. Thank you.
You're welcome! As an aside, it's quite possible that I have ridden in the M-497 at some point in its life as a regular Beeliner, as I grew up in Poughkeepsie and travelled to NYC on a regular basis. Since I don't keep detailed records of such things I can't be sure, of course, and I definitely would have had no idea of the significance of the unit at the time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mr. Pearlman claimed, with a straight face, the whole enterprise cost $58,000. Using that kind of math I can buy a new SUV for $100.
Actually, that's about right - the experiment cost that much money. Most of the money went for the used jet engines, the remainder for the conversion costs. Not included in the figure was the value of the material already on hand, such as the RDC-3.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another delivery was done today, 11/20/00 at 9:00PM with the usual consist of SBK locomotives, RD328 (R-14), and Loco 891 on the trailing end. I predicted that it would come today, and I was right!
But here's the surprise, I thought that 6346-6350 were arriving. I was wrong. Instead here comes spanking new R-142s numbered in the 6400 series!!! 6411-15 have arrived on the property. This must mean that Plattsburgh has a large number of 142s to ship. Why are they out of shipping sequence? Who knows....
Also.... Unionport Yard no longer holds 142As. The balance of the cars that were at Unionport should now be at Westchester Yard. The scene at Unionport is changing. Bombardier Units reside there at present. 6306-10 are on one track, 6331-40 are on another. Anyone know the whereabouts of 6301-05? I thought I spotted a 142 at 207th Street Yard, several days ago.
-Stef
Interesting news, Stef.
You were right! Now, should we hold our breath for Wednesday or Friday of this week? (better Wed. since I doubt anything will be going on during the holiday weekend).
BTW, after dropping you and Lou off, Thurston and I got a glimpse of the Yankee-wrapped R-142 train over by Westchester yard, while enroute to the Whitestone Expressway. Finally got to see them -- even though it was at 40 mph and on an elevated roadway at least 100 feet up.
BMTman
Speaking of which, what was the story with the R-142 train today? Today at about 1:35 P.M., I saw it, baseball suit and all, pass by 34th street going uptown WITHOUT EVEN STOPPING! There was even someone on the train, and the side destination signs flashed 241 St.! Does anybody have any information regarding this?
- Lyle Goldman
my theory is this. if it was going uptown at 1:35,then it is oos. it usually stops at times square at times between 12:50 and 12:55 pm. it had to oos. maybe that was a worker on the train. if there were passengers on the train then the train was in service but had to bypass 34th. however that is an out of place theory because 34th is a major transfer point.
terrence
by the way, when the hell are they gonna take off the yankee pin stripe thing? its played out! (aged,outdated,etc.) its time to show the R-142's natural beauty.
The old #7 Redbird with the METS logo was seen by me twice in the past week arriving at the Queensboro (or is it Queens) Plaza Station between 8 and 8:15 AM heading Manhattanbound. Orginally, it aws going to be An R-142 also painted in METS logo.
The #7 Subway Series consist will likely have its wrapping until the 2001 baseball season starts. As for the R-142, it may not have it for quite so long.
--Mark
One of those R142As tied up D service trapping a 1:28 D/BedfordPk this morning between stations while attempting a transfer to Coney Island yard. More "teething problems" for the NYCTA.
That must've been the same R142A I saw sitting on the express track at 125th on the 8th ave line (just south of the station) at around 0320 this (wednesday) morning. The D train I was on ran express on the local track. There was a OOS D train right behind the R-142A (end to end) in the 125th station. (pushing the R-142A?)
Peace,
ANDEE
subway surf reported: "There was a Department of Sanitation truck right behind the R-142A (end to end) in the 125th station. (pushing the R-142A to the marine transfer station)"
i knew this would happen!!!!
hahahahahahaha.......................
You're a sick man, Rico.
Peace,
ANDEE
Doug, you passed over East 180th Street Yard on the Bronx River Parkway when you saw the Yankee R-142 train.
As far as deliveries are concerned, I would estimate that next Monday, we should see another delivery. Deliveries have taken place, at least a week apart. On 11/14, 6341-45 came, and tonight (11/20) was 6411-15. 11/27 should hopefully be the next target date.
But as I said, Canadian Pacific comes down with it's freight on Monday, Wednsday, and Friday, so deliveries are done based on CP's schedule.
-Stef
Stef, I'll keep a sharp eye out next Monday evening (armed with a good camera w/800 film)!
And thanks for the correction on where Thurston and I saw the "Yankees" train (again, my Bronx geography leaves alot to be desired!)
BMTman
..Yea, Yea, nice.. sure.. but where's the surprise??
Thought a surprise was in this thread.. :)
I was surprised to see 6400 series subway cars arrive on the property this early. Sorry you didn't see that.
-Stef
Don't mind him, he's finally coming to realize that his precious rustbirds are off to the great rust bucket in the sky.(or ocean whatever the case may be) 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Hiya Stef.. I no-sold on purpose.. I
was hoping the surprise to be in
the form of a r-22 or other "vintage"
subway car in disguise..
Knowing me, I think you'd know this
by now.. so much for translator SURF.
Vintage Cars? Does a yellow R-14 work car count?
-Stef
Got me there.
; x
Looks like there's a couple of R12 or R14 in their MTA silver/blue tucked away in the back of Wakefield Yard, any ideas what they're planning to do with them?
wayne
It is supposed to be a Superintendent's personal project to restore 5782 and 5871. They've had several yards to call home over the years. They spent a lot of time at Coney Island as FDNY training cars, before being moved to Westchester Yard, and now 239th Street. They are on the Transit Museum Roster even though they have not been restored as of yet.
Hope the webmaster is taking note of this, he can add this note to the Museum Page!
-Stef
I saw what appeared to be two R-12s at Concourse Yard earlier this week, one in a silver and blue scheme (grafittied) and another in Redbird Red. Are these the same two cars?
--Mark
the red one is an r14
No. Those cars at Concourse are heading off to the big yard in the sky whenever someone decides to pull them down to 39th Street.
-Stef
How's about THIS for a Redbird?
wayne
Heh, that's great. We have to get you over to London, Wayne...
-Dave
So the Brits use "Line" instead of "Exp." for the 7th Avenue train. Very formal, with none of those garish multicolored circles-with-numbers like their American cousins. :-)
Yes and the 38 stock kicks BUTT in the express stretches.
They'd have to set it up different with two trailers in each bunch:
DM(A)-T-NDM-T-DM(D)+DM(A)-T-NDM-T-DM(D).
wayne
DM(x) = 'A' or 'D' driving motor
T = Trailer
NDM - non-driving Motor (like the odd # car of an R44/R46 bunch)
DM(A)-T-NDM-T-DM(D)+DM(A)-T-NDM-T-DM(D).
I assume you're looking to heypaul to solve this equation for "D" :)
--Mark
That was no surprise, that move was scheduled a week in advance. I know because my uncle did that move. Unfortunately, I was not able to take any pictures. I will let you know when the next move from Livonia Yard will be.
Sorry for not letting you all know in advance.
Correction: Linden Yard
The delivery itself wasn't a surprise, understand that. What the numbers were on the cars BAFFLED me. I have a pretty good idea when the deliveries are supposed to take place, but notice of these things would help.
-Stef
I was saddened to hear of the decease of Sanford 'Sandy' Gaster, who passed away in Rome at age 38. Some of you may have met him since he conducted some of the tours from the Transit Museum including Staten Island Railway and the LIRR Port Washington Branch. He was a bright, engaging fellow (he had a PH.D) and he'll be missed.
www.forgotten-ny.com
My God, I knew Sandy fairly well. What did he die of at so young an age? This is a shock.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>>My God, I knew Sandy fairly well. What did he die of at so young an age? This is a shock. <<<
I read about it in the BCUE newsletter and they did not reveal cirumstances of his death...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I called someone I know at the Transit Museum. It was a heart attack.
Seems he had a bad heart for some time. Only the good die young.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've heard one of the retired 3900 (?) series coachs will end up at Court Street.
This is happenning -- supposedly -- because of the partial MTA funding that the museum recieves. Seems that if some $$ is coming from the parent organziation, then rolling stock from their other companies must be represented in the collection.
Has anyone heard anything in this regard?
BMTman
I doubt it since any LIRR coach sits taller than any subway cars we have. They can fit in the museum. I saw a photo of a MP-72 on the SIRT layed up at Tottenville next to an old 1925 MUE-1 car. Quite a difference in height.
3900 series ? Perhaps you may mean 2900 series !
Bill "Newkirk"
[3900 series ? Perhaps you may mean 2900 series!]
Right, Bill. Sorry, being a Brooklyn Boy, I'm not up on my LIRR coach knowledge. ;-)
BMTman
So do the elevated gate cars. Do to the LIRR car what they did to the Gate Cars, lowered the roof!!!
[So do the elevated gate cars. Do to the LIRR car what they did to the Gate Cars, lowered the roof!!! ]
With the elevated cars, they were made of wood, so no big deal. These cars are steel, so obvious big deal there. Then there's a possible problem of asbestos in these cars. REALLY BIG DEAL !
Lowering the roofs would change their original appearance. Now you probably say, use the lower roof "zip cars" (1964 World's Fair MP-85). They're 85 feet long, they would make a racket in those IND tunnels !
Bill "Newkirk"
Aww, just get some IRT composite trucks out of storage and you got it made! :)
--Mark
Impossible! The Commuter Coaches are too big for a tiny Subway Museum to accomodate.
-Stef
Stef, I'm sure they can fit in the tunnel -- but as Bill pointed out, they may be too tall for their floors to match the platform edge.
You think they might be too WIDE for the station?? I'm not an expert in this area, so I can't answer that query.
BMTman
Width isn't a problem, it's the length. 85' cars such as those on the LIRR would be a tight squeeze in curved tunnels.
-Stef
Where is the track connecting the Subway system to the LIRR? The movement from the LIRR to the subways would be something I would love to see for myself. Also, do the third rail voltages differ between the two systems? I know that the subways run on 600 volt DC, but the LIRR uses 750 volts - is that true? Could a subway car run on the LIRR without modification of any electrical hardware?
Where is the track connecting the Subway system to the LIRR?
There isn't. Many people believe that they were connected at one time at Atlantic Avenue (I tend to agree with them), but if the connection ever did exist it has been gone for a long time now.
Also, do the third rail voltages differ between the two systems? I know that the subways run on 600 volt DC, but the LIRR uses 750 volts - is that true? Could a subway car run on the LIRR without modification of any electrical hardware?
Yes, yes, and sort of. The voltages are different - I think you're correct in stating that they are 600 and 750. A number of years ago some NYC subway equipment was run on the LIRR during testing, but the electrical system was damaged in the process, so yes, it's possible, but no, it's not practical.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There isn't. Many people believe that they were connected at one time at Atlantic Avenue (I tend to agree with them), but if the connection ever did exist it has been gone for a long time now.
The Bay Ridge line connects to the Linden Yard, which in turn connects to the L and 3.
You're right, I forgot about that one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Pigs, there is also the alternate route via the South Brooklyn Railway trackage at 39th Street and 2nd Avenue. The SBK itnerchange yard leads into the subway system via the tunnel portal at 4th Avenue in Sunset Park.
LIRR equipment could be brought in through there and onto the B, N and R lines (or into 36th Street Yard).
BMTman
That has one advantage: Direct connection to the IND/South BMT. I wasn't thinking of it because street running seems a little too annoying. But the Eastern Division curves are more annoying, aren't they?
If they were going to go to the museum I would think the only way would be to cut up the car(s) in sections and reassemble them at the museum, sort of like how the old houses of Long Is were brought to the Old Bethpage Restoration Village.
You can still see where the LIRR connection was at Atlantic Ave. If it did in fact exist, no revenue moves were ever made.
This is the connection August Belmont used to connect his Mineola from the IRT to the LIRR, no?
That's the one.
Go to the front end of IRT #2/3 north bound platform. To your right as you face north (inbound) is a pocket, now look left you'll see space for tracks to cross across all the tracks. Many switchs also still exist right there. Where exactly the pocket leads to on the LIRR side is a little harder to see, but it obviously goes to one of the existing LIRR tracks.
BTW, At Branford we've had a number of folks that want to SEE the Mineola since it was featured on the History Channels "Lost & Found".
During our Autumn in NY event we made it part of the yard/shop/barn tour. She's in pritty bad shape, but you can walk around inside & see many of it's unique features. I believe the TA museum has a model with the inside done too (they have several trolley/elevated models in O or G scale).
Mr t__:^)
Allegedly. There is some discussion on this point among transit historians, and while I side with those who say that Belmont did use it for that purpose I acknowledge those who say the connection was never completed - there is a substantial body of evidence to support both positions.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not anymore. A railfan and ardent spelunker (sp?) did some research at SUNY earlier this year, and indeed DISCOVERED a hand-drawn map of Atlantic Avenue station's terminal tracks including the IRT station. The drawing is part of the Robert (Bob) Emery Collection of LIRR trackage at Stony Brook. The Belmont connection was in place and was used during the teens and early 20's.
I do have a copy of it (albeit, poor quality).
BMTman
The August Belmont Connection portal is still visible at the northern-most end of the #2 & #3 platform at Atlantic Ave. It connected with LIRR track #6 (which is where the current track #1 is today).
The current LIRR ticket office and announcement booth are built on the ROW for the Mineola connection.
As for the voltage problems between IRT and LIRR equipment: back then I doubt if the LIRR was running on 750 volts. They had the smaller, IRT-sized MP-41 cars, so I would think that they ran on the same 600 volts as New York subway equipment.
BMTman
They had the smaller, IRT-sized MP-41 cars, so I would think that they ran on the same 600 volts as New York subway equipment.
Good point. Remember that the BRT and LIRR had joint services (Chestnut Street incline, for one, was recently discussed) and therefore must have shared similar voltage. There weren't separate third rails for these supplemental services.
--Mark
There ya go, Mark.
BTW, have a Happy T-Day!
BMTman
BMTman, same to you and all SubTalkers BURP (er, excuse me!)
--Mark
Yes, I've seen it numerous times.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Would be interesting, but if it doesn't happen, i.e. because they want to do it, but cars won't fit AND they want to save one ... well they'll just have to PAY a local museum to take a set.
Their choices are few ... a couple of STEAM museums on LI, the Bob Diamond TROLLEY place in Brooklyn, Branford, NH oriented museums of Danbury & Waterbury ? I'll bet it won't happen.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, the RR Museum of LI already has 3 units of these same coaches, so they won't be taking it.
BMTman
AND the electric stuff at the "save engine 39" museum at Riverhead/Greenport is of the previous generation. The M-1's would look a little out of place besides 39 smoking it up.
BUT at "save engine 35" at Glen Cove they only have some old diesel coaches & cabooses ... would they want some modern electrics ?
BTW, they just raised enough cash to buy one of the last wooden cabooses that is a crew shack at Branford right now.
Mr t__:^)
RMLI already got a trio of the P72 cars. Not sure of the numbers, but they do have them already.
I heard something particularly distressing. It seems that over the weekend some Amtrak conductor had a man forcibly removed from a train by the police just because he didn't like the man's shirt! Does anyone have more information on this?
- Lyle Goldman
Wasn't this LAST weekend?
Supposedly the shirt in question
read: NEW YORK F****N' CITY.
Checkin the Calendar..
Hey cool, I'll remember when I go on the acela express to try it out* (first class, of course) to wear my snow camo pants, harley shirt, bandana, biker wallet, leather jacket, boots, etc. Where in Amtrak's official rules does it say I have to dress like a rich snob to ride the Acela? Ok, granted it'll be a culture shock (I was woefully underdressed the last time I was on the metroliner), but hey, what the heck.
Are they going to start tossing passenger whose socks don't match?
Hey, there's a Subtalk trip idea - NJT to Septa to Philly, tour the Market Frankford line, then Acela Express back to NY. Any place I can submit this one to, Dave?
Some people find public expression of the "F" word unacceptable. I suspect you would be permitted to ride Acela with a ticket attired as you describe, but I also suspect you might run into problems if your clothing said "F*** Amtrak".
Hey, there's a Subtalk trip idea - NJT to Septa to Philly, tour the Market Frankford line, then Acela Express back to NY.
Sounds like a plan, except that the schedule beginning December 11 has Acela Express leaving Philly for NY at 6:35 AM.
He was removed and dumped at a gas station with a pay phone. Cops drove off. Amtrak has refunded and appoligized.
The story ran this weekend, but it occurred last Thanksgiving.
-Hank
I spotted a NYC2012.com advertisement on a Bronx Bus today featuring passengers riding in a subway car. It's painfully obvious that the location is the Transit Museum and the car is the World's Fair R-33. I did a double take when I thought I recognized one of the faces in the picture. He was an older gentlemen who had his eyes closed, apparently inattentive. If it is who I think it is, he's a big influence down at Coney Island Shops, trying to get the AB Standards rolling. Mark W., do you know the old gentlemen that I am referring to?
-Stef
>>>...do you know the old gentlemen that I am referring to? <<<
I know who it is you speak of and he would be pretty PO'd at you calling him "old".8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, if he keeps himself in the same shape that he's kept the D-types in all these years, he'll live to be 200!
--Mark
On monday evening (11/20) as I was about to enter a I saw the conductor trying to wake a sleeping bum on the same train. But the sleeping bum didn't move an inch. I was curious and suspicious so I stayed in the same car. When it arrived at Main St, the "sleeping" bum was still in the same sleeping pose. When I went closer to get a better look, I noticed (apart from him looking hispanic) his face was purple and kind of bloated. He looks to be in his 20s. I'll check some newslinks tomorrow to see if this will be mentioned.
BTW, when the train arrived at Main St, the Subway Series train was on "Flushing-bound" track leaving the station.
Oops, forgot to mention I got on at Times Square... which explains how the conductor had the time to try to wake him up.
A couple of inconsiderate men sneezed all over my wife several times on the way to work yesterday. I hope this isn't the plague.
It seems all the R44's and 46's smell like cough drops. Perhaps it's a good idea to wear a mask, or stand away from other people (especially at the window).
If you think someone is ill or needs assistance, you don't need the conductor's permission to notify the NYPD - and thus perform an act of kindness for this person. A purple face probably meant he was in trouble.
He didn't indicate you needed the conductors permission to notify the NYPD.
[A purple face probably meant he was in trouble. ]
Maybe that was Barney on the #7 !
Bill "Newkirk"
The conductor already knows since he tried to wake the guy up while the train was still in Times Sq... I think that's why nobody else in the car did anything to the guy. Some passengers who boarded at Grand Central even stood next to the guy while using the straphangers and even some sat right next to the guy. The guy just wasn't moving at all and looks rather peaceful despite the unusually purplish face... the most purplish face I've ever seen from any person in real life... just something I'd thought I share on this board.
I didn't find any newslinks relating to this incident. Guess this stuff is just no longer newsworthy material.
That reminds me of an incident at 34st-Penn Station on the (A)(C)(E) a couple of years ago. While waiting for a train to go uptown, there was a homeless woman asleep on the bench. The funny part was she slept so still, there was no body movement at all including breathing.
Other passengers were began to take notice, but nobody called 911. After a while of observing, she woke up and everybody took off. She had us fooled as we thought that she had passed on.
Bill "Newkirk"
"I didn't find any newslinks relating to this incident. Guess this stuff is just no longer newsworthy material. "
Unfortunately, TV news is merely tabloid news, and loves politicizing things like the election, and completely misses the point.
What else would you expect from a media that is owned by billionaires and gears to their upper class friends in the suburbs. They rarely report anything on the subways.
Well Mr. Class Envy, If you had a brain cell in that red head of yours, you would know that TV News tends to be the news source for the blue collar individual. People on higher economic strata only use the TV for breaking news usually.
Sure did report the "dead passenger" on the
1/9 line last year...
Yes, the "Subway Series" consist was busy plying the Flushing Line all day Monday.
--Mark
While waiting for a D at 34th Street Monday at about 12:30PM I noticed that all F's were making annoucements indicating that they would be terminating at 21st/Queensbridge. Also when the D I was on got to 7th Ave. the conductor announced "No E service to Queens go to 42nd and take a 7 or 34th to take an N or R". Any one know what happened? Someone who asked me for directions said that they said something about a broken rail.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was on a southbound train sometime after 12 yesterday. The train waited at Queens Plaza for 10 minutes before proceeding to 23-Ely, then the train waited there for 15 minutes. I heard from the conductor of the train that due to a track condition in the 53rd Street Tunnel, trains were running down the line, and trains were making all regular stops, but were using one track for both directions. This meant that the train I was on had to wait until the track cleared.
The strange thing is that the train that we were waiting for at 23-Ely was a train! That's right, a train! (I could tell it was a train because the train consisted of eight R38 cars and the end route sign had a C on the end.) What's a train doing running in an already crippled tunnel?! Anyway, once the train cleared, the train was switched to the Queens-bound track, ran at no more than 20 miles per hour through the tunnel, and switched back north of the Lexington Avenue stop. Strange, isn't it?
good god, all those html tags in this post must've been hell on your fingers!
I suspect he just copy and pasted them.
[I suspect he just copy and pasted them.]
Yup.
They are still a pain after the first few times we get the idea. There used to be a poster that filled the lower half of his message and it took forever to load on a slow line. Yah once it is in the cache but still..
There was a broken rail in Queens somewhere. Service was delayed but running at 3:30pm. I saw queens bound F,F,E,F before a city bound F while waiting at Queens Plaza. The PA annoucment said "due to a brokern rail service is delayed but running on the E and F".
there were also delays on the E this morning
The reason for the E delays on Tuesday morning was due to an E train which had broken down at Sutphin Blvd. on the Manhattan bound track. Everytime the train charged up, it would go into emergency by itself. They had to "sectionalize" the train which means they had to cut off brake pipe air and straight air to the bad cars, had to cut out the brakes on the bad cars and charged up the good cars and then pulled the bad cars. They then "wrong railed" the train back to Parsons/Archer so as to resume service. After sectionalizing, the train was 4+2+4.
North 4 cars: charged up and operated by the TSS(supv.) and accompanied by the RCI(fix-it man).
Middle 2 cars: not charged up, brakes cut out.
South 4 cars: charged up but not used for power purposes. T/O holds down controller(to prevent the south 4 cars from going into emergency) and releases brakes. Middle 2 and south 4 cars are then pulled by the north 4 cars at restricted speed.
It took them 45 minutes to move the train out of the way.
The reason for the delays to E/F/G/R service on Monday was due to a broken rail in the 53rd Street tube on the Manhattan bound track.
On Saturday, I was on a train going towards Main Street. At 111th Street, I saw a work train on the layup track next to the Flushing-bound track. As the train left 111, I noticed the train wasn't going straight as it usually does, but was switching over to the same track that the work train was on. It then switched again onto another track. The train arrived at Willets Point Blvd on the usual track, and nothing else was unusual with the remainder of the trip to Main Street.
There may have been a faulty signal on the local track. Also, the train may have been "polishing" the rails. This means that a train of passenger cars operates over infrequently used tracks to keep them free of rust. On the J, they opertate through that spur track between Cypress Hills and Crescent St in the same manner.
That explains the occasional excursion on the center track above Crescent St. every now and then ...
They did that exact move tonight with a J layup. I heard it on the radio.
On the systems that use rubber tires are the tires solid rubber or are they filled with air? if they are filed with air, how often do they have flats, and how are they fixed?
I just found my answer in the Montreal section....
The tires on the subways in Paris and Montreal are pneumatic, but I don't know anything about how the flats are fixed. I do know there was some kind of backup system that allowed the trains to run with a flat. There used to be a really comprehensive site made by Marc Dufour that explained just about everything there was to know about subway tire technology, but it seems to be down right now. Just in case its only temporarily offline, the URL is http://www.emdx.qc.ca/rail/metro/index.html.
Michalovic
For the Paris subway anyway; if one of the tires goes flat, there is a backup traditional steel wheel just behind the tire. When the tire becomes flat, the steel wheel would then hit the running rail and would operate along the running rail for the rest of the journey in normal service. A "flat tire" alarm would sound in the T/O's cab to notify him of the situation. The train would then be sent to the yard upon arrival at the terminal.
If they have steel wheels anyway, it sounds like rubber tires are just an added expense to make the Metro more high tech.
Montreal's Metro trains have a similar wheel arrangement; i. e., there is a steel wheel just behind each tire.
Yes, and they have had at least two destructive fires due to blown tires. The steel cording contacted the third rail, and.......
One of the fires destroyed a terminal station and two or three trainsets.
Marty may be able to give details.
The Germans came up with a design which was quieter than the rubber tire arrangement, and from what you have detailed in your posting, a good deal safer.
The steel wheel are also used to move the train around the turns. They are on the same axle, so they also are used for moving the train as well.
Robert
You mean those trains have steel-belted tires? Come to think of it, why not?
The Montreal subway aka Metro, we have both rubber and rail. The outside rubber tires run on a concrete slab while the inside is a traditional steel rail. I don't know about the flat tires. If one blows the systeme keeps on running seeing that it still runs on a traditonal steel rail.
If you have ever taken the Montreal metro you know how it is first class, clean quiet and very safe. It is a pleasant ride. I do miss the NYC notorious rail squeeking. That is the one setback of rubber tires, for any true railfans.
BTW our whole system is underground for those wondering.
Wayne has some pictures of the system. Maybe he can post them, hint hint.
>>> If they have steel wheels anyway, it sounds like rubber tires are just an added expense to make the Metro more high tech. <<<
The theory is that the rubber tired subways are quieter and smoother riding than steel wheels. Yes, it is more expensive, and no more quiet or smooth than later developed modern steel wheel subways. It is post WWII technology developed by the Michelin company (Does anyone see some self interest here?) in France in the 50s to replace pre WWII subway cars. It has been implemented in France and some places that look to France for technology.
Tom
the times today has a story about how Londoners feel about the underground, and compair their web site tubehell.com to the rider diaries of the straphangers campaign
Aaron you beet me to the punch, but I was going to take a different spin on the article .... Dave now has a place where he can send all those posters who are rude, meanspirited, offensive, etc. ....
That's right we'll just send them right to www.tube-H-E-L-L.com
Oh boy this will probably start a thread that goes on and on and on.
Mr t__:^)
For people like myself who live in the outer boroughs, rail services in general require people to pick trains up at Penn Station. I love exploring wild ideas, so here goes:
How about connecting the outer boroughs to Metropark (Brooklyn/Staten Island) or New Rochelle (Bronx/Queens) in order to pick trains up. By turning those two stations into bus hubs, using rail to travel between cities might become more viable than flying or driving.
By developing a network of staging points in these boroughs, the benefits of rail could be available to everyone, not just those who live near a subway or in Manhattan. From the hubs, high-speed services could be developed to connect major cities.
Is this feasible?
A brilliant and forward looking point. It is I believe mechanically feasible to bring C-Dot M-x's down Hell Gate the question is how to arrange their entry to say a TRULY useful Jamaica Atation/ AFAIK if theoverhead were extended then there would be no electrical issue, but more platforms would be needed. Imagine, though, sub to Jamaica, express to NR , timed transfer to acela!
I like your concept.
If I'm reading you correctly (if I'm not, please say so), some staging elements are there already in NYC and its environment:
1. LIRR and Metro-North service connects to Amtrak from outer areas.
2. There are several bus terminal hubs already operating, though they might need specific services to Amtrak. Two are in Manhattan (Port Authority's 42nd St. and GW Bridge terminals), but the 65th Street bus terminal in Jamaica and the Hempstead Transit Center in Nassau are places in the outer areas where your concept could be tried.
Jamaica Center's bus berths are being expanded, but if you're already there, the subway or LIRR takes you to Amtrak...
Again, I hope I understood properly what you were getting at...
Definitely a good idea. There currently is a bus (Bee-Line route 45) that connects the Pelham Bay Park terminal of the 6 train with the New Rochelle RR station, but it only runs about every half hour, and there is no service on Sunday (not sure about Saturday) or after about 6 PM. It could certainy use some additional service.
Lines 60 and 61, which run along Fordham Rd. and Boston Rd. stop within a block of the New Rochele station on the southbound run, but a few blocks away northbound. They have a bit more service than the 45.
I don't know if there is any service to Metropark from Brooklyn or Staten Island. I doubt it, but I could be wrong.
There is virtually no interstate service between Staten Island and [New] Jersey, save for the rush-hour 122 and 144 express buses from Hudson County.
I think that a bus connecting SI and Middlesex County would be useful, as well as expanded service on the 144. Academy Bus Lines operates commuter service from Manhattan to Staten, interstate service between Manhattan and the Jersey Shore area, as well as local routes in Middlesex and Monmouth Counties. An Academy service connecting Staten Island and Central Jersey should definatly be considered.
While we're at it, check this out:
Currently, when you get off the #10 Hudson Blvd or Broadway buses, you can spit across the Arthur Kill and have it strike our former house on Clawson Street in Oakwood Heights.
How about something more productive, like "spitting" one, or both, of those buses across the Bayonne Bridge?
Oh wait, I forgot - Red Tapeworm ;-)
Sounds like a good idea to me. To put two of the ideas I just read together, how about some busses between Hempstead Terminal and New Rochelle Amtrak station?
:)Andrew
I was on a crowded inbound 7 train today--crowded even by the standards of the 7 train, no-room-to-stand crowded. When the train pulled into 33rd, an enourmous number of people got out. By the time the train pulled out, there was even a seat or two available!
So what's at 33rd St? There's no transfer point there. I know this is a commercial and industrial district, but not, as far as I know, the draw that any of the 7's Manhattan stations are. Were they giving away money?
:)Andrew
Aviation High school and a huge nearby welfare office.
There are also several factories, including Swingline Staplers, and La Guardia Community College as well as IDCNY (International Design Center of NY) that all use the Rawson Street Station.
Swingline moved to Mexico.
Damn NAFTA.
And probably sweatshops.
All those people leaving the train are heading for the sweatshops??
It could be. I've seen alot of sweatshop buildings near the 7 train, especially in Jackson heights and L.I.C.
However there was nothing more depressing than the ride I took on the LIRR Port Washington line on one raw and rainy winter Saturday night.
Somewhere around Elmhurst, passed a building illuminated, showing heaps of clothes and sewing machines, and many, many young women workers. The lettering in front of the building was Chinese, and it looked in very poor condition.
Sweatshops are aplenty in NYC, especially in Queens and Brooklyn, where immigrants are exploited for their labor, and everybody else just looks the other way.
>>>and a huge nearby welfare office<<<
AH! So they WERE giving away money!
Also the Taxi and Limousine Commission.
DOT Signals & Streetlighting. A lot of people were on their way to complain about a traffic light in Flushing that isn't working :).
Starts 11/27 until; 12/20/2000- 24 hours daily.
2 trains will end at 238 due to signal work South of 241. As of now even the booth will be closed. To continue your trip to 241 a free transfer will be available to the BX41 bus and a Shuttle bus overnight.
Weekends from 6am Saturday till 7pm Sunday the train will end at Gun Hill Road and the Shuttle bus will run from Gun Hill.
More info on the bus will be posted on Bus Talk.
As of now the booth will be closed but that is subject to change. When I get more info I will post.
Also as part of this project, the dispatcher's office and crew quarters will also be closed since new facillities are being built over the platform.
The GO is in effect daily? Subway Buff, is there an effect on how 5 trains will operate on White Plains Road for the duration of the project?
-Stef
Source: poster inside the booth window at 241.
the 5 to 238 will still go to 238.
trains will relay as follows:
switch to middle track (yard lead) change ends and re-enter 238 on downtown track.
Thanks for posting this ...it directly affects my father's commute. I better let him know.
--Mark
RTO: Sunday Schedule.
Stations: Sunday Schedule with some added booths/entrances being open for part of the day. Some stations will also have extra Stationm AGent Coverage for part of the day.
The extra coverage will be at stations along/near the parade route. YES- Penn Station IND and IRT will have extra coverage as will 34/6th among other stations.
I'm assming Friday will be a normal day for trains AND stations, so the fiasco I endured at Fulton/Nassau on 11/10 won't be repeated?
You are correct! Friday will be a normal weekday service for stations and RTO.
Thanksgiving Day service will also feature Transit & Weather Together on WCBS 880 from 5-11am and 4-8pm. I'll be doing it from Boston, but will try to sneak in as many subway references as I can get away with!
We'll be listening!!
LIRR is adding extra trains to it's weekend schedule for Thanksgiving. Extra AM (10:30)trains to bring people to the parade and Extra PM (starting 11am) eastbounds to take people to thier dinners.
For example the normal 12:12pm Port Jeff train (Change at Hicksville for Port Jeff Stations) will follow with a 12:27pm Dual Mode train with through service to Port Jeff from Penn. A total of 19 extra trains will be added.
Aslo note OFF PEAK and FAMILY FARES for all of Thursday and Friday!!
Over The River, Through The Woods...
whether you're going to grandma's house, the in-laws, the Macy's parade, or someplace where turkey won't be served, we'll be running a special schedule for the Thanksgiving Holiday Weekend that will meet all of your travel needs.
To whet your appetite, on Wednesday, the day before Thanksgiving, we will operate a regular weekday schedule with seven additional trains departing Grand Central between 2 PM and 4 PM.
Now for the main course Thanksgiving Day. We'll be running additional inbound morning service for those of you going to the Macys Thanksgiving Day Parade. For those of you heading out to share a holiday meal with loved ones (also known as mooching a free meal from relatives), we've got expanded outbound service starting in the late morning and continuing until mid-afternoon.
It's only natural that you'll be moving a little slower after eating so much turkey. (Did you know it contains tryptophane, which causes drowsiness and even hallucinations? No, that isn't a reason to eat more of it!) No need to run for the train, though. We've got expanded evening service for those of you returning to New York City.
We only ask one small favor of you buy your tickets in advance and avoid long lines and hassles. During the busiest travel hours (10 AM 2 PM) all tickets from Grand Central and from Harlem-125th Street will be collected from you before you board our trains. (Over 29,000 customers departed Grand Central between those hours last year, and more than 100,000 customers are projected to use our service on Thanksgiving Day.).
As if this wasn't a full plate of service, we've got one last tidbit of information for you. All trains have off-peak fares throughout the holiday weekend. And you can take advantage of unrestricted Thanksgiving Day, Saturday and Sunday parking (no meters, no permits) at many Metro-North stations. Check for weekend and holiday parking signs at your station, or call (800) METRO-INFO; in NYC, call (212) 532-4900.
Originally published in Mileposts - A Publication for MTA Metro-North Railroad Customers November 2000 !!!
Have a happy turkey day !!
There is a R110 sitting in 207th Yard. You can see it from a passing 1/9 train. It's been there for atleast 3 months in the same spot. You cannot see it's route designation with you bare eyes but I believe it's blue. Does anyone know what's going on with it? why it's been sitting there for so long?
Thanks
Possibly the 3 car "cannabalized" for parts set ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Exactly.
Sees an "A" rollsign with bare eyes on the r110-A
Cars 3007, 3008, and 3009. All used for parts for the other 6 cars. You could see them better if you bring binoculars aboard the train.
Those three cars are not setting outside, they are in one of the barns. The T/A are tring to get them up and running so they can run all nine cars. The other six go out for one round trip on the "C" line as told in other posts. But when ever I went to 207 yard for training they were there all day on the same track and always up tose the front of the yard. The track in the back of it are cover over with alot of rust, witch meens that the train dose not move very offen tose the back of the track.
Robert
The R-110 at 207th Yard is Used on the C-line It makes one or two intervals a day. It would usually make the 09:56 C ou of 168th Street. The reason why it doesn't go out as much is because, there were 2 Conductors trained to work it and both were promoted.
It runs 7 cars, it was originally used for the A-line, but three cars were bad, they use them for parts. It does have route destination sign but however the software set up in there is only for the A-line, so at times ythe C/R may have to overide it to make announcements.
Actually it only has 6 cars left. An original full length train was only 9 cars long. They run in 3 car units.
I was at Chambers St. (A)(C)(E) yesterday. When I entered the concourse I looked through the iron gates downstairs and saw the R-110A leaving going northbound. So they were running yesterday, I missed them by a couple of minutes !
Funny, following the 110 was another (C) train. I was hoping for an (A) so I could pass it and catch it at an express station. Maybe next time.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R-110 at 207th Yard is Used on the C-line It makes one or two intervals a day. It would usually make the 09:56 C ou of 168th Street. The reason why it doesn't go out as much is because, there were 2 Conductors trained to work it and both were promoted.
It runs 7 cars, it was originally used for the A-line, but three cars were bad, they use them for parts. It does have route destination sign but however the software set up in there is only for the A-line, so at times ythe C/R may have to overide it to make announcements.
Actually it only has 6 cars left. An original full length train was only 9 cars long. They run in 3 car units.
I was at Chambers St. (A)(C)(E) yesterday. When I entered the concourse I looked through the iron gates downstairs and saw the R-110A leaving going northbound. So they were running yesterday, I missed them by a couple of minutes !
Funny, following the 110 was another (C) train. I was hoping for an (A) so I could pass it and catch it at an express station. Maybe next time.
Bill "Newkirk"
It is generally agreed that with the opening of the Chrystie Street connection and the rerouting of the Brighton Line BMT trains unto the IND tracks (D line) and the introduction of the K line in the late 60's merged the BMT with the IND. (relettering the BMT lines). However, when did the N (now R line) run on the IND tracks in Queens from the turnout right before Queens Plaza. Wouldn't that be the time of the actual merger between the BMT and IND, although the BMT and IND lines did always merge (share the same station) at Stillwell Ave?
While actual physical mergers were created before 1967 (11th St. cut in 1955, Culver/SouthBrooklyn IND conection in 1954, Libert Ave. el/Fulton St. IND connection in 1956), the opening of Chrystie St. actually saw the official elimination of seperate designations for BMT, IRT and IND branches. IND/BMT lines became the "B" division, and the IRT became the "A" division.
(re: A / B Division)
Except you wouldn't think that at all from examining the "emergency services" signs you might see at the front of every platform. They do not say "A" or "B" division - they retain the original division names (i.e."IND Division").
(The TA removed them from subway maps in the late '70s in an attempt to display the entire system on maps as one unified entity.)
So I scratch my head and wonder if A / B division is used officially in the dispatching or monitoring of trains, and if so, why these emergency services signs don't do the same. Anyone know?
--Mark
"the BMT and IND lines did always merge (share the same station) at Stillwell Ave"
Actually, no. The Stillwell station is all former BMTs. The Culver, West End, and Brighton Lines are all BMTs. The Culver (now the F) was the first to be connected to an IND (before then it had cut off from 4th Av, or was it West End?) and now that's the only way it goes. The Brighton (now the D, and up through Brighton Beach the Q) and West End (now the B) lines are BMTs that received IND letters with the Chrystie Street connection.
:)Andrew
1955, is when the connection from the BMT 60th St Tunnel to the IND Queens Line took place, It was used Mon-Fri 6A-8PM by the Brighton Local. Used to take it all the time from my Aunts House in Rego Pk, back home to Brooklyn. Still changed at 57th for the Brighton Exp. It was strange seeing the old AB Standards back then being passed by R1-9s on the E & F
Actually, the BMT got letter assignments in 1960, when the R27's were put into service.
Yes, and then only on the Southern Division at first. The story goes that, "What's a Q/QB/QT?" was commonly heard when the R-27s first appeared on the Brighton line, even though those cars carried both the old BMT titles and the new "Broadway" designation on their route signs. A greater uproar ensued when the R-32s first arrived and began displacing the Triplexes, whose crowd-swallowing capabilities were nothing short of incredible. It was tough enough to find a seat on a crush-loaded Brighton express of Triplexes, but on the R-32s, fuhgedaboutit.
Of course, even that was nothing compared to the utter chaos and mass confusion generated when the Chrystie St. connection opened. Nobody knew anything initially, it seemed.
Of course, even that was nothing compared to the utter chaos and mass confusion generated when the Chrystie St. connection opened. Nobody knew anything initially, it seemed.
I remember the first day. The "D" flew from the Bronx to 7th Ave and then crawled all the way to DeKalb. Instead of being early for school (Brooklyn Tech), I was late by almost 2 hours. They normally would require late passes but they just told everyone coming in to go to class. They couldn't handle the paperwork load since almost everyone came in via mass transit !!
Was it an R-32 D train? The R-32s took over base service on the D when the connector opened. Not to mention the AA, plus they were assigned to the newly-minted B line.
I belive it was !!
If it was an R32 it should have been hard to miss, or later on forget, it. After all of those piles of junk on the Culver D, to all of a sudden get a Brightliner for the new Brighton D should have been memorable.
You'd still get an occasional R-1/9 D train after Chrystie St., but the R-32s held down the fort. I still remember vivdly the first time I saw an R-32 D train, at 34th St. on a Saturday afternoon in December of 1967. It glided in effortlessly on the local track (the express tracks were used only during rush hours then), "205th St. Concourse" backlit in green on the sides. We took it to 59th St. where the conductor announced, "The next stop on this train will be 125th St." I wanted to stay on it, having experienced my first CPW express joyride a few weeks earlier on Nov. 24th, but we had a bus to catch and there wasn't enough time. I watched as that train departed, and by the time the last car went past, it was flying.
What's more I have never understood why the BMT went to letters when some of them already had numbers, while the IRT got the numbers despite the fact that none of their low V's had any designated numbers showing on them.
Because when the city took over the private lines in 1940, the IND mentallity ruled. Keeping the BMT numbers would have meant changing the IND's letters once the full merger of the two systems began to take effect, and we couldn't have that.
The same sort of mentality lived on at least through the Chrystie St. connection period, when it was decided to send three Sixth Ave. lines to Coney Island and downplay the importance of the Broadway line for Brooklynites heading into Manhattan.
It made more sense to change the BMT from numbers to letters since it and the IND division shares the same dimensions. To a "casual passenger", they would appear to be merged. With the 60th St tunnel opening in 1955, the merge process actually began in earnest.
--Mark
They could have done it either way, really, but changing the IND would have meant re-designating the A through G trains with numbers between 6 and 13, since the BMT lower numbers already belonged to the Southern Division and the higher numbers were the Eastern Division routes.
Also, it would have kind of messed up Duke Ellington's song, though I guess if the IRT got the letter designations, the Broadway local would have been the `A' train, which still would have gotten close to the Cotton Club in Harlem.
When the R-10s ruled, the A train was indeed the "quickest way to get to Harlem." It's different now.
What's the quickest way to get to Harlem now?
Probably a tossup between the A, the 4, and the 5.:-)
The A. Avoid the East side IRT at all costs....too congested. The D suffers the problems all lines running through Dekalb suffer, and it has hippos.
"It was tough enough to find a seat...." What seat? Steve, if you could get on at Kings Highway, it was only to the last car of the Q train. We never even saw the seats. There was never any need to hold on to anything. It was so crush loaded that only Tokyo's professional pushers were missing. My biggest worry on every ride was will I be able to get off at Dekalb? This was every weekday, too. I still remember as a diminuitive high school freshman someone on the train shouting when the doors opened at Dekalb "Let the little guy out!"
I know. I mean that was when the West End and Brighton lines got IND letters, respectively the B and D, instead of the T and the Qs.
:)Andrew
I detest that tower so much! The way they dispatch and handle late trains is so bad.
During rush hours they hold B trains for up to 5 minutes at 145 St for a D train to come in, then all of the people cram already on to a packed train making the train up to crush capacity, I get on the D train at Bedford Pk Blvd. It stinks then at 125 more people get on, which brings the train to about 101%.
Then on the way back (Afternoon Rush Service on the MTA begins at 3:30 right?) my train was 10 minutes late. Then I thought since it was late and it is the afternoon rush, it would do the concourse express thing. I was wrong, my train was at crush capacity and it got worse. My train ran local, cause the B to Bedford did not go into affect.
I detest 145 Street Tower!
Christopher Rivera
The responsibility would fall on 59st master tower. I understand what you're saying about the delays. I went to a Yankee game back in August. I got on a D at 34st then waited at 145st for the B. I waited about 20 minutes as a few D trains came into the middle at 145st.Finally, a B shows up. Since a Yankee game was about a half hour from starting, the D should've ran local for the crowds. 145st tower just handles the B service when it terminates there.
I think the problem is related to having two different prioirties for the B. From Dekalb to 59th St the B gets higher priority then the D/Q but then it becomes a local (from a Supper Express Skip Dekalb) at 59th St.
They always hold the Q for a B coming down from 59th at 50th Street and they should.
Sound like a possible reason or should I stick to selling Bridges?
145 St. tower is abandoned. There is a man inside the 59 St.MT that works the end which controls 125 St. through 145 St.
This part of the "board" is one of the worst jobs for a tower operator in the system. But it is one of the very few spots in the system where a junior man can pick Sat/Sun off. I knew the guy who worked that part of the board for a pick just to get the weekends off. When the pick ended, he immediately took off to another tower with Wed/Thur off due to the high stress of that job.
I know the tower is abandoned. I was referring to the fact that a dispatcher is present when B service is terminating there.
There is now a dispatcher on duty for all 3 shifts Mon-Fri at 145 Street.
I trotted in thinking this thread
was about OUR 145th Street..
Curiousity kills.
You don't have a tower at 145 St. yours is at 137 and is only a part-time tower.
145th Street used to have a satellite tower many years ago at the south end of the south bound A line tracks, governing the A line crossovers south and north of the station, as well as the D line. Before the master towers went up in 1989, there were towers at 135 and 145 street, governed by separate TW/Os. These were full time towers. Today, all these towers are dismantled and replaced outright with the 59th Street master tower, with the exception of the Concourse Line. Part Time Satellites remain at Fordham, Tremont and 167 St. Bedford Park as well as 205Th are staffed full time. Their days are numbered.
Normally I pick up the kids at school on Monday, and am home by 3:00 p.m. That's how we handle the Monday/Tuesday alternate side of the street. But with lots of meetings in a short week, we sent the kids to after-school until 6:00 p.m. on Monday. When we can home, there were no spaces good on Tuesday.
We ended up driving around Windsor Terrace and Park Slope for 20 minutes this morning looking for SOMEPLACE to put the car (we ride the subway to work). The parking situation has gotten much, much worse in the past year or two (like traffic, subway service, housing prices, airline service, the cost and availability of energy, etc.) And, we are using the car less. The wife is half-ready to sell the car, even though it's usually my job to park it.
I think we'll keep it, as it is highly depreciated and thus cheap. But I wouldn't have bought it today.
Park at 238th... plenty to go 'round.
UMMM.. he doesn't live in the Bronx.
Peace,
ANDEE
Guess Wall Street ISN'T the only thing sinking these days..
alot of yous' sense of humors are also dwindling..
(Guess Wall Street ISN'T the only thing sinking these days..
alot of yous' sense of humors are also dwindling.)
I have a humorous outlook toward Wall Street these days. When the NASDAQ hits 1,500 (down 70 percent plus from a high of 5,100) I'll cheerfully point out that it is up 50 percent (from 1,000) in just three years, an outstanding return! It never really was worth 5,000 anyway -- that's just what some idiots were willing to pay. Kind of like the current theoretical price of my house.
Unlike some, I am grateful on Thanksgiving. About the only things that aren't better now than 40 or 50 years ago are the typical family circumstances of Amercian children (too bad, but doesn't affect me or my kids) and the subway ride from Brooklyn to Manhattan (thanks to the Manny B). Everything else is better, according to any number I can come up with.
My sense of humor is fine, if something is funny.
Peace,
ANDEE
Young DINKs (Double Income, No Kids) fleeing the high real estate prices and more severe lack of parking in Manhattan + Booming Economy = More people with more disposable income left over = More money available to them for spending on luxuries like automobiles (in NYC, it sure is a luxury) = More cars in the neighborhood = less parking available for everyone.
As Manhattan living (unless you're lucky enough to have rent-control/stabilization or willing to brave a bad neighborhood) grows out-of-reach for people with less than a six-figure income, and the outer boroughs lose their stigma, wealth begins to show itslef in Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Staten Island, Jersey City, Weehawken, etc. Even with all of the governmental regulation inherent in city life, the real estate market still functions following the rules of supply and demand.
Personal example: In 1998/1999 I lived in a modest 2 bedroom in Astoria. In 1999/2000, my wife and I moved into a 1 bedroom in Manhattan (an apartment opportunity sort of fell into our laps). The rent, moving from Atoria to Yorkville, and losing a bedroom, increased 85%. In 2000/2001, we decided to move back to Astoria (the main reason being I missed the extra living space). Many of my friends, who still won't even consider moving from Manhattan, thought we were nuts to give up a Mahnattan apartment in a decent, middle-class neighborhood with fairly good transportation. Anyway, the place we moved into, which was right around the corner from our old Astoria abode, cost 65% more than the previous Astoria apartment!! That's a 65% increase in one year -- in Astoria! The street parking for all 3 residences was and is nill. Needless to say, we don't own a car.
I guess the moral of the story might be: All of our free-maket Subtalkers take heart. The market works, at least in real estate. And in New York City, where people flood in from all over the country -- indeed, all over the world -- to seek their fortunes, no one group, be it ethnic or "native" New Yorkers, can lay claim to any one neighborhood. The make-up of neighborhoods in NYC changes so fast it's even hard to track. Right now, this Irish-German kid is a minority in Little Athens. Five years from now, maybe not so much.
Astoria provides a good one-fare commute Manhattan. It may be an older neighborhood but has always been seen as a safe stable community which is now being discovered by Manhattanites. Rents in Astoria reflect this new reality. The interesting part of this boom is that previously marginal "frontier" neighborhoods are enjoying a mild resurgence. In Brooklyn's Fort Greene rents are rising as folks that can't afford Manhattan or Brooklyn Heights rents move in. In turn many people that can't afford Fort Greene's new higher rents are now moving to East New York. Larry's Windsor Terrace is getting the spillover from Park Slope. The new residents have more money and can afford cars, even if parking is a nightmare.
All this is good for the city even if some are being priced out of their long-time neighborhoods. But this latest economic boom is slowing down as all do. Will these urban "frontier" neighborhoods be the first to fall back if we have a recession??
On Staten Island we are getting people who have made a killing selling their Brooklyn houses and first time buyers priced out of Brooklyn and Queens. Hence the disparity in new construction between mini-mansions and semi-attached homes on S.I. (All houses constructed S.I. have off-street parking, but not all have garages.)
(The new residents have more money and can afford cars, even if parking is a nightmare.)
I'd say age is a more likely factor. Old people (whose children moved to the suburbs 40 or 50 years ago) without cars are being replaced by young families with cars. Another old lady on our block passed away last week. That's be a car or two before long. Another observation -- college-educated, non-Brooklyn natives working in Manhattan tend to have one car (they ride the subway to work). Those who grew up in the neighborhood are more likely to have two.
(All this is good for the city even if some are being priced out of their long-time neighborhoods. But this latest economic boom is
slowing down as all do. Will these urban "frontier" neighborhoods be the first to fall back if we have a recession??)
None of them fell back in the last recession. I think evidence supports the two wave theory. The wave of wealth spilling out of Manhattan moves forward in booms, then stops in recessions, but does not go backward. The wave of decline as housing hits 50 years old and is passed down moves forward in recessions, then stops in booms. I'd say Marine Park and older suburbs in Nassau County (not primo ones like Garden City, but the south shore) have more to fear in the next recession than Fort Greene and Sunset Park.
Of course, most metro areas only have ONE wave -- the decline wave. So at least we can be grateful for that.
BTW, the census bureau estimated the city's 1997 poverty rate at 22 percent, up from 19.3 percent in the 1990 census. There were three strong economic years from 1997 to 2000, so my guess is the next census will show we ended up right where we started citywide. The peak to peak change in neighborhoods will show which way things are going.
Regarding your 50 year old housing theory. Don't you think it's more of a combination of housing age, housing type and neighborhood that determines decline. A 60 year old attached frame house in a rundown area is not very marketable, and thus will sell cheap. A 60 year old detached one or two family house in Windsor Terrace, Whitestone or New Dorp is marketable. Look at bay Ridge, most of the houses there are 60+ years old and still command top dollar.
The 1999 census estimates only a 1.4% increase in total NYC population (to 7,428,162) from 1990 to 1999. It seems like the city has grown more than that. By borough; Staten Isl +9.1%, Manhattan +4.3%, Queens +2.5%, Brooklyn -1.4%, Bronx -0.8%. Manhattan accounted for 61% of the NYC population increase; Queens 46.4%, Staten Isl 32.5%.
The 1999 census estimates only a 1.4% increase in total NYC population (to 7,428,162) from 1990 to 1999. It seems like the city has grown more than that. By borough; Staten Isl +9.1%, Manhattan +4.3%, Queens +2.5%, Brooklyn -1.4%, Bronx -0.8%. Manhattan accounted for 61% of the NYC population increase; Queens 46.4%, Staten Isl 32.5%.
Remember that the 1990-1999 period includes the bad years early in the decade when the city's population was declining or at best static. In addition to normal out-migration to the suburbs, tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of people who lost jobs in the recession moved elsewhere in the country in search of work. At the same time, the city's sky-high crime rate reduced in-migration and maybe even caused some residents to move away. If you looked instead at population growth figures for just the second half of the 1990's, they'd surely be much better. Of course, the 2000 Census figures also are going to reflect the "bad" situation as they go back to 1990.
Another thing that's sometimes overlooked is the fact that New York's boundaries are fixed. Unlike many cities outside the Northeast and Midwest, and even some in those regions, it cannot expand geographically through annexation.
I would prefer the NY consolidation act of 1897 be REPEALED so that there would be a City and County of New York, a City of Brooklyn and City of Long Island City.
Remove the Brooklyn consolidations of 1894 and 1896 so that the once proud Towns of Flatbush and Gravesend, et al could continue to exist.
And the Westchester annexation by the City and County of New York in 1895.
re factors influencing car ownership in Brooklyn
I'd say age is a more likely factor. Old people (whose children moved to the suburbs 40 or 50 years ago) without cars are being replaced by young families with cars. Another old lady on our block
passed away last week. That's be a car or two before long. Another observation -- college-educated, non-Brooklyn natives working in Manhattan tend to have one car (they ride the subway to work). Those who grew up in the neighborhood are more likely to have two.
One thing I'd be interested in knowing is the number of people who live in the better outer-borough neighborhoods yet reverse-commute to the suburbs. I'll bet there's more of those people than one might expect, although of course their numbers are dwarfed by suburbanites commuting into the city. Not everyone is enamored of the suburban lifestyle, and people without school-age children might find the city's low property taxes attractive.
And it's highly likely that anyone commuting, say, from Park Slope to Morris County does so by car. That might be one explanation for the shortage of parking spaces in 'hoods such as yours.
A posting recently inquired or lamented why there wasn't the overhead clearance room to allow the LIRR doubledecker cars to go into the 63rd Street LIRR tunnel when it finally is completed for East Side Acess. This tunnel was built in days predating the design or construction of the doubledecker cars and actually extended during the construction of the 63rd street connection project on the far east end in LIC during construction of the bellmouth. As far as why engineers can't dig under as voiced by one poster, the answer is that the under river tubes are cast concrete construction and in order to raise the height one would have to violate the structural integrity of these tubes which no one is prepared to do. So there you have it.
While we were talking about clearances for the Bi-level cars and 63rd St we all forgot one thing. How about the tunnel and station clearances for Grand Central ?
A few years ago I found out that the C-1 Bi-levels (now out of service) were tested on Metro North to see if they wanted similar coaches. You guess it !, the Bi-levels couldn't clear the Park Ave. tunnels.
I don't know how they found out. I guess they used the converted LIRR coach "clearance feeler" car for this.
Bill "Newkirk"
The bi-levels cannot clear the tunnels to Grand Central, yet a Genesis Class locomotive can. I saw a few of them at the Sunnyside yards, and the locomotives appeared to be larger in height that the bi-levels. Can someone out there clear up the mystery and give the correct dimensions?
Perhaps it's the width, and the locomotives are somewhat more tapered than the bi-levels, allowing them to fit?
--Mark
Somewhat interesting article about Grafitti Culture, where it's been, where it's going. Can anyone identify the location of the R-32 in the picture w/the article?
GRAFITTI ARTICLE
Peace,
ANDEE
What a load of crap! Let's see, the writer is in favor of:
1. Demolishing other's property;
2. Theft of supplies;
3. Trespass.
I'd love to see what he would do if one of the scumbags he interviewed broke into his apartment, took his cash to buy paint, tagged up his bedroom, and then demolished his furniture just for the heck of it. Is it still "An bold act of rebelion" by some allienated youth? Each time I see an article from the the Voice, it reminds me why it's not worth the paper it's printed on.
subfan
I couldn't have said it better myself.
The same people who praise this vandalism and theft as art are the same people who live in a very well-protected tower of ivory.
And woe unto those who try to disturb that tower.
There is no such thing as a "grafitti culture". All it is is criminal activity, and no attempt to legitimize it by discussing it in any other context than criminal activity should be undertaken.
Reminds me of a Village Voice centerfold in the early 80s, which I still have, that has pictures of defaced subway cars using the "entire car" grafitti scheme (where a "tagger" uses the entire car as the "canvas").
I remember the caption well, in regards to the MTA's attempt to get rid of the grafitti:
There cars have since been defaced by the MTA.
--Mark
Another reason that the Village Voice is not even worthy of using to housebreak a puppy with bladder problems.
Someone should find a way to recycle old Village Voice's into some sort of graffiti remover.
Hey, Andee. Just thought I'd let you (and the minions) know that that picture of the R-32 amid a graffitified subway tunnel is technically NOT a subway tunnel at all, but a portion of the Pitkin Ave. Yard beneath a housing project. So it is a covered yard that is actually located at street level.
Inquiring minds wanted to know -- so now ya know. :-)
BMTman
Thank You.
Peace,
ANDEE
North Terminal
242 Street-Van
Cortlandt Pk, Bronx
Dyckman Street
Bronx
137 St-Broadway
Manhattan
96 St-Broadway
Manhattan
148 St-Lenox
Terminal, Manhattan
E 241 St-White
Plains Road, Bronx
E 238 St-White
Plains Road, Bronx
Gun Hill Road-
White Plains Rd
Dyre Avenue
Bronx
E 180 Street
Bronx
Woodlawn-
Jerome Av, Bronx
Pelham Bay Park
Bronx
E 177 St-Parkchester
Bronx
138 St-3 Av
Bronx
149 Street-
Grand Concourse
125 St-Lex Av
Manhattan
59 St-Lexington Av
Manhattan
Grand Central
Manhattan
Main Street
Flushing, Queens
Willets Point-
Shea Stadium, Queens
111 Street-
Corona, Queens
Special
Not In Service
South Terminal
South Ferry
Manhattan
New Lots Avenue
Brooklyn
Flatbush Avenue
Brooklyn
Utica Avenue
Brooklyn
Atlantic Avenue
Brooklyn
Bowling Green
Manhattan
Brooklyn Bridge
Manhattan
Grand Central
Manhattan
125 St-Lex Av
Manhattan
135 Street-Lenox Av
Manhattan
E 180 Street
Bronx
96 St-Broadway
Manhattan
34 St-Penn
Sta, Manhattan
Times Square
Manhattan
Chambers Street
Manhattan
Special
Not In Service
Route
7 Av-Broadway Local
7 Avenue Express
7 Avenue Express
Lexington Avenue Express
Lexington Avenue Express
Lexington Avenue Express
Lexington Avenue Express / Bronx Thru Express
Lexington Av Local / Pelham Local
Lexington Av Local / Pelham Express
Pelham Local
Flushing Local
Flushing Express*
<--Express - Local -->
<--Local - Express -->
Shuttle
Special
Not In Service
Notes and Observations
1. Queensboro Plaza, a station used as a terminal on the line when stations south of it are closed, is NOT on the signs.
2. For the Lenox Avenue Rehab, sitckers were placed on top of the route readings for the and lines, which are to the Bronx, to Brooklyn and vice versa. I do not remember which one covered which so I elected not to include them.
3. 111th Street IS on the sign, despite claims from others on this board that it does not exist (See posts in the archives for a thread with "111 Street" in the title.) I have photographic proof that this particular reading does exist on my Transit Pictures 15 page. (Follow the link below to get to my site.)
*. This reading appears on signs that have the "Helvetica" font. It doesn't appear on signs that use the "Aksidenz" font.
This information will be posted up on my web site soon.
Isn't Dyckman Street in Manhattan?
Good catch. Dyckman Street is in upper Manhattan, just before the 1/9 train enters the tunnel.
My mistake. I was into a groove, and typed "Bronx" instead of "Manhattan." It should be "Dyckman St Manhattan."
Great! Smaller bullets with black backgrounds. With these I can make my table signs better-- except that first I need to know how you shrink those gif's from the size they are on your page? I've been wanting to make even smaller (basefont size) bullets for years.
Can these be made with Corel Flow or one of the Microsoft programs? I made a bullet on Corel Flow and tried to upload it as a gif. but it didn't go through.
Where did you get the Aksidenz font from? Did you pay the ridiculous Berthold price, or can you get it (or the same thing under another name) somewhere else cheaper?
>how you shrink those gif's from the size they are on your page? I've been wanting to make even smaller (basefont size) bullets for years.
Never mind this question. Just found out-- it's the "HEIGHT" and "WIDTH" attributes of the IMG tag!
Ooooh, NEW TOY!
Main Street
Flushing, Queens Times Square,
ManhattanFlushing local
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!
[Where did you get the Aksidenz font from? Did you pay the ridiculous Berthold price, or can you get it (or the same thing under another name) somewhere else cheaper?]
I think I might have got it from a CD I have. The font's name is Express SSi. The problem is I CAN'T FIND IT!
However, I used that font co create a bullets font called "SLRM Filled." That's what I used to create the GIFs.
This is based on some previous posts on SubTalk, and what I found out yesterday. I saw a train on the Dyre line with the sign between the SS and S readings.
I've seen the green SS, the gray 5 and the yellow 6 signs on R26/28/29 cars before, but only in recent years and after GOH. I saw either the present color signs or the old, ugly, black-and-white, 1948-era signs. Of course since the 2 retained the same color from the 1967-era route color scheme and the 2 is my home line, I could have been looking at pre-1979 signs.
The only IRT route signs I ever saw prior to 1979 were the old white-on-black variety.
Until, oh, maybe five years ago or thereabouts, there was a light blue 3 bullet peeking through at 72nd Street. It was on the sign hanging above the northbound express track near the south end of the platform (I think it was the last sign on the platform).
There are two stairways for the Bowling Green station on Battery Place between Broadway and Greenwich Street that has a magenta and a black in a white background above the stairs. I think this is the last place where pre-79 fixed signage hangs in the subway, outside the Transit Museum.
I have a roll-sign from this era in my collection. I'll check it tonight and post my observations tomorrow.
Marc
Most people do not notice the gray 5 when one of the 4 or 5 cars with that sign is in the front, but many noticed the magenta 4 in the recent split 4 GO, since it used mostly 5 equipment for the south half.
you forgot 4 lexington avenue local
As I said, they are now on my web site. Just click on the picture below and it'll take you there.
The link gives you a choice of Interior View and Exterior View. Both pages work best with Microsoft Internet Explorer, as Netscape puts in a horizontal scroll bar when there is no need for one.
The interface for the linked page is a little crude, but it'll do for now until I rebuild the entire site.
great job!
Thanks.
I like it! It's similar to the BMT standard signs Joe Korman has on his website.
Yep, another Thanksgiving Day is almost upon us, a day on which we're supposed to give thanks. Bah! Thanksgiving Day is the most inconvenient of all holidays; it's too close to Christmas, requires a lot of difficult and costly last-minute travel, and turkey is one of the most overrated of all foods. Oh, and let's not forget that it is a legacy of the Pilgrims, who were not so much brave pioneers as a bunch of raving lunatics.
Anyway, in keeping with the "spirit" of the holiday, here's my list of things and people that I'm NOT thankful for:
The Second Avenue Subway fiasco
The LIRR
Upper West Side limousine liberals
Senator Hillary
People who whine incessantly about the demolition of old Penn Station
New Yorkers who think the world ends at the Hudson
Ronkonkoma commuters with the suit-covered anuses
1199
The New York Times
Unibody construction
Sheeplike stock market investors
Profiteering nonprofits
(Un-)Happy #%@&@$ Thanksgiving!
Please! Pay proper homage to our fearless Pilgrim forefathers (and mothers). They were saved from starvation by kindly Native Americans; of course they repaid the Indians by kindly slaughtering them, giving them diseases the Indians had no immunity to, and otherwise forever altering or ending their obviously inferior and pagan existence (I forgot to bring barf bags for those who need them - sorry). All Hail the Pilgrims!(not...)
Please! Pay proper homage to our fearless Pilgrim forefathers (and mothers). They were saved from starvation by kindly Native Americans; of course they repaid the Indians by kindly slaughtering them, giving them diseases the Indians had no immunity to, and otherwise forever altering or ending their obviously inferior and pagan existence (I forgot to bring barf bags for those who need them - sorry).
All Hail the Pilgrims!(not...)
Actually, the Pilgrims got along pretty well with the Indians, though the same can't be said for later settlers. As far as the disease issue is concerned, well, nobody knew about that at the time.
New Yorkers who think the world ends at the Hudson.
It does end at the Hudson, it starts up again at the Delaware though.
Unibody construction
What do you have against THAT?
It does end at the Hudson, it starts up again at the Delaware though.
What???! You can go to hell! New Jersey is the greatest state in the nation. Don't tell me we don't exist. That last time I counted we had 13 electoral votes. Where the heck do you think you get your gas from? You can not deny our existance! New Jersey will have its revenge! You will never scilence us! .... ..... ....... .. .... .. ... ...... ... .... .... ....... ......... .. ...... .... ...
Hey guys, nice job. Go at it, New York and New Jersey. Of course, New York lacks pride, many of us know that. They elect carpetbaggers and call their team New York when both football teams play in New Jersey. Why, however, doesn't NJ insist they call themselves the Jersey Giants and Jets. Because they think Jersey is a big slag heap and unworthy to carry the first name of their teams. Instead of railing against each other, rail against some of your own people and insitutions that cause your states all the embarrassment. Of course here in California our shirts aren't exactly clean. Our teams, save one, suck, and we don;t even have a pro football team anymore and we have more than our share of dorks as well including some of the people than run our teams.
Why, however, doesn't NJ insist they call themselves the Jersey Giants and Jets.
Because New Jersey would be a useless piece of shit (like it isn't anyway) if it wasn't for New York and Philadelphia.
We definitly need to charge a seperate Toll for vehicles displaying out of state tags or only just NY and PA tags. That'll quiet you, but even if it dosen't we'll just release cloud after cloud of acid into the air untill your lungs dissolve.
That's why I'm not a Football fan, Fred. Our teams don't play here, so why should I partronize them. Screw them!
I'm a fan of the 3-B sports (Basketball, Baseball & Boxing). The latter of course leaves much to be desired, lately...
BMTman
Hey BMT, maybe we are starting to see things alike. That's my feeling as well. I loved the Raiders when they played in LA but when they left town, well the hell with them. My wife loves sthe Dolphins and had been after me for years to switch to them. I did last year and I proudly wore my Dolphins shirt and cap on my six-and-a-half mile run this morning. But you should caution Pork, he seems to have a deep dislike for New Jersey. It doesn't seem that the state is that bad. Is it?
...Pork, he seems to have a deep dislike for New Jersey. It doesn't seem that the state is that bad. Is it?
Not at all. South of Rancocas Creek (Burlington County), NJ is fine, thank you.
The air and groundwater have problems, especially in the area from New Brunswick on north and east towards NYC. Just blame all those chemical-happy industry types. Try breathing the VISIBLE air in and around Elizabeth, Rahway, Linden (refinery's there) &c. The smell is awful; I don't know how people tolerate it.
How many super-fund sites are yet to be discovered in NJ, I wonder.
wayne
ps my Aunt Pearl who nevr smoked a butt in her life was killed by lung cancer at age 62 she lived most of her adult life in Middlesex County.
>>>How many super-fund sites are yet to be discovered in NJ, I wonder<<<
I have always believed that someday someone is going to drop a match in a sewer somewhere in NJ "the garbage state" and the whole state is going to explode.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why do the people let the powerful interests get away with that kind of crap? A woman who never smoked in her life and at 62 dies of lung cancer as one of our colleagues intoned smells very fishy to me. That shouldn't have happened unless there was major pollution and toxic garbage that got into the air. When I visited my relatives in Old Bridge New Jersey it looked green and clean to me, but I guess that doesn't apply to other parts of the state. It's up to the people in Jersey to make matters into their own hands and get those bought and paid for politicians who allow this shit to happen.
Well until that happens at least New Jersey can say it never had a river catch fire ::ahemClevelandahem::
The number of superfund sites won't increase much because they'll just start doing it one county at a time.
Unibody construction
What do you have against THAT?
That was one of my rants from a few weeks ago. Motor vehicles with unibody construction have to be junked after sustaining even very minor damage, while you could smash the dickens out of old body-on-frame vehicles and still fix them.
By the way, I forgot to add something to my Thanksgiving hate list:
Anencephalic City Council members.
Sure, you can smash the dickens out of a body on frame car, too bad that you would be smashed right along with it. I think you would be more thankful of unibody construction after you discover that it'll protect you better in a crash. It's way more rigid than ancient body on frame.
It's way more rigid than ancient body on frame.
Actually, it's not more rigid, but it deforms in a controlled fashion, protecting the occupants. So yes, from a safety standpoint I'll take a unibody any day. (Spoken as the survivor of a couple of horrendous crashes over the years - if it hadn't been for seat belts and unibody construction I wouldn't be here now posting.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is there anything that doesn't upset you?
Forgive my ignorance as I live west of the Hudson. What is the reference to "1199"? The only significance I can attach to it is that some Las Vegas slot machine's jackpots are 1,199 dollars, to avoid the Federal reporting requirement, which kicks in at 1,200 dollars.
Local 1199 is the NY hospital workers union.
What is wrong with you? Penn Station was a NATIONAL TREASURE and they just dumped in the Meddowlands. Every historical minded American should write Senator Hillary and force her to devert 2nd Ave. subway money to rebuild The Late, Great Pennsylvania Station. A restored Penn Station will make an LIAR ride give you a feeling you can be truley thankful for. Maybe I sould write up this idea and post it with all the other fine editorials in the New York Times. They ran my other proposal to solicit an organization to invest in a venture to specially outfit a Chevy Sprint for travel accross the Great Waters to see if it was possibly for things to exist in the great void. My friend from the upper West Side offered to donate his limo for a space in the crew, but he had to sell it and move to Ronkonkoma when the stock market crashed.
PS: I am 110% serious about Penn Station. October 28th should be declared a day of National mourning.
Penn Station is gone. While I agree with you, it was a great ststion, let it rest in peace shall we?
Divert 2nd av. funds. that's a good one
What is wrong with you? Penn Station was a NATIONAL TREASURE and they just dumped in the Meddowlands. Every historical minded American should write Senator Hillary and force her to devert 2nd Ave. subway money to rebuild The Late, Great Pennsylvania Station.
I'm certainly not defending the demolition of the old Penn Station. It definitely was a tragic loss. But it's also been 35 years. That's time enough to stop whining.
Hillary will be lucky to get a stick of gum from Senator Lout. (Spelling Intentional)
I think Jersey Mike is being cute here. Ha, Ha.
BMTman
I agree wholeheartly with your view of the late, great, Pennsylvania Station. Since that heanous act, I REFUSE to get off of a train in NYC in the basement of a sports arena. I get off in Newark Penn and the the Hudson Tubes (PATH to you newcomers) to either HT or change a Pavonia for 33rd Street.
You mean change at Grove? Or do you change at the dark, half-open hole (Journal Square)?
I myself have only been in the non-origional part of Penn Station once, just to see what it was like. I might go back because I have no clue how the seperate LIAR section works.
Just curious why someone who lives in Jersey and never (or rarely) uses the LIRR insists on calling it the LIAR. I use the LIRR pretty frequently and have no real complaints.
Because when Pigs used the name "LIAR to NY Pig Station" I found it so funny, creative and cute that I vowed to from then on call the LIRR, the LIAR. Just like I call the electoral college the electrical college because of a line on the Simpsons. Every time I say LIAR its funny and cute and lets people who know the story of its creation get a little laugh. I am tempted to start refering to Conrail as Gonrail because of a photograph I once saw.
Lrt me add my 2 cents worth here. Aside from the 23 pounder who made the ultimate sacrafice for my family, let me praise three other turkeys.
First is the LIRR manager who, despite the fact that my train (3:14 PM to Ronkonkoma) was packed beyond capacity and several minutes late, saw fit to insure that the train would make the scheduled stop at the Hillside facility so that another hundred people could force their way onto the train.
Second was the turkey standing next to a door that wouldn't close at Wyandanch. He just stared into space instead of pulling it closed while the rest of us watched helplessly - unable to reach it.
Finally a special thanks to the turkey soaked with "Colt-45" who, at Deer Park, forced his way onto the train with his bicycle and drunk girlfriend - even before everyone wanting to detrain at Deer Park, had done so.
But to all of you who are definitely not turkeys, please enjoy the holiday safely....
I think Senator Hillary and Upper West Side liberals should've been at the very top of the list. Shame on those city residents who put her in!
Different strokes for different folks. Personally, I've always considered Thanksgiving my favorite holiday.
Just thought I'd let you all know.
Good article, here's a link.
1950 LIRR CRASH
Peace,
ANDEE
You're probably referring to the Nassau edition, but the Queens edition of NEWSDAY unfortunately does not have this article. That's the problem with multiple editions: a lot of time the letters to the editor refer to what must have been a very interesting article, only it wasn't in the Queens edition.
Of course, my NEWSDAY has the sporadic "In The Subways" column by Rey Sanchez (not the ex-Yankee). Over the years, various scribes have written this column, which has been appropriately critical.
However, all editions have those full-page laudatory ads for the LIRR with painfully obvious proclamations ("Service is our top priority"), or singing the virtues of the double-deckers, about which Queens commuters have little or no interest.
Oh well, at least I can check NEWSDAY's website.
It is on page A49 in the Queens edition and continues on p.A55
Article on the upcoming Local 100 elections, some interesting stuff about Quill too.
NEW DIRECTIONS
Peace,
ANDEE
So, Gil Rodriquez is out ... caught with his hand in the till.
Then GOD cures Willy of his medical afliction.
And Sonny Hall hands him his head on a plater for his interest in splitting the union.
I recomend that we all read this ... lots of meat in it incl. a photo of Roger Toussaint, the New Directions canidate.
He could prove to be a big problem for the MTA suits. A smart union leader who knows the detail is hard to push around or minipulate. It also looks like the Village Voice is implying that Willy was a Uncle Tom. I think we're going to like Roger, but the riding public as well as the TA may not.
BTW, Do any of our T/O friends know New Directions T/O Tom Schermerhorn ? Just curious what kind of guy he is.
Mr t__:^)
[BTW, Do any of our T/O friends know New Directions T/O Tom Schermerhorn ? Just curious what kind of guy he is.]
BTW, is he related to Hoyt/Schermerhorn???
I couldn't resist....:-)
BMTman
Good!!! TOUGH NEW LABOR LEADERS ARE JUST WHAT AMERICA NEEDS TO PULL THE FLUSH HANDLE ON REAGANISM ONCE AND FOR ALL
Anybody know what station this is or was. It looked like there was no maintenance done at all. No wonder people were affraid to use the system back then!!
http://nycsubway.org/slides/r2730/r30-8569.jpg
That's Franklin Ave. The two trackways and one track gives it away.
-Hank
That station does indeed look like crap. Check out Forgotten-ny for pictures of the Franklin Shuttle before and after renovations, it looks great now.
I would like to know if anyone has the electronic desination reading signs for the R142 & R142A cars, if so, please post it on subtalk.
Thanks
Those signs can say anything, there is a computer running Windows ME with special software to help the TO do design any signs he wishes. Obviously there is a save function, so over a time the list of choises grows.
Arti
They use Windows ME?
I thought they were still running NT 4.0 or at least they had 2000.
They use NT 4.0 service pak 3
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry it's Windows 2001. I hope you didn't take my response to follo seriously. :-)
Arti
Now if you would have said OS/2, we would have all believed you :)
--Mark
The folks at the Big Dig in Boston have just updated their photo gallery.
You can see the MBTA/Amtrak approaches to South Station in pictures 3, 4, 5, and 15 (note the catenary towers). In pictures 8 and 10 you can see the MBTA approaches to North Station. And in picture 11, you can see the Green Line elevated structure as it decends from North Station to Haymarket.
Thank you for the link, Todd. Which brings up a good question; is the North Station Superstation still set to open in 2001? If so, about when? Or have the big dig delays delayed this project further? -Nick
Here's the latest on the Superstation from the MBTA Web site:
The MBTA would like to thank our North Station commuters for their patience and cooperation during the North Station construction
project. The MBTA and its North Station Superstation Project Contractor, Modern Continental/Obayashi, have been working
aggressively to complete the necessary construction and improvements on North Station.
The anticipated opening of the new headhouse at Causeway Street and Canal Street, which will provide access and egress to the Orange Line platform, is February of 2001.
The Superstation contract and the completion of two future construction contracts will provide a large underground station with shared platforms between Orange and Green Lines and is designed to facilitate easy transfers between light rail, rapid transit, commuter rail and the Fleet Center.
Last I heard, a realistic full opening is 2004. At that time, the Green Line will be temporarily cut back to North Station while the el between Haymarket and the Charles River is demolished; the new track will leave North Station underground, and rise to el level just south of the Charles River, and cross using the existing bridge.
hmm, very interesting. If the full opening won't realistically occur until 2004, who knows what will occur in a few months from now. -Nick
The February opening will just be a new passenger entrance to the Orange Line station, and presumably a re-opening of the free transfer between the Green & Orange Lines.
There will be no change to train service.
Please post the best locations for taking pictures of Amtrak trains between New Carrolton and Union Station. Also, can anyone confirm you can get to the platforms with no questions asked by going through Gate A at Union Station?
Thanks, in advance.
The best one is Landover Metro station. Good view to take pictures.
About Union Station, better not to do that, especially during Thanksgiving holidays. Amtrak police are heavily patrolling around that area.
Chaohwa
OK then. Where at Landover Station? Also, how fast is that train going to whiz by at? It is easier to take pictures of a stopped train than a moving one. And, when will it pass by?
Landover Metro Station is on the Orange Line, which is the first stop from New Carrollton. You will see the tracks clearly on the platform.
Amtrak's train speed around Landover is not pretty fast, but you need a camera to have a shutter less than 1/500 sec. It is easier to take pictures when a train stops, but Metroliners 228 and 229 do not stop at New Carrollton.
Metroliner 228 departs from Washington at 7:50AM, and Metroliner 229 arrives at Washington at 3:14PM. Since it takes 10 minutes to travel between Washington and New Carrollton, you need to be at Landover around 7:59AM or 3:04PM.
Also, be sure to take a look at Amtrak's website to check it is canceled or not.
Chaohwa
BTW, at Landover station, I take all my pictures from the platform. Usually I use 1/500 sec to take pictures, and it is good enough.
Chaohwa
I never had any problems taking pictures at Union Station, I usually go in at a MARC entrance, and walk over. I guess when i move to Virginia next month, I will go to Landover to take pictures also
I don't think it will be. According to Amtrak, its sold out of coach seats. Unless something goes wrong on the northbound trip, 229 should run.
I don't know my shutter speed but I'll go and try my luck.
Besides the Metroliner runs today and tomorrow, are there any other confirmed times when Acela Express will replace the regular trainset, either on Metroliner or Acela Regional before December 11th? -Nick
Unfortunately, Metroliner 228 and 229 were canceled today. I don't know the reason. I stayed at Martin Aiport for more than an hour in the 20s but found no Acela Express.
Chaohwa
Do they run tomorrow? I noticed last week Amtrak took 228 and 229 of today's schedule.
I checked Amtrak's website. They do have the schedules of 228 and 229 on Thanksgiving day.
Chaohwa
Is sirt div. considered a high senority div. for T/O and station agents?
It's under separate rules. I don't know exactly how it works, but it's not technically TA, because there are STILL B&O employees. It IS managed by the NYCTA, however.
-Hank
thanks Hank B&O that goes back a ways
The SIRTOA has a different employee base than the NYCTA. The two systems do not interchange.
thanks for info.Zman there own R.R. might be good duty.
During the Subtalk Field Trip we talked to a conductor that had just come over from MetroNorth. SIR is more related to LIRR/MNRR since they follow a RR rule book and operate under RR style rules but it is not FRA.
T/O's are promoted from other road titles. They used to have whole bunch of road titles, Conductor, Trainman, Brakeman but when they stopped collecting fares on board all that remain are conductors and some old timer trainmen.
I've heard you can show up at their office and take the test for conductor or find out when it is. It is not a city exam and I think they require pervious RR experience. But this I am not sure of.
They also have a bunch of other titles but for station agent, there are only a handfull since it is only at St. George >G<. There is a Station Master and Asst. Station Master titles as well as dispatcher titles but I think you all have to get them from the inside.
They even have a small police force, on the field trip we ran into a young woman who was SIRT Police who rode a with us from Eltingville to St. George.
NYCT employees do notand can not work for SIRT. All staffing for SIRT is handled by SIRTOA. (Staten Island Rapid Transit Operatign Authority).
It's about 6:33PM, just about exactly fifty years ago to the minute when the terrible LIRR accident occurred above Metropolitan Avenue in Richmond Hill as express train #174 to Babylon crashed into the 6:09 train to Hempstead, killing 79 passengers.
I think it would be fitting if those who wished would remember those who died in their prayers and those who do not wish would be mindful of the fact that things are a lot safer now on the LIRR than they were in 1950.
wayne
Well said Wayne it seems unreal in 2000 that an accident of that size could happen.
I lived in New York then and was ten years old at the time. If memory serves me correctly, it took the Korean War off the front pages. It was a tragic accident.
Wasn t there another LIRR Fatal accident around that time
Wasn t there another LIRR Fatal accident around that time
There was a crash in Rockville Centre several months earlier, resulting in about 35 deaths.
Wasn t there another LIRR Fatal accident around that time Also 37 years ago JFK was killed
Could have been another one but I don't know for sure. I do remember the one mentioned in the post, though. As far as JFK being killed I believe everyone remembers where they were that day. It's stuck in all our minds. It really got to me. I admired Kennedy deeply as a young man. Yes, I was a Democrat then. His death really had a negative effect on most young men.
I was in first grade when JFK was assassinated. An announcement came over the PA (a live broadcast of a news correspondent, IIRC) at school, and our nun just clasped her hands. I can't remember if we were sent home early, but my mother says Walter Cronkite broke down on the evening news. Ironically, there was a John Kennedy in the other first grade class in my school; no relation.
I think such an accident on the LIRR today probably wouldn't happen due to the improvements (some of which were made right after 1950) in speed control and signalling. The cab signals they use today make such an accident unlikely. I don't think the LIRR has had a rear-ender since then. There WAS a minor bump at Floral Park in the 70's in which a diesel "kissed" the rear of M-1 #9621 but only managed to crack the bonnet and dent the anticlimber slightly.
wayne
Today's Newsday had an article on the 50th aniversary of this tragic and horrific crash.Included was a chilling photo of the rear car of the Babylon Express with its top sheared clean off by the front car of the Hempstead Local.Also mentioned in this article was the death of an lawyer who had just won a settlement for a family who lost a loved one in the Rockville Center crash 7 months earlier.When you do think about it and hear people complain about the service,just read that article and look at that picture and how bad it was when the Pennsey ran the system.(one more example of Pennsey mismanagement previous to this in local service is the H & M crash at Exchange Place in the early 1940's( 1941 or 42 I think)
I just got back home for Thanksgiving (I'll post a detailed trip report later. Please read it, its funny & informitave) and today I had to drive to an alumni event. I can drive and I have my classic own car, but I rarely drive because I would prefer not to, I have a classic car, driving's a pain and gas costs mucha money in my classic car. Well I got on the local (I-295) freeway c.10 AM and to my surprise I found it to be rather crowded for a mid-morning. I also noticed the excessive speed of the traffic flow. After Nj introduces the 65 limit in slected areas, most drivers figured this ment 70 everywhere. Today the flow of traffic was going 75-80 everywhere (even in 55 zones) and for much of my 10 mile trip I was being pressured by a school bus going 76-80mph (I was restrianing myself to 75). I seems that today all our roads are over crowded and everyone has lost a sence of the speed limit. No wonder hi-speed rail won't catch on when you can get an average speed of 70mph driving your car.
If you think NJ is bad, come out here to Lawn Guy Land where the speed limit is three digits and road rage comes by the yard. If you are doing less than 65 the maniacs attempt to run you off the road. God forbid you try and challenge them; that's why I carry the Club right next to me I have had to draw it twice but I have never used it. PLUS some of these creeps drink 'n' drive too. It almost seems that there are more cars than people. LI has the worst traffic anywhere on earth. Try driving the BQE at 7:30AM from the Long Island Expwy south to one of the bridges. UGH! PHOOOOEY! Indescribable torture. And this is day in, day out.
wayne
Long Island is the worst. Especially in northern Nassau county. Traffic lights that don't move traffic along. A Boulevard (25a) that is more like a parking lot at anytime on a weekday. Rude drivers that honk their horns thinking it will make them move faster. And yuppies on cell phones that are oblivious as to what's going on around them. Did I mention SUV's that terrorize everyone else on the road?
Believe me when i say you can sit at a traffic light for an entire pattern change and no horns will sound....or if there is a lane closed ahead no horns...in fact very few horns are sounded and those are mostly from out of staters mostly from N.Y or Calif. N.J. etc, yes Oregon is a quiet city when it comes to horn blowing,but cell phone use and suv's and pickups that think they are eighteen wheelers are all over,and bmw's here think they own the road cutting in and out of traffic no signals they have a high accident rate here.
THEY'RE NOT YUPPIES!!!
If they were yuppies, they wouldn't be living in the suburbs.
Try drivin on Maui, where most roads are 2 lanes, speed limit 45 MPH, traffic now as bad as main land, Police do not know how to clear a accident, that takes 5 hours to clear, and sometimes no alternate route. Oh Locals think that a directional signal is optional, or will stop on the Highway to let someone in from a side road or make a left turn. And 2.30 for 87 octane gas. Some of the reasons for living in paradise, only 31 more days and I am out of here. By the way has anyone drove in New Hampshire, where the signs marking the entrance to the freeways are AFTER the entrance?
Death Race, 2000 came true I'll do all my driving in Syracuse, thank you. That's why RAIL is so inportant for downstate.
Took an N21 from Great Neck to Glen Cove this afternoon. Took 1 hour. Northern Blvd clogged with cars. Just too many cars!!
Sounds like a normal day in Atlanta, except you need to add people changing lanes all the time..
I went out to photograph the East line today, and most of my pictures turned out like crap, but the good ones I'll send to Dave to put on the Atlanta page once I have time. My el cheapo digital camrea really sucks, I got it for only $70, so that's probably why the pictures turned out the way they did.
Anyway, I don't ride MARTA on a regular basis anymore because for this semester and the next one because I'm going to a school outside of Atlanta. Also, I never rode the East-West line on a regular basis anyway. Some interesting things I noted:
1. MARTA is finally replacing the rollsigns and flipdot signs with cool looking electronic ones. They're nice and bright (yellow with a black background), so people have no excuse as to which train it is. Another neat thing about them is that every sign, including the back one and the ones in between cars, show the destination. The front and back one also disply the train number.
2. I finally saw one of the new cars MARTA bought. It was in the Avondale yard. It was just one unmarried car, and I noticed that there are windows so you can see in between cars, a la R142. I like that. Also, the new cars will have rubber floors, whichs is a lot better than stinky carpet.
3. There were ads in every car telling everyone about the new station openings, which will be Dec. 16. They also showed new bus routes that will serve the stations and a new pay parking system, which will speed up leaving the stations. All this info is also here. The pay parking system sounds pretty neat.
4. The service on the east-west line was pretty bad today. The first train I got on at Kensington had mechainical problems so it was put OOS at Avondale. Also the headways were all screwy as well. Sometimes were was a 1-2 minute headway, other times a 5-8 minute one. At King Memorial on the eastbound side, there was a les than 30 second gap between two trains. One train cleared the station and another just started to enter. The trains were less than 600 ft. apart! Too bad that on the westbound side, they had to wait 15 minutes for a train. I noticed that there were a lot of OOS trains skipping stations, wonder if that had anything to do with anything.
5. MARTA stations are way too dimly lit to take good pictures. If you use a flash, it'll reflect off the train and the floor and make the picture too bright. At the rate I'm going, it'll take forever to photogaph all the stations. Maybe I'll buy a better camera then.
Finally, at East Lake, I found myself all alone on my side of the platform at one point. I decided I wanted to do something I've always been tempted to do: jump down on the tracks and jump back up. I was about to do it, when I found out I wasn't alone, and worse it was a MARTA cop. Oops. Good thing I didn't do it two seconds earlier, or I'd be in jail right now!
How high from the roadbed are the platforms? Would it be a difficult jump to get back on if you had jumped down?
It's not high at all, maybe 4 or 5 ft. That's why I've always wanted to do it. Before anyone asks, I know it's an incredibly stupid thing to do, as well as illegal, but that roadbed is like, "Cmon, it's just a few feet down, it'll just be for a second." I'd wait till right after a train has left, just so I would have plenty of time. Also, I'd do it at station where the roadbed is gravel with concrete ties, just so I wouldn't trip over some complicated looking concrete roadbed. An outside station, too, so I can see from a distance if a train is coming. Maybe if I do it, I'll take a picture down there just to show everyone I did it.
Jumping to the roadbed is dangerous and illegal.
Railroads have a slogan which applies:
Always expect a train in any direction, on any track , at any time.
I have a slogan which also applies:
Only chickens play chicken with a train.
Also- think of the train operator-- you may so traumatize them and ruin their career. ALso think of those around who may seem the mess on the tracks and may face 3-4 hour delays due to your foolery.Also- someone facing the wait may be on their way to the hospital to see a dying loved one who may pass away during that time.
Never, never, never go to the tracks for pictures. If you drop something, go to the station agent and we'll call for a track worker.
Please-- *never* jump off the platforms. Here's an Amtrak example using NYCT stations only for distance reference.
Let's assume you were at the North end of 42nd/8th and a train was starting to enter(and not stop) the South end of 23rd/8th. You have a radio and announce hit the brakes and then you jump. The train would, even with full emergency brakes hit the person at 42nd/8th--as distance of one mile!
Ask yourself- is a picture worht you life or worht losing limbs?
The train would, even with full emergency brakes hit the person at 42nd/8th--as distance of one mile!
I think your estimate of stopping distance is off by an order of magnitude. Let's assume a train speed of 48 mph and an emergency braking rate of 3 mph/sec.
1. It will take 48 mph ÷ 3 mph/sec = 16 seconds.
2. It will take 0.5 x 3 mph/sec x 1.47 ft/sec/mph x 16 sec x 16 sec = 564.48 feet to stop.
3. It is still incredibly dangerous and stupid for civilians to be on the track.
I was using Amtrak and not the subway. Amtrak hits speeds of 100mph and greater. I know the subway is not designed for such speed. I was only using that example for distance--20 blocks is one mile.
I didn't have problems with flash in the MARTA when I was there in August. Click here to view my photos.
Lucky. Some of your angles are the same as what I photographed. A few weeks ago I tried photographing the North line, it was a sunny day, and I figured that it would be plenty of light. Well, it turned out to be TOO much light, because all the light reflected of the trains and platforms, making my pictures look bad. Cloudy days seem to work the best for me (yesterday was sunny). The Buckhead station angle you got with the Atlanta Financial Center in the background looks great, I tried doing that angle a few week ago, but the sun was in the way.
Check out my photos, Dave already put them up. Let me know of any tips and tricks that might help me take better pictures. Also, the first Avondale picture, the train on the left was the train that was put out of service that I was on. The King Memorial picture, you can get a good view of the new destination displays.
* question how & where do you have proff you paid for your parking space? do you get a reciept because the towtruck nazis / denver boot patrols dont hesitate to wrongfully & falsely impound cars parked at marta stations!! maybe you can somehow enlighten me as to what rights you have there & do they have these denver boot bozos under some kind of control!! i do remember them well when i lived there!!
You are an idiot
To prove you paid for the spot, you get a receipt to use at the gate
You are a big idiot
Parking at MARTA stations is free. At the long term lots, you get a reciept when you enter and you don't pay anything if you stay for less than 24 hours. After that you pay $3/day.
At stations without long term parking, I guess they do the chalk on the tire thing or something else to see long you've been there.
Back when you had to pay for parking, you buy a token and put it into a board with a slot that coresponds to your space number.
Atlanta, especially Buckhead, has a booting problem. At one lot, I swear that half the cars were booted. The City Council is trying to solve that problem, mainly because the practice is unregulated and booters are/were charging well over $100 to unboot the cars.
Yesterday, while taking PATCO home, I saw a the type of person that NIMBY's use to justify their positions. While buying my ticket I heard the raised voice of a lady complaining loudly to a PATCO employee. She had a small child in a stroller with her. She did not look very well off and was claiming loudly that the machine had only given her 30 cents change for her dollar. She called the PATCO help line and a guy came out. After berating him for a few minutes about how she works for her money she got him to accept a 1.10 payment and he sent her through the gates. The employee then got on a phone and called some main office to get them to send a worker out to the HADDONFIELD station (Oh no! She's comming to my town!) to let her out. He told the superviser (or whoever) that he had tried the machine and it had worked fine for him and w/o directly defaming the lady he made some more cynical remarks about the validity of her claim and other people like "that". Anyway I got off at Haddonfield and instead of waiting for the PATCO employee to let her out, she just ducked the turnstyle. At this point she had wasted the time of 2 PATCo employes and I was very tempted to call the police and report her as a fare evader and/or directing the attention of everyone else in the station in her direction, but at that point I just wanted to get home. It never ceases to amaze me that vending machines rip off the poor much more frequently than the non-poor.
Interesting rant, but I don't quite see the connection to the NIMBY issue. If you mean that people in Haddonfield are trying to keep people like that out, well, she probably lives there already.
Sounds like a reference to the generalized fear that the existence of public transportation in places where it does not yet exist will let "them" in, with the attendant increase in crime, etc.
So how do the PATCO fare system and machines work? She said the machine had only given her 30 cents change for her dollar. What was supposed to happen?
- Lyle Goldman
Some farecard machines give change, but there are also dollar change machines. Presumably the woman put a dollar into one of these and got 30 cents in change.
Or so she claimed. Seems like an awfully slow way to make a buck.
I went over to Princeton Junction station this morning to see Amtrak's Thanksgiving special train #3082. It went through right on time at 10:41 with an AEM-7 pulling 5 MARC coaches bracketed by one Amtrak car on each end.
Bob
amtrack is using borrowed equipment to help fill in extra trains. they had notices about that in penn station.
When it reached Martin Airport this morning, I was surprised that this train is hauled by an Amtrak AEM7, instead of a MARC AEM7.
Chaohwa
I also had hoped to see a MARC motor hauling the train.
I have seen MARC engines in the past hauling AMTRAK trains on after Thanksgiving Sunday......With any luck this Thanksgiving Sunday, I'll go from WTC to Newark to ride the PCC's then take NJT to Trenton to observe the corridor. Look for 3 NJT trainsets of electric cars which will make one round trip each from NYP to WASH. Any seasoned traveler would be well advised to avoid these trains. That's too long a ride from end to end.
Pity the poor saps who were stuck on this one for any longer than a "commuting" distance. MARC coaches are almost as uncomfortable as airline coaches (at least they were in 1994, the last time I rode MARC -- MARC definitely crammed in more rows than, say, NJT). IMHO, it would definitely be a drag riding any commuter coach on a "long distance" route. Uncomfortable seats, harsh fluorescent lighting, etc. Yuck!
Tomorrow some of us will turn on the "telly" and watch the Thanksgiving Day Parade. This parade as we know is hosted by Macy's and features all sorts of cartoon creatures come to life held skyward by helium (sp?) and navigated by countless people with ropes.
Enough already !! The time is ripe to update it by featuring a New York City subway car balloon inflated with helium. Oh the shocked or amused looks on those kiddies faces when the see floating down Broadway an enormous........
What subway car would you prefer to see as a balloon and why ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Turkey sandwich anyone ?
Hey Newkirk, do you really have to ask ME that? Why the Sea Beach, of course. But so as not to make you, BMT Man, Q, and my buddy Brighton Beach Bob howl, we can put an "N" on one end, and a "D" on the other and make all of us happy. BTW. that's a helluva idea. Let me know who made you think of it. Happy Thanksgiving.
How about A Triplex
That goes without saying. A Triplex with a #1 at one end, and a #4 at the other. Come to think of it, though, it would probably confuse most New Yorkers because they can't envision the Brighton and Sea Beach trains with anything but a D and an N. Still a good idea.
The time is ripe to update it by featuring a New York City subway car balloon inflated with helium. Oh the shocked or amused looks on those kiddies faces when the see floating down Broadway an enormous........
What subway car would you prefer to see as a balloon and why?
An R-32, of course. Why? Well, consider a family watching the parade on the idiot box or in person - Mom and Dad, both in their early thirties, and a couple of ankle biters of grade-school age. R-32's were in service before Mom and Dad were born, and probably will be around when the ankle biters have graduated from college and have children of their own. Gotta love that longevity.
Thinking of that makes me thing there should a children's cartoon show where the protagonist is a talking subway train.
They would have names like Redbird, Hippo, Rhino, Slanty and (insert nickname for other cars here). There would also be the museum cars in the Magical Train Yard (Coney Island) and the Magical Station (Court St). There would be stories about how poor old Redbird (who would have a gray mustache like the stereotypical elderly anthropomorphic train) has to evade "scrapping" at the hands of the mean new R-142 (and that would be the only car without a nickname, to emphasize its brutal coldness). For the season finale, the Redbird gets to go to retirement at a museum.
What do you think?
Actually Pork, I bought a video tape at the transit museum in Bklyn called "The Vanishing El" which featured a talking Third Av El train. (Narrating the trip from The Bronx to S.Ferry)
"Shining Time Subway Station" with George Carlin as the conductor? Interesting...
If you dub in "Rusty the Redbird" (to the tune of Frosty the Snowman), you'd have a hit for sure.
BTW, my high school was represented at the parade.
It is highly unlikely that you will ever see a subway car as a balloon. Corporate America sponsers balloons (QUIK bunny,Nestles, Mc Donalds, Disney etc.,) and they pay a HUGE price for the privlege of doing so. The TA is not likely to spend the money required. It would be a huge expense.
Peace,
ANDEE
(employee of Macys East, div of Federated Department Stores)
Maybe we can get Kawasaki or Bombadier to sponsor one.
That would be a good option, Lord knows they have the money required.
Peace,
ANDEE
Live from the Macy*s Thanksgiving Day Parade, yes, I am working today.
That would be a good option, Lord knows they have the money required.
Peace,
ANDEE
Live from the Macy*s Thanksgiving Day Parade, yes, I am working today.
BTW Happy Thanksgiving to you all!
>>>Live from the Macy*s Thanksgiving Day Parade, yes, I am working today. <<<
And tomorrow. [GAG]
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well if they won't have a subway car, at least they could have a Thomas The Tank Engine baloon since all their baloons are cartoon characters.
How 'bout Amtrak sponsering an ACELA balloon..zipping down Bway at 180 mph???
I'd like to see an R-68 balloon do that.:-)
While it wasn't a balloon, Amtrak sponsored EVERY marching band in Chicago's Jingle Elf Parade on Thanksgiving. Every band was preceded by a banner marked with AMTRAK and the new Amtrak logo, and every time a new band went by, the television announcers said that the band was "brought to the parade" by Amtrak. (I still don't know if they meant they were literally brought to Chicago by Amtrak trains or if Amtrak's sponsorship counts as bringing the bands to the parade.)
IMHO, this was a wise use of Amtrak's advertising money. They had almost as much exposure as Target/Marshall Fields who was sponsoring the parade overall. The announcers kept thanking Amtrak for sponsoring the marching band. All in all, I heard the word "Amtrak" on television more in two hours than I hear it in one year of television otherwise. And no Leno-esque cracks in sight. :^)
I actually tired GOING to the parade...NEVER EVER again....I ended up riding the F down to the Village, and sipping hot cocoa until it was time to ride back up to catch my tour bus home....
From an article in today's Times, about the lack of restroom breaks for many industrial workers:
Factory workers are not the only ones afflicted. The Norfolk Southern railway runs hundreds of locomotives without flush toilets, only a "dry hopper system" consisting of a stool lined with a plastic bag. Train operators recently showed their derision by hurling the used bags off moving trains, but Norfolk Southern moved to restore order by printing employee numbers on the bags, and keeping track of which employees brought them back full.
Heck, the engineers may think they have a tough job, but they're a lot better off than the poor schmucks who have to check bag numbers!
Ha! They're so full of s**t (literally)!!! Why couldn't they have chemically treated toilets like the rest of the railroads? Since the merger with Conrail, NS acquired a number of locomotives that do have flush toilets. Perhaps s**t throwing won't be as frequent over time.
-Stef
Just another example of how the top management at a company exploit their workers in the most demeaning way.
John --
Have you ever held a job?
I used to make an effort to read your posts, since I found your observations interesting. But lately, you seem more intent on posting your political views with very little to back them up. What gives?
Chuck
As long as the suits in their office buildings have humane toilets.....speaking of which: Jamaica Center. employee restroom at crew reporting center has no running water in sink to wash hands after sh...ing because the drain leaks and to fix the floor would have to be ripped up. Next availiable sink for employees is at the toilet downstairs on the J line, only about 1500 feet away! The E line does not have a toilet.
I just read a Hot Times where we were given a little cab tour. The guy said that most toilets were cleaned once a year, if lucky and they were emptied when the smell got too bad. he, of cource, works for the IC w/ like retention toilets. If you want the best cabs look to canada. Law requires them to have hot plates/microwaves, first aid kits, stretchers, arm rests, comfey seats and all kinds of other stuff
Here's the Quote from Hot Times:
"There is a door on the front bulkhead leading into the nose and the
toilet. Toilets are usually cleaned once a year or so in a good year.
The retention tanks are usually dumped when the odor is horrible
or the toilet is about to overflow. Toilet maintenance is very poor on
the railroads. There may be a toilet paper dispenser mounted in
the nose as well. BN came up with the idea to install a luggage
rack in the nose to store your grips in there when four or five guys
were stuffed into the cab. Oh ya, like I'm really going to put my grip
in there. Units built after 1976 have a small stairway, a little hallway where the cooler or refrigerator is located and then the door to the toilet. This allows one to stand up to enter the toilet as opposed to having to climb down into it."
Over the years (1981-1995) I've had the opportunity to ride in several locomotives on NS, CSX, and predecessor lines. I've never encountered conditions such as you and others have described; Seaboard/CSX was nearly as clean as my house.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I heard the new thunderbird RST-520 will be hitting the New York rails in late 2002. This new train will be faster and have better digitalized voices that announce stops.
[...new thunderbird RST-520 will be hitting the New York rails in late 2002...]
Thunderbird already HAS hit the New York rails - it's the beverage of choice of many station residents. :-)
There was a fleet of Thunderbirds which will forever be synonimous with the A line - the immortal R-10s.
what is "the new thunderbird RST-520"
I've updated my website which presents a short history and a
sightseeing tour of the "Hudson Tubes" (Hudson & Manhattan Railroad),
one of the earliest subways of the world, along with an image
gallery of the Tubes, past and present.
http://members.tripod.com/~communipaw/home.html
Although the Tubes are now called "PATH" and are operated by the Port
Authority of New York and New Jersey, their basic structure remains
as it was upon their opening. I'm still working on the Tubes Gallery
and am slowly also updating the text. So stop in once in a while for
changes.
Time to start another thread! Not about 142s, but about car assignments on the 4. In the wake of the Fordham Rd collision involving R-62s, one has to wonder how car assignments have been affected since those R-62s were shelved. I have found out that there has been one change implemented on the 4. At least one pair of R-33s was transferred from the 2/5 to the 4 on a permanent basis, it appears. 8838 and 8839 now wear orange stickers beneath their plates and work out of Jerome Maintenance Shop rather than 239th Street Yard.
Anyone notice any other cars on the 4 that don't normally belong there?
-Stef
Stef, I did hear that a set of Redbirds from the 2 line have transferred over to the 4. Keep a lookout on your end and I will keep a lookout on my end......
Train#1915Mike
Mike, some of us will be doing a Bronx tour tomorrow (as you already know), so we'll see what consists turns up on our trip.
I'll see you on Sunday. Have a Happy Thanksgiving in the meantime.
BMTman
I did see that train 2 weeks ago I was running beside it with a R 29 between Grand Central and 33 Street. If you must know the No.4 R 33 did win I was on my leader.
One Note for the weekend G.O with No Express nor 5 service they have been running some R 26/28/29 AND R 33's for the 125 Street to Utica Service.
After suffering the godawful half-day schedule that the "Almighty Pontifex Maximus" imposed on us high school students -
Hour-long periods, but at least for me, they were good ones
1. Biology - dissected a pickled earthworm
2. Band - Irish Tune from County Derry (voted the Most Recognizable Tune in the World), and The King Across the Water (MEAN, MEAN drum part!!!!!)
3. Study - yaaaaaaaawnnnnnn . . . zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz . . .
8. English - Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Odens.
--------------------
Anyway, afterwards, me and two friends took advantage of the second half of the day to ride the NYC subways. Now I have ridden on all of what we traveled, both with my father and on my own, but my friends were novices, and were very much interested in riding. We rode in the first car on every train.
Our trip started at the Cortlandt St. BMT station (actually, it started when we took the #92 bus, the Newark Subway, and the PATH WTC line) where we boarded an R-46 R train to DeKalb Ave. The entire row of lights on the left side was out, which gave the interior a cozy appearance. There were plenty of seats available, and the motorman had his cab door propped open slightly. The window was also unblocked, so you could see out the front.
We changed at DeKalb for the Q Brighton Express, an R-40 Slant which was moderately crowded - we had to stand for much of the trip. My friends were pretty taken by the scenery of the Brighton Line.
We got off at Brighton Beach and boarded a D train (R-68) to continue on to Stillwell Ave.
At Stillwell Ave, we crossed over to the B train (R-68A). We were the only ones in the car until Bay 50th St., where a group of rowdy teenage black girls got on. Being HS students ourselves, we knew this would mean an unpleasant ride. We were right. I don't know what was worse, the screaming and yelling or the foul language.
Anyway, at 36th Street, we changed for the M train (R-42), got off at 9th Street, went upstairs, got the F train (R-46) to Smith-9th, then got the G Crosstown Line (R-46).
There was a large number of cops on the G train platforms, as well as 3 officers who rode in our car from Carrol to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Is this the norm, or was their some sort of action or incident? The G train was pretty crowded, standees and all. I didn't think the G got that much usage.
We got off at Metropolitan Ave and changed to the L Canarsie line (R-42). We also stood on this train and got off at Myrtle Ave to get the M.
My friends noticed that we were on the M earlier. I explained that this was the other end of the line (I had also been pointing out our route on the map as we went along).
By this time, it was dusk and the Myrtle Ave-Broadway el was a sexy ride. I especially liked the merge with the J line at Myrtle Ave station. I saw and pointed out the structure which formerly contained the old Myrtle Ave el (MJ?) to downtown Brooklyn. When asked why it was done, I has hard-pressed for an answer . . .
We went over the Williamsburg Bridge and changed at Chambers Street for the #5 train. The thing that struck my friends were the redbirds - they loved em! We got off at Grand Central and got the #7 train to Times Square where we got a bus at the PABT back to Jersey.
So just to recap, we took these trains in the following order:
R, Q, D, B, M, F, G, L, M, 5, 7
-------
We got off the bus feeling tired but satisfied, agreeing that we would have to do this again real soon.
I think we'll do the IRT lines next time - the 2, 5, and 7 in particular, since the redbirds got high ratings!
Sounds like a terrific railfan journey...
As for the cops on the G, they were probably headed for the NYPD (Transit Bureau) District #30 office at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
One more for the redbirds.
The high-shool female bunch rings
rememberance of the dozen-some
11-year olds who turned the calm,
tranquil, and therapeutic interior
of a 1-line r62 (2nd car) into
a jungle gym between 181st and 137th
back on a certain Spring day.
In addition to the redbirds, my friends gave the R-46 and R-68/A high marks too. They didn't care much for the R-40/42, although they thought the slant front looked cool.
I have to admit that HS kids are terrible. The language is unappropriate, they set bad examples for other younger kids, they make a mess with their garbage (no home training)...etc.
In one of the banner pictures on the home page of nycsubway.org, there is a picture of a D Train of R-68 cars and a M Train of non-slanty R-40 cars on the Brighton line in Brighton Beach. However, it looks like a relatively recent picture, from long after the M Trains left the Brighton Line. When was this picture taken, and what was an M Train doing on the Brighton Line? (I don't know how many of you have seen this picture, since the banner changes more often than the Florida judges change their minds!)
- Lyle Goldman
The banner doesn't change, it's unique to each person and is loaded randomly with each download.
The train with the "D" sign is actually a "B" train; one of the middle cars still sported the "D" sign. If you look closely you'll see that the car with the "D" sign is not the front car.
we get hung up with the troubling people and conditions in our lives... find a quiet moment to reflect on the people and conditions that are the real blessings of your life... go gracefully through this day and everyday cherishing those things...
from Steve,Trish and Family
From aspiring transit buff Robbie, extremely tolerant spouse Lisa, who's glad to get us out of the house on weekends, and of course me.
The day after Thanksgiving isn't really the best day for railfanning, what with heavy shopper volume and enforcement of alternate-side rules (can't just park at any station), but with this year's lousy calender- no Jewish holidays or Veteran's Day off- we're hittin' the 'Q' tomorrow, and maybe the Newark Subway Saturday. This is about the sixth 'last time' we're riding the PCCs.
Enjoy, everybody!
This is about the sixth 'last time' we're riding the PCCs.
Friday's ERA trip will be my fourth 'last time' to ride them.
same to you.
3TM
same to you.
3TM
HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO YOU ALL.
BMTman
The tower north of New Lots Ave on the IRT Livonia line was demolished on Tuesday. One of the rooms similar to those erected between the tracks at the other stations on the Livonia line is supposed to take its place. If you look off to the side from a southbound train, you should be able to see the debris for a few days.
Its time to take the train over and see whats happening. Thanx 4 the info.
Train#1916Mike
I tried my luck again today to go to Martin Airport to see whether Acela Express was running on Metroliner 228.
But when I saw AEM7 923 haul Metroliner coaches as Metroliner 228, I realize today is not my day, either.
Chaohwa
I went to Frankford Junction (actually the Wheatsheaf Lane pedestrian bridge) for the same purpose and was also disappointed, but at least I saw a southbound (Metroliner 205?) pulled by an HHP-8.
Bob
When HHP-8 654 hauled Train 181 running through Martin Airport yesterday, I told my friend, "that's your consolation prize."
This is the first time my friend do an Amtrak fieldtrip. He wants Acela Express badly.
Chaohwa
Does this mean 229 is Metroliner Coaches as well?
You bet.
Chaohwa
Could somebody tell me for how long did the R62A ran on the #2 line, was it prior to the early 1990s when all the redbirds were finish with the GOH rebuilt subway cars program?
Uhmm.. I saw the r62A on the 2 in September 2000.
Which is highly unusual. The #2 has been equipped with R26/28/29/33 cars for as long as I've ridden the subway regularly (15 years).
There was a thread "R62A's on the 2!!"
back in Sometime September..
I saw it at TS/42 going North..
half of the consist was 2446-2450..
Saw that same train later in the day
back wearing its homeline 1 colors..
Self explanatory Title!
Regards,
Trevor
I Heard black, because in the earlier Chrystie plans, it was going to be retained for the weekend service to W.4th or 57th. (The 168th St service was going to be "BT") But then they decided to make all Wesr End trains "B".
ASTORIACONEY ISLANDT | BROADWAY EXP
What the MTA should have done when Chrystie Street opened was to keep the N as Broadway/Sea Beach express and the R as Broadway/Fourth Ave. local, but run the D as the Sixth Ave/West End express, keep the QB as the full-time Broadway/Brighton line, and run it as an express in Brookyln while the B ran Brighton local/Sixth Ave. express from 5:30 a.m. to 7 p.m. weekdays and a 57th-6th/Second Ave. shuttle at other times. That would have made way more sense than running the QJ on the Brighton line all day -- it should have been the alternate rush hour service on the West End, the way the `M' is today, and cut back to Broad or Chambers other times.
There still wouldn't have been a `T' train under this set-up, but the balance between the Broadway and Sixth Ave. lines for Brooklyn riders would have bben much better than the way things tured out.
ASTORIACONEY ISLANDT | BROADWAY EXP
You made my day!!!!!!!!!!
What criteria did the person/persons who made these choices use? Was the fact that 1967 was the height of the psychadelic drug craze contribute to the assortment of weird colors?
"Make the A....blue?"
"Far out"
"Let's make the AA pink so our socialist brothers on the upper west side can take pride in riding their subway line"
"Groovy.....pass the joint" ....
no two trains running together on any one line could be the same color I think.
The "T" train was never in existance when the city assigned each route a color in 1967. The weekend/late night West End shuttle did retain the "TT" designation into 1968 and was given the color blue.
Thank You Chris
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Happy Thanksgiving
www.transitalk.com
...but if were arround today, it would be yellow.
:)Andrew
Can someone tell me about the new trains that are running on the 2/3? I have been taking the same route for awhile and I just encountered one of these subway series 2000 things earlier this week. They are SO nice and clean (though that won't last long), and I don't remember hearing anything about them before.
thanks
It's a FAQ on this board. Here's all the info you'll probably need.
I was looking at my old 1964 LIRR system timetable today and noticed how many stations and services do not exist anymore.
One of the funny things was the service between Babylon & Montauk. They had train service as well as scheduled LIRR bus service called "road & rail" which was intertwined in the schedule with the train service. This wasn't track work bus service. The connection between bus service and train service to NYC was at Amityville(you would have thought Babylon huh?). The LIRR bus would stop at:
Amityville-Babylon-Bay Shore-Patchogue-Shirley then Mastic(two separate stops)-Center Moriches-East Moriches-Eastport-Speonk-Westhampton-Quogue-East Quogue-Hampton Bays-Southampton-Watermill-Bridgehampton-East Hampton-Amagansett-Montauk. The ride from Montauk to Amityville took 2 1/2 hours.
And look at all the stops that used to be made on the Ronkonkoma-Greenport Branch(Main Line):
Ronkonkoma-Holbrook-Holtsville-Medford-Yaphank-Manorville-Riverhead-Aquebogue-Jamesport-Laurel-Mattituck-Cutchogue-Peconic-Southold-Greenport.
On that single track that runs from Hicksville to Babylon, there used to be a station at South Farmingdale.
In the public LIRR schedule, they placed a freight map in the center of the timetable booklet! On top, there is a caption that says: "12 MINUTES FROM MIDTOWN MANHATTAN. Long Island Rail Road...the smooth, swift, sensible way from New York City to the World's Fair...and the safe, sure, simple route for freight to any Long Island destination. This is your main line from the mainland-serving America's biggest and best".
The freight map showed(there were no passenger timetables for the following services):
The Bay Ridge branch. It curved off from the Long Island City branch between Fresh Pond & Glendale. There were no stops along the route. At Bay Ridge, there was a car ferry that operated to Greenville,NJ.
There used to be a station on the Pt.Wash. branch called Corona between Elmhurst & World's Fair(later Shea Stadium)stations.
The Hempstead/West Hempstead connection. After W.Hempstead, service would continue on to Country Life Press and Meadow Brook. The Mineola-Country Life Press connection was also shown.
It's kind of weird that the LIRR would highlight freight services in a passenger timetable.
Zman, I've seen some timetables dating back to the turn-of-the 20th Century where the LIRR appeared to have made stops every few blocks almost like a rapid transit line (particularly within city-limits on routes like the Flatbush Ave. Branch and the old Greenpoint Line (part of the Bay Rige Branch).
I'm always learning something new and fascinating about the LIRR (with compliments to Bob Anderson's excellent reference site: www.lirrhistory.com).
BMTman
The LIRR "Road-N-Rail" bus service originally terminated its south shore route in Amityville, but by 1965 it was using Babylon as its western end point. They also used to have a route from Huntington out to Greenport as well.
The buses were actually owned and operated by Huntington Coach Corporation, under contract to LIRR. They had a fleet of GMC SDM5302 "suburban" style buses -- GM fishbowls with one door, underbody baggage compartments, reclining seats on platforms, and interior package racks and reading lights over the seats. They were numbered 367 through 375. Photos of them exist in "Steel Rails To The Sunrise". I've also custom-painted a 1/50th scale Corgi bus modelup as one of the LIRR buses.
I'm working the "split shift" on WCBS today, from home in Boston via the magic digitial phone line. It's nice to have my friends on SubTalk keeping me company!
Watching the Macy*s parade on TV this morning, I could almost visualize that subway car balloon suggested earlier this week...
I heard you around 9:48 AM. when I went out to pick up my holiday cakes. You sounded too warm to be in NYC. Enjoy your holiday !!!!!!!!
I also enjoyed a friendly voice on the radio Thanksgiving morning & suspected where the "weather center" actually was. Hope you had a good day.
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone have any ideas of local stops that should be express stops, or express stops that should be local stops?
23rd st on Lex (because I live nearby):-)
But seriously I'd say Columbus Circle on 7th avenue line )not really doable) and 14th Street on 6th Avenue.
Arti
14th & 6th should remain a local stop since there are enough "express" stops on the 6th Ave line already. Canal St on 8th Ave line can be a local station to speed up some things there.
Woodhaven Blvd on Queens IND should probably be an express stop being where Queens Blvd, L.I.E., Queens Center Mall, and Woodhaven Blvd merge along with high patronage. This would slow the express run from 71 St Continental to Roosevelt Ave though.
Also 74th St on the #7 with its transfers to the Queens IND has high patronage as well.
[14th & 6th should remain a local stop since there are enough "express" stops on the 6th Ave line already. ]
Wouldn't make virtually any difference speed wise. I have taken F out of W4 st Q leaving at the same time to see it leave the station at 34th st when F pulls in.
Arti
What is the "REASON" to make 14th and 6Ave an express top? What are the connections??
To PATH?? go up to 34th St one express stop away. Just to make 14th St on 6th Ave an express stop because it is an express stop on 8th, 7th, Broad and Lex??
NAH!!!
Plus, it would be impossible, as the express tracks are much deeper than the local ones. With 2 local trains serving it in the coming future, the station will have more than enough service as a local stop.
[Plus, it would be impossible, as the express tracks are much deeper than the local ones. ]
Didn't they make a provision for that during original construction.
Arti
I'm not sure how. The express tracks run under the Canarsie line, so a 59th St. Lexington Ave. situation arises. Long escalators would be necessary.
I mixed it up with 23rd Street station.
Arti
A provision to make 14th and 23rd and 6th into express stations *was* included in the design. I think 14th should be made into an express to allow for connections to:
1,2,3,9,L
So I wasn't incorrect after all. I looked at the IND station-by-station page and didn't see anything said about 14th Street express provision.
And I agree, it should be an exp stop.
Arti
I don't see how the station could be converted today without colossal expense. The express tracks are too deep.
That "collosal expense" would be far less than the expense to convert a typical local station to an express station, since the local tracks are where the platform would have to go.
I don't think any of the proposed conversions in this thread would be practical. So what?
Remember the good old days when the Lexington Ave express went 86th to 42nd. Then they did the lower level at 59th!! And that's 4 levels down (IIRC).
1 - Lex local
2 - BMT
3 - A crossover/under
4 - Lex express
But it would spoil the dash, and add an additional stop to the "so-so" IND 6th ave express. The stretch in the tubes between 34th and W4th is the only part of the 6th ave express, adding 14th street would ruin the meaning of "express", and also not be a convenient transfer with the express tracks fairly deep (that's why they are tubes). Exactly how deep is the 6th ave dash?
L train, M14 serving subwayless areas on Lower East Side, developing areas in Meatpacking District.
Arti
And it would ruin one of my favorite spots in the system, the 34-W4th dash. That dash is one of the fastest spots in the IND.
[That dash is one of the fastest spots in the IND. ]
You must be kidding, F and any of the expresses make that almost at the same time.
Arti
I have to disagree. The F takes a minute or two longer than the expresses, and doesn't attain the same speed. I have caught up to the F train I missed at W4th many times by hopping on an an uptown B,D,orQ and catching the F at 34th.
And I love that 6th ave dash! Taking that away by adding a stop right in the middle would not allow for too much speed.
The southbound express run is faster, since it's downhill. I keep meaning to take a southbound Q from 34th St., but haven't gotten around to it. The northbound run is OK; I took it a few times last month, once on a Q and once on a B.
Southbound is definately faster, because it is more downhill, but going uptown in the dash aint bad either, especially on a Q.
I just wonder how deep the express tracks are, since I don't see too many emergency exits in the dash.
But for me, nothing is sweeter than a southbound Q in the dash, then roaring into W4th.
I've heard the 6th Ave. express tracks are as much as 65-70 feet below street surface, as they run beneath the PATH tunnels for the most part. The 6th Ave. platform at W. 4th St. is four levels down.
Uh -- to the L and the 1/2/3/9.
14th & 6th should remain a local stop since there are enough "express" stops on the 6th Ave line already.
Local stations don't belong in the Central Business District.
The IND was right.
Chelsea can hardly be considered in the same breath as midtown or the financial district.
14th has a number of businesses located nearby, 23rd is a different story.
And Chelsea doesn't go that far southeast.
The F, L and 1/2/3/9 lines serve the area well enough. Last time I checked, this area was called Chelsea. It's too far west to be part of Grammercy Park. But I could be wrong.
I know this area well. My first job back in 1989 was making deliveries for a bagel resturaunt on Park Ave. South. It's still a big time shopping district, and it's also very residential. One of my regular customers was (believe it or not) Bernhard Geotz. I made dozens of deliveries to his apartment, but I never leton to him that I recognized who he was.
I hope you let him have his bagels for free. He's one guy you wouldn't want to ask for money!!!!
He was a nice guy who tipped well. I felt sorry for him. His apartment was almost like a zoo. He loves animals.
It's at the junction between GraPUS, (I got that from a columnist in the Sunday Times City section), The Village, Chelsea, and the old Meatpacking district.
Very farfetched. Gramercy has well defined boundaries.
Arti
It's only two blocks west of Union Square. That's what the US in GraPUS is for.
[It's only two blocks west of Union Square. That's what the US in GraPUS is for. ]
Actually Sout East of. These 2 areas are completely different in nature, so I don't see the reason to coin a new term for them.
Arti
Columbus Circle comes to mind as the obvious first choice. It would also be nice to see the Q train go all the way to Coney Island.
And since you didn't specify New York City only, I'll suggest the Berwyn stop on the CTA's Red Line become an express stop, while all the stops between Berwyn and Quincy/Wells become local-only stops (for purely objective reasons, of course!)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Chicago? I thought you moved to Boston. What happened?
- Lyle Goldman
I've been back in Chicago a little less than three months now... I couldn't find permanent housing in Boston, and I decided that I was better off back home in Chicago, anyway.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Berwyn was a much more popular stop in the olden when the old Edgewater Beach Hotel was still around. I can still remember the old stations signs which read "Berwyn - Edgewater Beach", and on older L maps, the station was marked as Edgewater Beach. Are those rusty old crossover switches at either end of the station still there? IIRC, they were put in so North Shore trains could stop there.
If both the Q and the D went to Coney Island, I would have W. 8th St. as a local stop, only.
do you mean that one of the trains would just skip W 8th, it would only save 30-40 seconds, and more people use W 8th then you think from all the High Rise apts. The need a elevator or escalator to get to the upper platforms anyway. Try running up those stairs on a 15-20 minute headway to try to make the train. Cardiac Station
The D runs on a 10 minute headway all day.
seems longer then 10 minutes after climbing those stairs. I know done it hundreds of times when visiting family in Brightwater
Houston Street on the 1/9 should be converted to an express stop given its heavy usage.
I know it's not feasible now, but Broadway on the Astoria el should have been made an express stop, rather than Astoria Blvd. That way, the use of the middle tracks in regular service on the Astoria line would have been logical. Here's why: First, with respect to the 2 ends of the line in Queens (QBP & Ditmars Blvd.), Broadway is more centrally located (at least till we get our LaGuardia extension). Second, only a scant few patrons trickle off at both 39th Ave. (most days, ZERO per car) and 36th Ave. (2 or 3 per car). Broadway is the first stop on the line (besides QBP) where you see a galloping hoard detraining. (I have often thought it would make sense to add stairs to the ends of the platforms at Broadwy -- they could be exit-only, or HEETs, so no fare-control would be required).
Perhaps the 'W' will attract patrons of Astoria Blvd. and Ditmars off the "local" 'N' trains -- that is, if 'W' actually does run express in Astoria.
Of course, everyone wishes the stop closest to their home was express, no? :o)
Ah! Finally, someone saying something that I've wondered about years ago as a kid. You are absolutely right, from the standpoint of the Astoria line as it is (without considering any potential extensions, which are extremely unlikely). Not only is Broadway at the center of the line and *most definitely* has a vastly larger ridership than 39th and 36th Avenues, but it is often the first stop (north of QBP) used by uptown N trains when they are running late (almost always during evening rush hour) and has to skip a few stops to even out the spacing between trains - making it a de facto express stop!
Of course, express service will never run on this line - not enough ridership (although it does not seem that way during rush hours :<).
Another thing about this station: I do believe this station does have an underpass, contrary to what is said on this website. IIRC, there is a passageway where you can walk around and behind the token booth, crossing from uptown to downtown and vice versa. It's open to the public and not a restricted area. I've seen people use it frequently during service disruptions/repair work - where passengers realize that the train going in their direction is not running and then cross to the other side of the station in order to catch the opposite train (and then later transfer back to the original direction at another station). If I am wrong about this, please let me know.
-turnstiles
To even suggest that the N train does not have enough ridership to justify express service is ridiculous.
When I lived in Astoria, and boarded the northbound N train at Lex(59th), at Midnight, I could NEVER even get a seat. Imagine what rush hour is like.
In fact. ALL trains servicing Astoria, Jackson Heights, and Corona, have serious problems with overcrowding. Yet, when I return to my old neighborhood, Ridgewood, via the M train, I usually have to share the car with only one or two people when I travel midday.
I now live in Forest Hills, and have noticed more and more people using the LIRR station. Why? Because during peak hours, "express" service is so poor, that you have to allow yourself over an hour to get from Continental to Midtown.
I don't blame people in Forest Hills for using the LIRR. They'd rather pay more for less overcrowding and a quicker ride to Midtown. This is why I think the outside LIRR main line tracks should be turned over to subway trains and connected to the 63rd St tunnel, allowing LIRR riders a nonstop ride from Jamaica to Penn Station and relieving the E and F trains. To avoid FRA regulations any tracks used by subway trains should have their connections to any tracks used by the LIRR.
Well, actually I'll eat some of my words here: the Astoria line does have a decent ridership. The Astoria line was my home line for many years, so I am quite familiar with the crowded platforms and trains. I hardly ever got a seat during my morning commutes (but was able to get seats at night).
However, express service may not be warranted as you could simply increase the number of trains on the line (local tracks) because the N train never really runs with a short headway. Yes, I've seen N trains backed up one after another, but this was due to delays on the earleir trains, not due to closely scheduled trains. Also, express service is difficult to run on this line for other reasons: relatively short line of only 6 stops; poor spacing of express stops at Astoria Blvd. and not at an earlier station; and that splitting N trains into expresses and locals that have to converge at QBP anyway could create a bottleneck.
All stations between QBP and Ditmars Blvd. on the Astoria el have crossunders. I have, on separtate occasions, crossed-under at 39th Ave. (Beebe), 36th Ave. (Washington), Broadway (in fact, during the Monday morning rush, I often enter using the Ditmars-bound turnstiles and cross-under to the Manhattan bound trains, in order to avoid pushing through the token-booth line there), 30th Ave. (Grand), Astoria Blvd., and Ditmars Blvd. I do not know why this site has incorrect information in this regard. I can only guess that the writer wrote the station-by-station guide at a time when crossunders on the Astoria Line were not possible at each of these stations. Crossunders are possible now at each Astoria el station.
Try telling that to my sister.:-) She always managed to live near a local stop when she was still a city dweller. OTOH, she's not a subway buff the way I am, and doesn't share my dislike of local trains.
Anyway, one station that comes to mind in terms of conversion from local to express would be 66th St. and Broadway because of Lincoln Center, which naturally didn't exist when that line opened. I heard a story from someone (which I'm sure is oft-repeated) who went there by subway once from Times Square and couldn't get off in time. The train continued on to 72nd St., where she got off and changed to the southbound platform and took the first train which pulled in. In her words, "Nobody told us it was an express". You guessed it - they went all the way back to Times Square.
Of course, it's impossible in most cases for local stops to become express stops, but here goes.
1/9: 116th (to allow for peak direction express service north of 96th)
2/3: 59th
4/5: Canal, possibly Bleecker (especially if that would make the station symmetric wrt transfers)
7: 74th-Broadway; convert 61st to local
B: 9th St.
A: Franklin, Lafayette (introduce free transfers to Atlantic/Pacific and Fulton), 86th; convert Utica and Nostrand to local
D: 86th
F: 4th Ave.; reintroduce express in Brooklyn
Q: Avenue J; convert Newkirk to local
[4/5: Canal, possibly Bleecker (especially if that would make the station symmetric wrt transfers) ]
I wouldn't add any express stops on Lex line:
1. Locals are very frequent anyway.
2. Transfer stations on Lex with local only service help to balance loads.
Arti
Woodhaven Blvd/Queens Blvd (IND)
161st St./Concourse (IND)
Franklin Ave./Fulton St. (IND)
74th St. Bway (Flushing IRT)
81st St. MoNH/CPW (IND)
59th St/Columbus Curcle (IRT)
33rd St/PAS (IRT)
[33rd St/PAS (IRT) ]
Why 33rd and PA? From my experience 28th street is more busy than 33rd.
Arti
Oh and reading later posts that comes from the guy who claims that 14th street on 6th Av has enough local service.:-)
Arti
14th/6th WILL have eough service when the V line begins running next year. I never said it has enough service as of today.
To ease the congestion at the Grand Central platform. Because of the peculiar nature of the Lexington Ave. IRT, Grand Central is used as the main x-fer point for people who need local stops above 42nd. because it's the last cross-platform transfer point available between express and local service. This adds to the congestion as the station is already overwhelmed by those who actually exit the subway system at this location. A cross platform x-fer at 33rd or 34th/PAS would diminish the numbers of these people dramatically.
It would only work if there was no cross platform transfer on 42nd. During rush hour they could use 14th as the locals are usually faster between 14th and 42nd anyway, but something in human psyhology prohibits it.
Arti
Not really. With no local stops in between 33rd. and 42nd., savvy riders would avoid transferring from express to local at the over congested 42nd. st.
[savvy riders would avoid transferring from express to local at the over congested 42nd. st. ]
The key word is savvy, how many of those do you know (railfans don't count)
Arti
It is interesting to note that Grand Central on the Lexington Ave IRT, an express stop with a junction at a railroad terminal, does not share the layout of Atlantic Ave (Brooklyn IRT) or 34th St / Penn Station (7th Ave IRT), where you can't make a cross-platform transfer to the local. Yet they were all built at about the same time (Dual Contracts). I wonder if it's the layout of the Lexington Ave line above 42nd St, as you point out, that was the reason for this.
--Mark
I would assume its because Grand Central is a lone express stop on the Lex with the nearest cross platform transfer stations being 14th or 86th (I'm not even sure if 86th is a cross platform, if not then 125th is the next). However Penn Station on both the 7th Av IRT or the 8th Av IND both have express cross platform stations at 42nd Street and Atlantic Av has a cross platform at Nevins. Also, was the Grand Central IRT Station built later than the others? I thought the shuttle station was the original station.
I must admit the layout at Penn when I get off the LIRR is a pain in the ass when it doesn't matter whether I take an express or local. Atlantic doesn't really bother me because I usually take the BMT from the LIRR there.
86th is 2 levels, with express trains stopping at the lower level.
If you need any local stop north of 42nd., up to 125th St., then you must x-fer at Grand Central.
...if you're so lazy you can't walk up a flight of stairs. (Yes, it's only one flight at 86th.)
Grand Central and 34th St.-7th Ave. were built roughly at the same time and opened in 1917-18. The 8th Ave. station opened in 1932.
I would assume its because Grand Central is a lone express stop on the Lex with the nearest cross platform transfer stations being 14th or 86th (I'm not even sure if 86th is a cross platform, if not then 125th is the next). However Penn Station on both the 7th Av IRT or the 8th Av IND both have express cross platform stations at 42nd Street and Atlantic Av has a cross platform at Nevins. Also, was the Grand Central IRT Station built later than the others? I thought the shuttle station was the original station.
I must admit the layout at Penn when I get off the LIRR is a pain in the ass when it doesn't matter whether I take an express or local. Whichever I go for, Murphy's Law usually comes into play and the other comes first. Atlantic doesn't really bother me because I usually take the BMT from the LIRR there.
[Also, was the Grand Central IRT Station built later than the others? I thought the shuttle station was the original station.]
The shuttle station is the original station, the one that the 4/5/6 stop at was built later. Both the original and the later stations have (or had in the case of the shuttle station) the same platform configuration. Grand Central is the reason that the 34th St stations on the 7th and 8th Avenue lines and Atlantic Avenue have that particular platform configuration.
In addition, the close proximity to Penn Station and its maze of tracks and tunnels dictated the placement and layout of the subway stations to a degree. Both stops are directly beneath 7th and 8th Avenues respectively; they couldn't be built deeper.
You'll be sorry because you just gave me another opening. Fix the express tracks on the Sea Beach and run alternate trains, one express and one local. And put the train on the Manny B and skip a couple more of the Brooklyn underground stops besides 45th and 53rd Streets. Use Pacific, 36th and 59th Streets as stops for my train, and let the 4th Avenue local handle every other stop since they parallel each other until 59th Street.
If they did that they would have to put some express stations on the Sea Beach as very few people use the line to/from Coney Island. Unless of course they brought back something like the NX Super Express which took the Sea Beach Express tracks and terminated at Brighton Beach.
My list of proposed express stops:
28th Street OR 33rd Street-Lexington Line(4,5,6)
81st Street/Natural History-CPW Line(A,B,C,D)
59th Street/Columbus Circle-7th Ave Line(1,2,3,9)
74th/Broadway-Flushing Line(7)
Franklin Avenue-Fulton Line(A,C)
And if there truly is a god, then...
If the Sea Beach(N) express tracks came back, then New Utrecht Avenue should be a stop.
And if the F or G ever came back to express in Brooklyn, then 4th Avenue should be an express stop.
28th on Lex should be neither local nor express stop, it should be closed. It's way too close to 23rd and 33rd (exit @32nd) streets.
Arti
It would crowd up the 2 remaining stations unacceptably.
You are probably right. What about 28th Street on Broadway and 7th Avenue?
Arti
Actually, 18th/7th could be eliminated. Its only 4 blocks north of 14th St.
About the same from 23rd as IRT stations are slightly more than 2 blocks long. probably the whole IRT needs some stations eliminated as they were designed for 5 car trains and now are running 10. While at it more entrances at the far ends of the remaining could compensate for that.
Arti
The students at FIT would throw a fit if they were to close that station.:-)
I think that they are young and healthy enough to walk to 23rd.
Arti
Canal (and possibly also 14th St) on the 8th Ave line should be a local stop only. While we're at it, I think either the C or E train should run express in Manhattan (below 50th St). Having only the A as the 8th Avenue express makes for a long wait for an express if you miss an A train by a few seconds.
Canal (and possibly also 14th St) on the 8th Ave line should be a local stop only
With 14th Street a connection to the "L", I think it has to remain an express stop !
Canal serves as a cross platform transfer between the local and express.(WTC/Chambers involves going up and then down stairs.)
[Having only the A as the 8th Avenue express makes for a long wait for an express if you miss an A train by a few seconds. ]
Take a local, I don't see where's the big deal?
Arti
Has anyone noticed lately the large numbers of garbage bags left on the platforms on the Queens IND from Fifth Ave. to 67th Ave? I'm sure you have seen the acclumination at many other stations as well. And at those stations where you don't see garbage bags, there are "Refuse Rooms" filled up to the brim. Of course these bags draw rats and I can assure you that the Queens IND is infested with rats. Refuse trains no longer operate in Queens and in other various locations and garbage is picked up by truck. How would you like to be one of the guys who has to lug all that garbage up flights & flights of stairs? It is a very slow process. A place let Met on the M or Rock Park on the shuttle is OK since no stairs are involved, and elevated stations are OK since it is all downhill with the heavy bags. Because of this the garbage is piled up at many locations. Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Ave. look like garbage dumps. So much garbage is generated at these stations that the bags start to pile up right after they are picked up. It is much cheaper in terms of lower personel numbers and total cost to pick up the garbage in a truck , but the station environment suffers because of it. We need the refuse collector trains restored.
[So much garbage is generated at these stations that the
bags start to pile up right after they are picked up. It is much cheaper in terms of lower personel numbers and total cost to pick up the garbage in a truck , but the station environment suffers because
of it. We need the refuse collector trains restored.]
I agree with you ... just another example of how the TA views their mission regarding "service". And as I've said before, too bad they aren't more accountable to us.
Mr t__:^)
(It is much cheaper in terms of lower personel numbers and total cost to pick up the garbage in a truck , but the station environment suffers because of it. We need the refuse collector trains restored.)
If this is so, it must be because TA trash collectors earn one hell of a lot more per hour than the people collecting the trash now. In terms of sheer manhours, how can the trucks be cheaper than the trains, which can load most of the trash right off the platform? Is it because the trains must operate at night, and TWU workers get a large premium for overnight work? Is the problem that the trash must be transferred from the trains back to trucks to be removed?
It just makes not sense to me that trucks are cheaper than trains, given the labor-intensive process of hauling the bags you describe. One ripped bag and you're stuck with a massive cleanup.
I'm going on a business trip to Dallas in 2 weeks and expect to have some free time.
Can anyone provide info on the new light rail line that recently opened there?
--Mark
Dallas Area Rapid Transit
The light rail section through downtown runs just on the northern side of the main downtown area, heading east and north towards Highland Park along the U.S. 75 center median and southwest across the Trinity River towards the Dallas Zoo. Of the two, Highland Park is upscale, the area around the zoo is more downscale.
If you go near the Schoolbook Depository, the light rail line runs along the back side of the building through a former vehicle alley, with a stop right in that area, which also serves the West End club/restaurant/tourist trap section of downtown Dallas.
You might also enjoy a visit to McKinney Avenue Transit. See MATA.ORG for info.
McKinney Ave transit .... yes, I'll check that out, too. Thanks all.
--Mark
check out utah we are getting two car from dallas for loan for our light rail this week
If you have time, there is a free LRT in downtown Fort Worth. It connects parking lots to the Tandy Center (underground station). In the Las Colinas office complex in Irving, there is a monorail connecting these sights. Finally, there is the Trinity Railway Express commuter line linking Dallas to the western suburbs towards Fort Worth. It runs hourly off peak using RDC cars. Some trains are now using Bi Level cars similar to Toronto's GO commuter trains.
At the DART LRT stations, there is an all day pass good for unlimited rides on both the LRT and Trinity Railway Express. I have ridden these two trains back in April, and it is a fantastic system. Finally, be sure to ride the MATA trams. I also have ridden this, and it is a fantastic ride through a beautiful Dallas neighborhood.
Under www.subways.net, there is a link about the local transit system around Dallas.
Acela story D.C. to Penn. todays Wash. Post in Bob Levey's column (metro section)
Here's a link:
Acela Express Might Work Best For Business Trips
thanks Pete it worked the time
The writer's assessment of the advantages of Acela over the Air Shuttles makes sense to me on paper. I've always guessed that when considering travel times door-to-door, or Downtown to Downtown, (given the inevitable delays at LaGuardia) Acela might be just as fast. Though this may not be so, the writer brings up a great point about the lack of workspace on the Air Shuttles, which may be AE's ultimate draw. Once Acela Express gets rolling regularly, I will be able to compare the 2 modes of travel on the DC-NY leg personally. OTOH, I bet Subtalker Todd Glickman will end up being our best bet for a first-hand accounting comparing the Boston Shuttles to Acela, since I know he regularly uses the Boston Air Shuttle, and, being a fellow train nut, I imagine he won't be able to help himself from using Acela Express at least once. :o)
Occasionally lately, I've seen a few engines at Sunnyside that have an Acela like nose on both ends of the engine. Does anyone now what these engines are and have anymore details about them?
-- Kirk
They are HHP-8s. They have been running on revenue trips since August.
Chaohwa
>>>They are HHP-8s. They have been running on revenue trips since August. <<<
And breaking down on revenue trips since August. :o)
[They are HHP-8s. They have been running on revenue trips since August
]
These are the replacements for the E-60's ? "The Flying Shoeboxes" !
Bill "Newkirk"
In the film Unbreakable, just released, Philadelphian M. Night Shyamalan (The Sixth Sense) begins the story with a train wreck north of Philly on the NEC...
Bruce Willis' character takes a fictional "EastRail" train from New York to Philadelphia, which wrecks, killing all passengers but him and one critically-wounded other. The actual wreck is not shown, which surprised me at first. After The Sixth Sense, I'm sure he could have commanded any budget he wanted. However, possibly for artisitc reasons, but also likely for Amtrak PR reasons, he cleverly disguises Amtrak in the film.
There are no exterior shots of the train running down the rails. You get to see the exterior of the train after it has wrecked in grainy newscoverage -- a helicopter shot not close enough to make out any detail.
A scene at the beginning of the film shows the train leaving a station labelled 'Trenton,' but I don't think the station shown was 'Trenton'. The shot was from the interior of the train out the window. I have read that the director shoots all of his movies in Philadelphia to be close to his family and to escape the distractions of Hollywood, so the station must be in the area somewhere.
At one point, Bruce Willis' character breaks into an EastRail warehouse wherein the mangled coaches from the wreck are stored. Judging from their shape (you see mostly the ends), these are obviously typical NEC Amfleet coaches. The scene is dark enough that you can't make out any other detail.
Willis' character is a security guard at the football stadium of a university (a probably fictional "FSU," which is never fully named in the film). I think it's Franklin Field, but my memories of that field are too old to be sure. In many exterior shots at the stadium, you can see an elevated trestle which has catenary poles and wire. This must be a SEPTA route - maybe ex-Reading(?). In one scene, Samuel L. Jackson's character enters a subway station which the film implies is just outside the football stadium. You only see turnstiles, and you never see the subway train, you only hear it.
At one point in the film, Willis appears to be roaming about a train station (you can make out a 'Track 5' sign in the distance). It was NOT 30th Street Station, and I'm not sure it was a train station at all, or even if it was in Philadelphia. (I thought it might have been Suburban Station, but I've never been there.) The building's architecture was classical, but it seemed too small, more like a library.
At the end of the film you see a high shot of the front of an AEM-7 painted in the Acela livery, but relabelled "EASTRAIL" on the front. The angle is such that you do not see much detail of the coaches.
I'm sure there's more I can't remember. Hopefully Philadelphia area Subtalkers can provide more details and answers should they see the film. BTW, IMO, it was not as good as The Sixth Sense, but I still liked it. I did call the "surprise ending" though.
I was suprised that they showed a bus with "SEPTA" on it. After seeing "Eastrail" I thought that SEPTA wouldn't want anything to do with the movie either.
Oh yeah. Thanks! I remember thinking, why couldn't it have been a trackless trolley at least! I probably forgot to mention that scene 'cause I'm just not a fan of buses (with all due respect to BusTalkers, I try to ride those noisy, fossil-fuel-air-pollution-belching, trolley-killers as little as possible. I figure I must feel towards bus-lovers the same way "normal" people feel towards railfans, i.e. "Huh?").
It was Franklin Field, according to an article on Philly film making in today's Camden Courier Post. The article makes no mention of railroad scenes, but says that other scenes were shot in Manayunk, Philly airport, and at a mass at Saints Peter and Paul, known locally as "Saint Peters and Paul".
Read my more complete review of the movie. The Staduim was Franklin Field and it is a wonderful railfan location. While taking Penn classes this summer I strolled down there a few times w/ my camera. When Mr. Glass is in his car you can see a blue walkway out the windshield. That is a walkway over the PRR southbound suburban connection just past CP WALNUT. The catenary shields are plexiglass and it offers a wonderful view of R1, R2 and R3 trains. The elevated route is the former PRR Hi-Line by-pass. However the "subway" station Mr. Glass falls down is the University City regional rail station and it does not have turnstyles. From the look of the catenary the opening scene was shot on the Airport Line. Furthermore I checked my map and 7 miles outside philly on the NEC is in downtown Bristol, not some "remote" location. The railroad station is probably a soundstage set. They should have used 30th St. (a WONDERFUL location) or Suburban (still nice). The "station" reminded me of pics of the Late Great Pennsylvania Station.
The DC Metro yesterday completed its first day running in full-ATO since March! They finally fixed the faulty relays and computer systems that forced them to run the entire system in manual for eight months.
I also noticed that the three-color LED passenger information signs are now fully functional. They were installed a while ago, but were dark for quite some time. Then they were activated, but only displayed pre-programmed info messages. Now they also display train information similar to London's system. In the two minutes before a train pulls into a station, the sign over the appropriate platform flashes a message in yellow alogn the lines of "Orange Line to Vienna in 2 minutes". Between trains, the signs display scrolling system-info messages and graphics in various colors. Neat!
If my memory is right, Metrorail did not have ATO since March of 1999.
Chaohwa
Your memory is right. As for the signs, they have been working for a few months now. They still don't work at Grosvenor (inbound side)*, Huntington, and Franconia-Springfield. Because of this, I assume they also don't work at Shady Grove, Silver Spring* (inbound side), Rosslyn (lower level), L'Enfant Plaza (Greenbelt/Mt. Vernon Square side), Pentagon (lower level), Greenbelt, Anacosita, Mt. Vernon Square (Huntington/Anacostia side)*, New Carrolton, Addison Road, and Vienna. At the stations with the *, it works once the train is in the station. For the observant folk, you will realize these stations are termial stations or stations where two lines start sharing trackage. Because of this, the system doesn't know when the train will leave or doesn't know which track the next train will be coming from. These stations still show the info abour the ordinance and COME RIDE WITH US. Also, National Airport Center Track and West Falls Church Center Track don't have the PIMS.
My visit Tuesday night was the first time I'd been in DC since the spring, so I didn't know how long the signs had been in full operation. It was neat to see for the first time.
As for the stations you mentioned where lines converge, I don't see that as a valid excuse for having no approaching-train info at all. If two trains are both within two minutes from the station, one is probably closer, and if not, the way the switch is set could easily be used as the determining factor for which train's info to display. By the time a train is entering the switch, the next train is known and should continue to be displayed, or corrected if the system guessed wrong originally. Either way, it displays the correct info before the train enters the station, and if it displays incorrect info beforehand, at least it is correct that that train is approaching.
Does that make sense?
I often see once per ride a sign on the red line reading something like "Red Line to Silver Spring" when the train is going to Glenmont. Those signs at Rosslyn, King Street, Pentagon, L'Enfant Plaza, and Stadium-Armory that lit up when a train came in are correct more of the time in identifying the train than the PIMS even though the technology wasn't as advanced and they are impossible to read. Also, the company that installed and designed the PIMS never had such a big job. Also, we can't have electronic signs telling us everything. They aren't always right (as indicated above). Some people can rely on their old senses in identifying the train.
You're right. I knew it was March, and it seemed longer than a year, but someone I was talking with the pther day insisted it was March 2000. Looking into it, you are right and they were wrong.
So that makes it more like 20 months since Metro last ran in full-ATO operations.
BART has red LED signs like that as well. Those things have to be the best things invented since...something. I love them. They even display how many cars the train has. The older ones that display with white lights aren't as good, because you can never read what's on them. I think the LED signs have room for 4-5 lines worth of info. Every subway system should have these. MUNI has them as well, but I think that most people would rely on the computrized voice that announces trains.
Any Local 100 member who does not receive a ballot for the union election by Wednesday November 29, 2000 should call the American Arbitration association at 1 800 529 5218. The most common reason for not receiving a ballot is a wrong address. If that is the case the member needs to make a second call to the union the hall (212 873 6000) and have their information updated. A message from Richie Borish and the United Subway Slate.
NEW DIRECTIONS RULES!!!!!!
RIGHT ON, ANDEE SOLIDARITY FOREVER
Who else used today's unusual combination of no work/regular MTA weekday schedule to indulge in a little railfanning? Since 1985, I've always used this day to do some excursions. Today I enjoyed a rocket ride down the Brighton line on slants, and a ride up the Culver line into Queens.
I really missed the old days of riding R16's on the M, slants on the D, R17's on the #5, etc ...
You'd think with all the rehab the H track platform has recently undergone (very nicely, as I saw today), they'd have found the source of that disgusting rotting corpse/rancid vomit stench that permeates the north end of the station, near the stairwell up to the J/M/Z platform. I actually saw a dozen trackworkers enduring it as the pounded in new track ties. What on god's earth is causing that disgusting odor?
Fish water from the street above is a contributing factor. There are many fishmongers up there on Canal Street (this is how they do it in Chinatown); they keep their fish in ice trays and as the ice melts it picks up the nauseating odor of fish. They simply dump the trays into the gutter where they make their way down into the storm sewer. A leak in this conduit carries this smelly, fishy water into the subway. And boy does it ever STINK! PHEW! Bleccch! I endured a walk through it back on November 13, and it was pretty unpleasant.
Chambers Street station also has a nasty funk about it, mostly from mould and fungus.
Wayne
Something needs to be done. I don't recall the smell being there when trains used that station over 10 years ago.
Grand Street also has that smell. In this case I think it is tracked in by the passengers. There's a fish place right at the top of the stairs.
Main street in Flushing also has a stinky odor near the western part of the platform, above a market.
Maybe that's why they call it "Flushing".
Posted by John on Sat Nov 25 18:12:50 2000, in response to Re: Canal St. "funk", posted by zac on Sat Nov 25
01:30:19 2000
Main street in Flushing also has a stinky odor near the western part of the platform, above a market.
And when I said all these things, people called me racist. Oh well.
>>>>Fish water from the street above is a contributing factor....A leak in this conduit carries this smelly, fishy water into
the subway. And boy does it ever STINK! PHEW! Bleccch! I endured a walk through it back on
November 13, and it was pretty unpleasant. <<<
De-training at Flushing Main Strreet on the LIRR you encounter the same odor.
Complaints are always made abt the general stench in the Main St/40th Road area, but the restauranteurs and fish shop guys are used to it, that's how they've always done it, and they aren't gonna change.
In the summer, the SE corner of 7th and 34th is also a massive stinkfest from all the fast food grease, and the smell permeates the N end of the uptown IRT.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I didn't think Chambers St. had any funky smell when we were there, and we spent a good half hour or so looking around. Or perhaps I was taking in the sights and sounds more than the smells....
This summer, on one very hot day, I was walking through the unused (bridge-approach) Canal Street station while transferring. It was like a refrigerator down there, and the whole station was covered with large droplets of condensation -- an enlarged version of what happens to the outside of a glass of iced tea served on a day like that. Perhaps this constant moisture provides a good environment for mold, mildew, and fungus, which can smell.
chinese people...seriously
Probably from the markets on canal street dumping fishy water and rotten produce into the street.
Okay look at this subject, this is a New Post but there is a Re: in the subject.
My newest Pet Peeve (beyond Off topic talk) is new posts with posters putting in a reply tag in the subject.
WHY??
Did your question that didn't get an answer scroll down too far to please you?
It is a new post, I don't want to go searching threads with subject that start RE:blah blah, thank you.
Okay, just had to get that off my chest....Kinda like the esculators at Court Street being backwards......>GR&D<
One of the Newark City Subway hosts (the one wearing the Public Service Coordinated Transport shirt) for today's ERA shop tour said that the current speculation has the light rail cars beginning service on April 16. There's still time to get a couple more "last rides" on the PCC's.
What's holding things up now?
As Kirk (the gent in the Public Service shirt) said next sentence, "That's the plan THIS week."
Interesting stuff going on there. Some upgrade mods being done even now to the cars. Thanks to the ERA for another great trip, and thanks to TNJ for hosting.
I say light blue. Since in my deisgn I choose that. What is/ or what would the color scheme be?
Christopher Rivera
Probably so. That is the next color used on maps after the ones they have now. It was retired from the JFK express. Of course, the first segment above 63rd St. will be yellow, since it will be an extension of existing Broadway service.
4900on the
Metropolitan AvBay Parkway, Bklyn
Speaking of Subway line colors, why do they make the Staten Island Railway on the maps the same color as the Eighth Avenue line? If you ask me, that line should be light blue.
- Lyle Goldman
I thought that too, but actually, it is s slight darker and more purple than the 8th Av.
(I)
I think you could've used the 7th Ave "1" as your "I"
......
When completed the 2nd avenue trunk line color will be solid
white. To improve customer communication the letters will be
off-white on white background and will use lowercase versions of
the existing lines. Express routes will be designated with a
special flashing route letter, and the skip-stop service will
use a solid white letter on an off-white background.
Chris, don't worry about the route colors. By the time this
is actually built you'll be trying to collect from the bankrupt
social security system.
I have a feeling that the 2nd. Ave. line will open shortly before the act of commuting to Manhattan from the outer boros to your place of employment becomes obsolete.
It will be still be in the planning stage when teleport wires are strung through all of the other lines' tunnels.
If it's light blue, people will try to ride it to the airport.
Heard at Lexington/60th platform: "There will be a Queens-bound train arriving in approximately [X number of minutes]."
Great- WHICH ONE? Lexington is where two different trains split up to go to different parts of Queens. If you have to go the narrow wedge of Long Island City bounded roughly by 31st Avenue, Northern Boulevard, 31st Street and Steinway Street, and thus could take the 'N' or 'R', this is useful. Most people have to know which Queens-bound train is coming, so they can prepare to board- or not.
Heard at Jay Street: "There is a Brooklyn-bound 'A' train arriving at Hoyt Street."
If you're waiting to go out the Fulton express, all this tells you is that you just missed the train. If you're waiting on the Manhattan-bound platform, you couldn't care less.
Heard at Atlantic Avenue during weekend GO: "There is no '5' service to the Bronx at this station. Please use '4' service instead."
Too bad this announcement wasn't heard at any Manhattan stations that are normally served by both trains during the weekend. Besides, the '5' doesn't even GO to Brooklyn on weekends- just rush hours.
Heard on outbound rush hour '7' with typically mixed local and express signs at Queensboro Plaza: "This is the Flushing-bound '7'. Watch the closing doors."
Shouldn't the crew know whether it's local or express? Or don't they know it's outbound rush hour? Most people are in the mood for guessing games on the way home from work.
"Smoking is not permitted in the subway system."
If you have enough common sense not to smoke in the subway, this announcement is unnecessary. If you're arrogant, impaired, ignorant or just plain stupid enough to smoke in the subway, this announcement is not going to stop you.
"There's another train behind this one."
Yeah, but how FAR behind? Next stop or next borough? And is it yours?
"Thank you for your patience."
If the delay is bad enough for this to be said, most people are anything BUT patient. Of course, this is a euphanism for "Please don't lynch the conductor or motorman."
"Thank you for riding the MTA"
Most non-transit buffs don't have a choice!!
Picky, Picky, Picky! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
[Heard at Jay Street: "There is a Brooklyn-bound 'A' train arriving at Hoyt Street." ]
Maybe this announcement was made at a location other than Hoyt St. ?
Bill "Newkirk"
What about "Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fein, Dr. Howard." That anouncement has negitive value.
>>>There's another train behind this one."
Yeah, but how FAR behind? Next stop or next borough? And is it yours?
Yes! This is one of my most *favorite* announcements in the subway system. Right up there with "We are experiencing mechanical difficulties" or "There is congestion up ahead - please excuse us for the inconvenience" when you know full well that no train has passed by in the last who-knows-how-many minutes.
The next chat is currently scheduled for December 2, 2000 beginning at 8PM and lasting all evening. Late comers are welcome.
Two ways to access:
www.subtalklive.com using your web browser.
IRC Client:
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Port: 6667
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The chat room will be opened for testing soon. Please try to connect and solve any problems before the time for chat actually comes!
The chat is now available for testing.
NEW FEATURE:
Operators can now login through the Java system (that's for you JerseyMike).
FUTURE:
Operators will have to use a different URL to login, others will no longer see mode changes and the like (that's for you WMATAGMOAGH).
Tonight on my way home from a pool hall I witnessed what appeared to be an old LIRR Set!!!!!!!! 2 MP-15s with 2 cars 1 was a parlor car it had the RED stripe and 1 coach with the BLUE stripe This train was seen at approx 11:00PM going EAST to Jamaica. Sdly the train was dark (no lights) I couldnt get the engine or car #s.
Perhaps a dead head move to get rid of some old equipment. The LIRR still has some MP-15's used for work service. Were the MP-15's blue with white stripe or green (New York & Atlantic)?
Bill "Newkirk"
One MP-15 was probably 163. I spotted the same type of move westbound at Richmond Hill two weeks ago. There was just one coach involved.
Just what is the maximum allowed speed that these "TGV" style trains can run at, and at what part of their route can they do this. I'm asking this question based on two things. First, I just read a posting from the Washington Post that says that the Acelas don't cut down on the travel times by comparison to the conventional trains by much. Next, back in August and October of 1999 I rode and shot video on the Metro North from Grand Central to New Haven, CT. I saw the "Reconstruction" of the express tracks between New Rochelle and New Haven. I also noticed that there are a lot of turns on this route and it makes me wonder how can a high speed train such as the Acela operate effectively through there? Can anyone enlighten me on this?
Maximum speed between New York and Washington: 135 mph.
Maximum speed between New Rochelle and New Haven: 90 mph.
Maximum speed between New Haven and Boston: 150 mph.
The reason Amtrak cannot cut down travel time between NY and DC is that this section has a very old canatery system dating back to 1930s. The wire suspension is not good enough to allow trains running more than 135 mph.
As for the section between New Rochelle and New Haven, not only is its canatery system old, but also it is controlled by Metro-North. Amtrak has to cooperate with them.
Chaohwa
However, the tilting system of the ACELA trainsets will alow them to ignore or partly ignore many of the speed restrictions along the route. Average speed is much more important than maximum speed. For example the new trainsets will be able to shoot out of Newark and travel at 90 mph or more through that vexing S curve at Elizabeth all the way to county where it can accelerate to 135 all the way to Trenton. Furthermore, eliminating that stupid stop at Metropark would go a long way to reducing trip times. On the New Haven leg an ACELA train could maintain an average speed of 60-70 mph instead of 40-50.
Good points, Mike. Just to reiterate: It's not the maximum speed that's important, but the average speed. And the tilting itself does not permit faster speeds; it's for comfort of passengers only. The engines do not tilt; only the passenger cars.
The tilting allows for greater speed in curves and eliminates the time costly speed reductions and accelerations currently associated w/ the route.
You're right, Jersey Mike, but just so everyone understands why, it's because this allows the passengers not to be uncomfortable due to the centrifical force. The tilting does not help the train stay on the tracks. With the tilting turned off, the train can safely run at the same maximum allowable speed; the passengers just won't be as happy! Since the power units (engines) do not tilt, the engineers must endure these lateral forces.
Here's the link to the technical report on the Acela Express train that discusses this in detail.
Indeed, "net ground speed" is the issue. The Budd Co. exec on the first revenue Metroliner claimed 88mph train v. 89 plane -- based on midtown NY to DC. It is of course faster now for both but only by a little. Also many more DC bound riders are in fact headed to N VA and so National Airport is closer. The #'s from another post are 70 train 30 plane DC NY but the opposite to Boston. IMHO the best part of this whole project has been the electrification--no more 30 min boondoggle at New Haven. I would be very curious to see what a set of hotrodded Silverliners could do from Penn to South Sta. I have memories of a cab ride in some running as an advance extra from Philly to NY over some holiday--we beat the then current GG1 based schedule easily by 15 min making all of the scheduled stops. MU's in theory have advantages on curves. (I always thought MU's were cool) Its too bad the Metroliners aged so badly.
no more 30 min boondoggle at New Haven.
Bert Pennypacker states in "New Haven Shoreliners" in the current National Railway Bulletin (vol 65, no 4, p21) that the schedule called for 4 minutes to change from steam to electric in New Haven for the Merchants Limited. A reproduction of a 1937 timetable included with the article confirms it.
the March 1957 Official Guide shows 12 min @ New Haven and another 20 or more @ Penn (first change diesel to NH electric, then swap for GG1) , but ATKFall/Winter 96/7 shows 10-15 @ New Haven and 20-25 @ Penn--latter no equipment change. My mistake it juse always seems longer @ New Haven, & I try to stop over in NY splitting the trip in two. Still, 25 minutes in NY seems overkill.
A train CAN'T miss its slot in the North River Tubes. They must allow enough time to account for most possible delays. It a train leaves Penn Station late it impacts many other trains creating a domino effect of lateness.
/*Indeed, "net ground speed" is the issue.*/ True, but average trip MPH isn't invalid.
/*The Budd Co. exec on the first revenue Metroliner claimed 88mph train v. 89 plane -- based on midtown NY to DC.*/
One wonders what a suburban location on LI to DC time would be.
/* It is of course faster now for both but only by a little.*/
And it could have been a LOT faster with Acela.
/*IMHO the best part of this whole project has been the electrification--no more 30 min boondoggle at New Haven.*/
If Amtrak would ever stop running diesel to Boston.
/* I would be very curious to see what a set of hotrodded Silverliners could do from Penn to South Sta.*/
Ahhh, can you settle for a hot rodded Harley/ I'm build a hot street rod this winter :)
Actually, the Metroliners *were* a hot rodded Silverliner. The prototypes were all Silverliner based. They flopped. Not sure why - too heavy, vibration, lack of aerodynamics, or stretching the available technology?
/* I have memories of a cab ride in some running as an advance extra from Philly to NY over some holiday--we beat the then current GG1 based schedule easily by 15 min making all of the scheduled stops.*/
Heh, care to post any speed numbers? I bet it was better than 120 at times.
/* MU's in theory have advantages on curves.*/
Yeah, the nice kick into the back of your seat that you get leaving the curve. MUs are all about acceleration.
/*(I always thought MU's were cool)*/
Oh, they are. Especially the LIRR's various MUs (electric and otherwise. as an aside, I heard the last turbine units were actually in some deadline in Brooklyn until '94)
/*Its too bad the Metroliners aged so badly.*/
Yeah, they looked real cool, if anything else. The Amfleets that came afterwards have more than enough annoying problems though. If the PRR would have gone for an A car B car setup, and allowed for a better front end, better interconects, and an overall lighter/better design, it could have changed things bigtime in the US.
The NH crews have told me that it takes 8 minutes to change engines, and the rest is just to make the Acela look better. In late 1999, there was a train that took 5.5 hours NY-BOS, and it stopped at NH for 45 mins. and arrived at each station 5-10 minutes early. That was just so they could claim that the Acela Regional is "up to 90 minutes faster"
I saw a picture of this car in a magazine, the side roll signs were taken out and there was graffiti over most of the car which included a "Dr. Doom" pic. Wasnt 8980 the one involved in the Wakefield Yard wreck?
Train#1918Mike
That's the one. And it's no longer on the property. It and three others went to the big yard in the sky.
-Stef
..I lost track way back when 9153 was shipped.
what others have we lost?
(aside from the "scrapped" list on this site)
8980-81, 9152-53, and 8884 from more recent times, 8968-69, 9114, 9131, 9213, and 9224 from way back in the 60, 70, and 80s.
9000-9001 are true survivors. They were damaged in a fire at Borough Hall in the 80's, but came bouncing back and were ultimately given a general overhaul.
-Stef
Well, City Planning's study of the Manhattan Bridge problem is over. The final report has a brief conclusion written by DCP's consultant. Since the study was federally funded, and thus required to be released (though not in a way that anyone would notice), I suppose I can pass it on.
"The MTA seems to have taken the position that once the Manhattan Bridge and Williamsburg bridge are repaired, there is no need for future planning. This may be true for the short term, but for the long term, enhancement and betterment of existing systems has to be planned...
"The MTA's confidence in NYCDOT's ability to prevent future wear and tear on the bridge does not take economic conditions into account. The funds presently being spent on capital rehabilitation are primarily Federal and State monies (and big time debt, they should have said). However, the maintenance costs have to be paid from City funds. Based upon history and despite all the best efforts, when the economy slows down, the City's operational costs must be cut. In the City's case, where the needs of many social programs share the same budget with the needs of infrastructure, one of the easiest cuts to make is maintenance, since the immediate effects of deferring it are not evident, and therefore less compelling.
"We are presently still in a strong economy. Eventually, as the economy slows down, some normal maintenace will be put into a 'deferred' category due to lack of funds. This can result in more frequent bridge closing for emergency repairs. (Even when bridge conditions are good, these repairs are occasionally required). This possibility must be recognized and some alternative provisions should be implemented as soon as possible."
The consultant recommends that the MTA follow its own advice and build the Rutgers-DeKalb connector. Given the lack of political importance of the people of Brooklyn who work (for employers other than the government or government funded non-profits), however, there is almost no chance that the recommendation will be acted upon. But at least the future has been predicted.
I wouldn't be so optimistic. Redevelopment of the area under the Manhattan Bridge may drastically increase the cost of such a connection, making it even less feasible in the future if it is not built now. And, given the bridge's design and accumulated structural flaws, the cost of ongoing repairs may rise to a level (during a recession) that the City cannot pay for them, and the bridge is abandoned, at least for trains. West Side Highway scenario.
No one can say they weren't warned. That's all a bureaucrat can do.
Oh boy, there goes any chance of Second Avenue Subway Line. Emergency Shutdowns, cant they see it would be cheeper over the long run to build a new bridge or is the city too lazy to come up with a design?
Christopher Rivera
Those who wrote this report don't know much about the operational side. Sure, build the Rutgers/DeKalb connector. But there is no way the TA could run 4 services thru the same trackage (B/D/F/Q)...... If we could somehow turn back the hands of time, instead of building the 63rd St. tube, which was meant to connect with a new line thru Queens and not the Queen Blvd. IND, that money could have been used for a tube replacing the Sixth Ave. side of the MannyB from DeKalb to Grand St. Look at all the money that has been spent over the last 15 years!
(Those who wrote this report don't know much about the operational side. Sure, build the Rutgers/DeKalb connector. But there
is no way the TA could run 4 services thru the same trackage (B/D/F/Q).)
The idea isn't to replace the whole bridge with the connector. It's to allow enough service through the connector to limit disruption as one side, and then the other, is perpetually under repair.
My proposal, which was not accepted, was to also connect the Nassau Loop to Grand Street as part of the initial Second Avenue Subway construction. Unless and until a full Second Ave. was built, trains through the connection would travel from the Montigue Tunnel up the 6th Ave. express via Grand Street.
With those two connection, all current service and more could be accommodated, and all stations served, by the tunnels without the Manhattan Bridge, except during rush hours. Limiting use of the bridge to rush hours would cut traffic over the bridge, and thus deterioration due to torsion, by 75 percent.
There are lots of potential options, but the "base" service could be:
N: 6 to 8 trains, Broadway Local via Montigue.
R: 6 to 8 trains, Broadway Local via Montigue.
Q: 6 to 8 trains, 6th Avenue Express via Montigue and new connection.
F: 8 to 10 trains, 6th Avenue Local via Rutgers.
D: 6 to 8 trains, 6th Avenue Express via new connection & Rutgers.
(local to express at W 4th Street switch)
B: 6 to 8 trains, 6th Avenue Local via new connection & Rutgers.
Rush hours: N goes to Manhattan Bridge H tracks, Broadway Express.
M goes to Montigue Tunnel
B goes to Manhattan Bridge, A/B tracks.
The Manhattan Bridge has been under repair since at least 1983, through 3 Mayors and 2 Governors. The bridge can't be replaced with a new bridge or tunnel for financial and political reasons. The "repairs" may well go beyond 2003. The basic design flaws cannot be corrected. It's too late for improved maintainence to have an impact. The solution seems to be that there is no solution. It seems odd that this issue really isn't on any (usually loudmouthed) politicians agenda. Are they just waiting for the day when the bridge is declared unsafe and shut down to vehicular and/or subway traffic? Even in a city not known for long-term planning this seems foolish, it isn't like these problems developed overnight.
I had a chance to speak with the city engineer responsible for supervising Manhattan Bridge repairs. He expressed confidence that the bridge work would be completed by 2004, and that full four-track service would be restored at that time.
Still, Larry's point about a connector tunnel is a good one. Another possibility is the re-engineering of the bridge to provide new add-on structural supports, utilizing technologies developed in the last ten years for new bridges.
Getting a $400 million connector tunnel built is difficult, but not impossible. Claire Shulman, the Queens Borough President, fought for years to get a completed 63rd Street subway line - and we have something useful now to show for it. It took eight years and a lot of lobbying, phone calls, meetings, deals etc. etc. to get AirTrain done - and it is becoming a reality.
The Second Avenue subway is a line item in the new Capital Plan, still there despite the defeat of the Bond Act (but the pressur has to be kept up). A lot of nerve-wracking, tedious, time-consuming, patience-requiring work got done to see this happen. 17,000 postcards were sent to Governor Pataki and the MTA. C. Virginia Fields put together a task force that "got the message out." Assembly members, Senators and Councilmen were lobbied, and lobbied again.
I participated in much of this, and can personally attest to the frustration. But I can point to real achievements, too, and I feel privileged to have had even a small place in it.
Is nycsubway.org a place where people are only going to grouse, Monday-morning quarterback, throw tomatoes at the MTA, and lament about "woulda, shoulda, coulda?"
What are you guys doing about this now? Is anyone out there in touch with Howard Golden (Brooklyn Borough President)? $400 million should be an easier sell than $8 billion. If a staffer in his office buys into what Fields has done in Manhattan, you're already accomplished something. Post the results here, and tell us where to send the postcards.
This is not the first time I've posted a challenge to the people here - and I want to know what constructive steps you folks are taking to make your very legitimate ideas into reality.
Are you listening, Larry?
(This is not the first time I've posted a challenge to the people here - and I want to know what constructive steps you folks are taking to make your very legitimate ideas into reality.
Are you listening, Larry? )
Hey, I got City Planning to study it. Wrote letters to the editorial board of the Daily News, along with a whole bunch of pols complaining about it (the Mayor's chief of staff wrote back saying it was an MTA problem, the state wrote back saying it was a City problem). Didn't contact Golden, because he is useless. At some point you've got to admit defeat. Neither MTA bureaucrats nor city bureaucrats are in a position to get anything done without a disaster happening first.
We might at least get an upgrade of our election machines now.
The Lever type mechanical machines used throughout New York are THE BEST and should be brought back into production for MANDATORY use throught America
The Lever type mechanical machines used throughout New York are THE BEST and should be brought back into production for MANDATORY use throught America
They might seem that way, but I disagree - they're too easy to rig for fraudulent tallies and too susceptible to mechanical breakdown. There is a type of optically-scanned paper ballot that has the lowest error rate of any procedure and that is nearly idiot-proof which I think should become the standard in those communities that need automated counting (nationwide, probably 70% of our precincts covering 95% of the population). Basically, they are similar in principle to the SAT answer sheet, but the ovals are significantly larger, and they can sort ballots into two compartments in the event the machine detects a read error or conflict. They've been around for quite a number of years and my older son tells me that they are now in use in our home precinct in North Carolina, after being used in most of the other precincts in Franklin County for several years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The problem with mark sense ballots is the same as for the punch card - it permits casting invalid ballots. The lever system prevents voting for two candidates. This rejection rate was almost 20% in some FLA precincts during the last election. The normal rate in FLA for invalid ballots is between 1 and 2% The time to catch mistakes is before they happen, not after the fact.
The Shoup machines used in NYC have mechanical counters behind the disk that turns to an X, when you pull the lever. This counter becomes visible when the machine is opened. The machines are delivered opened. Poll watchers will usually be present, when the machines are closed and verify that the counters are zeroed. Sometimes mistakes are made transcribing the tallies. These are usually caught during the official canvas, which takes place after the machines are sealed and returned to the election board warehouse.
The tampering that does occur generally works the following way. The machines require electrical power to operate. Unscrupulous election workers could kick out the power to deny people the vote. There is a safeguard against such eventualities. The machine will jam and cannot be reset, if power is removed at any time. This is not much of a safeguard because jamming the machine in selected precincts is usually sufficient to cause mischief.
I like the machines we use here in New York. To me it's incomprehencable that any place in U.S. would use paper ballots. Paper ballots are for third world countries. You'd think Florida could've done better. Then again, Florida is a state with little if any mass transit, which is a good example of how backward that state can be.
Florida is a state with little if any mass transit, which is a good example of how backward that state can be.
This isn't Russia, where every city with a population of 2000 gets a subway.
Only Miami has the population to support rapid transit, and it has it.
Of course, if this was the Soviet Union, you'd love it.
Better DEAD than RED
Since you guys brought up politics ( a bad idea with me around), let me put some new colors in your paint box. There IS NO MORE SOVIET UNION. My buddy Ronald Reagan saw to that, aided by that country's own inemtitude. Oh boy, watch the notes start flying hot and heavy now.
Hey! We're in AGREEMENT here.
Better DEAD than RED
Good show Pork. Believe it or not, I was wondering what your reaction would be on my pearls of wisdom. Good to see us on the same page.
Good show Pork. Believe it or not, I was wondering what your reaction would be on my pearls of wisdom.
What are you doing, Fred, casting pearls before swine?
Oh, Chuchubob, just being flexible. You have to be quick on your feet on this site or you'll get eaten up alive. Not bad, though, eh?
Communism or socialism are both delusional, Employee ownership may be a good idea but,within a few years, thru luck or vision, the assets would be again concentrated in a relatively few hands, you're right back to capitalism. Capatalism works however, in a few years those who can't sue their HMO for KILLING A LOVED ONE and who see their ecosystem ravaged by biotech anarchy will welcome a rebuilt regulatory system to balance economic concerns with morality
Communism or socialism are both delusional, Employee ownership may be a good idea but,within a few years, thru luck or vision, the assets would be again concentrated in a relatively few hands, you're right back to capitalism. Capatalism works however, in a few years those who can't sue their HMO for KILLING A LOVED ONE and who see their ecosystem ravaged by biotech anarchy will welcome a rebuilt regulatory system to balance economic concerns with morality.
In the world of Biotech we shouldn't be too hasty in banning things. Genetic engineering is just controlling totally natural forces (mutation is what gave us evolution) and it has a lot of potential for good. In fact, more than bad. But I don't think that we can just let this be unregulated, we just need regulation to come from sounder minds who know what their talking about and not by people (read: sheep) who believe we should ban Dihydrogen Monoxide because it's the chief component of acid rain.
who believe we should ban Dihydrogen Monoxide because it's the chief component of acid rain.
It's also a big time killer of children in swimming pool accidents.
Most people fail to realize that the Biotech inductry creates NOTHING NEW. They take pre-existing traits and move them where they will be most helpful. Right now there is a form of rice that has been mixed w/ Daffodil DNA to enrich it w/ Beta-carotine. This wonder rice could prevent millions of cases of blindness world wide. However, the sheep insist that this rice will somehow get loose and wipe out all life on Earth and therefore are activly blocking it. I don't think there is any way of combining daffodils and rice so that it could eventually harm something.
[Most people fail to realize that the Biotech inductry creates NOTHING NEW}
So you are saying that evolution has created nothin new? Same logic.
Arti
Biotechnology must be strictly regulated so that dangerous genetic matter cannot be released into the biosphere. However after regulatory review, safe biotech products should be brought to market so that lives may be improved. The "Golden" rice which Jersey Mike alluded to is one such product. If, after review there are no known hazards, this rice must be introduced so that people have a better chance of not losing their eyesight
I was pointing out his simplistic approach. I'm no expert in that field and I highly doubt that any of posters here are.
Arti
Evolution works with ramdon mutations that cause new traits. Biotech can not induce specific mutations or code new traits. Then can only cut and splice.
[Evolution works with ramdon mutations that cause new traits.]
So random changes can create anything new, hmm, to sterch it, no writer has ever created anything new?!
[Biotech can not induce specific mutations or code new traits. Then can only cut and splice. ]
What you just said is utter nonsense.
Arti
Bio Tech firms can't build a completely new trait, the process of evolution can. Does that make sence? Bio Tech firms must use genetic code that was already been naturally designed because they lack the technology to design completely new genetic code themselves.
[technology to design completely new genetic code themselves. ]
No they don't they could aswell randomly modify genes (like nature) and see what comes out, but this would be dangerous and useless.
Of course there could be some Evel Scientist with unlimited funds doing it right now :-)
Arti
However, future research will allow this to happen.
I think palm trees should be genetically engineered so they can have them OUTDOORS (so don't tell me about the World Financial Center) in New York.
Dihydrogen Monoxide: pro and con
Did you see the link to the site that sells Kleinbottles?
That site's not a joke, BTW. You can really buy a Klein bottle.
The price is no joke either. $25 for a 4 inch bottle. Untill yesterday I thought a klein bottle was just a theoretical construct.
Think of Communism as a relay race. The CCCP simply passed the baton to China.
Yeh and all the money for defence went to the Gulf War, to protect the pockets of the Bush and Cheney family.
Come on Bob, you're just bitter. Try a soothing ride on the Sea Beach when you get to New York. It will make you feel a while lot better.
Ever heard of TriRail?
lets stay on topic please !
With the optical ballots you could have an onsite machine that could check to see if the ballot is valid. An invalid ballot would be kicked back to the voter to do over. Anyway, I still think lever machines are the best. My town uses them and I've always thought they were the coolest. That whirring and grinding really makes you feel that your vote is being counted.
PLEASE CHANGE THE NAME OF THIS THREAD (I attempted earlier today)....IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE IF ANYONE HAS BEEN PAYING ATTENTION, DUH....
How about this, BMT Man
The voting machines used in NYC need electrica power to operate? I thought it was the mechanical force of moving the big front lever to and from "voting position" that powered the counting apparatus. What in it is electricaly operated?
The problem with any kind of computerized voting system is that the integrity of the system depends on the software that runs on it being honest and bug-free. Verifying software is just not easy to do. Mechanical counters cannot be dishonest. They either work or they don't, and if they don't, it's obvious.
Let's revive production of parts for these machines. And if possibe, make them (or similar machines) in such a way that they can work without electricity.
It should even be possible to equip them in such a way that, if electrical and telephone lines are availabe, the results on the counters can be read out electronically and reported to a central counting site, as a faster way to get (unoffical) results. But this shoud only be a supplement to the traditional method of tallying the results, not a replacement. And the actual recording (as distinguished from the transmitting) of the votes should be strictly mechanical.
Out here in Suffolk county the mechanical voting machines use electricity to power the florescent light bulbs used to illuminate the names of the candidates. Perhaps they also power motors that assist people in pulling a handle that opens and shuts the curtain.
Don't forget that Florida has a rich history of voter fraud. Much of it being related to the minority districts.
There used to be a time in Florida (and not that long ago), when the KKK would scared black voters from going to the polls.
BMTman
There used to be a time in Florida (and not that long ago), when the KKK would scared black voters from going to the polls.
That, unfortunately, was a problem not confined to Florida, nor were blacks its only targets (the KKK hates Jews and Catholics too). But those tactics have nothing to do with the type of ballot used. We had some problems of that nature in Franklin County, North Carolina when I first lived there. In 1985 I was appointed precinct registrar (a politically-appointed post that went to the party of the Governor, at that time newly-elected Republican Governor Jim Martin) and promptly ruffled feathers on both the Democratic and Republican sides by hiring a black schoolteacher as one of my election assistants. My fellow Republicans were upset because she was a Democrat and the Democrats were upset because she was honest. But she is still serving today, under my Democratic successor.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hooray for the two party system in the South. It's about time they came into the 20th Century. OOOOOOOPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSS! I better backtrack and fast. If GW is finally declared the winner, which he should be, it will the South that put him over the top. I can now even force myself to whistle a few bars of Dixie.
Anyone who thinks that Flordia is "south" has another thing comming. Its a Disney owned and operated old folks home staffed by Cuban Nationalist refugees.
Anyone who thinks that Flordia is "south" has another thing comming.
Much of Florida is the South. Been there. Know that.
Much of New Jersey is "south" also, but after you lump everything together its a northern state. Same goes for Delaware.
Which is why the Electoral College needs to go the way of congressional districts. This way predominantly Republican districts in upstate New York would not be disenfranchised. Same goes from predominanty Democratic districts in South Florida.
Well I'm glad you're not blaming the Republicans for that since the KK was overwhellmingly Democratic.
The KKK were the same as the Dixiecrats (Strom Thurmond for president in 48!), they switched over when the Democrats began to adopt civil rights issues as part of their platform. That's also when the South became a Republican bastion.
Digital touch screen machines are the best.
Any computer based technology can be hacked, whether networked or not.
Just build them like an ATM machine and have the election officials check the system integrety before the election.
Enough with the politica already. My blood is getting up.
Aw, Beach, I Didn't say WHO would do the hacking.
Plus their levers sound a lot like R-1/9 trigger caps.:-)
Larry,
You have been very constructive indeed. Except: NEVER ADMIT DEFEAT.
A new set of tubes across the East River will raise property values and improve subway service. But, of course, you know that.
NEVER GIVE UP. KEEP TRYING. If Howard Golden won't help, maybe your Assemblyman will. With all the bright, talented people who show up on this website there ought to be a way to create enough critical mass to start something.
Don't surrender Larry.
(If Howard Golden won't help, maybe your Assemblyman will.)
My Assemblyman, like all "reform" Democrats, believes all dollars that can be directed to his district should be captured by the health and social service non-profits that support his re-election. He knows all about these problems, if he read what I wrote him.
Politicians drive. So do the public employee union members, non-profit workers, and (for Republicans) suburban homeowners who elect them.
So who the hell rides the subways anyway Larry my man? It seems there aren't too many groups left that ride the rails. Los Angeles would have been a hell of lot better place to live if we had some kind of rail system for the county. Those damn freeways are clogged most of the time, and we just got a handle at long last on our smog problem. Public transportation should be a jewel to be polished, not a rhinestone to be discarded. You see, after 46 years in California I still retain a little New York in me. Never can lose it completely, Brighton Beach Bob tells me.
>>>You see, after 46 years in California I still retain a little New York in me. Never can lose it completely<<<
No you never lose that. Just some brain cells living in that LA cesspool. Yuck.
zman"LA hater"179
Now why in God's name did you go and say a thing like that? You ought to know that I love California and wouldn't live anyplace else. Were you just trying to goad me into saying something mean to you? Well, surprise, surprise, surprise, I will not do it. You are wrong about California. I call it God's Country. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
I think he just meant Los Angeles. California's a huge state with a ton of nice places. Unfortunatly, the city of Los Angeles isn't one of them, no matter what the musician Randy Newman thinks (his song "I Love LA").
If Howard Golden is such a useless piece of ectoplasm why the hell is he still boriugh President? You mean there aren't better people in Brooklyn to run the show?
The Borough President is just a useless patronage position that should be eliminated.
That and the people are sheep and will vote for anybody with a D next to their name, and won't even vote in the Primary for people with D next to their name. Why do you think Hillary is the new Junior Senator from New York?
Golden (who is a fellow Stuyvesant alumnus) has done a few good things. He barred cars from driving down the Riegelmann Boardwalk (Coney Island) among other things. He will retire when his term expires next year.
All I can say is what a mess! I think fixing the bridge has been a waste of money, which the government is throwing into the East River.
The only REAL solution would be new tubes to replace the Manny B tracks, FOUR new tubes, one for the B&D and other for N&Q.
Unfortunately politics, NIMBY's, and property values get in the way.
I think they should just build the tubes. And build the tubes. We can construct them fast and reliable with our new technology. Only people are in the way. And people are no match for machines. Just bring in the military and condemn the whole area, then rebuild it. It's actually quite easy.
In China, they would've been able to build those tubes, because THEY DON'T LET anybody get in the way.
The U.S. of A has got to get a grip on it's problems and face them, and not let individual rights stomp on social rights, the right of people in our city to be able to commute and travel on a clean, safe, and reliable subway system.
not let individual rights stomp on social rights
Sorry, but the protection of individual rights is a cornerstone of our society. If you don't like that, why don't you move to China, which you seem to prefer anyway? Of course, you wouldn't have any rights there - including the right to speak freely on a board such as this one - but that wouldn't bother you, right?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's useless to try to reason with John, he just tries to bring the oppression from China and Singapore into the United States because he can't afford to move to his workers' paradise.
Better DEAD than RED
Maybe if we all chip in and buy him a one-way ticket? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you guys know something about John that I don't know? He doesn't sound like a Commie to me. Let us respect other people's opinions if we can. And we must.
He isn't a "commie" per se, but he calls himself a socialist, voted for James Harris and Margaret Trowe for president and vice president and idolizes China as the greatest country on Earth, while being a hater of the individual liberties that make America the REAL greatest country on Earth.
>>> Let us respect other people's opinions if we can <<<
Fred;
You missed the mark. It is important that we respect other people, and allow them to express their opinions. We do not have to respect their opinions.
Tom
Words of wisdom from Old Tom. I stand corrected.
It's useless to try to reason with John, he just tries to bring the oppression from China and Singapore into the United States because he can't afford to move to his workers' paradise.
Better DEAD than RED
Maybe if we all chip in and buy him a one-way ticket? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you guys know something about John that I don't know? He doesn't sound like a Commie to me. Let us respect other people's opinions if we can. And we must.
He isn't a "commie" per se, but he calls himself a socialist, voted for James Harris and Margaret Trowe for president and vice president and idolizes China as the greatest country on Earth, while being a hater of the individual liberties that make America the REAL greatest country on Earth.
>>> Let us respect other people's opinions if we can <<<
Fred;
You missed the mark. It is important that we respect other people, and allow them to express their opinions. We do not have to respect their opinions.
Tom
Words of wisdom from Old Tom. I stand corrected.
It's useless to try to reason with John, he just tries to bring the oppression from China and Singapore into the United States because he can't afford to move to his workers' paradise.
Better DEAD than RED
Maybe if we all chip in and buy him a one-way ticket? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you guys know something about John that I don't know? He doesn't sound like a Commie to me. Let us respect other people's opinions if we can. And we must.
He isn't a "commie" per se, but he calls himself a socialist, voted for James Harris and Margaret Trowe for president and vice president and idolizes China as the greatest country on Earth, while being a hater of the individual liberties that make America the REAL greatest country on Earth.
>>> Let us respect other people's opinions if we can <<<
Fred;
You missed the mark. It is important that we respect other people, and allow them to express their opinions. We do not have to respect their opinions.
Tom
Words of wisdom from Old Tom. I stand corrected.
Come on Anon. John's blast didn't sound like the Communist Manifesto to me. That's why we should avoid politics on this site. Feathers get ruffled and bad vibes burst into anger. We don't need that.
Only people are in the way. And people are no match for machines.
So machines will use this tunnel, not people, right?
No, machines will be making this tunnel, which scientifically people cannot stop. Trains will be using the tunnel, carrying people to and from Brooklyn. I think if the tunnels were built the economy in many parts of Brooklyn would improve as a result of the faster subway access. And it wouldn't hurt Coney Island either.
There's two choices here. Keep throwing money into the river by spending money on fixing the bridge tracks, or build a tunnel and people in Brooklyn finally get a decent connection to Manhattan.
Things don't come easy, but Brooklyn and the subway will be a better place if the tunnel replacement is built.
No, machines will be making this tunnel, which scientifically people cannot stop.
Who built these machines, Lenin?
Better DEAD than RED
Ever since a bunch of crazy Dutch workers took off their wooden shoes and threw them into the milling machine that replaced them, people have been able to stop machines.
Modern machines (tunnel boring machines) are incredibly slow. Tunnel 3 (the aquaduct) is being bored at the rate of a few feet per hour and the bits have to be changed every 20 minutes. The best/fastest way to build a tunnel is the drill and blast shield method. Unfortunitly this method is quite dangerous and has a nasty habit of killing workers. In today's economy even if the construction methods were legal nobody would work for you because they could find safer jobs elsewhere. You either need high unemployment or forced labour.
You either need high unemployment or forced labour.
You just found a great method with which John will agree!
I do not support forced labor. This is exactly what I'm against.
That is not the way to build public works. Unfortunately, alot of NYC's buildings, bridges, and even subways were built by exploited workers, who risked their lives, all so the top brass at the IRT and BMT would get rich. And they did.
They did build the subway, and we must always remember the lives lost and misery the workers suffered in this harsh task.
I do not support forced labor. This is exactly what I'm against.
Then why are you still in support of the People's Republic of China as the greatest country on Earth?
I forgot to add something to that:
Better DEAD than RED
Pork: Sometimes you do get carried away. Oh, the ways of youth. Hang in there. At least you not jaded.
No, seriously. Coney Island is big in the summer. Sure the crowds aren't as big as they were in the days of yore, but they will never be, no matter what you do.
I think that genetically engineered palm trees should be installed along the beach. Genetically engineered so they can survive the harsh winter.
That was a non sequitar.
Did they use boring machines to construct the Chunnel? I thought they did, and considering the length of the tunnel, it was quite a feat.
It probably would take 5 to 10 years to build a new tunnel to replace the Manhattan bridge tracks, but if they started years ago it would be done in a few years.
The drill and blast sheild method is too dangerous, and many people have been killed. Forced labor isn't an answer either, because if workers are doing a job they don't want to be in, workmanship will be poor and the tunnel could have structural problems.
Tunnel boring machines may be slow, but they are the only logical way to get this tunnel built. If only it was started years ago, alot of money would have been saved.
The Chunnel went through Blue Clay not bedrock like tunnel 3.
[The Chunnel went through Blue Clay not bedrock like tunnel 3. ]
Bedrock is easyer/faster for boring. Chunnel was something really noone had ever done from engineering point. If you want to know sometning about tunnel boring check out www.tunnelbuilder.com. In Scandinavia that art is quite advanced.
Arti
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe tunnel boring machines can only be used in soild bedrock. I don't know the geology of the East River, but if it's not bedrock, you stuck using another method.
Not true. THey have to be designed for what you're drilling through, that's about it. Any kind of earth that's densely packed will do the job. The Chunnel was bored through clay, not rock.
-Hank
The East River is water.
The East River is water.
That makes the drilling very easy, but preventing cave-ins is a serious problem.
Freezing it will do the trick. But again it's too Soviet. (they actually did something like that in Leningrad)
Arti
You don't drill, you build a dig and drop tunnel. You dredge a trench and sink prefab tunnel sections into it then weld the sections together. Examples include the Ted Williams tunnel, the Bridge Tunnel and the 63rd St. tunnel. Sorry to be serious.
I was going to bring that point up myself. What about the sunken tube method? BART's Transbay tunnel was built that way.
IIRC, most of the East River tunnels as well as the Hudson River tunnels, both vehicular and railroad, were built by the shield method and bored through mostly silt.
I believe that the North River Tubes had to go through rock at least part of the way. (Bergan Hill).
Could one of you explain what the shield method is?
I know what Tunnel Boring Machines do, and I know about mining and blasting. I assume that a sunken tube refers to a preassembled tube sunk into a trench (like the 63rd St boxes were under the East River). But there are variations of that, obviously. If you could explain some of this I would be grateful.
A shield is a boring machine before they were invented.
In essence, yes. A shield provided a seal at the end of the completed construction. It had doors which permitted access to the construction site, through which the material (mined by hand, sometimes with the aid of explosives as appropriate) could be removed. Once a pre-determined length (determined by the size of the cast-iron lining sections) had been excavated the shield would be moved forward and an additional section of lining would be installed. In the event of a blowout the workers in front of the shield would hopefully have enough time to get back into the main tunnel and close the doors; if not, they were probably dead (although some have survived being shot up through the river under all that pressure).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you for this posting. Fascinating stuff.
Another question for you guys: Was the 63rd St Connector (not the line ending at 21rst Street Queensbridge, just the connector portion under 41rst Av dug after 1995) built as cut and cover, or strictly by mining and blasting? Did they use a shield? (I assume that 10 blocks of tunnel would not warrant a TBM). I was not here in NY when they did this, and always wondered about it.
Cut and cover. There was a TV special about tunnels, and it devoted the last part of the program to the Queens connector. One statement was made that any method other than cut and cover was out of the question due to soil conditions, IIRC.
One fellow survived a blowout during construction of the Joralemon St. tunnel. His account is given at the construcion exhibit at the Transit Museum.
Could one of you explain what the shield method is?
You might want to visit Tunneling Under the Hudson River and Ilustration of Incidents in Tunnel Construction on my web site for further details.
The IRT was among the earliest to use that method. The line from 145th & Lenox to 149th and Mott Avenue (Grand Concourse) is in sunken tubes, as is the four track tube between Manhattan and The Bronx on the Lexington/Jerome/Pelham lines.
Forced labor isn't an answer either, because if workers are doing a job they don't want to be in, workmanship will be poor and the tunnel could have structural problems.
That's the reason to not use forced labor?!
>>> Tunnel 3 (the aquaduct) is being bored at the rate of a few feet per hour <<<
Assuming "a few feet" means at least three feet, the tunnel is advancing at least 72 feet per day. Do you really believe the drill and blast shield method is faster than that with a tunnel of this diameter?
Tom
That's why your worker's paradises like eastern Europe and China are environmental hellholes! Face it, Capatalism isn't perfect, but it is far better than any other economic system. BTW, Remember Chernobyl?
[BTW, Remember Chernobyl? ]
Chernobyl is nothing, it just got noticed being so close to WE + Perestroiks. Go to some places in Ural Mountains ...
Arti
I'd switch D & Q as to maintain the express nature of Q. Also what difference would it make if the train via Montique (Q in your proposal) would go via Broadway and switch to exp tracks before Prince Street. Don't really see the need for Nassau St 6th Ave connection.
Arti
That sounds like a plan that could work. Use the bridge only during rush hours. Why do you feel that this will be rejected? It seems to make sense. But then again, there has been a lot of goings on the past decade and a half that boggles the imagination at the short sightedness and stupidity that has taken place. Maybe you can get somebody of means to listen to your suggestion and act on it.
(That sounds like a plan that could work. Use the bridge only during rush hours. Why do you feel that this will be rejected? It seems to make sense.)
Getting the trains off the bridge off peak with equal or improved service requires the construction of two short connections. This involves money and neighborhood disruption.
The full plan also involved a new toll tunnel (for trucks & buses) with 14' 4" clearance from a toll plaza in the Brooklyn Navy Yard (with improved access to the BQE via approach tunnel) to South Street southbound, with access to the south street viaduct (which would be strengthened for trucks). Trucks would then be banned from WillieB and Manny B. Through truck traffic would travel to the Holland and Lincoln Tunnels via the South Street viaduct and West Street, rather than jamming on Canal Street or across the Lower East Side and Soho.
In a different era...
It is such a shame those poor people in Chinatown have to put up with
trucks traveling via Canal and the Manny B. The noise and congestion there is horrible. And the soot from pollution so bad traffic lights painted yellow are turning black. And it's so dangerous crossing, since crosswalks are frequently blocked (NYPD, where are you with don't block the box?)
Something has to be done to ease congestion in the area. If this was one of the trendier sections of the city this wouldn't be happening, but for the people of Chinatown, they are near powerless in the decisions made by the rich and few.
What you describe applies on any commercially active street in Manhattan.
Arti
Something has to be done to ease congestion in the area. If this was one of the trendier sections of the city this wouldn't be happening.
This is exactly what is happening in Midtown, which you, John aka Double Talking Commie called the bastion of the wealthy. Why is it that that the rich and the few that you believe characterize Midtown are putting up with the same crap that your COMRADES in Chinatown are putting up with?
I know it's getting old, but it's still AS TRUE AS ALWAYS:
Better DEAD than RED
>>> Better DEAD than RED <<<
I thought that stupid slogan went out with (Tail Gunner Joe) Mc Carthy. I am certainly glad that all the Russian and East European people who finally overthrew communism, and the progressives in China who are trying to bring about change did not adhere to that slogan.
Tom
You forget Romania.
Arti
Death is better than redness, that doesn't mean there isn't something that's better than redness AND death.
How about "a dead red", or "a red is better off dead".
How difficult engineering wise wil it be to construct tunnels parallelling the bridge and tieing it into DeKalb Complex?
It all depends of how deep the approach tracks are. If most of them are close to the surface they would have to be rebuilt to connect with a deeper river tunnel.
I think finding the money to do this would be much more difficult.
Rutgers-DeKalb needs to be given higher priority now. It's a shame that so much money has been thrown at the Manhattan Bridge, when some of it could have been used for this connection. It would definitely relieve the structural problems on the bridge, even if only partially. The DOT should at least consider the Rutgers-DeKalb connection as a partial solution to the Manhattan Bridge's problems.
[The DOT should at least consider the Rutgers-DeKalb connection as a partial solution to the Manhattan Bridge's problems. ]
This is not DOTs problem.
Arti
Since you have subtalk & bustalk for New York's subway & bus buffs as well as bus or rail buffs who have their own websites on transportation.
I would like to know if the MBTA has the same as does New York City that I mentioned above.
If so, please post the information along with their webpage addresses.
I would greatly appreciate it.
Did you look at our Boston section yet? Doesn't sound like it... Remember there's more to this site than Subtalk and Bustalk. On our Boston page there's a link for other Boston transit sites, the best of which is the New England Transportation site, I don't know if he has a web board though, but I bet if you went there you'd find even more links to Boston transit sites... Also, Subtalk & Bustalk are not limited to New York topics-- we have several Boston transit experts lurking here.
Dave is right, Follo...be sure to take a look in subtalk's Boston sections, and feel free to pick the brains of Boston "experts" like myself. To answer your original question, yes, the MBTA does have its own website like the MTA, go to http://www.mbta.com -Nick
There are two webboars on the MBTA that I know of.
http://www.railroad.net/forums/mbta/ This is a fast growing site more pepole each time I check in.
http://kuchitrains.homestead.com/ this site is no where near as good and the web sites owner is a real pest.
I would like to know if there are now plans to extend the MBTA Commuter rail along these lines.
Franklin line to Milford.
Needham Line to Millis.
Middleboro Line to Buzzards Bay.
Lowell Line to Nashau & Manchester, NH
Haverhill Line to Plaistow, NH
If so, please post the information.
There are no such plans, but I've heard that Franklin line will be abandoned effective this Monday.
Arti
Do you know whay?
For no reason but that change is good.
Arti
Excuse me?
The MBTA Franklin Line is doing very nicely, thank you. There are no plans to abandon it. I'd love to hear where you heard that. Thousands of commuters would be very surprized Monday morning if their trains did not show up.
Wake up, guys. The response was directed to the questioner.
Yep you are right. From now on I decided to make some use of follo's posts, hope someone gets a laugh. If you guys have any objections let me know.
Arti
I'm looking to change the Chris R16 handle. It's getting kinda old, and it needs to be retired. How can I change it and keep all my other information saved?
You can send me email to arrange such things.
* i am thinking about changing my handle to
""los angeles mta ""
How about something appropriate so we'll recognize you. Something like Village Idiot might work.
No no no.. it's Salaam Allah we're talkin...
how's:
"I H8 Transverse Cabs"
"Transverse This"
I H8 Transverse Cabs, too.
south ferry you are wasting your time with that village idiot TRAIN DUDE!!
Dude: You're one of my real buddies on this site, but if you will permit me, you went off the deep end on this one. Salaam has been a standup guy the past few months. I don't know why the rivalry is still so intense. Take it from me, it doesn't help. I'm still trying to restore good relations with a couple of people on this site.
Does anyone out there know if there is a webpage for the MBTA's proposed New Bedford/Fall River Commuter Rail project, if so, what is the webpage address.
WARNING: CONTAINS SPOILER
Well this critic was very disapointed with the new movie Unbreakable. Besides the fact that they were obviously trying to re-make the 6th Sence, the over all premise was rather weak and if put in the context of Die Hard the movie becomes a down right laugh fest, the movie was simply horrible from a railfan perspective.
First of all the plot revolves around Bruce Willis being the only survivor of a train wreck because he is a "super hero", but dosen't know it. (Obviously defeating 3 armies of terrorists never tipped him off.) Anyway, the "derailment" occured on an "Eastrail" train between NY and Philly, 7 miles outside the Philadelphia city limits. The news report said that the accident was in a "very remote" area that would make rescue efforts very difficult. I would challenge anyone to find a remote area along the NEC 7 miles from the city limits. They did appear to be riding in a real coach with very plush 2-2 seating and yellow LED signs, like an ACLEA rehabbed coach, but it did not look like an Amfleet. Furthermore the catenary posts passing by the window looked like it was filmed on the SEPTA Airport line. In the movie everyone on the train was killed ('cept for Bruce). I found this insulting and it can do nothing but give people a bad perception of rail travel. Even in the worst Amtrak crash (Chase MD) only 25 people were killed after a 125 mph collission. Maybe in Europe that many people die, but not over here. Later Bruse breaks into the Eastrail storage facility to look at the wreckage. The cars are clearly Amfleets and are quite mangled. I was wondering where they filmed this (Wilmington? Paoli?) and if the cars were Chase MD vintage. Furthermore, in the scene whee Mr. Glass tries to chase down the camo guy, he walks behind Franklin Field and you get some really nice shots of the hi-line. However this is quickly ruined when the camo guy goes down to the new Regional Rail University City station from the Spruce St. entrance. The entrance is labeled "Subway" and at the bottom you see the guy HOP A TURNSTYLE to get onto a regional rail train (they obviously installed prop styles). At the end we see that Mr. Glass had sabotaged the train and they show him in a flashback getting out of the cab on a real AEM-7 numbered 172 (or something). I could not tell what company they used (Amtrak or SEPTA), but cab doors are kept locked at all times and the conductor only told him "Passengers are not allowed in there" when a real conductor would have probably gone balistic. Also I would be interested to know what station they shot that little scene at because the AEM door appeared to be flush w/ the platform when it is in fact raised up and you need to use the ladder to enter (presenting a problem 4 Mr. Glass). It is also unclear what Mr. Glass could have done to sabotage the train from the cab. My theory is that he fooled w/ the Cab Signaling system. The movie saud derailment, but before the crash the train is blowing its horn which inplies a collission. Fooling w/ the cab signals could have caused a collission OR caused the train to proceede at max speed through a turnout thus causing a derailment. (The horn being used to warn people at a trackside station.)
All in all this movie gets a + for depicting rail travel and rail scenes, but it get 2 -'s for getting most every fact wrong.
It's only a movie! People are sophisticated enough to realise that it is only fiction, with lots of special effects thrown in for the "entertainment" value. Don't take it so as to compare it to the real thing. Look at all those airplane disaster movies! If people believed all that do you think anybody would be flying?
The only reason people fly is beacuse of all the experts that appear on TV and tell them that its so safe. Furthermore, in the movie its just as easy to get things wrong as right. They could have had everyone in just one car be killed. They could have found a way to film the station as a regional rail station. They could have made been a bit more specific about the accident. They could have had it occur in the correct location.
If they did all that, then it would be a movie about trains, and not what it was intended to be. Being specific about all that stuff would take away from the plot.
I just got my Amtrak 2001 travel planner and it is much better than the 2000 planner. This time around there is much less airbrushing (they stil show a P42 on the Vermonter :( ) and they even include some candid shots at stations where real people are boarding trains etc. F40's appear three times, both as the 3 locomotive in a western lash-up w/ P42's leading. Two pics are of the same Cal. Zephyr (p. 53 and last page spread) and another F40 is on Empire Builder on p. 42. There is also a very nice pic of a Cascades trainset. My question about the Cascades is WHY ARE THE CARS SO SMALL. In the pic you can see that they only reach 2/3 of the way up a F59. Amtrak needs to stop buying Euro trash and get some full sized equipment. Metroliner service is included along with ACELA all 3 new ACLEA services.
The best part of the planner is that in includes all the proposed routes and there are lots of them. Here is a run down:
Boston to Portland ME
Extention to Fond du Lac WI
Chicago to Des Moins IA
Skyline Connection from NY to Chigago via Cleveland
Texas Eagle extention to Monterrey Mexico
NEW Crecent Star from DC to Fort Worth (Atlanta needs more trains)
Flordia service train from Boston, along inland route, then down the FEC from Jacksonville to Miami.
Houston to Dallas
Toledo to Buffalo via Canada
Las Vegas Service
and some sort of Fort Worth to El Passo train.
Overall the guide is informative, easy to read, filled w/ great pictures and gives one a great feeling about the future of rail travel.
Did anyone else get a similar message in their mailbox from some lowlife named train_crash@hotmail.com:
the israel govt has announced plans to purchase the new york city transit redbirds fore their jerusalem subway system. They say that by using these cars they can have added assurance that the jews will be killed in collisions thereby saving Arafat the bother
Now, I despise Arafat as much as anyone who hates terrorism would, but this message was uncalled for. I was wondering if I was singled out or if there were other recipients.
Never publicize your e-mail and the junk will not come. As you can see I don't mine.
Arti
I don't want to take that drastic step. I enjoy occasional e-mail from my fellow subtalk friends.
I got burned once while posting on Usenet, never again will I leave my e-mail address unattended.
Arti
I only once had junk mail because I posted my e-mail to Subtalk.
So I post my e-mail to subtalk, but mask it on USENET.
Better safe than sorry, I had to change my e-mail address, fortunately I was the admin, but still the inconvenience to let people know....
Arti
You could just do what I do - set up an e-mail on some free provider like Yahoo just for subtalk. I don't use this address for any other purpose.
subfan
That's the same thing I do. A very easy solution. BUT DON'T USE HOTMAIL, talk about spam central. I highly recommend IWON. You might win some money.
Peace,
ANDEE
Chris, I did not receive this e-mail, but I am sorry you had to read something so awful. I am not Jewish, but I still think that message is sick. -Nick
No, I haven't. Sounds like it might be the work of a certain banned poster, but that's purely speculation on my part - the email address is similar to one of the handles he used and the sentiments are consistent with his statements here on this board.
You might want to contact the hotmail administration people... not sure if they can do anything about such crap but it's worth a try.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree, it's pretty clear who that came from. Thanks for posting his email address so we can all spam filter him now...
was that banned poster the one named "subway crash means money for transit"...I haven't seen him lurking here in awhile. -Nick
Well he was banned. He could be lurking around though.
Arti
He was, he went away, came back as Happy Birthday, and disappeared shortly after. He must be reading and not posting so he can get e-mail addresses.
This person's attempts to remain anon_e_mouse have failed. I think you and Dave are correct and would have posted likewise if you hadn't first.
He sent me some other nonsense a few weeks ago which I quickly deleted and paid no mind to it. But he didn't send me what you described. Sounds like the same guy who Dave P banned from here who went something like under the name of "Crash Means Cash for Transit."
I get spam quite frequently, usually of the make-money-fast or pornographic variety. I delete it and pay it no more attention.
Someone has Just shown up at ne.transportation useing the name subway_crash. He has posted close to 100 comments about subway crashs most them very dim. He even asked if there was a crash on the silver line in Boston.
He's posted a few to misc.transport.urban-transit as well. I recognized him immediately.
Here is one of his many fake newspaper articles.
here on that is on topic
An unidentified man was killed early today when he was struck by an MBTA Orange Line train on the elevated structure over Washington Street in Jamaica Plain. Police at the scene said the victim, who was wearing a set of headphones attached to a small casette tape player, apparently didn't hear the train as it approached. Authorities believe the man missed a train at the Green Street station and began walking along the trestle toward his destination when he was struck and mangled by the train. MBTA officials checking after the accident found blood on a four-car train that had passed by the accident scene a short time earlier.Police were called to the scene shortly before 1 a.m. after a passerby noticed blood and flesh on the street below the overhead structure and called for help from a nearby tavern.
This is one reason I think Dave P. is right for cracking down on off-topic post
Sounds like a real cocoa puff, monitoring and surveillance are indicated.
Same high quality postings, different name. LOL
Now the R-16 is offical retired, the end of the world, since I have a similar name too I might take the R-16 is to my arms.....Chistopher R-16 nahh. I love the R-62.. Lets all say good bye to the R-16 may it rest in peace.
You can always take the R16's IRT cousin, the R17, as your own. It doesn't suffer the same bad rep as my beloved rolling lemons do. I really chose the nick more on childhood memories I have riding that class on the J line, more than a love for the car itself. The only thing I loved about the R16 besides it's window seats, was it's colorful signs. It retained all the old colors/routes that seemed mysterious to me in the early-mid 80's. I never could find the TT, QJ, MM, EE or KK on any subway map of the day. I despised the circular railfan window because it was higher than those on the R27/30, and i was 10 before I could see out of it without standing on the tip of my toes. That's why I loved those huge windows on the pre-GOH R42's, but they were a rarity on the J line in the late 70's/early 80's.
The R27s were utter garbage. Why would you defame your own charactor like that? The 8173 didn't last more than a week in the red livery before they junked it. 6398 is doing nicely, thanks. I'll keep that number.
I used the R16 nick for nearly a year. My reputation as a lover of awful rolling stock is secure. LOL.
Next year, I become Chris R44 ...
To coin a phrase from a union comrade, are you going to be a "formerly known as Mr R44", or do you favor the farting noises from the Westcodes?
No, that's one feature I hate about the R44. I like them because they are the fastest 75' cars running.
The R16s were "awful rolling stock" because in their advanced age they were not maintained and were neglected. Had they been maintained properly I'm sure that they would not have been better or worse than any of the others.
I agree that severe neglect made the R16 what it was....an awful car. But there were problems with it from day #1, like the inability to be used in snowstorms. They were usually sent to the protection of the Canarsie line and Standards x-ferred to the Jamaica line at the mere hint of flurries in the 50's and 60's.
Why these cars could not handle snowstorms along the Jamaica El?
Train#1920Mike
I've heard the original door engines on the R-16s didn't hold up in snowy weather; i.e., the doors would malfunction.
Which might explain why they were all replaced in 1969.
I am also puzzled, why couldn't they handle snowstorms on an el? And why only the R16s? I suppose standards would be better in a snowstorm mainly because of they were heavyweights.
Well if you favor being named after crappy rolling stock then your handle should be "Chris R68A".
No doubt about it!
zman179:
There is even crappier rolling stock than the R-68As. The R-68s. These cars have the reputation of running like crap from the little information that I have.
BMTJeff
I've ridden just about every type of subway car that are in passenger service today (except R142) and I don't know if I can speak for the general riding public when I say... "SO WHAT!" To me the R68/R68A run as well as any other car. Yes I remember there were postings on this board on the lack of acceleration or the tendency of this particular car-type to run like "crap" blah blah blah. "Crap"? Don't most subway cars regardless of the type, bring passengers to their destinations? As long as they can do that on a regular basis and don't break down as frequently as other cars have been in the past, I don't consider them to be "crap". Also they don't look as horrible as those Rustbirds. My opinion.
Number 7 Rider:
I do agree with you that many of the "Redbirds" (Rustbirds) look exhausted at this point. I was only repeating what I've heard from a T/O some years ago about the R-68s. Otherwise all I care about is that the train no matter what the consist is gets me from point A to point B. If I saw a train of "Low Vs" pull up to the platform on an IRT line as long as they were in good running order I would take the train to my destination.
BMTJeff
Which is why the scrapping of all remaining R30 redbirds in 1993 was an incredibly foolish move, given the car shortage that exists today. Yeah, they had no AC, but hey got you from point A to point B as well as any car in the system. I hope the city retains SOME of the IRT redbirds, in the best condition, even after all R142 cars have been put into service.
I think that is going to happen.
Train#1921Mike
Chris R27-30:
You're right that scrapping all of the R-30s was an incredibly foolish move by the brainless people of the TA. Many of them were probably still in good enough condition at the time and could have been retrofitted with air conditioning and in all likelihood they would still be in service to this day. They were being pennywise (Not spending money on the R-30s and scrapping them instead.) and pound foolish (Not having enough rolling stock to deal with heavy passenger traffic during rush hour.) The TA can be very stupid sometimes.
BMTJeff
I believe adding AC was impossible to the R30's. Even without AC, they could've still been saved. They wouldn't be any more uncomfortable for 9 months out of the year, and using them during rush hours on a short line like the Canarsie minimizes the discomfort. During the rush hours, most people want to get home as fast as possible. An R30 with fans only is no big deal.
Chris R27-30:
You're right that the R-30s could have been used on short runs such as the Canarsie line even without air conditioning. It probably would have been possible to install air conditioning in the R-30s if the proper kind of units were found for them.
BMTJeff
Yes, the TA can do some very dumb things at times. Like sending the Triplexes to slaughter when they were still in tip-top shape.
I think that they sent the Multi-section cars to the scrap heap when they could have been used for another 10 to 15 years or so.
BMTJeff
The multis had some braking problems towards the end, IIRC. It's a real shame that none were saved. At least we still have three Triplex units intact.
Steve B-8AVEXP:
The Multi-section car could have been retrofitted with beter brakes and perhaps they would have lasted another 10 to 15 years.
BMTJeff
Your're probably right. Sadly, we'll never know for sure now.
My apologies. For me it's hard to acknowledge that such a recent car can be considered as "crap". I guess you have to be a train operator to really know why it is considered "crap".
zman 179 bases his statement as a NYCT motorman. The 68A's have horrible brakes, before and after linking/SMS. A motorman literally has to fight that train in order for it to stop. The R68, especially since they have been linked, brakes much better.
Bill hit the nail right on the head.
To illustrate how slow (and bad) the brakes are on an R68A, consider the following:
When you apply the brakes on any other car class, they react almost immediately. When you first apply the brakes on an R68A, they don't react for almost 3 seconds. And on top of that, the majority of brake valves on R68A's are very stiff to operate. Now 3 seconds may not sound like a lot but when you're trying to stop a train, it's a very uncomfortable feeling. If you had a car that took 3 seconds to apply the brakes, then your car wouldn't be around for very long that's for sure.
Also consider this experiment to show you how slow reacting the 68A brakes are. Take the brake valve on any train(except the R44 since it uses a different air system. Regular cars use 80 lbs. psi max, R44 uses 110 lbs. psi max) and fully release the brakes. After all the brakes are released, place the brake handle in full service(maximum service brake). It would take no more than 2 seconds for the air to fully apply. Do the same thing on an R68A and it takes 5 seconds. The R44 has to apply 30 more pounds and it still beats the R68A.
If I had to operate an R68A daily, I'd be popping Advil's into my mouth like they were M&M's.
Hmm.... very interesting. Guess those train operators should be commended for making it feel as though it's like other cars... kinda. For me it's hard to acknowledge such a recent car can be "crap". Alright from now on I'll no longer defend the R68/A... nor will I say anything bad about it. I still enjoy the spaciousness and the exterior appearance nevertheless.
Hippos. It's hard to get them going, and they are hard to stop.
You mean the R68's don't have this problem - just the R68A's?
Why did the TA let Bombardier & Kawakasaki use different brake systems on identical cars?
For many years, the TA split orders of components between tow or more vendors. Most significantly:
Propulsion - Westinghouse (Adtranz) or GE
Air Brake - WABCO or NYAB or Westcode (R-44)
HVAC - Thermoking (Trane) or Stone Safety
Doors - Vapor or WABCO or Westcode (R-46)
Aside from providing an atmosphere of competetive bidding, the TA is never captive to the whims of one vendor.
As for the R-68 / R-68A braking, it is true that the R-68 does have a better braking system. The R-68s use NYAB while the R-68A use WABCO. However, during their 12 year overhaul, the R-68s were converted to WABCO brake valves (removed from the linked R-62s). This was done because the WABCO electric self lapper was more reliable than the NYAB unit. Fortunately, after the conversion the R-68 got all of the benifits of the WABCO brake valves without the negative performance problems. One big drawback of the R-68A seems to be in the blending of dynamic and air brakes. However, the major problem seems to be that when coming to a stop, if you ease off on the brake and then try to grab more - the R-68A tends to react slowly and may seem like it's running away. Once an operator, knows this, he can compensate by the way he operates. The R-68 does not have this operating characteristic.
So the problem is in the operating unit package? Do you have
any guesses what it is, and why it is confined to the 68A order
and not a problem with other WABCO cars?
I'm not an engineer but if viewed in the context of an electrical problem, the system reacts slowly to changes. Perhaps there is too much air volume needed to make rapid changes in pressure so either to much capacity in the line too much resistance or not enough volume.
I remember complaints when the R68 (not A) were first introduced
of sluggish brakes. The popular opinion was that NYAB had
re-used the same brake pacakge as it supplied with the R62A
order and since the cars were 25' longer, the R magnet
valve ports weren't large enough to handle the extra SAP volume.
I wasn't aware of the same reports on the R68A with the WABCO
packages. If what zman179 says is true, that it really takes
5 seconds to build up full service SAP, that's almost as bad
as running w/o B2. I would think this would be considered an
operating defect and a remedy would be sought.
Oops - I meant Kawakasaki & Westinghouse/Amrail.
Nope. You spelled it wrong. It's "Kawasaki"
running on...
Never! I do have standards.
Anyway, the Westinghouse R68's are worse than the Kawasaki R68A's, so if i was forced at gunpoint to accept the R68, I'd chose the 68A.
Excluding train operation, I'd choose the R68 over the R68A.
I just like the sound of the air releasing much better on the 68 rather than that dull hiss of the 68A.
As a railfan(and T/O), my favorite without a doubt is the R38. I love this train.
I chose the 68A because it isn't as sluggish as the 68. Then again, so is a Sherman tank.
The BMT standard was a Sherman tank. Built like one, anyway. Nothing could hurt it. Then there was the Triplex aka Big Bertha.
Ay! I love that hiss! It makes it sound "Stiff."
running on...
Hey Hey Hey!!!
running on...
I think the R27/30 were no worse than any other rolling stock during the defered maintance era. The later GE R30 Redbirds (8250 to 8411) were quite an improvement, but admittedly not great. The GE R27/30's problem was simply that the GE controllers (like the GE R16's) were inherently no good, and the lousy maintance. The Westinghouse R27/30's were much better albeit those lead weighted controllers. Even in their worst days in the Eastern Division, they were 10 times better than a pre-GOH R42. Between the dark cars, dead motors & dead compressors, dispatchers were always afraid to run them in 4 car service and in the dead of winter the R42's would freeze up on the M shuttle. And now these cars are much better, but not great. If the R27/30's received the same TLC/GOH as their IRT Redbird cousins (the TA did not want to do it since air conditoning would have made the cars too heavy among other reasons) we would be honoring these cars today like the IRT Redbirds. The R27/30's were scrapped sooner than they should have been. But for political reasons the TA wanted to brag that the entire fleet (less the R33 singles) was air conditioned. The R27/30's barely made 30 years of service. You have IRT cars over 40 years old, others approaching 40. I fully admit my bias toward the R27/30 because in the defered maintance days, they always got me there, albeit slow. I never had a breakdown on an R27/30 which I couldn't get myself out of. I lost P wire on an R46, had stuck brakes on an R42 because of a defective self lapper and had an energised "A" wire on an R32 during the dark days. I admit that I am biased for another reason: I have the distinction of operating the last R27/30 on the BMT. It was a Redbird on an M interval out of Bay Pkwy over 10 years ago. Then it was sent to the IND joining the others. The R27/30's always looked out of place on the IND in my opinion. I never got used to them there. And the non overhauled ones just couldn't handle the IND because of it being a high speed railroad in comparison to the BMT.
I totally agree. 50-60 R30's should have been kept. It would allow for an increase of Canarsie line service, which is badly needed today, without having to cut service on the J and M lines. No AC? Big deal. Limit them to rush hour only runs from June to September. Or simply do all the SMS work on the AC'ed cars in the cooler months so the R30's can rest during summer.
Like the Triplexes, these cars were retired before their time.
Bill,
I agree with you. Most of those cars were run into the ground and thrown away like garbage. It makes me angry to this day, especially when I see all of the R68s on the road...
The GE R27s had the second-generation MCM group which was much
better than the one under the R16-22 classes. The R30s with
SCM were better still. The loss of the R30 fleet, including
a bunch that the TA painted a few months before scrapping,
was a fundamentally silly thing.
Bill, you say you ran the last R27/30 on the BMT more than ten years ago. It couldn't have been much more than ten years, because the last R27/30 I remember seeing on original BMT trackage was on the 'L' on July 14, 1990. All others at that time were on the 'C'.
You're right when you refer to the IND as a high-speed railroad compared to the BMT. When the 27/30s finally made it over to IND trackage, they burned rubber on the 6th Avenue deep bore and CPW, to say nothing of the Jamaica Bay trestle.
These cars were mostly confined to runs on local runs along Broadway and 4th Avenue, and ancient elevated structures in their BMT days, so many people never realized just how fast they could be.
I saw R30's on the L after September 1990 (I know this because it was just after they opened the Manhattan Bridge H tracks for a 3 month tease). They were gone from the J and M for at least 18 months before that.
Thats just great!!!:) Whats is going to be next time? ChrisR42?? :):)
Train#1918Mike
Perhaps, but it MUST be Chris R42-pre GOH. Gigantic bulkhead route signs, blue stripes, darth vader brakes, blue doors/turquoise seats....ahhh those were the days
Well at least the Pre GOH R32 and R40 should come before the R42....
Train#1919Mike
Thats just great!!!:) Whats is going to be next time? ChrisR42?? :):)
Train#1918Mike
Perhaps, but it MUST be Chris R42-pre GOH. Gigantic bulkhead route signs, blue stripes, darth vader brakes, blue doors/turquoise seats....ahhh those were the days
Well at least the Pre GOH R32 and R40 should come before the R42....
Train#1919Mike
This is my long awaited trip report about my trip home on Tuesday, 11/21. I remembered to take careful notes. Enjoy.
My train arrived basically on time. There was an F40 at each end so that eliminated the prospect of a Railfan Window. The day was rather grey so that precluded photographs. I boraded the train w/ about 40 Amhearst area students and we were informed that there were 60 people each getting on at Springfield and Hartford and our train would be sold out. We entered the Boston Line at Palmer w/ no problems and made our way to Springfield terminal. They made an announcement several times that this train was the RESERVED Vermonter train 55 to NYC and no other tickets would be accepted. We started to pull out when we had to stop again for 3 idiots still in the waiting area. After they got on we pulled out and down Amtrak rails. We were zipping along when just over the CT river bridge the Conductor started to raise the Springfield line dispatch. Some lady going to Essex Jct. (north, in Vermont) Had gotten on the Southbound Vermonter (MORON!). The worst part is that the 2 Vermonter trains pass eachother just south of Springfield station. The C/O called the Hartford station agent and he arranged alternate bus transportation. What an idiot, they only said train 55 only like 5 times.
While passing through Hartford yard I notices a tank car that had been covered in hot pink paint. Didn't know if it was intentional or graffitti.
We were stuck in Hartford for about 10-15 min waiting for everyone to board. When we pulled out I happened to notice that the train was on time! We must have been really flying between there and Springfield.
I was also listing the Interlocking names on the Springfield Line. Here's what I got:
SPRING
FIELD
HAYDEN
WINDSOR
HART
?
?
QUARRY?
HOLT
WALL or WALT
CEADAR?
Could someone confirm these? And what is the Purpose of WALL interlocking? Its just on a single track w/ no switches.
Also this annoying todler w/ a toy train whistle got on at Hartford and was blowing it in concert w/ the train's horn.
All was well at Shore Line Jct. and saw the DS phaze break markers. We pulled into Track 3 at New Haven. New Haven seems to be in a state of meltdown. 4 tracks are out of service and they are ripping up the old-new Amtrak engine terminal, All the catenary has been removed and only F40's are being serviced there. The AEM-7's are now being stored on the old old engine pit just west of SS75. If you want 4 AEM's in one frame go to New Haven. I also heard the East Haven HBD on my scanner.
With sunlight fading we pulled out of New Haven. I noticed that new constant tention crapenary had been installed just past the interlocking south of the station.
About 45 min later in Stamford we were just about to pull out when the head end anounced that we were getting an Absoulte Block signal at CP 233. This signal is only given when the cab signaling system has failed and I had never seen it before. Lucky for me an MU was due in on the next track and I saw his signal giving Absolute Block. The AB signal is displayed by the 2 reds alternatly flashing w/ the middle green. Very cool. We got another AB signal at CP 232.
By the time we reached Amtrak rails at SHELL it was pitch black out. We had to stop at HAROLD's home signal to wait for the LIAR parade. Out in the blackness I saw a wonderous sight. What must have been 2 14 car trains went by on the LIAR main line to the suburbs. All you could see was the marker lights and the long window band w/ an un countable number of people inside. Inside HAROLD I was greeted by several large signal bridges filled up w/ PRR position lights. Just b4 the tunnel entrance I saw a new bi-level train litting at the Hunter's Point station.
At Penn Station we were put on track 5 and I walked down to the end of the platform. I got a great view of the Diagonal platform and a whole host of double slip switches all hissing and clanking w/ new linups (its 6 PM now). I watched an NEC NU train and a Midtown Direct train both leave. Empty platforms are not left empty for long. As usual my train emptied and was then filled w/ a set set of people.
We departed NYP on time and zipped through the tubes. I saw an westbound PATH train entering the yard off the eastbound tracks. It appered to be full of people. Any explanation?
Just before Trenton I heard a very funny radio exchange. Out train asked another train (I think it was a Keystone) where he was. And he said "I'm comming up right behind you" and some other funny things. We were on thr local track and second later an E60 w/ 3 cars in tow passed us on the express track. Our engineer ask the other engineer (who sounded old and grizzly) if he had a hot date. The irony was that CTEC decided to hold his train at FAIR and let us in first so we passed him back. Of course the other engineer was saying how kind he was for waiting up for us etc etc.
At Trenton I watched 2 kids down a cigerette in under a minute.
We arrived about 10-15 minutes in Philly and I changed to an R3 SEPTA to ride downtown. Theye were striped Silverliners and I got a picture of an un-used cab position. (The Cab signals are active in all cabs at all times). Well that's my trip. Please respond to the questions.
The PCCs are back for a limited time. On the old Historic Trolley route, these holiday trollies run from 10:00 to 5:00pm and on Thursdays through Sundays until December 31. It's a great ride, I remember riding it yesterday, the first one I have ever ridden. Also, the Kawasaki trollies have such narrow doors. The PCC trolley doors opened to one big doorway, and the Kawasakis have two very narrow doorways in the front and back. What's up with that, how can some people manage?
1. The K cars brought back "blinker doors", just like the original PCC cars.
2. The plural of trolley is trolleys, not trollies. When Y is preceeded by a vowel, an S is added. When Y is not preceeded by a vowel, the Y is dropped and ies is added.
How long does a round trip on the route that the PCCs run on take?
Also, does it pass through many streetcar intersections?
-Robert King
does it pass through many streetcar intersections?
Zero. The only other trolley lines running trolleys are the subway-surface lines which run under Market Street west of City Hall and loop around City Hall underground.
I forgot about that. What I really meant to ask was if the holiday PCC service runs through any intersections where there are streetcar tracks and switches in place but not necessarily in service. There's nothing quite like pounding over special trackwork in a PCC...
Yes, at the following locations:
12th St (southbound) - Girard Ave (pull-ins only), Noble St, siding at Arch St, Bainbridge St, Snyder Ave, with trackless crossings at Tasker St, Morris St and Snyder Ave.
11th St (northbound) - Snyder Ave, Bainbridge St, Noble St, Girard Ave (pull-outs only), with trackless crossings at Snyder Ave, Morris St and Tasker St.
AFAIK the cars are being stored at Germantown Depot due to construction on Girard Ave. When that construction is completed (allegedly this week), cars will return to Elmwood Depot. I saw 2799 being trucked to Germantown last Monday.
What is the exact routing of the PCC service? From where to where?
Carl M.
You're wrong right there. The Subway-Surface Routes are under Juniper Street, a good block-and-a-half from 11th Street. So there is no other streetcar contact.
Unlike 2 years ago, the fare is 50˘, and some trolleys will be going all the way to Bigler St.
I had heard that the cars will only travel south to Snyder Ave. This was the terminal in the past unless an illegally parked car blocked the turn at Snyder Ave (which happens frequently), which forces the trolley to continue down to Bigler St.
I was flipping through my Winter Timetable and I was shcked to see a relitive darth of Unreserved train on the NEC. Several NE Direct trains have become ACELA Regional and have become all Reserved. Most of the Inland Route shuttle trains are now Reserved (try to fathom that!) Many more regular NE Direct trains have become Reserved. I fear the only thing that will be unreserved will be Clockers and Keystone trains.
Well, most of us want to be guaranteed a seat when we pay for a ticket. Do you like to stand for three or four hours without being able to sit down? I certainly don't. Nor do I want to have someone holding on to my seat, lurching into me each time the train takes a curve, for that same period of time. Amtrak is responding to the wants and needs of its customers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd rather stand than NOT GET TO MY DESTINATION. Amtrak dosen't realize that not everyone can plan 2 months in advance or get to a ticket office. I want to have to option of showing up at the station if circumstances force me to do so. BTW once I got on the Vermonter w/o a reservation (w/ several other ppl) and they let us get off the train and run into New Haven station to get a ticket.
>>> I want to have to option of showing up at the station if circumstances force me to do so. <<<
You can always ride the "dog" which takes no reservations.
Tom
dog?
He means the Greyhound bus. And it indeed does not have reserved seating.
-turnstiles
The mere thought of riding a bus for 4 hours makes me sick.
Peace,
ANDEE
How about 6 hours, and the customary stop at Arby's? If you thought Amfleet cars were like sardine cans...
That's sick, dude!
I have a few questions about reservations and tickets on Amtrak. First, how can I make a reservation w/o buying a ticket and then claim this reservation on the train. How much time do I have to make a non-ticket reservation before I board the train? If I have a ticket and I miss my train can I use that ticket on another train of the same type? Do I have to make a new reservation or turn in the old ticket all together. Can a conductor make me a reservation on board if it is clear that the train will not be sold out? Is there any way to ride standby for sold out trains?
First, how can I make a reservation w/o buying a ticket and then claim this reservation on the train.
You can't. You can make a reservation over the phone but you must pick up and pay for the ticket within 24-48 hours at an Amtrak ticket booth (not necessarily the one where you will board).
If I have a ticket and I miss my train can I use that ticket on another train of the same type? Do I have to make a new reservation or turn in the old ticket all together.
You have to make a new reservation and exchange the ticket; under certain circumstances you will also have to pay a penalty, usually between $25 and $75. If sleeper accomodations are included you will also lose ALL of the sleeper cost. The only exception to this is if you miss the train because of a missed connection from another Amtrak train.
Can a conductor make me a reservation on board if it is clear that the train will not be sold out?
No, not as far as I know.
Is there any way to ride standby for sold out trains?
I think they have that arrangement on certain long-distance trains, but for the NEC I believe the answer is no.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can't. You can make a reservation over the phone but you must pick up and pay for the ticket within 24-48 hours at an Amtrak ticket booth (not necessarily the one where you will board).
I know that you can make just a reservation. My friend has done it and I have seen other people on Reserved train tell the C/R a reservation number and then pay cash there on the spot (they also take credit). I was wondering how you do it and how the C/R knows the # you give is valid.
I have also noticed that Reserved ticketes still say that they are good until 6 months later. Go figure. Amtrak should use the reservation where you buy a reservation and a generic ticket. The reservation would cost like $5 (or less depending on how you buy your tickets) and you could miss your train and just get a new reservation.
First, how can I make a reservation w/o buying a ticket and then claim this reservation on the train.
I don't know if there's an official policy, but ... why would you want to do this?
Note that when boarding some trains at some stations, they check your tickets before letting you on the train at all, so in those cases you need to have a paper ticket to wave at them.
How much time do I have to make a non-ticket reservation before I board the train?
What's "a non-ticket reservation" vs. "a reservation"?
As long as there are still seats for sale there's no restriction about how long beforehand you need to make the reservation. I have accidentally bought a reserved ticket for a train after it already left the station I was boarding at. (I promptly went to the station's ticket counter and exchanged it for a seat on the next train to depart.)
If I have a ticket and I miss my train can I use that ticket on another train of the same type? Do I have to make a new reservation or turn in the old ticket all together.
For unreserved tickets you can use the same ticket on any other unreserved train for the year that the ticket is valid, no exchange needed; if the ticket was for an off-peak fare and you want to take a peak fare train you must pay the difference, but you can do this on board.
For reserved tickets you must (at least officially) physically exchange the ticket in for a new ticket if you wish to ride another reserved train, but you can do the exchange at any time up to a year after your original travel date. Getting the new ticket is the same as making a new reservation. Again, if the ticket was for off-peak and you want to take a peak train, you need to pay the difference.
Some/many conductors will let you use a reserved ticket on the "wrong" train as long as the train isn't too full, but this probably doesn't work well if they check your tickets before boarding.
If you want to use a reserved ticket on an unreserved train, I guess you can do that without an exchange, but you'll probably be losing some money on the deal.
Can a conductor make me a reservation on board if it is clear that the train will not be sold out?
Probably.
Is there any way to ride standby for sold out trains?
Not that I've heard of.
The question about riding stand by raises another: does Amtrak overbook its reserved trains like the airlines?
does Amtrak overbook its reserved trains like the airlines?
No. This is why, if you miss a reservation for a sleeper, you will still pay for that sleeper (unless, of course, you missed because of a delay in connecting from another Amtrak train), and why they assess penalty fees for other missed reservations.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But will sell you an upgrade on the train if there is one available. If there is a seat in custom or a room in the sleeper you can buy that upgrade on board.
Yes, you're right about that. I've never done it, but there are a couple of times I wish I had.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Friday was a nice, brisk day and a good idea to check out several things on the rails. The LIRR was running a regular weekday schedule, but with off-peak fares all day. This gave me an opportunity to ride an express train from Great Neck, with no stops until Penn.
The train was a few minutes late, and there were crowds of shoppers heading into the city, plenty of people already on the train from Pt.Washington.
The speed of the train was pretty good, though not as fast as the Mineola-Jamaica stretch on the main line.
It was a nice ride though, with the scenery of Little Neck looking quite nice. It got a bit slow around the Sunnyside yards, and we used the usual tunnel to Penn, I was hoping we'd get to use the tunnel reserved for rush hour and Amtrak trains.
I walked on over to the 6th ave line at 34th street and got a Q. Even though it was freezing outside the 34th-6th ave station was fairly warm, a warm breeze coming from the dash. The Q came and it was pretty empty, and I was able to get the window. Nice speed through the dash (I am addicted to the 34th-W4th dash). The view from the Manhattan Bridge was nice, I could see all the way into Queens with the good visibility, one thing that would be missed if the Manny B tracks were abandoned for the tunnel. Also the switches before Dekalb are very interesting. At Atlantic, an out of service R68 train was sitting on the northbound track. Then a very fast ride in the tunnels under Prospect Park, which seem to be bored in old style BMT fashion, with alot of leaks. Nice ride to Brighton, passing a few D's.
Changed to the Q in the other direction, which for a while before leaving had some doors open, but not all. Then 5 minutes before leaving all the doors opened. I'd never seen that before.
The ride back was also nice, with a clear view of the Empire State Building looking north from the window.
The switches after Dekalb are quite interesting. One of the first switches appears to have a trackway going to a lower level, and it's appears unused and full of litter. Is this the track leading to the currently unused H tracks?
Got off the Q at 34th and got a D train, which I had to wait awhile for (this was around 1pm). It arrived pretty crowded. I took it up CPW, which was still impressive speedwise, even with the Hippos. Had to stand almost the whole way to 206th. I never took the D all the way to it's terminal in the Bronx. Pretty boring ride though. There were alot of stops (we ran local). However the speed in between stations was pretty impressive. I guess the express "D" must pick up a good pace. The tubes under the river were fairly short, but were pretty fast. The train on the way back had a leak of some brown fluid all over the right side, appears to be ballast from the lights but I don't know. It took out at least 40% of the seats, whatever this brown liquid was. Several cleaners were on trying to place buckets and clean it up.
The R68's didn't seem that slow at all though.
I also rode on the A train down CPW (got off at 125th for A). It was a packed R44. Got off at Canal for E to WTC.
WTC mall was crowded. Went on over to Chinatown after that, and got the uptown N. The platform was packed (this was around 4pm). After five minutes an "N" of R32's arrived but it is packed, and I waited for the next train, an "R" of R32's. I got off at 42nd and down the ramps for the 7X. The 7 was much less crowded than on a regular weekday, and fast down the middle track. We lost a few minutes before Willets, there was red signal on the switch before Willets. I never saw any train crossing in front of us, but the local we passed earlier had caught up. Then we had to wait again outside the tunnel under Roosevelt avenue, another red signal. The tower at Flushing should leave a track open for the express. 9 times out of ten we wait outside, and lose time while train on the local track goes ahead.
Midtown was busy, and the "cut and cover" stations were quite chilly, like those on BMT Broadway. But the 7 train station at 42nd was warmer.
The switches after Dekalb are quite interesting. One of the first switches appears to have a trackway going to a lower level, and it's appears unused and full of litter. Is this the track leading to the currently unused H tracks?
Yes, it is. Check out the track maps on this site for more information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Changed to the Q in the other direction, which for a while before leaving had some doors open, but not all. Then 5 minutes before leaving all the doors opened. I'd never seen that before."
That's done at certain terminals on very cold days to keep the interiors of the cars warm and sheltered from the wind. Usually, all doors don't open up until the signal to leave is given. Then all doors are quickly opened then closed. (I spent far too many winter mornings sitting on the A train in Far Rockaway wishing that even the one door wasn't open.)
It was pretty cold on friday, so I can definately understand. I wish they did this in the front car of a Manhattan bound 7X waiting to leave Flushing in the morning. Not for the cold, but because the stench from the sewers above makes the first car stink! Nothin' like the smell of fish and rotten fruit in the morning!
Since I've adopted a new car class to call my own, I thought I'd take the opportunity to ask a few questions about these cars.
1. Besides their car numbers, are their any mechanical/cosmetic differences between R27's and R30's?
2. Were any R27's given a GOH and painted in the redbird scheme in the 1980's? I never paid much attention to car numbers until about 1992, and at that time I can only remember seeing cars with R30A numbers, running on their last gasp on the C local.
3. What color were they originally painted? That cranberry red that showed up on a lot of cars in the early 60's?
Thanks for all the info you could provide.
>>>3. What color were they originally painted?<<<
They were originally dark green.
R27/30 at the Transit Museum
Peace,
ANDEE
Where in the Transit Museum is the R27/30? Don't tell me downstairs, I mean where on the platform. Which side and at what point of the platform? Thanks, in advance.
The R27/30 is at the block(far end of the platform) on the left.
Right. 8506 hasn't moved much over the years. Everything else has moved at some point or another, particularly when R-16 #6387 made her return to the Museum about 3 years ago. Someone tells me an R-32 pair was used to push 6387 in, and she gapped going across the switch. Main lights were lost until the Museum's resident car mechanic replaced a defective part (can't recall what).
-Stef
Did I forget to say the Lo-V Motor Cars were on the same consist as 6387, an R-32 pair used as a pusher, and a diesel locomotive pulling the other cars? Strange.
The Lo-Vs also arrived the day 6387 returned, stayed a year at Court Street, before being replaced by the returning trailer car (4902) that had been sent to Coney Island Yard the year before.
-Stef
Is there anywhere I can go to get a complete roster of all cars currently residing at the Court St. museum? I haven't been there since 1990 ...
I can break it down for you:
On the IRT Platform, where the smaller cars are:
Diesel Locomotive 10 - 1959
Manhattan El Car G - 1878 (on loan from Branford)
Brooklyn Union El Cars, 1273, 1404, and 1407 - 1903 and 1907
Steeple Cab Electric Locomotive 5 - 1910
IRT Lo-V Trailer 4902 - 1916
BMT Q-Type 1612C - 1938
BOT R-12 5760 - 1948
BOT R-15 6239 - 1950
NYCTA R-17 6609 - 1955
NYCTA R-33 World's Fair 9306 - 1963
On the BMT/IND Platform Reside:
BMT D-Type 6095ABC - 1927
NY Municipal Railway AB Standard 2204 - 1916
BOT R-1 100 - 1930
BOT R-4 484 - 1933
BOT R-7A (R-10 Pilot Car) 1575 - 1938, rebuilt 1947 following wreck
BOT R-11 (NYCTA R-34) 8013 - 1949
NYCTA R-16 6387 - 1954
NYCTA R-30 8506 - 1961
Hope this helps,
-Stef
Thanks. It's a shame that no IRT Hi-V's or BMT multisections are there ...
But at least two Hi-Vs were saved & exist somewhere else.
The Multi-Sect weren't so lucky.
Mr t__:^)
Dah, that is a no brainer, since Divison A is on one side (with home made gap fillers) and Div. B is on the other.
oh i can do this myself! ( change my handle ) to all of the threads.
Turn to page 60 of your travel planner and please read along w/ me.
"Tipping is certainly not required, but it is a much appreciated way to let employees know they've made your trip more enjoyable."
I wonder if this policy change is a result of a collective bargaining agreement. Hell, next time I ride I'm going to go up and tip the engineer (Although he probably deserves it the least, pay wise.)
AFAIK, this applies only to sleeping car and food service people. Conductors and the locomotive crew are under a different set of rules. Check the context of that statement... since I don't have the brochure I can't say for sure, but I suspect it's talking about the diner or some such.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Its in the "Welcome Aboard" section under the Special Policies subsection. Other subsections include Baggage and Boarding, Baggage Requirements, Checked Baggage, Auto Train Boarding. Other Speical Policies include Comment Cards and Smoking. All sections (except auto train) are completely general and apply to all trains. I think it was the only think Amtrak could offer the Union in the last round of contract talks because lord knows Amtrak dosen't have any money. Why not have passengers foot some of the bill. I was just as surprised as you.
I thought the snack bar staff always accepted tips. Ditto, redcaps. Are you sure that this is a change in prior policy?
In responce to another post someone said that Amtrak train crew were not suposed to accept tips, but the Travel Planner makes no such distinction.
I always tipped the waiter in the dining car, just as I would a regular waiter. I don't tip the snack bar guy unless he goes out of his way, and telling me they're out of something doesn't qualify.
-Hank
i do not think too well of amtrak the southwest chief & the lake shore limited especially blowing cold air in the fall / winter !!
do they blow cold AC on thier passengers during the summer?? & the long delays too!!
they say i can have a free ride because they messed up our return trip back to the union station in los angeles. but those nasty restrooms leave a lot to be desired !!!!food was average!!
It seems required to me. I was trying to get lunch on the 1:00 Metroliner from New York once (think that is train 115). I left my seat after Newark, NJ, and didn't return until we were near 30th Street in Philadelphia. Everyone was tipping the guy despite the poor service and I did so too, but I remarked with fellow passengers, this guy didn't really deserve it. If you ask me, the engineer does a great job, but the people who you would customarily tip, don't provide much in the way of service.
I don't tip the food service people because the food costs so damn much. I would probably only tip the engineer after hearing a particiularly funny radio exchange or if he got into a fight w/ the dispatcher trying to get our train priority treatment.
I don't tip the food service people because the food costs so damn much.
I suppose that makes sense. After all, the food service people set the prices, don't they?
I don't have any money left in my wallet to tip with. When riding Amtrak there is only enough in my food budget to buy food or leave tips. Not both.
The origin of the word "tips" is that it is actually an acronym, standing for "To Insure Prompt Service." (Although that's actually poor grammar; it should be ensure but I guess TEPS doesn't sound good :-)
Anyway, if that's truly the case, we should tip the engineer before the train leaves the station, so he has incentive to argue with the dispatcher or give a funny radio call.
"Turn to page 60 of your travel planner and please read along w/ me."
That's page 52 in the 2000 Travel Planner.
And just one person's observation -- the one time I rode an Amtrak long-distance train, not only did people tip the servers in the dining car,* the attendant in the cafe/lounge car had a cup for tips next to the cash register.
*Personal plea: if you ride in sleeper class, don't forget to tip your dining-car server! Just because the price of the meal is included in your sleeper ticket, and you sign a chit instead of paying cash, doesn't mean the server shouldn't get the same tip you'd give if you had to pay cash for the meal. The price of the meals is in the menu; please tip accordingly.
Just to let all interested parties know (as if they hadn't seen the news within the past 24 hours) that today's walking tour will be rescheduled for next Sunday (Dec. 3rd), weather permitting, of course.
The Nor' Easter is not behaving as it still nasty, windy and rainy as of the past half-hour.
Hopefully, Mother Nature will be on our side next weekend.
BMTman
I don't need no weather report to tell me it's rainin'! I gotz unix ya know!
I have seen that "bar cars" are a regular feature on Metro North New haven Line trains. I was wondering if anyone could describe the layout of these cars and the type of fare served. Does the other MNRR lines and/or the LIAR have food service cars? Do any other commuter rail agencies have food service cars? I know VRE was running them until ridership went up so much they had to be replaced w/ normal coaches.
Bar cars are pretty much that - a bar on wheels. Minus the stolen signs, poor lighting, pool table, Harley engine at the end of the bar, jukebox.
To quote the MN conductors, they sell "A variety of alcoholic and non alcoholic drinks, and tasty snacks" YMMV The ends have roundish seating with drinkholders, the middle has a bar. They have cabs. I'm not sure if they can run at the head end or not.
The LIRR doesn't have them, but does have a PW branch drink cart, and reserved seating on select montauk trains.
The LIRR used to have bar cars in the 1960's. About half of the former Boston & Maine cars (LIRR class P74B, 7521-7550) and all three of the former Bangor & Aroostook cars (LIRR class P74B1, 8551-8553) were converted to bar cars. Most had all seats removed except for one facing set at each end (some had 2 or 3 facing sets left in). A bar ran half the length of the car on one side, and was usually staffed by three or four bartenders.
There were three ways to recognize the bar cars on LIRR:
1. They all had pink flourescent lighting (probably so you couldn't see how bloodshot customers' eyes got....)
2. When a trains topped at a station, passengers exiting the bar cars were either staggering or just falling over from the load they took on while travelling.
3. The odor from all the spilled beverages, just like any dark barroom. At least with all the alcohol on the floor, the dripping umbrellas wouldn't cause ice to form, thanks to LIRR's lack of heat in those days!
I'm not sure if they can run at the head end or not.
They can and sometimes do !!! That's when I have to stand !!
There was a Metra coach operating on either the Milwaukee District North Line or West Line (it boarded on the north tracks at Union Station) that had its center vestibule converted to a small area that served snacks and refreshments. It wasn't really a bar car per se, but it was about the closest thing Metra had.
I'm not sure if it's still in service or not, since it's been a while since I was taking Metra on a daily basis.
-- David
Chicago, IL
------>MNRR Hudson Line
"We got Rail-CALL!!"
NJ Transit should seriously create food service cars, especially on lines like the Coast Line, Northeast Corridor Line, and Main/Bergen/Port Jervis line.
Or, as an alternative, since MNRR sent a number of Shoreliners to the NJT side of the Hudson, so why can't they send a couple of bar cars?
The bar cars are only part of M3? EMU sets on the New Haven line and they are owned by ConnDoT.
No, there are two CDOT shoreliner bar cars, the P.T. Barnum and I forgot the other. They basically have a few seats removed and a hot dog cart in the middle.
Are the Hollywood film people totally nuts, or are they just crazy? Here are two cases in point:
-----
1. I just saw "Meet The Parents," a comedy with Robert DeNiro and Ben Stiller. The first scene includes an "establishing" shot with the Broadway/Jamaica elevated - I think at or near Myrtle Avenue - and NYCT car #4216 passing by. Problem: it's "establishing" a sequence set in CHICAGO! Adding to the confusion is that the Chicago-based couple then travels to New York to meet her parents in Oyster Bay. [No, there aren't any LIRR shots at all.]
-----
2. I recently watched a rerun of "Ghost" with Patrick Swayze, Demi Moore, and Whoopi Goldberg. At one point, Swayze's character (the ghost) follows his killer into the Franklin Street station and onto an R-38 on the J (!!). After an encounter with another ghost, we see an R-62A on the #1 emerging from the portal at Dyckman Street. Then an R40m (or R42) on the J arrives at Broadway/Myrtle, from which Swayze continues to follow the killer.
-----
In the first case, the producers just got lazy, and filmed the entire movie in the NYC Area (or on a back lot) even though the first 15 minutes or so take place in Chicago.
In the second case, the continuity editor was either asleep or absent. There's no way a direct ride on the J (or any other subway route in any city) would normally entail THREE separate trains, one of them in the A-division.
I was on the E Train a while ago b4 I went on vacation to Florida. I only remember A is alpha, E is Echo, F is Fox, G is George, and R is Romeo. I was on the E Train once and I heard a sample use of these codes.
"Romeo into Continental do u have a problem"?
Also In Florida I did see some Railroad crossings but no Trains, and at the Orlando international airport there is a Shuttle Monorail. Its doors and large windows remind me of my all time Favorite Subway cars, the R46's, and the M-3's.
Which Codes do you need or are you looking for any in specific, let me know
Dave
E is Echo.
Radio codes are:
12-1
12-2
12-3
12-5
12-6
12-7
12-8
12-9
12-10
Don't forget
12-11 and 12-12
Robert
12-1 Emergency - Clear the Air
12-2 Fire and/or Smoke (on train, trackway, etc.)
12-3 Flood or Serious Water Condition
THERE IS NO 12-4, it would confuse you with 10-4
12-5 Stalled Train (power, brakes, etc.)
12-6 Derailment
12-7 Request for Assistance (police/ambulance, etc.)
12-8 Armed Customer (on train, trackway, station, etc.)
12-9 Customer Under Train
12-10 Unauthorized Personnel on Track - Catwalk
12-11 Serious Vandalism
12-12 Disorderly Customers
Miltary Alphabet but I've heard a lot of leaway in this. Q trains are called Quincy.
Alpah, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India, Juliet, Kilo, Lima, Mike, November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec, Romeo, Sierra, Tango, Uniform, Victor, Wiskey, X-Ray, Yankee, Zulu
M trains use Mary.
Mary is such a tool. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Hehe.. I didn't mean it like that :)
Shawn
Here is the list of Transit and NYPD(in Parenthesis) letter names. In some cases I have heard more than one and have listed both. If I show a ? I am not sure of or do not know the code.
A..Apple (Adam)
B..Bravo (Boy)
C..Charlie (Charlei)
D..Delta (David)
E..Echo (?)
F..Fox (Frank?)
G..? (George?)
J..J(John)
L..L (Lincoln)
M..Mike or Mikey(?)
N..Nancy or November (Nancy)
Q..Quincy (?)
R..Romeo or Robert (Robert)
Z..Z (Zebra)
Police also use: King for K, Sam is S. Ocean is O,Yellow is Y., X-Ray is X.
Mary for the M
Shawn
B is sometimes Bronco, G is George, I often hear one conductor on the R announce the transfers with the words, but he says 'foxtrot' for the F.
Here is the list of Transit and NYPD(in Parenthesis) letter names. In some cases I have heard more than one and have listed both. If I show a ? I am not sure of or do not know the code.
A..Apple (Adam)
B..Bravo (Boy)
C..Charlie (Charlei)
D..Delta (David)
E..Echo (Eddie)
F..Fox (Frank?)
G..? (George?)
J..J(John)
L..L (Lincoln)
M..Mike or Mikey(?)
N..Nancy or November (Nancy)
Q..Quincy (?)
R..Romeo or Robert (Robert)
Z..Z (Zebra)
Police also use: King for K, Sam is S. Ocean is O,Yellow is Y., X-Ray is X.
I want to know how many R62s cars on #4 line had lost? 10 R62 cars? What the numbers of the cars that had a accident at Fordham Rd? Also i been seeing some of R33 cars from #2 line to #6 line & did the retired some of R29 cars from #6 line?
Peace Out
David Justiniano
www.geocities.com/justin2669/NYCTransiTrans.html
BTW: There a old Loc #400 at Westcheaster Yard & it been there almost a year now. Any body know about that loc.?
You answered my question!!! #400 is actually Electric Loco OEL06, borrowed for Amtrak Work Service in Sunnyside Yard, and has returned to NYCT. I wondered until now what had become of the locomotive.
I hope the webmaster is taking note as he can revise Locomotive Page.
R-62s on the 4, 1366-70 are part of the set that saw the most damage at Fordham Rd. Would someone who knows about the Fordham Collision repost the numbers involved?
It appears that one R-33 set has been sent from the 2 to the 4, and 8838-39 is among those on that line.
-Stef
R-62s on the 4, 1366-70 are part of the set that saw the most damage at Fordham Rd. Would someone who knows about the Fordham Collision repost the numbers involved?
1369 was the most seriously damaged and will not be repaired.
1370 and 1368 were seriously damaged and at this point have also seen their last days. The cars, however, did not belong to the NYCT and were leased. As such they were insured. Hmmmmmmm - I wonder what the depreciation on the cars is.
Got a question here. Is the entire R62 fleet leased or just part of it? Also are there any other car classes that fall under these leasing guidelines? Up until the crash, I didn't have a clue that this arrangement existed.
I did not know that the TA leases Subways cars. This is a suprice to me.
Robert
Lease?!? As in "if we don't pay the monthly finance
fee (or other)" the maker can actually take back
possession of the car(s) at will!??!
Yup. You got it. Was news to me too.
This is one of the TA's little known secrets.
The TA did it with buses all the time. I remember the first sets of RTS's saying "owned by the Port Authority, leased to the NYC Transit Authority".
--Mark
And the bus numbers had prefixes "PAnnnn" or "PAnnn" with the Flxibles. I don't know if they still do this.
wayne
Not really a secret. It's a great tax shelter for dems' what need one. The cars that are leased are marked on the ID tag undet the threshhold plate. Port Authority also leases M-1s to the MTA.........
Some of NJT's Arrow III cars are also leased-they have a sign stated subject to a lease by...(I dont know the lease owner but it is NOT the PA.)
Some of NJT's Flxibles were also PA leased-like Wayne stated, those buses did have the PA prefix.
not quite a secret... have you seen the sticker it says that it is leased by the PA
Actually, the owner of the leased cars (or other equipment) is often a 3rd party (such as an insurance company, other financial institution, or private lender) rather than the mfr.
As for taking possession in the event of a default, read the Uniform Commercial Code -- if you dare.
I wonder... If we don't pay and they take them back what would they do with them? It's not like a bus that you can sell to someone !!
Well, I'm sure they depreciated as soon as they left the factory.:-)
For tax purposes, or in reality? For tax, they probably would be in the same catagory as either trucks (5 year) or factory machinery (7 year). Give a nice "front-loaded" tax deduction to the leasor, who gets to take accelerated depreciation on its purchase, and continues to get income for many more years....
subfan
Train Dude,
During my travels to work today, I observed activity at Concourse Yard. It appears that 1370 and the 10 cars it was coupled to is gone from Concourse Yard, but the other 9, including 1369 remain. Did they get moved?
-Stef
Here's a link to an article in the Boston Globe about one of the new Big Dig bridges. The article explains how modern engineering has had to dealt with twisting forces on the bridge. While this bridge doesn't carry rail traffic, it's of interest becuase it explains it was designed to get around problems that caused the Tacoma Narrows Bridge to fail, and the Manny-B to be a constant problem.
What exactly was "Scheme Z?" Also, cable stayed bridges are some of the best looking bridges out there. Boston is going to have one spectacular landmark once it is finished.
I hate cable stayed bridges and all of their minimalist, ultra-modern bull. Does Boston think its too good for a traditional bridge? "Oo, we're so special, we had to use big fast computers to build our bridge." Next time save yourself some money and build an off the shelf bridge. I'd pick anything over a cable stayed except a plate or box girder bridge. Boston should have gone with a suspended steel arch bridge like Bayone or the Hell Gate.
I really hope you're being sarcastic.
There is no such thing as an "off-the-shelf" bridge, especially for a situation as complex as Boston's Big Dig project. And given that Boston is one of the most knee-jerk traditionalist cities in the country when it comes to design taste, selecting even a modestly forward-looking structure such as the new bridge is a huge step for them. I wonder how many design meetings it took for them to finally rule out putting any turrets or gargoyles on it.
Not sure if anybody informed you or not, but the current year is 2000, not 1900.
-- David
Chicago, IL
David Cole took the words right out of my mouth.
"Oo, we're so special, we had to use big fast computers to build our bridge." Next time save yourself some money and build an off the shelf bridge
Believe it or not, computers probably saved millions of dollars in designing that bridge. There is probably no construction project in the world that doesn't use computers in some way.
But most traditional bridge designes don't NEED to use computers. The article was touting how this was some sort of hi-tech bridge. Back in the day bridges will far outlast the bridges built today. Back then they knew what quality was (w/ the possible exception of the Manny B.) I site the Ben Franklin, Delair, Geo W. and Paulins Kill bridges as examples.
Since none of the new bridges have been around as long as those old bridges, how do you KNOW that they won't last as long?
Go back to driving your 70s clean air standards violator.
My car was built in 1969! Looking at how much those old bridges have coroded there would be nothing left had a new style bridge been built. Old stuff was built to last, new stuff was built under budget.
There is no way an engineering firm will build a bridge half-ass on purpose. With the potiental lawsuits that could surface if the bridge failed, they will not risk it. They do not want to go back a few years later and repair things that weren't done right the first time. And as you stated, look how coroded the old bridges are, they didn't have the materials we have now that would prevent that.
Modern bridges are not 1/2 ass, they are whole ass. However back in the day bridges are double or triple ass, and that's the way bridges should be built. I have more respect for a bridge that can corrode for 75 years and be just as strong as it was on day 1 than a bridge that dosen't corrode at all.
We all know you're a moron, congratulations on making Salaam look intelligent.
Using computers for achitecture is one of the best ways of putting the technology to work. No need to repeatedly test scale models, the computer can test any environment you present to it.
The only thing I don't understand with the big ig bridge is that if the bridge that is less than 100' away from it is a simple overpass type, why such a heavy-duty bridge was needed in the same location.
-Hank
The cable-stayed bridge supports ten lanes of traffic; the box-girder bridge supports just four.
OK, so was it cheaper to put 10 lanes on a cable-stayed span than 10 lanes of box girder?
-Hank
Hmmm, I smell money that could have been put to better use on things like transit.
I don't have a problem w/ computer aided design. I have a problem with engineers using computers not to find out what they can build, but what they can get away with. Back in the day the engineers didn't have the tools to make exact calculations, so they would just make the bridge 10 times stronger than was required. 50 years later if you need to add a second deck or transit tracks the bridge is plenty strong. You can build an equilivent cable stay w/o advanced calculatory methods. It works on a basic cantilever principle. You use really massive twin steel towers and run the cables from them. Computers let the builders cheap out and use concrete and only a single cable post. Instead of calling it an econo-bridge, they have the gaul to call it "graceful" or some other artsy adjitive.
So you are saying that the cost is no objective. Well if money doesn't matter, why not to fill in the whole East River, then every street in Manhattan could go to LI.
Arti
I thought the East River was a very important waterway. Filling it in would infringe upon the rights of boaters and mobsters who dump bodies there.
Funny, I thought computers made it easier to design and build structures that will do the job required of them at minimal expense, ie, most bang for the buck. Those 'days' you are fond of speaking, numerous structures that were simply 'massive steel towers' are no longer with us, most notably the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. Others include numerous bridges over the Delaware River, The Quebec Bridge, the first Rainbow Bridge, Mianus River Bridge, and less spectacularly, the Manhattan and Williamsburg bridges. Either get with the changing times, or go to Cuba.
-Hank
'massive steel towers' are no longer with us, most notably the Tacoma Narrows Bridge.
Actually the towers of the Tacoma bridge were reused for the replacement structure. Because computers make engineering so much faster, why not build traditional structures with them. It would be like running Windows 3.1 on a PIII 500. I could move to Cuba or just complain and start a grass roots movement against this so called "progress". I am sick and tired of "newer" meaning cheaper.
[It would be like running Windows 3.1 on a PIII 500]
And it will still carry on crashing and will run no current programs, i.e. will be pretty useless.
Arti
My friend did this and Win 3.1 loaded in about 2 seconds. We are currently trying to build a computer that can run windows 1.0. It only recoginizes single density 5.25's.
[My friend did this and Win 3.1 loaded in about 2 seconds. We are currently trying to build a computer that can run windows 1.0. ]
What useful stuff can you do with it?
[. It only recoginizes single density 5.25's. ]
Are you sure, I thought Win 1.0 used BIOS to read disks. Also you might be able to fake those by specially formatting 3.5" disks, by telling in BIOS setup that they are 5.25" SD-s or/and Winimage.
Arti
Sounds like it's REAL useful. It can't take much advantage of that speed however, since it's a 16-bit OS designed to run best at 33Mhz. On a 32-bit processor, you'll see some things work well, but most will simply crash and burn.
-Hank
We're just doing it for fun. How many people can say they have used Windows 1.0. My friend almost got it working, but it wouldn't load past the splash screen. Now we have a 286 and we'll try to get it going on that. A while ago my friend found all the old Windows versions online and he just wanted to run them all on his fast PC. Did you know that 3.1 zipps to 6 megs? Another goal of ours is to get a Win 3.11 network up and running.
We're just doing it for fun. How many people can say they have used Windows 1.0.
I can.
We're just doing it for fun. How many people can say they have used Windows 1.0.
I can.
I feel your pain...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The towers were NOT reused for the current Tacoma Narrows structure. Only the foundations were re-used.
Kindly read your history books, or at least the numerous web sites devoted to the bridge collapse. Only the tower foundations were used for the new bridge. There are several photos on the web of the towers buckled, and thus unfit for reuse. In any case, they'd be immediately suspect as to their reliability, given the stress they were under.
-Hank
Someone said something about the towers being reused over the summer and I guess I forgot aboot the correction.
I hate cable stayed bridges and all of their minimalist, ultra-modern bull.
Minimalist, ultra-modern bull huh? A simple stupid-ass box girder freeway bridge that looks no different then a stupid overpass is minimalist. Cable-stayed is not minimalist. Why don't you come to Tacoma and look at our beautiful new 21st St bridge. It's a cable-stayed and it's built the way you like it - with TWO towers striging massive cables. It's a short bridge, across the city waterway, and could have easily been done with a box girder. In fact, that is what was originally planned - a box girder. But Tacoma decided not to go with the bland freeway overpass look and instead built the cable-stayed. It really enhances the skyline, too - the view of Tacoma most people see is from I-5, looking across the tideflats and its heavy industry to the downtown. In the foreground is the Tacoma Dome and now the 21st St bridge. You know waht? It looks cool. And it's really helped the port because now State Route 509 runs across the 21st, and the 11th St bridge which is a raising brdige that's about 38 feet wide is now practically deserted. The point is this:
OUR CABLE-STAYED BRIDGE KICKS ASS
Tacoma just wouldn't be the same without it.
I said that I ranked them above box and plate girder bridges. I'd put them on a par w/ basic truss bridges, but definitly below continous truss, cantilever, movable, arch or suspention bridges. Dosen't Tacoma already have a nice 2800 foot suspention bridge?
Of cource I'm refering to the concrete cable stayed bridges (are there any all steel ones?). I got turned off because everyone is going gaga over them when they are just a cheap cop out. They ARE better than girder bridges, but not something special.
There's one big difference between the downtown bridges and the beautiful 2800-foot long suspension bridge. The downtown bridges are DOWNTOWN. The Tacoma Narrows Bridge is a good 6 miles from downtown Tacoma, reached via 6th Ave or Highway 16. It's visible only from areas on or near the narrows - forest on one side and 70s-era tract housing on the other. The Narrows bridge is something you don't see driving by on I-5. It's a part of Tacoma but it doesn't define that downtown. There is nowhere in downtown, not even from the roof of the KeyBank Tower (tallest building) or stadium condos (highest elevation of a building) where the Narrows Bridge is visible. I'm getting a digital camera for Christmas so when I get that I'll post some Tacoma scenery photos on here.
What does this new bridge span? Usually the best "downtown" bridges are stone masonary arch bridges (or some interesting steel girder structure). Like in Philly or Chicago or Baltimore or Washington DC.
This new bridge (it's actually like 2-3 years old) spans the Thea Foss (or city) Waterway. It's a dead-end slip that was once used by ships and is now used mainly by pleasure craft. It's also being redone...several new apartments, the museum of glass, and a new marina are all being built along the west side (downtown side) of the waterway. Right click and open THIS LINK in a new window. Now see where 705 is? On the east (right) side of 705 is the waterfront. The 21st St Bridge is the 509 bridge - where the thick green line crosses the waterway to connect with 705. The Museum of glass, the marina, and all the apartments are being built between the 21st and the 11th St bridges along dock street, between 705 and the water. The Tacoma Dome Station, the huge park'n'ride/commuter rail/amtrak/express bus/light rail (LRT comes in 2002) is on Puyallup Ave just east of D street (the first N-S gray line to the east of 705).
As you can see, the 21st is a real short span, it could've been a simple freeway overpass. But it looks much cooler with the cable-stayed bridge and I, for one, am glad its there.
If you want an even smaller cable stayed bridge, the pedestrian overpass for Sixty (or fifty)-something Street over the FDR is a cable stayed bridge. It's a cable stayed PEDESTRIAN bridge.
From what I gather in the article, "Scheme Z" sounded as if they were planning on building a massive expressway interchange right on top of the river. IMO the cable-stayed bridge is a much better solution.
I agree that cable-stayed bridges are very beautiful structures... I'd give anything to design a graceful, modern cable-stayed bridge to replace the Manny-B. Boston's new bridge is okay from an aesthetic point of view, but it is still a far cry from some of the new bridges being built in Eurpoe and Japan. Yet another example of how narrow-minded and conservative we have become compared to the rest of the world.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Boston's new bridge is okay from an aesthetic point of view, but it is still a far cry from some of the new bridges being built in Eurpoe and Japan.
Because we don't need any new big bridges. We've spanned all the waterways that needed spanning. Today most bridging needs can be solved w/ cost effective plate or box girder using multiple spans no larger than 200-300 feet each. All the large bodies of water have already been spanned so if you need to increase capacity the best thing to do it twin the existing bridge or dig a tunnel. Unless they plan to build something accross LI sound, the days of great American bridge building is over.
PS:T he best looking bridge in Europe is the Fourth bridge in Scotland and it was built in the 1890's.
Because we don't need any new big bridges. We've spanned all the waterways that needed spanning. Today most bridging needs can be solved w/ cost effective plate or box girder using multiple spans
no larger than 200-300 feet each. All the large bodies of water have already been spanned so if you need to increase capacity the best thing to do it twin the existing bridge or dig a tunnel. Unless they
plan to build something accross LI sound, the days of great American bridge building is over.
No more large bridges needed? Let's see ... in addition to Long Island Sound, a new bridge over the Potomac River west of the current I-495 bridge is urgently needed. Also one downstream of the to-be-replaced Woodrow Wilson Bridge. Seattle-Bainbridge Island would be a useful one too (dunno if it would be technically possible). The Delaware River probably could use a bridge downstream of the Delaware Memorial ... let's think really big, how's about a bridge tunnel between capes May and Henlopen?
The I-495 bridge is a simple tressle draw and can be twinned. The only things south of the Del Mem. are swamps and nuclear power plants so a bridge there is not necessary. Cape May to Henlopen crossing to too long and way too deep for a bridge tunnel and there is far too little demand.
a new bridge over the Potomac River west of the current I-495 bridge is urgently needed.
Had you not mentioned the Wilson Bridge later on, I wouldn't know whether you were talking about the Wilson Bridge or the American Legion Bridge (also Cabin John Bridge) which you were talking about.
What about a bridge across the Upper New York and Newark Bays from Brooklyn to Newark via Bayonne? There IS a big gap in crossings there, both road AND rail (and especially rail). It could connect to the Cross-Brooklyn Expressway.
There was a bridge over Newark bay, but they blew it up because it was a Navigation hazzard.
A new bridge is in the planning stages to cross the Mississippi River just south of St. Louis, Missouri. There is also an old bridge connecting St. Louis with Illinois suburbs just to the east that is also slated for replacement. This bridge formally carried Illinois Terminal (nee Traction) cars (and still carries vehicular traffic)across the Mississippi.
I hope they are not talking about removing the Eads Bridge. That was the first majour Iron arch bridge ever built in the US.
"I hope they are not talking about removing the Eads Bridge."
I second that. The Eads bridge carries the Metrolink light rail line across the river into Illinois, and Bi-State Transit would probably be stuck with a multi-million dollar bill for carrying its rails across a new bridge and connecting to the existing line on both sides of the river.
No, it's the adjacent span to Eads that will be replaced.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If the case is that the US doesn't need new bridges, that would be why you said in the response to me that all the great bridges are old ones- there are no new bridges to build. As for the great new bridges in the rest of the world, what makes you think that they are built like crap? There are plenty of old civil engineering "masterpieces" that could not withstand the test of time. Dams, bridges, skyscrapers, you name it. Bridge building is getting better and better all the time. I wish I was having this conversation 2 years from now, I will have my Civil engineering degree by then and I could tell you more specific examples.
The Fourth bridge, a cantiliver(sp?) type bridge was surely a radical design back then. If they wanted to stick with traditional methods, they would have said, "F*** it, it's too long of a span." I've come to the conclusion that all the great landmarks of the world were contrverisal when they were built. The more the contraversy, the greater the landmark. The Golden Gate Bridge and the TransAmerica Pyramid in San Fran are two examples. The Eiffel Tower in Paris is another. As far as I know, there isn't much contraversy over the Boston bridge, so it won't be as great as a landmark as others ones. In any case, if we were stuck in the past, we would be nowhere near where we are today.
In one way bridge building is getting better. They are lighter, more artfully engineered and use far fewer materials. However back in the day the engineers did not have todays modern tools and had to fudge things on the side of safety. Back in the day bridges were so over engineered that they'll never fall down. Because they were made w/ so much stuff they could be shaped into real works of art. Modern bridges are either sterile crap or something that apeals to the Paris jet set. Its like a greek venus versus a Brancuzzi. One is a human, one is a stick figure. I would think that most people would be more impressed w/ massive steel beams rivited together into an intricate pattern than some twiggy concrete spiderweb.
That "Paris Jet Set" you mention is simply a group of forward-looking people who don't see the physical world as a huge museum artifact to be forever preserved in amber. And Paris has nothing to do with it; the modernist architecture aesthetic traces its roots to post-fire Chicago and has since fermented in cities such as London, Berlin, Barcelona, and Osaka among others.
Just because a bridge (or building or train) doesn't look like it was built 100 years ago doesn't mean it is not without merit. With attitudes like yours, major advances in architecture and engineering (such as your beloved Hell Gate and Forth bridges) never would have been built in the first place. And I can guarantee that 100 years from now, there will be somebody whining "Why can't they build bridges like they used to, like that beautiful old cable-stayed bridge in Boston?" Progress marches on whether you like it or not... You can either lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.
Aethetics are subjective by nature, and reasonable people can disagree about what looks good and what doesn't. But that doesn't relieve you of the responsibility to have some knowledge about what you're arguing. Maybe you should actually read up on your history books before making more such comments. (Pretty sure I remember saying that back when you suggested Chicago isn't a real port city.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
And I can guarantee that 100 years from now, there will be somebody whining "Why can't they build bridges like they used to, like that beautiful old cable-stayed bridge in Boston?"
Yes, because by that time they would have come up with something EVEN WORSE. Bad enough to make the Boston bridge look good. I never thought I'd ever love those round Conrail signals, but now that even they are being replaced by those ugly aluminum/plastic Safetrain "StopLight" signals I have begun to appriciate them more. If progress means better we stopped progressing 70 years ago.
BTW if Chicago is a port when was the last time you had a container ship or super tanker come to your city? Barges and canals, a port does not make.
BTW if Chicago is a port when was the last time you had a container ship or super tanker come to your city? Barges and canals, a port does not make.
I work on the 54th floor of the Sears Tower, so I see container ships and tankers entering and leaving Calumet Harbor pretty much every time I look outside my office window.
But don't let the facts get in the way of your deliberate ignorance. I have no idea what the tuition is at your school, but I certainly hope you saved your receipt.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Why on earth would a container ship go to Chicago? Cargo would get their faster if the boat unloaded at Newark or Boston and then had the containers shipped by rail. Same goes for oil tankers. What do you think they built the pipelines for?
Is there a fleet of great lakes ice breakers because real ports don't get frozen in in the winter. Do you have a port authority? Is there some sort of harbour? Nobody considers Chicago a port. It's an inland rail hub situated on a navicable lake with a plethora of private pleasure craft.
Why on earth would a container ship go to Chicago? Cargo would get their faster if the boat unloaded at Newark or Boston and then had the containers shipped by rail. Same goes for oil tankers. What do you think they built the pipelines for?
Is there a fleet of great lakes ice breakers because real ports don't get frozen in in the winter. Do you have a port authority? Is there some sort of harbour? Nobody considers Chicago a port. It's an inland rail hub situated on a navicable lake with a plethora of private pleasure craft.
Costs are incurred each time the transportation mode for containers is changed. Assume you've got containers destined for non-rail-served locations in and near Chicago. It's possible to unload the ships at at East Coast port such as Newark or Norfolk*, load the containers on a COFC train, take them by train to an intermodal facility in Chicago, and then offload them onto trucks for final delivery. You then have two modal changes - ship to train, then train to truck. It is likely that the extra cost of routing the ship to Chicago - with only a single modal change required, ship to truck - is less than the cost of the extra modal change. This may not be a hard and fast rule, as seen by the fact that many containers destined for the Midwest are offloaded at East Coast ports, but it surely applies often enough to make shipping to Chicago (and other Lakes ports, of course) cost-effective in certain circumstances.
Regarding your other questions -
1) Great Lakes shipping is seasonal. I don't know of any icebreaker use in the winter months.
2) Chicago almost certainly has some sort of port authority.
3) Chicago has a sizeable commercial harbor at Lake Calumet, as David noted earlier.
* = Boston would be an unlikely choice for an East Coast port, as there's no double-stack clearance into the port area.
Mike, you couldn't possibly be more full of shit. I wonder why I'm even arguing with you; I think it only encourages you to spew your stupidity all over this board.
Is there a fleet of great lakes ice breakers because real ports don't get frozen in in the winter.
We have ice breakers that keep the canals and rivers clear, and the lakes are deep enough that the shipping lanes don't freeze in the winter.
Do you have a port authority?
Yes, the Illinois International Port District.
Is there some sort of harbour?
What part of the phrase "Calumet Harbor" in my previous posting was unclear to you?
Nobody considers Chicago a port.
Speak for yourself. Anybody who has bothered to read a book about the history of Chicago, or even driven over the Chicago Skyway bridge, knows that Chicago is a major port city.
It's an inland rail hub situated on a navicable lake with a plethora of private pleasure craft.
And just why the hell did this particular location become an inland rail hub? BECAUSE OF THE PORT!! Amazing how that works, huh?
-- David
Chicago, IL
A Harbor is a large body of water almost completely surrounded by land where ships are protected from storms etc. Philadelphia has one, New York has one, Boston has one, Baltimore has one, Norfolk has one, San Francisco has one, LA has one, Seattle has one, but Chicago does not have one.
Yes Chicago was founded where it was becase what passed for a river entered a large lake and boats could dock there. But as soon as every majour railroad from the east and west set up a terminal in Chicago, whatever port it had because out moded and obsolete. Today it is a rail hub. Philly has trains, but it is not a rail hub, its a port. New York is both a port and a rail hub.
Also if the sea lanes are kept open why do iron ore shippments to the B&LE stop in the winter? Why does lake effect snow suddenly vanish?
"A Harbor is a large body of water almost completely surrounded by land where ships are protected from storms etc. ... Chicago does not have one."
I think this might be where the confusion is coming from.
The original "harbor" of Chicago was the Chicago River and the breakwater-protected portion of the lake at the mouth of the river. And that's not really used as a harbor for commercial vessels anymore, because it's not suitable for that, as Jersey Mike correctly thinks.
HOWEVER, there is a small lake on the south side of Chicago, adjoining Lake Michigan and connected to it by a river, called Lake Calumet. This area is:
1) sheltered from the lake's storms and waves;
2) lined with enormous commercial docks and warehouse facilities the equal of any port in the world; and
3) used by massive ocean-going vessels that come to the Great Lakes through the Saint Lawrence Seaway.
Sounds like a harbor to me.
According to the City of Chicago website, the Port of Chicago transshipped in the year 1996: 1,327,113 tons of steel; 325,485 tons of liquid bulk cargo; and 514,407 tons of dry bulk cargo.
http://www.ci.chi.il.us/PlanAndDevelop/ChgoFacts/Transp.html#port
I was checking my map and the part labeled Calumet harbour, but it was a barely noticable indentation in the shoreline. There are some inland bodies of water, but they do not look navicable and are criss crossed with railroad and freeway bridges. See for yourself:
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=16&T=2&X=35&Y=360&Z=16&W=1
That does not like anything like the traditional big time harbour. Do you have any numbers as to the tonnage brought into big ports like Newark for a comparason?
Been reading the dictionary? I have.
Main Entry: 1har·bor
Pronunciation: 'här-b&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English herberge, herberwe, from Old English herebeorg military quarters, from here army (akin to Old High German heri) + beorg refuge; akin to Old English burg fortified town -- more at HARRY, BOROUGH
Date: 12th century
1 : a place of security and comfort : REFUGE
2 : a part of a body of water protected and deep enough to furnish anchorage; especially : one with port facilities
- har·bor·ful /-"ful/ noun
- har·bor·less /-l&s/ adjective
Seems to me Chicago qualifies. You should take your head out of your ass every once in a while and see what the real world looks like.
-Hank
The Chicago harbour is NOT protected. Its on a bare shoreline. Visit the Terraserver link and see for yourself. I would also think that the location of Calumet would violate definition 1.
I would define it as a waterfront.
You're obviously looking at the wrong thing, then. Maybe you should ditch TerraServer and invest in any five-dollar Chicago street map.
Hint: Calument Harbor is the large blue area south of downtown with the text "Calumet Harbor" printed on it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
invest in any five-dollar Chicago street map.
I got mine free from AAA, works just as well.
Did you visit the link? Its labeled Calumet Harbour, but it's not a harbour. There is nothing that distinguishes that stretch of Lake MI coastline from any other part. Harbours usually have an entrance (w/ accompanying large bridge) and then land on 3 sides.
What they call Calumet Harbor on that map is merely the mouth of the Calumet River, protected by a large breakwater. The river leads to Lake Calumet, which is the protected harbor where the bulk of Chicago's shipping activity takes place.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It is indeed protected. By Michigan and Wisconsin. The lake is not the ocean, you don't have to worry about things such as Noreasters.
-Hank
Chicago gets storms with wind and snow and hail and more wind. Isn't Chicago called the windy apple or something?
But it doesn't get the serious storms we get here like hurricanes that raise the tide 10'.
-Hank
"But it doesn't get the serious storms we get here like hurricanes that raise the tide 10'."
I have five words for you: "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald." The Great Lakes can be pretty damn turbulent. Here in Chicago, north of Hollywood Avenue where Lincoln Park ends and apartment buildings go right up to the shore, several stub-end streets are marked with street signs warning "HIGH WAVES. PARK AT YOUR OWN RISK." Because the waves have been known to go several feet inland and inundate parked cars!
Chicago gets storms with wind and snow and hail and more wind. Isn't Chicago called the windy apple or something?
The Windy Apple is where a bum feels like a king.
And where a king feels like some nutty, cukooo, super king.
Seriously, Chicago's Windy City nickname has no basis in meteorology. During the time of the World's Columbian Exposition, Chicagoans boasted about how their city was great and was hosting the exposition. New Yorkers called them the Windy City because of all of the "wind" coming from there.
I just read that recently, but I can't recall where.
-Hank
The wind can dictate what sort of baseball game will take place at Wrigley Field. If it's blowing in off the lake, expect a low-scoring game, or a lot of fly ball outs. If it's blowing out towards the lake, we're talking home run derby.
Contrary to what some people on the East Coast (and even some Chicagoans) seem to think, Lake Michigan is not some oversized kiddie pool for Chicago to play in during the summer. In fact, the Great Lakes are among the most deadly waterways in the world.
While the Great Lakes may not have hurricanes per se, violent storms often produce hurricane-force winds and massive waves with very little advance notice. Ever hear that Gordon Lightfoot song "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald"? Nobody really knows what caused the Edmund Fitzgerald to sink, but one common theory is that a rogue wave caused catastrophic damage to the massive frieghter. What is known is that it took less than 11 seconds for the ship to sink to the bottom of Lake Superior; the ship's crew didn't even have time to send a Mayday signal or put on life jackets. Far more people are killed on the Great Lakes each year than in the Bermuda Triangle.
Also, there's usually a couple of occasions during the winter storm season each year when Lake Shore Drive between Oak Street and North Avenue must be closed to traffic because of sand being washed onto the roadway by huge waves. And anybody from northern Indiana can tell you all about lake-effect snow.
And if that's not enough, there's also the possibility of a seiche. (I'll let the East Coast SubTalkers figure out what a seiche is. No help from the Chicagoans!)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Having looked it up, I can say it seems like it would be an odd occurance. You'll perhaps have to drop a rather large rock in the lake.
-Hank
Yeah, like a nice, humungous meteorite. Kersplash!
I can remember a few lake effect snowstorms in South Bend.
No need for a rock when a fast-moving storm front will suffice. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yeah, I did a little more reading at Brittanica.com and discovered that this is a frequent occurence on Lake Erie. Lake Michigan is not as likely to suffer.
-Hank
A quick search on Yahoo! spat out this description from the Chicago Public Library's website:
A seiche (pronounced saysh) is a long wave in a lake or bay. They are usually caused by high winds or changes in the atmospheric pressure. Water is initially drawn away from the shore, but when the pressure is relieved, the water surges back toward the shore, sometimes at dangerous heights. Seiches occur in the Great Lakes every year, usually from May to September. On June 26, 1954, a seiche 8 feet high and 25 miles wide hit Chicagos lakefront. Eight people were killed, most of whom were fishing in Montrose Harbor.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It is my pleasure to provide the definition from the Glossary of Meteorology, Second Edition, being published by the American Meteorological Society this month (December). Yours truly is the Managing Editor of the project.
seiche:
1. The oscillation of a body of water at its natural period. Coastal measurements of sea level often show seiches with amplitudes of a few centimeters and periods of a few minutes due to oscillations of the local harbor, estuary, or bay, superimposed on the normal tidal changes.
2. In the Great Lakes area of the United States, any sudden rise in the water of a harbor or a lake, whether or not it is oscillatory.
Although inaccurate in a strict sense, this usage is well established in the Great Lakes area.
New York is both a port and a rail hub.
NewARK and Elizabeth are both ports and rail hubs. New York was never a rail hub, Manhattan's rivers were too wide to allow the many bridges to be built to allow this.
By the time it became possible to build those bridges (or even tunnels), there was no room on the Manhattan side. Eventually the no room factor caused the port in Manhattan to become obsolete and mostly abandoned, it moved to New Jersey were there was room and rail lines.
New York is both a port and a rail hub.
NewARK and Elizabeth are both ports and rail hubs. New York was never a rail hub, Manhattan's rivers were too wide to allow the many bridges to be built to allow this.
By the time it became possible to build those bridges (or even tunnels), there was no room on the Manhattan side. Eventually the no room factor caused the port in Manhattan to become obsolete and mostly abandoned, it moved to New Jersey were there was room and rail lines.
More specifically, the advent of containerized shipping starting in the early 1960's is what renderded Manhattan's commercial docks obsolete. Containerized shipping requires huge amounts of landside space for container handling and storage. A look at the facilities in Newark and Elizabeth will show you what I mean. Quite obviously, Manhattan didn't have anything remotely approaching the necessary room.
Ah, the Skyway. My old friend and favorite cantilever bridge. It feels funny driving across it now, after crossing it so many times as a kid. Believe it or not, I still remember when the toll was only a quarter.
The REAL Skyway is in Kearney NJ. I believe that the black, double cantilever megalith was one of the first limited access urban highways.
No, they're BOTH the real Skyway - one's the Chicago Skyway, the other is the Pulaski Skyway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I though tthe Sunshine Skyway in Florida was the real skyway!
-Hank :)
Forgot about that one... any others we've missed?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Seaway Skyway - St. Lawrence River from Ogdensburg, NY to (mumble), ON. This is NOT the I-81 bridge.
Burlington Bay Skyway - Hamilton Harbor (Lake Ontario), Burlington, ON to Hamilton, ON. This is on the QEW.
Isn't the latter the Garden City Skyway? Or am I confusing it with another QEW crossing?
Isn't the latter the Garden City Skyway? Or am I confusing it with another QEW crossing?
Two different animals. Garden City Skyway is the one by St. Catherines, just near the 405 cutoff. The Burlington Skyway is the one by the steel plants in Hamilton.
Heck, I drove both of those last December and didn't remember them... oh well, at my age... they say memory is the second thing to go, and I forget the first...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I stand corrected. Now that you mention it, I do remember there being two high-level crossings along the QEW. I haven't been on it since 1988, and prior to that, since 1974.
Whichever skyway was built first is the real Skyway and will be able to be refered to simply as the "Skyway". Why can't people on this MB see things in terms of black and white.
Why can't people on this MB see things in terms of black and white.
Because were not jackasses. Unlike some people from the Hudson-Delaware void.
The Pulaski Skyway, another of my favorites, opened in 1937. The Chicago Skyway opened in 1958.
Please check out this site to learn more about shipping on the Great Lakes including Chicago.
[Why on earth would a container ship go to Chicago? Cargo would get their faster if the boat unloaded at Newark or Boston and then had the containers shipped by rail. Same goes for oil tankers. What do you think they built the pipelines for? ]
Cost!!! Icould bring you many examples of what you would consider ridiculous, but well it boils down to cost. Rail is much more expensive than shipping. It's quite direct route (compare it to taking around South Africa) and not that much slower.
Arti
BTW if Chicago is a port when was the last time you had a container ship or super tanker come to your city? Barges and canals, a port does not make.
Ships up to about 750 feet in length can fit through the Welland Canal and therefore navigate the Great Lakes system. At least 85% of the world's oceangoing fleet so qualifies, including, no doubt, many if not most container ships and tankers.
Most of the inland waterways, especially the Mississippi-Missouri-Ohio system, are limited to barges.* But Chicago's a different matter.
* = there are some exceptions. Oceangoing ships can navigate the Hudson River as far as Albany, the Delaware River to Trenton, the Mississippi River to Baton Rouge, the Columbia and Willamette rivers to Portland, the Sacramento River (plus canals) to Sacramento and the San Joaquin River (plus canals) to Stockton.
FYI, the bridge is the 'Firth of Forth' bridge, and has nothing to do with counting. If I am thinking of the right bridge, the current one is the second such bridge, the first having collapsed.
-Hank
"I agree that cable-stayed bridges are very beautiful structures... I'd give anything to design a graceful, modern cable-stayed bridge
to replace the Manny-B. Boston's new bridge is okay from an aesthetic point of view, but it is still a far cry from some of the new
bridges being built in Eurpoe and Japan. Yet another example of how narrow-minded and conservative we have become
compared to the rest of the world. "
It is such a shame the USA which calls itself a "superpower" is being outdone by new mangificent public works (such as bridges and subways) in Europe and Asia. Even in China, some of their new bridges are absolutely breathtaking, and alot of them include a rail line using the bridge.
The bridge from Shanghai to Pudong new area looks awesome, as well as the mystical looking Pearl Radio-TV tower. I've only seen it in pictures, it must be something to see in person.
We better start moving forward here in the U.S., because in 10 to 20 years China may be ahead when it comes to modern infrastructure, and mass transit.
It is such a shame the USA which calls itself a "superpower" is being outdone by new mangificent public works
That's a direct product of calling itself a superpower. If you think you're already superior in every way, you don't need to improve do you? But that's the problem, America THINKS it's superior in every way. America may be (and is) superior overall, but there's no reason we can't buttress our superiority by improving in some departments.
Do you want to see a breathtaking bridge? Take the N out to Astoria and look up. Its called the Hell Gate, maybe you've heard of it.
Europe and Asia have large metro centers seperated by very wide bays, straights and harbours. The only places like that in the US are the Varizasnno narrows and the Golden Gate and they already have bridges. The only places where we could possibly attempt a new super bridge is accross Long Island sound and some places near Seattle and both of those sites present very high cost/benifit ratios.
Some places near Seattle?
I assume you are referring to the Seattle-Bremerton crossing of the sound. It's impossible with current techonology. A tunnel is impossible because at its shallowest point, the puget sound floor is 273 meters below sea level (around 1000 feet for those of you who don't know how to multiply by 3.2808). The shortest distance is from Restoration Point on Bainbridge Island to West Seattle. But even this is just over 3 miles - way too long. If anyone needs a 3-mile bridge it's the strait of Gibraltar (connecting Spain and Morocco with a freeway and a rail line would be kewl). Then the resulting expressway would still require a box-girder over one of the inlets to connect with downtown Bremerton and highway 16. A floating bridge is impossible to build because the sound is rough water, unlike Lake Washington which is always calm. In short, it ain't NEVER gonna happen. The future in Seattle-Kitsap County transportation lies in a multi-modal solution that will likely be COMPLETED in 15-20 years. That is:
(1) A monorail from the Fauntleroy Ferry Dock in West Seattle to downtown. Passengers would park or take a bus to Southworth and then hop a ferry to Fauntleroy where they'd transfer to the monorail. Vashon Island people would get the same benefit although that place is likely going to be rural/semirural forever.
(2) High-speed passenger ferries between Bremerton and Seattle, and also between Bainbridge and Seattle. WSDOT has already said that the next major ferry expansion will be just that.
(3) Commuter Rail connection to Kingston. The SOUNDER Commuter Rail's north line, when it opens in a couple years, will have a stop right at the Mukilteo Ferry Dock, which will greatly speed travel times from Kingston and points beyond to downtown.
In short, a new bridge or a new tunnel is impossible - but Commuter Rail, a Monorail, and fast ferries are already on the way.
How in the bloddy heck did Puget Sound get to be 1000 deep? That's deeper than most seas? Pamlico sound in NC is only at most 26 feet deep. The LI sound goes down aboot 100. It should be remaned Puget Sea.
The continental shelf probably justs drops closer to the shore than in other places.
it seriously is, get a USGS map with bathymetric contours or a nautical chart (the USGS maps are early 80s-era so they are in metric). It really is 1000 feet deep! At least between Seattle and Bremerton. There are a few spots where you could get away with maybe 700 but then you'd have a 10-mile long tunnel.
Holy moley. 1000 feet! Jeez, don't try to touch bottom. That's probably a great place to dump municipal waste, you'd never see it again.
Until the fish started dying.
-Hank
Municipal waste is pretty safe. Its mostly paper and plastic wrap. I think people would notice when trash started to wash ashore. It would probably be better to dump stuff that's a little more dence like tires or cars or Redbirds or low level nuclear waste. 1000 of water covers even the dirtest mess. Unless the mess is some sort of liquid. Then it just spreads it around.
Thank you for helping set back the cause of non-extreme environmentalism 1000 years. Fresh Kills used to be a saltwater marsh.
-Hank
But aren't the redbirds good for the fish? something about artificial reefs...
Yes, but that's a rather big leap from municipal waste.
-Hank
And I quote Jersey Mike...
It would probably be better to dump stuff that's a little more dence like tires or cars or Redbirds or low level nuclear waste
Truth is, the low-level nuclear waste would probably be safer at the bottom of the sound then in the open-bottom containment tanks out at Hanford where it goes now..out there it just seeps into the Columbia River, and the mulberry trees around there have Strontium counts that are through the roof
The stuff in those tanks at Hanford is not lo-level. Its "kill on contact level". I was refering to stuff like the pipes and stuff used in the reactor core that get slightly radio active. 1000 feet of water is about the safest way you can store that stuff. Tires and cars should be recycled, but I'm sure that there is pleanty of stuff that could be dumped there safety. Of course the environmentalists would have a coniption. They don't seem to grasp the fact that wast has to go somewhere and under the sea is better than on dry land. Have you ever noticed how easy it is to dump waste once, but its impossible to move it to a better place.
And I quote Jersey Mike...
It would probably be better to dump stuff that's a little more dence like tires or cars or Redbirds or low level nuclear waste
Truth is, the low-level nuclear waste would probably be safer at the bottom of the sound then in the open-bottom containment tanks out at Hanford where it goes now..out there it just seeps into the Columbia River, and the mulberry trees around there have Strontium counts that are through the roof
BTW, the Unites states still holds the world record for Steel Arch bridges and probably for several other types (continuous truss? VL draw?). Canada holds the cantilever record.
The article states ....
''Scheme Z came out with the reek of bureaucracy,'' said Dan McNichol, who until April was a Central Artery/Ted Williams Tunnel project spokesman and who has just published a book called ''The Big Dig.''
Sounds like some kind of outerspace project.
"get me an aleudium-Q36 space modulator"!
Seriously, has anyone seen or read this new book yet?
--Mark
The article says the book will come out next year. It sounds interesting. I hope it will have stuff about the subways and the new superstation.
Someone posted here earlier in the week about the New Lots IRT tower being torn down, so I drove down to NL yesterday and saw the towerhouse in a lot on Livonia and Barbey Street.
Train#1922Mike
After scampering around town aimlessly last week
I scrambled into the 50th Street Station on the C
and behind a gated entrance, on the northern end
of the uptown platform, I.."tawt i saw a booth"
all painted up... shape of a fare booth from
the opening heydays.. QQ.
sees 20/20
hey guys!
Today is my birthday!
Im back after a 3 week disappearance!
A while ago I rode on the 4 train to bleeker street, and it was awful.
THE STORY BEGINS......
I went to the downtown 4 track, seeing another 4 pass by the middle track. Then another 4 appeared 30 seconds later on the downtown track.
I got on, not realizing that construction work was takin' place at 125th. So in between 135th and 125th, the train stopped. I waited 20 minutes, for a signal. When we got to 125th, we transfered for a 4 (or was it a 5?) on the opposite track. At 59th St-Lex, Some dude was sick on the train, and we waited 10 minutes. Then I got off at Bleeker street, to tower records to buy my CD. (BTW the 4 went on LOCAL service)
Happy Birthday!!
..as I was saying.. the 4 is a turtle.
Homeline.
'Nuff said.
free video is on the way as a birthday present including the #6 going past city hall station thanks to a nice motorman who will not be named here !!
Thanks a lot dude!
Het, Salaam, is this a birthday promotion?:-) My birthday was on the previous Sunday, the 19th.
I hope you had a great birthday. The #4 train never had that problem when it was the Sea Beach instead of the Woodlawn Line. Oh well, at least it didn't happen on your birthday.
It's also the anniversary of Chrystie St. You wouldn't happen to be 33 would you?
postedSunday, November 26
9:50 PM
Nah, I'm one of the young kids this time around. I'm 13
Does that make you the youngest Subtalker?
I used to be the youngest Subtalker.
yes, i guess so.
I am applying for Transit Tech High School,Chelsea High School, and Samuel Gompers, since I'm an 8th grader. I already handed in my application.
Can anyone tell me any facts about the school?
Wish me luck!!
Tower Records is actually closer to Astor Place.
Did they open the new stations to Pavonia on the HBLR? They were supposed to open on the 18th. I didn't have time to get out there.
Train Buff Headquarters
Yes, the HBLR was extended to Newport on the 18th. I (along with many of my fellow ERA members) was on the first revenue run into Newport.
I defintly say the 4 line. It goes fast and makes everyline in the system look like a turtle. The second best is the Q and the last one is the A.
Christopher Rivera
i think you have it all wrong, the 4 is the turtle. After 149th st it slows down to a crawl, and where the speedy straitaways are, instead of 25-30mph, it goes, what? 10-15mph!
You probably rode it during rush hour, try it during non rush and you wouldn't call it a turtle.
Arti
Rush-hour... Non-Rush-hour..
whats that saying about a duck??
"If it looks like a duck, walks like
a duck... it's a duck."
Honestly, I never had a problemo with
the 4.. just recently after comparing
it to the 1/9 in the AM trip, did it
stand out.. bad!
Lex during rush hour is severely overcrowded. No other line than Lex exp has that frequent service, combined with delays in stations you get slow operational speed. Take it during non rush hours and it's a blast.
Arti
On middays the Lexington express (4,5) is pretty quick, I avoid it during the Crush hour though, it's so bad locals fly by.
I know, I mostly use Lex.
Arti
The Brighton Of Course
Your answer surprises no one. But you mean the Q, don't you? The stumbling D is a local, remember?
Watch it, Fred. The D and N use the same equipment (R-68s), for the most part.
The D IS EXPRESS IN MANHATTEN, lOCAL IN BROOKLYN, DIRECTIONAL EXP IN BRONX DURING RUSH HOUR
i think you have it all wrong, the 4 is the turtle. After 149th st it slows down to a crawl, and where the speedy straitaways are, instead of 25-30mph, it goes, what? 10-15mph! just wait until south ferry hears about this!!
The Brighton line surpasses all. With the slants on the Q, the ride is awesome.
The Q is one of the fastest, on the Brighton express, 6th ave dash, and in the tunnels under the park.
The E and F do pretty well in Queens as well.
"turtle" sure is original..
I vote the 2.
Tho IMO the A easily beats the 4.
The stretch between 61st St-Woodside and Junction Blvd. is a great run either way I've been noticing lately. Add the speed with the unpredictable rocking motion of the RustbirdsTM and you've got yourself a ride comparable to the Batman or Medusa from Six Flags.... except it doesn't go upside down (something I can not guarantee won't happen!)
That stretch on the 7X is also a blast, as long as you don't have a slowpoke T/O.
# 7 is one of my pics & the # 2 express A train ...
That 7 express we took last month was quick. It got up to 40, maybe 41 or 42 before slowing for the stop at Woodside.
When the R-10s ruled, nothing - but nothing - could top the CPW dash on an A train. Sheer bliss. It's just not the same anymore in terms of excitement, but is still enjoyable. I made 3 express runs last month along CPW, all on R-44s, and they weren't too bad.
The Fulton St. express run is pretty good, and the Brighton express on a Q of slants is excellent.
The Howard Beach - Broad Channel stretch was the scene for the fastest R-10 ride I ever had, in July of 1969. Once we cleared the bridge, all bets were off. That A train took off as though it had been shot out of a cannon.
I haven't done the whole system and I did the Queens Boulevard IND on the R. From what I have ridden, I'd say the 2 is the best. 4 is good also. The last time I was on a 4, I had missed a redbird 5 (which I wanted) so we had a fair amount of yellows and reds.
The 2, especially as it flies through Columbus Circle. The only disappointment is the early slowdown around 50th for the stop at 42nd.
Second place goes to the Q in Brooklyn. (It's no fun in Manhattan since the local stations aren't visible. That's why I've ruled out the 4/5.)
The A gets honorable mention for its CPW run, but it loses points for the almost pointless express run south of there, never skipping more than one local stop before stopping again. The ride out to the Rockaways is great, but it's not an express out there.
I've read on this message board and elsewhere that an AEM-7 is limited to 9 cars because of its limited HEP capacity. From my vantage point on the pedestrian bridge at Wheatsheaf Lane (Frankford Junction) today I witnessed a single AEM-7 pulling 11 cars eastbound at 2:34 PM and another single AEM-7 pulling 11 cars westbound at 2:36. Is the rebuilding program beefing up the HEP capacity?
Bob
Did all the cars require HEP?
They were all Amfleet cars.
I guess it was mighty chilly in those cars.
I posed the question at the West Jersey Chapter NRHS meeting tonight and got this response:
The AEM-7 is not limited to 9 cars by the extent of its HEP output, but rather by tractive effort. An AEM-7 can haul 9 cars as long as it doesn't stop in the tunnel entering Jersey. It is limited to 7 cars if it has to climb the hill from a standing start. The AC rebuild increased the tractive effort such that one unit can haul 11 cars.
Earlier tonite myself and Pigs were brainstorming and we came up with a solution for several stretches of unused express trackage. Our plan was to implement a hi-speed sybway service on the F, A, 2 and 4 trains. Trains would originate at new park and ride terminals and them proceede on a rebuilt trackway (concrete ties and cab signaling) w/o stopping until the train reaches downtown. The trainsets would consist of 2 end power cars and tilt capable trailers. Seating would be all reserved and would cost 10-20$ a ride. Congestion problems could be eliminated by installing bi-directional signaling there necessary. Top speeds could be somewhere in the vicinity of 100-110mph. If someone found the capital funding would this be feasible? Sucessful?
Really, my part was only the build gigantic pork and ride lots part.
Build a GIANT pork and ride lot over the Coney Island Yard. Inside the yard, build a station for trains that would use the Sea Beach express trax.
In addition, this could be combined with Larry Littlefield's proposal to build big box stores over the yard, they would use the off peak porking otherwise used by commuters. All of this would have direct ramps to the Belt Parkway which would be widened to Ocean Parkway to provide quick access to that road.
Ever since the advent of Acela's high-speed service, I've been salivating over the prospect of a nationwide high-speed rail system here in the United States. None of this penny-ante 150 MPH crap, I mean a real electric-powered high-speed system that would be the envy of France and Japan.
Sounds impossible? I refuse to believe that. We managed to saturate the country with interstate highways in less than 50 years, so there's no reason we can't build a nationwide high-speed rail network in about the same amount of time if not sooner.
A few thoughts/questions to consider:
Similar to the French TGV, existing mainline railroads would be used in slower-speed zones approaching major cities, but dedicated high-speed trunk lines would be used in rural areas between cities. For these trunk lines, I suggest we use the median strips of interstate highways in much the same way Chicago pioneered the concept of running rapid transit lines down the medians of urban expressways. The ROW is already there, and it would create a true inter-modal transportation network. Of course there are some areas where this wouldn't be feasible, but I've logged several thousand miles on rural interstates and I'd dare say most of them could accomidate high-speed rail lines, especially in areas like the Midwest and South where highways tend to be straight and wide with a minimum of hills. Existing overpasses may have to be modified, but they do that whenever a new traffic lane is added, anyway.
High-speed rail would be best utilized in medium-distance markets within georgraphic regions of the country where overall trip time would be less than a day. However, I suspect long-distance trains with sleeper cars would also be a welcome option, similar to Amtrak's existing long-distance trains but at 200+ MPH. (By way of comparison, French TGV trains cruise at 186 MPH, and have achieved 275 MPH in testing, so we know the technology exists.)
These medium-distance markets are similar to the "spokes" of the airlines' hub-and-spoke system of air traffic, which is quickly reaching the point of gridlock. The airlines, instead of fighting high-speed rail, could turn it to their advantage by offering combined ticketing options for inter-modal travel using high-speed rail to feed the hub airports (assuming adequate rail-airport connections) and airplanes for long-distance travel.
A couple other observations about the French TGV system, which I learned from the excellent website at TGVweb:
High-speed rail travel seems to be the safest mode of travel available; there has not been a single fatality in the 20+ years the French TGV system has been in operation. There have been a very limited number of derailments, even at high speed, but the articulated design of the trainsets results in a greatly stiffer train and prevents the jacknifing that is so common in "conventional" train wrecks. I didn't know this before I read the website, and I find it very fascinating. Are the Acela trains articulated? If not, maybe we should move to fully articulated trainsets instead of building them like Sherman tanks as mandated by the FRA. In addition, articulation greatly cuts down on the weight of the train, in important consideration in high-speed trains.
The French TGV system has recently introduced bilevel trains on one of its more heavily-traveled routes. I envision an American high-speed system that uses bilevel trains similar in layout to Amtrak's Superliners but designed for high-speed operation. Of course, this presents certain challenges, like keeping the weight down and maintaining a low center of gravity. But the French TGV managed to do it, so there's no reason we can't.
Of course this would require massive amounts of money to improve the rail infrastructure, but I still think it would be chump change compared to the billions we've dumped into unsustainable highway construction. More importantly, it would require unprecidented cooperation between numerous government agencies, and more than a few politicians telling the airline, petroleum, and automotive industries to go shove it. Of course I don't see this happening anytime soon, but with ever-increasing gridlock on the highways and in the airports, I think it's only enevitable. What we need is a visionary who can cut through all the bullshit and make it happen, like somebody who can be to high-speed rail as to Dwight D. Eisenhower was to the Interstate highways.
Any thoughts or comments out there? I want to hear how such a system could be made possible, not how it would be impossibe... I refuse to take "no" for an answer!!
-- David
Chicago, IL
None of this penny-ante 150 MPH crap, I mean a real electric-powered high-speed system that would be the envy of France and Japan.
If we want to be the envy of France and Japan, we don't need any of this penny-ante MPH crap.
The TGV never reached 275 MPH in testing, they're too smart for that.
The data in my initial posting was incorrect. The French TGV holds the world speed record at 311 MPH (or 500 km/h if you want to be anal about it).
Regardless of how you measure the speed, my general message remains the same. I don't give a rat's ass wether they measure it in miles per hour, kilometers per hour, or cubits per minute.
The fact is that we use Imperial units of measure in the United States, like it or not, and it's doubtful we'll be changing to metric anytime soon. That doesn't make the slightest difference in what I'm proposing in my previous post.
I'd like to hear some intelligent discussion on the overall feasibility of such a system, rather than petty nitpicking about what units of measurement I use in my posting. If that's too much to expect, maybe I should take my ideas and go elsewhere to present them.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>> I'd like to hear some intelligent discussion on the overall feasibility of such a system <<<
Although the French TGV had a top speed over 300 mph in a test, its service speed is limited to 186 mph. Therefore I do not think it is realistic to plan for service speeds in the next few years in excess of 200 mph.
Acela is the start of a TGV system, and its success will certainly affect whether it grows. I doubt that there would be a nationwide system within 50 years, but I could see the concept growing between pairs of cities large enough to support considerable traffic within approximately 300 miles of each other where downtown to downtown time could compete with air travel. Most of those cities are east of the Mississippi river.
The biggest problem is the lack of a continuing tradition of passenger rail traffic in this country. France, Germany, Italy and Great Britain all have extensive inter-city passenger rail, other than TGV, well used by their citizens. This country does not. What are the next cities that could have a TGV train? Chicago & St. Louis? Chicago & Detroit? Whatever is the second line, if you build it and they do not come, there will not be a third one. Of course, airlines that stand to lose passengers will oppose high speed rail.
Here in the west, it might be successful from Los Angeles to Las Vegas (300 miles), but Los Angeles to San Diego (125 miles) is too short to show much advantage over a conventional train, and Los Angeles to San Francisco (408 miles) is too long to compete with Southwest Airlines which flies frequent schedules from suburban airports with a one hour flight time. BTW, Amtrak offered conventional rail service between Los Angeles and Las Vegas and it failed miserably, probably because families and couples on a budget drove to save money, and high rollers flew.
Tom
TGV trains may be limited to 186 mph as you stated, but remember that France is a small country compared to the US. Speeds over 200 mph may be nessasary to compete with airlines and the public's perception of rail travel. Trains crossing the midwest would probably have no barriers from traveling at speeds over 200 mph, so making the trains operate that fast should be a main goal.
"Speeds over 200 mph may be nessasary to compete with airlines and the public's perception of rail travel."
Despite the fact that they aren't even American-style "high-speed" (110-150mph), much less TGV-type speeds, the California corridor lines seem to have developed a solid and growing ridership. That in the state considered to be "car-crazy", which popularized drive-through (I refuse to use the abominable ad-speak "thru") everything. So TGV-like speeds are not necessarily needed to conquer the public's perception of rail travel, at least over medium-range distances (250 miles or less).
Obviously, air travel isn't all it's cracked up to be, because lots of people drive between cities (much fewer since deregulation gave us inexpensive airfares, but still thousands of people). A 100mph train is certainly faster than driving, and if it could be offered cheaper than an air ticket between the same cities, it could attract many of the driving travelers. Plus there's the issue of reliability. If Amtrak could iron out the priority problems it has with the freight railways, then Amtrak will have a leg up on the airlines. Because 110mph reliably may be considered by a lot of frustrated travelers to be superior to 350mph with frequent delays.
>>>A 100mph train is certainly faster than driving, and if it could be offered cheaper than an air ticket between the same cities, it could attract many of the driving travelers. Plus there's the issue of reliability. If Amtrak could iron out the priority problems it has with the freight railways, then Amtrak will have a leg up on the airlines. Because 110mph reliably may be considered by a lot of frustrated travelers to be superior to 350mph with frequent delays. <<<
And, at least on Amtrak owned ROWs, you rarely run into a traffic-jam. Can't say the same for I-95 or I-76/476. If we could find some kind of incentive for those pesky freight RRs to cooperate with Amtrak instead of being hostile at every turn, we'd be in business.
..some kind of incentive for those pesky freight RRs to cooperate with
Amtrak instead of being hostile at every turn, we'd be in business.
,,
Note--they already get an "on-time" bonus AND they get to overrule schedule specs, which has translated to trains genrally slower than pre 1920's speeds or worse. AND they still delay them. Either they are incompetent, (why do you think trucks can be competitive?) or they need long sessions in a ret-education facility.
For the last year I have been reading a newsletter called Hot Time on the High Iron put out by an IC engineer w/ 20 years experiance. Some of the problems center on stupid managment, but most of the problems arise because freigh railroading is just plain complicated and shit happens, frequently. This has been made worse by freight railroads having to cut their way to profitability. There is little room for error. Single tracking, elimination of redundant trackage and 2 man crews all (both the head end) means when problems occur it will take a long time to get fixed. However, its cheaper for a train to arrive 8 hours late than to have all those redundant systems. Freight RR's almost went bankrupt and this is the only way they can make money (although some have quite plainly cut too much).
Trains crossing the midwest would probably have no barriers from traveling at speeds over 200 mph, so making the trains operate that fast should be a main goal.
That sounds like a job for the M-497.
but I could see the concept growing between pairs of cities large enough to support considerable traffic within approximately 300 miles of each other where downtown to downtown time could compete with air travel. Most of those cities are east of the Mississippi river.
WRONG.
CALI: The California stuff is obvious. True high-speed rail between L.A. and SF is inevitable. What you eastcoasters don't know is that SFO is the joke of the entire west coast. I've actually heard a bank commercial that says "when you thought free checking was as rare as an on-time flight out of SFO". And I live in Tacoma, way north. SFO is so bad that many of my Dad's co-workers fly into Oakland and then take the BART into SF because SFO is so bad. True high-speed rail would do the LA-SF run in two and a half hours. That's DOWNTOWN to DOWNTOWN. Assuming you used transit (driving is worse) you'd be dealing with at least another 90 minutes on BART and a Metro bus or light rail to get to and from the airports. That's inevitable. And the LOSSAN corridor is already doing well with 110-mph diesel trains.
WAOR: 150-mph ELECTRIFIED train service between Vancouver, B.C. - Seattle - Tacoma - Portland - Eugene. Amtrak and WSDOT are going to keep adding as many Talgos as they can over the next `10-15 years, but there is only one mainline between Seattle and Portland and it's only double-track. FourTracking is inevitable, and in 15-20 years when it happens look for electrification to come along with it. A direct high speed rail connection to Sea-Tac will probablyt eventually happen too, but that may take half a century. The two ROWs between Tacoma and Seattle through the valley are both more than 100 years old and chock full of grade crossings. A new ROW that bypasses all the town centers that is grade-seperated is inevitable, because the sum total of all the speed zones averages to a 55-mph speed limit over 40 miles of track. Pathetic. It'll happen, just not soon enough. There;'s a ridership base of about 100,000 people per day traveling between Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia-Centralia-Longview-Portland alone.
-Abe
I say you run trains through town at linespeed, grade crossings or not. You equip the locomotives w/ battering rams you don't require them to stop after a collission (state law can declare the car at fault in every case) and after a few incidents people will get the point.
I don't know my WA rail history, but is there an abandonned RoW that could be re-activated? 4 tracking a 2 track line is very hard because of all the bridges that have to be expanded.
The scoop on abandoned ROWs is this:
There's none that work south of Centralia (between there and Portland). The only paralell ROW was abandoned in the 1910s and restoring it would have as much property aquisition costs as building a new line through uncharted territory. The I-5 median would even be cheaper (and I-5 has 5-7% grades in the hills north of Longview).
The old Milwaukee Road is intact (with a 10-mph speed limit) between Centralia and Tacoma, but its a meandering route with 3.3% grades in places - too steep for freights and too meandering and curvy for speedy passenger service.
Seattle-Tacoma is where some real stuff could happen. The UP mainline is a single-track between Tacoma and Seattle, used only by their freights, but there is only one through-girder span on that route, the rest are marshes and creeks. It would be very possible to run all the freights on a double-tracked UP, thus freeing up the existing BNSF double-track to all passenger trains except for a couple of local freights a day (which could run at night). But there are two main problems with this. The first is that the Talgos would be running non-stop on the same tracks as the SOUNDER which stops every 2 miles. A center passing track would solve this to an extent, and they're already building one between Auburn and Seattle. But south of Auburn you'd be going with new bridges and property antyway so you might as well make it 4 right then and there. The second thing is really the real reason why that would be hard to accomplish: WSDOT or SoundTransit would have to buy both the BNSF AND UP lines at fair market value and then pay to upgrade them, which could reach into the billions. People here have a big problem with spending lots of money on anything except more Single-Occupany-Vehicle lanes. And WSDOT is strapped for cash since I-695 passed a year ago, lowering the car tabs to a flat fee of 30 bucks.
No abandoned ROW, so we be talkin' 4-track.
>>> Most of those cities are east of the Mississippi river.
WRONG. <<<
What was wrong with saying most of the paired cities are east of the Mississippi? You have mentioned a few cities in the Northwest. There may be room for one line in the Northwest, but that hardly matches the number of potential routes in the East.
2 ½ hours is too long a travel time between Los Angeles and San Francisco to be a popular day trip for business. Whenever I have to commute to San Francisco, I try to catch a plane about 7:30 A.M. in Ontario, which makes my driving opposite to the morning rush hour, fly to Oakland, catch the BART to downtown San Francisco, and can be at my first appointment by 9:30 A.M. At the end of the day, I reverse the ride on the BART to Oakland, and return to Ontario, and once again my drive is opposite to commuter traffic. With a 2 ½ hour train ride I would have to go into downtown L.A. to catch the train, which I would have to catch at 6:30 A.M. to arrive in San Francisco at 9:00 A.M.
The one long distance TGV in California might be from Los Angeles to Sacramento. The politicians who regularly make that trip twice a week might be willing to spend the extra time for the extra space to get work done during the trip. This will not come about until the concept is proven on several lines in the East first.
Tom
You're complaining about a 2.5 hour train ride? That's about how long it takes to commute into New York from Dover Plains or Port Jervis. Not to mention many people use Amtrak Empire, Keystone or Inland trains for business trips (or even to commute) from Harrisburg, Albany, Springfield or Hartford.
Have you ever tried sleeping on the train. You get to bed at 11:30, wake up at 5 or 5:30 AM and then get another 2 hours on the train. On the way home you can do work so that every minute at home is quality time.
I prefer fathoms/femtosecond.
I'd like to hear some intelligent discussion on the overall feasibility of such a system, rather than petty nitpicking about what units of measurement I use in my posting. If that's too much to expect, maybe I should take my ideas and go elsewhere to present them.
I have nothing to more to say about high speed rail except that I agree with you. I'm not the kind of person who posts agreement messages.
And I can respond to your posts however I like. If you don't like it, you can ignore it and pay attention to another branch of the thread. If this branch is successful, think of it as a completely different thread.
The TGV has the world standard train speed record of over 300 mph.
The US has the world tracked vehicle record of mach 8.
The TGV packs Q2 power in a dengeruosly under-weight trainset. Just like that ICE train that atomized a few years back.
Passenger cars in the US have locking couplers designed to discourage uncoupling in a wreck. This has contributed to increased safety in passenger train travel.
I agree that the rural interstate medians should be used as a ROW. For some reason the DOT in GA has discuraged the use of the medians for rail. They would not give a reason, however. Does anyone know any reason why a median shouldn't be used? It should be noted that the GADOT has always been pro road and sees no alternatives to them, that is the only reason I can think of.
The idea about using medium distance cities first would be good. I don't think an "instant" national system would work. If we first got people to accept using travel for cities within a region, then maybe maybe will gradually accept using rail for long distance trips. For example cities in which a person would normally drive 3-6 hours or take a commuter plane would be connected first, and the systems would emphasize regional travel, not cross country travel. The systems would not nessasarly connect to the other systems, however they would all be built with certain standards so that they would be easily connected once the demand is there.
The biggest hurdle is getting local governments to cooperate. Another one is that planes will get you faster across the country faster than a train could ever dream of. The ways I could see trains competing is that fares would be way lower, and the increasing amount of delays at airports would benefit rail.
It's not impossible, but it might not receive enough passengers to sustain it. Higher speed rail travel can work between cities when it can compete time-wise with total air travel time from center city to center city where there are many business passengers. The two prime examples being Boston-NYC and NYC-DC. As the distance becomes greater the time wasted to get to an airport and the time wasted in the airport becomes less significant.
NY to Chicago would work if they had an overnight train making the trip in 10 or 12 hours.
There are many Chicago hum routes that would benifit from Hi Speed rail. Chicago to St. Louis, Detriot, Cleveland, Kansas City and Cincinatti could all be possible hi speed rail routes.
"There are many Chicago hum routes that would benifit from Hi Speed rail. Chicago to St. Louis, Detriot, Cleveland, Kansas City and Cincinatti could all be possible hi speed rail routes."
Amtrak, the FRA, and the midwestern state DOTs are one step ahead of you on that. There's already in the works a Midwest Regional Rail System to link exactly the cities you named, plus Minneapolis/Saint Paul, with Chicago at the hub.
The trains will travel up to 110mph with tilting mechanisms like Acela but with diesel engines instead of expensive electrification. The system will of course use the existing freight railways, and track, signal, and grade crossing improvements are underway for the Saint Louis and Detroit lines. A request for bids has gone out for the high-speed trainsets that the system will use.
The state DOTs are doing the track, signal, and grade crossing work with federal and state funding. IIRC, Amtrak will merely be the contract operator on behalf of the states, as they are with the California corridor trains.
I'm encouraged by the prospect of 110 MPH serive in the corridors mentioned, but I still think we need electrification and possibly dedicated ROW's if we ever want true high-speed service in the Midwest. IMO, deisel-powered trains at 110 MPH are merely baby steps toward this goal. A major side benefit of electrification would be the ability to use electric trains on many of the Amtrak regional and Metra lines as well. Of course, the upfront expense would be massive, but well worth it in the long run.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Metra uses double deckers and woud not benefit from overhead electric, third rail might work
Double deckers do not preclude electrification, you just need to make sure the wires stay out of the way.
Metra has been using double-deckers on the Metra Electric division (former Illinois Central) for years with overhead electric pickup. So far no problems. I actually had the IC in mind as a prototype for the rest of the system.
-- David
Chicago, IL
oh, I thought that a double decker would bump into the wires. I guess I was wrong.
It's a tight fit in some spots, but it works:
Bilevel cars can also be found on the MBTA's commuter rail system, although they are of a different configuration than shown here. The trains themselves are pulled by deisel locomotives, but they can be found running on the NEC section which now has overhead cantenary for the Acela trains. The MBTA bilevels are, however, a bit shorter than Metra's.
-- David
Chicago, IL
You need to remember you need 1 inch of air for every 1000 volts. The IC is 3000 VDC electrified so they on;y need 3 inches. I'll bet a Chicago area electrifacation project would need to be at 12.5Kv instead of 25Kv.
nice pic. now let's paint 'em Pullman Green w/ Gold lettering.
1) Articiulation is a bad idea because you can't set out cars for defects. One small defect takes a whole trainset out of commission. That is only acceptable in places where the national rail system has money to burn.
2) The TGV hi-speed tracks are almost built like American freeways in that grades are not a real issue. The TGV works because of its hi power and dangerously low weight. The TGV cars are incredibly small (low) and Americans demand Pullman comfort in their long distance rail coaches. Furthermore TGV's do not support hi level platforms (like the Amtrak cascades). Therefore an American train would weigh more and would not be as grade immune. Theretherefore the RoW would require more fills, tunnels and bridges and would cost much much more.
3) People will always need cars and there are more people every day. When a freeway needs to be widened how do you do it? You carve 2 lanes out of the median. This lets you use the existing bridges etc. Because most people drive any national rail police could not hinder local driving patterns for long distance rail travel.
The future of American rail travel lies in Corridor service. Corridors focusing on a 60mph+ average speed serving a long string of cities. A single train would provide regional service to several regions. Speedy local service and reasonable long distance service, for those who still want it, all hastle free and at a low cost. Corridor speeds would reach a maximum of 110 mph and would probably use diesel power on existing rail lines.
How do we do this?
1) Bring back multi track Main Lines. Back in the day most main lines had 3 or 4 tracks, w/ all sorts of extra freight only lines running in paralell. Amtrak would run in the middle tracks and would have priority on them.
2) High track standards. Heavy rail, concrete ties and canted track on curves. This goes w/o saying.
3) Cab signaling + ATC. This will allow 80+mph speeds.
4) A 5th speed. Amtrak desperatly needs something between Limited speed (45mph) and Clear (80+). Lines west have defined Limited speed to be 50-60mph, but there is still the problem w/ 45mph turnouts. Amtrak needs a new "reduced" speed (60mph). With the standard 2 mile block Advance approach could give this speed. Where applicable 60mph turnouts could be installed. Amtrak sould also have the Approach Limited wayside signal translate to this 60mph speed in the cab. Engineers could be trusted to reduce to 45mph just like they are trusted to reduce to 30 from 45 when they get an Approach Medium.
5) Hi-level platforms at all stations. These greatly reduce station dwell time.
6) Express trains on some corridor routes.
7) Re-activation of paralell RoW's for diverted freight or Amtrak service. There are Abandonned RoW's everywhere and most paralell existing freight main lines.
This plan would be far cheaper than hi-speed rail and therefore you could build more Corridor routes. More routes increase travel opions and thus ridership.
As many of you are aware, the "open competitive" exam was administered last January, and I was one of the 25,000 who took the exam.
I just got word that I scored a 740, and should report to The Transit Learning Center for a (TOSS)Train Operator Selection Survey-written assessment.
Any idea on how long it will be before I am called for a physical, and offered employment? Provided, of course, I pass the physical and background check.
The TA is now saying that the first class might be for what I heard will be the secound week of January. It looks like then the next three new classes every will be about every 6 weeks after that.
Robert
P.S. This I just what I hear so DON'T hold me to it.
The TA changes it's plans every day. As you're probably aware, we're picking vacations in the B division for 2001. One thing I noticed on the call sheets is the large number of train operators who are provisional. They took the last promotional test and haven't been certified. The file numbers start with 6000 and go up into the 6500 range. I would think all these people would have to be certified before use of the open competitive list commences.
If I am not wrong my file # is 6245. I pick vactions in Dec. 15 and 1:45pm.
Robert
So, you weren't certified off the list yet. Don't worry, you'll be eventually. I took the test in 8-93, got called provisionally in 2-94 and was certified in 6-94. The bad part of being called provisionally is that when you're certified, people flip-flop on the roster. For example, since you're 6245 provisionally, whoever is 6246 may jump ahead of you when total seniority with the TA is factored in. I know the person who worked my job on Thursday/Friday last pick. He was provisional. When he was certified, he moved back in seniority. He had to go back to road extra this pick.
If you meen that it is bast on my list number, then I will move up in the list. I am right now in the class that has TB7-TB9. I was going to be in the class before this but I was held out at the medical for Fast Hart Rate. I was also put on resticed dute for Bus Opt. I was cleared the Monday that the class started. I was talking to someone from this class and they say that I will move in front of them in do time.
Robert
A lot of them have been certified since the last updating of file numbers back in July; they just need to wait for the next update to show the changes on the call sheets.
740 ... what is the top score? 800 (like an SAT)? In that case, very good! And good luck!
--Mark
Unless he meant his list number is 740?
I'm confused by what you mean by you "scored" a 740--do you mean that 740 is your list number?
Yes. I meant my list number is 740.
You'll all be happy to hear that list number 309 (my former boss, who laughed at me when I became a CR) will probably decline the job when offered.
Pass the test first, Juvy.
N1 & N2 are being used currently in the delivery of the R142's. Has anyone noticed that they were also used in the delivery of the R40M's? What other deliveries have these loco's been a part of?
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r40/r40m-d.jpg
These loco's are kept up to FRA standards for interchanes with freight railroads (NY&A, Cross Harbor). I'd expect that they would be used on most car deliveries that come by rail (not truck like the 142A). Maybe someone has a list...
No need for a list.
The SBK diesels have been involved in all deliveries since 1976 (that's when they went into service).
Before 1976, the SBK made deliveries using two former shortline railroad diesels, No. 12 and 13 which were GE 70-tonners. Both of these units were restricted to non-subway service as their cabs were too high for tunnel clearances. There were also problems involving there diesel exhaust. Basically, No. 12 & 13 worked street trackage between the SBK yard at 39th St. and 2nd Ave., McDonald Ave. and Coney Island Yards.
BMTman
I forgot to point out that with SBK diesels No. 12 & 13 restricted from subway service, the only way frieght and/or new equipment could go from the streets to subway trackage was by transfer from the diesels to the former SBK steeplecabs that ran on third rail.
With the arrival of the smaller, 50-ton GE locos, the NYCT was able to retire both the steeplecabs and the (mostly useless) No. 12 & 13 diesels.
BMTman
Do you have a date on when 12 and 13 were assembled (for the loco page)?
-Stef
Stef, I have to do alittle research on that question.
I'll get back to you ASAP.
BMTman
63rd St. tunnel ready to go.
RELIEF IN SITE
Peace,
ANDEE
Train service will actually start on December 11th but these trains will be used for employee purposes only.
This train is being used for "Train Operator route familiarization" and all T/O's on the E/F/G/R lines as well as all extra list and vacation relief personnel are mandated to attend this "class".
The train will operate from Continental Av to 21 St. from 10 am to 2 pm and 7 pm to 5 am Monday to Friday and 24 hours on Saturday and Sunday.
T/O's will have to attend outside their regular job and will be paid 2+1 overtime.
Sounds like we might have some sever buttom pushing mistakes. I hope this does not turn into another Montague tunnel punch screw up >G<
I would recommend there be an extra button, labeled "HELP." When pushed, a friendly recorded voice would say, "Thank you for punching the NYCT Help Line. Your call is very important to us. On the touchtone pad: Press "1" for 53rd street tube. Press "2" for 63rd street tube. Press "3" for The Bronx. Press "4" for all other lines. Press "0" to speak to command."
Then music will play. And play. And play.... and then you're disconnected and get a dial tone.
(Sorry, I just had one of those expreriences.)
I know this has been gone over 1,000 times, but one more thought on the 63rd Street tube. The assumption is that an extra 6th Avenue local will be run through, and will stop at 2nd Avenue, while the F and E will navigate the switch at 53rd and 6th, as they do today.
Perhaps the thing to do is run ALL the Queens Boulevard expresses on the E route (different blue letter splits off to Jamaica & 179th), and make the C an express train to Brooklyn. This eliminates the switching at 53rd and the switching at Canal. You'd get more trains going all the way across 53rd St, a key crosstown, and running from Penn Station to East Midtown.
Meanwhile, the F could run local in Queens to Forest Hills via 63rd St and the new connection.
[Perhaps the thing to do is run ALL the Queens Boulevard expresses on the E route ]
There would be a problem with capacity at WTC. IMHO doing the same with F would work better. All F expresses via 63rd street from 179th and Jamaica. Some would use express tracks in Brooklyn terminating at Church, some terminate at 2nd Avenue. E local from Forest Hills via 53rd.
Arti
That would require Bergen st Tower to be fully functional, and its not, as far as I can tell. Last spring I rode through it on a G.O. and the red signal heads were all tied over with bags.
Also its looks like, even if Culver express service is re-instated, that the lower Bergen street platforms might not re-open. There seems to be some storage rooms built right onto the NB platform down there. Just a guess.
Dave
The center tracks from Bergen St to 4 Ave. and the switch south of Bergen St on the upper level are permanently out of service. The home balls that protect the switches north of Bergen St and the upper level switch south of Bergen have been converted into automatic signals.
Permanently, as in never to be used again? Or permanently, as in the switchtower isn't set up to use them, which can be altered.
My point is not to provide exp service in Brooklyn but to have enough capacity for QB exp south terminal. 2nd Ave would provide some, eliminating the bottleneck with G, F merging however it's done would be another. Culver has already enough service. One option would be cutting back G in brooklyn too.
Arti
>>Culver has already enough service.<<
Respectfully, no. As someone who rides the F regularly, I can say there is definitely insufficient rush-hour service in Brooklyn.
Well then more trains could carry on to CI.
Arti
My elementary understanding of the service plan from those in the know, albeit incomplete information admittedly, is that:
F service would be Queens Blvd express via 63rd St
E service would be via 53 st and 8 ave to WTC
R service would remain via 60 st via Bway
G service would be deadended at court square (which is probably a mistake in my humble opinion. They will probably be able to squeeze some extra intervals in on off peak service due to long headways)
V service would be from 2 av via 53 st and queens blvd. A position of V line supt in the TA already exists.
What about Q service? This is one of the nagging questions I have had in all this. Would they turn it around at 57 st /6 av or 21 st or continental ave? They have a possibility of using tracks G3 and G4 which deadend at 63 st and lex ave behind the station wall. Can anyone shed some light on the feasibility of this idea?
At 63/lex, NB and SB tracks are on top of one another. The nearest place to cross back over after reversing there would be south of 57/6th or south of 57/7th. That would be troublesome if the F was running through service concurrently.
Here's a question:
Were G3 and G4 originally supposed to connect to the 2ave line?
Yes, and that's still the game plan if the 2nd Ave. line is ever built.
At 63/lex, NB and SB tracks are on top of one another. The nearest place to cross back over after reversing there would be south of 57/6th or south of 57/7th. That would be troublesome if the F was running through service concurrently.
Here's a question:
Were G3 and G4 originally supposed to connect to the 2ave line?
There is a turnout at 2d Avenue and 63 St in the concrete wall that is from T1 and T2. This is currently a bulkhead and could be used for the 2d Avenue if the proposed plan to run the 2 Ave from 125 via 2 Ave and then onto 63 st and down the Bway express is adopted. G3 and G4 currently end at Lex/63. I don't know what the original plan intended. I might be able to ask around and see if anyone has any recollection.
Uptown at 50th St there is a punch for 57th St/6th Ave NON REVENUE. Turn the Q at 50 St./Rock???
I don't see why they don't just run make the Q Broadway Exprees to 179th Street through 63rd street. If they did this then there would be an express along 8th Av, 6th Av and Broadway connecting to Queens and Brooklyn. There's all that unused track along broadway and the F line, why let it go to waste. This plan makes the most sense to me. It can't be too hard to adjust schedules and headways for this service.
What cars have a black/yellow Q, 179th Street, Brighton Beach? The cars with electronic signs can be reprogrammed for anything I would assume.
Was there a punch box option for broadway through 63rd street? I can't remember.
Shawn
I assume this service would terminate at Canal St (train switching to local tracks) southbound in Manhattan or continue as a local, until the Manhattan Bridge repair switches sides and the train would then continue express over the bridge? Is that correct?
Yeah that sounds right. I forgot to factor in that the Manhattan Bridge won't be ready yet. It wouldn't be that difficult to terminate at Canal Street. You can switch from south bound track to the local track south of Prince. Discharge at Canal. Then from the south bound local track to the center track south of Canal street. Then reverse to the other center track, switch to north bound track and into Canal. Then south of Price return to the express track. It probably easier to do than it sounds.
This could conceivibly present delays in N/R service, but I'm pretty sure you could fit it into the schedule. I think people would be willing to sacrific a few minute delays in N/R service to have a Broadway express.
One thing I'm not sure about is what tower is involved in switching operations in this area. I assume all of this could be made automatic if it's not already setup. Does anyone know?
Shawn.
It was mentioned awhile ago that the E/F express already runs at or near capacity on the Queens IND express tracks during rush hour. Adding additional Q express on the already full express tracks would be unfeasible.
Ok so run it local to 71-St Continental But atleast make the Q Broadway Express. There's no reason to keep adding trains to 6 and 8 aves while neglecting Broadway completely.
Shawn
I favor the idea of running the Q express all the way to Jamaica, once the MB switches sides. Currently, on Queens Blvd., the E has 12 tph and the F 18 tph, = 30 tph, which is the maximum capacity. I believe that it should be possible to run the E with 12 tph as today, the F with 9 tph (through 53rd) and the Q with 9 tph (through 63rd) via Broadway exp., = 30 tph. This makes the most of the 63rd St. connector with the least disruption, and gives the Queens riders a new service. It's also less wasteful of rolling stock. Who needs 18 F trains running in reverse direction (Manhattan to Coney Island) in the rush hour, anyway? However, this idea does not seem to be in the cards.
I think that would be a good plan. It seems like everyone is opposed to making the Q express through Queens. Oh well.
Shawm
Run F as a local thru 63rd, Q Express. The F is Local and the Q is Express, and as to run the Q on Broadway. Broadway already runs to Forest Hills on the R
I also like this idea, since 2 Q services are about to be implemented. It probably would be more workable, though, if both sides of the MB were open.
[Who needs 18 F trains running in reverse direction (Manhattan to Coney Island) in the rush hour, anyway? ]
You mean morning rush hour, and how do you intend to get the trains to CI to provide non reverse direction service from CI?
Arti
The afternoon service to Queens would likewise be 9 tph, the E 12 tph, and the Q 9 tph.
--Harry
You are forgetting Brooklyn F riders. You propose to cut Brooklyn F service 50%, don't think that's a good idea.
Arti
Arti, no, that's not my idea at all. Remember, it's roughly an hour from the F in Brooklyn to the Jamaica terminal. Some trains terminating in Jamaica during the morning rush would not be turned back to Brooklyn. For instance, there could be 14 trains from Brooklyn in the morning rush, of which 9 would return from Queens to Brooklyn and 5 would be laid over at the Jamaica yard for the evening rush.
--Harry
That would reduce both local and express service on 6th Avenue by quite a margin (9 tph on the local -- that's 50%).
I don't believe that it would be a problem extending, in this case, the D to Broadway-Lafayette or 2nd Av. in the rush hours.
Yes, I forgot that the express tracks will be essentially out of commission.
I like the idea. It would save me a lot of stops between Union Square and 179th.
:)Andrew
Great idea. When I read about the connector in 1995, the first thought that popped into my head was reassigning the F and some variant of the R train to 63rd St service, (since the new subway was designed to serve both Sixth Av and Broadway), and leave 53rd St as an E service only.
Of course, there's no transfer available from 63rd St to the Lexington Av subway. Is this a real problem, or is it not a big deal? I don't suppose the TA would be willing to add a #6 train station at 63rd St.
[I don't suppose the TA would be willing to add a #6 train station at 63rd St. ]
63rd St is about 2.5 blocks from 59th Street station, It's about as far from it as is Lex on E&F from 51st Street. So it's really a matter of a passage.
Arti
Excellent! So they could do this after all.
Would it be asking too much to consider a moving walkway?
Yes, it probably would.
You may have missed it, but in a thread about a week and a half ago, the former Mr. R-46 mentioned that there is an electrical equipment closet that opens onto the north end of the southbound Lex Local platform on one side, and, on the other side, into the fare collection area of the Lex/63 station (outside fare control). This makes it seem that the two stations are much closer than you would think, especially since there is already a passageway (of sorts) between them, though not available for passengers.
subfan
They are about 2.5 blocks apart. In subway stations take a look at the neighborhood maps outlining the exact location of the platforms. Wish I could get those as PDF files...
Arti
Ditto. If you ever get them, let me know where!
If there is a passageway, it must be a maze of a passageway. The Lex-63rd St Station is pretty deep... my personal feeling is that it is even deeper than the 53rd St E/F station but I could be wrong. I've exited that station before and have to climb up about 3 VERY LONG escalators before I could reach about the same level as where the Lex Local is. The 53rd St transfer to the E/F has only 1 VERY LONG escalator.
I used the 63rd street station to get to Roosevelt Island last this summer. I also use the 53rd street station on a regular basis, and can honestly say that 63rd is noticeably deeper than 53rd.
Read the Line-by-Line sections on www.nycsubway.org. You'll find estimated station depths that I measured.
The stations are at different depths and the enterences are about 2.5 blocks apart; however, if you read my post, I said the purpoted connecting equipment closet is at the _northern_ end of the Lex local platform, which would be near 63rd - the connection to the 60th St. line is closer to the _southern_ part of the station. Regarding the station depth, the connection is between the Lex Local platform, which is fairly shallow, and the _fare_control_ level of the Lex/63rd stop, not the platforms - I _know_ about the depth difference at platform level. I can't say that I personally have seen this connection, but Mr. R-46 reported that he found it when he had picked as a flagman and was assigned to the 63rd St. connector - he said he had time to explore the entire 63rd St. complex at that time.
Mr R-46 and I continued that discussion by e-mail, and he added that the IRT end of the passageway is north of (beyond) the platform, in the tunnel (I had gone looking for it and there are no doors on the end of the platform
Hmmmmmmm that thing looks strangely peculiar!
I think that in a previous thread a mention was made that new buildings in the area had to design for the possibility of a passage being built !!
(Great idea. When I read about the connector in 1995, the first thought that popped into my head was reassigning the F and some variant of the R train to 63rd St service, (since the new subway was
designed to serve both Sixth Av and Broadway), and leave 53rd St as an E service only. Of course, there's no transfer available from 63rd St to the Lexington Av subway. Is this a real problem, or is it not a big deal? I don't suppose the TA would be willing to add a #6 train station at 63rd St.)
Assuming the turn around at WTC problem mentioned by another poster could be overcome, you'd have 30 Queens Express/8th Avenue local trains per hour going through 53rd Street with a transfer to the #6, just as you have 30 E+F trains today.
The (F) Queens Local riders would go through 63rd Street, and couldn't transfer, but they'd be G riders with no transfer today. And, they could wait for the R and transfer at 59th, just as they can today.
The only difference between this proposal and the generally assumed plan is that the extra trains would run on 8th Avenue instead of 6th Avenue, and terminate at WTC instead of 2nd Avenue. 6th Avenue has more destinations that 8th, but this is overcome by 30 tph cross-town service (transfer to 6th Avenue B/D) and a superior WTC destination. That, and less switching.
And here is what the new punch box(at 36th Street station southbound) says give or take a word:
1)63rd Street--Q line
2)53rd Street Stillwell--F line
3)53rd Street WTC--E line
4)60th Street--R line
5)Crosstown--G line
6)Other
Obviously the first one is what gets everyones attention considering all the talk that was going on about new lines recently.
And here is what the new punch box(at 36th Street station southbound) says give or take a word:
1)63rd Street--Q line
2)53rd Street Stillwell--F line
3)53rd Street WTC--E line
4)60th Street--R line
5)Crosstown--G line
6)Other
Obviously the first one is what gets everyones attention considering all the talk that was going on about new lines recently.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hooray! Looks like the Slants will return to Queens after an absence of 23 years...too bad it will be a local through Queens. Now what are they gonna do with that pesky "V" train?
wayne
Queens Express?
99% chance the Q train is running local in Queens.
I certainly hope (heck, I'm on my knees!) that the Q does run into Queens. I'd love to operate that Q on the Brighton Express run on a regular basis! The Q in my opinion is the most fun line to operate.
Good point. I'd love to see what the slants could do on that express run, although they probably wouldn't be able to duplicate that spectacular R-10 rocket ride you had in '81.
Just have to hope for a reroute one day!!
That box was probably printed before the latest proposal, back when they assumed that the Q would be running through from 6th Av., and the F would be unchanged (notice it still says "53rd St.) Remember, it's not all settled, so anything printed is still subject to change. (Plus, we don't want to get follo started on another round of questions).
Eric,
You may want to check the spacing you're using in your HTML - your graphic of a blinking destination sign is covering part of your text message (I noticed this also in another message of yours).
subfan
Subfan, you may want to check the spacing in your browser. I shall assume you are a netscape user. His post looks fine on Internet Explorer
You are correct; I am a Netscape 4.7 user. I played around with my font sizes and was able to see the entire message, but then the animation covered the "Post a New Response" header at the bottom of the screen. Any idea how to change settings in Netscape to get the message to display properly? All help appreciated. Thank you.
subfan
I think Netscape <6 has a problem with displaying certain layers with relative positioning (inline layer). The Netscape tag would be <iLayer>, and the layer is relatively positioned. But when it tries to change what's in that iLayer using javascript, the layer disappears and I haven't yet figured that out unless it uses absolute positioning (x,y-like coordinate system) which is the case there (dunno why it disappears). Doesn't happen in IE so IE looks fine.
I have a very simple solution that will solve all your problems;
DOWNLOAD INTERNET EXPLORER
I do'nt see why anyone would consider using netscape.
Thank you for that eddifying bit of advice. <\sarcasm off>
subfan
I do'nt see why anyone would consider using netscape.
Because Microsoft is a virus!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And that's why the web has...STANDARDS! A web page shouldn't break because it's viewed on the "wrong" browser.
I'm not sure why Eric's using JavaScript at all -- a simple animated GIF would do the trick and eliminate all problems.
So I can change it without having to upload a new page every time, and it's easier to copy the code than to make up a gif (I fon't even seem to have the tols to make gif's like that)
I personally respect Eric's Java. An animated GIF would be the easy way. The Javascript thing is cool. I, for one, like it...the problem isn't that Java only works with Internet Explorer, the problem is that Netrape isn't set up to handle Java right because it is a piece of shit. Now everyone go download IEXPLORE or go suck it, but don't dis on Eric because he runs better software than you
JavaScript, not Java. The two have nothing to do with each other.
Of course, Eric can use whatever he likes in his own posts, and I respect his decisions even if I might decide differently. But I fail to understand this obsession (yours, not his) with preferring one choice over another because it's "cool" -- in other words, because it will fail in more cases.
There are many reasons to turn off JavaScript in browsers that support it fully: it's slow, it's a security hazard, it's responsible for most of those annoying popups, etc. And there are reasons to use browsers other than your personal favorite -- incidentally, there are more than two browsers out there. I've been playing around with Opera lately, and while there's much that I like about it (it's fast!), I will probably continue using IE for the forseeable future.
The original idea behind the World Wide Web was to provide for machine-independent sources of information, and the idea is at least as sound today as it was then. I include this link on all my web pages; I encourage you to see where it leads:
David -
Thanks for the link. I'll be adding it both to my personal web page and to my main page at the office.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm very famaliar with the "any browser" campaign and used to have the links on my websites long ago....i don't anymore. People can choose what browser to use, but Internet Explorer will always be the best....
Then use it, by all means! In case you didn't notice, IE is my primary browser as well.
The issue is not about which browser you prefer, since presumably you aren't the primary user of your web site. When I put something on the web, I want it to be seen by everyone who might be interested. Why should I limit my potential audience for no reason whatsoever? My browser of preference plays no role in the matter. If you think that people will switch to your favorite browser just to see your web page, I'm afraid you have delusions of grandeur -- as a matter of fact, many if not most will simply go elsewhere.
There are many reasons to turn off JavaScript in browsers that support it fully: it's slow, it's a security hazard.
It's possible to sniff someone's Subtalk password with JS. I've figured out what I think will be unnoticeable, but I WILL NOT test it nor think about developing it.
And no, I won't tell you how.
Yup, there is quite a difference in how it displayes between the two browsers (Netscape 4.7 and IE 5.5).
In Netscape, not only does the graphic cover up the text, it uses the standard (Times New Roman) font and lacks the black bacground. In IE, it is at the bottom of the message and uses a font that looks like the real LCD signs.
So which browser is meeting the specs of the W3C properly? Or is it Sun that issues the specs for Javasccript? (I know they do for Java, but I'm not sure about Javascript.)
I usually use Netscape because the bookmarks (oops, Favorites) don't seem to work in my copy of IE. Regardless of how often I try to bookmark a page (or whatever verb Microsoft prefers for the equivalent action), my Favorites list always remains blank.
I retract what I said before about the <iLayer> tag.
The Netscape thing can be fixed by
1. Moving the <div>...</layer> part after the </script> tag
2. Inside the <layer> tag, removing the "top" & "left" attributes
3. The font issue, it's probably because the browser in question doesn't support that font library
NR
Interesting that the article claims that the E will use the 63rd St. tunnel. I wonder. Did the author get it wrong, or is the TA planning on re-routing E trains down 6th Ave.?
I wondered the same thing. It would just be a "simple" matter to back from Fifth ave/53rd back down B2 into 50th street, then forwards again on B6. No problem, especially not in rush hour!"
Dave
I'd assume the E would remain on 53rd., but extra trains added due to some F capacity being shifted to 63rd.
By "E and F lines" I think they mean simply the "Queens Blvd Express", not that both lines would be rerouted. That's generally the way the media refers to subway lines. Just like articles on Canal St. might refer to the unused express platform as "the lower level N & R tracks". Of course, the R never normally ran there.
I'm still trying to figure out how the E/F tracks in Queens will handle the 17 EXTRA trains per hour the article boasts will be added. Obviously the author of the article is not fluent in rail topics.
Good question. If the connector only handles express service on Queens Blvd, I don't see how it can increase capacity. You're simply moving the merge from 5Th Avenue over to 36th street. My understanding is that since the R has to share 60th street with the N there can't be a full load of locals, and that this would provide an alternate route around the 60th street tunnel and reduce congestion between the N and R. Of course, since everyone transfers to the expresses on Queens Blvd anyway, this would mean that nobody would use the new service.
I believe that TAs goal is to utilize local tracks (under capacity now) more, bypassing QP could perhaps do the job.
If we want to dream up our own perfect plan here we should consider:
1. There is a lot of feeder service to QB exp tracks above and including Forest Hills. Rerouting buses could help the big picture.
2. Local tracks are NOT POPULAR. The service pattern should force (suggest/intoduce etc.)people to use it. The fact is that they are not that much slower especially having enough frequent service (not the case now)
3. The only way to increase capacity on exp tracks is to eliminate merges (single route line like 7)
Arti
Of equal importance is that the 63rd St connector maintains capacity in the face of maintenance work, police activity and the like. An older tunnel may be repaired without reducing service to Manhattan - the TA simply reroutes it. Similarly, trains blocked by a track fire, heart attack victim, etc. can be rerouted. And absolute capacity can be increased somewhat by smarter use of signals and schedules combined with additional capacity crossing the river.
I wonder if there's a hidden message in the accompanying photo (of a sewer pipe instead of a subway tunnel)? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is it possible, or am I just dreaming that train just passed across the street from me with R142's on it. I didn't think they would run by this early.
Shawn
Yeah it was! It just came back on the closer track. It was two Canadian Pacific GP's. The car numbers were 6321 - 6325. This is totally awesome. I'm hoping they'll go by again :)
Shawn
Hmm... now that I look at the R142 delivery notes on this site, I think I got the car numbers wrong. It says that 6321-6330 have been at East 180th since 8/8/2000. Hey it was dark out there! :)
You might have, but I did see 6321-6330 at East 180th St over this past weekend. This past Friday, 6301-6310 were also there. The Subway Series R142 (6311-6320) passed my Redbird 2 train at Prospect last Tuesday night so they should be in service.
Umm, can someone tell me how there are 2 types of R142's on one line?
I saw 2 R142's on the same day on the 2 line. One was the normal R142, and one was the Subway Series train.
It's simple. One set was in testing while the other set, the Yankess Train, was in revenue service. Take off the wrap and you'll see the same 142.
-Stef
I got to see the Subway Series train at 241st St. Saturday night. It pulled in to 241st at (I think) about 9:20, but it was announced that it was going out of service and into the yard, so I didn't actually get to ride it. The "wrapped" car is No. 6315, and was at the north end. 6320 was at the south end, meaning that 6316 an 6311 were coupled to each other in the middle. And yes, the "springs" were installed between the two halves of the train so that there was not a yawning gap between them into which someone might fall. I think I read here that this wasn't done duing the "30 day" testing.
Each car (except 6315) had, or was supposed to have, a Mets logo on one end and a Yankees logo at the other. A couple of them had fallen off, though.
They are not in service as 6321-25 just arrived. 6336-45 are in test mode right now.....
-Stef
Delivery Notes are wrong. Someone other than myself reported that 6321-30 were here, but that doesn't seem to be the case. 6321-25 passed north on the way to East 180th Street Yard, 30 mins ago. Diesels 50, 52, and 891 were motive power with an R-14 work car. There were NO SBK engines on this train, a first. Do you suppose someone was reading last week's post about SBK Loco assignments?
-Stef
What I really wish I could do now is setup some video recording of the tracks across the street with some kinda decent zoom to catch the car numbers. At 5:30, when the train passed me it was still dark and making the numbers out with my eyes was a challenge (especially since I didn't get any sleep). You could probably do it with a regular camcorder. Set it up to record from 4:00 to 8:00 or whatever Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays if that's possible. Of course I could just set my alarm and be up at those times :)
Anyone wanna lend me their camcorder and tripod? :)
Shawn
#1 train kills man as he leaves.
MAN KILLED BY FREAK ACCIDENT ON 1 TRAIN
Peace,
ANDEE
As usual the press gets the story wrong.
The person was removed from the train for being drunk and disorderly, the police placed him on the platform w/ his back against the pillar. When the train exited the station he fell over and his head hit the side of the train. The C/R did not see it happen because it happened after the first 3 cars had entered the tunnel, but needless to say TA is trying to place the blame on the C/R.
New Model Train Show at Bronx Botanical Gardens
BOTANICAL GARDEN TRAIN SHOW
Peace,
ANDEE
EXTREMELY DETAILED!!!
Where is this? What are the hours? Until when? Cost?
The New York Botanical Garden
I happen to live within 5 blocks of the Bronx Botanical Gardens if you are interested in going drop me an e-mail and maybr we can hook up.
Peace,
ANDEE
Because of my procrastination I missed out on the ERA Newark PCC trip, so the BMTman & I decided to due some railfanning.
With my grandson in tow we started early on the LIRR, then to the World Trade Center, via a Red Bird to Chambers, for some MetroCard trading with another internet friend. There the BMTman joined us, here are the highlights:
- PATH to Exchange Place
- HBLR to 34th Street (some nice high speed runs ... on the way back the operator showed us what happens when you exceed the speed limit); then back to Liberty State Park to take the other branch to West Side Ave; now on to the NEW end of the line at Newport.
- PATH to 33rd Street where we called Stef
- B uptown to 161st Street to see the House that Ruth Built
- 4 (a Red Bird) down to 149th
- 2 (another Red Bird) uptown to Jackson where Stef yelled out his window that he would be right down.
- 5 to E 180 where we decided to get off & photo the old NYW & B station. Before we continued uptown the Yankee wrap came by going downtown. We also observed them breaking up a Red Bird set in the yard. A very interesting complex.
- 5 to Dyre Ave, we observed the R-142 test track along the way, then a return trip on the #5 down to 14th Street.
- L to Canarsie, our female T/O realy pushed the timers going down & under the East River. It was a very pleasent Slant 40 ride.
- B17 RTS to the BMTman's house where we switched to his green monster.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, it was one of the most rail-intensive fan trips I've done in a long time.
Although I didn't need to take LIRR to get into Manhattan (I did L to Bway Junction then A to Chambers), I would hazzard a guess that Thurston and his grandson covered more than 75 miles by rail from 10 am to 3:30 pm.
And at no point did we have to wait more than five minutes for a connection on NYCT (correction: at 161st Street we might have had to wait somewhere between 7 or 10 mintues for the southbound #4). Not bad ocerall, though.
(Now if only Mother Nature had behaved on Sunday...)
BMTman
Speaking of Sunday's foul weather - is there a rain date for the Brooklyn Waterfront Railway tour?
Yes
Thanks
The upcoming events list... duh...
OPPPS! I forgot to alert Dave about the date change.
Yes, weather permitting the time and place remain the same.
Date is: Sunday, December 3rd.
BMTman
"Date is: Sunday, December 3rd."
or
is it the following Sunday, Dec. 10th ?????
Mr t__:^)
With my cold still hanging around I think the 10th with be the new date.
BMTman
Thanks for the trip. Now do you see why I have railfan adventures from the apartment window? I'm so damn close!!!
-Stef
After a full WET day of Santa on the Trolley at BERA Sunday, I got to New Haven RR station at 5:25pm for my 5:59pm ride to Grand Central and the waiting room was packed.
I looked up at the Board, now this is not Penn station; it only shows seven trains and has a two-line info line on the bottom. It showed 7 Amtrak trains (6 Boston Bound) all of 5 of them marked delayed and two well past their station arrival time but still showing "ON TIME" sign.
Normally they also post arriving and departing Metro North trains, not tonight. The parking lot was full of buses all marked AMTRAK. While waiting they announced that Amtrak Springfield customers should go to the buses. Instead of breaking up a train they will use all the coaches to Boston (Back Bay only, the train was not going to South Station) and Springfield pax would be bused.
Finally they announce MNRR 5:59 on track 3 (this is normally the North (east) bound Amtrak track (the platform for track 1 and 3 the least amount of walking is for Amtrak trains normally).
Amazing there are 3 Amtrak trains in the station (2 east/north, one west/south) one eastbound (F40) pulls out and a double-headed AEM7 (east) pulls in behind it. The west bound (AEM7) leaves, it better since it will be leading us and stopping at Bridgeport and Stamford. As we leave the station throat we pass another east bound Amtrak and further down we pass three more east bound Amtrak trains one that was only three cars.
Anyone know what happened or was this normal Thanksgiving Sunday service??
This is normal - Thanksgiving Sunday is the heaviest travel day of the year and there just isn't enough equipment to go around, or track to run it on either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
An article in today's New York Times states that Jamaica is hoping for a rebirth with a large GAP and Old Navy store being opened in the area, as well as a 15-screen movie theater complex.
Here's the most interesting quote from the article:
Mr. Meeks and other players on the economic development scene in Jamaica are pinning much hope on the AirTrain. The light rail system to J.F.K. will stop in Jamaica by 2003, at an overhauled Jamaica Station at Sutphin Boulevard and Archer Avenue, where the E, J and Z subway trains and the Long Island Rail Road stop. The vision is that Jamaica, which will be linked to the airport by an 8- to 16-minute ride on the AirTrain, will be a major transportation hub with enough appeal to lure people out of the station and into the neighborhood to eat and shop.
It took a while but I think people are finally realizing that the demise of the Jamaica El wasn't a good idea after all.
Banking on Jamaica's Promise of Economic Rebirth, and Hoping It Spreads
--Mark
An article in today's New York Times states that Jamaica is hoping for a rebirth with a large GAP and Old Navy store being opened in the area, as well as a 15-screen movie theater complex.
Here's the most interesting quote from the article:
Mr. Meeks and other players on the economic development scene in Jamaica are pinning much hope on the AirTrain. The light rail system to J.F.K. will stop in Jamaica by 2003, at an overhauled Jamaica Station at Sutphin Boulevard and Archer Avenue, where the E, J and Z subway trains and the Long Island Rail Road stop. The vision is that
Jamaica, which will be linked to the airport by an 8- to 16-minute ride on the AirTrain, will be a major transportation hub with enough appeal to lure people out of the station and into the neighborhood to eat and shop.
It's not easy for me to see how that idea could work, given the purposes for which Jamaica station will be used. It's a reasonable assumption that most AirTrain users will be interested solely in getting to and from the airport in the least amount of time. Most of those arriving from the airport on AirTrain will hop on the next LIRR train to Penn Station, while people arriving on the LIRR will grab the next AirTrain. And I would doubt if most waits for the next train/AirTrain would be long enough to permit much exploration of the neighborhood. In addition, most of the passengers will be carrying some luggage, which itself will discourage exploration.
I'm not saying that Jamaica will never be redeveloped. But waiting for AirTrain as the savior is a mistake.
Air Tran is destined to fail. When I was a doorman, all I did was hail cabs for rich people on the Upper East Side, going to the airports. I also opened the doors for them arriving from the airports as well. MY POINT? These people are the ones who use airports the most, and not one of them will use AIRTRAN. These people have the money to pay for a cab to pick them up at the airport, and drop them off right in front of their destination. The same can be said for tourists. Use common sense. JFK is an international airport. Many flights at JFK are coming from foreign countries, which means people are arriving with large amounts of luggage, as opposed to carry on bags. Who is going to chase down a monorail train with 200 pounds+ of luggage, swithch at Jamaica, come to NYC, and then have to take a cab to their NYC destination anyway?????????????????????????????? AirTran is yet another example of just how behind the times NY is, when it comes to planning.
Many flights at JFK are coming from foreign countries,
Many of these international tourists are more adept and more used to using mass transportation that we are. Even if they are carrying lots of luggage. They may see this as goodness.
I also wonder how many people from Howard Beach might use AirTrain as an 'express bus", kind of the way the "Train to the Plane" was used during its run.
--Mark
Experiences at other airports (such as Chicago, Atlanta and Philadelphia) suggest that rail links to airports can be very successful.
Those who have predicted AirTrain's failure have tended to look at the project from a very narrow perspective. AirTrain by itself will not renew Jamaica - just as the Archer Avenue tunnel by itself did not renew Jamaica. What these projects did, however, was provide the needed stimulus for private investors and other govt. agencies to invest. The Archer Av tunnel was a stunning success by this measure. Ridership from there has also been high. The newspaper article points to hotel plans - an airport conference center in Jamaica was made possible by AirTrain. Without it, no one would ave considered a project like that at all.
Those who ride luxury limousines to luxury hotels on Park Av may not use Airtrain - but predicting New Yorker's behavior based on that is a little like predicting how the average joe will cross town by looking at how Mayor Guiliani does it. It is an invalid comparison.
International travellers will probably flock to Airtrain, especially those coming from Tokyo, Paris, London and other cities where they took a train to get to their departing flight.
The Manhattan upper class will continue to use there mode of transportation to the airport. This is a fact. But the rest will be using the Air Train as a better way to get to the airport instead of being stuck in traffic. Also, you totally forgot to mention riders that might be coming from Long Island to use the Air Train. They to might be willing to use instead of driving if they don't have too much luggage. Time will tell how successfully they plan on marketting this to the right people.
As for Jamaica itself, it has come along way from what it sued to be. With this development, the police presence must be increased as well if there is to be any hope of ridding the area of crime so that shoppers can feel comfortable about going to the area for shopping.
It'll never be the same as it was before 9/11/77. And how many businesses were destroyed by this colossal transit blunder? Too many to count.
I remain as millitant about this subject as ever, even if the area rebounds.
The only blunder worth noting was not completing the full Archer Av project before the Jamaica El was taken down. Replacing an old rickety elevated with a new subway is a blessing - but you have to execute it right.
The el was neither old or rickety in 1977. With so many other transit needs, spending billions to replace a perfecty good el is a waste.
I'm afraid I can't agree there. Demolition of the Jamaica El was something a lot of people in the community wanted for a long time. Old style Elevated lines are noisy, but the advantages of keeping them far outweigh tearing them down - unless a new subway replaces them.
This does not mean they didn't want rail service. Clearly, their desire was for modern, clean, safe subway service in the area. But the removal of a half-mile of bridge, the removal of the noise and restoring of sunshine to the neighborhood had a salubrious effect. The fact that New York was broke in the 1970's and early 1980's meant that the benefits of the new subway would be delayed, however. The accomplishments of the Archer Av project, delayed though it was, are clearly documented.
If the Second Avenue subway (from the Bronx to Whitehall) had been completed at the same time that the Els on the East Side were torn down, no one would be crying today - just the opposite.
The MBTA in Boston spent $750 million placing the Orange Line underground (or in a concrete trench) and removing the old elevated line. No one wants the elevated back. (For those of you not entirely familiar with Boston, if you watch old reruns of St. Elsewhere on Bravo channel, the Orange Line is the elevated train passing by the building representing the fictional St. Eligius Hospital).
Wasn't the original complaint that yes, they were taking the el down, but the new subway would terminate way west and south of where the el was, and by extension, well west and south of the Jamaica business district of Mays, Gertz, and others?
If they tunneled the new subway under Jamaica Avenue, that would have meant hell for the bus terminal and surrounding areas, not to mention the businesses themselves in restricted access to their businesses during the project, which would have taken years -- far beyond the staying power of any business faced with such an adversity.
So -- a fully functional if unsightly el was torn down and replaced with a subway of marginal utility to the communities once served by the el. It may have created another business hub around Sutphin Blvd and Parsons Blvd on Archer Avenue (the new courthouse on Sutphin is one bright example), but I can't imagine that there was a substantial net GAIN in business by the introduction of the subway -- just a slow and incomplete shift. Am I wrong?
The new subway was indeed shorter than it was supposed to be. There can be no excuses for that (though NY's bankruptcy affected this, obviously).
However, the J service is now integrated with LIRR facilities (and will be with AirTrain), which is a significant improvement. If you don't believe so, maybe you're one of the few who genuinely enjoy running through driving rain, snow and icy sidewalks in the winter to transfer between the subway and the railroad. And the new E service is definitely a plus, especially the station at Jamaica/Van Wyck.
I personally would like to see the Archer Av service extended further (stops at Merrick Blvd. and beyond). This is not impossible to do - find allies, lobby legislators, and try to get the MTA to add a project to the capital plan. Difficult, yes, time-consuming, yes, and be prepared for the long-haul (years). But nothing is ever impossible, if you're determined enough.
I love the Archer extension, and your points are all well-taken. I am an example of someone who has taken the subway to Jamaica station for LIRR service, and exited to the street and spent money in Jamaica while waiting for an arriving LIRR train.
My wish, is that the city would restore the stretch of missing express track on Jamaica Ave on the J train, and run some kind of express service from Sutphin, right to Downtown Manhattan. Downtown needs better service for people coming from the suburbs.
I agree with you. Skip-stop service is a cheap answer to a two-track arrangement, but if there were a way to provide peak direction express service with at least a third track, I'd certainly prefer it.
I love what's happened to downtown Jamaica, and I hope the progress continues. There's still blight as you get further away from the business district, so there's obviously work to be done.
Wasn't the original complaint that yes, they were taking the el down, but the new subway would terminate way west and south of where the el was, and by extension, well west and south of the Jamaica business district of Mays, Gertz, and others?
What may have contributed to Jamaica's decline was not the fact that the Archer Avenue subway is a block south of the old Jamaica Avenue el. No, it's the fact that the el was demolished more than a decade before the subway opened, leaving the area without any rapiad transit service for the duration.
I put "may" in italics because transit issues probably were only part of the reasons behind Jamaica's problems. The area's declining income levels and competition from newer shopping areas elsewhere surely were major factors.
Mr. Rosa's points are astute and well-supported.
What I don't understand was, why didn't they just leave the el up. You could have had service over the el and also through the Archer Av extension. It would be similar the to the A where you have some service to Lefferts and some to Far Rockaway. I would have liked to see that.
Shawn
Think it's more crowded? It's not in your head.
Subway and bus ridership are way up. From 1992 to 1999, the average weekday subway ridership rose by 867,000 and bus ridership by 476,000, according to New York City Transit. "We're carrying a million more people today on our subways and buses than we were carrying in 1997," said Al O'Leary, a transit spokesman.
From the Sunday New York Times, 11/26/00, The State of the City: Packed Like Sardines
--Mark
Boy, those R30's would sure come in handy these days ...
Riding home on the 4 from GCT, as we went through Spring Street I looked over at the uptown local platform and above the conductor board was a LED sign that sait "Waiting for Train".
Okay what is the sign doing for the conductor?
Has this been posted before, if so sorry I'm not that much up on Div. A stuff.
Obviously, not much. If the sign is waiting for a train, than there is no CR there. If this works like the ones at Grand Central, when the train arrives in the station, it will begin counting down from some number ( GC is 45 seconds) and then make the suggestion to "Close Doors", then count up to show the train's delay time at the station.
In 1998 they enforced a Rule at 42nd Street Grand Central That the Southbound Expresses ( 4 & 5) have up to 45 seconds for people to detrain and entrain and then there would be a TSS there telling you to close down and proceed
Taking a 4 train from GCT to Atlantic Ave at 7:40pm Sunday. The train was held at GCT for 3 minutes. Then at Brooklyn Bridge for 4 minutes then at Bowling green for a whopping 6 minutes. We got there at 7:56 and did not leave until 8:03. Then at Nevins for the 2 connection but that was 4 more minutes and not to say you miss your LIRR departure by a minute (and my D connection by seconds).
So was this 4 train so HOT that it had to be gapped at all these stations. I mean we made up THAT much time between Brooklyn Bridge and Bowling Green (are these gap stations?)??
Strange and frustrating!!!
There was probably a big gap in service behind that train you were on.
try some other time to change handle to a simpler one
"" los angeles mta ""
Like I said, if you want a handle change you can email me.
Friday I had no classes, so I decided to take a ride on the transit. I took a train to Queensboro Plaza, transferred to an train to Astoria Blvd. I then took an M60 bus to 125/Lex. I then took a train all the way up to Dyre Av, take the next out of Dyre to Pelham Parkway, and waited for a train that I saw as I was coming down there. I took that train to Bowling Green. After walking around there a little bit, I grabbed an train and took it to DeKalb. I waited a moment for the train, which took me to Church Avenue. Here are my observations:
-A train of R142A cars was on the middle track of East 180th Street. The consist was
7280-7279-7278-7277-7276-7245-7244-7243-7242-7241
-Cars 6301 through 6310 were on the track to the right of the northbound to Dyre.
-Cars on both these trains were doing some kind of test pattern. The R142A cars were showing numbers 1 through 9 on the route and horizontal and verical lines on the message portion of the side signs. The R142 cars were alternating left side/right side on all the dot-matrix displays, and the mosaic displays were showing triangles, alternating bottom-left/top-right.
-I noticed a car on the line that had the end route sign positioned between and , which led me to a hypothesis that can be reached through this link.
-The train I was on was a train of R32 cars. #3730 was the second car from the front.
-The R32 cars I was on on the train had some signs showing an upside-down " Astoria-Broadway" reading.
I intended to go to Coney Island, but I didn't have enough time. Oh, well.
According to a General Order I saw, the R142 is supposed to be track testing on the F line(Culver portion). I think testing will be done around the clockwith the exception of rush hours.
One of us should have posted our intentions, looks like we could have railfaned with quite a group !
Mr t__:^)
When I left the ERA NCS shop tour, I took PATH to WTC to inquire at the TKTS store about the availability of good seats for a particular Sat matinee. The line looked to be about 1.5 hours long, so I rode the 1 train to 50th Street and paid full price for tickets for this coming Saturday. I considered subfanning at that point, but crapped out and rode the 1 back to WTC, PATH to Newark, NJT to Hamilton, and drove home (40 miles).
Bob
Something I forgot: while waiting at Pelham Parkway, I saw a southbound train of red cars, out of service, passing through the station at full speed. It didn't slow down at all.
Couldn't get out to HBLR's grand opening of the Newport extension that weekend, but had ample time on Thursday before the feast. Couldn't care less about football; this leads many people to question my masculinity. Too cold to take the boy, so I could really take my time.
QBX1 over lightly trafficked Whitestone Bridge to Pelham Bay Station; BX12 Artic all the way to 207th Street. All stores in Fordham Road shopping district appeared open; double parking and bus jammed with shopping baggers was identical to that on any weekend. Bus cut off by Domino delivery car (on THANKSGIVING?!) near Fordham U White Castle (which was also open).
First 'A' to leave was R-38, but reeking of ammonia from cleaning. Passed it up for R-44 which oozed down CPW, but went on the usual splendid rampage from 59th down to 14th. I never saw such a speed difference from one direction to the other. 'D' was running local up CPW; there must have been switch work either above 125th or below 59th again. 'C' was running normally in both directions.
Off at West 4th; down long, winding corridor to 9th Street PATH station. JSQ train came immediately after HOB, so it was rather slow going under the river. It looks like some employees put up a Christmas tree and lights right after the Hoboken-Pavonia split. Nice touch, but who's gonna see it for very long?
After exiting at Pavonia and crossing the Boulevard, there was a sign at the entrance to the office building you go through to get to the Mall: MALL CLOSED- MOVIES OPEN. The 'tunnel' cut through a building extension was also gated off. This angered some people who came "all the way from Brooklyn" to shop. They shoulda gone to Fordham Road. With New York having gotten rid of sales tax on clothing, there shouldn't be any more incentive to go to Jersey.
Made it through the winding corridors and revolving doors to the (no guide signs) light rail platform. The configuration forced me to walk all the way around the northern end just in time to miss the train. The fifteen minute flew by while I tried to figure out how to ride the whole system within the alotted ninety minutes while factoring in a weekend schedule and multiple changes. A few curiosity seekers milled about, asking if this was the "new train to New York".
It moved at a glacial pace all the way to Jersey Avenue, although the views of the skyline made it bearable. Very cute bridge over a ramp descending into the mall parking lot. You do see a hint of Jersey City's industrial past by dint of some huge warehouse buildings just as the ROW swings east across Washington Boulevard toward Harborside. Some Bayonne trains seem to lay up between Harismus and Harborside; I don't know if they went this far to turn around when Exchange Place was the end of the line.
In and out of West Side with very few passengers. There was a terrific view of Kearney, Newark, the attendant oil tanks and the Watchungs in the background. We got back to Liberty Park just as the Bayonne train pulled in on the other side. The operator was nice enough to wait. The usual speedy ride in and out of Bayonne followed. A huge parking lot is under construction at 34th Street, connected to the platform by a very high pedestrian bridge. The size of the lot indicates they may be expecting people to drive over from Staten Island to use HBLR. I can't see it.
Changed at the Park rather than Exchange to get all the way back to Newport. The shelter at the Park's inbound platform has wonderful glass cuttings of various railroad logos and symbols. Fortunately, this is far enough away from any residential areas for the graffiti vandals to strike- so far, anyway. The last train back to Newport was typically slow but scenic. My ticket ran short by about nine minutes, but nobody 'got' me. Holiday, I guess-
It was still early, so I walked along the waterfront back to Exchange. There are bits and pieces of promenade interrupted by the everpresent construction sites. Strangely, directly east of the Pavonia/Newport entrance, in a vacant fenced-off lot surrounded by new high-rises, is the gantry of a kiosk with a Pavonia/Newport sign and PATH logo, but no hole in the ground for an entrance! A few naked light fixtures hung down from above. Was this an old entrance that was shut down and filled up, or a projected entrance for when everything is occupied? Very strange sight!
You can tell it's an 'up-and-coming' neighborhood, because on some some streets off Washington north of Harborside, where there are still just holes in the ground, every light pole had a sign advertising cleaning people. Tacit message: all these high-rises are going to be loaded with Yuppies who'll be at their offices all day, bars and gyms all night, and in the Hamptons all weekend, so they'll be too busy and successful to clean their own apartments.
Back at WTC Sbarro's was open, but Borders' was closed. Had to trek over bridge to Winter Garden for restroom. The dramatic wrap-around stairway was photo backdrop to several weddings, even on T-giving.
This all sure beat having to drive to some relative's house.
Another Thanksgiving week-end railfan success story. As you may have seen the BMTman & I followed in your footsteps (almost) a day after.
BTW, Thanks for riding with QSC :-0
Mr t
I heart that HBLR now allows you to use one validated ticket all day on weekends, rather than being subject to the usual time limitation. Is this correct, and is this in effect for holidays too?
Well, it appeared that that may in fact be the case. Thurston went and purchased a set of round-trip tickets for his grandson and himself before I got the chance to warn him that just a one-way ticket ($1.50) would have been fine per person. I told him that my experience has been that you can do the entire HBLR (including both branches) within the 90 minute time-frame (just no dawdling).
And yes, on weekends the ticket enforcement agents do not appear to be around, so one-way tickets with apparently no time limit seem to be the norm (translation: unlimited riding).
BMTman
Until January 31 2001 on weekends and holidays is $1.50 for all day riding. Also parking is free until 1/31/01. And there is enforcement going on and they show up randomly. Last time I was there(yesterday) they rode all the way from Liberty to Newport checking everybody over and over. Train was packed until Exchange Place, then just a few pax to Newport. BTW crew change occured at Harborside on my train.
The "kiosk to nowhere" will access the side platform; construction should be finished by Spring, 2002.
New week and Follo hasn't asked yet so I will:
If any one knows about the Manhattan Bridge reroutes can you post on Subtalk on what lines will go were.
Thank You
SORRY, I just laughed my head off over at bustalk and had to share.
The current plan is to convert Manhattan Bridge to IRT spec. ALL nubered lines will go over it and never return.
Arti
I'll drink to that. I never liked the IRT anyway. The BMT was where it was at. The IRT was older but strictly minor league. I'm sure there are those who disagree with me, but so what. We all have our opinions. I liked your piece. It was humerous and takes the sting out of the fact that the Manny B's future is still up for grabs.
We mustn't be so serious, really what we are about is dreamers. so lets dream on!
Arti
They were almost a month late, but I finally got my pictures back. They were taken on my October 18 return trip on Amtrak's Vermonter. I have posted some of the pics online:
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/Amt_2003.jpg
Amtrak ACELA trainsets in the Penn Coach Yard.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/Amt_656.jpg
Amtrak HHP-8 with train in Penn Station.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/LIAR_9789.jpg
LIAR MU 9789 taken just as my train emerged from the East River tube to find the LIAR train pacing us on the adjacent track.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/F.jpg
The immortal F interlocking tower as she stands today.
I have a whole bunch more, but they are all tower shots.
very nice !! brings back memories of my trip there about 3 weeks ago
also do you have a website ?? could you please post more shots??
I may of missed it and can't find it, or it hasn't been posted yet, but has it been determined at what speed the collision occured?
Thanks !!
In today's Washington Post. Early next month, Metro will run empty 8 car trains at night to see if it is practical. Metro is concerned about if the power system can handle it and what will happen if the trains overshoot the platform. They said how PATH trains didn't open the first car at Exchange Place on the 8 car trains (I've never witnessed this, I only took PATH once from Hoboken to 33rd Street). They also said now that trains are ATO, they may be able to do it. My opinion/comments:
1. The train can still overshoot or stop short by about 2 feet and all the doors will be ajar.
2. Run 8 car trains on Shady Grove/Glenmont red lines only, run 6 car blue line trains.
3. When the new cars arrive, don't run all red lines to Shady Grove. The passengers at Woodley won't like it because they can barely get on as it is. Instead, keep current service or start skip stop service in the peak direction as follows:
Shady Grove: ALL STOP
Rockville: ALL STOP
Twinbrook: A Trains
White Flint: B Trains
Grosvenor-Strathmore: ALL STOP
Medical Center: A Trains
Bethesda: B Trains
Friendship Heights: A Trains
Tenleytown: B Trains
Van Ness-UDC: ALL STOP
Cleveland Park: A Trains
Woodley Park: B Trains
DuPont Circle, Farragut North, Metro Center, Gallery Place, Judicuary Square, Union Station: ALL STOP
Rhode Island Avenue: A Trains
Brookland-CUA: B Trains
Fort Totten: ALL STOP
Takoma: A Trains
Silver Spring: ALL STOP
Forest Glen: B Trains
Wheaton: A Trains
Glenmont: ALL STOP
4. When trains run manual, run 6 car trains.
5. ORDER MORE CARS!!!
I agree with you, except that I think that All trains should stop at Wheaton. Also, I guess you are sorta suggesting a system like the MFL in Philadelphia, with A and B trains.
I have revised it since last night.
SHADY GROVE, ROCKVILLE, GROSVENOR, FRIENDSHIP HEIGHTS, DUPONT CIRCLE, FARRAGUT NORTH, METRO CENTER, JUDICUARY SQUARE, UNION STATION, FORT TOTTEN, SILVER SPRING, WHEATON, AND GLENMONT ARE ALL STOP.
TWINBROOK, MEDICAL CENTER, TENLEYTOWN, CLEVELAND PARK, RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, AND TAKOMA ARE "A" STOPS.
ALL OTHERS AER "B" STOPS.
I think there is a problem with that. I will get a final draft soon.
Wonder why WMATA didn't anticipate increasing ridership and build express tracks and stations -- at least one for peak-direction use. It would be relatively easy to add an extra track to some of the surface (non-subway) lines, such as The Orange Line on I-66. It would be harder to add express tracks on the elevated routes, such as the Red Line or Yellow Line, but not impossible. It would be impossible to add express tracks in the subway.
Surely they had heard of population growth in the 1970s, and surely the highways were beginning to show signs of crowding. If there wasn't the dough to build the 3rd or 4th track at project inception, they could have at least designed the system with future expansion in mind.
When Metro was designed and built, no one could conceive of the DC area being anything but a government center. Metro was conceived primarily to shuttle 9-5 bureaucrats between downtown and suburban points in a hub-and-spoke fashion -- that it's now the second busiest rapid transit system in the US and catering to a vastly different ridership with a vastly different geographical configuration simply couldn't be anticipated. While it would have made sense to provide for possible 3 or 4 track operations, the projected ridership based on the 1960s/70s demographics couldn't justify the expense.
Besides, it's a lot cheaper to just run the trains at shorter headways.
the subject is self explanatory.
R62, Redbirds, R32. Can't stand the R44, R46, or R68.
I feel just the opposite. I can't stand sitting only in seats where you have to face directly at other people. Some people have nothing else to do but stare at you back and it is really annoying.
I agree. Also, on trains with benches, people frequently try to sit on a bench that's already full. Nobody will give up their seat, so the result is 7 uncomfortable people.
Perhaps this is among one of my favorite pet peeves.
People who so highly-values subway seating as if there is no tomorrow. I really hate people who does that and there is never a lack of abundance on the #7 line. A seat is just a thing where you can rest for ... 25-30 minutes average on #7 from Main St to Manhattan. It's just a seat! I never want to compete with them as they really act like children fighting over a toy. And they'll have to give it up sooner or later.
Even worse peeve than that, is people who fight over a seat at Main St, only to get off at Junction Blvd (I've seen them before)
One more, (sorry about the rant)... is when passengers walk slowly through the train to your car, which happened to be nearest to the exit, and rushes to get to the escalator first and proceeded to not walk down the moving escalator and even turns around to the impatient ones behind them and say "you could've just walked around to the stairs".
Maybe sitting isn't a big enough deal, but these people are fightin over is the avoidance of standing, which is annoying and painful (I can walk 20 kilometers, but it's a lot WORSE to stand in the same place for any period of time).
As for those who get off at Junction Boulevard, why does that annoy you? When they vacate their seat, someone else can sit there. More people get to have use of the seats.
Those R62's and Reds are really a classic, aren't they?
If the redbirds EVER get retired, to reserve the best 10 cars they could find on the fleet, and preserve them in the Transit Museum down in brooklyn.
BTW I meant trains such as the A line, B line, E line,etc.....
OK. So again this is purely subjective:
IRT: The 7 is my favorite, partly out of Queens loyalty, but also becasue it really is a wonderful, special line. Neighborhoods of every New York nationality, views of the Midtown Manhattan skyline, Shea Stadium, the Worlds Fairgrounds, The US Tennis Center. Even the neighborhoods themselves are cool looking. And the mosaics and nameplate in the underground Main St are some of the most beautifully restored (shame there are island platforms and they are almost always covered by trains!) IRT walls in the system. And the rebuilt 33rd, 40th, and 46th are unique outdoor stations.
I also love the 1 out of nostalgia. As I said in a previous post, it was the first train I rode on my own. And it is a cool line with mostly unruined IRT stations.
BMT: Elevated lines are their specialty. And certainly anything going to Coney Island has its own special charm. But I'm drawn to the J for its views of many less touristy areas (some with good reason) of Brooklyn and Queens. But this line is not to be explored during off hours.
The N and R have two beautiful stations along 59th: 5th and especially Lexington. But most of the Broadway line is not so memorable.
IND: The least interesting in my estimation. I suppose the A and D along Central Pk. West and the E and F along Queens Blvd have long distances between express stops. So if you go during off hours you might actually move!
:)Andrew
>>>"If the redbirds EVER get retired, to reserve the best 10 cars they could find on the fleet, and preserve them in the Transit
Museum down in brooklyn. "
Yeah, I think that an entire train of these should be preserved - not just a single, non-operational R-33. Then it would be possible to run "Redbird Nostalgia Trains" from time to time.
These IRT redbirds are not insignificant cars - they are the last non-stainless steel cars in the NYCTA fleet and the last U.S.-manufactured IRT division cars (Bombardier counting as Canadian),
And in terms of railfanning, the later R-62 and other newer IRT cars don't quite have the same feel to me.
If the redbirds EVER get retired, to reserve the best 10 cars they could find on the fleet, and preserve them in the Transit Museum down in brooklyn
Max 1 car in the museum !!. They don't have room for 10 of them !!
OK. In that case, its the 2 for the IRT, I don't do the B division much and haven't done alot of it.
My own favorites, for no good reason other than the looks of 'em"
IRT: Everything. The redbirds are really good looking trains, which is not to say I'll be terribly sorry to see tose go. They deserved their long lives, but now they've outlived their usefulness.
I have a special thing for the R62s because the 1 was the first line I rode by myself, back in the 1980's.
IND/BMT: R32s. R42s. R68s. All good looking trains for different reasons. And though I don't really like the look of the R46s (and R44s), I guess I'm used to them (being an F rider.) I just hate those digital side signs.
I'm glad to see that someone else likes the R-42. It's nothing spectacular -- in fact, I think that's why I like it. It doesn't try to be flashy in any way.
(It's not my favorite but it's certainly better than anything that came after it.)
IRT: Redbirds and single R-62As.
IND/BMT: All 60-footers. They're all in a dead heat, but the R-32s have a slight edge, besides being a sentimental favorite.
Channel 7 News just ran a story on noise levels in NYC. The reporter walked around Manhattan with an audiologist and a noise meter. The results:
A mountain stream: 35 decibels (for comparison)
Walking down the street: 75 db
Danger point for humans: 85 db
#2 express passing thru a local station: 110 db
#1 local stopping at same station: 90 db
Stereo headphones: 110 db
Stereo headphones on subway: 120+ db (gotta crank it up to hear it over the train noise)
Airplane taking off: 140 db (for comparison)
If anyone has been up on local area news, they may be aware that waaaay out in the far reaches of Brooklyn (an area dubbed "Fresh Creek") there was a ground-breaking for a new mall complex last weekend. Apparently, the anchor store at the site will be Home Depot. I recall that either Costco or a B.J.'s will open there as well.
While driving on the Belt, I've noticed quite a bit of new fencing on the northside and an indication of where the off-ramp will be situated. I'd assume this will turn out to be either Exit 15 or 16. (Most drivers will note that Cross Bay Blvd., which is Exit 17, is then followed by Exit 14 which is Pennsylvania Ave.).
More importantly, the site in question has become a police-investigation crime scene because the body of a missing woman from Plainview, Long Island was found there over the weekend while some earth removal was in progress. It was also noted by news reports that another body was found -- a man with a gunshot wound to the head.
A friend of mine reminded me that that area -- out by Fountain Ave. -- has been a source of urban legend as a "Mafia dumping ground". He's been told that J. Gotti and Company were involved in some of the sordid affairs that occurred there, but that many bodies buried at that point on Jamaica Bay go back to the '30's and 40's when Murder Inc. (of East New York fame) was active. I have a strong feeling that that site will remain a crime scene for awhile as other bodies turn up as the construction continues.
BMTman
So far, 6 bodies have been dug up.
Huh? When did you hear this?
At this rate I expect an RTS bus-load of bodies will probably turn up.
Sorry about the morbid transit references....:-O
BMTman
Doug, that belongs on BusTalk! :)
I heard an estimate of 30 bodies expected to be unearthed in the construction, though I haven't heard about nos. 3-6 yet. The Erskine Street ramp will be exit 15.
Maybe they'll find Judge Crater. Jimmy Hoffa?
Yes this area right down the street from me. According to the NY Times, there will be a Home Depot, Target, and Olive Garden Restaurant among the many stores.
Train#1925Mike
....but first the bodies have to be identified...
BMTman
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well, unlike the 2Av subway, this will get built.
3TM
Yes this area right down the street from me. According to the NY Times, there will be a Home Depot, Target, and Olive Garden Restaurant among the many stores.
Train#1925Mike
....but first the bodies have to be identified...
BMTman
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well, unlike the 2Av subway, this will get built.
3TM
6321-6325 are at Linden Yard. I saw the cars from the gym where I work out at. I will be at Linden Wye to check things with BMTman. Stef, get ready they are on their way!!!
Train#1923Mike
Well as I was leaving my house, there was a red over red on the Livonia El. As I walked towards Livonia Station, I heard the horns blowing. I ran upstairs to meet BMTman, and 6321-6325 were making their way up to the Bronx. At Linden Yard there was one diesel attached to 6321. When it crossed the wye, there a R21/R22 car and another diesel attached to 6325. The time was 7:45pm as it crossed the wye. I wish I had my camera.
Train#1924Mike
YESSS! I finally got to see an R-142 delivery in progress!
I was at Livonia station (southbound side) from about 7:15 pm. I had heard one diesel-horn blast shortly after arriving, but nothing else. It wasn't till about 7:30 that things began happenning. First, I heard a diesel revving up from Linden -- then the glare of headlights up on the "Y" connection. Signs of train movements! At about this time, I'm wondering "where's Mike?". As luck would have it, he comes up the stairs just as the delivery fleet is coming into view from the darkness. First in the line was the lead loco, surprisingly a yellow MOW diesel(very spiffy looking in a bright new paint scheme). It was followed by a "rider car" (R-22 type), then the consist of brand-spanking new R-142s! VERRRRY NICE! I snapped off a few shots, but I doubt I'll get anything of significance as the distance was too great (it was difficult to even get car numbers.
Next time I'll be a-waiting at Junius Street on the New Lots Line (where the opportunity for better photo ops exists).
A nice way to start the week, for a change. :-)
P.S.: Stef should be seeing them passing his window right about the time this gets posted.
BMTman
DONE!!!! Bless your heart for advising me on silver and yellow objects of passion.....
-Stef
Your very welcome, Stef!
BMTman
I have a digital camera with a telephoto lens. I was tempted to try and get a snap shot from my window as the transfer passed by, but it would have flashed and I think night shots are really hard to get.
-Stef
Well as I was leaving my house, there was a red over red on the Livonia El. As I walked towards Livonia Station, I heard the horns blowing. I ran upstairs to meet BMTman, and 6321-6325 were making their way up to the Bronx. At Linden Yard there was one diesel attached to 6321. When it crossed the wye, there a R21/R22 car and another diesel attached to 6325. The time was 7:45pm as it crossed the wye. I wish I had my camera.
Train#1924Mike
YESSS! I finally got to see an R-142 delivery in progress!
I was at Livonia station (southbound side) from about 7:15 pm. I had heard one diesel-horn blast shortly after arriving, but nothing else. It wasn't till about 7:30 that things began happenning. First, I heard a diesel revving up from Linden -- then the glare of headlights up on the "Y" connection. Signs of train movements! At about this time, I'm wondering "where's Mike?". As luck would have it, he comes up the stairs just as the delivery fleet is coming into view from the darkness. First in the line was the lead loco, surprisingly a yellow MOW diesel(very spiffy looking in a bright new paint scheme). It was followed by a "rider car" (R-22 type), then the consist of brand-spanking new R-142s! VERRRRY NICE! I snapped off a few shots, but I doubt I'll get anything of significance as the distance was too great (it was difficult to even get car numbers.
Next time I'll be a-waiting at Junius Street on the New Lots Line (where the opportunity for better photo ops exists).
A nice way to start the week, for a change. :-)
P.S.: Stef should be seeing them passing his window right about the time this gets posted.
BMTman
DONE!!!! Bless your heart for advising me on silver and yellow objects of passion.....
-Stef
Your very welcome, Stef!
BMTman
I have a digital camera with a telephoto lens. I was tempted to try and get a snap shot from my window as the transfer passed by, but it would have flashed and I think night shots are really hard to get.
-Stef
Well as I was leaving my house, there was a red over red on the Livonia El. As I walked towards Livonia Station, I heard the horns blowing. I ran upstairs to meet BMTman, and 6321-6325 were making their way up to the Bronx. At Linden Yard there was one diesel attached to 6321. When it crossed the wye, there a R21/R22 car and another diesel attached to 6325. The time was 7:45pm as it crossed the wye. I wish I had my camera.
Train#1924Mike
YESSS! I finally got to see an R-142 delivery in progress!
I was at Livonia station (southbound side) from about 7:15 pm. I had heard one diesel-horn blast shortly after arriving, but nothing else. It wasn't till about 7:30 that things began happenning. First, I heard a diesel revving up from Linden -- then the glare of headlights up on the "Y" connection. Signs of train movements! At about this time, I'm wondering "where's Mike?". As luck would have it, he comes up the stairs just as the delivery fleet is coming into view from the darkness. First in the line was the lead loco, surprisingly a yellow MOW diesel(very spiffy looking in a bright new paint scheme). It was followed by a "rider car" (R-22 type), then the consist of brand-spanking new R-142s! VERRRRY NICE! I snapped off a few shots, but I doubt I'll get anything of significance as the distance was too great (it was difficult to even get car numbers.
Next time I'll be a-waiting at Junius Street on the New Lots Line (where the opportunity for better photo ops exists).
A nice way to start the week, for a change. :-)
P.S.: Stef should be seeing them passing his window right about the time this gets posted.
BMTman
DONE!!!! Bless your heart for advising me on silver and yellow objects of passion.....
-Stef
Your very welcome, Stef!
BMTman
I have a digital camera with a telephoto lens. I was tempted to try and get a snap shot from my window as the transfer passed by, but it would have flashed and I think night shots are really hard to get.
-Stef
I saw them, I saw them 1 hour ago!!!!! Spoke with BMTman for confirmation....
-Stef
let's hope this 6321 has a better fate than its R-16 predecessor.
A friend of mine who is a LIRR engineer called just now to tell me he saw some R-142's on flatcars at Fresh Pond yard (NY&A).
He was piloting his train on the LIRR Montauk division at the time. Sorry, he couldn't get any car numbers. I thought I'd pass this on.
Gee, R-142's and 142A's are coming in like wildfire, but aren't showing up in service except the two test trains. I wonder if the TA is gonna unleash a gang of them at once. Aren't they running out of storage space ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I watched them unload them off the flatcars for about an hour and half :) I took some pictures but I think they're gonna suck.
Shawn
Brooklyn Botanical
Gardens
i came home from montreal this past weekend for thanksgiving. it turned out i got more than i bargained for when i went down to my spot by the hudson line. MNRR must have been running plenty of extra service on friday. just one minute after i got down to the tracks, an amtrak empire liner passed by.. and before i knew it came the turboliner! i also saw a few express trains, couple woth genesis II's and a couple with FL9's. all in all i got to see almost all of the equipment run over the hudson line.. i also saw two fl9s back to back, one with mnrr livery and one with the new haven livery.. might not get to see those for much longer.. so the question you all ask, did he take pictures? YES! of course i did! and ill send em to dave for posting.. unfortunately i didnt get a picture of the back to back fl-9s.. theres nothing quite like an fl9 in the NH livery, i love it!
Is there any place we can maybe get pictures of the R142's crossing the Hellgate bridge. Those would be pretty damn amazing :)
Shawn
I have a view of the Hell Gate Bridge. Unfortunately, I don't have equipment powerful enough to get pictures from such a distance. This railfan has been known for railfanning CSX Freights with binoculars from his window.
-Stef
How about taking pictures of the cars from a walkway on the Triboro Bridge?
Good idea. Railfan the Subway while supporting Robert Moses at the same time!
The irony!
Is there even a walkway on the Triboro Bridge? :)
Shawn
yes there is
Hmm.. interesting. The only draw back I see now is that it's still really dark out when the they cross the Hellgate. Taking pictures from that far away, plus in the dark... dosen't sound like it would be worth it.
Shawn
The question should be is if you feel like being on the bridge while it's still dark. What are the chances of catching a 142 in broad daylight? Even I'm not sure!!!
-Stef
Being on the bridge while it's dark wouldn't bother me I think. I don't think there's a chance at all of catching a R142 in broad daylight. The delivery yesterday got into Fresh Pond by 6AM. Maybe we can beg Canadian Pacific to come down later in the day :)
If you're thinking about checking out the R142's from the bridge or
from the Astoria N station as someone suggested, let me know, I'll see if I can tag along.
My only problem with the timings of the R142 deliveries is that I have to get to work at a reasonable time also :) 1-9PM Mon+Tue, 10AM-6PM Wed-Fri. With this schedule I'm early to see them unloading the cars at Fresh Pond and too late to see them leaving for Linden.
Atleast I have a clear view of the tracks which are across the street now that the leaves have fallen off the trees. I wonder if they would be willing to rip them down for me hehe. I am able to read the car numbers from my kitchen window, so I'll probably be the first to know what cars are on their way. That is unless someone has a better view than I do :) It really was exciting to see those CP locos pushing our new subway cars :)
I'll be setting my alarm for 5:00am tomorrow, we'll see if CP is following the same schedule as Monday.
Shawn
Me thinks that chances are unlikely that you'll see any more cars this week. The pattern that's been followed is 5 cars are delivered from Bombardier every week. Things do change though, and you can give it a crack and see if something pleasant comes your way.... I would look to next Monday as being the day for another 142 to make an appearance....
-Stef
Wouldn't it take 2 years at that rate to deliver the entire order of R142's?
680 cars / 5 cars per week / 52 weeks per year = 2.6 years :)
They have to move them faster if they're ever going to be put in service at a reasonable rate.
Is the testing over on the R142's yet? When are they finally planning to start putting in what R142's they have already into service?
Another question is, has Bombardier cranked out all 680 cars yet. The order was placed what, 3 years ago, I think. I would think that Bombardier would want to get them off their property as soon as possible :)
Shawn
It will probably be a year before all cars get here. To date: 6301-6325, 6331-45, and 6411-15 are on the property. That's 45 cars as of 11/27/00. They'll send more as time passes, but the complete delivery isn't going to be done overnight.
Testing for the 142s is essentially over. The TA gladly accepts new cars coming into the system. BUT there are bugs that still need to be worked out.
-Stef
Yup. I've crossed it when I walk between Astoria and Harlem. I even used it once for a walk from Woodside via Astoria and Harlem to Yankee Stadium, a 9-mile walk!
This sounds like some serious sidewalkfanning :)
Shawn
Sheesh, I feel as though I've walked nine miles by the time my annual trip to the city is over.:-)
My grandfather took some pics of the Triboro Bridge in 1936; I'll have to dig them out and see if I can spot a walkway.
There are definitely walkways on both sides of the Triboro Bridge. The question is, are they open? They ahve been (alternately?) closed in recent months due to construction, but the construction seems to be done. That should mean that both walways are now open, but it doesn't prove that they are.
Anyone know for sure if the Triboro Bidge east walkway is now open? That would be the place to get the best view of the Hell Gate Bridge. If it's not, the Astoria Blvd. station on the N line also gives a decent view, though not as close up. And of course the Hell Gate Bridge approach passes right over the Ditmars Blvd. station on the N.
You know anybody who works for the New York Connecting Railway? Or Canadian Pacific? Those are two ways that would help out in this area.
BMTman
The best spot would be on the south side of the platform at the Ditmars Blvd. station on the N line.
you can go on the walkway of the triboro bridge, or go to Northern Blvd. and Broadway in Queens where its an even way better shot than the hells gate for the over pass is lower to the street.
I took a ride to University Park Terminal on the Metra Electric Line today and was surprised that the station is in the middle of nowhere.
I had only rode as far as 115th/Kensington before, but had no afternoon classes today and surprisingly no work, so I decided to take a transit trip.
The Electric line is always fun and I hadn't ridden it in a while.
The Hourly service to UP & the fact it only takes an hour one way is cool.
Anyway, the train literally stop in the middle of some fields next to Crawford Road for the University Park Station. All that is around the station is fields & large parking lots.
Does University Park have a downtown area & why does the Electric Line not go to it??
This is the first community in Will County Next to Cook and isn't that far from Chicago!! I didn't think it would be quite that rural. Zone G on the BNSF is Route 59 Naperville/Aurora & an extremly crowded area!
BJ
University Park (originally Park Forest South) is a Sixties-vintage dormitory suburb which never had a downtown. I imagine the station was placed where it is precisely because the area adjacent to the rail line was undeveloped, providing relatively cheap land for parking lot construction.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
How can you find out when the New York and Atlantic is moving some frieght on the LIRR Montauk Branch in Forest Hills/ Middle Village, Queens? I would relish an opportunity to videotape some action. I also rode up to Dover, NJ on the old Erie route, now NJT. Great scenery.
I just found this page. It's a virtual tour of the NY&A Bay Ridge Branch. It looks pretty neat so far.
http://www.oldnyc.com/bayridge/contents/bayridge.html
Shawn
AirTran is destined to fail, we all know this. But what I fail to understand, is why the PA did not utilize the area of abandoned LIRR track that stretches from Rockaway Blvd in Ozone Park, to the LIRR main line in Forest Hills. This way, you can run the AirTran directly to midtown Manhattan without tranfering in Jamaica.
For those of you who are not familiar with this stretch of abandoned track, it basically runs parallel to Woodhaven Blvd from Rockaway Blvd, to Yellowstone Blvd, where Yellowstone meets the LIRR main line to midtown.
Does anyone know more about this unutilized piece of railroad property, and why it was abandoned?
While I am sure that a one-seat ride to the airport would have been considerably more desirable than the current plan, AirTrain is by no means doomed to fail. I think that if the Airtrain ride is priced competitively, it'll easily beat the bus or cab in efficiency and popularity. If failure were as obvious as you seem to think, I doubt that the PA would have made such a significant investment in the project.
As for the old Right-of-Way you refer to, it is not unused in one sense. People have gradually extended their backyards into the land still owned by the MTA. The ROW begisa at the WhitePot underjump and extends into the Rockaways. The TA's Rockaway branch operates over the southern portion of the ROW.
As to why this route was not used for the AirTrain, to over-simplify it. The airport is owned by the PA and the ROW is owned by the MTA. The mayor wants to take over the airport - and the PA doesn't want to give up control. The PA did not want the MTA to build and operate mass transit in te airport and the MTA did not want to give up its ROW to the PA.
As to why this route was not used for the AirTrain, to over-simplify it. The airport is owned by the PA and the ROW is owned by the MTA. The mayor wants to take over the airport - and the PA doesn't want to give up control. The PA did not want the MTA to build and operate mass transit in te airport and the MTA did not want to give up its ROW to the PA.
Also, even the low-volume talk about using that ROW coming from transit advocates was enough to cause NIMBYs along the ROW to loudly oppose the PA even considering the idea.
It is a shame that the residents along the ROW have always opposed reuse of this line.
20 years ago, when I played Little League right next to ROW(at RGMMVLL field, under Woodhaven Blvd overpass) the ROW was a very popular hangout for teens, into drugs, and whatever else. I think it would be better for the communities along the ROW to have active trains, than a wooded hang out area in their backyards.
My only problem with this modern version of "The Train to the Plane", is that I don't see people using it the way the PA is projecting.
Imagine yourself as a business man, with a room booked at the Marriot Marquis on Bdwy and 45th. You get off your plane, take a train to Jamaica, transfer at Jamaica, take LIRR to Penn, then take a cab or a subway from there to the hotel. Or, you can walk from Penn to the Marriot.
Don't you people think that someone spending $200+ a night on a hotel, would rather spend $35 on a cab, than go through the scenario presented above. Besides, when you add the cost of the shuttle train to Jamaica, LIRR to Penn, and cab fare plus tip to a hotel, what did you really save in terms of dollars?
Now imagine a family of four going through the scenario above. People will just take a cab from JFK right to their destination,not have to go to the shuttle train, to LIRR, to a cab from Penn Station to their hotel.
The problem with the Train to the Plane was that transfer to the bus **AND** the slow crawl though airport traffic to and threw each terminal. Airtran will directly link the terminals and get rid of the bus system. Riding between terminals (Projected 8 min total round trip) will be FREE and PA says something like 20,000 people will do that. I don't trust that figure or how many people transfer between terminals now even with TWA and American consolidating into one terminal operation (used to have two each).
I don't think the PA is expecting AirTrain to attract all the businessmen from their cabs and limos. Rather, it is meant to supplement these services with an alternative for the more casual traveler and airport employees. There have been numerous articles recently about LaGuardia Aiport operating at capacity or over. Most of us have experienced delays there. I, for one, look forward to the AirTrain because it will open up JFK as an option for me, whereas now, with the current transportation methods, it's too complicated to get to/from, so I don't use it. Ever. It's even easier to get to Newark Airport, and it will get easier once the monorail/NEC connection is finished. A short LIRR trip to Jamaica to catch the AirTrain would make JFK equally as attractive, for me at least.
I'm wondering does the PA own LGA also. Will there be any similar plans to link LGA with ... perhaps Ditmars in the same way as JFK is to Jamaica? And an added provision in the future to be able to convert it to NYCTA trackage and link it physically with the N? Or am I dreaming?
The Port Autority of New York and NJ operates (not owns) the following:
JFK Airport JFK
Newark Airport EWR
LaGuardia Airport LGA
Teterboro Airport TEB (Operated by lease by Johonson Controls)
The Heliport DMH (Downtown Heliport)
Holland Tunnel
Lincoln Tunnel
George Washington Bridge
Bayonne Bridge
Goethels Bridge
Outerbridge Crossing
Port Autority Bus Terminal
GW Bridge Bus Station
World Trade Center
PATH (Port Authority Trans Hudson RR)
They also own The Teleport communications center on Staten Island. And they own the Yonkers Industrial Complex, home of the Kawasaki plant that's bringing us the R-142A.
I thought they sold off the Yonkers complex several years ago...? It doesn't show up on the PA website anywhere.
And here is a list of Ports Operated by the PA
Port Newark
Port Elizabeth (Elizabeth Port Authority Marine Terminal)
Howland Hook Marine Terminal
Auto Marine Terminal (next to the Military Ocean Terminal)
Red Hook Container Terminal
Brooklyn Marine Terminal (Brooklyn Piers)
Thanks for the lists!
All basicly true. I would point out that the PA only has a lease on JFK. NYC owns it has has been making noises about evicting the PA.
>>>NYC owns it has has been making noises about evicting the PA. <<<
Rudy is the only one making noises, he's always had a hard-on for the Port Authority. Regardless of what he thinks he is not NYC. When he goes the noise will go.
Peace,
ANDEE
For more detail on the pros & cons of this search this site by key word as we have talked & talked about this subject.
Mr t__:^)
AirTran is destined to fail
Why? I know it's the successor to Valujet, but they've cleaned up their act and they offer affordable flights.
Oh, you're talking about AirTRAIN
DISCLAIMER: I'm not making fun of this person's spelling as I'm known to do, I do not mean this as a spelling correction.
Switch seems to be the cause,
DEKALB DERAIL
Peace,
ANDEE
Fare hikes not expected,
STAYS THE SAME
Peace,
ANDEE
By the time they finally hike the fare, it will probably be to $2.
I for one would like to see the fare rise, with reinvestment in the system. If labor costs go up and the fare does not, deferred maintenance is right around the corner. If state money is available to prevent an increase, it should be used for the improvments we all talk about instead.
Come on Larry, you know how it works. If the TA shows an
operating surplus, it gets rewarded by having its funding
cut. It NEVER gets re-invested. It's ironic. During these
boom years of high ridership it would have been advantageous to
extract as high a fare as the market would bear. Now the most
likely time for a hike is January 2002 just when we'll most likely
be in the mid point of a recession.
I thought it was the improved fare structure that came with Metrocard that made for the ridership increase in the first place
I thought it was the improved fare structure that came with Metrocard that made for the ridership increase in the first place.
Just got a post card in the mail saying that the next show is Dec 9th
at Soldiers & Sailors Club 283 Lex Ave (36/37).
Admission $2, plus $15 (I think) for a table.
Haven't attended one in a while, may go this time.
As most of you know I love to trade & the show has turned into a buy/sell thing that isn't as much FUN for me, but if I'm going to obtain some of the hard to get cards, that's the place.
Mr t__:^)
Washington Post article on smooth ATO operation.
It might be smooth but its SLOW! I took Rorh 1208 from Friendship Heights to Grosvenor this morning. With manual, we would have been topping out at speeds of 55-70 MPH, today it was about 45 MPH. It might be smoother, but its slower. If you want a 75 MPH run in DC in the near future, you better get A LOT of luck.
They couldn't figure out what was wrong with four relays, so they just replaced all of them??? Someone needs to re-learn their problem solving skills. What a waste of money.
I think there were other minor problems. Also, it meant 20 months of excellent railfanning. Sometimes, the stupidity of a transit authority can be a good thing.
Also, another thing is that if they never ID'ed the problem, there is no telling if the problem was solved with the new relays. They may have a 40 year warranty, but if they fail again, the trains will be back in manual mode again.
i have learned from very disturbed sauces that the mta car procurement department has taken to heart the lessons learned from the whole process of the r110/r142 car order...
as a result, they will begin planning for the replacement of the r142 cars on december 1, 2000, hoping that if the planning process is started on friday, the new order of cars will be ready for service sometime between 2035 and 2040...
heypaul, welcome back, I see rumours of your death were greatly exaggerated..
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey Andee, I've also heard rumors that Paul's life is greatly exaggerated...;-)
BMTman
I heard Demolition lost the tag titles.
[i have learned from very disturbed sauces...]
heypaul, can you confirm whether or not the disturbed sauces was either clam, meat or tomato?
Just trying to get to the bottom of this...
BMTman
I was beginning to suspect "the secret sauce"
I wish TA much luck with
color-coordination...
...they were REALLY off the perch
this time.
Red, Red Wine.
Hello, again. When the"M" is required to deadhead to Marcy to relay, are there any crews added to compensate for the increased cycle(turnaround)time?
The M only relays at Marcy Av. during G.O.'s which require the use of the middle track by the J line.
When the GO is in effect, there are two extra crews on each shift that are required to meet service demands. On the PM shift, one starts around 215 pm and the other starts around 845 pm.
While riding a Queensbound number 7 train last night around 10pm, I noticed that HUGE grafitti covered the walls of Hunters Point Ave. Station on the Queensbound side. The vandals missed almost no portion of wall, even sullying the mosaics, and it was in the "Brooklyn bubble" style (see recent post with Village Voice article on "writers"). Not very "artisitic" -- looked like a rather hasty bombing run. Had time enough to cover a lot of tile, which makes me wonder whether no trains were running at the time of the crime. Wonder how long it will stay. I know of the ZERO-tolerance policy for the subway cars themselves. Not sure if it applies to the stations. Seems like a massive clean-up job for somebody.
Sounds like a 12-11 to me....
If only a T/O or C/O or station agent had seen it, to call it in.
>>>..."Brooklyn bubble" style (see recent post with Village Voice article on "writers"). <<<
The article stated that those styles can be from anywhere now..
FROM ARTICLE:
...He's right, in a way. Graffiti has lost its respect for beauty and ritual. Gone is the code of borough consciousness that gave the world Bronx Bubble Style as well as the loopy Brooklyn look. Platform Style (easily mistaken for Arabic) signified Manhattanand nothing stood for Staten Island. These days, one's borough is more or less beside the point.<<<
Peace,
ANDEE
Just trying to provide a visual. Obviously, I didn't remember the article exactly. Thanks for the clarification.
It is awful and I hope they catch the SOB's
Peace,
ANDEE
why did they not hit the chambers station on the jmz?? any graffitti & improvement there would be a blessing !! especially on those unused abandoned sides!! by the way, this is not the go signal for graffitti / scratchiti.
just a comment for the sake of saying something like everybody else!!
Those graffiti at the Hunters Point station is so despicable. It's NOWHERE NEAR ART. They're just big hollow bubble-like letters/arabic strewn aimlessly all over the walls & the ads on them.
"why did they not hit the chambers station on the jmz?? any graffitti & improvement there would be a blessing !! especially on those unused abandoned sides!! by the way, this is not the go signal for graffitti / scratchiti."
I don't think such an idea would be a blessing. And the unused "abandoned" sides should be among the last place to even be considered since it is like a "modern ruin". To me your statements only provide potential graffiti artists with fresh new ideas. Your encouragement of graffiti makes me feel sick to my stomach. I totally disagree with your posting -100%.
well i tell you what mr 100% in which is fine with me!! all i was saying ( & just to be saying it ) was IF the graffiti was sprayed at the chanbers station at the JMZ it could not make it look any worse!!
@ remember this both was and is not a go signal for grafitti etc...
the main point is that the chanbers JMZ station looks so bad any new attention paid to it could not be all bad. at least a water hose could have been unsed to wash off the silt on the abandoned sides of many stations etc.. maybe even the subway museum could have had one professionaly painted ""graffitti subway car". got to learn how to html red letters inside the message post area! question, can i do that with a i mac?
To do the red letters the coding would be this (minus the spaces)
< f o n t c o l o r = " f f 0 0 0 0 " > insert text here < / f o n t >
those "0s" are zeros, not Os. Do that and you'll have RED TEXT
Do that and you'll have insert text here
I think most other people from this board knew what I meant. And meanwhile Salaam is supposed to be the unintelligent one? riiiiiiiiiiiiiight
* what kind of bullshit was your post supposed to mean? riiiiiiiiiiiight??!!!!!
To simplify it for you, Salaam, he was saying that you are supposed to be the least intelligent one on the site. However, the question made him think that you might not be the dumbest. Got it?
* your song is playing & for you " the freaks come out at night"
I'm not sure what you mean, Salaam. If you figure it out, please let me know.
Basically Salaam, I was referring to the fact that most on this board refer to you as being unintelligent. I do not agree with them. I was referring to their esteem of you, and then poking fun at chuchubob for not knowing what i meant. I did not imply that you are unintelligent, rather that the rest of the people on this board think that and that they are wrong.
* there is no need for this b.s. & i did not even bother to read it.... if you were not such a little spoiled brat & a little baby boy you would not post what you did before this post??
i know children more mature that SOME of you folk on this forum!!
please grow up little immature boy !!
"Hey now, you're a rock star!!"
Smash Mouth!
i did not meet any of the little baby boys on this forum lasty time i was there in nyc! thank goodness the subtalkers i did meet were mature adults & every converstation was ( on topic ). we talked about the subway system lines , equipment time of shooting videos etc.
i even toured the coney island yards met mark w & mike hannah & SOUTH FERRY -( scrap the r-142s )american redbirds etc!! met a yard worker who talked me to death & showed me where the best steak sandwich is etc.. i was so happy i did not run into any mean spirited childlike immature little boys ( some of the type who post on this forum )
especially weak assed cowards who hide behind thier computers & post the worst messages on subtalk !! this post is on topic is yours folks??
Well Abe, don't say I didn't warn you (long ago). God I love it when I'm proven to be right. Thank you Salaam - you are the Village Idiot.
I for one will never insult Salaam on this board. But after this last round I may just have to give up on ever sticking up for him with anything if I'm going to get flamed for it.
If indeed the "Spunky and Salaam vs. the world" days are over and I am joining the other side, hey at least I got a cooler handle out of it...
- Spunky of Light Rail Fame
That's the best attitude toward Salaam.
Just let him act the way he acts, and don't let it bother you, and don't respond to him.
now all hell has broken loose!! its like a bunch of K thru 1st graders fighting inside a sandbox finally the first grade teacher has to break up all of the brats fighting each other..
that is what this series of threads looks like to me, with one question to this ENTIRE board..what in the hell does this have to do with rail transit systems worldwide & how did this become so far off topic?? was this message & discusssion board supposed to be about not just the new york subway but all rail transportation systems??
hopefully the first grade teacher will remove the trouble makers!!
@ now can we all just settle down & return to a mature informative but an on topic discussion please? i am not interested in playing inside any sandboxes with a bunch of spoiled BRAT kids !!!!!!
I would like to ask more about the LIRR & metro north railroad what kind of stock is used to go outside of new york state etc..
also i like to take some swipes at amtraks cross country services like the lake shore limited & the southwest chief if you have experenced this etc. catch my drift folks?? on topic.........thank you !!
i did not have time to spell check but you understood what i said right???????...
There you go again, salaam - hiding behind the
Well, there you go again, salaam - hiding behind the red herring of the "off topic" post . You post a message that, by your own admission, you posted not because you had anything relavent to say, but just for the sake of saying something. Some here criticized you for that and questioned your intelligence. Others here rushed to your defense and you promptly flame them. You are the true VILLAGE IDIOT. You repeatedly act like a complete moron and then you question our intelligence? Warning - do not try to compete with anyone here on the battle field of intelligence. You'll lose. My advice to you, mr. salaam, is stand up! Stand errect and lift up your knuckles from the pavement!
Train Dude:
I heard that you and Hillary are collaborating on a biography: "It Takes a Village Idiot". :)
Not suprisingly, I thought of the 'Hillary' book when I decided to give salaam LaLa his nickname. I couldn't work a satisfactory pun of the title.
nice!!!
question to all of you village idiots who post these b.s. threads ...
what does your post(S) have anything to do with rail transportation systems worldwide in which is the SOLE purpose of this message forum!!
answer that in the form below!
your answer is ................. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________??.....!!!..h
Why is it as soon as popular opinion begins to realize what you are, you don't want to take your toys and go home?
Remember, you started this by asking how you can post text in RED.
Tell me, what did THAT post have to do "with rail transportation systems worldwide in which is the SOLE purpose of this message forum!!"
Which has been repeatedly not enforced so long as the topics weren't inciting riots.
Guess who incites the most riots on this board if Hillary Clinton isn't being discussed?
Oh, and who made you the STPD?
-Hank
I hope you're not waiting for a response from salaami LaLa. Right now he's trying to get someone to translate the question so he can understand it. Too bad you can't draw pictures for him.
I hope you're not waiting for a response from salaami LaLa. Right now he's trying to get someone to translate the question so he can understand it. Too bad you can't draw pictures for him.
two post from the main two village idiots all off topic & nothing of any substance to offer!just personal attacks insults harrasing posts!
it is only about 4 of you who fit this bill....
Come on Train Dude. Personal attacks that flame to that extent are just plain wrong okay? Comparatively a lot more wrong then calling people "little baby boys."
thank you sir now lets go back to on topic subjects!!thankz!!
* there is no need for this b.s. & i did not even bother to read it.... if you were not such a little spoiled brat & a little baby boy you would not post what you did before this post??
i know children more mature that SOME of you folk on this forum!!
please grow up little immature boy !!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What can I say? What I thought was a glimmer of intelligence must have been the reflection of headlights in a young deer's eyes.
please name where your post was on topic about anything ??
I will when you tell everyone where yours was regarding HTML codes for red text - you knuckle-dragging halfwit.
your post was really on topic!! says everything about you!!!
your posts describe you well !!!
A salaam, I forgot that when it comes to wit, you have 1/2 !!!
When you were in NYC, what B division lines did you ride and how did they compare to the A division?
TOUCHE
...AND the silence was defeaning...where are u wahid?
You know I think it would be more fun for me if I just watched this with amusement instead of taking sides. I think that's what I shall do.
And yes, this is an off-topic post but the one after it is on-topic, just to satisfy everyone ;)
If anyone has been reading the news regarding light rail on this coast (which i'm sure they haven't), they've heard about the latest with SoundTransit.
The LOWEST bid for the downtown-UW tunnel came in 224 million over budget (it's a tunnel of course it costs a lot) but ST doesn't have that kind of leeway. This gave the rail-bashers yet another oppurtunity to cry for either more roads or more buses and making the buses free. The head of the light rail board has resigned and has been replaced by the guy who headed Portland's Westside MAX from 1990 through 1998.
If anyone has been reading the news regarding light rail on this coast (which i'm sure they haven't), they've heard about the latest with SoundTransit.
The LOWEST bid for the downtown-UW tunnel came in 224 million over budget (it's a tunnel of course it costs a lot) but ST doesn't have that kind of leeway. This gave the rail-bashers yet another oppurtunity to cry for either more roads or more buses and making the buses free. The head of the light rail board has resigned and has been replaced by the guy who headed Portland's Westside MAX from 1990 through 1998.
The monorail initiative passed - AGAIN. For the second time the citizens of the city of Seattle have told the government they want a monorail. Only the city took the initiative seriously this time and have given 6 million to the Elevated Transit Council (created by the 1998 initiative) to study monorail lines. The 1998 initiative had an X-shaped plan of four lines (click here for map) but the 2000 initiative doesn't specify any. This leaves room for coordinating with SoundTransit's light rail.
If it was up to me, I'd scrap the LINK's Capitol Hill alignment and serve that with a monorail. The UW-Lake City Way line and the SE line south of the Rainier and MLK station are redunant with LINK but the rest may very well fly. Who knows, in 10-15 years Seattle may have the largest operating monorail system in the world.....
-Spunky
Why a monorail? Would this connect to the two station monorail Seattle already has? That existing monorail was for the World's Fair, right? Are there any other monorails Seattle has I am not aware of? Any monorail in service anywhere always seems to be for novelity, like Disney World and the Seattle one. There was a thread eons ago that talked about this. A monorail would require all specially made parts that would make it really expensive. They should consider using light rail and connect it to the existing system. Making a whole seperate monorail network would be like starting all over again.
Kuala Lumpur uses a monorail system.
Jacksonville florida has a monorail.
Trouble is it doesn't go anywhere. An acquaintance of mine from high school, Rosalind Chou, helped design it. But until it expands, it'll be little more useful than a downtown tourist trolley loop. Still, the idea of mass transit in sprawling Florida is intriguing.
No, it's not a monrail check out Adtranz They refer to it as light rail, and if you enlarge the picture, you can tell there are two tracks. However they do not not like standard tracks, but nevertheless, it's not monorail. While I do not know all the monorails of the US, my point is that many aren't big enough for there to be serious ridership, so they are just for display of high-tech-ness.
The Seattle monorail, if and when its built, would not be a display-ish monorail but rather a real transit link integrated into the rest of the system. It is likely that there will be two routes through downtown, one of which will be on 5th Ave and thus connect and use the existing two-station Worlds' Fair monorail. You asked, "why not light rail?" Perhaps you haven't been to Seattle lately. The citizens of the entire puget sound area have been conditioned against the word light rail. SoundTransit's controversial LINK (from SeaTac to Northgate) keeps getting more expensive and no progress is being made. The vast majority of people in the Puget Sound area deride light rail as politics, and not a serious solution to traffic problems. The road people want more roads, anbd the transit people keep saying how the money would be better spent on improved bus service. Meanwhile, the lowest estimate for the central LINK lightr ail now puts it at abtou $115 million per mile. This is fast becoming the most expensive light rail project ever built and it's likely that it will have to be shortened or realigned in order for SoundTransit to have the money for light rail. That aside....
Any new monorail construction probably would have some custom-building involved. I would not be suprised if Alweg was the contractor, also. But the chances are that new monorails would actually be cheaper than light rail - not light rail in general, but cheaper than Seattle's 115+/mile system which is all the residents of this area know. The major advantage monorail has over the other modes is that most people have ridden the Seattle Center (worlds' fair) monorail and like it. Everything thinks monorails are cool - they have enormous public support because of it. So why do I think it's a good thing?
I've lived in Seattle for six years and in that time I've seen the first light rail initiative fail, the second one pass by a narrow margin and then be blasted from all sides. SoundTransit has been bogged down because a greater percentage of people are against light rail then are for it - and every neighborhood has gotten bad NIMBY syndrome. The Central LINK light rail will be built, but at the earliest it will be domne in t 2006-2007 and probalby not until later.
Monorail has an advantage - a huge advantage: At the moment, everyone likes it and wants it. The Elevated Transit Council (www.elevated.org) has two years to come up with a plan to give to the voters of Seattle. It would be a Seattle city project, not a King County Metro project. It would not fall prey to all the residents of the outer suburban and semirural areas blasting it. And everyone watns one. I say, get the monorail built before people change their minds.
After seeing five years of "MORE ROADS!" any guideway transit is a welcome change - whether or not it's my favorite mode (light rail) or not.
The Seattle monorail, if and when its built, would not be a display-ish monorail but rather a real transit link integrated into the rest of the system. It is likely that there will be two routes through downtown, one of which will be on 5th Ave and thus connect and use the existing two-station Worlds' Fair monorail. You asked, "why not light rail?" Perhaps you haven't been to Seattle lately. The citizens of the entire puget sound area have been conditioned against the word light rail. SoundTransit's controversial LINK (from SeaTac to Northgate) keeps getting more expensive and no progress is being made. The vast majority of people in the Puget Sound area deride light rail as politics, and not a serious solution to traffic problems. The road people want more roads, anbd the transit people keep saying how the money would be better spent on improved bus service. Meanwhile, the lowest estimate for the central LINK lightr ail now puts it at abtou $115 million per mile. This is fast becoming the most expensive light rail project ever built and it's likely that it will have to be shortened or realigned in order for SoundTransit to have the money for light rail. That aside....
Any new monorail construction probably would have some custom-building involved. I would not be suprised if Alweg was the contractor, also. But the chances are that new monorails would actually be cheaper than light rail - not light rail in general, but cheaper than Seattle's 115+/mile system which is all the residents of this area know. The major advantage monorail has over the other modes is that most people have ridden the Seattle Center (worlds' fair) monorail and like it. Everything thinks monorails are cool - they have enormous public support because of it. So why do I think it's a good thing?
I've lived in Seattle for six years and in that time I've seen the first light rail initiative fail, the second one pass by a narrow margin and then be blasted from all sides. SoundTransit has been bogged down because a greater percentage of people are against light rail then are for it - and every neighborhood has gotten bad NIMBY syndrome. The Central LINK light rail will be built, but at the earliest it will be domne in t 2006-2007 and probalby not until later.
Monorail has an advantage - a huge advantage: At the moment, everyone likes it and wants it. The Elevated Transit Council (www.elevated.org) has two years to come up with a plan to give to the voters of Seattle. It would be a Seattle city project, not a King County Metro project. It would not fall prey to all the residents of the outer suburban and semirural areas blasting it. And everyone watns one. I say, get the monorail built before people change their minds.
After seeing five years of "MORE ROADS!" any guideway transit is a welcome change - whether or not it's my favorite mode (light rail) or not.
Is there a REASON that you're purposely putting unclosed HTML at the end of your messages, thus screwing up the screens for the other 99 of us who read this board?
-Hank
To paraphrase that old ditty, "You take the high road and I'll take the low road, and I'll have more fun than you will.....".
Just to keep this about trains, I think I can remain on topic and when I do, my posts hopefully have some substance and insight. salaami, on the other hand, usually does not. Over the span of my memory, I can only think of four subjects that salaam has posted that were even vaguely on topic. They were:
1) The epic thread about railfan windows.
2) Strip searches in the Washington DC metro.
3)The LA transit strike and the racist motive of the politicians.
4) His video-taping adventures and his being harassed by racist LAPD and transit police who want to stifle his artistic endeavors.
While on topic, none of these threads offered anything in the way of legitimate information. They did offer lots of salaam's 'unusual slant' on things. Now I challange salaam to post something that's topical, meaningful and factual - with sources. Till then he'll remain salaam LALA the village idiot.
please seek profesional help you need it big time !!
It's Mr. Dude to you - Knuckle Dragger.
attacks insults thats all you ever have to offer!
It's Mr. Dude to you - Knuckle Dragger.
By the way - how is you post, in any way, to be considered "on topic"?
Question, when the motorman makes a hard stop, what part of your face hits the 'railfan' window first?
attacks & insults slander etc.. thats all you have to offer!!
train dude needs help professional help he is in trouble big time!
Salaam, can you recommend anyone. Bill Evanzz perhaps.
BTW salaami, how is your post, by any stretch of the imagination, to be considered on topic>
Today's 'on topic' question: Regarding urinating in the LA Metro - when you tinkle on the 3rd rail, do you get a little tingle or are those stories apocryphal?
TRAIN DUDE IS ***AWESOME***
attacks & insults thats all you have to offer !!
when i met you you were not like that & on the subway while i was videotaping!! why didnt you say that to my face ??
I NEVER met you, nor do I have any desire to, wahid.
Peace,
ANDEE
i met a man on a redbird who identified himself as "SUBWAYSURF" while i was minding my on business shooting video on a redbird either 5 pr the 2 this guy was wearing his religious suit & headgear!( of his faith ) will not go into that here please !!
he mr " SUBWAYSURF" approached me i did not know who he was & or is!!
he then clearly identified him self as ""SUBWAYSURF" !!!!!!!!!!!!
then told me to my face while i was shooting video he knew who i was!
now remember i never even seen this fellow before !! thats what i remember i do not shoot motormen & or people who ride subway trains!!
folks i do not lie about stuff like this !! will the real SUBWAYSURF please stand up or forever remain silent please !! ( thank you )
by the way my tape came out excellent in case you want to know that also!!
Salaam, given that you are prone to distorting facts in recounting events (such as the strip-search in the Washington,DC Metro), how are any of us to believe you about this happening - even if we could understand your English?
even if we could understand your English?
He doesn't speak English, remember that argument?
pigs i have left you alone as we agreed to do. stay out of this!!
Didn't you once say that you speak "American" and not English?
OH yes he did...that's what the man said, that's what he said....I have proff.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey, did it ever occur to you that either you aren't quite
remembering the handle of this guy you met on the train or
that said guy lied to you about his handle? Oddly enough there
are a lot of SubTalk patrons with the word "subway" in their
handle. I've met the real SUBWAYSURF in person and he doesn't
wear a "religious suit & headgear" as you put it.
Thanks Jeff,
Peace,
ANDEE
You hit it on the head - it was me he met. See my other posts in this thread for details.
subfan
Now that we've settled this ridiculous argument, can we now meander on to more meaningful topics----like WHEN THE HELL ARE WE GOING TO GET A NEW PRESIDENT?
hate to post again maybe i can answer... when hell freezes over ???
hell is not half full !!!!......( joke ) ..
Now that we've settled this ridiculous argument, can we now meander on to more meaningful topics----like WHEN THE HELL ARE WE GOING TO GET A NEW PRESIDENT?
Stop crying, and tell all of your Wrongpublican friends to do the same.
Bill Clinton will remain the President until noon on January 20, 2001 and until then, it doesn't matter how long this drags on, no matter who is declared the winner we will get a new president ON THAT DAY!
Even if we don't pick one and Dennis Hastert, Strom Thurmond or Lawrence Summers has to become the acting president.
when hell freezes over ?? it might happen...!!...???...........!
It is hard to contain anger when someone is lying about someone else.
So I decided to pull back before posting this with a clear mind.
There are only two scenarios here my friend.
1. This person who came up to you stating that he was Subwaysurf on "SUBTALK" has lied to you hense you are the victim here.
2. You are lying about the whole thing making it up and consequently pulling someone's credible name through the mud.
Those of us who have met "SUBWAYSURF" know that you are lying for one specific point you mentioned. Only you know who you met that day but as I've been reading for the past months on this board, you don't have many allies here so consequently I will follow my insinct and choose the latter of the two.
Good luck selling credibility here on this board.
Later "D U D E "!!!!
Peace Andee,
Marty.......
the fact of the matter is while i was shooting video on a redbird about one month ago while i was in NYC ,this subtalker named himself as "SUBWAYSURF" & told me he knew who i was. the rest i already posted
now those are the ""FACTS"" ...........D U D E !!!!!
ROTHFLMAO
Now I do of course, in light of the FACTS revealed here, expect a full apology for such things as accusing me of "hiding behind my key board and lying". But, I won't hold my breath, Wahid.
Peace,
ANDEE
Enough Already. Smoke the peace pipe and let's get on with it.
thats what i said ITS OVER CHILL OUT MOVE ON FORGET IT.... thank you ...... pass the pipe over to me so i can take a hit too !!!
( peace )
Hey Fred, why does salaami get a pass? He made a mistake! One of many, I might add but a mistake none the less. If he's a man, why can't he own up to his error. Why fred? Why does he need you to defend him, fred?
BALONEY to you..( i do not eat cold cuts they are not good for you )
& i dont eat any salami either you jerk !!!!cooked meals taste better.
by the way nut i did admit my mistake & posted on it nicely. but now,
you never make any mistakes because you are so 100% perfect & exact at all times arent you ??... when was the last time you ever admitted any mistake you ever made & name the time & place you did !!!
Salami is cooked, Salaam. And it's 99% beef product, usually kosher, and we can therfore split one.
-Hank
blah blah blah most cold cuts i see are made with ""pork the other white meat " except for the official KOSHER K U products.... now back to on topic subjects like kosher dogs at penn station in newark!!
Hey Hank, have you recovered from the Mets' pratfall in the World Series? I took it better than I thought I would. I guess being National League Champions is good enough this time around. Speaking of baseball, there is going to be the 50th Anniversary of the 1951 Baseball season next March 31- April 3 in New York. As soon as I get the particulars I'm making my reservations for my trip. I will make it in two days earlier so I can ride the entire subway system. That ought to make it one hell of a trip.
* it sure was nice videotaping the flushing # 7 on the outside doing high speed express runs passing by a brightly lit shea stadium with the paeking lots full seing willets point full of photographers transit police & finally riding the flushing line day & night watching this & yes i have at all on tape 2 two 5 hour videos a total of 10 hours total!! what a night to remember now i have it forever on video!
I certainly wish we could touch base and I could be able to see your work. Since you live in Pasadena and I in Arcadia it would be nice if you dropped me a line and we could meet up to see what I believe to me your great work.
sure no problem i go to the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEM often by the way i am listed in the pasadena white pages & my phone is listed. i have talked to railfans & motormen in other states & always the subjects stay on topic about how rail transit systems are operated etc..i communicate with others about pcc cars to you name it. i just got back from nyc last month shooting the #7 during the world series. here in the los angeles i am in touch with a blue line operator here in los angeles where we put my camera inside the motormands cab. finally i would like subtalk to have a lot of westcoasters posting on subtalk about rail transit subjects...cant wait to shoot metrolink !!!
my phone number is 626 794 -4503 again i go to the orange empire museum at least monthly !!
my phone number is 626 794 -4503 again i go to the orange empire museum at least monthly !!
now the thread is corectly posted ...
my phone number is 626 794 -4503 again i go to the orange empire museum at least monthly !!..go pe go !!
* it sure was nice videotaping the flushing # 7 on the outside doing high speed express runs passing by a brightly lit shea stadium with the paeking lots full seing willets point full of photographers ... transit police & finally riding the flushing line day & night watching this & yes i have at all on tape 2 two 5 hour videos a total of 10 hours total!! what a night to remember now i have it forever on video!
........
Also the 50th anniversary of the "shot heard 'round the (baseball) world".
now the thread is correct ......
Hey Fred, I will been working same business in DC, so don t forget me. Maybe I will Amrack up that weekend. E Mail me with more details.
Dude: I defend Salaam because there has been too much piling on, and who knows who is right on this matter anyway? It's one person's word against another, but more important I know of the guy who really took out after Salaam and he a no good jerk who I wouldn't trust with a bag of garbage. It's rare when you and I disagree, but this time, please take my word for it, there is more to this episode than meets the eye. Have a good week.
Fred, now that salaam has acknowledged that he made an honest mistake, I think we can safely put this matter to rest. I still say, however, that salaam gets more than his fair share of literary license in his recollection of facts.
oh get out of here !!
Why salaam, you managed to string five words together to form a sentence and only made 2 grammatical errors. All this from a man who's favorite is Shemp. Way to go!
....you would not trust him with a bag of garbage..???
man!!! you made my week !! thankz .....
Don't mention it. Now I hope we can all go on to bigger and better things. I can tell you this. If you were taking pictures of the subway and I happened to show up there would be no doubting in your mind who I was. Maybe we'll run into each other sometime. We are neighbors after all.
Yup, 2 Smog Valley Brothers
LOL!
Thanks Marty, I would have responded sooner but my religious garb was giving me a hard time, if you know what I mean.
Peace,
ANDEE
Based on Salaam's description of the person he met and what was discussed, it was almost definitely me - I wear a religious headcover, and approached Salaam when I saw him shooting out of a railfan window. It was not on a redbird, though; it was a southbound E train, the night before the 5th game of the world series. I remember this as he mentioned to me that he hoped that the series would last at least six games so that he could shoot a full Yankee stadium from a passing 4 train. The confusion is probably due to our similar "handles". Hope this clears it all up.
subfan
I love it! It all speaks for itself!
THANK YOU SUBFAN!
Peace,
ANDEE
Fine with me I do not mind if it was you all I remember was doing hard work with my shoes & feet almost in pain my legs strained & tired from standing & re-checking shooting railfan window videos etc...
Now the rest of the inflamitory personal attacks posts were all of them TOTALLY UNCALLED for not needed in this forum & off topic.
I do not care as long as this discussion remains ON TRACK & the discussion is about rail transportation systems worldwide etc.....
It is fine with me if subfan subwaysurf etc.... & i stand corrected but i did meet the man that says IT WAS ME !!
now folks can we please drop all of these threads & argue about redbirds museum trains runs light rail systems amtraks south shore linited services and all of your experences with all of these & please take me out of the post & subject areas except ON TOPIC messages about what this forum should be about ??????
& I THANK YOU .........!!!!!!!!!
No problem - I'm not trying to offend anyone; all I'm trying to do is clear up the misunderstanding about whether SubwaySurf was being truthful about never having met you. I beleive he was; the description of the encounter you had and the description of what the person you met looks like sounds like the encounter you had with me; the similarity of our "handles" can be confusing, especially when you hear it after a full day shooting videos :-). I am generally careful not to make inflamatory posts, and am not trying to make one here; if anything, I am acting as a "peacemaker" by pointing out that this was an honest misunderstanding; you had, in fact, had an encounter with a fellow poster, but it was _subfan_, not _SubwaySurf_.
I hope I didn't cause any more confusion.
subfan
when i met you, you were not like that & on the subway while i was videotaping!! why didnt you say that to my face ??
I have NEVER met you, Wahid. Nor, do I have any desire to.
Peace,
ANDEE
now you are going to tell the lie about how you met me on a redbird gave me advice on shooting the 4 & 6 identified yourself as subwaysurf
now you hide behind a computer screen & lie about this?? really !!
LOL
Describe this person to me. Height, weight, haircolor etc. What were they wearing? About how old?
Peace,
ANDEE
i was busy shooting on a redbird my main concern was to the running of my camera my sore wore out feet tired legs etc..
i only have a week or so to shoot redbirds etc...
i have no time for any foolishness of any kind whatsoever !! my wife was with me & she saw this as well now this white male about age 20-30 slender medium height wearing a black suit & tie dark hair cut short clean shaven etc. with a headpiece of his orthodox jewish fath etc.
i am sorry i dont have the corect spelling on that type of headpiece
i do own a muslim fez as with my religious faith.
i do not want this to go into any further discussion as to religion politics spiritual beliefs etc.
our conversation was brief as i do not like to do any talking while i am shooting video especially on a subway train while it is in motion & i want this video to be a permanent record as to the last of the redbirds railfan window shots in which all are dissapearing !!
the rest i did post as i saw & heard it i was very much involved in what i was doing he introduced himself i mostly nodded my & tried to distance myself away from the camera the rest i posted as i saw & heard it ( please excuse any errors thank you )
are you saying there is an imposter using your name in drag??
Salaam,
It was me you met (though I was not wearing a suit). It was on an R-32 E train headed to WTC. Your wife took some notes on my advice on shooting various lines.
subfan
ROTFL,
THANKS, SUBFAN.
Peace on you and your decendants,
ANDEE
No problem, though I'm not quite certain what religion uses the greeting you are using. The usual greeting in both Arabic and Hebrew translates as "may peace be with you" - no mention of decendants. I try to keep my religious affiliation/beliefs out of this forum, but felt compelled to come "out of the closet" in this case to identify myself. Please, though, are the comments about "having to go put on my religious garb" realy necessary? No offense intended, of course.
subfan
No, you are right. I was merely making light of the fact that I do not wear religious clothing and meant no offense to those that do. If you were offended, I apologize.
Peace,
ANDEE
No, you are right. I was merely making light of the fact that I do not wear religious clothing and meant no offense to those that do. If you were offended, I apologize.
Peace,
ANDEE
No offense taken, though your gracious (and immediate) appology are appreciated.
subfan
ok i messed up 2 ways it was not the # 2 redbird it was probably the ""E"" train & your name is SUBFAN not subwaysurf......!!
Hey folks when i make a mistake i am a man about it .. ok ??
( not like some other folks who are so dammed perfect here ) hint..
NOW WE HAVE GOT THIS STRAIGHT & IT IS OVER..... can we all agree to drop this let this go & move on to better on topic posts ??
thank you ......
So now the truth be known. To salaam lala - all subfans look alike.
TRAIN DUDE IS RIGHT.
Salaam,
I think you may be confusing me with Subwaysurf. I met you on a southbound E train at 53rd & Lex, rode with you until West 4th, and spoke with you about shooting the 4, the 6, and the A. I hope this clears up some confusion.
subfan
THANKS AGAIN, SUBFAN
Peace,
ANDEE
Where does Wahid come from?
first he lied about introducing himself on the redbird when i was shooting video last month. at least he did spell my muslim middle name correctly & he got only that part right. in arabic it means unique.
now lets go back to on topic subjects thank you !!
I'll give you some credit. Unique you are.
-Hank
ok holmes !!
Salaam: You've become an all right guy but there is one guy you have been trading barbs with that isn't worth your time. No, I don't mean Hank. I've had run-ins with this character and I don;t know where he gets off. He knows who he is and he ought to keep his stupid opinions to himself. Just work with those of us who appreciate your unique personality and this other character no mind whatsoever.
thank you sir maybe one day i will listen to you & get some sense!!
i admit when i am in error & i am not too proud to do so ...
you try to ignore bullies that try to shove who they deem a weak prey,
this person should know i am no pushover!! all i want to do is take transit photos & videos trade swap & even help others do the same.
thats my real goal in this why some ugly mean folks raise thier ugly heads up when they see this is beyond me. i love to share my photos & videos with fans of rail systems wherever i find folks who appreciate the same. thanks for your advice i hope i have enough sense to take heed to it !!
Salaam:
Since Fred stopped posting about the Mets and politics, you have posted more off-topic posts than anyone else. Most of them complain about off-topic posts or call people names.
While I was buying NJT tickets at Hamilton this morning, an Acela Express set went through westbound at 11:09. I subsequently rode the 1 from 34th to 50th. Going home, the NJT 5:32 Trenton Local left behind the 5:37 Long Beach, which had a medical incident that was dealt with in Elizabeth. We crawled behind it all the way to Rahway, then ambled the rest of the way, arriving in Hamilton 20 minutes late.
Regards,
Bob
He was being supportive of your "intelligence" and you raged against it. LOL!!!!!!!!!
NR
You post a reply to my message and said you "didn't read it" and then flame me when I was defending you.
Okay, basically what I was doing was (and i'll put this in bold)
DEFENDING your intelligence!
I try to point out that the same people who insult you are making mistakes themselves...okay I'm defending you. And you go and flame me. Wow that makes me feel special.
>>> I try to point out that the same people who insult you are making mistakes themselves...okay I'm defending you. And you go and flame me <<<
You did not expect an apology did you? After all, you supported those racist Gestapo police in D.C. who brutally beat and strip searched that innocent little minority girl in front of everyone in the middle of the subway platform and planted dope on her!! (I can't tell you where I learned those facts but I'm sure they are true) just because it was not your daughter!! :-^)
Tom
I knew what you meant, Spunky. It was a little light-hearted benign humor which you obviously didn't get. Why don't you lighten up?
I realized you were joking, I just wanted to get a pro-salaam thing out of it. Instead he flames me for defending him.
Wow.
After reading his reply to your post (typicaly of him, he assaults his defenders), why bother?
You'd have better luck with a hamster.
-Hank
Train Dude, Hank Eiseinstein and a couple of other Subtakers who are noted for their intelligence are constantly being insulted by this character. Salaam called me an IDODIT (his Spelling) once and I AM PROUD, If Salaam calls you names, you're doing something right.
you are so proud to be a little baby boy !!
Wahhhhh,Wahhhhh I want my Ba-Ba But Salaam, chill out, You have been hard at work recording history and making contributions to the hobby, Ignore the critics. be peaceful and let your video do the talking for you. As for learning HTML, play around with a web editor offline until you get it right, then try posting with your new skill. trial and error coupled with persistence will bring success and will gain you respect. As for Political issues, a post or two stating your opinion is probably OK but 15 or 20 causes peole to lose respect for your position.
mr blair thank you very much.. these little baby boys sometimes get to your last nerve (s).... ( you know how children are )
as for the html once upon a time i barely knew how to answer e mail now i post my transit photography on yahoo photos so sooner & or later this html stuff on an old i mac will come around for me & i will have this stuff wipped !! thankz !!
He called me "mr 100%"...
And we know what bob meant as well. The last go-round at explaining simple HTML to Salaam resulted in hm cutting and pasting the the demonstrative text, and thus he would follow your instructions literally, and type in 'your text here'.
-Hank
A number of people on this board tried to instruct him in simple HTML some time ago and failed.
A number of people on this board tried to instruct him in simple HTML some time ago and ... failed.
the rest of the posts after this one was totally uncalled for...the information as to the html posting yes....the bullshit no !
riiiiiiiight!!!!
Salaam:
Try this:
<font color=ff0000>red words here</font color=ff0000>
This is what the result should look like:
red words here
Always click Preview to see if it worked before you post.
Bob
<font color="ff0000">red words here red color.. words here & also the rest of my post as well ( oh well nice try)
second line some of the words dissapeared as i expected oh well i couldnt even post a picture on yahoo photos somehow i got around to whipping this b.s. one day & downloaded some pictures as well...
what i will do is ""bookmark"" this post & try out this again thank you ... but the commas on my i mac key look like this ...."""" and not ,, up high ..
i am somewhat new as to how computers see different colors on my yahoo clubs etc custom made colors etc.. somewhat a good score there
did make a good effort of making some words dissapear etc.. however...
my old i mac is somewhat limited but does some tasks well will give it another try tomorrow soon i will have this whipped & the cat in the bag... thankz..
OK, he couldn't get the red text, but he got > and <?
-Hank
Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.
Until I looked at the HTML source.
It looks like his browser interpreted it correctly and mine didn't. Folks, don't forget the semicolons after your entities. If you want <, include <, not <. I'm not sure offhand what the proper browser behavior is without the semicolon, but at best it depends on context. Salaam's browser showed < literally, so he typed it literally.
So -- Salaam -- try this:
<font color="ff0000">red words here</font>
That should yield this:
red words here
And rather than trying to type each character, highlight it, copy, and paste it into your message. Then replace 'red words here' with your text.
Good luck!!!!????
This worked when I previewed it at home last night, but on the computer at work I see that it changed.
Chuchubob, you are needlessly using HTML where you don't need to.
You stick the font tag in with the color but you don't need to put /font color="ff0000" afterwards, just /font. You don't put the color tags in the end font key. If you don't think this works check out my most recently updated website (off-topic) and see /font tags in all their glory
I tried it your way first and it didn't work.
I opened your "most recently updated website" and now a coworker is all hot and bothered.
I think he meant it as a joke, he said at the end, "by the way, this is not the go signal for graffitti / scratchiti.
just a comment for the sake of saying something like everybody else!!" He's not advocating graffiti.
I think the best way not to advocate graffiti is to not even mention the idea of spray-painting anything public transit... if I wasn't thinking about that and if I like to do graffiti, now I have something new I could try.
Shame on PATH or Port Authority..
Their internet map at the PATH site does not even note HBLR at Exchange Place, forget about Paviona/Newport....
Shame Shame
It's not surprising. It's not like you see connecting bus services on the map either. (I didn't check but I'm guessing the map on the web site is the same as on the trains, brochures, and station platforms). Besides, the PA and NJT are "competing" agencies in some respects. Plus, the HBLR is just bringing extra traffic to the PATH. I guess they figure most people making the transfer know where they're going.
On the internet verison you can click on a station and it lists connecting services. http://www.panynj.gov/path/pathmaplinks2.html
Here is what is said for Excahnge place when you click on the station a pop up window with a street map
LOCATION
Foot of Montgomery Street at Hudson River in Jersey City. Zip 07302
(A nearby street address would be 10 Exchange Place, the Exchange Place Center, located right outside PATH's Exchange Place Station).)
CONNECTIONS
Served by Newark-World Trade Center and Journal Square-33rd Street lines. Connect with NJ Transit and private bus lines
Well that sounds reasonably non-specific. It does say to connect with NJ Transit after all. I'm sure the PA web site has more egregious omissions that we could be pointing out.
p.s. did you mail them? no sense complaining about it here if you don't tell them too...
Gee Dave you mean this site is not related to the MTA? NJT? PA??
I didn't know that...
Yup I did, another voice in the wind if ya ask me though.
I know that you and most of the people who post to Subtalk know there's no official ties here. But you probably have no idea how much email I get complaining about this or that on the subway. Even people using the feedback form, which has a big glaring "not affilliated" banner-- they don't even notice it. So occasionally I think a general reminder is necessary, that is, if you feel that something is important enough to complain about *here* then you should also be sure to tell the people who are responsible for it directly. Don't expect that anyone official is reading this and will do anything about it, and I don't forward emailed complaints to anyone.
I know that you and most of the people who post to Subtalk know there's no official ties here. But you probably have no idea how much email I get complaining about this or that on the subway. Even people using the feedback form, which has a big glaring "not affilliated" banner-- they don't even notice it. So occasionally I think a general reminder is necessary, that is, if you feel that something is important enough to complain about *here* then you should also be sure to tell the people who are responsible for it directly. Don't expect that anyone official is reading this and will do anything about it, and I don't forward emailed complaints to anyone.
Of course, if someone does send a complaint to an official site, be it MTA, Port Authority, NJTransit, etc., nothing happens.
Hey, they're the govt. Why should they listen to us?
Well, they did come out with a new PATH map (Oct 29th) that is the same as the old one inside, except for a little line "Hudson-Bergen Light Rail" and "(currently operating)". North of Newport it's a dotted line to Hoboken.
BTW, the cover has a car photo & a piece of the map in the background with that little line running thru Exchange Place.
Mr t__:^)
The new, revised HBLR map in each car shows the extension in full service to Newport, but has no PATH logo at that stop. It does, however show the PATH logo at the original northern terminal, Exchange Place.
Looks like they forgot to stick the PATH logo on the maps.
PATH and NJT may be rivals, but NJT's commuter rail service does rely on PATH connections at Hoboken very heavily. Similarly, the HBLR would have even less ridership without its PATH connections.
Now with the line extended to Newport, there may be heavier HBLR-only ridership thanks to people living in Bayonne and southwest Jersey City who shop or work at the mall. Other than that, a very large percentage of HBLR riders probably change to PATH.
I'm wondering will the 63rd Street Connector open along with the Manhattan Bridge switching sides in 2001? Will it happen together? What are the service plans for these changes? If the 63rd Street Connection opens first, will they wait until the Manhattan Bridge switches sides to print new subway maps?
What are the service plans as of November 2000?
AAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
Read the Faq, read more of the posts, and read the archives....this site is much more than just the message boards!
-Hank
Eves & weekend F service may run via 63rd starting in January 2001. Regular service via 63rd may start in August/Sept 2001.
About the maps,... I would find it unthinkable for MTA to try to confuse riders with inaccurate maps.
They won't try to but will probably succeed anyway.
They were quite successful in the 1970's.
I just read off of ABC news that Amtrak has used funds siezed in drug raids to lease a helicopter which will carry Amtrak police in patrols over the NEC. They plan to use it aboot 80 hours per month and it will be equipped w/ cameras, night vision and infra-red. They will be going after fishermen, teenagers and other railroad interloapers.
"Using night vision, video and photographic gear, the aircraft also will hunt for people who snipe at passing trains with guns and those who intentionally place obstacles on tracks to cause delays or derailments."
All this comes as the 150 mph service is about to start up and they don't want anything to go wrong. The Chopper will be based in Phidalphia.
"In October, the Metropolitan Police Department announced an agreement with Amtrak police that expanded the authority of the railroad officers in the neighborhood around Union Station on Capitol Hill. The pact, similar to one between Amtrak and the Baltimore Police Department, allows the railroad officers to assist the Washington police and 32 federal agencies that operate in the nation's capital.
Congress has also authorized training for Amtrak police officers at the FBI's National Academy in Quantico, Virginia. Frazier said that Amtrak police officers who spot criminal activity outside their jurisdiction from the helicopter will make a quick call to the appropriate agency."
Also, the infa red cameras can probbably be used to look for trouble in the catenary. Not to mention inspect the ROW. The LIRR does this, and electric companies do it too.
After reading many posts about Coney Island, etc. I just have to comment on the wasted land both at Coney and also in Rockaway, east of the old site of Rockaway's Playland. Being born in the 50's, I visted both these parks many times (even rode the parachute jump). I think it very sad to see all the abandoned land in places where so much fun was had. To get to the point, I think SOMEONE should be smart enough to figure a way to use this land (miles of which are sand dunes in the Rockaways) AND make money for themselves and the city. Has anyone ever played Monopoly? Which is the most valuable land? Boardwalk!! Except in NYC, where miles of beachfront, with a usable Boardwalk in most places, are left to the gulls. And to keep the subject transit related, both these areas are well served by the Subway. What do you guys think? Is the city really this stupid?
Both Coney Island and the Rockaways are affected by concentrations of public housing. It takes a high sales price to justify new construction, especially when you have to put streets, sewers etc. in. People who can afford to pay that don't want to live next to statutory low income public housing. On the other hand, if you build anywhere in the outer boroughs, you don't have to pay taxes for years and years.
Both Coney Island and the Rockaways are affected by concentrations of public housing. It takes a high sales price to justify new construction, especially when you have to put streets, sewers etc. in.
People who can afford to pay that don't want to live next to statutory low income public housing. On the other hand, if you build anywhere in the outer boroughs, you don't have to pay taxes for years and years.
Dunno if the closeness of the projects is much of a factor. New Yorkers seem less geographically demanding in terms of their cordon sanitaire requirements than are most folks in the Great Flyover. Witness the Upper East Side in the 90's, where you've got luxury housing in fairly close proximity to tenements. In Far Rockaway itself, there's a fairly affluent and thriving Orthodox Jewish community practically cheek-by-jowl with the projects. And in any event, the parts of the Rockaway peninsula most ripe for development (translation: the parts that are the most Moonscape-ish) aren't all that close to the projects.
I'd say that transportation and amenities are the Big Kahunas preventing Arverne's and Edgemere's development ... leaving aside the childish political squabbles that so characterize New York today and which would be wholly unacceptable anywhere in the Sunbelt. Yes, the A train serves the peninsula, but it's certainly a long, long haul to Manhattan. Many nice suburban areas are closer by commuter rail. And even if quality housing were built in Arverne and Edgemere, things such as supermarkets, theaters, restaurants, even neighborhood shops wouldn't follow for years, if ever. People know that, and therefore would be hesitant to move into the area no matter how nice the housing.
Since, as you point out, the Rockaways are really too far from Manhattan for good subway service, the TA ought to turn the ROWs over to someone else, who knows how to do it, to run commuter rail service. Do you think MNCRR would be interested? Maybe they could even arange joint service with the LIRR through Woodhaven to Flatbush Terminal or down the Montauk Brnach to LIC?
Why do you think the LIRR got rid of it almost 50 years ago
The biggest problem with the subway out there is the long waits. It might be well worth it for the city or a private developer to pay the TA to halve the A's headways, or to extend the C to Lefferts so all A's could go to Far Rockaway. Once on the train, the ride to Manhattan is under an hour, and unlike commuter rail, the A train goes directly to many destinations (and even those who have to transfer have less of a hassle than at GCT and PS).
The biggest problem with the subway out there is the long waits. It might be well worth it for the city or a private developer to pay the TA to halve the A's headways, or to extend the C to Lefferts so all A's could go to Far Rockaway.
Interesting idea ... has it ever been done?
(The biggest problem with the subway out there is the long waits. It might be well worth it for the city or a private
developer to pay the TA to halve the A's headways, or to extend the C to Lefferts so all A's could go to Far Rockaway.
Interesting idea ... has it ever been done? )
I've heard of developers investing in stations that serve their developments, but not in ongoing operations. That's tough.
Perhaps the developer could pay the TA for, say, fifteen years of improved service. By that time, either enough people will be living there that the TA will have to pay for the improved service or the project will have failed.
B"H
can you say 'poor transit'? i used to go to school in seagate, and let me tell you...a good 15-20 minute wait for the bus and then a 10-15 min bus ride just to get to the subway! yikes.
-yitz
But that's not the prime of Coney Island that he was talking about.
A company called Alcor (sp?) is interested in developing the "wasteland" area of Far Rockaway. They are responsible for the rebuilding of JFK's international arrivals building and the overall construction that is now going on over there.
BMTman
BMTman
"is interested in developing the "wasteland" area of Far Rockaway"
I need a litle help here.I have visited just about every area of NYC One of the only spots I've never seen; yet hear alot about is Far Rockaway.
"wasteland" Can someone explain? Is this a rundown part of NYC or is this term used metaphorically?
I need a litle help here.I have visited just about every area of NYC One of the only spots I've never seen; yet hear alot about is
Far Rockaway.
"wasteland" Can someone explain? Is this a rundown part of NYC or is this term used metaphorically?
Far Rockaway is the wide part of the Rockaway Peninsula located at its eastern end near Nassau County. The Mott Avenue terminal of the A train and the LIRR station are in Far Rockaway. For the most part, it's a fairly run-down area; not quite an out-and-out ghetto, but very close, containing in particular a number of skanky public housing projects. Oddly enough, at the eastern end of Far Rockaway, right along the Nassau line, there is a fairly affluent Orthodox Jewish community, scarcely a stone's throw away from squalor.
Yet Far Rockaway is not the "wasteland" part of the peninsula. That term applies to the Arverne and Edgemere sections to its west; both are so depopulated I hestiate to call them "neighborhoods." Both areas contained modest bungalows and other small homes, used mainly on a seasonal basis, until they were condemned and levelled as part of an urban renewal program in the late 1960's (I may be a bit off on the date). Due to the sort of petty political squabbles that are an invariable part of life in New York, nothing ever got built. Today, the areas are indeed a wasteland, with crumbling streets running through weed-covered vacant lots. It's quite a sight.
Actually, I call those parts of Arverne and Edgemere "No Man's Land", because the place is devoid of people -- no man nor woman are to be seen there (I've biked the Rockaway Boardwalk a number of times I recall being the only living sole within eyesight! Just me and the Piping Plovers...:-)
BMTman
I recall being the only living sole...
Your handle should be BMTfish. :)
Bob
Yet the A train continues to dutifully stop there.
Peter, thanks for the info.
This comes as a surprise to me. I did not know about this area at all. Looking at a map, this place looks like a resort area along a peninsula featuring a beautiful boardwalk. What is the story behind it's demise? What happened and why. If this is 30 years in the making, why haven' they rebuilt? Infrustructure is in place , public transport goes out there, I assume police is on hand with it's own municipal counsil. What made this area fall and not another one?
Any pictures on the board of Far Rockaway?
Thanks again, Marty.
Well, this picture doesn't portray the wasteland but it does show one area in which the Rockaways have been neglected:
This picture is from Rockaway Freeway, directly below the A tracks. Oddly, those red lights have been retrofitted with LEDs!
David, just wondering what interesection this is and if you had any other pictures?
I'm driving east on Rockaway Freeway. The westbound roadway is to the left (not under the tracks). To the right is an entirely separate street (Edgemere Avenue, I think). I'm not sure what the cross street is, but these traffic signals are all over this area, not just at one intersection. (This is clearly a major intersection -- there's cross traffic!)
The best way, IMO, to experience the area is to ride the A train and keep your eyes open for, well, nothing at all! You can't miss it. Get out and walk around if you like.
As for other pictures -- I have lots, but this is the only one I have of the Rockaways.
This one might give you an idea of what the area is like ....
--Mark
Edgemere does have a housing project.
It also has an abandoned landfill. I think it would have made sense to close Fresh Kills in 1991 and continue dumping in Edgemere instead.
But Edgemere is potentially prime real estate. Fresh Kills is in Staten Island.
BMTman
"is interested in developing the "wasteland" area of Far Rockaway"
I need a litle help here.I have visited just about every area of NYC. One of the only spots I've never seen yet heard alot about is Far Rockaway.
"wasteland" Can someone explain? Is this a rundown part of NYC or is this term used metaphoricaly?
Is the city really this stupid?
Yes.
Unless you haven't been reading the posts on Coney Island, there are few investors who would touch places that are vunerable to harsh winter weather and constant beach erosion and lack serious acreage (as does both CI and the old Rockaway Playland). The cost of enclosing the remaining attractions (or building new ones) would not be cost effective if you do not have the parking facilities to attract upper-middle income families (most likely to come from the burbs) who would help to offset the fact that the majority of those to frequent these parks would be the lower-classes who just wouldn't have the same spending power to keep a revamped park afloat.
BTW, these amusement park related threads are starting to go in circles... isn't it about time we put this stuff to bed??????????
BMTman
both these areas are well served by the Subway
Not Rockaway! It might be served by the subway, but not well. The most frequent subway service there is every 10 minutes during rush hours, every 20 all other times (not just nights!), The Rockaway Shuttle runs at the same frequency as the Far Rockaway A during off peak hours and during a brief period during the rush hour (less than two hours worth) runs every 15 minutes. During this time some A service also goes to Rockaway Park, but it runs only every 20 minutes.
[both these areas are well served by the Subway
Not Rockaway! It might be served by the subway, but not well. The most frequent subway service there is every 10 minutes during rush hours, every 20 all other
times (not just nights!), The Rockaway Shuttle runs at the same frequency as the Far Rockaway A during off peak hours and during a brief period during the rush
hour (less than two hours worth) runs every 15 minutes. During this time some A service also goes to Rockaway Park, but it runs only every 20 minutes. ]
I guess well served was a bad choice of words. What I meant was that at least a subway line EXISTS there, and doesn't have to wait for some never to be completed project. It runs parallel to the beach for several miles.
In general, I wasn't just talking about amusement parks, but a large scale plan to get the most out of the unused land, maybe including parks as well. Winter weather hasn't hurt the Hamptons too much, and getting out east is not that easy.
i was thinking about ed norton's suggestion to put pool tables in the driver's room to help the drivers unwind after a hard day on the road... that led me to submit a bid to the mta to equip all bus and subway crewrooms with virtual reality machines... we are all aware of the pressures and dangers that train operators, conductors,dispatchers, and bus operators work under...incidents occur during a normal day's work that build up tremendous anger and frustration in the hearts and minds of the workers... we certainly don't want the workers to act out on these strong feelings... the virtual reality machines will be the perfect way for employees to release stress... the machines will allow the worker to select a job title...
for example, he might choose to be a conductor during peak rush hour... he would put on virtual reality glasses, and view a typical platform scene... customer in the last car is holding the doors open... the conductor would be able to activate a bucket of hot lead right above the door and cause it to pour down on the inconsiderate customer... or to get back at the riders who spit on conductors, he could spit in the face of every waiting customer, as the train pulls out of the station ... platform conductors who are weary of seeing people trying to get into a packed car, would be equipped with a hot iron to press against the backside of any customer who is not fully in the car...
in the train operator mode, operators would be able to indulge in all their worst fantasies... running at top speed into the bumper block at the astoria terminal... going at top speed without stopping through packed stations... going brakes in emergency when there is a particularly obnoxious group of railfans at the front window... calling command center and demanding ten million dollars for you to avoid killing all your passengers...
i am sure that making these machines available in all crew rooms will go a long way to easing the psychological pressure placed on transit workers...
Good to have you back, Paul.:-)
Speaking of pool tables, here is an interesting observation from an advanced management class:
Urban youth play basketball
Hourly employees enjoy bowling
Supervisors play softball
Middle managers enjoy tennis
Senior managers meet over a round of golf
What does this all mean?
The higher you move in the corporation
the smaller your balls get!
Hey Train Dude -- I appreciate your observation.
Here's one that compliments your post:
I notice that with the exception of hourly employees, the balls also tend to get harder as you go up the corporate ladder! :-o
BMTman
That must mean they play more hardball.:-)
Rim shot!
Train Dude & BMTman, thanks for the smile on my face this AM !
Mr t
Actually in our old depot we had a driving video game that our operators liked. I would come up behind a friend who was playing and shake the chair ... they weren't sure at first that it wasn't part of the game. We now DO have a pool table. The quarters that they put in are used for the Christmas party along with the profits from the soda machine, etc.
Mr t__:^)
Hi everyone!
I don't know how much of a pain this is or if it's listed somewhere here or someone else's site but is there a list somewhere of all terminals and routes that appear on the rollsigns of all the revenue trains. I know the Redbird ones were posted recently, but what about the others?
Thanks for all the help,
=)
The R-46 electronic signs were listed some time ago. You might want to check in the archives.
I was the one who posted the readings on the Redbirds. I don't know what the readings are on all the other NYCT trains, but check the archives. Someone posted a list of the R62 route signs a while ago. It's all like trying to fit pieces of a puzzle together, and you hope for a lucky break, and something to record your findings on. The best bet are cars whose signs are incorrect. I was on a 2 train once and the signs read
Grand Central
135-Lenox Av
4 Lexington Av Express
and was able to scroll through the signs and get all the readings on both the north and south terminal rolls. The signs could be changed via a knob so it was easy. It's much more difficult on the R32 cars since they all have the things where you'd need something like a hex key to change the reading in place of the knob. That's why I was able to get the readings on the Redbirds so easily. Also, when you look down through the window inside the car, you can see the next reading on the roll. This doesn't work on the R40 through R68 because their roll signs seem to have the rolls in different positions than those on the redbirds, and they have the hex key holes instead of knobs.
I can go through my R-1/9 sign curtains and give a rundown. If you were to set up a readout like the one you did for the Redbird signs, the destination slots would have to be smaller than the route slot because on those old timers the route signs were taller.
I have been reading with interest the latest postings about AirTrain. Having closely followed the issue since 1994, I would like to try to "focus the camera" on the issue more clearly, so to speak.
In some ways, the Rockaway ROW, NIMBY, and other specifics discussed are true but not that relevant to the core issues. They are not quite "red herrings," but they might as well be. The issue of turf between the PA and MTA is not relevant, because the agencies must cooperate in any case to serve the airport. Yes, there are arguments, but to focus on that misses the whole point.
The MTA has a plate full of projects, wanted or unwanted. They have constant budget concerns. To top it off, the Governor and MTA board are clearly not interested in the Rockaway Branch, primarily because there is not sufficient East River tunnel capacity to accommodate the service. LIRR, New Jersey Transit and Amtrak use those tunnels - NJT to reach its service yard, the others for both passenger service and storage. To try to add another Manhattan bound train route to this would just impede existing services, which are already overcrowded.
The proposed East Side access program would add two more tracks into Manhattan, and this was given major emphasis in the 2000-2004 MTA Capital Plan. Once this is accomplished (after 2010, probably), then the MTA could revisit the issue of Rockaway or other additional branch service.
Combine that with the decrepit state of the Rockaway Branch, and clearly, the MTA is in no position to build this line. It does bother me that a few people (the Committee for Better Transit, for one example), know this to be true and advocate the opposite, dishonestly, for their own narrow political purpose.
The MTA does have a ROW into Kennedy from the A subway, but does not like building a lot of branches which complicate services, and subway cars cannot serve the terminals well in any event.
The Port Authority made an incredibly important contribution by constructing a rail line using airport transfer charges (PFC) in place of tax or farebx revenue. It neatly solved a major, major impediment to building a mass transit line to the airport, and since the federal appeals court upheld this means of funding, other cities and cash-strapped transit authorities will be examining this as an option of themselves as well. It was not hostage to the capital plan, was not dependent on a bond issue, and yet still was subject to a public process accessible to all.
The other contribution made by the Port Authority is the completion of this line by 2003 - at least ten years if not fifteen sooner than the MTA could have done. Even if there are some shortcomings to the route selection (and I doubt that these shortcomings would impact usage in the long run), it is infinitely better than a train line which exists only on paper and on the chatroom of nycsubway.org.
Jamaica Station is accessible to Long Island, to Manhattan, and to other destinations as well, and the ADA-compliant transfer to the A, E and J subways makes the airport connection accessible to many in Brooklyn and Queens as well.
>>>LIRR, New Jersey Transit and Amtrak use [the East River] tunnels - NJT to reach its service yard, the others for both passenger service and storage. <<<
Seems to me that NJT should have its service yard in New Jersey, probably somewhere between Newark and the Hudson River tunnel. There's a lot of unused indudstrial space in the swamp there. Why NJT gets to gum up the East River tubes while providing no service beyond them makes no sense.
You may be dead right - but perhaps NJT feels it's more efficient to get servicing where everyone else gets it.
In any case, it's a fact of life - and the MTA cannot currently get around it without a new East River Tunnel.
I hope East Side Access survives the Capital Plan rewrite.
Besides there isn't enough Hudson River tunnel capacity to put a yard in New Jersey. As others have suggested, there should be another tunnel linking the sothern-most tracks at Penn Station to Queens.
Here's a wacky idea, short of building new tunnels, and after a bag or two of money turns up from under a rock: Once the Newark Airport Rail Station is completed, that may become a destination by itself. Run trains requiring maintenance from NYP to there before taking them OOS to the yard near Manhattan Transfer, where the Raritan trains lay-up. Build the maintenance shops there. That way, trains through the Hudson tunnels always have passengers, and no empty NJT trains will traverse the East River, which will free-up tunnel capacity to Long Island.
Has NJT's management considered an idea like this? What do they think about it?
To be serious, I'm sure there are a myriad of factors contributing to the current set-up which we don't even know about. I was just sort of thinking out-loud.
Consider this: Everybody wants the service he or she wants. If I had my druthers, I would be able to walk out my front door into a private entrance to my private subway car which would be waiting for me when I got there with plenty of room. It would take me to work right on time and be waiting for me for the return trip that night. I always think of this when I read this post or that post about why this train doesn't stop there anymore, or why this interlocking is bypassed in favor of another route, etc. etc.
Just because we all might think the 'G' train ought to continue on to Queens Plaza doesn't mean that will result in the best service for the most people. If the TA is cutting it back to Court Square, it's probably because they think that's the best way to provide the most service to the most people for the least cost (and, to be realistic, with the least political ramifications).
These state agencies are under more scrutiny than private corporations, and their actions are more accountable. We are free to yell loudly at public hearings every time major changes are proposed. Therefore, I don't think many decisions are made haphazardly. As much as we might not think so, the various transit agencies' managers have access to more of the information about their systems than any one of us, and they are thus equipped to make the best service decisions, even though a few of us may not like it. I can't imagine that the service plans are random or malicious. There are alway factors of which we are unaware as to why our trains are not perfect for us. We aren't the only ones using the system, nor are we the only ones paying for it!
That being said, I still reserve the right to complain just as loudly when I feel I'm getting the shaft! I'll just try to remember that I'm not the only passenger in the system.
I liked your comments a lot. A lot of people wouldn't have enough humility, understanding or self-awareness to write that.
You caused me to look over a few of my postings to see where I might have been a little too shrill. Of course the First Amendment protects my right to be shrill. But at least I'll be more aware of it...
Whoa! I sure didn't mean to criticize you, or anyone for that matter. This thread just made me think of the fact that there are probably reasons why the tunnels are used the way they are, and, more broadly, why transit agencies can't please all of the people all of the time. The zeal of my own railfandom sometimes causes me to forget that I'm not the only one who needs to get around from place to place.
Go ahead, be shrill! It's your right, as long as you're not yelling, "Fire," in a crowded theatre. There's a reason Dave's got that blue ribbon on the homepage! :o)
I didn't take it as criticism, only as insight. I genuinely appreciated your posting. I look forward to reading more.
As I do yours.
As I said before NJT has very extensive shops where the PRR Meddows Enginehouse used to be. That's just a quick trip down the Waterfront connection just east of Manhattan Transfer.
Yo, nitwit, you think it would be better for NJT to spend a tonne of money, pave over wetlands and try to squeeze through the 2, longer North River tubes that are all ready filled to the brim just so some New Yorkers could get a 1 seat ride from the airport? As it is LIAR and Amtrak/NJT get equal tunnel space. In fact the LIAR gets more because it sometimes uses the W/B Amtrak tube. The system works fine the way it is. The only "improvement" would be new tunnels into Penn Station.
From my view, the land between the Hudson tunnels and Newark Penn Station contains plenty of space occupied by old industrial sites, which could be converted by NJT for maintenance shops. All trains out of NYP would be full. The trains serviced at the New Jersey maintenance site I "propose" could be late-night North/East-bound trains with a final stop at Newark. This would minimize deadheading, and result in no light-running trains occupying either river's tubes. I'm attempting to solve the problem of empty trains occupying crowded tunnels in a theoretical sense, without regard to expenditure of capital.
As for the nitwit comment, it disappoints and surprises me to see it directed at me, a fellow PRR enthusiast and one of the SubTalkers who shows interest in your threads and occassionally defends you against the periodic nasty post thrown your way. (Maybe you're used to people insulting New Jersey. I'm not one of them.) If this is the way you treat your friends...
Pete, he treats us all the same, friend or foe. NJT has a big yard east of Newark, but the simple fact is that service is to NEW YORK and most of the passengers - especially the late-night ones - are headed there, so deadhead moves are required regardless. And there's more space in the East River tubes than in the ones under the Hudson.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm sorry aboot the comment. I just got a little exasperated with the thought of NJT having to spend millions and more of the meddowlands disappearing. There is unused industrial space, but its not around the PRR main. In the 50's the route went through virgin wetland, but today lots of it has been tied up in new transportation projects (Turnpike and container storage depots). Like mouse said there is a large yard on the site of Manhattan Transfer and it is controled by HUDSON tower. Its mostly used by Aldene Plan trains and some Newark terminating MU's. NJT has repair shoppes in Hoboken so they don't need to deadhead dead trains through the tunnels. Again I'm sorry about calling you a nitwit.
It's historical. PRR commuter trains from NJ used to ditch in Sunnyside, along with PRR and other LD trains. It's WHY there are extra tunnels to LI. In any case, Penn Station is sorelyin need of more capacity. Don't count on it happening as long as Amtrak own it though.
The only option is a second level and that will cost a real chunk of change. The project would have to not disrupt other service. I could see the city paying for a second LIAR level.
I could see the city paying for a second LIAR level.
I can't. They would be better off building the connection from LIRR to GCT.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ron, A very detailed comment, but did you have a question ?
[I would like to try to "focus the camera" on the issue more clearly, so to speak.]
I read it fairly carefully but don't see one. I'm of the opinion that WHERE the JFK line will/should be built is water under the bridge. So now the issue is who should/will build the piece to La Guardia and connect them both to Manhattan ?
- JFK/Manhattan can be served from Jamaica, even though it "official" purpose is to serve Long Islanders.
- La Guardia maybe better served by an extention of the N (opps here we go starting up this thread AGAIN). Based on your logic of the PA can do but the MTA can't ... maybe the PA will build it. Does that mean that they'll want to use the tracks to Hell Gate as far as they can, then branch off to the airport OR are they going to want to make a run through Flushing Meadow & over the Grand Central Parkway to get there ?
Am I out of focus ?
Mr t__:^)
My commentary was intended to illuminate the how and why AirTrain was accomplished, which appears to be misunderstood by some, not to advocate for a particular plan for La Guardia.
La Guardia's rail service will require the cooperation of the PA and MTA, which is facilitated by the reality that both agency heads ultimately answer to the Governor (Governors in the PA's case). The N train extension is one possibility. Another is an extension of subway service north on Steinway Street from the existing G and R line, and then east, providing service to East Elmhurst as well as La Guardia. This approach is more likely to meet approval from Peter Vallone and others on the city council, whereas the N extension would meet with considerable opposition. A Steinway Street extension tunnel would also offer an airport subway train access to the 63rdst St, 60th St or 53rd St tunnels.
The Port Authority could contribute money directly to the building of such a line, reducing the amount of money the MTA would have to raise itself.
There are other possibilities, of course, and I invite site contributors to post them here.
Very interesting post. However, it was somewhat lacking in focus. You never did identify or mention any "misconceptions." Actually, I don't believe that we "misunderstood" how the Airtrain was accomplished. We understood very well. We just don't like how it was accomplished. We wanted it to be accomplished using the Rockaway Beach Branch ROW to create a one seat ride into Manhattan.
What has been accomplished is "half a loaf," despite both agencies having to cooperate because they both answer to Pataki.
What you conveniently overlook is the fact that the Rockaway ROW is not an option available on the table. It is not technically feasible without East Side Access completion; it is not politically feasible without extensive community education and preparation; it is not fiscally feasible at this point.
If I were Bill Gates and had a couple of billion dollars lying around that I didn't have anything better to do with, I could write a check to fund part of this and get around some of these obstacles.
I wonder if you want any rail development at all. Advocating for something that you know to be infeasible is acommon politician's tactic: pretend you're for something and oppose every feasible option, focusing on only that which cannot be achieved. That isthe strategy the Committee for Better Transit used, and it appears to be your strategy.
What you conveniently overlook is the fact that the Rockaway ROW is not an option available on the table ... I wonder if you want any rail development at all. Advocating for something that you know to be infeasible is acommon politician's tactic: pretend you're for something and oppose every feasible option, focusing on only that which cannot be achieved. That is the strategy the Committee for Better Transit used, and it appears to be your strategy.
I agree with your basic point, and I'll admit to some exasperation with the CBT and their pie-in-the-sky proposals, BUT ... it's all too apparent that the Powers that Be in NYC (and this most definitely includes the MTA) do not have even the slightest degree of boldness, let alone audacity, when it comes to future projects. Put differently, the city's "can-do" spirit has shriveled up and died. You no longer get serious, non-idle-chatter proposals for anything but the most piddling little projects. All we have are baby-step incremental changes, like the completion of the 63rd Street connection. Bigger things like the Second Avenue subway never get beyond the talking stage, and even by the most optimistic estimates are decades off.
I, for one, would like to see city and MTA politicians being just a wee bit bolder, though of course not going all the way to the CBT's level. Other cities can get things done, NYC can too.
I agree with you 100%. Understand though, that MTA's timidity is purposeful: Virgil Conway, the chairman, is under strict marching orders from Governor Pataki not to engage in huge projects (with the exception of East Side Access); if I recall correctly, the funds for completion of the 63rd St project were already committed by the previous Governor, so Pataki left it alone.
I am not a "single issue" voter, and Pataki has done some good in other areas (esp. land conservation), so I don't know that I would automatically vote for a different Governor because I don't like Conway's leadership. However, if we want to get more done, we will have to make deals with upstate legislators who are hostile to NYC, get Joe Bruno in the Senate to sign off on a deal, and then Pataki will back it. Then Conway will give a "green signal" to build something.
Not impossible. But it is why I have emphasized the importance of political acceptance to any proposals we want the MTA to consider.
I've overlooked nothing. Just because something can't be done, doesn't mean that it's not superior to what is being done or that those of us who favor the superior are not justified in being disappointed that the superior project cannot be accomplished. The government's inability to do what should be done does nothing to negate the shortcomings of the lesser project.
Life is full of compromises. Those who made this one may very well have been justified by the circumstances they faced. Or not. Either way, it's still a compromise.
La Guardia's rail service will require the cooperation of the PA and MTA, which is facilitated by the reality that both agency heads ultimately answer to the Governor (Governors in the PA's case).
Actually this is the problem. The PA answers to both the Governors of NY and NJ. Why on earth would a NJ governor agree to a PA project that only helped New York and New Yorkers? Most NJ residents would rather see the money dumped into the Hudson than have it only help NY. We want more people to fly into NWK rather than use LAG or JFK because those people need services provided by NJ workers and NJ firms. The same deal works w/ the roles reversed.
The rule of thumb is that if one state wants the PA to do something, the other state will oppose it and kill it. This leaves the PA free to do whatever the hell it wants (because if one state wants to kill a project, the other state will want to support it) and the result is boondoggle projects that help nobody and millions in tolls and other revenue going into some deep dark pit where it will never see the light of day. (One day I will find where all that money is going.)
Your cynicism about the PA has a reasonable basis. I certainly don't blame you for feeling the way you do. However, Whitman and Pataki have appeared to at least make an effort to patch up their differences, and I am hopeful that worthy projects will come out of the "morass" soon. One worthy project is PATH's extension to the Newark Airport rail station, now a proposal on the table.
Nothing is every 100% wasted. The World Trade Center was a masterpiece of engineering and showed how a lot of people could be served with relatively little real estate. PATH is not a boondoggle; AirTrain will have the opportunity to prove itself, and is far from the most expensive project the PA attempted.
EWR (please note Newark Airport's correct designation) is a nice airport, and is vital to the region, but JFK is among the nation's top cargo teminals, and the PA's $600 million rebuild is going to help keep it there. That isn't a boondoggle either.
A branch off the IND Queens Blvd local at Steinway Street to East Elmhurst as a way to get to La Guardia would be a neet way to also put subway service to that area, BUT it ain't going to happen. Not by the PA anyway.
Look at the JFK line, it runs right by all the folks between there & Jamaica, because it is NOT a subway line. If by some chance the TA acquires that line some day, maybe they'll build station over the Van Wyke along the way. They sure would be unique.
I will say this, you're made this topic interesting again.
Mr t__:^)
Thank you, sir, for your compliment.
You are correct. The subway line north on Steinway St would be an MTA project. However, the PA by law has the right to offer grants to the MTA to help the MTA build a subway if it has "regional" impact - and there is a proposal before the PA Board right now that would give NY and NJ each about $250 million. NY's portion would go for assistance to the East Side Access project. This is just a proposal, and there is no guarantee it will be adopted, so we'll need to stay tuned...
I wanted to add an additional note about the question of NIMBY - I've addressed this before ad nauseum, but I think it's an important point.
The AirTrain NIMBY factor was quite small. The "opposition" was two dozen people augmented by persons recruited originally by the airlines to try to force the PA to spend money only in the airport proper. Anyone who watched the airline lobbyists' careful orchestration at the community board meetings would know this. Once this dropped away, there was very little in the way of true opposition to the project. Quite to the contrary: a lot of people in the community wanted the investment the train represented, and evidence following the completion of columns along the Van Wyck shows that neighborhood disruption was minimal. Rockaway Blvd. is undergoing improvements, and both York College and Aviation High School got programs that students badly needed and was wanted also by industry.
Contrast that to the area around the LIRR Rockaway Branch. The community boards would not support this project wholeheartedly; AirTrain won overwhelming support in all affected community boards.
A lot more people would oppose the project. I personally think more rail service in the area is a good idea, but this has to be taken into account.
The bottom line: The Port Authority had the money, the legal and political imperative and a pretty good plan. The MTA had neither the budget, nor the East River tunnel capacity, nor political support for the Rockaway Branch.
In New York there is a fine tradition of "My Way or No Way" which even some posters to this site display. It's silly- and the PA did the right thing by getting AirTrain done.
Future improvements, by the way, may include a hybrid LIRR "one seat" service - but we need to get East Side Access done first.
>>>The "opposition" was two dozen people augmented by persons recruited originally by the airlines to try to force the PA to spend money only in the airport proper.<<<
And I've said this before too: It boggles the mind: Why the airlines would oppose a project which would make it easier for people to get to the places where they sell their product is totally beyond me. The PA has just mandated a hold on the addition of takeoffs and landings at LGA, and is attempting to limit them further by charging higher fees for usage of the runways during peak times to encourage airlines to spread out their service over the course of the day/week. (These fees will undoubtedly NOT have the desired effect, as the airlines will simply pass the fee along to the customer in the form fare increases. Then, not only will it still be difficult to get to the airports in New York, but you will ave to pay more once you get there.)
IMHO, the fact that spending "airport" money on rapid transit will allow collateral transit service not directly serving the airlines is no big deal. The government-built highways which serve JFK, don't ONLY serve JFK! Why should the Airtrain, or the eventual "one-seat ride" serve ONLY JFK either? (Personally, I think more than just the airlines are behind rail-opposition. Consider Big Oil, who provides jet-fuel and the gas which is consumed as people drive to the airport. Now, I'm no conspiracy theorist, but now that Big Oil will most likely be in the White House come January, I'm not expecting any real progress on transportation for at least four years. Dub-yuh probably doesn't even know there is a Federal Department of Transportation, but that's another story...)
Considering the way air-travel is growing, I would not be surprised to see the airlines singing the praises of AirTrain as the savior of their business in New York in a few years. Every passenger in and out of this city experiences gridlock on the roads and runways alike. I hope and pray Acela gives them the wake-up call that it should.
Why the airlines would oppose a project which would make it easier for people to get to the places where they sell their product is totally beyond me.
IIRC, they objected to the $3 tax they were required to add to all tickets that they felt should have been devoted to ON-airport improvements.
I would not be surprised to see the airlines singing the praises of AirTrain as the savior of their business in New York in a few years. Every passenger in and out of this city experiences gridlock on the roads and runways alike.
Frankly, it's hard to believe the airlines give a d*mn whether their passengers get there on time or not. They certainly don't seem to care about the huge lines in the airports once we arrive.
Keystone Pete: You're right on the money.
Every dollar that the PA spends on the airport proper is money that the airlines don't have to spend to create the necessary terminal, ramp or other improvements. So it's as if that money goes directly to the airlines' balance sheets. That's why the airlines opposed the construction of AirTrain.
Of course, now that it's coming, they are changing their tune. I have correspondence from American, Delta and others that ticket vending kiosks and other amenities are in store for Jamaica Station. Baggage handling would be great, too, but the logistics would have to be worked out, and they are not trivial.
Baggage handling would be great, too, but the logistics would have to be worked out, and they are not trivial.
They've been worked out at TCAT (Tokyo City Air Terminal) - complete with exit customs.
Fabulous! With time and the same "can do" attitude that got AirTrain built, maybe we'll see it here.
Hell no!
TCAT is a bus terminal on an expressway in downtown Tokyo. One takes a bus to the plane at Narita. However, that bus comes after the counter checkin, exit customs and metal detectors. A passenger is guaranteed his plane seat and given his boarding pass, if he checks into TCAT on time. He can also pass the time at the duty free shops at TCAT.
There used to be Manhattan based airline terminals that were run by the TBTA. They might have been as successful as TCAT, had they provided such passenger amenities.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with building such a bus terminal outside of JFK property at a location served by public transit, such as the Jamaica LIRR Station, Euclid Ave Bklyn or the Victor Moore Arcade for LGA. These locations would provide a short bus ride to the airport, over local streets, that would be less subject to traffic problems. They would also provide about 90% of the service provided by Air Train at about 10% of the cost.
You missed the boat on this one. Moving baggage checkin and tickets to a mass transit terminal is a great idea, but anyone who believes bus services can provide 90% of a rail service's features at 10% of the cost in the New York environment doesn't understand the dynamics of mass transit very well.
AirTrain will ultimately have to prove itself, no matter what we say now - that's clear.
No Steve, a bus will never do what a train can do in New York.
Moving baggage checkin and tickets to a mass transit terminal is a great idea
Incidentally, isn't this available when you take Heathrow Express from London? And I believe they're setting aside space for airline counters in the new Penn Station annex in the GPO building.
I believe you are correct on both points.
London Heathrow Airport is served by both London Underground (the subway)and by a British Rail commuter train.
"AirTrain won overwhelming support in all affected community boards"???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
That is correct. And since the boards reflected the demographic makeup of the community, they reflected what the community wanted.
Nonsequituor. Community Boards are composed of the political cronies of the City Council members. Some of them may reflect the views of their constituents, but siting "demographic makeup" as some guaranty of that is racist nonesense. Do you think that all Irish think alike, too?
Your blanket condemnation of community boards is nonsensical and ignorant. Apparently, the fact that elected both elected officials and community board members overwhelmingly voted in favor of the project means nothing.
I was very offended to find out that two dozen people, whom no one elected, appointed themselves the representatives of Queens and tried to tell everyone that their NIMBY views were the true sentiment in the community. If anything, that was an attempt to portray their neighbors as monolithic. Of course they had every right to speak out, and they did. But they did exactly what you are doing now.
Perhaps my original post was not sufficiently clear. I don't know why you think that it is a "blanket condemnation of community boards" to say that they are appointed by members of the City Council. Nor is it necessarily negative to suggest that the people appointed are known to those who appoint them. As for elected officials and their appointees having a common opinion on an issue, that is neither surprising nor particularly impressive.
My point was that the arrangements for selection of community board members do not guaranty that the views of the board members reflect those of the community. I did not intend to suggest that the board members views did not reflect the views of the community, just that someone reading your post has no basis for forming an opinion in either direction. Your reference to demographics in your original post adds nothing.
As for the self-anointed spoksmen of the community who opposed the project, they are not the only ones ever to assert that their views have more validity because, allegedly, everyone agrees with them. People do that all of the time. Intelligent people discount such claims as being both of dubious accuracy and of little value in determining the ultimate wisdom of whatever proposal is being discussed. I understand and share your annoyance with the NIMBYs tactics, but I am afraid we will have to accept such tactics for the time being as part of the political landscape.
In closing, let me say that I am completely puzzled by your parting shot. Just what was it that they were doing that I am doing now?
I found a web page full of anagrams. Here is a clever one:
The Great New York Rapid Transit Tunnel = Giant Work in Street, Partly Underneath
The best part is it works ANY Great New York Rapid Transit Tunnel.
Oop!!
Thought it said "Giant Work In Street, PARTY underneath."
My personal favorite is 'Spiro Agnew'.
-Hank :)
Here is the link to the Anagram Hall of Fame:
http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/hof.html
Yes, Mr. Grow a Spine is on there too.
Um, no, that's not it. Try 'Spine'.
-Hank
Wasn't there a Monty Python where they had a guy who talked only in anagrams, but at the end they caught him doing a Spoonerism. What is a Spoonerism and how did the sketch go?
That was Eric Idle talking entirely in anagrams. "Shroe" instead of "horse", that sort of thing. He finished with something like, "Well, if you don't like it, I'm going to piss off."
Even the closing credits were done in anagrams, right down to "Eth Ned" for "The End".
BTW, did someone post a sound bit of the Liberty Bell March theme to that show once? I've got a sound card now and would love to include it with my assorted R-10 and R-46 door sounds.
And now for something completely different...
He pissed off because the host pointed out that his last sentence was a Spoonerism, not a anagram. Eric said "If you're going to split hairs I'm going to piss off." However, I can not remember the Spoonerism or what a Spoonerism is.
Oops, I almost forgot.
It's............
A spoonerism is when you switch the first letters of two words, such as "Wrong Island Rail Load." (No charge for the extra W). Also, it's supposed to be humorous, unlike my example...
They go on sale tomorrow, right?
10 a.m.
Keystone Pete will be booking then too!
Wow, our very own Keystone Pete will be on the very first public ACELA run. You know that for the price of an ACELA ticket you could buy a used PRR position light signal or 4 reasonable quality GG-1 models.
Well, I probably won't make the first run on Dec. 11, but I hope to ride later in the month. I'll keep you posted.
Try to Ride a Metroliner before they disappear. Same w/ the Clocker. Those are like the last 2 PRR relics still running.
I remember riding "Keystone" trains in the early '90s. Then, they were called "Harrisburg Express." Wonder if that was a PRR term. (This was before the "Northeast Direct" marketing scheme.)
An AEM-7 hauling 7 Amfleet coaches isn't a PRR relic just because it's called "Metroliner Service". I rode a real Metroliner and took 3 slides through the front window as we overtook a GG-1 hauled train between Philly and Baltimore.
Its more of a PRR Relic then an AEM-7 hauling 7 Amfleet coaches that is called ACELA Regional. I take my thrills where I can get them. I guess the LAST Amtrak PRR relic (besides the PRR Position Light signals and catenary and US&S A-5 switches and Towers) will be the Vermonter. Why? They always have a cab car that led a former life as a Metroliner EMU. I always try to ride in the Metroliner Car.
10AM? How long do you think I can go before it is sold out? I plan to travel around X-mas day.
I'm traveling a little before Xmas too. These reservations will be new for you, me and Amtrak. Good luck!
Amtrak's Acela website: http://www.acela.com/
Hmmm, they'er being a little optimistic with the .com extention. There's an even chance that ACELA could end up as a non-profit .organization. Same goes for AMTRAK. I'm sure former citizen John McKane would have gone rip had they registered under Amtrak.org or Amtrak.gov.
Just found this article in Sundays Newsday.
How do you find all these rail related articles in so many different publications?
How do you find all these rail related articles in so many different publications?
Railpace Hot News. When they reference the item, I look for the original.
He reads things other than comic books.
-Hank
I don't read comic books and I don't listen to music either. I probably spend the most time reading SubTalk.
Then you need to get out and have a life.
-Hank
Railfanning is* my life.
*a large part of
While everybody is pointing fingers at LIRR, EMD, etc. about the fires, the one in Huntington was NOT the fault of the LIRR, nor was it the fault of EMD.
I recently was in contact with an official of the LIRR, who told me what REALLY caused the fire on the unit at Huntington (and he said the unit is most likely going to be written off and used for parts).
Wanna know what caused it? VANDALISM!!! Yes, that's what I typed....vandalism.
It seems that the fire on that unit was caused by some kids who dropped a grocery shopping cart onto the tracks somehow and when the train passed, it got wedged between the third rail and the lead truck on the right front side of the loco. The shoe beam did catch fire after all the violent arcing caused by the shopping cart contacting the third rail and grounding to the truck journal box. The fire continued to burn -- actually, the electricity continued to WELD things via that huge arcing -- until the third rail power was cut. Once the power was cut, out went the fire. The shoe beam fire in the case of this unit was actually thought to be a secondary result once the shopping cart caused the major arcing between the third rail and the truck of the locomotive.
The fire managed to go up through the central aisle inside the loco, burned a lot of the wiring as well as the master computer and even part of the cab floor before it was totally out. Scratch one 3.5 million dollar loco because some kids were playing (i.e. vandalizing).
Are there any planes to get new trains on the red orange or blue lines? also when will the bredas be back?
No, maybe, yes, and who knows.
Now the details.
In Boston, there are no plans for new Red Line cars. The capital budget had money for new Blue Line cars (due in 2-3 years; the Request for Proposal is about to go out). There is an option in this RFP for a small number of new Orange Line cars. If no bidder wants to supply a small number of cars for the Orange Line, the MBTA may overhall some of the current Blue Line cars to run on the Orange Line (dimensions are such that eight Blues = six Oranges).
The Type-8 Breda cars underwent testing a few weekends ago on the Riverside Line. I have heard no rumors as to the outcome. Perhaps one of my Boston colleagues has.
I was thinking of an event that others might find interesting. I came up with the following idea. Take a walk along the H tracks as well as the lay up tracks north of Chambers on the Nassau line. Is this doable? What kind of permission do you need from NYCT? Also, what would stop someone from doing this on their own? :)
Would anyone be interested in such an event?
Shawn
> Would anyone be interested in such an event?
Probably, but don't plan it here. No trespassing in the name of this site, please.
I also asked about what kinda of permissions would be required. I wasn't planning on organizing any tresspassing party on SubTalk. If we cannot get permission then we will not do it, simple as that.
Sorry about making it sound like I was trying to do something to damage nycsubway.org's name.
Shawn
Anything on TA property would have to be done with their permission.
Going directly to the TA is the hard way, why not stop by the TA museum in Brooklyn and talk to some folks their. They would need to have someone in mind who knows the area & would be willing to give the tour before they would even consider it. They might be planning something like it, ask and you'll find out. Joining the museum would be another way to have some infulence on such tours.
More doable would be a "Field Trip" where you stay in the public areas. As I've said here before, I've been down on the lower level of the IND station at 42nd Street and in the trolley terminal at Essex Street on museum sponcered tours. Others here have been elsewhere behind the public areas.
Mr t__:^)
If the museum was forced to stop tours to the abandoned / out of service areas, what do you think the chances are of you getting permission to do what you've proposed? Unless you have a lot of clout that we're all not aware of, you don't stand much of a chance to make that happen, much as I'd love to see it.
--Mark
Agreed, I would need to know someone in the TA familar with the area, willing to do a tour, AND able to get permission to do it. A pritty tall order. Easier are tours to out of the way places where you don't have to go on the track ways or beside them.
BTW, CLOUT don't have any ... I'm just a little "suit" who works for a private company ... only have a little respect at the TA & nycDOT.
Mr t__:^)
He did inquire about asking the TA first. I'm guessing if one were to ask one of the workers (preferrably high-up on the chain of command) working on the restoration @ Canal, and brought one's own NYCT certified bright orange vest, it would be possible. Don't be surprised if the answer is a big fat hairy no.
How about getting arrested? I think that would dampen anybody's day...:-(
BMTman
As of today these are the proposals from TA operations and planning. None of this is written in stone and is still being reviewed.
July 1, 2001 the 6th ave side of the Manhattan bridge will close and the Broadway side will open, creating the following changes.
1. There will be no D trains in Brooklyn they will be replaced by the Q which will run from stillwell ave over the broadway side of the bridge and terminate at 57 and 7ave.
2. The B train will be replaced by the "W" train in brooklyn and will follow the N to astoria.
3. The D will run from 205st to 34 and 6 ave.
4. The B will run from 168st to 34 and 6 ave.
5. There will be a shuttle from Broadway Laffayette to Grand st.
On August 28, 2001 the 63 st tunnel will open creating the following changes.
1. The F will use 63 st to 179st.(no stops at Queens plaza,ely ave, lex or fifth).
2. E train regular.(53rd tube)
3 G train to run from 4 ave to court square (four cars).
4. A "V" train will run from second ave (via 63rd) to continental ave local.
So that means you won't be able to ride one subway train crosstown south to Brooklyn from Queens along the G route - in fact, you'll need three trains to do it, since the G won't service Queens Plaza.
They better still use the 6th ave dash!
That will not be in use as long as the D and B are terminating at 34th st. The trains are turned in the center track at 34th st. Result:
no 6th ave express service for the duration. This is the way it was last time.
Peace,
ANDEE
What will run to Bedford Pk in Rush Hours, and does that mean 2 trains B-C to 168th St?
The B would run to BPB during rush as usual.
Peace,
ANDEE
So wouldn t they turn it at 145th as they do now, rather then 168th with the C?
They do turn the B at 145th during non-rush hours. It gets extended to BPB during rush.
Peace,
ANDEE
Now they do, I was talking about the new bridge changes, when someone posted that the B will go to 168th.
There's no truth to that.
Peace,'
ANDEE
Oh no, no more dash! :-(
I would have put it as:
No dash?!?
Ooooooooohhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooooo.
34th St. was designed as a turnback station, what with all the scissor switches between it and 42nd St, including TWO sets between the express tracks. I can vaguely remember seeing an F train switch between the center tracks once when it still terminated at 34th St. before Chrystie St.
[no 6th ave express service for the duration]
Perhaps if the tunnels south of 34th St aren't used for this duration, maybe the TA will wisely replace the tunnel ights with the compact florescents.
Bill "Newkirk"
The lighting in the dash is almost "nonexistant". Looking out the rear window of a Q train, one can see only darkness in the tunnels.
Not a place you'd want to walk through if you had to evacuate a train that got stuck in the dash.
They really need to put in new lighting down there. On the other hand, the Broadway line looks nice and bright with all those new compact flourescents.
The G train turns at 4Avenue. Are there switches at 7Av??
3TM
Will there be any Express Service on the Brighton, or will Q be a local 24/7?
Welcome back, Brighton Exp. Bob. You missed the earlier posts in which the plan was detailed: circle Q will be the Brighton local and diamond Q will be the Brighton Express. Pretty dumb idea.
--Harry
How about QB and QT, most people don t pay attention to circle or diamond, or don t know what it means.What will be the hours of the QB, I assume the QT will be 24/7
Turning the clock back to 1965, no? The TA has gone to using single letters, exclusively. In my view, the designation for the Astoria-Broadway-West End should be T, like in 1965. But the TA is proposing to call this service W. I think that the W should be used for the Brighton local.
Both Q services will run express along Broadway and use the bridge, so the QT moniker wouldn't serve its original intended purpose. The local will run to Coney Usland 24/7 while the express will presumably keep the same hours the present Q does.
Yes but the should have different designators, say the Exp as QX, or something like that
I guess there will be a Q and a diamond Q.
That is correct.
Why is this a dumb idea? It works with the 6 & 7 lines, and people know what it means.
--Mark
Those are 3 track lines with express in only one direction and has been in force for years. This proposal is for a four track line with express in both directions and is totally new for Brighton riders, and furthermore, will be in place for only 4 years.
4 years is a long time. People will get used to the diamond Q for the express and the sicle Q for the local. Remember that people learned how to interpret the marker lights before there were front rollsigns, so I don't think this'll be a hard transition to make.
--Mark
Question:
Do the R68's (I'm assuming they will provide base service for the Q line) have both circle and diamond signs? I don't think the 68's do. The 68A's do, IIRC.
The R68 only has yellow diamond signs for the Q.
The R68A definitely has yellow and orange Q's and may have a diamond yellow Q as well.
Only the first 8 R-68A's have the diamond Q, so the express will be confined to R-68's and these two R-68 sets when they are together. It will be a very unreliable system as many of the signs have been changed with the newer ones with the circle designations. Plus, if they need to run cars of another class there on occasion as they often do on various lines. Once again, they really should just get new signs with , and thus free up for the Brighton.
No big deal. Either they install new signs, create stickers to place over a symbol that the R68 car doesn't use(such as J or M) or just place the new symbol within the current sign and "stitch" it on.
Having the Q diamond and the Q circle wouldn't be so big a deal. One is on the express track, and one is on the local. Any moron can see that. But, that sticker idea is pretty good. Just like what they did 2via 7th av.|5 via lex.
>Having the Q diamond and the Q circle wouldn't be so big a deal. One is on the express track, and one is on the local. Any moron can see that.
But in Manhattan, where both run on the express track, if you get on car 2755, running in a train on the express ♦Q♦, both signs have replacements which only have the round (Q), so the people in that car could only go by announcements, and on the outside, they would see both circles and diamonds on the same train. Yeah, to us train enthusiasts, we would bother to discern which it really was, but the average person just gets totally confused. I know, because I have a wife who is almost the oposite of a train enthusiast. She sees a D in Union Square and asks if that's going uptown. (One reason I am afraid they will wind up going back to that old method, when they realize the circle/diamond arrangement won't work. So we should continue to push for new signs, stickers, addons, whatever!
Somehow it works on 6 :-)
Arti
Because it is consistent. All the signs have both the diamond and the circle, plus many newer signs have "express" or "local" printed on the bottom of the local.
Plus, Pelham riders always had that setup, but Brighton riders are used to two different lines, so they shouldn't go backwards to an outmoded method designation when the goal is to make the system more clear. In fact, they were thinking of changing the express to .
How hard would it be to paste a yellow cicle T over a J or L on the R68s or R68As? If they did it on Redbirds during the Lenox Avenue shutdown, then they can do it now.
Run the W over the Bridge, Use the QB for Bridge, Run the Local as QT thru the Tunnel, 2 expresses QB-W 3 Locals N-R-QT. When the Brighton Exp is not running, run the Local in Brooklyn then Via Bridge, and Exp in Manhatten. Like they did before 67, Or make Sea Beach Fred Happy, Run the N Exp when it is a Exp in Bklyn, 3 EXP on Bdwy and 1-2 Locals
Either The F or V will run via 53rd, that is a well used line, i us eit all the time
How about using one of the Nassau st Loop[J/M/Z] lines as the Brighton local?
They tried that once with the QJ. Many people still got off at Atlantic Ave. or DeKalb and changed to a midtown-bound train.
Observing the Yankee R-142 train in operation, I have discovered that the Yankee/Mets Team Logos are missing from 6315 and in part from 6314. The train passed several moments ago and 6315 now wears MTA Logos once again. Is it time for the Subway Series Theme to vanish?
-Stef
Maybe some people have been stealing their favorite team's logo :) How hard are those things to peal off? They should get rid of the team logos and subway series print. I kinda like the look of a pin stripped R142 :) They should give all of them the pin stripe wrap :)
Shawn
The same goes for the #7 train. One of the cars ( I don't recall the number ) was missing the logo's also. Perhaps that car went for maintenance since it went out of service the day before Thankgiving with a stuck door in the open position.
[How hard are those things to peal off?]
With the current temp. you'll rip them if you try and peal them off.
(I see what happens when they are changing wraps at thei depot)
BTW, A big HI to Paul !
Mr t__:^)
Why did they wrap them and not just paint them in the team colours? Railroads come out with specially painted locomotives all the times. Remember the bi-centennial locomotives or the more recent Operation Lifesaver re-paints.
Remember the bi-centennial locomotives...
I have some slides of 4800 in its hideous bicentennial paint scheme.
I have pics of 4800 in Conrail Blue. IMHO it looked much better. Too bad that as soon as I really began to appriciate Conrail Blue it got bought out.
If they were to do it again today, they'd probably use a wrap for anything that's smooth-sided. It's cheaper, you only have to repaint once (after the wrap is removed)
-Hank
Railroads do "do it" today. I can't give you any specific examples, but every month several specially painted locomotives are released in the US. I think the TA reason is the paint shoppe is closed.
[. I think the TA reason is the paint shoppe is closed. ]
The paint shop in Coney Island isn't closed. Since there are few if any subway cars to be painted, an occasional flat car or other type of work equipment gets painted as seen on a recent SubTalk tour.
Bill "Newkirk"
You mean open the paint shop??
That was cut for budget reasons Ibelieve
How do the Redbirds stay red? Who will put that Red and Black striping on the R-142's?
Next July 4th, the country will be 225 years old, most likely someone will come out with a Special Paint Job, and maybe a New Freedom Train like the did 25 and 50 years ago. Of course new postage stamps etc.
I think so. I also think that the frosted tilt-in windows on the SST on the #7 line should go too. Car 9330 is substituting for 9326 so it would be best to put the subway series thing to sleep. Here's an idea, put advertising wraps on the outside of the subway cars like they do on buses. There's a way for NYCT to get some extra cash.
I will take this back when I see Yankee pinstripes on the 7 line, and the word "Champs" is added where it says "2000 Subway Series."
Here's an idea, put advertising wraps on the outside of the subway cars like they do on buses. There's a way for NYCT to get some extra cash.
Truly you're not serious. Portland Oregon does this with their MAX cars and it's probalby the only thing that's not to like about their system. The KOIN news wraps cover the whole car - Jeff Gianola is about 20 feet wide. And in wrapping the car you get that fuzzy stuff on the window so you can still see outside but not as good. I for 1 am thankful the MTA respects its riders enough not to subject them to that.
Hong Kong and Amsterdam do that with their trams, as well as Melbourne Australia, and probably some other places, and they look good.
We-helll. Somebody's a sore winner!
Nothing wrong with celebrating BOTH NY teams.
:)Andrew
I ware my "Subway Series" Mets/Yankee hat every day, thank you very much !
Mr t__:^)
CHOOSE ONE ...........
1) Only in New York !
2) Sacrilidge, isn't anything sacred ?
3) Check E-Bay !
4) Another college scavenger hunt prank.
5) The TA removed them because they were cutting down aerodynamics.
6) Not enough crazy glue on logo
7) Eaten by hungry subway rats who are partial to Major League Baseball.
Bill "Newkirk"
What?!?! Oy vey!!! Are you okay kind gentlman (quite amused I might add)?
-Stef
To David Pirmann or other responsible officials:
1. Is nycsubway.org an IRS-501-c-3 tax-exempt org? Can people donate funds to help maintain or enhance services here, buy new server software, reduce loading times (can be long) or otherwise be helpful? Do you lease server space or operate your own?
2. I want to take the opportunity to thank you for operating this great website! I've enjoyed posting and reading here, have learned a lot, and I'm sure others join me in expressing our appreciation.
I would like to wish my fellow posters of all denominations a happy holiday season (Ramadan started yesterday, I believe).
> 1. Is nycsubway.org an IRS-501-c-3 tax-exempt org?
No
> Do you lease server space or operate your own?
Operate my own server colocated at an ISP in south NJ. I get a "deal". It's not free but lets look at an alternative:
The site takes up around 2 gig of disk space for the content, and requires approximately 75 GB transfer "bandwidth" a month. Panix.com, a respected NYC ISP, would charge as follows: $35/month base (25 mb disk storage, 2 gb transfer). 50 mb chunks of disk space @ $10/month, we require around 40 "chunks", total $390/month. Transfers in excess of 2 gb/month, 8 cents / mb. Which means, 1 gig costs $81, 70 gigs would cost $5760/month. This site is well, well into "corporate" hosting rates. Panix' pricing I think is a little on the extreme side but you get the picture.
That being said, if you know an ISP in the NJ/NYC area willing to colocate a machine at the end of a T1 or greater, for a flat rate of around $2000/year (no extras for bandwidth usage), PLEASE let me know.
> Can people donate funds
Would it make a difference in the overall picture? Not really. Why not donate time to create new content instead?
Or, if you have buddies at an ISP in the NYC area, talk to them. I have a 2nd server all ready to go which could load-balance the site.
I work for an ISP. I'll see what kinda of deal I can get. I try to beat that $2000/year that you're looking for.
Shawn
Can someone tell me how long the train operator's list will be in effect since there are 7500 people on the list. I'm also in that list.
I am on the list myself. I am #740. According to the Chief a few weeks ago, "the city will hire from the list for one to four years".
Have you been called down to the learning center at PS 248 for the TRAIN OPERATOR SELECTION SURVEY exam? I would like to know what this exam is. Even thought I scored high on the test, and rank in the upper tenth percentile, and doubt that anyone under list #500 will hear more from the city until May or later.
They're giving this "survey" to weed out the new workers coming off the street. The TA to my knowledge never had a survey before this.
BY LAW the list is in force for ONE YEAR, DCAS and/or the TA can extend the list each year for a max of FOUR YEARS if they do not call everyone from the list.
They will only annoucement the extension at the anniversery.
Remember not everyone that is called shows up, YOU have to tell DCAS if you change your address.
http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=9351
According to NY1, a supervisor will receive the blame for not inspecting the site properly, prior to the accident.
This reminds me of a someone who was chatting to a T/O on a 1 train who I assume is a switch inspector while I was doing some railfanning. He was saying that he had a number of switches to be examined in a short time and that he would never get to inspect them all. I assume that switch inspection is something regularly done. Maybe the next derailment will be on the 1 line, you never know.
Also, what keeps these people from saying that they have inspected a switch if they really havent'? Hmm...
Shawn
What?! I thought the culprit was heypaul having thrown his banana peel onto the trackbed!
BMTman
Even though it did not play any cause to the accident, it is shocking that the T/O tested positive for a controlled substance
Shocking? Why? In such a large population, there are bound to be a few now and then. It was just his bad luck that he drove a train over a defective switch.
Even though it did not play any cause to the accident, it is shocking that the T/O tested positive for a controlled substance
There are many components of over-the-counter and prescription cold and pain medications that can give false positives for cocaine and opiates. Once the initial positive result is obtained, more elaborate testing is necessary to determine whether the samples actually contain controlled substances.
72st / B'wy 1-2-3-9. It's an express stop! It will get one after the rehab, I think.
86st / Lex. Another express stop, 68th and 96th both have crossovers, yet are local stops!
Van Wyck Blvd / Briarwood. If you miss the last Jamaica bound local E (7:40 AM), you must go to Supthin, cross over, go back to Union TPK, and crossover again. A simple fare control re-alignment should do the trick. Before the police station, the mezz. used to be longer, with a crossover south of the tunnel to Queens Blvd.
There's no good place for a mezz or other cross over at 86th & Lex. The local is right up under the street and the express is directly underneath the local. While they could dig a "crossunder" under the express, I can't see mant people using it.
The tunnel under Queens Blvd from the south to the north side at Van Wyck Blvd was closed recently. Big mistake, since 95% of the patrons of this station use it. The "main" entrance is adjacent to the cemetery (they're already underground), the south side entrance is nowhere near anything, if it wasn't for the Q20 and 44 stopping nearby it would be useless. All the neighborhood residents used the north side entrance, because all the homes are in that direction. Oh yeah, and there's my school with about 1400 students located 1 block from the entrance, 1000 of which use the subway. Between 7:30 and 8:30 AM, and especially after 2PM (for some 1:15), a sea of kids can be seen crossing Queens Blvd, traffic lights be damned. Have some foresight, MTA!
Yeah. I know. I use this station on Monday and Tuesday (when alt-side parking makes use of 179th St. difficult.) Suckaroo!
:)Andrew
Found out the hard way today, while walking from the F to get the Q44 to Flushing. What a pain! Crossing Queens Blvd is no easy task, especially when cars are honking at you. This just goes to show you pedestrians don't count for s*** in NYC. I'm sick of cars getting so much damn respect. What are they doing to the north entrance? It looked fine to me. Sounds like somebody wants to get paid.
This station has some of the most unusual placements of exits and entrances of any in the system. Most people think the IND line stays under Queens Boulevard all the way to Hillside Avenue, when in fact it bends due south along Van Wyck Boulevard (not an Expressway until 1952), then due east on Hillside.
When the line was built in the thirties, it was assumed there would be an southern extension down Van Wyck to then-proposed Idlewild- later JFK- Airport. This was when Robert Moses was at the peak of this powers and was hellbent on keeping mass transit off the ROWs of any of his present or future highway projects.
This is why the station is actually under the expressway, necessitating the long entrance tunnel to Queens Boulevard and Main Street to serve the growing (thanks to the subway expansion) Briarwood area. The 'main entrance' onto the service road next to the cemetery is in deference to a small residential area west of the expressway and north of Hillside Avenue.
The 205th Street terminal of the 'D' also has far-flung exits: the main one to Bainbridge and 206th, and an easterly one to Perry and 205th. To get between these two points on the street requires walking the long way around several blocks and down a steep hill.
Of course, NONE of this explains why the exit onto the north/east side of Queens Boulevard has been closed off. This was a great place to park Mondays through Wednesdays, but not as long as this is the case. The tremendous exiting volume of people in the morning (Archbishop Molloy High School) and evening is being tremendously inconvenienced for no clear reason.
It has been seven years since the New York Transit Museum hosted a tag sale and auction of transit property, memorabilia, and minutiae. From 1993 I remember purchasing a Keene bus farebox with stand ($50.00 with no shortage of takers. By the way, I've tested it, and it holds about $2,000.00 in assorted coins); a subway booth coin counter ($20.00, and it still works); and from an earlier such sale I remember purchasing for $5.00 a triangular subway strap, which was sold at the '93 auction for $20.00 -- again with no shortage of takers. There were also rattan benches, uniforms and wool "reefer" coats, porcelain "Spitting" IRT signs and other choice items up for sale at quite reasonable rates.
Now, with the Silver Fox (aka Redbird) cars being retired en masse, there should be reason for another such tag sale and auction -- of whole subway cars (to allow museums and private individuals to get their chance to own a bit of history), straps, rollsigns, porcelain serial number signs, benches, third-rail shoes, and anything else associated with these fine subway cars, as well as to give the TA a chance to clear its closets to the subway-enamored public.
The last two sales (in '91 and '93) were well publicized, and lines to attend these sales stretched around two corners onto Livingston St from Schermerhorn St, while netting the TA (and the Museum) a seemingly decent hunk of change. So why has there not been a similar sale since?
I have spoken to the Museum on several occasions, and they basically said they LOST money on these sales (Of course - the subway car auction lot was of a yellow-painted decrepit R-22 work car; the automobile auction lot was a past-its-prime GMC suburban, and the bus auction lot was a stripped, neglected 5000 series GMC/Blitz rebuild without a farebox or other authentic touches). They conceded that they may have lost money, but have become quite a bit more sophisticated in their methods of selling such property to maybe allow them to net a few dollars the next time they did such a sale, but that time, alas, never came.
Is there some way we, as subway and transit enthusiasts, could use our collective power to goad the MTA into holding another such sale in the near future, maybe to include items from all its arms such as the LIRR, Metro North and LI Bus? Surely I could see us spending at least three or four bills on such merchandise, with a whole region of the general public spending an average of $20.00 each. Hold the sale in some wide-open area -- the Shea Stadium parking lot, or Floyd Bennett Field, or some city-owned parcel so no rent need be paid -- and let the masses come, and spend. They have in the past, and they surely will now.
Will such an idea "fly?" Why or why not?
there is a tag sale planned, but i hear from the raisin vine that they are having trouble deciding whether to sell parts from the redbirds or the r-142's...
The MTA Website has a section for surplus material sales, and a section for collectibles. So, you might say that they're constantly running sales, albeit on a small scale. When a lot of redbirds have been scrapped, straps and other car parts might become available in the Museum (according to the Museum). We'll just have to wait and see. As far as your idea about a "big" sale, I think it's a viable idea. The city runs auctions regularly of obsolete equipment and such. I have several old NYPD radios from such sales. The MTA might do the same.
Marc
The city does auction off Fire Trucks, Garbage Trucks and the like. The big lot near the Brooklyn Navy Yard (Kent Ave) has them there. A friend of a friend bought a fire engine once.
Maybe try writing the Transit Museum. if enough people show a demand, maybe a tag sale will return.
New York City Transit
Transit Museum
130 Livingston St. 9th Floor Box E
Brooklyn,NY 11201
Bill "Newkirk"
I bid on the ride on the track geometry car in 1993, and no one counterbid me, so I got to "work on the RR" for a day.
I think the reason why there hasn't been a subsequent tag sale is that it is a great deal of work for what appears to be a meager payoff. It may not be worth their while to make that kind of investment in time. However, 7 years have passed, and there seems to be more interest in this type of thing, so perhaps if enough of us write the Transit Museum,. they might reconsider. Or at least, start making the "true railfan" type of stuff more available than they have in the past.
--Mark
I got on a 11:20am train out of Great Neck today, and sat in the front car. There was a lady dressed in plain clothes, with a LIRR locomotive engineer jacket, instructing the engineer.
It was a pretty fast trip, the guy really sped through Sunnyside, perhaps because we were running late and a main line train had to wait for us to go first.
Once we got into the tunnel after a few minutes there was alot of bell ringing. Since the engineer was new, he had to know where the speeds went down, and the lady in the engineer jacket (the instructor) was explaining where the ASC speeds decrease, after several major signals before Penn station. I notice most of the engineers have their hand above the black "agnowledge" button, since that needs to be pressed when you exceed ASC and the bell goes off. She told the guy "slow down" when he approached the 15mph limit.
When we got into Penn I asked the lady in the L.E. jacket about the ASC. She didn't give me an exact answer on how long it takes for a BIE when the train exceeds ASC, she more or less said "one must respond immediately, slow down and agnowledge".
Pretty much what I thought.
I walked on over to the 34th street IND station. This was abit after 12 noon. While waiting for a downtown express, a train sounding like it was going way too fast for an F approached on the local track. It looked like older IRT division cars painted in yellow, and they really flew through the station, horn and all. Those work trains can really fly!
I had B's and D's on 6th ave express, and there were water leaks all over. The water was particularly bad in the last car of a southbound "B" in the afternoon, it was all over the seats in the front part of the car.
The ride to Queens (around 4pm) on an F was packed, to say the least.
I got a seat because I got it at Bway-Lafeyette, but by W4th they were all taken with standees. At 34th a crowd of people were waiting, and it took a few minutes to get the doors closed. An uptown D across the platform was having problems getting the doors closed too.
The F was really packed by Lex, worse than usual. Took a few more minutes to get the doors closed, one guy even FORCED the doors open by sticking his fingers in them as they close.
It was fast, smooth ride in Queens otherwise. Got off at Briarwood-Van Wick, and walked on over to Queens Blvd. The north entrance was closed (really annoying), and I had to cross Queens Blvd, and just make a Q44 to Flushing. Again, packed.
Must be because of the holidays, usually it isn't quite as bad at that time.
Hey, its a vertical railroad, not exactly OT.
Today, for the first time ever, I visited the 'Top of the World' observation floor, and noticed some strange things...
1. We also had to go down the escalator to the main entrance to get on. We also had to change at the 78th floor skylobby. Isn't there a direct elevator?
2. The elevator from 1-78 seemed a tad slower than I remembered from when I accompanied my dad on a trip to an office somewhere up in the 80s a few years ago.
3. The elevator music is exactly the same as that in the mall. Odd...
4. There's a Sbarro's at the top, with a 1997 subway map. It cost me $6.79 for a slice and a drink! There's also a Nathans (closed?).
5. There were no lines anywhere, and on the way down I was the only one in the elevator from 107-78 (except the operator). The roof was near empty, only 6 other people.
All in all, not bad for $11 and an hour of my time.
When I visited the top of the World Trade Center a couple years ago, we took a single elevator from the second floor to the observatory. It was an unusually large elevator, almost like a service elevator that was dressed up a bit for the masses. If you had to transfer at a skylobby, it soulds almost like you were using the standard elevators used by building tenants. Was it an express elevator from 78 to the observatory, or were there buttons for intermediate floors? My hypothesis is that the observatory's direct elevator was out of service either due to maintenance or because of so few people visiting the observatory at that time.
The Empire State Building, as I recall, requires at least two (possibly three) elevator rides to get to the lower observatory. The observatories of Chicago's John Hancock Center and Boston's John Hancock Tower each have at least one dedicated express elevator. (Insider's tip for visiting the top of Chicago's John Hancock Center: Skip the observatory and head for the Signature Lounge on 96. The money you save on admission could be much better spent on a nice drink, the view is the same, and you won't be surrounded by as many obnoxious tourists.)
In the Sears Tower, where I work, the Skydeck has its own dedicated entrance on Jackson Boulevard, with two dedicated express elevators to the observatory on 104. An additonal set of revolving doors on the downstairs exhibit level prevents stack pressures from turning the elevator shafts into high-velocity wind tunnels. (We have a large Sbarro's too, but it's on Lower Level I.)
For Sears Tower tenants such as myself, two banks of eight double-deck express elevators serve skylobbies on 33-34 and 66-67. I work on 54, so I take an express to 33, an escalator up to 34, and then a local to 54. It's fascinating how the building's internal transit system resembles a subway system turned up on end.
You happen to hit upon a favorite topic of mine... My passion for transit is exceeded only by my passion for skyscrapers. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I was listening to car talk and they were talking about how the best suites were on the top floors, but it takes the longest to get there via elevator. They sugested that elevators go express all the way to the top floor first, then work downward from where.
My short answer: These people are idiots.
My long answer: Let's say the express elevators that serve the 66th-67th floor skylobby of the Sears Tower were extended to the 103rd floor (the top office floor) so upper-floor tenants could have a slightly shorter elevator ride:
8 elevator shafts at about 100 square feet each = 800 square feet per floor, multiplied by the additional 36 floors. That gives us 28,800 square feet of formerly rentable office space which is now occupied by elevator shafts which generate no rent for the building's owners. Let's assume that, with current real estate markets, office space in the building goes for about $30 a square foot (a fairly conservative number).
In summary: That means the building's owners are losing about $864,000 each month in rent just so people on the upper floors will be spared the burden of having to spend a few extra seconds in the elevator.
Meanwhile, 68th floor tenants must now go all the way up to 103 before catching a local elevator down to 68. That's like having to taking the #3 train to New Lots Avenue to get from Times Square to Penn Station.
Good thing the Car Talk people know more about cars than they do about real estate.
-- David
Chicago, IL
THey never said anything about extending elevators. It was just an observation that the most expensive floors get the worst elevator service. A more fair (unfair to the rest of us) system would have the top floor get elevator priority.
You still don't get it. By having fewer elevators on the higher floors, they increase floor space that is now rentable.
The Chase Plaza building has four elevator banks, and 60 floors. One bank ends at 30, one at 40, one at 50, and the last goes all the way up. Each bank serves 20 floors, except the 60 bank, which has 1/2 of its elevators serve all floors, and the other 1/2 serves 40-60, and the 30 bank, which serves 3-30. As each bank ends, two floors above you now have 6 elevators worth of floor space that is now rentable.
Skylobbies serve a similar purpose, larger elevators serve lower floors and skylobbies, and smaller elevators serve higher floors. The larger elevator space is now rentable on the higher floors.
-Hank
Please show me where I said that all elevators need to be built to service the upper floors. My only point is if I paid top dollar for my pent house floor I would want whatever elevator that went to the top floor to by-pass all lower floors it might stop at and stop at the top first. I don't know how the pricing sturcture goes, but in theory those that pay more should get priority elevator service.
Do you know at what point office buildings start getting banked elevators? I would think that most smaller buildings would have just a single set of elevators.
The building I work in is 28 floors, two banks of 6 elevators serving 14 each, no skylobby. It always strikes me when I walk past 1 Chase Plaza that it's mostly central core. It seems like the usable floor space on the lower half of the building must be pretty small.
Okay, so I haven't been in every one, but I have yet to see a building in Seattle or Tacoma with a skylobby. Most skyscrapers here are either built adjacent to or on top of parkiong garages. So there's one bank that goes from the street-level lobby to all the garage floors. Then there's a few other banks that go from the bottom to top floors. For instance, the 520 Pike building has a 1-12 elevator bank, a 13-23 elevator bank, and a 24-32 bank (the building maxes out at 32). If you want to go from an upper floor to a lower floor you must go down to the lobby and then transfer back. In a subway metaphor, it would be like having a local from So. Ferry to 34th, an express from So. Ferry to 42nd that then hits every stop between there and 125th, and then an express that first stops at 135th and then hits every local to the bronx. Want to go from the bronx to 59th? You have to ride all the way to South Ferry and then go back up. It would seem to me elevator designers should take some cues from rapid transit........
Well, they do, it just depends on the building. I think the problem is a matter of definition. In the World Trade Center, in order to reach certain floors you need to go up to the 'skylobby' first. One of the reasons for this is that they can have two "local" cars sharing the same physical shaftway, separated by a few floors of machinery. In the World Financial Center buildings, each building is divided into four zones with an elevator bank serving Lobby and its zone's floors. But the zones overlap by one floor. So the zones look like:
L-2-14
L-14-28
L-28-40
L-40-52
for instance. It also has to do with the way the floor space is rented. A building with many tenants might not want people "crossing over" on a middle floor, whereas in the WFC, the Merrill Lynch North Tower is all Merrill Lynch so who cares whether people go to Lobby or use 14 to transfer.
That's probably it. It seems like having the one-floor overlap would be the way to do it, but there are no "skylobbies" in any buildings in Sea-town or Tacoma, just private floors - usually the elevator doors open right up on either a hallway (if mroe than one company occupies that floor) or a reception desk (if that floor is rented to only one company).
In the World Financial Center buildings, each building is divided into four zones with an elevator bank serving Lobby and its zone's floors. But the zones overlap by one floor.
One IBM Plaza in Chicago is that way - or at least was, when I worked there in 1978 - I worked on the 14th floor so I could take an express directly there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow, small world... I worked in that building for three years when I got my first job with an architecture firm (Perkins & Will). Except I was on 36, and we were at the top floor of our bank of elevators. The next bank began at 37, so there was no overlap at our floor. Maybe it's changed over the years; IBM no longer owns the building and I think they now only have a few offices there. Now it's mostly lawyers, with Jenner & Block as the main anchor tenant.
One IBM was the last building designed by Mies Van Der Rohe before he died, and ranks as one of my favorite buildings in the city. The attention to detail is incredible; the whole building was built like a Swiss watch, with the most incredible precision. Even the restroom tilework on each floor was carefully laid out: Every single piece of tile is a whole 1" x 1" piece -- Not one tile has been cut to fit the space. Only an architect can appreciate how difficult that is to accomplish. You never realize how imperfect every other building is until you work in a Mies-designed building for a few years.
Fortunately, One IBM has been maintained extremely well, and still looks brand-new after 30 years. Buildings built ten years ago by lesser architects can't even claim that.
-- David
Chicago, IL
IBM no longer owns the building...
I wasn't aware of that, although it doesn't surprise me. I worked for IBM from 1978 to 1994, when they eliminated my organization during one of their downsizing frenzies. I was in Chicago from September - December of '78 and then occasionally during the next year; after December '79 I didn't return to the city for 20 years. And for some semi-relevant transit content: I commuted on the Evanston Express from Howard Street (we lived at 7600 N. Greenview) to Merchandise Mart, non-stop, and we were married in Rogers Park, near the Morse station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You never did get to ride on the 4000s, then, eh? I used to see them on the Evanston Express, but never rode on them.
Not when we were living there. But I probably rode on them as a child - we were regular visitors to the Chicago area in the late '50s/early '60s. I remember riding the North Shore, especially the Electroliners, to Milwaukee many times (for some posts on the subject go back in the archives a couple of years, I've recounted some of my experiences on the 'Liners and on the Broadway Limited).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Skylobbies are only used in certain cases, usually in super-tall towers such as the Sears Tower or the WTC. The tallest building in Seattle is in the 50-60 floor range, which (no offense) is still small potatoes compared to the towers of Chicago and NYC.
The only case where a shorter building would justify a skylobby would be if the building was mixed-use, say, with offices on the lower half of the building and condominiums or hotel rooms above. Chicago's John Hancock Center, while still in the "super-tall" category, is a perfect example: the Hancock has a skylobby on the 44th floor which serves the condominium floors above. (Office floors, parking and retail space occupy the lower floors.) To get to a condo in "Big John" one enters a small private lobby from Deleware Place, then takes an express elevator to the 44th floor skylobby, and then a local elevator to whatever condo floor. This 44th floor skylobby has all the amenities of a typical large condo tower (mailboxes, party rooom, fitness center, even a grocery store and indoor swimming pool!), except that it's 44 floors above the streets of Chicago.
The Sears Tower, as I mentioned in a previous posting, has two skylobbies which divide the building into three main sections. It's almost like three 34-story buildings stacked on top of each other in terms of traffic circulation, and this has the advantage of multiple local elevators sharing the same shaft space. If all the Sears Tower's local elevators served the ground floor, the lower floors of the building would consist of nothing but elevator shafts.
Chicago's other supertall skyscraper, the Amoco Building, uses a different approach. The arrangement of staggered banks of local elevators without skylobbies is similar to that of a conventional skyscraper, except that all the elevators are double-deckers with a two-story lobby at the ground floor. When boarding the elevators from one floor of the lobby, only odd-numbered floors are accessible, and from the other lobby level, only even-numbered floors. This presents a few problems: If Joe Blow works on the 47th floor and needs to talk to his boss on 48, he has to go all the way down to the lobby and take and escalator before getting on the elevator back up. Also, if you're in the lower cab of a double-deck local elevator and somebody in the cab above you needs to get off on 63, you have to sit there and wait on 62 regardless if anybody in your cab pushed the button for 62. Double-deck elevators are most effective in express shuttle-type applications to move large numbers of people with an absolute minimum of stops.
Having local elevator zones overlap by one floor makes the most sense in corporate headquarters buildings where a single tenant occupies a lrage number of floors. Since most people in the building work for the same company, people will often travel between zones to visit other departments or co-workers and it may not be convenient to have to go all the way down to the lobby to transfer elevators. However, if the building is a speculative office building with a large number of smaller tenants, having the zones overlab by a floor makes little sense because almost everybody will be travelling to or from the main lobby and have little reason to visit floors in other zones.
Of course, buildings can change tenants over the years, and what was once a corporate headquarters can now be multi-tenant, and vice-versa. My own Sears Tower is a prime example of the former; Sears Roebuck & Company moved out to a suburban campus years ago and no longer has any connection to the Sears Tower other than the name. Likewise, a single tenant may decide to lease all the floors of a speculative office building that was designed for multi-tenant use.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The 1993 book High Rise, by Jerry Adler, which chronicled the construction of Times Square's Bertlesman Building (and which alas is now out of print), has some interesting material about skyscraper elevators. According to the author, some rather detailed psychological studies have been conducted in order to determine how long people will wait for elevators without getting impatient. At the height of the "morning rush" - yes, elevators have rush hours too - the maximum wait should not exceed 31 seconds. Twenty-four seconds is considered "excellent" and 27 seconds "good." Now that is some detail :-) Acceptable waiting periods at lunchtime can be seven seconds longer. Oddly enough, people are far less concerned about trip time once they're on the elevators, which undercuts Jersey Mike's advocacy of full-height elevators vs. banks.
Speaking of lunch, the book also mentions that lunch hour is the peak time for elevator use in Manhattan office buildings, while elsewhere in the country it's the aforementioned morning rush. The difference is attributed to Manhattan's heavy transit usage, which means that workers are less likely to arrive en masse.
As far as the use of elevator banks is concerned, the fact that a skyscraper's top floors have fewer elevators may not always be a major issue. In a single-tenant building, the top bananas are likely to be found on the upper floors, and their larger offices mean than these floors tend to be less densely populated than the lower ones.
> their larger offices mean than these floors tend to be less densely
> populated than the lower ones.
Good point- for all the companies I've worked for or know of that have trading floors, you typically find them between floors 5 and 10. In fact, Merrill Lynch's trading floors are double height, so in essense there's 8 elevators serving the high capacity trading floors 5,7,9, and the private offices and cube farms on 11 & 12. The 6,8,10th floors are more like "balconies" with some private offices.
....This presents a few problems: If Joe Blow works on the 47th floor and needs to talk to his boss on 48, he has to go all the way down to the lobby and take and escalator before getting on the elevator back up.
Not true. When I worked in the Citicorp Center (which has the double-decked elevator scheme) on the 36th floor and needed to go to a classroom on the 39th floor, I was able to go directly without having to travel to the lobby.
And I HATED having to wait in the elevator when someone else inthe other "car" needed to get off ....
--Mark
The Amoco building doesn't have staircases?!
All multi-story buildings have emergency stairwells, but in most modern high-rises these stairs are for emergency use only, with alarms that sound if somebody opens the stairwell door on any floor. Also, once you're inside the stairwell, the door will usually lock behind you and the only way out is through the ground level. On two occasions I've had to walk down the stairs from the 97th floor of Chicago's Hancock Center to the 60th floor. (It's a long story) Believe me, walking down 37 floors will turn your knees to mush!
Back to your question, If a tenant occupies more than one floor of a building, they have the option to build their own stairs connecting their floors. Of course, that's a huge expense, they need permission from the building's owners, and it raises some fire code issues. However, in many cases it's worth it if the tenant occupies no more than 3-4 floors. If a tenant occupies more floors than that, it wouldn't be worth the expense and would probably be in violation of fire codes, anyway. The company I worked for in Chicago's One IBM Plaza occupied space on the 35th and 36th floors, and we had a stair connecting our two floors.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Believe me, walking down 37 floors will turn your knees to mush!
Why can't they turn the emergency stairs into a SUPER FUN HAPPY SLIDE?
Or put in a firepole to slide down on?:-)
That's not the point.
Burns' mansion in Pennsylvania in the episode where he was a vampire had a stairway that turned into a SUPER FUN HAPPY SLIDE.
Homer was running away from demons and going up the stairs, stopped, and flipped the switch and ended up back with the demons!
I realize that staircases in office buildings are often locked, but why?
As for walking down 37 floors -- I climbed the Ithaca's Buttermilk Falls trail from lower park to upper park, about 500 feet, at a fairly rapid pace. Then, with legs of rubber, I turned around and walked right back down. No elevators there.
Those who pay more for space on an upper floor have the advantage of excellent views. The few seconds you'd save by going straight to the top floor aren't worth the trouble of having additional elevator shafts encroaching onto every floor and taking up valuable rental space. The first and foremost function of any office building is to make money for its owners, and I can assure you they want to squeeze as many rentable square feet of the building as possible. I fight that battle every day on my projects where I work, so I know what I'm talking about here.
In some rare cases tenants actually do have a private elevator directly to their high-rent upper floor either for security reasons or for pure snob appeal. But you can bet they paid through the nose for it (no developer is going to add an extra elevator shaft purely out of the goodness of his heart), and it's something that can only be added while the building is still in design stages.
In other words: Most people just deal with the extra few seconds. Your typical bank of elevators in a corporate high-rise usually serves no more than about 10-15 floors, anyway, so the extra time is small potatoes.
-- David
Chicago, IL
In order to get to the upper floors, they would have to go through the lower floors. Therefore, to provide direct street to top service, then back down, all elevator shafts would have to go all the way up. The more dedicated service you provide, the more shafts you must have because there is a code requirement for elevator space.
The building I work in (Philly) is 29 stories. It does not have a sky lobby; but two banks of elevators; eight elevators each. One elevator is a service elevator in each bank. The company I work for is on the upper floors, and the banks are split for floors 2-14 and 18-29.
Before the Y2K and ADA upgrades; each elevator bank of 8 could be switched further to being groups of 4 - level 1,18-24 and 1,18-29 or local upper. They got rid of this with the upgrades, but I am told they can now target floors such as 25 (Cafeteria) during lunch, etc.
Top first service is inefficeient. Why should I, who works on 23 have to ride to 29 first and then down? How do you call such a dedicated elevator from the lobby? Would they also get priority down service? (I press down, get on the 23rd floor, ride up to 29, then get to go all the way down?)Don't we, the majority of the building deserve better service than the people who have one suite on the top floor? The building is nicknamed after us, after all.
By any chance is this building owned by First Union, because I'm thinking of the initials.
The priority is to please tenants, not tourists. My employer's annual rent is considerably more than the annual profits from the observation deck.
[...formerly rentable office space...now occupied by elevator shafts....]
The need for elevator shafts was mitigated, at least in part, by the use of the Sky Lobbies. The "zone" system allows some shafts to be used by multiple local elevators (for example, 1-20 plus 44-54 plus 78-90), thus keeping huge amounts of space available for lease.
I've mentioned this before, but in case you don't know about it, check out Elevator World. Go through the archives, some fascinating stuff in there...
Skip the observatory and head for the Signature Lounge on 96. The money you save on admission could be much better spent on a nice drink, the view is the same, and you won't be surrounded by as many obnoxious tourists.)
You can do the same thing in the World Trade Center by going up to Windows on the World in 107 North (with the antenna). However I'm not sure if they have a casual bat as you describe. I know you can go up to use the bathroom, but you need to be dressed up. I wonder what would happen if I went up with a nice suit but no strangulation device tie (as you may already have figured out, I'm an-tie :-))
It was a semi-local elevator from 78-107, there were buttons for 99-106 as well. Until we got to 100 all the floor indicator said was ^EXP. Someone got off before 107. I think they close the tourist elevators when they block off the rat maze due to low patronship. Who goes up at 4PM on a weekday afternoon anyway? Why spend the money on the extra elevator operators where you have a few perfectly good ones doing nothing in the regular elevators?
.
Why are there elevator operators at all? I know how to push a button myself, thank you very much.
I was wondering the same thing. Isn't the WTC still owned by the Port Authority? If so, I'd guess the elevator operators are patronage hacks, just like the elevator operators that used to operate the automatic elevators in Chicago's City Hall.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I've never seen elevator operators at WTC. I think, though, that there are probably escorts (for security, mostly) in the Observation Deck elevators especially when they need to use the standard elevators not the direct one. I think it's to keep people from "wandering away" from the tour.
There are no operators on the tenant elevators. There is an attendant on the tourist elevator, mostly to direct people I suspect. The Empire State Building has an old manual operator for the observation deck elevator from 86 to 102.
-Hank
Maybe the tourist elevator is classified as an FRA railroad with its attendant* requirements.
*because either definition works is this word 2 puns in 1?
At the Empire State Building, tourists going to the observatories board an elevator on the second floor which takes them to the 80th floor. Tickets are collected there, then you board a second elevator to the 86th floor. One thing I noticed the last time I was there was the LED 7-segment readouts which replaced the long cover plates and individual floor illumination lamps. They still start counting once you pass the 66th floor; IIRC they now increment every ten floors until the 66th floor is reached.
Anyway, a single manually operated elevator, the only one in the entire building, if I'm not mistaken, takes you to the 102nd floor. Instead of showing floor numbers, it displays elevation in 25-foot increments from 1050 to 1250 feet. It's not always open, however.
Going back down, one elevator takes you from the 86th to the 79th floor, then a second elevator goes nonstop to the first floor.
I've been up there twice. Both times we took an elevator up directly to the top floor. And both times coming down, we changed at the 78th floor skylobby. There were long lines the first time I was there, and hardly any the second time. Did you go up to the roof? When I went the first time, it was around new year's and it was cold and windy as hell! Loved it. The second time was last August and it felt good up there.
My mom once worked on the 101st floor of 2WTC. When I would come with her to work when I was younger, we went the same way you described, getting off at the 101st floor. The ride was quick compared to other elevators I was on, the number clicked up every ½ second, IIRC. There was a great view of the Brooklyn Bridge, Brooklyn, and Queens.
1. We also had to go down the escalator to the main entrance to get on. We also had to change at the 78th floor skylobby. Isn't there a direct elevator?
There should be a direct elevator from the concourse level (fl 1) to the top. I know that in 1WTC(where i work) Windows on the World has a direct elevator. But, when there elevator was out of service, they took over 2 elevators, one of the expresses from 1-78 and one of the locals in out bank, going from 78-107 (106 is the resturant)
2. The elevator from 1-78 seemed a tad slower than I remembered from when I accompanied my dad on a trip to an office somewhere up in the 80s a few years ago.
They slow up the elevators in bad weather conditions. After the express elevator in 2WTC passed its stop, they slowed down all the elevators untill they could be inspected. This may also be the case.
4. There's a Sbarro's at the top, with a 1997 subway map. It cost me $6.79 for a slice and a drink! There's also a Nathans (closed?).
I know Sbarro's by the PATH Station and the E Train Station charges $4.65 for two regular slices.
The express elevators, at least to the 44th fl. skyloby at 2WTC have returned to their normal running speed. The inspection process, however, continues.
There is a special tourist elevator from the lobby to the 78th fl, but this elevator doesn't always run. We tenants HATE that, as we have to deal with mobs of tourists using OUR express elevators, getting in our way.
yeah, same shit on thursday nights now for "mambo tonight" at windows on the world. takes forever to get downstairs.
Both towers have 2 "skylobbies". One on the 44th and one on the 78th. Consider the elevators "express trains" and these floors express "stops" where you can get the "local" elevators to the floor of your choice. To get to the MSDW cafeteria on the 43rd. fl of 2WTC, you have to take the elevators up to the 44th, then proceed down an escalator.
Sorry to bring this off topic to a new off topic, but I was curious if any one else's high rises have a marked 13th floor? Most hotels and some high rises do not, but some do. I used to think it was building age that would determine it, but that does not seem to be true either.
The building I work in has a marked 13th floor. Built in 1930.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm not sure about the Sears Tower (I'll have to check), but most office buildings that I'm familiar with seem to have one. You're right that many hotels and residential buildings do not, however.
My old apartment building in Lincoln Park is a 13-story building, but they got around having a 13th floor by calling the second floor the Mezzanine, and then the floor above that is the second floor and so on. So the top floor of the building was officialy the 12th floor, even though it was really 13th.
-- David
Chicago, IL
My fiance's build just skips from 12 to 14.
-Hank
The dorm I lived in at Drexel University has a 13th floor, and yes, a student's address would be box 1313A or 1313B.
And if their surname was Munster....:-)
I grew up in a 15-story building built in (IIRC) 1928.
...10, 11, 12, 12X, 14, 15.
Apartments are 12AA, 12BB, etc.
One IBM Plaza in Chicago did not have a marked 13th floor at the time I worked there (1978). However, the floor could be accessed by a service key from the elevator; it was used for mechanical systems.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe 26 Federal Plaza is like this as well, IIRC (generators, furnace, etc). It's amazing to me how such a supposedly civilized society can be so superstitious.
Now, at 100 Centre St. (The Criminal Court building), the 13th floor is the prison holding cells for criminals appeairng in court (it and the adjoining prison used to be called "the tombs".
None of the regular elevators or stairways stop there, and you can see an entire floor with bars on the windows from the street.
One of my friends' apartment buildings has a 13 floor, and the elevator skips the number ([11],[12],[ ],[14]). I wouldn't even know 13 existed except that the 2 stairwells have double length to get from 12 to 14, and one has an unmarked door where the floor would be. On the outside there are windows where a 13th floor would be. How is this possible? The 14th floor apartments have two levels.
A high class apartment building another friend lives in has a rather interesting situation: The entrance is at C1, the lobby is the balcony above C1, followed by floors 1-12, then the penthouse.
The Hesburgh Library on the Notre Dame campus has a marked 13th floor. In fact, Fr. Hesburgh now has an office there. The funny part about it is, the library is directly north of Notre Dame Stadium; however, it was built far enough away so you can't see the playing field from the 13th floor.
I work on the 13th floor in my building, but it's known as "12A". Apparently, the prior tenant was quite superstitious and actually requested (and got) the building management to change the floor number.
If I remember correctly, there is no 13th floor in 7 World Trade Center. There is a gap between the 12th and 14th floors, which is noticeable. I believe various building systems are housed in that space.
Have any of you elevator fans heard of Simtower? It's called SimTOWER, but it's mainly an elevator management game. It used to be my favorite, but it was never updated like Sim City (they never made a Win32 version).
Basically you would build a tower a few floors at a time, and you would build up your tower to gain promotion (each promotion was denoted by a star) and with each promotion build more types of facilities. You would be able to build a regular elevator (30 floor limit) immediately, a service elevator would be available at 2 stars, to allow housekeeping to access hotel rooms on floors where there is no housekeeping room (it coincides with the ability to build hotel rooms). At 3 stars, you could build a larger express elevator with a 109 floor limit. It would stop at all basement levels and every 15 floors above, which is exactly where Skylobbies can be built (people won't transfer anywhere but a skylobby). One unrealistic feature is that up to eight elevators can be added to a shaft, and elevator shafts can be extended as the building grows (24 shaft limit). Evaluations (higher evaluation=higher rents you can get away with OR higher business at eateries) were based on time spent waiting for an elevator.
Simtower is also good for mixed use fans, it has everything, a completely built up tower would have: Condos, fast food, waited restaurants, stores, offices, elevators, hotel rooms (single AND double occupancy), hotel suites, movie theaters, medical centers, recycling centers, party halls, parking garage, security offices, lobbies, skylobbies, escalators, stairs and even a subway station (ON TOPIC!). All of this is topped off by a cathedral on the 100th floor.
I have SimTower, the only way I get 5 stars is by cheating.
Somewhere in the help file there is a description which implies that the elevator shafts are elevator banks, so each elevator is in its own shaft, you only see the one in front.
Today I attempted to build one identical in design to the World Trade Center, but the stupid 30 floor elevator limit killed my plan. Maybe I'll just leave 31-44 empty with no elevator service.
I have SimTower, the only way I get 5 stars is by cheating.
Tsk, tsk, tsk. I managed to get to Tower w/o cheating. The Wedding that's held in the Cathedral on promotion day KICKS ASS!
I took an F up from Bway-Lafeyette. At W4th a Q was across the platform, leaving at the same time. At 34th, a D was just pulling out.
6th ave express is still quicker than the local, so adding a stop at 14th street would just be plain stupid and ruin the express.
Don't ruin the dash!
Not to mention that the 6th Ave. express tracks at 14th Street are "downstairs" from the local tracks and, thus relatively inconvenient to access.
The El that the 6th Ave Subway replaced was only a two track structure. At one time, if not the present, 6th or The Avenue of the Americas was a very busy commercial street from one end to the other. When express tracks were put in to avoid "lesser" stops on other lines the placement of express stations was governed by the importance of the stop. Witness the original 42nd St and Broadway local stop of the original subway, which was a miscalculation at the time. Anyway, that is why the 8th Ave line has better express service, as the lesser stops are such. 14th St has never been considered a lesser stop on any of the subway or elevated lines that passed over it or that pass beneath it.
The original 1904 Times Square station was a GROSS miscalculation. It became so popular that a group of theater owners unsuccessfully petitioned the IRT to install crossover switches so express trains could stop there. August Belmont's concession was to have conductors announce the station as "42nd Street".
Believe it or not, the Dual Contracts IRT station at Times Square was originally proposed as a local stop as well. This time, a deal was worked out to include a mezzanine to allow passengers to change for the BMT and the shuttle, and both Times Square Dual Contracts stations ended up being express stops.
(Anyway, that is why the 8th Ave line has better express service, as the lesser stops are such. 14th St has never been considered a lesser stop on any of the subway or elevated lines that passed over it or that pass beneath it. )
Unlike the IRT and BMT, the IND is designed for express service GETTING TO the central business district, not expresses WITHIN the central business district. This is a good idea. Both 14th Street and 23rd Street could be considered express stops, especially now.
The local stops we Brooklyn F riders really wish we could bypass are Broadway-Lafayette, 2nd Avenue, Delancy, and East Broadway. But Broadway-Lafayette is the site of a potential full transfer to the #6, 2nd Avenue is the site of a theoretical transfer to the 2nd Avenue line, Delancy is the connection to Midtown for the J/M/Z, and East Broadway draws a lot of riders too.
You will have to remember also. the reason that there was no express service on the 6th Ave submway until recently, was that there was no room for the express tracks as the H&M/PATH tunnels were built to 34th St way back when the 6th Ave El was only at at midlife.
The story behind the 6th Ave. express tracks is outlined in the IND history section elsewhere on this website.
Recently? Wasn't the 6th Ave Express built in the 1960's? That's before I was born!
:)Andrew
The 6th Ave Subway was built before I was born.
However, there was no express on the line when I rode it in the 50's and 60's
It was open with Christie St in 67, that is more recent then the orignal 6th Ave was built in the 30s or the H&M(Path) inn the teens
The 6th Ave. express tracks opened at the same time the first phase of the Chrystie St. connection did; however, because the 57th St.-6th Ave. station wasn't ready yet, they were used only during rush hours by B and D trains. B trains terminated at W. 4th St. during non-rush hours except nights and Sundays, when the B didn't operate. Full-time 6th Ave. express service was implemented during the second phase of service changes on July 1, 1968. The 57th St. station opened that day, and the original KK made its debut as well. D trains ran express at all times; B trains (which began operating 24/7) during rush hours only. B trains didn't start running express all day along 6th Ave. until much later. Interestingly enough, B trains ran express along 4th Ave. during daytime hours 7 days a week right from the beginning, IIRC. Can't recall if they skipped DeKalb during rush hours back then (N trains did).
There was third phase of service changes on August 18, 1968, but these were minor. The D swapped terminals with the QB and QJ in Brooklyn, D trains terminating at Brighton Beach when running express and QB and QJ trains running all the way to Coney Island.
'67 eh. I guess I missed the Christie street opening.
62 - 66, overseas in the service.
67 was my last full year in NYC, finished school in 68, and took a job out of state.
November 26, 1967 was the big day. Mass confusion ensued the following week or more.
where would they put the station with the express surrounded by the Local at Path.
Of course adding a stop to the express would slow it down. If that were reason to skip stops, all expresses would skip all stops.
The reason for making 14th an express stop is that 14th is a transfer point to/from the L and the 1/2/3/9. As it stands, lots of 1/2/3/9 passengers walk through that long, dingy connecting passage, wait for an F, ride it one stop, and switch to the express there. Yes, adding a stop would slow down through travel slightly, but it would speed up service for transferrers immensely.
I get a wonderfully informative newsletter called Hot Times on the High Iron. It is sent out by an CNIC engineer w/ 20 years on the job, Mr. Joseph D Santucci. Over the past year he has detained almost every aspect of the daily life of a typical railroad engineer. Most of his publications are incredibly funny and others really help you to understand how hard an engineer's job is. I have decided to post a trial edition of this newsletter (the most recent one) because I think you will enjoy it and you can see what Amtrak is upagainst when they try to send their trains through on time. If you like it I can post more as I get them and even some classic issues. The author has no problem w/ crossposting as long as he is given credit. If you would like to revieve this newsletter via e-mail you can subscribe to Conrail-Talk (conrail-talk@dsop.com) or e-mail Joseph D Santucci directly at thetuch@netnitco.net I hope you enjoy it, the following is about average in quality and legnth. There are others that are a complete laugh riot. If you do not want me to continue, again please tell me in a reply.
**********************************************************************
Today is just another one of those days.
We were ordered for 1100, right on our rest on the morning of the
25th at Champaign for train 325. I rolled up into the parking lot and
observed that our train had not yet been doubled up. So that
means it won't be a quick departure.
Upon getting our paperwork, I learn that we will have the 6114 and
6203 for power today. This an SD40-2 and SD40-3 set. The 6203
is a VMV Paducah upgrade with its spotting feature of no Scotchlite
safety stripe on the front anti-climb pilot. We are also slated to
depart with 131 cars with just over 14,000 tons. There is a large
block of coal right on the tail end of the train. Nothing like a big
brick right on you hind side.
I go out and check out the power and meet up with Art Rapp, the
BofLE Local Chairman in Champaign. We discuss some union
business and the state of affairs of the CNIC this date. He tells me
that the road switcher he is working is supposed to double up part
of our train and pull it up the outbound lead. This becomes a quasi-
true statement as they tie onto the head end of our train and then
he is instructed to let me do the doubling with the assistance of his
Conductor and Brakeman. Art dropped of at the office, Charlie
boarded and I tool over ar the throttle. This saves them from having
to drive Charlie up to the head end after doubling it up. We go
about this business in normal fashion.
It is raining today. I mean really raining, none of this wimpy,
sprinkle type stuff; we're talking serious rain. I begin to use the
front wiper and discover that it is one of those intense, high speed,
500 stroke per minute types. I cannot control it or get it to operate
any slower. It is moving so fast that the wiper is leaving the glass
surface and climbing onto the front of the cab next to the window.
In short order, the wiper blade begins to bend out of shape and
then promptly snaps in two and flies onto the nose. This is not
good.
I call the Yardmaster and request an Carman with a new blade and
wiper motor for the 6114 as this one is bad order. They tell me they
cannot replace it. I inform them that I cannot and will not go without
a properly functioning wiper. A quick decision is made to swap out
our lead unit with another one from the pocket track that has been
fueled and sanded. Sounds good to me.
Now, the fun begins. After getting the two tracks from A Yard
doubled up and pulled down the outbound, we cut off at the north
end of the yard and come back to the south end of C Yard to swap
power. We left the 6203 on the train when we cut away. We also
have to make another double as well, to track 2 in C Yard. That will
come after we get the power swapped.
When we get back to the south end of C Yard, we have to
orchestrate our moves as a grain train that is recrewed here has to
swap out his power as well. We coordinate our moves with him
getting his engines and I get mine. We get the 1007, an SD70. We
head back up to the head end of our train, connect our new lead
unit to the 6203, do the required locomotive brake test and then
double the cars on the outbound lead to 2C. We arm and test
FRED's rear emergency feature, get our air test and depart at
1350.
This is one of those "lead sled" trains that is not going to get much
speed and we resign ourselves to the fact that we will not be
burning up the high iron today. We lumbered along in the high 20
to mid 30 mph range until we got it heading downhill towards
Ludlow. After getting up and over Paxton, we drop down Loda Hill
and get the train up to its 50 mph maximum speed. Trains of
13,000 tons or more are restricted to 50 mph on the CNIC. This will
be the one of only two times we ever see train speed all day.
After passing the Ludlow detector, we learn that we have two extra
cars in our train. A call to Champaign is made to attempt to find out
what they are. They will check. A second call later reveals nothing
as well.
As we approach Gilman, I have to reduce speed to 25 mph through
a temporary speed restriction over the dual control switches. They
have begun a project here to replace all the ties here under the
switches. I take a reduction of air to begin the slow down
approximately two miles from the beginning of the restriction. The
brakes begin to set and then POW! From the tail end FRED yells
out that BEEP BEEP BEEP! and the air pressure immediately
drops to zero on the control display unit. Several seconds later, the
head end goes into emergency as well. Damn, a dynamiter right on
the tail end. We come to a stop about twenty cars south of the
Route 24 road crossing. A break, we didn't have the crossing
blocked. It was a nice smooth stop though, no slcak action or
violent jolts. This should be a good sign. I report our situation to
Chicago South and the lovely Jennifer tells me to let her know what
we find. The air starts to come back up on the tail end which is a
good sign for two reasons; one, we don't have any emergency vent
valves stuck open and two, it means the train is in one piece, or
most likely anyway.
The rules in the CNIC rule book do not require us to make a
walking inspection of our train if we have two way communication,
we observe brake pipe pressure being restored, we cannot see any
obstructions from our vantage point and when we start to move, it
does not take excessive effort and amperage to start moving the
train again. Now I have 14,000 tons; what exactly would define
excessive amperage here?
When I get 75 psi of air on the tail end, I do a road brake test which
is a 20 psi application of the brakes. I observe that the air is
reducing on the CDU. I perform a leakage test to positively
ascertain if their is any excessive leakage that may have
developed that may have caused the problem. There is none, so I
release the brakes. While waiting for the brake pipe pressure to be
restored, I decide to look into another potential problem. The 1007
is equipped with a Trainlink ES Control Dispay Unit. This is one of
the latest technological wonders in railroading. This is the device
that gives an assist in setting a service brake application on the
train from the tail end and head end simultaneously. FRED is not
an ES though, and I did not even attempt to engage the system
when I did the arming and brake test. In checking the CDU, I see
that it shows the system enabled, but "No Assist" comes up as the
reading on the screen. I disengage the system and get verification
on the read out. This may or may have not been a factor, but I had
no trouble with the air the rest of the trip after I performed this act.
We are on the move again at 1525, some twenty minutes after this
all started. Everything is rolling, no excessive resistance from the
train, no weird sensations, no excessive amperage in getting
started. I didn't have the amp meter pegged at 1500 amps, so we'll
take this is a good sign.
We lumbered on along to Kankakee where we had to stop and
make a pick up. Being we were over 7300 feet long, we did not
clear up the main track when we stopped. We have to head into
the siding to pick up at Kankakee when heading north. Not only did
we not clear the main track, we also did not clear the NS (former
Conrail) Kankakee Secondary crossing, or even Chestnut Street
road crossing. We picked up 41 cars, all loads. In the meantime,
our southbound counterpart, 322 is now showing up. On it are my
buddies Redbone and Big Daddy. Mrs Big Daddy just blessed him
with their first child, hence my new nickname for him. Should we
call Mrs Big Daddy Big Mama? Could this be the railroad version of
"Cat on a Hot Tin Roof?"
As 322 approaches, I call Redbone and tell him that we don't clear,
so he should lay back of North Street so as not to have it blocked.
He has over 8500 feet of train as I heard the Manteno scanner tell
him, and there is only about 6400 feet of rail to work with between
North Street and KX, the south end of the siding and the NS
crossing.
We're now doubled back to our train and pumping air. A few
minutes later, Kenny McMullen, the Conductor on the Kankakee
Switcher calls Chicago South to tell her that he is ready to come
back from Otto and head to the Kankakee Siding with more cars to
switch. Shortly after that, the Manteno scanner greets southbound
Amtrak 391. Can you say Jackpot? I know you can.
391 is now closing up behind 322, the Kankakee Switcher is out of
Gar Creek and closing up behind us. I'm pumping like mad just to
get enough air to release the brakes so I can pull the train up to
clear up the railroad and get trains moving again. The plan is to
pull our entire train north of North Street to not only clear up KX,
but also to be off all the crossings so that we can perform the brake
test without having any road crossings blocked so as to not
possibly wind up spending an evening as a guest of the Mayor of
Bradley, IL. When I finally get enough air to release them, I start to
pull. I now have 18,106 tons of train, it is raining, and I'm sitting on
the side of a hill. This is really gonna be fun. I'm slipping and
sliding, the Super Series in kicking in, the HTCR trucks are
rumbling and vibrating. We are moving. A death defying 2 mph for
about 30 car lengths. The speedo is counting off MPH in tenths.
2.1, 2.2, 2.3 and then, 3 mph. Slowly we reach 4, 5 and more.
Steve and Kenny are creeping up behind me into the siding after
being given permission to pass the stop signal at KX from the main
to the siding. Redbone begins to creep down towards KX as well.
391 obediently follows him. Being that I'm going to have North
Street blocked for some time, there is no need 322 to lay back
anymore. Suddenly, we went from no trains moving to all four
moving at once. Ain't railroading great?
Did I mention that all of this time Charlie is out there in the rain? He
is now hanging on the side of a car to ride up until we clear, and
then walk the brake test on our pick up.
When I got up to the next crossing, Larry Powers Road, I stop to
perform the brake test. There is about 10,400 feet of room between
here and North Street, so we should have no problem fitting. I
calculated that we have about 10,000 feet of train now. Room to
spare.
With air test complete, we depart from Larry Powers Road, some
ninety minutes after we first stopped to make the pick up. Starting
the train here was about as fun and interesting as starting it at
North Street. "I think I can, I think I can......" That extra 1000
horsepower of the SD70 was a major factor. We now had 141
loads and 33 empties,
We struggle and crawl and finally get a good roll going, only to
learn that we will be at Peotone for 194. Jennifer asks if we can lay
back off any crossings, but I tell her we are past the point of no
return for that. So, I just casually lumber along at a very leisurely
pace to South Peotone. Enroute to Peotone, the Manteno scanner
tells us we have 9954 feet of train. Hmm, not bad, only missed it by
a little less than a car length. We only waited at Peotone about ten
minutes before 194 showed up and screamed by. Our turn again.
Another slow start and we're off once again to the races.
We climb out of Peotone and reach a hair raising 20 mph. As we
climb the grade into Raccoon Grove, we start to lose speed. The
rain, wet rail, overweight and under power are just killing us. Soon,
we are down to 12 mph.
We finally get up and over the grade and head onto the double
track at Stuenkel. Between Stuenkel and Harvey is the only other
location I can reach speed as this is mostly all downhill.
I contacted the Markham General Yardmaster about getting
somebody to perform a roll-by inspection for excessive height cars.
There is a high car detector at Markham, but on track 1, the one we
are on, it is only good for counting a total of 125 cars including the
engines. As we now have 174 cars, human intervention is required
to positively ascertain that will be safe to proceed. We cannot have
any car in excess of 17 feet in our train. A Car Inspector informs
me that he is in place at Harvey to watch and we keep rolling. After
we pass, he informs us that we are not high and good to go, and so
we do.
We roll on down to Clark St where Metra's Rock Island District
crosses and we have to stop for the signal. We only have to wait
ten minutes for an outbound scoot, and then it is our turn. This will
be an adventure too. The head thirty or so cars are on fairly level
track but in a series of curves. The next forty or so cars are in a
sag and a curve. The next 3000 feet or so sits on an uphill grade in
the tunnel underneath McCormick Place. The rest of the train is on
a slight downhill grade.
The rain has pretty much subsided for the moment, but everything
is still all wet. I carefully work at the throttle after releasing the train
brakes and begin to get things rolling again. It actually started a lot
easier here. Charlie figured we would have more trouble here, but I
told him it wouldn't be so bad. The rest of the trip from here would
be in the 10 and 20 mph range.
We arrived at Glenn at 2155, yard the train on three, count 'em,
three tracks, had time to get the engines back to the pit and then
went dead on the hours.
Another good one; nothing got wrecked, nobody got hurt and best
of all, nobody got fired.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, copyright 2000
Myrtle Ave on the M- according to the track maps and the line by line, the station and tracks are still there. Is the whole line still there, where the tracks branch off at Central Ave.? Why did they decide to demolish the rest of the line south of Mrytle Ave, and not the platform as well?
Structural problems, safer to leave it there. Also, they've built some things on the old platform and trackways.
In addition, the old Myrtle structure (just the structural steel, no tracks or rails) goes down to Lewis Avenue where a substation once stood. The demolition of this was deferred until a new substation could be built elsewhere and this one could be demolished. It would cost a lot of money to simplify the structure (just one set of poles with wires running between) when it was to be demolished anyway. By the time the substation was gone, they forgot to remove the rest of the structure. I guess it wasn't worth the scrap steel.
(Yesterday). I found 3 problems, here they are in order of severity:
I boarded it at Bleecker downtown, and only planned on riding until GCT, but a few things happened.
1. First, there was a door in 7261 that was closing slowly, and kept re-opening over and over because of that little feature of the 142a thought something was in the way.
The announcments were fine on the way down, but after we started moving northbound, they mysteriously went silent (no door chimes either). Since this is one of my favorite things, I changed my plan and was going to get off at 14st when...
2. At Astor Pl, I heard over the internal and external PA the familiar sound of those tones you hear over the radio. I suspected what had happened, so I decided to stay until 59st.
After GCT, everyone in the train heard all about a problem Parkchester 15:42 was having at 68st. When the doors opened at 51st, the entire platform knew as well (external PA). All the C/R could do was try to drown out the radio by pushing the chime button. When we went outside various communications from the entire Bronx IRT flooded the PA, the C/R was practically leaning on the chime button until the problem somehow fixed itself at Middletown RD. I get off at Buhre, since there is nothing more of interest, but somehow I get it again going southbound. Uneventful until...
We're getting crowded, tower reports 5 trains behind us. Told to skip 51st.
T/O reports heavy drag bet. 96st and 68st.
Train goes BIE while entering 59st, car 7264 tripper hit and damaged.
20 minutes later, they key us out, last 3 cars in tunnel, train goes OOS.
Train pulled all the way in to 59th, then is backed into "59st storage".
All U redbird enthusiasts don't dare gloat. I've seen slow doors, tripper problems, and dead motors on them as well, and earlier this month I got booted off a train of R-26s due to "mechanical difficulty".
I'm not gloating...
I'm gleaming... with pride!
Redbirds DO fly!!
No one on SubTALK woulda' known
this "shortcoming" had you kept
this tale to yourself!!
Redbirds.Inc
It was something I felt would be of interest for anyone wondering why they weren't out yesterday or today.
BTW, 2 (possibly 3) other sets are sitting in Westchester yd. Also of interest, I noticed that when the 142a was in service it was not a redbird but an R-62A trainset that was leftover in the yard during the rush.
Yesterday at GCT a heard a familiar rumbling and then bells. The SRS 403 car passed on the north bound express track. Does anyone know anything about this thing? All I can find are pictures.
Today at GCT an OOS 3 train came down the south bound express track. Some people on the platform looked rather confused :) Does anyone know what was going on with it and why it was rerouted to Lexington?
Shawn
Perhaps that 3 train went to Concourse Yard for maintenance?
It was heading downtown. Did I get south/north south mixed up?
Shawn
Probably coming out from Concourse Yard after going there for maintenance. But since I don't work in the MTA that's just my assumption.
The train was getting washed at Westchester Yard on the 6 Line, and was heading to Livonia Yard in Brooklyn. This happens from time to time.
-Stef
Today I notices something odd at the south end of Chambers street on the Nassau line. The WD signals were acutally in use. It's the first time I've ever seen them do anything although they've been there for a while.
I'm not really sure how they work or anything. I had just missed a J train there and I noticed that the WD signal on J3 was either lit or flashing as the J train cleared. Then the WD signal went off. Several minutes later the two on J1 started flashing but not the one on J3. As another J train approached the first WD signal went from blinking to solid white. The one beyond the platform was still blinking and went solid at the J train approached.
Can someone explain the behavior of the WD signals? The last time I looked on this site, I couldn't find anything about them. Also, does anyone know why they haven't been in use until now?
Shawn
The WD(called wheel detectors) control the speed of a train. If one of the signs says "WD 15", it means that the train must do 15 mph or less. If the train does over the limit, the train is automatically tripped and control center is notified of the overspeed.
If the WD signal is flashing it means that either you have'nt entered the WD area yet or if you are in the WD area, you have'nt gotten down to the required speed. The signal goes solid white when you are in compliance.
>>>Also, does anyone know why they haven't been in use until now?<<<
They just didn't turn them on until now.
One thing I found strange about the WD signals at Chambers was that only one of them was equipped with a tripper. Actaully there's two, both on the same signal, both face the train and are on opposite sides of the track.
Does this mean that if a train exceeds the speed limit it would be tripped from the middle of the train or what?
Shawn
Yes, the train could get tripped by a stop arm(s) that the train is already passing over. In some locations, the stop arms on the regular signals will come up as well. The tower operator would press the WD reset button in order to get the stop arms back down.
Sounds scary for T/O's :) Nice method of enforcing the speed limit though.
Shawn
One observation I had today was that when station time is in effect, the WD deactivates. I had a J in front of me today leaving Fulton St. The WD sign was on and the first WD mph sign 20 was lit like it should be. The automatic south of the station cleared off as well as the one in the station. The home signal was at danger. The WD in the station and the one just north of it were dark. After I made the station stop, the home signal cleared and the WD north of the station lit up steady. I thought since the switch was set in the reverse position, WD is in effect at all times whether the signals are on station time or not and also if the home signal is at danger.
Most WD's protect interlocking and the speed through them. There is one at North end of Lawarence street for that crossover but it is never on because 99% of the time there is no traffic over this cross over >G<.
A CP frieght just passed my window two hours earlier than Monday. The time was 3:30am. The train was carrying R142's numbered 6416-6420. I tried to get a picture or two but I don't think they will come out. Keep your eyes out, they're on the way to the Bronx!
These car numbers contradict was is in the Delivery notes again. I'm starting to wonder if I got the right numbers. I wish it was light out around this time :)
Shawn
There is an overpass over roads a block over in both directions. I'm going to try to intercept the next train at the overpass. From there I should get unobstructed views close up of the car numbers and get some pictures.
I think the pictures won't come out because the flash from the camera would reflect off the R142's and all I'd get is overexposures. I'm saving up for a camcorder so maybe I can video tape some of the action before it's over.
If they keep delivering them at the rate of 5 per delivery Mon, Wed, Fri that's 15 cars a week which translates to 3.7 months that they will be delivering cars. That dosen't include what's already been delivered.
Heypaul... don't pick on my math skills here :)
Shawn
If anyone is interested at all... I would be willing to do phone, pager (numeric or alpha) or e-mail notifications of R142 deliveries. I will also be posting them to SubTalk.
I have included my e-mail address in this post. Send me an e-mail with your contact information and I'll add you to my list.
Shawn
You have it right. The note on the delivery page was only for 6411-15, but now we can surely add 6416-20 to the list. My eyes and ears are peeled for those cars.
-Stef
An article about the events leading up to the Transit Museum in The Third Rail Online.
Includes some history of the Sea Beach, Steinway tunnels, C and Q-types, Transit Day at the 1965 World's Fair. Pictures, of course, including some fairly rare shots.
This is formatted in a new way, with CSS. Should look best in IE, alost as good in latest Netscape with CSS turned on. Older browsers, well....
Would be MOST GRATEFUL for feedback on article or formatting to paul@rapidtransit.com.
What is CSS?
Cascading Style Sheets :)
Shawn
CSS = Cascading Style Sheets, a way to present a nicer, more controlled graphics experience in compatible browsers.
Doesn't work with older browsers, but more and more of the more graphic sites are using it.
Paul, I skimmed thru it ... lovely photos & very extensive article.
Others here should give it a quick look to treat their eyes. I'm going to make time to go back & read the whole thing & will give you a off-line report.
Mr t__:^)
Paul, thanks for a very informative article.
And the images add a nice to the the "new look" at your site.
It's quite a bit to read in one sitting, so I took the liberty of printing it out.
BMTman
Paul,
Looks great. I really like the three column layout and the real magazine appearance (although I think you have column 3 set to 'center' justification). I've been meaning to delve deeper into style sheets for this site. My one complaint is that I hate having to resize my browser for sites that have a fixed page width. I guess when you use a multicolumn format, this is a common 'problem'.
For those who have printed it, does it come out okay? I've had people complain that pages printed from this site look strange. I have CSS on the pages mostly to do the full justification which isn't a basic HTML layout property.
-Dave
Dave,
What browser are you using? If Netscape, do you have Style Sheets checked in preferences? My IE and my Netscape 4.7 both come out decent. The "centering" of the third column occurs in my Netscape 4.7 only if the Style Sheets are OFF.
I'm going to have to delve into the code to try to see why that 3rd column is centering.
FYI, I wanted to use full justification for this. NS insisted on left-justifying individual lines in odd places, apparently where interword spacing would have been more than a certain amount. This was not a problem in IE, in which the page looked exactly as I wanted it. In deference to the many who use Netscape, I made the columns flush left, at least for this go-round.
As to printing, I formatted it so one screen page = one printed page, for those who (with the usual legal blah-blah about personal use only)wanted to print the pages to love and cherish ;-). In some cases, you may need to adjust the margins in your print preferences, or turn off the headers and/or footers that get appended to browser printouts.
--Paul
Paul,
Only pages 3,4,5, & 8 are showing the 3rd column center-justified. The rest look okay. This is under NS 4.7 (NT) with style sheets enabled.
Only pages 3,4,5, & 8 are showing the 3rd column center-justified. The rest look okay. This is under NS 4.7 (NT) with style sheets enabled.
Ahh... got it, Dave. There is a DIV align statement that is overriding the style sheet on NS, but not on IE. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction--will fix.
--Paul
Paul, I'm using Neytscape 4.7 with style sheets enabled on a Mac. the only problem I had was your em dashes - they all showed up as &emdash instead of the symbol.
I'm looking into those &mdash things.
Does this come out as an em dash on your system? —
Paul -
Excellent job (as usual). I've sent you a list of comments offline - if you'd like a volunteer proofreader next time, I'll volunteer!
The &mdash is coming through on my Mac with Netscape as the tag, no translation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, that is an emdash.
That was an interesting pic of the the 3rd Ave El Terminal stub at 129th St. I am sure that only a few people ever saw that view of (from the street) the station except for the TARS crews pulling into the car barn there.
Does Anybody know if the original plans of the 3rd Ave El included its own bridge across the Harlem River before the 2nd & 3rd Ave lines were joined. It appears that the Suburban Company, which built the Bronx extension of the El was allied with the 2nd Ave El people.
It also took some reengineering to make the 129th St Terminal at Third Avenue a thruough station for the initial joining of the two lines.
Great pictures. Fred will get a kick out of that photo of the Sea Beach line, circa 1915, I'm sure.
http://www.nypost.com/news/16911.htm
News stories always end up getting something wrong.
Every line is mentioned except the 6 which supposedly will have the fleet consisting of the new cars.
They also won't be going to the 1/9. Someone got the two Manhattan IRT Locals confused.
>>>News stories always end up getting something wrong. <<<
umm..BUT IT WAS THE post
Peace,
ANDEE
where did they get news of them going to 1/9 4 and 7 lines? they are so wrong. NY post ain't a real paper any how
>>>NY post ain't a real paper any how.<<<
You got that right. Not even fit for lining a bird cage! Sensationalistic Rag! The Daily Enquirer
Peace,
ANDEE
I know it's a rag, especially with its horrible, overtly biased election coverage. However, for a topic as straightforward as when the new subway cars will enter service, I thought they could handle it. I didn't even have to pay the quarter to read it.
[especially with its horrible, overtly biased election coverage]
And I supposed the Times and Newsday aren't equally biased in the other direction????
The Times had an Op-Ed article by Bob Dole (He was Ford's running mate in '76!) calling Gore to concede and Safire seems to call for a Gore concession with every other article.
The letters are evenly split.
They certainly are but the Times claims to be a "dignified" paper, but we get it out here in California and its liberal bias is blatant and disgusting. If the Post is a rag, then so is the Times. Rather, Brokaw and that non-American citizen, the disgusting Pete Jennings, are certain readers of that liberal scandal sheet, I reckon.
Take yer pills for cryin' out loud!!
I take my vitamins, thank you, and I still stand by what I said. If the Post can be castigated for its conservative bias, then so can the Times for its liberal bias. That is, unless you claim the Times is totally unbiased. Only a moron would say that, and since you aren't one, you certainly can see my point about the Times and agree on that point.
We're not castigating the Post for its conservative bias.
Its sensationalism is what is being castigated.
Funny when I was a kid the Post was the Liberal Paper, and the Times was the Conserative, and Reagan was a Liberal Demo.
They certainly are but the Times claims to be a "dignified" paper, but we get it out here in California and its liberal bias is blatant and disgusting. If the Post is a rag, then so is the Times. Rather, Brokaw and that non-American citizen, the disgusting Pete Jennings, are certain readers of that liberal scandal sheet, I reckon.
I find that the Daily News is the only one of the New York papers which has even the merest semblance of objectivity.
Didn't you notice that all of the legitimate networks (Fox being the laughingstock of all networks, since UPN is not a network at all), have a liberal slant?
Is that a teleconspiracy, evidence that only liberals watch TV or evidence that those who make it in one of the world's most successful businesses are liberal?
That's your opinion about Fox, not mine and not that of others. The Networks are liberal. Witness their call of Florida for Gore when he was ahead by only two percent, while Bush, ahead by 12% in Georgia, 13% in North Carolina, 6% in Virginia and 7% in Kentucky were called too close to call. If that isn't bias I don't know what is.
Because either the polls weren't closed, or there were too many unreported precincts.
The New York Post is the tri-state area's only pro-law enforcement, pro-Giuliani, and pro-Israel paper. That makes it good enough for me. That, and a good dose of Phil Mushnick in the sports section.
The Times is an Upper-West-Side Bible, which automatically puts me against it.
Newsday is an outwardly liberal (but not politically correct) paper that is more honest and proud about its slant than the Daily News (where 100 words in an article is considered a book) or the Times.
What do you all base your opinions about other papers on, huh?
Transit content :P
For those of you who may remember from past holiday seasons the model train display in the atrium at Citigroup Center: It's not coming this year. I understand the company has decided not to sponsor it.
The display is here in Chicago at the Museum of Science and Industry, and maybe you're right about the sponsorship as there's no mention of Citic...
http://www.dunhamstudios.com/Default.htm
Click on The Station at Citicorp Center
http://www.msichicago.org
David Harrison
Excellent!! I'm glad it found a new home. I had always looked forward to the display. I'd almost forgotten about it until someone reminded me yesterday. Then I was bummed, thinking it was in a warehouse getting dusty somewhere without kids being able to enjoy it this year.
The rumor is that the CEO of Citi doesn't like the "Carnival atmosphere" of Citigroup Center, and has been trying to squelch its use by "the community" so he'll have peace and quiet in his 5th floor office. Well, I guess if he's the one running the company...
Too bad .... this is usually a yearly trip for my family.
--Mark
Gee, I remember when Clarke did the first one years ago. He swore never to do it again. And then he did it again. And again. Etc.
A 9 year-old kid from Montgomery County PA. That's right, Stephen Anderson will be presented an oversized ACELA Express ticket at a news conferance today. This 4th grader IS an avid railfan and read of Eastern Rail News (where I got this story). The kid's father, an ERN contributer, wrote Amtrak President and CEO George Warrington an enthusiastic letter communicating the reasons why his train buff son should be among the first to ride the Acela Express. This gift will also kick off an Amtrak frequent railer programme, but I believe that the gift was due primarily to the letter.
Now, while I applaud the father's initiave and congratulate them both for recieving this honour, I also have to critisize Amtrak management for their handling of this situation. I also do not doubt that this little tyke is a very enthuistiac railfan, but there are many equally enthuisiastic father-son (or any other combination of parent-child) railfan teams located in the North East. People like Keystone Pete and WAMATA are busting their humps to get ACELA tickets and this kid has one fall into his lap. I believe that the correct thing for Amtrak to have done was to run some sort of conest where a parent and child could have won a trip on the first ACELA train. It could have been a free raffle done in paralell w/ ticket pruchaces or they could have been some sort of rail related project or essay contest. In any event I think that Amtrak missed out on a great oppurtunity to promote young rainfans and was very unfair to all the other little rainfans whose father's didn't know to write a letter begging for a free ride.
Well, I now have in my hot little hands 2 Acela Express tickets, which I got by calling 1-800-USA RAIL and subsequently going to the QuickTrack machine at Penn Station on my lunch hour. I first attempted booking my reservation on Amtrak.com, about 50 minutes after tickets went on sale, but the site gave me a message that the train I wanted was sold-out. That's when I thought I would have nothing to lose by giving the telephone a try.
My confidence in these tickets is not that high. Printed right on the ticket is, "Welcome Aboard Acela Express. No Partial Rfnd if used on non-Acela Express train." Amtrak is obviously hedging its bets here.
I was also unable to use my NARP 10% discount for the train, which sort of ticked me off. (I would have been able to use it on a Metroliner at that time of day.) Here you have your new flagship train, which you are trying to promote, and you're implementing restrictions on those passengers who most care about its success! :o(
Anyway, the wife and I will be travelling from NYP to WDC just before Xmas, so I will not be experiencing 150mph like I would in Rhode Island, but at least I will enjoy the comforts of the new trainsets.
I'll be first on the NYP to BOS section then, just after X-Mas. I got my spot reserved, but I won't get my ticket until I travel. I agree with Jersey Mike, Amtrak could have done a contest to figure out who got the ticket.
I've seen the outside, (took the pic a few years ago), now just waiting to see the inside.
Well if your picture the door is clearly open. Try sharpening the image a bit.
You can if you want. As Bob Levy said, time is money. I don't have the time to do that.
I have a ticket to ride the AE from Boston to NYC on Thursday evening, December 14. Maybe I can get WCBS to let me do a live report???
So you will probably be first to ride among the Subtalkers. Now, who got their ticket first? I got someone to buy me one because I didn't have phone access at 10 AM and they got it at about 10:05. What about you, Todd? Keystone Pete was about 10:45.
Truth be known, WMATAGMOAGH, I'm in Palm Springs, CA this week at a conference of the United States Weather Research Program. So I had my travel agent do it earlier today for me -- and so I don't know exactly what time it was procured.
Nice place. I didn't take the SunBus when I was there but I got a few pictures. If you take it or wish to submit photos to my web site (http://www.orenstransitpage.com/), please let me know.
Oren,
This is one of those good news/bad news business trips. It's great being where the temperature is 75, the humidity is low, the sun is bright, and there is no wind... but I'm stuck in a hotel conference room from sunup to sundown. It's a worthwhile conference, but one of the neat things about it is that I can access SubTalk from my room a few times a day! So unfortunately, I can't add any pictures from this trip.
At least I'll be riding the MBTA subway and commuter rail on Saturday when I come home...
Hey Mike I heard that the kid who got the ticket was the one blowing the whistle on your recent AMTRAK ride. You remember the one you were cursing out. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Well the article said he was a real train buff and most real train buff's won't act in such an unprofessional maner.
>>>...real train buff's won't act in such an unprofessional maner.
<<<.
Now THAT'S funny.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bordering on legal? Yes. Unprofessional? Never! :o)
Jealous? The whole thing was chance, with a bit of publicity thrown in. Daddy writes for ERN! That's why he got the ticket. As for a contest, why bother? So he got the first ticket, big fing deal. Bet the kid's never been on the NYC Subway.
-Hank
be sure to get your pictures on new years eve... there's no telling when you'll see the cars again...
How would you compare the R142's problems to the less than grand entrance of the R46's? (Massive defects & lawsuits w/ their trucks, IIRC.)
Compared to the R-142s the r-46s are beginning to look like the most successful introduction of all time.
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
And then 10 redbird trains will get an extension of their long life again.
quit ur pessimism.
I am not being pessimistic. I was going along with the thread. Also, redbirds are far superior to the R142/R142A.
Of course, the Washington DC subway has nothing to crow about. When was the last time 30% of NYC's subway cars went out of service after a snowstorm due to electrical shorts? Breda has something to answer for there.
I wasn't around for that but I believe the problem won't happen again. Also, Metro is smart in not buying snow removal equipent for a snowstorm that happens once every 50 years.
tech wise the Redbirds are way off. reliability wise, it is too early to tell. you also need to think on the passenger level, who mostly aren't railfans or transit buffs, who think redbirds are @#%$! because they are corroded they leak and they are just plainly horrid to look at. there's nothing superior about that. also if the conductors would learn how to use the controls on the R-142 properly,then the people would not think its crap either. i think the TA should get younger more fresh minded employees to work them for the old saying goes: "you can't teach an old dog new tricks"
THEN MAYBE THE MTA SHOULD DO THAT!!!
You must be in la la land because the MTA doesn't know what common sense is. Suggest that to them, and they will treat it like George W. Bush would and will probably have the whole agency read the letter before sending it to the Straphanger's Campaign for an explanation. I doubt even then they will understand what it means and it will take so long to find the employees, the R142 will be retired by then.
A bit of a stretch but still...
most conductors are on their way to retirement. new ones are coming soon. waiting list for conductors are very long. of course they will get trained to use R-142's. no common sense needed for that. also, i bet u that the R-142/142A can do a half life or more.
I can't stop the R142 from coming so I will live with it.
But the R142's have ergonomic seating! :)
Shawn.
When I ride, I hardly ever sit so it doesn't matter.
More work for the Bondo Squad.:-)
Right on the money, Heypaul!
A collector friend of mine here has been operating the MTH R-42 D Train on his layout for some time. This past weekend he got out his new add-on cars to run a six car train in my presence. We immediately noticed that the illumination in the two car add-on set was much dimmer than the original four car set which illuminates brightly.
A closer examination seems to indicate that all of the bulbs in all six cars are lit, it is just that the add-on car bulbs are much dimmer, the difference is very noticeable. It almost seems like MTH used a higher voltage bulb in the add-on car production, thus causing the reduced illumination.
Has anyone else noticed this problem or is it possible that my friend has some type of a defect in his add-on cars?
Chicago's three antique cars, The Cincinnati steels 4271/4272 and South Side Rapid Transit Car #1 were moved Wednesday to the Skokie Shops to prepare for display at an upcoming open house. The move of the eighty year old/ century old equipment was flawless.
4271/4272 went southbound from Kimball Terminal, their inside home, to 61st ST yard where #1 is kept. The SB trip was "over the top" via the elevated instead of taking a joy ride through the State ST subway.
The return trip was via the "L" as expected since the wooden trailer is forbidden in the subway. No passengers were carried, except for the "working crew."
A tentative date for the open house is December 9, 2000.
David Harrison
Mike and I were about to leave Junius Street at 9:10 when -- just as we were crossing the Bay Ridge on the footbrige -- I spied a headlight in the distance at the foot of the "Y" connection. Needless to say we headed back (with the rain starting to come down) to the Junius street station.
After about another 10 mintues (waiting for the line-up) the consist came through. (Mike took down the numbers as I was too busy snapping off shots). Both SBK diesels were in the set, however they were used on the inside -- standard NYCT MOW locos were on the very ends.
We got REAL lucky simply because this was a move made within very tight time constraints. While I was walking toward Junius from New Lots Ave. I heard a horn blast from a diesel that was coming from the Bay Ridge branch. I craned my neck and was able to make out the roofline of an NY&A loco that was making it's way up into Linden WITH THE NEW 142 SET sandwiched behind another power unit (no numbers as the lighting was the pits and the distance was nearly a full city block.)
Just thought you should be aware to stick your head out the window (by now it should have passed already) and check the numbers.
A most LUCKY Wednesday...:-)
(With compiments to CanarsieShawn...)
BMTman
Confirmed! R-142s 6416-6420 arrived tonight rather late at 11:30 with the SBK locos leading the charge once again, and with 73 as well (for a second time). I wonder why they were so late? I was getting some zzz's, but awoke to the roar of a locomotive.
Thank You Canarsie Shawn for the initial report!!!
-Stef
Also.... On the same note, Loco 50, RD333 (R-14), and Loco 52, which brought up 6321-25 on Monday Night, departed tonight about 2 hours before 6416-20 arrived.
A Note of Interest: 52 is also the designated locomotive for the Snow Emergency Train that operates on the Dyre Av Line with R-62As, and Loco 51 in the winter when operating on that line becomes impossible due to the weather.
What are the chances another 142 set will arrive on Friday? Stay tuned....
-Stef
<R-62As, and Loco 51 in the winter when operating on that line becomes impossible due to the weather.>>
That sounds like that would be quite a sight to behold. Seeing subway cars pulled by a diesel. It makes the whole thing look like the commuter railroads in the outer stretches of Metro North and LIRR territory.
If there is a snow storm this year I'll be sure to walk over to the station nearby and take some pictures. I do remember back in Jan '96 after we had the Big One, I could hear the roar of the snowblower train from my house as they were trying to clear the tracks.
Stef, the SBK delivery was late because NY&A made THEIR DELVERY to Linden shops at approximately 8:00 p.m. (see my earlier post about this).
I guess NY&A was tied up with some of their other clients back east on LI and couldn't do the 142 delivery until much later.
BMTman
or NY&A got tied up before rush hour and stranded their crew during rush hour. They pay big $$$ if they interfere with Rush Hour and I've seen them layup during the big push out on the Port Jeff so they don't have to.
The cars: 6416-6420. Yes, they sure did come just when we wbout to leave. Also, there are uncofirmed reports about 7306-7310 being in a minor accident. IDK how true it is cause details are sketchy. But add 6416-6420 to the list.
Train#1926Mike
The cars: 6416-6420. Yes, they sure did come just when we were about to leave. Also, there are uncofirmed reports about 7306-7310 being in a minor accident. IDK how true it is cause details are sketchy. But add 6416-6420 to the list.
Train#1926Mike
The cars: 6416-6420. Yes, they sure did come just when we were about to leave. Also, there are unconfirmed reports about 7306-7310 being in a minor accident. IDK how true it is cause details are sketchy. But add 6416-6420 to the list.
Train#1926Mike
I was at Junius from about 7:15 to about 7:35 when I started feeling a little too uncomfortable being there. I exited Junius and started walking towards the Livonia Av L station. I had a rather disturbing run in with a person of darker complexion about my age, which involved a some running and death threats. They stopped once I got inside the station, which I though was surprising. By then I really wanted to get the hell out of there, the L came almost right away.
Let me just start by saying this... I'm not a racist. I'm tired of being made a target everytime I walk into a prodominently black neighborhood. Once see they white teenager in a black neighboorhood it's like open hunting season. I've gotten my cell phone stolen twice this year already.
Sadly, I won't be going back to Junius to watch the R142's. I'll leave it up the older or more racially qualified SubTalkers. Send me some pictures :)
So to recap my night.. I didn't get to see any R142s... I got chased by someone... and oh yeah it was raining pretty hard when I finally got back to my home turf.
Shawn.
[I was at Junius from about 7:15 to about 7:35 when I started feeling a little too uncomfortable being there. I exited Junius and started walking towards the Livonia Av L station. I had a rather disturbing run in with a person of darker complexion about my age, which involved a some running and death threats. They stopped once I got inside the station, which I though was surprising. By then I really wanted to get the hell out of there, the L came almost right away.]
Sorry to hear you had to run into some A--hole on your trip to check out the 142 deliveries. One thing you have to keep in mind -- the East New York area can still be a rough neighborhood. You should have alerted SubBus (Mike) or myself in advance that you were going to be there. We could have met up with you and that would have been the end of that. It's always safer to be in numbers. Never go to ANY neighborhood by yourself at night -- particularly one you're not familiar with.
[Sadly, I won't be going back to Junius to watch the R142's. I'll leave it up the older or more racially qualified SubTalkers. Send me some pictures :)]
Older or racially qualified? What does that mean.
[So to recap my night.. I didn't get to see any R142s... I got chased by someone... and oh yeah it was raining pretty hard when I finally got back to my home turf.]
Don't worry about the 142's, you'll get a chance to see them delivered from Linden Shops. These deliveries will continue well into the Spring, so when the weather gets better and we have more daylight I think we'll get a SubTalk crew together for a "Junius Street R-142 Lookout Party". :-)
BMTman
Ok, I admit it was lame of me to go by myself over there. I figured it couldn't be too bad. I guess I was wrong.
By older or racially qualified I meant someone who is older than I am, since I think they're less likely to try to beat up a 40 year old than a 19 year old, or someone racially qualified i.e. not white.
R142 Lookout Party sounds like fun :)
Shawn.
dude. sorry to hear. its best not to go to that area of East New York for the people there are ignorant and violent. East New York is a bad place to watch R-142's go by. i suggest you go down to Linden Blvd. where they will come in. or Come to Astoria Queens where its 101% safer than East New York. if u decide to go back to Junius, go in a big pack.
Excuse me!!!!! Im from that area of ENY and I know I am not ignorant or violent. I mean Ill get down for mines, but at the same time, I do not look for or cause any trouble. ENY has been and will be better over the years since the new homes are being built and soon there will be a mall in the area. There are still scars from the 80's and early 90's in ENY, but it is definitely on the rebound. I met you personally on the CI tour and I think that you are a very good person but dont ever come out your face like that again!! As for CanarsieShawn, I saw you on the Junius platform. Ill email you later. Sorry if anybody is offended by this rant but there is no email link here.
Train#1927Mike
I removed my name from the thread since it really doesn't have anything to do with me now, but has become a sensitive issue.
If I may add my two cents to this affair: Well Mike, at least I wasn't going mad when the SubTalkers were dumping on the Bronx. Some of these folks have been beating Coney Island to death, now they are doing the same about ENY. The people here will talk to their heart's content about how bad an area is, but perhaps they don't know some of the faces behind the computers.
I won't dispute that places like the South Bronx and ENY aren't the best places in the world, but not every person from the area is an a**hole. There really is such a thing as a good person.
There's nothing wrong with going over to Junius Street to see the 142s. In Canarsie Shawn's case, he should have joined a group rather than going on his own. If you look out of place, it might raise questions and attract pieces of crap.
I'm definately not slamming ENY in any way. It was just plain bonehead of me to go by myself. Most of my reason for my mini rant was that it was the first time I was around there and it just left me with a negative impression. I saw some nice houses right there along the Bay Ridge, well atleast they looked nice. I wouldn't ever go to the extent of calling people there ignorant or whatever. Just one wrong doing person dosen't mean that everyone in the area is ignorant or whatever.
I wouldn't mind going back to Junius if I knew someone was gonna be there with me. If I knew someone was there already I would have stayed. It was just too uncomfortable for me to be there by myself in a new territory :)
As for the South Bronx, I've been there done that too. It's not really as bad as people make it sound sometimes. I spend a lot of time in Kingsbrige (Ok I know that's not the South Bronx) and I've never had a problem there so far.
Shawn
<>
This is not really transit related, but I feel I must comment on this discussion.
In a perfect world, which we're about 200 trillion light years from ever being, you don't have to travel in groups to get to where you are going. That was true in prehistoric times and the dark ages. If you would travel alone, you risked being attacked by an animal or others.
But in an evolved and somewhat decent society, this should not be the rule. I do not believe that I should HAVE to travel with a group if I choose to visit an area in which my skin color makes me the minority.
About ten years ago, we had a few incidents in Brooklyn and Queens where black teenagers were chased, beaten, and killed by whites because they were passing through their area. The attackers should have been publicly hanged with all three networks broadcasting it for all I know. Such cowardly acts are ignorant and racist. Anyone should be able to walk anywhere whether they be black, white, green, or purple spotted. Last time I checked we are still living in a free nation.
I live in a predominantly white area of the Central Bronx. Anybody of any color can walk our streets (and they do) and there have never been any reports of bias attacks. On that belief, I feel that if I am white I should be able to walk in Bed-Sty or East New York without anybody and be left alone. I do not think that racial tolerance for everyone is too much to ask.
[dude. sorry to hear. its best not to go to that area of East New York for the people there are ignorant and violent.]
KHI, the above statement from you is quite short-sighted and thoughtless. I happen to know a SubTalker who lives in that vicinity (he already answered to this post). He's a cool guy and I meet him at the Transit Museum twice weekly on our lunch breaks.
I know that East New York has had a stigma from the worst days of the '60s', 70's and 80's, but the area is experiencing a turn-around. New housing, and the coming of the Home Depot/Target shopping mall are all indications that things are not what you make them out to be.
What occurred to CanarsieShawn could have very well happenned in any neighborhood in the city (you can run into A--holes anywhere).
You shouldn't write in generalities. Don't smear an entire neighborhood because of one incident.
BMTman
Sorry to hear that happened to you ,dog.It's a damn shame that we[meaning all of us -black or white] can't come together as people of like minds!What is there left to prove? I myself have once lived in the ENY area and I dont like it,but from a personal point of view! It was just time to move on for me! But as being a black man [who would have guessed] of mixed decent[who would have guessed that?] and a white fellow came strolling through my neck of the woods, I would've thought nothin of it! TO ME, its just like walking through Bay RIDGE or Howard BEACH or Ozone Park or Bensenhurst and Tottenville or anywhere each ethnic group choses to make theirhomes. TO ME,the ignorance behind ''PRE-JUDGE-ISM'' is just what it is[STUPID!] THE reasoning for and behind it are just that - DUMB !!! SO dude, keep your head up,cause your gonna run into a whole lot of ''STUIPID DUMB people in this life that can't see as far as the nose on their STUPID DUMB faces. peace,kame OUT!
As some of you are aware, Pigs and I will we embarking upon an all tracks NYC subway trip sometime in January. We are hoping to get some custom T shirts for the endevor, something along the line of Davis Cole's .gif images. Aside from the fact that I can't deside between a sigma, theta or omega train shirt we don;t know where to get these shirts or how much they cost. Idealy the place could take a design off of a computer file and transfer it to a shirt and the price should be under 20$ and the place should be in NYC or in Camden County NJ.
Furthermore if it turn out that we need to buy like 10-20 T-shirts min. would any of you Subtalkers buy the extras?
Funny... I don't remember giving permission for my banner designs to be used.
-- David
Chicago, IL
We aren't using you designs, just your idea of using greek letters. I don't think you can copyright that (well you probably can, but please don't go out of your way t be a jerk). The destinations etc. will be our ideas.
Mike, Tone it down ... Dave is definitely NOT a jerk.
I consider him a friend ... just too bad he had to move back to Chicago.
Mr t__:^)
I didn't call him a jerk. I said please don't be a jerk by copyrighting a greek lettered subway train route and thawarting our attempted t-shirts. He is currently not a jerk in any way whatsoever.
I don't want to start a whole discussion about intellectual property laws, but as far as I know, my Nth Ward banners (along with the rest of my website) are protected under copyright laws whether they have been officially registered or not.
But that's beside the point. What I find most objectionable isn't the fact that you plan on using the designs (I'm actually rather flattered by that), but the fact that you presume you can use the designs without even the courtesy of asking for my permission.
-- David
Chicago, IL
#1, we're not using your desings, only your concept of greek lettered trains. We will make up our own destinations and probably not use sigma. Its just like you used the concept of a black subway route sign, with a round coloured circle containing a single symbol.
#2 I thought I did ask you (sometime last year) if I could make other subway graphics w/ other greek letters and you said sure. I also remember mentioning out t-shirt idea to you in a chat at some point but I could have been mistaken.
Mike, stop arguing.
Try this: "David, would you mind if we used your idea of Greek-lettered subway routes for our t-shirt?"
My guess is he'll gladly agree. Of course, if I'm wrong, come up with a different idea. Not because of copyright law -- because of common courtesy.
David, would you mind if we used your idea of Greek-lettered subway routes for our t-shirt?
Be my guest.
(See how easy that was?)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Oh it's so nice to be nice, and I've found a lot of nice guys & gals at this site. It makes it a pleasure to come here every day & enjoy the hobby.
Mr t__:^)
Glad to be of service.
David in order to protect yourself. You have to register them with the Copyright-Patent Office, otherwise legally they are public domain, sorry old friend. Don t assume you own them if you don t . It happened to a friend of mine, and since he never registered them, he was out of luck.
I really couldn't care less about my banners, but how would I go about registering something like a website where the content is changed frequently? Dave, how did you go about setting up a copyright for nycsubway.org?
-- David
Chicago, IL
To copyright something you only need to apply a copyright symbol and a date. To TRADEMARK something you have to go down to the pattent office and give them money. The diffeance lies in what other people can use your stuff for and royalties etc. I know that if you Trademark your name you can get money from peple who use it in fictional stories and movies.
To TRADEMARK something you have to go down to the pattent office and give them money.
Eh, not quite... you can trademark anything you want by applying the TM symbol to it. A REGISTERED trademark, which does cost money, is required to use the ® symbol. (It also gives you the same benefits as registering your copyright.)
In fact, you MUST display the TM mark for one year before applying for registration if it has not yet been disputed.
--Brandon Bostian
Memphis, Tenn.
PS-Hey, I used the right HTML!
Something is automatically copyrighted if only you write it and is never in the public domain.
Now, the purpose of registration is threefold:
You can collect royalties
You have clear and unambiguous evidence of a copyright in court.
With registration, you can collect punitive damages from the defendant in court, without registration, you can only seek to get the money they made off of it (which could be nothing, which means you get squat except for legal bills).
Actually, the purpose of trademark and copyright law is to protect intellectual properties (i.e., ideas). If one were to blatantly steal another's ideas, it would indeed be a violation of these laws.
However how would you prove here that he had the idea because of David's banners or had it before?
I'm not saying that that's an excuse for not exercising common courtesy in this case, but if David Cole was a litigious character it would be a different story (I'm not saying he is).
Howdy,
However how would you prove here that he had the idea because of David's banners or had it before?
I think a printout of his previous post on SubTalk would be proof enough. :-)
But, you're right. This really isn't a legal issue, but more of a common courtesy sort of thing. In realiy, it would not be practical to take someone to court over this sort of thing.
--Brandon W. Bostian
Memphis, Tenn
Howdy, SubTalk folks,
I wanted to apologize for the improper HTML on that last post. I realized I really should have pushed the preview button about half a second after I pressed the "post" command.
It always really bugs me when someone else doesn't close their HTML tags and it messes up the format of the rest of the page. So, I'd like to apologize for my mistake.
In case anyone is interested, the reason I goofed is because I am too used to a program called Quark Xpress. It is used at some newspapers to layout pages using the computer. To make a long story short, I submit a lot of articles in ASCII format for the paper. To use italics, you use the same <I> mark to both begin and end the italics. So, I was thinking in Xpress tags and not HTML tags and thus didn't close the italics type right.
But, bottom line, very sorry folks. Will try to prevent it in the future.
--Brandon Bostian
Memphis, TN
PS-I guess it is sorta sad when the apology is longer than the original message, huh? :-)
I think a printout of his previous post on SubTalk would be proof enough. :-)
I can show a printout of an earlier discussion on another message board which discusses the exact same thing, which would show that maybe it wasn't an original idea, but I didn't get it from David's banners.
>>> the purpose of trademark and copyright law is to protect intellectual properties (i.e., ideas) <<<
Actually trademarks, patents and copyrights do not protect ideas, they protect the expression of ideas. (Now my nit picking is souding like Porkie's, but there is an important difference.)
Tom
Good Luck, I had a deal last year for T Shirts. I needed 25, and only 10 people were interested. We were going to use a IRT Low Volt, and BMT Triplex in the front ant the saying Sub Talker in the rear.
Sure.
I've seen computer programs that allow you to create your own tee-shirts. That might be the path you want to take.
--Mark
I and at least 2 other Subtalkers would need XXL shirts and that would cost extra.
Try cafepress.com.
That's where I have the Forgotten NY shirts made...
Wow, that's just what we need. Can they handle 2 different designs? We really only need 2 T-Shirts, but if other subtalkers want them I could do 1 of 2 things. Sell them At cost or donate proceedes to Mr. Dave, our exaulted leader. My goal is to get a Theata train shirt for the trip, I don't want to start a bussiness.
PS: When I sign up how can I refer you?
WOW!! What a NEATO site! That is the PERFECT thing for Dave to do also, selling SubTalk t-shirts, coffee mugs, mouse pads with all profits helping out with his server fees....First design should be the masthead from this page - of course....maybe with the www.nycsubway.org logo with the tokens across the back of the shirts.......Prices are pretty good too!
I was talking to some New Yorkers and I heard them refer to the LIRR by pronouncing the 4 letters together as a word. Like I do w/ all railroads I say the 4 letters individually as letters, L-I-R-R (or L-I-A-R as the case may be). I was wondering how youse guys refer to the LIAR.
Please do not respond with "late", messy, crowded, smelly, dirty, slow, noisy, burning or any other "funny" comment. (Unless of course it is VERY creative.
I know of several people who cut off that last R. The L-I-R.
Us Queens and LI residents often refer to it as "the train", but then that's true of any community in how residents reference their local rail line. I don't think many people have ever referred to it any other way. I mean, who's going to say the Long Island Rail Road in causal conversation?
"El Eye Double Are" (if I'm talking to a New Yorker)
-or-
Lawn Guyland Railroad (If I'm talking to a Bahstonian)
The Long Island is what we called it years ago
LOL ... Mr t__;-)
I've heard Long Island Snail Road.
Bill "Newkirk"
I've heard WRONG Island Snail Road
John J. Blair
As the four letters, as "The Long Island Rail Road," "The Long Island," or "the railroad."
Most common among commuters seems to be "the railroad," as in: "How do you get to the City?" "I take the railroad."
They might also mention a branch if they think that's what you're asking, as in: "I take the Ronk." (Ronkonkoma)
Many commuters specify a train: "the 733 Hicksville." A few trains have traditional or comical names. "The Scoot" is an O-L-D and commonly used name for the Babylon-Patchogue shuttle, or the Ronk-Greenport. I've heard regulars call the 830 Penn-Montauk (all stops, change at Jamaica) "The Silver Snail."
I've never heard it as a coined word, pronounced like "lerr," or anything else for that matter.
Paul, don't some folks particularly -- railfans -- refer to the LIRR as "The Sunrise Trail"? I think it relates to the fact that all lines head east.
BMTman
As in the Foster-Ziel book "Steel Rails to the Sunrise." But I've never heard a commuter use it.
I think that's how Sunrise Highway got its name.
That name was last heard in the '30s, I believe, except from railfans and historians.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I once heard a lady in Penn Station refer to her location as "The Amtrak." She was on the phone, "I'm down here at The Amtrak." My eye-rolling then was similar to my reaction to the large banner gracing the entrance to Penn Station reading "Penn Station 90th Anniversary 1910-2000," which I saw yesterday. (There's a couple of the banners inside on the main concourse too.) With apologies to Peter Rosa (I think it's he who has the pet peeve about those of us lamenting the loss of the real Penn Sta.), I can't believe they had the nerve to put up that banner!
the tracks and trains are still there, even though the old station is gone. Oh for the sights, sounds and smell of a Dirty GG1
When I lived in COMMACK (Co Mack, COMM MACK) it was just "the train" to us.
I've been meaning to ask you this for a while: What do you mean by "LIAR" as opposed to "LIRR"?
I've answered this question 3 times now. Last November Pigs had a new screen name about every other day (remember the "humans" series?). One on his names was LIAR to New York Pig Station. I have a tradition of whenever I hear a very creative or funny statement like that I always try to standardize the joke when I talk or write. This way me and anyone else who is in on the joke will have a little chuckle. Most of my bizzare writing querks are in fact inside jokes. I often say "youse guys". This comes from a specific event in 11th grade. Its also funny w/o knowing the inside joke attached. So, LIRR = dull and boaring and LIAR = funny/creative + its an inside joke know by whoever was on SubTalk last November.
Speaking of which, the contraction of the plural of "you will" is
youz'll....
avid
I gotta use that, thankx.
In Philly and South Jersey it's spelled "yiz'll".
I was on SubTalk last November. I must've missed the thread wit you'ns talking about it.
Don't you remember when Pigs had a new Handle just about every day? Here's the full list:
=|:-)
=|:-(
A post it note
A post it note in favor of the R-142
A/B/C/D - Central Pig West
ALMOND JOYS GOT NUTS, MOUNDS DON'T
Defy Reason on SubTalk: Countdown to DOOM begins
Defy Reason on SubTalk -10 (and -9, etc.)
Defy Reason on SubTalk is no longer
From the banks of the river stownz
Humans of Amsterdam
Humans of Columbus
Humans of Hudson
Humans of East
Humans of Further East
Humans of Royal Island
Humans III: The Hague
Humans II: The Prague
Humans: The Budapest
Humans: The Bombay Pest
Humans: The Bombay Best
Humans: The Deli Best
I won't be a post-it note for long!
I'm not a post-it note anymore!
I've been a bad post-it note
LIAR to New York-Pig Station
PATH Train Pig
Paper is Ephemeral
NOTORIOUS P.I.G.
Beyond Reason
Defy Reason
Eugenius D. Train
Eugenius D. Train of Royal Island
Eugenius V. Train
Eugenius D. Train - MVM Express
Eugenius V. Train - MVM Express
Jack Arthur
Jack Arthur aka School Bus Hater
Is this a record for most SubTalk handles ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes. By far.
Aren't you from near Harrisburg? I know people from Pittsburgh and Erie who say "yoonz".
In Harrisburg, for the plural form of you, we say "you." (Actually we sometimes say, "you guys," which does not necessarily refer only to males, but does help to establish the concept of more-than-one.) And just to stay on topic, most people in the 'burg refer to the railroad as "The Train," and don't even realize there is a whole railroad on Long Island. "Why? They have cars, don't they?"
In Perry County, they say "you'ns," which is a contraction of "you ones," which reminds me of people who are trying too hard to show off an attempt at faux intellectual specificity. There, they definitely do have cars -- well, actually, mostly pickup trucks -- and I heard folks there finally even got themselves a stoplight!
In Lebanon County, they say "yous," which does make some kind of efficient sense if you think about it. That's the way the rest of English works, right? Just add an 's'.
And speaking of strict German efficiency, in Lancaster County, some people say "Sie," which is the formal German for "you, plural," and subseqently finds its way into Pennsylvania Dutch, which is really Pennsylvania "Deutsch," if you want to get technical. There, no German would be caught dead writing such a run-on sentence. They would, however, be caught riding the train, as many of them don't drive anything but horses. They would probably appreciate a LIRR-type railroad.
Come to think of it, I've never actually spent any time in Western Pennsylvania. The Appalachians, which slice our state in half, are quite a barrier, which explains why Fort Pitt was once part of Virginia. Now, I almost think of it as part of the Midwest, which has much in common with The South, if I may be so general. As a matter of fact, I was in Columbus, Ohio this weekend, and heard a lot of "y'all's," if you can believe that.
On the other hand, a lot of my colleagues at work, who are native New Yorkers, think "The Midwest" is anything west of the Delaware (River, that is. People have actually asked, "Where's Delaware? Is that in Pennsylvania?) They grudgingly acknowledge the existence of New Jersey, which has both cars and a pretty decent railroad, but only as a means to separate their fine city from Philadelphia (where they definitely love their brothers, but not so much their neighbors).
Personally, I consider myself, when I consider it at all, a Northeasterner.
This was probably much more than you wanted to know. I now realize that I'm definitely no William Saffire (God forbid!). :o)
BTW, when it gets warmer, I'd still like to railfan with the Philly crew (would we be the "one-quarter-ton crew" or something?) in our fine Pennsylvania metropolis or elsewhere.
This was probably much more than you wanted to know.
Not at all.
I'm up for another SEPTA trip!
YOU GUYS....YOU'NS.....YOUS......YOUZ GUYS......ETC.
Hunts Hall and Leo Gorcey must be smiling down on us from Heaven !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hunts Hall and Leo Gorcey must be smiling down on us from Heaven !!
Who? Must be before my time...
its an inside joke know by whoever was on SubTalk last November.
It wasn't funny then, and it isn't funny now - annoying is more like it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> I have a tradition of whenever I hear a very creative or funny statement like that I always try to standardize the joke when I talk or write. This way me and anyone else who is in on the joke will have a little chuckle. <<<
After answering the question of why you use LIAR four times, you should get the hint that your inside joke is impeding communication, which is the primary purpose of language. It takes a strong ego to believe the rest of the world should adapt to your quirks in language rather than trying to communicate with others so they will understand the message.
Tom
All of those responses were to people who wanted to know why he used LIAR, not what it means, they already figured out it was LIRR. Therefore it wasn't impeding communication.
Because you don't know the etymology of a particular word, does that mean that communication is impeded?
The Railroad. The Train. The Long Island Railroad. Even the MTA once or twice ("It's just not like the MTA to be late like this!")
Now that I live in Queens, I call it The Railroad, as opposed to The Subway--those being my two options for a daily comute (I take the subway-much, much cheaper.)
:)Andrew
The Wrong Island.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about the "Suit-Covered Anus-Mobile?"
Seriously, though, I always refer to it as just "The Railroad" as opposed to "The Subway." Metro North, I refer to as "Metro North."
To all,
I was wondering if someone out there might know of this document (Paul Matus, maybe?)...
I recently was given a copy of a approximately 50 page document detailing (and I mean detailing) the history of car assignments on the Manhattan Els and IRT. There's no cover page, no author, no copyright statement, etc. It's typewritten, xeroxed, no page numbers. Looks like the first half was done on an electric typewriter, the 2nd half on a word processor or computer from the daisy wheel era.
The first page has the header "A Brief History of Standard Manhattan Elevated Cars". This section has a roster of the el and IRT fleet and some notes about assignments. The second section is "Chronological Roster, IRT Subway Division", with more notes on the roster and fleet assignment (It's two sections but really one topic and could have used some better editing :-)
Next section is "IRT SMEE Cars, 1948-1966", approx 20 pages of detailed fleet assignment notes.
Third section, and the one I'm most interested in, is 20 pages about the R62/R62A fleet and it's testing program.
So, does anyone know where this came from, who wrote it, etc? I'd like to use parts of it on the site.
-Dave
Wait, let me get this straight, the part you are most interested
in is the R62 stuff? :)
The IRT subway and Manhattan division stuff sounds like an
edit of something that came out of the IRT shops just prior
to city takeover. It was done in blue-line by one of the senior
shop employees.
I'm interested in the R62 section because it talks about some of the pains found when testing the cars, similar to what's going on now with the R142's. It would show the various wags and pundits here that the R62's went through the same troubles as the R142's currently experience yet the R62's are now the most reliable in the fleet.
Ah, I see. Good point, every new order has teething problems.
Still, I don't remember too many major faults with the 62/62A
orders. They both passed their 30 day tests within about 60
days. It would be interesting to see what's in there; maybe we're
all remembering those days through rose-colored glasses.
I remember a pair of stairs at the following location:
Station: 42nd street
Line: A,E,C
Direction:Downtown, Southend of station
These stairs were clearly visible, to anyone who wanted to just wanted to walk down to an old platform below the station in use. I no longer see those stairs at 42nd. Were too many homeless people just walking down, and sleeping on the abandoned platform?
Wasn't that abandoned platform also used in the movie Ghost?
Yes, that lower level platform was for some subway scene in "Ghost".
There is a contract out for removal of an escalator. This platform is officially abandoned since it was reported on the board that the switches at both ends were removed.
Bill "Newkirk
I thought the switch just north of 34th St. was still there last month. Then again, all of my A rides through there were on R-44s, so I really didn't get a decent look.
It is still there. And I think the one s. of 50th is still there as well, no? I thought I saw it clearly when the E continued straight and veered left on a later switch during a somewhat recent G.O. It may have been the imprint on an empty trackbed, though.
Don't know about the one north of 42nd. I've never been on an E train that switched to the express track at that point, although I saw E trains on the southbound express track when they used to go to Brooklyn during rush hours.
They closed the crossunder when they reconfigured the fare control area at that station.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why was that platform put there in the first place anyway? Was there supposed to be some connection made to another line at a later date?
That platform used to have the Special to Aqueduct race track leave from there. I think that regular E service may have used it at one time also but I am not sure.
Peace,
ANDEE
You are correct on both counts. Aqueduct Specials did indeed originate at the 42nd St. lower level; in fact, there used to be yellow "Entrance for Aqueduct Specials at 40th St." signs all along the mezzanine, along with an "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special" sign by the escalator at the extreme southern end. Sometimes the escalator would be running on Saturday mornings, sometimes it wouldn't be. Rush hour E trains also used the lower level during the early 1970s.
The exact purpose of the lower level is unknown. It may have been put in as a provision for some future line, but this would be hard to explain since it consists of one track and one platform. Another theory is it may have been built to block an extension of the 7, whose tracks reportedly come to a dead end on the other side of the wall.
I do beleive the lower station pltaform was to allow for a faster through put train rate. That is , trains coming from Queens could have direct access to an available platform stopping and disgharging and receieving passengers without delaying the 8th Ave Express or local and then merging express or local as needed. However....
it was inconvient for riders wishing to change trains or exit for the Port Auth. bus terminal .
There you have it sports Fans out there in T.V. land!
avid
I've heard that theory, too. It has some validity, IMHO; however, in such a scenario, you're simply moving potential delays from 42nd St. to 34th St.
Not quite. The delay at the lower level of 50th St. still has passenger waiting to detrain for the P.A or change for an express or "C" local. At the lower level of 42nd St. they can detrain or go to the upper level WHILE a "C" is on the local track and not after the "C" has left the station . Both trains could load and offload passengers at the same time. This wait time for the green signal is at least productive for the passengers.
Security and sanitation and maintainence knock it right out of the box.
avid
The stairs have been coverd over. The only access now is via a ligt up door flush with the downtown platform on the A,C,E line.
The hatch is not the only access. There is also a short door under one of the stairways. Been through it.
Peace,
ANDEE
The door is near the center of the downtown platform and is marked station department. Been through it, too.
The interesting thing about the lower level platform, for the movie "Ghost", is the stickers for 47 - 50th St on the wall interspaced with 42!
The track connection before the downgrade into the station was removed earlier this year, from previous posts on the subject.
--Mark
--Mark
The track connection before the downgrade into the station was removed earlier this year, from previous posts on the subject.
I've seen posts saying that as well. Yet every time I look out the front of a downtown E train leaving 50th, the signal and switch are still there. And 4 months ago or so, when they were doing track work in that area, they had lamps powered from the 3rd rail on the descending track. If you look down there, you can see the lights are still on and the amount of litter is about the same as on the upper track.
Given the cost of maintaining an interlocking, if this was being put out of service permanently, I'd expect the switch to be taken up.
I remember using the underpass at the northern end, back in 1968. That lower level spooked me back then; it felt as if I had stepped into a twilight zone and that Rod Serling would start his intro any second.
You can see the two yellow, metal, "cellar" doors in the middle of the platform which lead down to the lower level platform. You can also tell where some of the stairs used to be because, in some places on the platform, a rectangular configuration of the square slabs o' concrete are a slightly different color. It's also intresting to note how wide the platform is, and that the existing stairs up to the mezzanine are not centered, probably to accomodate the lanes of foot traffic between each level.
The Cynics of Subway Lore contend that a former mayor, Hylan, who had a grudge against the "private traction interests" because the BMT(BRT?) had fired him, had the lower level platform built to prevent the westward extension of the Queens IRT. There's no way to prove this, though.
It's also intresting to note how wide the platform is, and that the existing stairs up to the mezzanine are not centered, probably to accomodate the lanes of foot traffic between each level.
Ancitipating large crowds at 42nd St, the uptown and downtown platforms are built offset from each other, allowing them to be wider than "normal" and permitting that huge mezzanine to be built.
--Mark
Are you saying that anyone can just walk by this door, lift it up, and gain entrance to the lower level?
I took a look at the lower platform on the 'abandoned' page. Does anyone know if there is a big problem there with the homeless, vandalism, or other activities (drugs, sex, etc.)?
Are you saying that anyone can just walk by this door, lift it up, and gain entrance to the lower level?
No, it's locked.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For years, there was no kind of locks or fencing, just plain visible stairs, and a clear view of the lower platform, and nothing to stop people from entering. I am sure that vandalism, and the homeless were a big problem. I can only imagine what went on down there when 42nd street was still the porn and runaway capital of America.
Where can I find a list of abandoned stations?
http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/abandsta.html
I remembr vivdly the southernmost staircase to the lower level. You could plainly see a pillar down there with a "42" placard on it. At most, there was nothing more than a chain strung between the banisters. I often wondered what else was down there, but never went there - except when I used the underpass on one or two occasions. That was enough.
As I understand, the E was on the lower level at 42nd St, as it still is at 50th. What purpose did that serve to make the E seperate from the A and C. I would think it's esier to have them all together.
Also, when was this platform closed?
The last time the Lower Level was used, if I am correct they ran the Aqueduct Race Train Expresses from there,
I think the lower level at 42nd was built by the evil IND just to stop the 7 line from being extended west. That platform is at the same level as the 7. Maybe I'm just paranoid. :)
As we have discussed here before, the IND 8th Ave. lower level station is NOT at the same level as the #7. I have taken "depth measurements," and the data can be found on the Line-by-Line portion of www.nycsubway.org.
Here's a link to the depth data. The lower level of the 8th ave. station is about 15 feet below the upper level, which would make it (the lower level) approximately 15 feet ABOVE the #7.
1981, according to the Abandoned Subway Stations website. It is true that E trains have their own lower level at 50th St. They are at the same level just north of 42nd St. (they have an upgrade southbound while the 8th Ave. mainline comes downhill, much to the delight of A train fans), then there's another downgrade to the lower level at the same location as the northbound platform at 42nd St.
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