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PA says bi-state feud is over and cooperation is imminent according to an article in Sunday’s Star-Ledger covering a PA meeting last Thursday. The wish list (not yet approved) includes $1 billion for a new car fleet and signal system for PATH. The to-be-considered list includes contributing $1 billion toward cooperating with other agencies toward a new passenger rail tunnel under the Hudson River to NYP with an extension to Grand Central, a freight tunnel between Brooklyn and S.I. or Jersey City, and extending HBLR over the Bayonne Bridge to connect with SIRT.
(PA says bi-state feud is over and cooperation is imminent)
The PA assumes that NYC will once again roll over and get screwed when Giuliani is gone. Unless Mark Green is elected, don't count on it. DCP just got through writing up a mini-report follow up to the 1995 report, blasting the regional equity of the PA.
(PA says bi-state feud is over and cooperation is imminent)
The PA assumes that NYC will once again roll over and get screwed when Giuliani is gone. Unless Mark Green is elected, don't count on it. DCP just got through writing up a mini-report follow up to the 1995 report, blasting the regional equity of the PA.
NYC's shift away from traditional liberalism has a long of politicians toting up the balance sheet on what NYC pays to, and what NYC gets from, higher levels of government. It ain't pretty. Unless the Daily News goes out of business, they can expect to get their feet held to the fire on this issue.
The PA assumes that NYC will once again roll over and get screwed when Giuliani is gone. Unless Mark Green is elected, don't count on it. DCP just got through writing up a mini-report follow up to the 1995 report, blasting the regional equity of the PA.
NYC's shift away from traditional liberalism has a long of politicians toting up the balance sheet on what NYC pays to, and what NYC gets from, higher levels of government. It ain't pretty. Unless the Daily News goes out of business, they can expect to get their feet held to the fire on this issue.
A "shift away from traditional liberalism"?? In what alternative universe? NYC is among the most liberal places in the United States by nearly every possible measure. Its once-in-a-generation support of a Republican mayor - a liberal Republican, at that - doesn't change matters.
As far as the Port Authority's regional equity is concerned, my reaction is a big yawn. NYC residents have got to start thinking regionally rather than in their hick-town parochial manner.
(A "shift away from traditional liberalism"?? In what alternative universe? NYC is among the most liberal places in the United
States by nearly every possible measure. Its once-in-a-generation support of a Republican mayor - a liberal Republican, at
that - doesn't change matters. )
In the past, as long as a policy was consistent with liberal principles -- more government spending to address national problems -- New Yorkers were unlikely to worry about their share of the spending, or the taxes. This applied to NY conservatives as well -- they favored defense buildups that shifted money elsewhere. That's not true anymore.
(As far as the Port Authority's regional equity is concerned, my reaction is a big yawn. NYC residents have got to start thinking
regionally rather than in their hick-town parochial manner.)
NYC politicians have thought regionally and nationally for a long time, in their pursuit of broader power. And NYC has been drained accordingly. Those elsewhere have pursued their local self interest. It's time for this to stop.
1655: Broken door window.
1775: One door would open seconds after the rest of the doors on the train open.
5336: Another door window broken. This time, tape was applied to the window.
What is funny about these three cases is that all of these doors were in motormans car. Shouldnt the cars be taken out of service???
3Train#2154Mike
If the window is completely shattered, that might be the case and you send the car to the shop. The glass may be available at the terminal so a quick changeout is possible.
-Stef
A slow door is nothing unusual, since many cars are linked, taking the train out of service would tie up 4 of 5 cars. Something like this should be caught and fixed on the next inspection. Here in Boston, totally inoperable door panels were allowed to stay in service for many years, though not in recent times. I seem to recall similar situations in NYC.
Broken glass is a different story, here the determining factor is whether the damage endangers passengers' safety. If yes the train should be taken out of service until repaired or repaired at a terminal as Stef indicated. Otherwise that too can wait until the next scheduled inspection. Remember that these use laminated glass so the damage is often confined to the outside.
I once remember being on a 6 train that had to be taken OOS because the rear window shattered by some unknown cause. Clearest railfan window I've ever seen! :-)
Does anyone know when they will have the Croton-Harmon open house?Any info will be appreciated.
Subb
If they are having one this year, I'm sure we would know the date by now since they usually have it in October. And it does cost the MTA money, and there wouldn't be anything much new from last year. So I wouldn't bet on one for this year.
With all of the discussion over the fact that now, only the F will use 63rd street b/c of the bridge flip service plan next year and the B and D terminating on the express tracks, forcing all 6th ave trains thru service to be local. The original 63rd st service plan was to have the V go from 179th street to 2nd ave & Houston street or church ave via Full Queens and 6th ave expresses, and the Q returning to Bway, extended to Forest Hills via 63rd st. Now the V will be local from Forest Hills to 2 ave via 53rd street and 6th ave local.
What confuses me is the following: The whole reason why the 63rd street connector was built was to provide relief off of the Queens Boulevard Line. Now, with only the F and no Q’s using 63st starting next year, I very much doubt that it will enormously help relieve congestion on Queens Boulevard. Plus, Queens Boulevard riders will still have an absence of 6th ave express service. All of the service changes would be a little less confusing and would make more sense if the MTA decided to do this:
B: Bedford Pk Blvd or 145st to 2ave/Houston St; 6th ave express, CPW local
D: 205th St to 2ave/Houston St; 6th ave, CPW local
F: current service
N: Bway express via bridge
Q: Forest Hills-71ave to Coney Island via Bridge, Brighton exp, Bway exp, Queens exp
S: Extended to Brighton Beach, local stops(transfer to Q at Prospect Park)
V: 179th Street to Church Ave; Queens exp, 6th ave express
W: current service plan
-Mike
I think MTA's main goal is to force some QB express riders to use local trains. Especially eith their plan there is no point to switsh from local to exp at Queens Plaza.
Arti
good plan, exept the b, and d should have different southern terminals to avoiud conjestion, maybe send the d to essex street.
You make no mention of the E, you say the F would have current service. Stop right there. The Queens Blvd express tracks are saturated with trains as it is between Queens Plaza/36th St. and Continental. Now you want to add the V & Q to the exprress tracks to make 4 lines on the express tracks! What about the local track? Just the R? This is the most absurd and dumb plan by a SubTalker I've ever seen. Don't take this personally, but come on! And to add insult to injury, you want the Q to terminate at Continental which would add to the congestion on the express tracks as trains are discharged there and crews are relieved! I think you have to go back to the drawing board!
They should make the Q terminate at Jamaica Center
Jamaica Center has limited capacity. I don't thin it could handle more than the current rush hour E.
Arti
Well, the original plan was to make the E local anyway, so it would only be three trains on the express tracks, and two on the local. It's not a dumb plan, just the original idea. There was a similar situation in the late 80's, on the 4th ave line in brooklyn. There was the B,M,and N on the express tracks,and only the R going local
If it's your plan or someone elses original plan, it still ain't gonna work! So we have the E (only 1 route can go to Jamaica Center due to the terminal layout), local all the way, and it has to contend with the R discharging & crew changes at Continental. And Manhattan bound, as it comes in on the local track at Queens Plaza, it has to squeeze between the F & V which come in on the express track. And the Q, which is express thru Queens, will delay the F & V at Continental as it also discharges passengers and changes crews. I can see it now: a Q arrives at Continental on the express and an R arrives on the local at the same time of which it is the last stop for both delaying trains behind it on both the local & express tracks. And the E goes off at Van Wyck Blvd. so you have to swing the F or V over to the local at 75th Ave. It just looks worse all the time! Whatever happens, all local service must terminate at Continental and all express service must continue on to Jamaica Center or 179 otherwise you will have dismal on time performance and customer complaints.
Also look at the track map on this site and you's realize that according to your plan all 6th Ave services have to merge to local tracks at some point. That would be impossible.
Arti
How about this instead- Manhattan Bridge Construction
Queens Blvd- During Construction
F: 179 Street to Coney Island (via Queens Blvd Exp, 6th Avenue Local, Culver Local)
E: Jamica Center-Parsons/Archer to World Trade Center (via Queens Blvd Express, 8th Avenue Local)
Q: 71 Avenue to Coney Island (via Queens Blvd Exp, Broadway Exp, Birghton Exp)
R: 71 Avenue to Bay Ridge 95 Street (via Queens Blvd local, Broadway Local, 4th Avenue Local)
V: 179 Street to 2nd Avenue (via Queens Blvd local, 6th Avenue Exp or local)
CPW and other lines
D: 205 Street to 34 Street (via Bronx loc/ exp, CPW express)
B: Bedford Pk Blvd or 145 Street to 34 Street (via bronx local, CPW local)
C and A- Service Normal
Christopher Rivera
Franklin Avenue Shuttle- Franklin Avenue to Brighton Beach (Brighton Exp)
With all due respect, the Franklin Ave. shuttle is more or less permanent the way it is now, especially after rebuilding. Stations along the shuttle can only accommodate 2-car trains of 75-footers, and four cars is the minimum requirement everywhere else.
It seem's that the T.A. can't realy figure out what to do with the ''F'' and the ''V'' lines.Sending the F through the 63rd street connector will basically do what has always happened with route changes, IT WILL CONFUSE,DISRUPE and most likly make a few people MAD!
I can't think of many riders who would benefit from 6th Ave Express service to or from Queens. The major destinations are 57th, 47-50, 42nd, and 34th. The 6th Ave line doesn't go to the downtown business area, and those riders who are headed there would already be taking the E. 6th Ave express service only helps riders to and from Brooklyn to reach midtown.
-Hank
"What confuses me is the following: The whole reason why the 63rd street connector was built was to provide relief off of the Queens Boulevard Line. "
When they planned the 63 St. Connector, it was to connect to an outdoor track running on the LIRR ROW that would skip the entire Queens Blvd. Subway tunnels up to around Union Tpke (maybe). But it never got built, and the 63 St. tunnel sat around half-completed, connecting nothing to nowhere, so they had to think of something and, rather than figure out how to connect it to Queens Plaza, they have made that ridiculous 36 St.-Qns connection, and now we all have to live with it, useless as it is.
Since it seems to be foregone conclusion that the Redbirds' storied history is about to become passe, I was wondering how many of them will be carted off to the transit museum, and whether they will be utilized for fan trips in the future. I enjoyed riding the #7 train out to Shea during my trip to New York in '99 and found the riding the reds a nice experience. BTW, how many of each discarded types are preserved?
10/01/2000
Fred,
Well you can count on one pair of ACF built Redbirds (R26 or R28) which may be acquired by the Illinois Railway Museum. Nothing concrete yet, they are raising money for the acquisition and shipment. It seems I.R.M. is hot for anything ACF built.
As far as other museums, I doubt Branford (Shoreline) will go for amy Redbirds. Unless they are hot for an R-33 single to keep #6688 company.
Bill "Newkirk"
The first R33WF, # 9306 is preserved at the Transit Museum in NYC
I have noticed so many pictures of our subway trains were taken by a person named Joe Testagrose. Anyway of contacting him. I was hoping to purchase some old photos of his----if they were available, or if he sold them. Needless to say, you can guess which train pictures I would be interested in.
He sells his photos at the ERA meetings. You can write him at joet@nycsubway.org (just an alias to his real email accounts)
-Dave
TWU has learned that Transit plabns on closing 90 part-time booths and cutting back numerous others.
There are no lay-offs but long lines at open booths, and sweatshop conditions for your Station Agent will result. We have tons of adminmistrative work to do in a booth such as count money and make deposits at set times plus paper repoprts to do!
Already we have to wait on a customer, do paperwork for 2-3 minutes, back to next customer, back to paperwork, etc. till we get it all done.
Another issue" If we wind up short due to pushing out too much money then we have to pay- this could be due to our error or a customer taking advantage of long lines and threats of complaints against us if we dont giv ethem proper change (when they are trying to scam us. I have had booths--thnakfully slow enough., where a customer triesd the I gave you a 20 and not a 10 routine. We close the window and count the money-- Yes, I came up even!
I have been in some stations (thankfully not to work) where the line ahs reached street level! SOme customers have seen me entering a station and actuaslly stopped me to try to get a token- I do help when I can by asssisting with MVM or travel help or assisting qwith swipe problems.
I can give any of you a copy of the list but will not post here. COntact your local politicans.
Dave- this is subway related. Subtalkers could be in that long line which has actually reached street level at some stations!
Even Times Square, Penn Station, Herald Square and Grand Central will have cuts!
(I will not post more on this subject.)
TWU has learned that Transit plabns on closing 90 part-time booths and cutting back numerous others.
There are no lay-offs but long lines at open booths, and sweatshop conditions for your Station Agent will result. We have tons of adminmistrative work to do in a booth such as count money and make
deposits at set times plus paper repoprts to do!
I would presume that these booth cutbacks will occur at MVM-equipped stations. As far as I know, NYCT's eventual plan is to use MVM's for all fare sales and reassign station agents to a customer service-type role. What you're describing sounds like an early step in this process. Sure, it will be a big change for station agents (and riders), and some disruption will result. But change is pretty much a constant today, and the best anyone can hope for is that disruption is kept to a minimum.
And in any event, be glad that NYCT is preserving all the station agents' job. No private-sector employer would do the same.
I agree with Peter on all counts.
Mr t__:^)
>>> TWU has learned that Transit plans on closing 90 part-time booths and cutting back numerous others. <<<
I hate to say I told you so, but in responding to your post on September 19th in which you said "MVMs will never replace us!" my response included the following:
"I predict that sometime in the future in the less busy stations there will be courtesy telephones installed next to token booths with signs saying ‘Pick up telephone for information when Agent is not on duty.' (And several years after that none of the phones will work.) The hours that agents are present will be cut back and the total number of station agents will be reduced."
I certainly did not expect it to happen so soon, and there is no need to apologize about your post, it is clearly transit related.
Tom
Around 1:30 pm today, someone from TWU Local 100's "New Directions" faction was handing out flyers about this on street level outside of the Steinway Street (Queens IND, Local) Station's 34th Avenue entrance/exit. Basically, it gave examples of why this particular part-time entrance should not be cut back and urged users of the entrance to call the MTA field manager for the station and local politicians.
In this particular part of the city, it would make sense for that entrance to be kept open more often, rather than being closed for much of the day. Both the north and south street-entrances to Steinway are over a 10-car train (say, of R-46's)-length apart, and, as is typical of IND stations, it has a rather long walk on the mezzanine between the steps to the street and the steps to the platforms on the so-called "main" entrance near Broadway. So, for an elderly person or a mama with a stroller to have to walk over 10 car-lengths, or one city block (and I mean the long blocks, not the short ones) out of her way and them back-track at street level poses a bit of an inconvenience. Remember, Steinway Street is a crowded shopping thoroughfare, and is not as easily navigable as the quieter streets in Queens.
[As a matter of fact, there are a plethora of station entrances which have been closed and actually walled-off on the Queens IND, which must drive straphangers who use the line crazy. I had counted myself lucky to be a user of the Steinway Street stop with its 2 still functioning (one barely) entrances. Looks like I counted too soon.]
Furthermore, Steinway is an unusual stop in that at this point, the line is in mid-S-curve, having veered left off Northern Blvd. to stop at Steinway St. before veering right underneath Broadway on its way to rejoin the express trains 3 stops later.
So essentially, the Steinway Street stop is much like 2 separate stops, which could be called "Steinway/Broadway" and "34th Avenue," and it conceivably would have been 2 stops if it had been an IRT line. I don't know about the other cut-backs, but both of these entrances serve enough of the neighborhood to be open for most of the day, IMHO. In other words, there are a lot of residences surrounding the 34th Avenue entrance, to the east, west and south, which should be well-served by that subway stop and entrance. The north-south blocks in Queens are loooooooooong, and this is a rare occasion when the Queens IND is travelling north/south rather than east/west.
per official bulletin the cards will go on sale at 7am on 10/9/2000. There will be two versions:
"We Got World" [sic] and
"Businessfirst Kicking it CEO"[sic]
The bulletin does not specify which booth will receive which version.
Here is the list- **stations are N O T grouped**
96-B,C,1,2,3,9
50-C,E,1,9
34-A,C,E,1,2,3,9
W4- A,C,E,B,D,F,Q
Chambers- A,C,E,1,2,3,9 (NOT on sale at Park Place)
53/7-B,D,E
28-N,R,1,9
23-N,R
14-N,R,L,4,5,6,1,2,3,9
Cortlandt- N,R
Whitehall-N,R
103-1.9
42-1,2,3,9
Christopher-1.9
Franklin Street-1,9
Wall- 2,3,4,5
Bowling Green- 4,5
NOte:
1- A station might not receive the cards even though they are supposed to get the cards.
2- A station might get the cards even though they are not supposed to. Either due to deliveries or transfers by supervision.
3- Go to the full-time booth at the statioon to get the best chance of getting the card.
4- MVMs- may or may not get the cards. We have nothing to do with feeding the MVMs.
Maybe they'll still be available on the 23rd. W. 4th St. will be my home station during my stay in the city, which is where I've bought my one-week passes the last few years.
I rode the LIRR to Montauk today and got a double-decker both ways. A conductor told me all the old diesels are gone! I wish I could have ridden them one more time. One of my fondest memories of rail travel is coming back from Montauk on one of those old ones at six at night in winter. Going through the dark, peacefulness of Long Island, the crossing guard bells. (SNIFF)
By the way, can those doubles go through the east river tunnel, and can they also run on electric power?
My site
The old cars have been gone since the spring.
The double-deckers can (and do) go through the East River tunnels, but
only when pulled/pushed by 500-series DM-30 (dual-mode) engines.
Currently, there is only one round-trip per weekday on each of the
OB, PJ, and Speonk branches. Last I checked, there were no through
services (i.e. no "Change at Jamaica" trains on these brances) on weekends.
The 400-series DE-30 engines are diesel power only.
There are 2 PJ direct trains each direction. Afternoons, its the 4:19 and the infamous 4:49, the pioneer of double-decker travel on the LIRR.
My last ride in the 'old' equipment was in a power pack (#161P) from Jamaica to LIC. The line is very interesting but the ride was forgetable. Although I never rode the GP-38s of the old equipment I perfer the FL-9s
Somehow I never thought of the GP-38s as "old equipment". The Alcos perhaps, the C-liners for sure. But then even I am not old enough to remember any steam on the LIRR.
Elias
I think they are talking about the 1955 ex-MU coaches when they say "old equipment", not the locomotives.
Just this time last year, the Electric Railroaders Assoiciation ran a fantrip putting the old cars through their paces one final time on three LIRR branches. You can take a look at the trip here:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Diesel/diesel.html
And we're doing it again this year with Metro-North FL-9s! See Dave's "Upcoming Events" for more information...and thanks, Dave, for posting it.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
For those that don't know, the ERA does some real nice fantrips, not the cheepest trip you ever took, but if you want a long ride on equip. that is just about to go bye bye, you won't be disappointed. They also do tours, I went on one to Coney Island. Their monthly meeting are very good too .... and I'm not even a member (yet).
They did a D-Type trip thru the streets of Brooklyn, I think in 1976, oh I wish I had been a railfan then.
Mr t__:^)
They did a D-Type trip thru the streets of Brooklyn, I think in 1976, oh I wish I had been a railfan then.
I was a railfan in 1976 but didn't know of the ERAs existence at that time. Wish I did.
--Mark
I just wish you hadn't scheduled the trip on the same day as the Harmon open house! 8-(
Actually, the reverse happened. We scheduled this trip back in the Spring, and Metro-North didn't announce the date of the Open House until very recently.
Unfortunately, we will not be able to stop at the Open House during the fantrip; the timing is wrong.
At this time, we are far short of the break-even point for this trip, but it is DEFINITELY going to operate, even if it loses money. However, if it loses a great deal of money (a distinct possibility, as it is a very expensive trip to operate), we will have to seriously consider whether we want to (or are fiscally able to) charter trains in the future. Bottom line, everyone: We run fantrips to raise money for the club; the dues don't come close to meeting our costs. Chartering a bus and taking people somewhere is much less expensive than chartering a train. If you want the New York Division-ERA to keep chartering equipment, GO ON THE TRIP!!! The information is in the "upcoming events" section of this site. If you don't think your money will reach us in time, show up at Grand Central on the day of the trip with $60 in hand (and a completed form if you have it).
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I rode the LIRR to Montauk today and got a double-decker both ways. A conductor told me all the old diesels are gone! I wish I could have ridden them one more time. One of my fondest memories of rail travel is coming back from Montauk on one of those old ones at six at night in winter. Going through the dark, peacefulness of Long Island, the crossing guard bells. (SNIFF)
It's possible that the old diesels were better in their younger years. But in the last couple of years of their use on the LIRR, which is when I rode them, they were dirty, decrepit, and utterly devoid of even the slightest iota of charm. They probably should have been scrapped no later than the mid-1980's.
I would gladly pay money for the opportunity to take a cutting torch to one of them.
10/01/2000
With exception to a couple of GP-38's that went to the New York and Atlantic, I don't think any of the GHP-38's were scrapped. Last I heard, they were being refurbished to be available for a lease pool. I'd like to see the pix of those units in different paint.
Bill "Newkirk"
Why on earth would you be shedding a tear for the LIRR Diesel Coaches?
They were the filthiest, most vile-smelling excuses for railroad cars that I have ever seen. I for one do not mourn the passing of these repugnant, repulsive rattletraps. Glad to see 'em GO GO GO GO GOODBYE! Phew! Phooey!
BTW the "New Car" smell seems to have worn off the new bilevels. They're pretty nice. I can actually fall asleep in them.
wayne
Well I happened to love those old diesel trains. True they weren't in good shape but I loved to hop on one of those old coaches on a cold winter day. They had the best heat! And to ride in the first car(hopefully from Jamaica) closest to the engine and to hear the horn blasts and the little up and down motions at every grade crossing. And to ride on the platform during rush hour on a summer day with the wind whipping at your face while holding a cold beer. You can't do that with the double-deckers. I personally will miss those old guys very much. It's times like this that I hate change.
More of us will think of them favorably as the bad memories begin to fade. The funny thing is that so many of them were grabbed up by many RxRs & museums, e.g. NY & Atl has one, the Steam Engine 39 has two, Cape Cod got some, etc. ... I'm talking of coaches vs. pwr-packs.
Mr t__:^)
Since about 1994 there have been 3 ex-LIAR FA/FB power packs sitting at Winslow Jct. They might have lost a few, but they were in such sorry shape and butt ugly to boot. They were painted in several shades of olive and rust and used plywood to cover various openings. How the bissiest railraod in the country could use such piss poor equipment was beyond me. It also shows one how in this era of preservation, it is hard for any old piece of equipmnent to get scrapped. Most of the NJT DL&W MU's survive in tourist duty as will the powerpacks and Diesel coaches and possibly one day the FL-9's and SPV's and ACMU's
Recently one of these Power Packs was spotted in Quebec along with some of the x-LIRR coaches in use by a tourist line there.
(photo in Sept. RailPace)
Mr t__:^)
Recently one of these Power Packs was spotted in Quebec along with some of the x-LIRR coaches in use by a tourist line there.
Those poor tourists!
[Those poor tourists!]
I'm sure the tourist railroad renovated them and cleaned them up, especially the windows. Then they wouldn't be so bad as they were nice cars back when they were electric MU's.
Actually, when they were electric m.u.'s, they weren't that bad. It's after they were converted to diesel-hauled push-pull equipment that they started their downward decline (which was more like, over a cliff instead of a decline....)
I remember riding the LIRR in my youth....the WORST cars were the 800-series "P70" cars (unlike Pennsy's P70's). The ex-Lackawanna (8506-8513) and ex-Reading (8514-8516) and ex-Delaware & hudson (8517-8522) cars were also rolling piles of crap held together only by forty coats of paint.
The P54/MP54's weren't even that bad, and to ride in the 1955-1956 P-S stock was like living in the lap of luxury.
And when the 30 MP75 cars came along in 1963, we thought we were on the railroad to heaven!!!
does anyone have a historical roster?
I've posted rosters of the LIRR equipment from various era (late 1957, mid-1960's) etc. on here last year.
Sorry, but I am NOT going to re-type it all again.
I never understood why they changed the seats on the old coaches to M-1 types. I guess it was for unifomity. The old LIRR seats were so comfortable, you could just sink right into them, and the reversible seats were far better. You always had a front facing seat and if you wanted to face each other (such as a large group or if you had a card game) you could do it anywhere in the car, not just by the doors.
The M-1 seats on the diesel coaches - you could sink right into THEM too; only problem was your @$$ would go right through them!
wayne
Were the reversibles like the ACMU ones? The 'flip' or 'slide' style (flip has one seat back, slide has 2, slide is used by NJT and ACMUs 1150-1186). What color?
Just trying to get a mental picture.
They were slides, and they were a deep green in color.
Older ones had a handle on the isle side,
I am not sure that the newer ones did.
The all had little metal springy things to hold the ticket or seat check.
I would flip them all as I exited the train at NYP.
For some reason this did not seem to bother the trainman. : )
Elias
Those seats would also be referred to as "walkover" seats. You'd walk down the aisle and flip them over. Trainmen were supposed to do it at end terminals, so you were actually helping them do a lot of work.
10/02/2000
I was told that some made there way down to Georgia for some tourist RR to Stone Mountain. I was told that the end vestibules were cut out and doors removed to make them like an observation car.
Also back up here in NY & NJ the New York & Susquenhanna RR. They have several painted burgundy with end diaphrams. One car I saw didn't have the M-1 type seating. Also every other window was openable.
Bill "Newkirk"
Not to sound ignorant but what exactly is a power pac.
A section added to diesels that has no controls. It's just a big engine. Increases the power of the engine.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's NOT a section added to diesels that have no controls. It also does NOT increase the power of the engine.
The "Power Pack" is the name given to LIRR's fleet of Alco FA-1 and FA-2 locomotives as well as a handful of EMD F-7/9 units. They were called that, because they provided "Head End Power" to the cars on the train. The cars depended on an outside electrical source for the electricity for their heat, lights, air conditioning and doors.
LIRR's fleet of "Power Pack" locomotives were, in fact, fully equipped locomotives when they were built (all for other railroads). They were converted to "Power Packs" in the 1970's by removal of their traction motors, and changing the electrical systems so that the diesel engine inside would generate the electricity needed for the cars. The controls were left in place, so that by wiring the passenger cars, the "Power Packs" could control a trainwith a locomotive at the other end providing locomotion. (It did not necessarily have to be at the other end....could be anywhere in a train as long as the multiple-unit cables were connected.)
In later years, the large diesel engines were removed from almost all the Alco engines; a smaller diesel engine was installed which drove the generators. The EMD F-units made into "Power Packs" on the LIRR were always this way on the LIRR. One of the FA-2's was converted to a power car for the original bi-level train when it was hauled by GP38-2's; it received major carbody modifications so that it would blend in with the bi-level cars and lost its control capabilities in the process. (Someone said "They neutered it" -- very appropriate!)
Thank you for the clarification...
BTW what are those sections that I was thinking of, that are added to diesels, called?
Peace,
ANDEE
Cabless B-Unit Boosters.
If you remember the LIRR diesels they had a GP-35 type engine on one end and an old Alco FA/PA on the other end. The FA was just a "power pack" for the passenger coaches. When the engineer sat in it's cab, the motive power came form the other end.
Mr t__:^)
Power packs were old gutted cab units that were fitted with a HEP engine for train heat and lighting. Some of the coaches had their own diesel motor.
Right.
The 26-27-2800 series cars were the push-pull cars which required head-end power. These were converted from the 2500, 2600, and 2800 series m.u. cars.
The 2901-2980 "P72" cars had their own Detroit Diesel and generator underneath each car and did not require Head End Power. These cars also did NOT have the m.u. cabling added either.
In Quebec? Sacre Bleu!
You cant make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. PHEW - Diesel coaches!
A couple times the conductors enlisted my help with the doors, once with the manual doors and once with the automatic. Gave up on those stupid control boxes (how the hell do you work those!) and ended up keying open one door at a time.
Yup, brand new equipment at your service. Just like I said in my prior post, I hate anything new. At least with the old diesels, if one door was stuck, you just walked to the other door right next to it.
Hey, Tod. Are you the guy from the radio? News 88?
Yup.
But it's Todd. (Mom & Dad gave me that name.)
And it's WCBS 880. (Infinity Broadcasting Corp. just changed the "slogan" from Newsradio-88 to WCBS 880. But let's let that thread run out on the New York Radio Message Board, not here.)
Before I bother taking the trip, is Newark running the new equipment yet?
No.
It's worthwhile to ride it again with the PCC's.
10/02/2000
I rode the Newark City Subway this past Saturday (9/30). I thought this line was closed on weekends.
Bill "Newkirk"
Why would you want to go out of your way to ride Kinkisharyos when you can ride a real live 1948-model PCC, one of the last of the breed?
If you'd like to ride on the new equipment, it is on the HBLR, not a bad ride in and of itself.
wayne
'cause theyare ADA and the daughter-unit uses a chair.
But most of the Newark City Subway stations are not chair acccessable.
When I rode it 2 years back, I was told upgrading to full ADA was in process. And, since the daughter-unit in question was raised correctly, she is interested in transit and mainline trains (many years earlier when not a chair user, she was on BART on openung day!)
In that case, I recommend that you enter and leave the system at Franklin Avenue (or the new terminus when it opens), where the platform is at street level and accessable, not at Penn Station, where, AFAIK, it's stairs down and escalator up. (I don't know what the operator will do when you get to Penn Station. Everybody's supposed to get off before the car goes around the loop. I guess they'll have to let you ride around.)
If I were asking this question, it would only be to see if the PCC's are still running. What's of interest on the NCS, besides the PCC cars?
[What's of interest on the NCS, besides the PCC cars?]
- Part of the line runs on a canal bed
- Ramps that lead to the street are still visable
- Street crossing, one spot, great photo op
- Maint facility between the tracks at Newark
Mr t__:^)
Not to mention the new connection to the "real" railroad, the new maintenance facitlty, and the new stations at the end of the line.
The old Morris Canal bed, to be exact.
Take a look at the "Field Trip" report from June of 1999. There were two trips made there by SubTalkers. You'll be surprised how good a shape the PCCs are in ... and how fast they go.
Mr t__:^)
When I boarded the shuttle train at Grand street it smelled like smoke, as did the Grand street station. Arrived at Broadway-Lafeyette to see track workers on the northbound express track, and the station had visible smoke.
Apparently a small track fire broke out somewhere near the station, I saw them bringing fire extenguishing canisters back up the stairs.
Also earlier saw on the Broadway (southbound) line around 14th 3rd rail w/no cover. I had to wait awhile for the F at Broadway-Laf, and it was pretty crowded. I got off at 34th.
At 34th I got on the N to go back. A nice beautiful train of brightliners (R32's) pulled up. The trip through the 60th street tube was very fast, we reached 53mph according to the speedometer.
Then I changed to the 7 at Times Square and was lucky to get the window again. I'll sure miss that when the Redbirds leave the Flushing line, but I have a feeling they are still going to be around for a little while.
Got to Flushing to see the Wendy's stripped of it's sign, and to my suprise, several letters begging Wendy's to reconsider.
Very busy place, and Wendy's is "shooting themselves in the foot" by loosing money by not re-opening the store.
There was an editorial in the Daily News posted, where the writer states exactly what I have said. By closing the Flushing Wendy's permanently, they are giving the killers the satisfaction that they have left their mark, and in a way promoting anarchy.
Since I'm a frequent user of the 7 line and go through Flushing all the time, it's damn inconvenient for me, not only depressing.
You can bet I'm gonna make alot of noise to the brass at Wendy's so they come back to Flushing. If they don't, then they obviously don't know how to do business (to make money).
If they reopened that Wendys, they may be hard pressed to find people to work there.
Heard tonight at the Bayside LIRR station:
Automated: "The Westbound train to NY scheduled to depart at 5:56 was last reported at Great Neck as ON TIME"
Well, thank you mr. lirr computer but I usually expect to hear those announcements only when the train is delayed... Are they trying to actually be helpful or something?
They've had those announcements on the Babylon Branch for years. I think they were trying them out with plans to expand systemwide. If you get to the station early enough, you can track your train right up to when it arrives.
Lately, the system has been working pretty well, with one strange twist, though. The last few weeks, while standing on the platform at Rockville Centre at 8:00 AM, the announcement will be made -- "The 8:01 to New York has been reported at Rockville Centre operating ontime". Usually gets lots of confused looks from people on the platform, but the train shows up a minute later.
CG
Lucky for you guys. When I hear that crackle waiting for a train at Islip, my butt cringes for it can mean only one thing, delays. Lo and behold, last time I was at Islip waiting for a train in the hot sun, I heard:
"The train scheduled to leave Patchogue at 4:19, Sayville at 4:25, Oakdale at 4:28, Great River at 4:32, Islip at 4:35, Bay Shore at 4:38 and Babylon at 4:44 is running 45 minutes late."
Needless to say I wasn't singing the praises of the LIRR when I heard that.
When you hear that very long announcement where they announce the departure times at every station along the way, it usually means a late train or a short train.
My favorite announcemet is on an express that originates at Wantagh at 7:48 AM. It comes from the West and turns around at Wantagh. Sometimes, there is an announcement that the trains is operating 33 minutes EARLY!
-- Kirk
I need to take the 6 train to Pelham Station at around 7:10. I'm getting on at 33rd street, and was wondering if the R142 A's are gonna be running.I know one usually comes at 7:08 at 33rd Street. Will ir be running???
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSITiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
No there should be no R142A's running until after the train comes out of 207 Street shop which will happen 21 days from Monday.
The R142A (7211-7220) should be at 207 St Now.
Can any subtalkers tell me about, or point me in the right direction, to find out about the trolley lines that existed in Staten Island?
I ask because, riding the #78 on Hylan from Tottenville back to the ferry today, I noticed a new bus turnaround at Richmond Avenue. The pavement was new, but it was lined with thr same kind of trolley poles I recognize from the ones that remain in Brooklyn. I remember that spot (SE corner of Richmond and Hylan) as being overgrown as long as I've been going down there, so the old trolley turnaround must have been covered for years before being rediscovered and put to new use...
www.forgotten-ny.com
It was a turnaround, but it's hardly new. Freshly paved is about it. Service on SI ended long before it ended elsewhere in the city. There is at least one trolleybarn left, it's on Arhur Kill Rd, near Armstrong Ave.
-Hank
Speaking of trolley remnants, on McDonald Ave between Kings Highway and Ave S, is a garage with curved trolley tracks leading into it. These tracks connected to those that ran under the Culver El. Any idea what this garage (well, that's what it is now anyway) was when the trolley was operating? Was it a car barn?
--Mark
That was a coal or an oil company. I don't know when the siding was last active, but probably not since the early 1960s. The McDonald Avenue tracks were used until 1978, but the tracks weren't paved over until 1991. The strangest thing is that railroad crossing pavement markings were installed in 1979 - a year after the tracks were abandoned and unusable due to sections being removed near Foster Avenue and Avenue X as part of the Mcdonald Ave street reconstuction.
The tracks on MacDonald Av weren't trolley tracks, they were the tracks of the South Brooklyn Railroad. I remember seeing a small freight or work train pulled by a diesel locomotive going down MacDonald by Gil Hodges Field near the Belt Parkway in the early 70's, years after trolleys were discontinued in NY. Since I thought they were trolley tracks at the time I did a real double take!!!
Actually, the McDonald Av tracks were used by both electric freight trains and the B 50 trolley line. There are lots of pictures of this in the photo archives, both at this site and others.
The trolley quit in 1956, and I believe the electric freight lasted until 1963, when it was deiselized.
For a short time in the early 1960's, TMNY ran a Swedish trolley along McDonald Av with the tacid approval of the City and SBK. This was supposed to be the start of a trolley museum in Brooklyn, with its headquarters located in the Coney Island trolley terminal.
However, Donald Trump's father decided he wanted the terminal land to build Trump Village, and Mayor Wagner then doublecrossed TMNY and shut down the museum idea.
Hey, Bob, thanks for the excellent info. I had heard (and seen some old photos) of that Swedish trolley on Mickey D Ave., but the stuff about Poppa Trump and Wagner was certainly news to my ears!
BMTman
The trolley in question still lives. See http://tmny.org/tmny0079.html.
Could you just imagine a Brooklyn Trolley Museum with its trackage rights running nearly 2/3 the length of McDonald Ave? (sigh)
--Mark
This is at the St. George ferry terminal, Richmond Railways, early 1930's:
(Photo credit: TMNY Collection, catalog #4092)
10/01/2000
On Saturday, I emerged from the LIRR Flatbush Avenue terminal to the street level to find something that shocked me. The ancient long disused headhouse on the small triangular island that abuts Flatbush, Fourth and Atlantic Avenues is GONE !
It must have been recently demolished. This old building was a fare comtrol for the downstairs IRT Subway. There was the name "Atlantic Avenue" chisled on the top. Years ago there was some steel work that was removed that was attached this building which may have been a trolley or bus shelter, but I doublt it had anything to do with the Fifth Avenue "el". Oh well, another piece of history, gone!
KEVIN WALSH, take note!
Bill "Newkirk"
The building was removed from the site for renovation. It has not been demolished.
I hear they want to make it into a bus shelter or something.
Pigs: I've heard it will be used by MTA/NYCT as a Transit Information booth (and perhaps another Transit gift shop) as well as serving as a bus shelter.
BMTman
10/02/2000
[The building was removed from the site for renovation. It has not been demolished.
I hear they want to make it into a bus shelter or something.]
Well I'm relieved, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't this the only Interborough head house in Brooklyn ? I'm glad it will be restored and play a different role in transit. Had this been a couple of decades ago, it would have been indeed demolished. Now for the million Metrocard question, where was this headhouse moved to ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, I'll try and find out through my sources in the "underground" (sorry about the pun!)
P.S. I just recently signed on with the Erasmus Hall Alumni Association's website. I see you're not there. Get on board, buddy!
BMTman
Bill, have no fear, the old IRT Kiosk will return.
It was flatbedded away for renovations. It is a Historic Landmark and will get some much needed TLC while the triangle it sat on also gets a facelift. The Kiosk will be returned to the site and I'm sure some big civil ceremony (including a ribbon-cutting) will occur to commemorate the event.
BTW, up till the early 80's it was used as a newstand/deli counter.
BMTman
Yeah, sure Doug. Tell the truth, now, you and heypaul have moved it to an undisclosed location.
Peace,
ANDEE
Shhhhussh!
Now, you've let the cat outta the bag!
;-)
BMTman
Check underground near August Belmont's siding under the defunct Hotel Belmont :)
--Mark
It's funny that most of you are looking forward to riding new cars like the R142 or the impending delivery of the new cars for the Newark City Subway. This only means one thing, the old cars go away.
I know that you are all anxious to try something new but most times it means that one of your old "friends" has to say goodbye. I'm missing already those old LIRR diesels and coaches. The redbirds aren't far behind and the PCC's in Newark are endangered. I haven't ridden the R142 but I can tell you this: I HATE IT ALREADY. Do you really think that these R142's are gonna last 38 to 41 years like a redbird? Do you think that these cars will have a better MDBF than a redbird considering all the computers installed on it? What do computers do best? Break down. Do you think a young child will be able to twirl the side sign just to see what was on it on a R142? Face it, all of us used to enjoy playing with the side sign just to see how many stations or lines were on the rollers. Nope, can't do that now. Those have been disappearing even on the redbirds the past few years but there are still a handful left. There is NO shot of doing that on a R142. Just a drab computer screen. Do I have to mention the railfan windows disappearing slowly but surely?
How about those old fishbowl buses. Don't you wish that a few of those were still in TA service? Didn't you love to hop on the back seat which was always hot and open up that last window and if you were lucky it opened up all the way? Same with the old flxibles. Those old fishbowl buses lasted 30 to 40 years. The new shelf life for new buses? 15 to 20 years. How about the old fareboxes that sounded like it was chewing up your coins?
Every few years they came out with a new token when they raised the fare. It gave you something to look forward to. Now you will get the same drab old metrocard whether the fare goes up or not. I believe it was Chris R16 who said that he got to twirl with an old sign with the color coded numbers on the IRT. I used to do it, it was fun! Hey Chris R16! You don't even get different colors on the bulkhead computer sign on a R142 do you? No, just red. Boring. And you can't even play with it.
I might be very nostalgic for a 29 soon to be 30 year old man but I have found the value in old things. And I can say with 100% certainty that I am very glad that I grew up in the 80's as compared to now. Sure I missed the R9's(I don't remember them, I was only 6)and a lot of old wonderful stuff, but I remember playing hooky, riding those old R10's on the GG and playing conductor with the triggers and caps with my friends. Or going on an old R16 on the J and playing with the bulkhead sign to see what old signs were on there like QJ or EE. Even better, clicking down that square railfan window on the R22 and letting the air smack you in the face. Boy, wasn't that fun in the tunnel!! I know that progress has to come our way but they're taking all the fun out of everything. And this just doesn't pertain to just trains and buses either. When we were younger, we had to use our imaginations. Now, a computer screen shows our imaginations to us. That's why the new star wars movie stunk out the joint compared to the old star wars movies. Too many computer graphics and not enough creativity.
Anyway, that's why I hate these new cars. They take away all that was fun with the old cars and they make them very impersonable. Computers control everything now. And that my friend, really stinks.
ZMAN this is one of the reasons why i will be shooting video on all lines served by redbirds this late october!!to preserve the last of it
I totally agree with your post & every thing you said & posted ....
You did not miss a beat anywhere on your post Example the BLUE LINE rail cars here in los angeles are rusting already on the sides of thier bodies & they are only 12 years old !!Your comment on the good old r 22 was RIGHT ON THE MONEY !!! that was a subway car & train
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
.
i really agree with you, especially with regards to the boring factor and the lack of mystery related to roll signs...
however, i think you were being unfair to the new equipment when you said:
" Do you really think that these R142's are gonna last 38 to 41 years like a redbird? "
be fair... the r-142a's will last forever if properly maintained and redesigned... i think they operated pretty well since they were first put on the road... now the braking system and doors are being redesigned so that they can give another 15 days of reliable service... they just overlooked these systems when they designed them... they were really focused on the automated announcements... that took a lot of time and energy to get straight... this way when a customer falls asleep, he will know immediately where he is by looking at the location screen... this is great progress... so with semi-annual general overhauls, these new cars will provide many many years of reliable service...
think of it... after every g.o., there will be a lot of excitement to ride the cars again and see what major system has been redesigned...
i disagree with you. #1, they are machines,not friends. you shouldn't get so attached. #2 the R-142's can last a half life or more. because of the careful planning of these cars, they are made to stay reliable in service and have e-z maintenance, plus they are stainless steel, which means corrosion-free. #3 there are railfan windows. try riding them. #4 who wants to play with roll signs. if you want to get a summons or go a day in the slammer then its fine by me. thats what the r-142 doesn't have because it will trip the passengers in where the train is supposed to go. and it isn' a toy! #5 though a digital sign is just plain red (company cost cutter) its good that it is intense, so anyone can see it in the dark, can tell what train is what from about 500 feet. Redbirds tungsten light couldn't light the colorfull roll sign, which makes the red intense computer display a +. #6 have consideration for the handicapped and the environment. thats the reason they got rid of them all. they pollute, the handicapped couldn't get a ride and they were falling apart. #7 where did you get 30-40 from? fishbowls never lasted that long. more over, the TA scrapped some of them after 20 years. they debut in the early/mid 60's
#8 inflation makes the fares go up. also for compensation of expenses that the TA has on rehabilitating the system. and with new more efficient turnstiles, new tokens have to be made. Metrocards(though they pollute the environment)were made to give riders a value and to cut down on lines. they were faulty at first but now are flawless. #9 if the computers on the R-142 ain't dealin' with bill gates, then it won't break down every minute. #10 in this generation, computer graphics are entertaining, roll signs are not animative, nowadays nobody is interested in a roll signs except for the ones who are from the previous generation. Mr.Zman, i understand about every way you feel in your nostalgic recollection, everyone misses everything that was with them since childhood. however, things have to change for the better convenience of everyone in society. also things have a life like we do. things can't last to long and are not made to last that long. thats why it isn't good to be attached to many machines or objects knowing they won't ber around forever. thats why you must become more apreciative of the new things that come along and be more accepting towards them. they are made to make life alittle bit better and you know nobody will turn back towards the obsolete once exposed to new things that makes life a little better. not to say that everything is better than the old but, its up to date with the demands of the people who were requesting them. you are a good ol railfan/ transit buff, however you have to think about the others also who aren't railfans, that matter more because they are the ones who are going to be using these new pieces of equipment to get to work like us and it makes the TA's job much easier. learn to appreciate not discriminate!
terrence benjamin KHI
Of all the divided factions that appears to be on Subtalk, the one that seems to be the most passionate is people who love the old equipment and hates anything new, and vice-versa. Without starting a flaming war, what are the reasons you all here love the new equipment or the old equipment better? I'm more of a new quipment type of guy. I love seeing new innovations that make transit so fun for me. I'm a big fan of ZPTO, and all the line around the world that use it. While I love new equipment, I have an appreiation for the old stuff. Without the old stuff, we wouldn't be where we are today. While I'm am only 19, I can't really miss any of the old equipment. One old piece of equipment I love is the wooden escalators at Macy's in NYC. I instantly fell in love with that "Clackity-clack" sound. It's music to my ears. If they ever replaced them, I would be extremely pissed. However, while I like those escalators, imagine if all the escalators in the US were still wooden? They would be pieces of crap. Same with subway cars. Eventually, you gotta get new ones, but keep a few of the old ones for museums for everyone to enjoy every once in a while.
So, why do you all like old/new equipment?
I'm more of a new quipment type of guy.
You seem like my kind of guy!
I love seeing new innovations that make transit so fun for me. I'm a big fan of ZPTO, and all the line around the world that use it.
Did you participate in the thread about people who wouldn't be railfans if it wasn't for an operator up front? I was one of the few (or only) people who said the operator is not important to my interest. I would actually like it better if it was more high tech and was ZPTO.
So, why do you all like old/new equipment?
I don't like the old equipment at all. I could like something in the old equipment better (R-142 seats suck worse than anything except for R-40 seats).
What I like about the R-142:
Digital Signs. They can be easily set to the necessary terminal, are just as legible, and can show the route and destination (not origin, we don't need that) in a compact fashion. I don't like the pre R-40 signs.
Automated announcements. While sometimes there's a conductor who makes priceless announcements, these are rare and that's a sacrifice I'm willing to take to eliminate all those other lackluster ones.
The ability to see into the next car.
The new longitudnal bar above the center of the car.
Those cool A/C motor sounds.
Less shaking, less grinding noise, less noise overall
They're silver, I like that in a train.
The clock
The painting on the front adds a nice touch.
What SUCKS about the R-142:
The seats
The fold down seats are even worse
The sides, while better than Redbird sides, aren't as shiny as the R-68A and are very dull.
Those fading red stripes. They look nice from a distance, but up close they are not so good.
I liked the R-44 to R-68 colors. They had some R-62s with benches (not buckets). They should have used those seats.
I found the announcements too quiet.
Did you participate in the thread about people who wouldn't be railfans if it wasn't for an operator up front?
Yeah, but I don't remember what I wrote. I think I mentioned that I liked ZPTO. I definitly said I would still like transit even without T/O's and C/R's, cuz that's not what I'm interested in.
i remember when the marta system was less than 10 years old & the
north south line ran only to the arts center to the north line ending
& the west end station to the south. the brand new french made trains
broke down with multiple computer failures . the doors freeze shut in any cold weather especially overnignt!! new aint always better......
in quality compaired to when the redbirds were brand new !!!!!!
i agree with this post most of all & the spirit of it as well !!!!!
When I was 13, SEPTA started getting The Kawasaki LRV's. I couldn't wait until they started running on the Route 13. I do miss the Pre-War PCC's. When I turned 16, The Kawasaki B-IV's started arriving on the BSL. I thought they were cool too (mainly because they do resemble the Almond Joys). But, The Adtrash (excuse me, Adtranz) M-4 fleet are pathetic. I do like new equipment (except for the M-4's), but we should always preserve at least some of the cars from the past so that way, a new generation will appreciate transit history. As for the Fishbowls, I miss them too, and when THe Fox Network first aired the movie "Speed", they were giving away a fishbowl (that was back in '96) and I was trying to win it. Alas, I did not win, but it would be cool to drive to work in a Fishbowl. More of this in Bus Talk.
I found this really cool site for rail pictures I thought you would enjoy:
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/index.html
Enjoy.
- Brian
Lots of trolley photos from the NYC area, very nice.
Thanks for the link.
Mr t__:^)
I spotted a few South Bend street scenes in the South Shore section.
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The kit is $135.00 and the body shell is $95.00.
Shipping is $4.00 for the first item and $3.00 for each additional item.
See our website at: http://ihphobby.tripod.com
Email me at: mkwb@excite.com for more information or questions.
Three people were shot on an N train at East 59th early Sunday morning by gang members who thought they were being videotaped. Six arrested. Story in today's Times.
Same story in today's Daily News.
Try 'em, convict 'em, and hang 'em. Enough of this crap.
...and deport 'em.
Before or after you hang them?
Before.
This way we can get around that whole "cruel and unusual punishment" thing.
My sentiments exactly! Hell, let's toss those little bastards into a pool filled with man-eating sharks. Let's how well those cowards can fight without their guns against a more powerful foe. So full of themselves for thinking somebody would film them.
But seriously, it doesn't suprise me that something as horrible as this happened. I read about a man who shot another man for accidently stepping on his foot. Well, I guess I'll be doing my picture-taking outside the train and during the day. I hope the poor victims sue these little bastards.
From the Bronx---HHHHHHMMMMMMMMMM!!!!
With comments like that, there is no way anyone can doubt that YOU were the agitator in the last conflict.
If you are going to cause havoc, do it in your own backyard and not in someone else's. That's what I meant. People have a right to feel secure in their neighborhoods. If those punks want to destory things let them destroy things intheir own balliwick.
You had me worried(?) there for a bit thinking Mr. LA transit system was involved.
I'm sure many of us were thinking that.
And with respect to your previous post, yes he should.
2:30 a.m. on the subway with a video camera? Not to sound like I'm blaming the victims, but they weren't too smart, were they?
As a person who shoots subway videos, I agree. I try to be circumspect with my recording and not infringe on people's privacy.
Yup, always the car and never the people (unless their back is to the camera or you've asked permission).
You can bet that my ears perked up when I first heard this story.
--Mark
I shot at night on the # 7 a bunch of loudtalkers but clearly my video camera was shooting thru the storm railfan window & not at anybody!!
however many time the subway car was emepty & i swung it around!!
took a still too !! ( WHEN NOBODY WAS ABOARD ) & at night !!! wow!
I just hope that if you ever get into a situation where some gangbanger S*C*U*M threaten your life for taking video of them by mistake, the "fascist gestapo pigs" as you call them are there to save your @$$, Bet that'll change your mind about the police.
I got to agree. The police have taken a lot of $#!^ the past year. It's a job that not many ppl would do, and I think that the people should appreciate them. Imagine if there were no cops??? How then would the city be?? I think Al Sharpton needs to take a seat, and shut up. Just my personal opinion.
PS Sorry for the off topic post, but I couldn't help myself.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
I also think that if they do something wrong or commit a wrongful act they should be punished. Who wouldn't say that Volpe was a example of
justice?
I think Al Sharpton needs to take a seat, and shut up. Just my personal opinion.
I agree. It seems like he is always anti-police or simply refusing to place the blame where it really should. Another is the guy from the Black Panthers (what's his name, I totally forgot his name, seriously) who spew racist remarks against the whites. Those guys need to shut up unless they want anarchy.
Loius Farakan? I don't know how to spell his name. Nation of Islam leader.
Abdu Kali Muhammud? I think your talking about him.
Clark: Al Sharpton shut up? He's the African-American version of Newt Gingrich. He never met a mike he didn't like or a news conference he could pass on. Unlike Newt, however, the bum is an out and out bigot himself and has never apologized for the Tawana Brawley fiasco of a few years ago.
* sorry sir i disagree with your post. newt gingrich is out of office & remember there are many black folks out there who do not agree with you & the spirit of your post. .
So? Everybody has a right to their opinion. You too.
And Newt Gingrich may be out of office, when was Al Sharpton IN office to begin with? He's the quintessential demagogue (I don't expect you to know what that means).
And I accept your difference of opinion----unlike some other guys on this site who seem to take offense to someone who disagrees with them, and I don't mean you Salaam. But I do stand by what I said about Re. Sharpton. I don't like bigotry wherever it comes from.
* sorry sir i disagree with your post. newt gingrich is out of office & remember there are many black folks out there who do not agree with you & the spirit of your post. .also what does this have to do with the people being shot on the N train
Salaamallah? Is that you?
Fred, how can you compare Al Sharpton to Newt Gingrich? Aside from their very different political viewpoints, Newt Gingrich was lawfully elected to office and served that office honorably (whether you agree or disagree with his viewpoints). Sharpton, on the otherhand is not elected. he has declared himself the voice of the black people. He will inject himself into any issue that can be turned into a racial one. His goal is to skim contributions to support his somewhat opulent lifestyle at the expense of the poor black people he claims to represent.
Example: Burger King threatened to close one restaurant in Detroit (I think) because the franchisee owed the parent company $6,000,000.00. Sharpton made it a racial issue and threatened a nationwide boycott of the franchise.
Example: During the Amadu D'Allou trial, in Albany, Sharpton bussed the unemployed dupes to Albany from NYC every day to fill the courtroom with 'supporters' while he stayed in a suite in an Albany hotel and traveled via limo.
Say what you will, Fred, Al Sharpton likely will never be elected to public office. Then again he really doesn't want to. If he were, he'd be accountable. Sharpton has found it to be far more profitable to declare himself a candidate, collect the matching funds, and then quietly withdraw from the race (keeping the funds). This is a matter of public record - if you doubt me.
like i said in my post ...what does this have to do with these innocent people being SHOT on the N train ...both your post & his is off topic & has nothing whatsoever to do with "people SHOT on the N train" !!!!!
Do you know the meaning of the word thread drift?
Of course not, idiot.
Who gives a rat's ass about what you said in your post, K.D.
If I choose to respond to a posting in a thread you can either read it or not, comment on it or not but don't tell me it's off-topic. As for off-topic and inane posts, you are still the original
VILLAGE IDIOT
What I mean Train Dude is that both of them have big mouths and can't keep from spouting off. But I do agree with your assessment of Rev. Sharpton. I don't care for the fellow and I think the man is an anti-white bigot.
Leave Fat Al alone.
We DON'T know what happenned to Brawley -- until then, don't start drawing your own conclusions.
Particularly when you haven't lived in these parts for over 2 decades.
Chaio,
BMTman
As for Tawana Brawley, the courts have pretty much affirmed what most reasonable people presumed.
Ahhh, the courts. And our great judicial system is NEVER flawed, eh, Dude?
Just like the OJ case, I presume...?
BMTman
WHAT DOES the oj case HAVE TO DO WITH PEOPLE BING SHOT ON THE N TRAIN?
Salaam, it obviously has nothing to do with people shot on the N train. Neither does your repeatedly asking the question,"WHAT DOES the oj case HAVE TO DO WITH PEOPLE BING SHOT ON THE N TRAIN?" Nor does bringing Patty Hurst into the discussion to mitigate your obvious embarassment over tawana brawley. Now we all know that facts mean nothing to you. We all know that proof (proff) means nothing to you. We all know that common sense means nothing to you. The sad facts are:
Patty Hurst was guilty and went to jail.
Al Sharpton, Alton Maddox and C. Vernon Mason were guilty of perpetrating a fraud & hoax, slander, etc.
Tawana brawley was guilty of filing a false police report to cover up 'hanging' with her boyfriend all night. She was never prosecuted, even after duping many high profile celebreties like mr. cosby.
O.J. was found innocent despite overwhelming evidence for two reasons. First, the LAPD relied on Mark Fuhrman, who despite the fact that he found evidence that OJ committed the crime, he was a racist, which, in the minds of some people, discredited the physical evidence. Second, because in some groups, the guilt or innocence of a suspect has been reduced a spectator sport where it has nothing to do with facts but is based on who they are rooting for.
Now, again, salaam, this has nothing to do with the N train or people being shot. So what? Apparently some people here want to discuss it. Ignore it if you don't want to join the discussion. Or you can contribute something (and I dread using the word in conjunction with you) intelligent if you have something to say. HOWEVER, IF IT IS AN ACT, IT'S TIME YOU DROP THE VILLAGE IDIOT ROUTINE.
Dude: I hope you are New Yorker because BMT Doug got on me because I got on Fat Al and I'm not a New Yorker. But everyone out there should know that some threads lead to other subjects. I see it all the time. When the clamor dies down, it just ends.
* after reading your VILLAGE IDIOT ROUTINE post & all of the stuf & irrelevant nonsense contained in your post sir,
I still do not see where what you said ( about everything I disagreed with you on ) never the less still has nothing whatsoever to do with the horrible gunfire assult on the N train What is your point? I have heard this anti black before.
" PEOPLE SHOT ON THE N TRAIN FOR TAKING VIDEOS etc is what the topic was & is lets go back to it please!
since we do not see eye to eye on anything it is best to remain on the topic of rail transit systems worldwide!
Exactly where did anyone here post anything 'anti-black'?
-Hank
the same courts that allowed patty hearst to rob & shoot up banks join a crimminal SLA ( brawley did not do that ) fool jimmy carter & even get a pardon for all of her crimes? she should still be in prison!
WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH PEOPLE BEING SHOT ON THE N TRAIN ?
I know what happened to Brawley:
NOTHING!!!
I lost all respect for Reverend Al when right after Michael Griffith was killed in the Howard Beach incident he stated he had "ABSOLUTE PROOF" that the driver on the Belt Pkway that hit Griffith was in on the whole thing with the thug teenagers that chased him. That would have been virtually impossible. No computer in the world could have orchestrated such timing for the driver to be travelling on the Belt at exactly the same time Griffith was being chased. That's without even considering that the driver was from Brooklyn, not Howard Beach, he was older than the kids, was a responsible court officer, and was Jewish, which none of the kids were. And of course Sharpton never presented the proof!!!
Who was he? I seem to be very forgetful. Can anyone fill me in?
Anyway, I love country life.
Who? More than one person was mentioned.
Actually, something did happen to Tawana. She smeared doody on herself, drew some funky pictures on herself with a marker, and crawled into a bag.
actually she was proved by medical tests many of us know the hospital where she almost died from almost being murdered from multiple rape !!
on the other hand patty hearst was the one who was the liar!!
WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH PEOPLE BEING SHOT ON THE N TRAIN ?
i know twanna brawley was mass raped & almost murdered !! she did not lie about the medical tests at the hospital where she almost died!
Patty hearst was the ultilate liar who ran away with the SLA shot up banks & killed people robbed businesses & SHOOTS them up goes on a big crime spree & even fooled jimmy carter & got a pardon for her crimes!
WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH PEOPLE BEING SHOT ON THE N TRAIN ?
She was never even CLOSE to dying. And regular sex will always leave evidence of 'rape'. ESPESCIALLY with an inexperienced teenager.
-Hank
Hank, you're trying to reason with the unreasonable. You might as well try to teach a silverback to dance.
who is TAWAN bRAWLEY?
Tell that to our colleague BMT Doug. His heart is in the right place, but hearing it from a New York police officer will carry a lot more weight than from a "foreigner" from California.
"foreingner" from california? I was born in NEW YORK CITY & proud of it man! I only live in cali temporary since 1959!!
I rode low vs & bmt Q s as a child!! r-1 thru r-9s too!! & the newark subway & philadelphia subway & pcc cars too !!
Salaam: What you don't understand is that my having been born in New York and having lived there for 14 years has been dismissed by others on this line when I comment on things happening there. They say since I have lived out of state for over 4 decades I should stay out of New York affairs. How's that for Chutspah? I am a native New Yorker and I pay no mind to what they say. But that is what they say.
4 decades out of New York? You're no more a New Yorker than Hillary at this point, but at least you have something to base such a claim on.
-Hank
Well thank God for that. To be put in the same category with her would be a descent into hell.
* i do not believe that just because i keep in touch with local affairs in atlanta detroit new york city & especially the subway system makes anybody unable to notice & or comment about happenings
that take place in any city town village etc. where you go to sleep at night live & work while commenting on local events in places like detroit & or atlanta while living on the west coast has always been a mystery as to why others who live in the places you may have an opinion & or comment on etc., then they go "postal" on you beats me why people are so defensive about where they live !
I am open as to why the hostile attitude to "outsiders" who live outside new york city & i tell you one thing sir, am i ever going to have FUN with project redbird !! cant wait any longer !!
I guess i agree with your post just wanted to say something!!
( oh well ) @ peace thankz salaamallah
we do know patty hearst lied dont you sir ? did she not shoot up banks & kill people shoot up businesses rob banks & then lie about a rape with no medical proff right? If you have lived during the past decades you would have not forgotten either or did you ? Brawley did not go on a crime spree lie about some sla rape even fooled jimmy carter !!
How come you forgot that sir ? why is patty hearst not in prison??!!!
& WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH PEOPLE BEING SHOT ON THE N TRAIN,sir?
Try over four Doug. But I do read the papers and watch CNN, and after those accused were exonorated, Fat Al (that's your title) never admitted he had made a mistake. When someone makes a mistake and will not admit it, then I have the right and will use that right to attack him. Anyone in California who does that is fair game for you or any New Yorker, so don't tell me I can't climb over Fat Al's carcass just b ecause I don;t live in New York. That assertion is ridiculous on the face of it.
PS----No, I'm not mad at you---I'm just in disagreement.
Will both option orders for the R142(A) be taken?
I already heard that 7209 and 7210 (the last two cars of the original R142 option order) have been taken in by Kawasaki(!)
Will these cars be numbered as it is, or will they be changed (to I assume 7759 and 7760, assuming Bombardier does make the R142 option order)?
If so, then twelve (R26) redbirds will have to say good bye, as their numbers will conflict (7750 to 7761).
Nick
word is, that Kawasaki gets the 7000 car numbers and bombardier gets the 6000 car numbers.
terrence
I think it's safe to assume the R-26s will all be no more.
Which of the following redbirds do you think is in the best condition for a museum piece? Please give car numbers also.
Group A - R26/R28/R29 Class
Group B - R33 Class
Group C - R33S/R36 Class (Including R36ML, excluding #9306 [for obvious reasons])
Methinks there could be many cars in Groups B and C that are in the best condition to be displayed as museum pieces. As For Group A, there are not many qualifiers there :(
... unless group A is used in a static display, underground, discussing the weaknesses of using Low Allow High Tensile steel for subway trains, and perhaps a lesson on how to apply Bondo.
--Mark
Since this question was left unanswered (I posted this about a week ago, and focus was shifted somewhere else)...
Does anyone in the know about this have a definite answer whether or not this modification has been done, or has it been cancelled?
If this modification has been finished, is the "new" 4260 on the road and if so, what car is it paired with?
Nick
Okay, this is a contest of some sort, but I will take a stab at it...
Car numbers for this R143 order will be (assuming 212 cars)...
3011 to 3222
That would be my guess, too.
Actually, it would be 3010-3221. There has been no Car 3010 since the R10's, and the R131's go up to 3009.
I don't think 7761-7980 would do. IIRC, the Redbirds were still running when this contract came into existance. However, if you see Car #7750 in The Bronx in a few years, it may be connected to 7749, not 7751.
Speaking of Car Numbers, the R142 order will be the first in NYCT history to carry the following numbers:
6900-7002,7030-7049
This means that when the R142+option order is complete, the only numbers between 0 and 10000 not carried by a NYCT revenue service subway car will be:
2925-2949, 6253, 6255, 6257, 6259-6299, 7960-7999, 0-99, 9770-9999
It's probably going to start with a # that ends in 1. That seems to be the way the MTA has decided to number cars and keeps in line with most other rail transit systems worldwide. The R143 mockup has the number 0000, but don't trust it since the R142s look nothing like the R142 mockup.
The R142 mockup looks like a cross between an R44, an R62, and a flatbed car.
Aren't the R143's taking the old R16 numbers (6300-6499)?
No, the R-142s (Bombardier) are taking 6300 (actually 6301) to 6499...and beyond.
David
Ahhhhh, ok. Thanks
The R143s might be 1001-1212 since the R46s were renumbered using the old R12, 14 and 15 numbers and their original numbers are now free. What was the need for renumbering the R44s and 46s?
I understood it was so the "new generation of cars" could begin with "100".
I suppose the R143s could be numbered 101-212. It makes sense, but I thought the TA would only use four-digit numbers.
Umm, isn't it 212 cars, so therefore 101-312? I hope so, since my school id# ends in 303 after the hyphen, it'd be interesting to have a subway car with my number.
My school Bryant HS ID # was:
It was a blast. It was eady to remember. I could write it down without looking at my program card. I found out the fact that I had an ID # that was the first in a class of subway cars that have plied the 7 line since the 64-65 World's Fair was when I looked in my August 1993 edition of Passenger Train Journal, which had an article on the New York City subway. There was a roster of subway cars on one page, and there was the number: 9346 listed in the R36 class. I've had some kind of fixation on this number ever since. Noticed my handle lately? Same origin.
Oops, that's right it should be 101-312. Well it was late at night when I was typing so I was tired and forgot to do my math on the car numbers. I should probably hit the hay now.
10/06/2000
[Oops, that's right it should be 101-312]
The days of passenger cars with 3 digits seems over. The purpose of renumbering the R-44 & R-46's was to have a fleet of 4 digit car numbers. Something to do with the car numbers being in the computer and being four digits.
Bill "Newkirk"
They were too lazy to find and link them in the proper order, so they renumbered them after they linked them to make it appear logical. Also, perhaps to fool the public into thinking they got a new train.
I actually didn't recognize them when I saw them without their blue striping and black fronts and with their new electronic side signs for the first time.
Do you know how long it would have taken to re-align the pre-GOH R44/46's. They'd STILL be trying to finish it.
They'd have to stage a Chinese fire drill for those cars to sort them all out.:-)
The R44/46's were renumbered due to the wacked out numbers given in a pre-GOH consist.
A pre-GOH 4 car R46 consist could have looked like this: 674-919-1103-852. The R44's were the same way.
Obviously it must have been very confusing to try to find a specific car in a consist until you got used to it. By renumbering the cars, it is now rather simple to locate a specific car now.
I have a program on my calculator that can find out which consist a car would be in, if everything were mathematically perfect in the subway system. Here's the cars it works for and how it works:
R44-46:
Car x has a number equal to a multiple of 4
(x)(x+1)(x-1)(x-2)
R142/142A:
Car x has a number equal to a multile of 5
(x-4)(x-3)(x-2)(x-1)(x)
R68A
Car x has a number equal to a multiple of 4
(x)(x-1)(x-3)(x-2)
Of course, there are sets that don't conform to this mathematical pattern, but at least it gives you an idea of where they should be.
I will guess they will go #8011 thru #8212.
wayne
I am just wondering if the wooden portion on the extreme north end of the northbound platform (and possibly the extreme south end of the southern platform) covers up the closed crossunder between sides of Bolyston station.
IAC, they did not do a good job hiding it, because it just looks different than the rest of the platform!
I am not sure whether the location you are describing is the former crossunder, but the location sounds right. It was behind the entrance stairwell outbound, and at the narrow part of the inbound platform. Narrow passage and stairways, with an iron pipe railing around the openings. Also look for the location of the original north stairways to the street at Boylston. The former openings are quite evident. There was also a passageway from the inbound platform to the Little Building. All in all there is a lot of history around that station if you know where to look!
My candidates for least used stations are (no particular order):
Fairmount on the Ridge Spur
Chinatown on the Ridge Spur
Millbourne
Berks
Any others?
The Ridge Spur's Fairmount and Chinatown stops hands down are the least used stops on SEPTA's subway lines. The Spur doesn't seem to be very popular considering that the future of Saturday service is questionable and Sunday service is gone. In fact, the future of the Spur looks questionable.
What SEPTA should do is funnel some bus lines into the Ridge Spur to bring them downtown. Those bus lines could be turned into light rail lines rather than have them use the narrow north-south streets. It would make the Spur far more useful than it is now.
I have always thought the Ridge Avenue Spur is a waste, since one can always take the Broad St. train to City Hall and get a MF line train to 8 St. It's a waste of electricity, car maintenance, station maintenance, and even ink to put that line on a map. And the train only runs every 15 minutes or so.
And I thought this 30 years ago, too.
Never, never call the Ridge Line (its a LINE damit) a waste. That little piece of track lets out subways qualify as a SYSTEM. Furthermore, the Ridge line is very historic in that it used to connect to the Bridge Line and the Locust St. subway. Also the ridge line contains both Flying Junctions on the SEPTA system (although one is out of service). If the Ridge Line trains made local stops my family would use it to go to Temple.
You said: >>Never, never call the Ridge Line (its a LINE damit)<<
But I say:
{cough} Subway-patriotism aside, even SEPTA calls it a Spur on it's maps, etc. -Except on the El, when the annoying voice calls it the Ridge Ave Subway.
Then again, they try to call the El the Blue Line and the Sub the Orange Line. Touche.
If you go by Railroad standards the Ridge Line would be a Branch. Ridge Branch dosen't sound too good.
The Ridge Spur used to make the local stops. SEPTA decided to make it express to beef up ridership. The problem is that most folks know they can transfer free to the El or walk from City Hall down Market St.
When the Center City Tunnel was being built, the Ridge Spur was taken out of service for several years and replaced with a quite infrequent bus service (in addition to route 61 regular runs on Ridge Ave). This was after the free transfer at City Hall was implemented. Most people thought the Spur would never return. It did.
The Spur does carry a decent volume in peak hours but not so much in the off-peak. At best I always believed that it should be purely a rush-hour operation (maybe even a 6-10 AM/3-8 PM one) but by no means is it needed all day. It would also seem most useful as a local in 8th/Market-Erie service to supplement the main line locals and stay out of the way of expresses. Of course, I think the main line locals should end at Olney when the expresses are operating also, mainly to simplify operation at Fern Rock (most patrons boarding at Fern Rock are going for the express and those who want a local can change at Olney).
If Ridge were a line as you csall it, SEPTA would have given it a separate color from the Broad St Subway. But they didn't and they call it a Spur. When I used to attend Drexel University, I rode the Ridge trains many times, or at least tried to (very limited Saturday and no Sunday service can make that hard).
I'm sorry, but Mr. Rabbin is right about the Ridge line. In its present state, it is a waste. Why do think its Spring Garden stop was shut down? Why has Saturday service on the line been threatened on and off and Sunday service been eliminated? Every time I rode it, there was almost nobody on. And as for its history, well, that was stripped from it in 1968, when the DRPA took over the Bridge line and Locust St Subway and the connections from the Ridge line were severed.
But like I said in a previous post, if several bus lines from the north and northwestern sections of Philly were converted to light rail and funneled into the Ridge line, that would make it more popular.
Was Spring Garden on the Spur ever heavily patronized (even in rush hours)?
I've heard that at one point that Spring Garden is an "exit-only" platform on one side, like the northbound platform at 145/Lenox. Is this true?
Nick
When The City dug the tunnel for the BSL, they should have dug a tunnel under Ridge Avenue NORTH of The Broad Street and Ridge Avenue intersection instead of South of the intersection. It would have made a nice extension into Manayunk and Roxborough. That's Philly's city planning for you.
To respond to a couple posts in one:
I believe Fairmount on the Ridge line and on the main line should be counted as one station. Even so, it still belongs on that list.
Also, I ride the Ridge Spur during Chinatown's peak hours, I would not be surprised if over 70 people get off there on the 3:21 PM Olney departure.
If the Ridge spur is turned back to local service, there should still be an express right after school dismissal for CHS and GHS. With peak loads at midday schedules, I think it would be needed.
70 people? That is a lot for a line only running two-car trains (even in rush hours?)
Is Chinatown the most heavily used station the Spur?
Nick
How does the configuration of Fairmount station go like?
I've heard that you can only transfer to/from the Spur platform to/from the northbound mainline platform. Is that true?
Nick
Yes, the Broad Street Fairmount station is a side platform local stop on a 4-track line (like 23 St. in NYC). The Ridge's Fairmount Avenue stop is a center-platform 2-track station. It connects directly to the northbound BSS platform only (kind of like Bway-Lafayette/Bleeker for the New Yorkers out there).
Also Chinatown is the most crowded stop because it is the ONLY stop not served by some other train. When people have any choice at all they take the main-line trains (MF, BS). And even Chinatown (originally called Vine St.) is only about 1/3 mile from 8th and Market.
Don't forget Huntingdon, Somerset, Tioga and Church on the El, and Logan, Fairmount and Ellsworth-Federal on the Subway. Race-Vine was once a candidate for this list but has been coming back remarkably lately.
I'm surprised Logan is a little-used station. There are plenty of residences and businesses there, at least as many as Wyoming and Hunting Park. Well, ya learn something new every day.
I've remembered that the M line at various times in the 1980s and 1990s using just 4 cars when it was a shuttle (or even a 2 part shuttle, Metropolitan - Wyckoff and Wyckoff - Myrtle/Bway).
I am unsure if the J during this time ever had short trains during the off-hours.
Were all lines since the 1970s (until mid-1990s[?]) subject to shorter trains during off-peak hours, and if so were there any odd formations of train lengths? I've heard of 7-car #6 trains from one person, which way cool and unusual!
Don't get me started on smorgasbord trains. For some it is an eye sore, for others, it is a treat.
The J train did run with 4 cars during off-peak hours. As you stated, the 6 ran with 7 car trains as late as 1996. The B ran with 6 car slant-40s for a time, too.
I think the D and A trains never ran with short trains. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
--Mark
Also the No.5 use to run 8 Cars Weeknights and 6 Cars on Weekends.
I remember once the 7 ran with 8 cars on weekends, and, of course, 11 on weekdays.
All the Queens line local stops have had big signs saying "Trains stop at center of platform" (or something like that) because at night and on weekends in the 1950s and 1960s GG trains were only 3 cars long.
There were 4 car trains at night and weekends on the D as recently as 1992/1993. I can place the dates since it was right after I bought my house, from which I can hear the D train go by, and I remember thinking it was great. Shorter trains meant less noise. (Not that I even notice.) They started it as either a safety or cost-cutting measure. I remember riding one saturday back then and couldn't understand the logic of having packed trains on the weekend. My wife and I just gave up on weekend subway trips. Too much of a hassle.
4-car trains ran on the C as well.
This had to be the Franklin Av. service when they did work on the Propspect-DeKalb line. When I was dating my wife back then, I used to get the 4 car R-68's at Franklin, and it gave me one less transfer to get back home in Midwood. But after that period, they stopped through running the trains during these reroutes, and used shuttle buses instead, with trains running light between Prospect and Franklin.
Hi Mark,
I remember in the mid 80's, that the D would run 8 cars in the afternoon on weekdays.
The D ran with 4 cars on weekends and midnights. So did the A running 4 car R44's exclusively back in 1996. Overcrowding however killed that. Back in 1998, they cut number 7 trains down to 5 cars at night. That lasted two weeks when passengers at 1 am were riding on the roof because the trains running 20 mins apart were jam packed. I remember seeing that as I was working the N at the time seeing #7 train passengers scrambling to find room to fit on at Queensboro Plaza. Within the past 5 years when they were cutting trains, the only B division line(that I saw)that they did not attempt to cut at night was the E.
I'm sorry, it was 6 cars on the number 7. Still, it has to go down as one of the worst decisions ever made in the TA.
Now that you mention it, I remember seeing a 6-car 7 train during the afternoon of August 4, 1977 while heading home from JFK after returning from Switzerland. Unless, of course, I was seeing things due to jet lag.:-)
I don't know about the 1970s, but through the 1960s, running shorter trains in off-peak hours was the rule rather than the exception on most NYC transit lines.
BMT southern division trains, which typically ran rush hour 8 car trains of standards or the equivalent - 4 triplexes typically dropped two of the cars (or one triplex) for midday and weekend service, and late night service was frequently a short train of only 3 standards.
I also recall 4 car trains on the D and F and 3 car trains on the GG on weekends.
Other lines cut cars in a similar manner.
-- Ed Sachs
I know that when I started riding the subways on a regular basis in 1977, all lines ran short trains during non-peak hours.
On the IRT:
"1", "2", "4" and "6" trains ran seven car trains all times except rush hours.
The "5" train ran five car trains all times except rush hours. I'm not sure what the "7" and the "3" train ran.
On the IND/BMT:
The "A", "D", "E", "F" ran six car trains (4 cars if they were 75' R44/46) all times except rush hours.
The "B", "CC", "GG", "J", "LL", "M", "N", "RR" trains ran eight car trains during rush hours and 4 car trains during all other times. The "AA" being a non-rush hour only service ran four cars as well.
This was practiced until around 1979. Then some of the lines started operating longer trains during normal hours only (6am-9pm weekdays only) or at all times.
During the late 70s, 3 trains were 5 cars long during weekends. IIRC, the conductor was stationed between the first and second cars. 7-car trains were the rule on the 1 and 2.
Back in the late 60s, I used to see the following on Saturdays:
A - 8 cars; E - 6 cars; AA - 4 cars. As Christmas approached, trains would be lengthened to 10 cars on the A and E, and 8 cars on the AA. D trains were generally 8 or 10 cars long.
I can vaguely remember 3-car AA trains on Sundays in May of 1967, although they may have been 4 cars.
I think that the G should be extended to Church Ave at least in some form or another, since the G will be permanently cut to Court Sq.
Good/useful crosstown line and time-saver, bad decisions, IMHO, by the brass to reduce it :(
I think it should be extended to Church as well, but only if the new V train were also to go there, which supposedly is not going to happen because the G alone would not be enough to handle the rush hour crowds in Brooklyn. This same V train is the reason the G is being cut back to Court Square.
Why is it that people think that if the G is extended to Church, that the F must run express.
I for one, don't think it should.
I do not want the F to run express, however I DO want the G to run to Church.
Rest assured, unless the V train is created as a Sixth Ave. local to Chruch Ave., the F will run express only over the dead bodies of the Carroll Gardens residents.
The only problem with extending the G is that it requires more cars, and those are in short supply. If the V were extended to Church someday the G would have to be also, but that is unlikely for the same reason.
Perhaps they should extend the G in off peak hours, when F service is less frequent.
I would guess even with the addition of the R-143 cars, the surplus R-40M/R-42s will all go towards increasing service on the Queens Blvd. line. But hopefully, when the R-160s (or whatever number they designate) arrive, they might actually save a few of the in-better-shape R-40/40M/42s the way they plan to save the best Redbirds, and that might give the MTA enough trains to at least resume rush hour F express service in Brooklyn, with the V and G trains running on the local track between Bergen and Church Ave.
(But hopefully, when the R-160s or whatever number they designate) arrive, they might actually save a few of the in-better-shape R-40/40M/42s the way they plan to save the best Redbirds, and that
might give the MTA enough trains to at least resume rush hour F express service in Brooklyn, with the V and G trains running on the local track between Bergen and Church Ave.)
That would mean increasing operating expenses to benefit people in Brooklyn, at a time when a substantial share of the subway fare will be going to pay TA (and LIRR and MetroNorth) debt. It would take a political revolution indeed for that to occur. Not only would Brooklyn's "reprenstatives" have to be organized and powerful enough to demand it, but they would also have to be willing to keep demanding even if offered a lesser sum of money in increased funding for "their" non-profits. I consider myself a visionary thinker, but some things are just too inconceivable to imagine.
Be optimistic -- we're talking 8-10 years down the line here, and perhaps operating revenues will continue to increase to the point where they will be able to afford the added expense...
...or maybe in 2005 New York City will elect a mayor from Park Slope :-)
The TA wants to make the G a 24 hour OPTO line when it gets permanently shortened to Court Square. The chance of the G being extended to Church Ave. with or without OPTO is very remote considering that the G is a lightly used line in that sector as it is.
As far as possible express service, it could only run from Smith/9 to Church. The express tracks from north of 4th Ave. to north of Bergen St. are permanently out of service. The Bergen Street tower after re-construction due to the tower fire, had the controls for the lower level taken out as well as the controls for the switch north of Bergen on the F and the switch south of Bergen which was subsequently dismantled.
I'm all for it. It would be nice to see
G TO CHURCH AV
on those R46 cars.
The service appeared in maps in the 1970's, it'd be nice to see it on a 2K1 map.
The G needs to run to Church Avenue because to get to the 4th Avenue subway, a G rider needs to get off at Smith-9th and take the F train 1 stop to get to 4th Avenue. If they only had a switch track near 7th Avenue, then the G could at least make it to there. But they don't so they won't.
I agree, only because it would allow the tower at Smith/9th to be closed. The tower at Church Ave. is always manned reguardless. Plus it eases the delays on people transferring from the BMT at 9th St. to the Crosstown line.
The two most glaring ones are IMO:
#1 170-foot platforms...BAD! Perhaps 180-foot platforms will be much better, at least to accomodate the 60' cars (and conforming to the possible end of ordering 75' cars)
#2 Single track north of Botanic Garden. This severely limits capacity. IMO, should be double tracked all the way, even to Franklin Ave terminal.
Nuff Said!
Nick
Hey, Nick. It seems as though you're several months late on the Great Franklin Shuttle debate.
However, your observations are indeed accurate.
Another mistake IMHO (although one that had been in place from the original line) is that the El should have been continued East over Fulton Street for a mere two blocks where the Shuttle would have terminated -- rightfully -- at the Nostrand Ave. express station.
IMHO, that's why the Franklin doesn't have -- and never had -- the larger riding conditions that it could have had. It's terminus at a local station is unfortunate by any standards.
BMTman
And Mr. BMTman, hope you turned your calendar for a personal surprise,
that's right a R-32 on the Franklin Ave. Shuttle.
Mr t__:^)
If you're talking about the pic on the 10/2000 NYCS calendar, those were pre-GOH R32's approaching the Park Place station long before the reconstruction.
Even when the FAS did use the 32's, they were in conjunction with either the 11's or another set of 32's, with no access to one end car.
BTW, in the pic mentioned above, at the Dean Street station, are R10 cars.
R10's on the Franklin Shuttle? I've never heard of any R10's operating on any BMT line other than the Jamaica (#15) line. Perhaps Mr. R10 can confirm that.
I believe they did operate there for a brief time in the late 60's or early 70's (could be wrong, but I thought I saw a photo of one on the FS).
BMTman
A couple of R10s showed up on the "B" line somewhere in the 1970 area.
Can't confirm any on the Franklin Shuttle.
wayne
There were R-10s on the B even earlier, in 1968. Although I never saw them there, there are photos in the car section, and in each case, the cars in the 1968 photos are wearing the earlier teal-and-white racing stripe paint scheme.
According to the caption, it was an ERA fantrip using the R10s on the shuttle. They never ran there in revenue service.
I have personally ridden R-10s on the Brighton Express in the 1980s. They were placed there after the R-46s were removed (because Brighton residents complained of excessive vibration from the trains).
--Mark
I rode on D train of my beloved speedsters once in 1979 or 1980, only it was along CPW and the Grand Concourse. It was strange to see them there, to say the least.
You should have seen these beasts in "F" service! ZOOM ZOOM ZOOM!
I miss the R-10s and the greenbottles should never have been scrapped.
wayne
The only express stretch I ever rode them on was CPW - many, many times. Never had a chance to ride them along the Queens or Fulton St. express tracks. The Rockaway rocket ride in 1969 made up for that.
This train (I guess back round 1981) REAAAAALLLY cranked it up on the "F" line. I guess it got up to or maybe over 50 MPH. In the straightway before Parsons it was especially fast. Lightning fast even on the broad curve between Sutphin & Van Wyck (we were express ALL THE WAY QP-179th St). Lead motor was 3080. Paint scheme: MTA Silver/Blue with excessive graffitti inside and out.
wayne
I often wonder how those R-10s on the B handled the 4th Ave. express stretch. They probably took it 50 mph or thereabouts as well.
I wonder...
Why were the R11's retired before they could replace the cars on the FAS with R68's? It was rather awkward to get a train with one car closed off. Maybe they should have replaced the 11/32 combo with an R46 AA set, take the R32's and put them on the G line.
Now that the 68's run on the line, there's no need.
The R11 were out of there long before the R68 came along - the replacements for the R11 were dingy-looking Pre-GOH R27's and R30s, with a few R32 sprinkled in.
wayne
And we hopes it wasn't #3669! OUCH!
wayne
I completely agree. The line should've been 2 tracks at least thru Park Place, and the stations should've been set up so expansion to full 600' would be relatively easy.
600 feet? I don't think there's the need or ever will be. Would you settle for 300 feet.
If the Manhattan Bridge ever closes down completely.
It does look like they left provisions for future extensions of the platforms, and the second track.
If the Manhattan Bridge is closed to subway trains, the need for 600' platforms would be essential, as Franklin Ave. would provide an alternate terminal for the Brighton line.
Never never never never never never never will happen.
What? The bridge closing? It CAN happen, if you fully understand the precarious condition it's currently in.
The condition is completely overstated.
OH yeah? Do explain ...
Chris,
It's been explained many times. The southside has just undergone a major overhaul, and the northside is next. It is in much better condition now, than when it was in full use in the early 80's. Why? Because the bridge was neglected and virtually uninspected for 70 years. If a disaster was going to happen, it would have happened then.
Furthermore, a personal friend of mine, is involved in the re-re-re-construction. The bridge is fully able to handle both sides being open, at the present time, although in about another two or three decades, will have to go through more reinforcement, and possible service disruptions.
Whether it is allowed to fully re-open in '04 depends on the city. It will be a political decision, whether or not full service is restored. It will be an inexusable excuse, if the city says "No" after 20 years of restoration. They will have a lot to explain to Sea Beach Fred and myself !
JDL
I can just see a "Bridge Disaster in New York" headline in the papers.
In Fantasy Land? It isn't happening, it's all hyberbole.
Like I said, never. If the Man. bridge were to fall down tomorrow, they'd just send the trains down Broadway via the tunnel and they would construct a tunnel under the East River to eventually resume 6th Av. service. Going via Broadway would still be a one seat ride whilst going to Franklin Av. would be two trains and only the C local would serve it. Or they would make the A's go local which would boil the blood of everyone riding the A.
And disrupt service on the "showcase" A line? Fuhgeddaboutit.
Zman, that's exactly why the TA SHOULD HAVE spent another million or two on extending the Franklin Shuttle another two short blocks east where it would've tied in nicely with the Nostrand Avenue stop, allowing for 8th Ave. express train access.
A grand opportunity was missed (such as is the case quite often with NYCT).
BMTman
>If the Man. bridge were to fall down tomorrow, they'd just send the trains down Broadway via the tunnel...Going via Broadway would still be a one seat ride whilst going to Franklin Av. would be two trains and only the C local would serve it.
But you can only fit so many trains through the tunnel, so a two seat ride is much better than packed trains at large headways. (The bridge was fully closed rush hour 7-29-92, so I got to see what it was like--horrible. Since a lot of people change to the IRT, they already have a two seat ride, and for those who would need the IND, they would have a much easier connection at Franklin than in Manhattan.
>Or they would make the A's go local which would boil the blood of everyone riding the A.
And disrupt service on the "showcase" A line? Fuhgeddaboutit.
This is the emergency plan (The E would be sent in as the express replacing the C)
>they would construct a tunnel under the East River to eventually resume 6th Av. service.
It is much cheaper to upgrade the Shuttle (there are provisions in the layout for this) than to build a new tunnel, which was first suggested 47 years ago, and was always shot down because of the money. (The most you would get would be the Rutgers connection, perhaps).
The upgrade of the FS will never happen. They would have to not only create 10 car platforms, they would have to either totally tear up Park Place to create an island plat for two tracks or have to build a second platform at Park Place, a second platform and track would have to be constructed at Franklin Ave. or the congestion would be horrendous if regular D service were to run to Franklin, and you would have to knock down the new tunnel wall at Botanic Garden to lengthen the platform. Also, the line would have to be shut down again for a lengthy period of time to perform this work or it would never get done. And there would still wouldn't be a one seat ride into Manhattan.
Their best option as far as constructing something short of a new East River tunnel would be to construct an extension from Chambers St. on the J line via the layup tracks which used to serve the Chambers loop train, over to the current roadbed of the D line at the Man. bridge portal. The tunnel already exists, it would just have to be curved a bit by the portal to allow trains to enter the Grand St. station and they would have to extend the platforms at Broad, Fulton and Chambers to hold ten cars which would be a lot easier than tearing up the FS and still not having a one seat ride to Manhattan.
The FS plan would be a total waste of money and time. Why spend millions to send people to Franklin Ave. when you can spend the same money on a plan to send them into Manhattan? Just like that stupid airtrain, they are spending all that money to construct it and it still isn't serving the purpose of giving people a one seat ride to JFK from the city. They'll eventually build an extension to run it into Penn Station but that won't happen until the PA finds out that it's a big money loser because people just won't use it because it's inconvenient.
Like I said, the FS plan will never happen. Not only would I take bets on this but I would lay odds. Preposterous.
Your idea would do nothing to solve the problem, as the D route you are proposing would have to share the same track with the M,N,Q,R from Dekalb Av. through the Montague St. tunnel. Putting temporary wooden platform extensions (they did this on the Brighton line during repairs) at the Botanic Gardens and Franklin Av. stations (opening doors of first two cars only at Park Pl.) could solve the problem of train lengths. Restoring fourth track between Park Pl. and Franklin Av. could cut somewhat the 8 min. headway. Relatively little investment would be needed for this.
10/06/2000
[you would have to knock down the new tunnel wall at Botanic Garden to lengthen the platform. ]
If the platform at Botanic Garden were to be lenghtened, the landmark brick tunnel that dates back to the steam days need bot be disturbed. Just extend the platforms south where is plenty of room. Of course let's not hold our breaths, this is unlikely to happen.
Bill "Newkirk"
>they would have to either totally tear up Park Place to create an island plat for two tracks or have to build a second platform at Park Place, a second platform and track would have to be constructed at Franklin Ave.
There is already space for a second track at both stations. At Park, They would only have to move the bridge to the stationhouse and the ramps to the rear exit. I imagine there might be empty space under the platform (adjacent to the street level fare control area) they can build a stairway up to the platform from. At Franklin, the bumping block for the second track simply wouldn't be as far north as the other one, and at both stations there is room to extend the platforms south. (At Botanic Gardens they would have to remove a concrete room at the S. end of the n/b platform.
>And there would still wouldn't be a one seat ride into Manhattan.
Why spend millions to send people to Franklin Ave. when you can spend the same money on a plan to send them into Manhattan?
Remember, this would be an EMERGENCY situation. It has nothing to do with maximum convenience. They have to do whatever they can with the available tracks, and it would still probably cost less than the Nassau idea you mentioned (newly dug tunnel under Manhattan Bridge Plaza and tracks from the end of the stub tracks to the Chrystie portal, plus the realignment and station extension you mentioned--all of this involving boring through rock), which would still force all trains through Montague.
600 feet? I don't think there's the need or ever will be. Would you settle for 300 feet?
The TA only planned to operate two trains on the FS. So they saved costs and single tracked the line except Botanic Garden. Even if there is a breakdown, there is enough room for the second train to key a door into the station at the single track stations so two tracks aren't necessary.
Personally, I have nightmares thinking that I will have to work the line. It is a risky line for a T/O to operate due to the signal system installed. Timers throughout the entire line and if you hit one of them, Control Center hears an alarm. NO THANKS!
But the layout makes some sense considering that there shouldn't be a big boom in passenger usage of the FS.
...barring any total shutdown of both sides of the Manny B. Then, look out.
"...there shouldn't be a big boom in passenger usage of the FS."
I happened to ride the Franklin Shuttle for the first time since its reconstruction this past Labor Day. The trains were packed to the rafters, probably because of a West Indian festival that attracted thousands of people to that neighborhood.
Right. But that's only one day out of 365.
Zman, I ride the FS once or twice in every couple of weeks to see how things are going over there. I can say with much certainty that the two-car trains are indeed packed during the evening rush hour.
There also tend to be alot of school kids riding the Franklin, probably due to the nearby Clara Barton High School and a School for the Deaf over on Eastern Parkway across from the Botanic Gardens.
I haven't ridden the Shuttle during non-rush hour (weekday) periods, but I would gather the passenger loads are pretty light.
BMTman
I'm sure that the rush hour can fill up the two cars pretty quickly. During the off hours excluding nights, the cars have a good amount of people on board but still there is ample seating available. According to TA stats, 10,000 riders use the line every weekday. There are 236 one-way trips scheduled on the line every weekday(118 in each direction). Dividing the amount of passengers by the amount of trips equals an average of 42 passengers per run. Thus it does not warrant extending the platforms for the line. Of course the bulk of the rides occurs during the rush hour but the rush hour volume doesn't approach the maximum capacity of 500 passengers for the two cars.
Hey, George! I was one of those thousands at the West Indian Day Parade and took the Franklin Shuttle to get back to Canarsie (A to the L at B'way/Junction).
Who knows, maybe we were on the same train.
BMTman
THE INSTITUTE OF ELECTRICAL AND ELECTRONICS ENGINEERS, INC.
NY Section
Rail Signal System Innovations Forum
October 18, 2000, 6:00 to 8:00 PM Host : Nortel Networks 320 Park Avenue, (50th ST) NYC
The IEEE NY Section Vehicular Technology and Communication Society Chapters will co-sponsor a technology-sharing forum on rail signal systems. Lead panelists will explain and answer questions on the Communication Based Train Control (CBTC) system that is being developed for the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority and the new signal system being developed for the Southern New Jersey Light Rail Transit System with a shared Right-of Way for freight service.
Lead panelists are John LaForce and Brian Mlddleton. John is an IEEE Member , Vottng Member on the IEEE CBTC Standards Committee, and Deputy Chief Engineer Operations for SEPTA. Brian is the Booz-Allen & Hamilton Rail Systems Project Manager working on the NJ Transit Southern New Jersey Light Rail Transit System. Systems engineers, suppliers, installers, and operators are invited to share insights.
Future IEEE NY Section, Vehicular and Communication Society Technology Sharing forums are being planned for:
. Fiber Optic Communication networks for Rail Vehicle control,
. NYC Transit R-143 Rail Car propulsion, control, and signage,
. Automatic Bus Location and Control Systems, and
. Wayside and Railcar PA and Customer Information Systems
There is a $35.00 charge for the forum and refreshments commencing 5:30 PM.
Advance registration is required for admission.
IEEE Members and non-members may register for the October 18, 2000 forum by sending $35.00 checks payable to IEEE NY Section to RT&T Inc., 30 Woodiake Dr., Croton-on-Hudson, NY 10520.
IEEE Members please provide membership number and indicate interest in participating on one or more of the planned forums.
Anyone remember the days before the PC Expo when it was a IEEE event ?
Went there once as a teenage with my Uncle Bob. Didn't know the group still existed ... amazing what you learn here !
Mr t__:^)
Modern life offers few certainties. Death and taxes are said to be two, but in fact they're not certain. Residents of Monaco and some offshore tax havens pay no taxes at all. And as far as death is concerned, I have just one word to say: Elvis.
But one absolute 101% certainty is the fact that NYC residents think differently from people everywhere else in the country. Why, I don't know. Undetected impurities in the Delaware and Croton reservoir systems might be to blame. Whatever the cause, peoples' brains simply work in a unique manner once you enter city limits.
Some of these differences are fairly harmless. Among other things, typical New Yorkers:
- know how to eat sushi with chopsticks
- would never call a Broadway musical a "play," or vice-versa
- can immediately tell the difference between a Monet and a Manet
- can recite a list of fine country inns in the south of France.
Ah, but there's a downside too. Typical New Yorkers:
- believe that all social problems can be overcome by throwing enough taxpayer dollars at them
- think that answerable-to-shareholders corporations will pay huge premiums to operate in Manhattan because of all the cultural attractions
- pride themselves on getting terrific deals when they pay $2k/mo for tiny apartments in armpit neighborhoods
- (keeping things on-topic) believe that because subways are the best way for getting around Manhattan, also believe that they're the answer to all the nation's transportation problems.
I don't know what, but there are at this time several fire trucks parked at Queens Blvd and 63Dr, and Firemen have entered the station.
-Hank
DOH! I exited 63rd Drive about 20 minutes before! (It wasn't me...) BTW, the MetroCard Bus was there.
A garbage (solar in TA lingo) can fire, quickly extinguished.
Had anyone kept up with the west side redevelopement issue? Should the 7 get extended to the Javits Center? Would a new north-south line be needed if the west side were to be devleoped, or are office and apartment towers going to be built no matter what? It seems as if all of that happened on the east side before (and if) the 2 Ave. Subway is ever built.....
As a subway person, I say, of course the #7 should be extended west to 10th Avenue, then south to 14 St, then east to 8th Avenue, at a minimum. OR the L can be extended up 10th Avenue to 42 St (or both as far as I'm concerned, using moving platforms to please stand clear of as trains enter and leave the station).
There would be the following stations, if I were the czar: 42&9th, 40&10th (right after the curve south), 34 St., 23 St., 16&10th (just before the curve east). And they would be side platform (just because I like the way they look). Okay, let's break ground...
Because of the Lincoln Tunnel conflict, I'd probably turn the 7 south at Ninth Ave., with a stop for the Port Authority between 40th and 38th Sts., and then sent it west across 36th St. to the Javits Center, which would leave only the tunnel feeder road at Dyre Ave. (not that Dyre Ave., the other one between 30th and 42nd streets in Manhattan) for the digging crews to contend with.
It would be nice if they could extend the 7 train south along 11th Ave. past the Javits Center towards 23rd St., and from there elevated along West Street to WTC. That would allow the rest of the public better access to the planned Hudson River Park as well as filling a gap in subway service on the lower far west side, but just getting the Flushing line over to 11th Ave. is going to be a major ordeal, so if the MTA can just get that done, I'd call it a success.
Dyre Ave. (not that Dyre Ave., the other one between 30th and 42nd streets in Manhattan) for the digging crews to contend with.
You wouldn't have to mention the one in the Bronx if you had spelled it Dyer Avenue as the Manhattan one is spelled.
Jack, knock it off with the grammar police routine.
What grammar?
You used the wrong Dyre/Dyer.
Which changed the meaning in what way? Turned it into a completely different street name that was unrecognizable to other readers on the board? If there had been a 'K' added to the word, as in Dyker Beach Park, then your correction would have been more than just Felix Ungerish-nitpicking, but it wasn't.
Anyway, the point stands on the 7 route to Javits Center -- zig-zagging it up Ninth Ave. removed the Lincoln Tunnel main entrance portal obsticle and leaves only the feeder road coming from 30th Street to deal with.
Yeah, I think that we all dream of a Subway line down the west and lower west side, but they estimate that it's going to cost $700 million just to get it out to the Javits Center. Like the U.S., the western "hinterlands" will be the last area to be developed and the new road up the west side is neither a highway nor designed to have anything running over it.
What this boils down to is that it will cost billions to get Subways on the west side, east side, to the airports, to underserved areas, etc......and the funding just isn't there. New York did it in the past and other cities around the world are doing it, so we need to come up with some way to fund these projects. It's how the city grew in the first place, and how it will grow again!
The 7 will be extended to 11th Ave. only if the west side stadium for the Jets or whomever is built. No new north/south service on the west side will happen in any of our lifetimes so forget about that.
I will soon come out with R142 cars for BAHN. I was able to create the car graphics for the cars, and was able to use the BAHN car editor to draw my graphical representation of these new cars. (And I did it without knowing a word of German!) Also, there's a Windows version of BAHN in the Beta stages, BAHN 3.70.
How about a standalone Java version? :-)
of BAHN or the R142 cars?
Something I've always thought about was this:
Render a bunch of towers in Train Dispatcher 2, have a number of users on the web load one tower each, and then have the trains passed from one tower to another down the line over the web. A virtual railroad!
Click on the picture below to get to my site. Then, take the express train to TP, then take the Main Line to the Download Center. Then, look under BAHN Stuff.
It's awesome, I've operated it from end to end on my IRT board and it made it the round trip sucussfully (On the 2)!
Trevor Logan
Well I'm glad you like it.
Do I need to download a routemap first? ;-)
If you mean a BAHN layout, there are some layouts you can download on another one of nycsubway.org's pages. This is the one. If you mean like a GIF or JPEG image of a subway map, no.
If you mean a BAHN layout, there are some layouts you can download on another one of nycsubway.org's pages. This is the one. If you mean like a GIF or JPEG image of a subway map, no.
You can download the car editor, the latest version of BAHN (3.70 beta), and a graphics editor on the Official BAHN Info Page, which is linked on the page that the above link points to. (BTW Dave, the link is a bit old. The new address is http://www.jbss.de/hpg_eng.htm)
The link on this thread no longer works.
Does anyone have a copy of these R142s?
Anybody read this funny book about the NYC subways? It's called "The Underground Guide to New York City Subways" by Dave Frattini. It is a station-by-station guide to the entire system, discussing quality of the lighting, cleanliness, nearby food, etc. It also discourses on the utility of each train line. And it is written really funny, a little young in style for me, but otherwise really good.
Everyone has read it and from a historical and even current subway information standpoint it is a MESS!!! I counted at least a dozen errors. Dave Frattini saysin the dedication that "If you want something done right, do it yourself". To him I say, if you want to do a book using the subway do better research. I read someplace he recently got a degree. If the reasearch he did even comes close to what he did for this book I question what marks he got.
Some errors:
Page 2 "At approximately 9 AM ....., the first subway rolled out of the City Hall station....
--the first train left at 2:35 PM.
Pege 3 - He mentions the Transit Authority a couple times relating to 1905. The TA did not come into existance until 1953.
This book is not exactly flying off the shelves.
Personally I give this book a "B" (for borrow - not buy)
Guess you don't think it's funny.
Should I have?
I think Mr. Frattini needs lessons in Transit History (of which any of us could probably provide).
the booths where the transit people work at (located at the front of the station) there is a sticker that has a R110 and a R142 picture on it, saying RAPID TRANSIT OPERATIONS on the bottom....
BTW if you didnt know, when the R142 leaves the station you never hear the click, clack, click clack on the tracks.......and when it gets ready to leave it sounds like its charging up to leave....
It's not an R110 and an R142. It's an R130 (#2 train, AKA R110A) and an R131 (A train, AKA R110B). Strangest thing is that these cars are rarely seen! The R130's aren't seen at all!
...and the R131's are never seen on the A line, either. The will retire running on the C line.
have you ever heard a train make a funny noise???
then post it on the subtalk message board
Oh, there was an E train of R-1/9s at 42nd St. once which started squeaking as it took power. It sounded as though a flock of sea gulls had found their way onto the platform; I almost wanted to duck for cover. A few seconds later, the train moaned, groaned, and grunted on its way.
Occasionally, I'd get a train of old-timers whose bull and pinion gears would sing two pitches harmoniously a major third apart, exactly the same as those fighter plane sounds you hear on TV and in the movies. It sounded beautiful to my ears, anyway, especially that one southbound A train as it started up from 59th St.
Then there was this train of BMT standards whose bull and pinion gears, just as they groaned past C# below middle C, would emit an added twist: an "awwwwwrrrrmoooooore" sound. I only heard it on one ride, and it repeated itself at each stop.
Of course, my beloved R-10s had a sound all their own - rolling thunder.
I loved how R16's sounded at full speed. Flat wheels really accentuated the "clickety-clack" sound I remember as a child.
Hey, try the LIRR some day if you want flat wheels :)
I remember freshman (freshperson?) year comming home on MN. There was STILL a stretch of jointed track outside of New Haven. Fun how the M-2s would bounce and clunk over it. Oh yeah, and the Peck bridge project runaround. You'd never seen those things take such sharp turns before.
I STILL love the noise Arrows make when they start up and leave the terminal. All those lowers suddenly turning on is neat.
E-60's also increase in blower noise as they leave, it almost sounds like a diesel for a few secs!
ACMUs at speed sound cool too.
I barely remember the old subway cars (R-10, etc). Was a little kid back in the 80's :(
I love the Arrow's hum which I hear is common among MU Cars.
You would have loved the R-10s on the A, especially if you like seeing local stations being reduced to blurs.
That would be 25 MPH :o> (sorry!)
Back in 1997 I was on a Slant "B" train going through DeKalb on the express track - lead motor was #4208 (the "GHOST" car) and when it made the turn from Flatbush into Fulton it made a hooting sound, very much like a PATH train, particularly the K class. Only time I've ever heard a NYCT train sound like a K-car.
wayne
i looooove the whistling noise from the good ol redbirds.....
The most unusual subway train sound sequence, in my opinion, was that of the air compressors on the R10's and 12's. I can still imitate them and used to have a large audience for same at many Association of Railway Museum conventions. They wanted to hear it over and over again...in return, I never had to buy a drink at those events. Fair enough!
Then, of course, there was the Lo-V door closing/locking sequence and the brake application sequence for a running R1/9. Very fine and unique sounds! Shall we discuss a Lo-V digging into its pinion gears on the hill up to 86th and Lex after dropping a full octave at the 77th Street section break?..and the pop of the breaker and the raising of the interior illumination about three car lengths into the 86th Street platform? Or, how about the riot of pinging pinions on the flying Lo-v's in that long stretch on the Lex Express through 59th Street after posting it at the last dowhnill timer (no station there in those days)down to the big brake application just short of the double slip switches at 43rd St? Full out, all happy pinions as though the train were trying to outrun itself.
Mentioning the R1/9's going full gear climbing up underneath Coogan's Bluff to 145th Street's lower level southbound, or flying out of the Harlem River underwater tunnel northbound, slamming though the facing switches landside, running full open on the gentle curve without collision walls through 161st Street and then running full speed with collision wall reverberation through that tighter leftward curve to get under the Concourse and then climbing up the long hill to 167th Street is totally unnecessary. Anyone can imitate National Pneumatic door closers and R1/9 door engines closing and locking with the air sequence.
We won't attempt to bore you by imitating the R1/9 ceiling fans - everyone does that. Then there were the Lo-V air pumps - a light, almost feminine ticking sound emitting from burly beasts.
If you want to get away from the tunnels and els, there was always the delightful syncopation of steel wheels on steel jointed rails atop wood hanging over tidal water as the LIRR hustled over the long trestle to Rockaway past great places like The Raunt and Big Egg Marsh. When you recall the sounds you can feel that salt water breeze.
Do trains make the darndest sounds? Sometimes. Do train buffs make the darndest sounds? All the time!
In Shoreline's great days, we used to teach new operators how air brakes worked by teaching them to make air brake sounds along with the instructors (I was one at that time). In order to make the sounds, your body has to function the same way the brake cylinder does in a straight air car. Worked very well!
Isn't in wonderful that our subways are becoming virtually noiseless? Peace at last!
Ah, yes, the air compressors on the R-10s. Nothing else could quite compare. Not to mention their doors. Everything about those cars was fast.
Naturally, the marvelous sounds of the R-1/9s added up to one glorious serenade.
10/03/2000
Did anyone mention the "whistling" brake release of the as delivered R-46? or how about the GOH R-46 release sound. Two of the silliest sounds I've ever in the subway.
Bill "Newkirk"
I loved that shhhhhhhhh followed by that ascending whoooooooooooooooo sound. It is analagous to the R-46s the way the rapid compressor sound was to the R-10s.
Does somebody farting on a train next to you count?
The door "warnings" on San Francisco's BART system sound EXACTLY like someone letting out a long, windy fart. Of course, on NYCTA's hard plastic seats, one must be careful to not apply much pressure when dispersing their bodily gases -- the plastic seats tend to accentuate the noise.
01/04/2000
[Of course, on NYCTA's hard plastic seats, one must be careful to not apply much pressure when dispersing their bodily gases -- the plastic seats tend to accentuate the noise.]
This was never a problem when rattan seating was in vogue !
Bill "Newkirk"
I miss the hum of the Westinghouse 1454A traction motors, the low F# or high A-flat horns. I miss the hum of the MG sets. All of these sounds were common on the Almond Joys. And speaking of horns (or should I say, whistles), what's a so-called state-of-the-art fleet like the M-4's doing with whistles instead of horns? If anything, they should have those horns from the AEM7's.
I would have to say the sound I miss the most is the moaning and groaning from the spur-cut bull and pinion gears used on prewar equipment. Modern equipment uses helical-cut gears which are much quieter.
R-6-2 GE fans going "glglglglglglglglglglglglg" and any R-1, R-4,
R-6(1-2-3), R-7 or 7a, or R-9 and that little "PFSHT" under the transverse seat as the train prepares to move; it's some kind of valve or cock I forget what.
wayne
That's the load sensing valve. You'd hear it a split second after the doors closed. It's plainly audible on heypaul's tape.
Before they were overhauled, the R-46s used to 'whistle' when the air brakes were released. After the GOH, they'd groan instead.
The R-44s sound as if they're passing gas when their air breaks are released.
Post-GOH R-32s emit a long, downward whine when decelerating that can be heard from the street above. So do the 62As.
The 68s often emit a high-pitched whine when they're slowing down- which is virtually all the time. It sounds like it could be feedback from the PA.
PATH cars from the seventies, the ones with two-tone beige multi-directional seats, used to 'knock' a lot.
10/04/2000
[The R-44s sound as if they're passing gas when their air breaks are released.]
After the "gas passing" sound the final burst of air sort of mimics the release of the old R1-9's. Not the same but similar.
Bill "Newkirk"
I operated an R44 on the A line that sounded like a jet airplane when the trains brakes were applied. That was cool. I also like it when the motors make a "whirr whirr" sound every time the wheel turns.
Anytime a train operates or sounds unusual, I like it. It takes some of the monotony out of the job and it gives the car a little personality. Just like car #6120(R46) which gives the highest pitched "ding dong" in the system. And it's mate #6121 has a very low pitched "ding dong". When you hear them both chime together, it's like buff music!
If you think #6120 and #6121 are bad, give an ear to the SOUREST bell in the R46 fleet, just one car down the bunch: #6119.
(((((SOUR!!!!))))
I wonder what #6118 sounds like..
ALSO: #5927: "The Fixx: 'Stand Or Fall'" A followed by F.
wayne
6118 is actually normal believe it or not. But 6120 is my favorite car to operate out of, especially on the F or R. I open my window and listen to the chime "bweeeeng bwooong".
6104 is cool too. It gives the same chime as the old style R44.
Hey, Wayne, should we be on the lookout for 6119 on the 26th?:-)
I suppose so; it could be on the "F" or the "R" (don't think the "G"), or perhaps even the "E" these days; quite a few R46 showing up there for whatever reason.
wayne
Some of our LRVs in Denver have out-of-tune chimes. Nothing like hearing a series of beep-beep-beeps with the F# out-of-whack.
An r38s brakes hunmmed to the beginning of simcity 2000
This may have been discussed before but what the heck - we'll discuss again!!
There is an ad for Beth Israel featuring a young woman sitting in the Lotus position on a subway seat.
I have been unable to read the signal plate in the window to her left
and was wondering if anyone knows where this photo was taken. There are 2 sets of signal heads in the window which is adding to the conufsion. (Then I would know if the train was made of of R44, R46, or R68/68A cars).
Allan
The train is definitely an R-44 or 46 look closely at the light fixtures above her head. You can see a bit of the tan formica wall too. I feel it may be an R-46 on the F or G around Smith-Ninth. Just A guess.
Peace,
ANDEE
Enough is Enough, We all have to admit tempers is beginning to flare. I'll definately admit, I'm one of them. I apologize for my actions to the board, BUT I will not continue to be slandered by said poster(s). Thus reflecting my attitude.
Bygones.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Here's an idea:
Any SubTalker who has a comment about another SubTalker... email it directly to him/her and keep it off the board. I think that will help
keep this board pleasant for all of us.
Speaking for myself, I'm "here" to learn and exchange information about the subways and related topics. The rest of the nonesense
I can do without. Thanks.
There will be a big GO on the IRT this weekend:
2: Downtown service run on the Lex from 149-Nevins
3: From 148-TS
4: All stops in Brooklyn to NL
5: Downtown Service run on 7Av Express to Chambers then use the SF loop to BG.
All stations from Park to Nevins will not have downtown service. Do any one know what type of work is being done during this GO???
3Train#1977Mike
Hey Mike!
Are you going to ride the 5 thru the loop over the weekend? A must see for subway buffs alike.
As to what they could be doing, you're guess is as good as mine. The 2 runs through South Ferry at Night because of that same work.
Nothing new to report on the R-142 end, other than 6306 sticking her shiny head out of the barn at East 180th St.
-Stef
Last weekend I took a trip down
memory lane.. and a 2 thru South Ferry..
Quite a view, I tellya.. felt like 1985
all over again...
Damn skippy, I am!!!!!! Hopefully Ill get some film to take pics. I will railfan on the 5 loop to BG........
3TM
I went through the area last night. They are doing a concrete pour on the downtown track at park Place. The new ties are in place and it is awaiting the concrete.
Somebody take some pictures and post them for me! I'll be stuck here in Tacoma, America's No. 1 Wired City (or at least that's how our ad campaign goes)
Intersting announcement:
This is Rector st. 5 to Bowling Green, South Ferry next.
This is South Ferry. 5 to Dyre Ave, Bowling Green next.
Of course, maybe they'll just run light from Chambers to Bowling Green like on emergency reroutes.
The TA management doesn't want to hold things up for the 1 getting into South Ferry, so expect that the 5's will run express from Chambers St to Bowling Green CARRYING passengers from 7th Avenue who need to connect with the 2 or the 4 to Brooklyn (at Bowling Green).
-Stef
The switch from the uptown local track to the express track north of 125th St has been cut out. Is a major GO for Lexington Av on the way?
-Stef
This morning while waiting for a 4, a 3 pulled in and I just happen to look at the motorwoman and she had a lit cigarette in her hand. I know this practice is not allowed. What are the penalties for this type of action??
3Train#2141Mike
Lung cancer, heart disease, and eventual death.
I don't know the penalties but there are a number of transit supervisors on this board so unless you enjoy getting people in trouble you shouldn't post things like this on the board.
By the way, a short story about motormen smoking. When I was a little tyke I was on a BMT Standard with my grandmother on the Sea Beach. Some of you oldtimers remember the green cab door had a little window on it on the standards where you could watch the motorman drive. I noticed he was smoking and knocked on the door-when he opened I said "You're not allowed to smoke on the train. He replied: "Little boys should be seen and not heard" (I know, Pigs, thats ageism)
I don't know the penalties but there are a number of transit supervisors on this board so unless you enjoy getting people in trouble you shouldn't post things like this on the board.
An interesting response from someone in your line of work. Actually, it's kind of interesting in any case. Think about the underlying cultural bias it reflects, pretty much universal in this country, against the enforcement of most laws and regulations. Since we made these laws and regulations ourselves, through our elected representatives, it it would be more logical to believe in their enforcement. But we don't.
i have a concern about saying something on this message board that will create problems for a worker... i guess part of it involves being viewed as a spy by subway or bus workers...
perhaps if we feel we have witnessed something very wrong, it might be best to directly inform the powers at be, rather than identify the worker on a public forum...
i have seen people here describe getting into a conversation with a train operator, and then go on to identify when they were riding the train... i think this puts the operator at risk...
what do you think?
Well...the original poster did not ID the T/O per se...no station, car numbers, NB, SB etc. But still in all, I would never Rat on a TA employee for commiting an infraction via this board. They can risk being ratted out by their own co-workers, there are plenty of them around.
Peace,
ANDEE
I agree with the SubwaySurfer, i.e. if the individual isn't robbing or killing someone vs. smoking, etc. I think it's up to the mngt. to catch them, not me.
Even in my own company (speaking figuratively) if the employee doesn't work for me, his/her supervisor tends NOT to appreciate me pointing out something they are doing wrong. Now if they caused an injury, were involved in an accident, got hurt on the job while drunk ... this would be a different matter, but smoking, as long as they aren't blowing it in my face, I'll look the other way.
Mr t__:^)
Personally, I don't smoke and I find it offensive. The TA has rules and policies covering smoking in common areas. However, not having witnessed the infraction, I would not take any action without a formal complaint from the person who actually observed the offending act. On the other hand, knowing what we do about 2nd hand smoke, I find it incredible that people view the train operator's act as victimless.
I thought of it more as a job violation rather than a law, but then again there is a law against smoking on the subway.
I thought of it more as a job violation rather than a law, but then again there is a law against smoking on the subway.
>>> there is a law against smoking on the subway. <<<
Even though it is against the law, I wouuld not make a citizen's arrest of a smoking T/O or passenger. It is not worth the time I would have to take to testify about the incident in court.
Tom
I don't know the penalties but there are a number of transit supervisors on this board so unless you enjoy getting people in trouble you shouldn't post things like this on the board.
It is illegal for anyone to smoke on the subways. If a T/O or C/R is caught smoking, they should be fined. They have NO right to smoke !!!!
I agree 100%. Last week when I stated how I some times swipe when I exit , as my form of protest for the lousy service I recieve on my trip I was advised I was theft of service, a crime the party who used the green arrow at the turnstile! Yet I hear the same voices saying the crime of SMOKING on the property should be overlooked because of the paperwork, or ratting out is not worth it is far worse! Its a crime, a HEALTH HAZARD, a potential FIRE HAZARD, and must be stomped out. No pun intented. The enforcement people are NOT the judges. If its a visitor , make them aware of the LAW with a stern warning. A native rider of employee, Ticket and FINE and written up and Fired with too many infractions. Its an addiction . They should seek hepl or some other job.
Fumin'
avid
He replied: "Little boys should be seen and not heard" (I know, Pigs, thats ageism)
It certainly is! It's one of the most revolting statements around.
Good response to it (this is not addressed to you, it would be addressed to somebody who says that): Big idiots should neither be seen, nor heard.
By the time you think up all these great come backs and get the moxy to use them you're too old for it to be an issue anymore.
Im not trying to get anyone in trouble, I just wanted to know if there are any disciplinary actions against train operators or TA personnel for that matter that smoke on the job.... Sorry for the misconception......
3TM
Motorperson.
Train Operator
Female motorman!!
10/03/2000
Or how about a lame description occasionally used by the news media........
DRIVER !!
Bill "Newkirk"
[Or how about a lame description occasionally used by the news media........
DRIVER !!]
Last Saturday in the cab of Reading FP7 #902 on display at the Wilmington Transportation Festival, a grandmother told her grandkid, who was sitting in the engineer's seat, "This is where the driver steers the train."
That's what an engineer is called in the UK and I wouldn't be against putting it with a subway T/O because there is little engineering involved.
10/05/2000
[That's what an engineer is called in the UK and I wouldn't be against putting it with a subway T/O because there is little engineering involved.]
I guess that's a difference in cultures. Conductors over there are called "guards". That has a different meaning over here, (ex. security guard). Call me old fashioned, but I'm still partial to motorman, the trolley term.
Bill "Newkirk"
Am I the only one on the site that thinks of a "driver" as a person that has the ability to steer his vehicle?
No, because I addressed this subject some time ago on this forum. Fixed guideway vehicles (satisfied with that definition?) are not operated by "drivers". End of discussion.
>>> a "driver" as a person that has the ability to steer his vehicle? <<<
The idea that driving is equated with steering probably comes from the universality of automobiles in the American culture. The word "drive" is more closely related to "propel" rather than "guide." They are the 1st and 3rd definitions respectively in Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. So the driver as a person who propels a vehicle, and therefore the English usage of "train driver," makes as much sense as "engineer" or "motorman."
To quote George Bernard Shaw: "England and America are two countries separated by the same language."
Tom
"The idea that driving is equated with steering probably comes from the universality of automobiles in the American culture."
Don't forget that the operators of wagons, stagecoaches and buckboards were called drivers as well. Their steering was done with the reins.
I guess I am getting too old, but it just makes me shudder when I hear a newscaster refer to an engineer, motorman or T/O as a driver!
This is most likely due to the fact that most (TV) "newscasters" were born after 1960 and have no knowledge of anything but automobiles.
A recent study of some High School students revealed that few know all the states in the Union, a goody percentage believe Canada is part of the US and World War II came right after WWI and the US lost the first one. 25% of the students polled don't recognize the name Lyndon Johnson or Fidel Castro.
I fear for the Republic.
>>> operators of wagons, stagecoaches and buckboards were called drivers as well. Their steering was done with the reins. <<<
That's certainly true, although someone riding on a horse and steering with reins was not called a driver, and those steering multiple horses were often called "teamsters".
Tom
The penalty would be a $75 fine plus a suspension.
Depends on WHAT she was smoking...;-)
BMTman
ALWAYS the comic
Peace,
ANDEE
does anyone know from personal experience or the experience of someone they trust, what the color of roasted or broiled rat is?
heypaul, do you think Sea Beach Fred have a clue?
In some countries I hear it's makes a mighty hearty meal.
Yummmmy! (I think NOT!)
BMTman
How did I get involved in this one? I did write about the rats I saw when I was in New York in '99. But cooking them and eating them. Repulsive to say the least. And I have no clue as to what they would look or taste like. Somebody from the Bronx might----oooooops.
Is it true that you can use a fishing pole with baited hooks to cacht rats in the subway?
Sounds like a plan. Any volunteers out there to give it a whirl. A good place would be on the IRT #3 or 4 near Boroough Hall.
Chambers Street IRT (1/2/3/9). In one of my videos, I taped one walking on the tracks there (and there were 5 others scampering about). It was big. Could have probably fed a family of two for a week :)
--Mark
Yuk! But you have to admit those creatures are fascinating. I think if there was a nuclear holocaust the rats and cockroaches could survive.
You might have to check with heypaul on that one.
I only have experience with the two-legged variety. ;-)
BMTman
Back in the spring of 2000 , The daring DUO fought the Evil forces and Farces of the "KINGFISH" ,Rat was on the Menu then ....
Check back if they are still accessible
avid
[How did I get involved in this one?]
Well, Fred, haven't you eaten crow in the past? I thought rat might taste similar.
BMTman
BMT: With friends like you I don't need any enemies. You'd think you'd have something better for me to dine on. How about a nice plate of Linguini with red clam sauce. That epitomizes my taste a lot more than those creatures in the sky or those pathetic specimens in the bowels ofthe subway.
I once read that there is no human culture anywhere in the world, no matter how primitive, that includes rats as part of its normal diet except in times of extreme hardship. Squeamishness is not necessarily the issue. Rats are said to provide so little meat that they're simply not worth the effort to catch.
Pete: During the Civil War while Grant way laying seige to Vicksburg in the spring of 1863, much of the population was reduced to eating rats---which that filthy rebel traitor Jeff Davis said he believed to be quite edible. Of course Davis never had to eat one himself, even though he himself was a rat of the human variety.
Jeff Davis ... was a rat of the human variety.
Whoa! How dare you slander the name of the greatest President of my country!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: You are a work of art. Your Country? Ha! The Confederacy was never a country, it was a province in rebellion against the duly elected government of the United States----in other words, Rebels and Traitors. But time has passed and we are all in the same boat again, and I applaud you loyalty to the South. Where? North Carolina, I think you said is where you lived. Ever been to Monroe? Had a great time there in '73. Take care.
#4 Sea Beach Fred
Just ask any of the cast of CBS' "Survior" show!!
Why don't you try it and get back to us?
--Mark
Very simelar to rabit, but depending on their feed, the taste may vary from grain fed chichen to carion fed crow. May require spices herbs. Rats are omniverious.
avid
A GO started yesterday on the Canarsie Line that involves work on the Broadway Junction platform (northbound side). Apparently, demolition/restructuring work has commenced on the southern end preventing safe operation of doors on the last three cars of the train. The C/T made an annoucment at Atlantic Ave. that people getting off at B'way Junction would have to move forward to the conductor's car in order to the exit the train.
I would assume that this GO is part of the preliminary work prior to the anticipated major overhaul that is due for the Canarsie Line El structure at that point.
I will keep this site posted on any new developments on this project.
BMTman
I'm wondering, is the R-142 train still running on the #2 line, and is the old R-142 schedule (on Oren's web site) still valid? I tried to catch it Brooklyn-bound a week or so ago at 34th Street/Penn Station at about 5:45 P.M., but I didn't see it. I waited until 6:10, then I got on a redbird. I am just dying to ride an R-142 train.
- Lyle Goldman
I hear it is and I hear it isn't. With revenue testing almost over, the time is coming to take it down...
I hear the testing is finished already. Does that mean it will not be running for a while?
- Lyle
Well, now they're doing a 2 week modification test, what ever that means, at the E180 street shop and the Westchester yard. When the 2 weeks is up, it will undergo a new 15 day road test.
Last night about 10:35pm heading Northbound was 6311-6320 running simulated service on the 2 Express to 241st Street/White Plains Road. She was flying as I waited at 59th Street for the slow poke local. Does anyone know if that second unit is modified to the new standards set in place by the TA? Thanks in advance!
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn
www.transitworld.org
thats the second one alright. the first one was 6301-6310 which did the 30 day test now sitting in E. 180th. either simulated service or passenger service it was in. i'm not too sure of what type. i guess bombardier is on a roll now.
"I am just dying to ride an R-142 train."
Oh don't do *that*.
I'm sure you'll get to ride on it soon enough.
Certainly sooner than I will...
I haven't even seen a 62 let alone riden on one.
Elias
I got one at 9:28AM on Saturday - I'm not sure if that still holds water, though.
wayne
I heard that the over the past weekend during the day, the F train was not running south of Kings Highway. What exactly were they doing to warrant this service disruption?
- Lyle Goldman
Oops. It's this upcoming weekend, not lest weekend. I guess I got my
dates mixed up.
Anyway, what are they doing?
- Lyle Goldman
I'm trying to find out when there first was subway service from Brooklyn to Manhattan.
Anyone know the date (approximate or exact)?
Thanks!
Jonathan Rand
>>> I'm trying to find out when there first was subway service from Brooklyn to Manhattan. <<<
Did you check the history of the IRT and BMT on this website?
Tom
I believe it was 7/10/1905, or slightly thereafter (Bowling Green station opened on that date; I can't find any specific date for Borough Hall at least not on the web), the portion of the current #4/#5 from Bowling Green to Borough Hall. We don't have a list of the opening dates on this site, but look here.
The "Diamond Jubilee" poster I have in my office indicates the year the Borough Hall station opened was 1908.
--Mark
[The "Diamond Jubilee" poster I have in my office indicates the year the Borough Hall station opened was 1908.]
So does a tablet inside the Borough Hall station.
>>> We don't have a list of the opening dates on this site <<<
Dave;
You underestimate yourself. Look at the IRT timeline on this site. It lists the extension of service to Borough Hall as 1/09/08. That would be the earliest subway service between Manhattan and Brooklyn.
Tom
But wouldn't you also count elevated service between Brooklyn and NYC.
When did service start running over the Brooklyn Bridge.
Elias
I think cable service started across the Brooklyn Bridge in 1896?
Through service started in the early 1900s.
--Mark
IIRC, a cable was used on the Brooklyn Bridge until electrification because of fear that steam engines would cause sympathetic vibration and possible collapse. John Roebling himself (or possibly Washington Roebling) said there was no problem with running steam engines, but he was ignored.
IIRC, a cable was used on the Brooklyn Bridge until electrification because of fear that steam engines would cause sympathetic vibration and possible collapse. John Roebling himself (or possibly Washington Roebling) said there was no problem with running steam engines, but he was ignored.
The Brooklyn Bridge had and still has a fairly low live load capacity - 1760 lb/ft. Running steam locomotives in the numbers required by service demands would have exceeded this limit. Steam locomotives were used for switching and at night when the cables underwent maintenance. The bridge had been modified prior to its opening to permit standard size Pullman cars. There had been talk of a direct rail connection with the Hudson Line.
Weight considerations had kept trolleys off the bridge for quite a while. They were to be no closer than 600 feet, when they were finally permitted on the bridge. Within a month of their introduction, there was a traffic jam that caused the bridge to be bumper to bumper in trolleys. The bridge suffered its only major structural damage as a result. The 5 foot dips in the roadway at towers were not part of the original design but as a result of this overloading.
According to George Hilton's opus The Cable Car in America, commercial service on the Brooklyn Bridge began on September 24, 1883.
The Bridge opened on May 24, 1883 and the railway had a test run on August 8, 1883.
Through service was effectuated on November 1, 1898, when the Brooklyn Elevated connected to the Bridge Railway at Tillery Street, Brooklyn.
Cable operation of the Bridge Railway ended on January 27, 1908, a decade or so after it ceased to be necessary or useful.
Elevated service lasted until 1944.
Through service was effectuated on November 1, 1898, when the Brooklyn Elevated connected to the Bridge Railway at Tillery Street,
Brooklyn.
Cable operation of the Bridge Railway ended on January 27, 1908, a decade or so after it ceased to be necessary or useful.
Actually the bridge tracks were electrified in 1896. Electric engines replaced steam for switching and emergency propulsion.
The first though service was cable powered. Cable cars were coupled onto electric powered El trains at Sands St for the trip over the bridge.
Cable operation continued until 1908 because of its high capacity - 90 tph. Space was limited at Park Row. This station was not enlarged until 1908.
When cable service finally came to an end, they installed a block system on the bridge. Each block was 100 feet long. They were able to enforce 700' spacing and maintain 50 tph operation.
I've seen 1895 as the date that 3rd rail was installed for
lighting and heating purposes. At some point ca. 1896,
electric propulsion was tried out. AFAIK, "electric engines",
i.e. dedicated locomotives, were not used. A type "L"
controller (aka a "coffee grinder") was mounted on the open
platform to control the motors on that car only, which pulled
the other cars. Sprague introduced MU in 1897-1898 and
the Brooklyn Union system quickly standardized on that.
I've never heard of through service with the cable being used.
What were the dates of that operation?
Do you know how they dealt with the car width issue?
Brooklyn Bridge cable cars were 10' wide, while all of
the el cars were 8'9".
Common sense. "Mind the Gap!" Society was far less litigous back then.
-Hank (who doesn't think he spelled it right)
I'm sure the conductors, and no doubt there were more of them then, also repeated, "Watch your step." Common sense does work, something today's society fails to grasp.
I've seen 1895 as the date that 3rd rail was installed for lighting and heating purposes. At some point ca. 1896, electric propulsion was tried out.
"The Brooklyn Bridge railway was electrified in November 1896...", from The Tracks of New York, Part 2. There is sufficient ambiguity for you to be correct.
AFAIK, "electric engines", i.e. dedicated locomotives, were not used. A type "L" controller (aka a "coffee grinder") was mounted on the open platform to control the motors on that car only, which pulled
the other cars.
I believe I came across the use of dedicated locomotives, when I did my researches on the Brooklyn Bridge 18 years ago. I could be mistaken. My interest at that time was the design and modification to the Bridge before and immediately after its opening. I don't recall ever seeing any photos of an electric dummy in use on the Brooklyn Bridge.
Sprague introduced MU in 1897-1898 and the Brooklyn Union system quickly standardized on that.
We're agreed that they did not use MU operation. Didn't Sprague introduce Chicago to MU's in 1893?
I've never heard of through service with the cable being used. What were the dates of that operation?
I picked this one up from reading the net. The author is generally a reliable source of information. I suppose going through back issues of the Brooklyn Eagle and the reports of the East River Bridge Company are in order for corroboration
Do you know how they dealt with the car width issue? Brooklyn Bridge cable cars were 10' wide, while all of the el cars were 8'9".
They never tried to operate the cable cars past Bridge Yard :-) On a more serious note - the BMT, BOT and TA successfully operated 9 foot wide el cars and 10 foot wide cars on the same line until 1969. The original els were designed for 8'9" wide cars. The dual contract el's were designed or modified for 10' wide cars. No special modification was made to the el cars until the introduction of the "C" types in the 1920's and the 1957 rehab of the Q cars. Unmodified BU cars operated in 10' territory until 1958.
I am glad to see that a thread for the Brooklyn Bridge transit ops.
I have a question about the Park Row Terminal.
When the structure was extended across the street to City Hall Park, (date of the extension?) was that extension ever planned for a extension of the Manhattan (2nd/3rd Ave El) to have a cross platform terminal with the Brooklyn El. At that time, both systems were steam operated, so, there would have been no interchange service over the bridge. Later on, (by the time the els were electrified) the terminal structure was cut back to Park Row (date?).
How did the proposed Brooklyn - Manhattan Bridge Transit Loop figure into the Park Row terminal structure expansion and retraction?
When the structure [Park Row] was extended across the street to City Hall Park, (date of the extension?)
1907
was that extension ever planned for a extension of the Manhattan (2nd/3rd Ave El) to have a cross platform terminal with the Brooklyn El.
There had been a walkway between the Third Ave El City Hall El station and Park Row. It was torn down, when Park Row was extended in 1907. The 2nd Ave El did not enter City Hall until 1916. By then the City Hall Station was enlarged into an enclosed 4 track two level terminal.
Later on, (by the time the els were electrified) the terminal structure was cut back to Park Row (date?).
1935
How did the proposed Brooklyn - Manhattan Bridge Transit Loop figure into the Park Row terminal structure expansion and retraction?
Not at all. The expansion and retraction for Park Row was dictated by traffic demand. 1908 marked its peak use. The introduction of the IRT into Brooklyn followed by the commercial move to midtown and the Dual Contract subway lines spelled its decline.
Thanks very much.
There are always so many qestions about the NYC & Brooklyn El operations that disappeared long before most of us were born or were able to comprehend them.
When the first subway was built there (under Park Row) did the subway incease the amount of traffic in the area and was that the reason for the Brooklyn Bridge terminal expansion?
>>Sprague introduced MU in 1897-1898 and the Brooklyn Union system quickly standardized on that.
>We're agreed that they did not use MU operation. Didn't Sprague introduce Chicago to MU's in 1893?
Sprague had an odd relationship with GE. He developed and
tested MU at GE's test track in Schenectady NY but effectively
bid against GE in the South Side Elevated RR (Chicago)
electrification. The year was 1897, not 1893. Sprague won
out over GE's proposal to use electric locomotives and then
Sprague effectively sub-contracted to GE to build the equipment.
He approached the Brooklyn system in 1897-1898 (I'm not sure
which of the many companies that eventually formed the BRT was
involved) and was awarded a small trial contract. There is
a
fairly well-known picture of Sprague on the platform of
a BU car in July 1898 in BB yard. Eventually the bulk of the
Brooklyn electrification was given to Westinghouse who produced
a cross-licensed, electropneumatic version of Sprague's design.
Now, a question about this joint cable-el car operation: Did the
el cars provide the motive power across the span or the cable?
I remembered the 1893 date from reading "Fares Please". I gave that book away 25 years ago. Clearly, they or I am mistaken.
It will take me some time to research the cable car question. As I stated, I was repeating second hand information from a reliable source. One thought is that some of the through trains may have been hauled by steam. The bridge railway did not have a sufficient number of electric cars, so cable propulsion may not have been unreasonable. Again, only supposition.
The bridge operation was the classical example of engineering overkill. Two sets of of cables, gauntlet track, steam engines and a third rail - all operating simultaneously.
Oh yeah? Cool. :) You forget what you have after a while...
There was train service between Park Row and Sands St for 25 years prior to the opening of the IRT subway service. Rail service over the Brooklyn Bridge started in September 1883, 4 months after the Bridge's opening.
Through service with Brooklyn's Els started in 1898 making it possible to travel from Brooklyn's hinterlands to Manhattan without a change of trains. Comparable subway service did not appear until 1914.
Does anyone know where I can get train schedules from? I looked everywhere and could not find them.
Try the NYC MTA page. It has the train schedule of every Subway line in PDF format... To make it ultra-easy for you, here is the page you want to get to...
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/index.html
Then click on a circle.
Either follow the instructions given by Mr.Rabbin or if you want actual issues of the schedules, do the following:
LIRR: Penn Station or Jamaica station concourses have schedules for all lines.
NJT/Amtrak: Penn Station in New York and Newark have schedules readily available.
NYCTA: The customer information center located in the lobby of 370 Jay Street has the schedules for all subway lines as well as most TA bus lines. Open from 8am-4pm Mon-Fri (A,C,F to Jay St/M,N,R to Lawrence St.)
MNRR: Grand Central Terminal, oddly until recently you had to ask at the info booth for a full route schedule. Now they keep them in stacks around the booth, though not always.
NJT: Hoboken customer service booth is the only place you can get the MNRR Port Jervis / Pascack schedule. You can also get everything else NJT (incl. Atlantic City) and even a map (zerox copy, though I have one of the blue ones from when they first offered that map).
i don't know if anyone mentioned the 1 page article in this sunday's times magazine on page 22... the article described some of the design features of the r-142..
of particular interest to my twisted mind was the comments about the front made by masamichi udagawa, one of the leaders of antenna design, the consultants on the r-142 design...
summarizing his points:
1) the front should be immediately distinguishable, so as to make a statement about your tax money at work...
2) people could relate more to objects that look like themselves, so they made the front like a face...
the author of the article, janet abrams, then went on to comment that she felt it looked more like a "friendly caterpillar" what with its "black mask around the window, a red shroud around the headlights, and a bright l.e.d. sign for the line number."
combining some of the images in my own twisted way it could be said:
1) the black mask around the eyes makes a statement of what is happening to your tax dollars
2) a shroud around the headlights invokes the image of death or mourning...
3) the front, looking like a friendly caterpillar, might portend the transformation of the r-142's into r-62's after their coming respite at 207th st. shops
The article is still online as of Tuesday morning.
I looked at this article while some guy was reading it this past Sunday on the 7 train. Tried looking for Sunday's paper both yesterday and today in the Queens College Library, but I couldn't find it.
I looked at this article while some guy was reading it this past Sunday on the 7 train. Tried looking for Sunday's paper both yesterday and today in the Queens College Library, but I couldn't find it. I thought you would now pay $2.50 to read this article, but now I get it for free. :-)
While articles in the daily sections expire in day, weekly articles (like in the magazine) expire in a week.
Sometimes they stay longer, I just know that the magazine expires after a week.
And anyway, as a CUNY student, don't you have access to LEXIS/NEXIS?
What are the fastest cars you ever rode on?
Now after field shunting the fleet seems so slow. Really hate it when the train maxes out at 30 MPH.
With some of the old cars, 60 MPH was possible.
Down here in Philly, The PATCO trains are very fast, originally can do 75 mph, but governed down to 65. The B-IV's and The Almond Joys are tied for 2nd, can do 65. The M-4's are not fast at all.
what about the Norristowns?
The N-5 cars, believe it or not, are not as fast as the old Brill bullets. They are fast (if you don't mind breakdowns, typical of anything built by ABB/Adtranz), can do 65. The bullets were capable of doing 75, due to the research that was put into.
How fast could the Strafford cars go? There was one particular motorman who used to delight in frightening the passengers by running so fast that we thought we'd become airborne. Of course, I enjoyed it.
The 60's could MOVE!! Occaisionly a 60 would be assigned to a Bryn Mawr local that left 69th Street at 5:30, with a Norristown Express with a Bullet 5 minutes behind. There were motorman who run so fast that the motorman of the Bullet only saw green signals to Ardmore. After that, the Bullet got yellows until Bryn Mawr.
The 60's had their group switch box mounted over the door on the #1 end. With a hotrod at the controller, the group switch was advancing so fast that the usual psst-click, psst-click became psst-braap!!
The car would be running very close to 65 and a 30 pound reduction was usually needed for the local stop at Wynnwood Road.
As soon as the last person was clear of the door, the brakes came off and controller was rapped up before he reached for the door handle.
The N-5's will never be the equals of either the Bullets or the 60's.
In New York, the R40 slants, with the right TO, can do about 60 in the 60th Street Tunnel. A train of 40-slants I was on about a year ago did 59.
I think WMATA trains are faster, though. Once I remember being on an Orange or Blue Line train between Foggy Bottom and Rosslyn. The lights in the tunnel passed in a blur.
I saw 77 MPH on the WMATA Red Line just south of Grosvenor. That was a fun run.
I saw 80 on the BART Blue line, THAT was cool...
And I saw 85 while heading out to Oakland in 1981. Smokin'! That topped 'em all in my book.
The fastest run only on the Bart system (bay eara rapid transit) . That's in California for some of us who don't know, those trains move at 80mph. You'll be in the train right along side a highway and you'll passing cars. now that's fast!
At NYCTA when trains used to operate fast I'd have to put the R-62 at the top. They were awesome. Also - the Slant R-40 were a blast. Outside of NYC I find WMATA's Metrorail to be very fast and they accelerate quickly too.
Wayne
From the last time I heard, WMATA slow their trains down to 58 MPH.
Now it seems the fastest transit line is the Broad St Subway in Philly. Last time I was there the train I was on hit 62.
The fastest accelerating train I would say the Norristown Line(route 100) in Philly. The rate must be at least 6 MP/S.
I didn't know about that. What I can tell you is that recently I was riding a Blue line train between Rosslyn and Foggy Bottom that easily exceeded 70 MPH.
Wayne
The area between Howard Beach and Broad Channel, R42 A trains seem to hit 50 mph.
I think that the R-10's were the fastest cars in the NYCTA,
especially in the area between Howard Beach and Broad Channel.
Yeah, until now. It seems like these new trains are like rockets.
Well, the fastest cars from a technical standpoint were the R44/46's, which were meant to have a top balancing speed of up to 80 MPH. In reality, all IRT and any 60' cars can do 50+, as can the R44/46.
The R68's? Slow, really slow.
The 2nd Ave. line was designed to permit 70 mph speeds, and the R-44s and R-46s were designed with that in mind. We all know what happened along the way.
I'll second that. The R-10s were fast, period. I was on an A train on July 17, 1969 which must have gotten up to 55, if not 60, on the Howard Beach-to-Broad Channel portion. Once we cleared the bridge, all bets were off. That train took off like a rocket.
Needless to say, a CPW express jaunt on a Thundering Herd was sheer bliss.
What!? The red line between Fort totten and takoma regualry goes upwords of 70.
Now it seems the fastest transit line is the Broad St Subway in Philly. Last time I was there the train I was on hit 62.
BART routinely exceeds 62 on almost every line in existence. Actualy the only BART line that DOESN'T hit at least 75 at some point is the Red Line, due to the frequency of stops and the curves. The L.A. Red line hits 75 in the tunnel to North Hollywood. And Portland LRV operators exceed the 55-mph speed limit when off schedule and have hit 65 while I was watching
That's not WMATA you dope, it's CHICAGO that puts the 58-mph governor on trains
I will give you a platinum second on that post! The R62's were soo fast, along with the R40/40M's. Those were the days! Outside of NYC WMATA Metrorail is the real deal! The speed and acceleration are excellent!
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn
www.transitworld.org
Yesterday I was on a train of R62 cars that almost did 50 mph between 14th and 42nd.
I haven't been so lucky, although I was on a southbound 4 train last fall which got up to 40 at around 23rd St. That's a nice straightaway for express runs.
* how about a ""bullet pcc trolley car"" for high speed ??
Now that is a one I had not thought of! I always wondered about the PCC's they used on the Skoie Swift in Chi-Town, Any comments on that?
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn
www.transitworld.org
They weren't PCCs, they were new cars built from salvaged PCC parts. The infamous green and white 6000 and 5-50 series cars in Chicago (which were used on the Skokie Swift and all other lines at certain points) lasted for nearly 50 years before being withdrawn from service completely in 1993. They were very well-liked and are sorely missed by railfans and even some riders. They had no air conditioning, but the drop down railfan window in front certainly made up for it.
And they were noisy as hell in the State St. subway. The first 200 cars, 6001-6200, were built from all-new components. They can be identified from the ones built from salvaged Green Hornet parts by their straight side doors. The doors on cars 6201-6720 flared out along with the rest of the carbody.
If you're talking about the Bullet cars that ran on The Norristown Line, then they are (or should i say "were") not PCC's.
I do'nt know about a "bullet PCC" but I'd sure like to see a 79-mph tolerance LRV. There's no reason why Light Rail can't attain the same speed as a railroad. Granted, one of the characteristics of Light Rail is the lack of timed signals, tripcocks, or any other automatic shut-off device so exceeding 79 isn't needed. But why do all LRVs have to crawl along at 55? Is there some unwritten rule of LRV design that says "thou shalt not exceed 55" or something?
Abe
10/04/2000
I would like to hear from some train operators who post here that since the inception of speedometers in cabs, what class subway car they operated was the fastest and what top speed ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Depends, most trains are very sluggish but from personal experience, about 10% of every car class has very fast speed capabilities. It will only show if you get more than one married pair in a consist that reacts like this.(Example: at least 4 cars out of a 10 car SMEE train or at least 2 married pairs out of 5).
Most R44's and 38's will do about 42 mph on the Rockaway flats, but I had a R44 two months ago that did 55 and did at least 40 between every station. And I had a R38 that was very quick on Sunday but I went only as far as Lefferts. That R44 was the fastest train that I had ever operated and I haven't seen it since. You never know what kind of train you'll get until you operate it.
I was on an R46 on the E and that was one of the fastest Queens Blvd runs on the E I had in a while. Later I had an R44 on the A. Did quite well along CPW, better than the R38 I was on last time on that stretch.
I do think R44's and R46's are the best damn trains in the system!!
Only problem I got with them is there's no railfan window!
BART in the Transbay Tube. Saw 80mph on the speedometer. I was on an "A" car which offers a partial railfan view.
--Mark
That's what I've been saying all along, BART is the fastest Heavy Rail in the US, even if you don't count the transbay tube every line STILL hits 75+ except for the Red and all go 80 through the tube.
Abe
BART
Here's a cross post from my news service:
Norfolk Southern will be undertaking various track work on the east end of the Southern Tier Line. On Monday, October 9, work will commence over a 3,160-foot section, between milepost 75.3 and 75.6. In order to avoid serious delays, Metro-North will bus passenger that normally ride trains 51 and 60, between Otisville and Port Jervis, New York.
On Tuesday, October 10, work will be ongoing in three locations: Milepost 37.4 to milepost 37.6, 1056 feet; Milepost 35.8 to milepost 35.9, 500 feet; and Milepost 35.5 to milepost 35.7, 1000 feet. Metro-North trains 51, 60, 53, and 62 will be substituted by buses between Sloatsburg and Harriman, New York. NS will have absolute out of service limits will be between milepost 35 and milepost 44.
Wednesday, October 11 and Thursday, October 12, will see continued work between milepost 32.2 and 32.6, a stretch of 2,160 feet on Number One and Number Track, one each day. No busing will be required, due to the double track territory in this location. -CRTS
I just read that a MARTA train that had all the seats occupied was shot at around 8:30 pm last night on the south line. The article said that the bullet did not go all the way through the window, but left a hole and spider webs on the window. How strong are subway windows? They can't seem to resist scratchiti, but they can stop bullets?
My dad was sitting in the railfan seat of a PATCO train was it sped through Camden on his way hone from work. The train was doing about 60 when I brick lofted up from an underpass. It hit the window w/ a loud bang, but the window remained intact. I find this story a little hard to believe because upon recent inspection I found the passenger side window to be rather flimsey and I could flex it inward with my hand. The driver's window was rock solid. Is it right to protect the driver from projectiles and not the passengers as well?
>>> I found the passenger side window to be rather flimsey and I could flex it inward with my hand. The driver's window was rock solid. <<<
Flexing and breaking are two different things. It is possible that the flexibility of the window makes it much less likely to shatter when hit by a thrown object. If you are talking about the driver's windshield as being rock hard, it would have to be much stronger than side windows since anything thrown which hit the front of the train will have the speed of the train to be considered. The railfan window did not flex did it? If you mean the side window in the cab, if it is smaller in area than the passenger side windows, or it opens, a different type of window might make better engineering sense.
Tom
The drivers front window did not flex, but the Railfan Window on the passenger's side could be easily flexed and I feelt I would break it if I pressed too hard.
Could be Lexan. In response to lineside debris tossing, SIR replaced the windows on their R44 with plexiglas (this was pre-rebuild) They quickly became opaque when they were cleaned with anti-grafitti chemicals. THey were able to resist cinder blocks. They would flex quite a bit, but wouldn't break. THey also leaked at the mouldings.
-Hank
The passengers', railfan, and door windows are either made of Lexan or Margard. The Driver's windshield, on the other hand, is made of Safety Glass, the same glass used in automobiles. I don't know if it has anything to do with federal law why the driver's windshield has to be Safety Glass. If anybody has answers, lemme know.
That's how bulletproof glass works. It isn't strong so much as it can dampen the speed of the bullet.
Lucky for you, How Stuff Works recently published an article about bulletproof glass.
How does "bulletproof" glass work?
The VN375 glass is either heat or chemically treated. It's made in two layers. It is supposed to stop a 9MM bullet. The vision glass on the R-46 will protect the operator from a cinder block at 40 MPH.
I think I read a while back, like ten years ago, in a photography book about the NY subway, that a brick was thrown though the window and the glass blinded the T/O. I don't know how long ago that was or what kind of train it was. Do you know when this type of glass was first used?
BTW, I think the book was simply titled, "Subway." A collection of photos of people riding the subway, and stories behind the pictures.
The booths do have bullet resistant glass.
Mechanics (ATU) and bus and rail supervisors (AFSCME) were expected to cross drivers' (UTU) picket lines in L.A. today to start getting buses and trains ready to roll in anticipation of an end to the strike, according to stories in the LA Times and Daily News on Tuesday. No buses or trains will be operated. A key issue was Gov Davis signing SB1101 protecting ATU contracts for 4 years in the case of spin-offs from the MTA. UTU contracts are already guaranteed.
I would not count on it the talks tonight here in pasadena california broke down the mechanics only half assed showed up
looks like the strike is still on & holding to me !!
Does the word PUNCTUATION mean anything to you?
question:? how do you "ENLARGE" your red letters so big like that ??
It does seem that your "head shrink" inside the creedmor mental hospital where you post from ( the computer room ) has taught you how to html post! Oh well I own an old mac g3 & I dont have a PC yet!!
Why they allow inerenet usage inside the creedmor facility is beyond me & especially mental midgets like yourself....
If he was able to "ENLARGE" red letters like that he wouldn't be mental. It is basic HTML and is "platform independent", ...er ............meaning it can be either on a PC or a Mac to code basic HTML.
* I own a old mac g 3 type I am not interested in posting in large red & or blue letters however I am all ears as to how to html post transit pictures inside the message boards here & what instruction manual you may reccomend i buy to self teach myself how to do it! thankz.
salaam allah
We tried, you failed miserably several times.
-Hank
There are a number of websites that offer HTML information. My favorite is D.J. Quad's Ultimate HTML Site, which contains a language reference and some tutorials.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i bookmarked it thanks !
It may take a village to raise a child but every village needs a village idiot. LA has you, salaam. Don't forget to let me know when you come to NYC for operation redbird.
* you see folks what happens inside the creedmor nut ward ??
& they have the nerve to allow this nut to use the internet!!
you figure this out !!
Dude, I can't let this go. Does 'Close your HTML' mean anything to you?
-Hank :)
I realized that i didn't close it after I posted it.
Salaam is stressing me out so badly that I'm even making
HTML errors.
oh you poor little boy!
It may take a village to raise a child but every village needs a village idiot. LA has you, salaam. Don't forget to let me know when you come to NYC for operation redbird.
* WELL !! how are things from inside "THEY ARE COMING TO TAKE ME AWAY"
HA HA TO THE FUNNY FARM WITH CHIRPING BIRDS ETC.. ( inside creedmor )
However you ""head shrink"" there seems to not to be making any kind of progress with you!! They need to keep you away from the computer room inside the creedmor mental nut hospital where your last post came from!! Remember now stay away from the computer we all know how sick you really are !!!!!!!!!
Ha! Dr. Demento lives!
-Hank :)
Haven't you heard? The bird is the word. Well I'd sing more but I'm off to poison some pigeons in the park. Tata!
Salaam, Train Dude is a very intelligent individual. Now as for you, your posts are so ridiculous (I laughed my @$$ of at the "Creedmoor" posts)that many subtalkers believe that you too are a wealthy, intelligent black liberal who is putting on an act -- Fine, but stop putting down those who are in a position to give great insights into the operation,technology and administration of the New York City Subway system. Intelligent thoughtful discourse on controversial subjects will lead to solutions and friendships that will expand and improve your life, while putdowns and gibberish only burn bridges. SHOW YOUR INTELLIGENCE, CAN THE PUTDOWNS.
where does "train dude" show his intellgence? with those stupid large letters ranting & raving like an idiot? Anyway I was as usual & typical DEFENDING myself from all of the insults personal attacks & insults from your ""intellegent individual""give me a break please!!
I have never been a welathy person at all minimum wage hard working.
sometimes i even work out of the LABOR READY store.!!!
>>> Anyway I was as usual & typical DEFENDING myself from all of the insults personal attacks & insults <<<
Salaam;
How does calling names and ridiculing someone defend yourself?
Tom
* I do somewhat agree with somewhat, its only a few nuts on this board anyway. It started back when i posted i liked railfan windows on subway cars !!Then the nut ward cuts the inmates loose !! ( oh well )
Now they post on this forum much too often !!
Oh you poor little boy.
thats what we said about you ( inside the creedmor nut ward ).
I'm thinking of adding the ability to put in graphical smileys, sounds and canned quotes to the chat. The last one is simple and is just a list of things a chatter can call up to have the program say for him instead of typing it out. However my question lies with the first two. If I were to let people do that, then the sounds and pictures would have to be downloaded to the computer of every user (IRC users excepted) for display and individuals would not be able to disable it, at least for the foreseeable future. The files aren't really that big, but I want to make sure it's more useful than it is a nuisance.
P.S. The files will be prepicked by me and would have to be in my server, so there will be no 500 MB files uploaded by anyone to the chat, in case that's a concern.
Any other suggestions you might have, you are welcome to share them, either here or through e-mail (like if you think that subtalker shouldn't be the default nickname).
I use mIRC, so whatever that supports in a chat is fine with me. When is the chat this week, Wed or Sat?
Wednesday, appropriate announcements will be made tomorrow.
I don't know about the rest of you people out there, but I spent three fruitless hours (on and off) trying to get online with Netscape. The moment I went to Earthlink, I got right on Subtalk. Any of you whizzes out there able to tell me why? I'm beginning to think that there is a world of difference between servers. Am I right? Anyway, I'm glad I got on so I can see what happened over the past couple of days.
I use Netscape and I have no problems. You may have to use Dila-up networking and then start Netscape=- that is what I do!
I use netscape- no problems. You may have to use dial-up networking and then start Netscape.
I just had a problem getting onto the site using internet explorer.
Netscape Navigator is an application - a web browser - whereas Earthlink is an ISP. If you're saying you use a different ISP when you use Netscape, that brings me to two points 1) It has nothing to do with this site, and B) why do you use different browsers with different ISP's? Why not just choose the browser you like and the ISP (and maybe keep the other one around in case your first choice of ISP is having trouble).
Before complaining here, I would recommend spending some time learning the differences between browsers and ISPs, and also how many different pieces of networking hardware are between your PC and any given site on the Web. It's typically somewhere between 8-15 independent pieces of networking hardware any one of which might be having some problem that prevents access from you to here.
This site doesn't care what browser you use-- I take pretty good pains to be sure that the site is browser independent.
Dial ups and ISP's. I'm not that computer literate. I would say I'm about 45-50% at best. If that could be explained to me I would appreciate it. As it is, I got on with Earthlink.
O.K. Here's the basics.
ISP - The Internet Service Provider. The company or organization that provides your connection to the Internet.
(like Earthlink).
Dial-Up Networking. Windows' name for using your modem to call and connect to your ISP over a telephone line.
modem - A device either inside your computer or in a box (with lights that flash) that sits along side it. It has telephone lines connected to it. It takes the computer signals and converts them so they can be transmitted over a telephone line. (Its name comes from modulate demodulate.)
There's a great little book published by IDG Books called "Windows98 for Dummies. It takes all these computer terms and explains them in everyday English. It's available at almost any book or computer store.
Thanks Dan. I appreciate your simple definitions that make it easier for me to understand. I have both systems on my school computer but it seems that I always seem to get on Earthlink but Netscape is a tougher nut to crack.
>>> I always seem to get on Earthlink but Netscape is a tougher nut to crack. <<<
Fred;
To reiterate what Dave Pirmann said before, Netscape is a browser. It cannot connect you to anything by itself. Your Internet Provider makes your connection with the web. Most internet providers give you software which when the icon is selected connects you to the web and opens your default browser, usually either Microsoft's "Internet Explorer" or Netscape's "Navigator."
Although opening the Internet provider (in your case Earthlink) automatically opens a browser, the reverse is not true. Opening a browser will not automatically open any link to the web. Therefore if you only open the browser, you will get an error message indicating that the browser cannot find any web address.
Tom
Earthlink offers a customized version of one of the two browsers in their software package. He opens the program whose icon is labelled Earthlink, and it opens Netscape or IE just containing the Earthlink logo. The beginner cannot tell the difference and there's nothing wrong with that! I believe it is IE (otherwise he would have the same problems, wouldn't he?).
Finally, what you say about opening the browser and not getting connected is untrue. I don't know what you use, but Windows having IE as early as 2.0 (even if you run Netscape) will AUTOMATICALLY load a selected internet connection when any attempt is made by a program to access the internet. This is useful in that it makes the claim by AOL that it's easier to connect with AOL to be bunk.
As for this automatic connection, the Earthlink software package, in addition to creating the connection in DUN, will set it as the default and therefore facilitate this dialing.
>>> Earthlink offers a customized version of one of the two browsers in their software package. He opens the program whose icon is labeled Earthlink, and it opens Netscape or IE just containing the Earthlink logo <<<
Porky;
I have not worked with Earthlink, so I do not know what their browsers are like. Perhaps the only change is the sign on screen. Earthlink does have a very good reputation as a reliable provider in this area. I have heard that AOL has some kind of customized browser which is somewhat crippled but have not had any first hand experience with it. I have three free Internet providers, and each of them require that I have IE installed to run, but since I have registered Navigator with Windows as my default browser, each provider automatically opens Navigator when I connect with the web. (They all try to slip cookies to Explorer even though I am using Navigator). One of them, Juno, keeps opening Explorer pop up windows, even when Navigator is running.
>>> Windows having IE as early as 2.0 (even if you run Netscape) will AUTOMATICALLY load a selected internet connection when any attempt is made by a program to access the internet. <<<
To get that feature you must register a default internet connection with Windows. Since I am alternating among three free providers, (and I have a proprietary provider to log into a private network) I have no default internet connection registered. Therefore I must pick a provider and connect manually before any access to the web is granted.
Fred may either have the problem of having no default internet provider registered, of he may be opening Navigator in the off line mode.
Tom
AOL is a crummy service by today's standards, but that is because it was the first* service available to the general public, long before there was an Internet Explorer or a Netscape. This means that they had to invent how things were to be done. Later technology far out surpassed them, and they were left playing catch-up with a non-standart technology. (Kinda like trying to couple a Lo-V to an R46~ I suppose it could be done, but it wouldn't be pretty.)
*first as in the first to provide the graphical interface that WWW users are familiar with... previous providers were all DOS based data and email services. In studying TCP/IP protocols, the first "Internet Backbone" consisted of three or four 56Kb lines. (To keep on topic~ kinda like a horse drawn street car that ran between the Bronx and San Francisco!)
Some "facts" are flexible... but that is the short story.
Elias
The Low-V analogy is good.
AOL is like that R-10 that was overhauled to have an R-42 bonnet (sp?)and interior. It looks nice and modern, but it's the same old clunker deep down.
Earthlink's software merely installs the browser, registers what's necessary and includes account management tools.
I remember once having the Earthlink browser. It was just Netscape 2.0 (at the time) that replaced the N logo with the Earthlink logo. It also included an extra Netscape button in the button because clicking the logo went to Earthlink.
AOL has its own proprietary software, and there is a browser window you can open as an MDI child (window inside bigger window) which is IE. However it lacks the full featured menu and button bar and the IE favorites. The AOL mail client isn't totally bad (its use is compulsory, no POP access), it's recent improvements are minimal, like the ability to have colors and links and add images, available for years to non-AOL users. Even with those improvements, it's still not compatible with web standards. Watch the HTML code that does nothing in a message from an AOL client.
The less said about the newsgroup client, the better.
Netscape is not an ISP, it's a browser, like Internet Explorer. What browser do you use at school and at home? Or do you use one for the school's account and a different one for Earthlink?
Dan: I have Earthlink at home and I have absolutely NO problems at all getting on Subtalk.
Like I said, what Browser (Netscape or Internet Explorer) are you using to get to the Web?
And are the problems related to school?
Perhaps Fred is using Netscape.net -- whici IS an Internet provider out here in California. I know a few people whose e-mail addresses are xxxyyyzzz@netscape.net, they say they log on through that as their ISP.
They are doing work on the downtown 6 line. Because of the work lights, Worth street is all lit up and clearly visible. Go have a look!
Also, at Dekalb Ave today I saw both an r40 Q and r40 N arrive at the same time going Northbound.
I have a picture of this station. Come over to my site (click the picture below) and take the express train to TP, then take the Court Street Shuttle to Transit Pictures 11.
Those unusual signs at Hoyt-Schermerhorn had to be there for filming. There are 47-50 signs at the 42nd St. lower level.
Before field shunting modification what were the average speed of trains? I knoe that the brightliners went fast as they still do.
I remember one time 10 years ago, on the lex express looking out the window as we passed the local stations, columns and light were flying by. I say we were goin at least 50, 55.
There used to be mile markers every 1/2 mile. I'd measure the elapsed time with a stop watch or my sweep second hand. The best I'd ever timed was around 45 mph. I friend of mine did manage to get 53 mph on the Rockaway Line.
Does anyone know if the field shunting will be removed, when all the signal modifications are completed?
Field shunting was already removed; it would have to be restored. Whether it will be is anyone's guess.
David
Let's just say the CPW express dash is not the same as it used to be. It's not a dash anymore, anyway.
How about this: SEPTA Broad St. B4 subway train on the CPW run without timers. Should be one hell of a ride.
I always wondered how the multisectionals would have handled an express run along CPW. Chances are they would blown even the R-10s away.
I think it depended on the barn for the most part that gave you the extra MPH. Jamaica barn and alot of C.I.s equipment had the slowest R32s, Concourse Yard had better, but their R42s were really ratty. I never found a good train of R32s going back of a twelve year span. I think any trains that were under warranty back in the '89 to '92 timespan got up to 55 with no problems. Even the R68/A cars got up to 55 frequently. Certain cars, the field shunt mods made a bigger difference than others.
Who got shot on my train? I never saw the first piece on it. Did it happen in Manhattan or Brooklyn, and why did it happen? Nuts!!!! Every time I'm off this line for a day or two I miss something.
This guy had a video camera on the N train at 59 street, at 2:30AM and a memeber of this gang got offended, because he thought he was shooting him, so he pulled out a gun and shot. i think 4 people were injured, but not badly.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
I hope these guys were caught. And if they were I hope some liberal bleeding hearts won't claim they are victims of society. A nice stretch in Attica would do just find for those rotten $#@^^%*(.
Hey Fred,
Supposedly, they are members of an Hispanic gang. I still say, deport 'em !
Are they illigal?
Personally if someone was taking pictures or video, and I was caught in it I would not mind, especially if it was a railfan video.
As a new yorker I can understand why people fell that way.
When I was taking pics of the Hudson-Bergan light rail, abandoned Canel St. station and Marriot Marquis Hotel in Times Square, I made sure no one was in sight. But I did catch one businessman in a pic, he saw met but I was 40 stories up.
May I advise you visit it if you have time.
It wasn't a railfan video being done. Three people were returning from a party and they were videotaping each other on the train. More of a "tourist" kind of thing.
--Mark
Dude probably got all moody broody cuz
the camera HAPPENED to be on him while
he was STRIKIN' OUT smoochin' it to
some honey..
The Sea Beach train was not injured.
--Mark
Fred:
The original post is still on SubTalk and the Times article is still available as of 4:25 PM PDT Tuesday.
While New Yorkers are excited about the R142s, Atlantans are finally getting new cars after 15 years or so. Breda finally delivered the first of a 100 car order to MARTA, contract CQ312. There's some techincal details in the Atlanta portion of nycsubway.org. They were supposed to arrive last December. Here are pictures of the new cars. They are pretty damn good looking. They are being tested at a new facility MARTA has. There's a 2,300 ft. test track there. I'm gonna try to find this place new final assenbly place and take some pictures, if possible.
nice!! sure look better than the los angeles red line & i think they look better than the R-142s too !! Did they "scrap" the french made cars to replace them with these new models?? Also finally did they get rid of that nasty smelly Carpets on the floors? I am glad to hear the MARTA system does not use "paper transcards" anymore!!
Also finally did they get rid of that nasty smelly Carpets on the floors?
From the picture it's hard to tell. I certainly hope so, that carpet can get pretty rank. I remember reading in the newspaper a while ago that MARTA wanted to replace all the carpet with non-slip rubber. The blue floor on the new cars appear to have white speckles on them, so I'm guessing that they have rubber floors. None of the old cars have been scrapped, they are only 20 years old and there's a car shortage. And they all still have carpet in them.
YEA that had to be the worst thing ever done to any rail transit system anywhere! Using carpet on the floor of the MARTA cars! I think the newer ( & wiser cars etc. ) it does look like a rubber or tile like floor which can even be washed with a water hose ( like i used to do my school bus on stewart ave )wet the floor, then pinesol a good brush then rinse !!
& those paper transcards were a real drag !! One week & they are gone!
especially when you have to HAND SWIPE your transcard on the bus!!
thankz salaam allah
true treue. i also agree abouit the la red line cars looking absolutely ugly. if you ask me those are the ugliest heavy rail vehicles in operation today anywhere in the us (ugliest rail period would have to go to the Kawasaki single-car LRVs that SEPTIC uses)...the martas are cool, they do not look modern but rather have kind of a retro 60s look to them. i like it.
* thank you ! also my point is that the three systems RED GREEN BLUE should have been the same identical type like AKA san diego.
then there should have been interconnecting lines to all three lines
also the blue line long beach branch should have continued to union station / gateway center then the final connecting lines continue to pasadena sierra madrae then on to arcadia monrovia irindale then thru to san bernadino county !! ONE LINE ONE BLUE LINE ( excuse me )
I am happy to hear they got rid of that carpet on the atalnta cars!
thankz salaam allah
Yes, I also believe that terminating the Blue line at Metro Center and not at Union Station was a bad idea. However in my opinion, I don't think that Red-blue or red-green through service should have been initiated - this would have required the Red Line to be Light Rail. LRVs can only go 55 and it would ruin the whole point of that long tunnel to North Hollywood to have to crawl through at 55 instead of running at a more comfortable 75. What I believe should have been done was a joint-subway - either 4track or bi-level - similiar to what San Francisco uses. Red Line trains would have been on the bottom deck, with fare control, while Blue Line trains would have taken the top with Proof-Of-Payment systems instead. As it stands now, when the Pasadena Blue Line extension is finally completed I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't too long (i.e. 10-20 years) before there was through-blue service, albeit at street level or in a seperate new subway. However now, with all passengers having to transfer to the Red, it inflates the ridership on the Red Line (as does the amount of Metrolink riders who use it as a shuttle to and from Union Station) so that the MTA can brag about ridership when in fact Red Line ridership is dismal.
-Abe
Why can the LRVs only run at 55? Who says they can't go faster, if allowed? They most certainly COULD do 75 in the tunnel, if they were 1)designed to do so, and 2) permitted to do so by the operating authority.
-Hank
See my other post on "79-mph LRVs". None have ever been made and my question is why does every TA in the US limit their LRVs to 55?
Hey hey leave my Kawasakis alone!!! lol
Big D
Nice! They look better than the old cars I rode in August and those were pretty good (just need their interior redone).
A fine looking candidate for the resurrected Rockaway/Airport Branch.
Direct service from GCT to JFK and LGA
avid
Direct service from GCT to ATL to JFK and LGA. Will only take a few days to get there. Just in time to catch your late plane.
I have to say those are some of the ugliest trasit vehicles I've ever seen. It looks like they split an Amcoach lengthwise, and glued a Kawasaki LRV to the top.
-Hank
they have an out dated Amtrak look. R-142's look better and more up to date. however, they resemble WMATA's Breda cars, kind a nice touch though. nice white interior. Carpeted floor? if they have em on the new cars, makes ya feel like ur riding the plane. cadillac of subway trains (sort of)
terrence
I'm just not seeing it. I usually can tell when something looks ugly or not, but they look good to me. I can't even see the retro thing. Maybe perhaps after years of seeing the same old stuff on MARTA, anything will look good to me.
Hi, Nice looking car. Really makes our R68 look worse than it already is. I guess the both MARTA sets will be compatible. By the way, how many orders did MARTA get since they opened? All by the same manufacturer? Can the MARTA subway be covered in one day? I was thinking of doing a day trip to there. When will the new units be in service?
Joe C.
This is MARTA's fourth car order. First and second in 1979 from Franco-Belge (cars 100-200; 500-520). The 501-520 (I not sure if those are the right numbers) were all single cars, but since then they have been coupled in pairs. The third is from Hitachi (1985, cars 201-320) and the current order from Breda will start at 600. Currently they have 238 cars in revenue service. The current order is for 100 cars. The first sets will be in service in December, in time for the opening of the North line extension.
I just looked at the Atlanta section in nycsubway.org, and it appears that Dave took out the car specs for some reason.
The whole system can be covered in less than a day, I think I've done it in 3-4 hours. Wait until after the new stations open to make a trip here.
Hi, thanks for the info. I guess I'm itching for a trip to do. When I saw the MARTA posts it gave me an idea, since I hadn't been there since 1982. I always liked the MARTA system, rail and bus, and have been watching it for several years. The new cars are a nice subtle change from the earlier ones, although not too drastic that they would screw up compatability. There is something I personally like about straight sided cars, like LA, Baltimore, Miami etc. But the curves on the MARTA car are augmented by color, a good move. I like the MARTA car as well as the LAMTA car. They do what they are supposed to do and they do it well. Everyone has their opinions and tastes. That is all they are, opinions. Doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the scheme of things. One thing is for sure: as railfans we ALL benefit when a new car is put on the rails somewhere.
Thanks again for the info; I'll get to Atlanta again sooner or later
Joe C.
Lookd great, nice and colorful. Looking at the top of the page, I see now that NJTransit stole MARTA's logo. Interesting...
They are nice! The black front is a good touch. It would be nice if the R143s look like the new MARTA cars, at least up front.
right!! & the carpet on the floor has to go!
right!! & the carpet on the floor that they used to have has got to go!
look better than a r-142!!! hands down!!
I just read the thread about the shooting incident on the N train,
and that reminded me of an incident that happened to me several
months ago while photographing the West Philadelphia MFL El structure.
I was visiting my friends, who live near 46th and Walnut Sts., and one
of my friends and I decided to take my dog for a walk (I drove my car
that day, so I brought my dog along). We walked over to 49th and
Market Sts., when I decided to take a picture of the El with the
Center City skyline in the background. I walked up on a ramp that
leads to a store for a better shot (that same store was having a
sidewalk sale at the time), and snapped the picture, while my friend
waited with my dog at the bottom of the ramp. As my friend and I
started to walk away, all of a sudden I heard "YO! YO! WHAT ARE YOU
TAKING A PICTURE OF ME FOR?!?!?" This black guy (not to be racist)
came from where the sidewalk sale was, and started yelling at me,
claiming I was taking his picture. I kept telling him that I was
photographing the El and the city skyline. He still kept insisting
that I was taking his picture, and for a moment, I though he was going
to grab my camera, which was my $500.00 Minolta 35mm SLR. He then
threatened that he was going to call the cops on me for taking his
picture. I just said "go ahead", because I know I wasn't doing
anything wrong. After this going on after several minutes, we walked
away without further incident, although I was quite shaken up. If it
wasn't for me having my friend and my dog with me, I strongly feel
that I would've been attacked and/or had my camera swiped. Anytime
I take pictures now, I make sure NO ONE sees me. Don't these people
realize that railfans exist??? It seems that whenever you take
pictures, you are taking your life in your hands. That really stinks!
that guy you had problems with sounds like the train dude inside posting from inside creedmor! I always say I am sorry sir,I was taking a shot of the train I did not get you in the picture my apologies sir!
Try to say as little as possible sometimes just say "sorry" & leave
quickly return 30 minurtes later with everybody gone!!!
Always I tell motormen i am shooting the train only & go out of every kind of way to shoot as wide as possible as to not be near any persons
be as close or near the trains you want to shoot but no closeups or near any persons especially when i shoot railfan videos or still shots same thing!!
I am sorry there are so many idiots out there but it is the public & you take your chances when you squeeze of shots of public transit.
Do not let it get you down you are tougher than that! ( smile )
thankz salaam allah
I took an A train of R44's from 34th street. Because of a G.O., I took this A train to Rockaway Blvd, and then get another A train to Far Rockaway.
On the way, there was an OOS train of R44's at Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the southern unused platform. The sign said NYCTA. There was a film crew on scene, and used bright lights filming a scene in one of the subway cars. This was around 2:15pm.
The Fulton express didn't have too many long stretches, so the R44's couldn't build up a top speed, although we did got pretty fast on that stretch before Euclid ave.
I got off at Rockaway Blvd, and an A train to Far Rockaway was behind us.
Now, with a train of R44's again, the ride to Rockaway was beautiful. It felt more like the LIRR than the subway, the way the tracks felt.
Both bridges over Jamaica Bay were nice, and the long stretches before and after Broad Channel were fast.
The train went fast through Hammels Wye, even though there was a curve there. The ride along the concrete el to Far Rockaway was very nice. The view of the ocean was nice, and it was pretty desolate. Also some metal electrical towers remain (probably carry LIPA power to Rockaways)from the LIRR days. I kept having to remind myself I was on the subway, because it felt alot more like the LIRR. Especially with the R44's, a distant cousin of the M-1's used on the LIRR.
The terminal, Far Rockaway, wasn't as bad as I thought. There were people around, and the area didn't look much worse than Sutphin Blvd, Jamaica.
The ride back was also on R44's and equally as nice, the Fulton express seemed a bit faster on the way back.
I changed for the F at Jay street and had a nice ride back to Queens on an R46, and no congestion on Queens Blvd this time.
I think the A is one of my favorite subway lines. Theres a great variety, from tunnels to el's to great water views (some of the best views are on the A), to alot of express stretches on CPW, 8th ave, and Fulton.
My question is this. Are the tracks and ties on the Rockaway line the same as when it was the LIRR line, and does anything original remain on the line from it's LIRR days?
Well, the tracks and the ties are definitely not the same. Rails and wooden ties aren't designed to last through 50 years of continuous service. The roadbed however is the same. The stations date back to LIRR days but I think that's about it although some of the old LIRR stations disappeared during re-construction in the 1950's. This website has plenty of information as far as the old Rockaway line goes so you may want to check it out. The Rockaway Park station on the Rock Pk Shuttle still has the same high ceiling entrance and mezzanine dating back to the 1900's.
A great book on the history of the Rockaway Branch is "Change at Ozone Park" by Herbert George.
I was at the Transit Museum Annex in Grand Central today and they had several copies of "Change at Ozone Park" on the shelves. The price is $18.95, and as Jeff says, it is a very good book.
This book is so good on this topic ,it brings tears to you yes and a forlone feeling to your heart . It just seems that evil dark forces have formed an Axis against very good sense to keep The Ny Metro area from having a real single seat from JFK to Manhattan or LGA or that udder airport Newark. The traffic rat nest at JFK would confuse an Archangle. To think , It was once right at JFK's doorstep. With alittle tracck work a train could get within a half mile of LGA or continue on thru to Newark. The politicos blame or inflame the N.I.M.B.Y.s because too many corrupt leaders want a piece of the Pie
avid
A real close look at th rails on the express tracks near aquaduct will show a manufactures stamp date of 1955, and the ties of those same express tracks show a lot of age ,spliting and rot. The tracks are not used except for storage on very, very rare occasions. The south bound rails and ties were replaced with welded rail about ten or more years ago. A keen eye will see six bolt rail joiners on the newer rails and four bolt rail joiners on the original TA tracks . I beleive all the rails were replaced when the Ta took over ownership from the LIRR. Then again when welding came about in those areas. The north bound tracks Have not been fully welded. In the spring of this year ther was a lot of welded rail activity south of Howard Beach, but I'm not sure if it was on the main line or the newer sidings installed from the north channel bridge to Broad Channel. Perhaps Someone astute in that area can add or correct this info.
avid
Continuous welded rail was installed on 1 and 2 tracks from about 300 feet south of Howard Beach to the North Channel bridge earlier this year. 3 and 4 tracks still have the old rails.
There is a long siding north of Broad Channel to the right of the southbound track.
The siding that was installed last year north of Broad Channel has room for one full length train and is used to turn Rockaway Park Shuttle trains. They are also constructing an additional spur track alongside the southbound track which would extend to just south of the North Channel bridge. I'm guessing that the purpose of this spur would be for track testing cars.
The long section across Jamaica Bay was a wood trestle in LIRR days. It was destroyed by fire (around 1950 or 51), ending LIRR service across Jamaica bay. When the NYCTA purchased it, they rebuilt it as sand fills. I beleive that the two swing bridges date back to the LIRR days.
The elevated structure on the Rockaway peninsula was built by the LIRR shortly before WWII to replace a ground-level operation. The structure and stations were designed with possible eventual conversion to subway use in mind (e.g., high-level platforms, mezzanines for fare control).
-- Ed Sachs
I beleive that the two swing bridges date back to the LIRR days.
Hmmm ... I thought the TA built those, too.
--Mark
Both statements are essentially true.
During the days of LIRR operation the swing bridges were made of wood and because of this caught fire quite frequently. It was partially due to the high-maintenance of those bridges that made the LIRR sell the line to the NYCTA.
When the NYCTA upgraded the line to subway system specs, they took the initiative of rebuilding the swing bridges out of steel to avoid the frequent-fire problems that plagued the prior set of bridges.
BMTman
The A is the premier line of the entire subway system, if not the B division or IND itself, IMHO. It's my personal favorite as well for the same reasons you gave.
On the above date the Bridge-Jay St el station burned down. The fire was difficult to fight because of 40 mph winds. Three el cars were destroyed in the blaze. I assume that they were probably gate cars.
Does anyone have a book or other reference material that might show the numbers of those three cars?
And on Oct. 4, 1969, the Myrtle Ave. el closed up shop with a final fantrip on the Q cars.
On this date in 1955 Johnny Podres shut out the Yankees 2-0 to win for the Brooklyn Dodgers their only World Series. The Jerome Line was packed with happy revelers who journeyed back to Brooklyn. It wasn't the #4 line then, mine was. I have been told that at that game there were actually more people rooting for the Dodgers than the Yankees. Take that Yankee fans.
>>> On this date in 1955 Johnny Podres shut out the Yankees 2-0 to win for the Brooklyn Dodgers their only World Series <<<
Hmm! For those into conspiracy theories, did this event lead the Yankees to cause the exile of the Dodgers to the left coast? :-)
Tom
I'm trying to remember who made the last out. It was a ground ball to Pee Wee Reese, who threw to Hodges. Then there was Sandy Amoros and his spectacular catch of Yogi's pop fly down the left field line.
The Mets can add Pac Bell Park to their list of ballparks they're having trouble winning at.
I'm trying to remember who made the last out.
Elston Howard
Thanks. For some reason, that name crossed my mind.
The thread title is Apr, 20th 1946!
Did the Yankees really play a World Series with the Dodgers on Apr 20th 1955?
Kinda early in the year for a World Series, don't ya think?
It sure was! It would have played hell with the rest of the season too!
I hope Fred finally found out what happened on Apr 20th 1946.
I had hoped that someone might have had some information as to the numbers of those three cars that were destroyed in the fire, but I guess that it happened too long ago!
Thanks to the kindness of my colleagues I did. Thanks Karl.
Hey fellas, I'm back from the dead. Been busy with school, work, watching the Yankees fall apart & the Giants start off great only to start playing lousy. But anyways, my question. I was watching Ghostbusters for the 145th time the other day, and I remember the scene with the earthquake at Central Park West. Do you ever wonder if they should've fallen into the Central Park West subway tunnels? I sometimes question that. It's probably a beating a dead horse question, but I thought I'd ask anyways.
Jorge "Mr R-62/62A" Catayi
I saw this car the other day and on its north side this car has a HUGE crack right by the middle set of doors. Some other cars are also looking quite shabby. Look out for 9703 it has a hole by the one of the picture windows my R36s are starting to die. sniff sniff. :0(
At about midnight witnessed a northbound E train making a restricted
move on A4 track at W4 St. Car 3705, in the middle of the train,
had THE WORST flats I've ever heard or even heard about. The train
was moving at about 5 MPH, probably heading for Jamaica.
I'd love to know what mechanical failure is determined to have
caused those flats.
Most likely a stuck brake caused those flats. Uneven trainline braking can also cause it, another reason though highly unlikely in this case could be an unreleased handbrake.
If a car has flats so dangerous that it risks derailment, the specific car can have it's brakes locked and they can then drag the car to the yard while the unaffected cars operate normally. They would of course have to replace all the wheels on that affected car as there would be 8 flats.
4 possible causes come to mind:
1) Seized bull/pinion gears. Any axle, any truck, probably limited to one axle only.
2) Leaky J-Relay causing excessive brake cylinder pressure. This will result in flats to all wheels of the car and may be accompanied by the burning plastic smell of the composition shoes.
3) Handbrake applied enroute. Effected axles are number one and number two only and will be accompanied by the burning plastic smell of the composition shoes.
4) Excessive dynamic brake. With this problem, usually multiple flats are found on each wheel as problems like this are not usually found at once.
In any case, smoke will issue from the sliding wheels and hopefully a conductor will detect the situation promptly.
I guess people mis-read my post. I know what _could_ have
caused that (although it is instructive to list the causes),
but I was hoping someone such as Train Dude might have picked
this up on the train trouble reports and have an inside scoop
as to what actually happened.
Many years ago R-6-3 #991 suffered a similar problem as she seized up good as she left 50th Street, right in the curve heading to 7 ave. Only problem here she was the lead motor. We had to get a push to 7 Ave and I dont know what happened after that cos we took the "D" to 47-50 and so took the "F" back to Jama.
wayne
Around 10PM, a southbound E at Canal Street was reported to have 'Smoke Issuing'. The train was moved to WTC where it was determined that the #2 axle of car #3705 was locked - most likely due to a broken pinion gear. The train was rocked until the pinion was broken free and the train was then moved, at restricted speed, to Jamaica yard. At Jamaica Yard, the broken pinion was confirmed. The #3 & 4 wheels ended up with 8" flats. The car will be transferred to Coney Island, this weekend, for a truck change.
Trivia Question: What is the significance of BMT216A ? Hint: You needn't be a subway buff to know the answer but a being a movie buff will definitely help.
Thanks for the info, Steve! From the sound of that car passing
I guessed 6" flats. Now that car going to be sent south on
its own trucks?? No transfer table at Jamaica?
It might be fun to send the Sperry car and the Tk Geo car out
behind this drag!
Jeff,
Before the car is transferred, the pinion will be removed and the wheels will either be cut or welded depending on the wheel readings, before the car is transferred.
If I remember correctly many years ago, it was S.O.P. to use a dolly that a truck could be strapped to to avoid the welding. I made the move once with a C.I. R27 when I hit miscellaneous. Why don't they use the dolly anymore? Was there a technology improved upon that allow temporary fixes to weld slag to forged steel. I don't particularly like moving welded wheels. Even at restricted speed, steel dust shakes loose from all parts of the car body and the truck leaving behind an impression of smoke issuing and the flat sounds worse than it may be after the welding.
Many years ago, we used Cauley wheels to move cars from the road to the nearest maintenance facility when the car had large flats or a locked pinion. However, Cauley wheels had serious limitations. The largest was that Cauley wheels could only be used on cars with clasp-type brake riggings. Since most cars now have tread brake units, the opportunity to use Cauley wheels are limited.
As for welding the wheels, it is a last resort. The fact is that for every inch of flats, we need to remove about 1/8" of tread so if the wheels are fairly new, 2"+, they'll be able to be cut before being sent to the O/Haul shop. The trouble is when you make such a significant cut, the other wheels need to be cut so the car is not riding on mis-matched wheels.
As for steel dust - that went with the steel brake shoes.
I remember of an incident years ago on the Lexington Avenue Line involving one of these dollys where the increased height of the trucks caused damage to signal wiring and car equipment. What was the actual increase of height using the Cauley dolly?
10/06/2000
[train was rocked until the pinion was broken free and the train was then moved, at restricted speed, to Jamaica yard.]
From WTC to Jamaica yard at restricted speed ? That must have took an hour. You got me stumped on BMT216A !
Bill "Newkirk"
According to the report I read, it took over 2 hours. The move started a bit after midnight and the train was report in Jamaica Yard at 2:39AM.
As for BMT216A, here are two more hints:
4711-EA-62
LU-6789
Does that help?
The numbers on the revolving license plates on James Bond's Aston - Martin DB5. One of my favorite non-rail vehicles.
Excellent - If you e--mail me privately with you address, I'll send you a copy of the 2000 Subway guide
Steve
Steve,
You amaze me! I have trouble remembering my own SS number in the proper order, and you can remember 007's different revolving license plates!
You have to be a Bond fan!
Memory has little to do with it. The first one was from memory but I actually had to watch the scene in Slo-mo to get the other 2 numbers.
I do have a good memory when it comes to car #s.
Isn't that part of your job description?
Actually it's not but what's your point?
Well you work in a car shop and I would guess that it helps to be able to remember car numbers. The manager of the best car shop in the MTA can probably remember every car number he sees.
I think you tend to remember "series" of cars vs. specific car #s, e.g. at this depot we have a group of MCI coaches and with in it are a group of "Liberty's". I know the range of s/n for both groups.
Mr t__:^)
BMT216A??
Isn't that the license number on one of James Bond's cars????
Randy Kennedy wrote an article in Wednesday's Times that questions the TA's recently revised "on time" standards. He doesn't mention that it is a plot hatched by heypaul to send more math tutoring business in his direction.
And that caption under the picture in the article (on-line version) is wrong, or the picture that was supposed to match the caption was wrong.
I distinctively recognize the "Times Square" station sign as the ones on the BMT Broadway line. That's not the #7 platform.
--Mark
Check out page 22 of last Sunday's NYT Magazine. One page article on
R142s!
Yes; this was mentioned yesterday.
Yep, another delay due to door problems on the F this morning, following three F'ed rush hour commutes last week.
This time, the conductor was able to isolate the door rather than taking the train out of service. We had one packed train with another close behind, but the foul up didn't last long enough to wreck the whole rush hour. Guess they are re-learning those early 1980s skills.
Hey Train Dude, any chance of you moving back to Kew Gardens from Concourse?
Better yet, how about cloning him?:-)
Yesterday, the 18:27 (B) out of Bedford Park was a consist of R-32 Cars,
3563-3562-3558-3421-3927-3926-3450-3451-3948-3949
What a site!!!!
Trevor Logan
"3558-3421"
Are there many cases of pairs not being in numerical sequence?
Yes there are. For example you have:
3444-3777
5617-5616-6203-6202
4426-4429
4460-4661(don't quote me on the last #)
All car classes(except maybe the R38) have at least one married pair or 4 car unit with mismatching numbers due to varying maintenance circumstances. Sometimes a mate was unattached due to lacking in parts or was cannibalized for parts. Or a mate could have been destroyed in an accident(4460 and 4661's mates were the two cars in the W'burg Br.accident/4427 was involved in a collision on the L line I believe at Bushwick Ave.). But the R32 definitely has the most mismatched married pairs at least in the B division.
Oops! I meant 5616-5617-6203-6202.
I sort of suspected that destruction by accident could cause this, but maintenance problems never occurred to me. In other words if maintenance is the reason for this mispairing, 3559 & 3420 are probably paired somewhere else on the system, and there is no attempt to get the original pairs back together again?
The R-32s appear to have had more than their fair share of annulments and remarriages.:-)
zman179:
Those car number that you listed (5616-5617-6203-6202) are R-46 car numbers.
BMTJeff
Yes, I am aware of that. I was pointing out that just about every car class(in the B division anyway and excluding the R38) has at least one married pair/4 car unit with mismatching numbers.
Correct, there are no R38 Odd Couples; but four have been scrapped: they are #3990-3991 and #4000-4001.
wayne
Wayne-MrSlantR40
When they scrapped the R-38's,and with the redbirds to be scrapped or sunk,what happens to the side route and distination signs? Do they become available for sale to us subtalk fans,and if so how can we out of towners obtain them ?
Thanks
RonJ
Chances are the Transit Museum may offer them for sale, if they're salvaged. Cityana Gallery offered R-1/9 roller curtains, complete with mechanisms, for sale in the late 70s. I have examples of each - bulkhead and side.
That's a real good question, Ron. I would like to get an R40 side sign and also a front-end roll from R40 R40M or R42. I am STILL kicking myself for not getting more than one R32 front-end roll when I had the chance to do so.
wayne
Wayne & Steve
Thanks for the reply.
I,like you have the whole side route/destination sign box from car R-9 / 1749 which I got from Branford in the mid 70's.The box still has the light fixture attached to it.Also has the route sign for TT,EE,& B via 6th Ave.
The route/ destination signs would be interesting to have from the cars you mentioned. If you find out these signs will become available, please post as I'm sure a lot of subtalks would be interested.
Thanks, Ron J.
Sounds like my sign box. It even has the light green paint which was applied to the car interiors at some point in the 60s. As was discussed in an earlier thread, I left the wiring for the lower sign lights intact and installed a wall plug. I currently have it signed for the D; looks as if I'll have to change the bottom sign to "Sixth Ave.-34th St." when the bridge tracks are swapped.
Steve B
Sure sounds like we have the same sign box.Did you use DC light bulbs?
I have to do some wiring on the box to get the upper and lower destination sign to light.You're right, will be changing the lower sign to Sixth Ave-34th street. The D train sign I love is a odd ball I used to ride during the early 60's Upper: 205th Street Lower: Fulton-Euclid Ave. This train had white and green marker lights. Crossed over to the Fulton line at Jay St and ran express to Euclid.There were at least 3 trains in the AM that did this. Why this routing when the other D's went Church Av or Coney Island, I could never figure out. Maybe you or someone has a answer for the Euclid routings.
Thanks, Ron J.
The R-38s are a happy bunch.:-)
Yes they are. Care to go exploring some later this month? BTW I DID get the day off 10.26.00
wayne
Sure.
That is R40M 4460 with R42 4665.
#4427 slid down the slippery slope in the Blizzard of 96, tried to mount #4428 (flattened his roof).
THE ODD COUPLES LIST is available in the Illustrated Car Roster, R32 Page. There are a total of 25 pairs. All mates are accounted for EXCEPT a few scrapped cars.
AND the R46 pair also finds: 5614-5615 alongside 6205-6204.
wayne
OK HERE IT IS AGAIN:
R32 MISMATCHED PAIRS ("Odd Couples")
As of April 24, 1999
In order, lowest even number to highest
--------------------------------------------------------
3348 - 3549 (note A)
3382 - 3831
3418 - 3863
3420 - 3645
3444 - 3777
3468 - 3445
3470 - 3919
3502 - 3905
3520 - 3891
3530 - 3741
3548 - 3593
3558 - 3421
3592 - 3469
3600 - 3503
3628 - 3669 (note B)
3644 - 3621
3650 - 3767
3658 - 3471
3740 - 3419
3776 - 3617
3830 - 3531
3862 - 3521
3890 - 3383
3904 - 3559
3918 - 3601
Note A - 3348 originally numbered 3659, converted from 'B' unit to 'A' unit
Note B - 3669 originally numbered 3668, converted from 'B' unit to 'A' unit; original 3669 wrecked 12-01-74; 3629 wrecked 5-71.
wayne
Funny, when I was a conductor, I first met my wife while I was operating on the E in cars 3444-3777. We may be an odd couple but we're definitely not mismatched!
That IS an unusual pairing, 3444/3777 but NOTHING's as odd as #3348.
wayne
10/05/2000
I didn't realize there were that many mis mated R-32's, but not as bad as the R-27/30's which were mismate heaven.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R-27s and R-30s were easier to swap around because they had couplers on the blind ends.
Wayne,
Thanks so much for the complete list. I had no idea that there would be so many. In looking at the numbers, it does look like many of them could be put back the way they should be, but the labor costs and the equipment downtime would be huge, so why bother!
A question about your note B, if I understand the numbering correctly isn't 3669 an A unit converted to a B?
Karl
The car that is today's #3669 was formerly 'A' unit #3668. The original #3669 was the car involved in Malbone II, on December 1, 1974. It took a HUGE hit in the right side and bent like a bow. There was three feet penetration just ahead of the #2 door. I was told they had to lift it out by Crane and put it on a flatbed truck to take it to CI where I guess it was ultimately scrapped. I wonder if they scrounged parts from it.
wayne
Considering the fact that the cars are about 35 years old now I guess that only 50 of the 600 having lost their original mates is probably not a bad percentage at all. I've never seen them in person, but the pictures I have seen indicate that they looked much better before they were rebuilt.
Thanks for all the info!
The R-32s as delivered were a sight to behold. Their blue doors really set them apart. I liked them the moment I boarded that first N train in 1965, and had it not been for all those rides on the A and the R-10s, the R-32s would be my all-time, hands down, favorite cars. They're my favorites among the current fleet.
Howdy.
My thrill as a kid in the 60's was to ride the T from Ditmars to CI in a brand new R32. I can still remember how brightly the sun would reflect from the trains when making the big turn to and from QBP while standing on the Beebe Av platform.
Astoria T-QT-QB-RR Railfan
>>>......blue doors really set them apart.<<<
THIS IS A TRIVIA POP QUIZ!!!!
Besides the R=32,
what other class of subway cars was,also, delivered with blue doors?
WAYNE SLANT40 is not allowed to answer. 8-0)
Peace,
ANDEE
The R11s!
Correct, also the r-42s.
BLUE DOOR R-42
Peace,
ANDEE
10/18/2000
Sorry R36#9346 and Andee !
The R-11's were delivered in 1949 with unpainted doors. the doors were painted in the mid 60's for the R-34 overhaul. Check the inside cover of the 2001 NYC Subways Calendar.
Also the R-42's were delivered with silver painted side doors. The storm door was painted blue. The blue doors were painted at the time the interiors receieved the tan walls and orange doors, (pre-GOH).
While we're at it, the R-38's were delivered with all silver doors except for the thin light blue pin stripe (side doors). Some got blue doors during the orange/tan interior period.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's right about the R-42s. Next time you watch The French Connection, pay particular attention to the train in the chase sequence and you'll see. That's how the R-42s looked when they were new. Incidentally, their doors had a light blue interior finish a la the R-32s, R-36s, and R-38s. Oh amd the slant R-40s, too.
Thanks for the clarification
Peace,
ANDEE
AND better still is the fact that only eight of the fleet are out of revenue service:
3616 - scrapped no other info available
3620 - frame bent
3629 - wreck (full nose)
3651 - scrapped no other info available
3669 (original car) wreck (side impact)
3934-3935 R32GE Parts Cars.
3766 - scrapped no other info available
R32- tough as nails. They will make fifty years for sure.
wayne
10/06/2000
[I was told they had to lift it out by Crane and put it on a flatbed truck to take it to CI ]
I photographed that car in the back of Coney Island yard (under the Belt Parkway, not on TA property), it was on it's trucks by the bumping block. So I guess it was towed to CI.
Bill "Newkirk"
What did the side route signs say? Did they have B/Wash. Hts.-6th Ave.-West End or something close?
I remember when the R-32s first ran on the B when that route was created. Back then, their BB signs had B overlays pasted over.
According to NY1 News, the new R-142 trains have been attacked with vandalism despit heightened security.
Two teenage suspects were caught etching tags on the seats, windows, and doors.
We're already off and running with the vandalism. Wait till the rest of the fleet starts coming in.
Like the guy on the old WPIX Channel 11 Editorial segment used to say, What's your opinion? We'd like to know?"
I heard something on WCBS 880 AM News about some kind of acid that was being used to etch "carvings" in windows that not even the mylar (or whatever it is) protectant could help. Is this true? Could someone clarify?
If these miscreants would put this useless energy to something good, imagine how much better off we'll all be.
--Mark
Yes, there was a small article in yesterdays Daily News. They use some kind of etching acid, available at hardware stores, combined with stencils to speed up the process of tagging. The problem is that if the etching acid becomes wet it gets reactivated thereby presenting significant risk that someone could be hurt.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think Train Dude mentioned this a few months ago.
Yes, he did, but he was unable to go into details at the time.
Peace,
ANDEE
(The problem is that if the etching acid becomes wet it gets
reactivated thereby presenting significant risk that someone could be hurt.)
In that case, add reckless endangerment to the list of charges. I guess they are using acid so the cops can't make them lick it off. One thing is for sure, any money they or their family have should diappear for repairs. I don't care if it costs more to try the case and collect than you get, we need that deterrant.
You are absolutely right.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why don't transit workers go out one night and vandalize their house? Turnabout it fair play and it would be enjoyable, strees relieving activity. I always get a kick out of destroying stuff.
Good sentiment in point but, don't you think that would be unfair to the law abiding citizens of the neighborhood? Having to live next door to a vandalized house?
Peace,
ANDEE
When the house next door is trashed, my house should look better in comparason. At least in theory.
True, but you have to look at the trashed house and the trashed house will lower the value of your house.
Peace,
ANDEE
A lot of times these vandals live and wallow in their own misery and filth.
To vandalize the hell-hole they call home would just be a waste of time.
Yes, I heard about the acid grafitti also. It was featured on Channel 2 News the other day.
It seems that some people are using this acid to tag up windows of the shops and restaurants in the SoHo area.
eventually they will take it off the market, knowing it is dangerous to the public. no headache for MTA when it happens and passengers will be safe. just like those cigarette lighter switch blades. or maybe they will sell it with scrutiny. you have to have a working reason to have it, but those ass hole vandals will have connections to people who use it for a real purpose.
And this is somehow surprising?
-Hank
BX New Flyer Artic Guy:
I heard about the vandalism on the new trains over WINS1010AM radio this morning. Apparently they etched the windows and some of the cars may have been marked up with magic markers. At this rate the new trains won't look like new trains after a short while. I wonder if vandals will wind up defacing trains before they even enter revenue service.
BMTJeff
why don't the MTA put High security look out at their yards and stations? put about 10 guys on a look out at the yards and stations where if vandals come around, they will get caught. also put up electrical fencil all around so when those stupid asses come to vandalize, they will get hurt. they deserve a lesson physically!
terrence (excuse my fustration)
Electric fencing, big mean dogs, armed guards and bright lights won't completely stop them. If they get caught make them clean the trains.
Too bad you can suspend them from taking the trains or buses.
make them clean it call the cops and send them to jail for six months to a year. that will stop them. every little bit helps. by the way, what da hell do these damn bastards get out of vandalizing property that is not theirs?! also, isn't it government property? cause if it is, then the government should make it a felony to destroy government property! please reply
terrence (again excuse my fustration)
Technically it is government property.
I don't see why they can't pass a law like that. That is actually a good idea. Then again, I'm not a lawyer so I can't say for sure if it can be done legally.
I mean, if someone was caught doing grafitti in the Municipal Building or Board of Ed Building, that would be considered an offense no doubt. So why not extend it to the trains (and schools while we're at it) also?
It's already a crime. The problem are catching them and convincing judges to impose appropriate sentences.
Grafitti, is a fact of life, while I do Not endorse it or encourage it. It is a fact of life.
Peace,
ANDEE
it sucks
Ya know that's just the problem, these people don't give a damn about anything. So what makes you think they'll care anything about these subway cars. I wish sombody would beat these vandils sense less, but then i guesse that would'nt be right also. Well in my opinion i hope they go to hell, because their just a bunch of bullies, they like taking advantage of things or people, and just maybe one day they'll get what's coming to them.
Too bad you can suspend them from taking the trains or buses.
I assume you meant to write can't suspend them etc.
I too support "banishing" vandals from using transit (I might have mentioned this once before, not sure). It involves the same concept as suspending the licenses of drunk drivers. Everyone knows full well that most people will keep on driving under suspension. But if someone is caught violating the suspension, he or she is in deep doo-doo. Connecticut, for example, has a manadatory 30 days for anyone caught driving while under a DWI suspension, with early releases prohibited regardless of the circumstances.
Much the same would work with transit. Let's say someone is caught vandalizing a train. In addition to any other penalties, he should be banned from using any form of transit for, say, five years. There's obviously no way to monitor compliance. But if he's caught on a subway or bus within that period, it's six months on Rikers Island, no buts, ifs or ands.
I know, this'll never happen. The Upper West Siders would hoot and holler about discrimination. But it's a nice thought.
it would be better if once caught send them straight to Rikers for six months to a year and ahalf in the slammer. that will slow down vandalism dramatically
Yeah, but watch that little pansy Norman Siegel and his fellow New York Civil Liberties Union wussies whine, bitch and moan about how unfair that would be. What that wuss Siegel and his fellow NYCLU Upper West Side pansies need is a couple or three years in Rikers or Sing-Sing. Let's see how they are when they come out.
Sorry, to go off on a tangent like that, but I hate how Siegel and his cronies are always on TV trying to get people who committ heinous crimes off scott-free on account of racism or police brutality.
That's because Norman and the West Side group all live in closed circuit-tv monitored, armed doorman-protected towers of ivory.
Let's see if you try to vandalize their property or their neighborhood. Then we'll see how understanding and sympathetic they are.
Where would you put them? The jails are already packed
Peace,
ANDEE
Let's take a lesson from Singapore. Public caining. It doesn't use up jail space, it hurts like *#(^$, it leaves a lasting impression (in more ways than one) and it's cheaper.
--Mark
will not work, child welfare will not allow sixteen year olds get cained. Plus some of those teenagers are kinky as hell and might like it(lol)
however, i have an idea that could work but might have minuses to it.
once caught vandalising government or private property, the person will go to jail for two years, on top of that,if the criminal is a teen, parent will have to pay a $2000 fine along with the sentence. (this is not to bail them out its a penalty). this has to be paid within 90 days. no installments. if parent or guardian doesn't comply withing 90 days, the sentence will be pushed up 1 year to 3 years. after criminal gets out, 6 months of probation. if criminal committs another vandalistic attack and has it on file that it was done, then put him or her away for 3-4 years in jail again. it sounds harsh but it would the best way to go. i think this would be the best way to slow down vandalism to a hault in this state. i wish i were governer on this situation, because those scrachiti vandals wouldn't see the day of light.
This country has the highest incarceration rate in the world (I do believe that is correct, but there might be a qualifyer) and comparative crime rate statistics show that it does not help reduce the crime rate. We are creating an army of people who will never be able to get meaningful employment and will only turn back to crime. If this this lock-em-up trend continues what happens when we have more people in jail than out of jail? If you added up the cost of putting people in jail for vandalism (counting future reductions in vandalism AND lost GDP because the person will never be able to get a job again) it is probably cheaper for society to continue to replace the windows.
squease em' in there some how! put em' in the janitors closet as extra room. or on the floor. they don't deserve a bed cause they are worthless.
Maybe we can put them in HeyPaul's room.
I supposed you could put one of those electronic ankle braclets on them that the U.S. Marshals Service and several states use for home detention. Those are supposed to go off when the person leaves their house or some specified area. In this case, you could set up some type of alarm system at each subway station to go off if they tried to enter.
It would be expensive -- there are a lot of entrances in the subway system -- but it would provide a little bit of justice.
Ah, but it would be a one-time expense, unlike the cost of removing graphitti.
I have had fare beaters jump in front of a cop. I spoke the required " pay your fare" in a loud voice over the booth mike and have had the cop do nothing! I have had illegal use of school passes with cops standing at the same turnstile and no penalty.
Cops should be required to arrest every fare beater. Raise the fine to $5000 for the first offense-mandatory. If they dont have it garnish their pay or tax refunds. They dont work- make them work cleaning the subways or city property.
>>> Cops should be required to arrest every fare beater. Raise the fine to $5000 for the first offense-mandatory. <<<
Let's not lose all sense of proportionality. A $5,000.00 fine for a $1.50 theft is a little extreme. A fine in the range of $300.00 to $500.00 should be adequate. And do the police physically arrest fare beaters or issue a summons similar to a traffic ticket? If it is necessary to arrest the person, there is a tendency in all police departments to ignore minor violations toward the end of a tour because of the extra time necessary to do the paperwork and book an arrestee. If there is a general tendency not to make any arrests at all it is an indication of low morale.
Also if a fare beater gets through the turnstile without paying without a police officer seeing him, just your saying "pay the fare" would not be enough for the police officer to make an arrest A police officer can make an arrest for a misdemeanor only if he/she has witnessed it. If his back was turned and only you saw the act, you would have to make a citizen's arrest, and ask the police officer to transport the person. You would also have to swear out a complaint and appear in court to testify against the offender. If you failed to go to court, and therefore the case was dismissed, you might be subject to a lawsuit for false arrest.
Tom
While we are not police, many officers will write a ticket if we sign the ticket as witness. SOme fare beaters will jump back out when we challenge them.
One repeat fare beater was ticketed by a cop in the station who got off a train. I saw the officer and told him of the repeat fare ebater. The person got a surprise from the officer and was almost taken downtown.
Catch them and cut there damm hands off.......( just kidding......)
As a non-Muslim, I actually do like this idea. I find graffiti of any kind repulsive especially on subway cars. With a penalty like this, vandals who get caught will surely kick their own sorry @$$e$ for ever thinking about it in the first place. Having a probation or a short prison term is just not enough to scare them away. They will never understand the beauty of subway cars and their importance if they know they can get away with some feeble punishment. Something like cutting their hands off, or one week without water, or forced castration mutilation would do the deed!
You're right BMT Jeff.
As soon as I saw those smooth lavender seats, I knew they were going to be fair game for vandalism.
It reminds me of the time back in the 80's when the R-62/62A's were entering service. They were not a week in service and someone had them marked up.
BX New Flyer Artic Guy:
I think that they should make the vandals clean up the trains that they mark up and replace the windows that they scratch up. Maybe if they had to work after doing the damage it may discourage them from doing it again.
BMTJeff
How disgusting is it too see that we live and work in a city filled with "animals" instead of normal people. Going to Philadelphia or any other city in the USA that has transit systems, where the heavy rail is still cleaner than ours and NO etch marks to be found either!...how amazing is that?...I am so sure those other cities have gangs too, but for some reason, they don't seem to bother vandalizing the transit sytems like they do here in NYC. Go figure, maybe those gangs are a "better class of people?"
not all gangs in NYC do that. the gangs here are more serious. it would be stupid little imature teenagers who cut school and have nothing better to do who mostly do this. scratching up subway cars and stuff is done bye them. what they need to do is put a set of transit cops. five for each train on them to patrol two cars each. on every subway train in NYC. i guess start with the cops in police academy for part of their training curiculum. it may not work however, its the last resort to stop vandals once and for all. the TA should step up on this seriously
Funny, I went to Boston recently and the cars didn't have a scratch nor did I see any litter. Picture that in nyc. HAHAHA!!
And I agree with you, NYC is a pit. But it could be worse, we could be in LA!
* "you could be in LA?:" you mean louisiania?? the trains are clean except newspapers on the floors etc. Not much grafitti & scratchitti
on the blue green & red lines ( when they do run STRIKE )....
also he could have meant "LA" ( LOWER ALABAMA ) !!!!
* smile when you say that !!
* "you could be in LA?:" you mean louisiania?? the trains are clean etc. except newspapers on the floors etc. Not much grafitti & scratchitti or damage caused by passengers etc..
on the blue green & red lines ( when they do run STRIKE )....
No, I mean LA,CA. But you already know how much I hate that place.
* I live near that place ....dont seem to like it too much either!!
what city do you love the most state & or town ??
( just thought i would ask ) thankz, salaam allah
did not care too much for ATALNTA either! the weather was always too bad !!
Yes, it's amazing how clean the T trains and stations can be. Rode the Red and Green Lines yesterday. Pretty good from what I saw.
About a month or 2 ago, I heard of an MTA plan to put cameras on the trains. Maybe the time is right for this, since you can't have a cop in every car. To all those civil libertarians who I can already hear whining, if you aren't doing anything wrong, then there should be nothing to worry about !
JDL
but what will cameras do? the criminal will just get away again and do more damage.
The cameras can help identify the perps. I think it is extremely likely that these vandals were caught doing something illegal before, and can, therefore, be caught.
if you aren't doing anything wrong, then there should be nothing to worry about !
So you feel fine about the government just getting up and searching your home? I thought not.
I agree cameras belong on the trains, but that's not the argument. In a public place, you don't have privacy in anything but your thoughts. A person sitting across from you can see you, so there's no problem with a guy on tape.
>>> In a public place, you don't have privacy in anything but your thoughts <<<
Although civil libertarians have no problem with cameras in public places to prevent vandalism or other crime, there is a privacy concern with computer programs now being developed that can pick out a specific individual in a crowd, and allow the government to follow his movements with overlapping cameras in all public places.
This result can be achieved now by having a surveillance team follow someone, but that is extremely expensive, so there is considerable review of the need before it is undertaken. If it could be automated and done without the high manpower expense, civil libertarians fear that it would be abused.
Tom
Pigs,
I was not talking about anyone's home. There's a huge difference, and I think you know that, between public and private. This is PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. There are cameras in office buildings, banks, and in many public places. The least we can do, is try and protect the fruits of our high NY taxes !
Now you are using the public privacy (or lack thereof) argument. But what you said about nothing to hide is totally wrong.
And did I disagree with you about the public cameras?
Next time when you respond to a message, finish reading it first.
Sorry, Pigs. I misunderstood your message. Hey, it was 3:30 in the morning ! Gimme a break here !
JDL
Although I don't plan on vandalizing subway cars I don't know what the future might bring and I would like to keep that option open. What if the MTA installs a sticker or sign that is offensive to me as a railfan? What if they put a cover over the railfan window? I would want to be able to deface said sign or remove said cover. Also what if I am scraping some smutchz off the railfan window and to the camera I appear to defacing it when the defacement was already there?
How is it that a brand-new Shoreliner III already has its vesibule doors scratched up? Not just one car, but whole trains, in fact! These trains (except a small few that stop at Marble Hill) all have incredibly long distances before their first discharge stop, too expensive for your average vandal to do this while the train is moving. I suspect it occurs from 125 to GCT, since Conductors never collect tickets unless they see you enter the same car they're in (all seat checks already have been collected). Or, in GCT, when the train just sits there (often with at least one door open). The worst, though, are the mirrors in the bathrooms on the trains. I have never seen a clear one. Also, the digital signs in Grand Central north for the really low and really high tracks have been hit (not that anyone ever sees them, when was the last time a train left track 102A or 117? I don't think 117 even is a "track" anymore!)
Even on Metro-North? Jeez, nothing that runs on rails is safe from vandals in New York. This is bad. Even SEPTA's commuter cars with the old interiors don't have scratched-up windows. Wake up, MTA!!!
Bottom line is that NYC is a very uncivilized city. Not to bash the place but I would leave if I wasn't stuck here. Having lived in NYC for 27 out of 29 years, I'm not just spilling sour grapes, I've just about had it.
Yep, I lived in the city for my whole life.
Im living in suffolk, going to school here.
I went to the city 2 weeks ago and what a big difference.
I hate going back now. Just love it out here.
Transpotation sucks but the lifestyle beats the city anyday. No subway though :(
Different things for different people. I TOTALLY DETEST suburbs, the lifestyle and everything they stand for. As soon as I have this oppurtunity, I'm moving out of this horrible Brooklyn neighborhood. I think it's horrible because of the few useful things within walking distance and the lack of a subway. It's even worse elsewhere. And even worse when I didn't have a car!
You're right zman. It's totally out of control.
You seem to be unable to live in any city. Not New York, not Los Angeles. Want to live in a shack in the woods in Montana? Go ahead!
How is it that a brand-new Shoreliner III already has its vesibule doors scratched up? Not just one car, but whole trains, in fact! These trains (except a small few that stop at Marble Hill) all have incredibly long distances before their first discharge stop,
too expensive for your average vandal to do this while the train is moving. I suspect it occurs from 125 to GCT, since Conductors never collect tickets unless they see you enter the same car they're in (all seat checks already have been collected). Or, in GCT, when the train just sits there (often with at least one door open).
Another possibility is that the car you saw had been used recently on the Waterbury branch. That branch is infamous for vandalism, attracting what seems like a lot of dirt balls among its ridership.
Yes, Philly's subways and trams are cleaner than ours (and they're faster, even the M4s). So are the stations. New York's a sad story when it comes to cleanliness. Look at it this way, New York is nowhere near Godliness
Philly is clean? obviously you have never been in the Market Street passageway-- reeks of urine. Broad Street line- they smoke on the platform in front of cops and nothing is done.
the problem is not NYC but today's generation having been raised without concepts of right and wrong. They think they can do what they want. Freedom has limits. Try to cross Times Square with no traffic light. You need order- suppose I decide that a red light means OK to go and you decide green is go-- we'd have big accidents.
In an organized society you need rules and they are set by the controlling people of a particular group.
I once told someone who jumped when I wouldnt let him in for free--
"I need a walkman, can I take yours"-- of course I did not want the thing but you should have seen the looks and words I got. I added "Well that is what you are doing with the subway." I can not print the answer I got--profanity.
It also in today's Daily News
http://nydailynews.com/2000-10-04/News_and_Views/Crime_File/a-82679.asp
As we all know the FRA cleared Aclea Express trainsets for 150mph NY to BOS and 130mph NY to WDC. I heard that they needed to install a 5th cab signal aspect indicating 2 clear blocks ahead and when trains revieved a Super Clear they could go 150mph. Is this new cab signal installed NY-BOS and does the lack of this cab signal NY-WDC limit the speed to 130? What would the cab signal display show, | over | (which is possible on existing equipment)? Too bad these signals are cab signals only. A Super Clear (flashing green I would guess) and an Approach Normal (green over flashing green maybe?) wayside signal would be cool.
I believe...New Rochelle to New Haven (MetroNorth)...is limited to 80 mph...someone correct me if I'm wrong....
I think it's 90 mph, but for a pretty short stretch.
The NYP-WDC 130 MPH speed restriction exists everywhere the 1930's style catenary suspension is in place, which includes all of WDC-NYP ex-PRR and some of the ex-NYP-New Haven portion of the route. The newer catenary betw. NH and Boston is designed to withstand the 150 MPH speed. It has to do with improvements in the tension. You can plainly see the differences in the suspension between the PRR style suspension, one suspension cable, looks like
.
|
.
and the new style suspension, 2 suspension cables, looks like
. .
\/
.
if you have traveled on both portions of the NEC.
That catenary restriction is total bull. If anything can withstand 150 mph its something designed in the 30's when over engineering was at its finest. I never heard of the Experimental Silverliners or the Metroliners having catenary problem when they were tested at speeds from 156-164 mph. Still I would not think the current 4 block system would work with 150mph or even 130mph running. When an engineer hits an advance approach he would have to reduce train speed by 105 mph in a single block.
I will have to look to see where I read about the catenary speed restrictions when I get home and let you know...
I'm sure the catenary restriction is a part of it (stipid FRA), but I think the extra cab signal might be required as well.
It's not the trolley or the 1930's design, it's the "ramping" of the wire as it goes under overhead bridges. The ramping is not designed for the 150 MPH speeds, the severity of angle of approach currently used causes the pans to leave the wire. The work of redesigning the ex-PRR/NH wire is underway, but there are a lot of bridges over the NEC in those areas and multiple tracks to be reconfigured. It's a big job and can only be done in low traffic periods.
Oh, that's a much more valid reason. Could they allow 150 on certain stretches like Midway to Fair? There are few if any bridges and that's where all the testing took place.
From the May, 2000 issue of Railway Age magazine:
Article: "Get Ready for a Great Ride"
By William C. Vantuono, Editor
Page 42:
"Here are the facts, as explained to Railway Age by both Amtrak and the supplier, the consortium of Bombardier and Alstom:
"…The trainset will operate at speeds up to 150 mph on the New York-Boston North End segment of the NEC, 135 mph on the New York-Washinton South End. The slower speed on the South End is due to the limitations of the old, Pennsylvania Railroad-vintage variable tension catenary system. The modern, constant tension catenary installed between New Haven, Conn., and Boston will easily accommodate 150 mph. The trainset has been run at speeds approaching 170 mph in Rhode Island…"
Disclaimer: Author and publication credited, and less than 400 words.
Visit Railway Age at www.railwayage.com.
Oh great, not sledgehammer engineering time again :/
Listen, the PRR's catenary system is incapeable of effectively and safely holding up to sustained 150mph operation. Neither is the New Haven's. The modern "French" (actually BRITISH) stuff you constantly complain is "too light" to withstand such operation, is, in fact, designed for it.
It also stays in place MUCH better than fixed tension. which moves all over the place, especially in turns. It also lasts longer, and is MUCH less prone to dewirements. In addition, it costs a lot less, and if the wire over one track goes down, it doesn't take down all the other tracks like PRR or New Haven style stuff does.
In short, it's a much better system.
I don't even think the new stuff is made out of Copper! How can you have catenary wire that not made from the best*/prettiest conductor? A wire failure will not always effect other tracks and the PRR tested many hi-speed trains w/ no problem. Maybe they should design a better pantograph. Like the Stiensen model they used back in the 30's. I love looking out the window and watching the messenger moving up and down while the auxilliary moves up and down in 10x time. Liberty green copper wire, big copper pipes and bars, chain insulators that scream hi-voltage, that's electric railroading. If variable tention is the problem then we need more struts and braces to beat that wayward wire into submission. I don't even know what holds the modern wire up. Maybe some sort of magic or govermnemt subsudy.
What about approach limited and approach medium. don't they come before a straight "approach?" I thought they were used to slow trains from Normal gradually over a series of blocks, to avoid the scenario you describe. But I'm just theorizing.
Dave
Approach Limited and Approach Medium are distant signals that come before a non-Stop interlocking. Amtrak uses a 4 block system with Advance Approach before Approach, but Advance Approach calls for a reduction to Limited speed (45) and concieveable a 150mph Acela could face a 105mph speed reduction.
By the way, I have found out that Acela Express service should start sometime around Nov. 7.
What happened to Oct 29?
"We never said October 29th, that must have been in a dream you were having. Perhaps you should see a psychiatrist about these hallucinations?" -Amtrak representative
It came after October 28 and before October 30
Any rumblings yet on when the final answer key for the exam will come out?
This article appeared in last Sundays NY TIMES real estate section. I hope all the NIMBYs read this so they can see how wrong they are about transit systems in their backyards.
http://www.nytoday.com/scripts/editorial.dll?fromspage=re/RealEstate.htm&categoryid=&only=y&bfromind=18&eeid=3154230&eetype=article&render=y&ck=&ver=2.10
I saw the article on the front page of the real estate section. I'm sure that it did little to comfort the NIMBYs, who probably see development as "sprawl."
BTW, there's not much point in posting NYTimes links after the date of the article. Unless you have a subscription to NYTines on-line edition, the link is only good for the day of publication.
[BTW, there's not much point in posting NYTimes links after the date of the article. Unless you have a subscription to NYTines on-line edition, the link is only good for the day of publication.]
There have been several posts on this subject in the past week or two. It's been pointed out that Sunday Magazine articles remain online for a week. It has been pointed out that SOME daily articles are still there 3 days later.
This particluar article from the Sunday Real Estate section is still online Thursday morning.
You're right! Sorry about that; I thought they all disappeared over night. The article is still on line today, 6 days after publication.
i know how those fartknockers got in. At Unionport there is a hole that was ripped open in the live wire gate facing the trees and bushes. they would run in there and and run up inside the cars since they aren't locked and the cars aren't connected via those springs that connect the cars for passenger safety. then thats when they started their vandalising. always seen that damn hole in the fence when passing on Dyre 5. TA should repair it after this.
(At Unionport there is a hole that was ripped open in the live wire gate facing the trees and bushes. Always seen that damn hole in the fence when passing on Dyre 5. TA should repair it after this.)
Maybe they should stake it out.
You know the old saying, "If they didn't want to cars vandalized they should have fixed the hole in the fence." A hole in the fence should be considered an open TA invitation to vandalize and if I were in charge I would consider a stakeout entrapment. Its like parking a luxury car in a slum. The owner should have no expectation of safety.
hole in the fence should be considered an open TA invitation to vandalize and if I were in charge I would consider
a stakeout entrapment. Its like parking a luxury car in a slum. The owner should have no expectation of safety.
I hope you're major isn't LAW! Neither of these situations are
entrapment. I agree that a hole in the fence is something the TA
should expect to be exploited, but that hardly gives vandals
license to do so. Equally, auto theft laws are not suspended
in "slums".
Entrapment means to coerce someone into committing a crime when
they would not ordinarily do so. Some clear-cut examples would
be an undercover narcotics officer threatening a buyer with violence
unless they made a purchase, or a highway cop coming up behind you
in an unmarked car in a single-lane road witha double-yellow line
and driving agressively to try to provoke you to speed.
Just up the voltage in the fence to like 1 - 5kv, but limit the current to .5 ma or so.
Any metal part they touch will remind them to not use that fence hole anymore, but it's not fatal.
Does anyone know whatever happened with that pilot program the NYCTA had running the Redbirds with the enclosed security cameras?
I remember a thread here that talked about it a while ago.
Was it a success or not? It seems that it would be. I remember there were posts that said those cars saw little or no vandalism in them.
Why not put cameras in these new trains? It seems that such a move would greatly reduce grafitti (and crime too).
it will happen. they will put them in. also mylar is resistant towards the "acid etch" that is used to scratch wintows.
Denver's LRVs have security cameras, one at each end. The cameras themselves are in the cabs, with a small hole in the bulkhead for the lens to go through. Graffiti has not been a problem, and even the upholstered seats are still in good shape.
Portland Oregon's max light rail is installing closed circuit cameras in all trains and buses.so far the trains are in good shape....
Anyone know what the deepest station in the system is? Every time I take the 4-5 to 59th st, I can't believe how many steps/escalators there are to get upstairs. Is this the deepest one?
ws
I believe the 4/5 are so low at 59th becasue the N/R are between them and the local 6. It was a dual contracts station, I believe.
I read that 191st Street on the 1/9 is the deepest station in the system.
Lexington Ave and Roosevelt Island on the 63rd St. line are also unusually deep.
191 Street is the deepest station.
Only the local platform was part of the original station. Both the express and the BMT platforms were added much later.
From a street surface-to-track level standpoint, 191st St. is the deepest, with the tracks 180 feet down. Roosevelt Island is the deepest relative to sea level, AFAIK, although I don't know the exact depth.
It was a dual contracts station, I believe.
The upper level was, but the lower level was cut from the tunnel walls in 1962.
191 St.(1/9) is the deepest station in the system. Others that are almost as deep are: 168 St.(1/9), 181 St.(1/9), Roosevelt Island(Q), and Lexington Ave.(Q).
Read the Line-By-Line descriptions on this site. I have measured most of the deep stations with my depth altimeter, and the depths are written into the descriptions.
take a number.. 191st Street it is.
Metro-North will open its Croton-Harmon Shop to the public on October 21, 2000 from 10am to 3pm. Admission is free. Equipment, maintenance areas, along with a Fall-folliage train ride can be seen. Free parking is availible at the Croton Station on the Hudson Line. Shuutle buses will run from the lot to the shop area.
Dear Sir,
Thank you for putting out the Metro North shop open house information!
Does anyone know if the North Croton area is open so I can see the SPV-2000's?
joe
Is the fantrip going to make a stop at the open house?
It would really help to further justify the 60 bucks for admission.
I almost forgot about it, but it starts now and runs through 12AM
Come at any time.
It WILL NOT be on Saturday.
I was just there, and nobody was there.
BTW my screename is R142
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
It was around 4pm when I got on a 7 express at Times Square. It was making a loud whistling sound (more than the normal charging), and for about 6 minutes from when I got on other T/O's and a supervisor came in the train. It was then announced the train was out of service. It sounded like some sort of brake pipe rupture.
Anyway the train on the other platform became 7 express, but it got pretty crowded along the way as we were the first train to come after about a 10 minute delay.
Well, after my recent ride on an ACMU train, I couldn't help but notice the odd variety of cars within the fleet, more than your average fleet diversity. So, after school today (yesterday) I decided to try and catalog every ACMU and what its characteristics were. I obviously missed a few (NWP Yard keeps one train home every day, Croton Harmon keeps one car, and I know I missed one Hudson Line departure because there are 3 trains that stay in Croton-Harmon). But, its more complete than anything else I've seen.
Click here.
I will be adding to it as I see more cars. 1158 is the one in Croton-Harmon, I don't expect to get close to it anytime soon.
Well, at Croton Harmon this Sunday (I've been going there a lot for some reason) I boarded a 30 minute late Amtrak train, which became a 45 minute late train because of engine problems. At the door, I asked the conductor the fare, he said $20 (yikes), and that the weekday fare would be going up this week to $19 (last year it was $13). I got on anyway, and waited for him to show up. A few minutes after we finally got moving, he came by and collected the seat checks. He did not seem to notice I didn't have one, and walked right by. Maybe he thought he got me at the door, or collected my check already, or was distracted, but somehow I got away with a free ride. To celebrate, I decided to treat myself to a meal at the café car, but they had just closed (glad I didn't pay, what shoddy service). Nobody got on at Yonkers (who would?), and we proceeded to NYP. The train went fast through Riverside park, and we held up a Circle Line boat at the swing bridge.
When we arrived at NYP, the Turboliner was across the platform, which became the 5:30 to Albany (with the same conductor). Now I know how they get it back to Albany to become the 12 Noon inbound on Monday (Mon-Thurs its the 4:30 to Albany, but not Friday).
This summer, coming down on the Ethan Allen, the train was 4 hours late and they said they would NOT be collecting the tickets AND gave away the food for free.
I got free food on my 4 hour late 3 Rivers. I'm glad it was late because I saw more of the line in the daylight.
Are there any photos or diagrams on the overhead belt systems that powered the machine shops of the 1900's as i'd like to model a machine shop with a traction car barn thanks.
Probably not what you want exactly, but the "Dave & Buster's" establishment in Philadelphia (and maybe their other locations as well) has a belt powered overhead fan system that's pretty interesting to trace out. And if you're a photography buff as well as a railfan stop by the NYC B&H Photo store on 9th Ave. It has an overhead package delivery system complete with switches and lifts...
A restaurant that at one time may have been a 1/2 decent trainwatching spot on SI, RH Tugs Restaurant on Richmond Terrace in Snug Harbor, has a belt-fan system as well. I recommend the baby-back ribs!
-Hank
karl... i love the look of the old machine shops with their belt driven machines... i have seen them in the boott cotton mills museum in lowell mass., which is the actual spinning and weaving floors of the cotton mill at that site... also the baltimore museum of industry has a machine shop which is belt driven...
i have a couple of book about old baltimore and pittsburgh... the baltimore book has a picture that i think you would find helpful... it is from the carroll park shops of the united railway and electrical company from 1901...you can clearly see the pulleys and shafts on the ceiling as well as a load of belts connected to machines on the floor level... there are workers in overalls around the machines, as well as two men in suits and derbys who are counting their millions :-)
i'd be happy to make you a copy of this and a couple of other photos of knitting mills... just e-mail me your address...
The A. C. Gilbert Company also had belt-driven machinery when American Flyer S gauge production began in 1946. It was gradually phased out.
Just this morning on the CBS morning show they were at a kazoo factory near Buffalo with belt-driven machinery. The belts all went to an axle that was hung from the cieling.
-Hank
Brooklyn Technical High School had two "belt jungles" into the 1970's, and may still have them today. Most of the kids that went there hated those shops, but they were actually the better shops, usually reserved for the Mechanical Course students. A large AC motor was mounted on a suspended platform at one end of the shop near the ceiling. A long shaft (or series of shafts) about 1" in diameter ran the length of the shop supported from the ceiling on friction bearing supports that were wrought iron castings in an inverted "U" shape. The shaft held large diameter pulleys (about 24" diameter) which drove through a system of metal stiched leather belts about 4-6" wide and 1/4" thick. The belts came down from the pulleys and wrapped around other pulleys on the individual machines. Wire mesh belt guards extended up above the machine to about ten feet. All of the machines had a clutch mechanism that allowed the pulley drive to turn at all times. Try to get a copy of "Machinery's Handbook" at the library. This book has information on belt driven machinery including drawings of the supports, pulleys, belts and general shop layout. Good luck!
As far as I know the East Broad Top RR in Rockhill Furnace, PA. still has their machine shop with an overhead belt system still intact, The railroad ceased operation as a common carrier in 1956, but everything was preserved and part of the railroad is still operated as a tourist operation.
“…the EBT shops, as with others of the time, was entirely based on steam power. A single large engine converted the steam to the extensive overhead system of shafts, belts and pulleys to machines all over the shops.”
Quote from the virtual tour of the EBT shop complex online.
"All of the belt, steam and air driven machinery and tools are still in the complex. Although the machinery no longer runs..."
Have you ever visited the EBT?
It's like a wonderful trip back in time!
I've gone to the Fall Spectacular each of the last 4 years. I have yet to visit the shop, since I go with a group of 3 to 5 people and majority rules. The shop tour hasn't been ruled out; it just hasn't worked out yet. This thread has whetted my appetite, though, and I'll lobby for it tomorrow.
That's right, the Spectacular is tomorrow. I unfortunately have never been to one of those weekends, or the old Winter Weekend that they used to have in February years ago. I did get up there about three weeks ago, to play tourist and take my annual train ride. EBT is only about sixty miles from where I live, and the drive is a scenic one.
I did get to see the machine shop many years ago through the kindness of Roy Wilburn who was the operations manager of the RR for many, many years.
Each time I visit, I can't help but wish that I could be transported in time back to the 1940's when the EBT was still an active railroad.
I took the East Broadtop shop tour on Saturday. The overhead belt system is awesome. The main shaft was driven by a stationary water-tube boiler and belts and shafts run all over the place. All the machinery, belts, and shafts are still there, with shafts running into adjacent rooms with their subsystems of belts and shafts still in place. One shaft exits the main shop building below ground level and travels through a trench covered by iron plates to the blacksmith shop next door, which has a vertical shaft in the corner running to the ceiling to run the machinery there. It's a fascinating system.
I also opted to ride the M-1, the gasoline-electric built by the EBT in 1926 using Brill's blueprints, since Brill refused to build just one narrow gauge car. It is the only gas-electric railroad car in North America still using its original machinery (the standard gauge gas-electrics were all converted to diesel or were scrapped).
The Rockhill Trolley Museum, as usual, operated a plethora of vintage trolleys, interurbans, snow plows, snow brushes, et. al.
The EBT, as usual on the occasion of its Fall Spectacular, had 4 steam locomotives running, as well as the M-1.
Your description of the machine shop is a lot better than anything I could have written, but it has been many years since I had my tour, I can't even remember that underground shaft!
I assume that the engines used were 12, 14, 15 & 17?
I should have gotten there Saturday, but I missed it again.
I assume that the engines used were 12, 14, 15 & 17?
Yes, and #16 was on display out in the yard. #16 had compressed air connected to its whistle and participated in the whistle blow (along with M-1, M-7 and the 4 engines under steam), but it sounded like an air horn.
We got an extended lecture from Prof. Glass on the second M-1 run because the locomotive pulling the train ahead of us suffered a malfunctioning lubricator and had to be hand lubricated while returning slowly to Orbisonia. It was repaired in time for the night train, but the last afternoon train was annulled because of the delay.
Thanks for your kind words.
Bob
You have never commented about the number of people attending the "Spectacular". Was the property really packed with fans? Was it to the point that parking was a problem? Did you get a chance to try some of those fries from the trailer near the roundhouse? I really miss the snack bar that they used to have in the station. One of the crewmen told me that they have removed all of the kitchen equipment from the room, so I guess that it will never be a snack bar again!
I am surprised that they were able to move #16 out of the roundhouse. I think the original intentions 30 years ago were to get those last two engines operational, but it never happened.
I didn't try the sweet potato fries.
The Spectacular was very well attended, more so than last year when the weather was damp. The local parking lots were full and the school grounds were filled with cars in spite of yellow tape at the end of the paved portion intended to discourage parking on the grass.
A number of people attended the EBT on Saturday and the Altoona Festival on Sunday; I suspect others did the reverse. Reportedly, all motels in the area were booked.
To all who answered my question,thanks i bought some 'o'scale machines which were available in the narrow gauge gazzette in the 70's they were for a overhead belt system model,so now i'll start to build this shop,and send the photos of the model online,again thanks. it's nice to know that one can find help on this site where we have a common intrest.
There have been numerous books published about the EBT, and I vaguely remember seeing a large picture in one of them of the actual machine shop. I have flipped thru the one book I still have, and it is not in that one. I wish I could remember which book I saw the picture to tell you where to look.
How is the TA going to solve the problem of mobility throught the R-143 trains with the transverse cabs? Married pairs are out of the question, in an emergency a cop would have to unlock 3-4 cab doors to get to the last car from the front. Four car sets would work for the Eastern Division, but that would require some C/R board repositioning (then again, spend a couple billion on new subway cars and that doesn't seem like too big a task). And the mainlines would need 5 car sets, which means that they cannot easily be sent to the Eastern division should service increases warrant it.
Possible solutions (other than linking):
Single cars with collapsible cabs (SEPTA BSS Style). Unlikely since the isolated nook created would be a vagrant's paradise.
No cabs (hear me out!). Have 3 double doorways, and one single end door at each end of the car, with conductor controls. Basically, an NJT Arrow 3 with more doorways.
They're at it again,
MTA SAYS HUNDREDS OF SAFETY CHECKS NEVER DONE
Peace,
ANDEE
I've been advised on this board that schedules for the subway lines are available at Jay Street. Where exactly would I find them there? Are they in an area that is accessible to the public only during business hours, or could I pick up schedules during the evening?
I plan on being in the city next week for non-rail activities, and hope to make a side trip. I appreciate the assistance.
Jim (RailBus)
In the Lobby of 370 Jay Street there is an Information center. That is where you find all the maps,etc,..I am not sure of the hours...you may be able to find them out by calling 718-330-1234.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks, ANDEE!
As info, I called NYCT customer service - the 370 Jay St. information center is open Monday through Fri from 9am to 5pm, as I expected.
Thanks again!
Jim (RailBus)
Is there a special way that double slip switches are referred to on interlocking model boards? Are there special lever designations?
It seems to me like you could draw the board to look like two normal switches laid out "point to point" (trailing then facing) and then have two switch levers. The thing is that in reality the lever represented on the left actually controls the _right_ set of points in the field. I laid out a "truth table" grid and the logic is the same both ways.
This is all a result of careful study of the new double slip that came UPS yesterday, and not based at all in railroading fact. --Please set me straight!
Dave
As with your question on L vs R, it depends on the railroad
and who designed the interlocking. Generally on 3 position
levers the L on the lever corresponds to the signal which is
left on the model board, but that's not always possible.
Consider two tracks converging which are one above the other
on the model board. The designer would probably assign the
home signals governing the trailing point move as an L-R
pair, but perhaps not.
I don't do model railroading, my hobby is 1:1 scale, but
if I were doing model signals, I'd only worry about these
details if I were modelling a specific prototype interlocking.
Then I'd try to get the drawings. Otherwise, just pick a
system which is consistent and generally follows the practices
of the railroad or type of railway you are trying to model.
Double-slip switches can be controlled with two lever functions,
or with a single lever normal-reverse. If you think of the
tracks approaching the double-slip as 1,2,3,4, then you can either
have 1-3/2-4 or 1-4/2-3 routing. All other combinations, while
physically possible to establish with the points, result in
interlocking conflicts. By the same logic, a crossover is almost
always controlled by a single lever for both switches.
Thanks for your response, informative as always.
The designer who wrote the book I've been referenceing, usually assigns the two signals governing diiferent legs of trailing point move to the same lever, and lets sWitch Correspondence determine which signal Home relay picks.
I'm not modelling specific prototypes, but just prototype practices, including relay designations, signal aspects, switch and signal numbers, etc. I made a conscious choice NOT to model approach locking, because I'm not insane. HO trains also stop on a dime, and deal with reversed points more gracefully, barring the occasional 800-scale-foot fall to the floor.
Half of my double slip is part of a crossover, and the other half is a singleton, so I have no choice but to use two levers.
Double slip is 3 & 5A
\
\
\
\ 3
____\________
\ 5A
\
\ 5B
________\_____
ASCII art doesn't work too well in this web-bbs software because
it eats whitespace.
If the book in question is Phillips Railway Signaling book from
the 1940s from Simmons-Boardman, then the interlockings and circuits
therein are lifted mostly from the AAR American Railway Signaling
Principles and Practices booklets, which in turn were generally
lifted from un-cited actual railways.
Yes, That's the book. It's a reprint I stumbled across at the California Railway Museum in Sacramento. Quite informative, although "Coded pulse" is the "latest thing"
Yes, ASCII bad. HTML good.
My "Big Yellow Signalling Book" has about five examples of interlocking plants that it refers to, two of which have Normal and Reverse signal levers, and three have Left, Normal and Right signal levers. So far so good.
Two of the examples with L,N,R levers show the "R" signals on the _right_, but the other one shows the "R" signals on the _left_ (?)
Did common practice vary from road to road, or is this some heinous typo, or do I have too much free time?
I'd like to know before I build my HO panels all backwards!
Dave
It can vary depending on the location. Trying to figure it out on your own could be a very tedious operation with no guarantee of getting it right. I have seen many times in the towers where the designations can be flipped around, sometimes for no apparent reason.
Just a quick reminder that a number of us SubTalkers will be heading up to BERA this weekend to ride some of the ol' reliable equipment (R-9, R-17, BRT Gate car #1227, etc.).
Hope to see some of you guys there.
BMTman
i've gotten word that doug "the demon" diamond will be piloting the malbone street disaster train reenactment, using two of the recently restored malbone street wrecked cars...unfortunately, time did not permit any brakes to be installed on the cars... join doug for a nice high speed run on the cars, as he seeks to break the current speed record going around hairpin turn...
the reenactment is planned for late in the afternoon on saturday, with the cars packed with ecstatic subtalkers who yearn to experience the thrill of a disaster... although i won't be on the car due to a sensitive stomach, i will be by the disaster site with equipment to measure the kinetic energy lost and the heat created after the crash... i am hoping to prove that the "heat death theory of the universe" is false...
be there to witness " farewell to fellow and gal subtalkers autumn ride in the country"
heypaul, your mentioning of the "Malbone reenactment" was supposed to be a surprise.
You just can't keep things quiet, huh? ;-)
BMTman
Not only can't he keep things quiet, he's far from funny also! Very far!
Lighten up! Will ya?
Peace,
ANDEE
heypaul,
Don't forget to take your camera!
karl... i just reminded myself a little while ago to try to get some shots of the gate cars... i promise that i, my personal photographer, or my publicity agent will get off some shots on saturday...( of the gate cars )
heypaul,
Thanks a lot! I sure wish that I could get up there for all the festivities. I am sure there will be a lot of subtalkers up there and I will be anxious to read all of the posts afterwards!
karl said: " I am sure there will be a lot of subtalkers up there and I will be anxious to read all of the posts afterwards! "
having all those subtalkers and other railfans up there will be enough to make me very anxious....
heypaul, I'm glad to see you're still with us, someone, in a pirate costume jumped off the Empire State Building last night.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, shiver me timbers, bucko!!
;-)
heypaul,
Whatever you do, don't let "BMTman" anywhere near 1227!
He wants to wreck it!
Have no fear, Karl, we're just having alittle fun, that's all.
BTW, 1227 is a personal favorite of mine (after all how can I live in Canarsie and NOT have an affinity for a BRT Gate car with authentic trolley pole operation?)
BMTman
I was just funning you right back Doug!
Any poster with a handle like BMTman could never do any harm to a retired subway car, even the maligned R-16, if there was one there.
1227 would be my favorite if I could have made the trip. 659,1349 and 1362 as well, but I imagine they will be hidden away in the back of one of the storage barns.
I'll try and get you some good shots of 1227 as it sits by the new-and-improved high-level platform, now dubbed "Avenue L" (as in the old Canarsie Line stop). Obviously, there's a joke in the name as it also means "Avenue El" ;-)
BMTman
I assume you will get some GREAT wrecked gate car shots after that daredevil, Doug, does his "Luciano Manuevour" at Branford ("Look, Ma, no brakes!!).
BMTman
I sure hope they don't let you within 500 feet of 1227!
Or your tape recorder!
Heypaul will be the special guest for the festivities. I say put a brake handle and reverse key in his hand, and let him run like the wind with 1689 in all of her blazing glory. The sun will now shine because 1689 is blessed with his presence.....
Quick, someone get a pic for the tabloids!
-Stef
thanks stef...
i will have to check with my attendants to see if they would permit subtalker's and other railfan's lives to be placed in my unstable hands... i swear to do nothing to harm 1689, but cannot guarantee the safety of the aforementioned people, especially those who do not find me funny...
I get the feeling heypaul will plant himself directly above the air compressor on 1689 and record it.
You may be right, my good man. It's time to get the tape recorder out again!
While he's there, he can get some Lo-V, Hi-V and R-17 sounds for audio recording.
-Stef
Malbone Steet disaster? What's that?
sarge... that was just another one of my attempts to lower the level of discourse here at subtalk...
You mean you were kidding about the reenactment? Next you'll be telling me that the Tooth Fairy isn't real either.
train dude said: " Next you'll be telling me that the Tooth Fairy isn't real either. "
i can't vouch for the tooth fairy's reality, but i must warn you that the tooth fairy is very politically incorrect..
And if I mentioned the Easter Bunny, I'd be getting E-Mail from the PETA people.
Then there's the Great Pumpkin.:-)
Give my regards to 1689 and 6688.
Will do, Steve.
I remember a while ago that I saw a 9 car #4 train running in revenue service.
Has anyone remembered if the #4 ran with less than 10 cars anytime within the last decade?
It could have been borrowed from the 3 Line at some point. It's the only thing that I can come up with.
-Stef
It couldn't have been recently as the R-62's have been permanently linked into 5-car sets for a few years now.
Wayne
For those of you who from time-to-time may have wondered, "What happened to the X train today?" (fill in any route for X)... read the wonderful new essay on A Day in the Life of a T/O written by Alex L. It's superb!
Thanks Todd. I should hire you as the site's press agent. :-)
How about "A Day in the Life of a Railfan"!
Now that would be interesting.
If you want I could day in the life my trip home on Wensday, although most of it will be me taking Midterms. My trip home might work because I might try an NJT Atlantic City line-Amtrak NEC connection. I'm visiting my uncle down the shore.
In the weather biz, Dave, you ALWAYS have to be thinking about "image." Maybe one day I'll come up with "A Day in the Life of a Radio Meteorologist," but only when my midday break includes a ride on a Slant-40 over Manny. It will be three years ago this coming Friday-after-Thanksgiving that I did just that with fellow SubTalker Jeremy Whiteman, and experienced a station overrun on the Brighton Line.
In the weather biz, Dave, you ALWAYS have to be thinking about "image." Maybe one day I'll come up with "A Day in the Life of a Radio Meteorologist," but only when my midday break includes a ride on a Slant-40 over Manny. It will be three years ago this coming Friday-after-Thanksgiving that I did just that with fellow SubTalker Jeremy Whiteman, and experienced a station overrun on the Brighton Line.
Reading that brought back painful memories of working in the A division back in 1994. I will NEVER do another pick in the IRT, so help me god.
We are looking for an employee in any of these tiles to do their story;
Tower
Station Supervisor
Subway Car Maintainer
RCI
Bus Maintainer
Cleaner--car and station. Both stories will be printed.
Other titles
be sure to let me know if you wish to remain anonymous or use your handle/real name.
Many pieces on this site started by requests to posters here. See your name in lights!
"86 St./72 St.: More people getting on and holding the doors. Break the rules and use the "Veg-o-matic" routine to get the doors shut."
What is the Veg-o-matic" routine?
I guessed they kept opening and closing those gillotine-esque Redbird doors untill people got the point or the severed limbs were pushed out of the way.
This morning I heard a PATH station agent at Grove Street talking about how the PA is seriously considering ways to lengthen the NWK-WTC trains to 10 cars. They want to do this by 2002. At Grove Street, the east end walls would be knocked out (revealing the original street entrance--which apparently still has the old ticket booth). I figure both NWK and WTC can already accommodate 10 car trains. Harrison can probably be extended easily... but Journal Sq. and most certainly Exchange Place are going to have problems. What will they do there-- "the first three cars do not open at Exchange Place"?
Giuliani will go nuts if, at the same time the PA is refusing to contribute to the N train extension to LaGuardia it is willing to spend money to reconfigure stations.
Aside from the regional equity aspects, it's probably a good idea.
What will they do there-- "the first three cars do not open at Exchange Place"?
It works for Metro-North !!
And at South Ferry, 145st...
LIRR: Kew Gardens, Forest Hills (1st 4); Pinelawn (Last 2)
SIR: Tompkinsville, Nassau, Atlantic (one door)
A common announcement on Metro-North (Conrail when I used to ride on it) used to be: "__________ will be next. People in the first two cars and the last two cars will have to move if they wish to get off." At Bridgeport, which could accommodate a 10-car train, some conductors would announce, "Bridgeport will be next. All the doors will open at Bridgeport."
On the NEC when they cannot use the local tracks, the C/R will announce "Passengers for _____ please use the door between the first and second cars." It takes about 7 minutes for a 10 car train to pick up and discharge passengers, and they must walk across the local track at track level. Once, a freight train was stopped about 50' from the stairs on the local track, and a woman was terrified to cross in front. They had to tell the LE of the freight train to turn off the headlights to get her to cross.
Another time (at Rahway), the passenger train had to wait for a 40 car freight train to pass before allowing people to detrain. They certainly weren't going to allow people to walk across 3 active Amtrak tracks to the other platform.
An interesting side question to his topic:
With the impending private sale of both the World Trade Center and the 2 NYC area airports, what, if anything, would justify the Port Authority's continued existance? Who would run the PATH should the PA cease to exist?
Hard to say since it's an interstate operation; I think NJT would be better suited to run it rather than the MTA; although maybe it's time to consider revamping the MTA so that it is truly metropolitan rather than just New York City and New York state's surrounding suburbs...
I like that-- MTA Hudson Tubes! then-use MetroCards and tokens and set up the turnstiles at all WTC and sixth ave stations for free transfer to subway within 2 hours.
RTO can call it D Division and use their current work force and facillities
Speaking as a New Jersey resident I would rather see the tubes flooded than handed over to the MTA. Because of attitude a non-partisan bi-state agency has to run the bridges and tunnels. This way there is no clear winner (which would mean a looser/bitter/angry state), only 2 loosers which in comparason bakes us both winners.
Speaking as a New Jersey resident I would rather see the tubes flooded than handed over to the MTA. Because of attitude a non-partisan bi-state agency has to run the bridges and tunnels. This way there is no clear winner (which would mean a looser/bitter/angry state), only 2 loosers which in comparason makes us both winners.
I agree the MTA taking over PATH would be a bad thing, but the PA could sure try harder to make the PATHs a little more attractive. Longer trains, nicers cars, more frequent midday service would all be pretty good. There is a whole demographic of people who are willing to use the Subway but wouldn't even consider riding the path
There is a whole demographic of people who are willing to use the Subway but wouldn't even consider riding the path
I'd say there are many more people who think exactly the opposite.
(There is a whole demographic of people who are willing to use the Subway but wouldn't even consider riding the path)
(I'd say there are many more people who think exactly the opposite.)
Peter's right. The higher subsidy, paid for in New York, make the PATH posh by subway standards.
I'd glady pay $1.50 for:
Better overnight/early am service--every 30 minutes is pathetic
better weekend service--every 15 minutes midday is bad.
I'd glady pay $1.50 for:
20 minute overnight after 1am until 5am
10 minute weekend service on Newark to WTC.
Abolish the "Around the World" hoboken/33rd train.
Direct Newark/33rd trains on weekends, midday-every other train weekdays and every train weekend from 33rd to JSQ would now go to Newark.Thye could use Yellow/Red marker lights
Look for a PATH station agent they'll help you.
PEACE,
Andee
Yes Direct Newark-33rd service is a must. So is better weekend and evening service. A lot of PATH riders transfer from commuter trains. Therefore the PATH trains should have interiors like nice commuter trains. Let's have some nice seats - BART-style cloth or the fake leather stuff, not plastic (yes I know the subway has plastic too but except for the E line they don't transfer from Commuter Rail). Let's make the stations cleaner, and how about bathrooms in Journal Square that one can actually use? In the 4 times in my life that I have been there they have been the most disgusting bathrooms I've ever seen in my life. Now for what they really need:
Hike the fare to 1.50 - but at the same time coordinate with NJTransit to provide passes that are valid on both services. Since NJTransit commuter rail uses distance-based fares, the passes would be issued in various amounts of money with the value printed on the front of the pass. In old-style systems, the passes would be flashed to the conductor who would give you the ticket. In POP systems you would simply swipe the card through the machine, and out comes your ticket. However tickets would not be issued more than 4 times on the same line in a day, and tickets would not be issued from the same station within 4 hours of each other, to prevent multiple people from swiping the card a bunch of times for all of them. All passes would be valid for unlimited rides on PATH, and those in excess of 2.00 face value would also work on the Newark Subway and Hudson-Bergen as well as have a 1.50 transfer value towards any express bus service operated by someone other than the new york companies (MTA, Green, Queens Surface, etc.).
but except for the E line they don't transfer from Commuter Rail
You've never been to New York on a weekday, have you?
Direct Newark-33rd: Umm... they do, its called New Jersey Transit. PATH doesn't want NJT as an enemy in competiton.
NJT like charges 2-3$ extra just to use the Tubes.
(There is a whole demographic of people who are willing to use the Subway but wouldn't even consider riding the path)
(I'd say there are many more people who think exactly the opposite.)
Peter's right. The higher subsidy, paid for in New York, make the PATH posh by subway standards.
It's not that PATH is posh in comparison to the subway. It isn't, except for the absence of scratchitti. But at least among some people, PATH has a better reputation, being viewed more as a commuter train with a generally upscale ridership than as a form of urban transit.
For a dollar what do they expect, Chanpaigne?
Good question. So fix it up, make it real nice and clean and charge 1.50
First you want to raise all the bridge/tunnel tolls in NY and put tolls on all the free bridges. Now you want to raise the PATH fares. Why are you so intent on raising prices in NY. I have an idea-Lets double all the light rail and bus fares in Tacoma!!!
Ideally, PATH would have been combined with the NYC subways and intergrated into the IRT system 60 years ago. If they had done that, you would have the Port Authority-MTA battle over rail operations you have today, and maybe they even would have extended the No. 7 train westward into N.J., when the suburban population started straining the highways leading into the city.
New York is the only major city that deliniates its subway lines so sharply along its borders. It would have been nice if someone could have done something about that before the don't-build-anything NIMBY ethos took hold, but only Robert Moses had the skill and smarts to pull off something like that, and we all know what his opinion of mass transit was.
Ideally, PATH would have been combined with the NYC subways and intergrated into the IRT system 60 years ago.
But because the H&M ran on PRR freight tracks from WALDO to DOCK that would have been impossible.
Which is why I said "ideally." PATH still couldn't merge with the IRT today even if the Port Authority and the MTA wanted it, until they get the FRA regulations removed.
They could do an OA--like they have for Staten Island. Call the OA company the MTA Hudson Tubes Operating Authority with their own crews, rules, facillities. MTA runs LIRR and Metro North- both class one railroads and the subways are not FRA.
I like the one pass idea- whoever runs the trains to Newark.
10/07/2000
Well with all this talk of privitzing things today, maybe they can sell PATH for private operation. Then the the new company can call itself the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad ! Of course finding a company president with name MacAdoo wouldn't hurt!
Bill "Newkirk"
The problem is that it doesn't make money. You'd either wind up with huge fare increases and reduced ridership, thus making the current bridge/tunnel situation even worse, or you'd need subsidies which would turn it into a "how can we get larger subsidies" game.
I would ride PATH for Champagne for a dollar. And I have no real reason to go to Jersey!!!
I still think what we need here is a regional transit system with free transfers between lines including the city subways and buses, PATH, and the HBLR.
With the impending private sale of both the World Trade Center and the 2 NYC area airports, what, if anything, would justify the Port Authority's continued existance? Who would run the PATH should the PA cease to exist?
Without the airports and the WTC, and leaving aside PATH for now, the Port Authority would still have the interstate bridges and tunnels, the Bus Terminal, and the seaport facilities.
One interesting factoid is the great profitability variation of the Port Authority's different activities. The bridges and tunnels are huge cash cows; the airports and the WTC are quite profitable; the seaport earns a modest profit; and the PABT and PATH are bottomless pits into which one pours money.
(One interesting factoid is the great profitability variation of the Port Authority's different activities. The bridges and tunnels are
huge cash cows; the airports and the WTC are quite profitable; the seaport earns a modest profit; and the PABT and PATH
are bottomless pits into which one pours money.)
I actually just had to write up an analysis of this. The GW Bridge, the trade center, and the airports are the money winners. The Lincoln Tunnel, believe it or not, is now LOSING money, since the tunnels have required a lot of interest paying reinvestments in recent years.
The PATH has cut the fat, and now covers about as much of its operating costs as the commuter railroads (44 percent), but far less than the subway (70-100 percent). At $1.50, it would be close to the coverage of the subway.
A decade ago, when the recession hit, MTA was forced to raise tolls and transit fares. The Port Authority cancelled a bunch of investments in New York instead, and used rising airport profits to cover the cost of keeping fares and tolls low. When New York objected, the PA claimed NYC didn't care enough about "the region." Wish we could get into that region that we are supposed to care about.
If PATH fares and PA tolls equaled MTA fares and tolls, the Port could fund the N to LaGuardia, a one-seat ride from JFK, a rail freight tunnel, etc. As it is, the only thing they want to fund is another commuter tunnel from New Jersey to Grand Central.
A decade ago, when the recession hit, MTA was forced to raise tolls and transit fares. The Port Authority cancelled a bunch of investments in New York instead, and used rising airport profits to cover the cost of keeping fares and tolls low. When New York objected, the PA claimed NYC didn't care enough about "the region." Wish we could get into that region that we are supposed to care about.
I have no particular like or dislike for the Port Authority, but they were absolutely 100% on the money with that comment. As observant SubTalkers may have noted, I have long deplored NYC's parochial, world-ends-at-the-Hudson viewpoint. It's the sort of viewpoint that enables the most devious corporations to get huge tax concessions by making utterly specious threats to relocate to Jersey City. It also is a viewpoint that is woefully obsolete, totally out of touch with current economic reality. And lastly, it is a viewpoint that most other cities do not follow, not with their much healthier regional ways of thinking.
Well, the word around the water cooler is that my employer, Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, will use the threats of moving it's ENTIRE operation out of the World Trade Center and across the Hudson to the Harborside Financial complex in Jersey City if they don't get a sweetheart of a new lease after the current one expires in 2002. Since MSDW is the WTC's largest and most high-profile tennant, I'd shudder to think of the lengths they'd go to keep them put.
Jeez, I hate that friggin' Harborside complex and I really would HATE to be forced to work there.
you should have seen the harborside 20years ago. it was a REAL dump then. PATH had is headquaters there before they moved. you a had to park out on the piers. if fact the whole area was a dump.
I dread going there. Compared to the WTC, there's NOTHING there. Not even a decent !@#$% hot dog stand.
Maybe New Jersey dosen't care for you either!
Wish we could get into that region that we are supposed to care about.
You make fun of us in your late nite Television and local news shows. You think out state is polluted and dirty and smelly. After years of maligining the region you want US to let you into it? Tough Cheese!
(You make fun of us in your late nite Television and local news shows. You think out state is polluted and dirty and smelly. After years of maligining the region you want US to let you into it? Tough Cheese!)
Not me. I like New Jersey. I got my Master's degree at Rutgers on scholarship.
Journal Square could probably handle the trains - during the platform renovations there, they moved the stop markers forward and then back, so they could close the ends of the platforms for the renovation work.
Exchange Place can handle 8-car trains westbound. Eastbound could handle 8-car trains (possibly excluding the PA-4's since their doors are closer to the ends). The problem is that the rear end of the eastbound platform has been encroached on by assorted wiring cabinets and storage.
The way to lengthen Exchange Place is to relocate the substation and shed in the westbound entrance to the pocket and excavate the station westward, and between the pocket track (L) and the G/H tracks. You could easily handle 16-car trains in this configuration.
It's really about time you people started to think REGIONALLY. It terme of business,transportation ... The sports industry is way ahead of you. i give you the GIANTS and JETS. They are in NJ but carry the NY logo and Name. Merge the Path and IRT . Run one seat and return between LGA and Newark. Extend the path via 6th ave to the #7 line. Through the Sunnyside yards and up the approach to the Hells gate Bridge , but branch off to Lga. Let folks from Connetecut have access to the airports via the Hellsgate. Connect Lga to jfk Via the Rockaway branch and the Nimby's be DAMNED. Take this region into the 21st century with the airports connected with FAST, I repeat FAST , one seat rides. Get on at an airport. Next stop from Newark airport, Newark, next stop Penn Station, Next stop either JFK of LGA. Maybe include Bridgeport.
avid
An ABC News reporter was on the platform at Jay Street today, asking people if (based on the NY Times report of missed inspections) they were worried about the signals. I said that I wasn't worried at all, but I was more interested in catching my train than my 15 minutes of fame, so I declined to be interviewed on camera.
I should have said that I am more worried about the Manhattan Bridge, but given that I have been involved in that issue at work, that probably wouldn't be P.C.
Does anyone have any inside information on the signals controversy -- ie. the report by the MTA inspector general that supervisors didn't always do back up signal inspections, then forged information as if they did?
There was an article in Wednesday's NY Times concerning the proposed "on time" criterion. It mentioned that the original system of recording the trains at the terminals was abandoned because the dispatchers routinely recorded inacurate arrival times.
The IG has reported several instances of forgery on supervisor time sheets with the object being increased overtime.
Al O'Leary was interviewed live on WCBS yesterday morning. The official thinkspeak is that these are data entry errors. He stated that there was a 2% error in data entry. He also stated that performance was the bottom line. He said that in the 1970's they had a derailment every 17 days and that now if they have a derailment once a year that we're in serious trouble.
A 2% error rate for data entry is not very good. There have been two derailments so far this year - Lex Ave and DeKalb Ave. So, I guess it's official - NYCT is in VERY SERIOUS trouble :-) The not very alert WCBS reporter did not note this contradiction.
(The IG has reported several instances of forgery on supervisor time sheets with the object being increased overtime.)
Failing to do your work during straight time, then getting it done during overtime, is the oldest scam in the public sector. My guess is those guys are nearing retirement, and trying to boost their pension with big OT for a year or two.
That's what NYC spends on. Funding for the non-profiteers, big pensions for the white welfare crowd, and interest on debts run up by those who have moved away. No wonder we can't build things, or pay public employees a decent wage.
I heard a month ago on the news that the MTA wanted to upgrade the signals on the 7 line to 1960 technology. Some people oppose saying that it was not worth it because the current signals are going to be replaced in 7 years. Does anyone have any details?
There is a saying that my teacher tells me it goes like this "We create what destroys us." People vandalize becuase nobody is contolling them, the law has no severe penalty, and the security at the yards are horrible.
I have looked at the vandalism on the trains ever since I joined subtalk, and I noticed that for the past 3 years the most of the grafitti and scratchitti (or however it's spelled) is mostly on the outside of the train. Not on the inside. I blame that on yard security...the security is poor, anyone with a gatecutter can enter a yard, with the trains standing there its like a canvas...
The other reason that vandalism runs amuck in the past and in the present is becuase of the parents of those children. They dont care about those children and lets those children go anywhere they want too, they join gangs, and they do vandalism. In the early 1900's to the 1950's there was no vadalism on the trains cause the parents though their children proper manners, and that was important.
Poor penality's for vadalism are also a problem, they need to make them tougher to make sure that they dont do it again, or they will pay.
We love the subway's, we need to keep it clean, but its not enough thats it only us.
Christopher Rivera
yes but some of those unruly teens and other vandals are done into it by the bad minded who influence them. some of these kids come from good homes. not all of them are from bad homes.most of them do it to mark gang territory. (will they ever get the pick that no territory belongs to them)some do it just for mischief reasons. they should toughen the laws after this has happened. give the gov't a couple of months to a year or so.
[Poor penalties for vandalism....]
A few years ago, Transit prosecuted some vandals and attempted to recover the cost (labor and materials) of replacing a damaged window. The judge sentenced the vandal(s) to community service instead, ruling that reimbursement would be "cruel and unusual" because the vandals were poor.
Just think: Asking people who impose costs on society to actually pay those costs is cruel and unusual. Oy!
>>> The judge sentenced the vandal(s) to community service instead, ruling that reimbursement would be "cruel and unusual" because the vandals were poor <<<
I am sure this was the judge in the criminal case. The idea of ordering restitution beyond the defendant's ability to pay is self defeating and not allowed. It is a scam used by white collar criminals to avoid serving prison terms. The defendant usually makes a deal to pay restitution of some large amount, ($750,000-$2 million) in exchange for no prison term, arguing that it he goes to prison he cannot earn the money to make the restitution. Once on probation he never gets around to paying the money back because (he claims) his conviction prevents him from honestly earning the amounts necessary to make the large payments. Since this country has no debtors' prison, he is not placed in jail for failing to pay the restitution. Finally to get the case off the books at the end of the probation term, the restitution order is modified to the amount already paid. With the vandals there would have been a similar result. They would have come back to court saying they could not earn the money necessary to pay, and finally they would be excused.
If the TA had sued the vandals for damages in a civil court, which they could easily do after the criminal conviction, they would have been awarded the full amount regardless of the defendants' ability to pay. The TA may have made a decision that because of the unlikelihood of collecting from the defendants, it was not worth the cost of bringing a civil case.
It is an unfortunate fact of life in our society those who are "judgment proof" can be much less responsible in their actions than the rest of us.
Tom
(If the TA had sued the vandals for damages in a civil court, which they could easily do after the criminal conviction, they would
have been awarded the full amount regardless of the defendants' ability to pay. The TA may have made a decision that because
of the unlikelihood of collecting from the defendants, it was not worth the cost of bringing a civil case. It is an unfortunate fact of life in our society those who are "judgment proof" can be much less responsible in their actions than the rest of us.)
They could make them work it off doing something unpleasant, at minimum wage.
>>> They could make them work it off doing something unpleasant, at minimum wage. <<<
Good idea, but first we have to repeal the 13th Amendment to the Constitution.
Let's see how long would a person have to work at minimum wage to pay off a $100,000 judgment, considering that you would have to leave him enough to get food and shelter, clothing and other necessities of life from his wages before paying a portion to the judgment, and the judgment will be accruing interest at the legal rate on the unpaid portion. You do the math.
Tom
If the TA had sued the vandals for damages in a civil court, which they could easily do after the criminal conviction, they would have been awarded the full amount regardless of the defendants' ability to pay. The TA may have made a decision that because of the unlikelihood of collecting from the defendants, it was not worth the cost of bringing a civil case.
That may have been a bad decision. Just because the vandals are poor today (if that's even true), doesn't mean that they'll be poor years from now. Court judgments in NYS are valid for ten years and can be renewed. By setting up the right procedures, the TA could get judgments today and periodically re-check the vandals' financial situations. Five, ten, even twenty years from now, the TA could seek to enforce the judgments. Imagine being a 35-year-old family man and suddenly finding your wages garnished because of some vandalism you did when you were 18? Schmuck!
>> By setting up the right procedures, the TA could get judgments today and periodically re-check the vandals' financial situations <<<
It sounds good, but as a strategy with all cases I do not know if it would work. I do not know the costs of obtaining a judgment in New York, but I assume it is about $500.00. So it starts out with a $500.00 bet that in the future the defendant will have some assets. You could expect to spend another $100-$200 each time you look for the person in the future to find out if he has assets. Once you find assets (like a job with a salary), the defendant may quit and go underground. These expenses without a return do not look good to the bean counters, and since the day of reckoning would be so far in the future it would not deter other vandals.
It might work if certain defendants were chosen, such as spoiled college kids who will be expected to have a good income, but OTOH these people might put up a fight which would increase the cost of obtaining the judgment.
I researched a situation in California in which a group of crooks used phoney American Express cards to obtain goods which they resold. All were convicted and sentenced to five years in prison. American Express sued all five to recover their losses. Four of the five defaulted and Amex got their judgment. The fifth, from prison, answered and cross-complained for false imprisonment. The case dragged on for more than three years with multiple appeals to the Appellate Courts and all the way up to the California Supreme Court. In the end Amex won, but the files in the case were about four feet thick, and from looking at the legal documents filed by Amex I would guess their legal bills were in the low six figures. It is extremely unlikely that they ever collected a penney on their judgments.
Tom
10/06/2000
[The judge sentenced the vandal(s) to community service instead, ruling that reimbursement would be "cruel and unusual" because the vandals were poor.]
"CRUEL & UNUSUAL"
Sounds like a bleeding heart judge to me. Why us it cruel ? Does the vandal have the right to deface public property and was illegally arrested for expressing their rights guaranteed by the constitution ?
Why is it UNUSUAL ? Vandals should not be punished and held responsible for their illegal actions ! The foundations of society are being chipped away by this cancer called liberalism.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ok,so let's assume the judges own car,or home was vandalized how would he then find the vandals,you see judges don't use public transportation like most of us do,they have schufured limos, so he they could care less how the condition of trains are......this dumbass judge sure has his head up his ass.
Will somebody please tell me what it was that happened on April 20, 1946 that goes everybody going in the first place? I'm clueless on that point.
>>> Will somebody please tell me what it was that happened on April 20, 1946 that goes everybody going in the first place? <<<
Fred;
At the risk of seeming rude to some of our fellow Subtalkers, let my point out that you can click on "Previous in Thread" at the top of each post and thus work your way back to the initial post.
April 20, 1946, was the date the Bridge-Jay St el station burned down.
Tom
I know that on my favorite line, the Sea Beach, the R68 is now the main car used, but, sorry to say, I forgot the other two trains that are used on that line. I believe the Slant 40's are one, but is there an R type also used. I believe that there were three, but I could be wrong about that, too. Forgive me, I live in California and only can ride the "N" when I get to New York. Can somebody clue me in?
Fred, it might be the R-44 or 46 cars that run on the "N" besides the hippos and the slants.
BMTman
Definitely not, its the R-32. No digital signs on the N.
Currently, only the R68, R40 slants and R32's run on the N. The R46 runs only on the E/F/G/R lines and the R44 is exclusively on the A.
the N has R-32, R40 Slants and R-68's on it.
--chris
I've also seen R-40M/R-42's on the N fairly recently.
Thank you gentlemen to all of you who responded to Sea Beach Fred about the type of cars used on his favorite train. I think it's a good idea to know what your favorite trains has in the way of cars.
The R40M/42 doesn't run on the N
10/06/2000
[The R40M/42 doesn't run on the N]
I didn't see this personally but heard about it. I believe this happened at the time of the recent Williamsburgh Bridge reconstruction closure.
Bill "Newkirk"
There were some R-42s on the N when they were new; in fact, 4572 and 4573 showed their N signs in The French Connection. I rode on an N of R-42s in July of 1971 and, man, did it ever move.
Yes, they did run on the N during the Willy B closure. I railfanned on one during this time.
3TM
It very briefly ran I think last summer. Probably saw it for about 3 days, then never again. Was nice to see something different, even with the 3 different types I see on my N.
=)
Your N? I like that. Good to see another Sea Beach fan on the web. BTW, when I lived in New York, the last 14 months were spent in Astoria. I lived in the Woodside Apartments and went to PS 10.
They do run on the N occasionally. I videotaped one at New Utrecht Ave in 1998.
--Mark
Yes, when the Willy-B rehab was going on, R-42/40Ms were shopped & stored at CI, and when the M didn't need them a few made their way onto the Q and N.
Yep. That's the only time I got to ride R42's on the Brighton express post GOH. They're as fast as the slants....
Well, for me, the Sea Beach line will always be associated with Standards and Triplexes, which held the fort until the mid-60s. No wimpy letters then; it wasn't the 'N' train, it was the Sea Beach Express (or manybe the No. 4).
-- Ed Sachs
As of today, as of 4PM, no decision has been made as to what car assignments will be made with respect to the Manhattan Bridge flip service/63rd St. connection service. As of this afternoon, there are 4 plans still being considered and there is nothing to say that new combinations will not be proposed. I am still reviewing the 4 plans but by far, the most interesting is option plan #3 which has the G service using eleven 4-car R-68 consists out of Coney Island.
One thing is clear. Heavy maintenance, SMS & floor replacement will need to be scaled back until the R-143s begin to come on line. The most optimistic projection is the 3rd quarter of 2001.
I'll post more as I review the plans in detail but Wayne better start using pencil.
10/06/2000
[I am still reviewing the 4 plans but by far, the most interesting is option plan #3 which has the G service using eleven 4-car R-68 consists out of Coney Island. ]
R-68's on the (G) ? That would be interesting. Crosstown Hippo's ?
Bill "Newkirk"
R68's on the G? That would stink as far as operating for OPTO. They are very uncomfortable trains to perform OPTO on.
Question: If this were to be implemented, would the G line maintenance fall into the hands of C.I.Yard or would Jamaica Yard still maintain control?
If the R-68s are used on the G, they will be maintained in Coney Island. Since the V train will be run out of Jamaica yard, the gain of the V fleet (16 full length trains)and the loss of the G fleet (11 4-car trains)will resut in a gain of more than 100 cars added to the already huge Jamaica fleet.
I would think that the R68 is better to perform OPTO on rather than an R46 (and an R44 for that matter). A motorman can operate an R68 standing up making door operation a bit less of a hassle. BTW this is why I am seriously considering working the Franklin shuttle next summer to get away from the furnace like summertime conditons at Jamaica Center & WTC without taking a big pay cut. On an R44/46, you have no choice to get up and down out of the seat at every station. I bet that this may be the reason why I have been seeing a few new seats on the R46, maybe guys are plopping themselves back into the seats on the weekend G and breaking/weakening them!
I'm one of those guys who HATES to operate standing up. I did that enough as a C/R. So for me it's uncomfortable to work an OPTO R68.
As far as doing a pick on the FS, you might wanna try the Rock Pk Shuttle instead. Unless 18 trips with nothing but timers(one set at 5 mph) tickles your fancy.
True but the size of me! I would need a shoehorn to get into and out of an R44 seat. And to do that at every station!.......I can easily stand up for a 5 minute trip and do my sitting in the crew room. At least if I have a BIE (which I had to walk around 3x in 3 months, a horrible string of bad luck), I would only have 2 cars to walk around, and the noise of an all underground route! I started there when they closed the WillyB and by the time the winter pick is over, 4 picks of 4 trips per day with the prospect of another summer on the E makes a change of venue rather appetizing. Despite that the PM E line supervision and co-workers are among the nicest and most down to earth group of people I've ever had the pleasure of working with. With the exception of my home terminal Metropolitan Ave. of course!
Well for one thing, you are absolutely right as far as the people on the E and J/M are concerned.
But the three BIE's in three months is absolutely NOTHING.
On July 7th, I HAD FOUR BIE'S IN ONE DAY while working the pm 301 PAJ switching job. Now THAT'S bad luck!!!
I'm not so sure about one p.m supervisor on the E. You know who I mean.
I will assume that it is _not_ the R68A you are talking about.
You assume correctly
I just received my K-Line 2000 2nd edition catalog. They have added some pretty impressive reigonal equipment such as:
NJ Transit F40PH with 4 Comet II Coaches
Metro-North FL-9 with 4 'blue striped' coaches
LIRR RS-3 Loco in Blue & Orange paint wit Dashing Dan Logo and 4 heavyweight coaches.
LIRR MP-15 in Blue/Orange with a LIRR tankcar and a familiar B/W caboose in orange.
Nice stuff (albiet a bit pricey) if you model this reigon in O scale.
Okay, a language question ...
We've all seen those multilingual "no smoking" posters on subway cars, the ones with black backgrounds that repeat their message in 16 languages besides English. Most of the languages are identifiable: Spanish, Chinese, German, Korean, Russian, and so on. But two of them defy identification.
Two of the languages have a similar but not identical Arabic-style alphabet. One of them presumably is Arabic. But what about the other? I didn't know of any other languages using that kind of alphabet.
Another langugage is written in the Roman alphabet, and looks something like French (it isn't, there is regular French used elsewhere). Any ideas what that might be?
The line that says Onay okingsmay is Pig Latin.
Is Pig Latin now considered a foreign language in New York?
Better ask Pigs of Royal Island!!!
Peter,
It could be Creole.
B"H
one of them is hebrew
But Hebrew doesn't look like Arabic.
It's Urdu (but Farsi,spoken in Iran, also uses the Arabic alphabet)
I was just about to say Farsi.
Is Urdu really more common than Farsi that it would be more likely to end up on a poster?
What IS Urdu?
>>> What IS Urdu? <<<
A language used in Pakistan (and NYC).
Tom
Spotted on an uptown #3 this afternoon. On a poster advertising MVM's, someone had put a sticker that read, in essence, "These machines will replace token clerks. Who will help you if you are in trouble? Write the MTA." The sticker was about half the size of a standard sheet of paper, rather crudely printed with black letters on a white background.
I've seen those a lot. Are those even put up by token clerks? Or are politicians responsible?
Ceiling fixtures from the lower level concourse were taken by an electrical contractor during the recent renovations. The perp was arrested and is out on bail. Story in Friday’s Times.
I just read.that MetroNorth..will have its open house..Saturday
October 21st...from 10am to 4pm....I've been there before...And its
worth seeing....(MetroNorth to Croton Harmon...short walk to shops).
This is now beyond random bad luck.
Three five plus minute delays of the F train this week, following three discharges last week, all due to door problems! And this morning, the A was delayed due to door problems as well! Fortunately I was able to squeeze on a C. If the problems weren't cleared up, things would have gone down hill from there.
Once again my wife was on the delayed train. Once again I caught up with her at Jay Street, despite it being my day to drop off the kids at school. She was late for work three times this week.
To save a few minutes, I hopped the J for one stop at Broadway-Nassau. The floor of the car was full of cuts, some of which were filled in by bondo. The cuts appeared to be razor cuts.
What's going on here? Mass TWU sabotage, or a failure to maintain the trains strike? Has management ordered cutbacks in the maintenance schedule and parts purchases to "save the fare?" Maintenace cutbacks might explain the J and Redbirds, but would they do that to the R46es which they will need (based on their debt load) for 25 more years?
This is enough to turn a boring bureaucrat into a conspiracy theorist. Why change the on-time rules just now?
Until the last few weeks, I can recall few if any door-based delays for more than a decade.
This is now beyond random bad luck.
Three five plus minute delays of the F train this week, following three discharges last week, all due to door problems!
Did you get any car numbers? Maybe it's been the same trainset.
"Until the last few weeks, I can recall few if any door-based delays for more than a decade."
I suppose that I can give you the simple, honest answer. Whether you'll accept it is another story. The simple answer is:
SCHOOL IS OPEN
I see it every day. Kids holding doors until the motors overheat. Last weekend on 2 D trains, 36 pieces of glass had to be replaced. Stantion poles are bent from the miscreants swinging on them and even swing sashes torn off. It's a credit to the maintenance facilities that we can keep up with the amount of damage that we see on a daily basis. it's a credit to the TA that we maintain full service.
You mean the poles people hold on too? Those poles seem pretty strong.
Yup, them's the ones. They are ripped out from the floor and ceiling mounts, too.
("Until the last few weeks, I can recall few if any door-based delays for more than a decade." I suppose that I can give you the simple, honest answer. Whether you'll accept it is another story. The simple answer is: SCHOOL IS OPEN)
School has opened every year for the past decade, so something has changed. Either the kids are worse, or the maintenance is.
Hmmm. Crack epidemic from 1985-92. Children born addicted reach age 14 from 1999 to 2006. Sounds like to save his reputation Rudy had better get out of office before the crime rate starts going up.
The kids are worse!!
It would seem that the result of fewer police patrols on the trains since the Transit Police was disbanded is starting to show up. The morons are starting to take over again.
If you want to see door problems, then come down to Philly and ride the M-4 cars, in fact, a few months ago, The Philadelphia Daily News did three stories on the M-4 fleet, the first story, it was about the trucks cracking and the wheels falling off in the rail yard (good thing it was out of service or the next accident would make the 1990 30th Street accident look like a fender-bender). The next story was about the doors, either they do not open at all, or they open on the opposite the platform side (there is a perfectly good reason why not to lean against the door). The third story was about the seats, which is the least of the problems. They say new equipment will have bugs, the M-4's have a swarm, and I can't wait to transfer to Fern Rock.
Yesterday my train had a Door problem at the end of the AM Rush Hour.
The problem happened uptown at Astor Place at about 9:11AM. I had a R62A and the problem was a door got stuck in the pocket. The delay was 6 Minutes. I wanted to help my Conductor but he closed the doors on me so I went back in my cab thinking the problem was currected but it wasn't and my conductor told me he was handling it so I just left him alone. A T.S.S did arrive and fixed the problem. The conductor I was working with was a New Conductor out of school car. The problem was in the 8th car.
Worse and worse. My wife tells me she was in the door with the problem. Evidently the conductor wasn't aware the doors are going downhill. For five minutes he was yelling "let go of the door," but no one was holding it, and it was closed. Then he came down and isolated it.
He should have figured that something was wrong after 2 Minutes of having a hung guard light.
I remember seeing a door stuck in a pocket about 30 years ago. Don't remember the car class, although I'm tempted to say it was an R-42. A passenger finally reached in, took hold of the stuck leaf, and pulled it out. The train proceeded with no further delay.
I've pulled a stuck door out of a pocket a time or two, but not for a decade or more. The door problems went away. But now they are back.
I'm not sure how much is fact and how much is perception. Door delays do affect MDBF and MDBF has not been negatively impacted over the last year or two.
Recently a door was stuck in the pocket on a redbird on the 6 at 14st. The passengers standing there didn't feel like doing it, and I was waiting for the R-142a right behind, so I pulled it shut. Unfortunately, I had to do this 3 times because the C/R kept reopening the doors.
Well perhaps because alot of the damn riders hold doors and contribute problems. It seems door holding is happening much more often on the subway. Even on the elevator in Manhattan Mall today, the doors almost close until some nut yells "hold the f'ing elevator!" and puts his hand in there. It seems that especially on the Queens BLVD line and 6th avenue, door holding is happening at every station.
They really need to start cracking down on door holding!!
Can we possibly agree on a time(s)and spot to meet, say hello to each other and possibly have a group photo taken ?????
We did that at the Kendall Park, NJ model train show several months ago and it was a lot of fun. I will be up with my buddy on Saturday. I will bring that photo with me for all to see.
As far as the tooth fairy is concerned, I concur that it is very PI
(Politically Incorrect) but remeber that when you hear that whistle blow this weekend it's the TOOT FAIRY.
>>>...the TOOT FAIRY.<<<
That would be Doug.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey, I thought heypaul was the resident comedian.
Andee, are you giving some friendly competition to heypaul?
BMTman
I'll be at Branford at about 9:30 and will be helping out in various places. If 6688 comes out, and she most probably will since the weather appears to be good, I'll be with her as she goes down the line. How to identify me: i'll be wearing a blue Giants hat. Come over and say hello!
-Stef
I'll be there tomorrow. Here's what I'll look like. (And no, I'm not bringing my train with me :-)
Bob, are you the one on the rails or the bi-ped with the bi-focals???
That's what I wanna know!
;-)
BMTman
I shall be present.
I'm an easy spot... if you know the line.
I shall be present.
I'm an easy spot... if you know the line.
In keeping with the NY Theme weekend, I'll be wearing a Mets hat. Rooting for a SUBWAY SERIES. I think I'll be up there around 12:30PM. Depends on whether or not my friend needs to make a stop in Danbury. I'll know later today and may post it.
I wish I could, but it seems that NBC wants the #$@%@#% Yankees on TV, so the Mets game will be during the day (Go Mariners!) at 1 or 4pm.
-Hank
Now, now, Mr. E... the Yawnkees play
every other odd day.. and the Mets..
well.. you ain't seen nothing yet.
But the NY DAYS only comes around
the loop once every 365 days.. (or so).
I'd also mention the term "VCR".
I'd like to mention the terms 'Playoff' AND 'Tickets.'
Also things that don't come that often, especially, it seems, for the Mets.
-Hank
I'm working on the operations schedule right now. If SubTalkers
want to take a group shot, I'll put it on the board, probably
for around 3 PM.
And I'll take a SubTalker's photo tomorrow (Sat) at Seashore... it's our "Members' Day." I know at least four SubTalkers who will be there...
I have recently updated my website www.zdeno.com with the first pictures of the Queensboro Plaza master tower. It has the new model board as well at the control system that was installed with it. I also added a section about the Borough Hall compelex recently with many pictures.
Check all this out here:
The Other Side of the Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Look at this: http://www.zdeno.com/images/qbq_9_25_00/qbp-013s.jpg
Are they using windows? Maybe windows NT? GOd help us all.
UNix is prefered.
Hard to tell but that monitor sure is NICE!
--Mark
Could be Linux XWindows.
What is wrong with Windows NT/2000 anyway? Other than ignorant Microsoft bashing?
What is wrong with Windows NT/2000 anyway?
The problem is not with Windows NT/2000 or Microsoft per se but the type of programming required for a GUI and its application to a real time control system. The same problems apply to Xwindows.
The object is to produce a bug free system that will perform without "crashing" or require "frequent" resets.
GUI software is event driven. User action - pressing a key or moving a pointing device (mouse) - results in a software event. The OS processes each event. The processing of an event frequently results in more "events" being generated. Eventually, all the events are processed and a letter appears on the screen or a cursor moves.
Much embedded control software uses an older programming technique. I still refer to this technique as a "skip chain" which refers to the machine language instructions on the PDP5/8. Essentially a snapshot of the input signals is taken. The program then scans these inputs and completely processes each one in turn. Any secondary input changes - as a result of such processing - are not discovered until the next complete iteration.
The value of the older technique comes in debugging. All possible input combinations can be enumerated and tested. This technique is not completely possible with event driven software.
There is an additional complication with the multitasking OS. It interposes itself between the application and the I/O. Its behavior may be difficult to document, especially if it is proprietary. Open source OS's do have an advantage in this regard. However, the last thing a control application programmer wants to do is to have to scan thousands of lines of OS code to document some glitch. It is only marginally better than contacting Microsoft support. :-)
The best compromise is to build a loosely coupled multiprocessor system. Have single task embedded controllers do the control system application. Have them communicate with GUI-based administrative console(s). In this way the GUI can crash due to poor design, the operator playing flight simulator, the love virus, etc. The embedded control system controllers will keep on working. The administrative console will resume showing the control status, when it reboots.
I was wondering about the technical specs of this site like what type of computer is it running on, CPU Clock speed, RAM, system volume and type of connection to the internet.
SOmetimes it seems slow sometimes its so fast all during the same time of day.
There was a thread about this within the past few days. Why not search for posts made by me and you'll find it.
Proposed 2001 service for the E and W trains as of 10/2/00
W Train:
6A-10P M-F Astoria to Coney Island - Astoria Peak Direction express
Late Eves, M-F & Weekends Coney Island - 57th & 7th Ave.
Late Night Coney Island to 36th St/4th Av.
E Train:
Same as now except;
M-F Peak hours, selected trains will run to 179th St.
Once again, these are the current plans only and none of this is cast in stone.
More later
I want express to 179th St, but if it's only select E trains it's not terribly useful.
Howdy from Dallas,TX!
I have been following the threads and visiting the web site daily for the last month or so. I guess it's time to get out of the closet and become a subtalker.
My handle may be a bit lengthy but it refers to the time that I was an avid railfan during the 60's and 70's and rode the Astoria line regularly. I'll take suggestions for a better handle from the subtalk masses.
Anyway, back to the topic, the proposed W service looks just like the Astoria-West End T of the 60's. Look at the historical maps (pre-Chrystie) on the site. The point is why not call it the T instead of W.
(Note: I'm aware of the roll sign issues.)
Out of the closet...
Astoria T-QT-QB-RR Railfan
All they's got is a DIAMOND "W" in yellow; no "T" except in white on R32/R38 cars. I would have opted for the "T" for historical reasons but I guess NYCT's logic is: a) they HAVE a "W" to use; b) "W" is for "W"est End.
wayne
Howdy from Dallas,TX!
I have been following the threads and visiting the web site daily for the last month or so. I guess it's time to get out of the closet and become a subtalker.
My handle may be a bit lengthy but it refers to the time that I was an avid railfan during the 60's and 70's and rode the Astoria line regularly. I'll take suggestions for a better handle from the subtalk masses.
Anyway, back to the topic, the proposed W service looks just like the Astoria-West End T of the 60's. Look at the historical maps (pre-Chrystie) on the site. The point is why not call it the T instead of W.
(Note: I'm aware of the roll sign issues.)
Out of the closet...
Astoria T-QT-QB-RR Railfan
All they's got is a DIAMOND "W" in yellow; no "T" except in white on R32/R38 cars. I would have opted for the "T" for historical reasons but I guess NYCT's logic is: a) they HAVE a "W" to use; b) "W" is for "W"est End.
wayne
A few weeks ago, I noticed that my R46 (on the F) was flopping quite a bit at the station. If a few passengers got on or off at the same time, the whole car tilted accordingly. Then yesterday the same thing happenned on my R46 R train, and again today of the F!
Is this a design flaw or evidence of something broken? And is it harmelss?
Andrew
Basically, the entire car body is supported by 4 bolster springs springs. There are also 8 equalized springs but as the name suggests, they are not for load bearing purposes. What you describe could be normal or it could be evidence of a weak or broken bolster spring. The determination would be based on observation and visual examination of the spring. One tip-off that there is a problem would be the condition of the threshhold plate. If it's broken or crushed, then it's a pretty good indication that something needs to be looked at. Juast to put your mind at ease, the riden might be a little rough but in general, a broken bolster spring does not compromise the safety of the car.
Basically, the entire car body is supported by 4 bolster springs. There are also 8 equalized springs but as the name suggests, they are not for load bearing purposes. What you describe could be normal or it could be evidence of a weak or broken bolster spring. The determination would be based on observation and visual examination of the spring. One tip-off that there is a problem would be the condition of the threshhold plate. If it's broken or crushed, then it's a pretty good indication that something needs to be looked at. Juast to put your mind at ease, the riden might be a little rough but in general, a broken bolster spring does not compromise the safety of the car.
The same thing happens here in DC on some of the Rohr cars (and probably Breda as well sometimes but I never notice it). Just a few too many people getting on or off at the same time.
I notice that a lot. Especially when the trains are speeding by my stop, one or two cars will tilt back and forth. I rarely am paying enough attention to see it when people get on and off, though I do remember seeing this a few times. I've learned to ignore it.
If the R-46s are rocking back and forth on the Queens Blvd. local trains, maybe its in hommage to their predacessors on that line, the R-16s, which would s-l-o-w-l-y do a rhythmic rocking back and forth, front car to one side, next car to the other, and so on, as they entered and left the station.
Train Dude,
I read your post in regards to the 2001 car assigmnent & the 4 plans with the most interesting was the G train receiving R68 cars.
What I would like to know on what the three other car assignment line are.
Please post information on subtalk.
Regarding the B division car assignments, the plans cover multiple (6) pages so posting the entire plan would be tedious. I'll try to condense it, however.
As for the R-142s & 142As, since I'm not involved with A division operations, I couldn't give anything more than an educated guess.
Train Dude,
I would like to know on what lines the R142 & R142A cars are going to be assign to & how many each line will receive.
In addition, when the entire R142 & R142A cars are all in service, what will the car assignment be for the IRT lines.
Please post information on subtalk.
R-142A's are going to the 6 line.
R-142's are going to the 2 and 5 lines.
There is info about this in other areas of this site.
Do yourself a favor and explore.
Peace,
ANDEE
Follo, The R142s <--- are going ONLY to the 2 & 5 lines. the R142As<----- are going ONLY to the 6 line. They will never see the 7 line what a shame. Only if they decide to do some tests there. (ya right) Other wise those are the chosen lines for the new trains. the 7 line is supposedly going to recieve the R62As from the 3 & 6 lines (again ya right).
7211-15 are back at East 180th Street Yard as of this writing and are on the road in test mode. I thought they were going to 207th St? They have returned to the place where they started out months ago.
What's the scoop?
-Stef
As of now your guess is as good as mind. They should have been at 207 St for about 17 more days unless there working overtime to get the train running again for the final 15 Day road test.
I am looking forward to riding STCUM/MUCTC on my trip to Montreal this weekend. Don't know how much I'll get to 'cause I'll be traveling with my wife and some friends, and I'm the only railfan in the bunch. I found STCUM and MUCTC on the web, but I could only find versions in French, and I don't know the language well enough to translate. My questions follow:
1) Are Quebecans so pissed-off enough about being part of English-speaking Canada that they purposely make it difficult for English speaking tourists to get information about their city? (I realize that the people there speak French, and that it ought to be incumbent upon me to learn, but I only have about 16 hours!)
2) What do STCUM and MUCTC stand for and translate to in English?
3) Are there English signs and English-speaking personnel in the Metro and commuter stations? While we're at it, will the people speak English to you freely if they know you don't know French, or are they like the European French who look down their nose at you for not knowing their language?
I'll let u know how the Metro is when I get back...
[Are Quebecans so pissed-off enough about being part of English-speaking Canada that they purposely make it difficult for English speaking tourists to get information about their city? ]
I often hear about how French Canadians don't like Americans and are rude to us however I've been to the Province of Quebec three times, twice to Montreal and once riding around rural farm areas. All 3 times were day trips by motorcycle from Lake George where I was staying. I've never had any problem. Most were helpful, considerate and nice. I guess people remember the bad apples. Also maybe it was 'cause I was on a Harley. And of course being from NYC maybe I'm so used to rudeness I just don't recognize it anymore!!!
Are Quebecans so pissed-off enough about being part of English-speaking Canada that they purposely make it difficult for English speaking tourists to get information about their city?
I've been there, and I had no trouble speaking to anyone, and I barely know any French. Just first ask "Parlez-vous anglais?" ("Do you speak English?") and most likely they'll speak to you in English. Try to speak some French, and they'll understand you can't speak and help you out. Just about everyone is biligual. They are very friendly toward Americans there. Getting around the Metro is easy. Just bring a map and match the station names with what is on the map. I couldn't understand the annoucements or even begin to pronounce the names of the stations, but I got around fine.
To me, Montreal is is kind of like practice for going to Paris. Everyone speaks French, but when you mess up, everyone is like, "That's OK, we really speak English, too." It's a great city with great people and attractions, and subway.
STCUM stands for la Société de transport de la Communauté urbaine de Montréal. In English this translates as Montreal Urban Community Transport Corporation, which is what MUCTC stands for.
Here's the URL for the English version of their official site:
http://www.stcum.qc.ca/English/a-somm.htm
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Merci.
Train Dude,
Since you posted your page in regards to the B division car assignment & that the plan covers multiple (6) pages so posting the entire plan would be tedious & that you'll ondense it.
I would like to know if you'll be posting the 6 pages on the B division car assignment for 2001, if so, when will you have this posted.
Please post information on subtalk.
No. He refuses! What have they been telling you on BusTalk about addressing threads?
-Hank :)
I was looking at my 1987 subway map with the Manhattan Bridge Reroutes and noticed both the N and R ran late nights. Why didn't the MTA save the money and man power and do this?
E-179 Street, Queens to WTC, Manhattan, Local
G-Smith/9th Streets, Brooklyn to Queens Plaza, Queens
N-Coney Island, Brooklyn to Ditmars Boulevard, Queens, Local
R-95th Street, Brooklyn to 36th Street, Brooklyn
Because MTA is synonymous with "Lacks Common Sense!" :-)
LCS?
So ALCS stands for America Lacks Common Sense and NLCS stands for Nobody Lacks Common Sense?
Today I recieved some great news, Union Switch and Signal Co. (once thought to be burried in some muti-national corp) is alive and well and has their main operation based in Pittsburg. You can go to www.switch.com (appropiate!) and check out their products. The website says they are engaged in some project w/ the MTA. I flipped through their catalogue and noticed that it contained lots of new micro-processor based, hi-tech signaling equipmnt alongside all their traditional products last designed in the 30's. So if you buy US&S you'll have Y2K technology controling 1930's equipment. Unlike Stfetrain Signals where all their stuff is modular and made of plastic, US&S still offers the traditional H-8 searchlight and the origional model PRR position light dwarf. They have some modular stop-light stuff, but it is clearly an after thought. Check out the site and download the catalogue. Its ont 3 megs.
all I recieved was..ERROR
Try this:
Switch.Com
Try this:
Switch.Com
I knew I should have previewed first!!
I rode Metro North for the first time today. I wanted to find out what it was like and if there are any differences from LIRR. I noticed that their ASC sounds different. Also, there Trains seem alot taller. I actually had to step up to board Train number 8105 an M-3!Also their brake release sounds different, and I also saw a ACMU-1100. The controls look like a Subway cars. Also, the Engineer was like I will probably see you at the open house on the 21st. Also, how do their signals work? They have Cab signals, and signals at interlockings. like I saw Red, double red, and flashing green.
10/07/2000
[. Also, there Trains seem alot taller. ]
I think you mean a lot cleaner ! Seriously, maybe high rail was used which gave the appearance of a taller car. The car height is identical to the LIRR's.
Bill "Newkirk"
Red over Red = stop and stay
flashing green = cab speed (whatever the cab signal says)
These are technically standard signals.
if a conductor or motorman gets to work on mass transit, and is late for work due to a delay in service, is that an excusable lateness? how much extra time should a crew member schedule into his travel time to be "safe" from criticism that he did not leave early enough?
Rule #5b, in part, states that no employee shall be penalized for lateness that arises from a significant delay in mass transit. For practical purposes, significant is usually defined as a verifiable delay of 20 minutes or more.
We have to get car numbers, times, etc/ and then we must bring in a letter from non NYCT transit providers.
I leave early enough to allow for cancelled trains. In the event of a major problem I could call and ask for an emergency AVA (never had to do this!) whicht hey may or may not approve. I could as for non-paid time off (again they may or may not approve.)
If the time is approved (Paid or unpaid) we have to bring in a note from the transit service provider.
In a related issue: If we have a waterpipe break,etc. we have to bring the bill!
For a death in the immediate family( NO aunts, uncles, etc.unless actually living is same quarters as you.) we must bring an original death certificate. A Notarized copy is no good!
You are allowed two days. (Extra would be AVA or unpaid- both only if approved.)
If you dont bring the original you will be considered to have been AWOL and can face discipline including suspension and possible termination.
Thankfully I never had emergencies arise. The one time I would have had to use an emergency AVA was before I started working for NYCT.(That involved a transformer on the NorthEast Corrdior NJT catching fire. Amtrak used a diesel to push us to Newark. If I had been employed by NYCT at that time and had been late, absent I would have needed a written letter from NJT- not a delay notice but an actual written letter.)
The one time I had a problem it was because of a bus that didn't come. How do you prove the non-arrival of a NYCT bus that only runs once an hour?
I guess you could call the customer service number for the bus line's company and ask for a letter.
I guess you could call the customer service number for the bus line's company and ask for a letter. I have the same problem with NJT and leave early enough so i could wait the hour for the next train. (At nights and weekends they run fourly! and they dont run 24 hours except for special times.)
I tell that to some people who geripe abotu waiting 20 minutes for a late night subway! I'd gladfy have 20 minute overnight NJT service!(I know- it will never happen!)
It's not a private line; these are real NYCTA buses - they accept my pass in the farebox. It's just on weekend evenings and nights, they match the ferry schedule and run once an hour.
OK. Get the bus number, marker number(from the windshield) and if possible Bus Operator number. Give that to the dispatcher who shouild be able to verify the info. (That si what I would have to do for Stations.)
or(Sorry about that!) take the earlier ferry.
Of course this situation can be alleviated by simply having management put in bunk-beds, cots and funtons in Crews Quarters so that going home will become a moot question. Furthermore, NYCT employees with families could be relocated onto MTA property so the workers will have their families close at hand, making commuting unnecessary.
Sorry, for giving some ladder-climber in management a pelthora of ideas...;-)
BMTman
Just out of curiosity, what is the policy regarding lateness due to mass transit delays where you work?
They cut him in two with a breadknife and make him lick the floor clean with his tongue.
Did I mention that he would have to drink his morning coffee out of a rolled up newspaper?
Actually, the policy is pretty rough.
On your first lateness, the supervisor will have you recite and perform all of John Cleese's "Silly Walk" routines from "Monty Python".
On your second lateness, you must imitate RuPaul (not heypaul) in full regalia, in front of your colleges.
On third latenesses, the penalty involves being stripped naked and smeared with honey. Then feathers are poured on you, after which you are then paraded up and down Madison Avenue till sunset.
Needless to say, I've never been late to work.....;-)
BMTman
John Cleese says people were always asking him to do a silly walk, and that he hated it.
I would imagine Ron Palillo got tired of doing Horshack laughs after a while.
Steve, I'd also guess that Curly got tired of being smacked in the head by Larry and Moe.
BMTman
Why, soitanly.:-)
The MTA should let workers sign in at any station instead of a crew change point. Workers would be issued a PDA that can flash download any new bullitins or general orders. Workers would be issued their own workbelt and train tools. Radio and batteries could be picked up at the token booth. The worker would then proceede to the platform and wait there with a sign. The first T/O or C/O who's about to leave would see the new arrival waiting on the platform and do a "tag team" style trade off. Then the worker swipes his pass his payclock would start/stop.
Train Dude,
I would like to know if you happen to have the 6 page car assignment for the B division for 2001, if so, can you post some more information.
Please post information on subtalk.
I have already seen your request. Unless you have a specific question, I'll post the information as my time permits and as I feel it's relevant. The info on the W & G trains was relevant to current or past idscussions.
1. I will no longer respond to posts that are addressed to me.
2. I will no longer respond to posts that are addressed to others.
If I have something to say in response to a post, I will say it, but not if the post is in memorandum format. I suggest that others do the same.
David
To: David
From: Jeff H.
Subject: Memoranda
Sounds like a good policy!
To: Jeff H.
From: BMTman
Subject: Your Attempt at Humor
Please contract heypaulitis as soon as possible!
BTW, rev up 1689 ASAP as she will be quite popular this weekend..
To: David
From: 1SF9
Re: Memorandum
Who are you?
The authors of memo-type (and off-topic) posts are immediately added to my "Killfile" list.
anyone watching from 161 river ave platform over center field. nypd no hassels
Train Dude,
Can you post the car assignment for the Northern B & D train, the N two Q trains & the W train for 2001.
Car assignments? There isn't even a service plan yet. Please cease with your annoying requests for unavailable information.
it is becoming increasing apparent, even to me, that there are many people here whose need for attention will drive them to inundate this message board with a plethora of imbecilic, infantile, and incontinent messages...
to counteract this insult to our intelligence, i propose that we eliminate all handles from the posts... instead we should assign a random number with at least 5 digits to identify each new post...
this will make it harder for the attention seekers to achieve gratification...
unfortunately this will not be enough to discourage people who adapt aberrant punctuation and writing styles which they hope will further identify them... to discourage these pests, i propose that all messages be scanned and then rewritten in standard english...
finally, to promote a healthy atmosphere, all posts must end with: "have a nice day"
I'M ALL FOR THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(PS, this was not a post from Salaam allah)
If you were (both of you) would would have at least ended your post in "Have a nice day".
Have a nice day
-end transmission
* LEAVE MY NAME OUT OF THIS ( please ) Mr BMTman !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you are on your own on this & I am not included good luck !!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
What happened to talking about subways, and els, and subways running on els? Did we all miss something? The overwhelming number of us on this Board not only appreciate learning more about them, but want to share and learn. There's no time for little egos proclaiming that they have big bruises. The people in most parts of Yugoslavia now hope that mass transit will be restored. They have real problems. Who on this Board, for example, has ridden the systems there that need to be restored, and how much railway work (not political consensus) is required? Let's get to real stuff again.
8885 is back home at East 180th Street, preparing for service as a Gel Car once again. Time to stop those leaves from causing wheel slippage on Dyre Av!
It was definitely her. I noticed her in the middle of a consist heading north last night. How many cars do you know that are dressed in yellow and black and have the new style windows?
Question about the R-30 Gel Car. Does 8429 get to operate as the lead unit? And what does that car usually couple to?
-Stef
The two R-30 gel cars (8558 is the other) are not operable as lead units. (8429 even had its headlight boxes removed) They are sandwiched betwen two R-32's on each end.
All three gel cars were in Coney Island Shop for the last month being prepared for the fall.
Interesting note about 8885, Minor damage to #2 bulkhead still evident. Also numberboard on #1 end, Cab side is from 8884 with a 5 sticker over the 4.
-Mark
The last time I was on 8429, it had no sealed beams, no duplex gauge, and a leaky conductors emergency valve....BUT, you could still charge up and take power from its the #1 end.
I can't wait for the slow order coming into Newkrik on the Brighton Manhatan bound like they had last year. Wet Leaves!!!
What is the function of a "GEL" car?
Peace,
ANDEE
A gel car applies traction gel to the running rails in roadbed areas that collect leaves from trees during the fall season. The leaves in turn cause trains (trying to make a station stop) to skid and overshoot the station by getting wedged between the train's wheel and the running rail.
The following lines have the gel applied on all operable tracks in foliage areas:
A: From north of Aqueduct Racetrack to Howard Beach
D/Q: From Prospect Park to Avenue H
N: From north of 8th Avenue to 86th Street
5: From south of Morris Park to Dyre Avenue
Other areas that experience foliage problems but are not on the list of areas to be served by the gel train are:
A: Portal south of Grant Avenue and Far Rockaway-2 track
B/M: From south of 36th Street(portal) to south of 9th Avenue
L: Wilson Avenue southbound, From New Lots Avenue to Rockaway Parkway
M: From Fresh Pond Road to Metropolitan Avenue
Thanks
Was this car ever in revenue service, or did it serve its whole life as being a gel car? It would be hard to imagine a non-revenue service car getting a plain number like 8885, with those tilt-in windows and the straps and air conditioning units still in place. And what happened to 8884?
Picture of 8885 (80k)
Another Picture of 8885 (87k)
Those are my pictures of 8885. She remains essentially intact while being used in work service. The only reason she's in that status is because her mate was wrecked.
8884 was wrecked in a derailment at President Street, July 15, 1997. Car was sent into a wall after a switch changed positions under it. She was banged up and I assumed she was scrapped on the spot. One of the posters here says it was taken to Livonia Yard with it side shaved so it could clear the platforms on the way. There is no other info on the car.
-Stef
According to the Press Realeases on the CTA Web site, they have gotten approval from the House & Senate for the full funding for the Brown & Blue Line Douglas Projects. The President only has to sign the bill to make it official. Read fully about it at yourcta.com, news, press releases.
This has taken such a long time and been such a hard battle. I remember when the Illinois First happened and I thought that was the end of the funding battle. The CTA has fought a long time for this money. The CTA will use the money to completely rebuild the Elevated Structure on the Douglas/Cermak Branch of the Blue Line. It is pretty much a slow zone the entire route after Kildare when the route Elevates roughly at Keeler St all the way until it joins with the main line at Racine.
It will also pay for the expansion on the Brown Line from 6 to 8 car accomodating platforms. Interestingly enough, Chicago-l.org has reported that both Fullerton & Belmont will be rebuilt completely with the Brown Line project money. This is nice because the Red & Purple lines also serve these stations which are 8 car accessible, and they are used heavily by the booming neighborhoods they are in. The stairways to the platforms at both are dirty and grungy looking. The platforms are old and have historic value, I will hate to see them go, but new, handicapped accessible stations are vital with such high ridership at both of these stations.
I am very happy to hear this news. I can't wait for next year when both of these projects will be happening at the same time. I would assume they will both start next year as the CTA has stated. They have the Douglas fully planned out. I believe they still may have a few details to work on, on the Brown Line, but I hope they don't wait to long with it. It will be amazing if both of these are happening at the same time. The CTA spending millions of Dollars on two seperate rail projects at the same time, has this ever happened before??
BJ
Yes, it will remain open, however, it doesn't currently operate on week-ends. They will be able to do any work that would require trains to stop or cutting the power during the week-ends when the line is shut down anyway.
The Communities that surround the line have strongly urged the CTA to restore week-end service on the line. There is a very good chance that after the renovation it will receive week-end service again. I don't think it will get the 24 hour service back, but probably similar to the current weekday schedule, 7 days a week.
It already operates at the work-zone speed of 15 mph on most streches, so they will just have to slow trains down to 6 mph when workers are on the tracks during the project.
It will be interesting to see what, "architectural aspects" are added to the reconstructed stations. They claim they won't be built like the Green line renovated standard stations. They will actually have some appeal to the eye, not look like prison cells. We can only hope this will really be true. The Green Line is ok, but please, nothing like the Orange Line Stations.
BJ
The stations shouldn't be rebuilt in the first place! They're fine the way they are now. As for the 24-hour service, I think it should be restored too; it's not like the Congress gets used a lot at night, so if it's headways are increased, it won't be a big deal.
I hope you realize that both of these programs are a mistake. First, on the Douglas branch, I have never seen any assesments that say that trains must operate that slow, OR that the whole structure has to be replaced. I don't think the CTA has considered just installing new footings and repainting the steel. I'd like to see a real assesment on that lines. Also, the ridership does NOT justify spending $400 MILLION on that line!!!!! The structure is one thing, but none of the stations need to be replaced; just some minor cleanup and repainting is all that is needed.
As for the Ravenswood, the major problem is NOT the car length, it's signalling problems that cause trains to be delayed and therefore become packed to the brim once they pull into a station. The major choke point is the automated Tower 12 in the Loop, which takes forever to process line-ups for the many lines that go through it. If the CTA fixed the signalling, they could definately add more trains to the line. I've seen reports that the CTA actually plans to DECREASE the number of runs after the platforms are extended to 8 cars. What a stupid project!
All of the Ravenswood stations are in good condition and just need some TLC. Belmont and Fullerton could use wider stairways, but they don't need to be completely rebuilt, in my opinion. How many times have you seen a person in a wheelchair board a CTA train? I can count the number of times I've seen one on one hand, in my 6 years of extensive riding of the CTA. The ADA compliance factor is a load of crap.
[I can count the number of times I've seen one on one hand, in my 6 years of extensive riding of the CTA. The ADA compliance factor is a load of crap.]
Sorry if I'm getting a little off topic, butŠ
Has anyone ever heard of a profesor named Peter Singer. If you have, I would have to agree with him. Thats because we can spend BILLIONS of dollars to make our facilities ADA compliant, but the lives of disabled people are still as crappy as they were before. I've never seen a person in a wheelchair get on a rail vehicle, and have only seen a wheelchair lift used in a bus twice.
Also, has anybody heard of a presidential candidate named George W. Bush? And does anybody know that he is *against* stem cell research? And does anyone know what kind of diseases stem cell research can cure? And does anyone know how much more money would be available for projects such as the 2nd Avenue Subway if people with debilitating diseases that are presently eating up government funding were cured, could work, and did not have to receive government funding?
You've gone around a very broad circle to make an unrelated political point. The fact is that ADA requires accommodations be made ONLY where the cost of those accommodations are reasonable. As a person with a brother who has cerebral palsey, I privately support funding to make public & private establishments wheelchair accessible. In NYC, the MTA provides para-transit as an alternative. This suits my brother's needs. Elevators and escalators may be impractical or financially unrealistic in some coses. However, ADA compliance can also include braile signs or PA announcements that are visible as well as audible.
Now as I understand Stem Cell research, the primary benifit would be in the area of cancer cures. Since I know of no family that cancer has not touched, I think that this research should also be vigorously pursued. However, I don't understand your posting that makes the two mutually exclusive. Am I misunderstanding you?
Christopher Reeve is pushing for stem cell research because it might be useful in ameliorating spinal cord injuries. Stem cells are biologically primitive cells that have not yet differentiated into nerve, kidney, liver, skin, etc cells. Research might lead to ways to use them in treatment of many diseases and injury cases. The first stem cells were derived from aborted embryos, so there are political issues that have set research back 15 (or so) years (and counting).
Research into using stem cells to make nerve cells could help in treatment of spinal cord injury, MS, cerebral palsy, and other brain and nerve problems.
I don't want to start a fight with anybody, but the Douglas Branch deserves every penny of the $400 million it is getting for the renovation.
It was built almost 105 years ago!! How many structures from 105 years ago are still in use today?!?! It does need to be completely rebuilt for safety standards from the ground up. The Stations are very old, and dingy, and if they work with architects on them like promised, they may actually turn out ok. Right now they are poor excuses for a modern rail system, except for Cicero, 18th & Polk, all replaced in the 1970's or 80's. Cicero is cool, no columns in the platform. The Green Line after renovation can now handle a train twice the weight of any CTA train. The Diesel cranes probably are forbidden from entering the Douglas branch right now since they weigh so much. The could potentially do 55mph+ on the Green Line Structure, if they were regular rail cars.
I agree that Brown Line service could be worked out better with other things then expanding the station platform lenghts and trains. Although, I enjoy longer trains, especially when they zoom out of a station past you. Wellington and every other station with such narrow platforms are very poor though, and could use to atleast be widened out. The cage-fence entrance at Welllington is very nice though!
I personally think the renovation is great and very necessary. It will be a big step towards modernizing the CTA system. Maybe we could get speeds over 55 mph one day in the future?!?! The only really crappy, old stations that will be left after these projects are the Red Line North Side Stations and a few Purple also.
BJ
PS: Toured the New Morgan Street Entrance to UIC-Halsted friday, it is very nice. Handicapped acccessible with a new sloping ramp and accessible gate. The Street-level station house is very nice though, shiny metal Agent's both opposite the turnstiles. The CTA still is backwards though, I saw an A,B skip stop "rapid Transit" map on the platfrom at UIC-Halsted. Really nice to confuse new riders!!
The Green Line is still running on a structure that is 112 years old. The only thing replaced during the rehab were all of the footings. The structure was adjusted in a few places to allow for straighter curves, but besides that, the structure is the same as it was 112 years ago. And, appearently, the Douglas is in the same condition that the Green Line was in when it was shut down for renovation. So I don't see how they can justify spening $400 goddamn dollars on a line that doesen't have all that much ridership in the first place. Other alternatives, such as more local service on the paralleling BNSF railroad, which runs through more residential parts of the west side have not been considered. The Green Line daily ridership is still not anywhere near the pre-renovation levels, so don't believe that the CTA can't make half-assed decisions.
And cut the crap about the stations. I've been to every single one of them, and they are all architectrually interesting and in very good condition, considering their age. They are not dingy at all. The new stations that the CTA builds and has built in the past are extremely ugly and a waste of money. I almost never see anyone use the elevators that the CTA appearently considers so important.
Do you live in Chicago? Do you ride the "L" every day, like I do? Just wanted to know.
BTW, visit and learn a little more about the history of those "dingy" "L" stations, and maybe you'll appriciate them a little more.
112 years? 2000 - 112 = 1888 if my math is correct. In 1888, Chicago was in in the midst of its cable car era. (Chicago enjoyed the largest cable car system in the country). The first "L", the "Alley "L" on the South Side) was built in time for the Columbian Exposition in 1893.
I was off by 4 years.. it's still very old.
Jake, I agree that the CTA has made a lot of mistakes. Maybe the plans for the Douglas Branch of the Blue Line do constitute overkill. (I think you're right about the stations.) But the service is a lifeline for the neighborhoods along its route. The population of many of these communities (including Pilsen, Little Village, and the Town of Cicero) is increasing. The Burlington Northern Metra Line is already operating at capacity, so increasing local service isn't really a viable alternative. In the long run, ridership along the Douglas Branch should increase enough to warrant at least the structural overhaul that the line obviously needs.
Concerning the Green Line, it's true that ridership is still low in contrast to the pre-rehab numbers. But some of the areas served by this line, especially south of the Loop are beginning to experience an economic turnaround. So the Green Line project was considered an investment in the future.
The fact is that most residents of Pilsen and Little Village ride the bus, because it's more convienient. Most people live closer to 26th street than the Douglas...
And yes, if the minimum structural improvements are done to remove the slow zones and allow the structure to last for another 50 years, that's fine. The plan is just way overkill.
The worst mistake in CTA history is the cutting off of the 63rd Street "L" east of Cottage Grove. If it still ran all the way to Stony Island, the south branch of the Green Line would already be back to post-shutdown numbers. This was the single busiest transfer point from buses on the south side. In my opinion, it should be re-extended to Stony Island, and a huge bus transfer station should be built there.
Please bring me up to date on 63rd Street. Have they torn down the bridge over the IC tracks? It had been condemned, from what I hear. The CTA is making a huge mistake in cutting back on its rapid transit services.
One day someone will write a book about Chicago-style politics and the book will be about the east 63rd St "L". The bridge over the old Illinois Central was closed in 1982. The CTA and the city met with the community including the Woodlawn Organization (TWO) and service was put in place as far as University AV.
With Federal money the city built a 1000 foot extension to the "L" and included an intermodal station next to the Metra Electric at Dorchester for $14 -16 million. Federal money also built new stations at King Drive and Cottage Grove.
Then came the Green Line rehab, east 63rd's $31 million total tab was absorbed. Completion of the rehab was getting close when some community residents noticed no work was being conducted east of Cottage Grove. The news broke that Cottage Grove was to be the end of the line.
Both the Feds and the State denied support to dismantle the "L" east of Cottage Grove and both demanded to be recompensated fully. In the same month the city and the CTA celebrated the 100th anniversary of the Loop "L", the city demolished east 63rd. The steel in the unused 1000 feet of new structure was salvaged and today still is stacked next to the 61st street yard.
I think I've told this controversial story fairly, without mentioning personalities and rumors about people and institutions behind the scenes. Wouldn't make a good movie, but it would be a good book. I called it "The 30 Year Chess Gasme."
David Harrison
Oops! Thats "30 Year Chess Game."
David Harrison
Seems like my last message was redundant. I defer to David Harrison.
True. The CTA bridge over the IC tracks at 63rd Street was condemned well over a decade ago. Service was cut back to University Avenue, the first station west of the bridge. About five years ago, the easternmost mile of the Jackson Park Branch, between Cottage Grove and Stony Island was dismantled.
Just another ill-advised decision by those supposedly in charge of the CTA. So what else is new?
You could call it Chicago's version of the Jamaica line fiasco.
Hey Jake--
The CTA is a government agency, so of course they are going to waste money.
Personally, I like some of the new stations, maybe because I'm young!! Addison St. Red Line is very cool, especially with the CUBS paintings. My favorite Station is probably the new Library, State & Van Buren. It is modeled like a European Rail Station, very cool. When any major work is done on a line or stations, they have to make so many of them handicapped accessible, federal law!! I personally thing Howard is a very poor excuse for a station with the massive transfer point it is. I was happy to see it will be reconstructed between 2002-2005. According to the latest CTA 2001 budget release.
I live in Westmont and totally disagree about the BNSF comment. It needs more express trains towards the outer end of the line. It is running near or at capacity now. The Express Service from Downers Grove Main St. is great. I use it all of the time. The new saturday express train is, hopefully, the start of 7 day a week express service.
The two main concerns I have is speed of trains and ridership levels. People are attracted to clean & new stations. The CTA does a very crappy job of cleaning old stations. The Subway cleaning massive project they did didn't do much. The Blue Line looks like it had no work done at all. The Red is also very dirty again. New stations like State/Van Buren have a clean loook to them and will remain that way for a long time. You can't honestly say you like the old Chicago Avenue/State Station compared to what the new one is shaping up to be. The Speed of the Douglas line will only improve if the massive, waste of money, overhaul is done, so let it begin ASAP. Half of the fun of riding the L is the speed. When a train is going full blast at 55-58 mph and it shakes all around, what a thrill!
I try to ride the CTA atleast one day a week. I go to COD and have a 3 hour break between my classes. I also get out very early some days. I usually drive to Harlem/Lake, Forest Park, or 54th/Cermak and take a ride to downtown. If I have more time, then I transfer downtown and go on a another line.
I also love the city. Me and my friends go downtown all of the time. I usually make sure we get to ride the L, even if it isn't too far, like just to WaterTower. I am forced to live with my parents now going to COD and all. In 2 years though, when I transfer, me and my friends want to get into UIC and get an apartment on the North-Side of Chicago. It won't be easy, but I've had to live in desolate Westmont for the 1st 18, will be 20, years of my life. That needs to change.
BJ
PS: My Grandparents lived on Belmont Street with my mother when they first got married for only 2 years before moving back to Cicero. I am very excited that I will probably live near Belmont or on it in only a couple years, a couple miles east of where they lived!
The CTA spending millions of Dollars on two seperate rail projects at the same time, has this ever happened before??
Yes, around the late 1960s. The Dan Ryan expressway median line (now the south half of the Red Line) and the Kennedy expressway median line (Blue Line from Logan Square to Jefferson Park) were both constructed in the late 1960s. The Dan Ryan line opened in the fall of 1969 (October?) and the Jefferson Park extension opened a few months later (February, 1970, I beleive).
-- Ed Sachs
I hear this weekend during the day, the F train will not be running south of Kings Highway.
What are they doing there?
- Lyle Goldman
> I hear this weekend during the day, the F train will not be running south of Kings Highway.
> What are they doing there?
Doesn't anybody have any idea?
This is the second time you've repeated your messages.
If nobody answers, nobody has the answer.
10/13/2000
[> I hear this weekend during the day, the F train will not be running south of Kings Highway.
> What are they doing there?
Doesn't anybody have any idea? ]
I don't ! But I'm willing to bet if there is no service south of Kings Hwy.not even a shuttle, maybe switch replacement is in the offing. Either that or track work.
Bill "Newkirk"
Some kind of work at the bottom of the structure at W. 8th St.
I've heard a lot of talk about the PA selling operations and if the PATH was sold to the MTA (hypothectically speaking). If the happened, are the PATH and NYC subway lines/trains compatable with each other in any way. Would a merger make sense from a logistics point of view?
What I have read is that PATH trains could operate on the subway, but with a slight catch: they are the width of IRT trains, but have their stop arms (for the trippers at signals) on the left side of the train (looking forward from the T/O's position) like IND/BMT trains. Therefore, they would need to be fitted either with right-side stop arms (to run on the IRT) or with extension plates (to run on the IND/BMT). Perhaps they could run on the IRT behind a regular IRT car as the lead car - though I have no idea if the couplers are compatible.
However, NYCT subway cars cannot run on the PATH, due to the tight clearances and sharp curves in the "tubes". PATH cars are "shorter" than IRT cars in both senses: less long and less tall.
10/07/2000
[However, NYCT subway cars cannot run on the PATH, due to the tight clearances and sharp curves in the "tubes". PATH cars are "shorter" than IRT cars in both senses: less long and less tall.]
If the TA's IRT cars are 9 feet wide/51 feet long, wasn't the Class K cars of same dimensions ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They're the same size as IRT cars, but H&M/PATH cars are
designed to negotiate tighter radius curves in terms of
couplers, length of motor leads and air piping, etc.
PATH cars can run effectively on the Boston Blue Line if they get pantographs added, and conversely, Blue Line cars can run on the PATH if they get the pantographs removed, since the cars are very similar on the outside. The Blue Line also uses both right and left side trippers, the only system I have seen that has that.
If they knocked down the walls, I believe the F and PATH would have comon island platforms at 14th Street.
:)Andrew
No, I just looked at that. The PATH platform's north end is adjacent to the F fare control area at the south end, so where one ends, the other begins.
* The most defenseless vunerable unimportant neglected hardest working lowest paid & least cared about working poor continue to suffer downhill pain & sufering as the almighty god the L.A.- M.T.A. inflicts untold misery along with this absolutely "STEATH MAYOR" his dishonor the disgraceful dodo do nothing richard-riordan & his crooks, The crimminaly insane M.T.A. board trying to force the transit workers back into the stone age wages just because foothill transit employs & pays at a downhill rate & with no union protection whatsoever ??!!! What kind of bullshit is that ??
Finally i do not blame them for holding on to what they have got!!
The other transit systems like ""FOOTHILL TRANSIT"" needs to go to hell where they were created from! Now the county workers are going on strike, HELL LOS ANGELES IS SHUTTING DOWN ??...bosinia?? hmmmm...
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
I can't be the only one noticing that "plethora" had been popping up in different posts yesterday (Oops! now today as well).
What gives? Is there some new diease out there causing SubTalkers to use this rarely use word? Hmmmm....
I use this word often, ever since I saw Dr. McCoy use it in the Star Trek Nintendo game do describe a bunch of coins in a sewer grate.
I vote for conundrum as the next word
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought you might...:-)
Doug-
I hope you haven't begun a plethora of off-topic vocabulary posts.
Bob
LOL!
Why, it's becoming ubiquitous!
I dimly recall a bit of dialogue from the Burns and Allen TV series, circa 1955. The fussy neighbor (played by Larry Keating?) comments that there is a plethora of something or other; George replies, "Yeah, maybe even a plethora and a half."
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
To clarify the previous post regarding the assignment of cars for the G service, I'll post the 4 options. Again nothing has been decided.
Option one - 6-Car R-46s from Jamaica Yard
Option two - 8-car R-32s from Coney Island Yard
Option Three - 4-car R-68s from Coney Island
Option four - Same as option one
According to the plan, option three would result in changes to the D or W fleet assignments.
In option four the G assignment is the same as in option one. However, this plan also covers N, Q, R and V assignments and not just the G.
Why does option 4 exist if it is the same as option 1. Was this determined by the TA's department of redundacy department? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Obviously I didn't explain it clearly but the plan does not only cover the G line so while option 1 ands 4 may be the same for the G line, plans 1 & 4 are decidedly different for the N, Q, R and V lines.
If option three was selected, I wonder if there will be any danger of overcrowding.
Have 6-car G trains gotten to any level of overcrowding at any time during the day?
The trade off is seven 6-car trains or eleven 4-car trains, hence, capacity would be fairly equal.
Most likely the 4 car trains would be used 24 hours( did somebody say OPTO?)
As far as overcrowding, it won't be a problem on the G. There may be fewer if any seats available during the rush, but it will not get to jam packed proportions barring any extensive service delays. The only reason that they run 6 cars now is for Queens Blvd. service.
Only on the Queens Blvd. line, and when schools let out. Weekends and Friday evenings they do fine with 4 cars.
BTW: I recently noticed that the Friday evening 4 car Gs that run to 71/Continental have a conductor in the rear cab. At what point do they decide to ditch the C/R and go OPTO?
OPTO starts on the midnite tour just after midnite Saturday morning. Friday nites you have the daily PM conductors working and they finsih when the midnite guys come in. They don't go OPTO Friday evening because not all those T/O's are OPTO qualified and no sense having the conductors sitting around since most of them start their work day when the PM rush commences.
how do the plans efewct the other lines
will the r42's take over the redbirds when the reds leave on all the lines, besides the 2,5, and 6?
and can anyone give me a quick update on the R142's testings??
R42's cannot run in the IRT. They are used in BMT service only.
I think he meant R142. It was a typo.
How does the horsepower on a 10-car train of Redbirds add up? Is it 40 axles x (? hp) per axle = ?
In similar fashion, how does the horsepower on a 10-car R-142 train add up? Are there unpowered axles? Thanks.
Every car of the NYCT from R-26 to R-68A has 4 traction motors - each rated at 115 HP or 460 HP per car. R-110A cars have four 3 Phase 150 HP traction motors on the A cars only. R-110B have four 202 HP 3 Phase motors on the A cars only.
How do they safely fit all of those horses down into the tunnels?
You see, this is why stupid units like horsepower should be abandoned in favor of watts.
From heypaul I'd expect that question but from you I'd expect better :)
What about torque? Since that is the force that actually moves the train.
Thanks for the replies, which told me the horsepower of the trains up through the R-68 (460 per car, = 4600 per 10-car train). However, I still don't know the horsepower of the R-142 10-car trains because I don't know how many axles are powered. Thanks.
Train Dude,
I would like to know on what car assignment are being proposed for the D,N,Q,R,V & W lines for 2001.
Please post information on subtalk.
If you want to have your questions promptly answered, I strongly suggest that you do not address a particular person in your opening thread. Most personalized threads are going to be ignored by the person you are asking.
Follo,
We would all like you to stop it. Really.
Don't post any more repetitive questions on SubTalk.
Mark
the answer should be in the archives soon under the title" r110, r142,r143, rl60, the juice" or will be named something like that.
Dearest Follo: Since you always start new posts with the name of another poster here, I get the impression that you do not scan the rest of the topics to see if you questions were asked by others and answered by others. And you have the most annoying habit of asking the same question repetively every few hours like a whining 3 year old brat. Why don't you post an E mail address? I understand! At this point, since you are starting to drive me and others nuts, you may get some unkind E Mails! You seem to want minutes of meetings with every single proposal of subway & bus assignments listed for your benefit. We talk about too much hypothetical stuff on this board as it is! I suggest you take a TA test, get in the door, take promotions and become a TA bureaucrat to satisfy your appetite! BTW we had another obnoxious poster some time ago: James S. Li who was just as obnoxious. Are you guys the same person? Regards, Bill from Maspeth (was Bill from Greenpoint before Al Gore invented the Internet). P.S.: Please don't respond by starting a new thread beginning with "Bill from Maspeth". Thank you sooooooo much!
I believe that it is now the time to add Follo to our killfiles. He is another in line of "obnoxious posters" who refuse to take hints.
He is being added to my killfile tonight.
Did you see the cartoon in the Voice, where Al Gore as a kid has a time machine is his basement, and while He's inventing the internet and teaching the secrets of fire to the cro-magnons, his mom steps out of the future, 1974, and teaches his the "Union Label" song?
Time machines are the perfect excuse for all political mis-speaking!
follo can always get an email address for railfan questions and answers. He can always ignore the messages that aren't from Train Dude.
Below is the article about NYCT and Larry Reuter from the current Mass Transit Magazine (www.masstransitmag.com). It discusses the Lenox Rehab, Franklin Rehab, Metrocards and Capital Programs in depth. It is also very, very long...
-Harry
--------------------------
The Big Apple's new MTA NYCT
by Jim Duffy
Sept/Oct 2000
MTA New York City Transit is enjoying an unprecedented renaissance. This year, ridership has surpassed 7 million passengers a day on a rejuvenated 6,000-car subway system and 4,400-bus fleet that is fast becoming the cleanest in the world.
In New York City earlier this summer, 89 people were injured in a subway derailment. Every major news network covered the story, so it won't be rehashed here. Most extraordinary about the derailment was that the incident, indeed, was out of the ordinary. Quite a contrast from 20 years earlier.
In the 1970s, subway derailments in New York City averaged one every 18 days. Subway fires were even more common with about three a week. Crime on the city's subway system had gained worldwide attention. Like a precursor to the apocalypse, MTA NYCT was living a nightmare. So were the people working for and using the system.
By the late 1970s, everybody at NYCT was convinced the subway system was on the verge of total collapse. State and city officials recognized that drastic measures were needed to rebuild this vital resource for the city of New York. The health and economic vitality of the city depended on it.
Dick Ravitch took over the reins at MTA in 1979. He was a wealthy businessman with no transit experience. During the next four years he served as chairman, without pay, and he put together a program that ultimately saved the subway system and, indeed, the entire transportation system in New York City. His greatest accomplishment - creating a mechanism for massive capital funding - has stood the test of time, surviving several administrations in the city of New York and at the state capital in Albany.
Ravitch and the MTA sought and obtained state approval for a five-year capital program to rebuild the subway system. More importantly, he convinced state legislators that the initial infusion of cash would only be the beginning of a long and sustained effort; legislators should prepare themselves and their constituents for future, ongoing capital requests.
MTA NYCT turns the corner
Larry Reuter, now president of New York City Transit (NYCT), remembers the time prior to capital funding. "When people asked me where I worked, I would mumble something they couldn't hear. In those days we were in the headlines of every paper."
As part of the management team during the 1980s, Reuter helped put together the first capital plan. In 1990, he left New York to run the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority in San Jose and later, the Washington, D.C. Metropolitan Area Transit Authority. When he returned to NYCT as president in 1996, he found an organization on the upswing.
"We're pretty proud to say where we work now. Next week we'll be reporting to the board that on-time performance is a little over 95 percent on the subway, a record we haven't achieved in decades."
While the subway system is enjoying increased ridership, NYCT's bus fleet is experiencing unprecedented growth as well. "When I left here in the 1980s, we were predicting the bus fleet would be reduced to 3,200 buses," says Reuter. "When I came back here in 1996, it was still at 3,400. The bus fleet now is at 4,400 buses. The bus fleet is experiencing an absolute turnaround. It's pretty big growth, pretty dynamic right now."
Along with massive capital programs, several other factors have played a significant role in the revitalization at NYCT. One is a strong economy that has allowed the funding dollars to flow without significant political pain. Another is an activist city administration and police department determined to route out crime on the subways. Since the 1980s, subway crime has dropped 50 percent. The main reason: NYPD now cracks down on people who evade paying fares.
"When the police run background checks on these fare evaders, they find out a lot of them are criminals," says Reuter. "Some of these people have lengthy records and now the police are able to lock them up and put them away. We used to say we lost 3 percent of revenue, or $70 million annually to fare evasion. The last numbers I saw, that figure is down to about 0.43 percent."
On a wider scale, the New York Police Department (NYPD) started arresting graffiti artists and other petty criminals. At the same time, capital improvements brought new lighting systems to once darkened stations. As a result of these efforts, criminals moved out of the subways as more fare-paying riders moved in.
Then came MetroCard. No single factor has had a bigger impact in growing NYCT ridership in recent years. For the first time in history, NYCT passengers can now receive discounts, passes and, most importantly, free transfers between subway and buses. No longer needing to fumble through pockets and purses for subway tokens, riders can move quickly and conveniently through turnstiles and onto buses with the mere swipe of a card.
NYCT renaissance 2000
These improvements didn't come easily, or at little expense. MTA NYCT has dedicated roughly $24 billion in city, state and federal capital funds as of January 2000. By the end of 2004, that figure will rise to $34 billion. As a result, NYCT can now boast that all its cars, buses and tracks, as well as 60 percent of the infrastructure, are in a state of good repair.
From 1982 to 1999, NYCT purchased 1,775 subway cars and 5,149 new buses; overhauled 4,870 subway cars and 350 buses; restored 530 miles of track; built the 63rd Street connector tunnel that will open next year; and is constructing a new state-of-the-art rail control center to be completed in 2003.
Additionally, 16 bus depots were built or rebuilt. Nine rail car maintenance shops were rehabilitated, as were two car-overhaul shops.
Refurbished were 110 subway stations. New tunnel lighting was installed throughout 252 miles of tunnel. Signals were replaced across 446 track miles, with 56 more under construction.
The Archer Avenue and 63rd Street extensions opened, each with three new stations. Many other projects, major and minor, were completed or initiated between 1982 and 1999.
The pace of rebuilding and new construction continues today. Currently there are about 100 major construction projects underway, and a thousand smaller projects going at any one time.
Presiding over this new golden age is MTA chairman E. Virgil Conway, who is overseeing the first major expansion of mass transit service since the 1940s. Chairman Conway is determined to advance the system on all fronts. To that end he hired Larry Reuter as president who now oversees an operating budget of about $4 billion, bigger than the budgets of many U.S. cities and even a few small countries. Add to that an annual capital budget of more than $2 billion. By any measure, it's huge.
MTA employs about 65,000 people; of those, 46,000 work for Reuter at NYCT. "NYCT operates the entire subway system, almost 6,000 revenue subway cars running through 30 subway lines," says Reuter. "Plus we run the entire bus system in New York City, which right now is about 4,400 buses. We carry about 7 million people a day. We truly keep the city rolling."
Portions of the city's transit system under the MTA, but not under Reuter's control are: Metro-North Railroad, Long Island Railroad, Long Island Bus and Bridges and Tunnels. Those systems are separate from NYCT, which is by far the largest organization inside the MTA.
Returning to NYCT in 1996, Reuter made an immediate impact. He negotiated two major strike-averting agreements with the Transport Workers Union (TWU) in 1996 and 1999. He has presided over the planning, design and initial implementation of the computerization of the subway system, the first major change in New York City subway operations since 1904 when the system first opened. Additionally, Reuter and his team managed the single largest purchase of new technology subway cars in history: 1,080 new cars built by Bombardier and Kawasaki worth $1.4 billion.
Perhaps Reuter's finest accomplishment to date has been the successful implementation of a sophisticated $700-million Automated Fare Collection (AFC) system. In New York, it's known simply as MetroCard.
MetroCard
MetroCard Gold debuted July 4, 1997. Overnight, millions of New York City transit riders could transfer free from subway to bus, bus to subway, and bus to bus.
"The availability of MetroCards at the beginning for a system that's carrying 7 million people a day was a big issue for us," says Reuter. "The system had to, all-of-a-sudden, take all these transactions. It was a huge, huge undertaking."
While automatic turnstiles had been installed incrementally since 1992, and MetroCard was accepted on buses as early as 1995, MetroCard Gold was a different animal. It was the culmination of years of preparation for a one-fare system across the entire NYCT operation.
The new fare structure required the development of complex scheduling and charting to determine allowable transfers. For example, riders couldn't be allowed to "round trip," or ride downtown and back for free. But other transfers were allowable.
"To put a system in that accomplishes all that, on all of the 3,600 buses that we had at the time, that was a great success," says Reuter. "It went in with almost no glitches. That's when the thing turned and everybody, even the critics, started saying, 'Heh, this card is kind of nice.'
"When we first started putting the system in, this was probably one of the most criticized things we had ever done. It was in the papers constantly, about this big boondoggle the MTA is doing. They saw all these turnstiles and MetroCards and they said nobody's using it and that it doesn't work.
"I was the one going to all the board meetings, defending the system, telling people to give us time and not to worry about what the penetration is or how many people are using it. People couldn't understand it at the time, but the full benefits of the system wouldn't be realized until the whole system was installed at all the turnstiles. Until people could use the card to get on in the morning, use it during the day, and use it to get home again at night, people weren't going to use the card."
Now over 80 percent, or 5.6 million riders daily, use the card. Recently it was chosen as one of the hundred most popular items in the city of New York. NYCT has made MetroCard a household word.
In 1998, NYCT introduced Unlimited-Ride, seven-day and 30-day MetroCards so customers can take as many trips as they want for a fixed price.
While MetroCard became totally operational through the fare gates about three years ago, vending machines allowing customers to make additional purchases to their cards through rechargeable magnetic strips, like the kind on the back of charge cards, are still being installed. To date about 1,000 of the 2,500 machines are in. But that hasn't slowed the rapid increase in ridership, which is at an all time high.
Everyone at NYCT attributes the stunning success of MetroCard to its flexibility and convenience. Riders no longer have to fumble through their pockets for tokens. And now customers can actually ride the entire city for the standard $1.50 fare. Ridership gains have more than offset the discounts offered to riders.
Cubic Transportation Systems, Inc., San Diego, developed the MetroCard system, including barrier-type turnstiles that discourage fare evaders, and MetroCard vending machines. Cards are swiped at the turnstiles for high passenger throughput and fit into a printer box on buses.
MetroCard forces bus fleet to expand
Before MetroCard gained widespread acceptance, NYCT was actually scaling back the bus fleet due to decreasing ridership.
"When I first came here in the 1980s, there were 4,200 buses," says Reuter. "By 1986, we set 3,200 buses as where we saw it ultimately coming down to. It was going to take us 10 to 15 years to scale back. In 1996, we had cut back to about 3,400 buses. So we were almost there. Then MetroCard went in and, all of a sudden, wiped the slate clean. Twenty years worth of history is gone."
Ridership increases were so rapid that NYCT had to ramp up the fleet almost overnight. "We started seeing double digit ridership increases," says Reuter. "If you had looked at the bus ridership numbers on a graph prior, it looked like a downhill ski slope. Now it's the other way, an uphill slope. The bus fleet has had more percentage increase in ridership than the subway."
MetroCard's popularity has been extended by MTA to include other regional bus operations and commuter railroads.
"MetroCard is truly becoming the regional fare card in this area," says Reuter. "Many commuter rail passengers come into the city and transfer to the subway. So we worked out a deal with the railroads for a joint ticket. Now you can buy a monthly pass on the railroad and put it right on the back of the MetroCard.
"More and more organizations are asking how they can become a part of MetroCard. Ultimately we can see it becoming a great regional card for all of the different properties."
Even private bus companies in New York City have signed on. More than 1,200 private buses, franchised by the City of New York, carry the same fareboxes as NYCT buses. Green Bus, New York Bus and others provide their customers with MetroCard and offer free transfers to and from NYCT buses.
"MetroCard allowed us to do things we had never done in New York," says Reuter. "Like discounts. And passes. We couldn't do those things before with tokens."
The biggest problem for NYCT officials now is predicting ridership patterns to accommodate future growth and expansion of the system. "We're now having to predict something we never had to predict before," says Reuter. "Our customers never, ever had free transfers or discounted fares before, so it's all new to them, and to us. There's still a lot of crystal-balling in this. We have just had to tell people to bear with us until we can get a little smarter."
Currently, more than 82 percent of NYCT riders use MetroCard with less than 1,000 recharging vending machines in operation. By the end of 2000, a total of 2,594 ticketing machines will be installed throughout the New York transit system.
"Once those vending machines are installed, it becomes even easier for customers," says Reuter. "When customers come up to our token booth they still have to pay cash. With the machines they can use their credit cards or debit cards, as well as cash. Once that happens, I think you'll see that 82 percent go up to almost 100 percent."
"When I first got here, we were getting beat up by the board, the press and everybody else. They thought MetroCard was a big failure. Now all we hear is that MetroCard is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The reason is, it's now system-wide and makes sense for people to use it."
Managing growth with five-year capital programs
Now in its fifth five-year capital program - the largest in the city's history - MTA and NYCT have turned the corner from the long process of rebuilding the infrastructure to envisioning and constructing new subway lines and transit facilities.
The new five-year program runs through 2004 and includes capital spending of $17.5 billion, of which NYCT receives about $13.5 billion. Reuter says it will include the first and largest building of the subway system since the 1930s.
"We're for the first time going to be building the 2nd Avenue subway. We're going to be building a subway extension to LaGuardia Airport. We're going to be planning construction to build an extension to the Javits Center on the 7 line."
When complete, the 63rd Street Tunnel will connect the E and F lines in Queens through the tunnel into Manhattan. With a price tag of $635 million, the new connector will help alleviate subway traffic on the most heavily used subway lines: Lexington Avenue, E and F lines, which are currently running well beyond capacity. The connector will allow an additional 15 trains per hour. Scheduled to open in September 2001, the 63rd Street Tunnel represents the second largest public works project in New York state history. By opening day, the project will have taken five years: three years to dig and two years to outfit and finish.
Reuter says some of the biggest building projects since the 1930s are going to be started under the next capital program. "You're going to see a 2nd Avenue subway starting to be built. It will parallel the Lex Line to help us unload some of the congestion."
Construction will be helped along by three sections that are already dug. Says Reuter, "The 2nd Avenue subway and tunnel were conceived back in the 1950s and 1960s and actually started in the late 1960s. Then they ran out of money and the city and state suffered a period of financial problems."
One can only imagine what it will be like to build a brand new subway in downtown Manhattan in the 2000s. With all the skyscrapers to burrow under, some fairly deep tunnel sections will be required throughout Manhattan. Most of the island is rock, according to Reuter, which is actually good for building subways. "But you don't want the stations too deep because then you have these very long elevators or escalators to get people down there. So what we will probably end up with is fairly deep tunnel sections, then the train will come up to stations that aren't so deep. The stations will probably be built cut and cover. Those decisions haven't been made yet, but those are the types of engineering decisions that have to be made on a project like this as we go through the environmental process."
What will they do with all that excavated rock? NYCT vice president of communications Albert O'Leary offers a precedent. He notes that rock excavated during the original digging of the subway lines was used to build Manhattan College. "They used it as a quarry operation."
People familiar with Manhattan's crowded, narrow streets wonder how all that rock will find its way out of the city of Manhattan. The transport operation, in and of itself, will require sophisticated logistics and managerial nerves of steel.
Politics and 20-year plans
When asked about the viability of future five-year capital programs, Reuter explains how NYCT keeps city and state legislators in the vision loop. "Even though we do a five-year capital program, we're showing (in the plan documents) what the system's needs will be over the next 20 years. That way, everybody knows we'll be back in five years. The very first capital program didn't do that; it was all persuasion and personalities. But after that, the 20-year plan was believed to be the best way to keep perpetuating the program. Now when we go to Albany, one of the first questions we are asked is, 'What are your 20-year needs?' It's a key document. On the political side, it truly lays out the issue that this is a long-term program and that the next five years is only the next bite."
Along with the 20-year plan, transit funding in the state of New York really gained a strong foothold when legislators started tying the highway and transportation programs together. "That's how you build a coalition," says Reuter. "As long as the two programs are basically balanced, the support is there. The upstaters get downstate support for their highway program, and we get upstaters support for transportation. It's like any political process; it's about building consensus and coalitions."
Each five-year program thus far has incorporated different funding mechanisms. For example, a $3.8 billion transportation bond issue will go out to support the program this year. The bond issue will be half highway and half transportation.
"I can tell you from going to Albany and talking and lobbying, transportation and highway are tied very closely together," says Reuter. "Same is true on the federal level. We wouldn't be able to get a federal transit program without a federal highway program. It's all about balancing resources."
The master builder
With massive money coming in for capital programs, Reuter depends heavily on Mysore Nagaraja, vice president of new construction. As at other transit agencies across the country, construction has traditionally been a separate group from operations, with all the division that implies. Yet, in spite of the roughly 100 major construction jobs underway at any one time, Nagaraja has managed to forge a strong working relationship with the operating units at NYCT. That kind of teamwork between didn't necessarily exist in the 1980s.
"He's done a wonderful job of pushing those types of working relationships together," says Reuter. "It speaks well of his capabilities because engineers often just want to go out and do their engineering and design and construction management stuff and don't always care that much how it impacts the operation of the railroad. The operating people, on the other hand, care a lot more about operations than the construction management stuff. Nagaraja has been able to develop a very good balance and working relationship between the two. He truly views his job as being in support of operations. He's building their railroad and signal system and he has to make sure it's what they want and that it works for them. That makes all the difference in the world. I think that's one of NYCT's greatest accomplishments over the past five years."
Nagaraja also balances the needs of the community into the equation. On a system that operates 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, projects are never easy to schedule or complete. Business and civic leaders are often at odds with NYCT for the inconvenience caused by construction. The very nature of the work sets up some very interesting and often contentious issues.
O'Leary recalls a water problem in the main line at Lenox Avenue that had plagued the system for 90 years. The problem had been addressed on several occasions but never adequately repaired. The damage had taken its toll. If the water problem persisted, the subway would have to be shut down for good.
Says O'Leary, "We had to lower the water table in a 10-block area of Manhattan in order to go in and rebuild the invert, the floor and waterproof and replace the tracks. It happened in Harlem, a community that generally considers itself to get the short end of the stick on deals."
Reuter adds: "The water problem started getting so bad. There were geysers - artesian wells - pumping up. Obviously that corrodes the signal system and track and creates a lot of serious problems besides undermining the foundation of the subway. So we finally decided we needed to fix it and fix it right.
"We tasked Nagaraja and his people with coming up with a design to do that. We had a meeting with the people of Harlem. It was not a pleasant meeting. We heard, 'Oh, you're going to do this in Harlem, shut the system down. We've heard this before. It's racial. You're picking on Harlem.'
We said, "No, no. We're doing this for Harlem. This is going to be the first time that we're going to do the job right. We're going to get it done early. And we're going to provide great service during the process.'
"Nobody argued that we needed to fix the subway. They could see the artesian wells themselves. But they thought that there had to be a better way to fix it than to shut it down. We got into some pretty heated discussions with all the elected officials."
Reuter felt especially sensitive to the issues raised by the Harlem community. To help assure on-time completion, he incentivized the main contractor to complete the job early. "I'm a big believer that credibility is 99 percent of the battle. People have to believe you. We paid a lot of money to the contractor to complete the job early. When completed, it was one of the most pleasant checks we ever wrote.
"We went to a press conference at a station in Harlem where they actually complimented us. Never, never, has that ever happened. I didn't know how to take compliments from all these elected officials. They had to admit they didn't believe in us, they didn't trust us. But eventually they were convinced that we were serious and being honest and sincere with them."
Reuter and Nagaraja worked with the community throughout the construction process. Every week community officials were advised of progress and problems.
"There were problems," says Reuter. "We had to remove one of the sub-contractors up there because he wasn't doing it quick enough. But the contractor complied and the project got done. It was truly one of the greatest accomplishments we ever did. That has helped us long term. Now we've done more projects like that where we have actually had to shut the system or a station down for awhile."
NYCT moved on to the Franklin Avenue shuttle where subway repairs were long overdue. Says Reuter, "It's one of the more racially sensitive areas in the city of New York. For years, the MTA and NYCT wanted to just close it down. It didn't make money. There was tremendous vandalism and fare evasion. NYCT wanted to just run buses."
Politically, closing down the subway was impossible. When the decision finally was made to maintain the system, Reuter explained to the parties that the system was in such disrepair that it would have to be rebuilt.
"From the community we heard the same things we heard in Harlem. 'You're never going to reopen. This is just a ruse. You're going to shut it down and never reopen.'
"We decided to do the same thing we did in Harlem. We got a contractor and put incentives in place for early completion. We closed it down, completed the job a month ahead of schedule and now it's one of the most beautiful pieces of subway line you will ever see."
New credibility in the community
There were problems, of course, with the reconstruction of the Franklin Avenue subway. One contractor was almost fired until he figured out that Reuter was serious about getting the job done right and on time. In the end, the contractor performed better than expected and actually thanked Reuter for setting him straight.
"At the time, he admitted he wasn't doing a good job. He said, 'I didn't realize how serious you guys were. I thought this was a regular government job.' I told him, we may be quasi-governmental, but we don't consider ourselves government here. We're an organization that believes in getting the job done. He totally turned around.
"We're not necessarily always full of good stories here. Once upon a time we had a reputation of never doing what we said. Now we're trying to create a reputation for always doing what we say we'll do.
"Now, we also tell people in the communities the truth. And the truth isn't always pretty. Sometimes we have to be pretty blunt with people and let them know what the facts are.
"I think people actually prefer that. They don't necessarily like it at the first meeting when the honesty doesn't always go the way they want to hear. But ultimately they respect it. Now, at more and more of these meetings, they just want to hear if we're really serious about doing this, is this a commitment, have we thought about this and that, will we talk to them every week along the way. We assure them we will.
"Because of the Lenox Avenue project, we were able to shut down Franklin Avenue, 181st Street, Park Street… I mean we're doing things that never could have been accomplished even as recently as the 1980s." Interestingly, the Lenox Avenue project was done in the Governor's election year. "I told my people, if this fails, there's no doubt that I'm gone. But it turned out to be one of our biggest success stories."
To assure on-time delivery of construction projects, Reuter and Nagaraja streamlined the old bureaucracy. They put a team together of players who could make decisions on the spot, including procurement people and lawyers. "When problems arose, we couldn't wait a week or two," says Reuter. "We had to make quick decisions. One contractor who has done a lot of work with us over the years commented that decisions came out of us faster than he ever experienced. We do more and more of that now, to make sure we really can deliver on these jobs."
Reuter and his team have done much to become more efficient throughout the organization. He gives most credit to the caliber of people who help manage.
"We've done a good job of hiring really good people and giving them the authority to get the job done. That's the key. When you run an organization this size, you can't just have your key staff, the 10 or 12 people who report to me, who are really competent. It has to be a lot of people. When we talk about 100 projects, those are just the big projects. We literally have thousands of projects going on at any one point in time. All those projects need to go well because even the little ones can become big issues here in the city."
It took years to transform NYCT into what it has become. At funding time, the question state and local legislators used to ask was how much could be cut. Now the discussion often shifts to what should be improved next.
Reuter says NYCT is now in the process of changing the face of technology at NYCT like never before.
Communications-based train controls
"In the 1980s, our whole job really was rebuilding the existing infrastructure. We restored all of the older cars, the older signal system, the power systems. Our mission was to get them where we could rely on them, not have them catch on fire, not have them break down on us everyday. And that was done.
"We're really reaping the benefits of what was accomplished in the 1980s. The system is running better now than it has ever run before.
"Now we are at the stage where we're really beginning to change the technology here. Even though we were rebuilding the signal system in the 1980s, the technology was still 50 years old. It was the old signal block technology. We went in and replaced the 70-year-old signals with signals that were brand new. But when you went out there and looked at them you saw green, yellow and red. It didn't look or operate any differently. The only difference was, it was new equipment, more reliable.
"Now we're making some major changes. We skipped a whole generation of signal technology. We literally changed from 19th century to 21st century. We are now putting in communication-based train controls. We're putting in a signal system that basically doesn't even need all those yellow, green and red lights anymore. The system will automatically drive the train.
"Our trains have always been driven by human beings. Operators start and stop them, give them power, control the train. We're now putting in a system, truly state of the art, that will allow computers to control the trains, glide the trains, speed the trains, stop the trains. We're still going to have people on the trains to be there for customer service activities and emergency situations, but we're now changing it to where we will have software and computers controlling our trains. This is a major change for a system like ours."
The new centralized control center currently under construction in Manhattan, at 54th Street, will open up at the end of this year. As the automatic train supervision (ATS) system comes on line, NYCT controllers for the first time will be provided real-time information about train location, speed and other key variables. Also for the first time, the many command centers will be consolidated into one location.
The current train system, which operates across 60 towers scattered around the city, depends on operator relays via radio. Tower operators see and control only one section of the subway system. Information is then relayed between towers and to the Rapid Transit Operations Center. The new system, when fully implemented, will centralize all those functions into one command center.
"To convert it from a fixed-box signal system to communications-based train controls (CBTC) for the entire system, we're going to see it done incrementally," says Reuter. "We have already awarded a contract for the L-line (Canarsie line: Manhattan to Brooklyn). We picked that line because it's an isolated line, we can put the technology in place and make sure we have all the issues resolved there. After that, then we'll begin to expand."
Reuter estimates it will take 30 or 40 years before the entire system can be fully installed. "Remember, we run 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. We only get to work certain hours, and we are only able to impact certain customers. That's the reason it's going to take so long, because we don't have the luxury of closing the system down in order to rebuild. I tell people, what we're doing here is remodeling your house while you're living in it. You don't even get to go to a hotel."
CBTC will be installed in sections along the city's 656 miles of track, which means some trains will be running on the new communications-based train control system while others continue to run on fixed block.
"Those are big challenges. Not to mention how we get our workforce trained and ready for this new technology. The maintenance guys are going to get rid of the hammers and bolts and screwdrivers and start going around with all these electronic meters. It's going to change the way we work.
"From the customer's perspective, it's going to be absolutely amazing. They're going to get real time information in the future. Signs at the stations will tell them when the next four or six trains will arrive. The new trains have automatic announcements on them that say: 'You are now at Grand Central Station. Next stop, 33rd Street.' Additionally, there will be electronic signs inside the cars that say the same thing.
"Those are truly monumental changes from a customer perspective. Our customers are a pretty sophisticated group of people for the most part. They travel all over the world and they see those types of systems in many other places. They say, 'Why not New York?'
"We're now to the point where we have enough of the system rebuilt where we can start to do those type of systems here in New York. You're going to see tremendous changes in the technology. Getting it all up and running is a major challenge."
Subway, then and now
Consolidating the control system is just the latest step in bringing together the diverse elements of New York City's subway. Although MTA New York City Transit manages all subway service (and most bus service) in the city today, at one time private companies managed most transit routes.
New York's first subway system opened in Manhattan on October 27, 1904. The Interborough Rapid Transit Company (IRT) operated a 9.1-mile long subway line which consisted of 28 stations from City Hall to 145th Street and Broadway. IRT service was extended to the Bronx in 1905, to Brooklyn in 1908 and to Queens in 1915.
The Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company (BRT) began subway service between Brooklyn and Manhattan in 1915. The Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Corporation (BMT) took over BRT operations a few years later.
In 1932, the city's Board of Transportation completed construction of the 8th Avenue line and created the Independent Rapid Transit Railroad (IND), the first city-run subway service. The city purchased the BMT and IRT in 1940 and became the sole operator of all New York City subway and elevated lines. NYCT also operates the Staten Island Rapid Transit, a single line running north to south on Staten Island, from Tottenville to St. George, as a separate entity.
With all these companies merging, soon it became apparent that each line had its own eccentricities. While track gauge is the same, tunnel clearances are different. Passenger cars that could run on one line could not necessarily operate on another.
"The IRTs are shorter, lengthwise, and narrower," says Reuter. "The BNDs are like a mid-size car, 60 feet, and wider. The INDs are longer cars. So you can't run INDs or BNT cars on the IRT. We can run IRT cars over the BNT track, but if we use the other cars, they have a tendency to hit tunnels because they're too wide and too long."
While many older cars are still in operation, NYCT now tries to standardize when purchasing new ones. As the subway infrastructure has been rebuilt, car breakdown has become less frequent. Says Reuter, "When I was here in the 1980s, the subway fleet was averaging just under 3,000 miles between failures. Last month we reported to the board that we're at an all time record of 135,000 miles between failures on the subway.
"Right now we have the largest order in history coming in, so we expect those numbers to go even higher. We started revenue testing with one of those primary car manufacturers (Kawasaki) that's about to deliver our new cars. The Bombardier cars should start revenue testing soon, too. We split the 1,080 order between the two manufacturers.
"We'll replace the oldest cars in the fleet. Those old cars are actually holding the numbers down at that 135,000 figure. So we'll see those numbers go up further."
The oldest cars account for 1,400 of the 6,000-car fleet. The older cars are used on the IRT - The Red Bird - and are 40 years old. The new replacement cars are far more superior technologically and include many new customer amenities. Reuter believes the new cars will be the most popular ever in New York City.
Subway crime down
One of the biggest issues for customers on the New York subway system used to be crime. Starting in the 1980s, according to Reuter, NYCT and NYPD initiated a concentrated program to deal with "quality of life" crimes. "The idea being, take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves. The fact of the matter is, it worked. And it still works today. Crime is 50 percent less than what it used to be on the system."
Quality of life crimes include petty acts such as fare evasion and graffiti. In the 1990s, New York City Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani merged the Transit Authority Police department into the New York City Police Department. At the same time, the bureau continued to focus its efforts on community policing and set about motivating the police department to deal with quality of life crimes, which continues to this day.
The police spend a great deal of their time trying to catch people evading fares. Says O'Leary, "In 1990, we had almost 19,000 felonies on the system, the highest number in the history of the subway system. This year, if we continue on the current pace, we'll have about 4,000."
The NYPD is very responsive to the needs of MTA NYCT. They have become an integral part of every decision-making process, including purchasing new subway cars. "They help us make sure the cars are done with the proper security measures in mind," says Reuter. "We are now putting intercoms on the cars. The railings at the doors were installed so a criminal can't reach in and rip a chain off someone's neck. The police are involved in station design, building design, car design, bus design. They offer their expertise and input in making our system better."
NYCT sent police representatives on a trip to Japan to make suggestions regarding the new subway cars. Says O'Leary, "The new cars have dedicated wheelchair spaces. So there are flip down seats. This police representative took one look at that and said, 'The kids will break that.' And the manufacturers said, 'No, you can't break that.' So he grabbed the handrail, stood on it, jumped on it and it broke.
"That was good, because they modified that seat before delivering 1,080 cars. The police also came up with the suggestion that we put the three large glass windows at the ends of the cars. Now people will literally be able to see through five cars. People couldn't do that before where there was one little window and a door, or it was obstructed by a cab. And the new cars are much brighter; the lighting is remarkable."
Before merging with NYPD, the transit force numbered 5,000, which made it the sixth largest police force in the country, by far the largest force dedicated to transit in the world. Now, as part of the 40,000-person NYPD, the transit bureau is able to allocate resources from all over the city, whenever and wherever they are needed.
The last word
When you run a organization this large, you never know everything that's going on. "And if you do know everything, not much is going on," says Reuter. "You don't want to stifle people. What you really want to do is give people the ability and responsibility to get the job done. Have the checks and balances and accountabilities. But turn them loose and let them go out and do their jobs and have fun.
"We have a bunch of very good people here and that's why the system is running as well as it's running. They really know their jobs well, and they're dedicated. I mean, they're not in it for the money. None of these people are going to get rich working here. And a lot of these people probably could retire from here at a pretty young age, get a pretty good pension and go to work for a consultant and make a lot more money. They don't do it. You know why? They like their jobs. It's a fun place to work."
Where else can you get to move 7 million people a day, and every night go home and feel satisfied that you helped keep the busiest city on earth working.
Has the author ever been to New York?
The section on rebuilding the Lennox Ave. line was interesting, but it seems to be pretty much a single-sourced article, based on the statements of Larry Reuter, which are very self-serving at times -- Dick Ratvich gets a mention, but David Gunn has become a non-person, and it was during his term that the anti-graffiti efforts finally started working.
But I guess some of the current employees of NYCT can fill in some of the gaps even better.
Has the author ever been to New York?
This weekend while taking the B to Coney Island, I noticed in the yard several sets of R40S trains with B roller curtains. The others were Q's. Is it possible that come monday those R40's will be on the B?
Slant R-40s are on the B just about every weekend, primarily on Saturdays.
David
The section on rebuilding the Lennox Ave. line was interesting, but it seems to be pretty much a single-sourced article, based on the statements of Larry Reuter, which are very self-serving at times -- Dick Ratvich gets a mention, but David Gunn has become a non-person, and it was during his term that the anti-graffiti efforts finally started working.
But I guess some of the current employees of NYCT can fill in some of the gaps even better.
Today was Members' Day at Seashore. I know it's a lot farther from NYC than Shoreline, but we had a wonderful day. Colorful trees, and a great assortment of trolleys, interurbans, and buses running. I even took a group out for lunch in town on our Fishbowl GMC bus #6169.
SubTalkers on property included Jeremy Whiteman, Tim Speer, Gerry O'Regan, and special guest The Transit Professional Formerly Known as Mr. R-46 (and his wife). TTPFKAMR46 did a stellar job operating our Boston Type-5 trolley #5821, and got to throw some hand switches -- something he doesn't do too often on-the-job in the NYC subway.
I took a trip to the Shoreline Trolley Museum today for Autumn in New York days. The had a lot of the New York cars out and running - The R-9, R-17, etc. There were several Subtalkers there including BMTman, Thurston, Lou from Brooklyn, heypaul, Dave Shanske, Larry,RedbirdR33, (1) South Ferry (9), Jeff H. and Stef, and probably some others whose names I didn't get.
The highlight of the trip for me was being able to climb aboard the Mineola, August Belmont's private car.
i always speak highly of you, Bob....and you forgot me I'm hurt. 8-)
it was good to see you again
Peace,
ANDEE
It was a fun day for myself and my friend Al also. Driving 6688 outbound to Short Beach was fun and Subwaysurf did a great job on the return. I'm psyched to go back on members day. I also got to see the Mineola (courtesy of Lou from Brooklyn). Thankfully it was rescued from a scrap heap but unfortunately like alot of the other equipment (as well as the equipment as Sea Shore) major bucks and major time is needed for a full restoration.
The weather was perfect and a large THANK YOU is in order for Lou, Lou, Multiple Dennis', Dave Shansky, Motorman Jeff, Thurston, JJ and everyone else who helped make this day possible. Also thanx for not allowing Doug (they call me MISTER Luciano) BMT man to re-enact the Malbone Street wreck with # 1227. I know why he wants to do it with all of us as passengers. THE MOTORMAN SURVIVED but 100 passengers (us) didn't. BTW the anniversay of that day is 24 days away.
Again to everyone at Branford a heartfelt thank you.
Hart Bus a/k/a Mr. 6688 MIT (motorman in traning)
Please forgive me, Andee!!!
Oink,
For what things are the buzzers in a train cab used? I know that one of those is for the operator to tell the conductor that there's a red signal and that the conductor should keep the doors open, and conversely that the light is now green, close the doors. What are others?
In cases where the train is not equiped with an intercom, the conductor can tell the train that he needs:
A road car inspector O O O
Police assistance - 0 - 0
Don't move the train -
Of course in the era of hand-held radios, the function of the buzzed is obsolete.
In addition to what others have said.
In the subway:
At the beginning of a run, the TO and CR exchange 2 long and 2 short buzzes.
In commuter rail:
Indicates the number of cars that are open (if more than 2, or else it gets confusing - I only see this on NJT and engine hauled trains).
Tell the LE okay to proceed (especially when leaving doors open).
During various brake proceedures before a run.
If one walks down the 45th Street Passage from the Biltmore Room in Grand Central, one gets to a blocked stairway where it turns westward, where did this lead?
At the end of the passage are two stairs, one is marked "Madison Avenue" To get to Madison Avenue from the top of those stairs one has to pass through the MTA Lobby (or use another building to Vanderbilt Avenue). Is that a public thoroughfare, or would I be prosecuted as an overzealous railfan if I used that path?
At the end of the passage are two stairs, one is marked "Madison Avenue" To get to Madison Avenue from the top of those stairs one has to pass through the MTA Lobby (or use another building to Vanderbilt Avenue). Is that a public thoroughfare, or would I be prosecuted as an overzealous railfan if I used that path?
I've seen many people use it, so it's presumably for public use.
Through the MTA Lobby, or through the building on Vanderbilt?
Through the MTA Lobby, or through the building on Vanderbilt?
The MTA building itself. IIRC, the entrance from GCT is located between the MTA building's front entrance and reception desk. You do not have to enter the non-public areas of the building in order to access GCT.
10/07/2000
That's what it said on the box I viewed today at the large Greenberg Train show at Hofstra University. The setup which was tagged at $85.00 had the trolley with curved and straight tracks (O guage) and power pack. Just the ticket for any youngster this holiday/
The trolley itself was a single trucker with clerestory roof. The paint scheme didn't reflect BQ&T, TARS or any other paint scheme we are familar with. Just a dark redish body with light grayish roof. But something is wierd about this O guage trolley car................Maybe it was the number....#6688 !!!
Does that number sound familiar to you guys at Branford ? Hmmmmm !
Bill "Newkirk"
According to the latest information, it would seem that the B train will be cut back to 8 car trains of 60-foot cars. What is interesting is that although the cars will be stored in Concourse Yard it's likely that they will not be maintained by Concourse Shop. It now appears that the cars will be inspected & maintained by Pitkin Maintenance Shop. Wayne, order extra erasers !!!
Wouldn't it make more sense to maintain the B 60-footers out of 207th and have the C train 60-foote cars maintained out of Pitkin? The C has access to both yards and the B gets a heck of a lot closer to 207th than it ever does to Pitkin.
Barn space, both in the number of available tracks and in the number of employees that can be supported, likely had a lot to do with the selection.
Is the Concourse shop totally unable to maintain any class of 60' cars? Wouldn't it make more sense to equip it to handle these cars, instead of shopping them all the way out in Brooklyn?
The question has many facets to it. Physically, Concourse shop could easily support the maintenance of 60 foot cars. This is true especially since the Concourse fleet may be reduced from 276 cars to 112. However, there are other factors to consider. Basing the cars at Pitkin allows for a lower spare factor since Pitkin already has 60 foot cars in its fleet. Also, Concourse shop maintains Westinghouse car. All 60 foot cars are GE and would mean expanding the Concourse storeroom to accommodate 2 fleets worth of parts. Finally, the introduction of GE cars at Concourse Shop would require some very intense training since most Concourse Car Inspectors are more junior employees and have not been exposed to GE propulsion.
Is it related with the closure of the north side of Manhattan Bridge? If so, it does really make sense because of the shortened B line.
My guess is that Coney Island R32s will move to Piktin Yard for B trains. Some Concourse R68s will move to Coney Island Yard for N, Q, W, and potentially G trains.
Chaohwa
It is due to the bridge and the 63rd St. connection. As for the movement of cars, Concourse R-68s will move to Coney Island. Coney Island R-32s (phase II) will move to Jamaica and Jamaica R-32s (Phase I)will move to Pitkin.
I hope that 3730 (and mate) will not be moved there! When the A got increased service during the Willy-B rehab they moved away, and that was hard enough on me (though seeing my car in the Rockaways brightened my day).
This will leave Jamaica's R-32s still assigned exclusively to the E?
Under all 4 options the E retains the R-32s. However, there are other factions that are leaning towards moving R-46s to the E Line.
Sinage is a big consideration now. The luminator side signs need to be updated with new terminals. In addition new roll signs will be ordered or decals ordered to modify existing signs.
No, the luminators already have V with all Queens terminals, (irrespective of whether it or the F are 63rd or 53rd), and V is on all the rollsigns.
I thought Concourse would get R-40m's and some 42's (especially if only 112 cars are required). But I guess if they base it in Pitkin, they might want the 32's for the sake of uniformity. Then I guess the 40m's go back to Coney Island, which will be devoid of all R-32's. They will then be entirely IND cars, and the R-40's entirely BMT, swapping their original divisions. (and next year the two divisions become largely separate again like pre-1967 days)
Perhaps they should switch them next year.
Once again, all of this is tentative, but I hope all of this gives follo the idea of next year's assignment he's been asking so much for.
The Luminator signs may already have the 'V' (I have not checked the master list) but they do not have the W nor do they have the Q (Broadway) terminal.
Yes they do. The NY Division ERA Bulletin has printed the full list of codes (and I think FDNY once posted some of them, without the codes), and they have all sorts of combinations; they tried to include every possible routing of the lines:
•the V to Queens, or to uptown; to Coney Island via the Culver or Brighton (and also to Church, and of course to 2nd Av.).
•The W to Astoria, Queensboro Plaza, Queens Blvd, 57th St., and to any Southern Div route and terminal in Brooklyn.
•There's also the A via the Brighton;
•H and K with various 6th and 8th Av. destinations (including uptown and 21st St. Queensbridge),
•all of the southern div. routes can be swapped around, and they all can go to Chambers or Essex on the Nassau line,
•the T (West End) with 6th Av, Bway or Nassau destinations,
•and even an X to 21st St. and WTC!
Hey, if new roll signs or decals are going to be ordered, maybe this time they can get them with yellow P's or T's on them with routes so we don't have to have two Q trains. When they get new signs or decals hopefully they'll begin modifying the cars as soon as they get them.
what are the 4 plans?
I've read the prior responses but for the life of me, this makes NO sense. To have a fleet maintained by a yard that isn't even close to the line is ludicrous. My questions:
1)In your estimation, how many T/O jobs would have to be created to transfer B/O cars to Pitkin and good cars back? (I'm not sure if you can answer this one as you are not RTO)
2)How many extra R32 cars(if any) would stay at CCYD in the event that B/O cars are unable(for any reason) to make it to PIT?
3)Would CCYD RCI's repair defects such as broken glass, etc. on B line R32's? I know that CIYD RCI's absolutely REFUSE to fix M line R42 defects. They say that's ENYD's work. I should know as I've been caught in the middle of this a few times. So would they say that it is PIT's work?
These are only a few that come to mind. To not have a direct yard link to a line could be asking for trouble if a Y/D has to run B/O cars or has to take away cars from the D just to make B service.
Question 3 is the only one I can answer with certainty. More B trains lay up in CCYD than D trains. The B trains and the D trains all belong to the same CMO & ACMO. If one of my bosses trains need repairs or cleaning it will be repaired or cleaned. End of story.
Must you all keep abbreviating? What do all those abbreviations mean, anyway? (RTO? B/O? RCI? Y/D? CMO? ACMO?)
- Lyle Goldman
RTO aka DOS= Rapid Transit Operations.
B/O= Bad order(i.e. B/O car, door, etc.). Also designates the Bus Operator title.
RCI= Road Car Inspector.
Y/D= Yard Dispatcher.
CMO= Chief Mechanical Officer(head CED honcho).
ACMO= Assistant CMO.
CED aka DCE= Car Equipment Division.
In transit, if it can't be abbreviated with 3 or 4 letters, it doesn't exist.
You should see all the abbreviations we use at my company.
The Straphangers Campaign just revamped their website. See the NY1 story here: New Website Warns Subway and Bus Commuters of Delays.
Straphangers Network
OCTOBER 04TH, 2000
Straphangers Network Website
Transit information from the NYPIRG Straphangers organization.
www.straphangers.org
Is it just me or are the Straphangers pure evil. From the feel I got from their website I think they should rename some of their subsections:
Why transit workers are lazy bums.
How to be a jerk.
Yelling loudly will make things improve.
Subways should be free.
Why things are not your fault.
Uninformed Opinion Generator *new*.
Its just you.
In the view of the Straphangers Campaign, the TA and its' employees can do nothing right. They inspect the cleanliness of cars at the point of a run where they have a greater chance of being dirty because the slobs (oops, customers) made them dirty with their spilt liquids, discarded baby diapers, discarded chicken bones, discarded newspapers and the like all over the floor, and they say the TA isn't keeping the cars clean and has lax supervision. They complain of poor on time performance but have nothing to say about door holding by "customers". And believe me, at some stations somebody is always coming down those stairs and the conductor HAS to close the doors and SOMEBODY will invariably hold them. I have absolutely no use for them.
As I noted on BusTalk, this self-appointed "advocacy group" makes money ONLY as long as it has something to "advocate." As soon as NYC's subway and bus systems run like the Swiss railroads, it'll have no reason to exist.
That's why Straphangers so vigorously opposed the MTA's first Capital Program in the 1980's, and that's why its people still sabotage service to this day. [Ever notice how the numbers of BIE's and "sick passengers" INCREASE within the four to five weeks before Straphangers issues a blistering report about on-time performance, and then SUBSIDE immediately after?]
Bill from Maspeth is right - I have no use for them, either.
I wonder just how large an organization the Straphangers really is. You never seem to hear of anyone quoted by name except its leader, Gene Russianoff (who formerly was called the group's "Staff Attorney," a rather odd title for a nonprofit to have). My suspicion - and yes, I could be wrong - is that Gene Russianoff basically is the Straphangers Campaign.
No it isn't just you. The Straphengers campaign is run by PIRG, who are all a bunch of pinko, Naderites. Don't even get me started on their views.
Nor I. They actually do a diservice to riders by telling them they deserve more for their fare when it's a proven fact that a significant percentage of the cost to provide a single straphanger their ride is NOT covered by their $1.50 fare.
Things I have learned:
The Straphangers Campaign doesn't represent anyone other than the Straphangers Campaign.
-and-
Straphanger is a stupid word.
Mark
You've been gone more than a week!
You're stabilizing influence has been missed!
Welcome Back!
Thanks! It's good to be back.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1. Are the B-IVs getting truck replacements? More and more I've been riding B-IVs upon which the air conditioner is louder than the noise that the train makes when it is moving at 60 MPH. Also, their loudest noise when moving is a high pitched "whine."
2. Are the wayside signals on the Frankford el actually being removed now, or will they not be removed until the entire ATO is inserted, Frankford to 69th.
3. Why aren't they closing the el from 40th to 5th?
I understand that the trucks on the B-IV's are being rebuilt with new air suspension components and rubber components, simialr to the PATCO fleet. As far as the wayside signals on The Market-Frankord Line, they will still reain until the Market Street end gets ATO. The good news (at least temporarily) is that on the weekends, the Frankford portion is once again the domain of the Almond Joys (even though they are on maintenance-of-way assgnments.
I understand that the trucks on the B-IV's are being rebuilt with new air suspension components and rubber components, simialr to the PATCO fleet.
Long live the Poineer III truck!
I thought the entire fleet consisted of just M-4's. Are you saying they are bringing back the M-3's? I thought SEPTA wanted to keep the image up by saying this is the "new-el"!
Chuck Greene
They're using the Almond Joys for work service. I did not say that they were picking up passengers.
Thanks! My misconceptions are now corrected. I do remember them saying they would use some units for "work trains",
Thanks again!
Chuck Greene
I was riding the "F" train last week to Coney Island and when I passed the Coney Island yard I noticed that on R-4 #491 half of one side of the car had been painted green. I wonder when the restoration job will be completed.
BMTJeff
Oh no. Even though no R1-R9 car had that unusual white body/blue door paint scheme, I loved it and hoped it would've been maintained.
Anyone who is an ole timer will probably remember the BMT "D" types a.k.a. "Triplex" and the "Multi-section" cars. Since the TA is putting together cars in multiple car sets they might as well have articulated cars. I hope they consider this option for future orders since I think that articulated cars that are divided into multiple section are better than individual cars arranged into 4 or 5 car sets.
BMTJeff
Anyone who is an old timer will probably remember the BMT "D" types a.k.a. "Triplex" and the "Multi-section" cars. Since the TA is putting together cars in multiple car sets they might as well have articulated cars. I hope they consider this option for future orders since I think that articulated cars that are divided into multiple section are better than individual cars arranged into 4 or 5 car sets.
BMTJeff
I've got Greller's book "Subway cars of the BMT". It gives good information and nice pictures of the Triplex, Green Hornet, Zephyr, Bluebird and Multi-section cars. I agree with you that if the TA is going to put cars in four- and five-car sets, they really should use articulated cars. Articulated cars are used in Hamburg, Germany and Stockholm, Sweeden. They should use them here.
They also run articulated trains in Paris on the #1, #7bis, and #14 lines(Metro-RATP). There they call it an intercirculated train.
But what makes it interesting is that they take a regular 7 car train on the #1 line (MP89 equipment) and they took out all the ends turning it into one great big train! Needless to say that the first time that I saw this, I was flabbergasted to say the least!
I agree completely. Articulation has tremendous benefits, with lower maintenance costs, higher speeds around curves, and lower weight, important on some of the older els on the BMT eastern division. I wish the R143 was articulated ...
Too bad the TA is so blind that it won't even bother testing articulated cars. The BMT was ahead of its time. Too bad the TA isn't.
The Triplexes were an exception to the reduced weight concept. Those gentle behemoths weighed in at 105 tons, on the average. Nontheless, they were built to last. Their premature slaughter was one of the two all-time biggest blunders the TA ever made (I think you know the other blunder).
10/09/2000
[Their premature slaughter was one of the two all-time biggest blunders the TA ever made (I think you know the other blunder).]
The R-44 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Not quite. I'd vote for the spending of billions to partially replace a perfectly good el in Jamaica.
How about them destroying the 3rd ave el without replacing it with a subway.
Well the 3rd. Ave. el had to come down in the mid 1950's, since it was so obsolete and rickety. Not so with the el on Jamaica Ave.
Ding! Ding! Ding! You got it.
The R-44 deserves an honorable mention, though.
I would also suggest that the Chicago Transit Authority look into this option for future orders. Since the retirement of the 1-50 series several years ago, every line on the system has operated with married two-car pairs. If there are no plans to revert to single-car operation (and I can't imagine that there are), it would seem that two-car articulated units could achieve some saving of weight and, presumably, cost.
I have a soft spot for the CRT/CTA 5000 (later 51-54) series three-unit articulateds, rapid transit's closest approximation of an Electroliner.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
The CTA used the single unit cars (1-50, and the 5000 series artics) for one-person train operation. Up until recently (within last 10 years), two car trains couldn't be used for OPTO for two reasons:
1. Union contracts required a conductor on trains with more than one car. (The 5000 series articulated cars were considered a single car, so they could be operated without a conductor, and were operated that way on the Skokie Swift for many years.)
2. On-board fare collection required a conductor except on the 1-50 singles which were set up with a door by the cab and a farebox in the cab.
Within the past decade, the union restrictions have been overcome, and on board fare collection is no longer used on the CTA. Thus, there is not the need for the "single-unit" cars for OPTO.
-- Ed Sachs
As you know ol' friend, I am an enthusiastic fan of the old Triplex cars. They are a page from the childhood memories and I love to see them again when I look up some of the old cars on another site on this web. I've often thought of trying to purchase one, put in my back yard and make a romper room of it. Then I could enjoy it all the time. However, none are for sale, I don't have the room, and I'm not that rich. Ah well.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I wonder what you would think if the TA revived the bright idea of the BMT by using articulated subway cars once again. I'm sure that you would be ecstatic.
BMTJeff
I'd like to see the MTA go back to articulated cars when it's time for the R-44s to retire. Replacing two 75-foot cars with a three-section 150-foot articulated unit (at 50-feet per section, the same length as standard IRT cars) would allow an additional four doors per side on a 600-foot car (36 doors at nine doors per articulated unit, instead of the 8x4=32 under the current set-up), which would shorten loading/unloading times, and more importantly, they could be used on the entire system, either as four articulated units on the IND and BMT Southern Division or as three units (450 feet) on the BMT Eastern Division.
And yet it looks as if the MTA has no plans to use articulated subway cars. That's backwards New York thinking for you.
They may change their thinking 10 to 15 years from now, as the 75-footers get older and less reliable but because of their length, the MTA has no way to shunt them off to the lesser-used lines on the Eastern Division, as was done with the R-7/9s, R-16s, R-42s....
J Lee:
I think you have a great idea with a modern version of the old BMT triplexs. I don't know whether the TA will have the same thinking as you have but I think like you that articulated subway cars are better than individual subway cars.
BMTJeff
Hey Fred,
While not as big a Sea Beach fan as you, (after all, the 2 most frequented lines in my childhood were the West End and the Brighton)I am an avid BMT fan with a real slant (no pun intended) to the Southern Division.
And what could be better for great memories than the ABs and D-types holding down ALL Southern service prior to the arrival of the R27/30, when I was just a toddler in the late 50s?
Oh, alright, I do admit a fondness too for the IND R1/9s, since they did cover all service into Stillwell on the Culver during the time mentioned.
BTW, an articulated car would be just perfect for all BMT/IND service; no longer would different length cars be required for the Eastern and Southern Divisions.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Hot Lunch: I like your attitude. Keep on pitching, and don't forget to ride my Sea Beach every chance you get.
If I ignore the munchkins, they will go away. You know what? I'm making use of the killfile. While I'm trying to keep quiet some still keep talking. Incredible! If I can't be nice, what's the point of me being here? One of these days I may hang it up.
One of these days, Dave is gonna shut this down and a number of you will have no one to blame but yourselves.
-Stef
I'm going to first generalize this question to the limit. Let us say on a subtalk field trip with a large group of 25-50 SubTalkers in attendence a main stream reporter see us acting strangly, walks up and asks "Who are you, what are you and what is your opinion on transit question X." Now our exaulted leader Dave had his camera stolen by a rat and is trying to chase it down before it is fenced so he can't give us guidance or officialy invoke the name of nycsubway.org. Should we say SubTalk, or nycsubway.org or railfan group? Should we disavow all group affiliation and talk to the reporter as indivuduals? Are we a message board or a transit discussion group? Should we all try to form a consensus and give a single group answer to the question or should we bombard the reporter with a million answers? As pointless as this thread seems on my one SubTalk field trip we always sort ran into difficulty when people asked who we were. It would not be unreasonable to believe that at some point some group of SubTalkers are going to be put in a place where some sort of spotlight can be put on this site and it is good to know how we should respond. I know that Dave et al has always felt that SubTalk shouldn't be "partisan" and have positions. It would be a shame to have someone accidently put this site in a bad light.
On a lighter note one method could be after the question was asked we go into a live action version of the MB with people voicing new threads and others replying. Then we realize that the sun has gone down and the news crew left 3 hours ago. This way the entire group gets a say and we avoid any publicity what-so-ever.
>>>As pointless as this thread seems on my one SubTalk field trip we always sort ran into difficulty when people asked who we were<<<
I have dealt with this question many times while being an tours.
I always tell them were just a bunch of nuts.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> Should we disavow all group affiliation and talk to the reporter as indivuduals? Are we a message board or a transit discussion group? Should we all try to form a consensus and give a single group answer to the question <<<
Subtalk is not a "group" in any organizational meaning. One of the most important attributes of any unincorporated group is that each of the members may be held liable for actions of the group. Therefore if on a Subtalk field trip one of the "members" took a flash photo in a subway station which momentarily startled a passenger who then fell on the tracks, all members could be held liable.
A while back, someone (was it you Mike?) suggested that an organization be formed based on Subtalk for promoting rapid transit. Dave Pirmann wanted nothing to do with it and it quickly died.
Subtalk is clearly not an organization. Each of us is an individual with his/her opinions. There is no official "group answer" to any given question. I think Dave Pirmann and most of us want to keep it that way.
Tom
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer or an expert on law.
You stated that all "members" (attendees?) on a SubTalk field trip could be liable for the actions of one "member". I don't see how that could be true, since there is nor formal SubTalk organization. Organized railfan groups that run fantrips usually must purchase liability insurance for the event.
>>> You stated that all "members" (attendees?) on a SubTalk field trip could be liable for the actions of one "member" <<<
George;
Sorry if my post was not clear. That would be true if Subtalk were an organized group, which it is not. And the reason organized Railfan groups buy liability insurance for events is because each of the members would be liable for negligence by anyone in the group.
Tom
As a cop for almost 19 years I have my stock answer anytime a reporter asks me anything:"I'm sorry, but I hate the press"
Let us say on a subtalk field trip with a large group of 25-50 SubTalkers in attendence a main stream reporter see us acting strangly, walks up and asks "Who are you, what are you and what is your opinion on transit question X." Now our exaulted leader Dave had his camera stolen by a rat and is trying to chase it down before it is fenced so he can't give us guidance or officialy invoke the name of nycsubway.org. Should we say SubTalk, or nycsubway.org or railfan group?
We could say that we are a group of patients from the low-functioning ward at Pilgrim State Hospital, out on a day pass.
SubTalk is not a club! It is a place where people from all walks of life who like transit can post their views.
The simplest answer is
We 1) are transit fans
2) are subway fans
3) are railfans
4) like trains
Pick the one that you like the best!
Almost two years of posting here and I come up with that lousy spacing in tht last post. I'm sorry everybody!
Karl, for better spacing you can use the html code <ol> and <li>. Your post can then look like:
SubTalk is not a club! It is a place where people from all walks of life who like transit can post their views.
The simplest answer is we:
are transit fans
are subway fans
are railfans
like trains
Pick the one that you like the best!
Sarge, Your message using html is almost exactly what I was trying to do without it. I experimented with it many months ago, would always make a mistake somewhere, and have a total mess on my hands. I was typing out all tags manually. Since my internet time is so limited I decided to forego it completely.
I'm sure everyone appreciated it!
Good Grief, it worked!
Well, I would immediately point the reporter in the direction of the always astute heypaul who would give them the answer that they would NOT be looking for.
Otherwise, SUBWAYSURF could pose as our "SubTalk spokesman" and explain to the reporter that the group is a monthly outing of Creedmore patients. And at that moment I slowly move away from the group and disappearance up the nearest exit.
BMTman
Then there's always a Gumby-style (Monty Python) response.:-)
You may be on to something - if we tax people who stand in water, the proceeds can be used to pay for transit!
Mark
Yes, and now for something completely different....
:-)
It's....
SubTalk was concieved, preformed and written by...
David Pirmann - Web Site Host
Jersey Mike
heypual
Train Dude
chuchubob
#4 Sea Beach Fred
Pork: The Other White Meat
Bill Newkirk
buddtrainzrule
Its That Flxible Metro
( 1 ) South Ferry ( 9 )
Bill from Maspeth
Pelham Bay Dave
Hank Eisenstein
Jeffrey Rosen
John J Blair
R142 #2
Peter Rosa
Larry,RedbirdR33
BMTman
Karl B
Anon_e_mouse
Steve Hoskins
Chao-Hwa Chen
Steve B-8AVEXP
los angeles rail system (salaamallah)
Spunky of Light Rail Fame
Henry R32 #3730
SubwayRider
subway-buff@mindspring.com
zman179
Animations
David Cole
Web Hosting
David Pirmann - Web Site Host
Producer
David Pirmann - Web Site Host
Director
Normal Distribution
THE
END
LOL!!
And a few others:
Wayne Mr. Slant R-40
#1 Brighton Exp. Bob
Todd Glickman
William A. Padron Mr. R-10
As a matter of fact, they all say that, too, in one of the shows. The one in which every skit begins with, "The BBC would like to apologize for the following announcement."
Here are a few things I noticed during the day:
Misinformed crews:
Some 5 trains had "South Ferry" as the southern destination.
One C/R was told to run light from Chambers to Bowling Green. Revolting passengers and a few track workers set him straight, after which he had a bad attitude with PA announcements from then on.
One T/O and C/R pair thought they had to stop at Rector, Cortland, and South Ferry. When the doors opened at SF the dispatcher screamed into the station PA "#5 Close it down!!!"
Misinformed passengers:
A woman going to Atlantic Ave got off the 5 at Grand Central uptown.
People were waiting at Chambers st. Downtown express platform until a work train backed in, and even then let a few 5s go by until a second work train came and flatcars 0F223 and 0F182 were coupled.
Various other neat things:
Possible to ride the East and West side IRTs from one train.
The MTA has succeeded in creating a one-seat ride from Penn Station to Grand Central.
The R-142(A) were pulled from service about a week ago. Coincidence, I think not! Think of the transfer announcements: "...for the downtown 2, 4, uptown 5, N, and R trains."
Too bad the r-142 is not in service
I would've loved to have heard the computerized announcements develop a bad attitude. Or how it would've reacted to "#5 CLOSE IT DOWN" 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
What lines currently have the new r-142 trains
As of now, the cars are being tested on the 2 and 6 lines.
3TM
There not running as of now.
As of Sat 10-7-00 5:00pm, the IRT headhouse is in a lot, mounted up at Pacific St and Flatbush Aves. It is not far from the Atlantic Ave. station. It is in front of the Downtown Bklyn bound B41 and B67 bus stop.
3Train#2098Mike
Let's hope it does not go the way of the Borgadus Building.
What is that?
The Borgadus Building was a landmarked cast iron building. A developer promised to remove it and reassemble it at another location, if the City would permit him to put another building on the site. The building's cast iron panels were disassembled and stored in a parking lot near the construction.
Drug addicts allegedly stole the panels and sold them to scrap dealers. The astonished chair of the City Landmarks Commission was quoted in the NY Times as saying: "They've stolen my building!..."
Where was this and when was it?
During the 1990's I remember seeing a disassembled cast iron building stored in a lot under the Brooklyn side of the Manhattan bridge, along Plymouth Street.
Hey Mike, this past Thursday I walked from Downtown Brooklyn to the Library at Grand Army Plaza. On my way up Flatbush, I passed Atlantic Avenue where I saw the now vacant triangle @ Atlantic, Flatbush and 4th Avenues. As was previously reported, the historic IRT kiosk is now in a NYCT lot (usually reserved for maintenance vehicles) on a triangled block almost across from it's original location.
The condition of the headhouse/kiosk is bizarre: it appears that the bottom 4 or 5 feet of the structure is actually MISSING (or dismantled and moved elsewhere). Only the top 6 or 7 feet is in the lot and resting on steel support beams (that were probably used in the delicate move). It has yet to be rested, and it isn't possible to tell if the restoration will be done on that site, or at some other location.
BMTman
I would like to know on why NYCT Operations Planning is changing letters to it's Southern Brooklyn subway lines in 2001 when flip-flop sides accur on the Manhattan Bridge, For instance:
B train is now the W train.
D locals in Brooklyn is now another branch of the Q train.
In addition, what will the car assignment for both of the lines be & will there be rush hour & midday express service along the Astoria line as well.
This is to avoid confusion between two trains in two separate unconnected segments/sections with the same letter.
There is a difference between a weekend and a year or so(try more than that!)
Because they don't want to have a route from 205 St./Bronx to 34/6 via all IND and route from Stillwell/Brighton via the Broadway BMT with both having the same letter designation (D) I think the TA has to do better than having a Q Brighton Exp. to Brighton Beach and a Q Brighton Local to Stillwell tho. This will cause passenger confusion. And the public doesn't know or care about diamond, round, orange or yellow Q's! Same reasoning behind the B.......As for car asssignments, you have been told countless times that this is pending as well as the exact scope of the service plan.
Because they don't want to have a route from 205 St./Bronx to 34/6 via all IND and route from Stillwell/Brighton via the Broadway BMT with both having the same letter designation (D)
Why not call one route the Concourse Exp and the other the Brighton Express. It seems to have worked before 1967. Has the public become more confused or has management?
If a customer is entering the system at 34 St. he/she may not know which platform (6th Ave. or B'way BMT) to get the correct D train. Even knowing uptown or downtown may not help. Don't forget, we are not dealing with knowledgeable SubTalkers who know their way around the system! We're dealing with people who are confused very easily. Even if their train comes in on the local instead of an express track (or vice versa) creates mass confusion.
I would rather the same letters for each half, except yellow and orange (like they did in the 80s). They're already on the rollsigns!
The yellow B's and D's are not on the R-68's (which debuted during the last flip-flop, using the orange D). Since the colors are not apart of speech, I think it's better to have different letters, so when you speak of "the B" or "the D" it is clear you are referring to one line. Having them split like that only makes the system look more disarrayed. (Remember last time, the closure was not supposed to last so long). And suppose the bridge is lost completely during this time, or the work drags on way past the schedule like the other side?
Are you sure? Look at these:
Pic 1
Pic 2
That's the 68A. They're on those except the first 8. It's the R-68 that I said doesn't have them (except for somre replacement signs). If they replace them, they might as well get signs with "T" and "U" and use those.
what happened to the R142's? did another malfunction happen?
why are they not running as we speak?
I thought the testing was complete!!
Can someone tell me what's goin on with the R142's?
my understanding was the kawasaki cars were going into the 207th street shops for some door and brake modifications and would then undergo another 15 day acceptance testing...
my secret belief is that they will be transformed into r-62a's, and immediately operate for at least 45 years of reliable trouble free service...
One can never be too sure what goes on
behind closed garage doors... nor can
one be too certain fellow folks know how
to use the "archive" posts option..
or tune in more often than never..
Either way you look at it, some of us
(self included) never even noticed the
142's were...::gulp::... missing!
...and it's all good.
One can never be too sure what goes on
behind closed garage doors... nor can
one be too certain fellow folks know how
to use the "archive" posts option..
or tune in more often than never..
Either way you look at it, some of us
(self included) never even noticed the
142's were...::gulp::... missing!
..not like there's anything wrong with that!
Well, yeah, but you've never liked the new trains, have you?
- Lyle Goldman
I know that I hate da suckers.
I prefer the R-142(a)s to all redbirds, the only ones I'll miss are 7773, 7821, and that other one with the R22 storm door, and possibly the R36s and 33 singles (blinking lights, and fans for the latter).
When the M-7s come in, expect me to bitch and moan about them just like you are with the 142s, only because they're replacing my ACMUs.
By you, I mean 1 SF 9.
what happened to bombarier's delivery. was it cancelled or something? are they sitting up at 241? whats the deal with that? all i'm seein' is kawasaki(5 sets)
Well last night, on the way home from a dissapointing Yankee game, I saw cars #'s 7211-7215 running non revenue service s/b at 149 st-Grand Concourse.(Probably testing).
There all piled up at east 180th in the bronx!
Are they in the barn? I went up there Sunday and the barn was closed down. All I saw was Redbirds lined up outside.....
3TM
my totally unreliable and unstable sources tell me that the new cars will only operate during the major holidays... they are now being readied for halloween, then thanksgiving, then christmas, chanukah, and kwanza, then heypaul day in january, valentines day,etc... in between holidays, they will systematically rebuild each major system of the cars... currently they are replacing the high pressure air lines which were made of plaster of paris with more sturdy cast iron...
"then heypaul day in january,"
What's this all about?
my birthday... same day as former president nixon...
[my birthday... same day as former president nixon...]
heypaul, I always suspected you were a little on the shady side... :-)
BMTman
If if heypaul's cab could take you into the board room of any majour transit company in the 1920's what advice would you give the owners of the subway or railroad companies so that they could have stayed profitable and/or so that service today would be better. It if given that they would believe you and follow your advice.
In New York, it might have helped to hire the mob to put out a contract on Robert Moses. Seriously, once the appeal and affordablity of automobiles was sold to the masses, transit as a private enterprise was doomed. Add to that government spending on paved highways. The development of the PCC car during the depression and World War II rationing only delayed the inevitable.
Without Robert Moses, it still would have happened.
Robert Moses only built what was believed to be best for the people.
Well I for one thank G-d for Robert Moses every day when I drive to work on the scenic treed curvy parkways instead of the ugly truck infested LIE. I only wish modern day bureaucrats kept Moses' feelings on the parkways alive by not allowing school buses or ANY truck including SUV's, pickups, or windowless vans!!!
>>> what advice would you give the owners of the subway or railroad companies <<<
Cut all but essential maintenance. Use money saved to invest in General Motors stock. Try to sell the subway to the government at a good price before they catch on that it will never be able to continue making a profit.
Tom
Is there anything special planned like a special train running on the S or any other lines for Oct 27?
--Clayton Parker--
Probably not. IRT Contract One opened for business in 1904, not 1900. Wait another four years for the centenary festivities.
Then again, when was the groundbreaking?
I think it was March or May of this year.
I think it was March or May of this year.
I mean the Centennial.
Oct. 27, 2004 falls on Wednesday. One way or another, whether there are any festivities or not, I'm going to be on hand.
In your opinions, what is the fastest way from, say, Grand Central, to Broadway Junction.
That wouldn't be a matter of opinion. It would be a matter of running time and waiting time. The MTA website has timetables for the various lines, including those that pass through Grand Central and Broadway Junction/East New York/Eastern Parkway. Also, one could call NYCT Travel Information at 718-330-1234 and have a representative put the itinerary through the computer and get an answer.
David
That wouldn't be a matter of opinion. It would be a matter of running time and waiting time. The MTA website has timetables for the various lines, including those that pass through Grand Central and Broadway Junction/East New York/Eastern Parkway.
I dare you to use the published schedules. The possible choices are:
4,5,6 --> L; 4,5,6-->J or 4,5-->A,C.
The 4,5 and 6 schedules show published times for Grand Central but NOT for Union Square or Fulton St. How is somebody supposed to evaluate the options for changing to the "L" at Union Sq or the A or C at Fulton St?
The "A" schedules show in 2 separate bochures show the departure times form Bway-Nassau and the arrival times at Bway-ENY. The "C" schedule shows neither Bway-Nassau nor Bway-ENY.
The "J" schedules show the times for both Chambers and Eastern Pkwy.
The "L" schedules show the times for both Union Sq and Bway-Jct.
The only routing for which travel time can be documented is 4,5,6-->J because it is the only route that states the 4 relevant stations: Grand Central, both transfer stations and the arrival station.
It would be nice, if the published schedules contained a table of running times between all stations on the route as required by state law. Until NYCT distributes sufficiently detailed schedules, estimating the least time consuming route between these two stations remains a matter of opinion. And inasmuch as the dispatchers have been shown to routinely falsify arrival times.....
The running time tables were used until 1997.
Why'd they get rid of them? I still have a few for the F, R, and E.
Probably the 4/5 to the L. That seems to be the most direct way. Second would be the A (express in Brooklyn), but with the L, you start heading east much sooner than going downtown. The J at Fulton would definitely be the slowest, because you have to go too far downtown to get it, and then actually backtrack to Delancey St. Plus, the bridge trip is slower than the tunnels.
Lexington Av South from Grand Central to 36th Street. E/B on 36th onto the Queens Midtown Tunnel then E/B on the LIE to the Grand Central Parkway. S/B on the GCP to the Interbo Jackie Robinson Pkway, W/b on the JRP to exit 1-Bushwick Av. Take Bushwick to Conway St, left on Conway to Broadway, left on Bway to the station at Van Sinderin.
With your lights flashing and siren wailing.
IRT Lexington Av Exp to Atlantic Av. LIRR from Atlantic 2 stops to East NY. Short 2 block walk to Bway Junction. (Or "L" train one stop from Atlantic to Bway Junction)
The fastest way would be the 4,5 to the L at Union Sq.
4,5 running time from 42 to 14---> 3 mins.
L running time from Union Sq. to Bway Jct.---> 22 mins.
Going to Fulton St. to transfer to the A would increase running time by 5 minutes.
I notice that there is a copy of this book on Ebay currently, and with a day to go in the auction, the bid is already up to $100.00.
The description indicates that the book was only published three years ago and is already out-of-print.
The book was recommended to me more than a year ago by several posters here, and I have been watching for it since with no luck till I saw this listing.
Is this three-year-old book that wonderful that it should command a bid that high? Older out-of-print subway books don't seem to bring prices like that!
Save your money! The book is really a re-hash of previously published information. In fact, the author lifts verse verbatum from Ed Davis' "They Moved the Millions" without so much as a hint of credit! Some nice line drawings (from the TA's Mechanical Department charts) but the photos, which were digitally manipulated to fit the available space between the printed text are, in some cases, horribly distorted (ever see an 80' long R-29?). This is an "official" book with the TA's imprimatur on it, so I suppose it is "collectible" from that point of view, but as a serious reference work it falls a bit short.
Thanks so much for the response! At the current bid price it went out of my reach way back anyway.
An 80' long R-29, that must look terrible!
A friend sent me a photocopy of one of those line drawings, and that is what fascinated me about the book in the first place. He lives several hundred miles away so I have never seen the actual book.
I'll not feel bad about not being able to bid on it!
There has been much written the past two weeks about those of us who live outside the state of New York, and a few have questioned whether we should give imput on things that are strictly for New York. But it was impression that many of us on Subtalk are former New Yorkers who fell in love with the New York Subway as kids, or grew to love it as visitors to the city. Has Dave or any of the people on this website ever taken a poll as to the percentage of us who are New Yorkers and those who aren't? I'll bet there are a lot of us who aren't. Might be worth a survey by some group on this site. BTW, the Mets just beat the Giants 4-0. One series down and two to go.
i do agree with the poster the 90s are over!! ( braves sign )!!!!
I do not miss that awful tomahalk choop good riddance!! maybe it will be the battle of oakland vs the mets?? or yankees ?? the cards arte not pushovers either!! maybe the #4 & the #7 trains will see world series duty !!final farewell to the redbirds & a subway series !!
i am a temporary resident if cali my home is nyc !!
I've never lived in New York City, contrary to what a lot of people think. It was in 1967-68, right after we moved to New Jersey, that I became immersed in the subway system. The love affair is still going strong.
Howdy! I moved from NYC 24 years ago after living there for 17 years, but my Subway experiences are like they were from the other day. I visited NYC in March with my family. Riding the subways again was second nature to me. I got to introduce my son to the rainfan window on an R32 C train going up CPW. I was disappointed to see how much slower the express trains were running from what I remembered, but still I tried to ride on as many lines I could during my four days there.
I want to see a subway series at least once in my lifetime. My Dad would tell me stories about them from the 40's and 50's.
Regards,
Jose
Dallas, TX
Well Jose, let me tell you of one. 44 years ago today, the Brooklyn Dodgers won their last World Series game. They defeated the Yankees 1-0 in ten innings on Jackie Robinson's last his as a Dodger. Clem Labine beat Bob Turley is a great pitcher's duel. No I didn't look it up. I have a great memory.
And the day before, Don Larson pitched a perfect game. Bobby Jones came mighty close to duplicating that on Sunday, retiring the Giants in order in eight out of nine innings. Not too shabby.
I have a copy of Sports Illustrated from 1985, with an article by George Piimpton on a potential Subway Series. It has photos of Plimpton on the 7 and standing by a white 4 or 5 train at Grand Central. There is also a photo of fans heading for the BMT after a game at Ebbets Field during the last Subway Series.
And 44 years ago today Steve (and others), the Yankees behind Johnny Kuck's three hitter blasted the Dodgers 9-0 to win it for the Bronxites. That was the last Subway Series game to this day, but, maybe, that string will end.
>>> <"I>That was the last Subway Series game to this day, <<<
The true classic Subway Series was between the Bronx and Brooklyn, in the days when most of the games were played in daylight, and employees in New York regularly missed work to attend "funerals". Alas, I doubt that any of us will ever see another.
Tom
(I want to see a subway series at least once in my lifetime.)
The odds of a subway series at the start of the year are less than one percent. It's up to 25 percent now. It can happen. We've never had a subway series, but we have had an all Missouri Series and a Bay Area series in my lifetime.
Then again, the Bay Area series didn't turn out so well. I hope we don't have a hurricane, blackout and riot, transit strike, or other New York equivalent of an earthquake during any prospective subway series.
I was born a month after the last Subway Series, so there hasn't been one during my lifetime either - almost.
but we have had an all Missouri Series
Cool name for that: Show Me Series.
IIRC the St. Louis-Kansas City series was called the Amtrak Series since Amtrak ran special trains from the visitors' city to the host.
IIRC the St. Louis-Kansas City series was called the Amtrak Series since Amtrak ran special trains from the visitors' city to the host.
It also was called the Interstate 70 Series.
And that was a wierd series. The Cards won the first two in Kansas City, and then the Royals went to St. Louis and made a great comeback to eventually win it all. Poor Dick Howser, he soon passed away and had little time to enjoy his great triumph. That has always left me sad.
* very happy with the BRAVES being kicked out by the cardinals!! what happened to live organ music players in ballparks these days ??
I would like to see posters about other rail systems besides nyc!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
* very happy with the BRAVES being kicked out by the cardinals!! what happened to live organ music players in ballparks these days ??
I would like to see posters about other rail systems besides nyc! .
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
I love cardinals (birds) but the Mets will stop St. Louis, only to be CRUSHED by the BEST TEAM ***FOR*** ALL TIME, the >>>AWESOME<<< YANKEES!
Well, Shea Stadium has an organ once again. Nothing like the original Thomas Organ Jane Jarvis used to play, mind you, but it's still not bad. They do play a "Charge" recording at each game made on the Thomas before Frank Cashen had it removed.
The Yankees are leading the Atheletics 6:0 before Andy Pettitte gets on the mound! Unbelievable!
The Mets are in the NLCS and the Yankess are on the verge of hosting Seattle Mariners. Keep our Subway Series dream alive!
Chaohwa
Say what you want about the Yankees cuz they have been slumping...but this team held on and advanced to the ALCS. I was happy to see the bullpen do so well, especially on the 44th anniversary of Don Larsen's perfect game in the world series. BTW, the last subway series was also 44 years ago. It should be a good series with Seattle. The Yankees have two advantages: Home field, and one of Seattle's best starters is injured for the rest of the season.
My congrats to the Mets. I'm glad that they are playing the cardinals instead of the Braves. While St. Louis certainly has a good team, the mets have a better chance to defeat them then Mr. Turner's team.
Watch out....the #4 will be packed Tuesday and Wednesday night...and the #7 will be as well Saturday, Sunday and possibly next monday as well.
Lets make this dream a reality!!! -Nick
Observations from Jamaica station, track 8:
Yesterday, the 7:29 PM Speonk train had 2 DM engines, and 3 passenger cars! The 2 engines were in diesel mode! To top that off, the last passenger car was a cab car, so the rear engine could have been taken off and there would have been no problems whatsoever!
Today, the 5:38 Oyster Bay had a DM in diesel mode as well. What about the oil shortage!
What about the oil shortage!
They're doing their share!
Modern locomotives get about 150 miles to the gallon*
*Per ton of payload.
ROFL
Elias
Modern locomotives get about 150 miles to the gallon*
*Per ton of payload.
Oh Brother! I think your math is awry. A locomotive pulling a 1000 ton payload would get 150,000 miles/gallon?
No. If it's pulling a 1000 ton payload then it's getting .15 mpg in absolute terms.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Looks like my math was awry. Perhaps 150 ton-miles per gallon would be an accurate figure.
Yes, that would be the correct way of putting it. For passenger service, a more useful figure would be passenger miles per gallon, since a train carrying 100 passengers at 5 mpg would be less efficient than one carrying 200 passengers at 4 mpg.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
While It may look rediculous with 2 engines, and 3 cars, (one being a cab-control car) it sometimes is neccessary. The cab car may be experiencing a ASC failiure, so to save time, and not fix things properly they throw on another engine on the west end. The cab cars are even less reliable than those shoeboxes(DE30's).
Possible senario: Maybe they have a bad ordered engine on one of the layups at Speonk and the extra engine will be cut off that train upon arrival at Speonk and put on to power the train with the defective engine towed back to Queens Monday morning on a regularly scheduled train. Just trying not to waste money!
I'm sure what Bill from Maspeth says is probably THE correct answer to the situation.
Many times on the weekends, LIRR will pull an engine in from Speonk to do its regularly scheduled inspection, or fix some b.o. item. And, that train out in Speonk would need an engine to get going come Monday morning.
I can remember in the late 1960's, they'd send the extra engine back out on the train that left Jamaica at 12:12 a.m. on a Monday morning. That particular train had three ping-pong coaches. Believe me, with a pair of the Alco Century 420's pulling three cars (usually two of which were in use and one empty), the train took off like a rocket! You quickly learned where those cars got their "ping-pong" name from!!!
Sometimes a cab car is included because it has a working restroom.
-- Kirk
Both other cars had working restrooms, one was a bar car. Though, I think Bill from Maspeth has the most plausible reason.
What oil shortage? You mean the one artificially induced by the automobile manufacturers? The one that congress wrongly blames on OPEC?
-Hank
Amtrak rules for LIRR require two DM engines when operating into Penn. Amtrak operates Penn Station and NJT/LIRR are subject to their rules.
So if this train was going into Penn even with a cab car they have to slap another DM on the other end.
The train arrived in Jamaica around 2:10 PM today, same exact consist. It must have been a faulty cab car (though they have extra in that yard near Jamaica, why would they pull out another DM?)
I was at the Shoreline Trolley Museum this Saturday for their "Autumn in New York" event. Many other sub-talkers were there also. The Shoreline people including Doug,Thurston and Stef among others did a fine job and made it an excellent day. The weather cooperated and it was a beautiful clear Autumn day. Four trolley cars were in service; Brooklyn Rapid Transit # 4573, Third Avenue Railway # 629 and Union Railway # 316. Of course the pride of the fleet BMT #1001 came out and made several runs.
The rapid transit cars were well represented also. IRT Lo-V 5466 and IND R-9 1689 ran together and IRT R-17 6688 and BRT BU 1227 also ran.
The best was kept until the last trip when Deckroof Hi-V 3662 came out to run in a three car train with 1689 and 5466. It was a real treat to ride on of the last of the great IRT patriarchs.
If you didn't go this year try to make it next time. Its worth the trip.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah, Larry it was a GREAT day for SubTalkers at Branford this weekend.
On Saturday we were graced will the presence of another SubTalker of note, Paul Matus and his family. It was good to see him again. Larry, perhaps you and Paul will get the chance to run into each other at a future Branford event.
The weather was perfect for the cars (but alittle brisk for the people). The R-9 performs much better in cooler temperatures, so we were not disappointed when it went down the line in two different configurations: first MU'd to the Low-V and then later in the day it was sandwiched by the High-V and the Low-V for a "triplex" consist.
Next time I hope we'll have an even greater turn-out of our railfan brethrn.
BMTman
It was my first time at Branford in about 30 years, give or take. It was great to see Doug again, and SubwaySurf and Thurston. I missed most everyone else, not getting there 'till 3 o'clock.
My favorite thing of the outing was riding Brooklyn 4573 from the parking lot to what used to (?) be called "Bera Brae." As I remarked to Doug, Brooklyn trolleys were not always pretty, but the 4500's were. 4573 is a delight to the ear as well, from compressor sound to wheel squeal.
I amused my kids by letting them know what an old man I am, that the 4500's were still running when I was born, though I enever saw or rode one in service (AFAIK).
The kids loved the static exhibits and climbing on different cars to get their pictures taken. Unfortunately, they got tired and cranky (they're 8 and 10 and it was a long trip) so I didn't stay as long as I would have liked.
Speaking of the trip, we took the PJ-Bridgeport ferry (expensive, but saves a lot of wear and tear). I left 1:30 hours for the 45 minute trip from Babylon to PJ but came close to not making it. But we did make it--I wish the MTA could run the system like the Ferry company runs those ferries. Basically, they allow their ferries a 15-minute turnaround in port. That is, the 11:30 Bridgeport ferry arrives PJ at 12:45. They managed to unload the boat (cars and passengers) and reload it in 15 minutes. Promptly at 1 o'clock, we were heading out of harbor.
We took the 5:30 Bridgeport back and, amazingly, they were still running within 5 minutes of on time.
Thanks to Doug, JJ, Lou Shavell, Jeff, and everyone else that made the day great for my friend Al S. (who drove 1227) and myself (who drove 6688).
I had a BLAST!!!!!!
Sorry that they didn't let Doug do his Anthony Luciano impression.
You may be sorry, but I am really glad!
Heypaul could be seen lurking around the R-9, but there were no reenactments of the infamous Malbone Street Wreck.
-Stef
Darn! I was hoping that heypaul would have spent all of his time taking pictures of 1227!
karl... i took about 6 shots of 1227, but they were all from the ground... i took a couple of shots of the trucks and several of the gates... i left early in the day, as i had to deliver a lecture over at yale medical school on the prognosis for long term behavioral change in the middle aged railfan...
i was indeed lurking by the r-9 compressor, when the car was off on the siding... i got some compressor sounds on ground level right by the air compressor... it shut off, and i waited about 15 minutes, listening to it pant every 10 seconds... the panting increased in length, and i was expecting the compressor to kick on... it didn't... while i was waiting, the low v's compressor came on at least 6 times...
doug took some shots of 1227 later in the day when they ran it... he told me that he would scan them and e-mail them to you...
Those pictures of 1227 sound great, I really appreciate it. I'm sorry that the R-9 compressor was not more responsive while you were there.
I did not have much time to think about what I was missing at Branford as I was busy trying to sell bus seats. The GAF is sponsoring a weekend trip to Niagara Falls as a fund raiser and I get a free seat if I can sell out the bus! I hope that the Yale lecture went well. When you do these lectures do you use your cab as a podium?
From behalf of the Branford Crew, I thank all who came to the event and showed their support for the collection. It's a great hope that all will come again.
I had a busy Sunday. In rags, under the direction of 6688's regular operator, who is Lou Shavell, I attempted to troubleshoot a persistent door problem which wouldn't go away. So in I ran to the shop, got a cup of grease, and lubed the door joints up on one pair. The doors still need adjustment, but they're better than they were before. Then came the request from J.J. the dispatcher. He needed a conductor on the PCC and I graciously accepted. Someone's ears were ringing when I said I had a uniform to put on which I did. In exchange for my duties aboard the PCC I got to greet the passengers, punch tickets, and meet a large RABBIT who came aboard. Who was this rabbit? I have no clue. His first name wasn't BUGS, that's for sure.
Anyway to make a long story short, I went down the line operating the PCC which was totally unexpected. 1001 gives 6688 a run for her money. They are the two fastest cars on the property.
Wrapping it up, I was dispatched to bring 6688 up to the platform for service to Short Beach. The car was turned over to the regular operator who went on his way. I finished up the day by putting 6688 to sleep which was in the shop once again. Well, playtime's over, and it's back to work on the car!
-Stef
P.S. Anyone get pics of the 3 car Hi-Lo-R-9 train? It was a classic moment.
10/10/2000
Operating the R-9 (#1689) from Quarry to Short Beach under Jeff H.'s guidance was a thrill to me. A first for me.
However, riding on the rear platform of #1227 with BMTman was a treat indeed. That car for 96 years of age moves and sounds very nice. But the most memorable part was closing when it got dark. Something the average person doesn't see at Branford since everything happens in daylight. The sight of #1227 in the dark with the interior lights and marker on was inspiring. The Brooklyn PCC #1001 with it's interior lights and front sign lit up was something I've never seen before. But the sight of the R-9 in total darkness with just the rear signs and markers lit brings goosebumps as I type this.
Bill "Newkirk"
I believe it. I've gotten to ride 6688 on a cold December Night with nothing more than battery lights. Even I have to agree it was interesting to see 1227 in the dark. As I was walking toward Sprague and was watching 1227 pass me, I started scratching my head as the car continued on the Mainline past the loop. I thought the car was going over the trestle. But to no avail! It stopped short of the trestle which takes you to the main station. For those who don't know, the trestle which links the Station in East Haven with the rest of the line in Branford, has weight restrictions imposed, so seeing an RT Car over the trestle is unlikely.
-Stef
I'm almost positive they took 1689 across that trestle after hours in 1980 once, when the crew was on their way to a members meeting in Sprague. I hung around after closing on the day of the Trolley Festival, even rode on 1689 during a run-by, and watched it rumble towards Sprague as I headed out to my car. I think they may have granted me preferential treatment that day because I bought my sign box earlier.
The trestle was re-decked in 1991. At the time we had a structural
evaluation done and we were advised that the conservative load
limits would preclude regular operation of heavy equipment across
the span. Thus there is a standing operations policy that RT cars
are not permitted over that trestle. 1227 is fairly light but has
a high axle loading because of the two huge Westinghouse 50L motors
on the motor truck. 1689 is pretty heavy.
I see. Yes, 1689 tips the scales at 41-42 tons. I'd say the honor of the heaviest car at the museum would be a tossup between 2775, SIRT 388, and North Shore 709.
When Money Car G comes back, I guess that will be the next time RT equipment is over into "East Haven" (or mayhap an R33 delivered hehehehehehe).....
Maybe they could send over one of 1689's sister units. I'd even settle for 1575. At least it can m. u. with 1689.
The heaviest car is South Brooklyn electric locomotive #4,
followed by North Shore 709, followed by
Cornwal/ ex-Utah & Idaho Central Baldwin-Westinghouse
locomotive #12, then Montreal steeplecab 5002, then
2775 and 388.
jeff... if you include all the cars up at branford last weekend, i think doug's chrysler 300 was the heaviest car ...
For me too the "members only" after hours moves are a great joy. The sights & sounds of the cars moving about the line at night is a delight. There were many of these moments for those members who were there both days.
Saturday I was in my dungaree all day. The day started early as several of us had to clean up the R-17. Just before she went into service another SubTalker, Patrick Jones, gave her floor a good mopping. Sunday Lou from Brooklyn & I were asked to put on uniforms to operate some trolley runs. Then at the end of the day I changed back just in time to help Stef & the BMTman put the R-17 back in the shop.
It was great to get to say hello to so many SubTalkers, I only regret that I didn't have more time to talk with each of you. A busy couple of days that ended all too soon !
Mr t__:^)
I was one of the passengers on 1227 on the last run to Sprague. It was fun climbing down and jumping off of it at the trestle.
I agree Bill. The night running of the cars is something alot of the members enjoy as it gives the line a whole different feel. Very moody and yet exciting as turns and other ROW features are harder to make out, making a trip to Short Beach just a bit "spicier".
It was good running into you again, Bill. And certainly it good to see a "rare appearance" of our fellow SubTalker, Far Rockaway A-Train, up at Branford.
BTW, Thurston, and I left around 8:30 just after taking turns at piloting the PCC down to Short Beach and back. We last saw most of you guys on board 1227 at the high level platform as it was being prepared for a run to Short Beach. I'm curious -- what time did you leave, and did you give a lift to Far Rock?
BMTman
I agree Bill. The night running of the cars is something alot of the members enjoy as it gives the line a whole different feel. Very moody and yet exciting as turns and other ROW features are harder to make out, making a trip to Short Beach just a bit "spicier".
It was good running into you again, Bill. And certainly it good to see a "rare appearance" of our fellow SubTalker, Far Rockaway A-Train, up at Branford.
BTW, Thurston, and I left around 8:30 just after taking turns at piloting the PCC down to Short Beach and back. We last saw most of you guys on board 1227 at the high level platform as it was being prepared for a run to Short Beach. I'm curious -- what time did you leave, and did you give a lift to Far Rock?
BMTman
Your description of 1227 in the dark sort of gave me goose bumps too. As you know 1227 is the car that would be the first on my list to see if I were to ever get to Branford!
I have a question on the BU's, and wonder if anyone would know the answer. If I recall correctly the electrical panel on the cars use the old fashioned knife switches. Is it possible that the marker lights and the two platform lights on a given end of a BU are connected to a DPST type switch, indicating that they both can't be illuminated at the same time?
I recall rare instances when the BU's were still in service, that a train would go by with the marker lights dark on the rear of the last car, but the platform lights would be lit(the platform lights are normally dark on the front & rear of a train because the marker lights are lit).
This is a question that I have wondered about for almost fifty years. The more I think about this I wonder if Jeff H may be the only one who might know the answer.
I'll have to look at the knife switch panel to be sure, but
I think you are correct. Either the two marker lights or the two
platform light bulbs are selected by an SPDT knife switch and
the selected pair completes the 5 bulb circuit with 3 interior lights.
Thanks so much Jeff! It has been a question that has been bothering me for many years. I should have asked you long ago.
Sorry about the DPST, I always have problems with DPST & SPDT.
Is 1227 visible on a regular weekend, or can it only be seen on one of the special New York weekends?
It is stored in one of the non-public barns. With an advance
appointment it can be shown.
I was afraid that you were going to say that!
Yah Stef, showing up Sunday morning, old Sparky made me change from shop get up (tee shirt and jeans) into uniform to play conductor on PCC 1001. Trade off did get me "handle" (hey what handles?) on 1001 when we made non revenue moves. My first time ever running 1001 and it was KEWL!! (think I have a new fav trolley, sorry 629)...
Since I had to leave 1pm to make it home before Sunset, you were drafted.
Non revenue? Sparky put me in the driver's seat with passengers on board!
-Stef
Here's a thought: if you were to race 1001 and 6688, which one would win?
I hate to say it, but it appears that 1001 is actually faster than 6688. Somebody at BERA may dispute this, but this appears to be the case. 1001 accelerates at a faster rate.
-Stef
BUT 1001 has the 42mph max governor on her and I am sure Lou S. would swear he had 6688 up to 45mph during a certain night running we both made last year.
Lou, there's no governor. 1001 has a theoretical balancing speed
of 45 MPH and 6688 50 MPH. On Branford's line, 1001 is faster
because it accelerates at 4.0 MPH/sec while 6688 runs up at 2.5.
1001 reaches balancing speed on the short (~1500 ft) straightaways
but 6688 needs a little more room.
I sit corrected... We are just overjoyed with getting foot pedal time on 1001 >G<
I think because of the padded seats on 1001 and the fact that she's lower to the ground, she may not beat 6688 but the ride will be much smoother for the passengers.
The speed would depend on where I could start out from. There is more power in the line as you get closer to Sprague, and there have been a couple of times when I was able to start out near the trestle. At that point, the acceleration was equal to what you would experience at the TA. For reasons of safety, we can't run full out from there. However, we will find out next year. About a year ago, the Branford police department was going to lend me one of their old radar guns. I was going to check the speed on all the cars. Next year we will.
That's the great thing about Shoreline, i.e. the track is kept in good shape and there are a couple of nice streight pieces where we can safely let the cars have all they'll take. Maybe they don't get up to their max. speed, but it's enough to make it an enjoyable ride. Then the curves, switches and dead end test your skills as an operator. I try my best to offer the other folks on board a smooth ride, so if I dump anyone on the floor I'm proud of myself.
Mr t__:^)
I wish I could be there when you do use the radar gun, especially with 1689. It would be interesting to see what speed equates to which gear pitch; for example, whether E above middle C equates to 30 mph.
Those PCCs were famous for their get-up-and-go, that's for sure.
How about 6688 vs 1689? I'd be willing to bet 6688 would win.
Steve, I'd put my money on the faster "horse" too, 6688.
BMTman
Yeah, especially after hearing it can still take off like a bullet.
The rabbit had a vest on that said "Rapid T. Rabbit." He interviewed one of the "conductors" around 4:00 on Sunday, and it was videotaped. Perhaps a new Saturday morning version of Transit Transit news?? I think a Chinese man I saw at Sprague station a little later was Rapid sans bunny suit. I have to admit, that was one of the most bizarre sights of the day...
When 1227 is operated, is it operated by itself, or is it chained up to another car?
Hi, Karl.
The gate car runs solo as it is in a class by itself, so to speak.
I think I disappointed a number of railfans when I was wrestled from the controls of 1227 after the car's caretakers, Jeff H. and Steve Kann got wind of my plans for a "Malbone Street re-enactment".
I will certainly send you a download of one of my 1227 shots when they're developed.
BMTman
Sounds like I had better get my printer tuned up!
Thank You!
10/10/2000
#1227 usually runs MU with Car "G". But since "G" is on loan at the NY Transit Museum in Court St, #1227 runs solo.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah! If only we could get 824 out the door, I'd be happy. Too bad she's not in better shape. I'm sure the Master Mechanic could get another Manhattan El Car to couple with 1227.
-Stef
Don't forget that you have 659, 1349 & 1362 up there too!
Of course! And don't forget Kings County Trailer 197 and BRT Instruction Car 999, a true oddball at best.
-Stef
I had completely forgotten about 197, but I guess it is because it is a trailer. I formed the opinion as a kid years ago that a trailer was only half a car because it needed a powered mate to go anywhere.
Trailers serve their purpose. After all, the oldest trailers dated from the steam era, and 197 was at least 60 years old when she was retired. What about other steam coaches? They were rebuilt and made the center car of the C-Types. The center car always looked odd because it was higher than the two outer cars. Didn't numerours trailers and 700 series cars have the highest clestory roofs, maxing out at 13'?
-Stef
I rode numerous trailers on the Lex and the Myrt in the 1940's but they were all in the 200 series, I think that the lower numbers were retired before then. The power for their lights was supplied by a jumper cable connected just under the roof on the end platform to a motorized car that it was coupled to. The interior of the trailers seemed to be in fine condition. The external wood looked like weathered unpainted wood, similar to the way an unpainted barn would look. This was at a time when NYCTS was painting the brown colored BU's green. I have no record of them ever painting a 200, perhaps their days were numbered then and NYCTS knew it.
Isn't this Friday the 50th anniversary of the last run on the Lex?
Congratulations Steve! You remembered. It was 50 years ago this coming Friday, and it was a Friday in 1950 too!
An unlucky date at that. Friday the 13th and all that.
At least you're able to say you were there.
I believe I seen her mated to the R-17, but solo run with her is a real treat. She just seems to glide down the line, and you just can't beat hanging out on her back porch while she's doing that.
I do like the R-17, as most of you know, but the BU is a very close second.
Mr t__:^)
They can't. Coupling mechanisms are different, plus they aren't compatible. At least the R-9 and Lo-V have trainline braking when they get coupled together. FYI, I put the Lo-V and R-9 Train together on Sunday.
-Stef
The R-9 was a dead unit at one time or another some time ago, and the R-17 was used as a tow motor to get it out of the way.
-Stef
How about when 3662 was added on? Did 1689 do all the pulling and pushing?
To Short Beach: 1689 had an operator pushing behind 3662. 3662 was also an active motor in the lead with a Train Operator in position. They aren't MU'ed which requires an operator in each unit. 5466 was in trailing mode.
On the return to Farm River Rd, 5466 and 1689 were operational with 3662 in trailing position.
-Stef
How are the doors on the IRT oldtimers? IIRC, the end doors on 3662 are manual while 5466 has remote controlled doors.
3662's doors don't work right now, while she is undergoing a slow restoration. 5466's, meanwhile are a little troublesome and will need to be tinkered with.
-Stef
Thurston, 1227 has the old fashioned Van Dorn-type couplers while 6688 is equipped with H2C couplers, so there is no way those two could be MU'd.
I HAVE seen the R-17 push/pull the Mineola, but that was not in an MU situation, just a towing manevour behind the shop on the loop. There was a coupler "adaptor" added to the H2C that allowed 6688 to connect to the Mineola's bar-and-pin coupler system.
BMTman
You would really enjoy it if you could put a pair of BU's together, and then ride one of the platforms between the two cars!
Yes that would be real nice. Shoreline has several wooden elevated cars, maybe they'll let one more of them come out & play OR we can wait for the "G" car to come back, as she's operational.
Mr t__:^)
I finally got my password!
Sunday at SLTM was great; it was nice to connect some faces to the posts I've been reading, even though I've never posted and no one knows who the hell I am ;). Piloting 6688 was a blast. Next year, I'm going for 1227.
I put my digital pictures up on Geocities; if anyone wants to see or use them, go to http://www.geocities.com/sockanosset2/sltm. Unfortunately, they came out rather blurry. The pictures from my "conventional" camera should be much better; I should have those up in a couple weeks. I'm sure I have a couple good shots of the 3-car consist; not too much escaped my lens.
BTW (and sorry to go off topic on my first post), is the owner of the '67 Thunderbird that was in the parking lot on this list?
In your 4573 and 629 in the right corner you can see me (arms across chest) talking to Thurston. Two operators at BERA and Subtalkers.
Though your MBTA Green line PCC looks awfuly like our Trackless Trolley Bus....>G<.
Thanks for the Pix...
OOPS! Thanks for the correction; I just saw "green and streamlined," put 2 and 2 together, and got 11. Any other corrections to my captions would be appreciated, too.
Hey, Mike, good to have you aboard!
And thanks for sharing the pictures!
Hope to see you on some other SubTalk trips.
BMTman
Love the pics, particularly of 6688 leaving the platform. Hey you even got a pic of our work supplies on the platform while 6688 was departing..... Nice Subway Map Shot, it was clear in the reflection where the pic was being taken!
-Stef
The T-bird belonged to one of the members of the Connecticut
T-Bird club which was visiting the museum on a charter that day.
Mike, Nice collections of photos, why not consider doing a write up and submit with photos to Dave as a "Field Trip" report ?
Mr t__:^)
Glad to see 1689 looking so good. I can hear those bull and pinion gears right now.
I just read on BusTalk about T/O's getting robbed while walking on the el structure to Livonia Yard. Is this practice still going on???
3Train#2141Mike
This is on of those apocryphal stories. Everyone has heard the story, but no one actually knows who it was. I find it highly unlikely that such an event ever took place, and even more so douby that it is stilla continuing practice.
I knew a few co-workers who have been robbed there. It definitely has happened. While it may not be a continuing practice, this story is something that has definitely occurred in the past. After all, we are talking about East New York at the height of the crack epidemic.
Wouldn't surprise me if it was. BTW, they still use taxis at Pitkin Yard to get crews back to Euclid without incident.
I must be jinxed cause every time that I ask for a taxi(which is an in progress yard move), there isn't any. So I then have to walk the tracks to Grant Av. Trust me, it's not pleasant.
I've been doing it for a long time, I know. The weeded lot through the basketball court and the long cross over North Conduit is enough for me to wait for a taxi, regardless of time. What you can do is offer to double end a layup back to the station and the yardmaster shouldn't argue the point.
But if it's a female train operator and the YardMaster is a male............you can fill in the blanks!
In the summer of 1997, I worked a Rockaway Park shuttle job on Sunday. It was an early p.m. job that started at Rock Pk and finished at Euclid(The job cleared at Rock Pk) Technically, I either deadhead back or take the train light to Rock Pk. The dispatcher made me lay up the train south of Euclid on those tracks that end with a bumper block. In this case, since I know a switchperson was available, the switchperson is supposed to lay up the train. But guess what,the switchperson was a woman! There's definitely no way the dispatcher would have her go back there.
You are too nice. I would have insisted that she lay the train up if that is actually part of her assignment.
If a woman takes the T/O job then she should do EVERYTHING that the title consists of(and that applies to men too).
One time when I was a conductor our train went into emergency on the structure. A woman was the T/O. She asked me to walk around the train for her as she was very scared of walking the structure. I told her absolutely not, if you are so scared of walking the el then you should have thought about it when you took the job.
To be nice however, I walked right behind her on the structure just in case she freaked out, but I made sure that she walked the el and did whatever she had to do on her own. Most women do the job properly but I do not support any preferential treatment just because of the persons sex.
You would have both been in BIG trouble if that train had gone into emergency a second time being that conductors are not trained to handle equipment walkarounds. As far as walking around another persons train, that is a problem a TSS is for. You are not expected to sacrifice the safety of your passengers to compensate for anyone, whether it is derived from complications due to the ADA act or other examples. Except in an extreme emergency, such as a collision, a fire to the extremes of Clark St, or incident which would place LIVES in jeapoardy, not equipment, but LIVES, I would not secure my passenger train to help another T/O who can not walk around his/her train in a normal circumstance. If you are given a DIRECT ORDER to walk around another train, make it worth the while by working to rule putting 12 handbrakes on your 10 car train. If you are not qualified to do so, state so and put it on the control center's lap.
Hey Mike, are your last initials "M" by chance?
Yes, I did hear about this for the same reasons. I heard that the R10 is used for this. Is this true??
3TM
Why are the express tracks lower at these two IRT stations?
3Train#2104Mike
That's an old IRTism - tracks rose at some stations in order to let gravity help out with the acceleration and deceleration. Most of these instances have since been "flattened." The IRT book available on this site makes mention of this, and I believe that the line-by-line, station-by-station descriptions do as well where applicable.
Mark
i'm doing research on abandoned subway stations, particularly the old city hall station, and wondering if any one knows how to access these stations, whether from an official method or otherwise. i've taken the out of service 6 train numerous times through the loop, but i would like to actually access the station directly not just from inside a train. any suggestions, or personal experiences?
On the Booklyn Bridge platform you take a walkman and start playing that William Tell song as a 6 train passes. The song will give you the appropiate motovation when you dash down the tracks after the train.
I was on a tour of the station in 1993. I was kinda young back then, all I remember was an old ticket booth and stairways leading to pavement, as well as fancy lighting and old mosaics. The NYPD booth was not there. Thanks to Mayor Rudolph Guliani, these tours are no longer allowed (afraid someone will bomb him from underneath).
In theory, if you knew 2 #6 train operators willing to help you, one could drop you off and you could look around and wait for the other to pick you up. The chances of anyone agreeing to that are pretty slim, though.
I once saw a homeless person there, so it is possible to get there somehow (mayhaps an emergency exit?)
Any person on the platform of a closed station without official permission( from Jay Street) is trespassing and subject to arrest by NYPD. A closed station may have hazards not readily visible. A closed subway station is not a playground. Sorry!
The best hope is to become a member of the transit museum. At some point tours might resume(with the next mayor perhaps?) and then you could go on that tour.
I can imagine the headline:
Overzealous railfan caught trespassing in abandoned station
Mayor seeks highest allowable punishment, and was quoted saying "Its people like this who keep me up at night, the only way to prevent these horrible crimes is to discourage the practice of 'railfanning' altogether. The ERA will no longer be allowed to use city property for meetings or otherwise, and the Transit Museum must be shut down. I- I mean the city, must be kept safe at all times!"
Next thing you know, Rudy will bring back caning or flogging as a form of punishment (not that it's all that bad of an idea, IMHO).
Have you spoken to anyone at the A) Transit Museum or B) the TA Public Relations office? If not-- you can't be very serious about your research.... If you have a specific research interest I'm sure that something can be arranged if you deal with the official agencies.
I think you'll find the general wisdom on the net is not to try it on your own...
I think you'll find the general wisdom on the net is not to try it on your own...
Yes! You'll need at least 2 lookouts on the Brooklyn Bridge platform in direct radio contact with yourself. It would also be good to have a scanner tuned to all TA, TP and NYPD frequencies. Best times are 10-11:30 PM and about 5-6AM when its still pretty quiet, but the police aren't looking for late nite antics. Or find out when the shifts change. You'll want to be in and out in the headway interval so bring a stopwatch.
The point is, unless one has permission to do so, it is illegal to be on the platform of the City Hall IRT station. Let's not instruct people as to how to do something that shouldn't be done in the first place.
David
Of course i have contacted various people both employed by the MTA and the tansit museum. I am presently trying to obtain both information and site access under the freedom of information act. Unfortunately, the process may be quite slow as it involves myself, my professesor, the degree project co-ordinator as well as various city officials. Our research presentations are in mid december, and having spent well over a month and a half with little progress other than blurry photographs, and generic technical drawings is more than a little disconcerning. Certainly accessing an abandoned subway station is dangerous, but the mayor of this city in his zealousnous has denined new yorkers access to one of its greatest architectural treasures.
<< I am presently trying to obtain both information and site access under the freedom of information act. >>
LOL!
(69k picture)
Is this on all R46 rollsigns? Why have I never seen this at the front of the train?
The bottom just looks a little dirty to me!
That's the way the N used to be signed on the old R46 bulkhead signs. This time it was a printing boo-boo. A couple of slant R40's have that unusual signage as well.
Maybe a preview of what we see next year.
Enjoy!
TLJ
"Signing Off Indefinately"
www.transitalk.com
I think we just found the definition of a Railfan Frat House. What would this one be?
hey trevor... thanks for posting the pictures... the detail on the second picture was really great... i had seen harry beck's ( i think ) shot of the screen and the writing in the post did not come out... that was a fun afternoon and i am glad you and the other guys came...
No Problem man, I hope we all can do it again soon!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
The young man in the 1st & 3rd shot is my granson. As you can see he got a lot of "handle time" that afternoon.
Mr t__:^)
'Cinders' (local NRHS newsletter) confirms a rumor this month. Apparently SEPTA is giving up on the acquisition of low-floor LRV's to equip route 13 to allow K cars to 'cascade' to Girard Ave (route 15). The new thought is to extract 19 PCC's from storage, rehab them with AC and lifts, and put them to work on Girard Ave. Just when this will happen is unknown (the schedule may have some urgency as Girard Ave work is underway, with hoped-for completion by late '01 or early '02). It is also unknown whether the best of the PCC bunch, which includes those cars selected for the Chestnut Hill and Center City Loop lines several years ago (and painted in the colors of predecessor companies of SEPTA), will be affected. Time will tell.
SEPTA should have rehabed the PCCs in the first place. Maybe they can also purchase some of the soon-to-be retired Newark PCCs from NJT. Good thing SEPTA still has enough PCCs in storage for at least service on Girard Ave. Still, I would like to see some kind of PCC or light rail service in Center City, considering that Girard Ave goes nowhere near downtown.
The Woodland Shop believes they can retrofit PCC's with A/C and low level lifts at the center door. The lift will be major problem, as a low level lift will require major repostioning of the control cabinets, which also occupy the underfloor area of the carbody at the center doors. We shall see.
As to SEPTA getting the Newark cars, ain't gonna happen. NJT and SF MUNI have signed a letter of intent for the purchase of the majority of NJT's PCC's. MUNI needs them desperately, as traffic on the F-Market-Embarcadero line. Patronage has swelled to the point that the current equipment isn't enough to keep up with the demand. In addition to the Newark cars, MUNI is actually looking at rehabbing some of their cars that have been rotting on the piers for the last fifteen years.
That would be nice. Perhaps the E-Embarcadero line will end up using restored PCCs when it is put in service. The track connections between the F waterfront segment and the Brannan extension aare already there, it's just a matter of equipment...
10/09/2000
[addition to the Newark cars, MUNI is actually looking at rehabbing some of their cars that have been rotting on the piers for the last fifteen years.]
I heard that MUNI judged those rotting PCC's unrebuidable and went after SEPTA for some PCC's for purchase. I bet PATCO (Pittsburgh) would have loved to sell MUNI their PCC's rather then scrapping them!
Bill "Newkirk"
At last count SEPTA had 30-40 PCC's on the property (including the half-dozen or so rehabbed for the Center City loop plus the four or so for Chestnut Hill), so it probably doesn't need to go shopping anywhere else to get them.
If SEPTA plans to rehab the PCC's and install A/C and lifts, then they should not make the same mistake with 2165 (that car was retrofitted with an A/C unit from a fishbowl, but did not work). With the aid of computers, an A/C could be designed for a PCC, or if it's possible, they should find the blueprints for Washington D.C.'s model (since they were the first to successfully air condition a PCC).
DC's air conditioning unit is about 45 years out of date technologically, and the use of R12 refridgerant is no longer allowed.
There are NEW a/c units, made for new-gen transit buses that are much more efficient, eco-minded, and way smaller.
I measured a unit from one of the local charter operators to see if they would fit under the roof cowl of one our ex-Boston cars. They do!
As far as installing a lift in the center doors, again new tech control systems are available for these '47 cars, so the equipment can be relocated/replaced. Alot of work, but a heck of a lot cheaper than a new Bombardier or Duwag car.
Another question is why doesnt SEPTA order T3R's from TATRA? These cars are less than $1mil a copy fully compliant.
I read that CKD Tatra went bankrupt and was bought out by Siemens. I wasn't even sure they still made the T3R. How similar are they to the PCC and how reliable are/were they?
I wasn't even sure they still made the T3R. How similar are they to the PCC and how reliable are/were they?
Very similar and very reliable. Basically, they copied the design (without paying royalties, of course - communism at its finest) and have continued to produce it with only minor changes. The bodies have evolved to meet the needs of the cities where the cars run, but mechanically they're still basically the same.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Close.
The Tatra PCC design was licenced from the Transit Research Corp. without royalties (after the 1st 150 cars)in an effort to make nice with the Eastern block. The 15,000 or so T1/T2/T3 cars built from 1951 until 1983 were virtual mechanical/electrical duplicates of the Westinghouse powered, B3 trucked cars we had here.
There were significant electronic improvements made since the early 80's. The new T3R's were upgraded using the technology learned from the newer models produced by Tatra.
The T3R can come one of two ways, either totally new construction, or as a tradein rebuilt of "your" existing car.
Tatra's made a pretty good product, but their status as a company may not be as sound. I hear that one of the German companies is trying to buy them as a low cost facility to make their own cars for the West and the new East.
Jan, thanks for the clarification. I figured either you or Dan Lawrence would have the exact info.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I ref'd to my copy of Fred Schneiders book. ALOT of interesting stuff was going on in the early '50's to generate income for the TRC.
I ref'd to my copy of Fred Schneiders book. ALOT of interesting stuff was going on in the early '50's to generate income for the TRC.
I've should have said the D.C. design be modified for R134A refrigerant. But do you think that SEPTA should go ahead and use A/C units off of buses? Maybe what I was trying to say is design an A/C system that would work with the PCC, because a bus unit IMHO will not work. It was tried with 2165 back in the '70s and did not work.
Designed for transit use is what they really are. The unit wouldn't mind if it was on a trolley at all, as long as you fed it the right power.
Carrier Transicold is one of the brands out there. So is TransAir.
There were 2 PCC's that SEPTA AC'd in its early days, with (I believe) 2176 being the other. These same cars received push-type doors in place of the center folding doors, and these worked as well as the AC.
I think the AC was not successful since it attempted to use the existing ventilation system on the cars, which was weak at best (some of you may recall the small fans in the ceilings of the '48 cars). PCC's always seemed at best warm and usually downright hot because of the way the intake air came in from the underfloor/body area. I'm sure this didn't help the AC at all.
There was an option from the 1945 spec book for 3 large Westinghouse fans in a long duct mounted on the roof. Made the cars kinda ugly, but they worked enough to allow for sealed windows on cars so equipped.
It wasn't so bad if the standard small fanned cars were moving with the windows open, but stuck in traffic, whew! Much like the pre-a/c subway cars we had here.
As much as I am a fan of the PCC, their parts availability for the wearables just aint what it used to be. Unless - hey anybody want to help me repro parts?
But it was a nice try. 2165, 2176, and 2159 (although they no longer exist), have been nicknamed the "Fishbowl" PCC's due to the fact that they have parts lifted off of Fishbowls, like the A/C, marker lights, center doors, Lighting, seats, and have the armrests replaced with wrinkled aluminum wainscoting. They did look nice.
I recall that at least one of these had carpeting, which to me seemed like overkill. The turn signals also seemed a bit hokey for these cars.
Carpeting?
Yes indeed! It was a sight to see, that is before it got dirty and sad looking.
I was by chance flipping through some old T&M's last night and I saw the color shots featuring those early SEPTA gold/white rebuilds.
I was wondering whose idea was it to "flush mount" the lollypop style turnsignals by putting big dents in the 1/8" steel dash panel right under the belt rail. No kidding!!
That was 2176, one of the "Fishbowl" PCC's. That had carpeting installed. It also featured a sky blue interior paint scheme, wrinkled aluminum wainscoting. It, like 2165, featured center doors off of fishbowls, and like 2165 and 2159, featured fishbowl marker lights, and were in fishbowl colors. All had fishbowl seats (2176 had the cushion variety). Only 2165 had the now-infamous fishbowl A/C unit. I thought SEPTA did a good job on those three cars back then. May 2176 rest in peace.
'Cinders' also reports that almost all of the SEPTA Silverliners have received the window-area red/blue striping. It looks very nice. In casual observations of the rail system every day I had noticed lately that unstriped cars are harder to find. It seems that they will be gone very soon.
They've re-striped the Silverliners but have they given them new interiors? I hope so.
10/09/2000
It takes more time to rehab an interior as opposed to applying a decal to the car's exterior.
Bill "Newkirk"
They should have only striped the rehabbed ones, so they'd be easier to spot. I was surprised to find that the new striped car I took to Philly a while back had the old interior, while the unstriped car on the same train had the new one.
I noticed that a few (at least 2) of the Budd Silverliner II's still
have "PENNSYLVANIA" above the windows. Is SEPTA planning to keep a
couple of Silverliner II's in their Pennsylvania Railroad livery for
railfanning/nostalgia purposes? Why did SEPTA remove the
"PENNSYLVANIA" and "READING COMPANY" from the Silverliner II's to
begin with? They should have just left it alone. I also hope that
SEPTA leaves at least a few of their Silverliners (II's, III's and
IV's) unstriped, so they can retain their original appearance, also
for nostalgia.
I noticed that a few (at least 2) of the Budd Silverliner II's still have "PENNSYLVANIA" above the windows
Most of the Cape May Seashore Lines' Budd cars still have "Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines" over their windows.
I head that they had removed the last old Letterboard. Someone spotted a car in the process of removal and it only read "Sylvania" making commuters think they had gotten off in a Marx Brothers film.
I'm curious as to if those old Silverliners are still running their origional, ignitron based propulsion systems. I've seen tthem a few times when I've been in Philly, and it's always cool to see them because they're pretty historical units. I believe they were the first good rectifier MUs made. Of course, the New Haven fans here will dissagree, but the Washboards weren't spectacularly sucessful.
I think the ignitron didn't last past the 70's. The final E-44 units were delivered w/ Silicon diodes and the first 44 were later upgraded while under PRR. I'm not even sure if any units besides the Poineer III units had Hg arc rectifyers. Can anybody confirm the fate of those Pioneer III cars. Last I heard they were stored near Wayne Jct or Jenkintown, depowered on a siding. Those are historic cars.
Actually, the Ignitrons might have lasted past the 70's. they were used as 'voltage valves", they way the modern SCR / Thyristors are used. I believe the Silverliner IIs had sillicon rectifiers in addition to the ignitrons, and I've been told the M-2s were even delivered this way. The Metroliners were split between SCR (Westinghouse) and ignitron (GE). The GE units were more reliable than the Westinghouse ones, I believe. Ignitrons surely lasted beyond the Pioneer cars - the NJ arrows had them too.
As for those Pioneer IIIs (was there a Pioneer I and II?), I know they were running until like 3 or 4 years ago, and I believe they may have been scrapped :( From what i understand they were actually slower in service than the MP-54's, and were manual acceleration, though I'm not sure if that was by design or by a buggy control system.
The E-44s used their ignitrons solely as rectifiers, so converting to solid state was easy. I believe the solid state versions had like 200 or so diodes in them, all in a bank. Probbably not much larger than the tubes they replaced, but certainly louder - the tubes were water cooled but the diodes were air cooled.
Contary to popular belief, tubes didn't suddenly dissapear in the 60's and 70's, in fact radio transmitters even today use them, because they handle power much better than transistors. I really wasn't until the European developed thyristor locomotives came on the scene that the ignitron's days were numbered. I'm not sure who built the first modern continuously variable passenger motor, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Asea.
I think they were dumped long before 4-5 years ago. I rmember the SEPTA roster at Grand Central in 1995/6 didn't have them listed and the only pic is like from 1985 on the Airport line. They never gave up their Stiensen pantographs. If they were scrapped it is a major historical loss. Those are the first stainless steel, AC/DC MU cars built. Father to the Silverliner, M1/3 and Arrow cars.
At least one II had Reading Company lettering on the 'board until very recently, although I cannot recall the number (I think it was 9017). The Reading never received any III's, but there are 2-3 of them still with Pennsylvania lettering.
Guess what, one of my 2 summer SEPTA pics features a striped Silverliner. Take a look at condor.wesleyan.edu/~mbrotzman/SEPTA_157.jpg
Whatever became of Reading Silverliner IV's 9018-9031. I've noticed they have dissappeared, but at around the same time, 400's showed up. I've almost suspected they have been renumbered, but 9018-9031 were single units, while some of the 400's were married pairs. Any answers are appreciated.
9018-31 are still around although some have been renumbered. The 400's have had the PCB's removed from the transformers and other work done. I think the single units are numbered in the higher parts of the series.
TA buys boat to "inspect bridges" Uh-huh.
ALL ABOARD
Peace,
ANDEE
i think the "bridge inspection thing" is a cover story for the october surprise... because of the unsolvable problems of the r-142a's, the mta has decided to flood the #6 line with five feet of water, and replace heavy rail equipment with hand paddled gondolas similar to venice... think of all the side benefits... want a cheap date on saturday night?.. take a ride on the #6 line...
10/09/2000
[the mta has decided to flood the #6 line with five feet of water, and replace heavy rail equipment with hand paddled gondolas similar to venice...]
Watch the oars ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, Andee, I've heard about that.
I think they're kept dry-docked in the Whitestone area of Queens??
BMTman
The boat is kept at the Crosstown depot, in Greenpoint.
10/09/2000
THE RETURN OF McHALES's NAVY !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
This seems to be old news. Same story that appeared about three months ago.
And the same sort of responses from other posters in here.
Actually, purchasing a boat makes a lot of sense if the TA DOES have bridges to inspect. What would they do, for example, if something happened at o'dark thirty in the morning on one of the Rockaway line bridges -- it would take a bit of time to charter a boat for such emergencies, yet if they had their own boat it would be a matter of minutes (if it was logically stationed in Jamaica Bay) to get one of their people out there if a problem occured on the underside of one of the bridges.
Yeah- I can see it now: MTA Staten Island Ferry-- For $5 ride the train to the train. LOL: ride the SIR to a new ramp at St. george, onto the new train boat and onto the subway system and 39 st yard in Brooklyn, Dramamine extra!
This is St. George, next stop 9th Avenue Brooklyn. Transfers available for the B train.
JUST KIDDING!
The MTH Web site now has the 2001 catalog on line at www.mth-railking.com and in the Premier line they are showing item # 20-2283-1 R-32 4-car MTA subway set in O-Scale that will run on 042 track. This will be a N Train with marker lights, and Protosound 2.0 .See this item for full description of features. Looks and sounds great from the picture.Just hope it produced the correct way.
Have Fun
Ron J.
As we speak , I'm reading about LIONEL having Two new versions of the MU Commuter cars, They'll be New Haven and Reading. Two car sets , Item # 18328 and 18331. MSRP $569.95 .
Does any one know if these are re-runs of the LIONEL PENN and Lackawanna MU's of 1992-93 fame? Has any one seen them in a catologue?
avid
Once again, MTH is working closely with the New York City Model Transit Association to assure that these are as accurate models that can be produced within the constraint of mass-produced toy trains. These will be FULL SCALE LENGTH, and will be part of MTH's "Premier Line". Also, please don not forget that MTH will soon release the "Railking" R-21's in accurate "Redbird" paint scheme. Although "Railking", these too will be full scale length models!
Reserve your's now if you haven't already!!
This R-32 issue needs 042 radius track instead of 031 per a previous post.
Is this because of the 60' scale length?
At the present time, MTH is stating that O-42 is the minimum radius for these cars. Certainly, they will negotiate that with no problems. They MAY be able to get around an O-31 curve (like MTH's Superliners which, although are stated as O-42 minimum, will negotiate an O-31 - as they do in MTH's starter sets). As the design process proceeds, the actual minimum radius for these cars will be determined. Keep in mind that the prototype was designed for 125' minimum radius, which would be 0-63 in O scale. Since similar length O Gauge models usually can go around an O-31 curve, I suspect that these will too, although the various end hardware (pantograph gates etc.) may pose problems on that tight radius. If you can, plan on O-42 to be safe.
Unfortunately I had to go with 0-31 years ago when I built the layout, mainly due to space restrictions. If they are to be to 60' scale they would not look very good trying to negotiate 0-31 anyway, because of the overhang. Thanks for all of the information though!
The wide radius is certainly a disappointment to me. Although I have ample room on my layout, I did use O-31 in 3 places on the subway segment. I hope that MTH will compromise the designe a bit to accommodate the tighteer radius.
Since these cars are to be part of the "Premier Line", I don't think that MTH wants to compromise scale fidelity to achieve the tighter radius capability. It's still awfully early in the process though, so who knows what will develop before the models are shipped! I don't think that truck swing will be an issue, so the cars will probably be able to take the O-31 turns, but the end hardware may present clearance problems. If that turns out to be the case, the individual modeler could easily make the needed modifications. Minimum radius specs are generally on the conservative side anyway, so lets wait and see what can be done! In the meantime, how about posting some pics of that subway layout on the "Modeling the New York City Subway" website??!! See the Transfer Station of this website for the URL. Happy modeling!
Also because they will be to scale and produced under the MTH "Premier Line" we can expect a four-car set to be somewhere closer to $500 or thereabouts (w/Protosounds).
BMTman
Catalog price is $449.95 with proto-sound. The catalog shows only a drawing. I guess that means the set is still on the drawing board. Change is always possible.
Catalog price is $449.95, but the dealer price sheet is $499.95!
A call to MTH to determine which price is correct has not been returned as yet.
The set is apparently only available with proto-sound!
BTW: 2 people from MTH were at Jamaica Yard 2 weeks ago. They were looking over the R-32s
The MTH ones look better! Blue doors! No digital end sign!
I agree. If they were only Railking!!!!
If they were Railking they would probably be shorter, run on 031 curves, and be a bit cheaper in price!
Amen! My new layout is 14' X 16' designed mostly for subway operation. It's still under construction but there are already 3 curves that are O-32. The 3 curves are too critical to change at this late date. It'll be a shame not to have the R-32s in my collection.
O gauge is a difficult gauge when you try to realistically model a 60' car. It is much easier to do a 50' car and be very close to scale. There seemed to be a lot of complaints on the R-42 looking too short two years ago, I did not mind the short car as much as I noticed the different spaces between cars caused by the dummy and operating couplers. This time MTH must be thinking of the scale modelers, rather than the toy train buffs!
I totally agree with your assessment but I still feel cheated. I actually switched from N gauge to O gauge because of the MTH R-42s and the way they operated. All is not totally lost yet. I have two options to explore. The first is that I also planned a Class I RR to run around the outside of my Subway layout. That could be converted to another subway line. (Of course I won't get to run my lionel 681). The other option would be to modify the cars where necessary to make then operate on the tight curves.
You could get the set, and just put it on a static display. Sometime in the future things might change, and you might be able to build a layout with greater radius curves. It sure looks like it will be a beautiful set, and a shame to pass up. I might be wrong, but I think that these MTH subway sets will only increase in value as time goes on. I don't feel the same way about their other trains.
Keep that 681 running, it was one of Lionel's best engines!
I'm sorry to hear that you feel "cheated". I would think that you would be elated that a large toy train manufacturer has heard the cries of us subway fans and has decided to support us with wonderful models! Mike Wolf and the folks in Columbia MD should be cheered, not jeered! Please read the earlier parts of this thread. MTH wanted to produce an accurate "near scale" version of an IND/BMT subway car, similar to what they will produce shortly in the Railking Line for the IRT (R-21 - which BTW WILL negotiate O-31). MTH has stated the minimum radius as O-42 conservatively. The cars, when produced, may well be able to get around O-31 curves, as other similar length O-gauge product does. I think that the issue is going to be the end hardware, not truck swing. You may be able to modify the cars to operate effectively on the tighter radius if they won't do it as they come from the box. It's really hard to please everybody, all the time. When MTH produced the R-42's as shortened cars to be able to negotiate O-27 curves, there were cries of damnation from those collectors/operators/modelers that wanted a SCALE length car. MTH design has been made aware of your and others concern regarding the minimum radius. As long as scale fidelity can be maintained (which is important as a Premier Line offering), I'm sure that they will make all attempts to accommodate their customers. If the cars won't make the O-31 when produced, and you don't want to go in for home mods, you could always add that combined Class I and subway line. When you tire of running your venerable Lionel 681, you can always claim that your transit division bought the line from the Class I when it went moribund. There is protypical precedence after all, The Dyre Avenue Line! Happy modeling and please keep the faith!
Frank, when I said cheated, it was by no means a criticism of MTH. It was MTH and the R-42s that convinced me to sell my 20+ year N gauge collection in favor of O scale. I meant cheated only to the extent that I would not be able to operate the R-32s on my layout. As for the R-21s, I've had mine on order for months now.
OK. BTW, the R-21's are going to be delayed slightly beyond the original ship date by a few months. The delays are related to MTH making sure that the cars are as accurate as possible. MTH design has finally approved the "test shots" of the body molds from their manufacturer in Korea, and production can now begin. Please be patient! I know that you like them when you get them! BTW, I'm sure that Pat Villani and the folks over at "Modeling the New York City Subway" (www.monmouth.com/~patv) would love to hear about your layout plans! Photos??!!
I'm sure they'll be worth waiting for and thanks for the tip about the short couplers too. BTW - amy plans for NYCT work equipment?
You can fix the space between the cars issue. Contact MTH and ask to order additional "short" couplers for these cars. You may be able to do this through your local hobby dealer also. Replace the long couplers on the No. 1 (motorman) ends of the NON POWERED cars ( a simple job), and you will have the look that you want. Good luck!
I assume you are inferring that the operating coupler on the front of the power car should not be converted?
Frank, with all of this proto-typical discussion going on regarding the forthcoming MTH R-32s, has anyone tackled the idea of O-scale H2C couplers? (Obviously, no air & electric connections, but just a working couple mechanism?) This would be the "icing on the cake" for those who want a true NYC subway car.
Any thoughts?
BMTman
With little scale cutting wrenches too???
Why certainly! I hope the side doors are functional and I can listen for the variable load valve as the doors close. Hey, I would like to see an R-17 roll down my hallway! I'd better put a trolley pole on it....
But that's a good question. How do you simulate and H2 Head in Miniature? Any ideas?
-Stef
After MTH simulates a H2 Head they will start work on modeling the BU cars complete with operating gates.
It will probably be a Premier model though and not Rail King!
Uh huh. I expect that the BU will be replete with Prototype Sounds. 1227 comes to mind, as a provider of realistic sounds. Van dorns?!?! Ha! See if you can hold the link pin between the cars as they come together!
-Stef
I don't think I will live long enough to see MTH ever do a model of the BU, although I wish they would.
That Van Dorn coupler was the reason I questioned how you coupled 1227 together with the R-9. I figured that the only way you could have done it would be to have a long piece of heavy chain!
I don't think the R-9 and 1227 have ever coupled together, but I'm sure a Van Dorn to H2 Head Adaptor is available at Branford. Anyway, 1227 spent a lot of time on the road with Manhattan El Car G, before G was shipped to NY.
-Stef
Have you ever had to chain two cars together at Branford just to move one of them?
We've never done 1227 and 1689 because of the coupler issue.
You'd need a Van Dorn to H2 adapter that also has tappet valves
installed to bring out the brake pipe and reservoir pipe to
gladhands.
We don't tow cars with chain. Bad idea. Too much slop and snap
action, and then you have a little problem when the trailing car
wants to overrun the tow car (such as on a grade). We use large
steel tow bars. Last year I towed your favorite car, 1349, which
is currently on shop trucks, into the shop with 3662 using an
H-Van Dorn adapter on 3662, which provides a hole to drop in the
pin for the tow bar.
Nothing much has been said about 1349 since it went in the shop.
Is it still brown on one side and green on the other?
That's because nothing has really been done on 1349 this year.
The main guy on that project had family and work obligations
this year and wasn't able to come down to the museum. He's
doing some work off-site on finishing the platform crown
beam. Once that's done we can complete the rebuilding of that
platform and move on to the trucks.
We'll I'll be.... Shoreline has one of the gate cars from the last Lex train. How about that? Say, Karl, you weren't on 1349 on that historic trip by chance, were you?
1349 was the lead car going to Bridge-Jay. I believe that all of the big wheels were on that car, people like the borough president etc. I was on one of the platforms in the middle of the train. 1349 was painted green so I'm sure that I rode it sometime or other. It was my goal to ride every car that was painted green when I was young.
No, MTH plans to use Lionel compatible knuckle couplers, which are the "standard" for O gauge. Quentin Carnecelli of Q-Car Co. has produced "dummy" H2C couplers in O scale, and they are quite detailed. A functional H2C, or any tightlock, for that matter would be very difficult to make work in O gauge, where coupler flexibility is needed to negotiate the tight curves (both horizontal as well as vertical).
MTH design personnel visited Jamaica yard to photograph and measure the prototype. MTH is commited to producing an accurate model of these cars. Please note that MTH will produce the cars in the "as-built" configuration witht the traditional rollsign and marker lights in the bonnet. They will NOT be "Cyclops".
Thank goodness!! I'm really looking forward to this set which sounds like a dream-come-true.
BMTman
I'm tempted to go for a set for static display. Wonder if the side signs will be backlit in green....:-)
I looked closely at the drawings in the PDF file I downloaded. It appeared to show only one-half of the pantograph gates between the cars (.i.e, only the right-side gate).
Of course, they could always use the longer couplers to create a non-scale clearance between the cars. This would give some room for the fully extended gates. (I'm wondering what they will use on their upcoming R-21 sets.)
I once spoke to Quentin Carnicelli of Q-Car concerning the use of the gates on their scale R-17 models. He said they sell two versions: a fully extended gate for the front and rear of a train, and a "compressed" version, which can be used inbetween cars.
On my MTH R-42 set, I created my own polystyrene pantographs for the first and last car of the train; I used very thin insulated wire to recreate the "baloney chains" that connect them. (That also worked for the chains over the storm door.)
Train Dude
I will see the MTH people next week at the TCA York Meet and will ask them some of the questions you are bring up.If others have questions about the R-32 cars, please post and I will ask MTH,and post answers after the train meet.
Have Fun,
Ron J.
Gents, Ladies.....
Breaking news from London this monday afternnon, the new Mayor of London has just appointed a "Tube Commisioner" as part of the Transport for London (TfL) scheme. Guess who has got the job...??
A certain Mr Robert Kiley
who the British Press are saying "made New Yorks subway what it is today".......( This guy ex NYCTA subways then! )
Salary..
Ł 250,000 + Bonus
comments guys/girls! most welcome.......
Kiley was MTA chairman. He was Boston's MBTA's chief prior to comming to NYC.
The MTA is an umbrella funding agency for cummuter rail, suburban bus and city subways and buses. The MTA has no operating arm. Kiley appointed David Gunn as head of NYCT (TA) to operate the city subways and buses.
The NY's MTA chairman is usually chosen for his political or financial acumen. If London needed an operations person, they have chosen the wrong person and the Ł 250,000 has gone down the tubes.
They should have chosen David Gunn !!!! He's the best.
I could have had that job if they had offered it to me, salary is abit low though. I hope Mr Kiley is goimg to bring with him some old Redbirds to run on the District Line. Just think in year or so all the upholstered seats could be gone along with travel cards, one person operation and guards could be back. If he had been appointed last year perhaps a few 59's would still be around:)
Simon
Swindon UK
There is an article all about the successes of Mr KIley in this evenings Evening Standard www.thisislondon.com.
It should certainly enertain you all
Simon
Swindon UK
Well Simon, I didn't see the job advertised!
The thing we need to find out is if this guy is an Operations man or just a corporate big-wig!
On my shopping list for things to do would be:
1) appolish Travelcartd zones and introduce flat fares and 'metrocard'
type fare structure.
2) Link the East London Line at its Northern and Southern terminus
(lets be honest only a set of points (switches!) needed!
3) Re-open Aldwych Branch by making it an extension from the Doclands
Light Railway terminus at Bank
4) Introduce more Transport Police who deter crime rather than respond
to it at present
5) Outrage- close the circle line and allow the Hammersmith & City and
District Line to operate more frequent
6) And lastly , totally out of the commisioners control, introduce
Snapple vendors at all stations!
Regards
Rob :^)
A bit off-topic, but:
What's this I hear about Wembley Stadium being demolished and replaced? I played there in 1978 with my college marching band at a football (soccer) game, and we were treated to tea afterwards.
I am afraid so. The twin towers will soon be gone. It is a hallowed place for soccer fans all around the world.
It is quite old now and it is time for a new national stadium but I wish the towers could be kept.
It was quite sad that the last game played was between England and Germany in a world cup qualifier. Guess what, England lost, the team coach resigned, what a sad end to a sports legend.
Simon
Swindon UK
For a time, there was an NFL exhibition game there every summer, the London Bowl IIRC. Our own Denver Broncos played there in 1987. Whenever I would watch an event from Wembley on TV, I couldn't help but think I was there once.
When are you coming over again ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Don't know for sure (thanks for asking), but I definitely want to ride on the original 1863 Underground stretch. I can't believe I didn't think enough to do so back then.
Rob, with regard to point No 6 this may happen sooner than you think as Cadbury Schweppes (British company) have just aquired Snapple.
Simon
Swindon UK
The British know their tea, but do they know Americanized bottle tea? I stopped drinking Snapple because w/o carbonation I would just inhale the stuff and at .$85-1.00 per 16oz bottle it was too much money.
Snapple is just being introduced over here and is normally priced at around Ł1.25 or $1.75. its a good drink that comes in a 500ml bottle. most drinks here are sold as 330ml.
Simon
Swindon UK
Snapple and other Tea's are one of the last US beverages to come in a 16 oz. glass bottle. Since 1990 mostly all sodas come in either 12oz cans, 20 oz bottles, 24oz bottle and then 1/2 liter. The 16oz soda is a thing of the past. In supermarkets a 16oz Snapple will cost about the same as a 20oz soda. A good price is .85 cents in a supermarket or 1.10 in a convienence store.
Wish it was that price over here.
Simon
Swindon UK
That's one thing I've noticed about going to Britain and the rest of Europe, the prices for soft drinks are through the roof.
"Link the East London Line at its Northern and Southern terminus
(lets be honest only a set of points (switches!) needed! "
What do you mean by that? Link it to what??
North to Highbury and Islington via the ROW of the disused North London Line from Broad Street to Dalston. South from New Cross Gate to Croydon via Forest Hill sharing track/stations with Connex South Central (or Southern Railway Central Division as it was once known). Also, south west from Surrey Quays, a short new link of track, and then via Connex South Central to Streatham and Wimbledon. Shoreditch station would be closed, and service withdrawn from New Cross.
In fairness, this would require more than a couple of points, unless LT is going either to use dual mode 3/4th rail current collection rolling stock, or remove the 4th rail from the East London Line, which might be a very sensible thing to do.
This is most likely to be the next Underground extension project, along with Croxley to Watford Junction (Watford station would close). Based upon current timescales, I predict both of the above in place around 2010, and the Chelsea-Hackney Line finally completed 2020.
If you visit the southern terminus of either New Cross or New Cross Gate, both stations are just cross platform distances away from 'main lines' from London Bridge so engineering wise, little infrastructure work needs to be carried out to connect these branches.
At the Northern end,the rush hour only terminus at Shoreditch is also only about 400 yards away from the up/down electric lines from Liverpool Street, again no great infrastructure needed.
Going back in history all three connections use to be railway 'rights of way'.
So in direct answer to your question a cross London route is just waiting to be connected, all sorts of possibilities then exist, mainly Liverpool Street to East Croydon via New Cross Gate.
As fellow countryman Max Roberts has pointed out in the "NEW LT PROJECTS thread" the only big hurdle is work to adapt the 4th rail current system to 3rd rail, this is nothing big as the Bakerloo Line north of Queens Park,District Line Richmond-Gunnersbury and also Wimbledon Park-Southfields has a mix of 3rd and 4th rail operation.
Regards
Rob :^)
An article about Robert Kiley being hired to fix the London Underground appears in Tuesday's NY Times. He was originally contacted as a reference for another candidate for the position.
So a comment by one rider yesterday on a Web site devoted to criticizing the subways — www.tubehell.com — might be taken as representative of the feeling about Mr. Kiley's imminent arrival: "Sounds promising. He certainly can't make things any worse."
I see the British have imported something akin to the Straphangers campaign. That'll fix things.
According to Newsday (the Long Island Newspaper), Mr. Kiley will receive up to $750,000 per year during his 4 year contract. Of course, the full amount is tied to improvement of the London Transport system. It was reported for comparison that the Mayor of London receives $125,000 per year.
10/09/2000
The Budd Company is well known for superior manufacturing of stainless steel railroad coaches and a some famous subway cars. Did Budd have any inklings to dabble in the production of PCC cars ? If they did, they would have been as durable as the R-32's or the "Almond Joys".
Bill "Newkirk"
I would like to know on when SEPTA plans to restore the Route 15 Girard Av light rail service & when work will begin.
When service is restored, will Kawaski or PCC cars be used on Route 15 & since now there are plans to close the Callowhill Depot & replace it with a brand new depot on the same site as it was mentioned in SEPTA's 10 year plan. Will Elmwood Depot be used for Route 15, will the PCC be maintained there (if PCC are used on Route 15) & where are the PCC stored right now.
The work has begun but it won't be completed until late next year or early '02. A separate posting covers the issue of rolling stock, which may result in a delayed re-opening of the line.
The line revitalization work included a hefty amount to rehab Callowhill for the cars for the service. Route 10 would also return to the depot under this scenario. Callowhill would be an operating base but not one for car maintenance, which would still be handled at Elmwood or Woodland depending on the extent of need per car. The main issue would be the basing of cars and operators at Callowhill to reduce the extreme amount of deadheading to get cars into and out of service (although with 10 the cars usually operate into and out of Center City as revenue runs on 11 or 36, but this is nearly impossible with 15).
A recent related happening is SEPTA's desire to move operations out of Callowhill, which is in SEPTA's current capital budget. Other options are being explored, the most attractive being a site near Belmont and Parkside Avenues. This is very preliminary and there is no answer on whether rail operations would go to the new site, since the main concern is the removal of buses from a very residential area which is constrained on all sides and allows no room for expansion. Whether rail would stay at Callowhill or move to a new site (or even revert back to Elmwood, although there are capacity constraints there too) have yet to be considered.
Is there a Senate race in New Jersey or was it basicly desided in our June 7th "we don't care about the presidental nominee" primary election when Corsine spent 36 million dollars to beat out the unfairly maligned Florio. With the sheer quanity of TV ads most New Jersians assumed the election was already held.
Pennsylvania Democrats took a statewide poll in June to see how Ron Klink was doing, and most of the Democrats in the Philly area said they would vote for Corzine.
Never overestimate the intelligence of the electorate!
When it comes to New York I never underestimate the voters lack of smarts. They, in a gem of a lack of pride, will probably send a carpetbagger to the Senate.
We're not talking about New York. Pay attention!
I'm talking about New York. You pay attention. You are probably going to send a carpetbagging non-New Yorker to the Senate, and that smacks of a lack of pride. It also sucks.
Dude, don't blame them. Every single commercial break from like May to June had at least 1 Corzine ad. You can see how effective TV ads are. BTW you didn't answer my question. I haven't heard any news about an actual race with another party. I think ppl just assumed Corzine won the election.
There is a Republican running against Corzine. He expected to get a windfall of soft money when the NY candidates swore off, but I read that the GOP is running soft money ads in NY in spite of the agreement.
His name is Bob Franks, and he is a congressman from somewere in NJ.
What does any of this have to do with rail transit, particularly in New York City?
David
Well, if Corzine wanted to, he could pretty much bankroll PATH out of his own pocket for the next decade or so :-)
Well I just recieved my Meriden to Philly Amtrak ticket via the mail. Prices are down again and it only cost me $37.50 with a student discount. In the mailer the ticket comes in a little holder/info booklet and this booklet contains no less than 4 ads/ I have to applaud Amtrak's ability to turn anything into a revenue generator. I also have noticed that whenever I buy my ticket with a credit card, my credit card number is on both the Conductors part of the ticket and the coupon. Its not very secure to have your CC# on a very loosable item or on something a devious conductor can swipe the number from. Everyone who travels Amtrak should be aware that their ticket stubs contain their CC# and should be careful in disposing of them.
Only the conductor part has the CC# number, but still be careful.
The passengers with credit card tickets are asked to sign the conductor's portion to validate the charge to the account.
Ive NEVER been asked to do this.....
The passengers with credit card tickets are asked to sign the conductor's portion to validate the charge to the account. (chuchubob)
Ive NEVER been asked to do this..... (Lou)
Amplification: This is for tickets charged by phone or internet. It was done on both trains that I rode in August between Philly and Washington.
Bob
I've never been asked to sign them either, and I've purchased all of my tickets via the Amtrak website for the last several years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They normally don't care. However, there have been times when the conductor insisted that I sign the ticket before collecting it.
I only have to sign them when I pick up a pre-paid ticket or buy one on site w/ a credit card.
It's not just train tickets. Airline tickets sold through the ARC (Airline Reporting Corporation) have full credit card numbers on them -- the portion retained by the agent when you board the flight. There's no way around this. Caveat emptor choo choo.
Guys,
Every time you use your credit card, the merchant keeps a copy of the receipt. Usually this includes your name and card number. [Some have begun blotting out part of the number on the receipt, but this usually only occurs with ATM receipts.] Any unscrupulous sales clerk could easily ascertain your number, or it could be misplaced, in which case anyone could pick it up. What is not on the receipt is the card's expiration date. When you place telephone and/or online orders, the merchant also asks for the expiration date of the credit card as a security measure, so theroetically no one can use your card without either the actual card or the number AND expiration date.
OTOH, this reminds me: My bank just converted my bankcard to a mastercard debit card, unilaterally. IOW, I had no choice in the matter. I called them up, explaining that I did not want this. I said that having the mastercard logo on my card would allow a thief to deplete my checking account while using my card like a mastercard, i.e. not having to type the PIN. Their response was basically, "Tough s**t," and that the signature on the back of the card would protect me. Now, how many times has a clerk checked your signature against the card or your driver's license? This seldom happens for me. I don't know about you, but should something that catastrophic happen, I am certain my bank would take ages to go through all of the red tape to finally return my money should it have been stolen via debit card fraud. In the meantime, my rent does not get paid and I don't eat.
This just proves that it's a crap-shoot every time you give out personal information. Orwell was only off by a few years. The only thing you can do is pray you're not the next victim. All our asses, and, in fact most of are assets, are just hanging out there.
Good luck.
Pete,
Debit cards are covered under the same rules as credit cards - if you PROMPTLY report the theft, you are only responsible for the first $50.
Life is, of course, a series of trade-offs. Due care is always needed in financial transactions. And I wouldn't worry too much about the merchants. They are in the same boat you are.
Incidentally, debit cards (ATM cards with Visa/Mastercard logo) carry different serial numbers than regular credit cards.
I just LOVE my Visa debit card [from my checking...] has made life SO much easier....Especially since my bank doesn't charge for trannies made when you select the 'credit' option when you swipe it - i.e., using it as a CREDIT CARD as opposed an ATM card...yes..I know its confusing...that only means when you use it as a credit card [at the grocery store,for ex...]you CAN'T get cash back...big deal...
With debit cards you don't collect the extra 30+ days of interest you would with a credit card. Time is money and all those few cents add up.
>>> .that only means when you use it as a credit card [at the grocery store,for ex...]you CAN'T get cash back <<<
Your grocery stores are more conservative than those here in L.A. Most will give cash back up to $20.00 over the purchase with credit cards.
Tom
The standard MC/Visa retail merchant agreement forbids giving customers currency for logo instrument credit transactions. This is partly due to differences in how "goods/services" and "cash advance" transactions are processed. For ATM/debit, a merchant must also have a separate authorization from their depository institution permitting them to give out cash (fraud/loss prevention).
Unless a merchant is specifically authorized to hand out cash, they risk a substantial penalty from MC & Visa. They can also be dropped as participating merchants.
>>> The standard MC/Visa retail merchant agreement forbids giving customers currency for logo instrument credit transactions <<<
I don't know whether the supermarkets out here have made a special deal with MC/Visa, or they are doing it on their own, but they will give cash at the transaction in Southern California. It does not show up as cash advance, but just a higher charge. It is limited to about $20.00 because the merchant is paying the credit card company its discount fee on this money.
Tom
You mean grocery stores in NYC don't have debit terminals? In Baltimore (and DC) the conversion from Food Stamps to the "Independence Card" meant that all the grocery chains in Maryland were wired for the IC's, whereupon the local bank interconnect (MOST at the time) gave the stores debit access as well. Then VISA, MASTERCARD, DISCOVER and AMEX all hooked up too. Even the 7-11's and Mom & Pop's are hooked up too.
And, with an ATM card, cash back over the purchase total is always an option, and the stores don't charge for the privledge.
Having a ATM card that's also a Debit Card is great when it's time to renew the Monthly Pass.
Debit cards are covered under the same rules as credit cards - if you PROMPTLY report the theft, you are only responsible for the first $50.
Sure, but it's a matter of timing. When do I get the money back? If a thief has mastercarded most of my money out of my checking account, I'm certain the bank won't replace it the next day! C'mon, it's a bank. I asked the CSR, "How long will it take for the money to be repalaced it it's stolen?" She had no answer. I work in a bank, and I know how much red tape there is. It makes government bureaucracy look good by comparison. I know I could switch banks and go with a smaller one, but I doubt their security and customer service would be much better, and my access to my money is limited and more expensive.
But getting back to Amtrak, I have often been asked by the conductor to sign my ticket purchased with a credit card.
Most institutions have daily limits for "cash" and "purchases" on debit cards to prevent "cleanouts" (as well as helping the clueless who try to use the cards for a large-dollar transactions, not realizing the money is reserved immediately). Many will let customers select lower limits if they are concerned about larger amounts being available.
For those who are exceptionally paranoid, they should get a separate "household" account strictly for purchases and avoid using their "main" account's card for any retail transaction.
Of course, the simplest yet most routinely ignored thing consumers can do to protect themselves it to read their card agreements. All of them disclose the parties' responsibilities, liability, and procedures for issue resolution. These can vary greatly from bank to bank. Some banks completely wash their hands of any problems with logo transactions and leave it to the customer to take it up with the logo company; others are very proactive and will assume the role of liaison.
Good old common sense is really the best protection...if something seems fishy about a merchant, just don't give them your card and/or take your business elsewhere. I don't give much thought to using my debit card for refilling my SmarTrip, because should a discrepancy arise I feel I can trust Metro to rectify it. OTOH, I would never use a debit card at any merchant I know nothing about -- I would only use a credit card there if I decided I simply have to complete that transaction.
New York Cancer Project MetroCards will go on sale at 7am on10/16/2000.
There will be two different versions.
One will feature "African-American Baby" and the other "Chinese Baby"
As usual:
1- A booth may not get the card even thought hey are on the list.
2- Go to the full-time main booth at the station
3- A station may have the cards even though they are not on the list due to supervision transferring fare cards to that booth.
Here is the list- stations are not grouped.
AFRICAN AMERICAN BABY
155-D
145-B,C
116-B,C
145-1,9
137-1,9
125-1,9
148-3
145-3
135-2,3
125-2,3
116-6
110-6
103-6
96--6
CHINESE BABY
Canal-A,C,E
Grand (Manhattan) -B,D
Elmhurst-G,R
Grand (QUEENS)G,R
2nd Av- F
Delancey-F,J,M
E Broadway-F
N Blvd- G,R
65-G,R
Woodhaven- G,R ONLY
Prince- N,R
Canal- N,R,6
90-7
61-7
52-7
On the Brooklyn A I saw a strange sign in the tunnel. It reads:
LU
1
(others have read LU2 through LU5.) What does this mean?
These signs designate where the 1st car of a train being Layed-Up [stored] should be spotted. They'll lay up trains underground during a cold weather plan, for instance.There are also tracks underground where trains are layed up every night, such as D4 track on the Queens Blvd. line at 169th St., Parsons Blvd., and Kew Gardens. You'll see those signs there as well.
Speaking of strange signs:
I've noticed mileage signs here and there, and I wonder what starting point they refer to.
For instance, there's one of the 7 line that says (I think) "MILE 15". Now the whole 7 line isn't that long!
Is this a holdover to the time when the 2nd Ave El ran on the Corona (Flushing) IRT?
Andrew
Perhaps "15 Miles"? They indicate the speed restriction. See the section on this site regarding timer signals.
Now, I've got a weird one for you - on the E, heading toward the WTC, there are signs on the wall between 5th and 7th Aves (I'm pretty sure it's there and not Lex and 5th) that say "DO NOT TOUCH". Any ideas?
It probably said "15 MILES," referring to the speed limit. The only place I'm aware of that you'll find distances is in the chaining codes, which are posted on the number plates of signals. Those are given in hundreds of feet to (or from) zero.
Mark
What about those signs that say for example:
C2
8.5
There are a couple of signs similar to this at the 74th Street station on the 7 line, and numerous others spread throughout the system.
On Saturday Night Live this past Saturday there was a mock commercial for something, and it took place on an R-44 at Hoyt Schermerhorn.
I love those mock commercials. Remember the Amazin Lazer, or when they got Sam Waterston to hock Old Glory insurance to protect older people from robot attack. How did they ever get him to do that? What was this mock add for? Maybe something that zapps the door holders.
The commercial had a bunch of kids rapping (badly) about some ridiculous product, the commercial could have just as easily taken place almost anywhere else, but I'll bet the director had recently ridden an A train after schools let out and got an inspiration.
Yup, I had a feeling. I saw SNL this weekend and that sure looked like an R44.
According to a short blurb in Monday's Philly Inquirer, a car was rear-ended and pushed into the path of a CSX freight train at a grade crossing in Edison Saturday night. The 78-year-old passenger was killed; his 59-year-old wife fled the car before impact. The driver of the offending car was charged with careless driving and driving without insurance. Edison police and Middlesex County prosecutor's office are investigating.
I've seen conflicting information on this. When the operator releases the controller, does the deadman put the train into emergency, let the train coast to a stop, or do something in between? Does it depend on the position the controller was in when it was released? Does it vary between controller types or car classes?
Thanks,
Mark
I can't imagine what sort of conflicting information might be
circulating, unless it refers to cars other than those currently
running on the NYC transit system.
If the deadman is released, the brakes are applied in emergency
and the motors shut off, unless the brakes were already appied
at full service.
So the t/o can do this:
Put handle in full service, release deadman, stratch, disengage deadman, release brakes and proceed as normal?
Exactly like that. Although I've never seen anyone stratch before. Is that what you do when you get an itch while you're stretching?
I've seen a guy do exactly that, without the scratch.
A practice of T/O's is having the train in full service and letting go of the controller as they reach the car stop marker. People do see this, and the train is moving with the deadman switch "released" could be confusing...
Some T/O's have the train moving quite fast when doing this, I've observed.
Yes, a very, very sloppy practice. A lot of train operators
have no idea what it's like to operate "a real train" where
pulling that and stopping with a full service brake would
put everyone on the floor.
I've seen LIRR and MN crews do it on the M series cars before.
Most of the operators out there are new on the job and never had the misfortune of operating trains with cast iron brake shoes and heavy dynamic over inshot. The thing I really don't understand is why the folks at PATH do this all the time too. Those retired K cars and the PA 1 to PA 4s stop great. They don't even try to smooth down their stops.
It seems that the PATH trains stop hard all the time. Also very few cars who lost their dynamic brakes. Can't hear the dynamics hum either.
"Misfortune" ???
Come on, I know you'd rather run a 10 car set of R-10s, flats
and all, than a train of s**tc*ns
As far as the PATH is concerned, I always hear the "pssst" from the pilot valve before the train comes to a complete stop. The engineers almost never bleed down the SAP at the stop markers. The misfortune I was referring to comes to point that nothing was uniform back in the days. Some pilot valves would dump the brake pipe at 82, some would not. Since everything and everything was on their last legs when I came out, no train stopped the same as another. For example, the R44s that had the Pwire replaced initially had fair dynamic but very long brakes upon brake cylinder application. The R10s were overall great braking but I never found one that accelerated uniformly to another. I guess most of the other operators had trouble with them too as there was an RTO bulletin in 1988 mandating that the controller be put into the coast position for at least 2 seconds before applying the valve for an application. There was a Halon fire extinguisher R30 WH train (1989), an elevator door R44 (1992), R36s with exterior guard lights, some piece of junk R44 with a digital sign on the end and the R46 cars that if you set the side signs to number 12, all the side signs would roll all the way to the end. I'm sure by the time I post this, I will have left out half my career. Oh, well, I guess I was fortunate after all to make it through this. New RTO personel don't have a clue what a skate key or fuse puller is. Newer ones may not get a doorcheck after the next few years. At least I didn't have to bang in jumpers with the hammerhead on a Hi-V.
Can you imagine doing that on a southbound train of R-10s screaming down the incline just before 42nd St?
The passengers would be at 34th street before the train would !!
Yep, like on the redbirds. The ones on the 7 are similar. Even though they been modified full service on a redbird is pretty harsh.
The T/Os on that line as I seen do modify the pressure as the train stops ending up with the handle in min. brake.
I been on a redbird that went into BIE and people almost ended up on the floor, lucky for them we were pulling out of the station going 10 MPH. I don't know about the rest of the fleet.
Putting one of those thing in full service and releasing the deadman at a stop must really hurt.
Hello, New Yorkers, greetings from the land of Tea and Cucumber Sandwiches . . . .
I've been reading this board off and on for a while but something's cropped up and so I'm posting for the first time now.
It's like this: Robert Kiley, 63, has been appointed by our new mayor to sort out London's Public Transport systems. Apparently he has a history of success in NY so my question is: What did he do for you, if anything, and what can we expect?
Ok, have now seen and read the 'Newsflash from over here' thread, which kinda answers my broad question but I'm still interested in personal viewpoints/reminiscences from people who were there . . . .
The MTA used to publish a subway & bus guide BOOK back in the late 1970's which was in soft cover and was about 100 pages long.
What I am looking for is the title of the book which had in the title in large letters "New York" in blue, white and red combination letters.
Or even better, if you have or know someone who has a copy of this guide book and is willing to sell it, please e-mail me the details and maybe we could conduct a little business(of course a finders fee would be given).
This would be really important to me as I used to have one of these books as a child(I actually had 3 of them at different times) and I would love to have one again to preserve. But even just the title of the book would be a huge help in helping me finally finding it!
Thanks everyone!
the zman
as always, heypaul to the rescue....
the title is "seeing new york: the official mta travel guide"
it was published in 1976 by the mta and the library of congress number 75-18834
on the front cover it also has a number of 445-08407-295
it has 240 pages
i have an old worn copy, but i have 2 suggestions for maybe finding it
the writer/editor was john tauranac, who worked for the mta, and who has also authored several books on new york city and the empire state building... he has also given walking tours of grand central station sponsored by the municipal arts society... the municipal arts society might be one place to try to reach him
second possibility is arnold joseph, who sells books and other memorabilia at the monthly era meetings in new york city... aside from providing bmt man with all kinds of exotic maps of the transit system, he frequently has old maps and magazines and a full line of my subtalk posts... i don't have his number, but i'm sure doug "malbone street disaster" diamond will provide you with it...
Arnold B. Joseph
1140 Broadway (Room 701)
NYC, NY 10001
(212) 532-0019
By Appointment Only
(from his business card)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i'm listening to wnyc am radio right now, and john tauranac is on the program... he just pubished a new guide to manhattan titled "manhattan, block by block"... it is a block by block guide book to manhattan with bus and subway maps... it sounds interesting... it was just published in august by tauranac maps...
Does it have a parking regulations map?
Yesterday while riding the Bx12 bus over the university heights bridge, I saw the R110B laid up in the 207 street yard. What's going on with this train?
The R110B cars call the 207 Street Yard home. It makes one or two round trips between 168 and Euclid every weekday. Cars 3001 through 3006 make up the consist. Cars 3007 through 3009 are used for parts. If you saw it, it may have been taking Columbus Day off! :-)
I believe the trains were on a Saturday schedule and the R110B doesn't run on Saturdays.
Nope, NYCT buses and subways were on a regular weekday schedule.......
3TM
Oh well. Down here in DC we were on Saturday Supplemental which is the stupidest thing since it means Saturday service even though a fair amount of people still have work and school. They do it on Veterans Day which is ridiculous. Last year, I spent hours getting home fron school because of Saturday Schedules on Veterans Day and a water main break on Wisconsin Avenue which backed up traffic in every way. I was in T-shirt and shorts and hadn't changed since I was rushing for the bus and got to wait for the single bus on Ride-On route 23 which in the end, never came (I took the T2 about 3 blocks but it took 15 minutes do make it that far so I got off and walked home). In the time I waited at Friendship Heights, I could have walked home and back to the Metro.
Moral of the story: Transit should be on a weekday schedule Veterans and Columbus Days.
Up here it is (commuter rail as well). And I don't have school on either day :·)
On President's day they run Saturday schedule, except for the Pascack line, which runs 1 or 2 trips inbound in the AM and 1 or 2 outbound in the PM (If they ran Saturday schedule, there would be no service!)
But this year, it was a combo holiday of Yom Kippur AND Columbus Day, and passenger loading was rather light all day. Here in New York, these holidays seperately jutifies a daily schedule, but for this year a Saturday schedule would have sufficed. But these are not paid holidays for NYCT workers. So those who would request off would request to get paid out of their AVA (saved holiday) bank if a Saturday schedule would have been operated since less personell would have been needed.
I noticed this car in the Corona Yard, near the LIRR tracks. It is painted like a redbird, and is all by itself.
I was able to look at it from the road that squeezes between the LIRR tracks and the tennis stadium and take some pictures. Here's what I noticed:
• The number plate on the east side of the car just has a "93__" on it and the black bar with purple diamond under it.
• The number plate on the west side of the car has a "_306" on it.
The car looks like an R22, therefore it couldn't be 9306. It's in the wrong place anyway. AFAIK, 9306 is in the TM. It has cabs, end signs and marker lights on both ends. My hypothesis is that this car could have been 7306, the only number that would make sense, since the number plate on the west side of the car has _306, with one number missing (the underscores represent missing numbers). Can anyone give me some background on this car?
Well, as it is explained to me, 9306 is still considered to be on the active roster even though it resides in the Transit Museum. Apparently, 9306 was being used for filming at the Transit Museum one day for a commercial in the 70s where it assumed it's position at the end of the platform and could not be moved with other cars in the way. It wound up staying on as a Museum Piece. As for the one at Corona, it is an R-21/22 used as some kind of locker car for storage. I forget, but I wonder if it is used as a School Car?
-Stef
No, School Car in Corona Yard is the white trailer near the garbage platform.
The Mystery car at corona yard is none other than R21 # 7261. I remember seeing her before she was repainted red. The -306 is a joke. They wanted that car to be #d 9306. Thats what you were seeing. its been cannabalized severely. I saw this car when she wore yellow around 4 maybe 5 years ago. I hope this helps.
Thanks Tom!
-Stef
Are these cars visible from the walkway to the park? I plan on going out to Flushing Meadow Park during my visit and want to take some pictures of Corona Yard from the walkway. Not to mention the Unisphere.
The "Mystery Car" I referred to (R21 #7261) is visible from the area on the walkway directly above the Long Island Railroad tracks. To get a better view of it, you need to take a set of stairs that is at the extreme right beyond the stairs to tracks 5-6 as you walk towards the park. At the bottom of the stairs, walk in the direction of the tennis stadium, along a road that goes between the stadium and the LIRR tracks. You should be able to see it across the LIRR tracks by the time you reach the shack on the grassy side of the road.
D9306? Tht's odd.
I wonder why it's not listed in the list of preserved cars.
This happened to me Monday night at 10:25pm leaving CI bound from Prospect Park. We leave the station with the Conductor (C/O) (who could barely be understood in his version of English) stating Parkside was the next stop.
We leave Prospect Park and stop, the T/O (Train Operator)is getting the Green over Green lineup for the express track. Our T/O is trying to reach DeKalb Tower to question the lineup while the C/O is saying "signals are against us, have patience, Parkside Next".
As I have experienced before from the exact location Dekalb is not answering. Now publicly there is a G.O. (General Order, an order the changes the regular scheduled service) for the Brighton line starting at 11pm that has trains running express from Prospect Park. It is not anywhere near 11pm yet.
Our non-english speakig C/O is still telling us we will be moving shortly, Parkside next, when a new voice with authority comes over the PA "TRAIN OPERATOR ACCEPT THAT LINEUP PER G.O. 335 (some number I don't remember) THAT IS A VALID LINEUP"
Our T/O "Uhhh ohh ahh RIGHT, Thank you, EXPRESS STOPS EXPRESS STOPS"
Our English challanged C/O gets with the program and "CHURCH AVE NEXT, EXPRESS STOPS" which sounded more like "Urh next, pess Ops"
So I can only ASSUME that this voice of reason was some TSS (or BMT Man breaking into a cab). I also wondering if the REAL G.O. (not the red and white signs the public see) state which train the order starts with or would they have different start times then the public "flyer"??
Just wondering, oh and that conductor needs some serious speach threapy. A lot of people in the car with me gave each other strange looks about the sounds coming from the speaker..."Ewwirk, Ings Next, issed stop ansfer D ther atfort".
That could be a bad PA - I've heard many cases of the PA cutting in and out. But it's certainly possible that your conductor really talks like that. I had one on the E a few years ago who announced: "Tis A brain due Queens". That announcement actually got people to get off the train at 42nd because they thought it was an A, despite the signs.
Not a bad PA, the voice was clear and full words but with a HEAVY HEAVY accent hard to "type" in my message. Brought back memory of the SNL (Saturday Night Live) skit about the speakers...
Or perhaps the Monty Python skit about the three guys who only say beginnings, middles, and ends of words respectively.:-)
G.O.s that cause service reroutes usually come with a supplement schedule that shows which trains will be affected by the GO. It sounds like nobody told this crew (and that they neglected to ask) that there was a GO running that night, and they got caught by surprise.
Thanks Alex, I couldn't see what the punch was and I still don't know where that "voice" came from but it was a 1/2 hour before the public published G.O. start time. Not that I'm upset, I get of at the Highway.
Your "voice of reason" was probably a stunning coincidence. Just as someone on the crew pushed the PA button, either Control or DeKalb Tower called over the radio with that message and you heard the radio broadcast over the PA.
Yah that could explain it, it was DeKalb over the raido over the PA, well it got us moving.
I agree with your point about 11 PM, but that means that the tracks must be cleared of all trains by 11 PM so RTO can give up the track to the people doing the work.
Announcements on the 7 have got to be the worst to understand.
Just to let you know Lou that the abbreviation for a conductor is C/R.
A C/O is a corrections officer(and you can keep THAT job).
I'm keyboardaly challanged, thanks for the pointer.
Did the Giants or Dodgers move first? Were they one or to years apart. When and who waz the last two opponents in the last subway series?
avid
Both teams skipped town following the 1957 season. The popular story is that the Dodgers wanted a new domed stadium downtown, which they would pay for; however, they needed the city to provide the land (I believe the proposed site was the LIRR's Atlantic Terminal) and the permission of Robert Moses. Moses, of course, favored a stadium right where Shea sits. The Dodgers then convinced the Giants to come along for the ride west. As they had their own stadium issues, they were hesitant at first, but eventually decided to skip town as well. The last real 'Subway Series' was in 1956, and the Dodgers lost to the Yankees. Of course, in 1955, the Dodgers won their only World Series in Brooklyn, beating the Yankees.
An interesting aside-the pennant in LA that celebrates the 1955 Dodger team is a phony. The original, which was stolen, was turned in to the Brooklyn Boro President in the early 90's. It flies over Boro Hall, and as per Howard Golden, will be returned to 'dem Bums when they return to Brooklyn.
-Hank
Hank , I ask you . Could the 1989 series between the SF Giants and the Oakland A's be consideded a subway series. They have BART. I just don't know if Bart even comes close to either Ball park? Maybe a bus series.
avid
You could call it that, but they preferred 'Battle of the Bay' or 'Bay Series' since they were 2 cities across the bay from each other. This is also the only WS that had a multi-day delay (19 days IIRC) due to the Loma Prieta earthquake.
-Hank
BART goes right past the Oakland Coliseum, but got nowhere near Candlestick Park. Now with the Giants Pac Bell, it would be a little easier for the teams to have a true subway series, so long as the fans in S.F. don't mind a bit of a walk (about like from the No. 7 train at Times Square to the site Rudy wants to put the new stadium at, south of the Javits Center)
"Moses, of course, favored a stadium right where Shea sits."
Hold on a minute, Robert Moses -- the man who hated trains* and showed it** -- actually wanted to locate a public works project convenient to existing rail transit?
*he said so in his autobiography
**no provision for trains on the Narrows Bridge, etc., etc.
No, he wanted to build it as part of his proposed park for the World's Fair, and easily accessible from the Whitestone and Grand Central Parkways, Van Wyck and Long Island Expressways.
Also proposed expressway along Northern Blvd.
-Hank
**no provision for trains on the Narrows Bridge, etc., etc.
In order to make the grades negotiable for trains, the ramps for the Verrazano Bridge would have to be MUCH longer, and that's not practical for a borough that's relatively sparsely settled even now.
Why does sparse settlement make long ramps impractical?
I believe 'sparse' is NOT the word little piggy meant to use. Bay Ridge is densely settled, and has been for years.
-Hank
I know Bay Ridge has been densely populated for decades. I lived there over 45 years ago. While I don't remember it, my parents have told me that they were afraid "they" were going to knock down the apartment house to make room for the bridge approaches.
It's not practical to make long ramps to offer subway service to Staten Island. That's the sparsely settled borough.
Don't forget this year's "Bus-subway-ferry-anutha bus" series between the Queens Kings and SI Yankees! Or should that just be called the Interstate 278 series?
Which other cities have the potential if not the talent for a "subway series?
Once upon a time Philly and Boston could . But the A's and braves moved. Iguess L.A. could . I know I'm missing someplace?
avid
St. Louis had the Cardinals and Browns until 1954 (now the Baltimore Orioles). Chicago. That's it. Washington had 2 clubs, both the Senators, but both were AL teams, and both existed at different times.
-Hank
And the kicker is, both Wrigley Field and Comiskey Park are served by the Red Line! In the olden days, the #22 Clark-Wentworth streetcar route served both parks.
Techincally, San Francisco also has two teams if you count the A's in Oakland. That would be a BART series.
Which did happen in 1989 (and could have happened again this year, mutter grumble). Candlestick Park isn't anywhere near BART, but the new Pac Bell Stadium that opened this season is within walking distance of the Embarcadero station, so if both Bay Area teams had gone all the way, it would indeed have been a BART series.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Wasn't the 1989 World Series called the Bay Area Series? Or Earthquake Series, perhaps?
The local press initially dubbed it the "Bay Bridge Series"; "Earthquake Series" was first heard around the time play resumed a week or so after that little seismic rhubarb.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
They called it the 'Battle of the Bay' Even had a logo.
-Hank
Of course, calling anything in St. Louis a subway series would be giving a lot of credit to the short stretch of subway that Illinois Terminal used to reach their St. Louis station.
And what about Los Angeles? The present Anaheim Angels were originally the Los Angeles Angels, and played in the city their first few seasons (1961-1965) before moving to Orange County and changing their name to California Angels. In the 1962 through 1965 seasons, they even shared Dodger Statium, which certainly would have simplified transportation problems had the two teams met in the Series.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
In 1945 the ONLY all-St. Louis World series took place, and appropriately in that travel-restricted war year,it took place all in the same ballpark [Sportsman's Park],as the Browns and Cards shared it normally during the season. They finshed the series off in 6 days, as the Cards beat the Browns in six games..1945 was, also of course, the ONLY year the Browns ever won an American League pennant.....Also, the sportswriters of the day referred to the series as a 'Trolley Series"....
The first Yankees-Giants series - in 1922 - took place in the Polo Grounds, as that was the season before Yankee Stadium opened.
Now wouldn't a subway series in 1974 or 1975 (or was it 1975/76?) be cool?
1974-75 -- I spent two summers as a non-union usher at Shea who only got assigned if they failed to meet their union usher call and/or had larger crowds than predicted (A Yanks-A's doubleheader in August '74 was the best payday, including tips). Both teams had an outside chance at the playoffs in 1974 before the Mets faded and the Orioles got ridiculously hot in September. In '75, they both stunk.
The '74 Mets never threatened in the pennant race, finishing at 71-91. Tom Seaver had a tough year, going 11-11. Most of the problem was due to a painful sciatic nerve in his hip.
In 1975, they stayed in the race into August, then got swept by one of the teams in their division, resulting in Yogi getting fired. Seaver won his third Cy Young Award that year.
Interestingly enough, Shea Stadium was used by four teams in 1975 - the Mets, Yankees, Jets, and Giants. The playing field took an absolute beating that year.
My memory on the Mets is a little faulty, then. I was going on how many calls I remember getting (bring blue bow tie for Mets games, black bow tie for Yanks) where they actually needed the extra ushers, and it dropped off big-time in 1975, meaning you had the option of either going home on the Flushing line while other people were heading to Shea, or watching the game for free, but dressed in white shirt and usher's pants (the bow tie definitely came off), which looked particularly goofy.
Attendance at Met games started dropping off after 1974, bottoming out in 1979 when only 788,000 showed up for the entire year. Those were the lean years when the Payson family didn't want to pursue high-priced free agents in an effort to hold down ticket prices (and save a buck or two anyway they could). It has been said that had Gil Hodges not died, the Mets would have remained competitive throughout the 70s. M. Donald Grant, who in the words of Whitey Herzog didn't know beans about baseball, never questioned Hodges about anything. One scenario had Hodges being the GM and Herzog managing. Whitey was director of Player Development at the time and was ordered to stay away from Hodges' funeral. He's never forgiven the Mets for that.
Actually, that all-St. Louis World Series took place in 1944. The Cubs advanced to the Fall Classic in 1945 and haven't been back since.
>>> Which other cities have the potential if not the talent for a "subway series? ..... Iguess L.A. could <<<
The only thing L.A. needs for a Subway Series is a subway which goes near Dodger stadium and an American League team. L.A. is a one team town. The next closest team is the Angels in Anaheim, which does not consider itself a part of Los Angeles any more than Hempstead considers itself part of NYC. A series between the Angeles and Dodgers is correctly called a "Freeway Series".
Tom
And don't expect to see such a series anytime soon.
The Phillies and A's both played in Shibe Park (later Connie Mack Stadium), so fans wouldn't have taken the subway between their ballfields. However, many fans used the Broad Street Subway to get there. I did.
Before 1935 or so, the Phillies played in an abomination called Baker Bowl, which had been built originally back in 1880's,and was a TOTAL wreck of a ballpark - Part of the stands actually collapsed a COUPLE of times, there an actual HUMP in centerfield- part of the park was situated over the Lehigh Valley train yards, believe it or not...Fortuantley, the Phillies were a terrible ballclub for many,many years, so baseballnever had to worry about it being 'shown off' in a glamour event like a World Series......
Speaking of Philadelphia, when was John F. Kennedy Memorial Stadium torn down? It seems all it was ever used for during its final years was rock concerts, and up through 1979 for the Army-Navy game.
It seems all it was ever used for during its
final years was rock concerts, and up through 1979 for the Army-Navy game.
JFK Stadium was torn down several years ago after it started falling down. The FU Center is using some of its space, south of the FU Spectrum, which is south of Vet Stadium, all served by the Pattison Ave station of the BSS.
Your statement is pretty accurate. However, there was an unusual promotion of an exhibition football game there the year the AFL started. Somebody promoted a preseason game between the NY Titans and Boston Patriots. He was just about laughed out of town for staging an exhibition game between 2 teams of another doomed-to-failure upstart pro football league in a NFL city. He co-promoted it with Acme Markets and got 75 thousand spectators to come out.
While we're on the subject, was JFK the home of the Eagles before the Vet, and also, didnt' they play in Franklin Field? Franklin Field is still there, no? Close to Penn?
Also, the only thing I remember seeing (on TV) in JFK Stadium was the Live Aid concert. That event sure was something.
The Iggles didn't play at JFK (formerly Municipal Stadium). They played at Franklin Field, on Penn's campus. SEPTA rail put a station adjacent to it for the trains that go south/southeast out of 30th Street.
Also, the only thing I remember seeing (on TV) in JFK Stadium was the Live Aid concert. That event sure was something.
Duelling concerts at Wembley Stadium and JFK televised worldwide.
As well as attending the Titans-Patriots game mentioned in my previous post, I attended a Who concert at JFK with 101,000 other people. It was awesome.
I seem to have read that the Eagles played at JFK, formerly Municipal Stadium in their early years, mainly because rent was low. Attendance was pitiful, though. Even with its open end, JFK could still seat 100,000. Can you imagine what sort of capacity it would have had with a completely enclosed field?
Notre Dame-Navy games were played there during the 1960s when Navy was the home team (they've never played each other at Annapolis, believe it or not), and it was already dilapidated back then. The 1957 ND-Army game was also played there; in fact, there is a color photo of streetcars lined up outside the stadium on the very day of that game in one of the books on Philly's streetcars.
If the Eagles played at Municipal Stadium, it was prior to my awareness. Perhaps they did.
I have a book titled Pro Football's Hall of Fame, which chronicles the lives and careers of its charter members (Jim Thorpe, Red Grange, Bronko Nagurski, Sammy Baugh, Mel Hein, Don Hutson, George Halas, and Bert Bell, among others). IIRC, Bell helped found the Eagles in 1933 - or was involved in some capacity - and arranged to play at Municipal Stadium because of the low rent.
IIRC, Bell helped found the Eagles in 1933 - or was involved in some capacity - and arranged to play at Municipal Stadium because of the low rent.
That's way before my time. BTW, the Eagles played at Shibe Park before moving to Franklin Field.
The 1948 NFL Championship game was played at Shibe Park in a blizzard.
Who played, and who won? Please tell me my Iggles won a national championship at some point, since they can't seem to win a Super Bowl!
Your Iggles won championships in 1948, 1949 and 1960.
Not your Iggles, eh? :o)
Know who the opponents were?
1948: Chicago Cardinals
1960: Green Bay Packers
Yeah, and Chuck Bednarik came out of retirement to help them win the last one. Took out Frank Gifford in a late season game with the Giants. Frank missed the entire following season because of that.
In one of the "Things That Aren't There Anymore" programs from Channel 12 discussed in a recent thread, Concrete Charlie was interviewed about the 1960 championship game. The reporter found him at his mother's house in Bethlehem, PA. She came to the door and couldn't speak to the reporter because she hadn't learned English after living here 50 years. At least that was my impression; maybe she's deaf.
That sounds about right. Chuck always conversed with his parents in their native tongue (Croatian, perhaps?), just as my folks and I still converse in Lithuanian (although they're both fluent in English, even if it isn't perfect). I wouldn't doubt his mother never learned English. My grandmother was never really fluent in it, either.
Chuck was talking about how he tackled Jim Taylor on the last play of the 1960 title game, then sat on him as the clock ticked off the last remaining seconds. Taylor was cussing him out, telling him to get off him, etc. Once time had run out, Bednarik said, "OK, you big so-and-so, you can get up now. This game is over."
Slovak
I stand corrected. Thanks.
Don't forget the many stock car races and the Thrill Show at Municipal/JFK. The crowds for the Thrill Show were huge, although the seats on the north end (the 'top' of the horseshoe) weren't used for some reason. I recall as a child going to these, arriving and leaving by the shuttle buses that ran between the then-end of the Broad St Subway at Snyder and the stadium. On the trip down, there was a seemingly endless line of buses which snaked from the loading point in front of the old Broadway Theater around the corner along Passyunk Ave. I think all PTC depots supplied buses for the shuttle service. After the shuttle service got everyone to the stadium, the buses lined up in the parking lot on the Broad St side and stayed there until the show was over, then they were loaded up for the return trip.
So is it true that JFK wasn't used for football again after the '79 Army-Navy game?
Walter O'Malley was offered the very site Shea occupies today, but turned it down because he felt that very few Brooklynites would venture to Queens to see the Dodgers play.
Like more Brooklynites would venture to L.A.?
There was nearly a subway series in 1950. The Phillies had a big lead most of the season until one of their 2 ace starting pitchers, Curt Simmons, got called up to military service for the Korean War, marking the beginning of the Phillies' subsequently patented late season slide. Going into the last game of the season at Ebbets field, the Phillies had a 1 game lead over the Dodgers. Robin Roberts, the other ace starter, started with a couple days rest and pitched a complete game, with Dick Sisler hitting a 3-run homer in the top of the 10th to win 4-1. With Roberts used up and Simmons gone, the Phillies used reviever Jim Konstanty to pitch the first game of the World Series, which the Yankees won 1-0. The Yankees swept (2-1, 3-2 and 5-2).
Cal Abrams was thrown out at the plate by a wide margin by Ritchie Ashburn while attempting to score on Duke Snider's single. The Dodgers proceeded to fire the third base coach. There was also a close play at the plate in which the Phillies' runner was called safe when Campy insisted he had him cold. At least the Phillies didn't blow the pennant the way they did in 1964. Up by 6 1/2 games with 12 to play, they lost 10 in a row while the Cardinals snuck in through the back door. The Mets figured in that race. They took two of three from the Cards right at the end and only a St. Louis win on the last day of the season prevented a three-way tie for first place.
Of course, the following year, the Dodgers blew a 13 1/2-game lead and lost the playoff with the Giants on Bobby Thompson's "shot heard 'round the world". You have to wonder what it was like on any given D train that day.
B"H
what *exactly* is skeletonized track? what's the difference between that and 'regular' track?
also, has anyone noticed the ceillings of the tunnels in the bowling green tubes? it looks pretty shabby, like it might come down at any minute (or at least parts of it) is the mta on top of this or what?
-yitz
I would guess it is track with the ballast removed and or/not secured/imbedded in a concrete foundation.
When Type II (half-ties in concrete) track is being renewed,
all of the old concrete that holds the ties in place is chipped
away and removed, then new half ties are laid on the invert (the
concrete foundation of the roadbed. Typically a period of time
elapses before the new concrete is poured over the ties, since
that requires taking the track out of service for about 60 hours
to let the concrete cure. During that time the track is called
"skeletonized" and the ties are held in position with temporary blocking. It's usually a 10 MPH zone because the track
can not withstand the high forces that would be placed on it by
normal speed running.
For a closer look go to the Northbound local track at 72/Bway. The skeletonized track starts just passed the CR board.
B"H
how convienient, I may actually be going up that way this evening...thanks for the info, gang!
-yitz
The way it is, is that if a Motorman gets tired of holding it, u can come to a stop in a station, and pull 80lbs of air and the Emergency brakes won't apply because its in Full Service. This is easy to understand if u watch the Air Guage, or some cars like the R46 say full service and when u reach full service u may let go. If u pull less than 80, it is supposed to Dump( apply brakes in Emergency). Also I think if u pull more than 80 it is supposed to dump anyway. I was on the uptown 2 in the BX and this Guy tried to stop the 2 at Freeman street and he pulled more than 80 and u heard the psssss-CHOW emergency sound and the Train made a hard stop.
You can't pull more than 80 lbs. of brake on a SMEE car. What happened is the T/O went too far with his brake handle and placed the train into emergency. Emergency is the next notch after full service. And most trains will still stay charged with at least 70 lbs. of straight air pressure when the master controller is released.
The retention pressure is the (Straight Air) pressure at which the deadman's feature will not activate if the master controller handle is released. The point of retention is not arbitrary and is something that is supposed to be checked on every inspection. On the R-46, the retention pressure should be above 58 PSI (if I remember correctly).
David said that its illegal to be on the platform on City hall station, and not to instruct us on how to get on the platform. Why not? we ride through the loop, and thats illegal too aint it? Don't get me wrong, but I won't go on the platform.
I don't recall advising you that it's okay to stay on the train either, when they explicitly tell people to get off. What you do is your own responsibility. Trust me, if the excuse starts to get around: "I read how to do it on a site on the web", that's the begininng of the end. When I start getting calls from the police about things people have done after reading this board (or, in another matter, things people have written here), that's the end of it. So use common sense and if you guys are going to discuss it, take it to email.
I thought the first ammendment allowed people to distribute information on how to commit "illegal" acts. You could always move subtalk to an overseas server. My website was overseas until the hard drive went.
The first amendment is not at issue here (that says, in part, "Congress shall make no law", it doesn't say anything about whether I have to allow it on my privately owned hardware).
I am not a lawyer (IANAL) and neither are you, but there has been dangerous precedent set in the past in regards to computer bulletin board systems that are involved in some way in illegal activities, be it software piracy, phone phreaking, bomb making instructions, etc. Typically the operator of the site is held liable for its content, hardware is seized, etc.
I've asked before but I do not think we have any actual laywers here.
As for hosting this site at an offshore hosting facility, that's ridiciulous. Why should I spend my money so you guys can talk about trespassing without risk? YOU host it if you want it so badly.
I've asked before but I do not think we have any actual
laywers here
Me, actually, though I work as a financial editor.
And John Bredin, Esq., plus at least one other whose name escapes me as well (which I really should remember since he gave my daughter some good advice on how to choose a law school).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In case you haven't heard, there have been many cases in which the courts have ruled that police and prosecutors had violated a citizen's freedom of speech. I expect that such cases will continue to arise. Before you advise people to stand on their rights, I suggest you contemplate the amount of grief and agrevation suffered by the people who won or will win those cases along the way (not to mention those who were mistaken about the extent of their rights and lost). In short, the cutting edge of the law is not a comfortable place to sit. If you want to put your toosh there, that is your concern. Dave has no obligation to join you.
u guys should stay out of the tunnels......unless u got a death wish. Messin with a 40 ton subway train WILL get that wish granted quick fast ina hurry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
u guys should stay out of the tunnels......unless u got a death wish. Messin with a 40 ton subway train WILL get that wish granted quick fast ina hurry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!U HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!!!!!!!!!!
The tracks for city hall station are not in revenue service the C/O is suppose to clear the train at Brooklyn Bridge before the train is looped. You are not supposed to be on the train, passangers are not to be carried on non-revenue tracks. This was a change, I have in the past stayed on the train and when the T/O asked me to leave I asked him to call Command (Jay St.) to find out that is was okay. THAT HAS ALL CHANGED as stated by others in the thread.
You can try to stay on, but according to the current rules the operating crew should remove you.
This site should not endorse any illegal activity, from riding around a loop track to jumping to the track bed to take pictures (another past thread), it is all tresspassing and an ill-eagle!!
The tracks for city hall station are not in revenue service the C/O is suppose to clear the train at Brooklyn Bridge before the train is looped. You are not supposed to be on the train, passangers are not to be carried on non-revenue tracks. This was a change, I have in the past stayed on the train and when the T/O asked me to leave I asked him to call Command (Jay St.) to find out that is was okay. THAT HAS ALL CHANGED as stated by others in the thread.
You can try to stay on, but according to the current rules the operating crew should remove you.
This site should not endorse any illegal activity, from riding around a loop track to jumping to the track bed to take pictures (another past thread), it is all tresspassing and an ill-eagle!!
There's quite a difference between staying on the train for a trip around the loop and actually going onto the City Hall platform. If you're caught on the train going around the loop, you can say that you'd fallen asleep and didn't hear anyone tell you to get off. Obviously, if a crew member comes up to you before the train goes through the loop, and tells you to get off, you have to.
Actually going onto the platform is another matter. That would be very difficult or impossible to explain. Besides, just getting there would be dangerous.
As Dr. Hibbert said "I won't help you do that, but I will recomend someone who will."
Go to http://www.infiltration.org
They have information on how to explore a number of structures including:
Abandoned Buildings
Drains and Catacombs
Hotels and Hospitals
Institutions and Offices
Transit Tunnels
Utility Tunnels
The .org is based in Toronto so it kinda has a local slant, but it is still very helpful.
I know the TrainNet forum on Compuserve has this public notice:
Official Notice:
Public messages and files that endorse, incite or encourage members of the TrainNet Forum to participate in any illegal activity will not be permitted. Such activities include, but are not limited to, trespassing on railroad property, theft or vandalism of railroad equipment and interference with the operation of any railroad.
I think Subtalk lives up to this standard, I don't know if it you should incorporate a notice like this but on TrainNet anything talking about tresspassing is deleted without question.
Railfanning is about learining detailed, useless information, outdoor adventureing with little regard for property rights, salvaging stuff and taking pictures. We are in the same general group as extreme outdoorsmen/environmentalists, government conspiricy nuts and birdwatchers. BTW I found a great Web Ring: The Urban Exploration Web Ring I did not see if forgotten-ny.com is a member site.
Railfanning is about learining detailed, useless information, outdoor adventureing with little regard for property rights, salvaging stuff and taking pictures.
Wrong on almost all counts. Railfanning is about enjoying trains, exploring areas where we are welcome, learning information that is of interest to us and which is probably useful to us in some way, salvaging stuff that is deemed trash by its owner, and taking pictures. It is NOT about breaking the law.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read the "Day in the life of..." section and based on what I read, working for the MTA sucks. Please tell me that what Alex L. went through those days is not a common thing. Also, the article gave the feeling the MTA treats its employees like irresponsible teenagers working at a McDonald's. Is this the case? What are the things you like about working in your position?
I'm not trying to put down anyone's job, this is just what I got out of it. Please correct me if I recieved the wrong vibe from the article.
Also, the article gave the feeling the MTA treats its employees like irresponsible teenagers working at a McDonald's. Is this the case?
Probably because that's what many of them were before they came to work at the MTA.
The day that he mentioned was very far from the ordinary but some days can be real doozies that's for sure.
And the TA treats their front line workers like a pile of sh*t.
We do have days where nothing happens but who would read this story:
I went in to the booth and nothing happened. 8 hours later I wwent home.
Unfortunately events do happen and we have to respond.
Rob,
To put you at ease - No, those days are not "real". All of those events have happened to me, just not all on the same day. The T/O story actually took place on two seperate days,while the CR story happened piecemeal over fifteen months. In general, most of my days have been pretty quiet, just going up and down the road. However, that tends toward very boring story-telling.
As for working for the MTA, I don't. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority is an 'umbrella' agency that is supposed to provide financial and planning oversight for a number of transportation -related agencies in NY State, such as Metro-North, the LIRR, LI BUS, the Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority and the one I work for, the NYC Transit Authority (NYCT). It is these people who treat us like teenagers at McDonalds. Actually, in MY OPINION,it is not that bad. When you first sign on, they give you a rule book, the tools to play the game, and a bare minimum of practical application; then they send you out to play Game 7 of the World Series, every day. If you play by the rules, the game is easy and can even be fun; if you break the rules, and GET CAUGHT, it can be very costly. I would imagine, though, that those are the same conditions that exist in most workplaces (For the 15 years prior to Transit, I worked in a different game - The Deadline. No one cared how the work got done, when it got done or where it got done, just so long as when Opening Night rolled around, all the work was DONE).
In general, the biggest drawback to the job are the MORONS who ride the train (NB - this does not include everyone; only those incapable of civilized actions and common sense. Unfortunately, a lot of people regress to the level of their Stone Age ancestors when they enter the subway).
Sorry to take so long responding, but I was out sick for a few days.
Yeah, I'm out sick now with a sprained ankle. All you curent TA enployees and TA wanna bees: if you live alone & book off sick don't take a shower without calling out of the house! Yesterday while I was in the shower the doorbell rang, my wife answered it and it was some TA guy checking up if I was home. Never mind that I have 21 years on the job, have 200+ sick days and never had any disciplinary action! If I lived alone or my wife was out, they would have marked me AWOL! And if you are sick & sleeping at the time, if they ring the doorbell and you sleep thru it, you're AWOL as well! So I had to get out of the shower and talk to this guy. And my wife thought it was so childish that I had to sign a form that I was visited. And she always tells me that I talk like a disgruntled employee! She now admits that she knows why! So you wanna be a TSS? I'm glad I'm not one because I couldn't lower myself to check up on people who are out sick. If a guy abuses his sick leave, then I have no problem with being visited, but it is a slap in the face to any dedicated and conscientious employee. This is total disrespect. All because the supt. of the district is in competition with the other ones and if his guys are out less than the others, he gets his bonus/promotion! They try to intimidate people and bother them at home so they won't book off sick in the first place. And to top it all off, when I initially booked off, the woman asked me if I wanted an AVA! They must have had guys falling all over each other on extra board and if I took and AVA, it would not have been charged against employee availibality. What nerve! This is a legitimate illness. If I have a BIE, I couldn't walk around the train. It would also be difficult to climb up & down from the roadbed. And I'm taking pills to reduce the swelling in which it says not to operate heavy machinery.
I go to a school in NYC, and they had to send someone over to check
whether I actually live here!
I go to a school in NYC, and they had to send someone over to check
whether I actually live here!
That is a surprise. While schools sometimes do verify student residency, that's generally when there's a highly regarded suburban district close to a troubled urban district. People who live in the urban district may try to send their children to the suburban district, using relatives' addresses or the like, and as a result the suburban districts will check on residency. But it's hard to imagine why anyone would wrongfully try to send their children to NYC schools!
Not all New York PUBLIC schools are bad. I put in public to make sure that you don't think I'm exploiting a loophole.
That's true. On the other hand, I taught in a truly awful DC public school, and we had kids coming from across the city, which seemed odd. And then we had kids who actually lived in Maryland coming there! Truly bizzare. Never from Montgomery county, or Virginia. But still, kids were coming from out of district to a truly bad school.
There are suburban schools worse than the average NYC school (or worse than the worse). Roosevelt, LI comes to mind. Then there are NYC public schools that are some of the best in the country and get put on the US News list(then there are those that are snubbed because those idiots use higher average income to a school's detriment).
My Dad's former private company once had a program: go X number of weeks without a sick day and you go out to a restaurant on the cuff, X months more gets a better restaurant with the Vice President, X months more gets a trip, etc.
He said "there are a lot of things you can do that don't cost a lot of money but really make employees feel motivated." The public sector policy is different: "there are a lot of things you can do that don't save a lot of money but really make employees feel screwed."
Just remember, your pension is more generous than those is the private sector, and it is easier to goldbrick than in the private sector. The government only rewards employees who DON'T work.
Don't get fooled by the "generous" pension. We pay for our own pension via mandatory payroll deduction, albeit it will be less to pay come 12/15 for transit, whereas as far as I know, in the private sector, for example the former Chemical Bank, my former employer, paid for the enployees' pension themselves with no employee contribution. Of course they saved money becasue of the lousy salary they paid!
But do you pay Social Security Taxes?
Of course I do and so do you. And I don't make enough money a year to get to the point that they stop taking Social Security taxes out. Do you pay for your future pension by payroll deduction or does your boss pays for it? Most companies pick up the cost. That's my point. Also in the TA some people (Tier 1 people pre 1976 hire-ees) do not pay for their pension yet we all do the same job!
I was asking since there are some State and local government jobs where they do not contribute to the Social Security and I wasn't sure if transit workers were or weren't. Now I know.
In the distant past, 30 years ago and more, many, if not most, corporate pension plans required employee contributions, but now the percent that do is very low, probably less than 5%.
In the distant past, 30 years ago and more, many, if not most, corporate pension plans required employee contributions, but now the percent that do is very low, probably less than 5%.
Technically, that's true, but... most corporate pension plans 30 years ago were generous enough that you could actually retire on them, with full medical benefits. Now, unless you contribute to the max on your IRA and 401-K, retirement is out of the question, and lifetime medical benefits are a thing of the past too (but I can buy them through my employer after retirement at a cost of only $200/month MORE than my pension will pay out).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> I was asking since there are some State and local government jobs where they do not contribute to the Social Security and I wasn't sure if transit workers were or weren't. <<<
When Social Security was started during the depression, when the majority of non-government workers did not have any pensions, it was sold to the public as a universal pension plan. Government workers who had a pension plan (usually contributory from the worker's wages) were exempted since it was believed that their retirement was assured and they were already paying for it. I believe railroad workers were exempted from Social Security on the same basis.
By the ‘60s, working patterns had changed and workers did not necessarily enter into one government job and spend his/her whole working life there, and would be at a disadvantage if they worked in government too short a period to earn a full pension and worked under Social Security too short a time to get benefits. Most private employers were providing pension plans also. Because of inflation the retirement benefits to be received from Social Security were diminished in real terms. The federal government line now became that Social Security was a supplement to other retirement income rather than a full pension. This undermined the rationale for exempting Government employees. More and more local governments opted into the Social Security system, with a corresponding drop in the employees' contributions and benefits, so that now only a relatively few do not participate in the Social Security system.
Tom
More and more local governments opted into the Social Security system, with a corresponding drop in the employees' contributions and benefits, so that now only a relatively few do not participate in the Social Security system.
I believe that Los Angeles County and the state of Alaska do not participate in Social Security.
I was totally unaware that some did not contribute to Social Security. Sorry if my tone was a bit caustic!
No problem!
In the distant past, 30 years ago and more, many, if not most, corporate pension plans required employee contributions, but now the percent that do is very low, probably less than 5%.
Of course, there are many major employers today that do not offer any regular pension plans at all - the nation's largest private sector employer, Wal*Mart, is an example.
Railroad workers do not contribute into social security. Their money is diverted into "Railroad Retirement" instead. It is 12% that is deducted before taxes.
I thought railroad retirement was merged into social security about 20 or 25 years ago.
Where my dad worked they used to match employee contrabutions up to 17%. After a while it fell to 10 and then 9, but my dad always contrabuted the max amount. All the money I have earened in jobs and stuff so far I have put into a Roth IRA.
How can I goldbrick? Either I'm on the train and working, or I'm not. When I worked in an office, it was real easy to look like I was working while doing absolutely nothing.
(When I worked in an office, it was real easy to look like I was working while doing absolutely nothing. )
Thank God for the internet. I've been working like nuts for two weeks to meet a deadline, and may have to work Sunday as well. But after that it's an election year, and unless I get another job, I many have next to nothing to do until April 2002.
Absolutely shameful, that's all I can say.
The TA is like that alright. Mainly because so many TA workers before us abused the sick leave to such a point that they ruined it for all of us current employees. When they got 12 annual sick days in May, they would use them all up by June. Sick days are to be used when you are actually sick, not because you feel like hanging out or whatever.
I am a train operator with another 25 years to go before retirement and all I know is that there is no way that I am going to stay an hourly worker(train op, conductor, railroad clerk, etc.) for the next 25 years putting up with all this garbage. Did you know that supervisors never get checked up on when they are sick? True. Also did you know that a superintendent practically has to be an invalid in order to take a sick day? Maybe that's why they take all this garbage out on us.
All I know is that I'd rather take a promotion to dispatcher or train service supervisor and deal with having a raise every 5 or 6 years and no pick rights than stay a train operator for the next 25 years and have to worry about every little thing whether at the job or not(i.e.sick). Things will only get worse for the hourly worker as the years go on and as they do it's a good idea to have fewer people above you to mess with you.
The TA is like that alright. Mainly because so many TA workers before us abused the sick leave to such a point that they ruined it for all of us current employees.
There are still employees who abuse the 'Sick Leave Policies'. In some cases the abuse is quite blatant. Unfortunately, Sick Leave Abuse does more than cost the TA money. It also damages morale in the work unit - moreso than the controls you are complaining about.
Also did you know that a superintendent practically has to be an invalid in order to take a sick day?
This is also untrue. In fact, the sick leave policies for managers are somewhat more liberal than for hourly or supervisory employees. Requirements for turning in 'Sick Lines' are different and we can use our sick time to care for other family members. As it happens, though, I have well over 200 sick days. I don't have them because I can't use them. I have them because if I ever do get seriously sick, I won't miss any pay checks.
All I know is that I'd rather take a promotion to dispatcher or train service supervisor and deal with having a raise every 5 or 6 years and no pick rights than stay a train operator for the next 25 years and have to worry about every little thing whether at the job or not(i.e.sick).
Do yourself a favor and don't take a promotion for the reasons you stated. You will be
A) Just as unhappy in your new position.
B) A lousy supervisor who will be universally disliked by his subordinates and managers.
C) Likely demoted in a short time.
The step to supervisor requires that you change your mindset. You'll be required to enforce rules that you currently don't seem to agree with or understand the wisdom of. That's a poor recipe for a successful supervisor.
The unfortunate part of the 'repressive' policies is that they are often a reaction to situations experienced with bad employees. I work for a government agency that has similar policies (i.e. sick leave abuse/tracking employees, having to get notes for funerals (as hard to believe as that sounds - and try it sometime (I guarantee you'll get a very strange look from the funeral director)), and similar things). The policies didn't just materialize out of thin air - they are there because of experience.
Employees often argue that the rules are too 'paternalistic' and that they should be allowed to use 'their' earned sick time as they see fit, etc. The problem arises when a 20-year employee who has taken off sick regularly for hangovers, rainy days, extended vacations, trips to the track, etc, suddenly develops a serious illness and has single digits of sick time to cover it. All of a sudden, the idea of 'banking' the sick time for when it's really needed becomes apparent and the employee looks for a way out. Yes, it's difficult to deal with, but once again someone who decides not to take responsibility for his/her own actions now needs to be bailed out once again.
In these types of agencies, management employees can be held to higher standards by the top management, especially since the management folks are not usually represented by unions. Thus, the most stringent rules apply to those who cannot apply them as stringently to the 'front line' workers. Consequently, management folks usually end up with higher stress levels, burnout, and changed careers.
I'm not saying NYCT/MTA is right in what it does, but I think there are good reasons for this. The idealistic solution would be for folks to take personal responsibility for their actions and realize that their paychecks could be higher and workplaces could be much more pleasant if everyone tried to follow some basic rules. Since too many people are out to get what they can when they can, the oppressive rules will remain in place.
>>> The idealistic solution would be for folks to take personal responsibility for their actions and realize that their paychecks could be higher and workplaces could be much more pleasant if everyone tried to follow some basic rules <<<
This was used at the large non union firm that I worked at. The illness policy was that there were no set number of sick days, but any employee who felt he/she was too sick to work could call in sick. The company explained that it valued its employees and did not want to financially penalize them for illness, so they would be paid when out sick. After three consecutive days of absence, the employee was transferred to "short term disability" status and stopped receiving pay checks but would receive insurance benefits equal to their take home pay. To return to work, the employee had to bring a note from a doctor saying he was again fit for duty. There was also a policy that if an employee wanted a day off for personal business, he/she could explain the reason to his supervisor in advance, and if it was not a frivolous reason, the day off would be granted with pay.
It was up to the individual supervisors to make sure the policy was not abused. In the fourteen years I worked there both as worker and a supervisor, I never saw an abuse of this policy. OTOH I had several friends who worked for the County of Los Angeles. Their union contract allowed ten sick days in a rolling twelve month period which were not bankable. As they got to the point where it had been a year since they had been off sick, so they could accumulate no more sick days, they would take a day or two off so they would not "lose" the time. Anyone who did not take the time off was considered a fool by his co-workers.
Tom
That's the same way it is here in Arcadia, California's school system. You get ten days of sick leave per year, but you cannot add it up over the years anymore. When I started close to 33 years ago you could. Such stupidity and short-sightedness on the part of management continues to astound me. They want loyalty but refuse to show real interest in their employees. Is it any wonder in many fields the employees are telling management in subtle and not so subtle ways to take a hike. Witness the MTA strike in Los Angeles.
I guess what I find disturbing about Bill's story is not that they make sure employees are sick. Its that they went and checked up on Bill, given his particular circumstances. That is not treating your employees with respect. Employees who exploit the system will damage morale, but so will treating all employees as if they are always exploiting the system.
Those are not the reasons that I would want to take a promotion. I want it so that I can have a potentially or have it lead to a potentially challenging job other than the train operator job that I have now which can get monotonous on some days. It's just that the reasons that I had listed are some of the perks of the appointment to supervisor. I'm very happy with the job that I have now, it's just that the people down at Jay St. are out for blood and I would prefer that it not be mine.
And I'm taking pills to reduce the swelling in which it says not to operate heavy machinery.
Does that exclude light rail?
No, it doesn't exclude light rail. We had 2 bang-bangs at BWI Light Rail Station, resulting in 2 cars OOS for an unknown period. Both operators were taking some form of prescription drug that impared coordination.
Why can't people here detect humour? Do I need to say Rim Shot or something?
Some of us do. We also find humor in the serious responses.
No, that's my line .:-)
>>> If you play by the rules, the game is easy and can even be fun; if you break the rules, and GET CAUGHT, it can be very costly <<<
That's better than the military. There they have so many overlapping and conflicting rules, procedures and orders that if they want to pin a SNAFU on any individual they play the game of GOTCHA and are always able to find something that person did wrong.
Tom
I have heard this all b4 about Railfans or no 1 being allowed to ride on non Revenue Tracks. Oh please! I have not only ridden thru the city hall loop, but other non revenue Tracks such as the F Train Relay behind 179th street, and yes I have walked between the R46s and even sat in the Motormans seat and had my pic taken! Not to say anything, except this one thing. Motorman, Dispatchers and Conductors suddenly stop caring about where the public is not allowed! I have ridden the F from beginning to end in the R46 Motorman cab standing from 179 to Coney island. And some advice. If u wanna ride thru the City hall loop, DON'T RIDE IN THE FIRST CAR!!!! I always ride in the last car sitting behind the Cab underneath door number 1 and 2, opposite side of 11 and 12. THE CONDUCTORS NO LONGER CARE ABOUT EMPTYIN THE TRAIN!!! They just close it up when ordered, and I went thru! But one question to City hall station experts. Why do Motormen Stop in the loop? is that where they spend their recovery time? or is there alot of 6's in there waiting to turn around? To Lou, I have also ridden the 5 Trains loop!
Final question, every time I ride thru the loop, the 4 Train arrives with the 6, and then a 5 comes and then leaves and once the 5 leaves, then the 6 leaves. Is this schedule set up this way? the 4, then 5, then 6?? interesting!
Spend some time watching the board at City Hall from the end of the downtown platform, and also pay attention to the terminating and departing locals. You can see the board across the local track right about where the second car platforms. You'll quickly learn exactly what goes on in the loop.
Mark
I rode around the loop in the R142A. It was pretty neat.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
I have actually been thrown out of the R142 by police officers while attempting to go around the loop once.
I had gone on the loop about 5 times before that, but not on an R142.
Your motorman friend was taking a risk as he could have easily been written up for having an unauthorized person in the cab(an employee not performing duties in the cab is also considered unauthorized).
The same for riding the 179 relay, he could have gotten in trouble for that as well so thank your friend next time you see him.
And no, you aren't allowed to ride relay trains as per TA rules. You can get away with sneaking a ride on the relay like most railfans have done but you can get caught up if the train that you sneak on deviates from it's schedule and runs light.
As far as not caring about emptying the train, that's not always true. It depends on what line you are on and what train crew you get. If you get on my train, you will not ride the relay but the next crew might not care and let you go.
I am all happy and glad you enjoy risking a trip to Central Booking. I just think we shouldn't discuss illegal activites, period. All your TA friends risk writeups and suspensions, they are individuals as yourself and they can do what they want, it just should not be promoted in my opinon, and that is just that IMHO is mine alone as yours is your opinon. Enought said on this...
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before, but SEPTA has really improved the Regional Rail area of 30th Street. New signs and lighting on the platform and in the waiting area. It looks very nice.
This is an 8.5 inch x 11 inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collectorąs MUST HAVE. The supply is very limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea.+ $2. P & H in check or Money Order
Made out to Mike Makman.
To: Prof. Putter
Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
Got mine last Friday .... the colors are very nice. Not every MC ever issued, but it appears that most if not all of the Holders are.
Mr t__:^)
While passing over the Coney island yard on the belt pkwy I spotted what looks like a yellow school bus on wheels. Any Info on this equipment?
This subject has been discussed MANY times here and elsewhere.
What makes it look like a "school bus" is the yellow paint. Actually, it is a GM transit bus, either a TD4506 or TDH4507, mounted on a flatcar and used for track inspection work. Closeup photos exist int he New York Subway Resources website.
I believe what you are refering to is called the Sperry Rail Service car (aka SRS 402). It can be found at various yards throughout the system as well as doing duty at mainline rail facilities.
It is gasoline powered and as far as I know it does a "sonogram" of the running rails to find minute cracks in them (if any exist).
BMTman
I saw and recorded Sperry car SRS 403 at the 71-Continental station.
I also have a picture of it with 50150. Just Click on the picture link below, take the express train, then the Court St Shuttle, then go to Transit Pictures 1 or Transit Sounds 2000.
In Fall of 1998, here was the arrangement of trains (all times out of Jamaica) between 2:30 and 3:30 PM:
2:34 to Ronkonkoma: Mineola, Hicksville, all stops to Ronkonkoma
2:50 to Huntington: Mineola, Hicksville, Syosset, Huntington, Change at Huntington for Port Jeff, Mineola for Oyster Bay
3:04 to Patchogue, Mineola, Babylon, all stops to Patchogue
3:18 to Huntington, all local stops
Because of a construction project, the routes were reduced "temporarily" to:
2:34 to Ronkonkoma, Mineola, Hicksville, all stops to Ronkonkoma,
change at Mineola for Oyster Bay
2:52 to Patchogue, same as before
3:13 to Huntington, all local stops, change at Huntington for Port Jefferson
After the summer, service was "restored to normal". Here is today's arrangement:
2:36 to Ronkonkoma, Mineola, Hicksville, all stops to Ronkonkoma,
change at Mineola for Oyster Bay
3:00 to Patchogue, same as before
3:13 to Huntington, all local stops, change at Huntington for Port Jefferson
Under this arrangement, every train is SRO except fot the Patchogue! And what about the Port Jeffersonians who have to deal with a local?
Also, the 1:10 PM out of Port Jeff discharges all passengers at Huntington where they wait for a local, while the diesel deadheads toward Jamaica, arriving 10 minutes before the local. On new years the train kept passengers until Jamaica, why not now? The 4:03 PM and most weekend trains continue on to Jamaica with passengers, why not this one?
Very easy. It was a cost cutting move. When costs are cut, the line superintendent gets a bonu$.
Ah, the old "return to normal" switcheroo.
Several years ago, the LIRR tried massive restructurings which amounted to service cuts. For example, they had Port Washington construction midday service cut back to hourly (from half-hourly) for so many years they thought noone would mind if they made it permament. They did.
Then they tried to run Babylon locals hourly (instead of half-hourly) because it will "regularize service and make track work easier." That didn't fly either.
So now they quietly drop the trains, one by one...
It really is a shame about the LIRR. Is there a more half-hearted system in the Industrialized World?
Long Island desperately NEEDS the LIRR--or rather it needs a transit system that is an adequate alternative to the highly congested area roads. Not a godawful, incompetent system that keeps getting worse.
OK. That's my rant for today. :)
Long Island Bus is worse.
There is supposed to be a bus that leaves Glen Cove at 6:02pm weekdays. It is always late. Today it never showed.
This happens all the time, crowding on the N20/21 is getting worse.
LIRR may have it's problems, but compared to Long Island bus LIRR aint so bad.
It was one thing when buses ran 5 or 10 minutes late. Now they seem to run 20-30 minutes late, especially on the N20/21.
But I know, LIB riders don't have the $$ LIRR riders have so everybody on LI feels sorry for LIRR riders.
I betcha if you put most LIRR commuters on LI Bus for a week they'd be missing the LIRR alot!!
This reminds me of the nonsense the LIRR pulled years ago they started chipping away at Main Line service to Greenport. Beginning around 1962, the LIRR decided to cut the number of trains between Greenport and Jamaica by substituting with bus service. This was not necesarilly a bad move as the bus took a slightly different route than the train and had more opportunities to serve intermediate communities. This bus service was known as "Road 'n Rail service."
The service ran for about 20 years before the LIRR decided to upgrade the Main Line East of Ronkonkoma and then eliminate "Road 'n Rail" bus service. What they actually did was lower speed limits between Greenport and Ronkonkoma after overhauling the line East of Ronkonkoma while eliminating bus service.
One would think that the elimination of bus service would be ok because the LIRR had said it would run additional trains once the track work was done - the trains replacing the buses.
Actually, once the work was done, we were left with between 2 and three trains a day that ALWAYS require a transfer at Ronkonkoma (Greenport trains used to run to Jamaica or Hunterspoint) and no buses to fill the gap.
Before the construction, the frequency of train/bus combination service to Greenport was once every 2-3 hours or so. After the construction, the trains now service Greenport 2 or 3 times a day. Bus service is now gone (except for that run by Sunrise Coach - a competitor to the LIRR.)
AFter contemplating for some time about the future of the B division, I seemed to get the idea that a 2AV subway that feeds into the 63rd Street tunnel (I forget if the plan was to go into the 63rd or 59th Street tunnel) it would nullify any use for the new 63rd connection, because, assuming you wanted to operate 2AV at capacity, and capacity was the same on the 63rd Street subway as the 2AV subway, you would have no room for trains left in the part from 51st to the 2AV connection that would go into Queens.
Even if the stubway was routed into 59th Street/Broadway, it seems as if that would put a major dent into the fluidity of the B division (at least before we have all of the MB, and even that may not clear up such a dent). But maybe I'm just tired.
I don't understand what the problem is.
The connection for the Second Avenue line will be parallel and not intersect with the Queens lines. Before the MB problems, the QB (Q) would terminate at 59th Street, so a Second Avenue line would actually make things more efficient by having CBD trains packed in both directions.
What I believe Isaac is saying is that additional traffic from a 2nd Ave. subway onto the same tracks that the Queens trains will be using, via 63rd St., will cause congestion and increase running time on those Queens trains. Depending on how many TPH the 2nd Ave. line
will have, it seems that we could be replacing one congested area (53 St. tunnel) with another just as congested (63 St.) once the 2nd Av. line is built.
Only Queens Blvd -- 63rd St. -- Broadway service would be impacted. The primary track connection from Queens through the 63rd Street tunnel brings trains to 6th Avenue. The primary track connection from 2nd Avenue through 63rd Street uses a separate pair of tracks to reach Broadway. While there is a cross-over between the two pairs of tracks, only the use of that cross-over will be impacted when 2nd Avenue is opened. Is Queens Blvd to Broadway revenue service via 63rd Street actively being contemplated?
(Is Queens Blvd to Broadway revenue service via 63rd Street
actively being contemplated?)
No. The plan is for Second Avenue trains to the Broadway line and 63rd Street trains to the 6th Avenue line to stop at 63rd and Lex on different tracks. One would be able to transfer across the platform.
If the Stubway was extended down Second Avenue, the plan was for one train from Queens to turn south on Second Avenue, replacing one train from upper Second Avenue that diverted to the Broadway line.
If the Stubway was extended down Second Avenue, the plan was for one train from Queens to turn south on Second Avenue, replacing one train from upper Second Avenue that diverted to the Broadway line.
In that case I can understand the problem. the 63rd Street now will be at half capacity, it will provide the capacity used in the 60th Street tunnel by the Astoria line. If there was a second train, where would it go? There's no room!
The 63rd Street line was planned to connect to a bypass via the LIRR tracks which would give that additional train someplace to go and provide an alternative superexpress for "Jamaicans."
Read the History of the IND on this site for more information.
There is no problem, other than our lack of clarity causing you confusion. The proposed 2nd Ave trains using 63rd St would NOT use the same tracks as the 63rd St trains to/from Queens. As has been pointed out, there are FOUR tracks in the tunnel under 63rd St. The south pair go between Queens and 6th Ave. The north pair would go from upper 2nd Ave to Broadway. Since Queens trains would not normally go to Broadway, the two routes don't conflict.
My confusion?
The track connection from Second Avenue would feed into the currently unused tracks at 63rd/Lex (behind the fake-brick walls on each level), which are there "expressly" for that purpose. Those tracks, in turn, feed into the Broadway Line express, and would not interfere at all with the 6th Avenue tracks currently in use.
If a full-length Second Avenue line is built, only the "upper" segment (i.e. north of 63rd) could, or would need to, operate at full capacity. The major residential density is in Upper Manhattan and the Bronx, so two routes would do well there. In Manhattan, one route would use 63rd Street to get to the Broadway Line, while the other would stay on the East Side. Even half-capacity would offer a 4-minute headway on the "lower" segment, which would still greatly relieve Lexington overcrowding.
Tomorrow I will be traveling home from Meriden CT to 30th St. via Amtrak. I will be returning via Amtrak on Sunday. Is there anything you want me to look out for or take a picture of. Now's the time to ask. Also if anyone wants to meet me at Penn Station I'll be on the 4:42 train out of Meriden, I think it is 472 so that means NE Direct train 172. Please display your SubTalk tatoo so I don't mistake you for a normal New Yorker and deploy my state issue New Yorker repellant (I think its some sort of acid).
Chicago's articulated "L" cars, the 5000 series was referred to a while back. They date from 1947 and were inspired by New York's Clark built Bluebirds, in fact a City of Chicago film documentary on the State Street subway featured footage of the New York cars.
Two sets built by Pullman and two by St. Louis Car Co., they were also called compartment cars and the articulation was included as a weight saving measure. The married pair concept negated the need for articulation. Two cars share one apparatus or equipment to cut down weight. So the CTA's subsequent order of new "L" cars was the 6000 series; lightweight, married pair, PCC design.
The articulated car sets became misfits; operationally and from a maintenance point of view. True, as was mentioned, to get around union rules, they found a new use as Skokie Swift one man cars and performed in this service for 22 years.
Today you will still see articulation where it is desired for one operator to oversee a larger passenger carrying capacity like on streetcars, oops...LRV and buses. In fact, don't laugh, the CTA is buying a fleet of used articulated buses from Seattle to replace its current fleet of buses that bend in the middle.
Chicago has taken one person operation to unprecedented levels, now that all "L" trains are so operated, even eight car trains in the subways, so no articulation is needed there.
And yes, articulation can yield more speed like the TGV but we don't need it in Chicago. Our "L" cars already have 70mph capability thats gone unused since the old Skokie Swift was slowed down.
Wishful dreaming or nostalgia don't make for good transit decisions. I disaree that articulated cars are more desirable. It seems more obvious to cut back on the four and five car sets, if future service choices seem limited.
David Harrison
There are advantages and disadvantages for both types.
Articulated cars save on couplers, link bars trucks and motors(advantage).
In case of a failure (accident or motor/control failure) you lose the whole articulated unit, not just 1 car. Articulated cars usually have an A car and a B car.(C & D cars would be in cars with 4 and 5 units)
loose an A, it takes all the other units with it. (Major disadvantage)
A linked 5 car set (like NYCT) if you lose an "A" car, you can replace it with a similar car that can be set up as an "A". You don't lose the whole 5 car set.
In Baltimore, our two BWI bang-bangs have cost us 2 cars. We lost 5048 in February and 5008 in the second one. That's two cars lost until their "A" ends get repaired or replaced.
In an interesting fallout from the 2 BWI crashes, the Superintendent of Light Rail Operations at the time has been releived of his position and placed in dead-end job in MARC, the MTA's Rail commuter operation, where he has no supervisory powers at all.
Were all four preserved? I know one set is in the IRM and one is at
Fox River.
>>> In case of a failure (accident or motor/control failure) you lose the whole articulated unit, not just 1 car. Articulated cars usually have an A car and a B car.(C & D cars would be in cars with 4 and 5 units) <<<
Dan;
It seems that the biggest problem with articulated cars is the difficulty in cutting cars from trains, and therefore loss of a whole train with a problem in any car. While waiting at rail crossings, I have observed long strings of articulated low flatcars hauling double decked shipping containers. I assume that the railroads must have a way of detaching these cars when there is a problem. Obviously flatcars without motors in the trucks are simpler than a passenger hauling subway, but it is time to think outside the box and consider how an articulated subway could work.
I am not a train designer, but it seems that it would be possible to design a train made up of three basic modular components, "A" type control cars that would be on the ends of the trains, "B" type non control cars which would be the middle cars in a train (from none to the number limited by platform lengths, and power trucks containing the wheels and motors. The "A" cars would have a dedicated truck at the cab end, and would attach to a power truck at the other end which would also have the next car attached to it. The "B" cars would have no wheels of its own, but would attach to motor trucks at each end.
The real problem is finding a simple safe way to detach cars from the power trucks between them. I would envision something like the jacks on semi trailers that are lowered when it is detached from a tractor. Yards would also have to have temporary wheels that could be put in place when the motor trucks are removed so that cars could be pulled or pushed around the yard, and some kind of crane equipment to remove a detached motor truck from the track.
Assuming a relatively simple way of detaching the cars is found, this would give the best of all worlds. Passengers would be able to freely circulate through the length of a train, and the modularity of the components would allow more equipment to remain in service while repairs are being made. For instance if there is a problem with a motor truck, a train can be split in a yard, the truck removed and replaced with one from the yard reserve stock and be ready to go. When the truck is repaired it would go into the yard reserve. If a car body needed extensive maintenance (more than can be done while the train is on layover), it could be removed from its motor trucks and placed on yard wheels and be replaced by a reserve car body. When repaired that car would go into the reserve. With computer inventory control of the car bodies and trucks it should be possible to keep track of milage and time of all the components.
Unfortunately the TA has not seen fit to award me a development contract, so I will leave it to someone else to work out the thousands of details to make the concept work.
Tom
In a nutshell, you just described the Triplexes to a T. Their sections were fairly simple to detach and reassemble. There is an excellent description of this in Subway Cars of the BMT.
In actuality, the Triplexes received very little maintenance during their careers, mainly because they were built so well they didn't need it. I won't go any further; you all know what I would say next.
You have just got to stop praising the D types, Steve. Each Subtalker is permitted only one model to rave about, and you previously picked the R-10's.
And I still regret never having ridden on the Triplexes. They were an excellent piece of equipment and deserve credit for that.
I've also sung the praises of the R-1/9s. As I've mentioned before, they're in a dead heat with the R-10s for my alltime personal favorite cars.
Hi, Dave,
Your points against articulated cars seem to focus on the labor issue. In terms of New York (the BMT) this was not the issue driving development of articulated equipment for rapid transit use.
Sharing of undercar equipment was one issue, but others, especially relevant to NY today, are physical flexibility and passenger safety.
New York attempted to take advantage of the reduced equipment needs of maintenance cost of having fewer units by building 75-foot cars. This reduced a full length BMT-IND trainset from 10 cars to 8 cars, but created a car which could not be used on the BMT Eastern Division and which required locked doors between cars because of clearance problems on curves.
Articulated trainsets could create universal B Division equipment which would reduce investment in onboard equipment and its maintenance AND provide safe passage through a larger portion of the train. This is not only a safety plus, but would help load balancing in rush hours.
New York's experience with articulated equipment was positive, the equipment having an excellent maintenance record. The largest and longest-lasting fleet, the triplexes, were withdrawn because they became maintenance orphans, not because they maintenance problems. Still, they exceeded 35 years in service.
Hi Paul, great to hear from you. Brings back the days of your publication to mind.
The labor issues seem to be the only impetus to there being any articulated designs today, that's why I only mentioned it.
Whatever drove the design of articulation in New York was 60 to 70 years gone. If what you say about safety and incompatibility are true, the simple answer seems to be to go back to a shorter car.
The fact that cars can't be used on an eastern division...is that a problem concerning transit management or a preceived problem concerning railfans? With the two separate car sizes in NYC, you've lived with all these years, now there are three instead of two. The CTA had to live with incompatability between the high performance and the PCC cars for 40 years.
The locked end door issue is another matter. Maybe the cars can be sold to a suburban system that doesn't have the curvature. Hey, the CTA is buying Seattle's retired articulated bus fleet so anything might be possible.
Going to Vegas, see y'al when I get back.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
While it is true that Chicago's 4000s and 6000s could not m. u. with later equipment, or each other, all of their rapid transit equipment was built to the same dimensions. This means that any car class could operate on any line. When all is said and done, the only thing which prevents longer cars in Chicago is the sharpness of some of the curves on elevated structures. The Dearborn and State St. subways have wider curves.
"...any car class could operate on any line."
While that is generally true, I can think of three exceptions:
1) Wood and wood/steel cars were prohibited from running in the subways.
2) Cars not equipped with trolley poles couldn't operate under wire. The outer (surface) end of Lake Street and Evanston branch come to mind.
3) When the 6000 series was introduced, the fish belly configuration prevented them from running on the outer end of Lake Street because of close clearances with the C&NW embankment.
Of course, with the exception of part of the Skokie (Yellow) line being under wire, all three of those conditions no longer exist.
You're right. My statement pertains to today's equipment. Initially, the all-steel 4000s were scattered throughout the system. When the State St. subway opened in 1943, the 4000s had to be rounded up to provide service.
The sharpest curve on the whole system, I was told, was the turn around loop at the old Howard Street yard used by North-South subway trains. Of course that trackage was eliminated with the construction of the new Howard ST yard.
Then second place--now first place is the inside curve at Lake and Wells, with the lack of superelevation adding to the severity. Next probably comes all the rest of the Loop "L" curves.
Sharpest curve outside of the Loop is 63rd and Calumet on the Green Line. There were two more like this one on the south side "L", both at 40th Street but they were doubled in radius in 1907 when the third track was added.
Finally, the two curves at Hubbard ST at Wells and at Franklin were probably just as sharp, before they were widened with new steel structure.
In consideration of curvature and wheel wear, in the days of the Lake Dan Ryan, this was the only "L" route that didn't have a turning loop, thus the cars all faced one way all the time. Periodically, on a weekend, all the cars were brought to the Loop and turned. I don't know if this was done for the Skokie line.
David Harrison
I would say that some others that merit mention are:
* the "S" curve on the Green Line south of the loop
* Brown (Ravenswood) entering Kimball - and - also near Paulina.
* around and just north of the Merchandise Mart
wayne
I was only mentioning the really, really sharp curves and you're right about Kimball. It should have been included.
The Harrison ST "S" curves aren't really that sharp because of easements before and after. These curves were in the five year capital improvement plans to be lessened. The offending buildings were already knocked down.
The curves north of the Mart: Yes in the old days before the structure was reworked. Today, they're a breeze.
How many of these tightest curves can you name that have figured in derailments with cars leaving the structure?
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
"indiana" i.e. the curveN & W of the Indiana stop near 40th St. Eaely 70's IIRC when that was the 'North South Thru Route'
"Jackson Park B Train 43rd St will be next"
How many of these tightest curves can you name that have figured in derailments with cars leaving the structure?
Just the one incident at the northeast corner of the Loop in 1977. That was not due to the sharpness of the curve; I believe it was the operator's error that caused that wreck.
wayne
Thank you for the updated information! I was not aware that any easing of the elevated curves had been done. I am relying on a rather old (early 1980s) street and elevated map, obviously out of date.
Thanks again,
Wayne
A picture of the Merchandise Mart station being constructed shows the Hubbard ST curves were eased before 1930. I would venture a guess that the work was done around 1921 when the new Wells ST bridge was put in, or in the teens when the north-south "L" routes were through-routed. A triva item is to have someone who is unaware plot the bent numbers from the Mart over to Franklin. Some numbers will be missing.
And now the envelopes, please....sharp curves where trains derailed due to excessive speed: 63rd and Calumet; 59th and Prairie (59th ST JCT), 40th and Wabash, Lake and Wells. Ironically, all involved 6000 series PCC cars.
1. NB Jackson PK Howard failed to stop at South Park (King DR) and jumped curve about 500 ft beyond station. A girder between NB and SB track caught lead car and prevented it from crashing to ground. I saw the aftermath personally. 2. NB Englewood Howard midnight train left State ST, but failed to slow at JCT. Lead car left rails and crashd into two story brick building. Car again landed on a steel beam between two "L" structures and remained suspended over the alley. This one woke me up, I lived on the block, but being a small kid I went back to sleep, only to observe all the commotion after breakfast.
3. and 4. were witnessed via TV and newspapers. SB train left 35th ST and failed to slow for curve. Two lead cars of four car train left structure. NB Ravenswood failed to stop at Clark & Lake and jumped tracks at Tower 18 about 500 ft beyond. SB track and structure width contained accident.
I do remember hearing that both conductors in the missed station accidents were asked why they didn't pull the emergency cord. When I later became a conductor, I always made it a point to be up front chatting with my motorman after 35th ST. The CTA never had timer signals at curves and only with the introduction of cab signals, was a speed reduction enforced.
Yes, the famous and fatal crash at Lake & Wabash did not involve excessive speed. A second train also fell from the structure near the 40th-Wabash curve. The 7th and 8th car of a SB derailed on a switch at 39th ST. The motorman reset and drug the derailed cars about 1200 feet, around the curve, before they finally fell off. A new rule was imposed demanding motormen walk their trains following any emergency brake activation.
I know, you want the exact dates. I'll have to dig for that information.
David Harrison
"A triva item is to have someone who is unaware plot the bent numbers from the Mart over to Franklin. Some numbers will be missing. "
What are bent numbers?
Each set of columns and cross girder (bent) has a number, numbered consecutively from some starting point and the number is stencilled on the upright. Because the north side connector track used to go all the way to the corner at Hubbard and Wells and then all the way to Franklin, and so on; when they eased the two curves they didn't need as many columns.
David Harrison
The crash at Lake & Wabash sort of involved 6000-series PCC cars: the Ravenswood train that got bumped in the tush by the 2200-series Lake-Dan Ryan train was a 6000-series. What a wreck was #2289 and especially #2290.
wayne
Actually, the first two cars of that ill-fated train were #2043 and #2044, both of which fell to the pavement below after nudging the rear of the Ravenswood train. They were part of an order of Pullman-built rail cars delivered in 1964. The last of that series was retired in 1994.
But remember guys, the Lake & Wabash crash isn't in the list because it wasn't caused by excessive speed.
David Harrison
Do you know if CTA is thinking about easing any more curves, or were all these projects done years ago? The one that always bugged me is the jog 1/2 block west that the Green/Orange line takes on its way south from the loop.
CTA Project 194.001 was titled Reconstruct Harrison Curve and that was mentioned in the CTA 1996-2000 Capital Plan. Of course its now near the end of 2000. I'd have to look at the new Plan to see what's with it.
I plan on visiting the CTA library next week.
David Harrison
The Triplexes received very little maintenance during their careers. They would have laughed in the face of deferred maintenance had they been kept. The main reason for their premature slaughter was the TA's desire to get rid of all nonstandard rolling stock regardless of condition. Bad, bad, bad decision.
The BMT standards served longer than the Triplexes, and as a fleet outmunbered all other BMT equipment combined.
While I was in Vegas, someone asked about the preservation status of the CTA/CRT 5000 series. Three of the four survived. One at IRM in Union, IL; one at Fox Valley in South Elgin, IL; and the third at the railroad museum in Monticello, IL along Interstate 72.
You should have seen me do a "double-take" as I drove past on my way to Springfield, IL. This was ten years ago and the articulated at Monticello was in bad shape.
David Harrison
Question: Earlier today I posted 4 or 5 messages on Subtalk from my school computers and tonight I logged on from my home computer to see what the responses were and the messages themselves were gone. Seeing as how the oldest message was only about 10 hours ago, what's up with that? They were all transit-related, not related at all to people on this board or carpetbaggers running for the senate
There are two things you might do before jumping to the conclusion that Dave or his computer doesn't like you: 1) click the "reload" button on your browser to make sure that the subtalk message index isn't from your browser cache; or 2) do a search limited to your postings to make sure that you haven't simply overlooked them amidst all the others.
If you've been behaving yourself, there is no reason for Dave to have singled you out for special treatment. He has better things to do with his time.
I don't see any posts made by you in the past 24 hours or so; the last message deleted was some of the flamage on Sunday 10/8 at 00:01.
I short while back I posted an AMTRAK question which mysteriously vanished, I'll post it again if I remember what it was...
When the City of Chicago and the CTA rehabbed the Green Line, they did what no other city had done. I think that when you say it was only putting up new stations and new footings on an old steel elevated structure dating from 1892/93 you are doing an injustice.
The Green Line rehab involved new support bents and columns on 63rd Street. The supports under the 1907 added third track from Indiana to Roosevelt were all changed out. (The older columns were kept.)
Three truss bridges over railroads were replaced with through girder designs and the curved bridge at 40th Street replaced with new structure altogether.
Add to that a whole new infrastructure including power supply, signalling, new track deck, rails, and walkways. Eliminated also were old girder bridges at long forgotten stations that were maintenance headaches. The rehab was an engineering masterpiece!
But as was pointed out here previously, and I agree, the Green Line rehab was a work for the future. Of course the ridership is still low for today! This ultra modern line goes through acres and acres of vacant land. It's a railroad through the middle of a land bank.
There is a faulty premise to the question, "Should the Green Line go to a terminal at 63rd & Stony Island like the old Jackson Park "L". The Green Line should go all the way to where the people live. Why should they have to take a long bus ride, just to get to the "L" and then need another bus ride to get where they're going.
With what's occurred already, the rest of east 63rd should be dismantled and the line extended south and east along South Chicago. The fight a few years back to go to Dorchester was playing the old Chicago game--"You better keep what you got."
How long have the plans to extend the Red line to 103rd and to Morgan Park gathered dust? What happened to the Crosstown subway? The Skokie extension north has been been proposed since the late 60's. Now even the Orange Line extension to Ford City has slipped back.
Chicagoans have to admit another ingrained weakness in our "wheel and spoke" "L"/subway system. Except for the downtown and the two baseball parks, it really doesn't go all the way to where the people want to go--museums, parks, lakefront, shopping. Any interface with Metra is sparse at best.
Yes, it does go to the two airports, but not to United Center or Soldier Field. When you ride the train and get off at the closest stop, there's always still some walking to do or a transfer needed for the bus.
Next time, why the Blue Line deserves its rehab.
David Harrison
The Brooklyn student who was arrested two years ago for turnstyle-jumping after using his MetroCard was awarded $40K for court fees, legal fees and a little gravy. The story in Wednesday's Times says that a computer check showed that he had swiped his card at the time of his arrest. He was in custody 19 hours charged with fare evasion and looking like a potential criminal. The city, of course, admits no wrongdoing.
What does it take for the TA to access a record of a particular card swipe? Is the info available in real time? To Whom?
Can a cop who thinks someone just jumped a turnstile verify a story that the card was just swiped?
Can a cop who thinks someone just jumped a turnstile verify a story that the card was just swiped?
Apparently not. If you read back a couple weeks, you will see a thread in which I mention that I was ticketed for "fare evasion" in which my unlimited ride metrocard did not work. The cops took it to the token booth clerk who could tell them nothing, or at least he didn't care to.
The machine screwed me.
The station agent screwed me.
And then the cops screwed me to the tune of $60.
According to the article, I suppose I should be thankful that I'm white, or I could have spent hours in jail. And just so we're clear, IMHO, this guy from the article should have been treated no worse or no better than me. But then again, not being black, it would have been impossible for me to settle a $40,000 lawsuit to right the wrong perpetrated against me for the same injustice because I would not have been able to argue "racial profiling."
Without it even becoming a racial profiling issue there really needs to be a way for the police and/or clerk to verify the status of the card including the times and places it was used. I know here in DC I once had trouble with my farcard and when the station manager checked it in his booth I beleive he was able to see all info about the card such as the times and station it was swiped at as well as it's current value. As an IT professional I'm sure this is not a difficult feature to have.
Wayne
It used to be that if you swiped an unlimited card that had been used within the last 20 minutes, you got a response of "just used." Otherwise, you could swipe it in a card reader and get the date and time of last use. (I don't know about the pay-per-ride cards.) Has this been changed?
being white may not protect you from false arrest & police brutality you also should win a case of " worongul profiling " if you were wrongfully with malace & forethought targeted too. I have seen police target what they call"certain types of whites"
all of this is wrong especially when you pay your fare & are deliberately being tagged by some " out of control freak cop "
[Can a cop... verify a story that the card was just swiped?]
Of course. Just walk over to the reader, or the booth, and scan the card. Anybody who's willing to look (THAT'S the key!) will see when and where the card was last used - all of that is encoded ON THE CARD.
Even better, go upstairs and dip it on a bus. If the card really was swiped at the turnstile, then the bus farebox should accept a transfer.
It seems to me that the cop(s) and station agent(s) involved should have been held personally liable for acting with "actual malice" in refusing to verify the card's status.
They may very well have verified the status and decided to give me a summons anyway, since I jumped the turnstile. But, since I had an unlimited ride MetroCard which had not yet expired and which I swiped and swiped and swiped to no avail, I was not guilty of so called "fare evasion." Only impatience. The injustice in this case was not my being targetted, but rather being cited for a crime which I did not commit.
The injustice in this case was not my being targetted, but rather being cited for a crime which I did not commit.
...so, if the cops and station agent did verify my card-use, and gave me the ticket anyway, then this is plainly wrong. In that case, it was not my word that I paid my fare, but actual proof. The cops giving me that summons after having proved my innocence is blatantly insidious. After all, "fare evasion" is the crime, not "turnsile jumping."
If they do it on the computer the cops use, why can't it be done at the turnstile? Oh, yea remember this is the same agency that removed field shunting from trains because they refuse to upgrade signals.
(The Brooklyn student who was arrested two years ago for turnstyle-jumping after using his MetroCard was awarded $40K for
court fees, legal fees and a little gravy. He was in custody 19 hours charged with fare evasion and looking like a potential criminal.
The city, of course, admits no wrongdoing.)
The lawyers will probably get most of that. What is amazing is that people repeatedly settle with the City for millions for things that are their own damn fault, and this clear case of City negligence and misconduct is settled for a fraction of that. Moreover, they never sue the public employee who made the mistake. The cops may not have millions, but they surely have $40,000.
"Moreover, they never sue the public employee who made the mistake."
Qualified immunity. Basically, so long as a public employee or official acts in the course of his/her duties and doesn't do something that a reasonable person would know is wrong, he/she can't be made to pay personally. Their employer -- the city, transit authority, etc. -- could be liable, but not the employee personally.
The rule is there so that officials like police don't have to fear being stuck paying a personal judgment in the thousands of dollars for performing their duties where they're acting in a potentially debatable area. Which for cops is basically anytime they arrest someone who they didn't directly witness doing something clearly and unequivocably illegal.
"The cops may not have millions, but they surely have $40,000."
I have to side with the cops on this one. They saw someone JUMP A TURNSTILE. The person then claims that they paid but the turnstile wouldn't open. Call me a cynic, but I imagine that lots of people who evade fares claim when caught that they paid. Do you propose that the cops were wrong and liable **personally** because they didn't immediately apologize and let him go? "We're sorry. You've paid [because you say you have, though the turnstile indicates you haven't or it would admit you] so we've got to let you go." WTF?!
Reminds me of a scene from "Untouchables": a beat cop (played by Sean Connery) comes upon Eliot Ness (Kevin Costner) throwing news clippings in the river off the deserted lower level of the Michigan Avenue Bridge at night. After telling him not to throw paper in the river, he asks Ness why he's packing a gun. Ness says he's a Treasury agent. The cop nods, turns around, and continues on his patrol. Ness yells at the cop (basically) "Hold on a minute! Why did you turn your back on me when you knew I had a gun. You only had my word that I'm a Treasury officer."
I have to side with the cops on this one. They saw someone JUMP A TURNSTILE. The person then claims that they paid but the turnstile wouldn't open. Call me a cynic, but I imagine that lots of people who evade fares claim when caught that they paid. Do you propose that the cops were wrong and liable **personally** because they didn't immediately apologize and let him go? "We're sorry. You've paid [because you say you have, though the turnstile indicates you haven't or it would admit you] so we've got to let you go." WTF?!
I see two issues here:
1) Jumping a turnstile is an unwise idea even if you're certain that your card malfunctioned. I know, having to troop over to the booth and explain your predicament to the Station Agent is a pain, and you might even end up having to pay an unnecessary fare, but jumping just isn't the risk.
2) While I don't know all the details of this case, it does seem very strange that the police kept the subject in custody for 19 hours - all for an offense that in most cases involves the issuance of a summons without actual custody. I know, things might have been delayed if the subject lacked ID or if the police had to check for outstanding warrants, but 19 hours is a long time.
What if you're going to do the hurdles in the Olympics and want to practice by jumping the turnstile? Inform someone official of your devious scheme, swipe the card, rotate the arm and hop across.
Several times on PATCO I have had large items I was carrying rotate the turnstyle before I was able to pass through and was forced to jump over. Also when it wouldn't let me out once I was forced to jump. PATCO has no agents and sometimes when through no fault of your own you get stuck its best just to jump.
I did not see the article but I do have comments:
If the turnstile said swipe again and they went under instead of coming to the booth then the stopping of the customer was within the rules. Imagine this: You go into Biggy Department Store and buy an expensive Wigget with you store charge. You have million dollar limit with guaranteed approval. The sales clerk is busy fighting an cranky cash register wjhich is asking them to swipe the card again. You are impatient and leave. STore charges you with shoplifting. They are right!
Until the cash register records your purchase and they give you the receipt you did not pay.
to avoid problems:
1- Buy a holder for your card
2- If it keeps saying swipe again, return to the booth- do not "jump".
3- Ask Transit to keep the booths open. Imagine an unattended entrance with just MVMs and high wheels and the message "Swipe again here".We could assist you/ (We'd see that the wheel deducted a fare and we'd buzz you in or let you throught the service gate.)
>>> You have million dollar limit with guaranteed approval. The sales clerk is busy fighting an cranky cash register wjhich is asking them to swipe the card again. You are impatient and leave. STore charges you with shoplifting. They are right! <<<
A slightly flawed analogy if the Metrocard was an unlimited one. In the store situation the arrangement would have to be that for a fixed fee, paid in advance, the shopper could carry out of the store anything he/she wanted, but could do it only once every twenty minutes for the next thirty days, with the shopper stopping at the counter to allow the store to restart the twenty minute clock. In that case a shop lifting charge would be appropriate only if the shopper had not paid the fee, or had left the store with merchandise within the previous twenty minutes. Detaining the shopper until this was ascertained would be reasonable if it could be done within a reasonably short time. If because of the store's computer problem, the facts could not be immediately ascertained, and the shopper were arrested and held in jail for 19 hours, the shopper would be entitled to compensation.
Tom
Amen, Brother! Amen!
I did not see the article ...
The article is still available. It says he passed through the turnstile before being arrested for fare evasion.
>>> The article is still available <<<
The link did not work just now. I got into a loop at the NY Times between sign in and a screen which said the location had been moved.
Tom
It still works for me.
OK. Anytime there is a problem with a card or token please return to the booth. You will be first in line and let us help you! If you jump we are required to challenge you (or any customer) ny sayiong "Pay your fare" and if a cop is around...
Again, please return to the booth! Even if the guy paid, dont take it into your own hands!
The Daily News article on this case (October 11, 2000, page 17) indicated that the youth in question used HIS GIRLFRIEND'S student Metrocard. If that's the case, then it was right for him to be charged with SOMETHING, but it's possible that he was charged with the WRONG thing.
David
Is this a reflection of mr. LA Rail System?
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/losangeles/blue/lab-florence-01.jpg
Yes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you want to see a better picture of him, you can go to Yahoo and there's a club or two he belongs to. His profile is listed under "asiaticcommunications" and there is a decent photo of him and his wife on the LA Blue Line along with his profile.
Yes sir that picture was taken on the first day of the los angeles red line free ride day. Only two lines were operational back then.
The blue was fully operational from 7thMetro to long beach. They wanted to continue this line thru downtown to the to be completed in 2003 pasadena blue line segment. However now it will start at the Union Station / gateway center with no connections to the long beach blue line!! WHY DIDNT IT CONNECT TO THE LONG BEACH LINE ( damn it )!!!
The photo was taken at the blue line washington station with a cheap wal mart type tripod 3M store brand film speed 400 Olympus Infinity Twin camera set on automatic with a timer set to go off after a 30 second delay then i posed with my wife ( married since 1972 ) the end of the blue line car heading northbound is barely seen on this shot. I also did some other shooting that day as well as you can see...
If had known the internet was coming i would have used kodak gold 400
or fuji 400 instead. ( oh well )
see you in nyc for project redbird 4 6 2 5 7 i begin shooting the # 4 starting the morning rush hour on the #4 hopefully on rush hour tracks
starting october 23rd 2000, the 6 on tuesday. the 24th 2 on the 25th
return to the 5 on the 26th finally the wonderful # 7 flushing on friday!the 27th. All shooting in 10 hour formats each 8mm tape 5 hours long hopefull rush & regular service mostly railfan window shots. 0.4 natural light lux & wide angle lens, unlimited power supply gods speed tired feet wish me well i will need it.( tired tired feet ) !!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
5:30 am... the alarm went off...
5:31 am... hit the snooze button, so that i could hear the alarm go off a few more times
7:12 am... finally got out of bed...
7:30 am... read era bulletin... was especially interested in the david ross insert with instructions to subtalkers about proper posting procedure
7:40 am - 8:35 am worked feverishly trying to round off infinity... almost did it...
8:40 am - 1:08 pm stared vacantly into space trying to remember what i wanted to do today
1:10 pm - logged on to bustalk
bustalk
1:20 pm listened to the baseball playoffs on radio
baseball
3:00 pm went to my paranoia therapy group
group therapy
4:30 pm listened to some relaxing music on the radio
soothing music
6:00 pm retired to my motorman's cab for the evening
motorman's cab
LOL. You mean you didn't have any tutoring appointments?:-)
Wow, and I thought the TA workers had it bad :-)
Hello All.
I've heard some rumors over the years (and again this weekend) that Storm King Mountain on the Hudson once had a funicular railway similar if not nearly identical to the Mt. Beacon funicular, which survives in an abandoned state.
I'm aware of funiculars that once operated in Palenville (Otis Elevating Railway), Yonkers, and Jersey City (and the never-completed Dunderberg Sprial Railway), but I have never seen a reference to one on Storm King.
If this is true, is there any source of information on this?
BTW, funimag.com has links to all sorts of neat stuff on the topic of cog/rack railways and funiculars.
Any advice much appreciated - THANX.
(I'm aware of funiculars that once operated in Palenville (Otis Elevating Railway), Yonkers, and Jersey City (and the
never-completed Dunderberg Sprial Railway), but I have never seen a reference to one on Storm King.)
Where was the one in Yonkers, my hometown? I am aware of many "city stairs," now ideal places to get mugged or raped. And I am aware of a private house on Overcliff St in Park Hill that had its own elevator down to Broadway and the Yonkers spur of the Putnam Division. But not any funiculars.
Hello Larry.
My understanding was the exact opposite regarding the elevator in Yonkers. I thought that the elevator/funicular was public or semi-public in its operation (and access of a station on the Getty Square Branch) and that the headhouse became a residence AFTER it ceased operation. I equated it to the small "funiculaire" in Quebec City. You seem to suggest that it provided access solely to a private residence, which may have been true, but it's not what I had been led to believe. Obviously I never saw it operate. Perhaps you (or someone) can clarify this, I know nothing about this installation and wouldn't mind some info or a photo.
I vaguely recall a mention of it in Fred Gallo's (?) Putnam Division book, which I have at home but haven't read in a while, so my recollection may be rusty.
(My understanding was the exact opposite regarding the elevator in Yonkers. I thought that the elevator/funicular was public or
semi-public in its operation (and access of a station on the Getty Square Branch) and that the headhouse became a residence
AFTER it ceased operation.)
Nope, it was an elevator for a private residence, abeit a huge one, though it might have been used by the neighbors. Other neighbors probably used the city stairs down to the Getty Square branch. I grew up near there (in far more modest circumstances). My Dad delivered newspapers in the area as a boy in the 1940s. He showed it to me and told me about it on a walk around the neighborhood years later.
The house is still there, but not in the best repair. If you ever go there (not likely given where you now live) you can see that the massive house matches the headhouse which, as you say, is now a residence.
A lot of history in the area, and some absolutely beautiful houses in Park Hill. It's probably a good place to live relatively cheap, if you don't have kids to send to school.
I asked Chuck Benjamin (writer of the regular column Up and Down the Incline Scene in Trolley Fare) if he heard of anything on Storm King, and he said "no".
i remember reading about a cog railroad at bear mountain which is close to storm king
i remember reading about a cog railroad at bear mountain which is close to storm king
Rode the HBLR (nice equipment and ride, but seemed to go very, very slow; also, automated announcements worked on the way out, but T/O was announcing on the way back to Exchange Place) to the end of the line, 34th Street in Bayonne, and got off to do some exploring. I wanted to get an idea of the neighborhood and the city, cause I may soon be in the market for a house of some kind, and I've been reading about how HBLR is sparking interest in Bayonne real estate. My impression was that this city has a long way to go before attracting home buyers (of course, they may like it that way). Don't get me wrong, it's a nice little town with some decent houses and tree-lined streets. But the main street appeared a bit run-down and desolate, and the city in general seemed depressed. On the way, I saw many new apartments and condos being erected in Jersey City, which looked very attractive. This may be an option, but I think I would rather look for a single-family house, once the market cools a bit. Aslo, I don't imagine the schools are very good in either city, which is always a concern.
What is the historical cultural and ethnic make-up of Bayonne? Does anyone have any thoughts, impressions, or other info about the city?
I wanted to get an idea of the neighborhood and the city, cause I may soon be in the market for a house of some kind, and I've been reading about how HBLR is sparking interest in Bayonne real estate. My impression was that this city has a long way to go before attracting home buyers (of course, they may like it that way). Don't get me wrong, it's a nice little town with some decent houses and tree-lined streets. But the main street appeared a bit run-down and desolate,
and the city in general seemed depressed. On the way, I saw many new apartments and condos being erected in Jersey City, which looked very attractive. This may be an option, but I think I would rather look for a single-family house, once the market cools a bit. Aslo, I don't imagine the schools are very good in either city, which is always a concern.
What is the historical cultural and ethnic make-up of Bayonne? Does anyone have any thoughts, impressions, or other info about the city?
I haven't been in Bayonne for a few years, but back in 1995 and 1996 my impression was that of a reasonably stable, unpretentious working-class community - the sort of place where people set down roots that last for generations, and take pride in their neighborhood and town despite its modesty. It was not affluent but not depressed in any way that I could discern. I am a bit surprised about your observations concerning the main street; either we look at things differently or conditions have deteriorated in the past few years.
As far as schools are concerned, the person I knew who lived in Bayonne had a daughter in first or second grade, and seemed to be satisfied with school quality. Her daughter was doing quite advanced work for that young an age. Whether that observation can be generalized past the earliest grades, or whether things have changed recently, I couldn't tell you. My friend no longer lives in Bayonne and I haven't had much contact with her for the past couple of years.
If you're looking for a single-family house, Bayonne's probably not your cup of tea. Most of the housing stock consists of two- and three-family dwellings and some larger buildings. There might be some single-families down near the southern tip of the town, an area in which I seldom travelled but which seemed nicer than 'hoods farther to the north. Of course, that part of Bayonne is distant from transit.
I am a bit surprised about your observations concerning the main street; either we look at things differently or conditions have deteriorated in the past few years.
I guess I should have said "old" or "mature" or "quiet," rather than "depressed" and "desolate." I didn't mean it was like the South Bronx or anything, but I'll stick by "run-down." There were many stores open for business on the street, but mostly Mom and Pop operations -- not that there's anything wrong with that. In fact, I kind of like to patronize my locally-owned laundromat, dry-cleaners, bar, etc. in my current Astoria neighborhood. But there wasn't the foot-traffic I'm used to, and it looked like most of the businesses there have not been rennovated since the 1950s. It was eerie, not seeing much activity there. It was almost like a ghost town. Of course, it was overcast that day, and about to rain perhaps, so that may have had something to do with it. I think I just expected it to be more "city" and less "suburb." I could tell that people did take pride in their homes there, even though those homes have probably been decorated the same since 1952.
I am a bit surprised about your observations concerning the main street; either we look at things differently or conditions have deteriorated in the past few years.
I guess I should have said "old" or "mature" or "quiet," rather than "depressed" and "desolate." I didn't mean it was like the South Bronx or anything, but I'll stick by "run-down." There were many stores open for business on the street, but mostly Mom and Pop operations -- not that there's anything wrong with that. In fact, I kind of like to patronize my locally-owned laundromat, dry-cleaners, bar, etc. in my current Astoria neighborhood. But there wasn't the foot-traffic I'm used to, and it looked like most of the businesses there have not been rennovated since the 1950s. It was eerie, not seeing much activity there.
I see what you mean. Not too many national retailers have set up shop in downtown Bayonne. And as you noted, most of the local shops aren't what you'd call au courant. Car ownership in Bayonne probably is higher than in Jersey City or Hoboken (and far higher than in NYC, of course), given the town's mediocre transit links, which means that most of its residents do their heavy-duty shopping elsewhere. For instance, my friend who lived in Bayonne drove to the Newport Mall for most shopping ... at least she did, until she soured on the place after slipping on a spilled beverage and falling hard, and two mall security guards who saw the incident displayed an extreme lack of interest, let alone concern, in her predicament. At any rate, pardon the digression, downtown Bayonne shops most likely are in the sort of financial limbo under which they make just enough money to stay in business, but aren't in any position to upgrade or renovate. Hence the "frozen in amber" impression you got.
I suppose my views of downtown Bayonne were more charitable than they should have been because at the time (mainly 1995 and 1996), I was lving in a part of Connecticut where it was remarkable to see a downtown in which more than half of the storefronts were occupied, period. Today, living on Long Island, I never cease to be amused by items in Newsday and elsewhere calling for the revitalization of local downtown. To me, most Long Island downtowns look quite healthy indeed, and as far as I'm concerned the Newsday writers ought to go to certain places in Connecticut, just to put things in perspective.
Also remember, that most 'mom and pop' places stay actively involved in the community :sponsoring softball teams, sposoring local events, etc,etc. Where places like Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Barnes and Noble, etc,etc DON'T do that and suck all the local money up and send it out of town......[And they DO give a pittance to a local cause they make damn sure that there are cameras there..to show how 'involved' they are with the comunity...]
Historically, Bayonne has been a working-class district, with the ethnic make-up heavily Italian, with some Polish, Irish and Greek in the mix.
Many of the people who have lived there for generations depended for their livelihoods primarily on the rail and waterports of Bayonne. Over the years Port Elizabeth has become the main shipping port area for New York/New Jersey, so Bayonne's prominence in this area has been overshadowed. That might be a reason for the more depressed look of the area in general.
And despite the arrival of HBLR, unless there is an infusion of Capital into Bayonne, the light-rail line will remain what it is now -- a curious novelty.
BMTman
Due to heypaul dropping some clues I was able to determine with a little research that his birthday is Jan 9th, 1913, the same as Richard Nixon.
I've not met heypaul in person, but have seen pictures of him. I must say that he carries his 87 years very well, and does not look his age.
I had no idea that he was this old, and I think that we should all show him more respect considering his advanced years.
great detective work karl...
you said: "I had no idea that he was this old, and I think that we should all show him more respect considering his advanced years."
thank you karl... if i don't get more respect, you won't have heypaul to kick around anymore...
"you won't have heypaul to kick around anymore."
Why do I feel like I have heard something like this before, it's sort of deja vu!
heypaul, you're too tough to die.
Plus, that picture in the basement does a lot for the appearence.
Is it also true that one of the bystanders in the aftermath of the Malbone St. disaster is heypaul?
Also, extensive research has discovered that heypaul, the Malbone picture and the R9 cab will all appear in next week's Weekly World News, on sale at supermarkets and newstands all over the country.
Right date - wrong year.
Right date - wrong year.
heypaul said it himself: he and Nixon share the same birthday.
Well, I share the same birthday with Roy Campanella, Kathleen Quinlan, Meg Ryan, and Jodie Foster, but we were all born in different years.
>>> I share the same birthday with Roy Campanella, Kathleen Quinlan, Meg Ryan, and Jodie Foster, but we were all born in different years. <<<
Where is Pigs when we need him? I will stand in for him and point out that you do not share the same birthday with the others you mentioned. You share the same birthday anniversary.
Tom
I was riding on MARTA one night about a month ago, and we got to Garrnett, and the power was out in the station, it was about 11:00pm. At first I thought I was seeing things, but it was dark on the platform. There were emergency lights, but that was it. Garrnett is an elevated station, so it wasn't completely dark. Anyway, business carried on as if the power was on. No one really gave a crap. My question is, is there any type of procedure for when the power goes out in a station? What measures are taken so that any type of unwanted behavior is prevented?
If a NYCTA station is completely dark(and not partially lit), the train crew is to notify Control Center who in turn will order the crew to bypass the affected station and all trains will bypass that station until the problem is resolved. However, if only one platform is dark(example: the southbound plat at 18th Ave. on the N is dark but the northbound is lit), then all S/B trains will bypass and all N/B trains will make a regular station stop. This is done to avoid any potential serious injuries(lawsuits) that could occur if a drag was to take place and the C/R was unable to see it due to the darkness.
From a Station Agent's viewpoint: If we see a problem with lighting failure we would hit our EBCS and police would be dispatched along with a station supervisor and a lighting maintainer.
Would passengers stuck on the platform get a refund if they can't crossover to the other platform?
You can NEVER get a cash refund of a subway fare. In that case a "block ticket" would be issued by the token clerk which would grant the holder one free fare for a future ride. That ticket could be used to cross over to the other platform or to another subway line, can be used on a bus or it can be held for later as long as it's used within 48 hours of issuance. No subway-->bus or bus-->subway transfers are allowed with a block ticket but bus-->bus transfers are allowed.
There are limited cases where they would be given two block tickets . I'm sure we'd ask the supervisor if the customer asks. (I'd ask the supervisor.)
> No subway-->bus or bus-->subway transfers are allowed with a
> block ticket but bus-->bus transfers are allowed.
Yes but if you had used your Metrocard to enter the station just prior to being issued the block ticket you could still use the transfer on your Metrocard when you reach your connecting bus (assuming that you still had enough time).
Right, Dave!
next question- What if the turnstiles go dark? they have battery backup so if the turnstile let you enter then your transfer is on the card. If the booth has power you can wait for the crowd to diminish and then ask your friendly neighborhood Station Agent to check the card.
It's very expensive, there is no way around it sadly but it's worth it. Thats the only con.
These are the pro's:
The pollution will go down alot on and around the BQE
It's cheeper then the Verrazano Narrows Bridge ($3.00 compared to $7.00 no contest)
Time constraints:
Time from Verrazano Bridge to Manhattan on BQE: 30 minutes-2 hours
Time from St. George Terminal to South Ferry by Ferry- 30 minutes
But with the connection
Time on Second Avenue- Staten Island Connection 5-10 minutes
A new breed or subway cars will be made, that look like subway cars but can reach speed of up to 100 m.p.h on the standard voltage in the NYCTA so that trains will reach 70 m.p.h in the Second Avenue- Staten Island Connection Tunnel.
The possibilites are great, the tunnel will pay for its self. Its worth it. It will not be as great as the Channel Tunnel but its just as important.
Christopher Rivera
I will only support a new Trans Hudson tunnel if it is built by the Pennsylvania RR or subsiduary firm.
I guess it will have to be done w/o your "support," whatever that means. PRR has been OOB for quite a few years now.
IF(and that's a big if) a subway tunnel to S.I.was to be built, it would be from 95 St. on the R.
No it wouldn't. Simply put, it doesn't make any sense. Why go through Brooklyn, on a line that already has a 45minute trip to DOWNTOWN Manhattan, when you can connect directly to it? This on top of the 30-45 minutes it takes as it is to go as far as Clifton from Eltingville and Mariners Harbor.
-Hank
A tunnel from SI to lower manhattan is what dosen't make sense. That would be about 5.5 miles. Near the verrazano it is only 1 mile, even with a 2mi spur from SIRT it would be much cheaper. Another option would be to go thru Jersey and under the Kill Van Kull (fat chance MTA will do that).
>>> That would be about 5.5 miles.Near the verrazano it is only 1 mile, <<<
A shorter tunnel is not a bargain if it does not go where you want it to. And don't forget the law of unintended consequences. A subway link between the S.I. and Manhattan would mean the end of the ferry, and possibly a change in the character of S.I.
Tom
But it does go where people want. Just instead of a 5-mile long tunnel having to be built, a 1-mile tunnel and an existing subway line could be used to get to the same place.
Yes, but it would simply create a longer and more unbearable trip. It's FASTER to Midtown to use the ferry and subway then by going through Brooklyn, even discounting the time it takes for the bus to get to 86th St.
-Hank
>>> It's FASTER to Midtown to use the ferry and subway then by going through Brooklyn <<<
Add to that the problems that increased subway traffic between Brooklyn and Manhattan would cause.
Tom
Umm, no it isn't. I raced an SIR-Ferry trip with an S-79-R trip, and even local all the way I reached Whitehall 4 minutes before the boat. And there was a 7 minute wait for that R. To midtown, a transfer to the B from the R vs. the 1 or R from the ferry would give me about 10 extra minutes.
And, we all know that this tunnel will be built around the same time the Manhattan Bridge is 100% fixed, so why not route the new line up 4th ave exp -> Dekalb Bypass -> Manny B.
Running time on the R from 95 St to Whitehall is 32 minutes.
Ferry running time is 25 minutes.
How can I believe this?
At what point did you board the 79? DId you board in Eltingville, at the same time a train left the station?
-Hank
In Old Town, the same exact moment a train left the station.
On a weekday? During the AM rush? When?
-Hank
A 5.5 miles cross-harbour tunnel... Can it be possible?
Sure it is. It wouldn't be cheap, though, that's for sure.
Nothing is cheap in NY. The VZ wasn't cheap. The Lincoln Tunnel wasn't cheap. You need to spend money to get things done.
It makes more sense from a logical standpoint to build the tunnel to Manhattan instead of Brooklyn. It's the destination of 90% of the people.
-Hank
OK Hank, let's say it goes 5.5 miles from Manhattan to Staten Island as us your choice. Would it be the #'s 6, 9 or 1 train that would make the trip----or would there be multiple lines. From Brooklyn it would have to be the R, but there seems to be more choice if the line runs from Manhattan. Does anyone know for sure which line would run out to Staten Island? When it got there would be run the entire borough and would it be elevated or below ground?
The thing is, not one of these lines seems to have been designed with Staten Island in mind. The R, the 1/9 and the 6 are locals, and would be fairly slow going anywhere past the absolute bottom of Manhattan. Only the 5 from Bowling Green seems to make sense, since it's express most of the way, usually ends at Bowling Green anyway, and maybe they could extend off the S. Ferry Loop somehow.
All in all, though, it can't really be worth the billions of dollars and tens of years for the relatively few commuters who would bennefit.
:)Andrew
The South Ferry loop is directly below street level and right next to the shoreline. You couldn't tie in an underwater tunnel because it's not deep enough. Any subway tunnel from Manhattan to Staten Island would have to duck beneath the existing lines at the Battery, and the BMT Whitehall St. station is pretty deep as it is, not to mention possibly the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel.
Am I the only one that is seeing this -- You can't connect SIRT to 1,9 or any other IRT lines!!! A 75 foot r-44 would be a tight squeeze in the SF loop. You would have to connect something like that to the N,R. You think Bay Ridgers are pissed now, wait until you cut their service in half. The money needed to build a tunnel across Upper NY bay would be better spent building another tunnel across the east river replacing the MB.
SIR Car Length History:
67' SIR Cars
85' LIRR Cars
75' NYCT B-div cars
Why not add 51' NYCT A-div cars to the list?
D'oh! Whay didn't I think of that?
Look. I'm against this anyway.
:)Andrew
Hey guys,
Just to put my $7.00 into this, How about extending the SIRT over the VZ ? That has to be cheaper than a tunnel. After clearing the bridge, the trains can connect to the "R" at 86th St. Of course, the TA wouldn't put the tracks on the extreme ends of the bridge......or would they?
JDL
(How about extending the SIRT over the VZ)
The VZ can't handle the weight of heavy rail trains. Hence my idea of turning the SIRT into a busway, and running the buses over the VZ and up the rebuilt Gowanus on their own lanes instead.
Are you sure? The GWB can but the VZ can't? Did RM have the carrying capacity of the bridge reduced when he made sure that it would only carry cars?
There are major differences in the way the bridges were designed. The GWB was designed to be able to carry trolley cars, while the VZ was designed for rubber-tired vehicles only, with grades that are much too steep for steel-steel traction. The approaches to the GWB are right into the sides of the cliffs on each side of the river, thus they're shorter and not the least bit steep.
-Hank
The lower level of the GWB was originally intended for subway trains, so they factored that into the bridge's design. That is one strong bridge.
The open area on the lower level is designed for trains
Peace,
ANDEE
The open area isn't wide enough for 2 traffic lanes with those truss supports. The entire lower deck was supposed to be used for transit. As it is paved now, it can't do both.
-Han
How underutilized is the lower deck? I always hear of the upper deck being jammed, not the lower. Maybe they can use that extra space for 2 subway tracks.
That's because they can see the upper deck from their helicopters and traffic cams. If the upper deck is jammed for a reason other than an accident, so is the lower. The VZ can't support trains anyway, and the grades are even too steep for subway MUs.
-Hank
>>>If the upper deck is jammed for a reason other than an accident, so is the lower.<<<
Why is this so on the VZ? This is not the case with the George Washington Bridge.
Peace,
ANDEE
The GWB goes into a hill on both sides. In fact, you go DOWNHILL from New Jersey to cross the bridge. It was also designed from the beginning to carry trolleys, not subway trains.
-Hank
What is really needed is a subway tunnel going into Manhattan. I have no idea why this project was never undertaken instead of doing the 2nd Ave line. Someone on the MTA board must not care for the residents of Staten Island. Think of how much commuter time would be cut if a tunnel were built. If they are looking for money, they should have a special transit bond or tax corporate businesses for it.
What is really needed is a subway tunnel going into Manhattan. I have no idea why this project was never undertaken instead of doing the 2nd Ave line. Someone on the MTA board must not care for the residents of Staten Island. Think of how much commuter time would be cut if a tunnel were built. If they are looking for money, they should have a special transit bond or tax corporate businesses for it.
Why not pay for it by placing a special surcharge on real estate taxes (and, while you're at it, imposing a residential rent tax) in Richmond County?
The freight rail connection to Manhattan should have been built ages ago, but the highway mentality prevailed at the time. How about getting Norfolk Southern and CSX to jointly fund the project, since they will be the ones primarily using it. Any ideas out there?
It's an interesting idea, but for it to work it will need to be at least 3 lanes wide (preferably 4, with the center lanes carrying limited stop and express buses). The two-track ROW will only fit 2 lanes, so to get a third or fourth lane that means buying land and major $$$. Not to mention protests about pollution, noise, etc.
You can always change the clearance on the SIR. Main impediment to a connection is the depth of the existing subway vs. the depth that a new tunnel would need to be.
-Hank
What about connecting that tunnel to Whitehall BMT. 75 foot cars do run through the tunnel to Brooklyn. Perhaps the S.I. Tunnel could be new lower level to WHitehall.(Yes- I know it will never be built.)
That train could be the T (for Tottenville) and run express to 57/7th during rush and mid-day and local on weekends, overnight.
What about connecting that tunnel to Whitehall BMT[?]
You could BUT R train service is already bad enough as it is, to do somthing like that you would have make room for SIRT in the schedule. That would'nt be so bad if the MB was open. As for them running express, the express tracks only go to canal st whereupon they dirvert over MB. Switching over would be redundant.
What about connecting the tunnel to 59th or 36th Streets? Then you can go directly on the express tracks into DeKalb, and switch wherever you want. It would certainly make a good destination for the 'M' train, which is underused as it is.
A 1939 Board of Transportation proposal had a connection to Staten Island leaving the 4th Ave BMT Line (Brooklyn) at about 68th Street. I believe a second connection would have left a proposed IND line under Ft Hamilton Parkway at approximately the same locationb. Also, the BMT "bridge" over 65th Street is 4 tracks wide in anticipation of such a connection 15 years earlier.
--Mark
It's not the length, it's where it goes. The destinations of 90% of the users of such a tunnel would be Manhattan. It's already a 45-minute trip from 86st to Whitehall St. It's a 40 minute trip from Tottenville to St. George, 30 to Clifton. A trip to Midtown is actually faster via the ferry-subway combo than it is to go all-subway through Brooklyn. It simply doesn't make sense to go the 'slow way'. As long as you're going to spend the bucks, you better do it where it will have the most effect.
-Hank
To get the most bang for the buck, extend the HBLR to SI over the Bayonne Bridge and let pax transfer to the PATH at Exchange Place or Harborside.
A bi-level subway-freight rail tunnel from SI to Brooklyn (in place of the planned cross-harbor tunnel) could be run under the Narrows and then up Fort Hamliton Pkwy. or underneath I-278 to 62nd St., where the freight tunnel would hook up with the NY&A for access to the Brooklyn piers, while the subway line could hook up with the Sea Beach tracks, giving it access to the Fourth Ave. express lines.
Even if you put a stop at 86th-Ft. Hamlinton Pkwy, if you rerouted the B to run to Staten Island (leaving the West End for the W-Braodway Local) you would only have four stops in Brooklyn with the DeKalb bypass -- 86th, 59th, 36th and Pacific -- before you get to Manhattan.
From Grand Street to the first stop in Staten Island (Lily Pond Ave. or Hylan Blvd.), would be a distance of about eight miles. Four stops in eight miles compares favorably with the high-speed surburban routes Metro in DC or BART in S.F.-Oakland run, and would not require a 5 1/2 mile tunnel (which would also put the Staten Island Ferry out of business, BTW).
Actually, a tunnel built by the MTA would be longer than the 5.5-mile ferry route (I'm assuming that figure is right), since it would need to curve to the east in order to remain within the boundaries of New York State. I don't think a New York State agency could legally dig or operate trains through a tunnel under New Jersey waters.
It is a nice fantasy, but it isn't going to happen any time soon.
I don't think a New York State agency could legally dig or operate trains through a tunnel under New Jersey waters.
It isn't a big deal. The NJ Section of tunnel would have no access and NJ would not spend anything on it.
Then again, doesn't DC have a stake in the Woodrow Wilson Bridge?
Then again, doesn't DC have a stake in the Woodrow Wilson Bridge?
Yes. It passes through a narrow salient of District territory around the north shore of the Potomac. There's probably no more than 100 feet of bridge involved. Dunno if the replacement also will pass through the District.
I know that, I was asking if that small piece causes them to have some control over the bridge.
But, unlike a state, the district has no sovereignty(sp?) and is merely an instrumentality of the federal govt.
It is however, able to pass all of their own laws and ordinances. The budget has to be approved by Congress (and the pres), and AFAIK, they can also overturn District legislation.
Have some control?
They operate the bridge! (at least the opening/closing controls). And yes the new bridge will go thru the distict, but I doubt if DC is even putting in a dime of the costs. In the end the feds will pick most of the tab.
Is the new bridge going to have a bike lane, closing a sorely missing link?
Unless the plans have changed since I've read about them in the Washington Post, it will.
Nobody mentioned the obvious route. Build a tunnel from the Rockaways to Staten Island. Then you could extend the "A" from Rockaway Park to Staten Island. Then Staten Islanders can get a one seat ride to 207 Street in Manhattan. Think of the other advantages. Racing fans from S.I. can get a one seat ride to Aqueduct. Also one seat to Kennedy Airport. Staten Islanders could transfer to a myriad of other lines at Broadway Junction or even Hoyt-Schermerhorn. (I was going to say a plethora of other lines but didn't want to start a new thread) Also for faster express service they could reopen the Rockaway Branch of the LIRR and connect it to the Queens Blvd IND. If that was not possible because of the NIMBY's they could reconnect the subway to the LIRR at Far Rockaway and Staten Islanders could have access to Penn or Flatbush Av through the Five Towns & Valley Stream.
If none of the above ideas work they could always rebuild the Chestnut Street Connection and the Staten Islanders can access Manhattan over the Williamsburg Bridge. Then they could have a one-seat ride right down Centre St/Broad Street to lower Manhattan where they could get the ferry back home!!!
Don't get me wrong, it's an inventive idea. But that would be one long, slow, indirect trip.
And the distance from Staten Island to the Rockaways might be even longer than the distance to Manhattan.
Yes, but , ONE seat ride. The user could sit on his/her fat lazy @$$ for hours on the hard plastic. A railfan could go into a coma from end to end.
avid
But it takes forever for a local train (or any NYC subway train) to get anywhere with a few exceptions so unless this train to SI operates express in Brooklyn, no one is going to use it.
I'm even if the SI trains ran super-express, DeKalb would be a severe bottleneck.
With a little gravel, a roadbed could be made down the BQE in no time! -especially since all of those people on the train will be off the road.
;-)
Dave
Well, then, a major reconfiguration of DeKalb and the 4th Ave. trackage could be included in the project. And while you're at it, you build a two-level, four-track tube to replace the Manny B, and upgrade the Montague tunnels so that SI trains could serve the financial district.
There is no way subway tunnel from SI could be justified. We might as well offer to send a limo to pick up Staten Islanders and carry them, it would be cheaper.
Staten Island is the size of Brooklyn, with 1/6 the people. Staten Islanders don't want any more, and the zoning reflects that -- fully developed areas of the borough are already losing population, and the borough as a whole should top out soon. To allow Staten Islanders to walk to the train, as Brooklynites can, you'd need a whole subway network the size of Brooklyn's. But with so few people per line, those trains would be 5/6 empty -- you'd have to shut down Brooklyn's system to pay for it. As it is, SIRT covers less than 10 percent of it's operating costs, vs. 75 percent plus on the subway and 35 to 45 percent on the commuter railroads.
Unlike the other boroughs, everyone has a car on Staten Island. Park-n-ride could work, but SIRT stations have no place to park. The road network is such that even if you built a new line just for park-n-ride, you'd create a traffic bottleneck getting to it. A direct ferry from Great Kills was killed by neighborhood opposition -- people were afraid non-locals would park in the neighborhood.
I've thought about this a long time. The best thing to do would be to convert the SIRT line, and the north shore line, to a reserved, grade separated busway, with local buses pulling off in "stations" and express buses running through over the Verranzano. Express buses could travel through SI neighborhoods, get up on the busway, and then roll. Add an express bus only lane on the Gowanus (if it ever gets rebuilt) and you could chop 20 minutes off the express bus ride to Manhattan. New electric or hybrid buses would make this more palatable than today's diesels. It's a shame having so little use of such a valuable ROW.
In addition, perhaps parking garages could be built over the Sea Beach line, for drivers from Staten Island and subway-poor neighborhoods of southern Brooklyn. The cost could be subsidized -- 50 percent more for a combined parking fee and Metrocard, compared with a Metrocard alone. If the Manhattan Bridge were ever finished, Staten Islanders could park then ride a really fast Sea Beach line to Times Square. The Gowanus only backs up after the Belt merge -- park-n-riders would get off before that.
Might any of this happen? Probably not. But it makes a lot more sense than a subway tunnel to a low-density borough.
Stretch limos I hope.
...fully developed areas of the borough are already losing population...
What areas are losing population? That contradicts what I'm seeing here, even in so-so north shore neighborhoods. Molinari wants to re-zone the whole island, and locally we are looking at downzoning from R3-1 to R-2. I think it's about 20 years too late in both cases.
We all know a subway will never be built to S.I. So in reality the SIRT to ferry and the express bus system will be our transit network. We need more park-n-rides for x-bus riders similar to the arrangement at the S.I. mall. The x-bus system is the best it's ever been - if you live along the Hylan Blvd/Richmond Road routes because they have the quickest access to the VNB & Gowanus with the least SIE miles. But if a subway is ever built please make sure there are no stations anywhere near my house.
[If a subway is ever built, please make sure there are no stations anywhere near my house.]
That's almost a NIMBY philosophy - we want subway service, but not the stations; we want bus service, but not on our streets. And don't expect us to actually pay for it.
(Molinari & Co. are still upset about the express-bus fare roll-back. The problem isn't that the fare went from $4 to $3, but that EVERYBODY's fare went down: How can the rest of the city pay our fair share when they're also getting the same deal?).
> But if a subway is ever built please make sure there are no stations anywhere near my house.
You're not serious about that statement, are you?
You don't understand. Staten Island is NOT a land of 5-story multiple-dwellings, 3-family fully-attached brick buildings, and other types of multiple family residences. Most Staten Island housing is 1- or 2-story single to 3 family, detached or semi-attached homes, all with backyards, front yards, multiple trees and a pool. The population density isn't such that one can always walk to the stations. The big call out here is for park-and-ride lots, and since the stations are mostly in residential areas, and park/ride lots are a nightmare of traffic and pollution, you wouldn't want one near your house either.
-Hank
The population density isn't such that one can always walk to the stations. The big call out here is for park-and-ride lots, and since the stations are mostly in residential areas, and park/ride lots are a nightmare of traffic and pollution, you wouldn't want one near your house either.
Not to mention the fact that many SIRT stations are in fully developed areas, so adding large parking lots would require massive condemnations and demolition.
Extend the SIR tracks to Fresh Kills, put up a 100,000 car parking garage, and have a "super express" to the ferry :)
That would be one humungous garage.:-)
And if they built it under ground, just think of all the interesting stuff they'd dig up.
Actually, Fresh Kills is 2,200 acres, or ~96,000,000 square feet. Zoning requires 200 sf/car, so that's enough parking for 480,000 cars, without building anything. Problem solved!!
(Not to mention the fact that many SIRT stations are in fully developed areas, so adding large parking lots would require massive condemnations and demolition.)
The SIRT stations are surrounded by little towns which are the oldest and quaintest parts of the Island. You would not want to tear them down. You could spend big bucks and build parking over the ROW where it is below grade, a la New Rochelle on the New Haven Line, but the street system won't support more traffic, and you'd never get through the approval process politically.
So big time investment in rail on Staten Island would be a handout boondoggle at the expense of areas that really need rail. I stand by my suggestions for SI transit. You never know, it might even be approved.
"no stations anywhere near my house"
Funny that, I've always thought that a great apartment rental would be those offices above 4th ave IND! It would cut your transit fares in half. Hmmm, actually no, you'd have to pay 1.50 to come back in from the market. Oh well. Unlimited metrocard it is. If you forget the milk, you can't come back in for 18 minutes!
Kinda like those Brits who live in abandoned signal towers.
P.S. that would classify me as an "IMBY"
I heard the term YIMBY used in Sim City 3000.
And do you mean the 4th Avenue BMT, or something else entirely?
In my neighborhood, if the subway is ever extended to Kings Plaza, then I actually want the neighborhood to become less isolated (I'm the only one, I'm sure). The creek between Avenue U and Strickland Avenue should be filled in and all of the streets from 56th to 61st should be routed through so I would be within walking distance of the station instead of having to take a stupid U shaped route.
Of course, neither thing will ever happen, so I might as well move out.
(Of course, neither thing will ever happen, so I might as well move out.)
No sense living in Brooklyn if you have to take a bus to the subway. You might as well live in Staten Island.
I don't ride the bus, does that make Staten Island better or worse?
It would make sense to run LRV's that can run in the subway, and have a system similar to the express buses now: the train runs on local streets, then possibly on the SIRT, converging on a terminal, where they either run via a new tunnel to Brooklyn and Manhattan or where one can transfer to subway trains that do so.
Staten Island is the size of Brooklyn, with 1/6 the people. Staten Islanders don't want any more, and the zoning reflects that -- fully developed areas of the borough are already losing population, and the
borough as a whole should top out soon. To allow Staten Islanders to walk to the train, as Brooklynites can, you'd need a whole subway network the size of Brooklyn's. But with so few people per line, those trains would be 5/6 empty -- you'd have to shut down Brooklyn's system to pay for it. As it is, SIRT covers less than 10 percent of it's operating costs, vs. 75 percent plus on the subway and 35 to 45 percent on the commuter railroads.
Few if any areas of Staten Island are losing population, as Dan's already pointed out. I suspect the borough's population will keep on growing until there's simply no more developable land - after all, it is an island.
Which brings up the most important point regarding transit. All the people who move to Staten Island, many of whom I've heard are coming from well-transited Brooklyn and Queens, do so with full knowledge that there is no direct rail link to Manhattan and probably won't be one for decades if ever. Yet they just keep right on coming! Either they don't work in Manhattan*, or they're satisfied with the current express bus/SIRT-Ferry alternatives. All of which goes to show that the demand for a direct rail link just isn't there. Spending untold billions on a new tunnel and connecting lines is the sort of boondoggle that would make NYC the laughing stock of the nation.**
* = Rumor has it that a significant number of new Staten Island residents work in New Jersey, and consider Staten Island a haven from the Garden State's confiscatory property taxes. Whether or not that's true, I don't pretend to know.
** = Which, to a considerable extent, it already is.
Confiscatory property taxes? Obviously, you don't live in Suffolk County, where our taxes got jacked up an average of $119 to pay for the last cops' payraise. Like they deserved it! My cousin in North Jersey has almost the same house and lot size as I do and pays $3500 less. Confiscatory? I'll take it! Plus NJ Transit hasn't raised fares in 10 years- just like the bloated pigs that run the L.I.R.R., Metro North,and the N.Y.C. subways and buses. My cousin is taking us house hunting in central Bergen County. We'll wave to you folks as we drive through Staten Island! It's sad because I loved New York and Long Island. But only a Suffolk County cop can afford to live there!!!
Confiscatory property taxes? Obviously, you don't live in Suffolk County, where our taxes got jacked up an average of $119 to pay for the last cops' payraise. Like they deserved it! My cousin in North Jersey has almost the same house and lot size as I do and pays $3500 less.
I do live in Suffolk, and yes taxes are far too high. But most parts of New Jersey are no bargain either. Staten Island, on the other hand, has very low property taxes.
Aren't the property tax rates the same in SI as in the rest of NYC? If we raised them a bit, we could afford to pay for these pipe dreams of ours.
(Aren't the property tax rates the same in SI as in the rest of NYC? If we raised them a bit, we could afford to pay for these pipe dreams of ours.)
New York City's taxes on residents, as a share of income, are among the highest in the country, far higher than Suffolk County or New Jersey. The difference is NYC has a local income tax (virtually unique in the U.S.) balanced by relatively low property taxes, but only for one to four family homes -- apartment dwellers pay twice as much. So NYC is a good deal if you live in a house and have a modest on-the-books income. If your income is high, the suburbs are better, because your property taxes don't go up in proportion to your income.
If you believe the fact that property taxes are low means we can raise them, even though overall taxes are high, join the teachers' union and try to get Dinkins to run again.
One thing New York, New Jersey and Connecticut have in common that is VERY different from almost any other state is that the cost of local services is primarily funded at the local level, not the state level. If you go to the Midwest, state taxes are much higher as a share of income, but local (ie. property) taxes are much lower. Doing it the local way limits the transfer of wealth from the Scarsdales of the world to the Levittowns and New York Citys. New Hampshire also has high local taxes and low state taxes, but the total is lower because the state doesn't FORCE the local governments to hand out money the way it does in New York.
One thing New York, New Jersey and Connecticut have in common that is VERY different from almost any other state is that the cost of local services is primarily funded at the local level, not the
state level. If you go to the Midwest, state taxes are much higher as a share of income, but local (ie. property) taxes are much lower. Doing it the local way limits the transfer of wealth from the
Scarsdales of the world to the Levittowns and New York Citys.
The case can be made that the NY way gives taxpayers better control over how their money is spent - it's easier to have a voice in the town hall than in the state capitol. Naturally, there's a downside, which is that financial shenanigans are more likely at the local level. State governments have a generally higher degree of accountability and often honesty.
(The case can be made that the NY way gives taxpayers better control over how their money is spent - it's easier to have a voice in the town hall than in the state capitol.)
I said taxes were COLLECTED at the local level. The DECISIONS are made in Albany, and passed down to the localities in the form of mandates. Who gave Suffolk County cops that now notorious raise? An arbitration board in Albany. Who decided that retired and retiring local government employees would be given more generous pensions, instead of giving working local government employees better salaries? The state legislature in Albany. Who decides how much to spend on Medicaid? Albany again. The special interests are grateful to the politicians in Albany. The public blames the local politician in City or Town Hall. It's a great scam.
It isn't all Gullota's fault.
just like the bloated pigs that run the L.I.R.R., Metro North,and the N.Y.C. subways and buses.
You see, the PIGVOLUTION is gaining strength! More swine is in positions of power.
From the 1990 Census, of 174,090 workers on Staten Island:
75,428 (43%) work on SI
87,094 (50%) work in state, off SI
11,568 (7%) work out of state
84,862 (49%) drive to work alone
26,796 (15%) carpool
28,261 (16%) by bus
5,767 (3%) by subway
2,608 (1.5%) by rail
15,622 (9%) by ferry
719 (.5%) by taxi
5,726 (3%) walk
294 by bicylce
134 by motorcycle
81 by trolley ;)
764 other
2,456 (1.5%) work at home
Obviously, this is ten years ago and may have changed significantly, especially with respect to out-of-state workers. The % of residents who travel by car in tracts along the SIR only would probably be more accurate for our cause also. But SI is clearly a car-oriented community, evidenced in the fact that while population has continued to grow, the SIR has been cut way back from what it once was. And (just to beat the point into the ground) it still doesn't have the population to justify the expense of a cross-harbor subway. It would be like extending the 7 to Great Neck :).
Now the real question is, where's that last operating trolley line on SI?
<expense of a cross-harbor subway. It would be like extending the 7 to Great Neck :).>>
Worse than that. If the 7 ran to Great Neck it would at least serve such relatively high density areas as Auburndale and Bayside along the way. The only intermediate populationthe SI subway would serve is the fish in New York Harbor;)
Nah. The SI subway would be more like extending the "6" train accross Long Island Sound to Port Washington.
;)Andrew
How does the Census assign percentages like that? It seems that they assign each person only one mode of transport. How in the name of Herbert bloody Hoover do they count a person who drives to St. George, takes the ferry to Manhattan, and takes the subway to her office?!?
The percentages were my own calculation; the census breaks it down by "real" numbers, which, interestingly enough, add up to precisely the total universe of workers. I'm surprised there's no overlap; I guess it relies on a person determining his/her "primary" mode of transportation. Of course, I'm sure many people have difficulty with "how many children do you have?" or "what is your birthdate?," explaining why 81 Staten Islanders still ride the trolley to work.
Of course, I'm sure many people have difficulty with "how many children do you have?" or "what is your birthdate?," explaining why 81 Staten Islanders still ride the trolley to work.
On any sort of questionnaire or form that asks for date of birth, some people are bound to put down the present date - as a result, the raw, unadjusted statistics will show that some newborn infants are applying for, say, drivers' licenses or vehicle registrations.
(How does the Census assign percentages like that? It seems that they assign each person only one mode of transport. How in the name of Herbert bloody Hoover do they count a person who drives to St. George, takes the ferry to Manhattan, and takes the subway to her office?!?)
If you got the long form, you know that the question (if you reported you worked "last week") how did you get to work. There is a list of choices, and it would be up to each person to decide what the primary mode was. Everyone walks, after all, if only from the parking lot. You always get people on business trips who get counted as commuting from New York to Chicago by airplane.
One point about Staten Island: the data says that along with people working in the finance industries (ie. Downtown, near the Ferry), most Staten Islanders work for the government or small businesses (often as owners) outside Manhattan. A cop, teacher, or small business owner working in Flatbush is not going to travel to work by bus-SIRT-bus-subway-subway-bus. Of course that would change if you allowed high densities, built lots of subways, and built a subway tunnel direct to Manhattan for $20 billion. But it ain't happening. If Staten Islanders have enough clout to get the City to waste $20 billion, we should just send them a check for $5 billion and save $15 billion.
"There is a list of choices, and it would be up to each person to decide what the primary mode was."
But that's my point. I'm not objecting to the ability of people to fill out the form, but the question itself. Urban, and sometimes even suburban, commuting inherently involves a mix of modes. This is exactly like the race issue, where, until this recent Census, they presumed people fit into one box and no other. For race/ethnicity and for commuting, they should allow -- in fact, encourage -- people to check off all the choices that apply, not just the primary one. If they want to know what the primary mode of commmuting is, tell the person to put a number next to all the modes they use, with 1 being the primary mode, 2 the secondary, etc.. There must be a reason the Census wants to know how people go to work, and "pick only one" gives a bad answer and thus bad data for whatever purpose they gather the information.
I drive to the train station, ride a commuter train into downtown, and take a bus to my office. If the weather is good, I walk from Union Station instead. In the evening, if I'm running late for the hourly train, I take a cab to Union Station, ride the train to my town, and drive home. Clearly, the train is my primary mode. But if that were my only answer, CTA, and bus ridership in general, would get screwed: they actually carried a rider but don't get credited for him. And I would imagine that affects things like federal funding of the CTA.
They want you to pick the mode of transportation that you use for the longest period of time during your commute. By their logic, my wife, who works on 23 St, uses the ferry, while I, working in the Bronx, use the subway, even though we both use all three methods during our commute (bus, ferry, subway).
I live on Staten Island, and work in Queens, Rego Park to be exact. The most efficient way for me to get to work is to drive, at least until I relocate. It's 35 minutes from here to Penn Station on the R/G-E combo, and 1.5 to 2 hours (on a good day) on the x17 or x31 from AK to Penn. A 2.5 hour 3-seat commute (requiring me to leave my home at 5:30) is insane. And since the evening trip may start at any time after 5pm, my chances of getting back to SI within 3 hours are slim and none.
-Hank
I'm no geology major or something, but couldn't the topography of SI be an issue too. SI has major hills everywhere. Now I don't know how much solid bedrock exists in SI, but seeing all those hills and stuff could also deter subway tunnels from being built on the island (maybe that's why one 1 line exists that's also elevated). The rumblings of the subway could possibly be a problem in certain areas. Again I'm not expert in this whatsoever, but I remember somthing like this being discussed in my Geology class.
Don't rip this to shreads if I'm way off base. It's just a thought provoker.
=)
It's a thought, but bear in mind that The Bronx and Upper Manhattan are equally hilly if not more so, and there it is definitely bedrock. Anyway, there are plenty of subways there.
I'd say the main geographical reason for Staten Island being left out of the subway is its isolation.
Andrew
and there it is definitely bedrock.
No wonder Staten Island doesn't have a subway. It still uses Fred Flintstone foot power and dinosaurs for busses!
None of this would be a problem. It wasn't in 1904.
-Hank
Why is it that people think Manhattan is flat?
Because most people think Manhattan stops at 96 St and for the most part the area south of 96 St HAS been flattened.
The Gowanus is barely standing as it is.
-Hank
The best chance SI has for a subway connection would be to piggy-back it along with the proposed freight rail tunnel that is being proposed to hook the Brooklyn waterfront up with the rest of the world, so it can handle the new larger cargo ships in the 21st century (the New Jersey side of the harbor apparently isn't deep enough to deal with those ships). The freight line does have an outside chance of getting funded, while a subway only tunnel, either to Bay Ridge or straight to Manhattan, would never get the cash by itself.
A bi-level tunnel that would handle freight rail on one level and subway service on the other would be the most cost-efficent option, with the freight line then wrapped around the island, under Bay St. and Richmond Terrace, over to the old B&O rail bridge connection into New Jersey. The subway line would be better off heading towards the SIRT around Gracemere.
As far as the Brooklyn side goes, you would want ot hook the freight tunnel up with the existing, but lightly used, New York & Atlantic freight line, which would allow access both to the Brooklyn piers and to Long Island and New England via the Hell's Gate bridge. Since that line parallels the Sea Beach where it would merge with any SI freight connection, you could double deck the line all the way to 62nd St. (with a stop at, say 86th and Ft. Hamliton Pkwy.) and tie in the Staten Island subway to the current N express tracks.
The down part of this (other than the cost, of course) would be you would likely have to change the West End B, or the new W train to a local between 36th and DeKalb to avoid overcrowding the Fourth Ave. express tracks.
If you moveed the B to the new SI route, it could bypass DeKalb and continue across the Manny B (assuming it ever gets fixed) as the Sixth Ave. express, while the W could run the West End and then continue northbound in tandem with the R as Broadway local to Astoria (R terminal staying at Continental), with the N and Q running Broadway express to 57th-7th or to the dreamed-of Second Ave. stubway.
The money is a BIG con. Your great-grandchildren will still be paying intrest on the finance cost. (and you're under 18!) In no way will this possibly pay for itself, unless an appropriate fare to cover the costs is charged. Others include drastic changes in property values (both ways), increased pollution during the construction (and the associated chaos) and a further increase in the uncontrolled development that is already taking place.
As to your 'super subway car' dream? Keep dreaming. If the MTA can't get LIRR cars right, there's no way a 100mph subway car will work. There would also be problems drawing power, as 600vdc from third rail, no less) is not efficient in any sense.
Staten Island residents pay a mere $3.20 round-trip on the VZ, less then the cost of a one-way trip on any of the other TBTA 'Interstate' crossings. And since the fare has gone up more than 200% in just my lifetime (since 1975), and 50% in the past 10 years, what makes you think the transit cost will remain the same? I honestly can't remember the last TBTA toll hike (from $3 to $3.50).
-Hank
The pollution will go down alot on and around the BQE
All it will do, is convince other people to use the highway space vacated by new subway riders.
The only way pollution will go down around the BQE is:
If a new highway is built in a different area and the BQE is abandoned.
Electric and fuel cell cars, or even the new 35 km/l hybrids become more popular.
A Staten Island-Bay Ridge subway connection wouldn't make sense unless/until they can get their act together regarding express service to Manhattan from Bay Ridge, which the MTA has been unwilling and/or unable to do.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Somewhere along the line, for whatever reason, Staten Island was left out of the subway system. And Staten Island developed, for the most part, as a suburb rather than as really part of the "metropolis". Whether one event caused the other is hard to say. But the fact is, that's how it happenned. Staten Island is not really a "subway" place.
Seeing as they can barely finnish a small stub off an existing line, and MAYBE create a new line doen 2nd Ave, it seems highly doubtful they're going to start with the complex and far-reaching--not to mention prohibitively expensive--process of extending the subway to Staten Island this late in the game. Nor does it seem really worthwhile. There are far more densely populated regions in Eastern Queens and the Northeastern Bronx which need subway service more--and would use it in far greater numbers if created.
Send the "biggies", the Grand Poobahs, the Pundits, the High Muckiemucks to a Swap meet at some regional Flea Market.
Once they get there , here what happens...
The P.A. gives over the PATH to the NYCTA ith options on the Newark subway The MTA gives over to NJ TRANSIT the SIRR.
NJTRANSIT rehabs the north shore and either unnels under the Kill or uses single track service over the bridge during rush hours only. Direct to Penn station. NYCTA recovers the SI r/44s. for use on the "A". Path/IRT gives almost Direct service between LGA and Newark Airports. A lot of people get single seat rides . Pass GO collect $2oo.
avid
Whatever you're smoking cannot be legal.
Dream along with me.
Stubway before SI
Hello friends, my site has long been dormant but today a small Metr0-North section featuring the New Haven and Hudson lines was added to the growing site. It is quite bare now, but I will add new info and photos soon. It can be reached here. My site's main page is at nyrail.cjb.net Check it out!
-Dan
National Corridors Initiative reports rumors from inside Amtrak sources that Acela Express trainsets are on the verge of being certified and that Acela service will officially begin November 9. One source reportedly stated that 150 mph speed has already been authorized.
Also reported in the article is that train 132 took down catenary at Shore Line Jct, CT, on Sept 30 and one of the toasters lost a pan.
I have been told by the guy in the information booth that Acela will start in "early November, around the 7th"
Also, what is Shore Line Jct?
It's there the inland route and the NEC meet. The new haven RR took you 2 places, Springfiled Mass and Boston Mass. This is where the 2 routes diverged. It is also where Amtrak once again takes over from MNRR.
-Shore Line East dispatcher out.
Write it on your calendar in pencil, as we've seen "definite" start dates come & go.
FRA has certified the Acela Trainset, check a post from me a few weeks ago.
Hi everybody,
I've posted some pictures I took this past weekend at the Shore Line Trolley Museum here.
Bob
Hey, Bob! Thanks for the photo of me on 4573 (wrong car if I was going to do the "Malbone re-enactment").
But thanks for a good-looking shot nonetheless....:-)
BMTman
Bob, I particularly liked the Lo-V/R-9 shot with Steve K. "assuming the position", Jeff at the controls & several railfans at the storm door. It's a typicaly shot of the kind of fun we had ... thanks for sharing it with us. Can't wait to see the first shot of the meat-in-the-sandwich train, i.e. IRT Lo-V, IND R-9, IRT Hi-V.
Mr t__:^)
OK, here is a special preview of an image that is upcoming
in the next newsletter:
Ken Rosen photo.
Jeff, verrrrry nice!!!
:-)
BMTman
An excellent shot that clearly shows the Hi-V in the lead pulling, while the R-9, in the middle, is also taking power. For those that don't know, there was a cable on the roof between the Lo-V & R-9. So on the return trip the Lo-V & R-9 were taking power while the Hi-V became a trailer.
Am wondering out loud how long Ken had to stand in the marsh waiting for us to come by.
Mr t__:^)
Way to Go Ken!!
I beleive he got off the trolley that made the trip before the Train did. I sam him has we came down Beacon. He does great work with that digital camera of his.
Now that's a photo for the ages! Something you never would have seen in New York. What was the marker light combination for that train?:-)
(L) Defective (R) Defective :)
We don't worry too much about marker lights on the Hi-V.
How about the ones on 5466? Do they still work? Eddie Sarkauskas once showed me the colored lenses for 1689's marker lights.
Yes, the markers on 5466, 1689 and 6688 work.
The following is from an email I received regarding the writeup of the Polo Grounds trips...--Dave
Good afternoon.
Let me first say that I truly enjoyed the story behind and pictures of the Polo Ground Shuttle. Yesterday morning, I, along with other members of the Mayor's Office, led City agencies into both ends of the de facto 9th Avenue subway tunnel (Anderson-Jerome & Sedgwick Avenues) in an attempt to strategize a clean up.
The situation at this site was brought to my attention by an FDNY Battalion Chief during the September District Service Cabinet meeting of Community Board 4.
I was informed by FDNY that they have responded to numerous fires set by homeless and vandels in the past couple of years, most recently this summer. Yes, we did find hundreds of tires and car shells amidst other debris mostly at the Anderson-Jerome end. If you want to know how we all got up to the Anderson-Jerome station, we had FDNY lift us with their Ladder truck above the white awning-business building where there is a gate that opens up.
It is in our interest to clean up both ends of the tunnel, remove the car shell and all, and seal completely the tunnel to prevent vagrants and pyromaniacs from entering and wreaking havoc.
Thank you for the story behind this station/tunnel.
Lee Anthony Nieves
Director, Bronx Unit-CAU
Mayor's Office
Well, glad we went when we did... but for the benefit of the public sealing the tunnel is probably the right thing to do. (Sigh.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"...and seal completely the tunnel..."
Hopefully, after they've cleaned it out they'll allow future railfan trips - but I doubt it. I'm glad I got to see the tunnel in person, thanks to nycsubway.org.
Good thing nobody's picture is clearly seen on that page, or we would have been arrested!
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't think that would have happened. Besides, every photo has a credit, doesn't it?
-Hank
10/12/2000
It's interesting that they said the tunnel will be cleaned up and sealed. Both ends of the tunnel were sealed up in the past but those wanting to gain access found a way in there. If they want to seal it up, then a thick concrete wall will do the trick. Cinder blocks and roll up doors haven't worked.
Bill "Newkirk"
Seeing that they are closing this one up for good, YET AGAIN!!! Are there any other tunnels left to explore.I wasn't fortunate enough to be on that trip, with regrets.
Please let me know; as this is one part of the subway system that really interests me.
Marty.
East New York on the Bay Ridge LIRR Line. However, one of the four tracks is in active use.
BMTman
Thanks BMT Man, just wondering what you are refering too?
Are there empty tunnels, abandoned lines? Have you been, if so what does it look like and how safe is the location?
Marty
The ROW is owned by LIRR and leased to the New York & Atlantic Railway, so you would need approval from NY&A if you planned on doing a "walking tour" of that site.
And that applies to the whole tunnel despite the fact that only two of the four tunnel portals have tracks running through them.
BMTman
There's the old Rockaway line tunnel under the LIRR main line, one track, sealed at one end. Odd smell coming from within. It's about 100 feet long. That line also has many RR bridges, and in the winter I use the line as a "shortcut" between my apartment and my doctor's office (on Metropolitan ave). During the summer, the bridges are mostly impassable because of the vegetation. There's an abandoned station at Woodhaven Blvd, I've only seen it from the street, but it is possible to get up there, I think by walking from Forest Park along the line (not possible in summer).
May I say a dirty word, Mr. Pirmann?
Hope u know what I meant to say...
Guess a redo (#4) is out of the question :-(
-Mark
Considering that city officials might be monitering our posts I think it would possibly be a bit risky.
I think they have much better things to do.
-Hank
I would've gone. Then again, the city isn't exactly speedy on what it says it's going to do. Plus, they may need to get in there, perhaps they will put up a fence with gate, or wall with door, and special interest groups (us) could be allowed access?
Well, I'm just glad that I had the opportunity to go in, twice, and be a part of "history" that I never saw in service because I wasn't born yet.
I wish the City well in their endeavour to close it up from vagrants and put an end to a risky situation.
Perhaps we'll hear again from the Mayor's office when their timetable gets closer, and they may even decide to give us one last "sanctioned" hurrah. We'll see.
--Mark
10/18/2000
It should be interesting to see how they will remove those stripped automobile bodies. After all, they were driven in there at the Sedgwick end.
Bill "Newkirk"
... and it still baffles me how they were even driven inside to begin with.
To get them out, I suppose it wouldn't be difficult for a font end loader with a long cable to pull them out, or to "cut them up" on the spot ....
--Mark
The R142's are back, into service now, and that the testing is complete..........i guess
What about the testing on the 5 trains??
BTW My birthday is Nov.26.....just next month....
Did you see it? If so, what time was it, where was it, and what direction was it going?
- Lyle Goldman
Are they in service now? I saw one on the downtown express tracks on the Lex last night near Canal St shortly after 7pm, but I wasn't sure if it was in service or what.
no they are not in service. if they were in service then the other five sitting in Unionport would be running. Btw whats up with Bombardier sets? has any arrived to the yards yet? if not whats going on?
I was waiting to see if Stef would post this. On Tuesday AM 7220 and company were on the test track outside of Gun Hill on the 5 with tons of workers in orange vests (I guess we can call these "vests")plus some that appeared to be technical people (From Kawasaki?)
7211-7220 are under going test from the Modifications that where made at 207 St.
Also they have stepped up R142 school car training.
does this mean another 30 day period or will they be placed into regular service. What about the Bombardier Cars
I do not know about Bombardier cars but the 142A will have to pass a 15 day road test.
1. If the train gets tooooooooooooo overcrowded what would happen?
2. How does the train operation work?
3. Why does the train make that creaking and screeching noise when it makes a turn?
If the train gets tooooooooooooo overcrowded what would happen?People wouldn't get on. Never been under Lexington Avenue?
How does the train operation work?His brain sends signals through his nerves that causes his muscles to expand and contract and therefore move. They get the energy from converting Glucose and Oxygen to Carbon Dioxide and water.
Why does the train make that creaking and screeching noise when it makes a turn?Metal on metal
Explore this site, your operation questions are answered here. When trains are at their crush load, people just don't get on. If the conductor can't close the doors, he might just take the train out of service (Discharge the train) to punish the masses.
Does anyone know about the scenes of the subway/elevateds in the opening and closing sequences of Welcome Back Kotter? Lines, car numbers, dates etc?
Thanks,
Anthony Leith
Sydney Australia
The scenes were shot on the B West End line in Brooklyn(I would guess around 20th Avenue). The cars were R32, R40 modified and R42 equipment. All the car numbers would be almost impossible to verify.
Were Slant R40s ever in the opening and closing scenes on the show? When I was a kid I remember seeing a train with a big B coming toward the camera at the end of one show. I thought it was a slant, but I wasn't sure being that as a kid my parents only took me on the IRT Mainlines (ugh, all that graffitti and the ugly old black and white rollsigns).
I never saw a slant 40 on that show. And I thought those big end signs were cool.
No, they're not slant R-40s. I always thought those particular cars were R-32s.
No, they're not slant R-40s. I always thought those particular cars were R-42s.
Disregard my previous post.
P. S. If you look close at that slow-moving train of R-32s in the opening titles, you can see the black-on-white "B" pasted over the original BB marking on the side route curtain.
Since the High School is at 79th St. and New Utrecht Ave, This is the "B" train between 71st and 79st stations.
Gabe Kaplan based the exploits of the "Sweathogs" on the experiences of his high school years at Erasmus Hall, but in the show it appears to be set in Bensonhusrt, not Flatbush.
BMTman
The show was set at fictional Buchanan High, but the model for the school was Lafayette High, on the Bensonhurst/Gravesend border. Most famous graduate: SAndy Koufax
I thought it was modeled after New Utrecht High School.
- Lyle Goldman
This is not Lafayette H.S. The model is absolutely New Utrecht H.S.
Well, the exterior shots during the opening credits are definitely Utrect, but on the show, they often talk about New Utrect being their arch rivals.
Another Famous Lafayette grad: Mets' reliever John Franco.
Yeah, I know what you mean. Well, maybe that was their way of thanking the school for being the model, or it could be another Hollywood flub. Anyway, it's all fiction, and in good fun, right?
JDL
Just saw Mr. Kaplan performing as the "surprise guest" a couple weeks ago at a comedy club. Sad to say, it wasn't his funniest of moments. Didn't Barbra Streisand go to Erasmus Hall? Also, does anyone know whether "Welcome Back Kotter" was taped in New York or L.A.?
Barbra Streisand, Gabe Kaplan, Barbara Stanwyck, Bobby Fischer, Bernard Malamud, Neil Diamond, Billy Cunningham and I all went to Erasmus Hall HS once.
10/13/2000
Let's not forget Donald "Donny" Most who played Ralph Malph on "Happy Days". He's in my Erasmus Hall year book, Class of '70.
Bill "Newkirk"
Did you know him personally?
Mary Cadorette, who starred in "Three's a Crowd" with John Ritter, was at UConn at the same time I was; in fact, we were both in the School of Fine Arts. She was in Dramatic Arts while I was in music. Alas, we never met, although we may have been in the same class a time or two.
10/13/2000
[Did you know him personally?]
No Steve, never met the guy. Erasmus is a BIG high school with lots of students. When you're indside the grounds the surrounding buildings with center lawn looks like a college campus.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have a school photo of my Saturday school the first year I attended, and standing right behind me is the late Vitas Gerulaitis. I never knew him, but my parents knew his parents.
Is Erasmus still the imposing facade it once was? Although I went to Brooklyn Tech over in Fort Greene (Mech. '74), I used to visit Erasmus Hall's wonderful "chapel" for organ practice. You guys had a much better instrument than Tech!
Oh, yes, it is still that huge building on Flatbush Avenue, next to the Astor Theater. I don't know if the Castro Convertible store is on the left anymore. I was inside about 4 years ago. It didn't look too different, actually, since my graduation in 1967. The school is administratively now 3 schools in one big building with three different principals, I believe. The originial 1787 building is still in the middle of the campus. When my kids saw the place from the outside 2 years ago, they couldn't believe how huge it was and that is was right on a busy shopping street. Theirs is a vast 1-story building on a two-lane road near a farm and a 7-11.
That's good to hear! I know what you mean about your kids. When I visited Brooklyn Tech several years ago with my wife (she is from a small Masachusetts town), she was astounded by the size and facilities of the school. She still finds it hard to imagine what it must have been like to commute by subway (Fulton Street Line from Ozone Park) to school everyday!
Carl, Castro Convertible is no longer there (it closed about 4 or 5 years ago). I actually bought my first sofa there (nearly 20 years ago).
About the Astor Theatre for the non-Erasmians: the Astor Theatre was LITERALLY next door to the school. During my years there, the faculty was constantly trying to close the place down as it was a great distraction to the students. The theatre used to run monster-movies and/or Kung-Fu flicks on double-bills during the day and many a student played hooky in there. I was not one of them, fortunately (I played hooky riding the Brighton or the Culver Line :-)
BMTman
We Erasmians knew how to play our organ...:-)
BTW, Frank my bro graduated from Tech in '74! Small world.
BMTman
I know this is getting way off transit (but isn't Brooklyn really synonymous with transit anyway), but I read in the Times that a reporter was talking to the current student body at Erasmus Hall during the recent Streisand concerts at MSG. Many of the kids had only a vague idea who she was. If Barbra Streisand had gone to my high school (in Central PA), I guarantee you everyone would know who she was, even today.
This might have something to do with the fact that Babs has had NO relations with our fair "city" of Brooklyn since she left for La La Land (correction: since she came here in the early '70's to film "For Pete's Sake" -- that included a subway scene no less). Also, it's not like she has any "Top 40" tunes playing currently on national radio for young folks to get to hear her easily.
BTW, I don't know whether she feels ashamed or what, but she has never seen fit to attend one of the annual "Welcome Back to Brooklyn" celebrations at Grand Army Plaza (I know she's been asked), or even comment on her years at Erasmus Hall in interviews. She is a strange bird indeed.
Some stars who appear at Brooklyn events w/o any arm-twisting are people like Brenda Vaccaro, Fivesh Finkel (of 'Picket Fences' and the new series 'Boston Public'), Harvey Keitel, and Jimmy Smits, among others.
Obviously, there are some 'public personalities' who are not into dwelling on their pasts whether the memories were good or bad. Barbara Streisand appears to be one of those.
BMTman
The Erasmus Hall thread will get new life as a result of the story in
today’s Times about football being dropped precipitously at Erasmus.
Add Sid Luckman to your list of famous alumni.
Chucubob: Naughty, naughty, the thought police will be on your tail because you were off topic. Watch the threads. I like that topic, though. There are some great people who come from Brooklyn. How about Queens, my birthplace. Any big shots from there besides Mario Cuomo who makes me sick?
How about Run DMC?
[Didn't Barbra Streisand go to Erasmus Hall?]
Yes, she did.
Actually, two or three SubTalkers also went to Erasmus Hall.
;-)
"Kotter" was flimed in LA.
:)Andrew
The subway sequence near the end of the opening titles was shot along 86th St. In the camera shots looking straight ahead, you can spot streetcar tracks in the pavement.
There is one episode in which Barbarino gets his own apartment. It's near a subway line, and at one point, he announces the Flatbush Express is about to go by. A rumbling sound is heard, then the scene cuts to the same stock footage used in the opening titles, of a train of R-32s going by.
Intersting article on The Metrocard and what it has wrought:
METROCARD=MEGABUCKS
Peace,
ANDEE
The article is very interesting, yet not completely accurate. For me to say more would probally not be in my best interest, so I'll just leave it at that. I do suggest that those of us who work with the system should read it, and maybe lear a thing or two.
I for one think I have a pritty good relationship with some of the folks at Cubic, both here and at Tenn., but I've never been one to ware rose colored glasses.
Mr t__:^)
>>> The article is very interesting, yet not completely accurate <<<
I think biased is the correct term for the article rather than inaccurate. They probably got the facts correct, but the inferences they drew may have been unfair, especially the bias against letting a company profit from its proprietary intellectual property rights. The fact that the customer is a public agency should not in itself disqualify a company from making a profit on its contracts. OTOH the abuses (due to a lack of a truely free market situation) in contracting between government and defense contractors leading to $600 hammers has been pointed out many times, and does exist.
Tom
They go there facts correct? According to them, the MTA is trying to replace 'toll-booth clerks' with '$50,000 metal speak-and-spells'
Don't forget, this is the Village Voice we're talking about, which has lower journalistic standards than the Weekly World News. (but oddly, better than the NY Times) :)
-Hank
Does this mean that Maureen Dowd will have to seek employment with the Weekly World News in order to advance herself?
Tom, you're forgetting that the world would be a much better place if source code was open for "tweaking," i.e., theft by other companies, who can profit off the time and money someone else put into developing the software. While I'm not thrilled with the idea that part of my $63 a month is going to a defense contractor for Iran (though I'm sure the divisions' budgets are independent), I think the article was written from an "angry outsider" viewpoint, without even considering the TA's viewpoint, like people who hold subway doors and write letters complaining that the trains are never on schedule. I'm just glad the Voice was able to alert the public before a biased rag like the Times was able to get hold of the story and distort the facts :).
Who's up for a SubTalk field trip to the Astor Place station for a Metrocard burning, followed by coffee at one of the three Starbucks at the intersection? :):)
I was waiting for a customer to answer first. I find the software to be user UNfriendly. Let's say you want two MetroCards, each for $17 each (One week). I have to select from the menu, insert amound tendered, press to calculate change(even if it is exact amount) and then press to have it tell me to insert card. Noe for the second card I have to repeat the entire process. We need a repeat function which it does not have. Let's say you want 3-- yeah, you guessed it!
the system (Windows NT 4.0 Service Pak 3) is unfriendly and often crashes which for us means a booth audit (by supervisor) and heaven help us if we are short! In the meantime- they must sue the machines (if the station has machines)and hear them gripe that we refused to sell them a card! I tell them I am sorry but the computer crashed and the response is unprintable. AH, the joy of subways! (Yes- I *still* love my job--really!)
My experience is that when using a credit card, there is a maximum of FOUR transactions allowed on one machine, or in a cluster of machines (they must be networked together). I speculate that this is some kind of anti-fraud scheme. But if I want to buy five daily unlimited MCs by credit card from an MVM, I must buy four from one station, then go to another station to get the fifth. Or change credit cards.
I agree completely about the vending machines; I've been especially frustrated when I have to buy Fun Passes for 5 friends visiting from out of town and I only have $20s. Why are those not available from station clerks, anyway?
NT is pretty stable, so the frequent crashes probably are caused by Cubic's software; however, I still don't think that justifies making the source public, so Verizon can "tweak" Cubic's code here and there, then make a lower bid to the TA for farecard implementation.
NT is pretty stable
This is why my Toshiba laptop (NT 4.0, service pack 6) keeps crashing and refusing to shut down properly? (Service packs 3, 4, and 5 weren't much better, but each "upgrade" [mandated by our IT department] seems to make things worse.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NT and Laptop is your problem. NT is notoriously bad with laptop compatibility. Win2K is DEFINATELY an upgrade in that case.
-Hank
....(Windows NT 4.0 Service Pak 3).....
They should get with the times NT 4.0 is up to service pak 6, at least. Maybe some of their glitches would go away.
Peace,
ANDEE
See my previous post on the same subject.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Funny tho' I use NT4.0 service pak 6 at work. Never have a problem.
Peace,
ANDEE
Service pack 6a.
-Hank
Thank you
"... a Metrocard burning, followed by ..."
Well, I don't think they would burn too well, but other then that it sounds like a good idea. How about cutting them up into 4 letter words ?
Mr t__:^)
Well, I don't think they would burn too well
Not true, they burn well.
Uh oh. Wouldn't creating open flame in a subway station be illegal? And what about the discussion of illegal actions on this site?
Open Source is a solution that looking for a problem. I don't think it is the solution for the "Cubic-Metrocard" problem. There are reasonable alternatives that have been successfully used in NYC in another context.
NYCOTB had terrible teething problems, when it started up almost 30 years ago. They used a single contractor to provide them with operational software. The software was mainframe based and could not be restarted for 1/2 hour until a crash induced sysdump completed.
OTB's planners were more sophisticated than the contractor. OTB split the job into three parts: terminals; communications and software. OTB specified the communications protocol and controlled the communications lines. The software companies and terminal manufacturers bid had to work with the specs that OTB provided. The software and the terminals could be provided by the same vendor.
OTB reached a conclusion that the software wasn't working and would never work reliably. They decided to bring in a new vendor by subterfuge. A new service, telephone betting, was introduced with a new vendor. In reality the only technical difference was that the customer and betting clerk communicated by a telephone line instead of in person. The telephone betting office was technically identical to any of the 100 odd betting offices. The new vendor's software worked.
The decision was made to change vendors. An additional emergency expansion contract was let to the new vendor because of telephone betting's unqualified success. This contract provided for two packages. The first was to expand the vendor's diagnostic tool - a terminal simulator to cover all 500 odd terminals. The second was to scale the computer operation up to 100 branches. A new patch panel was also built within OTB's communications operations to connect to the new vendor's computer.
The new software was exercised by simulator for several days without incident. One Sunday (there was no Sunday racing then) the patch panel connections were changed by OTB. The new vendor's terminal simulator was connected to the old vendor's computer and the real terminals were connected the new vendor's computer.
The old vendor was none the wiser and the new software worked flawlessly for two days. The old vendor was given 30 days notice of contract termination on the third day. The old vendor told OTB that they were going to pull their plug immediately - which they did with no effect on OTB operations.
The moral is that controlling the communications controls the operation. I have no idea whether or not NYCT has similar leverage over Cubic for the Metrocard system.
>>>Cubic Corporation chairman Walter Zable gave Mayor Giuliani $1000 in February. Zable sent $2000 to Senate candidate
Rick Lazio in June. Ron Kane, Cubic Transportation's local spokesman, gave $2000 to Lazio the same
week as his boss. The Cubic Employees Political Action Committee also gave money to Lazio, and to Al
D'Amato before him. Not to mention the $65,599 in soft money the company has funneled into Republican organizations since last October. <<<
Support of Republicans seems to be the Voice's main objection to Cubic...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Recent threads have discussed the cause & effect of BIE (brake-in-emergency applications) in NYC. I thought I'd share with you some of my observations from BIEs here in Boston. Hopefully some of my Boston colleagues can chime in as well.
The Red Line and Orange Line have Automatic Speed Control (ASC) along parts of their routes. This means that the operator holds the cineston (single control handle, as on the R-46s) in parallel, and the train's speed is automatically controlled by codes received through the rails. I often experience BIEs in when the train is in ASC mode. In particular approaching Harvard and Charles/MGH (northbound) and Park (southbound) when the Red Line's maximum allowable speed drops from 40 to 25 mph. The BIE results in full pneumatic braking, but it's not enough to send people flying.
On the Blue Line, there is no ASC. Wayside signals are used, and in most cases, it's a permissive block system with timing. Operators are trained to proceed at the right speed so that they "charge" the signal just as it changes from red to green. If they miss, they are tripped, and the train goes BIE. Again, it's pneumatic only, and a quick stop, but not a stonewall.
For each of the above, there is a brief (10-15 second) penalty time, then it's "charge-and go!". No walk-around, no reporting to the dispatcher, and no discipline for the operator.
On the Green Line (light rail), one can have a BIE by releasing the deadman pedal (Type-7s and PCCs) or T-controller (LRVs), punching the BRB ("Big Red Button" emergency switch), or having an unexpected uncoupling while operating in Multiple Unit (MU) mode. I have onely had one BIE on this line, and it was on a two-car train of Type-7 trolleys, which uncoupled at about 40mph in the subway. I was in the second car, and it stopped FAST and HARD. In addition to pneumatics, the track brakes apply; people went flying! The operator got on the PA and asked if anyone had been hurt. She had to call into the dispatcher to report the uncoupling, and then was given permission to proceed in single-car mode after resetting the car.
In addition to pneumatics, the track brakes apply; people went flying!
What is a track brake?
A track brake is a magnetic shoe that contacts the rail and provides braking force. The track brake shoes are suspended between each pair of axles in each truck. First introduced in a production car was the PCC of 1936 and suceeding years. Track brakes can be automatic, or operator selected.
Almost all transit cars beginning with the PCC and remaining through almost all LRV's have track brakes.
and they STOP you!!! Hence the ride on the Type7 decouple.
Track brakes pre-date the PCC. We have a 1917 single-truck trolley with track brakes (see tmny.org, car roster, Gothenburg #79).
European cars don't count, neither do cable cars. The track brakes on cars in Europe was usually activated as part of the braking current. "R" type controllers allow for braking current, and were rarely used in the US.
Track brakes here were, until the PCC, very experimental. Large fleets were built into the late 1920's without any form of track brakes.
BTW, almost every operator of PCC cars trained their operators not to make regular use of the track brakes. This was observed more in the breach than the strict observance, as almost every company noted an increase in rail wear at car stops.
In Boston, here's how track brakes work. I'll describe the two car types (other than PCC) separately.
On the Boeing LRVs, track brakes can be activated by pushing the brake pedal to the floor. There is also a console-mounted
momentary toggle switch which the operator can press. This switch is labeled "roll-back prevention." Since there is a lag
between the time that the friction brakes are released and power is applied, LRVs are prone to roll back on inclines. Operators
are trained to push the console switch and hold it until power is applied. When the track brake is on, a tell-tale light is on, and
a high-pitched warning sound is produced.
On the Kinki Type-7s, everything is the same, except that operators do NOT need to use the roll-back prevation in normal
operation. The Type-7s maintain 10lbs of air even when the brake pedal is released. The air is released automatically when
the power application takes hold, so Type-7s do not normally roll back.
"On the Boeing LRVs, track brakes can be activated by pushing the brake pedal to the floor."
Did the AmerRail rebuild also retrofit the Boeings with NY Air Brake pedals? I was under the impression that the Boeings had joysticks. At least they did when built.
My error; thanks for picking that up, Dan. Indeed, it's a T-controller. On the Boeing LRVs, the track brake is applied by pulling back to the emergency position.
How about a r-10 in BIE?
Don't laugh our own BMT Man was running BERA's R9 and he tripped. Running to slow to tell how fast we stopped. Some stone was piled up trackside and tripped the tripper while I was leaning out the storm door guiding the pole.
Of course we wrote him and suspended him 3 days (NOT..>G<), that is where he came up with the idea to recreate the Melborne St. accident, well it wasn't a real trip since it was the rear truck that tripped out and he did get to finish the trip (with me objecting, I should have took over since he did TRIP the car!!!!
Malbone Street?
I think that's what Lou meant.
Gee Spelling Police, yah that is what I meant. Sorry tiped too fast.
Well, I can't say that I've ever ridden an R-10 in Boston :-)
But I have ridden (and operated!) an R-4 and an R-7 in Kennebunkport, ME. They BIE with a full pneumatic dump; I would estimate the rate-of-stopping is between the previously mentioned Type-7 stonewall and the way-too-soft Boston rapid transit trains.
I don't specifically remember an R-10 BIE, but I would guess it's similar to the R1-9s.
R1-9 emergency brake rate: about 2.7 MPHPS
R10: About 3.2
PCC: 9
Todd, have you ever experienced a trip on the green line where
the operator deliberately puts it in emergency to avoid hitting
something or someone?
Wow! 9MPS? Thats must hurt. Now thats what I call a emergency stop.
That's the peak emergency rate with friction, dynamic and
magnetic track brakes all at maximum.
No, Jeff, I can't say I have. But I've heard stories of operators in the 2nd car of a two-car train of LRVs pushing the BRB (Big Red
Button -- the mushroom-shaped emergency button) because someone tried to cross BETWEEN the cars at a station stop (i.e.
jumping the couplers). That is the T's main rationale for NOT using OPTO as is done in San Francisco.
OPTO is operated on the T's Blue Line although it is not used by LRV's and of course is used on the Green Line.
And I have been on a Green Line train that went into emergency. Thank god I was holding on or I would have been splattered onto the windshield. And I was in the middle of the car!
A funny story about OPTO on the Blue Line in Boston (we went through this discussion a few years ago here on SubTalk):
When it was proposed and subsequently implemented, there were cries of "losing the guard (Bostonese for C/R) will compromise safety." So the T said they would take these personnel, and redeploy them on stations and as roving inspectors on the trains ... the net result supposedly would be increased safety.
Well guess what? These "inspectors" ride in the front cab with the operators and gab. And do you know what happens when there's a station with a left-side platform? They open and close the doors! Some increase in safety!
I wonder what kind of OPTO differential pay Boston T train operators receive? NYCTA pays $2 an hour extra for OPTO snd let me tell ya, it ain't worth it.
If it were to happen on an A train thundering along CPW at around 81st St., or on a southbound A about to become airborne before 42nd St., I'd say it wouldn't be pretty. Not only would the brakes dump air, but the train would probably dump its entire load of passengers onto the trackbed.
Actually it's the opposite. A TA train going at a high rate of speed will give a much smoother stop that a TA train going at a slow rate of speed. The only time that people get thrown on a BIE is when the train is doing 10 mph or less.
Undesired Uncoupling of Trains
Rule 50
(a) If an undesired uncoupling occurs, the Train Crew must immediately notify the Command Center Desk Superintendent, and then try to re-couple and move as quickly as possible. The train will be operated with restricted speed and extreme caution; at the next station, passengers must be discharged. The train will be sent immediately to th enearest maintenance facility.
If they can not be re-couple, both sections must be secured against rolling. The train crew must then arrange for the following train to couple to the rear section of th etrain that has broken apart. Then the first Train Operator will operate the first section of the train and the second Trian Operator will operate the remaining section. The second Train Operator must run his/her part of the train from front end if there is enough motor pwer and braking power to safley control the train. Passengers must be discharged at the next station from both sections. The two sections will immediately be sent to the nearest maintenance faclilty. (see Rule 51 Pushing trian that cannot move underits own power).
In an effort to avoid a flood of useless posts, I will combine all my trip observations into this single thread.
My train 475 arrived on time in Meriden. after getting my ticket checked I went to the rear window of the 2 car train. the Amtrak springfield Line is a very beautiful route and the changing foilage makes for some spectacular sceenery. Somone should offer a fan trip up the line.
We pulled into New Haven, all the electrifacation is complete at shore Line Jct. (obviously) and they are making progress fixing all the different station tracks at New Haven (slowly). The power change process for an inbound Inland train is much more complicated than for the outbound trains. After droping off pasengers at the station, 475 pulls forward past signal 1E1. Then the DC bound train 175 arrives. The single F40 is pulled off and runs into the tail track past signal 1W1. Then 475 backs up past the red 1E1 and couples onto 175. then that F40 runs onto the tail track and couples onto the other F40 and they run accross the main line and into the engine pit. Meanwhile an AEM-7 runs past the red 1E1 and couples onto the longer 175. After a brake test the train is ready to run. The whole process for me took about 40 min. this was fine with me beacuse I did not have any food and was able to run into the New Haven station Subway (hi-lite of all my trips). It was also still lite enough to take plenty of photos.
We left new haven on time and all 3 tracks were open to the Housitanic draw. Past Bridgeport all 4 tracks were open to Stamford. I saw a Metro North painted FL-9AC? waiting at Norwalk with the Danbury shuttle.
At Stamford they finally have the northern Gauntlet track open and the island platform completed although it was shortened because the part over the road overpass was not there. Work seems to have shifted to the other side tracks. I saw a metro north P32 with an eastbound train waiting at Stamford. Also I saw that some MNRR M3's had a red stripe all the way around while others had a full red face w/ white striping. Is that a newer or older scheeme? Also how dangerous is it to pass from A end to A end of a M# car when the train is in motion? I know that short platforms and bar cars make this passing necessary.
I noticed some non-triangle Catenary in the Stamford area but the origional stuff is still up from Stamford to the NY border. It was dark now and I was noticing some heavy arcing from our AEM's pan.
We crossed onto Amtrak rails at SHELL and ran into Penn Station for an On time arrival on track 14. At this point I got out and ran into out New Haven engineer. He was very nice and talked to me for a while. He had 30+ years of experiance and had started on the real New Haven. I asked if ACELA would start on Nov 7 and he replied "what year?." He then told me some alternate Acela acronyms that I have forgotten. He said that they have installed 2 new cab signals for ACELA, 150mph and 125 mph (after you SubTalkers could not help me). He also said that Metro North has some signals around Stamford that show REAL SIGNAL ASPECTS instead of stop and cab speed. However they will be replaced soon. He also commented that the green of new Amtrak Colour Position Lights is very hard to see during the day and he would prefer the PRR amber lights or LED lights (as seen on traffic lights).
I also notices that Penn Station it now TOO FREAKING BRIGHT. B4 Penn sould just eat up your flash and everything would come out black. I planned to take my real camera along and so some times expousures, but now they have installed lighting everywhere. Any times shot would be ruined and it is STilL TOO daRK FOR NORmAL SHOTS! Amtrak has also installed LED signs on the tracks for train information. I walked to the head of the platform and saw A tower. A is above tracks 12 and 13 at the east end of the platform. you can access it from a spiral staircase on either platform. I did not venture up there this time. I also saw a whole bunch of LiAR trains accessing the west side yard. Now until a few weeks ago I thought the West Side yard was the former Penn Station B (or C) loacted in the 9th St. "pit" controled by KN tower. my interlocking diagram ID's this old yard as west side yard. Now I see that the old yard is gone and it is just an access track to the real west side yard. Can anyone provide me with some history about this? I also noticed that some of the LIAR M# cars have had thier yellow stripe stripped away on the side. why?
As we proceeded into new jersey I picked up HUDSON and NS UPPER BAY, UNION and DOCK on my scanner. The new Hammelton station was very well patronized. At Trenton I spotted 3 Limited Clear signals and when we got to philly I heard ZOO tower and I stopped our train on North Phidelphia tower's model board as we went past.
We arrived on time at 30th St. Airport. amtrak has re-painted (first time since 1940 probably) the lower level to a blue and light blue motif. when I went up the stairs I noticed that 2 of the stairways had turned into "Gates" (probably the ACELA tracks). I'll have to give a hats off to SEPTA. they have replaced the old B7W arrivals TV's at their downtown stations with new colour coded displays. they also have a big "next train to centre city" and "next train to university city" monitor. On the platforms are LED displays with the next trains due in on that track.
the 8th St. entrance to the PATco station has been redone and there is mich more lighting (good thing this time). it hurt to pay the outrageous 1.85 PATCO fare.
that's my trip, I'll be comming home on the sunday Vermonter. Please answer my questions indcatted with a ?.
ACELA - Amtark Customers Expect Late Arrivals is what I've heard.
I thought they replaced "A" tower at NYP and all moves are now controled through one centralized comptuer location. I could be wrong.
Nice trip report, did you notice at New Heaven track 4 (and 5) does not connect to anything (RR) west of the station. They have been storing MetroNorth trains on 4, backing them (east) out of the station to enter on 2 for boarding. That was a first for me this past weekend, normaly Metro North is off of the end platfoms (12/14) but with all the work in the station things are getting surprising.
1/3 is still for Amtrak, plus the connectors are all lying about on those tracks including the blue lights for when they are under the train. That New Haven Subway is a stop for me too, too bad nothing there for $1.50 >G<
I said that A tower is still physically there and the lights were on inside. MoW ppl probably use it for a hang out. I need to see if the interlocking machine is still there.
I noticed a Met N train on a track that went to nowhere. Thanks for the info.
Subway should accept Metrocards OR they should give out one of those punch cards where you bye 10 subs and get an 11th free. They could call it a metro card OR let people use their old metrocards. It would be a great way to recycle them.
>>>...Also I saw that some MNRR M3's had a red stripe all the way around while others had a full red face w/ white striping. Is that a newer or older scheeme?...<<<
The full red is a new scheme. You see it on MNRR Ms that have been rebuilt.
Peace,
ANDEE
This morning on my L train trip to B'way Junction I spied a LIRR diesel with a train of 3 dump cars beneath the El structure over by Pitkin Ave. There was a bulldozer and backhoe clearing debris from the western-most part of the ROW.
Either this is a continuation of the already noted joint MTA/LIRR/NY&A/NYCDOS garbage clean-up, or they are making way to lay new trackage.
Hopefully, more news will be forthcoming on this latest development.
(I might try and get a couple of shots sometime early tomorrow).
BMTman
Look at the same place next week. It will look like they never cleaned up this morning!
If that's true, they really could save a lot of money by installing some cameras and grabbing the dumpers.
If the line is cleaned up, what are the proposed uses for the ROW?
Will there be more trains using it? I remember when the line was under catenary and double tracked, then some trespassing kid got himself electrocuted while trying to ride on top of a freight car and his family cried about it to the newspapers. There are some things that you just do not do out here in the real world, but some of us do not get it.
The clean-up had more to do with community-based concerns about the latest West Nile virus carrying Mosquitos (thanks to the thousands of discarded tires on the ROW) than anything regarding future traffic conditons on the Bay Ridge line.
However, there is some evidence that more freight traffic will be handled by New York & Atlantic Railway via the Bay Ridge and the Bush Terminal float bridges in the near future.
BMTman
Whoa, Yee of little faith!
I just did an "inspection tour" this morning of part of the LIRR Bay Ridge ROW at East New York Avenue and Van Sinderen. The clean-up is continuing, with the area that had been cleared out last week (when the work started) remains clean. New fencing is helping with that, as well as tougher penalties on illegal dumpers.
BTW, I was able to snap off a few shots of the ENY tunnel (inside shots this time).
BMTman
They'll break the fence. Mark my words.
This may be true in some cases. BUT, alot of neighborhood folks are really onto this illegal dumping s--t, so it won't get too out-of-hand if it should reoccur.
Also, if periodic clean-ups are done, the crap that had been there for 20-some odd years of clutter, won't happen again.
BMTman
MTA/LIRR/NY&A/NYCDOS
How come they haven't upgraded to NYCWindows yet? :-)
Department of Sanitation
I haven't seen the rest of the line, but I work near what remains of Parkville Junction, and it looks remarkable. The right of way is completely clear of all debris.
The people involved in the clean up deserve kudos on a job well done. According to a few of the politicians that spoke to the media regarding the clean up the West Nile Virus scare was the main reason behind doing all of this.
This morning, I was on the B24 bus on my way to the 7 train. I noticed one of the ads on the bus shows a guy (Dominick Minicucci) in a business suit hanging from the straps of R33WF #9306 while some bald-headed construction worker-type guy looks at him with his face showing some kind of "is thsi guy crazy?" kind of look. This is an ad for a campaign to bring the Olympics to New York in 2012.
I have a question. Wouldn't the straps break off if too much weight is put on them?
I'll once again be visiting NYC (from Toronto) from October 19-23. Last year when I was there, I bought a weekly metrocard. Since I arrived at La Guardia, I had to wait until I got to the No. 7 line to buy the weekly pass. Has this changed? Are there any outlets at La Guardia which sell the weekly pass? I realize the pass must be activated at time of purchase, but perhaps the MTA has provided airport users/tourists with that added convenience, or would I be dreaming?!!!
Also, are there any must-see or must-do events while in NYC regarding the subway? Is the original City Hall Station still out of bounds for riders? Last year, I spent an entire Saturday with someone from this site who showed me a lot of Brooklyn, both via bus and subway. I hope to hook up with him again this year. I know the city and the subway like the back of my hand so venturing out on my own is no problem. Looking forward to another looooonnng weekend of riding the rails.
Thanks to Rudy, City Hall loop is still off limits, unfortunately.
>>I'll once again be visiting NYC (from Toronto) from October 19-23. Last year when I was there, I bought a weekly metrocard. Since I arrived at La Guardia, I had to wait until I got to the No. 7 line to buy the weekly pass. Has this changed? Are there any outlets at La Guardia which sell the weekly pass? I realize the pass must be activated at time of purchase, but perhaps the MTA has provided airport users/tourists with that added convenience, or would I be dreaming?!!! <<
According to a new brochure "Traveling Around By Subway And Bus" you can buy MetroCards at any Hudson Newstand in LaGuardia (it doesn't say which ones they will have). Have you considered ordering your Metrocard Online? http://metrocard.citysearch.com.
All you have to do is open an account online. The minimum purchase is $15.00. Regular mailing is FREE. The whole process takes 5 minutes or so. You would get the card in the mail in 2-3 days - possibly a bit longer once it gets to Canada.
They accept all major credit cards.
>>Also, are there any must-see or must-do events while in NYC regarding the subway? Is the original City Hall Station still out of bounds for riders? Last year, I spent an entire Saturday with someone from this site who showed me a lot of Brooklyn, both via bus and subway. I hope to hook up with him again this year. I know the city and the subway like the back of my hand so venturing out on my own is no problem. Looking forward to another looooonnng weekend of riding the rails. <<
Alas, City Hall is still off limits.
Offhand, I don't know of any special events regarding the subway for those dates but you might check the events section at the top of SubTalk.
Enjoy your stay.
Allan
hey ian... my advice is watch out for a guy name heypaul as he hasn't been taking his medication lately...
any metrocard is activated the first time you use it... so if you take the m-60 bus, the farebox will activate it...
Actually, if you are talking about the City Hall loop at the Brooklyn Bridge station for the Nos. 4, 5, and 6, I think you are allowed to ride through it. Recently, the TA issued a bulletin stating that the loop the turns the downtown No. 6 into the uptown No. 6 is not considered a relay track; therefore, customers are allowed to ride the train through it. No one will ask you to leave the train at that station.
But if you are talking about the abandoned station below the City Hall station on the N and R lines; alas, you are out of luck. No one is permitted in that area except for authorized persons and train crews who are laying up trains or are putting trains into service.
They have down in the lower level of City Hall the stupidest gate lock I have ever seen. It's a cab door lock, but with the loked part facing the lower level platform. So anyone can get in, but you need a key to get out! It's the gate at the bottom of the staircase, the one at the top is unlocked (sometimes not-too-bright cattlepassengers or tourists try to follow T/Os down there, and get herded back to the rest of the flock).
Hey, this is the same agency that installed emergency intercoms on the side wall opposite the platform about 12 feet above the roadbed at continental. What do you expect, logic?
That's interesting, Henry. I'll have to check that out the next time I'm assigned to a job at City Hall Station.
Thank you BMT Road Dogg.
I am glad to hear that some other posters are squelshing the rumor that you can not ride in the City Hall loop.
This question and the whole big bad Rudy RUMOR has gotten as played out as the other exhausting question: when are the R-142's coming?
Maybe you WERE, repeat WERE, forbidden to ride in the City Hall loop, but now you ARE, repeat ARE.
Oh and more thing, I hope no one actually believes that come January 1, 2002 when the new mayor is sworn in that the first thing on his (or her) agenda will be to proceed downstairs to the City Hal station and open it upo for the crowd.
There ARE other more PRESSING issues going on in the city.
OK, so am I to believe that we are now allowed to ride through the City Hall loop on the No. 6 as it becomes an uptown, without someone booting us off? If this is the case, which car would be the best to ride in - front or back - assuming the driver too is aware that passengers are OK to ride?
i feel particularly feverish this evening, what with it being friday the 13th and a full moon...
i have heard from my sauces that there is a proposal to change the regulations regarding railfans riding the city hall loop... for those railfans who like a little risk, a ring pull similar to the carousel in coney island will be installed ... if you pull a brass ring as the train passes through the city hall station, you will get a free fun pass good for one day's enjoyment of the transit system... if you pull a yellow ring, you will get a desk appearance ticket good for a 3 day passage through the criminal justice system...
i have heard from my sauces that there is a proposal to change the regulations regarding railfans riding the city hall loop
Really?? you talk to sauce?? Wow, you are weirder than I thought!!!
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
The week you are talking about there may be a "Field Trip" to Staten Island AND the opening of another station on the HBLR (Hudson-Bergen Light Rail).
Mr t__:^)
i think it would be best if the TA would construct a subway line going
under the narrows and running across staten island east to west. more over, make the line run to the south of the island once it hits its farthest west point. It would be good if line would make connection with sirt to make getting from one side of the island to the other easier. this would be a good move for staten island so it can get access to the other boroughs in the city. make staten island feel apart of the city. the line to best start with would be the R line. since it faces that way and is the only line that faces Staten Island it would open up a gate for the people in staten island to get around.
i would also say that the irt 1/9 would do wonders but, would the line structure at south ferry station allow it? i don't think so. overall, i think stretching a line to SI would be a good idea and it would be good if MTA made it apart of its next upcoming capital program.
terrence benjamin
This has been talked about for years. One of the original ideas of the VZ bridge was to run the R line on the lower level to SI. The Robert Moses & company auto lobby squashed that. Of course, in 1964 the price of gas was dirt cheap and nobody worried about Middle East Oil, even taking into account for inflation 36 years later. At this point, if the money were there, it would be much better spent on a Manhattan Bridge to tunnel substitution.
Staten Islanders do not want a subway connection anyway. They don't want to give the Brooklyn riff-raff easier access to their suburb-in-the-city paradise.
They DO want a rail connection to Manhattan, but not as a part of the broader subway system.
How 'bout a North Shore line to Perth Amboy, then up the N. Jersey Coast line to Penn Station. They'd need to string up some catenary, though...
If it's that suburban, let them use diesel.
BTW, isn't that Elizabeth across the Kill from the North Shore line?
Perth Amboy faces Tottenville, doesn't it?
Thas what I said earlier , swap the SIRR to NJ Transit for PATH. Both states crossing into each others territory. The presidence has been established with Conn MTA, and NJ Transit conimg itn Manhattan.
avid
I seem to hear the same thing having been said when they created the 63rd St tunnel with a station at Roosevelt Island; all of the undesirables would have access to it. But all of the claims turned out to be untrue. You don't hear of an influx of crime there. A subway to Staten Island would be a good thing. It could reduce travelling times and the number of cars that would cross the bridge going into Brooklyn into Manhattan.
But perception is reality. It doesn't matter that rail transit doesn't really bring in crime. If enough people on Staten Island BELIEVE that it does, they will oppose it.
And again, this is the LONG WAY. There's no point to connecting a slow line to an even slower line for a longer trip. If any connection to the rest of the city system is ever built for the SIR, it should go straight to Manhattan. It's the only route that makes any sense at all.
-Hank
I agree. An extension of the 1/9 lines from South Ferry would probably make the most sense.
I read on this website that the R Bay Ridge branch was supposed to be a 4-track line, with 2 tracks from S.I. running express and the other 2 from Bay Ridge running local. Not sure how much time this would've saved since it also leads through the dreaded DeKalb Ave. intersection.
Dekalb Ave right now cannot handle the appropriate traffic for it's current lines. Adding a line from Staten Island is foolish in the extreme.
Actually a branch off of NJ Transit or PATH or an extension of HBLR might be what SI residents are looking for.
"Actually a branch off of NJ Transit or PATH or an extension of HBLR might be what SI residents are looking for."
A HBLR extension is being talked about, so is a FREIGHT tunnel under the Hudson river.
Mr t__:^)
Pax tunnel under the River; freight under the Harbor?
Three shops had MDBF over 200,000 miles for the month of September.
Concourse was #1 with 224,977 miles
Corona was 2nd with about 212,000 miles
Jerome was 3rd with over 209,000 miles
The fleet MDBF was over 106,000 miles.
Keep up the great work!
I'll second that.
Congrats to Concourse and the R-68s -- not my favorite train, but as has been said before, the MTA doesn't run the system for us railfans.
Meanwhile, as a Redbird fan, seeing which fleet is ranked No. 2 is a moral victory, even if the R-33/36 WF fleet is going to be scattered about the mainline sometime within the next year. Going on those numbers, though, it would seem to make more sense to keep the No. 7 line's car roster together for as long as possible, since the Corona yard (and CI)are doing such a good job with them, and replace the Redbirds at the other yards with lower MDBFs first as the new R-142s arrive.
>>> The fleet MDBF was over 106,000 miles. <<<
If three shops are doing twice the fleet average, what is pulling the average down? Are all the rest of the shops hovering around 100K, or are several shops really bad? Also is there a chance of a fudge factor in reporting that would cause differences in different shops?
Tom
No Tom. Concourse Shop runs about 1.7 million miles per month. By contrast, Jamaica Shop runs nearly 6 million miles and Coney Island runs just over 4 million miles. Hence, those shops MDBF carry 3-4 times the weight in the overall fleet MDBF as Concourse Shop does. If either of those shops has a bad month, it can pull the fleet MDBF down.
(By contrast, Jamaica Shop runs nearly 6 million miles and Coney Island runs just over 4 million miles. Hence, those shops MDBF carry 3-4 times the weight in the overall fleet MDBF as Concourse Shop does. If either of those shops has a bad month, it can pull the fleet MDBF down.)
If my experience on the F in Brooklyn is any guide, September and October will be bad months in Jamaica.
Let us ignore the statistical limitations of a single month's snapshot. Would not the comparable performance of the Corona Yard tend to contradict NYCT'S assertion that link bars and removal redundant equipment is required for "improved" MDBF figures?
Yes and no. Keep in mind that the Corona Fleet is complised primarily of (married) R-36 cars. It also has some single car units. More telling are the 12 month moving MDBF statistics. Concourse shop has the highest 12 month moving MDBF in the south and Jerome has the highest 12 month moving MDBF in the north. Both have 4 and 5 car linled units, respectively. On the other hand, other shops have 4 and 5 car linked units and don't match the performance of jerome or Concourse. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Concourse and Jerome shops are neighbors in the north bronx.
BTW: Concourse cars have the highest miles/car/month in the system.
Are you saying that a train of Hippos spends more time in scheduled service then most of the other R types ?
Which R type spends the least time in scheduled service ?
Mr t__:^)
Not time but milage. In the southern division, the Concourse R-68s do roughly 6,000 per month/car. The Eastern cars J/L/M & Z run about 3,600 miles per month.
Does that mean that the Eastern Division runs at lower speeds or that their equipment spends fewer hours in service each month? If the latter, how does that square with the car shortage?
Does that mean that the Eastern Division runs at lower speeds or that their equipment spends fewer hours in service each month?
I think anyone who has ridden the L or J knows the answer to that question.
If the latter, how does that square with the car shortage?
At the present time, there is no car shortage. There are ample cars on all lines to meet full service requirements. The concern about a car shortage is based on projected needs when the V service opens and the short-fall due to the late arrival of the R-143s.
The lower miles per month on the eastern lines is significant only in that inspections must scheduled differently. While most lines schedule inspections via a milage window, eastern division cars are scheduled via a time-based window.
There are ample cars on all lines to meet full service requirements
Just how does NYCT define "service reqiurements"?
The same way we all do. If the NYCT requires X number of trains for full AM service and it has X trains in the AM, then it has full service. If they have X-1 train then they don't. Seems pretty straight foward to me.
I think we may have a chicken and egg question. What is the basis for deciding what AM service shuold be? Is it based on demand or on the number of "available" cars?
It seems to me that the "temporary" Manhattan Bridge problems required the elimination of about 50 to 60 rush hour trains. By rights there should be a surplus of at least 500 - 60 foot cars or their equivalent. What happened to these cars?
(It seems to me that the "temporary" Manhattan Bridge problems required the elimination of about 50 to 60 rush hour trains. By rights there should be a surplus of at least 500 - 60 foot cars or their equivalent. What happened to these cars?)
The City and State shortchanged the TA in the recession and it stopped buying cars, that's what. I'm not sure, but this may be the longest stretch in subway history without any new cars going into service (someone can probably figure it out. The last R68s entered service in, what, 1990? It may be 2001 before the first R142s are finally certified as accepted. Perhaps the 1940s was as long. Then again, the 1940s followed a depression and included a World War.
Assuming the TA needs to match supply to demand to keep it's operating costs down, it would probably only run 10 -- 12 more trains in the rush hour if the Manny B was fully open and the cars were available. But that's a 20 percent increase, and believe me it's absence is felt. Plus, those and all the existing trains would be faster. Even the Montigue Tunnel trains would be "faster" to one's destination, since with more trains going direct to Midtown the only people in the tunnel would be those working downtown.
First, operations planning does not really consider the number of cars 'available' when they make up their service proposals. Many times ops planning people have (privately) said Car Equipment has too many cars out of service for maintenance and less maintenance should be done. Of course, we know, based on the trend of the MDBF, this is not true.
Second, the elimination of 50-60 trains (and I'm not sure that those numbers are correct)does not provide a surplus of 500 - 600 cars. Clearly, you can cancel 6 rush hour runs on the E train, for example and save only one 10-car consist. Unless a train makes only 1/2 of a trip during rush hour and then lays up, is your statement valid. On the longer lines (A, B, D, F, etc) a train consist will make 2 - 3 runs.
The 50 - 60 train figure was my guesstimate based on the following assumptions. Each track on the MB used to run between 25 and 30 tph. Two of those tracks are now out of service. That leaves 50 - 60 trains short.
I assumed that there was not sufficient time to turn around a single train within that hour. I will concede that many trains were turned around at 57th St and would run both uptown and downtown within a one hour period. I did not completely double count because many runs terminated at Queensboro Plaza or Astoria. However, there are still at least 250 - 300 missing surplus cars. Can you accept this number as a more accurate baseline figure?
First - Congratulations !!!
Concourse shop has the highest 12 month moving MDBF in the south and Jerome has the highest 12 month moving MDBF in the north.
North and South ?
Also - how does the size of the yard come into play?
"Also - how does the size of the yard come into play?"
The size of the yard doesn't come into play while the size of the fleet is an indirect factor. MDBF is the fleet milage for a given period divided by the number of charged delays for that same period. Since Jamaica Shop's milage is roughly 3.5 times that of the Concourse, their MDBF is weighted 3.5 times that of Concourse Shop in the overall fleet MDBF.
North and South ?
North is IRT and south is BMT/IND
These are the subway line that will support the Second Avenue- Staten Island Connection. They are BMT, IND despite them using numbers. I decided to show the stops along the line to see what you think.
Second Avenue Local- 12 Line
125 Street- East Harlem
East 116 Street
East 110 Street
East 105 Street
East 97-96 Street
East 86 Street
East 79-80 Streets
East 72 Street
East 65 Street
East 59 Street
East 50 Street
East 42 Street
East 34 Street
East 23 Street
East 14 Street
Avenue C
East Houston Street
Grand Street- East Broadway
Essex Street
Worth Street
Frankfort Street
Fulton Street
Wall Street
Broad Street
South Street- Battery Park
St. George Subway Terminal
Bay Street
Forest Avenue
Broad Street
Clove Road
Royal Oak Road
Manor Road
Harold Street
Ashworth Avenue
Merry Mount Street
S.I Mall- Richmondtown
Second Avenue Express, Bronx Thru Express- 14 line
Dyre Avenue- Eastchester
Pehlam Parkway
Morris Park
East 180 Street Terminal
East 174 Street
Westchester Avenue
Story Avenue
Elder Avenue
Longfellow Avenue
149 Street
Westchester Avenue- The Hub
East 125 Street- Manhattan
East 59 Street
East 42 Street-United Nations
East 14 Street
Grand Street- East Broadway
Wall Street
South Street-Battery Park
St.George Subway Terminal- S.I
Tompkinsville
Stapleton
Clifton
Grasmere
Old Town
Dongan Hills
Jefferson Avenue
Grant City
New Dorp
Oakwood Hights
Bay Terrance
Great Kills
Eltingville
Annadale
Huguenot
Princes Bay
Pleasant Plains
Richmond Valley
Atlantic
Main Street-Tottenville
Chris,
Isn't Grand St. BELOW Essex St.? Essex St. stop should be before Grand St.
JDL
Essex street runs lengthwise, Grand Street runs across the island (although only to 6th Avenue). The two streets intersect.
While you're at it, why don't you extend the line from Tottenville to Perth Amboy?
No, extend it under the Raritan Bay to Sandy Hook and then on to Atlantic Highlands.
Whoah! Easy there. It would be hard enough to extend the "R" line accross The Narrows.
Hey. While we're at it, why don't we extend the 1/9 up to Montreal.
;)Andrew
At least my Sea Beach is not in this equation, but I'm told it is going to terminate at 86th Street for the forseeable future. Any accuracy to that? I have relatives in Staten Island and they say there will never be a subway line extended there because the people don't want it and won't stand for it being rammed down their throats. So it would seem the arguments presented are moot.
N trains will terminate at 86th St. while the Stillwell Ave. terminal is being rebuilt.
Well, if Allan Sherman can send the IRT #2 to the North Pole...via Cape Cod...UNDERGROUND...
If the subway went to Westchester, where do you think it should go?
1/9 somewhere into Yonkers. 2 into Mount Vernon and 5 or 6 into Pelham and New Rochelle.
Since I know squat about those areas, I need somebody to tell me where the lines should stop and what the stations should be before the border.
You'll get credit for it!
Again, I am going to promote my Concourse Line extension connecting with the former NY Central Harlem Division tracks at 205th St & Webster Ave in the Bronx. The rapid transit service could take up the immediate overflow from the southern Westchester communities like Mt Vernon. The junction at at 233rd St provides feeder links to the central and eastern part of Westchester County.
The remnant of the NYW&B, the Dyre Ave Line is no longer viable to go any further north to the to former New Haven GCT line which is eastern part of the line mentioned above. I think that the ROW extends unused to the county line and a little further north to where a massive steel viaduct once existed for the NYW&B.
On the Hudson side, you would have to rebuild the original IRT Broadway structure and bridge over the Harlem river to connect the Washington Hights subway with the Hudson River line. However, the line would have to loop back utilizing the former Kingsbridge yard area which is now gone to gain access to the Hudson Div Tracks.
The Kingsbridge connection could also accomodate the reuse of the former NYC Putnam Division ROW for rapid Transit use. However, I am not sure how much of anything remains of that ROW.
I mention this Kingsbridge connection, assuming that another span over or another tunnel under the Harlem river to connect the Washington Hts Line with the Bronx is cost prohibitive.
The former New Haven Shore Line is a natural link to the 2nd Ave subway, if the Harlem River tunnel for that line is ever built.
The old Putnam division of the NY Central railroad is still working, albeit with infrequent freight service. The tracks go up to Elmsford, or slightly north of that town. The powers that be would not even consider upgrading the right of way for use by commuters, as good ideas are not part of the current modality.
I thought the entire line was abandoned north of the Bronx back in the 70's. Or, was that part of it put back in service since then?
Mellow One:
The tracks to the Putnam division ROW between the Bronx and Elmsford were pulled up a few years ago to make way for the South County trailway bicycle path. The bicycle path runs from Barney Street in Yonkers to Main Street (Route 119) in Elmsford.
BMTJeff
Ok, thanks, that's what I thought.
At least the ROW is intact, so we can still dream.
Is the Yonkers / Getty Square ROW sill intact also?
Mellow One:
A small portion of the Getty Square branch of the Putnam Division ROW may still be intact. I think a small portion Getty Square branch of the Putnam Division ROW in Van Cortlandt Park is in use as a path of some sort at this time.
BMTJeff
I don't think so! The tracks have been pulled up well south of Elmsford. The former Putnam ROW is now the "North County Trailway" or something like that. Go north on the Saw Mill Parkway and get off at, I think, exit 13 (more of a simple right turn than an exit ramp). There is a parking lot there for use by hikers on the trail, which runs parallel to the Parkway.
The North County Trailway runs on the old Putnam ROW from approximately Eastview up to Baldwin Place (at the Putnam County border), though there may be a break somewhere around Hawthorne. IMHO the section between Baldwin Place and Kitchawan is the best, and includes an old railroad bridge over the Croton Reservoir. It also passes through the heart of my hometown, Yorktown Heights. :-) (The railroad depot is still standing, though last I looked the caboose in Penn Central livery that used to live there has been removed.) South of Kitchawan the trail parallels Route 100, the Taconic, and the Saw Mill, making it somewhat less peaceful-- this section does not appear to be as well used or as well maintained as the more northerly sections.
We're not talking from a practical standpoint, we're talking completely pie in the sky. I wan't to do the "signature announcements" again, but got stuck when I got to Westchester.
OINK, BOARshevik leader
---Second Avenue Local- 12 Line
I'll post my thoughts on this.
---125 Street- East Harlem
---East 116 Street
These were the first two stops in Manhattan. No locals that I created ended at 125 St, though.
---East 110 Street
---East 105 Street
===106 Street
---East 97-96 Street
---East 86 Street
---East 79-80 Streets
---East 72 Street
---East 65 Street
Did you read my min^H^H^H old posts? These are exactly as I had them, except that I used only the lower-numbered streets.
---East 59 Street
===57 Street (no transfer planned)
---East 50 Street
---East 42 Street
---East 34 Street
---East 23 Street
---East 14 Street
Have same.
---Avenue C
---East Houston Street
---Grand Street- East Broadway
---Essex Street
---Worth Street
---Frankfort Street
---Fulton Street
---Wall Street
---Broad Street
---South Street- Battery Park
It looks like you're making some sort of run towards the Lower East Side. This was not included in my plans because it would have impeded efficiency of the express lines. However, I did have a stop around Houston/Avenue C on the Utica Avenue line (which met at the 2nd/Houston station).
---St. George Subway Terminal
I always considered the tunnel idea ridiculous. However, I did at one point create a Victory Boulevard subway. I think that this is the corridor you've taken.
---Bay Street
---Forest Avenue
---Broad Street
---Clove Road
---Royal Oak Road
---Manor Road
I think you erred here. Broad Street does not join Victory Boulevard.
===Monroe Avenue
===Jersey Street
===Forest Avenue
===Silver Lake (Theresa Place)
===Sunnyside (Clove Road)
===Little Clove Road
===Manor Road
---Harold Street
---Ashworth Avenue
---Merry Mount Street
---S.I Mall- Richmondtown
Here, it diverges. My route continued on Victory Boulevard and Richmond Avenue, as:
===Bradley Avenue
===Willowbrook (Willowbrook Road)
===Signs Road
===Travis Road
===Staten Island Mall
---Second Avenue Express, Bronx Thru Express- 14 line
And this one, too...
---Dyre Avenue- Eastchester
Not quite this way.
===Bartow Avenue/Co-Op City Boulevard (shared with Concourse extension)
===Eastchester Road/Allerton Avenue.
---Pehlam Parkway
---Morris Park
---East 180 Street Terminal
The second of these is not an "express" stop in the Dyre Av Line/NYW&B ROW.
---East 174 Street
---Westchester Avenue
---Story Avenue
---Elder Avenue
---Longfellow Avenue
---149 Street
This segment strikes me as hard to follow. For the line up to East 180, I instead used a straight Boston Avenue underground alignment.
---Westchester Avenue- The Hub
---East 125 Street- Manhattan
Second and third of the express stops I had (first was 163).
---East 59 Street
===96 Street
===72 Street
---East 42 Street-United Nations
---East 14 Street
(remainder irrevelant for comparison)
Also had 34 Street, though I am willing to drop it.
Car #5467 yesterday had no storm window, it appeared to have been kicked into the area between cars (was still there, rubber molding strewn about). At B'way ENY westbound, they finally closed the car (by cutting out each door individually, and kicking us out). We arrived in lower Manhattan at 5:20 PM (perfect time to be short one car).
There's an R-44 set on the shuttle with 5316-5317-5405-5318. Where's 5319, or 5404 & family?
When the R44 GOH program was done, the total number of cars was not divisible by 4 so there were 2 cars left over: 5478 & 5479. Those 2 were mated with the proper partners for 5404/05 (that info is elsewhere on nycsubway.org) so the latter cars became spares. 5404 is still a spare car & canibalized for parts, while 5405 replaced 5319 a few years ago. It seems that 5319, while laying over at Far Rockaway, a homeless guy was set afire by some young punks. He was seriously burned and some to the car was torched in the process (plastic melted). 5319 was deemed unrepairable so some of its' parts were used to resurrect 5405 which was also cannibalized. Now 5319 & 5404 are the "parts" cars joining R32 GE's 3934/35 at 207 St, 3784/85 at Jam Yard, 5486/87/89/5488 at CIYD among others.
anyone know if the newark subway is running on weekends?
Nope, and won't be until the Kinkishayros take over and "replace" the PCCs (as if anything could).
They've kept it open a few holiday weekends, IIRC; but, in general, it's closed on weekends for the duration of the construction.
the last few days while coming home at around 3:45 and 4:15 i have seen an out of service M train going through the 59th st station on the manhattan bound local track. this may be a stupd question with an obvious answer but where could this train be coming from and why?
thanks,
tim
The work on the West End means only a few trains can get through at a time, so Ms use the Sea Beach Exp and go in service at 36th.
Not nearly as strange as what happened back in '97. I'm standing at 34th/6th, and an M train with passengers comes in! The train goes all the way to Queensbridge, and deadheads back to wherever. The strange thing is, a week later, it happened again!
Now, did these Ms come from 4th ave via Manny B or from Jamaica ave via Willy B?
I made that move a few times while I was on the M. It would be because of a blockage in the Montague St. tunnel. Gotta go somewhere! Can't stop & stay and block up the rest of the railroad! So after 21 St, we went lite to Bway Lafayette, thru the un-used K line connection and get sent home to Met. going back into service at Essex St. at the dispatchers discretion.
I wish you would take passengers when you do that. We could use direct service from Midtown on the Myrtle line.
Thanks for answering my own question well before I asked it.....lol
I also remember seeing this. IIRC, they were rerouted M trains which couldn't access the Montague St. tunnel and ran up 6th Ave over the Manny B to Queensbridge. I wonder if the used the Chrystie St. connection to get back onto the eastern division.
If the train/crew was needed at Met it did, if not, it went back to Bay Pkwy over the MannyB.
today like all other days i went to the cortlandt street N/R station after work to begin my trek home and for some reason the dry-erase board in the token booth said "no brooklyn bound N/R service" and all the turnstyles said no entry and had the no entry symbal(red circle with white bar). a good number of angry and confused commuters like myself were standing there trying to figure out what was going on but the people at the token booth didn't seem to have any information. what was weird was that the uptown N train was across the platform running normally and some people were standing on the downtown platform. eventually an announcement was made that a downtown N train was leaving city hall and would be arriving at cortlandt shortly and after all the sighs and looks of confusion by that announcement the tokenclerk opened the gate and everyone walked in for free. a minute later they turned the turnstyles on and the train came. the train was extremely slow and they announced it would be running on the local track. we FINALLY get to 59th st and they announce at the station that the R train was arriving on the express track. the R train pulls just the tip of the first car into the station and the motorman sits there looking angry waiting for the signal to turn green. after a minute of that the train finally pulls into the station and makes all its stops to 95th st. what caused the temporary break in downtown N/R service?
later,
tim
GO METS
I am a Station Agent. We do not always know why there is no train. We do have the phone number for the tower but often times, and especially in the case of major problems, the tower wont answer the phone. OFten they wont make announcements as to what is going on either.
All booths have a scanner that must remain on at all times that monitors control for such a reason. Myself excluded, many S/A unplug the scanner in favor of their boom box, CD, Air Purifier, etc. Also, many S/A (Myself excluded_ that dont unplug the scanner wiil turn them off or turn the volume down to inaudible. I work as a Lunch relief. The first thing I do is turn on the scanner and turn up the volume.
Most of the scanners loose their memory when unplugged or simply wont work when they are plugged in. I carry my own, bought with personal funds, hand scanner and will monitor control if I sense crowds on a platform or a gap in service or if a customer asks whyt here is no train.
Today, at about 6:10 PM, I saw an R-38 "C" with red stripes under the number plates disappear into the turning tracks at Euclid. Having read recently that there was something special about this train, I decided to wait for it to come back around, passing up the rare R-32 A in the process. When I rode it, I was surprised that the acceleration sounds were vaguely like the R-110B, R-142/A, and MFL M-4. What, exactly, is up with this train?
BTW: Car #s from east to west:
4107-4106-4069-4068-4037-4036-4028-4029
What's an R32-A? How is it different from the R-32?
That's a R32 running on the A line.
That train must be kept together as one unit and has a/c propulsion. The cars can be on that train in any order. The underside of those cars obviously look different as well.
I suspected the underside would look different, so at 34st I ran to the express platform to see. Unfortunately, I was at the middle of the train (after collecting car #s), and the crossover is at the front. I got there just in time to see some odd-looking beige boxes under 4029 before it disappeared into the tunnel.
I guess that must be the R-38 AC traction test train
Okay, today the South Channel Bridge opened once at 5:00 PM, backing trains up to N.Conduit (practice during bridge openings is to stop&stay in a station). Then, again at 5:20, and before the signals could clear the bridge opened again at 5:28. I had planned on going to Far Rock and taking the LIRR home, but settled on taking the A back because I knew I couldn't make the 5:53 train.
Water traffic takes priority over rail/car traffic at all times in the United States(order of the U.S. Coast Guard).
The theory being that the water was there before the bridge was. So if there is a lot of boat traffic in the area, the bridge will just have to open as many times as necessary.
I thought that the bridge required 24 hour notice before it could be opened. A buddy of mine in the Broad Channel fire department told me, and I read about something like that here.
BTW: The North Channel bridge will never open again. The control booth is gone, but more importantly the rail is continuous throughout the bridge.
Only the Harlem River bridges require that, but in reality, if a ship wants to go through, the bridge must open for it.
-Hank
Well subject to the condition that it is safe to open the bridge and the dispatcher has the final word on that.
No, Federal Maritime law provides that marine traffic always has the right of way, so if a bridge on a waterway must be opened for it, then it must be opened. The only excuse is a bridge malfunction, for which there is a notification procedure.
-Hank
A boat can't just come up and say 'Open it now' can they?.
Can't the operator of the bridge say 'NO', a train (or trains) are in the immediate vicinity and traveling at high speeds. They will be here in approximately .... (fill in the time) and may not be able to stop in time. 'YOU' must wait?
No, it doesn't work that way. Marine craft usually notify sufficiently in advance of their approach that they need the ROW cleared for them. This is usually sufficent time for the proper proceedure, whether it be clearing the bridge to open, or having the marine traffic wait.
-Hank
I think it also has to do with the ease that trains can be stopped vs water traffic. That's why water traffic gets priority. At one time, I worked out of the Hammel's Wye tower. Very interesting how the bridge is operated.
Can you give us details
Water traffic takes priority over rail/car traffic at all times in the United States(order of the U.S. Coast Guard). The theory being that the water was there before the bridge was. So if there is a lot of boat traffic in the area, the bridge will just have to open as many times as necessary.
Not necessarily. Many drawbridges on busy roads open only pre-determined schedules.
Not true. This is Federal law. However on some drawbridges, notice must be given in advance.
The Woodrow Wilson Bridge on the Capital Beltway is never opened during rush hours.
The last time I checked, the same was true for downtown Chicago.
>>> Water traffic takes priority over rail/car traffic at all times in the United States(order of the U.S. Coast Guard). The theory being that the water was there before the bridge was. <<<
I think the reason water traffic has priority has more to do with the relative ability to maneuver between water traffic and traffic crossing a bridge. Large heavily laden ships may take more than a mile to stop even if they are going only ten knots, and as they lose speed in a river which has a current, they lose the ability to steer.
There are similar rules giving the right of way to a sailing vessel over a vessel under power, for the same reason, the sailing vessel is less maneuverable than a powered vessel. When there were three masted sailing ships and side wheel steamers that were about the same size, the rule made good sense. But the present day sailor on a 30 foot sloop who calls out to a freighter over a bullhorn "UNDER SAIL" to get the right of way, will probably hear, after a toot of the ship's horn, the response "STEEL HULL!!" The prudent sailor gives way.
Tom
I recall there were problems with that bridge last week as well. It jammed open during the morning rush for a spell.
I had to grab a C train instead.
BMTman
Going up to 175th street/GWB on my way in I noticed a wierd thing happened. I was on a D train, which I took from 42nd street and change to the A at 59th street. Every time we made a stop on this D train, the door chimes in our car sounded only when the doors OPENED!!
The car # was 2688.
I got off at 59th and an A train of R44's was right behind. Today we flew up the CPW express, those R44's are awesome. Going back from GWB in the afternoon, I had another quick ride on the R44 A train as it whizzed down CPW, and that stretch right before 42nd street.
I waited for an F train on the 6th ave line, when I saw a strange sight. An R32 Q train (this was around 5pm). I thought I seeing things when I saw that digital Q sign and an R32. How the heck did that wind up there?
On the ride back on the F, I noticed between 71st/Cont and Roosevelt Manhattan bound E,F were running on the local track.
What's up with that?
Also I notice on weekends when the express or any track is closed they put red lights on the switch.
E and Fs always end up local at some point in the day, sometimes they get to go express on the local. Usually overcrowding on the express tracks behind a stalled train is the cause. My absolute favorite is when G and R trains get to go express right by my stop (sometimes on the express track, sometimes on the local track) when I'm about to be late for school.
The door chimes on open, I remember that happening a few times on the R-46, still not quite as strange as door chimes when the C/R uses the PA (both tones at once for as long as he holds the PA button... ugh!)
The R-32 Q is the one regular rare sight I have not seen (car assignments wise). It is said to occur on average about once or twice a month. Since the N gets to share the Qs slants, sometimes there aren't enough for the Q and they must put in an R-32 from the N.
As for that red light thing, they tend to put it in some pretty strange places, like the 63rd st connector that's not done yet, or 10 feet in front of a concrete building on the new Rockaway line track (whew, I never would have noticed that 10' tall building if it wasn't for those little red lights!).
The red lights mean that there is a G.O. on that track and it has been taken out of service. A portable trip will accompany the red lantern or red banker lights and a red cord will lay across the left hand running rail. The cord when crushed(run over) leaves a red dye mark on the rail and running wheel of the train that ran it over so as to identify the guilty party.
It will also ground out the 600 volts from cable to rail and scare the crap out of one who passes over it. That happened to me once while running a work train over a former G.O. track put back into service. The flagman took his lamps and trips but not the burned out bank of lights. Never heard about the red dye and I would figure the dye would rub off after a mile or two or on curves and guardrails. Generally, the rope for the lamp and trip is cut by flanges.
Car #2688 will be checked over the weekend. Without re-opening the whole hippo debate, I recently rode an R-44 southbound on CPW. The fastest point is at 86th St. The R-44 hit an amazing 34 MPH and felt much faster. Last night my R-68 glided through that same area at 38 MPH although it felt much slower. This proves nothing, of course. Just another observation.
There are also a few R-68s that have no chimes at all. But I ain't spillin' any car numbers 'cause I like the silence. Sorry. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
:) We find them and repair them on inspection. Sorry
Ahhhh, but you have to find them. In the interest of fair play here's a hint of the 3 I'm aware of 2 are south motors and one is a north motor. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
By the time we get them into the shop, north and south motors are irrellavent. And I can assure you, we do find them.
Oh, I know that, and trust that you will
Peace,
ANDEE
Here's a link to today's Boston Globe article.
Was surprised that no where in the article did anyone at the "T" say that they expected more folks to use the buses due to this change. They talked about the 2 to 3 million dollar loss ... that's about the way the talk was when MetroCard free transfers were introduced. It will be interesting to watch the traffic numbers.
Mr t__:^)
The morning commute was once again an F'ing nightmare on the F from Brooklyn.
This time it was a sick passenger, not a mechanical failure. In the middle of the good service we've had for the past decade it would have merited on "oh well." But coming on the needs of repeated bad commutes due to door problems, it seems like yet another piece of a building transit Armageddon. People were really testy and pissed off. Some talked about service going downhill (yes I know the sick passenger is unrelated to the mechanical problems, but they don't).
On behalf of New York City Transit I wish to extend my regrets on the service you have experienced. Queens Boulevard Service is a unique challenge due to heavy ridership and a major capital expansion program involving the construction of new trackage to allieviate congestion which should open around October, 2001.
Please realize that NYCT can not control the health of their employees[although they may try], contractors or customers and makes every effort to get trains moving again as soon as possible. NYCT even has nurses and EMTs at key stations to assess medical issues and get the trains moving as soon as practical. Perhaps they will consider adding such coverage to Queens Blvd.
Well, Larry, they don't call it the F-Train for nothing...;-)
BMTman
Fifty years ago tonight at 9 PM (it was also a friday in 1950), a special six car train of BU's left Eastern Parkway for a final special trip to Bridge-Jay St on the Lexington Ave el in Brooklyn. The train, made up of gate cars 1349, 1398, 1375, 1379, 1367 & 1395 completed the round trip in 51 minutes. There was standing room only!
Only a teenager, I was a passenger for the complete trip, riding one of the platforms in mid-train. It was a thrill but a very sad occasion as well. I would no longer see gate cars going by my home near Crescent St on the Jamaica Line during rush hours.
The end of service meant the end of Lexington Ave Line gate cars running from Bridge-Jay to 111th St on the Jamaica Line during rush.
It also meant the end of Fulton-Lex Line gate cars running from Bridge-Jay to Grant Ave in City Line during rush.
It was the end of revenue service for the few remaining 600, 900, 1200 & 1400 series BU cars.
The 1300 series BU's were transferred to the Myrtle Ave Line, where they would survive for another eight years.
Seven years later I left the city to make my home in Penna, but this trip will be my fondest, yet saddest memory of my youth in Brooklyn as a transit fan.
An important anniversary like this shouldn't pass without being noted. While I never rode the Lexington elevated in Brooklyn, I recall fondly the open platform wood gate cars on the Ravenswood line in Chicago. To quote another railfan: "The world was a better place."
"The world was a better place."
I'd have to agree with that!
Say, Karl, how many conductors were there on that last train?
It was a six car train so there were five gatemen. The gateman closest to the motorman was normally the senior man. There was also a police officer in uniform on each car. One rode on the platform I was on.
I rode the whole trip on a platform between cars. I knew the gateman at that location, plus the fact that there were no seats available.
It was a chilly night but not cold enough for snow. Snow would have made the trip perfect, because the gate cars were beautiful in the snow at night.
8:50 am. Set out to board Brooklyn-bound 'G' or Manhattan-bound 'R' train this morning at Steinway Street. Announcement: "Because of an investigation at Roosevelt Avenue, there is no local service between Roosevelt Avenue & Queens Plaza..." Crossed over to Queens-bound trains & rode to Roosevelt. Crossed over for inbound service. Saw 'G' train stopped halfway into station. On the tracks in front of it was a man in an orange vest searching under the lead car with a flashlight. Overheard in crowd: "Musta been a jumper or got pushed..." Was running a bit late, so got on Manhattan-bound 'F' and went to work. That's all I got.
That's funny. My "F" was slow this morning, but not unusually so. Usually a delay on the local seems to result in a sympathetic delay in the espress too.
Andrew
Probably local trains competing with your express for space on the express tracks betw. 71st-Continental & QP., though I don't see how a Brooklyn-bound 'G' stuck in the rear of Roos. prevents the 'R' or 'G' from shunting over to the local tracks south of Roos. to provide local service betw. Roos. & QP...
...Maybe the stuck train was fouling the signal block all the way past the express-local crossover south of Roos.?
I saw it, around 9 am. Either the G wasn't moving that fast or the operator dumped while they were still in the tunnel because there wasn't much of the train in the station. I guess the signal system had no way of knowing that train wasn't going to stop in time to avoid derailing at the switch. I did see a couple trains stuck behind the G with nowhere to go. That must have sucked.
That incident came over the radio at newsradio 88 as a police investigation, which usually means a criminal investigation. Anyone have any more news about this?
Friends,
Dave Pirmann does us all a great service by hosting this board. Unfortunately, over time there have been a number of posters who have seen fit to abuse the privilege by posting personal attacks, racial and ethnic slurs, or other such garbage. These posts have been on the rise again, enough so that I have had to ask Dave on two occasions recently to delete portions of threads that I felt had gone way over the boundary of decency (and I've got a pretty thick skin). I am concerned that, as a result of these posts, Dave will decide to shut down this board. Like most of us, he's here because he enjoys transit; he's not here to be a netcop or a babysitter. Please, folks, keep it clean - for Dave's sake, for your own sake, and for the rest of us too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I totally agree. Most if not all of us here are here to discuss transit-related topics. This is the place to discuss them. This is NOT a place to make insults towards other people on this board. LET'S NOT HAVE ANOTHER BUSTALK FIASCO! (Or anything worse for that matter.)
What happened to Trevor Logan a while back in bustalk?
I head that there was a flame war or something?
Let's not get into that, please. THe whole thing was about someone trying to embarass him, and failing at it miserably.
-Hank
i agree with you & keeping all posts about rail transit ....
not just nyc.
indeed, well said.
(Unfortunately, over time there have been a number of posters who have seen fit to abuse the privilege by posting personal attacks, racial and ethnic slurs, or other such garbage.)
I never see these. If someone posts that sort of stuff, and doesn't post enough good stuff to offset it, I just skip their posts. I don't have time to read all this stuff anyway.
No one with even a modicum of intelligence would disagree with the premise that we should all cooperate to keep flamage down to the vanishing point. And I believe we will all strive to bring this about. There is one thing, though, that could impact this. There are times when we give opinions of what we know, think we know, what we see and what we saw, and someone takes that very personal and the board lights up with all sorts of insulting remarks and comebacks. A person has the right to express his thoughts without being held to ridicule or insult. We must keep in mind that as long we do not insult one another personally, whatever we say about a team, train, borough, etc, must be allowed to be stated without fear of a thought police trying to reign people in. If that is followed, I see no problem in making this work.
since i will be shooting all of the redbirds 4 6 2 5 7 starting from monday the 23 of october 2000,my question is the following .....
which subway lines shoud i shoot that do not use express tracks monday thru friday?? And also which lines do you reccomend for videotaping on saturday?? Maybe the L line??
You are asking me? If you are, you should be able to guess without much trouble at all. Do a good job and have fun.
thats ok too but what lines that do not use express tracks during the week but also run saturday & I am sorry it seems i made the mistake of not asking a more clear question for example: since i only have abouyt two weeks to shoot any suggestions on saturday shooting etc.
there must be at least two lines that do not have express tracks somewhere like maybe the L line ( i did not see any express tracks )
thats ok too but what lines that do not use express tracks during the week but also run saturday & I am sorry it seems i made the mistake of not asking a more clear question for example: since i only have about two weeks to shoot any suggestions on saturday shooting etc.
there must be at least two lines that do not have express tracks somewhere like maybe the L line ( i did not see any express tracks )
Salaam, do the Canarsie L line on Saturday as the passenger loads with be VERY light. That line is a "rush hour" route, meaning that on weekends, you see a totally different almost non-existent passengers.
Lines like the Brighton, Culver, Sea Beach or West End tend to have large crowds even on weekends because those routes serve touristy, amusement areas (Coney Island, Broadway, Times Square, Greenwich Village, etc.).
BMTman
10/13/2000
Salaam,
May you upcoming journey be blessed with numerous clean scratch free railfan windows !
The way it used to be in days of olde !
Bill "Newkirk"
As I've said a couple of times before ... just because the phone rings, it doesn't mean you have to answer it.
When I suspect it's CRANK calling I let it ring. But if you just must answer it ... count to ten before you say hello.
Mr t__:^)
A while back there was mention of a trip on the ferry and down the SIR for Thursday the 19. Is this still a happening event?
Negotiations are still underway between the hosts of the tour. When negotiations conclude, the info will be posted to Subtalk.
"Due to a subtalker(Not me) with computer difficulties we are experiencing residual delays in tour arrangements. We regret this inconvenience and thank you for attending Subtalk Tours."
I assure you info will be posted. If one of the hosts does not respond the other hosts will continue arrangement without this host.
It looks like I can do it, will post Monday when I know for sure.
OK. So the old look of LIRR M1s and M3s had a big "M" with the words "LONG ISLAND" under it.
Before Metro-North, what was under the "M" on the Bronx/Westchester/Upstate "M" series? I've seen "M"/"NEW HAVEN" before. What about on the Hudson and Harlem lines?
:)Andrew
The "old look" of the M1A and 1100 cars with the two-tone "M" logo had the word "CENTRAL" under the "M". The FL-9 locomotives were mostly in the MTA/Penn Central scheme, which was medium blue with a yellow nose and a giant PC/worm logo on the side. A few were PC black or NH McGinnis.
I don't recall an MTA identification with this paint scheme, though the motley assortment of coaches then mostly had blue windowbands with the aforementioned "M/CENTRAL" logo near the bulkheads.
I don't recall if the RDC cars had an "M" logo, if memory serves correctly most retained the NY Central paint scheme to the end (orange and black bulkhead visibility stripes). Perhaps someone else can carry this further.
While we're at it, what part did the MTA play in this service before the advent of Metro North? These lines were operated by Conrail, were they not?
Andrew
The MTA subsidized their operation, in cooperation with Conn DOT for the New Haven Line, both under Conrail and Penn Central operation. I believe also that the NY Central was subsidized by the state of New York before the MTA's creation, but how I am unclear as to exactly how and through what agency.
This poses several interesting questions.
I'd be interested in hearing from an expert on how much property Metro-North owns. I believe that they got the Hudson and Harlem ROW and trains from Conrail, but that GCT came later on. Do they own more of the Harlem line than they currently use, perhaps to Millerton, and did they have to acquire the land when they extended the Harlem Line to Wassaic? I recall a routing relocation west-of-Hudson about 1983 or so, and as I understand it Metro-North owns the Southern Tier Line from Suffern to Port Jervis as well as the old Erie main to Piermont. They also own the Beacon line. On paper, who actually owns the property? Is it the State per se, or the MTA? Was any of the Putnam Division land included? The "Put" (what little of it survived into the 1970s and 80s, e.g. the spur to Stella Doro in the Bronx) would have been about isolated with the Metro-North takeover, as was the West Side Line.
I also understand that Conrail/CSX has permanent, exclusive trackage rights for freight on the Hudson Line, CP/StL&H has only overhead rights.
Can anyone elaborate?
The "M", or meatball as it is commonly known, had METRO NORTH underneath it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Was the M# unit used in the movie "The Ice Storm" (which takes place mostly in New Canaan) accurate for the 1970s? It looked like they just took today's New Haven Line equipment and pasted a PennCentral worm logo over the MTA logo.
Are there any pictures on this site of the pre-Metro North Harlem/Hudson Line trains with the "M"/Central logo?
Well I just got my Amtrak 2000 vacation planner and here's a short review:
-The trip time of the 3 rivers is not under 2 hours.
-Amtrak is again resorting to Airbrushing in trains into the photos. In the 1999 guide they have a P42 on the Hell Gate, this time they showed a P42 heading up the Vermonter when the Vermonter is an all F40 service (or cab car and the Vermonter Baggage car was not to be seen either)
-No F40's appeared in the vacation guide at all.
-The 3 Rivers was the only service to use Heritage Sleepers, but in the back where accomidations were discussed Heritage Cars were not described.
-It is interesting to note that "heritage" has different meanings for the public and railfans. For the public it is something akin to something quaint that brings back the great values/memories of our past. To a railfan it means old hand-me-down FUBAR equipment.
-What is to become of the Metroliner and NE Direct and things like Keystone/Empire/Clocker services. In this guide things were lumped into ACELA Express, Regional and Commuter, but the Metroliner service still had a little line on the map (NY-DC while ACLEA named trains went from BOS TO DC).
-Everyone pictured on the guide was smiling.
-The NYC subway was featured in the ACELA express section no less. It was a picture of a blurred stbwat train rounding a curve w/ NYc in the backgrounnd. The train is quite blurred (how they got a blur on a NYC subway train on a curve is beyond me), but it looks like a G train. It has a transverse cab, full stainless steel and 2 bands of corrigation on the side. That's the best I can do to identify an NYC subway train.
-There was a pic of an California F59 and Cascades F59
-They artfully cropped out any evidence of the 20 or so intermodal trailers behind and given train.
-One Chicago hub train was pictured with the Bombardier commuter cars.
-No B32-8P Pepsi Cans were shown.
-The Kentucky Cardinal was not included as was the Skyline Connection.
Regarding the shots showing engines, cars, etc., not normally found on those specific routes, they're not airbrushed or cropped. Amtrak runs non-revenue trains with all matching consists (and no express cars) specifically for publicity photos. And apparently, they like showing Genesis engines in their photos.
IMHO, the current style of the travel planner is quite an improvement. In older travel planners, they wouldn't even show real scenery shots. Now at least the scenery mostly matches up with actual Amtrak routes.
Posted by Jersey Mike wrote:
> -One Chicago hub train was pictured with the
> Bombardier commuter cars.
If you're referring to the photo on page 28 of the Travel Planner, the photo shows a train which includes three Horizon Fleet coaches, which are used on several routes out of Chicago (and were a mainstay of California's San Joaquin Route before the California Cars arrived). Horizon carbodies do bear a strong family resemblance to Bombardier (and earlier Pullman-Standard) commuter stock. Even though the interiors have been upgraded from the commuter version with reclining seats, more luggage space, and larger restrooms, I find them a bit spartan, probably Amtrak's least satisfactory equipment order from the standpoint of passenger accommodations.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
That's why I was wondering why they included them in their flashy travel planner.
This weekend will be the time that all of us ex-New Yorkers will feel some envy at not being there. I would love to ride the #7 out to Shea with some choice tickets in my possession so I could scream my approval to my beloved Mets. I know some of you will be riding the rails out there and I will be with you in spirit. I'll be parked in front of my TV set rooting the Blue and Orange on. Let's hope we end the series in New York and can get ready for the World Series. A and the thought of a Subway Series in a week? WOW!!!!!!! Enjoy New Yorkers. This is your time.
I have choice tickets in my possesion :) Game 4!
-Hank
PLEASE STOP THESE OFF TOPIC POSTS--THANK YOU VERY MUCH
Hey Andee: GET A LIFE!!!!!!!! Trains were mentioned in my piece, and we don't need any thought police like you gumming up the works. I thought I was in your kill-file. Put me there. I'm tired of hearing your worn out, mundane, and ridiculously inane comments. It is people like you that cause problems on this post because you seem to find fault with just about everything. Take a tranquilizer.
>>> I'm tired of hearing your worn out, mundane, and ridiculously inane comments <<<
Hey Fred;
You should take a look at what some SubTalker posted just a couple of hours before your post:
"No one with even a modicum of intelligence would disagree with the premise that we should all cooperate to keep flamage down to the vanishing point." [Post #159847]
Tom
And if you read the whole piece Old Tom I made reference to those who cause the trouble by criticizing what others write about a subject and act like thought police. I will not allow anyone to interfere with my right of free speech. I will say what I have to say, period. I will not retaliate unless someone persosnally attacks me. Subwaysurf should mind his own business if Hank, Steve and I want to talk about the #7 train and the Mets. If he doesn't want to read it, he can skip it=======but he should refrain from making nasty comments on it.
Fred, I just read old tom's post #159982. Nothing, absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with trains. Plenty about sailing vessels and plenty about steam ships but not a flipping reference to trains. Seems that the thought police need policing.
I'm willing to cut them some slack on that, and they should return that courtesy to me. Old Tom usually isn't in that "thought police" camp but if he had read the whole piece he would have been clear as to where I was coming from. Thanks for your support Train Dude.
>>> And if you read the whole piece Old Tom I made reference to those who cause the trouble by criticizing what others write about a subject and act like thought police <<<
Fred;
I did go back and read the whole piece, and found that it contained this sentence:
"A person has the right to express his thoughts without being held to ridicule or insult."
When Andee expressed his thoughts by posting:
"PLEASE STOP THESE OFF TOPIC POSTS--THANK YOU VERY MUCH "
(which is hardly a "nasty comment") you responded by quite reasonably pointing out that your post did contain a reference to trains. Then you added gratuitous ridicule and insult with:
"I'm tired of hearing your worn out, mundane, and ridiculously inane comments."
That sort of comment invites a reply in kind and deterioration into mutual flamage. That is exactly what we should all be trying to avoid.
Tom
Old Tom: If you follow what that gentlemen has written in the past, he seems to revel in criticizing others and I'm tired of it. He doesn't have to read it if he doesn't want to, but you do have a point. My last comment was a residue of his jumping all over me when I made some reference to a bad area of the Bronx I saw last summer. BTW, since you are a senior citizen like me, I will take your words to heart. I'll be 60 on October 27? Are you there yet?
>>> I'll be 60 on October 27? Are you there yet? <<<
Yes. (but but still 13 days short of October 27th). :-)
Tom
Off topic post - OLD TOM. Get with the program.
My last comment was a residue of his jumping all over me when I made some reference to a bad area of the Bronx I saw last summer.
Just as you have a right to say whatever you want, whenever you want and however you want, unless is poses a threat to others, he has the right to do the exact same thing. If you post about a bad area of the Bronx and he debunks your statement, your claim of "thought police" does nothing more than make you look like someone who will ignore all other advice and continue with your stubborn line. You have every right to do that too.
While I disagreed with you about the Bronx and was on Subwaysurf's side in that battle, I still believe that you have the right to say whatever you want about it.
"I despise what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
You are right. Those people who have been posting messages totally unrelated to transit should stop poeting them. They are a waste of time and space. BTW I did get some interesting response about the articulated subway cars.
BMTJeff
Off-topic and harassing posts will be removed at the discretion of the management.
See that line? It's from the top of the index. When you can answer "yes" to the following question, you request what you'd like. Otherwise, sitdown and shutup, Marc.
-Hank.
last time i checked shea stadium is right next to my favorie subway line the lovely beautiful flushing # 7 line which i an absolute joy to shoot on video!! cant wait until october 27 2000 day & night shooting in split shifts rush hour services 5 hour formats each 10 hours total!!!
now thats on topic!!!..
Salaam: Too bad you couldn't wait until October 27. That's my birthday and I'll hit the big Six O that day. I'd love to have some pictures of the N and 7 trains taken on that day.
THE 7 train is my pic on the october 27 2000 !!! maybe i can shoot the N saturday ?? friday the 27th I am scheduled to shoot hte # 7 !
especially the express services both directions in 5 hour shifts each
E mail me if this agrees with you !!!!!
Salaam: Sounds great to me. Go for it and let me know when you have the pictures.
I will be shooting video & still pictures all that day & night geting the last of the redbirds the # 7 will be on friday your birthday mine is on the 3rd of november . It is not going to be easy shooting video & still digital shots at the same time as well friday your birthday will be my last day shooting of the redbirds. Saturday I have to find where to go to shoot video on lines that do not use express tracks on weekday rush hour service maybe the L,E or something like that.as soon as i get back i will post them & e mail yoiu to let you know
I will be shooting video & still pictures all that day & night geting the last of the redbirds the # 7 will be on friday your birthday mine is on the 3rd of november . It is not going to be easy shooting video & still digital shots at the same time as well friday your birthday will be my last day shooting of the redbirds. Saturday I have to find where to go to shoot video on lines that do not use express tracks on weekday rush hour service maybe the L,E or something like that.as soon as i get back i will post them & e mail you to let you know.
THE 7 train is my pic on the october 27 2000 !!! maybe i can shoot the N saturday ?? friday the 27th I am scheduled to shoot the # 7 !
especially the express services both directions in 5 hour shifts each
E mail me if this agrees with you !!!!!
10/13/2000
Salaam,
Maybe you can bring a Hostess Twinkie, put a birthday candle on it. October 27th is The Interborough's birthday!
Bill "Newkirk"
Today's Hostess Twinkie is a chemical concoction. The IRT deserves better. Let's not forget the "Twinkie defense"; that consuming same caused that deranged ex-cop to shoot and kill San Francisco Supervisor Harvey Milk.
On a more positive note, what is in store for October 27, 2004?
what is in store for October 27, 2004?
Sea Beach Fred turns 64.
Did you have to remind me of that, you young wippersnapper? Maybe by then I will come to New York and we will all have a party. I believe I have a few pals on this web. But 64? My God, a few years ago that seemed like a long way away.
Fred, are you really going to be 64? I'm 57 and it seems like a lot of the posters on Sub-Talk (or at least many of them) are High school
kids or in their 20's. Boy, does that make me feel old!
Chuck Greene
Chuck:
Fred's going to turn 60 on Oct 27.
Bob
Thanks Bob:
60 is so much better than 64. Of course, at 60 do you do a Jack Benny
and say you are always 59?
Chuck Greene
"60 is so much better than 64."
Chuck, you sure do know how to make a guy feel old!
Just kidding, of course. You are only as old as you feel or "look".
I get a lot of people that say "You don't look 57, you look more like 47 or 45". That makes me feel great despite all the aches and pains
I have. Thanks for the "cookie" information.
Chuck Greene
10/15/2000
[Of course, at 60 do you do a Jack Benny
and say you are always 59?]
I believe Jack Benny always said he was 39 !
Bill "Newkirk"
I know Jack was always 39, but I'm just using this as an example.
It's like every 10th age could say I'm only x9! BTW , your calenders
are superb!
Chuck Greene
Hopefully some sort of celebration complete with trips around City Hall loop for the public. Regardless of what they end up doing, I've already marked my calendar for Wednesday, October 27, 2004. I will be in the city no matter what.
10/14/2000
[Today's Hostess Twinkie is a chemical concoction. The IRT deserves better.]
Well, the Twinkie is shaped like a subway car. The Devil Dog looks like a flatened one. The Tastycake looks like a coffin !
Bill "Newkirk"
Today's Hostess Twinkie is a chemical concoction. The IRT deserves better. Let's not forget the "Twinkie defense"; that consuming same caused that deranged ex-cop to shoot and kill San Francisco Supervisor Harvey Milk.
It's been said that a man in Los Angeles spent 14 years living on a diet consisting solely of hard-boiled eggs, Scotch whiskey, and Twinkies, yet was perfectly healthy.
It's been said that a man in Los Angeles spent 14 years living on a diet consisting solely of hard-boiled eggs, Scotch whiskey, and Twinkies, yet was perfectly healthy.
He probably got the rest of his nutrients from air pollution.
Any chance he is our problem poster from the Los Angeles basin?
you must be speaking about yourself first as your own problem poster!
sorry but the last time i checked hostess twinkies are made with pork by products ( i do not eat & or use pork products ) maybe i could use a tastycake product from philly which does have the kosher symbol on it!
( smile )
10/14/2000
[sorry but the last time i checked hostess twinkies are made with pork by products ]
WHAT??
Pigs, can you verify this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe later
If yes, then Hostess goes on the BOARshevik official swinocide wanted list.
now thats funny !!
Salaam: And what's more, they are loaded with lard, palm oil and beef fat. Absolutely bad for you. I can't even look at one without feeling ill.
Plus they have a shelf life which approaches the service life of the Gibbs Hi-Vs.
Hey, Hank, are you going to try to get World Series tickets if the Mets make it? I will be.
I'm starting to get the itch to come to New York, spend a lot of money and attend a Mets game should they get into the World Series. But Steve, watch yourself. The thought police are back in force trying to tell us what we can talk about.
There's only one way I'll be going to Shea - on the 7. Hello, Redbirds, Let's go Mets.
I will be trying my damnedest. It's a once-in-a-life kind of thing. You have to go at least once. And since it's the Mets, it may be another 12 years...
-Hank
Yeah, especially if the Braves get past Round One in the playoffs next year. The Cardinals did the Mets a huge favor.
Sorry, if one team beats a better team, and then your team beats that team, it's as if you beat the better team in the first place.
-Hank
I think it's more of a psychological thing with the Braves. You put it well, though.
I had a feeling I was going to hear that from you. Well I do envy you a bit, but have a blast and root the Mets home. BTW, do you take the train to the game? I loved riding the train to games when I was a kid and when I vacationed in New York. Boston and Chicago. There seems to be so much more spirit doing it that way.
I used to, but since I've been attending weekday games after work, I drive. I may take the train Sunday night though, if I find a place to park far enough away. They doubled the parking rate for the playoffs. I'll be trolling Bayside for places to live on Sunday before the game...
-Hank
* Question on saturday the 29th of october 2000 which subway line that does not use express tracks monday thru friday would you shoot on saturday?? ( excluding the redbirds ) maybe the L train line??
maybe the railfan window equipped 3 line that used to be served by the R-22 ?? On saturday where do i go to tape ?? thank you.. salaamallah
The 29th of October is a SUNDAY
ok same question saturday october 28 2000 i just finished shooting all of my REDBIRDS & its saturday etc.. Which lines would you shoot video since saturday is not a regular work week day etc if you catch my drift.
& That do not use ""express tracks"" during the week & they do run on saturday..??
( hope this clears up my question ) thank you,. salaamallah
Has anyone here had any experience with the Lionel Railscope? I'd like to videotape the innaugural run on my O gauge layout (not from the railfan window of my MTH R-42). I have the opportunity to pick up a railscope unit. What were its limitations? What problems can I expect?
Well, limitation number one is that it's black and white, not color. If you have perfectly clean track, perfectly clean wheels, tight track joints, and heavy-duty electrical connections (14 gauge wire soldered to the rail, not track clips), you'll get a relatively decent picture. Anything less and you'll have problems. I don't own one myself but we sold quite a few at the Hobby Shop in Raleigh, North Carolina back in the early '90s and, except for the first batch, didn't have too many complaints. (And I've seen several run nicely when the O scale club had their annual show.) Unfortunately, that first production run was so bad that it soured a lot of people on the concept - even Kato, who had been working on a color version that would fit in an N scale E unit, stopped work on it, figuring that people would still be afraid to buy one simply because of Lionel's early problems.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey! I'm back! I got a new computer 2 days ago. A virus destroyed my motherboard on my old computer. Well, woke up today... got onto a Q Train at Brighton Beach and went to school at DeKalb Avenue. When I got out of school, some dufus threw a lit match into the trash can on the platform. The trash and can lit up into flames. An R68 D Train comes in. There was little smoke so the T/O didn't notice. I then told the T/O that there was a fire in the can. He radioed DeKalb Control and in a few minutes a official in an orange vest came down to the platform. He was looking for a fire on the tracks and the like. Then everyone pointed to the can. He put it out wih some yellow powder. Not all went into the can and alot went into the air. That stuff started to swirl around. The official radios DeKalb Control and tells them that the fire is out. A few minutes later, a few firefighters came down and sprayed some water into the can and then took it out. The lay the can on it's side and sprayed it inside out. The can had a huge hole at the bottom. Then they leave. I get on a R40 Q Train. There was a pile of vomit on the 3 car from the southbound motor. I stayed on the car. Later at Kings Highway, some idiot was getting off the train and in order to say bye to his friend, he decides to punch the window under the destination sign. The glass then shatters. The train the heads into Brighton Beach and I get off. How was your day?
running on...
or
Welcome back, you were missed
Peace,
ANDEE
10/13/2000
[A virus destroyed my motherboard on my old computer]
Does your new computer have anti virus, like Norton.
Bill "Newkirk"
My old computer had McAfee VirusScan 5.13 (the newest version). My new computer has Norton AntiVirus 2000 and I loaded McAfee VirusScan 5.13. I have them both running now. Yes, my Pentium III 733 can handle it.
running on...
or
10/14/2000
[My old computer had McAfee VirusScan 5.13 (the newest version). My new computer has Norton AntiVirus 2000 and I loaded McAfee VirusScan 5.13. I have them both running now. Yes, my Pentium III 733 can handle it. ]
You mean with McAfee virus scan your old computer's motherboard got fdestroyed by a virus? That's scary.
Bill "Newkirk"
It was his BIOS, that's more specific.
He probably didn't update the DAT files, which contain virus information.
Considering all the stuff I download, I'm surprised I never had a virus and I don't have AV software either.
Although in my computer it would make more sense to reprogram the BIOS or buy a new MB instead of getting a whole new computer (Self assembled Pentium III-500 replaced a Pentium-90 last year).
I didn't have it running. My Pentium MMX 200 couldn't handle it. It always locked up. I update my DAT files on a weekly basis. I check daily just in case something shows up.
running on...
or
NAV2k and McAfee VS simultaneously may, in EXTREME CASES, cause a problem for your HDD. It's also highly unlikely that a virus can destroy a motherboard (we have a grand total of 3 on record, out of 13,000+).
You should use only one scanner, and that should be McAfee VirusScan. Of course, I'm biased, since I work here.
-Hank:)
A virus could infect a BIOS, especially if that BIOS is a flash EPROM.
There are goofballs out there writing viruses that do just about anything to a PC.
I got soured on McAfee when the first Word macro viruses showed up in 1996. Norton Antivirus users were protected within a month of the first outbreak. McAfee customers went 3 months without any protection, as in those days Norton updated their files every month, while McAfee updated quarterly. Nowdays Norton updates Weekly, and every week's file is 250 bytes bigger than the previous week's. I think Network Associates now is weekly, which would make sense.
That's nothing. Ever have a guy sitting next to you drop dead? It happened to me in 11/86, on an R42 D train at 167th St. I thought he was just sleeping until he fell foward onto the floor and didn't wake up.
Did the TA refund his fare to his estate? It seems that dropping a token into a turnstile implies a contract to be transported to any point that the subway serves. It reminds me of an incident in the Main Post Office in Chicago, when a mail sorter dropped dead on the job, a supervisor screamed: "Clock that man out!"
>>> Did the TA refund his fare to his estate? It seems that dropping a token into a turnstile implies a contract to be transported to any point that the subway serves <<<
No need for a refund. They transported him as far as he wanted to go (to the end of his line).
Tom
>>> A virus destroyed my motherboard on my old computer <<<
What type of virus attacks hardware?
Tom
Seriously, a virus can only attack software. I assume that R68 suffered an attack to his operating system software, rendering the computer useless, unless the OS could be reinstalled.
But then, why would he get a new computer?
Unless he doesn't know he could have saved up to $1000 by having the appropriate equipment replaced at a computer shop.
But then again, it could have been a warranty replacement.
Viruses can attack *Firmware*, that is to say, the deep foundation OS instructions in ROM if that ROM is a Flash Eprom. Flash memory is fairly common now because it allows clean/non-destructive in-situ upgrades to computers. However this does leave them open to attack and , believe me, there are people out there who have taken advantage of this.
The virus got into my CMOS and deleted my BIOS off it's chip. Without the BIOS, the computer can't start. I had a copy of the BIOS on a floppy but the computer didn't know what to do with it without a BIOS. I could have bought it to a Gateway Country (I had a Gateway) and they could have put the BIOS back in. But, with labor costs and the like, I thought of replacing the motherboard itself. Then I thought about why I should be trying to replace a 200 MHZ computer when it's so far behind. I then got on the phone with Gateway and purchased another Gateway. A Pentium 3 733 MHZ system. I didn't need a new monitor so I didn't buy one. It averaged out to $1000.00. My warranty on my old computer expired.
running on...
or
I'll bet your new computer is as fast as an R-10.:-)
Even faster! R68A speed!
running on...
or
LOL
Not a weird day at all. Sounds like a typical day when school gets out. It is Friday. And add to it Friday the 13th and a full moon tonite.....that yellow powder was from a fire extinguisher. The powder tends to shoot up because of the heavy pressure, but it did put out the fire....too bad that guy who punched the glass didn't bust open his hand! Then again if he did the TA would have probably taken the c/r out of service because one of the crew members has to hang if an injury is caused by the train.
Well, I checked my EZPass account today, and disocvered my balance was $x.16 How the hell is it 16c? Well, I called them up. Seems that the toll at the Atlantic City plaza on the AC Expressway is 33c. I went through it twice, on August 20. The toll finally posted to my account YESTERDAY! It seems that it takes 5-10 days, minimum, for EZPass transaction on the NJ toll highways to go through to a NY account. DRPA (Ben Franklin Bridge) came through faster.
-Hank
we get a discount on some toll roads with ez-pass. mine tolls are posted the same day.
All my NY State tolls post withing 24 hours, anything in NJ takes a week.
-Hank
What was this subway derailment earlier this year I heard about in a recent post?
It might either have been the one on the Lexington Av IRT or the one on the B train. A number 5 train derailed earlier this year during rush hour, and a B train did the smae earlier this year at DeKalb Av in Brooklyn.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
Iwas just courious if personel from DCE are permited to operate subway trains on the road if the situation arose? Example a train went down while in service could somesone from DCE take the train back to the yard, or is this strickly a job for the T/Os?
No, only TOs and TSSs can move trains.
A Railpace Hot News item posted Thursday states that SEPTA is considering rehabbing 18 PCC cars, including A.C. and wheelchair lifts, for use on Route 15 (Girard Ave).
As I posted before, if the rebuild is going to add a low-floor , lift-equipped center door assembly, then serious reconfiguration of the underfloor equipment will be necessary.
$1M per car? I cannot imagine Woodland Shop having the necessary know-how to do the job. I suspect that one car might be done as a test bed, which, if the old Courtland modified PCC's are any example will be a car that will never see revenue service again.
Pulling out all the old PCC control equipment and replacing it with solid-state something may be an option, but then the price tag per car might exceed $1M each. Given SEPTA's track record, 18 totally rehabbed PCC's with lifts and A/C is a very chancy happening.
Ding ding!
I knew this story sounded familiar. You posted it last week and it started a long thread about modifying the cars.
01/14/2000
Re: SEPTA PCC rehab.
If this goes through ,I guess repainting will happen.I hope the current SEPTA paint scheme won't be adopted. I can't fathom a white PCC with SEPTA striping above the standee windows, yikes !
Bill "Newkirk"
If you remember the "Gulf Oil" era, that that red-to-blue stripe would be placed where the blue stripe would be in the "Gulf Oil" scheme; under the standee windows. Still, I agree with you right there Bill with the current scheme. IMO, the stripe is at the wrong place on the buses, it should be BELOW the windows instead of above them, otherwise, I think the stripe is cool.
10/14/2000
[I think the stripe is cool.]
I think the new SEPTA stripe is cool, especially on the commuter rail cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
I did say it was cool. I only said it was in the wrong spot. Having the stripe under the windows instead of above it would break up the monotony of the white paint. If SEPTA ordered Flxible Metros a few years back (and I said IF), then the new scheme either would not work or would have to be modified since the edge of the roof is indented.
I for one still don't like the stripe above the windows (I much preferred the stripe below). It doesn't look right on either group of K cars (single or double ended) judging by the ones I've seen. I've heard the motivation for this was to have larger areas for ad panels, some of which now come up to the bottom edges of windows (like we really need that or those full-wraps!). Knowing SEPTA, I can fully believe this. The result is that buses (and trolleys) with no ads look strange and the white area gets dirty very quickly, so the vehicles look grungy.
WMATA's bus scheme is one I like, with the double stripes which cross near the front. This shows some imagination. The only thing close to imagination with the SEPTA scheme is the way the blue fades into the red and vice versa. This effect kind of gets lost since the stripe is so high above eye level.
The commuter car stripe is very nice, but it probably wouldn't be as effective on buses and cars due to the thin window posts. Maybe a blue stripe above the windows and a red one below (hey, now we're onto something!).
The real dopey thing, in my opinion, was the use of the black window area on the Ikarus buses. These were to be delivered without this, and I saw a photo of one without it, which looked great. The net effect is a throwback to 70's/80's looks. SEPTA paid an additional $600 per bus to have this done after manufacture and before delivery. It seems to be money poorly spent.
Whether the above-window stripe would work on Flx Metros is debatable. The new 30' El Dorados will have part of this stripe on the curve toward the roofline for similar reasons. From the one I've seen, the effect is pretty much lost for those at street level.
septa vehicles are sometimes grungy anyway. whats new? but quit the lamentations. atleast passengers get something nice to ride to their destinations.
'Something nice' is in the eye of the beholder. If SEPTA ever learns how to clean vehicles and enforce the no eating/drinking rule, I'll start agreeing with this.
You know, SEPTA buses weren't always this bad. It's just that they let the old Neoplans turn to crap and are just getting new buses. Did you ever ride one of them with those awful windows that you can barely see out of? Really shameful, I would've thought better of SEPTA. But the new SEPTA vehicles are pretty nice, though.
I think the Ikarus Buses look great with the black line accross the windows. I mean, it would really look empty without it, especially with the new sheme. Also, I think that the stripe over the window actually works best with the Ikarus buses, since the is suc a large area over the windows.
Hey, dont dis the stripe. I thinks it's unique. The only think I don't like is that the bottom half of the bus is way to blank and empty. Besides, I think it's easier to put the stripe above the windows rather than under them. Then you don't have to worry about the doors and stuff.
hacking up a PCC to install lifts is moronic. The far cheaper AND more reliable method is poured concrete ramps and a deployable "bridge" such as SF uses for the Market St line. And I speak as step parent to a wheelchair user.
>>> The far cheaper AND more reliable method is poured concrete ramps and a deployable "bridge" such as SF uses for the Market St line <<<
This method is cheaper, but has limitations. It requires a passenger loading island in the street, which may not be practical in narrower streets, and it traps the chair bound passenger on the streetcar should it become necessary due to traffic blockage to exit away from the fixed location of the ramps.
Tom
Which is why it might be a problem for PCCs on Girard Avenue. Girard is a wide avenue over by the Zoo, but in West Philly, it is much narrower and wheelchair lifts would present a problem there.
as to trapped on the car--no different from any other emergency situation on many systems--when you are not at a statioin all bets are off. narrow streets are a problem--but Philluy will have to confront this design issue system wide. IIRC the Kawasaki's are not accessible. Some day they may be "bumped to other routes as newer cars are acquired--maybe low floor lrv's for the subway surface lines?
The K's are not accessible. The original idea for Girard Ave was to get some low-floor LRV's for Route 13 which would free up K's for Route 15. No matter how you slice it, the K's would be tough to make accessible, even if platforms could be installed in Girard Ave (and the street width in many areas does not permit loading islands).
The new loading islands to be built, where they will fit, will have curb ramps which allow full access, strangely enough, although the thought behind this was to plan for low-floor car operation some day. Whether the rehabbed PCC's will do this remains a question.
I'm not psychic, but there's an almost certain bet that NOTHING will happen. I lay odds that the proposed PCC rehab is just a ploy to show the City that "SEPTA is Serious about Streetcars".
The low-floor articulated car proposal was two years ago. As we know, nothing happened.
Two years from now, the PCC rehab proposal will be "nothing happened".
I would not be surprised to see the wires come down over Girard, Germantown and Erie Avenues.
Unfortunately I agree with you. I couldn't have said it better myself. I really dislike coming down on my home city's transit agency but SEPTA has demonstrated time and again an unwillingness to be innovative and imaginative, especially where City Transit is concerned. The entire Girard Ave fiasco is only there to address a political concern (a so-called transit commitment to North Phila) and there will be, no doubt, too much money spent on a glorified bus line which will attract no new riders (since it doesn't go anyplace new and won't be any faster than the bus service currently serving the line).
I am not cynical by nature but the whole 'commitment' to renewed streetcar service that SEPTA keeps promising just isn't there. I agree that, in time, the wires will disappear from 15, 23 and 56 (even though there is great possibility for trackless on at least 2 of these (not 23) which would utilize infrastructure and existing fleet - as well, an extension of trackless 75 over the outer part of former rail 53 would be in the same vein). SEPTA doesn't have the 'umph' to do it and the funding isn't there. The PCC rehab is, unfortunately, probably just another ruse.
And, the TC fleet is fast approaching the replacement age. We are talking about vehicles that are late 1970's. SEPTA will dieselize the remaining TC lines in a heartbeat, not re-equip them with new ETB's.
Surprisingly SEPTA has included the purchase of 60-70 new tracklesses in its capital budget. Just when everyone around here thought that they were on the way out... Of course, 40-50 of the AMG's are still sitting in dead storage at several places around the system, many of them racking up very little mileage since they were acquired over 20 years ago.
I've always believed that SEPTA has completed (and in fact, completing) what NCL didn't do: The total dieselization of all surface transit on the PTC/PRL system.
Capital Budget aside, I do not believe SEPTA has the internal vision to use any non-diesel transit on the surface routes.
Example: When the Kawasaki's were purchased in 1980-81, why wasn't the order big enough to allow more cars for the North Philly lines?
Why are 40-50 AMG TC's stored when diesels are being used on many of the TC lines?
The NCL mindset is alive and well at 1234 Market Street.
They only are bringing back the 15, which was converted into a bus route a while ago. Also, they are suposedly getting new trolleys for the subway surface lines, which is why they bought those in the first place. I think they are converting the TC routes into bus routes. I mean, those lines are rarely used. I think that the only trolley routes that will be left are the subway surface lines and the 15. I think there is a public meeting about whether to change route 23 into a deisel bus route permanentaly.
You have fallen for the SEPTA bait, hook, line and sinker. The PCC rehab is a ploy for the City, so SEPTA can say "See, we're serious about streetcars."
Just like the 13 articulated car bid spec that NOBODY bid for. SEPTA knew that was going to happen, that's why it was written that way.
SEPTA is getting rid of anything non-Diesel surface that's not Subway-Surface.
As much as I hate to say it, you are right. I mean, how many years ago were the 15, 23, and 56 converted into bus routes? Also, the trolleys are the oldest rail vehicles on the SEPTA rail fleet, did you notice that? they aren't really doing much for the trollies. Also, about the 75 being extended at all? I don't think so. (also notice how the trolley buses are ancient). What I think is that they should make trackless trolley routes in Center City so that more people (including me) can ride them.
Dan,
Sadly it's already happened. On Erie Avenue near the el, the wires have been pulled down (though the cross wires are still there).
Only a matter of time before it's all gone.
The Yankees just beat the mariners again, this time 8-2. What's more, the mariners look completely lifeless. (Okay - here comes the on-topic part) The prospect of a subway series is looking more and more likely tonight.
And you what Train Dude? That's fine. It might be off topic but only on a technicality. You ought to be out here in California. They are all talking about the possibillity of a Subway Series, the first in 44 years and they're totally enthused about it. We have been talking it up at lunch here for at least two weeks. Imagine the pride New Yorkers would have and the enthusiam that would be engendered there if such a series happens. The whole country would be electrified. And the subway trains #4 and #7 would be humming with raucous fans. I can't see how any New Yorker, past or present, can't get pumped up by that.
I'm watching the Yankee game behind the web browser (the TV reception is superimposed on the web browser) and they're 2 innings away from being up a 3-1.
And I don't think the Cards are going to win, tonight was only preventing a rare 3-0 deficit.
We're closer than we've ever been now! and bring on the netcops!
Hang the netcops, The Series is coming to NYC and if the netcops don't like it, too $#@!#$@ bad!!!!
John: Glad to see we're all coming together on this. I felt for a while that I was fighting a rear guard action. Those net cops ought to get a life.
The Mets are ahead 8-6 in the bottom of the seventh inning as I write this note, and the Yankees are going back to the Bronx after losing today. You may be right, but I would like my Mets to get an insurance run or two. The Cards are a very dangerous team. As far as being off topic, I won't say anything if you won't.
Well, the Mets are up 3-1 in games and can wrap it up tonight. It would be very fitting if they were to do so; Oct. 16 marks 31 years since the Mets shocked the baseball world by taking the 1969 World Series from the Orioles. I remember it as though it were yesterday.
I'd also like to send along a warm birthday greeting to Mister R-10 himself, William Padron. Hope he's reading this.
The Rocky Mountain News reported that a Subway Series would generate a good chunk of revenue for the city.
As much as I hate the Yankees, I'm getting pumped up for a Subway Series, even though I'm three thousand miles away. Whether they like us ex-New Yorkers, New Yorkers, and new New Yorkers, all will attest to the fact that this would be great for baseball and the #'s 7 and 4 trains. Did you hear the noise at Shea last night? It burst right through my living room. Can you imagine seven nights of that? It will be a dandy if it all comes off.
Well, Game 5 has been preserved for posterity on videocassette. Now it's time to stock up on more blank tapes for the Series. Too bad I didn't tape game 3 of the Divisional Series, the one which ended with Agbayani's 13th-inning home run. I'm sure there will be a highlights video coming out.
A stone's throw away from the 207th Street
Uptown Platform on the 1/9, we spot a sign
reading:
"WE BUY SCRAP METAL"
.
.
....are you listening MTA?
Finally! An alternative to Redbirds Titanica
...and a nifty place to rid oneself of
excess r142s!!
Once a Redbird Fan, ALWAYS a Redbird Fan.
see you this last week of october !!
I am very curious on what the passenger usage is like on the Brooklyn end of the N line. At times in the mornings while on the #7 I would see an N train across the platform at the Queensboro Plaza station. The N train leaves the station PACKED with those who couldn't make it in still in the station (it's funny to see how those people tried to force themselves in when there was absolutely no more space). What is it like on the Brooklyn end? Can't the MTA increase the traffic on the N to provide more service if the ridership in Brooklyn is just as high, or does the MTA doesn't have enough cars at the moment?
The latest stats I have are from 1997:
Sea Beach Line
Station/Annual Registrations
86th Street/276,629
Avenue U/332,043
Kings Highway/599,001
Bay Parkway/820,804
20th Avenue/568,235
18th Avenue/648,661
Fort Hamilton Parkway/814,629
8th Avenue/1,050,423
Total/5,110,425
(62nd Street and Stillwell Avenue not counted because they are served by more than one line)
Astoria Line
Station/Annual Registrations
Ditmars Boulevard/3,810,177
Astoria Boulevard/2,392,670
30th Avenue/3,238,855
Broadway/2,997,271
36th Avenue/1,658,475
Total/14,097,448
(Queensborough Plaza not counted because it is served by more than one line)
As seen above, the Astoria segment of the N train is far busier than the Sea Beach segment.
As to whether more rush hour service could be provided, there is a little capacity in the 60th Street Tunnel for additional N and/or R trains, but the southern terminals in Manhattan (Canal Street/City Hall and Whitehall Street) don't have much (if any) additional capacity, and there is very little (if any) room in the Montague Street Tunnel to send additional trains to Brooklyn since M trains also use it. Even if capacity is available, however, there aren't enough cars available to provide the service.
After the R-143s come in (by 2002), and after the Manhattan Bridge is back to full capacity (2004?), there should be adequate capacity to and within Brooklyn to allow for additional rush hour Astoria service.
David
If the N was extended to LaGuardia, the Astoria Line would get more trains. As for the Sea Beach, people avoid it because it is so slow, preferring express buses, the B, or the F. Indeed, people with jobs in Manhattan avoid residing in neighborhoods served by the Sea Beach, because the commute is so long. If the Manny B was fully open and the commute to Midtown was 10-12 minutes faster each way (and more comfortable), Sea Beach ridership would increase. If the Manny B were to be lost completely, that part of Brooklyn would be doomed.
Well Larry baby, use your influence and get that damned southern side of the Manny B open so my Sea Beach can get a second wind. See what you can do.
Why would people prefer the Culver over the Sea Beach? The F in Brooklyn is so much slower and was dubbed by one poster on this board as "the ride of a thousand stops." I can see taking the B even though there are more stops on the West End than on the Sea Beach if travelling from Coney Island, because the B uses the Manhattan Bridge while the poor N is regulated to the Montague Tunnel with the R and M and the Broadway local tracks. But the F? Local all the way through Brooklyn and Manhattan? Maybe not having to share its tracks with any other train except the G from Smith & 9th to Bergen might help make it a little faster than the N to Midtown.
The 'F' may make many stops but it doesn't go through DeKalb and does not share it's trackage with any other line in Brooklyn. It may be slow but it is reliable.
Reliable? Didn't Larry Littlefield complain about all those door problems?
David, your facts I will accept as true, even thought you just busted by bubble. Well, that's showbiz
i know for the sea beach line, it takes about 15 minutes in the morning rush for a train to come (forget about weekends at least 20). if you dont believe me, if i miss the train that gets to my stop at 7:25 the next one comes at 7:40 (15 minutes in the AM rush to manhattan is pretty damm bad). this is not a one time occurence, its every day.
If there are enough cars, they should run short, rush hour service from Astoria to 34th St/Herald Sq. This should alleviate the crowding a bit.
However, with the bridge flip upcoming, Astoria passangers will see their rush hour service double.
Thanks David for the figures.
Hey thanks for letting me know there are a whole host of Sea Beach aficianados out there. It just goes to show you what I've been saying all along. My Sea Beach is some train. Ok, ok, I'm waiting for all the smart aleck comebacks out there.
At 11:PM Friday at Chambers (2,3) heading North. The automated annoucements were not on, digital signs read NOT IN SERVICE.
That was a School car class doing practice stops. The T/O class is using a 5 car train running along the No.2&5 routes.
I was told by a T/O who was in class last week that the School route was like this.
From E 180 St down the Lex Ave Express tracks to Bowling Green then the go in the Loop and go Uptown Via the Westside back to E 180 St.
This is better then my training. My route was just running the train on M TK on the White Plains Road line from Bronx Park East to Gun Hill Rd.
Ofcause the Daily 2 runs I had with the R142A made up for that.
Could they have been using 7251-55 as well? It came out one day.
-Stef
I saw 7221-7225 just north of East 180th heading south. Its front LEDs displayed a circled 2 and the side signs read "2 - 7 Avenue Express" so I thought they were part of a full revenue train. But I guess they were making simulated stops.
At about 1:AM today I saw 0R719 and 1R719 coupled to a pair of R-32s as they collected at Queens Plaza. Why is this? I have seen this several times in the morning when they run to Jamaica Yard, but this is the first time I've seen it during collection. Every time I see this, the R-32s are the rear 2 cars, wether they're heading east or west.
0R719 & 1R719 are each operating railcars. In order to be permitted out on the main line, they both need operating propulsion systems and controls. In the event that during pre-service inspection, a problem is detected, that can't be repaired before the train isdue to leave the yard, it's necessary to add cars to compensate for the defect. Those cars are referred to as 'horses'.
Slight exaggeration here, maybe, but can anyone explain why NYC subway operators have to lean out of their cabs and punch a button anytime they meet facing turnouts/route divergences?
OK, so LRV operators worldwide select their own routes but surely, on a 24-7 urban heavy rail system, the signalling/dispatching staff should not need to be told twice what's on the panel in front of them?
There is no such staff, at least not one of the scale you believe. The majority of train routings are automatic, and depend upon the operator to hit the button so the equipment sets the proper route. Towermen are a dying breed.
-Hank
The majority of train routings are automatic, and depend upon the operator to hit the button so the equipment sets the proper route. Towermen are a dying breed.
How are merges handled? Are they also "automatic"?
Yes, there are a number of places where this function is done
automatically. All home and approach signals are normally at
danger, and then it is a first-come, first-serve selection when
a train occupies a distant approach track circuit, or pushes
the route request button.
Is there a list of which merges are still handled by tower and which are automatic (along with the activation locations)?
I know of one, Union Turnpike (E,F). Whoever leaves first gets the line-up. So there is a race because more often than not, both enter at the same time.
Union Turnpike? That's not likely to be automatic as the
interlocking that controls it (Continental) is an old
US&S unit lever plant. Not capabale of automatic operation.
Only the "modern" all-relay NX/UR plants can do this. Unfortunately
I don't have a list of what's currenty in service where. I can
think of one or two ERA members who might have that info.
Well, then its not automatic, but it still is whoever leaves first. I should have known it was manual anyway, who else could control the holding lights?
Completely different thing. The holding lights are a circuit that is as simple as the switch for your bathroom light.
-Hank
Any punched route selection can be changed by a tower/master tower. Happens all the time when DeKalb Tower changes the lineup from the punch at Church Ave (D punches first but Q gets the lineup).
How is/was it decided which towers to put on automatic. Its amazing to me that Bergen St and 53rd St are still manned, but 50th street is on automatic. It seems like automation would be easier to implement at the simpler intersections.
50th street does have a newer board, however. So maybe thats why. Even though bergen st runs off auxiliary switches only after the fire-so technically its "newer," even though its a hack.
Dave
50 & 6 was redone in the 60s when th 57-6 station was added.
It's an NX plant. The towers on the Rockaway line are also
pushbutton, being installed in the 50s. Basically, anything that
was installed or re-done after WW II is likely to be a pushbutton
all-relay plant of some sort. It has little to do with the
apparent complexity of the interlocking, you just add more relays
according to the script. Take a look at Bernie Greenberg's NXSYS.
So these 'Dispatchers' I read about, what are they doing exactly?
The NYCS does not have "dispatchers" in the Metro-North or freight railraod sence. There are too many trains and too many variables to make driverless signaling possible. Most of the NYCS is signaled by interlocking towers that control a single junction or an entire line. Unlike the Metro-North system the tower ops don't have any idea what that blip on the model board means. The drivers either have to call in or select a route. Furthermore the towers are all spread out and it is almost impossible to know what is being sent to you from another tower. The Jay St. control centre almost functions as a paper dispatcher.
Let's take this further:
1) It wouldn't be too much of a leap into the unknown to graft an LRV-style route selection system (based on onboard beacons) onto the existing circuits, surely?
2) With the system as outlined in 1) above in place, you would have the infrastructure ready for 'Next Train for yy in xx minutes' indicators, as recently discussed on this board. Any insiders care to comment on the cost/complexity etc of this?
It wouldn't be too much of a leap into the unknown to graft an LRV-style route selection system (based on onboard beacons) onto the existing circuits, surely?
Yes it would. Most of the signaling and interlocking is quite old, and NYC subway is very, very complex. The only exception in the 'L' train, which has no merges. MTA is working on CBTC for the 'L.'
With the system as outlined in 1) above in place, you would have the infrastructure ready for 'Next Train for yy in xx minutes' indicators, as recently discussed on this board. Any insiders care to comment on the cost/complexity etc of this?
Even with complete ATO, it would still be a mounumental task. DC finaly did this, but only after about 6 months of trying to get the VMS to display the info. Even now it isn't perfect and still buggy. DC is about a sixth of the size of NYC and it was designed from the start to do things like this. If they could barely do it without cost overruns and many bugs I doubt if NY could do it.
But meanwhile the London Underground not only has next train indicators in almost every station but when it says that a train is arriving in 3 minutes, it ARRIVES in 3 minutes! And yet their system is older than New York's! I guess that's one of the advantages of closing down late at night so that work can be performed.
Guess I'm spoilt here in London. Thing is, to my knowledge, our beacon-based system was grafted-onto the existing infrastructure by virtue of the fact that it works almost independently of it. This leads to the occasional amusing situation where the T/O forgets to change his beacon's destination when he changes ends and , for instance, a Southbound train will show up on the platform indicator with a Northbound destination.
Accuracy of timing is purely a function of how far away the train is, physically, from the target platform. The system does collapse occasionally at peak times, but gracefully so: the train is still on the indicator but is shown without a target time until it moves a significant distance forward.
But on 6th Ave alone you have three different routes running on the same track. The track display only shows a train there not what route it is.
You always hear tower operators/command asking for the trains call letters and operating motor number. Heck remember Pelham 123, that is where they got the name of the movie.
Also without the route selectors you would loose another use for the yellow piece of wood >G< (another topic here).
I thought that pressing a route button lit up a light in a tower telling the Tower Op what train needed what service. BTW the control centres that control an entire line do fit the definition of an interlocking tower if they are located in a trackside structure.
On the "L" in Chicago, towermen are used in a couple places, but for the most part, route diversions are programmed automatically by beacons on the cars themselves. Therefore, the route is usually already set by the time the operator gets to the junction. This is not the case, however, at Tower 12 in the Loop, which was formerly a manned tower, but has now been computerized, and takes forever to program routes for some reason.
Is Tower 12 at the southeast or northwest corner of the loop?
Does anyone know why does the 42nd St Shuttle change cars from diffrent yards if I am not mistaking the shuttle train is now running out of Livonia Yard? Before it was from Westchester Yard? Why did they change Yards for the shuttle? Also I remember that the shuttle also ran out cars from Jerome Yard and 240th St Yard? Please correct me if I am right?
The assignment was taken away from Westchester because their R62A's are now all 5 car linked sets. Contrary to what has been said here by others, all of Livonia (#3line) cars are singles. I didn't see one linked set while at Times Square waiting for the R142 several weeks ago.....The changing of yards for those cars has a lot to do with new cars coming in (the shuttle was R62 at one time because the R62A's weren't in yet) and the 5 car linkage program. It remains to be seen when every rebird is gone what will happen. I would bet that a pool of single R62A's will be set aside with a similar spare factor to the R68 pool for the Franklin shuttle.
There is one link set running on the No.3 Line cars 1896-1900 which was taken from the Pelham Line.
And 1886-90. Why are they there?
-Stef
That is true Stef. When I see these cars, there are linked to another full width car. Example:1900 maybe linked to 1941 as the #5 and 6 cars in the set.
3TM
I don't remember 240 Yard ever having control of the Shuttle But Moshulu did. The reason why they changed it to Westchester was because the No.4 started with the 5 car units first. Then Westchester did the same and Livonia Yard now has it because the No.3 has single cars.
bigedirtmanl has sent me a clipping from an old Railway Age magazine, and asked that I pass it along to the SubTalkers.
Apparently the Transit Commissions of both New York and New Jersey announced a tentative plan back in 1924 that would have the eastside IRT run under the Hudson River and part of Jersey City.
A new Union Station would be constructed at the edge of the Hackensack river meadows where the old Lackawanna and Erie commuter lines intersected. This would relieve the pressure on the Hudson Tubes and the ferry boats, which were being used to their capacity at the time.
It was thought at that time that the high construction costs would be more than offset by the increased utilization of the subway equipment in Manhattan.
Obviously nothing ever became of the plan, but it is interesting to think of how things might be different today if it had!
It kind of surprises me that both the New Jersey and New York transit commissions had the same plan (and the key words there are both NJ and NY) and in 1924 no less. Who knows, it probably would have been a big benefit to the ferries and the Hudson Tubes. If the construction costs would have been more than offset by increased utilization of the subway equipment, why on Earth did nothing come of this plan? Granted, it couldn't really be a New York City subway line if it went to Jersey.
But I'd like to know more about this plan. Can you put this clipping on the web?
Ed tightly clipped the margins so I don't know what issue it's from. The heading is "75 Years Ago In Railway Age" (January 1924). I would suspect that this appeared in the Jan 1999 issue.
I don't have a scanner or know anyone who does. The article is nothing more than a rather long paragraph.
The paragraph starts "Thr Transit Commission of New York City and the North Jersey Rapid Transit Commission have made public a tentative plan...". I think the two groups must have developed the plan in joint sessions.
It would seem that the paragraph was designed to make us want to seek out the Jan 1924 issue of Railway Age to read the whole story.
Remember that the Holland Tunnel was well underway in 1924 - 6 of the original 23 contracts had been started, and the north tunnel was holed through in November, 1924 (the south tunnels met in February, 1925). The Holland Tunnel took a lot of ridership away from the H&M and I suspect the proposed IRT tunnel would have suffered as well.
The early- to mid-20's were a boom time for transit planning - for example, drawings for a Narrows tunnel from Brooklyn to Staten Island were drawn up in 1923-1924, and contract books were printed in 1925 for the purpose of soliciting bids.
In regard to the Narrows tunnel from Brooklyn to Staten Island, where exactly would the tunnel, which I believe I read somewhere was actually started on the Brooklyn side, have been located and what line in Brooklyn would have been used to serve SI? When you look at the current subway map, the obvious route would've been from South Ferry to SI but the map is stylized so I imagine Brooklyn is actually closer to SI than Manhattan.
It is my understanding (which I believe originates in Caro's book about Robert Moses) that the subway tunnel originated almost exactly where the Brooklyn footings for the Verrazano Bridge were placed. The construction of the bridge involved destroying the beginning work that had been done on the subway tunnel on the Brooklyn side. Caro and others believe this was done intentionally. After reading that book, it is easy to believe the destruction was intentional.
No. The tunnel was to begin at Owl's Head Park, they only started building the shaft for the tunnel. OH Park is near Exit 1 of the Belt.
Caro's book also describes a 1950s plan to build two new rapid transit tunnels under the Hudson. This would have been part of a big loop connecting all of the commuter rail lines in New Jersey, crossing the river at about 57th Street, going down Madison Ave., and returning to NJ from lower Manhattan.
I assume that there was no entity at the time to build such a system. The Port Authority took over the Hudson Tubes in 1962, but that agency has had little interest in building new rail transit.
Staten Island: at the corner of South St. and Bay Street
Brooklyn: Shore Road and 68th Street
From "The Narrows Tunnel - Contract No. 4A - Contract Drawings 1 to 58, 1925
The BMT planned to run service from its 4th Ave subway to Staten Island through this 68th Street tunnel.
--Mark
Karl, that's not hard to believe. After all, there was a supposed plan of uniting the H&M and IRT lines back in those days. Isn't that why the dimensions of the PATH and IRT cars are the same?
BMTman
The H&M and IRT chose their car sizes long before 1924. While there's some similarity, IRT cars would get stuck in the H&M tunnels due to some of the curves, and would have some other problems. In many places the H&M roadbed is much closer to the invert, which is why you'll see wooden false 3rd rail in spots - it's to keep the shoes from hitting the tunnel wall. By the way, if you look closely at the NJ end of the NJ-bound tunnel from 33rd St, you'll see it opens up to a much larger brick-lined tunnel. That's a remnant of the original 1874 project, when they planned to run full-size train cars in the tunnel.
Additionally, the IRT and the H&M/PATH trip stops are on opposite sides.
Lastly, there aren't any good places for the two to meet - the closest is at the WTC, but they're at very different elevations.
I think the reason this comes up is because there were three places where the H&M planned to make pedestrian connections with the IRT - at the un-built 9th St/Astor Pl extension, at the un-built Grand Central extension, and at the IRT Fulton St. station. All of these had planning approval and at least partially-started construction. There were additional pedestrian corridors/connections planned but never implemented - for example, an elevated walkway/bridge between Hudson Terminal and the 9th Ave. El.
Terry....Where was construction planned or started for the H & M in the Grand Central station area?
Carl M.
The H&M maps from 1909-1915 show it as planned. See my [unfinished] page at http://www.tmk.com/hm_gallery for some scans.
Interesting indeed. One of the Grand Central plans even shows the shuttle platform which was started and never finished.
I even managed to pick out my former NJ residence, Pompton Plains, on the area maps. Get this: the old depot at Jackson Ave. is still there. At least it was still there in 1995.
There was an article which appeared in The Morning Call, a Paterson-based newspaper, IIRC, in 1967 which talked of a subway line from NYC out to the NJ suburbs. A construction timetable of eight years was given.
Over the weekends of October 21 and October 28, the MBTA Riverside Branch of the Green Line will have substitute bus service from Kenmore to Riverside, while the T resumes testing of the Type-8 Breda trolleys.
For those of you who are anxious for the R-142/R-142As to begin regular service in NYC, please note that the prototype Type-8 trolley arrived here in Boston over two-and-a-half years ago! These trolleys have been plagued by trouble, including software issues, wiring problems, and derailments on level, tangent track. Background can be found in an article on the New England Transit Web site.
Since two derailments back in July of this year, the trolleys have been completely out-of-service while the T and Breda point fingers at each other. The T has stopped accepting new cars, and has suspended all payments.
Perhaps after these tests, we'll get "back on track."
Well that's what the T gets for insisting on a custom-made product (the Type 8's are a T design, right?). Was there no trolley from Germany, the Netherlands, Austria or Belgium that could have been imported and modified to suit the T's needs? Of course, there's no excuse for the Bredas to derail on level tracks after being in Boston for two and a half years.
The T has a whole fleet of reliable LRVs from Kinki-Sharyo, who just recently produced LRVs for Jersey City. You'd think just maybe the MBTA would smart enough to go with a company that has served them well for years. But then again, this is the same MBTA that ripped out the tracks of the Green Line's A-Watertown branch just over three years ago and is probably going to do the same to the E-Arborway branch. Not only that, they run commuter trains (only on Monday thru Friday) on the Fairmount line which runs almost completely in Boston. It would be more efficient (and smarter) to use light rail on the Fairmount line. Something's wrong with the MBTA's decision makers. It's not so much that they suspended Watertown and Arborway service, but it's that they recently ripped up the Watertown tracks and may do that to Arborway. That flies in the face of what other cities are doing. The least they could do is covert Fairmount to light rail and send the locomotives and commuter cars assigned there to the other commuter lines and beef up service on them. Fairmount should be the new A branch of the Green Line.
while you may be correct as to usage/ridership characteristics on "Fairmount", after the brouhaha over price cutting on the T (ATK operated) rail lines, no politician not terminally ill would publicly suggest converting a mainline(Brotherhood) operation to 'transit' TWU? or ATU? The fight over Herzog would look like cricket in retrospect.
The Fairmount Line would be way down on my list of routes in Boston to convert to light rail. Befitting it's history as a freight railroad line, it skirts around the major residential and business areas of Dorchester (it passes close to Mattapan Square, but Mattapan already has it's own light rail connection to the heavy rail Red Line at Ashmont). I don't know what kind of weekday ridership the Fairmount commuter rail line generates, but I'll bet its patronage is dwarfed by the major bus routes in the area (the three major routes - 28, 29 and 31 - from Mattapan to Ruggles, Jackson Sq. and Forest Hills, respectively, and the 22 and 23 from Ashmont to Ruggles). In addition to all this, there is no obvious point where a Fairmount light rail line could be easily connected to the rest of the Green Line light rail network.
No, the real shame in Boston is that the MBTA has been allowed to screw its most needy group of riders for 13 years by running buses to replace the former Orange Line elevated route along Washington Street. The most obvious replacement service was a new light rail line from downtown Boston to Dudley Square. All the pieces were there to make this route the most successful new light rail line in North America - existing unused tunnels near Boylston to tie in to the rest of the Green Line network, a wide avenue like Washington Street perfectly suited for a light rail reservation down the middle, a ready-made transfer station at Dudley. BUT, NOOOOOO! MBTA management couldn't be convinced to do the right thing in this case. No, instead, after two decades of "planning", they are now foisting upon the Massachusetts taxpayers the 'Silver Line' fiasco - an electric-hybrid bus route from Roxbury to Boylston, across Chinatown to South Station, and then out to the South Boston waterfront. Never mind that there is currently no money to build the central connection between Boylston and South Station. Yes, the folks who brought you the Boeing LRV and the Type 8 are now reinventing the trackless trolley! Along a route that will probably cost twice what they spent to replace the entire elevated line to Forest Hills in the 80's. If the economic boom ever slows down in the Bay State, with projects like this one and the infamous 'Big Dig' highway project out there, the Massachusetts taxpayers are going to take it in the shorts big time.
- Jim
I guess Fairmount is too far to be useful. It does looks to be kind of close to the Red Line, at least according to Arrow's Metro Boston Transit Map. Probably Washington St is a better choice for light rail service. I personally don't see the point of the Silver Line. I looked at Washington St on the Arrow Map. A branch from the Green Line could be built from the old Tremont St tunnel and connect easily to Washington St. That should be easier than connecting over to the Fairmount tracks. But if Washington St is very wide, it should be a candidate for suface light rail. But a busway is not a go idea.
I just saw an interesting tidbit on the NYCT Subway Service Notices page:
Beginning November 6,
7express service will be extended from 9pm to 10pm.
7service will include "more frequent trains" weekdays from 5am to 11pm.
Do they have extra Corona Redbirds to make this service? Or is this anticipation of the introduction of R-142/A service on the main lines which could allow some Redbirds to be shifted to the 7?
The service increases are outside of the heart of the rush hours and so won't require extra trainsets.
David
Thanks for the update, David. I guess my imagination wandered...
Are they really extending express service to 10 PM or just accounting for the evening backup at Main St? :-)
Starting Nov 5th the E & F will have additional early evening service as well. Since it will be ouside the rush hour, no additional trainsets will be required, just the cars already running will put on additional mileage.
I would just like to know if the B trains are still going to be extended to 145 St on weekends starting November 5th or not.
Yes
The B train will operate to 145 St. seven days a week starting November 5th.
B trains between 145 and CI will operate from:
Leaving 145 St:
Weekday first departure: Lv BedPk at 526am Arr.CI at 657am
Weekday last departure: Lv 145 at 1229am Arr.CI at 139am
Saturday first departure: Lv 145 at 552am Arr.CI at 705am
Saturday last departure: Lv 145 at 1226am Arr.CI at 138am
Sunday first departure: Lv 145 at 612am Arr.CI at 725am
Sunday last departure: Lv 145 at 1229am Arr.CI at 139am
Leaving Coney Island:
Weekday first departure: Lv CI at 452am Arr.BedPk at 627am
Saturday first departure: Lv CI at 510am Arr.145 at 619am
Sunday first departure: Lv CI at 530am Arr.145 at 639am
Seven days a week last departure: Lv CI at 1207am Arr.145 at 119am
I would just like top know if anyone has heard about the possibility of extending the G trains to Church Av for 2001?
Perhaps
It would appear unlikely that the G service will be extended to Church Avenue. I say this for two reasons. First - what would be the purpose? Unless there is a plan to run express service from Church Ave. to Jay Street, what would be the real benifit? Second, one of the gains in cutting back G service from Continental Avenue to Court Square is that the G service required 30 less cars. This savings is critical for the implimentation of V service. Extending the G to Church Ave would mean the loss of that 30 car savings.
I would just like to know if anyone has heard about the possibility of extending the G trains to Church Av for 2001?
I would like to know if the #11 line will be use when the #7 line receives the R62A cars.
I don't believe there's a plan for that as of now...
Those rustbirds are becoming an eyesore (sorry rustbird fans). I'm looking forward to those R62As.
The R-62's are an eysore inside. Who in the hell decided it would be a good idea to panel the walls in [steel] mirrors that are easily scrached and cannot be de-scrached without a big deal. At least with the REDbirds they can easily be repainted.
Spraypaint slides right off steel panels, that was the logic. I'm kinda hoping they re-panel the R6Xs with R-46 style interiors, the "Seal of NY" and wood paneling seem to deter marring rather well (or, Jamaica yard is doing a good job).
That's a good question. The R-62As have the rollsigns while the Redbirds don't. What's to stop them from not doing this? Would a new route designation be a bad thing?
On a related note, why would two Qs on Brighton line confuse anyone when there are two sets of 6s and 7s?
-Stef
Because there have been two 6s and 7s for many many years. Passengers there are used to it.
Two Q's in the first few months will be extremely confusing to passengers until they get used to it.
1. Both IRT lines have always been served by one route, and the express only runs in one direction. The Brighton line has always had seperate express/local routes (since letters were introduced on the BMT in 1960).
2. People are remarkably stupid.
Yes, yesterday there were people waiting for the Broadway local at 14st while they were pouring concrete.
OK, I've been out of the loop for awhile it seems. A Number 11 line? Where is that supposed to be? And what happened to Number 10? Also, I saw in someone's posting reference to a new V line. Where will that run?
What happened to Number 10? While we're at it, what happened to Number 8? Turns out once the TA got past 7 on the R62/62A rollsigns, they started assigning red, green or purple at random to each number. So they go something like this:
1 - Red
2 - Red
3 - Red
4 - Green (Circle & Diamond)
5 - Green ( " " " )
6 - Green ( " " " )
7 - Purple (not sure if there's also a diamond)
8 - Back to Green (why, I don't know)
9 - Back to Red (that's why 9 and not 8 is paired with 1)
10 - Green again (from now on every even number is Green, wish I knew what the TA's reasoning, or lack of, was for that)
11 - Purple (the only other Purple - was the TA thinking of Slurpees and Big Gulps at the time when they designed the rollsigns?)
12 - Green yet again (would it have killed the TA to keep all the Greens together?)
13 - Red again (finally!)
14 - Green once again (though it might not be there)
So that in a nutshell is why the #7 express would have to become the #11. Who knows, maybe you'll be able to buy a Big Gulp or a Slurpee while you wait for the train.
The 7 does have a diamond in there. (I think there are 2 12s). On the actual sign, it goes
(9) (1) (2) (3) (12) (13) (4) <4> (5) <5> (6) <6> (8) (10) (12) (14) (7) <7> (11) (S) Special Not In Service
Listen for announcement might be after Not In Service, but I'm not sure (never scrolled that far).
I don't know. I sort of think the IRT numbering system works best with as few numbers as possible. It was just about right when it went up to 7. Adding 8 or 9 was about the limit. Once you get into 2 digit numbers the system loses its basic simplicity and recognizability. With 14 numers it might as well be an obscure bus system.
Andrew:)
That's when it starts approaching the old BMT number code, which went up to 16.
I had assumed that the TA skipped #8, because it would sound too much like "A" in those garbled train and station announcements. That would particularly be a problem if one is riding, for example, on a #2 train, wants to transfer to the #8, and finds himself at a station where he can only transfer to the "A". (Not everyone reads maps.)
When the numbers were handed out in the 1960s, the Third Ave. El in the Bronx was designated as the No. 8 train, though like the MJ-Myrtle Ave. El, there were never any official route signs made for it.
Why they went with the No. 9 train for the Broadway skip stop plan instead of reusing the No. 8 is beyond me, unless that proposed mass transit bond issue includes reconstruction of the Third Ave. el as one of its projects.
Because they created a pattern for each line on the R-62 rollsign:
8 = Double the 4*
9 = US-1/9 in New Jersey. People are already used to a 1/9 pairing!
10= Double the 5
11= Convenience Store
12= 2 with a 1 before it
13= 3 with a 1 before it
*This is actually planned for the 6. I guess they didn't want to jump to 16 and gave 8 to the Lexington, because otherwise the distribution of new numbers would be 4-1 instead of a more even 3-2.
Most people in New York City don't know about the US 1/9 pairing in New Jersey, much less anything else that goes on there. The TA should have made the 8 sign red to avoid skipping numbers.
When all of the new R142 & R142A cars are all in service on the #2,5 & 6 lines, how many R62A cars will be transferred to the #7 line & how many redbird cars will remain in service until the next batch of cars are ordered.
I'd like to know if you ever have contibuted anything but questions to this board?
I don't think that just contributing questions is a problem.
However, if you contribute no new questions, as follot has done, then that's a problem.
You're right, reading the archives would have given him the answers.
Arti
ahem.
archives don't always provide answers. nor are they ever specific or straight to the point. tried already didn't to seem to work with me nor will it work with others who want a direct answer.
isn't this why we all come here? if one has more questions to contribute than aswers thats fine. we are all here to relate to our love for rolling stock and to gain knowledge if we seemed lost.
This comes up so many times. Well I'm going to try to answer this as best I can. The R62As currently assigned to the 6 will all go to the 7. But that will not be enough cars to fully equip the 7 with all R62As, which I believe is what the plan entails. So R62As have to come from another line. The way I see it, the 3 will be that line. Also because the 7 runs with 11 car-trains so it will need single cars to make 11 cars since the R62A cars coming from the 6 are linked into five-car sets and only the 3 runs with single R62As (all R62 and 62As were originally single units). It's likely that R36s from the 7 will temporarily be transfered to the 3 and will eventually be replaced by R142s. The 3 can run with 10-car trains, but it only uses nine cars due to space in Lenox Yard in Harlem. If the Redbird sets are based out of Brooklyn's Livonia Yard, there should be no problems running them on the 3, which I hear is supposed to go to 10-car sets anyway. But this is what I THINK will happen. It's just speculation.
The 3 train uses 9 cars because at the 145 St. station, the 10th car would "foul" the home signal south of the station which would prevent the 2 train from operating to and from The Bronx. In the event of a delay getting into 148 St., number 2 service would be obliterated.
And yet the #3 will be going to 10-car trains as soon as enough R-142/142As are in service to allow cars to be transferred to the #3! (And no, I don't know whether they'll be R-62As or Redbirds.)
David
It will be hell on wheels when those R-62As go to the Flushing line.
First, those narrow sculpted seats will mean fewer people will be able to sit in comfort. At least the current Silver Fox bench seats accommodate differently-sized derrieres. On the R-62 series, it is one size fits all. Can't they use the old bench seats and attach them to the R-62s?
Second, the R-62A interiors look like crap. The striped stainless steel interiors are all scratched up and have these interesting dents in them, as if someone took a center punch and a hammer and banged away at them. I never did like those monochromatic interiors. At least the two-tone beige and red (and the blue and gray, and beige and orange before it) had some eye catching appeal.
Third, I hate those overhead grab bars. They don't give with your hand as the train rocks from side to side along the trackage like the triangular straps do on the Silver Foxes. Again, can't they remove those stupid bars and replace them with the older, more useful, models?
Finally, hasn't history dictated that the Flushing line constantly receives new equipment? The R-12/14s, R-15s, R-17s, and R-36s all debuted on the Flushing line. Why can't the 142s as well?
Third, I hate those overhead grab bars. They don't give with your hand as the train rocks from side to side along the trackage like the triangular straps do on the Silver Foxes. Again, can't they remove those stupid bars and replace them with the older, more useful, models?
I agree with you about the walls and benches, but not about this. Those straphangers are horrible. Not only are they useless for side-to-side swaying (which is what you really need on the express), they also create sharing problems. There are a bunch of empty straphangers, but the ones closest to you are all full. That and you can only fit as many people as there are straps, the bar fits many more. Compromise can be had by suspending straps from bars like on busses.
Finally, hasn't history dictated that the Flushing line constantly receives new equipment? The R-12/14s, R-15s, R-17s, and R-36s all debuted on the Flushing line. Why can't the 142s as well?
Don't you think it's about time that another line had a chance to receive cars that aren't hand-me-downs?
i agree. The 7 needs them more than does the 6 and the 3 needs them. they should send R-142's to the corona yard where they are more needed. it could happen. when all the sets from both manufactureres come in, then mta could change their minds.
1. I think that Pork was referring to the fact that the 7 line should get "hand-me-down" cars.
2. The 7 might need the R62a more than the 3 but I dont think that they need it more than the 6. Then again the 6 is getting the R142 so its a dead issue.
3TM
ok
To maintain high-tech cars you need a modern high-tech maintance facility. This is why E.180 ST (2/5) has a brand new maintance facility, and Westchester (6) was bought up to modern standards 2 years ago. For example, to change an air conditioning unit in an R142, you need an overhead crane since it's mounted on the roof rather than under the car. Since these cars are highly computerised, you also need modern diagnostic equipment. To transfer cars elsewhere to do certain tasks is unproductive and keeps cars out of service for longer periods of time than necessary. Corona Yard is an old facility. It has not received any major upgrades. So that barn can't support high tech equipment at this time. Plans are in the works to build a new maintance facility and a loop track opposite the bus parking area where the trains are laid up in the rear of the yard, but this is several years away.
Why do you say "Not!" to the R62As going to the 7? The R62As are not high-tech cars like the R142s are and I'm pretty sure Corona can handle the R62As even if it is an old barn. Are you saying that Redbirds are going to remain on the 7 for the next several years until the new facility and loop track at Corona are done? I sure hope not! Those single no-A/C R33s should not be carrying passengers anymore.
"Not" should have been put on R142's not going to Corona. My error in the original title. I corrected it here.
Silver Fox:
I agree with you that it will be hell on wheels riding the #7 when they assign the R-62As to that line because of the sculpted seats in those cars. Maybe if enough people complain maybe the TA might get the message and remove the sculpted seats from those cars and install bench seat similar to what is in the R-36s.
BMTJeff
Actually, the best reason right now for not moving the R-62As to the No. 7 train is the MDBF numbers Train Dude posted a couple of days ago. The Corona yard's trains are ranked second in the entire fleet, behind TD's Concourse R-68s.
Going on that, it's silly to break up the fleet right now, if it has reliability levels higher than every other yard in the system except for one. Replace the Redbirds in the other yards first, and then replace the R-33/36 WF trains when the supplemental order for the R-142s comes in.
If it's possible to put the ghastly R-33S to slaughter before this summer, then they should do so.
Actually the R62s and R62A's are my favorite cars in the system, though I aggree with you about the seats.
Hey! At least there will be working air conditioners. And nice, big rollsigns.
:)Andrew
What the TA should do is give the R62As going to the 7 new interior panels and bench seats. Some R62s on the 4 have light and dark orange bench seats (I think the car numbers are in the upper 1500s). Why more of those bench seats haven't appeared is beyond me. But the R62/62A interior panels do need to be replaced with something a little less stark than what they currently have.
1587-1590 have the strange seats (which are supposed to be in the same color pattern as the normal seats, but have been rearranged into solid colors for each bench).
Let's not forget something. The R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s were initially assigned to the Flushing line because their doors would not line up with the gap fillers then in use at Union Square, Brooklyn Bridge, and South Ferry, which were oriented around the vestibule door arrangement.
The R-17s were the first mainline R units, initally entering service on the 6. Some were transferred to the 7 in the early 60s not long before the R-36s came along. The R-36s were ordered on the premise that new cars sure would look nice when transporting all those fairgoers to the World's Fair.
Wow! R36WF cars on the #3 line for temporarily I would like that to happen.
Only if they have 10 cars.
NO R-33S!
Oh, I should have mentioned, the single R33s would go off to the museums or the scrapper. This could and should have been done years ago had R62s or R62As been assigned to the 7 after the major rehabilitation of the Flushing Line and 42nd St Tunnel had been finished and most of the R62/62As were still single units. The 7's redbirds would have gone to whichever line it swapped cars with and then eventually be replaced with R142/142As.
The R33S cars will be kept for non passenger chores according to my sources. The 4 trip cocks per car make them quite versatile. Could be used for revenue collectors, horses on the refuse trains (R127 & R134 cars are big unreliable headaches) ,signal dolly, and yard horses. Being single cars, each has all mechanical components and moving defective cars around yards and transfering defective cars from one yard to another will make these cars valuable assets.
Oh, that's right! I forgot about using them as work trains. That could be done too.
I thought that the R-36s or R-33 MLs would become revenue collectors, air conditioning and the steady light might help out the people who bring the boss his salary.
You might think this is a strange question from the guy who hosts the LIRR History website , but I'm not talking about Jamaica, Queens. I'm talking about the island of Jamaica in the West Indies. I'll be going there on vacation in a few days.
You might think this is a strange question from the guy who hosts the LIRR History website , but I'm not talking about Jamaica, Queens. I'm talking about the island of Jamaica in the West Indies. I'll be
going there on vacation in a few days.
I do recall seeing a rail line on my trusty world atlas, which alas I can no longer locate. IIRC, it ran northwesterly from Kingston to the north coast. Dunno if it carries passengers or is freight-only.
That's probably as bad as the railfan who went on vacation to the southern tip of the outer banks of North Carolina.
You have to plan ahead and vacation where the trains are!
I haven't found an official site for the Jamaica Railway
Corporation, but a number of Jamaica tourism sites list them as a tour operator, presumably implying that they still operate passenger service. In the Sixties they were using RDCs. Their local number in Kingston is 922-6620.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
There used to be a train (diesel railcar, as I remember) between Kingston and Montego Bay, but the current "Cook's Overseas Timetable" shows only bus services now.
Bob,
Asked a co-worker of mine, who hails from there, and he said that there was a passenger rail line but it was discontinued some time ago. He believes that they have even torn up the tracks. There is a freight line however. Enjoy your trip.
Peace,
ANDEE
Today I rode bus #2710 on the X1, exterior looks the same, interior looks a little neater, the operator's area is a bit bigger.
Overall ride quality is that better than the earlier MCIs we recieve but that's because we broke those in already, LOL!
Regards,
Um, wrong pic there fella.
Wrong talk, Trevor.
3TM
I just realized that, OOPPSSS SORRY!
Looks like I was clicking a little too fast!
Regards,
Back in the 1970's and perhaps the early 1980's, the LIRR's M1 and M3 multiple unit cars had a full paint scheme(blue striping). Does anyone know why they now have nothing but a yellow stripe on the cab ends. The full blue paint scheme that they once had was when those cars looked their best. The Metro North's Harlem/Hudson Division M1 & M3 and the New Haven Division M2,M4 & M6 multiple unit cars look so much better then the one's on the LIRR right now.
One reason, believe it or not, is that the LIRR no longer has a paint shop.
The last time I checked, the LIRR is listed as the largest commuter railroad in the nation. But they don't have a paint shop. Something is wrong with that picture. I've always liked the M1 through M6 Multiple Unit Cars. They are nice looking rail passenger cars, and a decent looking paint job does a lot for their appearance. Does anyone know who the top dog of the LIRR is? I would love to send him or her a download of pictures of what their M1 & M3 cars looked like back in the day. Thanks for the word Peter Rosa and Mr K.
Perhaps the LIRR doesn't have a paint shop because they were planning to eliminate painted equipment and go with stuff that is stainless steel, etc. It saves a LOT of expense going this way. What little DOES need to be repainted now and then can always be contracted out. While we railfans might not like the appearance of the equipment with the lackof "color" it makes very much business and practical sense to do without it. (After all, the LIRR stuff is usually so dirty, anyway, that we can't tell what color it is anyway...)
Metrolink, in southern California, may not be anywhere near as large, but they do have 33 diesel locomotives, as well as almost 150 Bombardier commuter cars. And they don't have a paint shop either. When their equipment needs to be repainted, believe it or not, it gets sent all the way to Tacoma, Washington!! (Of course, dealing with California environmental regulations had everything to do with this situation.)
Tom Prendergast is the president of the LIRR.
I knew that money would be the overall and underlying reason for the LIRR's M1/M3 current appearance. Metro North's MU fleet(M1's through M6's)total at about 667. With the paint job they have had for sometime, they are now getting a facelift. It consists of what is called the Pacman(MTA Logo)and Zebra Stripes. The Zebra Stripes shocked me at first, but it actually goes along well with everything else. The LIRR's MU fleet(M1/M3's)total at about 942. 942 railcars that from what I've heard is too expensive to put a decent paint job on them. Well maybe they should just leave them bare like the subway cars (example R40/42& R62/68). That yellow stripe, UHHHHH just doesn't look right. Thanks for the info and the LIRR's President's name.
Not anymore. He left in the spring to work for a consultant in England.
David
Thank you David, do you know who took over as President of the LIRR? Another question? Does anyone know why on the R32 and R38 Subway Car Cab Ends that the Route/Destination Sign window has replaced by a slab of sheet metal that has just a route sign window and no upper marker lights. It must be a money thing again. Or can anyone give me the specifics behind that?
Kenneth Bauer is the acting President of the LIRR.
As to the route/destination signs on R-32 and R-38 cars, it was decided by the Division of Car Equipment that it would be too difficult for Train Operators to get at route and destination signs after overhaul, with air conditioning equipment in the way (except for 10 R-38s, none of these cars were built with air conditioning). Therefore, it was decided to use flip-dot route signs (with no destination signs) instead; each #1 cab has a reading selector, essentially a dial labeled with letters A through Z, numbers O through 9, and some other characters.
David
Thanks for the information David.
Yeah. The blue strip looks so much spiffier. I ahte that like one out of every twenty or so LIRR cars have it.
Andrew
I don't know if the stripe was painted as delivered, but later it was a decal. As the decals wore, the LIRR didn't want to go to the trouble and expense of removing the old decals and applying new ones.
Or so I've been told.
The blue panels on the M-1/M-3 cars were actually 3M Scotchlite reflective panels. They are a little on the expensive side to replace. The would fade after many trips through bad weather, also it was impossible to remove grafitti, if it occured on them, as whatever removed the grafitti would also remove the color from the panels. So, the choice was made to NOT replace them when cars went through general overhauls. Doing patchwork on a car would make it really look like crap with different degrees of fading.
Metro North had their blue stripes painted on as I remember, so it's just a matter of touching up the paint.
From what I saw in Penn Station it appears that even the Yellow Stripe is being removed.
The yellow stripe is required for visibility at RR crossings. One car has a blue stripe across the front instead, and no stripe on the side.
I was saying that some cars have a yellow side stripe and others are bare Steel.
They're either bare steel or blue. The LIRR has never had a yellow side stripe (on the MUs).
Henry, I don't doubt your word about the requirement for the yellow stripe for Railroad Crossings, but I don't understand it. If you are looking down a set of tracks and a train is coming(and LIRR MU set)at you, your eyes are going to pick up on it's headlights. Especially now from what I've seen, LIRR and Metro North MU's have been outfitted with a third light at the top of the cab ends. And since all trains are required to have their lights on outside day or night, no matter what color the stripe is your eyes are going to pick up on the lights first. In addition I associate road and rail crossings with death. You know as well as I do that a lot of people have died due to the accidental meeting between trains and automobiles. The LIRR the largest commuter railroad in the nation and yet it still has on it's routes those archaic death traps. Maybe I'm sounding too harsh but that's how I feel. What do you think?
Well, I contradict here, I've always felt RR crossings are stupid people elimination devices, since the only ways anyone can get hurt is:
1. They go around the gates (just plain stupid).
2. They drive onto the tracks without adequate clearance on the other side and the gates come down, cars close in behind (stupid, but understandable if the a$$hole behind is leaning on the horn, though putting your car in reverse and 'nudging' shuts ém up).
3. The gates malfunction (rare, but it happens).
4. No gates, and no one looks (stupid, but then again are there any of these left on main roads?).
5. They decide to go "down with the ship" when the car stalls on the tracks.
6. They think they're clear, but their ass is still over the rail.
7. They park on the tracks. Yes, the RxR at 88st in Queens sees about 3 trains a day each direction, it's a tempting spot. Just not after 4:20 PM (One freight, one deadhead, and one passenger train go thru before 5:15).
Except for #3, and maybe #4, all of these are the fault of the driver. Tell me not!
The RR shouldn't have to spend millions idiot-proofing its routes.
More people get injured annually in traffic accidents than grade crossing accidents. Does that mean intersections sould be replaced with highway interchanges?
8. They get pushed onto the tracks by the murderer or personslaughterer behind them.
Forgot about that... but pushings can happen anywhere, stations, crossings, even streets.
people are so stupid. people who get high or hate life would just jump in between railroad crossings. those and the ones who don't have sense to know it ain't ur average intersection.
Henry, you made some good points. However, "Idiot Proofing" the LIRR's routes maybe the best thing despite the expense. It's a human fact of life, we're always going to have idiots around us doing idiotic things.
Perhaps, but remember -
- People, such as passengers in cars, who can't be blamed, get killed at grade crossings.
- How much does each serious grade crossing collision cost the RR? I bet its on the order of $1M - think about all the investigation, legal costs, equipment damage, infrastructure damage.
- I like hearing horns at grade crossings. Most people don't.
- Particularly on lines with freight, eliminating the crossings eliminates a delay where cars sit with their engines running...
- RRs have to spend thousands per year maintaining each crossing aside from the costs associated with accidents. Probably tens of thousands.
- Grade crossings are potentially a limiting factor for the max. speed on a line. I'd say this isnt really a factor on the LIRR yet.
- You could get killed riding the train by a grade crossing - remember the City of New Orleans wreck. Not too likely, but just another factor.
One night riding the LIRR after a thunderstorm knocked out power on a lot of the island, we crept along for hours because the power was out to the gates (though not to the third rail or the signals - strangely). The conductor had to manually flag every crossing.
Good points as well, but the LIRR freights aren't long or slow.
The LIRR seems to care more about now money than later money (in one year cheaper to maintain crossings than build bridges).
In most cases the crossings were there before the people, they've no right to complain.
A stalled tractor trailer on Mineola crossing caused my ride on the -then- brand new C-3s from Port Jeff to be rerouted via the Central (Bethpage/Babylon). Conductor announced "This is Jamaica, this train is 1 hour 45 minutes late, sorry for any inconvenience and thank you for riding the LIRR." We picked up the passengers from the local from Huntington at Hicksville.
Well, we should encourage them to think MORE long term.
Commuter RRs and mass transit is often very happy to capitalize to save money in the long run - because capital $$$ often come from outside the agency (mainly uncle sam) and are only available for capital costs. They don't show up as a negative in the annual report. Scheduled maintenance, OTOH, has to be paid for out of operating budgets, and it looks best to minimize the operating subsidy.
Except for Septa, which apparently thinks the RR will run better if you don't try to mess around with things. Just keep running trains to those dilapidated low platforms long enough, and all those annoying passengers will eventually give up.
The passengers might start bringing stepladders or gangplanks to gain access to the train. That in unless the conductor forgets to open that single door.
Starnge that the crossing gates/flashers were out during that powr outage. Usually they are powered by batteries in boxes near the crossings; those batteries are charged up by outside current. Now that I think of it, perhaps there were just too many trains already through the crossings when you got there, and the "juice" in the batteries was used up.
Remember the big blackout of 11/65? I went to Cardinal Hayes HS, and used the LIRR to get to/from home in Brightwaters. I took a late train home that night after some extracurricular activity, and our train went down the Central Branch full speed ahead, as everything was still working for the railroad (signals, crossing protection). It was only when we went through Babylon station that people started noticing nothing was lit up outside the train!!! And it was pitch black at Bay Shore station, except for the lights on the train and the crossings at either end of the platform.
The 50th birthday party for the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines Budd Cars was held Saturday Oct 21 in Cape May, NJ. The first order of 6 cars was delivered Oct 18, 1950 (the other 6 were delivered in April, 1951). Among the featured speakers was a retired PRSL engineer who mentioned (among other more up-beat topics) that he killed two people with Budd cars and 14 people with freight trains. He once counted the grade crossings on the Cape May to Philadelphia run: 93. One round trip (a day's work) involved 186 chances to hit a motor vehicle (his words).
The engineer mentioned in the previous-in-thread post was a fireman on the Camden to Hammonton local when Budd cars replaced steam locomotives on that run. His engineer was highly skilled with steam, but had difficulty mastering the Budd cars, so he asked Bill to switch seats and operate the train after they left Camden. On the third or fourth trip, upon leaving the last station before Hammonton with a 7 mile straight run, the engineer asked Bill to "see what she'll do". The single car got up to 95 mph and overran the station at Hammonton. The engineer got back into his seat before the conductor entered the cab and said he forgot there was a passenger for Hammonton. He backed into the station without further incident.
It's on now
No it's not.
It's on WEDNESDAY now.
However, I may drop scheduling of the chat.
This means that anybody can post the time of the chat and it will be held on the fly, but you cannot expect a chat to start unannounced.
I also will not announce them, that will fall on you, the Subtalk public. For now, anybody can announce a chat, but reliable weekly chat is available on Wednesday.
As i read the confusing maps etc. i just wanted to ask if there is such a thing as saturday rush hour service on any line anywhere ??
thank you this will help me in my shooting video ! thankz
salaam allah
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
No, at least not as far as I know. When I'm in the City it's usually on a Sunday, but I have been there on Saturday morning a couple of times and haven't seen enough people riding to justify the extra service.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IMHO weekend peak demand starts few hours later than on weekdays. Slightly off the topic, I rode the G few weeks ago around 2 AM on the weekend, no seat available!
Arti
I rode the G few weeks ago around 2 AM on the weekend, no seat available!
Someone else mentioned that a year or two ago as part of a lengthy discussion on the usefulness of the G train... I've only ridden that line a couple of times (once each direction, maybe twice) and it sounds like the G is better patronized during the night hours than it is during the day. I don't know that area of the City very well but either its demographics are quite unusual or there are no alternative means of transportation at night.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The crowd was mostly young, probably college kids. I was coming from a party in Williamsburg and to get to Manhattan I couldn't think of any alternative ways.
Arti
Granted, by are your saying that there was no seats in YOUR car or no seats in the ENTIRE train?
Some were standing. I didn't take the whole route, on G does anyone do? I connected to L to get to Manhattan.
Arti
One of the reasons why annual subway ridership figures today are lower than those of the 1930's and 1940's is the fact that many people worked a half-day on Saturdays back then. As a result, today there are two fewer rush hours each week.
Sorry Salaam but there is no Saturday rush hour service available. Two Staten Island express buses(X1 and X10) run seven days a week but that is it.
* ( oh well ) I did not think so!! its just I was loking where to shoot video on saturday ( nice try ) & I thank you !!!
Dont forget the x17 bus as well. (I know this belong in BT.)
3TM
You're right. I was referring to the schedules on the back of the S.I. bus map dated Sept.1999 that I had picked up a few days ago which said that the X17 ran weekdays only. Obviously, Saturday service was added since then.
Sure, service. Every hour and a half. At least the last Manhattan bound bus is around 7PM, unlike weekdays which is 3PM. I use it to get to the mall there (excuse to ride MCIs).
Until after World War II the six day work week was common. Because many people who worked six days (by the early '50s anyway) worked a short day on Saturday, there was a normal AM rush hour, but an earlier and lighter evening rush.
Until recently it was common for some commuter rail and bus lines to have significantly heavier service on Saturday than Sunday, or no service at all on Sunday.
At least into the 60's NYCTA had separate Saturday and Sunday schedules.
Now most systems seem to want to maintain just two schedules. for weekday and weekend and there's no Saturday "rush."
NYCT still has separate Weekday, Saturday, and Sunday schedules.
David
I worked in the Wall Street area in the 1950's. Saturday was indeed supposed to be a short day, but most of them seemed to turn out to be a regular full day!
In the early 1950s the BMT Jamaica line still had rush-hour service on Saturday mornings into the city (express from Bway. Jct. to Essex St.) but not on Saturday afternoons. You would think with all these computer, bank and legal types working day and night there would be a market for weekend rush-hour service, but I suppose they all get a limo home after 8 p.m. or so.
The train was a lot less crowded on Saturday than it was during the week. I would get on at Crescent St, and quite often I could get a seat at Eastern Parkway. Trying to pick up a used newspaper at Broad St was much more difficult on Saturday than it was during the week.
>>> Until recently it was common for some commuter rail and bus lines to have significantly heavier service on Saturday than Sunday, or no service at all on Sunday. <<<
Two things contributed to the equalization of service on Saturdays and Sundays. The five day work week reduced the travel on Saturdays, and the elimination of Sunday blue laws which prevented stores from opening on Sundays increased the amount of travel on Sundays.
Tom
IIRC, the BMT ran weekday schedules on Saturdays on both the Brighton express and the West End (T) line into the 1960's.
If projected ridership for a future rail line in Atlanta is to be 8,000/day, would that be enough to justify a commuter rail line that costs over $1 billion, or would a commuter bus which would be cheaper be a better alternative? Does anyone know if public perception of buses vs. trains affect the number of people that would use a commuter rail/bus line?
That'll be around $75 a year per passanger assuming 5y amortization, does that $1B include the rolling stock?
Arti
$1 Billion for one commuter line? Is the transit agency planning this line going to use brand-new, custom-made, state-of-the-art EMUs on this line? Will it be built on a whole new right of way with no grade crossings?
Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude or sarcastic, but does it really cost $1 Billion for a new commuter rail line if it utilizes existing trackage, simple (but attractive) stations and either off-the-shelf DMUs, diesel LRVs or push-pull equipment? I know there are still other expenses such as paying the crew, but $1 Billion seems like a high figure for a new commuter rail line for Atlanta and its suburbs unless it's going to be a very complicated line or a MARTA service.
Does anyone know if public perception of buses vs. trains affect the number of people that would use a commuter rail/bus line?
I know in many areas busses are seen as riden only by the poor. I don't know about atlanta but in DC busses only add to trafic problems by blocking off lanes. They are also very slow as compared to rail. I imagine people in atlanta don't live in the city center, so the busses would have to be long distance routes. Even if they were express buses I doubt if they would get enough ridership to jusitify the ridership. In the DC area they tried an express bus between tysons and gaithersburg, even with a 1.10 (or is that 1.50) fare I don't think it gets the ridership to warrant it. I don't see why people would want to pay 1.10 to sit in the same traffic that they would normaly sit in with a bunch of strangers. Although 1 billion seems expensive for a commuter rail. 8,000 ppd would not justify that expense. Would they have to purchase ROW? If so why can't they run it on CSXT or other freight tracks?
Arti asked, ...does that $1B include the rolling stock?
I never read anything that said that it would, but I believe that it does include rolling stock
R142 #2 asked, $1 Billion for one commuter line? Is the transit agency planning this line going to use brand-new, custom-made, state-of-the-art EMUs on this line? Will it be built on a whole new right of way with no grade crossings?
samplescr asked, Would they have to purchase ROW? If so why can't they run it on CSXT or other freight tracks?
The line will be from Atlanta to Athens, a semi-major city 60 miles or so to the east of Atlanta. Presently, the CSX rail lines are overburned as it is with their own traffic, also, to compete with cars, the trains would have to run at least 80 MPH, so they would have to get rid of grade crossings and add more tracks. They will probably use the CSX ROW.
The debate is whether it's worthi it to spend that much money on a line that won't carry that many people.
The debate is whether it's worthi it to spend that much money on a line that won't carry that many people
No it not. It would be a better use of the money to widen the highway. Two additional lanes of traffic could handle 8,000 people AN HOUR.
[It would be a better use of the money to widen the highway. Two additional lanes of traffic could handle 8,000 people an hour.]
1. Is that 8,000 PEOPLE, or 8,000 CARS? What is the average auto occupancy rate in the Atlanta area? (At least someone realizes that transportation policy is about moving people, not vehicles.)
2. Would widening the highway actually MITIGATE the congestion problem, or only MOVE the problem to a future generation? How much new traffic would be attracted to the newly-widened highway and use up the added capacity? And how quickly?
3. A new rail line COULD attract a very large number of riders - and even divert some of them from autos - through very strategic planning of both the right-of-way itself and future land uses along it. Look at WMATA MetroRail for some good examples of this.
Widening the highway would just encourage more traffic and more pollution. Building more roads has been the Atlanta philosophy for a long time up until recently. Atlanta has been in violation of EPA pollution standards and all federal transportation money was frozen for the past two years. The federal money will start flowing again this November because Atlanta's 25 year transportation plan calls for less spending on highways and more spending on transit. Since most people drive solo, there is no way one additional lane on each side will handle 8,000 people an hour. The highway in question, GA 316, is extremely backed up every day during rush hour, I drive over it nearly everyday to go to school.
Atlanta really needs an alterantive to highways. That's why commuter rail is being studied. However, because of costs, people are wandering if a commuter bus would do the same thing, only at a cheaper cost. The reason ridership will probably be low is because people would have to drive to a train station, if they are already in their cars, why would they make an extra step and not just drive all the way into Atlanta?
Commuter rail VS Commuter Bus? Well. Would you rather eat ice cream or cow manure? I think riding a commuter bus should be a form of punishment for serial killers.
My Site
>>> The reason ridership will probably be low is because people would have to drive to a
train station, if they are already in their cars, why would they make an extra step and not just drive all the way into Atlanta? <<<
The only way to make public commuter transit, either rail or bus, "successful" (but not necessarily profitable), is to penalize those who drive into the city with high parking rates or other costs. As long as the costs of traveling in time and money are similar by private vehicle or public transportation, private vehicles will win out. If Manhattan had the relative amount of inexpensive parking as Atlanta, there would be a significant reduction in train travel in NYC.
Tom
(The only way to make public commuter transit, either rail or bus, "successful" (but not necessarily profitable), is to penalize
those who drive into the city with high parking rates or other costs.)
You can only do that if suburban development is strictly controlled, or people are desperate to be in the city. Otherwise, higher costs in the city will just drive businesses to suburban office parks, where EVERYONE must drive.
We could probably get away with this in Manhattan, by tolling all the approaches with peak hour prices. The business owners would probably prefer to pay the tolls if others turn to transit and congestion went down. I'm not sure Downtown Atlanta has enough pull to compete with free parking in Cobb County.
>>> We could probably get away with this in Manhattan, by tolling all the approaches with peak hour prices. <<<
Larry;
What do you mean could get away with this in Manhattan? It has already been done in Manhattan. You surely do not think all those people on the subways during the rush hours are there because they are railfans? They are there because they cannot find a place to park in Manhattan that they can afford.
I have no knowledge of Chicago, but here in Los Angeles, the nation's third largest city, I can drive downtown and find daily parking for $1.50, even during the transit strike. I assume Atlanta is equally auto friendly. Los Angeles will not get much public transit commuter business other than from those who do not own and cannot afford to own automobiles, as long as there is plenty of low cost parking in the center of the city.
Tom
What do you mean could get away with this in Manhattan? It has already been done in Manhattan. You surely do not think all those people on the subways during the rush hours are there because they are railfans? They are there because they cannot find a place to park in Manhattan that they can afford.
And some people will drive into Manhattan regardless of the cost. The 150-car surface lot across from my office charges something like $175 per month plus 18% tax, yet is filled to capacity every workday.
(What do you mean could get away with this in Manhattan? It has already been done in Manhattan. You surely do not think all those people on the subways during the rush hours are there because they are railfans? They are there because they cannot find a place to park in Manhattan that they can afford.)
They are taking transit because they are politically powerless. If they had political power, they'd have a pass to park on the street in Manhattan no parking zones, or (if wealth and power) a space paid for by the company. DCP estimates one person in seven driving into Manhattan has a parking pass from the city. Those people always take the free bridges, never the tolled crossings. Toll all the crossings and they'd have to pay, too. Then, perhaps, they'd take the subway.
What I was saying is that widing the road would much more cost effecent. Having everone in the US pay $1,000,000,000 for train service that benefits 8,000 surburbinites is outrageous. A private company would never do that, nor would anyone buy bonds to pay for it. No one will ride it if the fares are $45.00 each way. So who pays for it? You, me, old tom and everyone else who buys a gallon of gas in this nation. Something like that would be a white elephant on the scale of Brasilia. It offends me that people in Atlanta are even considering this.
At that price one of the study alternatives should be giving those 8000 the money to stay home :-)
Arti
(Atlanta really needs an alterantive to highways. That's why commuter rail is being studied. However, because of costs, people
are wandering if a commuter bus would do the same thing, only at a cheaper cost.)
For a commuter bus to do the same thing, you need to widen the highways -- right into the center of the city -- and reserve the extra lanes for the bus. I've thought about this quite a bit. Cities like Atlanta don't have the density for rail, but they're too big for a car. Remember, New York City got dense enough to justify a subway by going through several other transit modes first.
Let's say they added bus lanes on the OUTSIDE of the highway (expensive, because all the exits would have to be rebuilt as flyovers). Some buses could pull off the side at "stations" (just as commuter rail would) while others run express right to a bus station in the center of town. Those who've followed the threads know this is my solution for Staten Island. The express buses could run through neighborhoods of from park-n'ride lots, get on the busway, and go -- right past the cars sitting in traffic.
Imagine it's 30 years from now and future growth had clustered around the busways, and you started to get bus congestion. You've already got a grade-separated transit ROW with stations. All you'd have to do is lay down rail!
It sounds like there are other advantages to this project. In the end, CSX will probably benefit, and in an ideal world, would pay for that benefit. Also, the elimination of all those grade crossings is a pretty significant public benefit.
One other thing - the first segment of commuter rail put into a city probably has the poorest cost/benefit ratio.
>>> Does anyone know if public perception of buses vs. trains affect the number of people that would use a commuter rail/bus line? <<<
IMO there is a clear preference for rail among commuters who would otherwise drive. Commuter busses, even those with upholstered seats tend to have less individual room because of the inherent width limit of the vehicle, and the necessity of carrying as many passengers as possible to reduce the labor cost per passenger of operating the bus. If the bus does not have its own lane on the highway, there is not much time advantage over driving.
OTOH, even among non railfans, there is more class in commuting by train than bus. Assuming there are seats for everyone, there is more individual room, and probably more consistent on time operation because of the dedicated ROW. In a commuting situation, the same people tend to ride at the same time, and with the ability to easily move around a rail car, commuting friendships can arise. Add to that a subliminal knowledge from popular culture (books, movies, etc.) that even important executives in New York commute on the LIRR, and rail travel is seen as better than driving.
Tom
Does anybody know what they are doing on the D between Cortelyou and Newkirk? They are making quite a racket and it's after 10pm.
There is a G.O. ending today that had all D running express Prospect Park to the Highway late nights and weekends. So that must be what you are hearing, I don't know what they are doing though >G<.
The last G.O. was for tree trimming on the ROW.
Today (Saturday)I was on a B train at around 3pm going north from Grand street when we switched over to the local track before W4th. There was no one standing on the express platform (a train had just departed). We ran express on the local track and I got off at 34th and waited for the F. A "D" train arrived shortly after I got off the B on it's usual express track. Another B followed a few minutes later, back on the express track (a Slant R40).
I guess the D train I saw got stuck in the dash (express) tracks and my train was rerouted. I know one of these days my train is going to go BIE. I've been lucky, it's never happened to me yet.
We all know that Manhattan used underground electrical lines instead of overhead wire. I've seen pictures of Bronx trolleys using overhead wire. Since they were different, which one did the upper Manhattan crosstowns that go to the Bronx use?
There were "plow pits" in upper Manhattan, staffed by people who would attach the plow on the trolley to the underground conduit. In the Bronx, the lines would use the overhead trolley wire. I don't have the complete list, but the 125th Street crosstown line was one that worked this way.
David
At plow pits, the pitmen would attach to and remove the plows from the cars. There is a thread in the Archives on conduit operations, check it out. I'm not going to repost it here.
We had a friend over last night who advised me that my "temporary
internet files" were taking up space on my computer. She had me delete all the files in that folder and now all of my cookies are gone.
I don't have my name auomatically inserted in Subtalk and in the
"post message " slots.
Is there some way of getting the "cookies" back for Subtalk?
Thank you, all you great computer wizards!
Chuck Greene
You probably got your "cookies" back by posting that message!
Next time, do it the more orthodox way:
Open Internet Options from the Tools Menu in IE (View menu in IE4) or the Internet Options item in the control panel. In the General tab, select DELETE FILES in the section under Temporary internet files (there are only three sections: Home Page, TIF and History).
Thanks, Karl & Pork., but I still don't see them back yet, even after
I posted a message. I'll keep trying.
Chuck Greene
None of them will come back through simply using the machine. As you go to various sites and interact with them, your machine will create new cookies. By having posted a message to this site, you should find that your settings for this site will have been saved and ready for you next time you go on line and visit this site.
If your cookies were sent to the recycle bin, rather than being deleted entirely, and you have not emptied your recycle bin since then, you could restore the cookies from the recylce bin.
Good luck.
>>> I still don't see them back yet, even after I posted a message. I'll keep trying. <<<
Chuck;
Check your browser settings. Your friend may have set the browser not to accept cookies.
Tom
Use Netscape instead of Bill's Browser. (You only really need I.E. for Windows Update, as Bill & Co. get upset with the Netscape users and block parts of the Windows Update site from it.)
Netscape saves its cookies in the Cookies.txt file under the user/username folder. The cache is stored in the Cache folder under the user/username folder, so you can safely delete all but the fat.db file (Netscape uses this to determine how big you want the cache folder to be). I houseclean the cache folder after net session.
DO NOT attempt to edit the cookies.txt file. You can't, except for some editing tools that fool Netscape into thinking the file hasn't been edited. If you use a regular text editor, Netscape will promptly trash it and start a new cookies.txt file, and all your cookies (like the preferences for SubTalk and BusTalk) go bye-bye.
And those are supposed to be advantages?
Even with the new NS6, I've found that IE has many more useful features that Netscape. Hatred of IE is just plain old irrational anti-MS sentiment. Same thing for Windows Update, blame NS for that, they don't support VBScript (which they can if they wanted to).
Finally, with IE, you can safely delete individual cookies and you can't in Netscape. And you're touting Netscape on the subject of cookies, where they are clearly not superior.
In fact, IE5.5 Advanced Security allows you to ban third party cookies, so no more cookies from DoubleClick.net ads.
Here's how to re-enable cookies.
Double click on the word internet or internet zone on the right edge of the status bar below (if you don't see a status bar, select it from the view menu). Then click the Default Level button, and then OK.
Now THERE is a lesson to be learned.....
"FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS CHANGE THEIR COMPUTER SETTINGS!"
You can set the amount of space that Temporary Internet Files use up on your hard drive. You can set this space to be as little as 1%. That isn't that much -- and when the 1% is being reached, it will delete the oldest stuff first. So just leave them alone. Let the computer do the "dirty work" for you.
I know someone who is ALWAYS deleting the Temporary Internet files, deleting cookies, clearing their history, etc. They are one of those hard drvie space fanatics. I think he has a 3.2gb hard drive and has maybe half of it full. But with all the deleting he does, he always seems to be having trouble everywhere he tries to go with his computer.
I say unless space is at a premium on your hard drive, let the computer decide to eliminate those T.I. Files.
10/15/2000
I wish to announce that the 2001 New York City Subways Calendar is now available at New York Transit Museum gift shop. They are available at Grand Central and at Court St. in Brooklyn. I'm not sure about the Times Square location.
Also, plans are in the works for SEPTA's Museum Gift shop to carry the calendar. This may come about in November, since the procurement process is taking place. My calendar was carried in SEPTA's gift shop a couple of years ago, but a gift shop buyer showed no interest. It seems my calendar, even though it was a popular sellout,was passed over for a mainline passenger railroad calendar. I was told the railroad calendars didn't sell well and collected dust. Hopefully the new buyer did good and the calendar will show it's face in Philly once again !
Bill "Newkirk"
I have seen Bill's calendar on sale at Penn Books and it is top notch as usual!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Just got my calendar last week in the mail. Great job as usual, thanks for your efforts, Bill!!!
10/15/2000
Thank you Steve Hoskins and Kevin Walsh.
Bill "Newkirk"
I plan to grab a copy while in the city next week.
One very distinct memory of mine from the 1950's is the light problems with the R-10's. I lived on a BMT line so I did not get to ride the R-10's that much. Every time I rode one there seemed to be interior light problems. Each car would have a number of flourescent lights that were not completely lit. The light tube would be lit on one end but dark on the other. There seemed to be five or six lights like that in each car.
The cars were still relatively new so age shouldn't have been the problem. Since this was one of the first subway car models with that type of lighting. were they still working out the bugs of flourescent lighting in train service? When the R-16's came along, their lights seemed to be fine!
Early subway car fluorescent lighting used what's called a "Polarity Reverser". Every few minutes, one would hear a "click," and the polarity in the tubes would reverse, thus spreading the fluorescent gases evenly in the tubes. If the reverser didn't work, eventually the gases would coalesce at one end of the tubes, causing the other end to be dim and appear purple.
Present-day subway car fluorescent lighting doesn't need the polarity reverser. The only subway cars that still have the reverser are the R-33S/R-36 series (and one R-33S -- 9337? -- doesn't have it anymore).
David
9336 is the one with the newer lighting.
Back in the days before the 'inverter ballast', the condition you described was fairly common. In order to insure that fluorescent tubes burnt evenly, a device known as a 'Polarity Reverser' was used. This device was simply a DPDT switch hooked to a timer. After a pre-determined time, the polarity reverser would switch the (+) and (-) on all fluorescent tubes. This would insure that they would darken from both ends at the same rate.
Unfortunately, in those days, the polarity reverser was not frequently checked and largely went un-maintained. I can't say whether the R-10 polarity reverser was more prone to failure than its successors or if it was just the difference in the maintenance shops that accounted for what you observed.
The change-over to inverted ballasts has eliminated the need for polarity reversers. Currently, the only cars in the NYCT fleet using them are the Redbirds with 600V lighting like the #7 cars and the R-21 work motors,
For the benefit of the technically challenged... what's an "inverter ballast"?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
An inverter ballast (for the technically challanged) is a combination of an inverter which takes battery voltage (36V) DC and converts it to AC (roughly 1.5 KHZ) via a solid state circuit. The Ballast is a transformer as is found in virtually all home fluorescent fixtures. It takes the AC voltage from the inverter and raises it to a level where it can ionize the gas in the fluorescent tube.
The major disadvantage of this system is that you need one inverter ballast for every one or two fluorescent tubes. Naturally, this is considerably more expensive than the old system.
The major advantage of this system is that since the lights operate off battery voltage, the lights do not go off when the train goes over a 3rd rail gap. Also, for the same reason, any light(s) can be designated as emergency lights.
I remember years agow when lights going "off" when trains switched tracks or lost contact with 3rd rails was a common occurance. The only cars I know which still do this run on the 7 line, which I've read in other posts in this thread use a different type of mechanism.
From what you said I would assume that the R-16 should have been prone to the same type of lighting problem as the R-10.
The difference must have been in the maintenance shop, and the fact that the R-16 was a newer model
It would also sound like I should have a "polarity reverser" on my workbench light since I have to replace tubes frequently.
Did the "inverter ballast" have anything to do with the elimination of the "starter" in flourescent lighting?
Your workbench fluorescent fixture doesn't need a polarity reverser unless you are using DC to light the fixture (not likely). As far as the R-16 vs the R-10 is concerned, I think it was a combination of the maintenance practice and the ease of maintenance of the R-16 lighting components. I think you can also credit technilogical improvements on the R-16 over the R-10. The porarity reverser on the R-16 was built by Ward-Leonard. I can't find documentation on the R-10 unit.
I thought I had the answer to the short life of my flourescent tubes, but I guess not. I don't understand why they have such a short life span. They seem to last forever in our bathroom lighting. Incidentally the bathroom lights still have "starters".
No, it is AC. The only DC I use is to test H0 engines.
While everyone else is slamming the R-16 as being junk, we can always say that they had good lighting!:-)
The bathroom light is probably used a lot less than the workshop unless you have a large family (or my wife is using your shower). I have the same problem in my basement where certain fluorescent lights (the ones hardest to reach) seem to have the shortest life-span. The fluorescent lights over my countertop in the kitchen, burns nearly 24 hrs/day and seems to last forever. Go figure.
The fluorescent lights over my countertop in the kitchen, burns nearly 24 hrs/day and seems to last forever.
I remember my father telling me (40 years ago) that flourescent lighting is most efficient when it is left on continuously, both because the starter takes the greatest amount of energy (running the light takes comparatively little) and because the gases, once energized, are actually at their most stable. Any thoughts as to the accuracy of those statements?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> flourescent lighting is most efficient when it is left on continuously, both because the starter takes the greatest amount of energy (running the light takes comparatively little) and because the gases, once energized, are actually at their most stable. <<<
This is probably true to some extent. The same thing can be said about computers, television sets and automobiles. Where the balance between leaving a flourescent light on rather than turning it off and on depends upon the cost of the lamp and the cost of electricity. I do not know, but seriously doubt that if you were going on a two month vacation, it would be cost effective to leave the light on. On the other hand if you were leaving a room and were going to return within ten minutes, it probably would be cost effective to leave the light on.
With automobiles, I will usually turn off the ignition when waiting for a freight train to cross a grade crossing with an expected wait in excess of two minutes, but in Japan I noticed drivers turning off their ignitions at urban intersections when the traffic signal was red.
Tom
...but in Japan I noticed drivers turning off their ignitions at urban intersections when the traffic signal was red.
Perhaps that's because gas costs five times as much over there?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Perhaps that's because gas costs five times as much over there? <<<
That begs the real question of whether you burn more gasoline by idling 40 seconds or restarting the car.
Tom
A number of years back Car and Driver answered that question; I don't recall the exact answer, but it was somewhere in the 15-20 second range for the then-current 4 cylinder engines. The added wear and tear on the motor was deemed to be the real cost, making it not worthwhile. Perhaps with the fuel price differential in Japan the overall equation makes sense, I don't know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We have digressed from the R-10 lights and it is probably my fault, but I want to set the record straight. The tubes that I have to replace frequently are four footers (two of them in a one fixture over the workbench). The bathroom flourescents are shorter tubes, two of them are almost five years old, and the other is even older.
I'm sorry that I caused this thread to get so far off topic.
Here's one for you: you know those incandescent bulbs with the heavy-duty filaments for use with ceiling fans and garage door openers? I tried those with our door opener, and one would last for maybe 9 months. The door opener now has regular old 60-watt bulbs, and they've been in there for over three years now.
P. S. IMHO there has been very little R-16 bashing, if any. I'm not in a position to pass judgment on them, since I rode on them only twice.
Larger flourescent light bulbs usually have longer lifespans than a smaller desktop bulb would.
I had a similar problem with an incandescent fixture in my front hallway. I'd put a fresh 40W bulb in, and it almost always lasted no more than 3-4 weeks. I finally bought an 11W compact flourescent in 1998, and the sucker is still going strong.
I've outfitted my entire house with compact flourescents. Boston Edison, our local electric company, provides a subsidy for their purchase (about $1-2/bulb and $8 for a torchiere!). My electric bill
is down about $10-15/month -- a nice savings! And the bulbs are
guaranteed for 10,000 hours.
[ON TOPIC] I've noticed a lot more subway stations use them for
emergency exit sign lights.
Good thing you added that last line, Todd. The thought police ain't kidding around.
I think the polarity reverser was an add-on for the R-10s.
I should emphasize "I think". Based on a fuzzy recollection.
I know of one guy who could answer the question for certain, but
he doesn't have a computer or inet connection. Perhaps one of the
CI group could relay the question and answer.
I see the old station house has been removed at Atlantic and Flatbush. Is it supposed to be restored and returned there?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I just posted here as well as other SubTalkers that the top half the IRT headhouse is at Flatbush and Pacific St. The B41 and B67 bus stop is in front of it..
3TM
As a baseball fan I couldn't help getting my mind jogged by the title "Atlantic and Flatbush". That was where Walter O'Malley wanted to build his new downtown stadium in order to keep the Dodgers in Brooklyn 43 years ago. I was wondering what is there now. Has the area been upgraded? Is it a decent area for business, residences sor both? Robert Moses wanted to build a new stadium in Flushing Meadows, Queens, which eventually became Shea Stadium. O'Malley said if he played in Queens, he couldn't call them the Brooklyn Dodgers anymore, and he fled out here where his old team in a chronic disgrace while the Mets, created in 1962, could go to the World Series.
Well, the LA Dodgers aren't quite a chronic disgrace. There were those World Series appearances in 59, 63, 65, 74, 77, 78, 81, 88 with wins in 63, 81 and 88, and the Dodgers are usually in contention. They were the class of the NL from the mid 60s right through the late 80s...
www.forgotten-ny.com
That was then and now is now, and they are a pathetic, overpaid, under-achieving lot. And it won't get better any time soon.
They also made it to the 1966 World Series, getting swept by the Orioles in four straight. Sandy Koufax retired a month later.
Not to mention 1966 vs the Orioles with another win that year.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The Dodgers lost the World Series in four straight to the Orioles in 1966. They were shut out in three of the four games by the Baby Birds. IIRC, the second game was the last game of Sandy Koufax's brilliant career, when the O's won 6-0.
You're a fan, that's for sure. Jim Palmer was the winning pitcher that day, and Willie Davis dropped two fly balls in a row in the, I believe, fourth inning.
Yep, and he also committed a throwing error after dropping the second one. He said he just plain lost the second fly ball in the sun.
Jim Palmer was the winning pitcher that day
Was his loan approved?
An Orioles fan, actually, and thus a fan for the traditional bane of the Yankees. Fred, you have my admiration for remembering the details of that World Series, which was my all-time favorite. Paul Blair and Frank Robinson each hit solo home runs to win games 3 and 4, respectively. The Yankees finished in last place that year, too. And you do know who I will be rooting for if there is a subway series, even if the Brighton D goes to Yankee Stadium and not to Shea.
Q: You're a gentleman and a scholar and an ally. Let's root the Mets all the way home to the World Championship.
A legitimate error, since I was 9 in 1966 and don't remember much of what happened then...
www.forgotten-ny.com
By this can we infer that it's gone for good?...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, don't worry. The IRT Kiosk (the proper name -- not Headhouse) is on the National Registry of Historic Places. So it won't disappear.
The restoration will allow for the structure to be used as a Transit information booth and rest area for bus customers on the old triangle block formed by Atlantic, Flatbush & 4th Avenues (that is currently being rebuilt).
BMTman
No, it's supposed to be restored and returned. As what, I'm not sure, but I think it's supposed to be a new entrance to the station. I'm sure Kevin won't agree, but I think this is a case where we should have let the existing building go. It sits on a traffic island, so it's a lousy place for a station entrance -- no pedestrians. But it really wasn't suitable for something else.
Larry, look at the previous posts on this subject. The kiosk is NOT going to be restored as a subway entrance. The NYCT is due to use it as an information booth/bus shelter ONLY.
The kiosk was originally built to connect the IRT with the Fifth Avenue Elevated line, and became obsolete once the latter was eliminated.
BMTman
It is not gone, they picked it up and moved it for restoration of the physical structure. Moved it like "this old house" type thing. I saw them setup for the move, very intresting.
These are the rest of my NYCTA gifs and some NJT GIFs.
HBLRT Car, Newark PCC, R68, R44, 1970's Scheme "Rustbird", R15 White, R12-R14 White
R32
Post-GOH
NYCTA R62A Subway Car
B'Way/7th Ave IRT
NYCTA R62A Subway Car
Lexington Ave
NYCTA R62A Subway Car
Flushing Line
NYCTA R62A Subway Car
Shuttles
NYCTA R62A Subway Car
Not In Service
The R62/R62As are in 5 Different Routes so they can be used without changing the Route Sign. P.S. the Flushing Car gets mixed in with Shuttle Cars and I forgot the R32 had been uploaded
I can't even tell some of them apart. Can they be made larger?
Use an image cutter, then transload them to your own domain, as I will do.
My worst fear (okay, maybe not my worst) has come true. On metro we are now getting homeless people going from car to car telling us about how terrible homelessness is and hawking thoose damn Street Wise publications. The sad part was about half the people in my car purchased one. Questions: Why in the hell would anyone buy one of thoose things?, Street Wise has been in NYC for as long as I can remember, when did it start? and The guy seemed to have some sort of badge on, is this legal?
Panhandling and solicitation are prohibited on Metro property. If you see someone doing it, notify a police officer, station agent, or train operator immediately. I got two of them ejected yesterday.
They tend to work downtown stations on the red and blue/orange because that's where most of the tourists are -- tourists are not very likely to know it's prohibited, nor are they all that likely to report it. One of the ones I nailed, I'd used the call button in a car and the operator came on the PA immediately reminding customers that solicitors are a no-no. There was a helpful transit officer at the next station to remove and klewify the jerk.
I was about to call the TO but I was afriad I would be the one getting in trouble.
A few years ago, on a business trip to DC in November, I noticed more than the usual number of street persons on Metro trains, but hardly any hanging out in the stations. I was told that the police wouldn't allow them to panhandle at station entrances but didn't get too upset if they boarded trains with valid tickets and remained on the trains for however long they liked (apparently, operators didn't ask them to leave at terminals, etc). I thought this was odd but the explanation I got was that 'at least there's no one hassling any riders at the stations'. Fuzzy logic?
On my last trip to DC, a few weeks ago, I didn't notice any street persons at stations, on trains, etc. Either they go somewhere else in August or they've been removed once again. ?
By the way, how do these folks pass between cars? I thought the end doors were locked.
By the way, how do these folks pass between cars? I thought the end doors were locked.
The end doors are not locked (for saftey reasons), but the two i've seen just get off at the station and change cars.
Unless a passenger violates the rules, as long as they've paid their fare, they can ride all they want. Passengers only have to leave trains at terminal stations if the train relays beyond the station or is going out of service. At some stations (i.e., Shady Grove), trains usually just pull in and reverse back out, so one can just stay put.
I've heard that there's a time limit for how long you can be in the system before you get charged the maximum fare when you do exit, and something about either getting charged max fare or not being able to exit at the same station you entered without having exited/re-entered elsewhere, but I don't know this to be fact. If this is true, a homeless person getting on with the minimum $1.10 on a farecard would likely run into difficulty trying to exit after spending the whole day in the system.
You won't get into trouble for calling the TO was because you have a legitimate concern about something on the ride. OTOH, if you were calling for something unrelated to safety or conduct, you'd probably get scolded. I routinely use the TO call to report people eating or littering, which for some reason has become far more commonplace of late. I was commuting up to Shady Grove daily for a few months, and the same woman I reported over and over for eating was on there every morning chowing down, in spite of being ticketed repeatedly. Had she been discreet about it, I might not have felt compelled to rat on her; however, she was being a complete slob spilling coffee, getting bits of food everywhere, and then just dropping the wrappers on the floor. She was no homeless person, and judging by her attire and report-laden satchel, had to be literate enough to read the "it is unlawful to" signs. The last time I saw her, they actually arrested her...maybe she hadn't paid all the previous tickets or the officer who'd get on at Grosvenor every day to write her up got fed up with it. She apparently realized that I was the one who kept getting her busted, and screamed at me as they were taking her off the train about how "you racists are gonna pay!"
Go figure.
>>> There was a helpful transit officer at the next station to remove and klewify the jerk. <<<
"Klewify" ?? What is that? Does the transit officer need his baton to do it?
Tom
If the person isn't doing any harm, I leave them alone, especially if they're homeless. I can't believe someone would actually go through the trouble to get them a fine or an arrest when they are harmless.
They are harmful. Allowing them to continue their crap sets a bad precedent and encourages others to do the same by which point it's out of control and nothing can be done.
Whatever you do to stop it, more power to you!
In DC it is against the law to solicit or panhandle on Metro. Period. "Personal disobedience" is not an option.
I don't care what anyone else's story is as long as they obey the rules and don't foul the ride for the rest of us. If they cross the line, they are fare game for scorn and penalty (if not prosecution). The rules are clearly posted at every entrance and in every car on the system. Read and comply or be busted. Ignorance is not an excuse. The majority of riders here concur and support that.
I have added my R33/36 in both ML & WF versions,the R1-9,and the R40 Slant for the N Train.
Very nice. Could you make an R16 one by any chance?
Got It
Hi, there. For the next two weekends (10-13/10-16, 10-20/1023) the "J" will not stop at three stations Queensbound. Also, the Jamaica to Canal/ Canal to Chambers St. is in effect.
Two years ago when MTH announced their first subway model, the R-42, I got my hopes up that we might expect some of the real old stuff to be modeled. I have come to the conclusion that they will never offer,
BU's - They are too old, no one remembers them and as a result they would have poor sales.
Triplex - They are sort of old too, and are articulated which might cause problems although Lionel had no problems with their Flying Yankee.
Multi's - Same articulated problem!
BMT Standard - Modeling a 67'car in 0 Gauge would be a bear. The car's design restricts it from being shortened for modeling purposes.
LO-V's & HI-V's - They are too old too, same problem as the BU's!
C & Q Type - UGH!!!
Anyone else have similar thoughts?
I'd still like to see NYCT locos like the R-77 or (heaven forbid) #5 or 6
Now you're talking. Do you suppose maybe someone would produce an O-Scale Version of the R-68?
-Stef
Do you suppose maybe someone would produce an O-Scale Version of the R-68?
No hobby shop would stock them. In retail, moving merchandise through quickly is the secret to success, and as we all know the hippos move too slow :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
CHEAP SHOT
You're absolutely correct! (But I just couldn't resist...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A decent tinplate version of a 4-wheel GE switcher would be of great interest to me in light of the fact I own a real one. BTW, Dude, What exactly is an R-77
R-77 is a GE locomotive used by NYCT. It was built in 1983. NYCT has 20 of them from 0L883 through 0L902. Each cost $670,000. There was also an R-77E which looked the same but was designed to operate on 3rd rail current. The most recent version is the R-120 of which there are 7 units.
Ah, SL50's?
Hey, I'd pay to see a descent version of the GE 50-tonners in SBK color scheme :-). I think that'd be a BIG seller.
BMTman
Well, I guess the'd sell at least two of them....
Yeah, to you and me ;-)
BMTman
R-77 is a GE locomotive used by NYCT. It was built in 1983. NYCT has 20 of them from 0L883 through 0L902. Each cost $670,000. There was also an R-77E which looked the same but was designed to operate on 3rd rail current. The most recent version is the R-120 of which there are 7 units.
BTW: NYCT had 2 4-wheel locos (#10 & 11)
I haven't been on the J in Manhattan in a long Time. However, I rode the R to Canal, and I walked thru the Canal platform. It looks horrible. So horrible that the J's don't come thru there. Here is a Question, what did RTO do with the J in this situation?
I sure miss the J. Soon I will have a half day in skool and I will do a Refresher course. I guess I have been so obsessed with the A Division, I have forgotten the B Division lines I love the most. The J, and most of all, The F!!
J trains still stop at Canal Street 24 hours a day. You must've gone to the wrong platform and hit the old Manhattan Bridge plat.
The J/M/Z platform runs paralell to the R platform at Canal and are connected by the once (and hopefully future) N/Q Broadway express platform. It's in mid-rehab right now but still looks pretty awful. On the other hand, it has the unique quality, like Mammoth Cave or Carlsbad Caverns, of staying incredibly cool during the summer without benefit of air-conditioning. If only they could figure out how to do that at Union Square or Grand Central...
As far as the Canal Street J/M/Z platform, the downtown side was rehabbed about 18 months ago and looks pretty nice. The Willie B-bound side is still in its old rotten condition, supposedly because the MTA plans to shut down that side and only use the two westernmost tracks between Bowery and Chambers Street.
[supposedly because the MTA plans to shut down that side and only use the two westernmost tracks between Bowery and Chambers Street. ]
It's positively MTA's intent. Contract # C34572.
Arti
They also haven't opened the direct passage from the N/Q to the Willy B side, forcing people to walk all the way around. Sometimes, you see the wooden barricades broken open, suggesting that others have gotten fed up and decided to open the passage themselves.
I have really never ridden the Subway on Saturday or Sunday. This Saturday will be my first time in Ages!!!, because I am going to the Metro-North Open house. However, for the past weeks I have been keeping up with G.O.'s in the Subway for my burger flippin Co workers. thats what I hate about my McDonalds co workers. They know I am a Train expert(somewhat) and they don't ask me but they try to hide it when they are talking about Trains. All I did to jump in the conversation was when I heard them say R and Continental avenue at the Same time. Anyway the reason I thought Trains were going local, because I read the Website and they always talkin about Trains skippin stops. like for example they would say 4 Trains go express going from GCT to 125. For service to these Stations take a Downtown 4 or 6. Since when is the 4 on the local track? Also on the 6 Trains local track at 125 going downtown it says 6 to Brook
4 trains run local during overnight hours. However when a G.O. is in effect in one direction say northbound on the express track from GCT to 125, northbound 4/5/6 will go express and the southbound 4/5/6 will go local from 125 to 42 to compensate for the suspension of northbound local service.
I have really never ridden the Subway on Saturday or Sunday. This Saturday will be my first time in Ages!!!, because I am going to the Metro-North Open house. However, for the past weeks I have been keeping up with G.O.'s in the Subway for my burger flippin Co workers. thats what I hate about my McDonalds co workers. They know I am a Train expert(somewhat) and they don't ask me but they try to hide it when they are talking about Trains. All I did to jump in the conversation was when I heard them say R and Continental avenue at the Same time. Anyway the reason I thought Trains were going local, because I read the Website and they always talkin about Trains skippin stops. like for example they would say 4 Trains go express going from GCT to 125. For service to these Stations take a Downtown 4 or 6. Since when is the 4 on the local track? Also on the 6 Trains local track at 125 going downtown it says 6 to Brooklyn bridge. Late nights 4 to brooklyn stops here. How does the 4 stop on the local at 125 if there are no connections until after 125th? How I know that is because of Peter Dougherty's Tracks of the New York City Subway.
Can someone explain this?
On routes with weekday express service, the NORMAL weekend service patterns are as follows:
#1: All stops
#2: Express in Manhattan
#4: Express in Manhattan, Express in Brooklyn
#5: Local in Bronx; Express in Manhattan
#6: Local
#7: Local
A: Express in Manhattan; Express in Brooklyn
B: Express in Manhattan
D: Express in Manhattan; Local in Bronx
E: Express in Queens (Queens Plaza to Continental)
F: Express in Queens (Queens Plaza to Continental)
J: All Stops
N: Local
Q: No service (use D and/or B)
4 is local at night, if the GO goes the whole weekend it includes the night. E and Fs, for example, run local at night, and that's why the posting says E F R Jamaica bound trains run express.
BTW: Often, on sundays, Es and Fs will run express on the local track from 71 to Roosevelt, in both directions, around 1PM.
I'm sure that once the 63rd St. connector is completed, there won't be as many diversions on the Queens line.
The No.4 does make ALL LOCAL stops during Late Night. I do know about the G.O your talking about which will be in Effect all Weekend long for this weekend.
There will be No Uptown Local service from Grand Central to 125 St from 10PM Friday to 5AM Monday
NO.6 Trains will run Express from GC TO 125 St ALL WEEKEND
NO. 4 Trains will run EXPRESS from GC to 125 St Late Nights during the weekend
About the signs on the Downtown Platfrom at 125 St its wrong the No.4 comes in on the Downtown Express side of 125 St but goes local.
There is no way for a Downtown No.4 to come into 125 St on the No.6 side of the platform.
Every time I get on an F during the weekend, it's running local.
I will be going. I will be wearing one of those Train shirts with the Train in Big letters. A New York City Subway line that runs on Queens Boulevard except the F. I don't wanna tell because I wanna surprise some1. Anyway I will see anyone going, there!
Layta,
Paul
Hey, P.S. How often does that bus run between CH station and the Facility? Would it be a good idea to catch the 8:54 out of Grand Central Terminal and it arrives at 9:43? or should I take a Earlier one?
Last year they had numerous busses running from the station to the yard. It takes only a few minutes (basically just crossing over the tracks !!! The busses leave as soon as the are filled !!
Enjoy it !!
If it is like last year, the buses do not run on a schedule. Whenever they feel there are enough people on it, it goes. I was on one with 5 people >G<.
Both days I didn't have to wait more then a few mintues before the bus left. I won't be going this year, got to work.
My trip home invilved Train 56, the Vermonter to New Haven from 30th St. Airport
My train arrived 2 minutes late at Gate 3. It had the baggage car on the rear and it had NO CAB CAR so I took a seat in the first car. Has Amtrak abandonned the cab cars?
My goal was to photograph interlocking towers and untill Trenton I was quite sucessful. Then at Trenton some jerks got on and took 3 of the 4 seats I had staked out. Who uses the Vermonter for Trenton to NYC? What jerks. Also b4 they sat down an NJT MU blocked my shot of FAIR.
Track 2 was out of service so we had to use Track 3 from FAIR (extended limits) all the way to LINCOLN so I went from a trackside to a lineside seat. I saw the wacked out NJT wire inspection car. It is the same make as the Amtrak cars, but it dark yellow w/ disco striping. I only managed a crappy shot. The Secaucas connection is comming along as is that new station near LANE interlocking. I also saw that electricifacation wires extended up the Raratan line connection at HUNTER. Are they going to electrify that line? I also noticed that Amtrak interlocking signals B/T HUDSON and A all have the C indication (clear to next interlocking) because wayside signals were removed.
At Penn our train was filled to capacity (WHO THE HECK GOES TO VERMONT ON A SUNDAY) so no lineside towers on the new Haven leg. Since I traveled the line on Wensday, MNRR has taken track 4 out of service and installed the platform bridges. I could not determine why. I also noticed that Between Stamford and SHELL there are 2 interlockings and B/T Brdgeton and New Haven there are 2 interlockings, but B/T Stamford and Bridgeton there is only 1. Does this lead to delays?
Also I shot an HHP-8 in Penn Station.
That's my trip. Please answer the questions marked with a ?.
You stated: "Then at Trenton some jerks got on and took 3 of the 4 seats that I had staked out....they.....blocked my shot at FAIR." I don't get that statement. How many seats did you pay for? Were these "jerks" supposed to stand and/or have to split up their group? How were they supposed to know that someone (you) wanted to take pics from the window? If you were on a fan trip that would be another matter, but us railfans have to realise this: the others on the train should not have to be inconvenienced by us. Transit (local/regional/AMTRAK) systems do not operate to entertain us rail fans! This is how us railfans get bad reputations.
They didn't block my shot of FAIR. An NJT MU pulled out, stopped, waited, then pulled out as we pulled out thus blocking my perfect shot of FAIR. The ladies blocked my shot of UNION, NASSAU, LINCOLN and MILLHAM. They were using the Vermonter to go to New York from Trenton! That's what NE Direct is for or NJT. That's why they were jerks. Also people are not suposted to know that there are seats way up in the first car and Amtrak is suposted to be unpopular. I don't know how I can replace these photo opps. Most times when I am comming home it is 5-7 PM and pitch black. I rarely head north on the NEC. They set my tower documentation back MONTHS!
My train on Wensday was vacent. I had 2 seats and a handicapped section in the first car all to my self for the purposes of railfanning. Unfortunitly the sun set somewhere near Bridgeport.
I bet that they didn't even know it was the Vermonter. Nobody thinks of train names or where they go anymore. They just ask "When is the next train to X?" and get on.
Speaking of names, what happened to the 'Montrealer' and 'Broadway Limited'?
'Montrealer' was the old name of the Vermonter until through train service to Montreal was suspended. When Amtrak wanted to eliminate the dining car and full sleeper service from its NY-Chicago train they changed the name too (for some reason). So the Broadway lost most of its Heritage Equipment and became the Three Rivers. I rode on the Bway in 1994 and even ate breakfast on it. Does anybody want to touch me?
BTW my last big rail/transit blitz was in 1994 so I have stuff from 1994 and 1999 on. It makes for an interesting comparason.
When Amtrak wanted to eliminate the dining car and full sleeper service from its NY-Chicago train they changed the name too (for some reason).
The reason was that Amtrak officials at the time wanted to promote it as a NY-Pittsburgh train. It had already been a far cry from the spirit of the Broadway Limited in terms of quality and popularity of service anyway. This was the same time Amtrak was attempting to hang Pennsylvania out to dry entirely, until they were able to extort enough ransom from Governor Ridge and the good people of the Commonwealth.
The main contenders include:
1) NJT Raratan line
2) Amtrak Springfield Line
3) CDOT Danbury Line
4) RFP line from DC to Richmond Va.
I'd go with 4 because Va. really wants to be part of the North East corridor and not some "rebel" southern hick state. Plue Amtrak could move its Silver Service power change from Philly to Richmond.
Va. really wants to be part of the North East corridor and not some "rebel" southern hick state.
Watch the flamage, Mike. Richmond was the capital of my country during the War of Northern Aggression, and we Southerners are still a proud bunch. The only folks in Virginia who want to be part of the northeast corridor are the Yankee carpetbaggers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow, I think that was the first correct usage of Carpetbagger on this message board.
I do not think that just because you are on the North-East corridor, you are part of the North-East. NEC can simply mean of all the corridors this one is located North and East of all other corridors.
How southern is VA? Can you rank it on a scale from Connecticut to Mississippi (most northern and most southern). I thought that suburban sprall around DC and the RFP and that mail order mecca of Roanoke.
Virginia is truly a Southern state, even in the areas close to D.C. (although the Yankee influence has been felt in some parts). I lived down the Peninsula from Richmond for a long time and my girlfriend (now my wife) lived a bit farther down in the Tidewater for a couple of years, and that part of the state hasn't changed much in the last half-century. Out in the Shenandoah Mountains it's still Southern too - our younger daughter went to college in Staunton the past four years - and the area of Manassas where our older son's college roommate lives still clings to its Southern roots. No, it's not the same type of Southern culture as Mississippi, but it never was. In many respects, my beloved North Carolina is the least "Southern" of all; it had a lot more in common with New England (other than the big cities such as Boston) than it did with its neighbors during the Late Unpleasantness. But its loyalty to the Southern cause was never questioned once it made the commitment.
Back to your question: today I would rank Virginia as more "Southern" than much of Georgia or North Carolina, certainly more so than Maryland, and less "Southern" than the states of the Deep South. It has kept the civility and gentility of traditional Southern culture while embracing the modern world.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I know this is not really related to transit, but it does speak to the willingness of our citizens to be told what their place in society is, which relates to the transit-is-only-for-losers concept. I know this is stretching it, but I beg you please not to killfile me.]
When I lived in the Washington Metropolitan Area, a friend I made there, who happened to be a Virginian, told me that the main difference between northerners and southerners was that southerners have a "sense of place" which northerners do not possess. In other words, many Virginians will call themselves "Virginians" while I, a "Pennsylvanian," would seldom refer to myself as such. Nor would I ever feel compelled to call myself a "northerner." The first time I heard anyone say "northerner" was when I was in college in Salisbury, NC. (I suspect you are familiar with the institution since you mention "my beloved North Carolina.")
I couldn't help but show my northern (note the small-case "n") roots, I guess. And though I can respect a man's strong affinity to his homeland, whether he views that "homeland" as his town, county, state, or country, the fact that the Southern "way-of-life" was built on a foundation of slave-labor, which reverberates today, prevents me from fully embracing Southern Culture. (And I know The North also profitted from the institution too, but it was primarily for the benefit of Southern landowners.)
Also, The South had an entrenched agricultural aristocracy, which ran counter to the American Spirit of entrepreneurship and self-improvement. It was too much like England, which to this day has profound national pride, and IMO, a still-too-strong sense of "class." [If you are left-leaning you might argue that today we have a new "corporate aristocracy," which does the very same thing. If you are rightist, you probably think the new aristocracy is the government.]
In my view, the most important result of our rebellion against Great Britain was the renunciation of class barriers based on family affiliation. Since the industrial revolution, which the Civil War precursed, the aristocracy here in the U.S. has shifted from familial to corporate, and by extension, to governmental. That this is entirely good is debatable, but what is not debatable is the fact that anyone has an opportunity to improve their lot, though some of those opportunities are easier to find for some people than others (and that's a whole other off-topic discussion).
In the 1770's, the citizens of America felt powerless, their lives and most of their purses controlled by a body over which they had absolutely no influence. The candidacies of people like John McCain (a most infuriatingly anti-rail bloke, I may add) and Ralph Nader speaks to many of these same feelings of powerlessness experienced by many Americans today. Except now these econommic and political barriers are far less defined by geography.
the main difference between northerners and southerners was that southerners have a "sense of place" which northerners do not possess.
Excuse me! I have a very strong sence of place. I have so much New Jersey pride its comming out my eyeballs. Its part due to the fact that I am a geography buff and it is also the best defence to those anti-NJ people ::coughnewyorkerscough:: I also have Camden County Pride and when around home, Haddonfield Pride. But I guess you are right. My friends consider it quite odd when I am going on and on about how great my area is and how other areas suck (example, Burlington County). When I ask them if they do not have town pride they give me a look.
PS: I can't remember if my town's arch enemy is Collingswood or Hi-Nella
PS: I can't remember if my town's arch enemy is Collingswood or Hi-Nella
Haddonfield and Collingswood were big rivals when I was a kid. Haddon Township (Westmont) didn't have a high school, and the kids had their choice of H and C. The Public Service Coordinated Transport Camden-Haddonfield trackless trolley line ran on Haddon Ave through Colls and Westmont. The PRSL Camden-Atlantic City line had stations in Collingswood, Westmont and Haddonfield.
Haddonfield and Haddon Heights also have a Thanksgiving Day football rivalry dating back (IIRC) to the 1890's. The trolley from Camden to Clementon went through Haddon Heights and Hi Nella.
My Lost Haddonfield books says it was a tracked Trolley. It went up Tanner St. then made a right on kings, then the guy reversed down kings to Potter St. where the guy too a break and then reversed again down kings with a right on to Haddon to go back to Camden. Don't you miss convienent public transportation?
When I lived in Westmont it was a trackless trolley. When my Dad was a teenager in Collingswood it was a tracked trolley.
An alternate trackless route left Haddon Ave at Maple Ave, went to Grove Street, then Kings Highway. The trolley wires ended just a few feet into Maple; the buses had an auxiliary internal combustion engine for Maple/Grove/Kings. Coming back, the driver got out and raised the poles to the wires just prior to entering Haddon Ave.
And though I can respect a man's strong affinity to his homeland, whether he views that "homeland" as his town, county, state, or country, the fact that the Southern "way-of-life" was built on a foundation of slave-labor, which reverberates today, prevents me from fully embracing Southern Culture.
Speaking as someone who's never lived in the South, I find it somewhat hard to be too critical of the area when it comes to culture. Slavery was most definitely not restricted to the South in the first half-century and more of the United States. It persisted in many northern locales much longer than sometimes realized. Slaves were found in New York as late as the early 1840's, in other words less than twenty years before the outbreak of war. Other northern states kept their slaves even later, and of course that's not counting the slave-owning border states that remained loyal to the Union in the Civil War.
It is true that slave ownership was never as common in the North as it was almost anywhere in the South. While it's tempting to attribute that to northern morality, as a point of fact slavery was less suitable for the North's economic base of industries and small farms than it was for the South's large-scale agriculture.* Whether slavery would have been just as prelevant in the North had the economy been different is one of those ultimately unanswerable "what-if" questions, but the answer indeed might have been yes.
While it's also true that the North had a significant anti-slavery movement, that's an example of seeking the right goals for the wrong reasons. There were some anti-slavery people who indeed were motivated by genuine concern for the slaves, in particular the religious-based abolitionist movement centered in New England. But most Northerners (and Southerners too) who wanted to do away with slavery weren't really concerned with the slaves themselves; they instead were concerned with the fact that slavery morally degraded the slave owners. This was similar to the movement in Victorian England to abolish public hangings - no one was worried about the condemned prisoners, they'd swing no matter what, but people realized that hooting and hollering at executions debased the audiences.
Finally, there is substantial evidence that the Civil War itself had the abolition of slavery as just one of its motivations, and probably not one of the main ones. Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation - essentially a powerless document - primarily because he wanted to curry the favor of the European nations. Once again, the right result was achieved, but the motives weren't what they may seem today.
* = indeed, slave ownership was never as common in the interior regions of the South where agriculture was usually at Northern scales.
Slaves were found in New York as late as the early 1840's, in other words less than twenty years before the outbreak of war.
No. The Slavery ban in New York went into effect in 1827.
Other northern states kept their slaves even later
Incorrect. New York was the last northern state (yes, not counting the borders) to have slavery.
Whether slavery would have been just as prelevant in the North had the economy been different is one of those ultimately unanswerable "what-if" questions, but the answer indeed might have been yes.
This would have been true, but not as many northern places were suited for as large scale agriculture as the south. That's why industry developed in the north.
Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation - essentially a powerless document - primarily because he wanted to curry the favor of the European nations.
It is true that the Emancipation Proclamation was nothing more than symbolic, but slavery was banned after the war. It's likely that Lincoln did not go all the way to ban slavery in the Union at the time because it might alienate the border states (and if MD seceded, DC would be surrounded by the CSA!).
Slaves were found in New York as late as the early 1840's, in other words less than twenty years before the outbreak of war.
No. The Slavery ban in New York went into effect in 1827.
The ban was never seriously enforced. Slaves were still held into the 1840s, including (it is alleged) by one of the governors during that time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> The ban was never seriously enforced. Slaves were still held into the 1840s <<<
As late as 1857, the Dred Scott case sanctioned slave owners bringing their "property" into free states, so some slaves could be seen in the north right up to the Civil War, and of course the Emancipation Proclamation did not free any slaves who were in the north, only those "within the rebellious states", so it was not till the end of the Civil War, that all slaves in New York were set free.
Tom.
In the 1770's, the citizens of America felt powerless, their lives and most of their purses controlled by a body over which they had absolutely no influence.
As did the citizens of the Confederacy in 1861. That is why we exercized our constitutional right to secession - because the US Congress was controlled by those whose economic interests ran counter to ours.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did not the southern states have elected representatives in the United States Congress prior to secession? If Congress, as a law-making body, deemed it necessary to limit the power of the states with respect to issues such as slavery, for example, and the courts upheld such legislation, then the southern states should have accepted the outcome of the votes in a congress of which they were certainly a part. There is a big difference between the having the opportunity to legislatively oppose the will of the majority of the Union, as The South did before the Civil War, and not having that opportunity, as the colonists did not in the 1770s. Call me a Federalist, but in my view, if states enact laws which hinder the right of any man to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, the U.S. Congress is obligated to intervene. Sorry, but the federal government is sometimes the last hope for the oppressed, and that's the way it should be.
Sorry, I deleted the "railroad reference" in an edit. I was going to mention that both the southern aristocracy's economy and the industrial economy, during which railroading had its heyday, eventually died out, despite any "good" traditions within each which may have been worth fighting for.
>>> Call me a Federalist, but in my view, if states enact laws which hinder the right of any man to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, the U.S. Congress is obligated to intervene. <<<
That's hardly a Federalist viewpoint, more like a centralist view. Keep in mind that the founders of the United States, considered it as a federation of sovereign states with very limited powers given to the federal government, similar to the present day EU in Europe. It was the War Between the States, (hardly a Civil War as was the Russian revolution or Spain in the ‘30s) which determined that United States was more than a voluntary federation of individual States. It was the post war 14th Amendment which brought the Bill of Rights to the individual states.
Tom
Hey, I remember on my PRR talk list someone talking about how several high spots on the Federal government were filled with railroad men at the time of the Civil War. I think that a PRR guy was secritary of defence. Anyway they puched for the way so that they could A get more traffic, B run the military railroads and C expand southward. I'm sorry, but I forget the exact details, but it was something like RR's pushed for war to gain profits etc.
that a PRR guy was secritary of defence.
That's a post-1949 term. It was called the Secretary of War back then.
That's quite a moral lens you are looking through there Mouse. To deny that the war was about slavery is quite a stretch. Were there other issues? Sure. But you cannot leave that one out.
From the Southern perspective, the primary issue was economic - tariffs, to be precise. The South wished to purchase certain goods (industrial weaving looms, to cite the most-frequent example) from overseas (England, primarily) because they were less expensive and higher quality, and then export the finished goods. Yankee manufacturers saw this is a threat to their interests, and rammed through very high tariffs on this class of imported goods, which made it significantly more expensive for Southerners to purchase this equipment, forcing them to either purchase inferior-quality (but duty-free) looms from Yankee manufacturers or to export the raw materials rather than the finished product.
Slavery was a dying institution, even in the South. Economically it was making much less sense than it once had, and experiments with industrial slavery (primarily in the textile industry) were not economically successful either. Other sources of cheap labor were available, thanks to immigration; technological advances in agriculture were reducing the level of unskilled workers required; household servants were becoming a luxury in all but the wealthiest homes. Laws mandating significant improvements in the treatment of slaves were already on the books in most of the South by 1855 which further contributed to the economic costs of slave-keeping - workers for hire weren't nearly as well protected. And slaves had to be fed, regardless of whether or not there was work to do, while employees could simply be laid off with no further cost to the employer. The "peculiar institution" would have collapsed by 1885 if not sooner because of these factors. Slavery was a "popular" issue among Northern moralists but it was not a significant factor, on either side, in the war.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Slavery was a dying institution, even in the South.)
My understanding is that slavery had been a dying institution, leading many pragmatic nothern moralists like Abraham Lincoln to conclude that it would ebb away. But then the cotton gin made plantation agriculture highly profitable again -- if cheap labor was available to pick in in the fields -- and slavery had a revival.
Most historians believe slavery was the key issue in the war. Of course, a few decades later cotton picking was also mechanized, driving sothern Blacks out of the south an into Northern cities (with a little push and a couple of bus tickets from Southern states unintersted in helping them). That would have brought slavery down in any event. And it is true that slavery ended in most places in the world without a civil war. But this was unknown at the time.
But then the cotton gin made plantation agriculture highly profitable again -- if cheap labor was available to pick in the fields -- and slavery had a revival.
The revival was very small, lasting only a couple of years, before the decline set in again at a much steeper rate. Plantation agriculture (especially cotton) really only existed in the Deep South by that time - North Carolina and Virginia's tobacco industry was in decline from 1840-1860 (really until 1875, with the development of flue-cured tobacco) - so plantation agriculture didn't represent a significant portion of the economy any more. Sharecroppers and small farms were the rule. In North Carolina, even the furniture industry was bigger than many crops, and it didn't boom until the rebuilding of the railroads after the War.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But then the cotton gin made plantation agriculture highly profitable again
Could be, but it made horrible martinis.
Slavery was a dying institution, even in the South. Economically it was making much less sense than it once had ... The "peculiar institution" would have collapsed by 1885 if not sooner because of these factors. Slavery was a "popular" issue among Northern moralists but it was not a significant factor, on either side, in the war.
It's worth noting that slavery in Brazil ended in 1888 without any sort of civil war. Slavery was far more important to the Brazilian economy than it was the U.S. South and was much more common - more than 80% of the slaves ever brought from Africa to the New World ended up in Brazil.
(As did the citizens of the Confederacy in 1861. That is why we exercized our constitutional right to secession - because the US Congress was controlled by those whose economic interests ran counter to ours.)
Based on federal funding formulas and your statement, it's time for the Northeast to secede. The south has been "paying us back" for Sherman ever since the New Deal, and as a result most older cities east of the Mississipi and north of the Mason-Dixon line look like Atlanta after it burned. While New York legislators want to run the federal government, southern legislators just try to get a good deal at its expense. Why people from New York will vote for Hillary Clinton, who would glad make the deal even worse to win on symbolism, is beyond me.
No, Northeast Corridor, in the United States, means one thing ONLY:
The section of the country from Washington, DC to Boston, MA along the eastern seaboard.
-Hank
Basically the Northeast is the "BosWash" Maegalopolis. I wouldn't even say it includes all of every state in the corridor. Certainly the western parts of Pennsylvania and New York are not the "East Coast". Bufalo and Rochester are more "midwest" than "New York."
Which is what I specified with 'eastern seaboard'
-Hank
The Northeast Corridor is defined as the area served by an electrified, multi-track rail line that is centered in New York and Philadelphia. Untill recently anybody from DC to New haven was in the corridor. Boston and Richmond had something of an "NEC applicant" status. Now that the juice flows all the way to Boston it was admitted to the NEC (like NATO) and if the wires go south to Richmond they too will be a part of the NEC. The Eastern Seaboard is all those served by the former Seaboard System RR or the Seaboard Coast Line depending on how much of a pureist one is.
BTW if you played that 80's Arcade game "Missile Defence" Richmond was one of the cities you had to protect from Russian ICMB's.
Hey, is that big elevated train shed/station still there in Richmond?
The Northeast Corridor is defined as the area served by an electrified, multi-track rail line that is centered in New York and Philadelphia.
The term "Northeast Corridor" predates the electrification by at least 65 years. The earliest usage I have seen of it (in a newspaper article dated 1868) refers specifically to the area north of Baltimore and east of York, Pennsylvania, and is not specific to the railroad. Rather, it talks about the "north-east corridor of commerce" along the wagon roads of the time. (The York Gazette, date incomplete but known to be 1868.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1868? Corridors had not even been invented yet!
>>> 1868? Corridors had not even been invented yet! <<<
From Webster's Collegiate Dictionary:
Etymology: Middle French, from Old Italian corridore, from correre to run, from Latin currere
Date: 1814
1 : a passageway (as in a hotel) into which compartments or rooms open
2 : a usually narrow passageway or route: as a : a narrow strip of land through foreign-held territory b : a restricted lane for air traffic
3 : a densely populated strip of land including two or more major cities
[the Northeast corridor stretching from Washington into New England -- S. D. Browne]
Tom
#3 is the problem. There wasn't any dencely populated stretch of land betreen 2 cities anywhere in the United States untill at least 1900 or 1920. It was all farm land. To form a corridor the "urbs" must be touching, either sub or ex. There were not even paved roads or descent railroad service. Also definition 2b clearly shows that this has been modernized a tad.
Maybe one day the definition will be that there has to be continuous dense development.
Even though lighter, it was still a corridor, and I don't see the burbs touching between Boston and New York.
Until the mid 1800s, the most important cities in the USA were Boston, New York, Washington, Trenton, Newark, Baltimore and Richmond (note that these cities are all port cities). The cities between all these developed as overnight stops for travelers between these cities. Many of them developed a larger economic base (hey! These guys need a Howard Johnson's!) and thirved on their own (such as New Haven, Providence (also a port city), White Plains, Camden, Stamford, etc. The suburbs came along when the cities got crowded, and as transportation within the cities improved. THe Northeast Corridor existed (and will continue to exist) long before there were railroads to connect them. That's where the PRR got the name from. Even with the great distances involved, approximately 2/3 of the population in the 18th and early 19th centuries lived with that area.
-Hank
Until the mid 1800s, the most important cities in the USA were Boston, New York, Washington, Trenton, Newark, Baltimore and Richmond (note that these cities are all port cities).
Interesting you mention port cities. There's an ongoing thread on misc.transport.road about why state capitals are located where they are, sometimes in what seem like unusual places. Anyway, one poster said that each state capital should be a seaport whenever possible. He said that California's capital therefore should relocate to San Jose, which borders San Francisco Bay, from inland Sacramento.
Nobody told the poor dope that the part of the bay near San Jose is shallow and unsuitable for navigation, while Sacramento is a major seaport for oceangoing ships.
(There's an ongoing thread on misc.transport.road about why state capitals are located where they are, sometimes in what seem like unusual places.)
It seems to me that state capitals tend to be located in the middle of the state, even when the largest cities are elsewhere (ie. New York). Most were cited at a time when minimizing land travel distance for those going to the capital was much more important than today. Of course, Washington DC was the middle of the country when it was sited.
To me the oddest capitals are Tallahassee and Juneau. I guess there weren't too many people living in tropical Florida and inland Alaska when those were sited.
In the 1970s a proposal to move the capital of Alaska to Willow was successfully passed.
It was killed in 1982.
I'd have to check an actual map, but I believe that 'port' in my post should be replaced with 'protected/defensable harbor. All of these cities have more of an 'inland' harbor that is not directly on the coast, IIRC.
-Hank
People who lived out in rural areas rightly felt that if the capital was in the largest city, their rural needs and vaules would be ignored. Therefore the rural legislators forced the capital to be moved to a "neutral" location. This IS the primary reason, although being at the center of things does play a part. Look at most any state and the location of the capital will usually be a mix of rural and urban. Some good examples are Trenton, Dover, Anapolis, Harrisburg and Albany.
I can tell you why Olympia is the capital of Washington. When Washington first became a state, the government was housed in Vancouver for a short time (just across the river from Portland). Vanc was obviously a bad place, being in the corner of the state. At that time, Tacoma was slated to be THE city in all of Washington (basically what Seattle is now) because that's where the NP railroad's terminus was. Seattle and Centralia (halfway between Seattle and Portland) were both considered, but in the end Olympia won out. Why? The officials were very impressed with the "hospitality" Olympia showed them - a grandiose seafood dinner and enough prostitutes for all was all it took. To this day, no major rail line passes through Olympia - the city is served by two spurs. When U.S. Highway 99 (the precursor to I-5) was built, it went via Olympia - a route 30 miles longer then the route of the original N-S trail blazed by Ezra Meeker, which passed through Tenino and Roy. In short, Olympia was and still is a bad location for a capital.
Abe
"Look at most any state and the location of the capital will usually be a mix of rural and urban. Some good examples are Trenton, Dover, Annapolis, Harrisburg and Albany."
Two more examples in your favor: Springfield, IL, and Jefferson City, MO. Both are central capitals, but also both avoid the state's largest cities (Chicago and Rockford in Illinois, Saint Louis and Kansas City for Missouri.)
You left out Philly.
I didn't intend to, but you are correct.
-Hank
However, the number 1 definition of corridor is a passageway. Therefore you not only need large cities in a close geographic area, but also easy and frequent travel between them. So much so that the cities begin to loose some of their indivuduality and merge into the larger identity of the corridor. People frequently refer to the I-whatever corridor or the Route whatever corridor. Today the Northeast Corridor is defined by a rail line. With our modern view of corridor I do not think the 1868 Northeast was anything close to a corridor.
Just because the definition is listed first doesn't make it the original definition, or even the more 'right' one. It's just listed first.
-Hank
I actually did believe that definitions were listed by most common usage/importance. It makes sence that way.
[b : a restricted lane for air traffic ]
air traffic??
Arti
neat. I had no idea the term was that old. Now, about wires, yesRichmond, and If I had any influence ALL the heavy use ex Conrail mainlines east of Harrisburg and south of Albany as well as the B&O/RDG, CNJ main
I had no idea the term was that old.
I didn't either until a year or so ago when I purchased an old Latin text (ca. 1868) authored by one of my relatives and disassembled it to repair the binding. This clipping was glued in the spine, part of the waste paper used in the binding process. Unfortunately I don't have anything close to the complete article, just a few sentences.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"War of Northern Aggression???"
Face it, us Northern Yankees won, just like the NY Yankees are going to do tomorrow!!! The slaves were freed, Jefferson Davis and all the other traitors are dead, and we are one united country again!!!
P.S. Notice my correction of Electrif"i"cation Jersey Mike?
You neglected to correct his 'Rar"i"tan'.
-Hank :)
Actually, NJT is electrifying part of its Boonton Line in preparation for the Montclair Connection. Raritan will probably stay diesel and only go to Newark or Hoboken. As for the Danbury Line, I would like to see catenary return there, but it's likely that would only happen if it had considerably more service than what it has now. They never should have taken it down. Though the NIMBY factor should be considered because the Danbury Line passes through the affluent New York suburbs of Ridgefield and Wilton, even though they use Metro-North to get to the city.
Now for Amtrak. I would like to see catenary and additional trains on both the Richmond and Springfield lines. In the case of Richmond, CSX owns the line from Washington to Richmond. There is talk of improving the speed to 110 mph on the line and extending VRE service all the way to Richmond. I'm not sure how CSX would feel about catenary on its route.
At least Amtrak owns the Springfield/Hartford line. This used to be a very popular line and was double-tracked. A couple years back, I rode the train up to Hartford and asked a conductor on the train if any improvements in service were in store for the Springfield/Hartford service considering what was happening on the shoreline to Providence and Boston. He said to forget about seeing catenary on the Springfield Line due to its many railroad crossings. He even went as far to say that Amtrak may withdraw from the Springfield line due to lack of ridership. But he did say that the line could be popular with travellers again. That was two years ago. My hope is that Amtrak realize that they have a good opportunity for improving a line that they own. Amtrak owns much of its line from Chicago to Detroit (Porter, Ind. to Kalamazoo, Mich.) and is taking steps to improve the quality of the service there. They can and should do the same from New Haven to Springfield.
He said to forget about seeing catenary on the Springfield Line due to its many railroad crossings.
What does that have to due with the price of insulators? Bridges are more of a problem for overhead catenary than grade crossings are. With the comming of catenary Amtrak could preform power changes at Springfield and CDOT could provide MU shuttle service with accross the platform transfers at New Haven instead of the legnthy power changes. Amtrak could continue to run the Vermonter and Inland route NE Direct Trains to Boston (w/ power change at Springfield) thus providing more service to Mass. Also with a power change at Mass Amtrak could make better use of the Springfield Intermodal facility.
Though the NIMBY factor should be considered because the Danbury Line passes through the affluent New York suburbs of Ridgefield and Wilton, even though they use Metro-North to get to the city.
Are not electric trains QUIETER and CLEANER than diesels?
Amtrak probbably coulds have electrified back when they did the coast, and savbed a bundlwe, but hey, it's Amtrak. They're not exactly brilliant, and they're not exactly receptive to electrics or high speed services.
Hey, don't you agree that the Springfield Line is a wonderful, beautyful, well enginered rail line. Its flat, nice sweeping curves and lots of Brownstone. The scenery includes forrests, swamps, rivers and cute little towns. Around this time of year the leaves make it look like a giant painting. I'd even rate it above the Harrisburg.
...Springfield Line is a wonderful, beautyful, well enginered rail line...I'd even rate it above the Harrisburg.
Bite your tongue, and please take a ride through Lancaster County again soon! :o)
I just did about a month ago and the best scenery is Railroad scenery. Aside from the RoW its all farms, lumber yards and fertilizer plants. The Springfield line offers more gentle curves, brick and brownstone, less rust (RoW wise), a big river and nicer forrests. Overall I think its the decrepitness of the Main Line RoW that ruins the view.
The Springfield Line is very nice in the fall. I'm going back to New York for the weekend and I'm going to see if I can take Amtrak from Hartford. I just wish Amtrak would realize they've got a good thing in the Springfield Line.
Electrics are indeed quieter and cleaner than diesels. But some people who may have friends in high places will wrongfully bitch and moan about how the construcion will make their lives a living hell. I could be wrong about that, maybe people in Ridgefield and Wilton will have no problems with Metro-North erecting wires over the Danbury tracks. I don't know for sure.
I want to see wires to Springfield just as much as you do. I don't know why my train's conductor said wires over a line with crossings can not happen. It already exists. Many of NJT and SEPTA's electric rail lines have railroad crossings on them. So there really is no excuse for Amtrak to not electrify the Inland Route and they never should have removed the second track north of New Haven. Another good thing about the Inland Route is that it's a fairly straight run from New Haven to Hartford. I don't know about the rest of the line to Springfield, but it's probably not as bad as the Shoreline Route to Providence. But there are a lot of railroad crossings on the Inland Route, especially in the towns of Wallingford and Meriden, CT. In some areas it can be as many as three crossings right next to each other. Some of those crossings can and should be removed to speed up service. High platforms and the restoration of double-track service are definite ways to speed up Inland Route service.
One thing you mentioned was that ConnDOT could offer MU shuttle service between New Haven and Springfield. They actually did do that in the 80s and early 90s with Budd SPV-2000s. Unfortunatly, they were plagued with problems and withdrawn from service. Now they run as push-pull coaches from New Haven to New London.
What should happen this time is that Amtrak should operate more through trains from Springfield to Washington or Richmond. With a few major differences: The trains should run with only a Springfield section and not be connected to another train in New Haven coming from/going to Boston and Providence. And there should be no power change in New Haven. That would be accomplished by using Flexliner MUs. Adtranz's Flexliner was tested all across America from 1996 to 1998 by Amtrak. Here is Amtrak's chance to use it in regular service. Both diesel and electric versions of the Flexliner exist and have operated in successful service for years in Denmark and Sweden. And the electric and diesel versions can and do operate together. The electric version has a top speed of 125 mph and the diesels do up to 112 mph. But I think the diesels' wheels can be geared to do 125 from New Haven to Washington so they can be sucessfully operated with the electrics. The Flexliners would be a natural for service from Springfield and Hartford to Washington and Richmond.
The line is straighter morth of Hartford aside from the bridge over the CT river. Just south of big H there is a wonderful brownstone arch viaduct and the borwnstone tunnels in Hartford (dated 1871) are also a real gem. I am sad that the great Hartford station only has a single track, but the Springfield terminal is a humming place with at least 6 tracks. Amtrak built a new intermodal terminal at Springfield (like Harrisburg's) and planned a seperate BOS-CHG Lake Shore train, but then CSX stepped in and forced Amtrak to sell it to them.
IMO, I would like to see wires go up on The Atlantic City line, plus I would like to see it double-tracked as well, but that would not happen in the near future.
Unless there are delays I don't know about the AC line is running fine with Rule 261 CTC. 15 round trips a day by 3 weekly freight runs does not justify complete double tracking. If the CMSL ran into Lindenwold that section of the line should get a second track, but for little 3 car trainsets you don't need a second track for the entire legnth. I would support extending the Atco siding through past Winslow Jct, double tracking from JORDAN to CP-JERSEY and re-installing the switches at ZOO and NORTH PHIDELPHIA so that NJT trains can run on the CSX Delair branch (formerly CR Trenton Line, formerly CR Delair Brach, formerly Zoo Siding and CR Shore Running track). Currently a siding ends at NORTH RACE (near the Cherry Hill station, but from JORDAN (Penberton IT) to somewhere near Rt. 130 CR freights share the track where they switch off the former #2 track that is now another IT. The #2 track is abandonned from the old HATCH interlocking to CP-JERSEY where CR gets one half of the Delair and NJT the other half. Before like 1994 Amtrak owned the CR route to the Delaur bridge. Well now the switches are removed and it is a dedicated freight line and NJT trains often have to wait at SHORE to get accross the NEC. If the switches were re-installed trains could be transfered over to the CSX line (there are only 6-8 trains per 24 hours) and NJT could access the NEC at North Philly via the 5 switch and the east ladder or they could go all the way to MANTUA interlocking and access the No1 track via the 229 switch and then ZOO interlocking to 30th St. I would like to see those improvements before electrifacation.
If Bill Gates wants to fork over some dough, my dream transit line is a 3rd Rail electrified line to Glassboro/Millville and a second route on the Beesley's Point sec to Winslow jct. Trains would terminate in a underground terminal in Camden next to the PATCO station and a Tunnel under the Delaware to Greenwitch yard and 30th St. station.
It's not the delays, Mike that would warrant double-tracking, but to have to wait for the other train to pass. As for electrification, the less diesel exhaust in the air the better. Otherwise, the scenery is nice. Plus I have this dream (doubt that it will ever come true) that Atlantic City could be a commuter rail hub, having lines that serve Wildwood, Cape May, and into Salem, Gloucester, and a line from A.C. to Trenton. If I was only born 100 years ago, I could have created a S.J. rail network.
Why on earth would AC be a hub? There is no room for any new commuter oriented industry. Furthermore the only RoW's that hub out from AC are the C&A main line, the old WJ&S line to Newfield and the interurban RoW to Sommers Point. The South Jersey rail system is designed to get people from New Jersey to Philly and vice versa. I would love to see Camden become a rail hub (again) or a tunnel to Pennsylvania.
When I said delays I meant one train waiting in a siding for another. I usually thought that it was times for rolling meets. How often does that suceede?
If you want a dream that will happen pray for RDC service to Cape May and restoration of service to Ocean City and Wildwood all from Lindenwold or Winslow Jct. I would also like to see Winslow Jct. become a real junction again and the double tracking from Cherry Hill to ZOO. People have complained about 20 min waits getting onto the NEC, that's the most immediate problem. Double tracking from JORDAN can open the way to service on the Pemberton Branch.
I'd say the Metro North Hudson line up to Poughkeepsie, because that has more service than any of the other routes. The electrification would also allow MN to use the diesel trains for better service to Wassaic, Danbury, Waterbury and further up the Hudson Line (Maybe even to Albany)
Metro-North to Albany? I don't think so. Albany is 150 miles north of New York City. That is not commuting distance. It would take a very long time for M-N trains to make that long of a run even if trains were express from Poughkeepsie to GCT. Better service to Waterbury should be Amtrak-type service, because Waterbury is also too far to be considered commuting distance at 89 miles from GCT. Even Wassaic is too far at 77 miles from GCT. Of all the destinations you mentioned, Danbury is by far the closest to NYC and since it does not pass through thinly populated rural areas and may still have many of its old catenary poles intact. So Danbury should be first in line for electrfication.
The NYC commuting circle extends to Port Jervis in the west, Dover Plains in the north, New Haven in the West and Trenton in the south. Don't be surprised to see NJT re-activate the DL&W Slateford Cutt-off and get people commuting in from Pennsylvania! (Or restore service on the CNJ to Easton or P'burg.)
PS: Is P'burg Pattenburg or Phillipsburg because I mean Phillipsburg.
Neither. P'burg is Pittsburgh.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Pittsburg is Steel Town, Rust Town or Respitory Disease town.
That too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, in 1950, maybe. Pittsburgh is very nice now. Nearly all of the steel mills shut down years ago.
PGH is Pittsburgh; PBG is Phillipsburg.
wayne
Why people would live in Pennsylvania or Dutchess County and commute to NYC is beyond me. It's just too far. If I lived in Trenton, I'd commute to Philadelphia only 30 miles away instead of commuting to New York 60 miles to the north. If I lived in New Haven, I'd commute to Hartford only 35 miles away instead of commuting all the way to New York, a whopping 75 miles away.
I don't care if cheap housing is their reason for moving so far away. It's not worth it to work in New York City if you must commute over an hour to get there and have to take a commuter bus or train and then an overcrowded subway just to get to work. Anyone who thinks it's worth it to commute in New York who spends two hours each way doing so, needs to have their head examined.
You usually can't choose where your job is going to be. You should live where it is convienient ot your job, not the other way around. I dare you to find a job as an advertising executive with Viacom in Philadelphia.
-Hank
[You should live where it is convienient ot your job, not the other way around.]
That's exactly my point. I just can't see moving to Bucks County or the Poconos in Pennsylvania, Mercer, Sussex or Burlington Counties in New Jersey, Litchfield or New Haven Counties in Connecticut, or Dutchess, Ulster or Sullivan Counties upstate or even the east end of Long Island, as being convienient to jobs in Manhattan.
[I dare you to find a job as an advertising executive with Viacom in Philadelphia.]
No, probably not, but I might be able to find a job as an ad executive with QVC. But I wouldn't move to Kingston or Monticello and remain with Viacom, it's way too far to commute. One hour from Manhattan to the Bronx on the #2 train is already a long trip. I can't even fathom what a two-, three-, or even four-hour commute is like.
(I just can't see moving to Bucks County or the Poconos in Pennsylvania, Mercer, Sussex or Burlington
Counties in New Jersey, Litchfield or New Haven Counties in Connecticut, or Dutchess, Ulster or Sullivan Counties upstate or
even the east end of Long Island, as being convienient to jobs in Manhattan.)
Those places are a killer for those commuting five days per week. But they work for those working from home, coming in just a couple of days per week, and able to work using their laptops and cell phones on the train. I expect we'll see more of this, thanks to the internet.
Cops and firemen live out there too. Firemen often work only two or (at most) three days per week, with shifts that start and end off peak and guaranteed parking, so they can drive in. Long shifts are less common for cops (they don't get paid to sleep in the stationhouse), but they still can work fewer than five days.
I have always tried to stay about 1/2 hour from the job. When you double or triple that you have no life !
Mr t__:^)
My old job was 1.5 to 2 hours from home by x-bus. My new job is the same time by car, but it's so dependant upon traffic, I can be here in an hour at the fastest.
-Hank
How long is too long? The answer, as to so many of life's questions, is it depends. Many factors enter into the calculation, some transit-related and some not. And because each person is different, it's very difficult to generalize.
As far as transit is concerned, I'd say that a long train (or commuter bus) ride from a starting point near your house is more tolerable than a shorter ride that requires a long drive to and from the station each day. Having to scramble for station parking each day (can you say "Ronkonkoma?") is certainly a big negative factor, as is dealing with heavy road traffic. Similarly, the shorter your subway ride on the Manhattan end, the better. And we cannot disregard the comfort factor. I find riding in the LIRR's diesel bilevel coaches, with their spacious seats, vastly more pleasant than shoehorning myself into the tiny seats on the electrics.
A whole host of factors beyond transit also merit consideration:
- Family situation. This might be the principal limit on commuting time for many people. For me, commuting two hours each way is made much more feasible and tolerable by the fact that my wife works the 3 to 11 shift, and the fact that the ankle-biters are old enough to fend for themselves. Many people obviously have greater family responsibilities and therefore have to limit their commuting time. I suppose single people are the most able of all to handle long daily commuting.
- Nature of your job. If you work long and/or unpredictable hours, commuting long distances will be a lot harder. Regular hours make it much easier to plan your daily commuting. Note, in this context, that the longest-distance commuter lines tend to have less-frequent schedules. And let's not forget the fact that the better your job may be, in terms of pay and satisfaction, will make long trips more tolerable.
- Living arrangements. This is tied in somewhat with the family factor. If you want a large house with a large yard, or want to live in an exurban or rural environment, you'll be more willing to tolerate a long trip each day than someone without these preferences.
(A whole host of factors beyond transit also merit consideration:
- Family situation. This might be the principal limit on commuting time for many people. For me, commuting two hours each
way is made much more feasible and tolerable by the fact that my wife works the 3 to 11 shift, and the fact that the ankle-biters
are old enough to fend for themselves. Many people obviously have greater family responsibilities and therefore have to limit
their commuting time. I suppose single people are the most able of all to handle long daily commuting.)
Ironically many of the super-commuters ARE parents. Tied to a city job, they nonetheless need to escape from the decision to make city schools inferior. Priced out of the inner suburbs, they end of denying their children parenting in exchange from providing them with an education. Were there a voucher system, equitable public school funding, and city schools run for the benefit of the children rather than the employees (or perhaps just one or two of those three), many of these folks would be living closer in.
Fortunately, I am affluent enough to send my kids to a Catholic school , virtually the only integrated school we came across. Integrated except for the poor, who cannot afford even its modest cost.
>>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/10/23/MN118229.DTL<<
a pathetic article about the latest yuppie madness--movies in the commute van. On a more serious note, you are correct that priced out of reasonable distance, AND unwilling to live in neighborhoods with "them", many two worker families choose extreme distance commutes. I think the tradeoff is dumb--you have to truly dislike spouse, progeny to spend somuch time away from them. In the Bay Area, the legendary housing crunch has finally gotten crazy enough that Oakland neighborhoods long considered 'terra incognita' are turning over because they are cheaper than the lily white tracts over in the Central Valley, AND much closer to the jobs. Unfortunately, until we have some real "urban planning" and outlaw the ridiculous bidding wars for joibs wherein politicians give away taxes into the far future for a ribbon, this picture will not change.
Thank God for San Francisco. It's a place to point to whenever people complain about housing prices and commuting in New York. At least here you can live in the outer boroughs and get around by transit, if you want to. I'd bet the value of property in the vicinity of the BART is astronomical.
The only good solution is (were it not for Prop 13) jack up property taxes and use the money to expand the rail transit system. Higher property taxes would cut the value of property. Legally or illegally, some strapped homeowners would rent out excess space as accessory apartments, increasing the amount of housing and providing a place for the service-class to live. And the transit extensions would provide a way to get around for those willing to take it.
The other solution if for things to get so bad that people and businesses get fed up and leave. See NYC in the early 1990s, after the 1980s housing price insanity.
The other solution [for high housing prices in San Francisco] is for things to get so bad that people and businesses get fed up and leave. See NYC in the early 1990s, after the 1980s housing price insanity.
Huh? I had thought that people fled NYC in the early 1990's because there were no jobs, not because of housing prices (which probably were dropping rapdily).
1. prop 13 really is close to irrelevant for single family dwellings--once the house turns over at the astronomical current prices(or even the ridiculous prices of ten years ago) the rate uses the new valuation. As to BART proximity--outside SF it is less of an issue--stupid parking lots. Asto expanding transit, the problem is BART. The platinum plated over gol cost of the system so far means extensions approach NY prices. There is a current fight over whether to piss away$4 or maybe $6 billion to run the system to San Jose from the Fremont terminal--instead of triple'tracking apresent rail line which enters the heart of the S Valley" employment nexus. Unfortunately the San Jose mayor has jumped on this bandwagon aas have heavy hitters in the business sector. So we will have a 10 year boondoggle rivalling Airtrain in both lameness and refusalto use prteviously invented wheels.
It's almost as entertaining as the arm twisting and bitchslapping that went on in the late 50s & 60s when they were trying to get BART approved and built. The Peninsula wanted nothing to do with it. East Bay other than Berkeley and Oakland didn't want it. Marin most vociferously didn't want it. Now, they're hollering and bitching about how they were excluded.
In DC, there's a similar grousefest going on. The Georgetown section ("truly top-drawer") staunchly opposed Metro coming through because they feared it would bring undesirables in. Well, even without the subway coming through, the main drag of Georgetown looks an awful lot like those undesirable types found their way in any how. Nowadays, Georgetown is constantly gumming up the works for other Metro expansion plans by insisting direct service for them be made the highest priority. At the same time, however, they "will not tolerate any disruption from construction." Sure thing. No problem.
These whiners need to have the dosage of their tranquilizers upped bigtime.
as one born in DC('44) I can only laugh--no transit no kitchen mechanics. Believers in democratic principles notwithstanding, (me included) sometimes I think transit projects should just be rammed down the NIMBY/BANANA throats anyway. Unfortunately, much of the problem is often other crap--Natcher holding up DC Metro for years 'cause he wanted some lame bridge. Besides sadly the bigger the project the higher the graft component.
sometimes I think transit projects should just be rammed down the NIMBY/BANANA throats anyway.
AMEN! It's too bad no politician has the cajones to do that.
Tampoco los cojones.
Good. The subway will now go right through your bedroom. We're going to sieze your home and property, and since it's now on our list, you'll get the 'new' market value, which is far less than what you would get if it wasn't on our list.
-Hank
For one thing, I would be compensated before the house is taken over.
And like I DON'T want a subway train in my backyard?
That's exactly how highways are constructed. It's an extremely rare occurrence for routing to be based on property acquisition, and even then, the decision is based on a cost differential or political importance of a landowner who is in the way, not because the community is opposed. Rail should, in theory, be easier to push through, since the ROW is much narrower than an expressway and requires much less condemnation; cut-and-cover subway construction requires virtually none at all. Unfortunatley, the common mind still equates public transportation with influx of poor or "different" people.
Were there a voucher system, equitable public school funding, and city schools run for the benefit of the children rather than the employees (or perhaps just one or two of those three), many of these folks would be living closer in.
Those are great goals. But vouchers are stupid. You're just taking the money from the people quietly and giving it back to them flamboyantly. Issue school vouchers to the poor, the middle class would be able to afford private schooling without the burden of paying taxes to a public school system they don't use. This assumes that public schools are abolished. After all, when the government saw the need to feed the poor, they gave them food stamps to shop in private stores. They didn't create government grocery stores for all.
Now, I know I went far afield, so lets not have this thread continue more than one or two more responses.
school vouchers would be like giving gas coupons to people who don't think the subway is functional enough. all you accomplish is "creaming" the system. When the "private" schools are forced to attempt educating the disruptive, the ESL's, and all the rest they will be shown up for what they truly are--not intrinsically any better--just able to eliminate the bottom of the curve. Sort of like the subway only being graded on ridership of the Lex as evidence of popularity.
(school vouchers would be like giving gas coupons to people who don't think the subway is functional enough.)
I'll agree when we abolish Medicare and force the elderly to go to the public hospital or clinic they are zoned for. If the elderly get to make choices about their health care, in order to protect themselves from a predatory or incompentent supplier where they live, then children should have the same options.
Didn't you say something a while back about the city having too many public hospitals?
-Hank
The ESLs can be catered by schools that have special programs, there's money to be made there.
As for the disruptives, might as well expel them before they waste more taxpayer money.
As for the gas vouchers, Mass transit (let alone subways) is not functional in most places. It might actually make more sense to subsidize cars for the poor than to continue to run bus service where it can only be a losing proposition.
I didn't really think of that as much, but all I know is that suburban transit systems are perennial losers and that will not change. Even dense center-light peripheral systems like PATCO or commuter RRs require private cars as feeders.
As for the gas vouchers, Mass transit (let alone subways) is not functional in most places. It might actually make more sense to subsidize cars for the poor than to continue to run bus service where it can only be a losing proposition.
There have been some attempts to do just that in various parts of the country. Most have been small-scale and are funded by corporate donations and the like. While the jury's still out, car subsidies probably will prove to be a difficult concept to make work because cars aren't a one-time expense. As most of the cars are likely to be older used cars, the cost of repairs is a major factor. Anecdotally, I've heard that one of the main reasons why struggling people slip below the poverty line, especially in small towns and rural areas, is because they lose their transportation - and then their jobs - when their cars break down. And insurance is likely to be an even bigger headache. Even if most subsidy program beneficiaries haven't driven before and therefore don't have bad driving records (though some surely do), many of them probably do have bad credit ratings, and today almost all auto insurance companies use credit ratings in underwriting. They've shown that actuarily, there is a very strong correlation between a bad credit rating and bad driving.
>The ESLs can be catered by schools that have special programs, there's money to be made there.
Yes, but them and the special eds cost more to educate, any way you look at it. An issue that gets ignored by the pro-voucher crowd. And sometimes its a LOT more.
>As for the disruptives, might as well expel them before they waste more taxpayer money.
I'll make a deal with you - I pay the taxes to educate them if you pay the taxes to incarcerate them if they get expelled...
Your plan is the single worst way to save the taxpayer $$$ i can think of. Alternative schools are another necessary, expensive thing that the voucher crowd ignores.
Last thing I will say about the matter, NO MATTER WHAT:
The uncontrollables are going to be incarcerated anyway, might as well make that conclusion earlier.
You are absolutely wrong.
I was one of those 'uncontrollables' I have not, nor will I ever be, incarcerated. I never even came close. I was not a 'special ed' student, nor was I ever placed in classes below my grade level. I was not 'socially promoted'. Each of these so-called 'uncontrollables' needs to be evaluated, and special teaching methods must be considered. Except in the case of the legitimately retarded (not the problem children relegated to special ed because of their behavior only) they should all get material that is appropriate to their grade and intelligence level.
-Hank
I don't know what made you uncontrollable, or why you consider yourself that. I don't even know if we're thinking of the same thing.
Each of these so-called 'uncontrollables' needs to be evaluated, and special teaching methods must be considered.
This is not incompatible with completely private schooling.
Yes, but them [ESL] and the special eds cost more to educate, any way you look at it. An issue that gets ignored by the pro-voucher crowd. And sometimes its a LOT more.
NYC schools put way too many children in these special program. Sunday's Times had an interesting article about how bilingual education remains sacrosanct in NYC while it's under great attack in California and other places. It's not that the system works well in NYC - quite the opposite. But it is a patronage mill, supporting a huge bureaucracy. In other words, the system was not developed to meet the need; instead, the need was expanded to satisfy the system's voracious appetite.
I'm not sure if special education is maintained at present levels to support an otherwise-redundant bureaucracy. But it definitely is a dumping ground for poor minority children who don't need to be there, a self-fulfilling means of ensuring their failure in the school system.
The Metro North trains would replace the Amtrak trains which currently
run between NYC and Albany. Faster, better and cheaper. And there may actually be people who
commute to Albany. I heard that Albany now wants some sort of commuter rail.
Metro North to Albany would sorta suck. We need a class of travel in between Amtrak and Commuter. It would be laid out like Amtrak (2-2 seats, snack service and bathrooms), but not as plush. I would say like Clocker service, but I have never ridden clocker service. Also ALbany would not loose its unreserved Amtrak service just because Metro North also goes there. Amtrak is very popular with those who can pay (like state officials, police and bussissness people).
BTW Harrisburg PA is getting commuter rail from Shippensburg or Carlisle in the east accross the PRR bridge, stoping at Penn Station and then heading south to Elizabethtown. STATE tower is going to be quite bussy w/ the intermodal terminal, 6 Through trains, Keystone Service, Commuter Rail and the possible remoting of TBS ELIZABETH.
Someone way back proposed (unofficially) a kind of 'State-trak', to replace the 403(b) service. The Clockers, Philadelphia-Harrisburg, and NYC-Albany-Buffalo services would be the kind of thing for it. I read this quite some time ago, I think it was in Trains.
-Hank
From NYC? Nowhere near enough people to justify Metro-North Service all the way to Albany on the Hudson Line. Someone once suggested on this site that there should be commuter service from Hartford to NYC. Hartford is 50 miles closer to NYC than Albany is, but it is still over 100 miles away.
Therre is supposed to be a demonstration service from Albany to Saratoga Springs. A service like that makes sense because Saratoga is very close to Albany. I hope it happens.
Hey, let's dream BIG! How about completing the job and wiring the rest of the Main Line to Pittsburgh, and, while we're at it, why not continue on through Cleveland to Chicago?
Too bad the PRR never finished the job all the way to Pittsburgh..that would have neen interesting....
They abandonned the idea in 1948, but had they gone ahead with it you would have seen GG-1's for passenger and the 5000hp DD-2's for freight. More than likley Conrail would have maintained electric operations and would have possibly electrified the Harrisburg Line route to NYC.
My, my, my...don't you guys ever think about anything other than the East Coast?
Raritan Line? So a little hicky commuter line gets electrified...there's one line that REALLY needs Electrification...
CALTRAIN
This one single Commuter Rail line has high ridership and serves a major corridor - but the running times are PATHETIC! Converting it to EMUs with faster accel/decel could cut times by over 30 minutes. Electrify Caltrain.
BTW, they actually are considering this, there were a few workshops on it a couple months back..
Which one is CALTRAIN? LA or SF? Someone was talking earlier aboot an electrified commuter tunnel into downtown San Fan.
Caltrain is SF. Caltrain currently runs San Fran - San Jose 24/7, and all the way to Gilroy at rush hours. The current Caltrain terminus in San Francisco - at 4th and Townsend - is about a mile from the central business district. Caltrain riders must take a hefty walk, or transfer to a MUNI LRV to take them to downtown via the Market Street tunnel. A tunnel allowing Caltrains to enter downtown and serve it directly is the dream of all engineers there, but the costs are exhorbitant. It's not possible without electrifcation, so electrifying the rest of the system is a nice big step towards it. The major reason for electrification though is to improve running times. Caltrain actually owns its own track - it leases freight rights out to the Southern Pacific - so there is no problem of squabbling over cost sharing. A tunnel to downtown will happen eventually - but whether it's in 4 years or 40 is tough to tell. My guess is that the downtown tunnel will only be built when (and if) the California High Speed Rail project is completed between LA and SF, in which case the tunnel would serve both the VHS trains and Caltrain.
How much was the Philly Commuter Tunnel to build in 1983. 300 million rings a bell for the 1-2 mile tunnel. If that # in accurate SF should have no problem.
>>Caltrain currently runs San Fran - San Jose 24/7,<<
well, not quite, more like 18/7.
http://transitinfo.org/Sched/CT/_/WD/NB.html
for current schedules
How about the LIRR to Port Jefferson? Or to Oyster Bay. Or Patchougue?
:)Andrew
LIRR once wanted to electrify all the way to Oyster Bay, and to Northport on the PJ. Oyster Bay plans are dead, I'm not sure about Northport. There are still active plans (that means the LIRR wants to do them once they have the money and it becomes the next priority, assuming something doesn't get in the way) to electrify to Patchogue on the Montauk line, Yaphank on the Ronk and the Central Branch.
Central branch? What's that?
Central branch? What's that?
A single-track, nonelectrified line that branches off the Main Line between Bethpage and Farmingdale and joins the Babylon line a short distance west of Babylon station. It's a remnant of the old Central Branch RR that ran all the way from Flushing. Although it's several miles long, it has no stations anymore. The last station, South Farmingdale, closed many years ago. Some Montauk line trains use it rather than the Babylon line. There also are a couple of freight customers along the line, a plastics factory and a beer distributor.
South Farmingdale was the only station it ever had AFAIK.
If they DO electrify this branch, they should put another station somewhere along it, perhaps in the West Babylon/North Lindenhurst area.
wayne
Until a few months ago, I lived in North Lindenhurst, right off Sunrise Hwy and North Monroe Ave. A North Lindnenhurst station on the Central Branch on Sunrise Hwy would have been perfect.
I thought the Central Branch was two tracks.
Another weird thing. Though it's obviously not electrified, I could have sowrn I saw some electric trains use it once or twice. Was I imagining things?
Andrew
Well, i guess its not exactly ambitious. But before we blow lots of bucks elsewhere, the caternary from New Haven all the way to DC really needs rebuilding to modern constant tension standards. It would allow higher max speeds for Acela exp over that stretch and would cut down maintenance costs. Provision could be made for one day switching everything to 25kV/60 Hz. And in some places on that stretch the caternary is really in sad shape.
NEVER NEVER NEVER, PRR Forever!
BTW, this is a case when quantity takes a larger share than quality.
Actually, a good [but VERY expensive] line for electrification would be the NJT Main/Bergen Lines up to Suffern: relatively few crossings, a nice, wide ROW, its a fairly short fast run, and MN wouldn't mind buying dual mode locos for its Port Jervis service, since it would speed up the trains south of Suffern, and then permit them to run into Penn Station [eventually]. Too bad the old Erie was always too broke to attempt electrification.....
Why would it be more expensive than any other line?
I remember a Jon Stossel spot on government monopolies and one of the things was about NYC trying to stamp out those $1 per ride commuter vans that seemed to be so much better/frequent/convienent/faster than MTA busses. They said that after the media expousure they were going to lisance more vans. Did this ever happen? Does anyone here use a van?
Vans might be useful if you pay with a dollar, since busses don't take them, otherwise they're disadvantageous, since you can't use a Metrocard or transfer to anything else.
>>> NYC trying to stamp out those $1 per ride commuter vans that seemed to be so much better/frequent/convienent/faster than MTA busses <<<
Mike;
Are you referring to commuter vans that pick up all their riders at one location and transport them to one destination, or jitneys that cruise along a route picking up anyone who flags them down? If it is the latter, the problem is that they are providing service to the public, and therefore need proper licensing, maintenance and insurance. Most operators of this type of service find they cannot make a living at $1.00 per ride when the true expenses for legal operation are taken into consideration.
In Los Angeles there are true commuter vans, where a large employer purchases the vehicle, usually a nine passenger van, and one of the employees keeps it at his home overnight and picks up other employees in his neighborhood and drives them to and from work. Even this arrangement brings up legal issues, such as is the driver "working" for the employer when driving other employees back and forth, and if an accident occurred which was the van driver's fault would the passengers be limited to worker's compensation for their injuries? I do not know the answers.
Tom
I'm talking about the vans that swing by bus stops and offer rides downtown for a dollar.
None of them go downtown.
There are two issues here. One is that yes, many of these vans pay subminimum wage, have no liability insurance, are unsafe, etc. But one reason that the "off the books" van market flourishes is that, at the behest of the TWU, the City refused to license additional legal vans.
Yes, legal vans can charge a dollar and run a legitimate operation. They are more efficient than the TA. Less management overhead.
The dollar vans that run on Flatbush do. It follows the B41 route from KP to Livingston and Smith Streets.
3TM
Downtown Brooklyn is a downtown by name only.
(Downtown Brooklyn is a downtown by name only.)
Ranked by number of people working there, it's number 13 or 14 of all the Downtowns in the U.S. and Canada. I know, I called all the planning agencies in all the cities and had them add up 1990 census journey to work data for their Downtowns. From a retail perspective, it's also stronger than most Downtowns.
It might be bigger than other downtowns, but it doesn't come close to Downtown or Midtown Manhattan and is foreshadowed by it.
If Brooklyn was transplanted to another city, then maybe it would make more sense as a downtown.
Commuter vans were licensed about two years ago. Most of the vans operate along the B41, B44, B46, Q5, Q85 and Q111 bus lines and none of the vans serve Manhattan. They are now legal and the van fare was raised to $1.25
Primarily, blacks are the only persons who use these vans as the vans serve largely minority areas.
Not all the vans are legal. Even in the corridors where they are licensed, they face competition from illegal operators.
-Hank
Also the Q83.
I think that NYCT should restore 6 Av/Broadway-Brooklyn service at the same time as the 63 St/Queens Blvd Connections opens except that the V train won't terminate at 2 Av, run the V train over the Chrystie St Connection after Broadway-Lafayette St to Essex St & replace the V train with the M line all the way to Metropolitan Av.
Replace the Southern Brooklyn M train with extended J trains to Bay Pkwy.
But one problem is that the V train would have to run with 8 car trains on both the Broadway-Brooklyn & Queens Blvd via 53 St because of platforms lengths along the Broadway-Brooklyn line.
Wow!! No questions from follo. Thats a first!!!!!
3TM
Yeah, but as overcrowded as the 53rd St. line is, I have a problem with 8 car trains of 60' cars. No matter when the 63rd St. line opens, remember there is no IRT connection at Lex/63rd, and ridership will be quite light till people get used to the route, no matter what kind of publicity the TA markets. Because in general the customers don't embrace change too well, or read signs, or listen to announcements even with the conductor speaking perfect English with a good PA system.
I've seen many new cars at E 180th. My only question is; When are they going into service? The cars still have the stickers on their doors. I like the new trains and want to see them on the 5 line. That's the line near my house. For old timers, it's the New York Boston and Westchester Railroad.
My Site
wait about three weeks and then they will be assigned after modification tests are done with the original set delivered.
however Bombardier hasn't delivered any of their own yet, so it might take a while longer. they were supposed to be in transit (being delivered at the present time) but don't know whats up with them.
terrence (KHI)
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/subways/railfan.htm
Found this on Tony's web site.
Amtrak has been trying to improve service and satisfacation, however they still seem to activly thwart any railfanning on board their trains. I think that Amtrak should offer a Railfan Class. It would cost the same as bussiness class, but wouldn't really require Amtrak to spend much in return. Railfan class would not require special seating, but all railfan class seats would be reserved. Railfan class could be nothing more than the first or last few rows of seats in the first or last car. Instead of having the cafe/bussiness car on the end, the car containing the railfan class would bring up the rear (or front if the baggage car HAD to be on the tail end). Because all within the railfan class would be railfans, all would be free to swap seats for the best pictures. A complimentary employee timetable complete with daily bullitins would be offered in that little magizine net, a portable cab signal display would be mounted for all to see and radio traffic could be piped in via earphones. There would also be a knowledgeable employee available who dosen't mind answering questions. Furthermore the windows would be cleaned at every majour station. I would pay extra simply for that. If Amtrak really wanted to go the extra mile railfan class riders could get a cab tour, be allowed on the platform before the train arrives, enjoy a meet and greet with the engineer or outward bench seating.
Most AMTRAK employees do their job well and they are supposed to treat all their "guests" equally. Please re-read my previous post. You want a lot of stuff (employee timetables are for employees) and you want little men at the major stations to clean the windows! I can see it now, a late train will get later or can't make up time because AMTRAK has to make the Railfan class happy! The first class people will get treated worse! AMTRAK IS NOT IN BUSINESS TO MAKE RAILFANS HAPPY! They are supposed to make ALL their guests happy.
AMTRAK IS NOT IN BUSINESS TO MAKE RAILFANS HAPPY!
But it could be. Railfans are usually Amtraks die hard supporters. No matter what Amtrak does to us we will always be satisfied. For a few Amtrak dollars worth of service I would pay bussisness class fares. Currently Amtrak is openly hostile to the needs of railfans. Its the arbitrary seating rules and really dirty windows that really get me mad. On my last couple of trips I have had nothing but frusturation trying to get a few simple pics. Ordinary travelers get all kinds of services that help them do their thing. As a railfan I don't care about being on time or comfort on the train. All I want is maybe some line info, some news and 2 clean windows to shoot out of. Just letting railfans be able to be seated together in the first or last car would improve my journey just like being on time would improve an ordinary travellers'.
PS: I was probably the only one on my train who was glad we were 4 hours late.
Well, railfans are part of that "all" aren't they, and therefore, if they aren't making the railfans happy, they ARE NOT making ALL their passengers happy...
Funny, I get shot down when I say the same thing about NYCT.
-Hank
The genesis of my remarks was because he called other people jerks because they "took" 3 seats he reserved so he could take pics. He never answered when I asked if he paid for those 3 extra seats.
You should take his posts with a grain of salt.
Well I generally feel that I could derive more satisfaction from using those windows for the purposes of photodocumentation (of which I would share w/ you all) than those 3 women did from using those 3 seats for READING A NEWSPAPER AND CHATTING. I had worked it so that I would have the greatest probability of getting 2 good views and I feel that those 3 people were activly trying to SPITE me. (I am a strong believer in spite, its an "inside" belief developed in high school).
Same goes for a railfan window. Why should some schlub sit there to sleep or stare at the pretty lights when I would enjoy the view on so many more levels. Its like some guy standing infront of a work of art so he can use the reflection to straighten his tie.
***FOAMER***ALERT***
Running for mayor of NYC soon? 'Spite' is a job requirement.
-Hank
Oh, are you sure they weren't really using the seats to travel to their destination, and biding their time chatting and reading a newspaper? I mean, certainly they paid more for their 3 seats that you paid for your 3 seats. You get your satisfaction from being obnoxious, they got theirs from reading and talking.
-Hank
I wasn't obnoxious to them. I never complain (to the people) even when other riders are being legitimate jerks. I feel that if I put up with other people's crap other people should put up with mine. On subways I will stand before siting next to someone because I know that they would like that seat for themselves. If my Amtrak train has all the window seats taken I would stand all the way home at the back window or croutch in one of the wheel chair areas than force someone to sit next to me. I was just mad because those 3 people should not have taken that train and they should not have searched the entire train for 3 open seats just to read the paper. They could have done that in the cafe car.
My last 4 Amtrak trips have all had something go wrong that has prevented me from getting what I needed to do, done. My trip home was fine, except it was at night. The second I get on a train when the sun is out and at a good angle, the while thing fills up. I just can't win.
You show the classic symtptoms of being an arrogant bastard. I thought Pigs was the most arrogant person here. Now I think we all know better.
-Hank
Wouldn't be a good idea for the MTA to establish usage of these cards on metro north and the lirr, and for the port authority to do the same for the PATH and NJ transit, all with the same card? After all it is called the "Metro"card.
You can buy a "Mail N Ride" MetroCard. One side is a dip/swipe card, the other is a monthly flash pass.
Mr t__:^)
Problem with doing it on LIRR/MNCR/NJT is the zoned fare system that is in place on those lines, which would require turnstiles. You can get a monthly pass for LIRR/MNCR that is also a Metrocard, and there have been various reports of the PA investigating adding PATH to the Metrocard system, but no definate yet.
-Hank
Other problems
1 - When you get off and don't have enough fare how do you pay?
2 - How do you differenciate between regular passengers and the handicapped ?
3 - How do you distinguish betwen peak and non-peak trains?
4 - How do you get to the platform to meet people ?
5 - You can't do swiping on the trains - no room and would slow down people entering and exiting so how do you maintain schedules?
6 - Placing MVM's on platforms - what if they break down?
7 - With no ticket agent on duty (and some stations w/o agents at any time - how do you stop vandalism?
The list could go on and on but this is enought for now.
Have a nice day.
All of these problems have already been handled in the TA implementation of the card. As to your number 4, you simply meet at an obvious exit. Your number 1 is solved by WMATA and BART. The
-Hank
10/15/2000
Yesterday I rode one of those (J) trains which wrong railed to Canal St. Now I know that the rehabbed side of Canal St. will be the two track station if the TA double tracks the Centre St. subway. But what about Bowery? Which side will be the double tracked side? Queens or Chambers St bound?
It seems that the Queens bound side is undergoing the typical platform rehab (preparation for floor tiles)
Bill "Newkirk"
What are you talking about? The Bowery is a 4 track station and Canal St is a 3 track station as track #4 at Canal was taken out of service years ago. There are no plans to change the layout of the line.
Also, the J train that you were on was not wrong-railing. It was operating on track #4 from Essex St to north of Canal St where it crosses over to track #3 into the Canal St. spur where it terminated due to a G.O. in effect on tracks 1 and 2. The J train after the T/O changes ends then operates on track #3 from Canal St to north of the Bowery where it then crosses over onto track #1 and resumes it's normal route leaving Manhattan. The only train that was wrong-railing was a special shuttle train operating on track #1 which ran between Canal St and Chambers St under an "absolute block". And the entire Bowery station is being re-habbed.
Bill was talking about an item posted on the board about a year ago that the Center Street line would be 'straightened out' by moving the Willie B-bound trains onto the currently abandoned Track 4. I don't remember who posted it, but it was mentioned about the same time they rehabbed the downtown (western) platform early last year.
So far, nothing has been done to the tiles and floors on the other platform, which made the report about the abandonment of the eastern platform seem more plausible.
The rehab of the northbound platform is very different from the southbound side. The southbound side is undergoing both structural AND cosmetic work, wheras the northbound platform is receiving structural work only. Notice the ugly concrete sleeves that now surround the support beams on the northbound side.
It does appear that the city will reduce both Canal and the Bowery to one platform (southbound), with the southbound express track becoming the new Queensbound track. This would require the southbound "stub" at canal to be physically extended to the incoming northbound track from Chambers St (sorry, I don't know their official numbers). They'd have to rip out the current wrap-around connection and the wall at the southern end of the station.
Please explain to me where you got this information because whoever gave it to you does not have a clue.
I already responded to you once on that matter. Short answer is contract # C34572.
Arti
I did'nt get the prior response. But anyway, I'll believe it when I see it. There are other projects in the TA that need the money more than this "no sense" plan.
I responded to your original scepticism about Nassau line reconfiguration with the full text of the contract. Or go to MTA web site and look at the section with upcoming contracts.
Arti
Well I read contract #C34572. After reading it I'm not sure as to whether they plan to take the northbound platforms completely out of service or they are just going to tear everything up and install new stuff and keep the N/B side out of service during the contract which is the way I think that I read it. The posting wasn't very clear on this and it did not mention anything about knocking down part of the plat, walls and some rock unless that is another contract altogether. It only mentioned replacing crew quarters. I will talk to the line superintendent on Friday when I return to work and see if I can get some clarification on this.
[and keep the N/B side out of service during the contract which is the way I think that I read it. ]
That's hard to believe. Looking at the track map it's obvious that it would be a major effort to take northbound plats out of the service.
Items like new 1000' of new track, new signals would all be neccessary to accomplish that.
Shortly it would take years to get to the point where they could run revenue service on S/B plats only.
Arti
Not really. The only major construction work needed would be the demolition of the wall at the southern end of Canal St that would allow the southbound express track to connect with the inbound northbound track from Chambers St.
Consolidation has several benefits, allowing now useless trackage (these tracks haven't been needed since the #14 line ceased to exist on 7/1/68) to be abandoned, which would save a lot of time with the necessary signal and switch maintenace that goes with the territory. Plus it allows for only 1/2 of the Bowery and Canal St. stations being rehabbed, saving $$$'s there.
IIRC, the southbound "stub" track has been abandoned for decades. I've never seen a train on it.
The switch was removed from the north end of Canal St. on 4 track.
You will never see another train on that track until they re-install the switch which will only happen with that pending contract.
[Not really. The only major construction work needed would be the demolition of the wall at the southern end of Canal St that would allow the southbound express track to connect with the inbound northbound track from Chambers St. ]
From the contract:
Install approximately 1,000 linear feet of new type II modified (concrete) track through the Canal Street station
Reconstruct approximately 3,000 feet of existing track; replace switches on that track
Install new signals over approximately 6,000 feet of track
Arti
Is all of this referring to geagraphic north or subway-line north. On the Nassau line, north Chabers St-bound. There is a sign at the south end of Canal St which says so.
Northbound = trains going to Broadway Brooklyn and Queens. Southbound = trains going to Broad St. and thru Montague St.
The contract is already been submitted. Plus, I have the luxury of personal observation of the Bowery station as I pass through it twice a day. Bowery is recieving only a structural rehab on the northbound side, and a cosmetic one as well on the southbound side. Given that Canal St only had it's southbound platform rehabbed, and that this was completed over 3 years ago, the evidence suggesting that the Nassau St. line will be consolidated to 2 tracks is overwhelming.
From MTA web site:
This contract is for October.
C34572
RECONFIGURE NASSAU STREET LINE
MANHATTAN
$10M - $50M
This project is to reconfigure the subway tracks used by the J, M and the Z lines from the Canal Street station to the Essex Street station. The three subdivision B lines are collectively known as the Nassau Street line. The northbound station platforms at both the Canal Street and Bowery Street will be taken out of service during this project. The scope of work for this project includes the following tasks.
Install approximately 1,000 linear feet of new type II modified (concrete) track through the Canal Street station
Reconstruct approximately 3,000 feet of existing track; replace switches on that track
Install new signals over approximately 6,000 feet of track
Replace the existing crew quarters
Duration of Contract 36 months
On my two subway maps I noticed the B train terminates at 145th Street in Manhattan, but in another, published around the same time, sends it deep into the Bronx. Has that schedule been changed?
They terminate at both places.
Bedford Park Boulevard rush hours, and 145th Street between Rush Hours.
Don't forget 21-St Queensbridge after the Q stops running in the evening(About 9PM-1:30 AM). Also, the B terminates at 21-St on the weekends. Late nights, the B only runs between 36St and C.I.
JDL
Sorry, G.O. Last weekend, B ended at 57th St. 6th Ave, shuttle from the Broadway line to 21st Queens >G<.
Boy the B sure ends at a lot of different ends!!
During midnight hours the destination signs may look like this
or
During rush hours it should look like this
During Middays and after rush hour before 9:30, it should look like this
After 9:30 PM and till midnight, it should look like this
It's a cab car! Only #s ending with 0,1,5,6.
It's a cab car! Only #s ending with 0,1,5,6 are supposed to be cabs!
Wouldn't that be an R142 and not an R142A? Unless someone changed things while I wasn't paying attention, I thought that the lowest-numbered R142A was supposed to be 7211. I could understand 7209 being an A car (as in cab, not Kawasaki) as a way of getting spares into the order.
Mark
It's up at the Kawasaki plant in Yonkers, you can see it from the train when it passes by.
7209 and 7210 are both Kawasaki Cars......Here are both of them being delivered:
This is 7209
This is 7210
Delivery Sticker off of 7209
Notice the Red Seats in 7209
Regards,
yes they are from Kawasaki. Kawasaki uses onepiece fiberglass on both ends of all their cars, Bobardier would use two piece endings, top end fiber glass and bottom end stainless steel. Kawasaki uses a half a cylinder shape for heat vents under the seats. Bombardier uses half a diamond shape. the doors are showing less stainless steel (kawasaki) the doors show more stainless steel(bombardier)interior hides speakers(kawasaki) interior provides e-z access and they are easily found(bombardier)windows allowing view into the next car are in a cardboard wood frame(kawasaki) windows are surrounded in steel frame(bombardier) thats how u can tell. also incase ur wondering about what happened to the read seats, yonkers took em out cause they were crappy and unconfortable. (what the R110A had)
I know, that's what I was stating but with the photos!
Trevor
I just saw a Macy's ad for some sale and in the second shot there are some models sporting stuff on a rail platform and lo and behold what is behind them? A string of new LIAR bi-levels!
I saw an ad for Lycra that featured some kind of dance floor environment in R16 #6387, and featured shots of R62 doors opening, closing, etc. The interior shots were definitely from 6387. There was an IRT car (R17 #6609, noticed the red exterior behind horizontal poles in a different shade of red) in an interior shot where the doors were open. Another situation where I instantly recognized a subway car in an advertisement! (Recognized #9306 in an ad for nyc2012.com, incidentally, they're all cars inside the Transit Museum.)
9306 was used for a recent TV commercial. The giveaway is the "Court" lettering on the wall tiles visible through the car windows.
On the LIRR recently an M-1 had a 'Watch the Gap' sticker that said:
MTA Metro North Commuter Railroad
I also remember a while back an SIR R-44 had one that said:
MTA Long Island Rail Road
Is there a Metro North car with a MTA Staten Island Railway sticker?
How does this happen (not the whole car, just one door!)
Mischievious railfans come to mind. 8)
Peace,
ANDEE
Because of the lifelong commitment involved I have no wish to work for the railroad or local transit agency. However, my interest in railroads have begun to take over various parts of my life. It is reaching such an extent that I am beginning to worry. Here are some real examples:
When giving directions I have replaced intersection with interlocking.
When I ride my bike through traffic lights, stop signal etc. I always call the signal under my breath (Approach, Stop and Proceed etc.)
In the previous statement I wrote stop signal instead of stop sign.
Also while riding my bike I make a brake pipe reduction for speed restrictions (that's how I think about it now, not kidding).
When talking with ticket agents or train crew I have replaced station names with interlocking names (Amtrak dosen't stop at FAIR).
I like to immatate defect detectors and radio transmissions.
When driving or sking or biking I like to make switch rumbling sounds when moving accross anything that resembles a junction.
When talking about enything with a motor I always refer to notches (of which there are 8).
Traffic lights "clear".
I sware I could make a "You know you're an idiot railfan if" list with just the things I do myself. Now none of these manerisms are consistantly preformed, but its getting worse. Am I going insane or something here? Will I wind up like heypaul?
jersey mike asked: "will i end up like heypaul?"
no matter how hopeless and out of control your life may seem now, keep in sight that there is always the remote possibility that you might end up as well adjusted as i am...
>>> keep in sight that there is always the remote possibility that you might end up as well adjusted as i am... <<<
Heypaul;
Are you trying to drive him to suicide??? :-)
Tom
tom asked if i was trying to drive jersey mike to suicide...
au contraire, i was shining a little light into his darkness... i was offering him the hope of a richer, fuller life as he wallows in self pity...
i was offering him the hope of a richer, fuller life as he wallows in self pity...
I like to wallow
Oink, squeal, snort.
The problem with looking at street intersections as interlockings is that you say things like, "He can't cross in front of me because he has a stop and s....okay, I guess he'll cross in front of me anyway -I wonder why he's not in emergency..." What the world really needs is approach and GT traffic lights with positive enforcement to thwart maniac drivers!
;-)
Dave
After we moved to New Jersey and I became immersed in the NYC subway, I used to do a few things while riding my bicycle which had a subway theme:
Drawing imaginary I-beams with my index finger as I rode along.
Imitating opening and closing of doors with my hands any time I'd stop.
If a street had four delineated widths of asphalt paving, I'd stay on one of the two inner widths (gotta run express, you know).
To this day, I make switch sounds when crossing over at a road construction site. At a green light, I'll occasionally beep-beep, beep-beep, beep-beep the horn if I don't have to stop.
That's nothing. Ever stand in the front of the head car and grab the door handle and pretend you're driving the subway? Cops have put their hands on their guns when I do that. If they ever find a cure for this eye condition I have, I'll quit my computer job and take the motorman's test. There's nothing wrong with you, Mike. I spend every day I have off riding around New York and New Jersey, not going anywhere in particular. A lot of my friends and family think I'm nuts, but trains are WAY more important than family, right? ;-)
Oh, by the way, Dave Pirmann, please let me know if you mind me putting a link to my site at the end of my posts. If you do, I'll stop.
If you want to know if you've gone over the edge, answer this one question honestly:
You're out riding your bike and nature calls. Do you duck behind a convenient obstruction and take a leak or do you radio in for a comfort releif? If you answer that it's the former, you're still probably okay.
....or use a motorman's helper?
Um, a WHAT?
Hey Steve, what if I have to take a serious #2 dump. If I did the former, would that put me in the nut house?
;-)
BMTman
Hmmmmm ... Do we really want to go there?
In the real world of subway labor, this has become a significant issue. Take for example, a track gang working on the Queens Blvd. line between 65th and 36th St. on D-3 or D-4 track. Now, if nature calls, I assume people do what people need to do. Unfortunately, add a woman or two to the gang and now you have a logistical problem.
Take for example, a track gang working on the Queens Blvd. line between 65th and 36th St. on D-3 or D-4 track. Now, if nature calls, I assume people do what people need to do. Unfortunately, add a woman or two to the gang and now you have a logistical problem.
There's no problem at all, if the woman has read this.
More proof that Al Gore invented the internet and it's all that he invisioned.
Seriously, does anybody actually know who REALLY authored the bill to create DARPA?
[More proof that Al Gore invented the internet and it's all that he invisioned.]
At least Al Gore had something to invision. Can't think of one thing George Dubya has invisioned since he did coke.
BMTman
I would hope our society has progressed to the point where female track workers can feel free to pee in the subway tunnel side by side with their male counterparts. Every person has the right to quick and easy relief.
A while back there was talk of the MTA going with a millenium paint scheme for the R-68s. Is this plan still in the works or has it been tossed aside?
IIRC that was something that Train Dude mentioned that never got past the idea stage.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have a few days off this week, with of course drizzly, cool weather in the forecast, and I was thinking of taking NJ Transit out to Suffern and maybe even Port Jervis--a long way. Is the line picturesque, or 'railfan-worthy' enough for me to bother?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The fall foilage will make it a real treat.
This is one great line. I reccommend you take both the Main and Bergen County lines, to see both branches of this line. The Bergen line has many RR crossings, and busy freight traffic. The Main line is largely grade separated, but goes through a swamp near the beginning, and around Paterson goes near a large freight yard.
As for abandoned stuff, the Bergen county line was relocated in the 80s (or late 70s) from going through the center of a town to the outskirts, you can still see 2 tracks go straight while you go off to the side.
The Main Line has 2 abandoned stations, South Paterson which still has side platforms and small white-on-brown signs, and River st which I cannot find. Lots of old station buildings on both routes.
The through trains to Port Jervis that make no stops on either line usually follow the Bergen County line, because it is slightly shorter and does not have a one track bridge.
Who operates those trains? They appear on the Metro-North maps and as Metro-North lines but it also says NJ Transit and you won't find them in a MN Station Index.
the line is operated by NJ Transit on Norfolk Southern owned Right of way under a contract for Metro North.
Definately worth the trip. It's been a couple of years since I rode it, but with the leaves turning it should be a very nice ride. There is a spectacular trestle a few miles before reaching Port Jervis, and when you get to PJ you can see the restored turntable and the remains of the old concrete coaling towers (beware the vagrants down by the towers though).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm looking for images of stickers, announcements, and other subway related visual items. I've found plenty of maps and pictures of station signs (like "116th street Columbia University"), but I also need images of ones like "Seat Reserved...".
I'm working on a project that's supposed to have the asthetic of a subway system, and while I'm here in NYC, I would like to see what other types of designs and symbols there are out there, as well as what the standards were in the past.
Sorry for being so inarticulate...its late...that's my excuse.
any links or directions would be greatly appreciated!
TIA
Darrell
Stuff from the past:
Look at 168st station on the 1/9, looks like something out of a history book (ignore the newly installed fluorescent lights).
Check out the Transit Museum, they've got old subway cars, turnstiles, signs, etc. Take the A C G to Hoyt - Schermerhorn, or the A C F to Jay st, or the 2 3 4 5 to Borough Hall. Walk to Boerum Place and Schermerhorn st, the entrance is right there in the middle of the sidewalk (subway entrance).
Other interesting things are the IND Station Tile Colors.
As for signs and the like, I'll post again later with links to the few sign pictures I've taken.
See if you can get all twelve questions right. You do call yourself a buff do you? Some of the questions are very hard so try your best. And if some of them stump you, scroll down to the answers below. After all, learning something new is one of the purposes of SubTalk isn't it?
1)On which lines does track #1 go northbound and track #2 go southbound?
2)You are operating a subway train. All of a sudden you come up on a home signal which has 3 yellows lit. What does this mean?
3)Name the only location in the TA system where you can legally split a switch(spring switch).
4)Name the only location in the B division where a home ball never clears and only gives call-ons to passenger service trains.
5)Easy: Name the only lines that relay on both ends of the line.
6)In the current TA control center at Jay St., the track boards light up to show train movement for only one section of the system. What lines operate in this section?
7)Which TA yard does not have third rail power? (The 38 St. dock is not a yard).
8)In Canarsie yard, there are two sections called the "old" yard which was built when the line opened and the "new" yard which was built fairly recently. The tracks in the new yard have a name, what is it?
9)Very hard: The East New York yard was renovated about 3 years ago. When the job was completed, one of the tracks was taken out. What was the number of the track taken out?
10)There is an underground yard north of 168 St. where C trains lay up at night. What is the name of this yard?
11)Name the only master tower named after an individual and what was the unfortunate incident that happened which led to the honor? Also, what was the old name of the tower?
12)Hard: The Archer Av extension serves the E and J/Z lines which currently end at Jamaica Center(Parsons/Archer). Under the original plans drawn up in 1969(and listed in a pamphlet dated May 1969), where was this extension supposed to terminate?
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Answers:
1)The J/M/Z lines tracks are the only revenue service tracks to defy TA logic.
2)3 yellows is a "yard indication signal". It does not give the status of the next signal nor does it tell you what the route you will be taking is. This signal is also used to indicate a second diverging route. Example: On the middle track at Hewes St. on the J going towards Manhattan, you would get a "bottom yellow" to go onto track #2 at Marcy Av. Three yellows would put you onto track #1 at Marcy Av. for wrong-railing purposes.
3)Concourse Yard has a spring switch leading to the car wash track. This switch is not tower controlled or hand thrown. You simply run through or "split" the switch and it automatically springs back into place to go through the car wash.
4)Track #4 just north of Canal St. on the J/M/Z lines has a home signal which only issues call-ons. You receive the call-on automatically(not by the tower) when the first wheel of the train enters the circuit and the area ahead is clear. After taking the call-on, you then merge onto track #3 at Canal St. and terminate at the bumping block.
5)The C, G and 6 (Parkchester) lines relay at both ends. The C however is the only one that has ALL trains relaying at both ends.
6)The 4/5/6 Lexington Av. lines in Manhattan is the only area that show train movement in the TA control center.
7)Linden Yard is the only yard that does not have third rail power and is used for work train purposes only. It's closest to New Lots Av. station on the L line.
8)The new yard's tracks are called the "apple" tracks.
9)Track #37 was the only track not re-installed after the yard overhaul.
10)The C trains lay up at night in the 174th St Yard which is unmanned and controlled by 207th St. master tower.
11)Joe Murphy master tower(formerly 38th St. master tower). Joe Murphy was a tower operator who was killed during military duty during Operation Desert Storm.
12)The Archer Av. extension was originally supposed to terminate at Springfield Blvd. in southeast Queens.
The 6av shuttle terminating at 2nd Ave takes a call-on the enter B5 or B6
Slight difference between the two though, the one at 2nd Ave. is tower controlled while the one at Canal St. J is not.
6 trains, whether from Parkchester or Pelham, do not relay at the south end of the line (Brooklyn Bridge). They go around a loop in one move. To be a relay, the TO needs to take the train beyond the station, dump, change ends and bring it back on a different track, like 4s at Utica or 6s at Parkchester.
Then the 5 at Bowling Green isn't considered a relay either? And are passengers allowed to ride the loops at Bklyn Bridge or Bowling Green?
No. The inner South Ferry loop is classified as nonrevenue trackage; consequently, passengers are not permitted to stay on board. The loop track at City Hall was reclassified as revenue trackage a few years ago and passengers were allowed to go around the loop, but Rudy shot that down a year or two ago.
"Concourse Yard has a spring switch leading to the car wash track. This switch is not tower controlled or hand thrown. You simply run through or "split" the switch and it automatically springs back into place to go through the car wash."
99 Switch has been out of service since May.
And the rate that it may ever be fixed, Train Dude will be riding the open road full time before that happens.
* My goal is to video all of the last surviving redbirds the week of october 23rd monday to the 27th friday. I guess the best way to do this is to start with the # 6 23rd monday #4 24 tuesday #2 25 wednesday # 5 26th thursday & then finally my favorite the flushing #7 line friday the 27th take the weekend off at the subway museum then then next monday the A Q L & J & M etc friday the 3rd my birthday is my last shot at this then back to the amtrak station ( oh well )
i can feel my feet already, you can rest when you are dead !!
got to get this done enough talking about it T.C.B. !! i love nyc !!
south ferry is going to do a short video interview of me for his cable station.
please if u can, send me any video clips or something!! i'll pay if i have to. over here in miami, the transportation is pathetic, and i miss seeing all the redbirds and such.
i was there last november 1999 i shot the 2 5 7 lines A Q E L J etc.
my tape list is featured in the railfan videos section on this site !
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
http//photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
also i shot the los angeles blue line / a in cab foward view !!!
According to the Destination:Freedom Newsletter, a media advisory will be made today or tomorrow regarding the official announcement of the start-up of ACELA Express service.
i was wondering if you guys/girls know any links to any mechanik sites that have any subway routes whether its from the nyc subway or any other underground subway system
Try Jon's Mechanik Page.
This is the only one I found that I actually remember, other than the ones on his links page.
Does anybody know when the final answer keys and the hiring list to this test will be established? I need to know right now because it has been 9 months since i took the exam. I will apreciate it if someone lets me know.
Vernon, future train operator
Only 9 months for a city exam and you want the answer key??
I don't know if it was published yet but this is a city test. It can take YEARS for the list to be established and then CERTIFIED. Answer key is only the first step, you then have the protest period.
I took an E/E (Education/Experience) test in 1993, the list was not established until 1996, it was certified in 1999 and just expired in 2000 (1 year). The new test is in Q2 of 2001 so that was 3 years to be established and 6 years to get certified. I was 105.7 on the list and they never reached me (called until 93) in that year.
Only 9 months, you will have to keep waiting unless the TA pushes the city HARD.
At this rate, I will almost be 30 by the time I get called up. That is if it actually takes that long. Thanks anyway.
Vernon, future train operator
Look at it this way: How often do you see a T/O in his early 20s?
The ideal time to come into the system is at age 30. that way, when you turn 55, you'll have 25 years of service and can retire right then.
I am in the last or next to last promational class. The TA train Opt. school room at the the learning center in Brooklyn is tell us that the TA might start hiring off the street sometimes in December of this year. So look for your number to come in any time now. The School Room still have to set up a train couse to put in the working of the TA. This park dose not have to be giving to anyone that is in the TA becouse we know how it work. The train time now is 75 days for the A Division(IRT) and 99 days for the B Division(BMT,IND). They say they will have to add about 10 or more days to each of them to fill all of people off the streets.
Hop this helps.
Robert
Excuse me but what are you trying to say?
and you thought Salaam's spelling was bad...
Bingo - Is it possible that our 'west coast cookoo' is posting under a nom-de-plume'?
Don't think so... but I do think someone else may be... since I could be wrong I won't make any further statements.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Robert; I had a little trouble understanding your message but I presume what you mean is that the TA plans to start hiring off the list of candidates from the January exam in December and that the normal training times will be extended an additional couple of weeks to introduce the new hirees to the TA structuring. Am I correct?
The rumor floating around RTO is that a TO class off the street will be formed in December. The last rumor also said that training time would NOT be extended for the off the streeters; however things change, so it is possible that the training will be extended.
The TA can't extend the training period for the open competitive exam because then they would be open to lawsuits from probationary employees who were demoted. The said employees could cite insufficient training.
When I was in school car in Jan. all the TSS' said the training period will be the same.
The TA can do anything it deems necessary with regard to training. Training for various titles has been frequently modified as to time and/or content. As for a lawsuit, anyone can sue for anything. Will such a suit have merit? Now that's another story.
I started as a conductor almost 9 years ago at age 21. I went to train operator in February 1994 at age 23.
Usually, the answer key is published in "The Chief" the week following the exam. You can also buy the answer key for $1.00 at the Thomas St. Office.
Usually, the answer key is published in "The Chief" the week following the exam. You can also buy the answer key for $1.00 at the WASHINGTON St. Office.
Please stop putting Re in the beginning of messages, it makes it look like a response, which is misleading.
Thank you.
i keep hearing that the R62A's used for the #6 will be used, but then again i also heard that the R142's are gonna take over the #7 line. I'm a big redbird fan and the question is, which ever train replaces the #7 line, aren't they gonna leave at least some redbirds out in stock?
The redbirds are all on their way out, at least when it comes to passenger service. It's just a question of when. It may be a few months, or it may be a year or two (I hear varying things on this board.) Soon, the 7 line will be all R62As.
:)Andrew
As the 142 and 142A's come in they will go to 5 and the 6 lines that currently run "Redbirds" (3/4 too). The R62A's will be sent to replace the redbirds on the 7. As far as I hear no 142/A's will go to the 7 line only repositioned R62A's.
But this is all based on rumor, we will just have to continue to wait and see.
In MTA's capital plan there are no funds for upgrading Corona Yard. That would probably mean that R142s won't go there.
Arti
Well there will still be some Redbirds around, but they will likely be converted into Yellowbirds (work trains).
yes, but they will not be any on the 7 0r 6. THey would probably run on the 4? no 142s will go to the flushing line.
Seems silly to scrap the R33/R36 equipment altogether once the R142s begin serving the 1 thru 6 plus 9 lines and the R62's begin serving the Corona Line. The Redbirds seem to be running fine to me. Why not keep all but the rustiest of the trains in service as a supplement to the newer IRT equipment, the way they currently do on the '4', '5', '6', and '2'? This way, there could be more frequent and less crowded IRT service all around. In other words, if it ain't broke...
As has been said on this board many times, the Redbirds are in pretty good mechanical condition, and, in general, in absolutely putrid physical condition. They are ALL going to be replaced. However, the base R-142 and R-142A contracts only provide for 1,080 cars. There are 1,400 Redbirds, and the intent is to replace all of them plus increase the fleet by about 320-350 cars for additional service. That will initially be accomplished by keeping some Redbirds around, but later they will be replaced.
David
In the "Illustrated Roster" are of this site you can see some Worlds Fair R33/R36's in IND/BMT stations. Did these trains ever run on non-IRT lines regularly.
:)Andrew
Nope, they are always on special trains or on yard moves when they are on B division tracks. That's the only way they can get from the 7 line to the rest of the system.
Thank you :)
I suspect that these photos were taken when Flushing Line trains were being sent to or from service at the Coney Island Yard. The Corona Yard can perform some maintenance tasks, but the really heavy-duty stuff is done at Coney Island. The Flushing Line trains get there via the Queensboro Plaza crossover to the 60th Street Tunnel, and then run on the BMT (N or R) tracks to Coney Island. There is no direct connection between the Flushing Line and any other IRT line, so they can't be serviced at an IRT yard.
My site features many pictures of the R36 cars at CIY. The picture below takes you there.
Actually if they were recent photos they were from a fan trip held this summer involving a train of redbirds and the 0f-116 observation car. The trip covered parts of the BMT Broadway, IND Queens Boulevard, IND Crosstown, Culver, West End, Brighton, and Flushing lines.
Those pictures are of IRT cars used for ERA fantrips only. No regular service using IRT cars on IND/BMT lines ever existed, except for a few modified low V's on the Culver shuttle in the 1950's.
Rebirds used to be on the C about 12-13 years back, before R32s came along.
True but those were IND redbirds, R-27/30s, they were of larger dimesions and have since been scapped.
Peace,
ANDEE
True but those were IND redbirds
Well, BMT Redbirds anyway.
(I rode one of those to Whitehall Street when I joined the Navy in '66)
Elias
Some R-27/30s were painted red in the late 60s, but in 1967 they were still olive drab for the most part.
I know this is late notice and the sun will set at 6:30pm but here is my plan for a visit to the Staten Island Railway.
I've listed three different Staten Island Ferry Boats you can meet to meet or catch up to the group. Please email any questions.
3:30pm #7 Meet QueensBoro Plaza Manhattan Bound Head End to 42nd St for the 2/3 and then 1 to South Ferry
5:00pm Staten Island Ferry Boat Meet On the Boat Upper Deck (I don't know which Class of Boat runs make it the top deck) Manhattan End.
5:30pm Train 86 Head Car Make Sure it is the Express First Stop Great Kills Train you get on. The local (skips 1st 3 stops) is at 5:32.
We will detrain at Eltingville (2nd Stop) at 5:47 to allow others to catch up and get a bite to eat (Burger King, Pizzia, Bagel Store)
5:15 Boat for the Train 90 5:47 Express to Eltingville get off meet group at the Tottenville platform or check the above three eateries.
5:30 Boat for the Train 94 6:02 Express STAY ON THE TRAIN at Eltingville Head Car to meet Group at Eltingville, the Group will be boarding this train at Eltingville.
The Group will baord train 94 at Eltingville at 6:19pm going to Tottenville to arrive at 6:35pm.
Return Trip might be (up to group) the 6:50 train this will allow us to get off at TWO other stations(decided by the group) like Atlantic or Nassau or Dongan Hills. There is another train 10 minutes later and then five minutes after that for Train 113 to catch the 8:30 boat back to South Ferry arriving SF 8:55. I know that is tight so we might just to one extra station stop.
If anyone wants to stop at more stations note from that point each train will meet a boat by it is now a 30 minute headway.
Some things to see:
St George (on the end of the field trip if you want to miss a boat).
Most From the Trian:
MOW Tomkinsville
Elevated Running Stapleton/Clifton
Navy Pier Stapleton
MOW Clifton
Old South Beach Cutoff Clifton
High Speed (haha) run to Grasmere
Old siding for Staten Island Advance
Old Elevated Siding Dongan Hills
Open Cut running Grant City/New Dorp(built at street level, later sunk).
New and Improved (MOW/Layup)Siding and Switches at Great Kills
Old siding Lumber Yard Eltingville
MOW Siding and Switch over Huguenot
Old removed cuts for Ivory Soap
Flags stops (and rundown Stations) Richmond Valley, Nassau, Atlantic.
TOTTENVILlE.
I hope to catch a 3 PM #7 at Main Street, so anyone who wants a bit longer ride on this all Red Bird line meet there.
Looks like Lou has found a great deal for us to see, so I'll be putting fresh batteries in my flash.
Mr t__:^)
Lou, I'll be shooting for the 5:00 pm boat.
See ya there.
BMTman
5:00 Ferry SHOULD be either the Barbieri or Newhouse; the 5:15 and 5:30 Ferries SHOULD be Kennedy class boats (mid-sized with wooden seats). If the last few weeks are any indication, I'll be on the 5:30 boat, but don't know yet if I'll take the trip down the SIR. Depending on the weather, I'll either be in uniform or wearing a black jacket with a Toronto logo on the back. In any event I will be at the Staten Island end by the upper level doors, no matter what boat it is.
Knowing my luck they will lose a boat and go to the 20 minute schedule.
Well I wish I could go, but I can't get back home later than 10pm (I'd have to be back in Flushing to make the 8:53pm N21 home).
So I wouldn't have much time in Staten Island, figure I'd have to get back to S.Ferry by 7:30pm latest.
If I do go to S.I. it will be earlier, since I have to leave early.
Port Ivory is at the other end of the North Shore line. The cut at Nassau was for AT&T.
-Hank
OK, I will try to make part of the trip.
I will be at the SIR terminal at St.George and will be catching the 5:30pm SIR Express train, in the front car. I will be wearing blue pants and a gray shirt.
I will NOT be getting off at Eltingville, instead I will stay on the train and take it to Tottenville, since I will eat earlier in the day.
So I can only make the first leg of the trip.
From Tottenville I will board the 6:15pm and either get off at Grasmere for the S53 bus to 86th street or take the SIR to the ferry.
I cannot go back any later than this because I got the long trip home to Sea Cliff so I wish I could stay longer but I really don't wanna get home after 10pm.
So hopefully I'll see some of you Thursday!!
Mr. Lou, why was this SIRTA trip not listed at the 'Upcoming Events' page?
Did you contact Dave Pirmann about this SubTalk-related trip in advance? I'm sure a little 'ad space' would help get the word out.
BMTman
No I did not contact him, I posted this Monday, was out at Shea until 2:30am Tuesday and we had a servers crash at work and as I type this from home Internet hasn't been restored. So no I didn't have the time or the resources to contact Mr. Pirman.
I am so razzed and angry at Sysco they can't even FIX BREAKFAST!!! (Router crashed, now it can't see the Tree or DMZ or half the servers). Sorry... Anyway we will do this next summer with more light and more stops.
With your tribulations at work, will you still be able to make it tomorrow?
I'll be there, full service restored 3am last night but I was let home before that (was waiting for parts).
I'll also be at #7 Main Street station at 3 PM to board a Red Bird.
Am hopping to link up with Lou & Peggy at Queensboro Plaza at 3:30,
then 7th Ave from Times Sq. to South Ferry & a 5 PM boat.
Got just enough shots left in my camera to click a few before sun-set.
Dress warm & bring your FUN PASS.
Mr t__:^)
Can someone email me a schedule at hank_eisenstein@nai.com? I may be able to be around.
-Hank
No need to do that. Go to the beginning of this thread. There is a very simple schedule for today's trip.
BMTman
Uhm, SYSCO, the food services company, or CISCO, the networking equipment supplier?
-Hank
Tomorrow is a day I leave school at 2:PM, so if I go I'll still be in dress code.
Had it been today or Friday, I could have left at 1:15, and had time to go home and change.
Maybe I'll join at the 5:00 ferry, by 'Top Deck' do you mean inside or outside? If outside, it'll be the same no matter what class. If inside, the top deck on the Kennedy class is enclosed at the ends, while the middle deck leads to the upper entrance; for the Barberi / Newhouse, the Manhattan end of the top and middle lead to the same entrance.
if I go I'll still be in dress code.
Egad, a teenager who will actually resemble a human being???? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We will find each other, TOP DECK is TOP towards the Manhattan end. We have 20 minutes to find each other. I'm 6'8 300lbs wearing a green jacket/black jeans.
Is there a trackmap of the HBLR available anywhere yet? Also, I hear they're extending it past Exchange Place next month. Now, are they going to take the loop at Exchange out, or are they just putting a switch? At least, I think there's a loop past Exchange. That's what I was told.
No, there's no loop at Exchange Pl. The cars are double ended and there's a crossover switch just short of the location of Harborside Station.
-Dave
Actually, unless it's been changed recently, it's half of a cross over switch. The N bound track curves to the left and terminates at a switch on the S bound side. The N bound track then resumes out of thin air at the Harbourside Station. Presumably this is not the final arrangement.
* Of cource I will see this for myself next week for my self ! Will I be dissapointed?? Maybe this is worth shooting as well on video!!
( oh well )
Yep there are. But here there is a catch. You have to catch a train with a engineer who is not proping the cab door open with their foot or bag. It is highly unlikely but you will come apon a few.
Make sure to tape the river tunnels as well as the yards and Atlantic Ave tunnel for a short peek of the abandoned Woodhaven Station. Just above that is the old Rockaway ROW. The station on that line is still intact but requires a climb.
The Mileona interlock with the Oster Bay line is really cool. Train to OB crosses the westbound tracks. Of course for some reason the OB train which express to Mileona end up crawling behind the Rokakoma local train. Anyway, have a good time and bring lots of tape and $$$.
I've only rarely seen the propping-of-the-cab-door open on MNRR trains. Wonder why it's so common on LIRR. Same basic cab design...
The railfan window on RR lines is kinda neat, in the summer you're sure to squish several bugs on it. Though, on some MNRR trains large amounts of small bugs collect on the front window, and when the train goes underground they move to the light above your head. These are the fearless kind, the ones that won't fly away if you move your arm, and you spend most of your time flicking bugs rather than looking out the window.
Whassamatter? No trains running in L.A., so ya gotta come to New York to get your fix?! :o)
* hey !!got to have it man its a drug addiction, the rail fan window!
I need serious help with my drug dependency !!
* hey !!got to have it man its a drug addiction, the rail fan window!
I need serious help with my drug dependency !!
Well, that certainly explains A LOT of things.
* good now whats with your "lots of things" it goes like this I admit mine, whats yours? " the other white meat"??
I guess this thread brings a whole new meaning to the term mainliner.
Gee, I'm glad I Killfiled him early. Maybe he'll jump under a LA Red Line train when all the railfan windows are a distant memory.
be careful what you wish to happen to others does not come home to visit you worse !! & please do not jump under any train at any time it just is not a safe thing to do mr lawrence!
There were signs all over Union Turnpike the past week about the E being split in two (WTC to UT, and UT to Jamaica). It was supposed to happen Sunday. What happened? The signs were gone yesterday and the E was normal!
About 2 years ago, I saw from the bridge over Kingsland station, an Amtrak train! I missed the engine, behind it possibly a viewliner, 2 Amfleets, and a baggage or mail car.
What could this have been?
Can (does) Amtrak use the connection from Port Jervis to Chicago for anything?
Does Amtrak's charter service allow use on non-Amtrak ROW?
Amtrak has operated all kinds of charter services. One example is something like the King Coal operated by some group of of Philly on the Reading main line to somewhere or some convention. Its very expensive though.
Amtrak ran a charter on the NJT Atlantic City line three weeks ago.
I was riding the J today, after work, looking out the front. I love classic elevated railroads. The turns on the J are great, as are the old houses it goes by.
The BRT/BMT is by far the best division on the subway system. The IRT has the classiest stations, and the IND has the biggest most complex stations.
Each division has its charm, but the BMT is king.
My Site
I haven't been on the J since it was first extended to Jamaica Center. I oughta railfan it on there again soon.
:)Andrew
Hey Tony, I know it as the Broadway El since the line is also shared by the M and Z Trains. I haven't been on the route in some years but I love the ride across the Williamsburg Bridge, the Myrtle Ave Split and the trackage at Broadway Junction including the yard that's there.
I was last on the J when the last stop was still an el station called 168th St.
And the newest cars were the R-16s.
I used to ride on it every few weeks on Saturdays from Cleveland St. to Fulton St. Most often, we'd get a train of R-27/30s, with an occasional R-42 train. Once, at 111th St., a QJ of R-7/9s pulled in. Luckily, I rode it out to 168th St. three times while that portion was still there, and have ridden on it to Jamaica Center once.
Over the years, J trains I've been on have carried such earlier markings as 15, JJ, and QJ.
I'll bet you never rode it when the lead car only carried two green marker lights!
Ahhh, you rode the REAL J train, not today's dismemberd facsimile.
The J may be slow, but you sure can't beat it in terms of railfan interest!
Riding the J is like taking a seat on your model RxR ... all those tight turns with squealing wheels & attached houses within arms length. If you're trying to film the ride, it realy tests your skill.
Mr t__:^)
I agree with Thurston. Nothing beats the tight turns and 'old time' El structure features of the J Line. It's a favorite ride of mine whenever I have to meet up with the Branford 3/4 Ton Crew members at Jamaica.
BMTman
I WILL BE SHOOTING THE ""J"" line the week of october 30th to nov 3rd
this time both directions maybe some z train mixed in !!
Salaam,
Please don't bring any firearms into the subway. Those poor trains are too old to be shot.
JDL
If you're trying to film the ride, it realy tests your skill.
Actually, Thurston, it's pretty easy. The train never gets fast enough where keeping ones balance is a big problem. And its curved station approaches and, in some cases, stations make for interesting runbys if you stand in the right places. There are good photo points off the system, too.
And enjoy Broadway Junction while it lasts because in a few years it's going to look mighty different.
I'd only suggest you try to do this on a weekday where service is much more frequent and you'll find you won't wait for long until another train comes.
Take it from someone who now has the entire BMT Eastern Division on video.
--Mark
Mark, looking to shoot urban landscape. Which station on the "J" line would have the best vantage point?
Can you help?
marty.
I'm not sure what you mean by urban landscape, as there can be many varieties. If you mean tall high-rise apartment buildings, then there are some between Hewes & Myrtle. If you're looking for the typical "stores in 3 floor walkups alongside an El", Myrtle Ave would work, then so would anywhere along Jamaica Ave from 75th St to 121st St. If you're looking for the original sections of El dating back to the late 19th century, then you'd want to get off between Van Sicklen & Crescent Sts. If you're looking for remains of what used to be viable businesses due to a riot in the 1977 bkackout, then try the lower section of the Broadway El below Gates Ave (exact locations escape me at this point, but I won't go there alone anyway). If you want to imagine what elevated transit was once like in its heyday, then get off at Broadway Junction and walk around the massive complex. Great video to be seen, provided the local youth decide to leave you alone. While things are better there now, I tried taking some sidewalk video a few months back and was quickly a "target" of some local miscreants looking for trouble. I highballed it out of there and left. The platforms, interestingly enough, are not nearly "as bad".
Hope that helps.
--Mark
Mark,
What are they doing to Broadway Junction?
JDL
For starters they are taking steel down & moving track as part of work on the L. That station has a lot of steel left over from the trolley & BRT El days.
Mr t__:^)
Right. The trackwork from just north of Sutter Ave, through Atlantic Ave to Broadway Junction is supposed to be completely redone and streamlined, in part, for the installation of CBTC on the Canarsie Line. At Sutter, remains of the Fulton St line will be torn down, the Manhattan-bound L train will lose that sharp S curve into Atlantic Ave and will be realigned next to the current Canarsie-bound track. It's expected to take a few years to complete.
--Mark
Yes, thank you so much for the info. I'm looking at urban renewal and scars left behind from past situations. As you've encountered, the streets are not always safe, this is why I was asking about the lines. Still the safest way to photograph and great vantage points anyways.
Last question, would you be willing to do the Polo Grounds tour one last time? I'm asking because I missed the 1st one and it seems they're going to close for the final time again.
let me know.
Thanks for the info, Marty.
>>>I'm looking at urban renewal and scars left behind from past
situations.<<<<
Then you should enjoy...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Go Mets
I last rode the J to Jamaica Centre back in 1996 just after morning rush hour. I stood at the front window so had a great view. I love the whole line as each neighbourhood differs greatly. The run along Broadway goes through a pretty rough looking area but then the cemetery further out with its greenery adds a nice contrast. The huge junction at Broadway-East NY is amazing. Then it's underground near the terminal into a fairly modern station which reminds me of one of Toronto's newer stations. I'm in New York this coming weekend so may take advantage of the run once again!
Ian, just wondering if that's the line which goes through part of city that was hit by the riots back in 77? If so are there still remnants and scars of burnt out blds showing today.
I'm photographing the fall and renewal of urban landscape; no doubt the subway is the best and safest way.
Marty.
[I'm photographing the fall and renewal of urban landscape]
Looking for the fall part, you might want to start with heypaul's apartment.
BMTman
that's the line which goes through part of city that was hit by the riots back in 77?
Yes
If so are there still remnants and scars of burnt out blds showing today.
Not only that, but rows of new one and two family houses being built, or already built, in spots one and two blocks away from the subway. Easily seen from the trains. Other spots still left in their derelict condition (one movie theatre comes to mind) and others simply have open lots.
--Mark
Ian, just wondering if that's the line which goes through part of city that was hit by the riots back in 77? If so are there still remnants and scars of burnt out blds showing today.
I'm photographing the fall and renewal of urban landscape; no doubt the subway is the best and safest way.
Marty.
Yes it is. The Bway section of the line is where you want to check out. Especially between Myrtle and Eastern Pkwy.
3TM
cant wait to shoot it again midday on video !! ( again ) & at night !
Did you get to see Chambers Street station? A modern archeological ruins.
Wayne
My first ride on the J was years ago when it was the number15. My mother use to go into Manhattan to visit family,and the Broadway EL was just up the street.
Ah, the J train. I used to love the J. But now (look away, Karl), I am sorry to admit that I cannot stand it!
I have lived in the Woodhaven/Ozone Park area for about 15 years. Up until last November, I lived near Atlantic Ave., roughly an equidistant walk between the A on Liberty Ave. and the J on Jamaica Ave. So, I would almost always take the A to get to work (I work near WTC), only rarely the J. Coming home, I would take either the A or the J. At that time, I really liked the J.
Last November, I moved into my current apartment, right on Jamaica Ave., and I began taking the J to work instead of the A. Due to the fact that I had taken the J in to work a handful of times before, and the fact that I had taken the J home quasi-regularly for many years, I figured that the experience of taking the J on a regular basis would be similar to that of taking the A.
I figured wrong.
The J is great for railfanning and sightseeing and enjoying the great neighborhoods of New York; but it is murder if you are trying to GO SOMEWHERE! I just never truly appreciated how S-L-O-W it is.
I realize now that my standards have been shaped by the service on the A. By that yardstick, the J just doesn't measure up; going downtown from this part of Queens just takes so much longer on the J than it does on the A.
For example, on the A, I became accustomed to getting to Broadway/East New York in a rather zippety-bang fashion; you read one article and you're there. On the J, I found myself grinding my teeth and stamping my feet in frustration almost every day at the seemingly enormous length of time required to go that first leg of the trip.
Furthermore, on the other end of the journey, the A habituated me to the concept that, once I cross from Brooklyn into Manhattan, I am *at* my destination. So, when the J would complete its crossing of the Williamsburgh Bridge, I would start thinking "I'm here"; yet my stop (Fulton St.) was still 4 stops away! Arrgh!
(Oddly enough, even though I had taken the J home about half the time over the years, I had never noticed this frustration. Obviously, this is because I am not pressed for time on the way home, whereas time is a major factor on the commute in.)
I could not overcome this daily frustration. The Manhattan-bound J train was giving me chronic agita, so I gave it up. I now totally eschew the venerable Jamaica El on my way to work (though I still take it going home sometimes), and instead take the Q11 bus down Woodhaven Blvd. to the A stop at Rockaway Blvd.
Even when you combine the waiting time for the bus and the A train, it is usually faster than the J. For example, today I left my apartment at 8:45, and I exited the turnsiles at the A stop at WTC at 9:30. You can't do that, or anything comparable to that, on the J!
Ferdinand Cesarano
If you were a stop or two further out on Jamaica Ave., I'd say you'd be better off heading in the opposite direction on the J to Sutphin Blvd. and then taking the E from there to WTC, but at Woodhaven, either the Q11 or just going down to East New York to transfer would be faster.
Hmmmm....according to my schedule, the 8:48 am departure from Woodhaven Blvd(8:40 from Parsons) is scheduled to arrive at Fulton St. at 9:29 am. And the 8:39 am departure(8:31 Par) arrives at 9:21 am. Either you run into congestion all the time on the J or you cannot handle riding a local train psychologically. I think that most of us suffers from the latter(myself included).
Yes my friend a rush hour ride when you have to get there & are packed in just isn't the same as a Saturday morning when you almost have the car as well as the railfan window to yourself.
Mr t__:^)
I'm sorry to hear that you gave up on the J. I guess that those R-42's are just not as fast as the R-16's and the old Standards. It's been many years, but I thought I used to make the trip from Crescent St to Broad St in 35 or 40 minutes.
Today, it takes about 3-5 minutes more.
This is an 8.5 inch x 11 inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collectorąs MUST HAVE. The supply is very limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea.+ $2. P & H in check or Money Order
Made out to Mike Makman.
To: Prof. Putter
Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
On my trip I was horrified to see that Amtrak has replaced many of its penumatic switch machines on the NEC with inferrior electric machines. Way to honour your PRR heritage. Even Conrail kept most of its PRR lines penumatic. Hey, does the LIAR use Penumatic? HAROLD has been converted to electric, but I don't know about the rest.
My guess is electric switch machines are easier to install/msaintain - you don't have to have a compressor and air lines everywhere. I don't know if they're any slower or faster.
Of course the LIRR has pneumatics everywhere. PATH has them too - go to Exchange Place some day stand by the end of the platform, and watch the trains come and go :)
To clarify - that's the west end of the westbound platform at Exchange Place and it's a good one to look at, since it's in the station. For audible effects, though, there's a lot more of interest at the east end of Journal Square - you can often hear 2 or 3 of 'em move at one time as routes get set up for incoming trains from NY.
Yeah, Way to go! Replacing less reliable penumatic switch machines with more reliable electric machines. No compressor machinery or airlines to maintain, not prone to airline freezes, and easier to control.
-Hank
Now you need to maintain electric lines and DC power supplies not to mention all the cogs and gears in the electric motor. The Penumatic machine reacts faster and is beter able to provide a long duration force to overcome obstructions and friction. Furthermore it is easier to find and repair faults in an air line than faults in an electrical line and water seepage is not a problem. I would not think that the Standard Railroad of the World would have installed an inferrior product.
But then, back at the turn of the century, pneumatics were quite common, reliable electric motors weren't. Today, sealed permenant magnet DC motors are a dime a dozen, reliable ones aren't much more. As for making a DC power supply, so what? I can make a 110V DC, 15 amp supply for about $5 with parts from Radio Shack. And it won't break for, oh, a few decades. Or longer.
It's still easier to maintain a modern DC motor than a pneumatic actuator. Brush wear isn't a problem on them like it used to be, and they're amazingly robust. And modern electric lines can be sealed pretty well. Modern connectors and wiring is great stuff - I've got an 8 pin electrical connector hanging on for the ride under my bike's motor, and it's been blasted with water, sand, grit, oil (Yeah, it's a Harley, yeah, that's where the oil's comming from :) and bugs and other fun things. And it hasn't shorted, corroded, broken up, shattered, or gone bad. And it's a $5 plug and socket set.
Pneumatic lines leak, break, compressors break, pressure switches go screwy, and if you get water into the system (which is almost a certainty), you just need a good cold day and you've got a frozen switch. Plus pnumatics and water don't mix. I bet modern electric switch machines could work underwater.
I don’t remember seeing this previously; if someone already posted it, I apologize.
The October Railway Age has an article on the two 2-axle 600 HP low emission custom built Brookville Locomotive 70 ton diesel switchers working GCT. The article is online.
I wonder if this means that #064 will be returning to NYCT property.
Incidentally, the number on the pictured loco in the article is #404, or in other words, File (or in this case locomotive) Not Found! :-)
I thought it was illegal to use diesel in the Park Avenue tunnel and GCT except in emergencies.
I thought it was illegal to use diesel in the Park Avenue tunnel and GCT except in emergencies.
These were custom designed and built for this purpose. Perhaps the law was modified, or perhaps a definition of level of emissions was written to render them acceptable.
I was wondering if I can get a History of how and when the MTA took over funding and then how Metro North was established, how Amtrak didn't get control of the new Haven line, why the LIRR wasn't included in a big NY commuter RR company, when the different types of rolling stock was purchased (and what they displaced), when that massive re-signaling project took place making Metro North the most advanced commuter railroad in the world and how the older equipment was upgraded. Were cab signals introduced before all the waysides were removed? If so, how long before.
PS: Does anyone know what type of signaling is used on the "Burry" lines in CT?
how and when the MTA took over funding and then how Metro North was established
MTA took over funding from Conrail in 1983. Conrail was the goverment takeover of several major RR's when they went baknrupt. Conrail was later privitized (late 70's) and taken over by CSX (it seems like that was about two years ago, but I could be wrong).
why the LIRR wasn't included in a big NY commuter RR company
Because it made money.
As for your other questions, I don't know.
The MTA was funding the commuter operation since the late 60's. That's why all the PC and NH trains got an MTA M. Are you saying that Metro North was established as a seperate Railroad in 1983?
Yes, Metro North used to be Conrail Commuter railroad, look at any map from that era. Look Here.
Jersey Mike: The Metro-North story may be said to begin on April 26,1970 when the Penn Central Transportation Company formed the Metropolitan Region to include the Hudson Line (to Castleton),the Harlem Line (to Chatham), the New Haven Line and the New Canaan, Danbury and Waterbury Branches. This was intended to operate passenger services only. Freight Yards and sidings would be under the jurisdiction either of the Northeastern Region or what was then the New Haven Region. It was at this time that the ex-New Haven Shore Line was renamed the New Haven Line.
On May 26,1972 the Metropolitan Transportation Authority signed a 60 year lease and "Purchase of Service" contract with Penn Central and assumed financial responsibiltiy for the lines. The Connecticut authorities also assumed finacial obligations for the New Haven Lines but I don't know the exact details. At about this time the Penn Central name was no longer used (except in small print) on public timetables. Harlem and Hudson Line timetables were styled "M Central" and the New Haven Line was styled "M New Haven".
Conrail took over Penn Central on April 1,1976 and continued to operate the trains for MTA and CDOT.
Sometime in late 1982 or early 1983 the MTA formed the Metro-North Commuter Rail Division to coordinate the takeover of the lines. On January 1,1983 this became the Metro-North Commuter Railroad with authority to operate all the lines. CDOT reimburses Metro-North for operations in the State of Connecticut.
Both the Danbury and Waterbury Branches operate under a Manual Block Signal System, as does the Beacon Line and the Harlem Line above Brewster North.
Larry,RedbirdR33
So the lines are unsignaled? Are there any passing sidings? Interlockings? I could have sworn I saw a signal while driving the Meritt Parkway bridge over the Housitanic.
Its interesting that 1983 (well 1981-1983) seems to be the year that marked the re-birth of commuter rail (and the death of many old services). Conrail finally rid its self of all passenger operations. Old Ad hoc DOT services (NJ Dot, the MTA and ConnCOT) were discarded and replaced by new transit Companies (NJT and Metro North). Money loosing services were discarded (ALL South Jersey train service, service to Phillipsburg and possibly service to Toms River NJ). Finally the last of the classic rolling stock was discarded (NJT E units, RDC's, GG-1's and probably most of the 60 FL-9's or NYC MU's and NH MU's on Metro North). This period of time was when Conrail discarded electric operations and then became profitable, Reading terminal closed and Amtrak bought its fleet of F40's and AEM-7's. Mind you lots of stuff went on in the 70's, but in the early 80's it was out with the old and in with the new (gas crisis?). Today its out with the old and in with the newer.
Mike: The Danbury Branch has Block Limit Stations at BERK (MP0.3),GLOVE (MP3.6),WILT (MP7.3),HILL (MP12.7),DAN (MP23.1) and CANAL (MP23.7). There is a siding at Wilton which is 1,195 feet long and another at Branchville which is 1,000 feet long.
Larry,RedbirdR33
,
So MNRR owns the Hudson line as well?
There is one pair of M-2s which says: M New Haven. Very faded, but it exists.
So I'm off subject, who cares? The Mets have just disposed of the Cardinals, 7-0, to win the National League pennant. Yahooooooo!!!!!! Lets hear it Mets fans/
...which means you can get to a World Series game this year by riding the #7 train. There, now you're back on topic.
Hopefully, the "#4", "B", and "D" trains will also be of use.
10/17/2000
I'll bet that #7 Flushing Line was jumping with all of those returning Met's fans after the game ended !
Bill "Newkirk"
Section 8, Row N, Seat 20 Mezzaine that was me. What an once in a life time experience. My brother called, "do you want tix to Game 5?" (He knows I am a Yankee Fan) A deal fell through (Lawyers) he had to stay in the office. I am just speachless about the whole night.
I forgot who the Cards pitcher was (#66?) but the crowd broke into a chant of "Wild Pitch" "Wild Pitch" and low and behold a wild pitch runner on Third.
The place rocked, "Wild Pitch" "Wild Pitch" all over and low and behold a wild pitch RUN SCORED. Did this crowd of 55,695 actually WILLED this Wild Pitch?? It sure felt like it.
Now to return to topic, I parked over by the tennis center for free (saved $14) and walked over that TA/LIRR overpass looking at the redbirds. I have to go back and get some before and after shots Redbrids and R62A's!!
That was Rick Ankiel, and he set a CARREER RECORD for postseason wild pitches (9) in the series. He's a rookie.
-Hank
Good to hear you were there. Are you going to ride the #7 train to the World Series? Or the #4? That's really the only way to go. The exictement builds that way, and you can hob-nob with the fans on the way. I'll bet those trains will be jumping during the coming week. Good for our Mets. Boy I would love to get tickets to the Series. I think I'd make plane reservations in a minute. Have a blast.
Hold on a second...I was there for game 4, not game 5. I only named the pitcher for the Cardinals...
-Hank
I hope you're not complaining Hank. You saw one hell of a game, the best of the five if you ask me. The noise that night jumped right out of my TV set into the living room. It was quite a site.
Actually, I think I saw a better game in game 3 of the Division series. Jodi wanted to leave after the 12th inning. I made her stay. She's still kinda angry, but she wants series tickets.
-Hank
If that's the case Hank, it looks like she's forgiven you already. Did you know Benny's shot was out the moment he hit it? It seemed that way on tv.
Yep. She missed it though, on her way to the ladies room. But she saw everyone suddenly run back out ot the stands, she followed. Then we had to rush home...
-Hank
Just like a lady, going to the restroom when the action is ready to explode----but don't tell her I said that. It must have been one hell of a sight to see, Benny's homer, that is.
I was there also. Field Section Box 28. We were sitting a few roms back from Mayor Giuliani and Al D'Amato. About 9 seats over to the left of me sat Jerry Seinfeld. I am grateful for my friend here at work to give me the tickets he won in the lottery.
It took 2 and half hours to get to the stadium from the Bronx. I ended up parking near the observation tower monuments in Flushing Corona park.
While walking on the overpass of the Corona yard, it struck me to see so many trains already parked for the night. You would have thought all the trains would be out running to provide as much service to and from the game.
BX---You've caught my interest. You're from the Bronx. Are you a Mets fan? And if you are, are there many Mets fans up there. I know it's staunch Yankee territory, but when I was a kid I knew a few Dodger fans who lived up there. Good to know you were at the game. I'm kind of envious I had to watch it on TV, but I can tell you I really had a good time. However, I wish I had been at Shea.
Tell you the truth, I'm a fan of any New York team. I know it's a paradox (or is it oxymoron?) to be a fan of both teams, but I figure as long as New York is in the running, it's a good thing.
However, the way things are looking, it'll be NY vs NY. North vs. South. Brother against brother.
But you're right, the Bronx is Yankee territory. Amazingly, though, there are people in this club I belong to who live in Queens who are also Yankee fans. But Queens for the most part is Mets land.
The tickets I got were from a friend who also likes both teams. The tickets for the Yankees were considerably more, so he opted for the Mets only.
And just to keep this on topic, we were wondering if it would have paid to take the Metro North to Grand Central to the #7 instead of driving in. Although it would have been a long ride, it couldn't be much worse than having to park in Flushing Meadows Park then pile onto a bus that would let you off near the overpass of Corona yard.
Yankee Playoff Tix are MORE, much more.
Bleacher's Season $7 - Playoff $30 (price on tix)
At Shea I had a $25 seat (Season) for $50 (price on tix)
For the NLCS, my seat was $70. Normal price for the seat (upper box) is $21 (Same as Mezz Reserved)
-Hank
[We were sitting a few roms back from Mayor Giuliani and Al D'Amato.]
Did you try and bean Rudy in the head with a beer can? ;-)
You know, seriously, MANY people in our immediate area were wondering the same thing. They had their body guards, but Kennedy had them also, right?
But surprisingly, the mayor was well received despite being a Yankee fan. People were even stopping him to take pictures alongside him.
No one approached Senifeld, though. He was keeping a low profile and always looking straight ahead at all times.
The funny part of the whole thing was that D'Amato began to stand up and yell at the umpire or someone from the Cardinals. And you had the section behind him yelling, "DOWN IN FRONT!!!" :-)
Maybe Bob Uecker was sitting next to him. Nah, he'd be up in the nosebleed section.
If any Subtalker were to be sitting near Rudy, the first thing they should ask Hizzoner would be when he plans to take in some courage formula and reopen City Hall loop to the public.
If the Subtalkers would even get a chance to talk to him. He was approched by so many people. Seinfeld was probably grateful he wasn't being accosted like that as the mayor passed not too far from from him.
I didn't even realize who it was the first time he passed. I saw people scoffing this older looking man in a cap and glasses. They were telling to go back to Yankee Stadium. In back of my mind I was wondering why they were being so disrespectful to a man who is obviously many years their senior.
I asked someone next to me why were people doing that the guy who just passed. I was then told it was the mayor. And in typical NY fashion, when he returned, the SAME people were cheering his name and taking his picture. Classic.
What beer can??
Good Olde Bud is selling Beer in PLASTIC bottles for $5.75 please. No glass allowed. I still think all the urinals are connected to Bud Bottling Stations and they just rebottle the p**s and sell it for almost $6.
A Yankee fan from Brooklyn. I guess it's common nowadays. When I was a kid, Yankee fans in Brooklyn caught holy hell. Except for Italian neighborhoods which were about 55-45 Dodger fans, most of the other neighborhoods were 90-10 Dodger fans. In the black areas, it was close to 100-0. Anyway, glad to know you had a good seat and a good time. This is a great time to live in your city. Right now I wish I was there.
Hey I grew up on Staten Island so what does that make me truly to be a Philly fan??? LOL
Section 8. Something that you and Cpl.Klinger from MASH have in common.
Wish I could have been there instead of "pounding the road".
[Hopefully, the "#4", "B", and "D" trains will also be of use.]
All we need to hear is John Sterling say "Ball game over! American League Championship Series over! Yankees win! Theeeeeee Yankees win!!!" Then they'd be useful.
Any plans to have some 7 trains on standby to rush those coming from Shea down the express track into Manhattan?
Even Yankee fans can't stand listening to John 'Jackmaster' Sterling.
-Hank
That's nothing. Our radio voice of the Avalanche, whose name escapes me at this moment, shouts "He scooooooooooooooooooooores!!" whenever the puck finds its way into the net. Jerry Schimmel, the voice of the Nuggets, yells "gooooooooooooooooood!!!" when a Nugget hits a three-pointer from about midcourt. Dave Logan, who does Bronco games, says "Here we go!" when a running back is about to go the distance. When a Rockies player hits a home run, Jeff Kingery tells his radio audience, "It ain't comin' back!"
I miss the good old days when Lindsay Nelson did Met games along with Ralph Kiner and Bob Murphy. They at least tried to remain neutral.
And who can ever forget Jerry Coleman's classic "Rich Folkers is throwing up in the bullpen" gaffe?
Murphy is definately NOT neutral. He's not paid to be. National broadcasters have to be, but the local broadcasters are paid by the team, and support the team. He is at least objective, and he calls it as he sees it.
-Hank
There's a guy who does the play-by-play on Spanish futból (Soccer) games, and whenever someone scores a goal, he yells out "ˇGooooooooooooooooooooooool!" Sometime's he'd do this two or three times.
Yeah, he's a bit of a celebrity, too. He did Olympic soccer for NBC. He also did the World Cup in 94, and David Letterman had him on.
-Hank
I heard a clip once from a Spanish language play-by-play call of a Tony Dorsett touchdown run: "A la cuarenta, a la treinta, a la veinte, a la diez, TOUCHDOWN!!!!!!!" (to the 40, to the 30, to the 20, to the 10, etc.)
I used to love to watch a Mets/Cubs game on WGN if the Mets won. Then I would put it to Harry Caray in the same words as this thread. You could always tell who he was rooting for. I still think Phil Rizzuto's Holy Cow was better.
Looks as if I may ride the 7 more than once next week, as I was going to take some pics of Corona Yard and the Unisphere anyway.
The MTA better at least provide more express service FROM Manhattan! Having ridden a 7 express right before NLCS Game 5 gametime I can say the service then was inadequate!
Go Mets !!!!
* & the cardinals got rid of the BRAVES ( good riddance to them ) !!!
nice going nyc !!
All we need now is a Yankee victory tonight for a Subway Series. As Jackie Gleason used to say, how sweet it is!!!
Hello, Redbirds, GO METS!!!!!
What a great going away present for the Redbirds.....A Met's World Series Victory !!
I will drink to that-----lemonade, that is.
Wonder if they'll paint a train. I'm sure the Mets would even pay for the paint!
-Hank
Bring on the greedy Yankees!!!!!!!!
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Mets Fan since 1973
www.geocities.com/justin2669/NYCTransiTrans.html
A Mets fans since 1973? Good show. One of my favorite years. Bring on the Yankees and the Yankee fans and let's get it on now.
whoopi.
Well, we've just heard from a Yankee fan. From the Bronx?
Let's just hope they can stick it to the Yanks. I don't wanna see the Yankees win AGAIN. In the words of W., they are major-league assholes. Well let's just hope our elementary school math was right, that
7 > 4
-Abe
Fresh from shredding the Seattle Mourners, our beloved ***AWESOME***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S* are busily preparing to remove all doubt that they are the best team FOR all time and are going to take a little ride on the 7 train to take out the trash and add yet another world series pennant to the VAST collection which proudly flies over their magnificent stadium.
Just make sure that gutless Roger Clemens doesn't pitch at Shea Stadium, which he won't because Torre is scared shitless that the bum will get one between the eyes. We haven't forgotten.
Fred, you are right, Clemens is not fit to wear pinstripes. In baseball, the players know how to deal with situations like that ...a hard line drive EXACTLY up the middle... (I'd rather be shot)
Clemens is slated for Games 2 and 6, if it goes that far. If he were to pitch at Shea, Leo Durocher's ghost would be yelling, "Stick it in his ear!" the first time Clemens were to come to bat.
That's tentative. Probably be Orlando Hernandez (he has a NAME, dammit!) and Mike Hampton in Game 1, Leiter and Clemens in Game 2. With a little luck, Clemens will take one like Florie did in Boston. Can't say he aimed, can you?
-Hank :)
Does it seem that scratchiti and graffiti are becoming more predominant lately? Is the T.A. not doing what they were in the past or are the vandals doing more?
Food for thought, just wondering.
Token Booth eliminated in Renovation of Tremont Ave Station.
TOKEN BOOTH REMOVED
Peace,
ANDEE
Lets see what little facts they ignored....
How will the 'physically challenged' who would need to use the gate get into a station without an elevator?
What about the closed-circuit TV cameras that are there and wired to the full-time booth?
The intercom on the service gate?
-Hank
And strollers.
They are or were illegal in the subway, and should be again if they are not. Having to bring a stroller inside is not an excuse.
One person's money got jammed in the machine. I guess she was too lazy to bother using the intercom to contact the agent.
I no longer use the booth in a station with vending machines. I no longer use stations without vending machines!
>>>They are or were illegal in the subway<<<
They were illegal
>>>...and should be again if they are not<<<
Why do you feel this way? I cannot imagine being a parent of a baby and having to carry the child around all day.
>>>One person's money got jammed in the machine. <<<
No, she did not receive her change..
Peace,
ANDEE
How can you navigate stairs with a stroller. You would have to take the baby out and then the stroller becomes extra barrage.
What is wrong with those things to hold the baby in front of one's chest (no really, I want to know if there's anything wrong, I've never used one).
What is wrong with those things to hold the baby in front of one's chest (no really, I want to know if there's anything wrong, I've never used one).
Nothing at all. My wife and I used one for all four of our children, and our older daughter has used one for her two boys as well. The one we had was adjustable so that, as the child got older, he/she could be positioned securely on our back as well. It was well made, of corduroy fabric, and has survived all four of our children plus our two grandsons. Washed and tucked away just recently, it awaits grandchild number three (for whom it will wait many years, we suspect).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I imagine that there is nothing wrong with them but, they still transfer the weight of the baby to you and could be tiring after a while.
Peace,
ANDEE
On our buses the policy is, if you can fold it, you can bring it on board. So, I don't see why the same can't apply underground.
BTW, you can bring a bike on a train .... if there's a gate to get in.
Mr t__:^)
Why should strollers be folded in trains? There's not as much space in buses, but there's plenty of space in trains(besides rush hour).
Yes, and with a stroller there is less space. Guess where those strollers end up:
Blocking the side doors.
Blocking the storm doors.
Blocking the railfan window (and therefore)
blocking the T/O cab.
Blocking the C/R cab.
On the 75' ers this isn't the problem, but they should definitely be banned from the IRT.
>>> but they [strollers] should definitely be banned from the IRT <<<
Do you also want to ban chairs with wheels on them for adults who cannot walk? If not, why do think it is right to ban chairs with wheels on them for infants who cannot walk?
Tom
This entrance has NO ELEVATORS.
Nobody in a wheelchair is going to use this station.
Apples and PUMPKINS. There's a major difference between the two. By law, wheelchairs MUST be accomodated, and in fact, on many trains space is specifically provided for them. Most adults who need to use these 'chairs with wheels' are a lot bigger than 2', 30lbs. If the kid can walk, there's no reason to bring a stroller. If you need to bring a FOLDED stroller, get a Snugli, and carry the kid in transit. When you get to the soccer game, then you put him in the stoller.
-Hank
Did I mention not during rush hours?
1. Blocking the side doors: There's plenty of space in front of the seats, why would they be next to the doors?
2-5. Blocking the storm doors, cabs, railfan windows : That's only if they sit in the priority seating. And there are only two spots per car where this can happen.
So, on a 10-car train only 40 seats cause problems (out of 440). No problems on the 75 footers. And chances are that the parent won't be standing because most trains are not crowded during non-rush hours.
"An Ode to Pork" is the title of an op-ed column in today's Times. What a disappointment when I discovered it's about Congressional spending and not our fellow SubTalker!
An Ode to Pork by Gail Collins.
I would like to know on what the car assignments will be for both the 63 St/Queens Blvd Connection & the flip-flop Manhattan Bridge for 2001.
Post any information you have on subtalk.
Would you please stop asking this question over and over? Read the replies to your prior inquiry on this.
Figures if he asks enough, he'll be the first to know!
My money's on you.
I have a term paper to write for my business course. I could use a little help with some details of the nyc subway system. I have to find out some logistics and history of the system and how the internal organizational structure is set up. I would appreciate any help that is offered. I had been told that the users of this website were knowledgeable and eager too help. My thanks in advance.
joebike99
Suggest you start at the History section on this site and once you get a good overview there, you will be able to ask specific questions which others on the message board can help answer.
Tom
tom,
thanks for the recommendation. will do.
joe
how the internal organizational structure is set up.
If by this you mean, the corporate structure, a quick scan of the MTA web site should get you that. Once there, click on "MTA leadership".
--Mark
mark,
i appreciate the website. the amount of info available is slightly overwhelming. i am sure i will muddle threw though.
thanks,
joe
That's why they call it 'homework'... :-)
Just a question, is this a college paper or a prisonhigh school paper?
its a college paper. but sometimes it feels like prison.
joe
Well it looks like we have an all New York world series. That's great, unless you live somewhere besides New York. I think that most americans will get quite pissed off at NY for completely stealing the world series and TV ratings will plummet because nobody cares. There might be a movement to form a new league that does not contain a team from New York because after all New York dosen't need other cities to compete with.
Because NYC is roughly split between the Mets and the Yankees I predict massive roiting. The police will be just as partisan and will be activly participating in the mayhem. The series will end after 3 games because both ball parcks will have been burnt down and city government will cease to function. In the ensueing power vaccume the Port Authority will sieze control and restore order. Because it is a bi-state agency nobody will be able to control it or stop it. Subway fares will be lowered to $1 and New York Port will enter a golden age as a semi-independant city-state with its own baseball league.
PS: I was just thiniking what would happen if NYC fell into complete disorder with the curreny government being destroyed or disabled. Someone I was with sugested that the PA would take over local government. Would it be a good thing? It would make for one heck of a short fiction story.
The Port Authority has no authority over the city, despite its name.
The state would take over.
And do you actually believe the bullshit that you wrote, or are you just trying to be funny (unsuccessfully).
Its more like wishful thinking.
There will be no Subway series. Why? Because the Mariners are going to kick some Yankee @$$, that's why!
From America's No. 1 Wired City (Yeah Right), Tacoma...
Abe
The Times was at one of the games and they interviewed some guy. They asked him if he looked forward to a subway series. He said I would love to see the Yankee fans have to ride the subway to Shea to see the Mariners beat the Mets in 7. Talk about optimisim.
If the Mariners beat the Yanks, they'll beat the Mets. The thing that bugs me about the Yankees is that they're too cocky about how great they are - they ARE one of the best teams in baseball right now but the cockiness doesn't enhance there image. The sad thing is that if the Yanks beat the Mariners, they'll probably beat the Mets too - and taht would suck. I don't wanna see the Yanks win again, they've won it enough already. Besides the Mariners winning would prove that they didn't need Griffey - i.e. Ken Junior, that whiney little bastard who plays for Cincinatti now....
Abe
Ahhhhh......the "Aroma of Tacoma" :-)
See, I knew the name "Spunky" fit you. I love fan spirit - no matter how misguided. Good luck tonight, Abe.
Yo, Spunky, the ***AWESOME***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S* will leave the mourners or whatever you call them as beached as Noah's Ark on Mt. Ararat after the flood. Seattle can be proud that they actually won a couple of games vs. the ***AWESOME***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S* (An october rarity) then LOOK OUT METS!!!
As I suspected, Subway Series fever will infect almost every aspect of life in NYC, even an obscure NYC railfan BBS. Why don't we just close down the city until it passes, cuz nothings gonna get done.
Go Mets
Yep, they're in. Bring on the Mets and watch 'em mash each other. I cant' wait to see what happens when these two teams meet for all the marbles. And I would LOVE to see what the subway trains look like full of wild and crazy fans.
Wayne
And I wish I could be there instead of 3000 miles away, but I will be glued to the TV set. My wife and I will not be going anywhere this weekend.
>>> My wife and I will not be going anywhere this weekend. <<<
Not even with free Red, Blue & Green lines?
Tom
Ugh, what a disgusting sign.
Fred, Wash your mouth out with chemicals, That "disgusting sign", as you called it, is the proud emblem of the BEST base ball team FOR all time, the ***AWESOME***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S*** who will D*E*S*T*R*O*Y the hapless mets in 5 games. THREEPEAT!
I feel like I'm being poisoned. Come on Mets fans, let's give the Sarge a good dose of hell.
Let's go back to Brighton-Sea Beach debates.:-)
Steve: I can't. It seems by pal Brighton Beach Bob has left the building. I haven't heard from him in three weeks. I hope he's ok and gets back online soon. Then we can resume our war.
With El Duque going tonite, and Petitte tomorrow, the yanks are surely gonna close it out. Sure Petitte was a little shaky last time he actually had some pressure put on him (Game 5 vs. Oakland), but Yanks wont need him, cause they're gonna win tonight. Duque is 7-0 in the playoffs, with an ERA of something like 1.53. Yanks are pumped for tonight's game, and are gonna kick some seattle @$$!!!!!!
Sorry Seatle,
Better luck next year!!
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
10/18/2000
[There will be no Subway series. Why? Because the Mariners are going to kick some Yankee @$$, that's why!
From America's No. 1 Wired City (Yeah Right), Tacoma...]
Abe
I like your prediction Spunky!! Maybe you can predict the completion date of our Second Avenue subway !
Bill "Newkirk"
The Mariners put up a helluva fight but face it, the #7 only goes as far west as Times Square.
Although the baseball railfan could'nt lose. Either there was a subway series or you heard the roar of the freight whistles at Safeco. Hmmm tough choice.........NOT!
Prediction: Mets in 7(not the flushing line).
Are you serious? Is this entire post Tongue-in-Cheek? Have you been taking lessons from heypaul?
As I said before this falls into the "I wish" category. I'd love to see NYC engulfed in roits and the PA taking control. PA's are omnipotent agencies that answer to nobody. Siezing control of a large metropolitan area would not be above them.
I think that a subway series would be great for New York since there hasn't been one since 1956. I've heard on WINS1010AM radio a few days ago that a subway series would bring $137,000,000 ($137 million) dollars into the economy of New York. Let's root for the Yankees and hope that they win and we'll have a SUBWAY SERIES!!!!
BMTJeff
Where would this money come from? Who will spend it? There won't be many tourists arriving to see the game as opposed to a World Series with two different cities. Is that just money that will be spent by fans that already live there? If that is the case, no new money will be brought into NYC.
As someone who knows how those figures are calculated, I can assure you that they are a fraud. Actually, a subway series will be devastating for New York City, because it will be used politically to build support for massive public subsidies for new stadiums. Might as well cancel the MTA capital plan after 2004.
The Mets are already talking like this. It would definately be a boon to some industries (ok, just the bars and restaurants with TV sets) But they'll lose on hotel stuff (no out-of-town families and sprtswriters) Nationally, the TV ratings will likely suck, except in places like Florida, California, and Arizona where there are large populations of former New Yorkers. Fox locally with get better rating then they've ever had, even for the Super Bowl.
-Hank
(It would definately be a boon to some industries (ok, just the bars and restaurants with TV sets)
Unless New Yorkers cut their savings rate even further, I don't expect much benefit. Money would have been spent anyway. Stadium employees and concessionaires will get more paydays, and the City and State will get taxes on the sales. Figure about $36 million in activity ($100 per seat for each of six games). That's about it. City and state taxes might be $3 million on that. You can't put a multiplier effect on the $36 million, because most of the sales will roll right out of state. Doesn't Major League Baseball get the gate receipts? Figure $5 million in extra payroll, excluding the ballplayers, most of whom live (and spend) elsewhere.
(But they'll lose on hotel stuff (no out-of-town families and sprtswriters))
The Jet Set that gets into such things, and suburbanites, would be in the city a few extra days, generating a few extra dollars. TV crews and media people will arrive, spending some money and generating some jobs. Can't be more than $10 million, with perhaps another $1 million in taxes.
(Nationally, the TV ratings will likely suck, except in places like Florida, California, and Arizona where there are large populations of former New Yorkers.)
Don't see the ratings affecting the economy here.
Screw the finances for a moment. The bottom line is that this is something that is very special. We may never see something like this for a very long time.
But back to the finance front, the City of New York will make out like a bandit. You figure $36 million. The City expects $137 million. I'll side with the city on this one. Most cities when they make it to the finals of any sport expect to make money for at least 2 days and as much as 4 if it goes the distance. The City of New York has the potential to reap the benefits of SEVEN GAMES!!! That's huge. New York is the largest media market in the world. THE WORLD! You have people who are New York fans from around the world who will make it over here simply because for the next two weeks, this is going to be the place to be. NYC will be electric. Larry, you think that only New Yorkers only care and will be the only people to support this series financially. YOU ARE SO WRONG!!!!! Do you honestly think that there are more Seattle supporters than Mets and Yankees supporters in the USA alone and not mentioning fans from abroad? Trust me, the city is going to roll in dough.
And FOX network is absolutely licking their chops and salivating. With the huge amount of ex-New Yorkers in Los Angeles who will be watching this game(I oughta know after living there 2 years) and the regular baseball fans who will be watching the series, they will have the top two markets all locked up. Also consider the curious who will be watching to see if a hockey game breaks out in the stands. The rating in New York alone not counting everywhere else guarantees a profitable series. And that's not even mentioning places like Florida and to a smaller scale Chicago. Pure profit.
I go to Europe every year. I cannot count how many New York jerseys, hats, etc. that I have seen. And that's in all major sports. The revenue potential is enormous with a subway series. Larry, after the series is over and the receipts are counted, you will realize that you were WAY WAY off base in this case.
I agree that this could be good for the city, but the revenue projections are still a fraud. For the good news, see the bottom.
(But back to the finance front, the City of New York will make out like a bandit. You figure $36 million. The City expects $137
million. I'll side with the city on this one. Most cities when they make it to the finals of any sport expect to make money for at
least 2 days and as much as 4 if it goes the distance. The City of New York has the potential to reap the benefits of SEVEN
GAMES!!! That's huge.)
I figured the fans would be spending $100 per seat at the ballpark for six games. If it were to go seven games, that would be $42 million. If they spent an average of $150 per seat, that would be $63 million.
(You have people who are New York fans from around the world who will make it over here simply because for the next two weeks, this is going to be the place to be. NYC will be electric.)
It would be nice if more could come, but New York City has a crunching shortage of hotel rooms -- fewer in New York than in Chicago, a smaller city -- and sky-high room rates. It's really hurting our ability to attract visitors. If people come for the games, the will merely displace other visitors. Maybe they'll bid the room rates up further ($500 a night for a lousy room?). But would those windfall profits stay in the New York area and benefit NY Metro residents? Would they lead to more jobs or income? Unlikely.
(Larry, you think that only New Yorkers only care and will be the only people to support this series financially. YOU ARE SO WRONG!!!!! Do you honestly think that there are more Seattle supporters than Mets and Yankees supporters in the USA alone and not mentioning fans from abroad? Trust me, the city is going to roll in dough.)
From what? Subway series T-shirts printed here and sold in South Florida?
(And FOX network is absolutely licking their chops and salivating. The rating in New York alone not counting everywhere else guarantees a profitable series.)
Will that lead to more employment? Will the extra profits be concentrated among city residents?
(Screw the finances for a moment. The bottom line is that this is something that is very special. We may never see something like
this for a very long time.)
OK, there is one big benefit here: PR. Established people, and established businesses, are always moving out of New York City for less expensive and congested places. The City owes its prosperity to it's ability to attract the young, the entreprenuer, the immigrant, etc. who want to live, at least for a time, in such a vibrant place.
Let's assume the media covering the series presents the City as such a place. It will make that baseball loving immigrant, that entreprenuer, that college student with scarce skills, that potential tourist, more likely to want to come here. It would be like a huge commercial for the City, AND (given the theme) for the subway. Television images of normal people riding the subway around town, and not being stalked by rapists and killers, would do much for the subway's reputation, which still suffers from 1970s movies. I'd value the benefit to the City as equal to the cost of advertizing during the World Series. The City will be advertized, as a place to live, visit, and do business, for free.
This is the (only) real benefit of sports, or of having the Olympics. Intellegent people understand this, although they make up economic benefit to sell their interests. Let's just say memos to the Mayor on the economic benefits of stadiums from THIS office have been clear on this point, although the Mayor has preferred to use made up numbers from EDC.
Note, however, that the PR of a major sporting event can backfire. Atlanta hoped for an Olympic coming out party, and got a bomb. The Bay area had a BART series, but millions saw not a beautiful place to live but an earthquake. In the 1977 World Series in New York, the cameras were turned north to show arson fires burning down the Bronx, as disturbed New York native Howard Cosell announced "the Bronx is Burning!" to tens of millions of people. Let's see how we do.
OK, there is one big benefit here: PR. Established people, and established businesses, are always moving out of New York City for less expensive and congested places. The City owes its prosperity to it's ability to attract the young, the entreprenuer, the immigrant, etc. who want to live, at least for a time, in such a vibrant place.
Let's assume the media covering the series presents the City as such a place. It will make that baseball loving immigrant, that entreprenuer, that college student with scarce skills, that potential tourist, more likely to want to come here. It would be like a huge commercial for the City, AND (given the theme) for the subway.
Call me cynical, but I suspect these "advertising" benefits will be modest. People expect to see the host city's good side shown during any major sporting event. Sydney certainly must have slums, but you sure didn't see them during the Olympics. Heck, I remember seeing the closed-circuit broadcast of the Ali-Frazier "Rumble in the Jungle" fight from Zaire back in the early 1970's. It made Kinshasa look modern and prosperous!!
Heck, I remember seeing the closed-circuit broadcast of the Ali-Frazier "Rumble in the Jungle" fight from Zaire back in the early 1970's. It made Kinshasa look modern and prosperous!!
That's now in The Congo formerly known as Zaire. As opposed to the Congo always known as Congo.
I presume that was Belgian Congo when I was in school.
It seems to me that BOTH were the Belgian Congo, but definitely at least TCFKA Zaire.
Get me a Rand-Mcnally Atlas---and quick. Oh, there's one next door.
And most of Central Africa was French Equatorial Africa and French West Aftica. Angola and Mozambique were Portuguese colonies (overseas provinces was the PC term used by the Portuguese). Anglo-Egyptian Sudan was the country south of Egypt.
It seems to me that BOTH were the Belgian Congo, but definitely at least TCFKA Zaire.
The "little" Congo, the one whose capital is Brazzaville, was not Belgian. It was the southernmost part of French Equatorial Africa. Interestingly, the "big" Congo was not actually a Belgian colony for most of its pre-independence era; it was, believe it or not, the private property of the Belgian king.
Have you considered all the overtime the NYPD will be putting in? And top that off with the sure-to-occur violence by fans all over the city. It's already started. It's not the 50's anymore. No one gives a shit about anybody else, and parents don't discipline their children. Remember the '98 parade? "We're representing New Jersey!" said the asshole children on live TV, after destroying the property of others.
-Hank
Take my words for it, the country is going to go wild over this Subway Series. It can't miss. There are a lot of ex New Yorkers all over the country and they will see to it that their friends and neighbors fall into line. The Yankees vs the Mets? A natural.
New York is certain to go bonkers if it hasn't started already. I can't believe I'm going to be right in the thick of it. It's bound to be unforgettable. I've already asked my folks to tape the games while I'm away. This sort of thing may not happen again during our lifetimes.
The TA is likely to rake in a few extra bucks in token and Metrocard sales as well. Want to bet they'll be including camera shots of fans getting off at 161st St. and Willets Point?
Say, Fred, did you ever go to a World Series game at Ebbets Field?
I went to Ebbets Field many times from 1947-1954, but never to a World Series game. Tickets were so hard to come by there and, besides, most of the games were in the afternoon and I was in school. Weekend tickets were impossible to get.
Things like that are why night games are better, purists be DAMNED.
To quote Bob Costas (the one thing he got right during his Yankee telecast) "It's 11 minutes after midnight. What most kids will remember about this series is what they see on SportsCenter."
-Hank
Well, there's something that people have today that they didn't have in the 40s or 50s.
VCRs, or even Tivo. The problem however, is you have to completely isolate yourself before watching the game, otherwise it's not as interesting.
I believe the reason they end the games so late is to benefit the fans living in the other time zones. The games now end at around 11 in Chicago and 9 in Los Angeles which is absolutely perfect for them.
If you made it so that the games ended at 10:30 in the east, the people out west would complain that the games end too early(7:30) and during dinner time at that.
I remember when I lived in LA and looked forward to when the Kings played the NY Rangers at the Garden(GO RANGERS!). When the game started in New York, it was at 4:30 in the afternoon and ended by 6:45. When you're working, this schedule really stinks cause by the time you get home, the game is over so you're forced to listen to it on the radio(if you can) which is not the same as watching it.
The way they have it now, the WS games are in primetime in all time zones so that means more $$$. And you don't hear the purists yelling about late playoff games out west now do you?
They end late because the games make the most TV money in Prime Time, defined as 8pm to 11pm E/P, and 7pm-10pm C/M. Unfortunately, this causes a problem in drawing younger fans, since they games are only in the second inning at 9pm. (8pm start is actually an 8:20 first pitch)
-Hank
>>> This sort of thing [Subway Series] may not happen again during our lifetimes. <<<
If it does not occur again in your lifetime, it won't be the Yankee's fault. :-) When I was growing up in NYC during the late ‘40s and early ‘50s, the real news was when there was not a Subway Series.
Tom
Old Tom:
I seems that a subway series was quite frequent in the 1940s and the 1950s From the period of 1940 thru 1956 there were 8 subway series which took place in 1941, 1947, 1949, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1955, and 1956.
BMTJeff
It also seems that in that time there were only 14 teams in all of baseball, (NL-Chicago, Cincinatti, Boston/Milwaukee, St. Louis, New York, Brooklyn, and Philadelphia; AL-Chicago, Cleveland, Boston, St. Louis/Baltimore, New York, Washington, and Philadelphia/Kansas City) and once you signed a contract with a team, they were the only ones who could resign you. Jackie Robison retired rather than be traded to the Giats after the '56 season.
-Hank
There were eight. You forgot the NL Pirates and AL Tigers.
Chances of Subway series before 1958 season: 1/32
Chances of Subway series now: 1/224
These are simple calculations from the number of teams at the time. They don't take into account other factors.
Pork: The Other White Meat
That would bring the total number of teams to 16 which were the only Major League Baseball teams up until 1958.
BMTJeff
I felt like I was forgetting something. First expansion, I believe, was 1961, when the Senators (I) moved to Minnesota and a new team delivered to Washington, and the Angels appeared in Los Angeles. NL expansion followed in '62, with the Mets and Colt 45's (Astros) Interesting that they met in the '86 ALCS.
Next expansion was '69, with the Royals, Padres, Expos and Seattle Pilots (Milwaukee Brewers (II)). '77 expansion was the Blue Jays and Seattle Mariners. '93 was the Rockies and Marlins, and '98 the Diamondbacks and Devil Rays.
Moves were the Original Brewers to St. Louis (Browns) in '02 (then to Baltimore in '54), the Original Orioles in '02 to NY (Highlanders/Yankees), Braves from Boston to Milwaukee in '53, (then to Atlanta in '66) Athletics from Philly to KC in '54 (then to Oakland in '68) Giants and Dodgers to San Fran and LA in '57, the original Senators to Minnesota in '61, LA Angels to Anaheim in '65, the Pilots after their only horrid season in Seattle in '69 to Milwaukee, the second Senators to Texas in '72 (the last team to move geographically).
-Hank
No argument there. One other thing you have to remember is back in those days there were no divisional playoffs or LCS. The two teams which clinched the pennant in their respective leagues simply met in the World Series and that was it. It's not so easy these days. Now you've got what amounts to an Elite Eight and a Final Four before the Big Enchilada.
Not entirely true. The Giants and Dodgers played numerous extra games (either a best-of-three or a single game) to untie the National League....
"THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT! THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT! THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT!"
Only the most famous home run and radio call in the history of New York baseball. Yes, even more so then any of the Yankee perfect games and the Grand Slam Single by Ventura in '99 that STILL gives me chills...
-Hank
You're just bitter than the gutless hick scrubs Braves were swept in the division series!
I'm not bitter, baseball is a boring sport, but I'm still a Braves fan. I'd like to see if the Mets ever make it to the NLCS 2 years in a row. Fat chance they'll ever make it 9 years in a row like the Braves. Hope you enjoy the Mets in the World Series this year, because it'll be a while before it happens again! Besides Rocker, how many hick scrubs can you name on the Braves?
Bobby Bonilla.
-Hank
They did make it to the NLCS two years in a row, 1999 and 2000.
3TM
Aww, man, you're right, I was thinking it was the divison series that the Mets got knoked out of the playoffs last year.
Make that 3 years in a row then :)
Isn't it funny that after John Rocker made fun of the 7 train that now the whole world will be hearing about the 7 train for the next two weeks? Maybe Rocker should retire and become one of those 900 line psychic readers.
You tell him, Pigs!:-)
Well it looks like i can catch the Bus to the amtrak station instead of having to go thru hell trying to catch my train back to nyc !!
& we leave union station this thursday the 19th of october !!
Whew!! just in time for me !!
Can someone post a list of all mismated pairs of NYC subway cars (R32 and others)? Maybe this info could be put on the FAQ.
Wayne posted just such a list within the last week!
Where's the link?
Never mind. Found it myself. R-32 Mismated pairs
Now that the R32 cars are taken care of, how about the other classes? I'm sure that there are a few in the other classes (R36 cars 9348 and 9411 were temporarily together, but are now back with their respective mates).
Never mind that one either.
What's that they say about talking to yourself - when you start to answer back, that's when you need to worry? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm a little behind, here it is if you really haven't found it!
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=157693
Help!! I am in need of a copy of The Evolution of the Subway Cars published by the transit museum. If you have one that you could sell or lend to me I would greatly appreciate it. Please email me.
For NYCTA:
238 St on the 1, exit-only N/B side
145 St on the 3, exit-only N/B side
For MBTA:
Ashmont on the Red Line, "exit-only" on S/B side
Wonderland on the Blue Line, "exit-only" on E/B side
For SEPTA:
Millbourne on MFL, exit-only W/B side
(abandoned) Spring Garden on Spur (?)
Any others that fit on this list?
Nick
Sorry! For NYC those stations now have HEETs which allow entry with a MetroCard.
"Sorry! For NYC those stations now have HEETs which allow entry with a MetroCard."
Are you sure? As of about 6 months ago, 238 Street on the 1 did not have MetroCard HEETs. All of the stations from 207 to 231 have them northbound, but 238 does not.
When Chicago's Jackson Park "L" operated to Stony Island Avenue, the following stations for eastbound trains on 63rd Street were exit only: South Park (King Drive), Cottage Grove, and University. If my faulty memory serves, Dorchester had an island platform. Signs were posted advising passengers to use 63rd Street buses.
the path train at 33 steet the side platforms on tracks 1 and 3 are exit only. also the upper platform at newark is exit only.
the newark subway at penn station is exit only also
The last stop of the 'F', 179th Street, is an exit-only island platform between two tracks. This would be the 'outbound' platform if the line were to go further east, which it was originally slated to do. After passengers are kicked off, the train moves east past a crossover, reverses direction and comes into the inbound platform to receive passengers.
The elevated terminals at Van Cortlandt, Woodlawn, 241st Street and Pelham Bay have unused side platforms that used to be for exit only, but this practice was discontinued some time ago.
Does anyone have any pictures of the abandoned Spring Garden station on the Ridge Spur? (both pre-1991 and post-1991)
Thanks!
Nick
Does anyone know in how many occasions SEPTA has tried to totally abandon this portion of the Broad St Line?
When was the most recent attempt?
Also, what exactly were the stumbling blocks against total abandonment? (My guess is that Chinatown station stood in the way)
Nick
You don't want to mess with China Town. They even managed to block that new stadium at 12th and Vine. Just like Jackie Chan, you can't defeat them and I think they do their own stunts.
SEPTA keeps trying to abandon the Ridge Spur. Would it kill them to even consider making real improvements to it. They could convert several bus lines in north and northwest Philly and have them converge on Ridge Avenue and enter the Ridge subway tunnel through a portal near Broad and Fairmount and enter Center City through the tunnel rather than use the very narrow north-south numbered streets. I guess that's why they're SEPTIC.
I can't think of any formal attempts by SEPTA to abandon the Spur. In typical SEPTA 'water it down to nothing' style, it has cut service way back over the years, closed stations at Spring Garden and Fairmount, removed Sunday service, offered the free transfer between the El and Subway at City Hall but not at 8th & Market (when this was done in '79, reports of the Spur's demise were coming like crazy), and various other measures, but nothing has managed to kill it. I doubt that Chinatown would get too upset if the Spur were abandoned, given that it really doesn't bring too many people into or out of Chinatown, but who knows. The Spur closed for a couple of years in the early '80's while the Commuter Tunnel was under construction (and directly interfering with it), with a bus replacement, but it came back afterward with the newly revitalized Chinatown station.
SEPTA often notes that the Spur is a line that doesn't carry its weight, revenue-wise, but I haven't heard of any plans to totally abandon service. About the worst I've ever heard is to whittle the line down to either rush-hour or daylight service (and it's effectively the latter with today's headways). It is a fairly decent carrier in peak hours but I think it could be even better if the free transfer to/from the El at 8th St were effected. Given the recent 'renaissance' of the eastern side of Center City as an employment area, the implementation of the free transfer would beef up the line, provide a quicker route to this side of town, and take some heat off the overtaxed City Hall/15th St Subway/El interface.
They also closed Fairmount on the Spur?
How long ago was that? AFAIK, Fairmount on the Spur is open again. However, I am very unsure of the ridership on that station is, even that, it is probably a very low figure indeed.
Nick
The Broad-Ridge Spur operates Monday-Saturday and makes the following stops:
Fern Rock(limited weekday service, all day Sat.)
Olney
Erie
North Philadelphia
Girard
Fairmount
Chinatown
8th/Market
You did not answer my question in the intended way...
If Fairmount on the Ridge-Spur was closed, during what years was that station closed?
Nick
It would probably be a good idea to keep the spur to a peak hour operation. I have not seen many midday riders on the spur. But if it is peak hour operation, its first trip should be, at least, the 3:05 PM departure from Olney. That train, as is the 3:21 departure, are packed with students.
I seem to notice that during the height of the peak, counting Ridge Expresses and regular expresses, there are twice as many trains operating on the express track as on the local track. It seems as if during peak, all southbound locals meet with an express at Erie, and a spur at Girard, which makes 2 trains to 1. During middays, this is not the case. But I would imagine that the express tracks have a higher capacity than do the local tracks.
Here is the article MSNBC
I certainly hope the strike is over. I can't heap too much praise on Rev. Jesse Jackson, who apparently is the catalyst for reaching a settlement. I'll refrain from further comment on the principals involved, until ratification occurs and settlement details are revealed. On a personal note, I hoped to lose ten pounds during the strike; that goal hasn't been reached. But I will certainly be glad to be on the trains again.
* I posted on this right when this first happened right here pasadena california at the same hilton hotel my class of 1070 high school re-union was.I must give "run jessie run" his just due he brought this to an end !!
I am not a "keep hope alive" fan at all, just that he deserves all of the credit for bringing what our useless do nothing mayor & the MTA staff did us in on & brought this crap on in the first place !!
I support the union against the MTA & the crappy mayor yvonne burke etc. !!!
my class of 1070 high school re-union
Man, you ARE old.
1070?? i said 1970 !!!!
Maybe you said 1970, but your typing finger said 1070, old timer. Look it up.
no time to argue heading to the AMTRAK Union Station all abord & to the last of the redbirds !! (remember when you get as old as my age)
then you will be born in 1070 & 1970 & not 1959 november 3 NYC !!!
Cant wait to meet south ferry in person he will do a video interview!
after the end of the first week of november we can go back to fussing & fighting ( whatever ) hold down subtalk while the los angeles rail system man with his machine gun camcorder graces you all with his grand re-appearence in nyc !! ( count your blessings ) & smile folks!
MAN AM I EVER GOING TO HAVE A GOOD OLD TIME !!!!!!
@ go redbirds for the last time !!! ( on tape ) !!!!!
It is good news that the strike is over, and this weekend will be a good time to railfan the system since the MTA is providing free rides for a week. I might even take the bus downtown tomorrow.
The statement by the union's general chairman, James Williams, "Make no mistake about it, we won," rings a little hollow. The terms of the agreement have not yet been made public, but it appears the MTA got the right to hire more part time drivers which will reduce the regular overtime that some of the union members have been living on. The main goal of the MTA was the reduction of scheduled overtime. The salary increases the union won had been conceded by the MTA right from the beginning.
Tom
According to NARP, the announcement with all of the details regarding the launch of Acela Express, including the first date, fares, and schedules will be made by Amtrak at Union Station in Washington tomorrow, October 18.
Is this open to the public? If so, when is the announcement and where in the station?
Sorry. The short message I received did not contain these details. I wish I knew. If I did, I'd surely let you know!
It probably won't matter. Tomorrow I'll bet Amtrak will anounce that the ACELA anouncement meeting has been postponed until the 20th.
Just got this press release of Amtrak's web site:
National Railroad Passenger Corporation
60 Massachusetts Avenue, N.E., Fourth Floor
Washington, D.C. 20002-4285
www.amtrak.com
MEDIA ADVISORY
Contact: : Karina Van Veen
202-906-3860
October 17, 2000
AMTRAK TO ANNOUNCE LAUNCH OF ACELA EXPRESS
Washington, DC -Tomorrow Amtrak will announce the launch date for
Acela Express service. At an event at Washington Union Station, Amtrak
officials will provide detailed information about train schedules, fares, ticket
sales and the date for a ceremonial inaugural run.
Acela Express will make history as America's first high-speed rail service.
Traveling at speeds up to 150 mph, the anticipation of Acela Express has
sparked a national passenger rail renaissance.
What
Acela Express Announcement
Where
Washington Union Station -
Gate F
60 Massachusetts Ave., NE
Washington, DC 20002
When
Wednesday, October 18, 2
p.m.
Who
Amtrak Board Members
Amtrak President and CEO
George D. Warrington
Senator William V. Roth, Jr.
(R-Del.)
Senator Frank R. Lautenberg
(D-N.J.)
Can you provide a link? I just searched their site and couldn't find this release anywhere.
Here is an aticle from todays NY Daily News,
ACELA
Peace,
ANDEE
Its right on the front under the "Featured this Week" thing.
Or it was. Just checked and its been taken down.
After I got the message from NARP, I searched all over Amtrak.com for this yesterday, and then today after I read your post. I guess it was only up for a short time. Looks like we may have been led on again. IMHO, some PR guys should be fired at Amtrak...
When I open the page http://www.amtrak.com, it takes me to http://www.amtrak.com/index3.html. On this webpage is an an "ad" which changes every time you access tha page, plus their regular menu. When I pass my mouse-pointer over the ad, the yellow description pops up "Featured This Week." Also, the only thing under the ad is a link for the Amtrak Promise. Even with a search, I can't find the press release. What does the location bar on your page read when viewing the release? "http://....."? I guess I'll have to type it in directly.
Yesterday's announcment was a MEDIA ADVISORY and meant for the press, to alert them of today's press conference, not the general public. This is probably why it is not up on the Web site.
Today's announcement is meant for the public, so I would assume we'll see something on the Web site soon.
I thought it might be something like that, since I got it through NARP. But then how did WMATAMOGH find it on the web?
Acutally, you had to be invited to get in so this was for the press only. Someone else is going to have to tell us the details (or I can listen to WTOP). I couldn't even see where they were announcing the details from either the concourse or the enterance to the MARC trains. I did get pictures of the PIMS on the MetroRail, the Orion VI, and rode the NEW L4 for the first time.
>>http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A32666-2000Oct18?language=printer<<
Wash Post
Hey BMTman, can some of the elevated slated for removal from the Pacific street area be reused, about 300 ft. for a platform to perch 2 redbirds behind the centerfield fence at Shea, and 2 R/44s over the old bleacher area at Yankee Stadium? A real fitting Monument to the Millinium Subway Series.
avid
In the World Series history, the competitions between New York teams are called the Subway Series.
The Brooklyn Dodgers-Yankees series happened in 1941, 1947, 1949, 1952, 1953, 1955, 1956. They were the real Subway Series.
The NY Giants-Yankees series happened in 1921, 1922, 1923, 1936, 1937, and 1951. Polo Grounds and Yankee Stadium were connected by Polo Grounds Shuttle. However, Polo Grounds Shuttle was an el. I have a hard time call the Giant-Yankees series "Subway Series." El Series are more appropriate.
Chaohwa
But from '36 on you could call it a subway series 'cause the CONCOURSE IND was open, correct? I know, you could walk it too!
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks, Andee. I should have known about the Concourse IND.
Chaohwa
Wasn't it called the Nickel Series at one point?
>>> I have a hard time call the Giant-Yankees series "Subway Series." El Series are more appropriate. <<<
You missed the point of the name "Subway Series". It is not that traveling between the ballparks could be done by Subway, (or El for the Polo Grounds and Yankee Stadium) but the fact that the local fans of both teams could attend all the games of the Series with no other transportation than the Subway.
Tom
Hi, everyone! My last vacation of the year was last week, so I tried to get in some good expeditions that would be difficult on weekends. I figured I'd post my experiences every night, but would succumb to exhaustion before my wife would finally relinquish the computer to me.
Unfortunately I couldn't make Branford this year, as my wife had me committed- er, she made a committment for us for Saturday the 7th. With most Subtalkers apparently going up on Saturday due to the early Sunday holiday curfew, I figured it wouldn't be any fun to go up there and not see many people I knew.
On Wednesday the 11th I bused (Q44-BX9) up to Fordham for the six-thirty something train to New Haven that would connect to the Waterbury shuttle at Bridgeport. The northbound Fordham platform, and my train, were absolutely packed with a mixture of college students (off at New Rochelle), domestics (off at Larchmont and Mamaroneck) and yuppies (off at Rye and Greenwich into waiting corporate SUVs.). High school students took over in Connecticut, with a huge number of plaid-skirted girls getting on at Noroton Heights, off at Green's Farm; and an equal number of lacrosse stick-totin' boys from East Norwalk to Fairfield.
Fortunately, as we approached Bridgeport, I learned we would be riding an actual train- not a school bus or van up Route 8 to Waterbury- as had happened the three other times I tried to do this. It was a Bombardier locomotive pulling two cars, only one of which was open to passengers. This diesel must have hit about 70 along the main line through Stratford before peeling off along the Houstanic (sp?) River. There appears to be construction of luxury housing between the ROW and the river for several miles before the line took on a heavily industrial tone most of the rest of the way. The intermediate towns looked pretty weatherbeaten, unlike the mostly stereotypical 'rich' Connecticut settlements seen along the main line. Only Seymour seemed to have much of a life, and even there a lot of vacant storefronts were seen.
We had a 50-minute hangover at Waterbury, so I set out in search of breakfast and bathroom. This required a long walk along West Main Street past a Department of Labor daily hiring hall with very few people outside, many churches and shuttered bodegas, but no eateries. Finally, at what looked like the heart of downtown at a crazy five-way intersection, was a partially completed mini-mall that offered creature comforts. The walk back along Grand Street past courts and government offices was noticeably more cheery. Next to the 'station'-just a platform- was a spectacular building that houses the local newspaper, but led me to wonder if this was the original station.
The trip back to Bridgeport was equally speedy, and the ten-minute wait for the mainline electric connection afforded some nice views of the harbor, the traffic on I-95 and the 'transit center'- a multi-level parking garage with bus lanes on ground level. Funny, but exit signs along 95 seem to indicate that the bus terminal, train station and ferry terminal are all combined, but on close inspection the ferry looks to be about a mile away- although all the construction in the area made it hard to tell.
In an effort to stay awake, I tried for the railfan window in the electric, but was politely brushed back by a man who was apparently studying for his conductor or engineer's test- he had a huge loose-leaf binder filled with what looked like track maps. After changing yet again at Stamford for the local back to Fordham, I did get the front window, but had to endure the noise of two mothers going to a Broadway show with about seven grade-school looking girls from Cos Cob on. Is October 11 some kind of school holiday in Greenwich?
I had planned to go to Staten Island or the HBLR after this, but forgot my clip-on shades and was too tired besides.
Drove to Atlantic City Thursday, leaving at 5:00 a.m. It's beautiful to see the sun rise over Raritan Bay! Driving the Pulaski Skyway in predawn darkness is another matter altogether.
Well, here comes to boss- I'll have to detail Wassaic in a subsequent post. Aren't you all excited?
-and so, on Friday the 13th, I set out to ride the new Harlem Line extension to Wassaic which would be doublly interesting as I had not been past Brewster since 1989. The first train I could logically get would be late enough (7:39) so I could comfortably take the subway and bus to Williamsbridge for the local to White Plains, then the connection to Brewster North for the diesel to Wassaic.
On the way, I changed from the '4' to the 'B' at Yankee Stadium. The ugly, dangerous and eternal- at least three years- construction on both levels and in the mezzanine certainly don't put the subways in a favorable light for all the people who will be using them for the World Series- sorry, Siemens 6000! You have to wonder if people, having tried to negotiate the narrow, cluttered detours before and after a game decided the heavy traffic was less torturous. I'm surprised Steinbrenner has had nothing to say about THIS!
While waiting at Williamsbridge, a very strange-looking electric train stopped at the inbound platform instead of the expected M-3. Its boxy design, warbling sounds while idling, and loud, labored acceleration was extremely reminiscent of the recently retired LIRR diesels. Could it be that these oddballs are used only in rush hour for Bronx local service? According to the timetable, this one originated in Fleetwood, the second stop in Westchester, and made every intermediate stop, including Melrose.
Why go out of Williamsbridge? Because there's no ticket office or machine there, and when I rode a northbound morning train to Bronxville last year (for the bizarre purpose of walking the Bronx River Greenway all the way to Valhalla), no conductor 'got' me. I figured maybe I could ride free to White Plains and use the twelve-minute hangover to buy the ticket to Wassaic. Alas, my miserly ways didn't pan out, because the conductor came around before we reached Woodlawn.
As expected, this train was also mobbed with reverse commuters and students, most of whom stayed on all the way to White Plains- although there was a noticeable discharge at Bronxville. For a population of around 50,000- roughly the same as Hicksville- White Plains' downtown makes it look like a city of a few hundred thousand. A huge bus terminal next to the station and the presence of many high-rises would foster such a perception. Unfortunately, the station itself only had a Dunkin' Donuts whose line was going out the door, and a newstand whose proprietor was more interested in selling Lotto than taking my eighty-nine cents in exact change for a Drakes' coffee cake. Unlike at many LIRR stations, there was no 'roach coach' outside.
The ride to Brewster North turns rural rather quickly, and despite popular stereotype, there ARE grade crossings in Westchester County. Many butt right up against the Taconic Road-With-Traffic-Lights-Referred-To-As-A-Parkway. Strangely, when electric service was extended north, all the stations from North White Plains to Brewster North were given single island platforms connected to the outside world by elevators. This was probably done either to save money, to comply with ADA regulations, or both.
On one sign at Chappaqua, some wit had spray-painted 'Home of Hilari Clinton, our next governer'. In the posh town square next to Mount Kisco station, what looked like day laborers (casual dress, cigarette in one hand, coffee in the other) could be seen waiting. This sight seemed very out of place in 'posh' upper Westchester, as it's something that's become associated with working-class Queens and Long Island. But then, the area probably has loads of construction sites (for luxury housing, no doubt) and estates with fancy gardens that attract contractors and their 'clients'. I wonder if Mount Kisco has become another Farmingville- multiple immigrants crammed into rented houses- or these guys came from less wealthy towns (White Plains, Yonkers, Peekskill, Ossining) by bus.
After Katonah, the scenery turns much too countrified for an electric commuter train. A deer was seen grazing by Purdy's, and the fall foliage was much further along than in the city. After the switch in Brewster North, a very speedy Bombardier locomotive took us into yet more bucolic climes. One thing for sure: the electrified Harlem line and/or the job market in White Plains are hugely successful, because every parking lot was packed to the gills all the way up to Pawling.
Starving and sleepy, I hoped the new Wassaic station would have some commerce near it. Along most of the diesel run, we were closely parallel to Route 22, which seemed to have many convenience stores along it. After happily seeing a small cluster of stores and the Wassaic post office, I was chagrined to see that the train wasn't slowing down in the least. Instead it kept on for another couple of miles until its terminal hard by 22 with absolutely no buildings or civilization anywhere around- just a small parking lot and maintenance shed. I had experienced this desparately-in-need-of-food-and-caffiene-at-a-secluded-terminal syndrome last year at Montauk, and years earlier at Gladstone. In every case, it was too early or not enough time to have a pizza delivered to the station for the return trip.
I blew an extra buck fifty for a through ticket back to Grand Central rather than changing twice and getting off in the Bronx- all the eateries around Williamsbridge and Fordham would be mobbed with lunchtime high school kids- so I would have more dining options and have more time for the HBLR and an exploration of Jersey City/Newport. The front car in the electric out of Brewster North was closed off, so I had to sit all the way back. Fortunately, a loud, profane cell phone conversation between a woman and her mate all the way from Bedford Hills into the Bronx kept me awake.
More later- I've got typist's cramp.
As expected, this train was also mobbed with reverse commuters and students, most of whom stayed on all the way to White Plains- although there was a noticeable discharge at Bronxville. For a population of around 50,000- roughly the same as Hicksville- White Plains' downtown makes it look like a city of a few hundred thousand. A huge bus terminal next to the station and the presence of many high-rises would foster such a perception. Unfortunately, the station itself only had a Dunkin' Donuts whose line was going out the door, and a newstand whose proprietor was more interested in selling Lotto than taking my
eighty-nine cents in exact change for a Drakes' coffee cake. Unlike at many LIRR stations, there was no 'roach coach' outside.
I've noticed the lack of amenities on the occasions (none within the past few years) when I've used White Plains station. There must be some sort of political deals which prevent more businesses from opening up in and around the station. There's certainly enough activity at the station to support much more.
Downtown White Plains isn't quite as economically healthy as it might appear. At least as of a few years ago, there were many vacant storefronts and a lot of empty spaces in the office buildings you noticed. The area was hit fairly hard by corporate mergers in the early to middle 1990's and may not yet have recovered fully (note Chevron's pending takeover of Texaco, whose to-be-vacated HQ is in a suburban part of town). Granted, my personal knowledge of the area's economy is a bit out of date, but from what I've read Westchester County still has some lingering woes, more than the other big suburban counties ringing NYC.
One thing Westchester does have is diversity. Mount Vernon and parts of Yonkers are basically extensions of the Bronx; White Plains, New Rochelle and downtown Yonkers are major urban cores; Bronxville, Scarsdale and others are properous railroad-era inner suburbs; Chappaqua (ick!), Pound Ridge and others are prosperous exurbs; and much of the county's northern edge is out-and-out rural. About all that Westchester lacks to a significant extent are the big expanses of middle-class postwar tract housing that you'll see all over the landscape on Long Island and in parts of New Jersey. There's no Levittown of Westchester, in short.
The ride to Brewster North turns rural rather quickly, and despite popular stereotype, there ARE grade crossings in Westchester County. Many butt right up against the Taconic Road-With-Traffic-Lights-Referred-To-As-A-Parkway.
Saw Mill Parkway. The Taconic's farther west, not near any rail lines.
Speaking of grade crossings, the Harlem Line train I was riding on in late 1996 or early 1997 smashed into a car at one of those crossings, just south of Bedford Hills. An elderly female driver had somehow become confused and went around closed crossing gates, the last thing that she was ever to do.
In the posh town square next to Mount Kisco station, what looked like day laborers (casual dress, cigarette in one hand, coffee in the other) could be seen waiting. This sight seemed very out of place in 'posh' upper Westchester, as it's something that's become associated with working-class Queens and Long Island. But then, the area probably has loads of construction sites (for luxury housing, no doubt) and estates with fancy gardens that attract contractors and their 'clients'. I wonder if Mount Kisco has become another Farmingville- multiple immigrants crammed into rented houses- or these guys came from less wealthy towns (White Plains, Yonkers, Peekskill, Ossining) by bus.
Most of them do live in and around Mt. Kisco, in a Farmingville-style arrangement. Some sections of the town have relatively cheap housing, though you wouldn't guess it from the downtown. As far as I know, there's been some controversy around their presence, but nothing like what there is out in Suffolk.
One thing for sure: the electrified Harlem line and/or the job market in White Plains are hugely successful, because every parking lot was packed to the gills all the way up to Pawling.
Many of those people using the lots may have come from quite some distance. In particular, commuters from Danbury, Ridgefield and nearby areas in western Connecticut frequently drive into Westchester and Putnam counties to get the Harlem line, as that's generally a faster option than taking Metro North directly from Danbury. And if you look in the parking lots at Dover Plains and Wasaaic, according to rumor you'll see quite a few cars with Massachusetts plates.
The strange electric was an ACMU, my favorite still-running MUs. There are about 85 cars, these are left over from NY Central days and still have manual doors and reversible seats. Almost every car has a bathroom, except for phone and handicapped accessible cars (bathrooms were removed). They get used on express runs too, but haven't seen anything north of North White Plains in years. They're also on some Hudson line trains, both express and local. Almost all ACMU trips are peak, except for I think one early in the morning.
Fortunately, as we approached Bridgeport, I learned we would be riding an actual train- not a school bus or van up Route 8 to Waterbury- as had happened the three other times I tried to do this. It was a Bombardier locomotive pulling two cars, only one of which was open to passengers. This diesel must have hit about 70 along the main line through Stratford before peeling off along the Houstanic
(sp?) River. There appears to be construction of luxury housing between the ROW and the river for several miles before the line took on a heavily industrial tone most of the rest of the way. The
intermediate towns looked pretty weatherbeaten, unlike the mostly stereotypical 'rich' Connecticut settlements seen along the main line. Only Seymour seemed to have much of a life, and even there a lot of vacant storefronts were seen.
The so-called Valley Towns - Derby, Shelton, Ansonia and Seymour - have long been, if not quite the butt of jokes, the target of some mirth due to their unlovely appearances and Joe Sixpack lifestyles. As you saw, they're all pretty drab today, although (not surprisingly) the rail line runs through the drabbest parts. Shelton is the one big exception. Its downtown, just across the Housatonic from the Derby-Shelton station (located in Derby), is as bleak as the rest, but the outlying parts of town include several thriving modern office parks and the quaint Huntington neighborhood. You might say that downtown Shelton and the rest of town present an across-96th-Street-on-the-East-Side sort of contrast.
Derby and Ansonia are a lot less prosperous than Shelton, but they do have some interesting older houses in certain residential areas, a legacy of years past when industry was still something big. Seymour, well, there isn't much beyond downtown.
We had a 50-minute hangover at Waterbury, so I set out in search of breakfast and bathroom. This required a long walk along West Main Street past a Department of Labor daily hiring hall with very few people outside, many churches and shuttered bodegas, but no eateries. Finally, at what looked like the heart of downtown at a crazy five-way intersection, was a partially completed mini-mall that offered creature comforts. The walk back along Grand Street past courts and government offices was noticeably more cheery. Next to the 'station'-just a platform- was a spectacular building that houses the local newspaper, but led me to wonder if this was the original station.
I lived in Waterbury all my life until a few years ago, and you observations are pretty much on the money. It was the world's leader in brass-products manufacturing, with three enormous mill complexes (Scovill, Chase and Anaconda) employing a high percentage of the city's working population. When I was attending grade school in the 1960's, I'd guess that at least three-quarters of my classmates had at least one parent working in a brass mill. Those civic buildings you saw along Grand Street were courtesy of the brass mills' prosperity. Then, within the space of just a few years starting around 1970, all three brass mills rolled over and died, thanks to Asian competition and, mainly, increased substitution of plastics. While "de-industrialization" has hit many cities in the United States, Waterbury was unusual in (a) the rapid pace and throughness of the decline, and (b) its inability to find new economic niches. Today, although Waterbury's population is at about the same 100,000 level that it's been at for decades, its economy is about the size of what you'd expect in a city of 25,000. There's a good-sized shopping mall (on the site of the Scovill brass mill), two hospitals, a community college, some relatively small-scale industry, and that's about it. Waterbury has a high percentage of retirees in its population, and, unfortunately, a rapidly growing welfare class. Many of the city's working people now travel out of town for jobs.
Incidentally, a hint of Waterbury's industrial past can be seen in the sizeable rail yards just south of the Metro North station - sadly, these are now empty rail yards.
Oh, you are correct about the newspaper building, it served as the railroad station until the late 1940's or early 1950's. Trains then used a smaller section of the building until about 15 years ago, when the station became a platform-and-shelter arrangement. Sadly, when the newspaper took over, it completely rebuilt the station's interior, so now the outside of the building is the only hint of its railroad past.
The trip back to Bridgeport was equally speedy, and the ten-minute wait for the mainline electric connection afforded some nice views of the harbor, the traffic on I-95 and the 'transit center'- a
multi-level parking garage with bus lanes on ground level. Funny, but exit signs along 95 seem to indicate that the bus terminal, train station and ferry terminal are all combined, but on close inspection
the ferry looks to be about a mile away- although all the construction in the area made it hard to tell.
There's a pedestrian walkway leading from the south end of the station to the ferry dock, a distance of no more than a few hundred feet. Vehicular access to the dock requires a much more roundabout trip.
www.1010wins.com is reporting that the Newark-Elizabeth Light Rail will use a currently abandoned tunnel in Downtown Newark. What tunnel?
-Hank
The only tunnel I know is the Cedar Street subway (a short branch between the existing City Subway via the old Public Service trolley terminal), described in Joe Brennan's treatise on abandoned stations...
-Dave
there was short tunnel that busses use to access pubic service terminal to was washington st. the 49 and 62 used it. there was tracks also but that was before my time
For a possible story in The Washington Post about the upcoming subway baseball series, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone the following historical information?
1) How many people rode the NYC subway on a typical day in 1956? (The last subway series occurred in 1956 between the Yankees & the Brooklyn Dodgers).
2) How many people lived in NYC in 1956?
3) Does anyone have any kind of historical memorabilia/anecdotes about "subway series" in general they would be willing to share with me?
Obviously if the Yankees don't win the game tonight, all of this will be moot, but it will still might be helpful for a general story about New York. Please contact me via e-mail or phone.
Many thanks.
Richard Drezen
Washington Post/NYC Bureau
(212) 445-4918
drezenr@washpost.com
Obviously if the Yankees don't win the game tonight, all of this will be moot,
If they lose tonight, they can win game seven.
1) How many people rode the NYC subway on a typical day in 1956? (The last subway series occurred in 1956 between the Yankees & the Brooklyn Dodgers).
For all of 1956 the # of Rapid Transit revenue passengers was: 1,363,134,171.
2) How many people lived in NYC in 1956?
7,795,471 (Apr 1, 1957)
3) Does anyone have any kind of historical memorabilia/anecdotes about "subway series" in general they would be willing to share with me?
My father reported the following. The bus driver asked him: "Yankee or Dodger?" He was directed to one side of the bus, following his reply.
How do those figures compare to today?
Ok people, the #4, B and D trains will be busy tonight!! Out of curiosity, I know that most of the board are Mets fans. Any other Yankee fans out there besides BMTJeff and myself? LETS GO YANKS!!! -Nick
Hey Nick: This ought to make history. #4 Sea Beach Fred will be rooting for the Yankees tonight. I want that Subway Series that bad. The whole country will go ga ga over it---don't for a minute believe other wise.
10/18/2000
Come on Sea Beach Fred ! Buy a stinkin' plane ticket and head east. We'll even set up a big screen TV in one of the out of service south bound express track tunnels on the Sea Beach and invite some SubTalkers for a party !
Tickets may be difficult to come by, the scaplers will be hiring limousines to drive them home !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Oh Bill, Oh Bill, you are a work of art. Tell you what. If I knew a bunch of railfanners would be meeting at a designated place for the duration of the World Series, I would buy a "stinkin' ticket and head east. The Sea Beach part I love. Too bad that isn't a possibility.
If the Yanks win tonight or Wednesday, I wounder if they'll come up with a "modified" subway race for the message board before Game 1, with the 4 or the B/D racing the 7 from Grand Central or 42nd St.-Fifth Ave. to Yankee and Shea.
Both the 4 and the 7 would outrun the B and D.:-)
You got that right.
I didn't know Yankee fans were allowed on the board.
Well, what can you say. Barf happens. Just kidding.
LET'S GO YANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
hell yeah.
This could be it folks!! David justice hit a 3 run homer in the 7th....da bombers lead 9-5 in the 8th!! BTW, u Yanks fans (and met fans rooting for the yanks tonight) are awesome!!! :) -Nick
Load up the Yawnkees on a 142..
both bound for the scrapyard.
Yeah, in 2050 at least. You know I try to think that maybe you might be capable of contributing a useful post, but noooooo you have to go and prove me wrong. It's back to the killfile for you! Enjoy your nice R62As on the #1 line. God only knows us #2 line riders might have liked to have ridden R62As on a regular basis instead of being relegated TO those rusty old deathtraps. But no more! We are finally going to have our long overdue modern subway cars on the #2, #5 and #6 lines. AND YOU CAN'T STOP IT! NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRY! Finally, the eastern Bronx IRT lines are getting the respect they have been denied for so many years. The curse is finally over!
I'm a lifelong Yankee fan, even if I do live in Queens. But I grew up in Ded Sox territory, so I'm used to being heckled.
I am a yankees fan
Sounds like a personal problem.
I'm on my friends computer here at school. I couldn't get into Subtalk for two hours on my computers next door. Was the line down, and if not can anyone tell me why I can get on this computer I'm using and not mine? Very confusing.
Your computer is getting even with you for all your Mets posts. :)
I had a problem around 3pm Tuesday, I kept getting a 403 error.
-Hank
I am looking for 2 people to go with in an a 24 hour all lines marathon. I haven't seen much of the NYC subway and I feel the best way for me to explore the line it to do it all at once. The trip would be sometime in January and would ideally run from Friday evening/afternoon to Saturday evening. Are any of you subtalkers up for the challenge?
i can handle it. i've wanted to do that for so long after seeing someone on the news do that in the mid 80's. i'm definitely up for it.
later,
tim
Think we should call Guiness Book?
"Think we should call Guiness Book?"
you probably should buy a bottle of guiness... 24 hours of being with jersey mike is enough to drive anyone to drink...
in fact the real record will be to see how long someone can be with him without going mad... the current record is 2 hours 49 minutes
We'll never beat the 22 hour record, but I don't remember an official record for the NYSC, SIRT and the PATH.
You might as well add HBLR and Newark City Subway.
Good luck if you do decide to do it. I believe the world record is 27 hours.
I thought it was 22.
It's 23 1/2.
>>> The trip would be sometime in January and would ideally run from Friday evening/afternoon to Saturday evening. <<<
Mike;
This sounds like fun, but you need to do some planning. January is probably not a good time because the cold weather will necessitate heavy clothing which becomes a logistical problem if it gets warm during the day and very cold at night. Better would be balmy spring weather when it is neither too hot or cold. Also, if you are going to try for any speed record, a weekday with express service and more frequent operation of trains would be better than Saturday.
Are you planning to do a classic tour where you enter at one station and travel the whole system on one fare, changing lines only at free transfer points? If so, I and fellow SubTalkers would be interested in your proposed itinerary and schedule.
Tom
I was able to get on Subtalk at 4:00 p.m, Pacific Standard Time. Perhaps the line was overcrowded and that was the reason I couldn't log on. If someone has a definite answer I'm all ears.
Your post was made at 19:07:25 (that's 7:25:25 PM for you non-24 hour types), so you got your connection.
4:00 p.m, Pacific Standard Time
Only if you were in Arizona.
Sorry.
Arizona is MOUNTAIN standard time.
im new to the board.can anyone supply me with any gifs or links or any personal homepages that show any of the bmts inds or irts between 1970 and 1985?? thank you.
I'll do this Judge Judy style,STUPID. I just posted gifs of cars from the 70's & 80's. Look at my site. Click the R110B below then click the NJT Bus and scroll down.
does anyone have any links to photos of nyc subway lines from the 70s and 80s?thank you
should be in the rolling stock pictures ?
Salaam's right, check here. Look around and you'll find plenty of pictures of old cars.
Does anyone know of any web sites that would have public domain photos of steam trains? Anyone with any leads can reply to me offline by sending a message to my email address which is greghomatas@juno.com . Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
Public domain is hard, most people want to at least know when their pictures are being used somewhere else. Try http://abpr.railfan.net and when you find something you like email the poster for permission to use it.
Since the area around 42 Street is an important part of the city, I want to know is this so because that area was the hub of the IRT "H" system? I know Times Square was not special when the IRT first opened, did the fact that the subway ran there make the NY Times move there and make it the famous intersection that it is today? Or, OTOH, was the hub of the "H" system put on 42 St. because it was an important place already, since Grand Central was already there?
Supposedly, the IRT originally wanted to go up Broadway all the way from City Hall to 42nd, but was blocked by businesses along the street, back in the days when lower Broadway was far more important and the theater district hovered around 14th Street.
Second, Third and Sixth avenues were out as alternative routes because of the el lines, Lexington and Madison avenues didn't start until 21st (14th with Irving Place) and 23rd St. respectively, and as for Fifth Ave./West Broadway -- well you might have gotten the West Broadway part, but as for the people on Fifth Ave., well, thereare some places where NIMBYism is at least a century old.
With those routes gone, that left the Elm (Lafayette) St.-Fourth Ave.-Park Ave. route the IRT finally decided on. The turn at 42nd St. was natural because the New York Central tracks had first dibs on Park from 42nd on north, and once you got over to Times Square the upper part of Broadway was less developed and wider than the lower section, with people up there happy to have the chance to get a faster route downtown.
The Times Tower (not the one they're in right now, but the one where the ball drops from on New Year's) was built at the same time as the subway, so there may have been some connection. More likely was the fact that the New York Herald was already in area at 34th St., and Midtown at the turn of the century was fast becoming the choice location for a newspaper to be (when the Times moved to 43rd between Seventh and Eighth Aves. a few years later, the Herald-Tribune would end up in a building two blocks south of there, on 41st St.)
When the Times moved to 1 Times Square in 1904, it was Belmont who advocated changing the name. The square used to be called Longacre as it was the center of the carriage trade (basically the equivalent of modern 11th Avenue) and Longacre was the name of the square in London where the same business was based.
Herald Square was named because the Herald (before the Tribune merger) was daring and moved there from it's offices on Park Row across from City Hall Park (there was a "Printing House Square" where Pace University is now).
There was a thread a not a long time back on how the Herald-Tribune died.
Interesting, you don't typically read that the subway builders back then would have a problem on where they wnated to build. Everything I have read up until now about subway building in the first half of the century always came across as "wherever they wanted to build it, they did." I guess everything came together at once around 42 St. And not one, but many things were responsible for making it what it is today.
42nd Street's role would be signed by the ban of steam south of 42nd Street, which forced the location of Grand Central. As J Lee has already mentioned, it was Grand Central's location that forced the line to turn at 42nd Street. There was no room for it to run to 57th, and turning away at 34th would avoid the terminal, and not for good reasons.
For all you J train lovers out there, I got a question. What is the current Subway Car Assignment for the J,M & Z Trains?
I'm not a J lover but I know that the J,M, and Z all share the R40Ms and R42s out of East New York Yard.
running on...
or
Thanks for the subway car info R68A. Can you or anyone else tell me what is the current status of the subway track restoration on the Manhattan Bridge?
I believe that they are removing the lead paint from the south tracks. The south tracks are the ones closed. After they are done and reopen that side to trains, they will close the north side currently used by the B,D, and Q Trains and remove the paint from that side. When both sides are done, they should open full service unless if something comes up.
running on...
or
Greetings, all...
Just letting everybody know that I'm back online on my own computer after my five-week transition period between Boston and Chicago.
I'm happy to announce that I just finished moving into my own apartment in Chicago's Edgewater neighborhood (at Foster and Sheridan, two blocks from the lake and two blocks from the Berwyn stop on the Red Line L). The apartment is a huge studio with a brand-new kitchen and beautiful hardwood floors ($550 a month for rent -- Eat your hearts out, Boston and New York!). I'm on the top floor of a large pre-war apartment building, complete with an open-cage freight elevator with one of those manual controllers that resembles a trolley controller. If I lay down on the floor of the elevator facing upwards and close my eyes while operating the lever, it's almost like operating one of the trolleys back at Seashore (at least until the building manager comes and kicks me out).
Speaking of having too much fun with elevators, I'm also happy to announce that as of last Monday I've been working at Urban Design Group, a mid-size architecture firm located on the 54th floor of the Sears Tower. To get to work, I take an express elevator to 33, an escalator up to 34, and a local elevator to 54. Imagine Union Station turned up on end, and you have a pretty good idea of how vertical transportation works in the Sears Tower.
Anyway, just thought I'd drop a quick line to let people know that I didn't fall off Niagra Falls on the way back to Chicago from Boston, and that I hope to be a more frequent contributor to SubTalk as long as my computer stays functional (a big variable, to be honest).
I've been suffering bouts of withdrawl from the Bombardier 01800's on the MBTA's Red Line, but other than that I'm happy to be back home in Chicago and happy to be back here on SubTalk... And looking forward to hosting our SUBTALK CHICAGO FIELD TRIP NEXT SUMMER!!!
Talk to you all later,
-- David
Chicago, IL
" just thought I'd drop a quick line to let people know that I didn't fall off Niagra Falls "
NIAGARA FALLS!!!!
thanks david for setting me off... i have been nice and quiet lately, letting people talk here about their subways until you mentioned NIAGARA FALLS...
rather than continue with that tired routine, i was happy to read that you have found a nice place to live and to work...
who makes the elevator in your building?... otis?.. if it has a lever control, i suspect it might be a gurney... is the elevator shaft exposed on the floors in the style of a total cage?
Congratulations on the move and your new vertical subway rides.
(We actually have a freight elevator in my office building here at MIT, and it has a "Cineston 600V" controller as well.)
I was just on a Bombadier 1800-series Red Line train a few minutes ago, David, and they miss you too. So come visit!
Glad to get your on-line post card from the Windy City, best of luck in your new digs !
Mr t__:^)
I was tuned to WINS1010AM and they announced at about 12:17 A.M. that we officially have a SUBWAY SERIES!! This will be the first subway series since 1956. The New York Yankees beat the Seattle Mariners 9-7. This is the greatest thing to happen with baseball in New York in many. many years. Let's celebrate.
BMTJeff
* I CAN HARDLY WAIT TO SHOOT THE #4 & THE # 7 REDBIRDS BEFORE & DURING THE SUBWAY WORLD SERIES ESPECIALLY AT NIGHT WITH THE STADIUM LIGHTS GLOWING IN THE BACKGROUND. IT COULD NOT BE BETER FOR ME SHOOTING A RAIL FAN WINDOW VIDEO WITH THE REDBIRDS DURING THE SUBWAY WORLD SERIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MAN I AM SORRY I CANNOT TYPE REGULAR ON THIS !!!!!!!!!!
THIS IS CLASSIC HISTORY HERE THE REDBIRDS & ME WITH MY MACHINE GUN CAMCORDER & 5 HOUR SHOOTING ON EACH TAPE !!!!
THE WORLD SERIES YAHKEES #4 METS # 7 THIS IS GREAT & WONDERFUL!!!!!
I LOVE THE CITY I WAS BORN IN NEWY YORK ( NYC ) HOME SWEET HOME!!!!
thankz i needed that!!! ....
* I CAN HARDLY WAIT TO SHOOT THE #4 & THE # 7 REDBIRDS BEFORE & DURING THE SUBWAY WORLD SERIES ESPECIALLY AT NIGHT WITH THE STADIUM LIGHTS GLOWING IN THE BACKGROUND. IT COULD NOT BE BETER FOR ME SHOOTING A RAIL FAN WINDOW VIDEO WITH THE REDBIRDS DURING THE SUBWAY WORLD SERIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MAN I AM SORRY I CANNOT TYPE REGULAR ON THIS !!!!!!!!!!
THIS IS CLASSIC HISTORY HERE THE REDBIRDS & ME WITH MY MACHINE GUN CAMCORDER & 5 HOUR SHOOTING ON EACH TAPE !!!!
THE WORLD SERIES YANKEES #4 METS # 7 THIS IS GREAT & WONDERFUL!!!!!
I LOVE THE CITY I WAS BORN IN NEWY YORK ( NYC ) HOME SWEET HOME!!!!
thankz i needed that!!! ....
* I CAN HARDLY WAIT TO SHOOT THE #4 & THE # 7 REDBIRDS BEFORE & DURING THE SUBWAY WORLD SERIES ESPECIALLY AT NIGHT WITH THE STADIUM LIGHTS GLOWING IN THE BACKGROUND. IT COULD NOT BE BETER FOR ME SHOOTING A RAIL FAN WINDOW VIDEO WITH THE REDBIRDS DURING THE SUBWAY WORLD SERIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MAN I AM SORRY I CANNOT TYPE REGULAR ON THIS !!!!!!!!!!
THIS IS CLASSIC HISTORY HERE THE REDBIRDS & ME WITH MY MACHINE GUN CAMCORDER & 5 HOUR SHOOTING ON EACH TAPE !!!!
THE WORLD SERIES YANKEES #4 METS # 7 THIS IS GREAT & WONDERFUL!!!!!
I LOVE THE CITY I WAS BORN IN NEWY YORK ( NYC ) HOME SWEET HOME!!!!
thankz i needed that!!! ......
* I CAN HARDLY WAIT TO SHOOT THE #4 & THE # 7 REDBIRDS BEFORE & DURING THE SUBWAY WORLD SERIES ESPECIALLY AT NIGHT WITH THE STADIUM LIGHTS GLOWING IN THE BACKGROUND. IT COULD NOT BE BETER FOR ME SHOOTING A RAIL FAN WINDOW VIDEO WITH THE REDBIRDS DURING THE SUBWAY WORLD SERIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MAN I AM SORRY I CANNOT TYPE REGULAR ON THIS !!!!!!!!!!
THIS IS CLASSIC HISTORY HERE THE REDBIRDS & ME WITH MY MACHINE GUN CAMCORDER & 5 HOUR SHOOTING ON EACH TAPE !!!!
THE WORLD SERIES YANKEES #4 METS # 7 THIS IS GREAT & WONDERFUL!!!!!
I LOVE THE CITY I WAS BORN IN NEW YORK ( NYC ) HOME SWEET HOME!!!!
thankz i needed that!!! ......
10/18/2000
Gee Salaam, you really are excited about the Subway series, you posted four times and CAPS to boot !
I guess you have a right being starved for transit out there in LA, come back east and you'll have more transit than you can handle.
Bill "Newkirk"
* I am sorry i got carried away witn shooting subway videos with big crowds, stadium lights the #4#7 trains "REDBIRDS" & shooting it all man it is just overwhelming. My drug addiction is being overloaded with this dual history events & I am there shooting it on video too ?? thanks salaamallah
10/18/2000
Speaking of subway series, New York City seems to have a history of subway series whether it be Yankees vs. Giants or Yankees vs. Dodgers.
Did Chicago, Boston or Philadelphia have the same or anything close ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Only Chicago ('06) and St. Louis ('44), according to majorleagebaseball.com. 1914-15 was little more interesting. In 1914, Boston Braves and Philadelphia Phillies; 1915, Boston Red Sox and Philadelphia A's.
-Hank
...with a special metion for 1989 with the A's and Giants, of course -- different cities, but same media market, which would be the case if the Dodgers and Angels ever manage to get their act together in the same year (which would give the front-running celebs in L.A. someplace else to show their faces besides courtside at the Lakers games)
That's a big if and I wouldn't hold my breath for that to happen ant time soon,
You inverted the Phillies and A's.
1914: Boston Braves vs Philadelphia Athletics
1915: Red Sox vs Phillies
Yeah, I looked again after I posted. I read the chart backwards.
-Hank
Red Sox and Braves [ahem..BOSTON Braves...] came THISCLOSE in '48 as the Sox lost a one game playoff to the Indians [NEVER mention the name Danny Galehouse to an old Red Sox fan...worse than Bill Buckner or Bucky Dent!]
8-3 Indians. Lou Boudreau, who won the MVP that year with a 355 average and 18 homers, hit two in that game. He hit one in the first to give Cleveland a 1-0 lead, then hit another in the fourth right after Ken Keltner's three run blast, and that put the game out of reach. Why Joe McCarthy went with Galehouse when he had Parnell and Kinder available has never been explained.
In the case of St. Louis, the Cardinals and Browns shared Sportsman's Park. What about the Cubs and White Sox in 1906? Comiskey Park and Wrigley Field hadn't been built yet.
Bill Newkirk:
Chicago could have their own "Subway Series" between the Cubs and the White Sox.
BMTJeff
Yeah....maybe if the other 15 National League teams someday all get into a plane wreck or something.....and even then, it might be doubtful....
The LO V's (Woodlawn Jerome Ave) vs the AB & D types (Brighton Express & Local)! The R27's were still on blueprints! That was last time we've had a series like this, that's how long ago it was. Here's to NYC and the glory! GO YANKS GO METS!!
Actually you could take the Woodlawn train to Atlantic Ave, and change to a Hi-V on the Bway-7th ave express, and get off at Franklin....
Weren't some of the R-17s on the Woodlawn line by 1956? In that case, the last Subway Series would have been held with the introduction of the "Redbird" (since some of the R-17s did get that color) and the next one comes as the `Birds are getting ready to depart.
In the fall of 1959, I saw one of the first "new" trains on the "double green" at the Franklin Avenue station, in Bklyn. Being a young railfan (8 years old) at the time, I was shocked to see this, I never saw a "new" train on the IRT Bklyn Express tracks before. Years later I realized it was the first of the 26's (from ACF). The 17's and up were rapidly taking over the 7th Ave Express lines (about 75% of the runs at that point). That first train I saw will probably be amoung the first to be scraped within the next eight months or so.
R27/8135:
Maybe the TA should roll out the museum fleet (IRT Low Vs, BMT Standards, R-1 thru 9's) just for this event. All of these cars were in use the last time there was a subway series.
BMTJeff
BMTJeff,
If you can find cars that are mechanically and cosmetically sound, rolling out museum equipment might be possible.
The AB's are being worked on at Coney Island Shop, and the Lo-Vs have mechaincal problems that need to be ironed out. There aren't any R-1/9s available. Actually the D-Types are the only possibility, but they're limited to the B Division. I guess you could run a Museum Special to 161 St and Yankee Stadium.
-Stef
MSG had a GREAT shot last night looking up at a 4 train rounding the curve going into the tunnel, as Al Trautwig was saying : "Heres the first of about 10,345 shots you are going to see of a subway train in the next week and a half!" BTW: Yanks in six.......Pettite twice..Clemens twice and El Duque twice...nuff said.....Plus, George will have his newly refound Good Luck Charm [i.e. Yogi...]throw out the first ball on Saturday...[actually it SHOULD be Don Larsen throwing to Yogi....]
METS in SIX. Hampton twice, Leiter once, Reed once (or maybe the bullpen once)
-Hank
Sorry Hank, got to disagree with you on that one. It will go seven. In my opinion, there is no way the first Subway Series in 44 years can go anyway but seven. But I agree our Mets are going to prevail.
I am told the announcers made a gaffe as to which train goes where. Supposedly, one of them said the 4 goes to Shea and the 7 goes to Yankee Stadium. BUZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!! That's what a coworker told me today, anyway. I was busy last night and caught the tail end of the game on radio.
Bob Costas said that yesterday (yesterday being Monday) people took the 4 train and now will take the 7.
He IMMEDIATELY corrected himself. It's a mistake ANYONE, EVEN YOU OR I can make.
This is the problem of taking things out of context. Your friend forgot to mention things that weren't convenient to your viewpoint of the media knowing squat about the subway.
WOO HOO! The first subway series in my lifetime. And the first one involving Queens.
Warm up those IRT 4 and 7 trains! (And the D for those who want to settle for the IND) New York has conquered baseball.
:)Andrew
But Jeff, old buddy, if you're a Yankee fan you had better start preparing for the worst because my boys are going to prevail.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
This will be the greatest World Series I've witnessed in my lifetime no matter who wins. A New York team will have to win this series. If the Mets do it, good for them. They haven't won a World Series since 1986. The last time there was a subway series the Mets didn't even exist.
BMTJeff
Tell that to Peggy Crone, Monica Pelligreni and the guys doing the sports reports on Channel 11.
-Hank
I'm going to tape each and every game and keep them, no matter who wins. This is a rare event. Put it this way, the last Subway Series took place a month before I was born.
Hi folks, it's me again, back after a brief hiatus and just in time to see the Yankees lock up their half of the Subway Series. Just think of it - the Kawasakis versus the Redbirds. The #4 versus the #7. Last time something like this happened I was just two years old and many of us were not even born. This is a great thing, not just for baseball, but for New York, and all its citizens as well.
While I am very happy to see the two teams in the World Series together, for my own purposes, I must side with the Redbirds of the #7 line and the New York Mets, who won the 1969 World Series just about 31 years ago. They were amazing then and are amazing now. Watching the Yankees accept the ALCS trophy - it's just another day at the office for them. Not taking anything away from the Yanks, they are a great team, deeply steeped in history and tradition. It's just more exciting when the Mets win, because nobody EXPECTS them to win it all.
LET US HAVE A GREAT WORLD SERIES AND MAY THE BEST TEAM WIN. The GREATEST CITY has already won.
Wayne
All aboard!
I'm 24 years old....let's face it, there has never been anything like this in my life! It's bad enough that I never saw the el's or the Brooklyn Dodgers but this is something to remember! This IS great for the city, for subway lovers, and for baseball aficianado's (like me). My only regret is that no one who "left the game forever" in 1994 remembers that and hopefully, this can heal the rifts that still exist...the labor agreement is up in 2002 and we need this subway series to put baseball back where it belongs, right here in New York!
I'm a Yankee fan, but I'd love nothing more than to see this go seven games and the R-142's to take me to my favorite watering holes in the Bronx to see the games. What a day for New York!
There is a Subway Series Wrap magazine offered by the Mets which features an R-62 4 train along with an R-36 7 train on the front cover, spangles with subway tokens (no Metrocard). But wait - the 4 on the front of the R-62 train is on the wrong side!! Whooooops!!
Looks as if I'm going to be flying into a madhouse of a city when my flight gets into LGA on Monday. Hopefully I can snag a ticket for one of the games.
I seem to recall a post I made a while back about a dream I had that the Mets won the Series. I'm not going out on a limb, but that dream doesn't seem so preposterous now. We'll see what happens.
Hello, Redbirds, GO METS!!!
All was well until the word Yankees was mentioned. That spoiled my day. As you can see, I'm getting my game personalty face on.
Why not call it an IRT Redbird Series? Both the 4 line and the 7 line use Redbirds (not so much on the 4, but they still make their presence felt (Yesterday I got a picture of #9280 leading a train into the YS station, with Yankee Stadium in the background)).
Second that for me Wayne. One piece of good news is the thought police from the Bronx have been conspicuous with their silence as
we go off subject. I'm hoping it;s because they've caught the spirit of the occasion and are falling into line. Or, more likely, it is because we are all into this spirit of a Subway Series and they know better than to rain on our parade. Either way, we come out ahead. GO METS!!!!
How many newscasters from NY and out of town are going to ride the #7 to the #4 (or the other direction) to promote this World Series?
Maybe with all of this press, the people outside NY will realize that everything bad they hear about NYC and the transit system is not true.
I know one thing...NYC will win its 34th World Series!
know one thing...NYC will win its 34th World Series!
I can predict that the team that scores the most runs will win each game!
Funny, Yogi Berra (or was it Casey Stengel?) predicted the same thing. I know for sure that Yogi said "We would have won if they hadn't beaten us."
-Hank
I got it from SNL.
They had a Monday Night Football sketch, and one of the commentators (played by Will Ferrell) made some obvious predictions like "The team that puts most points on the board, will win this game."
I saw a camera crew on the platform for southbound trains at the River Avenue stop recording a D train leaving the station.
Article in todays News about Atlantic and Flatbush control house.
CONTROL HOUSE
Peace,
ANDEE
10/18/2000
Great article, when I first spyed the triangle and found the kiosk gone, I thought the worst. But I'm glad it will return and be restored to it's former glory, minus it's function as and entrance and exit. I guess they removed it was because the old steps below will probably be removed and to reinforce the foundation where it will stand. I also agree in the article that the triangle is too dangerous to serve the kiosk as a point of entry for the subway below.
Now for the long delayed overhaul of this complex, it couln't come too soon for Atlantic Ave (D)(Q) the second most depressing BMT station behind Chambers St.
So Metrotech will build office space I presume where the LIRR terminal building once stood. Long overdue !
Bill "Newkirk"
Very strange what the TA spokesman said about the kiosk. He did not mention anything about it being used as an information booth/bus shelter. I'd still think that the size of the kiosk would allow for use as both ventilation/skylight and as an information & bus stand.
Hopefully, once the work is completed the landmarked strucuture will be more than just a source of air & light for passing commuters.
BMTman
>>> He did not mention anything about it being used as an information booth/bus shelter. <<<
You have to read the article again. They specifically do not want to attract people to the island it sits on because of street traffic danger. Therefore it will sit there as a silent monument, without any interactive function with people.
Tom
Each team gets on. A restored , perfect r-36 single. Their name and logo is put one. The winner , best out of three, inter league play winnes the otheres Redbird and displays it on the salveged "El"erected behindthe center field fence for the world to see!
Let's say the Mets take the first incounter, they get the Yankees subway car with the date and score card on the side. The Yankees take the second series, they win their car back With the new score on it . This way it shows they had to win it back. The most recent score on the car that changes ball parks. You keep a clean car if you go Undefeated. For the World Subway series I need help or suggestions for an appropiate Trophy.
So come on, lets Brainstorm this!
avid
Train wreck in England kills 4,
Wreck kills 4
Peace,
ANDEE
In the NY Daily News this morning, the article on the crash is placed right next to the Acela article.
-Hank
Way to drum up business for high speed trains---NOT.
I guess the Daily News is not interested in any advertising money from AMTRAK. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
update on this posting, investigators are still on the scene at lunchtime today with the Police still controlling the site. No railway recovery has started yet.
Locomotive (class 91) and 8 car (Mark 4) set with Driving trailer at rear.
Location is between Welham Green and Hatfield approx 16 miles north of Londons Kings Cross station.
Media speculation that a broken rail caused the incident, the rails
being long welded sections of approx 5 years vintage at the location.
Regards
Rob
London UK
You see, this is EXACTLY why we need heavy weight passenger cars that are built like tanks. Some accidents you just can't prevent and then it is up to the car to protect you. Would a stainless steel Budd car been "ripped appart", probably not. Would a PRR P-70 have been "ripped appart", definitly not. Light weight, "aluminum" trains are dangerous. Cars can be built light because the occupants are strapped in. People are free to fly about the interrior of a train so the coach must be designed strong enough to be able to smash through any obstruction after a derailment to extend the duration of the decelleration and resduce the forces upon the passengers.
Would a PRR P-70 have been "ripped appart", definitly not.
I guess you've never seen pictures of the wreck of the Broker, have you? 83 people died in that one. Or of the wreck on the LIRR at Kew Gardens (Queens) that killed 79.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When were those? That's a lot of people killed.
The Broker wreck was in the early '50s, at Woodbridge, NJ. I don't recall the date of the Kew Gardens wreck but I think it was at about the same time. I have a video that contains footage of both wrecks; the death count information came from the slipcase, but they didn't put the date on there and my wife's watching TV so I can't play the tape to check (I'm sure the date is in the narration).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Rockville Centre NY Feb.17th 1950 31 Dead
Richmond Hill NY Nov 22nd 1950 79 Dead
Woodbridge NJ Feb 6th 1951 84 Dead
Dead God, that's like a blood bath. What the heck was going on then? Can you imagine what would happen of those accidents occured today?
If I remember correctly the two LIRR wrecks resulted in telescoping cars causing the great loss of life. I was delivering the Long Island Press, a popular newspaper at the time, and each wreck was front page news for several days. I can't remember the details of the Woodbridge wreck, but it was a long time ago. I do know that it was terrible to just see the pictures of all three wrecks!
I didn't know steel cars could telescope. I thought that went out with the 19th century.
The physical forces involved in a wreck are the same now as they were 50 or 100 years ago. In some ways, I suspect that the lighter construction is safer because it is the carbody that absorbs the impact rather than passing the forces on to the passengers seated inside of the car body.
In a catasthropic wreck, there will be deaths, but perhaps fewer so if the equipment absorbs some of the energy. The anti-climbers are *supposed* to help prevent telescoping of the cars, but if the wreck is violent enough or one of the cars is badly off the rails, they will do little good.
We also have better clearances along most right of ways now, so less trees, poles and towers to wrap a car around. Subways generally have the closest clearances, after all they are shoehorned into the most impossible spaces. Welded rails, and better roadbeds are also responsible for safer service.
Even the older heavy-weight steel cars were railcars, and not battleships or armoured tanks, and the steel used there was obviously not enough to prevent damage in an accident. Concentrating on roadbed, clearances, and training will provide greater returns in terms of safety than will stronger railcars.
Elias
From what I read telescopeing was a phenominon plagueing wooden cars. That's why they were banned (and because they caught fire).
No, it can happen with steel cars, even the big heavy "safe" designs. The '54s and '70s were considerably heavier than the M-1s were, and they still did very poorly in crashes.
Incedently, I read somewhere that the P-32-AC-DM weighs only like 250,000 lbs. Yet it has performed beautifully in crashes. Not much heavier than an AEM-7. Light weight, strong, and able to dump energy where it won't hurt anyone, is where it's at. I believe the Illinos wreck of last year managed to physically twist the loco, but the engineer survived. The P-32, AFAIK, has no frame to it. Apparently, that has not made it an unsafe design
The train involved in the Illinios wreck was a P40 not a P32 and only the rear got seriously munched. No locomotive built in the US since the FL-9 has had a full frame. They have all been of the hood or cowl design with 2 big I-beams holding everything up. The aerodynamic covering does not provide that much structural integrity. The 115 ton weight of a P32, more for a P40, is about average for a US locomotive. A old SD-40 will be around 90-105 tons. An E60 is 170, an AEM-7 is 101 and a GG-1 is 238. Of course GG-1's have hit bulldozers and Union Stations and come out completely unhurt.
Of course GG-1's have hit bulldozers and Union Stations and come out completely unhurt.
But #4876 had to be cut in half to remove it from the basement of Union Station. It was rebuilt, though, and IIRC was one of NJDOT's Penn Station to South Amboy fleet.
That was more because they couldn't lift it as a whole with the mobile cranes they had at the time.
-Hank
The survival of people (and property) in major wrecks is a testimony to the extensive computer modeling now performed in designing such things. THey can model 99% of all scenarios, and see the weak points. That's why cars now have steel beams in their sides and plastic body panels.
-Hank
They cut it into 3 pieces and after rebuilding it lasted another 27 years, not too shabby. Those AEM-7's at Chase MD had to both be scrapped.
The lead motor in the Chase wreck literally disintegrated. The only thing that survived was the no. 2 truck, which was found in the woods 500 feet from the ROW. The second motor was so badly damaged that it was towed to Wilmington and scrapped almost immediately.
The Chase wreck is what started the drug testing and the licensing of locomotive engineers.
I'd feel sorry for ANYTHING that gets hit by a GG-1!
wayne
Yes, witness the MP-54 telescoped by a second MP-54 at Richmond Hill in 1950. Almost a full-length penetration of the car. The sill and undercarriage had absolutely no resistance to this crash.
wayne
The Rockville Centre LIRR crash did not result in a telescope; rather, the MP-54C Arch Roof (car #1819) that got the worst of it was sheared down the center by the other car, which was a standard RR roof MP-54.
The Richmond Hill LIRR crash was a true telescoping. The cars were the same type of MP-54 as well, judging by the photographs I have seen.
wayne
Well Mp-54's are c.1900 vintage the P-70's were a much newer/safer design.
Yes the design of the MP-54 goes back at least to about 1910 or so although they were being manufactured as recently as the late 1920s/early 1930s. The P-70/MP-70 cars had pretty tough vestibules.
wayne
The penultimate mismatch between "heavyweight" and "lightweight" occurred on October 30, 1972 at Chicago, IL. on the Illinois Central Gulf commuter line. A 1970 St. Louis Car Bilevel was backing up after overshooting a flag stop and was hit in the rear unit by a 65-ton 1926 model pressed steel (not the mfr, the material) Pullman-built MU, travelling in excess of 45 MPH. The result: Death and destruction everywhere; 45 fatalities, hundreds of injuries, and over forty feet of the last car of the Bilevel compressed into the space of a few feet. The damage to the Pullman MU? A compression of the first few feet or so of the lead car, about the depth of the operator's compartment. Some broken glass and dented steel, that's it.
wayne
The penultimate mismatch between "heavyweight" and "lightweight" occurred on October 30, 1972 at Chicago, IL. on the Illinois Central Gulf commuter line. A 1970 St. Louis Car Bilevel was backing up after overshooting a flag stop and was hit in the rear unit by a 65-ton 1926 model pressed steel (not the mfr, the material) Pullman-built MU, travelling in excess of 45 MPH. The result: Death and destruction everywhere; 45 fatalities, hundreds of injuries, and over forty feet of the last car of the Bilevel compressed into the space of a few feet. The damage to the Pullman MU? A compression of the first few feet or so of the lead car, about the depth of the operator's compartment. Some broken glass and dented steel, that's it.
But didn't the impact actually occur at an angle of some sort, so that the Pullman overrode the strong points of the bilevel's frame?
Yes, sort of but I think the impact was more or less straight on. The differing sill heights did have some impact on things. The first car of the MU leapt up over the lower sill of the last car of the Bilevel and chewed through it at an angle. The Bilevel's floor is lower than that of the MU. If you look at Ted Lemen's picture you can see how the MU kind of sags down and through the floor of the Bilevel. The right side of the Bilevel is gone; the left side is sort of intact, but it's all warped and skewed and the seats were ripped right off their frames.
Click here to view the wreckage.
wayne
Well, we should definitely privatize amtrak. Look how well its worked in England!!!
Here is an interesting article from the NY TIMES
Enjoy !!!
Just to clarify, the article is on abandoned tunnels (spur connections) of the Newark City Subway. They are planning to reactivate one of the lines for a direct, mostly grade-separated line to Newark Airport.
Once again, New Jersey is making the kinds of transportation improvements that we in New York City can only dream of. Heck, it's a 20 year process just to build pedestrian station connections like Lawrence to Jay and Bleeker to Broadway -- Lafayette.
See New York Times Metro section today for article on Newark City
subway...
I don't know if anyone can help me with this question but here it goes. What is the distance between the running rail and the third rail and what is the height of the third rail? I am trying to make a 3D computer model of Boston's RTL cars. Would the distances be the same for New York?
Thanks in advance for any help.
JoeD
The distance between the inside of the running rail to the inside of the 3rd rail is 25 1/2 inches on the BMT and IND divisions and 23 15/16ths inches on the IRT. Inside meaning if you were laying flat on the ground looking straight ahead at the running rail and the 3rd rail with the 3rd rail being on the right hand side of the running rail. The inside would mean to the left of both the running rail and 3rd rail(I hope this clarified it).
The standard TA height of the 3rd rail including insulators is 9 5/8ths inches.
The height difference between the top(ball) of the running rail and the top(ball) of the 3rd rail is 3 1/2 inches on the IND and BMT and 4 inches on the IRT with the 3rd rail always being higher than the running rail.
These are the NYCTA measurements. Boston's will most probably vary from this.
Your explanation is great!
Is there any chance that you might know the distance for the old uncovered third rail on the BMT when the el cars were still used?
I know is was several inches closer, but I don't know how much.
Oh, not a shot. :)
I only have the current info with me. Wish I could help you.
Thanks anyway, I remember the old el car's pickup set on the top of the third rail whereas the subway car had a paddle pickup type shoe which sort of reached out to the rail from the side.
Thanks for that information. It will be helpful.
JoeD
the article about the london derailment at a speed of 115 mph has me wondering if there have been other accidents occurring at very high speed?
There was one in Germany a couple years ago.
There was one in Britian just yesterday.
There was one in Britian just yesterday.
That's the one referred to in the title:
have there been other high speed train crashes or derailments (than the one in Britain yesterday)?
A German ICE train's wheel broke at c.150 mph and part of the train disintegrated upon contact with a bridge.
A French TGV detailed at 168, but remained upright on the tracks.
An Amtrak Metroliner going 90-110 mph impacted head on with a Conrail light engine move going about 50 in Chase MD.
The brakes failed on a large coal train in California and it reached 105 before derailing.
The 2 other big accidents in the UK at Southall and Lambrook Grove both invloved collissions with trains going 60-80.
Jersey Mike doing 95 mph running for the railfan window colliding with the woman holding the newspaper.
I can do 95 walking.
You must have six stages of field shunting.:-)
Chuchu was commenting on how fast I walk. Ever since 4th grade I have relied on leg transportation to get me places around town (my bike always had a flat) and I am quite a fast walker. I once walked 20 mines in 6 hours. Before the Aug 5th field trip I was 20 minutes early and so I used that time to walk from Market east (11th St.) to Suburban St. (15th), explored the platforms to the end (18th St.) and then walked back w/ 2 minutes to spare.
The Amtrak wreck in Chase, MD (1-4-87) was NOT a head-on collision. The Amtrak train rear-ended a string of Conrail locomotives that rant hrough a red signal and crossed over in front of the Amtrak train.
The freight wreck in California on the SP (San Bernardino) was NOT a coal train either. It was carrying crushed rock, as well as other chemicals. The other two or three that have happened on the BNSF/UP line were also NOT coal trains, they were general freight and TOFC.
We had a BNSF wreck just east of Antelope, several coal cars were overturned. Of course the train was only doing about 45... the Locomotive and head cars cleared a grade crossing, but the middle of the train derailed.
I visited the site several days later, and recovered a spring from a truck set. I have it in my train room, next to it, the same spring in HO scale.
Elias
Hello Everyone,
Check out the article in today's NY Times about the recent discovery of a 60 year old extensive underground trolly system in Newark! Part of which will now be used in the Light rail project they're working on over there, saving millions of dollars!
Very interesting.
Chris C
So far, this has been mentioned on posts 161009, 161016, 161022, 161033 and this one. The link is in post 161009.
I posted about this yesterday, when it was on 1010. And I would hardly call one tunnel an 'extensive system'
-Hank
The Star-Ledger has the story, too.
10/18/2000
I boarded the Newark City Subway PCC display this past Try Transit Festival and after viewing the photographs on display, I saw something that even surprised 49 year old me. In this abandoned Cedar Street subway is an old wooden wedge plow that has been reputed to be sitting in that same spot since 1952!
I understand that with reactiviation of the Cedar Street subway, this old wedge plow is standing in the way and must be moved. So Jeff H. or anybody else out there who may know, can this old wedge plow be moved for the first time in 48 years or does it have to be cut up on the spot? Perhaps some museum should step forward to rescue this plow before it becomes trashed in the name of progress.
Bill "Newkirk"
It may be #5245 built by PSNJ 1921.
In the April 1999 RailPace article it said "Currently stored due to weight and clearance problems. Not used in many years."
BTW, that article showed photos of two of the other MOW cars, but not this one.
Mr t__:^)
We'll take it!!
The BHRA just got the franchise to build and operate on the streets of Brooklyn yesterday. We need snow fighting equipment, as well as a work car.
Coincidence that this occurs the same day we got our Subway Serious?
Looks like Kirk and or Mike are getting a call from us tomorrow.
10/19/2000
Jan Lorenzen,
If you are dead serious, than you and BHRA should contact NJ Transit ASAP before they the plow gets scrapped !
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS!
Whats wrong with these people in Newark? Don,t they realize the BAD precident they are setting by saving money and reuseing abandoned rail lines. Those lines were abandonded for a reason!
Now explain how we get the Pork back in the Barrel? I'm waiting.
avid
And howmany homless will be displaced?
Now explain how we get the Pork back in the Barrel? I'm waiting.
Once its gone, its gone. If you don't you 100% of your budget it gets cut the next year.
As that infamous sage , Kingfish , once said , abuse it or lose it.
This is how politicians clip their coupons. Thats protected by the Worst Amenendment , Freedom of Leech. Or the right to Tote.
avid LOL
The pork does not belong in a barrel, it deserves FREEDOM.
And where the heck are the usual NIMBYs? Gotta be some NIMBYs even for underground trolley tunnels.
Go Mets
www.forgotten-ny.com
Who has a tunnel for a backyard?
10/18/2000
Speaking of the abandoned tunnel, it was on the Channel 4 news at 6 0'clock tonight. The tunnel is fenced of so access by City Subway is a no go unless you have the key. One point the videocam played on a cinder block patch in the wall which was broken and when they went inside there was the remains of one of the two abandoned stations. This one was for a department store.
If there was a forgotten NJ website, this would have made it !
Bill "Newkirk"
If they knew where it was, they'd complain about it. Right now the're smart. They don't want to complain about the loud noise they don't hear on the chance that it is not near them. Once they have definitive proof the tunnel is, in fact, underneath their business or home, they will send in thousands of letters about the awful noise coming from the reconstruction.
I am amazed that in this entire thread none of the netcops pointed out that trolly is incorrect - the correct spelling is trolley. And, while we're on the subject, the plural is trolleys, not, as many seem to believe, trollies.
Are we going to see a new set of MetroCards to commemorate the coming Subway Series?
BMTman
10/18/2000
Now that this Subway Series is reality, will the people up there at Metrocard headquarters come out with some collectible Metrocards based on Subway Series 2000 ?
I know a few months back there were NY Mets Metrocards based on a inter divisional "subway series". But this is the real deal!!
Hey Metrocard people...... Subway Series + Metrocard = $$$$$$$$$$
Bill "Newkirk"
(Now that this Subway Series is reality, will the people up there at Metrocard headquarters come out with some collectible Metrocards based on Subway Series 2000 ?)
If they're smart, it will be a big denomination card, in the hope that people will buy it and not use it. How about a special unlimited ride card, good for the entire period the WS is being played and the victory parade afterward?
If they're smart, it will be a big denomination card, in the hope that people will buy it and not use it. How about a special unlimited ride card, good for the entire period the WS is being played and the victory parade afterward?
Even though they may be smart at Metrocard headquarters, I doubt that they thought of (let alone programmed) every Metrocard reader to be able to accept any type of unlimited card (2,3,5,10,12 day etc) as well as one that could have a variable date (ie: if the parade were the second day after the series ends, that could mean an expiration on any of 4 days).
Examples:
The Yankees win in 4 (Game is on Wednesday - parade is on Fri)
The Yankees win in 5 (Game is on Thursday - parade is on Saturday)
The Yankees win in 6 (Game is on Saturday - parade is on Sunday)
The Yankees win in 7 (Game is on Sunday - parade is on Monday)
Yes !!! I'm a Yankee fan, and proud of it !!
I'm sorry you're a Yankee fan. Otherwise I'd tell you that they only need to tell the central computers to accept any card within a certain serial number range.
-Hank
"... they only need to tell the central computers to accept any card within a certain serial number range ..."
If only it was as simple as that, i.e. every change in the "system" is a big deal. In fact they can only EXCLUDE vs include a card s/n range. Even the production of special cards is a big deal ... graphics design, approval by all the suits, submission to production shop on the other side of the World, shipping, receiving, encoding, distribution, etc. The best we can hope for is a commerative card AFTER THE FACT ... maybe next Spring ?
Disclaimer: I'm speaking only from the view point of a collector, so my comments don't necessarily relect the view of the MTA or any of it's retailers.
Mr t__:^)
Easier way:
Let it work until the latest possible day of a parade (It's not a matter of if, but of when!).
Sell 30-day unlimited that physically expire on the last possible day, then the unused days will become dead and the TA wont refund them since the cards were sold on the cheap for only 1.5 weeks.
Lenore Skenazy, writing in the Daily News, says that while she likes the redo of GCT, they went too far to attract upscale customers with $80 scarves, $375 ballpoint pens, $18 lb. salmon and $5 greeting cards.
"Grand Central epitomizes the city New York has become: A great place to live if you're rich enough to skip the hot dog stand and head straight to Caviarteria".
I liked it that they cleaned it up too, but they cater too much to the Scarsdale crowd. I suppose that's who they really care about after all.
Of the additions, the transit museum is OK, but for the real stuff go to Court Street. Posner Books is OK but B&N and Borders do it better...
www.forgotten-ny.com
the verdict will be clearer as some shops close and are replaced. I recently had dinner there w/step daughter after a fruitless trip to Transit Museum--unannounced the picture exhibition was closed. Grub was okay--as she said nearly every place was an 'outpost' of some small Manhattan based firm. Compare to Union Sta DC w/ the same franchise ghetto crap as any suburban mall. Scarsdale?--well you know they are not catering to a clientele headed for Coney Island.
GC makes up for it by including those "newspaper redistribution bins."
Those who pay upwards of $.75 for the news are saps! or are too dainty.
It makes you a cheap bastard, not willing to shell out a buck for a paper. DO you drink out of a toilet or each the leftover fries from McDonalds trashcans? Which is why I always hck one into the paper when I toss it. I can't stand someone else using what I paid for without asking me.
-Hank
Which is why I always hck one into the paper when I toss it. I can't stand someone else using what I paid for without asking me.
That's sick!
But I'm entitled. Beisides, it's illegal to spit on the platform. This way, I dispose of my spit sanitarily.
-Hank
But it says newspaper only. Your spit isn't newspaper.
Your point is stupid. It doesn't say 'dry newspapers only'. If I spilled a soda and mopped it up with a newspaper, I'd still toss it in the reycling bin. There's liquid usually left in bottles and cans in the 'Bottles and Cans Only' bins.
-Hank
Yes, but the recycling process for bottles and cans can easily deal with liquids like that. Not necessarily the case for newspaper.
Please read up a few posts. The process of recycling paper requires wetting, shredding, and bleaching. There's no problem at all 'dealing with wet'.
-Hank
The process is more sensitive to contamination than you think. I'll grant you that your spit or sopped up coke does not ruin it. But if I hold the doors for 3 seconds for my friend to catch the train it does not make the train late. The idea is that the paper has to be clean to work, and if people tend to throw goo, even liquid goo, in there, it messes things up. You are doing something that, if done enough, would mess it up.
But hey, it makes you feel better, so keep right on spittin.
Then you would be breaking the law, since your spit (I assume that's what you mean by hck) is not recyclable as a newspaper product, which is the only thing that goes into those bins.
And picking papers out of those bins is an egalitarian activity, I've seen almost every kind of person rummaging through them.
And picking papers out of those bins is an egalitarian activity, I've seen almost every kind of person rummaging through them.
Probably me. In fact, as I was rummaging through one the other day, I noticed this grunting, curly-tailed hog watching me ...
I don't go out in porcine form in public anymore, I take human form.
And a good thing, too. Most people would freak at the sight of a talking pig, Wilbur excepted.
Besides, where would you carry your Metrocard? In your snout?
I'm less than 44" tall!
Then you would have to be with an adult.
Peace,
ANDEE
No, he'd have to be in an approved carrier, unless he's a 'helper' animal.
-Hank
True
I don't go out in porcine form in public anymore, I take human form.
Dang. There go my chances of getting a free rack of ribs.
It doesn't matter. Part of the process of recycling paper is to shred, bleach, and soak it. The use magnets to sort out the metal (staples), and larger foreign materials are removed by hand before the paper is shreded.
-Hank
OK. So that post I made just now about the Newspapers Only and all, ignore that.
it still works much better if they have CLEAN paper...
Doesn't matter. That's what the bleaching is for. The paper's already printed on.
-Hank
Besides, the dollars add up to something that's more worth the money.
Weren't you the one who disagreed with my penny elimination stand because it would cause the loss of one meal at McDonald's each year?
>>>>Which is why I always hck one into the paper when I
toss it. I can't stand someone else using what I paid for without asking me. <<<
If I have finished with them I leave my newspapers behind in the LIRR seat. I've gotten a lot of free papers people leave behind. I don't see what the problem is with that and I'm mystified that you're so incensed about it that you spit in the newspapers.
I changed the header since this goes pretty far astray from what we started with.
Go Mets
www.forgotten-ny.com
(If I have finished with them I leave my newspapers behind in the LIRR seat. I've gotten a lot of free papers people leave behind.)
I often do the same, but in fairness, remember that guy who advocated swiping someone else in with your unlimited ride card as you exit the subway (who was he, is he still here under some other name)? I didn't like it when someone did it to the MTA. The News and Post are losing money, so every freebie brings the day closer when one of the other (or both) go under.
Not really.
Ever noticed all of those ads inside? I doubt that they lose so much money from people reading the copies without paying, especially since they don't constitute an additional printing. Each printing probably costs more than 75 cents.
>>> I doubt that they lose so much money from people reading the copies without paying, especially since they don't constitute an additional printing <<<
Ever since the daily newspapers were sold by newsboys at three cents a copy, the traditional rule in general circulation newspaper publishing was that the sale price of the paper covered the cost of distributing the paper only; all other expenses were covered by advertizing. Of course those were the days when journalists were poorly paid, and most advertizing was done in newspapers.
Tom
The News and Post are losing money, so every freebie brings the day closer when one of the other (or both) go under.
I thought the News was earning money. It certainly seems to be chock-full of advertising, which is where newspapers get most of their revenue.
The Post surely is losing money left and right, given its dearth of ads, but that doesn't matter as long as Rupert Murdoch uses it as his mouthpiece. The downside, of course, is that the Post probably won't last long if he loses interest and decides to do something else. And that's not to mention the fact that Murdoch won't be around forever; he must be about 70 now, and while his children are ready to take his place when the time comes, they may be less interested in subsidizing a big money pit.
Because of staffing, and the concessions made to Murdoch seven years ago to keep the Post alive when he was allowed to buy it out of bankruptcy, the Post's financial situation is acutally better than then News, despite the ad count.
Murdoch was forced to sell the paper in 1986 by Ted Kennedy, who got a bill passed through Congress strictly enforcing the cross ownership ban between newspapers and TV stations. Since Murdoch was anxious to start up the Fox Network after buying the Metromedia stations, he chose to sell the Post despite enjoying the influence he was able to get from having a paper in NYC.
Now, the Post and Fox News Channel share the same building, and pretty much the same attitude, so there's some synergy there. Meanwhile, Mort Zuckerman owns the News and U.S. News and World Report, so he's got a little media empire going, but the paper's fate is tied as much to the value of Mort's ample real estate holdings in the Northeast as anything else.
(Because of staffing, and the concessions made to Murdoch seven years ago to keep the Post alive when he was allowed to buy
it out of bankruptcy, the Post's financial situation is acutally better than then News, despite the ad count.)
The owners pretty much work for the unions at both papers. The News/Post situation is this: both lose money, and neither is viable, BUT if one were to fold, the other would become profitable. So it's a war of attrition, with each seeking to wait out the other.
With Murdock seeking another media acquisition, it looks like he may be forced to sell the Post again. So (an insider told me) the News came up the Daily News Express (which I still haven't gotten) to take away the Post's afternoon readers and make it more likely to be closed than sold. The Post struck back with 25 cent papers, hoping to bankrupt the News once and for all, leaving it a worthwhile property to sell. The two could merge and end the war, but the owners egos are too big, and there would be extensive union issues.
At the time, the News was owned by Tribune Corp. Bottom line overall is that the News is in better shape, and is more centered than the Post, which leans obviously to the right. Murdoch follows the UK model for the paper, which is to sell sensationalism over actual news content.
-Hank
I agree that the News' ad linage is better, but so long as both owners operate in the red, Murdoch's News Corp. has deeper pockets than Zuckerman, whose fortune is tied more directly into the economic stability of the Northeast.
Murdoch survived his bankruptcy crisis of 10 years ago and - should the stock market and NYC real estate vaules take a long-term tumble - he would likely be able to absorb the losses for longer than Zuckerman could (unless we get into a worldwide recession, then both papers could be toast).
And you called me an arrogant bastard.
I can do what I wish with my property, and that includes determining if I allow someone else to use it. To me, it's theft.
-Hank
Your lugies aside, courts have rules time and time again that when you discard something (in a public place or in front of your house) it ceases to be your property and others can do with it what they please. So you have no right to be angry with people who reuse your discarded items (in whatever condition they might be).
Do you have a problem with Curbside Shoppers (shopping at your curb or in general)? People like college students and school teachers make heavy use of trask picked items to enhance their dorm or class room in ways they would not otherwise be able to afford. Not only do people benifit from salvaged it saves on valuable landfill space and that reduces everyone's taxes and helps the envrionment. Your actions are mean, selfish and spiteful and are a detriment to society as a whole.
Sorry, I have better values than to use other peoples garbage for my own purposes. Your actions are that of trailer park trash, or perhaps a homeless person. I also don't care that the court said once I toss it out, it ceases to be mine. It's mine until I toss it out, and can do with it what I please until I do. I don't want someone else's multiple-peed-on couch, half-broken entertainment center, lice-infested mattress, or anything else as such.
-Hank
How about a new 21 inch TV (needed to be reset), Calvin and Hobbes books (e-bay $20), civil war battle charts, classic computer software and 5 boxes of books. That's what me and the mail man hauled away from a house where the people just moved. The mail man got the TV, the books went to the library book sale, the charts are on my dorm wall, the 20$ is in my bank account and the classic software is to be sold sometime soon. Entertainment centers can be taken appart and their insides made into cool art and the only furniture we pick is all wooden or wicker (like an antique armoir). My mom's class room has a fully furnished reading area, a new magizine rack and beaucoup storage because of trash picks. And now with e-bay Trash is Cash! I'll be laughing all the way to the bank Mr. Pickey.
May you not come down with some weird disease from playing in the garbage.
-Hank
Ah yes... the same reason the rich throw out all those clothes, they can't bare the "poor" using what they paid for, so it becomes useless.
The only time I ever used a secondhand paper was a copy of the "Washington Post" I found on Amtrak the other day. I had never seen one before, and I obviously can't get one here (easily).
The Washington Post costs only 25˘ down in DC. It doesn't even make sense to waste your time picking it out of a bin.
>>> I can't stand someone else using what I paid for without asking me. <<<
I think a shrink could spend several hours with you getting to the bottom of that hangup.
I tend to be just the opposite, I was brought up with great respect for the written word, and although I will dispose of anything else in a trash can, if I finish reading a newspaper in a public waiting room, I will leave it folded up on a seat for the next reader. When I finish a paperback book, I will save it until I have several, and then donate them to a hospital, senior citizen's center, jail, or any place else where they will be recycled to other readers.
Tom
That's called littering. I am not a lending library. How about if I leave my left over food on the bench for the next guy?
If I wanted to part with my books, I would donate them to the library. (I wind up reading them repeatedly) I have no problem donating old clothes to any organization except the Salvation Army. But to me, a newspaper is a throwaway product, which is used once and discarded by the user, just like napkins and toilet paper. There's a new one every day, no reason to save them (except in certain cases).
-Hank
But to me, a newspaper is a throwaway product, which is used once and discarded by the user, just like napkins and toilet paper.
That's another reason why our country is becomming land fill. We should be finding ways to throw less stuff away.
HELLLO!!!! We have! Didn't you and I both just post things on recycling newspapers?
-Hank
Reduce, REUSE, Recycle. Its a 3 step plan.
I'll reuse an empty milk jug that I empty. I'll reuse cardboard boxes from work to pack. I'll reuse a paper cup I've been drinking from all day. I'm not going to reuse someone's busted-up crap furniture. My company doesn't have to allow me to bring home the empty cases. I won't pick through the garbage of others.
-Hank
You just won't accept the fact that people throw out good stuff. It might be more true in the suburbs than is the icky scum ridden city, but it is still true.
You just won't accept the fact that people throw out good stuff. It might be more true in the suburbs than is the icky scum ridden city, but it is still true.
Back around 35 years ago, when I was, as the Australians would say, an ankle-biter, my grandfather took me to the dump in Stratford, Connecticut almost every time we visited my grandparents' house. Note I said "dump;" that pretentious term "landfill" wasn't in use back then, fortunately. Now, my grandfather wasn't a skell by any means, he had a respectable executive-level job. But he recognized the fact that many people throw away perfectly good things. I'd surmise that people are even worse in that respect today. So a little "dumpster diving" may not be such a bad thing at all.
"dumpster diving" is much less productive than curbside shopping. If It isn't construction supplies people bag stuff in dumpsters. They also devolop a residue at the bottom. With curbside shopping you can instantly spot prospective items from your car. Dock Hopping is also good because that is where companies pile their old computers, construction supplies and other bulk items.
Certain pallets , used once and head for the dump are made with very hard tropical wood, Some I've used for carving, others for a wood burning stove. Urban Archaeology is a fine and rewarding past time. If many or more then one person read the same newsprint, the message gets to a greater number of people, if its advertizing , the advertizer gets a better bang for his/her buck. A tree somewhere lives a little longer and produces a little more oxygen for us airbreathers. Sounds like a win ,win, win situation.
swipe on exit!
avid
if I finish reading a newspaper in a public waiting room, I will leave it folded up on a seat for the next reader.
By leaving things behind some people will lose respect for the area and start littering.
The Grand Central bins are garbage cans (in that things go in their place), but they are open, making easy access and are clean, in that they have newspapers only.
Situation - You see someone reading an article in a paper or magazine that peaks your curiosity. As the get off they leave it on the seat.
Questions?
1 - If you know the magazine or newspaper do you buy one?
2 - If you don't know which magazine or newspaper it is do you just leave it?
I wouldn't be reading over someones shoulder to begin with. If they were holding it in front of them, and there was a headline I was interested in, I do buy the paper or magazine. Can't tell you the number of times I've bought USA Today because I spotted something on the front page. But that's the whole idea of the front page in the first place. Why do you think they use large type and graphic photos?
-Hank
Ok .. But what if it is in the middle of a newspaper or magazine but you dont know which one ?????
As I said, I would see the cover. And many magazines are easily recognizable, even on the inside.
-Hank
USA Today is an awful paper. There is no substance. Its like reading sawdust. No matter what is on the front page I know there will always be something interesting in the Times. BTW I read my papers in the school library (they put them out after a 4 day delay).
USA Today is a newspaper created by consultants for people who get 90% of their news on television. Most stories in USA Today can be read in less than 3 minutes, which is about as much substance as a TV News item, in fact, almost a minute more.
USA Today always leaves me "empty" and wanting more. I can't stand that feeling.
Which is why most journalism professors refer to it as 'McPaper' That, and the fact that it's virtually the same no matter where you buy it.
It's run by the Gannett Group, which owns several newspapers across the country. Most of the stories in it are culled from wire service reports or these local papers.
-Hank
Like the SEPTA Metro. The only differance the Metro price is right for the content.
Man, that's weird. Maybe New Yorkers are different.
Well while GCT is beautiful to walk around, I rarely buy any food or stuff there. Penn station is more "middle class" in type of food and shops they have, which is my style.
But I do think GCT is more beautiful. Sorta like comparing Roosevelt Field to Sunrise mall, RF is a much nicer mall, but caters more to those with alot of $$.
Man, that's rough. Comparing GCT to a mall. Gotta complain about that one.
Unfortunately, I find myself agreeing with Ms. Skenazy on what's happening to New York, or at least Manhattan south of 110th St. It always had expensive areas, but now everything is starting to become even more pricey. Affordable housing is an oxymoron in New York. I know that when I graduate from college, I will be unable to afford a place to live in the city or anywhere near it. I feel like an outsider in my own city because it is so pricey. All the rich newcomers are taking over Manhattan. I just don't recognize parts of it anymore. It feels strange to me now, due to all the new upscaleness. I'm just going to have to live in another city. It's too bad.
Just spent 1/2 hour in line (or, to translate into NewYorkese, awn line) at the Mets Clubhouse store for my Subway Series T-Shirt. The design: top reads "Subway Series 2000," under which is pictured a rushing train (with sparks flying in front of the wheels???). The Official MLB World Series logo is off to the right side, and the bottom of the shirt reads, "Yanees vs. Mets" with their respective logos. The train picured is at a 45 degree angle, and you can see the front and the side. The front looks like a pre-rebuilt R-32 [corrugated steel top to bottom, storm door with railfan window, 2-windowed destination sign (not the digital one they have now), and the small horizontal ovals to the side which would read 'local' or 'exp', if they were not stylized]. The side looks like a mainline R-33/36 (square, not WF picture, windows) before they were turned into redbirds (i.e., a white horizontal stripe on top, blue on the bottom). The doors look like no doors I've seen on a subway car with a very small window at the very top and what looks like door handles!!. Now, I know no R-32 would ever be found on the Flushing Line at Shea, nor on the IRT in the Bronx, and I'm pretty sure I've never seen one signed up as a 'D' or 'B'. So much for accuracy, eh?
Ok. I just got an idea that I'm a little wacko. I first saw the Subway Series T-Shirt when a colleague of mine bought it. I looked at it and immediately said, "That's an R-32. That's wrong. R-32s don't go to Shea! Or Yankee Stadium!" Ever since then my colleagues here have been making fun of me. "Hey, Pete, is what is that again? A B-52? An r-dash-sixty-nine-A? Ha ha ha ha ha!" I'm like, "Uhh...So I got a hobby. Big deal!" Just thought I'd share that with my fellow railfans.
I saw that same T-shirt on page A77 of yesterday's Newsday in a Sports Authority ad. The front is definitely that of an R32, while the side looks like an R1-9. R1-9s DID run on the D line (so did the R32 cars). How about that, an R1 with an R32 Halloween mask!
This is worth the wait:
R32 Front
R1 Side
Also, on page A78 of the same paper, are very good graphics of R62 cars with the last 2 digits of every year there's been a subway series in a green circle where the route should be. Too bad there wasn't a subway series in 1910, 12, or 14, then the car would be graphically correct. (That is, when you add an extra third rail shoe and remove the extra flange on the wheels.)
I saw that same T-shirt on page A77 of yesterday's Newsday in a Sports Authority ad. The front is definitely that of an R32, while the side looks like an R1-9. R1-9s DID run on the D line (so did the R32 cars). How about that, an R1 with an R32 Halloween mask!
R32 Front
R1 Side
Also, on page A78 of the same paper, are very good graphics of R62 cars with the last 2 digits of every year there's been a subway series in a green circle where the route should be. Too bad there wasn't a subway series in 1910, 12, or 14, then the car would be graphically correct. (That is, when you add an extra third rail shoe and remove the extra flange on the wheels.)
Silly me. My vision was limited to cars in service. The side is definitely the R1-9. I was right on the R-32 front tho.
Man, does that R-32 photo bring back memories of D trains pulling, or gliding, into 34th St. That rounded D was a stark contrast to the angular, square-shaped D on the R-1/9 roller curtains.
The Queens Tribune this week dedicates its cover to the Series, naturally. It has a shot of a 7 train with the Citicorp tower in the background and Mets logo over the front window, and a yellow work train (R-21/22?) signed as "4-Special" with the Yankees logo over the window. So maybe this is the "special" car NYCT is bringing out :). I hope they aren't implying that my Yankees are yellow cowards who hide behind their power hitters ;).
BTW, the Trib had a nice transit section in their "2001 Queens Blue Book," published last month, with photos of redbirds on the 7, an R-68(A?) on the N, and two now-retired or sold QSC RTSs on the Q-65A. There was also a section on "scenic Queens," things one shouldn't miss in the borough as seen through the camera lens of Ira Cohen; the list included Court Square station, but the photo only showed the G train (with posing T/O)!
I saw a Subway Series t-shirt for sale on the street today; I didn't get a great look at it, but it looked like a pair of R110Bs, one silver with a 4 in a green cirlce for the Yankees, and one printed in red with a 7 in a red circle for the Mets.
If only t-shirt designers were railfans...
NYCT has a right to sue for any unauthorized uses of the route logos.
If a vendor is using a shot of a generic subway car (with the route numbers hinden or different than the MTA logos) then they are legally okay.
BMTman
I don't know if the MTA owns the designs. My wife's office (a PR firm that has nothing to do with the MTA) was designed by the same artist who designed the route signs, and many of the small offices on her floor are numbered using the numbers-in-circles motif with the same typeface. The lettering is the same too I think, though obviously the clauses written are not transit-related.
The MTA has an officially licensed skateboard with a train on it. The sell T-shirts with logos on them. I think it does matter, and that MLB is licensing the logos and such for the series.
-Hank
True, but putting numbers on doors of an office is not related to the selling of liscensed merchandise -- that's where the difference lies.
If you look at anything using the route numbers/letters in the MTA style, more often than not you will see a (c) or TM (trademark) symbol next to them.
If not, then chances are the item(s) are bootlegged.
BMTman
You wouldn't but a bootleg Subway Series 2000 hat, would you Doug?
Bob, the cap I was wearing did not include MTA route numbers or letters. So it was 'kosher'.
BMTman
In answer to this, the Modells ads featuring series merchandise say that the Team and MTA logos are trademarks used with permission of Major League Baseball. SO I assume that the MTA has licensed MLB to use their logos and such.
-Hank
Yes, I too saw that line in the ad. It's worded badly so that someone might think that the MTA is a part of Major League Baseball!
BTW, the Modell's over by my job -- at Fulton Street -- was opened an hour earlier than normal (8 am) and they had two different versions of Subway Series T-shirts. A white shirt had the more colorful yet strange looking R-32 (3/4 view) with Yankees and Mets logos. A second version is a black shirt with a headon shot of a "generic" subway train with the team logos at the bottom.
I bought one of each. I am sure that after all this Subway Series madness, you'll be able to buy these shirts at a dime a dozen on the streets.
BMTman
Or $100 apiece on e-Bay
Good point!
BMTman
See my post under "Speaking of Subway Car Designs on T-Shirts ... Trademarks and Such".
Bob Sklar
Could that be the R-11??? [or R-34,depending on how you look at it....] Semi-rounded body with old-style hanging windows that LOOKS to be B division width....
No, it has a rounded roof -- it is without doubt an R-32.
BMTman
10/21/2000
It has an R-32 front and an R1-9 side. Maybe the artist who drew that is a railfan and is getting back at us !
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS !!
Both the "B" and "D" lines were home to R32s well into the 1970's but they haven't been seen there since.
Nobody I know knows how to properly draw a subway car, it seems.
Today's NEWSDAY came very close, down to the rivets on the R36, but alas, the fatal error - the green Bullet #4 was in the operator's window! So much for accuracy. At least the carbody was right.
Wayne
I just came across the web page http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/index.html which has information about the JFK Airtrain project.
According to the Daily News, citing MTA officials, when the historic structure is returned it will neither be a newsstand nor an entrance. It will just sit there. The roof will be replaced with glass, and it will serve as a skylight.
Historic preservation insanity. Think of everything that could possibly be put on that very prominent site. If that kiosk hadn't been there, would anyone propose anything like it? It could be a statue, a clock, some other sculpture, a globe with the cities of the world lit up, a pedastal for a traffic cop to stand on, etc. etc. It could be anything? A cazillion people pass that stop, either in vehicles or underground.
10/18/2000
That "kiosk" is listed on the National register of Historic places. So I guess you idea of a clock etc. it out since the "kiosk' mus come back.
Is this the only IRT kiosk or headhouse that has traveled horizontally? Yep!
Bill "Newkirk"
I thought I read here that they had moved/were moving the headhouse at Atlantic Ave.
Does anyone know if the current R142 & 142A running schedules listed on this site are current? If they're not, does anyone know the current ones? Thanks.
They aren't current and I will take them down when I find the time.
Are they even running?
- Lyle Goldman
no they aren't. its best to just wait till mid november when they start coming in to service. all that are being delivered 4 by 4 that is. each month
One of my duties at work involves editing a weekly newsletter of nationwide state and local tax developments. Using the spellchecker (on a proprietary editing/WP system) is a pain in the posterior because of all the town and county names that get flagged as errors. As usual, the spellechecker suggests alternatives for these "misspellings."
For some reason, the suggested alternatives for New York and New Jersey places names are truly, well, unusual. A representative sampling:
Rockaway - riot away
Camden - condemn
Brunswick - brain sick
Nassau - nausea
Westchester - waste water
10/18/2000
My spell check shows "Newkirk" as Newark !!!
Bill "Newark" opps!
Bill "Newkirk"
Why not add the correct words to the spell checker's dictionary (that is, if it's in a word processor like Microsoft Word. If it isn't, you're outta luck).
You can link here for details.
Chaohwa
Of course, this train is nowhere to be found on the online reservations system...
"Of course, this train is nowhere to be found on the online reservations system... "
The press release said that tickets would go on sale starting November 29th.
right. Even the lame Penn Central took a reservation by phone over a year early for the first Metroliner. BTW some year or so back ATK offered e-mail updates on Acela. I subscribed--I received zip.
Don't diss the Penn Central. The mating worms rule!
Is it just me or did they say Oct. 29 Nov. 7 Nov. 9 before Thanksgiving?
No, it isnt just you. All those dates have been bandied about, some from "official" sources, and some from the railfan nets. Regardless, still write it in pencil. The way the Acela project has been going, any date posted is questionable until the first trains leave Union Station and South Station with revenue passengers on board.
This link contains an article in which the schedule is given: Lv DC 5am, arrive BOS 11:30am. Return: Lv BOS 5:15 pm, arrive DC 11:43pm.
Funny, the daily news said "By Thanksgiving."
Funny, the daily news said "By Thanksgiving." It was on the same page as a rail accident near London.
That French company that they keep mentioning, is it called Alston, Alstom, or Alsthom? The newspaper seems to use the first two interchangeably, the Acela website uses the second, and I've seen the third on some R-68 trains in New York. Which spelling is correct?
- Lyle Goldman
Alsthom recently dropped the h to become Alstom.
How do they work and are they popular/used on the subway? Examples? They should have 4 motors, but I usually only see two. The old double slip is greatly unliked by railroads and is seen as a maintainence nightmare. There are few places that warrent them and many of those are being replaced with normal switches.
They are indeed a maintainance nightmare. They usually have only 2 motors, and each moves 2 sets of points. It's hard to describe, or even draw, in ASCII.
Basically, it's a diamond crossover that allows trains to move to and from any track in the direction they are traveling.
)X( is as close as I can get. The outer rails are continuous. There is a pivot point in the center. Explaining the movements are impossible without a diagram.
-Hank
Just go to the SEPTA platforms at 30th Street and look east.
This came up because I was drawing little double slips in my notebook margins and they had 4 sets of movable points, but when I looked at them during my trip they only had 2 motors and I had no clue how it worked. There is one at SHORE and there used to be 3 at FAIR before Amtrak moved the X over about 1000 feet east and seperated the station switches from the X over portion.
Although double slip switches aren't popular ANYWHERE, they are utilized where length of trackage is limited and a complete interlocking crossover is required, which is a location where track configuration is mandated for moves from ANY one track to ANY of another. Grand Central is one example of this, as a southbound local can cross over to any of the other three tracks in the station. There is not enough "runway" as found in your typical diamond crossovers to allow for a complete move through the interlocking. Where there is space available, these slip switches are never used, which explains why the BMT and IRT use them. The IND with their flying junctions and high speed track, don't have them at all.
Where does the BMT use them? The only ones I've seen on the IRT are at Grand Central and between Nevins Street and Atlantic Avenue.
And then there are crossings at grade, a slip switch without the switches. The only ones I've seen of those are between the 135 and 145 Street stations on the Lenox Avenue line and south of the Pelham Bay Park station on the 6 line.
Here's a rough breakdown of places with single/double slip switches.
IRT: 180th Street
Grand Central
Atlantic Av
Note that the three locations have double slip switches. You could also find a double slip switch at one time on the 4 line in the vicinity of Bedford Park Blvd, as it was a lead coming to and from the Jerome Maintenance Facility. It has since been replaced with individual crossovers.
BMT: Myrtle Av
Broadway Junction
9th Av
Avenue X
Bay 50th Street
Chambers Street
With the exception of 9th Avenue, the other locations have single slip switches. The Chambers Street Junction has a lot of history. The Junction controlled the flow of traffic from both the Williamsburg and Manhattan Bridges, and trains crossed at grade.
-Stef
Now a single slip switch is where you have an shallow angle crossover and there is only one possible diverging route instead of 2.
Furthermore what type of switches are at SHELL interlocking on Metro North. This is where Amtrak train enter the line. I have a blurry picture taken out the back window and the S/B Amtrak line crosses the 2 M/B MNRR tracks with some sort of slip switch or plain X over. If they are slips then what movements are allowed?
BTW what is a normal non-slip switch called?
what is a normal non-slip switch called?
A turnout.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So what is the function of a single slip switch?????
...the link that Jersey Mike provided cleared that one up for me
Here's a picture of a fellow SubTalker moving the points on our manual double-slip switch at the Seashore Trolley Museum. There are four movable points, one each at the four "entrances" to the switch, on the outside rail.
The switch came from the Arborway streetcar yard in Boston. Many call it the "puzzle switch" since it can be confusing to newcomers. When I train operators, I use a hand car to demonstrate how the wheels follow the rails when the points are thrown in various combinations.
(Note the beautiful colors on the trees. This image was taken on October 7, 2000, during our Members' Day... while our colleagues at Branford were having "Autumn in New York.")
I've also heard the term puzzle switch.
There are numerous switches of this type on the approaches to the various railroad stations in Chicago. I'm most familiar with the ones at the Ogilvie Transportation Center (formerly NorthWestern Station) from riding in and out of there daily.
The switches here actually have an additional set of movable points at the crossover frogs themselves, connected by various rods and levers to the points which actually control the train direction.
-- Ed Sachs
The approaches to both North and South Stations in Boston feature numerous double-slip switches, in some cases "linked" where you go from one, to another, to another in rapid succession.
You should have seen the old CNJ station on the Hudson. There were like 14 tracks and 2 complete rows of double slips. I have a picture of a lone switcher in all the mess in a book to illustrait the peril of railroads in the early 70's.
There are only two motors, one at each end of the slip switch,
as the throw and lock rods traverse the width of the switch
and operate four points. They are a pain to signal. As
Engine Brake has already explained, they are needed when
there isn't enough room in a plant to fit normal crossovers.
If you want to see a LOT of double-slip switches, in nearly continuous operation, just go to the LIRR Jamaica station. Stand at the east end of Platform D, between tracks 6 and 7.
The west end ain't too shabby either!
Or anywhere near Penn Station, the K ladder at ZOO (what is left of it), North side of 30th St. Station, North Phidelphia has(d) 2 and switch 92 at Harrisburg. The only double slip I know of on a Freight Railroad is HALEY interlocking in Terre Hote IN.
Thanks, Todd. Your post encouraged me to check it out on my way to the SIR trip (see Thurston’s post). I was running late because a completely full parking lot situation at Hamilton made me miss the planned NJT train, so I lost a half hour. So upon arrival in Penn Station I took the first LIRR train to Jamaica (after standing in line to buy a ticket) and walked to the end of platform D, where the train had deposited me. I wished I still had that half hour that I lost in Hamilton. Jamaica station has been added to my list of New York railfan plans to devote additional time to.
Then the E to the 7 got me to Queensboro Plaza in plenty of time to meet Peggy again and wait for Thurston and Lou from Brooklyn.
Sorry, wrong thread.
Is there a website that discusses switches in detail? I haven't found anything like that here on nycsubway.com, and you seem to use a lot of terms regarding switches that I have never heard of.
- Lyle Goldman
You can go here http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/track.htm
Great link!
1) 1st of 20 Acela Express trainsets now "officially" delivered
2) FRA certification cleared
3) VIP Inaugural Run: Nov 16, nonstop betw. DC & NY, NY & BOS
4) Ticket sales begin 11/29
5) 1st Revenue Service 12/11 Lv DC 5am, Ar BOS 11:30am, Lv BOS 5:15pm Ar DC 11:43pm
6) Top Speeds: Betw. DC & NY, 135mph; Betw. NY & BOS 150mph
7) Trip times: DC-NY 2:44; NY-BOS 3:23
8) 1st "additional" train will have DC-NY nonstop trip @ 2:28
8) 1st "additional" train will have DC-NY nonstop trip @ 2:28
I don't know why they bother with skipping Philadelphia. The train has to crawl past the platforms anyway. Why not make it a flag stop with no baggage service and the train only picks up the passengers waiting on the platform. Until they re-install a second electrified track on the Hi-Line the train will always "stop" at 30th St.. That's one of the purposes the Hi-Line was designed for.
I guess they want people to get hip to the fact that this new service is meant to compete directly with the airline shuttle services, which serve only DC, Boston, and New York. I bet people in Wilmington and Baltimore would feel the same way you do about this nonstop segment, but if you compare the time and expense it takes to get to/from the airports in the 3 "shuttle" cities, and the time you spend sitting on the tarmac, a 2hr 28 minute trip between 2 downtowns is an exceptional alternative to stuffing yourself into a cramped Airbus A320 (which are more comfortable than the 727s, but still less comfortable than a train). I do agree it does seem silly to have to crawl by the platforms at 30th St. without stopping, though.
IIRC, the early Metroliners that skipped 30th Street used a track that ran between the station and the high line, avoiding the platforms altogether.
They still had to slog through the slow terminal trackage. Just like for Army-Navy games of old, they need to install a new track on the Hi-Line and run them straight through from ZOO to ARSENAL. Linespeed would be either 30 or 45 mph which is a lot better than what you get through 30th St.
I don't think there's any baggage service on ANY Acela Express train. Isn't the only Boston-DC NEC train with baggage service the overnight Twilight Shoreliner?
There is no problem with true express runs that skip all stops AS LONG AS there are enough runs at about the same time that make more stops.
Calling it a "flag stop" in Philly would be useless, since it would always stop because there would always be people who wanted to board/alight there. Its a good five minutes minimum as people get on and off. Probably seven.
Are you sure the high line was used for passenger bypasses? I had the impression it was freight only from the beginning. Conrail (SAO) controls it and would be very demanding if Amtrak wanted to get up there. And it is now isolated (or at least amtrak planned to do this) from the passenger tracks at ZOO, both to cut down the number of switches, and as a safety measure to keep freight as far as possible from the corridor. It made more sense for an army-navy special, headed to the other side of the schuylkill, to use the highline, than for trains headed to DC.
I am pretty sure there was another bypass- sort of. If you are taking the paoli local in, as you approach 30th, on the immediate left (north) side of the train you'll first see the NY-pittsburgh subway descending. That disappears underground, and as you get closer into 30th, you'll see another subway, this one with no tracks, or not any usable ones. This lines up perfectly to join the R2 line headed south to join the NEC after it leaves 30th. In other words, this subway was a way to get from the mainline to the NEC as it heads south. Now you could easily route a southbound train from the NEC into that subway - that's what ZOO is for. I think that subway must have been for such bypasses. Anyone know?
Of course, its not available now. And to make things worse, amtrak (ITIW) put a signal bunker in the former ROW. BUT, last time I was riding through there is was very clear that they have cleaned up the amazing amounts of trash that had been dumped into the open portion of the subway. Probably just Republican convention inspired cleanup, but I can always hope. So I say reopen the Wayne-DC subway!
Here's a link that shows this thing
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/arsenal_part2.gif
The track in question is the "Gray's Ferry Branch." The name makes me think it was for freight to go from the west to S. Philadelphia. Now that I've typed all this, it's not obvious to me which would be better for a modern philadelphia passenger bypass. But opening up this subway would definitely be cool. Acela going 100 mph across the highline would be pretty cool, too.
as you get closer into 30th, you'll see another subway, this one with no tracks, or not any usable ones. This lines up perfectly to join the R2 line headed south to join the NEC after it leaves 30th. In other words, this subway was a way to get from the mainline to the NEC as it heads south. Now you could easily route a southbound train from the NEC into that subway - that's what ZOO is for. I think that subway must have been for such bypasses. Anyone know?
In the early phase of the original Metroliners, express trains used that subway to bypass the station platforms.
Yes, I forgot about that connection. SEPTA has also installed the new CP-WALNUT cross over just south of the 32nd St. Tunnel so ACELA trains could access it.
When does this non-stop train start service?
Find the answer to your question and other details at Amtrak.com News & Views.
I found the Polo Grounds Shuttle postings from last Thursday 10/12, and am not able to read through all of them since I'm surfing here at work.
At the risk of being (probably) redundant, is there any indication of a date or month when the project to seal the tunnel will be started? Is it possible to still explore it at present?
I was on last December's tour and would like to go through the tunnel and explore the stations' remains once again, if possible (taking slides this time and with a better flashlight). Does anyone else want to do this one last time? Responses welcomed to this posting and my email address is ed361@yahoo.com. I was not able to go on the second tour and the only reason I haven't been back since, is that it would be safer to go with a group.
I'd been thinking for awhile that this would make a great annual Subtalk field trip in the fall (though the plans alluded to will make this an impossibility now I guess). Longtime Subtalk page visitors would have been able revisit, what is truly a unique and facinating piece of City and transit history, and it would have been a great introduction to this website for newcomers.
Contact Mark W.
He's the man when it comes to Polo Grounds info.
..or you could just read the posts from last
week and see why you could have saved yourself
the five or ten minutes it took you to post
THIS post.
Amy Jo Johnson FOREVER!!
...AKA the lurker 8-)
Let me know when and where and I'll be there. If we set up a group great, if you want to go together, I'd love to get down there or any other abandoned transit spots around the city.
Let me know what you think and let's get this going before they close it all up *"YET AGAIN"*
Marty.
What is the purpose of those stars inside the cars that appear near the doors?
Hasn't this made it to the FAQ stage yet?
The star denotes the location of the brake cut-out.
Is it really behind the panel ?
No under the car.
So what good is a star in the car ??
No, there is an extension handle either behind the door pocket
panel or under the seat. It's sometimes kind of hard to reach
the J handle under the car when that side of the car is, say,
against the tunnel wall.
Has anyone ever seen interior photos of the upper level loop platforms and tracks at Sands Street, or front window views of this trackage as it ramps upwards on Adams (?) Street and curves into the station? If so where can they be located (book, library, archive, etc.)? I've seen the interior picture of the main platforms in Greller and Watson's Brooklyn Elevated book.
I think I posted this question about a year ago, but figured if I posted it again, someone else might see this for the first time who knows if these views exist.
Don't miss tonight's chat shouldn't be missed. It will be at 8 is when it will be. To visit the room Click here to visit the room.
Hope to see you there is where I hope to see you.
This is the complete roster of PCC cars assigned to Mattapan to the best of my knowledge. Changes shown at the times they occurred. Total Cars in Parens ()
Prior to 1955 cars were assigned to Mattapan on a rotating basis from Park St. Carhouse in Dorchester (up to 1948) or from Arborway (1948 onward). Type 4 cars were used from the time the line opened in 1928 and 1929 until 1948. Type 5 cars were used until 1955 when the first PCC cars were assigned.
1955
All Electrics 3197 to 3209 assigned. Type fives in rush hours. (13)
1956
All Electrics 3210 to 3213 assigned. Fewer type fives in rush hours. (17 + 3 Type 5)
1958
All Electrics 3214 to 3215 assigned. All service with PCCs. (19)
1960
Dallas Cars 3330 to 3346 assigned. 3197 to 3215 returned to Arborway. (17)
1961
Dallas Cars 3330 to 3331 returned to Arborway (15)
1966
All Electrics 3197 to 3213 assigned. All Dallas Cars except 3337 returned to Arborway. (17)%
Dallas Cars 3334 to 3336 and 3338 to 3346 assigned. All All Electrics except 3197, 3198, 3201, 3204, 3208, 3209 and 3212 returned to Arborway (20)
1967
All Electrics 3198, 3201, 3204, 3208, 3209 and 3212 returned to Arborway (14)
1968
Dallas Cars 3330 to 3333 assigned. 3342* out of service. (17)
1969
Car 3197 out of service. (16)
1970
Cars 3338 out of service and 3339 retired due to wrecks. 3197 returned to service and 3212 assigned. (16)
1971
Car 3332* out of service. (15)
1972
Car 3338 returned to service. (16)
1973
Car 3197• retired. (15)
1974
Car 3212• retired. Last all electric assigned to Mattapan. (14)
1975
Cars 3333# and 3346 out of service due to fires. (12)
1976
Car 3343* out of service. Car 3346 returned to service (12)
1977
Cars 3335 and 3341 out of service due to wreck. 3335 retired. 3341 returned to service. (11)
1978
Cars 3322, 3325, 3327 and 3328 assigned. (15)
1979
Cars 3330(wreck), 3331, 3336(wreck), 3340(wreck) and 3344 out of service. 3340 returned to service. Others retired. (11)
1980
Cars 3259 and 3266 assigned. First use of rebuilt wartimes at Mattapan. (13)
1981
Line shut down for track replacement. Cars 3259 and 3266 out of service. Cars 3322, 3325, 3327, 3328, 3334, 3337, 3338, 3340, 3341, 3345 and 3346 retired.
1982
Cars 3086, 3087, 3222, 3226, 3244, 3246, 3252, 3255, 3260, 3262, 3263 and 3266 assigned. (12)
1985
Cars 3086, 3087, 3222, 3226, 3244, 3246, 3252, 3255, 3260, 3262, 3263 and 3266 returned to Arborway. Cars 3300, 3303, 3304 to 3307, 3309, 3310, 3312 to 3316 assigned. (13)
Cars 3307, 3309, 3310, 3312 and 3315 retired. Car 3232 assigned. (9)
1986
Cars 3086, 3222, 3230, 3234, 3237, 3238, 3254, 3262, 3263, 3265 and 3268 assigned. (12)
1987
Cars 3086 and 3237 retired due to wreck. Cars 3087 and 3260 assigned. (12)
1993
Cars 3222 and 3262 out of service due to wreck. Car 3222 retired. Car 3262 returned to service. (11)
1998
Car 3268 out of service for rebuild. Car 3265 out of service for rebuild. (9)
1999
Car 3265 in service. Car 3260 out of service for rebuild. (9)
2000
Car 3268 in service. Cars 3087 and 3263 out of service for rebuild (8)
Cars in service as of 10/18/00
3230 3232 3234 3238 3254 3262 3265 3268
Type 3 plows 5136 and 5154 were assigned to Mattapan after 1955. 5154 was retired in 1974. 5136 was transferred to the Green Line in 1981. 5164 was assigned in 1982.
Notes:
% The Dallas cars were returned to the Green Line to allow more flexibility in short turns. This proved unsuccessful due to loading characteristics and they were returned to Mattapan.
• These cars were seldom used after 1970 and usually were stored dead on the loading ramp.
* Cars 3332, 3342 and 3343 were repaired and returned to service on the Green Line.
# Car 3333 was under repair when retired ca. 1978.
You will be glad to know 3303 is our shop right now undergoing rehab for continued service in Brooklyn, NY. 3299 and 3321 are under tarps outside. Any spare parts you might want to donate/trade?
The BHRA obtained the franchise to run trolleys over the streets of Brooklyn yesterday.
Poor Mayor LaGuardia must be turning over in his grave! Those ugly trolleys defiling the streets of Brooklyn again! Seriously, I wish you all the best in getting your operation going. Seashore's Malcolm X filming in Brooklyndrew quite a bit of interest. Hopefully your efforts will be rewarded.
As you probably know already, the picture window cars are quite different from most PCCs. However the largest user of MCM type control in the world was NYCTA, so a lot of the relays and other unique stuff might be available nearby. The equipment is probably only on museum/work cars now so the TA may be selling off its stock. I don't collect parts myself, but Dan Cohen from Seashore does and he is available at: Car6270@aol.com. He is the one to talk to on sales and trades.
Gerry
These questions are about construction projects:
1. At Utica, I see that there was some work with some pipes over the platform. Also, on the NL bound tracks there are construction lights by the provision for the Utica Ave line. What is going on here?
2. At Atlantic, there seems to be construction work going on at the LIRR connection to the IRT. There are wooden boards and the like over there. I know Atlantic is getting a rehab. Is this part of the rehab???
4Train#9279Mike
(In honor of the AL champs)
When I was at game 1 of the Yankees' division series, I was lucky enough to be seated in the last seat of the left field upper deck -- a perfect view down on the platform for the 4. I couldn't help glancing over each time a train went by, and at around 10 PM, I noticed an R142 go by. I saw it stop, but did not look down in time to see whether or not it picked up passengers. I checked all the schedules for the new trains, and didn't see anything about it running on the 4. Also found nothing here on subtalk about this. Was the train running on the 4's tracks en route to the yard, or were they actually testing on the 4?
They probably were doing some T/O training, mayhaps this is an indication of things to come when the 142s return to passenger service?
The R-142's are not planned for the 4, but I guarantee you will see some there !!!
And the reason will be reroutes !!!!
If that is the case, what will replace the Redbirds on the 4 Line? I think the TA will try to get something there that is as close to R62s as possible. Does the R142 or R142A fit that description?
running on...
or
The 4 will probably get 62A's for reqular service, but you know that sooner or later a #6 reroute will be sent to Woodlawn
Have a nice evening !!
Only one R142A train from the 6 line(either 7211-7220 or 7221-7230)will be on the 4 line for the duration of the Subway Series.
After the games, it will return to the 6 line.
Are you sure it's for the duration of the series? I heard they were already off the 4 line.
A Kawasaki R-142A Train and a Bombardier R-142 Train were both out for testing yesterday.
This is the first time I can recall both trains going on the road nearly the same time (testing was done in the evening).
142A 7221-30
142 6311-20
6316-20 have reverted baack to normal 5 car configuration as 6312 was pulled and put back with 6311-15.
-Stef
You didn't happen to see Bob Uecker anywhere up there, did you?:-)
I have been reviewing those .exelent NYC Subway track maps that helped launch nycsubway.org and I've noticed that there are very few full crossovers on 3 or 4 track main lines. Its almost like the builders went out of their way to do a 1/2 assed job. Every interlocking is usually designed to allow only one direction of traffic to crossover to any of the other tracks. Usually this is due to use X overs (shaped like an X). Here are some examples, I'll number tracks from east to west.
BMT Chambers St. You can't get from track 4/3 to track 1.
IRT Chambers St. You can't get from track 1/2 to 4 or 3/4 to 1
IRT 14th St. is almost conpletely useless
IRT Grand Central won't allow crossover from 1 to 4 against the flow of traffic.
The only complete interlocking I found was at BMT 42nd/34th.
People are always posting about how accidents and fires and jumpers and dead cars always tie up the system. Some full crossovers could help solve this problem.
NOTE: Pardon me if I got my divisions screwed up.
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I think it is fitting that for this final subway series of the 2nd millenium that the redbirds will have the honors of transporting the fans at least to one of the stadiums. I'm not familiar with the subway system up there since I'm from Philly, but this will be a memory to cherish for all of you baseball/railfans (as I cherish the memory of the 1980 World Series, riding the old Broad Street Subway trains to the Vet).
riding the old Broad Street Subway trains to the Vet
Was your pet OK?
I'm surprised you didn't mention how "millennium" has two n's and there is no "z" in trains. (:-)
- Lyle
I usually don't pay attention to the subject.
And no, I will not correct people's names because when people choose their name, they can spell it however they want.
That's a good one!
Yes & I will be there to shoot this on video & digital still shots as well !! I really will enjoy this well !!!
Now it has been a little while since I rode on the Myrtle Avenue Line, but I do remember using a paper transfer at the southern end to change to the BMT. What station was I using then? Was it the Myrtle Avenue Station? I also remember something about having to get the paper transfer to the Myrtle at Broadway-Nassau Street in Manhattan. Can this be correct? And if so what was the reason for it.
Thanks, Elias
10/18/2000
Sounds like that paper transfer to the IND at the Bridge-Jay St. station at the far southern end of the defuncyt Myrtle Ave. line.
There was no physical connection from the Myrtle to the IND at Jay St. Boro Hall, so the paper transfer. I believe it had somehting to do with the Myrtle being cut back to Bridge-Jay St. in 1944. The IND transfer seemed to be a substitute for service to Broadway-Nassau in place of Myrtle Ave service to Park Row.
Bill "Newkirk"
There was also a paper transfer to go from the B54 Myrtle bus going east to change to the M/J el at Broadway/Myrtle. The old el extended for a ways west of Broadway, with the abandoned el station above. I remember as late as the early '80's the old M/J station had an REALLY old glass box for the transfer drop at the gates, which were tied open, No matter whether you actually had a transfer or not you could get on. This is when the ride was still 50 cents.
For a long time there was also a paper transfer from the "J" to the B24 bus on Broadway at Marcy St. to replace the Broadway Ferry spur. The subway maps in the late 1980s still showed this.
There was also what must have been the most complicated transfer procedure anywhere, also related to the Myrtle Av. El. It was presumably intended to serve in place of the long-lost running of the BRT El's over the Brooklyn Bridge.
There was a transfer between Jay St-Borough Hall (then the "A", "E" and "D") and the Myrtle Av. El at Bridge-Jay Sts station. It worked like this:
1. To transfer TO the Myrtle Av. El it was necessary to obtain a ticket when paying cash fare at the Broadway-Nassau Station on the "A" and "E" (no transfers from the other lines). This presumably precluded any transfer from the "D".
2. To transfer FROM the Myrtle Av. El it was necessary to obtain a ticket when boarding the El at any station west of (not including) Broadway. It was then possible to transfer to the "A", "E" or "D".
I always wondered, and still do, whether all this rigamarole was REALLY necessary!
Bob Sklar
OK, heres a question for the old timers and/or experts. I remember reading the footnotes on the old maps about that complicated paper transfer system at Bridge/Jay where you either had to get a transfer at Bway/Nassau or any Myrtle station W/O Bway but not including Bway. However, did they ever change it to a non-restricted paper transfer before the end in the late 60's?? I definitely remember changing from the Myrtle to the IND at Bridge/Jay numerous times and I always got on the Myrtle from either the Bway El or the LL train. I might be wrong but I don't think as a teen I would've paid a second fare to railfan. I would've went back to the J or the LL.
I can talk about old times, but I never left the station at Bridge-Jay. Coney Island could have been under that station and I would never have known it. I spent a lot of time on the platform there however. I frequently got off at Metropolitan Ave though for a pretzel stick and a coke. After refreshmants, I came back in. I never had need for a transfer. On one occasion the agent let me back in without having to pay another nickel.
And this weird transfer system continued on the B54 bus all the way into the late 80's/early 90's. It never made any sense to me.
I assume it's original intent was to discourage transfers from the #11 (Myrtle Ave line) and the IND, killing off potential thru-ridership (some people might get on at Fresh Pond, ride the el to Bridge, then take the IND into Manhattan). The city did absolutley nothing to make the el an attractive alternative to it's subway lines.
It's been a LOTTA little while since anyone has ridden the old Myrtle Av. el.
32 years to be exact.
31
I thought the Myrtle Av el was closed in 1968. Jeffrey Rosen said it was 1969 so I looked it up in your site and it was listed as 1969.
However, when I looked at it again under "NY Subway-Line by Line/BMT Nassau St./Myrtle Av. branch", it said that the "Q" cars were in service on the Myrtle Av. line until 1968. I thought that these cars stayed in service up until the closure of the line. Check it out and let me know ok?
The Q cars ran until 10/20/69, the date the Myrtle Ave. line bit the dust.
Hey wait: wasn't that 31 years ago today? Another sad anniversary on the demise of another unwanted elevated line ...
Another unwanted line that is badly needed. Try to wait for a B54 bus in either direction.:(:(
4Train#1560Mike
The correct date for closure on the Myrtle Avenue El was Saturday, October 4, 1969. Regular passenger service ended VERY EARLY that morning, with a charter/railfan trap later that day.
wayne
You're correct with the closing date. I'm suprised nobody brought it up when the anniversary was approached.
Yep, I was among the last passengers to ride the "MJ". My folks and I took a fan trip that evening, going up and down the line a few times before they closed it.
wayne
The Q cars were in service until Myrtle Avenue "el" service was discontinued in October 1969.
David
The date will be:
Sunday, October 29th
I will post time and meeting info soon.
If you hae any questions, Please mail me.
Remember, This is a limited space tour. Only 25 people will be admitted. Mail me as soon as you can to confirm.
All right Mark !
OK folks you've been asking for some field trips ...
This is a must for the railfan. I've been on one done by the ERA there recently so I'll leave my spot for one of you. Bring plunty of film for your camera & a good pair of walking shoes. The F train drops you off at the entrance to the place & lunch can be had at Coney Island, just a stones throw away, but be on the look out for heypaul who has been know to be roaming around the area.
Mr t__:^)
Damn! Sunday is not going to work for me. Family day (Blah!). You still have 25 spaces.
running on...
or
I'm going to be flying back home to Denver out of LGA that morning. What luck!
Would have liked to have gone. Both other dates were Saturdays. I work Sundays.
Go to this page http://www.eastrailnews.com/dailydigital/101700dd.html and make sure to read the caption. I know its an HHP-8, but its still a great shot.
BTW why didn't SEPTA install hi-level platforms at their premier park and ride facility?
>BTW why didn't SEPTA install hi-level platforms at their premier park and ride facility?
A pathetic lack of vision?
I just saw a Channel 6 Action News blurb on the ACELA service due to start Dec 11. After some nice Amtrak publicity shots they went into a piece about people who have fled the sprall and overcrowding of Suburban NY (Long Island mainly) to live in Bucks County PA. These people were extoling the virutes of the train. Amtrak sold 57,000 Trenton - NY tickets this year and that is up 30,000 from a few years ago. They then said that NJT is planning to build a station accross the river in PA to serve these commuters.
I now see that the reason I lost my photo-ops on my trip was because of Yuppies with too much disposable income. These people make me sick not because they fill up valuable train space, but because in the process of "finding a better place to live" they trash whole regions with sprall. Basically they already f***ed up Long Island so now its time to move to PA and start again. One of the reasons they flee is because of local taxes. Well then an area fills up with immigrants who all demand services guess what's going to happen to those low taxes. My mom works in Jackson Twp. NJ (Great Adventure) and over the past 8 years that place has filled up with New Yorkites who wanted low property taxes. Well now the schools are jam packed. kids are learning in trailers and the people who wanted low taxes get to pay for a new school. BTW if they wanted some open space its now been filled with devolopments, mini-malls, SUV's and car habitat. So you can see I had every right to be mad at loosing my whole row on the Vermonter. Suburban, SUV driving Yuppies are an acceptable target here on SubTalk.
(Actually my train was filled with college kids, like myself comming home from fall break. Most of them were from my own school so I guess I can't really "blame" anyone but myself for picking the wrong train.)
Commuting to NYC from Pennsylvania -- Bucks County or the Deleware Water Gap region -- is growing, but people have been doing it for years. It was even the subject of controversy during a mass transit strike 20 years ago when some Ch. 7 anchor was late getting into the city due to traffic and Roger Grimsby asked a reporter doing a live remote from the Lincoln Tunnel, "Have you seen (whatever his name was) limo yet?"
Even the dean of Philadelphia TV news anchors, KYW-3's Larry Kane commuted from Bucks County to Manhattan to work at Channel 7. He was only at Eyewitness News for a short time, however, I think due to a fall-out with Roger Grimsby as well as the long distance. New York may be the largest media market in the US, the one so many news people dream of working in. But Mr. Kane decided to go back to working in Philly. And I don't blame him one iota for leaving Channel 7 and New York. It wasn't worth the long commute just to work in New York.
Why can't all those crazies who wrecked the Island and are going to wreck Bucks and Mercer Counties realize that? Why can't they get jobs closer to home? They have a perfectly good city to their south in Philadelphia. Why on earth can't they get jobs there? It's a nice city, it's more relaxed, and it's still a major city. As for those people moving further upstate and into Litchfield and New Haven Counties in Connecticut, why can't they get jobs in Hartford or somewhere closer to home?
My point is, people are moving further and further away from New York City in search of cheaper housing and lower taxes and a nicer quality of life. But guess what? They're still not going to get it! Why? Because they still continue to commute to New York and still must deal with its overburdened streets and rails. But now those commutes are even longer. They're getting up earlier and going to bed later. High prices and sprawl are only going to catch up to them. And what for? Just to work in New York? If the prices didn't keep skyrocketing in New York City and its immediate surroundings, maybe people wouldn't have to move so damn far away from it and maybe they could lead better, less stressful lives. The respose of "Hey, this is New York" is NOT an excuse for that.
But like I've said before, if you must live really far from New York (over 50 miles), just to get a more affordable house or lower property taxes, then it's not worth it. There are plenty of good, vibrant cities across the country, which are good places to work with good qualties of life and affordable places to live and they have suburbs which are even more affordable. The Northeast alone has plenty of affordable places to live that are nice and have better qualities of life.
I was born and raised in this city and I enjoyed growing up here. I don't want to leave it. But I don't love what New York is becoming. I don't want some Arkansas/Illinois phony liberal carpetbagger who's only looking out for her own ego and political career as my next Senator. I think an 8% sales tax is excessive. I don't want to keep hearing about brilliant plans to build new rail and subway lines from politicians who have no real interest in building them. I don't want to see an overpaid corrupt Board of Education that squanders my hard-earned tax money. And I don't want to have a choice between overpriced housing or a cardboard box. I want to live in a city because I'm not a suburb person. But if New York continues to price itself out my range, then I'll just have to live in another city. I have no intention of commuting 100 miles each way to commute to New York, when I can be a half hour or less to my job by subway, light rail or bus in another northeast U.S. city and pay much less for it.
Thanks for the Larry Kane ID, I couldn't remeber who Grimsby took the shot at.
The long-distance commuting problem is becoming pandemic around the country. Living around the Water Gap is a 70 mile comnmute and coming from Bucks County is a 75- to 90-mile drive, but it puts those people in the same boat as those who live in Ventura or Riverside County and commute into L.A., the ones living south of San Jose and drive into San Francisco, the D.C. residents living up in Hagerstown, Md., or the people along I-35 in Texas who drive up to 75 miles one way to communt to Austin or Dallas.
Most of these people make good, but not great salaries, and decide commuting costs are offset by the cheaper housing/lower property taxes
that the far-off towns provide. But if the price of gas heads back up towards $2 and more, the commuting costs for those people could go through the roof and force them to choose either a job closer to home or a home closer to job.
Many of the "super-commuters" in the New York area are driven by race. You could get an affordable house closer in, but many of your neighbors will be Black, Latino, or recent immigrants. And college-educated Whites are less likely to be troubled by that than non-college educated Whites.
As native-born Whites move to minority status in the NY region as a whole, there are fewer and fewer places where those who haven't gone to college get to live just with people like themselves. And many of those places are way out on the exurban fringe.
There is a demographer named Frey who has charted a historically aberrant pattern. Generally, people with more education have been more likely to relocate. In the New York Area and California, however, it is high-school educated Whites who are leaving in droves, generally for small metros which are 90+ percent White. College educated whites are pouring in to New York and California, along with immigrants. Frey believes that the country will become divided between areas that are young, educated, vibrant and multicultural and those that are old, less educated, stagnant, all white and resentful.
A nice analysis.
My parents moved to Pennsylvania when dad retired. While he worked, we lived on Long Island, and Merrick was a good commuting distance. When he retired, he wanted to move off of the Island, just to avoid city traffic, but still be close enough to drive in occassionally. (well... actually, take the bus) He chose a place that had (at that time) low taxes, but even the inner city areas of Pennsylvania towns are very multi-ethnic today. East Stroudsburg is a mixed city, and Blacks as well as Whites commute to New York City from there.
The more well-to-do move to finer houses outside of town-limits, and the older housing stock is being bought up or being rented by those of lesser economic power. This is clearly a repeat of the forces that were seen in NYC in the early 50s.
I do believe that urban and suburban sprall will consume the entire east coast between Boston and Richmond. I do not think that the blame for this can be laid at the feet of anyone or group.
Elias
>>> Many of the "super-commuters" in the New York area are driven by race <<<
I think "race" is too simplistic a reason for the flight to the exurbs. Usually the motivation is to provide the family with a home with a backyard and good schools. Those moving so far away cannot afford to purchase close in, and feel that they cannot afford to send their children to private schools. Their solution is to get out of the big city to a small community, where they are in control of the public schools through a much smaller elected school board. To some extent they may be prejudiced and connect minorities to higher crime rates and lower performing schools, but it is not the old fashioned dislike of anyone different than themselves.
Tom
It is 75 miles from here to Bismarck, but.... If you don't want to milk a cow.... then that *is* the closest city!
Which is to say, that a 75 mile commute would not be considered at all unsual out here on the plains of North Dakota.
BTW: we *do* have low taxes too.
Elias
I now see that the reason I lost my photo-ops on my trip was because of Yuppies with too much disposable income. These people make me sick not because they fill up valuable train space, but because in the process of "finding a better place to live" they trash whole regions with sprall. Basically they already f***ed up Long Island so now its time to move to PA and start again. One of the reasons they flee is because of local taxes. Well then an area fills up with immigrants who all demand services guess what's going to happen to those low taxes. My mom works in Jackson Twp. NJ (Great Adventure) and over the past 8 years that place has filled up with New Yorkites who wanted low property taxes. Well now the schools are jam packed. kids are learning in trailers and the people who wanted low taxes get to pay for a new school. BTW if they wanted some open space its now been filled with devolopments, mini-malls, SUV's and car habitat. So you can see I had every right to be mad at loosing my whole row on the Vermonter. Suburban, SUV driving Yuppies are an acceptable target here on SubTalk.
Before condemning suburban sprawl, consider the famous remark of the French actor Maurice Chevalier. When he was in his late 70's or thereabouts, an interviewer asked him if he minded growing old. He thought for a moment, and then said that growing old is far better than the alternative.
Suburban development is much the same. It may not be esthetically pleasing and usually does not represent the most efficient uses of the land. But the fact that a metropolitan area has rapidly expanding suburbs means that the area is growing both in terms of population and economics. Put differently, the absence of suburban growth is a sign that the area's population and economy are stagnant or even declining. If that's what you want, fine, but I'll take a vibrant economy even if it means some so-called "sprawl."
I have to disagree. Most sprawl is indicative of the abandonment of big cities. People will still work in the city, because they have no other choice, but they choose to live as far from the city as commuting allows them to be. When suburban office parks start popping up, it spells even greater doom for the city. True, it does mean the metropolitan area as a whole is doing well, but the opposite for the city itself. New York doesn't really follow this pattern, since some of its "suburbs," like White Plains, would be its own major city if it were in, say, Iowa.
I have to disagree. Most sprawl is indicative of the abandonment of big cities. People will still work in the city, because they have no other choice, but they choose to live as far from the city as commuting allows them to be. When suburban office parks start popping up, it spells even greater doom for the city. True, it does mean the metropolitan area as a whole is doing well, but the opposite for the city itself. New York doesn't really follow this pattern, since some of its "suburbs," like White Plains, would be its own major city if it were in, say, Iowa.
Suburban growth does not have to be at the expense of the center city. A growing population and economy can support both the cities and the suburbs quite well. Remember, some people and businesses are attracted to cities, others to suburbs, and therefore a metro area with a strong central city and thriving suburbs will not automatically be crossed off anyone's list.
As far as the White Plains situation is concerned, it's hardly unique to the NYC area, but is repeated in many places throughout the country (Tyson's Corner, Schaumburg, San Jose, Alpharetta, many others),
Many people are forgetting that the subway in New York was not built to promote higher density in the urban core. It was done to achieve just the opposite effect. With the rapid trains, people were able to move to the empty fields at what was then the periphery of the city (from a development, not political standpoint) to comfortable apartments or homes, instead of the tenements which were previously the only practical place to live.
The problem with increasing outwardliness is that the transit system is not built to support that. Something fast (maybe even mag-lev, but trains themselves were also pretty old in 1904, there's no reason we can't improve on that). One solution is to eliminate zoning and to expand the high rise belt outward to take over the current moderate density belt. And the same can happen to the medium-low density to medium density and so on.
Then earth looks like it does in those dark Sci-Fi movies with huge cities as far as the eye can see. No Thank You!
Those are wonderful.
The whole world, except for those few nice natural places should look like Coruscant.
We have way too many cornfields.
"We have way too many cornfields."
Ah Hem... ?
What were you planing to EAT! ?
Elias
Does anyone know if NYCT is planning on running any special train arrangements (museum cars perhaps) to commemorate the start of the games on Saturday?
I would think that a special set of cars could be painted in Yankee pin-stripping for the #4 Line. Or maybe a set of Redbirds could be done up in Mets colors. This could be done in a few days by the paint shop. It would be a cool idea.
BMTman
i've heard on my p wire that 4 sets of r142a's are at this moment being readied for special world series service... as soon as they pass their acceptance tests, they will be ready for immediate service for the world series of 2001...
in the meantime, in conjunction with the transit museum, doug diamond will host a special historical walking and derelict car tour that will start at the location of the former ebbott's field, walk along the right of way of the franklin shuttle to franklin avenue, and then pack into the 3 q cars currently residing at 39th street which will be hitched to his chrysler 300... doug plans to use the interboro parkway, now called the jackie robinson parkway, and hopes to set a new speed record passing through the cemetery area and especially on the hairpin turn at the queens end of the parkway...
Yes, and heypaul will act as the conductor (of electricity) if any of the third rail shoes fall of the cars due to the daredevil T/O manuevors.
BMTman
"heypaul will act as the conductor"
i am happy to say that the subway series special will be OPTO... i will be stationed at a stategic point on the interboro parkway to study how the 3 cars negotiate the hairpin curve right near the merge with the grand central...
those are back-to-back "S" curves just east of Cypress Hills Street and they are appropriately in the Cemetery. Fastest I ever did there was 60MPH on a wet (grooved) track in my old 1978 Mercury Zephyr. I stayed astride the center line and played it back and forth.
wayne
During an interview on Mike and the Mad Dog yesterday, Rudy mentioned that a car on the 7 would be made up in Met colors and a car on the 4 would be made up in Evil Empire colors. (Although, I don't think he used those exact words.)
Blue sides and orange doors, perhaps, with interlocking NYs? Frankly, I wish the Mets would put the pinstripes back on their home uniforms.
On Tuesday I wore my Mets Blue pinstripe and orange braded uniform top to school. My students thought that was cool, especially when I sang, "Meet the Mets, greet the Mets, etc,. The powers that be in the school knew better than to make any comments except to smile and enjoy the day with me. I can tell you Steve, and all you other Mets fans out there, it was a hell of sight to see. If the Mets win the World Series I'm wearing the whole uniform to school
Whose number is on your uniform? I've seen replica 1969 jerseys with Tom Seaver's 41 and Nolan Ryan's 30.
#44. That's my favorite number and the number I wore when I managed Babe Ruth and Stan Musial baseball teams for 18 years. My Stan Musial team was called the San Gabriel Valley Mets.
>>> a car on the 4 would be made up in Evil Empire colors. <<<
Let's keep Microsoft out of this series. :-)
Tom
Everyone knows I'm nostalgic, but when I hear about the #4 train on this site and on tv, I get a pain in my stomach. To me the #4 train will always be the Sea Beach of my childhood. I just can't help it. I even dream that someday I will wait for the Sea Beach at some station and a #4 will show up. I suppose that is a sign of getting on in years, but I can tell you, honestly, I'm young at heart.
Well, maybe you'll happen to be in the city when a Triplex train on a fantrip goes by sporting #4 signs. There were three such trips this past summer. Thanks to heypaul, I have a tape recording of one of them.
Of course, there's always 6095 at the museum.
Steve: If I knew for sure when such a Triplex #4 was scheduled to run, I'd hop the first plane to New York. Maybe next summer. Someone out there clue me in if there is one running in the spring.
I believe that the one D-type set that has the front end curtain roll, that is 6112C, it is set to "3" because either the mechanism will not turn or the oilcloth curtain roll is too aged and fragile to withstand turning. You'd think they could get an artisan to make a replica oilcloth sign for the other cars....
wayne
Young at heart? Have you considered signing up for an organ dononr program?
avid
Ouch!!! Say, you're not from the Bronx are you? I'm none too popular there.
Or the former Soviet Union.:-)
BMTman:
I think that the TA should roll out the IRT Low Vs just for the occasion and run them on the #4 line. If there enough R-12s, R-14s and R-15s around they should run those on the #7 line because that is what was running the last time there was a subway series. The newest cars they had at the time of the last subway series were the R-16s and the R-17s.
BMTJeff
I don't think any of the R-12/14/15/17 work cars in NYC are still operational, the doors are manual and the cars have no motors.
Henry R32 #3730:
You're probably right that none of the R-12/14/15/17s are operational but, there are at least 4 operational Low Vs so they can run those for the occasion.
BMTJeff
They could roll out the four IRT SMEES at the Transit Museum. However, someone said they weren't operational and had been cannibalized for parts.
If someone would kindly put back the missing parts, that would be much appreciated. The one that may actually work is 9306.
-Stef
I have heard that NYCT plans on having two lead cars done up in wraps for both teams. An R-62 will be outffited in white with blue pin-stripping. And for the #7 train a Redbird will be dressed in a blue and orange wrap. This will apply to the lead car of one train each (as far as I know). There was not enough time to dress up a full train of cars for this weekned.
BMTman
Is BMTMan, related to BMTJeff??
Should I change my handle to BMTLou??
Can we get a Hero (Hoggie) named after BMT??
Look BMTMan you started a BMT Fan club.
Why not just repaint the R36 cars to that blue and white like they were in the '60s? Send 'em out the way they came in?
good idea that paitn scheme was tight
that won't happen. subway service is so crucial that the TA will not take time out to make a special train for subwayseries. everyone will ride the train like everyone else who isn't going to the game. i bet ya. don't even think of R-142 and 142A's being up to snuff because those suckers won't be in service till late late october to early to mid november.
There will be a special train but it will be for the Governor & other VIPs.
Lets hope the Governor doesn't scratch up the windows.
Is there any NYCT rolling stock set up for the handling of dignataries, similar to business cars used by the freight railroads
No special cars exist. And they should'nt. They ride the same crappy cars as the rest of us.
They ride the same crappy cars as the rest of us.
As in ones with octane powered internal combustion engines.
Although the ones with the big center window aren't so crappy. Or so I hear.
There is the "Mineola" that was owned by IRT mogul August Belmont. It was recovered from farmland in New Jersey and is now part of the collection at Branford Electric Railway.
I believe the subject of this car can be found in the archives of SubTalk.
FYI, the Mineola was a wooden-bodied subway car decked out with ornate wooden columns, a kitchen, 1/2 bath, dining/evening room (with parlor mirror), and a "den" containing a beautiful rolltop desk.
Belmont used the car to transport his guests in luxury from his Belmont Hotel, to the famed racetrack baring his name on Long Island. To do this, a spur was installed at Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn whereby his car from the Lexington Line could be run over the Atlantic Avenue Branch of the Long Island Rail Road.
So far as I know there are no "parlor cars" existing today -- at least not in the NYCT.
BMTman
There is the yellow bus body on flatcar inspection car that was the star of the March of Dimes farewell to the Redbirds trip in August.
That thing looks like a cross between a Blue Bird and a redbird (Get It).
This discussion came up over lunch with some coworkers: wouldn't it be a great publicity stunt if both teams rode the subway to one game? To avoid mobs of fans at Grand Central or Fifth Avenue/42 Street, the train would have to ride continuously. So from the 7, it could switch to the N tracks toward Manhattan, reverse direction and wrongrail along the R tracks to Queens Plaza, follow the Manhattan-bound F, and cross over to the Bronx-bound express tracks around 47-50 Streets to Yankee Stadium. Better yet, follow the F all the way to Coney Island and come back along the West End or Brighton line so Brooklyn doesn't feel left out. Of course, regular subway service would be a nightmare, and the amount of reversing direction and switching is reminiscent of this year's Nostalgia Train :) (which is actually how we got on the topic...).
Don't put it past the NYCT PR people to organize such a stunt.
And I bet they'll try to snare Mike Piazza, Joe Torre, Dereck Jeter, or the like to do TV spots or subway car ads promoting the MetroCard.
I believe some publicity stunts involving Rudy G., Gov. Pataki and both teams are in the works.
BMTman
Hey New York- You are in for a heckuva great time what with the METS,
and the YANKEES both in the series. I work at MANDALAY BAY HOTEL/AND-
CASINO on the Las Vegas strip; so I meet with countless New Yorkers.
From what I've seen,I am just facinated with your passion and genuine
love of the game of Baseball. This brings to light the fact that there
has got to be a supplimental service on the Shea Stadium/Willets pt.-
from Manhattan lines, and the 163'rd/Yankee Stadium from mid-town
Manhattan lines for the pre-game to post-game time frame. I would hope
there would also be supplimental bus service, and even Backup transit
just in case something happens on the main "trunk" lines.Included with
this might be,Satellite parking with shuttle service,bulking up bus
service, and increased INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE! GO NEW YORK!
The MTA might run some special No. 7 express service over the weekend to Shea, and of course the police presense will be built up hugely, especially the night whichever team wins the thing. But since the No. 4, 7 and B/D already been dealing with crush crowds in the first two rounds of the playoffs, they'll probably keep to the same schedule they used for those games, which includes about six extra put-in trains on the 7 at Willets Pt. and 10 on the 4 and B/D lines at 161st-River Ave. (which is not an express stop, making post-game loading a little tougher to coordinate).
BTW -- Is your neighbor down the stip, New York, New York, doing anything special for the World Series?
There is extra service added for all Yankee games on the 4 and D. The extra D after the game is normally a B train (R68A) signed D on the front end (they never change between cars). Some run only to West 4th, some run to Coney Island Express in Bronx and Brooklyn as well.
After a soutrhbound train leaves 161st Street, it can never be an express in the Bronx!! The next station is 155th Street in Manhattan !!
It runs express on the local track
Peace,
ANDEE
But not in the Bronx !!!!! Once it leaves 161st Street in goes under the river and is in Manhattan
Gawd this site is getting so picky, OKAY OKAY EXPRESS IN MANHATTAN!!
There I said it, okay happy. I think you understood my post anyway.
Maybe they'll some 7 expresses back to Manhattan after the games at Shea.
Maybe they'll run some 7 expresses back to Manhattan after the games at Shea.
Sorry about that.
Thanks to:Lou from Bronx,JRF,SUBWAYSURF,Save B-8AVERP for response!!!!
All it takes is a message from a Curious NY FAN living in Las Vegas,to
get great responses from dyed-in-the-wool New yorkers. Thank you for
being the Greatest, Most knowledgeable sports fans in the FREE WORLD!
Have a great party;I'll be video-taping this History Making Event, and
I'll be moving on to Yankees Website, and, Mets Website for sporttalk,
and save this space for The honorable transit talk forum that is
expressed here. Hey, Keep it SAFE, OK!!!!! Show the rest of the U.S.-
who REALLY HAS CLASS!!!!!! GO NY!!
What's the attitude in Vegas towards the proposed Los Angeles/Las Vegas Amtrak service. Any updates? Any strong feelings there for/against? Local news/op-ed? In other words, is it on the radar screen there at all?
Also, were you living there the last time there was train service in Las Vegas? I think Amtrak had "The Desert Wind" which ran to Salt Lake City through there (I could be wrong) up until a decade or so ago. Is the train station still intact, and if so, what is it used for? I hear the proposed Amtrak service will have a new station closer to the strip....
Thanks in advance if you can answer.
Keystone Pete
>>> What's the attitude in Vegas towards the proposed Los Angeles/Las Vegas Amtrak service <<<
I do not know about the attitude in Las Vegas, but here in Los Angeles I was unaware of any plans for service. The former service had the station attached to one of the downtown casino hotels (The Plaza IIRC). It was possible for someone to go from Los Angeles to Las Vegas, get off the train and never see daylight while they were in Las Vegas. Because of all the dense building on the Strip all the way out to the airport, I do not see how they could move the station closer to the Strip.
Tom
I'm sorry that this wasn't sent do Dave Pirman, I've been too busy at work and with internet access cut off as well (no WAN No Internet). Someone could have jumped in and helped. I'm still going and will be on the 5pm Boat or see below for details to meet at Eltingville (you could always take the X1, X4, X5 or X6 express bus to meet the group at Eltingville Train Station >G<) I've reposted the entire first post below (sorry). I'm also meeting a few people at Queens Plaza for the trip to South Ferry. I still think we should do this trip next summer with more light and more station stops but lets see how it turns out.
REPOST:
I know this is late notice and the sun will set at 6:30pm but here is my plan for a visit to the Staten Island Railway.
I've listed three different Staten Island Ferry Boats you can meet to meet or catch up to the group. Please email any questions.
3:30pm #7 Meet QueensBoro Plaza Manhattan Bound Head End to 42nd St for the 2/3 and then 1 to South Ferry
5:00pm Staten Island Ferry Boat Meet On the Boat Upper Deck (I don't know which Class of Boat runs make it the top deck) Manhattan End.
5:30pm Train 86 Head Car Make Sure it is the Express First Stop Great Kills Train you get on. The local (skips 1st 3 stops) is at 5:32.
We will detrain at Eltingville (2nd Stop) at 5:47 to allow others to catch up and get a bite to eat (Burger King, Pizzia, Bagel Store)
5:15 Boat for the Train 90 5:47 Express to Eltingville get off meet group at the Tottenville platform or check the above three eateries.
5:30 Boat for the Train 94 6:02 Express STAY ON THE TRAIN at Eltingville Head Car to meet Group at Eltingville, the Group will be boarding this train at Eltingville.
The Group will baord train 94 at Eltingville at 6:19pm going to Tottenville to arrive at 6:35pm.
Return Trip might be (up to group) the 6:50 train this will allow us to get off at TWO other stations(decided by the group) like Atlantic or Nassau or Dongan Hills. There is another train 10 minutes later and then five minutes after that for Train 113 to catch the 8:30 boat back to South Ferry arriving SF 8:55. I know that is tight so we might just to one extra station stop.
If anyone wants to stop at more stations note from that point each train will meet a boat by it is now a 30 minute headway.
Some things to see:
St George (on the end of the field trip if you want to miss a boat).
Most From the Trian:
MOW Tomkinsville
Elevated Running Stapleton/Clifton
Navy Pier Stapleton
MOW Clifton
Old South Beach Cutoff Clifton
High Speed (haha) run to Grasmere
Old siding for Staten Island Advance
Old Elevated Siding Dongan Hills
Open Cut running Grant City/New Dorp(built at street level, later sunk).
New and Improved (MOW/Layup)Siding and Switches at Great Kills
Old siding Lumber Yard Eltingville
MOW Siding and Switch over Huguenot
Old removed cuts for At&T (thanks Hank)
Flags stops (and rundown Stations) Richmond Valley, Nassau, Atlantic.
TOTTENVILlE.
Just heard on the radio(NPR)...Amtrak will
commence service December 11th..between Boston
and Washington DC. All told there will be 20
8 car trainsets by the end of 2001.
I know that the subway route symbols were once available and I missed the opportunity to download them at the time, but is there any possibility of anyone sending me a set of those gif's at bsklar@geo.hunter.cuny.edu to use for a possible Subway Series poster?
Thanks,
Bob Sklar
Why bother with those GIFs when you can download a font? Come to my download center. (Click on the picture below.)
If you still want to opt for the GIFs, click here.
The R-62A's on the Pelham Line have the word 'Express' superimposed over the bottom of the green diamond 6 symbol on the rollsigns. Is this wording also found on the R-62/62A and R-68/68A rollsigns for other peak-hour express trains that use a diamond symbol (such as the 5 Bronx Thru-Express, 7 Flushing Express, D Concourse Express, etc.)?
Jim
Two notes:
1. Only the 6-diamond has the"express" wording.
2. The diamond indicates "rush-hours only," not "express." In the days of full Manhattan Bridge service, the N-circle was Broadway express and N-diamond was Broadway local.
The diamond is supposed to mean "rush hours only". But considering the diamond #6-Pelham Exp and the diamond #7-Flushing Exp now run all day, it doesn't always mean it.
What they should do to make it uniform again is change the #7-Flushing Exp to the #11 when they get the R62A's. The #6 out of Pelham Bay Pk should stay the same but use the circle #6 all day and change the #6 out of Parkchester to the #10.
I thought that TA reserved the 8 for that purpose.
They may not use the #8 and just go straight to #10. After all the old Third Av el was the #8. The TA is weird like that. Also you may never see another K train again. Everytime there is a K train it gets discontinued. So you could say that the K stands for Kiss of death.
So if a K/L skip-stop service along the Canarsie line was implemented (there's a gray K on the R110B rollsigns), would that inevitably mean the end of Canarsie-14th St service?
As for skipping the #8, I doubt they'll be able to do that, because the front LED and electronic side signs on the R142/142As can only display single digit numbers. If the #8 was used, nobody would remember that it was once used for the Third Avenue El, because the TA never bothered putting 1967-era signs on IRT cars and El stations. It was also the Astoria line at one point, but not a lot of people remember that.
The K on that R110B was colored grey by accident. I've talked to the L line supt. many times. There are no plans at this time to implement skip-stop service.
Of course anything can happen when CBTC is up and running but I really doubt that skip stop service on a 37 minute line will be implemented. Also remember that CBTC will not be in operation in the very beginning of the project from Bway Jct to Canarsie and the L will be 24 hour OPTO.
On the second one, of course the 8 could be used instead of 10. They are already colored green on the roll signs of the R62A. I was just guessing 10 cause I would like to see double digits for once.
Some have "local" for the circle, many are missing "Express" and just have a diamond (some 62as and all 62s). I think 7 has "express" underneath as well.
* He made a request to me on my e mail etc. Would it be all right if I were to ask you some questions on camera interview etc of yourself at any NYC rail station while you are shooting & or in-between etc....
( you catch my drift ) I answered him, yes I would be glad to help him
I suppose he will question me as to why I came back to nyc & how do I compare the different type of rail transit systems los angeles & nyc..
Of cource I will turn the clock back to the Pacific Electric days of the old los angeles & what a mistake it certanily was to remove such a fine good working system back then & now. Also I will try to help him with whatever type of interview ( rail transit related ) that my limited knowledge can help him with. When you are having a good time as I will be having next week a slight pause in the good cause is no problem & or worry at all !! maybe i can send him some pics of the orange empire museum & the old los angeles rail rolling stock classics
Hope he gets a A+ on his collage video interview exam !!
Besides nobody can be all bad who loves the redbirds !! ( peace )
tis' shaping up to be quite THE documentary.
=c)
Breaking The Barrier Underground.
on my way to amtrak right now !!!!!!
Someone asked for the answer key for the T/O exam well here it is as a PDF, you need Acrobat
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/pdf/ktrainoperator1_2000.pdf
Exam 1/8/00, Protest Review Deadline 1/15/00, Protest Period 2/28/00 - 3/29/00 so you missed it all.
Yesterday on the Queens Blvd. line, on the front/rear rollsign of an R46 R train, I saw a letter "R" in orange.
Were there ever any plans to send the "R" down Sixth Avenue? I would think that would only work if it ran via the Manhattan Bridge, which is not out of the question but certainly unusual.
:)Andrew
There is no orange "R" listed in the normal rollsign.
Either it was a misprint or the sign's yellow "R" started to fade or it got dirty, although it was probably just a misprint.
Well, it couldn't fade between yellow and orange. The yellow circles have black letters (perhaps in order to contrast it with the light colored circle) while all others have white letters/numbers.
Andrew
There are some signs with brown circle Rs (which might be mistaken for orange, it's an odd shade), and one with yellow circle and white letter. All signs have brown diamond Rs.
And how did you get an R (with any color roll sign) at Suphtin Blvd? Was there a GO of some sort in effect?
R trains lay up at D4-Parsons which stretches as far back as south of Van Wyck Blvd.
This train was layed up in position D4-Parsons #5.
The D4 track lay ups, regardless of what the end sign says, becomes an F train the next morning. If the R has a train that has no inspections or bad order cars on it,if possible, they'll sent it to D4 Parsons. The R can afford to do this since they have a.m. crews that report to Jamaica yd. All a.m. crews on the Queens end of the F report at 179st.As a result, F crews would'nt have time to go to the yard to get a train. As you know, the switchperson would do that.
Presumably that was the E tracks the pic was taken on, since 75-footers can't run on the eastern division.
IAE, the brown diamond probably came about back in the days when there were rush hour special Rs up Nassau St to help the clueless realize it wasn't a Broadway/Queens train.
There was a G.O., the E was not running all weekend. Several trains ran with brown diamonds, but most had the usual yellow. Subsequent G.O.s did not have any trains with brown diamonds (this was taken the first weekend ever the R was sent to Jamaica Center, there was no precedent for proper signage).
The yellow with white letter (the old style) is what looks like orange when lit. Since yellow and white blend together so much, they have to add some other color, so they make the yellow reddish (The N's used to be like this when they had the 46's). Nw they've just decided to use a lighter yellow with black letters. They could rather have just used goldwith the white letter (won't be mistaken for orange)
the night before I saw an r train crossing the manhattan bridge.
That can happen if there is a blockage in the Montague St Tunnel. The R will operate via the F line into Queens.
Wasnt the R train suppose to be the original route to run to Jamaica Center,along withe the G doing late nite bids?
Funny, while on the Broadway line recently I saw an "N" R68 layed up on the express with what looked like an orange N.
Probably just discoloration though.
I was wondering if the picture was of an actual r62/62a onthe 7 line or was it just a covered up #4 train?
I have a business trip planned for next Thursday - 10/25. Can anyone help with the amount of time necesary for a Blue line train from the airport to the Monroe stop? Is the Blue line the correct route? Can anyone tell me the frequency of service for trains leaving the airport around 4:30PM towards Monroe?
Note - my destination is the Palmer Hilton near State & Wabash.
Thanks in advance for your help.
The Palmer House is actually on Monroe between State and Wabash. Note that Dearborn St. is parallel to both State St. and Wabash St. so if you get off at Monroe Station you are only 1 block away from it.
The Blue train takes about 45 minutes to go from O'Hare to the Loop (under Dearborn St., not on the actual elevated Loop). A taxi would take just as long if not longer and be 10 to 15 times the price. During rush hour a train runs about every 7 minutes.
Here is the URL for the schedule in PDF format...
http://www.yourcta.com/maps/rail/blue/OHare.pdf
Have fun. It's a toddlin' town.
It takes about 40-45 minutes from O'Hare to the Loop. The trains should run every six minutes at that hour according to the CTA's web site schedule. State and Wabash are parallel to each other and never meet. The Palmer House is between State and Wabash where Monroe Street intersects the two. The closest Blue Line station is the Monroe station. The hotel is two blocks east of the station. Good luck.
Thanks guys. I'm lookiing forward to the trip - and my first ride on the CTA.
You might want to hold your ears while in the Dearborn St. subway. The noise level can be excruciatingly loud.
I was wondering if the Qand M trains that leave brighton beach and bay parkway, since they are coming from the ci yard if they are allowed to have revenue service (ex. the q leavess the yard in the morning and stops at stillwell west 8th and ocean parkway on route to brighton beach.)
If NYCT allowed the conductors to report to the yard with the train operator, then what you described could take place. They save money by having the conductors report at Brighton Beach and Bay Parkway respectively.
In addition to what Mike said, the Q comes over from CI on the N platform and normaly gets an express lineup to Brighton. The M skips Stillwell most of the time I think (not sure) but as Mike says WHO WILL OPEN THE DOORS??
Actually, the M doesn't need to bypass Stillwell to get to Bay Parkway. Couldn't they just use that that connection to the yard north of the Bay 50 Street station?
That's exactly the route that the M takes, via CI yard lead @Bay 50. Although with the GO that they have been having, some M's would leave the yard and operate "light" via the N to 36 St. and go in service there. I don't know if this GO is still working or if it's completed since I try to avoid South Brooklyn at all costs.
It ended on Tuesday.
HMMMmmmmm............
I'm surprized that a yard crew does not bring the train to the station, and that both the T/O and the CR would board from the terminal.
Do the actually work as a crew, or is the CRs assignment to a particular set of equipment (and his match up with the T/O) more of a random sort of thing?
Elias
If yard personel brought a train from the yard to Brighton Beach, how would they get back !!!!
I also believe that a lot of the Q trains are stored on the express tracks from Ocean Parkway to Brighton Beach overnight, anyway.
Nothing is stored overnight between the beach and parkway.
NOPE, not anymore, nothing is stored outside on the Brighton line. They used to but not for years.
For that matter, how does the T/O get back, since I assume that the equipment will stay on the railroad even after his shift is over. Or that some PM T/O will have accepted equipment at CI, and then have to turn it in at the Yard. I assume that some T/Os will drive to work, especially if their job starts in a yard, where there is no subway service.
To tell the truth, I never thought of it, but I always assuemed that either the yard crew brought the train out, or that the whole operating crew went to the yard to get it.
Elias
The T/O would just travel back to the yard on the train riding with the other passengers. For example, if I dropped off the train at Brighton Beach and I finished at Coney Island yard, I would take the D to W8 st and take the F to Ave X. I believe the #7 line has jobs out of Corona yd where both members of the crew prepare the train for service since most trains coming out of there go into service at 111st, especially if it's rush hour.
In order for your first statement to become reality, more yard train operators would have to be hired in addition to the train operator/conductor crews needed for Q service.As a result, this costs more money. A couple of the a.m trains from the yard are brought up to the beach by switchman(person who moves trains around the terminal and yard) from the D line(midnight personnel I believe), another cost saving move.
The Q Trains are bought into Stillwell or Coney Island Yard by the T/O after the Q Line goes out of service. In the morning, the T/O brings the Q Trains from the yard and the C/R joins him for the run(s). During middays, Q Trains are stored on Track 5 and 6 between Brighton Beach and Ocean Parkway or taken back to Stillwell or Coney Island Yard. Lately 1 or 2 Q Trains go OOS at Brighton Beach and is taken to Ocean Parkway. At Ocean Parkway, the train is scrubbed inside out by a cleaning crew there. The rest is history when the PM rush begins. The M Train doesn't have a chance to go into service. After Bay Parkway, it heads onto the express track and goes into Coney Island Yard. When PM rush comes along is runs on that same express track to get to Bay Parkway. Only the T/O is on the train during these moves.
running on...
or
WWW.METS.COM has been 'Subwayized' with official logos.
-Hank
Yup, and each game has a 4 or 7 to denote where it will be played.
In additional Subway Series news, the MTA will be painting subway cars http://www.silive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?o0115_BC_NY--SubwaySeries-MTA&&news&newsflash-newyork-si.
Also, ESPN.COM has borrowed an image from the site for their subway series page http://espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2000/subway/s/subwayindex.html
-Hank
Take a peek...
And look, it says 'Cool!'
-Hank
I guess it really is the premire unofficial site. Congrats to Dave and his gang of contributors, the subway authorities.
While sports and subways don't really mix, having a board for NYC Sports would help alot in terms of waiting for messages to load. I don't mind the posts about service for the subway series but sports talk and announcing the Mets won and you were there isn't really on topic.
Don't read the messages.
I'm a fan of that approach but 10 different threads with every Yankee and Met fan chipping in is a little more than something where you just don't read the messages.
Tough luck, bub. Deal with it for the next week. And get ready for it again near the end of February. This board is very NY-centric, and even if it was only the Mets in the series, there'd still be a lot of talk on this board. Major events such as this penetrate all bulliten boards and newsgroups. I bet you can check one of the porn picture newsgroups and find a Let's Go Mets!
-Hank
>>>...And get ready for it again near the end of February. <<<
Oh, please enlighten the non-jock heads amongst us...what, pray tell, happens at the end of February? Thank You.
Peace,
ANDEE
The start of Spring Training.
The peanut gallery has been heard from. Or is is the thought police? Listen in ten days all this will be over and done with. Until then, let's have fun with this. It is great for New York City and great for the whole country---if you want my opinion. Even if you don't, you;re getting it anyway.
I totally agree.
Peace,
ANDEE
I remember reading something in the New York Dailey News in the summer of 1999 that tried to compare Yankee and Mets fans, and where both teams had their strength of support. I can't remember exactly but I got the impression that the Yankees had more support in all the boroughs but Brooklyn, that borough being the only Mets stronghold besides Long Island. Has there been a survey to find out which team is stronger where? I know the Bronx is Yankee territory, but it would seem Queens would be Mets country. Maybe yes, maybe no.
It is. The way I've seen it, Manhattan and The Bronx is Yankee territory and Brooklyn and Queens is Met country. It's Staten Island where you might not have a clue although they may have more Yankee fans sprouting up due to the new minor league team out in SI.
Yet another off-topic thread...
David
Here we go again with the thought police. Listen, in 10 days all this will be over, but there is interest in the Subway Series and most of us are enthused over the prospect. Patience! This thread will end soon.
In 10 days the World Series will all be over, but the postings will not.
I am not the thought police, and I resent the label. There are no thought police on this site, or on any other I've seen. Nobody's saying that people shouldn't think about baseball or talk about baseball. But it is abundantly clear that this is a rail transportation site, not a baseball site. Do us all a favor, and take it somewhere else -- someplace where it's appropriate.
David
He calls anyone who doesen't think like him the thought police.
Peace,
ANDEE
Enjoy the World Series Andee. And if you need any questions answered about how baseball is played, I'm sure many of us on this site will be glad to answer them for you.
Peace
Sea Beach Fred
And rail transportation gets you to the game so it is germaine. Sit back and enjoy the Series and don;t get too worked up over the rest of us having our jollies over this.
I remember reading something in the New York Dailey News in the summer of 1999 that tried to compare Yankee and Mets fans, and where both teams had their strength of support. I can't remember exactly but I got the impression that the Yankees had more support in all the boroughs but Brooklyn, that borough being the only Mets stronghold besides Long Island. Has there been a survey to find out which team is stronger where? I know the Bronx is Yankee territory, but it would seem Queens would be Mets country. Maybe yes, maybe no.
It's been said that the Yankees are the favorite among suburbanites, while city residents prefer the Mets. In addition, to some extent, the Yankees are the "upscale" favorites while the Mets are the workingman's team.
The Times reports the opposite. That the average stadium visiting Mets fan is more upscale than a Yankee fan.
It also did mention what you said as popular perception.
i dont know what your talking about, i live in brooklyn and everybody i know likes the yankees. mostly queens people like the mets and everyone else likes the yankees (im talkin about manhattan, brooklyn and the bronx, staten island dont count)
I know that there is a movie section on SubTalk where every film that has a brief shot of a subway train is listed, but I was wondering about those movies whose entire plot revolves around trains or subways. Here are my top 5 picks because I can only think of 5.
#1 The Train (1964) Staring Burt Lancaster
#2 Emporer of the North (1973) Staring Lee Marvin and Ernest Borgnine
#3 The Taking of Pellham 1-2-3 (1947) Staring: Walter Matthau and Robert Shaw
#4 Doctor Zhivago (1965) Staring: Omar Sharif
#5 The Dark of the Sun (1968) Staring: Rod Taylor
Those are the only 5 movies a railfan could enjoy simply for the trains.
Wasnt' there a couple of real bad action films that took place on (freight) trains? Then there is Murder on the Orient Express.
It Happened One Night supposedly glamorized bus travel.
Not too many Trolley movies.
"Not too many Trolley movies"
The 1986 Australian film "Malcolm", which is included in most film guides, was the story of a "slow learner"/mechanical genius who worked for the Melbourne tramways system (The "Met") and who uses his knowledge of the system to help plan a robbery. The film, as I recall, has lots of footage of Met cars, and Malcolm's house featured an elaborate model tramway/trolley system.
What about /Silver Streak/ -- not the 1976 Gene Wilder vehicle, but the 1934 B-movie of the same name starring Burlington's /Pioneer Zephyr/?
And /Twentieth Century/, of course, with its faithfully-reproduced heavyweight Pullman interiors.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Yeah, and he TOTALLY left out MONEY TRAIN.
Geez...
And the as yet unreleased "The Yards" might have to make it to this list as well.
BMTman
I never saw Money Train, I was hoping people like you would submit their own list.
One 'train movie' that I'd add to the list is "Runaway Train" with Jon Voight and Eric Roberts. Story revolves around two fugitives and a train crewmember who get stuck on a runaway freight train in Alaska. Highly entertaining, and seems relatively realistic (for Hollywood, anyways).
Jim (RailBus)
I saw that movie too, but had forgotten the painfully obvious name.
>>> movies whose entire plot revolves around trains <<<
Mike;
You missed a lot of the movie if you think the entire plot of "Doctor Zhivago" revolved around trains. Although David Lean used trains in many of his films [Lawrence of Arabia (1962), The Bridge on the River Kwai (1957), Summertime (1955), Brief Encounter (1946)], the plot did not always revolve around them.
The following five films should be added to your list:
The Incident (1967)
Murder on the Orient Express (1974)
The General (1927)
Von Ryan's Express (1965)
Closely Watched Trains [Ostre sledované vlaky] (1966)
Tom
Thank you, I forgot about Von Ryan's Express (1965). I saw that and it was great. I'd put it at #4 on my list.
The General (1927)
I second the motion. Definitely in the top 10. It's in my top 5.
now thats a greta railfan movie(and a great movie in general). i believe its a little inaccurate because they take the B to union square and transfer to the uptown 4. there are lots of great shots inside trains and they seem to be real to me and not one abandoned station changed to look like different stations over and over.
later,
tim
A few points about The Warriors:
R-27/30s are used exclusively (except for a brief shot of a D train of R-42s entering Stillwell Ave. late at night at the very beginning of the movie) even though the IRT is implied on part of their journey.
The train markings are all over the map.
Hoyt-Schermerhorn was disguised as 96th St.
Oh and BTW, Nolan Ryan's fastball was known as Ryan's Express. Bob Murphy referred to it as such even when Nolan was with the Mets.
Did you know The Exorcist has a brief subway scene? It takes place at 34th St.-Penn Station on the 7th Ave. line and shows an express train pulling out. I remember seeing at least one R-17. The cars are all wearing silver and blue and are spotlessly clean with no graffiti.
Did you know The Exorcist has a brief subway scene? It takes place at 34th St.-Penn Station on the 7th Ave. line and shows an express train pulling out. I remember seeing at least one R-17. The cars are all wearing silver and blue and are spotlessly clean with no graffiti.
After having read the book, I was anticipating a scene showing their trip to Washington behind a GG1, but I was disappointed. That was the book/movie that taught me that movies are better if you haven't read the book first.
Don't forget "Broadway Limited", which although a "B" movie has some great scenes of the streamlined K4s, D16sb and, of course GG-1's under wire. Also, Hitchcock's "Strangers on a Train" has a train ride at the center of the plot!
The problem with most train set movies like that are they focus too much on the inside of the train instead of locomotives and operations. I just remembered another one BTW: Under Siege 2, Dark Territory. Exelent railfan film.
I would include 1984's "Streets Of Fire" as a good railfan movie,
since there are a lot of scenes with Chicago's "L", including one
or two scenes on board an "L"/subway train. So far, Streets Of Fire
is my favorite movie, since it has a lot of "L" scenes. My second
favorite is "The French Connection", with the West End Line (B train)
El.
10/19/2000
Rode the subways today and here are some observations.
1) R-68A #5117.....One side sign box missing, full glass in its place. Why are these sign boxes disappearing on the R-68's ? Also noticed linoleum floor in this car and her mates in this 4 car lashup had WAXED floors. Nope, the floors weren't wet either.
2) New Metrocards out.....Appearing in some MVM's sponsered by Modells. Two NY Giants (football) players Michael Strayhan & Jason Sehorn. And two NY Jet players, Wayne Chrebet & Kevin Mawake (sp?).
3) Witnessed a turnstile jumper, or rather some who squated under turnstile to evade fare. This happened at 74th & Broadway (E)(F)(G)(R). Policeman caught the dummy who obviously didn't check the area first, there were three other officers in the area too. Darwin award winner ?
That's all folks !
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS !
Also, 5181 has a side sign box missing.
5168 too
Darwin award winners have to die or become sterile.
You're absolutely correct. Instead of a Darwin Award, that guy should be awarded a Ding-a-ling or Dumbest Criminal award or something along those lines.
5116 is also missing a window. Look here.
I just the R142 train being tested on the Livonia el a few minutes ago. Couldnt tell if it was the 6300's or the 7200's.
4Train#1391Mike
May have been the R-142A. I didn't see the 142 set yesterday, and the cars I saw heading north were 7221-30, with signage for the "5, LEXINGTON AV EXPRESS, TO EASTCHESTER-DYRE". A Kawasaki train on the 5? Say it ain't so!
-Stef
Well the train that I saw did not have the LED lights on. Just the interior lights was on.
4Train#1416Mike
Why are people complaining that the 142's front destinations signs only display in red? The R32 and R38 have yellow flip dots, they don't change color, but no one has complained about that.
>>>The R32 and R38 have yellow flip dots, they don't change color, but no one has complained about that. <<<
Then you haven't been reading this board very closely. That complaint is almost as big a topic as the m-Bridge routings.
Peace,
ANDEE
...And I'd take either one over the black-on-puke-yellow, impossible-to-read digital side signs of the R44/R46.
Andrew
Probably because everyone knows bicolor LEDs have been around for a long time. Actually I'd like to know the official reasoning behind that decision.
Arti
Bi-Colored LEDs cost about 20X as much as red ones, harder to wire and not as bright.
All three statements very untrue. They're just as easy to wire (although they're soldered to a PC board) they're just as cheap, and the brightness depends completely upon the resistance and the voltage they are designed for.
-Hank
There's no such thing as a bi-color LED. It's two LED
substrates mounted in a common package. While red and green
would have been sufficient for all of the mainline IRT routes,
displaying the purple of the #7 route would require some blue.
With regard to blue LED's, the previous poster's statements are
2/3 correct: they are dimmer and they are more expensive.
If my opinion had been asked (not that there is any reason to
expect that it would have), I would have recommended taking another
stab at motorized roller curtain signs with electronic control.
Red is close enough to purple to not have to bother adding blue for just this one line they nay not even run on. (Blue has been made bright, though).
I always questioned the single color, but it seems to be almost orange, and is brighter than the red of the 110A sign, and I guess this is what they deem bright enough (like the amber used on road signs and test bus signs) for a stand alone outdoor LED route sign. Perhaps it is too difficult or costly to mix this type of red with green.
I just went across the Throgs Neck Bridge and there are LED signs that are full color. I saw white, green, purple, orange, and red to name a few colors. It can be done.
What did you see this on on the bridge?
I know it can be done (I see all the signs in Times Sq.) but will the TA be willing to pay for it? (I hope so on the R-143's)
Are those LEDs or incandescent bulbs?
LEDs. Definitely LEDs. The overhead signs would be way too big if it were incandescent bulbs.
I believe it's a passive-matrix backlit LCD, similar to a laptop screen, but with larger (and thus cheaper) pixels.
-Hank
>>>If my opinion had been asked (not that there is any reason to
expect that it would have), I would have recommended taking another
stab at motorized roller curtain signs with electronic control. <<<
I agree with this statment totally, IMO, it seems that the TA is engageing in a "technology for technolgies sake" type of thing.
Peace,
ANDEE
The stuff they tried on the R-46 was first-generation, using
discrete logic gates, fairly crude. On the R142, there are
uProcessors everywhere. You could make a roller curtain very
reliable, plus if it fails you have the diagnostics network
which can report the exact sign that is failing.
[There's no such thing as a bi-color LED. ]
They are marketed as such. It's a "black box". If you design something you don't really care how was it made, you care about the specs and price.
Arti
It only becomes a black box after one accidentally tries to
illuminate it from the 600 :)
You can't read the R32/R38 sign anyway. Also, the A, C, and E are all blue so it wouldn't do much good there. The R142 and R142A will run on the 2, 3, 5, and 6. The 2 and 3 share trackage with the 4 in Brooklyn and the 2 and 5 share trackage in the Bronx. While I hardly ever go into the Bronx or Brooklyn, when I do and if I am waiting for the 5, if the sign reads (5) and I am looking into the tunnel, I will probably consider it to be a 2.
i know it is stupid. they should get over complaining. as long as the map does the coloring then it is fine with me. besides the interior LED does the part of coloring. they shouldn't complain at all.
Just in case you missed it buried in other posts, the BHRA just obtained its franchise to build and operate trolleys on the streets of Brooklyn. Many said it couldn't be done, but like the little engine that could, we just kept at it.
Stay tuned.
Does the franchise cover a particular route or routes or is it permission to put tracks anywhere the company wants to go?
The franchise has the intial Red Hook street routes written in. However, we are allowed to submit for route additions pending NYDOT approval.
Downtown here we come!
Jan, are you guys (Brooklyn Historic Railway Assoc., et al) included in the plans for the Brooklyn Bridge Waterfront Park Development plans? I thought there was (is) a provision, because some of the old New York Dock Railway tracks are still visible near Fulton Ferry Landing.
BMTman
That is an interesting question. One of our visions is to run all the way to the Brooklyn Bridge.
Most of the Jay St. Connecting RR tracks are still there, but are in pretty bad shape.
Very early in the life of the BHRA, Oslo #3 ran on the Main St. tracks with a long jumper cable.
The current set of park planners dont seem very serious about providing public transportation to their park. They only ever talk about possibly running an hourly jitney service. As you know, a jitney only holds a handful of passengers.
They may as well try and get some dollar van guy to do it !
Just for the Subtalk record, I have tried to reach out to the park planners, but it seems there is no one in charge of transportation planning in that group, which I think is a big mistake on their part.
In fact, the site is mostly going to be used as a hotel facility and parking field, not really as a park.
>>> They only ever talk about possibly running an hourly jitney service. ... They may as well try and get some dollar van guy to do it! <<<
The dollar van guys are jitney operators.
Tom
could always take over the slow beach and run trolleys there, may be a improvement on service
Bravo! At last a return of streetcars to Brooklyn. Can't wait to ride 'em.
Out of curiousity, have you guys down at the BHRA ever considered having an open house for Subtalkers?
It would make a nice change from the usual political meluie (no, I cant spell that word).
Let me know (email)if enough Subtalkers are interested.
Well, I certainly want to come down. If you pick a date, and schedule it here, then we will come.
I have one more semi-unpleasant task left, I'll be back with some possible dates when its done (hopefully soon).
Just remember this: If you schedule it, they will come.
Oh my!
I have been wondering how and where Amtrak turns its trains at the following locations: New Haven, Harrisburg, Springfield, 30th St. Airport
F40's and P40 are all unidirectional, but I always see them leading trains on Keystone and Inland route and Silver Service trains. Where and how and when do they turn them. Don't tell me there's a wye, tell me where there is a wye and what the proceedure is for turning.
Currently Amtrak is power changing its Silver Service trains at 30th St. Airport. Will they move the change back to DC? Amtrak has been expanding recently and locomotives must be getting kinda of scarse. Especially with the HHP-8's for the long haul trains won't Amtrak want hi speed running all the way to DC. Does Amtrak power change its VA bound NE Direct trains at DC or 30th St.?
Next, will there still be a place for the E-60's? Extra AEM's will be moving onto the Keystone route and with all the other service increases will a few old timers be worth keeping around? Would MARC or SEPTA want them?
I know there is a Loop at New Haven, it runs right near a Residence Marriot and there is a loop at Sunnyside where they loop entire corridor trains instead of just the engine.
Not all Silver Service trains change engines in Philadelphia. The Meteor still changes in DC.
-Hank
What is the motivation of a Philly change? Slower service? Less Power? If the problem is with the layout at DC I'm sure Amtrak could do something to install some extra crossovers to get the different locomotives in and out fast on the tunnel tracks.
The problem is a shortage of electric locomotives.
-Hank
I've also read that the lack of space for changing in DC is an issue. I think there are only two platforms that feed the tunnel to the south,used by all southbound amtrak and VRE trains too. So for a lot of the day there is not enough time down there to switch the engines.
There are at least 3 platforms, because there are 6 tracks into the tunnel.
-Hank
But only 2 tubes exit on the other side of capitol hill. Where is the 6->2 interlocking. It there a section of cut and cover under the station proper before the tracks go into the tunnels? Depending on the legnth of this section and the layout power changes could be easily accomplished. If they are time consuming now they could install tail tracks at the end of 4 of the 6 tracks in which lite engines could lay over.
Yes. Just like New York Penn, where 16 tracks go into 2. The station throat makes liberal use of double-slip switches.
-Hank
There are definitely only 2 tracks in the tunnel, and the platforms extend to right up before the tunnel. I could be wrong, but I don't think there are 6 tracks that serve platforms (at least platforms in public use) that can access the tunnel.
I tried to resolve this with real evidence and did not get very far. Heres a terraserver image:
http://www.terraserver.com/image.asp?S=10&T=101&X=1630&Y=21537&Z=18&W=2
Unfortunately the mouth of the tunnel is covered, so we can't see. But it took me a long time to get that link so you all should go look at it anyways.
Here's a map which is also not useful. If it went a little further it would do the trick...
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_wut_k.gif
I got so curious I emailed someone about this. We'll see if he knows.
The diagram on page 91 of the November Trains magazine shows (eight) tracks 23 through 30 entering the tunnel, but only (four) 25 through 28 served by platforms.
Great to see Amtrak was smart enough to buy enough electrics....
A good chunk of service still changes at New Haven.
Anyone know of any other RR stupid enough to spend XYZ million on electrifiying, and not buy enough locomotives to cover it?
Is it any wonder Amtrak is in the mess they're in now?
Is it any wonder Amtrak is in the mess they're in now?
Amtrak has been fighting (politically) for its survival ever since the administration of 1981-1989 tried to kill it, and Congress (in spite of grudgingly appropriating capital funding every year) insists Amtrak be financially self sufficient (like interstate highways and river barges and airports) as of a constantly moving deadline. Long-term planning for Amtrak has meant anything beyond 6 months.
At Harrisburg, Amtrak lays up diesel locos on a station track which is not used for revenue service (the former track 7 or 8; only track B1 Philly-bound and B2 Pittsburgh-bound are used for boarding and passenger discharge -- these used to be tracks 5 and 6, I believe). Anyway, from what I can tell, the westbound loco is detached, and one of the layed-up locos switches over to track B1, backs up, and attaches to the other end for the return trip to Philadelphia. On the rare occasions I have had the pleasure of enjoying an AEM7 between 30th Street and Harrisburg, I have watched the whole loco plus 3-car consist, from which I just disembarked, be backed-up onto the Cumberland Valley RR Bridge, which Amtrak owns, and which is tracked only part-way out onto the Susquehanna River, and then moved forward off the bridge on what must be a wye for a deadhead return trip to Philly (I must have been on the last train that day, and at that time, it was pre-HHP locos, and Amtrak needed all of its electrics on the NEC by the next morning). I assume that's how the layed-up deisels are turned as well, before being backed-up to either wait on that non-reveunue track or attach to the 3 waiting Amfleet coaches for Philly-bound service. The intervals between departures and arrivals are probably long enough that the same loco could be used again for the return trip. Once Keystone service gets its electrics, it's likely we'll see cab-cars on the route eliminating the use of this wye.
As a side note, every fourth-of-July and Labor Day, Harrisburg has a rather nice fireworks display over the Susquehanna. I have heard tales of Amtrak employees backing equipment onto the bridge in order to watch the show. God willing, someday there will be either light rail or commuter service from Carlisle on that bridge.
There is more of a need for cab cars with diesels because the electrics are bi-directional, then can just run around the train. If keystone trains come to Suburban station, that's when you'll see cab cars.
Well I did happen to take the 5:30pm Tottenville bound express today and met up with a few of the Subtalkers. The express was fast, we got up to 48mph on the express section.
I stayed on the train after Eltingville and Tottenville was beautiful in the sunset.
There are stretches south of Eltingville that are somewhat fast. It is a very scenic railway, and with the R44OH trains sometimes you feel like you're on the LIRR.
Going back, the 6:15pm train left Tottenville a few minutes late but the T/O we had was pretty fast (the same guy as the express).
I notice when they change ends at Tottenville as soon as the T/O entered the cab the train started, there was no extra time for brake charge.
Well the train arrived at the ferry at 6:58pm, just two minutes to catch the ferry. Well getting into the terminal I had to swipe my card several times, delaying me then a ran for the ferry and just made it.
Nice view of the NYC skyline at night.
Also what is that track that branches off (I think it's after Pleasant Plains) into the fields?
You fence sitters missed another GREAT trip !
For four of us (Lou from Brooklyn, Choo Choo Bob, Peggy & I) it was a very nice Red Bird trip from the Flushing line to Times Sq., then we waited for a #2 Red Bird which took us to Chambers. There we transfered to a R-62A, Bombardiar to South Ferry.
Just before 5 the BMTman joined us. We stayed on the stern of the upper deck to watch lower Manhattan's skyline recede before us. At SI we rushed to make the 5:30 express where John anounced himself as we boarded.
Lou pointed out the sights along the way to Eltingville (MOW yard, O/H & storage yard, freight sidings, etc.). John stayed on the express while the rest of us did Burger King where the BMTman had some photos to show & some MetroCards to swap. We got back on at dusk and rode to the end of the line, Tottenville. You wouldn't believe this was a subway station if someone brought you there blindfolded. We walked around, saw the old ferry slips, Arthur Kill & Outerbridge all lighted up.
We made a direct run back to St. George. As we arrived Lou pointed out the "Y" that actually doesn't belong to the TA. Within a few minutes it was time to board another ferry. Our luck was still holding up just fine as the night was clear and the Manhattan skyline was all lit up in a grand stile from our Bow vantage point. There was a criuse ship about to leave and to our surprise they were giving her a fireworks send off. WOW it was great.
At South Ferry we went our seperate ways, except Lou who went with me as far as Atalantic Ave. We caught the N/R & I got to see the pockets that many think are the tunnels to SI. At Atlantic Ave a Money train came by just as I entered the LIRR. At Jamaica a large NY & Atl freight came by with a couple of old LIRR switchers pulling it as I waited for my final train.
All in all it was a very pleasent way to spend a evening with some SubTalking friends.
Mr t__:^)
You fence sitters missed another GREAT trip!
Definitely! A great time was had by all. Lou from Brooklyn was a most knowlegeable SIR tour host since he grew up on SIRT.
I'm glad I met John; now I can put a face to his shopping mall, bus, train and subway posts.
Going our separate ways from the Ferry, Doug and I were so caught up in conversation that we almost neglected leave our 9 train at Chambers, where he went for the A train to Brooklyn and I took the 3 to Penn Station.
Bob
Sounds like a great time was had by all; the weather certainly cooperated! What kept me from going was that it was a 'school night' and I would've gotten home too late and overstimulated to get to bed at a decent hour. Hopefully there'll be a sequel on a Friday and/or in the spring, with a later sunset.
Certainly sounds like it was a great time; I don't get out of work until 5:15 and didn't make the 5:30 boat. This definitely should happen again in the spring. Did anyone get some pictures?
We'll do it in the Spring with more light and make better use of the Rush Hour train schedule so we can look at more station stops. Thurston and subwaybuff got some pictures even of the fire works.
BMTMan talked to a T/O about the new singling system they are working on and I talked to a C/R that had come over from MetroNorth.
All in all a great trip.
I took a nap after school, figuring I had time to get the boat. Woke up at about 5:30, missed (yet again) another field trip.
We noted your absence with disappointment.
I was going to come - I even had an early job. But I was offered an extra trip on the 1 and needed the money. So I was at South Ferry at 4:32 waiting to head back to the Bronx.
We were upstairs on the street at 4:32 waiting for Doug and 5 o'clock.
If you saw some railfans taking pictures in the station at that time that was us, sorry you missed the trip.
Mr t__:^)
Who's going to the open house tomorrow? It's supposed to be a sunny, warm day. I figure I'll get there around 11 or so, and later head for Bear Mountain and/or West Point; both are just fifteen-twenty minutes away from Croton.
I gather parking at the station is free, as it is at most MN stations on weekends.
Look forward to seeing some of The Gang.
I will be there at 10. Parking & shuttle bus are free.
Why does it seem that most railroads like SIR and PATH take so much shorter to charge their brakes then the subways? Does it have to do with the equipment?
Unlike most brake functions, which are initiated both directly and electrically, the process of charging after an emergency application is accomplished only by a supply of air from the first car. Getting 8 or 10 emergency valves to set up can take some time. Path & SIR run shorter trains, thus the recharge time is faster. Usually the process is accomplished while sitting in a terminal so there is no time lost vs the schedule. Of course a situation where the train is tripped or dumped is a different story!
Speaking of turning around in a terminal, is there any reason that Ridge Spur trains turning around at 8th and Market need operators to close the doors while in the station from the cab that will be the back cab and reopen them from the cab that will be the front cab? Why does this not happen on the Market Frankford Line or PATCO (I don't remember it happening with Budd cars, but I may be wrong.)
It's probably because the Broad Street trains are not equipped with a shuttle switch. When the shuttle switch button is pressed, the doors stay open while the T/O changes ends. Otherwise, the T/O has to close the doors to "dezone" the position.
In the TA, the G and Rock Pk Shuttle do not have shuttle switches for OPTO service while the Franklin Shuttle and some B's have them.
In Boston guards(conductors) often change cabs at terminals and have to shut the doors to do so. The operating cab does not have to be active at this point. Blue Line (OPTO) operators do have to set up doors when changing ends, but this is only done at Wonderland at a tail track platform so it never is observed by the public. The other end has a loop at Bowdoin so there is no end change.
There appears to be errors on the roster concerning the number of cars assosiated with each model
Example 1 - M-2 car numbers 8400-8471 has 261 in service (there is a max of 72 due to the number range).
Example 2 - M-4 a huge number of car numbers assigned but the roster states that only 38 are in service.
Example 3 - M-6 has car numbers 9000-9047 (Only 48 car numbers, but they are 3 car units ie: 9000-9051-9001, 9002-9053-9003, etc which translates into over 70 cars.
Thanks. Right now we don't have anyone paying any attention to the commuter rail section.
However this is going to change. What you might see soon is a "commuter.nycsubway.org" managed by someone else other than me..
-Dave
I agree with you 100% about the roster errors. I've read other literary sources about the Metro-North and the car assignment numbers and quantity of each, coincide with each other.
I e-mailed Dave about the LIRR errors (rather a lack of updating), never got a response. Must've gotten lost in the mail.
I have been doing some research on rail service in the Schuykill Valley (or lack of it) and I wanted to propose a few solutions for the experts here to analyze:
1) Commuter rail between Harrisburg and Philadelphia via Reading
2) Intercity rail between Harrisburg or Pittsburgh to Philadelphia via Reading
3) Intercity rail between Harrisburg or Pittsburgh to New York Penn Station via Philadelphia and Reading
4) Intercity rail between Harrisburg or Pittsburgh and Hoboken via Reading and West Trenton
I am leaning towards the last option because I may not need to deal with Amtrak other than at Newark Penn Station, which can make the situation somewhat less complex. However, Amtrak may not mind a private carrier operating nonstop between 30 Street and New York Penn Station during off-peak hours. I am thinking that 3-5 daily trips would be a good start.
Opinions please.
Simple answer: Not going to happen.
Reason: The NS Harrisburg Line is Jammed Packed to capasity. We are talking 50-60 through freights a day. Currently the line is only operating on Rule 251, but them plan to upgrade it this summer to Rule 261 CTC, but even with that you have the new Rutherford Intermodal facility to contend with. You have to remember that that is the main NS route from NYC to the west and the mins NS route South to the rest of the NS system (via the Lurgan Branch and Haggarstown Line). You MIGHT see service on the line if you could install a 3rd track from Harrisburg to Reading and a 3rd or 4th Track on protions of the Reading Philly leg. I could see NYC-Harrisburg via Allentown service if you double tracked the Lehigh Line or re-activated the CNJ main.
Commuter rail - but with cushy seats, not this orange plastic stuff
Resumption of West Trenton to Newark service is currently under consideration (NIMBYs are screaming; they don't want the historical station locations in their towns to be used because of riffraff traffic). Dealing with Amtrak at Newark wouldn't be a problem because NJT would be running the service and they already run from Newark to Hoboken and New York.
Over the past few years, I've consistently posted (in response to complaints by others) that subway service was excellent, and that those who though otherwise were not around in the early to mid-1980s.
However, the lousy commutes are beginning to pile up, and I have to say that things really are going downhill. This past week, I've had a big delay due to a A with door problems (I guess it's the R44s as well as the R46s), and a couple of long waits for an F followed by a battery run on the local track (the express tracks are not available due to construction). This follows all the times I was F'ed due to door problems in the prior two weeks. For the past decade, I had been used to one problem every month or so. This is getting beyond chance.
BTW, the Battery run method of going express has one virtue - the F express stops at 4th Avenue, allowing a transfer to the M/R. It sort of makes up for the fact that the express stop is at 7th Avenue rather than 4th Avenue, presumably another bad decision motivated by IND/BMT competition (then again 9th Street is a local stop too).
We need to remember one fact The IND was built to compete against the BMT. Mayor HYlan did not want to make life easy for people he wanted to put out of business.
The Concourse line was intended to put the Jerome IRT out of business. The Fulton IND did kill the BMT FUlton El (and he did take over the Liberty Ave El). If the IND II had been built the J line, 6 line, 2/5 in the Bronx were to have been taken over or removed.
all of which says nothing about deteriorating service, delays, or door failures
Even the IND is showing age. The tracks need repairs. Trauins break down! the newest cars are from before 1994.
Many people do not keep an automobile more the 5 years mych less almost 40 like the redbirds.
If you qwere to neglect your home for 10 years then you too would have catch up to do. We can not close the subway to make neede repairs/renovations. The G.O.s are the least of the evils.
Door problems: each door set opens and closes frequently each day. People holding doors can knock them out of line amd even damage door motors and moving parts.
I remember as if it were yesterday (back in the forties) when the IND seemed like the deluxe version of all the divisions. After riding mostly the 3d Ave. EL cars, it was a real treat to ride the IND
>>>Many people do not keep an automobile more the 5 years mych less almost 40 like the redbirds. <<<
What kind statement is that! You cannot compare the longevity of a subwaycar to that of an automobile!
Peace,
ANDEE
Trains last longer than buses too! I'd like to see a bus that is still in revenue service after 40 years!!
(Even the IND is showing age. The tracks need repairs. Trauins break down! Door problems: each door set opens and closes frequently each day. People holding doors can knock them out of line amd even damage door motors and moving parts.)
All this is true. And, and Traindude said, school opened in September. But school opens every September. And I am not comparing recent events with unattainable perfection. I am comparing it with actual subway service a few years ago. Something seems to be changing.
There is alot of door holding on the IND lines, especially the E and the F. Door holding is a safety violation, delays commuters, and should be considered a felony. It also damages equipment.
It's time to arrest all door holders and treat them just like vandals, and punish the #^$&%$^& out of them! You'll see door holding cease immediately and equipment reliability increase.
While we're at it, why don't we introduce the death penalty to people who park at expired parking meters.
While we're at it, why don't we introduce the death penalty to people who park at expired parking meters.
Good idea. Then both the meter and the driver will be expired.
Putting spikes on the door endge would help too, but that wouldn't happen... would it?
When headways are frequent, C/Rs should simply refuse to reopen the door. The people already on the train would motivate the person responsible for the blockage to move (wether the person responsible is on or off the train, wether its an arm, a bag, or half their body).
I'm told that some transit systems use a setup where only the door(s) being held reopen, while other doors that have fully closed don't move. That would stop the problem of people wedging themselves into other doors while the C/R is trying to close up.
People could also make an attempt at understanding the meaning of NEXT TRAIN (it isn't THAT hard, is it? It must be since no one understands it).
To add something, I don't think the IND was built as well as the IRT and BMT. There are many, many more water leaks in the IND than IRT and BMT. The under-river tubes that are in the best shape (few leaks) are the IRT and BMT ones. The 53rd and 63rd street tube is the most leaky ones I've ever seen, there water all under the track bed.
The IND seems to have the most G.O.'s and track work. It's a shame because I like the IND design the most, because it is wider and more spacious. Unfortunately, it may not have been built as well.
>>> There are many, many more water leaks in the IND than IRT and BMT. The under-river tubes that are in the best shape (few leaks) are the IRT and BMT ones. <<<
On a TV documentary about the "Chunnel" it was stated that modern tunneling theory allows for leakage of water into the tunnel (and removal of that water) rather than 100% sealing of all water out of the tunnel. I do not know how far back that "modern" theory goes, but it could explain more water in IND tunnels than IRT or BMT tunnels.
Tom
I'm going to Georgia next week to see my son graduate from basic training at Ft.Benning,how far does marta go from Atlanta? as i'll be landing at Montgomery Alabama also i have a Sony cam corder with digital snap shot features does matra have a subway ? as i have 0 lux mode. thanks.
MARTA does have a subway. As to how far away from the city it goes, I can not tell you that.
Click here for sneak preview. I got 22 pictures of MARTA on my website (http://www.geocities.com/otpmartapics/martahome.htm).
The system serves Fulton And DeKalb Countiues in Georgia. It servwes Hartsfield Airport in Atlanta. their website is www.itsmarta.com
Not only does MARTA have a subway, it is the subway. The mostly serves the inside of the perimeter (I-285). I don't know where Ft. Benning is, but my guess it is nowhere near Atlanta. Since the only way to get to Atlanta from Montgomery is by car, if you want to ride MARTA, park at one of the outer stations and ride around.
Ft Benning is located within Columbus Ga.south to be exact,does columbus have any rail transit ?
Absolutely not. It barely has bus tranportation. Also, you will be quite a ways from Atlanta.
Columbus is on the border between Georgia and Alabama. I guess that explains wny you'll be arriving in Montgomery. I never been to Columbus, but I know they don't have rail transit. Going to Atlanta would be a whole other trip in itself. I don't know if you would have time for that.
Thanks guys.....it will be an adventure thats for sure,and seeing our son after 12 weeks will be worth it,thanks again.
Before tokens disappear completely, I must unequivocally state the following: I hate the MetroCard!
Why? Glad you asked.
It carries several drawbacks, and confers no advantages over the token system it is replacing.
First of all, the MetroCard is too light. The card needs to be kept handy, so it really cannot practically be kept in your wallet, where cards would normally go. Because it is flimsy, it certainly can't be kept in a pants pocket alongside change or small bills.
So, basically, this leaves a shirt pocket. Keeping the card there, however, makes it EXTREMELY easy to lose while one is removing and inserting other objects that are also very likely to be kept in a shirt pocket (e.g.: pens, eyeglasses, tissues, dollar bills, etc.).
(I lost a MetroCard today in this manner, the second time this has happened to me. Would have been the third time, but one time I saw the card fall to the floor as I took out a dollar to buy a soda. I had about $20 on that damn thing today, as I did on the first card I lost.)
Tokens, on the other hand, are handy and durable. They can be kept anywhere, and are virtually impossible to damage. As an added advantage, they once also functioned as our own New York City currency, with many stores freely accepting them alongside regular money for payment (at least until fares rose above $1.00, and the theiving merchants began giving only $1.00 value on a $1.10 or $1.25 token).
The use of tokens also guaranteed the continued existence of one basic, fundamental characteristic of the subway -- the same fare for any ride, no matter the distance (notwithstanding the double fare that was at one time charged for Rockaway service) or the time of day. Even though there is no variable pricing right now, the MetroCard technology (including the potential future addition of exit swipe readers) renders the imposition of this sort of outer-borough tax well within the range of possibility.
All arguments asserting the "advantages" of the MetroCard over the tokens are bogus, and can easily be demolished.
For example, some would have you believe that the MetroCard has the "advantage" of allowing for free transfers where none existed before. Nonsense. Transferablity among the buses and subways (or lack thereof) is 100% an adminitrative decision, and the bus-to-train or train-to-bus transfers which we now have (as well as the train-to-train transfers which we have never had but should have) could have easily been accomplished using tokens and paper transfers, as bus-to-bus transfers had always previously been handled.
MetroCard apologists also claim that using the card gives the rider the "advantage" of getting an extra ride for every 10-ride purchase. Please. As though tokens couldn't be sold in this manner, giving 11 tokens (or 12, or 13...) for the price of 10.
Additionally, from a wider socio-political perspective, the whole MetroCard technology -- including the presence of those vending monstrosities -- is a nightmare, destroying good jobs and enabling nefarious police practices such as the tracking of individuals.
Finally, the whole MetroCard system is a massive ripoff of the public sector. It is maintained by one private corporation -- Cubic -- whose own repair people (and not NYCT's) must be called to fix everything that goes wrong. The Village Voice reported a few weeks ago that NYCT has paid Cubic over $390 million since 1991, when they got the contract. There is the unmistakable stench of corruption (albeit corruption protected by law) in all of this, in that the NYCT official who oversaw the awarding of this plum to Cubic is now gainfully employed by that company. (For more on this outrageous giveaway, see the Voice article, written by Andrew Friedman.)
In short, the MetroCard stinks. There was nothing wrong with the tokens, and no need whatsoever to replace them.
OK, I feel better now.
Ferdinand Cesarano
yeah, well how bout when those cards lose their magnetivity, and it won't swipe until you go to the teller?
[...and enabling nefarious police practices such as the tracking of individuals.]
This is my only quam with MetroCard technology. Essentially, it allows for "Big Brother" type monitoring, which unfortunately, comes with the territory.
As for your claims of the card being easy to lose in a shirt pocket, their is a simple solution: for $1.50 you can buy a MetroCard holder. I have used one for nearly two years and have yet to lose a card. It also serves a second purpose -- it helps to eliminate the electro-magnetic "dings" which occur from keeping an it in close proximity to other magnetic strip-using cards.
BMTman
For them to track you, they have to know who the hell you are. Pay with cash, they don't. It's a meaningless troll argument.
-Hank
>>> For them to track you, they have to know who the hell you are <<<
Anyone arrested with a Metrocard in his possession is subject to having his recent movements scrutinized by tracing Metrocard swipes. This may place someone near the scene of a crime, or verify an alibi.
Tom
I would suggest losing the MetroCard after commiting a crime :-)
Arti
The odds of getting caught are fairly nil. So someone will try using the card again later and make a little more money.
>>>...for $1.50 you can buy a MetroCard holder. <<<
Hell, if you play your cards right, you can pick up a holder for free every time they introduce MVMs to a station.
Peacd,
ANDEE
Your lengthy arguments failed to persuade me.
Obviously there is going to be a lot of subjectivity on this subject. For an ex-New Yorker like myself who loves and takes advantage of every opportunity to return to the city and ride public transportation, there is nothing like the $4.00 one-day Fun Pass (a lot larger system and a dollar less than the one-day pass here in DC). The bargain afforded by this pass, made possible by the Metrocard technology, is almost beyond compare. Also, the unlimited free bus-bus and bus-train transfers made possible by this technology are much smoother and move people along more efficiently than the paper transfers.
Never had any of the problems you mentioned about carrying the card. Perhaps it is because I use a special much-slimmed-down New York trip wallet, but even aside from that, the shirt pocket never posed the problems you described. Yes, I waxed nostalgic about the passing of the token, but the $4.00 one-day pass sure got me over it. Dont write off the one-day pass users.
For an ex-New Yorker like myself who loves and takes advantage of every opportunity to return to the city and ride public transportation, there is nothing like the $4.00 one-day Fun Pass (a lot larger system and a dollar less than the one-day pass here in DC). The bargain afforded by this pass, made possible by the Metrocard technology, is almost beyond compare.
Good point. I have to admit that the one-day Fun Pass is a benefit that the MetroCard brings. I hadn't considered that.
While this shoots my argument that the MetroCard has absolutely no advantages over tokens, I would still assert that, on balance, it does more harm than good. My points about the MetroCard's negative effect on jobs, about the surveillence implications, and about the potential change in the per-ride fare structure still stand.
Ferdinand Cesarano
[Buzzer]
Metrocards have a good advantage over tokens. (Though I can't think of others right now. Some help would be appreciated)
You have unlimited transfers! You can't get that with tokens.
"With a card one can have these many rides..."
I'd hold up a fist full of 10 packs
"...without the bulk!"
I'd hold up a single metrocard
True. The hassles are eliminated with Metrocard.
Of course there were other hassles that happened with metrocard. But as long as the customer can get a receipt from the machine stating there was trouble, they can get reimbursed for the money lost. It might take a few days. But they will get their money back.
Yes, and so this ends this part of the thread!
It will be picked up again on another thread when someone complains about losing money in a MVM.
*Sighs*
Let's hope it's not found!
Unfortunately it's just a matter of time.
I prefer MetroCards, but just to play "devil's advocate", unlimited ride type "fun passes" have been available in Toronto for at least 20 years. However, it's not in a magnetic strip format. It's just a card like a "scratch-off" lottery type ticket, where the date is scratched off to be displayed to bus drivers or station agents.
While your argument on how you think that free subway to bus transfers would have worked with paper transfers, just look at Franklin Ave/Fulton Street station before they enclosed the transfer point. The paper transfers were stolen by the thousands so they could be "sold" to passengers first entering the station. By adhering to your proposal, this thievery would have been committed at every subway station in the city. In civilized cities like Toronto, this crap did not and does not occur.
It's just a card like a "scratch-off" lottery type ticket, where the date is scratched off to be displayed to bus drivers or station agents.
As are the ones in Montréal. The biggest problem is that it is incredibly easy to inadvertently scratch the card in another spot while carrying it, thus rendering it invalid. Bad design! We used tokens in Toronto but did use the bus and Métro enough in Montréal to justify the card and, while we didn't scratch ours up too much, we observed two cases where tourists had gotten theirs scratched accidentally in the wrong places and they had to pay additional fares.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In Toronto, they usually punch out the day the card will be used so that you can accidentally scratch the card and it will still be valid.
In the last days before the stations were reconfigured, they did away with the paper transfer for the SHuttle. They had a "bus farebox" in the three booths (one at Prospect Park and oen each for both sides at Franklin IND.) the S/A issued a paper MetroCard which is coded to be valid only for a certain time period and only for the opposite shuttle if issued at Franklni or only gfood at Franklin if issued at Propsect Park.
And if I remember people were getting po'ed at TA at the time because some of the transfers didn't work. The reason why the transfers didn't work was because they were used. People would collect the cards off the ground. They would go to the booth and say that the transfer didn't work. Please let me in.
Well, at this depot we still get thousands of pieces of paper from Token Booths (Sr & Disabled who don't own the MC ver. for them).
To get paid we have to collect them & send them back to the TA, yuck !
The Bx55 had bus to subway transfers as well to the 2/5 and the 4/B/D trains (for a while at Yankee Stadium until they stopped running the Bx55 there)
In Chicago, before the arrival of transit cards, we had weekend, weekly and monthly passes. You flashed it to the ticket agent and he let you through the turnstyle next to his booth. There's no reason this could not have been done in New York somehow.
I like tokens better for the simple fact that you can tell how many rides you have left WITHOUT inserting the card in a goddamn machine. You can just look in your pocket and see how many rides you have left, without even having to be anywhere near a subway station. That's why I think tokens have advantages over plastic.
Yes, let's hold up the booth line every time someone shows a pass at Penn Station. They'll be real popular.
It works fine in Philly. Here the token agents don't sell tokens or passes, they appect cash and inspect passes. NY should do the same.
Will soon when there will be no tokens.
Arti
Can't come soon enough for me. Get rid of those snot-head token booth clerks.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't blame station agents for their surly behavior at times. Considering the crowds with which they have to deal and irrational passengers blaming them for all of the problems in the subway, their attitude should be expected and innocent people get caught in the crossfire. I blame idiot passengers who spit on the booth when the agent informs them that there's a GO or something.
I once got yelled at and insulted for tapping on the glass. And you can't tell me that on Sunday 63rd Drive ever gets much of a crowd.
I got yelled at for the same thing at Kings Highway.
That agent is working at Sheepshead Bay now, and I'm using Sheepshead Bay now.
That's nice of you. It's really a 'you think your side is right' kind of thing.
Huh? I did really say I thought I was right or wrong for tapping on the glass. But it was an overreaction on the agent's part.
For shame, ANDROO!
I went railfanning recently with a group that included a station agent. One gets an entirely different perspective hearing him/her relate stories of ignorant and misdemeanor-committing customers.
Bob
I concur with your thought. The station agent is often the "face of the MTA" to the customer. Having no place else to vent their frustrations (both transit and sometimes non-transit related), the station agent often catches grief for things far beyond their control. I have seen agents who are very adept at defusing situations. More power to them, but that is doing an outstanding job. No one can perfrom at 150% all the time. Agents are human too, they can have a bad day themselves, but working in a fishbowl, they don't get that luxury. I think we need to be more understanding of these hard working employees of the MTA.
In DC the remaining value of the regular fare card is printed on the face of the card after each use. Who knows? Maybe a future version of the New York card could do this also.
Also, with the one-day or multi-day pass, the question of remaining value does not come up, only the expiration date or time. In DC the expiration date is printed on the face of the card after the first use. In New York it is flashed in front of your face every time you use it, so forgetting is not normally a problem.
The expiration date is only shown on bus fareboxes; the subway turnstiles only say "GO" when you use an unlimited ride Metrocard. Something that needs to be fixed, in my opinion, even if it does mean lining Cubic's pockets ;).
There's no reason this could not have been done in New York somehow.
Yes there is. The station agent is already too overworked (notice how surly many of them are), and the lines are huge. The card prevents people from having to wait in line every ride.
Students and the elderly/disabled had to do it EVERY time, whether they like it or not. The current system is very much of an improvement. Boston uses electronic scanners for time passes. Once you have the scanners, you might as well use them for more features.
They can use a pass that can be shown to the token agent who would then buzz you through.
Use a MetroCard holder. They only cost $1.50. If you buy a Metrocard form a MVM when it's being introduced to the station, they usually give it out for free.
I don't see how it's possible to do bus to subway, subway to bus, subway to subway transefers. You would need people to give out and recieve these transfers at the stations, wouldn't you? And why would we need a subway to subway transfer?
Also, wouldn't it be easier for students and senior citizens to have MetroCards? We wouldn't have to show cards to anyone and wait for them to open the gate.
If you have a lot of change, tokens will be a problem. It'll take time to search for them. However, if you have a Metrocard holder, it would be much easier.
Metrocard technology has allowed part-time stations to become full-time station with the high-wheel turnstiles.
I believe MVMs can operate in several languages. People who can't speak English can buy rides much more easily.
I don't see how it's possible to do bus to subway, subway to bus, subway to subway transefers. You would need people to give out and recieve these transfers at the stations, wouldn't you?
You sure would. These are potential jobs which have been obviated by the MetroCard.
Metrocard technology has allowed part-time stations to become full-time station with the high-wheel turnstiles.
Staffing these stations full-time would also accomplish this. Again, the loss (or non-creation) of jobs on account of the MetroCard.
Also, wouldn't it be easier for students and senior citizens to have MetroCards? We wouldn't have to show cards to anyone and wait for them to open the gate.
Seniors and students could be given IDs which would allow them to buy tokens from the booth at a lower rate.
And why would we need a subway to subway transfer?
I should have been more clear on this. I meant transfers between nearby stations on different lines, such as between Queens Plaza (E, F, G, R) and Queensboro Plaza (N, 7); between Lafayette Ave. (C) and the many lines at Atlantic Ave./Pacific St.; between Lorimer St. or Hewes St. (J) and Broadway (G); and -- everyone's favorite -- between Junius St. (3) and Livonia Ave. (L).
Use a MetroCard holder.
Well, I think you're right about that one.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I don't see how it's possible to do bus to subway, subway to bus, subway to subway transefers. You would need people to give out and recieve these transfers at the stations, wouldn't you?
You sure would. These are potential jobs which have been obviated by the MetroCard.
Metrocard technology has allowed part-time stations to become full-time station with the high-wheel turnstiles.
Staffing these stations full-time would also accomplish this. Again, the loss (or non-creation) of jobs on account of the MetroCard.
Your reference to the "loss (or non-creation) of jobs" touches on a very important distinction. As I've said before, one of the major differences between NYCT and virtually any private-sector employer is the former's willingness to maintain higher staffing levels than are strictly necessary. I've no doubt whatsoever that if the subways were run by a private operator, token clerks and most conductors would have vanished years ago. There probably also would have been considerable "decruitment" in other, not publically visible, jobs as well.
But the NYCT is not a private business, and staffing policies are different. And I do not consider that a bad thing. On balance, it's probably better for the subway system to continue its historic role of providing upward economic mobility for generations of city dwellers and immigrants, rather than be run with a coldhearted fixation on the bottom line. Yet I am not willing to go another step and say that the subway should be run as a patronage machine, creating redundant, no-work jobs. That approach would be very detrimental to its long-term financial health and, ultimately, probably would lead to fewer jobs not too far down the road.
Fine, you want the extra jobs, then YOU pay the extra fare! I will certainly not pay for your idiotic ideas about job losses.
Throughout history automation has killed jobs. Even though the population is higher, why is unemployment not off the charts?
Seniors and students could be given IDs which would allow them to buy tokens from the booth at a lower rate.
So they can give their friends and family tokens at a cheaper rate?
If the Student Free system were here, one student could go to any booth, show a pass, get a token, go to a different booth, get a second token, etc. until they had a large amount. Then go to a crowded station an unload them at 100% profit (minus the 2 tokens needed to get to the station and then home).
I can hear them screaming! We do call the police for people selling tokens or cards or rides to others. By the time the police come they flee the station and go elsewhere.
Selling swipes (or tokens, or rides) is illegal and if we catch you then you are subject to summons and/or arrest and/or removal.
Many stations have undercover police presence. When we warn a customer about selling swipes the plain clothes officer will help the customer enrich the city financiasl status.
Hey, some guy selling swipes let me cut the LONG line at the token booth on my one and only recent NYC Subway ride. For a visiter the swipe seller was easier to use/understand than the metrocard system.
Selling swipes (or tokens, or rides) is illegal and if we catch you then you are subject to summons and/or arrest and/or removal.
Would it also be illegal to donate an unexpired one-day or multi-day pass which is no longer of any use to someone leaving town after a day (or days) in the city to, say a panhandler, a cleric, or just anyone you see who looks down and out and could use a free ride home?
>Would it also be illegal to donate an unexpired one-day or multi-day
pass which is no longer of any use to someone leaving town after a day
(or days) in the city to, say a panhandler, a cleric, or just anyone you see who looks down and out and could use a free ride home? >>
I am not a lawyer but I would say no. Since the cards all look the same (and do not say "Non-Tranferable" you can give it to anyone you want.
But why would you want to give it to a panhandler? So they can bed down on a subway train?
I was once entering the subway at 67th ave (not any major station) and a woman walked up to me, gave me a card, and walked away. It was a weekly with 2 days left.
Why is selling tokens illegal? A token=$1.50, no matter what! Selling swipes from a pass obviously should be illegal, and from a pay-per-ride should also be because of the 10% discount. But why tokens? I once had an extra token, but needed money for PATH so I sold it at Hoboken (at face value). The person was able to skip the long line at 34th, and I got to go home, who lost anything?
Why should selling selling swipes be illegal? State governments have allowed fly by nite telephone and electric companies do the same thing. They buy bulk discount rates from companies who actually provide services and then split the differance with the customer. Its the MTA's fault if they have a system that can be abused. You can't blame the passengers for taking advantage of it.
>>> Its the MTA's fault if they have a system that can be abused. <<<
An interesting point of view. If you are burglarized is it your fault that you did not have better locks? Your idea that it is alright to beat the system if you can figure out how to do it shows a lack of basic morality.
Tom
If you can engage in what would otherwise not be an overtly illegal act to exploit loop-holes in a system you should be able to. I generally consider myself a social Darwinist. People find ways to beat the system and the system finds ways to stop them. In the end you have a better system. If the MTA leaves a gate they could arrest people who walk through it or they could close it. I support the later choice, and people streaming through the gate is the MTA's signal to close it and will teach them not to leave another one open in the future. If loop holes are bad then the only ways corporations will eliminate them is if there is a cost to having them in place.
>>> If you can engage in what would otherwise not be an overtly illegal act to exploit loop-holes in a system you should be able to. <<<
What kind of double talk is this? What is meant by "what would otherwise not be an overtly illegal act"? That sounds like justifying breaking any law you fail to approve of. When you are defrauding someone you are committing a morally reprehensible act, whether it is illegal or not, and selling swipes on a time delimited Metrocard is illegal.
It is a shame that banks, transit systems and everyone else cannot trust people to be honest and operate on the honor system (and clearly they cannot), but justifying exploiting loop holes in a system as somehow improving the breed is the height of self delusion. It does not fool others.
According to your thinking, if you could break the security of a bank's computer system and transfer a couple million dollars to an overseas account, there would be nothing wrong with doing it because it would be helping the bank to discover the flaws in its system. The difference between that and cheating the TA out of fares is not a moral difference, just one of amount. Or as the punch line of the old joke goes, "we have determined what you are, now we're just haggling over the price."
Tom
According to your thinking, if you could break the security of a bank's computer system and transfer a couple million dollars to an overseas account, there would be nothing wrong with doing it because it would be helping the bank to discover the flaws in its system.
No, any type of breaking in is an overt illegal act and is not a loop hole. If during the normal use of a computerized banking system you find a way to profit (like depositing $1.38 has the computer give you $100) you should be able exploit it and keep your windfall until the bank closes the hole with out fear of punishment. Recently someone discovered seceret coupon codes for Staples.com that let you get 57$ off any order. My friends exploited that loophole which prompted Staples to close it a few days later. People and companies need to realize that mistakes cost money and you can't pass law to prevent people taking advantage of another one's stupidity.
You're an idiot. What you're saying is that if you leave the door open, and you get robbed, tough shit.
And then you people scream about rising prices...no wonder you do your shopping in other peoples crap. Was that you on Woodhaven Blvd this morning?
-Hank
Tell me where you live so I can break into your house and steal all your belongings. I know you won't call the police, because hey, you should have know someone would find a way to break your door down (exploit your loophole) and take your stuff. That will teach you not to own anything.
-Hank
Did you not read my last post? I specifically said that breaking into something is not a loop hole. When a system has a design flaw (private houses are not systems) if someone exploits it through an action that is not inherently illegal (breaking into things or fruadently lying are some examples of illegal) they should not get in trouble for being creative/smart. The Metrocard system allows for someone to but like 20 fun passes and then sell swipes. If the MTA dosen't want that they should change the system instead of making it illegal to do the smart thing. If a seceret MTA passage leads you from a gas station bathroom to the subway platform you should not be arrested for fare evasion because the route you found did not require a fare. I'm sure you'll find a way to distort my position by taking it to the limit.
My point is, if it's illegal, it doesn't matter how smart you are. Are you studying law, or working for OJ Simpson?
If you're smart enough to get away with a crime, it does not mean you should not be punished. It's a smart thing to pump and dump. And it's illegal. Doesn't change the fact that it's a crime, and the criminal should be punished. Again, this explains why you shop in garbage cans. Changing the system is not the way you prevent crime. You prevent crime by educating possible offenders (everyone) and punishing those who don't heed that education.
I expect with your attitude you'll wind up in a federal penitentiary somewhere in the midwest.
-Hank
I've seen gates left open and people being recieving a summons for walking through it. A rotten thing to do, but I guess it legally falls short or entrapment (any lawyers on the board?).
Of course it's entrapment...so cops can meet their summons' quotas which has little to do with safety.
Or how about when those cops in the Bronx several years ago deliberately ran their patrol car over the sensor in the roadway to turn a signal red so they could write red light summons to increase their productivity.
Or hiding police cars to give up red light summons, many of which are illegal as they cannot see the colour of the light the motorist passes. I got such a summons several years ago, I brought in pictures to show that although in issuing a summons a cop has to certify he personally observed the violation, the piece of garbage cop lied that he had synchronized the light before and after issuing the summons, I showed the so called impartial hearing officer pictures with a wide angle lens that there is no way the cop could have personally observed the colour of the light or whether the light was operating that I allegedly had passed. But here in New York on such things, the "judge" (actually a moonlighting lawyer intent on picking up extra income) always sides with the cop. Whatever happened to the rule of law that a person is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
But that's what happens when we have jerks like the former Mayor who claims they can track productivity.
Oh well, just the thoughts of an honest citizen.
If the Student Free system were here, one student could go to any booth, show a pass, get a token, go to a different booth, get a second token, etc. until they had a large amount. Then go to a crowded station an unload them at 100% profit (minus the 2 tokens needed to get to the station and then home).
Where would that different booth be? In many cases it would be at another station. That sounds like a lot of work for something that is illegal. In todays era of entrepreneurial startups, wouldnt our energetic young entrepreneur be better off using his wit and egergy in an honest endeavour?
No, they would be able to buy multiple tokens at one booth. Otherwise the tokens would be superfluous and they'd just use the old and HORRIBLE system of waiting 5 minutes in line just to be buzzed in by the agent.
What a ridiculous idea! It's so much better with Metrocard now. Too much work.
You realize that you posted a reply to a message that was two years old !
Don't set your preferences to Several Eons and you may not have that problem. Otherwise, look at the date the message was posted. If it's not in the last three weeks, a reply is somewhat useless.
[B]MY LORD!!![/B]
I thought it was this year. That's what I get from reading too fast. I don't read the date/time info often anyway....
I don't see this as a problem. The message merited revival if someone wanted to reply to it. We do have a thread on the matter that started THIS YEAR and it's better to access and old thread and have people respond to those message than regurgitate all of the same crap over and over again.
It would never occur to me to oppose the introduction of the card technology because of the loss of jobs. This point has already been addressed in previous posts. Let me just add a starker example. Opposing the card with the employment argument would be akin (in an earlier era) to opposing conversion of the horse drawn omnibuses to electrical and mechanically driven vehicles because of the loss of the jobs of blacksmiths. In the larger scheme of things the blacksmiths were replaced by mechanics and electricians, also entry level jobs for the immigrant population.
The part-time stations have one or two passengers every hour. Is it worth staffing these stations?
Students and senior citizens buying tokens at the booth would be an inconvenience. With the card, I don't have to wait in line; just swipe and go.
Seniors and students could be given IDs which would allow them to buy tokens from the booth at a lower rate.
NO NO NO! That is such a bad idea. Let's see if you can figure out why. Here's a hint, what advantageous action would people take with their discount tokens?
There were token entry turnstyles before there were metrocard turnstyles! What's the point?
As for the language thing, other countries don't have instructions in English; shouldn't people here learn the language of the U.S.?
There were token entry turnstyles before there were metrocard turnstyles! What's the point?
More expensive, and more unreliable.
As for the language thing, other countries don't have instructions in English; shouldn't people here learn the language of the U.S.?
And basically every tourist that's not from an English speaking country should be forbidden from entering the US.
Someone at work pointed out to me that it's highly likely that these immgrants who can't read, write, or speak english likely can't read or write in their native language either. You rarely have rich immgrants, they're usually the poorest citizens of the country they have left behind.
-Hank
That may be true in some cases, but as a general rule I disagree. Most of the immigrants who don't learn our language have made the choice to not do so, simply because they wish to cling to the familiar culture of home.
Even among the educated this can be a problem - I have several extremely talented Korean programmers on my staff, all of whom have been in this country for at least four years, whose ability to communicate in English is so limited that I have had to assign them to work together, along with another of their countrymen who does speak fluent English. Their code is great, but they can't even read what I write on their appriasal forms. (I didn't hire them and probably would not have, given their attitude about English; on the other hand, their problem-solving abilities are excellent and their code is among the cleanest in my organization.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> You rarely have rich immgrants, they're usually the poorest citizens of the country they have left behind <<<
Hank;
That may have been true at the turn of the last century, but not now. About the only poor immigrants coming to the U.S. are refugees. Our immigration laws tend to keep out poor immigrants.
Tom
The first wave of post-Castro Cuban immigrants to flood into Miami were wealthy; they were permitted to emigrate if they left their wealth behind. The Cuban section of Miami was a low crime area.
That changed after the Bay of Pigs fiasco when people from the lower economic strata came in.
That changed after the Bay of Pigs fiasco when people from the lower economic strata came in.
Are you insinuating that my people were somehow involved? :-)
You were thouroughly rebuked the last time you posted this. Funny, it was the second time you lost the card from your shirt pocket then, too.
-Hank
What are you talking about??
While I probably have mentioned my dislike of the MetroCard before, I have never written a whole post about it, much less been "thoroughly rebuked" over it. (Go right ahead now, though -- if you can.)
Also, I don't remember posting anything here the first time I lost my card.
I think you have me confused with some other complaining crabass.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I think you have me confused with some other complaining crabass.
That's easy to do. We have a plethora of complaining crabasses here.
plethora ...what a conundrum...Doug are you paying attention?
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh, no! The invasion of the phlethora posters!!!!!
:-)
BMTman
10/22/2000
[Oh, no! The invasion of the phlethora posters!!!!!]
No Doug, just an endless litany of verbal tirades !
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS !!
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
When MetroCard first came out, I didn't like it. It was the original blue ones. If you think the MetroCard Golds are thin, you need to check out a MetroCard Classic. It used to take me at least 3 swipes to get through. They definately changed the system... for the better. I'm pretty sure it'll get better. I have no complaints of the MetroCard except, I'd prefer the Dip in the subway rather than the Swipe. Of course, it'll take money to change them all and I've already gotten used to it.
running on...
The cards are the same thickness.
-Hank
Nope, there is a difference between the blue ones and the gold ones. Maybe we need a second opinion... Thurston?
running on...
Second opinion ... the cards are the same.
Mr t__:^)
I recall seeing scans of a card someone had diped in tape developer, there is a difference in hte tracks on the 2 cards.
-Hank
(First of all, the MetroCard is too light. The card needs to be kept handy, so it really cannot practically be kept in your wallet, where cards would normally go.)
I keep it in a Metrocard holder in my pocket. The card is much better than tokens for women, whose garments often lack pockets but carry pocketbooks.
(Tokens, on the other hand, are handy and durable. They can be kept aywhere, and are virtually impossible to damage. As an added advantage, they once also functioned as our own New York City currency, with many stores freely accepting them alongside
regular money for payment)
Banks have been trying to introduce "smart card" technology for some time. The MTA hasn't been able to close a deal, but at some point in the future it may be possible to buy things with a pay per ride Metrocard.
(Even though there is no variable pricing right now, the MetroCard
technology (including the potential future addition of exit swipe readers) renders the imposition of this sort of outer-borough tax well within the range of possibility.)
You'd have to install exit readers at a cost of millions, over the opposition of the vast majority of subway riders. Won't happen. What may happen is higher prices at peak hour, which I agree with.
(The bus-to-train or train-to-bus transfers which we now have (as well as the train-to-train transfers which we have never had but should have) could have easily been accomplished using tokens and paper transfers.)
Where such transfers were in effect, you had massive fare beating, which the Metrocard has reduced. Want to raise fares to compensate for other people's theft of services?
(MetroCard apologists also claim that using the card gives the rider the "advantage" of getting an extra ride for every 10-ride purchase. Please. As though tokens couldn't be sold in this manner, giving 11 tokens (or 12, or 13...) for the price of 10.)
That much is true...they could have given a discount for a ten pack.
(Additionally, from a wider socio-political perspective, the whole MetroCard technology -- including the presence of those vending monstrosities -- is a nightmare, destroying good jobs.)
All productivity gains reduce employment -- while creating it elsewhere by giving people disposable income to spend on other things. If you don't agree, get off the internet, which is destroying far more jobs. Just think of the cost of participating in "subtalk" in a newsletter? We could all be spending a couple of hundred dollars per year on subscriptions.
(Enabling nefarious police practices such as the tracking of individuals.)
The police have better things to do than keep track of people who don't commit crimes.
(Finally, the whole MetroCard system is a massive ripoff of the public sector.)
It is one of the few things the public sector has done that has actually worked. Want real ripoffs? Anyone who works for the government can give you a list.
All productivity gains reduce employment -- while creating it elsewhere by giving people disposable income to spend on other things. If you don't agree, get off the internet, which is destroying far more jobs. Just think of the cost of participating in "subtalk" in a newsletter? We could all be spending a couple of hundred dollars per year on subscriptions.
Are you saying "subtalk" is available free? I don't have to subscribe through the heypaul institute of mathematical economics?
(MetroCard apologists also claim that using the card gives the rider the "advantage" of getting an extra ride for every 10-ride purchase. Please. As though tokens couldn't be sold in this manner, giving 11 tokens (or 12, or 13...) for the price of 10.)
That much is true...they could have given a discount for a ten pack.
So token clerks can rip them up and sell individual tokens for full price and pocket the difference?
(MetroCard apologists also claim that using the card gives the rider the "advantage" of getting an extra ride for every 10-ride purchase. Please. As though tokens couldn't be sold in this manner, giving 11 tokens (or 12, or 13...) for the price of 10.)
That much is true...they could have given a discount for a ten pack.
(So token clerks can rip them up and sell individual tokens for full price and pocket the difference? )
OK, you win, I'm now the THIRD most cynical person on the board. I'll still put Peter Rosa ahead of you, but that may just be a result of age. I'd hate to see what you are like in your 40s.
Well, I'm not going to doubt your claim about my cynicism, but do you seriously think that without any system of preventing this, that the TA would do it?
For one thing, there's no way to track this habit. You can pocket the bags and dump them outside the booth. Since Metrocards cannot be split, this practice doesn't occur and cannot.
Actually wasn't there some kind of scam with Metrocards last year.
Arti
Actually wasn't there some kind of scam with Metrocards last year.
There have been a few. Somebody figured out a way to get MetroCards to give extra rides by folding them vertically at a particular location. And then there's always the practice of buying a bunch of Fun Passes and using them in sequence to swipe people through for a dollar.
No, I mean by token booth clerks.
Arti
Criminals exist in all walks of life, there are some people who will find a way to steal from their employer, but I really can't see a tremendous number of station agents risking their jobs (and benefits and pensions) for the small amount they could pocket via breaking open discounted token ten packs and selling each token for full fare. As I said, I'm sure there will a handful of knuckleheads who will, but they would be few and far between. And I may add, anyone so misguided, is probably no brain surgen and odds they would be arrested in short order.
Of course, when you reply to a two year old post, nobody can follow the thread. This is a new problem. check your board settings. On SubTalk, setting to Last Two Weeks lets you see most of the current topics and threads.
Stop complaining, you can always click on the Reply to: link.
In this case, I posted a response to a message in that thread, leading to its rediscovery. People were able to click up (like you seem unable to do) and post responses to other messages in the thread.
P.S. In case you haven't noticed, not only is it impossible to set the thread setting to Several Eons (the longest is two months) anymore, doing so would force the display of over 380000 messages. Do you think anybody will read through that?
My personal belief is that anyone who replies first to a two-year old post is bucking for 1st Class troll. It wastes time, bandwidth space and index bytes. It serves nothing. Can you remember, verbatum, every post you have made under every user name you have had? I suspect not.
No, it doesn't.
What difference does it make if I post a new topic or respond to an old thread? At least by responding to an old thread, people now can easily see and access those messages, instead of posting the same garbage over again and thus SAVE bandwidth.
I guess you'll have to think about that one a little bit more.
Posters are free to respond to any message they like. You can choose to read them or not.
[That much is true...they could have given a discount for a ten pack. ]
I don't think so. Unlike Metrocard you'll be buying 11 discreet items you could sell at the face value. What would stop token booth agents from opening the 11 pack and selling those individually.
Arti
>>> The police have better things to do than keep track of people who don't commit crimes. <<<
Although I agree with the rest of your post, this statement is a bit naive. It goes along with "If you have nothing to hide why would you object to the police searching your home?." History has taught us that police powers can be easily abused.
Tom
The use of tokens also guaranteed the continued existence of one basic, fundamental characteristic of the subway -- the same fare for any ride, no matter the distance (notwithstanding the double fare that was at one time charged for Rockaway service)
That may be true in NYC, but not in Boston. Until recently, on the Red Line to Braintree you would have to put a token in the turnstile to get out, in addition to when you got in at any station. I have no idea how the fare system works now that the fare has been increased to $1 (from 85 cents)
NYCT can easily do the same thing.
First of all, the MetroCard is too light. The card needs to be kept handy, so it really cannot practically be kept in your wallet, where cards would normally go. Because it is flimsy, it certainly can't be kept in a pants pocket alongside change or small bills.
So, basically, this leaves a shirt pocket. Keeping the card there, however, makes it EXTREMELY easy to lose while one is removing and inserting other objects that are also very likely to be kept in a shirt pocket (e.g.: pens, eyeglasses, tissues, dollar bills, etc.)
Using one of those readily available holders largely eliminates this problem. Or just keep your MC in your wallet - its lightness is no real issue.
The use of tokens also guaranteed the continued existence of one basic, fundamental characteristic of the subway -- the same fare for any ride, no matter the distance (notwithstanding the double fare that
was at one time charged for Rockaway service) or the time of day. Even though there is no variable pricing right now, the MetroCard technology (including the potential future addition of exit swipe
readers) renders the imposition of this sort of outer-borough tax well within the range of possibility.
Eliminating the one-city-one-fare policy would be a very big political issue. Just because it can be done (thanks to the MC) does not in any way mean that it ever will be done ... and let's not forget that a good-faith argument can be made that it should be done.
For example, some would have you believe that the MetroCard has the "advantage" of allowing for free transfers where none existed before. Nonsense. Transferablity among the buses and subways (or lack thereof) is 100% an adminitrative decision, and the bus-to-train or train-to-bus transfers which we now have (as well as the train-to-train transfers which we have never had but should have) could have easily been accomplished using tokens and paper transfers, as bus-to-bus transfers had always previously been handled.
More work, more recordkeeping, less efficiency.
Additionally, from a wider socio-political perspective, the whole MetroCard technology -- including the presence of those vending monstrosities -- is a nightmare, destroying good jobs and enabling
nefarious police practices such as the tracking of individuals.
It's been emphasized here and elsewhere that the advent of the vending machines will not cause any token clerks to be re-engineered. They'll eventually be reassigned to a customer service-type role, similar to that long practiced by the station agents in the Washington Metro. As far as police tracking is concerned, well, if it helps catch criminals, I'm all for it. And don't forget that MC conceiveably could help exonerate suspects.
It has exonerated suspects, someone recently was "caught" fare beating, turns out he used his girlfriend's Student Pass, and was let go.
If it was his girl firend's pass that too is wrong! I have confiscated (per rules) a student MetroCard which was someone else's card. The customer received a just used message. I asked them to come to the booth. Customer said it belonged to his brother! I then told the cuastomer I had to take his card.
Using a card (senior Citizen or Disabled or student) not belonging to you is wrong! Police can arrest a customer for that and in the case of a reduced fare card the person to whom the card really belongs will permanently lsoe eligibility for reduced fare card.
One time the police took away a customer in handcuffs after I alerted them to fraudulent use.(I was working gates at that station and the officers were in plain clothes.)
If it was his girl firend's pass that too is wrong!
Then he can get a ticket for a petty crime instead of what was charged, which was much more severe.
In addition, the penalty should be waived since he was wrongly incarcerated.
My thoughts exactly, When I read it I was surprised that wasn't mentioned in the article. In school in freshman year they spent 45 minutes telling us the Dos and Donts of the Student Pass. (They also check our pass usage when we are out sick).
Why can't a student pass be used for STUDENTS! My college discount works weither or not I'm on official college bussiness or not. What is the point of the MTA trying to milk extra money out of these kids on the off-school time. Restructure the fare structure a bit and just give them a discount. They could turn the student ID into a metrocard.
Maybe private schools care, but my school only enforced that which was enforced electronically (3 rides + transfers 05:30-20:30 weekdays). I even thought it was legal to use it on holidays until a bus driver pointed it out.
Out-of-town other systems have college student semester passes which to me makes a lot of since if the school is downtown & everything that a student would want to do is accessible via mass transit.
Could be an option in the Room & Board or Meal Plan costs ?
Mr t__:^)
>>> What is the point of the MTA trying to milk extra money out of these kids on the off-school time. <<<
Maybe the TA doesn't really want to attract their business. I've seen many posts about the problems with school kids when school lets out in the afternoon. Why would the TA want to entice them to ride more with discounted rides at all times? My guess is the reason there are any student discounts at all is in recognition of the fact that public transit replaces the school buses that are seen in most cities.
Tom
the fact that public transit replaces the school buses that are seen in most cities.
Thank god.
And I'm sure most larger cities still have school public transit. Especially when there are schools that attract people from far and wide.
I've seen many posts about the problems with school kids when school lets out in the afternoon.
If that was the reason then the TA would be discriminating against those who aren't wild animals by applying a blanket restriction.
The real reason that ALL senior citizens get discounts while youth do not get them is because people under eighteen can't vote; Elderly people vote in droves (ever wondered why Medicare, Social Security and prescription drug coverage are such hot issues?).
>>> If that [unruly students] was the reason then the TA would be discriminating against those who aren't wild animals by applying a blanket restriction. <<<
What restriction? Students are not prevented from riding just like anyone else, they are just not given any special discount. Students have no innate right to have discounted fares for transit.
>>> The real reason that ALL senior citizens get discounts while youth do not get them is because people under eighteen can't vote <<<
No, the real reason for discounts is that seniors are widely assumed to have less income as a group than others (supported by statistics) and more likely to be public transit dependent, AND are desirable customers. It is easier to give all seniors a discount than to set up a bureaucracy to set some kind of means test. The business justification is that the discounts encourage an overall increase in revenue from additional usage of the system in non peak hours (seniors being seen as not a large part of the commuting to work crowd). Without a doubt there is also a political component to the decision to give seniors a discount, which is supported not only by the seniors themselves, but also by those who see themselves as one day being old enough to use the discounts.
Tom
Students have no innate right to have discounted fares for transit.
Just like senoirs students have no fixed income stream and must indure hi fixed costs to complete their education. A discount would encourage more people to be students and thus able to earn more in life and pay more in taxes. I wonder if a college student could der a discount? Pigs commutes every day to Hunter college and should find out. If not he should sue.
I don't commute every day, why do you think I'm sitting here at home at 11:07 AM on a Wednesday?
And I drive on Friday.
The Student MetroCards are only for grades K-12
So learning stops at 12th grade?
No, it stops well before :-)
Some people then decide to start learning again after finishing the superfluous grades.
College is not free (unlike prisonschool), so transportation is not as much of a big deal.
No, it stops well before :-)
Truer than you might think. Perhaps that's why my younger daughter skipped high school and went to college at age 14, and why she is now a first-year law student (Georgetown University Law Center) at age 18.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Good for her!
Knowing what I know now, I would have dropped out of school when I turned sixteen, gotten a GED, and went on to college then. I don't know how to get out of high school otherwise (without waiting until the end).
I had a former guidence counselor tell my parents the same thing, after the brain-dead guy I had my senior year neglected to tell me that I needed to take a specific exam to graduate.
-Hank
We have a just turned 17 year old grad student here at Wesleyan.
My daughter was not the youngest in her graduating class either - she was still 17 when she graduated, but one of her roommates had just turned 17 a few days before graduation. That young woman is now in grad school at the University of Vermont, studying advanced mathematics.
I received my BA at 19 myself and spent the next two years pursuing an MA and an MLS simultaneously, but then I made plans to get married (becoming "instant parent" in the process) and decided I needed a real job, so I abandoned my plans for a PhD and entered the real world. And the rest, they say, is history - four children total, two grandchildren, and the same wonderful wife, to whom I will have been married for 22 years this coming Saturday.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Would that be Wesleyan in Middletown, CT ? Just around the corner from where I grew up ... another SubTalker here also worked there for a while. I drove by the school last Saturday.
Mr t__:^)
Would that be Wesleyan in Middletown, CT ? Just around the corner from where I grew up ... another SubTalker here also worked there for a while. I drove by the school last Saturday.
It must be one and the same, as Jersey Mike has mentioned Middletown in earlier postings.
He probably knows that famous line - there's no "z" in WeSS-leyan :-)
To relate this to on-topic ... my mom sent me a clipping about the Valley RxR running a special train from Old Saybrook to East Haddam again. The last time I rode that steam line (a long time ago) it came up the Ct river that far. Article says they don't intend to come north any further in the near future, i.e. Haddam, Middletown, Hartford.
BTW, For those that don't know P&W serves Middletown from NH via another ROW.
P.S. Branford has a newly restored Birmey trolley in it's main barn that last ran on the street of Middletown (a little before my time).
Mr t__:^)
While on a Geology field trip to Deep River, CT we saw the train making its intermediate stop a few times. They use former NJT, DL&W MU coaches and one of them is a primitive control cab with a whistle and brake valve because they can't turn the train for the return trip.
That's why they wanted to fix the track/bridge to East Haddam. There are a couple tracks where they can run around the coaches & run the engine on the head end, but in reverse.
I have to assume they thought the shorten trip would be short term otherwise they would have made a bypass track instead of pushing the coaches back to Essex. But then maybe there was some problem with the State of CT, i.e. adding track ?
Mr t__:^)
I am sorry! I only post the policies as set forth by the Authority. My view does not matter. If tomorrow they say that school kids must pay full fare then I would have to follow that rule (or lose my job).
I do not make the policy decisions- I just have to follow the policies as set forth in official instructions or face dismissal.
What restriction? Students are not prevented from riding just like anyone else, they are just not given any special discount. Students have no innate right to have discounted fares for transit.
The way you said it, it sounded as if that was the only reason the TA was not offering full time student or youth discounts.
No, the real reason for discounts is that seniors are widely assumed to have less income as a group than others (supported by statistics)
Lets start of with the fact that I'm talking about people who are under eighteen, not college students.
Nothing prevents a senior citizen from working unless a disability prevents it, and they've had over forty years of work to save up for retirement. Teenagers are forced by the government to go to school full time, get no compensation and then are limited in what jobs they can take in whatever time remains.
and more likely to be public transit dependent
As opposed to somebody who arbitrarily is not allowed to drive a car?
AND are desirable customers.
Why should they be considered desirable customers? They take forever to climb bus stairs, delaying everybody behind. They have priority to certain seats, pissing off those who got there first and it's usually the elderly who either pay in change, or don't know how to use their transfer. I'm not saying that we should punish the elderly for these shortcomings (or that giving up seats for those who need it is bad), that would be ageism. But there is no reason that a blanket statement saying that all elderly people are good should be made, just as the opposite shouldn't be said of teenagers.
It is easier to give all seniors a discount than to set up a bureaucracy to set some kind of means test.
It's also easier to create policies of discrimination (or the complete opposite) than to deal with actual problems. A single mother raising two children on a menial salary deserves half fare more than a pair of old millionaires on Park Avenue.
The business justification is that the discounts encourage an overall increase in revenue from additional usage of the system in non peak hours (seniors being seen as not a large part of the commuting to work crowd).
That would do the same thing if there were across the board off-peak discounts.
Without a doubt there is also a political component to the decision to give seniors a discount, which is supported not only by the seniors themselves, but also by those who see themselves as one day being old enough to use the discounts.
Which shows how people can be hyperopic but at the same time have short memories. Either that or politicians don't care at all about the future unless it has to do with them. Because hey, if I didn't have these discounts when I was young, why should they? Let's impose a curfew instead!
The elderly are desirable customers because, by and large, they respect the system. How much grafitti or scratchitti is done by senior citizens?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That doesn't mean that all youth will scratch things up. It just discriminates against those who are law abiding citizens.
Before tokens disappear completely, I must unequivocally state the following: I hate the MetroCard!
OK, you have the right to your opinion, no matter how stupid it is.
Why? Glad you asked.
It carries several drawbacks, and confers no advantages over the token system it is replacing.
First of all, the MetroCard is too light. The card needs to be kept handy, so it really cannot practically be kept in your wallet,
It can be kept as handy as cash, which doesn't make a wallet impractical.
where cards would normally go. Because it is flimsy, it certainly can't be kept in a pants pocket alongside change or small bills.
Maybe because you just don't try it or are clouded by your anti-progress stance.
So, basically, this leaves a shirt pocket. Keeping the card there, however, makes it EXTREMELY easy to lose while one is removing and inserting other objects that are also very likely to be kept in a shirt pocket (e.g.: pens, eyeglasses, tissues, dollar bills, etc.).
(I lost a MetroCard today in this manner, the second time this has happened to me. Would have been the third time, but one time I saw the card fall to the floor as I took out a dollar to buy a soda. I had about $20 on that damn thing today, as I did on the first card I lost.)
Don't blame others for your carelessness.
Tokens, on the other hand, are handy and durable.
Large numbers of tokens are heavy, they clink around in your pockets and are small.
They can be kept anywhere, and are virtually impossible to damage. As an added advantage, they once also functioned as our own New York City currency, with many stores freely accepting them alongside regular money for payment (at least until fares rose above $1.00, and the theiving merchants began giving only $1.00 value on a $1.10 or $1.25 token).
So that was dead before the MC rolled around, so how does that have to do with the MC?
The use of tokens also guaranteed the continued existence of one basic, fundamental characteristic of the subway -- the same fare for any ride, no matter the distance (notwithstanding the double fare that was at one time charged for Rockaway service) or the time of day.
And has this policy been established?
Even though there is no variable pricing right now, the MetroCard technology (including the potential future addition of exit swipe readers) renders the imposition of this sort of outer-borough tax well within the range of possibility.
The elimination of the two fare zones makes up for it, in the unlikely event that such readers are installed.
All arguments asserting the "advantages" of the MetroCard over the tokens are bogus, and can easily be demolished.
You don't seem to be able to do so.
For example, some would have you believe that the MetroCard has the "advantage" of allowing for free transfers where none existed before. Nonsense. Transferablity among the buses and subways (or lack thereof) is 100% an adminitrative decision, and the bus-to-train or train-to-bus transfers which we now have (as well as the train-to-train transfers which we have never had but should have) could have easily been accomplished using tokens and paper transfers, as bus-to-bus transfers had always previously been handled.
Then YOU pay for the additional employees required to do this. Or wait in longer lines for me.
MetroCard apologists also claim that using the card gives the rider the "advantage" of getting an extra ride for every 10-ride purchase. Please. As though tokens couldn't be sold in this manner, giving 11 tokens (or 12, or 13...) for the price of 10.
So the agent can rip open a pack and sell the tokens at face value and pocket the difference.
Additionally, from a wider socio-political perspective, the whole MetroCard technology -- including the presence of those vending monstrosities
As opposed to those manned monstrosities that take up more space and have longer lines. And don't accept credit or ATM cards
is a nightmare, destroying good jobs
They can get new jobs that our society can use.
and enabling nefarious police practices such as the tracking of individuals.
I didn't know you told the MTA your name when you bought a card.
In short, the MetroCard stinks. There was nothing wrong with the tokens, and no need whatsoever to replace them.
There's no need for quick free transfers, eliminating lines for students and the elderly/disabled, and making it easier to get fare and keep it longer without having heavy pockets or dealing with surly clerks whose jobs have been totally eliminated in the forward moving private sector. And UNLIMITED RIDES.
OK, I feel better now.
If you feel comfortable Ned, that's fine.
>>I didn't know you told the MTA your name when you bought a card.<<
actually, I believe each card has a unique "id" such that if bought with ATM or credit card it is linkable to the purchaser. See the recent thread about the false arrest case wherein the MetroCard record proved the innocence of the accused. A year or so back, several state of NY employees were nailed for falsifying time cards because the toll bridge records of EZ Pass 'proved' they had left the offices early. As to utility of the cards-the unlimited use cards are Great, BUT ALL of the other features have no technological basis. Chicago transit riders had bus to sub to bus rights in the 50's with paper transfers. And I share the fear that once the machinery is in place, the political temptation to institute rush hour surcharges, and distance pricing may be hard to stop.
Some confusion is cropping up here and there between the subway card and EZ Pass. With the EZ Pass the identity of the traveler is inextricably bound up with the billing system. Not so with the card. I buy both my DC and NY cards by mail with a credit card and so I could be traced if, repeat if, each card assigns a unique ID to each credit card purchaser. But I dont HAVE to do it that way; when I am in town I can just purchase by cash more cards for my next trip.
As for the arrest of those cheapos who fraudulently use student, senior, etc. cards, I am all for it.
Dont get the point about political pressure pushing for rush-hour surcharges or distances differentials (assuming, first of all that there is anything wrong with that; why should the 86th St-GCT #4 rider subsidize the Lefferts Blvd-207th St A rider?). The political pressure would push in the oppposite direction. Economic and financial pressure would push for the higher charges.
yes there is a differnce between an explicitly personalized EZ Pass and a unique but traceable Metro Card. As a daily victim of BART ticket pricing, I have a gut reaction associating the electronic fare systems with ripoff fare structures. (Not to mention the delay involved with having to swipe on exit during rush hour.) As fares represent a bare minimum of the costs of transit,I have always favored abolition or at least deliberately cheap fares to encourage more ridership.
As a daily victim of BART ticket pricing, I have a gut reaction associating the electronic fare systems with ripoff fare structures. (Not to mention the delay involved with having to swipe on exit
during rush hour.) As fares represent a bare minimum of the costs of transit,I have always favored abolition or at least deliberately cheap fares to encourage more ridership.
Distance pricing makes more sense on BART because it serves many different communities. It is in some ways more like commuter rail than urban transit, and hardly anyone objects to the idea of distance pricing on commuter rail. Because the NYC subway operates entirely within city limits, distance pricing would be a far harder sell politically; as a result, even with MetroCard we're probably likely to see the one-city-one-fare policy remain in effect for a long time.
The other interperatation of "one city, one fare" means that PATH should be able to charge a different fare, allbeit a lower fare.
Actually that was the case for many years. I recall the PATH fare being about 30 cents into the early 80's. I think it had something to do with the deal made when the WTC plan was approved, the Port Authority agreed to take over the opperation of the bankrupt Hudson and Mahattan Railroad to gain approval from NJ. NJ initally (and understandably) was not in favor of the WTC plan, the PA is a bi-state agency and as proposed NJ seemed to be gaining nothing from the project. I think maintaining the 30 cent fare was a part of that agreement. I'm not sure what lead to the PATH fare being raised (aside form common sense), the NYC transit fare was up over one dollar (I believe) when the PATH fare was still 30 cents.
The PATH fare went to 30 cents in 1961, a year prior to the PANYNJ takeover from the old H&M. It did remain at 30 cents until about 1982, when it began a steady climb 40 cents - 50 - 75 - $1 - to today's $1.50. And the old 10 cent surcharge to Newark (40 cents today when the base fare was 30) disappeared in 1967 when the Aldene Plan went into effect, making PATH effetively replace the old Jersey Central RR ferry from Communipaw to Lower Manhattan (ironically, to the location of today's Battery Park City).
The 30 cent fare from Newark, BTW, caused the old Public Service Coordinated Transport bus company to sue the Port Authority, claiming that the low PATH fare was subsidized by the tunnel and bus terminal fees its buses had to pay to enter Manhattan. Specifically, Public Service claimed that its #118 Newark - New York express was undermined by PATH. Don't know what happened to the lawsuit - but NJ Transit, the Public Service successor, no longer operates the #118 express.
The PATH fare went to 30 cents in 1961, a year prior to the PANYNJ takeover from the old H&M. It did remain at 30 cents until about 1982, when it began a steady climb 40 cents - 50 - 75 - $1 - to today's $1.50. And the old 10 cent surcharge to Newark (40 cents today when the base fare was 30) disappeared in 1967 when the Aldene Plan went into effect, making PATH effetively replace the old Jersey Central RR ferry from Communipaw to Lower Manhattan (ironically, to the location of today's Battery Park City).
The 30 cent fare from Newark, BTW, caused the old Public Service Coordinated Transport bus company to sue the Port Authority, claiming that the low PATH fare was subsidized by the tunnel and bus terminal fees its buses had to pay to enter Manhattan. Specifically, Public Service claimed that its #118 Newark - New York express was undermined by PATH. Don't know what happened to the lawsuit - but NJ Transit, the Public Service successor, no longer operates the #118 express.
I beg to differ/ First off, the bulk of BART usage is short run urban trips--the San Francisco line which is clearly an urban subway line. Even counting the Colma station beyond the arbit6rary city line thwe ridership is analagous to Evanston or Skokie usage of CTA-hardly mainline rail service. Secondly, although the East Bay comprises many political divisions, functionally this is much like the pre five borough New York. For Instance we have Emeryville and Piedmont, two political enclaves only discernable by different colors of streetysigns and police cars--the address system is continuous. I for instance live in Oakland two blocks from the Berkeley border, but the closest--distance/untimed local usage phone # for my isp is in area 415 accross the Bay in SF. BTW for recentridershipinfo see the BART official site STP which gives average daily exits by station. Given how expensive the longer branches are to operate, even at the high fares they are a huge subsidy to suburban riders, below the link to the plan which has eider data
>>http://www.bart.gov/inside/planning/01dsrtp.pdf<<
Luddites...haven't seen that label since Lynn Samuels from WABC radio.
We have an ex agent as a cleaner in the yard. Shop floor and car underseats thuroghly sanitised from wandering MetroCards and 5 cent deposit cans.
Before tokens disappear completely, I must unequivocally state the following: I hate the MetroCard!
OK, you have the right to your opinion, no matter how stupid it is.
Why? Glad you asked.
It carries several drawbacks, and confers no advantages over the token system it is replacing.
First of all, the MetroCard is too light. The card needs to be kept handy, so it really cannot practically be kept in your wallet,
It can be kept as handy as cash, which doesn't make a wallet impractical.
where cards would normally go. Because it is flimsy, it certainly can't be kept in a pants pocket alongside change or small bills.
Maybe because you just don't try it or are clouded by your anti-progress stance.
So, basically, this leaves a shirt pocket. Keeping the card there, however, makes it EXTREMELY easy to lose while one is removing and inserting other objects that are also very likely to be kept in a shirt pocket (e.g.: pens, eyeglasses, tissues, dollar bills, etc.).
(I lost a MetroCard today in this manner, the second time this has happened to me. Would have been the third time, but one time I saw the card fall to the floor as I took out a dollar to buy a soda. I had about $20 on that damn thing today, as I did on the first card I lost.)
Don't blame others for your carelessness.
Tokens, on the other hand, are handy and durable.
Large numbers of tokens are heavy, they clink around in your pockets and are small.
They can be kept anywhere, and are virtually impossible to damage. As an added advantage, they once also functioned as our own New York City currency, with many stores freely accepting them alongside regular money for payment (at least until fares rose above $1.00, and the theiving merchants began giving only $1.00 value on a $1.10 or $1.25 token).
So that was dead before the MC rolled around, so how does that have to do with the MC?
The use of tokens also guaranteed the continued existence of one basic, fundamental characteristic of the subway -- the same fare for any ride, no matter the distance (notwithstanding the double fare that was at one time charged for Rockaway service) or the time of day.
And has this policy been established?
Even though there is no variable pricing right now, the MetroCard technology (including the potential future addition of exit swipe readers) renders the imposition of this sort of outer-borough tax well within the range of possibility.
The elimination of the two fare zones makes up for it, in the unlikely event that such readers are installed.
All arguments asserting the "advantages" of the MetroCard over the tokens are bogus, and can easily be demolished.
You don't seem to be able to do so.
For example, some would have you believe that the MetroCard has the "advantage" of allowing for free transfers where none existed before. Nonsense. Transferablity among the buses and subways (or lack thereof) is 100% an adminitrative decision, and the bus-to-train or train-to-bus transfers which we now have (as well as the train-to-train transfers which we have never had but should have) could have easily been accomplished using tokens and paper transfers, as bus-to-bus transfers had always previously been handled.
Then YOU pay for the additional employees required to do this. Or wait in longer lines for me.
MetroCard apologists also claim that using the card gives the rider the "advantage" of getting an extra ride for every 10-ride purchase. Please. As though tokens couldn't be sold in this manner, giving 11 tokens (or 12, or 13...) for the price of 10.
So the agent can rip open a pack and sell the tokens at face value and pocket the difference.
Additionally, from a wider socio-political perspective, the whole MetroCard technology -- including the presence of those vending monstrosities
As opposed to those manned monstrosities that take up more space and have longer lines. And don't accept credit or ATM cards
is a nightmare, destroying good jobs
They can get new jobs that our society can use.
and enabling nefarious police practices such as the tracking of individuals.
I didn't know you told the MTA your name when you bought a card.
In short, the MetroCard stinks. There was nothing wrong with the tokens, and no need whatsoever to replace them.
There's no need for quick free transfers, eliminating lines for students and the elderly/disabled, and making it easier to get fare and keep it longer without having heavy pockets or dealing with surly clerks whose jobs have been totally eliminated in the forward moving private sector. And UNLIMITED RIDES.
OK, I feel better now.
If you feel comfortable Ned, that's fine.
I personally hate the metrocard myself. Why? I just don't that's why. I guess I'm just a token purist. Also I had a little episode with the card on an express bus which soured me on the card big time.
But I do have to admit that the TA has made things very convenient with the metrocard. For example, I buy my wife's metrocard at the vending machine with AMEX. Can't do that at the booth and if you could, the lines at some stations could get a little nasty. And since she uses the 30 day card, I only have to pay once for the entire month which is in my opinion the best thing about the card.
But when I use the express bus, I only use tokens.
I'm always worried that a friend and I will take the subway or local bus, swipe twice, get 2 transfers, but I will go on to the express bus and he will go elsewhere and I will get charged 2 step-ups. Other than that, I love the Metrocard, if only for its transfers (come on, to go from Queens to SI on all express bus costs $6 in tokens, but only $3 for MC).
[Also I had a little episode with the card on an express bus which soured me on the card big time.]
I'm curious to know the details ... you can e-mail me directly if you would prefer not to put it up for all to see.
Mr t__:^)
#1 the reason why it is used because it speeds up the catching ur train every morning, never have to wait in line all the time and to stop the two fairzone business. and don't even say that the card swiper can't read it properly because they perfected it.
#2 it maybe flimsy but, it still is a good use. tokens do get damaged. i'm proof positive for i had about fifty warped, bent and scratched tokens every time i recieved them.
#3 u can loose a token as well as a metrocard. most like u'll lose the token because its smaller.
#4 to provent damage of the Metrocard. the Metrocard holder was invented. ever heard of it?
#5 not every vendor in this city takes them as currency. Its a kind of bartyr, which that currency system is Eons passe.
the only thing i can say bad about the card is that they pollute more than they help. New yorkers don't care about cleanliness ( i guess their ancestors are pigs except for me because i don't litter) and pitch their cards anywhere they please when they are done. and the single ride is utterly stupid. thats a paper token that lasts only two hours. thats so wack. eventually. the token will not be phased out.
#6 who cares if an outside company is dealing with the turnstiles. as long as they are able to serve passengers.
i guess their ancestors are pigs except for me because i don't litter
It's time for this antiswinitism to stop. Here in our swinciety, whenever someone is dirty, we call him a filthy human.
In my rush to deride your antiswinite stance, I forgot to actually respond to the substance of your post:
thats a paper token that lasts only two hours. thats so wack. eventually. the token will not be phased out.
The token will certainly be phased out.
The SingleRide is not whack, paper cards are cheaper, and the MTA is doing the right thing by not making single riders waste a card. The token was recyclable. By making it last two hours, they're discouraging stockpiling and forcing people to go with a single plastic card for that. I disagree with that position, but the two hour limit is an administrative decision, it can be changed.
The token will be gone with the next fare hike. There aren't as many people who actually care. The minority will be vocal however and you can certainly expect the Professional Complainers Society (Straphangers) to support the negligible amount of people who still stubbornly cling to the metal slices.
Ferdinand, Bet you didn't think you would get such a responce ?
I enjoyed reading ALL the replys & hope that certain folks at the TA & Cubics also did the same.
Mr t__:^)
I didn't.
That "Pork: The Other White Meat" needs to calm down!
Stop it I'm getting hungry!
I'm not. I'll take some beef any day.
I'd like a seafood dinner myself.
Thank you,
The Piggo handle derives from my love of pigs (aside from our son, my introduction to what wonderful, cute, and loveable animals pigs are was about the only positive to come out of my marriage. My ex-wife loved pigs and actually at one time had a pet pot bellied pig).
I wish I had it in me to become a vegitarian, but at least I do not any pork products of any kind.
That's nice. ;-)
Personally, it's hard to let go from meat, but it's necessary IMO, putting animal rights aside.
Getting proteins while being a vegitarian is no easy task. You eat all the time.
For a juicy 12-oz grilled filet mignon with a fresh tomato, lettuce salad with vinagrette dressing, and a hearty helping of thick steak fries or a serving of hot, fresh mashed potatoes with butter and garlic, along with crisp steamed green beans and asparagus; to be followed by your choice of diuble-chocolate fudge custard cake with cherry sauce and drizzled with chocolate shavings, or a cheddar and beer cheesecake with frosted grapes on top...
:0)
Did I mention the filet is broiled in butter?
My God, oh the humanity! If I wasn't hungry before......
Oh well, it doesn't even come CLOSE to kosher, so I'm not tempted to break the fast :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Metrocard usage will NEVER be at 100 percent, especially off peak on Queens Surface and other lines, where even the 10% discount is matched and even beaten by the private line .50 cent discount.
That discount is useless. They might as well discontinue it since the people who use Metrocard continues to grow considerably. I see less and less people everyday use change. It's such a hassle to remember when it's off-peak and when's it's peak. It's so retarded.
Peak is 6am to 10am and from 3pm to 7 pm. Rush hour.
I kinda knew that...;-)
But it's so easy to forget something like that, with a New York City state of mind. The discount still is uesless, IMO.
If you are only using buses, no it is not useless.
I also tell customers at work it is a good way to use the gold dollar coins. Buses can take them and they have to. It's money. Better than getting change of a dollar bill.
That makes no sense. When I was talking about the discount, I was referring to how the discount was when it came to the majority of passengers today using Metrocard as opposed to change.
I was making no reference whatsoever to bus-only passengers. To be true, this policy is only initialized by the private lines in Queens and a dumb one at that. Many poeple I know often lose money when it's the extra .50 is paid via Metrocard. The private lines should follow suit with the MTA and have it $1.50 all the time. I also have no idea what happens to all of that racked money but I assume it goes into the pockets of the private lines.....Bad.
A few of those buses go into Manhattan, and one goes into the Bronx as well. The QBx1 is popular with Bronx Riders to Co Op City and also has the 1.00 weekend fare (change only)
Seniors only pay 0.50, what's wrong with off peak fares? This has no effect on MTA and their buses.
I think the private lines get paid more with cash, I also heard that they get less(from the MTA) with pay per ride metrocards, less with transfers, and even less with unlimiteds. So if would make sense for them to get everyone to use cash, from a business standpoint.
What borough do you live in?
Queens.
>>> Many poeple I know often lose money when it's the extra .50 is paid via Metrocard. The private lines should follow suit with the MTA and have it $1.50 all the time. <<<
The theory being that misery loves company? That way not just a few will pay an extra 50˘, everyone will.
Tom
The privates are trying to lure customers away from the mta on off peak times. But they know that if a customer use metrocard they will pay full fare
If that was not the case they would raise the advertised off peak fare to $1.50
Evil thought. All the better reason for the MTA to aquire the Private Lines and end all of that evil, but that's another story! ;-)
It's really hard to do that since the majority of the Private lines run in such a limited way. Namely in Queens for the most part.
Hay 50 cents is 50 cents ! I will admit that the amount of cash keeps sliding down and down, but it's higher at the "private" bus lines because of the off-peek deals.
Let say you want to do a little shopping Sat. of Sun. I for one would keep that MetroCard in my pocket & put in cash, especially if I was going with the wife & kids.
[Additionally, from a wider socio-political perspective, the whole MetroCard technology -- including the presence of those vending monstrosities -- is a nightmare, destroying good jobs and enabling nefarious police practices such as the tracking of individuals.]
Thing 1: Please identify by name the specific individuals whose "good jobs" were "destroyed" by the MetroCard technology. Why have those individuals not sued to recover their jobs? Or is "destroyed" merely a euphemism for "failed to create more"?
Thing 2: Please specify an instance, other than an established criminal investigation, in which MetroCard information was used for tracking individuals. When I buy a card, my name is NOT on it; there is only a number. "They" can track card #0512226017 until it expires, but there is no way to my name to it.
You do realize that you're responding to a post that's over two years old, right?
Thing 2 is a fact. If you don't want to believe it, that's just fine with the TA security staff.
Please identify by name the specific individuals whose "good jobs" were "destroyed" by the MetroCard technology. Why have those individuals not sued to recover their jobs?
By name?? What's the difference what the individuals' names are? That is completely irrelevant to my point, which is that the MetroCard technology makes it possible to run the system with fewer token clerks. (It is also irrelevant whether this goal is achieved in one fell swoop or by attrition.)
This is no secret. In fact, it is seen as a good thing by people who apply the "business" model to something that clearly should be part of the public service.
Also, how can anyone sue to recover jobs? Again, according to the orthodox ideology under which we live, the elimination of jobs is a desirable goal -- never mind the larger picture.
Now, maybe if we had a far better legal structure, one explicitly designed to serve the interests of workers, then perhaps a job would be a right, and the deprivation of a job would be an actionable civil rights offense. But, that ain't this society.
Or is "destroyed" merely a euphemism for "failed to create more"?
It is not a euphemism at all; I fully intended "destroy" to include "fail to create more". Fundamentally, there is litte difference between the two. The "jobs" (meaning the tasks themselves) exist, whether or not the positions are created.
For instance, there exists a need for a means to hand out and redeem transfers. The dominant ideology will determine whether this task is assigned to an actual human worker, or whether it is done automatically. In an ideological climate where citizens are defined primarily as "consumers", and where workers' interests do not count at all (except where they count as a negative), it is clear that this function will be automated as soon as technologically possible.
In a better ideological climate, where citizens were defined primarily as workers, such tasks would be done by people. Not only would we have workers handling the transfers, we'd have many more fully-staffed 24-hour entrances to stations, and no OPTO.
Assaults on public-sector values and workers' interests were going on long before the MetroCard was invented. MetroCard technology merely enables yet another form of this ugly phenomenon.
Ferdinand Cesarano
>>> Assaults on public-sector values and workers' interests were going on long before the MetroCard was invented. <<<
Are you suggesting we would be better off if there was one C/R per subway car, or even one at every door in a subway car, and of course let bus drivers drive and bring back the C/R s on buses? Adding extra unnecessary jobs has to be paid for by someone, either through lower wages, higher fares or higher taxes. There is no free lunch.
Tom
And another example of rampant job destruction:
If AT&T had not implemented the automated long distance telephone switch in the 1950s, EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN could now have a job as a long distance operator. That is an act of job destruction that dwarfs anything the MTA has managed to achieve.
«If AT&T had not implemented the automated long distance telephone switch in the 1950s, EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN could now have a job as a long distance operator. »
Probably not, as the cost of phone service would be so high that you would think twice before getting one or placing a call.
Arti
"Probably not, as the cost of phone service would be so high that you would think twice before getting one or placing a call."
Exactly my point. Creation of low paying jobs that could be done equally well by technology just keeps the national standard of living lower.
«In a better ideological climate, where citizens were defined primarily as workers,»
Are you a communist by any chance?
Arti
Possibly he is a communist. Ideology aside, aren't many of us *both* workers *and* consumers? An ideology that values us only as consumers, and regards it as totally unimportant whether or not we can find any work, is just as silly as one that values us only as workers and doesn't care whether there is anything in the stores for us to buy. A major fault with the fashionable economics of the last twenty years (Reagan-Thatcherism, if you will) is that it forgets that the concumers are also workers, tries to reduce labour costs as much as it can by putting as many people out of work as possible and paying the rest as little as possible......and then wonders why it is hard to sell goods to those people, and why we have a recession!
Your second point is true only if you buy your Metrocard with cash. If you use a credit or debit card the electronic record of the transaction could theoretically be stored and later retrieved. But I have no idea whether the MTA would bother.
yeah but you cant use tokens to transfer from bus-subway or subway-bus like you can with Metrocard.unless your going somewhere that doesn't require transfers then a token is ok,but not when you gotta take like 3 or 4 buses or whatever to get to where you're going.
You need to chill, the MetroCard was the best thing MTA came up with so far, it's saves time and is more efficent for commuters, like me, I have a Full Fare Student Metrocard.
-AcelaExpress2005
Except you now have a limit, unlike before you had unlimited rides. Of course you can now ride for an extra 90 minutes and use both the train and the bus.
The limit is worth it. The old student pass system required a wait in the long booth line with every trip, and some station agents would stamp your pass, limiting you to two stations.
I would rather be limited to three rides, than be limited in WHERE I can go.
On buses you could go anywhere though, the train pass is different, since I never had it.
Two small observations:
1. Using token in lieu of currency is a violation of Federal Legal Tender Laws.
2. The loss of jobs issue: How do you feel about only allowing elevators with paid operators? How about eliminating phone books and only using 4ll to find a number? They did both of these things in Moscow until the fall of the Soviet regime.
"1. Using token in lieu of currency is a violation of Federal Legal Tender Laws."
No, it is not. It is a barter. I offer you a cream-filled pastry, you offer me the right to one ride on NYC Transit. Nothing wrong with that.
It would be fraudulent to misrepresent the token's value. It would be illegal to melt the token down and make a counterfeit $2 coin out of it.
>>> It is a barter. I offer you a cream-filled pastry, you offer me the right to one ride on NYC Transit. Nothing wrong with that. <<<
What you described is not the same as using a token in lieu of currency. That was once a problem with casino chips in Las Vegas, which at one time were accepted in many businesses including competing casinos at their face value. Exchanging a token for a cream filled pastry may be barter, but offering a $5.00 bill plus a token for something that costs $5.95, and expecting change is not barter, and is illegal.
Tom
1. Using token in lieu of currency is a violation of Federal Legal Tender Laws.
Maybe it is, I don't know. But I do know that it was absolutely standard procedure in the store that I worked in. Tokens were 75˘, and we were allowed to take them as payment, and to give them as change if people wanted them (and many did). I also know that mine was not the only store which did that; one could easily have spent a 50˘-, a 60˘-, or a 75˘-cent token anywhere in QV.
2. The loss of jobs issue: How do you feel about only allowing elevators with paid operators? How about eliminating phone books and only using 4ll to find a number? They did both of these things in Moscow until the fall of the Soviet regime.
Replacing workers with technology is not an all-or-nothing proposition. In certain cases it may actually be justified, when the automation brings a huge, undeniable benefit to society as a whole. For example, there is not much call for typesetters, because machines can perform that function (or its equivalent) many, many times more efficiently.
However, this is not so -- not nearly so -- in the case of the people who would give out and take transfers on the subway. There is no great gain to the riding public achieved by eliminating (or never creating) these positions, therefore it is not justified.
On top of that, never forget that the subway is public -- it's ours. It ought to function as a true public-sector agency, meaning that part of its legitimate role as a public entity in our City is to provide our people with good, steady employment.
And the same goes for your two examples from the Soviet Union. (Did you think you could red-bait me with that? Think again.) There is no good reason to eliminate elevator operators or telephone information operators without some great offsetting gain justifying it, especially not if they are employed in the public service.
It just goes to show that, long after the Soviet Union ceased to be a true proletarian state, they continued to do a few things right over there.
Ferdinand Cesarano
There is no great gain to the riding public achieved by eliminating (or never creating) these positions, therefore it is not justified.
Not true. There is a great gain to the riding public in eliminating these jobs. These jobs cost the TA money, money that is better spent on providing more service. Wouldn't you rather that the TA hire more T/Os and conductors in place of useless transfer distributors? In that case, the people are served much better because a much greater benefit is derived from those people that cannot be automated out of existence than from those who easily can.
On top of that, never forget that the subway is public -- it's ours. It ought to function as a true public-sector agency, meaning that part of its legitimate role as a public entity in our City is to provide our people with good, steady employment.
The purpose for the subway is to provide transportation for people, not jobs. The fact that it provides jobs is only a side effect because people are needed to work the infrastructure providing transportation. Many more jobs are created by having a safe, efficient and reliable transit system bringing people to their productive jobs than having a system create useless jobs. Isn't it much better to pay a person to do something good for society than just to pay him?
In fact, I'll say this right now: I'd rather pay people to sit around and do nothing on welfare than to have them do useless jobs. It's cheaper for the rest of society and at least gives the recipient free time to do as he pleases.
There is no good reason to eliminate elevator operators or telephone information operators without some great offsetting gain justifying it, especially not if they are employed in the public service.
That great offsetting gain is that the organization in question saves money, money that could be spent elsewhere to provide better services. In addition, the people once hired as elevator operators, now useless can certainly find jobs elsewhere, where their contribution to society is much better.
It just goes to show that, long after the Soviet Union ceased to be a true proletarian state, they continued to do a few things right over there.
The Soviet Union was never a true proletarian state. It was those few things that they did right that led to their ultimate downfall.
Good post, American Pig.
1. Using token in lieu of currency is a violation of Federal Legal Tender Laws.
Maybe it is, I don't know. But I do know that it was absolutely standard procedure in the store that I worked in. Tokens were 75˘, and we were allowed to take them as payment, and to give them as change if people wanted them (and many did). I also know that mine was not the only store which did that; one could easily have spent a 50˘-, a 60˘-, or a 75˘-cent token anywhere in QV.
2. The loss of jobs issue: How do you feel about only allowing elevators with paid operators? How about eliminating phone books and only using 4ll to find a number? They did both of these things in Moscow until the fall of the Soviet regime.
Replacing workers with technology is not an all-or-nothing proposition. In certain cases it may actually be justified, when the automation brings a huge, undeniable benefit to society as a whole. For example, there is not much call for typesetters, because machines can perform that function (or its equivalent) many, many times more efficiently.
However, this is not so -- not nearly so -- in the case of the people who would give out and take transfers on the subway. There is no great gain to the riding public achieved by eliminating (or never creating) these positions, therefore it is not justified.
On top of that, never forget that the subway is public -- it's ours. It ought to function as a true public-sector agency, meaning that part of its legitimate role as a public entity in our City is to provide our people with good, steady employment.
And the same goes for your two examples from the Soviet Union. (Did you think you could red-bait me with that? Think again.) There is no good reason to eliminate elevator operators or telephone information operators without some great offsetting gain justifying it, especially not if they are employed in the public service.
It just goes to show that, long after the Soviet Union ceased to be a true proletarian state, they continued to do a few things right over there.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Using a token in lieu of cash is NOT a violation of any law, as long as the exchange is agreed upon by both giver and recipient and the value of the token is considered in the calculation of any taxes due on the transaction (sales, income, etc.). However, a vendor is under no obligation to accept a token for payment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I cam across a strange token today - Its silver with a ting of gold, has the normal "Good for One Fare" on one side. On the other side, it has "Queensbridge Railway Co. Inc." with the picture of a trolly in the center, and two cresent shaped holes through on either side of the trolly.
When and why was this token in use?
Sounds like a token for the trolley across the Queensboro Bridge.
-Hank
Maybe the Queensborough Bridge trolley?
In any case, I also notice a bag of six of them for auction on eBay last night.
There were three "trolley" tokens issued under the name "Queensboro Bridge Railway Co., Inc." in the 40s, and one smaller one with a bus as part of the logo in the 70s.
Mr t__:^)
Could somebody tell me if the R38 ran on the Eastern Division lines?(I know that R32 ran on those lines between late 1960's and till the late 1980's before GOH)
No R38 has never worn an Eastern Division sign. The only BMT service I can remember seeing the R38 doing is many years ago on the "N".
There are 196 R38 left in service.
3990-3991 and 4000-4001 were wrecked and scrapped, both pairs were damaged in yard incidents - one at Coney Island and the other at 207th Street.
wayne
R38's were mainly assigned to Jamaica when they were delivered, and remained there for many years until the bulk were moved to the A line.
I remember seeing an occassional R38 in the early 80's on the M. The fromt destination sign had a baby blue background.
I remember this too. It was from 1981 to early 1982 when they were all over the Southern Div. (Coney Island based lines and the D). I actually first started seeing them first on the Brighton local in 8 car consists (proving it wasn't a D running local), and rode them in the reverse peak direction (proving it wasn't just a QB, but on the M also)(I was just learning all the car types, and at first thought iwas was a 42, but something looked different about it. It had the same type of side fluting and the sliding cab windows, but they were wider, and then when I finally got inside one, it was like the higher numbered 32's, and I realized this was a separate car class.)
Perhaps these were CI assigned cars running to Chambers only (IIRC, a few M's may have short turned there, as well as the R specials) so perhaps it didn't make it to the eastern div.)
P.S. many people don't remember or believe the M was full of R-32's as well around the same time.
At this time, I'd believe any car class ran anywhere. Before the GOH program began, cars were scattered everywhere with no set maintenance facility assigned to a specific car class.
I definately remember R32s being plentiful on the "M" as well as the "J" and the "L" trains during this time.
I will be there. I also will be wearing a E Train shirt and a F Train hat. So if u see some tall dark skinned guy with a F knit hat its me representin my Subtalk Handle and Favorite Subway line of all time. Hope to meet some Subtalkers there!
15:00: Just got out of school
15:05: At DeKalb Avenue train station
15:06-15:20: Deciding which train to take home, D,M,N,Q,R.
15:20: N Train arrives, choice decided. Take N Train to connect to D at Stillwell Avenue and ride to Brighton Beach.
15:21-15:22: Train trying to close doors.
15:23: After train leaves DeKalb Avenue, the train dumps right before taking the switch to the express tracks. Train blocks the B,M,N,R trains behind it. 3 possibilies: Idiot pulled cord, T/O tripped the WD Signal, T/O somehow dumped the train.
15:25: C/R says "Something on the tracks has activated the automatic braking system" "We will be moving in 5-10 minutes"
15:XX: C/R repeats announcement
15:XX: Train charges up and enters Pacific Street on the express tracks.
16:10: Train arrives at Stillwell Avenue-Coney Island.
16:12: Board D Train and go home to Brighton Beach.
17:28: Time now.
How was your day?
running on...
My day was fine Thursday, but I heard a story that a cable was broken on the Broad Street Line, causing all signals to go out on all 4 tracks in the height of the PM rush. The trips had to be tied down to operate trains. It would have been interesting to see, but not to operate a train like that.
Obviously a SEPTA rule. If that was the NYCTA, there would be NO service until the signals came back up.
I was on an N train at Court St. somewhere around 3:40 PM. The conductor said that a train ahead had its brakes in emergency. We waited about 10 minutes before we moved.
Wednesday morning, I’m waiting for the 7:20 @ Yonkers (7:14 Greystone train #716), and what comes around the curve but four Cosmopolitans (s8519-8518-8469-8468n). Even passengers who could care less what gets them to GCT as long as they aren’t too badly abused in the process were amused, and the conductor commented he hadn’t worked one of these cars in 10 years. I thought this was one of those oddities that occur every now and again, that railfans love so much, but I never did get around to posting it.
I didn’t have to go to work today until late afternoon, so when I looked out my window at 9:15, I couldn’t believe five more New Haven MUs had just left Yonkers (8:53 Tarrytown train #442?) heading south on the Hudson; a set of triplets leading another pair.
I know it’s not unusual for New Haven Bombardier coaches to show up on the Hudson; it’s probably an everyday occurrence. But New Haven MUs twice in three days? How long has this been going on?
This is probably because service on the Hudson is very near the maximum number of trains they have. If for some reason, they do not have all the trains they need, they borrow some from the New Haven.
I have a video from Railroad Video Enterprises, I think it is called "Tracking the Big Apple" and it shows various scenes on the rails in New York City. And on that video, there's some M-2 Cosmopolitans on the curves by Spuyten Duyvil/Marble Hill stations. that video was made over 10 years ago, so the practice isn't anything new.
Maybe they are doing some work on them at Croton-Harmon from time to time?
Where is the Coliseum Bus Depot?
When will it reopen?
How many CNG buses will be there? Will they be parked indoors? Refueled indoors?
How many hybrid buses (if any) will be there?
This question is best asked on BUSTALK, but, the coliseum depot is located near West Farms Square in The Bronx
Peace,
ANDEE
It's located on Devoe Street, right next to the entrance to the Sheridan Expressway and Cross Bronx Expressway. The Q44, NYBS's Parkchester, Morris Park Avenue Buses and Liberty Lines Southbound BxM11 (Pelham Parkway) buses pass right by it. You may also see the building from the #2 and 5 lines in between East 180th Street and Tremont Avenue.
Sometimes, the R142's show up at the strangest times, such as today.
I havent seen an R142 since last week on the 2 line. But yet again i see an R142 on the 6 line 3 days later.....that's strange...Too bad my classroom window isn't viewing the train tracks :(
anyways, can anyone give me a quick update to the disappearance of the R142's and their service?
I saw a 10 car set of 142A's testing on the Lexington Avenue Line at about 12:30 PM at Brooklyn Bridge. I also saw a 5 car set of 142's on the Test Track at 2:30 PM at Baychester Avenue. This was on Friday.
On Thursday, I saw a 10 car set of 142's running on the #2 line a Fulton Street at about 11:00 AM. None of these trains were in service.
They are testing these trains to death. I would only guess that they are ready to put these tin cans in service soon.
"they are testing these trains to death. I would only guess that they are ready to put these tin cans into service soon."
i hope so. i'm drooling to ride the bomb's and kaw's! i hope in two weeks. i heard they won't be on the road till mid november. i don't blame them for testing them to death. Both models from Kaw and Bomb were malfunctioning on first tests. after modifications they have to make sure these don't conk out either. also whatever shipment came in they have to make sure that they aren't lemons either. 13 billion each car. MTA cannot waste a dime! also, if u look at what happened to SEPTA. they never tested their cars and had to send them back to the vendor. MTA ain't havin' it!
$13 billion each car? More like $1.3 MILLION per car :-)
BTW, I rode the New York Division/ERA's Metro-North fantrip today. When it passed Yonkers, I looked at the Kawasaki plant and saw cars up to the low 7300s, plus 7209.
David
thanks for the correction. wow kawasaki is on a role. but whats up with bombardier's cars i've been trekking E-180th and 241'st and still not have seen any new shippments. whats going on. have u seen any?
Sometimes, the R142's show up at the strangest times, such as today.
I havent seen an R142 since last week on the 2 line. But yet again i see an R142 on the 6 line 3 days later. So are the tests done yet? because they seem to take FOREVER.
Too bad my classroom window isn't viewing the train tracks:(
anyways, can anyone give me a quick update to the disappearance of the R142's and their service?
goto:
http://www.msnbc.com/local/wnbc/1114529.asp
Just saw "911" by Wyclef Jean. During the video, there are a lot of subway scenes which includes:
1. A train crossing the Manny B.
2. F train leaving Smith-9.
3. Wyclef boarding a F train at Smith-9.
4. Wyclef on R40M/R42 entering what seems to be 7Av on the Culver line.
5. Finally arriving on a #1 train at 125St.
6. Various shots of the F train at night leaving and entering Smith-9 with the Manhattan "night lights" in the background.
Subways are a mainstay in rap videos.
4Train#1551Mike
When I first heard of Jay-Z, I got the mental picture of looking at the (J) and (Z) lines on the map. I also remember a video by a group from Philly called Da Youngstaz, who did the video for "Pass the Mic", on what looks like MNR or LIRR property, I couldn't tell at first but there were a whole lot of the M-series MU's that were in much of the backgrounds in that video. One more thing I remember is the Brand Nubian video, "Punks Jump Up to get Beat Down", they were chillin' in an R62 on the (1) train, and (I might be wrong on the station name) they show a scene in the video where the camera is on the overpass, and there's a (1) train of R-62's arriving at Van Courtlandt Park-242 st. station. (not a video but) Mobb Deep's CD cover for "The Infamous" is abord MTA-NYCT, not sure which train. Diamond & the Psychotic Neurotics' album, Stunts, Blunts and Hip-Hop had a little skit called "Last car of the (2) train" where they busted on each other, one of the busts was "Ya mama's so fat I was (expletive) her and she opened her eyes and I thought the train was coming!" and another memory from a one-hit wonder group, The FamLeee..."I got a car, the last car on the (E) train, I'm not jokin, all you need is a token, to get to my crib and watch the boots start strokin'..."
Never thinkin I would ever have a purpose for remembering this stuff (especially when you're a little tore up) but here is...
Peace,
Big D
I remember the Brand Nubian video. It was at 168St.
Train#1411Mike
When I first heard of Jay-Z, I got the mental picture of looking at the (J) and (Z) lines on the map. I also remember a video by a group from Philly called Da Youngstaz, who did the video for "Pass the Mic", on what looks like MNR or LIRR property, I couldn't tell at first but there were a whole lot of the M-series MU's that were in much of the backgrounds in that video. One more thing I remember is the Brand Nubian video, "Punks Jump Up to get Beat Down", they were chillin' in an R62 on the (1) train, and (I might be wrong on the station name) they show a scene in the video where the camera is on the overpass, and there's a (1) train of R-62's arriving at Van Courtlandt Park-242 st. station. (not a video but) Mobb Deep's CD cover for "The Infamous" is abord MTA-NYCT, not sure which train. Diamond & the Psychotic Neurotics' album, Stunts, Blunts and Hip-Hop had a little skit called "Last car of the (2) train" where they busted on each other, one of the busts was "Ya mama's so fat I was (expletive) her and she opened her eyes and I thought the train was coming!" and another memory from a one-hit wonder group, The FamLee..."I got a car, the last car on the (E) train, I'm not jokin, all you need is a token, to get to my crib and watch the boots start strokin'..."
Never thinkin I would ever have a purpose for remembering this stuff (especially when you're a little tore up) but here is...
Peace,
Big D
Jay-Z is from Marcy Projects. G train to Myrtle-Willoughby. As for Mobb Deep, inside their album cover, there is a picture of the group inside of a R68 Q train with the Queensbridge sign in the background. They are from Queensbridge projects which sits atop the 21St-QB station.
Train#1590Mike
There was a 12" single about a ride on the #1 line by a group called the Interborough Rhythm Team; the title was "Watch the Closing Doors". It's actually a pretty good description of the ride. Anyone remember that?
--Mark
Yeah, Mark. I seemed to remember that song. Didn't it come out about ten years or so ago?
I also seemed to recall that the Jazz vocal group "Manhattan Transfer" (famous for their "Twilight Zone" tone) did a song about the subways, but I could be wrong.
BMTman
How could one forget that smash hit song called "Here come the hotstepper" about 3 years ago by some guy with dreadlocks who did'nt last long, with all those subway scenes of the J/Z trains at Eastern Pkwy.
Well I forgot the artist anyway.
Ini Kamoze, 1995. Such a travesty, what he did to "Land of 1,000 Dances."
So, can anyone confirm or deny if Jay-Z's middle initial is M?
Ini Kamaze(sp?). And he did it at Myrtle Ave. There was a shot of track workers on the el waving to the camera. Also plenty of shots of the J and M trains entering and leaving Myrtle Ave.
Train#1390Mike
Hey, SubBus, maybe someone should go and compile a video made out of all of the Rap videos with scenes of the subway system. I'd be interested in looking at that, just to see where everything was filmed.
Any ideas???
BMTman
In my search to find the exact font used on subway route bullets on maps, schedules and some signs, as well as the number boards, I did some calling, and after a couple of referrals beginning with Customer Service, I reached the department that prints the schedules. The head of that office was very friendly and helpful and told me that it was basically Helvetica, with a few custom changes made specifically for the MTA by an outside company he couldn't remember. He also didn't know the official name of the font, but it is unofficially called "Helvetica MTA". If you may recall, most characters are identical with Helvetica, but the notable differences are the 2 and R, which appear to be borrowed from Franklin Gothic. The J is sometimes FrGoth (on the older R-42 signs), but now is like Helvetica. The Q is similar to FrGoth, Verdana, Lucida Sans Typ, and Trebuchet, but none of them are exact. This may have been done (they changed it just enough) to avoid some sort of licensing or royalty fee or something. This is the "Corporate Look" MTA offices are to use, even though Helvetica and Arial may show up from time to time. (I've never seen the latter on any maps or signs.)
I just realized that Dave's "Q" bullet is the font I've been talking about. So now I can compare the MTA bullet with Dave's bullet to show what I'm talking about:
The MTA bullet (above) is Helvetica. So the questions is (to Dave) what font did you use for the bullet below?
Hmmm... all I know is that the font on the original R68A roll signs (and most other signs in the system) is Arial Bold. It is important to set bold. My roll sign, and number plate is Arial Bold. It looks pretty close to me.
running on...
No, I had been trying to tell you before that the "2" on the nuber boards (and on new signs) looks like this:
2
(Notice the straight edge on the bottom left).
If you can't get Franklin Gothic on your computer, try viewing in a computer that does have it.
Why don't you put your letters in GIFs and solve the problem.
And don't tell me that you don't have an editor. MS-PAINT can save to GIFs (although not well) and ACDSee is free.
How about Corel?
(Besides, didn't think it was worth making a gif page and link just for one post
Ah yes, I totally forgot about having to put it online, sorry.
But if you want people to see the fonts, then do that. Don't suggest they go to another computer (which won't have it either).
I recall the MTA paying big bucks for a consultant to design a logo a while back. The MTA occasionally feels the need to do something like that, since that's what private companies do. The MTA doesn't understand that things like that aren't what makes business successful, it what makes business good material for Dilbert.
Next time, they should hold a contest on Subtalk.
I didn't make them so I don't really know. I can't remember who did, anyone want to fess up?
-Dave
"The Yards" finally was released on Friday, October 20. The preview scenes I saw back in late June were the ONLY subway scenes in the entire movie!!!!! It showed in only ONE theater in southern California, and fortunately that was five minutes from home.
Those scenes included a view out the back of a #6 local as it exited the tunnel by Bruckner Blvd., as well as a scene of the movie's star riding the train. The REAL funny thing? Listen for the crossing bells as the train crosses over the Bronx River!!!!
The other scene depicting the subway in the movie was a still shot, with none of the film's actors in it, of the inside of a TA shop -- I'm going to guess Coney Island, as it showed a string of R32's next to some R62's. The "corporation" involved in the criminal dealings in the movie was "Electric Rail Corporation" supposedly based in Maspeth. In one of the scenes, in an office, James Caan (who plays the head of ERC) states that "ERC fixes or makes anything to do with the New York subway".
The other "subway" scenes? NONE!! NADA!! ZILCH!! NIL!!
Oh, and all the subway uniformed personnel had a patch that said "MCT" on it -- "Metropolitan Community Transit" was mentioned in the script.
There was a few scenes depicting a situation wherein the group of hoodlums going out to vandalize "subway" cars repaired by ERC's competitor so they'd lose future contracts -- but that scene turned out to be in the former LIRR yard A (Sunnyside) and the cars were a string of LIRR 2900-series P72's!!! The actors were supposedly vandalizing some transformers, but the actual movie action looked like they were lighting sparklers!!!! Visible in the dark background was an MP15AC's cab end.
Then there was another scene in which prospective contractors were to inspect some circuit boxes in a "subway" tunnel. That subway tunnel had under-running third rail. Guess where that was.....
The "Special Thanks to...." credits at the end of the movie included Amtrak, New York City Transit Authority, Long Island Railroad (sic), New York & Atlantic Railroad.
Thank You for the warning.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ay!!! They even got the agency name wrong! In 1994 "Metropolitan Transit Authority" "New York City Transit Authority" "Subway Transit" "Surface Transit" changed to "MTA" "NYC Transit" "Department of Subways" "Department of Buses" respectively. Ay!
running on...
All of the MTA agencies still retain their official names. They just don't use them publically.
Peace,
ANDEE
The reason for the name changes was probably because the story line puts the Transit Authority in a bad light. A film permit with the CTA here in Chicago will be vetoed in that instance.
With no film permit, there can be no name usage, no filming on property, etc, etc.
David Harrison
I'm surprised New York & Atlantic Railway got a plug.
They must have ran some equipment on the Bay Ridge Line for the film company or perhaps let them film somewhere on their property at Fresh Pond.
BMTman
In order to speed loading times(I did this step by step with Bustalk) The NYCTA GIFs have been moved to the link at the bottom of this post.
NYCTA Subway GIFs
HBLRT,NCS,PATH
Forgot to change the URLs
NYCTA GIFs
HBLRT,NCS,PATH
I just got my Absentee ballot and I noticed one of the special questions on the back had to do with transportation. It basically wants to create a constitutional ammendment to dedicate %100 of the gas tax proceeds to fund transportation.
On the face of it this sounds good because even in 99% of this new money is spent on roads at least some will trickle through to transit. However, a year or two ago the Governer wanted to use a 5 cent gas tax increase to but 1 million acres of open space. Not I have noticed out gas price rise in comparason with other states and I assume that the tax passed and we our buying open space. Is this some political ploy to stop the purchase of open space or have we bought the 1 million acres and they don't want other people raising the gas tax for pet projects? Is it a good thing to have the gas tax money able to be used for other projects? Will the environmental benifits from improved transit outweigh the value of more open space or will this money go from being used to protect open space to being used to PAVE open space. I have included a scan of the question below.
We need something like this in New York State. The revenue from transit fares, tolls, federal transportation aid and dedicated transporation taxes and sales taxes on transportation items is greater than spending on transportation spending in the state.
Does anybody know which of these type cars have R22 Storm door or what # of those cars have those storm doors? If any of you guys have pitures of those could you please post it on this matter I mean scan the photo and put it hear and I would appreciate that. thank you
All are R-26s, #7773 has one on each end, #7821 has one on the T/O end. Forgot the third. 7821 also has the older side windows and front rollsign from before 1979 (gray 5, yellow 6, pink 4, etc).
R-28 #7875.
-Stef
I saw a Macy's commercial with double decker trains at a station.
Also another station shot showed the name. Lo and behold it's the Sea Cliff station!!!
Movie crews sure do like it around here! Just the other week they were by the firehouse.
Greetings, all...
Those of you who are subscribed to Aaron Renn's weekly e-mail newsletter, The Weekly Breakdown, are aware that Aaron has discontinued the newsletter because of a change in jobs and schedule demands. I felt that something needed to continue to serve as a voice for the hapless Chicagoland commuter, so I decided to start my own WebBBS site (similar format as SubTalk) dedicated to Chicago transit issues in general and to serve as an advocate for improved mass transit in the city.
The forum uses a newer version of WebBBS than SubTalk, which allows users to subscribe to receive e-mail notification of new messages as well as to create user profiles. And unlike the Wapp Conference BBS or Yahoo! Clubs, no sign-in or subscription process is required to participate. Be sure to check it out and let me know what you think!
Here's the magic URL:
The Chicago Transit Forum
http://www.NthWard.com/transitforum
Keep in mind that there is no association between my forum and the Weekly Breakdown or any other site, and my forum is intended to compliment, not compete with, SubTalk and the other transit forums out there.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Dave, Good luck on your new board, Chicago and it's "L"/subway system are special to me.
There are going to be 2 subway cars painted in special colors just for the subway series. One car will be painted in the Yankees team colors on the IRT #4 train and one car will be painted in the Mets team colors on the IRT #7 train.
BMTJeff
10/21/2000
[There are going to be 2 subway cars painted in special colors just for the subway series. One car will be painted in the Yankees team colors on the IRT #4 train and one car will be painted in the Mets team colors on the IRT #7 train.]
I read about this in the paper the other day. Is this based on fact or rumor? With the first game getting underway, is there time to patch rust and paint these cars in time for the opening game?
Anybody know something concrete, let us know !
Bill "Newkirk"
Straight From Jay St....
Leaving brooklyn bridge at 6:03 PM and running light to 14th St. R142's wrapped in Mets and Yankees images (like the wrap used on buses). At 42nd St. The governor will be boarding.
I will be photographing it
-Harry
I passed East 180th St Yard, southbound just a little while ago, and noticed that R-142As 7261-70 were sitting outside of the building, with electronic signage for "WORLD SERIES SPECIAL". I did not notice anything special on the sides. This could be the train for the Governor and others. There's only supposed to be one R-142A train on the 4? On a related note, a Kawasaki R-62 Train was in the shed at 180th Street for reasons unbeknownst to me. I have to wonder why it was there.
Whatever the case maybe, I'll be checking from my apartment window tonight for that 142A train....
-Stef
If I could have had a camera and been prepared for this moment, that would have been great. Bombardier R-142s 6311-20 just passed southbound about 10 mins ago, before this writing. They are signed up for the 4, World Series Special. The sides of the car have the team logos, with the writing, "Subway Series 2000". The ends of the train are incredible! Yankee pinstripes are one end, and the Mets pinstripes are on the other. Wow! Only the LCD and Train Operator's Cab Window are unobstructed. This is something to remember....
-Stef
A second train set has just come down from East 180th Street Yard, consisting of Kawasaki R-62s from the 4. My question has been answered about the 62s at 180th St Yard. The train will operate between Woodlawn and Bowling Green. Not as special as the previous train, but it does have Yankees and Mets team logos on the sides. Cars are 1411-15 and 1596-1600.
-Stef
To everyone:
If anyone gets a picture of this train please lat me know because I would like to have a picture of it.
BMTJeff
Pictures in previous message just left by me!
Trevor Logan
Hey trev!
its a cool pic, u should post it on ur website under Bombardier R-142(thats what it is. i can distinct them) however, i am dissapointed they used it for such an event. (not a sports fan)
10/21/2000
Front "wrap" sort of reminds you of the Scarborough (Canada) people mover. Only the T/O window, headlights, marker lights and LCD sign exposed.
The "wrap" even covers the railfan window, Salaam would highly disapprove !
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS !
did they win? who cares what salaami thinks. besides, its only for that one day/night.
did they win?(mets) who cares what salaami thinks. besides, its only for that one day/night.
10/21/2000
[did they win?(mets) who cares what salaami thinks. besides, its only for that one day/night.]
Top of the p9th, Mets 3 - Yanks 2.....2 out as I type this....11:28PM
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS !!
no doubt!
Post it up here ASAP! I can't wait to see it!
My bad it is 7:03 PM not 6:03 PM leaving BB.
10/21/2000
I RODE IT !!!
Boarded the special at Grand Central at about 7:20PM. Boarded car #6317. Only the fronts are wrapped, some white broad stripes covering the speaker proclaiming World series Special. Yankees and Mets logos on the sides. Front LED sign shown diamond 4. Air conditioner cranking, fine by me! Train emptied at 161st St. Man with white shirt (TA employee?) shouting to game attendees "you won't need a token when you enter, free rides"! Crowd cheered as expected.
Now if this excitement is taking place on the #4 for the World Series, I wonder what's in store for the #7 line ? Please, don't wrap any Low-V's !!
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS !!
Yeah. Wouldn't that be a scary thought. And they're supposed to wrap/paint cars on the 7? I wonder what that's gonna be like.
The 6311-20 set returned to East 180th St Yard this evening. Train passed northbound in the vicinity of Jackson Av at 10 mins to 9.
-Stef
Hey, Stef. Maybe the NYCT has plans of commandeering 6688 from Branford, hauling her to Flushing, and putting a wrap on her for Subway Series duty!
Just a thought...;-)
BMTman
We could do that ourselves, and run the car in shuttle service to and from Short Beach during the series. Do you think our infamous project leader would mind? We would have to change the signage too (from diamond 5 to diamond 7).
-Stef
Not a bad idea. How are we going to get the paint job done, without the proper funds? ;-)
BMTman
LOL . . . give it a "wrap"
Peace,
ANDEE
According to the news, all of the rides after the games are free from the stadium stops only. Tonight it will be YS. Tues-Thurs, it will be Shea Stadium.
Train#1536Mike
Bill, I posted this information two days ago. The info I got was from the NYCT PR department. And I posted it here first.
BMTman
Hello Everyone,
Almost all of the spaces have been reserved for the tour next Sunday. If you are interested in going, Please mail me to reserve a spot.
Due to limited spaces, This tour is for Registered SubTalk users only. When reserving a space, Please include your full name and SubTalk handle in the E-mail.
-Mark
The tour will be on Sunday, October 29, 2000
Exact time and Meeting place will be sent to those reserved by E-mail.
How did this service operate? Was Far Rockaway treated as a regular stop or as a terminal station? Anybody with info please respond.
BM34x
Service to the best of my knowledge operated, nights from Euclid Av to Rockaway Park, to Far Rockaway, and back to Euclid Av. It was designated the H Train.
-Stef
Note that there is a connecting track between the Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway Terminals. Trains travel from Rock Pk to Far Rockaway using this track. After Beach 90th St on the Rock Pk section, the next stop would be Beach 67th St on the Far Rock Section.
-Stef
That track is part of what is known as "Hammel's Wye."
That's right. Track is still used for GO's and movements to/from Rockaway Park Yard.
-Stef
There's a picture of subway tracks taken from a train on the F6 track (that's the official name for the track connecting the two sides of the Rockaways. TP6
Personal note: a rare Saturday appearance by me.
The Round Robin operated south to Rockaway Park, changed ends to go to Far Rockaway, then changed ends again to return to Euclid Avenue.
The few times I rode this service it was arranged so that in- and -outbound trains were timed to connect at Beach 90th and Beach 67th, so that riders didn't have to go through the whole round robin to get to their destinations.
Has anyone else ending up with a $71 fine and a load of fare inspector harassment after getting confused about the very confusing ticketing scheme on the Hudson-Bergen light rail line? This system is ridiculous.
What's confusing about
1. Buy a ticket at the machine
2. Stamp it in the machine before boarding
3. It's good till the time stamped (90 minutes I think)
It seems to me the procedure is well-signed at the station ticketing machines.
Is it possible to make a weekly newsletter for this website?
It'll be cool, it'll keep you updated on The service of the trains, and it could have a poll!
Think about it!
I think Larry Littlefield has alreay mentioned this yesterday.
Weekly newsletter!?
We already get a hearty, steel-backed
DAILY newsletter just by visiting this
here board.... and that's well enough.
Is there anyone out there who knows a good book or good source on the web for subway and PATH and railroad frequencies? I have most of the frequencies, but where can I get the CTCSS tones? Does PATH use them? Thanks.
I can't remember who it was, but I read a posting which someone said in that traveling from East NY to Downtown Manhattan is a lot faster on the A Train then it would be on the J or Z Train. Knowing the system like I do for an out of state resident, I would agree. The so called J and Z skip stop service seems somewhat weird to me and I don't quite understand it. What I think would be nice to improve rush hour service on the line would be the following; I believe the line still has three tracks running from Marcy Ave to Broadway East NY. Why not have the M Train run express(AM to Manhattan/PM from Manhattan)between Marcy Ave and Mrytle Ave. Also have the J Train run express(AM to Manhattan/PM from Manhattan)between Marcy Ave, Mrytle Ave and Broadway East NY. And have the Z Train as the local. In addition I believe from Broadway East NY to 121 St the elevated track structure still has space for a center track. Why not build one and have the same type of service like I suggested west of Broadway East NY. All you J Train lovers please tell me what you think of this.
How would the infrastructure improvements/additions be paid for? Will the ridership increase after these changes are made so that they can be paid for? Or will there be a general fare increase over the whole system. Or should we have selective fare increases (made easier by the card technology) just for riders entering at the affected stations on the lines in question?
You can't run the Z local past Eastern Parkway and the J express. It would anger those people who use the Z only stations east of ENY. And the island platforms along Fulton St preclude the installation of a middle express track, as do all those structures built between the tracks along JAmaica Ave. for the new signal system.
Well my idea of revised express service seemed nice, but I wasn't aware of the center island station platforms over Fulton St and Jamaica Ave. Also as it was said it would take a lot of money and where would it all come from?
I agree with most of your reasonings, but I do have to point out that before the creation of the "Z" line that local stations between Bway Jnctn/Eastrn Pkwy and Myrtle Ave were served by the "14" Bklyn Bway Local during rush hours peak direction, and later by the "K" 6th Ave-Bklyn-Bway-Jamaica Local. The "15" Jamaica Local became the "15" Jamaica Express in peak direction during rush hours and did not stop at Marcy Ave, so it was EXP Essex St to Myrtle Ave, making it a one stop ride to Bway Jnctn/Eastrn Pkwy. Post 1967, of course came the corresponding change to the "J" and "QJ". I remember that it was a slow ride across the bridge, though; especially compared to the Manhattan Bridge trains, and ANY train thru a tunnel.
I have wondered if the old "K" train was to be brought back with the change being running EXP just as the "J" if it would be a possible source of competiton with the "E/F/W" and outer "A/C" lines which seem to be bursting at the seams. Problem would be WHAT would service stations between Myrtle and BJ/EP.
One of the advantages of some modern ticketing systems is that they can give a data dump of the O/D - origin/Destination of the user; which would allow tailoring of services to the needs of the majority of the users; or give a real time indication of who is going to where from where at any given time of day. Of course, this means you have to use your card/ticket on entry AND EXIT.
You're correct about the 14/15 skip stop service in the 1950's. However, that entire plan was flawed and it punished those who used 14-only stops by forcing them to go local all the way into Manhattan after Eastern Parkway. Bad ideas do not need to be resurrected.
The current plan works just fine.
Well I wouldn't build anything new but if I was the J/M/Z line superintendent(and who knows, maybe in 10-12 years I will), this is what I would do:
J-Local at all times. Weekend relay eliminated at Chambers Street so as to possibly cut one train out per hour without increasing headway.
M-No changes in service.
Z-Rush Hours only. Z service hours would be extended from 6:30am-8:45 am and 4pm-6:30pm. Express Marcy Av-Eastern Pkwy in peak direction.
Skip-stop service would be eliminated and a study would be undertaken to consider permanent closing of the Bowery station. In the event that permanent closing is ruled out, I would suggest that the Bowery station's hours be reduced to 6am-9pm Monday-Friday only.
Overnight J/M service would be reduced to 30 minute intervals due to lack of patronage and all late night and weekend M trains would be 4 cars.
30 minute headways on the J late at night are unnacceptable. I worked the swing shift for 2 years, and the J line had plenety of patronage at 1 AM.
As for expanding Z service, I'd say it's unnecessary at this time.
The ridership on the J line does not warrant 20 minute headways having worked late evening hours on the J line for the past 6 years. The average late night train now carries on average about 150 people(9% of capacity) at Eastern Pkwy which is the main Brooklyn hub of the J line. The J line is a known money loser for the TA so reducing service would cut mileage on cars and labor costs.
Expanding and changing Z service would be an experiment to offset skip-stop service which does'nt work.
As a late-nite J rider, I can attest that 30 minute headways are unfair, unacceptable, and completely unwarraned. Shorter trains might be justified, but not a 33% service reduction.
The J line runs at a much higher capacity than 9% after midnight to about 2 AM, and then from 4 to 5 AM. Longer headways also add to waits at deserted stations, which increases the likleyhood of crime.
The current skip-stop system works fine. It was never designed to speed service into Manhattan (which it does by about 3 minutes), but it was designed to split up rush hour crowds.
Love it! Also, make the M the only train to serve Bowery on weekdays (that's how its supposed to be, but the TA seems to have "forgotten."
The Bowery has seen it's usage go up in recent years. No need to kill this upswing by having J trains skip it.
While I used to visit my mother's family in East New York, I watched a large crane install a ramp between the Eastern Parkway and Alabama Ave. stations on the (now) "J" and "Z" lines. One day, in the late 1960's, the crane disappeared, but "Ronan's ramp to nowhere", still remained. It was supposed to be part of an express track above the present service along Fulton Street, from Alabama Ave. to Crescent Street, where another ramp would connect it to the wider and newer structure along Jamaica Ave. Too bad it was never completed. But I did enjoy the express ride on the #15 between Eastern Parkway and the Willy B. If anyone has info on "Ronan's ramp", I like to hear about it- new news or old news. My relatives used to get the "LONG ISLAND PRESS" daily, but they could find nothing about the construction abandonment.
ELKEEPER
That ramp is a whole lot older than from the 1960s; if I'm not mistaken it was there already in the early 1950s. I think you saw the crane doing something other than installing the ramp.
That ramp dates to 1917, IIRC. A flyover express track down Fulton St. was planned with the Jamaica Ave. extension.
I know that the ramp was there in the 1940's, and it looked old then.
When did it get the name Ronan's Ramp?
Probably named after William J. Ronan, former MTA Chairman.
But the ramp was built in 1917 or thereabouts!
It seems to me that the only feasible way of speeding service from eastern Queens to downtown via the Jamaica/Broadway line is to bring back the K service, from Eastern Parkway to midtown. With the J, K, M, and Z all having to share the single track on the Williamsburg Bridge, this would mean 8 minutes between trains. Would one train (alternate J and Z) from Jamaica every 4 minutes (instead of every 3) be a tragedy? Likewise, would one train every 8 minutes at the skip-stops and M line be tragic? With the K, the J and Z could go express from Eastern Parkway to Essex Street, and the M could go express from Myrtle to Marcy. like the QJ and the M of the old days. The K, as I see it, should run as an 8th Av. local (instead of 6th Av. local), to 168th St.--Washington Heights.
Current service has 8 J, M and Z trains per hour during the peak rush hours. I'm not sure another route can be squeezed onto the Willy B without one line being removed.
Reviving the K line is really out of the question. It failed before, there really isn't any northern terminal for the route, and curent service plans preclude any additional 6th Ave. service.
J/Z service is fine. There really is no need to completely re-arrange service to accomodate a one-seat ride to midtown.
The express track switches have been moved from the west end of Marcy Ave to the east end. Marcy almost has to be a stop for all trains now!
Why was this done? On my 1958 map, Marcy Ave. is a local stop. Did ridership justify the expense of installing new switches?
The switches were moved a long time ago. I believe that I was told that the change took place about 1962. The old switches were removed, and the express track ends at a bumper block.
I think Marcy was reconfigured in 1960. There likely was still something around there that warranted a last "jumping off" point in Brooklyn. Rather makes sense, as it would have meant if you forgot to change at Myrtle, your next stop was Manhattan...vice versa for folks coming from Manhattan.
Subway Fan-
i had proposed a project for NYC to implement to relieve traffic along the Queens Blvd lines. This project here would definetly cost and get a lot of blackage from the NIMBY's but ti would definetly spped up traffic into the city and a one seat express ride during peak hours. I will try to retype it up. This would be done in a three phase project.
Phase 1:
Build a Third track between the Cypress Hills Station and the 121st Station. Also build a three track layout between Cypress and Alabama Ave. Stations along Jamaica Ave. Build new Station a Cypress which would be an express station. All stations on Fulton St, be built exactly on Jamaica Ave. Install new Signals to accomadate new track layout. This project should take about two-three years to complete.
Phase 2:
Service will end at Crescnet St and use the Three track layout to turn trains around to go back to Manhattan. Run Shuttle buses to and from Jamaica Parsona Archer to Crescent St. Sever the track connections at Cypress Hills and connect to the new three track layout on Jamaica Ave. Sever the connection at Alabama Ave and connect to the new Three track Layout also. This phase should take 1 year.
Phase 3:
Restoration of service and introducing new service as follows.
J: To Broad St. (Local in Brooklyn/Queens/Manhattan) Nassau St Lcl All Times
Z: To Broad St. (Express in Brooklyn/Queens/Manhattan) Nassau St Exp M-F Exp in Peak Direction Only.
K: To Bedford Park blvd via 8th Ave lcl/from Canarsie (Express in Brooklyn/Lcl in Manhattan) All times. Express between Eastern Parkway and Marcy Ave. Peak Direction.
This servie and new track layout would accomodate all riders. The cost of this project could be expensive, but in the long run advantages for overcrowding the Queens Blvd Lines.
Frank D -Queens Bld Exp.
So just how does this alleviate crowding on QB? Most of the riders on QB live where they feed into the line. And, since many go to midtown and downtown, how would a lower east side/8Av/Uptown/Bronx service benefit them?
Frankly, the Jamaica Av corridor is just too far from the Hillside/QB corridor to be of much help. A Jamaica/Midtown service might get some folks from the LIRR to take it instead of QB, but will do nothing about the mob scenes westward from Union Tpk.
So just how does this alleviate crowding on QB? Most of the riders on QB live where they feed into the line. And, since many go to midtown and downtown, how would a lower east side/8Av/Uptown/Bronx service benefit them?
Riders also get one at Parson's Archer as well from the buses. Neighborhoods like Laurelton, Valley Stream, Springfield Gardens, South Jamaiaca, and more utilize this station. Maybe not send the K train up 8th Ave, but send it up the 6th Ave line would be prudent. We are talking about instead of a 40-50min ride to Manhattan on the Z express, now we are talking around 30mins. People wanting to go to midtwon use the K serice and transfer at Broadway Junction.
Frankly, the Jamaica Av corridor is just too far from the Hillside/QB corridor to be of much help. A Jamaica/Midtown service might get some folks from the LIRR to take it instead of QB, but will do nothing about the mob scenes westward from Union Tpk.
Well by taking some of the rider east of Union Tpk, will have more space and seats on trains west of Union Tpk. The J and Z lines are crowded in the morning as well, but this whole skip stop service is annoying and works only half the time. Although this project would cost money and bring a lot of grief, to people, I think in the long run it would be beneficial.
Frank D - Queens Blvd Exp
You're still not reducing crowding on QB, and introducing a new bottleneck earlier on the line by making a transfer necessary for midtown access. The money would be better used to upgrade the signals on QB to increase TPH to fully exploit access to the 53/60/63 tubes and restoring express service east of Forest Hills.
I see your point but all tha is going to do is turn the Queens Blvd line into the lexington Ave line. Who would want that? Adding more trains is not always the solution...
Frank D
How would improving the signals and restoring service that previously ran turn QB into the Lex? It's certainly far less convoluted (as well as being far less costly or stressful) than your notion of replacing/realigning ROW structures to provide service that would serve considerably fewer riders.
Providing more seats on the mainline east of Union Tpk would distribute the load more evenly. Depending on where the "Hillside express" gets routed, it would also alleviate some of the crossover headaches at QP if they sent this train through 63 St to Bway instead of 6 Av. Riders from JH westward would have the R just like now. Folks east of JH wouldn't have to cross the platform and/or wait on the R. This would pretty much knock out the bottleneck at QP, which in turn means things should run faster and be less crowded.
Subway Cars of the 1950's Also Evoke Nostalgia is the title of an article in today’s Times that talks about nostalgia for the cars of the 1956 subway series, describing D’s and Low-V’s.
And accompanying that article is a most interesting drawing of subway tokens, with the Yankees and Mets emblems in the center replacing the Y cutout.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They have them in every newspaper starting on Wednesday
In fact Section C is now called Subway Series, using bullets (U, Y yellow, W, I green) and Sports[insert day of week here], covering all other sports is now a subset of C (like National is in A, not like Metro on Sunday or Friday's two weekends).
thanks bob for the link to randy kennedy's article on the 50's...
i can't believe that he didn't interview me again and take some more shots of the r9 cab...
When I have watched the Yankees play in the past, trains on the 4 back to Manhattan is infrequent and crowded. This is because trains don't wait for all passengers to board or wait until they are filled. This is also because there is only one or two employees, if any, on the platform directing riders to clear out the part of the platform where people come up from fare control. Now, they are doing this kind of thing for the World Series? What gives? Is the MTA so finacially troubled that they can't have trains on the middle track between Jerome Yard and 170th Street and then switch them over at the crossover south of 170th? They skip 167th and stop at 161st and pick up the fans and then run down into Manhattan? Some of these trains could run as locals to Brooklyn Bridge and others could go express to Bowling Green. Regular 4 trains would go to Utica Avenue in Brooklyn over the normal route. They could do the same thing on the D with trains going either to Brighton Beach via the CPW, 6th Avenue, and Brighton Expresses and/or to WTC via 8th Avenue Local. Regular D trains would do the normal run to Coney Island.
The TA isn't financially strapped for cash, they do utilize up to 7 trains held outside of Willets Point for baseball and even the US Open for extra service. Write the #4 line supt office and see what they tell you. Even the D line runs extra trains downstairs all the way to Stillwell for a Yankee game.
Wanna know why not??
Cuz' them Yawnkees just ain't worth the penny.
Once a Metropolitan.. forever a Met.
The No.4 Line does have 4 Extra trains during any given Yankee Game which runs from 161 St. Express to Bowling Green.
For the World Series there should be 8 Extra trains.
As for Platform Patrol there should be about 4 Conductors and a T.S.S to Dispatch trains.
So there are usually 4 extra trains on the 4, and 7 extra trains on the 7!
Amazing.
I've been trying to avoid responding to uninformed comments but yours warrents some response. My response is in no way a criticism of you, only your uninformed position.
Perhaps you should check your facts before you post incorrect statements. First of all, the #4, #7 and D lines all run extra service for every home game during the regular season, playoffs or world series. The #7 runs up to 7 or 8 trains while the D & 4 run 5-7 trains each during the regular season. For the World Series, the D train alone will run 7 extra trains. The 4 and 7 will add equivalent numbers of trains.
As far as your other statement is concerned, (because trains don't wait for all passengers to board or wait until they are filled) are you serious? If a conductor ewaited until every person boarded or until trains were completely filled, you'd neither be able to maintain a schedule nor provide service beyond the subject station.
I think he meant that conductors are pulling a 'Titanic'. The first few trains leave half empty, while the rest are jam packed.
To WMATAGMOAGH: It is not possible for them to wait for all trains to be reasonably full, there would be an unusually large gap in service followed by a drove of overcrowded trains. Plus, as Train Dude said, waiting for everyone to board would cause too much delay.
Having worked the platform at Yankee Stadium as a CR, I can tell you from experience: we try to get as many people on the train as possible. However, no one wants to use the last five cars of the 4 train, because "it's too far to walk". Then there are the fools who want to wait on the wrong side of the ten car marker, and then complain because the train doesn't pull up to the edge of the platform. Oh, and the ones who insist on squeezing in while the doors are closing.
I'm just glad I'm not working PMs this week!
It works in DC at MCI Center. Trains arrive at Gallery Place. The back is filled first (I head towards Shady Grove) but people move to the front because they are smarter than the average New Yorker and they are more cooperative. Then, when the next train is behind the one in the station or all 6 cars of the train are filled to capacity, they close up and leave. It works perfectly. Also, late at night when I've gone home from the Yankee games, no one is ever waiting to get on our train once we leave 161st.
It isn't that noticable. Also, regularity doesn't matter in this situation. No one boards these trains south of 161st at that time of night so those few passengers who do can deal with it. Also, you don't wait for every single passenger but a smart straphanger will go to the back of the trian instead of waiting for one that is empty enough stops where they are. I've been at Yankee Stadium and a train pulled in, not everyone was on, they left, and we waited AGAIN for a train (we had already waited at least 5 minutes for this one and waited at least 5 minutes again). Those few passengers getting on in Manhattan can deal with a little irregularity.
i went riding the rails today with ian from toronto... we finished about 4:30 this afternoon... i was heading to herald square to catch the d train, when i ran into caz dolowicz and frank correll on 42nd street... they were going over to grand central tower to keep an eye on things for the world series governor's special train...
caz still couldn't believe that they made mrs. jenkins trainmaster after his career was cut short by one of the hijackers... caz still felt that women had no place working in the towers, or for that matter working as motormen... running a railroad was a man's work...
around 7:15 the specially signed 142 came into the station... the press wanted to take pictures of the governor and the train crew... while they were all posing for pictures on the station platform, the doors on the 142 closed and the train charged up on its own... a couple of the supervisors heard an announcement on board the train that the next stop would be yankee stadium... one of them got on the radio and told command center to cut the power on the uptown express track...
when caz saw the power go off, he went into a rage... he started screaming all kinds of things that i can't repeat here... he got on the radio, and told the supervisors to get the train out of the station... he had a railroad to run, and he wasn't going to turn grand central into a movie set...
after about 5 minutes, everyone piled back on the train... it took denny doyle about 10 minutes to reprogram the computer so that the automated announcing system would be right... unfortunately, as he finished, everyone aboard the train heard a series of 5 gongs over the train's pa system... then there was an announcement that this was a fire drill, and all passengers must leave the train, and use the nearest stairway to reach the street...
when cazzie heard this, he went ballistic... whoever heard of fire drills in the subway?? when there was a fire in the old days, everyone stayed aboard the train and hoped for the best...he had a railroad to run and it couldn't grind to a halt just because of a little smoke and fire...
after this crisis was resolved, denny doyle found that the he could not operate from the head car...
he had to go 5 cars back and operate from the middle of the train... just as started to program the computer, the front 5 cars were cut from the train... the front end charged up and started to pull away from the rear half of the train...
by this point i felt that i had seen enough for one night, and i headed home so that i could report the evening's events...
Whatever you're on, please send me some as I would like to get blitzed myself.
everyone thinks that i need chemicals to think the way i do, or that i am influenced by the full moon...
zman and the rest of my detractors:
my humor and genius is all natural...
Oh, so you just lost your mind on your own valition? :)
10/21/2000
[Whatever you're on, please send me some as I would like to get blitzed myself]
zman179,
What do you expect from someone who has an R-9 motormans cab mockup in his guest bedroom ? However, those R-9 truck end tables is pushing it too far !!
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS !!
Did they topple over at South Ferry?
think I mighta stuck a foot out or something..
Here is the World Series R142 (Cars #6311-6320):
ENJOY!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
www.flxible.org
i can't believe they did such a thing! rediculous! it would be more interesting if it were in passenger service. oh well. i guess its to promote its new IRT cars, which is i guess a good move. it is cheaper advertising than putting it on tv.
I think it was in passenger service yesterday according to one of the pics and what I saw on NY1 news last night. It probably went up to 161St and then was stored on the express track. Anybody knows?
Train#1455Mike
Nope, I rode it all the way up to Woodlawn then it deadheaded back to 180th Yard!
Trevor Logan
Great pics Trevor! If they wrap the buses, then they should wrap the subways. Looking forward to seeing my R36s wrapped with the Mets on it on Tuesday!
Gary
That's the one!
Thanks for the shots. It should be noted that 10/21/00 is the first passenger run of 6311-20, which looked fabulous. No Mets Logo on the end (only on the sides)? I thought that they would have put that somewhere....
Did you see the R-62 Train with team logos?
-Stef
There will be a Special Mets themed train to Shea on Tuesday....Don't know if it will an 142 or not.....
It could be a Redbird....
-Stef
I'm sure it would be. Getting an R62 or R142 to the Flushing line would be difficult.
It'll be a dressed up Redbird (blue and orange) if my sources are correct.
Again, this is old news for SubTalk...
BMTman
Great shots, Trevor!
Looks like things changed since when I first got my info on the cars to be wrapped. Apparently, the NYCT wanted to push the R-142's, so they did them up instead of the 62's. I have yet to see the modified Redbirds, but I'm sure they were done in the same way (front-end wraps only).
Thanx!
BMTman
WAY COOL!!! Will they be removing the stripes after the Series?? Hope not....
The stripes are getting removed today or tomorrow, so that was the only day of service of them with the Yankee Pinstripes!
Trevor
Thank YOU...for the pictures, Mr Logan.
Peace,
ANDEE
Trevor, I would think that the Subway Series wrapped cars will stay in their dressed up condition till after the series is over.
BMTman
Well I know for a fact the R142 will not stay wrapped nor will run again for about a week or so.
As for the Redbird, that may stay wrapped!
Trevor Logan
I just had a thought that that R142(without the Subway series design) is probably a Sneak preview of the Future of the 4 trains.....think about it. What about the Mets version of the R142?
The Mets World Series Train will be a consist of R36s with that one R33S!
Trevor Logan
COOOL!!!! Maybe the 142's might go on the 4 line someday......
Its That Flxible Metro:
I've saved the pictures of the world series R-142 onto my computer.
Thank You
BMTJeff
Sure, No Problem, Enjoy!
Trevor Logan
Hey, did you get any sounds from the train? I would love to hear what it sounds like. :-)
Na, it's was no different that the R142 that was on the (2) Line, there was no automated announcements, a "live" conductor made the announcements which was:
"#4 Train to World Series and Woodlawn, The Next Stop is........"
"This is 161 Street-Yankee Stadium, Enjoy the World Series....The Next Stop is........"
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Great shots Trevor, thanks for sharing ! I too saved a copy for my personal use.
Mr t__:^)
I was in Oceanside at Davison and Long Beach road and noticed a sign that indicated the Oceanside Triangle was a stop for a trolley (c1900-1925).
This was stop 102 for a trolley that ran from the city line to Lynbrook, Oceanside, Baldwin, Freeport, and Hempstead.
So where did the trolley actually run? Are there any rails that remain?
I wonder where I could find more information on LI trollies.
i hope it stays that way. go mets (Note:even though i'm not a sports fan, i patronize because they represent queens.)
Um, you had better hope that the Mets win in extra innings or you will never hear the end of it.
thats why i'm not watching them and putting faith in them. i don't want to be a nervous wreck and because i'm really not a fan of any sport.
Sorry KHI, but the Yankees won in 12. Viscaino had the game winning hit, with a single to left.
Yanks in 4!!!!!!
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
More off-topic stuff that's addressed to an individual SubTalker.
David
Welcome to my killfile, David, Badge#714 0f the ***THOUGHT POLICE***
Sounds like a capital idea!!
AMEN
Normally I would agree. But it's the SUBWAY series. Gotta cut a little slack here.
Consider yourself lucky, Yankee fan. If Zeile's double was one inch higher, the Mets would have won the game.
Mets in six.
Coulda, Shouda, Woulda...YAWN
Spoken by someone who knows he got lucky, but can't admit it.
I told my wife when the 9th inning started that if Valentine brought in Benitez to pitch, the game was lost. The wonder is that the Yanks didn't end it in their half of the 9th. Benitez is a choker in playoffs. Face it, there are some pitchers you want out there at crunch time and those others you don't. Benetez' record of past failure tells you that Franco should have pitched the ninth, set up man be damned. And why didn't thechoker come inside once to O'Neill, who could hardly swing the bat?
Nah the only thing lucky around here was the Mets getting to the World Series this year. Mets thought they were all good and gonna win, and the Yanks put them in their places.
Yanks in 4...
(sorry to all those who are mets fans, but they just don't have a chance)
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
this line is the most hit with vandalism than the rest of the lines in the city. its serious. to make a point. ride the 7 line and look at the buildings around it. and also tour as many R-33wf's as possible and see left behind permanent sharpie (marker) shadows and scratches on windows.
Magic marker has become a real problem on LI Bus as well as the Stengal buses. I even saw 332 already marked up.
The only way to stop the vandals is to have strict punishment, such as a $1000 fine, 2 days in jail, and perhaps some other punishment Americans are afraid of, flogging.
Just look at Singapore's spotless subways!
It's a shame we are allowing our public transportation system to be continued to be defaced by vandals. Only in America can a few jerks ruin a transportation system.
I see that you have'nt been to Paris yet whose subways look worse than New York's.
o really? well i never been to paris of course and will not no time soon but thanks for letting me know.
London was pretty bad too.
But I think it got better than the 80s in both cities
Just look at Singapore's spotless subways!
That's what you get with human rights violations.
I think you've heard enough of my quote from Franklin by now.
No wonder America is hwai-lur! (out of order!)
What I see are quality of life rules you see as human rights violation.
Remember:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Also, it's nice that you finally respond to one of my messages critcal of your authoritarianism.
We have to start punishing the savages that do it. After the third offense, give them the death penalty. Or, let's be more reasonable. If you use magic marker, you will have to put in 300 hours of community service cleaning it. If you scratch glass, not only will you have to buy 500 dollars worth of new glass, but you'll have to put in 300 hours installing it. Notice how teenagers have a lot of trouble spelling their names, but they can write anything on a subway train. The future is doomed.
My site
That second idea (not death) is a great one. These low lifes shouldn't waste any more taxpayer money through incarceration, let them fix their damage.
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Obviously you failed to read my post of a week ago. I said that the R142's are high tech cars that can't be maintained in an old low tech almost ancient facility like Corona. Case in point: if an air conditioning unit has to be changed, Corona does not have the needed overhead crane, among many other maintance tasks. The cars would be out of service too long for work that could be done at Corona if the barn was modern.
i hope they extend it to other cars. they should think about putting them on exterior side windows too. vandals will scratch up the outside of windows too. plus they prevent have to wash markers off windows all the time. one thing bugs me though. if vandals notice the Mylar and peel it off to do their business.
Only solution is strict punishment. Punish the $#&@$%$&$& out of vandals and the subways will be spotless!
truueee truueee!!!!! applause. thats the best way. that will teach them that their tactics are meaningless to whats not their property. let them know that messing with MTA's property is like messing someones motha and talking about their motha. when the did what they did. they gonna get it!
They will learn NOTHING. They are idiots and will do it regardless. If one is flogged, it will do nothing to the others who continue vandalizing and do so many times before they are caught.
Trains weren't vandalized for many years when they had wicker seats, nor was there any graffiti or scratchiti. It has to do with the decline in respect for public property. Punishments were certainly not stiffer back then.
>>> If one is flogged, it will do nothing to the others who continue vandalizing <<<
I disagree, stronger penalties (a year in jail) and enforcement (i.e. undercover cops looking for vandals) would reduce the vandalism. But those with the political pull necessary to get this to happen are not subway riders, and as long as the extensive graffiti of the ‘70s does not return it will be below their radar screens.
Even many non railfan subway riders would probably not support stronger penalties for what they see as a minor annoyance, since the cost of incarceration is expensive, and they would argue that there are many more serious offenders for the existing jail space, and police have better things to do (pickpockets, muggers, platform pushers) than look for minor subway vandals.
Tom
The Subway Series R142's that ran tonight for the first time
It's not really a paint job but more like that plastic used to advertise on buses.
Find many 10 more pictures of this train at www.zdeno.com
The Other Side Of The Tracks- A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
-Harry
Simply AWESOME!
Fantastic! Thanks for the pictures.
Thank you! The pictures are outstanding! How did the R-142 perform
on the number 4 line?
Chuck Greene
Any shots of the Mets end of that train?
nope
There is no 'Mets End' to that train. The Mets cars will be on the 7. Oddly, when I heard that they were going to repaint a train for the subway series on each line, I figured they'd do Redbirds. Shocked to see them do the 142.
-Hank
Great shots Harry.
They look as good as when I saw the train in the 180 St yard earlier in the day (and me w/o a camera too).
What station was this one at, 59th Street?
It looks pretty good in that scheme. Maybe it oughtta be made permanent.
And the Mets / Yankees logos instead of the MTA "Pacman" logo ... that might be the start of a new revenue stream ... imagine your corporate logo outside of a NY subway train (NOT!)
--Mark
Harry, Nice collection of photos, thanks for sharing !
I saved one for my personal use, hope you don't mind.
BTW, Yesterday I sent our VP one of Trevor's and asked why only the trains got this special treatment ... he replied.
P.S. At this depot our drivers are encouraged to ware the hat of their choice for the duration of the subway series ... how about that ?
Mr t__:^)
Today's Camden Courier-Post (article and pic apparently not online) has an AP photo of the C/R peering out his window in car #6316 with Mets logo beneath the number, doors open. The caption states that the train was heading to Yankee Stadium.
An accompanying potpourri article (Gannett News Service) opens with a short piece stating that 3 Mets, infielders Matt Franco and Kurt Abbott and pitcher Rick Reed, chose to take the subway instead of the team bus. Franco boarded a #6 at 96th Street and changed to a #4 at 125th.
BTW, if the Mets had won this morning, there would have been 87 posts (23 from Sea Beach Fred) informing us.
>>> the Mets had won this morning, there would have been 87 posts (23 from Sea Beach Fred)informing us. <<<
You have to forgive the Mets fans. This is an unusual and painful experience for them. After the final two games at Shea Stadium they will need our support and understanding.
Tom
Daily News article on subway to game.
Has anyone seen the ads for "Subway Series" T-shirts being sold at, I think, Modell's? The car shown hs the front of an R-32 and the sides of an R-1/9 series car. The corrugated metal on the front and the side doors with small square windows at the top make an odd combination.
Check it out real careful, and you MIGHT find you are looking at the R-11 [or R-34,depending on your outlook on things]train that the TA ordered from Budd as an experiment back in the 1950's. It was an odd NON-stainless Budd product, as the TA still was believing in old-fashioned high-tensile steel at the time....so, it KINDA looks like an R-32 in front ,with regular old-fshioned double hung windows....
The roof line is R32 as is the storm door and the corrugation on the R11/R34 is slightly different. This is a case of the art department not doing their homework.
wayne
What was so odd about the "non-stainless steel" R-11 is that it WAS made of stainless steel!
David
The R11 was ordered and delivered in 1949, and IIRC had it's outside skin made from stainless steel.
I don't know who was behind grafting the image of an R-32 on the front of what should have been an R 1-9 series car. Strange to say the least.
That only applies to the 'current' white T-shirt. There is a 'sold out' black T with a generic subway car -- head on shot -- with the team logos at the bottom.
BMTman
This imaging of subway cars is just as interesting and exciting as the series is itself! I've bought about 8 shirts so far, plus two neat pins. One has two R16s on it, an orange stripe and a blue stripe. Stern's Dept store sells a shirt with R12 graphics.
So far Macy's and Modells has the R1-9/R32 hybrid. But there are also shirts with Japanese Bullet trains, Budd RDC's, BMT Standards, R68 and Redbirds, plus an assortment of non-descript type cars. Love it!
Where do they sell this stuff, I will be in NYC in 2 weeks and hope to get a couple T Shirts. Is it just Macy s and Modells in Manhatten
No. Some "street vendors" have a variety of stuff that may be different than what Macy's and Modell's have.
Check the street corners of Downtown Brooklyn, particularly Fulton Street.
BMTman
The QVC shopping channel is offering the R-32/IRT 'mix' tshirt [ADVANCE order that is...no shipping until November!!!!]If you callthe regualr number [800-345-1515] the op should be able to find it in the database for you....
This imaging of subway cars is just as interesting and exciting as the series is itself! I've bought about 8 shirts so far, plus two neat pins. One has two R16s on it, an orange stripe and a blue stripe. Stern's Dept store sells a shirt with R12 graphics.
So far Macy's and Modells has the R1-9/R32 hybrid. But there are also shirts with Japanese Bullet trains, Budd RDC's, BMT Standards, R68 and Redbirds, plus an assortment of non-descript type cars. Love it!
I saw one with 2 R110B's. So I guess every type hasit's own shirt now.
This imaging of subway cars is just as interesting and exciting as the series is itself! I've bought about 8 shirts so far, plus two neat pins. One has two R16s on it, an orange stripe and a blue stripe. Stern's Dept store sells a shirt with R12 graphics.
So far Macy's and Modells has the R1-9/R32 hybrid. But there are also shirts with Japanese Bullet trains, Budd RDC's, BMT Standards, R68 and Redbirds, plus an assortment of non-descript type cars. Love it!
Oops! Meant to update that last posting, not repeat it. I checked Stern's again. They have TWO shirts: one with 2 red R10/R12's. They look wide. The second shirt has a DEFINITE R10 on it. The R10 is in the original two tone scheme and appear to be at a platform.
Joe C
The first shirt is the one I got..Its DEFINITELY an R-10...four sets of doors.....
Not sure if this one has been mentioned yet; there's one up on e-Bay with what looks like an R-36WF signed "7-Mets" and an R-17 signed "4-Yankees," and a token in the background and on the reverse. Here's the pic.
This one looks terrific! Thanx for the pic. Too bad they chose a graffiti splattered R17. Is it only on E-bay?
Joe C.
That's the only place I've seen it, but I haven't been frequenting the sporting goods stores.
It kind of reminds me of a stainless steel version of the old BMT Green Hornet. Guess we could call it the Silver Hornet.
Does anybody know how the 7 will operate for the world series. Obviously they will have extra trains, but since the 7 train stops every 5 blocks, not only will they be overlycrowded but uncorfortable. I think they should abandon 7 express service the nights of the World Series, and have a 7 train every 7 minutes make all stops in Manhattan, then at QBP, then Shea Stadium. They could layup on the unused tracks past TS and then when they finished their Shea Stadium run, they could go to Corona and wait for the post game crowd.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
There will be express service to Shea anyway, as there is no need for special service. The 7 runs express to Flushing to 10 PM these days, and all 3 games at Shea start at 8:00 PM. The only question is, will the TA run special express service from Shea to Manhattan after the game?
Is anybody here has old subway maps between the years of 1967-1990 that they want to get rid of because I am interested in old subway maps if any of you guys want to get rid of some of your old subway map please email me and drop me a line of subway maps that you have and maybe he culd do an agreement. thank you
Subway maps of those years should not be too hard to find. However, those are relatively "recent" by system-wide standards.
What interests me are maps of pre-unification (before the creation of NYCTA). Now those are HARD to find or EXPENSE when you can find them.
BMTman
I own a 1958 map (a re-print bought in the transit museum in 1990), and I recently acquired a 1939 BMT World's fair map. I also bought a 1972 map on E-Bay recently. It's not that hard to find what you want.
BTW, I'm still looking to purchase a 1967 map showing the short lived NX/RJ/TT/JJ lines.
Those are all great maps, Chris. As a matter of fact I recently acquired a 1919 Rand McNally Street Guide to Brooklyn (it lists all of the then current trolley lines + all the Els that were running at that time).
I also have a '39 World's Fair map. Nice item.
BMTman
If you're looking for old subway maps, go to e-bay and type the search words "subway map" or "subway guide". They have loads of them.
Yesterday the NY Division of the Electric Railroaders Association held it's FL-9 fantrip. The locomotives Nos 2006 & 2024 pushed and pulled a consist of 5 Bombardier push-pull cars. The train left GCT at 8:15AM and proceeded up the Hudson line making photo stops at Poughkeepsie, New Hamburg and Scarborough. The train then returned to GCT for a 30 minute lunch stop. Following lunch, the train traveled up the Harlem line making photo stops at Botanical Garden, Crestwood and Wassaic. The trip between Brewster North and Wassaic was especially interesting since the right of way is single tracked and included a meet with a shuttle train coming south from Wassaic. The excursion train was routed to a siding using a manual throw switch to allow the southbound shuttle to proceed. The stretch between Brewster North and Wassaic is quite scenic especially this time of year with the foiliage at or near peak. It felt like we were traveling through Vermont. Despite the fact that locomotive #2024 had to be shut down due to low oil pressure,the remaining engine #2006 managed to keep the train running at track speed. The return to GCT included a trip through the wye at Mott Haven interlocking in order to turn the engines and have them facing north once we arrived at GCT. All in all another well run fantrip by the NY Division ERA.
10/22/2000
Yes, that was a very good trip indeed. Sorry that the turnout was very light. I guess you can say everybody had a window seat with room for more window seats.
Going from GCT to Poughkeepsie non stop was exciting as the views of the Hudson on the "Water Level Route". We passed Bannerman's Castle and always wondered what that island was all about. I remember back in the 60's a Daily News centerfold night shot of a fire that destroyed the castle. If anybody knows about it, let me know.
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS !!
Bill -
Try these:
Bannerman's Castle at Pollepel Island
Bannerman's Island Ruins
Bannerman's Island Shrouded in Mystery
Bannerman Island History
Modern Ruins
Bannerman Castle Trust
Bannerman's Island
There's more, this is just a taste!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I remember people in the old days (fifty years ago) referring to the island as Bannermans Arsenal! It's funny how the name has apparently changed over the years,
Well, Bannerman's Island was originally named Pollopel Island (or some variant of that spelling - I've seen it several different ways). Then Mr. Bannerman built his arsenal on the island and the names Bannerman's Arsenal and Bannerman's Island came into popular usage, with Bannerman's Island now being the official name of it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon,
Thanks so much for the links to all of the sites for Bannerman's Arsenal. I visited each of them and know a lot more about that mysterious island than I did as a kid passing it on the boat trip to Bear Mtn. It is a shame that the castle was gutted by that fire.
Karl B.
10/24/2000
Thanks for the Bannerman's Island links Mr.Mouse.
Regards,
Bill "Newkirk"
Since I've hooked up with this site, I see that there's a lot of attention and love for the subway lines that make up what I call the "Broadway El". I've always been intriqued by the Broadway El but my favorite is The D Train. I'm old school. 1970's, 1980's the line had car assignments of R32's, R40M's, R42's and R44's. During the week the D Train primarily ran as an express, through Manhattan and Brooklyn terminating at Brighten Beach and extending to Coney Island on off hours and weekends. The ride itself is pretty nice. From 125 St south, it get's interesting. From the tight "S" turn south of the station, between 110th and 59St the split level track swap. The run between 34th and West 4th St(which I think is the fastest express run in the system, a little TGV before there ever was one). Crossing the East River via the Manhattan Bridge, running on ground level via east 18th & 16th Streets in Brooklyn and finally seeing the Atlantic Ocean and Coney Island. At present the route hasn't changed but the scheduling has. However it's still a nice ride, any D Train Fans out there?
Grew up on it. Home station was Newkirk, and used to travel the wole range, the Fordham, 155th St, and midtown. Then of course, the other direction toi Coney Island. In High School, to Brighton Beach, then at 17 we moved away for good (ecxept for a 3 year stint in Midwood in the early 90's).
In my first year of high school, they pulled the 44's off, leaving the other cars, which were all dingy looking by that time. I hated it being all local on weekends, and later split between Broadway and 6th Av. (why I'd rather see them change the letter during reroutes), and of course now, it's local all the time (but at least it got shiny new cars, even though everyone hates them for supposedly being so slow, which I never really noticed)
I hope when all the bridge work is (hopefully) finished in 4 years and thre final permanent service arrangement comes out, it will be express again, and they should consider on weekends as well (at least to Kings Hwy).
I am a big D train fan, out of The Bronx. I ride it every day. Loved your story. BTW my grandfather help to design the Concourse Line.
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW my grandfather help to design the Concourse Line.
Cool! Any stories you'd like to share about that?
--Mark
I'd like to ask him a few questions:
Who decided to make Yankee Stadium as a local stop?
Why do most of the stations on the Concourse have completely different tile designs (brick like) than other IND stations?
Wouldn't it have made sense to make the whole line 4 tracks?
>>>Wouldn't it have made sense to make the whole line 4 tracks? <<<
My grandfather thought so (notice how the lower level of 145th st was designed for 4 tracks) but he was overruled by the two other architects that he worked with. They wanted to save money to make themselves look good. Or, so the family story goes. I will try to dig up some more.
Peace,
ANDEE
You have a new handle. Splendid. Your new one is better than your old one.
One story was that Bronx residents were offered a choice of getting a three-track line now or wait another year for additional funding for a four-track line. They wanted the Concourse line built right then and there, so that's what they got.
Yes, the 34th - W4th IND dash is fast and oh so sweet. Especially at the front window of an R40 "Q" train.
The dash "express" tracks seem to be in very good shape. Perhaps it is because it is very straight so tracks can tolerate high speeds.
Hey, Subway Fan, I'm a D Train (Brighton Line) fan from the "Old School". I used to ride during my high school days and enjoyed the special "Museum Train" run that occurred at morning and evening rush hours when a restored set of R-1/9 cars were run on the local (then M Train) tracks. The D/Q run down to Coney Island is one of the great pleasures of the subway system.
BMTman
To Eric B, SUBWAYSURF, John, and BMTman, thanks for the love. I'm currently an out of state resident, but the memories are strong and they run deep. I grew up in the Bronx and my home stop was Tremont Ave on the D and 176 St on the #4 Train. Any other D Train Fans out there?
10/22/2000
Yes, I Bill "Newkirk" am a fan of the (D) line. But more so before the pre-Christie "marraige" of the BMT and IND. Yes, the "BMT" days of the Brighton Line was the best memories for me. Viewing BMT Standards, D-Types, R-27/30's and R-32's from the Newkirk Avenue overpass is burned into my memory.
Now we'll probably hear from #4 Sea Beach Fred about why the Sea Beach is getting a bad rap. #1Brighton Exp.Bob, are you out there ?
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS !!
i've lived alongside the brighton line all my life, and i certainly am a fan of the brighton express and brighton local... my memories of the line are:
1) riding with the railfan window half way down between prospect park and 7th ave. and remembering to duck where there was always water dripping down
2) watching the city bound trains arc over when they left the north end of the station at dekalb, where all the switches were...
3) looking at the gap between the front cars and the platform at the south end of dekalb ave. station
heading toward coney island
4) during rush hour, listening to the annoucements of incoming trains... "now arriving on track 3, the brighton express to....
5) riding in the triplexes both at the front window and in the little passageway between cars... hoping to get close to the front window, as kids and people actually would crowd the window to look out...
6) the non stop run between prospect park and 7th ave always was fast...
7) being at the railfan window south of prospect park and having someone throw down something that slammed into the window i was looking out, but the wire mesh held the glass intact...
8) wondering where those trains on the other side of the manhattan bridge were going...
9) looking at the side destination signs on the triplexes and looking at the pane of glass that either said "via bridge" or "via tunnel"
10) watching the lights go out in the following cars right after they went out in the front car... i always thought it was like predicting the future...
11) seeing the conductor come forward to the head car whenever the express went over the bridge...
12) then having the r1/9's on the d in later years
[7) being at the railfan window south of prospect park and having someone throw down something that slammed into the window i was looking out, but the wire mesh held the glass intact...]
So, now we understand how this trumatic event formed you into the raving maniac we know and appreciate....;-)
BMTman
BMT Man: Those rowdy Brighton Beach bums throwing things down at you while your head was out the window. Uncivilized. That would never have happened on a Sea Beach train. You don't suppose it was a Sea Beach fanatic that did it, do you? Nah! It was probably Brighton Beach Bob after the Yankees lost another World Series. Which one? Was it 1955, 1957, 1960, 1961, or 1964?
Or the Dodger Fans in 41, 47,49,53,56, and all the years in between when asked ARE THE DODGERS STILL IN THE LEAGUE, and now the Mets running around in circles and not the bases either. Also many times riding the slow beach things getting thrown, and they still have not cleaned it up yet. GO YANKS
Ah, yes, who can ever forget Bill Terry's famous question, "Is Brooklyn still in the league?" That's even worse than Charlie Dressen's "The Giants is dead."
Oh and BTW, the Yankees won the 1961 World Series in five over the Reds. Mantle was suffering from an abcessed hip as a result of a cold shot having gone awry.
Although it was way after the R1/9s, you can't forget the cartoon at the old Myrtle Ave. station!
That cartoon was so cool ! However, the view was never as good on the "B" or "N" using the bypass tracks, on the way to the bridge.
JDL
Was the cartoon, of Slow Beach Fred?
I also love the D train, as it provides the most "complete" one seat ride of any line in the system, showing the IND's West Side express, a great view across the Manhattan Bridge, and a scenic view down the BMT's Brighton line. I did prefer the days when the D was an express terminating at Brighton Beach.
Hello Bill! I knew you were expecting me. I had similar memories of the Sea Beach when I was a kid. It was an express train from 42nd Street to Coney Island, and it breezed through many stops in Manhattan and Brooklyn. When it came out of the tunnel, it was mostly local but at times it did bypass many of those stops as well, and was was because there were usually other Sea Beaches closer behind.
We are talking about the Brighton not the Slow Beach, and you lived in Astoria anyway. You only used the Sea Beach to visit Grandma
I m Out here, I am a pre Christie St Brighton Rider, I am a Brighton Beach Fan, be it a 1, Q, QB,QT, QJ, M or D, whatever is on thje Brighton, and yess Franklin Sunny Sunday Expresses. My stop of course KINGS HIGHWAY
I like the Brighton Line too - especially the express service, which, today is made up of Slants wearing the "Q" sign. The "D" is a local in Brooklyn, unfortunately, all its express service is uptown.
Nothing beats a Brighton Express under full green. The R40s are pretty fast cars and they get a good chance to run out there.
wayne
Wayne,
I too like the Brighton Express far more than any other line, mostly because of its long express runs on embankment. I started riding in September 1965, and therefore missed weekend express service by 2 years and the Triplexes by less than that. I liked it best between 9/65 and Nov. 1967 for the exclusive use of Brightliner rolling stock on both the Q and the M (the two Brighton expresses). Those new Brightliners would all but to fly on the downhill toward Newkirk Av. The Q was always horribly overcrowded in the morning rush. Although I hated the introduction in 11/67 of the R1/9s inherited from the former IND D, the hook-up with the 6th Av. line allowed more frequent service and less overcrowding. Fortunately, the R1/9s only lasted a short time on the line, fully replaced by the R44s by 1973. Actually, I think the Brighton line may be the one line in a residential area that had three regular revenue expresses running during the same time period (before my time, though), the Broadway exp., the Nassau St. specials, and the Brighton-Franklin weekenders. My wish for the future would be (if ever the MB re-opens on both sides) would be for the Q Brighton express to run 16/7 out to Jamaica, express all the way (replacing the F, which would replace the proposed V), the D running as it days now, and restoration of the M to the Brighton. Although I have been an expatriate for some time, whenever I visit New York I try to take at least one round-trip ride on the Brighton Express.
--Harry (Q Brightliner)
That would be the Q, not the D. It is a great line, not my favorite, but certainly one of the TA's. They have made some great improvement on the entrances and the stations. I enjoyed riding it this past summer, but please don't tell Brighton Beach Bob that. He would never let me live that down.
If it's still as crowded as it was in my day, then it should be a TA favorite (probably one of the few lines that is a moneymaker). What makes money deserves investment. When I visited last May, it was crowded on the several mid-day rides I took. Even your Sea Beach was crowded from mid-town Manhattan to Dekalb, when almost everyone got off. So now, Fred, you admit it, you did ride the Brighton on your visit to New York. Probably got you to where you wanted to go a whole lot faster than the Sea Beach. Did you take my suggestion and also ride the Dyre Av. line?
--Harry (Q Brightliner)
I disagree with the assumption that a "moneymaker" line should receive investment, and lesser-used lines (or sections of lines) not receive investment. The NYC subway system is just that -- a system which needs to be kept in good repair/service for the benefit of all its users. This is a major piece of the city's infrastructure, and critical to its population (resident and transient).
Remember National Cities Line? That was the tactic that NCL (allegedly a front for GM) used to decimate the trolley industry. The took lines that had either had marginal ridership all-together, or poor ridership in sections, and discontinued them as not being "moneymaking." When the trolleys stopped going places that people wanted or had to go, they stopped riding the trolleys and using the buses substituted instead. As trolley ridership declined and bus ridership increased, NCL said, "See! We told you buses are better!" Let this not happen again.
right on! it is the light density streams which feed the major rivers. dam them up(fail to provide credible service) and you lose twice. It is really the same as the time of day argument. Even if the 10:30 at night service islightly used the riders probably used the same line at some other hour.
[National City Lines...(allegedly a front for General Motors)...]
Actually, National City Lines was totally a front for General Motors. GM was even prosecuted in the 1950's, under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, for its role in NCL's buy-up-and-tear-down of the trolley industry. The Sherman Act's catch-phrase, "conspiracy in restraint of trade," was fully applicable. GM was convicted and fined $1,000.
And they happily paid the $1000 and went right on doing what they were "convicted" for.
As a sop, Balimore got ACF-Brill buses, and L.A. got trolley coaches and PCC CARS!!!!.
General Motors had been actively eliminating the competition for the automobile as early as 1923. NCL was just the later vehicle.
We can all see, every day, what they did.
An infamous tour guide at Branford once, during his tour to
a group of elderly women, stood atop the bumper of one of the
cars on display and, talking about the National City Lines issue,
proclaimed "G.M. F**KED the trolleys!"
Well, needless to say that's not part of the visitor experience
that we train our operators and tour guides to convey :) {ObDisclaim:
this happened a long time ago}
The NCL saga has been given more weight than it deserves in
telling the story of the decline (and rebirth) of the trolley
industry. It's the kind of romantic oversimplification that
makes us feel warm and fuzzy, the clear-cut good-and-evil story.
I wouldn't want to launch into a long essay on the topic, but
to summarize I'd say that NCL put the nail in the coffin in
some cities. Many other systems went belly up or bustituted
without any help from NCL. IMHO, the thing that killed the
trolley industry was World War 1.
Sorry Jeff, I've heard it recently at BERA (not from my mouth or the Class of 2000) but they didn't use the F word just the story.
Tour guides are certainly allowed to talk about the issue!
Our official program policy, though, is we don't want to
mislead visitors and have them walk away with the misinformation
that there was this wonderful, perfect thing called the trolley
industry that was murdered by an evil conspiracy.
I wouldn't want to launch into a long essay on the topic, but
to summarize I'd say that NCL put the nail in the coffin in some cities. Many other systems went belly up or bustituted without any help from NCL. IMHO, the thing that killed the trolley industry was World War 1.
World War 1? I'm somewhat surprised, I didn't think that car ownership and suburbanization were factors for some years afterward.
Yes, World War I, because it introduced a new economic term:
inflation! If you look at the cost of labor and materials
from the 1880s into the 1910s, it was relatively flat. The
Great War increased demand for both of these and prices began
to climb. The "roaring" 20s were a period of rampant inflation.
1917 is roughly the peak year of the trolley era. Retrenchment
began in the early 20s. New lines were not being built, and
some marginal lines were being cut back. Of course by 1929,
when the Electric Railway Presidents' Conference Committee was
formed, the industry had sunk into deep doo-doo.
The Brighton is so crowded on weekends I can't believe that the line won't support express service. I know everyone gets two days off and such would raise the expense of operating express trains on the weekend but the D is contantly SRO (standing room only) on weekends.
10-12 minute headways and then for a few hours (Weekend "Rush") there are 8 minute headways so at least increase headway if you can't have an express.
I think it's even more ridiculous that they don't have E,F express on Queens Blvd on weekends. It's much harder to get a seat on the F train on weekends. On Saturday it feels like rush hour all day on the F, with less trains. It's crowded and slow.
There is no logical reason why there is no express on Queens Blvd on weekends, just the TA being cheap and cutting service where there should be.
On weekends I avoid the F since it's horrible then, so I stick to the 7 which still runs often even on weekends.
I guess the Queens Blvd IND problems relate to the constant construction on the line, whereas the 7 line does need so much upkeep.
They have express service on Queens Blvd on weekends.
Officially there's weekend Queens Blvd. express on the weekends, but recently every time I've gotten on an E or F during the weekend it's been local.
Andrew
That's due to GO's concerning the 63rd. St. connection.
It has been disrupted/inconsistent for some time because of the GOs for the 63 St connector and other work. It'll undoubtedly be messed up for at least another year judging from the numerous postings about the connector timetable.
Didn't get the chance ride the Dyre Line last summer. As you might surmise from some the past posts I am not too popular with some of the Bronxiters on this line. Maybe next time. In a disguise.
Maybe next time. In a disguise.
Oh, you mean you're going to come in Confederate grey? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, he wears is T Shirt with pictures of Nixon and Reagan with halo s around their heads.which says Working People Suck, Hooray for big business.
Oh, you mean you're going to come in Confederate grey? :-)
I think Fred will join you in fighting the damnyankees.
Fred, I heard the rumor is, that the people who got the franchise for a trolley, are going to take over the Slow Beach, South of 59th, and turn it into a trolley line, and no more slow beach. At least the service will be faster.
The Franklin Expresses only ran on Sundays when the Express did not run. In the 50s the Express ran Mon-Sat Last Brooklyn Train left Times Sq at about 9.40PM, so there never was more then 2 trains running the express and the local, or the Brighton-Franklin which ran both exp and local and the regular local. Btw, When the express did not run, the local ran express in Manhatten, and over the bridge.
My home station is Kings Hwy on the Brighton. I sure do miss the tower at Kings Highway that squating box they put over the station does no justice to the old tower that look out over the interlocking.
I've been here at this station since I was born. Live in the apartment house my father was born in. I love the Brighton Line and when the D ran express with a local M train. Or even that brief period of skip stop service when they were rebuilding the stations (never a worry at Kings Hwy).
My home station was Brighton Beach until I was 12, when I moved to Flatlands, and then Kings Highway became my home station, too.
If you want variety, the Brighton Express is tops. The Manny B, subway running, DeKalb Ave interlocking, open cut, embankment (on one of the few "alley ROWs" in the subway system), and elevated ... all make for an interesting ride.
If you thought the express run between Brighton Beach and Prospect Park is great normally, try it sometime during a battery run between the two stops! Wow!!
--Mark
Lou and Mark must have been Madison Boys, along with Hey Paul and myself. Looking forward to meeting with Paul and going to the Madison openhouse on the 4th, and having lunch at the deli on KH and 19th, I forgot its name, boy will i miss Durbows.
Brighton Exp. Bob: The name of the deli is Adelman's. That is one of my destinations whenever I visit New York. Great food and great transportation to get there.
--Harry
Growing up, when I took a trip with my parents to "New York," it meant visiting the cousins who live around Avenue U and Ocean Avenue. The rare trip to Manhattan involved a long ride on the D (mid-1980's; I think the D/Q were skip-stop most of those years); 90% of my subway riding must have been on the D before moving to New York in 1996. Also, we usually stayed with the cousin on East 16th Street, so the Brighton el was right outside my bedroom window on those vacations :).
My first look at the Brighton train came from the Lincoln Rd. overpass when I'd visit my cousins. They had the greatest apartment, on Ocean Avenue between Prospect Park and the subway. A few years later I was riding the Brighton train to go to High School. Every so often, I'd cut school just to stay on the train.
My memories of the Brighton Line are very strongly tied to memories of my family and growing up. Even now, I'll ride the line (especially the segment south of Prospect Park) and those treasured memories come flooding back. It's hard to believe that something like a subway line can be so interwoven into the fabric of ones life, yet it surely is. All things considered, I view myself as a very lucky person to have a career so closely tied to personal history.
Nice post, Steve.
I see we have a mutual love of the Brighton Line.
There is hope for us after all. :-)
(Now, let's keep our fingers crossed for MTH to do the SBK diesels in O-gauge).
BMTman
Steve, I enjoyed reading your post. Kings Highway was my home station from which I rode to the same high school as you every day (I lived in a 2-fare zone, having to take the bus from Mill Basin). I hated high school but I have fond memories of that ride to Atlantic or Dekalb, and although I am 6000 miles away for these past 20 years or so I think about it often. Cut school? They never let us do that at Tech, probably the only HS in the city without home uniforms for football (no home field) and back then no females. Ugh!
--Harry (Q Brightliner)
Cut school? They never let us do that at Tech, probably the only HS in the city without home uniforms for football (no home field) and back then no females. Ugh!
I came from the Bronx and went to Tech and would occasionally cut to take the train out via Brighton and come back on the Sea Beach.
Those were the days !!
I'm of class 1969. What about you?
Class of 1968 !!!
Well, I guess I am the senior member of this thread. Class of 67. I was also hopelessly in love with Ms. Bell. Didn't cut school for the whole semester she was my homeroom teacher.
Union Turnpike was my home station but my father worked in Brooklyn so he'd drive me to Avenue U every AM. We'd have breakfast before he'd drop me at the station. In the aftenoons, I'd be relegated to the GG local and then the E or F (all R-9s in those days).
I think that it was in my junior year (that would be right after you left, but JRF would have been there) that a new teacher arrived, Miss Coyle, to become Mrs. Testa by the following year. A redhead with a perfect face, she was my secret favorite. Oh well.... When I'd get out at Atlantic Av., after riding those spanking new beautiful Brightliners, and walk the few blocks to Tech, I'd hear from the gratings the growls of the R1/9 GGs.
I also remember Miss Coyle/Mrs. Testa. She was also my favorite. I also remember Mr. Falik (spelling?). He gave enough homework that today he would be in major trouble. I had so many ways of getting there !!
Pre-merger of IND/BMT
1 - D to Jay St, A to Lafayette
2 - D to Jay St, A to Hoyt, GG (R-1/9)to Fulton
3 - D to Hoyt (Yes Hoyt - The final destination was Euclid !!), A or GG as above
4 - D to 34th and change for the Brightliner
5 - 4 to Nevins (if the IND was messed up)
just to name a few
Post-merger of IND/BMT
1 - D to DeKalb after the merger of IND and BMT
2 - 4 to Nevins
It was great 34th to West 4th going down the hill !!!!!
I also attended Tech, however I don't remember those teachers as I graduated in 1974. I rode the IND Fulton Street Line from Boyd Avenue or Rockaway Blvd. I still remember how I used to wait for the Rockaway train (usually R-1/9's) as opposed to the Lefferts Blvd. (R-10's) train most mornings. Especially in winter. Those rattan seats (the R-10's had most of the Velon seats replaced by cold, hard fiberglass at this time) and heaters made the old pre-war cars very comfy on a cold Brooklyn morning! In my freshman year, for variety's sake I could change at East New York for the Broadway El and then take the "Myrt" down to Bridge Jay and walk across Fort Greene Park. Alas, that scenic alternative was very short lived! During my years at Tech, I saw the passing of the old cars, as the R-44/46's sent the R-1/9's to the BMT's Eastern Division to live out their final days. Memories!
I remember Ms. Coyle (Kathleen) very well. I also remember Pattern Making, foundry, The SOS & the SlopCops. I remember the swimming pool on the 8th floor, too. When I started at Tech, the D-Types ruled the Brighton Line with the Standards also well represented, especially running through the Nassau loop. By the time I graduated, the R-32s had overtaken the line.
My brother went to Tech, graduating in Frank's Class of '74.
A funny thing I remember about Brooklyn Tech was that I recall TRAFFIC LIGHTS in the hallways!!(I'm not kidding!) They were small, but hung down from the ceilings and were supposedly used to direct the coming and going of students in an orderly manner (at some time in the schools history).
Does anyone know when the school discontinued the use of the Tech "signalling system"? I recall when I visited Tech in those years (early '70's) the lights were already non-functioning.
BMTman
Oh! That's what those things are! I'm always wondering what those are are.
running on...
or
You did very well to get on a first name basis with her, something I could not do because of my shyness. Pattern making for foundry is an okay memory. Materials science as a freshman an excellent one. The worst memories are machine shop. A good memory was the one occasion we got to use the outdoor gym on the roof. The personality most distinct in my mind, though, is Sam Cohen, the ninth grade math teacher, especially the expletives he used for those who did not do their best thinking or make much effort. When late for school because of a train delay, the basement office to get an excuse to avoid detention.
Oh yes, that freshman english teacher. Rumor has it she married a former student (a senior).
Class of 72
I had her for English in my junior year.
Tech, alma mater, molder of men
proudly we rise to salute thee again,
loyal we stand , now six thousand strong
wake echos wake as thunder our song.
avid.
We always refered to the home room as prefect. When did it change?
avid.
It's prefect now.
running on...
or
It was called prefect back in the fall of 1968. It was never called "homeroom".
Class of CP72
It was Prefect back to the Fall of 1962.
It was called prefect while I was there. Homeroom is just a more universally understood term.
Class of 2004!
running on...
or
Now at Tech, if you're out for one day, you'll hear "I need an absent note from you because I have you cutting now" 8 times a day. Tech now has a uniform... blue with white letters with a red border around them.
running on...
or
Oh Noooo!!!
Nice to hear that Tech finally has home-field jerseys. But does it have a home field? Or do they have the home jerseys and just never wear them?
Nope. No home fields. When they play at "home", they play at Midwood Field.
running on...
or
R68A 5200 is running on the B, I saw it recently.
Anyone ever tell you that you have one helluva name. LINCOLN. I get the chills anytime I hear it. Of course, of all the people I have ever heard about, Abe Lincoln is my No. 1 hero. There is no other mortal man who can touch him in my heart. In fact, I carry a picture of him in my wallet and a Lincoln coin as well. So I'm off topic. I love Lincoln more than the Sea Beach and the Mets. Understand?
I had a few pictures of Grant in my wallet until I went to the bank.
Knowing about you, I can guess there will be plenty of Grants in your wallet as you knife through life.
Knife through life?
Personally I prefer Jacksons. There are a lot of places that don't take more than $20.
I saw it on the B line a few days ago. And, at the same time, I saw a R68A running on the N Line. I'll just put the N from now on so it'll load faster and since the R68As are assigned to the B Line... normally.
running on...
Bay Parkway?
Yes. There is a G.O. in effect. SHuttle Buses replace train service between Bay Parkway and Coney Island.
running on...
Wife and I didn't know what to have for dinner last night. Went to Stillwell (BMT LINES sign still on Surf Ave) and had Frog Legs.
A few years later I was riding the Brighton train to go to High School. Every so often, I'd cut school just to stay on the train.
I can't count the number of times I would be late for school because I decided to ride the D to Brighton Beach, an M or QJ train to Coney Island and an F train (with slant 40s and R-9s in those days) back towards school "just for the fun of it".
I also learned that for brushing up for exams later in the day, a great combination was to take a 5 train out of Flatbush/Nostrand, a D to Brighton Beach, an M to Stillwell Ave and an F to school. By the time I arrived, I was ready for the exams! Always did well, too!
--Mark
The very first IND train I ever took was a D on April 30, 1967. That day we took one from Rockefeller Center all the way to Stillwell Ave., back when it still ran on the Culver line. Later, I'd see and hear the venerable R-1/9s howling past 81st St. at about F# above middle C. My very first express dash up CPW was on a prewar D on November 24, 1967, just before the R-32s took over with the opening of the Chrystie St. connection. The A may be my personal favorite route, but the D ranks right up there as well.
My biggest disappointment when the Chrystie connection opened in 1967 was that the T with all of the then nice and shiny R32's were gone from the Astoria line. Instead, the RR was assigned consists of R27's and R16's (before they were painted red). An occasional graffiti laden R32 would be signed as an RR during the mid 70's.
Jose
The R-32s remained on the West End portion, anyway, since some were assigned to the then-new B line and also the TT, which by then had been reduced to a late-night and Sunday shuttle. They also wound up on the AA and D lines, with some remaining on the N.
And many ended up on the QJ and M rotes as well during the post-Chrystie St. period. I believe almost everything ran everywhere during this time.
Since NYCT published a Insiders Guide for the buses, I would like to know if they published the same for the subways, if so, who can I get in contact to receive this copy.
Yes, they do. In fact, I just got a copy of the 2000 edition (from a friend who had one extra).
You might try calling NYCT Customer Assistance at 718-243-3322 to get one.
David
Hi, all,
It seems my little diatribes about all of the off-topic posts around here lately have resulted in a groundswell of support for those who are making the off-topic posts, and against me (and others who share my view). I have a few things to say, and I hope you'll all bear with me. I also hope that those who have killfiled me will be made aware of what I'm saying here and now, since they wouldn't see this post on their own.
The SubTalk board and its sister board, BusTalk, are great places for the railfan/busfan community to talk about their favorite subject. Or, more precisely, they once were and could be again. But when people start talking about things that have nothing whatsoever to do with transportation, and then get mad when others call them on it, then there is no point in even looking at the posts anymore. It is unfair that people should have to look through literally dozens of posts about off-topic items in order to find the one post that actually contains some transit-related information.
Moreover, while it is certainly within a poster's prerogative to killfile another poster, it is the height of rudeness to announce that decision to others. I never--EVER--killfiled anyone, no matter how off-topic or off-base they got, and if I had I certainly wouldn't have crowed about it to the general populace, as some others here have seen fit to do.
I am not the "thought police." Nobody on this board is, nor should anybody be. Everyone has the right to an opinion, and everyone has the right to express said opinion -- IN THE PROPER FORUM. SubTalk and BusTalk are not the proper forums for non-transportation-related topics. This is not my opinion; it is fact. Our host, David Pirmann, says that himself at the top of each board. But, I guess a friend of mine is right when he says that non-enforcement of a law (or in this case a rule) constitutes suspension of said law/rule. Accordingly, I am going to change my self-imposed policy on killfiles: I am killfiling the entire board. In other words, I'm taking my ball and going home.
You can deal with your baseball, your food, your automobiles, your 1950s TV, etc., yourselves. But the next time you need accurate historical information, or you need to know why something is the way it is, or you need to know what's coming up next, from a man who actually knows -- rather than dealing with the rumor-mongers -- find someone else. I'm out of here.
David
hey david...
as one who has on more than one occasion popped my own cork about things that annoyed me here and also signed off the airwaves, i understand your annoyance at the off topic posts... politics, baseball,food, tv, and other topics are frequently discussed here... and david pirmanndoes request that the posts be on topic...
you have reminded people of their off topic threads... in a sense you are confronting them and telling them that they are wrong... most people do not like hearing that...
i suppose that when someone tells you that they are putting another in their killfile, it is their way of expressing annoyance at something that has been done or said...
changing people's behavior is a difficult chore, especially if one does not have enforcement powers... i don't think you are going to be able to make subtalk or bustalk to be the way it is supposed to be...
however, if you enjoy sharing information with people who are also interested in mass transit, then stick around... for your own enjoyment and to bring information to people who are interested...
it's strange... i have been around here for only a year... i have gone from being very very absorbed in all the intrigues here, to now where i hardly read
most of the posts... my own involvement here is strange... i've always been a loner, with a twisted way at looking at things.. i suppose my favorite posts have involved some sort of strange take on things...
before i get absorbed in myself, i just wanted to acknowledge your blowing off some steam...
i hope you decide to stay... your presence here keeps me from engaging in vicious attacks against the era :-)
Subtalk is basically the nyc.transit newsgroup with
authenticated posting access. I know where David Pirmann is
coming from; both he and I have been involved in the internet
long before Al Gore or Bill Gates invented it, and I'm sure
we've both seen enough flame wars over the years.
There are a few simple rules for keeping peace in a (un-moderated)
discussion group:
1) Don't start an off-topic thread
2) If the thread is drifting off-topic, consider terminating it,
taking it offline, or moving it to another group.
3) If a thread has wandered from the original, on-topic or not,
change the subject line.
4) Don't correct spelling or grammar, it isn't worth it
5) Don't yell at people when they violate rules 1-3 above, it
also isn't worth it.
6) Don't yell at people when they violate rules 4 and 5, that's
even more counter-productive
Btw, I never use a killfile. I only read a handful of posts.
There are certain posters whom I almost never read except on
a lark to see what nonsense they are spewing. There are others
that I'd take a chance on even when the subject line is not
promising simply because of their track record. However, it is
tedious sifting through all of the posts, especially when many
of them are off-topic, and even more so when many have misleading
subject lines.
I'd hate to see David or anyone else vanish because of silliness.
Ultimately, any discussion group as a collective has to decide
whether to remain focused on a common interest or splinter into
a hazy general-purpose chat room.
Algore didn't invent the internet! I just got a copy of his proposals on healthcare,taxes and education. It's pretty scary. In 14 days George Bush will begin the process of ending the reign of terror called Clinton/Gore.
Sorry Mike, I personally have nothing against it, but your political post is one of the reasons why David left.
Good Point Zman!
If mike wants to get into politics he should create a website called: "Bush/Gore Talk".
Again, a waste of thread space...
BMTman
No, he didn't invent it. But he had much to do with changing the network from the defense/education network it was into a network accessible to all comers. (sic)
-Hank
Good riddence, then. Our host has NEVER stopped anyone from posting anything, with the exception of the obvious flame wars and insulting diatribes that pop up occasionally. Notably, those flamewars have started 99% of the time from 'on-topic' posts, such as those about the R142 and whether it is more important for a city to complete certain projects to improve the economic health of the city, or to build a stadium on the west side of Manhattan. Unless the board is strictly moderated (such as bit.listserv.fire-l), off topic posts are part of the deal. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you read it, don't bitch. If you're going to get a stick up your ass about it, you should find other things to do with your time than participating in such groups.
-Hank
I can understand where David is coming from. I too think the board and its' recent postings has crossed way over the boundries of the subject matter. I can deal with discussions of additional service to/from the games and Yankee/Met decorated subway cars, but all this anti or pro Yankee; anti or pro Met and S.F. Giant postings are a bit too much here on SubTalk and really do have a place on a chat board of some other sort. Dave P. created this board for the purpose of subway chat. This board is a financial donation by him to railfans to talk rail related topics. Dave would have created a sports talk site for the kinds of postings here lately if he wanted to. He did create BusTalk, didn't he, to cut out bus topics here because some rail fans dislike buses? David's loss to the board means that we have lost another person who has the ability & sources to get the facts and to dispel some of the rumors and misconceptions which come up all too often here. And the board in the long run, after the series is over and beyond, will have one less person who posts with the mindset & knowledge of the entire subway system, not just "what I want for me and the line I ride on and the car model I like to ride in and why I want my local stop turned into an express stop because it is convenient for me and yada yada yada."
I tend to agree. Too often I find 'relevant' posts removed from the board after only a couple of days (and with other recent time commitments, I find myself on infrequently) while other 'non-relevant' ones linger for too long. The definitions of 'relevant/non-r' and 'too long' are in the eye of this beholder, and I've expressed it here before, but I think anyone who questions what this board is supposed to be all about can read the definition in the header. Granted, many of my posts are not about NYC transit items, but I do add them for edification of what's happening in other places (especially my own little home town 90 miles to the southwest of the center of the universe), and they seem to usually be well received.
I would also offer that baseball will, thankfully, be over in a week or so, and then what will those who want to rant about it rant about? My guess is that they will return to transit topics, the same that originally brought them to this board in the first place.
Personally, I could do without the off-topic stuff, so I don't read it as a rule (and time constraints take care of that for me anyway lately). I try to stick to what I think is interesting and relevant to me. I could do without the offensive stuff and the name-calling, and I often hope through our collective ignorance that this kind of stuff will go away, but we do live in a free country where anyone can express an opinion. I find that I don't really miss the board that much when other activities keep me away from it, and I think that's directly related to the 'turn' that the board seems to be taken, but I do hope it stays as a forum for transit fans. The others can find other boards, and I hope that they do. In the meantime, I'll use this as it suits my needs.
[Good riddence (misspelled), then.]
This is precisely David's point. You, as well as BM34 and many others, are openly and vigorously hostile to even the CONCEPT of an on-topic post. Because of that, SubTalk and BusTalk have degenerated into mere shadows of their former selves, and they've lost a valuable and articulate source of information (and a nice guy, too).
----
[Our host has NEVER stopped anyone from posting anything....]
Actually, I wish Mr. Pirrmann (too many Davids here) could/would remove off-topic posts. Then again, he probably has more going on in his life than just this site. He's been good enough to provide and maintain this space for railfans and busfans to share information and opinions. We should thank him by honoring the intent of SubTalk and BusTalk (i.e. by staying on-topic).
----
BTW, I'm the friend whom David mentioned in passing. I've always believed that explicitly refusing to enforce a rule (e.g. staying on-topic) was equivalent to suspending or revoking it. I usually apply that logic to things like smoking in the subway system or bikers not stopping at red lights; it seems to apply here as well.
I have no objection to on-topic posts. But hey, if you go to a railfan event, the discussions do not all revolve around trains, do they? This is the same thing. This board is mainly focused on the New York City Subway. We constantly mention other systems, buses, proposals for imaginary lines. Conversations on the BMT inevitably turn to conversations about Coney Island, and then to Nathans, and then Nedicks being better (or worse) then Nathans, ones favorite Nathan's in now a McDonalds. Whatever happened to Horn and Hardart? Automat soup, yum. I took the 7 to the Mets game, Let's go Mets! Go Yankees! Go Mets! Burn Yankee fan, BURN! Philadelphia sucks, and so does their excuse for a subway. Hey where did the Iggles play before they built the Vet? The Vet is an ugly stadium.
Do you see my point yet?
-Hank
I'm not a sports fan so I don't know "Iggles". Is that a nickname for the Phillies the way "Bums" was for the Dodgers?
I'm not a sports fan so I don't know "Iggles". Is that a nickname for the Phillies the way "Bums" was for the Dodgers?
That's how natives of Philly/South Jersey pronounce "Eagles".
Oh my gosh! I thought he was talking baseball, not football!
Don't let anyone chase you away from here. You have as much right to be here as anyone else. There is such a thing called freedom of speech. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone supports our views. In that respect, pointing out that someone or something is off topic doesn't win anyone allies. The thought police label is most inappropriate. You're labeled this because you don't go along with everyone else? That's absurd. Since when does anyone have support the views of the majority?
That label was conjured up by somebody on the board that I had a disagreement with. I felt he was offensive, not because he told the truth about the conditions in the Bronx, but the presentation of his argument was questionable. So when the minority doesn't go along with the majority, they're labeled the thought police, which is pure BS. I'm not gonna cringe in a corner and hold back because people know best here. If I think you're offensive, I'm gonna point it out to you. I don't apologize for feeling the way I do. However, I do my best to stay away from the posts that have a potential for problems, which is what you should do, and only read a handful of significant posts. It's as simple as that.
I must say that since off topic posts regularly pop up, the Webmaster may as well revise the wording of the Bulletin Board Usage Rules and omit the references to Off Topic Posts. No matter what, they'll keep popping up, which makes the rule of no off topic posts useless. If they want to engage in it, let them! I will just skip over that.
-Stef
Well Stef: We agree on that. David should think twice before he decides to leave. As for as those off topic posts were concerned, I never used on until I read others for about four of five months But I find them entertaining. We all have divergent interests and if that brings us together as a group that should be fine. Tell me this. When I visit the Bronx next year, do I have to wear a disguise, or will I be given a decent reception when I visit the Morris Park area?
[When I visit the Bronx next year, do I have to wear a disguise, or will I be given a decent reception when I visit the Morris Park area?]
Well, Bob, certainly DON'T come disguised as Sea Beach Fred otherwise you will likely be chased out of that northern-most borough with more than just a casual 'Bronx cheer'. ;-)
BMTman
[When I visit the Bronx next year, do I have to wear a disguise, or will I be given a decent reception when I visit the Morris Park area?]
[Well, Bob, certainly DON'T come disguised as Sea Beach Fred otherwise you will likely be chased out of that northern-most borough with more than just a casual 'Bronx cheer'. ;-)]
OPPPs! Imbarrassing!
I meant, don't come as yourself, Fred. Try and look like a Yankee player, Stef or Borough President Ferrer. That should work. Whatever you do, don't wear a Mets shirt for GOD's sake!
BMTman
David, that is infintile. I don't roar when I read something I thing is not germanine to the site. I go on with something else. Give everyone their due. That's what makes this such a great website. We do get off on tangents. I have made a lot of friends on Subtalk ( a few adversaries, too, I'm afraid to say), and it has been a great experience. I'd think twice before you take your ball and head home.
He's bitching about it on Bustalk now, too.
-Hank
Sounds like either an unhappy lad or a guy with too much time on his hands. Hank, we just try our best. We can't please everyone and we shouldn't try. I've been mostly on topic today but the posts have been interesting, but should the Mets recover, well, Bubba, hold on to your seats.
I must agree here. As being one of your 'adversaries', I must agree that David is going abit overboard with his feelings regarding SubTalk and quality (or lack thereof) of the posts.
It should never come to a point like this where these postings of intellectual masturbation make someone go off on a tangent. I'm afraid at that point, it becomes necessary to find other outlets for your spare time.
BMTman
Intellectual masturbation?!?!?
-Hank!
>>> David, that is infintile. I don't roar when I read something I thing is not germanine to the site. I go on with something else. <<<
Fred;
Perhaps you did not understand the gist of David's post. He is saying that the pollution of the board with numerous non transit posts makes it no longer worthwhile to him to spend the time going through the posts to separate the wheat from the chaff. He has a point. Many of us would like to log on and read transit related information and log off and do other things. Extra posts extend the time on the board, and for those with another life, that is not good.
Some of us tend to think of other SubTalkers as personal friends, and want to discuss any number of interesting subjects with them, just as they would if they got together at a corner tavern after work, and they look at SubTalk as that tavern. When this is done it dilutes the focus of the board. The more the board is diluted, the less hard core rail enthusiasts will be attracted to it, and the less effective it will be. These general subjects should be handled through e-mail.
Some thread drift is inevitable, and should be expected, but starting non transit threads based on the day's headlines, sports teams, or political races should be avoided, and when a thread which started with a transit theme veers completely away from transit, it should end.
Tom
Old Tom makes a number of good points.
However, I don't get upset at alot of off-topic items AS LONG AS THEIR THREAD NAME indicates them as such. I DO abhor threads with a transit related topic that metamorphasize into something totally 180 degrees from what they were about.
BMTman
However, I don't get upset at alot of off-topic items AS LONG AS THEIR THREAD NAME indicates them as such. I DO abhor threads with a transit related topic that metamorphasize into something totally 180 degrees from what they were about.
I agree. If it goes off topic, I start ignoring the thread knowing that if it gets back on topic I will miss stuff.
NA NA NA NA
NA NA NA NA
HEYYYHEYYYHEYYY GOOD BYE!!!!!!
SAYONARA!!!
ARIBIDERCHI!!!!!
AU REVOIR!!!!!!
LATER GATOR!!!!!!
SEE YA BITCH BOY!!!!!!!
BM34x
This is flamage and totally uncalled for. What have you, BM34, contributed to this board lately? You have the ability to bypass Davids, mine or any other postings you want. But to post childish junk like this is simply not necessary. Can you spell K-I-L-L-F-I-L-E?
My sentiments, exactly. If BM34 want to act like a Knuckle Dragger, I'm sure there are other venues where he'll find folks of his own kind.
Wow. Why aren't you on alt.goat-boy? Talk about setting the exact example someone was complaining about, but making it in a way that EVERYONE on the board will hate you.
-Hank
I second that Dave, you can only take but so much abuse, which is why I've stopped sharing info with this board, believe me I got some important info for tomorrows R36 Met Train that people could really use, but due to the ragging that went on in the past, I've quit all informational post with this board.
I'll share pics and fond "old" memories but as for the new stuff, In the words of Chris Tucker, "PEACE OUT"
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
General post:
THIS IS NOT GOOD AT ALL!! TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!!
The purpose of this board is to share information and enjoy interaction with our fellow subtalkers. When people fail to follow some kind of proper subtalk etiquette, people get fed up and leave. David's knowledge and expertise was very valuable to this board and now it's gone. While I may disagree with the way that he has posted some of his posts, without a doubt David still knows his stuff. Trevor Logan's information was also valuable but now even he has stopped posting new info. And I can understand why these two individuals have stopped posting information(among many who have disappeared from subtalk)...
How many times have you clicked on a thread only to see that the post has absolutely no connection to the thread?
How many times have posters asked that posts not be addressed to a particular individual?
How many times has the same question or subject come up over and over and over again?
How many times have fights broken out on this board?
How many times have you been insulted or belittled on this board with no provocation?
How many times has a thread STARTED as an off-topic post?
The purpose of this board should be for RAIL MATTERS ONLY. If you have a disagreement with another person's rail thread then post it with RESPECT to the other person. AND THIS GOES FOR ALL OF YOU.
If you want to talk about other things such as current world events, then your ISP provides chat rooms with other people who will be more than willing to talk about whatever is on your mind.
If these problems persist, you will be seeing fewer persons posting messages with knowledgeable information, wonderful insights, terrific nostalgia and intelligent banter and more persons posting threads that are nothing but garbage.
You can make and enforce the rules as you see fit when you make your own message board. Until then, the webmaster will enforce the rules he wants to enforce. And the general rule has been that he doesn't want to play netcop, and as long as the flamewars stay low, it's fine.
-Hank
Something may have to change, but at what point does a fun, engaging hobby become a cult that is totally hostile to any outside thinking? When people start hurling diktats that a board or a thread within a board be strictly about one focus and one focus only, and to hell with those who dare to broaden the focus by some small means.
I buy books showing old photos of New York City; some general, others specifically regarding aviation or transit. In all photos, however, I am able to see more than just the photos' subject. I begin to think, "Hmmmm, James Walker was Mayor at this time. A hot dog must've cost $.15 instead of the $1.25 it does now. I wonder how many Babe Ruth baseball cards are in the attics of the houses just within this one frame?"
The same can be said about this board with regard to thread drift. Who will bemoan a discussion about Nedicks or Orange Julius when referring to subway station ambience, and the memories these eateries brought to us? Who would challenge a discussion about some other experience linked inextricably to the trains on which we traveled as part of a lively thread?
I was on the ERA's FL9 fantrip this past weekend. Unlike an overwhelming majority of participants, I had no interest in photographing the trains, listening in on a scanner to cab conversations, or exhaustively discussing the merits of one car class over another. I used the trip as a chance for my mind to wander -- to observe scenery I never saw. To experience a rail line I never traveled. To show my girlfriend the New York State that I know. Yet I had a wonderful time and did not seek to spoil everyone else's fun. To me, I accomplished all I set out to, and more. I am sure everyone else did, too.
Yet at one point in the trip, I heard someone mention how the turnout was light because the ERA got out of railfanning and into tourist trips where kids and families and others, assumably like me, are given the chance to disturb his peace. Maybe the turnout was light because those who have only a tangential interest in rail such as myself were largely scared off by the likes of those whose life is eating, sleeping, and railfanning.
Am I a heretic in saying this? I hope not. If the members of this board wish to limit the discussions to a tunnel-visioned view of transit, then so be it. Hopefully David Pirmann would then see fit to add a third board entitled "TransitChat" or something, where people like me without a full-bored interest in transit could discuss peripheral topics with others of like mind.
Submitted with the utmost of respect,
SilverFox
And PS -- I was the one in the FL9 trip car second from farthest from the engines, then taking a snooze with my feet up against the glass of the last car heading back from Wassaic.
You're right, there is nothing wrong with having broader
interests, or discussing them in this forum. Although
I typically gravitate towards threads like "what type of
relay valve did an R-16 have?", I've been known to dabble
in far off topics. All I'd ask is that posters have the
courtesy to change Subject lines when a thread has drifted.
Otherwise one who drops by the forum after a few days' absence
and descends on an interesting looking thread like "Forney
Locomotives and the Manhattan els" finds the discussion is now
actually about what brand of mustard tastes best on a hot dog.
As for the Subway Series (which is evidently a trademark of
the Anhauser Busch Brewing Co.), I've been staying clear of
any subject line that smacks even remotely of it, even if it
means missing potentially interesting material. The level
of inananity is astronomical! If I wanted to hear endless,
mindless "my team is beter than yours nah nah nah nahhhh nah"
comments, I'd go to the nearest schoolyard, bar or radio
call-in show.
I agree. I don't think this board should be limited to off-topic posts but people should take the time to change the subject. For instance, I loaded up the thread about the 2nd Ave subway color, and one thread had spun off into discussions about which kind of tiles to use. Now this is obviously still well within the narrow "rail transit" definition, but it wasn't about the color of the line - it was about 1920 BMT vs 1930 BMT tiles. Why can't everyone change the subject line? Then I could get to the real posts that I want, because I'm not on here 24/7 (Calculus takes a lot of your time). It's just common courtesy.
RIGHT ON, SILVER FOX!! Every word you say is true!!!
"Yet at one point in the trip, I heard someone mention how the turnout was light because the ERA got out of railfanning and into tourist trips where kids and families and others, assumably like me, are given the chance to disturb his peace. Maybe the turnout was light because those who have only a tangential interest in rail such as myself were largely scared off by the likes of those whose life is eating, sleeping, and railfanning."
your remarks struck a chord in my heart... you mentioned the railfan who felt that the "tourists" were disturbing his peace... i often feel that way about tourists and especially other railfans... my own sense of connection to trains and buses has generally been a very private one... when i was at the bus festival or up at branford recently, having other people around made it hard for me to relate to the equipment...
these thoughts reflect my own lack of social adjustment... what's my solution to the problem?... none... i am content to have my real memories of riding the old equipment, and consider the museum cars to be caged animals that are kept for the general public...
I heard the FL-9 fan trip ran light because they ill properly planned the trip the same day as the Metro North Croton Harmon Open House. Which I'm guilty of attending, I was gonna go on the FL-9 trip but changed my mind, however I did show up at GCT at 7:50am to shoot the excursion train before it's pull off. I got on the 8:20am Hudson Line out of GCT and as soon as we peered out of the Park Avenue Tubes and into the Viaduct I enjoyed watching the FL-9 Excursion Train shoot past us at a beautiful pace!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
That's not true. We gave our proposed trip date to Metro-North in May, long before M-N announced its Harmon Shop date. The notices were first sent to our members/subscribers in July, again long before M-N announced its Harmon Shop date. We don't think there was any malice in Metro-North's decision to have its Harmon Shop open house on the same day of the trip, just poor coordination.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Hi, David
"you mentioned the railfan who felt that the "tourists" were disturbing his peace... i often feel that way about tourists and especially other railfans"
The FL9 trip cemented in my mind that railfans are a territorial lot. One of the most dangerous places in the world to be is between a train and the lens of a railfan's camera. I respect people who want to be "at one" with the things they enjoy, but when it comes to the point that they would probably tell a nude Samantha Fox (no relation) to get the way out of a locomotive they are snapshooting, that's taking it a bit too far.
"when i was at the bus festival or up at branford recently, having other people around made it hard for me to relate to the equipment..."
Leave your sexual habits out of this forum! That was a joke. Now, examine how you took that joke. If you didn't find it funny, then it seems that you are past the hobby stage, and into an obsession. And no, I did not at any time suggest that you have sex with transit vehicles.
I am quite a decent bowler. I would fly into a seething rage if some group of beginners would not show proper lane courtesy, make excessive noise, and generally disturb me. Hell, I threw bowling balls in fits of rage! Overhanded!
I also was (and to some extent, still am) an aviation enthusiast. I would buy a registry book and sit on the (then) Pan Am terminal roof at JFK with a pair of binoculars, a camera, and a pad and pencil writing down the registry numbers (That number on the tail of the plane, like N504DL for example), and crossing them off my registry book saying "I saw that plane." My heart skipped a beat when I was able to get a shot of an Air France and a British Airways Concorde nose-to-nose going in opposite directions. I now, however only buy the registry book to keep up with the various airlines' fleets, retired the binoculars, and only watch aircraft flying overhead or when I go to the airport to drop someone off.
I saw more fun in these solitary activities than being with the teeming crowds of my peers who I thought, "just didn't get it." Then, I realized I wasn't exactly a social butterfly. Women? In my wet dreams! Women don't like crybabies (who bowl, no less!) or loners.
"these thoughts reflect my own lack of social adjustment... what's my solution to the problem?... none..."
If you can live with that, more power to you. I happen to think loneliness and extremism both suck after having experienced both. Not wanting to solve problems is escapist and rationalizing. I would love to know how the group that took the FL9 trip lives when they are not on a train.
"i am content to have my real memories of riding the old equipment, and consider the museum cars to be caged animals that are kept for the general public..."
If you are content to have your real memories of riding the old equipment, leave it at that. Better yet, donate your time at the Transit Museum (or write a book for profit) detailing those memories for others to experience. Give some life to those "caged animals" so that others may appreciate them with your zeal.
I wasn't born with a love of trains. I didn't even know there was an active ERA until very late in the game, and I wish there was a nycsubway.org twenty years ago. I became fond of railroads independently. Touch and go. But if I were Joe Q. Zhlub wanting to take trains up as a hobby today, and thought that the FL9 trip was the way to dive right in, I would be largely turned off.
Look. I don't mean to make fun of a very fulfilling and engaging hobby such as railfanning. Railfans are great observers and engineers (in the physical rather than occupational sense of the word). However, for any group to be successful, it must realize that there is a small core of die-hards, a rich layer of the actively interested, and an outer shell of the passive. For it to think it can succeed by either catering only to the die-hards or trying to convert everyone to die-hard status is the height of arrogance and delusion.
Hence, Relax. The sanctity of this board will not be compromised by someone's audacity to discuss a peripheral item to a main theme. I agree that the topic should be changed if a thread drifts, but to bitch and moan that there is no hard transit content is being babyish and obsessive.
silver fox... yours was an interesting post... i am having my team of attorneys scrutinize it to determine whether i have grounds for a lawsuit...
fortunately for you, you stated:
"And no, I did not at any time suggest that you have sex with transit vehicles."
over the years, nasty rumors have circulated that i used to sleep with my r9 motorman's cab... i did sleep in the same room with the cab for many years... however, it has been 3 or 4 years that the cab told me that it needed its space, and we now sleep in separate bedrooms... i see nothing out of the ordinary about these arrangements...
my enormous wealth qualifies me to be described as "eccentric"... on the other hand, if i were impoverished, i would probably be diagnosed as "just plain nuts"....
"my enormous wealth qualifies me to be described as "eccentric"... on the other hand, if i were impoverished, i would probably be diagnosed as "just plain nuts"...."
My lawyers are scrutinizing this part of your post to determine whether or not I have a lawsuit for describing yourself as "just plain nuts" if you were impoverished without adding the caveat, "Caution, may contain peanuts" to warn all the allergy sufferers out there.
My motto is "Why be conventional? It just gets you into a rut."
WAIT! Why do you have to have one or the other? How about a photo of the locomotive AND the nude Samantha Fox (no relation). Better yet? Get a bunch of redhead babes and have them pose with some R-33s. Then you'd have the Red Birds and the Redbirds. In fact arrange the models - As, Bs, and Cs pose with Mainline - Ds, DDs, Es, and the like pose with Corona - then the window size would match the...well you get the idea. It's like those old budweiser commercials - "let's watch both!".
I'd add a quote here but I can't think of any...
"It's Bikini Bass Fishing!"
"It's Train Football!"
"No, they usually go for two."
Why DO the beer companies come up with the absolute BEST ad campaigns?
-Hank
I don't know exactly WHY beer commercials are generally the funniest, but all I can hope is that with all of the "Big Tobacco" settlements over, Janet Reno and the government don't go after "Big Alcohol" and outlaw beer ads on tv. Now THAT would suck.
> Hopefully David Pirmann would then see fit to add a third
> board entitled "TransitChat" or something, where people
> like me without a full-bored interest in transit could
> discuss peripheral topics with others of like mind.
My only comment is.. why should I have to do it? Why don't you do it?
My deepest and most sincere apologies for making it sound like your mandate to provide such an alternate board to us.
There doesn't need to be an alternative board. There is no reason why Subtalk can't have slightly off-topic posts...but people must use common courtesy and change the subject lines so that people can sort through what they do and don't want to read.
The railfans should realize that they are a limited group, and the tourists are the ones paying the bills. Why do you think a subway book costs $39.95? Limited market.
-Hank
You better believe it!!! The BSM Gift Shop has been acquiring stock that the railfans would buy in a million years, but the touristy types snap up in an instant!!! And the gross is up!! (there's still a lot of train/streetcar/railfan type stuff for sale.) It's the (non-railfan) visitors that buy 90% of the stuff that's sold, so we cater to them.
And, where did you find a subway book for $39.95? $49.95 and up seems to be the range I see.
I was making an example of their expense, not being specific.
-Hank
David,
Several weeks ago, I was in a place similar to where you are now. I was frustrated more by personal attacks and some comedic posts than by the off-topic threads. Perhaps it's because I deal with subways and trains for 50 - 60 hours per week, when I come here, I really don't mind it when a thread drifts off-topic. Besides, just like that thing with Kevin Bacon, I suppose ant topic can be linked to subways in 6 or less steps. Hence, I disagree with your position on so-called off-topic threads.
Having said that, I have found your source of information accurate and second only to mine :). I have said it often that there are too many people on this site too eager to post hypothesis, rumor and supposition as fact. There are also some here who would rather see those posts (rather than facts) because it feeds their infantile fantasies. Your accurate, real information doesn't mean anything to them because they are living in a make-believe world. However, most people here do appreciate knowing what is really going on. I found that out many times over and I suspect that you would have gotten the same message had you posted your E-mail address.
In short, do what you need to do but understand, the same people that aggrevate you are the ones that will not miss you.
Having said that, I have found your source of information accurate and second only to mine :).
How humble!
-Hank :p
Perhaps not humble but on the whole, true.
Finally one less complainer on this site. Some of us don't eat,drink, and you know what trains and buses 24/7!
David - I have always enjoyed your posts - informative, factual, brief and to the point. As a valued contributor to this site, I do hope you might reconsider.
From Sydney, Australia - was in NY last year, so I have much interest in your systems and more to learn.
Ian
...as you'll see, it's got all the workings
to delight even the illest of the scrap pack!!
Redbirds forever.. and ever.
One of these days it's gonna be Redbirds Never for ever.
Forty + year old subway cars are scrap yard and musuem yard bound.
The R142's won't totally kill them, but the first nails are in the coffin. It's only a matter of time.
Imagine, An R142 being derailed........ That's 13 million going down the Drain.......That yard aint fit for those trains
but imagine the computerized voice fading away during the derailment
"This........is..................149.....street...........................transfer........
If an R142 derails at 5 mph in one of those yards, the chances are extremely good that they will rerail it, inspect it, and send it on its way, and you'll never even hear about it.
Not that they should not rebuild the yards, but do you really resent them spending the money on the lines instead of the yards?
David McCabe:
It sounds like the tracks in the subway yards aren't in very good condition.
BMTJeff
For those interested, here are the changes to the contract that the 34 day Los Angeles transportation strike achieved. Since the union's main goals were to prevent the 4 day 10 hour work week and the hiring of additional temporary employees, it is hard to consider this a union victory.
Tom
Are the actual subway car DESIGNS trademarked by the MTA?? The only decent shirts we've gotten up here are the ones with the R-10 on it twice [once in reverse] by each NY symbol..There are no signs visible in the head end ...yet there is an 'official MTA licensed product' symbol on it,along with the MLB logo. So, techinically, if somene here were to design a shirt with,say, a Triplex or Low-V on it, would they be in violation of the Trademark Laws?? What about Bill's calenders?
Specific car designs (if they are without route sign marker logos) are NOT copyrighted by the MTA.
BUT -- and it's a BIG one, some of the cars that are considered 'out of service' or antiques (i.e, R-1/9, Low-Vs, pre-Redbird cars) may infact have some aspects of their equipment or car body designs owned by current rail car companies (Kawaski, Bombardier) that acquired the patents from defunct subway car manufacturers like St. Louis Car, or BUDD.
I'm sure there is a way to find this out from NYCT, from their more technical divisions. Perhaps Car Equipment??
BMTman
I just saw a subway series tee-shirt showing two BMT standards (!!!) with modern "4" and "7" symbols on the side windows of the bulkheads. Incidentally, the MTA's own ads appearing on the sides of buses mention only the "4" and "7", completely ignoring the "D". What gives?
Bob Sklar
The first game of the World Series did not end until after 1:00 A.M. I assume the TA placed the extra trains for the lines near Yankee Stadium into position about 11:00 P.M. Did the crews get overtime for the waiting period until they were actually needed? Also, probably 75% of those riding on the extra trains needed to transfer to another train to get home. Was any additional service in place on connecting lines, or just the usual weekend owl service, requiring long waits at the connecting stations (and possibly standing room only connecting trains)?
Tom
Believe me, there are plenty of extra "baseball put-ins" this from a good friend of mine who is a tower operator @ concourse yard.
Peace,
ANDEE
"I keep hearing from Chicago sports fans who think this will be the worst thing to happen to our town since "New York, New York" replaced "My Kind of Town (Chicago Is)" in the minds of some saloon creatures as Sinatra's ultimate city signature tune. They seem to think that as a lifelong Chicagoan and media-braggart White Sox fan, I'll share their pain.
"But I have no anguish in my heart and in fact I'm looking forward to the Subway Series in the same way I'm anticipating the Tyson-Golota fight this Friday night. Let the two brutes fight it out for my entertainment!
"Look. New York doesn't care about Chicago. They think we're in Ohio. Our great secret is that we know we live in the city New York wishes it could be. Let's just enjoy that and not get into details about all the ways in which we best New York, from the profile of the skyline to the quality of the human beings. If we're truly the City of Big Shoulders, we should be able to shrug off the old Second City stereotype as something perpetuated by small and uninformed minds."
"This is one time a Sox fan can root for the Yankees" by Richard Roeper
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Chicago, World Series, Lets see the last time Ike was President, The subway in NYC was 15 cents. There were only 6 teams in the NHL, The was the Sox, now the Cubs, that is a different story, who was Pres. Wilson?
What? Speak English.
I'm pretty sure that if there ever was a Cubs-White Sox world series, it was before Chicago even had a subway. Must have been some time in the 'teens.
Not to rub it in, but the lack of success of Chicago baseball teams is remarkable, just from a probability point of view. Can't say it's the town -- the support has been remarkable. Plus, whatever curse is on the City doesn't seem to have affected other sports.
Not that remarkable. The Cubs sellout tons of games, although they are really bad. Why bother to pay to win? Meanwhile, comiskey is half empty, even though the sox are quality franchise. The cubs have too much fan support to bother being good, while the sox have too little to be good. Plus Reinsdorf is even more evil than Steinbrenner, so maybe the sox are somehow cursed by that. Perhaps he sold the Pale Hoses' souls to make the Bulls what they were.
The Cubs will never have a good team, because people go to the park for the atmosphere and not how good the team is. I go to 3 or 4 Sox and 3 or 4 Cubs games a year and the Cubs games are defintely more fun.
Comsikey Park where the Sox play was designed very poorly and the neighborhood only adds to the low number of fans. The upper deck at Comiskey has only been filled on Opening day and for the Cross-town classic, I believe less then 10 times!!
The White Sox just need some more experience and within the next 5 years max will end the Yankees World Series Streak. I will always say that NYC is the Capital of the world, but my home Chicago comes in a close second and when it comes to sports is #1!! ( No one will ever be at the level Michael Jordan was, they can come close, but never reach it)
The only way the CUBS will ever be good is if they happen to stumble upon players they can pay very little that are good and don't want to get traded away. The Tribune Company or Wrigley (Whoever it is) is very smart, get a medioker team with Sammy Sosa who can hit homeruns and you will fill up the place for almost every game. Wrigleyville Neighborhood does really help also though.
If a Subway Series, or Red Line Series, were ever to happen here, it wouuld be the biggest sports party ever. A couple years ago when the CUBS just made the wildcard position, people partied like the Bulls had won the Championship. That was with the CUBS getting swept, imagine if they were ever really good!!
B.J.: I'll give you this. I was amazed when I visited Chicago in the summer of 1998. I couldn't believe the warmth and friendliness of the people of your town. They seemed just as shocked by my amazement as I was with their warmth. Their attitude was we've always been a city with heart. I believe that now. Yes, I think Chicago would go all out with a subway series of their own, but both teams are cheap and won't spend the money.
It would be a L Series not a subway series. Doesn t the same line serve both stadiums?
Both Wrigley Field and Comiskey Park are served by the same route: the Red Line. A face-off between the Cubs and the WhiteSox, IF it was ever to happen, could correctly be called a subway series. A three-mile section of the Red Line does run underground through Chicago's Loop and Near North Side.
I've tried to ignore the 200 World Series because I already know that New York will win, however I have made the following non-partisan observations. Please excuse me if someone has already pointes this out.
A Subway Series can occur in NYC, Chicago or San Fransisco/Oakland. If any of pairs both make it to the world series, will they call it a subway series or is that a New York trademark? If it is I find it totally unfair. New Yorkers and the New York based media must realize that other cities have subways and 2 ball teams.
Question: If New Jersey gets a baseball team based in Newark would that be a subway series because if you could get to the park via. PATH (or does the FRA railroad play a part here). If Boston makes it (or Baltimore or ::snicker:: Philly) would it be aclled an ACELA Series?
David,
Who can I speak you at Customer Assistance to get a copy of the 2000 subway Insider's Guide.
In addition, since the DOB has a Director of Bus Customer Relations which is Steve Nacco, I would like to know if the DOS has one, if so, who is the Director of subway Customer Relations.
Here's the situation: In the greater City of Middletown, CT there is a large track of land (3000 acres) in the Southern part of the city (around the Partt and Whittney Plant) that the city is trying to attract industrial devolopment to. Its is rugged (for Connecticut) and basically unsuited for industrial devolopment, but the town has zoned it industrial and is planning to install an 3-5 mile sewer line extention to serve what is now a big forrest. If anybody does want to build there it will riun the last piece of open space in Middletown. Me any my environmental buddies are opposed to building there and are working with other groups to change the zoning and/or get the state to protect the land. However we are not opposed to industry, we just want them to use the many abanndonned sites/brownfields already inside the city (a more expensive? option). Does this opposition to new devolopment make us NIMBIEs or are we people who are promoting a less destructive alternative? What is the differance between a NIMBY and someone who wants to limit sprall/unreasonable devolopment?
Because you live in jersey, not CT you’re not a NIMBY (not in MY backyard). If you were opposed to the industry you’d be a BANANA (build absolutely nothing absolutely near anywhere). Most likely you are liberal who believes it’s the government’s job to buy up all land that is remotely green (Gov. Paris Glendining is an good example).
I do go to school here for 8 months out of the year and the locale was a factor in my school choice so its like my "other" back yard. Its also a really nice winderness in a region that dosen't have many left. I am opposed to the build, trash, move, build again attitude of most industries and the bend over backwards attitude govermnent takes to accomidate them.
Here's the situation: In the greater City of Middletown, CT there is a large track of land (3000 acres) in the Southern part of the city (around the Partt and Whittney Plant) that the city is trying to attract industrial devolopment to. Its is rugged (for Connecticut) and basically unsuited for industrial devolopment, but the town has zoned it industrial and is planning to install an 3-5 mile sewer line
extention to serve what is now a big forrest. If anybody does want to build there it will riun the last piece of open space in Middletown. Me any my environmental buddies are opposed to building there
and are working with other groups to change the zoning and/or get the state to protect the land. However we are not opposed to industry, we just want them to use the many abanndonned sites/brownfields already inside the city (a more expensive? option). Does this opposition to new devolopment make us NIMBIEs or are we people who are promoting a less destructive alternative?
I know the area you're talking about, and it does seem to be rather unsuitable for large-scale industry. No, I wouldn't say that you're a NIMBY, even if you did live near the area in question. There are valid reasons for opposing the plan above and beyond the mere selfishness that characterizes true NIMBYs:
(1) The land is too rugged.
(2) It's the only remaining significant section of forest land in Middletown.
(3) There indeed are a number of available brownfield sites.
(4) Connecticut's industrial base has been eroding for years. Absent some major changes in the state's tax and regulatory structure, not to mention some signficant transportation improvements, Connecticut is not likely to become a hotbed of industry any time soon. Regarding transportation, the old Connecticut River rail line runs past the area in question, but has been abandoned for so long any re-use is unlikely.
What is the differance between a NIMBY and someone who wants to limit sprall/unreasonable
devolopment?
(What is the differance between a NIMBY and someone who wants to limit sprall/unreasonable devolopment? )
Someone who wants to limit sprawl and unreasonable development will favor HIGHER densities, perhaps in association with the preservation of natural land, because these concentrate people and businesses in places accessible by walking and transit, and reduced the amount of paved over area.
A true suburban NIMBY will favor zoning everything or, if necessary, accepting very low density high cost housing, to keep out the poor. And push necessary services onto someone else.
By denifinition, everyone who opposes the fairly dense re-development of already paved over urban land in the vicinity of mass transit is a NIMBY. NYC is over-run with them, generally affluent people who grew up in the suburbs and think Manhattan or Brooklyn is Darien.
I generally agree. I would mention that I think one can support building new parks in a very dense city like NY without feeling too guilty about sprawl. And NIMBYs seem to hate parks, too, oddly enough.
NIMBIEs? What does that stand for?
Not In My Beautiful Immediate Envrionment
The S.F. Giants paid for their own stadium. Public money wasn't drained for their benefit. It was used to make transit improvements instead.
Don't tell that to SAllam
Peace
ANDEE
You DO realize you're about two to three weeks late, eh?
They abandoned New York and caused the Polo Grounds Shuttle to close thereby necessitating the sealing of the Sedgwick Av. tunnel this year.(rant) I can't back a team which caused abandonment of NYCTA services.
As far as I'm concerned, I hope the S.F.Giants NEVER win the World Series. The Red Sox have the "Curse of the Bambino", the SF Giants have the "Curse of the Polo Grounds Shuttle".
Go Oakland A's, or any other team!!!
Go Oakland A's, or any other team!!!
Keystone Pete and I resent that. The A's left Philly at the dawn of the TV era because the stinkin' Yankees didn't want a competing market within 100 miles of their kingdom.
That's why I put down "any other team". Anyone else but the SF Giants.
That had to be the absolutely stupidest rant I have ever read. And I read a LOT of Sallam's posts.
-Hank
Where's your sense of humor Hank? This was obviously a "tongue in cheek" rant for crying out loud.
The Giants left Manhattan after the 1957 season because attendance was rotten, and they didn't even commmand a majority of fans in their own borough. They drew less than 700,000 each of their last two seasons in New York. They had to get out. The Dodgers, on the other hand, drew over a million fans for 13 straight years, and they were far and away the top tv attraction in New York. Theirs was a stab in the back to the people of Brooklyn. New York now has the Mets, and I would trade both the Dodgers and Angels to have the Mets out here.
But the Giants only left because the Dodgers dragged them out with them. Branch Rickey talked them into going.
-Hank
The Giants were preparing to move to Minneapolis where a new stadium had been built in 1956. Walter O'Malley talked Horace Stoneham out of that spot and convinced him to continue their rivalry on the Pacific Coast. BTW, the Giant-Dodger rivalry of New York was and is the greatest sports rivalry ever. Boy did they ever hate each other.
Which is why Bobby Thompson's HR is widely considered the greatest moment in the history of the game.
I hate NY baseball teams, but the episode of Ken Burn's Baseball documentary about the 1950's, titled "the capital of baseball," is great to watch. If the Phils, lousy as they are, ever left Philly, I'd definitely be grumpy about it 45 years later.
They aren't too fond of each other out there, either..do you remmeber Fred when Juan Marachal cracked his bat over Johnny Roseboro's head? Yeah...having said that..its just not the same when two teams in the same town would play each other 22 times a year....
O'Malley is one of the BIGGEST jerks in baseball history [and Im not even a Dodger or National League fan!]. Not only did he SCREW Stoneham over moving to SF {he LITERALLY showed Stoneham, who was a real big drunk, the Candlestick Park site at the ONE time of day when there wasnt any wind}, but he also basically positioned himself as the guy in the background with the real power in MLB for YEARS..He was basically responsible for baseball holding down the players so badly that they finally ended up getting a guy named Marvin Miller as their union leader, and we all know whathappened there....But mostly, he really NEVER intended on staying in Brooklyn at all! He did a MASTERFUL job of stalling, shucking and jiving the city government, until he could approval in LA for his stadium [and of course finding a stooge to move to the Left Coast with him...] O'Malley absolutely knew what a gold mine LA would be for a major league baseball team, and couldnt wait to grab it......
Stoneham, was going to go, he talked O Malley into leaving
The building of stadiums with public money is a time-honored tradition in the U.S. It's an amazing program of socialism for capitalists. Karl Marx and J.P. Morgan would both be proud of such an altruistic endeavor. Tax dollars for stadiums is another case of municipalities being legally blackmailed. It's the old story of not wanting to be the elected official held 'responsible' for the loss of a sports franchise. The Brooklyn and Staten Island minor league stadiums are particularly troubling because they are being built on the unproved premise that minor league ball will have long-term popularity. What does the city do 5 years from now if interest wains in minor league play.
Camden's building one, too. I saw it from PATCO today; it's just south of the Ben Franklin Bridge.
They are fun to go to & the price is right too ... I'm been to Providence, Norwich, Trenton, New Haven, & Scranton.
2001 maybe Binghanton, Bridgeport or New Britian, but not SI or LI as we can't justify staying overnight to the wives :-(
Our key is to stay in the hotel that the away team uses ... and get to talk to some of the players ... can't do that at the majors.
Mr t
Rochester has a nice new railfan friendly ballpark also - it has a GREAT view of the old Conrail/NYC main line with the Rochester skyline in the background- BEAUTIFUL! Its amazing how busy that line truly is - no wonder Amtrak has problems wanting to schedule more service on that line...Thurston - haven't been to Hudson Valley [Fishkill] yet? How about the NJ Cardinals in Sussex County?
(Rochester has a nice new railfan friendly ballpark also.)
NY State built the new ballparks in Upstate Cities, using money collected in large part in New York City. NYC received absolutely nothing in return. New York State contributed not one dime to either of NYC's minor league stadia.
Are you talking about ball parks or colleges ?
I thought the major league team built the parks.
Mr t__:^)
(Are you talking about ball parks or colleges ? I thought the major league team built the parks.)
Nope. They don't build their own anything.
Larry, What about Trenton & Norwich (two new ball parks) ?
BTW, I guess that's why the Raven's at NH are making so much noise about leaving town (very old & small ball park).
Mr t__:^)
Riverside Park in Harrisburg, home of the Eastern League Senators, is located on City Island in the middle of the Susquehanna, and is owned by the city. The ballpark is only about 13 years old, and has been expanded numerous times. The Senators are wildly popular in Central PA. This may be because of a long streak of championships, which ended only this season. They were Class AA Eastern League champions in their 1st year of this current franchise (1987) when affiliated with the Pirates. In 1991, they switched affiliations to the Expos, which resulted in the hawking of LaBatts beer in the stands, and another championship in 1993. In 1996, the city, under the auspices of the city's equally wildly popular mayor, Steven Reed (who presides over a Democratic island within the sea of Republicanism that is south central PA, but who gets high marks from them anyway for turning the city around after the dismal 1970s), bought the team to keep it from moving to Springfield, Mass. The burg was subsequently rewarded with 4 straight league titles, 1996-1999. I am as equally satisfied, but in a different way, in going to a Senators game as I am going to see the Mets at Shea. Of course the ballpark is smaller, and the exposure much less, but you can't beat a down-home ballgame. It is unfortunate that so many minor league teams, which have a unique ability to foster community spirit, move around so much.
Thanks Pete for the endorsement, I've passed a copy on to my friends, so maybe I'll see you there next summer ?
BTW, we do a two game thing, so we'll need something to do between games (Harrisburg has a lot of rail activity still going on ?) and somewhere nice to eat before the second game.
I would love to here from you off-line with more detail !
Mr t__:^)
Thurston:
I'll email you in more detail later, but I'd love to coordinate a hometown trip (I live in NY now) next summer to meet you for a Senators game and some railfanning. NS/Conrail has one active bridge which traverses City Island just south of the ballpark, but I'm not sure how often it is used -- probably mostly at night. There's also Enola Yard, a couple miles north on the West Shore. They have built a railfan-specific bridge over the yard there, in fact, which I have yet to visit. There are also some east shore yards which are active, and about which Jersey Mike might be more knowledgable. Also, Conrail's Rockville Bridge, the longest stone-arch bridge in the world, is north of the city. Amtrak's Keystone Service takes you to the former PRR Station, which is a landmark and has a GG-1 sitting on an inactive track and other small exhibits within the station. Ther is some Conrail and Amtrak activity there too. If you can spare the time, the Rockhill Trolley Museum is an hour or so west of Harrisburg. You could go see the bullet car you asked about and speak to my friends there about your common interest and your experiences at Shoreline.
Cheers!
KP
Why would you tell Thurston about the Rockhill Trolley Museum and not say anything about the East Broad Top RR??
No reason, really. Though I appreciate and enjoy tourist steam railroads, my personal interest focuses more on electric railroading. Also, Thurston and I have communicated in the past, so I know for sure he's interested in trolleys. He may very well gain equal enjoyment from steam too! I do remember having loads of fun as a kid exploring the roundhouse at EBT and the steam locomotives within it. Railpace has an article on EBT in this, or maybe last, month's issue.
Pete is right, although I did have a very enjoyable time at Steamtown USA at Scranton (also stayed in Lackawanna Station, a HOTEL now).
The group of friends who I go with are not railbuffs, although I got them each some handle time at Branford when we did the New Haven Ravens this year. Also found a 1st class italian resturant on the north side of town ... 5 minutes after I got into the ball park lot it closed, i.e. they don't do fast food.
The point is they aren't going to tollerate me driving around looking a bridges, yards, etc. Has to be tourist style for them. Now if it was going to be a 3/4 Ton Crew trip, the opposite would be true.
I do apprecicate all the input very much & hope the others here that are reading this will consider doing just what I do as 2 or 3 day week-end adventure (who says a vacation has to last a week ?), and why not take also the wife or kids. (my kids are too big, the wife hates those dirty old trains & baseball, so I go with the guys ... took the wife to Disney World this year). Isn't life great ?
Mr t__:^)
Despite how they made us all look in the currently-playing movie "Lucky Numbers," Harrisburg does have some very classy restaurants downtown these days. I always thought it should have more than enough fancy restaurants. After all, the state legislators have to have somewhere to divvy up the pork, as it were. Anyway, a just-baseball trip sounds good to me too. We'll eat downtown at the Firehouse Restaurant or similar place. Perhaps you could choose a weekend when the Ravens are in town. Or perhaps the New Britain Rock Cats or the Norwich Navigators, as I'm not sure where your fandom lies.
KP
"Rochester has a nice new railfan friendly ballpark also"
And to keep this on the rail topic, the Schaumburg* Flyers minor league team have their ballpark right next to a Metra commuter station. The parking lot between the station and the stadium is used for commuter and baseball parking depending on the time of day. And Metra promotes the Flyers in the timetables for that particular line (Milwaukee West).
*Schaumburg is a major suburb of Chicago, typically thought of as strictly the postwar sprawl around the I90-Ill.53 junction and Woodfield Mall. But it also has a portion of town some miles away along the commuter line. Not unlike Downers Grove and Naperville, textbook "tale of two cities" suburbs:
(1) walkable storefront commercial area (still busy, with a good mix of stores, chain and individually-owned) centered around the commuter train station, surrounded within walking distance by a district of (very desireable) older and old-style houses along tree lined narrow streets with sidewalks, and
(2) a few miles away by the tollway, an endless sprawl of strip malls, land-gobbling low-rise office parks, and maze-street no-sidewalk subdivisions.
In such towns, you would hardly guess that the two radically different environments are the same community.
Lou, I think Rochester is on our list, but in any case I passed it on to our trip coor. Thanks for the tip.
Mr t__:^)
"...been to Providence..."
That's PAWTUCKET!
Sorry for continuing an off-topic thread, but I have to defend my hometown ;)
I said "...been to Providence..." You said "That's PAWTUCKET!"
You are absolutely right. Ever been to the OLD ball park there ?
Our hotel was just down the road, literaly. Didn't say the "Poor Soxs" home town because I didn't think anyone would know what I was talking about.
We did Brown Univ. between games, broke into the computer shop, well we didn't actualy break in, but we did get into it when no one was around. Had a very nice lunch at a waterfront place in Providence.
No railfaning that year, but a lot of the opposing team players were hanging out in the bar at night, was a very nice week-end.
Am not sorry for off topic, as heading gives everyone the choice NOT to click on this thread.
Mr t__:^)
True; the subject should be a fair warning.
I've been to McCoy Stadium literally hundreds of times, especially when the Columbus Clippers were in town. I don't really remember the days of Wade Boggs and Roger Clemens in PawSox uniforms, since I was only 4, but I did see them play there, and I did get to meet Mo Vaughn and others by lingering around the clubhouse door after the games. The "new" park is the "old" park, although extensively renovated. I haven't been to the new one yet.
"Poor Sox?" They didn't always used to be as bad as they are. And they beat Rochester 25-2 one game last year, and they usually beat the Ded Sox in their annual exhibition game (for what that's worth).
RI isn't the state for the railfan. You can occasionally see some retired Amtrak coaches in work service (? or just abandoned?) along I-95, and the now-closed Pawtucket-Central Falls station is a sight. Other diversions, if you're ever there again, are an abandoned rail tunnel, featured at Dark Passage, and the College Hill bus tunnel (1912), which has the closest thing to a subway station in the state, the tiled bus stop at North Main Street and Washington Plaza. BTW, my handle is a bus route: #42, Downtown Pawtucket, via Hope Street/East Avenue, via Tunnel. And it terminates at, appropriately enough, Main Street and Roosevelt Avenue!
(The Brooklyn and Staten Island minor league stadiums are particularly troubling because they are being built on the unproved premise that minor league ball will have long-term popularity. What does the city do 5 years from now if interest wains in minor league play.)
Perhaps in that case City residents will get to use the stadiums. Do you know that after the City hands over the stadiums to the teams for nothing, city residents will have to pay big bucks to use them? That's right, the Mets and Yanks can hold out for high prices if ever the NYC schools want to hold a high school game on "their" fields.
Constrast with the USTA, which built the National Tennis Center with it's own money, but opens the facility at cost to all 50 weeks per year.
Do you know that after the City hands over the stadiums to the
teams for nothing, city residents will have to pay big bucks to use them? That's right, the Mets and Yanks can hold out for high prices if ever the NYC schools want to hold a high school game on "their" fields.
I still can't figure out why the City got into these deals in the first place. Somebody must be getting payoffs, I fear.
In Sunday's Bronx Metro section there is an article on the East 239th Street Yard. (#2 line). It states that dozens of wooden rail ties are rotted away & crumbling."Railroad spikes lay on their sides, while others were easily removed with the slightest lift of a finger". Warped rails. No supports under some of the rails. The rails move just by stepping on them. Fear that new R142's will derail.
They could increase the capacity on Lex by short running 12 car trains on the Manhattan part. This would require lengthening 9 stations. Actually SB 125th, 86th and Bowling Green and NB Wall St. could remain 10 car. The trains could terminate on the middle track of 138th or 149th Street, 4 wouldn't skip 138 in this case. I believe that currently during the rush hour they terminate some 4 & 5 trains at Bowling Green.
Arti
Realistically, 12 car trains only make sense if the entire IRT had it's stations extended to accomodate them. Extending only a few would limit their ability to be rerouted in case of emergency.
1/9 and 3 can't discharge passangers at some stops from all the cars.
Arti
That can be done because only one half of the train can be opened. It's a lot harder to prevent only 2 of 12 cars from opening at only a few stops.
Good article in the daily news Sunday edition Bronx and Manhatan http://www.nydailynews.com/2000-10-22/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-85248.asp
Demolition Post.
Can anyone tell me what CTCSS tone PATH uses?
I don't know the answer off hand, but some radio equipment can scan for PL tones. See if yours has this feature.
ummm, what do CTCSS and PL stand for?
CTCSS=Continuous Tone Coded Squelch System. PL=Private Line is Motorola's brand name for the same thing. It is an inaudable tone in the transission which unsquelches radios tuned to the same frequency and CTCSS tone. It reduces interference in radio communications.
I have a chance to buy a book called ; "THE FRANKLIN AVE. EL OR SHUTTLE", by Philip Copp. It was published a few years ago by Four Oceans Press, Maplewood, N.J. Does anyone own a copy and is it worth buying?
ELKEEPER
Whoa!! ELKEEPER. You should be aware that "The Franklin Avenue El or Shuttle" is a SECTION or CHAPTER of a much larger book called "Silver Connections: Volume 2", which is a very good reference source on the BRT/BMT elevated systems.
So far as I know the section on the Franklin Shuttle has not been offered as a separate book. I'd be careful before I put down some serious dough on that item.
BMTman
to all one dimensional foamers and thought police: IGNORE THE FOLLOWING: The ***AWESOME***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S*** are on the march, Game 4 will see the conclusion of World series 2000, as for the mets fans; RESISTANCE IS FUTILE, YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED the mets scrapped the redbirds (cardinals) but they are no match for the ***AWESOME***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S, the BEST team FOR all time!!!
I think Sojo was holding a balloon last night with el Duque that said Mets in 3000. I don't even think they'll get one till then.
Yanks in 4...
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
Since it looks like I'm going to deal with the Subway Series talk for the next 10 days or so (GO ORIOLES!!!), and I've been wondering this anyway, I might as well post.
Just redid the main page on my web site for the Subway Series and it has a poll. Please take it and answer the three questions. Non-railfans are taking this as well! If you have time, please visit my web site!
Thanks!
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/
Yesterday Amtrak simluated a train crash in the Wilmington electric complex. It was complete with "hazmats" and "woulded". It was suposted to be caused by a weapon of mass destruction. I saw the footage on the Channel 6 news and lo and behond the "crashed" train consisted of former Metroliner (TM) EMU's that still retained their pantographs and were not in the R/W/B Amtrak paint scheeme but rather in the PC/PRR grey. Maybe that Cho kid can fill in the details.
"It was suposted to be caused by a weapon of mass destruction."
Not unless you're talking about the atomic bombing of Wilmington, in which case the derailing of a single Amtrak train would be the least of the concerns of the police, emergency services, etc.. "Weapon of mass destruction" is the new term for what used to be called NBC (nuclear, biological, chemical) weapons. http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mctl98-2/p2intro.pdf
In other words, "weapon of mass destruction" is NOT simply a fancy synonym for "bomb" or "explosive device".
Actually, considering your penchant for living in the past, I'm surprised you didn't use the appropriate 19th Century euphemism for a bomb: "infernal machine". :)
Those were Channel 6's words, not mine. Channel 6 is Action News so they need to make things sound exciting. Its seems to work because they have been the #1 news service in the Delaware valley since the late 50's.
-There goes that news van again.
From what I saw on Channel 6 only one of the cars was in the old (i.e. non red/white/blue) scheme and the other, closer to the camera, was in the striped scheme.
By the way, Channel 6 has only been the number 1 news station in the Phila area since the mid-70's when the Action News theme took over. 6 was prominent in the late 50's/early 60's, then lost to 10 (John Facenda, also known to many as the voice of NFL Films), and then to 3, before 6 took over to stay.
Some Amtrak official probably read this MB and my tirade about my Vermonter trip and then desided to SPITE me. As of the winter timetable the Vermonter (TM) will NO LONGER STOP AT MY STATION, Meriden, CT. Around the Holidays the Vermonter is the New Englande college train service Dartmouth, the Amhearst complex, stuff in Hartford, WESLEYAN and Yale. Well it looks like Amtrak thinks that our bussiness isn't important any more and is having the only train that connects with the 2:20 Peter Pan bus not stop at the station. I use the Vermonter to visit friends at Amhearst and now I will be hard pressed to to find a ride home from either New Haven or Hartford (I can catch it up with a bus, but to return involved a 5 hour layover). Its hard enough trying to find a relyable friend to pick me up at Meriden. Does anyone know a good place to complain to and to point out all the bussiness my university provides Amtrak?
Well, perhaps Amtrak decided they only wanted the business of college students who didn't complain about people occupying seats after paying their fare, or maybe they only want college students who can spell :-)
Seriously (and you really should check your spelling and grammar before posting or writing to Amtrak - seriously), I think you'll find an address on Amtrak's website. Write a letter or an email and let them know what you think. At the very least they should write you back with an explanation (note I didn't say a good explanation).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not even the World Series can bring just 1 new train to the 7 line. This makes no sense. If the 4 line can get 1 special train then theres no reason why the 7 cant get 1 special train. Concourse yard is also as old as the corona yard and they ran 1 special train ohh well thats the MTA for you. Since the 7 line is increasing its express service starting Monday Nov 6th, from 5 AM to 10 PM they should see some R 36 cars from pelham returning home. The 7 line WILL NOT have enough coverage for all this increased service.
One reason the R142 went to the 4 was because it can easily be rerouted there from the 2. It would take much more time to get an R142 from the 2 or to get an R142A from the 6 over to the 7.
There is a 142 at Corona yard with the Mets logo and colors on it. It will run on Tues. and Wed. and Thurs. if necessary.
Time: approximately 00:55:00 to 01:10:00
Place: Queensboro Plaza, Ditmars Blvd. bound 'N' Train
C/R Announcement: "Attention, please, Ladies and Gentlemen. Due to a Presidential motorcade in the vicinity of Astoria Boulevard, we are being held in the station momentarily. We hope to be moving shortly."
I guess our mayor is not the only one who is overly paranoid about security when it comes to the subway.
Here's a doozie:
I was on a Rockaways-bound A train at Euclid Avenue when I hear the following over the PA:
"Ladies and gentlemen, for the protection of the President of the United States, this Rockaways-bound A train is being held here momentarily."
A few minutes later, another A train pulls up on the local track and the PA says:
"Ladies and gentlemen, the Lefferts Boulevard-bound train on the local track will be leaving first."
A minute later, with both A trains still at Euclid Avenue, I hear:
"Ladies and gentlemen, the Rockaway-bound A train will be leaving first. Stand clear of the closing doors, please."
The Rockways-bound A train did leave first.
I later told this story to my American History teacher around the time he was talking about the time President Kennedy was assassinated, and he said that becauser the motorcade was crossing under the Belt Parkway to get to Kennedy Airport, they had to stop the trains so that no one on the trains has the opportunity to shoot the President. That's what happened to your N train.
That's happened before. It's a ridiculous security precaution, and if it is "really" necessary, then the President should never drive into the city. The inconvienece doesn't justify it.
What's ridiculous is that people will complain about a brief hold but do little or nothing about door-holders who cause delays or discharges or those filthy slobs who litter. Here in downtown DC, we routinely are interrupted by motorcades of various levels of dignitaries and seldom is there any kind of noticeable disruption. Maybe the obvious is more readily understood here -- if something terrible were to happen, it would really screw things up for a lot longer.
What I object to is the complete lack of interest in the inconvienence a presidential trip into NYC creates. They often close traffic at the most inopportune times, and cause havoc with street and vehicular traffic.
If world peace isn't on the line, the president should plan his trips AROUND US, not vice versa.
What time would be less inconvenient than 1 AM?
the president should plan his trips AROUND US, not vice versa.
So he should only take trips around the US and not visit foreign countries? :-)
LOL
I remember when the President was in the South Bronx a year or 2 back they stopped the No.2,5,and 6 Lines. I just made it past pulling into Castle Hill Ave Northbound before stopping service from Parkchester to Hunts Point Ave.
When he comes to visit Boston they have to shut down the tunnels from East Boston and the Airport plus the Blue Line which runs under the ramps. That brings everything between Boston and East Boston to a halt. The tunnels back up the Central Artery, which itself has to be closed, creating a further tie-up. Then the downtown streets he travels are impacted so nobody can go anywhere. The backup can reach up to 10 miles out in no time. (Of course if he comes at Rush Hour nobody notices!)
Gerry
2 or 3 weeks ago when Gore had dinner at Jon BonGiovi's house, they closed the New Jersey Turnpike during rush hour! A co-worker's wife sat for 3 hours! She subsequently emailed Gore saying that she hoped he enjoyed his dinner, since she missed hers, and her two preschoolers were in bed before she got home. I have never understood why politicians seeking votes don't mind pissing off so many people.
Not only the Turnpike, but the Garden State Parkway as well, all the way to exit 109 (although Gore got off at 114). My wife was in the hospital in Red Bank at that time, directly across the river from BonJovi's house; we were able to see the festivities from the solarium windows. (Her room, nice as it was, had a view of the town rather than the river.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah right.....ol' Billy-Bob had Air Force One parked ont he runways at Los Angeles a few years ago, and waited for his hairdresser to come give him a haircut!!
In the meantime, all flights into or out of LAX had to hold....
I heard that there was a fire on a Metro-North line tonight, causing signal failures and therefore delays. Does anyone have any information on this?
- Lyle Goldman
It occurred around 59th St. Signals are affected. 2 tracks are out. Delays of 10-15 minutes expected thru Monday rush.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, I was stuck in at the station this morning along with another hundred other angry passengers for almost 1 hour. What I don't understand is why they charge passengers even after such a long delay. I know the conductors are just doing their jobs, but it's not fair to the passengers to be charged for a delay of almost 1 hour.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
The LIRR doesn't charge after about 45 minutes, but its the Conductor's decision (I think).
NJT's Atlantic City line is now bussing below Lindenwold from ca. 9 AM to 3:30 PM for their tie replacement program. Previous report (current on NJT's webpage) was bussing between Atco and A.C.
I had occaision to take PATCO off peak to Philly and back today. At 10 AM a NJT Atlantic City line train was in storage just below (southeast of) the platform and passengers were milling about busses signed Shuttle. At noon another train was stored in the same location and passengers were miling about looking for busses.
The T/O of my Philly-bound PATCO train checked all buttons and switches on the console prior to departing (cars 246-245, original 1968 Budds). On the way to Ashland station (first stop) he eased back on acceleration prior to reaching normal speed (65 mph), then pulled the control stick back to resume accelerating, which occurred 3 or 4 seconds later. He then pushed the stick forward to brake position and braking began in a fraction (less than one-half) of a second. Acceleration resumed again 3 or 4 seconds after pulled the stick back again.
My return PATCO train was cars 213-214, also Budds. Obviously PATCO isn't yarding its aging well-maintained Budd fleet during off peak hours.
Was it stored of the PATCO yard connection or the main line? They used to store the RDC's on that little siding. If that CMSL guy ever restores service to Lindenwold they will probably re-activate that siding (they might even service the RDC's in the PATCO shoppes, there's probably a lot in common.)
It was stored on the main line, which was out of service anyway for the tie replacement work.
Tony Macrie would like to connect his CMSL with NJT at Hammonton, where he grew up, and which is only about 3 miles from Winslow Junction.
Are there any plans to replace any of the aging equipment on PATCO? Some of it must be a little over 30 years old now.
The original 75 Budd-built cars are 32 years old and as of June 2000 were expected to last indefinitely. With updates and rebuilds, they are at least as good as new.
The link at the top of the main index on ST is busted. It leads to a "Cannot Find Server" error. Did it move or something?
Works for me sitting here at work...
-Dave
Still doesn't work via the link. Any alternate ways to get to it?
Well, you could try cutting and pasting http://astroland.nycsubway.org:8080/ into your browser. But if the link doesn't work, I doubt that will either.
Are you behind a firewall or proxy that disallows access to unusual ports, i.e. 8080? If you are, there's no amount of cajoling you'll be able to do with the URL to bypass that restriction. The server runs on port 8080.
Speak to your network admins or ISP help desk if you continue to have trouble. The archive has had about 8,000 hits in the past 30 days so it appears that the problem may be yours...
Hello,
I just heard on channel 7 that there is an LIRR DM engine that is on fire at the Huntington station.
The DM engine #503, which appeared to be hooked up to the back of the 4:19 Port Jefferson train, went up on fire at Huntington station at 5:21 PM.
I don't know if there were any injuries but I do know there are currently no trains going through Huntington station in both directions.
- Jose
This is the second one to burn up. The LIRR has a potentially big problem on their hands. Remember the song "And Another One Bites the Dust?" Can anybody spell: LEMON!
Oh Goody!!!!!!!! Lets bring back the GP-38-2s or some Ex Amtrak F 40s.......LIRR "D" units your days are numbered.
This is the second one to burn up. The LIRR has a potentially big problem on their hands. Remember the song "And Another One Bites the Dust?" Can anybody spell: LEMON!
I've got a solution: can anyone spell "PRIVATIZE?" (wink wink nudge).
Sometimes, privatization works great. Sometimes it doesn't. The English aren't too pleased with their privatisation experience...
How about 'Grumman Flxible'?
-Hank
The point of privatization is not that it makes the RR any better,
it's that the taxpayer does not have to pay for it.
The solution is not to privatize the LIRR, but the have MANAGEMENT accountable for their ACTIONS. This has been a burning issue for some time and every time the LIRR has a problem, there seems to be no one to blame in management. The LIRR, in its past history, use to be a privately run business until it could not pay all the costs for running a railroad. Now the railroad is basically subsidized through the state via the MTA. If they went private, they might have to cut back on service and raise fares to make a profit.
Hmmm...brand new equipment catching fire and frequent breakdowns. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the exact scenario that led to the quick demise of the TA Grumman bus fleet?
10/25/2000
I was thinking of a wild scenario.
Two fires on dual mode engines spark concern by LIRR brass. The railroad calls upomn EMD for help on this. EMD sends some technicians to look over the dual modes and find a potential hazardous situation where any dual mode can catch fire at any time. Someone leaks this to the union (BLE) and they raise a big stink. To be on the safe side the entire dual mode fleet gets pulled thus leaving a shortage of motive power. The LIRR contacts a leasing company and leases a few engines to fill the void, however dual mode service to Penn now gets shifted to Huntesrpoint. Now it gets real interesting, the leased engines are former LIRR GP-38-2's now in lease company paint returing home to Long Island!
WHAT GOES AROUND, COMES AROUND ?
This is only a wild scenario, maybe a worst case one at that. But if it really happened, it would kinda smart that the old driven into the ground GP-38's are being called home because their high tech counterparts do a spontanious combustion thing. Did FL-9's have a problem with fires ?
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS !!
The FL-9's most certainly DID have a problem with fires in the early days....but small ones at that. Most were shoe-beams igniting after a major arcing.
In any event, it wasn't considered serious enough to warrant a "recall" so to speak.
I'm surprised there hasn't been any media scrutiny over the DM's yet. It was quite a shock to see the first one on fire in Sunnyside.
I just love the LIRR's response. Today I got the 5:23 Long Beach train, changing to Ronkonkoma/Greenport at Jamaica. While we were waiting at Jamaica, the PA began annoucing that there was no service east of Hicksville on the Pt.Jefferson line due to "equipment failure." That's sure some failure. Anyway, the PA went on to announce that people should consider "other travel arrangements." Well duh, if you're on your way home, 'taint too easy to make other arrangements, now is it?
BTW - the platform at Hickville was jammed with bewildered commuters, and two trains were stopped on the viaduct without passengers, going nowhere. My train got to Ronkonkoma on time, but then my Greenport train was delayed for more than a half hour, waiting for the 5:41 connecting train. From what I heard, that train's delay was due in part to Pt.Jefferson delays spilling over onto the main line, and in part to a sick passenger at Bethpage (shades of the subway).
"The DM engine #503, which appeared to be hooked up to the back of the 4:19 Port Jefferson train, went up on fire at Huntington station at 5:21 PM."
On a positive note, at least the train was running on time.
Chuck
Yes at least those pax arrived on the advertised IT WAS THE REST OF THE RUSH HOUR that went into the can >G<.
Actually Charlie, that train was running "hot".
Those double deckers seem to be costly, and plauged with problems. On my last trip on the OB line, it took a few minutes just to get the doors closed.
They should've just electrified the whole RR. It would have been more reliable and cheaper in the long run. But of course the NIMBY's and special interests would never let it happen. So we are stuck with lousy service, thanks to narrow minded bigots.
How true this is that these loosers don't want their neighborhoods to become "bedroom communities" but just for the wealthy ones. They are afraid of "urban blight," but fail to realize the riding the train is not cheap for a poor person. They probably get around more so on the bus then the train.
Thankfully there were no injuries and the train was able to limp into Huntington to discharge its passengers.
Seems like these engines are nothing but fire traps. I posted two months ago an incident that my roommate had on the Oyster Bay bound train that had just left Penn station and was in the tunnel when the engine had experienced smoking conditions. When the train got out of the tunnel to the yard, they stayed there for almost an hour until the fire crew showed up. The railroad did not bring another train to switch them , but instead used the same equipment until they got to Jamaica and then they swtiched trains. Someone is soaking the MTA for these "lemons."
Newsday report on the DM30AC fire.
Is it Kosher to publish photos with recognizable people without their permission? Just asking, not complaining.
The Pick
Maybe a Yankee booger was trying to steal second.
It's certainly not illegal, contrary to what some people think.
Looks like that mexican guy on the left wasn't too pleased.
AY YI YI!!! THE GRINGO'S HAVE SPOTTED ME!!
Ok, I'm not here to defend the Clemens-Piazza thing, but instead...actually have a baseball post that I think is almost 100% on topic.
A yankees sweep is appropriate for the following 2 reasons:
1) Yankees are on the #4 line, so Yankees in 4 sounds great.
2) The ticker-tape parade for the SUBWAY series winner would likely be held (as long as the rain nor'easter doesn't get in the way) this Friday, on the IRT's 96th Anniversary.
GO YANKEES!! -Nick
3. The World Series would end on my birthday.
From a sports perspective, wild card teams don't even belong in the World Series, let alone the playoffs in the first place!!! But thats a whole different topic, e-mail me about it and we can discuss this in great detail.
GO ORIOLES!!!
Other people might want to read it.
Wild Card teams can be just as good as the other teams, maybe even better if they're unlucky enough to be in the same division as the team that would have won the pennant under the pre-1969 system.
especially when the NL East winner has won 9 straight division titles
And not much else....but that's like WAY off topic. Better leave that to the baseball newsgroups in usenet.
Asif the YAWN-kees actually played well enough
to EARN the victory.. all they did was sneak up
as the train was pulling into the station....
Methinks Rog needs to do the decaf j o b ASAP
before Mikey goes and sticks that splintered bat
where the sun don't...........
Asif the YAWN-kees actually played well enough
to EARN the victory.. all they did was sneak up
as the train was pulling into the station....
As I recall, it was the Mets who were trying to pull the victory in the ninth inning, and they missed their stop....GO YANKS!! -Nick
I'm rooting for the Yanks, but Clemens really is a nut log in post-season play -- remember the meltdown on the mound in Oakland back in the 1991 playoffs? He apparently also doesn't do very well in country and western bars in the greater Houston, Tex., area.
If the tabloids really wanted some great copy for the next few days, they ought to get Clemens to ride the No. 7 train to Shea. I think the fireworks would about equal the last 20 minutes of the Jets-Dolphins game this morning.
Clemens and Rocker do the #7 line, on the next episode of "Suicide Missions", here on the History Channel ...
There will be no sweep. Mets in 7 (how appropriate).
Can some1 tell me why LIRR Dumps their DE30's at the last stop but MNRR Doesn't dump their Genesis locos? Or do they? Can someone help me out? It would be greatly appreciated
bye
Dumps??
Are you asking about brakes?
Trainline or Engine Brakes??
Does anyone know how I would be able to get hold of one of the new posters paisted up on subway platform walls entitled "Pledge your Allegiance" subway series (I think Budweiser put them out).
I am interested in the smaller one, and will pay for it.
Michael B.
mjb69@columbia.edu
Uhm, I might know.
-Hank
Well, get me one too. :-)
The posters have been disappearing as fast as they are put up. They are now being put up inside the booth and even there some have vanished even though they are labeled as Booth property. Disclaimer- I dont have a poster and would not take from the booth.
Not even for your friends AFTER the series is over ?
I have a Millennial Journies one from last October. The gal in the booth wanted to sell me the one she had there, mine came off a chain link fence.
Mr t__:^)
Tbey are more precious than iridium. As part of our relief process we now have to sign a statement that the poster is taped inside the booth! If the poster is not there we have to call the Field Ofice--No Joke! (I even had *3* supervisors tell me tyhe same thing!)
I expect that when the time comes they will probably go to supervision or to whomever is there when the time comes.
I have already put out feelers since I too want one!
Tbey are more precious than iridium. As part of our relief process we now have to sign a statement that the poster is taped inside the booth! If the poster is not there we have to call the Field Ofice--No Joke! (I even had *3* supervisors tell me the same thing!)
I expect that when the time comes they will probably go to supervision or to whomever is there when the time comes.
I have already put out feelers since I too want one!
I've been to several floors at 130 Livingston Plaza, the cubicles are full of all sorts of posters & other adv. stuff, so I suspect you are right the TA suits will be grabbing the stuff just as fast (if not faster) then the buffs.
They are putting some on the back of our buses, have to ask if people are ripping them off too.
Mr t__:^)
In the yard(undisclosed location) on Tuesday, there were about 300 posters inside the advertising room which is normally left unlocked. After all, who steals ads?
Anyway, seven hours later, there were about 5 left with no ad men on duty. Hmmmmm, seems like everyone went for the five finger discount.
Yeah ! I saw a train that had posters in it. I say had! Half of the ad racks were empty and I presume they had the ad! I did get lucky- I found an ad, partially ripped on the floor of a subway car and did take that one)
If I find out any info I'll be glad to let everyone know.
You know, if the Transit Museum wanted to make some quick cash, this would be one certain way to do that. You probably couldn't print these fast enough.
--Mark
Agreed, I got my MetroCards 94 - 99 poster that way (had to buy something worth $30 & they gave it to me). I'll bet lots of folks would want one, meanwhile it would gererate a lot of "traffic" into the museum stores. To me it would be a win win. I know someone who works near the Brookly store, maybe he'll go in and talk to someone about this ... couldn't hurt !
Mr t__:^)
Me three :)
--Mark
Am I the only one on the board wondering why those posters show only (4) and (7) symbols? What happened to the (D)? Is there someone there in the Art Dept. who knoweth not the subways?
Bob Sklar
Well,to speculate: The D (and B, which also reaches Yankee Stadium) are INDs. I guess these cookie cutter lines don't have the same charm or romance. Also, the 4 has a much easier transfer to the 7 (both being IRTs, and that transfer having always been there and all.) And the 4 comes closer to Yankee stadium than do the B and D.
Or more likely, they just didn't know what the heck they were doing!
But even so, they should have included them.
:)Andrew
Because, the B and D aren't IRT and aren't the trains I would take from 161st to Willets Point if I was in a hurry and there were no delays on the 4.
The stop on the D train is not 161 Street/Yankee Stadium, but 161 Street/River Av. Plus the 4 ran up to the Bx before the D, and goes right by the stadium.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
The "official" TA name for the D station is 161 St/Yankee Stadium.
The River Av. signs were uncovered during the recent renovation. There are no plans to re-cover the name but also no plans to change the "official" name.
OK Clark, maybe you can answer this for me. When I was a kid (too many years ago to count), the BMT had a number code for its trains and my Sea Beach was #4. That's my handle as you know. Did the IRT have a number code in the 40's and 50's too? I know they used the low V's that didn't carry numbers. But did the IRT still have numbers for their trains and was the now #4 that number for the train that ran on that line? It would help if you could answer. When I returned to New York for the first time in 20 years in 1974, I asked if the #4 train still went to Coney Island and a number of people looked at me like I was some kind of nut. Some guy set me straight and said when the Chrystie Street connection went into effect, the BMT went into a letter code and it was the "N" I was looking for.
The current IRT number code came into use in 1948 with the arrival of the R-12s and R-14s. Since they were assigned to the Flushing line first, the first IRT number marking to be displayed was 7. I understand the R-12/14s may have been also used on the Astoria route before it became BMT-only, in which case the 8 marking would have been used. Markings for mainline routes began to appear in 1955 when the R-17s entered service on the 6.
Oh and Fred, I personally observed a few N trains of R-32s last week while at Stillwell Ave., and their side route signs do indeed say "N-Astoria/B'way/Sea Beach". And get this: 6095 at the Transit Museum was proudly sporting a 4 on the end facing the tunnel. Finally, one of the route signs on BMT standard 2204 was set to Sea Beach Exp.
Oh, Dear God, I wish I could have a picture of that. Steve, if you or anyone else visits the Transit Museum I just have to get a picture of 6095 with those numbers and markings for my collection. I missed that when I visited the TM in the summer of'99. I don;t know how I missed it. I could kick myself for it. Anyone out there, if you visit the Transit Museum, please take a color photo of 6095 with the #4 and Sea Beach Express on it, and please contact me. I will gladly pay you for such a picture.
Unfortunately, I didn't have my camera with me while at the museum. Again, 6095 had the 4 up front; the adjacent destination curtain was torn. BMT standard 2204 has one of its side route signs set to Sea Beach Exp. It's the one to the right of the center doors facing the platform, IIRC.
Here is a picture of 6095 as it currently appears at the NY Transit Museum.
6095 triplex
Thank you Andee. I just printed it and will add it to my collection. I believe this is a multi-sectional car, is it not? Someone told me there is a Triplex #4 6095 there as well. I hope to get a picture of that as well. Again thanks.
That IS 6095 it is a mutisectional (triplex). I will be working at the Transit Museum this weekend. I will take a current picture for you.
Peace,
ANDEE
PS_photo is coutesy of the BMT lines site, here's a link,
BMT LINES
Don't confuse a Triplex with a multisectional. While both were articulating units, with the Triplex having three sections and the multis five, there were differences. The multis were light enough so they could run on the older segment of the Fulton St. el while the Triplexes were way, way too heavy. None of the multis were salvaged; all were scrapped. Three Triplexes survive intact.
That photo shows 6095 exactly as I saw it last week.
Thanks for the clarification on the multisectionals. I grew up in The Bronx, know very little about the BMT
Peace,
ANDEE
Guess what's been seen on the TV in Baltimore - New Yawkers, the Gov, Mets, Yankee's (singing " I Love.....) and.......REDBIRDS!!!!
The commercial (courtesy of the New York State Tourist Board) shows various man (and woman) on the street shouting Go Yankees!! or Let's go Mets!!!, the Gov, suitably attired in a baseball jacket (no logo) while sitting in a seat in a ballpark (Not mentioned which one) and saying what a wonderful place NY is and how great to have the Subway Series.
The ending is someone holding a baseball close to the camera, while a train of shiny, sparkling Redbirds pulls out.
Hay Dan, catch the fever yet ... take mass transit here all the way.
Mr t__:^)
A thread with a similar title was active several weeks ago.
Someone posted information about changing couplers but I can't seem to find that particular post, and thus can not send the poster an Email. The purpose was to even the spacing between cars, and make the train look more realistic.
Who did post the info about replacing long (operating) couplers with short (dummy) couplers?
A thread with a similar title was active several weeks ago.
Someone posted information about changing couplers but I can't seem to find that particular post, and thus can not send the poster an
Email. The purpose was to even the spacing between cars, and make the train look more realistic.
Who did post the info about replacing long (operating) couplers with short (dummy) couplers?
I believe it was frank Gatazka, who apparently is affilliated with MTH.
Thanks Steve! In checking, I see that he does not show an Email address, so I guess I am out of luck.
not necessarilly. Check the MTH website at www.mth-railking.com
Likely, there'll be an e-mail to their custoer service.
I didn't think of that. I'll give it a try.
A friend of mine from Jamaica Shop went to the TCA event in York, PA. last weekend. He bought us each a set of the dummy couplers @ $6.00 per pair. I'll pick them up this weekend and let you know how they work out.
Steve
I can't believe that we were writing about the same thing at the exact same time. As you can see from my last post from a few minutes ago, I will be most anxious to hear how you make out with the conversion.
I'll send you a detailed report (and photos) via e-mail
Thank You, if I get to do the job, I plan on leaving the operating coupler on the front of the power car, and the rear of the last car. The four couplers should be enough for a six car set that way. You better believe that I will be trying them on my layout while I have them!
Steve, thanks for the info. I would like to know how those couplers turn out, too.
BMTman
Not a problem. I will try to do the conversion over the weekend.
Steve
Also, don't forget to try Model SubTalk found by clicking on the main www.nycsubway.org webpage and working your way through various subway sources to find the link.
BMTman
It's a technical question on R-42 D train cars that belong to a friend who is without internet access. I've sent MTH Service an Email and will wait to see if they answer. I've found from experience that some places never answer Email. Dept 56 is a good example!
It was my post. You can contact MTH directly (try starting at their home page: www.mth-railking.com and work your way from there. Or, you can call them at 410-381-2580. MTH makes replacement "short" dummy couplers for these cars that can be interchanged with the long "operating" couplers so that the car spacing will be equal. You will give up the ability to automatically uncouple the married pairs though. In obtaining the replacement couplers, you may need to send MTH your original couplers. BTW, I AM NOT affiliated with MTH. As a member of the New York Model Transit Association I HAVE been working closely with MTH on their upcoming NYCTA subway car projects (R-21 and R-32) though. These promise to be even better than the R-42's!! Good luck!
I did indeed go to the MTH website, and sent an eMail to their service dept last night at the suggestion of one of the other subtalkers. I have not heard back yet, but it has been less than 24 hours.
Have you ever made this coupler switch, and if you have, can it be done without taking the car apart or removing the truck? I am concerned about the length of the coupler shaft (the T shaped plunger) not being able to clear the floor of the car on removal without taking the truck off the car. I should explain that the cars are not mine, and are not in my possession. I am going by what I remember from seeing them. A friend has grumbled about his cars, and the spacing difference ever since he got them, he bought 4 dummy couplers from MTH last week at the York train show (he should have gotten six), and now he is afraid to make the switch because of the plunger problem. I have offered to do the job for him, but he does not want me to disassemble the cars. He apparently needs assurance that the cars don't have to be disassembled before he will give them to me to make the change.
This was in Friday's Newsday from Jimmy Breslin's column, which kind of fits in with the Broadway El thread and the World Series threads currently going. Apparently, Breslin is a J/M/Z fan like a lot of us.
Breslin Newsday Column 10-20-00
I am getting so much spam in my email and I'm wondering if
it's coming from my posts in Subtalk/Bustalk since this is the only place I post. So I am putting nospam before my email address. To email me, just remove the "nospam".
It's too late once your name is in the system the amount of SPAM will increase at an exponential rate. Try using a filter to block key words in subjects. Here's what's worked for me:
XXX
$
Casino
Diploma
sex
loan
Blocking $ really made a differance!
I post to Subtalk more often (I was #2, remember?), yet I get no spam.
Do you post to USENET or other boards? With USENET they really get you.
Hey, check your user setting in Explorer. If you've told it who you are, every site you visit has your email address.
And have you considered that much of the spam goe s to all users of your ISP?
-Hank
Haven't posted to usenet since last winter.
That could STILL be causing problems. Once your address is out there, there's no taking it back.
Yup, that's for sure.....maybe we should tell John about DejaNews?? Not only are your Usenet posts there, but anypost made by someone else quoting your original post shows up when you search under your username that you posted to Usenet under.
No getting around being archived at DejaNews unless you know the "x-no-archive: yes" thing.
You can also nuke things manually in case you forget.
And somebody quoting you will cause your messages to appear w/o x-no-archive.
My biggest source of spam is eBay, where I use a different email address than the one I use here. It generates about 90% of the crap I get, which I've never bothered to filter.
My wife gets much, much more, thanks to some boards she visits that (in the fine print) reveal that they market the addresses of all registered users. Thank G-d that Dave doesn't do that!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was working the M train on Monday. I was boarding my train at Metropolitan Avenue getting ready to make my last half trip to Bay Parkway. When I entered my train, there was an individual with a video recorder at the railfan window. Guess who it was?
The one and only SALAAM ALLAH!!!!!
I talked to him from Met to Broad Street. I found him to be a really nice guy(no, I was not drinking or using and I left the "liquid paper" alone. And NO, disinfectant was NOT necessary). Even though his posts can be a bit hard to read and he posts messages that some of you are'nt too crazy about, the conversation that we had and my impression of him was definitely the opposite of what you may think. In my opinion, the bottom line is that he is an individual that really loves trains and is truly a dedicated railfan.
So now instead of spending money on subway series items, I'm going to get a custom made t-shirt that says "I SURVIVED SALAAM ALLAH!!" :)
heypaul already has one of those shirts.
I have found it a very rewarding experience to meet SubTalkers. Some have become very close friends, but you are correct, my opinion has changed many times after meeting a SubtTalker face to face.
Mr t__:^)
Does this mean that Operation Redbird is in full swing?
If Salaam gets the chance he should try and get passing shots of the #4 R-142 Yankee wrapped train and the same on the #7 line.
BMTman
Can't be .. the M has no Redbirds :)
--Mark
10/25/2000
[Can't be .. the M has no Redbirds :)
Maybe no redbirds, but the (M) has railfan windows, and lotsa neat curves and elevated views to make anyone travel 3000 miles !
Bill "Newkirk"
Why did you give away the answer so fast? I thought this thread was going to be a guessing game!
I have been wondering about him. This was the week that he was supposed to be doing all of his taping. If you saw him on the M that means he must have already done the J if I remember his schedule correctly!
" last half trip to Bay Parkway."
What does that mean? HALF TRIP???
A "trip" is short for a round trip(i.e. most crews on the A line make 2 trips). A half trip would mean a one way trip(half round trip).
Hi, zman,
Could you do me a favor?
On June 7th, I was taking pictures at Myrtle Avenue station. Your colleague, Mr. Richard Jimenez, operated an M train. He saw me take pictures and wanted me to take a picture of him sitting in a cab.
I mailed two pictures to him the next week. I don't know whether he likes them. Could you tell him about this?
Thanks a lot.
Chaohwa
I've got the next two days off but when I return to work, I'll try to let him know. Only thing is that I do not know what shift he works.
How much do you get for that "T" shirt sir? by the way my amtrak train returned me & my wife back home safe & sound !!slow boring homebound trip because an inspection found some crack in the axle on our coach
our axle broke in kansas city so our superliner car was discarded etc.
The video turned out great 10 hours night & day of the J M L trains..
the rest including shooting thru the cab of a r 62 # 6 line past city hall station ( yes the original ) thanks to mr newkirk mark w south ferry the coney island tour etc..zman179
r21-22 r-32 subwaysurf & the unamed motorman of the # 6 line!!
i porbably shot up to 40 hours of video total !!
OK. First of all, I don't even begin to pretend there's anything "official" here. Who knows if a full length 2nd Ave line will ever be built. But if it is...
The part above 63rd St wouldn't need a new color. It would just be yellow (for the Q). But should we get the whole enchilada, I say it should be pink.
Well, can you think of any other color that's not too close to the ones already in use?
:)Andrew
Fantasy time. OK, given train traffic and ridership patterns, I believe the Water Street portion of the route is unnecessary. The 2nd Avenue should be hooked into the under-utilized Nassau Loop instead, with some Wille B trains diverted up 6th Ave.
That would make the Second Avenue Subway Brown, with some yellow thrown in for the part above 63rd St for the line which diverges to Broadway. Yellow and Brown, all BMT!
Larry Littlefield:
What should the color scheme be for the tilework in the stations and what style should the tilework be in? If it is to connect with the old BMT line the tilework should be done in the classic BMT style.
BMTJeff
What should the color scheme be for the tilework in the stations and what style should the tilework be in? If it is to connect with the old BMT line the tilework should be done in the classic BMT style.
Why not have each station differently so we get some variety?
(Why not have each station differently so we get some variety?)
This sounds tacky, but since the 2nd Avenue would run through some pretty tony areas, why not sell the naming rights to corporations in exchange for having them name the stations. They's deck each out in their corporate colors and log. Next stop, 86th Street/Chase Station.
I was thinking something along the lines of Jamaica-Van Wyck, Sutphin Blvd - Archer Av, and Jamaica Center, Lexington Ave(63rd Street), Roosevelt Island, and Queensbridge where each station has different tilework etc.
Hey, how about no tilework at all. Or paint. Tiles get dirty, stained, fall off, or get replaced with not-quite-the-same colors. Paint gets steel-dusty, peels, chips, and falls off. Just pour the cement, put up some signs and be done with it. Let it be the first part of the subway to NOT look like a gym shower room. It works for WMATA, and it would save $$.
As for the route sign and map color, I nominate violet -- a more blue-violet, not the purple color of the number 7.
(Just pour the cement, put up some signs and be done with it. It works for WMATA, and it would save $$.)
When cement cracks and leaks, and it always does, parts of it get discolored, and the whole thing looks like hell. The oldest parts of the WMATA now look worse than the oldest parts of the NYCT.
jrf:
Good Idea. I like the classic BMT style tilework but, you can also add some color to to make it look distingushed.
BMTJeff
It doesn't have to be just tile. It could be metal (stainless of course), or some combination. Just something different !!
Let the designers run wild. Maybe we could get something written up as being 'new and interesting'.
jrf:
Stainless steel sounds interesting but I like tile better.
BMTJeff
Yes, but have each station represent EACH SCHOOL of BMT tile design: i.e. the Grecian Key designs of Nassau Street, the Globe and "X" designs of 4th Avenue, the Crazy Quilt designs of the Canarsie Line, the squares and rectangles of the Montague tunnel stops and the classic Hourglass designs of 60th Street/Broadway stations.
wayne
I favor the high glaze brick of the 49th St and 7th Ave BMT station, of course the bricks can be of different colors and hue for the various stations. I would tent toward the lighter pastels for greater light reflection. On the maps and car designators a slanted stripe of a dusty rosa' alternating with royal blue. Letters on of rosa' with a black boarder on a pale yellow backround.
avid
P.S.
There's alway the choice of wall paper, changed with the seasons, holidays or sporting events. Special news worth topics could be represented as well.
There's alway the choice of wall paper, changed with the seasons, holidays or sporting events.
Use electronic ink and that becomes practical.
Wow, the BMT Second Ave. line -- Mayor Hylan is probably spinning in his grave just at the mention of such a heresy.
I supposed if the MTA runs out of solid colors for the routes, they could always use stripes. I works for pool balls, anyway.
10/25/2000
[I supposed if the MTA runs out of solid colors for the routes, they could always use stripes. I works for pool balls, anyway.]
Not really, look at the Lexington Ave. (4,5,6) color, GREEN.
Now switch to the (G) which is an IND line and you have a LIGHT GREEN. This way the same color isn't repeated bewteen the "A" and "B" divisions. A color for the 2nd Ave route will probably be a magenta color (like the old (F).
Bill "Newkirk"
METS WON !!
Wow, the BMT Second Ave. line -- Mayor Hylan is probably spinning in his grave just at the mention of such a heresy.
I supposed if the MTA runs out of solid colors for the routes, they could always use stripes. It works for pool balls, anyway.
My idea is to route the J/M/Z lines up Second Ave. as expresses, with trains coming up from Broad St as locals. Pure fantasy, but the entire system would be brown.
(My idea is to route the J/M/Z lines up Second Ave. as expresses, with trains coming up from Broad St as locals. Pure fantasy,
but the entire system would be brown.)
There is that non-revenue connection. But if it were to be done, I'd make the Broad Street line express above Delancy, going on to the Upper East Side. The local would run from the Willie B to the 63rd St tunnel, and out to Queens.
I think the trains coming off the bridge should run express. They'd carry more passangers than trains coming in thru Montague St and Broad.
I think it should be this
Q: Basically the Q. Brighton Exp, So. Side Manny B, 63rd, 2nd Exp to 125th and Beyond
K: 2nd Express. Full-length. 125th or beyond down 2nd, through Nassaus and Montagues, out to Brooklyn point
W: 2nd Local. Local from 125th or beyond down 2nd to Bay Pkwy. Basically the 603 would take over the M's Brooklyn service.
There is room for the 602/603/R in the Monts if the N runs Manny B express. The 602 could potentially take over for the B on the West End, with the B then taking over the Culver and the F going to Canarsie via the Chrystie St connection (K anyone?) with the K designation being given to one of the 2nd trains............
YES! EXACTLY what I just posted
Deep ochre?
oh please no. hook into nassaus and make it brown!
Sky blue would also work (old JFK EXP color)...
10/25/2000
[Sky blue would also work (old JFK EXP color)...]
Nope, blue is basically used for an IND (B Div.) route. The color green is already used for the Lex. and the (G). So it would have to be magenta since RED is already used of the 7th Ave (1,2,3,9).
Bill "Newkirk"
METS WON !!
Sky bue is very different from the navy blue the A/C/E lines use. Magenta is too easily confused with purple. The only 2 logical distinctive colors left are sky blue and pink.
The 7 varies between magenta and purple. The old JFK was IND, and light blue is the next most distinguishable color and the color chosen on maps (see bus maps) even before pink and lavender (which can look like orange or even magenta depending on the shade--see old Queens bus maps where flesh colored pink was used for Triboro, lavender for Queens Transit; and exp. bus map
(1995), if you can find one, which uses various shades of pink and lavender for Liberty, Metro Apple, Private, etc.)
E
RI
C
B
What does color have to do with divisions? There doesn't seem to be a pattern.
Funny, I remember the JFK Express as being turquoise blue, not sky blue.
My 1980-90 maps shows it clearly a sky blue color.
It should be drawn on the map using the ink that's in the pens you get with those old invisible writing books.
-Hank
First choice- invisible- since I doubt it will ever be built.
Second Choice- Light Blue or light purple. I think many people would associate light red as pink and I cant see macho men riding a pink line
no pink is gay. brown is better.
I thought purple was gay and pink was just feminine.
Wow. A resident homophobe.
-Hank
No just someone who doesn't want to walk into Toys'R'Us one day and see:
NEW!
The BARBIE Fun Subway!
Barbie's very own R142 is equipped with clothing store and beauty salon!
Only 69.95! Order today!
No Pink subway lines please.
> I cant see macho men riding a pink line
Good! More room for the rest of us!
They rode the AA and 4 lines. I doubt they even cared.
And the F and MJ trains. But weren't they and the AA and 4 lines more of a purple shade? Nobody complains today about the 7 train's color either.
The AA and #4 were true pink. The F was magenta. No pink MJ signs were made, so I don't count that.
I believe it will be Light Blue (like the JFK color) and the letter will be "Y".
wayne
10/26/2000
[I believe it will be Light Blue (like the JFK color) and the letter will be "Y".]
Y NOT !!
Bill "Newkirk"
If a 2nd ave subway is ever built SOUTH of the 63rds, where would the lower manhattan part go? A new subway under the bowery is basically pointless since there's only a few public housing projects there - it's not within walking distance of major commercial areas. The solution is to take advantage of the over-capacity of the Nassau St. tubes. Redo the Bowery station to be double-deck with Willy B trains on the south side and 2nd trains on the north side. The 2nd would hook up into the Nassaus and use them through lower Manhattan - MUCH cheaper. All Willy B trains would terminate at Chambers (except those potentially using the Chrystie St. connection). The 2nd Ave trains would use the Montagues and then through to Brooklyn - with the N running Manny B service there is enough space in the Monts for the 2nd Local, 2nd Express, and R. Thus the 2nd would be BROWN thus saving the us from a "light" or "dark" variation of an existing color, or (eyw!) pink.
Abey
Service would be like this:
2nd Local: 125-either 95th or Bay Pkwy, local
Q: 125 to 63rd then Broadway, So. Side Manny B and Brighton Exp
2nd Express - 125 - Brooklyn point, or...
(dream that'll never happen)
125-Ocean Beach via Montagues, Rutgers-DeKalb connection, IND Fulton, Rebuilt Franklin Shuttle, Brighton Exp
(If a 2nd ave subway is ever built SOUTH of the 63rds, where would the lower manhattan part go? A new subway under the
bowery is basically pointless since there's only a few public housing projects there - it's not within walking distance of major
commercial areas. The solution is to take advantage of the over-capacity of the Nassau St. tubes.)
I agree with your solution (see earlier posts). But the 1968 proposal was for the Second Avenue to travel down Water Street and terminate, without serving Brooklyn at all (except via transfer)(see the discussion elsewhere on the site). Zoning regulations required many of the office buildings constructed along Water Street to build underground mezzanines for connections to future subway stations. If you go along Water Street you can see them.
In fact, the zoning still requires new buildings to provide special facilities for the future Second Avenue Subway all along Second Avenue. You can see the shaded areas on the zoning map, where station exits were supposed to be.
Hmmm, in that case split it: Run the two 2nd Ave express tracks into the Nassaus and run two Local tracks along Water and then terminate at South Ferry - similiar to the Broadway/7th IRT's arrangement - locals end in lower manhattan, expresses go to Brooklyn.
The problem here, of course, is that the MTA has no intentions of building a 4-track line under Second Ave.; the planning has always been strictly 2 tracks.
actually no. it'll be 4 tracks. several ealier posts here have said that the mta had decided it should be 4-track, all the way.
The MTA had decided no such thing.
What has happened, is the pie in the sky Subtalkers, which seems to be most of them, have decided it MUST be four tracks.
The pragmatic Subtalkers don't seem to get any attention.
What I've heard is that it will be two tracks, and thus local only. BUT if you look at the track map available in the FAQ section of this site, you'll see that it will have relatively few stations, so it will be reasonably fast.
Andrew
A better idea is to utilize the Second Ave. line as a potential midtown destination of all Willy B trains. I'd run all the Willy B (J/M) trains UP Second Ave, from Essex St. These trains would then run as 2nd Ave. expresses. The local would come from Montague St, up the Nassau St. line to Chambers, then curving west using the current Manny B stub tracks unused since 1967, then turning north along Chrystie St for a cross-platform connection to the Sixth Ave. line at Grand St. The tracks would then proceed north to meet the J/M tracks turning north out of Essex, and then up Second Ave.
Nah. Then you'd lose all of your direct Broadway-Lower Manhattan service. The "E" already provides direct service from Jamaica Center to Midtown. The "J" provides the better Jamaica-Lower Manhattan service. If Broadway riders want service to midtown, that's what the K is for...perhaps run the Ks up 2nd ave instead?
More people would desire the J/M trains to run uptown than to lower Manhattan. Remember, two thirds of all J/M/Z riders transfer to other trains to get to midtown.
Perhaps the "Z" could continue past Essex, via the present line, to Chambers St, terminating at Broad.
Okay then, the whole idea was that the 2nd Ave was taking over for the M's Brooklyn service, so run the M and the Z to midtown. But leave the J in lower manhattan service. If the Broadway was 3-track all the way to Jamaica, I'd say run the expresses to lower manhattan and the locals to midtown - there needs to me a Jamaica-Lower Manhattan Express for all the LIRR riders...
> But should we get the whole enchilada, I say it should be pink.
My thoughts exactly! Pink would make a great color for that purpose. And while we're at it, why is the Staten Island line printed on maps as the same blue as the Eighth Avenue line? There is no relation between the two lines. They should at least make the Staten Island line light blue or something.
- Lyle Goldman
I went by Shea last night around 6 to see if the wrapped Met Redbird was there. It wasn't outside but in the barn, the door was open and I got to peak from the boardwalk what car was getting wrapped. I saw the 1st car towards Main St Flu-shing was #9394. I couldn't tell if the R142 was there or not. I will go to 111 St and wait until this train pulls out to go to Times Square. I hope the R142 follows it and it is in service. We shall soon see.
R36Gary-LETS GO METS! YA GOTTA BELEIVE!!!!
I saw a wrapped 142 (I dont know the number) inside E180 barn (from a passing train.) It had the Mets logo obn the side where the MTA decal usually is shown.
What were the car numbers of the cars in that train from the Manhattan end to the Flushing end?
The consist was from south to north 9713 9712 9361 9360 9413 9412 9356 9357 9327 9395 9394 I hope this helps.
Not anymore. I was on said train yesterday evening and jotted the car #s down myself. I even got a few pictures, too. I thought they would move to CI after the 1st game @ Shea. I saw 9703-2, 9465-4, and 9369-8 at CI. When I came off the 7 train at 46-Bliss, I saw this train at 52-Lincoln with the blue front. I made a mad dash to the Manhattan-bound platform via the crossunder at 47th Street to catch the train. Good thing I did! I also got a picture of it on the express track passing 46-Bliss on its way back to Flushing.
There's a nice shot of 9361 on the cover of this week's Queens Tribune; check it out!
I went to meet up with SubBus at the Transit Museum today on our lunch hours and we're on the platform level looking at the old Semiphore signal when a dude carrying a Mets jacket (YEAH! GO METS!) introduces himself as STEVE 8THAVEEXP!
A wild coincident! Steve said he dropped in on the Musuem briefly on his way back to Manhattan to do some shopping and siteseeing. Then later in the day he'd be in Mets territory -- Flushing -- to check out Corona yard.
We parted ways, wishing Steve the best of luck on his railfanning which will include a full-day of traveling with Subwaybuff, Slant40 Wayne, and Sam Blyiss.
What an unusual day!
BMTman
Yes. It sure was nice to meet with SteveB-8AveExp. Later on in the day, I met with Trevor Logan, Tom"Mr.R36'Maley, and a couple of other people. We met on the "World Series Special" 7 train. We were in the last car 9713. At Main St, there were about a handful people taking pics. Im sure that Trevor will put up his pics when ready.... Once again, it was nice to meet two faces behind the machines.
Train#1305Mike
Hey, Trevor! How was that special #7 train?
Was the wrap on it as good as the R-142 on the #4?
BMTman
I tell one thing, those were the cleanest R36's that I have been on!!!!!
Train#1775Mike
The feeling is mutual. Guess what? I spotted R-62A 1956 Thursday night at about 11 PM as my 3 train left 14th St. It was the last car of the train. 1957 turned up earlier that day on another 3 train.
Ok, so 1956 is back on the mainline. I know it was on the shuttle for some time.
Train#1977 Mike
Yep, we're going out there Thursday starting at 8:00AM and ending up who knows when, most likely well after dark. I'm all packed up and ready to go... should be a wonderful day; last year certainly was.
wayne
Enjoy This GG-1 Stored at Hoboken
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
She still looks pretty good for her age!
Isn't this engine actually OLDER than one of the UP steamers?
-Hank
GG-1's were built from 1934-1943 and chronilogically numbered 4800-4938.
I can't remember which it is, but either the 844 or 3985 (I think it's 844) was built in 1944.
-Hank
I think the 4-6-6-4 was built in 44 and their 48-4 was built c. 42. Now I prefer a good old Duplex myself.
Years of construction:
1939: GG-1 #4877
1943: Challenger #3985
1944: Northern #844
I'd like to add my thanks to Trevor, as one of the old railfans to whom he referred, for posting the beautiful photo.
BTW, Slo Beach Fred and I are younger than 4877 and older than the UP steamers.
Choo Choo Bob
Its a shame NJT had to retire them just shy of their 50th Aniversary. I think the last straw was Amtrak buying AEM-7's that freed up E-60's for NJT to replace any need they had for electric locomotives. Contrary to popular belief it was not due to a frequency change on the NEC, but rather to cracking in the frames for which the to fix them no longer exists (ie heavy steel casting for battleships ect.)
I'm not an old Railfan! And BTW that is one of the best pics I have seen of old 4877 stored at Hoboken. How did whoever took the pic get in there?
I took this picture, with the combination of me being a NJ Transit Employee and My Mother being a Signal Operator at the Hoboken Terminal Tower, I was able to get to it!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
My Mother being a Signal Operator at the Hoboken Terminal Tower, I was able to get to it!
Could you get me some tower info like pics, a diagram, stats like movements per day, machine type, # of switches, # of signals? I'm a tower nut and I would love some information. Does your mom remember the old Hoboken Tower? I have a pic of it and it is the cutest little building.
Does she handle any dispatching duties? Theres one female that I hear handling traffic on the Port Jervis line occasionally- is that her?? Just curioous....
NICE "G", but doesn't NJT have a PHOEBE SNOW Obs, NOW, That's the REAL Pride of NJT
10/25/2000
Origanlly the pride of the PRR !
Bill "Newkirk"
METS WON !!
NJT should be ashamed of the way that 4877 looks. If you get close up you will see that it is rusting everywhere. They don't even bring it in for Hoboken festival because of the way it looks. It is a shame that NJT can't do even a cosmetic restoration. It would be great if they stuck it in the terminal up against one of the bumpers on display.
They don't even bring it in for Hoboken festival because of the way it looks.
A couple years it couldn't be moved because of a seized traction motor or something, but I thought that had been removed.
You know, I was wondering when somebody would step to the plate with the negative point of view here. You are of course the right man for the job. The E8s inside the MMC didn't look much better, at least back in 1997. At least it doesn't have clear through holes like the current IRT fleet.
Certainly Rockaway Park is a great station to live close to. Much of the area to the west of the station is well-to-do. It is a long ride into Manhattan though. Tottenville on the SIRT line is also a nice area. Improvements in the Perth Amboy, NJ area could bring back the ferry service to Tottenville. One could also live on City Island which is near Pelham Bay Park station. But my personal favorite is at 79th and New Utrecht, probably because I have friends in the area.
City Island is near Pelham Bay Park station? Get a new map!
-Hank
I'd say it's better to live somewhere that's not quite at the end of a long, long line from Manhattan. Maybe somwhere along the 7, say 61 St/Woodside. Or In Forest Hills near the 71/Continental E/F/G/R.
:)Andrew
I lived right by 75 Av for a bit in the late 80s. On nice mornings I could mosey to 71 or Union Tpk if I had a little extra time. It was also handy cuz at the time, the switchover to the express just west of 75 Av would frequently go out, so I wouldn't stand there like a schmuck. One of the most dreadful subway stops I lived by was 25 Av on the B. That was when the Manny B reroutes started, 4 Av was unballasted, and pre-GOH. The ride was slow and miserable, and then I had the hike from the station down to Cropsey Av. I dreaded having to stay late in Manhattan, and often took a cab home and the express bus back in in the morning.
My Aunt and Uncle used to Live on the 22nd Floor of Brightwater towers at Surf Ave and W5th, by the West 8th St Station, in a corner Apt. Go out on their balcony view Stillwell Terminal, The CI Yards, and the view to Manhatten and the Narrows, plus had a choice of 4 trains to get me there from Manhattemn, even though the F took forever
Bob,
My grandparents lived in east Brightwaters Towers building, apartment 22c! During the 60s and 70s I used to visit them and sit out on the balcony watching all the Culver and Brighton line action, and would bring my binoculars to watch Coney Island yard.
It was great watching all those R9s on the Culver, then after Chrystie St. the QJ brought R9s to the Brighton too.
Very rare, I would see an AB work train passing, but alas, I think I only saw them for a couple of years.
Occasionally, I still go back to the neighborhoods (Brighton and Bath Beach) and it brings back great memories; if only the ABs, D-types and R9s were back in service.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
They lived in 501A Surf, in fact my uncle lived there until June 99 when he passed away, and my cousin moved to Jersey 2 years ago. If I remember correctly Sgt Jeff and a couple others had family who lived in Brightwater,
I had a friend who's dad, now retired, worked in CI Yard & Shops. He lived in Trump Village, corner of W 5th & Neptune Ave, 23rd floor. Great view of Stillwell, CI Yard, Culver line and the Sea Beach & West End in the background. Boy did I enjoy my trips to this kid's house!
--Mark
I don't like to ask this question but I would like to know if anyone has any latest information on what the subway car assignment will be when both the 63 St/Queens Blvd & the Manhattan Bridge flip-flop accurs in 2001.
Please post information on subtalk but don't put up any nonsense please.
B will have R32
G will have R32, R46, or R68 Not decided yet
Why do you have to keep posting this over and over? You've been asked several times by a number of us to stop it. If no one posted the information, maybe it isn't available. Or, maybe those with the info have other things they'd rather do at this time than post it.
Another thing: of what great consequence is it to you that you have to be a jerk and keep asking?
If no one answers, asumme there is no answer or read older posts. As other people have said, you are starting to annoy people.
There will be a lot of trains with different letters. Some may be new, some will be long, and some will be short.
Try reading the faq and some of the previous 3 weeks of posts.
-Hank
Follo-- we will post the info when it is available! Please do not keep asking us. ALl we can tell you for now is:
We
Dont
Know
Yet
Cool?
Does anyone know what high school you go to to learn how to operate trains?
Yes, RTO school but its a grade school though :(
I would like to see a discussion of the role the subway system played in the World Series, particularily in the years that both teams happened to be from New York (1956, etc.)
SOurce; Official Bulletin. Goes on sale at 7am on 10/30/2000.
Station are grouped to save space.
AS usual these tips:
1- A station on the listy might not get the cards.
2- Not on sale in the machines
3- A station not on the list may get the cards due to a transfer by supervision.
4- Go to the main 24 hour booth at a listed station for the best chance to get a card.
If I add "ONLY" then the card is available only at the specific line listed
THE LIST:
110-B,C,1,9,2,3
103-B,C,1,9
96-B,C.1.2.3.9
86-B,C,1,9,4,5,6
81-B,C
72-B,C
59-A,B,C,D,1,9,4,5,6,N,R
50-A,C,E,1,9
42-A,C,E,1,2,3,9,N,R,S
34-A,C,E,B,D,F,Q,N,R,1,2,3,9
23-C,E,F,N,R,1,9,6
14/8-A,C,E,F,L,N,R,4,5,6,1,2,3,9
W4-A,B,C,D,E,F,Q
Spring-C,E
Broadway?Nassau- Fulton- A,C,J,M,2,3,4,5
63/Lex-B,Q
57/6-B,Q
47-50--B,D,F,Q
42/6-B,D,F,Q,7
Broadway/Lafayette- Bleecker-D,F,6
53rd/7-B,D,E
53rd/5th-E,F
5th av-N,R
57/7-N,R
49-N,R
28-N,R,6
8th-N,R
City Hall-N,R
Cortlandt-N,R,1,9
Rector- N,R,1,9
Whitehall-N,R
Bowery- J,M,Z
Broad- J,M,Z
3av- L
1av-L
116-1.9
79-1,9
72-19,
66-1,9
18-1,9
Christopher-1,9
Houston-19,
Canal-1,9
Franklin St-1,9
Chambers-1,2,3,9
Park Place/WTC-A,C,E,2,3
South Ferry-1,9
77-6
68-6
Grand Central-4,5,6,7,S
33-6
Astor-6
Brooklyn bridge/Chambers-4,5,6,J,M,Z
Wall St-4,5 ONLY
Bowling Green-4,5
Isn't it a bit late, since their site has had a "So long New York" up for a couple of weeks (going out of consumer business sale)...
I just posted based on the official buletin I received. Maybe the cards were already paid for my them?
Got a card in today that took a while before I figured it out.
It's all in Chinese, accept the phone # 877-NYC-Proj, it's one of the two the Subway-Buff said are part of NY Cancer Project. The other is a African-Am baby (which I don't have yet). It's interesting that someone should have it on one of our buses based on where it was sold.
Mr t__:^)
Are these cards the same as before???
3TM
When Trasnit issues a new promotional metroCard we receive an "AFC Bulletin" advising of the dates for deliovery and the date they go on sale. The Bulletins do not include pictures but advise that the new cards are to be put away until the time and date sale is to begin.
hopefully the subway series will end quickly as it has severely stressed and set back the recovery of many recovering railfans... to cope with the crisis, local chapters of railfans anonyous will be holding nightly meetings in every borough to help their members from experiencing major set backs...
in addition, station agents have been given r.a. brochures to give to any railfan who demands to know when the november 2000 edition of "the map" will be distributed...
Don't know about railfan fever but the traffic to this site is up about 33% in the past 10 days or so...
Steve B is amongst us and he, Peggy and I shall take to the rails Thursday morning for our annual jaunt. Simon Billis arrives 2nd week of November and we will have our annual Slant hunt on Nov. 13th.
wayne
Good luck, Wayne! I met up with SteveB earlier today with SubBus @ the Transit Museum.
Have fun and don't forget to grab the railfan window from Salaam on the Canarsie Line! ;-)
BMTman
I've been practicing standing at the railfan window without holding on, I have new shoes with special cushioned soles, I have six rolls of film, more than enough dollars for a Nathans railfan lunch (2 dogs,cheesefies, reg cola), subway map, I am almost ready for Subway Tour No 7 starting on the 11th November.
Simon
Swindon UK
Jolly good, remember it's not the underground over here ! And Subway is also a sandwich place ... just thought I'ld give you a couple of tips on the lingo :-) Seriously, sounds like you're ready to have some fun !
Mr t
Ive got a couple of trips planned but if I really stop to think about it it's just great being in New York and meeting up with the many friends I have made on this site.
Simon
Swindon UK
>>>...And Subway is also a sandwich place...<<<
Subway is also the name of my cat, born in Westchester Yard.
Peace,
ANDEE
Your cat was born in Westchester Yard?
Rather have cats than rats.
Yes he was, July 4th 1999. He came from a colony of feral cats that live there. I got him when he was about 6 weeks old.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow, that is a LOT of extra traffic!
Would you happen to have a meeting list? I for one am totally powerless over the Subway, and R40 cars in particular. Or should we hold meetings at your place?
wayne
Does the R1/9 cab count as a higher power?
And what about the powers of an R-40 cab, huh? (I'm working on finding a way of getting one through my front door).
BMTman
Wayne, I would think that heypaul's apartment is a tad (uh, oh not that word again!) too small for all the railfans and assorted foamers that would be in need of "special attention".
Sorry, me thinks this is a job for Creedmoor.
BMTman
I caught the Subway Series R36 train today and ran into the Sperry Rail System's work train on my way home.
I apologize in advance for the poor quality of the R36 picture.
SRS Car at WTC (The diesel fumes stunk!)
The Other Side of The Tracks: A Website Devoted to The New York City Subway
-Harry
I caught the Subway Series R36 train today and ran into the Sperry Rail System's work train on my way home.
I apologize in advance for the poor quality of the R36 picture.
SRS Car at WTC (The diesel fumes stunk!)
See another 4 pictures of the SRS car and 7 of the R36 Mets consist at www.zdeno.com
The Other Side of The Tracks: A Website Devoted to The New York City Subway
-Harry
(Sorry for the previous messed up HTML post)
hey harry... those diesel fumes came out of a genuine mack bus engine... watch what you say...
I can't believe what kind of job the MTA has done to these cars! You mean they just paint the front blue, put a couple of decals on those old cars (chuckle)? They don't look right as compared to the Yankees R142s, but I do applaud the effort.
They did the same thing to the R142's. Personally, the R36's look MUCH better ..
true. the blue brings it out more. it made the redbirds look so sweet.
Does anybody know the percentage of how full a train or car must be for the TA to break even on its expenses? Also, since the TA is in debt (from what I heard here), how far off are they from breaking even on any given train (or car)?
While I expect Larry Littlefield can provide more concrete numbers, let us begin with the basics. ALL of the city owned systems NY, Chgo, started out saddled with huge debts because the government floated bonds to exchange for thesecurities of the bankrupt private entities previously operating--IRT, BMT, CRT etc, or lijke BART the cost of the basic system was about 3 times what the voters were originally told. Then, various newer bonds(because governments don't sell stocks)have been issued to finance construction or trains. In any event, NONE of the transit systems come anywhere near recovering capital costs. Farebox recovery on some systems is as good as 30-40 percent of day to day expenses,so break even is an illusory concept. My point is: do you expect the city public works to "earn a profit" on streets and sidewalks? I consider transit a sine qua non of urban life and you can't print enough money to make me live outside of a city.
My point is: do you expect the city public works to "earn a profit" on streets and sidewalks?
Yes, the state makes a profit on access fees. Since you can't be charged directly they charge you when you fill up your car or when you buy your car. Usually fuel and car sales taxes are enough to fix existing roads and build new ones. Sidewalks are another issue.
Usually fuel and car sales taxes are enough to fix existing roads and build new ones.
No way!
Stratford, NJ (where I live) collects no taxes on the sale of gasoline, nor does it collect user fees or tolls. Construction and repair of local streets comes out of real estate taxes.
I was talking about state roads.
Excuse my misunderstanding. You answered a post that referred to city streets.
I would like to see Stratford spend as much local tax money on transporting people to the Lindenwold PATCO station/NJT Atlantic City line station/NJT bus hub (they all share a location) as they spend on streets. Then I wouldn't have to drive-park, bum a ride, or hire a taxi every time I use public transportation. But this idea would be considered bizarre.
Durring the years my dad worked in Centre City he always walked to the PATCO station (except cases of extreme weather). Same with me when I took classes at Penn.)
(My point is: do you expect the city public works to "earn a profit" on streets and sidewalks?)
No, but you don't expect the city to subsidize people walking and driving trucks, either.
So let's exclude the cost of building, maintaining, and operating the transit ROW from the break even point, to make a comparison fair on an "auto-equivalent basis." Rail lines carry as much as state highways, and ought to be similarly financed. Drivers may be asked to fairly contribute to the ROW as rent, in exchange for transit riders giving up their share of scarce transit space on the road.
And let's exclude debt service as well. The government runs up a debt to win votes and screw the next generation, not because the debt will lead to a revenue stream. When you buy 6,000 cars at once to operate a system, and will not have to buy again for 30 years, that is a capital expense. When you have to buy and rebuild 200 cars per year to keep a system going, that is an operating expense and should be treated as such (Vote NO on that bond issue).
I'd say let's exclude the cost of maintaining the stations as well. They are a public amenity, like a park or library. They raise local property values, and ought to be paid for with local property taxes. Note that the City originally financed the ROW and stations, and they were City property, even under private ownership.
That leaves the cost of buying, maintaining, and operating the actual trains, collecting fares, insurance, and a pro-rate share of administration. That is the fair measure of "break even," on an "auto-equivalent basis."
Note that the entire cost of bus transit falls into this category, and buses do very poorly. They are a social service, not an economically viable service. However, if you have a social service transit system, you might as well limit yourself to buses, since they at least do not require a separate ROW.
How does the subway stack up? I'm not sure, but I suspect it was close to break even before the recent wage increases unaccompanied by fare increases. But one of the big costs is buying and maintaining the cars, and a substantial share of those cars are purchased and maintained just for rush hours. That means the "break even" for rush hours is higher.
We do know each new car costs about $2 million. If they last 30 years each, and the TA is attracting 1.3 billion per year, then the cost of buying cars alone is 31 cents per ride (not including all the interest our pols have chosen to make us pay). If we can get 40 years out of them, the cost falls to 23 cents per ride.
It's well-documented that fuel and use taxes cover just over 50% in New York State. The shortfall comes from general revenue.
-Hank
I know that realistically that a transit system won't break even, but there must be a point where if there were enough riders, they would cover all the expenses. The number might be extremely high, maybe even beyond maximum capacity, but the number still exists, as a theorectical value. If the entire NY subway was packed 24/7 like Lexington Ave. is during rush hour, I'm sure they would make a profit. So therefore, if maximum capicity of a system for a 24 hour period equals 100%, some percentage above or below that must be the break even point.
The Moscow Subway receives no government funding for operating
expenses. The fare is less than 20cents, and the system is still
expanding (a new station opened in September)
Keep politics out of transit, and everything will be much better
(The Moscow Subway receives no government funding for operating
expenses. The fare is less than 20cents, and the system is still
expanding (a new station opened in September). Keep politics out of transit, and everything will be much better).
A. More people use transit rather than drive.
B. The transit workers do not earn more than the riders.
Were this true in NYC, the subway would do as well.
It is also worth noting that the entire Soviet Union kicked in to build perhaps the world's greatest subway in Moscow, Russia's showplace city. With regard to NYC and the United States, resources tend to flow in the other direction.
Farebox recovery on some systems is as good as 30-40 percent of day to day expenses
In NYC it is actually 63%, Boston is 29% and WDC is 50%. The real big expenses are the new trains.
Channel 6 has provided me with yet another SubTalk topic. I just saw a NYC promotional tourist ad making lite of the subway series. Well the last shot shows a hand holding a baseball with I *hart* NY on it. The background was a subway platform with a train of REDBIRDS pulling out. It appeared to be one of the Green numbered lines.
And you CAN'T see it in New York. MD or CT, yes!!
NY doesn't sell "I love NY" to New York. Maryland doesn't sell Toursity stuff to Maryland, so we get to see Maryland pitches on the cable channels.
I posted about the spot earlier in the week. It's been on all the Baltimore local stations three or four times a week.
true time on TBS TV 1Am 10-25 just watched a movie. timeshifters catherany Bell from JAG. she was on a run a way train on the A line. Lead car 5326 they some how broke the married pair and a emer. stop took 1 mile? THE moterman was slumped on top of controler. heart attack? real phony.
I was watching my Philly news online so I saw it in New Jersey, in Connecticut.
BTW New Jersey runs pro New Jersey ads in New Jersey. Part because the TV markets are shared b/t states and part because they need to keep reminding everyone that our state isn't so bad. I wonder if NJ is the only state that needs to run a propaganda campaign to keep current residents from leaving?
They were 6 cars since they had the yellow Pelham marker.
You seem to have missed the small purple diamond in those yellow bars. There was also a car with a black bar and purple diamond, too. They were 7 line cars.
yep. don't tell me you couldn't notice the window sizes either
I SAW THE AD! Why did I write that in all caps? I saw it during the baseball game yesterday. Those Redbirds were from the 7 line! I know it was a nationwide broadcast, so even the New Yorkers could see their own "I Love NY" commercials.
ENJOY
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I wonder what people outside of NYC think about the paint/decal job the MTA did on these R36s? Did Rudy G or George Pataki rode it?
[I wonder what people outside of NYC think about the paint/decal job the MTA did on these R36s? Did Rudy G or George Pataki rode it?]
Oh yes they did ! Today's NY Post has a shot of the three of them inside a Red Bird. Rudy & George had Yankee caps, Rick had a Mets one, Hillery wasn't invited !
Mr t__:^)
10/25/2000
[Oh yes they did ! Today's NY Post has a shot of the three of them inside a Red Bird. Rudy & George had Yankee caps, Rick had a Mets one, Hillery wasn't invited !]
Hillary wasn'r invited ? That made my day !
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS !!
Cute, but seriously, for the first subway series in 40 someodd years, they couldn't paint up a whole train or two?
I mean, heck, those graffitti guys in the 80's could do a side of a car in one night, can't the MTA with all of it's technology beat that? :)
Gee, reopen the paint shop?? You got to be kiding?
Is the front end painted or wrapped? Looks painted to me.
It's Wrapped!
Trevor Logan
If heypaul wants one for his cab I'll bet I know the vendor that did it. Nice shots Trevor, I saved a copy for my personal use, thanks for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
'nuff said!
-Hank
The Brooklyn Dodgers don't exist anymore. My father, a die-hard Mets fan, couldn't let go either.
My grandfather went to his grave a Dodger fan. He didn't abandon the team that abandoned his city.
-Hank
I heard an interesting factoid during the game yesterday. The Mets' colors, orange and blue, were the colors of the Giants and the Dodgers, respectively.
That's pretty well known. The Pinstripes on their original uniforms came from the Yankees.
-Hank
Good thing I have GIFs of the WF cars and R142 cars to make them & a Special Trains spot on my REVISED NYCS GIFs site. All GIFs have been arranged by line assignment.
Main Site
NYC Subway GIFs
The R-142a was running today on the 6. I saw it around 9:45-10 pm. It was headed uptown as I was going downtown on the 4 so I couldn't tell if it was running light. Are these trains undergoing that supposed 15-day test yet?
Nappy
Not sure what's happening with the 142A, but they may be road testing again, without passengers. I just spotted the Bombardier 142 (6301-10) a little while ago on the road. It appears that it too is going through road testing, as the cars are filled with equipment.
-Stef
Here is the article from todays NY Times
Just returned to work after two weeks off. Since I could only do daytrips this year due to commitments, I decided that it was time for a return to Atlanta, as it had been 18 years since my last visit. I booked on line a reservation with Airtran; a good round trip fare without the usual stupid requirements. Being an early riser, I caught the first Airport shuttle bus out of GCT, 5 a.m., and a 6:30 a.m. flight out of LaGuardia.
Arriving in Atlanta's terminal "C" 20 minutes EARLY, I headed straight to the underground people mover, built by Westinghouse, I believe. Appear to be still the same cars I recall from 1982. It's amazing the crowds they handle and at quite a close headway. Newark take note! These are designed for the crush and for LUGGAGE, something New Jersey forgot about when planning the monorail.
I had reviewed MARTA'S website previously to see the map and fare structure. I was most interested in the day pass. However, that wouldn't be the case. The MARTA booth attendant at the airport told me that a day pass must be ordered about 14 days in advance.
With that in mind I bought a batch of tokens and decided to make the best of it. Once inside the turnstile, I picked up a brochure explaining MARTA fares. They have weekend passes and weekly passes ($12.00). Being a token collector and a pass collector, I decided to keep or use some tokens, trade the rest, and buy the passes. Later I discovered that the weekend pass would not be issued until Wednesday; I was there Tuesday. I did buy the weekly. So I took a financial beating.
The MARTA system was better than expected. I rode both series of cars, never having been on the Hitachis. I noticed that many of the Franco Belge cars have been upgraded and saw very few mixed with the Hitachi cars. Some even had their front end stripes repainted.
I was surprised at the strange treatment many cars had on their interiors. The formica panels had been changed throughout the cars, eliminating the orange-beige panels and replacing them with a motiff that looked like enlarged photos of aerial views of the desert, or a close up view of chocolate marshmallow ice cream! This motiff was even in the operator's cab.
The interior destination signs did not work until the electronic announcements were made.
The trains were smooth, quiet and fast. New York City transit take note! Miss one train and another was there within 3-4 minutes. Similar to Toronto. It baffles me how NY has the largest transit system, carries the most people and still manages to run trains with such horrible headways, causing on many lines rush hour conditions round the clock!
The stations on MARTA are vey interesting; they spared no expense on the planning & designs. It is also possible to come off the subway and wander out to photo the buses, as I do, and not leave the fare-paid area. (lots of neat buses).And in doing so, not one person bothered me. In fact, several MARTA employees and a MARTA police man were quite friendly and helpful. I have to admit that one employee was an ex-Queens boy.
Left in 1978.
I was surprised to see that there are two car trains running on the east-west line, as there is a station that can only fit two cars. Why would they have such a thing? Was this intended to go father?
I got a glimpse of the new Breda cars; they look great.
The Motor Bus Society will hold their annual Spring convention in Atlanta in April 2001; I'll be there, if not before then.
Joe C
I headed straight to the underground people mover, built by Westinghouse, I believe. Appear to be still the same cars I recall from 1982. It's amazing the crowds they handle and at quite a close headway. Newark take note! These are designed for the crush and for LUGGAGE, something New Jersey forgot about when planning the monorail.
They bought new cars in addtion to the original ones. They look almost the same, but the front ends are different. Did you notice that the trains are four cars long now instead of three? They have a fleet of 40 cars now. Believe it or not, this is my favorite transit system of all time. I've ridden that thing hundreds of times and I still get a kick out of it. It's extremely high tech, and those headways are great. As for luggage, I hope you mean carry-ons, because luggage has to be checked in before going through security before getting to the train.
I love Atlanta's subway for a lot of reasons, but one of my favorite things about it is the Peachtree Center station. The station is deep,
about 120 feet underground, and rather than finishing the walls in
concrete or tile, the bare rock has been left exposed in all its
natural beauty. I think its called Georgia schist. But for the
trains rolling by, the high-cielinged station would be a great place to go rock climbing!
Michalovic
To answer your question about the two car train. That's the Bankhead line. It was supposed to have anohter station (called Pery Homes) and be built back in the 80s, but politics got in the way. The reason that it is only a two car station is because it was a half-ass job, they thought ridership wouldn't be high. Although, every time I've been to that station all the seats are taken.
If I'm not mistaken, the Bankhead trains, running in 2 car sets, run the whole line and not just a shuttle.
Joe C.
Trains run from Bankhead (P4) to either Vine City (W2) or King Memorial (E2).
After 9 pm, it's a shuttle between Vine City and Bankhead, all other times it goes to King Memorial. Also, the Dunwoody train becomes a shuttle after 9 pm between Dunwoody and Lindbergh.
Hey Rob, Is MARTA built like Toronto's, that is, with the capability to have cross-routed service? Have a train start on the east and head north at some point, let's say. The TTC had service like that way back but discontinued that except for special movements, etc.
The ERA had a fan trip back in 1972 and those tracks were used. It was a hoot to ride it.
Joe C.
There is a cross-route track at Five Points station but it is rarely used.
Nappy
Also, it's only one track, so it's can only be used for non revunue movements
Thank you for your fascinating and detailed post. Oh, how I wish there were a lot more messages of that caliber on this site! Many of us want to know what is really happening in a field near and dear to us. You shared what you saw with little bias and certainly gave all those who clicked on it a great deal of updated information from a personal point of view without bias. Thank you for doing so. You are a great role model for SubTalk. As they say in the quiet underground, "SubTalk Subletly"!Well done!
Hi Ray, thanks for the nice uplift early this a.m.
Many readers and writers here cannot always get to various places so it is nice to get a full report, although I did worry about the
content getting long or boring. Thankfully MARTA proved to be an excellent choice for a day trip. And kudos to Airtran for having the right deal at the right time.
I did leave out that my flight back was 2 hours late leaving Atlanta, but that was air traffic control out of the New York region. Airtran skimmed about an hour of that off, so in effect, I was only about an hour late landing in LGA. I don't know how they do it!
Thanx again for the kind words.
Joe C.
Joe, Did you take the opportunity to load up on Atlanta dip/swipe cards ... Atlanta has some nice ones. One of my staff is going their next week to see his sister, I've asked him to bring me back a daily card.
Mr t__:^)
That was the downside to the trip, Thurston. The daily card, I was told, had to be ordered in advance. So I bought tokens. Then I discovered a weekly card for $12.00; I bought that one. A weekend card for $8.00 was not available until the next day.
Joe C.
My man has been able to obtain a couple of "One-Way Pass" cards both times that he was there. One is a "20 Year" commerative.
Their "monthly's" are also unique each month, so thanks to my friend their I have quite a collection.
Mr t__:^)
Self explanitory Subject Title
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
M-4's (8900 series-3 car sets) were made by Tokyu
M-6's (9000 series-3 car sets) were made by Morrison-Kundsen (please forgive spelling errors)
Have a nice day !!
THank You VERY MUCH!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Company name is Morrison-Knudsen.
-Hank
I thought that they only did remans.
Peace,
ANDEE
I guess not !!
And just a little FYI. Except for 9023 (I think) the M-6's have chimes instead of bells for door closing notifications !!
Ballparks.com web site has all the info one would ever need to know about stadiums and arenas. It even give access info for most of them. This can settle 2 debates; which stadiums have transit service, and who paid for Pac Bell.
-Hank
I'm going to order that SF Giants baseball cap.
Heck, since a stadium uses so much land, I'm willing to consider a stadium "private" even if the government GIVES it to them, let alone leases it like PacBell. And I guess the environmental crazies of SF were willing to allow a transit-oriented park, unlike those in NY who would object to building a stadium in a congested area on "environmental" grounds.
I'm trying to find out if any model railroad company offers realistic O and/or HO scale versions of the NYCT A and B Division signals (homeball or 'shorties').
With MTH offering different subway car sets each year you'd think that they -- or another company -- would offer sigalling equipment for the discriminating railfan who wants prototype accessories.
BMTman
Q-Car Co. makes NYCTA signal heads in O scale I think. Contact them at their web site which is listed in the Transfer Section of this web site. As far as prototype accessories for subway modeling, I think that this is something for the "cottage industry" only. It took years for a major model producer (MTH) to risk doing rapid transit cars as a mass produced item. I think that the hard core "discriminating" model transit railfan represents a very small part of the market. That said, I understand that Q-Car has plans to produce (or is producing) various NYC subway "accessories". Again, please contact them directly for info.
>>>...discriminating railfan ...<<<
Stop it....LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
Now online, on the Subway Series page, a poll. Who do you think will win the Subway Series, the Mets or the Yankees? Don't reply to me with the answer, vote on the Subway Series Page!
Also, a new version of the Subway Bullets font, SLRM-F, is now available for download. Check it out!
Also, discuss the Subway Series. Not on SubTalk, but on my message board. A link is provided to the message board at the Subway Series Page, or click on the Redbird below.
Everyone always talks about farebox recovery when pointing out how transit dosen't make money. Well transit offers more services than just a ride. They sell huge amounts of advertising, pay phones, vending machines, retail spaces (like the stores in GCT), small scale vendors (news stands etc.), gift shoppe gifts and collectable/novelty items, air space development rights, and finally they can rent their tunnels as a utility Right of Way for water, gass, telephone, electric and fiber optic. Taking all this into account how much does you typical transit system recover as a % of total costs (not including capital expenses, but including capital costs to maintain things at the current level (ie new ties and rails))
Also forgotten are two things. 1) Highways are subsidized to an even
greater degree than transit in absolute dollars, and 2) It's not only
the riders who benefit, but their employers and the whole economy of the metro area in question. Transit is an investment, but one that pays off in lots of ways. But I guess readers of this forum already
know these things.
Michalovic
(Taking all this into account how much does you typical transit system recover as a % of total costs (not including capital expenses, but including capital costs to maintain things at the current level (ie new ties and rails))
Generally, when people talk about recovering costs, they do take all these things into account. As I've said, if you take out the cost of the ROW (which drivers generally do not pay for except for a few toll roads and crossings) and the stations I think the subway could break even. Same with Metro North. The LIRR could, if it was no so overpaid and featherbedded and wasteful. I doubt that any other transit agencies in North America come close.
Hong Kong double-deckers to go.
-Hank
Did you notice the COST?
50 trams total at a total cost of - 6.4 million. WHAT???
Now Heypaul is better at long division then me but I get
__________
50 )6,400,000 = 128,000 per tram. $128,000??? You couldn't even buy a BUS for that in the U.S.! Sheesh...I think us american Light Rail consumers are being overcharged!
I think the fact checking in the article is lacking. You can't replace 163 cars with 48.
-Hank
4 years * 12 months per year * 4 cars per month = 192 !!!
Also building 4 cars a month = 1 per week SLOOOOOOOW !!!!. The R142's are about 10 per week from what I've heard.
That's because they arrive from Japan partially completed. Final assembly and checks don't take all that long.
-Hank
But even coming off the assembly line it can't be one a week. That would mean that Bombardier would be producing the R142's (primary and option orders) for 17 years. (910 cars / 52 cars per year) NO WAY !!
Obviously there's a differential in the size of the workforce.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
and the cost. Man for 128,000 I would buy an LRV - i'd just have to live in it because i wouldn't have a house....
Nah, they're gonna be "Made In China" -- labor costs are very cheap there.
so now that we have normalized trade relations, let's import our LRVs from china!
The West Jersey Chapter of the NRHS (meeting place is Haddonfield, where Jersey Mike lives) has "current events slides" prior to the program, during which attendees are encouraged to show their own recent slides. This past Monday night, Vince Jakobowski, SEPTA rail engineer (BLE), showed (about 25 of) his slides of the old Hong Kong double-decker trolleys which he took during his visit in August. They were well received by those present (about 65 to 70 people). He said it took about 1.5 hours to ride the line end-to-end and cost HK$2 (about 25 cents US). He also stated that even though the weather was hot and humid, the buses were air conditioned and the trolleys were not, the trolleys were much more heavily patronized. He concluded by stating his opinion that for anyone who likes trolleys, the 24 hour flight to Hong Kong is worthwhile.
I should really attend those meetings. Where are they and when are they? Although 65-70 people sounds like a big crowd (I prefer smaller group meetings, you can get more done and get to know people bettre). What is the railfan obsession with slides? I can't stand slides and I have never used them. They are more expensive and are a bitch to scan, not to mention you need a projector to properly view them. Can't they just pass around photographs?
Is there a smaller railfan group like a Camden County sub chapter or a Haddonfield railfan club?
Something I've been wondering for a while: How much does it cost to shoot a roll of Kodachrome slide film (36 exposures) and have it processed in the United States?
It costs approximately $10.73 (US$) for me to shoot a 36 exposure roll (and squeeze 39 exposures on it, getting the extra 3 for free) of Kodachrome 64 here in Canada, assuming I buy 10 rolls at once and get the 10% discount offered at all the serious camera shops. The cost of processing and mounting the slides is included in the approximate $10.73 (US$) per roll price I pay, so I also have the convenience of not having to buy the film and buy the processing later.
As for slides being a "bitch to scan", I couldn't agree more if useing a flatbed scanner with a transparancy adaptor. The bone I have to pick with slides is that the cost of the associated equipment, projectors and proper slide scanners, is incredibly expensive.
On the other side, if you do have a projector then showing slides to a large group of people like that group of 65 to 70 people is quite easy. Passing around prints to such a large group like that would be very time consuming and impractical, and I personally would be concerned about the prints being damaged by that much handling.
-Robert King
I pay retail for both film and processing since I don't shoot that much since I got into video. Actually, I had stopped taking slides until the "current events slides" encouraged me to resume (I showed 2 Eat Broad Top, 3 Whippany Festival and 2 others at the NRHS meeting Monday night).
I pay about $17 total for a 36 exposure roll of Kodachrome 64 or 200 and processing.
10/25/2000
[I pay about $17 total for a 36 exposure roll of Kodachrome 64 or 200 and processing.]
According to my B&H Photo catalogue (Summer 2000):
Kodachrome 64, 36 exp. w/ Kodak processing mailer....$8.38
Kodachrome 200,36 exp. w/ Kodak processing mailer....$11.08
17 BUCKS !, that's too rich for me.
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS !!
I'm paying a total of about $14 for a 36-exposure roll of Kodachrome 25 (I like the slow stuff) and processing. I buy 20 rolls at a time but dribble them back to the same store for shipment to Kodak for processing. Once upon a time that was only a couple of months' worth of film but now I don't use that much in a year. Fortunately, film freezes well - well enough, in fact, that my father is still getting good results from some Ektachrome he froze nearly 20 years ago, when they stopped spooling it in 120 size. Kodak will still process it, unmounted only, but that's OK since he still prefers glass mounts. He shoots a half dozen rolls a year, 12 exposures to the roll, so he figures he won't run out for another ten years or so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All my 35 year old Ektachrome slides have lost all their color. I neglected to take pains to store them in such a way as to maximize durability.
Yes, that has been an issue with Ektachrome - one of the reasons that I use Kodachrome myself, despite a slight preference for Ektachrome's color rendition. Fujichrome is even more unstable if the slides are not stored under absolutely ideal conditions - I took one roll of Fujichrome on a vacation in 1993 and those pictures (of the carousel in East Haven, near BERA) have faded almost to oblivion, despite only being shown a couple of dozen times.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mike, Do yourself a favor, Buy a roll of Kodachrome and have the slides made into prints THE COLOR WILL BLOW YOU AWAY ! that's how the pros shoot color prints. I'm not a slide buff but for the important stuff, I reach for the red and yellow box!
Agreed (although I prefer Fuji Velvia 50). The investment in a dedicated slide scanner is worth it if you're serious. A scanner like that will also scan (probably) from 35mm negatives which will give better results than any print/print scanner combination. I use a Minolta QuickScan 35 (which I think is no longer in production). If I were to buy a new one I'd investigate a batch loader for slides option.
Nowadays you also have the option to shoot slides, scan them at very high quality on a slide scanner, convert to high quality JPG, and upload to a digital printing service like www.printroom.com. I've used Printroom for prints from slides and digital camera and have been very impressed with the quality (a 1600x1200 JPG at 95% quality will yield a pretty good 8x10" print). They're cheap too... $0.39 for a 4x6".
-Dave
P.S. about Printroom. I've done some tests. I've sent them files as small as 768x512 (some of Joe Testagrose's pictures from the site) and gotten really good 4x6" prints out of them. Printroom will give you a warning with a file that small but you can pretty much ignore it. The quality is impressive.
I should really attend those meetings. Where are they and when are they?
Haddonfield Boro Hall, second floor, 4th Monday, 7:30 PM. December meeting will be Thursday Dec 28. Free parking in municipal lot behind Boro Hall.
You are encouraged to attend at your earliest opportunity. The Membership Chairman will welcome you personnally and enthusiastically.
Your aversion to slides is a generational thing. Many railfans my age have slide projectors. Scanning is a recent phenomenon.
West Jersey Chapter website.
What is the railfan obsession with slides? I can't stand slides and I have never used them. They are more expensive and are a bitch to scan, not to mention you need a projector to properly view them. Can't they just pass around photographs?
Invariably, most of the passed-around photographs would come back wrinkled, covered with fingerprints, or would disappear entirely. In addition, the narrator wouldn't be able to discuss things on the photographs if only one person can see each one at a time.
Using the W train & the two Q trains when the flip-flop of Manhattan Bridge in 2001 doesn't make sense.
Why can't they just use the B train & the D & Q trains along the Broadway line when the flip-flop accurs.
I would like to know on why NYCT is using the W train & the two Q trains instead.
CALL SOMEONE UP AT THE TA! This is the plan and 9 times out of 10, That's how it's gonna go down!!!!!
The TA never stood for common sense, I love the TA to death, but it's just that way!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
"q" and "w" are next to each other on the typewriter... it was a natural choice....
As far as I know they are using the Broadway line. The express tracks will be reactivated.
Maybe if you read the other posts, instead of just skimming them, you'd have seen the answer repeated only 15 times.
-Hank
To prevent confusion. Of course, the 2 Q trains will only confuse Brighton line riders, so the plan is far from perfect. But if the city continues it's amazingly stupid refusal to run any Montague St. trains down the Brighton line, it's the only logical choice.
Way to kick some Yankee @$$!
7 > 4
And just think, we all got on David's case when he decried the off-topic posts. There's off-topic, and there's idiotic. Guess which category the post above fits.
-Hank
Hank: He did get carried away a little. But with what had happened it the first two games, you know as well as I do that all Mets fans were a little bit hot under the collar and completely frustrated. Here's hoping we don;t take too much advantage of Dave's generosity. In a week we will all be back to normal.
Winning one battle means nothing if you don't win the whole war.
The Yankees will win the series!!!
I'll have to agree with Jeffrey on this one...Yankees will win. Hopefully they will rock Bobby Jones early, and get to the Mets Bull pen asap. 'Course the same may happen to Neagle, and in that case we may have a football score.
While I am not a Mets fan, I am happy about one thing (as a Yankee fan who lives in Boston). 14 years ago today, Mookie Wilson's ground ball dribbled through Bill Buckner's legs, forcing a game 7 in the '86 World Series. I've been wishing fellow sox fans a "Happy Anniversary" all day! -Nick
I love your enthusiasm, but remember we're still down 2-1 in games, and we must find a way to win tonight. If we do, it becomes two out of three and we can prevail. But if we lose, we are in deep do do.
Well we lost. Uh Oh
I think we can win this last and final game at Shea but whether or not we can pull it off in the Bronx remains to be seen. I sure hope so.
Story from today's Washington Post about the return to computer operations of Metro trains by Thanksgiving: Click to read the story.
God, they make manually operated trains sound like some sort of tourture chamber. Wusses.
Metro wasn't designed for continuous manual operation, so it puts undesirable strain and wear on the equipment. Braking under computer control is far smoother and less stressful, so there are fewer breakdowns. With our daily ridership now second to NYC, and having a considerably smaller fleet, taking any cars out of revenue service has serious adverse impact. And, station times increase (thus causing delays) when trains don't enter or exit stations properly.
Besides it being potentially dangerous, why should the riding public be forced to accept a herky-jerky ride anyway? Metro riders have no desire to have our rolling stock reduced to a shambles like NYC's was in the 70s and 80s because of deficient operating practices.
But I don't beleive that trains stop at different locations. I thought I saw car stop markers when I was there just like in NYC.
NYC Subway trains stop in almost the same spot, I mean you would have to move left or right 12 inches.
Being a few inches off isn't that big an issue. A train that stops prematurely (as in part of the train hasn't platformed) has to start and stop (sometimes more than once) to move it into a proper position to open. This means more use of the brakes than was intended. For overshoots, they usually end up skipping the stop entirely, much to the annoyance of those who have to go to the next stop and double back (Metro is OPTO and there's no way to open only the cars that are platformed). Depending on how ticked off command is with that TO, they've been known to OOS, causing even greater mayhem.
Similarly, when a train is departing, it always takes longer to come up to speed under manual than ATO. And we have some TOs who think they're going to get the "world's safest operator" award, who start slowing down long before they're approaching a station, then "glide" into the station. In rush hours, this is absolutely ridiculous. I've timed one Red Line operator who does this and it adds an additional 30-45 seconds for each stop. For the Dupont to Shady Grove run, schedule is 26 minutes; she was taking 31-40. Not only does this mess up the schedule, it causes quite a few people to miss bus connections. This happened to me quite a few times when I was commuting up to Shady Grove in the mornings, and I did everything I could to always get a train before hers (7:20-something at Dupont). It wasn't a big deal if I missed the connecting bus, because cabs were usually plentiful, but for people who couldn't afford cabs, it meant waiting another 30 minutes for the next bus.
Why are they afraid to move quickly into a station? I saw a 6 car ALP-44 hauled NJT commuter trains enter the Denville platform at 30-40mph and stop well before the end.
That's why we can't wait for ATO to come back. Before it went down, trains entered fast, stopped gently and quickly, and departed quickly. For the most part, you hardly felt acceleration/deceleration. Few TOs seem to care less whether they learn the right techniques for smooth stops. Without ATO, it's frequently like a cross between bumpercars and a roller coaster.
Besides it being potentially dangerous, why should the riding public be forced to accept a herky-jerky ride anyway?
PATCO trains run in ATO offer one of the most herkey jersey rides around. I would say that manual operation comes as a comfort, but sorta like the herkey jersey. Its gives me a rush.
Washington Metro? The ride quality under ATO is horrendous!
The control systems date to the 1970s and are practically
on-off. I remember riding around down there a couple of
years ago and watching the indicators in the cab. The train
would start downgrade where the MAS was, say, 40 MPH, continue
to gain speed right up to 39 MPH and then slam the brakes on
at 40. The station stops were no prize either.
Now, I'm sure that since the operators there are not experienced
in manual operation that they have trouble making good stops,
but I assure you even the worst NYCTS motorman could make a
station stop that isn't any worse than what the ATO provides.
As for the notion that manual operation would cause undo wear
on the equipment, amusing. Unless the operators are causing
a lot of emergency applications under wet rail conditions resulting
in flats, there isn't too much they can do to ruin the cars.
I've had a few bumpy rides under ATO on the original Rohr cars on grade tracks but they were the exception, hardly a norm. Since ATO has been down, the rides have frequently been like mechanial bulls on both the Rohrs and Bredas.
As for wear and tear, it was in the news earlier this year about the unprecedented number of cars out of service. The biggest contributor cited was how the braking systems were designed for the more gentle/even application ATO provides versus manual. It was damaging the brake control lines and causing uneven/premature wear on the brakes themselves. Traction motors were also burning out because manual operation was rougher on them. Lots of TOs weren't maintaining consistent speeds, speeding up and then having to hit the brakes fast to avoid getting tripped.
I guess it is a relative matter. If the heavy-handed operation
is causing a lot of equipment failures, the equipment must
be very under-designed. Also, take into account that this is
the laypersonified version that makes it into the press. I've
lost a lot of respect for WMATA after this ATO incident. They
took the system down for what, 2 years, and installed all-new
relays. What a waste of money! The newspaper article was
misleading. The cause of the failures is not unknown. Someone
at the relay overhaul shop screwed up and forgot the copper
spacers in the armature gap, so the relays were sluggish in
releasing.
NY take note: when you design a system that can be operated by
the clueless, cluelessness prevails.
I like the description of station stops in the newspaper report:
the cars under ATO "drift" at 1 MPH until the final stop, which,
in my recollection, was jerky. A real NYCT motorman (as opposed
to a train operator) can hit the station portal at speed, measure
out a brake application, graduate it down and stop on the marker
with minimum brake without any coasting, brake fanning or
re-application of power!
Forget Station Portal, I had a Q driver one morning almost hitting the Conductor Board at track speed with a nice even smooth stop (one application) to the stop marker. He came in so fast he was tooting his horn, but it was a nice even smooth stop. We were so Hot they Gapped us three times (Church, Prospect and DeKalb for the B).
Though he did dump the train at West 4th for some reason while trying to take power, I laughed and I think he heard me...
"can hit the station portal at speed"
Concerning that, the typical speed in DC is about 50-70 mph, while in New York it is 25-35. It is a lot easier to smoothly stop a train that is going at the slower speed. Also, in NYC, my kids, when standing, fall over every time the train stops and starts because they expect it to be as smooth as in DC.
The only two complaints I have about DC metro operation is that 1)under ATO, the train often stops in the station, then realizes it hasn't pulled up enough, so it moves another 2 feet. 2) The operator waits about 10 seconds to open the doors. In Toronto and Philadelphia, the door opens the second that the train stops and, if the station isn't crowded, they start the closing bell as soon as everyone is taking that last step on. In Toronto, the three tones start almost before the door is completely open. (To listen to them go to the TTC Home page.)
In Paris, the doors open while the train is still rolling, and this is normal practice. If a conductor did that in New York, he would be looking for another job.
In Paris the passengers open the doors themselves! The door locking system has a little leeway, that's all.
That is true on most Paris lines. However on the MF88 and MP89 equipment which operate on the #1, #7bis and #14 lines, all the doors are opened automatically by the train operator. There is no lever/button to open the doors.
Isn't there a lock maechanism in NYC which prevents the doors being opened in motion?
Absolutely not. The doors can be opened at any time. Even if the train was going 40 mph.
The TA is testing a "door enabler" on the R44 equipment(A line). With this device, the T/O pushes a button on his console to permit the doors on either the left side or the right side to open. The enabler doesn't actually open the doors, it "permits" the C/R to open the doors on the correct side. The purpose for this device is to prevent the C/R from opening the doors on the wrong side in a ststion.
The R142 order has a 0-speed door open interlock
How low has the worker quality come if door operation is now a 2 person operation ?
It's getting very
low.
Someone once mentioned an F C/R opening the doors on the wrong side at Kings Highway during rush hour. No one fell to their death, though.
I'd run out of space to try to list the stations where the C/R opened up on the wrong side. Recently it happened on the J at Myrtle Av and Ditmars Blvd on the N.
Now however, if the TA catches the C/R it means only one thing, TERMINATION.
What is a smooth stop? Smooth to me implies a constant decelleration with the regard to the magnatude, of course that's just the Physics definition of smooth. Are you saying that the magniture of the decelleration is not great or the system dosen't keep letting off and then reapplying the breaks. I like trains with hi accelerative properties. #1 they are faster and can run longer at linespeed and 2 I can play this little game where I lean against the door guard at just the right angle where the decelleration will bring me to a near upright position and I can sort of hover at an angle.
The dwell time here is outrageous. They will start to cut it down once we return to ATO. While at non-peak times, waiting is understandable and permissable, it isn't during rush hours.
Initial speed should have little to do with making a smooth stop.
More speed just means you need to start braking earlier.
The big problem with the ATO stops on the Metro is they reduce
speed to about 2 MPH and then use a separate inductive device
to flag the final stop, which is made with a fairly firm application.
The IDEAL station stop is made with a gradual ramp-up to full
brake, then a feathering as speed approaches zero so that the
final stop is made at minimum brake. NYCTS train operators rarely
achieve this nowadays because 1) they aren't shown how and 2)
they don't care.
Rough starts on NYCT equipment are not the fault of the motorman.
They are because of the obsolete (but rugged) design of the
propulsion controls and, on some fleets, considerable wear
in the body bolster castings, motor supports and draft gear.
From what you say, it sounds like Metro is way underdesigned, operators are way undertrained, or both.
I think it is a philosophical thing. Metro does not want people running Their Trains. I guess my opinions on this come from the operator who was killed at Shady Grove in 95 or 96. Basically, the speed sensor on the train malfunctioned due to weather, and his train went right through the station and into a train parked beyond at considerable speed. IIRC, he had actually asked for permission to operate his train manually because he did not like the way things were going, but did not get permission - at the time, they were really trying to prevent manual ops to - you guessed it - reduce wheel wear. Needless to say, there was a bit of a reaction to this - it may have led to a senior management shakeup, i'm not sure.
It seems to me that the only intelligent use of ATO is in a system where operators are seen as complimentary to ATO, not poor substitutes for ATO. I believe that on PATCO operators are _required_ to operate manually between two stations on each run, just to keep their skills up and their knowledge of the route good. Thus, they have operators who 1) will know right away, for sure if something is wrong and 2) can operate the trains well if the ATO goes down, for 10 minutes or 2 years.
DC doesn't come close to doing it. Letting operators drive the trains poorly fits nicely into their worldview - see, better to let the ATO do it and not let the operators mess anything up. That's pretty sad.
About 30 percent of Metro's 422 train operators are so new to the job that they have never experienced automatic control and need training
In 18 months they had 30 percent turnover. WOW !!
That's what I thought, too, but I now realize that it MAY have to do with opening the new section of the Green line and the more frequent rush hour service now provided, and with the extension of Friday and Saturday evening hours to 2AM, MAYBE.
Thanks !!
"One train was told to travel 45 mph in a stretch of track with a 15-mph speed limit..."
Relays manufactured by Luciano Industries, Malbone St., Brooklyn, NY.
This isn't that great for me when I am railfanning. I loved the higher speeds from Friendship Heights to Grosvenor. The braking by some T/Os is pretty erratic.
Something I've wondered about for the 9 years I've been here. What is it that the Red Line between Van Ness and Tenleytown slows down considerably in the "peak" direction on weekdays, but not on weekends? Peak times, trains slow down considerably when making the turns off Connecticut Av or Wisconsin Av, and stay at that speed for the rest of the segment. On off-peak/weekends, it takes the turns at full speed and maintains the higher speed or even accelerates. It's certainly not because of trains ahead. Anyone know?
Rush hours it may be because there is a train ahead, since there is a time around 4:45 - 5:15 when they run every 2 minutes. Saturdays it's every 6 minutes, and Sundays it's every 7.5 minutes.
Those Metro train operators are the worst ever. They can't operate well between stations with their constant heavy braking and their station stops ARE THE PITS!!! It feels like a Boston Green Line streetcar going into emergency every time they stop.
These people have no clue. They're so bad, they should call them "train attendants" instead. If those WMATA operators had to operate a NYCTA train, they'd sh*t in their pants.
Nuff said.
This is sooooooo true, they'd s#!t thier pants!
Trevor Logan
YES!!!!
While some are competant, many (if not most) are not. They can barely operate a train without any signals to watch for, let alone any timers. There is no excuse for missing stations when there is a 150 - 300 foot buffer zone in all of the stations. I think that the two handle thing in NYC might send them over the edge. Aggrhh!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah! - They don't spot their trains well at all. I've become accustomed to hard & premature stops, especially during rush hours.
Wayne
Since they went into manual, I have yet to see a train overshoot the platform. Also, they still make the stops at Archives and Pentagon City where the ATO would stop the train and do it well. The stops are a bit rough but NYC isn't much better.
I am convinced that the only possible answer is a resounding yes. Consider what's been happening to stocks today. As of about 1:15, the Dow was down 30 points and the NASDAQ down about 120 points despite a slew of good earnings reports and what is looking like a favorable interest rate outlook. As far as can be told, nearly all of the drop is attributable to a huge sell-off in Nortel Networks, which has lost about one-quarter of its market value today.
And why has Nortel plummeted so terribly? Not because of earnings, which handily beat analysts' estimates. No, it's because Nortel's third-quarter revenues in its optical-networks business rose by just 90%, rather than doubling as some analysts predicted. And this shortfall, if you can call it that, occurred because Nortel couldn't find enough qualified network installers, in other words because business was so good. Nonetheless, investors have gone into panic selling mode and many of them surely have suffered huge losses. A so-called "problem" affecting one business segment of one company (not even an American company, for that matter) has reverberated throughout the entire economy.
Sometimes I think the only difference between Wall Street investors and lemmings is that lemmings are cute.
I ain't paying 29 times earnings for nothing. Heck, if the way people were acting as recently as last March, the NYCT could have issued stock to finance the Second Avenue Subway, promising profits someday. All they'd have had to do is bury the fact that they are a government agency deep in the prospectus.
My own financial wit, poking fun of these morons, was good enough to get my wife and I two free tickets to the Wall Street Week With Louis Rukeyser 30th Anniversay show this November 3rd. Economics jokes don't get you far, but they do get you somewhere. We'll take the BMT, and eat at the Carnegie Deli beforehand.
That would only have worked if they paid some consultants to change the name again to 'NYCT.COM'
-Hank
As for the 2nd. Ave. Subway, Pataki wants to issue BONDS to do that.
(As for the 2nd. Ave. Subway, Pataki wants to issue BONDS to do that.)
Pataki wants to issue bonds to study the subway. He doesn't want it built at all. Not doing anything that could benefit the future of the state is the one thing Democrats and Republicans agree on.
"And why has Nortel plummeted so terribly? Not because of earnings, which handily beat analysts' estimates. No, it's because Nortel's third-quarter revenues in its optical-networks business rose by just 90%, rather than doubling as some analysts predicted."
And at the same time as investors are wary of buying shares or lending money to the (profitable) freight railways for necessary capacity improvements to handle *expanding* freight traffic because it would generate a decent return on investment but not a smashing double-digit return, they were until recently, and to a degree still are, eagerly throwing hundreds of millions of dollars into dotcoms that have never made a return on investment at all! Most of those companies will never bring a product to market much less turn a profit, and even high-sales dotcoms like Amazon.com are deep in the red. But BNSF isn't "sexy" and pyramidscheme.com is. Bah!
Just to bring this somewhat back to a rail topic. :)
Don't let the cat out of the nag just yet. I need to buy more cheap railroad stocks. I wonder if shareholders can get cab rides?
If I ever do an ecomonics project/thesis thing it will be to study how you come out if you follow the "advice" all these analysts spit out vs. doing the opposite. At a glance it looks like you'll end up buying high and selling low.
BTW in my Macro class last year we all engaged in a little game where we picked 7 stocks and our prof. picked 7 via. the dart board method and we all gave hin $5 and if we beat his picks he would give us $10. Well his darts yielded 25% in 2 months and beat all but 2 people. It goes to show that the price of a stock contains all known information about a company and the only thing that can change the value are "undeterminable" events. So you either need to have "inside" information, information that others have not recieved yet (hard) or make up information that others will believe and then act upon.
If I ever do an ecomonics project/thesis thing it will be to study how you come out if you follow the "advice" all these analysts spit out vs. doing the opposite. At a glance it looks like you'll end up
buying high and selling low.
I totally agree on that. Most of these analysts are considered to be experts solely because they say they are experts. In the long run, few of them beat mere random chance when it comes to investment results.
What is somewhat disturbing is the way the financial press confers Voice-of-Wisdom-from-Mount-Olympus upon the analysts du jour. This naturally leads many investors to engage in lemming-like behavoir, frequently to their ultimate dismay. Yet the analysts - and investors - keep right on comin'.
Several years ago there was a proxy fight in TIAA-CREF (college independent/portable pension) over paying $300k/year for the person who managed the bond fund. The typically frugal profs didn't want that much of their money to go to a salary, but the Directors pointed out that they were competing with banks, insurance companies and mutual funds for a professional bond trader, and had to pay that much to get a good one. Farther along in the prospectus, I noticed that the bond fund was worth $100 million and had cost $103 million. They were paying someone 300k to lose 3 million dollars!
I apologize for the off-topic post, but it's mentioned in the title.
As the 20th century has progressed, investors have become less and less interested in long-term strategy and product viability, and focus solely on what their portfolio's cash value is. It would be a vastly different world had investors realized the significance of transportation/infrastructure ventures to their other holdings. Had this happened, there would have been less opportunity for our transit systems become quasi or de facto government entitites, so we probably would have had universal baselines for fast, clean, efficient systems; perhaps even the "90 minutes from New York to Paris on a train all graphite and glitter."
Oh, well.
Please do not respond to this message.
I am outraged and insulted. Not only did I waste my time reading this pointless message, but I also am wasting time writing a response. There is no place for this on this board. For what reason was this burden inflicted on me?
I am actually an Alien conducting tests on human stress levels and patterns, and also the inability of earthlings to obey simple instructions.
[I am actually an Alien conducting tests on human stress levels and patterns, and also the inability of earthlings to obey simple instructions. ]
... also known as trolling.
Arti
Let's see you try and stop me, spunk.
Please respond to this message.
Welcome to the killfile, idjut.
I just purchased the latest issue of Railpace Magazine. When I read the fate of Redbirds, my jaws dropped.
According to the November issue of Railpace Magazine, after older Redbird cars are retired, NYCT officials are exploring the feasibility fo floating the old subway cars into the Atlantic Ocean to create artificial reefs. They would be dumped onto the bottom of the ocean floor for use as a habitat for marine life. The subway cars would have their doors removed to prevent divers from becoming entrapped. Oil and chemicals would be disposed of, avoiding any water contamination.
I was indeed surprised at first. However, if this is the way to recycle steel back to nature, it is really a good thing.
Chaohwa
This was discussed in prior threads !!
It's possible the thread was missed so here is the article.
There's also an article in the October 24th edition of the QC Quad, Queens College's own newspaper.
Actually, it's a practical way to dispose of them without having to remove the asbestos first. The cost of that would exceed the value of the scrap steel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is also not without precedent. Some of PATH / H&M's K cars have been sunk off the coast of NJ, also as an artificial reef.
--Mark
Here's some railfan trivia. Pigs please don't answer because I told you the answer already. The first person to correctly answer the question wins a gold star.
Name all the teams in Baseball that could participate in a "subway" series. Use the term subway very generally.
Hint: You'll probably have to be a real east coast railfan to get the tricky part.
Hint: You'll probably have to be a real east coast railfan to get the tricky part.
You mean a Pirates-Yankees series using the "Pittsburgh Subway" at Zoo Junction in Philly?
The 50th birthday trip of the Reading FP7's this summer ran through the Pittsburgh Subway in order to back into the SEPTA platform at the end of the trip; it was feared that the railings on the FP7's wouldn't clear the platform.
Do you mean currently or at any time during past history?
Now, Chuchu got it right, basically. The full answer is Chicago, SF/Oakland and NY/Pittsburg.
If you're going to include Yankees/Pirates because of the Pittsburgh Subway, then how about Mets/White Sox and Yankees/Cubs, since the Three Rivers could use the Pittsburgh Subway if it stopped at North Philly as the PRR trains of yesteryear did, instead of reversing direction at 30th Street.
Choo
Well its timetable name is the New York-Pittsburg subway. It dosen't say anything about Chicago. Would would only be using the Subway to get from New York to Pittsburg and a train to go the rest of the way.
That's rediculous. The Pittsburgh Subway is in Philadelphia! If you're going go go as broad as to say it would be a subway series between NY and Pitt in that manner, you may as well allow for Chicago.
-Hank
Pitt counts because the name says NY-Pittsburg Subway which includes only the track from NY to Pittsburg. To include Chicago just because that Subway is on the route dosen't count because I can use any subway system as a leg of any journey. It is funny that the Pittsburg Subway is in Philly.
It's still Pittsburgh.
-Hank
A neighborhood asscoiation in Atlanta which has opposed light rail and MARTA for years and years has voted that they want high speed commuter rail going through their neighborhood. This is a historic neighborhood, Druid Hills, which was designed by the same person who designed Central Park. Who would have thought? What made them suddenly change their minds? Perhaps finally realizing that traffic won't get any better, so they might as well have rail going where they want to go.
I guess there's hope for NIMBYs.
You mean IMBY's or Y,IMBY's or maybe S,IMBY's.
...or maybe S,IMBY's.
Sex in my backyard?
"A neighborhood asscoiation in Atlanta which has opposed light rail and MARTA for years and years has voted that they want high speed commuter rail going through their neighborhood."
One factor might be that, in the perception of a lot of people, rapid transit is something used by the poor urban "them" while commuter rail is for the suburban middle-class "us".
Perhaps the leadership, and/or the people living in the neighborhood, turned over. Remember, YIMBYs far outnumber NIMBYs, but they are not organized, and do not show up at public hearings. The world is run by the jerks who complain.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
That's how it works here in Seattle. Bitch loud enough, you get anything you want...buses rerouted a mile off the main road to serve a neighborhood, etc...now it looks like our central LINK light rail line may be diverted to serve some crappy park'n'ride in Tukwila which will add like 3 minutes to the trip...
>>>The world is run by the jerks who complain.<<<
Yeah, those jerks who complain. Why don't they just shut up? Boy, I can't stand people who sit around and complain all the time. Don't they have anything better to do? They ought to be spending their time doing useful things. Like how about posting on internet message boards about those other jerks who complain about the wrong stuff -- show them how to complain about the right things to complain about! Yeah, man! And you know, most of them are hypocrites anyway...
...(in case anyone missed the irony!)
It is interesting that the upper class along the Oyster Bay line of the LIRR think that electricfication will bring the "bad elements"of the city and encourage "urbanization" of the area. Little do "they" realize how much it costs to ride the LIRR as opposed to the subway/bus lines.
"Bad Elements" is that like "Radio Active Waste" and then is that in turn the same as somebody with a boombox turned up loud and to distasteful music?
avid?
Radioactive waste is actually bad isotopes, except for plutonium, all of whose isotopes are bad (for people and other animals that contact them).
Are the various maintenance shops and overhaul shops a 24/7 operation?I beleive I read that CI is 24/7 but was courious if the rest of the shops are the same?
There isn't a barn that I am aware of that closes down at any time.
Just saw on CH7 that there was a collision on the 4 line @ Fordham Rd. The train was OOS at the time.... Motorman might be trapped. More to come. Stay tuned......
3TM
are you serious? where u get that from? i attend Lehman College, which means i take that line in the afternoon and at night. i don't hear it or see it.
Apparently the report is true. According to the info. I just received, 2 light trains collided near Fordham Rd. on the #4 line. There is significant damage to at least one car (R-62). No passengers involved but the train operator(s) may have been injured. More later.
10/25/2000
[There is significant damage to at least one car (R-62). No passengers involved but the train operator(s) may have been injured. More later.]
Well when the dust clears it looks like there may be some use for a spare car or two from the 14th St. wreck. That's if the cars involved today are beyond repair.
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS !!
Well, it sounds like a nose and bonnet (or two) for sure and Bill Newkirk's description sounds like frame damage too. As for the Union Sq leftovers - there's #1436, that's a bad nose; then there's #1435, that's TWO bad noses - the only good nose in the bunch MIGHT be that of #1439 No. 1 end (the end facing southbound) - then there's #1909, two good noses there from what I hear, but is that car scheduled for repair?
wayne
10/25/2000
[Bill Newkirk's description sounds like frame damage ]
Frame damage! If you haven't seen the news on TV wait until you see the broadside view of this car. It looks like the Jolly Green Giant sat on it! I've seen pictures of subway an "el" wreck before, but I've never seen a buckled carbody like this.
I'll give the T/O of the train that struck the parked consist the benefit of the doubt. But after drug and alcohol tests are done and he has any trace of anything, look out! The TA will probably go nuts with random testing. Maybe even more wheel detectors and timers to slow things down what we once called "rapid" transit
It looks like two consists out of service where equipment is short to begin with. Maybe the TA will rush the R-142's into service and send 2 trains of Redbirds to sub for the mangled trainsets ?
Bill "Newkirk"
If the train operator is found to be at fault,the result may be an ending to keying by red signals on yard/storage leads.
just wondering if our overzealous train operator was seen at the crash site?
I had that job on Mon. and it seems to me after the T/O took the call-on north of Kingsbridge RESTRICTED SPEED & EXTREME CAUTION never entered his/her mind.
As I heard it on WCBS, there were two trains, both empty, and both heading to Mosholu Yard. Two cars derailed, and the T/O is injured.
10/25/2000
Just saw the news from Ch.4 & 7. Accident happrnrf in the center track at Fordham Rd. station. Both trains were enroute to Mosholu yard for layups. No passengers aboard but both T/O's received minor injuries.
However. the rear car of the consist that was struck was badly damaged, that entire car buckled light King Kong sat on it ! Both consists were R-62's. Joe Hofman was interviewed on camera and said that everything would be cleared in time for the morning rush hour.
I am not certain the buckled car can be towed to the yard being that all the under part components are probably resting on the track. The car that struck this buckled car seem to have sustained damage to the front.
Bill "Newkirk"
GO METS !!
Any unit numbers of these two would be greatly appreciated. I will check with my mates to see if we can head up that way tomorrow being that we will be in town for a field trip.
Wayne
The colllision was on M track just south of the Fordham Rd. station on the #4 line. It happened about 7 PM between 2 trains that were enroute to the car wash at Westchester Yard. The train that caused the collision was operating southbound on M track when it struck another train that was stationary just south of the Fordham Rd. station. Both trains were R-62 equipment. The consist of the stationary train from the south motor is: 1381/82/83/84/85, 1365-64/63/62/61. The consist of the train that caused the collision is: 1370 (both trucks derailed wth end bonnet & anti-climber damage), 1369 (major damage as the middle of the car has buckled seriously &
is touching the roadbed, and the car will have to be cut-up on site), 1368 (end bonnet & anti-climber damage), 1367 (anti-climber & side damage), 1366 (anti-climber & side damage), 1526/27/28/29/30. The extent of damage to car 1369 & the derailment of car 1370, It's not likely that service will be restored much before the PM rush hour tomorrow (10/26) at the earliest.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Source: G. Rowe
What about the signals and trip arms? Why didn't they prevent the collision?
- Lyle Goldman
Can you say "KEY-BY"?
Needless to say that there will be one less employee on the TA payroll after the smoke clears.
Was the train going slow enough to key by? And didn't the driver see a red signal?
On lay up & storage tracks, you are allowed to key by and go right behind the train in front of you. This is so they can stack up as many trains behind you as needed. Of course when you key by, you can expect to find a train ahead of you. You are to operate at restricted speed and extreme caution so you WON'T collide with the train ahead of you!
The T/O in my opinion took a trip to "la-la land" at the worst possible time. To have caused so much damage to the equipment suggests the T/O simply forgot where he was and "came to" a little too late.
They had a crash between a Flivver Lo-V and a Steinway Lo-V on the #1 line at W.230th Street way back in the 1950's and what a mess that Flivver was! It was basically a flat car halfway back. The Steinway was damaged but was pretty much intact. This crash ALSO occurred on a lay-up track under similar circumstances.
Wayne
M track at Fordham Road is NOT a storage/ lay-up track. No key-by here unless authorized by Control.
Isn't this nice. We can't even give a fellow employee the benefit of the doubt. And this post is coming from a conservative Republican.
Lets face it, knowing the warpath of destruction that labor relations has been on, that T/O has a better chance trying to squeeze orange juice out of a turnip than keeping his job.
Hold on a second there pal, the lad who wrecked his train at 239 Yard on the lead has a job. Just not one in a safety sensitive title. If criminal activities were determined to be involved, such as in the 14 St wreck, there is usually a demotion over dismissal, not including drugs and alcohol, read section E of the C.B.A. Just remember in the future that you "blacked out" and don't make incriminating statements if it is you or someone you may know, please don't jump to judgements, and know the ever so important Weingarten Rights
It hasn't been working like that lately at the TA.
The TA has been giving out suspensions and dismissals like they were candy. Before, hitting a homeball would mean time in the street. Now, it's automatic demotion. Hitting an automatic signal before meant 5 to 10 days, now it's 30 even for your first offense. Equipment damage has been grounds for dismissal.
That guy at 239 St.Yard had "time" under his belt and was probably able to save his job through the people he's met over the years(albeit a demotion) and the amount of time that he has been with the TA. This T/O has only a year in title(not knowing how much total TA time he has). Hopefully, he'll be able to get his old job back(and I really do hope that happens. I don't want to see anyone lose their job over an accident), but I know that the TA is going to try to fire this man.
First of all. the train operator in the 2nd train was seriously injured. Let's hold off on the judgements until the investigation is done.
As for the rules, they do state that a train operator who hits an obstruction such as a bumping block or another train will be subject to disciplinary action including dismissal.
As for the cars, both consists are in Concourse yard. Representatives of Kawasaki will examine the cars on Friday to help determine the extent of the damage to the trains. The damage to the cars may be significantly different than that listed in an earlier posting.
I didn't see them up there (unless they were hiding behind another train - I was looking from the s/b Bedford Park Blvd #4 platform tonight at about 6:15pm) anyway if you do get the details as to the damage, please pass it along.
I have the numbers of the damaged cars as
#1361, #1370 (noses); #1369 (body damage); please correct me if I am wrong.
thanks
wayne
As of 5 PM on Thursday, 1370 was on 5 track near the front of Concourse Shop (205th Street side - look south from the 205th St. bridge) with the ten cars of train #1. The other 9 cars are at the block of 27 track (1369 is covered with a tarp). Look south from the Bedford Park Blvd. bridge.
Add the bonnet of 1368 to the list. Numerous cars naturally have shear pins broken and anti-climber damage. The cars will be examined for other structural defects on Friday.
10/27/2000
Train Dude,
At this point there is at least one train out of service. Since the TA is already short of equipment, do you think that a rush to get one or two sets of R-142's in regular service, to send a train or two of Redbirds over to the #4 to fill the gap. (Sorry for the long question)
Bill "Newkirk"
Happy Brithday IRT !!
Actually, both consists are out of service this morning. kawasaki personnel will be at Concourse yard this AM along with TA engineers to determine the true state of these cars.
I don't think that there will be any rush to place R-142s into service to compensate for the loss of 2 consists. During the night, there is a manager responsible for determining that there are sufficient cars available for service at each of the maintenance shops. it is his responsibility to have equipment moved so that it is in place by the AM rush. I'm not sure what Jerome Yds. spare situation is but I'm sure that they will be 'Full' today.
Hello, I've been away from this site for a few days. Can anyone give me the details about this collison on the # 4 line. Thank you.
It happened on Wednesday October 25 at around 7 PM on the layup tracks of the #4 line near the Fordham Road elevated station. An R62 (led by car #1370) hit the rear of another, standing R62 (car #1361). The train that was in motion appeared to get the worst of it, according to the accounts posted here. However all of the details are not in yet..
wayne
the Unit's numbers are Consecutive
Now, I'm not going to rush to judgement about the t/o of
the 2nd train not knowing the facts. However, _hypothetically_,
are you saying that you would want to protect the job
of a t/o who rear-ended another train entirely through his own
fault? {as I said, hypothetically: I am not conjecturing that
this is or is not the case in this specific incident}
Maybe the rear-ending of the train by the second operator happened because that operator had a sudden, unexpected, medical problem....in which case, it might NOT be his fault. I have seen PLENTY of times in my 27-year public transportation career where an employee passes a physical with flying colors and then a couple weeks llater suffers a heart attack, or other problems.
In any event, I think we ALL should not make judgements -- let's just sit back and wait for OFFICIAL word to come out.
true true!
If the cause of the accident was human error, then he will never operate another train again. This is fact whether there was a medical reason or not. And in my opinion, he should have his handles taken away(again, only if it's human error).
However, as far as protecting his job as you say, I would want him to still stay employed as a station or car cleaner so that he can still provide for his family. One way or another, this man should never perform any duties in a safety-sensitive title again.
OK, I understand what you mean by "keeping his job" now
and that makes a lot of sense.
Unfortunately, he may not be able to work again, period. The motorman is reported to be paralyzed from injuries suffered and in stable condition. Lets keep the judgements down to a minimum here until the NTSB makes its decision.
10/27/2000
Another question here the signal system on the middle track. It was reported here that since the middle track doesn't have regular passenger service, signals are few between. Remember the old Sea Beach express tracks ?
If a train operator passes out could the TA be blamed that there was no fail safe mode to stop the consist because there wasn't enough signals and trip arms on the middle track ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They probably could and the White plains line is my first thought. Many years back, there was a fixed signal north of 219 Street marked "end of signal control". There was the home signals governing the entrance and exits for Gun Hill and 219 interlockings, then nothing until an approach for the yard lead interlockings and 238 mainline. This is going back more than 10 years but the thought here is that the TA put automatics in place, even though the entire line is being resignalled today. Typical signalling on the Rockaway line is spaced no more than 800 feet, figuring trains at the max of 55 MPH are operating. To have no automatic block signalling for several local stations is typical old school IRT, which we are quickly finding in the days of 90 day training classes just doesn't work.
If the T/O passes out, can everybody say "Deadman Feature."
running on...
or
If the T/O passes out, can everybody say "Deadman Feature."
Can they fall on top and therefore not be activated ?
Improbable but possible !!!
Safety control
10/27/2000
Well.....I'm very tempted to say if the T/O didn't pass out thus activating the dead man feature, why the collision. But I'll hold my tongue as well as my keyboard until the cause of the collision is found.
Maybe nodded off ! Oh well.
Bill "Newkirk"
Happy Birthday IRT !!
There's nothing wrong the design of the signals there. It's not like it
was an unsignaled track (like the Astoria middle in days gone by).
The blocks are just really, really long, which means poor use of
track capacity if that were an issue (it isn't because this is non-
revenue track), but you still have the double red overlap and
stop arm protection. That protection is bypassed (in a controlled
fashion prescribed by the rulebook) in yard territory. It
appears that the train accepted a call-on to enter the occupied
block, but what remains unanswered (other than speculation) is
why the train failed to stop short of the lead train which was
waiting to go down to the wash.
10/28/2000
Jeff,
What do you think will come of this when the dust clears ? Is the Jerome Line due for a signal replacement ? Or maybe an upgrade on the center track only ?
I think the 1983 price of the R-62 was $1.25 million per car. I don't know what the pro rated value is today, but losing at least one car is a million dollar loss, give or take a few dollars. Now mulitply that by X amount of cars beyond repair. I don't think the TA can afford any loss of rolling stock due to an accident. Who knows how many of those R-62's cannot be repaired not because they buckled by bent frames etc.
Bill "Newkirk"
"I think the 1983 price of the R-62 was $1.25 million per car."
Actually it was $918,293 per car
the R-142's aren't worth that much either. they are actually worth les than 13 million a set. inflation cause them to cost so much.
I set or 1 car?
running on...
a set of 10 cost them 13 million
10/28/2000
Wasn't the 1949 R-11's dubbed the "Million Dollar Train" ?
And that was one million dollars for 10 cars, of course they were high tech for 1949 !!
Bill "Newkirk"
10/28/2000
[Actually it was $918,293 per car]
Or maybe it was the R-62A or R-68 ?
I am sure it was one of the most recent car orders. Wasn't there some of those sqaure car cards introducing the new cars and what the cost per car ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Recent Car purchases & prices:
R-44 1972 $211,850 per car
R-46 1975 $275,381 per car
R-62 1985 $918,293 per car
R-62A 1987 $798,770 per car
R-68 1988 $915,000 per car
R-68A 1989 $915,000 per car
R-110a 1992 $915,000 per car
R-110b 1992 $2,167,000 per car
By comparison
R-9 1940 $41,200 per car
R-10 1949 $77,319 per car
R-11 1949 $121,373 per car
R-16 1955 $121,442 per car
Deep, deep, deep inside my memory bank, I seem to remember seeing posters in the R32 as to their price when they were new. I think I remember them being $114,7XX. A fine investment INDeed!
Excellent memory
R-32A 1964 $114,857 per car
R-32 1965 $114,951 per car
R-32GOH 1988 $575,000 per car
Can anyone give us the constant dollar (inflation adjusted) price of the various cars. When you compare a 1940 R-9 price to today's cost of a subway car, you have to keep in mind that in 1940 the automobiles of the masses (Fords, Chevys, etc.) cost less than $900.00, and the minimum wage was less than 50 cents per hour.
Tom
10/29/2000
Thanks for the info Train Dude !
I see the R-110B is priced over $2 Mil per car, so that means the OOS R-110B cars add up to $6 Milllion as a parts source !
Bill "Newkirk"
Not any more, Bill. As of last Sunday the cars were being readied for their return to service.
10/29/2000
[Not any more, Bill. As of last Sunday the cars were being readied for their return to service.]
It sounds like the R-110B's will be saying goodbye to the (C) local and hello the the (A) express !
Bill "Newkirk"
Why the big price difference between R62 and R62A?
It may have to do with the relative sizes of their production runs - 325 R-62s , as compared to 875 R-62As. A larger production run allows overhead costs to be spread out over a large number of units. Also, since the R-62 and 62As are nearly identical, little new research/development had to be done by Bombardier.
Bombardier was the low bidder for the contract. I guess they really wanted the project.
Also, IIRC that Kawasaki refused the R62A order because it did not want to tie up its facilities - at least this is what Greller (NYC Subway Cars) believes. I do find this hard to believe.
On the other hand, Kawasaki does tend to seek out the smaller contracts when two similar contracts are out for bid. . R-62 vs R-62A, R-68A vs R-68, R-142A vs R-142
No, that is true. I remember following it in the newspapers at the time.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, it is the nature of management to _react_ to accidents and
suddenly spend money on things. The signals are fine for a track
that sees only yard moves. What appears to have failed is the
rules, not signals. Maybe we'll see the introduction of a
silly rule such as mandating safety stops every train length when
operating under restricted speed conditions?
On M track just north of Kingsbridge is a homeball where you usually get a call-on, the next automatic is somewhere around 183 st. The signals are few and far between on M track since it is not normlay used for revenue service.
All of the anti-climbers and drawbars were damaged on the stationary consist. There was also slight side damage to all cars. 1370 did not leave the track,1369 had both trucks on the ground, all other cars remained on the rail. Sorry to say, 1369 is a total loss. We were able to chain and weld two i-beams to the sides of it, cut the group box and air tanks off. After cutting the drawbar from 1370,and rerailing both trucks, we were able to move it out to concourse at about five AM.
I have given #1369 a red box and an "X" and will forward same to the Scrap/Wreck list page when I can. I would guess that #1370 and perhaps #1361 as well will have to be assessed for repair, so they won't get marked yet.
thanks
Wayne
i wanted to take a pic of that car but it is covered and it is to far for my lense to get a good shot.
Wayne-MrSlantR40:
I've been reading the postings about the collision which occured on the #4 line. It sounds like R-62 #1369 took such a bad hit that it is a total loss. It sounds like both the car body and the frame were badly buckled from the impact. I guess that if they want to make a complete trainset out of the remaining cars I guess that they should use some of the leftovers from the Union Square wreck or is they have any other spare cars and parts they should use those to make a complete 5 car set. As to the T/O if he was in "Never, Never" land at the time of the accident he should never be permitted to operate a train once again.
BMTJeff
The type of damage observed here is unusual in that the second car (not the first) was most heavily damaged and that the body buckled down, not up as I have observed in similar wrecks in Boston. The potential for disruption in such an accident is far greated when a carbody buckles downward - especially on an elevated structure where removal would not involve any close overhead clearances. The R-62 aeries is not too popular among the fans anyway, but this indicates a possible MAJOR defect - especially if it happened in a tight, single track tunnel.
Not being a structural expert, might the reason the second car had so much damage in proportion to the first be due to the linkage procedure?
That may explain why similar damage did NOT occur to #1435 and #1436 during the Union Square wreck of 1991 - the train in that incident was the only one left that was NOT linked by drawbars. Scary, to think that the car can buckle downward in such a manner during a collision.
wayne
i think that the frame on that car was poorly built to make it buckle like that. saw it at Jerome yard today after classes. it had blue plastic covering it. i see however how it buckled. frightening! by physics, i think that the car was hit by another which backed into the car behind it and sent some kind of weight to one end of the car causing the frame to calapse. i wonder if this kind of damage is repairable?
(blue plastic...)
oh THAT WAS IT? (I was looking for something else entirely)
Anyway - once the carbody frame is compromised, whether by side impact damage or by buckling as this did, it's all over; the car is a total loss. You can't safely straighten a frame like you can with an automobile.
wayne
oh man! maybe if they stripped inside out they can but, it is expensive to do so. oh well. it will join the two half a R-62 at the end of Jerome yard. yes thats the damaged one. the one with the damaged anticlimber is sitting on the other side of Bedford Park Boulevard next to the barn. you can see the damage. there is a long piece sticking out from under it.
That's Concourse Yard you are looking at. Jerome yard is under Tracey Towers.
Some would say its not even safe to do this for an auto...
I guess with an older car it is safe; our 1984 Buick had its frame straightened after a collision with another car; it went on to almost 150,000 miles and was only junked this year.
Today's cars are a different story, so I am told.
wayne
I guess with an older car it is safe; our 1984 Buick had its frame straightened after a collision with another car; it went on to almost 150,000 miles and was only junked this year.
Today's cars are a different story, so I am told.
Yet it's a story that's been known for years. I have a copy of Popular Science from November 1957, acquired years ago at a flea market. Its lead article is a report on the 1958 cars. One of the featued models was the Lincoln, a huge boat of a vehicle - 19 feet long! - and one of the first U.S.-built cars to have unibody construction rather than a traditional frame. PS (a very different magazine from what it is today, by the way) noted that unibody construction would make the cars quieter and less prone to rust. But the article also made it clear that the construction style would complicate body repairs. Sadly, no one listened and unibody became nearly universal. All these lightly damaged cars being hauled off to junkyards are the price we're now paying. What a disgraceful waste.
... unibody construction would make the cars quieter and less prone to rust ... the construction style would complicate body repairs ... unibody became nearly universal. All these lightly damaged cars being hauled off to junkyards are the price we're now paying.
But unibody provides for more distribution of the crash forces, significantly improving occupant survivability rates in a collision. And I for one place that as a higher priority.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So do insurance companies.
-Hank
... unibody construction would make the cars quieter and less prone to rust ... the construction style would complicate body repairs ... unibody became nearly universal. All these lightly damaged cars being hauled off to junkyards are the price we're now paying.
But unibody provides for more distribution of the crash forces, significantly improving occupant survivability rates in a collision.
And I for one place that as a higher priority.
Does this have to be an either/or situation? Does the car have to die for the occupants to live? I'm not an engineer, but it seems logical that cars can be built in a way that they'll protect their occupants without being destroyed themselves in minor crashes.
What was the first subway car with unibody construction? The Blue Bird?
I'm ready to say the Rohr BART cars. But then, I was not around when the Clark built cars were around.
I'm aware that the Washington Metro cars are of unibody construction, although I'm not sure if they were the first cars to be built that way. I know Metro and BART (as well as MARTA) all date from roughly the same era, but I'm not sure which is oldest. I do, however, recall reading a book about the construction of the Washginton Metro, and the unibody construction of the cars was given rather extensive ink IIRC. (Unfortunately, I don't remember the name of the book... It was a think paperback that I checked out from the Chicago Public Library, and it may have been published by WMATA.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I suggested the Bluebird car since it was based on a PCC design, and I'm told the PCC is considered a unibody. However, I don't know if it is truly the first. The Bluebird predates the DC and BART cars by about 30 years.
What would the definition of a unibody design for a rail car
be? That the upper part of the car body is an integral component
of the structure, as opposed to the body on a flat car design
of the 1800s? If so, the earliest example would be the Gibbs car.
>>> it seems logical that cars can be built in a way that they'll protect their occupants
without being destroyed themselves in minor crashes <<<
Logic is not with you except in an extremely minor collision. The whole theory of protecting the occupants is to have the vehicle crumple and absorb deceleration energy gradually, so that energy is not transmitted to the occupants. This was brought home to me last month while I was watching one of Southern California's regular police pursuits on TV. It ended with a wrong way freeway vehicle striking an oncoming vehicle in an offset head on collision with each car going about 60 miles per hour. What was really amazing was that everyone in both cars survived (only one driver who had to be cut out of the wreckage had serious injuries). A back seat passenger in one of the cars opened her door and stepped out without any obvious injuries. This would not have happened if both cars were not engineered to keep the passenger compartment intact, and let the rest of the car crumple up to absorb energy.
Tom
Basically, if it's a side hit your car is more likely to be repairable than if it were hit in the front or rear. But again, it depends on the physics of the situation.
-Hank
Anyway - once the carbody frame is compromised, whether by side impact damage or by buckling as this did, it's all over; the car is a total loss. You can't safely straighten a frame like you can with an automobile.
Back in the olden days when automobiles had body-on-frame construction, it indeed often was possible to repair fairly heavy damage. But in today's brave new world of unibody construction, anything more than minor damage usually means a trip to the junk yard.
Yeah, but you can thank unibody construction for keeping people in the vehicle. I've seen some of those body-on-frame cars rocked pretty hard.
Oh, general rule of thumb is that if they used a hurst tool on it, it's a total loss.
-Hank
when automobiles have to be junked
Oh, general rule of thumb is that if they used a hurst tool on it, it's a total loss.
Things are a lot worse than that. The way cars are built nowadays, merely having to tow a car usually means that it'll have to be junked. Maybe if the car's undriveable solely because the radiator's been holed, or if a bumper/fender is rubbing against a tire, it can be saved, but otherwise there's usually no hope. And just the fact that a car is driveable is no guarantee that it won't have to be junked. I live not too far from a cluster of large junkyards, so it's common to see flatbed trucks carrying damaged cars to their final resting places. It sometimes is absolutely unimaginable to see how little damage many of the cars have. And I don't mean old clunkers that aren't worth anything. Many of the cars being junked are expensive late models. For instance, a few days ago I was following a flatbed carrying a new Volvo, a 760 model IIRC. That's something like $40,000. The Volvo had been hit in the right rear, smashing the tail light and buckling the quarter panel a little bit. It couldn't have been much damage, yet the car was destined to be cut up into scrap metal. What a disgraceful waste.
In support of my rant about how automobiles with minor damage are being junked needlessly, feast your eyes upon this picture. A 2000 Kia Sephia, less than 7000 miles, and it's being sold for just $3,400. Note also that it has a "unrebuildable" title, meaning that in Florida (the state where it's being sold) it cannot be resold even if completely repaired. The rebuilder will either have to keep it himself or, more likely, sell it to an exporter for sale in South America.
For Christ's sake, the car hardly seems damaged at all!!!
It's a Kia. I saw a crash test of onee of their cars, the door seperated from the frame at the hinges in a 40mph frontal barrier crash. It's very lightly built.
You can't judge how badly a vehicle is damaged by a simple visual inspection. Just because the only damage you see is a ruined fender, doesn't mean the frame and axle aren't bent beyond economical repair. And of course, don't forget that it's the insurance companies that make the decision on this, not the owner.
-Hank
Go to a REPUTABLE INDEPENDENT body shop DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT go to a shop that your insurance company referred you to. Under N.Y.S. LAW, insurance companies can't force you to take your car to a particular shop. Insurance companies break the law all the time and the less they get away with, the better off us little people are. BLOW THEM IN.
yes they are lightly built. however the crash test you were refering about was from the Kia Sephia that was built from 1994-1997. the one
in the picture, that body was unibody constructed starting in 1998 from the ground up. that faired a better crash test than its predecessor. it now has a marginal crash test rating marked up from worse. the company went through alot of testing and physics before they put that car out on the road. and that price is under rated by insurance companies. its worth alot more. that car goes for about 10 grand brand new. after the damage it recieved in the picture. the body is worth 8,000. these cars are excellent piece of work they aren't the best. but they can hold up to all the others, but are judged by favortism and stereotype. i own one and after 36,000 miles it's still running problem free.
May you never meet an oncoming vehicle or a brick wall unintentionally.
I bought a Sunfire, mostly because it was three grand cheaper than the similarly-equipped Saturn, before I got my rebates and discounts.
-Hank
There are some who say a Kia is not worth much more than $3500 to begin with. What a piece of crap! Worse than a Hundai (sp)
Peace,
ANDEE
hold up! i have a Kia. it holds up to a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla. it out performs them in acceleration tests. since bought in 1999 i never had a problem with it. they are worth more than $3,500 . they are worth 8,000. also Hyundai ain't the worst car anymore. its Sonata out sold camry's this year, its also top quality. you should stop judging these Korean machines on their past. take a ride in them
before you talk. the reason say its not worth more than 3,500 is because its a new car from a country thought to make cheap things. its a stereotype.
its rebuildable. i've seen Sephia's with much worse damage than that and built back to new. all that car needs is new doors, weld out rear fender, new bumper and adjustment on the trunk. whoever is selling it don't know what they are talking about. unrebuildable, paleeeeaaaaze! i guess that website is from another state where laws are different on rebuilding cars. if that was a Honda, Toyota, it would probably be unrebuildable too. if it weren't rebuildable, no one would sell it unless it can be used for parts.
its rebuildable. i've seen Sephia's with much worse damage than that and built back to new. all that car needs is new doors, weld out rear fender, new bumper and adjustment on the trunk. whoever is
selling it don't know what they are talking about. unrebuildable, paleeeeaaaaze! i guess that website is from another state where laws are different on rebuilding cars. if that was a Honda, Toyota, it would probably be unrebuildable too. if it weren't rebuildable, no one would sell it unless it can be used for parts.
The site is from a dealer in Miami, College Auto Sales. They specialize in selling rebuildables for export to South America and the Carribean. I guess Florida's laws on rebuildables and salvage titles are particularly strict.
But you're right about that Sephia, I've seen vehicles with considerably worse damage repaired. Very strange.
yes it is true. if that Sephia was sent to New York. it can be rebuilt. i don't know why they said such a thing. there is no frame damage at all. in that state, when they say rebuildable, they mean rebuildable to be used again the U.S. if u go further into that sight. you will see a 99'/00' Mazda Protege, with massive front end damage and they declared rebuildable. that shows how stupid the law is down there. the Mazda may be rebuildable however engine problems for life.
yes it is true. if that Sephia was sent to New York. it can be rebuilt. i don't know why they said such a thing. there is no frame
damage at all. in that state, when they say rebuildable, they mean rebuildable to be used again the U.S. if u go further into that
sight. you will see a 99'/00' Mazda Protege, with massive front end damage and they declared rebuildable. that shows how stupid the law is down there. the Mazda may be rebuildable however engine problems for life.
You sure are right about that Mazda! As far as the Sephia is concerned, something occurred to me. While I don't know about Florida, I believe that in some states there are restrictions on rebuilding vehicles that are substantially damaged while still held by dealers or manufacturers. Most likely it is thought that unscrupulous dealers will repair damaged cars and "launder" the titles. Possibly, the Sephia might have been damaged while a dealer was using it as a demonstrator - note the low mileage - and therefore it can't be rebuilt for resale in Florida. Again, I don't know if that's the case, but it's a thought.
To settle matters, I think I'll e-mail College Auto Sales tonight and ask for more information on the Sephia. They probably won't respond, as I'm not going to pretend to be an interested buyer when I'm not,* but who knows.
* = Actually, if I weren't 1,300 miles away from the Sephia, and if I didn't have some home-renovation and travel expenses coming up, I indeed might be interested in the Sephia. It seems like a no-lose investment.
You can't unbend an A-pillar, and I most certainly won't feel safe in a car knowing that has happened.
My Brother's car just came back from the body shop, where it got a new left fender, nose, and bumper. They threw in the window motor. Cost about $2800. He was struck while signaling for a let turn when a woman crossed the double line to go around him.
My mothers car needed just a left fender and headlight assembly. She was hit when she stopped the car while pulling out of a parking space to let a cab pass her. The cab took the corner too sharply, and hit her.
My car was rear-ended, and recieved negligable damage. You wouldn't believe where the scratches are if you saw them.
Collision damage has less to do with what gets damaged than with how hard you're hit, and how well-built your car is.
-Hank
Collision damage has less to do with what gets damaged than with how hard you're hit, and how well-built your car is.
Case in point: back in 1977 I was rear-ended. I had pulled my 1970 Pontiac Catalina forward about 20' in the bank drive-up line; behind me was a young female college student in a '75 or '76 Honda Civic, busy writing out her check. Her foot apparently slipped off the clutch and she hit me, doing about 5 or 6 mph. My Catalina sustained a minor ding in the rear bumper; it required use of a Hurst tool to extract her from the Civic (the car had folded around her legs, trapping her).
Another case in point: the "A" pillars of a 1988 Pontiac Fiero will support the weight of the rear end of a 1978 Ford Country Squire, without significant damage to the Squire (the same could not be said for the Fiero, although damage was less than you might expect, especially considering he nosedived under me at about 30 mph).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd love to see pictures of that...
-Hank
I've got some of the Squire up on the Fiero... I won't be going home again to North Carolina until next March but I think I know where they are. Normally, I carry a small camera in the back of my vehicle; for whatever reason I had the camera in the glove box at that point so I was able to get it out before climbing out myself.
BTW, I still own that Country Squire, although it hasn't run since December of 1997 when it threw a rod at about 232K miles. Too much trouble to get someone to haul it off!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How's the body? The engine might be worth rebuilding if the rest of the car is still OK. I'd consider going that route if my Jeep's engine were to crap out. At 407,000 miles, I'm holding my breath, although I've had two different garages tell me it's running "pretty damn good" for that amount of mileage.
How's the body?
Tired. The front seat has about had it, there's some relatively minor rust in the rear, and the steering box is badly worn - and Ford doesn't make replacement parts for that, nor does anyone else AFAIK. Plus the right side suffered a bit when our older son ditched the car to avoid a semi straddling the yellow line and doing 60 in a school zone. No, it's crusher time for the Battlewagon, I'm afraid.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is it parked on your lawn in NC?
-Hank :)
Is it parked on your lawn in NC?
What lawn? Out front there's dirt and weeds, everywhere else there's underbrush and weeds. It's at the edge of the woods to the left of the house, still wearing its PENNSYRR personalized license plate and at least a half dozen bumper stickers. Makes the house look better by comparison :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You still have a nice vanity plate like that on a car you are going to junk?
Couldn't you transfer it over to your Windstar?
Well, the one on the Windstar says TROLLEY. I'll save the plate as a souvenir - it expired nearly three years ago. The only one of our fleet without a personalized tag is the Thunderbird, and that's because our son doesn't want one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your 'lawn' sounds about right :)
Have its tires been replaced with cinderblocks yet?
Is the transmission still in the vehicle, or is it now a vertical statue?
-Hank :)
The tires are there and still hold air... although the wheel covers became wall adornments inside the barn years ago. And the tranny's still in it... it was rebuilt less than a year before the engine failed. But three years worth of leaves have turned the light blue paint to a blackish-brown that looks even uglier than the peeling woodgrain on the tailgate :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can't unbend an A-pillar, and I most certainly won't feel safe in a car knowing that has happened.
But the (legally unrebuildable) Sephia in the picture does not appear to have any damage to the A-pillar. It has nothing but sheet-metal damage, as far as I can tell.
"As far as you can tell"
You can't see if the door beams are damaged, you can't see the frame, you can't see the firewall.
-Hank
that Sephia has no frame damage. if there was frame damage, you will see at the rear fender and C-pillars twisting the rearend to the right from where it got hit. door beams have nothing to do with the car being unrebuildable. they can be replaced. also the laws in Florida are different. If that car was brung to New York, it would be declared rebuildable. laws are different in every state. there is just external damage. not like the Mazda Protege which was shown from the same website as the Sephia. that was a total loss, however it was declared rebuildable. whoever in florida decrlares these cars rebuildable or unrebuildable don't know what they're talking about.
the Sephia has no A-pillar damage at all. none of the pillars are damaged. there for, it is buildable. also, proof that it is buildable, is that it was driven onto the lot. look at onother picture and you can see that the car key is still in the ignition.
proof that it is buildable, is that it was driven onto the lot. look at onother picture and you can see that the car key is still in the ignition.
The ignition key was still in the switch of my '69 Mustang when it went to the junkyard back in '75, but I can assure you that it was NOT driven there - the right front corner was missing! The presence of the key tells you nothing about the car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Witnessed an accident on the GCP last night; Ford Taxi vs (mid 80's) Honda Accord hatchback. The Honda was in bad shape to start with I assume, since the accident was caused by its hood slamming into the windsheild at 50. I took a look, the entire latch assembly had been yanked off the fram rail it was previuously attached to. She stopped, and the taxi rear-ended her. The engine was still running, and when we tried to switch it off, the key snapped off in the ignition. They towed it while it was running. I played a little bit of hero helping to force the door open; she was kinda panicy. Oddly, while the entire rear of the car was folded, none of the window glass was broken.
-Hank
The hood on the Honda was probably a non-OEM replacement - ther was a big issue a few years ago about the use of substandard replacement parts, and I believe one of the incidents cited was a similar case of a hood opening when the latch assembly pulled loose. The reason for this tendency is that the original equipment latch assembly is attached to the hood by a shaft that is inserted into a hole, with the end of the shaft then being "squashed" into a mushroom shape to keep it from comming out, while the replacement hoods generally use spot welding only.
subfan
Witnessed an accident on the GCP last night; Ford Taxi vs (mid 80's) Honda Accord hatchback. The Honda was in bad shape to start with I assume, since the accident was caused by its hood slamming into the windsheild at 50. I took a look, the entire latch assembly had been yanked off the fram rail it was previuously attached to. She stopped, and the taxi rear-ended her. The engine was still running, and when we tried to switch it off, the key snapped off in the ignition. They towed it while it was running. I played a little bit of hero helping to force the door open; she was kinda panicy. Oddly, while the entire rear of the car was folded, none of the window glass was broken.
Towed it while still running? Yikes, that tow-truck operator must've been a dope; he simply could have yanked the wires out of the distributor, and the engine would have shut off.
How much damage did the taxi sustain?
Whole front end was demolished, airbags popped. I left before the wreckage did, but I didn't notice anything after they hooked the car up; it was still running then.
-Hank
Condition of Ford taxi that rear-ended a Honda Accord
Whole front end was demolished, airbags popped.
Doesn't surprise me. Hondas are well-known for being strongly built (as are, somewhat surprisingly, Hyundais).
Here's an even better one: I was driving my three-week old Ford Thunderbird on Interstate 10 between Phoenix and Tucson at night four years ago, just after they raised the speed limit to 75 miles an hour, and ran up on the back of a 1979 VW Jetta station wagon with one of its tail lights out. I was still doing about 65 when we hit, and the Jetta was going about 55. It was knocked off the road, three of the four doors were frozen shut and the rear left window was shattered (fortunately, no one was hurt). My damage -- silver paint from the Jetta's rear bumper on my license plate, Cost to repair $2.50 (paint remover). A classic example of the transfer of momentum, and cemented by belief that 75 mph is too fast for night driving.
the A-pillar wasn't damaged. look again.
Could not agree with you more. Repair estimates vary wildly between insurance company appraisers and unassociated auto shops. One differed by nearly one-third of the total cost, in my experience.
I agree with jrf, since the t/a has redone the coupling system on these cars. this may have had a lot to do with the way this car was lost.
The question is an interesting one and one that certainly needs to be looked at. At an end of a car with a standard H2C coupler, there is a certain amount of play to be found. Most motormen who work the yards know this because when we encounter uncoupling problems, we "put a stretch" on the train before hitting the locks with a hammer. The movement is only 2-3 inches but I don't know if that same 'play' is available at ends with a link bar. That might be a contributing factor. By the same token, each end is protected by shear pinsand they shold absorb a considerable amount of the impact. As I said previously, the engineers will be looking this one over very carefully.
Thanks !!
BTW are you glad that the series ended at Shea so that you don't have the mess/vandalism that would of occured if it had been won at Yankee Stadium?
Have a nice weekend!!
That's an interesting issue. AFAIK, on the linked sets, the drawbar
is installed in place of the coupler head. I.e. it is mounted
to the coupler carrier/draft gear assembly, which means it
should have the same benfit of the draft & buff damping springs.
I don't know about the shear pins/
Try 1369 for starts. The unit is probably destroyed beyond repair.
Let's suppose that 1370, 1368, 67 and 66 are evetually repaired. Since these cars became part of a linked 5-car consist, what happens to these 4 cars? Do they sit idle until a "replacement" for 1369 is found, or will they be broken up and reassigned to, say, the Times Square -Grand Central shuttle?
--Mark
I believe a few R62's from the Union Sq. wreck are still lying around, waiting for mates. I'd assume as many of the cars that can be repaired will be linked as "mismatched" sets. The TA can't afford to allow any functioning cars to sit around doing nothing.
Considering that the TA has work cars that are built on what are essentially R62 frames (the pump cars are R62 spare carbodies, IIRC), perhaps an attempt at a 'frame transplant' would occur?
-Hank
They have a few options. As Chris R16 points out, they might be a few cars from the Union Square wreck with no mates. They'll be able to put them together and get a 5-car set. They can also grab a few R62As, since they can run with R62s, and make them into a 5-car set. Or, finally, they can make the cars single again and send them to work with the R62As Singles at Livonia Yard.
running on...
or
Saw on channel 4 that one train rear ended another on the express (middle) track. How could this happen? Aren't there supposed to be signals that keep trains far enough apart? Did a trip arm fail?
yes i know now. i was around there last nite. i drove down to see what was going on. all i asaw from under the el was an R-62 in the middle, a southbound R-62 and a northbound R-142 world series. couldn't get much more because of the amount of police action that was around there. i tried to drive down more on Jerome avenue but, the street has been detoured and too many cops stopped me from going through. i was shocked to hear that one of the cars buckled.
Yes, car #1369 seemed to take the brunt of the impact. I was on it this morning and after looking at it from the inside and out, it's hard to believe that 1370 was the lead motor and had such reletively little damage.
law of pysics. i can the buckled car be repaired? i assume its like a regular automobile, which is virtually fixable at any condition.
Not if the frame is damaged. Once you bend/break a frame, it's a total loss.
-Hank
Steve, you mentioned that Kawasaki reps would be inspecting the cars...Are these reps the same ones assisting in the R-142 testing or the'yre here to finally get all the R-62's OOS back to normal?
I can't answer that question. Some are coming from Yonkers and some from Manhattan. I assume that they are involved in either the R-142 or the C-3 fleets. They are going to help the NYCT engineers assess the nature of the damage, especially to the cars that were originally reported as undamaged. It may turn out that the majority of the cars are completely servicable, however, there were some subtle deviations that do require a closer look.
Could you please expand on what is the C-3 fleet?
Thanks !!
C-3, I believe, is the designation of the LIRR Bi-Level cars that Kawasaki built. They are doing some modifications in the A yard in Sunnyside.
What if any modifications would be made to the R142s after examination of the R62 framing? I would suppose that if the frames can flex in the manner that 1369 did, there is a structural problem with the fleet, and changes to the new cars not yet assembled could be assessed.
I wonder if the downgrade at the crash site didn't have something to do with the way that car #1369 buckled. The train that did the hitting was heading downhill. Never saw anything quite like that in NYCT - DID see in Boston MBTA a Red Line car buckle UPWARD, and didn't one of the R46's involved in the Steinway St crash (the one on the "R" train, IIRC) buckle upward as well?
wayne
"and didn't one of the R46's involved in the Steinway St crash (the one on the "R" train, IIRC) buckle upward as well? "
No! The Steinway 'collision' occurred on a curve. Other than some shear pins and some bent anticlimbers there was no damage to any cars. In fact, the cars added (coupled)on the curve.
actually, it happened after the curve. the train was running under ten miles an hour when it hit. bent anticlimber is all that happened. no buckling. why the hell it buckled anyway? (talking bout' R-62) how fast was it going? is there a hole in the rough after it buckled? i tried to take a pic of it just now but i don't think it will come out to well. it is exposed and i thought there was a hole in it.
As for car #1369, the car is bent like a 'V' with a hole in the floor at the apex. Both ends at the roofline are buckled.
As to how fast the train was going, it's a fairly simple math problem. Here's a hint:
An R-62 weighs roughly 75,000 Lbs so ten cars weigh 750,000 Lbs. Each coupler is protected by 4 shear pins - each requiring 180,000 ft/lb to break. If 72 shear pins were broken you can pretty much know the minimun force required to break them. From that, you should be able to determine the minimum speed the train was traveling.
The answer may suprise you.
my my my !
okay, I am missing something.
72 pins @ 180 k ftlbs=12, 960 k divided by 750 k lbs = 17.28 ft per (time)?
If you assume instantaneous impact (1 sec) then 17.28 ft/sec x 60 sec x 60 min ddivide 5280 ft = 11.78 18 18 m p h .
Railfans note that Humpyard impact speeds regularly exceed 10 mph which is why "cushion cars" are necessary.
PS why do you think somwe cars
Your math is correct. The only thing you are missing is that I said the minimum speed would be X. In other words, if only the shear pins were broken, the train would be going in excess of 11.75 MPH. Considering that there was damage other than shear pins, the speed had to be somewhat in excess of that speed.
I'm not sure I agree mathematically with a simple linear analysis
and picking an arbitrary 1 second to divide out by. But, judging
from the damage, it looks like about a 20 MPH hit.
I am not trying to judge- but isnt there a tower operator somewhere that controls movement from/to a yard and mainline? shouldnt the tower have seen the two trains approaching and warned one or both?
I think from Union Square that now towers have to avoid moving switches if a train is approaching at excessive speed.
If you look at a model board, you can watch train movements in and out of blocks only (unlike what was portrayed in "The taking of Pelham 123"). In the situation leading to the collision, if the tower operator was watching the model board, he/she would have seen wash train #3 pull up behind wash train #2. He/she would have only seen two adjacent lights lit. One would expect this since the train was supposed to key up to the train in front of him. The tower-person would have no indication as to whether #3 stopped behind #2 or ran into it, just by watching the model board. He'd only know which blocks were occupied and which were not.
Just wondering.. What is the recommended speed when doing a coupling operation to prevent damage?
Whatever speed the train gives you when you are stopped and moving the controller into the "Switch" position from "Coast"
running on...
Oy vey, no, one does not make an add in switching! One
brings the consist up within a few feet of the other section,
after making the appropriate safety stops mandated by the rulebook,
checks the couplers for alignment, and then takes a quick hit
of power. The impact should occur at 1-2 MPH.
Thanks !!
Two more bits of information related to the 'incident'. First, as I suspected after eye-balling the cars, more than 3 cars may have sustained 'significant' damage. Second, the cars involved are not owned by the NYCT.
Then who owns them?
They are owned by large corps. or holding companies. They are leased to the NYCT and the owners get a tax shelter. This was done with some R-62s, R-68s and M-3s on LIRR (not sure about metro-north).
This is becoming more and more a "standard" procedure with transit equipment, due to its high costs.
The agency where I drive transit buses did this as far back as 1983. They were purchasing a fleet of 105 Gillig Phantom junk...er, buses. The financing was set up by a major fast food chain....who retained ownership for seven years, got the depreciation tax credit, which far outweighed the depreciated price they then sold the buses to our agency for.
Is there hope for any of the cars? I can't help but wonder if we're going to see another R-62 odd couple (like 1438 at the end of a consist) on the road, and perhaps have donor cars give parts to get others rolling.
Are these cars going to be at Concourse indefinitely, or will they be shifted to 207th St/Coney Island Yard for dead storage/and or repair?
-Stef
One consist is due to be moved to jerome Shop. Unlike most NYCT cars, there are insured. No decision has been made as to which cars or how many cars, in the two consists, will be retired. I am reasonably sure that more than 3 cars will go.
These cars are insured by an outside insurance interest? Most
of the NYC Transit system is self-insured. I imagine having the
cars on a lease-back loophole deal (surprised that Larry Littlefield
hasn't made a comment on this yet) complicates the issue when one
(or more) of them gets wrecked.
>>> Unlike most NYCT cars, there are insured <<<
I would assume the beneficiaries of the insurance are the owners / lessors, not the TA.
Tom
Any idea yet of the speed when it occured?
I must be missing something.
72 pins @ 180 k ftlbs=12, 960 k divided by 750 k lbs = 17.28 ft per (time)?
If you assume instantaneous impact (1 sec) then 17.28 ft/sec x 60 sec x 60 min ddivide 5280 ft = 11.78 18 18 m p h .
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets say 7.2 pins @ 180K = 1.2960 divided by 750k lbs = 1.728 ft per time.
If you assume instantaneous impact (1 sec) then 1.728 ft/sec x 60 sec x 60 min ddivide 5280 ft = 1.178 m p h .
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Extrapolation seems to get nuttier. If you say 1 pin was damaged that could be 1.178 mph / 7.2 = .1626 mph !!!!
Time to call Heypaul for some tutoring.
Tom
Thanks - I thought that someone mentioned that the last car of the "R" train had a buckled floor.
Maybe I am thinking of the 179th Street tunnel crash and the damage to
R46 #941.
thanks
wayne
Car #941 met a very interesting end. It was destroyed in a collision at 179th St. It sat in Jamaica Yard for 5 years until Morrison Knudsen bought it from the NYCT. Parts of the skin were used to repair other cars going through overhaul in Hornell, NY. However, 1/3 of the car was shipped to Buffalo, NY. In November or 1991, (IIRC), the remains or car #941 was fitted with piece of R-46 flooring. The car was then installed over a furnace and burnt to test the fire retarding properties of the flooring. In order to pass, it had to withstand 1550 degrees F. for 20 minutes. The floor withstood it for 35 minutes before the test was terminated. The maximum temp. recorded on the other side of the floor was a tad over 150 degrees.
BTW: I learned two things during that trip. First, never fly a Fokker 60 (USAir) in the snow. Second, never go to Buffalo in late November for any reason.
Talk about baptism by fire! A worthy "second life" for a "retired" subway car.
BTW, Steve, I WILL most certainly take your advice on Buffalo...
BMTman
BTW, Steve, I WILL most certainly take your advice on Buffalo...
Take my advice on the Fokker-60 also if any airline is still flying them.
you must mean a fokker F-28, which has about 65 seats, US Air had those (all gone) and now has F-100's, (F27's and 50's are props)
That's the one. No slats on the wing and very unstable.
never fly a Fokker 60 (USAir) in the snow.
I avoid puddle jumpers and TreeTop Expresses whenever possible :)
--Mark
Never mind a Fokker 60 in the snow....just stay away from US Air, PERIOD!!
They seem to have their "Annual Plane Crash" in the winter.
US Air was formerly known as Allegheny Airlines, or "Old Agony", as people liked to refer to them. The Mets used to fly on Allegheny during the later years of ownership by the penny-pinching Payson family.
Wayne-MrSlantR40:
Maybe the way the car was nit hit may have caused it to buckle downward instead of upward. I wish I could figure that one out.
BMTJeff
As of 338AM:
WCBS AM 880 reports:
"They hope to have service by AM Rush:"
Service currently asuspended at 161 due to "Police Action, shuttle bus provided."
NOTE: If there is a shuttle bus requiring tickets then g.o. tickets would be issued. If they tell peoople to use D train then either a special bulletin wouild be issued (via in booth message) telling D and 4 that G.O. Tickets should be honored or they'd issue block tickets (Which would have been done before the bus was started.)
I expect both lines will be swarming with police and supervision (RTO and Stations).
For today: allow extra time and **expect delays on the D and 4**
do not expect service on te 4 North of 161 or Burnside (Both have switches). The Concourse line is two blocks from the 4.
Update:
1. There are new signal rooms going up along the Livonia el. The only station that I know so far that does not have the new signal rooms are: Junius, VS, and NL. Im not sure about the last two, I would have to check it out to see.
2. Concrete replacement from Chambers to Fulton on the Southbound track.
3. This morning while looking at R33 8980(??) on the 2 line, somebody thought it was cute to put their own version of the NY Yankees logo on the side.
Questions:
1. What is going on at the Atlantic IRT station? I see that there is a mounted platform on the Belmont Spur.
2. Is there a roll up door for the Revenue Train at the curve on the Manhattan bound local track at Boro Hall?
Train#1395Mike
3. This morning while looking at R33 8980(??) on the 2 line, somebody thought it was cute to put their own version of the NY
Yankees logo on the side.
What did this hand-made logo look like? Was it offensive? -Nick
Wasn't #8980 one of the ones damaged in the Wakefield Yard Lead incident of Feb 3 1998? I believe that was the one sitting atop the building along White Plains road.
wayne
Answer to question 2:
Yes there is, between Boro Hall and Hoyt St. on 4 track.
Answer to question 2:
Yes there is, between Boro Hall and Hoyt St. on 4 track.
We know. You just said that five minutes earlier.
While at work, a co worker showed me an article from a local neighborhood paper that states that there are activities between homosexuals being performed at the Court St Station. Im guessing it is the BMT station. These acts take place after 8pm at night. Cops have arrested a few individuals performing these acts. I will try to get the exact article tomorrow.
Train#1600Mike
that happens all over the system. in every bathroom. mainly in manhattans villages
The incident may infact have happened over by the Borough Hall station of the IRT and not Court. A number of arrests have been made in the past for lude acts/indescent exposure being committed over by the lower level of the Brooklyn Municipal Building (until the past few years the building had a direct access to the IRT fare control area).
BMTman
By dumb luck, I happened to be at track 8 at 3:30 PM, when the trainset came in. Here are a few things I noticed:
1. Only easily noticeable difference between First & business class is that first class has one-seaters. There may be more space between seats.
2. There are fold-out tables and seats that face each other in every car.
3. The café has CNN (a cable channel!).
4. The seats aren't all the same color, there are slight differences.
5. The windows are huge, and have equally huge curtains.
6. At-seat music selection.
7. Individual seat arm rests.
8. Adjustible head rests.
9. The end-of-car doors spread apart like the tuboliner, except they are almost all glass and (I think) are motion sensing, I couldn't find a button.
10. The exit doors are large, and move away from the carbody, then slide (again like the turboliner). They also are time-delayed if the Close this Door button is pushed so that the Conductor has time to get off after hitting the button (instead of kneeling on the floor and keying it from the outside).
11. It's bright in side (not exactly a good thing).
12. The café car has really dark windows.
13. Cool carpet design.
14. End vestibules as bright as interior, and its difficult to tell where one car ends and the next begins.
This date was supposedly the busiest day in the history of the New York City Subway when 8,872,244 people rode the trains,
The daily average today is 3,500,000.
Have the methods of counting changed over the years or has subway usage really declined this much?
Fewer people had their own cars in those days, so the usage of public transportation was higher.
Also, 1946 was before suburban shopping malls and office parks, so more people worked and shopped in the city, and took the subway to get there.
I think you'll find that the big decline is in non-rush-hour traffic. Probably the number of rush hour commuters today is close to what it was in 1946.
-- Ed Sachs
Not to mention that in 1946, there were more trains and more frequent service. In order to have that many riders now, I suspect every single train running in that one day would have to be packed.
Back then, I've read, they had very frequent service until the late evening because people worked in factories up and down Broadway its side streets south of 34 St down to nearly City Hall. People took trains to theaters and clubs of all types (no television). Also, fewer automobiles, and much less danger. I believe 1954 was the peak year for subway travel.
Interesting about Dec. 23, 1946. I checked and it was the Monday before Xmas, so all the stores would have been closed the day before, so it would have been a very crowded shopping day, especially only the second Xmas since the War ended, when there was finally stuff on the shelves and everybody had gotten their life back in order. And, back then there were 8M people in NYC, not 7.5M. It looks like everything converged on that day.
Considering this was the height of the baby boom, those trains must've been packed with screaming infants. I wonder if they counted the non-paying children in that figure as well.
Actually it was the beginning of the baby boom. The birth population actually forms a bell curve when measured by years, and the peak is around 1952 or so.
Actually it was the beginning of the baby boom. The birth population actually forms a bell curve when measured by years, and
the peak is around 1952 or so.
1957, to be specific.
Interesting about Dec. 23, 1946. I checked and it was the Monday before Xmas, so all the stores would have been closed the day before, so it would have been a very crowded shopping day, especially only the second Xmas since the War ended, when there was finally stuff on the shelves and everybody had gotten their life back in order.
Christmas shopping was an altogether different beast back then. 1946 was well before my time, but from what I've heard and read (bolstered by my own recollections going back to the late 1960's), people then tended to do most of their shopping in the week or two leading up to the holiday. Contrast that with today's approach - this year's Christmas shooping season's already begun. I suppose the scarcity of automobiles made shopping more difficult in 1946, so people tended to put it off as long as they could, and of course retailers have adopted very different marketing practices nowadays.
In short, if people Christmas shopped the same was in 1946 that they do in 2000, the trains probably wouldn't have been quite so crowded on December 23 of that year.
Having worked in retail, I can tell you that its the MARKETING that has changed, NOT the shopping. What happens now is the phenomenon known as the Great Shoppers Wait-Out. The stores might PUT the stuff out earlier than ever, but what happens is shoppers have gotten smart, and make the stores sweat it out, until the stores give in and put more and more merchandise on sale - so everybody ends up doing most of their shopping the last two weeks before the holiday anyway! The three [or four] big shopping periods remain Black Friday and Blacker Saturday, the two days after Thanksgiving [retail people NEVER get to go away for Thanksgiving...]; the last two weekends before Christmas [i.e. the last two paydays, especially in areas with a lot of government employees who get paid bi-weekly..also about the time the retailers cry 'uncle' and start running big sales]; and,of course the first two or three shopping days AFTER the holiday [returns,exchanges,plus more bargains of course!]. Christmas Eve is only for the real desperate, and always dies by one in the afternoon. So,yes, 12/23/46, being the first REAL post-war Christmas is a totally logical date for the busiest day ever - wish someone here was part of that day,and could tell how crowded it really was!
I was very young then but I do know that during the war and for some time thereafter there were very few cars around the city, I lived on a street in Brooklyn only one block long, and back then there were only three cars parked on the street at night. By the 1950's the block was full of cars at night, and neighbors struggled to find a place to park. There had to be an explosion of auto ownership in the late 1940's. We used the el to go anywhere back then, and were very upset with the fare increase to ten cents.
There is another factor involved in the ridershop 'decline'which I have never seen accounted for - It used to be when you made a transfer from one division [or company prior to 1940] to another, say at Times Square, you used to have to pay another fare, going thru another turnstile [and registring another 'ride'].When the Board of Transportation raised the fare to 10 cents from a nickel, they eliminated this by either taking out turnstiles, or even tearing down walls, creating many of the free transfers which we now enjoy. I wonder what impact this had on ridership counts? They had no way of knowing back in those days what was an 'unique' ride, and what was a transfer from the IRT to the BMT or whatever....Of course cars and people moving out to the burbs had an impact too..but would be interesting to see what impact that policy change had also...
I don't know how many people transferred back then. If I had to pay a double fare, I might walk an avenue or two, unless I were going from a BMT Brooklyn station to an IRT uptown station, for example.
Well I got Pigs of Royal Island on board for a system ride record attempt and we are ready to begin planning. Just to keep things interesting we will be trying for the record, but to hedge our bets we will be including the SIRR and SI Ferry at the start of our trip for the non-Road, non-LIRR, non-MNRR, MTA system record.
We feel we have a shot at this because we will go by the letter of the record and ride every part of the system in the shortest amount of time. Unlike the 1972 guys we will be making some fairly legnthy foot or bus transfers to avoid doublebacks.* No matter what happens:
-It will upgrade my NYC Subway experiance from 2 little trips to the entire system.
-I'll be able to ride Redbirds b4 they go away.
-We'll probably be able to get a page on NYCSUBWAY.ORG with our itiniary and pictures and journal.
-How many other people can say they rode the entire Subway system let alone in one sitting?
The trip is planned for January and anyone is welcome to join us for any legnth of time. We will need all of your help for this attempt. Trip time, sugested routes, anything! So far here is our plan:
Start at SIRR at Tonnenville early in the AM,
Fetty to South Ferry station
1 or 9 to 242th
1 or 9 to 207th
foot to 207th A
---22 hours pass--
End on the A in the Rockaways or some other long line.
Who are these pigs of "Royal Island"
Are they sympathetic to the BOARshevik cause?
In order to set the NYCTA record, you CANNOT leave the system for ANY reason. The other guys had to doubleback and so will you if you want to set the record.
Of course if you want to set your own personal record or just hang out railfanning, you can do whatever you like.
Incorrect.
Our attempted record is "Faster time to ride all sections of subway" not "Fastest time in riding whole subway on one token."
Good luck and make sure to bring two empty snapple bottles :)
We plan to use some sort of mystical thing called a "subway bathroom". I have never seen one, but Pigs insists on their reality.
The men's room at Roosevelt Ave. on the Queens Blvd. line was open when I passed through last week! Probably not intended for customer use, but people were going in anyway. Maybe a TA employee would like to come on the trip, and bring a set of keys? ;)
Coney Island, Herald Square and Flushing all have bathrooms.
The one at Herald Sq. is closed more than it is open.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> Our attempted record is "Faster time to ride all sections of subway" <<<
I am sure you will enjoy the trip, but I doubt that this will produce any record of note because of all the non-subway variables.
Whatever time you achieve walking and taking buses between stations could be bettered by having hired cars or motorcycles and drivers waiting for you at the stations where you are going to leave the system and travel to another station. Once you add these sort of non-subway variables it becomes as difficult to post a "record" time as it is to compare times of marathon runners on different courses.
No matter what time it takes you to complete your trip, the "real" record will remain the classic one fare tour of the entire system.
Tom
Whatever time you achieve walking and taking buses between stations could be bettered by having hired cars or motorcycles...
You haven't seen Jersey Mike walk.
This isn't a course, its a quanity. Our goal is to travel over every single revenue route mile of the NYCS in the fastest amount of time possible. If we had more organization we'd have waiting cars and stuff, but we don't so hey. A record is about personal motovation and planning. A one fare system tour has too many uncontrolable constraints that make beating the 1972 record impossible. Therefore the strong must use other means to overcome these barriers, yet still accomplish the basic goal. Eliminating wasteful doublebacks is one way to do this. I also want to get home in less than 30 hours.
>>> A one fare system tour has too many uncontrolable constraints that make beating the 1972 record impossible. <<<
What are those contraints? Isn't the system shorter now? That should make it easier to beat the old record.
Tom
The trains run much slower from what I have heard.
There are more off peak closures and reroutes.
We'll have to do this during the week, not on a weekend.
Who says we can't leave the system, we are going for the fastest time to complete every route mile of subway and SIRR and SI ferry by riding a train or boat over it record. Most official records (if there is such a thing) are categories that people have made up themselves. Even if we did do it the "official" way there's no way we can prove it. A simple full system tour can be proved with photos and a train journal. IMHO the old record is moot and worthless because the system has changed so much. Its like them declaring the new marathon to be 30 miles and accepting the old 26.2 mile records.
Pork already told me that you guys are just looking to cover every inch of the subway and not necessarily on one token like the other guys. I wish you good luck at doing something that I will never do, see all 468 stations in 24 hours.
Who knows, you may hop on my train while attempting this. I'll try my best not to go BIE............CHOW!!!!!!!!!!! :)
Using creative foot transfers we might come close to their time. Also technology might come to our aid in that we will be able to ride the entire system on a single...Metrocard, ie the Fun Pass. If they ever institute a subway to subway transfer will you be able to set the one fare record with 1 exitance of the system?
Technically yes because you would be doing it with only one fare.
As far as the "subway bathroom", it's called an empty snapple bottle. Hope you're not trying to go while on a curve. Whoops!
i have been told that jersey mike wears a space helmet... if that is true, you could mount a mini webcam on the helmet, and bring along equipment to connect you with the internet, thus providing a real time feed of every moment of the trip... jersey mike could provide a non stop audio commentary of every moment of the trip... pigs could be of great value in correcting any errors of fact or grammar...
put in the hands of the right promoter, this could turn into the television event of the millennium... it could give the general public a birds eye view of the mindset of railfans... with increased public awareness of the dangers of railfans, new laws might be enacted to control the behavior of these individuals...
Very funny, Paul. I was wondering when you would stop lurking and rejoin the masses here.
LOL
BMTman
thanks doug...
you said: "I was wondering when you would stop lurking and rejoin the masses here."
although i have never consorted with the masses...
i have been told that jersey mike wears a space helmet... if that is true, you could mount a mini webcam on the helmet...
Jersey Mike doesn't wear a space helmet; he's spacey enough without it. A minicam could be woven into his hair, though. I think you're on to something.
FYI, I just got a haircut so I look human again. Its not my fault it gets out of control.
Actually I was hoping a few subtalkers could volenteer and let me call them from Pig's cell phone and then post our location on SubYalk.
perhaps the subtalk message board could have a banner area during your trip were up to the minute news of your progress could be flashed...
even better would be a location board showing all 700+ stations with a light going on as you pass through each station... imagine the excitement as you reach the last few stations, and all us subtalkers who are too ill of mind or body to leave the house would be cheering you on toward a fully lit map... after the record is broken, you would have a ticker tape parade down lower broadway... i for one would be throwing down 5000 of my most asinine posts on my fellow/gal subtalk record breakers...
after the record is broken, you would have a ticker tape parade down lower broadway
Clove Road to Forest Avenue, or all the way to Castleton Avenue? :-)
The opening scene of Law and Order was on the 23rd St. station not Hoyt. I do not know which 23rd St. it was, but the mosaics were redish and a non-IRT train went by on the express tracks. They found a dead woman on a bench on the platform. I'd tell you more, but other people were using the lounge. Normally I'd be pissed at them (having already been there an hour), but it wasn't my lounge. Our lounge TV was stolen and our lounge is usually deserted.
Who said it was Hoyt St.? It was definitely a 23 St. station, as indicated by the 23's on the pillars. Actually, that did look like an IRT train going by, but it went by quickly, so I could not be sure. I figured it was either on the Seventh Avenue Line or the Lexington Avenue Line, although perhaps it was the Broadway Line. It certainly was not an IND line. Two other stations were mentioned on the show: Franklin Street, which is only on the Seventh Avenue Line, and Queensboro Plaza, which is on the Broadway and Flushing Lines.
Hope this helps somehow.
- Lyle Goldman
That was 23rd st. on the Lex. I went thru the station on the R-142A a few months back and saw them taping. They were only using the south end of the uptown platform.
Peace,
ANDEE
It wasn't their normal spot of 33rd St. PATH >G<
FYI: Like most primetime dramas "Law and Order" is filmed, not taped. Taping "Law and Order" would be like running an R-46 on the IRT Lex. Doesn't fit.
Cheers!
KP
Gee sorry and they are not Actors but "Talent"... Gosh soory I upset ya.
Not upset. Just supplying a little trivia.
KP
I don't think he's playing word games, but means that Law and Order is shot on chemical film. If Law and Order is recorded with some sort of magnetic medium then it is taped.
Ok, This is the subway line I take to work everyday and Ive lived near it all my life. 104th street station, Broadway Junction (I use to transfer from the L train) and now the Norwood Ave Station. Trains are my hobby, I love them but I HATE the J and Z!!!! Why dont they have more trains on the line? Why does Z service last for such a short period of time? I swear the Z train runs for about an hr at rush hour. And why hasnt the MTA ever thought of rebuilding the EL on Fulton onto Jamaica Ave after it departs Bway Junction. Wouldnt that help speed up service on that stupid curve on Cresent St? And why doesnt either the J or Z run express between Bway Junction and Myrtle?
Well,well!! It looks like I have someone on this board who feels like I do! AND so without further delay,HEEEERRREEEE'SS "THE WHITE MAN FROM TOWN"!!! YAY!!!Thank YOU, your much too kind. Listen, you want know why service is so crappy? Here's why! The MTA doesnt think to highly of you.[nor any of us for that matter]. They realy want to tear down the Jamaica El and replace it with [barf,ugh]BUSSES!The problem is,if that stunt was carried out[it has been tried,check out the plans for the 63rd st.MONTAUK BRANCH CROSSTOWN line]residents in the said neighhood[s]would have a fit! The MTA has never had the EASTERN DIVISION routes best intrest in mind. The only thing new over there is the ARCHER AVE LINE, and the FED's made them open that or transit funding would have been held up!AND WILLY B!? They really wouldnt want trains falling through the tracks into the EAST RIVER,would YOU? AND OH YEAH YANKEES WON! GOOD NITE ALL ''WHITE MAN FROM TOWN!
> And why hasnt the MTA ever thought of rebuilding the EL on Fulton onto Jamaica Ave after it departs Bway Junction.
> Wouldnt that help speed up service on that stupid curve on Cresent St?
What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean rebuild the Fulton Street El? Or do you mean connect the Fulton St. Subway onto the J/Z line?
- Lyle Goldman
What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean rebuild the Fulton Street El? Or do you mean connect the Fulton St. Subway onto the J/Z line?
Hola
what i meant want the section of the jamaica line which runs down fulton street from bway junction to cresent street should just be torn down and an new el built goin straight down jamaica from bway junction to cypress hills street. This would eliminate that ancient S curve from cresent to cypress hills stations. And enough with these people complaining bout noise and sun light and air. Look at what they did to the other end of the Jamaica EL, tore it down and now look. Did it help businesses, NOOOOOOOO, They wish the EL was still there now!!!!!!!!!!!
Well im off for an hour on a packed slow Z train into the city for work!
This is an idea which has been proposed for several years....even by me on this board. It won't happen because it's a low priority. Building new lines in areas with no subway service is more important that building a new line merely to speed service.
If only they would even build a new line where there was no subway service...
like the Archer Ave. to Laurelton line where the ROW already exists or the extension of the IRT Nostrand Avenue line, or the Bronx 3rd Avenue line where the ROW already exists, or the etc. etc.
Isn't the curve from Broadway to Jamaica sharp? I know it's less sharp than the two crescent curves. The line could cut through a corner of the yard.
actually i think for the day all together it runs only 3 hours and change-totally sickning when you think about it.
AM rush, Z trains leave Parsons from 7:10 to 8:20. PM rush, Z trains leave Broad from 16:45 to 18:15.
In reality, that's all that's needed.
Just wanted to know if anyone has had a sighting of Salaam Allah on the subway system.
I would assume he can be found on the Flushing Line engaged in "Project Redbird".
(I think Elvis sightings might be more common! ;-)
BMTman
Well... he "scheduled" himself to be
on the (6) on Monday... yet was spotted
roaming the (M) line by zman..
In Production Now..
Well Mr.SF, he did say that he was looking forward to meeting you and also that he did not have access to a computer. He said that he was going to go to Kinko's for internet access.
Thanks for the tip there, Zman..
If only the "schedule" I was given
were to be "accurate" or "updated".
I was told "the 6 on Monday" yet
that was when he was spotted "on the M".
10/25/2000
Doug,
The latest buz on SubTalk is the Frodham wreck on the #4. Maybe Salaam is perched on a rooftop being the first SubTalker on the scene ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe he was shooting out the railfan window on one of those #4 trains and ran into the next car as he saw the imminent collision....;-)
BMTman
Quote the MVM at Lincoln Center on the 1/9:
"Metrocard Vending Machine will ONLY dispense
up to $6.00 in change"...
Now.. what happens if Stu Pitt (seeking
a $3.00 MCard) approaches a lonely
MVM at (station name here) at 4 in the AM..
yet Stu only has a $20.00 bill on his person..
Does Stu:
A) pay Canadian?
B) jump the turnstile?
C) miss the station agents?
D) wait for an r-22?
Definitely C.... schmaybe D.
Stu's screwed.
The next day after searching 30 mins. for an open bodega so that he could break his $20 bill, his options will be....
1)Carry a Jewish bankroll(singles)
2)Don't try to hop the turnstile again(those iron maidens pack quite a wallop)
3)Consider buying a car(Gasp! Perish the thought!)
4)Move out of NY(not a bad idea)
"Carry a Jewish bankroll". At the risk of not being PC, then what would a Sicilian bankroll consist of?
Hundreds?
-Hank
Thick dough, tomato paste, and mozzerella.
10/26/2000
[B) jump the turnstile?]
There won't be any turnstile to jump. If there is a closed down booth expect a HEET* to be the only way to enter the system.
* High Entry & Exit Turnstile
Bill "Newkirk"
You could probably 2-fer with somebody as is popular in the Paris Metro.
10/28/2000
[You could probably 2-fer with somebody as is popular in the Paris Metro.]
C'est la vie !
Bill "Newkirk"
No need to wait for the obsolesence of station agents to experience this scenario. Go into a station intent on purchasing a Fun Pass, which you can't get from the booth, and only have $20s. If you want to be even more frustrated, intend on buying 4 Fun Passes with your $20, requiring only $4 in change, but discover that you can only purchase them one at a time!
Being only able to buy one at a time is the dopiest thing ever. In Baltimore on the light rail you can choose how many of something you want. In New York, if you use a credit card, you have to press the screen about 6 times, and get a card and a $4 charge, then do it all over again and another $4 charge, etc. For a family of four, it can take a long time.
As far as $6.00 in change is concerned, that's a lot of $1 coins to dispense. If they didn't have a limit, they'd have to have hundreds of those coins in the machine or they'd run out really fast. If you really want a $3.00 card and only have a $20.00 bill, well you just have to buy a $14.00 card, or use a credit card (if that is available on the machine).
>>f you really
want a $3.00 card and only have a $20.00 bill, well you just have to
buy a $14.00 card, or use a credit card (if that is available on the
machine). <<
Excuse me. What happened to '..for all debts ..--as long as ATMs mostly dispense $20's it is the job of gov't entities to accept such as payment at the citizen's convenience not vice versa.
For all DEBTS. You are not in debt to the TA when you buy a Metrocard.
It says "For all debts, public and private" on all U.S. currency. A "debt" is that sense is "something owed another". A transit fare represents a payment for services rendered, even if that service is 2 minutes away or 2 weeks. Pre-payment for a service is not unusual.
Also, ANY merchant can refuse to accept bills above a certain denomination for ease of handling or for other reasons.(How often have you been in a store that advised patrons by a posted sign that no bills greater than $20.00 will be accepted?)
What about gas stations and other locations that say 'EXACT' payment !!
I agree. That is one of the less than user friendly features even we gface when we sell you a MetroCard. Our computer in the booth is the same way" You hand me a $20 and ask for two $10 cards. I have to go through the entire process twice! even there we have no "how many" feature.
We will gladly give you change if you wait in line and ask us for change for the MVMs. If we have the change we;'ll gladly give the change however, if all we have is $20 bills then we will be unable to give change--but then your local store is the same way!
My spies tell me that if there is another ball game in The Bronx that an R-68 will be wrapped. It has already started being prepared. As much as I want the ball game to end I really would like to see the "D" get its "props".
Peace,
ANDEE
I've noticed a plethora of posts recently using the word conundrum.
My spies tell me that if there is another ball game in The Bronx that an R-68 will be wrapped. It has already started being
prepared. As much as I want the ball game to end I really would like to see the "D" get its "props".
But as long as you Yankee fans are confident that your team will win one more, it would be appropriate not to be disappointed if the Mets win tonight (you certainly can't root for them, though).
I am a fan of neither ball team and just want it to end. But, I would still like to see a wrapped R-68 on the "D". Think it would look good and it would move slow enough so everyone would be able to see it.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd like to see the Mets win tonite so they get to face Clemens again. Maybe he'll hit Piazza with the rosin bag.
I'd like to see Clemans do an impression of Bryce Florie.
-Hank
Whoa, Hank! I understand if you are really disgusted with Clemens (you certainly have valid reasons!), but as someone who was sitting in Fenway Park and saw Florie get hit, it was quite a nasty site, something that I would never wish upon anyone...even Carl Everett. -Nick
Everett should get what he gave his kids.
-Hank
Since there's been a lot fo talk about YIMBY's and NIMBY's, I have to say that living in Philadelphia has turned me into a YIMBY. Philadelphia's subways aren't bad in and of themselves, there just aren't enough of them. We only have two lines that don't really cover the city that well. Now there's talk again of a new line underneath Roosevelt Boulevard, which I'm all for because it would bring the system a lot closer to my house, making getting to work a lot simpler. The city needs about four new lines, not just one, but even this small improvement has been halted by NIMBYdom time and time again.
New Yorkers, be thankful for the great system you have!
We do have a very extensive system in New York City and we are fortunate to have it (even though we beat up on it sometimes). Without our subways and commuter trains, traffic jams in NYC would be ten times worse than LA.
I used to go to school at Drexel University. As far as rail transit goes in Philly, Drexel is well-served with the Market-Frankford El, the five remaining trolley lines in the city, the Regional Rail lines and Amtrak. But there are a lot of areas in the city that could use either improvements or new lines. The Philadelphia Art Museum and the Zoo have no subway or light rail service, but should. So could Northeast Philly and Manayunk. I caught the Roosevelt Blvd proposals on the DVARP website. One of the alternatives was a "pre-metro" line in the median of Roosevelt Blvd. Trains would operate off of catenary on the surface and switch to third rail in the subway like Boston's Blue Line. It would probably use similar cars as well.
Manayunk is one of the main places that definitely needs a line. It's a kind of happenin' area these days, but getting to the fun is hard. A line from Manayunk could run from Center City underneath Franklin Parkway, hitting the Free Library, the art museum, and the zoo along the way. I could see it going as far as Conshohocken, if not all the way to Norristown or King of Prussia.
As for Roosevelt Boulevard, I like the underground idea best, mostly because the long rows of old oak trees that line its median are a welcome green break in the the urban gray, and I'd hate to see them go. But I'd be happy no matter which one they build, just to be able to walk to the station from my house.
I think a better subway would do a lot to bring Philly together. It's traditionally been very local neighborhood oriented, but the whole city has a lot to offer, and its a shame that so many people who live here don't get to experience it because getting around it so hard.
A subway or light-rail line serving the Library, the Zoo, the Art Museum, Manayunk, and the City Line area would be a smashing success because those are all pretty popular areas. Having them all on one line makes it so convenient. SEPTA could advertise that convenience. This is what they need to consider.
Manayunk DOES have SEPTA service. I've taken the regional rail there several times, and found it very convenient.
Yes, SEPTA does have rail service to Manayunk, but regional rail usually runs once an hour (except for rush hour) and the fare is more expensive than regular light rail or subway. It would make more sense to dig a subway line to Manayunk, and have it branch off of The BSL, the only thing that is missing is the cash.
you know, i agree with the fact that Philadelphia should have another rail line, but I don't agree with 4 more. I mean, have to big a subway system makes everything so complex, like in New York, although they need every line, the system is so complex. Also, in Orlando, there isn't even one subway line, although they are planning a light rail line. Also, I know that DC has 5 subway lines, but they are both regional and subway lines, not just a city subway. Personally, I think Philadelphia is too small for a big subway system.
>>> i agree with the fact that Philadelphia should have another rail line, but I don't agree with 4 more. I mean, have to big a subway system makes everything so complex, <<<
Rapid transit systems, like telephone systems, need to be complex to be effective. The more places you can get to in a reasonable time on rapid transit, the more likely you will take it instead of a private vehicle.
Tom
Service on 4 train restored.
CONGRATS TO WORKERS WHO MADE IT HAPPEN
Peace,
ANDEE
The news service gets it 100% right once more. The conductors had minor injuries?? I didn't think there were any C/R's on a yard move...
I know...whaddya gonna do? CBS newsradio's website had it taking place in Manhattan. They have since fixed this error and have more details.
SERVICE BACK ON TRACK
Peace,
ANDEE
"Hoffman added that investigators would measure the skid marks made by one of the trains."
We will be waiting for a report on this!
Lou, sometimes you will have C/R's on board during yard moves -- when authorized by dispatch.
However, it is unlikely that they would have sustained any injuries from that accident.
BMTman
C/R's are never on yard moves. The only time that a C/R is on a train in the yard is when that train is getting ready to enter passenger service and the C/R is part of the train crew on that train's first run. Otherwise, there aren't any C/R's to be found anywhere in a yard(other than handswitch yards).
Obviously the reporter had his head up his ass in this instance. He reported that only the conductors were injured. He obviously thinks the T/O is called a conductor.
Tom
I'm a Yankee fan. I guess it's easy to say that I like the Subway Series #4 train(R142 #6311-6320, not a Kawasaki, why not?)better than that Subway Series #7. The new train was gleaming with yankee pinstripes in the front of the train! Much more interesting and eye-opening than that dull dark blue-fronted Mets Redbird train. Hey, what can I say? Yankees all the way! Take the 4 train!
I'm a Mets fan, and am NOT in this thread to start a fight about sports. However, I have to agree with CWalNYC that the R142s in Yankee attire were done nicely by MTA staff.
I was with my wife in NYC during Thanksgiving week, 1999, and rode the 7 from Grand Central to Times Square. The consist of R33s and R36s we rode in--which included car #9610--was in a sorry state. Some more recent closeup images of destination signs on the R33s and '36s appearing elsewhere in Subtalk and in www.zdeno.com clearly reveal they have not aged any better.
While getting other cars there might not be easy, the MTA should at least have gotten a train of '62s on the 7 for the Subway Series. Tsk, tsk...
Julio Perez:
I haven't seen any photos of the train done up in the Mets colors but, from what I've read the Mets train isn't as attractive as the Yankees train.
BMTJeff
The accident on the 4 and the resultant scrapping of #1369 will leave the R62 fleet short at least one car, perhaps more, since #1435,36,37,39 and 40 are all also either scrapped or otherwise OOS.
Now, what do we do with 1366/67/68/70? Since now those cars are pretty much "dead" without 1369. My guess is that they would be the R62 parts cars.
As for single car orders, these rare unfortunate accidents like these can put an entire set OOS, which is basically the equivalent of losing five cars from service. Perhaps the TA should reconsider ordering cars in sets of five/four and revert to either the married-couple or single car orders, which the R62/R62A/R68/R68A orders were intended to be in the first place, and had single car status until the R62's were linked into fives and this "linking mania" extended to the R68/R68A and almost 75% of the R62A's (thank god the 3 line R62A's were mostly untouched).
Having said this, perhaps the R142/R142A, could be the final orders consisting of linked sets of more than two cars. In addition, the R142/R142A cars probably won't see service on the TSQ-GCT "S" line, since you can't modify them into 3-car sets (tho 4-car sets are possible with the R142/R142A's).
Anyway, this crash raises serious questions about linking cars into sets of more than two cars. Losing five cars from service because of the problems of one car is too high of a price to pay for linking cars.
They'll probably either put a spare R62 on there or they will get a single unit R62A(from the 3 line) and link it up to the other 4 R62's. They are compatible as you know and this wouldn't be the first time they did this, there is a married pair that is a modified 40 and a 42(I believe 4460 and 4665).
The benifits of linking cars outway the slight chance of accidents leaving odd units. That is what the TA says and went with when the linked all car sets.
I don't think there are **any** spare R62's. As for R62A's, which car # to put to replace #1369 can be anyone's guess.
Well there ARE the three Union Square survivors (#1435, 36, 39) but all need significant repair before they can be used again.
Perhaps they can cobble one car together out of parts of the three.
wayne
10/27/2000
Before any out of service cars can be repaired and returned to service we must consider one thing, frame damage.
Lots of collsion damaged subway cars bit the dust early due to frame damage. I believe those two R-42's with the blue doors out for scrap at 2nd Ave. and 39th St. have that problem. Those two R-42's were judged unrebuildable and after being sent up to Morrison-Knudsen were utilized as pusher cars. Sandwiched bewteen the diesel and GOH cars, they "pushed the GOH cars onto waiting flat cars. I saw this myself when visiting Morrison-Knudsen years ago during the GOH rage.
Bill "Newkirk"
Happy Birthday IRT !!
In the case of the R42s, the group controllers are GE SCMs and are compatible. The R62a cars are not compatible with the R62s, except in transfers. I'm not sure if the TA would be willing to convert an already modified westinghouse ECAM train to take an SCM, although they have modified B car R32s into A cars. Then again, when the taxpayers foot the bill, anything goes. Maybe Train Dude can elaborate on the future of the other three cars. I had heard that the operator was cut from the cab of the 1370, so that one might be destroyed as well, wasn't it?
You have to keep in mind that in the long run, linking the trains is more economical. I think that the fact the R142 can be linked in either 3, 5, or 6 car sets was a smart move on the part of the TA since it now means they have use for undamaged cars when others are wrecked. I think the next set of cars after the R142 should be designed to operate in a 2 car set as well.
The R142 cars cannot be linked into 3 car units. They can be linked into 4 car sets, though. Conversely, a train consist of R142 cars cannot contain exactly 7 cars in it.
Also, you do need to take into mind the TSQ-GCT shuttle. There may still be need for singles in the next IRT/A division car order because of the TSQ-GCT shuttle, which currently runs two 3-car and one 4-car trains. I am unsure if all the platforms at either Times Square or Grand Central can hold 4 car trains (much less five!).
The GCT platforms can. I expect, however, that the shuttle platforms at TSQ will be realigned as part of the TSQ station rehab. As it is now, the platforms are not accessible, and the renovation will meet the ADA standard for making the station accessible.
-Hank
What do you mean not accessible? Don't tell me they didn't install an elevator in the newly rehabbed entrance! I suspect you mean the gap, which is navigable from Track 1 trains, a T/O informed a disabled passenger to wait for that train and got assistance from the T/O of that train to get off at TS.
BTW: Imagine the nightmare a wheelchair-bound person must go through to get to the exit from the various platforms after the renovations are complete. That new thing for the N/R will add accessibility, but how do they plan on getting to the A/C,E? They would have to add a ramp from the shuttle area to the 1/9 mezz, then they would have to wheel through the passage to the #7 line's ramp that wraps around the single escalator, then through the passage to 8th ave, and find the single narrow ramp to the appropriate platform, all the while ignoring signs to easier methoods.
There's already a ramp from the N/R mezzanine to the IRT mezzanine. The IND platforms are already accesible. The gap in the platforms for the shuttle is the problem, and that's what will require a rebuilding.
-Hank
Nick i agree with you completly, I don't care if linking the cars together is economical or not. We have to look at the big picture, accidents will happen, car break downs will happen, or car vandalism will happen. what will the t/a do when they find themselves a train or five cars or four short of service.
I have to say that the original reason to why the R62/R62A (as well as the R68/R68A) fleets were ordered as single cars (first time since the R16/17/21/22 cars) was because of the maintenance and car shortage issues in the late 1970's to early 1980's. In fact, it took the major car shortage of 1981 for them to take some significant action, because of the breakdowns of the cars caused by the deferred maintenance of the late 1970's.
Since 1990 or so, the linking craze began, with the R62s. And subsequently, the R68/R68As and 75% percent of the R62As were not linked until after 1997. So what exactly was the delay in linking those up? I think that those should have been left alone, regardless of the short-term economical benefits. When accidents like these pop up, four or five cars can be pretty much be OOS because of the linking. Yeah, these events are rare, but in the past two or three years, we've seen 2805 and 2807 derail on Dekalb Ave (I think they were fixed quickly), the fire on 2579, and perhaps quite a few other mechanical breakdowns (which also puts the rest of the set OOS), and now the loss of 1369 (and possibly also 1370).
Well, perhaps the MTA should be a little more cautious, and to err on the safe side to at least order some singles in the near future.
And those will happen no matter if the cars are linked or not. And you'd still be short cars, because the damage would be the same. The only thing you gain is the ability to only swap on one bad car. But what usually happens is if one car goes bad, there is a good chance that one of the other cars is going to be bad as well, so you may as well take all 10 OOS for service at that point.
-hank
But what is the benefit? Its not just money. Trains go OOS less often when there are less total parts in a linked set that can fail. Yes, if the failure happens, its only one car, but it might be almost as disruptive to the rush hour. And part failure is much much more common than collisions.
Can't they just disable the operation of a particular car (at least the doors and the like), and take that set OOS after it has finished a run?
I know they do this in Boston. (Sometimes I see only 5 cars operating on a normally 6-car train because of problems of one car.)
However, I guess that there are probably some rules that prohibit doing this. (Was this because of the accident in 1970, involving a pair of then GG trains?)
Nick
Has anyone seen the preview of the upcoming movie Little nikki with Adam Sandler, there is a scene where he is sopposed ti get run over by a subway train. That train is either a r68/68a or r46. in the sign it reads K-express in the sixth avenue orange sceme. the express part is below the letter similar to that of the JFK express. I was also wondering are these logos on any of the current subway cars- that is the k in orange i mean
Nothing like in the commercial. The K, IIRC, was purple with the Express in it a la the 6 express. Also I don't recall the JFK Express ever having the Express under it, just the airplane in the light blue circle.
We must have been watching the same channel last night because I just saw the same ad and wondered the same thing...It looked more like an R68 to me...and yes the K WOULD be orange if it ever came back
The K that ran 1985-88 was an Eighth Avenue train.
That was the 80s. I don't want to hear about big hair or Duran Duran. The REAL K will and always should be orange.
I saw a "K" between cars of an R68 "N" train and the sign was Round and VERY BLUE, 8th Avenue Blue to be exact..
wayne
Saw both that same N train with the blue K and the ad with the orange K yesterday. Looks like someone (out of New York) took an R62 and covered a "6" sign with an orange "K".
You and I both did a double take when we saw that K sign.
The K is blue on the roll signs. No orange K's exist.
With post-season ball games tending to go after midnight, and the Yankees having the opportunity to three-peat tonight, wouldn't it be appropriate to have a SUBWAY series winner on the early morning of OCTOBER 27th? I think this needs no further explanation :) -Nick
Yes it would be very appropriate, The IRT's 96th birthday and my 45th.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hold it a second. Are you telling me your birthday is on October 27? I don't believe it; that's mine too. Tomorrow I will hit the Big 60. I'll be waiting for your many happy returns, and if you're an October 27 guy, you have a great one too.
The Yankees won AT THE STROKE OF MIDNIGHT according to Fox sportscasters!!! Happy B-day Andee, Fred, and the IRT!!!-Nick
Thank You.
Peace,
ANDEE
Several times in recent days I have seen a NYC promo shot with a subway train passing. And what equipment was chosen to represent the system? The most colorful of course - REDBIRDS! The theme was something like there is more to NY than baseball.
Yesterday I believed that investors were idiots. Today, I have no doubt whatsoever.
On the heels of yesterday's 6% drop, which resulted from the fact that sales at one of Nortel's business units increased by only 90%, the NASDAQ's down about 2% at noon. Corporate earnings troubles? Well, let's see, Lockheed Martin and Dow Chemical - two huge companies with major operations all over the country - beat analysts' estimates, while Daimler Chrysler, World Com and Kellogg's met estimates. On the economic front, labor costs increased less than expected, which could translate into lower interest rates (which investors like). Why the drop? If financial news reports are to be believed, it's because investors are nervous about an upcoming earnings report from JDS Uniphase ... not exactly one of America's corporate titans, I'd say. Has anyone even heard of the company before?? Oh, and some people are said to be disappointed that World Com merely met earnings estimates, not beat them.
Bottom line: investors are schmucks.
(Why the drop?)
Because the AVERAGE stock is trading for something like 28-29 times earnings, or something like a 3.4 percent return. Those kind of multiples are appropriate for the depths of a recession: "yeah profits are weak now, but that's because times are bad, so they are bound to go up." In reality, we are at the peak of a boom, and the share of national income going to investors, not labor, is also at a bizzarely high level, mostly because people keep borrowing so they can provide the corporations with sales in far excess of wages.
But stocks have continued to go up because, well, they have continued to go up. Any thought that the suckers might be catching on is enough to trigger a run for the exits.
JDS Uniphase I believe is a fiber optics company that has some big share of some important part of communications.
Would someone please explain to me what this thread has to do with subways? I know, I read the thread title, but there has to be some other place in cyberspace for these threads. Now I know why David Cole signed off from this site.
You don't get it, do you?
This site is more of a coffee klatch to many of us. We come here to talk about our like of the subway, and like most humans, display intrests other than subways; in this place, we can discuss them with others who also have similar intrests. This is proven by the on-subject replies to the off-topic messages.
-Hank
Now I know why David Cole signed off from this site.
I thought it was you!*
There is more than one David here, obviously
*I didn't really, I'm making a point.
Financial news reports can't be believed--they're a cross between hepatoscopy and astrology, without the integrity. There seems to be an unwritten rule that every report of a rise and fall in the Dow has to be prefaced by an explanation, and since for the most part financial reporters don't know what they're talking about (if they did, they wouldn't need to work for a living) those explanations are generally bogus unless something fairly major happens--a change in interest rates, strong movement in a major stock which triggers a cascade by affecting an index.
Short term market movements generally have much more to do with investor behavior than with fundamentals. It's a big game of chicken.
Financial news reports can't be believed--they're a cross between hepatoscopy and astrology, without the integrity. There seems to be an unwritten rule that every report of a rise and fall in the Dow has to be prefaced by an explanation, and since for the most part financial reporters don't know what they're talking about (if they did, they wouldn't need to work for a living) those explanations are generally bogus unless something fairly major happens--a change in interest rates, strong movement in a major stock which triggers a cascade by affecting an index.
Short term market movements generally have much more to do with investor behavior than with fundamentals. It's a big game of chicken.
Hepatoscopy? It sounds like a disgusting medical procedure.
Cnnfn.com is notorious for coming up with reasons for every market movement. For instance, let's say it's noon on a Wednesday and the market indices are all down about 0.5% despite the absence of any major economic or earnings news. Cnnfn.com will say that the markets are down because investors are worried about Mideast tensions. That's just an example, it could be anything. Well, I want to know precisely how they came up with that explanation. Did a team of reporters survey a representative sampling of investors? That's the only way to be sure - and it's obvious there was no such survey. Just talking to some brokers and traders, which no doubt is what the reporters actually do, is hopelessly inaccurate.
Well, I want to know precisely how they came up with that explanation.
The explanation is derived from a rectal extraction - they pull it outta their a$$.
Hepatoscopy? It sounds like a disgusting medical procedure.
Sounds like liver imaging to me. That's without looking it up.
Correct. And it does sound digusting.
[Hepatoscopy? It sounds like a disgusting medical procedure.
Cnnfn.com is notorious for coming up with reasons for every market movement. For instance, let's say it's noon on a Wednesday and the market indices are all down about 0.5% despite the absence of any major economic or earnings news. Cnnfn.com will say that the markets are down because investors are worried about Mideast tensions. That's just an example, it could be anything. Well, I want to know precisely how they came up with that explanation. Did a team of reporters survey a representative sampling of investors? That's the only way to be sure - and it's obvious there was no such survey. Just talking to some brokers and traders, which no doubt is what the reporters actually do, is hopelessly inaccurate.]
Long-time fantasy of mine: financial reporters are required to begin with the "facts" and predict the results. The outcome would be laughable.
Pork is right--hepatoscopy was a form of divination practiced in the Roman Empire and based on IIRC the analysis of bird livers.
"A young lover for the lady, or a good fat inheritance
from some childless millionaire, are predicted (after inspection
of a pigeon's steaming lungs) by Eastern fortune-tellers,
who'll unravel a chicken's or puppy's innards, sometimes
even a child's: the seer can always shop his client."
--Juvenal
Shades of Nancy Reagan!
Yesterday I was at the Transit Museum Gift Shop in Gtand Central Terminal. I noticed that that they were still selling keychains that said:
But something that really struck me was a keychain that said the following:
Strange, isn't it? Stranger yet they had this on both the metal keychains and the plastic ones. Since when does the C train run on this part of the 6th Avenue line? How many of these keychains did they make? Do they ever intend to replace the C with a D, as it should be? Very, very strange.
C used to go there few years ago.
Arti
Never did !!
It did, rush hours, until 1997. The B went to 168 St.
I think he meant the orange C never did exist.
Where do you get this orange idea from, the original post never mentioned that. Also the GIF had blue C diamond?
Arti
[It did, rush hours, until 1997. The B went to 168 St.]
That's the Grand Concourse, not 6th Avenue! The B/C swap only effected service north of 145th Street.
Whoops; I was referring to the Yankee Stadium blue keychain, not the 47-50 orange (C). I misunderstood the misunderstanding.
Concourse is a 3 track line.
Arti
The main subject of this thread is that keychain that says BCFQ on it. I never meant it to go down the wrong pipe.
Here it is again in case you missed it:
JTLYK, I bought one of these keychains yesterday.
Oops, I did! Sorry.
Arti
Orange C huh. I've heard of orange HI-C but never an orange C unless you're talking about those yummy chewable vitamin tablets.
I will be making one of my all too infrequent forays into town tomorrow..anybody want to do a lil bit of railfanning?? Give me a shout! I will arriving into WTC around 9-9:30 [or Hoboken at 9 sharp!]Hope to hear from you!
Branford is doing a Halloween thing Friday night , plus Sat & Sun. If you would like to ride trolleys in the dark with some scary operators (Lou from Brooklyn, Doug, Stef & I), stop by.
Mr t__:^)
What time? I'll be passin' through tonight from NY to RI; if I'm driving, I'll stop by. If not, I'll wave from the bus (more likely, since the car almost overheated last night and probably isn't up for another 350-mile round trip).
Friday it will be dust until 9 PM (they might be open sometime in the afternoon, but I'm not sure). Tonight it will be just Lou from Brooklyn scaring folks, Sat. Doug, Stef & I join him ... BOO :-)
Doug says he's going to keep putting his car in emergancy to realy scar railbuffs ;-)
Sat & Sun it's all day from 10:30 AM until 9 PM (normally they close at 4:30 PM).
BTW, I looked in on Danbury's site, they are doing the same this week-end. The Essex Steam train folks maybe also doing it ... Essex would be the less out of your way then Danbury.
Mr t
Hey, Thurston. Maybe I'll attempt to do a re-enactment of the Malbone Wreck -- what could be scarier than that?!
BMTman
...what could be scarier than that?!
Traveling in reverse in a PCC in total darkness.
1227 is coming out of the barn again? Oh, now I have to go. My cousin probably wouldn't mind if I miss her wedding.
[...what could be scarier than that?!
Traveling in reverse in a PCC in total darkness.]
If the BMTman was your look out as you were doing the driving of the PCC !
[1227 is coming out of the barn again?]
I tend to dought it ... will probally be a trolley only show, but the R-17 or R-9 might. I'll go not expecting it. Last Sunday 3 came out in the shop area do to a car shuffling requirement. This was way after hours so it was just Ted, Jeff & I doing it (they were doing the driving, I was throwing the switches).
Mr t__:^)
>>>I was throwing the switches<<<
...and the bull, no doubt. 8-)
Enjoy yourselves this weekend. I wish I could be there. Who knows I maybe able to talk some one into driving up there.
Peace,
ANDEE
Whoever runs Orens Transit Page or anyone else, could you send me the java applet for killing the NameZero popup? Also, is it an applet to kill the popup and then an autorefresh to geocities?
Thanx
Abe
talgo79@aol.com
Put this code in the head of your page. It's more advanced than the one on Oren's Transit Page (which I also wrote), but less advanced than the Subtalk Live version:
<SCRIPT language="JavaScript">
if (parent.frames.length > 0) {
parent.location.replace(location.href);
}
</SCRIPT>
I'm curious just how many of this site are older than me. Old Tom is one, but I don't believe I've heard of any others who are reaching 60. Tomorrow I hit the Big Six 0, and if you ask me the birthdays are coming faster and faster than they did decades ago. I have never gotten an indication ofwhat the age range is for our happy little group (not so little) My buddy #1 Brighton Beach Bob has told me he is a couple of years younger than me, and that possibly Pork is in his late teens. BTW, if I was still living in New York I would celebrate my birthday by taking the Sea Beach to Coney Island, riding the Cyclone three or four times (front seat), having lunch at Nathans, then heading back home on the Brighton. I'll bet that last one surprised everyone.
Tomorrow I hit the Big Six 0
Congrats !!!!
Have a happy birthday. I am 27year old.
Robert
happy brithday you got me beat by 10 years
Only ten more to go. Enjoy your 50's and take care of yourself. The 50's are when you must get your checkups to see that all is ok.
27? You lucky dog. That's a great age, but, believe it or not, the thirties are even better. Enjoy.
Happy Early Birthday Fred! 60 isn't old if you are a tree!
I am old enough to be your big brother, and we could still have several brothers and sisters between us in age.
Incidentally I got the strangest eMail from you today, it is the same one you sent me about six weeks ago!
Nice to know I have an older "brother" on this site. What E-Mail was that? I'm in the dark.
Remember, Fred, age is a state of mind, not necessarily a state of mind.
And, you are only 7.5 years older than I. So what.
And we both rode gate cars on the BMT.
Dan, I had the feeling I would hear from you, I just felt it. Those words also helped make my day. Good to know. Young at heart is the way I like to word it. Have a great weekend.
Boy, did I screw up. Here is what I meant to type. Fingers (and brain) not a peak efficency.
Remember, Fred, old age is a state of mind, not necessarily a state of age.
And, you are only 7.5 years older than I. So what.
And we both rode gate cars on the BMT.
I knew what you meant the first time. And the message was a positive vibe for me.
Fred, I guess we're neighbors since I live in Los Angeles. Congratulations on your milestone. My age, as it happens, is between 21 and death. Incidentally, I went to New York in September, and one highlight was riding the Cyclone in the rain on Labor Day. I am on topic; isn't the Cyclone rail transit?
It certainly is, and if it wasn't it would still be to me because you mentioned the Cyclone. In the rain? That must have been a kick. I hope you rode in the front car. I love the front car on the Cyclone. Is it too much to hope that either going there or coming back you rode on the Sea Beach?
Congratulations Fred. But unless you would plan on a very late lunch, you ought to take the Brighton to get to Coney Island and return home with the Slow Beach.
Hey Q: I'd give it a try but I'm 3000 miles away in cloudy Southern California. Maybe I could have reversed trains. That way I could get an early start and get home in time for dinner.
in today's times page a29, there is a half page ad from the danbury mint for "the subway series commemorative"... it is an artist's rendition of a 12 inch sculpture commemorating the 2000 subway series... it has a #4 r-62 subway car with yankee's logos on the side and a #7 redbird with met's logos on the side... these are actual cars mounted on trucks on track... in the background are billboards wit more logos, pictures of stadiums, and the two subway stops for the teams...
it is priced at $99 plus $9 shipping, but will not be ready for shipment until spring 2001...
( had they used the r-142's as a model it probably would not have been ready until spring 2009 )
although i have no desire to buy this, i was surprised to see the series being commemorated by 2 subway cars... perhaps this is a humble tribute to a couple of new yorkers who have labored for the city better than the greedy humans who own and play on the two teams...
LOL!
Back in the 1960's there was a proposal to eliminate the sharp turns at Crescent St on the Jamaica Line. This would be done by razing the Cypress Hills station. A new el structure would make a gradual turn after the Crescent St station, and cut diagonally across Campus Pl, Hemlock St, Ridgewood Ave, Autumn Ave, O'Brien Pl, Lincoln Ave, Etna St and Nichols Ave. The el would make a gradual turn into Jamaica Ave at its junction with Grant Ave and then align with the Elderts Lane stop.
If you know the neighborhood you know that an el cutting across country like that would have devastated those streets. Residents circulated petitions, and the fight to squash the proposal was led by the Cypress Hills Board of Trade and an assemblyman named Battista.
I had left Brooklyn before this time, but my relatives still lived there, and were very involved. They kept me informed of the situation.
Would all of these people who were fighting for their homes and neighborhood be considered NIMBYS by today's standards?
Back in the 1960's there was a proposal to eliminate the sharp turns at Crescent St on the Jamaica Line. This would be done by razing the Cypress Hills station. A new el structure would make a gradual turn after the Crescent St station, and cut diagonally across Campus Pl, Hemlock St, Ridgewood Ave, Autumn Ave, O'Brien Pl, Lincoln Ave, Etna St and Nichols Ave ... If you know the neighborhood you know that an el cutting across country like that would have devastated those streets. Residents circulated petitions, and the fight to squash the proposal was led by the Cypress Hills Board of Trade and an assemblyman named Battista ... Would all of these people who were fighting for their homes and neighborhood be considered NIMBYS by today's standards?
I would say no. At least to my way of thinking, a NIMBY - a perjorative term, after all - is someone who fights a public works project or other development out of what's basically an imaginary or at least exaggerated fear. A perfect example, going back some years, were the people in Glendale who fought the proposed subway takeover of the LIRR Lower Montauk line because it might have brought those people into the neighborhood (gasp!) Today NIMBY opposition is frequently motivated by fears of increased traffic, most of which probably aren't even warranted.
Opposing a project because it'll result in the loss of your own property is a different matter. It doesn't come off as narrowminded or selfish, unlike "true" NIMBYism. Actually, people whose properties have to be condemned for developments often don't complain too much, as government agencies tend to be very generous in paying compensation.
NIMBY would be a more reasonable term for those who would oppose eliminating a curve by building a new, quieter elevated structure straight down Jamaica Avenue, with compensation to property owners on that street.
There is frequently a tradeoff between neighborhood and broader community interests. In the past, local interests were often ignored. But current procedures give them so much weight, and broader community interests so little weight, that those with parochial concerns have no incentive to be reasonable. Localism and intolerance has been taken to an extreme as great as Robert Moses bulldozers.
Ok that proposal was a little too much! What about an express track alone going down jamaica from broadway connecting to the ununsed express track slot at cypress hills street? The single track wouldnt take that much out of the neighborhood throught that area, hello a big chunck of it is cementary. This would enable the J Z to have some kind of continuous express service from at least 110 all the way to marcy ave. With the arrival of all new trains for the so called automated L train they would have more trains for us neglected people on the J Z line?
This must've been the dumbest proposal I've ever heard of. The devestation this would've caused wouldn't justify a "NIMBY" label attached to those who opposed this.
Yeah. That's a pretty lousy proposal. But running the J-Z down Jamaica Ave from Broadway Junction on was and still is a good idea.
:)Andrew
It is too late now. a Public School was just built on the JAmaica Ave corner where the line would cut across. Now the students can hear the trains screech around the curve.
Actually the trains no longer screech as badly as they did in the past on this curve. Back in the 80's, the old tracks and rickety R16's and R27's made this curve an earsplitting nuisance for the neighborhood and a childish delight for this fellow subtalker.
I think you misunderstood the proposal. The school was built on the site of the old Cypress Hills Swimming Pool, which was located at Jamaica Ave and Hemlock St.
The proposal, if it had been successful would have the el reaching Jamaica Ave at Grant Ave, about four blocks east.
The councilman was Vito Batista,a rather unusual man who was always trying to preserve Highland Park.The curve at Livonia and 98th on the IRT where I grew was the loudest I ever heard and gave a pretty good light show with the Low V's.When we moved away it was hard to sleep for lack of noise!
My relatives thought a lot of Mr Batista, and felt that it was mainly his efforts that resulted in the proposal being dropped!
I know what you mean, it has been many years but I can still hear the Standards making the curve at Crescent and Fulton.
Those going should have recieved my E-mail with the time and location to meet for this Sunday's tour. I have had a few people cancel. If you are interested in going, Please E-mail me before Saturday. Please include your SubTalk handle and yur real name. And I'll get back to you with all the information. Thanks.
-Mark W.
I have recieved the email but I'm afraid I won't be able to get there in time. The earliest N21 is at 7:30am, and won't get to Flushing until 8:30am. Assuming I arrive ontime, I have to catch a 7 train (local all the way) from Flushing then get off at 5th ave for a transfer to the F, probably around 9:15am or so.
But the F wouldn't get to Ave X until just after 10am, and any delay in service would make me later.
I'd have to RUN to get there on time.
Then there's the sleepy OB line. There's a train at Sea Cliff at 7:15am, which would connect at Jamaica to a Flatbush train that would get me to Flatbush at 8:30am, which probably would get me there on time. But lately OB trains that I've been on run 15 to 20 minutes late due to equipment problems, which might make me miss my Flatbush connection.
But it's a 30 minute walk on poorly maintained sidewalks, and I'd have to leave here at 6:45am. And it's probably still gonna be dark out, and very cold (forecasts for 30s and 40s Sunday).
Although I very much wanted to go to this tour, I regret that due to my isolated location I will not be able to make it.
Perhaps just a suggestion though. I do think 10am on Sunday is a bit early, perhaps next time it would be more toward noon.
The sad thing is if I lived in Paramus I probably could make it, or just about anywhere else in Nassau county.
I'm sorry, I was looking forward to the tour, but Sundays are murder for someone stuck in Sea Cliff and rides MTA-Long Island Bus.
You can still make it if you REALLY want to go.
That 7:16 am departure out of Sea Cliff arrives at Jamaica at 7:56 am and at Flatbush at 8:29 am.
Lets say that your train runs 30 mins. late into Jamaica and arrives at 8:26 am. The next Flatbush train leaves Jamaica at 8:36 am and arrives at Flatbush at 8:57 am. If you can't get from Pacific St on the N/R to Avenue X on the F(via 9 St/4 Av) or to 86 St. on the N and walk 4 blocks....in 1 hour and 3 minutes then something is seriously wrong.
Perhaps I am over-worrying. If I take the train I should make it unless there is a catostrophic delay. Well I'll try to be there.
Thanks for the advice.
It contains 2 R10 subway cars in the old gray body/orange stripe paintjob. The paintjob is in awful condition, so I guess the train dates back to the mid 1960's. Were all the R10's repainted blue and white in 1965?
BTW, the shirt also says it's an officially licensed product by the MTA, so I hope all those other T-shirts floating around out there have permission to use the subway cars.
I doubt it's an officially licensed MTA product, otherwise it would be offered at the Transit Museum gift shops.
BMTman
It does have the MTA logo and it does say, and I quote, "officially licensced".
BTW, I bought it at BJ's wholesale shoppers club in Whitestone yesterday.
Yep, and there's also a variant of this shirt, with one R-10 on it, also "officially licensed" by the MTA.
--Mark
[so I hope all those other T-shirts floating around out there have permission to use the subway cars. ]
I don't think that MU likeness is MTA property.
Arti
Maybe, but using official subway car pictures in a for-profit business venture requires MTA approval, and probably a fee for use.
Actually, I DO believe that Major League Baseball went in with the MTA in trademarking the phrase "Subway Series" believe it or not, so MLB could use the 'official' MTA graphics in promoting this whole thing....And THEN went shopping for a sponsor....
The shirt I have has the official MTA "going your way" logo, probably ecause of the use of the 2 old R10 pics on it.
I picked up that shirt as well at the Mets Clubhouse Shop. Funny they would use R-10s since one would not associate them with a Subway Series.
Think that's something? Last week, somebody on the street had a subway series T-shirt consisting of two BMT Standards (!!!), with (4) and (7) balls on the side of the bulkhead opposite the motorman's window! Perhaps I should have bought it as a collector's item.
Bob Sklar
Well, the BMT standards served Ebbets Field, or rather, Prospect Park, so there's some validity there. With the R-10s, you would have gotten to within 10 blocks of the Polo Grounds, assuming they ran exclusively on the A then.
The only Subway Series T-shirts I'll buy have Red Birds, R-62 or R-142s on them. That doesn't dimish my love for the Standards and other old equip., but they aren't part of the Subway Series period.
BTW, my daughter has a R-9 on her sweat, but she doen't know any better ;-)
Mr t
Hey, that's a good choice.:-)
The shirt I have has the official MTA "going your way" logo, probably because of the use of the 2 old R10 pics on it.
Yes, all of the R-10s were repainted in teal and white, with a racing stripe at the belt rail, in the mid-60s. I remember that scheme very well; in fact, it's my all-time favorite R-10 paint job. Thundering past 81st St. with that racing stripe, they looked, well, racy. In 1968-69 or thereabouts, the R-10s were redone in a half-and-half teal and white scheme which essentially filled in the white area between the two teal bands.
They have some World Series shirts in stores here (California). I wanted to get one but I'm still bummed out about how the Series turned out. Despite the 4-1 romp of the Yankees, do you realize just how close this series really was. A clutch hit, good defensive play, a right pitch here and there and it could have been different. This is where experience comes in, and the Yankees had it is spades. The talent was similar but the Yankees had the better TEAM. They are a real TEAM and so you cannot begrudge them no matter how much you dislike them. If we can re-sign Hampton and bring A-Rod on board maybe next year it will be different.
The Mets need to take the approach the '69 Orioles took. As Davey Johnson remembers, everyone on that team made a silent vow: OK, so we got beat. Let's come back next year and win it all.
This just off the Mets' website: GM Steve Phillips and Bobby Valentine have both signed new three-year contracts with an option for a fourth year. Good moves!
Great moves Steve. What is needed forthe Mets is continuity. That would have been lost if Valentine had been allowed to walk. Now we have to get Hampton signed and try to get A-Rod over to Shea. I'd say we would then be in good shape for next year.
You mean the Yanks had the best 25 individuals that money can buy. That's considered a team but I don't think that it means team spirit, though. It seems to me that the Mets had plenty of that. Hopefully, they will win it all next year.
That's what the Yankees were known as in the late 70s - the best team that money can buy, Reggie Jackson et al.
Penny has already marked down it's Subway Series & Yankee T-shirts, Modell's has marked down some too ... and no more lines.
Get them before they go back up again in price, i.e. E-bay
Mr t__:^)
Mt T, WHat does the Penny's shirt look like? Does it have a train of some type on it?
Joe C.
Some are the same as you'll find at Modell's. They have a lot of Yankee only (with trophy, with players name on the back, etc.). They also have some with trains ... one has what appears to be two Red Birds, but they aren't red and no route numbers are visable (nice T-shirt for those that don't know any better, i.e. it has all the right words & is attractive). At Green Acers you can visit both stores.
BTW, I got a "Subway Series" hat at Modell's ... just like the posters, but there weren't many left ... maybe behind the counter now.
Mr t__:^)
I have been trying to get anything that says "Pledge Your Allegiance" with the team logos and the 4 & 7 symbols. To my frustration, all of the places I have checked on the web are out of them (e.g. pennants, posters, bumper stickers, etc). Any suggestions! And, yes, they are showing up in E-Bay!
Fortunately, I got my shirts from Mo's via their web site.
Jose
I checked Penny's on Saturday. They did have T's and sweats. Both of which I bought for the collection. Great, just what I needed to start collecting. As if I don't already collect enough "s--t"! Looked in K- mart and a few others too. Upon closer inspection, the shirt with two R10's is actually car 1575! The second car of the train is an R 1-9, which only 1575 could operate with. The imagination of these graphics people on these T's is mind boggling. Thankfully I already had this shirt.
Surprisingly SUBWAY'S, the sandwhich people, attempted to jump in on the subway series craze, but the shirts were limited, to say the least. I got one on 8th ave and 21st street, NYC. Many stores never got the shirt. And not one mention on it about Subway sandwhiches. The graphics were goofy too, but worth having.
Joe C.
I'm still waiting for Subway to come out with IND and IRT sandwiches to go with their BMT.:-)
RIGHT ON!
JOE C.
If they were IRT they'd be smaller and if they were IND they would be lacking originality. No wonder they only have BMT sandwiches.
OK, then, how about an "A train" sandwich?:-)
Okay Q-Brightliner, tell me, how do I get a Subway Series T-shirt at a
discount?
If Subway offered an "IRT" sandwich, it would be shorter and narrower; there would be streaks of barbeque sauce running down the sides (to simulate rust); and there would be three slices of meat instead of four (aka, doors).
Imagine some other Individual Rolling Stock Sandwiches:
...R-10 Sandwich: sandwich on old-fashioned style roll that you eat fast and makes you burp really LOUD
...R-30: Good sandwich that was thrown out prematurely, thought to be stale
...R-32: Delicious, old reliable sandwich on braided challah (to simulate the corrugations)
...R-40 & R-42: Nice to look at but stale and inconsistent; on some of them, the bread is sliced on a strange angle
...R-44: A real turkey sandwich; really long bread, decaying ingredients, or ingredients that are missing completely.
...R-46: Looks just like the R-44 but tastes much better
...R-68: Bland, colorless sandwich, on R-44 bread, that takes forever to eat
...R-142: They sold a few sandwiches, but when we try to order one, they tell us there's a delay getting the ingredients...maybe they'll fill our order next year. Comes with either Candian Bacon or Beef Teriyaki.
...R-143: Coming soon. Nobody knows what it looks like yet.
LOLROTFLMAO...oops! WMP.
Of course, the R-10 sandwich would be wrapped in teal-and-white paper with a racing stripe to boot.
The R-46 would have fresh ingredients.
The R-30 description matches that of the Triplex, if such a sandwich were to be offered.
If an IND sandwich were to be offered, they'd have to wrap it in paper which included a color tile band.
How about this:
Standard or AB (since Subway already has a BMT): features hard-as-concrete bread; so tough it's impossible to bite into without breaking a tooth.
Or...some other variants of the "BMT" sandwich:
1) A Multi-Section Sandwich: 5 link sausages, still tied together, on 5 small rolls
2) Bluebird Sandwich: Same as Multi-Section Sandwich, but with 3 links and 3 rolls, with added blue cheese
3) Tri-Plex Sandwich: 3 Whole salamis tied together, in 3 entire loaves of bread
4) R-16 Sandwich: Moldy sandwich that someone forgot about, kept in cupboard for years, put on display occasionally, finally thown out
5) Q-Car: Popular sandwich, served on a brittle cracker
6) C-Car: Like a Q-Car sandwich, on a cracker; Tastes OK, but looks really gross
Another SubTalker has contracted HPS ... LOL (I enjoyed it)
Mr t__:^)
I wouldn't call it true, full-fledged HPS; he's still using his shift key.
[I wouldn't call it true, full-fledged HPS; he's still using his shift key.]
Correct, but it was creative, entertaining, and on-tipic just the same.
Mr t__:^)
You should have seen the menu that was put together a year or so ago which included subway routes as well as car contract numbers. I'm sure it's in the archives. It was a real knee slapper.
Still ROTFLMAO!!
You need to add round holes to the R-16 sandwich, either to the bread or perhaps some Swiss cheese, for the porthole storm door windows, and perhaps burn the bread, a nod to the controller problems that plagued those cars.
Then there's:
Hi-V: includes a pair of electrodes tied to a high-energy capacitor. When you take a bite, you get the shock of your life!
R-11 or Million Dollar Sandwich: everything - bread, meat, condiments, etc. - has been sterilized first.
I wonder what a Green Hornet or Zephyr sandwich would look like.:-)
Green Hornet Sandwich: Like the Multi Sandwich, but wrapped in Green Aluminum foil. One sandwich was prepared, then they never made it again.
Little Zephyr Sandwich: Also like the Multi Sandwich, but nobody remembers the receipe. Also never made another one. Only sold at a Subway outlet near Franklin Avenue.
Man, my ribs are hurting!:-)
The real question is: did someone actually eat that Green Hornet sandwich, or was it perhaps freeze-dried and preserved?
The same could be asked about the Zephyr sandwich.
Yesterday Penney's T-shirts were gone & Mo's group was moved to the back of the store (not too much of a selection left).
Mr t__:^)
Where would be the best place to try for one when I come over on the 11th ?
Simon
Swindon UK
You can still go to Modell's. Even some of the street vendors might have some left.
BMTman
They are still the best team money can buy. I admired teams that succeeded because of good farm systems and training. The Orioles of the '60s and '70s were perhaps the prime example. But it seems that all major sports have gone to money. What kind of feeling does a free-agent player have for New York (or any place else)? After all, he's playing for the team for a couple of years and moves on to somewhere else. Interesting, though, it seems that fan loyalty has not diminished.
While free agency is something a lot of old time players applaud, IMHO it's swung way too far the other way. Many of today's players aren't worth anywhere near the money they're being paid. That's the main reason I've never been to Coors Field in Denver. I'll go see the Mets at Shea if I happen to be in town, but the 1994 strike left a bad taste in my mouth which is still there.
The subway system opened today, in 1904. Here's the link for the original New York Times article:
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/1027.html#article
No...It opened today. October 27, 1904
Attaway Mark, keep them honest. October 27 was the day it opened. It is my favorite day of the year for obvious reasons.
10/28/2000
[Attaway Mark, keep them honest. October 27 was the day it opened. It is my favorite day of the year for obvious reasons.]
Fred,
My sources tell me for your birthday, they took the D-Types out for spin. I hear there was a banner on the front saying "Happy Birthday Sea Beach Fred", they were supposed to make the run up the Sea Beach but decided that the Brighton Express would be more exciting !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Bill, that would have been a great idea if it had been true. Tell you what. You arrange such a spin on my 61st next year, and I will be intown for the occasion and will allow the banner to be put on your Brighton for a spin to Coney. The lunch at Nathan's and the rides on the Cyclone are on me. After that, a trip to Shea Stadium to see the Mets in the World Series. We dutch treat on that one. How does that sound. BTW, all others are invited, too. Come to think of it, that sounds like one heck of a plan.
10/28/2000
Sounds good to me, just make sure you invite Brighton Exp.Bob and BMT man too. Of course, you're paying !! By this time next year, we should have a very large hungry group of SubTalkers. Just remember to pay cash, because Nathan's doesn't accept American Express !!
Bill "Newkirk"
It's aa deal! Except for the World Series, that is. Nathan's, the Cyclone, and the train rides, on me. We'd make one hell of a foursome, wouldn't we? You can bet people would be giving us a lot of room as we strut our strut. Gosh, I really wish we could do it. You know Bob is planning to move back east very soon, so the three of you are already in the general neighborhood. I may retire next June so I will have thefree time. A vacation with some of my railfan colleagues. That would be a treat.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
As of yesterday New York has had 96 years of almost uniterrupted subway service. I wonder what it must have been like to have ridden the subway when it was brand new. It apparently was a novelty at the time. The subway shanged New York forever. New York wouldn't have become what it is today without the subways.
BMTJeff
Jeff: I owe you a call. I'll try to keep in touch. Been real busy, but that's no excuse. Actually I'm still mourning the demise of my Mets in the Series. What a bummer that was.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I was hoping that the Mets would win the series for a change but the Yankees were too strong for them.
BMTJeff
One of the TV stations even mentioned it on Friday morning during their "on this date" segment. They showed the clip of dignitaries entering the kiosk in City Hall Park.
Or, see
Day One
-Dave
Just found a typo !!
Don't try to tide in the tunnel between 2:30 and 6:00 today unless you have a special pass. Five-cent tickets will be sold after 7:00
Yes, and very big HAPPY BIRTHDAY greeting to SUBWAYSURF!
Have a couple of brews on me, Andee!
BMTman
Thank You, I will.
Peace,
ANDEE
10/27/2000
Wait a minute !......Bill Newkirk is putting on his thinking cap. the one with the 100 watt bulb on top.
OCTOBER 27,2004..... THE SUBWAY CENTENNIAL !!!
Fares that day could be 5 cents to commemmerate the centennial.
Can this be done or will deducting 5 cents from your Metrocard throw things for a loop ! (And I'm not talking Nassau loop either !)
Bill "Newkirk"
Happy Birthday IRT !!
There are two questions here:
1- Can it be done- Yes! I remember in 1994 or 1995 when MetroCard qwas new they charged $1 on weekends if you used MetroCard and $1.25 for token users. I also remember when the escalators at 51/Lex where changed they allowed a walking transfer to the IRT.
2- Will they do it-- that is the real question. I have no information on the plans for the centennial celebration but based on the reneactment of the IRT groundbreaking all I expect to see might be a symbolic reenactment train and possible nostalgia trains on the Shuttle.
I also expect that even if the fare is reduced for one day I expect people to gripe if they add money to their card and it is used on another day and it takes off the full $1.50. I also see problems with unlimited cards-- "Why do I have to pay $4 if the person with a regular card pays 5 cents?" or "Why do the token people get to pay 5 cents when I have to pay $4 to ride all day. While a 5 cent fare might be nice it would be a headache unless adjustments are made for fun pass and unlimited users.
10/28/2000
They could sell a special commemerative "Centennial" Metrocard for 10 cents for one day, good only on Oct.27th. (10 cents for one round trip)
Bill "Newkirk"
I just realized something. Yesterday 2 passengers were still in my car of the #6 train as it left BB southbound, so I decided to stay on. We arrived at BB northbound at 14:50. Close, huh? I had completely forgotten.
Spent some time browsing the November 13 LIRR schedules on-line this evening. Not many interesting changes (some time adjustments here and there, but no major changes in frequency). I made the following notes:
No new dual modes -- still just 4 inbound in the AM and 4 outbound in the PM. No weekend dual mode service.
The West Hempstead branch goes back to shuttle service between Valley Stream and West Hempstead on weekends. Currently weekend trains go Jamaica to West Hempstead, stopping at St. Albans along the way. St. Albans will now be covered by Babylon trains every two hours during the weekend. The connection at Valley Stream will be with Far Rockaway to Flatbush trains -- so the hardy souls going from West Hempstead to Penn will have a 52 minute, 3 train journey.
A slight adjustment late night to decrease a one hour gap (from 11PM to midnight) leaving Penn to 45 minutes on the Huntington and Long Beach lines.
On the Oyster Bay, a slight shift in weekend evening service -- eastbound trains now leave Jamaica at 38 minutes past 6, 7, 9 and 11. Currently it's 6, 8, 10 and 11.
Track work is completed on the Montauk branch. Babylon express trains make their comeback.
An LIRR schedule trivia question for those who are intrigued by such things --
Name the three stations in LIRR electrified territory (excluding the Port Washington Branch) which do not have a one-seat ride to Flatbush Avenue.
Chuck
Stations? On the new schedule? I would guess Forest Hills, Kew Gardens and St.Albans.
Sorry, I should have also excluded Kew Gardens, Forest Hills and Woodside. St. Albans is not one of the three.
2 are in Nassau, 1 is in Suffolk.
Chuck
East Williston, Pinelawn and Belmont Park
Well, between Bob Anderson and MisterK, the answers have been uncovered. The three I was thinking of are Carle Place, Pinelawn and East Williston. Bob also added Belmont Park -- which is also correct, though I wasn't thinking of it as a true LIRR station. (Actually, that sounds like I knew what I was doing -- in reality it never occurred to me at all).
Chuck
There is a 4:53 AM From Flatbush Ave. to Carle Place weekdays.
"There is a 4:53 AM From Flatbush Ave. to Carle Place weekdays."
I was only considering westbound service (to Flatbush Ave). Should have made that more clear. I wonder if anyone actually takes the 4:53AM from Flatbush to Carle Place.
Moreover, I've always wondered what it is about Carle Place that warrants such infrequent service.
Chuck
I don't know either. Here's a picture of the station.
Moreover, I've always wondered what it is about Carle Place that warrants such infrequent service.
Proximity to the much busier Mineola station, I'd say. Also note that Carle Place doesn't seem to have much parking and there is no real town center around the station.
On the other hand, Carle Place is not far from the Roosevelt Field Mall, though it's a bit beyond walking distance and the roads around the mall certainly aren't pedestrian friendly. A van or bus shuttle might to very well and even might get the LIRR to increase service to Carle Place. I'd imagine that neighborhood opposition would be fierce, unfortunately.
[A van or bus shuttle might to very well and even might get the LIRR to increase service to Carle Place. I'd imagine that neighborhood opposition would be fierce, unfortunately.]
As would the proposed Nassau Hub light rail line which would connect with the LIRR using either the Central extension (Garden City secondary) and/or the old Mineola to West Hempstead ROW
I've never seen the station (other than Bob's picture), but you may be onto something with the lack of parking. It is kind of far from Mineola, though.
Still, the gaps in service are not like you see at any other LIRR station -- especially not a main line station. Eastbound, a 97 minute gap between 7:54 and 9:31 PM. Westbound, a mammouth 3.5 hour gap between 6:55 PM and 10:25 PM.
The Carle Place station is significantly closer to Westbury than to Mineola. In fact, it's so close to Westbury you'd think the LIRR Main Line was a subway. So that's part of the reason they don't use it much, I guess.
For what it's worth, Carle Place is actually a pretty nice station. It reminds me of many Metro-North stations, with its crossover and refurbrished look.
:)Andrew
I'm not sure if we've covered this topic before, but I wonder which stations are closest together on the LIRR. A cursory look at the online timetable shows that Carle Place is 22.2 miles from Penn while Westbury is 23.2. Closer together than that are Bellerose at 16.1 and Floral Park at 16.7. Sea Cliff, Glen St. and Glen Cove are also .6 miles apart from each other. Are there any closer?
By the way, a 12 car train of M-1/3's is 1020 feet long which is almost .2 miles so these stations are about 3 train lenghts apart.
I'm not sure if we've covered this topic before, but I wonder which stations are closest together on the LIRR. A cursory look at the online timetable shows that Carle Place is 22.2 miles from Penn while Westbury is 23.2. Closer together than that are Bellerose at 16.1 and Floral Park at 16.7. Sea Cliff, Glen St. and Glen Cove are also .6 miles apart from each other. Are there any closer?
According to the timetable, Massapequa is 30.5 miles from Penn while Massapequa Park is 30.8. I knew they were close, but that still surprises me.
Looking at my Hagstrom's, it's clear that the Massapequas are more than 0.3 apart.
From the online schedules, there's Centre Avenue (20.4), East Rockaway (20.9) and Oceanside (21.4) which are all 0.5 miles apart. The map appears to confirm this.
There's also Lawrence (22.0), Inwood (22.4) and Far Rockaway (23.0). But on my trusty Hagstrom's the distance from Lawrence to Far Rockaway appears to be more than one mile.
I don't have my 5-boro map handy, but the timetables list Kew Gardens and Forest Hills as being 0.3 miles apart.
Chuck
10/28/2000
I read that Massapequa was the first station and Massapequa Park was added on in the 1930's for a new housing community. I've never seen a photo of a station building for Massapequa Park. So I wonder if M-Park had a station building. M-Park on the even looked like an add-on with a non island like platform Massapequa has.
Bill "Newkirk"
Looking at my Hagstrom's, it's clear that the Massapequas are more than 0.3 apart.
That's possible - I certainly don't have enough trust in the LIRR to swear to the accuracy of their online station information :-)
Whatever the actual distance, it's obvious that Massapequa and Massapequa Park are very close. People standing on one platform are clearly visible from the other.
What about Garden City and County Life Press?
Those,t oo, are .6 mile apart -- MP 18.4 and 19.0 respectively.
The timetable must have something wrong there.
According to a 1967 LIRR Employees' Timetable, Massapequa was MP 28.7 and Massapequa Park was MP 29.5 -- making them .8 mile apart.
Note that LIRR mileposts are measured from Long Island City. The schedules usually show distance from Penn Station.
In addtion to those stations Bob mentions, back in a 1967 LIRR Employees' Timetable, I also found that Bellaire and Queens Village were .6 miles apart (MP 12.6 and 1.32 respectively), and also Douglaston and Little Neck shared that spacing -- MP 12.1 and 12.7 respectively.
How about Flushing Main Street and Murray Hill on the Port Washington Line? How about ALL stations within city limits on the Port Washington Line?
This is one of my pet peeves about mass transit in general. Too many stops with too few patrons too close together for any real distance to be covered conveniently. The LIRR is less of an offender than the subway, which stops at every...single...scheduled...stop all the time, but being on a purely local LIRR train to the east end, such as Port Jefferson or Patchogue is no picnic. I've done it too many times.
Just for information....here's the distances on the LIRR PW line:
(Geez,until I checked the LIRR Employee TT, I never realized they WERE so close. Never rode the PW line myself. Looks like they'd do better converting it to light rail.....
Woodside MP 3.1
(1.6 miles)
Elmhurst MP 4.7
(2.0 miles)
Shea Stadium MP 6.7
(0.8 miles)
Flushing MP 7.5
(0.9 miles)
Murray Hill MP 8.4
(0.8 miles)
Broadway MP 9.2
(0.7 miles)
Auburndale MP 9.9
(0.9 miles)
Bayside MP 10.8
(1.3 miles)
Douglaston MP 12.1
(0.6 miles)
Little Neck MP 12.7
(1.2 miles)
Great Neck MP 13.9
(1.5 miles)
Manhasset MP 15.4
(1.1 miles)
Plandome MP 16.5
(1.5 miles)
Port Washington MP 18.1
I've ridden the PW line and the stations are awfully close to each other. What they should do is convert it to a Washington Metro-type of service and run it through the upper level of the 63rd St Tunnel and down the Broadway Express tracks in Manhattan. People who use the PW line would then have one-seat access to many areas of midtown and lower Manhattan. Plus people would welcome an alternative to the overcrowded E, F and 7 trains.
The three stations are Kew Gardens, Forest Hills and Woodside. All others have provisions for one-seat rides to Flatbush Avenue at some time or another, but not necessarily constantly.
There is also a fourth station. Penn Station.
Since you're talking about Nassau and Suffolk (And thus excluding stations between Penn and Jamaica)...
East Williston (its only electric train, if I remember right, goes to Penn)
and I'll guess:
Carle Place
Cold Spring Harbor
(both have relatively limited service)
The title is alittle misleading. I went to the Willets Point station to view the happennings over at Shea (there's a great view of things from the front portion of the Manhattan-bound platform).
As it turned out, at about 7:25 pm when I arrived at Grand Central, I had just missed the "Shea Stadium Specia" (Redbird w/Mets wrap). That was disappointing to an extent.
Anyhow, just thought I'd report that the Police presence on the line was only evident at Willets Point, Grand Central and Times Square stations.
On my trip home to Canarsie, I took the 7 to 74th Street for the connection with the E to Jamaica. I took the E to Sutphin Blvd. and got the J. Rode that to Eastern Parkway (soon to become B'way Junction -- more on that later) to connect with my trusty L. I got back to Canaries at about 10:30. Travel time was about an hour from Shea. That's not too back considering the 3-train trip and that most of it was on off-peak schedules.
BTW, there was no Salaam Sighting on my rides.
BMTman
>>>BTW, there was no Salaam Sighting on my rides. <<<
Lucky you.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee, I was planning on sending up a couple of flares if I had a sighting.
Actually, much like Elvis sightings, Salaam sightings would best be covered by the National Enquirer.
BMTman
Hope you didn't "catch any fevor" while you were on the #7 line :-)
Mr t__:^)
10/28/2000
[Rode that to Eastern Parkway (soon to become B'way Junction -- more on that later)
The TA is changing the name Eastern Parkway to Broadway Junction ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Wasn't the station on the 14th St Line called Broadway Junction?
The station on the Jamaica Line was Eastern Parkway.
The station on the IND was East New York!
At least that is the way that I remember it.
It still is that way. If they're gonna change Eastern PArkway, it's probably because the Eastern Parkway exit has been closed for almost 20 years.
Yes, Bill.
From what I've learned, after the reconstruction of the structure at B'way Junction, the NYCT will officially rename the entire complex of stations there Broadway Junction. This is to help with avoiding confusion for the customers.
It kind of makes sense -- look at 14th Street-Union Squre or Grand Central. The East New York/Eastern Pkwy/Broadway complex is no less of an important junction in the transit system.
This is one instance where the idea was long overdue.
(I personally have always referred to the entire area there as B'way Junction. For reference purposes: the area used to be called "Manhattan Junction" up till the 1920's before the LIRR was made into a subway line).
BMTman
They're done! Luis Sojo drove in two runs in the ninth inning to put the Mets out of their misery!
haha yanks rule!!!
suck suck suck suck suck suck
Seriously, the Yankees deserve congratulations. Their fans still are the worst in baseball.
No, the worse fans are LA Dodger Fans, they come in the 3rd inning and leave in the 7th, listen to the radio, so Vin Scully can explain to them what is going on.
I hate to admit it Bob but you are absolutely right. The LA fans are the dumbest and most unknowledgeable fans in the world. They come to be seen, to eat, and to make the grand exit. Pathetic, and this is after over 40 years of Major League Baseball. New York fans would never allow the Mets or Yankees to put such a routine attitude on winning as the Dodgers do. They know that win or lose the dumb and stupid LA fans will continue to pack the ballpark. I rate California number 1, but not when it comes to baseball fans.
Cubs fans are pretty bad too..I was at wrigley, and the whole attitude is; "well..its a nice ballpark...." like that has anything to do with it! As long as Sammy hits one,theyre happy- I feel SO sorry for Joe Gerardi!
Lou; Great observation. Absolutely true, but you have to remember there have been over two complete generations that have never seen a winner in Chicago. Losing has become acceptable because that is all they know. The park is very nice, a great place to watch a game, partake in nice conversation with fans, and, for some reason, the place is loaded with attractive women. But for good baseball, that is something they don't know or care about because they have never had it in their lifetimes.
I wonder why Baseball ratings are at their lowest level ever. Personally I was hoping for a sweep because it might have encouraged more acts or terrorism. The good news is THE SIMPSONS WILL BE ON AGAIN!
The ratings were low, because Fox Network has losey announcers, who are quite boreing. What ever happend to the good old days, when the teams playing in the Series, had the guys who broadcast the teams playing. I am not a Dodger fan but since Fox owns the Dodgers, They could have brought in Vince Scully to do the games, after all these years. He is one of the best
No Bob, Vin Scully IS the best.
Now now folks. That'll do. The Mets are still league champions. Noone can take that away. And all five games were close. We Queens residents have every reason to be proud of them too. :)
I rode the 7 today (I usually take the F) and got a look at Shea. Kind of a poetic "day after" scene. Kind of an overcast, drizzly day and a deserted stadium.
I really do love the 7.
:)Andrew
You will love the #7 even more next season when you ride to the stadium to see A Rod in Mets Blue and Orange taking on the Red Sox in the World Series while Jeter and the boys begin to nurse their aged wounds and try to rebuild which should take another 11 or 12 years.
Jeter is only 26, A-rod will play 2nd for the Yankees or 3rd. Arod and Jeter as roommates sounds fun. The Red Sox and the Mets, no way. If not the Yanks, it will be the Chisox, and I doubt it will be the Mets. When was the last time a National League Team played back to back series, I do not even think it was the Braves, but I may be wrong
As usual in these things you are WRONG!!!!. The Braves in 1991 and 1992, and 1995 and 1996.
By the time the Mutts see another World Series sometime in the 23rd Century,you'll be able to go to that sewer in Flushing via the type of transporter used on Star Trek. As far as A-Rod playing for the Mutts, keep dreaming. He's probably still trying to wash the stench off his body from having to spend 4 hours in that dump watching those losers play. Enjoy the parade on Monday!
DHF60: Of course Yankee Stadium is the garden spot of America right? Come on. The place is already falling apart and Steinbrenner wants out of the Bronx. Maybe the rats are getting too close. Yes, I read about the rat problem that engulfing many of the neighborhoods up there. Maybe they are getting to close to Yankee Stadium, though I always felt that rats and Steinbrenner were synonomous/ You enjoy the parade. I will wait until next year.
Yup. Exhibit A in the case for Yankee fans being the worst in baseball. Pure scum.
Maybe if you Mutts fans,who have to be the biggest whiners and crybabies in creation,would just shut up and accept the fact that your sorry team lost then maybe you wouldn't have to read scathing remarks about them.As far as being pure scum, I'd rather be pure scum than a whining pathetic loser!
Who is whining? Not I. The Mets lost to the Yankees. Yankee fans had nothing to do with it, yet they act like they did.
By far, the worst fans in baseball.....by a mile.
>>>...fans had nothing to do with it, yet they act like they did.<<<
IMO, ALL sports fans act like this. "We" did this and "we" did that, it's sickening. When all "WE" did was sit in front of the TV, stuffing their faces and drinking beer.
Peace,
ANDEE
RED SOX?? Are you INSANE?? Not when the Yankees pick up A-Rod and Mussina {rodriguez and Jeter on the same team?? holy moley....} And you Metsie fans are gonna have a LONGG winter Im afraid......Youre going to lose EVERY pitcher except Leiter maybe..Your GM AND manager are both Free Agents..etc,etc,etc...
Lou: Be real. A-Rod is a shortstop and he wouldn't stoop so low to play another position when he's as good as there is there. No sir, he is going to the Mets because he's the last missing piece. Your guys are getting old and will have to retool. The Yankee dynasty is going to be a thing of the past.
The Mets put up a better fight than did the Braves of 99 or the Padres of 98 (lol).
Ahhh, and if Todd Zeile's fly ball was just one inch higher in game 1 ....
I guess it's wait till next year. Now, I'm truly my father's son (Brklyn Dodger fan).
They're done! Luis Sojo drove in two runs in the ninth inning to put the Mets out of their misery!
If this was the subway series, by game two, the Mets would be calling 12-8 on the mound (what else would you call a broken bat but a weapon?). By the start of game five, the Yankees would be calling 12-9...
CH.
uh..whats 12-9??
uh..whats 12-9
Passenger under train.
See the radio codes page.
CH
12-9 means passenger under train. It also means pee in a bottle, three days off(fatality only), and a visit to the TA doctor for a full physical.
>>>...three days off(fatality only), <<<
Do you mean to say that if you hit and kill a person that jumps in front of a train you get 3 days off with out pay . That sucks!
Peace,
ANDEE
No, you get full pay for the 3 days.
And get additional punishment by having to stand on a platform for as long as it takes for the investigation to be completed.
The Mets could have used the following codes in their series:
12-2: Bobby Valentine thinking
12-3: The Mets clubhouse during the water main break
12-5: Armondo Benitez
12-6: The season
12-7: Call to the bullpen
12-10: Fan interference
12-11: Used to describe the field after the 1986 W.S.
12-12: Roger Clemens
I recently received a flier in the mail for a special limited edition miniature model of Paul Kronenberg posing at the controls of his R-9 cab.
Sculpted with precision detailing, the model will feature a miniature walkman radio and headset to add to the figure of Paul to capture him in his "taping subway car sounds" mode. Also, a math tutoring kit is included with every purchase.
The cab is a miniature mirror image of the origin in Paul's apartment. Endgate, brass window trim, brake handle, controler -- it's all there in exquisite detail.
I believe there was a mention that if you were to order the model before Dec. 31 2000, an audio tape of R-9 compressor and brake sounds would be included free of charge....
Thought this would be of interest...
BMTman
If it is a mirror image, does that mean the brake handle is
in the correct position?
I recently received a flier in the mail for a special limited edition miniature model of Paul Kronenberg posing at the controls of his R-9 cab.
Sculpted with precision detailing, the model will feature a miniature walkman radio and headset to add to the figure of Paul to capture him in his "taping subway car sounds" mode. Also, a math tutoring kit is included with every purchase.
The cab is a miniature mirror image of the original in Paul's apartment. Endgate, brass window trim, brake handle, controler -- it's all there in exquisite detail.
I believe there was a mention that if you were to order the model before Dec. 31 2000, an audio tape of R-9 compressor and brake sounds would be included free of charge....
Thought this would be of interest...
BMTman
Wrapped trains to stay.
THE HYPE HAS JUST BEGUN
Peace,
ANDEE
Part of the reason is selfish by the MTA, i.e. if they rip off the wrap they will have to re-apply decals, paint, etc. that will be stuck to the back of the wrap when it comes off ... that's why at my BUS depot we always re-wrap the same bus ... KISS.
Mr t__:^)
If the new Subway Series Metrocard was really to bring back memories each swipe would only deduct 15 cents.
10/28/2000
The #4 Yankee special was R-142's which will be assigned to the #2 line.
Conway says the consists will be in service for several months. But the R-142's are still OOS until modifications are complete. Are the "wrap" R-142's to be in service on the #2 or #4 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
She's still hiding up at the East, though her Kawasaki cousins are out playing on the Lex express almost daily, 5 or 10 car trains, sometimes sim stops, sometimes just passin' thru. 7221-7230 were out'n about yesterday, and I think I may have seen a set in the 50s or 60s today, but I'm not sure of the numbers.
All cars were in the Unionport Yard today (at 4pm). Two were in the 180th Barn and One was on the 180th Layup Track! 7211-7220 are in Westchester Yard.
Trevor Logan
Exxxxxxxxcelllllent............
When will these trains start running?
when an operator gets in the cab and starts driving one
Quote from the Daily News article:
"The Yankee express is one of the TA's $13 million trains. The Mets train is a Redbird, built around 1962."
It looks like the TA correctly matched the trains to the teams in more ways than just which line they were on.
Tom
Nice one. But I thought the Yankees paid their AAA players a lot more than $13 million these days.
first i must say i am sorry to hear of the seriousness of one of the motorman's injuries...
sometimes in a minor car accident, one of the motorists claims damage for scratches or dents that happened before the accident... that got me thinking that perhaps the buckling occurred before the accident... perhaps during rush hour it buckled as a result of an extra heavy passenger load, but went unnoticed... then after the accident, the condition of the car was incorrectly attributed to the collision...
i do hope the seriously injured motorman fully recovers...
For those interested:
CELEBRITIES RIDE THE 7
Peace,
ANDEE
Last Friday while at the TCA York Train Meet, I spoke to Mike Wolf, owner of MTH about the R-32 cars. On the matter of radius, He believes the shortest radius will be 042 due to the sides of the model. I also asked about the N signs on the front and sides of the models, and he stated that it would be hard to make any changes. MTH will not make other route signs for this set. There will be add-on cars.There was no display of the R-32 set.I also asked another MTH person about the R-21 cars and he said they should be out by the end of the year.MTH is also making available to its dealers a part box which will include various types of couplers. On the subject of couplers,I have put non operating couplers on the front end of my R-42 cars and now the cars have the same spacing between them.No problem running on a small radius.
Have Fun
Ron J.
The Yankees are champions again. No more painting subway trains until next year. I'm assuming there will be a subway world series next year.
[I'm assuming there will be a subway world series next year.]
You never know. That Bernie Williams catch in the 9th against Piazza was at midnight on the 96th anniversary of the IRT, which was on 27 October 1904.
Nice little rendition of John Sterling's call. I had the TV on the game muted and was listening to the game on the radio.
About Game Two, Sterling was actually getting to sound like he only HAD about two or three Theeeeeeeeeee Yankeees Win"s left in him....
I do the same thing. I find Sterling and Kay more pleasant to listen to than the guys on the TV who cover maybe 3 games a year, and who know only what's given to them about the Yankees. This year, though, when he pronounced the word win, at the end of Yankees win, theeeeeeeee Yankees Wiiiiiiiinnnn was different than last year's. He sort of chnages sounds when saying it.
BTW. I think Benny Agbayani forgot that he played for the Mets not the Yankees when he predicted that the Mets would win in 5.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
another useless posting.
REALLY, if my postings are so useless, then don't read them anymore.
No on to football, maybe a super bowl in a couple years GIANTS-JETS
the yankees win. whats new?
They had to win that last game at Shea Stadium. The pin stripes had already been packed away for next year.
Tom
I got notice of a GO on the 2 line that has no 2 train service between the Bronx and Manhattan, with trains running between 149-Concourse and 241 Street, and 148 Street-Lenox Terminal and Flatbush Avenue. Does this mean that the Manhattan-Brooklyn section of the 2 line will use the R62A cars of the 3 line?
(The 3 doesn't run during the hours this GO is in effect.)
Even with the GO, there are no car assignment changes, as R-33 mainline cars take a simple detour from Flatbush and head to 148th St, instead of 241 St. R-62As rest peacefully at Lenox and Livonia Yards over night.
-Stef
I boarded my ususal L train this morning and just before the Conductor closed the doors he made this announcemnent: "Ladies and gentlemen you should be aware that their will be a funeral fora ll Mets fans this afternoon at Shea Stadium, 2:00 pm".
He had the whole car cracking up. What a way to start the morning.
Bozo
BMTman
This morning, the turnstile was not reading my unlimited ride metrocard:
PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN
PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN AT THIS TURNSTILE
PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN AT THIS TURNSTILE
PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN AT THIS TURNSTILE
PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN AT THIS TURNSTILE
etc.
So, learning my lessons well, I went over to the station agent. Once I got her to look up from her book (Hello? Hello! HELLOOOOO!!), which was some novel, not the paperwork subway-buff speaks of -- and they wonder why the hours at that booth have been reduced -- she began pointing this way and that. Maybe the speaker was broken or something, but I couldn't hear a thing. Initially confused, I finally figured out she was gesturing for me to swipe my card at the booth reader so she could check it. I did. She saw that it was a "good" unlimited ride card and buzzed me through the "Special Entry" turnstile.
Take heed, fellow travelers. It may take some prodding, but if you're right, the station agents just might help you (no offense to subway-buff :o) ).
Let me suggest a less stressful way to gain entry to that station.
Buy a $15 Value card, you'll start off with one free ride. Carry it around in case you need to ride the system with a friend/spouse/etc.
Then when you get the dreaded SWIPE AGAIN, go to the next turnstile, swipe your value card, and be on your way.
If you want to be nice to your fellow passengers tell the kindly Staion Agent that the turnstile needs some "service".
BTW, the value card is good for a YEAR and then you can turn it in at the Subway station for a replacement that's good for another year. You can also reflect on all those nickles the "float" on your $15 will be giving the TA.
I'm not being factitious, just have HPS.
Mr t__:^)
>>>Let me suggest a less stressful way to gain entry to that station. Buy a $15 Value card, you'll start off with one free ride. Carry it around in case you need to ride the system with a friend/spouse/etc. Then when you get the dreaded SWIPE AGAIN, go to the next turnstile, swipe your value card, and be on your way. <<<
Trouble is, they've reduced the hours at that station booth so much, that during much of the day, the only way to use that entrance is via the iron maiden (official name "VEEP," I think) which is the turnstile I was using this morning. (As a matter of fact, the booth is closed when I get home in the evenings, and a line actually forms at the iron maidens to get out of the system since the other viable exits, the turnstiles, are closed.) I have carried a value card before as a backup. However, today I didn't have one, and I also wanted to test to see if the agent would actually let me through, which she thankfully did after I wrested her from her book-reading.
Don't they have an intercom?
There are no intercoms at my home station, north end of Bedford Park IND, in The Bronx.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>(official name "VEEP," I think) <<<
Thats HEET=High entrance/exit turnstile.
>>>..and a line actually forms at the iron maidens to get out of the system<<<
At my home station they actually added 2 turnstiles as they didn't take out the old Iron Maidens so that there are now 4 where there used to be 2.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ah, "HEET." I knew it was something-EE-something. Thanks for the clarification.
>>> when you get the dreaded SWIPE AGAIN, go to the next turnstile, swipe your value card, and be on your way. <<<
It certainly is simpler, but much more expensive since you are paying again for a ride you have already paid for. It also does not alert the TA to the problem with the turnstile, and ultimately would lead to less maintenance of the card readers.
Carrying the $15.00 value card and not using it is like depositing the money in a 0% savings account. You lose the use of the money and get nothing in return. It would be better to carry one token for any time you are in too much of a hurry to deal with a malfunctioning card reader.
Tom
I actually carry a couple of MCs that have 1.50 left on them, but think that a $15 card gives you more flexibility, i.e. if the wife & kids are going with you to the Halloween prade ... you do know that up to four folks can travel on one VALUE MC ?
My rule of thumb is that riding mass transit shouldn't be a stressful experience ... I don't want to have to get into a conversation with the Station Agent about the operation of the turnstile, they can see if folks are having trouble using it. I also try to notice if one of the turnstiles if giving customers trouble & use a different one.
When I drive I also DON'T get in the longest toll lane. I hold up my money so the agent can see it ... I always get a Thank You.
Mr t__:^)
I've had agents who only use hand signals. It is pretty annoying.
There's an article in the Weekend Journal section of today's Wall Street Journal (page W4) on taxi delays at major airports. Not a single mention of the alternative of riding the train from the airport where that's available, though the article specifically mentions at least three airports with direct rail service: Washington National, Chicago O'Hare, and Atlanta Hartsfield.
Considering that the WSJ is headquartered in New York, you would think the writers would know that these little things called "subways" exist and are regularly used by people who make over $30K a year.
There's an article in the Weekend Journal section of today's Wall Street Journal (page W4) on taxi delays at major airports. Not a single mention of the alternative of riding the train from the airport where that's available, though the article specifically mentions at least three airports with direct rail service: Washington National, Chicago O'Hare, and Atlanta Hartsfield.
Considering that the WSJ is headquartered in New York, you would think the writers would know that these little things called "subways" exist and are regularly used by people who make over $30K a year.
All well and good, except for the fact that the writers, editors, managers etc. at the WSJ, like their counterparts at the Times, might consider themselves too "upscale" to mingle with the Common People (ick!) on the subway.
[Considering that the WSJ is headquartered in New York, you would think the writers would know that these little things called "subways" exist and are regularly used by peple making over $30K a year.]
The Wall Street Journal looks down on paupers who make only $30K. Its target audience is the high-powered, mover-and-shaker limo types who make $100K or more and don't have to ride trains with us mere mortals.
I had an interesting incident happen to me last night on my way home - I boarded the first car of a southbound E at Lexington Ave, and noticed someone with a video camera filming through the railfan window. This was not some tourist just filming a brief stretch of rail, the individual in question had obviously planned to film the subway specifically. He came prepared with a tripod and cloth to drape over his camera to eliminate reflection from the interior car lights, and was wearing some type of press ID. I approached this individual, and discovered that he was none other than ... Sallam Allah, our resident subtalk videographer, visiting from LA! I spent a few minutes chatting with him, mainly giving advice on when might be a good time to catch various express runs to film (the 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and A trains were the ones he was interested in). He was quite
pleasant to speak with in person, even after I mentioned that I don't generally agree with him about either railfan windows or politics - quite a bit different than what I would have expected based on the bombastic tone of some of his posts. Overall, it was an enjoyable encounter.
subfan
See! Now all he has to do is go to typing school!
No arguement from me on that one...
subfan
Let's hire Jersey Mike to tutor him in typing.
And then someone tutor JerseyMike on spelling and manners.....
Signed onto City Search to see what they had for sale:
Emmigrant (only 8 of 10); Am Exp (all 4); Jets & Giants; plus some older ones, e.g. Uniqueness of the Subways.
The only problem with these special cards, for me, no Fun Pass version, just $15 value, $17 weekly Unlim.
(they have a min order of $15, so four Fun Passes is what I like to buy).
Mr t__:^)
In a document discussing restoration of service to Quakertown, Pennsylvania, the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers discussed an option that I did not know existed. It stated that Flexiliner EMUs and DMUs can be coupled to provide a dual propulsion train that would not have to stop for an engine swap. Is this true? If so, what disadvantages would there be to doing this because an potion like this is not discussed often.
In a document discussing restoration of service to Quakertown, Pennsylvania, the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers discussed an option that I did not know existed. It stated that Flexiliner EMUs and DMUs can be coupled to provide a dual propulsion train that would not have to stop for an engine swap. Is this true? If so, what disadvantages would there be to doing this because an option like this is not discussed often.
Engine overload when one of the power sources is switched out. You can't use a simple power-trailer design because both have to function as the power car and the trailer. Each powerplant has to be light enough to be hauled by the other and powerful enough to haul the other. The end result would be machinical problems or poor handling in single mode not to mention the logictics of pairing an EMU with a DMU.
Uhm....MU capacity. It's just as easy as it is with a dual-mode loco, if not easier. CMStP&P, near the end of it's electrification, MU'd diesel and electric locos. The trick to it is to build enough load capacity into the electric pickup so that it would not overload when drawing heavy current to propel 16 traction motors instead of 8 (assuming a unit is 2 cars, 4 trucks, 1 motor per axle). The diesel version can function as simply as slug-sets do in rail yards.
-Hank
If it ran as a Mother-Slug set why not make the diesel power motors run off the outside power supply. Guess what? Now you have a Dual Mode. ::gasp:: Maybe we're over thinking things a bit here.
That is how they do it!
-Hank
I thought the poster was refering to an EMU and DUM working independantly. In the tunnels or the non-electrified part one unit would haul the other dead in tow.
I have seen the old station in Quakertown. It would make for a great restoration if it were used. I remember driving over some tracks in the vicinity of Q-town which were paved over completely. In other words, there were tracks extending on the horizon on both sides of the road, but the part where they crossed the road was obscured by the asphalt with no provisions for wheel flanges, leading me to believe that this was an abandoned line. I wonder if that's the line they will revitalize for the service. Or, will they use an active freight line? Who owns the line between Philadelphia and Quakertown? CSX? NS? Was it former Reading RR territory? If CSX owns it now, good luck!
SEPTA ownes the RoW almost until Bethlehem. There was a stink on Reading talk about a new contruction project that would corrupt the RoW in B'hem proper and prevent any future service to B-hem, but the project was found to have no impact.
Yes, the Flexliner EMUs and DMUs can and do operate together. They would be a natural for trains on Amtrak's Inland Route to Hartford and Springfield because they would no longer need to change locos at New Haven. Amtrak should really consider purchasing Flexliners, both electric and diesel versions.
You do realize that what you are sugesting will mean the end of not only a wonderful railfan spectical (power change), but also the jobs for the people who do the power change, many of whom I chat up on my trips home.
Well if I'm not mistaken, the workers who do the power change also have other duties. Plus with all-electric service to Boston on the horizon, they will already be doing the power change a lot less.
As far as the power change being a wonderful railfan spectical, it also used to be done by CNJ and later Penn Central at South Amboy on the North Jersey Coast Line where electrification used to end. The New York Central also used to change power at Croton-Harmon on trains going north of there. But it is no longer done today and nobody's complaining about it.
Are there any power changes at Long Branch or do people have to change trains?
People change trains at Long Branch. The only through service to Bay Head is diesel all the way from Hoboken.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since Chicago has grade crossings on its subway, what actions are taken to prevent people from walking on the tracks and getting electrocuted? I think PATH has a couple of grade crossings, too. What do they do?
Same with the LIRR. I think they just use warning signs, yellow paint and big scary diagrams of you getting fried.
"Since Chicago has grade crossings on its subway, what actions are taken to prevent people from walking on the tracks and getting electrocuted?"
Purple Line: The two grade crossings on this line, in the suburb of Wilmette, have an elaborate protection system. When the crossing gates are up, sections of wire fencing block entry to the right of way. When the gates go down, the fence sections slide to one side to let the train pass.
All the other grade crossings are on much of the Yellow Line and the outer ends of the Brown Line and the Blue Line Cermak Branch. These are protected only with warning signs and "cattle boards", which are wooden angled boards on either side of the running rails, designed to discourage people from walking on the rails.
Do you mean the metal slat things that run perpendicular to the rail for a depth of about 5 feet and hurt hoved mamals or some dirivitive of that.
Well, they're wood, but yes, they are slanted and they were originally designed for mainline railways to keep hooved animals off the tracks.
Is the third rail continous, or is there a gap when it crosses the street?
That's a silly question.
-Hank
[That's a silly question.]
It may be silly, but it still merits an answer: No the third rail is NOT continuous at a grade crossing - it's interrupted by the street.
"Purple Line: The two grade crossings on this line, in the suburb of Wilmette, have an elaborate protection system. When the crossing gates are up, sections of wire fencing block entry to the right of way. When the gates go down, the fence sections slide to one side to let the train pass. "
When was this installed, I had relations that lived near one of these when I was a kid, and my cousins and I played around on crossings. But I don't know if I remember these from back then, or from more recenet visits.
Either way our parents impressed on us the danger of the third rail when we went to cubs games so we knew not to mess around.
My favorite memory is when my cousin threw a baseball bat at the crossing gate control box and the lights started flashing and the gates just started going up and down.
S.I.R.T also had grade crossings on some of its lines before it was reduced to one passenger line.
All public SIR crossings were eliminated by 1965. (Jefferson Ave, Grant City, New Dorp, Oakwood, and Bay Terrace were the only crossings remaining on the Tottenville line after 1940.
The North Shore line had grade crossings on private property at US Gypsum, Cadell Dry Dock, and a few other industrial customers. South Beach line had crossings only between the last station and the Wentworth Ave phone booth.
-Hank
SIRT had grade crossings on the mainline too, even after it was the only line. I remember riding many trips out to Tottenville, and those awful shrill whistles on their cars would give you an earache when the motormen whistled for all the crossings.
I think they were all gone by the mid-1960's when the line was upgraded.
Higher liabilty insurance premiums?
They should also have signs that say "DO NOT PISS ON THIRD RAIL" in Chicago.
There was some inebriated character a few years ago who decided to relieve himself on the third rail and got cooked. Now his family is suing CTA from what I understand.
(helluva way to go if you wanna ask me....)
Its harder than you think to kill yourself by pissing on the 3rd rail. You also need to have a connection to the ground and most people with shoes are protected.
BTW the CTA should have installed sturdy 3rd rail covers. They deserve to be sued for such a gross safety hazzard. I'm serious.
Because of the design of the pick-up shoe, they cannot install them. I think it would require a whole new truck at this point, in any case not a simple matter.
Oh, they use an overhead, spring shoe.
Well, the drunk who did kill himself by pissing on the third rail in Chicago area didn't find it too difficult.
Of course, he probably had worn out shoes and pissed all over his feet too....making the "juice" flow quickly!!!
This happened a few years ago, the story made news when he won. Apparently, the guy couldn't read english, and it was the fault of the CTA that 3 fences were not enough to stop the guy.
-Hank
The West Jersey and Seashore electrified its Camden-Glassboro-Newfield-Atlantic City line in 1906 with a third rail system. With the 10 mile spur from Newfield to Millville, it was the longest electrification project in the country. Gloucester City (bordering Camden) had many grade crossings and mandated that trolley wire be used instead of third rail within city limits. Express trains would coast through Gloucester (4.5 miles); locals' conductors would raise the trolley pole on the fly.
This was the WJ&S alternate route from Camden to Atlantic City; its primary route was via Winslow Junction and Hammonton, presently operated by PATCO from Camden to Lindenwold and by NJT from Lindenwold to Atlantic City.
The WJ&S became PRR, PRSL, CR, and Shared Assets.
I don't think the expresses could coast for 4.5 miles. Besides I thought the trolley wires only lasted for 1.2 miles. I believe I have several pics of express trains with the poles up. Also the WJ&S did not own the Winslow Jct. route, that was owned by the Canden and Atlantic Railroad. Furthermore the Delair Bridge Branch was PRR all the way to VERNON interlocking. Anyway when the WJ&S electrified in 1906 it was owned by the PRR as was the C&A. I am not sure when, if ever, the WJ&S was a private company. Like the MTA, the PRR was an Umbrella funding organization for both the WJ&S and C&A. The Reading owned the rival ACRR. When in 1890 a war almost broke out at Woodbine Jct. over crossing rights it was PRR vs. Reading. It wasn't until the 1934 merger when the WJ&S and C&A identities were finally dropped, BUT I believe I saw the WJ&S RR listed as a part owned corporation on that chart in Wreck of the Penn Central. Old railroads never die, they just become wholely owned subsidiaries or leased for 999 years.
Also the WJ&S did not own the Winslow Jct. route, that was owned by the Camden and Atlantic Railroad.
According to Frederick Kramer's Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines (Crusader Press, 1980) the Camden and Atlantic was merged into the West Jersey and Seashore in 1896, which was controlled but not owned by the PRR.
Furthermore the Delair Bridge Branch was PRR all the way to VERNON interlocking.
I don't recall having mentioned that branch in the post in question. However, I played on that track between the trestle over Cooper Creek and the Maple Avenue bridge 4 to 5 days a week from 1946 to 1950. Although the track was PRR, the trains were PRSL.
I was just mentioning the Bridge Branch to bring another contender into the south Jersey scope. I didn't know that the C&A was merged into the WJ&S, but in my books that route is always refered to as the C&A. My "By Rail To The Boardwalk" has a c.1915 diagram of Atlantic City and it shows the C&A station, the ACRR station and the WJ&S station (Tennesse Ave.). In fact all my PRSL books generally keep the 2 seperate untill 1934. I'd be more specific, but alas all my referance material is at home.
Rich Gladulich says "In October, 1897, the PRR's West Jersey & Seashore subsidiary began work on a $3 million improvement program that added 41 miles of second main track between Berlin and Atlantic City..."(By Rail To The Boardwalk, pp56-57.
What about the diagram in the back? This also explains why only the WJ&S is listed in the PC ownership chart.
Wasn't the C&A actually the Camden and Amboy?
-Hank
The Camden and Amboy was the first railroad in NJ.
The Camden and Atlantic was a different railroad. I suspect each of them was called "C&A" by people who used them and lived near them. Old maps in the PRSL books that Mike and I have been referring to use "C&A" for the Camden and Atlantic. I assume the Camden and Amboy had already been folded into the PRR so the designation was not ambiguous.
I anticipate a more scholarly resopnse from Jersey Mike to follow.
Not without all my books you won't, we should discuss this in chat on Wensday night, but alas they will be showing Mr. Smith Goes to Washington as part of the election week special so I'll be in about 10 pm.
I don't think the expresses could coast for 4.5 miles. Besides I thought the trolley wires only lasted for 1.2 miles.
Don't know about that, but it sounds logical.
I believe I have several pics of express trains with the poles up.
The expresses coasted through if they were able to get up sufficient speed. Otherwise, the conductor had to raise the pole.
Source: Dave Cope, co-producer of the record Whistles to the Jersey Shore, in a presentation to the West Jersey Chapter, NRHS, around 1980. His whole program was on the electrified line, accompanied by slides. He rode the line many times as a passenger and as a railfan.
Troley wire was first installed on the Vineland-Millville portion, but then replaced by 3rd rail a few years later. At first the 3rd rail wasn't even covered w/ a wooden guard, but after some electricutions (the newspapers called the 3rd rail a menace) the WJ&S installed fencing, warning signs and a wooden cover. Around populated areas the cover covered the top, rear and lower front of the 3rd rail with only a 4-6 inch slit for the shoe to slide along. Also in By Rail there is a picture of a motorman standing astride of an uncovered 3rd rail. Its right accross from the little blurb about the cutt-off that wasn't.
>>>I think PATH has a couple of grade crossings, too. <<<
IIRC path has only one grade crossing, in The Harrison yard. It is used almost exclusively by employees.
Peace,
ANDEE
PATH used tohave a grade crossing on their mainline, west of Journal Square. It was just before the trains started the slight upgrade to cross the drawbridge, I forget the name of the street.
It was eliminated in the 1970's as the vehicle and train traffic in the area got way to heavy.
PATH doesn't have public grade crossings any more. At the time the PA took over from the H&M, there was one west of Journal Square, in the vicinity of Broadway and West Side Ave.
There are some on PATH property out by Harrison; at least one is a formal (paved road + gates) crossing, while some are graveled access roads. And of course there's the "mini" employee pedestrian crossing at Journal Square.
MAJOR CHANGES TO TAKE EFFECT ON OCTOBER 29
Amtrak has released an internal memo documenting the multiple changes that will take place with the implementation of the Fall 2000 timetable on October 29. This is the first of six phases in Amtrak's ramp-up plan to pave the way for an orderly transition to the new ACELA Express service. The changes introduced on the October 29 timetable are the most far-reaching since the introduction of Metroliner Service.
Major changes are planned for most if not all of the stations on the Amtrak-owned Northeast Corridor. Many of those proposed operations are highlighted and detailed below:
A new slot has been introduced to implement the one high-speed round trip ACELA Express train between Washington, D.C. and Boston, Massachusetts. This will be an entirely new train and time slot, not replacing any already existing service or Metroliner schedule. Full operational details are still being devised and will be announced on the November 16 rollout of the service.
A new early morning ACELA Regional train will be added between New York and Boston. The new train, carrying symbol 190, will depart New York at 05:30 ET on weekdays, arriving in Boston at 09:45 ET. This will allow a more rapid trip for customers that board at New Rochelle, Stamford, Bridgeport, New Haven, Old Saybrook and New London, Connecticut.
Afternoon ACELA Regional service will be implemented between Boston and New York. This service will carry symbol 177 and depart Boston at 15:20 ET, making limited stops en route to New York. Total trip time is planned for just under four hours at three hours and fifty-five minutes, placing the train in New York Penn Station at 19:15 ET.
Northeast Direct service will see an additional train added at 19:30 ET out of New York Penn Station. This train will arrive in Boston just after midnight, with reduced trip times noted when electric locomotives are available to power it. This train will replace the current train 178, which has departed New York at 21:30 ET and put passengers into Boston after 03:00 ET.
A 20:00 ET Metroliner departure from Washington, D.C. will be restored. This train will operate to New York Penn Station and actually be replaced in the future by an ACELA Express train set.
Trains operating between Washington, D.C. and New York will be scheduled on a slightly faster timetable. This change will shave approximately twenty minutes off of all through trains operating from Washington to New York. The new Washington to New York trip time will now be established at three hours and ten minutes.
Train 172, operating from Wilmington, Delaware to New York Penn Station, will be scheduled for eighteen minutes faster than the current trip time. The train will now depart Wilmington at 08:33 ET and arrive in New York at 10:15 ET.
Additional service will be noted at New Rochelle and Bridgeport, Connecticut. These stations will go from nine and eleven stops, respectively, to thirteen and sixteen stops, respectively.
Two additional trains will also be added to the Springfield Line.
Faster schedules will be observed on the Harrisburg Line between Philadelphia and Harrisburg, PA. This faster service will be possible through the use of electric locomotives. Trains leaving Philadelphia will arrive in Harrisburg in just under one hour and forty-five minutes.
Keystone Service will be enhanced on the Harrisburg Line with the introduction of new train 664. This train will depart Harrisburg at 17:30 ET and operate directly through to New York Penn Station, arriving there at 21:27 ET. This will give customers a late evening departure from Philadelphia to New York.
The Vermonter will see reduced transit time through the reduction of stops en route. No stops will be made at Meriden or Berlin after October 29. Alternative boarding is still in the development stage for these two communities.
More changes will be outlined in specific detail later in the week.
>>>Faster schedules will be observed on the Harrisburg Line between Philadelphia and Harrisburg, PA. This faster service will be possible through the use of electric locomotives. Trains leaving Philadelphia will arrive in Harrisburg in just under one hour and forty-five minutes.
Keystone Service will be enhanced on the Harrisburg Line with the introduction of new train 664. This train will depart Harrisburg at 17:30 ET and operate directly through to New York Penn Station, arriving there at 21:27 ET. This will give customers a late evening departure from Philadelphia to New York. <<<
I'm likin' that late departure. I always wished there was a later train out of the burg to NYP. Hopefully, this train will run Sunday nights too.
I was able to pick up the Winter Timetable at Boston's South Station
today. Even though it says "Fall/Winter" on it, there is a
"wrapper" on it that says "Effective Oct 29 thorugh Dec 10 only"
indicating there will be a new one out when(!) Acela Express begins.
How does a dual guage switch work? And if the narrow guage tracks end somewhere within the standard guage tracks, how is the narrow guage bumper-blocked? Karl B's post about the East Broad Top RR made me remeber the dual guage tracks in the vicinity of the PRR Mainline and EBT. These make for some interesting RR crossings -- not your usual rumble!
I dual guage switch just has an extra point and an extra set of frogs. All dual guage tracks that I know of have 3 rails so you'd just have to fit an extra 1/2 turnout within the 4 foot. As for a narrow guage track ending within a standard guage track they'd probably just have sign saying "3 FOOT CAR STOP". Its not that hard to re-rail a train after it falls off the end of a track and with 1 wheel still on a rail rolling off the end would not be the most disterous thing in the world.
The Rockhill Trolley Museum (that you recently mentioned) and the East Broad Top share dual gauge track briefly. It's especially interesting when one gauge has a switch where the other does not.
The Orange Empire museum also has some dual guage track.
When I posed the question, I was actually thinking of the dual guage trackage I saw on the abaondoned portion of the EBTRR, where dual Pennsy / EBT tracks cross US Rte. 522 at grade, probably near Shirleysburg. Though not in use by narrow guage equipment these days, these tracks are still intact. It's a bit funny to see all those rails in the middle of the road. I have many a memory of the EBT steam locos using the dual guage trackage on RTM's "property" (RTM actually leases the land and ROW from EBT) to turn their consists on a wye. I can still hear my little kid voice asking my dad "why there was another rail in the middle which the trolleys don't use..."
IIRC, up near Mt. Union, there is a NEW grade crossing (for the 522 bypass of Mt. Union) that has all three rails, because the EBT is technically not abandoned up there! Know if this is right?
You're exactly right, I have been over the same road myself, and wondered why PENNDOT would lay track in a brand new road for a railroad that hadn't run on them in 44 years. The EBT mainline was all 36" gauge except in the Mt Union area where they had two regular gauge steam engines for switching purposes with the PRR. The EBT used to temporarily put narrow guage trucks under regular gauge boxcars that had to go on their line. I think that all of the 4'8 1/2" wide track in Orbisonia was built by the trolley museum when they started their operation there.
I think that all of the 4'8 1/2" wide track in Orbisonia was built by the trolley museum when they started their operation there.
Yes, that's correct.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think that both the railroad and the trolley museum are great. It is such a shame that they are both starving for customers.
I guess that is what happens when you operate a tourist attraction in a remote location.
Orbisonia is almost the Pennsylvania version of Brigadoon. Take away the modern autos and the town could be in any year from 1920 to 1956.
The folks at Rockhill are great, and I'm hapy to count many as friends. A bunch of us from BSM took a trip last summer to Rockhill/Orbisonia and really enjoyed ourselves. After getting our fill at Rockhill, it was across the street to the EBT. Sprung the extra $$ for the Parlor, and when the conductor came to lift the tickets, he recognized us (95% of the EBT's crews are railfans) as being from BSM and came back and talked shop all the way to the grove.
At the grove a couple of us walked up front and got into a discussion with the engine crew about the crappy coal they got last year.
It was a fun trip, but a bit of a long drive (via Frederick to drop of our southern Maryland section) from Baltimore. We gotta do it again, soon!
We had a delightful visit with the three ladies who operated the Rockhill Trolley Museum gift shop, and were able to talk them into making a fresh batch of popcorn.
Did you go to Frederick by way of Hagerstown or Gettysburg?
I-70 from Baltimore to Frederick, met the guys coming up from the DC/Southern Maryland area and proceeded to Rockhill. I wasn't driving, I think we went 70 to Hagerstown and then to Rockhill. (Put 7 railfans in a minivan and all we did was talk streetcar/train/transit for most of the trip.)
The Aughwick Creek valley is on the other side of one of the PA mountain ranges, so you get to go up and down on US 522. Off the beaten path is an apt description.
Did you see the Harrisburg Railways and Valley Railways exhibits in the museum shop when you were there? Valley Railways trolleys ran 1/2 block from the house where I grew up in PA, but only up till 31 years before my birth. :o( My uncle, who sadly just passed away at age 95, worked for the line as an electrician. The car-barn where he worked is still standing in Lemoyne .
I enjoyed the RTM gift shop very much. I was pleased to find Zimmerman's book on the GG-1 there as well, which I bought and got a senior discount. I thought the RTM shop was far superior to its EBT sister as to content.
Yeah, it coulda been Mt. Union. We were on 522 for a while.
"Technically not abandoned"? The steam excursions don't go that far do they? I'm not aware of any other use of EBT besides tourism. Perhaps another SubTalker is more knowledgable...
The EBT never abandoned its property, even portions that haven't been used in over 40 years.
Yeah, I knew Mr. Kovalchik still owns portions of the original EBT that the excursion trains don't run on. So I might call the portions where no trains run "abandoned" even though they are still part of EBT "property." If by "abandoned" you mean totally given up, sold off, and no longer a railroad, then, of course, the railroad is not.
Kovalchik Salvage (the sons, Joe passed away several years ago) owns the East Broad Top Railroad and Coal Company in total. This includes the entire line from Mt. Union to Robertsdale. No ICC abandonment certificate was ever issued, the non-operating portions are "suspended", and have been since 1956. The Kovalchiks are now cooperating with the Friends of the EBT, and the Friends are working to get state and Federal funds to first stabilize and then rebuild the "suspended" portions.
In Britan they talk about the "Derry Miracle". Think about this: What has happened since 1956 in Orbisonia is the EBT Miracle. Why a scrapper would buy a railroad and never tear it up has to be a miracle.
I spoke to several crew members on the excursion train this summer who are still optimistic that the line will eventually be reopened as a tourist train operation between Orbisonia and Mount Union.
They have four narrow guage steam engines that are operational, and two more that could be with a little work.
Isn't there a 0-6-0 switcher "trapped" in an engine house in Mt. Union?
I believe so, for many years they were both there, but one was sold and shipped out 15 years ago or so.
The steam excursions leave Orbisonia (Rockhill Furnace) and run several miles north to Colgate Grove which is a wooded picnic area with no facilities. There is a wye there where the entire train can be turned for the trip back. Colgate Grove is not too far from Shirleysburg. The mileage used for the excursion train is a tiny fraction of the total EBT trackage used in the railroad's heyday.
Can you imagine the rehabilitation costs in reclaiming trackage that has not been used in 44 years?
Hello, there. Lately, the downloading of the Transitalk site takes what seems like forever. Is there a technical problem?
Too many pictures. The site's overloaded with content.
-Hank
What is OOS?
Out of Service
I think it might be better for all of us if you would use a more descriptive subject than just "Question."
I think it might be better for all of us if you would use a more descriptive subject than just "Question."
So do I.
I Railfanned on the E today number 3579 from Chambers all the way to Parsons. I always have wondered a question. When a E Train goes into the storage area, does the Motorman get a Call-on? Or a proceed with caution on Main route?
He gets a call-on. A call-on allows him to proceed past the signal, but to use restricted speed and extreme caution expecting to find the track up ahead occupied (which is how trains are layed up on tracks one behind the other), or a broken rail. The yellow-over-green signal aspect (proceed with caution over main route) simply means "go over the main route, expect to find the next signal at danger (a red aspect)"
A call-on is issued only to the second and third lay-ups. The first layup gets a yellow over green.
Each storage track fits 3 trains. The first train in on each track gets a yellow top & green bottom. There is a signal approx 8 cars before the bumper block which you must key by (AK symbol). The other 2 trains on each track gets a call on (red over red over yellow). Once the t/o activates the stop arm lever, the trains proceed.
I was looking throught www.zdeno.com and found this...
http://www.zdeno.com/images/rollingstock/work/work15.jpg
It looks like an R110A. I could've sworn a while back that they were getting repaired. But, if it is an R110A, then why is 1 or the 3 side doors covered with metal fins (or whatever they are)
running on...
or
That's the Pump Train, which operates when there's a water main break. The train helps to clear the water from the tunnel. Former passenger cars (R-17/21/22) are utilized, plus the car pictured which is a spare R-62 car body that underwent modifications. It didn't see passenger service, that's the way it came from the factory.
Where to find the Pump Trains: 207th St, Westchester, and 38th St Yards.
-Stef
The appointed model for these cars are the R-65s!
Yes, these cars were made from left over shells from the Kawaskai Plant, BUT one of them is a car from the Union Square Fiasco on the (4) Line.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
It is? Do you have a number on the car in question? 1435,36,39?
-Stef
It is not! According to the "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing maunal". PC01-PC03 were built by New York Railway in 1985 at a cost of $555,664 each. The carbodies were made by Bombardier and not Kawasaki as reported.
Thank YOU, for the clarification.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow, what's a lot of switch frogs!
Stef is correct
-Harry
There was not a dull moment on the IRT tonight. There 4 things that messed up the Lexington Ave service.
3:30PM- there was a Switch and signal problems in Brooklyn causing No.4,5 trains to go back uptown at 86 Street, Brooklyn Bridge, and Bowling Green. There was no 4+5 service to Brooklyn. The only Lines getting by was the No.2+3 Lines. They restored Brooklyn Bound No.4+5 service at about 3:55PM.
4:04PM- A Downtown No.6 Train had a sick passenger at Canal Street sending the Downtown No.6 Trains on the Express track from 14 St to Brooklyn Bridge. That cleared up about 4:25PM.
4:55PM- Signal problems South of Jackson Ave causing delays on the No.2+5 Lines. Some downtown trains where turned back at E 180 Street.
5:45PM A Downtown No.6 Train had a Brake Pipe Rupture North of Witlock Ave.
For some reason, it strikes fear into the hearts of railfans, especially from the East...Chicago's exposed third rail, charged wth 600 volts DC.
The present pickup uses a gravity shoe and is supposedly of English origin from the 1890's. The Metropolitan West Side adopted the design when its electrified elevated opened in 1895, the Garfield PK, Douglas PK, Logan SQ, and Humbolt PK.
In addition to the gravity shoe, there are two sleet scrapers that also pick up current when in the lowered position. When the "L" was extended at the outer ends, the operation was at grade level and included the open third rail. Three routes used trolley wire, mainly to avoid community objections about the third rail--Evanston, Skokie, and the Lake Street. These trolley wires kept old equipment around long past their expected lives.
Where tracks cross streets there is a gap in the third rail, about 15 feet before the sidewalk crossing. There are about 25 grade crossings on today's "L", mostly in 25 mph territory. All crossings are gate protected and except for the Yellow Line, trains don't blow for the crossings. In the old days motormen were ordered to coast across these gaps, but modern trains power across with no ill effects.
In the 1950's about 310 of the PCC 6000 series came equiped with a paddle shoe, but the older design returned. The Budd 2200 series also have a paddle third rail shoe. but all subsequent orders reverted to the tried and true gravity shoe. Springing has never been used.
Despite its openness, employees, customers, and tresspassers seldom come in contact with it, its evidently treated with due respect. The legal case mostly involved the signage and did the signs convey the danger involved in contact with the rail.
David Harrison
That was some very interesting information about the Chicago El's Third Rail System and associated equipment. Can you or anyone else give me detailed info on the Metro North and LIRR's Third Rail System. I think this inverted system where the pickup shoe(s) slides under the rail is safer.
The Metro North or the former NY Central electrified zones uses an underruning covered third rail. As far as I know this was the original installation method, except for terminal switching, where a heavy overhead third rail was installed on girderwork (as opposed to catenary). This arrangement was similar to the original B&O electrification which changed to an exposed third rail operation. There was also a (NYC) underruning third rail system in Detriot. The (NYC) Cleveland Union Terminal electrification was a DC catenary application.
The Long Island third rail is similar if not very close to the IRT electrification of overrunning covered third rail. The original LIRR cars were a Gibbs design not unlike the original IRT subway cars. The original Penn Station electrification was that same 600v DC covered third rail with some overhead bridgework. The famous DD1 electic locomotives were the motive power for the PRR Penn Station electrification. There was also some early AC overhead catenary in Philadelphia where the PRR MU's got their start.
Another noteworthy electrification in America was the early New Haven center exposed third rail application in Bristol Conn. You can read all about these early electrifications in the Middleton book "When the Steam Railroads Electrified".
I believe that most of the early steam railroad electrifications predate most of the rapid transit or interurban electrifications.
Although, there was a period in time when the need for copper (trolley) wire exceeded production capabilities. In New York City, the electric subway was running well before the elevated railroads decided (or were forced) to electrify, and some horse (trolley) car lines lasted even longer.
"In New York City, the electric subway was running well before the elevated railroads decided (or were forced) to electrify....."
Assuming that "elevated railroads" mean the Manhattan and Brooklyn El systems, I thought that the Brooklyn system was electrified just prior to 1900, and that the Manhattan system followed shortly thereafter. After all, the original IRT subway cars were tested on the Second Av El before the subway started operating in October 1904.
Yes, your right. However, the building of the electricly powered subway forced the hand of the elevated railway people, Belmont, Vanderbuilt, etc.
April 4, 1903 - The steam era on the NY Elevated came to an end as the last steam locomotive ran on the 6th Ave line.
BTW there is a Chicago's Rapid Transit, Vol1 - CERA #113 for sale on ebay.
"In New York City, the electric subway was running well before the elevated railroads decided (or were forced) to electrify....."
Assuming that "elevated railroads" mean the Manhattan and Brooklyn El systems, I thought that the Brooklyn system was electrified just prior to 1900, and that the Manhattan system followed shortly thereafter. After all, the original IRT subway cars were tested on the Second Av El before the subway started operating in October 1904.
Yes, your right. However, the building of the electricly powered subway forced the hand of the elevated railway people, Belmont, Vanderbuilt, etc.
April 4, 1903 - The steam era on the NY Elevated came to an end as the last steam locomotive ran on the 6th Ave line.
BTW there is a Chicago's Rapid Transit, Vol1 - CERA #113 for sale on ebay.
I believe that most of the early steam railroad electrifications predate most of the rapid transit or
interurban electrifications.
Although, there was a period in time when the need for copper (trolley) wire exceeded production
capabilities. In New York City, the electric subway was running well before the elevated railroads
decided (or were forced) to electrify, and some horse (trolley) car lines lasted even longer.
I'd have to disagree with this passage. The earliest rapid
transit electrification was the Manhattan & Brooklyn Bridge
Railway in 1895. Frank Sprague had experimented with electric
operation on the 34 St branch of the Manhattan el system a
decade earlier, although the idea was rejected by the conservative
management.
It was Chicago's adaptation of multiple unit electrification in
1897, closely followed by Brooklyn's project which began in
1898, which demonstrated its feasibility. Their success, as
well as Boston's success in 1900, prompted the IRT to go forward
with an all-electric, all-MU design. Since they had at that point
taken over the Manahttan els, it was only logical that they apply
the same technology there.
The Metro-North under-running third rail is known as the Sprague-Wilgus design, after the two men prominent in the
Grand Central terminal electrification of 1907.
Oh, I agree, thanks to Mr. Sprauge and his MU controller, that was the link pin. The single (trolley) car operation, or the heavier loco & trailers were not a good replacement for the steam operation.
Electrification itself did not offer a viable soulution to the capacity requirements of the NY Els.
The Brooklyn Bridge line and the 9th Av El started out as a cable operations. In my post last month, I stated that cable operation on the 6th Ave line seemed more appropriate for its beginning operation due its almost stright line point to point terminals. The operation of steam locos on its structure reduced its life span considerably..
The 9th Ave line was rebuilt several times in its early history to accept heavier (steam) equipment and had a third track installed for greater capacity and double-decked in the electrification expansion.
The 3rd Ave line was the epitome of that expansion. I am not sure if the 2nd Ave line was built or rebuilt to standards of the 3rd Ave line. The 6th Ave structure could not be expanded as it was a very busy line with almost all station stops being important and the structure itself was not suitable for expansion.
I wonder how the high structure on the nothern part of the of the 9th Ave line fared after the years of steam operation over it. Although, it should be remembered, that the original scheme was to have the NY & Northern (NY & Hudson River RR) run on that structure. However, steam RR equipment had exceeded the limits of the then building El structures. The same held true for the 3rd Ave line for the NY & Harlem Rive RR (south from GCT) and the 2nd Ave line for the New Haven's entry scheme into NY City (instead of GCT) from the Bronx.
Looks like I started another debate, but some excellent info came out of it. Thank you Tony IND and Mellow One.
I had a post last month on how they (the former owners) beat the 6th Ave El into swords (for Japan). I believe, that once the City got heavily involved with rapid trasit, the first subway, the private owners of the rapid transit systems saw the handwriting, and put their people in places of authority in the new system so the could milk it for all it was worth, while depreciating their former investments out to the point that they would have to be turned over to the city for healthy sum of money (for an unhealthy system), and they would exit the business with profits or returns on their investment that were similar to the Clinton's return on their (failed) ventures.
I was just riding around in Chicago the last couple of days, and was wondering about the sleet scrapers. How are they lowered?
In New york they were pneumatically operated.
In Chicago, they probably hold a guy over the side by his feet while he holds a wooden scraper.
Cars are fitted with scrapers beginning in Septeber when they go in for inspections. By the end of October, all the cars are fitted. Scrapers are removed in late spring in the same fashion. Scraper equiped cars have a rattling noise, the trained ear can distinguish.
In the motorman's cab is the sleet scraper handle, made of a 2 inch square wood, about 3 feet long. On one end is a hollow metal fixture that fits over the end of the sleet scraper lowering device. The device is a metal rod that pivots. Insert the rod inside the fixture, rotate the whole handle until the scrper drops down onto the third rail. Turn your face away in case the scraper arcs.
If a motorman incounters icing on the line, he or she would stop their train, go down to track level and drop scrapers on the walkway side. The other side would be dropped when a walkway is on that side of the train.
When a predictable icing occurs, yard switchmen would lower scrapers at terminals. Chicago's third rails have a heater strip attached that is turned on in inclimate weather. Also certain road cars apply an antifreeze paste to the third rail. Eight car trains are sometimes run on midnights just to insure third rail contact.
My video three shows the CTA in the snow while seven covers the 1999 January Blizzard in which the doors and motors caused almost 2/3 of the fleet to be sidelined.
David Harrison
They have heater strips for the entire length of the outdoor lines?
That's a 10-4. There may be stretches with old third rail but its on all the new lines for sure.
David Harrison
It is also critical to mention that on the Purple Line between Central and Linden Terminal there are two or three crossings at grade level.
These crossings do have exposed third rail, however, the tracks are completely covered by protective covering that only gets removed when a train is comming. This section is in Wilmette, which is one of the richest suburbs in the entire Chicago Area.
On the Other hand, the outer end of the Ravenswood Brown Line and 54th/Cermak Blue Line Branch have grade crossings with no protection other then signs.
The speed limit, atleast on the trains I've been on, is 35 mph with grade crossings.
The Skokie Swift is the only exception. It switches to over-head cantinary just after the Skokie Shops and does 55 mph the entire route. It is a lot of fun to experience this high speed ride with crossings in the area it goes through. The only scary thing is when people don't obey the crossing gates. One time a kid on a bike ignored the crossing gates and our motorman stopped just before him. He stopped on the track shocked as the train stopped, he then took off quickly and we resumed 55 mph.
I also noticed a few weeks ago on the Douglas/Cermak Blue Line Branch that the motorman have to obey green lights at every street crossing. We had to slow down dramatically and almost stop at one crossing because we go to it too fast the gates weren't down completely. Once they were down completely, we proceded at regular speed.
I think the only 25 mph crossing zone is on the Purple Line because the crossings are right before the Linden Terminal and they have to pull into the terminal slowly anyway.
BJ
I don't know what you mean by the word "covered." The only thing covered on the Purple Line in Wilmette is the island terminal which is covered and enclosed by a sound-proof building. The turn-around loop track is also enclosed within its own structure.
There are two grade crossings south of Linden Terminal, protected by the usual crossbucks, flashing lights, and crossing gates. The cyclone fencing enclosing the right-of-way also has hinged cyclone gates that keeps out intruders at the grade crossings. There is a gate across each track, on both sides of the crossing. The pair of gates swing open automatically to allow a train to pass, then swing back to block access to the right-of-way.
The third rail is the same open rail as used systemwide.
The Brown Line grade crossing at Kedzie Avenue and the Blue Line Cicero AV crossing both have stop signs that enforce a rule that all trains must stop before proceeding across these crossings. The gates and flashers are timed to also force the train to stop.
There are no stop and go traffic signals that "L" trains encounter, although traffic signals on adjoining streets are interfaced with the "L" track circuits to go to red or prohibit turns into grade crossings when a train is coming.
Back in the 50's when the Garfield Park ran at street level in Van Buren ST during expressway construction, the "L" did obey traffic signals at each crossing/intersection.
At all crossings there is a flashing wayside signal that tells motormen that the gates are lowering and the flashing turns to steady when the gates are lowered. You will find spare sets of crossing gates along the right-of-way to replace gates taken out by careless motorists. I don't know how often this happens.
David Harrison
I guess you wouldn't say that the tracks are "covered", but they do have extra protection on the Purple line to keep people out with gates versus the rest of the system.
I didn't say that the L had traffic signals that it has to obey, but it did appear on the Doulgas/Cermak Line that there were green lights that turned green when the gates were fully lowered, letting the motorman know when it was o.k. to cross the street. I saw these at a few crossings including Cicero and a few others. I'm just saying this from an oberservation a few weeks ago. I did also see the extra gates between the tracks.
A question I do have is, how do they lower the gates when a train leaves the 54th/Cermak Station?? The train sits just behind the grade crossing as it boards at the station. When it leaves, it almost immediately enters the crossing. Does the motorman have to communicate with the tower for them to lower the gates?? It seemed like last time I rode that they lowered the gates and then the train left 54th for Downtown & O'hare.
BJ
My first guess, not having been out there in a year or so is to say that if no supervisor or towerman is on duty, the crossing signals are linked to the starting light.
In the old days at Jackson Park, both home signals were red over red, outbound on both tracks. When the warning bell for the starting light went off, the automatic interlocking gave the line-up to the last in track.
Cermack/54th could be linked up like that. I'll inquire further and let you know what I find.
David Harrison
Thanks
I also remember that either in the last 2 years or less ( I don't remember excatley when) I saw crews replacing the crossing gates at 54th Street. It seemed like they were doing a large project, like even digging in the ground and using a lot of equipment.
I don't remember excatley when this was, because I just got a quick glimpse. I wasn't there to ride the train, however I was getting chicken at the Churchs Chicken on the actual intersection of 54th/Cermak. As you know, the station is just to the north of it. My grandparents live in Cicero and I love Churchs chicken. Out here in Westmont, we don't have any Churchs nearby. When I visit them, about 50 percent of the time they sent me to get Churchs since they know I like it. I usually also get a glimpse of a train entering or leaving the station when I am in the Churchs parking lot. It stinks that when you have to wait for chicken (sometimes 10 min.) you can't see the crossing unless you walk to the other side of the restuarant away from the counter where you wait for the food.
I just though this might help with finding out, since they just replaced the crossing equipment. It could just be the same technolgy though, just replacing it when it gets old.
BJ
Did verify that the crossing signals work with the old technology. The starting light, either in automatic mode or keyed from the tower/platform supervisor lays in the lineup which triggers the crossing gates.
Main line railroads also have circuitry which also allows the train to stop and wait just short of a crossing without activating the bells and gates.
Now you know that its 54th AV and not street! You'll get the Easterners all confused. The numbered avenues go north and south and the numbered streets go east and west, except that there aren't any numbered avenues in Chicago proper.
And the inbetween numbered streets going east and west are called "Place" and those inbetween north and south numbered avenues are called "Court." (Smile)! They all just ran for their street maps to figure "what 'n hell they talkin' about."
David Harrison
Actually, the north-south streets in Chicago west of Pulaski, (nee Crawford, nee 40th Ave.) WERE numbered prior to 1913. The Town of Cicero (which shares Chicago's numbering system as do many southwest and south suburbs) retained most of the north-south numbered streets.
I didn't realize Pulaski was also known as 40th Ave., although I know it becomes Crawford outside the city limits.
In Chicago Surface Lines byAlan R. Lind there are three pages of street name changes only related to route or terminal streets. As with other large areas, street names are fluid. A 'complete' Chicago concordance would be tasty. David C, David H. ??
A large one is available in _Streetwise Chicago_ by Don Hayner and Tom McNamee. I'll email that to you if you want- be prepared to wait.
Majorish ones are:
King Drive used to be South Parkway used to be Grand Ave
Polk -8th
Taylor - 10th
Roosevelt - 12nd Street
Cermak -22nd St.
Pershing - 39th St.
Garfield -55th St.
Marquette -67th St.
Laramie-52nd Av.
Central 56th Av.
Narragansett - 64th Av.
Damen- Robey
Webster - Humboldt
Armitage- Center
Racine -Centre (!)
Grand - Indiana
Wabash north of the river - Cass
Michigan north of the river -Pine
Wells -5th Avenue
Fifth Ave - Colorado This weird street traverses a short diagonal from nowhere to nowhere on the west side.
The Street numbering system that Cicero uses can be quite confusing, even to natives.
My grandparents always just say 54th or 22nd (when refering to 54th Avenue and Cermak Road/22nd Street)!! Same thing with my parents that grew up in Cicero.
I know the town pretty well and pretty much think of the numbered streets as the North-South Running streets. This would probably be because of the courts. Like 54th, it has an Avenue and a court.
My grandparents do live on a East-West running street, 32nd street, though, and we just usually call it 32nd.
Being from the area, I generally think of Cicero as numbered North-South Running Streets and Chicago as numbered East-West Running Streets South of Roosevelt Road/12th Street.
Many people think this way because more of the opposite running Streets in these cases have Names rather then just numerical value.
I would rather they just gave all the streets names. If you tell some one to meet you at Belmont & Sheffield in Chicago, there is only one place. Belmont & Sheffield just west of the Elevated Red/Brown/Purple Line's Belmont Street Station.
If you wanted to get real technical though, the CTA could help, Belmont is 3200 North as stated in the Station, so techinically it is Northern 32nd Street.
Sorry to babble so much, let's get back to the transit stuff!!
BJ
Received an e-mail query about the bunch of Chicago streets beginning with the letter "K". The next bunch have a first letter "L"; then "M" and so on. Writer asked why start with "K" and was "A-J" ever used?
Naming streets alphabetically is called rotation, and yes Chicago uses "A-J". If you remember H.S. history you know Chcago is in the old NW Territory, and likewise is divided up into square miles called sections. We have busy streets on most of those section and half section lines, a mile and a half mile apart (8 blocks to the mile).
Starting at the state line, our city planners in their wisdom assigned "A" to streets in the first mile, "B" to the second mile, "C", then "D", and so on. Only problem was that most of the streets were already named. They only got their rotation letter in cases where new streets were created or where old names were dropped.
In the first mile, plenty of "Avenue" streets: Avenue B, Avenue D, Avenue F, etc. In the 2nd mile, Baker, Baltimore, Bensley. 3rd mile you have Chappel, Colfax, Clyde, etc.
Between Stony Island and Cottage Grove you'll find Dorchester, Dante, or Drexel. Where does Evans, Eberhart, Edbrooke lie? Right, the mile between Cottage and State.
When they reached Pulaski, 40 blocks west of State or 4000 west, they could name them all, and did so all the way to the city limits.
Now here is a street trivia for New Yorkers. I say that there is not one street in New York that runs north and south EXACTLY. Maybe a short one in Brooklyn, but thats all.
David Harrison
What do you mean EXACTLY? +/- 1 degree, 1 minute, 1 second?
Which north, geographic or magnetic?
"Exactly" means exactly north...geographical north as best as the surveyors could do it.
What I am pointing out here is that most New Yorkers I've talked too, for instance, believe the streets in Manhattan like Third, Americas, Madison, Lenox, etc, go north and south. But they actually don't, exactly.
David Harrison
New Yorkers don't call any street Avenue of the Americas, regardless of whether it goes north, south, up, down, in or out.
Now here is a street trivia for New Yorkers. I say that there is not one street in New York that runs
north and south EXACTLY. Maybe a short one in Brooklyn, but thats all.
The Bronx has a whole section that is on a true N/S and E/W alignment, or remarkably close to it. There is even part of a subway line (an elevated part) that runs on this alignment. I am talking about the section of the #2 line that runs from a bit north of Bronx Park East station to a bit south of Gun Hill Rd. Take a look on a street map, it looks like due north-and-south to me.
Streets parallel to WPR folow the same alignment, extending to 7 blocks east of WPR on the south side of Pelham Parkway, and a lot more than that on the north side.
What is the WPR?
David Harrison
What is the WPR?
White Plains Road. The 2 train travels above it on the way to its terminal at 241st Street.
The numbered avenues go north and south and the numbered streets go east and west, except that there
aren't any numbered avenues in Chicago proper.
And the inbetween numbered streets going east and west are called "Place" and those inbetween north and south numbered avenues are called "Court." (Smile)!
This sounds remarkably similar to the system used in Queens (NYC). Was the Queens plan based on the Chicago system? Does Chicago use, or did it ever use, hyphenated house numbers like those in Queens (e.g. 134-12 22nd St. would be between 134th and 135th Avenues)?
No, our numbers aren't hyphenated. The address would be 13412 22nd ST. It would be read one hundred thirty four twelve Twenty Second Street. Although we don't hyphenate the number, it is read as if it is hyphenated.
How far "south" would this be? You would be one hundred thirty four hundred south.
Why "south?" That's the only side of Chicago that goes as far as a "134th ST."
On the north, west, and east sides, the named streets also have a numerical value that shows the house numbers. Pulaski Road is 4000 W (forty hundred west) means 40 blocks west of the dividing line (State ST). Rooosevelt Road is 1200 S, Howard Street is 7600 N, Stony Island is 1600 E(12 hundred, 76 hundred, 16 hundred).
Nice what you can do when your streets are laid out in straight lines.
David Harrison
Denver has a similar north-south grid system except for downtown, where streets are in a diagonal northwest-southeast grid. Broadway divides east and west while Ellsworth Ave. divides north and south.
Spoke to Mike Wolf owner of MTH trains about the R-32 cars at the TCA York Meet. He said that the shortest radius these cars will run on will most likely be a 042 curve.He said this is due to the side skirting of the car.Also the route N sign will be hard to change. MTH will not make additional route signs for these cars.Also there should be additional add-on cars for the R-32's. Another MTH person said that the R-21 cars will be out by the end of the year.
Have Fun.
Ron J.
Yesterday a engineer of a Port Jefferson bound disel did not blow his horn at the grade crossing at stony brook. Is this a violation of FRA rules? Its a pedestian crossing and not a
automotive grade crossing.
Pedestrian crossings do not count as a pedestrian presents no real threat to a train. They are only required to blow their horns at all public grade crossings. Some industrial and private crossings may be exempt at certain times.
Does this not apply to rapid transit? The CTA almost never blows their
horn at grade crossings (except on the Skokie Swift high speed line).
The horn rule is an FRA guideline and Transit Systems (unfortinitly) are not considered railroads and are not bound by the FRA's intelligent rules and regulations. Hopefully sometime soon the legislature will close this loop hole and bring transit systems up to snuff.
Yeah, lets spend millions retrofitting our ancient rolling stock with all that FRA required BS. PATH's new car order is being delayed because of the costs required for all the extra stuff needed.
All that extra stuff is there for YOUR safety! Appriciate it.
Yeah, right. Transit cars are built to withstand impact from the most likely source: other transit cars. An SD90MAC is not likely to collide with an R68; therefore it makes little sense to prepare it for such. Please provide the number of persons killed in transit collisions in the last 10 years (that do not include fire, a separate problem that the FRA does not address), and compare it to the last 10 years of Amtrak deaths (exclude the Sunset wreck in the Louisiana Bayou; again, FRA compliance makes no difference when the car is under water)
You'll see that transit cars are more than safe enough.
-Hank
you sound a little like "i'm from the government and i'm here to help"
San Jose VTA light rail system: no horn blowing except in emergency.
Portland MAX: some operators do, most don't
Sacramento RT: no horn blowing except in emergency (lots of bell ringing for crossings, on private r-o-w, though!)
San Diego Trolley: on the private r-o-w sections, they sound the "horn" which is more like a door buzzer. They have a bigger horn (that still isn't worth a shit) and some operators use that. On the street-running stretches, they only sound the "buzzer" horn two short toots when starting from a station; you might hear the bigger horn occasionally when some cluck in a car cuts the trolley off!
The horn is not there to benefit the train; it is there to benefit the person who will get in front of it. Not much presents a danger to a train. It took a trailer load of steel to cause a serious problem.
-Hank
AFAIK, RRs are required to blow their horn for all grade crossings, regardless, with the exception of crossings that are flagged by personnel (manned crossing) Some municipalities have passed laws that bar the practice, but a backlash is brewing on the subject, and the Feds are interveneing. A federal order that will overrule the local decisions is likely in the near future.
-Hank
I have been asked repeatedly whether there is any bad blood between #1 Brighton Beach Bob and me. NO THERE IS NOT! We ride each other real good but we are friends. Old railfanners know of our bantering, but some of the newcomers think the rivalry is for real. He's a Democrat, I'm a Republican, he's a New Yorker, I'm a Californian, he loves the Yankees, I love the Mets, etc. We agree on little but he is my pal.
By the way, he is not #1 Brighton Beach Bob, but rather #1 Brighton Exp. Bob. (I think you are jealous because the Brighton has expresses).
And the Brighton has a better ROW overall....:-)
BMTman
And your Brighton-Sea Beach debates leave me ROTFLMAO.:-)
has anyone seen the new metrorail cars yet? i heard theyr supposed to be out. if anyone has any kind of info on these cars, please tell me.
i also have a website on mass transit at geocities.com/ckder_buses
They are on WMATA property but haven't entered service. There will be at least 26 cars in service (13 pairs) by January 13, 2001.
do u know where they are currently located?
They showed them to the media at Greenbelt Yard and are probably still there since they will first run on the Green Line.
These are the CAF, correct? Do they look like the rest of the Metro Fleet? ( I would guess they do ) - AND - Unit numbers: 5000 series?
(I would guess so, but you never know)
thanks
wayne
Yes they are the 5000's and on the outside they look like normal WMATA cars (IMHO a mistake). The insides will be different.
I just got the official bulletin:
On Friday 11-10-2000 we will be running on a Sunday Schedule.
That means:
1- If a booth is closed on Sunday then it will be closed on 11-10.
2- If a line does not run SUndays then it will not run 11-10-2000
Huh? Is 11/10 some sort of national holiday? I never have Veteran's day off ...
Veterans' Day is a Federal holiday. It is usually celebrated on
November 11. But if November 11 falls on a Saturday, the Federal
holiday moves to Friday. If it falls on a Sunday, it is celebrated
on Monday. Just like July 4th, Christmas, and New Years Day.
Even though some businesses remain open, there will be no mail delivery, etc. And most transit systems are on some kind of modified schedule.
Some businesses choose to have employees work that day, in exchange for a company holiday on the Friday after Thanksgiving. And since that's not a Federal holiday, it's an opportunity for us out-of-town subway fans to ride weekday services.
Thanks. Veteran's day has always had weekday services run on the subway system. Since Wall St. and the schools are open on 11/10, I'm sure glad they do. I'm not sure what subway-buff was talking about in his original post.
It is probably treated as a holiday in the TA Station dept. while treated as a weekday in Rapid Transit Operations.
Actually, I think there will be mail delivery on Friday, because mail carriers normally work on Saturdays and will have Saturday the real Veterans' Day off. Same with banks; they will be open on Friday because they normally do business on Saturday and will close then.
Here's the "official word" from the USPS Web site:
Veterans Day, November 11, is the only movable holiday in the group of holidays designated as not widely observed; the other three holidays listed in section B are always observed on Mondays. When Veterans Day falls on any day except Sunday, the services provided on that holiday are the same as those shown for Monday. When Veterans Day falls on Sunday, the service levels are the same as those shown for Sunday; the USPS, however, observes the holiday on Monday and treats it as a Monday holiday.
Whew! So it appears as though Carl is correct. And as our NYCTA friends have told us, the system is on a hybrid schedule, with some departmens thinking it's a regular workday, others not. And so it goes.
Since when was Veterans Day postponed if it fell on a weekend?
To the best of my knowledge, the 10th of November (a Friday) will be a normal business day, and schools will be open.
This is a horrible year for fall holidays.
Both days of Rosh Hashana fell on a weekend
Yom Kippur and Columbus Day fell on the same day
and now Veterans Day falls on a Saturday.
Not that it matters, but what day is Christmas this year?
Christmas is a Monday this year.
My mother is pissed off this year, as she got screwed out of both Jewish holidays and now Veterans Day.
Technically, Columbus Day did not fall on the same day as Yom Kippur. Yom Kippur was October 9th this year, while Columbus Day is always October 12th. However, I guess that doesn't really matter, since we celebrated Columbus Day on Monday the 9th anyway. I'm just pointing that out, since some people tend to forget that Columbus Day actually usually falls on a different day than we celebrate it.
- Lyle Goldman
Too bad... I expect to be in NYC and was hoping to ride some
weekday-only trains.
I don't believe anything but a normal weekday service schedule will be running on 11/10/00.
Unfortunately, for Veterans Day, different "arms" in the Dept. of Subways seem to be doing their own thing. And it really shouldn't be. Are you listening Joe Hoffman? Subway Buff knows what is going on in Station Dept. I remember last Veterans Day that, eventhough all subway lines were running on regular weekday schedules, the booth at the north end of 34/8 on the northbound C/E platform (the one which is currently closed for renovation) was closed that day. Let it be known that all subway lines will be running regular weekday schedules on Fri. 11/10/00 and regular Saturday schedules on 11/11/00. Both days are regular days for everyone involved in the operation of the trains.
I've never heard of "Veterans" day, but 11/11 (11:00) is Armistice day. Its one of several military holidays I celebrate. Traditionally every person must choose one confilct in their life and end it by 11AM.
On a Subway note I realize that Armistice Day is a pretty majour holiday, but why does it warrent a Sunday schedual? All trains being held in their stations from 10:59 to 11:01 would by much more appropiate.
Normal weekday schedules have always run on Vete....er, Armistace day. ot sure what subway-buff meant by her original post.
What planet have you been hiding out on, Mike? The November 11 Federal Holiday was to remember the Armistice that ended the Great War. It was renamed by Congress to honor all America's veterans of all the wars in 1954.
Veterans already have 2 other days where they can be remembered. While I am not saying that they should not be honoured, the Great War is often forgotten by the general public. I am trying to raise awareness of the terrible tragity that was the Great War and to promote Nov 11 as an international day of peace. I think that Veterans should be acknowledged in a theme week. I hope that nobody forgets the other majour military holidays. Dec 7th (Pearl harbour), May c.12th (VE Day), June 6th (D-Day), June 21st (Operation Barbarossa Day), July 1-3 (Gettysburg Fest) and Aug 6 (Atomic Bomb Day).
While I understand that we should honor those who served in WWI (including my paternal grandfather), I don't think we need to have a seperate holiday for it. In all reality, American military involvement, short of naval action, lasted for 5 months, tops.
BTW, none of the "holidays" you mentioned are actual holidays. Gettysburg fest? Sounds like some sort of local town fair, for crying out loud.
They are important dates for Modern History buffs like railfans celebrate the opening day on the IRT and whatnot.
>>> I am trying to raise awareness of the terrible tragity that was the Great War and to promote Nov 11 as an international day of peace. <<<
Armistice Day was changed to Veterans' Day by an embarrassed Congress in 1954. WWI was supposed to be the "War to End All Wars" and the "War to Make the World Safe for Democracy." That is why the date of the armistice was such a big deal and made a national holiday. The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier was also supposed to mark sacrifice made for the ending of war forever.
By 1954 after the Spanish Civil War, WWII, Korea, and with SAC bombers in the air on a twenty-four hour ready alert, and school children practicing "duck and cover" it became clear that the end of WWI did not live up to earlier expectations. There was pressure from veterans' groups to make VJ day, and the date of the armistice in Korea holidays also. Business interests did not want new paid holidays, so Congress declared that November 11th would honor all veterans of all wars (Memorial Day honoring war dead only), rather than the end of one war and increased the number of Tombs of Unknown Soldiers.
Tom
P.S. What are the other two holidays honoring veterans?
Memorial Day and Armed Forces Day both indirectly honour veterans.
I'm not sure what veteran's holidays Jersey Mike was referring to, but some other U.S. patriotic days include: Armed Forces Day (May 20) and Flag Day (June 14). Flag Day is most likely not a veteran holiday , but Armed Forces Day and Memorial Day (which you mentioned) come closer to the mark.
>>> Armed Forces Day and Memorial Day (which you mentioned) come closer to the mark. <<<
Mike confirmed just before your post that these were indeed the holidays that he meant. However, Armed Forces Day honors the active military rather than veterans, and I don't think it is a take off work type holiday anywhere except in towns dependant on military installations, and Memorial Day honors those armed forces members who were unfortunate enough never to obtain the status of veteran.
Tom
I think that only Veterans should be allowed of for Armistice Day. Its just another frivilous holiday. Most places are smart to move the Armistice day off over to Black Friday and MLK day off over to Presidents Weekend. That way uou can get 4 day weekends and what's more American than a 4 day wekend.
A five day weekend!
avid
Well "American" means to balance hard work with kick ass good times. I believe that we're not a nation of slackers so a 5 day weekend would be un-American.
Armistice Day [is] just another frivolous holiday.
I'll disagree. Veterans' Day is in honor of those who served their country and were fortunate enough to have survived the experience - the men and women who were willing to make the supreme sacrifice for the rest of us in the name of freedom, but who did come home to America. Like Memorial Day, honoring those who gave their lives for this country, it is a very important holiday. In my opinion, we should celebrate only four national holidays in this country; Veterans' Day and Memorial Day, plus Thanksgiving and Independence Day. The others are all minor or religious; the minor ones should be abolished and the religious ones should be left to those who practice that particular religion, and not imposed on people who don't.
(BTW, I'm not a veteran myself, having been awarded 4-F status by Uncle Sam when I registered for the draft many years ago, but I do have many family members who have served their country proudly, including my older daughter and her husband, and my older son, who is in Navy ROTC at the present time.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
we should celebrate only four national holidays in this country; Veterans' Day and Memorial Day, plus Thanksgiving and
Independence Day. The others are all minor or religious;
Actually, this is not true. First of all, thanksgiving can also be said to have religious connotations since the European settlers it involved belonged primarily ( if not all)to one sect of Puritans from England. Remembrer that relgious persecution was a very significant incentive in the early formation of a number of American colonies. And these involved Protestant sects from many quarters, and Catholics and Quakers (some people claim Quakers are not Protestants - reason unknown to me) as well.
Second, there are a number of other holidays that most definitely are not "minor" and should be national. Election Day (remember that in a republic nothing is more sacred than the election, however bought it might be) is one. New Years - is not just a religious holiday. You celebrate your birthday every year - don't you? Martin Luther King's day - forget politics: let's face it - this country has few other MODERN (20th century) figures of NON-violent struggle against truly heinous adversity.
I'll give you Columbus Day - its hisotrical/national significance really is questionable because (as everyone knows) the Vikings got here before he did (never mind the Native AMericans), and Amerigo Vespucci (hence "America") had much more (initially) influence in the European exploration of the Americas at that time.
Thanksgiving is a general national day of thanks - I certainly don't consider it religious in nature, at least not to a specific religion. Yes, the early settlers gave thanks according to the dictates of their faith, but I (a Jew) celebrate the day with equal fervor.
Election Day? Important, yes, but a holiday, no. It doesn't take all day to vote. New Year's? Just another day on the calendar for me. When I celebrate a new year it's according to the calendar of my faith - not the calendar of another - and I call it Rosh Hashanah. And don't get me started on MLK day. I may be strongly committed to many of the ideals that King expressed, but I disagree strongly with creating a holiday for him.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Its a frivilious holiday in that non-veterans get off for it. This should be the day where veterans get a day and everyone else gets to work.
We should also celebrate a 4 day Presidents Weekend (so people can go sking) and Labour Day. The Summer needs an opening and closing holiday. One last hurah before the kids go back to school and you have to get that darned rake out of the car hole.
It's car hold, Homer.
>>> Its a frivilious holiday in that non-veterans get off for it. This should be the day where veterans get a day and everyone else gets to work. <<<
With that type of thinking, only Jesus Christ should get the day off on December 25th.
Tom
Christmas is a celebration that includes many activities that require a day off. Families get together, you go to church, exchange gifts, etc. On Memorial Day you attend parades, memorial services, etc. On Veterans Day, most people who are not Veterans have nothing to do and just spend the day sitting at home watching TV. Probably the only people who do anything are Veterans and their various Veteran organizations. What better way chould be honour our Veterans than to give them a day off when everything will be open and working so that they can fully enjoy the fruits of their services with people with who they share the experiance of military service
Christmas is a celebration that includes many activities that require a day off. Families get together, you go to church, exchange gifts, etc.
You're forgetting one thing, Mike - it's a day when Christian families get together, go to church, exchange gifts, etc. For the rest of us it's just another day on the calendar. IMHO, having it as a government holiday violates the generally accepted interpretation of the constitutional principle of separation of church and state.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> having [Christmas] as a government holiday violates the generally accepted interpretation of the constitutional principle of separation of church and state. <<<
Since the holiday is generally accepted, it obviously does not violate the generally accepted interpretation of the constitutional principle of separation of church and state. :-)
I think it is fair to say that now this is a commercial holiday celebrating conspicuous consumption and the indulgence of children which coincides with the Christian holiday. Fifty years ago, there was blatant public support of the Christian holiday with municipal nativity scenes and other religious references. Now governments tend to limit their decorations to the neutral "Seasons Greetings" and promoting the Coca Cola version of Santa Claus.
Tom
>>> What better way chould be honour our Veterans than to give them a day off when everything will be open and working so that they can fully enjoy the fruits of their services with people with who they share the experiance of military service <<<
Mike;
In spite of your usually intelligent posts to this board, at times you seem to have a blind spot when it comes to common sense. Congress does not create a national holiday in order to give some segment of the country (i.e. veterans) a day off from work. A national holiday is declared in honor of a person or event so important that Congress believes the whole country should pause in its routine commerce to honor that person or event. The fact that some citizens think of a holiday as just an extra day to go fishing or shopping is a reflection of the openness of our society. In a more totalitarian society there would be massive demonstrations which all citizens would be expected to attend to mark the holidays.
Congress has provided for veterans in a more important way than a day off. I know I used the G.I. Bill to pay some of my college expenses, certain civil service jobs give a preference to veterans, and the Veterans Administration provides medical services to veterans in need and burial in a national cemetery.
How Veterans's Day evolved from Armistice Day is discussed earlier in this thread. I think it is doubtful that Congress would have made a holiday to celebrate veterans without Armistice Day already being in place.
The overwhelming majority of veterans since 1945 have not been in direct combat, and for those drafted or doing one enlistment (without combat) like myself, the military was an interesting broadening transition from adolescence to adulthood, but a relatively minor period after high school, lasting no longer than four years in college. Although I am eligible for membership in the Heros' Union (American Legion), I have never considered joining, because I do not consider being a veteran that important a part of my life. I suspect this is true of most other veterans except those who made a career of the military or suffered a traumatic experience in the military.
Tom
Actually, December 7th is Pearl Harbor Day, not Pearl Harbour Day. For God's sake, you're American! Learn the language already!
- Lyle Goldman
Well excuse me for trying to add a little bit of class to our pedestrian language.
Well, if you're so classy, then speak French.
Then eat snails, frogs and eels like the French.
And use the Metric system, like the French!
Metric certainly has advantages. Sure beats meauring velocity in furlongs per fortnight.
No! International Cable Legnths per Ionian Day.
http://www.frivolity.com/teatime/Science_and_Math/c.txt
Thanks for that table. Hmm....yards per year. Now is that better than metric?
The French aren't classy, they're just dirty.
You mean NYCT will operate a Sunday schedule??
That's weird, because I think it's a regular weekday schedule for Long Island Bus.
The same thing can happen here in Boston.
On Columbus Day, the MBTA Commuter Rail was on a regular weekday schedule. But the MBTA rapid transit lines were on a Saturday schedule (and waaaaaay mobbed).
Veteran's Day has always been a regular weekday for the subway system. Usually, the LIRR and Metro North begin the PM rush earlier, though.
It is a regular weekday schedule on the trains.
But in the Station Department and other TA departments it's a holiday. However, all departments get full holiday pay(equivalent to double time for first 8 hours of tour).
They are running a Sunday Schedule???
I didn't pick any Sunday job for Veterans Day. Maybe it will be a Modified Weekday Schedule.
Stations will be on a Sunday schedule. Sorry I did not specify "STations"
JUst a question for some of you tech folk. NOw everyone knows that the third rail carries the outgoing current. In the NYC system one of the track rails is used to carry the return current. Which one is it and why then can't you be electrocuted by walking on the track rails. There's probably a simple answer for this, but I don't know.
Because the running rails are at ground potential and so are
you.
>>> why then can't you be electrocuted by walking on the track rails <<<
Think of it like a car battery which is also DC but 12 volts instead of 600 volts. If you look at a car battery you will see that one terminal (-) is attached to the frame of the car. That is the ground cable. You can touch the frame of the car without getting a shock. In a similar manner, you can walk on the running rails of an electric railroad without getting a shock.
The other cable on an automobile battery (+) will give you a jolt if you touch it while also touching the car body. This is because of the voltage differential between the that terminal and ground. If however, you first remove the negative cable from the (-) battery post, you can touch the positive terminal without getting a shock because there is no longer a connection from the battery to ground.
In theory (don't try this at home kids), you could walk along balanced on the third rail of a subway barefoot without getting a shock as long as no part of your body touched (or came very close to) a grounded surface.
Tom
another example is the birds who perch on power lines
there have been lots of cases of power lines which have been shorted by birds with wide wingspans. personally, i prefer roasted to fried.
Thanks!
I was once in an Amtrak train that was delayed five minutes at Baltimore because a pigeon shorted out the overhead wire thus blowing a breaker. The pigeon exploded... feathers came raining down. Very amusing (except to the pigeon)
Bill
Does anyone know if NYCT is building a free transfer between the G & the #7 train at the Court Sq/Courthouse Sq Stations in Queens & if so, when will this free transfer open.
Yes. They will. When it will open is unknown.
Arti
Could somebody explain to me if the R32 Trains of the "C" line will remain on that line until 2015 or will they have to give it up to another line? Also will the R62A on the #1/9 lines will stay their until they retire?
I think the R62As will stay on the 1/9 Line till they retire or until the TA buys new cars that have he same door demensions and positions on the car because the South Ferry Gap Fillers were rebuilt for the R62As. Since the R62As can run there, I'm guessing the R62s can run there too. I'm not sure about the R142s nor R142As. But, if the Union Square Gap Fillers can take any car, why can't the ones at South Ferry?
running on...
The gap fillers at Union Sq. aren't lined up to the doors of the train. They are just placed at fixed distances and open up reguardless of where the train doors are.
Why is the B terminating at Bay Parkway???
There is a General Order in effect this weekend. Buses replace B train service between Bay Pkwy and C.I.
Last night during rush hour, I was on a NYC bound Harlem Line train. We had a sick passenger (actually a guy passed out in my car). Anyway, at 125 they told us to leave the train and another train would pick us up shortly. Well about 30 seconds later another train pulls up across the platform and takes us to Grand Central.
I recently left my job in Manhattan and now travel to white plains every day. As an often rider of the LIRR, MN is distincly better.
its a fact that MN is better. LIRR is always late and their trains break down all the time. including their double decker diesels.
Awhile back, I brought up the subject of the appearance of the LIRR's MU's by comparison to those on the Metro North. I was told that the LIRR does not have a paint shop and due to problems with grafitti, it's better to leave them as they are. Well what's Metro North's Secret? The on time issue is one thing, but Metro North currently has some 200 plus MU's less than that of the LIRR(it's a smaller railroad compared to the LIRR), however their MU Cars look much better and they are sporting what's called the Pacman and Zebra Stripe paint scheme on the cab ends. The LIRR ought to take some lessons from the Metro North.
All they had to do was call Mott Haven yard or flag down one of the many dead-head trains that WERE GOING TO GCT ANYWAY.
All they had to do was call Mott Haven yard
If Mott Haven is the one where the split occurs between Hudson/Harlem and New Haven, there is rarely a train laid up waiting to go.
Its there a big storage yard there at the Junction. At least there was in New York Central days. Mott Haven was the Sunnyside for Grand Central Terminal. Someone told me it was still there so I would expect that in the evening rush you would see a parade of lite engine moves heading south into GCT.
I go by there every night and very rarely will see even 1 train sitting. Most the the year is either empty or has work equipment.
Would you still be saying MetroNorth is better if the sick passenger was at one of those Harlem line 2 track stations in which the railroad would have been stopped completely and you couldn't get on another train across the platform because: (a) you would have to cross over downstairs to the other platform or more likely (b) MNCRR couldn't run around since trains were operating in the opposing direction on the other track? At least at 125 St. you have the operational flexibility, many other stations you don't.
MN is most definitely a better RR than the LIRR, it never ceases to amaze me that the 2 railroads come under the same parent yet, they are distinctly different. MN is a laegacy of the transit professional Peter Stangl, he deserves the credit for MN being what it is today.
Peace,
ANDEE
A lot of things are better than the LIRR.
It's depressing, though. The LIRR and Metro-North are both part of the MTA. They both primarily use the same "MU" series trains. I know the LIRR is a larger operation, but jeez! What the #@$% are they doing differently that makes MNR so much better? It runs with far less delays. The trains have noticeably better travel times (I noticed that it was only a little longer from NYC to Poughkeepsie than from NYC to Lindenhurst!) Metro-North even looks better. Does this all have anything to do with the rich Westchester and Connecticut clientel?
Maybe the solution is to merge the whole thing into one mega railroad. I wonder whether Metro-North's competence would rub off on the LIRR or the LIRR would simply drag MNR down.
How about a hostile takeover of LIRR by MN
[(I noticed that it was only a little longer from NYC to Poughkeepsie than from NYC to Lindenhurst!)]
Wow! That does not bode well for the LIRR. I mean, Poughkeepsie is considerably further away from NYC than Lindenhurst is. Plus, both services operate express for part of their routes. And Lindenhurst is in electric territory, while Poughkeepsie isn't. Something's wrong here.
Recently I've been checking out pictures of all the NYC Subway Car Types old and new/past and present. During the years that I grew up in NYC(Sept 7th 1969 to July 21st 1980), I always knew the line assignments of all the subway cars. I know there have been many changes in line assignments since then and even during the time that I grew up in NYC. For me the pictures of the Subway Car Roster isn't enough info. Is there anyone out there who would be kind enough to tell me what is the current subway car line assignments. Thank You.
Check the faq. The 1998 list which is the most recent I have is still pretty close to the current situation.
minus R110B-C,R142-2,R142A-6
Here's a rough list. The car types will be listed in order of the largest percentage of each line:
B division:
A: R44/R38/R32
B: R68A
C: R32/R38
D: R68
E: R32/R46
F: R46
G: R46
J: R42/R40M
L: R40S/R40M/R42
M: R42/R40M
N: R68/R32/R40S
Q: R40S
R: R46/R32
S: R68
A division:
1: R62A
2: R33/R29
3: R62A
4: R62/R33/R36
5: R26/R28/R29
6: R62/R33/R36
7: R36WF/R33S
9: R62A
S: R62A (singles only)
Hope that helps. Check the FAQ for more exact assignments. The list is somewhat outdated, but it's still fairly accurate.
There are no R36 cars on any other line. Oly the 6 & 7 have these cars.
Some R36 mainline cars have run on the 4 within the past 12 months. I've seen them myself.
Agreed, I've been on them.
Peace,
ANDEE
The 5 has 2 trains of R-62a, and 2 trains of R-33s assigned to it (these are always the same trains). I assume you are ruling out rush-hour only situations, which include:
R-68 B, R-26/28/29 2.
On weekend afternoons the B gets a few slants and the D gets some R-68As, often with most of the signs set to "Bedford Park Blvd" as the northern dest.
My list was general in content. There are, of course, some assignments too minor to be mentioned in such a list.
MTA has posted special transit information for the parade on Monday.
Thanks for the information, Todd. I will be on the Canyon of Heroes early Monday morning!! -Nick
For years I've always wondered why the Metro North's and LIRR's M1 & M3 MU's have what looks like a skirt attached to the bottom of the cab ends. The Metro North's M2/M4 and M6's MUs don't have this skirt. Can anyone tell me the proper name for this skirt and it's intended purpose? Also why are the M2/M4 and M6 MUs referred to as "Cosmopolitans"? Thank You.
"Also why are the M2/M4 and M6 MUs referred to as 'Cosmopolitans?'"
Because they can run on two types of power.
Thank you Pork for answering at least part of my last question.
That 'skirt' is a snowplow. You'll see them on locomotives as well.
-Hank
Thanks Hank, I remember that on old steam locomotives they used to refer to this same device as a "COWCATCHER". My guess is that even in modern times this skirt or cowcatcher is supposed to perform the function of clearing debris and or snow on the rails in front of a train. Thanks again.
A COWCATCHER is not a sno-plow. All train have a PILOT. Attached to the PILOT can be a COWCATCHER or a SNOPLOW. Cowcatchers stick way our and are not solid metal. They are meant to nudge obstructions off the tracks. Snoplows are solid metal and are much more perpendicular to the tracks. There is also a curved portion at the top to fling snow aside. A plain Pilot (or drawbar) just acts as a bumper does on a car.
Thank you very much Dave Pirmann, Chris R16 and Tom R36 for the info.
This is like a holloween costume
http://www.geocities.com/mellowone_99/UPsturbine.jpg
Tell me that's not a GG1 disguised as a City of San Francisco Diesel unit from the '30s.
actually the guts are closer to a Little Joe, IIRC.
Yea, or a Milwaukee Road Big Joe,
but I think this unit predates the Joes.
That guide truck sure looks like the ones on the GG1s,
Maybe the running gear is more like the New haven EP4,s of that era?
Looks like an early E unit, maybe an E-2 or E-3. IIRC, the running gear of the NH EP-3 was the model upon which the running gear for the GG1 was based.
And misguided NYC fans claim that the EP-3 was based on the CUT P motors of the same arrangement.
I don't want to get into a political debate on off topic issues. And you can't help but notice how little the candidates have said about transit. With the suburbs ascendent and cities dirt because they are full of minorities who are themselves treated like dirt -- hated by one side, taken for granted by the other -- no one is going to be GOOD for transit. But with an election coming up, however, it is worth asking who would be WORSE.
I'd have to say Bush would be worse for transit. An oilman is less likely to be concerned with its energy-saving aspects than an environmentalist. Gore's Democrats would probably not want to invest in intrastructure, period, but they'll have to spend some money, and anti-sprawl Gore is more likely to want to put it in rail than roads. The result is more likely to be high speed rail between Memphis and Nashville than the Second Avenue Subway, but New York City will get something.
I'd have to say Hillary would be worse for transit. A shrewd politician, she'd show her environmental credentials by financing inexpensive "studies." Her main goal is more money for her backers, the non-profiteers (through higher Medicaid and Social Service grants), and the way to get the rest of the country to go along is through funding formulas the require New York to match federal dollars on a 50-50 basis, while allowing other states to benefit far more from federal money. With still higher state and local taxes anathema, the infrastructure -- which no politician in this "fleece and flee" state cares about -- is likely to suffer.
The nightmare -- a Bush presidency, Hillary in the Senate. It could happen.
I don't want to get into a political debate on off topic issues. And you can't help but notice how little the candidates have said about transit. With the suburbs ascendent and cities dirt because they are full of minorities who are themselves treated like dirt -- hated by one side, taken for granted by the other -- no one is going to be GOOD for transit. But with an election coming up, however, it is worth
asking who would be WORSE.
I'd have to say Bush would be worse for transit. An oilman is less likely to be concerned with its energy-saving aspects than an environmentalist. Gore's Democrats would probably not want to invest
in intrastructure, period, but they'll have to spend some money, and anti-sprawl Gore is more likely to want to put it in rail than roads. The result is more likely to be high speed rail between Memphis and
Nashville than the Second Avenue Subway, but New York City will get something.
And you are surprised that neither candidate is concerned about transit and other New York issues? City residents who wonder why can get the answer in the nearest mirror. Republicans have nothing but contempt for NYC because they haven't a snowball's chance of getting more than a tiny number of votes. And the Democrats? Why, they could nominate a dead opossum and it'll score a smashing victory east of the Hudson. Why waste time on a place that'll support you in the finest of knee-jerk fashion, no matter what? Oh, and it's not just because of minorities; if we're in NYC, the voting patterns among us Ice People are virtually indistinguishable from those among Sun People.
I'm telling you, if NYC (and cities in general) were politically up for grabs, both parties would be much more concerned about urban issues.
Transit's not a campaign issue because outside of the large cities, it just doesn't matter. It's a boring topic. You say "transit" and voters think transit unions. Petroleum is an issue again and I'd rather have an 'oil man' like Bush than a 'green' like Gore. We either drill for oil in places like Alaska or we will one day go to war over it. What would you rather do? How much oil did the EPA produce this year? I laugh when Gore lambasts "big oil", this from a man with ˝ million shares of Occidental Petroleum. We are a capitalist society, get used to it. You can't boast of a strong economy and then complain about the very same "rich" that the strong economy created. He wants it both ways because he is a liar. Democrats have run NYC mostly for worse over the last 100 years. But they blame everybody else for the messes they have created.
By the way, our local energy crisis is growing in the background, two more communities rejected barge-based floating generators. Get the flashlights out and hope that next summer is a mild one.
Environmentalist overkill will harm everyone. We need somebody in office who can get America producing again, and even out our serious trade defecit. As long as we import more than we export, costs will be higher, especially hurting those of us who have the least.
Last time I checked, there's a Republican in the mayor's office. I've never heard him say anything "contemptuous" about NYC, have you? Obviously, there are both intelligent "Sun People" and discerning "Ice People" in NYC, who evaluate a candidate regardless of party affiliation. Tell me again how the Democrats take the city support for granted?
(Tell me again how the Democrats take the city support for granted?)
They do. Basically, there is a few organized interests they pander to: public employment retirees, the non-profiteers, white seniors, yuppies with kids in "gifted" schools. The rest they pander to with words, screw with deeds -- especially Blacks, Latinos, and immigrants who have the nerve to work. Some of these folks are ineligible to vote, some tend not to vote, some get sucked by a few of their kind who get paid. Are the stupid? Well, the Republicans aren't much of an alternative.
The Democrats are still the party of the tax-eaters, and the Republicans are the party of the taxpayers. The liberals here will cry about "big business" but that's too bad. NYC voters are a masochistic group. The city declined rapidly after World War 2 because we had a succession of backward looking mayors, all Democrats until Republican wonder-boy Lindsay who almost finished the city off. Lindsay then became a Democrat. Now the Rudy era is coming to an end and you can see the liberals candidiates lining up with what basically amounts to a promise to bring back the bad old days of high taxes and high crime rates. I hope I'm wrong but it's beginning to start to look like the past 8 years of NYC growth and low crime were an aberration.
Hey, Dan, Get a brain, Your view is too simplistic, For INTELLIGENT conservative dialog , read some of the other posts on this board
Right JOhn.
Alot of the low-crime rates and economic prosperity that NYC has had for the past several years is largely tied to the overall prosperity of the nation. Just because Rudy is not going to be Mayor anymore does not mean that things will go 180 degrees in the opposite direction.
The police policies that were related to the reductions in crime will most likely remain regardless of who's in power (or we would hope).
And the city's economic prosperity will remain probably so unless the region or the nation as a whole has a downturn in growth.
Right JOhn.
Alot of the low-crime rates and economic prosperity that NYC has had for the past several years is largely tied to the overall prosperity of the nation. Just because Rudy is not going to be Mayor anymore does not mean that things will go 180 degrees in the opposite direction.
The police policies that were related to the reductions in crime will most likely remain regardless of who's in power (or we would hope).
And the city's economic prosperity will remain probably so unless the region or the nation as a whole has a downturn in growth.
This city does not operate in a vaccum.
BMTman
It's better to simplify some things here because the average visitor to this site may not follow politics that much. I'm glad that SubTalk is some kind of an outlet for you.
A large portion of the nation's drop in crime can be attributed to Giuliani, Bratton and Safir. If you take out NYC's decline in crime, the national decline is not as dramatic. NYC Democrats want to tax or regulate everything in their grasp. If you live or work in the city you'll what I mean. With the possible exception of Alan Hevesi the potential Democratic candidates are all of the "Rudy is too tough" mold, particularly regarding the NYPD. The history of NYC just makes me skeptical that the booming Rudy years will continue because we have an electorate that doesn't know what it wants.
Back on topic, I think the biggest threat to the City is probably "white welfare" paid for by city residents and businesses but spent elsewhere. There seems to be a double standard, with "less deserving" City residents expected to be poorer, pay higher taxes, and receive inferior public services while "more deserving" suburban, upstate and Sunbelt residents expect more for less.
For example, look at the $100 million in cash funneled to Nassau County, and the great concern for the economy of Upstate New York which is at its all time employment high while NYC is far below. Look at how awful it is thought to be that former union manufacturing workers who had been getting $14 per hour now get only $10 per hour, while in NYC tens of thousands are forced to work off the books for less than the minimum wage -- with no legally required social security, unemployment insurance, or workman's comp, let alone health insurance.
The era when money was collected AND wasted in the City appears to be over, but we have had few fiscal benefits. It has just led to more money getting sucked out. Hence the transit problem. No one is willing to put money into the City, and with so much sucked out, the City can't afford it either.
NYC and state were absolutely loyal to Clinton, and got nothing. It is absolutely loyal to Gore, and will likely again get nothing, win or lose. Whether Hillary is motivated by personal principles or personal self interest, she is unlikely to sacrifice either to get a better fiscal deal for NYC.
Back on topic, I think the biggest threat to the City is probably "white welfare" paid for by city residents and businesses but spent elsewhere ... For example, look at the $100 million in cash funneled to Nassau County, and the great concern for the economy of Upstate New York which is at its all time employment high while NYC is far below.
I would caution against reading too much into this supposed "concern" for Upstate. Hillary and Lazio gush over the plight of re-engineered factory workers in Buffalo or Utica not because they particularly care about them - they surely don't - but because Upstate looks like it'll be the main swing region in the election. Trust me, come the morning of November 8, no matter who's won, Upstate will be ignored once again.
I have an interesting observation on Upstate. Shortly after noon yesterday, returning from a quick trip to Ohio*, I drove on the approximately 25-mile segment of I-86 (the "Southern Tier Expressway, formerly NY-17) between the Pennsylvania border and Jamestown. It was one of the more scenic stretches of Interstate I've seen, with picturesque farms and gently rolling terrain, but also was almost entirely deserted. I didn't see more than ten vehicles in both directions. It seems to me that traffic would've been heavier if Upstate's economy were better.
* = if you want to see a really bedraggled city, take a look at Youngstown, Ohio. It was hit hard by declines in the steel industry and never recovered.
Look at how awful it is thought to be that former union manufacturing workers who had been getting $14 per hour now get only $10 per hour, while in NYC tens of thousands are forced to work off the books for less than the minimum wage -- with no legally required social security, unemployment insurance, or workman's comp, let alone health insurance.
You've mentioned these off-the-books employees before, but I still have my doubts. It seems to me that people who couldn't find regular jobs in NYC could move elsewhere in the country, where jobs are plentiful. And people like that are unlikely to have the sort of emotional attachments to NYC ("But we have art museums and symphony orchestras!") that would prevent them from living elsewhere.
(It seems to me that people who couldn't find regular jobs in NYC could move elsewhere in the country, where jobs are plentiful.)
You know the answer. The places where jobs are plentiful are the places where zoning limits housing to detached single family homes, which these folks can't afford. Of course, many immigrants ARE moving to the jobs by packing in to the few multiple dwelling units available and waiting on corners for work. The response has not been generous.
If there were a free market in housing, unfettered by government regulations, many older suburban homes would be subdivided into moderate income apartments, and the poor would move to jobs and better schools. Fiscal burdens would thus even out.
One wonders what would happen if NYC adopted relocation as a welfare reform strategy. I imagine that the response in the suburbs, and in Sunbelt areas where the parents of many of NYC's welfare recipients came from, would be similar to a proposal for a landfill for NYC's solid waste.
sad but true. the operative difference is; with a republican majority you get Trent Lott funnelingmoney to a sewer(Defense contractor) in Miss, if a Demo majority the moneymight be "wasted" somewhere else. One can hope for transit nationally, especially with our "friends" overseas charging extra for oil.
If they were really our friends they'd charge even more. As it stands, they're more like enablers to our oil addiction.
(If they were really our friends they'd charge even more. As it stands, they're more like enablers to our oil addiction.)
One wonders about all those surveys in which a large percent of Americans call themselves environmentalists, given the hysterical response to moderately high (when adjusted for inflation) oil prices two years after they were stunningly low. I guess it's not like all those "environmentalists" would consider riding a subway, would they?
ah, trapped by my own soundbite. I am not sypathetic to drivers of gas hogs, I am however concerned about heating costs in "serious" winter regions. I would call myself an environmentalist in general (note I do not drive, but this is not entirely by choice) In my view petroleum products should of course be price/quantity controlled to discourage auto usage, transit should be massively increased in scope, and a huge investment in solar should see most buildings heating water "off the grid" The capial investment would IMHO return in hugely lower foreign trade deficit==stronger dollar==more foreign capital in our equity markets, and the use of us labor in productive rather than hamburger flipping jobs. Chance politicians "pre-purchased" by oil/auto industry will do this. AFTER 2nd Ave Subway.
Agreed
>>A large portion of the nation's drop in crime can be attributed to
Giuliani, Bratton and Safir. If you take out NYC's decline in crime, the
national decline is not as dramatic<<
actually not--an interesting study, described in press reports last year this time, shows a direct correlation to abortion and other birth control availability. The headline read "Most criminals of the 90's were never born". The point is that larger numbers of potential victims of all forms of abusive child raising(or non-raising) were not born. The net result was a decrease in the 14-28 year old group in each state--those most likely to commit crimes. While you may find the implications distasteful, the economists started out looking for an explanation and were surprised by what popped up. TRANSIT CONTENT. one of the pleasant by-products of the decreased crime, is greater use of public transit by those who economically can choose not to. They of course are also more likely to be able to purchase the attention of the pols.
Thank you, John. I have a much easier time reading a conservative viewpoint if it's reasoned and logical. I am beginning to tire of reading such blanket phrases as "tax-eating Democrats" and the more subtle jabs, like "limousine liberals." In fact, I've been flabbergasted that the past couple of decades arch-conservatives have managed to turn the word "liberal," which is from the Latin root "liber," meaning "free," into a dirty one.
To these buzz-word throwers I would say, "Just please remember that not everyone has the same choices as you have had, and certainly not the exact same opportunities, and until you have walked a mile in the shoes of a so-called "liberal," don't presume to judge them so harshly. So-called 'Individual Responsibilty' is easier for some than others."
The truth is, public policy is far more complicated than sound bites and catch phrases, especially in New York. I also believe that candidates' dumbing down the issues in this way hurts us all. As far as transit goes, there is a consensus that more public transit is necessary. The nitty-gritty is: It's one thing to be "for" it, and yet another to decide who pays. In a utopia, equitable distribution of transportation dollars based on need or potential future need would be the norm. But in this country, you pay to play, and whomever gets the attention of the candidates, usually using cold, hard cash, is the one who benefits from legislation. And public money is the only way we get ANY form of transportation at all, including highways, air-travel, and railroads. This is why I'm so surprised there are so many conservatives on this board, for transit would not exist without the taxes they are so virulently opposed to!
All politics is local. The trick is to find and vote for a candidate who fulfills the most of your particualar wants, and there are as many different desires as there are locales, groups, and individuals. Of course, this is not ideal, but that's the way it is.
Most politicians are combinations of idealists and negotiators -- the successful ones anyway -- and all of them are egotists. Thankfully, however, not one of them can mold the country into their own personal view of it. It is unfortunate that most sink to knee-jerk insults during campaigning, which seems to get the attention of people, but which ultimately demoralizes voters and turns them away from exercising their constitutional right of self-government.
I have a much easier time reading a conservative viewpoint if it's reasoned and logical. I am beginning to tire of reading such blanket phrases as "tax-eating Democrats" and the more subtle jabs, like "limousine liberals." In fact, I've been flabbergasted that the past couple of decades arch-conservatives have managed to turn the word "liberal," which is from the Latin root "liber," meaning "free," into a dirty one.
To these buzz-word throwers I would say, "Just please remember that not everyone has the same choices as you have had, and certainly not the exact same opportunities, and until you have walked a mile in the shoes of a so-called "liberal," don't presume to judge them so harshly. So-called 'Individual Responsibilty' is easier for some than others."
Yet at least in my experience, people who have overcome a good deal of adversity tend to be conservative, while those who've had easy, privileged lives frequently are on the liberal side. There are exceptions, of course, and my observations may not be fully representative of the real state of affairs, but as a general rule I'll stand by this statement.
Why is this so? My guess, and yes, it's only a guess, is that people who've had to struggle, and more importantly who have made something out of their lives despite adversity, tend not to have much patience for people who just can't seem to get their lives in order.
>>>Yet at least in my experience, people who have overcome a good deal of adversity tend to be conservative, while those who've had easy, privileged lives frequently are on the liberal side. There are exceptions, of course, and my observations may not be fully representative of the real state of affairs, but as a general rule I'll stand by this statement. Why is this so? My guess, and yes, it's only a guess, is that people who've had to struggle, and more importantly who have made something out of their lives despite adversity, tend not to have much patience for people who just can't seem to get their lives in order. <<<
I think such people are to be admired. And more power to them for "pulling themselves up by their boot-straps." I just object when it's assumed that this can happen for everyone, and that if it doesn't, then there must be something wrong with a person's character who can't overcome some adversity.
And God forbid the government lend a hand! {Still ON TOPIC here} The poor, and, in the case of New York City, many of the middle class depend on the subway and commuter trains, which are funded publicly. So, when it comes to transportation, many hard-working middle-class citizens like myself, are interested in a so-called "liberal" transportation policy. I would hardly call my life "easy" or "priveledged," but nor would I claim to have had much "adversity" either. I have no problems paying my share of taxes and having them used for such public projects. So that makes me what? Another poster here on SubTalk would probably call me "a Communist" for saying that, and that attitude is what I'm objecting to. Just because I am for, say, a "level playing field" does not mean I'm for "equal distribution of wealth and the absolute power of the State." But the politically expedient (and, in my view, immature) method of discourse is to oversimplify the issues, which is a discredit to both politicians and voters alike.
And what has 50+ years of the Federal and NYC governments' "helping hand" done for the poor or for the NYC taxpayer? Nothing. The poverty rate in the U.S. has remained near 15% since the Johnson administration (1964-68). I'm tired of hearing from professional victims in this country who blame everybody but themselves for their failures, and then expect another government program to help them out.
The liberals answer has been to tax (punish) the motivated 85% to help the "helpless" 15% to our money.
A, its not your money, it is all of ours. If you were in a genuine free market system, you too, unless a member of the inheritor aristocracy would be earning min wages no matter what your skill level.
B It is IMHO the TASK of government to redistribute back down the ill gotten gains of the overly wealthy. Does this mean I support laziness? NO! But the idea that an exec at a mojor corporation should be paid mutiple millions a year while poor people are turned away from medical care is unspeakable. And while you are at it, please remember that even if at its height,all so-called welfare were fraudulent, the total dollar amount in any given year was a pittance compared to the $72 allen wrench wasre at DOD. How many B-2's @ $2 billion each would have bought us the Second Ave Subway?
BTW I work for myself and am self trained in my trade, having been spurned by the union apprentice program.
A, its not your money, it is all of ours.
I don't think so. That is a completely COMMUNIST idea, and I don't say that to insult anyone (since it seems communist is a bigger insult than liberal). Each person earns their own money. Nobody should work hard just to get some lazy low-life get benefit from that.
If you were in a genuine free market system, you too, unless a member of the inheritor aristocracy would be earning min wages no matter what your skill level.
what? inheritor aristocracy?
B It is IMHO the TASK of government to redistribute back down the ill gotten gains of the overly wealthy.
Who are you to call these gains "ill gotten?" You have an extremely severe case of class envy. Just because you cannot be happy while someone is better off than you doesn't mean that you should rob them of what they have.
Does this mean I support laziness? NO! But the idea that an exec at a mojor corporation should be paid mutiple millions a year while poor people are turned away from medical care is unspeakable.
You can get away with saying that in front of me only because I believe that medical care is an inalienable right.
And while you are at it, please remember that even if at its height,all so-called welfare were fraudulent, the total dollar amount in any given year was a pittance compared to the $72 allen wrench wasre at DOD. How many B-2's @ $2 billion each would have bought us the Second Ave Subway?
>>>A, its not your money, it is all of ours.
I don't think so. That is a completely COMMUNIST idea, and I don't say that to insult anyone (since it seems communist is a bigger insult than liberal). Each person earns their own money. Nobody should work hard just to get some lazy low-life get benefit from that.<<<
A completely communist idea would be to say that ALL of your money is all of ours. It's not about being insulted, it's about the distortion of the issues. Surely you can admit that some taxation is required for the maintenance of a civilized society, if only to give you and yours the best possible chance to make money -- most basically through protection of our borders. This type of sound-bite, and your labelling everyone who benefits from social welfare a "low-life," is what I was talking about.
I am happy to hear you mention that medical care is an "inalienable right." It's obvious you are not that certain type of free-marketeer known as Insurance Company Executive. But I do think you may have a poster of Joe McCarthy hanging on the wall in your den. :o)
I'm not characterizing people all people who receive social welfare as lowlifes, however I am saying that a number of them are and I was just illustrating an extreme case.
I'm not characterizing people all people who receive social welfare as lowlifes, however I am saying that a number of them are and I was just illustrating an extreme case.
In addition, since I don't consider a communist a bad person (they have reasons for their ideas) why would I have a picture of McCarthy on my wall? McCarthyism may have targeted the people who I disagree with and wish for them not to be in power, but that does not justify their excommunication. The opposite can occur and people with other types of views can suffer the same wrath, and I certainly wouldn't like it!
okay, let's start at the bottom line.
l. your money, my money--why should I spend dime through taxes to improve the sewage system where you live? 'Cause we ALL have to deal with polution.
2. why should "my taxes" support public education (I have no genetic offspring thus no "need" for schools)?
3. why should my taxes go for a fire department, police, etc.? I have never needed the fire department at my house, the cops...
4. The answer my friend... or if you prefer older lit No man is an island. If that makes me a Communist in your eyes, so be it. But I defend your free speech rights as much as my own. AND I will be out today on the BART which is massively tax funded(although most of the original cost of building was of course merely UPWARD redistribution of taxes paid by workers to contracting firms and corporate entities). BTW I am pleased you recognize the RIGHT to healthcare. So If that should be available to all as of right, what else is in that category by your standards? housing, freedom from physical assualt by the police, counsel at trial, safe drinking water, PUBLIC TRANSIT?
its not your money, it is all of ours
Why? What makes you, or anyone else for that matter, entitled to anyone elses money? Nothing. According to Nozick's entitlement theory of justice, which holds true for a free market system, you or anyone else are not entitled to anything except:
"a. A person who acquires a holding in accordance with the principle of justice in acquisition is entitled to that holding.
b. A person who acquires a holding in accordance with the principle of justice in transfer, from someone else entitled to the holding, is entitled to the holding.
[and]
c. No one is entitled to a holding except by (repeated) applications of (a) and (b)."
If you were in a genuine free market system, you too, unless a member of the inheritor aristocracy would be earning min wages no matter what your skill level.
That is contradictory to the definintion of a free market system. In a true free market there would be no minimum wage!!!!!!
It is IMHO the TASK of government to redistribute back down the ill gotten gains of the overly wealthy
Again read Nozick.
How many B-2's @ $2 billion each would have bought us the Second Ave Subway?
Mabye if we were not the worlds 911 we wouldnt need to buy as many b-2's. Also why should some farmer in Nebraska pay for the second ave. subway?
>>>Also why should some farmer in Nebraska pay for the second ave. subway?<<<
For the same reason I pay for that farmer's, and all of his neighbors' farm subsidies.
THANK YOU
Although there is another way to look at this. The less the federal government does, the better off the Northeast is. We in NYC have absorbed so many cuts -- they have been targeted to us -- that we can't lose by spending less.
Why should we pay the farm subsidies?
If you think it's because we need to get food, then if he doesn't pay for the Second Avenue Subway, he'll have more money left over to farm.
I know that the farmer won't be paying for the Second Avenue Subway anyway. The farmer shouldn't get farm subsidies because family farms are ARCHAIC AND INEFFICIENT! we should do more to encourage industrial farming and help accelerate breeding and quality through CAREFUL genetic engineering.
I know that the farmer won't be paying for the Second Avenue Subway anyway. The farmer shouldn't get farm subsidies because family farms are ARCHAIC AND INEFFICIENT! we should do more to encourage industrial farming and help accelerate breeding and quality through CAREFUL
genetic engineering.
Perhaps you'd be willing to contribute to the porcine gene pool?
>>> The farmer shouldn't get farm subsidies because family farms are ARCHAIC AND INEFFICIENT! we should do more to encourage industrial farming <<<
Wake up and smell the roses. It is the big industrial farms who are getting the big farm subsidies. Another example of corporate welfare.
Tom
(Faimly farms: Wake up and smell the roses. It is the big industrial farms who are getting the big farm subsidies. Another example of corporate welfare.)
Kind of like all that money "for the poor" in New York City.
The farmer gets no use out of the second ave. subway, just as you get no use out of farm subsidies. In an ideal situation you would pay for your subway and and lower price at the checkout line and the farmer would get lower gas taxes and/or more roads for his area without spending money on something he will never use.
Absolutely! I never ceases to amaze me how many subsidies go to farms, dairy processors, and other agricultural firms. And how these subsidies are almost uniquely immune to any scrutiny - while rail and transit subsidies, a vital part of NYC's and other cities(and therefore much of the Northeast) infrastructure, are politically assailed with regularity!
WHAT!? It is complesty the other way around. In 1996 congress passed the FAIR (freedom top farm act) which (allegedly) all but eliminated farm subsidies. Last I checked the feds buy all of the new trains for AMTRAK.
That act didn't. More on this below.
(WHoa! The post was not intended to ruffle a few feathers here (if it did). A thousand pardons please!)
I meant to point out that politically it is generally been hard to even seriously consider cutting farm subsidies - a statement true for few other subsidies. In contrast, Amtrak has almost always been under fire and subject to budgetary cuts from an often hostile Congress nearly every year. In fact (as you may know) Amtrak will be rid of all federal subsidies by 2003 (or so the plan goes).
Actually, the feds STILL gave farmers (officially and directly) something like $15 billion in "emergency aid" (in 1998), over $20 billion in 1999, and another $15 this year. Also, for many years (I do not know if this is still the case) various foodstuff processors, especially sugar ( believe it or not) also were subsidized and drew much criticism (that went nowhere in Congress) for monopoly practices by several large conglomerates. I sorry I don't have these sources (articles) handy, but it's quite true.
There is however, much concern that most of these subsidies are being received by a few large farms, at the expense of all the others.
The problem with AMTRAK is that it supports routes that no one ride. If AMTRAK would shut down all of the routes that don't make money they would not need a subsidy.
As for FAIR, that was promising in 1996, but the congress loves throwing money at a problem so as to get votes. The votes are gotten not in farm districts, but in modarate districts were their opponet runs ads saying that thoose evil republicians are against family farms. When you have polling data that shows that 67% of americans think the government should have a special policy to insure that family farms survive, this arguement is very powerfull.
About the FAIR and the fact that politics made cutting subsidies hard - absolutely!
The same thing is happening to Amtrak - it will have a tough time shutting down unprofitable routes for the same reason. Which congressperson want to be forever known as the one who let the local train die?
And some AMtrak routes are quite popular. I also understand that even some long haul Western routes (Empire Builder specifically) have turned an operating profit (I am not certain about this - is this true?).
(About the FAIR and the fact that politics made cutting subsidies hard - absolutely!)
In 1994, you got a bunch of Republican wahoos who actually believed in principles -- cutting government fundig for everyone AND corporate welfare. One result was the Freedom to Farm Act, which eliminated government control of agriculture and phased out subsidies. You saw what "partisanship" got them. They got whacked as bad as the liberals who actually believed in providing public services for everyone.
They've got religion. Now Republicans are in favor of cutting assistance to the poor, especially those with darker shades of skin. But for everyone else, they spend like drunken sailors. One result has been a series of "emergency" farm bills which funneled big bucks to large, influential agricultural conglomerates. Consumers face a heads you win (high prices) tails I lose (low prices = big subsidies) situation, but what else is new. Food prices are up across the board, but the family farmers are as bad off as before.
A, its not your money, it is all of ours. If you were in a genuine free market system, you too, unless a member of the inheritor aristocracy would be earning min wages no matter what your skill level.
B It is IMHO the TASK of government to redistribute back down the ill gotten gains of the overly wealthy. Does this mean I support laziness? NO! But the idea that an exec at a mojor corporation should be paid mutiple millions a year while poor people are turned away from medical care is unspeakable. And while you are at it, please remember that even if at its height,all so-called welfare were fraudulent, the total dollar amount in any given year was a pittance compared to the $72 allen wrench wasre at DOD. How many useless B-2's @ $2 billion each would have bought us the Second Ave Subway?
BTW I work for myself and am self trained in my trade, having been spurned by the union apprentice program.
(The liberals answer has been to tax (punish) the motivated 85% to help the "helpless" 15% to our money. )
That's the 1960s version, and is out of date. Now they just help themselves to public funding for their non-profits. The poor get almost nothing these days. In fact, if you add it all up, they probably get less public money per capita than the rest of us, though of course they also have less to put in.
The poverty rate has remained the same, but there has been a huge change in WHO is poor. The government gave a huge amount of money, which they control, to the elderly. Poverty among the elderly plunged -- they are getting most of the cash and they are better off than the average worker. The government gave a substantial amount of money to non-profit organizations supposedly for the benefit of the other poor, and then cut it back. The non-profit organizations thrived. Children are much more likely to be poor today. Of course, many of these children have only one parent, which means one or no vote. Better to send the money to a middle class family with two votes.
True liberals started complaining about the hijacking of poverty funds in the 1960s. Some of these are now conservatives.
Of course, many of these children have only one parent, which means one or no vote.
Which is why the minimum voting age should be ABOLISHED.
In fact, the minimum voting age is unconstitutional.
About 20 years ago the government abolished mandatory retirement at age 65 because it constituted age discrimination. The mandatory retirement age became 70. Apparently that made sense to lawmakers.
I don't know whether any specific mandatory age number was abolished, but the company that I work for stopped making people retire. Two of my former coworkers (my job location got changed) are still working at age 74 and 72, respectively. They collect wage, social security, pension and 401k.
About 20 years ago the government abolished mandatory retirement at age 65 because it constituted age discrimination. The mandatory retirement age became 70. Apparently that made sense to lawmakers.
I don't know whether any specific mandatory age number was abolished, but the company that I work for stopped making people retire. Two of my former coworkers (my job location got changed) are still working at age 74 and 72, respectively. They collect wage, social security, pension and 401k.
Oddly enough, in the years since the abolsihment of mandatory retirement, the average retirement age has dropped, and generally by a considerable margin. Your senior-citizen former coworkers are very much the exception. I don't have any statistics offhand, but ISTR that well under half of all 60-year-old males are still working on a full-time basis, while a generation ago the percentage was something like 80%. 55 seems to be becoming the earliest age for retirement in many corporations. In some cases, retirement ages as low as 50 are found - for example, in one of its recent "buy-outs" AT&T offered early retirement to 50-year-olds.
I realize that my older ex-coworkers are the exception; the 74-year-old is happier at work than at home (he ran around on his wife for years) and the 72-year-old's 59 year old wife is much happier at home with him at work.
Of course, many of these children have only one parent, which means one or no vote.
Which is why the minimum voting age should be ABOLISHED.
In fact, the minimum voting age is unconstitutional, it also violates the Treaty on Human Rights.
It contains more than the other one.
In fact, the minimum voting age is unconstitutional...
Uh, 27th admendment:
Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.
Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
Bad news for Bush -- 300,000 childern already voted in 54 - 45.
The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.
It says nothing about forcing the voting age to be 18, states can still make it lower, they just can't make it higher.
14th Amendment:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
By making a law that states that persons under eighteen cannot vote, the states are "[abridging] the privileges or immunities of citizens"
No other part of the constitution, not even the 27th, overrides that article with respect to voting, one of our most fundamental rights.
It's the 26th amendment, BTW. The 27th is that congress can't give itself a pay raise. If you think that citizens under 18 should vote, should they also be held responsible for their actions the same way an adult would?
My mistake
should they also be held responsible for their actions the same way an adult would?
You already have people as young as 13 being tried as adults, while nobody gets the privildges of adults.
This is a horrible double standard, and I don't believe in double standards. No matter who they benefit.
By making a law that states that persons under eighteen cannot vote, the states are "[abridging] the privileges or immunities of citizens"
So by this logic five year olds should be able to ownn guns?
Yes
How will a five year old get a gun anyway?
If a five year old is capable of obtaining a gun, then it doesn't make him/her any more or less responsible than a 30 year old working, getting paid, and buying a firearm.
>>> By making a law that states that persons under eighteen cannot vote, the states are "[abridging] the privileges or immunities of citizens" <<<
This is by far the stupidest misinterpretation of constitutional law I have ever seen.
Tom
If you feel so strongly about its alleged "stupidity," why don't you back up your statement as opposed to making hollow claims?
Read the opinion in OREGON v. MITCHELL, 400 U.S. 112 (1970). This would precident in any cast dealing with voting age.
Actually, I think it sounds like a pretty good arguement. However, I don't agree with it nor do I think that it would hold up in the Supreme Court if anyone decided to challenge it.
Following the logic of Pork's interpertation, the 19th amendent is pointless, their right to vote would have been protected under the 14th amendment as well. But if you read on in the 15th amendment, it says,
"The rights of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude"
It says nothing about age or sex, so therefore it can be interpreted that you can discreminate by age or sex, as long as race isn't a factor (19th took care of sex).
Actually, I think it sounds like a pretty good arguement. However, I don't agree with it nor do I think that it would hold up in the Supreme Court if anyone decided to challenge it.
Fat chance of anybody in the establishment (I don't say that in a derisive fashion) supporting such a thing now. The women's suffrage movement and the civil rights movement took generations to take hold. I'm not holding my breath. Not that it affects me anymore, but I still feel for it (just like I support a woman's right to vote even though I'm not one).
Following the logic of Pork's interpertation, the 19th amendent is pointless, their right to vote would have been protected under the 14th amendment as well. But if you read on in the 15th amendment, it says
Well, I read partially the Supreme Court decision that samplescr mentioned. The ruling basically says that the Federal Government can set the rules for national elections, but not for state or local ones, and that the Fourteenth Amendment does not affect how states set voting ages; Hence the need for a Twenty-sixth Amendment. Of course, justices are just as bound by politics as Congress, if to a lesser extent, and their opinions do demonstrate mores contemporary to themselves. It is not without precedent that the Court overturns a previous ruling, think Plessy v. Fergusson(sp?). But I wouldn't bet on it.
"The rights of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude"
It says nothing about age or sex, so therefore it can be interpreted that you can discreminate by age or sex, as long as race isn't a factor (19th took care of sex).
That's an interesting interpretation, but I think of it differently. The amendment says that those are criteria by which voting right cannot be set, however it does not say those are the only criteria. If the Supreme Court decides that a previous amendment covers the other areas, then the Fifteenth won't block it.
In the Oregon v. Mitchell ruling (the one referenced above, 1970) the court (as I have already mentioned) said that the Fourteenth should not be considered as to limit the rights that states to set ages, but it did use the amendment to ban the use of competence and literacy tests as voting qualification. One argument used against the competence tests is another instance of a "skin color is a disability" ruling by saying that the competence exams discriminated against Blacks and therefore violated the Fifteenth Amendment. They said, in effect, that Black people are stupid. I disagree with the institution of the exams and I can understand an argument banning them because they are deliberately designed to be discriminatory; But that wasn't the only thing that was said.
The reason I wouldn't want anyone under 18 to vote is that, in general, they do not pay the taxes that us voters pay. I do not want some kid voting for someone that will make decisions on where my money goes, without affecting that under-18 voter. Do you really think that a little child can make an informed decision on who they are going to vote for? Do you think that they would even care about voting? Nope. There will probably never be a "children's rights movement" or whatever because not many kids care about stuff like that. Could you see a 15 year old making a speech about how "oppressed" they are? The only oppression in the eyes of a kid is that their parents won't pay them a Play Station 2.
About my interpertation of the 15th amendment, I just thought of that of the top of my head. :)
The reason I wouldn't want anyone under 18 to vote is that, in general, they do not pay the taxes that us voters pay.
With right come responsibilities. The same taxes would be paid by the child, unless they don't have enough income and are therefore exempt.
In addition, children pay sales tax and social security taxes if they work. In the case of the latter, they will almost certainly never get anything out of it.
I do not want some kid voting for someone that will make decisions on where my money goes, without affecting that under-18 voter.
As opposed to laws being made against under-18ers by people who don't fear losing any votes.
Do you really think that a little child can make an informed decision on who they are going to vote for? Do you think that they would even care about voting? Nope.
You have fifty year olds who don't care about voting, and don't! Why should people over 18 who don't care about voting be given the oppurtunity, while people under 18 who could understand and be interested in voting are treated like convicted felons until they reach a certain magic (and outdated) number.
There will probably never be a "children's rights movement" or whatever because not many kids care about stuff like that. Could you see a 15 year old making a speech about how "oppressed" they are?
Yes, there are lot of 15 year olds, including ones which I have seen, which are a hell of a lot more smarter and more articulate than many 35 year olds.
The only oppression in the eyes of a kid is that their parents won't pay them a Play Station 2.
Maybe when you're extremely young, but a 15 year old can already feel the oppression of being unjustly unable to drive, subjected to an illegal municipal curfew and being unable to get a job to pay for that Playstation.
I feel there are some more things to be said
Do you really think that a little child can make an informed decision on who they are going to vote for? Do you think that they would even care about voting? Nope.
The same thing was said about women. They will just vote for what their husbands say.
There will probably never be a "children's rights movement" or whatever because not many kids care about stuff like that. Could you see a 15 year old making a speech about how "oppressed" they are?
Some people don't have short memories. Even without voting, there are other oppressions that are even worse, like being UNABLE TO DRIVE. By being unable to drive, this turns suburbs into youth prisons where they just get bored.
One good thing the internet has done was give these people access without parental control. Another thing is to allow younger people access to facilities previously available only to adults. When I was 14, I was the youngest person on Subtalk. If this was a live group, nobody would take me seriously and I would be laughed away. Here, nobody knew my age and it obviously didn't matter.
I wrote: Maybe when you're extremely young, but a 15 year old can already feel the oppression of being unjustly unable to drive, subjected to an illegal municipal curfew and being unable to get a job to pay for that Playstation.
And they can't drink or go to R-rated films.
Have you thought about being a lawyer? Because you'll about argue anything until you have the last word! :)
Anyway, the driving thing, as you may know, 16 and 17 year olds hardly even know how to drive. I don't have any stats with me, but they cause a highly disproportionate number of all accidents every year. My driving record when I was 17 proves those stats! Yet you think that sub-16 year olds should be able to drive?
With right come responsibilities. The same taxes would be paid by the child, unless they don't have enough income and are therefore exempt.
Most likely, they won't have the income, so they'll be exempt. There's a reason there are child labor laws, look back to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution.
Yes, there are lot of 15 year olds, including ones which I have seen, which are a hell of a lot more smarter and more articulate than many 35 year olds.
I know that, but they are nowhere near the majority of children.
The simple fact is that most children are mentally and biologically not ready for the responsibilties that adults have.
I'll let you have the last word...
Have you thought about being a lawyer? Because you'll about argue anything until you have the last word! :)
It seems to me that modern day lawyers have too much time on their hands.
Anyway, the driving thing, as you may know, 16 and 17 year olds hardly even know how to drive. I don't have any stats with me, but they cause a highly disproportionate number of all accidents every year. My driving record when I was 17 proves those stats! Yet you think that sub-16 year olds should be able to drive?
My 17 year old driving record is clean. Problems with 16-17 year old drivers most likely have to do with lack of experience, not immaturity. In fact, young people have better vision and can react more quickly to things. If a person learned to drive when they were 14, and drove regularly, then they wouldn't have as bad a driving experience at 16-17.
Most likely, they won't have the income, so they'll be exempt.
Do you also think poor people should not be allowed to vote.
There's a reason there are child labor laws, look back to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution.
To prevent parents from forcing their children to work. If the child has their own right to choose a job, that can't happen.
And most of those awful jobs that children were forced to have are obsolete and/or illegal.
I know that, but they are nowhere near the majority of children.
So, most women didn't make speeches for the women's suffrage movement. The same for black people in the civil rights movement.
The simple fact is that most children are mentally and biologically not ready for the responsibilties that adults have.
The problem here is that by creating the "magic number," a large number of people are capable of undertaking the responsibilities, but are not given the oppurtunity.
In addition, our age of 18 is obsolete. It is already well known that children develop faster than they did 100 years ago, even if they aren't forced to undertake the same responsibilites as early.
I'll let you have the last word...
I don't like having the last word! Not only do I not get a response (which helps me think of or rethink my ideas), by always having the last word, it makes me look like one of those people who are wrongly maligned for always needing the last word.
Well, I guess I can be maligned, since I know it's wrongly.
Anyway, this discussion doesn't belong here anyway, but hate mail is welcome at my e-mail address: hatemail@boarshevik.com and deaththreats@boarshevik.com. All e-mails to those addresses is read and not discarded.
If a person learned to drive when they were 14, and drove regularly, then they wouldn't have as bad a driving experience at 16-17.
Until not too many years ago, several Midwestern and Western states allowed 14-year-olds to drive. These policies dated back to when the states were heavily agricultural, and most children had experience driving trucks and tractors on the farm. It's important to note that the states raised their driving ages before it became trendy to demonize all young people*. They realized that driving at such a young age was no longer advisable in non-agrarian environments.
In addition, our age of 18 is obsolete. It is already well known that children develop faster than they did 100 years ago, even if they aren't forced to undertake the same responsibilites as early.
It's also well known that girls develop physically at much younger ages than boys, with this age gap increasing. See the recent Time magazine article - today it's not uncommon for some girls to reach physical adulthood by age nine. Are you going to give girls adult responsibilities at younger ages than boys?
* = as the stepfather of a 15-year-old and a 12-year-old, I am well aware that today's society tends to treat all young people as lowlifes, if not outright criminals. Just looking at lists of school disciplinary codes (and hearing about their practices) never ceases to amaze me. Today, a fistfight between two students is regarded as a very serious event, with lenghty suspensions, mandatory parent conferences, and in some cases with the police summoned. In my school days - which weren't THAT long ago - fistfights (and I participated in a few) generally resulted in no more than a day or two detention.
Are you going to give girls adult responsibilities at younger ages than boys?
I don't advocate lowering age restrictions except as a temporary measure. I advocate their abolition.
A person would gain emancipation from their parents once they either declare their intentions along with their parents, do so in front of a judge, or have something else official occur.
I don't advocate lowering age restrictions except as a temporary measure. I advocate their abolition.
A person would gain emancipation from their parents once they either declare their intentions along with their parents, do so in front of a judge, or have something else official occur.
Most if not all states in fact do allow minors to become legally emancipated before the age of 18.
The process is a pain in the ass, requiring an attorney along with proof of financial independence.
How are you supposed to get financial independence if you're forced to go to school during the day, and are limited in the hours you can work?
Lets not forget the inability to open a bank account or sign a lease.
No message
Yes, there are lot of 15 year olds, including ones which I have seen, which are a hell of a lot more smarter and more articulate than many 35 year olds.
At lot? No, I wouldn't say so. A few? Yes, absolutely, my younger daughter (who is now 18, a college graduate and now a first year law student) being among them. Speaking from my experience as the father of four children, however, I find that there aren't even very many college students who are prepared for the responsibilities of life. I don't consider the driving age to be unreasonable, and I for one would like to see the voting age INCREASED to 25 or so, with some additional qualifications - starting with a basic knowledge of the English language, but also including some form of tangible property ownership (not necessarily real estate) - added to it. While this would not be ideal, I think it would be considerably better than our present system.
Soapbox mode = ON
When I was your age I marvelled at how little my parents knew. But the older I've gotten the more I have come to realize how much my parents knew. You too will get there and will come to realize how foolish some of your arguments sound. Don't be afraid to sound a little foolish, though, because that is how we all learn. And most importantly, don't be afraid to think for yourself. Question us older folks - but question us not for the sake of hearing yourself ask a question, but because you want to learn what we believe the answer is.
Soapbox mode = OFF
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I see it as that older people have forgotten their struggles as young people.
And I have never felt that my parents knew very little, I have nothing against parental control at all. It's government repression that bothers me.
As for your reactionary views on raising the voting age, restoring property requirements and tests for voting eligibility, I think we've gone to far off topic and don't need to start another discussion.
(The reason I wouldn't want anyone under 18 to vote is that, in general, they do not pay the taxes that us voters pay. I do not want some kid voting for someone that will make decisions on where my money goes, without affecting that under-18 voter.)
Children are not knowledgable to vote, that is for certain. HOWEVER, we live in a country where the children, and the next generation, have gotten screwed. At one time, money and attention was lavished on the kids while the needs of the old were neglected. Today the reverse is true.
Politics would be very different if parents got to cast additional votes on behalf of their children's interests. Of course that assumes that parents care more about their kids than their grandparents do, something I guess we cannot take for granted.
Take the Second Avenue Subway. The way things are going, I'd only be able ride the thing for a few years. But my children would have it througout their working lives if they started building it now.
The parents will only vote for things more important to themselves, not to their children and we'll have a continuation in policies that appear to help children but instead harm them, like restrictions related to entertainment ratings, municipal curfews, zero tolerance policies in school, school control of speech and press and youth drinking and smoking laws.
And I'm sure that most people here will actually wonder how crazy I am to suggest that any of these things actually harm children.
Finally, I don't think young children are responsible enough to vote. But age restrictions are a one size fits all solution that is unfair to a large number of people. It would make more sense to restore competence tests instead of the magic number (and until then, lower the magic number) and create a tribune (as in Roman times) to make sure that the rights of those who aren't yet competent enough are not abridged of their rights (including the right to declare majority).
The poor, and, in the case of New York City, many of the middle class depend on the subway and commuter trains, which are funded publicly. So, when it comes to transportation, many hard-working middle-class citizens like myself, are interested in a so-called "liberal" transportation policy. I would hardly call my life "easy"
or "priveledged," but nor would I claim to have had much "adversity" either. I have no problems paying my share of taxes and having them used for such public projects. So that makes me what? Another poster here on SubTalk would probably call me "a Communist" for saying that, and that attitude is what I'm objecting to. Just because I am for, say, a "level playing field" does not mean I'm for "equal distribution of wealth and the absolute power of the State." But the politically expedient (and, in my view, immature) method of discourse is to oversimplify the issues, which is a discredit to both politicians and voters alike.
I do not believe that even the most conservative New Yorkers would object too strenously to the idea of transit funding. It would be very difficult if not impossible for the city to survive in anything close to its present form without transit. No one's going to disagree with that. It's also probably acknowledged by all that some subsidies will be needed no matter what. Now, where reasonable minds might differ is with respect to the extent of transit subsidies. People of a more conservative bent might argue that the transit system should be run in a more businesslike manner - which of course means a major crackdown on unions - so as to lessen its dependence on subsidies (though surely not eliminating the need). Moderates and liberals probably believe that it's better to avoid big disruptions, even if this means keeping subsidies at higher levels.
>>> People of a more conservative bent might argue that the transit system should be run in a more businesslike manner - which of course means a major crackdown on unions <<<
No, the true conservatives will say that I worked hard to earn my money and I can afford to pay $10.00 per ride, so raise the fare to a level where the subways will be self supporting (and less crowded), and let those who were too lazy to get good enough jobs to afford the fare find some other way to get around. :-)
Tom
People of a more conservative bent might argue that the transit system should be run in a more businesslike manner - which of course means a major crackdown on unions
No, the true conservatives will say that I worked hard to earn my money and I can afford to pay $10.00 per ride, so raise the fare to a level where the subways will be self supporting (and less crowded), and let those who were too lazy to get good enough jobs to afford the fare find some other way to get around
Elsewhere in the country, maybe, but not in New York. Even the most anti-government-spending New Yorker recognizes, however grudgingly, that affordable mass transit is absolutely vital to the city's economic growth and indeed survival.
I would rather that less taxes be charged and the fare be $10.00.
Those who cannot afford it, would be given Train Stamps.
I would rather that less taxes be charged and the fare be $10.00.
Those who cannot afford it, would be given Train Stamps.
Another collectible!
I hope I'm wrong but it's beginning to start to look like the past 8 years of NYC growth and low crime were an aberration.
My thoughts exactly. If I owned a house or other property in the city, I'd have it on the market right now.
Last time I checked, there's a Republican in the mayor's office. I've never heard him say anything "contemptuous" about NYC, have you?
NYC voters will elect a liberal Republican mayor every generation - LaGuardia, Lindsay, Giuliani. It doesn't change the city's overall voting patterns.
Both Gore and Hillary would be better for mass transit than their respective opponents, including Nader. Democratic office holders with urban constituents must be more attuned to the long and short term needs of cities than Republican ones.
In the Senate, would Hilliary or Rick be more likely to vote for more mass trasnit funding? Even if Lazio wanted to, his party bosses in the Senate leadership could force him not to.
Also look what happened when Pataki took office - the MTA suffered cutbacks, and a fare increase. Five years later, he wants the subway to keep growing, but on borrowed money, that will not have to be repaid until long after Pataki leaves office. This may force similar cutbacks and fare increases at that time.
Nader, though great as a consumer advocate, is an extremist. As the NY Times (editorial) pointed out yesterday, his candidacy is not just "delusional" but "dishonest", for claiming that there are no policy dfferences on the environment between Gore and oil-slicker George Bush's kid.
I will enthusiasticlaly vote fore Gore/Lieberman. I will then hold my nose and vote for Hillary. (Too bad Carl McCall, Andrew Cuomo, or Nita Lowey couldn't get in the race.)
10/30/2000
[In the Senate, would Hilliary or Rick be more likely to vote for more mass trasnit funding? Even if Lazio wanted to, his party bosses in the Senate leadership could force him not to. ]
Party bosses didn't stop Al D'Amato from getting money from Washington for transit here.
Bill "Newkirk"
1. For the past week, they've been installing the new lighting, now all they need is light bulbs.
2. The signal system in the southbound track(T1?) is active, showing red. The new signals on D3 are also on (finally), let's hope they stay that way.
3. The power is still off (or that worker sitting on the third rail's got some pretty thick pants).
4. Rails are more shiny than usual, train(s) have gone through recently.
10/28/2000
Just saw this on the Ch.5 10'clock news:
At the end of Monday's yankee parade will be an R-62 #1415 on a flatbed adorned with Yankee, Subway series and Modells emblems.
THIS IS TRUE !!
Joe Hofman described that this was an ordinary subway car from the #4 line to end up the parade. Does #1415 havc any significence ?
Is this the first time a NYC subway car appeared in a parade since R-33S #9306 did the honors in theFifth Avenue Association Parade of 1963 or 64 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I also saw it in the ch.5 news.
That is kinda stupid...they should put the first car of a R142 covered entirely in pinstripes. That's what I think...
The R-142 is CRAP. That's what I think.
Besides, the R-62 is what's regularly operated on the 4, not the R142(yecch).
And which of your two brain cells made that determination? The 142 is indeed operating on the 4, at least 2 sets that I've seen. A single 142 on a truck will look odd, since it's single-ended. As for what you think is 'crap', you know thge old addage about opinions.
-Hank
Boy, its a good thing they didn't try a thing like that that with the Braves or Padres series..I don't think a 757 would fit down Broadway.... :>)
The Dept. of Subways always yell about Budgets, Budgets, Budgets. Because Joe Hoffman is such a big Yankee fan, I know from a reliable source that budgets were out the window when it came to making up these special World Series Trains. Now Joe has this R62 car in the parade! How much dough is this costing the TA? And of course, the badly needed 4 car mates, especially in light of of last weeks crash, are needed more than ever for service. If the Mets won the Series, would a #7 line car be in the parade? Only Joe knows!
Both a R-62 and a R-36 should going down the parade. As obvious as it sounds, without the Yankees AND the Mets, there would be no Subway Series. The Yanks have won the last two World Series after all without (comparatively) much notice. It's the presence of the Mets that made the difference, whether you like them or not.
Bill from Maspeth:
If they're putting R-62 #1415 on parade tomorrow will anyone have the brains to put a train of R-33s on the #4 line to substitute for the train that will be absent. The other thing I wish to mention that if they're short on rolling stock for the #4 line wouldn't it make sense to move a train or two over to the #4 where it is now needed since last week's crash resulted in loss of equipment (i.e. at least 2 cars appear to have been damaged beyond repair.) If possible maybe the people at the TA should order about 10 extra R-142s than originally intended in order to make up for equipment that has been lost over the years due to accidents.
BMTJeff
They always find a way to make full service...... They shift cars around from yard to yard.....they'll run cars which would be better not to be on the road. Like a dead motor or 2, defective air conditioning, doors cut out, bury a defective car.
Bill from Maspeth:
Why don't they fix the defective cars before putting them into service? If they did there would be far fewer trains breaking down while they're in service carrying passengers.
BMTJeff
How is it possible if they only put 1 car in the parade? The R62s are all in 5-car sets.
running on...
Unlink the car, put it on a flatbed (207 ST. yard has a ramp) and hold the other 4 cars in the yard till 1415 returns.
[I know from a reliable source that budgets were out the window when it came to making up these special World Series Trains.]
How much do you think the wraps cost ?
Might have been a bargen price from TCI ... they would love to sell subway wraps, so maybe a little chum on the waters ?
Mr t__:^)
It would have been a hell of a lot cheaper to reroute a brand new R142 from the Kawasaki Plant to the parade, then back to 239 Street Yard. What the heck, they are on a truck ANYWAY. Its a shame people like Joe Hoffman have this type of power inside and outside of City Hall. They could even used one of the collision cars temporarily. But the same bean counters who's job it is to save money on compensation (deny our pay when we hurt), save money by violating the contract (deny our pay when we work) and the constant disciplinary actions levied against its workers (denying us the privilige to work) can make the sky the limit when it comes to building ballparks and taking trains out of service to supply a float for a parade. Rudy and Joey, Shame on YOU!
Agreed, what a monumental waste of money. It seems that Joe Hoffman has forgotten from whence he came.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why carp about the expense of the R-62 in the parade? The parade itself is a non-productive use of funds, but no one on this board has complained about it. A few have stated they will be in attendance. The use of one car on a "float" will not break the budget or disable the subway system, and will bring some (non-negative) publicity to the subway system.
Tom
I also believe that if the Mets had won that this would not be happening.
Peace,
ANDEE
I guess so... There'd be a Redbird (#9307 perhaps?) on that flatbed truck instead of #1415... maybe none at all!
10/30/2000
[I guess so... There'd be a Redbird (#9307 perhaps?) on that flatbed truck instead of #1415... maybe none at all! ]
In case if you missed an earlier post by Bill from Maspeth, Joe Hofman (he spells it with one F)is a staunch Yankee fan. This was evident months ago when interviewed in his office by Transit Transit. You couldn't miss the Yankee memorablia in the background.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey, if the Mets had won the series, the city could have contacted Brand Electric Railway and gotten hold of 6688 for the parade with the understanding that NYCT would have to prime and paint her in return!!!
Not a bad trade-off, I think!
;-)
BMTman
AHHH, you're just trying to get out of some work!
Peace,
ANDEE
You're DAMN RIGHT!
Piece,
BMTman
(I got ya, Andee...;-)
I heard on the news last night that the Mets had been invited to make this a joint Yankees/Mets subway series parade, and they declined. So instead there will be another ceremony at City Hall later in November at which the Mets will receive keys to the city.
[So instead there will be another ceremony at City Hall later in November at which the Mets will receive keys to the city.]
Hey, Dave -- beg my pardon, but shouldn't the Mets players be presented with keys to a Redbird since this was a Subway Series after all? :-)
BMTman
Getting back to the original question, I am also curious what transit vehicles may have traveled the avenues of the City off-rail. I know of one occaision at certain Stueben's Day parade (it wasn't a subway car tho).
The only other subway car I know of that travelled in a parade was R33WF #9306.
Here's a picture.
You see, Septa is planning to bring back light rail. It's in their five year plan. I quote this from the site
"Expand Rail Services
Light Rail service is a core component of the Authority’s business. Opportunities to expand service beyond currently operated routes, re-activating lines traditionally served by light rail, and development of a plan to improve and update the service fleet must be considered to maintain the viability of a regional multi-modal system. The tactics in this strategy include:
reinstituting Girard Avenue light rail service
evaluating future rail service such as the Cross County Metro, Schuylkill Valley Metro, Rt. 100 Extension
evaluating conversion of select railroad lines to light rail service
developing a light rail vehicle plan"
See? After all, they truly are serious about change.
I agree that SEPTA has all good intentions but it also publishes schedules for routes that aren't worth the paper. Its street supervision and commitment to service on the City Transit Division leave much to be desired.
Has there been any talk about which existing rail lines SEPTA wants to convert to light rail? I would think that the R8 to Chestnut Hill and Fox Chase and R7 to Chestnut Hill would be good candidates, since these commuter lines don't even leave the city limits. I also think they want to put light rail on a lot of the R6 lines, which runs mostly in the city.
Michalovic
There were plans to convert the R-7 Chestnut Hill East line into a subway line connecting it to The Broad Street Subway, but as always, there are never enough pictures of Ben Frankin to cover the costs.
Too bad. I guess that fifty or sixty year period of urban decline that we're just starting to come out of has made it hard to pay for any new subways here in Philly. Just curious, when was this R7 subway idea being tossed around? It sounds like a good idea to me, but if it really is too expensive, I would think converting lines like R7 to light rail, possibly using equipment like the really cool cars of the Route 100 line would be a decent idea. This could be done without a whole lot of infrastructure changes. I just think its kind of silly to be using heavy commuter trains with one-hour headways for transit within the city limits. They're not much good for anything else besides getting to and from work.
Michalovic
..possibly using equipment like the really cool cars of the Route 100 line...
Obviously you are suggesting re-aquiring and rebuilding the Brill Bullet cars. :)
I second the motion!
I hadn't thought of that. Great idea! I had actually been thinking of the cars Route 100 uses now, but the Brill Bullets would be really fun. Every time SEPTA dusts off their PCCs and brings them out for special occasions they're a big hit, so why not the Bullets?
Michalovic
Aren't the Brill Bullets scrapped right now? Also, they are quite loud (at least, that's what I've heard) and they aren't that comfortable. I mean, the PCCs are famous and for special occasions, well, they are cool. Bringing the Brills out once in a while would be cool, though.
The Bullets are all gone from the property, as far as I know. Some have been preserved in museums, others have been scrapped. I don't know if any remain operational at the present time, although I seem to recall a photo in Railfan a year or two back showing one that had been restored somewhere.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Number 205 is running at Rockhill.
Thanks, I thought one of them was there, just couldn't remember.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Car 200 was the only Bullet scrapped, due to an accident at 69th Street back in the mid '80's. The remaining 9 are preserved at museums, in fact, the majority of the Red Arrow rail fleet at the time of SEPTA's takeover has been preserved at various museums. When you have groups of railcars, and there is 9-15 of that group, then they would most likely never see a scrapyard.
What happened to 202? I thought that one was gone too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about using the existing overhead wires and tracks and running
cars like the Norristown ones, except with pantographs, to suburban
station. Have smaller trains running more frequently.
The gummint won't allow light rail and heavy rail to run on the same ROW at the same time; for example, Trenton-Camden light rail service will have to end at 10 PM to open the window for Shared Assets freight trains. (Mixing light and heavy rail equipment would be analogous to allowing cars and trucks to use the same highways.)
Maybe that's why Camden is building a minor league baseball stadium, since Camden County residents won't be able to use the light rail line to go home from a Trenton Thunder game.
If the line really wanted to provide passenger service, it should run Budd RDC service after 10 PM.
That's too bad. However, a good part of the R8 Chestnut Hill line isn't used by freight trains, so maybe there is some hope for that corridor at least.
So there are freight customers on the R7? Where? (never rode it). And where are they on the R8?
There are a number of sidings which are still served by local freights along the R7 Trenton side, but I can't think of any on the Chestnut Hill side. R8 Chestnut Hill has freight service up to the Budd plant, which is about 1/2 mile south of the first stop (Queen Lane) after North Phila.
That idea was kicking around in the mid-80's. An article in The Philadelphia Daily News mentioned a Metro system in Philadelphia. It featured a proposed map with a Northeast Metro, a Chestnut Hill metro (both branching off the Broad Street Subway), utilizing the R-7 route, the R-8 Chestnut Hill West would be realigned to enter center city via the Reading route, and connecting off the R-6 Norristown tracks. Also proposed was an extension of The BSS to National Park, N.J. (that is really far-fetched). The R-3 West Trenton would branch off The Market-Frankford Line in the plan (how will they align the tracks, I don't know, plus either the R-3 or the MFL be regauged, most likely the MFL because of the non-standard guage). Some of these ideas are great, some are...but all you need is cash.
How is the MFL a non-standard guage?
It has a really wide guage, over five feet I think. I have no idea why, and it's really strange because the trains themselves are a lot
narrower than those on the Broad Street subway.
Michalovic
The Market Street el was built to the same 5 foot 2 and a quarter inch gauge as the city streetcars in 1907.
(Trains, Trolleys and Transit; Gerry Williams, 1998)
Now why would it be so expensive to convert the R7 Chestnut Hill East line to subway service. The only new construction needed would be a short connection to the Broad St Subway at Erie Avenue. How much could that cost?
Well let's see. The tunnel connection alone would probably be about 100 mil...and redoing the rest of the 7 for 3rd-rail subway service would probably be quite a bit MORE than that..(since you aren't going to be running silverlines on the BSS)
...and the extra cars to cover the service. Sure you would free up some silverliners but you still need the up front $$$ for the new service.
The only part of the R6 that could be changed to light rail is probably the Bala Cynwyd part. The part to Norristown really shouldn't be. Also, don't you think reducing the Regional Rail lines would reduce the utilization, therefore letting the trains run less often than they do now? I like the way the system is set up now, basically. However, it would be a cheaper fare if they did convert them to light rail lines.
You bring up a lot of good points, Basman. Running light rail trains through 30th St, Suburban Station, and Market East would be pretty hard with platforms designed for commuter trains. Possibly one track might be modfied to handle light rail vehicles if they ever were used to replace any of the regional trains, but I can see that costing alot of money and bureaucratic hassle. I think the idea of turning R7 Chestnut Hill into a subway line by building a short connector tunnel to the Broad Street Subway is a better idea, but I can see how money again is the big constraint. Does anyone know how long a tunnel would be needed? How much would it cost?
As far as the light rail in the BSS tunnels, okay it is a little far-fetched, but its fun to think about.
The main reason I'd like to see some of the regional lines turned into subways or light rail is the headway times. I use the R8 Fox Chase on Sundays and the two-hour headways make it REALLY inconvenient to use. A cheaper-to-run light rail vehicle might be able to make more trips during lower-demand times like weekends.
As for the R6 I think that commuter rail is good for the further reaches, but places like Manayunk and Roxborough might be better served with light rail. In fact, the city wants a light rail line that serves those areas via the art museum and the zoo. I'd support it.
Michalovic
Yeah, I remember looking at the city transit map and it said that they were every 2 hours and such. I would support light rail that way.
Also, for the zoo, I think they should try to make a station by those rails or something. It might not cost as much as making a whole new line. Also, how close is Manayunk to the city. When I think of Manayunk, I think of it as past the Wissahickon Transfer Center, which seems to me a good distance away from the city. Also, the art museum is not really that far away from the suburban station, you know. It's only about a few blocks (at least, I think so). Anyway, I would support more light rail serving the art museum and the zoo, more for the zoo, though, since I don't think the art museum is that crowded at times. Also, how far away from the city is chestnut Hill?
Chestnut Hill is a neighborhood IN the city.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Manayunk is also in the city. I suspect the intended question was how far they are from Center City.
no, I thought they were actually out of Philadelphia, i didn't realize that they were in Philly. Then I do support the lightrail/subway idea, since it is in Philadelphia anyway.
The Art Museum is quite a ways from Suburban.
Comparable distance? Penn Station to Rockefeller Center, I would say.
Chestnut Hill and Manayunk are on different sides of the northwestern section of Philadelphia, Ridge Avenue running through Manayunk, Germantown Avenue running through Chestnut Hill and wide Henry Ave in between.
The Art Museum is quite a ways from Suburban.
Comparable distance? Penn Station to Rockefeller Center, I would say.
That's a personal preference situation. The walk through Logan Circle and up the (Ben Franklin) Parkway is quite pleasant. Tuesday of last week I walked from Penn Station to the Radio City box office and back, up 6th Ave and back 7th, having to fight my way through the crowd of kids outside MTV screaming for Jay-Z. I had 2 tokens in my pocket and felt like a slacker for not riding our beloved subway, but as long as the knees held out, I enjoyed the walk.
High level platforms are not necessarily an issue to using light-rail style vehicles. Look at San Francisco's LRV's which have stairs which raise up to become level boarding for high platforms.
Pittsburgh's LRV's have the same set-up. They have foldable steps that raise up to high platform levels. I have a tape of a ride on the 42S and you can see how well they work with a minumum of delays.
Chuck Greene
This is the irony of Septa previously pushing light rail for the route to Reading. Instead, they should just put a regional rail line there, and seperately think about converting the shorter RR lines (especially the Chestnut hill lines which have no freight issues) to light rail.
If I were a commuter on, say, the R3 from Elwyn, I'd be pretty damn annoyed that Septa wants to spend so much money on a gold plated SVM, talking about a 21st century line so much better than those silly old choo-choo trains, while offering no improvements to those tired old regional rail lines. And the are pretty tired and sad when you compare them to other commuter rail around the country.
Well, you see, the DVARP was really pushing them to build that line, and to make it a third rail powered line. Also, they are also making improvments to the regional rail lines. Didn't you hear how they recently build the new station, Thorndale, for the R5. Also, there are new trains. In addition to that, they are trying to fix the Strafford Station, which was in a fire a couple of years to go. Also, they are renovating the Radnor Station and making more 200 series (rail to bus) routes. I agree that the SVM should really be a regional rail line (maybe an R4?), but as I said before, DVARP really pushed them into making it 3rd rail. Personally, I think everyone is being really mean to SEPTA, expecting them to do everything at once. Besides, they are extending the rt 100 to King of Prussia, and that's more important for a lot of people than this rail line from Reading right now, for instance, college students from Villanova. Of course, sorry people from reading, I dont' know how far away that is, but 124 and 125 are really crowded, and the 123 doesn't help much. The big thing to improve that will be an extension of the line to King of Prussia. Also, I'm sure that it's important to have rail service to reading. Isn't the SVM suppose to be a system rather than just one line?
Yes, it's good to see the extension to King of Prussia being worked on. My theory - Septa thinks of the Rte. 100 as light rail so it gives it lots of attention.
Consider Overbrook. Must be one of the heaviest used stations outside of center city. They are rebuilding it - with low platforms. Keep in mind that Overbrook is the next station after 30th, so putting in high platforms in this high use station (on a line with no freight) would only require that the traps be lowered/raised one station further out. But Septa does not have that kind of vision. That's pathetic. How much more would it have cost?
Exactly right. What does SEPTA have against high platforms outside of Center City? I mean they can't use low-floor commuter cars like they do in some western European countries, because they would be unable to platform at 30th, Suburban, Market East and Temple and a few other stations. Overbrook and other stations in the suburbs deserve high platforms!
Well when I see a brand-new tram running in regular passenger service on Girard, Erie, Germantown or some other avenue, boulevard, road or street in Philadlphia, I'll believe it. I'm praying that trolley restoration on Girard and Erie Avenues doesn't become the Second Avenue Subway of Philadelphia: Promised year after year, studied to death, and never done.
But while SEPTA is saying they will definitely return trams to Girard Avenue (route 15), they should put Erie & Torresdale Avenues (route 56) on the front burner as well. Why 56? Because Erie and Torresdale Avenues are pretty wide and Erie has exclusive transit lanes.
But what I'd really like to see 56 be "made" into part of the Broad Street Subway. At some point east of Broad Street, the Erie Avenue tracks could be lowered into a subway and connect to the Broad Street subway on the same level. The two middle tracks and platforms could be adapted to handle LRVs, while express trains could use the outside tracks at Erie Station. That would make it a much better commuting option from the Tacony neighborhood. And only a tiny portion of 56 would have to be abandoned, the seven blocks west of Broad Street.
Since ridership on the Borad Street subway is down, that might not be a bad idea. The local service on the line could be replaced with light rail, which would branch out along 56 and other routes, kind of like the subway-surface routes do in West Philly. (I can see a branch along the current R8 line to Fox Chase.) The express service would stay a heavy subway, hopefully linking up with the Roosevelt corridor route if it ever gets built.
The Roosevelt Boulevard subway...now THAT is Philly's always-studied never-built answer to NYC's 2nd Avenue subway!
Michalovic
Oh yes, the Roosevelt Blvd subway is still on the table. But if you go to the DVARP web site, they have a link to the new study on Roosevelt Blvd. Putting LRVs on the Broad Street Local tracks is a good idea too. I would like to see the R8 Fox Chase line coverted to light rail as well.
okay, I guess I might be the only one who might not agree with this. For one thing, the service would be more complicated, by having the Broad Street and Broad Ridge lines on the same tracks. Don't forget, the Broad Street line runs pretty often, especially during rush hour. Now, I don't know much about the R8, but I think that it is fine the way it is. There has to be a connection to the city, and where would the light rail line go? It certainly can't go where the regional rail lines meet at 30th St.
The R8 Fox Chase line has only one track between Cheltenham Junction and Fox Chase and service operates only every two hours on Sundays. Considering that it travels through Northeast Philly and doesn't leave the city, it might be more useful for this line to weekend headways that are considerable more frequent than every two hours. The Metroliner has more frequent service.
Light rail to Fox Chase would be cheaper for SEPTA to operate and passengers would be able to pay lower fares to use it. To connect it to the Broad Street line, the Fox Chase tracks could turn south on a railroad ROW that runs from the R8 Olney Station to Erie Av where they could rise up to street level to join the Route 56 trolley tracks. Then LRVs would turn west and head for Broad Street. The Erie Av tracks would go underground at some point east of Broad St and enter Erie Station on the local tracks. All service to and from Fern Rock would enter Erie on the express tracks.
I plan to write all of my responses to previous messages here:
I doubt you could fit many more trains into the BSS. The express tracks run trains twice as frequently as on the local tracks during rush hour, and I don't know how much more service it can hold. If anything was to be added to the express tracks, the best idea would be to put Ridge trains on the local tracks, and add more Walnut express trains.
If the Broad Street Subway were to connect to a new branch (Fox Chase, New York Short Line, Roosevelt Boulevard, etc.) I would rather see that connection north of Olney than at Erie. If the connection was north of Olney, then all trains would still stop at Olney, hence giving it better service. Olney is the largest station outside the Central City, and could not handle having no green-light trains stop there (Fern Rock could, though). And if one were to split the Walnut Express trains between Olney/Fern Rock and the new branch, that would mean less service for both sides. A connection between Olney and Fern Rock, possibly out of the southern portal at Fern Rock, would work better. It also may be cheaper to construct.
I do not like the idea of Light Rail running on the Boulevard. Though the cheapest alternative, it probably would be slower than driving ones car even in the height of rush hour, if it would have to stop at all of the traffic lights, and at station platforms. If getting to station platforms involved crossing two lanes of traffic, that will annoy some passengers. Having to transfer (though still the case right now) will annoy some prospective passangers. Also, the Boulevard is a dangerous road for motorists and pedestrians, adding light rail, with a fixed guideway, can only make things worse.
I think the main reason for making the new northeast line branch at Erie is that there are already tunnel branch openings there, built as part of the original subway in case branches needed to be built in the future. But it wouldn't be good for the neighborhood around Olney station to lose all that traffic. In my own dream world, there would be the branch at Erie for the Roosevelt corridor AND an extension further north from maybe Fern Rock, going as far north as population density would make it useful, maybe even into Cheltanham.
Personally, I'd rather have a subway underneath Roosevelt Boulevard than the light rail line, too. You're right, the Boulevard is confusing enough as it is, what with its inner and outer lanes and all. I think light rail, having to stop for traffic lights and such would be too slow, when real rapid transit is needed in the corridor.
The norhteast is pretty densely populated, too, and I think ridership would be high enough to warrant a subway over light rail. (The ridership estimates back this up with numbers.) And lastly, I like the pretty tree-lined median as it is. It's a nice breather of a green space in the city.
I'd be happy just to have the extension of the Market-Frankford line to Bustleton that is part of the proposal. That would bring it within walking distance of my house, and I wouldn't even need to use the Roosevelt line.
I have my own dream plan for Philly's subways that I made with Photoshop while I was supposed to be working. It's too big to post, but if anyone wants to see it, send me an email.
Olney could be used if the Fox Chase line were to be converted to light rail and connected to the Broad Street Line. There's a junction north of Olney, too. Some connecting trackage could be built on Olney Avenue to link the subway tracks to the Fox Chase line. And express service could be retained all the way from Olney to Walnut-Locust. But I would still like to see Route 56 connected to the subway.
The plan calls for the present flying junctions north of Erie not to be used, and new interlockings to be built, with connections both to the local tracks and to the express tracks, not unlike the Ridge-Spur junctions at Fairmount. If the present junctions were to be used, then that would involve all local and Boulevard trains to squeeze into the local track. For any use of these junctions, crossovers would have to be built south of Erie, and the following alignment would probably work best:
A: Pattison to Boulevard local.
B: Fern Rock to Walnut, express south of Erie, local at Hunting Park, Wyoming and Logan.
C: Ridge Express to Olney or Fern Rock.
D: Maybe some Fern Rock to Walnut full express if there is any room left.
Personally I think that is one kick@$$ idea. That would be totally possible too - only thing is, the BSS line would have to be proof-of-payment. Unless it is already. But there's nothing wrong with having heavy rail be POP...many European cities do it taht way. Having LRVs on the outside locals, and having the Expresses being connected to the R7 would RULE!
Also for the people who've mentioned about LRVs not sharing tracks with regular rail; they don't need to. Some of these SEPTA routes are four-tracked with room for more. Two LR tracks on the outside and 2-3 in the middle, now is that so hard?
The BSS is not proof of payment. You pay before you enter the stations. But that could work too. POP could be done on LRVs running on the surface, however.
If you are talking about the regional rail, those 4 tracked sections really belong to amtrak, and amtrak trains run there frequently.
If you're talking about the R-2 Newark, the R-5 Downingtown, and the R-7 Trenton, then those tracks are owned by Amtrak. The 4-track Reading trunk, that is owned by SEPTA.
The MTA has sure wasted 2 months of "testing" out the R-142's.....
Probably they are still "testing" as I'm typing. These trains were supposed to be working by the beginning of november/end of october, but the so-called "testing" is NOT DONE......4 weeks,huh? sounds like 4 months to me.
answer this:
Is the "testing" complete??
The testing is not complete yet. Why? Because THE R142'S ARE CRAP!!!
Have a nice day,
z(anti-R142)man179
And you write this because LUDDITES ARE STUPID.
I guess Kawasaki and Bombardier are gonna sue the MTA for not running their "high-tech" trains.
No R142's= No money for Kawasaki and Bombardier.
Many people are sick and tired of riding the same boring, morning train to work, so they want a little more "pop" into their commute
BUT Who knows?
Testing is probably gonna take a year or so.
You don't get it, do you? They're not toys, they're transit vehicles. You should applaud the thorough testing, it's for your benefit.
Mark
WHOA... this is news to me... you mean
someone actually has been WAITING for
the r142's to PASS "testing".. quit
waiting.. have a tootsie pop.
hahahahahaha...
South Ferry im just waitin for them to finish cuz i dont like ridin the R62's and the D to school......They are rusty and creaky....besides, They Are Old....
The R-62s suck. Now. After the TA watered them down to near crawling speed and the animals (in general. There are, of course, exceptions to this statement) that ride them saw fit to scratch the pattern out of the tin walls and punch huge and piercing dents in the walls and cab doors. I can't be riding the same one car every time.
I remember when the R-62's doors opened with a pop and they sped up and down the east side express when I went to Bronx Science. BTW, what happened to that popping sound similar to saying the word "Clock?" Now the doors just lazily open if they feel like it.
Same deal with the R-68s. To the letter.
Old does not necessarily mean bad. Give me a Silver Fox (What most people call Redbird) R-17 or higher any day. They are more comfortable (more comfortable than those sculpted skinny seats on the 62s), easier on the eye (with their soothing deep red doors and beige walls instead of that cold bare alloy finish), and more functional (with the swinging standee straps instead of fixed grab bars) than the new and rebuilt IND/BMT rolling stock. After nearly forty years on the road, the Silver Fox cars offer just as good a ride as they did when I started riding them nearly 25 years ago with my dad. Maybe even better.
When you are about twelve years older than high school age as I am, you will begin to appreciate your history a bit more and see why new doesn't necessarily mean improved.
does anyone know where the jamaica yard is located (other than saying in jamaica) it would really help me if someone could tell me where it is exactly. it is very hard to find the jamaica yard, because it is not layed up in plain sight.
thank you for reading my question
Umm.. but it IS layed up in plain sight.
Not to mention an easy surf-and-find on this site.
Jamaica Yard is actually located in Kew Gardens(Union Tpke. station E/F)
The two entrances are at:
78th Crescent and Grand Central Pkwy(one block south of Queens Blvd. by ConEd building).
Union Tpke and 138th Street.
The best picture views are along the Van Wyck Expwy between Jewel Av and Union Tpke.
Jamaica Yard
78-15 Grand Central parkway
Forest Hills, NY 11375
Was at the 7-11 in Yonkers off the Saw Mill Pkway and found a Subway Series T-shirt starring 2 R17s, one with the 7 and the other with the 4 signage. The numberboards on both looked like 6688 deliberately blurred out. Was this planned and if so, how much is made for the museum, IE copyrights, etc?
GASP!! There's a 7-11 in YONKERS?!??!
Do tell..
No, the museum had nothing to do with it. We can't claim
to own the intellectual property rights to the concept of
drawing a generic R-17, even if our car is the inspiration (who
knows?)
P.S. Did you count the doors carefully? Maybe it was your R-16 :)
I saw another subway series t-shirt with what appeared to be
an amalgam of an R-32, R11 and a touch of R10.
Right, Jeff.
I'd assume that these Subway Series T-shirt makers have downloaded generic subway car images (perhaps even from this site?) and modified the route signs, body colors etc., of the cars to produce their desired graphics.
BMTman
A few years ago, one of the local banks put out a Christmas Tree ornament with our name on it. When that was brought to our attention, I was able to get a nice "donation" for the unauthorized use of our name. However, as Jeff said, nothing here.
Yes there is a 7-11 in Yonkers. The McLean Avenue exit on the Saw Mill. The R17 is definable even though the car itself is a front to side view with one set of door panels present, with a mirrored car opposing it with the 7. I doubt they used an R16, the cars are too narrow. There was a film crew at the TMNY a couple of months back for a commercial filming but I have few details on that except they weren't affiliated with MLB.
What was the original Grand Central like, did Park (Fourth) Avenue go through/around it and did the subway have a direct connection.
When were the yards of the new GCT covered? How long did it take? Did Park Avenue pass above the yards alone when the viaduct was completed?
How far did the open yards go? Did anything have to be demolished to build them or was it all still empty?
What stood on the site of the MetLife (nee Pan Am) building before it was built in 1962? And what was at the end of the concourse where the escalator is now?
Finally, is there a comprehensive history of GC that answers all of these questions and more and is available for loan at NYPL?
>>>What stood on the site of the MetLife (nee Pan Am) building before it was built in 1962? And what was at the end of the concourse where the escalator is now? <<<
AFAIK the Pan Am Building (i refuse to call it anything else) was built using air rights..
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe the site of the Pan Am/Met Life building was used by a building called the Grand Central Palace, was functioned as a sort of convention center. The New York Auto Show was held there until the Coliseum (now also demolished) opened in 1956.
I seem to remember a big stink when the Pan Am Building was being built because it would ruin the look of GCT. I think there was nothing above it beforehand. But I could be wrong...
Well, the Grand Central Palace, or whatever building was there, was not more than a few stories tall; probably it was no higher than the roofline of the terminal itself. I'll look around and see if someone has posted photos of the area as it appeared before 1964.
And try to get some photos of the north side of the main atrium.
Yes, there is an older Middleton book on the subject. It will answer most of the early history questions. A shorter version occurs in his "When The Steam RRs Electrified", which covers all the terminal and tunnel electrifications.
I hate to ask this question again. I know it has been ask alot of times in this board. When the R62A gets transfer to the Flushing line, will they be any problem controling them on that line? Because I been wearing that the R62A when they were first deliver to this line for testing I heard that these fleets had problems going on the Steinway Tubes. What was the problem that they couldn't run up those tunnels?
IIRC it was a problem with guard lights being knocked off. It has since been fixed.
Peace,
ANDEE
What does IIRC means?
If I recall correctly
The man who made who made electric rapid transit possible.
http://www.geocities.com/mellowone_99/sprauge139.jpg
If railfaning was a religion, he would be a god.
Not a nice thing to say on Sunday.
However, our hobby was his creation.
I thought his name was Frank and he invented the first electric trolley, the first trolley system (Richmond), some sort of axle hung motor used on trolleys, Multiple Unit Train Control and the depth charge to name a few. There is a book called "Trolley Car Treasury" and the 3 chapter is entitled Frank Sprague. This book is available in most public libraries and contains the previous linked picture.
His name was Frank Julian Sprague.
He did not invent the trolley. No one person did. Sprague
is credited with the first viable implementation of a trolley
system (Richmond VA, 1888). Prior to that there were about
8 experimental systems, all of which did not succeed at being
more cost-effective than horse-drawn street railways. Sprague's
primary contribution to Richmond was the so-called "wheelbarrow",
motor mounting system and good, solid engineering and re-engineering.
In the Richmond system Sprague borrowed heavily from VanDepole,
whose 1887 system in Montgomery Alabama might have been the
first successful system had not a freak fire burned down the
powerhouse.
Sprague invented the electric elevator, a concept which led him to
develop multiple-unit control. Unfortunately, he never received
the sort of layperson recognition as, for example, Edison.
I remember that his first "wheelbarrow" machine ran on a 200 foot track in an New York City alley. On a test run a fuse blew and one of his backers, named Gould, pulled out. However on his Richmond system he used VanDepole's design for an overhead collector which eventually evolved into the trolley pole we all know and love.
Does Anybody Know what units will run On the Northern D line?
R68's, based out of the Concourse Yd.
Thank You
For those of you who don't know the Port Jervis Line runs on the Southern Tier Line from Suffern to Port Jervis. The Line also boasts the last 6 remaining semaphore signals on the east coast. Here's the lo down.
MORE ON THE SOUTHERN TIER RUMOR FRONT...
It was reported yesterday that Norfolk Southern had moved the 25K intermodal train away from the Southern Tier, in favor of the more expeditious Penn Route. There is now word from a shortline source that indicates Norfolk Southern will indeed pull the 46G and 47G off of the Southern Tier, at least the east end of the route. The source tells ERN that the train will be routed via the former Conrail Lehigh Line west through Allentown and north to Lehighton, where it will be handled via the Reading Blue Mountain & Northern Lehigh Line. Routing from there is still up in the air, with one source indicating a routing to Binghamton, New York, another via the Lehigh Line through to Corning, New York. This report is yet-to-be confirmed and word from Norfolk Southern is expected on Monday.
Another report that has come from Canadian Pacific and Norfolk Southern sources is that Canadian Pacific has met with Harrisburg Division officials over the fate of the Southern Tier. There is no confirmation that NS is selling the line, however the fact that traffic continues to be pulled from the route and high-level meetings between Canadian Pacific and Norfolk Southern have generated a number of rumors.
Norfolk Southern officially says that the line is still in the railroad's future and that much of the hype is just that, hype. Although an inquiry with the railroad may yield a response, historically a line sale is kept under wraps until officially sealed. We will report more on the Southern Tier later in the coming week.
I bet Metro-North is already talking to CP too! They got screwed by Conrail when THEY put the Southern Tier line up...They were VERY interested, and apparently offered Conrail quite a bit of cash for the Port-Suffern portion of the line. Where did you see this? If Metro North could own the tracks, that could open up dramatic service improvements around here...
Hi Stef:
I have a off topic question, Yes it's off topic, shoot me! :o)
I have a alternatives page on my site, TransiTALK, that shows different views of the city. Hap-Hazardly, I ended up at the Jackson Avenue Station and ended up taking a city view of the Projects there.
Can you tell me the official name for that housing project over there, since I believe that is where you reside?
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Which side was it on?
St. Mary's Park Houses
649 Westchester Avenue
Bronx, NY 10455
Adams, John Houses
731 Tinton Avenue
Bronx, NY 10455
It's Saint Mary's!
Thank You Very Much!
Trevor
Not to be harsh, Trevor, but don't you think a question of this nature should be taken up via personal e-mail and not posted for general consumption?
BMTman
Nope, Because Stef does not provide a e-mail addy!
Trevor Logan
Well, I could have contacted him off-line for ya.
But no biggie. He didn't seem to mind.
BMTman
I usually provide an e-mail address, Trevor. Try steffan_c@acedsl.com.
-Stef
Thanks Stef and BMTman, now I know for future references!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Stef lives at 6688 River Street....Room 17.
Eh? Oh my. I didn't realize I called her home. Don't joke about it, I might just set up a bed in that car one of these days!!!
-Stef
We all know how fond you are of that car, just as I'm fond of 1689. Too bad Shoreline couldn't get their hands on an R-10.
I know. Never say never. One never knows what might occur at Shore Line. We can find a playmate for the R-17 if there's interest in it.
-Stef
I still remember bringing up the idea of Shoreline acquiring a playmate for 1689 20 years ago. Eddie Sarkauskas just laughed.
Well she seems to enjoy being the meat in the sandwich. I thoughly enjoyed the 3 car ride (Hi-V, R-9, Lo-V) during Autumn in NY days.
A Red Bird single would be nice, or how about a Slant 40 mated to a SI R-44s single (the 40 would come out with her mate, but the 44 could come out anytime), also Hippos were singles when delivered. My point is that there will be a few SINGLE options as these cars get retired because mated pairs (or four car sets e.g. R-46) are a problem for all the museums (space, cost, etc.). I would think a R-32 would make a lot of since ... we don't have any Budds.
I also hope all you trolley guys are thinking about cars like the Boeing LRV and other more recent stuff.
BTW, I wouldn't mind a Hippo nearly as much if the front door was always open AND I got a little handle time on her. She would feel right a home lumbering down the line to Short Beach.
Mr t__:^)
Pork was right. On the downtown side of the station is St. Mary's Park Houses. The opposite side has John Adams. I'm in St. Mary's on the downtown side in the building nearest to the station. It would probably explain my advwentures from the railfan (apartment) window....
-Stef
I've been preparing some material on the cars and lines honored by the TA for the '64 World's Fair and wanted to see what happened to the Q-types that were rehabbed at the time.
I looked at Dave's roster of the Transit Museum and got a surprise! According to the roster, 1622 A-B-C were converted back to gate cars 1407, 1273 and 1404, while the Q currently at the museum is 1612C.
Is this right? 1622 was the Q-type that was fixed up and painted up for "Transit Day" a third of a century ago. If so, this unit certainly has had a busy life--from BU to Q to pioneer museum car and back to BU again.
Actually 1407 was 1622A, 1273 was 1622B, but 1404 was 1603C. The original 1622C was 1265.
They must have spent much money rebuilding the rebuilds, It is too bad that they did not restore the clerestory roofs, put Van Dorn couplers back on, and find original trucks for the three cars. They did do a good job as far as they went!
Tomorrow I will shoot the A line night & day with 5 hour formats each like i did last week on the L J M E & the 7 line during the
world series & especially those express runs! the # 7 tape was shot two days a total of 10 hours of shooting !
I am posting from kinkos at 42nd street while i still have time.
Today i would like to thank mr newkirk "south ferry" Mark W & all of the fine people who showed us around the coney
island yard! We shot off many fine digital pictures of this wonderful event !!
No rest for the weary & tired feet on to far rockway tomorrow morning then the 5 tuesday the 2 wednesday the 4 & 6
& then maybe hopefully the N train runs until my Q R & N tape runs out on a 5 hour format as well !!
I wish i could have met the webmaster today as well . Anyway see you back on this forum soon BACK TO WORK HERE
IN MY HOMETOWN ( love those redbirds ) !!! thankz salaam allah
'Nuff said!
10/29/2000
Salaam Allah,
It was nice meeting you today. Salaam was nice to me, Mark W. and others in the group. Seems this was the first time he ever set foot inside the confines of Coney Island Shops. Very much like locking an 8 year old in Toys-R-Us !
His face lit up when he saw the D-Types in the shops. Said the last time he saw them was when he was 8 years old. The B-types under restoration as well as the other retired museum cars brought the same response.
Salaam's a regular guy as far as I'm concerned.Whenyou speak the language of transit, you'll be surprised how much we all are alike.
To all of those who missed this tour, you missed a good one. The highlight was "Franken-slant", as coined by Mark W. The R-40 modified with the R-40 slant nose . WayneMrR40Slant would have loved that!
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, sorry I missed you guys. I was recovering from a long night of Halloween-weekend operations at Branford. I'm sure you can empathize :-).
BMTman
thank you sir i made it home safe my videos & pictures look vey good!
When you did the 7 line, did you happen to catch a garbage train between Courthouse and Hunters Point?
Salaam, I forgot to warn you about the Canarsie Line. There is a GO in affect in the evenings where the line becomes two separate shuttle runs. At 10:30 pm till the early morning hours one section runs from 14th Street & 8th Avenue to Myrtle Ave. in Brooklyn. From there a shuttle bus transports customers to the B'way Junction station where service runs from there to Rockaway Parkway.
There is rehab work being done simultaneously on all stations between Myrtle and B'way Junction.
I probably forgot to point that out in my post regarding lines for you to shoot.
BMTman
This morning, there was a system-wide MVM failure (CRash in computer talk.) A supervisor said it was for time change but I think otherwise-- One of my PCs uses Windows95 which is older than NT 4.0 WOrk Station (Service Pack 3) and it has changed the time on the fly! Even Y2K was no problem .
I find it funny- they want to reduce the number of booths (and thereby fewer attended entrances) in favor of MVMs and yet they cant even handle a twice a year time change.
Support your friendly Station Agent! we dont crash at the time change! SUre you may wait in a line but we are there not like the eexpnesive piece of junk they call an MVM
Yes, all Windows PCs will autoset the correct time today. The MVMs are running Windows NT 4.0. Channel 4 showed a screen shot of an MVM with the infamous NT BSOD (blue screen of death)
I like it ! this proves that we are needed! Imagine going to busy Times Square, Penn Station, Grand Central on a Monday AM Rush and seeing the BSOD!
Write your councilman, write the state politicans. Support your station agents! We can always sell you a token!
I prefer to have the technician fix bugs as opposed to shunning technology and convenience.
And don't forget that it is only SPECUALATION that it had something to do with the time change. There have been a few time changes since they were introduced and this has not been a problem before.
Peace,
ANDEE
There have been a few time changes since they were introduced and this has not been a problem before.
Today's NY Times Metro Briefs says they still don't know what caused the problem. Al O'Leary stated that last year's time change didn't cause a problem.
There was a problem this Spring on the main system ... ended up being caused by a person. He did something, then forgot to undo it the following week.
Mr t__:^)
Well sometimes I hear about Stations Agents that show the red gunshot wound of death. I don't think they can sell me any tokens either.
Mike,
That was totally UNCALLED for.
Maybe you should just stay on your side of the Hudson.
You are one sick dude!
I am just pointing out that humans fail too, often times just like a computer. My point is that we need both humans and machines because both bring something to the customer service table. Humans are resistant to date changes, MVM's are resistant to bullets.
Michael, I assure you that if you shoot an MVM, it will die, just like the unfortunate station agent. Your comment was about as off-color and totally unwarrented as one can get.
BTW, the MVM crash problem isn't the machine, it's the OS that was used. Microsoft=crash. Remember, NT is short for Windows New Technology. Every Windows-based OS that Microsoft has ever produced crashes. And Service Packs have been known to introduce new "undocumented features". (That's MS-speak for "crash".)
Well I thought everyone's negitive BSOD comments were in bad taste. I happen to like Windows and I'm sick of it getting picked on so I made the exact same observation in reverse. Its a good system, just give it a chance.
I'd like to see MVMs work with MacOS.
OK, I've stopped laughing.
I'd like to see MVMs work with MacOS.
Why not UNIX?
I was being SARCASTIC
Think of that before you wait a month to respond to something.
I was being SARCASTIC.
Sometimes, it's hard to tell the difference.
Think of that before you wait a month to respond to something.
Sorryabout the delay. Just got my computer running again after something on an AOL setup disk corrupted my system files. In retrospect, it would have been easier to reformat C: and re-install everything.
Something on an AOL setup disk....That should have been your warning not to install it.
-Hank
Sometimes, it's hard to tell the difference.
No it isn't. I was clearly touting the superiority of Windows over the MacOS.
>>> I was clearly touting the superiority of Windows over the MacOS. <<<
WOW! Now that is really sarcasm!
Tom
Are you a shill for Microsoft? NT is far more stable than 9x, but it still crashes. COmputers crash, it's a fact of life. It's also a fact that there are more reliable operating systems that could be used. The fact that all the machines went down simultaneously indicates a problem with the server computer. It's not very likely that it had anything to do with the time change, which was coincidental.
-Hank
Again just dumbassed anti-Microsoft rhetoric.
If Microsoft is so horrible, then why is it that it's used EVERYWHERE?
Since it doesn't seem that MS quality declined from an all time high (quite the opposite), why did everybody embrace Windows in the first place?
Conspiracy theory?
Its used everywere because gates makes sure it does. He owns 90% of the PC industery. I cant wait till his company is broken up.
Remember that windows sucks. Win95, 98 and NT all cause problems.
Im sure 2000 and ME are better but If I had room on my hard drive I'll
install Linux.
Do you know someone working for Microshit?
It's got nothing at all to do with Gates owning the world. Name a product for the PC that makes it as easy to use as Windows does. The internet would not be nearly as popular as it is now if people had to type in unix or dos commands to use it.
-Hank
Name a product for the PC that makes it as easy to use as Windows does.
It's called MacOs, and it's significantly EASIER. Windows 95 = Mac 84.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mac's aggrivate me to no end. They have absolutely ZERO functionality. Its like a special car that moves in straight line at a fixed speed with a single button control vs. a car that can turn and accelerate with the traditional "complex" controls. And those single button mice are such a waste when my hand can operate 4 buttons and a wheel.
And those single button mice are such a waste when my hand can operate 4 buttons and a wheel.
I'll grant you that. I've installed a Logitech wheel mouse on my G3 and my son's iMac came with a two or three button optical mouse.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a 5 button optical mouse. I wonder if I can get some foot pedals too. I have also been collecting used PC parts and I've strung E-IDE cables around my room like christmas lights. I've trying to get the school to classify my room as a computer lab.
I assume you count the wheel as a button, or there's a middle button, and you have a thumb button. What's the fifth button?
The wheel acts as a button.
Yes, but that creates only 4 buttons, like my mouse. Where's the fifth?
I have a new MS optical mouse. There are 2 side buttons, 2 main buttons and a wheel button.
Where's the fifth?
You mean you never heard of the 5th wheel ?
Mr t__:^)
Does the right button actually do anything or is it like the right button in Windows 3.1?
It's generally quite useful. I'm not especially familiar with Windows 3.1 so I can't compare.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In Windows 3.1, the right mouse button did nothing in the OS. Programs may have used it, but it wasn't as common.
Does the right mouse button do anything at the OS level (the Finder)?
Yes. On my G3, running OS 8.5, there are seven options when used in the Finder, of which two have submenus.
Help
New Folder
View đ
Clean Up
Arrange đ
View Options...
Change Desktop Background...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've used the MacOS and there's nothing easier about it.
having to drag a disk to the trash to eject it as opposed to a physical button. The lack of a right click menu. The taskbar is much easier than that program menu.
As for Macintosh 84 being Windows 95, I won't doubt that the Macintosh was once far superior to the PC, but those days are far over.
Now all that Apple can do is sell oddly shaped computers to consumers for whom color is more important than compatibility and convenience.
Now wait just one minute all you guys with short memories,
The Windows operating system is based on work that resulted in ....
The MAC OS, that's right .... and between MAC OS & Windows we saw ...
OS2 ... that's right IBM & Bill had a big fight. Bill grabbed his base ball & batt and left town.
The Windows III was fairly easy to customize, and was DOS friendly.
Windows 2000 & NT are for dumb users, i.e. idiots. To customize it you need a rocket scientist. Have you tried to format a disk disk recently ... how about back up a group of files in one sub-directory with only the changed files being copied to a floppy. Oh Oh a floppy what's that.
Mr t__:^)
The original Mac OS is an almost exact copy of Xerox's Xenix.
But it's not what is generally refered to as a PC. And since Apple decided not to license their technology all those years ago, prices never came down to competetive levels. While I agree that Win9x is just the MacOS on a PC platform, both concepts were stolen from an old Xerox 'paperless office' system.
Macs excel in areas such as illustration and desktop publishing. PCs are for everything else.
-Hank
The other problem is that Apple decided against using an Intel 8088 based chip. Any "PC" can use Windows, OS/2 and any Unix based OS and all the software that does with them. Litterally can't install and run Mac software on a "PC" because the machine language used by the programmes is not compatable with the chip design. You need an emulator. This is why Mac's are so ostrisized, they are running on a different guage and a different voltage.
That's because Bill & Steve had a big fight. Steve trusted Bill when he knew full well where he got the original code.
Mr t__:^)
I don't know what you're talking about.
Apple and Microsoft were never in league until Microsoft decided to invest money in Apple a few years ago (Microsoft needs competition for those antitrust freaks).
MS and IBM were in league and both OS/2 and Windows 1.0 and 2.0 were collaborative efforts.
MS decided to break their relationship. Windows NT was Microsoft answer to the OS/2 that it and IBM once worked on.
Windows 95 had a lot of things based on the Mac OS, but there were enough differences that it didn't matter. Apple sued Microsoft for software similarities before they even knew what Windows 4.0 was supposed to look like, but they lost.
All right,
I've programmed assembly language on the Intel 8088/8086 family of processors under MS-DOS and I've also programmed Motorola 68000 assembly language under various versions of the Amiga operating system, and to a lesser extent on the Macintosh. There's simply no comparison: The Intel is a complete piece of crap, and that is one of a couple of fundamental reasons I avoid programming on PCs these days in general. If I need a custom piece of software I use the Amiga. Macintosh is out of the question since I don't own one (used to program occasionally on school Macintoshes and on other peoples' Macintoshes).
-Robert King.
Whatever the point of that little missive was, it was uncalled for, inappropriate, and just plain stupid, which honestly doesn't surprise me.
-Hank
as of 6pm-per WNBC TV-4 they are still 90% down. WNBC says NYCT does not know why they crashed but "they hope they'lll be up by the end of the night."
As I have said before-- some of us may be slow, sure you have to wait in line, but we are there! we dont crash- There may be some of us like Keystone Pete encountered that are bad apples but most of us are nice people.
Pete: I regret you met one of the bad apples. Reading a novel in the booth is against the rules and if a supervisor had seen this person, they could have faced discipline.
10/29/2000
That's funny, the two MVM's at Avenue X (F-line) were OOS. One had the bsod and the other had the Windows NT 4 screen.
But the MVM's at Penn Station (1,2,3,9) were working normal at 5:00PM tonight.
Bill "Newkirk"
To All SubTalkers: please e-mail me off-site with any MVMs that are still down or crashed again. TWU New Directions is working to alert politicians that we are still needed.( How would people get into the subway with HEETs and no one to sell them a card or even just a token.
You are just a middleman (or woman), you still have to use a computer to get the card, which can crash just as easily. It doesn't because it's been around longer and has had more bugs worked out. I prefer to connect to the computer directly, since a computer is going to be involved anyway.
"Support your friendly Station Agent! we dont crash at the time change! SUre you may wait in a line but we are there not like the expnesive piece of junk they call an MVM"
Why is there this feeling in some quarters that one has to slam and denounce the MVM in order to preserve the jobs of station agents? How many times does it have to be said: THE EXISTENCE OF METROCARD MACHINES DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN THE ELIMINATION OF STATION AGENTS! Washington's Metro has ALWAYS used card machines exclusively, from Day One, and yet every station has at least one station agent.
Argue for the retention of station agents for what they can DO for the passengers and the system -- an extra set of eyes and ears in the station, and a person to answer passengers' questions and give directions. Don't argue for the removal of machines that the TA has already bought -- the money isn't going to come back to the TA and end up in your pay packet! Don't argue for blatant featherbedding, retaining a station agent in each station for the PURPOSE of giving people jobs. The natural result of that argument is that there should be a conductor/guard in each pair of cars like there were before MUDC!
Thanks for an intelligent reply. We do not advocate featherbedding but rather giving customers the extra safety we provide. A machine can not call for help, we can. A machine can not give travel directions if a G.O. is in effect.
A machine can not call for help, we can.
Yes it can. Emergency call buttons and failure detection (if the machine crashes, it will stop responding, if it doesn't respond, then the control center will know something is awry).
A machine can not give travel directions if a G.O. is in effect.
Yes it can.
http://www.nyct.org/nyct/service/subsrvno.htm
Is that information not being dispensed by a machine? Like the one in front of you right now?
A machine can not give travel directions if a G.O. is in effect.
I have to take issue with this. Last time I asked an SA for directions due to a GO, all I got was a lot of "I don't know, sir" I would have gotten more help from a machine.
-Hank
Some Station Agents need to go to charm school, but the Subway-Buff isn't one of them.
Mr t__:^)
Well I went on the CI tour today. I met:
Mark W.
1 SOUTH FERRY 9
Bill Newkirk
and the one and only, SALAAMALLAH!!!!
As for the tour, it was great as we saw many vintage cars and also present cars of today. Went up in the tower and spoke to the people over. All in all, I had a good time. Next time, I will bring my camcorder.
Train#1415Mike
I'll give you one hint....... He went gaga over the railfan window in the D-Type.......LOL
heypaul???? ;-)
Just kidding, Mark. I'm glad it went well. Maybe I'll catch the trip on the next go 'round.
BMTman
Well I fortunately made it too. I was so worried I wouldn't be able to make it in time from Sea Cliff but I actually got there early. I took my LIRR train from Sea Cliff 7:16am, and arrived at Jamaica on time. Right behind it was the train to Penn. Pretty fast ride into Penn, even in the East River tunnels. Alot of noise though, it sounded like the train had flat wheels.
Walked on over to 34th street and got the F. It was a very nice ride, and the view from the high concrete El at Smith-9th was breathtaking.
After that it was just alot of stops then finally Ave X. The place was very easy to find, and I managed to get there 9:20am, one of the first.
The tour was very nice, and I got to know alot of things about trains (mechanically) that I didn't know, like how they are coupled, the electric traction system,etc, and how repairs are made.
The shops were huge, with many trucks as well as cars (mostly B division) being repaired.
The yard was nice too, and the tower was a busy place, since they control all the lines that go to Stillwell after Dekalb's jurisdiction ends.
At the end we were given caps, which came in quite useful today with the chilly conditions.
On the way back i took an F train to Stillwell. I saw there was an R32 "N" sitting there. So I took the N up the Sea Beach. Nice open cut ride. We ran local on 4th ave. But what I really wanted was to experience the G.O. The N train arrived at Dekalb on the bridge track, with the sign above saying "Bridge-Broadway", even though the N was now traveling over the B.
Nice ride over the bridge and the R32 really flew down that curve after Grand st. But my favorite part was the 34TH-W4TH dash.
It was my first time on an R32 in the dash. It was very fast, hit about 39mph in the dash. Took it all the way to Queensbridge, then back again. I had just enough time to get to the other window, the N train had a quick turnaround.
I went through the 6th ave dash again, this time we hit 40mph. Got off at W4th and crossed over to the northbound side, and what luck another R32 N pulls in. Took that through the dash looking out rear window. It's really dark in the dash, with no headlights it was pitch black down there. Why no tunnel lights?
On the way back I took the 7 to Flushing. After I got to Flushing you'd know my luck would run out. It started snowing, that's right, SNOW in October!
I figured I'd take the N21 at 4:30pm. Well the bus stop was crowded, and I had to wait 15 minutes for the bus in the snow and cold. It was late, and a Cummins (184). A nice long line developed behind me and the bus was packed (SRO) leaving Flushing.
And what a slow ride it was. Then going up the hill in Manhasset I heard acceleration stop. We started then going downhill but something didn't feel right. It slowly stopped and the engine stalled (yup, good ol' Cummins L10G). Fortunately it restarted and the bus slowly made it to Sea Cliff, at 5:50pm, almost 20 minutes late.
With all the trains we saw being "overhauled" today I think LI Bus should get overhauled and replace all the Cummins CNG engines with series 50, since alot of delays can be attributed to equipment failure.
If I lived within a 5 minute walk from the train station I'd be taking LIB alot less because their buses suck!
See! Told ya. You were gonna miss a great tour for nothing. Sometimes you gotta just try and if it does'nt work then so be it. Glad you had a good time. Next time don't worry so much.
Although, does'nt it just figure that the only part of your day to go wrong was with those damn LI Buses? I honestly do not know how you stay patient with those rotten buses. I would've yanked all the hair outta my head dealing with those rat traps.
Hey John, what was you wearing???
3TM
Blue jacket, green pants, and a black bag.
BTW, I'm still getting spam so "no spam" is gone.
I just delete the messages unless I see one that says
"Redbirds for $1!"
I rode the C & E trains in Manhatten briefly this weekend. They were
stainless steel cars with little destination signs on the front right
above the front storm door , like the letter "C". What class of cars
were these? R-32?, R-33 ????
Thanks
Chuck Greene
The C (and E) Uses R32 cars. Here is how to tell these cars:
If it has the digital sign over the front storm door AND the ripples go all the way up you are looking at an R32 Car. If the ripples go half-way up and then it is smooth you are looking at an R38 Car.
To Train Dude: Yes- I know these are not the only kind of cars on these lines.
Thank you! The corrugations ( we used to put them on our semi-trailers when I was in that business) ran all the way up, so I guess we were in a R-32. Our future in-laws took us in to the City and we figured the fastest way to get from 42nd & 8th to SoHo was the subway.
The lady rides it everyday from Penn Station- 34th to West 4th! She knew her stuff!
Thanks!
Chuck Greene
FYI, it is those very same R-32s that you rode on that are expected to make 50 years in revenue service. They are projected to be in service until 2015.
Peace,
ANDEE
ANDEE:
I see your point. They were actually very quiet and ran great! There was very little noise from the traction motors. Starting off was a little bit jerky, but that could be from a number of factors.
Thanks for replying to my post!
Chuck Greene
I saw a few R-46 E trains while in the city last week.
There are at least two R46 sets running on the E. Very confusing to me at Queens Plaza since I used to just look at the car type to find the F train.
It's dangerous to look at car types to determine what line it is.
There are always reroutes !!
>>>There are always reroutes !! <<<
Like today about 12:20 PM I'm at 34th ST, waiting for a D and Lo and Behold a consist of R-32s pulls in as a Q train. Odd to say the least as a Q of slants had just gone thru less than 2 minutes ago. I at first thought the R-32 Q was a rerouted A,C or E. But no it was a Q. All signs changed and everything.
Peace,
ANDEE
Was the "Q" sign yellow or orange?
Orange, Reading Brighton, on the sides only of course
Peace,
ANDEE
I think 1 or 2 R32s from the N Line and 1 or 2 R40s from the Q Line made their way to each other. All the R40s with squeaky brakes got onto the N Line.
running on...
R-32s were a mainstay on the Q a few years back after the R-68s were reassigned. I rode on one such train in 1997, IIRC; however, I can't remember what the side signs said. I'm almost positive "Brighton" was included.
They were not the mainstay of the Q in the after the 68as left for the B. the 40s always outnumbered them.
Quite true. It seems the R-32 assignment of a few years ago was short-lived. I did manage to take a couple of photos through the railfan window of the Brightin line with the Empire State Building looming dead ahead.
R32 on the Q? That's bringing it all back home.
Yep, it sure does. That's where the R-32s made their debut.
I always think R32 (original version) as being signed Q, and after that, N and TT. For R10s, always A. Always. For R1/9, E, for R27/30, QT and RR. For association of a particular model with a particular line, it had to be the R10 (light blue striped on cream) with the A.
The R-10s will forever be associated with the A in my book as well. And the teal-and-white racing stripe scheme is my personal favorite. I tend to associate the R-32s with the N first, mostly because my very first subway ride was on an N of shiny new R-32s in 1965. The R-27s are linked to the RR, while the R-1/9s conjure up images of D trains first, followed by AA trains.
Except of course that the MTA butchered the original good looks. Well, at least the stainless sides are still gleaming, looking new.
Yeah - no more blue doors or bulkhead roll signs. Or green backlit side signs, for that matter. At least the R-32s are still merrily rolling along.
Are you sure it wasn't a wayward "O" train???
:o> wayne
Of course, back in the good old days, if a train of R-10s pulled in, you knew it was an A without having to look at the signs.
It's funny how the R10 is associated with one line in most people's mind. Because of my age, the R10 will always be associated with the C line in my mind, as I only once rode one on another route (the B/K line in 10/87).
Prior to 1977, the R-10s were almost exclusively assigned to the A, dominating that route for 29 years. That has to rank as one of the best moves ever made by the BOT. Thirty of them spent some time on the Eastern Division in the 1950s and some went over to the B after Chrystie St. as well as the CC and HH. I'm thankful to be old enough to remember them on the A and to ride on them on that line as many times as I did. I understand your viewpoint completely, though.
Interesting how there's sort of a unity of car types among Eighth Avenue trains. There's the R32 on all three lines (especially E) which is similar to the R38 on the A and C. And then there's the R44 on the A (and Rock Park Shuttle) which is a dead ringer for the R46 on the E.
(I know there are differences between the R44s and R46s, subtle physical differences and more important mechanical differences. But to tell you the truth they could replace my R46 F with an R44 and I'd never know the difference!)
Andrew
R32's are a rare sight on the A. If you do see one, it's usually 2 cars R32 and 8 cars R38 mixed together. A 10 car R32 is only used as a last resort if not enough R38/44's are available.
Well, everyday, for the past two weeks, I have seen whole 10 car R32s on the A train.
Today like around 4:30PM the R68 I was on car #2747 the second car of the train. The train and I were leaving DeKalb Ave Station and suddenly I was looking at end door of the R68 and their was a man walking between cars on this R68 train. Wait but then when he walk in on car #2747 he had a key and he locked the door then he was walking to the next end door of car 2747 to go to the front car so he opened the door with the key and then went thru to open the door on the next car. Wait a minute but he fogot to lock the front door on 2747 when he was going to open the front door of the next first car while he was standing between cars! Also who you might of think who was this guy because he was not in uniform and didn't look like either a train conductor or a train motorman to me?
He could have been a TSS or a Superintendent. Then again, he could have just been an hourly employee, on or off duty, who wanted to ride the head car. As for leaving the door unlocked, when walking between cars I'll frequently open the door and then 'lock' it before I remove my key. This way I don't have to try to lock it from the outside while the train is in motion.
Those doors can be slam locked on the 5000s but you have to manually lock the inner cab door on the 2000s as some of the latches move to unlock when closing. I prefer to wait for the train to arrive at a station and haul it to the next car on the platform. And I NEVER cross between 75 foot cars when a train is moving. Not even on the relay at 205 St. I'm uncomfortable with the idea plus it is more work to secure the doors. It also gives me the opportunity to check the blue lights on the platform of the entire train. Thats why the TA put stickers denoting "for emergency use only" on these cars. There is no emergency for one who is paid by the hour, one who's station exit is at a particular end of a train, one who needs a seat or a change of scenary to move between moving R44/R46/R68 cars.
They don't slam lock on the R68As. They're just like the R68s. I've been on an R68A that had it's door swing open while turning. Sometimes those blue lights aren't working. I've seen R46s that have them on but they don't open.
running on...
Where on the cars are the blue lights? Are these the same blue lights that go on when the regular side doors open?
- Lyle Goldman
They are in the same housings. But, they are not the same lights. The blue lights do not go on when side doors are opened only when end doors are unlocked.
Peace,
ANDEE
But I've seen blue lights on even when the end doors were locked.
- Lyle Goldman
Then there's a problem with the car's end door. It might say the door is unlocked when it's actually locked.
I've actually tested out the blue lights to see if they work by tugging on the door handle inside the car. I sometimes pass through, push down the switch and enter the next car. Sometimes on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, the blue lights are on in both cars, at the ends that face the other car. I have also seen a train full of blue lights on on the Rockaway Park Shuttle.
"I've actually tested out the blue lights to see if they work by tugging on the door handle inside the car."
How are you outside to check the light at the same time?
"I sometimes pass through, push down the switch and enter the next car."
Not smart on 75' cars. There's a reason they are closed.
running on...
Who ever he was, if he was walking thru 75ft cars, that were moving thru that bowl of rail spaghetti, known as DeKalb, he could not have been too bright.
Peace,
ANDEE
I remember berfore the r-46 cars were overhauled, if you opened the end doors with the bypass switchon the outside portal, it would trigger a really loud alarm....Did the r-46 cars retain the alarms and do the R-68's have similar alarms?
No, to both questions.
Peace,
ANDEE
I once saw one of those Asian annoying noisemaker/battery/other junk peddlers on the E key the end door of an R44 open and move to the next car. I suspect there are a good number of those keys circulating.
The E train runs only R32s or R46s. I've seen him too. He has the keys to the train!
running on...
I want to know how I could get a copy of this book?
As far as I know, this book is out of print. You might try the Transit Museum store in Brooklyn. They may still have some copies left.
They turn up in eBay auctions every once in a while. The last one sold for $127.55. That's too much money for me, and I would like to get one too.
There also was a much less lavish book called, I think, They Moved the Millions, that covered the period 1904-1984. This might be an affordable alternative for someone interested in the evolution of subway car design.
The author of that book used to post here, and we hope that he will be able to post here again! The last I heard, he still had copies of that book for sale!
I received a tape cassette from Big Ed yesterday. It includes Q cars on the Myrtle Ave. el complete with commentary; my beloved R-10s on the GG; R-1/9s on the D; North Shore trains circa 1960, and Lo-Vs on the West Side IRT. He's got an apartment now, and has managed to get some of his stuff back. For those of you who missed my earlier post, Big Ed is going through a very messy divorce and essentially got kicked out of his own house. His letter consisted of more venting, which I can understand. As for copies of his book, he said that's out of the question for now unless he gets them back.
Steve, tell Big Ed BMTman said "hang in there". Better days are ahead for him.
BMTman
I will send along best wishes to Big Ed from the entire gang at Subtalk. We all wish him well.
Most definitely.
Peace,
ANDEE
[There also was a much less lavish book called, I think, They Moved the Millions,]
Agree, inexpensive & packed with lots of detail ... only bad point are the photos, kind of dark & hard to see, but it's still a must have for subway fan.
Mr t__:^)
After the C.I. Shop tour Rosanne and I went to Nathans for lunch. We took an N back to Manhattan which was running over the Manny B (North side, of course) and up Sixth Ave.. But, why was it running express from W.4th to W.34th? I checked the track maps and there appears to be a turn out north of W.4th which could have put it on the local track. Wouldn't that have been easier for people who were blind to the G.O. and were expecting to get off in between the express stops?
You have to keep the trains moving on the express tracks since there were 3 services there (B/D/N). Murphys law says that an F & N would arrive W. 4th St. the same time. The F may be late. So the N has to wait and it could delay a B or D behind it..... I know I have a lot of "if's" here and I don't like the idea of 3 expresses & one local on Sixth Ave. despite the fact the F has more service than the others, and with a heavy transfer to/from the "L" at 14/6th, but you have to keep the railraod moving. Switching from one track to another requires a slow speed restriction and costs time. As the Chief Transportation officer prints on all his memo's: "Every Second Counts."
But that would have ruined all the fun!!
What's going on with the N Train service that it is being routed across the north side of the Manhattan Bridge and up 6th Ave? I didn't see anything in the service updates about this.
It was posted:
Weekend, 12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon, Oct 28 to 30
N trains run on the B between 21 St-Queensbridge and DeKalb Av.
Normal N service is also available between Ditmars Blvd and Canal St and between DeKalb and Stillwell Avs. Normal R service is available between Queens and 34 St and between 36 and 95 Sts.
Anyone watching the PBS show on railways in Syria? And we complain about NYC....
Dang, am I sorry I had to miss today's C.I. yard tour. But right now I'm 400 miles away, at an Internet kiosk at a "travel center" just outside Youngstown, Ohio. I'd always wanted to go to Ohio, as it's the closest state I've never been in. So, having the chance to go there, I decided to make a quick overnight trip. I've added another state to my "been there" list (29 for now), but no C.I. trip. Oh well.
BTW - I had heard that Youngstown was a dump, but I wasn't sure. Now I know for sure.
Were any pictures of the #4 Line collision posted?
David Harrison
No, not yet. But if you watch this spot you may see some by the end of this week. Interiors too.
Peace,
ANDEE
10/30/2000
[No, not yet. But if you watch this spot you may see some by the end of this week. Interiors too.]
Would that be difficult with the trap covering thebuckled body ?
I wonder if God's a Met fan ! Could his mighty fist have slammed down and buckled that R-62 ? And the collison was a coverup to divert attention ? Mysterious ways indeed !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>Would that be difficult with the trap covering the buckled body ? <<<
Not if the photographer were inside the car. Boy is it ugly.
Peace,
ANDEE
i took a pic of it. however, i wasn't in the yard. i was on Bedford Park Blvd. over pass when i took it. its gonna come out bad. u will spot the car in the pic if u's were to see it but, its gonna be bad. i'll wait to develop to see if it does come out bad.
Bill Newkirk:
Please tell me when you get pictures of the cars damaged in the accident on the #4 line.
BMTJeff
10/30/2000
BMT Jeff,
Sorry, but I didn't shoot the R-62 wreck. If you go back earlier in this thread, one of the other SubTalkers said he did.
The only time I saw the wreck was on TV and that was bad enough !
Bill "Newkirk"
10/30/2000
I misspelled tarp as trap. My error !
Bill "Newkirk"
Type first, ask questions later!
Were you in Concourse yard to take the pictures? If so, why didn't you come in and say hello?
Uhoh. I'm working Concourse Yard the week of the 12th. I smell some write-ups coming. :)
No I wasn't there. Someone I know took them.
Peace,
ANDEE
SUBWAYSURF:
If you know where there are any pictures of the collision on the #4 line please inform me. Thank you.
BMTJeff
I have some and hope to post them by the end of this week.
Peace,
ANDEE
SUBWAYSURF:
Please let me know when the pictures of the collision on the #4 line are posted.
BMTJeff
I ahve posted them. Here's a link
CLICK HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
Please let me know if anybody knows why does the token have a hole?
Token used by American Transit system are not to be confused with the regular currency. If you notice the word "Subway" on the home page, each token has a different cutout.
I never ask why some of the Yen pieces have hole in them too.
So it doesn't look or feel like a nickel.
-Hank
I think the original 15-cent token had the Y-cutout to make it easier to tell it apart from a dime or a penny by feel. Since then most (but not all) versions of the token have retained some kind of hole or cutout simply because it became an established tradition.
Yes, the first turnstiles took nickles, then dimes. They wanted a way to have the early machines know when it was a token vs. a slug or a US coin.
Mr t__:^)
>>> They wanted a way to have the early machines know when it was a token vs. a slug or a US coin. <<<
IIRC they were not so successful as far as slugs were concerned. Early on there were news stories of certain sized washers disappearing from hardware stores all over NYC, Long Island, and nearby New Jersey when it was found that they could fool the turnstiles.
Tom
They also had to find a way to defeat the suckers, i.e. homeless who would suck out the token you just put in.
Mr t__:^)
So how long will it be before our long overdue fare hikes cause several hikes in a short period that will raise the fare to $2.50 a la 1980-1983?
(So how long will it be before our long overdue fare hikes cause several hikes in a short period that will raise the fare to $2.50 a
la 1980-1983?)
About 20 minutes after Pataki is re-elected. With Metrocard rather than tokens, they should increase the fare by the same amount as union labor costs increase each and every year, and cut the politics out of it.
With Metrocard rather than tokens, they should increase the fare by the same amount as union labor costs increase each and every year, and cut the politics out of it.
What percentage of subway costs is comprised of labor?
DISCLAIMER: This post has absolutely nothing to do with rail transit. So for those of you want to know about my personal life, read on......
Well for any Subtalkers that could tell that my last couple weeks worth of posts were pretty weird, it was because life was weird - in a lot of different ways. But now, today, things are finally getting better. For those who actually care (no one), the last two weeks saw the Mets lose, and me lose large amounts of money that I had bet on Mets, which was worse. To add insult to injury the Yankees one in Shea - if they had to win they could've at least done it in Yankee Stadium. Then school was getting annoying too. A week from this Friday I have the day off from school so the weekend after next (two weeks from now) I had scheduled to get my transit and my teen modeling sites back online. Lo and behold, my folks schedule a trip to the relatives' house because my lil' bro has the day off too. Woohoo! Also my closest (female) friend is now dating some other guy, so now I feel as out of place as an R-142 on the IND. So that's the bad.
Now the good - in reverse order.
Seems my friend has subtly acknowledged that she made a mistake in dating this guy and that they'll just be casual for awhile and if she wants something more serious then she'll come to me. Schoolwork is now undone. Through a commitment to play the offertory in our church service, I have an out from going to the relatives and can stay home alone to upload pics of Portland LRVs, San Francisco LRVs, and chicks in lingerie to each of my websites. Also my little brother got Napster so now I am downloading all of my favorite songs from when I was a little elementary school bastard back in the early 90s. So yeah life is good. Anyway I guess the point of this email is this; if any of my posts in the last couple weeks have been incoherent, I apologize - my life was incoherent. Now it's coo again. That and I got and extra hour of sleep last night. So anyway yeah...things are good and I am still planning my NYC-NJ-Boston railfanning trip this spring. Feel free to congratulate me, make puns based on this email, or flame me for posting such a long off-topic post :O. Until next time,
A BBBB EEEEE Y Y
A A B BB E Y Y
A A BBBB EEEE Y
AAAAAAA B BB E Y
A A BBBB EEEEE Y
BBBB A BBBB Y Y
B BB A A B BB Y Y
BBBB A A BBBB Y
B BB AAAAAAA B BB Y
BBBB A A BBBB Y
sorry about the random groupings of letters there - in a fixed width font they would have spelled out "abeybaby"
You've been weird for ONLY the last couple of weeks? :)
Your "friend" went to see someone else because she did'nt want to be associated with someone rooting for the Mets. When the series ended, she came back. COINCIDENCE? I DON'T THINK SO.
Although I think it's cool that you don't have to go to your relatives place to hit them up for some bread (again, Mets related).
And you're uploading half naked chicks, fully naked LRV's and you're stealing all the music you want. Damn, you've got it good! :)
10/30/2000
[Until next time,]
Carefull Abraham, Anon_e_mouse uses that in his sign off !
You Don't want to hear the mouse ROAR.
Bill "Newkirk"
ROAR! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You bet on the Mets to win? How stupid are you? No matter how much we wish and pary the Yankees will always win the Series. Our only hope is to try and get them banned from the league or the playoffs. Nobody should attend or watch a baseball game on TV untill the Yankies are removed from contention for at least the next 100 years.
lol. What's all this about the Yankees not wanting to be in the bronx anymore? I was watching after one of the games and they were talking about how the Yankees want a new arena in midtown at like 34th built over the LIRR yards. I was like "what?" the news people said that a complete redo of Yankee Stadium would probably be about 700 million and a new arena would be about 1 million. So it was comparable. So for only 300 million more they can have a new stadium! yea! Geez. The Yankees do NOT need a new stadium, the Mets do. I can tel you right where to put it too - the Roosevelt/Queens Blvd intersection served by our famed E,F,V,R, and 7
Abey_E_Baby
And what vacant piece of prperty would that be? What major highways are right there? I can appreciate the rapid transit, but some folks still travel by auto.
Consider the Sunnyside yards. LIRR, IND, BMT, IRT, Amtrak, NJTransit, and close to the LIE, BRKLYN/Queens Expway, Grand Central, 59th St bridge, Midtown tunnel.
Asecond thought would be Aquaduct Race Track, Highways, IND, Ghost of LIRR and future AIR TRAIN.
avid
I think they need to keep the site at Flushing Meadows. There's room there for retractable grass.
The Mets don't want to move anywhere, and have publicly stated that they're willing to play at a renovated Shea, but they'd rather have the new park. They also, unlike von Steingrabber, have not used a threat of leaving the city to push for a new stadium. What gives the Yankees the little extra incentive is the blatant bias on the part of the Mayor.
-Hank
some people still travel by auto
Yeah but there's no reason to encourage people to travel by auto MORE. The last thing anyone needs is a stadium surrounded by parking lots (a la 3COM Candlestick). Transit with like 2500 parking spots (a la Pacific Bell) is the way to go. The area they were saying on the news seemed like one of the few areas in midtown that ISN'T within easy walking distance of the subway - 12th is a good half mile plus from the eighth ave IND station. Okay so the Queens/Roosevelt idea sucked. I just popped that one off the top of my head. Personall the flushing meadows location IS good - but I'd like to see moving walkways from the 7 stop to the new stadium. Parking is too readily available at the current Shea. The Aqueduct Racetrack area WOULD be good. But that's at the very end of the subway just like Shea is and thus people would be enticed to drive. NYC has way too many freeways as it is.....see my next post
just continuing from that last post,
NYC has too many freeways - moses went rampant when he built them. Unfortunately it would be impossible to get rid of many of them without serious problems - so roadways like the LIE and the BQE will continue to exist as long concrete scars across the landscape - but for starters how about...
1st: East River Drive? Leave it north of the Brooklyn Bridge but kill the section south of there. The South Street seaport would be such a nicer place without the freeway running over it all, and since the West Side Elevated HWY hasn't been around for 15 years or so now, the direct freeway connection to the Battery Park tunnel isn't needed.
2nd: Get rid of the Clearview south of the LIE. They don't need that - it was planned to be extended, but never did - and in the meantime cuts right through a park. Let's give the people back the park and get rid of the freeway.
3rd: Rebuild the Belt Pkwy/Verrazano interchange so that people could get directly onto the Gowanus northbound from the Belt by going up the same ramps they use to get on the Verrazano. Then get rid of the Belt between where it crosses under the Verrazano and the Gowanus. The Verrazano approach might need to be widened a lane, but getting rid of the Belt between the bridge and the wye with the approaches and the Gowanus and making it parkland would be kewl
4th: The BQE-GCP interchange - Moses never intended for commuters to use the Midtown tunnel, go north on the BQE and then east on the GCP - that's why the LIE-BQE ramps are tight single-laners for traffic coming off the tunnel and getting on the BQE northbound. But a lot of them do. To discourage this a little, redo the interchange to be fully directional on the northwest side of the Cemetery. Then take the cutoff that starts at the south side of the Cemetery and connects with the GCP and turn it into a park. BQE northbounds could simply use the new ramps to get on the GCP eastbound - it'd just be about a mile longer. Encircling the cemetery with freeways is gross
5th: Interborough Pkwy - this whole parkway shouldn't be killed, but the grade seperation should. No one commutes to downtown on this road, because it connects only to the surface streets at the Brooklyn end. So get rid of the interchanges, put in traffic lights and a 40-mph speed limit and bike lanes. Perhaps even sidewalks. Just make it more ped-friendly - it should be a "parkway" like a boulevard that people can walk and bike on through the cemeteries - not a "parkway" like a freeway home only to cars speeding through the hairpin curves.
Well there's a few ideas to put out - i'll just sit back and watch the car drivers flame me for this one hehehehehe
Until the oil wells run dry, and all P.O.V.s grind to a halt, you seem to be off a wee bit.
1: Kill the FDR south of BB: Good idea.
2: Kill the Clearview south of LIE: Bad idea. There is no easy way to bail off the LIE to the GCP, I did this friday afternoon. There are no ramps on the Van Wyck (even if there were that would not be a good idea) to GCP east and CIP is backed up. Also people from the throgs neck would be forced onto the LIE.
3: Verrazano / Belt: Bad idea. People wanting to get on the belt would have to sit in traffic with the people getting on the bridge thus increasing traffic on the gowanus.
4: BQE / LIE: The interchange is already double deckered, and the area is already well devolped.
5: Interboro: Leave well enough alone.
On a seprate note, I wish people would stop bitching about Washington DC traffic. There aren't any tolls (execept for the Dulles toll road), and traffic is no where near as bad as NYC. Anyone who says so should fly into JFK drive up the Van Wyck to the Cross Bronx.
The problem with the DC traffic is mainly due to the design of the traffic patterns -- thanks to L'Enfant and the self-important nature of the people who run the place at the federal state and local levels over the years, the assumption is everyone wants to go to or from downtown Washington. With the growth of the suburbs and of corporations moving there (the better to be closer to Congress and the president for lobbying pruposes) everybody does not want to go downtown, but the road patters take them there, or funnel them onto the Beltway, the only limited access east-est highway.
That's a nightmade, and the southern half of that can be shut down if a boat is passing by the Woodrow Wilson Bridge, making things even worse. An east-west Metro line across Montgomery and Prince George's county north of the district would help solve some of that problem, as would a Montgomery County-Tysons Corner Va. rail link. But it ain't-a gonna happen, anymore than the proposed outer Beltway is going to be built over the NIMBY opposition.
The problem with the DC traffic is mainly due to the design of the traffic patterns -- thanks to L'Enfant and the self-important nature of the people who run the place at the federal state and local levels over the years, the assumption is everyone wants to go to or from downtown Washington. With the growth of the suburbs and of corporations moving there (the better to be closer to Congress and the president for lobbying pruposes) everybody does not want to go downtown, but the road patters take them there, or funnel them onto the Beltway, the only limited access east-west highway.
Indeed, according to a recent study by the Brookings Institution, Washington's suburbs rank second only to New York's in square footage of office space. Washington itself, if you count both city and suburbs, edges out Chicago to take third place nationwide. Interestingly, once again counting city and suburbs, New York has over twice the amount of office space as second-place Los Angeles.
This study itself examines the extent to which office space has dispersed beyond central cities. While most attention has been paid to "edge cities" such as Stamford, Tyson's Corner and Schaumburg, the report finds that much of the growth in office space is in far-flung centerless suburban areas - think, for example, of the office parks dotting Morris County. There are a number of consequences for transit, and as you might guess they aren't good ones.
Note that you have to have Adobe to read the full text.
An east-west Metro line across Montgomery and Prince George's county north of the district would help solve some of that problem
I tend to disagree here. Whatt would MontCo people do once they have arrived at their in tyson's? Take a bus? HA!!!! The only alternative would be to build some sort of tyson's subway, which ain't gonna happen.
Tyson's has develped as such a business center in its own right over the past 20 years in could now be considered a destination for someone who might live in, say Gaithersburg near the Shady Grove stop but would would over at the I-495/Va. 7/Va. 123 triangle. Likewise, the areas in Rockville and Gaithesburg along the I-270 corridor have become business destinations for workers in their own right -- put the stations in the proper locations and you wouldn't need connection bus services to the office buildings.
Tyson's Corner could get a subway as part of a proposed Dulles Airport link off the Orange Line, but a cross-Potomac line north of the Beltway would be decried as going from only the rich suburbs to the rich suburbs and could never withstand the politcal heat to get matching regional funds.
"for someone who would would?" try: "for someone who would work over at the I-495/Va. 7/Va. 123 triangle."
Sorry for sounding like George W. delivering a speech.
These inter-suburban lines won't work. People can drive to the train station at the home end, but what will happen will a low density other end?
In addition, downtown Washington is limited by another factor: No building, with the exception of the Washington Monument, can be taller than the top of the Statue of Freedom atop the Capitol. Therefore, density is automatically limited.
Suburban sprawl around DC is approaching the 30-mile-from-downtown-mark in some areas along the Interstate corridors. Any subway would have to build very large parking facilities -- the ones already in place at the outer stations (Vienna, Shady Grove, etc.) are already woefully inadequate for Monday through Friday needs.
"These inter-suburban lines won't work. People can drive to the train station at the home end, but what will happen will a low density other end?"
But there are already a bunch of places in the Washington suburbs where large concentrations of office buildings are within easy walking distance of a Metro station. Rosslyn, Crystal City, all the office buildings across from National Airport, etc..
"In addition, downtown Washington is limited by another factor: No building, with the exception of the Washington Monument, can be taller than the top of the Statue of Freedom atop the Capitol. Therefore, density is automatically limited."
Yes, but there are some fairly tall (well, not Chicago or New York tall) office buildings in the aforementioned Metro-centered office areas. There's plenty of room for higher density centers around Metro stations outside the District.
Remember that the goal isn't to build a Chicago-style downtown in Washington, it's:
1) to get people to use transit to commute to and from work and
2) to increase the density in already-developed areas so that undeveloped areas don't get paved over.
Office areas centered around suburban Metro stops -- something already done but which can be done even more -- accomplish that.
[2nd: Get rid of the Clearview south of the LIE. They don't need that]
If you have to drive from northern Queens to the south shore & typically use the Cross Island, this is the only alternate way to get there, i.e. Clearview to GCP, back to Cross Island or continue on GCP to Meadowbrook.
[5th: Interborough Pkwy ... yada yada] what have you been smoking ?
I don't know whay I'm even replying, because your suggestions don't make much since & I'm a believer in mass transit.
Mr t__:^)
Not only that, but Spunky lives on the northern Left Coast, which is nowhere near NYC. He has a lot of nerve telling New York what it should do.
Since he usually posts drivel, he's #2 &3 in my Killfile. Almost as objectionable as the #1 Redbird maniac.
Dan, I don't have anyone in a Kill File yet, but I have a mental list of Crank Callers that I don't pick up the phone for. He's going to be added to my list.
Mr t__:^)
It is true that the higways within New York City are a mess. Very, very few stretches of interstate are even remotely up to interstate standards (the BQE being the most extreme example.) But we as a city are way to dependendent on them to start taking them down now. If we want to make the neighborhoods more walkable, they can always add more overpasses.
Anyway, to answer your ideas:
1. Admitedly the south end of the FDR Dr. is not a highway I have much use for. But it is proabably the easiest way to get from uptown (at least the upper east side) to the Holland Tunnel (via flipping to West St via Battery Park.) I'd say it has a purpose. Since Battery Park is simply built right over the tunnels (few visitors even know they're there), I suppose some building like that could be done with South St. Seaport.
2. No way. That section of the Clearview is the only good way to switch between the LIE on Grand Central, at least going eastbound. I also find it useful for getting to and from my apartmenmt in Oakland Gardens via the 73rd Ave exit.
There are two pedestrian crossings in the area. The NYC Greenway trail goes under the Clearview. It has recently been revamped so it flows nicely from the old Motor Pkwy trail. It does plenty to link up different parts of Cunningham Park.
The 67th Ave overpass is another matter. I recently tried to ride my bike over it, and I ended up having to walk it most of the way (through narrow dirt trails) on both sides. It pretty much goes from nowhere to nowhere. The parks dpet should be working ont that.
3. The park there is already pretty nice. Another pedestrian overpass or two would be all we'd need. And maybe just one more entrance onto the eastbound Belt from the Bay Ridge area. As it is, you have toi go all the way to Fourth and the Verazanno if the 65-67 St entrance is closed.
4. That route is a very useful alternate, especially now that the LIE is under heavy construction in the Rego Park area.
5. If anything making the Jackie Robinson (Interboro) a surface boulevard would divide the parks and neighborhoods more than unite them. As it is, pedestrains and bicycles can easily go over and under the parkway via the over and underpasses. It's a lot harder to cross at a light.
The unneeded freeway is the one in your neighborhood. The needed freeway is the one that allows you to drive through someone else's neighborhood.
Well put. And NYC Highway use assesments should not be done by persons sitting comfortably on the other side of the country.
On a similar note, commecials running on the radio in support of the transportation bond act say that it wil 'improve mass transit', which will bring about fewer cars on our highways, which will be 'made wider and safer'
If the highways will have less traffic on them, why do they need to be widened?
-Hank
Let me understand this. You are suggesting getting rid of these highways to provide much needed additional riders to the grossly underutilized NYC subway system? :-)
11/01/2000
And now for a question nobody has asked. Where is the money going to come from to pay for this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey,
I'm a car driver, but I won't flame you. These aren't bad ideas, but I do have the following criticisms:
1- To sever the FDR south of the Brooklyn Bridge, would cause chaos. Don't forget, there are monstrous bottlenecks southbound, getting off of the Brooklyn Bridge. These can go back at least a mile. Most of the cars going south of there, are spillovers to the BBT. However, if you have at least 2 lanes exit at the bridge, and continue up the ramp, instead of one lane exiting at the Civic Center, then maybe you have something here....
As for having the Belt Pkwy connect with the Gowanus by the VZ, also, you have to increase the capacity of the roadway. There are already huge lines waiting to get to the bridge. Also, the BQE extention between 92st and the beginning of the gowanus is only 2 lanes. The third lane is only for HOV, and is closed during non rush-hours. It will be a tight squeeze.
JDL
here's another lame idea.
Instead of Subway - Airport connections why not just build a new system? The Subway is kewl - but it's also pitfully slow. 35 mph timers? Please. What they need is something like BART that can hit 80 between JFK, LaGuardia, and Newark. Routes would be like this: JFK-LaGuardia via old Bay Ridge ROW and some new ROW, then through Midtown to Newark. Also JFK - lower Manhattan - Newark. So you'd have direct connections from all three airports to each other and the two central areas of NYC downtown - and they'd be FAST
That looks good . Keep going , more details, please.
Car sizes, train length, number of stations, headway between trains?
avid
And the NIMBY from along the right of way. Look how far BART right of way is from the nearest house.
No Sunnyside would NOT be a good location. It would obscure the view of the rail yard there. I do not want Sunnyside to become another Penn Station.
Railfan views be damned. If the city can increase its income from the same plot of land (if the Mets were to build the stadium out of pocket, and pay property taxes on it) go for it. Rail yards are a blight on the urban landscape, just like parking lots and the Cross-Bronx. All are necessary.
-Hank
People have been known to ride the 7 just for the view of Sunnyside.
Rail yards? A blight? You've got to be kidding. Strip malls and corporate parks are a real blight.
OK, sure. Large employment centers are indeed a blight.
-Hank
If you lived in NYC you would know that this is an oft repeated story, over the last number of years, that, hopefully, will never come true for many reasons.
Peace,
ANDEE
just to make it cheap, why don't they just demolish Yankee stadium(that don't cost much to do) and rebuild a new one on the same spot? the mets are getting a new stadium. plans to build it on the same spot are in the works as we speak. its supposed to be able to acomodate concerts and other events too. Roosevelt ave. 74th street Brodway would be a disaster to build a new shea. that area is too damn busy already. its a place for commerce and residents. if shea was there, mass commuter nightmare.
No one is getting a new stadium, yet.
-Hank
Sounds like a typical mets fan.
<>
Semi-relavant point of information: The E,F,G (soon to be replaced by the V) and R meet the 7 at Roosevelt Avenue and BROADWAY (and 74th St.) The so-called Queens Blvd. line follows Broadway all the way from just "north" (east) of Steinway St through Grand Avenue-Newton.
(Well, the express dosen't join Bwy 'till 65th St)
:)Andrew
WHOOPS! I have no idea how my message got italicized and the quote I was refering to got cut off. Somwone's gonna have to explain the code they use here.
:)Andrew
Don't use < and > in your messages.
Those constitute and HTML tag, the thing thought that your quote was a huge tag. Since the first letter inside was I, it also thought it was a tag to italicize.
[the Roosevelt/Queens Blvd intersection served by our famed E,F,V,R, and 7]
Wait a minute. Queens Boulevard and Roosevelt Avenue intersect nowhere near the E, F, G, and R lines. The intersection of Roosevelt Avenue with eastbound lanes of Queens Boulevard includes Greenpoint Avenue and 48th Street. The 7 is the only line that stops near there, with a subway entrance at 47th Street. The intersection of the westbound lanes of Queens Boulevard almost includes 49th Street, with traffic lights on westbound Roosevelt Avenue just east of 49th Street. While the intersection of Roosevelt Avenue and Broadway is around 74th Street, 26 blocks east of the intersection of Roosevelt and Queens Blvd. Incidentally, both the 7 line and the IND lines turn off Queens Boulevard where the street on the opposite side of Queens Blvd has a different name that starts with the letter G. The 7 line turns off QB onto Roosevelt Avenue, and across QB from that is Greenpoint Avenue. The IND line turns off QB onto Broadway, and across QB from that is Grand Avenue. There is a small park between the two four-lane, one-way streets that make up Queens Boulevard, between Roosevelt Avenue and 50th Street, but it's not big enough to fit a baseball stadium, and a 10,000-vehicle parking lot.
Through a commitment to play the offertory in our church service, I have an out from going to the relatives and can stay home alone to upload pics of Portland LRVs, San Francisco LRVs, and chicks in lingerie to each of my websites.
Hmmm, those are diverse interests ...
No, I understand him. He spends sop much time alone with his PC and looking at trains, he forgets to have a life.
-Hank :)
As of 6:50 AM, R62 # 1415 is parked on a flatbed on State Street between Pearl and Bridge Streets. It appears that the Yankees may ride in it. It has plexiglass panels in front of each set of doors.
Sorry.. No camera !!
Here's a silly question. Why does the 1 train come out of the ground to make one elevated stop at 125th Street, and then go underground again until above 191st street? Is this just the result of a quirk in Manhattan's topography? Is there a valley there that cuts below the level of the tunnel or something? I'm not from New York, so I'm not too familiar with that area. I just thought it was kind of strange.
You are 100% correct the area is known as Manhattan Valley.
Peace,
ANDEE
Is this just the result of a quirk in Manhattan's topography? Is
there a valley there that cuts below the level of the tunnel or something?
Yes, this is correct. the train is pretty much on the level from on tunnel to the next. And as you have noticed, this is a very high elevated track.
Elias
Actually, from 116 northbound to 125, and then again from 125 to 137, the track is on a downgrade.
The area, known as Manhattan Valley, is no lower or higher than other parts of Manhattan further south, but it is directly fronted by high areas, and the height only continues to grow to the north. This was formed by an earthquake faultline. The fault is still there, it acts up about every 100-150 years and we're long overdue for one (probably not a very big one, but it should do away with some of those unstable buildings that the city doesn't bother to demolish).
When the subway was opened, 125th Street station was called Manhattan Street. In the 1920s, 125th was rerouted onto Manhattan Street to follow the valley and go to the pier which then had a ferry to NJ as opposed to following a straight line into Morningside Heights.
Thanks everyone for your answers. It makes a lot more sense now. I'd heard there was a fault line through Manhattan, but I didn't know you could get such a great view of it from the subway! Some creative geology teacher somewhere could make a really neat field trip out of a subway tour. Are there any other geologic oddities apparent on the subway lines?
Michalovic
It's the TOPOGRAPHY..
which also makes for great PHOTOGRAPHY.. :)
I've been off line for a while but About 2 weeks ago I was waiting for a Queens bound F at Lex about 11:30 pm when I heard the standard double whistle blow of a train by passing the station in the other direction. I assumed it was a work train, but it turned out to be a 4 car train of R-42, signed as an M does anyone know why or how it got there?
Yard move from CI via 6th Ave via Culver, or Brighton, or Sea Beach?
Maybe it over-ran Metropolitan ave by several miles, winding up on the Queens line
;-)
It was probably going to Jamaica yard to pick up some R32 cars to bring back to Coney Island for main shop work. Those R42 cars in this case would've been known as "horses".
it was comming from queens heading downtown
Then it dropped the cars off at Jamaica. Sorry if I misread your post.
It could have been routed to 6Av or Bway if the Nassau tracks were temporarily unavailable, and was heading for 6Av to take the Chrystie connector back.
The train was a "school car". T/O training for road operations now occurs on the midnight tour so that's most likely what you saw. They just did'nt change the end sign.
If it was a schoolcar, why didn't the train stop in the station. When schoolcar is on the road, they practice station stops. More than likely, they were just transferring cars back to Jamaica. Last pick I spotted slant 40s on occassion late at night in Queens IND territory for the same reason.
The school car does'nt stop at every station. The "road" could have been behind them so they had to skip some stations to avoid affecting revenue service.
The R42's were not transfering cars. Trust me, it was a school car.
Forgot to mention that I saw a 4 car mix with modified 40/42 at Parsons Blvd. on the F around 1 am tonight. Definitely was a school car. About 4 T/O's in the front and back. No doubt about it.
Well it's highly unusual for a schoolcar to go out with only four cars. I will tell you that a few months back after I brought my train into CIyd for the night( I work the M), I noticed 4 R42 cars taking two R32 cars back to Jamaica. I heard the transmission over the radio. Those two cars were involved in some grating collapse in the 53st tube a couple of yrs ago on the midnight tour. I think one of the cars was 3559. It appears we were both right.
The Acela Express start date..is now December 11th....One round trip
daily....until additional trainsets are accepted.
1) What's the deal with Wilson Ave, was there an interchange with something else there? Is that where the North Shore came on, or no? I think maybe that the Skokie Swift is a remnant of the North Shore, but I forget.
2) When were the express tracks decomissioned south of Armitage I think I remember riding express to nearly the loop in the mid seventies...
3) Was that strange crosstown spur between the blue an green lines ever in regular service?
4) I saw plenty of newly constructed towers, does the CTA keep them manned?
Wilson Ave was the northern terminus of the L. The ramp, and the raised embankment ROW to Howard etc, came after the CRT bought the ROW and business of a Milwaukee Road branch. Thus for nearly fifty years CRT and successor CTA operated freight service to a few sidings along the west side of the embankment. This operation featured catenary supplied electric freight motors and gauntlet track for clearance at platforms.
As to NS, when the two track bottleneck at Wilson was reconfigured the southbound North Shore got a new platform over on the freight ramp.
Skokie, yes the Skokie Swift operates over former NS tracks but in fact CRT briefly ran local service there during North Shore times and vestigial station buildings could be seen in the 60's.
Paulina This is the remnant of the earkier routing of the Milwaukee Ave (Logan Square) route and also saw brief usage during the construction of the Congress(Eisenhour) Expressway. IIRC, "Douglas" went out of the loop on Lake took the ramp to the Paulina line and ran south to their regular route.
All of this is well illustrated in the maps in the CERA Bulletins covering the L
I am young and don't know excatley 100% of the CTA History, but I am a big CTA fan, live in Chicago area, and try to learn as much history as possible. Here is what I know.
1) Wilson Avenue used to be the end of the line when the L was orginally built by a private company a long time ago and was at ground level. It was elevated when it was extended north to Howard Street. There were ground level maintanence facilities in use there for a long time. The CTA just recently abandoned the facilites about 10 years ago. In the last 5 years they had a humoungous fire which destroyed the facility which used to be on the East Side of the Tracks. After the fire the remains were demolished and taken away. Now all that exsists are the old holding tracks for the old terminal and two old embankments. Three tracks only exsist on the main line at Wilson. The 4th South-Bound Purple Line express track was originally a spur that end as a storage track. The CTA extended this track and connected it back to the mainline when they took over. This is why South-Bound Purple Line trains now curve way out West away from the other tracks and then curve back east to connect back with the main line. There is also another old concrete embankment that is just sitting there rotting and abandoned.
The CTA has preliminary plans to rebuild the "Approach" to Wilson & Wilson Station in their 2001-2005 budget. The only station to be rebuilt in the 2001 budget besides the Douglas & Ravenswood projects is Lawrence. Then in the 2001-2005 there are also plans to rebuild Sheridan. These are the two stations north and South of Wilson. After these are completed I'm guessing Wilson will be completely demolished and rebuilt. I would guess that all of the old embankments and tracks will be demolished. In the End a single structure with all four tracks with one-single interlocking and one single Wilson Island Platform between the 2 local inner tracks. This is just my guess, but in my opinion this is the most logical and what the CTA will probably do.
I'm not really sure about where the North-Shore Line came in or the Skokie Swift, but I do know that the Skokie Swift is remains of an old interurban line, which one, I'm not sure.
2) The Express Tracks South of Armitage served an old interurban line. When it was abandoned, they were also. I'm not sure, but I think this was the North-Shore Line. These tracks are completely gone in some sections now though, like over North Avenue. The just add to the shadow the structure casts and look crappy, I think the CTA should tear them down completely.
3) At some point the Cross-Town Spur that passes the United Center was in Service. I know when the Congress ( Now Forest Park) Line was demolished to make way for the Eisenhower Expressway, the Douglas (Now Cermak) Line Connected and used the Lake Street L to get to downtown. The Douglas also had skip-stop service during this brief time. The Congress was relocated to the median and sides of the Eisenhower Expressway and when it was open again the Douglas connected to it and no longer use the Connector. Other then this period, I'm not sure if the Cross-Town Spur was ever used for anything besides train movements. This is the only connection between the Blue Line and the rest of the system.
4) Not sure about the towers.
Hope I helped you a little bit
BJ
> 1) Wilson Avenue used to be the end of the line when the L was
> orginally built by a private company a long time ago and was at
> ground level. It was elevated when it was extended north to Howard
> Street. There were ground level maintanence facilities in use there
> for a long time.
In fact, there was a whole separate surface-level "Lower Wilson" station located at the southwest corner of Wilson and Broadway, opposite the present Wilson station. This was used by Wilson Ave. locals until 1949.
> The 4th South-Bound Purple Line express track was originally a
> spur that end as a storage track. The CTA extended this track and
> connected it back to the mainline when they took over. This is why
> South-Bound Purple Line trains now curve way out West away from the
> other tracks and then curve back east to connect back with the main
> line. There is also another old concrete embankment that is just
> sitting there rotting and abandoned.
The "spur" and the concrete embankment that carried it were actually running tracks, forming the freight connection between CRT/CTA and the Milwaukee Road at Lower Buena Yard. Wire extended south to Irving Park Road. These were used for interchange coal traffic until the 1970s.
> I'm not really sure about where the North-Shore Line came in or the
> Skokie Swift, but I do know that the Skokie Swift is remains of an
> old interurban line, which one, I'm not sure.
The Skokie Swift is the remnant of the North Shore's Skokie Valley Route, opened for interurban service in 1926. The CRT Niles Center line operated over the same trackage now used by the Yellow Line, between Howard and Dempster, from 1925 to 1948. CTA's main shops are located on this line.
The North Shore's Shore Line Route, abandoned in 1955, reached Chicago via the CRT/CTA Evanston line, which it joined just south of Linden station.
> 2) The Express Tracks South of Armitage served an old interurban
> line. When it was abandoned, they were also. I'm not sure, but I
> think this was the North-Shore Line. These tracks are completely
> gone in some sections now though, like over North Avenue. The just
> add to the shadow the structure casts and look crappy, I think the
> CTA should tear them down completely.
The outer express tracks were used by North Shore trains, which I believe were the last service regularly operated over them. Evanston Express trains continued to operate non-stop through this territory until a couple of years ago when Ravenswood local stops were added. However, after the early Sixties Evanston trains used the inner tracks along with the Ravenswood.
> 3) At some point the Cross-Town Spur that passes the United Center
> was in Service. I know when the Congress ( Now Forest Park) Line
> was demolished to make way for the Eisenhower Expressway, the
> Douglas (Now Cermak) Line Connected and used the Lake Street L to
> get to downtown. The Douglas also had skip-stop service during this
> brief time. The Congress was relocated to the median and sides of
> the Eisenhower Expressway and when it was open again the Douglas
> connected to it and no longer use the Connector. Other then this
> period, I'm not sure if the Cross-Town Spur was ever used for
> anything besides train movements. This is the only connection
> between the Blue Line and the rest of the system.
What is now the Paulina Connector was part of the Metropolitan Division, and was in continuous revenue service from 1895 to 1951. The Met left the Loop at its southwest corner, Van Buren and Wells. West of Marshfield station, it split in three directions: the Garfield Park main, heading straight west; the Douglas Park Branch, turning south; and the Logan Square and Humboldt Park Branches, via the present Connector, turning north. At that time there was no through connection between the Douglas Park and Logan Square/Humboldt Park legs.
The line north of the Marshfield junction was taken out of revenue service in February 1951, when the Logan Square route began entering downtown via the Milwaukee Avenue subway and the Humboldt Park branch was reduced to a shuttle (and discontinued altogether a year or so later). The new ramp in the southeast quadrant between the Lake Street "L" and the Connector, and the block or so of new elevated structure linking the Connector with the Douglas Park line, were placed into operation on April 4, 1954, but continued in revenue service only until the opening of the Congress line and its ramp to the Douglas Park Branch on June 22, 1958. The portion of the Paulina structure north of Lake Street was demolished around 1964, leaving only the present non-revenue Connector track between Lake and Harrison Streets.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
3) Was that strange crosstown spur between the blue an green lines ever in regular service?
The elevated line near Paulina St. was once the entry to the Loop for the northwest (Logan Sq. and Humboldt Park) branches of the Metropolitan elevated line, one of the four companies which built elevated lines in Chicago.
The line left the loop at the Southwest corner (Van Buren and Wells), ran one block west along Van Buren, then an S-curve over what is now Wacker Dr. 1/2 block north to a bridge located midway between Van Buren and Jackson. There was also a spur going due east from the bridge to a small, 4 track stub terminal at Wells St. The bridge east to Marshfield junction (roughly one block west of Ashland and 1/2 block south of Van Buren, now in the middle of the Eisenhower Expy.) was a 4-track line. At Marshfield, the line split into three 2-track branches:
1) The Douglas Park branch (existing 54/Cermak branch of the Blue line from that point)
2) The Garfield Park branch (roughly along the Eisenhower Expy. right of way to Laramie, then via the Chicago, Aurora, and Elgin tracks at ground level, also along what is now the expressway ROW, to Forest Park and beyond)
3) The northwest branch, which ran north via the connector you asked about, over the Lake St. L (there was a transfer station, but no track junction), across a bridge which still exists over the approaches to Union Station and the Ogilvie Transportation Center at Kinzie St, and continuing to near where the Blue Line O'Hare branch now emerges from the tunnel under Milwaukee Ave. on its way to O'Hare. There was a branch at this point that followed alongside North Ave. to Humboldt park, and the main line which terminated at Logan Square.
For more info, I'd suggest you check out Chicago "L".org.
-- Ed Sachs
I'll try to respond without repeating information already cited by our Chicago "FAQ Team." As an end terminal for the Northwestern Elevated, Wilson had four stub tracks above and a loop terminal at grade. After 1907, the elevated extended operations with trolley at grade northward, reaching Evanston in 1908, culminating with a terminal in Wilmette at Linden AV in 1912. Photos show that the Linden Yard was third rail operated.
The Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee interurban had two entry points onto the "L". At Linden beginning in 1919 and via the Skokie Valley Route connecting at Howard ST in 1926.
Elevation of the two-track grade operation to the four track embankment presently used was completed by 1922, but still had a three track bottleneck at Wilson that existed until 1959.
The CNS&M abandoned the Shore Line Route through Linden AV in 1955. In 1963 the North Shore ceased all operations and a year later the Skokie Swift was born.
Originally the four track main between Wilson and Chicago had local on the outside, express on the inside with local service via the Wilson-Kenwood line. When the CTA eliminated the Wilson-Kenwood, separated the Ravenswood from the Englewood, and closed many stations south of Wilson, using the manned tower at Armitage, the North Shore trains and the Evanston trains could use the outside track as an express track. Between Armitage and Chicago AVs, Ravenswood trains used outside track because of rail renewal in 1963 and returned to inside tracks in the same year, afterwhich tracks 1 and 4 were no longer needed. They were kept most likely to prevent a train from falling of the structure in the event of an accident.
Rosemont, Howard, Tower 18, and Clark Junction are probably the only 24 hour manned towers. All other towers are equipped for automatic operation during unmanned hours, even some towers that aren't apparent like 95th ST. Its just a booth on the north end of the platform. The new cab signalling in the State ST subway includes new interlocking consoles at 17th ST and at Armitage.
17th ST is said to be a sit down-state of the art that might permit the CTA to add ten minutes to Red Line schedules by rerouting service back across the old subway incline at 13th ST. Residents in $400,000 south loop condos say the Dan Ryan connector subway rattles their dwellings built ontop of the connector.
David Harrison
Hey, thanx for the info!
For those of you who took the exam in January, the final answer keys are available on the DCAS website.
And the website is located at:
www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dcas/html/examkeys.html
In addition, the answers are stored in PDF format, requiring the use of Adobe Acrobat 4.0 to read (I downloaded the free program in 25 minutes).
Today (October 30) a great photo of a yellow inspection car, followed by a train of Redbirds, appears on the nycsubway homepage. What is this vehicle made from? I see what appears to be bus standee windows. Has it been around long? Thanks.
It's an old mack bus body on a TA flatcar (A-Division).
BMTman
Sorry, but it is NOT an old Mack bus body. It is a GM TD4506 or TDH4507.
Here's a summarized report of my trip last week.
10/23 Arrived at my hotel at 7:30 PM, five hours late. Our flight out of Denver was held up due to a fuel leak which needed to be repaired and tested. I did manage to fit in a ride to Penn Station to pick up a NJ Transit timetable, followed by a ride on a 2 (hello, Redbirds) to Tower Records on the Upper West Side. Curiously, this particular train had its marker lights set to white-red on both ends. All 10 cars were 8800-series R-33s. I saw this same train again a few days later. Caught a 3 train heading back to 14th St., which got up to 42 mph on the 7th Ave. straightaway. At one point, I saw another northbound 2 train of low 9000-series R-33s with the same white-red marker light setting.
10/24 Started off on a 5 from Union Square to Bowling Green, where I caught a ferry to Ellis Island. The southbound Worth St. platform was still illuminated with work lights. Once I had returned to the Battery, I just missed a Redbird 4 out of Bowling Green. An R-62 4 took me to Borough Hall; not too particularly fast through the Joralemon St. tunnel. On to the Transit Museum, where I picked up the 2001 calendar along with a token necktie. On the platform, who should I see but BMTman and Sub Bus. We chatted a bit before parting company. I noticed one peculiarity on R-1 100 this time. Specifically, the trigger caps on each corner by the platform were different. The one at the end next to 2204 was more rounded while the cap at the end next to 484 was hex shaped. Also, the R-30 was dark and closed up tight. From the museum, it was back to Manhattan and Herald Square. I wanted to take an F from Jay St. in the hope of getting a glimpse at East Broadway of the space provided for the never-built Worth St. line, but an A train of R-38s (the only one I got all week) arrived first, so I took it to W. 4th St. and transferred to a Q there and had a nice express run to 34th St. I found out the stamp supply store I regularly visited had closed, much to my dismay, and after a quick stop at HMV Records, I took an F train to Lexington Ave. and walked over to the Mets Clubhouse Shop. After picking up a few World Series T shirts, I figured there was enough time for a CPW express jaunt and headed for Columbus Circle. Unfortunately, there wasn't enoughtime to wait for a train of R-38s, so when an A train of R-44s arrived first, I took it. It seemed to move at a fairly decent clip. I switched directions at 145th St. and got another R-44 A train for the southbound trip. South of 59th St. it built up a good head of steam before 42nd St., and sailed past 23rd St. After making a few phone calls, it was time to head out to Shea. I thought I'd go from Union Square to Times Square, and as I got to the platform, there was a train on the express track! It was a rerouted Q train, and the slants cruised past 23rd and 28th Sts. The conductor made a very explicit announcement that this train would resume operation on the Q line past Times Square, even going so far as to say "Lady, if you're not sure if this is your train, it probably isn't". He left his cab shaking his head, and explained there had been a problem at the bridge, causing Q trains to be rerouted through the Montague St. tunnel and up Broadway. At Times Square, I transferred to the 7, but wound at the back end of the train and made it as far as the ninth car before a huge crowd boarded at Grand Central. At Shea Stadium, there was a jumbo screen set up in the parking lot for those of us who were unable to get tickets, and that's where I watched the game. I left after six innings, transferring to an F at Roosevelt Ave., and while there, I walked to the eastern end of the paid fare zone and spotted the ramp which led to the never-used terminal. There was a pair of metal doors which I am told provide access to the corridor to the platform. By this time of night, E and F trains were running local. Past 36th St., I got a glimpse of the new 63rd St. connector. I got off at 14th St. and 6th Ave. and headed back to the hotel.
10/25. Not much subway riding today, just to Penn Station and back. Spent most of the day at my sister's in New Jersey. I got 3 trains both ways, although I could have waited for Redbirds on the 2. Oh well...
10/26. The day of our subway excursion had arrived. After meeting Wayne and Peggy at Penn Station, it was off to Flushing on the 7. At Main St., we examined the renovation work and while taking pics, I was approached by the station agent, who said in no uncertain terms that picture taking is a no-no without credentials. OK, lady, OK. Backtracking one stop to Willets Point, we walked toward Flushing Meadow Park, passing Corona Yard. It was mostly empty, as it was still rush hour. There was the equivalent of one full train - an R-33 single all alone, two R-36s coupled to an R-127, and 8 more R-36s coupled together. I wanted to recreate a 1965 photo my father took during our World's Fair visit, and in no time we found the approximate spot. I posed about where I stood back then, and Wayne did the honors. Heading back to the 7, we noticed Corona Yard was starting to fill. One train was inching its way through the car washer, which I referred to as a birdbath, or "boidbath", as Wayne put it. Back at Willets Point, we caught an express. It got up to 47 mph just before 61st-Woodside, where we got off to catch a local to 33rd-Rawson. Wayne wanted to photograph some newly installed glasswork. We had wandered down towards the eastern end of the station when the next local pulled in, and wound up in the ninth car - the R-33 single. This particular car (did you get the number, Wayne?) had an R-15 fan. After stopping for a camera battery and liquid refreshmant, it was onto 42nd St. for an A ride to 14th St. We were essentially retracing my old Saturday routine. I saw the cemented-over staircase to the lower level at the southern end of the platform, with the hinged lift doors. Once again, it was an A train of R-44s. At 14th St., we transferred to the L, where a train of slants was waiting. The ride through the 14th St. tunnel was quick, and after a 30-year absence, it was nice to go through it again. We got off at Lorimer St., examining the mosaics on both platforms. I noticed the old token booth on the Manhattan-bound side was gone, as was the old iron maiden entrance. From there it was on to Montrose Ave., then Jefferson St., then Bushwick Ave., where we exited and walked to Broadway Junction. Reboarding, we continued to the end of the line at Rockaway Parkway, where we had lunch. Next on the agenda was a Brighton express ride on a Q of slants, and we took the L all the way back to 6th Ave., transferring to an F. I wanted to get a glimpse of the switches south of W. 4th, so we stayed on the F one more stop. Interesting setup. At Broadway-Lafayette, a Q pulled in soon enough, and we were off to Brooklyn once again, this time over the Manhattan Bridge. Unlike last year, when our crush-loaded Q train ran local all the way to Brighton Beach, this time we ran express all the way, passing a D train along the way which we caught at Sheepshead Bay for Stillwell Ave. I took a few photos of the front facade of the terminal, focusing on the BMT Lines signs. It was too early to go to Nathan's since we had just eaten, so from Stillwell Ave., it was back to DeKalb on an N train of R-32s. At 36th St., I said to Wayne and Peggy, "This is where it all began". For it was at this very station that I boarded a subway train for the very first time on July 21, 1965, a similar N of shiny new R-32s. Leaving 36th St., our train built up a good head of steam, reaching 42-43 mph before hitting the timers before 9th St. At DeKalb, we waited for an M to take us to that magnificent ruin of a station, Chambers St. We examined it closely, noting the overall deterioration and recently-begun renovation on the mezzanine. We also peered into the tunnel from the southern end of the southbound platform where it slopes upward. I had hoped to spot the French Connection cars, 4572 and 4573, but without success. From Chambers St., we headed over to Brooklyn Bridge, hoping to catch a Redbird 4 to Woodlawn. While we waited, I spotted the tiled column from Chambers St. just inside the tunnel entrance. As luck would have it, the first 4 train to pull in was a Redbird 4. At Union Square, we saw a southbound 5 with a red-green marker light setting. Because of delays, oops - congestion, we crawled up the Park Ave. straightaway. We stayed on the 4 to Bedford Park Blvd., as Wayne had to head on back to Penn Station to catch a 7:30 train home. From there, it was back to 161st St. on an R-62 4, then to 125th St. on a D, and finally yet another R-44 A to 34th St., where I bid farewell to Wayne and Peggy. Hopefully next year, we'll be able to continue this vein. I fit in another trip to Tower records that evening, on a Redbird 2 uptown and an R-62A 3 downtown. This 3 train was all business, reaching 47 mph at 50th St. and a rousing 44 at 18th St. The best part was right at the end. I watched the train leave after getting off at 14th St., and the last car was none other than 1956. Finally!! We saw 1957 earlier that same morning. Other R-62A numbers I saw (not in the same train) were 1962, 1963, 1972, 1973, 1979, 1985, 1989, and 1995.
10/27 Not much this morning. Took an F to Lexington Ave. for another visit to the Mets Clubhose Shop, and from 57th St. an R to Times Square and a 2 to 14th St. The trackwork on the southbound express track along that straightaway is excellent. Both the Redbirds and R-62As run smooth as silk. After checking out of my hotel, it was on to Connecticut for UConn's Homecoming weekend.
I must say it was unusual to see more than one Redbird train with marker lights other than red-red.
What a nice report, I am glad you enjoyed your visit.
Peace,
ANDEE
Put it this way: I feel as though I never left the East Coast whenever I come back. I've always felt comfortable in the Big Apple, and last week was no exception. It was good to be back.
I am surprised that you were not able to squeeze in a trip on the J to Jamaica Center!
There's always next year.:-) I took a J train out to Parsons-Archer ten years ago. Haven't been on the Jamaica Ave. portion since then, although we did ride on the Broadway segment to Broadway Junction on a J last year.
Hi folks! Just wondering if any of you bought my Yankee and Shea
baseball shirts with the B,D,4 (Major League Baseball just used the 4!)for Yankee Stadium and the 7 for Shea? THey showed them in the
NY Times last weekend!
Hi,
Did these shirts have subway graphics on them? I tried to get as many subway type shirts as I could. I may have missed this one, as I missed several. Each time I found one I needed, another would pop up on somebody.
No too many newspapers offered T shirts, but the Westchester News Journal had a real neat one, still available.
Joe C
Mine have the B,D, &4 with 161 Street - Yankee Stadium under it,
and the other the 7 with Willets Point - Shea Stadium under it.
They were on White w. Blk 3/4 sleeves, or Gray w Blk 3/4 sleeve
"baseball shirts!"
Was in Modells last night, no lines & lots of different shirts, one was discounted to $10. Also got a "Subway Series" hat, say graphics as the posters in the subways & on the back of buses.
My granson wore his Jeeter/Piazza one to bed. "Don't you want to save it so you can ware it to school & show your friends", "Nope". At that point his grandma complained "I didn't buy it so you can ware it as pajamas". We also bought his mom a similar one, which she also put right on. Another little story ... a woman came up to the cash register complaining that they charged here $29.99 for a $19.99 Yankee sweat shirt. I showed her my $10 shirt, she said she didn't like it because it had Mets on it. Gee wizz you can get a Yankee shirt any time, but a Yankee/Mets Subway Series ... what was she thinking ?
Mr t__:^)
Oh one my little story ... my wife doesn't care much for subways to say the least ... but last night all the shirts we bought had to have subways on them ... I was smiling a lot !
Mr t__:^)
Yes, Thurston, it's a great time to add to your subway shirt collection! I added 2 sweatshirts and 4 tee-shirts myself. Sportswon on 5th Ave between 42 & 43 sts (they're only there one week or so) had a great supply of them, some discounted to 10, also.
If you wanted a Mets NLCS champions tee-shirt, it was yours for $3.00.
(They weren't selling ;)
--Mark
Hi all,
A while ago, NYS Department of Motor Vehicles asked for my permission to use one of my NYC Subway maps for Ads of their new "Subway Series" custom license plates. I was told it was printed in NY Post as a Ad today 10/30, can anyone confirm it? and I would like someone to mail me the ad. Let me know, thanks in advance.
Mike the Mailman
Denver, ColorFUL Colorado!
adler1969@aol.com
Hi again,
I failed to mention that the ad is located on Page 120 of the NY Post (10/30)
Mike the Mailman
Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
adler1969@aol.com
Here is a press release talking about the Subway Series plates.
That's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the Ad itself on Page 120 on NY Post, I want to know if my map was used in that Ad, and want to know if anyone can mail me that ad.
Thanks.
Mike the Mailman in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
adler1969@aol.com
Did anyone out there catch "Explorer" on CNBC last night? It was about the severe rat problem facing New York. I wasn't aware there was a serious rodent problem until I viewed that, though some neighborhoods have been plagued. They showed sketches of the streets, then below to the subways, below that to the railroads, then to the sewers, and how those little varmints can scatter through those little passageways from one end of the city to another. And boy do they multiply----in three months they can reproduce, and the males are still trying to make it with even dead females. Quite a species. I have to admit I was fascinated. They are dissgusting creatures, but I am intrigued by them. I still remember one going by me on a platform in New York one evening making like I wasn't even there. Is there any wayto alleviate this health threat? It seems that there is a big potential problem facing the city. I'd appreciate any imput you guys can give me on that. It sure caught my attention.
Rats may be disgusting, but they are damn smart. Don't under estimate them. I just hope they don't learn to swim or use EZPass and infest New Jersey.
I just hope they don't learn to swim or use EZPass and infest New Jersey.
Afraid they'll outwit New Jerseyans?
Who needs EZ-Pass when there's PATH? We've heard on this board multiple sightings of pigeons riding the subway in an apparently conscious manner -- standing on the edge of the platform, getting on the next train, and then getting off several stations later. Why not rats?
Next thing you know, they'll be buying Metrocards and even swiping them at the turnstiles.:-)
Rats and Roaches can survive NUCLEAR ANNIHALATION. Cats wouldn't work, even lions would be eaten by the rats. Poison,? Bacteria? They'd develop immunity., Radiation won't kill 'em all, the dead ones just provide food for the survivors. After mankind kills itself thru environmental debauchment, the humble rat will assume it's place atop the food chain.
Rats are the most primitive and earliest mammal creature.
All modern mammals except for the platypus (which lays eggs) are descended from a primitive rodent.
I would perscribe FIRE and lots of it!
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
The rats are amazing creatures. They can live almost anywhere. I once saw a rat on the tracks at the 103rd St. station on the IRT Lexington Ave. line back in 1993 and there was the remains a dead rat right on the trackbed. They seem to be oblivious to almost everything. I guess using poison bait may help to alleviate the rat problem. Cleaning trash out of the subway will also be a help in reducing the number of rats that live in the tunnels.
BMTJeff
Yeah. Control the disgusting creatures who feed them.
-Hank
Why dosen't the city take a cue from frontier towns and offer a bounty for each dead rat (the head will be what counts) on the order of like 25 cents. By harnessing popular enthusiasim this method has driven countless species to the brink of extinction. It should be fairly effective against even rats.
It never ceases to amaze me that, when you give a rat a bushy tail and call it a squrill(SP) everyone thinks it's cute. Go figure.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't, I hate squirrles because they are lousey frauds. All the squirrles we have on campus are fat and lazy and all they do is beg for food. We should always remind others that they are really rats in dsguise by refering to them as Tree Rats. Furthermore chipmunks are striped rats, rabbits are hopping rats and pigeons are feathered rats. Here is a picture of one of our fat, lazy squirrles I trapped in my dorm room when it came in looking for food last year. He jumped on my head twice!
He jumped on my head twice!
He probably thought it was a nest!
I had just gotten my hair cut so ha.
I had one jump on my arm in Union Square yesterday. It almost ripped my jacket with its filthy talons.* That place is swarming. They need to bring in a whole army of exterminators there at night and put an end to that crap. It should be the next step in the revival of East 14TH Street.
*Correct Usage
>>> Why dosen't the city take a cue from frontier towns and offer a bounty for each dead rat (the head will be what counts) on the order of like 25 cents. <<<
Because some people who think exploiting the loopholes in a system is morally proper would start breeding rats for the bounty.
Tom
I doubt 25 cents per rat would equal the cost of keeping and feeding them. If you fed them scraps and other compostables the city could chalk it up under a recycling programme.
Boy I can see it now. Homeless people carrying a big black trashbag filled with 25 cent rats instead of 5 cent cans. I hate it when their cans leak all over the place, could you even imagine the former?
Can you say U-Haul? I know I would.
Rodents are VERY prolific species.
Years ago I had a hamster, and read up on the things. If you allow one male and one female to start breeding on January 1st, by June 30th (six months) there is a possibility that you could have up to 17,500 offspring with them all breeding over and over!
Rodents have one of the shortest gestation periods. I think the hamsters, it was 16 days -- and after producing a litter, four days later, the female goes into heat again.
I wonder if there is a solution to it all -- shooting the things could be dangerous. Poisoning possible food sources could also be dangerous.
All rodents multiply rapidly, mostly due to the many natural predators they have. I wonder if snakes could adapt in the subway.:-)
Back in the summer of 1970, there were ads and commercials with the slogan, "Starve a rat today". They brought home the importance of stowing garbage in a metal garbage can and keeping the lid on.
8AVEXP: Those babies are big and they don't even pay attention to us. If they start coming out during the day, there could be a lot of trouble in the big city.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
The rats are amazing creatures. They can live almost anywhere. I once saw a rat on the tracks at the 103rd St. station on the
IRT Lexington Ave. line back in 1993 and there was the remains a dead rat right on the trackbed. They seem to be oblivious to
almost everything. I guess using poison bait may help to alleviate the rat problem. Cleaning trash out of the subway will also be
a help in reducing the number of rats that live in the tunnels.
BMTJeff
P.S. This is a repeat of the message I posted on Oct. 30th. In another posting I found out that back in 1970 there was a slogan "Starve a Rat Today" stressing the importance of keep garbage can lids closed tightly to help discourage rats. If people would quit tossing trash onto the tracks or anywhere for that matter except in to proper receptacles this may help to reduce the rat population altogether. The message is clear. If you don't want to see rats dispose of your trash properly.
BMTJeff
Well, I guess I can top on this one - how about a rat chasing and killing a mouse? It happens - and a crowd of astonished passengers on the platform (it was noisy affair), including your truly, witnessed the whole thing. We definitely could use help here.
turnstiles:
Even the mice aren't safe from the rats but, who likes mice anyway. I do agree with you that help is needed to control all forms of vermin.
BMTJeff
Let's pray that they continue to not pay attention to us! :)
Don't worry as long as we keep feeding them, they won't bother us. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
SUBWAYSURF:
It we stop feeding them there will be fewer rats to bother us.
BMTJeff
SUBWAYSURF:
If we stop feeding them there will be fewer rats to bother us.
BMTJeff
Oh boy, what a nightmare LIRR ride home tonight. The 7:19 Portwashington. First of all, they should NEVER EVER run an 8 car train on a normally packed 10 car run. It was so crowded, it was worse than the F train at rush hour. Then, some punks in my car try to start something with some tired commuters, but they were put in their place. Then, some poor girl throws up all over people's shoes about a foot away. Next, everytime the C/R used the intercom, it made a painfully loud buzz.
At least they didn't collect the tickets.
Surprisingly, they try that crap with Ronkonkoma trains sometimes. I remember one Saturday last year during the Christmas season I got on an eight car train. My stop is the fourth on the line and I didn't get a seat. The headway is one hour. Ronkonkoma is the busiest branch in my opinion.
Why in the WORLD would LIRR have hourly service on ANY of the outer lines? Even Caltrain has 30-minute service - that's New York, they're supposed to have better transit then the west coast! I don't think so....
CalTrain has only one line. You cannot compare them to the LIRR. The LIRR lines with hourly service usually have more than ample seating available. However, holidays like Thanksgiving and Christmas need more service.
The LIRR is an absolute madhouse on these two holidays. There isn't anyone alive who would dispute this statement.
The LIRR is an absolute madhouse on these two holidays. There isn't anyone alive who would dispute this statement.
Most stiffs would agree too.
If you have the proper amount of cars there should be enough seating with the 1 hr headway. Ronkonkoma trains should have 10-12 cars at all times.
First of all, they should NEVER EVER run an 8 car train on a normally packed 10 car run.
What do you want to them to do when short 2 cars? Cancel the entire train?. Metro-North has an occasional short train also. Because the MU's are 2 or 3 cars sets, they are sometime short 1 car and sometimes 2 cars. I would rather be short some cars than have them cancel the train. The next one would be worse !!!
On the LIRR, short trains show up more than occassionally.
Here in DC, there was always at least one 4 car train on the red line during morning rush every day. I got it once and it was crazy! At least LIRR has the cars.
Gee, now all of you ask youself this question.....do you think cattle can be shipped to the markets this way? of course not...because the animals right group would be there front and center...yet the "poor LIRR Dans" have one looking after them and saying that this is not the way for commuters to be treated....hence..again..there is NO accountablity on the LIRR...there never has been..and there never will be....why must commuter constantly travel in dirty cars all the time...where is the damn HEALTH DEPT.......it is against the law NYC to leave garbage in front of any business establishment, but it is OK for commuter it sit next to someone's half -eaten sandwichs and beer cans. Maybe if they had designed those MUs with trash containers like they have on NJTransit trains, then commuters could put their trash somewhere instead of the floor or seats.
I heard that long-time NYCT Museum director Malcolm Martin was given a fairwell party last Friday at the Brooklyn Marriott Hotel (down the street from the TA Museum).
How long was he will the museum and does anyone know who'll be replacing him?
BMTman